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Full text of "Special Senate investigation on charges and countercharges involving: Secretary of the Army Robert T. Stevens, John G. Adams, H. Struve Hensel and Senator Joe McCarthy, Roy M. Cohn, and Francis P. Carr. Hearings before the Special Subcommittee on Investigations of the Committee on Government Operations, United States Senate, Eighty-third Congress, second session, pursuant to S. Res. 189 .."

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SPECIAL SENATE INVESTIGATION ON CHARGES 
AND COUNTERCHARGES INVOLVING: SECRE- 
TARY OF THE ARMY ROBERT T. STEVENS, JOHN 
G. ADAMS, H. STRUVE HENSEL AND SENATOR 

JOE McCarthy, roy m. cohn, and 

FRANCIS p. CARR 



HEARING 

BEFORE THE 

SPECIAL SUBCOMMITTEE ON 
INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON 

GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS 
UNITED STATES SENATE 

EIGHTY-THIRD CONGEESS 

SECOND SESSION 
PURSUANT TO 

S. Res. 189 



PART 7 



APRIL 27, 1954 



Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Operations 




UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
46020° WASHINGTON : 1954 



Boston Public Library 
Superintendent of Documents 

JUL 1 5 1954 



COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS 

JOSEPH R. MCCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chainnaii 

KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas 

MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Maine HUBERT H. HUMrHREY, Jlinnesota 

HEXKY C. DWOKSHAK, Idaho HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington 

EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts 
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Marvland STUART SYMINGTON. Missouri 

CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan ALTON A. LENNON, North Carolina 

RiCHAKD J. 0'Mei>ia, General Counsel 
Walter L. Reynolds, Cliief Clerk 



Special Subcommittee on Ix^^i:sTIGATIONS 

KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota, Chau-man 

EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas 
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan HENRY M. JACKSON, Washingt. u 

HENRY C. DWOKSHAK, Idaho STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri 

Rat H. Jenkins, Chief Counsel 

THOMAS R. Prkwitt, Assintaut Counsel 

ROBERT A. CoLLiEK, Assistant Counsel 

SOLis HoHwiTZ, Assistant Counsel 

Charles A. Maxer, Secretary 

II 



I 



CONTENTS 

Page 

Index ' I 

Testimony of — 

Cohu, Roy M., chief counsel, Senate Permanent Subcommittee on In- 
vestigations - 275 

Jenkins, Ray H., chief counsel, Special Subcommittee on Investiga- 
tions 300 

Stevens, Hon. Robert T., Secretary, Department of the Army 255 

EXHIBITS 

Intro- 
duced Ai)pears 
OTi page on page 

2. Photograph 256 C) 

* May be found in the files of the subcommittee, 

III 



SPECIAL SENATE INVESTIGATION ON CHAEGES AND 
COUNTERCHARGES INVOLVING: SECRETARY OF THE 
ARMY ROBERT T. STEVENS, JOHN G. ADAMS, H. STRUVE 
HENSEL AND SENATOR JOE MCCARTHY, ROY M. COHN, 
AND FRANCIS P. CARR 



TUESDAY, APRIL 27, 1954 

Unii-ed States Senate, 
Special Subcommittee on Investigations of the 

commiitee on government operations, 

Washington, D, G. 

The subcommittee met at 10 : 30 a. m., pursuant to recess, in the 
caucus room of the Senate Office Building, Senator Karl E. Mundt 
(chairman) presiding. 

Present : Senator Karl E. Mimdt, Republican, South Dakota ; 
Senator Everett McKinley Dirksen, Republican, Illinois; Sena- 
tor Charles E. Potter, Republican, Michigan; Senator Henry C. 
Dworshak, Republican, Idaho ; Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, 
Arkansas; Senator Henry M. Jackson, Democrat, Washington; Sena- 
tor Stuart Symington, Democrat, Missouri. 

Also present : Ray H. Jenkins, Chief Counsel to the Subcommittee ; 
Thomas R. Prewitt, Assistant Counsel ; Ruth Y. Watt, Chief Clerk. 

Also present : Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, a United States Sena- 
tor from the State of Wisconsin; Roy M. Cohn, chief counsel to the 
subcommittee; Francis P. Carr, executive director of the subcommit- 
tee ; Hon. Robert T. Stevens, Secretary of the Army ; John G. Adams, 
Counselor to the Army; H. Struve Hensel, Assistant Secretary of 
Defense; Joseph N. Welch, special counsel for the Army; James D. 
St. Clair, special counsel for the Army ; Frederick P. Bryan, counsel 
to H. Struve Hensel, Assistant Secretary of Defense. 

Senator Mundt. The committee will please come to order. 

We left off yesterday afternoon with Senator Jackson about to 
interrogate the witness, and the understanding was-we were to resume 
at the point at which we left off. 

TESTIMONY OF HON. EOBERT T. STEVENS, SECKETARY OF THE 

ARMY — Resumed 

Senator Mundt. The Chair recognizes Senator Jackson. 

Mr. AYelch. Mr. Chairman, I don't know what it is, but it is a point 
of something. 

Senator Mundt. If it is a point of order, you may state it. 

Mr. Welch. My point of order is that Mr. Jenkins yesterday was 
imposed upon, and so was the Secretary of the Army, by having a 

255 



256 SPECIAL na^ESTIGATION 

doctored or altered photograph produced in this court room as if it , 
were honest. 

Senator Mundt. This is a committee room. 

Mr. AVelcii. And produced as if it were honest. I have the photo- 
graph that was offered yesterday in evidence, and in respect to which 
Mr. Stevens was not only examined but cross-examined. 

I show you now a photograph in respect of which I charge that 
what was offered in evidence yesterday was an altered, shamefully 
cut-down picture, so that somebody could say to Stevens, "Were you 
i,ot photographed alone with David Schine," when the truth is he 
was photographed in a group. 

Mr. Jenkins, I would like to say with all of my power, sir, I know 
you would never participate in a trick like this, but I suggest to you 
that you were imposed upon. I would like now to offer the picture 
that I have in my right hand as the original undoctored, unaltered 
piece of evidence. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair would certainly feel that your point 
of order was appropriate, and the original undoctored and unaltered 
picture will be entered as (evidence. 

(The photograph referred to above was marked as "Exhibit No. 2" 
and will be found in the files of the subconnnittee.) 

Mr. Jexkixs. Mr. Chairman, may I say this: That the original 
photograph which was presented to the Secretary yesterday on cross- 
examination is the identical photograph that was furnished me by one 
of the parties in interest in this case, and I might say an adverse party 
of interest to Mr. Stevens, as being the genuine, authentic photograph, 
with no intimation or insinuation that it had been cut down or that 
any other person photographed had been taken out of it. I presented 
it in good faith, as authentic evidence. 

I just wanted my position clear. 

Senator IVIcClellax. Mr. Chairman, I don't want to be unduly 
technical, but this last picture has not properly been adduced in 
evidence. There has been no one testifying and the counsel for the 
Army has made a statement that it is authentic and genuine, but there 
is no evidence that it is the original and it is genuine. 

It may appear so, but I think if we want to carry these proceedings 
as we are undertaking to, properly, evidence should be introduced 
before the picture is made a part of the record. 

Mr. Jenkins. It is certainly a matter that may be brought out by 
Mr. Welch on cross-examination. I agree with Senator McClellan 
entirely. 

Mr. AYelch. I think perhaps members 

Senator McCarthy. I agree with Senator McClellan, and I think 
we should have the third man identified, and we should have Mr. 
Welch sworn and have him tell how the picture has been doctored, if 
it has been doctored. I am curious to know how. I think the fact 
that there is a third man in here, if this is an accurate picture — and I 
assume it is — the third man should be identified. 

Again, Mr. Chairman, I suggest that Mr. Welch, if he is going 
to make charges such as he has, should be put under oath and tell 
how this was doctored, and who doctored it. 

Mr. Jenkins. Again I say, Mr. Chairman, those are matters that 
Senator McCarthy may likewise bring out on cross-examination. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATIOlSr 25^ 

Senator Mundt. Very well. The point of order certainly has been 
sustained as a point, and, Mr. Welch, your picture is now before us, 
along with the one which you alle^je is doctored. In cross-examina- 
tion and in sworn testimony, we should be able to determine the correct 
situation concerning the picture. 

]\Iay we proceed, then? Do you wish to be heard further on the 
point of order? 

Mr. Welch. No. I think the official photographer — — 
Senator Symington. Let the counsel answer the question. 
Mr. Welch. The official photographer at the McGuire Air Force 
Base who took the picture that I just produced has been sent for, or 
is now being sent for, and he will testify to the facts that I have called 
to the attention of this committee. 

Senator Mundt. That will take care of the matter being introduced 
in sworn testimony, and so we will defer it until such time as the 
committee calls the photographer or someone who can testify under 
oath. 

Mr. Wei^h. One more word, Mr. Chairman 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman 

Mr. Welch. Of course, immense speed was required to prove or 
get the evidence that we now have in this court room, and the picture 
that I produced is scarcely dry, and it was not in my power as a 
lawyer to get all of the proof ready to olfer this morning, as I would 
have liked to do. 

Senator Mundt. I am sure, ]\Ir. Welch, that the committee will be 
in session for at least the rest of the Aveek, and we will have an oppor- 
tunity to take care of that. 

Senator IMcCarthy. Mr. Chairman — a point of order. Mr. Chair- 
man. JNIay I have that picture ? 

Mr. Chairman, Mr. Welch has made the statement under the guise 

of being a point of order that this picture was doctored, and I look at 

it now and I don't have the other picture before me. May I have it ? 

Mr. Welch. This is the doctored picture. 

Senator McCarthy. I think, Mr. Chairman, when counsel for Mr. 

Adams and Mr. Stevens and Mr. Hensel 

Senator Mundt. May the Chair request the photographers to com- 
ply with the rules. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, couldn't we have an under- 
standing here that when I start to make a point of order that I may 
finish without interruption. 

Senator Mundt. Make a point of order and then speak to it. 
Senator McCarthy. The point of order is this: That Mr. Welch 
under the guise of making a point of order, has testified that a picture 
is doctored. I noAv have before me, and I may say this : Yesterday 
was the first time I saw either of these pictures, the picture that was 
introduced yesterday and the one Mr. Welch puts in today, and he 
makes the completely false statement that this is a group picture, 
and it is not. 

Senator Mundt. Counsel advises the Chair, may I say. 
Senator McCarthy. May I finish my point of order ? 
Senator Mundt. Counsel advises the Chair that the Senator is en- 
gaging in a statement or cross-examination rather than a point of 
order. 



258 SPECIAL rN\'ESTIGATION 

Senator McCarthy. I am getting ratlier sick of being interrupted in 
the middle of a sentence. 

Senator Stmingtox. I -would like to say if this is not a point of 
order, it is out of order. Tlie counsel says it is not a point of order and 
it is not a point of order, if the counsel says it is not a point of order. 

Senator McCarthy. Oh, be quiet. 

Senator Symingtox. I haven't the slightest intention of being quiet. 
Counsel is running this committee and you are not running it. 

Senator McCarthy. ]\Ir. Chairman, do I have the floor? 

Senator Mundt. The Chair has the floor, and nobody is endeavoring 
to determine whether or not Senator McCarthy is speaking to a point 
of order. 

Will you state your point of order and then speak to it? 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that Avhen I start 
to say something, I not be interrupted in the middle of a sentence, and 
that -Mr. Symington and no one else have the right to interrupt unless 
he addresses the Chair, and unless the Chair recognizes him. I am 
getting awfully sick of sitting down here at the end of the table and 
having Avhoever wants to interrupt in the middle of a sentence. 

XoAv, Mr. Welch made a statement and I raised a point of order 
that it was not a proper point of order that he raised, and that he said 
this picture was doctored, and may I suggest to the Chair as a point 
of order in fairness to Mr. Jenkins, or whoever produced the picture, 
that ]?.Ir. Welch point out wherein the picture was doctored. 

I can see no doctoring, except that a Colonel Bradle}^, who will be 
a witness here, his picture was not included. "\Mien Mr. Welch under 
the guise of a point of order said this was a group picture, I suggest 
that the Chair make the record clear that Mr. AVelch was not speak- 
ing the truth, and that the only change 

Mr. Jexkins. I am sorry to interrupt the Senator from Wisconsin. 
I agree with the Senator from Wisconsin that Mr. Welch did not make 
a point of order, and I further make the statement that the Senator 
from Wisconsin is not making a point of order; both of those gentle- 
men were making positive statements of facts which properly come 
under the head of proof and should be properly made by those gentle- 
men or their witnesses under oath, and I think that that should be 
made perfectly clear to both xdr. AVelch and Senator ^McCarthy, and 
that we should now proceed with the testimony of ^Ir. Stevens. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman 

Senator Mundt. The Chair has the floor, I am sorry. And the 
Chair has already ruled that the testimony on the photograph should 
be given to us under oath, and Mr. AVelch has been advised of that, and 
you haA'e been advised of that, and all parties will have an oppor- 
tunity to bring in witnesses and to testify under oath on the whole 
allegations about the photograph, the original, whether it was doc- 
tored or not. 

So that there is no point of order involved, and counsel has pointed 
out both Mr. AA'elclrs statement and the statement of Senator Mc- 
Carthy are a bit out of order, but the situation is a bit unusual, and 
consequently we have simply ruled that all testimony on the picture 
will be given under oath. 

Senator McCarthy. ]\lr. Chairman 

Senator Mundt. Do you have a point of order? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 259 

Senator McCarthy. Call it a point of order or call it what you may, 
when counsel for JNIr. Stevens, and Mr. Hensel, and Mr. Adams makes 
a statement and he is allowed to do it without interruption, and if 
that statement is false, do I have a right to correct it, or do we find 
halfway through my statement that Mr. Welch should not have made 
his statement and therefore I cannot point out that he was lying? 

I think that is an important question. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair has made the statement that neither 
statement is under oath, and each of you will have an opportunity to 
testify under oath on the matter in hand. 

Senator McCarthy. Just one more question, ^Mr. Chairman.^ 

Would not it be proper for the chairman at this time to point out 
for the record the difference between the two pictures submitted? 

Senator Mundt. No, that is something that will be done under oath 
by the parties in interest. It is not a function of the Chair to deter- 
mine which picture is correct. 

Senator Jackson. A point of order, Mr. Chairman. Do I under- 
stand that there will be witnesses called to testify under oath to 
identfy the photographic circumstances with reference to both pic- 
tures, the one introduced yesterday and the one introduced today? 

Senator IMundt. There are witnesses available, I believe. 

Senator Jackson. I believe that is an appropriate point of order. 

Senator Mundt. They will be called and they will be subject to 
cross-examination. 

Senator Symington. I would like to make a point of order, myself. 
The reason that I protested the continuation of that talk was because 
the counsel had stated twice, and I had heard it, that what was being 
said was not a point of order, and I believe that if we are going to 
keep these hearings at the proper level, of the dignity of the Senate, 
we have to follow the rulings of the counsel. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair has followed the rules of the counsel. 
The Chair in his desire to be equitable, having heard Mr. Welch on 
what was construed to be a point of order, felt it was only fair to 
give Senator McCarthy the same right to comment. For that reason, 
he gave him a little more latitude than he would otherwise. 

Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman, I again say the reason I raised 
the point was because I heard the counsel say twice that in his opinion 
it was not a point of order. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Jackson has the floor. 

Senator Jackson. Secretary Stevens, could you tell the committee 
when the Army started the investigation of personnel at Fort 
Monmouth? 

Secretary Ste\t:ns. Of course. Senator Jackson, that is a continuing 
process. It goes on year after year. As I indicated yesterday, we 
have been collaborating with the FBI in regard to Fort Monmouth 
for a considerable period of time, and I will submit some information 
on that particular point which I do not yet have ready. 

Senator Jackson. Did you know that the FBI was investigating 
it in 1953? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Senator, Jackson. I mean, did the Army know ? I do not mean 
did you know personally, but I mean aj^propriate officials within the 
Department of the Army, 

46620°--54— pt. 7 2 



260 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Secretary Stevexs. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jacksox. Was that early in 195o or the middle of 1953? 

Secretary Stevexs. I wonld say it was fairly early in 1953. 

Senator Jacksox. At the time you learned of the Senate committee 
investigations of Monmouth and the proposed investigation, can you 
tell the committee whether the Army was then investigating personnel 
at Fort INIonmouth ? 

Secretary Stevexs. "We were. 

Senator Jacksox. You were investigating personnel? 

Secretary Stevexs. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jacksox. If I understand your testimony correctly, there 
was a total of 35 people at Fort Monmouth that were suspended. 

Secretary STE^'Exs. That is correct. 

Senator Jacksox. Am I correct in understanding that six were 
suspended prior to October 8 by the Army as poor security risks? 

Secretary Ste\texs. They were suspendecl after investigation as 
security risks; yes, sir. 

Senator Jacksox. Yes. What I meant to say is, suspended as 
possible security risks. 

Secretary Stevex^s. Correct. 

Senator Jacksox". Alleged security risks ? 

Secretary Stevexs. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jacksox. Then subsequent to October 8 — I believe October 
8 was the date of the opening of the McCarthy hearings. 

Secretary Stevexs. The formal hearings; yes, sir. 

Senator Jacksox. The formal hearings in executive session? 

Secretary Stevexs. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jacksox. Subsequent to October 8, 29 were suspended as 
possible security risks ? 

Secretary Stevexs. That is correct. 

Senator Jacksox. Making a total of 35? 

Secretary Stevexs. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jacksox. Of these 35, were all of them under investigation 
by the Army ? 

Secretary Stevexs. As far as I know. Senator Jackson, they were; 
but I would have to check to make sure that was true in respect of 
everyone. I think it was true in respect of every one of them. 

Senator Jacksox. Did I understand your testimony correctly yester- 
day that the additional 29 beyond the 6 that had been suspended prior 
to October 8 were suspended at the outset of the hearings because, 
wdiile you had not had full time to go over the files of these people, you 
felt that because the hearings were underway you should suspend them 
nevertheless ? 

Secretary Ste\t:xs. No, sir, not because the hearings were under- 
way ; because we expedited or looked at these people. As I said yester- 
day, in the case of a certain number of these people the suspension took 
place a little bit sooner than it otherwise would have, but we did not 
arbitrarily make the suspensions because the hearings had opened. 

Senator Jacksox. Do I understand the loyalty proceedings to be 
that before you make a suspension you make a pretty careful check 
into the allegation before you make a suspension, and tliMi you pro- 
ceed to have the hearings after the suspension ? 

Secretary Ste s. That is right, yes. We must have some reason- 
able basis for suspension. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 261 

Senator Jackson. Let's just clarify the point. The point is that you 
do suspend people without a hearing if tlie allegations against them 
would indicate that, if proven, they might be dangerous security risks? 

Secretary STE^•ENS. You stated it exactly correct. 

Senator Jackson. Suspensions are made by the Army and other 
Government agencies prior to formal hearings of the individuals 
involved? 

Secretary Stevens.. That is right. 

Senator Jackson. I wonder if you could tell the committee, of 
these 35, are any of them alleged to be Communists? I do think this 
testimony to be'important. It has been injected and injected into the 
hearings, and I am trying to get in my own mind — I have read about 
it in the newspapers aiid t have heard a lot about it, but I am confused. 

Secretary Stevens. Senator, I don't feel — I don't have personally 
the inforniation right at this moment to answer that question as to 
what the allegations might be in respect of all 35 cases. I just don't 
have that in my head. 

Of course, it is available, and to the extent that we can properly 
bring it before the committee, we will be glad to do so. 

Senator Jackson. I wonder this, Mr. Stevens : Would you be good 
enough to give to the committee a statement without reference to the 
individuals's names, the general nature of the allegations against 
them, and a summary of the action taken to date by the Army, for 
example, whether any of them have been reinstated, whether some of 
them have been fired, how long it will be before there is a determina- 
tion. 

I make this request of you, Mr. Stevens, because this matter has 
been kicked around in the newspapers, it has been discussed here in 
the committee; the American people, I think, are pretty confused. 
No one knows the true nature of the situation with reference to these 
35 people. 

I do believe that it would be helpful if the Army could submit a 
statement outlining the present status of the Fort Monmouth situation 
as to the suspended personnel for the open hearing. I think it might 
be well to give to the counsel of the committee also a classified state- 
ment which could not be released, but only for their fruidance and for 
information, if such were necessary, because of classified matc'rial. 

Secretary Stevens. Senator, we would like to submit anything that 
you want and, within the limits of the Presidential directives that 
apply, we will do so. 

Senator Jackson. I am not asking you to name the individuals, you 
understand. I am making this request in order to clear up statements 
made in this hearing, testimony that has been given. The American 
public, I think, certainly has a right, in view of the fact that much of 
this has come out in the hearings, to know just what is the situation 
with reference to the 35 personnel that are now under suspension or 
have been previously suspended by the Army at Fort Monmouth. 

Secretary STE^^:NS. All right, sir, we will prepare a statement. 

Senator Jackson. Now may I turn for a moment to some of the 
questions of yesterday with reference to Mr. Carr. 

As I understand it, your counsel, Mr. Welch, submitted a statement 
of allegations. 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 



262 SPECIAL IX\'ESTIGATION I 

Senator Jackson. Alleging a number of charges or making a num- 
ber of charges. Are those charges being made by you and Mr. Adams 
and anyone else? AVho is competent to testify as to the allegations 
contained in counsel's statement ? That is in addition to Mr. Stevens, 
■who have knowledge of the events that are alleged to have taken place 
in connection with those allegations ? 

Mr. "Welch. Mr. Chairman, I observe the Senator is looking at me. 

Senator Muxdt. You are not a witness and you cannot testify; you 
may raise a point of order. 

Mr. Welch. If the inquiry was directed at me, I will answer and 
not otherwise. 

Senator Muxdt. The Chair does not construe the counsel has be- 
come a witness. 

Senator Jackson. The point is that the allegations are signed by 
the counsel. 

Senator McCarthy. A point of order. 

Senator IMuxdt. I think the Secretary has to answer the question, 
he is the only witness who has been sworn. 

Senator Muxdt. It seems to me testimony has to be sworn, and if 
you are going to insist the counsel becomes a witness, the Chair will 
swear him. 

Senator Jackson. Mr. Stevens, the Army principals in this case are 
yourself and Mr. Adams, I take it, in addition to Mr. Hensel who is 
from the Dei^artment of Defense, is that correct ^ 

Secretary Stea'exs. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jacksox^ Now, as I understand it from your testimony 
yesterday, you have no direct knowledge of any statements that Mr. 
Carr made directly about any of the allegations contained in the state- 
ment of complaint filed by Mr. Welch. 

Secretary Stevex^s. Only to the extent that where I was involved. 
Senator Jackson. 

Senator Jacksox". But as I understand it, Mv. Carr was present at 
these various meetings, and I believe your testimony yesterday was to 
the effect that you had an impression originally that he may have 
commented on certain requests made by Mr. Colin or Senator Mc- 
Carthy, but that you had no direct recollection of any specific requests 
or statements that ]\Ir. Carr made. 

Secretary Stea-exs. That is correct. 

Senator Jackson. Now, do I understand, or do you know, if you 
can so testify, w hether Mr. Adams has that information ? You see the 
statement of allegations from the Army, and I cannot tell from the 
statement of allegations as to who is informed on these specific charges, 
whether it is you or Mr. Adams. 

Senator Muxdt. The Senator's time has expired, and he may con- 
tinue to pursue those questions when his time comes around again. 

Senator Potter, 

Senator Potter. Mr. Secretary, during the questioning yesterday 
concerning your allegations toward Mr. Carr, I believe you stated that 
you had no recollection of anything that INIr. Carr said at that meet- 
ing, and I believe it was November 6, is that correct? 

Secretary Ste\t:ns, October 2. 

Senator Potter. October 2? 

Secretary Stevexs. Yes. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 263 

Senator Potter. Has your memory been refreshed since the meet- 
ing yesterday concerning any positive activity on the part of Mr. Carr 
at that meeting, which would cause you to inchide hnn as one of the 
participants in the alleged pressure for preferential treatment on 
behalf of Private Schine'^ 

Secretary Stevens. Well, Senator Potter, I have searched my mem- 
ory, and my conscience, and I have also talked with Mr. Adams who 
is to be a witness here, and if the only evidence in respect to Mr. Carr 
was the happenings of October 2, and if I were his judges, as you are, 
I M'ould acquit him. But there is more evidence to come, and I think 
that his fate must await the end of the case when all of the evidence 
is in. 

Senator Potter. I am sorry, are you through ? 

Secretary Stevens. Mr. Carr telephoned Mr. Adams in respect to 
Schine on many occasions. 

Senator McCarthy. A point of order, Mr. Chairman. 

Secretary Stevens. He relayed mesages from Mr. Cohn to Mr. 
Adams. 

Senator Mundt. State your point of order. 
, Senator McCarthy. In view of the fact Mr. Adams is one of the 
principals, I make a point of order it is entirely improper for Mr. 
Stevens to testify what Mr. Adams is going to say. 

Secretary Stevens. All I am trying to do is give the committee the 
answer to this question. 

Senator Mundt. Just a moment, the Chair wants to counsel with 
counsel. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Stevens is Secretary of the Army, 
and he cannot in the very nature of things have personal knowledge 
of everything about which he testifies. His very conduct, his thoughts, 
and actions are all under scrutiny, and he is entitled and must neces- 
sarily, upon many occasions, rely upon information given to him 
by his subordinates. 

I think it is entirely proper for the Secretary of the Army to state 
and to give information conveyed to him by his subordinates and his 
associates. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, a point of order. 

Mr. Stevens is being questioned about a conversation when Mr. 
Adams was not present, and his testimony on that has been completely 
contradictory, and I make a point of order that in order to bolster 
that contradictory testimony, he cannot quote what Mr. Adams has 
told him about other conversations; and, Mr. Chairman, the further 
point of order is that his answer is not responsive. 

Mr. Potter was asking him about a specific conversation, on October 
2, and I think Mr. Jenkins is correct if one of his subordinates could 
aid him in answering that question, good. But no subordinate was 
present and no subordinate knows anything about that conversation, 
and either Mr. Stevens is telling the truth when the bill of particu- 
lars was made out, and I assume he didn't make it himself, or he was 
telling the truth the other day in answer to Mr. Jenkins' question. 

Mr. Jenkins. May I ask, for my guidance, that the question and 
the answer be read by the reporter? Frankly, I was talking to Sen- 
ator Jackson and did not hear it. 



264 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator Mundt. The Chair will ask the reporter to read the ques- 
tion and the answer so that we may determine whether the point of 
order stands. 

Senator Potter. I assume that you will instruct the timekeeper 
that this doesn't come out of my 10 minutes. 

(Whereupon, the reporter read the questions and answers as above 
recorded.) 

Mr. Jenkixs. I must in all good conscience reverse myself, INIr. 
Chairman. The answer to that question does not reflect upon the 
conduct of the Secretary of the Army, and he was beintz; specifically 
questioned as to whether or not he, the witness now, had any knowl- 
edge of any statement made to him by Mv. Carr, and he says that 
he has none, and he goes further and he says tliat there are other 
witnesses. 

I think the Secretary is entirely correct in his statement that at this 
time this committee should not exonerate or render a verdict of not 
guilty against Mr. Carr because all of the proof is not in and this com- 
mittee cannot necessarily judge of the guilt or innocence of any party, 
so to speak, until all of the proof is in. 

I reiterate I do not think it proper in view of the specific inquiry, 
and the bounds to which it is confi-ned, for the Secretary in answer to 
Senator Potter's question to state what other people know about Mr. 
Carr because those other people are present and available as witnesses. 

Senator Mundt. On the advice of counsel, therefore, the Chair will 
uphold the point of order raised by Senator McCarthy. 

Senator McClellan i 

Senator McClellan. May I make this observation for what I con- 
sider the benefit of all and the further orderly procedures of this 
hearing. We must bear in mind that the v»'ord ""competency" with 
respect to evidence is not a part of the rules of this special hearing; 
only tlie word "materiality" and the word "relevancy." The word 
"competency" was purposely omitted from the rules after it was 
discussed by us at the time we were formulating the rules, and much 
testimony might be material or relevant, and yet would be incompe- 
tent in a court of law. We have to bear that in mind as we conduct 
these hearings. 

Senator Jackson. One point of order, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Jackson? 

Senator Jackson. I am sure this is a point of order. 

It is my miderstanding that hearsay evidence is admissible here, 
although it would be incompetent as Senator McClellan previously 
made the point. This is a point of order to the chairman. It is my 
understanding that while hearsay evidence, of course, is not admis- 
sible in a court of law to be offered for the truth of tlie matter asserted, 
hearsay evidence is admissible in this proceeding, provided witnesses 
will be called later to corroborate or to testify as to the statements 
made by third parties. Is that correct ? 

Senator Mundt. That is correct. Counsel has pointed out that in 
this instance we have a witness who is here to testify, and the question 
might better be directed to him. 

Senator Jackson. Yes ; but I do not want to be confused on the rules. 

Mr. Jenkins. May I clarify my statement, Senator Jackson? 
Hearsay testimony is certainly competent in an inquiry of this nature 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 265 

in instances where a principal party involved must necessarily rely 
upon what has been told him by his subordinates and his associates, 
and in instances where he acts upon that and where he is entitled to. 
That has been the rule followed thus far. 

Carryinf; it further, Senator McCarthy will certainly be entitled, 
when he takes the witness stand, to state what was told him by his 
associates, the members of his staff. 

INIy point is that, as far as this particular inquiry is concerned, it 
is directed at the Secretary of the Army to determine whether or not 
there should now be given a clean bill of health to Frank Carr. That 
does not lie within the province of the Secretary of the Army. It 
lies within the province of this committee. 
, Senator Jackson. I agree with that statement 100 percent. 

Mr. Jenkins. He is asked specifically what Frank Carr told him, 
with the idea that perhaps there should now be a vote on the guilt 
or innocence of Mr. Carr. 

Very properly, therefore, I think that the Secretary should be con- 
fined to what, if anything, he heard Mr. Carr say, and I think the 
Secretary very properly stated that he did not feel that a clean bill 
of health should be given Mr. Carr at this time. 

Senator Symington. A point of order, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, a point of order. 

Senator Mundt. State your point of order. Senator Symington. 

Senator Symington. Yesterday there was a great deal of testi- 
mony — I ask this for clarification — a great many questions were asked 
Mr. Stevens with respect to Mr. Carr. The counsel for Mr. Stevens 
pointed out that under the urging of this committee and its counsel, he 
had worked very late at night, without Mr. Stevens present. My im- 
pression was, based on the way he said it, that he himself had 
made the charges, and that he had gotten them up and shipped them 
in rapidly. 

The first paragraph included the name of Mr. Carr with Senator 
McCarthy and Mr. Cohn. Mr. Stevens said that he was not up exactly 
on what had been said. 

What I would like to ask is: Inasmuch as Mr. Welch has and Mr. 
Stevens in effect has stated that primarily the reason for Mr. Carr's 
being in these charges was because of what Mr. Adams' relationship 
was with Mr. Carr as against Mr. Stevens' relationship, then why is 
it not proper for Mr. Stevens to bring that up as he discusses the 
matter this morning ? 

Those are said in laymen's words, and I am not a lawyer, although 
I will be one before this hearing is over. Nevertheless, I would like 
to ask what is wrong about that point ? 

Mr. Jenkins. Senator Symington, it is proper for Mr. Stevens to 
state that in the preparation of these charges and the inclusion of Mr. 
Carr as a party in interest, he relied upon what he considered reliable 
information; but I do not think it is proper for him to state what the 
informanon was, because witnesses are available to sustain that. 

Senator Symington. Another point of order, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Do you have another point of order, Senator 
Symington? 

Senator SYivnNGTON. In order to clarify my mind on the situation, 
when will we have the witness and who will the witness be who will 
clarify the situation that Mr. Stevens was trying to clarify ? 



266 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator Mundt. That is a point of order. It is one I cannot answer. 

Senator Potter has the floor. The point of order has been upheld. 

Senatcr McCarthy. Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. The point of order has been upheld. 

Do ;^Dn have a point of order ? 

Senatcrr McCarthy. Yes. In this round robin, I also have some- 
thing to be brought up as a point of order, if you can call it points of 
order. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair must insist that points of order deal 
with relevancy and materiality. 

Senatcr McCarthy. Let's wait until I finish and let the Chair decide 
that, if you don't mind. 

Senator Mundt. State your point of order. 

Senator McCarthy. I would like to make the point of order that 
counsel has made, I am sure, an honest mistake — he is doing an excel- 
lent job here — he has made the statement that Mr. Stevens was asked 
about th'? guilt or innocence of Mr. Carr. That is not correct. Mr. 
Stevens was asked the simple question what his recollection of what 
occurred on October 2 was. I don't think it is up to Mr. Stevens to 
pass upon guilt or innocence, if such is involved in this case. I think, 
therefore, his deviation was highly improper, and I think that Mr. 
Stevens should be ordered by the Chair — at least I would so advise 
him — that he stick to answering the question. We could save all this 
hasseling if he does. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Potter has the floor, and he may proceed. 

Senator Potter. Mr. Chairman, I hadn't intended that my question 
raise such a conference, and I won't ask the Secretary as to what 
conversation took place between Mr. Carr and Mr. Adams, because Mr. 
Adams will be a witness before the committee. 

I would like to ask you this, Mr. Secretary. In your bill of particu- 
lars you stated that INIr. Cohn contacted you many times regarding 
Private Schine in an effort to secure certain advantages for Mr. 
Schine. Mr. Cohn, as an individual seeking better treatment for his 
friend — would that be an improper action ? 

Secretary Stevens. In my opinion, it would. 

Senator Potter. As an individual, whether it be Roy Cohn or 
whether it be Charlie Potter ? 

Secretary Ste%^ns. He was chief counsel for this committee. 

Senator Potter. I am referring, Mr. Secretary, to an individual by 
the name of Roy Cohn, asking you for better treatment for his friend, 
Dave Schine. That act in itself — would that be improper? 

Secretary Stevens. If pursued to an unreasonable length, I think it 
would be. 

Senator Potter. Do you consider the alleged effort made by Senator 
McCarthy as an individual Senator, not as c-liairman of this committee 
but as an individual Senator, asking for special treatment for Dave 
Schine — do you consider that an improper action ? 

Secretary STE^^:NS. I think it was a most unusual action. Senator 
Potter, the instances that I have testified to here in which Senator 
McCarthy was involved. But we must also bear in mind, as I think 
1 have indicated before, that a great deal, a major portion of this pres- 
sure was coming from Cohn. It was coming from Cohn, as I viewed 
him, as chief counsel of this committee under the chairmanship of 
Senator McCarthy. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION" 267 

Senator Poiter. Then is it yonr contention, Mr. Secretary 

Senator McCarthy. A point of order, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Muxdt. The Senator will state the point. 

Senator McCarthy. It is directed at Senator Potter. I am sure the 
Senator did not intend to do this. He has just made the statement in 
his question that McCarthy is asking for special privilege for Schine. 

Senator Potter. I believe I said "alleged." 

Senator McCarthy. I know you did not intend to do it, but I think 
the record should be straight. 

Senator Muxdt. The word "alleged" will appear because Senator 
Potter thinks he included it. He may continue. 

Senator Potter. Now, Mr. Secretary, am I correct in stating that 
it is your contention that the alleged activity by Senator McCarthy 
and Mr. Colin was done as representatives of the investigating weapon 
of the Senate rather than as individuals? Is that your contention? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Senator Potter. Now, Mr. Secretary, the countercharge that has 
been made by Senator McCarthy and Mr, Cohn and Mr. Carr, that you, 
the Army, used Mr. Schine as a hostage in order to curtail the inves- 
tigations at Fort Monmouth — now first, is that allegation true or false ? 

Secretary Stevens. False. 

Senator Potter. Now, in other words, here we have been discussing 
for several days, mainly technical points, but the question resolves it- 
self into these two factors : First, the allegation made by the Army 
that Senator McCarthy, Roy Cohn, and Mr. Carr, not as individuals 
but as representing a weapon of the United States Senate, the investi- 
gating arm, put unusual pressure on the Army in order to secure 
preferential treatment on behalf of David Schine. 

Second, the charge made by Senator McCarthy, Mr. Cohn, and Mr. 
Carr, that the Army, members of the personnel of the Army, have 
used Mr. Schine as a tool in order to halt the investigation of subver- 
sives at Fort Monmouth — now as you see it, is that the essence, the 
core, of this particular hearing? If it is not, we are wasting a lot of 
time. 

Secretary Stevens. With your permission. Senator Potter, I would 
like to have a look at that question because 

Senator Mundt. We cannot let you look at it, but we can have it 
reread. 

Secretary Ste\t:ns. I do not know whether I can answer it even 
after it is reread. 

Senator Mundt. You can make notes on it if you want to while the 
recorder reads it. 

(The question was read by the reporter.) 

Senator Potter. Do you concur with that, Mr. Secretary ? 

Secretary Stevens. I think, as I said, it is a big question. Senator 
Potter, and I do not know that it is up to me to testify. It seems to 
me that the committee 

Senator Potter. My point is this, IMr. Secretary: That we are 
wasting the time of the members of the committee and members of the 
Department of the Army to ascertain what Roy Cohn said to John 
Adams, or what Senator McCarthy said to you, which is in essence im- 
material unless the power and authority of the Senate were misused 
which is a serious thing ; or by the same token, unless people in the 

46620°— 54— pt. 7 3 



268 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION" 

Army misused their public trust in order to keep from having an 
investigation. 

Now, as to the various chitchats between various members of this 
committee and the committee staff, with members of the Army, they 
are unimportant. Also unimportant in my opinion are the times that 
Roy Cohn as an individual called you or called members of the Army 
to get better treatment for his friend, David Schine. That may not be 
proper, but it is something that certainly this committee should not be 
concerned with nor with the fact that Senator McCarthy had many 
talks with you concerning David Schine. The only circumstance 
under which I can see that it would be of importance to this com- 
mittee would be in case the power and influence of this committee 
had been used improperly or if the Army has used their trust of office 
improperly in order to evade a congressional investigation. 

That is all I have to say, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Muxdt. Were you asking that in the form of a question? 

Very well, Senator Symington. 

Senator Stmingtox. Well, Mr. Cliairman, first I would like to get 
something cleared up in my mind. Senator Jackson asked a question 
and it was somewhat technical. The counsel for Secretary Stevens 
attempted to answer it, and you told him that he had to be sworn if 
he was going to answer. Xow, Secretary Stevens is not a lawyer, 
and I would like to know what the rule on that is. Do we want the 
information or do we want to stick to legal technicality, in which case 
why don't we swear Mr. Welch now so he can answer questions for 
the committee that Mr. Stevens is not capable of answering? 

Senator Muxdt. The Chair is simply operating under our basic 
rule, that all testimony in these hearings should be sworn testimony. 
Mr. Welch is here, as I understand it, as counsel and not as a witness. 

]Mr. Welch. jNIr. Chairman, I thought the inquiry was directed to 
the question of who will be the next witness, or am I wrong ? I was 
prepared to say who Avould be the next witness, if that was proper. 

Senator Jacksox. Now, the purpose of my question, just for clari- 
fication, is that the bill of complaint, shall we call it, filed by the Army 
and signed by Mr. Welch as counsel does not indicate which witnesses 
will testify from the Army regarding the allegations contained in 
paragraphs 1 through 29. That was my only point. I could not tell 
in reading throngli the allegations whether Mr. Adams has the knowl- 
edge about certain allegations or whether the Secretary of the Army 
has, and I was trying to clarify the record from yesterday. 

Senator Stmix^gton. I have made my point. 

Senator Muxdt. Senator Symington has the floor. 

Senator Stmix^gtox^. I hope we sometimes are broadminded with 
respect to the legal technicalities, if in being broadminded we have 
further success in obtaining the truth. 

Now, yesterday there was some testimony, and I would like to read 
it on my time. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Stevens, did you ever have your pliotograph taken with 
Mr. G. David Schine? 

Secretary Stevens. Well, there were a lot of photo^aphers around down there 
at that hearing, and it could be. 

Mr. Jenkins. But did you ever at your suggestion at a meeting any time any- 
where say, "I want my picture taken with David," and have it done? 

Secretary Stevens. I am sure that I never made a statement just like you 
made it tliere. I mean, if there was a picture being taken and there were 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2G9 

people around, I might be very apt to say, "Well, let's all step in liere and have 
our picture," but I don't thiuli I ever made any demand to have my picture taken 
with Mr. David Schine. 

Now I call attention to the next question. 

Mr. Jenkins. I did not say "demand," but was your picture, after David 
Schine was drafted, ever taken with you alone at your suggestion anywhere? 

Now, Mr. Chairman, I have great respect for this counsel, as have 
others who expressed it this morning, and I do not believe he would 
have answered that question in that way if he had not been misled by 
this picture. The point I want to make is not only are there three 
people in this picture, but there is a fourth because you can see a hand 
and a coat of a civilian. I think it very important in the interest of 
fairness that we be told sometime in public hearing all about this 
picture. 

Naturally, it put Mr. Stevens in a bad light because it looked as if 
he were defensive when he tried to figure in his mind whether he had 
ever asked to have a picture taken alone with Mr. Schine or whether 
he had ever had his picture taken alone with Mr. Schine. 

Based on the evidence yesterday afternoon, this committee was 
attempting to prove through its counsel that he had had his picture 
taken along with Mr. Schine. Based on the evidence presented this 
morning, it is obvious that at least from the standpoint of this picture 
he had the right to hesitate because his picture was not taken alone 
with ]\Ir. Schine. 

My last question, Mr. Chairman, is this : Mr. Secretary, yesterday 
with respect to the question of Mr. Carr you used the w^ords "minor" 
and "passive." 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. You did not draw up these charges. In trying 
to figure out what was running through your mind after reading the 
testimony again this morning, my impression is that you felt that ]\Ir. 
Carr in effect was supporting Mr. Cohn because he was with him; 
is that correct ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. You do not remember whether he did or did 
not actually participate in the conversation ; is that correct. 

Secretary Stevens. I cannot recall a quote, Senator Symington. 

Senator Symington. You cannot recall a quote ? 

Secretary Stevens. No, sir. 

Senator Symington. You think that the question of Mr. Carr's 
participation can better be handled by subsequent w^itnesses based on 
the charges; is that correct? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Jenkins. 

Mr. Jenkins. May I, in answer to a statement made by Senator 
Symington with respect to the picture introduced yesterday of the 
Secretary and Mr. Schine, make this statement? That the picture 
in its original form was handed to me by an adverse party in interest 
as being what the picture itself represented, to wit, a photograph of 
the Secretary and of Private Schine. No intimation, no insinuation 



270 SPECIAL IXVESTIGATIOX 

■UTis made tliat the picture liad in any vrise been changed or altered or 
that anyone's picture had been taken out of it. 

If the committee thinks it is proper at this time to establish that 
fact, I am prepared now to call one of the adverse parties to the witness 
stand and under oath establish that fact. 

Senator Jacksox. Mr. Chairman, I think that should be done 
"without delay as soon as we get back to the picture situation because 
I think this committee has a right to know Avhere this picture came 
from. 

"We have agreed that the Army must produce, and I understand they 
have offered to produce, the photogTapher who took the original 
picture. I think the same rule should apply with equal force in any 
attempt to authenticate, if that is possible, the picture of yesterday. 

Mr. Jexkixs. In view of the controversy which has arisen over the 
picture and the apparently widespread interest in it, I think, Mr. 
Chairman, in all fairness to everybody concerned, I should have 
Mr. Stevens stand aside at this moment — I think it will take no miore 
than 5 minutes to do it — and establish the circumstances under which 
that picture was handed to me. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman? 

Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy. 

Senator McCarthy. May I say I agree with that heartily, but first 
I do think we should finish the round of questioning. Being the low 
man on the totem pole I don't like to be constantly cut out. 

Senator ]\Iundt. The Chair was about to suggest that we give ]\Ir. 
Welch his 10 minutes, the Senator his 10 minutes, and then establish 
that. Then we will have concluded the picture. 

Senator McCarthy. I think you forgot Senator Dworshak. 

Senator Mundt. And Senator Dworshak, I beg your pardon. Sen- 
ator Dworshak, 10 minutes. 

Senator Dworshak. Mr. Secretary, you admitted yesterday that the 
activities of the investigating subcommittee had expedited efforts of 
the Army to expose subversives and security risks at Fort JNIonmouth. 

I should like to know whether the work of the committee has in- 
spired the Department of the Army to initiate or to expand its activi- 
ties in other installations to overcome subversive elements. 

Secretary Stevens. "VVe have continuing progress. Senator Dwor- 
shak, which is constantly going on. Whatever we learn in one area 
we apply in another. 

I think that we are doing a constantly better job in the area of 
ferreting out subversives. 

Senator Dworshak. Can you tell the committee whether you have 
exposed any specific instances, any security risks in other installa- 
tions ? I don't think that is classified information. 

Secretary Stevens. I would have to check that up, Senator Dwor- 
shak. I can get it for you. 

Senator Dworshak, You have indicated in some of your statements 
that the morale of the Army has been adversely affected by the activi- 
ties at Fort Monmouth in disclosing the prevalence there of these 
secnrity risks. I think that this situation may be improved materially 
so far as the Department of the Army is concerned and it would be in 
the interest of the American people if you could give some assurances 
of the effective result of the work by your Department in exposing 
these elements in other installations. Can you do that ? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION" 271 

Secretary Stevens. I think we have done an increasingly better job 
throughout the Department of the Army in all of our installations and 
all of our units in finding security risks, subversives, and taking the 
proper action with respect to them. 

There has been a lot of testimony in regard to that before the Armed 
Services Committee of the Senate. 

Senator Dworshak. It has been disclosed that 35 persons were ac- 
cused and charged at Fort Monmouth. Can you point specifically to 
any other instances where subversives have been exposed in other 
installations? 

Secretary Stevens. That would be possible, but I would like to get 
the actual facts before I attempt that, sir. 

Senator Dworshak. Do you think the investigation conducted by 
this subcommittee at Fort Monmouth has had a salutary effect upon 
the activities of the Army in other places ? 

Secretary Stevens. I think we are doing a better job. 
Senator Dworshak. You do recognize, of course, the essential need 
of exposing these fifth columns and these saboteurs, because as we face 
the global menace of communism aggression, certainly we ought to be 
assured in every way that the Army installations are free from these 
subversive elements. 

Secretary Stevens. I recognize that completely. Senator Dworshak, 
and I started on my very first day in office to do something about it, 
and I have kept at it relentlessly ever since and I intend to continue 
that. 

Senator Dworshak. Then you are not resentful, as a result of that 
statement, of any of the activities of this committee at Fort ISIon- 
mouth? You may criticize the procedural methods but you do ap- 
prove heartily any work which is done by any congressional committee 
to expose these subversives ? 
Secretary Stevens. I do. 

Senator Dw'ORSHAK. You intend to continue to the best of your 
ability and the maximum capacity of the Department of the Army 
to give assurances to the American people that the Army is as free 
of subversives as it is possible to be. 
Secretary Stentsns. That is correct. 
Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch, you have 10 minutes. 
Mr. Welch. Thank you, sir. I don't think I need it at this moment. 
I will pass for this moment. 

Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy or Mr. Cohn, you have 10 
minutes. 

Senator McCarthy. ISIay I have those pictures, please? 
Mr. Stevens, now that we have the original picture, supplied, I 
understand, by the Army, do you recognize David Schine? Yester- 
day you had some difficulty. 
Secretary Stevt^ns. Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. There is no question that this is David Schine? 
Secretary Stevens. I think that is David Schine. 
Senator McCarthy. 'Wlio is the third man, do you know? 
Secretary Ste\t:ns. Colonel Bradley is his name, please. 
Senator Mundt. Will the photographers kindly obey the rules of 
the committee? The television people are understandably complain- 
ing that all they get is the backs of the photographers. We have a 



272 SPECIAL IN^'ESTIGATIOX 

ruling and will you please take your pictures, if at all, from a kneeling 
or seated position ? That is the rule. 

Senator McCarthy. There is a fourth man Tvho has been cut off. I 
know Mr. Welch objected to the third man being cut off. Is there 
any objection to the Army photographer having cut off the fourth 
man? 

Secretary Stevens. I take it that is the size of the picture, Senator 
McCarthy. 

Senator McCarthy. That is the size of this picture. You don't 
claim it is doctored because the fourth man is cut off; do you? 

Secretary Stevexs. No. 

Senator JMcCarthy. Let me ask you this now : If you take off the 
third man, does that change the setup insofar as you and Mr. Schine 
are concerned in any way ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir, INIcCarthy. 

Senator McCarthy. It does ? 

Secretary Stevens. It does in the sense. Senator McCarthy, that 
yesterday Mr. Jenkins asked me the question — and it surprised me 
very much — if I had had my picture taken with David Schine alone. 
"When my memory was possibly not too good on that point, he imme- 
diately refreshed my memory with the production of that picture. 

Senator McCarthy. May I ask you this: The man who took this 
picture was not a press photographer. This was taken at Maguire 
Base. The only photographers present were Army enlisted photog- 
raphers; is that correct? 

Secretary vStevens. I don't know. I imagine it would be Air Force. 
It was an Air Force base. 

Senator j^IcCarthy. Now, you know, also, that those photographers 
were not taking pictures of colonels, or Secretary of the Army, unless 
they were requested to do so. They weren't around like the young 
men around here, just taking pictures at will; were they? 

Secretary Stevens. I can't ever remember having asked or made a 
request to have my picture taken, sir, and yet it has been photo- 
graphed, I am afraid, thousands of times. 

Senator jMcCarthy. Let me ask you this: I assume that Mr. 
Schine — and I understand this came from Schine's office — I assume 
Mr. Schine got this picture from the Army, and do you know whether, 
when he requested this, he merely got a picture of himself and Mr. 
Adams, or whether he also had the third and fourth man on here? 
I am rather curious, myself. 

Secretary S'tevens. I can't answer that question, and I don't know 
what he got. 

Senator McCarthy. You Ivnow that someone from the Army sent 
Mr. Schine this photograph, and I can understand how he would 
be proud, a private in the Army, having a picture taken with the 
Secretary, and I can understand when he frames that why he would 
not put on — I don't know who this is, perhaps Mr. Adams over here, 
or he might want to have Mr. Adams on, on second thought. But 
you claim that as of now, you do not remember asking the photog- 
raphers to take this picture ? 

Secretary Stevens. I certainly do. 

Senator McCarthy. You do not remember asking? 

Secretar}^ Ste\t:ns. I do not remember asking him, Senator Mc- 
Carthy. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 273 

Senator McCarthy. Aside from taking oil the fourth man who is 
taken off by the Army photojzrapher, the third man who was either 
taken otf by Mr. Schine or someone else, aside from tliat, is this 
picture completely accurate as introduced yesterday and the one 
today? 

Secretary Stevens. I am certainly not goino- to say anything about 
the picture having been accurate when it was doctored. 

Senator McCarthy. Let us see that. "Would you examine those 
two, Mr. Secretary? Examine the picture of you and Schine, and 
tell me whether there is any doctoring exce])t I believe a little less 
of jour leg on one than on tlie other and a little less of Mr. Schine's 
feet on one than the other. Other tlian that, is there any change in 
the picture ? 

INlay I say, I do not think that there is anything improper with 
your having your picture taken with Mr. Schine or anyone else. 
In view of the fact this matter is brought up this morning, I think 
that we should go into it in some detail. 

(The photograph was handed to the Secretary.) 

Secretary Stevens. I didn't get the question, and if the question is 
before me, I Avould like to know what it is. 

Senator McCarthy. I will repeat the question. The question, Mr. 
Secretary — and if you have your aide let that down so that I can 
see you — the question is, aside from cutting off the fourth man who 
was cut off, apparently, by the Army photographer, and I assume that 
is Mr. Adams, and cutting off the third man, who is either cut off by 
Mr. Schine or someone in my committee, and we will find that out 
when Mr. Jenkins calls them to the stand — aside from that, is the 
picture of you and Mr. Schine completely accurate, and is there any 
doctoring in any way ? 

Secretary Ste\'ens. I would have to examine closely, and I would 
say that looking at it quickly, that that is probably true. Senator 
McCarthy, that the rest of it is. 

Senator McCarthy. Completely accurate ? 

Secretary Stevens. But, I think you overlooked the major trouble 
with this picture, which is that it was introduced on the basis that I 
had asked for a picture with Dave Schine alone, and I have no recol- 
lection of asking for such a picture; and the picture, the other picture 
here this morning proves that such was not the case. 

Senator McCarthy. Let me say that whether you had your pic- 
ture with Schine alone or with another colonel, as far as I am con- 
cerned, it doesn't concern me, and I don't think it is improper at all. 
I think that you are entitled to have your picture taken Avherever 
you want to. But do you think that having another colonel in the 
picture, having another colonel standing on the other side of the pri- 
vate, you on one side and the colonel on the other, does that decrease 
the significance or increase the significance in any way ? 

Secretary Stevens. I think it increases the significance of what is 
happening here tremendously, because it shows that somebody has 
taken it upon themselves to edit the information that is going to come 
before this committee. 

Senator McCarthy. How about the editing of Mr. Adams' face 
over there ? "\^Tio did that ; do you know ? 

Secretary Stevens. I have no idea Avho tliat other one is, and it 
might be Senator McCarthy. 



274 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator Mundt. This will not be taken out of the Senator's time ; 
and perhaps the chairman was derelict this morning in failing to re- 
peat the committee rule, which is pretty generally understood, I am 
sure, by those who have been in attendance at the committee sessions 
earlier. They are that there will be no manifestations of approTal or 
disapproval at any time, in any way, from the audience. The officers 
have a standing order to politely escort from the room peoi)le who 
violate that rule. 

I am not going to enforce it at this time, but from now on I expect 
the officers to enforce that rule. 

We are trying with great difficulty to have these proceedings heard, 
with a tremendous number of guests, and we are all happy to have you 
here, but you must comply with the committee rule. 

Senator McCarthy ? 

Senator McCarthy. That is not off my time, is it ? 

Senator Mundt. No ; it is not off your time. 

Senator McCarthy. You said this might have been Senator Mc- 
Carthy, and it might have been, because I was there when you called 
the photographer over to have the picture taken, except I notice this 
is not my hat in the picture, but let me ask you this : You object to 
the third man being cut off, and I can see where you would. I think 
that is a legitimate objection. Do you object to the fourth man being 
cut off ? 

Secretary STE^^NS. I think we should find out from the photogra- 
pher as to whether or not that is the size of the film and that that is 
exactly where it cut off automatically.. 

Senator McCarthy. I think that is a good idea. 

Now, Mr. Secretary, you said the other day that you wanted to get 
the hearings suspended. You have succeeded in that, have you not? 
You have succeeded in getting the hearings on the Communist infil- 
tration in the military suspended. Your success is complete as of 
today, is it not ? 

Secretary Stevens. I don't — I wish you would repeat that, Senator 
McCarthy. 

Senator McCarthy. I will be glad to. 

You testified the other day that you wanted to suspend the hearings 
on Communist infiltration in the military. I say that as of today, 
your success is complete, and they are completely susx^ended; is that 
correct ? 

Secretary Stevens. I don't know whether they are or not. 

Senator McCarthy. Well, you said you wanted the hearings sus- 
pended. 

Secretary Ste\T!:ns. I assume that your committee is still active, 
Senator. 

Senator JMcCarthy. You made a special point the other day, and 
you said, "I did not want the investigation suspended ; I wanted the 
hearings suspended." And you know there have been no hearings 
since your office issued the attacks upon Mr. Cohn, Mr. Schine, and 
myself. In other words, you have been successful, have you not? 

Secretary Steatens. I don't regard that as success at all ; no, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Well, let us see. You wanted the hearings 
suspended; is that right? 

Secretary Stevens. I wanted the type of hearings changed. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATIOISr 275 

Senator McCarthy. Well, now, you said the other day you wanted 
them suspended, are you changing that testimony? 

Secretary Stevens. I wanted to have — and I stated it several times 
yesterday and I will state it again — that I wanted to have the constant 
hammering of the Army over the head with respect to Fort ]\Ion- 
niouth stopped, because it was creating an impression in the minds 
of the American people, as well as the Army, that was not a fair or 
accurate picture. 

S?nator McCartiit. Now, Mr. Secretary, all of the things you said 
yesterday were taken down. 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Senator 'McCarthy. Do you deny today that yesterday, in answer 
to ]Mr. Jenkins' question, you said that you did not want to stop the 
hearings but you wanted the hearings suspended ? Isn't that correct ? 
If you insist, I will be glad to go through the testimony and dig 
it out. 

Secretary Stevens. I said that I thought that the Fort IMonmouth 
hearing had served its purpose. 

Senator McCarthy. And should be suspended? 

Secretary Stevens. And that we would carry it on. and we would 
make progress reports to you; and if it wasn't satisfactory, the in- 
vestigation would be continued anyway on your part, on the part of 
your staff, and that you would come right back into the picture. 

Senator McCarthy. Bob, I am asking you a very simple question : 
Did you yesterday say that you wanted to have the hearings 
suspended ? 

Secretary Stevens. I said that I wanted to have 

Senator McCarthy. Now, tell me "yes" or "no." 

Secretary STE^^;NS. Well, let us look up the record. 

Senator McCarthy. Don't you remember? 

Secretary Stevens. Senator McCarthy, there are a great many 
things happening, and I am trying to remember as best I can, as these 
questions come along, and get out the facts right here in front of this 
committee, and I may not always be able to immediately answer, to 
recall something as you are now asking me. 

Senator Mundt. The time of the Senator has expired. In con- 
formity with the agreement of the committee, the chairman will now 
ask Secretary Stevens, if he will, to step aside temporarily, and the 
counsel would like to call a different witness. 

:Mr. Jenkins. I should like to call at this time Mr. Roy Cohn. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Cohn will come to the stand. 

ISIr. Cohn, do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to 
give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so 
help you God ? 

Mr. Cohn. I do, sir. 

Senator Mundt. You may be seated. 

TESTIMONY OF EOY M. COHN 

Mr. Cohn. At the outset may I have the record indicate that I am 
not represented by counsel and that none of the various persons here 
as aides represent me in any way. I am here myself, and I am here 
to answer any questions which Mr. Jenkins might have to ask of me. 

40620°— 54— pt. 7 — —4 



276 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

I welcome the opportunity to state tlie circumstances of tliis picture 
and the fact that it was taken at the request of Mr. Stevens. I ask 
that other witnesses be called to establish that fact. 
Senator Mundt, Counsel will proceed. 

Mr. Jenkins. For the purposes of identification, you are Mr. Koy 
M. Cohn. 

Mr. CoiiN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Counsel for this committee? 
Mr. CoHN. That is right, Mr. Jenkins. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Cohn, since my appointment as special attorney 
for this committee, I have from time to time been to your oflice in 
consultation with you and other witnesses that you expect to intro- 
duce in an effort to ascertain your side of this controversy here. Is 
that not correct? 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Jenkins, you have— and it is our desire to give 
you— the facts, which is what we hope to establish at these hearings. 

Mr. Jenkins. I believe that last evening after the sessions were 
concluded about 5 p. m., I spent some 3 or 31/2 hours in your office. 
Ml'. CoHN. You did, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. As I have done on evenings previous to that. 
Mr. CoHN. I think once or twice prior. 

Mr. Jenkins. I think perhaps I have told you that I prepared Mr. 
Stevens' and Mr. Adams' side of this controversy first and had spent 
some 4 or 5 days in consultation with them and their witnesses at 
the Pentagon. 

Mr. CoiiN. That j^ou did, Mr. Jenkins. 

Mr. Jenkins. So it has all been, as far as you know and as far as I 
know, open and aboveboard on my part for the purpose of ascertain- 
ing the facts. Is that not correct ? 
^Ir. Cohn. There is no doubt about it. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Cohn, the day before yesterday, perhaps late 
in the afternoon or in the evening, you and I had a considerable con- 
ference in your office, did we not ? 
]\Ir. CoiiN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. With respect to your charges against Mr. Stevens 
and IVIr. Adams, is that correct? 
]Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. I will ask you whether or not in that conference a 
great deal of the time or perhaps all the time iMr. Frank Carr was 
present and Mr. James Juliana and myself and you. 
:Mr. Cohn. I believe that is correct, Mr. Jenkins. 
lilr. Jenkins. I will ask you whether or not, Mr. Cohn, during that 

conference the day before yesterday you stated to me 

Mr. CoiiN. Excuse me, Mr. Jenkins. You say the day before yester- 
day? 
i\Ir. Jenkins. In our conference of the day before yesterday. 
INIr. Cohn. Wait a minute. Today is Tuesday, is that correct? 
I believe it was the end of last week. 

Mr. Jenkins. I think perhaps you are right about that. It does 
not make any particular difference. In your conference with me and 
in my questioning you with respect to the allegations of the ISIcCarthy 
committee against Mr. Stevens and Mr. Adams you stated to me that 
on November 17— and this inquiry is confined, Mr. Cohn, we under- 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION" 277 

staiul, to the one issue now in controvers}' alone; and that is with 
respect to these photographs. 

Mr. CoHN. Yes. 

Mr. Jenkins. You stated to me on that occasion that Mr. Stevens 
as Secretary of the Army on tliat date requested David Schine to be 
photographed with him. 

JNIr. CoHN. I stated that, and that is a fact, sir. We will prove it. 

Mr. Jenkins. Did you or did you not tell me who was present on 
that occasion ? 

Mr. CoHN. On November 17? 

]Mr. Jenkins. Right. 

Mr. CoiiN. I believe I told you some of the people who were pres- 
ent. I might have told you all of the people who were present. 

Mr. Jenkins. Did you or did you not tell me that you had docu- 
mentary evidence in the form of a photograph to substantiate that 
statement ? 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Jenkins, I wonder if we could do it this way : Could 
I give you my recollection as to exactly what I did do ? 

Mr. Jenkins. I think that would be fine, and it would shorten the 
inquiry. You may proceed to do so. 

Mr. CoHN. Thank you, sir. 

As I recall, I told you with reference to the particular charges about 
threats that I had supposedly made to Mr. Stevens concerning Private 
Schine with regard to improper inducements and persuasions that had 
been attempted by Schine himself and others in his behalf. I told you, 
sir, I believe, that I thought very substantial proof of the bad faith of 
Mr. Stevens in making those charges now was the fact that long after 
the threats had supposedly been made, long after these inducements 
and persuasions had supposedly been made, Mr. Stevens was not only 
most solicitous of Private Schine but was in his company, not only 
once but twice, and had asked that he be photographed with Private 
Schine. That is what I told you, sir, and that is the fact. 

I told you specifically that on November 6 when Mr. Stevens invited 
all of us to his office for lunch and when at that lunch he asked us to 
stop the hearing 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Cohn, I am sorry to interrupt you, but you are 
now addressing yourself to the events of November 6 in Mr. Stevens' 
office at the Pentagon. 

Mr. Cohn. I want to talk about the photograph, if I may. 

Mr. Jenkins. With respect to November 6 ? 

Mr. Cohn. Yes. 

Mr. Jenkins. As leading up to the event of November 17? 

Mr. Cohn. That is correct, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Will you confine it to the photograph alone? 

Mr. Cohn. I will, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And what was said, allegedly, by Mr. Stevens on that 
occasion? 

Mr. Cohn. I will, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. I think that is proper. 

Mr. Cohn. Surely. 

On November 6, Mr. Stevens had invited Senator ISrcCarthy, Mr. 
Carr, myself, and IMr. Schine, who was then in the Army, to lunch at 
his office. Mr. Schine did not come because he did not care to come. 



278 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

He declined the invitation. When we arrived there, there was a pLace 
set for him at the table and Mr. Stevens expressed great regret and 
faid 

Mr. Jenkins. Now, Mv. Cohn, just with reference to the photo- 
graph. I must insist that you are going beyond the scope of the 
inquiry. 

Mr. CoiiN. With reference to the photograph, Mr. Stevens said: 

One reason I am particularly sorry Dave is not here is that a couple of the 
photographers wanted to take a picture of him and me, of Dave Schine and myself, 
and I wanted to have that picture taken. 

Mr. Jenkins. Is that all that was said on November 6 with reference 
to a photograph ? 

Mr. CoHN. That is all with reference to the photograph. 

Mr. Jenkins. Passing to November 17. 

Mr. CoiiN. Very well, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. I will ask you whether or not you told me that you 
had documentary evidence in the form of a photograph of Mr. Stevens 
and Mr. Schine corroborating your statement to me that JNIr. Stevens 
requested his photograph be taken with Schine. Is that correct? 

Mr. CoHN. I told you, sir, that as far as I knew there was a picture 
of Mr. Stevens and Private Schine taken on November 17. There 
was, and there is. 

Mr. Jenkins. Did I ask you to produce that photograph to me prior 
to my cross-examination of the Secretary of the Army? 

Mr. CoiiN. I believe before you did that, Mr. Jenkins, you asked 
me to explain to you the circumstances under which that photograph 
was taken. I believe, sir, I then told you — and if I maj- — 

Mr. Jenkins. Did or not you tell me it was taken on that occasion 
at the request of the Secretary of the Army ? 

Mr. CuiiN. I said that then, sir, and I say that now; and so will 
other witnesses, 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Cohn, was the photograph introduced yesterday 
delivered to me by you or a member of your staff prior to my cross- 
examination of the Secretary? 

Mr, CoiiN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins, Was anything ever said to me up to this time about 
any person being cut out of that photograph ? 

Mr. CoiiN. No, sir, I do not think anything ever was said to you 
about any person being cut out of that photograph. I would like to 
tell you, in the interest of accuracy, exactly Avhat was said and exactly 
what was done. 

Mr. Jenkins. You may do so. 

Mr. CoHN. All right, fine. 

I told you, sir, after I described the November 6 incident in which 
Mr. Stevens expressed regret that Mr, Schine did not accept his in- 
vitation, stating as one reason that he wanted his photograph taken, 
that on November 17 when Mr. Stevens flew down with us to Fort Dix 
to see Mr. Schine that as we were getting off the plane there were a 
couple of Army johotographers. Mr. Stevens said they were Air 
Force photographers. They very well might have been, sir. There 
were a couple of military photographers, let's say, who were waiting 
at the plane. Private Schine was waiting there, and so was General 
Eyan. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 279 

I believe I mentioned to yon tlmt Colonel Bradley was there, that 
Colonel LaVelle was there. I believe I mentioned to yon, sir, that 
Colonel Bradley will be one of the people we will call as'a witness for 
us in this proceedin<^. I stated to you that as we got off the plane 
and these photographers stepped up, Senator McCarthy said that Ave 
had to leave for Boston very soon and as far as he was concerned he 
did not want any pictures taken ; he wanted to get right inside and 
start working. 

At that point Mr. Stevens walked over to Private Schine and said, 
"This is a picture I would like to have. It is one I have w\anted, so 
let's have it taken now."' 

I heard that, Senator McCarthy heard that, and Mr. Carr heard 
that. A picture was thereupon taken. 

I believe you asked me, sir, whether or not such a picture was in 
existence. 1 believe I told you that I thought that it was, at which 
point I contacted Private Schine. Private Schine said "Yes," there 
had been such a picture in existence; that he had had it framed on 
the wall of his office until recent events, at which time I believe it was 
taken down. 

I asked if he could get that. He said he thought he could. He 
went up to New York. He procured that picture. He brought it 
down. I did not see it, and I might say to you, sir, I did not know 
whether Colonel Bradley was standing in the background or not. 
As I think back on it, I think that there were 3 or 4 pictures that 
were taken on that day. I think Mr. Adams was in a couple of the 
pictures. 

Now, Mr. Schine sent that picture down here. It was given to 
some members of the staff. They took it downstairs to have copies 
of the picture made. Copies of the picture were made. One of the 
members of the staff askecl me what to do with it. I told him to send 
a copy of the picture of Stevens and Schine up to Mr. Jenkins, a 
blown-up copy. That was done. 

I now find on inquiry of a member of the staff that they saAV some 
third person who was not recognizable and was not recognized stand- 
ing to the side; that Mr. Stevens and Mr. Schine were facing each 
other and looking at each other. There was a third person standing 
on the side and they thought that that person had no relevancy, had 
nothing to do with it, and that the picture wanted was the picture of 
Stevens and Schine. That is what was blown up, that is what was sent 
up to you. I did not see it before it was sent up. It was sent up. If 
Mr. Stevens wants to establish that Colonel Bradley was standing to 
the side, I remember he was at the side of the plane as we arrived 
as the commanding officer of the field and that Mr. Adams was stand- 
ing next to Colonel Bradley. I think, sir, that is perfectly correct 
and proper, and we are very glad to have that in the record. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Colin, let me interrupt you if I may, please. 

Mr. CoHN. Surely. 

Mr. Jenkins. The point of inquiry at this time particularly is this : 
Is not the picture about which I cross-examined the Secretary j^ester- 
day the picture that was delivered to me by your staff? 

Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir. It was a blowup. It was not the original. 

Mr. Jenkins. A blowup. Was not anything ever said to me about 
that picture having been edited or a third person who I believed you 
referred to as Colonel Bradley — — 



280 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr. CoHN. Yes. 

JNIr. Jenkins. Bein^j omitted from the picture ? 

Mr. CoHN, Mr. Jenkins, no, sir; it was not said to you by me, cer- 
tainly, because I did not know it and I did not see it. Furthermore 

Mr. Jenkins. And in your discussion with me you told me as I 
remember, ISIr. Cohn, and correct me if I am wrong, I ask you the 
question : That you did have this picture of Schine and the Secretary 1 

Mr. CoiiN, That is right. 

Mr. Jenkins. Which would be delivered to me? 

JNIr. CoHN. Sure. 

Mr. Jenkins. For the purposes of introduction as proof in this 
case ? 

Mr. CoiiN. That is right and I did not tell you, sir, that Colonel 
Jiradley was standing to the side of it and I did not know" it until 
now, and I think it makes not the slightest bit of difference, sir; and 
1 would like it very clearly noted on the record that this is apicture 
whether Colonel Bradley is standing to the side or not. This is a pic- 
ture of Secretary Stevens and JNIr. Schine looking at each other, taken 
on an occasion when Mr. Stevens flew down to see Mr. Schine after 
he claims he had been threatened and improperly persuaded and in- 
duced, and that the picture of Mr. Stevens and Schine was taken 
at the request of Mr. Stevens. 

Mr. Jenkins. You have already stated that Mr. Cohn, and it is 
repetitious, and those are all of the q.uestions I care to ask you. And on 
the subject of this picture alone of November 17, the members of this 
committee will perhaps now desire to ask you further questions. 

IMr. CoHN. I Avill be glad to answer any question that any member 
of the committee wants to ask. 

Senator Mundt. I have just one question. Is the original picture 
which we now have before us, what you call a blowup, the original 
picture in your possession or can you produce it ? 

]\Ir. CoHN. No, but I am sure we can. I have an awful lot of papers, 
and stuff to attend to and it is not in my possession, but I would say 
this : I am sure it is under my control, to the extent that we can get 
members of the staff — it must be around someplace, and I am sure 
we can get that up here. 

Senator Mundt. So that it can be produced ? 

Mr. CoHN. As a matter of fact I would like to do this: I would 
like to supply the original picture plus all of the blowups which were 
made, from which the one sent up to Mr. Jenkins was selected, and 
everything we got and everything we have now. 

Senator Mundt. I am sure the committee will be happy to see what- 
ever pictures are available, but among them, we would like to see 
the original from which this was made. 
Mr. CoHN. That will be supplied. 

Senator Mundt. Very well. Senator Dirksen has notified the Chair 
that he had to go over to the Supreme Court to stand up with a con- 
stituent being sworn in today, and so we will go next to Senator Potter. 
Or Senator McClellan. It wasn't Senator Dirksen's time at all, it was 
Senator McClellan's. 

Senator JNIcClellan. Roy, I just want to ask you, if at the tinie 
counsel yesterday was questioning Secretary Stevens trying to elicit 
from him that at his own request he had had his picture taken with 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 281 

]\Ir. Schine alone, did you then know that the picture that was on 
exhibition and being made a part of tlie testimony was taken out of a 
group picture and not a picture of Mr. Stevens and Mr. Schine alone? 
i)id you know that yourself yesterday when those questions were 
being asked? 

Mr. Conx. Xo, sir, and as a matter of fact I did not even catch the, 
word "alone*' put in there by Mr. Jenkins. I did not hear that word 
and I did not catch that, Senator McClellan. 

Senator I\IcClellan. Well, was not the purpose of the picture, 
and your producing it, and making it available to counsel for the 
l)urpose of substantiating your statement that ]\Ir. Stevens had re- 
quested that he and Schine had their picture taken alone together? 

Mr. CoiiN. Xo, sir, and I don't believe, and I hope Mr. Jenkins will 
bear me out in this, that I ever used the word "alone." And I might 
say I don't think the fact that Colonel Bradley is standing to the side 
changes the thing one iota. But I don't believe I ever used the word 
"alone'' to Mr. Jenkins or anyone else. 

My recollection was. Senator McClellan, and is, that Mr. Stevens 
wanted a picture of himself and Mr. Schine, and I don't believe that 
he excluded from the picture or asked to have excluded from the pic- 
ture any of the other people present. 

If it happens that Colonel Bradley, who was standing next to the 
plane, was to the side of the picture, or wdiether possibly Mr. Adams 
was next to him. that might very well be so, sir, and I don't deny it 
for a minute nor do I attach any significance to it. 

Senator McClellan. The point is, as the picture was presented yes- 
terday, it was to corroborate the allegation and the question that had 
been asked Secretary Stevens with respect to him wanting his picture 
taken alone with Mr. Schine. 

Mr. CoHN. Senator McClellan • 

Senator McClellan. Now, at the time the picture was presented, 
counsel interrogated Mr. Stevens obviously under that impression. 

Now, did you give him that impression that it was a picture of the 
two taken alone ? 

Mr. CoHN. No, the impression which I gave him, I hope, which is 
•what the facts as I knew them were, was that there was a picture of 
Secretary Stevens and Mr. Schine taken at the request of Secretary 
Stevens. 

I don't believe Mr. Jenkins ever asked me, and I don't know why 
he should have, "Was anybody else standing to the side, or did Sec- 
retary Stevens ask that everybody else step out of it ?" 

It was a picture of Secretary Stevens and Mr. Schine next to each 
other, looking at each other. I believe that was as far as I went, be- 
cause that is as far as I knew, sir. 

Senator IMcClellax. Well, you recognize that, as it was presented 
yesterday, in testimony elicited from examination by counsel, 
the testimony as of yesterday did not present the facts as they are. 
Do you recognize that ? 

Mr. CoHN. Sir, in that Colonel Bradley was standing to the side, 
and the fact that ]Mr. Adams might be standing next to them, yes. 

Senator McClellan. Well, that was not a picture of two people 
alone. 

Mr. CoiiN. Sir 



282 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator McClellax. It ^yas a group picture, and the picture of these 
two standing side by side and loolving at each other, as you say, 
has been removed, as you now know and I think can see, from a group 
picture. 

Mr. CoiiN. Sir, you say a group picture. I think it shows Colonel 
Bradley standing to the side, facing them sideways. 

Senator McClellan. It also shows someone else standing next to 
him, a fourth man there. 

JSIr. Coiix. Who was probably Mr. Adams. 

Senator McClellan. Probably Mr. Adams. 

]\Ir. CoHX. That might very well be so, sir, and in answering your 
question 

Senator McClellax. At any rate, the picture yesterday was a pic- 
ture taken from the other picture here, that has been presented this 
morning, and you recognize it as such, do you ? 

Mr. CoHX. Senator McClellan, I recognize it as exactly as it is so 
far as we have it this morning. If a further picture is produced 
showing Mr. Adams or someone else as the person whose sleeve has 
been cut off, I will recognize it as that, and all I represented, sir, and 
all I know is that I heard, as did others, Mr. Stevens say one picture 
he would like is a picture of himself and Mr. Schine, and'l don't recall 
him asking other people to step out of the picture, and I know that a 
picture was taken of Mr. Stevens and Mr. Schine next to each other 
and looking at each other. 

And if the thing shows Colonel Bradley standing to the side, so be 
it, sir. Of course, whatever the picture shows, that is what it is. I 
did not use the word "alone," sir, and I don't think I could have, 
because I had not seen the original, and I still don't think I have seen 
what might be the full original. 

Senator McClellax. What did you see ? 

Mr. Coiix. All I saw. Senator, is this: I saw in Dave Schine's 
office sometime ago, I don't know how long ago — I would say months 
ago — a picture of Secretary Stevens and Private Schine, period. 
That is all I had ever seen, and that is what I told Mr. Jenkins I 
had seen. 

Now, if you want to ask me whether or not Colonel Bradley was also 
in that picture, standing to the side, I don't know, sir, he might 
have been. 

Senator McClellax. Well, the picture you saw in Mr. Sclvne's 
office that you speak of, was it a group picture, and was it this picture 
of the group, or was it just as you presented it here ? 

Mr. CoHX. I don't know, sir. 

Senator McClellax. You don't remember ? 

Mr. CoHX. Here is what I remember, Senator McClellan : I remem- 
ber Secretary Stevens and Private Schine standing next to each other, 
looking at each other, and I cannot, sir, tell you whether Colonel 
Bradley or anyone else was in that picture or not, and I know you 
don't want me to undertake more than I can tell you. 

Senator McClellax. No; I am just testing your memory. 

Mr. CoHx. My memory is, sir, that it included Stevens and Schine, 
and that is my memory, and I cannot tell you. 

Senator McClellax. And no one else ? 

Mr. CoHx. I can't say that, sir ; I don't know. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 283 

Senator McClellax. You can state what your memory is. 

Mr. CoHN. JNIy memory is Stevens and Scliine, and my memory is 
I don't know whether there was somebody 

Senator McClellan. If you don't know, then you don't have 
memory about it. 

Mr. Coiix. I have no memory of that, sir, whether there was 
somebody else in it or not, I don't know. 

Senator Muni/t. Senator Potter. 

Senator PcrrER. Roy, did you see the photograph when it was 
sent to Washington ? 

Mr. CoHX. Ko; I did not. 

Senator Potter. In other words, you didn't see the photograph 
until the blowup was here ? 

Mr. Coiix. I don't recall seeing it, and I am not even sure I saw 
the blown-up photograph. 

Senator Potter. I have no further questions. 

Senator Jackson. Mr. Cohn, about when did you see the picture 
referred to here for the first time ? 

JMr. CoHX. As I remember, Senator Jackson — which picture? 

Senator Jackson. I am referring to the picture that you gave to 
Mr. Jenkins, the counsel. 

Mr. CoiiN. I did not give it to him, sir. I caused it to be sent up 
to him. 

Senator Jackson. You requested that he present it in evidence, 
did you not ? 

Mr. Coiix. Yes, sir, I supplied that at the request; I told — no. Sena- 
tor Jackson, if I can explain this — I did not suggest it be presented in 
evidence. 

Mr. Jenkins asked me if there was a picture of Secretary Stevens 
and Mr. Scliine, and I said that there was, and of course, there is. He 
asked me if I could undertake to get that and furnish that to him 
and I was very happy to comply with that request, as I am of any 
request Mr. Jenkins made of me. 

Senator Jackson. The original idea for this picture came from 
Mr. Jenkins ^ 

Mr. CoHN. I wouldn't even want to say that. We were talking 
about the events of November 6, and November 17, and when the fact 
of the picture came up, I don't remember whether I said to Mr. Jen- 
kins, "Let me get the picture, and I am going to suggest you put it in," 
or whether jNIr. Jenkins said to me "Let us get the picture and I would 
like to use it at the hearing or you use it at the hearing." 

Senator Jackson. Wasn't the idea of your conference with Mr. 
Jenkins on the subject of the picture, to show that a picture had been 
taken with Mr. Schine, Private Schine, and the Secretary of the Army 
alone ? 

Mr. CoiiN. Xo, sir. 

Senator Jackson. You don't think Mr. Jenkins 

Mr. Cohn. You asked me a question, and if I might answer it, sir; 
I never used the word "alone" because I could not have. My recol- 
lection was, and my recollection is of a picture of Secretary Stevens 
and Private Schine. That is what my recollection was, sir, and that 
is what my recollection is. And I could not have told him then 
whether Colonel Bradley was standing to the side, or whether Colonel 
LaVelle was or not because I did not know. 



284 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator Jackson. Don't you tliink it was important yesterday 
when Mr. Stevens testified under oath that he had no recollection 
about having it taken alone, and Mr. Jenkins asked and it became 
very material to this question at issue whether this picture was taken 
alone or with someone else, and when it was brought out here in the 
hearings at which you were present that the question was being put 
to Mr. Stevens that this — do you recall a picture had been taken with 
]\rr. Schine alone? And the Secretary couldn't answer the question. 
And then the picture was handed over to him, showing the two alone. 

Now, don't you think in the interest of keei)ing the record straight, 
so that there couldn't be any dispute, that you should have called at- 
tention to the fact that this picture might not be complete? 

Mr. CoHN-. Sir, I think that I have explained the circumstances, and 
if I might repeat them for you in response to your question. I did 
not catch the word "alone", and I did not attach any significance to 
it then, and I don't recall even hearing it. 

1 recall questioning about a picture of Secretary Stevens and Private 
Schine. If I had known that there were other persons on that picture, 
and if other people had known there were other persons on the pic- 
ture, or if they had known Colonel Bradley was there, or I had the 
other picture with me, I would have been glad to supply that. 

Now, Senator Jackson, in answer to your question, you say "It is 
important in keeping the record straight," and I might say I think 
since you ask me, I think it is completely unimportant, whether or 
not Colonel Bradley is standing to the side while this picture is taken 
or not. That is not for me to judge. 

Senator Jacksok. That is for the committee to judge. 

JVIr. CoHisr. Of course, it is, sir. 

Senator Jackson. But don't you think that INIr. Jenkins very right- 
fully asked the question of Mr. Stevens: "Did you have a picture 
taken alone with Private Schine," and just let me finish my question, 
because the picture that had been handed to Mr. Jenkins showed the 
two of them together? 

JNIr. CoiiN. That is right, sir. 

Senator Jackson. Isn't that a fair question for you to answer? 

Senator McCarthy. A point of order. Mr. Chairman. May I sug- 
gest that the question asked by Mr, Jenkins be read into the record, 
from the bottom of page 433. In fairness to the witness the question 
should be read. 

Senator Mundt. The Senator will have 10 minutes under the rules, 
and he may do that at that time. Senator Jackson wants to use 
his time. 

Senator Jackson. Who gave you the picture? 

Mr. CoHN. May I answer your last question first, Senator? 

Senator McCarthy. Please. 

Senator Mundt. What is your point of order? 

Senator McCarthy. My point of order is that the question as asked 
does not contain the worcl "alone." Later on the word was used. I 
think in fairness to the witness and to keep the record straight, Sen- 
ator Jackson should read the question as asked starting on page 433. 

Senator Jackson. Since when did I ever suggest to other members 
of this committee or witnesses what questions they ought to ask? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 285 

Senator jSIuxdt. The Chair Tvill overrule the point of order. It 
does not deal with relevanov, and Senator McCarthy will receive 10 
minutes very shortly, at which time he may read the question. 

Senator Jackson ? _ 

Senator Jackson, "When did you receive the picture that you ar- 
ran<red to be turned over to Mr. Jenkins? 

Mr. Coiix. Before I answer that, sir, would you like the answer to 
your last question, which you did not give me an opportunity to 
answer^ 

Senator Jacksox. One of the principals interceded at that point, 
and I cannot recall. 

Senator JIiIundt. "Will the reporter read the question. It will not 
come out of Senator Jackson's time. 

(Whereupon, the reporter read the question referred to, as re- 
corded above.) 

Mr. Coirjsr. Isn't that a fair question for me to answer? I say it is, 
and I would like to answer it, sir. 

Seiiator Jackson. That is all I asked, ''Yes'' or "jSTo." I don't think 
anything else beyond that is responsive to the question. 

iVIr. Jenkins. The witness has a right to answer the question, and 
then give such explanation as he thinks proper. Every witness has 
that primary right, of course. 

Senator Jackson. I am not trying to cut down his answer. 

Go ahead. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Cohn, you may answer the question. 

Mr. CoHN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 

I think it was a very fair question of Mr. Jenkins. I think the pur- 
pose of my conversation witli Mr. Jenkins was to show that Secretary 
Stevens had had his picture taken. . 

Senator Symington. May I interrupt the witness ? 

You said it was a very bad question ? 

Mr. CoHN. Fair question. 

Senator Symington. Thank you. 

Mr. CoiiN. I think it was a very fair question for Mr. Jenkins to 
ask, for this reason : The purpose of the discussion between Mr. Jen- 
kins and myself on this matter was whether or not, after these threats 
and inducements had supposedly or allegedly been made, Mr. Stevens 
as Secretary of the Army, had a picture taken with Private Schine 
down at the Maguire Airfield, and the circumstances which I de- 
scribed, and I assumed that was the purpose of Mr. Jenkins' interro- 
gation and, sir, I don't think that that fact is materially altered by 
Colonel Bradley's standing to the side or not. The fact remains that 
Mr. Stevens and Mr. Schine are looking at each other and facing each 
other, and that is that. That is the best way I can answer your ques- 
tion. 

Senator Jackson. !Mr. Cohn, when did you receive this j)icture that 
was introduced in evidence yesterday? 

Mr. CoHN. I did not receive it, sir. 

Senator Jackson. "Who received it ? 

Mr. Cohn. I don't know. I can find out, I am sure. 

Senator Jackson. How did you know about it ? 

Mr. CoHN. How did I know about the picture ? I knew about it in 
this way : Mr. Jenkins made the request, as he made a number of other 



286 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

requests. I made a list which I think contains some 47 items which 
are parceled out among various members of the staff, I would say 2 or 
3 of them. Then they go and try to get the material. If it then comes 
time for the picture and Mr. Jenkins wants the picture, somebody in 
the office would say, "Get the picture of Schine and Stevens up to the 
office of Mr. Jenkins," and the picture will be sent up to the office of 
Mr. Jenkins. 

I did not see it. I did not bring the picture up there, sir. 

Senator Jackson. How did you know who cut out part of the pic- 
ture? 

Mr. CoHN. I don't know that anybody cut out part of the picture. 

Senator Jacksox. Do you know Avhether the original negative came 
to the office ? 

Mr. CoHN. No, sir ; I don't. _ 

Senator Jackson. Or the original print? 

Mr. CoHN. I do not. 

Senator Jackson. "Who would know ? 

Mr. CoHN. I am sure we could find that out. 

Senator Jackson. Who in your staff would know ? 

Mr. CoHN. Frank Carr might know. Jim Juliana might know. 
"VYe will be very glad to make diligent inquiry on that. 

Senator Jackson. You don't know Avho sent it over to the photo- 
stating department? 

Mr. CoHN, No, sir; I do not. I have never been in the photostatic 
department in my life, nor was I on this occasion, nor do I know what 
went on there, sir. I am sorry. I wish I could be more helpful to 
you on that. 

Senator Jackson. That is all. 

Senator Mundt. Have I called on you. Senator Potter? I think 
I have. 

Senator Dworshak? 

Senator Dworshak. Mr. Cohn, who arranged the plane trip on 
November 7 to Fort Dix? 

Mr. CoHN. It was arranged at the insistence of Secretary Stevens. 
He wanted to go down to Fort Dix and say hello to Dave Schine with 
us, and he wanted us — and afterward it Avas rather embarrassing, as 
a matter of fact. We got out of the plane and then he didn't get back 
in. He said, "I want you people to take this plane and go to Boston. 
I am going to get back to Washington some other way." 

Afterward Mr. Adams told me on that day Mr. Stevens would have 
done anything on God's earth to try to make us happy, because of 
course that was the day when he was trying to get us to stop the hear- 
ings which were scheduled to begin the following Tuesday. So we took 
Secretary Stevens' plane and went to Dix, and went from Dix on to 
Boston. 

Senator Dworshak. Who invited Private Schine to meet the plane 
at Fort Dix? 

Mr. CoHN. I don't know. I imagine that was arranged for by 
Secretary Stevens. The circumstances of our meeting Private Schine 
were that prior to commencing certain hearings in Boston, we desired 
to obtain from Private Schine information which he had, sir, pertain- 
ing to the investigation which we were about to open in Boston. For 
that reason we went down there to see him, and we talked to him about 
that, and that alone. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATIOlSr 287 

Senator Dworsiiak. IMr. Colm, Private Scliine was already drafted 
and lie was in the Army ? 

Mr. CoHN. Yes. 

Senator Dworshak. Was lie at that time connected with this sub- 
committee staflP? 

]Mr. CoHX. No, sir ; he was not. 

Senator Dwof.shak. It seems very peculiar to me that the Secretary 
of the Army or members of this committee should arrange a confer- 
ence with a man in the Army as a private who was in no way con- 
nected with the staff of tliis committee. Why was that done? 

]\[r. CoHx. That was done for this reason, Senator Dworshak: He 
had but recently left the staff of the committee. He had been one of 
the people primarily responsible for the gatherino; of information, 
the interviewing of witnesses, and the conducting of interrogations of 
witnesses in connection with this very investigation. 

Senator Dworshak. Over what period of time was he interrogating 
witnesses ? 

- Mr. Conisr. He was interrogating witnesses over a period of some, 
I would say, 8 or 9 months, sir. 

Senator Dworstiak. Had he been continuing with that work up to 
the time he was drafted? 

Mr. CoHN. He continued with that work up until the very day that 
he was drafted. I might say there were days prior to the time that he 
was drafted when, just prior to the time, when Senator McCarthy, 
Mr. Carr, and myself were all necessarily absent from the scene of 
the interrogation, and jMr. Schine 

Senator Dworshak. "Was Private Schine an indispensable member 
of this staff whose services were so essential that the staff could not 
function without relying upon the services and the information which 
only Private Schine had available? 

]Mr. CoHX. Senator Dworshak, I don't happen to be one of those 
who hold to the indispensable-man theory about anybody on this earth. 
I think everything goes along if not a single one of us was here, since 
time began. I don't think Private Schine is or was indispensable. I 
could best say it this way : He served the committee for almost a year 
without receiving any compensation. He did an able and successful 
job which resulted in the saving of millions of dollars to the taxpayers 
of this country and to the rooting out of Communists. 

Senator Dworshak. That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. 

]Mr. CoHN. That is my opinion, sir. I think I can back that up 
with the opinions of others. 

Senator Dworshak. I didn't ask you to do that. Please answer 
the question. Don't make a speech at this time. 

Mr. CoHX. I would say he is not indispensable. I would say he 
is a valuable staff member who did excellent work and had valuable 
information. 

Senator Dworshak. When did you have the first intimation that 
David Schine might be drafted into the military service? 

Mr. CoHX. I would say^that was around the summer or early fall. 

Senator Dworshak. And he was drafted when ? 

Mr. CoHX. I believe the date of his induction was November 3. 

Senator Dworshak. And how many months intervened between 
summer and November 3 ? 



288 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr. CoHN. It depends on where yon start. If you want to start 
witli August, you would have August, September, and October. You 
would have 3 montlis. 

Senator Dworshak. And David Schine would continue to investi- 
gate on behalf of this committee and the staff, and was then consulted 
on November 17, even though it had been known early in the summer 
that he was to be called into military service? 

Mr. CoHN. He had been consulted as recently as the last 2 days, 
sir. There is a great deal of information he has which we need and 
which I think perfectly properly for the proper operation of our 
investigation. 

Senator Dworshak. That is again your opinion. Who has been 
engaged on the commitee to replace INIr. Schine? 

Mr. CoiiN. There has been nobody engaged to replace him as an 
unpaid consultant. I think that after his experience we can have a 
hard time getting anyone else to come down for nothing, sir. 

Senator Dworshak. Then it might be advisable for this committee 
to suspend its operations and the investigation of subversive influ- 
ences in the Department of the Army — would you think that would 
be a reasonable step to take ? 
Mr. CoHN. I think it would be a ridiculous step to take, sir. 
Senator Dworshak. You do think that this subcommittee and its 
sIrtT can function without the services of Private Schine ? 

Mr. Conisr. I think it can function without the servicesof Private 
Schine. I think it can function without the services of Chief Counsel 
Cohn. The only thing I hope is that the services devoted by both of 
tliera have done some little bit to help in what I think is the reason 
I am down here, the very important work of this committee in getting 
Communists and security risks out of the vital war plant and defense 
industries and installations of this Nation. 

Senator Dworshak. You are to be commended for that objective, 
of course, Mr. Cohn, but we will asume every member of this com- 
mittee, every Member of Congress, and every member of the staff, 
and all real Americans, are interested in achieving that same goal. 
]Mr. Cohn. I have no doubt of that, sir. 

Senator Dworshak. You think, then, that this committee staff can 
function without the services of Private Schine ? 

Mr. Cohn. I think the committee staff can function without the 
services of Private Schine, or any one member of the staff now. 
)¥hether it can function as successfully as I hope it has, that might 
be another question. 

Senator Dw^orshak. You say that Mr. Schine was not paid any- 
thing for his services by the committee; wasn't that a peculiar cir- 
cumstance? 

Mr. CoiiN. It might be a peculiar circumstance. When he came 
down here originally he was asked about financial arrangements, 
and he said he considered it a privilege to serve. And he took a 
leave of absence from his business and devoted a good deal of time 
and money to doing what he believed was valuable work in rooting 
out Communists who had infiltrated in this country. And he did 

that work for nothing, sir, and 

Senator Dworshak. That answers it. Thank you. 
Have any other Americans been employed by the staff without com- 
pensation ? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 289 

Mr. CoHN. Not on a full-time basis by our staff. But I know 
thoufrh, sir, that the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee, which 
I think has Iseen doing splendid work, has from time to time used 
people such as David Schme, as unpaid consultants, people who they 
could get to devote their services for nothing. 

Senator Dworsttak. Do you think if Private Schine is now in 
the military service that this committee should continue to utilize 
him to the fullest extent, his knowledge, his information, and his 
services concerning subversive elements ? 

Mr. CoTiN. Xo. I would say this, Senator Dworshak: T would say 
that particularly at the beginning stages, whenever possible, in order 
to function effectively and get the benefit of information which only 
he has. 

Senator Dworshak. Why does he alone have that information ? 

Mr. CoiTN. T su]5pose he alone had that information because he 
alone worked on certain matters when he was with the subcommittee. 

Senator Dworshak. At a time when it was known that there was 
a good possibility of his being drafted into the military service? 

Mr. CoHN. I "think well before that, sir. And may I give you 
some examples of that ? Or if this is not the time to go into that — I 
can give vou many examples, and I can produce documentation to 
show it, sir. 

Senator Dworshak. I was not a member of that subcommittee so 
I am not acquainted with the details. But it does seem very peculiar 
to me that a man should, any man, or any person, should be employed 
on the staff of thi'? committee without compensation, whose services 
were almost indispensable, because if he were taken away from the 
staff then it might seriously affect or jeopardize the Avork of the 
committee. 

Do you think that that has been the result of Private Schine's 
induction ? 

Mr. Cohn. Of Laving seriously jeopardized the work of this com- 
mittee, I can't evaluate that, sir. I think that the thing that seriously 
jeopardized the work of this committee is the fact that we have been 
out of business 2 months when we have 130 cases against Communists 
in war plants which we can't do because of these hearings. 

Senator Dworshak. I agree with you on that point. And I think 
the American people have reached the point where they want action, 
whether it be in the Department of the Army, or on the part of any 
congressional committee. In these crucial times, we have not or 
should not have any time to use on any extraneous activities. 

Everybody wants to root out and expose these subversive elements 
in the Depart oient of the Army, or any other agency of the Federal 
Government, and T think the American people are going to demand 
action forthwith. 

]Mr. Con]sr. My only prayer is that that be done and that that be 
done fast. Senator Dworshak. 

Senator Dworshak, That is all. 

Mr. CoHisr. I thi nk that when this committee gets back to business 
and can root out these Communists, whether I am here, or Schine is 
here, or anybody else, the public interest will be served. And I think 
that that is what we are all interested in. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair suggests we run a little beyond 12 : 30 
this morning so that j^erhaps we can conclude with Mr. Cohn. And 



290 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

we have Mr. Symington, Mr. Welch, and Mr. McCarthy to be heard. 

Senator Symington. Roy, several times the question has come up 
of the 130 people who are in the plants and the delay getting them out 
of the plants. 

Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. Why don't we turn them over as a committee 
to one of the other committees that could handle it ? 

Mr. CoHN. I could think of a lot of reasons for that. Senator. First 
of all, we have developed the cases, our staff is familiar with them, 
and our staff is ready to proceed with those matters. 

We were all set to go on those, as the committee was advised, when 
j\rr. Stevens and Mr. Adams tried to put us out of business. 

Senator Symington. Let me ask you this question : Have you ever 
advised the committee, or has anybody advised the committee, about 
these 130 people ? 

Mr. CoHN. Certainly, sir. If I might be specific on that. Senator 
Symington, I believe Senator McCarthy — and the reason I say this 
I happened to be there — I heard Senator McCarthy telephone some 
members of the committee. And I believe, sir, Senator McCarthy 
wrote a formal letter to the members of the committee, calling the 
attention of the existence of these cases to the committee and the fact 
tliat he had been stopped from exposing these Communists. 

Senator Symington. Will you make a copy of that for the record ? 

Mr. CoHN. I am sure we will. 

Senator Symington. Now let me ask you this question 

Senator McCarthy. If I may say so, Senator Symington's office 
has received a copy. 

Senator Symington. I thank the Senator. 

Now let me get or make this point about the picture. You saw the 
picture in New York, and you can't remember whether or not there 
were more than two ? 

Mr. CoHN. There is no point of my guessing, sir ; I remember Secre- 
tary Stevens 

Senator Symington. I think that your lack of memory is under- 
standable. I doubt if I would remember whether there were more 
than two. 

Mr. CoHN. I remember — let me put it this way, if I may — with no 
reflection on Colonel Bradley, I remember the two people who I 
knew and who were important to me, and I remember Secretary 
Stevens and Private Schine standing there and smiling at each other, 
and that is all. 

Senator Symington. You were at Fort INIonmouth yourself, weren't 
you, in this meeting ? 

Mr. CoHN. Fort Dix ; yes, and I was there. 

Senator Symington. There were a lot of pictures taken, and you 
can't remember whether it was 2 or 4 or what it might be ? 

Mr. CoHN. No, sir. They could very well find one of me. 

Senator Symington. As the result of the suggestion of Mr. Jenkins, 
or as a result of your suggestion, whichever way it came, this picture 
was obtained from Mr. Schine ; is that right ? 

Mr. CoiiN. I don't even know if it was obtained from him ; it was 
obtained from his office. 

Senator Symington. Now, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask that a 
list of all the people involved with this j)icture, be furnished from the 



SPECIAL IN\'ESTIGATION 291 

beginniiiir ri<rlit through to the time it went into the hands of counsel, 
and that that be made a part of the record. 

]\Ir. Jexkixs. Senator, I expected to ask the photographer who took 
that picture to furnish that information. 

Senator Symingto?^-. I woukl also like to ask that the original film 
be made a part of the committee record. 

]\Ir. CoHN. I am certainly very agreeable. 

Senator Stmingtok. Xoav, Mr. Chairman, there liaA'e been a good 
many references to ?.lr. Adams as being possibly the fourth man. I 
have been looking at the picture and I can't tell from the shoulders and 
the hand and the hat which is about all that is there, whether it is 
3klr. Adams, but the average man knows about his hat. 

I think we might clear that up and ask Mr. Adams if he was the 
fourth man next to Colonel Bradley. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair will have to rule if that question is to 
be asked ; we will have to put Mr. Adams under oath at this time. 

Senator Symixgtox. Well, I imagine he would be willing to be put 
under oath to give th.e committee the truth. 

;Mr. CoHN. I don't know the answer to the question, Senator Syming- 
ton. 

Senator Syjiixctox. But you didn't see it when it was down here ? 

Mr. CoHN. No, I don't believe I did, sir. 

Senator Symington. And you did not see it? 

Mr. CoHN. No, I don't believe I did, sir. 

Senator Symington. Then the picture was taken somewhere, and 
if there were more than two people in it, somebody cut the picture, 
is that correct ? 

]\Ir. CoHN. Yes, sir, and now here is what undoubtedly happened. 
Senator Symington. 

I asked for and I accept very full responsibility for this, and I want 
to make that clear, as between myself and Mr. Jenkins, what I asked 
for was a picture of Mr. Stevens and Private Schine, and if I had ever 
seen Colonel Bradley was standing to the side, I didn't remember it. 
I am glad that I know now, sir, because I hope remembering that we 
can call Colonel Bradley as one of our witnesses on something else. 

Senator Symington. But the picture in Mr. Schine's office is also 
going to be made a part of the record. 

Mr. CoHN. I am sure it will, and everything we have under our 
control will be made a part of the record. We then asked for the pic- 
ture to be sent down and undoubtedly any one on the staff who handled 
this or the man down in the room, when he was asked for the picture of 
Stevens and Schine, if he saw someone standing on the side who was 
not Stevens and Schine probably gave us what we asked for : Stevens 
and Schine. 

Senator Symington. You are going, or somebody is going to let us 
know who in the staff took the picture down to the photographic room, 
and whether or not they did or not cut the people in the picture. 

Mr. CoHN. Certainly, sir. 

Senator Symington. On the question as to whether or not the 
matters as to whether or not Colonel Bradley was or wasn't in the 
picture, you used the word, you didn't think it mattered one iota, 
but you weren't referring to Mr. Stevens' problem of trying to remem- 
ber whether he had or had not had a picture taken alone with Mr. 
Schine, is that right ? 



292 SPECIAL DsVESTIGATIOX 

Mr. CoHx. Senator, I understood Mr. Stevens' problem to be he 
couldn't recognize Private Schine in that picture, and that is what 
I was talking to Senator McCarthy about. I couldn't quite under- 
stand how Mr. Stevens could not recognize Private Schine. 

Senator Symington. You mentioned the question of Mr. Schine 
working for nothing. You do not in any way criticize people who 
cannot afford to work for nothing if they want to eat? 

Mr. CoiiN. Sir, I take my salary check every month, and I am not 
criticizing anybody who does not work for nothing. On the other 
hand, I do not criticize somebody who can afford to work for nothing 
and who could be paid but says, "I don't want to be paid. It is a 
privilege to do this kind of work, and I will do it for nothing." I do 
not criticize either party, sir. 

Senator Symington. I would like the record to show, Mr. Chair- 
man, that all the money that was asked for by the chairman of the 
committe was voted for by the Senate. 

Just one other question. You mentioned the fact that you thought 
there would be difficulty in getting people to come down to work for 
the committee for nothing or for salary as a result of this. 

Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. Is that right? 

Mr. CoHN. Senator Symington, I said that statement, and I made 
it advisedly. If I could give you, sir, in response to your question 
one example : Frank Carr, who is sitting close to you, sir, was head 
of security for the FBI in New York. Frank Carr made the case 
against the first-string leaders of the Communist Party, the national 
committee of the Communist Party. Frank Carr had 200 FBI agents 
working under him. I am one of those. I did not know Mr. Carr 
well, but I am one of those who went to him and asked him and 
begged him to come down with this committee as executive director. 
He refused. I had everybody I knew work on him to get him to come 
down ; and if the result of his being down here is the type of smear 
and the type of lies to which he has been subjected in this hearing 
and by this report, I certainly think that any good American is going 
to think twice before sticking his neck out in that way. 

Senator Symington. I would like to ask you another question. 
This is called the business administration. It has had a lot of fine 
businessmen come down here to work since the new administration 
went into effect. The record of Mr. Stevens was known before he 
came down. How do I think businessmen, based on these hearings, 
are going to be interested in taking jobs in the Pentagon or in other 
Government agencies ? Do you believe that the same problems which 
apply with respect to Mr. Carr and IVIr. Schine from the standpoint 
of the desirability of Washington service in these grave days will also 
apply as a result of the problems that have come up for Mr. Stevens 
since he took this job ? 

Mr. CoHN. There is one very important distinction, Senator Sym- 
ington. We did not make these charges, these smear charges against 
Mr. Stevens. He made them against us. I assume no responsibility 
in that regard. 

Senator SvivnNGTON. 1 would like for the record to say that I do 
not remember IMr. Stevens accusing any of the principals on the other 
side of blackmail or falsehood. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 293 



Mr. Coiix. ]\Ir. S3minorton, sir 



Senator Symixgtox. I he^ your ])ardon. He did accuse them of 
falsehood, but to the best of my knowledge he did not accuse them of 
blackmail. In any case, I think it is a two-way stretch. It may be 
diiUcult upon Mr. Carr and Mr. Schine, but isn't it fair to say that it 
will be difficult to get businessmen to come down to "Washington if 
this type or character of process continues? 

Mr, Coirx. All I can sa}' to j'ou on that, sir, is that we did not ini- 
tiate these smear charges. They were initiated by Mr. Stevens and by 
Mr. Adams, and not by us. I never made publicly or privately any 
statement in derogation of Mr, Stevens, and I never made any state- 
ment which could cause him to feel that a charge had been made 
against him or that he should have any reason to regret having come 
doAA-n to Washington. I might say this, sir, too 

Senator Stmixgtox. I am sorry ; I haven't much time yet. I asked 
a question, and I think you have answered it very well. 

Air. Chairman, I would like to suggest that everybody connected 
with this picture, since it left Mr. Schine's wall until it was presented 
by Mr. Jenkins as an accurate picture, be summoned before the com- 
mittee and put under oath and give exactly what his connection Avith 
the picture, if anj', was. 

Mr. CoHN. Surely, 

Senator Mundt. That will be done. Counsel has already suggested 
that Ave trace the picture down to its source and get all the facts avail- 
able as to its authenticit3\ 

Mr. CoiiN. Yes, sir. 

Senator JSIuxdt. Is that all, Senator Symington? 

Senator SY:srixGTox, That is all. 

Mr. CoHX". Mr. Chairman, I might say that we will be very glad to 
do that from our end, and I assume Mr. SteAens will do it from his 
end, because Ave do not want any question about the authenticity and 
we do not want any question about the fact that that is Secretary 
Stevens standing and smiling at Private Schine. 

Senator Muxdt. Under the rules of the hearing, I belieA'e, Mr, 
Welch, you noAv have 10 minutes if you care to avail j'ourself of them, 

Mr. AVelch. Mr. Colin, I assume 3'ou would like it understood that 
although I sit at the same table, I am not your counsel, 

]\Ir, Coiix-. There is not a statement that has been made at this hear- 
ing with AA-hich I am in more complete agreement, JNIr, Welch, al- 
though I say I am sure you are a laAvyer of great ability and maybe I 
would be fortunate if I had you as my counsel. I have no counsel 
here. Roy Colin is here speaking for E03' Colin, to give the facts. I 
liaA^e no counsel, and I feel the need of none, sir. 

Mr, Welch. In all modesty, sir, I am content that it should appear 
from my end that I am not 3'our counsel. 

Mr. CoHX. I might say that you are certainly not going to get any 
fee from me, !Mr, Welch, 

Mr. Welch. Would someone hold up what I call the big picture so 
that this witness can see it ? 

]\Ir, Cohn, you have spoken of that picture as representing Mr. 
Stevens smiling at Schine. Will you look at it noAV with me ? 

Mr. CoHX. I Avould say, sir, if I might answer it that way 

Senator Stmixgton, Could Ave have Mr. AVelch's microphone hxed? 

Mr. Welch. What is Avrong Avith it? 



294 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator Symixgton. We cannot hear you. 

Mr. Welch. That is bad. 

Senator Mundt. Will the electrician see whether the microphone 
is working in behalf of Mr. Welch ? 

Mr. Welch. I think the word is "testing." Am I now heard? 

Senator Mundt. AVill you tap it and find out? The tap is not 
taken out of your time. 

I do not believe it is working as yet. 

Mr. Welch. Once again I have to have some help from someone to 
hold up this picture. 

Mr. Cohn. Why don't we have it brought right up here? 

Mr. Welch. That is good enough. 

Mr. Cohn. Let's have it closer. 

Mr. Welch. That is good enough. 

Mr. Cohn. Mr. Welch, may I confess to a slight case of nearsighted- 
ness here, and I hope that is not nearsightedness in connection with 
my duties, but it is when it comes to these things. I would like to 
have that right up here. 

Mr. Welch. I think you have betrayed some nearsightedness. 
Have it as close as you like. 

Mr. Cohn. INIr. Welch, I might say here again, I will be very glad 
to answer your questions here. I don't think I am quite as clever as 
you are, and I am afraid I am not going to be able to answer your 
questions. 

Mr. Welch. Oh, Mr. Cohn. My question now is this: You have 
referred to that picture as showing Mr. Secretary Stevens smiling at 
Dave Schine. Are you now close enough to the picture so that you 
would like to qualify that statement ? 

Mr. CoHN. Sir, I will accept your characterization of the picture. 

Mr. Welch. It is a grim smile on Stevens' face. 

Mr. Cohn. I accept it. If you want to call Mr. Stevens' smile a 
grim smile, sir, I fully accept what you say. To me it is a picture of 
Secretary Stevens. If it is a grim smile, so be it. It is a picture of 
Private Schine. They are standing next to each other. They are 
facing each other. Their eyes are meeting. They are looking at 
each other. If the smile is grim or if it isn't grim, I know not, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Not too fast, Mr. Cohn ; not too fast. 

Mr. Stevens is looking to his right, isn't he ? 

Mr. Cohn. Well, sir 

Mr. Welch. Isn't he? You can answer that one easily. 

Mr. Cohn. Mr. Welch, do you want to imply that I am not answer- 
ing it? You asked me a question, and then you say with the implica- 
tion as though I can't answer it. 

Mr. Welch. Well, answer it. Mr. Stevens is looking to his right, 
isn't he? 

Mr. Cohn. Sir, if you will give me the chance, I will try to answer 
it. 

Mr. Welch. By all means, sir. 

Mr. Cohn. Thank you. The picture, to me, looks as though Mr. 
Stevens and Private Schine are looking at each other. 

Mr. Welch. My question was a simple one. Mr. Stevens is looking 
to his right, is he not? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 295 

Mr. CoHN". Yes, I would say he probably is looking to his right, 
and Private Schine is standing to his right. 

]Mr. "Welch. On Mr. Stevens' right are two figures, is that correct ? 

Mr. CoiiN. Yes, tliat is correct. To Mr. Stevens' riglit there are 
two figures. 

Mr. Welch. One is Private Schine? 

Mr. Conx. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And further to Mr. Stevens' right is Colonel Bradley ? 

Mr. Cohx. Standing sideways. 

Mr. Welch. It Avould take someone with clairvoj^ance to know to 
whom Secretary Stevens is looking, would it not i 

Mr. CoHX. No, sir. I don't think so. It would take somebody with 
commonsense who can look at a picture and see what is in it. 

^Ir. Welch. I think I observe on Colonel Bradley's face a faint lit- 
tle look of pleasure. Do you, sir? 

Mr. CoHX. I would say I know that Colonel Bradley had a good 
steak dinner shortly afterward. ]Maybe he was anticipating it. I do 
know that Colonel Bradley looks to me as though he, too, is looking 
at Private Schine. 

Mr. Welch. If Bradley is feeling good about a steak dinner, Schine 
must be considering a whole haunch of beef. 

Mr. CoHX. Yes, sir. and Mr. Stevens, possibly you might be right, 
the grimness on his face might have come after Senator McCarthy 
told him that hearings showing what was going on in Communist infil- 
tration in tlie Army would begin the next Tuesday. 

Mr. Welch. Had Mr. Stevens actually said to you that he wanted 
to fly that big plane over there so he could see a private in the Army ? 

Mr. CoHX. If you would like me to relate the fidl circumstances 

Mr. Welch. No. Answer my question. 

Mr. Cohx. 3Ir. Welch, I would be delighted to do so, sir. 

May I, ]Mr. Chairman ? 

Mr. Welch. Won't you try it "Yes" or "No"? Had llr. Stevens 
actually said to you that he wanted to fly that big plane over there so 
he could see this private in the Army? 

Mr. Cohx. That is one of the things which Mr. Stevens said on that 
day, yes, sir. 

^Ir. Welch. Did you also want to see Private Schine on that day ? 

Mr. Cohx. Oh, yes, sir, 

Mr. Welch. Was it a surprise to you when he turned up and met 
the plane ? 

Mr. Cohx. Yes, it was a surprise. 

Mr. Welch. A surprise? 

Mr. Cohx. Wlien he met the plane ? 

Mr. Welch. A surprise? 

Mr. Cohx. I might say it was a surprise, yes, sir. 

Mr. Welcit. Didn't you expect to see him when you got there ? 

!Mr. Cohx. I expected to see him — by the way, have we sufficiently 
described the smiles ? 

Mr. Welch. I may want it back, but not at the moment. We will 
drop it now. 

That leads me to say this to you in line with Senator Dworshak''? 
question : Wasn't it as early as July 15 that Dave Schine felt the hot 
breath of the draft board on his neck? 



296 SPECIAL IX\^ESTIGATION 

]\Ir. CoHN. I don't know the exact date, sir, wlien Dave Scliine was 
reclassified. 

Mr. Welch. From July 15, you are trying to get him a commission, 
aren't you ? 

Mr. CoiiN. Trying to get him a commission, sir? 

]\Ir. Welch. Yes. 

Mr. CoHN. I believe he applied for a commission, sir. He gave mo 
as one of the references 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. CoHN. I would be very glad to answer anything Mr. Welch 
wants to ask. 

Senator Mundt. The witness desires to continue without interrup- 
tion. 

Senator McCarthy. A point of order, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair would like to say that a witness has a 
right to answer questions. He is endeavoring to answer this ques- 
tion. I do not believe he should be deprived of it by a point of order. 

Senator McCarthy. I don't want to deprive him of it. I have a 
point of order, Mr. Chairman. Wliile I have a great number of ques- 
tions to ask Mr. Cohn covering this entire procedure, if Mr. Welcli 
is going to go into matters other than the photograph, in my cross- 
examination I will insist on the same privilege. I have no ol)jection. 
I just wanted to notify the Chair of what my position is. 

Mr. Jenkins. It was originally stated when Mr. Cohn was put on 
the witness stand, that he would be questioned and cross-questioned 
exclusively about these photographs. I must say, in all candor that 
the members of this committee have gone beyond that scope of in- 
vestigation. It is a difficult thing for a lawyer to sit and object to a 
question made by a judge, and I confess my dereliction of duty in fail- 
ing to do so. The subject of this inquiry should properly be confined 
to the photographs in question. 

Senator McCarthy. IMr. Chairman, may I make it clear in my 
point of order that I have no objection to Mr. Welch going as far as 
he wants to, and I merely want to notify the Chair that if he goes 
afield then I will claim the right to examine on the same subjects. 

Senator ISIundt. May the Chair say to IMr. Welch, that while there 
has been considerable latitude in deviation, I believe that the point 
of order is well made, because we do not want to deprive Mr. Stevens 
of the right to finish his testimony indefinitely, and if we go too far 
afield in questioning Mr. Cohn at this time, that would be the result. 

We are all aware of the fact that Mr. Cohn will be a witness at con- 
siderable length a little later, and the Chair would appreciate it, sir, 
if you would confine your questions to things relative to the photo- 
graphs. 

]\Ir. Cohn. May I make one point here ? 

Senator Mundt. You have a right to answer that last question. 

Mr. Cohn. I want to make the one point, not only with reference 
to the last question but with reference to the statements made by 
Mr. Stevens, on November 17, about going to see Dave Schine and 
other things. A good deal was said on November 17, and I don't 
want by this ruling now to have Mr. Welch say to me when I am 
on the stand later, that I said that the only thilig Mr. Stevens said 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 297 

on Xovember 17 was he wanted to fly clown to Fort Dix to see Dave 
Scliine. Air. SteA'ens said a o;ood many thino;s. 

Senator Muxdt. The Chair will not sustain such a point of order 
in the remote event that ]Mr. AYelch does that. 

]\Ir. Coirx. I don't want Mv. Welch to say I am doctorino; my 
testimony at that time. A lot more was said on November 17 and I 
welcome the opportunity to tell what it was. 

Senator Muxdt. Proceed, Mr. Welch, now that you are 

]Mr. Welch. Could I inquire how much time I have on this go- 
around? 

Senator Muxdt. I will find out. 

I find that you have about 3 minutes. 

Mr. Welch. ^Mr. Cohn, can you tell us whether or not the photo- 
graph that was brought into this room yesterday was blown up by 
you.r statF? 

Mr. CoHX. I don't believe it was blown up by our staff, Mr. Welch, 
I don't think they know how to blow it up. I believe it was sent 
down to a photostat room some place, and blown up, 

Mr. Welch. My question is this: Was the photograph that you 
saw on the wall of Dave Schine's office as big as the one that was 
handed to Mr, Jenkins ? 

Mr. CoHx. Oh, no, it was not, sir. I think the photograph on 
Dave Schine's office as I recall it, was a regular size, I just don't know 
what the regular dimensions are of the photograph which was framed 
on the wall of his office. 

Mr. Welch. So someone saw fit not only to take a photograph 
from Dave Schine's office, but to blow it up before it Avas handed 
to ]Mr. Jenkins. 

Mr. Cohx. I believe Mr. Jenkins asked me to have it blown up so 
that it would be large enough for everybody to see. 

Mr. Welch. If so, Mr. Jenkins, I would bow to that. 

Mr. Cohx. I think there is nothing wrong in that. 

Mr. Welch. ]\Ir. Jenkins, in my book, can do no wrong. 

Could I pass the rest of my time, and come back to this witness? 

Senator Muxdt. You will have another time if we have another 
go-around and j^ou may stop any time you care to. 

Mr. Welch. I think that I would like to. 

Senator Muxdt. The Chair interprets, as he interprets the rules 
of procedure, that the next questioner to be called upon, will be 
Senator McCarthy, unless Mr. Cohn prefers to ask questions of 
himself, because he has no counsel. 

Mr. Cohx. By not having a counsel, sir, I am afraid I am proving 
the old adage that one who is his own lawyer has a fool for a client, 
and I will not compound it by being my own witness. 

Senator Muxdt. The Chair will now interpret the rule that Sen- 
ator McCarthy will have 10 minutes to question Mr. Cohn. 

Senator McCarthy. A number of things came up here having 
nothing to do with the photograph. 

Senator Muxdt. Can we have the Senator's microphone turned on, 
please? 

Senator McCabtht. j\Ir. Cohn, Mr. Symington was inquiring as 
to whether or not you felt that businessmen might be reluctant to 
come down here in case they got involved in a hearing of this kind. 
Is it correct that we were warned not once, but repeatedly, that unless 



298 SPECIAL rNWESTIGATIO:^ 

we called off the hearings on the investigation of communism into 
the Army installations, that there would be reports made public 
attacking you, and attacking me, and embarrassing the committee ? 
Mr. CoHN. That is absolutely so, sir; yes. 

Senator McCarthy. When Ave were so warned, we discussed that 
in detail, and decided that we would tell those who were warning us 
in effect to go to the devil ; is that right ? 

Mr. CcHN. I think it is more than "in effect"'; I believe those were 
your exact words, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator McCarthy. Now, there was also some criticism here, I 
believe, that Mr. Schine served without a salary. I assume you are 
aware of the fact that one of our great Presidents, Herbert Hoover, 
turned his check back, and served gratuitously for years. And we 
have had a great number of dollar-a-year men in Washington during 
the war, and that Mr. Welch, sitting at your left, according to the 
newspapers, is serving without a salary. 

Mv. CoHX. That is a fact, sir ; and I think that I am sure Mr. Schine 
would not want to be placed in the same company with any dis- 
tinguished men or distinguished lawyers. He is a young guy who 
came down here and worked for nothing for the committee, and 
worked long and hard and did a good job. I think he would want to 
have the record stand at that. 

Senator McCarthy. Now, Mr. Cohn, just one question on the pic- 
ture. 

Senator Mundt. Will the Senator lean forward ? 

Senator McCarthy. I understand the only connection you have had 
with this picture was to order that a picture of Mr. Stevens and Mr. 
Schine be obtained by the staff, and it be blown up so it could be used 
by the committee? 
' Mr. Cohn. That is right. 

Senator McCarthy. You did not see the negative^ and you did not 
see anything except what you saw in Dave Schine's office, plus the 
picture that was shown here? 

Mr. Cohn. That is right, and what I saw in Dave Schine's office, 
that is my recollection, and what I saw in Dave Schine's office was 
not blown up, it was a regular picture in a frame. 

Senator McCarthy. I understand that, and Mr. Carr had not seen 
this picture, is that correct? 

Mr. Cohn. As far as I know, he had not. 

Senator McCarthy. As far as you know, he had not seen this pic- 
ture and did not know the picture would be introduced? 

Mr. Cohn. I am sure he didn't even see the original in Dave Schine's 
office. 

Senator McCarthy. The instruction I have given the staff is to give 
Mr. Jenkins all of the information you have in the office? 

Mr. Cohn. That is right, and we have sent this up as well as other 
items. 

Senator IMcCarthy. Now, on the question, Mr. Cohn, just so the 
record will be straight, I asked Mr. Jackson to read this question into 
the record, and he refused, and he had a right to do that, and I want to 
read the question as asked by Mr. Jenkins into the record, on page 433, 
and this has to do with the question of whether or not Mr. Stevens 
was asked whether the picture was taken alone : 



SPECIAL IN\'ESTIGATIOX 299 

Question : 

Mr. Stevens, did .vou ever have your photojirajili taken with G. David Schine? 

Secretary Stevkxs. Well, there were a lot of photographers around dowu 
there at that heainng. and it could be. 

Mr. Jexkixs. But did j'ou ever at your suggestion at a meeting anywhere, any 
time, say that "I want my picture taken with David" and have it done? 

Secretary Steve>'s. I am sure that I never made a statement just like you 
made it there. 

Mr. CoHX. He did make that statement, sir. 
Senator McCarthy. I heard it, too. 

I mean, if there was a picture being taken and there were people around, I 
might be very apt to say, "Well, let us all step in here and have a picture," but 
I do not think that I ever made any demand to have my picture taken with David 
Schine. 

Mr. Jenkins. I did not say "demand," but was your picture after David Schine 
was drafted ever taken with you alone at your suggestion, anywliere? 

Secretary Stevens. After he was drafted'.' 

Mr. Jenkins. Yes. 

Xow, Mr. Colin, is it correct in tlie presence of myself, and in the 
presence of David Schine, and in the presence of ]\Ir. Carr, I3ob Stevens 
did call the photographer over, a military photographer, and say, ''I 
want my picture taken with Dave,*' and that he did call Dave over 
heside the plane, and that the picture was of him and Dave, and that 
the other colonel was on the picture or John Adams, or whoever else 
it was, made no such request, and they were only incidentally in this 
l^icture? 

Mr. Coiix. Yes, sir, my recollection of it, sir — and I know since 
this whole thing started, that is one of the lirst things we talked about, 
the fact that first Mr. Stevens at the Xovember 6 meeting, when he 
had the place set for Dave Schine, was sorry he wasn't there 

Senator McCarthy. Just stick to this testimony. 

Mr. CoHX. On this thing, sir, Mr. Stevens stated that he wanted 
to have a picture taken of himself and Dave. And you heard it and 
I heard it, and Frank Carr I know particularly heard it. 

Senator McCarthy. I have only got 10 minutes, so keep your an- 
swers short. 

Mr. CoHX. Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Did the colonel at any time ask to have his 
picture taken with Dave? 

Mr. CoHx. I do not believe he did, sir. 

Senator ]\IcCarthy. And Mr. Adams, and whoever the fourth man 
is, did not ask to have a picture taken with Dave? 

INIr. Conx. I don't think so. Mr. Stevens is the one who made the 
statement. 

Senator McCarthy. I have nothing f luther, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Muxdt. ^lay the chair inquire of the other members of the 
committee, of Mr. Welch, and Mr. McCarthy, whether w^e have now 
concluded with Mr. Cohn's testimony on this particular point, so that 
when we resume after lunch, we can begin with ]\Ii". Stevens again, or 
whether there are other committee members who would like to be 
heard now at this point? 

Senator McClellax. The only thing I would suggest is that Mr. 
Cohn identify the parties who gave the warning before he left tho 
stand. 

Mr. Conx. Give the what? 



300 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator McClellan. "Who gave the warning that elicited the direc- 
tions given by Senator McCarthy l 

Mr. CoHN. John Adams, sir. 

Senator McClellan. That is all. 

Senator Mundt. Have you any further questions? 

Mr. CoHN. You mean, Senator McClellan, the vrarning about what 
was going to happen to us unless we stopped the investigation? 

Senator McClellax. That is right. You said you were warned, 
and the Senator asked you that if you didn't stop the hearings. 

Mr. CoHN. That will be developed fully in our case and I believe 
those statements came from John Adams, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. I have no further questions. Before this inquiry 
with respect to this particular photograph is closed I have one other 
witness who will require not more than 5 minutes of the committee's 
time, and in my opmion before the adjournment, and I should like 
to have the indulgence of the committee to introduce that witness. 

Senator Mundt. May the Chair inquire whether we have concluded 
with this witness ? 

IMr. Jenkins. As far as I am concerned. 

Senator Mundt. Do any of the Kepublican members have any fur- 
ther questions to ask? 

Does Mr. Welch have further questions to ask? 

Mr. Welch. I did have 1 or 2 more. 

Senator Mundt. You have another 10 minutes. 

Mr. Jenkins. Would you indulge me, Mr. Welch, to permit me to 
put on 1 witness who will require no more than 5 minutes in my 
opinion ? 

Mr. Welch. Of course, I will. 

Mr. Jenkins. Thank you very much. Then may I do so ? 

Senator Mundt. Provided Senator McCarthy has no further ques- 
tions to ask. 

Senator McCarthy. I have no further questions. 

Senator Mundt. Will you step aside, Mr. Cohn, and counsel will call 
another witness. 

Mr. Jenkins. The next witness is myself. I deem it proper to make 
a statement under oath with respect to this photograph and I think it 
is proper that this committee hear. I should like to be sworn. 

Senator Mundt. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are 
about to give will be the truth, the"^ whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Jenkins. I do so help me God. 

Senator Mundt. You may testify from where you are. 

TESTIMONY OF RAY H. JENKINS 

INIr. Jenkins. I desire to make this statement with reference to the 
photograph about which I cross-examined the Secretary yesterday. 

It is a part of my duty not only to act as counsel for this committee 
but in doing so to investigate the facts. The first several da5^s after I 
was employed were spent by me in investigating the ^ide of this con- 
troversy sometimes referred to as the Army's side. Necessarily I 
have had to be at these committee hearings during the two sessions in 
the daytime and spend a great deal of time in the even,ings with the 
committee in investigating its side. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 301 

Pursuant to that duty and in order to enable me to present the 
facts to this committee as fairly as I know how, I have after each 
afternoon's session spent considerable time in the office of Mr. Cohn, 
some 3 or Syo hours last evening, some considerable time last week. In 
the course of my conversations with IMr. Cohn he told me of more 
than one request by the Secretary to be photographed with Mr. Schine. 
He told me that he had documentary evidence to substantiate that 
charge, I considered it extremely important in the determination of 
one of the issues at least in this controversy. 

Pursuing that question, Mr. Cohn advised that there was in exist- 
ence a picture of the Secretary and Mr. Schine. Please bear in mind, 
gentlemen of the committee, to whom 1 am addressing my remarks, 
tliat after 4 hours in court, so to speak, at which time one is some- 
what exhausted, it is utterly impossible for any human being in my 
opinion to remember every word that was said. In all fairness to the 
Secretary and his distinguished lawyer, and in all fairness to Senator 
^McCarthy and his aides, I will not here say definitely or positively one 
way or the other that Mr. Cohn told me that the picture which was jn 
existence of the Secretary and of Mr. Schine was a picture of them 
alone. I remember distinctly that I considered it important enough 
that I requested the picture be furnished me. 

I want here and now to intersperse pai'enthetically and state this: 
That Mr. "Welch has cooperated wjth me in the furnishing of all the 
witnesses and every document that I have called for 1,000 percent. I 
can say the same thing for Mr. Cohn. 

I requested this photograph. I had seen the photograph some day 
or so before I presented it, because I did not know when I would be 
called upon to question or cross-question the Secretary of the Army. 
Nothing was said to me, I am sure, about the photograph being altered, 
changed, edited, or otherwise. I accepted it at its face value. I called 
the committee's attention to this fact, which I think probably may be 
significant. I first asked Mr. Stevens about this photograph when it 
was not before me. The members of the committee know that. I asked 
him whether or not he had been photographed with David Schine. 
Then I called upon my aides to produce the photograph, and it was 
done so. 

I next asked whether or not he was photographed with David Schine 
alone. Whether I asked that he was photographed with David Schine 
alone as a result of anything that Mr. Cohn may have said I do not 
know. "\Aniether I asked that question as a result of having the pho- 
tograph before me when I asked the second question showing the 
two of them alone, I do not know. 

Gentlemen, that is my version of that incident, with this further 
statement: That I would not under any circumstances present to this 
committee a spurious document. No intimation has ever been given 
me by ]Mr. "Welch or Mr. Stevens or Mr. Adams that I would be handed 
a document that was not genuine and authentic. No intimation has 
ever been made to me by Mr. Cohn or any member of his staff that any 
document would be handed to me for use on direct or cross-examina- 
tion that was not authentic and genuine. 

Now I shall be glad to submit to any examination or cross-examin- 
ation by anyone interested. 



302 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator Mundt. The Chair has no questions. Senator McClelhm. 

Senator McCleulan. Just one point which I think ]Mr. Jenkins 
might clarify. At the time you questioned Secretary Stevens were 
you under the impression that it was a picture of the two alone ? 

Mr. Jenkins. At the time I questioned Secretary Stevens I had not 
talked to INIr. Cohn. My questioning of Secretary Stevens consumed 
some 5 or 6 hours. I could not in the nature of things remember 
whether or not he was asked or whether he told me about any photo- 
graphs taken of him and Mr. Schine. I do say that at that time I 
had questioned no one on Senator JSIcCarthy's staff. I had not heard 
their version of this controversy. 

Senator McClellan. I wasn't suggesting that you had talked to 
them, but the way you presented the picture and interrogated Secre- 
tary Stevens about it rather indicated to me you thought that that 
was the complete photograph at the time you questioned him. 

Mr. Jenkins. Senator McClellan, you are entirely correct. I re- 
peat, in order to be absolutely fair to all concerned, that I will not say 
that Mr. Cohn said that the photograph was taken of Mr. Stevens and 
Mr. Schine alone. It may have been that I got that impression from 
Mr. Cohn. I cannot say yea or nay. It may have been that I got the 
impression from the photograph when it was handed to me by either 
]\Ir. Thomas Pruitt or Mr, Charles IManer, who sit at by back hear- 
ing the examination of these witnesses. 

Senator Mundt. Any further questions, Senator McClellan ? 

Senator McClellan. No further questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dworshak ? 

Senator Dworshak. No questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Jackson is not here. Senator Symington ? 

Senator Symington. No further questions. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch ? 

Mr. Welch. No questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy? 

Senator McCarthy. Just one question only. 

JNIr. Jenkins, up to this point you and I have never discussed this 
case, and we have never met except in the committee room. Is that 
right? 

Mr, Jenkins. You are entirely correct. ]\Ir. Cohn and I have met 
on several occasions, and Mr. Cohn has assured me that you will be 
available to me when the proper time arrives. 

Senator McCarthy. In other words, up to this point the only con- 
tact you have had with me or my staff is that the staff has been in- 
structed to and has made available all material and they have told you 
that I will be available if and when you want to talk to me. 

Mr, Jenkins. I have contacted Mr! Cohn, JNIr. Carr, and Mr. Juliana, 
and perhaps 1 or 2 others on your staff. I have heretofore stated, 
Senator, that they have cooperated 1,000 percent. They have fur- 
nished me or promised to furnish me every document that I have 
called for. They have stated that you will be available when you 
are called for. 

Senator JNIundt. Is that all. Senator McCarthy ? 

Senator McCarthy. Just this one other thing.- Mr. Jenkins, in 
view of the fact that so much has been made of this photogTaph, plus 
the fact that a number of photographers were there taking pictures — 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 303 

I think there Avere 2 or 3 Army photographers — it might be well to 
ask for the production of all pictures taken that particular evening 
and have them all introduced in the record. I personally don't see 
any great significance in the colonel standing here in the picture. It 
may be considered significant by some. I think it is unfortunate that 
his picture and the picture of Mr. Adams or whoever was there was not 
included. 1 think it should be. I would like to suggest to the Chair 
that they subpena all pictures taken that evening. 

Mr. Jexkixs. In the presentation of the facts of these issues it is my 
aim to subpena and have brought to this committee every document, 
photograph, and memorandum tluit I think will shed any light upon 
the issues of the controversy. I promise that that will be done, and 
the committee has requested of me that I have the very things you 
have spoken of, Senator, subpenaed and brought before this com- 
mittee. That will be done. 

Senator McCarthy. Do I understand. Mr. Jenkins, that you have 
alread}' decided to do what I have suggested ? 

Mr. Jexkins. I have just stated that tlie committee has already 
suggested to me that that be done, and it will be done. 

Senator INIcCartiiy. Very good. 

Senator Mukdt. Is that all. Senator McCarthy? 

The Chair will now exercise his authority to unswear counsel from 
his ephemeral position as a witness and ask ]Mr. Cohn to return so 
that Mr. Welch may resume the interrogatories if he has some further 
ijiterrogatories. 

]\Ir. Welch. I think this subject need not now be pursued further. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair will then dismiss Mr. Cohn, and we will 
recess until 2 : 30. Mr. Stevens will be the witness at 2 : 30. 

(Whereupon, at 1 : 10 p. m., the hearing was recessed until 2 : 30 p. m. 
of the same day.) 



INDEX 



Page 

Adami?, John G 259, 262, 268, 266-268, 

272, 273, 276, 279, 281, 282, 286, 290, 291, 293, 299-301, 303 

Armed Services Committee (Senate) 271 

Army (United States) 256, 259-268, 270, 271, 275, 285, 287-289, 295, 300 

Armv enlisted piiotographers 272,273,303 

Boston, Mass 279, 286 

Bradlev, Colonel 258, 271, 279-284, 291, 295 

Carr, Francis P 261-237, 209, 276, 277, 279, 286, 287, 292, 293, 298, 299, 302 

Colin, Roy M 262,263,265-269,271,274,301-303 

Testimony of 275-300 

Communist Party 292 

Communists 261, 274, 287-290, 292, 295 

Congress of the United States 288 

Defense Department 282 

Department of the Army 250, 259-208, 270, 271, 275, 285, 287-289, 295, 300 

Department of Defense 262 

Dirksen, Senator Everett 280 

FBI. (See Federal Bureau of Investigation.) 

Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) 259,292 

Federal Government 289, 292 

Fort Dix 278, 286, 290, 297 

Fort Monmouth 259-261, 267, 270, 271, 275. 290 

Government agencies 292 

Government of the United States 289, 292 

Hensel, H. Struve 257, 259, 262 

Hoover, Herbert 298 

Internal Security Subcommittee (Senate) 289 

Jackson, Senator Henry M 203, 268, 298 

Jenkins, Ray H., testimony of 300-303 

Juliana, James 276. 286, 302 

LaVelle, Colonel 279, 283 

Manner, Mr. Charles 302 

McCarthy, Senator Joseph R 256-260, 

262-268, 270-277, 279, 284, 285, 287, 290, 292, 295-303 

McCarthy committee 276 

iMcCarthy hearings 260 

McClellan, Senator John L 256 

McGuire Air Force Base 257,272,285 

Member of Congress 288 

New York 292 

Pentagon 292 

Photographers (Army enlisted) 272,273,303 

Presidential directives 261 

Pruitt, Mr. Thomas 302 

Republican members 300 

Ryan, General 278 

Schine, David 250, 203, 236-209, 271-274, 277-302 

Secretary of the Army 250, 203-269, 272, 277-303 

Senate Committee on Armed Services 271 

Senate Internal Security Subcommittee 289 

Senate of the United States 259, 267, 292 

Stevens, Robert T 276-280,290-303 

Testimony of 255-275 

Supreme Court of the United States 280 

Symington, Senator Stuart 2j8 



II INDEX 

Page 

United States Air Force 257, 272, 285 

United States Army 256, 259-268, 270, 271, 275, 285, 287-289, 295, 300 

United States Con^U'ess 288 

United States Department of Defense 262 

United States Government 280,292 

United States Senate 259,267,292 

United States Supreme Court 280 

Wasliington, D. C 283,286 

o 



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