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SPECIAL SENATE INVESTIGATION ON CHARGES
AND COUNTERCHARGES INVOLVING: SECRE-
TARY OF THE ARMY ROBERT T. STEVENS, JOHN
G. ADAMS, H. STRUVE HENSEL AND SENATOR
JOE McCarthy, roy m. cohn, and
FRANCIS p. CARR
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SPECIAL SUBCOMMITTEE ON
INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON
GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
UNITED STATES SENATE
EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
PURSUANT TO
S. Res. 189
PART 3
APRIL 23, 1954
Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Operations
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
46620" WASHINGTON : 1054
Boston Public Library
Superintendent of Documents
JUL 15 1954
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
JOSEPH R. MCCARTHY, Wiscousin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas
MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Maine HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, Minnesota
HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington
EVERETT Mckinley DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan ALTON A. LENNON, North Carolina
Richard J. O'Melia, General Counsel
Walter L. Reynolds, Chief Clerk
Special Subcommittee on Investigations
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota, Chairman
EVER.ETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington
HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri
Ray H. Jenkins, Chief Counsel
Thomas R. Pkewitt, Assistant Counsel
Robert A. Collier, Assistant Counsel
SOLis HORWITZ, Assistant Counsel
II
CONTENTS
Page
Appendix 135
Testimony of Hon. Robert T. Stevens, Secretary, Department of the Array. 102
EXHIBITS
Intro-
duced Appears
on page on page
L Stevens-Adams chronology 112 135
Tn
SPECIAL SENATE INVESTIGATION ON CHARGES AND
COUNTERCHARGES INYOLVING; SECRETARY OF THE
ARMY ROBERT T. STEVENS, JOHN G. ADAMS, H. STRUVE
HENSEL AND SENATOR JOE McCARTHY, ROY M. COHN,
AND FRANCIS P. CARR
miDAY, APRIL 23, 1954
United States Senate,
Special Subcommittee on Investigations of the
Committee on Government Operations,
Washington^ D. G.
The subcommittee met at 10 : 30 a. m., pursuant to notice, in the
caucus room of the Senate Office Building, Senator Karl E. Mundt,
chairman, presiding.
Present : Senator Karl E. Mundt, Republican, South Dakota ; Sen-
ator Everett McKinley Dirksen, Republican, Illinois ; Senator Charles
E. Potter, Republican, Michigan; Senator Henry C. Dworshak, Re-
publican, Idaho; Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas;
Senator Henry M. Jackson, Democrat, Washington; and Senator
Stuart Symington, Democrat, Missouri.
Also present : Ray H. Jenkins, chief counsel to the subcommittee ;
Thomas R. Prevs-itt, assistant counsel; and Ruth Y. Watt, chief
clerk.
Principal participants: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, a United
States Senator from the State of Wisconsin; Roy M. Cohn, chief
counsel to the subcommittee : Francis P. Carr, executive director of the
subcommittee ; Hon. Robert T. Stevens, Secretary of the Army ; John
G. AdamSjCounselor to the Army ; H, Struve Hensel, Assistant Sec-
retary of Defense; Joseph N. Welch, special counsel for the Army;
and James D. St. Clair, special counsel for the Army.
Senator Mundt. The committee will come to order, please.
May the Chair reiterate for the benefit of any of our guests who
were not here yesterday that we ask our guests to refrain from any
manifestations of approval or disapproval of any kind at any time.
Yesterday the audience was magnificent in that regard and I trust
that you will continue to abide by the rules of the subcommittee.
Are you ready, Mr. Stevens?
Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, I regret to say that I asked twice yester-
day for a mike in front of me and I have not yet received one. It is
quite awkward to share one with the witness. I hope, sir, you will
use your enormous power to see that a second mike is established at
this table at the earliest possible moment.
Senator Mundt. I shall do my best and I do not know how much
power I have in that regard.
101
102 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Euth, will you ask Louie Kerr -what the possibilities are for getting
an extra mike? And I think that there should be an extra mike at the
end of the table, too, but at least there certainly should be one at the
witness stand. The Chair has bad news, Mr. Welch. Mr. Reynolds
says he took that up yesterday with the electricians and the people in
charge of the amplification system and they say it all hooked up with
some trunkline and that it cannot be done. I share your incredulity
about that, however, and we will see if we cannot get something done.
Mr. AVelch. Thank you, sir.
Senator Mundt. We will have to ask the photographers to be
seated, please. Gentlemen, we want to start the hearings now. Coun-
sel for the committee, ]\Ir. Jenkins, will take over the questioning.
TESTIMONY OF HON. EGBERT T. STEVENS, SECEETARY OF THE
AEMY— Eesumed
Mr. Jenkixs. I believe, Mr. Stevens, you were properly identified
yesterday insofar as your full name is concerned, and the official posi-
tion you hold with the United States Army; is that correct?
Secretary Ste\'Ens. Yes, sir ; Secretary of the Army.
Mr. Jenkins. I believe you further stated in your written statement
to the committee that you were sworn in as Secretary of the Army on
February 4, 1953, is that correct ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. I remember in your statement that you said that you
on the Gth day of February, 2 days after your induction into office,
issued a directive to your staff. Is that correct ?
Secretary Stevens. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. I wish you would, if you will, Mr. Stevens, read to
the committee that directive in full insofar as it pertains to the in-
vestigation of infiltration of Communists in the Army or with respect
to espionage.
Secretary Stevens. This is dated February 4, 1953, a memorandum
for the Chief of Staff, subject, "Loyalty and Security Programs":
1. I would appreciate it if you would arrange for a briefing to be given me on
Friday, February G, 1953, covering the Army's loyalty and security programs for
both military and civilian personnel. The presentation should set forth what
steps are taken to prevent disloyal and subversive persons from infiltrating the
Army and what steps have been taken to discover and remove any such persons
who may have found their way into the Army Establishment.
2. I am also asking Mr. .John W. Martin to arrange for a presentation by the
Chairman of the Loyalty Security Screening Board. You will therefore wish to
have your action officer coordinate the scope of the two presentations.
Egbert T. Stevens,
Secretary of the Army.
Mr. Jenkins. Then is it a fact that one of your first, if not your first
official acts, was taken with respect to the loyalty and the security of
the personnel, both military and civilian of the Armj^?
Secretary Stevens. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. I assume from that answer that that program had
top billing or priority with you ?
Secretary Stevens. It did.
Mr. Jenkins. Were you fully conscious, Mr. Stevens, of the im-
portance of a proper and efficient agency for the purpose of securing
the Army insofar as es])ionage or Communists were concerned?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 103
Mr. Jenkins. Had you ever had any previous experience in the
Army ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. In what capacity ?
Secretary Stevens. For a few months at the end of World War I, as
a second lieutenant of Field Artillery, and for nearly 4 years in World
War II in the Office of the Quartermaster General.
Mr. Jenkins. xVs a result of that directive, were you briefed with
respect to that subject?
Secretary Stevens. I was, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Did you at that time fully acquaint yourself with the
setup of the Army with respect to loyalty and security of its personnel
both civilian and military ?
Secretary Stevens. I attempted to do so, and made it unmistakably
clear with my associates in the Army that I wanted a careful check
made on all phases of the security business and that we had a new
Secretary now and we had some definite ideas about it.
Mr. Jenkins. I will ask you whether or not any changes at that time
or subsequent thereto, were made with respect to the agency charged
with this particular phase of the security of the Army ?
Secretary Stevens. Many and continuing changes have been made
throughout the subsequent period, Mr. Jenkins.
Mr. Jenkins. Was that for the purpose of increasing the efficiency
of that agency ?
Secretary Stevens. It was.
Mr. Jenkins. Did or did it not have that result in your opinion ?
Secretary Stevens. It has, in my opinion.
Mr. Jenkins. I will ask you whether or not at all times since you
were inducted into office that has been an active, virile and militant
agency, always on the alert in your opinion in the discharge of its du-
ties in its investigations pertaining to this subject ?
Secretary Stevens. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Secretary, at that time, were you acquainted with
Senator McCarthy or Mr. Cohn or Mr. Carr ?
Secretary Stevens. No, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. I beg your pardon ?
Secretary Stevens. No, sir ; not at that time.
Mr. Jenkins. You were not personally acquainted with either of
those gentlemen ?
Secretary Stevens. No, sir; I don't think I ever met Senator Mc-
Carthy or Mr. Cohn.
Mr. Jenkins. When did you first meet Senator McCarthy ?^
Secretary Stevens. I think that I met Senator McCarthy just about
a year ago.
Mr. Jenkins. That would be in April 1953 ?
Secretary Stevens. Approximately ; yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. When did you first meet Mr. Cohn ?
Secretary Ste\t:ns. I think I first met Mr. Cohn on the 8th of Sep-
tember 1953.
Mr. Jenkins. Wlien did you first meet Mr. Carr ?
Secretary Stevens. Well, I know that Mr. Carr came to my office on
the 2d of October 1953, and I might have met him a few days before
that.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Secretary, I will ask you when your first official
104 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
contact, I will call it for brevity, with the IMcCarthy investigating
committee occurred ?
Secretary Stevexs. The first contact that I had with it was in con-
nection with an investigation that the committee was making in the
First Army area, which is the New York area.
Mr. Jenkins. And when was that ?
Secretary Stevens. That was — the first I learned of it was on the
4th of September 1953.
Mr. Jenkins. Where were yon at the time yon first learned of it ?
Secretary Stevens. I Avas in Harlowton, Mont., spending a few days
there.
Mr. Jenkins. Was not that on a Labor Day weekend vacation you
had taken? Is that correct?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. You knew at that time of the character of work that
Senator McCarthy was largely engaged in, did you not?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. That is, in the investigation by himself and his staff
of espionage, infiltration of Communists, and so forth ; you were fully
aware of that ?
Secretary Stevens. I was, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. How did you learn of the proposed investigation, if
one was proposed, while you were in Montana ?
Secretary Stevens. I saw a news item in a local paper, the Great
Falls Tribune of September 4, 1953.
]\Ir. Jenkins. What was the tenor of that news item, in brief?
Secretary Stevens. The tenor of the news item was that Senator
McCarthy had found a disturbing situation with respect to three Army
employees in the First Army area in New York.
JSIr. Jenkins. Particularly, state whether or not that was centered
at Fort Monmouth, if you know ?
Secretary Stevens. It was not.
Mr. Jenkins. But in the First Army area in New York ?
Secretary Ste\t:ns. Correct.
Mr. Jenkins. As a result of that information you then obtained,
what did you do immediatel}' ?
Secretary Stevens. I immediately went down to the railroad station
in Harlowton, Mont., and sent a telegram to Senator McCarthy, stat-
ing that I had noticed this news item, that I was disturbed about it,
that I was returning to Washington on Monda}'^ iiight, that I would
call him on Tuesday morning, the 8th of September, that I hoped I
could see him that day because I wanted to get right into the matter
with him ; and I also stated that I would oppose Communist infiltra-
tion of the Army to the limit of my ability. That also was in the
telegram.
Mr. Jenkins. Do you have a copy of that telegram ?
Secretarv Stevens. Yes, sir.
l.Ir. Jenkins. Will you file that for the record, Mr. Stevens, please?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. Do you want it read, sir?
Mr. Jenkins. State whether or not the copy you are now filing is a
correct copy of the original you sent Senator McCarthy on Sep-
tember 4 ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes ; it is a correct copy, a correct copy.
Mr. Jenkins. A correct copy?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION" 105
Mr. Wj^lch. Mr. Chairman, it is a short telegram. I would like to
sufrii'est that it be read.
Mr. Jfxkins. You may do so.
Secretary Ste\-exs (reading) :
Harlowton, Mont., September 4, 1953.
Senator Joseph R. McCaetht,
United States Senate,
Washington, D. C:
Spending a few days visiting in Montana inclnding luncheon with Governor
Aronson Thursday in Helena. Have just read article Friday's Great Falls
Tribune indicating you are dissatisfied with some action by First Army Head-
quarters. Am returning Washington Tuesday morning and will call your otEce
to offer my services in trying to assist you to correct anything that may be
wrong. Will greatly appreciate opportunity of discussing matter with you. You
may be sure I will oppose Communist infiltration of Army to limit of my ability.
Highest regards.
Bob Stevens.
Mr. Jexkixs. Did you receive any reply to that telegram, Mr.
Secretary ?
Secretary Ste\'exs. I learned after I got back that Senator Mc-
Carthy's office. I don't knov/ whether it was the Senator personally or
not, attempted to contact my office, I believe on the same day, which
was September 4.
Mr. Jenkins. When did you contact Senator McCarthy after the
transmission of this telegram you just read?
Secretary Stem^ns. I returned to Washington on Labor Day evening
nnd on the next morning, that was Tuesday, September 8, 1 telephoned
Senator McCarthy's office for an appointment. I explained that I
had
Mr. Jenkins. Did you initiate that appointment ?
Secretary Stevens. I did. I told him
Mr. Jenkins. Did you see the Senator on that day ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. That was September 8 ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Where did you see him ?
Secretary Stevens. I met him in his office, Mr. Jenkins.
jVIr. Jenkins. Who was present ?
Secretary Ste\-ens. Senator McCarthy was present, I think Senator
Dirksen was present, there were a number of i^hotographers in the
office, and I think probably 2 or 3 other people whose names I cannot
recall.
]\Ir. Jenkins. I do not think there will be any dispute about the
photographers.
Mr. Secretary, I will ask you at this time to detail to the committee
insofar as you are able to do so, either from memory or any memoran-
dum you made of that interview, the discussion that took place be-
tween you and Senator McCarthy on September 8.
Secretary Ste\t:ns, I have no memorandum about it, Mr. Jenkins.
My recollection is that this being the first occasion on which I had
met with Senator McCarthy for committee business
Mr. Jenkins. That was your first official contact with him, is that
correct;?
Secretary Stevens. That is correct.
Mr. Jenkins. Very well.
46620°— 54— pt. 3 2
lOG SPECIAL IiSTVESTIGATION
Secretary Stevens. My recollection is that we spent the time in
discussing the cases that he was intereste^l in ; that of these three em-
ployees in the New York area. I assured the Senator of my coopera-
tion in that regard, or any other regard.
He invited me to attend a hearing, an executive meeting, of this
committee that afternoon, on the 8th of September, which I did.
Mr. Jenkins. Which occurred here in Washington ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Where?
Secretary Stevens. It was in one of the committee rooms. I can't
positively identify it, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. On that occasion, that is, your meeting prior to the
executive session, did you at that time make any suggestion whatever
to the Senator or offer any opposition whatever to his proposed in-
vestigation of these three men in the First Army area?
Secretary Stevens. None.
Mr. Jenkins. On the contrary, state whether or not at that time you
proffered your full coojieration and support.
Secretary Stevens. I did. That was my whole philosophy.
JSIr. Jenkins. You attended an executive session that afternoon?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Will you tell the committee what transpired ? Was
there anything of interest or that in your opinion sheds any light on
the issues here that transpired at that session ?
Secretary Stevens. I personally don't feel there was anything that
afternoon that bears importantly on the issues here. Since it was
an executive session
Mr. Jenkins. Will you tell who was present ?
Secretary Stevens. Senator McCarthy was there, and I think Sen-
ator Dirksen, and I think Mv. Jones of Mr. Potter's office was there ;
Senator McCarthy, Mr. Schine, Mr. Cohn, I believe.
Mr. Jenkins. I will ask you whether or not, ]\Ir. Secretary, that
was the first meeting you had had with G. David Schine?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir, according to my best recollection, that
is the first time I met him.
Mr. Jenkins. And you say he was present at that executive session ?
Secretary Stevens. I met him that daj^, j'es.
Mr. Jenkins. Did, or not, you learn on that occasion that he was
a consultant on the Senator's staff?
Secretary Stevens. I did.
IMr. Jenkins. Did he participate in that meeting that afternoon?
Secretary Stevens. Not in an important way, according to my
recollection.
Mr. Jenkins. State whether or not on that occasion, either Senator
McCarthy or any member of his staff made any suggestion to you
whatever with reference to G. David Schine and particularly with
reference to whether or not they wanted any particular concessions
or preferences extended to him.
Secretary Stevens. I recall no such conversation, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. When was your next meeting with either Senator
McCarthy or his staff?
Secretaiy Stevens. That was, the next meeting was on September
16.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 107
Mr. Jenkins. We are passing now from September 8 to September
16, is that correct ?
Secretary Ste\t:ns. That is correct.
Mr. Jenkins. Where was the September 16 meeting held?
Secretary Stevens. That was in the apartment of Mr. and Mrs.
Schine, Waldorf Towers, in New York.
Mr. Jenkins. You mean that the apartment of the father and
mother of G. David Schine?
Secretary Stevens. That was my miderstanding, Mr. Jenkins.
Mr. Jenkins. Were you personally acquainted with Mv. and Mrs.,
I believe, J. Myer Schine ?
Secretary STE^^ENS. No, I was not.
Mr. Jenkins. Is that David Schine's father you now know ?
Secretary Stevens. I think that that is the name.
Mr. Jenkins. What was the occasion of you being at their apart-
ment in the Waldorf Towers, New York, on September 16 ?
Secretary Stevens. The occasion was that Senator McCarthy was
in New York, and I was going to be in New York, and I wanted to
follow up with him any loose ends or items of business in connection
with his investigation in New York, or any other matters that he
wanted to discuss,
Mr. Jenkins. Was that your purpose in being in New York City ?
Secretary Stevens. No, sir; that was not my primary purpose on
that particular trip.
Mr. Jenkins. But was it an incidental purpose, that you wanted
to discuss with Senator McCarthy ?
Secretary Ste\tens. I wouldn't call it incidental. I certainly had
it very much on my mind.
Mr. Jenkins. Did you know then that Senator McCarthy intended
to investigate espionage and infiltration of Communists in the First
Army area?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. How had you obtained that knowledge? Direct
from Senator McCarthy, was it?
Secretary Ste^^ens. You see it had already started with respect
to the first three employees.
Mr. Jenkins. Did he tell you when he laid his plans or did the
spadework or groundwork for conducting that investigation in the
First Army area ?
Secretary Steat:ns. No, sir; the first I knew
Mr. Jenkins. I see, but you knew on September 16 ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. That the investigation was forthcoming?
Secretary Ste\'ens. I knew the one in the First Army area.
Mr. Jenkins. And the discussion with Senator McCarthy was on
your agenda on that trip ?
Secretary Stevens. Certainly was and I telephoned him.
Mr. Jenkins. And by invitation, did you go to the apartment of
Mr. and Mrs. Schine?
Secretary Stevens. Wliai is that?
Mr. Jenkins. At whose invitation did you go to the apartment of
Mr. and Mrs. Schine ?
108 SPECIAL INVESTrcATION
Secretary Stevens. I contacted Senator IVIcCarthy and asked for
an appointment and he suggested that I meet him there at about 10
o'clock in the morning, September 16.
]Mr. Jenkixs. I will ask you whether or not you had breakfast there
that day, that morning.
Secretary Stev-ens. We sat at the breakfast table, and I think that
I had some coffee, although I had previously had breakfast.
]\Ir. Jenkixs. Who was present on that occasion, Mr. Secretary?
Who was i^resent on that occasion ?
Secretary Stevexs. Senator McCarthy was present, David Schine
was present, Mrs. Schine, senior, I met while I was there, and there
may have been others, possibly Mr. Cohn might have been there.
Mr. Jexkixs. Will you please now tell this committee in detail
what if anything was said to you on that occasion by Senator
McCarthy, G. David Schine, or anyone else present with reference
to G. David Schine.
Secretary STE^^Ns. Yes ; my recollection is that Senator McCarthy
on this occasion asked me for a commission for David Schine. Since
I was familiar with the fact that the application for a commission for
David Schine had been turned down some weeks previously, I moved
away from that subject as rapidly as I could.
Mr. Jenkins. Pardon me, Mr. Secretary.
Did you know at that time that a previous application on the part
of Schine for a commission had been declined by the Army?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, I did, sir.
Mr. Jexkixs. Did you know on information that at that time over-
lures had been made to various people including General Ileber,
General Smith, and perhaps others by members of the JSIcCarthy
committee for a commission for G. David Schine ?
Secretary Stevexs. I knew about the cases referring to General
Reber and General Smith ; yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Did you know that G. David Schine liad been to the
Pentagon for the purpose of procuring a commission ?
Secretary Stem^.ns. I did.
Mr. Jenkins. Did you know the circumstances under which he
came?
Secretary Ste\t:xs. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jexkins. We are going back now, when did that knowledge
reach you ?
Secretary Stevens. During the month of July 1953.
Mr. Jenkins. I will ask you, Mr. Secretary, to tell what informa-
tion you had with reference to overtures that had been made for a
commission for Mr. Schine?
Secretaiy Stevi:xs. Excuse me, sir.
]Mr. Jexkins. And with reference to what Mr. Schine did subse-
quent thereto with reference to getting a commission.
Secretaiy Stevens. Well, I know that about the 8th of July, Sena-
tor McCarthy's office sent for General Reber to come up to his office
and this General Reber, as he has testified, was asked about a com-
mission for David Schine.
General Reber told me about this later, and he said that the Senator
indicated the need for speed because David Schine might be drafted
before too long, and Mr. Cohn came into the meeting according to
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION" 109
General Eeber and also stressed the need for speed. And I knew
about this, and I know that David Scliine was told that he would
have to tile an application and that this application was filed, although
my recollection is that it took two trips by David Schine to the
Pentagon in order to file.
Mr.^ENKixs. Was it your information that the first application
was haphazardly and incompletely filled out by jNIr. Schine ?
Secretary Ste\t.xs. That Vv'as what General Reber indicated to me.
Mr. Jenkins. What was your information with reference to a tele-
phone conversation from Mr. Schine to the Pentagon v*'ith respect to
his coming over, and what were his words ?
Secretary Stevens. His words were that he asked if could come over
to the Pentagon and "hold up his hand."
Mr. Jenkins. What did that signify to your mind ?
Secretary Stevens. That signified to my mind that David Schine
thought that he was on the verge of getting a commission, and wanted
to come right over and hold up his hand and be sworn in for a direct
commission in the Reserve.
Mr. Jenkins. And you or anyone under your direction or control
told Schine that he would be given a commission ?
Secretary Stevens. No, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Going back now to New York City and the Waldorf
Towers Apartment of Mr. and Mrs. J. ]\leyer Schine, on the 16th day
of September, I ask you specifically what, if anything Senator Mc-
Carthy said to you on that occasion with reference to a commission
for G. David Schine.
Secretary Stevens. It is my recollection that Senator McCarthy
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Secretary, may I ask you this : Do you have any
memorandum of that conversation ?
Secretary Stevens. No, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. What is your recollection on it, that is, is your recol-
lection clear or is it hazy with respect to that conversation ?
Secretary Stevens. Mr. Jenkins, my recollection is entirely clear
that on at least one occasion Senator McCarthy asked me for a com-
mission for David Schine.
Mr. Jenkins. I am talking particularly now about September 16 in
the Schine apartment in New York.
Secretary Stevens. That is right, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Is your mind clear on that or is it hazy ?
Secretary Steatsns. It is not clear.
Mr. Jenkins. It is not clear?
Secretary Stevens. No.
Mr. Jenkins. Do you give it as your best recollection ?
Secretary Stevens. That is right.
Mr. Jenkins. And Senator McCarthy then asked you for a com-
mission for Mr. Schine ?
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, I am sorry, I did not hear the
last answer made by Mr. Stevens.
Could I have that read back ?
Senator Mundt. Will the reporter read it back ?
(The reporter read from his notes as requested.)
Senator Mundt. Is that the information the Senator desires ?
Senator McCarthy. That is right.
110 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Senator Mundt. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Jenkins. Is there any other event or statement connected with
the September 16 visit at the Schine apartment that sheds any light
on the issues of this controversy, Mr. Secretary ?
Secretary Stea-ens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Will you please tell these gentlemen on the committee
what that is ?
Secretary Stevens. I remember very clearly Senator McCarthy ask-
ing me why I could not make use of what he called David Schine's
specinl qualifications, and he went on to suggest that David Schine
might be made a special assistant to me or perhaps a special assistant
to the Intelligence Division of G-2 division of the Army in connection
with Communists. I told Senator McCarthy that I did not think
such an arrangement was possible, especially where a young man of
draft age was concerned.
]\Ir. Jenkins. Did anything else occur there of interest, Mr.
Secretary ?
Secretary Stevens. I think that is the substance of what bears on
the issues.
Mr. Jenkins. "Wliere did you go from there?
Secretary Stevens. I came back to Washington.
Mr. Jenkins. Did you go uptown in New York to any meeting of
the Senator's committee ?
Secretary Stevens. No, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Do you recall whether or not on that occasion David
Schine drove you anywhere in his automobile?
Secretary Stevens. He did not.
Mr. Jenkins. He did not.
You forthwith came back to Washington ?
Secretary STE^^:NS. That is correct.
Mr. Jenkins. Did you have, prior to coming here, a conversation
with Senator McCarthy with respect to his investigations in the First
Army area?
Secretary Stevens. I discussed that with him, yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Were there any conclusions reached with respect to
that investigation?
Secretary Ste\-ens. Well, we were processing those three cases to
find out what the facts were.
Mr. Jenkins. There were three men then under investigation that
you knew of ?
Secretary Ste\t:ns. Two men and one woman.
Mr. Jenkins. You had received that information from Senator
McCarthy, that is, the names of these 2 men and 1 woman ?
Secretary Stevens. As I say, those were the three that I saw origi-
nally in the paper.
INIr. Jenkins. When, after September 16 did you next contact either
the Senator or his staif or the Senator and his staff contact you, by
telephone or otherwise ?
Secretary Stevens. My recollection is that it was on the 21st of
September at an executive hearing of this committee.
!NIr. Jenkins. Where ?
Secretary Stevens. Here in this building.
Mr. Jenkins. Here in this building ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 111
Mr. Jenkins. Did you have any discussion with Senator McCarthy
or the members of his staff at that time ?
Secretary Stevens. This was — I came over, on the invitation of
Senator McCarthy, to listen to testimony that was going on in execu-
tive session.
Mr. Jenkins. AYas anything said to you on that occasion or on
that day by either the Senator or any member of his staff with refer-
ence to G. David Schine ?
Secretary STE^^:NS. I do not recall that there was.
Mr. Jenkins. Is there any other event that occurred that day, that
is, the 21st day of September, of any interest ?
Secretary Stevens. Well, of course the proceedings in the hearing,
Mr. Jenkins, were of interest to me. I don't know
Mr. Jenkins. But with respect to any attempt on the part of this
committee unduly to secure preferences for Schine?
Secretary Ste\t;ns. No, sir.
IMr. Jenkins. ]\Ir. Secretary, when was your next contact with the
Senator and his committee ?
Secretary Stevens. I think the next contact was on the 2d of
October.
Mr. Jenkins. "Where was that?
Secretary Ste\-ens. That was in my office at the Pentagon.
Mr. Jenkins. At whose invitation?
Secretary Ste\t:ns. That was as a result — that was motivated from
the Senator's end of the line.
Mr. Jenkins. Initiated by the Senator or his staff?
Secretary Stevens. That is correct.
ISIr. Jenkins. For what purpose ?
Secretary Stevens. The purpose
Mr. Jenkins. What were the events leading up to the initiation
of that conference by the McCarthy investigating committee?
Secretary Stevens. Well, Mr. Colin came over to see me, and he
was
Mr. Jenkins. Prior to October 2?
Secretary Ste\t:ns. No ; on the 2d.
Mr. Jenkins. On the 2d?
Secretary Stevens. Yes. And he was joined a few minutes after
he got there by Mr. Carr.
Senator ^IcCartht. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. A point of order ?
Senator McCarthy. A point of order. I think the record should
show, while there is certainly nothing improper about the Secretary's
doing it, he has a perfect right to do it, but the Secretary should show,
however, that he is not making the answers from memory but from
a memorandum which has been prepared and is before him. I think
the record should show who prepared the memorandum.
If I am incorrect in this, that the Secretary is not using the memo-
randum, I think the record should show that.
May I make it clear, Mr. Secretary, I am not indicating there is
anything improper about you using the memorandum, but I do tliink
it should be clear.
Mr. Jenkins. Senator, I will ask that question next.
Senator Mundt. Counsel will solicit tlie information.
112 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Stevens, are you referring to a memorandum in
the giving of your testimony ?
Secretary Stevens. Very rarely. I have here what I call a chrono-
logical list of dates.
Mr. Jenkins. I will ask you who prepared that memorandum for
you. Did you or did someone on your staff ?
Secretary Stevens. I think it was the result of a joint effort, Mr.
Jenkins.
Mr. Jenkins. Between you and who?
Secretary Stevens. And counsel.
Mr. Jenkins. That is, Mr. Welch?
Sacretary Stevens. And Mr. St. Clair.
Mr. Jenkins. State whether or not it was prepared in your own
recollection of events and/or any memoranda, data, or documents that
you have in your possession.
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Is it in your opinion an accurate memorandum?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Very well.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Counsel, might I request that the memo-
randum in its entirety be made a part of the record so that anyone
reading the record will know what the Secretary is referring to when
he makes his answers?
Mr. Jenkins. Do you have any objection, Mr. Stevens, to making
that memorandum a part of the record when you shall have finished
with it?
Mr. Welch. Mr. Cliairman, a copy of this chronology has been
handed to Mr. Jenkins, and Mr. Jenkins' knowledge of the case happily
is so good that he does not have to refer to it.
Mr. Jenkins. I am not referring to it.
Mr. Welch. Apparently the witness has to refer to it very seldom,
but Mr. Jenkins, I think, will confirm that a copy was supplied him.
Mr. Jenkins. But the Senator wanted a copy filed as an exhibit to
Mr. Stevens' testimony, and I take it you have no objection to that, do
you, Mr. Stevens or Mr. Welch?
Mr. Welch. JNIay I add that it is mostly a simple chronology and
it is not fully embrasive of all the testimony the witness will give.
Mr. Jenkins. But is there any objection to it whatever it may be?
Mr. Welch. Mr. Jenkins, if it were a secret, it would not be in your
possession.
Mr. Jenkins. Thank you very much.
Senator Mundt. Does the Chair understand from that answer that
there is no objection to it being filed?
Mr. Welch. There is none.
(The memorandum referred to above was marked "Exhibit No. 1"
and will be found in the appendix on p. 135.)
Senator McClellan. Mr, Chairman, then we set a precedent by this
procedure and I shall insist that every Avitness who now appears here-
after that refers to any memorandum give like testimony and file it
with the committee.
Mr. Jenkins. Very well.
Senator Mundt. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Secretary, we are now at the meeting in your
office in the Pentagon October 2, is that correct ?
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 113
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
JSIr. Jenkins. Wlio is present at that meeting?
Secretary Stevens. Mr. Colin came in first and was later joined a
few minutes later by Mr. Carr. I was the only other person there.
Mr. Jenkins. Senator McCarthy was not present at any time at that
meeting ?
Secretary Stevens. No, sir.
Mr, Jenkins. Will you please now tell this committee in detail
what occurred at that meeting ?
Secretary Stevens. Mr. Cohn told me about the forthcoming in-
vestigation at Monmouth, and he said that General Lawton, the
commanding general of the Fort Monmouth installation, had taken
some action which made it difficult for tlie staff of Senator Mc-
Carthy's committee to get the information they wanted by talking
with the people they wanted to talk to at Fort Monmouth. And he
said it was impairing their ability to do the job.
I said. Well, I wanted to cooperate with the committee to the
very limit of my ability, and in their presence, then and there, I
called General Lawton on the telephone
Mr. Jenkins. What did you say to General Lawton then and there
in the presence of Mr. Cohn and Mr. Carr ?
Secretary Stevens. I told General Lawton that I wanted full co-
operation by him and the members of his staff, and that he was to
make available those people at his installation that the properly ac-
credited representatives of Senator McCarthy's committee wanted to
interview.
Mr. Jenkins. What else, if anything, transpired on that occasion
between you and Mr. Cohn and Mr. Carr, and particularly with
reference to G. David Sehine ?
Secretary Stevens. Mr. Cohn brought up the matter of G. David
Sehine, and wanted to know if he couldn't be assigned to New York
City.
Mr. Jenkins. Why did he say he wanted him assigned to New
York City?
Secretary Stevens. Well, he said there was a lot of committee work
that had to be attended to, and that he was sure there were various
assignments around New York City that the Army could assign
David Sehine to.
Mr. Jenkins. What was your reply to that ?
Secretary Stevens. My reply to that was that if David Sehine were
actually inducted into the Anny, that he would have to take the
regular Army training. I did indicate to him that if committee
business required David Schine's assistance in the early stages of
his military training, that I would cooperate to the best of my ability
in making David Sehine available for committee work providing it
did not interfere with his training.
Mr. Jenkins. I think now is a good time, Mr. Secretary, for you
to explain to this committee the routine through which a draftee is
put upon being inducted into the Army, and particularly with ref-
erence to his training, the duration of his training, and the character
of his training, without going into unnecessary detail.
Secretary Stevens. Well, in general, Mr. Jenkins, what is known
as the preindoctrination period is a period during which the inductee
46620'— 54— pt. 3 3
114 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
is sent to the induction or reception center, and it is a period during
which he is being issued Iris clotliing, and being given various tests,
medical attenticm, assigned to unit, and in tlie ordinary course of
events all of that takes in the general nature of about a week or two.
It depends somewhat
Mr. Jenkins. Does that occur immediately after the induction of
the draftee into the Army, after he is sworn in ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir ; it usually does. _
Mr. Jenkins. That requires about a week's time ?
Secretary Stevens. Sometimes longer.
Mr. Jenkins. Does it occur on the base at the camp to which the
inductee is assigned ?
Secretary Stevens. The reception center may or may not be on that
particular base. In this case it was.
Mr. Jenkins. Following that, what is the routine?
Secretary Stevens. Then at the start of the next cycle of basic train-
ing Avhich might happen to hit within a week after the inductee came
in, or it might be 2, or in some cases even as long as 3 weeks, the
inductee j»ins that cycle. That cycle is 16 weeks of basic training
which is broken in the middle after the eighth week, with 2 weeks*
leave.
Mr. Jenkins. Is there any such thing in the regulations or routine
except in exceptional cases for a draftee to evade or escape that cycle
of training ?
Secretary Stevens. You mean the 16 weeks of basic training?
Mr. Jenkins. That is what I mean.
Secretary Stevens. No, sir; there is no reason to escape that, sir,
that I know of.
Mr. Jenkins. All right, Mr. Cohn discussed with you the assign-
ment of Schine to the New York area ; is that correct ? On October 2 ?
Secretary Stevens. That is right.
Mr. Jenkins. Did or not he say anything about making an exception
to the rule with respect to Schine insofar as his basic training was
concerned ?
Secretary Stevens. He wanted him assigned.
Mr. Jenkins. Will you tell the committee what that was?
Secretary Stevens. He wanted him assigned to New York without
basic training.
Mr. Jenkins. What was your reply to that, Mr. Secretary?
Secretary Stevens That that could not be done.
Mr. Jenkins. Why did he tell you he wanted him assigned to New
York without basic training ?
Secretary Stevens. He indicated that there was committee work
that David Schine was needed for, I remember that very clearly.
]\[r. Jenkins. Had you ever up to that time excused a draftee from
basic training ?
Secretary Stevens. I had no knowledge of any exception ever being
made.
Mr. Jenkins. Very well. Will you relate to the committee anything
else that transpired on that October 2 meeting?
Secretary Stevens. I think that just about covers it, Mr. Jenkins.
Mr. Jenkins. You say Mr. Frank Carr was present ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 115
Mr. Jenkins. Did Mr. Carr make any statement whatever insofar
as your recollection enables you to answer that question ?
Secretary Stevens. Do you mean with respect to David Schine ?
j\Ir. Jenkins. Did Mr. Carr make any statement at that conference,
and did he intercede for Schine ?
Secretary Stevens. I do not recollect that he did. I think the con-
versation on Schine was entirely with Mr. Colin.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr, Stevens, I will ask you whether or not on that
occasion, I will ask you to state the degree of insistence on the part of
My. Cohn with respect to Schine being excused from a part of his
basic training or all of it, or being transferred to the First Army
area ?
Secretary Stevens. "Well, Mr. Jenkins, I felt that it was somewhat
unusual, and that there was a degree of insistence in Mr. Schine's
approach to the subject. It is a little hard to evaluate the degree of
a situation such as that. I knew that Mr. Cohn was serious about
this matter, and there was no question about that.
Mr. Jenkins. When was your next contact with this committee?
Secretary Stevens. The next contact with the committee was on
the 13th of October.
Mr. Jenkins. "Where was that?
Secretary Stevens. That was in New York.
Mr. Jenkins. "Who was present?
Secretary Stevens. I went to New York in order to attend hearings
of this committee.
Mr. Jen^kins. Being conducted by Senator McCarthy ?
Secretary Stevens. Being conducted by Senator McCarthy.
Mr. Jenkins. And Mr. Cohn and Mr. Carr and other members of
his staff?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. "Were those executive hearings?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. "Were they in connection with the alleged infiltration
of Communists in the Army?
Secretary Stevens. At Fort Monmouth ; yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. And espionage?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. At whose direction or who initiated that visit to
New York on October 13, that is was that done of your own volition,
and did the Senator i»vite you or how was that, Mr. Secretary ?
Secretary Stevens. I cannot exactly remember, and I know that I
wanted to go to some of those hearings, and they had started on the
8th of September, officially, on the Fort Monmouth hearings.
Mr. Jenkins. Did anyone accompany you on that trip ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. "Who was that?
Secretary Stevens. Mr. Adams.
Mr. Jenkins. "When did Mr. Adams become counsel for the Depart-
ment of the Army ?
Secretary Stevens. On the 1st day of October.
Mr. Jenkins. He had then been in office 13 days ?
Secretary Stevens. That is correct.
Mr. Jenkins. State whether or not you had assigned him as your
liaison officer or contact between you and the McCarthy committee?
Ii6 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir ; wlien Mr. Adams became the counselor
for the Department of the Army, I called him into my office and I
sat down and I had a chat with him, and I charged him with the
primary responsibility of liaison between the Department of the
Army and this committee. I told him that I wanted him to cooperate
fully with the committee, and made it his primary mission. Of
course, Mr. Adams was new to the job.
Mr. Jenkins. Did you personally know Mr. Adams at that time?
Secretary Stevens. I met him only a few days before.
Mr. Jenkins. Had you made a thorough and complete investiga-
tion of his qualifications and of his record ?
Secretary Stevens. I certainly had looked into it ; yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Very well.
Secretary Stevens. I was very pleased with it.
Mr. Jenkins. Now, will you state, INIr. Secretary, what occurred
in New York on October 13, and particularly what, if anything, was
said or done shedding light on the issue of w^hether or not the Senator
or any member of his staff sought unduly to obtain preferential treat-
ment for G. David Schine ?
Secretary Stevens. They were executive hearings, and I think it
is the Federal Court Building there in New York, and it took place in
the morning. I sat as a spectator, and listened to the questioning of
the witnesses, and there was no discussion about Mr. Schine during
the course of the hearings.
I invited Senator McCarthy and his staff to have lunch with me,
and we did have luncheon.
Mr. Jenkins. Where ?
Secretary Stevens. At the Merchants Club in New York.
Mr. Jenkins. Was anything said at that luncheon between the
respective parties to that controversy with reference to Schine?
Secretary Ste^t:ns. I don't recall anything significant.
Mr. Jenkins. Was there not the discussion in the main with refer-
ence to the Senator's investigation which was then under way?
Secretary Stem^.ns. That is correct, Mr. Jenkins.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Stevens, did you at that time attempt to or
exert any effort to forestall or curtail or halt that investigation ?
Secretary STE^^:NS. Quite the contrary, sir, I did everything I
could to assist him.
Mr. Jenkins. Did you attend an executive session that afternoon?
Secretary Stevens. I did.
Mr. Jenkins. Is that all that occurred on October 13 that you con-
sider of interest?
Secretary Stemcns. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. And as I understand it now, nothing was said by
either the Senator, Mr. Cohn, or Mr. Carr, or other members of his
staff, with reference to G. David Schine on that occasion?
Secretary Stevens. I remember nothing in particular.
Mr. Jenkins. When was your next meeting with the committee or
any member of its staff ?
Secretary Stem!:ns. The next day, on the 14th.
Mr. Jenkins. In New York City ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. You stayed there overnight?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir^
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 117
Mr. Jenkins. You did not see the Senator or any member of his
staff on the evening or night
Secretary Stearns. I did, on the evening of the 13th of October. By
the way, if I said that the hearings at Fort Monmouth officially started
in September, I meant it to be October. I think the official starting
date -was the 8th of October.
Mr. Jenkins. Very ^vell.
^Yho was it, Mr. Secretary, that you saw on the night of the 13th;
where, what was said, particularly with reference to Schine ?
Secretary Stemsns. Well, there was — Mr. Jenkins, there was a din-
ner party.
Mr. Jenkins. ^Vliere was it given ?
Secretary Stevens. It was given in a private dining room at the
Waldorf Astoria.
Mr. Jenkins. By whom?
Secretary Stevens. I think it was given by Mr. and Mrs. Schine,
Senator. And I think Senator McCarthy invited me to attend.
Mr. Jenkins. Did you attend?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir,
Mr. Jenkins. That was a dinner party given by the parents of
G. David Schine, it was, at the time ?
Secretary Stevens. That is correct.
Mr. Jenkins. On the night of October 13 ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Attended by you ?
Secretary Ste\-ens. Attended by me.
Mr. Jenkins. Senator McCarthy ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. G. David Schine ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Cohn? _
Secretary Steatens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Anyone else ?
Secretary Stevens. Judge Cohn and Mrs. Cohn were there.
Mr. Jenkins. They are the parents of Mr. Roy Cohn ?
Secretary Stevens. That is correct. ISIrs. McCarthy was there.
Mr. Jenkins. The Senator's wife?
Secretary Stevens. That is right. Mr. and Mrs. Richard Berlin
were there. There were, as I recall it, there were two young ladies
that were there, but I don't recall their names, Mr. Jenkins. And
possibly another couple.
Mr. Jenkins. I didn't get that last statement.
Secretary Stevens. I said possibly another couple.
Mr. Jenkins. What, if anything, Mr. Secretary, was said to you
on that occasion by any of the McCarthy staff with reference to
Private Schine ?
Secretary Stevens. I have no recollection of anything that evening.
Mr. Jenkins. Did Private Schine say anything to you about any
preferences being accorded to him before or after he was drafted into
the Army ?
Secretary Stevens. Will you repeat that, sir ?
Mr. Jenkins. Did Private Schine himself make any recpest of you
on that occasion ?
118 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Secretary Stevens. Not on that occasion ; no, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Then as I understand it, Mr. Secretary, there wag
nothing of Interest on that occasion insofar as this committee is con-
cerned witli reference to the allegations in your bill of particulars;
is that correct?
Secretary Ste^tins. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. When was your next contact with the committee?
Secretary Stevt.ns. Well, I stayed overnight in New York that
night and the following morning, by arrangement, David Schine
picked me up in his car at the corner of 37th Street and Park Avenue
at approximately 9 : 30 in the morning to take me down to the hearings.
]Mr. Jenkins. Yfho made those arrangements for David Schine
to take you down to the hearings?
Secretary Ste\'ens. He and I made those arrangements, as I recall
it, the previous evening.
Mr. Jenkins. The two of you rode together in an automobile driven
by him, then, to the Federal courthouse, where the Senator was con-
ducting his hearing ?
Secretary Ste\t:ns. That is right.
Mr. Jenkins. Did you attend those hearings?
Secretary Ste\t:ns. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Was anything said to you on that day by the Senator
er any member of his staff with reference to any preferential treat-
ment to be accorded Schine ?
Secretary Stevens. Well, Mr. Schine and I had quite an interesting
talk in the car, ridinc: downtown.
Mr. Jenkins. Will you relate what that conversation was, ]\Ir.
Secretary ?
Secretary Ste-st^ns. Well, the conversation was along the line that
I was doing a good job in ferreting out Communists.
Mr. Jenkins. Was that your statement or his?
Secretary Stevens. That Mr. Schine's statement.
Mr. Jenkins. Very well.
Secretary Stevens. That he thought I could go a long way in this
field. And that he would like to help me. He thought that it would
be a much more logical plan for him to become a special assistant of
mine
Mr. Jenkins. Than to do what?
Secretary Stevens. To assist in the Communist program, Commu-
nist-seeking program in the Army, and he thought that would bs a
more logical assignment than being inducted into the Army.
I told David Schine substantially this
Mr. Jenkins. Is that the first time that David Schine ever inti-
mated to you that he wanted some special dispensation?
Secretary Stevens. Tliat is my first definite recollection.
Mr. Jenkins. Very well. And you told David Schine what?
Secretary STEMi;NS. I said to him that one of the best things that
ever happened to me in my life was my opportunity for service in
the United States Army in two World Wars; that I felt that if
he would face uj:) to his forthcoming induction and approach it in
the ri^ht way, he would look back on it all his life as one of the great
experiences that he had had, and that if for any reason he did not take
his military training, in my opinion he would regret it the rest of his
life.
SPECIAL rNTV'ESTIGATION" 119
And I pointed out to him that I had served ; my sons had served,
and we all think we got a great deal out of it in addition to having
the opportunity of serving our country.
Mr. Jenkins. Do you recall his reply to that, Mr. Secretary?
Secretary Stevens. I think that it made some impression on Mr.
Schine. I don't know, of course, how much.
JNIr. Jenkins. That was on October 14, as we understand it ?
Secretary Stevens. That is correct.
Mr. Jenkins. During that day, at any time, either at the hearings,
luncheons, or elsewhere, did or not Senator McCarthy or any mem-
ber of his staff speak to you with reference to Schine?
Secretary Stevens. I do not recall that.
Mr. Jenkins. When did you come back to Wasl\ington ?
Secretary Stevens. I came back that afternoon, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. When was your nest contact with the committee?
Secretary Stevens. My next contact with the committee was on
October 20.
Mr. Jenkins. Where?
Secretary Stevens. This was a trip that we made to Fort Mon-
mouth.
]\Ir. Jenkins. "We," meaning whom ?
Secretary Stevt.ns. Meaning — had planned a trip, Mr. Jenkins, to
go down there. I wanted to visit the installation, see how things
were.
Mr. Jenkins. The installation at Fort Monmouth, we understand ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir; and I invited Senator McCarthy and
any members of his staff or any members of the committee that cared
to, to go along with me. Senator McCarthy did go, Mr. Cohn went,
Mr. Adams went. Colonel Be Lieu went, Mr. Jones, of Senator Potter's
office, I believe, went, and I think Mr. Rainville went.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr, Jones, of Senator Potter's office; is that correct?
Secretary Sitvens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Was there a representative of any other member of
this committee present?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. I think Mr. Rainville, of Senator
Dirksen's office, was with us.
Mr. Jenkins. Do we understand, IVIr. Secretary, that all of the
men whose names you have mentioned left Washington and went to
Fort Monmouth by plane ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Now, Mr. Secretary, without my asking you specific
questions and for the purpose of expediting this hearing as much as
possible I want you to now take up the events of October 20, begin-
ning with the start of the trip here in Washington and continuing
throughout tlie dav.
Secretary Stevens. Well, we left here by plane and flew to, I think
it was, Eatontown, N. J. There was a fair amount of discussion, of
course, about the Fort Monmouth discussion on the plane going down.
1 had gained the impression on the previous meeting, which was the
14th of October, in New York, that Senator McCarthy was approach-
ing the point where he felt that he would turn the prosecution, if you
will, of the investigation over to the Army, I think this was discussed
some on the plane. We were met, when we landed at the airport, by
120 SPECIAL INVESTIGATIOiSr
Senator H. Alexander Smith, of New Jersey, and General Lawton,
the commanding general. We drove to the Fort Monmouth installa-
tion, and were later joined by Congressman Auchincloss of the Third
New Jersey District. We went into the headquarters building and
had a meeting with General Lawton and members of his staff, which
all of us, as I recall it, from Washington, attended, and that was —
there we had a discussion of the security measures at Fort ]\Ionmouth,
opportunities for questioning the commanding general and members
of his staff. Then when that meeting adjourned, we went out for a
visit around the installation to get an idea of what it was like, w-hat
the different buildings were, and laboratories.
Mr. Jenkins. May I interrupt with one question. Had you not,
prior to that date and since your installation as Secretary of the Army,
visited Fort Monmouth ?
Secretary Stevens. This was my first visit.
]\Ir. Jenkins. Very well. Go ahead.
Secretary Stevens. It was on this trip around to some of these
laboratories, we came to one lab which required a special security
clearance to gain admittance. As Secretary of the Army
Mr. Jenkins. Without giving away any information that might
be of aid or comfort to the enemy, if there is one, describe the nature
of that installation.
Secretary Stevens. That installation has to do with advanced re-
search and development on radar.
Mr. Jenkins. Very well.
Secretary Stevens. I was qualified, as Secretary of the Army, hold-
ing the highest clearances, to enter the laboratory, but it was not clear
whether anybody else was or wasn't. I made an on-the-spot decision
that I wanted to see the lab, and I would take with me those in the
party who had been elected to the Congress by the people of the United
States. That included Senator McCarthy, Senator Smith, and Con-
gressman Auchincloss.
Mr. Jenkins. State whether or not Mr. Adams was admitted.
Secretary Stevens. Yes, Adams, I believe was in. He has proper
clearance, and I think he was in.
Mr. Jenkins. You may proceed. Go ahead.
Secretary Stevens. We spent possibly 10 or 12 minutes in the lab,
and then came out. When we came out I quickly became -aware that
Mr. Cohn was exceedingly angry because he had not been permitted
to go \vith us into the lab.
_ Mr. Jenkins. Now I want you to describe to the committee the reac-
tions, the conduct, the statements of Mr. Cohn on that occasion, stat-
ing what you know personally, stating also information given to you
by those present and whom you expect to use as witnesses in the inves-
tigation of this controversy.
Secretary^ Stevens. All right, Mr. Jenkins. Colonel BeLieu, my
military assistant, told me that Mr. Cohn
Mr. Jenkins. Is he the young man sitting behind you now ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Go ahead.
Secretai-y Stevens. That ]\fr. Cohn had been very provoked, and
that he had made statements substantially as follows : "This is war. I
am cleared for the highest classified information. I have access to
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 121
FBI files wlien I want them. They did tliis just to erabai^rass me.
We will now really investigate the Army."
I also learned later that within the hearino; of Lieutenant Corr
Mr. Jenkins. Will you identify him? You are identifying him
now, I see.
Secretary Ste\'i:ns. Aide to General Lawton, the commanding
general at Fort Monmouth, and of Mr. Slattery, who is the head of
tJie countermeasures division at Fort Monmouth, that within their
hearing Mr. Cohn was heard to say, "This is a declaration of war."
Mr. Jenkins. I will ask you whether or not Corr was and is a
lieutenant ?
Secretary Stevens. That is correct.
Mr. Jenkins. Do you know what'his reply was or what statement
Corr made to you or the commanding officer?
Secretary Stevens. No, I don't know that I do.
Mr. Jenkins. Are you reliably informed by those whomi you will
have present to establish that fact, what Corr's reply was, and will
you please state it?
Secretary Stevens. I can't state it, Mr. Jenkins.
Mr. Jenkins. Very well. I understood you to say you could.
Secretary Stevens. But Lieutenant Corr can and will.
Mr. Jenkins. Will he be available as a witness ?
Secretary Stevens. He will.
Mr. Jenkins. All right.
What next was done or said at Fort Monmouth on October 20 ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. This particular lab, and then we
went into another secret lab, and we had approximately the same
divide-up of people but that was a relatively short visit and when
we came out and we finally got the party together, it was still very
apparent to me that Mr. Cohn was very much provoked by the whole
proceeding. Then we went back to the headquarters building, the
same room we had been in before, and we had a sort of a box luncheon
in that building.
Mr. Jenkins. I want you to tell what transpired at that luncheon.
Secretary Ste\tens. Well, Mr. Cohn was so obviously provoked by
the whole proceeding that I took it upon myself, Mr. Jenkins, to try to
calm him clown a little bit, you might say.
Mr. Jenkins. What did you say or do with the idea of "calming
him down," as you put it ?
Secretary STE\Ti:NS. Well, I said it was too bad that there wasn't
time available at the door of the laboratory to make all of the neces-
sary inquiries about who was cleared for what, and therefore I had
made that on-the-spot decision and I certainly did not intend to
offend anybody by it, but I did the best I could and I did not intend
it as any offense to IMr. Cohn or anyone else.
Mr. Jenkins. Was that in the nature of an apology, Mr. Secretary ?
Secretary Ste\t:ns. I would say that it was.
Mr. Jenkins. Very well. You may proceed.
Secretary Ste\t:ns. Well, I would say it was in the nature of an
apology. I don't know sir, I am trying "to rethink that one over as to
whether "apology" is the right word ; I knew that I had not done any-
thing that was wrong on the one hand ; and I felt in my heart I had
122 SPECIAL IX^'ESTIGATION
done what was right. I tried to protect the interests of the United
States,
Mr. Jenkins. Did you make any effort on that day to stop this in-
vestigation of the First Army Area and Fort Monmouth?
Secretary Ste\'ens. No, sir ; I did not. We talked about it at length
in the meeting.
Mr. Jenkins, Were those statements that you made, whether they
could be construed as an apology or not, designed to prevent the decla-
ration of war?
Secretary Ste\'ens. Ko, sir ; they certainly were not.
Mr. Jenkins, Or a continued investigation of I'ort Monmouth?
Secretary Ste\'ens, When there is a declaration of war, Mr, Jen-
kins, I am Secretary of the Army; and there was a declaration of war,
and I am the Secretary of the Army.
Mr. Jenkins. Very well.
Secretary Stevens, For purposes of this hearing.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Secretary, did anything else occur on the day of
October 20 ?
Secretary Stevens. Well, after some discussion after lunch, there
was a press conference, Senator McCarthy was there and Senator
Smith, and Congressman Auchincloss, and myself, and I think most
of the other gentlemen were in the room, and questions were put back
and forth. Mr, McCarthy made some statements and so did I, and
later we went out and I appeared with Senator McCarthy before the
cameras on the lawn, outside. And then I proceeded back or we pro-
ceeded back to the airport and I returned to Washington.
Mr, Jenkins. And that is a narration, as we understood it, of all
the events that you consider important that occurred on October 20 ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir, I think those are the important ones.
Of course, I could talk a lot more about that today,
Mr, Jenkins. Mr, Secretary, did the Senator and his staff return
to Washington with you that afternoon or evening?
Secretary Stevens. My recollection is, and I would have to check
this, my recollection is that they
Mr. Jenkins, To refresh your recollection, was that or not the date
upon which the Senator had official business in Boston ? I may be in
error about it.
Secretary Stevens. No, I think not, sir.
Mr. Jenkins, Very well. Did the group
Secretary Stevens. As a group, most of us came back, but I couldn't
say positively that nobody went from Monmouth to New York. Per-
haps somebody did,
Mr. Jenkins. When was your next contact with the staff ? That is,
the investigative staff.
Secretary Sit:vens. Well, David Schine called me up on the 21st of
October, I think that was the next day.
]\Ir. Jenkins. And what was said to you on that occasion by David
Schine ?
Secretary Stevens. Well, David Schine, still, I think, harbored the
hope, shall we say, that he could do some special job of investigation
rather than
Mr. Jenkins. With the Army?
Secretary Stevens. Yes.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 123
Mr. Jenkins. In lieu of his services with the committee, is that
what you understood ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, in the event that he actually was taken
into the Army.
]\Ir. Jenkins. Was there anything else of interest in your conversa-
tion with David Schine on October 21?
Secretary Stevens. I don't recall at this moment.
Mr. Jenkins. By whom were you next contacted?
Secretary Stevens. I was contacted by Mr. Colin.
INIr. Jenkins. The date?
Secretary Stevens. The date was the 2Tth of October.
]Mr. Jenkins. Were you in conference with Mr. Cohn on the 27th
of October?
Secretary Stevens. On the telephone.
Mr. Jenkins. Will you please relate the conversation that occurred
at that time ?
Secretary Stevens. Well, Mr. Cohn said, Mr. Cohn advised me, that
David Schine was going to be inducted into the Army on ttie od of
November, and he said he had two ideas in mind with respect to this.
Mr. Jenkins. This is a telephone conservation you are relating?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
!Mr. Jenkins. Very well. Between you and Mr. Cohn ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Very well.
Secretary Stevens. One idea was that David Schine should be
given a furlough, and assigned to New York. The other idea was
Mr. Jenkins. Do you mean a furlough beginning at the beginning
of his service in the Army ?
Secretary Ste\T!:ns. That is what I gathered from the conservation.
Mr. Jenkins. All right.
Secretary Stevens. The other idea was that mayl^e the Central In-
telligence Agency could use David Schine. I said I would be glad
to talk to Allen Dulles about that, the head of CIA, if he wanted me
to, and I did, the next morning.
Mr. Jenkins. With what result?
Secretary Stevens. Negative.
Mr. Jenkins. Did you so advise Mr. Cohn ?
Secretary Stevens. I did.
Mr. Jenkins. By telephone or otherwise?
Secretary Stevens. By telephone.
Mr. Jenkins. Personally or through one of your subordinates?
Secretary Stevens. JMyself.
Mr. Jenkins. Vv'^hat was Mr. Cohn's reaction to that information?
Secretary Ste\'ens. Well, Mr. Cohn's reaction to that was that he
went back to the furlough business, and I indicated that in order to —
if it was necessary^ in order to facilitate the work of this committee
during the transition period of David Schine from a consultant to
this committee to the status of a selectee in the United States Army,
that I would see if I could arrange 2 weeks of temporary duty for
him at First Army in New York for the purpose of being available
to finish up his committee work. He said he would take that up with
Senator McCarthy and let me know.
3-Ir. Jenkins. Did he let you know ?
124 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Secretary Stevens. Yes, he did. He said that the arrangement was
okay.
]\Ir. Jenkins. You did agree, then, for Mr. Schine to be assigned
to New York City during the first 2 weeks of his basic training; is
that what we understand, Mr. Secretary ?
Secretary Stevens. No, sir ; it was not. The basic training was not
to start until later, Mr. Jenkins. That was during the so-called pre-
indoctrination period. I agreed that David Schine could go on tem-
porary duty at First Army if needed by this conunittee for purposes
of committee work.
Mr. Jenkins. Very well.
Secretary Stevens. And I would like to say, if I may, sir, that
the reason that I made that agreement was this: I did not want the
United States Army to be in the position, in any conceivable way, of
obstructing the work of a committee which was then engaged in in-
vestigating the Army.
Mr. Jenkins. Had you been advised that Mr. Schine's work with
the committee was in reference to investigation of the Army?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
]\Ir. Jenkins. And that it was regarded as essential, and that he
had reports to make on his investigations which had not been com-
pleted?
Secretary Stevens. That is right.
Mr. Jenkins. And was your agreement made pursuant to that un-
derstanding ?
Secretary Stevens. That is right.
Mr. Jenkins. That was under date of October 27 ?
Secretary Ste\^ens. ISIr. Cohn's
Mr. Jenkins. Is that correct?
Secretary Stevens. No, sir. Mr. Cohn called me on the 27th on the
two points that I mentioned. I called him back on the 28th. He
said he would take it up with Senator McCarthy and he called me
back on the 31st.
Mr. Jenkins. When were you next contacted by any member of the
investigating staff?
Secretary Stevens. Let's see. I think the next time that I saw any
of them, Mr. Jenkins
Mr. Jenkins. Either by telephone or personally.
Secretary Ste\t:ns. I thinlc it was on the Gth of November.
Mr. Jenkins. And will you tell the committee about that?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
I think that, if you v»-ish, it may be pertinent to say at this point
that in respect of the temporary duty effective November 3
Mr. Jenkins. That was the' date of Schine's induction into the
Army, as we understand, November 3.
Secretary Stovens. Tliat is correct; that almost about the time
that he was assigned to First Army, Mr. Adams received word from
Senator McCarthy that the temporary duty he would like to have
canceled.
Mr. Jenkins. Upon what ground?
Secretary Stevens. This, of course, comes to me from Mr. Adams.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Adams will be available as a witness, as we under-
stand it.
Secretary Stevens. That is right.
SPECIAL mVESTIGATIOJT 125
He said that Senator IVIcCarthy said that he didn't think that David
Schine ought to stay at First Army on temporary duty because the
newspapermen might pick it up and that might prove embarrassing
to him.
JNIr. Jenkins. All right.
Now, you have been asked about the events of November 6.
Secretary STE^^:xs. Yes, sir. The events of November 6 were in
the form of a luncheon at my request in my office, at the Pentagon.
Senator McCarthy was there, JNIr. Cohn was there, and Mr. Carr was
there, and ]\Ir. Aclams was there.
Mr. Jenkins. What was the purpose of that meeting? Why did
you call him?
Secretary Stevens. The purpose of the meeting was to discuss the
Fort Monmouth investigation in the first instance, that was the pri-
mary purpose ; and the second one was
Mr. Jenkins. Was the Fort Monmouth investigation then under
headway ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Being given wide publicity ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. By the press ?
Secretary Stevens. Very wide.
Mr. Jenkins. All right. I want you to tell the committee the events
of November 6 in your office in the Pentagon at which time you, the
Senator, Mr. Carr, and Mr. Cohn were present, and anyone else present.
Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, I would like to say to Mr. Jenkins,
through you, that because his mind moves as swiftly as he does, he
sometimes cuts off the witness before his answer is completed.
Mr. Jenkins. I beg your pardon. I do not intend to.
Mr. Welch. Mr. Stevens started to say there were two subjects,
and he was allowed only to state the first.
Senator Mundt. We will let the Secretary state the other purpose.
Secretary Stevens. The other purpose, from my point of view, was
in order to introduce the new Chief of Staff, the new G-2, and the new
Chief of Information,- respectively, General Eidgway, General
Trudeau, and General Mudgett, to Senator McCarthy and his asso-
ciates. I wanted them to know these gentlemen, to know the type of
leadership that we have in the Army, and to witness my charge to them
and their complete cooperation insofar as the work of the committee
was concerned.
Those were my two principal objectives in suggesting that luncheon.
The Senator and Mr. Cohn and Mr. Carr came to the luncheon, which
was served in my office and I would say lasted for approximately an
hour and a half, after which the three generals came in, and we had
another hour and a half of discussion after their arrival ; I would say
approximately a 3-hour meeting.
Now, at the luncheon I discussed with them the Fort Monmouth
investigation, and I told them that I felt that it had served its pur-
pose; that we were on top of everything that they had given us, and
we were following up, and we had had information on every name
that had been turned up anyway, and that I wanted to have the Army
carry out and, if you will, subject to the approval of this committee,
in the sense that I said that I would render progress reports as to how
126 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
we were doing ; and if it wasn't satisfactory, I knew full well the com-
mittee would point that out, but I wanted to stop the hammering and
the headlines of the press of the country of the Arrny, which was
creating the impression that there was widespread espionage at Fort
Monmouth when such was not the case.
Mr. Jexkixs. Very well. On that occasion — that is, Xovember 6 — •
what, if anything, was said to you or to Mr. Adams or anyone else
present, by a member of the McCarthy investigating staff, with respect
to G. David Schine ?
Secretary Stevens. Well, the Ciuestion of David Schine being avail-
able and the necessity for his being available for conmiittee work was
stressed considerably.
Mr. Jenkins. By whom ?
Secretary Stevens. It was stressed by Senator McCarthy.
Mr. Jenkins. Xoav please tell as accurately as is possible what the
Senator said about David Schine.
Secretary Stevens. Well, he said that they had these reports that
were overdue to the committee, and they had to have them made up ;
and that David Schine was goinij into the Army, and that he had a lot
of information, a good deal of it in liis head, that had to be m.ade
available, and that they must have availability to G. David Schine.
Mr. Jenkins. I believe Schine was then in the Army ?
Secretary Stevens. That is correct.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Secretary, you stated a while ago on direct ex-
amination that you had only one positive, definite recollection of
Senator McCarthy himself discussing David Schine with you with
respect to securing a favor or preferential treatment; is that correct?
Secretary Stevens. Would you restate that, sir, or can the stenog-
rapher read the statement ?
Senator Mundt. The Chair will ask the reporter to read the
question.
(Whereupon, the question was read by the reporter as above
recorded.)
Secretary Stevens. I have the definite recollection of Senator Mc-
Carthy asking me for a commission for David Schine for one thing,
and also asking me to insist on it or rather insisting on his being
available for this committee work.
Mr. Jenkins. I was wondering if this meeting of November 6 was
the date you had in mind with respect to your positive recollection
of Senator McCarthy's intercession for Schine.
Secretary Stevens. Not with respect to a commission.
Mr. Jenkins. Now, perhaps I cut you off.
Had you completed your testimony with respect to the conversation
on the part of the Senator on November 6 ?
Secretary Stevens. No.
Mr. Jenkins. With respect to Schine?
Secretary Stevens. No ; in respect to Schine I think I have stated it.
Mr. Jenkins. You have stated it ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Did anyone else on the committee discuss with you
Schine on that date?
Secretary Stevens. Senator McCarthy did most of it that day.
Mr. Jenkins. Do you recall Mr. Carr stating anything whatever
that day ?
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 127
Secretary Stevens. No, sir.
Mr. Jenkixs. Do you recall Mr. Colin making any statement what-
ever that day with respect to Scliine ?
Secretary Stevexs. My recollection is that Mr. Cohn took part in
that conversation, but not to the extent that the Senator did on that
occasion.
Mr. Jexkixs. The burden of it was that he still had uncompleted
reports that they wanted, on committee work ?
Secretary Ste\'exs. That is right.
Mr. Jexkixs. Is that correct?
Secretary Stevexs. That they needed to help them to get the com-
mittee reports up with.
Mr. Jexkixs. As we understand the last hour and a half of that
conference, it was attended by your Chief of Staff, General Kidgway,
General Trudeau, and General Mudgett, and was anything stated
in their presence with respect to Schine by the McCarthy committee ?
Secretary Stevexs. I don't think so ; no, sir.
Mr. Jexkixs. Did or did not you have any contact or anyone con-
tact you on the following day, November 7 ?
Secretary Stew.xs. Yes, sir, but I think that I should maybe
Mr. Jexkixs. You may feel free to do so if I have cut you off. ^
Secretary Ste%-exs. It isn't cut off, Mr. Jenkins, but I think this is
important, that in respect to the matter that I mentioned before,
namely, the hammering over the head of the Army persistently, creat-
ing the impression that there was espionage in a big way at Fort
Monmouth, which I say was not so, that I told Senator McCarthy
and his associates that 1 had been in office for 10 months, and I had
some responsibilities that I had assumed, and that if they kept on
with these headlines, which in my opinion were utterly unfair, that
they could drive me out of office if they wanted to.
Mr. Jexkixs. Was that stated on November 6 ?
Secretary Stevexs. Yes, sir.
Senator "McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, a point of order. I think the
record should show that the chairman of the committee has no control
whatsoever over headlines, or over what the press says. If the Chair
is to be criticized
Senator Muxdt. That is not a point of order ; you will have an
opportunity during cross-examination to bring out those points.
Secretary Stevexs. I would like to state right now with reference
to that, after an executive committee meeting of this committee. Sen-
ator McCarthy goes out and addresses the press, and he tells them
exactly what he pleases, and that is where the stories are generated.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, a point of order. If the Sec-
retary is going to discuss what I say after an executive meeting I
think the' record should show that his man Adams was present at
every executive meeting, and that his man Adam.s was invited to sit
with me each time I talked with the press ; and that Mr. Adams was
invited to correct any statement that I made if he felt I was in error.
A point of order.
Senator ]\Iuxdt. What is .the point of order ?
Senator McCarthy. If Mr. Stevens would intimate that some im-
proper statement was made to the press after any meeting, then he
should give us the date, and the "time, and the place, and tell what
the improper statement was.
128 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Mr. Jenkins. That is a question of cross-examination, and Senator
McCarthy will have that opportunity shortly. I hope it is shortly.
Senator Mundt. May the Chair suggest — and this may solve the
problem — that we expunge from the record everything beginning
with the Senator's first point of order, including the Secretary's an-
swer, and it can be brought out in cross-examination pertaining to what
took place in the executive session.
Senator Jackson. INIay I just suggest that it is pretty hard to ex-
punge from the record that which again, as I said yesterday, is all over
America at once, and I think perhaps if we were in a court of law it
would be different, but I think we have to be a bit moralistic about it.
Senator Mundt. We will leave it in the record ; it is on the television
screens anyhow and we will proceed in order.
Mr. Jenkins. Now, you were telling about a statement you made to
the effect that if this thing continued and these headlines were em-
blazoned on the front page of the paper, it would drive you out of
office.
Secretary Stevens. I said that it could, that such a thing could
happen and Senator McCarthy said that that was not his intention.
We discussed further the question of how to handle this Fort Mon-
mouth situation. Senator McCarthy then said that he was planning to
look into some situations in industrial plants, and I stated that the
Army, and in fact the whole Defense Department was very much inter-
ested in that subject and had problems connected with it.
I think, Mr. Jenkins, that that covers what I recall of the November
6 meeting that is pertinent at this time.
Mr. Jenkins. You stated when I unhappily interrupted you, that
you received a call on November 7.
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. From whom ?
Secretary Stevens. From Senator McCarthy.
Mr. Jenkins. Do you recall the time of day that call came in?
Secretary Stevens. Not precisely ; no, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Did you personally talk to Senator McCarthy on
that day?
Secretary Ste\tns. I did.
IMr. Jenkins. I will ask you, Mr. Secretary, first of all, does the
Army or does your office, you, as Secretary, sometimes have a tele-
phone conversation monitored ?
Secretary Ste\t:ns. Mr. Jenkins, I would like, if I may, to take a
moment here in order to tell this committee precisely what happened.
Mr. Jenkins. That would be the next question as to why you did it.
But do you sometimes have one monitored ?
Secretary Ste\tens. If I may, I will tell you what the procedure
is, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. If you want to answer the next question now, go right
ahead, it is quite all right.
Secretary Stevens. When I came into the office of Secretary of the
Army, I made inquiry as to, of course, as to who my various assistants
were, and got acquainted with them. And I found that outside of
my door, at a desk there, sits a competent civil servant by the name of
Jack Lucas.
I don't know just how long Mr. Lucas has been in that particular
job, except that I do know that he was there throughout the service
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 129
of Frank Pace, as Secretary of the Army, and I believe back into
Frank Pace's predecessor's regime. I inquired as to what the pro-
cedure was, and I will explain to you what that procedure is, and I
left it unchanged as I came into office precisely as I found it.
The procedure is this : When a telephone call comes in, Mr. Lucas
stays on the line. The reason he stays on the line is in order to assist
the Secretary in doing his job. Let me give you an illustration.
Suppose I receive a telephone call from somelsody in Chicago, who
invites me to come to Chicago to address the annual convention of
some organization. And suppose, by a quick glance at my calendar
I find that I can accept this engagement, and decide that I ought to,
in the interest of the Army. I tlien say, "I will accept this invitation."
The following things have then been set in motion, Mr. Lucas, be-
ing on the line : first, when and where this appearance is to be ; second,
transportation to and from Chicago ; third, hotel reservation in Chi-
cago; fourth, advice to the Fifth Army headquarters in Chicago,
because when I go into one of the Army areas I always want to notify
the area commander, and fifth, it will be necessary to get some facts
together in order to prepare this address.
Now, when I finish that telephone conversation, I put down that
receiver, and as far as I am concerned, that is the end of it, and I
carry on with the busy duties of a Secretary of the Army without
further thought until the time comes when, for actually leaving on the
trip or for the preparation of the remarks that I am going to make.
In the meanwhile, Mr. Lucas will have dispatched little memoranda
to appropriate members of the staff to begin to implement the five
points which I have just outlined to you. Having done that, he files
his notes away, and that is the end of it. But he is on the telephone
in the manner I have just described.
Mr. Jenkins. "Was this telephone conversation between you and
Senator McCarthy as of November 7 monitored? I am not asking
now for the report, I say was it monitored.
Secretary Stevens. Mr. Lucas was on the line.
Mr. Jenktns. I will ask you to state, from your recollection, now,
and not a«iy monitored record, the tenor of that conversation.
JMr. Welch. Mr. Chairman?
Senator Mundt. Have you a point of order, Mr. Welch ?
Mr. Welch. We are presented with a legal problem that I think
is susceptible to reasonably quick solution.
Mr. Jenkins. I am merely asking him to relate a conversation now
irrespective of it being monitored between him and Senator McCarthy.
I am not asking for the monitor's report now, Mr. Welch. I am ask-
ing him to tell what was said, whether it was monitored or whether it
was not.
Senator Mcndt. Are you satisfied, Mr. Welch? Is that satisfac-
tory ?
Mr. "Welch. I think we may still have to face the legal decision,
and I think it can be handled without difficulty. But we don't face it
at this moment.
Mr. Jenkins. Will you tell now what that conversation was, Mr.
Secretary ?
Secretary Ste\'ens. Well, Senator McCarthy called, and this was
the day after the luncheon in my office, and he asked me if everything
130 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
had gone all right, and I said yes, that it had, and I thanked him. He
went on then to discuss David Schine and said that he did not want
David Schine assigned back to this committee.
Mr. Jenkins. That is, to his committee ?
Secretary Stevens. That is right.
Well, as I had never had any intention of assigning David Schine
back to this committee once he was inducted into the Army, there
was no problem in my mind in quickly agreeing that he would not be
assigned back to the committee. Senator McCarthy gave some reasons
as to why he felt that way, which added up to raising a question in
my mind as to just how important Mr. Schine was to the committee.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, a point of order.
Senator Mundt. State your point of order.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that with
each of the members of the committee getting a certain time to cross-
examine before I have a chance to examine the Secretary, I think in
fairness the Secretary could be asked to give the reasons that I gave
him, namely that it would be improper to assign a man to the com-
mittee. He has left the inference now that I have asked David Schine
not to be assigned to the committee.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman ?
Senator McCarthy. May I finish my statement ?
He has left the impression
Mr. Jenkins. Senator, you will have the opportunity to cross-
examine and ask those very questions.
I take the position that Senator McCarthy is now making a state-
ment of facts that is improper at this time. I intend to cross-examine
the Secretary, probably with respect to the very things that the Senator
has mentioned, and then he will have his opportunity. I object to
those statements as being improper at this time.
Senator ]\IcCarthy. JSIay I suggest to the able counsel that he hold
his objection until I finish my sentence.
As I started to say
Senator ]\Iundt. Is this still a point of order, Senator McCarthy?
Senator McCarthy. Yes ; it is still a point of order.
The Secretary, I fear, has left the impression that I asked that
Schine not be assigned to my committee because of some incompetence
on the part of Schine. I ask counsel, and I assume counsel is going to
do that aiw way — I wish counsel would clear up the facts and make it
very clear that the only reason I asked him not to assign Schine to
the committee was because I told him it would be improperly inter-
preted in some quarters as a favor
Mr. Jenkins. Senator, I intend to do all of that on cross-examina-
tion.
I cannot, Mr. Chairman, in the nature of things, cover this entire
story on direct examination, and if I fail in my duty to do so, I again
remind Senator McCarthy that he has the opportunity to cross-ex-
amine at length, and I do not think that the inquisition, or the state-
ment, at this time
Senator Mundt. Counsel will proceed. I am sure he will develop
the full facts. If not, Senator McCarthy will have complete oppor-
tunity to ask the questions.
Senator McCarthy, ^Mr. Chairman, may I say the reason I raise
this point at this time is, it will probably be tomorrow or the next
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 131
day before I have a chance to examine the witness, and I think it
would be completely unfair
Senator IMundt. The counsel has assured the Senator he expects
to do that this morning.
Mr. Jexkins. And will in all probability be fully covered this
afternoon.
Senator McCarthy. O. K.
Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, could I suggest that I think an orderly
procedure would be to clear the legal hurdles and have the monitored
telephone conversation placed in evidence.
]\Ir. Jexkins. ]May I ask if you have now stated from your recol-
lection, regardless of any monitored proceeding, the full conversation
had with you by Senator McCarthy on November 7 ?
Secretary Stevens. No, sir.
Mr. Jenkixs. If not, proceed to do so.
Secretary Stevexs. And may I say, Mr. Chairman, that the one
thing I don't want to do is to create any impression that is unfair
to anybody.
Senator Mundt. I am sure if you will elucidate those reasons, we
can do that.
Secretary Stevexs. I want to give all of the facts, but when you
are searching your memory and trying to testify, if you overlook
some point, it is, I guess, a human frailty, and I will not do so inten-
tionally. I will put the facts out here on the table — good, bad, and
indifferent — as far as I know them.
Mr, Jenkins. Will you go ahead ?
Secretary Stevens. I had not finished my statement when I was
interrupted.
Mr. Jenkins. You have been asked to do so now.
Secretary Stevens. I was going to say that Senator McCarthy did
say that he thought this would be misinterpreted, the reassignment
of David Schine to this committee. He thought it would be mis-
interpreted and would be bad from that angle. If I cast any reflec-
tion in my recollection as I am trying to recall on David Schine in
what I said previously, I did not intend it in that manner. I intended
it merely in my efforts to get the facts before the committee. Now,
in that conversation Senator ]\IcCarthy says that one of the few things
that he had trouble with Mr. Cohn about was David Schine. He said
that "Roy thinks that Dave ought to be a general and operate from
a penthouse on the Waldorf Astoria," or words to that effect. Sen-
ator INIcCarthy then said that he thought a few weekends off for David
Schine might be arranged, or words to that effect. Perhaps for the
purpose of taking care of Dave's girl friends.
Now, I have searched my memory, Mr. Jenkins, and that is about
the conversation as I recall it.
Mr. Jenkins. That embraces, as you recall it, the conversation be-
tween you and Senator McCarthy on that day?
Secretary Stevens. Yes.
]\Ir. Jenkins. Did you say that that conversation was monitored?
Secretary Stevens. I said that Mr. Lucas was on the wire.
Mr. Jenkins. Do you have a record made by Mr. Lucas of that con-
versation? And I have not asked for it yet, Mr. Welch; I am asking
if he has a record made by Mr. Lucas of that conversation.
132 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Mr. Welch. Well, as you Imow, Mr. Jenkins, I do not wish to keep
tlie monitored telephone conversation out of this hearing, and I only
want the proper legal setup made so that it can go in as I view the
law, which I have discussed with you, and I think we are at that point.
As you know, Mr. Jenkins, a special subpena was served on Mr.
Stevens requiring him to bring, among other things, this monitored
conversation. In response to that subpena, which I wish placed in
the record at this point, he has brought this monitored conversation
to this room.
In a meeting of another committee, at which Senator Symington
was present, it was stated that there were such monitored conversa-
tions so that their existence is not actually a secret. It follows that
there are in this room, or is in this room, a transcription of this, of
the notes that Mr. Lucas made, and they have been produced under
a subpena which I wish to be made a part of the record. And if this
committee votes that Mr. Stevens must produce and disclose, he is
prepared to do so. But I ask that he have the protection both of the
subpena and of a committee vote, ordering him to produce.
Senator Mundt. Does the chair understand that you raise the point
of order that before the notes are produced, and introduced, j^ou would
like a vote by the committee ?
j\Ir. Welch. We are dealing with the Federal Communications Act,
which puts certain restrictions on monitored telephone calls, and I
think that no Army man may properly produce these unless a com-
mittee of the Senate orders him to do so.
Senator Mundt. Does the chair understand that you have raised
the point of order that before producing the notes, you would like to
have a vote by the committee?
Mr. Welch. That is precisely correct.
Mr. Jenkins. I now ask the committee to take a vote on whether
or not this monitored report, a transcription of it, together with the
original shorthand notes, shall be produced to the committee for its
consideration.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, I think that the counsel should
first develop whether or not the Secretary has a verbatim transcript
of the telephone conversation. I think otherwise it is impossible for
the committee to intelligently decide whether or not the monitored
conversations would be part of the record.
May I say I think it is one of the most indecent and dishonest things
I have heard of. A point of order.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman — —
Senator McCarthy. A point of order.
Mr. Jenkins. I ask the chairman to instruct the Senator that those
statements are improper at this time.
Senator McCarthy. A point of order.
Senator Mundt. A point of order without argument.
Senator McCarthy. I say it is completely indecent and improper
to take a recording of a conversation without notifying the person
on the other end that it is being taken. Let me finish, if you please.
I insist upon making this point of order, Mr. Chairman. May I do
it without interruption ?
Senator Mundt. What is your point of order?
Senator jNIcCarthy. The i^oint of order is this : That while I think
it is completely improper as I started to say, indecent, and illegal
SPECIAL ESrVESTIGATIOI^ 133
under the laws, to record a conversation without notifying the person
on the other end, I personally ^yould want the conversation in this
case made a part of the record, if it is a verbatim transcript.
Mr. Jenkins. I shall ask him that question.
Senator Mundt. The Chair is going to uphold your point of order,
that before we vote on it we should find out whether there is such a
transcript. That question will be asked.
Senator McCarthy. May I finish — and we are losing a lot of time
and I think I am entitled to this ; it is an important point. If, how-
ever, this is the recollection of some individual of what occurred
months ago, if it merely consists of notes that he made, and not a
verbatim transcript, then I think it should not be made a part of the
record.
If it is a verbatim transcript, I will want it a part of the record,
no matter how illegal the act in its inception was.
Mr. Jenkins. I am prepared to explore that subject now.
Senator Mundt. The Chair will uphold the point of order, and
the counsel will interrogate Mr. Stevens as to whether or not he has
a transcript to produce.
Mr. Welch. Could I say a word, Mr. Chairman? Mr. Jenkins
fully understands the somewhat difficult legal question here presented,
and with extreme courtesy he did not interview Mr. Lucas, who took
the notes, and he did not ask to see his notebook, and he is merely in-
formed that there is a transcription now in this room for which the
committee may call if it wishes.
I have not anything to say except the transcription is here, and
as I view it it can neither be produced nor testified about unless and
until this committee votes that you want it.
Senator JNIundt. The Chair has ruled that before asking the com-
mittee to vote, he wants to find out whether or not there is actually a
transcript of the conversation present. The only way I can find that
out is to have the counsel interrogate the Secretary on that point.
]\Ir. Jenkins. Mr. Stevens, do you have a transcription of that con-
versation?
Mr. Welch. Could I hear that question read ?
Senator Mundt. The reporter will read the question.
(Whereupon the question was read by the reporter as above re-
corded. )
Secretary Ste\^ns. Yes.
ISIr. Jenkins. By whom was it made ?
Secretary Stevens. By Mr. Lucas.
Mr. Jenkins. Where is Mr. Lucas ? Is he here available ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir ; he is in my office.
]\Ir. Jenkins. Have you read that transcription ?
Secretary Stevens. I have looked at it.
Mr. Jenkins. Have you read it ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. State whether or not that transcription was made
from memory or whether or not it was made from notes taken at the
time and simultaneously with this conversation ?
Secretary Stevens. It was made from shorthand notes taken at the
time of the conversation.
Mr. Jenkins. And you say you have read it ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
134 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Mr. Jenkins. Is not it an accurate, verbatim report of your con-
versation with Senator McCarthy ?
Secretary Stevens. I would say it was.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy.
Senator McCarthy. Again may I say I think if there is a verbatim
recording of this conversation, it should be put into the record, but I
think it should not be put into the record until Mr. Lucas is here under
oath and swears that it contains everything that was said, and is ex-
amined as to complete accuracy. If that is done, I frankly think it
should be put into the record. I do not think Mr. Stevens — and this
is no reflection upon you, Mr. Secretary
Senator Mundt. The Chairman will uphold Senator McCarthy's
point of order. We will have Mr. Lucas sworn and testify before
receiving the evidence.
Mr. Jenkins. I concede, in my opinion. Senator McCarthy is right
about it. It is now practically adjourning time. May I suggest that
the meeting now be adjourned and that Mr. Stevens stand aside until
2 : 30, and Mr. Lucas be put on at that time.
Senator Mundt. The committee will take a recess until 2 : 30. Mr.
Lucas will be the first witness.
(Whereupon, at 12:25 p. m., the hearing was recessed until 2:30
p. m., of the same day.)
APPENDIX
EXHIBITS
No. 1
Stevens-Adams Chronology
1. Mid-July 1953: MaJ. Gen. Miles Reber, then Chief of Army Legislative
Liaison, received a phone call stating that Senator McCarthy desired to see him.
He went to the Senator's oflJce and Senator McCarthy there informed General
Reber that he was very interested in securing a direct commission for Mr. G.
David Schine, a consultant to the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investi-
gations, on the basis of Mr. Schine's education, business experience, and prior
service with the Army Transport Service. Senator McCarthy said that speed was
desirable since Mr. Schine might be inducted into the Armed Forces under the
Selective Service Act. During the meeting Mr. Roy Cohn, chief counsel of the
subcommittee, came in the room and emphasized the necessity for rapid action.
2. July 15, 1953 : Mr. Schine called the Office of the Chief of Legislative Liaison
(OCLL), Department of the Army, on the telephone and asked whether he could
come to the Pentagon that afternoon and "hold up his hand." He was advised
that it would be necessary to submit an application for a commission. He came
to OCLL in the Pentagon where he was assisted in completing the necessary
application blanks. He was also taken to the Pentagon Dispensary for a physical
examination.
3. July 15-30, 1953 : Mr. Schine's application for a commission was considered
by the Chief of Transportation, the Provost Marshal General, and the Com-
manding General of First Army. All three determined that Mr. Schine was not
qualified for a direct commission and he was so notified by letter dated July 30,
1953, from the First Army and confirmed by General Reber. During the period
from the time of the initial request by Senator McCarthy concerning the com-
mission for Mr. Schine to the time of the final decision that Mr. Schine was not
qualified for a commission, there were inquiries from the committee staff to
OCLL as to the status of the application.
4. August 1, 1953: ]Mr. Cohn requested OCLL to explore the possibility of
obtaining a Reserve commission for Mr. Schine in either the Air Force or the
Navy. These explorations were undertaken with negative results. Mr. Cohn
was so advised during the month of August.
5. September 30, 1953: Mr. Cohn telephoned Secretary Stevens and stated
there were two mattei-s which he desired to discuss with the Secretary. An
appointment was made for October 2, 1953.
6. October 2, 1953 : Mr. Cohn and Mr. Francis Carr, executive director of the
Senate Permanent Subcommittee, conferred with Secretary Stevens for approxi-
mately 35 minutes. The purpose of the meeting was to discuss in some detail
plans for the Fort Monmouth investigations. During the course of such dis-
cussions Mr. Cohn asked the Secretary about an assignment in the New York
City area for Mr. Schine, when inducted. Mr. Cohn stated that it was desirable
to have Mr. Schine available for consultation to the staff of the committee to
complete certain work with which Mr. Schine was familiar and that the Army
must have several places in the New York City area where Mr. Schine could
perform Army work. The Secretary did not agree with this suggestion and
pointed out that Mr. Schine should follow the same procedures for assignment
as any other private in the Army.
7. October 14-17, 1953 : At some point during this period, Mr. Cohn requested
Secretary Stevens to assign Mr. Schine to temporary duty in New York after
his induction for the purpose of completing committee work. Secretary Stevens
suggested that 15 days of temporary duty might be arranged between induction
and training for the completion of committee work.
135
136 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
8. Mid-October 1953 : During the course of hearings in the courthouse in Foley
Square in New York in mid-October 1953, at one time Senator McCarthy, Mrs.
McCarthy, and Mr. John G. Adams, Department of the Army Counselor, were
together. Senator McCarthy at this time told Mr. Adams that Mr. Schine was
of no help to the committee but was interested in photographers and getting his
pictures in the paper, and that things had reached the point where Mr. Schine
was a pest. Senator McCarthy further said that he hoped nothing would occur
to stop the ordinary processes of the draft procedures in Schine's case. Mr.
Adams requested Senator McCarthy's permission to repeat the Senator's state-
ments to Secretary Stevens. Senator McCarthy stated that he hoped Mr. Adams
would promptly tell Secretary Stevens his views.
9. Mid-October 1953: On the next occasion when Secretary Stevens. Senator
McCarthy, and Mr. Adams were together, which was within a very few days,
Mr. Adams raised the subject of Mr. Schine. Senator McCarthy told Secretary
Stevens and Mr. Adams that Mr. Schine was a nuisance but that Senator Mc-
Carthy did not want Mr. Cohn to know of these views on Mr. Schine.
10. October IS-November 3, 1953 : During this 2-week period, Mr. Cohn and
Mr. Adams spoke in person or on the telephone almost every day concerning
an assignment for Private Schine to the New York City area. On these occasions,
Mr. Adams suggested to Mr. Cohn that the Army had an obligation to 300,000
other men being drafted every year and that Mr. Schine wasn't the only college
graduate to serve as a private. It was on these occasions that Mr. Adams first
stated that the national interest required that no preferential treatment be given
to Schine and explained to Mr. Cohn that he was 15 years older than Mr. Cohn
and could speak from a wealth of experience as a Senate employee and in the
Pentagon on this very subject. Mr. Cohn replied that if national interest was
what the Army wanted he'd give it a little and then proceeded to outline how he
would expose the Army in its worst light and show the country how shabbily it is
being run.
Mr. Adams attended executive sessions of the subcommittee in New York. Mr.
Cohn discussed Mr. Schine's assignment in the Army several times with Mr.
Adams.
11. November 3, 1953 : Mr. Schine was inducted into the Army and was placed
on 15 days' temporary duty in New York to complete committee work. The day
following, Senator McCarthy said to Mr. Adams that members of the press and
others might ask why Private Schine was still in New York. Senator McCarthy
requested Mr. Adams to have the temporary duty in New York canceled. At that
time, Mr. Cohn suggested to Mr. Adams that as long as it was the middle of the
week the temporary duty be continued to the end of the week and Private Schine
report the first of the following week. This was done.
12. November 3-6, 1953 : Sometime during this period, Mr. Cohn had a con-
versation with Mr. Adams in which Mr. Cohn stated that members of the com-
mittee staff would have to go Fort Dix to conclude certain committee work upon
which Private Schine had been engaged.
13. November 6, 1953 : At the invitation of the Secretary of the Army, a lunch-
eon, attended by the Secretary, Mr. Adams, Senator McCarthy, Mr. Francis
Carr, and ]\Ir. Cohn, was held in the Pentagon. The principal subject of dis-
cussion at the luncheon was the Fort Monmouth investigation. During the
course of the luncheon, however, Mr. Cohn asked when the Army would be
able to arrange for a New York City assignment for Private Schine. Senator
McCarthy also stated that he was interested in Private Schine's receiving a New
York City assignment and suggested that Schine might be sent to New York
with the assignment of studying and reporting to the Secretary on evidence of
pro-Communist leanings in West Point textbooks. Mr. Cohn also requested
that Private Schine be made available for committee work while he was under-
going basic training at Fort Dix. Mr. Stevens said that, if necessary to com-
plete pending committee work. Private Schine would be permitted to leave the
post on weekends after his training was concluded. Mr. Stevens further stated
that If the committee staff found it necessary to consult with Private Schine
during the week about committee matters, they might go down to Fort Dix and
meet with Private Schine on the post in the evening at the conclusion of Private
Schine's training after first clearing with General Ryan. Mr. Stevens also said
that if a matter of urgency in committee work developed. Private Schine could
be given permission to leave the post for that purpose in the evening after train-
ing. Normally, soldiers In their first 4 weeks of basic training at Fort Dix are
not permitted to leave the post in the evenings, nor are they given weekend
passes. This rule is a local one, and is subject to modification to permit new
SPECIAL mVESTIGATIOIT 137
arrivals to meet personal emergencies, family needs, or to close out commit-
ments. The statement of Secretary Stevens, therefore, authorized Private
Schiue to be given passes if needed for committee business on the first 4
weekends when he might otherwise have been restricted and to be available
to meet with the committee staff in evenings on post, if the committee needed
Private Schine for committee business. It was, in effect, a modification to
permit Private Schine to close out his professional commitments.
14. November 10, 1953 : Private Schine boarded a bus at 39 Whitehall, New
York, and was transported to the reception center at Fort Dix, N. J.
lo. November 11, 1953 : Mr. Francis Carr and Mr. Cohn visited General Ryan,
commander of Fort Dix, and requested to see Private Schine at the reception
station. Private Schine was made available.
16. November 12, 1953: Some member of the subcommittee staff telephoned
Fort Dix and requested that Private Schine be given a pass over the weekend.
The pass was issued.
17. November 17, 1953: Secretary Stevens and Mr. Adams lunched with
Senator McCarthy in New York. The Secretary, en route back to Washington,
gave Senator McCarthy and members of the committee staff a ride in his plane
to Maguire Air Force Base which adjoins Fort Dix, N. J. Private Schine was
given a pass that evening to see Senator McCarthy and members of the com-
mittee staff.
18. November IS, 1953: Mr. LaYenia of the committee staff telephoned Fort
Dix and requested that Private Schine be given a pass until his formal basic
training started on November 23. (During this period from November 10 to 23,
Private Schine was being processed and awaiting the beginning of the next cycle
of basic training which was to begin on the 23d.)
19. November 19, 1953 : Private Schine was given a pass commencing at IG : 15
hours Thursday, November 19, until 2400 hours Sunday, November 22. (As
indicated, this was before his cycle of basic training started.)
20. November 23, 1953 : Private Schine commenced 8 weeks' basic training
cycle with Company K, 42d Infantry Regiment.
21. November 25, 1953 : Private Schine was given a pass from the end of duty
hours on Wednesday until 2.300 hours on Thursday, November 26 (Thanksgiving
holidays, no training scheduled) .
22. November 28, 1953 : Private Schine was given a pass from the end of duty
hours on Saturday until 2400 hours Sunday, November 29 (weekend).
23. December 8, 1953 : General Ryan telephoned Mr. Adams from Fort Dix
and stated that the matter of handling Private Schine was becoming increasingly
difiicult since the soldier was leaving the post nearly every night. General Ryan
stated the Private Schine had been returning regularly to the post very late at
night. General Ryan then stated that unless the Secretary objected he intended
immediately to terminate Private Schine's passes on week nights. Mr. Adams
advised General Ryan that from that moment forward, insofar as the Secretary
was concerned. Private Schine was no longer available for committee business
during the evenings of weekdays, but that in view of the Secretary's statement
about weekends, Private Schine should continue to be available for committee
work on weekends after he had concluded his training. Mr. Adams stated that
General Ryan was authorized on behalf of the Secretary to advise all members
of the committee staff that Private Schine could not leave the post on evenings
thereafter.
24. December 8, 1953 : The committee began open hearings in Washington
with Aaron Coleman as principal witness.
25. December 9, 1953 : Just before the hearing opened in the morning Mr. Cohn
spoke to Mr. Adams concerning the Army's prospective assignment of Private
Schine, and Mr. Adams explained, as he had many times before, that Private
Schine was going to be handled the same as any other private soldier. Mr. Cohn
broke off this conversation in the middle, turning his back on Mr. Adams in the
Senate Caucus Room.
At about 12 : 30 p. m., at the conclusion of the morning hearing, Mr. Adams
followed Senator McCarthy to his ofSce and conferred with him concerning the
inquiries of Mr. Cohn about Private Schine.
As a result of Mr. Adams' request. Senator McCarthy told Mr. Adams that he
would wi'ite the Secretary of the Army a letter in which he would state that
the committee had no further interest in Private Schine and that he hoped that
Private Schine would be treated the same as other soldiers. Senator McCarthy
also said he would ask the committee staff to observe the same rule. This letter
138 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
under date of December 22, 1953, was written by Senator McCarthy and received
by the Secretary of the Army.
Mr. Adams returned to the Pentagon and in the middle of the afternoon
received a telephone call from Mr. Cohn. Mr. Colm stated to Mr. Adams that
he would teach Mr. Adams what it meant to go over his head.
26. December 10, 1953 : The Washington hearings for that week concluded at ,
noon on Thursday. At Senator McCarthy's request Secretary Stevens and Mr.
Adams lunched with Senator McCarthy and Mr. Francis Carr at the Carroll
Arms. According to Mr. Carr, Mr. Cohn was too upset to attend the lunch '
because of the Private Schine situation and the Army's unwillingness to settle,
on Private Schine's future assignment, and had departed for New York imme- '
diately after the conclusion of the morning hearings. At this luncheon there
were extensive discussions led by Senator McCarthy as to the possibilities of an
immediate New York assignment for Private Schine. The Secretary stated that
Private Schine must complete his basic 16 weeks' training before his future
assignment could even be discussed. During the luncheon Senator McCarthy
suggested several times the possibility of a New York area assignment for Private
Schine at the conclusion of 8 weeks at Fort Dix, pointing out that he knew of
instances where trainees received assignments at the end of 8 weeks instead of
16 weeks.
27. December 11, 1953 : On this day Private Schine was informed that there-
after training would be expanded to include Saturday morning duty. This was
the first Friday following General Eyan's decision to prohibit Private Schine's
leaving the post on evenings during the week. During the afternoon ]\Ir. Adams
had extensive long-distance conversations with Mr. Cohn from New York, all of
them initiated by Mr. Cohn, and one of which lasted nearly an hour. During
these conversations Mr. Cohn, using extremely vituperative language, told Mr,
Adams that the Army had again "double crossed" Mr. Cohn, Private Schine,
and Senator McCarthy.
The first double cross, according to Mr. Cohn, was when the Army had not
given a commission to Schine after promising one to him ; the second double
cross, according to Mr. Cohn, was that the Army had not assigned Private
Schine immediately to New York ; and another was that the Army canceled
Private Schine's availability during week nights. The requirement that Private
Schine perform duties on Saturday mornings was a new double cross.
28. December 12-13, 1953 : Private Schine was given a pass for the weekend.
29. December 17, 1953 : On the morning of December 17, Senator McCarthy
spoke to Mr. Adams at 10 : 30 a. m. at the entrance to the United States Court-
house in New York. He stated to Mr. Adams that he had attempted on the
previous evening to telephone him. He stated that he had learned of the extent
of his staff's interference with the Army with reference to Schine, and that
he wished to advise Adams thereafter to see that nothing was done on the com-
mittee's behalf with reference to Schine. After the hearings, Senator McCarthy,
Mr. Cohn, Mr. Francis Carr, and Mr. Adams were present together. Mr. Adams,
in order to have Senator McCarthy state his views in front of Messrs. Carr and
Cohn, suggested discussing the Private Schine situation. The discussion be-
came heated and Mr. Cohn restated all the arguments which he had used before
and referred to a so-called commitment that Private Schine be assigned to the
New York City area immediately upon finishing basic training. Mr. Cohn was
vituperative in his language. During this discussion, Senator McCarthy re-
mained silent.
The party rode uptown in Mr. Cohn's car and Mr. Cohn continued his state-
ments. Twice during the ride uptown and as Mr. Adams was getting out of the
car. Senator McCarthy asked Mr. Adams to ask Secretary Stevens if the Secre-
tary could find a way to assign Private Schine to New York. Senator McCarthy
again suggested the possibility that the Secretary should put Private Schine on
duty at Headquarters, First Army, with an assignment to examine the textbooks
at West Point and to report to the Secretary as to whether they contained
anything of a subversive nature.
30. December 19-20, 1953 : Private Schine was given a pass over the weekend.
31. December 24-27, 1953: Private Schine was given a pass (Christmas holi-
days).
32. Mid-December 1953: In mid;-December, Mr. Adams discussed with the
Ofiice of the Adjutant General (TAG) of the Army what assignment was
scheduled for Private Schine. Mr. Adams pointed out that neither the Secre-
tary nor he would interfere with it, but that Mr. Adams wished to know what
the qualification testing of Private Schine had developed. TAG advised that
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 139
Private Schine had been tested at Fort Dix, tliat lie had been found physically
disqualified for service in the Infantry because of a defect in his back, and that
the primary Military Occupational Specialty (MOS) which had been developed
was that of an Assistant Criminal Investigator. TAG stated further that quite
probably Schine would be transferred at the conclusion of his 8 weeks' basic
training to Fort Dix to the Provost Marshal General School at Camp Gordon, Ga.,
for training in the Criminal Investigators School. TAG advised that the length
of the course was 8 weeks.
Following these discussions with TAG, Mr. Adams went to Secretary Stevens
and discussed the results of the qualification testing with him. Mr. Adams
stated that an assignment to Camp Gordon for Private Schine would be the
normal course of action that would follow from the qualification testing.
On December 31 Mr. Adams called Mr. Cohn on the telephone and told him
about the probable assignruent for Private Schine. Mr. Adams explained that
according to his understanding, Private Schine would have 8 weeks at Camp
Gordon Provost Marshal School after which Private Schine would be eligible
for reassignment. Mr. Cohn repeatedly asked if the reassignment would be to
New York. Mr. Adams told him that he did not know and that he was not
able to discuss the future assignment of Private Schine.
r.3. December 31, 1953-January 3, 1954 : Private Schine was given a pass (New
Tear's holidays).
34. January 9, 1954: Mr. Adams was at Amherst, Mass., filling a speaking
engagement at Amherst College. In the middle of the afternoon Mr. Adams
received a long-distance call from Mr. Francis Carr who said he had been trying
to reach him since the previous evening. Mr. Carr stated that Mr. Cohn had been
trying to reach Mr. Adams from New York and that the purpose of Mr. Cohn's
call was to have Mr. Adams intervene with the Commanding General at Fort
Dix because Private Schine was scheduled for KP duty on the following day, a
Sunday.
Mr. Adams told Mr. Carr that it was absolutely impossible for him to do
anything from Amherst. Shortly thereafter, Mr. Adams received a call from Mr.
Cohn but declined to accept same.
35. January 9-10, 19.")4: Private Schine was allowed to go on pass (weekend
leave) until Sunday afternoon when he was required to return to Fort Dix.
36. January 11, 1954 : On or about this date, Mr. Cohn called Mr. Adams and
asked extensive questions with reference to Camp Gordon, Ga., and the exact
number of days Private Schine would be required to serve there. Mr. Cohn
also desired to know if it were necessary for Private Schine to live on the post ;
if Private Schine could have his car on post; and the name of the person at
Camp Gordon who should serve as the contact between Mr. Cohn and Camp
Gordon for the purpose of relieving Private Schine from duty when neces-
sary. Mr. Cohn stated that the committee would need Private Schine regularly
for committee duty. Mr. Adams stated that Private Schine would be treated the
same as any other private.
Afer this conversation with Mr. Cohn, Mr. Adams telephoned the Provost
Marshal General, General Maglin, to ascertain exactly what type of school
was being operated at Camp Gordon and exactly what was in store for Private
Schine. General Maglin told Mr. Adams that his previous information that
Private Schine needed to stay only 8 weeks at Camp Gordon was erroneous
because the first 8 weeks at Camp Gordon were merely the second 8 weeks of
Private Schine's required 16 weeks of basic training. General Maglin then
stated that it would be necessary for Private Schine to complete this 8 weeks
before Private Schine could qualify for training at the Criminal Investigators
School. He further explained that if Private Schine qualified for duty in
the CID school, it would be necessary for him to remain at that school another
10 weeks. This total would amount to nearly 5 months at Camp Gordon.
Mr. Adams immediately telephoned Mr. Cohn and advised him of this de-
velopment. During the midst of the conversation Mr. Cohn hung up on the
telephone after telling Mr. Adams he would not stand for any more Army double
crosses.
37. January 13-14, 1954: A day or so after the conversation with Mr. Cohn
Mr. Adams went to the Capitol and called on Mr. Cohn and Mr. Carr in Mr.
Cohn's otfice in the Senate Investigations Subcommittee. General discussion was
had concerning the Private Schine situation and the progress of the McCarthy
committee investigation at Fort Monmouth. Knowing that 90 percent of all
inductees get overseas duty and that there were 9 chances out of 10 that Private
Schine would be facing overseas duty when he concluded his tour at Camp Gor-
140 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
don, Mr. Adams informed Mr. Coliu of tliis siutation. Mr. Colin upon hearing
this said this would "wreck the Army" and cause Mr. Stevens to be "through
as Secretary of the Army."
The same afternoon General Maglin, the Provost Marshal General, and General
Howard, who had just returned from the Far East and was scheduled to be the
Commanding General at Camp Gordon, conferred with Mr. Adams in his oflttce in
the Pentagon for about 1 hour.
General Maglin discussed with Mr. Adams in detail the method by which a
soldier ordinarily is handled at Camp Gordon, and pointed out to him that it was
absolutely imperative that Private Schiue complete his second 8 weeks of basic
training before he would be eligible for consideration for the CID school.
Mr. Adams stated that Private Schine had been a source of concern to General
Ryan at ort Dix. Mr. Adams told General Howard that regardless of whether he
received telephone calls from Mr. Colin or anybody else that General Howard was
to disregard them and that if General Howard were to get any instructions at all
with reference to special treatment for Private* Schiue they would come either
from Mr. Adams or from the Secretary of the Army. Mr, Adams stated to Gen-
eral Howard that it was the Secretary's desire that Private Schine be given ex-
actly the same treatment at Camp Gordon as was given to any other soldier.
38. January 13-14, 1954: After his interview with Generals Magliu and
Howard, Mr. Adams went to see Secretary Stevens. Mr. Adams first reported to
the Secretary his conversations with Mr. Cohn. Mr. Adams then stated he be-
lieved it would be advisable for the Secretary to talk directly to Senator
McCarthy about the situation. The Secretary stated that, since he was going to
the Orient in 2 or 3 days, to be gone nearly a month, he felt that it would be
well for him to go and see Senator McCarthy that very day to discuss general
Army matters of interest to the committee.
Secretary Stevens telephoned Senator McCarthy and the Senator arranged for
a conference at the Carroll Arms Hotel at 5 that same afternoon. The Secretary
asked Major General Young, ACS G-1 (Personnel), to check all conflicting stories
concerning the type and length of assignment which was facing Private Schine at
Camp Gordon. General Young reported back to Secretary Stevens that the in-
formation supplied by General Maglin to Mr. Adams was correct, namely, that
Private Schine must complete 8 more weeks of basic training in military police
work and then would be eligible, if considered qualified, for assignment to the
Criminal Investigators School for a course which would take another 10 or 11
weeks.
Secretary Stevens met with Senator McCarthy at the Carroll Arms Hotel as
agreed. After approximately one-half hour they were joined by Al McCarthy,
who was introduced by the Senator. Al McCarthy remained through the rest of
the visit which lasted approximately 2 hours.
Secretary Stevens explained to Senator McCarthy the type of duty which was
scheduled for Private Schine at Camp Gordon and the length of time he would be
there. On about 4 or 5 occasions, Senator McCarthy brought up the question of
an assignment for Private Schiue to the New York City area at the conclusion
of his tour at Camp Gordon. Secretary Stevens did not make any commitment
with reference to Private Schine's assignment after he had completed his train-
ing at Camp Gordon, but did explaiu the length of time Schiue was required to
.spend at Camp Gordon.
39. January 16, 1954 : Private Schine completed 8 weeks of basic training at
Fort Dix and departed for 2 weeks' leave. This is the normal leave given to
every trainee upon completion of the first cycle of 8 weeks' basic training.
40. January 18, 1954 : At about 4 p. m. on the afternoon of ^Monday, the day
following the departure of Secretary Stevens for Korea, Mr. Francis Carr tele-
phoned Mr. Adams and discussed various subjects with him. During the course
of the conversation the question of Private Schine came up. Mr. Adams inquired
whether Senator McCarthy had told Mr. Carr over the weekend of his conversa-
tion with Secretary Stevens the previous Thursday. Mr. Carr stated he had
received no information concerning this meeting. Mr. Adams told Mr. Carr
in detail the length of time that Private Schine would be required to spend at
Camp Gordon. Mr. Carr stated that he had an incoming call from Mr. Cohn,
who was in Florida on vacation, and would inform Mr. Cohn of these develop-
ments at once.
About 10 minutes after the conclusion of the Carr telephone call, Mr. Adams*
received a long-distance call from IMr. Cohn from P>oca Katcm, Fin. Mr. Cohn
reported he had just heard about Mr. Adams' talk with Mr. Carr. He requested
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 141
verification and wlien Mr. Adams repeated wliat he had told Mr. Carr, Mr. Cohn
ended the conversation.
41. January 19, 1954 : On Tuesday morning, Mr. Carr telephoned Mr. Adams
and advised that the committee desired to interrogate a number of members of the
Army's Loyalty-Security Appeals Board. Mr. Adams reminded him of prior
understandings that such members would not be called. Mr. Carr made no
direct reply and stated that Mr. Cohn had terminated his vacation in Florida
and returned.
. The individuals named were asked to appear at 2 p. m. Mr. Adams appeared
himself, accompanied, by Deputy Department Counselor Berry, before the one-
man subcommittee headed by Senator McCarthy. Also present were Mr. Cohn,
IVIr. Carr, and the official committee reporter, Mr. Alderson of the Alderson
Reporting Co. The meeting la.sted about 45 minutes, during which time Senator
McCarthy stated that it was necessary that the committee interrogate the mem-
bers of the Board. Senator McCarthy went on the record only at one time to
state that he was not requesting these people to come up for the purpose of inter-
rogating them about their participation in the Loyalty-Security program alone,
but that he wished to interrogate them about various widespread allegations
he had received concerning fraud and corruption and personal misconduct in
their official actions.
42. January 22, 1954 : On Friday evening, at Senator McCarthy's request, Mr.
Adams went to the Senator's apartment. The visit lasted from about 8 : 30 p. m.
until about 11 : 15 p. m. Mrs. McCarthy was present in addition to Senator
McCarthy and Mr. Adams.
The principal topics discussed were :
(1) Senator McCarthy's request that members of the Army Loyalty-Security
Appeals Board be made available for interrogation by the committee; and (2)
the possibility of an immediate assignment to New York City for Private G.
David Schine.
On many occasions during the evening, Senator McCarthy said he did not
see why it would not be possible for the Army to give Private Schine some
assignment in New York and to forget about the whole matter ; on at least
three occasions he attempted to secure such a commitment from Mr. Adams.
Senator McCarthy pointed out that the Army was walking into a long-range
fight with Mr. Cohn and that even if Mr. Cohn resigned or was fired from the
committee staff, he would carry on his campaign against the Army thereafter
from outside Washington. Senator McCarthy suggested that Mr. Cohn through
the medium of connections with various newspaper elements would being getting
published articles alleging favoritism on the part of the Army in numerous
other cases. Mr. Adams stated to Senator McCarthy that he knew of no such
favoritism and added that the Army was accustomed to being attacked
and criticized for doing what it thought right.
On one or two occasions during the evening Senator McCarthy referred to
what he called the "original agreement" with respect to Private Schine. Mr.
Adams replied that he knew nothing about an original agreement.
On one occasion during the evening reference was made to the New York
meeting of December 17, 19.53 (see entry of December 17, supra). Senator
McCarthy stated that he would not have blamed Mr. Adams that day, in view of
the abuse from Mr. Cohn, if Mr. Adams had walked out and refused ever to speak
to Mr. Cohn again.
Senator McCarthy also referred to his request to the Army to produce Loyalty
Appeals Board members for interrogation. The Senator stated that in his opinion
it was mandatory to call these individuals and said that he would be willing
to have Mr. Adams, as Counselor of the Army, accompany the witnesses to
protect the Army's position and the Army's loyalty program. He assured Mr.
Adams that if the Senator interrogated them, he would not interrogate them with
reference to anything concerning the loyalty security program itself, which the
witnesses under existing Executive orders would be prohibited from discussing.
Mr. Adams suggested they defer the matter until Secretary Stevens returned
from the Orient.
At his departure, Mr. Adams repeated to Senator McCarthy that the Army's
policy with reference to Private Schine was unchanged from what it had been
nil along; namely, that Private Schine would be handled according to the
siaudard workings of the system and there would be no interference and no
special assigment.
142 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
43. February 1954 : On either February 4 or 5, Mr. Adams discussed with Mr.
Carr on the telephone the Army's relationship with Senator McCarthy and the
committee staff. Mr, Carr stated that Senator McCarthy was angry over the
circumstances of the relase from active duty of Major Peress and the situation
had reached the point where the Senator was no longer willing to discuss mat-
ter either with the Secretary of with Mr. Adams.
44. February IG, 1954 : Mr. Carr telephoned Mr. Adams and requested the Army
to produce as witnesses before an open hearing of the committee in New York
City on Thursday morning. February 18, the Commanding General of Camp
Kilmer, the G-2 at Camp Kilmer, and the Acting G-2 of First Army.
Mr. Adams voiced the Army's concern over this development and compared
it to the Fort Monmouth situation where the committee had called in general
officers of the Signal Corps and had caused public uncertainty with respect to the
Army security procedures.
Mr. Carr stated that if the Army would be reasonable, probably the committee
would be reasonable. Mr. Adam inquired how Mr. Carr thought that the Amy
should be "reasonable" and Mr. Carr answered rather facetiously, tliat, if the
Army would only do all that had been requested of it, the Army's problems
would be at an end.
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