(navigation image)
Home American Libraries | Canadian Libraries | Universal Library | Community Texts | Project Gutenberg | Children's Library | Biodiversity Heritage Library | Additional Collections
Search: Advanced Search
Anonymous User (login or join us)
Upload
See other formats

Full text of "The southern California district of the Communist Party, structure, objectives [and] leadership. Hearings"

5 00-0^*79/ 



HARVARD COLLEGE 
LIBRARY 




GIFT OF THE 

GOVERNMENT 
OF THE UNITED STATES 



us 1^^-- 
THE SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA DISTRICT 

OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY 
Structure — Objectives — Leadership 



HEARINGS 



BEFORE THE 



COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 
HOUSE OE fiEPRESENTATIYES 



EIGHTY-FIFTH CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 



PART 2 

SEPTEMBER 4 AND 5, 1958 



Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities 



(Index ill Part 3) 



HARVARD COLLEGE LIBRARY 

DEPOSITED BY THE 
U^JiTED s'aTES government 

MAY 1L- 1959 




UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING <3F1' ICK 
3 2rv3 WASHINGTON : inr)}» 



COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 

United States House of Representatives 

FRANCIS E. WALTER, Peiuisylvania, Chairman 
MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York • 

CLYDE DOYLE, California DONALD L. JACKSON, California 

EDWIN E. WILLIS, Louisiana GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio 

WILLIAM M. TUCK, Virginia ROBERT J. McINTOSH, Michigan i 

Richard Arens, Staff Director 

J Congressmen William E. Miller of New York and August E. Johansen of Michigan were appointed 
members of the committee by the 86th Congress, replacing Mr. Kearney and Mr. Mcintosh. 



CONTENTS 



PART 1 



September 2, 1958: Testimony of — Page 

Dorothy Ray Healey 18 

Afternoon session: 

Dorothy Ray Healey (resumed) 49 

Statements of Loren Miller and Al Wirin (attorneys for Don 

Wheeldin) 54 

Mary Lois Newman 55 

David Francis Arkin 58 

Thomas D. Creed 63 

Horace V. Alexander 68 

September 3, 1958: Testimony of — 

Cyril Valentine Briggs 75 

Alexander Ende 82 

Herbert Biskar 84 

Marvin Biskar 90 

Sophie Kishner 93 

Joseph Solomon 96 

Stella Choyke Biber 99 

Afternoon session: 

Joseph I. Gavron 102 

Esther Goldie Sokolow 110 

Sakae Ishihara 114 

Bernard Burton - 118 

PART 2 

September 4, 1958: Testimony of — 

Harriet Blair J 137 

Lorris Gosman 140 

Jane Swanhuyser 142 

Julius Kovner 144 

Bertha Marshall 148 

EUie Henrickson 152 

Fay Kovner Mukes 159 

Rosemary Lusher 162 

Afternoon session: 

Rosemay Lusher (resumed) 168 

Reva Mucha Zvi^olinski 180 

Leon Pape 187 

Edith Weiner Pape 192 

Naomi Claire Blair 196 

Sophie Silver 201 

Jessie Josephson 203 

Archibald MacNair, Jr 205 

Charles H. Mosley, Jr 207 

FeUx Padilla 209 

EH Katz 210 

September 5, 1958: Testimony of — 

William A. Wheeler 213 

Jerry Atinsky 214 

Margarete Ann Byler 218 

Elizabeth Ricardo Jackson 220 

Ola Ross Pacifico 222 

Henry Sazer 224 

Vivian VaUens 227 

in 



IV CONTENTS 

September 5, 1958: Testimony of — Continued Page 

Leo Baef sky 230 

Estelle Parness 232 

Irving Sarnoff _ _ _ _ 233 

William W. Talbot 235 

PART 3 

February 24, 1959: Testimony of — 

Charlene Mitchell 237 

Seymour D. Brodsky 254 

Admiral George Dawson 255 

Eleanor Smith 258 

Clarence George Young 260 

Afternoon session: 

Helen Blair 263 

Ethel Biskar 267 

Edward M. Enfiajian 270 

August Maymudes 273 

Shiflfra Goldman 274 

February 25, 1959: Testimony of — 

Matilda Molina Tolly 279 

Mark Robinson 282 

Delfino Varela 284 

Ben Karr 288 

Afternoon session: 

Sophie Siminoski 290 

Harry Hunt 293 

Arthur Brown 296 

Robert Klonsky 301 

Philip Rafalow 304 

Solomon Monroy 306 

Index i 



Public Law 601, 79th Congress 

The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American 
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress [1946], chapter 
753, 2d session, which provides: 

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States 
of America in Congress assembled, * * * 

PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

Rule X 

SEC. 121. STANDING COMMITTEES 
4c ^: H< :): ^ :): ;): 

18. Committee on Un- American Activities, to consist of nine Members. 

Rule XI 

POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES 
******* 

(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities. 

(A) Un-American activities. 

(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit- 
tee, is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent, 
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, 
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa- 
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks 
the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and 
(iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any necessary 
remedial legislation. 

The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the 
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi- 
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable. 

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American 
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such 
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, 
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance 
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and 
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under 
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any 
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person 
designated by any such chairman or member. 

Rule XII 

LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT BY STANDING COMMITTEES 

Sec 136. To assist the Congress in appraising the administration of the laws 
and in developing such amendments or related legislation as it may deem neces- 
sary, each standing committee of the Senate and the House of Representatives 
shall exercise continuous watchfulness of the execution by the administrative 
agencies concerned of any laws, the subject matter of which is within the jurisdic- 
tion of such committee; and, for that purpose, shall study all pertinent reports 
and data submitted to the Congress by the agencies in the executive branch of 
the Government. 

V 



RULES ADOPTED BY THE 85TH CONGRESS 

House Resolution 5, January 3, 1957 

***** 

Rule X 

STANDING COMMITTEES 



1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Con- 

******* 
(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine Members. 



Rule XI 

POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES 

******* 

18. Committee on Un-American Activities. 

(a) Un-American activities. 

(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee, 
is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (1) the extent, char- 
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, 
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American prop- 
aganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and 
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu- 
tion, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress 
in any necessary remedial legislation. 

The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the 
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi- 
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable. 

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American 
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times 
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has 
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance 
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and 
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under 
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any 
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person 
designated by any such chairman or member. 

******* 

26. To assist the House in appraising the administration of the laws and in 
developing such amendments or related legislation as it may deem necessary, 
each standing committee of the House shall exercise continuous watchfulness 
of the execution by the administrative agencies concerned of any laws, the subject 
matter of which is within the jurisdiction of such committee; and, for that 
purpose, shall study all pertinent reports and data submitted to the House by 
the agencies in the executive branch of the Government. 



THE SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA DISTRICT OF THE 
COMMUNIST PARTY 

Structure — Objectives — Leadership 
(Part 2) 



THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 4, 1958 

United States House of Representatives, 

Subcommittee of the 
CoMMiiTEE ON Un-American Activities, 

Los Angeles^ Calif. 
executive session ^ 

The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities 
met, pursuant to recess, at 9 : 45 a.m., in room 229, Federal Building, 
Los Angeles, Calif., Hon. Francis E. Walter (chairman) presiding. 

Committee members present : Representatives Francis E. Walter, of 
Pennsylvania, and Morgan M. Moulder, of Missouri. 

Start' members present : Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel, and Wil- 
liam A. Wheeler, investigator. 

The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand? Do you swear 
the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mrs. Blair. I do. 

TESTIMONY OP HARRIET BLAIR, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

ELMO VICKERS 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your nam^e, please ? 

Mrs. Blair. Harriet Blair. 

Mr. Tavenner, Will counsel accompanying the witness please 
identify himself for the record ? 

Mr. ViCKERS. I am Elmo Vickers. Do you want my office ad- 
dress, too? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 

Mr. Vickers. 3409 West Beverly Boulevard, Montebello, Calif. 
The telephone number is Parkview 88-8184. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is Blair your married name or your maiden name ? 

Mrs. Blair. My married name. 



1 Released by the committee and ordered to be printed. 

The executive testimony herewith released formed part of the background information 
on which is based the "Report on the Southern California District of the Communist 
Party : Structure — Objectives — Leadership," H. Rept. No. 259, released by the Committee 
on Un-American Activities on Apr. 3, 1959. 

137 



138 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mr. Tavenner. AVliat was your maiden name? 

Mrs. Blaik. Harriet Lewis. 

Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell Lewis ? 

Mrs. Blair. L-e-w-i-s. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, please ? 

Mrs. Blair. In New York City, January 12, 1915. 

Mr. Ta\^nner. What is your occupation ? 

Mrs. Blair. I am a housewife. 

Mr. Tavenner. "VVlien did you first come to California to make it 
the place of your permanent residence ? 

Mrs. Blair. Approximately in May 1944. 

Mr. Ta-^^nner. Were you formerly a member of the Communist 
Party of the Southern District of California? 

Mrs. Blair. The only way I can answer that question is by the first 
amendment which gives everyone the right to associate with whom 
they choose, and the fifth amendment, that portion of the fifth amend- 
ment which is intended to protect the innocent and permit people 
to refuse to answer questions of this kind because the answer of such 
a question will tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Then do we understand with that, that you decline 
to answer that question ? 

Mrs. Blair. I decline to answer that question. 

Mr. Tavenner. The investigation made by the committee up to the 
present time discloses that you were a delegate to the Southern Cali- 
fornia District convention of the Communist Party which met here 
in Los Angeles on April 13 and 14 of 1957. Is this information 
correct ? 

Mrs. Blair. For that question I have the same answer as previously 
stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. I haven't asked you your address. What is your 
address ? 

Mrs. Blair. 2114 Cowlin Street, Los Angeles, 

Mr. Tavenner. That is within the Los Angeles ai-ea of the Com- 
munist Party ; is it not ? 

Mrs. Blair. For that question I have the same answer as previously 
stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. The committee has received information indicating 
the resignation of a number of members of the Communist Party after 
the difficulty arose in the National Convention of the Communist 
Party and the National Committee meetings relating to the Hungarian 
question and the execution of Nagy. Were you one of those who 
resigned ? 

Mrs. Blair. Same answer. 

Mr. Ta^tenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mrs. Blair. Same answer. 

Mr. Taatenner. Have you received a Communist Party assignment 
to be active within the Independent Progressive Party of California ? 

Mrs. Blair. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you not, in fact, chairman of the East Los 
Angeles Club of the Independent Progressive Party ? 

Mrs. Blair. Same answer. 

Mr. TA^^RNNER. Were you not actually the director in 1954 of the 
Independent Progressive Party's campaign for the 19th Congressional 
District in Los Angeles ? 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 139 

Mrs. Blaer. I decline to answer that question for the reasons al- 
ready stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you not also a member of the State Central 
Committee of the Independent Progressive Party in 1954 ? 

Mrs. Blair. Same answer as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party iii 
1954? 

Mrs. Blair. I refuse to answer that question, too, for the reasons 
already given. 

Mr. Tavenner. The committee is informed that at the April 13 and 
14 meeting of the Communist Party for the Southern District of 
California Dorothy Healey made a report in which she emphasized 
the importance of party work in mass organization, in which at that 
time she is said to have made this statement : 

"So we start by trying to unite the members" — that is members of 
mass organization — "on issues already projected by their own organ- 
izations, and continue by finding the way to unite that organization 
and its members with others." 

Did that represent the objective of the Communist Party in April 
of 1957? 

(The witness confers with her comisel.) 

Mrs. Blair. I refuse to answer that question for the reasons al- 
ready stated and because I don't believe you really want my opinion 
about anything. 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, I do not want your opinion but I want facts 
insofar as you are familiar with them. I want to ask you if you car- 
ried out that program of the Communist Party and whether you are 
doing it now. 

Mrs. Blair. I refuse to answer this question on the grounds al- 
ready stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. What other mass organizations are you a member 
of? 

Mrs. Blair. I refuse to answer this question for the grounds al- 
ready stated, the first and the fifth amendments. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you received Communist Party instructions 
to become active in the Parent Teachers Association ? 

Mrs. Blair. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you active in the Parent Teachers Associa- 
tion? 

Mrs. Blair. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you received Communist Party instructions 
to be active in the Girl Scout organization ? 

Mrs. Blair. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you active in such an organization ? 

Mrs. Blair. I decline to answer for the same reason already stated. 

The Chairman. Is she a member of the Girl Scouts, Mr. Tavenner? 

Mr. Tavenner. I do not know, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Are you a member of the Girl Scouts ? 

Mrs. Blair. I decline to answer that question. 

The Chairman. On the gromids that it might incriminate you? 

Mrs. Blair. Correct. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. The witness is excused. 



140 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mrs. Blair. Thank you. 

The Chairman. Call your next witness. 

Will you raise your right hand, please? Do you swear the testi- 
mony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. GosMAN. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF LORRIS GOSMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

JACK TENNER 

Mr. Tenner. I would like to express my thanks to Mr. Wheeler of 
the committee for taking my client as promptly as you did this morn- 
ing. I just had some minor surgery. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please, sir ? 

Mr. GosMAN. Lorris Gosman. 

Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell your name? 

Mr. GosMAN. L-o-r-r-i-s G-o-s-m-a-n. 

Mr, Tavenner. Are you also known by the name of Lloyd ? 

Mr. GosMAN. Lloyd ? 

Mr. Ta\'enner. Yes. 

Mr. GosMAN. No. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden- 
tify himself for the record ? 

Mr. Tenner. Jack Tenner, T-e-n-n-e-r. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Gosman, where do you reside? 

Mr. Gosman. Los Angeles. 

Mr. Tavenner. At what address ? 

Mr. Gosman. 4039 Camero. 

]Mr. Tavenner. Please state when and where you were born. 

Mr. Gosman. New York City, Januai-y 16, 1913. 

Mr. Tamsnner. What is your occupation ? 

Mr. Gosman. I am self-employed. Salesman. 

Mr. Ta\tnner. Have you had any other occupation within the past 
7 or 8 years ? 

Mr. Gosman. I have worked 

Mr. Ta\tnner. Let us say since 1950 ? 

Mr. Gosman. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you please state it ? 

Mr. Gosman. I was manager of a grocery market. 

Mr. Tavenner. Up until what period of time ? 

Mr. Gosman. Around 1952. Somewhere around there. I don't 
recall exactly. 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you first come to California to make it the 
place of your permanent residence ? 

Mr. Gosman. January of 1948. 

Mr, Tavenner. Will you state briefly your formal educational 
training ? 

Mr. Gosman. High school graduate ; 2 years of college. 

Mr. Taatsnner. IMr. Gosman, in the course of the present investiga- 
tion that tlie committee is making, tlie committee is informed that you 
were a delegate to a convention oi the Los Angeles County Communist 
Party held in Los Angeles on January 5 and 6, 1957. Is this correct ? 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 141 

Mr. GosMAN. I will decline to answer that, Mr. Tavenner, on the 
grounds of the first and fifth amendments of the Constitution of the 
United States. 

Mr, Tavenner. The committee information also is that there was 
a district convention of the Communist Party of Southern California, 
that is, the Southern District of California, lield in Los Angeles on 
April 13 and 14, 1957, which was attended by you. 

Mr. GosMAN. I will decline to answer that on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. At the meeting just referred to a report was made 
by Dorothy Healey in which she explained the duty devolving upon 
Communist Party members in her district to take part in the activities 
of various mass organizations. Will you state, please, whether or not 
you have been engaged in Communist Party activities within mass 
organizations at the direction of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Gosman. I will decline to answer that on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been active in the work of the Inde- 
pendent Progressive Party in this area at the direction of the Com- 
munist Party ? 

Mr. GosMAN. I will decline to answer that on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been or were you active at the instance 
of the Communist Party in the work of the Citizens Committee to 
Secure Justice for the Rosenbergs ? 

Mr. GosMAN. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you also active in behalf of the Communist 
Party, and at its suggestion, in the American Peace Crusade ? 

Mr. GosMAN. I will decline to answer that on the same grounds. 
I also object to the "also," Mr. Tavenner. Those are your words. 
They are not mine. 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, they are my words. 

Mr. Gosman. You are implying that I was. That is your implica- 
tion, not mine. 

Mr. Tavenner, Yes. 

I offer in evidence a thermof ax copy of an excerpt from the January 
17, 1952, issue of Daily People's World and ask that it be marked 
"Gosman Exhibit No. 1." 

The Chairman. It will be made a part of the record. 

(Document marked "Gosman Exhibit No. 1" and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Tenner. May I have the date of that exhibit? 

Mr. Tavenner. January 17, 1952. 

I refer to an article entitled, "Meeting To Spur Peace Pact Drive." 
It reads as follows : 

A meeting to support a campaign around the worldwide petitions for a five- 
power peace pact will be held at 8 :15 p.m. Friday at the home of Mr. and Mrs. 
Lorris Gosman, 1278 North Kingsley Drive. The meeting will be jointly 
sponsored by a group of citizens in the 24th Congressional District and by the 
American Peace Crusade. 

Does not that article describe your participation in the work of 
the Peace Crusade? 

(The witness confers with his counsel.) 

Mr. Gosman. I will decline to answer that, Mr. Tavenner, on the 
same grounds. 



142 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mr. Tavenner. During the same year were you assigned to the 
East Hollywood Club of the 24th Congressional District, 56th As- 
sembly District of the Independent Progressive Party? 

Mr. Tenner. What would be the date of that ? 

Mr. Tavenner. 1952. 

Mr. Tenner. Thank you, sir. 

Mr. GosMAN. I decline to answer that on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you solicited by anyone to become a signer 
of a letter of resignation addressed to the National Committee of the 
Communist Party in the spring of 1958 ? 

Mr. GosMAN. May I confer with my attorney on this? 

(The witness confers with his counsel.) 

Mr. GosMAN. I decline to answer that on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. GosMAN. I decline on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Were you a member of the Independent Progres- 
sive Party? 

(The witness confers with his counsel. ) 

Mr. GosMAN. I will decline to answer that. Same grounds. 

The Chairman. All right. Any further questions? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir. 

The Chairman. The witness is excused. 

Will you raise your right hand, please? Do you swear the testi- 
mony you are obout to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mrs. Swanhuyser. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF JANE SWANHUYSER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

MORTIMER VOGEI 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please 
identify himself for the record? 

Mr. VoGEL. Mortimer Vogel ; Hollywood. 

Mr. Ta\^nner. Is Jane Swanhuyser your maiden name or your 
married name? 

Mrs. Swanhuyser. My married name. ** 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat was your maiden name ? 

(The witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Swanhuyser. Garrett. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you reside ? 

Mrs. Swanhuyser. I declme to answer that on the grounds that it 
is not pertinent, IMr. Tavenner, and the amendments to the Consti- 
tution. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a resident of Reseda, Calif. ? 

Mrs. Swanhuyser. Same answer, sir. 

The Chairman. I direct you to answer the question. Certainly we 
have a right to identify witnesses. 

Mrs, Swanhuyser. Yes, I reside in Reseda, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your occupation ? 

Mrs. Swanhuyser. I am a housewife. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you have any other occupation ? 

Mrs. Swanhuyser. Occasionally I have been employed, but I am 
a housewife. 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 143 

Mr. Tavenner. What is the general nature of the employment? 

Mrs. SwANHUYSER. I do market research. 

Mr. Tavenner. For any State or Federal Government agency? 

(The witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Swanhutser, No, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state briefly what your formal educational 
training has been? 

Mrs. SwANHUYSER. I graduated from high school and I have had 
some college training. I am not a college graduate. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you please state the date and place of your 
birth? 

Mrs. Swanhutser. I was bom in St. Paul, Mimi. 

Mr. Tavenner. I did not get the name. 

Mrs. SwANHUYSER. St. Paul, Minn., on January 25, 1913. 

Mr. Tavenner. "Wlien did you first come to California with the view 
to making it your place of residence? 

Mrs. SwANHUYSER. 1941, 1 think, about July. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you lived in California constantly since that 
time ? 

Mrs. SwANHUYSER. I have. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a delegate to the California State con- 
vention of the Communist Party held on January 19 and 20, 1957? 

Mrs. SwANHUYSER. I decline to answer that question, sir, on the 
grounds of the Constitution and the amendments thereto. 

Mr. Ta^^nner. Were you a delegate to the Los Angeles County 
convention held January 5 and 6, 1957? 

Mrs. SwANHUYSER. Same answer, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether or not at that convention 
authority was given to divide the State of California into two dis- 
tricts, that of the Southern District of California and the Northern 
District of California? 

Mrs. SwANHUYSER. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you, in 1943, a member of the Van Nuys Club 
of the Communist Party ? 

Mrs. SwANHUYSER. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you serve as executive secretary of that club? 

Mrs. SwANHUYSER. Same answer, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. In 1951 were you an organizer for the Western 
Division of the Communist Party in California ? 

Mrs. SwANHUYSER. Same answer, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. It is the committee's information that you have 
presently withdrawn from the Communist Party, that you are not 
now a member. So I want to ask you : Are you a member of the Com- 
munist Party at this time ? 

Mrs. SwANHUYSER. Same answer. 

The Chairman. Is the information that the committee has, that you 
are not a member of the Communist Party, correct ? 

Mrs. SwANHUYSER. Same answer. 

Mr. Moulder. Were you a member of any organization which advo- 
cates the overthrow of our present form of government by force and 
violence ? 

Mrs. SwANHUYSER. Same answer. 



144 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I desire to offer in evidence a ther- 
mof ax copy of an excerpt from the March 25, 1949, issue of the Daily 
People's World, entitled "Meet One of the L.A. 17, Jane Swanhuyser, 
Marxist, mother, American," and ask that it be marked "Swanhuyser 
Exhibit No. 1." 

The Chairman. Mark it and make it a part of the record. 

(Document marked "Swanhuyser Exhibit No. 1" and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine the article and state whether or 
not the photograph contained within the article is your likeness ? 

Mrs. Swanhuyser. I decline to answer that on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you the Jane Swanhuyser referred to in that 
article ? 

Mrs. Swanhuyser. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. The witness is excused. 

Will you raise your right hand, please. Do you swear the testimony 
you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. KovNER. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF JULIUS KOVNER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
MORTIMER VOGEL 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please, sir? 

Mr. KovNER. Julius Kovner. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please 
identify himself for the record ? 

Mr. VoGEL. Mortimer Vogel ; Hollywood. 

Mr. Tavener. Where do you live, Mr. Kovner ? 

Mr. Kovner. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of 
the Constitution and the Bill of Eights and the protection I am af- 
forded thereby. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is your correct address -1253 Fulton Avenue, Van 
Nuys, Calif.? 

Mr. Kovner. I have declined to answer that question on the same 
grounds. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Kovner. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of the 
Bill of Rights, the 1st, 4th, 5th, the 9th, and 10th amendments. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you born in Hartford, Conn., on September 
18, 1912? 

Mr. Kovner. I was. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ? 

Mr. Kovner. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds 
as previously mentioned. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you at the present time a member of the Car- 
penters Union in Van Nuys ? 

(The witness confers with his counsel.) 

Mr. Kovner. I decline to answer that question on the grounds pre- 
viously mentioned. 

Mr. Tavenner. As a matter of fact, you were expelled by the 
union, weren't you ? 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 145 

Mr. KovNER. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Weren't you expelled by that union for Communist 
Party activities? 

Mr. KovNER. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I desire to offer in evidence a ther- 
raofax copy of the May 22, 1951, issue of the People's World and also 
the September 28, 1950, issue of the People's World. 

The Chairman. They will be marked. 

Mr. Tavenner. And mark them "Kovner Exhibits 1 and 2," re- 
spectively, in the inverse order in which I mentioned them. 

(Documents marked "Kovner Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2," respectively, 
and retained in committee files.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a delegate from the San Fernando area 
to the Southern California District convention of the Communist 
Party held in Los Angeles on April 13 and 14, 1957 ? 

Mr. Kovner. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds. 

Mr. TA^'ENNER. The committee has learned through reports that 
have been made available to it in the form of a statement made by 
Dorothy Healey at the district convention of the Southern District 
of California, held in April 1957, that special emphasis was being 
placed at the time upon the work of members of the Communist 
Party in various mass organizations. I would like to ask you whether 
or not that is a continuation of the policy and purpose of the Com- 
munist Party or whether there was anything new regarding the Com- 
munist Party decision at that time ? 

Mr. Kovner. You would know that better than I. 

Mr. Tavenner. Well, I am not so sure. I think I do know a good 
bit about it, but according to the information of the committee, you 
engaged in that type of activity, and if that is so, there is no one in a 
better position to describe your own activities than you. So, there- 
fore, I am asking you the question. 

Mr. Kovner. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tamsnner. Were you a member of the Studio City Club of the 
Independent Progressive Party? 

Mr. Kovner. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you engage in activities wdthin that party at 
the instance of any Communist Party unit or Communist Party 
functionary? 

Mr. Kovner. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. In 1954 were you a member of the California State 
Central Committee of the Independent Progressive Party ? 

Mr. Kovner. I decline to answer that question. Same grounds. _ 

Mr. Taa^nner. Mr. Chairman, I otTer in evidence a photostatic 
copy of an Independent Progressive Party appointment of members 
of the State Central Committee for the year 1954 with regard to three 
persons, the second of whom is Julius Kovner, and ask that it be 
marked "Kovner Exhibit No. 3." 

The Chairman. It will be marked. 

(Document marked "Kovner Exhibit No. 3" and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine exhibit No. 3, Mr. Kovner, and 
state whether or not the second name appearing among the three 
appointments is your name. 



146 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mr. KovKER. I decline to answer tliat question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. I also offer in evidence a photostatic copy of a simi- 
lar document for the year 1948 and ask that it be marked "Kovner 
Exhibit No. 4." 

The Chairman. It will be made a x^art of the record. 

(Document marked "Kovner Exhibit No. 4" and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine exhibit No, 4 and state whether 
or not your name appears on line 3 of the appointees ? 

Mr. Kovner. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. That document is for the year 1948. During the 
same year of 1948 were you not active in circulating petitions for the 
Independent Progressive Party to participate in the primary elec- 
tion of that year ? 

Mr. Kovner. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. I offer in evidence a photostatic copy of an Inde- 
pendent Progressive Party petition to participate in the primary 
election of June 1, 1948, at the end of which there is an affidavit over 
the name of Julius Kovner, and ask that it be marked "Kovner Ex- 
hibit No. 5." 

The Chairman. It will be made a part of the record. 

(Document marked "Kovner Exhibit No. 5" and retained in com- 
mitee files.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine the signature of the name of 
Julius Kovner at the end of the affidavit and state whether or not it 
is your signature ? 

Mr. Kovner. I decline to answer that question. Same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Kovner, did you participate at the instance of 
the Communist Party or any functionary thereof in the National 
Youth Assembly Against Universal Military Training ? 

Mr. Kovner. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. I offer in evidence a thermofax copy of the Febru- 
ary 16, 1948, issue of the People's World carrying an article entitled, 
"Army Draft Protest Set Tonight," and ask that it be marked "Kov- 
ner Exhibit No. 6." 

The Chairman. It will be made a part of the record. 

(Document marked "Kovner Exhibit No. 6" and retained in com- 
mittee files. ) 

Mr. Tavenner. This document refers to one of the announced 
speakers as Julius Kovner^ Valley Local of AFL Carpenters Union. 
Will you examine the exhibit, please, and state whether or not you 
appeared and took part in that rally as a speaker as indicated by the 
advance notice ? 

Mr. Kovner. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you also actively participate at the instance of 
the Communist Party or any functionary of it in the work of the 
Civil Rights Congress? 

Mr. Kovner. I decline to answer. Same grounds. 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 147 

Mr. Tavenner. I offer in evidence as exhibit 7 a thermofax copy 
of the June 11, 1951, issue of People's World. 

The Chairman. It will be made a part of the record. 

(Document marked "Kovner Exhibit No. 7" and retained in coni- 
mitte files.) 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you first come to California for the pur- 
pose of making it the place of 3^our permanent residence ? 

Mr.KovNER. 1943. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you lived and worked in California continu- 
ously since that time ? 

Mr. Kovner. Except when I was in the Army. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long were you in the military service ? 

Mr. Kovner. Approximately a year. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you receive an honorable discharge ? 

Mr. Kovner. I sure did. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat has been your formal educational training? 

Mr. Kovner. I graduated from high school and got in about 2 or 3 
years of night college. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where did you attend college ? 

Mr. Kovner. Back East. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where ? 

Mr. Kovner. Brooklyn College. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where did you attend high school ? 

Mr. Kovner. De Witt Clinton High School. 

Mr. Tavenner. "Where is that located ? 

Mr. Kovner. New York. 

Mr. Ta\^nner. Where were you born ? 

Mr. Kovner. Hartford, Conn. 

Mr. Tavenner. And the date of your birth is what ? 

Mr. Kovner. I declined to answer that question before. 

Mr. Tavenner, Did you say that you answered that question before ? 

Mr. Kovner. I don't think I did. 

Mr. Tavenner. I didn't think so, either. What is the date of your 
birth? 

Mr. Kovner. I declined to answer that question before. 

Mr. Tavenner. You refuse to tell how old you are? Weren't you 
born September 18, 191 '2 ? 

Mr. Kovner. You asked me that question before. I refused to 
answer it. . 

Mr. Tavenner. I am interested in your reason. What reason could 
you possibly have 

Mr. Kovner. I aon't have to 



Mr. Tavenner. For thinking that the answer to that question might 
tend to incriminate you ? 

Mr. Kovner. Do 1 have to have a reason ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes ; you certainly do. 

Mr. Kovner. Just the feeling I have about the committee, the 
pertinency. 

Mr. Tavenner. As I mentioned earlier, the committee has learned 
of certain Communist Party plans through various reports made by 
Dorothy Healey. One section of her report deals with the activity 
of its members in the field of labor. Are you at this time engaged 
in Communist Party activities within any labor organization? 

38253— 59— pt. 2 2 



148 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mr. KovNER. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. The witness is excused. 

The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand, please? Do you 
swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mrs. Marshall. Yes ; I do. 

TESTIMONY OF BERTHA MAESHALL, ACCOMPANIED BY COTJNSEL, 

DAN MARSHALL 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please? 

Mrs. Marshall. Bertha Marshall. 

Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that the witness is accompanied by Mr. 
Dan Marshall, admitted to the practice of law in the State of Cali- 
fornia and engaged in the practice of law in Los Angeles. 

The Chairman. I did not hear the witness. 

Mrs. Marshall. Bertha Marshall. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is that your married name or your maiden name? 

(The witness confers with her coimsel.) 

Mr. Tavenner. I think I can shorten this. I withdraw the ques- 
tion. Was your maiden name Bertha Kuppersmith ? 

(The witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Marshall. I decline to answer this question on the following 
grounds: By reason of the provisions of the first amendment which 
forbids this committee from abridging my freedom of speech, press, 
political belief and association, assembly and inquiry. By reason of 
the provisions of the fourth amendment of the Bill of Rights which 
makes me secure in my person, house, papers, and effects from this 
unreasonable search and seizure of this committee. By reason of the 
provisions of the fifth amendment of the Bill of Rights which for- 
bids this committee from attempting to compel me to be a witness 
against myself, and attempting to deprive me of my liberty, property, 
and the right to earn a livelihood without due process of law, an 
amendment which creates a privilege for the innocent, and by the 
use of this privilege I admit no guilt whatsoever. By reason of the 
provisions of the sixth amendment of the Bill of Rights which re- 
quires you to confront me with any persons whom you say accuse me 
of wrongdoing. 

By reason of the ninth amendment of the Bill of Rights which for- 
bids your denying or disparaging the rights retained by the people, 
including all the constitutional rights contained in the first, fourth, 
fifth, and sixth amendments. By reason of the provisions of the 
10th amendment of the Bill of Rights which forbids this committee 
from proceeding with this inquiry, which deals with powers reserved 
to the people. 

This question lacks pertinency. This committee has not given 
me or made available to me any knowledge which conceivably could 
make this inquiry and this question pertinent with that degree of 
explicitness and clarity required by the due process clause. 

The power of this committee is not unlimited. It has no general 
authority to expose the private affairs of individuals simply for the 
sake of exposure. This investigation is imrelated to any legislative 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 140 

purpose, being beyond the power conferred upon the Congress under 
the Constitution. 

This committee has not made clear with undisputable clarity the 
subject matter of this inquiry. It is the duty of the committee upon 
my present objection to state for the record the subject under inquiry 
and the manner in which this question is pertinent. 

I further demand that this explanation must be meaningful and 
must describe what the topic under inquiry is and the connective rea- 
soning whereby the question now asked me relates to it. 

Mr. Marshall. Will it be understood, Mr. Chairman, that if the 
witness declines to answer any further questions, she will be deemed 
to have so declined upon each, all, and every of the grounds she has 
now stated ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. The grounds stated by you for your refusal to an- 
swer — I believe you read from a prepared statement made ahead of 
the hearing. Is that correct ? 

(The witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Marshall. I decline to answer that upon the same grounds. 

The Chairman. Just a minute. The question was what was your 
maiden name, is that it? 

Mr. Tavenner. The primary question was whether or not her 
maiden name was Bertha Kuppersmith. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question, Mrs. 
Marshall, whether or not your name was Bertha Kuppersmith. 

Mr. Marshall. We passed that question. I think we are on the 
memorandum. 

The Chairman. I am directing her to answer the question. 

Mr. Marshall. May we have the question read that you are direct- 
ing her to answer ? 

The Chairman. Was your maiden name Bertha Kuppersmith? 

Mr. Marshall. Could we have it again ? May we have the reporter 
read the pending question? 

The Chairman. Read the question. 

Was your name Bertha Kuppersmith ? You understand the ques- 
tion, don't you? 

Mrs. Marshall. It was Bertha Kuppersmith. 

The Chairman. The answer is "Yes, sir" ? 

Mrs. Marshall. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. That has taken about 20 minutes. 

Mr. Moulder. I would like to have the record show that the reasons 
given by the witness were taken from a written statement. 

Mr. Marshall. What is the objection? 

The Chairman. He is just making a statement. 

Proceed, Mr. Tavenner. 

Mr. Tavener. Were you born April 9, 1901, in Stordzyentz, 
Rumania ? 

Mrs. Marshall. I decline to answer this question on grounds pre- 
viously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. May I have a direction ? 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. 

(The witness confers with her counsel.) 



150 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mrs. Marshall. I decline to answer this question on the grounds 
previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you naturalized as a citizen of the United 
States on May 21, 1928, in the State of New York? 

Mrs. Marshall. I decline to answer this question on the grounds 
previously stated. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. We are 
merely trying to identify you with a degree of certainty that will 
eliminate the possibility of any person by the same name becoming 
involved in this. Were you naturalized on that date ? 

(The witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Marshall. I decline to answer on the grounds previously 
stated. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a delegate to the Los Angeles County 
convention of the Communist Party held in Los Angeles on January 
5 and 6, 1957? 

Mrs. Marshall. I decline to answer on the grounds previously 
stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you also a delegate to the Southern California 
District convention, held on April 13 and 14, 1957, in Los Angeles? 

Mrs. Marshall. I decline to answer on the grounds previously 
stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. The committee has learned through a report made 
by Dorothy Healey at the convention on April 13 and 14, 1957, that 
one of the main concentrations of the Communist Party at this time 
in this area is work within mass organizations. Have you been called 
upon by the Communist Party to engage in that type of work since 
the date of her report, April 1957 ? 

Mrs. Marshall. I decline to answer on the grounds stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Weren't you already engaged in work of that kind 
and had been so engaged for a number of years ? 

Mrs. Marshall. I decline to answer on the grounds previously 
stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you assigned by the Communist Party or a 
Communist Party functionary to engage in Communist Party activi- 
ties within the Independent Progressive Party in this State? 

Mrs. Marshall. I decline to answer on the grounds previously 
stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Didn't part of your assignment consist of the cir- 
culation as early as 1948 of petitions of the Independent Progressive 
Party of California to participate in primary elections ? 

Mrs. Marshall. I decline to state on the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. I offer in evidence and ask that it be marked as 
"Mai-shall Exhibit No. 1" a photostatic copy of an Independent 
Progressive Party of California petition to participate in the primary 
election of June 1, 1948. 

The Chairman. Make it a part of the record. 

( Document marked "Marshall Exhibit No. 1" and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Tavenner. I call the witness' attention to an affidavit, appear- 
ing at the end of the petition, over the signature of Mrs. Bertha 
Marshall. Will you examine the signature and state whether or 
not it is your genuine signature ? 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 151 

Mrs. Marshall. I decline to answer on grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now actively engaged in political work at 
the instance of the Communist Party ? 

Mrs. Marshall. I decline to answer on grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been instructed or directed by your 
Communist Party unit or any functionary of the Communist Party 
to keep your Communist Party identity a secret ? 

Mrs. Marshall. I decline to answer on grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in California? 

Mrs. Marshall. I decline to state on grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you not as early as 1943 a member of the 
Mid Town Section of the Communist Party in Los Angeles? 

Mrs. Marshall. I decline to answer this question on the grounds 
previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you not the membership director of this sec- 
tion of the Communist Party ? 

Mrs. Marshall. I decline to state, to answer this question on grounds 
previously stated. 

Mr. Ta\^nner. AYere you a member of the Communist Party in 
April of 1957? 

Mrs. Marshall. I decline to answer this question on the grounds 
previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party now? 

Mrs. Marshall. I decline to answer this question on the grounds 
previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Moulder. I have forgotten whether or not the question was 
asked as to where you were born. I do ask you that question. In what 
country were you born ? 

Mr. Marshall. That has already been asked and answered. 

Mr. Moulder. Rumania. I have this question to ask, too. Have 
you conferred with any person or persons, other than your counsel, 
after having been served with a subpena, as to how you would or 
should conduct yourself as a witness when appearing before this 
committee ? 

Mrs. Marshall. I decline to answer on grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Moulder. My reason for asking that question is that there 
seems to be a concerted action on the part of most all of the witnesses 
who have been subpenaed to refuse any and all questions regardless 
of whether or not their refusal under the Constitution is a reasonable 
refusal, is being used in good faith. 

The Chairman. That is all. 

Mr. Marshall. Mr. Chairman, the witness objects to her name being 
released to the press as having appeared before this committee and 
likewise objects to any resume of her testimony being given to the 
press and objects to any information being given as to the position 
she took in this hearing. We do not intend to give our name to the 
press, nor do we intend to tell the press anything that occurred in 
this room. 

The Chahiman. You should see what happened yesterday, Mr. 
Marshall. 

Mr. Marshall. What happened, sir ? 



152 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

The Chairman. A witness, before he came in here, gave to the press 
a statement and then came in and testified. He had already given the 
statement to the press. 

Mr. Marshall, We have not given a statement. 

Mr. Tavenner. His statement appeared in the public press before 
he testified. 

Mr. Marshall. We do not know to whom you refer. It is not us. 

The Chairman. We have been trying to the best of our ability to 
see to it that people do not get into nasty situations. We are not 
getting too much cooperation. 

Mr. Marshall. You are getting it from this witness. She does 
not want her name released. She will not release it. She does not 
want it discussed with the press at all. 

The Chairman. When she walks out, she is going to see some news- 
paper people. 

Mr. Marshall. She is not going to say any thing to them. 

The Chairman. Someone knows her. Someone will recognize her. 

Mr. Marshall. We will say nothing, and that is all there is to it. 

The Chairman. All right. 

(Members present : Eepresentatives Walter and Moulder.) 

(Brief recess.) 

The Chairman. Raise your right hand, please, young lady. Do you 
swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mrs. Henrickson. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF ELLIE HENRICKSON, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

DAN MARSHALL 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please ? 

Mrs. Henrickson. Ellie Henrickson. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is that your married name ? 

(The witness confers with her counsel. ) 

Mr. Tavenner. I think first you had better spell your name for the 
record. 

Mrs. Henrickson. My last name ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Both names. 

Mrs. Henrickson. It's E-1-l-i-e H-e-n-r-i-c-k-s-o-n. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now my question is whether or not that is your 
married name. 

(The witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mr. Moulder. May I interrupt the counsel and witness? Will you 
ref rame that question ? Is that Mrs. or Miss ? 

Mrs. Henrickson. It is Mrs. 

Mr. Tavenner. "V^Tiat was your maiden name ? 

Mrs. Henrickson. Mr. Chairman, I am going to decline to answer 
this question on the following grounds : First of all, by reason of the 
first amendment, which states that Congress shall make no law abridg- 
ing freedom of speech or of press or the right of the people to peaceably 

I am also declining to answer this question based on the fourth 
amendment of the Constitution, which gives me the right to be secure 
in my house and papers from the kind of unreasonable search and 
seizure by this committee. 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 153 

I am also declining based on my rights under the fifth amendment 
of the Constitution which forbids the committee to compel me to be 
a witness against myself and to deprive me of my liberty and property 
and the right to earn a livelihood without due process of law. I would 
like to make it very clear that this is an amendment which protects 
the innocent and that I am not feeling that I am hiding anything. I 
do not feel guilty, but I do feel that under the atmosphere that has 
been created here I could, in answering this question, could tend to 
incriminate me. 

I would also like to decline this question based under my rights of 
the sixth amendment of the Constitution, which requires this com- 
mittee to confront me with any witnesses who might accuse me of any 
wrongdoing. I am not aware of any wrongdoing. 

I would also like to decline under the ninth amendment of the Con- 
stitution, which forbids this committee or Congress from denying or 
disparaging any of the rights that aie retained by the people, including 
all the rights under the Constitution. 

I would also like to decline under the 10th amendment of the Con- 
stitution, which forbids this committee from proceeding with any in- 
quiry which deals with powers that are reserved to the people. 

Finally, I would like to decline based on lack of pertinency. I can- 
not see Avhere this question is pertinent since the committee has not 
given me any understanding as to the basis for this inquiry, to make 
it clear beyond a reasonable doubt as to what the inquiry deals w^ith. 
I cannot see how this question is pertinent. 

Mr. Tavenner. May I have a direction that she answer the question ? 

The Chairman. I direct the witness to answer. 

Mr. Marshall. Just a minute, Mr. Tavenner. She may not have 
finished her answer. 

Mrs. Henrickson. I would like to restate the question of perti- 
nency, that this question lacks pertinency and this committee has not 
given me or made available to me any knowledge which conceivably 
could make this inquiry and this question pertinent with that degree 
of explicitness and clarity required by the due process clause. 

The power of this committee is not unlimited. It has no general 
authority to expose the private affairs of individuals simply for the 
sake of exposure. This investigation is unrelated to any legislative 
purpose. It is beyond the power conferred upon the Congress under 
the Constitution. 

The committee has not made clear with undisputable clarity the 
subject matter of this inquiry. It is the duty of the committee upon 
my objection on the ground of pertinency to state for the record the 
subject under inquiry and the manner in which this question is 
pertinent. 

I further demand that this explanation must be meaningful and 
must describe what the topic under inquiry is, and tlie connective 
reasoning of why the question now asked relates to it. 

The Chairman. Mrs. Henrickson 

Mr. Marshall. Mr. Chairman, would you wait just a moment? I 
think there might be more to the answer. 

The Chairman. You just go on and i"ead all that material that 
your lawyer has given you and then be ready to answer the question. 

Mrs. Henrickson. I did not quite understand. 



154 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mr. Marshall. May the reporter read what you said ? 

The Chairman, When you are ready to answer the question, let 
me know, will you, please ? I will Avait here. 

Mr. Marshall. The witness has completed her answer. 

The Chairman. You haven't been asked any question except as 
to your identity. This question was asked for the purpose of mak- 
ing it abundantly clear in the record who it is that we are about to 
interrogate. So I direct you to answer the question as to your 
maiden name. 

Mr. Marshall. Will it be agreed, Mr. Chairman, that if the witness 
declines to answer any further questions, including the pending one, 
she will be deemed to have declined upon all of the grounds she has 
just stated? 

The Chairman. Yes. Let the record show that in the event the 
witness declines to answer any questions, the reasons are the ones 
she read from the paper before her when she was first asked the 
question. 

Mr. Moulder. She was directed by the Chair to answer the question. 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 

(The witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mr, Moulder. Counsel asked her what her maiden name was. She 
has not responded to that question. 

Mrs. Henrickson. I am the person who has been subpenaed and I 
think this has established my identity. I will refuse to answer this 
question further on the grounds that I have already stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. The witness has placed another condition to her 
refusal to answer, so I think the record ought to show another clear 
direction for her to answer. 

The Chairman, Yes. She was directed, and she just declined to 
answer. What was her maiden name, Mr. Tavenner ? 

Mr. Tavenner. I would like to find out from her if her maiden 
name was Ellie Gutman, who was born on February 26, 1922, in 
Munich, Germany. 

Mr, Marshall, Is that a question '? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Henrickson. I am declining to answer this question on the 
grounds I have previously stated. 

Mr. Moulder. May I ask just one question ? 

In your reasons for not answering that question you referred 
to provisions of the Constitution which you claim the pro- 
tection of, innocent persons, and you referred to yourself as being 
an innocent person. In your reasons for claiming the protection of 
the fifth amendment, as I recall, you stated that the answer to the 
question may tend to incriminate or subject you to criminal prosecu- 
tion. How can you be consistent in claiming on the one hand that 
the statement which you have read, the reasons stated for the pro- 
tection of yourself as an innocent person, and at the same time claim 
the provision of the fifth amendment ? 

Mrs. Henrickson. I would simply 

(The witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Henrickson. As far as I know, I think this is a question of 
record, there have been times when innocent people have been subjert 
(o prosecution, so T would not answer the question. 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 155 

Further, I will not answer the question based on the grounds that I 
have previously stated. 

Mr. Moulder. When did you come to this country from Munich, 
Gemiany? 

Mrs. Henrickson. I decline to answer this question on the grounds 
I previously stated. 

Mr. Moulder. Are you a naturalized citizen ? 

Mrs. Henrickson. I am. 

Mr. Moulder. And where were you naturalized or admitted as a 
citizen ? 

(The witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Henrickson. I decline to answer this question based on the 
reasons I have previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you the same person as Ellie Gutman who was 
naturalized in San Francisco, Calif., by decree of the court on June 
5,1944? 

Mrs. Henrickson. I decline to answer this question based on the 
reasons I have previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party on 
June 5, 1944? 

Mrs. Henrickson. I decline to answer this question based on the 
reasons I have previously stated. 

Mr. Moulder. May I specifically ask you, in those reasons that you 
have stated, you claimed tlie protection under the fifth amendment of 
the Constitution ? 

Mrs. Henrickson, I claim the protection of all the grounds I have 
previously stated. 

Mr. Moulder. Including the fifth amendment ? 

Mrs. Henrickson. Including the fiftli amendment, all the grounds. 

Mr. Moulder. Do you fear that if you answer that question truth- 
fully it may tend to incriminate you or subject you to prosecution? 

Mr. Marshall. A word or two was blotted out. May I have the 
reporter repeat it ? 

Mr. Moulder, I asked if she truthfully answered the question, does 
she fear that the answer might supply evidence or information which 
might subject her to criminal prosecution. 

( The witness confers with her counsel. ) 

Mrs. Henrickson. I decline to answer based on the grounds I have 
previously stated. 

Mr. Moulder. I believe, Mr. Cluiirman, that she is certainlv com- 
pelled to use good faith in claiming the provisions in refusing to 
answer the question and has to show good faith in so doing, and that 
is not evidence of good faith by declining to answer the question 
as to whether or not she is in good faith clainiing the provisions 
of the Constitution in refusing to answer the question. 

Mr. Marshall. Is there a question pending or was that just an 
observation of the gentleman ? 

Mr. Moulder. It was my observation, and I request the chairman to 
direct the witness to answer that question which I liave asked lier. 

( The witness confers with her counsel. ) 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. 

Mrs. Henrickson. In good faith I decline to answer based on my 
rights under the Constitution as previously stated. 



156 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mr. Moulder. You have not stated whether or not you actually fear 
prosecution if you truthfully answer the question. 

Mrs. Henrickson. I am basing myself on all the rights that are 
guaranteed me under the Constitution. 

The Chairman. Mrs. Henrickson, when did you come to the United 
States? 

Mrs. Henrickson. I am sorry. I did not hear the question. 

The Chairman. AVlien did you come to the United States ? 

Mrs. Henrickson. This is the same question, and I decline to 
answer. 

The Chairman. No, it is not the same question. 

Mr. Marshall. Was the question withdrawn ? 

The Chairman. I will withdraw it. 

Mr. Marshall. The question is withdrawn. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is your present address 5068 West 20th Street, Los 
Angeles ? 

Mrs. Henrickson. I will answer this by saying that I live at the 
address that is mentioned in my subpena. I will decline to answer this 
question on my constitutional rights as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is your husband's name Stanley William Hen- 
rickson ? 

Mrs. PIenrickson. When I mentioned my grounds, I pointed out 
that this was an unlawful infringement on my personal rights. I 
Avill not involve any other person in this, and T will further decline 
to answer this question based on my constitutional rights as previously 
stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you live at Everett in tlie State of Washington 
prior to your coming to California ? 

Mrs. Henrickson. I am declining to answer this question based on 
my rights under the Constitution as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavennfji. In the course of hearings in Seattle, Wash., in June 
of 1954, })arbara Hartle, second in command in the Communist Party 
in the State of Washington, testified freely before this committee after 
she had been convicted and sentenced in the Smith Act case from 
that area. In the course of her testimony she was asked this question : 

Will you proceed now to give us the names of ijersons whom you recall, from 
your personal knowledge, who were members of the Communist Party in other 
regions and in other section organizations of the Communist Party in the State 
of Washington? 

In the course of her answer, slie stated this : 

Ellie Henderson, wife of Stan Henderson, whom I knew as a member and 
officer of the Everett Section of the Communist Party. 

Was Barbara Hartle correct in identifying you as a member of the 
Communist Party of Everett, Wash. ? 

Mrs. Henrickson. I decline to answer this question based on my 
rights under the Constitution as previously stated. In addition, I 
want to repeat the question of lack of pertinency since this is a ques- 
tion of Los Angeles. 

The Chairman. Mr. Tavenner, I am confused about the names. 
Is it Henderson or Henrickson ? 

Mr. Tavenner. The spelling of her name as she gave it was Hen- 
rickson. 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 157 

Mr. Marshall. How does the reporter have it ? 

Mr. Tavenner. That is certainly more than a delaying action. 

The Chairman. How do you spell your name ? 

Mrs. Henrickson. H-e-n-r-i-c-k-s-o-n. 

Mr. Tavenner. But the spelling- as given by Mrs. Hartle or as it is 
in the record is H-e-n-d-e-r-s-o-n. 

The Chairman. Let's get that clarified. Do you know this woman, 
Barbara Hartle ? 

Mrs, Henrickson. I decline to answer this question under my con- 
stitutional rights as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, to clarify the matter of spelling, I 
notice at the bottom of page 6180 of the connnittee's record there is a 
note referring to Stan Henderson as follows : 

Identified on page 6149 as same individual as Stanley William Hendrickson. 

The Chairman. How is that spelled ? 

Mr. Tavenner. H-e-n-d-r-i-c-k-s-o-n. 

The Chairman. You have no "d'" in your name ? 

Mrs. Henrickson. No, I don't. 

The Chairman. Are these the same individuals ? 

Mr. Tavenner. That is what 1 am trying to find out. I think there 
is enough in this record to clarify it. 1 will go a little further with it. 

On page 6149 of the record of the conunittee this question was asked 
by Mr. Kmizig : 

Are there any others, please? 

]klrs. Habtle. Stan Henrickson, I believe it is. 

Mr. KuNziG. H-e-n-r-i-c-k-s-o-n? 

Mrs. Hartle. Yes, that is correct. In my commuuieation with him formerly 
I had used the name Henderson and had never been corrected by him, but I have 
reason to believe that his name is Henrickson novv^. 

That is why I asked this witness whether or not slie was the wife of 
Stanley William Henrickson. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Tavenner. Which she refused to answer. Did you live in 
Everett, Wash.? 

Mrs. Henrickson. I decline to answer this question based on my 
rights under the Constitution as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your husband's name ? 

Mrs. Henrickson. It is the same question, and I am giving the same 
answer. 

Mr. Moulder. May I inquire, Mr. Chairman ? 

Are you married now ? 

Mrs. Henrickson. I decline to answer this question based on my 
constitutional rights as I have previously stated them. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Zapata Section of the 
Communist Party in Los Angeles ? 

Mrs. Henrickson. I decline to answer this question based on my 
rights under the Constitution as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. I do not believe I have asked you your occupation. 
What is your occupation ? 

Mrs. Henrickson. I decline to answer this question based on my 
rights under the Constitution. 

Mr. Tavenner. Aren't you a social worker? 



158 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mrs. Henrickson. This is tlie same question, and I decline to answer 
it based on the grounds I have previously stated. 

Mr. Tavennek. Aren't you employed at the Council of Jewish 
Women, 615 South Manhattan Place, Los Angeles, under the name of 
Ellie Goodman? 

Mrs. Henrickson. I am the person who was subpenaed on my job. 
I refuse to answer the question any further based on my rights under 
the Constitution as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner, When you were subpenaed on your job, were you 
using the name of Ellie Goodman ? 

Mrs. Henrickson. I decline to answer this question based on my 
rights under the Constitution as I have previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. What reason do you have for concealing your true 
name ? 

(The witness confers with her comisel.) 

Mrs. Henrickson. I decline to answer this question based upon my 
rights under the Constitution as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. The committee's investigation reflects that you were 
a delegate to the convention of the Southern California District of the 
Communist Party held in Los Angeles on April 13 and 14, 1957. Is 
this information correct ? 

Mrs. Henrickson. This is the same kind of a question you have 
asked before. It invades my rights under the Constitution, and I 
decline to answer it based on the grounds I have previously stated. 

Mr. Ta\'enner. Is it not a fact jou came to Los Angeles to make it 
the place of your permanent residence somethne during the year 1955? 

Mrs. Henrickson. I decline to answer this question based upon my 
rights under the Constitution as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party at this 
time? 

Mrs. Henrickson. I decline to answer this question based upon my 
rights under the Constitution as I have previously stated them. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether a person by the name of 
vStanley William Henrickson, the same spelling as you gave for your 
name, was called as a witness on June 17, 1954, in Seattle, Wash.? 
That is, as a witness before this committee ? 

Mrs. Henrickson. Mr. Chairman, all these questions violate my 
right to free speech and to association as guaranteed to me under the 
Constitution. I decline to answer this question based upon my rights, 
my constitutional rights as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Moulder. Mr. Chairman, may I ask the witness a question ? 

I want to ask the witness if you care or if you wish to make any 
clarification of any answer or responses to questions which you have 
given. 

Mrs. Henrickson. Mr. Chairman, would you explain wliat you 
mean by this question ? I am really not clear about it. 

Mr. Moulder. There seems to be some confusion about your name 
or whether or not you were going under any name other than the 
name under which you were subpenaed. I wondered whether or not 
you have any statement you wish to make lo clarify or explain. 

Mrs. Henrickson. I will let the record speak for itself. 

The Chairman. All right. 



COMMUNISM IN SOUl^HERN CALIFORNIA AREA 159 

Mr. Marshall. Mr. Chairman. 

The CnAiRMAN. Do you have another witness ? 

Mr. MARSHALL. Yes. Mukes. 

This witness objects to her name being given to the press. 

Mr. Tavenner. May I suggest, inasmuch as I am going to call his 
three witnesses successively, that he make those announcements 
at the end of all of them rather than taking up all the time that is 
being taken up with stating tlie same thing separately three times? 

The Chairman. As far as we can control it, Mr. Marshall, we will 
do that. 

Mr. ]\Iarshall. The previous witness was Mrs. Bertha Marshall. 

The Chairman. What is the name of this witness ? 

Mr. Marshall. As stated in the subpena. 

Mrs. Henrickson. Any name. 

Mr. Marshall. In other words, we object to any name being used 
for this witness appearing before the committee, and we object to any 
statement being made as to the nature of her answers here. 

Mr. Tav'enner. Do you desire to make the same statement regarding 
your next witness ? I have agreed to call next Fay Mukes. 

Mr. Marshall. Yes ; we do, Mr. Tavenner. 

The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand ? Do you swear the 
testimony you are about to give Avill be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mrs. Mukes. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF PAY KOVNEK MUKES, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

DAN MARSHALL 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please? 

Mrs. Mukes. Fay Kovner Mukes. 

Mr. Tavenner. Miss or Mrs. ? 

Mrs. Mukes. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the 1st, 4th, 5th, 
6th, 9th, 10th amendments of the Bill of Rights and the lack of per- 
tinency. This question lacks pertinency. This committee has not 
given me or made available to me any knowledge which conceivably 
makes this inquiry pertinent with that degree of explicity and clarity 
required by the due process clause. 

The power of this committee is not unlimited. It has no general 
authority to expose the private affairs of individuals simply for the 
sake of exposure. This investigation is unrelated to any legislative 
purpose, being beyond the power conferred upon the Congress by the 
Constitution. Tliis conmiittee has not made it appear with undisput- 
able clarity the subject matter of this inquiry. It is the duty of the 
committee upon my present objection on the grounds of pertinency to 
state the subject matter under inquiry and the manner in which this 
question is pertinent. 

I further demand that this explanation must be meaningful and 
must describe what the topic of the inquiry is and whereby the ques- 
tion now asked relates to it. 

Mr. Marsilvll. Will it be stipulated, Mr. Chairman, that if the wit- 
ness declines to answer any further questions she will be deemed to 
have declined to so answer upon each, all, and eveiy of the grounds 
that she has now stated ? 



160 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

The Chairman. It will be understood that the reasons for not 
answering the questions are those that she read from a piece of 
paper when she was asked whether or not she was married. Proceed. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are yon not a sister of Julius Kovner, who has 
testified here earlier today ? 

Mrs.MuKES. I refuse on the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you born on April 10, 1924, in New York 
City? , ^ . . A 

Mrs. MuKES. I decline to answer on the grounds stated. ^ 

Mr. Tavenner. Your occupation is that of a legal secretary; is it 

not? , J • 1 

Mrs. MuKES. I decline to answer on the same grounds as previously 

^^Mr*. Tavenner. Your address is 2001 South Curson, Los Angeles? 
Tmi't oiit correct . 

Mrs MuKES. i decline on the same reasons previously given. 

Mr. IMouLDER. Mr. Chairman, I want to ask the witness this ques- 
tion : Would you answer any question propounded to you by counsel i 

(The witness confers witli her counsel. ) 

Mr. Moulder. That is a question I am asking you. 

(The witness confers with her counsel.) • , t u 

Mrs. MuKES. I would answer all proper questions, but 1 would 
decline on any improper questions. . 

Mr. Moulder. I am trying to think of some question that you will 
answer. As I recall, Mr. Tavenner asked you your name. Have you 
given your name? 

Mrs. MuKES. Yes. 

Mr. Moulder. What was it? 

Mrs.MuKES. Fay Kovner Mukes. -.r t i.-n 

Mr. Moulder. Then he asked you if it was Miss or Mrs. 1 still 
don't understand your name. 

Mrs.MuKES. Fay. My first name is Fay. 

Mr. Moulder. And the last name ? 

Mrs. Mukes. Kovner Mukes. 

Mr. Moulder. How do you spell that ? 

Mrs. Mukes. K-o-v-n-e-r M-u-k-e-s. They are two separate names. 

Mr. Moulder. Kovner Mukes. 

Mrs. Mukes. Right. 

Mr. Moulder. I ask you, is it Miss or Mrs. Fay Kovner Mukes { 

Mrs. Mukes. I decline to answer on the grounds that I previously 

mentioned. , -r, . • at 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Farty m JNo- 

vember 1952 ? . 

Mrs. Mukes. I refuse to answer on the same ground previously 

cited. . , , „ 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence a thermotax copy 
of an article appearing in the November 27, 1952, issue of Los Angeles 
Herald-Express. The caption of the article is, "State Probe Here 
Bares Eed Plot to Control L. A. Housing. Solons Reveal Proof of Red 
Housing Plot." I ask that it be marked "Mukes Exhibit No. 1." 
The Chairman. Make it a part of the record. 

(Document marked "Mukes Exhibit No. 1." and retained m com- 
mittee files.) 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 161 

Mr. Tavenner. In the last paragraph of the article the following 
statement is made : 

A former employe, Fay Kovuer, a CHA clerk under Green until 1950, was de- 
scribed by the committee as an unfriendly witness. She refused to answer nearly 
every question put to her, including one as to whether her brother's name was 
Julius. 

Will you examine the last paragraph and state whether or not you 
are the Fay Kovner referred to ? 

Mrs. MuKES, I decline to answer on the same grotrnds I previously 
stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a clerk in the City Housing Administra- 
tion in or prior to 1952 ? 

Mrs. MuKES. I decline to answer on the same grounds as previously 
stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a delegate to the Los Angeles County 
convention of the Communist Party on January 5 and 6, 1957? 

Mrs. MuKES. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously cited. 

Mr. Tavenner. The committee has information that you were a 
delegate to the Southern California District convention of the Com- 
munist Party held on April 13 and 14, 1957. Is this correct ? 

Mrs. Mukes. I refuse to answer on the same gromids previously 
cited. 

Mr. TA\TiNNER. Were you a delegate to that convention ? 

Mrs. Mukes. I refuse on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Has any convention been held of the Southern Cali- 
fornia District of the Communist Party since April 13, 1957, to your 
knowledge ? 

Mrs. Mukes. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. In the report made by Dorothy Healey, at the con- 
vention of April 13 and 14, 1957, great stress was laid by her upon the 
work of Communist Party membeis in mass organizations. Did you, 
after that date, engage in any Communist Party work in mass organ- 
izations at the direction of the Conmiunist Party 'i 

Mrs. Mukes. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Hadn't you been engaged in work of tl: ■%.*" character 
prior to that date ? 

Mrs. Mukes. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Weren't you a member of the Civil Rights Con- 
gress here in Los Angeles and took active part in the work of that 
organization ? 

Mrs. Mukes. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Weren't you appointed on September 8, 1955, as 
chairman of the Echo Park Branch of the Civil Rights Congress? 

Mrs. MuKES. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you participate at the instance of any Commu- 
nist Party unit or functionary in the work of the Labor Youth 
League ? 

Mrs. Mukes. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Ta^^nner. Did you not liold membersliip in the La})or Youth 
League ? 

Mrs. Mukes. I refuse to ansAver on tJie same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Our information is that you were not in attendance 
at a meeting on July 27, 1958, of the District Council of the Commu- 



162 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

nist Party here in Los Angeles, but were you officially informed in 
your section of the Communist Party as to what transpired at that 
meeting ? 

Mrs. MuKES. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party on 
July 27, 1958? 

Mrs. MuKES. I refuse to answer on the same grounds._ 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Paity now ? 

Mrs. MuKES. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Moulder. Are you a citizen of the United States ? 

(The witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Mukes. I decline on the same basis, same grounds as pre- 
viously stated. 

Mr. Moulder. Are you a member of any organization which advo- 
cates the overthrow of our Government by force and violence? 

Mrs. MuKES. I decline on the same grounds. 

Mr. Moulder. Do you have any knowledge or information concern- 
ing the activities of any person advocating the overthrow of our 
Government by force and violence ? 

Mrs. MuKES. I dexiline on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Was the place of your birth New York City ? 

Mrs. MuKJES. I decline on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you first come to California ? 

Mrs. Mukes. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand, please? Do you 
swear the testimony you are about to give shall be the truth, the 
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mrs. Lusher. I do. 

TESTIMONY OP ROSEMAEY ITJSHER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

JOHN T. McTERNAN 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please ? 

Mrs. Lusher. Rosemary Lusher. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you have a middle name ? 

Mrs. Lusher. No. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is not a part of your name Rosemaiy Haskell 
Lusher ? 

Mrs. Lusher. Well, I think that I will have to refuse to answer 
that. 

Mr. Tavenner. You liave to refuse to tell your name ? 

Mrs. Lusher. I believe I told you my name. 

Mr. Tavenner. Miss or Mrs. ? 

Mrs. Lusher. Mrs. 

Mr. Moulder. May I ask, Mr. Chairman, if she would state her 
full name. 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 

Mrs. Lusher. I did state my name. 

Mr. Tavenner. But you did not state your full name, as the Con- 
gressman indicated. 

Mrs. IvusiTER. That is my full name, Rosemary Lusher. 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA |163 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden- 
tify himself for the record ? 

Mr. McTernan. Surely. My name is John T. McTernan, of the 
firm of Margolis, McTernan and Branton, 112 West 9th Street, Los 
Angeles 15, Calif. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is your husband's name Bernard Lusher ? 

(The witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Lusher. I am sorry. Would you ask me the question again? 

Mr. Tavenner. Is your husband's name Bernard Lusher ? 

Mrs. Lusher. Yes, it is. 

Mr. Tavenner. What was your maiden name ? 

Mrs. Lusher. Well, Counsel, I am sorry. How do I address you ? 

Mr. Tavenner. You need not address me at all if you don't like. 
Just answer the question. 

The Chairman. Mr. Tavenner. 

Mrs. Lusher. You are Mr. Tavenner. I am quite willing to call 
you Mr. Tavenner. I would like to know what the point of your line 
of questioning is because I don't really see the pertinency at this 
moment. 

Mr. Tavenner. At this moment it is to properly identify you. 

Mrs. Lusher. I believe that the name Rosemary Lusher will prop- 
erly identify me. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you the same person as Rosemary Wylde ? 

Mrs. Lusher. Well, Counsel, you know, I would again like to know 
what the pertinency of the question is. 

Mr. Tavenner. May I have the direction that the witness answer ? 

The CHAHtMAN. You are directed to answer the question. We are 
trying to identify you so there will be no question about who you are 
for the record. 

Mrs. Lusher. I believe that my name does identify me sufficiently. 
Since you have directed me to answer the question, then I feel that 
perhaps at this point I should indicate to you why I cannot answer 
this particular question. 

I have given a lot of thought to this problem since I received the 
subpena a month ago, and I really don't know whether to try to say 
what I am going to say to you or not, because it is really kind of a 
question of trying to communicate between people, and I don't know 
if you want to miderstand what I am trying to say. I don't even know 
if you really fully understand what you do to people when you issue 
these subpenas to them and bring them in like this. 

Mr. Tavenner. This is not responsive to the question at all. 

Mrs. Lusher. The torture you put them through. I want to be 
responsive to the question and I am explaining why I can't answer this 
question to you. 

You see, I feel that when you bring people in like this, against their 
will, in effect you are trying to compel us, you are trying to compel 
me to deny my own right as a free American citizen to be a free 
American citizen, and the only way you can deny it is if you don't 
understand me, if you don't try to understand what I believe and what 
I say. If I have done anytliing wrong, then I believe you know that 
I should be tried in a court. 

Congressman Doyle, who is on this committee, has said that when 
you are called before this oommitt<>e you are thereby convicted. I 

38253 — Rfl— pt, 2 8 



164 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

believe that this is not right. When you do this to me and to these 
other people, you can only do it if you deny — — 

The Chairman. No one is being convicted of anything. You are 
not charged with anything. We are making an inquiry for reasons 
that are perfectly apparent. You have been asked a very simple 
question. I direct you to answer the question. 

Mrs. Lusher. What are the reasons that are so apparent to you, 
that are not apparent to me ? 

The Chairman. We are endeavoring to draft legislation that is 
designed to protect the unwary from enlisting in causes either Com- 
munist-inspired or Communist-dominated, and there are a great many 
well-meaning people who become connected with organizations having 
lofty-sounding purposes which are actually nothing but Communist 
fronts. 

In order to preserve this form of government that they appear to be 
so deeply interested in, we feel it is necessary to legislate in order to 
protect people not as intelligent as you obviously are. So now we are 
asking you some preliminary questions so we know who you are. 

You are not cliarged with anything. No one is going to be cliarged 
with anything. 

Mr. Tavenner. I might say, Mr. Chairman, I am confident that the 
witness has misinterpreted any statement Mr. Doyle may have made 
on that subject. 

The Chahiman. Of course. Go ahead and ask the question. What 
was the question, Mr. Tavenner ? 

Mr. Tavi:nner. Would you read the question, please? 

Mrs. Lusher. As I say. I feel that I have to refuse to answer this 
question, first of all, on what I believe deeply is an important ethical 
and moral ground. 

The Chairman. What question are you not answering? 

Mi-s. Lusher. Well, I believe he wanted to know — what did you 
want to know? You want to know if the name I was born with was 
Wylde? 

The Chairman. Now you are declining to answer a question. What 
question are you declining ? 

Mrs. Lusher. This is the question, isn't it? 

The Chairman. What is it? 

Mrs. Lusher. Maybe counsel would repeat it so I don't say it in- 
correctly. 

The Chairman. You are declining to answer something. What are 
you declining to answer ? 

(The witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Lusher. Well, I shall have to refuse. The question, as my 
counsel informs me, was whether I was known as Rosemary Wylde, and 
as I said, I am going to have to refuse to answer on this, what I con- 
sider this ethical and moral ground, that this committee, by bringing 
people in against their will is denying our basic human rights and is 
treating us as something less, as subhuman, in such a way that we have 
to, if we want to maintain our own belief in the dignity of the indi- 
vidual, we have to decline to cooperate. 

Of course, beyond tliose grounds, I have to also decline to answer 
on the grounds of the first amendment of the Bill of Rights, which for- 
bids the committee to abridge my freedom of speech and press, my 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 165 

political beliefs and associations and assembly and inquiry; on the 
grounds of the fourth amendment of the Bill of Rights, which makes 
me secure in my home and free from imreasonable search and seizure; 
on the grounds of the fifth amendment of the Bill of Rights, which 
prevents this committee from attempting to compel me to be a witness 
against myself, and attempts to deprive me of my liberty and property 
and the right to earn a livelihood without due process of law. This is 
an amendment which protects the innocent, and of course, as you have 
said, I and not charged with anything, and I therefore assume that 
you know, as I know, that I am innocent. And by the use of the fifth 
amendment I am not admitting to any guilt of any kind. 

The Chairman. Wliy did you make that statement ? 

Mrs. Lusher. Because I was very 

(The witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Lusher. I will continue with my grounds. 

On the ground of the sixth amendment of the Bill of Rights, which 
provides that you should confront me, if you wish to, with any per- 
sons with whom you are accusing me of any wrongdoing. 

And the ninth amendment of the Bill of Rights, which forbids the 
denying of any of the rights retained by the people, such as the rights 
that are guaranteed in the first, the fourth, the fifth, and the sixth 
amendments. And the 10th amendment of the Bill of Rights, which 
forbids this committee from proceeding in to inquire, from dealing 
with any powers that are reserved to the people. 

And, of course, on the ground which I had mentioned before, on the 
question of pertinency, since I really cannot see that the inquiry that 
you are conducting with me has genuine pertinency which would lead 
to legislation such as you have indicated, since I believe that the recent 
ruling of the Supreme Court has held that legislation which has been 
passed in the area which you have defined was not valid. 

So that I believe that — I find it hard to believe that this investigation 
can be conducted for the purposes of genuine legislation which will 
not be legislation which will be unconstitutional. 

The Chairman. Ask another question. 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. Were you born in Vermilion, Alberta, 
Canada ? 

(The witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Lusher. I am sorry, Mr. Tavenner, but I am afraid that I shall 
have to refuse to answer this question on all the grounds previously 
stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. May I have a direction that the witness answer ? 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question. It is 
merely for identification. 

Mrs. Lusher. I am afraid that I shall have to decline on all the 
grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you decline ? 

Mrs. Lusher. On all the grounds that I have previously stated. 

The Chairman. All right, proceed. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a naturalized American citizen ? 

Mrs. Lusher. I am sorry, Mr. Tavenner, I shall have to refuse that 
question on all the grounds that I have previously stated. 

Mr. Ta\^nner. Were you not naturalized as a citizen of the United 
States in Los Angeles on November 8, 1946 ? 



166 COIVIMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mrs. Lusher. I am sorry, Mr. Tavenner, but I shall have to refuse 
to answer that question on all the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party on No- 
vember 8, 1946 ? 

Mrs. Lusher. I am sorry, Mr. Tavenner, I shall have to refuse to 
answer that question on all the grounds that I haA^e previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is your present address 3115 Minnesota Street, Los 
Angeles, Calif. 

Mrs. Lusher. Well, I have no objection, since my subpena was 
served there, why, I am sure you know it. 

Mr. Tavenner. Thank you for answering that question. 

How long have you lived in Los Angeles ? 

Mrs. Lusher. Well, Mr. Tavenner, I don't see the pertinency of this 
question, and I shall have to refuse to answer it on all the grounds 
that I have previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is your present occupation that of executive direc- 
tor of the American Russian Institute in Los Angeles ? 

Mrs. Lusher. I am sorry, Mr. Tavenner, but I shall have to decline 
to answer that on the grounds previously stated — on all the grounds 
previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence a thermof ax copy 
of an announcement entitled, "Open House at the American Russian 
Institute, Monday, April 4, 1955, 102414 North Western Avenue, Los 
Angeles," stating : 

Honor the retiring Executive Secretary, Reva Mucha. Welcome the new 
Executive Secretary, Rosemary HaskelL 

I ask that it be marked "Lusher Exhibit No. 1." 

The Chairman. Is there any connection ? 

Mr. Wheeler. That is her previous married name. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is it admitted ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

(Document marked "Lusher Exhibit No. 1" and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine the document, please, and state 
whether or not you are the person mentioned as the new executive secre- 
tary of that organization ? 

(The witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mr. Tavenner. May I inquire of counsel. Do you wish to have a 
longer period of time to confer with the witness ? 

Mr. McTernan. Thank you, Mr. Counsel; I think we have just 
about concluded. 

(The witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mr. JMcTernan. Are you thinking of taking a luncheon recess at 
this time ? 

The Chairman. Have you any more questions, Mr. Tavenner ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir ; I have. 

Mr. McTernan. There is a question pending. 

The Chairman. Yes. Are you going to answer that question ? 

Mr. McTernan. We were discussing it. 

Mrs. Lusher. Did you say that you wanted to take a luncheon 
recess ? 

Mr. Tavenner. No. I asked you a question. Would you please 
answer it ? 



COMMUNISM m SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 167 

Mrs. Lusher. Would you repeat the question ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Read her the question. 

(The question was read. ) 

Mrs. Lusher. Mr. Tavenner, could I ask you what your line of 
questioning intends to be ? 

Mr. Tavenner. I am going to ask you regarding your knowledge 
of the Communist Party activities in the area of Los Angeles. 

Mrs. Lusher. Mr. Tavenner, of course, I have already declined to, 
or I will decline to, answer any such questions. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you answer this question? I have asked this 
question. You have taken quite a considerable length of time. Will 
you please either ansAver it or refuse to answer. 

Mrs. Lusher. Mr. Tavenner, when you say I have taken a consider- 
able length of time, I think you have to realize that I have taken 
considerable lengths of my time, too, and many other people, and you 
have to, I think, realize what you know the effect 

The Chairman. Answer tlie question, please. 

Mr. Tavenner. Just please answer the question. 

Mrs. Lusher. I am afraid I have to decline to ansAver the question 
on all the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party on 
April 4, 1955? 

Mrs. Lusher. I am sorry, I have to decline to answer the question 
on all the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner, Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence a photostatic copy 
of a letter on the stationery of the American Russian Institute bearing 
date of April 28, 1958, and ask that it be marked "Lusher Exhibit 
No. 2." 

The Chairman. Make it a part of the record. 

(Document marked "Lusher Exhibit No. 2" and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Tavenner. This letter indicates that it is over the signature of 
a person by the name of Rosemary Haskell, executive secretary. Will 
you examine the document, please, and state whether or not the signa- 
ture there is your signature or that you signed the name "Rosemary 
Haskell"? 

Mrs. Lusher. I see that this letter is relating to 

Mr. Tavenner. I asked the witness no question regarding the content 
of the letter. My question w^as whether or not she signed it. 

Mrs. Lusher. Have you read the letter ? 

The Chairman. Did you sign that letter ? 

Mrs. Lusher. Well, I am afraid that I have to decline to answer that 
question, but in declining I would 

The Chairman. All right. You declined to answer the question. 
Ask another question. 

Mrs. Lusher. I would like to state my grounds first. 

The Chairman. It is understood the grounds are those that you 
read from the piece of paper. You don't have to read it again. 

Mrs. Lusher. No, but 1 would like to add to my grounds that I have 
previously stated because I feel that this letter reflects the official State 
Department policy on cultural exchange between our country and the 
Soviet Union, a policy (hat I believe the State Department is proud of 



168 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

and feels is going to help to prevent war and, we hope, lead to better 
understanding between America and the Soviet Union. 

The Chairman. We understand all of those things, and we are very 
careful to see to it that our foreign policy is not adversely affected. 
The question is. Did you write the letter ? 

Mrs. Lusher. If I may state my grounds— — 

The Chahiman. Did you write it ? 

Mrs. Lusher. May I state my grounds for refusing to answer? 

The Chairman. Did you write it? And then you can state your 
grounds. Did you or didn't you write the letter ? 

Mrs. Lusher. I would have to decline to state whether or not I 
wrote the letter or not, but I would like to state my grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you not the executive secretary of the Ameri- 
can Russian Institute in Los Angeles in April 1958 ? 

Mrs. Lusher. Mr. Tavenner, I am going to have to decline to answer 
your question, and I would like to state my grounds for doing so. 
Would you like to see the letter ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mrs. Lusher. My constitutional rights guarantee me, I believe, 
freedom of association, and any activities which I might engage in 
are activities of which I am proud, which I don't feel that you are 
genuinely inquiring into. 

Certainly this letter, which is to encourage people to buy tickets to 
see the Moiseyev Dancers, who, as you may recall, took Los Angeles 
and the United States by storm, had a tremendous success. 

The Chairman. I saw it myself in Washington. 

Mrs. Lusher. How did you like it ? 

The Chairman. That is immaterial. Wliat difference does it make? 
You declined to answer for the reasons that you have given. 

Mrs. Lusher. I have to decline to answer for all the reasons that I 
have previously stated, but I feel that it is important that in looking 
at the content of this letter 

The Chairman. Do you want to come back this afternoon ? I have 
a luncheon engagement. 

Mrs. Lusher. I would be very happy to, sir. 

The Chairman, Do you have any more questions ? 

Mr. Ta\^nner. Many. 

The Chairman. We will recess until 2 o'clock this afternoon. 

(Whereupon, at 12 : 15 p.m., the subcommittee recessed, to reconvene 
at 2 p.m. the same day.) 

AFTERNOON SESSION— THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 4, 1958 

(Members present at beginning of afternoon session were: Repre- 
sentatives Walter and Moulder.) 

TESTIMONY OF ROSEMARY LTJSHER^Resumed 

Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Lusher, at the time of the noon recess we were 
discussing the letter on the stationery of the American Russian Insti- 
tute dated April 28, 1958. The name signed to that letter is Rosemary 
Haskell. Were you known by the name of Rosemary Haskell by a 
former marriage? 

]\Irs. Lusher. Well, Mr. Tavenner, and Congressmen, I gave some 
thought during the lunch hour to your question before lunch time and 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 1G9 

of course the letter that you showed me which was supporting the sale 
of tickets for the Moiseyev Dancers was sent out by the Hollywood 
Bowl Association at their request. And of course I felt and feel that 
this program that was, is exprevssed in this letter is something that is 
very worthwhile and I hesitated before lunch to discuss my own asso- 
ciation with the institute, with the American Eussian Institute. 

However, I have decided that I will do so because the earlier 
remarks that I made to you, you know, when I first came in this morn- 
ing about the need for this committee to understand the witnesses that 
appear before them is something that I feel very strongly about. Now, 
maybe I am being naive and perhaps nothing I say will reach you. 
Maybe you have such a stereotype in your own minds toward the people 
who come before you that it is of no concern to you — you know, the 
effect that these hearings have on people. But I personally feel very 
strongly about it and you know I feel that you have a moral respon- 
sibility for what you do as I have a moral responsibility for what the 
position is that I take ; and I feel that you know the people who have 
come before this committee and who have lost their jobs as a result of 
it, those who have committed suicide as a result of the pressure of 
such hearings as this are your responsibility. 

The Chairman, That is about enough of that. Wliose moral re- 
sponsibility were you talking about in the Malibu Station some time 
ago ? Don't give me any lecture about any moral responsibilities. 

Mrs. Lusher. So I would like to discuss, if I felt that I would get 
an understanding hearing here, the program of the institute. But 
perhaps I wouldn't get an understanding hearing. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have asked no question about the program of the 
institute. 

The Chairman. ^¥liat was your question ? 

Mr. Tavenner. My question was whether or not she has been 
known by the name of Rosemary Haskell as a result of a former 
marriage. 

Mrs. Lusher. Well, I am sorry, but I believe that I shall have to 
decline to answer that question on all the grounds that I have pre- 
viously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. You mentioned earlier in your testimony that you 
were glad to give us your present adress. It is the address given on 
this letter of April 28, 1958, is it not; 3115 Mimiesota Street? 

(V/itness confers with her counsel.) 

(No response.) 

Mr. Tavenner. It is up at the top right-hand comer. 

Mrs. Lusher. Mr. Tavenner, you know I believe that the document 
speaks for itself. 

Mr. Tavenner. Isn't it a fact that on April 28, 1958, 3115 Minne- 
sota Street, Los Angeles, Calif., as given on this letterhead, was the 
address of your residence ? 

(Witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Lusher. Well, that was my address and, as I said, as I stated, 
that I am prepared to talk about the program of the American Eus- 
sian Institute and my association with it, not in terms of naming any 
of the people who work with me in the institute, but I did work as 
executive secretary of the American Eussian Institute. 

Mr. Tavenner. That is the question you refused all morning to 
answer. 



170 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mrs. Lusher. For 10 minutes. 

Mr. Tavenner. I am glad you have changed your mind about it.. 
You have operated the American Eussian Institute as its executive 
secretary from your home over a considerable period of time; have 
you not ? 

Mrs. Lusher. No; just since last summer. We had a library at 
10241/2 North Western and when we were no longer able to keep it 
open, financially, we actually closed it down and stored the books. 
The program of the institute'is, and always has been since I have been 
associated with it, a nonpolitical one and an organization that has been 
interested in the program which is now the official program of our 
State Department, the question of cultural exchange between our 
country and the Soviet Union. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party from 
the time that you were elected the executive secretary of the American 
Eussian Institute up until April 28, 1958, the date of the letter that 
I referred you to. 

Mrs. Lusher. Mr. Tavenner, I must decline to answer that question 
on all the grounds that I have previously stated. I believe that the 
program of the American Eussian Institute stands for itself, and 
since it is one, which in effect, our State Department has also endorsed, 
it is one which Chairman Allen of the University of California rec- 
ommended to the Eotarian meeting last January or February when 
Mr. Hearst spoke on his trip to the Soviet Union. Dr. Allen stood up 
and said that he felt that in addition to the very fine program that 
the State Department was carrying on for cultural exchange he also 
felt that person-to-person contact and individual responsibility in this 
field was very important. 

And I feel that this is what I have done in the institute while we 
have been operating. And I personally feel that it is genuinely in the 
welfare and interests of the people of this country and I would like 
to see many more people work in such a program, and I feel that to 
bring people in who try to do this, and threaten them, that the way 
that has been done with me doesn't help matters any. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you also been active in the Ci^al Eights Con- 
gress of Southern California ? 

INIrs. Lusher. Well, I should decline to answer that question on all 
the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer in evidence a therm of ax copy of a 
letter bearing date of October 8, 1954, on the stationery of The De- 
fender, whereon it is stated that The Defender is the official organ of 
the Civil Eights Congress of Southern California. Mav it be marked 
"Lusher Exhibit No. 3"? 

(Document marked "Lusher Exhibit No. 3" and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. TA^^NNER, I call your attention, Mrs. Lusher, to the signatures 
of three persons at the bottom of this letter which purport to be that 
of the editorial board. Will you examine it and state whether or 
not you see the name of Eosemary Lusher ? 
( Counsel confers with witness. ) 

Mrs. Lusher. I believe the document speaks for itself. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you sign the document ? 

Mrs. Lusher. I must decline to answer that question on all the 
grounds previously stated. 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 171 

Mr. Tavenner. You will also see as the name of one of the editorial 
board members that of Elizabeth Spector. Will you examine it and 
look at it ? 

Mrs. Lusher. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. Was she on the editorial board with you ? 

Mrs. Lusher. I must decline to answer that question on all the 
grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is she the wife of Frank Spector ? 

Mrs. Lusher. I must decline to answer that question on all the 
grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. You will also, if you will look at the document, 
see the name of Don Wheeldin. 

Mrs. Lusher. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did he serve on the editorial board with you ? 

Mrs. Lusher, I must decline to answer that question on all the 
grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. On the date of that document, which is October 8, 
1954, were Elizabeth Spector and Don Wheeldin members of the 
Communist Party with you ? 

(Counsel confers with witness.) 

Mrs. Lusher. Mr. Tavenner, of course, you know that is a loaded 
question, as you know very well, and 

Mr. Tavenner. There is nothing loaded about the question. It is a 
direct question asking if you know that those people were members 
of the Communist Party. 

Mrs. Lusher. The latter phrase you used is certainly a loaded ques- 
tion. Naturally, I have to decline to answer it on all the grounds 
previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you also take an active part in the financial 
support of the People's World, a Communist Party organ in Los 
Angeles ? 

(Counsel confers with the witness.) 

Mrs. Lusher. Well, I am afraid I don't quite understand your 
question, Mr. Tavenner. 

Mr. Tavenner. Very well. I offer in evidence a thermofax copy 
of a letter bearing date November 1956, signed by a number of per- 
sons, requesting tinancial support of the Daily People's World and 
ask that it be marked "Lusher Exhibit No. 4." 

The Chairman. It will be marked and made a part of the record. 

(Document marked "Lusher Exhibit No. 4" and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine it, please, and state whether or 
not you see your name as one of those signed to the letter? 

Mrs. Lusher. I believe, Mr. Tavenner, that the document speaks 
for itself. 

Mr. Tavenner. I note on the document the name of Mrs. Rosemary 
Lusher. Did you sign the document ? 

Mrs. Lusher. I must decline to answer that on all the grounds 
previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. At a convention of the Southern California Dis- 
trict of the Communist Party held in Los Angeles on April 13 and 
14, 1957, a report was made by Dorothy Healej' which outlined the 
areas in which special work was to be done as detpi-mined by tbft 
National Committee of the Communist Party. 



172 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

I know you were not present; at least from our information you 
were not present at that meeting. But I wanted to call to your at- 
tention that one of the prime objectives in this area as indicated by 
that report was calling upon the rank and file members of the Com- 
munist Party to concentrate upon infiltration and work in non-Com- 
munist organizations and in mass organizations. 

Did that directive come to your attention after the date of that 
meeting ? 

Mrs. Lusher. Mr. Tavenner, I must decline to answer that question 
on all the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenxer. Weren't you engaged in that type of work for the 
Communist Party prior to that meeting? 

Mrs. Lusher. 1 am afraid I don't understand your question, Mr. 
Tavenner. 

Mr. Tavenner, Weren't you engaged in work for the Communist 
Party within various mass organizations over a considerable period of 
time before April 1957? 

Mrs. Lusher. Well, I must decline to answer that question on all 
the grounds previously stated. 

;Mr. Tav'enner. Was not one of the organizations that was organ- 
ized to advance the Communist Party objectives in this area the 
Southern California Committee to Repeal the Smith Act and Other 
Anti-Labor Legislation ? 

Mrs. Lusher. I must decline to answer that question on all the 
grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. 'Weren't you the secretary of that organization ? 

Mrs. Lusher. I must decline to answer that question on all the 
grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. I offer in evidence a thermofax copy of an article 
from the May 26, 1952, issue of People's World entitled, "300 LA 
unionists ask Truman veto of McCarran bill," and ask that it be 
marked "Lusher Exhibit No. 5." 

The Chairman. Make it a part of the record. 

(Document marked "Lusher Exhibit No. 5" and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Tamdnner. The paragi'aph which I desire to call to your atten- 
tion reads as follows : 

Opening remarks were made by Committee Secretary, Rosemary Lusher. 

Will you examine it, please, and state whether or not you were the 
Rosemary Lusher referred to ? 

Mrs. Lusher. Well, Mr. Tavenner, I would certainly support any 
action to veto the McCarran-Walter immigration law, and since it has 
become a law I would certainly take any action to repeal it because 
T do believe very sincerely that it is an undemocratic law. 

Mr. Tavenner. That isn't my question. My question is whether or 
not you were the secretary of that organization, whether you were 
correctly identified as such in that article. 

Mrs. Lusher. I am sure that in addition to the 300 trade unions re- 
ferred to there were thousands of trade unionists and many other 
Americans who have come out in opposition to the McCarran-Walter 
law. . 

Mr. Tavenner. Since you made that speech will you answer the 
question? . _: . 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 173 

Mrs. Lusher. I must decline to answer on all the grounds pre- 
viously stated. 

Mr. Moulder. On that question, to what portion of the Walter- 
McCarran Act do you particularly object? •_ 

Mrs. Lusher. Well, I think that the sections which restrict immi- 
gration, establish immigration quotas are not in the tradition our im- 
migration had previously been in. 

The Chairman. Previously been in — about three times as many 
people have come in last year under the newer law as under the old law. 
And the quotas are exactly the same. Quite obviously you are merely 
mouthing things said by the people opposed to the law. 

Mrs. Lusher. I do object to a law which deports people for their 
political beliefs. 

The Chairman. Yes ; that is correct, of course. Proceed. 

Mrs. Lusher. Wliether they are Communists or not, and this, of 
course, is always a moot question in this kind of deportation hearings, 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend the Fifth Annual Conference of the 
Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born at the Alex- 
andria Hotel in Los Angeles on March 19, 1955 ? 

Mrs. Lusher, Well, I would like to know what the pertinency of 
this line of qustioning is, Mr. Tavenner, if you don't mind telling me, 

Mr. Tavenner. I have asked you the question whether or not you 
were engaged in activity within different mass organizations and 
other groups for the Communist Party. 

The question that I am asking you here is whether or not you engaged 
in this activity, and I want to follow it with the request for you to 
tell us to what extent you were acting for and in behalf of the Com- 
munist Party, if you were working in that organization. 

(Witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Lusher. Well, Mr. Tavenner, I am not trying to be recalcitrant, 
I think I want to understand you and the members of the committee. 
I sincerely do, I may not convey the fact very easily, but I feel it very 
strongly, and I just cannot understand how this line of questioning 
that you are putting to me is pertinent to what you as members of the 
committee are attempting to do. You know President Roosevelt 

Mr. Moulder. May I interrupt by asking you what is your under- 
standing of what the members of the committee are attempting to 
achieve or do? 

Mrs. Lusher. Excuse me. 

(Witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Lusher, I do find you know in the Watkins decision 

Mr, Moulder. You made some reference to it. May I interrupt 
you? 

Mrs. Lusher. Of course. 

Mr, Moulder. Seemingly, having reached the conclusion or an as- 
sumption as to what you think the committee is attempting to achieve 
or do, 

Mrs. Lusher, Yes, 

Mr. Moulder. I am asking you just what is your understanding in 
that respect. 

Mrs. Lusher. Well, of course, I really don't know everything about 
the committee, naturally, but I understood that Congress authorized 
the committee on a very broad basis and that the Supreme Court said 



174 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

in the Watkins case that it was very hard to determine exactly what 
the committee was trying to do because it was so generalized.^ To 
attempt — I miderstand what the committee is supposed to do is to 
investigate so that it can pass legislation which will be desirable, 
you know, for the oountiy. And this is where I feel that legislation 
which goes into the area of association and what people believe even 
if we don't agree with what the people believe can be dangerous 
legislation not only for the people who may have opinions which 
are dissident, but, 'you know, for everyone in the country, because 
it creates an atmosphere that is a very fearful one. 

You know, when the early Christians were brought up before the 
Romans they believed in something which wasn't acceptable to society 
in those days. 

Mr. Moulder. I am soriy to interrupt you agam, but do I under- 
stand you to say that it is your understanding that the purposes and 
objectives of the coiumittee are to seek information so that we might 
be better informed in passing legislation or in reporting legislation 
for Congress to pass? 

Mrs. Lusher. Yes. 

Mr. Moulder. And that being so, in response to the question by Mr. 
Tavenner, our counsel, you challenged the question because you say 
it wasn't pertinent? 

Mrs. Lusher. Well, yes. 

Mr. Moulder. I do not understand your reasoning that ^ 

Mrs. Lusher. My feeling on it is that in the past— I cannot judge 
the committee entirely by what it does today, but, you know, by the 
whole past 20 years the committee has been in existence, that inquiry 
into this field, beliefs and associations, has not led to legislation which 
has been either good for our country or has been constitutional. 

The Chapman. Many statutes have been enacted as a result of 
recommendations from this committee. 

Mr. Ta\'enxer. Those that have been enacted into law are, I be- 
lieve, about 38. Legislation has been offered and has been under 
consideration in the last Congress which has not been acted upon 
of about the same number. 

The Chairman. Plus literally hundreds of administrative orders. 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, many of the committee's recommendations 
have been adopted and put into the fonn of administrative orders 
in various agencies. I have in mind right now quite a number of 

them. . ,r rr^ o 

Mr. Moulder. What was your last question, Mr. Tavenner? 

Mr. Tavenner. My question was whether or not this witness at- 
tended on March 19, 1955, the Fifth Annual Conference of the Los 
Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. She has not 
yet answered the question. 

Mrs. Lusher. Well, you see, this kind of a question in relation to 
what you asked me deals with the question of association, and it is 

my belief that i 1 1 i 

*Mr. Moulder. He is asking you did you attend it and probably he 

will follow that by other questions concerning what knowledge y;ou 

may have gained or obtained there which might deal directly with 

the question of legislation. 

Mrs. Lusher. Legislation which would accomplish what? 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 175 

The Chairman. Make people aware of activities that are not in the 
best interests of the United States, make people aware that the peace 
organizations they joined were not interested in peace but merely in 
Russian domination, et cetera. That is the purpose of the question. 

(Witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Lusher. Well, you see when you say "Were you there," and 
then in effect this kind of a question is really exposure of a person's 
activities just for the sake of exposure. 

The Chairman. Not at all. We have another purpose in mind. 
Did you attend this meeting? I am not asking you about anyone else. 

Mrs. Lusher. You see the Supreme Court in the Watkins decision 
does say that exposure for the sake of exposure is wrong. 

The Chairman. That is not what we are concerned with. We are 
not engaged in anything of the sort. Furthermore the Supreme 
Court didn't understand the question, and furthermore, I am not so 
sure they wanted to. You are entirely in error. Proceed. 

Mr. Tavenner. May I have a direction that the witness answer the 
question ? 

The Chairman, You are directed to answer the question. 

Mrs. Lusher. I am really sorry, I must decline to answer the ques- 
tion on the ground previously stated. 

The Chairman. I am really sorry, too. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you familiar with the California Peace Cru- 
sade ? 

Mrs. Lusher. Mr. Tavenner, I think that this is the same kind of a 
question. I don't like to constantly repeat it. 

Mr. Tavenner. And the purpose of it is identically the same, to try 
to determine the extent to which the Communist Party is endeavoring 
to carry on activities of this kind and what its objectives are. Will 
you answer the question ? 

Mrs. Lusher. But I do not really believe that the exposure of a 
person's activities in this fashion is right or constitutional and I must 
decline to answer on all the ground previously stated. 

The Chairman. We are not endeavoring to expose your activities 
at all. We are asking you whether or not you have been connected 
Avith these things in order to ascertain whether or not you can prob- 
ably give us answers to the questions that v/e would like to ask you. 

Mr. Tavenner. May I have a direction ? 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. 

Mrs. Lusher. I am sorry, I think I said I decline to answer the 
questions previously stated. 

The Chairman. Are you on the board of The Defender ? 

Mrs. Lusher. I am sorry, I must decline to answer on all the 
grounds I previously stated. 

The Chairman. You see, that brings us right up to what we have 
been talking about. If you had told the truth about it or had at 
least admitted that you were on the board — and I have every reason 
to believe that you were — then we could ask you about The Defender 
and what its purposes were and things we would like to know about 
it in order to determine w^hether or not there ought ro be legislation 
with respect to that kind of a publication. 

Mr. McTernan. Mr. Chairman, excuse me a minute. 



176 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

The Chairman. Surely. 

(Witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Lusher. The organization that I have worked with for the 
last 3 years, I told you that I w^as executive secretary of, the Russian 
American Institute program I felt was in the best interests of the 

The Chairman. Wliat about the magazine The Defender ? That is 
what I was asking you about. Are you on the editorial staff of that 
magazine ? 

Mrs. Lusher. I am sorry, I really — you know, I don't see the per- 
tinency of the question and even though you have explained to me 
what you feel is the pertinency of it I feel that I also have to judge 
in my own heart what the pertinency of it is. And that this is my 
responsibility, I can't merely accept what you say as being the 
pertinency of it. I have to also try to judge it myself. 

Mr. Moulder. May I interrupt by asking, would you consider it 
pertinent for this committee to secure information on how some 
people operate in this country to undermine our Government and 
to overthrow it by force and violence or by revolution? Would 
you consider it pertinent for a person having information, say, about 
sabotage or treasonable acts against our country, would you consider 
it pertinent for us to have that information from the witness? 

Mrs. Lusher. Yes, sir; I certainly would. 

Mr. Moulder. You say you are employed by the Russian 

Mrs. Lusher. I have been the executive secretary of the American 
Russian Institute. 

Mr. Moulder. American Russian Institute ? 

Mrs. Lusher. Yes. 

Mr. Moulder. While in that position in the performance of your 
work and the course of your employment, have you come in contact 
with representatives of the Soviet Union Government? 

Mrs. Lusher. Yes ; but before I answer that question I would like 
to answer your previous remarks. I personally do not believe in vio- 
lence of any kind any place in our country or anywhere, and I would 
have no knowledge myself of any conspiracy to overthrow our Gov- 
ernment by force or violence and would have no part in such a con- 
spiracy. 

My understanding of the Supreme Court ruling last year in the 
Smith Act cases was that the Supreme Court found no evidence of 
a conspiracy to overthrow the Government by force and violence 

Mr. Moui.DER. The point I am coming to now, have you any knowl- 
edge or information concerning the efforts of any representative of 
the Soviet Union or of the Commmiists while in this country to in- 
fluence or guide the course of the Communist Party in this country ? 

Mrs. Lusher. Well 

]VIr. Moulder. I mean, do you have any personal knowledge of 
efforts by a foreign representative of the Soviet Union 

Mrs. Lusher. No, I personally have no such knowledge or in- 
formation. 

Mr. Moulder. Have you ever discussed the Communist Party 
activities in the country with any representative of the Soviet Union ? 

Mrs. Lusher. The only area that I have ever discussed with the 
cultural representatives, the few that I have met in connection with 
my work with the institute, was strictly and entirely limited to tlie 
field of cultural exchange, entirely limited to that field. 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 177 

Mr. Moulder. Did you tell those persons who were discussing 
this subject that you were a member of the Communist Party over 
here or that you were not a member of the Communist Party in 
America ? 

Mrs. Lusher. Well, that would never come up because I never 
discussed any question except the question of cultural exchange. 

Mr. Tavenner. She hasn't specifically answered your question. 

Mr. McTernan. I submit that is answered, Mr. Chairman. 

Mrs. Lusher. I don't want to get 

The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you discussed with the editorial committee of 
the Communist Party the workings or the activities of the American 
Kussian Institute of which you are the executive secretai-y? 

Mrs. Lusher. Mr. Tavenner, I think that is a very loaded ques- 
tion and you know I have to decline to answer that on all the grounds 
that I have previously stated. 

Mr, Tavenner. Did you obtain the position of executive secretary 
as a result of any recommendation by any member of the Communist 
Party or any Commmiist Party unit ? 

Mrs. Lusher. Mr. Tavenner, that is again, you know, the same 
kind of a loaded question. 

Mr. Tavenner. You refuse to answer ? 

Mrs. Lusher. I have to refuse to answer it on all the grounds that 
I have ])reviously stated. I told you very 

Mr. Tavenner. You don't have to. 

Mrs. Lusher. Very honestly the program of the institute and its 
work in the field of cultural exchange, and you know I don't feel 
that you should ask these leading kinds of questions. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wlio preceded you as executive secretary of the 
Russian Listitute? 

Mrs. Lusher. Mr. Tavenner, I can't give you any names about any 
individuals. I must decline. 

Mr. Tavenner. Was the person who preceded you a member of the 
Communist Party? 

Mrs. Lusher. Mr, Tavenner, you know this is exactly the same kind 
of a loaded question and I have to decline to answer it on all the 
grounds that I have previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. In other words, you will not tell this committee 
anything with regard to the workings of the Communist Party in 
this area. That is what you mean, plain and simple ; isn't it ? 
(Witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mr. Moulder. May I suggest that Mr. Counselor interrogate the 
witness about the cultural exchange activities. 

You mentioned one, that was the dancers. 

Mrs. Lusher. Yes. 

Mr. Moulder. "\Yhat other? 

Mrs. Lusher. When Mr. Gilels was here. 

Mr. Tavenner. May I have an answer to my question first, Mr. 
Chairman ? 

Mrs. Lusher. Of course, I decline to answer on all the grounds I 
previously stated. 

When Mr. Gilels was here, we arranged a reception for him at 
Hollyhock House in Barnsdale Park and to which we invited many 



178 COMIMUNISM m SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

of the leading musical people in the community. Yon see, while he 
was part of the cultural exchange program of the State Department, 
he was under the — he was being handled by a music impresario and 
the Civic Music Association was handling his concert tour. And 
they, of course, they are interested primarily in the concert itself 
and not in community activities around it. 

The CHAiRMAisr. What does this association have to do with the 
dancers ? 

Mrs. Lusher. "Well, this was about Mr. Gilels. On the Moiseyev 
Dancers, actually the only thing we did was to send out this letter. 
The Hollywood Bowl Association mailed it out, and it was, really, it 
was unnecessary actually because what it did was to recommend that 
people buy tickets and, of course, they were all sold out long in 
advance. 

But when they came to Los Angeles, why, they were really lionized 
around the society people around the Hollywood Bowl. 

The Chairman. "VlHiat did your association have to do with it? 

Mrs. Lusher. We didn't have anythinsr to do. 

The Chairman. Wliat about the musicians? 

Mrs. Lusher. On the Moiseyev, we did send out this mailing piece, 
this letter. With Mr. Gilels we arranged a reception for him to meet 
the musical 

The Chairman. He was coming here and you used that occasion 
for a reception and invited him to come to a reception and invited 
these other people to come and meet him ? 

Mrs. Lusher. That is right. 

The Chairman. Wliat else does your organization do ? 

Mrs. Lusher. Wlien Mr. Kogan, the violinist, came also this spring, 
we arranged for him to visit one of the campuses, but unfortunately 
he had to fly back for a recording. 

You see, there is no governmental organization, unfortunately — I 
wish there were — that was functioning in the field of arranging these 
kinds of social engagements for these artists. I hope that there will 
be actually. 

The Chairman. What else do you inject yourself into? 

Mrs. Lusher. Well, when the architect, when the housing delega- 
tion came from the Home Builders Institute, we had a reception 
there at the Ambassador Hotel. 

The Chairman. They weren't even aware of your existence when 
they came? They came as representatives of their Government to 
inspect activities of the U.S. Government? 

Mrs. Lusher. That is right. No, they came to visit housing. We 
did arrange a reception for them to meet with some of the architects 
in the city. 

The Chairman. After you learned that they were coming, vou got 
hold of the architects and arranged to have them meet the housing 
delegation at a reception ? 

Mrs. Lusher. This is generally what we have done. We arranged 
for the cellist to meet musicians primarily and also to visit the UCLA 
campus. JSTaturally, they can't arrange these things themselves be- 
cause it wouldn't be polite to go around inviting yourslf to places. 
So it is helpful to them to have somebody arrange it for them. If 
our Government had a cultural exchange organization which I per- 



COMMUNISM m SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 179 

sonally think would be a very fine idea to expand the State 
Department. 

Mr. Moulder. What exchange on the American side have you pro- 
moted to go over to the Soviet Union ? 

Mrs. Lusher. I have had one really good idea. It didn't work out. 
We tried a variety of things. One I was very interested in. You 
know, California has a big fashion industry, and I thought when 
they had these fashion shows in the Soviet that it would be very good 
business for us and also good publicity, because the British did that 
and they sent a British fashion show. 

I talked to a number of the fashion manufacturers around Los 
Angeles about the idea of arranging a group of maybe even American 
models to go and show fashions. 

Mr. Moulder. Actually, have you succeeded in any exchange from 
this side ? 

Mrs. Lusher. No, we haven't. 

The Chairman. Do you receive a salary for your work ? 

Mrs. Lusher. No, I don't. 

The Chairman. Are contributions made to your organization to 
maintain it ? 

Mrs. Lusher. Well, yes, of course. I can't tell you the names of 
the people who give us money, but that was how we were financed, 
from people who were interested in the work of the program. 

The Chairman. Do you file any expense account ? 

Mrs. Lusher. In what way ? 

The Chairman. Accounting for the fmids received by way of dona- 
tions ? 

Mrs. Lusher. I have made financial reports of the little bit there 
was. 

The Chairman. Where do you file the report ? 

Mrs. Lusher. Well, you Imow we give reports to our board. 

The Chairman. Who is on the board ? 

Mrs. Lusher. Well, I am sorry, but I can't give you the names of any 
of the people associated with me. I have to decline on all the grounds 
previously stated. 

Mr. Moulder. Wliere is this located, this headquarters ? 

Mrs. Lusher. We were, as I said, over on Western near Santa 
Monica. We had a library that was open, the people could borrow 
books. But we weren't able to finance it and we have closed it and 
we stored the books, and actually we are not really — we don't have an 
office. I just use my home as an address. 

Mr. Moulder. Proceed. 

Mr. Tavenner, Are you now a member of the Communist Party? 

Mrs. Lusher. I am sorry, Mr. Tavenner, I have to decline to answer 
that on all the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

The Chairman. The witness is excused. 

Mr. McTernan. Mr. Chairman, we do not intend to make any 
statements to the press. We assume that since this is an executive 
session, the contents will not be released. 

The Chairman. Did you issue a statement before you came? 

Mr. MgTernan. No. 



a8253^59— pt. 2- 



180 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

The Chairman. That is a new device, issue a statement and say, 
"I won't talk," I want to apologize to you for being late, but this 
(rafllc of yours is pretty bad. 

Mr. INIcTernan. It is ; it is a real problem. Tliat is a good area for 
legislative hearings to solve. 

The Chairman. It is not the responsibility of the Federal Govern- 
ment. 

Mr. McTernan. Thank you very much. It was a pleasure talking 
to you. 

The Chairman. AVill you raise your right hand, please. Do you 
swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF REVA MTJCHA ZWOLINSKI, ACCOMPANIED BY 
COUNSEL, JOHN T. McTEENAN 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please ? 

Mrs. Zw^oLiNSKi. Reva ^lucha Zwolinski. 

Mr. Taatenner. "Will counsel accompanying the witness please 
identify himself for the record ? 

Mr. McTernan. Yes; John T. McTernan, with the firm of Mar- 
golis, McTernan & Branton, 112 West 9th Street, Los Angeles 15. 

Mr. Ta\tenner. Were you born on November 10, 1905, in Odessa, 
Russia ? 

Mrs. Zwolinski. No. 

Mr. Ta\'enner. When and where were you born ? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. I don't believe that that question is actually per- 
tinent to the questioning this afternoon, sir. 

Mr. Ta\^nner. May I have a direction that the witness answer the 
question as to where she was born ? 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question of where 
you were bom. 

Mrs. Zwolinski. I was born on November 10, 1904, in Russia, but 
not in the town that the counsel gave. 

Mr. Ta\t:nner. What is the correct description of the town ? 

Mrs. ZwoLixsKi. I believe you spell it K-h-e-r-s-o-n. 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you come to the United States ? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. Well, let me see. I believe that was in 1912 or 
1913, lam not too sure of the actual year. 

Mr. Ta\'enner. Are you a naturalized citizen of the United States? 

Mrs. Zwolinski. I am a citizen of the United States. 

Mr. Tan-enner. Are you naturalized by virtue of derivative citi- 
zenship ? 

Mrs. Zwolinski. Yes. 

Mr. Ta\tenner. From your father ? 

Mrs. Zwolinski. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. "\'\niat is your father's name ? 

Mrs. Zwolinski. Peter. 

Mr. Tavenner. And the last name ? 

Mrs. Zwolinski. Mucha. 

Mr. Ta%t:nner. Where did you reside when you first came to this 
country ? 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 181 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. New York City, I believe. 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you move to California ? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. 1948. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliere do you live in California ? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi, 5436 Lemon Grove Avenue, Hollywood. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. I am a housewife. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you held a position of an executive character 
in any organization ? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. Yes, from time to time. 

Mr. Tavenner. Let me ask you this : Were you the executive sec- 
retary of the American Russian Institute ? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. Over what period of time ? 

Mrs. Zavolinski. Well, on and off between the periods of, I believe, 
1948 to about 1954, or thereabouts. On and off during that period. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at 
any time during that period? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. I decline to answer that question. 

Mr. Moulder. May I ask a question ? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. I decline to answer that question. 

Mr. Moulder. Yes, I understand. How were you selected as sec- 
retary ? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKL Selected? 

Mr. Moulder. How is the secretary of this organization selected? 
Who makes the selection? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. I don't understand the question. 

Mr. Moulder. Of the American Russian Institute. Wlio deter- 
mines who shall be employed or designated as secretary? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. Well, I still don't understand the question. What 
do you mean, "designated"? It is a job, like any other job. 

The Chairman. How did you become secretary ? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. I became a secretary because there was an opening 
in the institute, and I remember that I came to Los Angeles and I 
suppose a friend or two suggested that I might seek employment 
in that area, since I felt I was qualified. 

Mr. Moulder. My point is, who has the authority to make that 
selection ? 

Mr. Zwolinski. I am sure I wouldn't know what you mean. The 
question is not very clear. I really don't understand the question. 

The Chairman. Wlien you became secretary, who told you, you 
were secretary ? 

Mrs. Zwolinski. You mean in the institute, who determined it ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mrs. Zwolinski. I was interviewed by a board of directors, I pre- 
sume they were. 

The Chairman. How much of a salary did you receive ? 

Mrs. Zwolinski. Well, I believe, I think it started at about $60 a 
week. It was some time ago, sir ; it is a little too difficult to remember 
exactly. 

Mr. Moulder. Who interviewed you ? You say tliere was a board ? 

Mrs. Zwolinski. A number of people. 

Mr. Moulder. How many were on the board ? 



182 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. It is awfully hard for me to remember. 

The Chairman. To the best of your recollection. 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. Six or eight people, I imagme, something like 
that. 

Mr. Moulder. Who were they ? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. I will have to decline to answer that question, 
sir, because I don't believe you have any right to ask me with whom 
I associate or people that I have known or groups of people that I 
have associated with. And so I am going to use the first amendment 
of the Constitution that protects me from that kind of inquiry, and 
I will also use the privilege and the protection against your asking 
me questions against my will which is given me under the fifth amend- 
ment. 

The Chairman. And you decline to answer for those reasons? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. On the first and on the fifth amendments, yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you, during the period that you were the 
executive secretary of the American Kussian Institute, from time to 
time meet with Communist Party groups to discuss the activities of 
the American Russian Institute ? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. This is very generally the same kind of question 
that I was asked before, and I will answer it in the same way, de- 
clining to on the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall an incident that occurred on May 18, 
1952, at the time that the American Russian Institute had a booth 
at the All Nations Festival in Sportsmans Park, 9835 South Western 
Avenue, Los Angeles ? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. YeSj sir; I remember that occasion very well. 

Mr. Tavenner. I believe part of the program of the institute in- 
cluded the placing of the Soviet flag. 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. No, sir ; that is incorrect. 

Mr. Tavenner. "What occurred then ? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. The Chamber of Commerce arranged booths of 
all the nations which were invited to participate in World Trade 
Week. We were given a map — I believe you would call it a map — 
outlining each one of the booths; and when I asked which one would 
be ours, the young woman who spoke to me on the phone and who 
had written us of course regarding that occasion, said that it would 
be such-and-such a number and it would have the flag of the country 
there. We found it there, and it remained there when we left. 

The Chairman. Is there a free port here in Los Angeles? 

Mrs. Zavolinski. A free port ? No, sir. 

Mr. McTernan. You mean for the importation of articles? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. McTernan. I think not. 

Mr. Ta\^nner. I desire to offer in evidence a thermofax copy of 
the May 19, 1952, issue of the Los Angeles Examiner and ask that it 
be marked "Zwolinski Exhibit No. 1." 

(Document marked "Zwolinski Exhibit No. 1," and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Tavenner. This article describes the occasion that you referred 
to in this way : 

Irate citizens yesterday broke up an attempt by Communist elements to 
infiltrate the start of Los Angeles' annual World Trade Week observances with 
Red propaganda. 



COMlVniNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 183 

Tlieir protests were leveled against a Russian booth at the All Nations Festival 
in Sportsman's Park, 9835 South Western Avenue, the opening event of week- 
long World Trade activities here. 

Decorated by a red flag with hammer and sickle, the booth operated for nearly 
2 hours under the sponsorship of the American Russian Institute which was 
cited as subversive and Communist by Attorney General Tom Clark in 1949. 

Displayed for public view under the direction of Reva Mucha, executive 
secretary of the Institute, were scores of pictures and pamphlets acclaiming life 
under Communism. 

Do I understand you disagree with that account of the occurrence? 

Mrs. ZwOLiNSKi. I definitely disagi^ee, because I think that a true 
picture would have been gotten from the director of the park and from 
the Chamber of Commerce, rather than from the newspapers. And 
that is an official record. 

Mr. Tavenner. The institute has been cited, has it not, as Com- 
munist by Attorney General Tom Clark ? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. "Well, there has been such a long list that I, 
frankly, am not particularly impressed one way or another. 

Mr. Tavenner. You were aware of that fact in 1952, were you not? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. I was aware of a great big, long list of all kinds 
of organizations. 

Mr. Tavenner. I say you were aware of that fact ? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. Yes, I was. 

Mr. Tavenner. You were also aware that it was cited as a Com- 
munist-controlled organization which was intimately linked with the 
Institute of Pacific Eelations according to the Senate Judiciary 
Committee report of July 2, 1952, were you not ? 

Mrs. Zwolinski. Frankly, I don't remember all of the mention re- 
garding that, but I do admit that I knew it was cited. I imagine that 
is sufficient. 

Mr. Tavenner. It was for the benefit of the record. I will also 
state that it was cited as specializing in pro-Soviet propaganda by 
the Internal Security Subcommittee of the Senate Judiciary Com- 
mittee, "Handbook for Americans," April 23, 1956. 

Mr. Moulder. While you were secretary of this organization that 
you have described, what were your duties? 

Mrs. Zwolinski. Well, the purpose of the American Kussian Insti- 
tute and the functions was a research and lending library, and I was in 
charge. It was used primarily by universities and studios during my 
period of association with it. And it was a question of cataloging 
the material that came into the library both in the Russian and in 
the English. 

The Chairman. Where did the material come from ? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKL From VOKS. That is the IJ.S.S.R. society for 
cultural exchange with foreign countries. This was a formal de- 
partment for such a purpose, and the material came through the mails, 
through the U.S. mails, directly from the Soviet Union, and 
placed on the shelves for the public. We serviced anybody that needed 
material, whether they were translations or whether they just needed 
the research material. We had film and we had pictures and books. 
There was a very wonderful children's art exhibit that came, and we 
exhibited it at the University of Southern California. It was a par- 
ticularly interesting one. 

Of course, the films were very valuable, and we very often had over- 
iBlow audiences to see these things. Of course, knowing that the State 



184 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Department in January of this year sigjned a cultural exchange agree- 
ment, it is very gratifying to know that the very purposes for which 
the institute had been established these many years is the policy of 
our State Department. 

The Chairman. Did they ever send you the film of all those slave 
labor camps in Russia that the American Federation of Labor has 
cataloged ? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. Not only that they did, but the American Federa- 
tion of Labor did not either, so there must be a paucity of those films. 

Tlie Chairman. Go ahead. 

Mr. Moulder. Did you receive any material from any source other 
than that which you have mentioned, reading material ? 

Mr. ZwoLiNSKi. On occasion, naturally, people would donate books 
to the library. They do that. 

Mr. Moulder. Did you receive and distribute any Communist 
Party literature? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. I am not aware of the Communist Party having 
any literature on the Soviet Union, certainly not as far as the institute 
was concerned. 

Mr. Moulder. Did you disseminate and distribute any Communist 
Party literature published in the country? 

Mrs. Zwolinski. Well, what would that have to do with material on 
the Soviet Union ? I don't quite get the connection. 

Mr. Tavenner. Make her answer the question. 

Mr. Moulder. The question is very simple, whether or not you or 
anyone else connected with this organization referred to as the Amer- 
ican Russian Institute distributed any Communist Party literature 
regardless of where it came from. 

Mrs. Zwolinski. Not to my knowledge. You mean issued by the 
Communist Party ? 

Mr. Moulder. Or dealing with the Communist Party. 

Mrs. Zwolinski. Dealing with the Communist Party as such ? 

Mr. Moulder. And its objectives. 

Mrs. Zwolinski. Not that I am aware of, no. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did the institute engage in the holding of public 
forums ? 

Mrs. Zwolinski. Wliat do you mean by forums, sir ? 

Mr. Moulder. Panels for discussion of various topics. 

Mrs. Zwolinski. No, I wouldn't say forums. We had lectures, 
which is different, I would say. We would have speakers on various 
subjects, but there wouldn't be a forum. 

Mr. Moulder. Speakers on the subject of the Soviet Union? 

Mrs. Zwolinski. On various phpses of the Soviet Union, yes — • 
specific things. 

Mr. Moulder. Did any member of the Communist Party or any 
Communist Party unit confer in the selection of the speakers on 
such occasions? 

Mrs. Zwolinski. No. 

Mr. Moulder. Any of them? 

Mrs. Zwolinski. No. You are talking about conferring with me, 
aren't you? 

Mr. Moulder. Yes. 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 185 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. Well, the answer is no, of course. I wanted to 
make sure. 

Mr. Moulder. Who selected the speakers for these occasions? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. Well, I am afraid that possibly I am responsible 
for most of them during the period that I was in the position that 
I was in. 

Mr. Moulder. And whom did you invite to attend ? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. It depended on what the subjects were. We tried 
to get as clearly an expert within the limits of what one is able to get 
without importing. 

Mr. Moulder. Did you pay some of them ? Would you name some 
of them? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. I would decline for the previous reasons men- 
tioned. I don't want to take any extra time of the committee, but the 
I'easons that I mentioned before, particularly a question involving 
any people in any way which the results of hearings of this kind 
have done before, I would have to decline on previous grounds. 

Mr. Moulder. While you were there, did any person lecture or 
address a meeting who was not a member of the Communist Party? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. That is really the same question. I am afraid 
I will have to give the same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. I assume then that you selected Mrs. Elizabeth 
Moos as one of the speakers as indicated ll^y this copy of a notice from 
the American Russian Institute. Will you examine it, please? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSiLi. I am sorry, I will have to decline to answer that 
question on the same grounds that I have given before, regarding 
any names of any people associated. 

Mr. Ta\'enner. Even any speaker who appeared on your program ? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. I think so. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is that because to do so might tend to incriminate 



you 



Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. The question that you posed, of course, is one 
of my reasons naturally. And of course there is another reason, 
that I don't want to hurt anyone and they might very well be hurt 
by being included as admitted by me in this hearing. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Elizabeth Moos is the mother of William Rem- 
ington, and there has been considerable testimony before our com- 
mittee as to her and the activity that she carried on for the Com- 
munist Party in New York City in connection with the Peace Cru- 
sade. So there is nothing secret about Elizabeth Moos. Will that 
change your answer ? 

Mrs. Zwolinski. No, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the document in evidence and ask 
that it be marked "Zwolinski Exhibit No. 2." 

(Document marked "Zwolinski Exhibit No. 2" and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Ta%^nner. I hand you another such program and ask you if 
it doesn't show Cyril Towbin as conducting a program on September 
21, 1947, and ask if you selected that. 

Mrs. Zv/OLiNSKi. Naturally the document speaks for itself, but of 
course if you will observe, sir, this is before my time. • 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes; it is 1947. That is right, and yon began in 
1948. 



186 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. That is right. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know that Cyril Towbin is an identified 
member of the Commmiist Party ? Do you know that ? 

Mrs. ZwOLiNSKi. No, sir ; I do not. 

Mr. Tavenner, He has appeared as a witness before this committee, 
though he did not admit membership. 

You withdrew or resigned from the position of executive secre- 
tary in April 1955 ; did you not? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. As I said, sir, I was with the institute on and off 
during the period tliat I had mentioned. I frankly don't remember 
the exact dates of when there were periods that ended, you know. 

Mr. Taat3nner. Since that period of time, since the period of time 
that you formally withdrew, have you been engaged in mass activi- 
ties for the Communist Party ? I meant to say in activities in mass 
organizations for the Communist Party in Los Angeles. 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. This is pretty much in line with the other ques- 
tions that I declined to answer, and I will so decline now for the same 
ground that I stated before. 

Mr, Tavenner. Are you a member of the District Council of the 
Communist Party 

Mrs. ZwOLiNSKi. Same question. 

Mr. Tavenner. For the Southern District of California at this 
time? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. Same question, same answer. 

Mr. Moulder. You say when you first started working you re- 
ceived a salary, as you recall, of approximately $60 a week ? 

Mrs. ZowLiNSKi. I believe so, 

Mr. Moulder. When your employment was terminated or when- 
ever you ceased or resigned, were you still drawing that amount of 
salary ? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. Well, it wasn't more, I assure you. There might 
have been a period in between when there may have been a little 
higher salaiy ; I don't recall too clearly. 

Mr. Moulder. Have you been associated with this organization 
known as the American Russian Institute since you quit working 
there ? 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. No, I have not, sir. 

Mr. Moulder, Do you know whether or not they still pay the salary 
that you received ? 

Mrs, ZwoLiNSKi, I haven't any idea of the present status of the Rus- 
sian Institute, 

I\Ir. Moulder. The record here, according to the testimony that we 
show, is that the person now employed as secretary doesn't receive any 
salary. 

Mrs. ZwoLiNSKi. It is altogether possible. I said it is altogether 
possible, because funds Avere never too plentiful. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

The Chairman. The witness is excused. 

Will you stand up and raise your right hand, please? Do you 
swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Pape. I da 



COMlvrUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 1S7 

TESTIMONY OF LEON PAPE, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
HUGH R. MANES 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your naiue, please, sir ? 

Mr. Pape. Leon Pape. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your last name ? 

Mr. Pape. P-a-p-e. 

Mr. Ta^'enner. Is there any abbreviation or a nickname by which 
you are also known, that is, abbreviation of your first name? 

Mr. Pape. Not that I am aware of. 

The Chairman. P-a-p-e? 

Mr. Pape. Like paper without an r. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden- 
tify himself for tlie record ? 

Mr. Manes. Hugh E. Manes, Los Angeles. 

Mr. Tavenner. Member of the California Bar ? 

Mr. Manes. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. "^^lien and where were you born, Mr. Pape? 

Mr. Pape. I was born in the city of New York on February 8, 
1925. 

Mr. Tavenner. Whei-e do you now reside ? 

Mr. Pape. In Monterey Park, Calif. 

Mr. Ta\tenner. How long have you lived in California ? 

Mr. Pape. It will be, in years, 9 years this month. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you lived continuously in California during 
that 9-year period ? 

Mr. Pape. Yes, I have. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you in the Armed Forces of the United 
States? 

Mr. Pape. Yes, I was. 

Mr. Tavenner. Over what period of time did you serve? 

Mr. Pape. I was sworn into the services in 1942, December, and 
served until March 1946. 

Mr. Tavenner. In what branch of the service were you ? 

Mr. Pape. U.S. Coast Guard. 

Mr. Tavenner. ^Vliat is your occupation ? 

Mr. Pape. I am a medical physicist. 

Mr. Tavenner. Doctor Pape ? 

Mr. Pape. No, I do not have a doctorate. I have a master's degree. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you give us briefly a statement of your formal 
educational training? 

Mr. Pape. Yes. I graduated Brooklyn Technical High School, 
served in the Coast Guard. Upon discharge went to Brooklyn 
College in New York City, graduated from there and then went 
to graduate school at the University of Southern California. 

Mr. Tavenner. In what field did you specialize ? 

Mr. Pape. Physics. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat degree do you hold ? 

Mr. Pape. A master of science in physics. 

Mr. Tavenner. A master of science? 

Mr. Pape. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. "V\nien did you obtain that degree ? 

Mr. Pape. 1953. 



188 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat has been your record of employment since 
that time ? 

Mr, Pape. From 1953 till 1955 I Avorked as a toolmaker and then 
in 1955 obtained employment in my field as it is presently. 

JVIr. Tavenner. Wliat year ? 

Mr. Pape. 1955. 

Mr. Tavenner. As a toolmaker ? 

Mr. Pape. Until then, yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. Until 1955 as a toolmaker, I beg your pardon. 
And since that time your employment has been what ? 

Mr. Pape. As a medical physicist. 

Mr. Tavenner. What are your duties as a medical physicist ? 

Mr. Pape. I work in the department of radiology m the hospital, 
vhere I am responsible for the physics associated with the use of 
i'adioactive materials and radiation in diagnosing and treating condi- 
tions. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Pape, are you at the present time a member of 
fhe Communist Party ? 

Mr. Pape. Mr. Counsel, I would like to indicate that I feel that 
the mandate of the committee, as I have understood from the liter- 
ature given me from the subpena, is such that I cannot find ground 
for the pertinency of the question that you ask me. I would like to 
further indicate that I feel that the mandate of the committee is so 
vague so that it is difficult for me to determine whether I am re- 
sponsible to answer. 

I would like, too, in view of these considerations plus the fact that 
the question that you asked me, I would humbly submit, is a question 
which requests information concerning my political beliefs and asso- 
ciations, which I feel are private information which I am not com- 
pelled to disclose based on constitutional guarantees. On that basis 
I will decline to answer that question. 

Mr. Tavenner. Let me make this explanation of pertinency to you. 
Dorothy Healey, the chairman of the Communist Party for the 
Southern District of California and a member of the National Com- 
mittee of the Communist Party, made a report to a convention of the 
district in Los Angeles in April of 1957, at which time she boasted 
of the leadership that her grouj^ of the Communist Party had given 
and supplied in connection with the H-bomb. 

It is the information of this committee that you have been utilized 
by going around to churches and other places and engaging in a dis- 
cussion, in one instance at least, under the title of "Doctor of the 
Scientific Phases of Radiation From the Use of the H-Bomb," and 
in opposition to the policy, present policy of this Government with 
regard to it. It is certainly vital to this investigation to understand 
to what extent the Communist Party here is succeeding in the boast 
and claim of Dorothy Healey as chairman. 

The question asked you "whether you are a member of the Com- 
munist Party," will be followed with questions as I have indicated. 
So I think you see the pertinency of the question from that explana- 
tion, do you not ? 

(Witness confers with his counsel.) 

Mr. Pape. I would like to indicate that I feel that the question 
still is not pertinent to any, as I can understand, lawful and legal 



COMMUNISM EST SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 189 

procedure of a legislative committee, I would like to further again 
reiterate that I believe that the mandate is so vague that I am still 
not able to determine my responsibility in this case. 

Mr. Tavenner. May I have a direction that the witness answer? 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. 

(Witness confers with his counsel.) 

Mr. Pape. I would still like to decline to answer on the grounds 
given and further on the fact that the question serves no purpose 
in the legal mandate and purposes of a legislative committee and 
that because this in effect questions my political associations and 
beliefs about which Congress cannot legislate and therefore the com- 
mittee has no right as I understand it as an arm of Congress for the 
purpose of legislation. 

The Chairman. And do you decline to answer the question? 

Mr. Pape. I decline to answer the question. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you part of the leadership of the Communist 
Party which Dorothy Healey said she had furnished in the fight 
against the H-bomb in this area ? 

Mr. Pape. I decline to answer that on the grounds previously 
stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of a professional group of the 
Communist Party, including for the most part scientists ? 

Mr. Pape. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. How many public appearances have you made in 
Los Angeles in the fight against the H-bomb ? 

(Witness confers with the counsel, ) 

Mr. Pape. I am not at this point able to say with accuracj^ in how 
many instances I have spoken on the question of radiation. 

Mr. Tavenner. I hand yon an advertisement bearing date of June 7, 
1957, of an important meeting about H-bomb tests to be held at the 
First Baptist Church in Los Angeles, and I see that one of the speak- 
ers is listed as Leon Pape, Ph.D,, Federation of American Scientists, 
You have already stated that you do not have a Ph.D. Are you a 
member of the Federation of American Scientists ? 

(Witness confers with counsel, ) 

Mr, Pape. I would decline to answ^er that on the basis of the reasons 
previously given. 

Mr. Tavenner. You do not mean to contend, do you, seriously that 
being a member of the Federation of American Scientists could pos- 
sibly tend to incriminate you ? 

Mr. Pape. If I may indicate to you wliy I made tbat statement 

Mr. Tavenner. No, I want to test your good faith in refusing to 
answer that question on the grounds, among others, of the fif tli amend- 
ment. That is all I am doing. I want to see if you seriously contend 
that being a member of that organization could in any way tend to 
incriminate you. 

Mr, Pape. I haven't stated that I am relying on the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Ta\t.nner. You have not? 

Mr. Pape. No, I haven't on the self-incrimination clause. 

Mr. Tavenner. Very well. Then I think yon should state it again, 
because I do not understand what your objection is. 

Mr. Pape. My objection is that the question requires me to answer 
questions concerning my associations and on the gi'ounds that I have 



190 COMMUNISM EST SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

previously stated, it is my iinderstandinjz: that the Constitution allows 
me my associations as a private matter about wliich Conpress cannot 
legislate. Since this committee is ostensibly inquirin^^ for the purposes 
of legislation, I can't understand the pertinency, and, therefore, I de- 
cline to participate in that. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I ask you to direct the ■s^'itness to 
answer. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. 

(Witness confers with counsel.) 

Mr. Pape. I would like to reiterate that I find that the mandate of 
the committee is so vagiie as to raise the question as to the pertinency 
of this question with respect to a valid legislative purpose. I further 
decline because the mandate does not give me the necessary grounds by 
virtue of vaguenass to understand and to accept a responsibility to 
answer. And further because the question violates my right to the 
privacy of my associations as guaranteed by the first amendment of 
the Constitution. 

Furthermore, while I am not claiming the self-incrimination clause 
of the fifth amendment, I do want to use the due process that is af- 
forded me. 

Mr. Tavenner. Let me put the question to you this way. Have 
you represented yourself as a member of the Federation of American 
Scientists? 

Mr. Pape. I would decline to answer that on the grounds previously 
stated. 

Mr. Ta-vtenner. Have you been guilty of deception of the audiences 
before which you have appeared in claiming that you were a member 
of the Federation of American Scientists? 

Mr. Pape. I would decline on the grounds previously stated and 
because it requires me to draw a conclusion which I do not feel is 
a proper 

Mr. Tavenner. A conclusion? 

Mr. Pape. Yes, sir. 

Mr. TA^'E]s^NER. Well, I don't think that could possibly be a proper 
expression of what has occurred. Tf you are guilty of deception, it 
is not a conclusion ; you know it. It is a fact or it isn't a fact. It is 
not a question of conclusion. 

The Chairman. Wliat representations were made? 

Mr. TA^^^NNER. I offer in evidence, Mr. Chairman, the advertise- 
ment that I have referred to earlier in his testimony entitled "An 
Important Meeting about H-Bomb Tests, Hear Leon Pape, Ph.D., 
Federation of American Scientists, Friday, June 7, 1957," and ask 
that it be marked "Leon Pape Exhibit No. 1." 

The Chairman. Mark it and make it a part of the record. 

(Document marked "Leon Pape Exhibit No. 1" and retained in 
committee files.) 

Tlie Chairman. Wliat is this Federation of American Scientists? 

(Witness confers with counsel.) 

Mr. Pape. I would decline to answer on tlie basis of the reasons 
previously given. 

Mr. Ta^t5nner. I also offer in evidence and ask that it be marked 
"Pape Exhibit No. 2," a thermofax copy of an article appearing in 
the June 8, 1957, issue of the People's World entitled "New protests 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 191 

prelude to bomb ban meet." In the last paragraph I find this state- 
ment which I will read if it is accepted in evidence. 

The Chairman. It is accepted. 

(Document marked "Leon Pape Exhibit No. 2" and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Tavenner (reading) : 

Scheduled to speak at the Friends' meeting were E. Raymond Wilson, national 
executive secretary of the Friends Committee on Legislation, and Dr. Leon Pape 
of the Federation of American Scientists. 

Did you, as early as 1957, give information which resulted in 
the listing of your name as tliat of a doctor and as a member of the 
Federation of American Scientists? 

Mr. Pape. To the best of my recollection, since I have no right to 
use the term "doctor," I have never given my name as a doctor or the 
title as a doctor to anybody. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you give it as a member of the Federation of 
American Scientists ? 

Mr. Pape. I would like to decline to answer on the grounds pre- 
viously stated. 

The Chairman. Do you mean to contend that if you admitted you 
were a member of this association you might be subjected to a criminal 
prosecution ? 

Mr. Pape. No, I don't mean to contend this. I am not in any way 
ashamed of any of my actions. 

The Chairman. Are you a member of this organization ? 

Mr. Pape. But I feel that the question as to membership in organ- 
izations properly is one that I reserve for myself to decide whether or 
not to disclose. 

The Chairman. Are you a member of this organization ? 

Mr. Pape. I will decline to answer that question as previously 
indicated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you appear at the Baptist Church for the pur- 
pose of making the address advertised in the exhibit that I introduced, 
exhibit No. 1 ? 

Mr. Pape. I would decline to answer that question on the same 
grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you speak at the meeting referred to in exhibit 
No. 2? 

Mr. Pape. May I see the exhibit ? 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. 

( Exhibit handed to witness. ) 

Mr. Tavenner. The last paragraph refers to you as being scheduled 
as a speaker on that occasion. 

Mr. Pape. Would you please restate the question for me again ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you participate as scheduled as a speaker on that 
occasion ? 

Mr. Moulder. What occasion was it ? 

Mr. Tavenner. The occasion announced on June 8, 1957, as "New 
protests prelude to bomb ban meet." As to the exact dat« of the 
appearance which he was to make, I am not certain. 

Mr. Pape. I would decline to answer that on the grounds previously 
stated, and because I believe the committee has no right to inquire into 
my beliefs or the circumstances under which I express them. 



192 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mr. Tavenner. In the various appearances that you said you made 
but you could not recall how many on this subject, did you explain to 
your audiences that you were a member of the Communist Party ? 

(Witness confers with his counsel.) 

Mr. Pape. I decline to answer on previous grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether or not 
you were counseled regarding your appearances, public appearances on 
this subject, by units of the Commmiist Party or functionaries of the 
Communist Party ? 

Mr. Pape. I must decline to answer that on the same grounds that I 
previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party now ? 

Mr. Pape. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party on 
Jmie8,1957? 

Mr. Pape. Same answer, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Ta\t:nner. Were you a member of the Communist Party June 
7,1957? 

Mr. Pape. The same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. The witness is excused. 

Mr. Manes. May I request of the committee that the name and the 
testimony of the witness not be disclosed ? 

The Chairman. The testimony won't be disclosed, I will assure 
you that, because the young lady will not have it transcribed imtil 
she gets back to Washington. 

Mr. JVIanes. May we also have the assurance that the name will 
not be disclosed ? 

The Chairman. As far as we are concerned, we will not disclose 
it. 

Mr. Pape. Thank you very much. 

The Chairman. Do you swear that the testimony you are about to 
give will be the truth, the whole, truth, and nothing but the truth, so 
help you God ? 

Mrs. Pape. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF EDITH WEINER PAPE, ACCOMPANIED BY 
COUNSEL, HUGH R. MANES 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please ? 

Mrs. Pape. Edith Weiner Pape. 

Mr. Ta\tenner. Will you spell your name, please ? 

Mrs. Pape. The entire name, sir ? 

Mr. Tavenner. The middle name and last name. 

Mi's. Pape. W-e-i-n-e-r P-a-p-e. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliere do you reside ? 

Mrs. Pape. 1190 Branhan Street, Monterey Park. 

Mr. Tavenner. Please state the place and date of your birth. 

Mrs. Pape. I was born in New York City on Aj)ril 6, 1924. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden- 
tify himself for the record ? 

Mr. Manes. Hugh K. Manes, Los Angeles, member of the California 
bar. 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 193 

Mr. Tavenner. Was Weiiier your maiden name ? 
Mrs. Pape. Yes, it was. 
Mr. Tavenner. What is your profession ? 
Mrs. Pape. I am a housewife. 

Mr. Tavenner. Our investigation discloses that you were at one 
time a WAG. 

Mrs. Pape. Yes, I was. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wlien was that ? 

Mrs. Pape. I served during the years 1945 to 1947 to the best of 
my recollection. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now in the service ? 

Mrs, Pape. No, I am not. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Los Angeles? 

Mrs, Pape, As my permanent residence ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 

Mrs. Pape. Well, I don't know whether you would consider my 
Army service as part of my permanent residency. I have lived here 
since my marriage, the greater part of the pemianent part of my 
residency I would say since 1949, 1 believe. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your educational training, please, 
your formal educational training ? 

Mrs, Pape, I attended the public schools in New York City. I 
attended, and received the bachelor of arts degree from, Hunter Col- 
lege in New York City, I attended the University of Southern Cali- 
fornia in graduate study. 

Mr. Tavenner, Are you a member of the Communist Party in Los 
Angeles ? 

Mrs, Pape. On the ground that this committee by its mandate is not 
legally in a position to ask me a question of this nature that would 
refer to associations, on the ground that the first amendment specifi- 
cally prohibits legislation in this area, and also on the fact that the 
mandate is so vague that it does not afford me a simple standard by 
which I may determine whether I am under a duty to answer this 
question, and further, since I am not, I cannot determine the perti- 
nency of this question as related to the m^andate as it is stated, I must 
decline to answer the question. 

(Witness confers with counsel.) 

Mrs, Pape, I would like to add also tliat I feel this question is 
impertinent to the investigation as I understand it. 

Mr, Ta\^enner, Where did you reside in May of 1945 ? 

Mrs. Pape. May of 1945? I believe that was the month that I 
enlisted in the Woman's Army Corps. I believe, to the best of my 
recollection, my residence was on Bostvvick Street in Los Angeles. 

Mr. Tavenner. 3807? 

Mrs. Pape. That sounds familiar, but I am not exactly sure. 

Mr. Tavennp^r. At that time, were you a member of tlie ( 'ity Ter- 
race Club of the Communist Political Association ? 

Mrs. Pape. I must decline to answer that question on the same 
grounds as previously stated. I cannot understand the pertinency 
of this question, and I feel that it is outside the province of tliis com- 
mittee to ask a question of this nature regarding associations, sinc6 
Congress cannot legislate in this area. 

Mr. Tavenner. At a meeting 



194 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mrs. Pape. And all the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. At a meeting of the Communist Party for the 
Southern District of California on April 13 and 14, 1957, Dorothj^ 
Healey made a very extensive report regarding the duties of the 
members of the Communist Party and what constitutes the Communist 
Part|7 line as handed down by the National Committee of the Com- 
munist Party. She reported that one of the most serious duties of a 
member of the Communist Party was to work in mass organization. 

We desire to undei-stand and to learn all w^e can about the present 
purposes of the Communist Party in that field, the extent of this work 
in the mass organization as set down by the party on a national level, 
so I want to ask you whether or not since April 1957 you have been 
engaged in any particular work in that field at the request of the 
Communist Party. 

Mrs. Pape. I must decline to answer that question on the ground 
previously stated. 

(Witness confers with her counsel.) 

The Chairman. When you say "I must" you mean "I do" ? 

Mrs. Pape. I would like to add also that I decline to answer on the 
basis that the question itself is so vague that I cannot recognize the 
pertinency of this question as related to the investigation. 

Mr. Tavenner. That is certainly a sound objection, if I have not 
stated it clearly, so let me ask you specifically. Are you now engaged 
in Communist Party activities within any mass organization at the 
behest of the Communist Party ? 

Mrs. Pape. I decline to answer the question on the grounds pre- 
viously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. But not on the ground of pertinency of the ques- 
tion? 

Mrs. Pape. On the grounds, all the grounds previously stated, 
including that. 

Mr. Tavenner. Well, in order to make the question more intel- 
ligible I think the only way I can do it is to go back and ask you 
about certain activities of that character which the committee is in- 
formed you have been engaged in prior to April 1957. For instance, 
were you a member of the Labor Youth League and engaged in work 
in that organization ? 

Mrs. Pape. I decline to answer that question on all the grounds 
previously stated. And for the additional reason that it is not 
related to any valid legislative purpose. 

Mr. Tavenner. The Labor Youth League is a Communist organiza- 
tion, as you know. 

Mrs. Pape. Is that a question, sir ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 

Mrs. Pape. I decline to answer that question on all the grounds 
previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Although it is not in existence at the immediate 
time. Are you engaged in any youth work at this time in response to 
any directive of the Cormnunist Party ? 

Mrs. Pape. I decline to answer that question on all the grounds 
previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. I offer in evidence and ask that it be marked "Edith 
Pape Exhibit No. 1," a thermofax o/ipy of an article appearing in the 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 195 

January 19, 1948, issue of People's World, entitled "Youth rally 
condemns UMT drive." 

In the course of this article I hnd this statement : "Ex-WAC Edith 
Weiner was awarded an album of Josh White records for returning 
the highest number of signatures, 34." Will 3^ou look at it, please, and 
tell us what signatures you obtained and for what purpose? 

(Document marked "Edith Pape Exhibit No. 1" and retained in 
committee files. ) 

Mrs. Pape. I decline to answer the question on the grounds pre- 
viously stated, and in addition I would like to add a further ground, 
that of infringing on my right to j^etition guaranteed by the first 
amendment. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you not engaged in a campaign witli the 
youth committee for the Independent Progressive Party in opposi- 
tion to universal military training in 1948 ? 

Mrs. Pape. I decline to answer that question on all the grounds 
previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you, on January 18, 1948, a member of the 
Communist Party ? 

Mrs. Pape. I decline to answer that question on all the grounds pre- 
viously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you also take an active part in the work of 
the Independent Progressive Party of California at the instance of 
the Communist Party or functionaries thereof ? 

Mrs. Pape. I decline to answer that question on all the grounds 
previously stated. In addition, I would like to add the ground that 
this infringes on my right to a secret ballot and to petition as previ- 
ously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. There certainly cannot be anything in the nature 
of a secret ballot about this. I desire to offer in evidence a photostatic 
copy of the Independent Progressive Party of California petition to 
participate in the primary election of June 1, 1948, with a number of 
signatories thereto, and ask that it be marked "Edith Pape Exhibit 
No. 2." 

The Chairman. Let it be marked and made a part of the record. 

(Document marked "Edith Pape Exhibit No. 2" and retained in 
connnittee files. ) 

Mrs. Pape. Is that a question, sir? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, I am now going to ask you one. Will you please 
examine the exhibit ? You will find at the end of it there is an affidavit 
over the signature of Miss Edith Weiner. Will you examine it, please, 
and state whether or not it is your signature? 

Mrs. Pape. I don't understand what the necessity is of my having 
to examine the document when you have already introduced it into 
evidence. 

Mr. Tavenner. May I ask that the w^itness be directed to answer 
whether that is her signature or not ? 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question as to 
whether or not tliis document contains your signature. 

Mrs. Pape. I am sorry, sir, I find it very difficult to hear you. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. 

Mrs, Pape. I refuse to answer the question on the grounds previ- 
ously stated. 

3S253— 5!) — pt. 2 5 



19G COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Pape, the committee's investigation in the 
past years has disclosed the existence of an organization known as 
the Servicemen's Defense Committee, the purpose of which was to 
oppose the dishonorable discharge of Communists in the Armed Forces 
of the United States. Were yon a member of the Servicemen's De- 
fense Committee ? • i i 

Mrs. Pape. I decline to answer on all grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend the Los Angeles County convention 
held in January 1957 ? 

Mrs. Pape. I decline to answer that question on all grounds previ- 
ously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. I believe I have asked you a question ol whether 
you are now a member of the Communist Party. 

Mrs. Pape. I decline to answer that question. 

Mr. Tavenner. To be certain, I will ask you now. Are you ? 

Mrs. Pape. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. The witness will be excused. 

Mrs. Pape. Thank you, sir, 

Mr. Manes. Mr. Chairman, may I respectfully request that the 
witness' name and testimony be withheld ? 

The Chairman. Will you raise your hand, please ? Do you swear 
the testimony you are about to give to be the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mrs. Blair. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF NAOMI CLAIEE BLAIE, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

JOHN T. McTERNAN 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please ? 

Mrs. Blair. Naomi Claire Blair. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you reside ? 

Mrs. Blair. 327 Laveta Terrace. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state when and where you were born ? 

Mrs. Blair. Mr. Congressman, I was brought up to be a law-abiding 
citizen. I have always felt that it was my duty to cooperate with any 
legitimate agency of the Government engaged in carrying out legiti- 
mate activities. After very careful thought, I have come to the con- 
clusion that this committee is an unconstitutional committee, since 
under the first amendment Congress is prohibited from passing any 
laws which would restrict freedom of speech, opinion, or association, 
and, therefore, I feel it is my right and my duty as a citizen of the 
United States, in accordance with the teaching of my forefathers, to 
refuse to cooperate w-ith this committee by answering any questions 
whatsoever. Therefore, I refuse to answer this question because I do 
not feel that it is pertinent to any legislation that could be proposed 
as the result of any investigation carried on by this committee, since 
the investigation has been primarily in the field of thought and 
opinion, an area in which it is prohibited that Congress should pass 
any legislation. 

Mr. Tavenner. Pardon me. Will counsel accompanying the wit- 
ness identify himself for the record ? 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 197 

Mr. McTernaist. John T. McTernan, Margolis, McTernan & Bran- 
ton, 112 West 9th Street, Los Angeles 15. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you born on March 21, 1902, in Berlin, Wis.? 

Mrs. Blair. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated, 
and also because, although this appears to be an innocent question and 
the answer to which would be innocent, it is my belief that, considering 
the nature of this committee, answering this question might lead, be 
a chain in a link, a link in a chain or circumstantial evidence which 
might tend to incriminate me. And, therefore, under the fifth amend- 
ment, which says that nobody may be asked to be a witness against 
himself, and under the first amendment, under which I feel you have 
no business to ask me any questions at all, since you are an unconstitu- 
tional committee, I decline to answer, under the first and fifth amend- 
ments. 

Mr. Tavenner. According to an investigation that has been con- 
ducted by this committee 

Mrs. Blair. May I smoke, Mr. Congressman? 

The Chairman. Sure. 

Mrs. Blair. Thank you. 

Mr. Tavenner (continuing) . It has received information that you 
were a member of the Zapata Section of the Communist Party. 

Mrs. Blair. Is there a question ? 

Mr, Tavenner. Is it true that you are a member of the Zapata 
Section of the Communist Party of Los Angeles ? 

Mrs. Blair. It seems to me that the answer to that question might 
be an innocent answer, but I refuse to answer under the first and 
fifth amendments. Again you are inquiring into associations and 
beliefs. 

Mr. Tavenner. The committee has information that there is in 
existence now in southern California a new organization known as 
the Southern California District of the Communist Party and that 
in this district there is a council, a district council composed of 62 
members; that there are alternates to district meetings designated 
by the various sections of the Communist Party and sometimes these 
alternates are referred to as observ^ers. Have you attended one of 
the district council meetings as an observer ? 

Mrs. Blair. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated, 
the first and fifth amendments, and also I believe, isn't it the — may 
I be permitted to consult my copy of the Constitution ? I think it is 
the fourth amendment to the Constitution which guarantees one 
against unlawful search. 

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects 
and against any unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated. 

The committee seems better informed than I do, and I think that 
before it expects an answer it should state to me what it thinks I am 
guilty of and the source of its information, the person who makes 
the accusation. Under the Constitution we have a right to know who 
makes accusations. Now personally I feel that freedom in our coun- 
try will be much better guaranteed if everj'body has a right to belong 
to the groups that they wish to belong to and to express their opinions 
freely. This was the opinion of my forefathers who participated in 
the founding of this country, and I have no reason to depart from the 



198 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

very wise instructions that I think my parents and my grandparents 
gave me. I therefore decline to answer this question under the first 
and the fifth amendments, as I feel it is my duty as a citizen, a loyal 
citizen of the United States, to refuse to cooperate with this com- 
mittee in its unlawful, unconstitutional procedures. 

Mr. Moulder. May I ask you, do you consider it a privilege as an 
American citizen, as a loyal American citizen which you claim to 
be, to join or belong to a group which would advocate the overthrow 
of our Government by force and violence ? 

Mrs. Blair. I know of no such group that advocates the overthrow 
of the Government by force and violence, and I do not subscribe to 
such opinions. However, I think this committee would do well to 
investigate some of the groups wlio have advertised in the papers that 
they intend to subvert the Constitution and that have even advocated 
secession from the United States. 

Mr. Moulder. You, a moment ago, asserted the right to belong 
to any group ? 

Mrs. Blalr. To any group that is conducting itself in a peaceful 
and a lawful manner. I have no knowledge of any conspiracy. Now, 
if this committee knows of any conspiracy or any acts that are illegal, 
then I would suggest that they bring charges, bring this to the atten- 
tion of the proper authorities and allow it to take proper legal chan- 
nels. We have laws to take care of illegal acts. But when a com- 
mittee investigates opinions, associations, then it is in violation of the 
Constitution in every day of its existence. 

Mr. Moulder. Now, 3'ou declined to answer the question ? 

Mrs. Blair. Under the first and tlie fifth amendments. 

Mr. Moulder. Under the first and fifth amendments. Under the 
fifth amendment you think that if you answer the question it might 
furnish information that would subject you to prosecution ? 

Mrs. Blair. It is very probable, considering the nature of this com- 
mittee and the manner in which they distort things; very probable. 
In fact. I have heard that way back in colonial days a man was 
executed as a witch because he admitted he was in the barn at 6 
o'clock at night milking liis cow. And somebody else, a psychotic, 
came along and said, "Sure he was in the barn and he Avas talking to 
the Devil, had horns. I saw the horns and the tail myself.'' 

Mr. IMoi^lder. How long have you been in California ? 

Mrs. Blair. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated. 

Mr. Moulder. Do you belong to any illegal group or organization in 
the State of California ? 

Mrs. Blair. I decline to ansAver for the same reason. I knoAA- of no 
such organization. HoAAever, I decline to answer for the reasons 
previously stated. I don't knoAA- AA'hat organizations you term illegal. 

Mr. Moulder. HaA^e you CA'er had any experience in making 
speeches ? 

Mrs. Blair. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated. 

Mr. Taatexner. The committee has received considerable evidence 
OA^er a period of seAeral years relating to the activities of the Com- 
munist Party in the organization and promotion of the Independent 
ProgressiA^e Party of California, and the committee has at ])laces noted 
the concentration of Communist Party efforts in that organization. 
The committee has information that you have been very active in that 
organization. I Avant to inquire from you whether or not your ac- 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 199 

tivity was inspired by the directions or counsel of a Conniiunist Party 
unit or any functionaVy in the Connnmiist Party. 

Mrs. Blair. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated. 
Mr. Tavenner. Have you met in Communist Party meetinos and 
tliere discussed with the leadership, loyal leadership of tiie Com- 
munist Party, what course should be pursued in the Independent 
Progressive Party? 
Mrs. Blair. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated. 
Mr. Tavenner. Was not the Downtown Club of the Independent 
Progressive Party tlie center of your activities in that type of work? 
Mrs. Blair. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated. 
Mr. Tavenner. Weren't you the person who selected the speakers to 
appear before that group ? 

Mrs. Blair. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated. 
Mr. Taa-enner. Wereirt you secretary of the club? That is, the 
Downtown Club ? 

Mrs. Blair. I decline to answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Of the Independent Progressive Party ? 
Mrs. Blair. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated. 
Mr. Tavenner. Weren't you active to the extent that you became 
a member of the State Central Committee of the Independent Progres- 
sive Party in 1954 ? 

Mrs. Blair. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated 
and for the record I wish to remind the committee that the Independ- 
ent Progressive Party was a legal organization. 

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to otter in evidence a photostatic copy of 
appointment of members of the State Central Committee in the year 
195-i of the Independent Progressive Party and ask that it be marked 
"Naomi Blair Exhibit No. 1." 

The Chairman. Make it a part of the record. 

(Document marked "Naomi Blair Exhibit No. 1" and retained in 
committee files. ) 

Mr. Tavenner. The first name appearing on the list of those ap- 
pointed is Nan Blair. Have you been known by the name of Nan 
Blair? 

Mrs. Blair. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated. 
Mr. Tavenner. Approximately 4 years ago the Independent Pro- 
gressive Party of California lost its right to be on the ballot because 
of the failure to obtain the necessary petitioners or the necessary vote, 
I believe, to qualify under the State law. Now after that time, did 
the Downtown Club of the Independent Progressive Party sponsor 
the Progressive Forum ? 

Mrs. Blair. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated. 
Mr. Tavenner. Isn't it true that the organization is still called 
the Downtown Club ? 

Mrs. Blair. I decline to answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Just a moment, but that it is the sponsor of the 
Progressive Forum ? 

Mrs. Blair. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to oiler in evidence a photostatic copy of 

the Downtown Club, Independent Progressive Party, report, Avithout 

a date appearing thereon and ask that it be marked "Naomi Blair 

Exhibit No. 2." ^ 



200 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

The Chairman, Mark it and make it a part of the record. 

(Document marked "Naomi Blair Exhibit No. 2" and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Tavenner. I desire also to introduce in evidence a second report 
relating to the Downtown Club, Independent Progressive Party, re- 
lating to a club meeting and showing the names of the various officers 
of the club. 

The Chairman. It will be made a part of the record. 

Mr. Tavenner. May it be introduced and marked "Naomi Blair 
Exhibit No. 3"? 

(Document marked "Naomi Blair Exhibit No. 3" and retained in 
committee hies.) 

Mr. Ta^tenner. I also desire to introduce into evidence a number of 
thermof ax copies of the Downtown Club News, all bearmg the same 
address, and a thermofax copy of a flyer, "The Downtown Club 
Forum Presents Jack Greenhill," etc., and ask that they be marked 
as "Naomi Blair Exhibit No. 4." 

The Chairman. Mark them and make them a part of the record. 
Let me see the newsletter. 

(Exhibit handed to the chairman.) 

(Document marked "Naomi Blair Exhibit No. 4*' and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to introduce in evidence also thermofax 
copies of the Progressive News of February 5, March 1, and May 14, 
1958, and two undated issues, but appearing to be 1958, marked 
"Volume 5, VI," and also "VII" and ask that they be marked with 
the appropriate number. 

The Chairman. They will be made a part of the record. 

(Documents marked "Naomi Blair Exhibit No. 5," and retained in 
coimnittee files.) 

Mr. Tavenner. I notice there is a heading on these various Progres- 
sive News reports "A Nonpartisan Community Club Dedicated to 
Peace, Freedom, and Equalit3\" Is nonpartisan an accurate descrip- 
tion of this paper ? 

Mrs. Blair. I decline to answer for the reasons, for the reasons 
previously stated. 

Mr. TA^^NNER. Isn't it actually a tool of the Communist Party? 

Mrs. Blair. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated. 

Mr. Ta\^nner. Most of these exhibits — and I am looking now par- 
ticularly at volume IV, No. (5, of May 14, 1958 — are signed "The Ex- 
ecutive Board of the Downtown Club, Secretary Nan." 

Does that refer to you as the secretaiy of that club ? 

Mrs. Bl/VIR. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated. 

Mr. Ta\t:nner. Weren't you the secretary of that club on that date ? 

Mrs. Blair. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated. 

Mr. Ta\t:nner. In addition to participation in the work of these 
organizations, have you not been active in the Civil Rights Congress ? 

IMrs. Blair. I decline to ansAver for the reasons previously stated. 

Mr, Tavenner. And the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of 
Foreign Born? 

Mrs. Blair. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated. 

Mr, Tavenner. Are you a nurse by profession ? 

Mrs. Bi^viR, I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated. 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 201 

Mr. Taatsnner. I desire to introduce still another document in 
evidence, a thermofax copy of the issue of July 20, 1957, People s 
World, in which Progressive Forum is advertised as having a speaker 
by the name of Nan Blair. „^„ +1.^ 

Will you examine it, please, and state whether or not you are the 
person referred to ? It is underscored in red. . 

Mrs Blair. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. May it be introduced in evidence and marked 
"Naomi Blair Exhibit No. 6" ? 

The Chairman. It may be so marked. . ■ a ^r. 

(Document marked "Naomi Blair Exhibit No. 6" and retained m 

committee files.) . • p g 

Mr Tavenner. Do you follow the occupation ot a nurse 5 
Mrs. Blair. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated. 
When the conunittee starts inquiring — - „ . „ . , ^ ,^^ g 

Mr Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist PartyJ 
Mrs Blair. I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated. 
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 
The Chairman. The witness is excused. 

Will you raise your right hand, please? Do you swear the testi- 
mony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 
Mrs. Silver. I do. 

TESTIMONY OE SOPHIE SILVEE, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
JOHN T. McTEENAN 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please ? 
Mrs. Silver. Sophie Silver. _ . i. j i. +t.^ 

Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that the witness is represented by the 
same counsel as the former witness. -n, • o 

Were you born on September 22, 1899, m Novay, Eussia? 
Mrs. Silver. Right. . 

Mr. Tavenner. AVliat was your maiden name i 
Mrs. Silver. Chelnick. 
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell it, please? 
Mrs. Silver. C-h-e-1-n-i-c-k. 

Mr. Ta\'enner. When did you come to this country i 
Mrs. Silver. In 1913. 
Mr. Tavenner. Were you naturalized ? 

Mrs. Silver. Yes. . -, o, • tvt -v^ ^ ^ 

Mr. Tavenner. As a citizen of the United States m New York on 

November 4, 1943? 

Mrs. Silver. Right. . 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation « 

Mrs. Silver. I am a garment worker. i -x ,1, 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you come to California to make it the 

place of your permanent residence? 

Mrs. Silver. I believe it was in 1946. ^r ^ a ^ 7 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you lived here continuously since that date J 

Mrs. Silver. Yes. . , . » , • 

Mr Ta\t2Nner. According to the committee's information, you 
^^re a delegate to and attended the Los Angeles County Communist 



202 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Party convention on January 5 and 6, held in Los Angeles on that 
date in the year 1957. Is that correct ? 
(Witness confers with counsel.) 

Mrs. Sil\t:r. I refuse to ansAver that question on the grounds of the 
first amendment. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you also in attendance at a convention of the 
Southern California District held on April 13 and 14, 1957 ? 

Mrs. Silver. I refuse to answer that on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. According to the committee's information, you are 
at present a member of the District Council of the Communist Party 
for the Southern District of California. 

(Witness confers with counsel.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Is that correct ? 

Mrs. Silver. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. The district council is the governing bodv for this 
district; is it not? t, j 

Mrs. Silver. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. At a meeting of the district council on July 27, 1958 
a number of controversial questions arose, did they not ? ' 

Mrs. Silver. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did not Dorothy Healey, on that occasion, some- 
what reverse her earlier position of April 13, 1957, relating to Hun- 
gary and other questions and by a minority report oppose many of the 
declarations of tlie national leadership of the Communist Party ? 
Isn't that true? " 

Do you understand the question ? It was a rather long one. I will 
break it down. 

Mrs. Silver. No ; I do not. 

Mr. Ta\-enner. Do you recall a minority report made on July 27, 
1958, by Dorothy Healey, to the action of "the national com.mittee on 
various questions ? 

Mrs. Silver. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you not oppose her and vote for the majority 
report which was presented in the form of a report by Eugene Dennis 
a fonn of a report by Bob Thompson, and then 'in the form of a 
report on trade unionism ? 

Mrs. SiLAHER. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. You were one of those against Dorotliy Healey, 
were you not, in that meeting ? 

Mrs. SiLA'ER. I refuse to answer on the same grounds, 

Mr. Taa-enner. Have you changed your position since July 27 ? 

Mrs. Silver. I refuse to discuss my business. I refuse to answer on 
the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat are the duties of a review commission of the 
Communist Party ? 

Mrs. Silver. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Weren't you a member of the Review Commission 
of the Juarez Division of the Communist Party in the years 1953 
1954, and 1955? ^ ^ 

Mrs. Silver. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 
^ Mr. Tavenner. Is it not the duty of such a commission to apply 
disciplinary action in accordance with the vote of the body? 

Mrs. Silver. Is that a question ? 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 203 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 

Mrs. Silver. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is your present address 319 Oxford Avenue, Los 
Angeles ? 

Mrs. Silver. Yes, it is. 

Mr. Tavenner. At meetings of the Keview Commission of the Com- 
munist Party, ai'e the members brought before that body permitted to 
have counsel with them ? 

Mrs. Silver. I refuse to answer on the same grounds previously 
stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

The Chairman. The witness is excused. 

Will you raise your rio;ht hand, please? Do you swear the testi- 
mony you are about to give shall be the truth, the wdiole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Miss Josephson. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF JESSIE JOSEPHSON, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
JOHN T. McTERNAN 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please? 

Miss Josephson. Jessie Josephson. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden- 
tify himself for the record ? 

Mr. McTernan. John T. McTernan, Margolis, McTernan & Bran- 
ton, 112 AA^est 9th Street, Los Angeles 15. ' 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you Miss or Mrs ? 

Miss Josephson. Miss. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where w^ere you born? 

Miss Josephson. Leeds, England. 

Mr. Tavenner. W^hat date ? 

Miss Josephson. April 27, 1919. 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you first come to the United States ? 

Miss Josephson. I w^as brought here, I think, in 1923 or 1924. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a naturalized American citizen of the 
United States ? 

Miss Josephson. I am a derivative citzen through my parents. 

Mr. Tavenner. You are by w^ay of derivative citizenship ? 

Miss Josephson. Eight. 

Mr. Tavenner. By virtue of the citizenship of your father ? 

Miss Josephson. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. What was your father's name ? 

Miss Josephson. I think I will decline to answer that, feeling that 
is an infringement on my right of the first amendment. 

Mr. Tavenner. I haven't asked any question regarding Communist 
Party interests of your father, but I do want to know the circum- 
stances of your naturalization, and I think I am entitled to receive it. 
I ask the chairman to direct you to answer. 

The Chairman. You can answer that question. I dir-ect you to an- 
swer that question. 

Miss Josephson. Would you repeat the question, please ? 

Mr. Tavenner. What was the name of your father ? You said you 
received derivative naturalization through your father. What was 
his name ? 



204 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Miss JosEPHSON. Julius Josephson. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where was he naturalized ? 

Miss Josephson. In Cleveland, Ohio. I am sorry, I forget the 
exact year — sometime in the twenties; I forget the exact year. 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you first come to California ? 

Miss Josephson. In 1947. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ? 

Miss Josephson. Boxer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Boxer ? 

Miss Josephson. Yes, carton boxer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you give the committee, please, a statement 
of your formal educational training ? 

Miss Josephson. I went to the 11th grade in high. 

Mr. Tavenner. The committee is informed that the Communist 
Party of Southern California is governed by a council, a district coun- 
cil composed of 62 persons, and that you are one of those 62 persons. 
Is it correct that you are a member of that District Council of the 
Communist Party ? 

Miss Josephson. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the first 
amendment. Secondly, I don't think it is pertinent ; and, thirdly, I will 
not be a witness against myself to incriminate myself. 

Mr. Ta^^nner. Did you attend the Los Angeles County conven- 
tion of the Communist Party held January 5 and 6, 1957, as a 
delegate ? 

Miss Josephson. Same answer as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. The committee has received evidence relating to the 
Communist Party plans in youth organizations. We want to know 
the extent to which you engaged in the conduct of Communist Party 
work within youth organizations. 

Miss Josephson. Same answer as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you not in early 1957 a member of the Labor 
Youth League ? 

Miss Josephson. Same answer as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you not a member of the Communist Party in 
early 1957? 

Miss Josephson. Same answer as previously stated. 

Mr. TA^'ENNER. Did vou attend the Labor Youth League convention 
of July 14, 16, 21, and 22, 1956, in Los Angeles ? 

Miss Josephson. Same answer as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you received direction or advice from a Com- 
munist Party unit or functionary of the Communist Party to pene- 
trate and work in civic organizations and mass organizations in the 
community ? 

Miss Josephson. Same answer as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you not been particularly active in the Com- 
munity Service Organization which is a non-Communist organiza- 
tion in Los Angeles ? 

Miss Josephson. Same answer as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been active in the Los Angeles Rosenberg- 
Sobell Committee? 

Miss Josephson. Same answer as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. And the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of 
Foreign Born? 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 205 

Miss JosEPHSON. Same answer as given before. 

Mr. Tavenner. The Independent Progressive Party? 

Miss JosEPHSON. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. The Civil Rights Congress ? 

Miss JosEPHSON. Same answer. 

Mr. Ta\'enner. The Wells Defense Committee? 

Miss JosEPHSON. Same answ^er. 

Mr. Tavenner. And the Eastside Defense Committee? 

Miss JosEPHSON. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. According to the committee's information, you 
were identified by Dennis Lancaster, an F.B.I, operator during the 
Smith Act trial in Los Angeles in 1952, as a member of the Com- 
munist Party. Was he in error ? 

Miss JosEPHSON. Same answer as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party in 
1952? 

Miss Josephson. Same answ^er as previously given. 

Mr. Tavenner, Are you a member of the Communist Party now? 

Miss Josephson. Same answer as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is your present address 27391/^ Dobinson Street, 
Los Angeles? 

Miss Josephson. Yes, it is. 

Mr. Ta\'enner. There was a very important meeting of the Com- 
munist Party of the Southern District of California held on July 
27, 1958, at which Dorothy Healey made a minority report and Pettis 
Perry made a majority report. Our information is that you were 
present at that meeting. AVere you ? 

Miss Josephson. Same answer as pre^aously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. The witness is excused. 

Will you raise your right hand ? Do you swear the testimony you 
are about to give will be the truth, tlie whole truth, and nothing but 
the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. MacNair. "I do. 

TESTIMONY OF AECHIBALD MacNAIK, JR., ACCOMPANIED BY 
COUNSEL, FRANK MUNOZ 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you please state your name ? 
Mr. MacNair. Archibald MacNair, jV. 
Mr. Ta\tenner. Spell your last name, please. 
Mr. MacNair. M-a-c-N-a-i-r. 

Mr, Tavenner. Will coimsel accompanying the witness identify 
himself for the record ? 

Mr. MuNOz. Frank Munoz, 112 West 9th Street. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. MacNair ? 

Mr. MacNair. I w^as born in Chicago, 111., in 1921, 

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you reside ? 

Mr. MacNair. 1235 West 68th Street, Los Angeles, 

Mr. Tav-enner, West 68th ? 

Mr, MacNair, That is correct. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ? 

Mr. JNIacNair. I am an unemployed laborer. 



206 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mr. Tavenner. When employed, you are engaged in work of what 
type? 

Mr. MacNair. I am a hiborer, working in construction. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Los Angeles ? 

Mr. MacNair. I won't answer that question, relying on my rights 
under the first amendment, the fifth amendment, and incidentally, 
I don't think that it is germane or pertinent to the investigation. 

Mr. Tavenner. The committee has evidence resulting from its in- 
vestigation that you were here at least as long ago as May 1, 1957, 
because at that time you were present at the May Day Rally sponsored 
by the Communist Party in the celebration of the Russian Revolution. 
Do you recall that incident ? 

Mr. MacNair. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that 
I have already given. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you present at tlie May Day Rally in 1957? 

Mr. MacNair. Sir, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds 
that I have cited. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of a labor union ? 

(Witness confers with counsel.) 

Mr. MacNair. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that 
I have previously cited. 

Mr. Tavenner. According to the committee's information you are 
presently the educational director of the Miscellaneous Industrial Sec- 
tion of the Communist Party in the Southern District of California. 
Are we correct in that statement ? 

Mr. MacNair. I refuse also, sir, to answer this question on the 
grounds that I have previously cited. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is Bernard Lusher the head of the section which I 
referred to ? 

Mr. MacNair. I refuse to answer this question on the grounds that 
I have previously cited. 

Mr. Tavenner. According to the committee's investigation, you 
were a delegate to the Los Angeles County Communist Party con- 
vention held in Los Angeles on January 5 and 6, 1957. Were you 
a delegate to that convention ? 

Mr. MacNair. I will not answer that question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. You were also a delegate, were you not, to the 
Southern California District convention held on April 13 and 14, 
1957? 

Mr. MacNair. I will not answer this question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is your principal assignment in the Communist 
Party now the canning out of Communist Party directives within 
the field of labor ? 

Mr. ]VL\cNair. I will not answer this question, same grounds. 

Mr. Taat^nner. ^'\liat are tlie present Communist Party objectives 
in the field of labor in southern California ? 

Mr. MacNair. I will not answer this quastion, same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party now ? 

Mr. MacNair. I will not answer this question, same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. There was a very important meeting of the District 
Council of the Communist Party for the Southern District of Cali- 
fornia and certain functionaries on July 27, 1958. Do you recall the 
occasion ? 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 207 

Mr. MacNair. Sir, I will not answer this question on the same 
grounds that I previously cited. 

Mr. Tavenner. But you were present, were you not I 

Mr. MacNair. I will not answer this question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Kaise your right hand, please. Do you swear the 
testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing i3ut the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. MOSLEY. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES H. MOSLEY, JR., ACCOMPANIED BY 
COUNSEL, FRANK MUNOZ 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please ? 

Mr. MosLEY. My name is Charles PI. Mosley, Jr. 

Mr. Tavenner. Spell your last name. 

Mr. Mosley. M-o-s-l-e-y. 

JNIr. Tavenner. It is noted for the record that the same counsel ac- 
companies this witness as the former Avitness. 

When and where were you born, ^Mr. Mosley ? 

Mr. Mosley. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of 
])ertinency. I don't think the question is pertinent here. 

Mr. Ta\-enner. Let me put it this way to you. Were you born in 
Dallas, Tex., on the 1st day of November 1927 % 

Mr. Mosley. I decline to answer that on the— I take the fifth 
amendment in declining to answer this question and I also take the 
first amendment, because I feel that this committee has no right to 
abridge my freedom of speech, my freedom to think, or anything else. 
So I decline to answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. In other words, you don't have to answer any ques- 
tion propounded by a congressional committee ? 

Do vou not reside at this time at 3319 Homeside, Los Angeles? 

Mr."^ Mosley. I decline also to answer that question on the grounds 
previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is not your occupation that of a factory worker ? 

Mr. Mosley. I decline also to answer that question on the grounds 
prevously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what formal 
educational training you have had ? 

Mr. MosLEY'. I also decline to answer that question on the grounds 
previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. According to the committee's investigation, you 
attended the first convention of the Southern California District Com- 
munist Party held in Los Angeles on April 13 and 14, 1957. Is that 
information correct ? 

Mr. Mosley. I also decline to answer that question on the gronnds 
previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall either hearing Dorothy Healey de- 
liver a report on trade unionism or have you read her report on trade 
unionism ? 
Mr. Mosley. I also decline again on the ground previously stated. 
Mr. Tavenner. Did you hear the report made by her or have you 
read it relating to the requirement that rank and file members of the 



208 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Communist Party must engage in Communist Party activities within 
various mass organizations? 

Mr. M0S1.EY. I give the same answer. I decline on the previously 
stated — on the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. You have engaged, have you not, in work in the 
Labor Youth League ? 

Mr. MosLEY. I also decline on the same grounds, the grounds pre- 
viously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you at the instance of the Communist Party 
or a functionary of the Communist Party endeavored to carry on its 
objectives within the Independent Progressive Party of California? 

Mr. MosEEY. My answer is the same. I decline to answer on the 
grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer in evidence a photostatic copy of an 
Independent Progressive Party appointment of members to the State 
Central Committee in the year 1954 and ask that it be marked "Mosley 
Exhibit No. 1." 

The Chairman. It will be made a part of the record. 

The first of the three names mentioned as members of the executive 
conmiittee is Charles Mosley. 

(Document marked "Mosley Exhibit No. 1" and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been active in the affairs of the American 
Russian Institute ? 

Mr. Mosley. I decline to answer that question on the grounds pre- 
viously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been active in the affairs of the Civil 
Rights Congress? 

Mr. Mosley. I decline to answer that on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Information of the committee is that you appeared 
on August 30, 1950, at a city council meeting where an ordinance was 
being proposed to have members of the Communist Party register 
and you expressed strong opposition to it. 

My first question is. Were you sent by the Communist Party to make 
such an objection ? 

Mr. Mosley. I decline to answer that question on the grounds pre- 
viously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. In referring again to the work of the Labor Youth 
League, were you not a member of the Educational Committee of the 
Los Angeles Labor Youth League in 1957 ? 

Mr. Mosley. I also give the same answer. I decline to answer that 
on the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party now ? 

Mr. Mosley. The answer is the same. I refuse to answer that ques- 
tion on the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

The Chairman. Will you raise your riglit hand, please? Do you 
swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, tlie whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Padilla. I do. 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 209 

TESTIMONY OF FELIX PADILLA, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
JOHN T. McTEENAN 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please, sir ? 

Mr. Padilla. P-a-d-i-l-l-a. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness identify 
himself for the record ? 

Mr. McTernan. John T. McTernan, 112 West 9th Street, Los 
Angeles 15. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Padilla ? 

Mr. Padilla. I was born in Puerto Rico. 

Mr. Tavenner. When ? 

Mr. Padilla. On May 18, 1907. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you reside ? Where do you live? 

Mr. Padilla. What do you mean, in Puerto Rico ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Here in Los Angeles now ? 

Mr. Padilla. 2116 Glendale Boulevard. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you currently a member of the Communist 
Party ? Are you a member of the Communist Party at this time ? 

Mr. Padilla. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of 
the first amendment. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you resided in Los Angeles County ? 

Mr. Padilla. Ten years. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you engaged in the work of the Communist 
Party in Puerto Rico ? 

Mr. Padilla. I refuse to answer that question on the first amend- 
ment, same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Has your work in the Communist Party been con- 
centrated or centered in the field of Mexican-American population? 

Mr. Padilla. Like I previously say, I refuse to answer any ques- 
tions like this on the grounds of the first amendment and the fifth 
amendment. 

Mr. Tavenner. As a matter of fact, in 1949 weren't you a member 
of the National Association of Mexican- Americans ? 

Mr. Padilla. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. I offer in evidence a thermofax copy of the Novem- 
ber 10, 1949, issue of the People's World and the February 10, 1950, 
issue of the People's World and ask that they be marked "Padilla 
Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2," respectively. 

The Chairman. They will be made a part of the record. 

(Documents marked "Padilla Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2" and retained 
in committee file. ) 

Mr. Tavenner. Both of these articles refer to Mr. Padilla as the 
Mexican- American National Association — as being of that association. 

Are you familiar with an organization called the Trade Union 
Action Conference for Peace ? 

Mr. Padilla. Like I say before, I am not here just on the grounds 
of my first amendment, invoking the first and fifth amendments to 
tell you, to say that I don't belong to any of those things, on the 
grounds of the first and fifth amendment I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you not a sponsor of this conference ? 



210 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mr. Padilla. Like previously, I say I refuse to answer any questions 
regarding to those type on the grounds of the first and fifth amend- 
ments. 

(Counsel confers with witness.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you familiar with an organization called the 
Trade Union Defense Committee ? 

Mr. Padilla. Again I refuse to answer on the previous grounds, 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence a thermofax copy 
of an article from the March 24, 1952, issue of the People's World and 
ask that it be marked as "Padilla Exhibit No. 3." 

The Chairman. It will be made a part of the record. 

(Document marked "Padilla Exhibit No. 3," and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of, or did you participate in, 
any of the meetings of the California Emergency Defense Committee ? 

Mr. Padilla. Again I refuse to answer on the same previous grounds 
of the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state whether or not it was the purpose of 
this committee to support the Smith Act defendants in southern 
California? 

Mr. Padilla. Again, I refuse to answer on the same previous 
grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. In Januar}^ of 1953 were you assigned to the West 
Lake Club of the Independent Progressive Party ? 

Mr. Padilla. Again, I refuse to answer on the same grounds of the 
first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Los Angeles Committee 
for Protection of Foreign Born ? 

Mr. Padilla. Again, I refuse to answer on the previous grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Marxist Institute of 
Los Angeles County ? 

Mr. Padilla. I refuse to answer the question on the same previous 
grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Padilla. Again, I have to refuse and decline to answer that 
question on the same previous grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

The Chairman. The witness is excused. 

Will you raise your right hand ? Do you swear the testimony you 
are about to give will be the trutli, the whole truth, and nothing but 
the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Katz. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF ELI KATZ, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
JOHN T. McTERNAN 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please ? 

Mr. Katz. Eli Katz. 

Mr. Ta-\^nner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden- 
tify himself for the record ? 

Mr. McTernan. John T. McTernan, 112 West 9th Street, Los An- 
geles 15. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Katz ? 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 211 

Mr. Katz. I was born on Au^^ist 10, 1928, in Brooklyn, N.Y. 
Mr. Tavenner. Where do yon now reside ? 
Mr. Katz. 827 North Benton Way, Los Angeles. 
Mr. Tavenner. When did you come to the State of California for 
the purpose of making this your permanent residence ? 

Mr. Katz. 1953. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you lived here continuously since that date? 

Mr. Katz. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your occupation ? 

Mr. Katz. I am a lithographer. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been a lithographer ? 

Mr, Katz. Approximately 10 years. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state what your formal educational train- 
ing has been ? 

Mr. Katz. I think that I am going to decline this question because 
I feel that it has no pertinency to any legislative purpose of this com- 
mittee, because I feel that the field of education is one particularly in 
which ideas are important and tliat the committee has no right under 
the Constitution to legislate in the field of ideas, and because I feel 
that giving information of this sort might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you familiar with the structure of the Com- 
munist Party of the Southern District of California ? 

Mr. Katz. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Taw.nner. Are you not a member of the governing body, that 
is, the District Council of the Communist Party for the Southern 
District of California ? 

Mr. Katz. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a delegate to the Los Angeles County 
Communist Party convention on January 5 and 6, 1957 ? 

Mr. Katz. I shall have to give the same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. And also to the California State convention of the 
Communist Party on January 19 and 20, 1957 ? 

Mr. Katz. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. The committee has learned from the proceedings 
at these conventions which I have asked you about the importance to 
the Communist Party of its contemplated activities in the field of 
youth. Have you been engaged in any Communist Party activities 
at the request of the Communist Party or any functionary thereof 
in this important field ? 

Mr. Katz. I refuse to answer tliat question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you not on July 14, 1956, in attendance at 
the Labor Youth League convention held in Los Angeles where you 
were elected to serve on the presiding committee ? 

Mr. Katz. I decline to answer tliat question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you not also present at the convention of 
July 16^ 17, 18, and 22, 1956, of the Labor Youth League? 

Mr. Katz. I still must decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you not nominated on July 22 to serve as 
Labor Youth League chairman of Los Angeles County ? 

Mr. Katz. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Our information is that you declined the nomina- 
tion. 

Mr. Katz. I have no comment. 

38253— 59— pt. 2 6 



212 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mr. Tavenner. I think you have anticipated me and you have 
answered. 

The Chairman. I didn't hear you. 

Mr. Tavenner, He said "I have no comment." 

The Chairman. I heard that. 

Mr. Tavenner. I would like you to state in all modesty, are you 
considered an expert on Marxism ? 

Mr.IvATZ. Well 

Mr. Tavenner. No comment? 

Mr. Katz. I will decline to answer that question, although I think 
it is rather humorous, on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Well, haven't you served as an instructor in a 
series of classes which began April 24, 1956, on political economy by 
the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Katz. I, of course, refuse to answer that question on the same 
grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you participate in the activities of the Los 
Angeles Committee to Secure Justice in the Rosenberg Case ? 

Mr. Katz. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Ta^^nner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Katz. Same answer. 

Mr. Ta\'enner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. The witness will be excused. 

(Whereupon, at 5 :35 p.m., Thursday, September 4, the committee 
recessed until 9 :30 a.m. Friday, September 5, 1958.) 



THE SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA DISTRICT OF THE 
COMMUNIST PARTY 

Structure — Objectives — Leadership 



miDAY, SEPTEMBER 5, 1958 

United States House of Representatives, 

Subcommittee of the 
Committee on Un-American Activities, 

Los Angeles^ California. 

executive session ^ 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to recess, at 9 : 45 a.m. in Room 229, 
Federal Building, Los Angeles, California, Honorable Francis E. 
Walter (chairman) presiding. 

Present : Representatives Francis E. Walter, of Pennsylvania, and 
Morgan M. Moulder, of Missouri. 

Staff members present : Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel, and Wil- 
liam A. Wheeler, investigator. 

The Chairman. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give 
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God? 

Mr. Wheeler. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM A. WHEELEE, INVESTIGATOR, 
UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES COMMITTEE 

The Chairman. Your name is William A. Wheeler, and you are 
an investigator of the Committee on Un-American Activities ? 

Mr. Wheeler. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. On the 2nd of September did you call the witness, 
Don Wheeldin ? 

Mr. Wheeler. I did, sir. 

The Chairman. Where did you make the call ? 

Mr. Wheeler. In the room adjoining our hearing room here. 

The Chairman. That is where the witnesses have been instructed to 
report to before they are called ? 

Mr. Wheeler, They have not been instructed to report there, sir. 
It's been made available to them to wait there until they are called. 

The Chairman. That is the room in which all of the witnesses who 
have testified have been meeting ? 

Mr. Wheeler. That is correct. 



1 Released by the conmiittee and ordered to be printed. 

213 



214 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

The Chairman. Did Mr. Wheeldin answer the call ? 

Mr. Wheeler. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you know Wheeldin by sight ? 

Mr. Wheeler. I do not. Oh, yes, I do. 

The Chairman. Did you see him there ? 

Mr. Wheeler. No, I did not. 

The Chairman. Was he there ? 

Mr. Wheeler. No, sir. In response to calling Mr. "^Vlieeldin, Mr. 
Al Wirin responded to the call, as well as another attorney, Loren 
Miller. 

The Chairman. Did they make any explanation about his where- 
abouts ? 

Mr. Wheeler. Not to me, sir, no. I was told that he was not pres- 
ent, but where he was they did not say. 

The Chairman. At this point we will introduce the subpoena 
served on such and such a day on this man. 

Mr. Tavenner. It was served the 81st day of July. 

The Chairman. And pursuant to which his two attorneys appeared 
at the hearing. 

Mr. Tavenner. May the exhibit be marked "Donald Wheeldin Ex- 
hibit No. 1." 

(Donald "Wlieeldin Exhibit No. 1 consists of the subpena and the 
return thereon.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Jerry Atinsky. 

The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand, please, and swear 
the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Atinsky. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF JERRY ATINSKY, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
SEYMOUR MANDEL 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please, sir ? 

Mr. Atinsky. Jerry Atinsky. 

Mr. Ta\t:nner. It is noted that the witness is accompanied by coun- 
sel. Will he please identify himself for the record ? 

Mr. Mandel. The witness' counsel is Seymour Mandel. 

The Chairman. I did not get the witness' name. 

Mr. Mandel. Jerry Atinsky, and I would like to make a request that 
the name of the witness not be divulged to the press in view of the 
statement that you, the chairman, made yesterday, that you wished to 
protect the names of the witnesses. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Atinsky ? 

Mr. Atinsky. October 9, 1917, Milwaukee, Wis. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ? 

Mr. Atinsky. Parking lot operator, although you know that, be- 
cause I was served on the job. 

The Chairman. We don't Imow that. 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you first come to California to make it 
the place of your permanent residence ? 

Mr. Atinsky. I came in 1936. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your for- 
mal educational training has been ? 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 215 

Mr. Atinsky. Three years high school. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you served in the Armed Forces of the United 

States. 

Mr. Atinsky. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. Over wliat period of time ? 

Mr. Atinsky. 1941 to 1945, 31^ years in the Navy. 

Mr. Tavenner. You received an honorable discharge ? 

Mr. Atinsky. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Atinsky, it is the committee's information that 
you are at this time a member of the District Council of the Commu- 
nist Party for the Southern District of California. Is that correct? 

Mr. Atinsky. I decline to answer this question on the following 
grounds : The first amendment, the fourth, the fifth amendment, the 
sixth, the ninth, the tenth amendment and the lack of pertinency. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether you 
know the present membership of the Coirmiunist Party in the South- 
ern District of California ? 

Mr. Atinsky. I decline to answer on the same groimds. 

Mr. Mandel. May it be stipulated at this time that the additional 
grounds for each declination will be the same as originally stated, 
word for word ? 

The Chairman. Yes, it will be stipulated that when the witness 
declines to answer the question, the reasons for the declination are 
those originally stated. 

Mr. Mandel. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend as a delegate the Los Angeles 
County Communist Party convention held in Los Angeles in January 
of 1957? 

Mr. Atinsky. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend a convention of the Communist 
Party of the Southern District of the State of California held on 
April 13 and 14, 1957, in Los Angeles ? 

Mr. Atinsky. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. It is the committee's information that Dorothy 
Healey, chairman of the Communist Party for the Southern District 
of California, made a report at that convention — did you hear the re- 
port or have you read it since that convention ? 

Mr. Atinsky. I decline to answer on the same gromids. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you aware of the action taken by Dorothy Hea- 
ley in the convention in soft-pedaling the Hungarian question ? 

Mr. Atinsky. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you later attend a meeting of the district coun- 
cil on July 27, 1958, in which her position had been largely reversed on 
that question ? 

Mr. Atinsky. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. The committee does not understand that you were 
present at that meeting, but I want to know wliether or not you learned 
of tlie action that Avas taken. That is, did you learn either on a section 
level or any other level of the action tliat was taken at the meeting of 
Julv27, 1958? 

Mr. Atinsky. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. In addition to your occupation that you described 
as being a parking lot owner 



216 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mr. Mandel. Operator. 

Mr. Tavenner. — operator, lias the Communist Party utilized your 
services over a period of years in entertaining Communist Party 
groups or organizations being sponsored by the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Atinsky. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. You are a folk singer, are you not ? 

Mr. Atinsky. I decline to answer on the same gromids. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you participate in "Songs for Peace and Kus- 
sia" program sponsored by the Southern California Peace Crusade on 
February 21, 1954, at the Park Manor, 607 S. Western Avenue ? 

Mr. Atinsky. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you entertain at a function held on March 28, 
1953, at 3251/2 South Union Avenue sponsored by the Echo Park 
Chapter of the Civil Eights Congress ? 

Mr. Atinsky. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. You were at that date, that is in 1953, a member of 
the Echo Park Chapter of the Civil Rights Congress, were you not ? 

Mr. Atinsky. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you entertain at a meeting at 3670 Colonial 
Avenue, West Los Angeles, on July 10, 1954, the purpose of which 
was to meet the Smith Act defendants ? 

Mr. Atinsky. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you receive directions or encouragement from 
any Communist Party unit or functionary of the Communist Party to 
take part in the work of the Los Angeles Rosenberg- Sobell Com- 
mittee ? 

Mr. Atinsky. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you not entertain at the West Lake Chapter of 
the Los Angeles Rosenberg-Sobell Committee held on March 6, 1954? 

Mr. Atinsky. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you become active in the Independent Pro- 
gressive Party of California as a part of your Communist Party 
duties ? 

Mr. Atinsky. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you entertain at a meeting sponsored by the 
Independent Progressive Party of Los Angeles at the Cosmopolitan 
Hotel, 360 South West Lake Avenue, Los Angeles, where the meet- 
ing discussed the topic of Guatemala and peace ? 

Mr. Atinsky. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you take part, by way of entertaining, in a 
meeting held on July 10, 1954, at Venice, California, in a meeting en- 
titled, "Greet the Smith Act Defendants on Eve of Appeal," where 
funds were being raised for the Smith Act defendants? 

Mr. Atinsky. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is there a branch of the Arts, Sciences and Pro- 
fessions Council known as the Song Makers of that organization? 

Mr. Atinsky. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of it ? 

Mr. Atinsky. I refuse to answer on the same gromids. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence tliermofax copy 
of a program of the First Unitarian Church of Los Angeles for 
November 25, 1956, showing Jerry Atinsky on the program held on 
that occasion. 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 217 

The Chairman. I just received a letter from somebody mentioning 
that church. Is that located at 2936 West 8th Street, Los Angeles? 
It does not matter. Mark that and make it a part of the record. 

(Document marked "Atinsky Exhibit No. 1," and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Tavenner. I offer in evidence, and ask that it be marked as 
"Atinsky Exhibit No. 2," a thermofax copy of a flyer advertising 
songs by the Song Makers of the Arts, Sciences and Professions Coun- 
cil of Southern California, featuring Jerry Atinsky and others. 

The Chairman. It will be made a part of the record. 

(Document marked "Atinsky Exhibit No. 2," and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine the exhibit, please, and state 
whether or not you performed at the time indicated by the flyer ? 

Mr. Atinsky. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Song Makers of the Arts, 
Sciences and Professions Council at the time and date of that exhibit ? 

Mr. Atinsky. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you not also entertain for the East Hollywood 
Civil Eights Congress on January 22, 1955 ? 

Mr. Atinsky. I refuse to answer on the same gromids. 

Mr. Ta^^nner. I asked you a question a little while ago regarding 
your connection with the Rosenberg-Sobell Committee of Los An- 
geles, Did you not participate in community singing for the bene- 
fit of that committeee on April 26, 1956 ? 

Mr. Atinsky. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer in evidence, and ask that it be 
marked "Atinsky Exhibit No. 3," a thermofax copy of the April 26, 
1956, issue of the People's World. This article is entitled, " 'Commu- 
nity Sing' to Aid Sobell Fight." 

(Document marked "Atinsky Exhibit No. 3," and retained in com- 
mittee files. ) 

Mr. Tavenner. The article is as follows : 

A "Community Sing" to aid the fight to free Morton Sobell co-defendant 
with Ethel and Julius Rosenberg in the trumped-up "spy" trial and now a 
prisoner at Alcatraz, will be held here May 5. 

The slug to be led by Jerry Atinsky and others, will be held at 8729 Hollo- 
way dr. 

Did you participate in that program ? 

Mr. Atinsky. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee whether or not as part of 
its plan, of the Communist Party's infiltration into various strata of 
society in this community, it is the plan to use Communist Party mem- 
bers gifted in entertainment to perform on various occasions ? 

Mr. Atinsky. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are Communist Party members talented in regard 
to entertainment used for the purpose of raising funds for Commu- 
nist Party purposes in this area? 

Mr. Atinsky. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. I believe earlier in my questioning I indicated that, 
according to the committee's information, you were not present on 
July 27, 1958, at the meeting of the district council. I find I am in 
error in that and that, according to the committee's information, you 



218 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

were present. Therefore, I want to ask you whether or not that is 
correct, 

Mr. Atinsky. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr, Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Atinsky. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman, 

The Chairman. The witness is excused. 

Will you raise your right hand, please? Do you swear the testimony 
you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 
the truth, so help you God ? 

Mrs, Btler, I do. 

The Chairman. Sit down, please. 

TESTIMONY OF MARGARETE ANN BYLER, ACCOMPANIED BY 
COUNSEL, SEYMOUR MANDEL 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name ? 

Mrs. Byler. Margarete Byler. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you also known by the name Ann ? 

Mrs. Byler. Yes ; that is my nickname, 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden- 
tify himself for the record ? 

Mr, Mandel, Witness's counsel is Seymour Mandel. Excuse me. 
And counsel makes the same request, that the name of this witness not 
be divulged by the committee nor its staff. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Tavenner. "Wliere do you reside? 

Mrs. Byler. 999 >7orth Madison Avenue, Pasadena. 

Mr, Tavenner, "V^^Ien and where were you born ? 

Mrs. Byler. I decline to answer the question on the basis of the 
fifth amendment. 

Mr. Taa^nner. Were you born in Germany ? 

Mr. Mandel. Would you permit her to give her grounds of declina- 
tion? 

Mr. Ta\t:nner. I thought she had finished. 

]Mrs. Byler. On account of the first amendment, the fourth, the 
fifth, the sixth, ninth, and the tenth. 

Mr. Tavenner. Isn't it a fact that you were born in Germany ? 

Mrs. Byler. I have to decline on the same basis to answer the 
question. 

Mr. ]VLa.ndel. And counsel requests that the same stipulation as to 
the prior witness be incorporated herein, that all the grounds are 
accepted as if repeated word for word. 

The Chairman. Yes ; let that be understood. 

Mr. IVIandel. Thank you. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a naturalized American citizen ? 

Mrs. Byler. I have to decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. As a matter of fact, were you not born under the 
name of Margarete Ann Haller on June 14, 1909, in Hamuthsachsen, 
Germany ? 

Mrs. Byler. I decline to answer all these questions on the same 
grounds as I stated before. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you not naturalized as a citizen of the United 
States in Los Angeles on July 12, 1940 ? 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 219 

Mrs.^ Byler. I decline on the same grounds as before. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is it not also a fact that you were a member of the 
Communist Party before the dale of your naturalization? 

Mrs. Byler. 1 decline to answer on the same grounds as stated 
before. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend a meeting of tlie Southern Cali- 
fonna District convention of the Communist Party held April 13 and 
14, 1957, in Los Angeles ? 

Mrs. Byler. I decline to answer the question on the basis as stated 
before. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you not been assigned to carry out the Com- 
munist Party duty of working within the Independent Progressive 
Party of California and various community organizations? 

Mrs. Byler. I decline to answer on the same grounds as stated 
before. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence a photostatic 
copy of the Independent Progressive Party of California petition 
to participate m the primary election of June 1, 1948, and ask it be 
marked "Byler Exhibit No. 1.'' 

The Chairman. Make it a part of the record. 

Mr. Mandel. I v>'ould like to register an objection to the introduc- 
tion on the ground that it is irrelevant and immaterial. 

The Chairman. All right. 

(Document marked "Byler Exhibit No. 1," and retained in com- 
mittee tiles.) 

Mr. Tavenner. I will ask the witness to examine the affidavit 
appearing at the end of tlie petition over the name of Mrs. Margarete 
Byler and ask whether or not that is her signature. 

Mrs. Byler. I decline on the same basis as stated before. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you circulate that petition ? 

Mrs. Byler. I have to repeat, declining to answer on the grounds 
as stated before. 

Mr. Taa-enner. Were you active in the formation of the Inde- 
pendent Progressive Party in the State of California ? 

Mrs. Byler. I decline on the same basis as stated before. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you not accept as a Communist Party assio-n- 
inent participation in the Stockholm Peace Petition drive during the 
year 1950? ^ 

Mrs. Byler. I have to decline on the same basis as stated before. 

Mr. Tavenner. I offer in evidence, Mr. Chairman, a thermofax copy 
of an excerpt from the August 10, 1950, issue of the People's World 
and ask that it be marked "Byler Exhibit No. 2." It refers to the 
activity of Ann Byler, Wheeldin, and others. 

The Chairman. Make it a part of the record. 

Mr. Mandel. I object on the ground previously stated. 

The Chairman. All right. 

(Document marked "Byler Exhibit No. 2," and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party now ? 

Mrs. Byler. I decline to answer the question on the same basis as 
stated before. 

Mr. Ta\t5nner. I have no further questions. 

The Chairman. Any questions, Judge Moulder ? 



220 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mr. Moulder. No. 

The Chairman. The witness is excused. 

Will you come around here, please, and raise your right hand? 
Do you swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, 
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mrs. Jackson. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF ELIZABETH RICARDO JACKSON, ACCOMPANIED BY 
COUNSEL, ROBERT L. BOAGS 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please ? 

Mrs. Jackson. Elizabeth Jackson. 

Mr. Tavenner. A subpena was issued for you under the name of 
Elizabeth Ricardo, I believe. You are the same person as Elizabeth 
Ricardo, are you not ? 

Mrs. Jackson. Yes, I am 

Mr. Tavenner. When were you married ? 

(The witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Jackson. October 19, 1957. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliere do you reside ? 

Mrs. Jackson. My mailing address is 1105 East Vernon Avenue. 
I formerly resided at 951 Irolo Street. 

Mr. Tavenner. What was your maiden name ? 

(The witness confers with her counsel. ) 

Mrs. Jackson. I decline to answer the question on the ground that 
it violates my constitutional right against self-incrimination, as well 
as it violates my constitutional right of free speech and association 
under the first amendment. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now I have asked you merely for the name under 
which you were born. Do you honestly believe that to answer that 
question truthfully might tend to incriminate you ? 

Mrs. Jackson. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Moulder. Which name is correct, Mr. Chairman, Ricardo or 
Jackson ? 

Mrs. Jackson. My present name is now Elizabeth Jackson. 

The Chairman. When did you become Jackson? 

Mrs. Jackson. October 19, 1957. 

The Chairman. Was your name before that Ricardo? 

Mrs. Jackson. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. But Ricardo was your married name prior to your 
marriage to Jackson. Isn't that true ? 

Mrs. Jackson. That is right. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now I am asking what your maiden name was. 

Mrs. Jackson. I have declined to answer that question. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wasn't it Elizabeth Smith ? 

Mrs. Jackson. I decline to answer as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Weren't you born at Stamford, Conn. ? 

Mrs. Jackson. I decline to answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. What was the date of your birth ? 

Mrs. Jackson. I decline to answer that question as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wasn't it November the 13th, 1913 ? 

Mrs. Jackson. I decline to answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. The committee is very much interested in finding 
in the course of its investigation of Communist Party activities in this 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 221 

area that you signed a letter on December 14, 1957, which was a state- 
ment of grievances against the leadership of the Communist Party and 
that that letter was addressed to the National Committee of the Com- 
munist Party. We are familiar with the contents of that letter. We 
know also that the letter was answered by a report made by Dorothy 
Healey, which she circulated among all of the sections of the Commu- 
nist Party so that it could be considered and studied on a section level; 
but notwithstanding her reply, a number of those who signed the 
letter of December 14 resigned from the Communist Party and exe- 
cuted a letter tendering their resignation. 

We do not find anything indicating you resigned from the Commu- 
nist Party ; so I want to know what happened between December 14, 
1957, and March 26, 1958, to change your opinion regarding your com- 
plaint against the leadership, national leadership, of the Communist 
Party. 

Mrs. Jackson. I decline to answer the question on the ground that 
it violates my constitutional right against self-incrimination, as well 
as it violates my constitutional right of free speech and association 
under the first amendment. 

Mr. Tavenner. You are aware of the fact, are you not, that there 
was great opposition by the Communist Party leadership in this area 
to Dorothy Healey's leadership of the Communist Party, are you not ? 

Mrs. Jackson. I decline to answer as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. You are also aware of the fact that Pettis Perry 
advised the leadership of the Communist Party in this area that it 
was their duty to support the national leadership of the Communist 
Party, are you not ? 

Mrs. Jackson. I decline to answer as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did that have anything to do with your changing 
your mind about resigning from the Communist Party ? 

Mrs. Jackson. I decline to answer as previously stated. 

Mr. Tai'enner. Are you a member of the Communist Party now ? 

Mrs. Jackson. I decline to answer as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. What pressure was brought upon you to change 
your views as expressed in the letter of December 14 ? 

Mrs. Jackson. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. You were a member of the Moranda Smith Section 
of the Communist Party on December 14, 1957, were you not ? 

Mrs. Jackson. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you sign the letter of grievances of December 
14, 1957, with the name "Elizabeth" and then the statement, "Moranda 
Smith," meaning the Moranda Smith Section of the Communist 
Party? 

Mrs. Jackson. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Taat^nner. You have been active on the staff of the Daily 
People's World, haven't you ? 

Mrs. Jackson. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Was any pressure brought upon you as a member of 
that staff to cause you to change the decisions reached on December 14, 
1957, as indicated in the letter of grievances ? 

Mrs. Jackson. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. You had been, for a long time, an active member in 
the Los Angeles Chapter of the Civil Rights Congress, had you not? 



222 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mrs. Jackson. I decline to answer on the grounds previously 
stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Aiid also in tlie Independent Progressive Party 
of the State of California ? 

Mrs. Jackson. I decline to answer as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Your particular assignment to the Independent 
Progressive Party was in the Olympic Club of that party; was it 
not? 

Mrs. Jackson. I decline to answer on the grounds previously 
stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend as a delegate the Southern Cali- 
fornia District convention of the Communist Party held on April 13 
and 14, 1957? 

Mrs. Jackson. I decline to answer on the grounds previously 
stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you also a delegate to the Los Angeles County 
Communist Party convention held on January 5 and 6, 1957? 

Mrs. Jackson. I decline ta answer on the grounds previously 
stated. 

Mr. Tavenner, Is your present occupation solely that of house- 
wife? 

Mrs. Jackson. I decline to answer on the grounds that it violates 
my constitutional right against self-incrimination, as well as it vio- 
hites my constitutional right of free speech and association under the 
first amendment. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further question. 

The Chairman. The witness is excused. 

Mr. Tavenner. Just a moment, please. My attention is called to 
the fact that I failed to ask counsel for the witness to identify himself 
for the record. 

Mr. BoAGS. I am the attorney. My name is Robert L. Boags. 

Mr. Tavenner. You were with the witness during the entire time 
of her testimony; were you not? 

Mr. BoAGS. Yes ; I was. 

The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand? Do you swear 
the testimony you are about to give w^ill be the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mrs. Pacifico. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF OLA ROSS PACIPICO, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
ROSE S. ROSENBERG 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please? 

Mrs. Pacifico, Mrs. Ola Ross Pacifico. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your last name ? 

Mrs, Pacifico, P-a-c-i-f-i-c-o. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please 
identify herself for the record ? 

Mrs. Rosenberg, My name is Rose S. Rosenberg. 

Mr. Tavenner. Does your middle name, Ross, indicate that that 
was your maiden name ? 

Mrs. Pacifico, Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mrs, Pacifico? 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 223 

Mrs. Paclfico. I was born September 7, 1902, in the rural area of 
Olilahoma. I believe it is listed as Blaine County now. 

Mr. TA^^NNER. Where do you now reside ? 

Mrs. Pacifico. 11148 Condon Avenue, Inglewood. 

Mr. Tavenner. California? 

Mrs. Pacifico. California. 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you first come to the State of California 
to make it the place of your permanent residence ? 

Mrs. Pacifico. 1946. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation? 

Mrs. Pacifico. I am a nurse. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your 
formal educational training has been ? 

Mrs. Pacifico. I graduated from Teachers College in Oklahoma 
and took a bachelor's degree in sociology. University of Chicago, and 
a master's degree in public health at Columbia Univereity in New 
York. 

Mr. Tavenner. When were you awarded that degree ? 

Mrs. Pacifico. 1946. I also am a graduate nurse, and I graduated 
from the Cook County School of Nursing in 1933. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Pacifico, the committee has learned of the 
reorganization of the Communists in the southern part of California. 
We understand now^ that there are two districts in California, the 
Northern and Southern Districts of the Communist Party, and that 
the governing body of the Southern District of California, of the 
California Communist Party, is a district council composed of 62 
members. We understand that you are one of those district council 
members. Are you ? 

Mrs. Pacifico. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell this committee how this council func- 
tions and what its duties are ? 

Mrs. Pacifico. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Tavenner. We understand that the membership in this council 
is made up of representatives from various sections of the Communist 
Party. Of what section are you a member ? 

Mrs. Pacifico. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a delegate to the California State con- 
vention of the Communist Party held January 19 and 20, 1957 

Mrs. Pacifico. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the first 
amendment. 

Mr. Tavenner. Just a moment. — wliich outlined the course that 
this reorganization should take? 

Mrs. Pacifico. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist Party 
for a long time ? 

Mrs. Pacifico. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you discharged as a city employee in 1949 
because of your refusal to sign the loyalty oath ? 



224 COMJMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mrs. Pacifico. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party in 
1951? 

Mrs. Pacifico. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Tavenner. We have learned of the Communist Party assign- 
ments of numerous members of the Communist Party to carry on 
activities within various mass organizations and among some organi- 
zations which are specifically sponsored by the Communist Party. 
Have you accepted any assignment of that kind ? 

Mrs. Pacifico. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been active in the Independent Progres- 
sive Party of the State of California ? 

Mrs. Pacifico. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Tavenner. Our investigation discloses that you have been a 
member of the Civil Eights Congress. Is that correct ? 

Mrs. Pacifico. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Southern California 
Committee Against Re-Nazification of Germany ? 

Mrs. Pacifico. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you an employee in 1949 of the Los Angeles 
City Health Department ? 

Mrs. Pacific©. May I seek the advice of my counsel ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Surely. 

(The witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Pacifico. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party now ? 

Mrs. Pacifico. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Ta\^nner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Do you have any questions, Mr. Moulder ? 

Mr. Moulder. No. 

The Chairman. The witness is excused. 

Will you raise your right hand, please? Do you swear the testi- 
mony you are about to give will be the truth, the wliole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Sazer. Yes. 

TESTIMONY OF HENRY SAZER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
ROSE S. ROSENBERG 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please? 
Mr. Sazer. Henry Sazer. 
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your last name ? 
Mr. Sazer. S-a-z-e-r. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please 
identify herself for the record ? 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 225 

Mrs. Rosenberg. My name is Rose S. Rosenberg. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you reside, Mr. Sazer ? 

Mr. Sazer. You have my address there. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state it ? 

Mr. Sazer. 1662 Mohawk Street, L. A. 26. 

Mr. Tavenner. Los Angeles ? 

Mr. Sazer. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wlien and Avhere were you born, sir ? 

Mr. Sazer. Russia, 1896. 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you first come to the United States ? 

( The witness confers with his counsel. ) 

Mr. Sazer. In August of 1913. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a naturalized United States citizen ? 

Mr. Sazer, Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wlien and where were you naturalized ? 

Mr. Sazer. 1921, Cleveland, Ohio. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ? 

Mr. Sazer. I am a cap maker, making caps and hats. 

Mr. Tavenner, Mr. Sazer, did you attend a meeting of the [South- 
ern California] District Council of the Communist Party on July 27, 
1958? 

Mr. Sazer. I don't see what difference it makes to this committee 
whether I did or did not attend such a meeting. 

Mr. Tavenner. Well, if you attended that meeting, you are in a 
position to advise this committee as to some of the things that occurred 
there. 

Mr, Sazer, I don't think the committee has a right to inquire into 
my activities or associations. In fact, I believe that you are putting 
the problem upside down. I think it is my right as a citizen to inquire 
into the activities of my representatives instead of my representatives 
inquiring into my activities and associations. I don't think you have 
a right to do that. Who are you ? 

Mr. Tavenner, I am counsel for the committee. My name is 
Frank Tavenner. Now will you answer the question ? 

Mr. Sazer. I will not answer the question. 

Mr. Tavenner. May I have a direction ? 

The Chairman, I direct you to answer the question. 

Mr. Sazer. I will have to resort to the protection given me under 
the Constitution under the first and fifth amendments of the Con- 
stitution. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did not Dorothy Healey make a minority report at 
that meeting in which she criticized severely the national leadership 
of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Sazer. I still challenge your right to inquire. 

Mr. Tavenner. May I have a direction ? 

The Chairman. The witness is directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Sazer. As already stated, the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Tavenner. After the completion of her report, did not Pettis 
Perry, who was at the time a member of the National Committee of 
the Communist Party from the Southern District of California, 
oppose the report made by Dorothy Healey and tell the members pres- 
ent that it was their duty to support the national leadership's 
decisions ? 



226 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mr. Sazer. I did not say whether I did or did not attend that meet- 
ing. Therefore this question, I think, is just out of order. 

Mr. Tavenner. May I ask that the witness be required to answer? 

The Chairman. You are directed to ansAver the question. 

Mr. Sazer. I claim protection of the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you not take tlie floor at that meeting yourself 
and agree with Pettis Perry and state that the leadership of the Com- 
munist Party in the Southern District of California is no good and 
that it should be replaced ? 

Mr. Sazer. My answer as previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a supporter of the national leadership of 
the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Sazer. Still as previously stated. 

Mr. Tam^nner. Are you influenced in Communist Party decisions 
by the position taken by the Soviet Union on what the Communist 
Party of the United States should do ? 

Mr. Sazer. I still challenge the right of the committee to inquire 
into my activities and associations. 

Mr. Tavenner. INIay I ask the witness be required to answer ? 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question. 

Mr. Sazer. I claim the first and fifth amendments. That's what 
you want, don't you ? 

Mr. Tavenner. No. We want you to answer the question. 

Mr. Sazer. I don't think you do. 

The Chairman. AVhy don't you try it and find out ? 

Mr. Sazer. Because lots of things that you do don't correspond — 
that you say don't correspond with facts. For example, you say in 
this morning's paper that you are interested in protecting people's 
jobs, and at the same time the police officer served a subpena on my 
job in the presence of my employer. That doesn't add any prestige to 
the committee, in my eyes at least. 

The Chairman. Let's not get into a discussion of prestige. Go 
ahead, Mr. Tavenner. 

Mr. Tavenner. Our records indicate that you attended the Los 
Angeles County convention of the Communist Party held January 5 
and 6, 1957. Did you do so? 

]\Ir. Sazer. I challenge the right of the committee to inquire into 
any activities. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you refusing to answer the question ? 

Mr. Sazer. Yes, sir ; under the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Taa'enner. I would also like to ask you if you attended the 
California State convention meeting held on January 19 and 20, 
1957 ? 

Mr. Sazer. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Of what union are you a member ? 

Mr. Sazer. I decline to state. 

Mr. Tavenner. You decline to state ? 

Mr. Sazer. That is right. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you, at the instance of the Communist Party, 
engaged in Communist Party activities or endeavored to do so within 
your union ? 

Mr. Sazer. I decline to answer. 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 227 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been active in the American Jewish Labor 
Council ? 

Mr. Sazer, Same challenge, same answer, the first and fifth. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you not executive secretary of that organ- 
ization ? 

Mr. Sazer. I decline to answer on the first and fifth. 

Mr. Tavenner. Isn't it the purpose of that organization to advance 
the cause of communism in this area ? 

Mr. Sazer. Same challenge, same answer, on the first and fifth. 

IMr. Tavenner. Have you been active in the work of the Los Angeles 
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ? 

Mr. Sazer. Same challenge, same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Sazer. Same answer, same challenge, the first and fifth. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

The Chairman. The witness is excused. 

Call another witness. 

Will you raise your right hand, please? Do you swear the testi- 
mony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mrs. Vallens. I do. 

TESTIMONY OP VIVIAN VALLENS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

BEN MARGOLIS 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please ? 

Mrs. Vallens. Vivian Vallens. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your name ? 

Mrs. Vallens. V-i-v-i-a-n V-a-1-l-e-n-s. 

Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that the witness is accompanied by Mr. 
Ben Margolis of the California Bar. 

Are you Miss or Mrs. ? 

Mrs. Vallens. Mrs. 

Mr. Tavenner. What was your maiden name ? 

Mrs. Vallens. Meyerowitz. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you reside ? 

Mrs. Vallens. 9143 South Vicki Drive. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born ? 

Mrs. Vallens. New York City, February 5, 1930. 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you move to California with a view to 
making it the place of your permanent residence ? 

Mrs. Vallens. 1944. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ? 

Mrs. Vallens. Housewife. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you had any occupation other than that? 

Mrs, Vallens. I have worked as a bookkeeper. 

Mr. Tavenner. I heard that you were an assembler. Was that cor- 
rect ? Were you employed as an assembler ? 

Mrs. Vallens. I think I have had a job at one time as an assembler. 

Mr. Tavenner. When was that? 

Mrs. Vallens. Several years back. 

Mr. Tavenner. What was the general nature of that ? 

38253—^9 — pt. 2 -7 



228 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mrs. Vallens. I fail to see what this has to do with this. I don't 
see the pertinency of that question. I fail to see, whether I was in as- 
sembly, what that has to do with this particular investigation. 

Mr. Tavenner. It is a matter of identification. 

Mrs. Vallens. Well, I am Vivian Vallens, and I am me. That 
identifies me. 

Mr, Tavenner. Wliat is the nature of the work of an assembler ? 

Mrs. Vallens. I still fail to see what that has to do. 

Mr. Tavenner. May I have a direction, Mr. Chairman ? 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. I don't 
know what the purpose is. 

Mrs. Vallens. I fail 

(The witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Vallens. If Mr. Chairman doesn't know what the purpose 
is 

The Chairman. But I think that counsel does. So it is a pre- 
liminary question, and I think you ought to answer it. 

Mrs. Vallens. I can barely hear you. 

The Chairman. I direct you to answer the question. 

Mrs. Vallens. Would you re-ask the original question, please ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. What general type of work were you engaged 
in as an assembler ? 

Mrs. Vallens. Assembling parts for television sets. 

Mr. Tavenner. The committee, in the course of its investigation, 
has learned that there has been a reorganization of the Communist 
Party in southern California; that, organizationally speaking, the 
area is now within the Southern District of California of the Com- 
munist Party; and that that area is governed by a district council 
composed of 62 members. The committee is also informed that you 
are a member of that district council. Is that correct ? 

Mrs. Vallens. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the 
first amendment to the Constitution, which says that Congress shall 
make no law abridging freedom of speech and press or the right for 
people to petition. I further decline to answer that question on the 
basis of the fifth amendment, which says that no person can be com- 
pelled to testify against himself. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend 

Mr. Margolis. The witness has a ground. 

Mrs. Vallens. I also don't feel that that question is pertinent. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your edu- 
cational training has been, your formal education ? 

Mrs. Vallens. My formal education? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 

Mrs, Vallens. I went to grammar school, high school, and one 
semester of college. 

]\Ir. Tavenner. "VVliere did you attend college ? 

Mrs. Vallens. UCLA. 

The Chairman. Where did you say ? 

Mrs, Vallens, UCLA, 

Mr, Tavenner. What year was that ? 

Mrs. Vallens. 1947. 

Mr. Tavenner. Considerable emphasis was placed by Dorothy 
Healey in her report to the Southern California District convention, 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 229 

held on April 13 and 14, 1957, regarding youth activities in the Com- 
munist Party. The subject was given consideration also at the Six- 
teenth National Convention of the Commimist Party in New York, 
which was held in February, 1957. 

Have you for many years been active in a Communist Party assign- 
ment in youth organizations? 

(The witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Vallens. I feel that your question makes many assumptions 
that are not based on anything that factually is presented, and I also 
feel that any organizations I do or do not belong to are my own per- 
sonal affair and not the business of anybody else, and I refuse to 
answer that question on the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Let me put the question this way : Were you active 
while a student in the organization of the American Youth for 
Democracy ? 

Mrs. Vallens. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. The Youth for Wallace organization ? 

Mrs. Vallens. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. The Students Organizing Committee of the Inde- 
pendent Progressive Party ? 

Mrs. Vallens. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you not, in fact, president of the Patriots 
Club of the American Youth for Democracy ? 

Mrs. Vallens. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you not a member of the Students Organiz- 
ing Committee of the Independent Progressive Party while you were 
at UCLA? 

Mrs. Vallens. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. After completion of your college work, were you 
not active in the work of the Labor Youth League, which was the suc- 
cessor to the American Youth for Democracy ? 

Mrs. Vallens. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you not elected to serve on the finance com- 
mittee at the convention of the Los Angeles County Labor Youth 
League held on July 14, 1956 ? 

Airs. Vallens. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you not, on August 2, 1956, elected to the po- 
sition of social director of the Labor Youth League of Los Angeles 
County although you were not present at the time of your election? 

Mrs. Vallens. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you accept the office ? 

Mrs. Vallens. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you aware of the program established by 
Dorothy Healey in the field of youth ? 

Mrs. Vallens. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mrs. Vallens. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

The Chairman. No questions. 

Will you raise your right hand, please? Do you swear the testi- 
mony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Baefsky. I do. 



230 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

TESTIMONY OF LEO BAEFSKY, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, BEN 

MAKGOLIS 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please, sir ? 

Mr. Baefsky. LeoBaefsky. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your last name ? 

Mr. Baefsky. B-a-e-f-s-k-y. 

Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that the witness is accompanied by Ben 
Margolis, a member of the California Bar. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you reside, Mr. Baefsky ? 

Mr. Baefsky. 436 Brightwood, Monterey Park. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born ? 

Mr. Baefsky. Chicago, 111. 

Mr. Tavenner. When? 

Mr. Baefsky. July 6, 1919. 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you first come to California to make it 
the place of your permanent residence ? 

Mr. Baefsky. 1940. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ? 

Mr. Baefsky. I am an accountant. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your 
formal educational training has been ? 

Mr. Baefsky. Starting with grammar school ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 

Mr. Baefsky. Grammar school, high school in Chicago, a year and 
a half of college in Chicago, and the balance of my college education 
at UCLA. 

Mr. Ta\tenner. When did you complete your college work? 

Mr. Baefsky. 1946. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been engaged in youth activities of the 
Communist Party in Los Angeles ? 

Mr. Baefsky. I don't consider this a question which is pertinent 
to the legislative function. I consider it an infringement of my rights 
which are guaranteed me by the Constitution. For example, I think 
you are familiar with the fact that Article I says that Congress shall 
make no law abridging freedom of speech or the press or the rights 
of the people peaceably to assemble and petition the Government for 
a redress of their grievances. I consider a question which discusses 
my activities is formed within the framework of this Article. 

The Chair]vian. Maybe I could point out to you the relevancy by 
reading to you a part of the report to the Southern California District 
convention by Dorothy Healey, in which she says : 

We are not in a iwsition to project a definitive program of work among 
youth. We know that the future of our party lies in our ability to win youth 
to the cause of socialism, but while we cannot yet answer the question of what 
type of Marxist youth organization should emerge, we can state that high on 
the priority list of our party's program, should be the planned and conscious 
approach toward the young people in the mass organizations and unions in 
which we [meaning the Communists] participate. 

Now it is because of this statement we are interested in knowing 
about youth activities. 

Mr. Baefsky. Well, Mr. Chairman, as I understand it, questions 
must be pertinent to a legislative function, and legislation in the 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 231 

field of ideas is forbidden by the first amendment. As I pointed 
out previously, the first amendment says 

The Chairman. Yes. I have a speaking acquaintance with the 
first amendment and all the other amendments, but I am going to 
direct you to answer the question. 

Mr. Margolis. I don't think the witness had an opportunity to 
completely state his grounds. I think you interrupted him while he 
was stating them. 

Mr. Baefsky. I would like to point out, on the grounds previously 
stated, and I read the gist of the first amendment, and I would also 
like to point out that I refuse to answer the question under privilege 
afforded me under the fifth amendment, which says that no person 
can be compelled to testify against himself. I add this without any 
indication of guilt on my part. 

Mr. Tavenner. The explanation made by the chairman taken from 
the report of Dorothy Healey has reference to that report which she 
made at the first Southern California District convention of the Com- 
munist Party, held on April 13 and 14, 1957. Did you attend that 
convention ? 

Mr. Baefsky. I am sorry, sir, I would like to refuse to answer that 
question on the grounds previously stated. I consider the question 
infringes on my rights of association and of freedom of speech and 
action. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you not studied the very report that was re- 
ferred to by the chairman ? 

Mr. Baefsky. I am sorry, sir, I will have to refuse to answer the 
question on the grounds previously stated. The question is not perti- 
nent to legislative inquiry, as I understand. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you aware of what is being done now by the 
Commmiist Party of the Southern District of California in the youth 
field? 

Mr. Baefsky. I am sorry, sir, I consider any questions in this field 
not to be pertinent to a legislative inquiry, and I must stand upon the 
grounds previously stated in answering them. 

Mr. Tavenner. You have been experienced, have you not, in the 
Commmiist Party work within youth organizations back to the 
time of your college days ; isn't that so ? 

Mr. Baefsky. Mr. Interrogator, I must refuse to answer any ques- 
tions on my political beliefs or political associations. I consider them 
not a fit arena for legislation. It is expressly forbidden by the first 
amendment. 

Mr. Tavenner. While at the University of California in 1945, were 
you not the executive secretary of the Four Freedoms Club of the 
American Youth for Democracy ? 

Mr. Baefsky. As I said previously, I consider these questions not 
relevant to a legislative inquiry. Thus, I must refuse to answer them 
on the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Weren't you on the editorial staff of the publica- 
tion known as Campus Currents which was put out by the Four Free- 
doms Club of the American Youth for Democracy of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Baefsky. I must refuse to answer on the grounds previously 
stated. 



232 COMMUNISM in southern CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party now ? 

Mr. Baefsky. I must refuse to answer again on the grounds pre- 
viously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. The witness is excused. 

Will you raise your right hand, please? Do you swear the testi- 
mony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and 
notliing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mrs. Parness. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF ESTELLE PARNESS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

BEN MARGOLIS 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please ? 

Mrs. Parness. Mrs. Estelle Parness. 

Mr. Tavenner. It is noted that the witness is accompanied by Mr. 
Ben Margolis, member of the California Bar. 

What was your maiden name, Mrs. Parness ? 

Mrs. Parness. Estelle Kurland. 

Mr. Tavenner. Kurland. Spell it, please. 

Mrs. Parness. K-u-r-l-a-n-d. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you reside ? 

Mrs. Parness. Norwalk, 10515 Angell Street. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born ? 

Mrs. Parness. 1929, August 24, Phoenix, Ariz. 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you move to California for the purpose 
of making it your permanent residence ? 

Mrs. Parness. I believe it was 1942. 

Mr. Tavenner. The committee has learned of the contents of Dor- 
othy Healey's report to the Southern California District convention 
of the Communist Party which she made at a meeting on April the 
13th and 14th, 1957. Are you aware of the contents of that report? 

Mrs. Parness. I can't see how this question could possibly be rele- 
vant or pertinent to anything that the committee has in mind. And 
since the actions and questions of the committee violate the Constitu- 
tion and the Bill of Rights, as well as my own personal convictions, I 
will refuse to answer any questions of this committee that will violate 
the first amendment to the Constitution and abridge my freedom of 
speech and right to associate with whom I please, and I also will 
refuse to answer any questions which might incriminate me as guar- 
anteed by the fifth amendment to the Constitution. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, if you know 
what the plans of the Communist Party are, at this time, for the 
advancement of Communist Party objectives within youth organiza- 
tions ? 

Mrs. Parness. I cite my previous answer. 

(The witness confers with her counsel.) 

Mr. Tavenner. The meeting to which I referred as being held on 
April 13 and 14, 1957, was a meeting of the Southern California Dis- 
trict convention of the Communist Party. There was also a meeting 
later on July 27, 1958, of the District Council of the Communist Party, 
Southern District, California. Our investigation does not disclose 
that you were present, but did you learn of the directives and the 
action taken at that meeting? 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 233 

Mrs. Parness. Questions of this nature are intended simply to 
smear, blacklist, and hound people who may have a dissident point 
of view and have the courage to express this point of view. I will 
continue to refuse to answer this question, and I cite my previous 
grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a delegate to the Southern California Dis- 
trict convention held on April 13 and 14? 

Mrs. Parness. I cite my previous grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you not been active for a long period of years 
in promoting the Communist Party objectives among youth organ- 
izations ? 

Mrs. Parness. This committee exists primarily to intimidate decent 
people into fear of expressing their ideas. This type of question is 
designed to do just that. I give the same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your 
formal educational training has been ? 

Mrs. Parness. Yes. I went to grammar school, high school, and 
4 years of college. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where did you attend college? 

Mrs. Parness. UCLA. 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you complete your college work at 
UCLA? 

Mrs. Parness. I left school to get married in 1949. 

Mr. Tavenner. While at UCLA, were you the chairman of the 
UCLA Chapter of the Labor Youth League, which was the successor 
organization to the American Youth for Democracy and the Young 
Communist League ? 

Mrs. Parness. Any questions of that nature I will give the same 
answer to. Any associations, organization, that I have belonged to 
are my own business. I will not be compelled by any committee to 
testify as to the nature of these organizations. The same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. After leaving the university, did you not continue 
your work within the Labor Youth League of California until the 
time of its termination in 1956 ? 

Mrs. Parness. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mrs. Parness. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. The witness is excused. 

Will you stand up, please? Do you swear the testimony you are 
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 
the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Sarnoff. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF IRVING SARNOFF, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

BEN MARGOLIS 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please, sir ? 
Mr. Sarnoff. Irving Sarnoff. 

Mr. Tavenner. It is noted for the record that the witness is ac- 
companied by Mr. Ben Margolis, of the California Bar. 
When and where were you born, Mr. Sarnoff ? 
Mr. Sarnoff. I was bom in New York City on May 25, 1930. 



234 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you first come to the State of California 
to make it the place of your residence ? 

Mr. Sarnoff. 1946. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ? 

Mr. Sarnoff. I am a car inspector. 

Mr. Tavenner. Railroad ? 

Mr. Sarnoff. That is right. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat has been your formal educational training? 

Mr. Sarnoff. I went to public school, grade school, and high school. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you in the Armed Forces of the United States ? 

Mr. Sarnoff. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long? 

Mr. Sarnoff. Approximately 1 year. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been engaged in the work of a 
railroad car inspector ? 

Mr. Sarnoff. I don't see where that question is pertinent. 

Mr. Tavenner. Let me put it another way. Wliat other work rec- 
ord have you had besides that of a railroad car inspector since being 
in California ? 

Mr. Sarnoff. I don't see where that question, sir, is pertinent to a 
legislative inquiry. 

Mr. Tavenner. May I have a direction ? 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question, Mr. Sar- 
noff. 

Mr. Sarnoff. If you wish — my employment in the place that I 
mentioned ; I was employed by the United States Army ; and previous 
to that, I was an assembler for Hoffman Television Company. 

Mr. Tavenner. When did your services in the military forces end ? 

Mr. Sarnoff. March 26, 1952, 1 believe. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you receive an honorable discharge? 

Mr. Sarnoff. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you at this time a member of the District 
Council for the Southern California District of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Sarnoff. On the ground of the first amendment, which pro- 
hibits legislative inquiries into the field of speech, the field of associa- 
tion, the field of ideas, I do not feel that this question is a proper 
question, and on the gromids of pertinence relative to the fact that I 
don't see how that question is pertinent to a legislative inquiiy of this 
nature, and on the ground of the fifth amendment to the Constitution, 
which protects a witness from being a witness against himself, I 
would refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend the Los Angeles County Commu- 
nist Party convention held on January 5 and 6, 1957 ? 

Mr. Sarnoff. I would refuse to answer that question on the 
grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend the California State convention of 
the Communist Party held on January 19 and 20, 1957 ? 

Mr. Sarnoff. I refuse to answer that on the groimds previously 
stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. The committee is informed that you attended a 
convention of the newly formed Southern District of the Communist 



COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 235 

Party of Southern California on April 13 and 14, 1957. Is it true 
that you were there ? 

Mr. Sarnoff. I would refuse to answer that question on the 
grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you familiar with the report of Dorothy 
Healey made at that convention relating, particularly, to the Com- 
munist Party attitude toward work within youth organizations? 

Mr. Sarnoff. I would refuse to answer that question on the 
grounds previously stated, 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you not been active in behalf of the Com- 
munist Party in the promotion of its program among youth organiza- 
tions ? 

Mr. Sarnoff. I would refuse to answer that question on the 
grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the American Youth for 
Democracy organization ? 

Mr. Sarnoff, I would refuse to answer that question on the 
grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. As late as 1956 were you not the labor director of 
the Los Angeles County Labor Youth League ? 

Mr. Sarnoff. I would refuse to answer that question on the 
grounds previously stated. 

Mr, Tavenner. Were you not a member of the executive committee 
of the Labor Youth League and in 1957 a delegate to the Labor Youth 
convention ? 

Mr. Sarnoff. I refuse to answer that question on the gi'ounds 
previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Sarnoff, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds 
previously stated, 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. The witness is excused. 

Will you raise your right hand, please? Do you swear the testi- 
mony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Talbot. I do. 

The Chairman, Sit down. 

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM W. TALBOT, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

BEN MARGOLIS 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please? 
Mi\ Talbot. William Talbot, 
Mr, Tavenner, Will you spell your last name? 
Mr, Talbot. T-a-1-b-o-t, 

Mr, Tavenner. It is noted that the witness is accompanied by Mr. 
Ben Margolis, of the California Bar. 

When and where were you born, Mr, Talbot ? 
Mr. Talbot, I was bom in Panguitch, Utah, 
Mr, Tavenner. Will you spell it? 
Mr. Talbot. P-a-n-g-u-i-t-c-h. 
Mr. Ta\^nner. What date? 



236 COMMUNISM IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA 

Mr. Talbot. 1908. My parents and all four of my grandparents 
were likewise born in Utah. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ? 

Mr. Talbot. 1806 Montana Street, Los Angeles. 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you first come to California to make it 
the place of your permanent residence? 

Mr. Talbot. The fall of 1950. 

Mr. Tavenner. '50? 

Mr. Talbot. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your formal educational training? 

Mr. Talbot. I graduated from the eighth grade, grammar school. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation? 

Mr. Talbot. Well, I have worked 14 years in mining. I worked 
in the building construction, canning factories, furniture factory, and 
the railroads, and machine shops. Most of the time as a miner. 

Mr. Tavenner, Will you state whether or not prior to 1950 you 
were an organizer of the Communist Party in Utali and Idaho? 

Mr. Talbot. On the grounds that that infringes on my rights mider 
the first amendment to the Constitution, I invoke the first amendment 
in answer to that question. 

Mr. Tavenner. After coming to Los Angeles, have you not engaged 
in Commmiist Party work within various Communist front organiza- 
tions ? 

Mr. Talbot. I think I will invoke the same answer to that question. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you not conducted Marxist classes over the 
period from May 3, 1953, to September 29, 1953? 

Mr. Talbot. Same answer to that question. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a delegate to the State convention, the 
California State convention of the Communist Party, held in Los 
Angeles on January 19 and 20, 1957 ? 

Mr. Talbot. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you not also a delegate to the Southern Cali- 
fornia District convention held on April 13 and 14, 1957? 

Mr. Talbot. I will give you the same answer to that question. 

Mr. Tavenner. Didii't you attend both of these conventions? 

Mr. Talbot. That involves my right of association, and I will cite 
the same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner, Are you a member of a trade union ? ^ 

Mr. Talbot. I will cite the same answer to that question. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Talbot, Same answer to that question, 

Mr, Tavenner, I have no further questions. 

(Whereupon, at 11 :45 a.m. Friday, September 5, 1958, the subcom- 
mittee adjourned, subject to the call of the Chair.) 

X 



jliiiiR^, 

3 9999 05706 3131 



ll^Z, 



This book should be returned to 
the Library on or before the last date 
stamped below. 

A fine is incurred by retaining it 
beyond the specified time. 
Please return promptly.