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SPECIAL SENATE INVESTIGATION ON CHARGES
AND COUNTERCHARGES INVOLVING: SECRE-
TARY OF THE ARMY ROBERT T. STEVENS, JOHN
G. ADAMS, H. STRUVE HENSEL AND SENATOR
JOE McCarthy, roy m. cohn, and
FRANCIS p. CARR
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SPECIAL SUBCOMMITTEE ON
INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON
GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
UNITED STATES SENATE
EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
PURSUANT TO
S. Res. 189
PART 12
APRIL 29, 1954
Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Operations
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
46«a0» WASHINGTON : 1954
Boston Public Library
Superintendent of Documents
AUG 9 - 1954
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
JOSEPH R. MCCARTHY, M'iscomsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUXDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAX, Arkansas
MARGARET CHASE SMITH. Maiue HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, Minnesota
HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington
EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachnsetta
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Marrland STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri
CHARLES E. POTTER, Mich)j,'an ALTON A. LENNON, Koith Carolina
BicHARD J. O'Melia, General Counsel
Walter L. Reynolds, ChieJ Clerk
Special Subcommittee on Investigations
KARL E. MUNDT, Soutlr Dakota, Cllairman
EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN L. McCLELLAN. Arkansas
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington
HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idalio STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri
Ray H. Jenkins, Chief Counsel
THOMAS R. Pkewitt, Asiiistant Ooiin.sel
Robert A. Collier, Assii^tant Counsel
gOLis HoRwiTz, Assistant Counsel
Charles A. Maner, Hecrctary
II
CONTENTS
Page
Index I
Testimony of Schine, Pvt. G. David, United States Army 451
EXHIBITS
Intro-
duced Appears
on page on page
3. Photograph 467 *
4. Photograph 467 *
5. Photograph 489 •
•May be found In the files of the subcommittee.
lU
SPECIAL SENATE INVESTIGATION ON CHARGES AND
COUNTERCHARGES INVOLVING: SECRETARY OF THE
ARMY ROBERT T. STEVENS, JOHN G. ADAMS, H. STRUVE
IIENSEL AND SENATOR JOE McCARTHY, ROY M.COHN,
AND FRANCIS P. CARR
THURSDAY, APRIL 29, 1954
United States Senate,
Special Subcommittee on Investigation of the
Committee on Government Operations,
Washington^ D. G.
after recess
(The hearing was resumed at 2: 40 p. m., pursuant to recess.)
Present : Senator Karl E. Munclt, Republican, South Dakota, chair-
man ; Senator Everett McKinley Dirksen, Eepublican, Illinois ; Sen-
ator Charles E. Potter, Republican, Michigan; Senator Henry C.
Dworshak, Republican, Idaho ; Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat,
Arkansas; Senator Henry M. Jackson, Democrat, Washington; and
Senator Stuart Symington, Democrat, Missouri.
Also present: Ray H. Jenkins, chief counsel to the subcommittee;
Thomas R. Prewitt, assistant counsel; and Ruth Y. Watt, chief clerk.
Principal participants: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, a United
States Senator from the State of Wisconsin ; Roy M. Cohn, chief coun-
sel to the subcommittee; Francis P. Carr, executive director of the
subcommittee ; Hon. Robert T. Stevens, Secretary of the Army ; John
G. Adams, counselor to the Army ; H. Struve Hensel, Assistant Secre-
tary of Defense; Joseph N. Welch, special counsel for the Army;
James D. St. Clair, special counsel for the Army; Frederick P. Bryan,
counsel to H. Struve Hensel, Assistant Secretary of Defense.
Senator Mundt. May the Chair say the reason for the slight delay
is that we have received word from the floor that they expect a rollcall
vote momentarily, and we are trying to communicate with the Senate
floor now and find out if that is correct. There w^ould be no use in
starting if we are just going to have two or three minutes and then
have a recess again.
We will know in a minute.
(Whereupon, a short recess was taken.)
Senator Mundt. The committee will come to order.
The Chair would like to announce again that the guests in the com-
mittee room are here at the pleasure of the committee, and we are
happy to have you here and we ask only one thing, and that is con-
form to the committee rules and refrain from any manifestations of
approval or disapproval during the course of the hearing.
447
448 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION '
The Chair would also like to announce that we couldn't discover
definitely whether the Senate is about to vote or not. A Senator is
concluding a speech, and that is a little bit indefinite. So we think
we had better start in because sometimes it takes as long for a Sena-
tor to conclude a speech as it does to go around with a round of ques- i
tions. '
I will ask counsel to proceed.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman, I desire to make this public announce- jj
ment. Secretai-y Stevens has been on the witness stand as I recall now
some 6 days. It is evident that he is somewhat exhausted. The com-
mittee feels that out of deference to the Secretary and to the fact that
he has been subjected to an examination and cross-examination for
such an inordinately long time — in view of that fact, and in view of the
fact that it is the wish of the committee that a question which arose
either yesterday or the day before, to wit, with respect to a photograph 11
introduced of the Secretary and Private Schine should be settled;
and in view of the further fact that Mr. AVelch not only, as I under-
stand it, concurs with us in our decision to have the Secretary stand
aside, but requested that we do so for the reasons that I have stated,
we have decided to ask Mr. Stevens to stand aside and now introduce
proof with respect to the photograph of November 17.
With this further understanding — and I desire to emphasize this —
that no witness put on with respect to any of the circumstances with
reference to the taking of that picture, or to the picture introduced
as an exhibit, shall be examined or cross-examined by any member of
the committee or any counsel on any matter save with respect to the
photograph, the circumstances under which it was taken, and the
introduction of the photograph ; and that I may, with all clue defer-
ence to the members of this committee, interpose an objection if any of
the members of the committee get off the reservation.
Senator McClellan. A point of order.
Senator Mtjndt. Senator McClellan.
Senator McClellan. I suggest one modification : That any witness
who testifies is subject to cross-examination w^ith respect to his credi-
bility on any issue.
Mr. Jenkins. I think that is elementary, because that is one of the
issues of the controversy, and Senator McClellan, I agree that that
would be a proper subject of inquiry.
Senator Mtjndt. The Chair would construe that to be a relevant
line of cross-examination.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman.
If I may have attention of counsel on this also, may I say that I
liave no objection whatsoever to Mr. Stevens stepping aside, if this is
upon the request of his counsel on the basis that the Secretary is weary
or tired and wants a rest.
I would strenuously object to breaking into his testimony for any
other reason. I think that any witness at any time — and the Secre-
tary has been here for a long time — who, through his counsel says, "I
am tired and I want a rest, and I want a recess," then I would make
no objection. If it is for any other reason, then I would say it is
highly improper to break into the testimony becanse I was right in
the middle of my questioning.
Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, I do not make any such request, and
Mr. Stevens wanted me to make it entirely clear that he is a member
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 449
of the Army, and that he would go forward if the committee required
him to,
I was told by Mr. Jenkins this mornino- that it was his intention to go
into the picture incident almost at the opening of this morning's
session, and I then gave my consent to that cliange. That consent,
Mr. Jenkins, still stands.
I am not unmindful of the fact that putting that testimony on will
give Mr. Stevens a little respite automatically, but he would not,
however, permit me to ask for quarter. He would prefer to go on
rather than see any signal flag go up of any lack of courage on his part.
I think it is clear, therefore, that if required he will go on, but I
admit as his counsel I am prepared to have the interruption.
Mr. Jenkins. I will state publicly that I feel it should be done,
and the committee this morning in an executive session voted as I
recall to follow the procedure that I have now suggested.
Senator Mundt. It was not done by a vote, but it was done by gen-
eral agreement. Senator McCarthy ?
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, there is only one reason on
earth why we should break the usual rules we are following, and that
is if a witness at any time feels that he wants a rest, he should have it.
I may say that I have no personal sympathy for this particular
witness. He lias initiated the charges asking for the wrecking of
the reputation and the jobs of my two top men in my committee. I
have many questions to ask him about that.
Now, to break this up, Mr. Chairman, and to violate the rules that
were adopted some time ago would be, I think, a mistake, unless the
Secretary wants a rest and that is no disgrace. I frankly would like
one myself.
Unless he wants a rest I don't think we should dismiss him from
the stand.
Senator Mundt. The Chair is prepared to undertake, on his own re-
sponsibility, to say that he believes that Secretary Stevens has earned
a little temporary respite, having been subjected to questioning for a
long time.
Secondly, the rule of the hearings is that the counsel is to put
on the evidence in the order that he deems to be best and most judicious.
And he has asked that this evidence be introduced at this time.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman
Senator Mundt. We will be glad to hear you.
Senator McCarthy. I don't want, Mr. Chairman, to take up too
much time on this. But let me say this : That the rule was, the rule
that was adopted, that whenever a witness w^as on the stand we would
alternate 10 minutes for each man available, until the witness' testi-
mony had been completed.
Now, to break up his testimony for other witnesses, I think is a
complete violation of that rule.
May I say, Mr. Chairman — let me say this. That one of the reasons,
as the Chair knows, why I consented to retire from the committee
and appoint someone in my place was that I had the assurance that
there would be no change in the ground rules during the hearing.
Otherwise I would not have absented myself from the committee.
I just think — Mr. Jenkins, could I have your attention, too — the
reason I want the attention of counsel and the reason I ask for the
attention of counsel
450 SPECIAL INVESTIGATIOl^
Mr. Jenkins. I beg pardon.
Senator McCarthy. I think he is one of the best lawyers we have
lijere, and I thinli he is completely fair and doing a gaod j.ob,
Mr; Jenkins
Mr. Jenkins. Let that point go in the record, ^Ir. Chairman,
Senator AIcCarthy. JMay I say, to end my argmnent : That you
are changing the ground rules in the middle of the game. And we
had an agreement not to do that. I Avould do that if Mr. Stevens;
ii> tired or Aveary ; otherwise, we have a man on the stand who has
made the most grievous^ charges against the reputation and the in-
tegrity of my committee and he should not. be allowed to step down
merely for the purpose of regrouping his forces and discussing the
matter with counsel.
Senator Jackson. A point oif order, Mr. Chairmaiv
Senator Mundt. May the Chair say, unless Senator McCarthy is:
laboring under some misapprehension, that it has not been proposed
by counsel that Secretary Stevens be permanently dismissed from the
witness stand or that he be deprived of all of his rights as guaranteed
under the rules to ask tlie questions that he wants to ask, imder the
regular 10-minute rule, until all questions are concluded.
Senator Jackson. A point of order
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, may I finish ?
Senator Jackson. Who is recognized?
Senator !Mundt. The Chair will recognize Senator McCarthy, or
either one, or whoever addressed the Chair first.
Senator Jackson. I make this point of order : It is, my miderstand-
ing tliat the reason why evidence is now to be or testimony is now to
be requested by the counsel is because of the incident that occurred on
Monday,, with, ite£erence to a photograph that had been given to the
counsel.
I assume that it is always in order,^ ia order to. properly question the
witness hi this case, that if evidence is introduced which was not as
represented that we have a right to have that information before the
witness finally steps down from the Avitness stand.
I see no change in the rules. And I assume that a point of order
properly lies against any suggestion that he should step aside nec-
essarily because of weariness.. I would insist regardless, and I have
insisted, as you know, from the begmning that w& clear up this photo-
graph.
Senator Mundt. The counsel, under the rules of procedure, has
conti-ol of the manner in which the evidence is to be introduced. And
I will be glad to hear on a point of order.
Senator McCarthy. JMr. Chairman, one of the reasons why I may
appear to be insistent is that I don't like to set a ]3recedent. I stepped
oif the committee temporarily after certain- ground rules were agreed
to by me and the committee, and we agreed mianimously.
And I said as long as we follow those ground rules I would not
act as a member of the connnittee. And one of the ground rules was
that when a witness was on the stand, everyone on the committee, coun-
sel for all parties concerned, would have an opportunity to, exhaust
their examination before he left the stand. That is the rule.
How, if there is something of tremendous importance, we have got
to break into this for, or, as I say, if the Secretary is tired; otherwise,
Mr. Chairman, I think that we are setting a, dangerous precedent.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 451
Let me ask you this, Mr. Chairman: I understand now that you
intend to put in evidence about a picture of Mr, Stevens and Mr.
Schine. Could I ask, are all of the pictures that have been ordered
from the military photographers available? If not, that is another
reason why we should not go into this thing piecemeal.
Senator JMundt. Counsel tells me that he is prepared to introduce
the testimony in connection with the picture; is that correct?
Mr. Jenkins. In connection with the picture that was filed as an
exhibit to the Secretary's testimony earlier this week.
Senator Symington. A point of order.
Mr. Jenkins. Under date of November 17. With respect to that
matter only.
Senator Mundt. Senator Symington?
Senator Symington. It is now nearly 3 o'clock. Therefore, 25 per-
cent of the hearing has gone. So far we haven't done anything.
Senator Mundt. The Senator will state his point of order.
Senator McCarthy ?
Senator McCarthy. Mr, Chairman, may I say that I am willing to
leave it up to the pdgment of counsel. I withdraw my objection and
leave it up to the judgment of counsel.
Senator Mundt. Very well. The judgment of counsel is that we
shall proceed with the testimony on the pictures, and Secretary
Stevens will step down and counsel will call the first witness.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman, I desire to call as the first witness
Pvt. G. David Schine.
Senator Mundt. Will you stand and be sworn, please?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Private Schine. I do.
Senator Mundt. You may be seated.
Mr. Jenkins will inquire.
Will the photographers please be seated ?
TESTIMONY OF PVT. G. DAVID SCHINE
Mr. Jenkins. Will you please state your name in full?
Private Schine. Gerard David Schine, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Where are you now stationed. Private Schine ?
Private Schine, I am stationed at Fort Myer, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. You are in the Army ?
Private Schine. I am, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Schine, I want to make this statement to you
at this time. I think it is proper. The inquiry of you at this time
will be confined to one subject only. If you are asked any question
with respect to any other issue or controversy in this lawsuit, in this
controversy, I respectfully ask you not to answer it until I shall
have had time to interpose an objection.
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. The inquiry is directed to a photograph allegedly
taken of you. Secretary Stevens, and/or perhaps others.
Senator McClellan. JNIr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Do you have a point of order ?
46G20'— 54— pt. 12 2
452- SPECIAL DrV'ESTIGATIO]Sr
Senator- MgClellan. A point of order,, in the nature of; a point of
order.
I sliould like to ascertain before proceedinsr with, the witness whether
tlie witness hag been advised of Ms right to have eomisel present, and
if he desires to have counsel present at this time.
Senator ]\Iundt. The Chair sustains the point of order. Will eoun-
sel interrogate the witness on that point ?:
Mr. Jexkixs. Mr. Schine, do vou understand that it is vxdup con-
stitutional right and your right according to the rules of this com-
niittee, permanent subcommittee, that you hav© a right to have counsel
present to advise you from time to time during the course of your
txamination ?
Private Schixe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkixs. Do you desire to avail yourself of tliat right?
Private Schine. I have no counsel with me, sir.
Mr. Jexeix^; Do you desire counsel with you for the purpose of
conferring and receiving his advice during the iinqmry on this par-
ticular subject?
Private Schixe. I believe I can answer the questions regarding this
particular subject without counsel, sir.
Mr. Jexkixs. Please state where you were on November IT, 1953?
Private Schixe. What date was that, sir ?
Mr. Jexkixs. November 17. To call to your mind specifically what,
T have in mind, the day you allegedly were photographed with the
Secretary of the Army and perhaps otliers.
Private Schixe. I was at Fort Dix, N. J., sir.
Mr. Jexkixs^ Please, tell the committee wliether or not you were
photographed on that day together witli otliers i
Private Schixe. I was, sir.
Mr. Jexkixs. Under what circumstances — did you. see the Secrer
tary of the Army on that day ?
Private Schixe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jexkixs. How did he arrive at Fort Dix, by what method of
transportation ?
Private Schixe. In an airplane, sir.
Mr. Jexkixs. Is there a landing field at Fort Dix, or is there an air-
port near Fort Dix ?
Private Schixe. There is one adjoining Fort Dix, sir.
Mr. Jexkixs. Do you recall the name of the airport?
Private Schixe. McGuire Air Force Base, sir.
Mr. Jexkixs. Do you remember the incident of the Secretary ar-
riving by plane on November 17 at McGuire Air Base ?
Private Schixe. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jexkixs. Were you at McGuire Air Base when the plane ar-
rived transporting the Seeretai-y ?
Private Schixb. I was, sir.
Mr. Jexkixs. Will you tell the committee the circumstances under
which you were at the airbase while you were there?
Private Schixe. I was ordered to be there, sir.
Mr. Jexkixs. By whom?
Private Schixe. By the commanding general of the base, sir.
Mr. Jexkixs. State his name?
Private Schixe. General Ryan, sir.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 453
Mr. Jenkins. General Ryan ordered you to be at the McGuire Air
Base to meet the phine transporting the Secretary of the Army?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Did you know or were you advised by General Ryan
who the passengers were on that i^lane?
Private Schine. No, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Do you know why General Ryan ordered you to
meet the plane?
Private Schine. Do I know now, sir?
Mr. Jenkins. Yes. Did General Ryan tell you why you were to
meet the plane ?
Private Schine. I believe he told me, sir, that some of the Senate
Investigations Committee staff, Senator McCarthy, and Secretary
Stevens, were coming to see me, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Do you recall the hour of arrival of the plane?
Private Schine. It was right after retreat, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. That would be about what time ?
H Private Schine. I believe about 5 : 30 or a quarter of six, sir.
1 Mr Jenkins. Still daylight? Was it still daylight?
W Private Schine. I believe it was just entering the evening, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Who was on the plane ?
Private Schine. Senator McCarthy, sir, Roy Cohn, Frank Carr,
Secretary Stevens, John Adams, and there might have been 1 or 2
other staff members there.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Schine, state whether or not on that occasion
you were photographed ?
Private Schine. I was, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. I want you, without my asking you the specific ques-
tions— first of all, I want to state this : Do not state at whose request
you were photographed. That is not a proper subject of inquiry at
this time. I want you to state all other circumstances under which
you were photographed and with whom you were photographed. You
may proceed.
Private Schine. I was asked to come over and stand in a certain
spot next to a certain individual, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. You asked to?
Private Schine. I was asked to, yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. I will not ask you by whom, but as a result of that
request, what did you do?
Private Schine. I obeyed, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. With whom were you photographed ?
Private Schine. I was photographed with the Secretary of the
Army.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Stevens ?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Very well.
Private Schine. And Colonel Bradley was standing in the picture,
too, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Who took the photograph ?
Private Schine. An Air Force photographer, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Do you know the name of the photographer who
took it?
Private Schine. I do not, sir.
454 SPECIAL INVESTIGATIOJI
Mr. jE?<fKiNS. As a result of tiicat ©cciirrenGG, wTiat, if anything, did
yon do with respect to the photograph or the negative?
Private Schtne. After the photograph was taken, sir, as soon as
I was able to I went over to the Air Force photographers — I believe
there were at least two — and I quietly asked them if they wonkl be
good enough not to publish the photograph anywhere, that I had had
to pose for it upon request, that of course I would like to have a copy
of it but I would appreciate it very much if they would not sent it to
any publications.
Mr: J'ENKJxs. Was it not sent to any publication as far as you
know ?
Private ScHiNE. As far as I know, it was not, sir.
Mr. Jtsnktns. Were you given at a later date this photograph ?
Private Sctiine. Yes, sir. I believe it arrived at my office in New.
York tlirough the mail.
Mr. Jenkins. Do you know who sent it ?'
Private Schine. I understand it came fi'om the Air Force photog-
rapherj^sir..
Mr. Jexkins. The one who took the pictured
Private Schine. It is from him or his office, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. ISIr. Schine, do you have an office^ ikt New York Gitj ?
Private Schine. I do, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. I will ask you- whether or not the photograph I now-
hand you for inspection is the one sent to you by the photographer;
[Photograph exhibited to Private Schine.]:
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. 'Wliat did you do with that photograph, Mr. Schine?
Private Schine. I asked the office to have it framed and put on the
wall in my office.
Mr. Jenivins;^ I hand you now a frame and* ask you to examine i#.
and state wlietlier or not that is the frame in which the photograph 1
you have before you was fi*amed and hung in your office.
Private Schine. It looks like the frame, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. When was the photograph taken from your office??
Private Schine. It was on Thursday morning, siu,. or possibly ber
fore that.
Mr. Jenkins. Of last week?;
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Senator JNIundt. Photographers, we had an agreement worked out^
perhaps you were not here, that the photographers would take their
pictures from a sitting or kneeling position, and not because' it in-
conveniences the committee so much, but in fairness to the television
people. We have received a great many complaints about photog^
raphers bobbing up in front of the telegraphic lenses.
As an old photographer, I am sure you don't want anybody to get
between you and the subject of the camera.
Mr; Jenkins. State whether or not, on one day last week, you were
in the office — being office No. 101, as I recall, in this building — with*
Mr. Cohn and perhaps with Mr.. Carr, and perhaps others, at which
time I was present and you were present ; and at wMch. time I was
questioning Mr. Cohn aaid others present with reference to the facts
of their case preparatory to presenting their case to the committee?'
Were you there on such an occasion ?
Private Schine. I was, sir.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION' 455
Mr. Jenkins. Do not say what was said, please, but state whether
or not on that occasion I was told by both Mr. Cohn and perhaps
others and you who requested the takinc; of that photograph. Now,
you can answer that "Yes" or "No." Was I told that ?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
]Mr. Jenkins, Do you recall that in consequence of that informa-
tion which was impaired to me at the time I made inquiry as to
w hether or not the photograph was in existence ?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. And was told that it was in your possession, and
hanging in your office, in New York City ?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
JNlr. Jenkins. And did I request that the photograph be furnished
to me to be presented as evidence in this case ?
Private StuiiNE. You did, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. In consequence of that, what did you do, just follow
the ste])S you took in complying with my request and getting that
photograph to me?
Private Schine. I got in a taxicab, sir, and I went to the airport
and got on the first plane I could, and I went to New York to get
the thing you requested, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Did you bring it back to Washington?
Private Schine. I did, sir.
Mr. Jenkins, To whom did you deliver it?
Private Schine, I delivered it to Mr, George Anastos, a member
of the staif,
Mr. Jenkins. Is the photograph that you delivered to the gentle-
man whose name you have called, the identical photograph now
before you ?
Private Schine. When I took it from my office in New York, sir,
it was Avrapped in brown paper, and I did not open it between the
time I left New York and the time I handed it to Mr. Anastos, sir.
Mr, Jenkins, But is the photograph you have before you now
the one that you took from the frame in your office in New York
City?
Private Schine, Yes, sir,
Mr. Jenkins. And is that the one that you delivered to the gentle-
man whose name you mentioned ?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Have you seen the photograph since then, until
today ?
fc* Private Schine. No, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Did you see a photograph — and may I ask for it
now ?
Mr. Schine, I now pass to you a photograph purporting to be a
photograph of you and the Secretarv of the Army only, and entitled
at the head "McGuire AFB, Fort Dix, November 17, 1953," and I
will ask you whether or not you have ever seen that particular
photograph until now ?
(The picture referred to was passed to the witness.)
Private Schine, Yes, sir, I have seen this published in newspapers,
I believe, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Since the original Avas delivered to the office here in
Washington ?
456 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Private Sciiine. I have never seen this print, sir. I have eeen
copies of this in the newspapers, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Those were newspaper pictures of that photograph
which have occurred in the last few days ?
Private Schine. That is right ; I have never seen this.
Mr. Jenkins. But you have never seen the original that I now hand
yon and the one that I offered as evidence in tliis case a few days
ago ; is that tight, Mr. Schine ?
Private Schine. That is right, sir.
Mr. Jenkins, Do you have any knowledge of any of the circum-
stances— strike that.
Looking at the original photograph, who is the man on your im-
mediate right, as shown in that photograph ?
Private Sciiine. That is Colonel Bradley, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Do you have any knowledge of the circumstances
under which
Senator Mundt. I think we are going to have to do something about
these photographers and do it now. We have tried to be as lenient
as we can, but we cannot permit the hearings to be interrupted by
disorderly behavior on the part of the photographers.
There will be no more climbing on chairs, and no more running
around in front of the witnesses. We have asked you as courteously
as we can and we had your assurances that you would live up to the
rules of the committee. Now, we can go no further, and I will tell the
young man who is the president of this group with whom we have
worked, and with whom the photographers have cooperated with us
very well up to this time, this type of thing is out From now on the
photographers will be governed accordingly.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Schine, do you have any knowledge of the cir-
cumstances under which the picture of Colonel Bradley was omitted,
or taken from the original photograph ?
Private Schine. Only through reading the testimony, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. You were not there when such a thing was done, if
it was done ?
Private Schine. No, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. You have read the testimony you say ?
Private Schine. I believe I have.
Mr. Jenkins. The stenographer's transcript of the testimony ?
Private Schine. I have read some of it.
Mr. Jenkins. That is the only basis of your knowledge ?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. You did not do it yourself, is that what we under-
stand, Mr. Schine ?
Private Sciiine. I did not do it myself, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. You saw no one else do it?
Private Schine. No, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. No further questions.
Senator ]\Iundt. The Chair has no questions at this time, and will
pass temporarily. Senator McClellan.
Senator McClellan. I have only one question, Mr. Schine. That
picture that has been made an exhibit in this testimony, the large one
now before you, from your recollection or from your knowledge can
you say any such picture was ever taken of you and Secretary Stevens
except in the group picture which you have identified 1
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 457
Private Sciiine. I don't know, sir, how many pictnres the Air Force
photographers took, but this picture is the one that I received.
Senator McClellan. That is the picture you have received?
Private Sciiine. Yes, sir.
Senator McClellan. I am asking the question if at any time, to
your knowledge, did the Air Force or anyone else ever take a picture of
you and Secretary Stevens alone?
Private Sciiine. I really wouldn't know, sir.
Senator McClellan. That is all.
Senator Munot. Senator Dirksen ?
Senator Dirksen. Just one question. To whom was the photograph
delivered, the one that you brought down from New York?
Private Schine. I delivered it to Mr. Anastos, sir.
Senator Dirksen. Would you spell it, please.
Private Sciiine. A-n-a-s-t-o-s.
Senator Dirksen. A-n-a-s-t-o-s?
Private Sciiine. Yes, sir.
Senator Dirksen. You said he was a member of the staff?
Private Sciiine. Yes, sir.
Senator Dirksen. Thank you.
Senator Munot. Senator Jackson ?
Senator Jackson. Private Schine, you went to New York on what
day to get the picture ? .
JPrivate Sciiine. I went on Wednesday evening, sir.
Senator Jackson. Wednesday — how long ago?
Private Schine. Last Wednesday, sir.
Sf-nator Jackson. A week ago yesterday ?
Private Schine. The day before the hearings began, sir.
Senator Jackson. That was as a result of the conference that Mr.
Jenkins has inquired about in the office in room 101 of the Senate Office
Building?
Private Sciiine. That was at the request of Mr. Jenkins, sir.
Senator Jackson. Who went with you on the trip ?
Private Schine. Nobody, sir.
Senator Jackson. You went alone ?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Senator Jackson. Your picture was on the wall in your office in
New York?
Private Schine. No, sir, it was wrapped up ready for me to bring
back to Washington.
Senator Jackson. How did it happen to be wrapped up to bring
back?
Private Schine. I had called the office and asked them to have it
ready.
Senator Jackson. Had it been on the wall ?
Private Schine. It had been on my wall, sir.
Senator Jackson. When did you take it off the wall ?
Private Schine. I really do not know when the staff took it off the
wall, sir.
Senator Jackson. Your office staff. They took it off as a result
of your telephone call?
Private Schine. I really do not know, sir. I do not know when
they took it off.
458 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Senator Jacksoist. I mean, had this picture been on your office wall
when you were last in your office in New York ? How long ago was
that?
Private Schine. It was not on my wall when I was last in New
York, sir.
Senator Jacksox. When was that ?
Private Schine. That was
Senator Jackson. A week ago yesterday 1
Private Schine. No, sir. This was last weekend, sir.
Senator Jackson. When did you ask that the picture be taken
off your office wall ? Was that a week ago yesterday ?
Private Schine, When did I ask that it be taken off the wall, sir ?
Senator McCarthy, Mr, Chairman?
Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy.
Senator McCarthy. I do not want to spend time on a point of
order, but what difference does it make when tlie picture was taken
off the wall ?
Senator Mundt. The Senator may have something in mind, and
he has the right to ask the question as long as it is within the purview
outlined by counsel.
Senator Jackson. I think it is entirely relevant in view of the
testimony previously given by Mr. Cohn,
Senator Mundt. Tlie Senator will proceed.
Senator Jackson. When did you ask that it be taken down from
your office wall?
Private Schine. I do not recall, sir.
Senator Jackson. Do you have any idea? Was it in connection
with the procurement of the picture for introduction in evidence in
this hearing?
Private Schine, Do you mean, sir, did I ask that it be taken off
the wall immediately following Mr. Jenkins' request that I produce
the picture?
Senator Jackson. Yes.
Private Schine. Tlie answer is, no, sir.
Senator Jackson. When was it taken down from your office wall?
When did you ask, approximately?
Private Schine. I have no idea, sir. I have been stationed at Camp
Gordon, Ga., for 3 months, or more, and I have not been in my office
during that period. I do not know when it was taken off the wall, sir.
Senator Jackson. You did request that it be taken off the wall ?
Private Schine. I did not request that it be taken off the wall.
Senator Jackson. You did not?
Private Schine. No, sir.
Senator Jackson. When you came back, you delivered it to Mr.
Anastos of the committee, and it was wrapped up in brown paper?
Private Schine. Right, sir.
Senator Jackson. That is the last you saw of it?
Private Schine. Kight, sir.
Senator Jackson. That is all.
Senator ISIundt. Senator Potter ?
Senator Potter. I have no questions.
Senator Mundt. Senator Symington?
Senator Symington. Just one question, Mr. Schine. You say a
picture was taken of you and Colonel Bradley and Mr. Stevens?
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 459
Private Schine. This picture, sir [indicating^].
Senator Symington. Who else was in the picture ?
Private Schine. I see only three people, sir.
Senator Symington. The blo^yn-up picture we had, had the hat and
coat of a fourth. Do you happen to remember who that was?
Private Schine. No, I do not, sir. I remember that they snapped
several pictures, and I believe that this was one of the first ones they
snapped after I had been asked
Senator Mundt. I am sorry, the last bell was the vote, so we will
have to stand in recess for perhaps 15 minutes Avhile the Senators go
and vote.
(Brief recess.)
Senator Mundt. The committee will come to order, please.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, is one of my few points of
order in order ?
Senator Mundt. The Senator will state it briefly, please.
Senator McCarthy. I have reason now to believe that the picture
which was sent to Mr. Schine and part of which was introduced in
evidence the other day, is entirely different from the picture pre-
sented by the Army, which Mr. Stevens and Mr. Adams blew up
and presented to us as the complete picture. If so, this a tremendous
imposition upon Mr. Jenkins, the counsel.
I would like at this time — may I say, Mr. Chairman, while nor-
mally this would not be a point of order, it is the type of point of
order Mr. Welch made, so I think following precedent I should make
it. I think at this time we should have presented the complete
picture sent to Mr. Schine and the blowup w^hich
Senator Mundt. The Chair is ready to rule on the point of order.
The counsel advises the Chair he is going to introduce all the pictures
at the proper time, but now Senator Symington is part way through
his 10 minutes, so we will go back to Senator Symington. All the
information on the pictures, all the prints, everything will be
introduced.
Senator Symington, you had consumed about a minute.
Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman, I wanted to say the picture
which I got off the desk did not have, to the best of my sight, in it the
arm and the hat that was in the second picture. So it may well be
that we have a third picture here. That is the reason I asked the
question.
I have no further questions at this time.
Senator Mundt. Senator Potter, I believe, is next.
Senator Potter. I have no further questions.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. We will get to you in a minute. H;;ve you a point
of order?
Senator McCarthy. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
If it develops that Mr. Welch or Mr. Adams or INIr. Stevens pre-
sented a picture, a blowup of a picture which was not a blowup of the
picture which was presented in evidence, then will we have everyone
involved called, the same as was suggested before ?
Senator Mundt. Yes, indeed. The Chair will repeat himself. We
are going to get everybody in connection with that picture wlio cm
40020°— 54— pt. 12 3
460 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION^
slied any light upon it to testify. We want to get the truth. I think
everybody does. Nobody knows the answer to it at the moment.
Senator Potter had no questions. Senator Symington was last on
that side. Is Senator Dworshak in the room? (No response.) I
cannot see in. the light. He is on the way back from the rollcalh
Mr. Welch?
Mr. Welch. Private Schine, as I followed your testimony, when
you were informed at
Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch, will you keep your face toward the
mike? We missed that. Will you repeat it, please? This will not
be out of your time.
Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, I have a habit of looking at a witness
when I examine him. It causes me to turn away from the microphone,
but I hope I have cured that situation.
Senator Muxdt. Thank you.
Mr. Welch. Mr. Schine, I noticed when you testified that you heard
that someone was coming on the plane to see you, that you named the
people coming in this order : Members of the staff. Senator McCarthy,
and Secretary Stevens.
It is a good deal to suggest that you remember the order in which
you stated those that were arriving, but will you agree with me if I tell
you that you stated them in that order ?
Private Schixe. No, sir, I don't recall the order I stated the list of
people in, sir.
Mr. Welch. "^Yhen you described their arrival you described them
in this order: Senator McCarthy, Mr. Cohn, Mr. Carr, Secretary
Stevens, and Mr. Adams. Do you remember placing the arrival in
that order ?
Private Schine. I can't recall exactly the order I used, sir.
Mr. Welch. If I suggest to you, sir, that you did name them in that
order, would you agi'ee with me that I was correct ?
Private Schine. No, sir.
Mr. Welch. As you think over the group now, do they come to your
mind in roughly that order: Senator McCarthy, Cohn, Carr, Stevens
and Adams?
Private Schine. No, sir.
Mr. Welch. After the photographs were taken, you made an oral
request that the person that took them should not publish them ; is
that right ?
Private Schine. I did, sir.
Mr. Welch. And j^ou made a written request, also, did you not ?
Private Schine. I don't recall having made a written request, sir.
Mr. Welch. Did you say you did or didn't?
Private Schine. I would say I didn't, sir.
Mr. Welch. Is there someone from the Air Force here with a letter
signed by this witness in connection with the questions I am now
asking?
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Welch, I have before me a letter dated November
24, 1953, signed hj G. David Schine, which was passed to me today
and addressed to Public Information Officer. Is that the letter about
which you are making inquiry?
Mr. Welch. I judge it is, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. I shall be very glad to deliver it to you.
Senator McCarthy. Could 1 see that, Mr. Counsel ?
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 461
Mr. Jenkins. Do you think it proper that Senator McCarthy see it
first, Mr. Welch?
Mr. Welch. I think it proper that he should see it.
(Document referred to was passed to Senator McCarthy.)
Senator Mundt. Time out v;hile we are examining the document.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy.
Senator McCarthy. I agree with Mr. Welch this should be put in
evidence but I think first it should be established who signed the letter,
whether Mr. Schine or his secretary.
(The committee examined the document.)
Senator Mundt. Will you pass this on to Mr. Welch, please?
(Document referred to was passed to Mr. Welch.)
Mr. Welch. Private Schine, I show you a letter, or what purports
to be a letter, on the letterhead of the United States Senate, Com-
mittee on Government Operations, purporting to be dated November
24, 1953, carrying in the lower lef thand corner of it the initials GDS :
P'P, and carrying on the righthand side, "Cordially yours" comma, and
in ink "G. David Schine"; and under thnt ink legend the typewritten
words "G. David Schine."
Was that letter signed by you?
Private Schine. It was not, sir.
Mr. Welch. Was it dictated by you?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Was it sent on your behalf ?
Private Schine. It was, sir.
Mr. Welch. IMay I read it to you, and you v •' 'i me, Mr. Schine.
Private Schine. May I read the letter, sir.
Mr. Welch. Indeed. You have it.
Private Schine (reading) .
Public Infoemation Officer,
McGiiire Air Force Base, Trenton, N. J.
Dear Sir : Thank you very much for sending the pictures of Secretary Stevens,
Colonel Bradley, and myself.
If any of the other photographs which were taken had of turned out satis-
factorily, I would appreciate having those forwarded to me as well.
I want to express my gratitude at this time for your cooperation in not re-
leasing the pictures or any kind of press statement. I will remember my promise
to you that if at some time in the future it becomes possible to allow publication
of the pictures that McGuire Air Force Base will be given credit for the
photography.
This is signed apparently by somebody in my office, and it is dated
November 24, 1953. This is the first I have seen the actual letter,
although I recall having dictated that now. I apparently thanked
the Air Force for sending me the picture, for not printing it; and in
answer to their request, when I did ask them not to print it, I told
them that I would comply with their request and give McGuire
Air Force Base credit for the photography if ever the picture were
printed — something I just remember I have not done. [Laughter.]
]Mr. Welch. Private Schine, I suggest to you that if you and I both
give them a plug now, they ought to be pretty well satisfied, don't
you think? Will you join me in giving them a "thank you"?
Private Schine. I have already thanked them, sir.
Mr. Welch. Now I wish to ask j^ou, on the basis of this letter, if
you were seeking to secure an exclusive print on your own behalf.
462 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Private Schine. I was seeking nothing, sir, except what the pho-
tographers had taken when Secretary Stevens asked me to stand with
him for that picture.
Mr. Welch. Yes; but you asked them not to release the picture,
did you not ?
Private Schine. I did, indeed, sir.
Mr. Welch. And you asked them not to give out any kind of press
statement?
Private Schine. I did, indeed, sir.
Mr. Welch. For wliicli I think it fairly follows — and I am not
charging you with anything, sir — from that that you were seeking
an exclusive, were you not ?
Private Sciiixe. I was not, sir. I said nothing to them about where
else they should send tlie picture privately. I merely requested from
them after the picture was taken tliat they not publish it anywhere.
I told them that I had to pose for it because I was asked to by Secretary
Stevens, but I said nothing to them about where else they should send
the picture.
Mr. Welch. Are you suggesting, sir, that it was repulsive to you
to pose for that picture ?
Private Schine. I am not suggesting anything, sir. I am saying
that at the time I made the request of the photographers that they not
publish the picture anywhere, I have not seen the picture published
anywhere, and I appreciate very mucli the promise they made to me
that tliey would not send it to any publications.
Mr. Welch. Are you suggesting, sir, that you were ordered by the
Secretary of the Army to pose for that picture ?
Private Schine. I am saying, sir, that I was asked by the Secretary
of the Army to stand next to him and be photogTaphed.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Counsel.
Mr. Jenkins. That matter is not a proper subject of inquiry, and I
made it perfectly clear; but if Mr. Welch desires that his question
and answer stand, I take it that it does not lie within my province to
object to it. It sheds no light on the photogi'aphs, their authenticity,
whether or not anyone is cut out of it. I would merely remind counsel
of that fact.
Mr. Welch. I will try not to stray afield, sir. I think I will stay in
bounds.
One more question, however, along this line. Did you ask Secretary
Stevens' permission to mount it on your wall and give it publicity to
tJiat extent ?
Private Schine. I did not, sir.
Mr. Welch. Did you follow the hearings in this room by television?
Private Schine. Which hearings, sir?
Mr. Welch. That we are attending today. Have you been follow-
ing them?
Private Schine. I have followed as many of them as I was permitted
to follow, sir.
Mr. Welch. Were you following on the morning that we had quite
a to-do in this room about the picture ?
Private Schine. I believe I saw some of that hearing, sir.
Mr. Welch. Did you understand that I, Welch, was then suspicious
that this picture had in some way been doctored ?
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 463
Private Sciiine. I do not know that it has been doctored, sir.
Mr. Welch. When yon saw tlie pictnre of yonrself and Secretary
Stevens alone and observed Secretary Stevens' discomfort when he
was queried about them, did you rush to a telephone and say to some-
one on the staff or anyone on the staff, "That is not fair"?
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman?
Senator Mundt. Does the Senator have a point of order?
Senator McCakthy. I just want to make it clear, Mr. Chairman, if
counsel is going to go beyond the authenticity of the picture, I have no
choice but to do likewise. I understood from Mr. Jenkins that if
there were a strayino^ beyond the authenticity of the picture, objection
would be raised. Whether you object or not, I frankly do not care. I
want to make it very clear that if we are going to go beyond the pic-
ture, I will do likewise.
Senator Mundt. Will the reporter repeat the question? The at-
tention of counsel was temporarily distracted, as was the attention of
the Chair. I would like to have the question repeated.
(The question was read by the reporter.)
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman?
Senator Mundt. Mr. Jenkins.
Mr. Jenkins. That question would go to the credibility of the wit-
ness, his disposition or lack of disposition to reveal the facts. I think
it is a part of the inquiry that the interest or credibility of a witness
might be shown. I think it is a proper question, on that subject alone.
That is, whetlier or not he participated in the practice of any alleged
deception or having learned of it if such a thing existed, whether or
not he remained passive or took any active step to correct a false im-
pression. For that purpose and that purpose alone, I think the
question is proper.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, may I say that I will object,
I would not object to the question, except I would like to mention the
fact that the other day it was pointed out that Private Schine was
getting special consideration because he was allowed to v.'^f' the
telephoncj
Senator Mundt. The question will be ruled in order.
And, Private Schine, if you can recall the question, you may answer
it.
Private Schine. I believe I recall the question, sir, to answer it.
When it w^as insinuated that members of the committee staff had doc-
tored the picture, and that this w^as a completely dishonest act, I was
naturally very much interested in watching the outcome of the pro-
ceeding over television.
My own personal opinion was the fact that Colonel Bradley, who
was head of many Air Force bases in the Northeast, and was standing
to the side, and was in the picture, in no way detracted from the
fact that the Secretary had requested that I pose with him.
I didn't know what was going to happen in the hearing, and I
didn't know what the members of the staff were going to testify to.
And I felt that they had all of the facts. I had complied with Mr.
Jenkins request that I produce the picture. And I have no direct
contact with the staff during the hearing anyway, and I certainly
have been more than willing to cooperate in any way I can and
produce any and all information concerning the picture or anything
else. And that is what I am doing right now, sir.
464 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Mr. Welch. Were you shocked when you saw the picture from your
wall published, minus one-third of the characters who appeared on
your wall ?
Private Schine. Was I shocked, sir?
Mr. Welch. Yes ?
Private Schine. I was not shocked.
Mr. Welch. Were you surprised ?
Private Schine. When I saw this picture published, sir?
Mr. Welch. The picture that had hung on your wall, with three
characters in it, when you saw it published in the papers, with but
two characters, were you shocked, sir ?
Private Schine. I have not been shocked lately at anything the
newspapers of the country publish, sir.
Mr. Welch. Were you surprised?
Private Schine. I was not, sir; and I expect to read anything in
the newspapers these days, sir.
Mr. Welch. Were you saddened?
Private Schine. Was I saddened, sir, about what?
Mr. Welch. About the missing Colonel Bradley in your picture?
Private Schine. I think it is fairly clear, sir, what happened; and
anythinoj that isn't clear will be brought out here at this time.
Mr. Welch. It was not clear to you when you saw in the pictures
what had happened, was it. Private ?
Private Schine. At that time there had been no testimony about the
incident, sir.
Mr. Welch. Well, you recognized what you saw in the paper as
two-thirds of the picture that had hung on your wall, did you not?
Private Schine. I did not see the papers, sir, until the day following
the hearing.
Mr. Welch. But when you saw it, you recognized it as two-thirds
of what had hung on your wall, did you not ?
Private Schine. As I recall, I believe that the press published both
pictures, the one of Secretary Stevens and myself, which is a print
taken apparently from a copy of a picture and enlarged, plus the
original which appeared on my wall in the office.
Mr. Welch. Do you know now. Private Schine, how Colonel Brad-
ley, one-third of the characters in the play, disappeared from the
cast?
Private Schine. I have absolutely no idea, sir.
Mr. Welch. You haven't learned yet ?
Private Schine. I have not, sir.
Mr. Welch. Then, Private, wearing that proud uniform which
you do, I acquit you, sir, of anything wrong, if there was anything
wrong.
Senator Mundt. Counsel's time expired at the proper time, and he
ran out of questions at the same moment.
Senator McCarthy?
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, I would have no questions to
ask of this witness, except I would like to have it established whether
or not the picture Mr. Welch produced was actually the blowup of the
picture that had been introduced in evidence the day before.
Senator Mundt. If you will yield to counsel at this time? He is
prepared to pursue. ,
Senator McCarthy. I would rather have counsel do that.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 465
Senator Mundt. Mr. Jenkins.
Senator McCarthy. There is only one question; I have just one
question. What is your rating as of today ?
Private Schine. I am a private, sir.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Jenkins.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Schine, I show you another photogi'aph which I
believe all parties here concede is a blowup, shall Ave say, of a pho-
tograph in which the Secretary of the Army, you. Private Schine, and
Colonel Bradley are shown, and perhaps the arm or the arm coat of a
fourth person to the immediate rio;ht of Colonel Bradley. I will ask
one of these gentlemen to pass that blown up photograph to you.
Private Schine. I can see it from here, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. I will ask you to examine it carefully, and state
wdiether or not you have ever seen that ]:)hotograph before, or any
duplicate of it, or the negative of it or the print of it.
Private Schine. I believe I saw that one on television, sir, and I
have never seen any negative or print of it.
JNIr. Jenkins. Is that the first time that you ever saw it, on tele-
vision, during these proceedings ?
Private Schine. It is, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Was that after you had delivered to the office of Mr.
Cohn the first photograph about which you were questioned today?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Do you see an arm or arm coat or sleeve of a fourth
person in this photograph ?
Private Schine. I do, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Do you understand that this photograph was intro-
duced by counsel — by Mr. Stevens and/or Mr. Adams ; do you under-
stand that, either through themselves or through their attorney?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Do you have any way, whatever, of accounting for
this photograph that I now show you or of including any facts to this
committee that would shed any light upon it?
Private Schine. No, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Other than that it is a photograph of the Secretary
of the Army, of you, Colonel Bradley, and a part of some fourth
person ?
Private Schine. May I see the other photograph, sir?
Mr. Jenkins. May I ask which one?
Private Schine. The one that was on my wall.
Mr. Jenkins. I thought it was before you.
I will ask you to examine, Mr. Schine, the first photograph about
which you were questioned, and which was taken from your office in
New York City, and state whether or not there is shown in it a fourth
party or the arm of a fourth party?
(Photograph referred to was shown to the witness.)
Private Schine. No, sir, there is no arm of another party in the
photograph that hung on my w^all, which was sent to me b}^ the Air
Force.
Mr. Jenkins. Would you or not say that the two photographs are
different or are you able to express any opinion on that subject?
Private Schine. I would say that they are different prints, and
as to whether they came from the same negative or not, sir, I do not.
466 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
May I see this one a little closer, sir, to look at some of the expres-
sions?
(The photograph referred to was handed to the witness.)
Private Schine. My own personal opinion
Mr. Jenkins. May I ask you to hold this photograph, and there is
another one that I want to ask you but you may answer the last ques-
tion, ]\Ir. Schine.
Private Schine. My own personal opinion, sir, is that the darkroom
of the Air Force saw fit to cut the picture of Secretary Stevens and
me down to show just three individuals.
JMr. Jenkins. May I ask you this question ?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Will you examine both pictures to the immediate left
of the Secretary, which would be the right side of the picture as you
look at it ?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. And the left side of the picture, as the Secretary and
you and Colonel Bradley stand.
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Do you note any differences there?
Private Schine. I note very little difference, sir, in the two pictures.
I cannot say that they are taken from the same negative, possibly.
Mr. Jenkins. Will you examine particularly the insignia ?
Private Schine. Yes, sir, it looks as if they are taken from the same
negative, although the two photographers could have been standing
close to each other, and I don't know, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions.
Senator Mundt. W^ell, the Chair was completely unable to follow
this testimony because he was looking at the photographs from the
rear throughout, and so I have no questions.
Perhaps Senator McClellan will have one.
I wonder if we could have the pictures presented up here, where
the rest of the committee can see them.
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman
Senator Mundt. Have you a point of order ?
Mr. Jenkins. Do you want those filed as exhibits? Should they be
filed as exhibits ? I think perhaps they should be.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman
Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy.
Senator McCarthy. I yielded to counsel because I thought he wanted
to develop this point, on the assumption I would be able to question
when he got through*. I have no objection to waiting until we go
around, though, if the Chair would prefer.
In the meantime, could I see those pictures?
Senator Mundt. Yes, I think we had better go around, probably,
and we will get around to you.
Senator McClellan.
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, if it would serve the con-
venience of the Senator to pursue this particular line of questions,
1 am glad to let him do so at this time.
Senator Mundt. Without objection, then, in behalf of any member
of the committee, we will now allocate 10 minutes to Senator Mc-
Carthy. The Chair hears no objection.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 467
Senator INfcCartliy for 10 minutes.
Senator McCarthy. ]\Ir. Schine, 1 don't know if we should try to
make you an exi)ort on i)liotography but in looking at tlie pictures,
I find that the picture which you sent to Mr. Jenkins is different in
many details from the jiieture that Mr. Welch submitted. He sub-
mitted it, and informed the connnittee that they were the same picture.
I assume, if it is not the same picture, it was not the result of
any evil intent on the part of JNIr. Welch. I assume he was honestly
mistaken. But you will note, if you will look— I wish there were
some way that we could both look at it together. You will note,
if you look at the picture, Mv. Schine, that the picture which you
submitted differs from the one Mr. Welch submitted insofar as the
insignia at Mr. Stevens' left is concerned; also insofar as the disap-
])earance of the fourth man from the picture is concerned. So can
we safely say this: that the picture which you submitted is not the
same picture in all detail as the one which Mr. Welch submitted?
Private Scihxe. Yes, sir, I can say that they are different prints.
There is no doubt about that.
Senator McCarthy. You would have no way of knowing, of course,
whether different photographers took them or whether the same
photograplier took tliem at succeeding moments?
Private Schine. No, sir. As I remember, there were two photogra-
phers, and I have never seen any other pictures that they took unless
these are two of them.
Senator McCarthy. May I say, Mr. Chairman, that I frankly can-
not see any great importance to this. We have the same pleased
expression on Mr. Schine's face, the same grim smile on Mr. Stevens'
face, that we have in one picture as in the other. I would not care to
spend any more time on that.
Senator Mundt. Does counsel have any further questions?
Mr. Jexkixs. Mr. Schine, I ask you to file the picture you sent or
had sent from your office in New York City, for the purposes of identi-
fication, as exhibit 3, and the large blown-up photograph as exhibit
4 ; and I ask the reporter to so identify those photographs.
That is all I care to ask.
Senator Mundt. The exhibits will be accepted and recorded.
(The photographs mentioned above were marked as "Exhibit No.
3 and Exhibit No. 4" and will be found in the files of the svibcom-
mittee.)
The Chair has no further questions of Mr. Schine at this time.
Senator McClellan ?
Private Schixe. Sir, the large picture is not mine. The other one,
it is my pleasure, sir, to attach to the testimony.
Mr. Jexkixs. It is merely a formal matter for the purpose of
identifying those.
Private Schixe. Yes, sir.
Senator Muxdt. The Chair will accept the exhibit from counsel if
that is permissible, and we will have it in the record.
Senator McClellan?
Senator INIcClellax^. Mr. Schine, as I understood your testimony,
you haA'e never seen this picture that came from your wall from the
46620°— 54— pt. 12 4 ♦
468 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
time that you brou«'lit it to Wasliin<itoii and delivorod it to the man
wliom you have identitied^
Private Schine. 1 did not open tiie pac'l<a»re, sir. 1 o])ened it in
my office when I oot there, to make certain that tliis was the picture
of" Secretary Stevens and myself, the one that Mr. Jenkins had re-
quested. Then I asked one of the "ii'ls in the office to wrap it up
aijain, and I brou^'ht it in that form to Iioom 101, where I gave it
to Mr. Anastos.
Senator McClkllax. Tluil would nu'an yim had not seen it since;
is that your testimony^
Private Schixe. jVo, sir.
Mr. Jexkixs. Had you, in com])any with othoi's. had some pictures,
lookiuii' fit tliem since then, that von recall i
]-*rivate Schixe. Have 1 liad what, sir?
Senator McCi.ei.lax. We will nsake it a little more sjiecific. Do
you recall whether you had diimer last Friday niijht at the Colony
House, riofht across from the ]\Ja\i1ower HoteH
Private Schixe. I do not recall havino: dinner there, sir.
Senator IVIcClellax^. Do you say you did or did not?
Private Schixe. 1 think 1 was asked to come in there, and 1 believe
1 had some ice cream, sir.
Senator McCletj.an. By whcm? Who were you in com])any with
at the time i
Private Schixe. Members of tlie staff, sir.
Senator ^rcCLEiXAX^ Members of the staff ?
Private Schixe. Yes, sir.
Senator ]\IcCr.Ei,E\x. Will you
Private Schixe. This was not Friday, sir. It mi<>ht have been
Friday, sir; I do not believe it was, sir.
Senator ]\fcri.i:rj.Ax. It was since aou delivered the picture, was
it not (
Private Schixe. Yes, sir; 1 believe it was.
Senator McCleli,ax. Since then. Did you at that time, wdth the
others, have some pictures there examinino- them (
Private SciriXE. Have some pictures, sir?
Senator McCleelax. Yes, sir, at that time. If so, state whether
this i^icture was in the number.
Private Schixe. No. sir. Tliis pictiire — 1 had not seen this ])icture,
sir. until this morninir.
Senator McCeei.lax. That is what I understood you to say. I am
tryinoj to clear u]) somethin*;- that is just as much in your interest as
anyone else's.
Private Schixe. Yes. sir.
Senator McCi.ei.i.ax. Did you at (hat time ha\-e some other pictures
there that you were examining ?
Private Schixe. 1 may have, sir.
S^-nator McCeeeeax. Do you recall ?
Private Schixe. Yes, sir, I did. I h.ad another jiicture, sir.
Senator McCi.ei.eax. AVhat ))iclure was that? All I am interested
in, was it this picture or one tlitferent to this?
Private Schixe. This was a picture of members of the staff. Sena-
tor McCarthy, and General Lawton.
Senator JNIcCeeleax. How many diff'ei-ent pictures did you have
there at the time?
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 469
Priviile ScnixK. Just one, sir.
Senator McCi-Ei.i.an. Just one picture?
Private Sciiixi:. Yes, sir.
Senator McClki.lax. You now recall that incident?
I'rivr.te Sciiim:. I do, sir.
Senator McCi.ki.i.a.nd. That was, you think, la.^t Fiiday ni^ht?
Private Schine. I don't believe it was Friday, sii'. I believe it was
-onietime last week.
Senator McC'lellax. It may have no sianificance at all.
Private Sciiixe. Yes. sir.
Senator McCleeeax. But 1 wanted to let you clear it up.
Private Sciiixe. Yes. sir.
Senator McC'eeeeax. You say this ])icture was not there?
Private Sciiixe. It definitely was not, sir.
S^'uator McCi.EEEAX. Was the other picture about the same size
a< tliis'
Private Sciiixe. I am not sure wliether they were the same size.
Senator McCleelax. Whether they were — I thou<rht you said there
wa • only one.
Pi ivate Sciiixe. You asked me, sir, whether the other picture was
(he same size as this one.
S^Mlator jNIcCeeeeax. That is rifjht.
Private Schixe. I do not know, sir, whether they were the same
size.
Senator McCleelax. I said about the same size. I am trying to
dettriniiie whether this jiicture was there. If not, if there is one simi-
hir t'lar mi<i-ht cause somebody to make a mistaken identity.
Private Schixe. I believe this one is about an 8 by 10, sir, and
possibly the other one by 10 by 12 or 8 by 10.
Senator McClellax^. A little larper than this?
Private Sciiixe. I am not sure.
Senator McC'arthy. Mr. Chairman?
Senator Muxivr. Senator McCarthy.
Senator McCarthy. For the benefit of Senator McClellan, my staff
informs me that Private Schine irave them the ])icture. They have it
down in the connnittee room. If the Senator would like the picture
that they were examininfi;. it will be brought u]).
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman. 1 believe I would like to have
the witness testify. I do not know that I care to see the other picture,
i am only tryin<r to determine if this picture was the ]iicture and,
if not, whether someone else might have been mistaken in undertaking
to identify this picture. I am asking him so he may, while present on
the stand — this picture or the authenticity of it or whether it was
doctored is at issue, and he may clear up this statement.
Private Sciiixe. I will be very happy to, sir. I remember the staff
requested that I ])roduce another picture. This was a ])icture taken
when the committee was holding hearings on Conununist infiltration
in the Signal Corps of the Army, and I now recall that the staff has
the picture. I understand they can ])ro(hice it if you woidd like them
to. Senator.
Senator McCleelax. All right. Let's get is completely clear and
accurate right now. You did not have this picture, but you did have
another picture at the time?
Private Sciiixe. Yes, sir.
470 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Senator JNIcCvLellan. Let's identify the time from your recollection.
If it were not last Friday nijrht, when was it?
Private Schine. It mij^ht have been Thursday night, sir.
Senator McOlellan. Either Thursday or Friday ni^rht of last
week ?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Senator jNIcClellax. Who was in the party with you ? Name those.
Private Schixe. I think that JNIr. Colin. Mr. Carr, Mr. Juliana, and
possibly 1 or 2 other members of the staff'.
Senator McClellan. Was the man whom you have named as the
one to wlioni you have delivered this picture, was he present at that
time ?
Private Schixe. I really don't remember, sir.
Mr. Jexkixs. His name is Oeoroe iVnastos.
Senator McC^lellax. Anastos is the man I am inquiring about.
Was he present at that time?
Private Schixe. I do not recall, sir. I do not think he was.
Senator McClellax. That is all for the present, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Afc'XDT. Senator Dirksen.
Senator Jackson?
Senator Jacksox. Yes.
As I understood it, you went up to New York on what day last week
to get the picture ?
Private Schixe. I went on Wednesday evening, sir.
Senator Jacksox. Wednesday evening?
Private Schixe. Yes, sir.
Senator Jacksox. And you returned with it what evening?
Private Schixe. I returned the next day, sir.
Senator Jacksox. You returned on Thursday ?
Private Schixe. Yes, sir.
Senator Jacksox. Then you delivered the picture on Thursday
to Mr. Anastos?
Private Schixe. Yes, sir.
Senator Jacksox. Was that Thursday morning or afternoon?
Private Schixe. It was just at the beginning of the afternoon,
sir, I believe.
Senator Jacks()x\ Who did you come back from New York with?
l^rivate Schixe. I came alone, sir.
Senator Jacksox. You came alone?
Private Schixe. Yes, sir.
Senator JAf:Ksox. You testified that you had no direct contact
with the staff?
Private Schixe. That I had no direct contact with the staff when,
sir?
Senator Jacksox. Y'ou testified in response — I assume since the
hearing started, in response to a question by Mr. Jenkins you said
Private Schixe. No, sir; I did not, sir. I said I have had no
du'ect contact with the staff during the hearings, sir.
Senator Jacksox. You haven't talked with any one of the staff?
Private Schixe. Not while the hearings are going on, sir, be-
cause they are sitting right at this table, sir.
Senator Jacksox. You haven't talked with any one of the staff' in
the evening or any other time ?
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 471
Private Sciiixe. Oli, yes, sir. I have been available and anxious and
read}^ to cooperate in any way I can with members of the committee,
with members of the staff, and with the Department of the Army.
Senator Jacksox. I thought you wanted to correct that because in
response-
Private ScHiXE. I did not say I had not had any contact — period.
T said during the hearings I have not talked on the telephone with
members of the staff as far as I can remember.
Senator Jacksox. You remember during the formal hearings here
in the open ?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Senator Jacksox. But you don't mean after hours?
Private Sciiixe. No, sir. They have called upon me to do a great
deal of work, to produce many things.
Senator Jacksox. Is any member of the staff doing any work for
you and prepariiig anything for you?
Private Schixe. Yes, sir.
Senator Jacksox. So some of the staff are assisting you, then?
Private Schixe. No, sir. If I am asked by the staff to write out
something involved in a report, I feel free to call upon the staff and
ascertain the proper date or look at some of the records to help me.
Senator Jacksox. But you have not requested the staff to do any
work for you ?
Private Schixe. No, sir.
Senator Jacksox. That is all.
Senator Muxdt. Senator Potter.
Senator Potter. I have no questions.
Senator INIuxdt. Senator Symington.
Senator Stmixgtox. Xo questions.
Senator Muxdt. Senator Dworshak.
Senator Dworshak. I would like to see the document which was
offered in evidence a few minutes ago.
Private Schixe. Yes, sir.
(Document referred to was passed to Senator Dworshak.)
Senator Dworshak. Private Schine, do you have any understanding
at the present time with the investigating subcommittee of the Gov-
ernment Operations Committee to remain on its staff ?
Private Schixe. I beg your pardon, sir ?
Senator Dworshak. Do you have any agreement at the present
time with this subcommittee to remain as a member of its staff'?
Private Schixe. I am a private in the Army, sir, and I am not en-
gaged by the Senate subcommittee except insofar as instructions are
given to me to cooperate, Avhich I am ready and willing to do.
Senator Dworshak. Weren't you in the Army on November 24,
1953?
Private Schixe. I was ; yes, sir.
Senator Dworshak. You used a copy of the committee's letterhead
at that time?
Private Schixe. I believe, sir, that somebody in my office typed
that letter. I probably was infoimed that the picture had arrived.
I didn't feel that there was anything wrong — I don't feel there is
anything wrong with using that stationery. They probably had it
available.
Senator Dworshak. Are vou still usinff it ?
472 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Private Sciiine. I im not, sir.
Senator Dworshak. But you did use it on November 24 ?
Private Schine. Somebody in tlie office selected that for the letter,
although I don't see any official designation on there, sir.
Senator Dworshak. I didn't ask about that. I was just wondering
whether you were authorized to use this stationery after you became
a private in the Army ?
Private Schine. I believe, sir
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, I have been sitting here very
patiently listening to Senators go far afield. I thought we were ques-
tioning this witness, according to Mr. Jenkins' statement, in regard
to the authenticity of this photograph.
If we want to go into the question of whether or not he used a
piece of my stationery at some time and spend time on that, all right;
but if you are going to open this up, then I must go into side issues
also.
Senator Dworshak. Mr. Chairman, am I entitled to my rights as
a member of this commitee ?
Senator McCarthy. A point of order.
Senator Dworshak. Is that a point of order or is it not?
Senator McCarthy. It is a point of order that counsel stated that at
this time we would only go into the question of the authenticity of
the photograph.
Senator Mundt. The Chair would like to remind Senator Dworshak
that the counsel did suggest — I think it was before you returned to
the committee room, Senator — that the questions at this time to Private
Schine were to be addressed to the authenticity of the photographs, ^r
Senator Dworshak. I was over answering the rollcall and I didn't
hear that explanation.
Senator Mundt. That is correct. So Senator McCarthy's point
is well taken.
Senator McCarthy, do you have any further questions?
Senator McCarthy. No further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Counsel ?
Mr. Jenkins. Yes, I do have.
Mr. Schine, in view of questions asked you by Senator ]\IcClellan, I
now deem it my duty on behalf of this committee to ask you further
with reference to these photographs.
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. I understand you to say that last Friday evening
you were at the Colony Club or Old Colony Club in Washington.
Private Schine. I was not, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Last Thursday night ?
Private Schine. I believe it was Friday, sir, for about 20 minutes.
INIr. Jenkins. Across from the ISIayflower Hotel ?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. And that INIr. Colm was present ?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Carr was present?
Private Schine. I believe he was, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Juliana was present?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. You were present?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 473
Mr. Jenkins. You were asked bj Senator McClellan -whether or
not George Anastos was present, "i ou recall that ?
Private Schine. Yes, sir, I do.
Mr. Jenkins. Your answer was that you didn't remember ?
Private Schine. My answer was, sir, that I do not recall that he
was present, but I do not believe that he was.
Mr. Jenkins. Was there anybody else in the party outside of those
that you named, that you distinctly recall ?
Private Schine. I don't distinctly recall anybody else.
Mr. Jenkins. What time of night was that party given ?
Private Schine. I don't know that it was a party, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. What time the group assemble ?
Private Schine. I don't know.
Mr. Jenkins. You know what I mean, Mr. Schine. When did you
go there?
Private Schine. I came there after they had begun eating dinner,
sir.
Mr. Jenkins. About what time of night ? I don't know what time
they eat dinner. Neither does the committee.
Private Schine. I believe it must have been in the middle of the
evening.
Mr. Jenkins. What time is the middle of the evening?
Private Schine. Nine or ten o'clock.
Mr. Jenkins. Nine or ten o'clock. At whose invitation did you
come?
Private Schine. I came at the request of either Mr. Cohn or Mr.
arr, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. You went alone ?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Knowing that the assemblage was there?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Schine, did you take this photograph with you
hat you referred to, the photograph of you. Senator McCarthy, and
perhaps others? Did you take it along with you when you went
to the Colony Club ? What is that Old Colony Club ? I never heard
of it.
Private Schine. I believe it is called the Colony Eestaurant, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. The what?
Private Schine. The Colony Restaurant.
Mr. Jenkins. Let's pinpoint it. The Colony Restaurant?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Did you take that photograph with you?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. "W-liat was the occasion of your doing that?
Private Schine. I believe I was asked to, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. By whom?
Private Schine. I am not sure, sir. Either Mr. Cohn or ^Mr. Carr.
Mr. Jenkins. For what purpose ?
Private Schine. I believe they wanted it, sir. I don't know the
purpose.
Mr. Jenkins. What photograph was it — of you. Senator McCarthy,
and who else ?
Private Schine. General Lawton is in the picture, sir.
474 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Mr. Jenkins. As far as you now recall, it was a photograph of you
ttiree only ?
Private Schine. No, sir. Other members of the staff.
Mr. Jenkins. Then you, General Lawton, Senator McCarthy, Mr.
Colin — is that right ?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Juliana ?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Carr?
Private Schine. I believe there were six in the picture, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. What was the occasion of your being invited to come
to the Colony Restaurant and bring with you that particular photo-
graph ? Why did they want it ?
Private Schine. I have no idea, sir.
I\Ir. Jenkins. You found out, no doubt, when you got there, what
they wanted with it ?
Private Schine. I have had requests for many things, sir, in the
last several days, and I am trying to comply with all of these requests.
Mr. Jenkins. You were asked specifically whether or not George
Anastos was there, and as I understand you, you say that this photo-
graph that hung on your wall in New York City was delivered by you
to George Anastos.
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. You say you don't remember whether George Anastos
was there at the Colony Restaurant ?
Private Schine. I don't think he was, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. You first said, as I recall, that y< u didn't remember
whether he was there.
Private Schine. I am not sure that he was.
Mr. Jenkins. Do j'ou remember what you ate there that night?
You said
Private Schine. I had a butterscotch sundae.
Mr. Jenkins. You remember that, butterscotch ice cream.
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. It was not a large group of people, was it?
Private Schine. I wouldn't say it was a large group, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. You would say it was a small group?
Private Schine. Several people, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. How many ? You have named all of them, have you
not ? _
Private Schine. I don't know who I named, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Schine, what I want to get at is this, and I know
the committee wants to get at it. How is it that you — I believe you
are a college graduate, are you not?
Private Schine. I am, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. And you have served this committee as a special con-
sultant for some considerable time. That is correct, is it not ?
Private Schine. I have, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Now, Mr. Schine, do you mean to tell this committee
here today under your oath that you do not remember today, Thurs-
day, with whom you ate that ice cream last Thursday, 1 week ago, at
the Colony Restaurant here in Washington? Is that what you are
telling this committee ?
Private Schine. I think I can explain that, sir.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 475
Mr. Jenkixs. If 3'ou have an explanatioii, I am sure the committee
TTOuld like to hear it.
Private Schiste. I am a private in the United States Army, sir.
Iklr. Jenkins. That does not affect your memory, does it?
(Laughter.)
Private Schine. I think I have a fairly ^ood memory, sir.
Senator McCarthy. A point of order, Mr. Chairman. Couldn't
we let the private finish his answer I
Mr. Jenkins. If I have cut him off, I apologize. Go ahead. Go
ahead, Mr. Schine. I am sorry.
Private Schine. Since I have been in the Army, sir, I have been
subjected to many pressures. I have been called upon to do many
things. I have received many orders, quite unusual for a private in
the Army to receive, and I have obeyed them to the best of my ability.
Since I came to Washington, I have at the request of many individ-
uals attended many meetings, and this controversy has caused many
of them to work late hours, including myself. 1 really think it is
quite natural that I cannot remember who was at all of the meetings.
Mr. Jenkins. Well, Mr. Schine, your explanation, then, is as we
get it that you are in a sort of a state of exhaustion ?
Private Schine. I am not exhausted, sir ; and I think, sir, when you
were asking me abont the meeting on Wednesday evening, and you
asked me whether Mr. Cohn was present, and you said perhaps Mr.
Carr was present and perhaps other individuals were present, that
you suffered from the same type of poor memory that I suffer from
now.
Mr. Jenkins. I believe, Mr. Schine, that this committee believes
that perhaps I have been a little more busily engaged for the last
week or 2 weeks than maybe you have, and there is some, I regret to
say, disparity in our ages.
Private Schine. Well, sir, I certainly
Mr. Jenkins. But I am asking you about a simple event •
Private Schine. I certainly- —
Mr. Jenkins. To wit, a meeting of some 5 or 6 men, 1 week ago,
and when you said you didn't remember whether or not George
Anastos, who happens to be the man that you delivered this New
York photograph to, was present or not, I felt that I should explore
that subject further, and I still feel so.
Private Schine. I will tell you why I can remember that I gave the
photograph to Mr. Anastos.
Mr. Jenkins. Now, haven't you, Mr. Schine, been here some week
or 10 days?
Private Schine. Sir?
Mr. Jenkins. Haven't you been in Washington-— —
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Or at Camp Gordon?
Private Schine. I am not physically exhausted.
Senator McCarthy. The counsel stated to begin with that this
would be restricted to the photograph, and I have restricted myself
to that. And now we are delving into what type of ice cream the
Private ate last week.
Now, if this has some relevancy to the photograph, good ; we will
go into it. But I think there is a limit to how ridiculous we can
get here.
476 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Mr. Jenkins. I say, Mr. Chairman, that this goes to the relevancy
of the photograph; if the proof develops that 1 week ago, approxi-
mately, this witness was in company with other members of the staff,
whom he has mentioned, and had a photograph with him, I say that
it is a circumstance shedding liglit on the authenticity or lack of it
of these photographs. And I desire to pursue that examination
further, if I may.
Private Schine. INIay I finish, sir?
Senator Mundt. You may finish your answer.
Private Schine. Yes, sir; you see, sir, vrhen you sent me to New
York to obtain this photograph
Mr. Jenkins. I did that.
Private Schine. And other documents, sir, I was very anxious to
do that, sir, because I understood you were quite anxious to have
these things. And I went right to the airport, sir, and got on the
first plane. And when I came back from New York, sir, Mr. Anastos
met me at the airplane.
INIr. Jenkins. You have testified to all of that now, Mr. Schine?
Private Schine. Yes, sir. And, therefore, I do remember giving
him the photograph because he came with me to the office. And, as
a matter of fact, one of the staff came in and said, "Let me see the
picture of you and Secretary Stevens," and I said, "We had better
send this right up because Mr. Jenkins is anxious to have it, and so
we had better not open it." And I remember Mr, Anastos taking the
picture.
Mr. Jenkins. I understand that.
Private Schine. Because you were so anxious to have the picture
and the documents, sir, I was quite anxious to comply with your
wishes, and remember distinctly the incident.
As to what I gave to the members of the staff on that evening, they
have asked me for many things, sir. And there was no urgency
about this photograph; it was one of many things perhaps which
they have requested. And I really didn't pay much attention to who
was at the meeting. I merely came to it.
Mr. Jenkins. I didn't mean to cut you off.
Private Schine. I think they were finished eating, and they asked
me if I wanted anything, and I ordered some ice cream; and I be-
lieve I handed them whatever they asked for. And I think that we
all left shortly thereafter.
Mr. Jenkins. Is that the end of your answer ?
Private Schine. I beg your pardon.
Mr. Jenkins. Is that your answer now in full? And I don't mean
to cut you off.
Private Schine. I think that I can find out exactly who was there,
sir.
JNIr. Jenkins. I am not asking you that now.
Mr. Schine, when I met you in Mr. Cohn's office one evening, I re-
quested, after you had given me certain information, a photograph of
you and the Secretary of the Army, did I not?
Private Schine. You did, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Now, Mr. Schine, you now know that I introduced
as evidence on cross examination of the Secretary of the Army a pho-
togi-aph of tlie Secretary and of you alone, and you know that, don't
you ?
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 477
Private ScHiNE. Yes, sir.
iNIr. Jenkins. If you doivt know it, I will state it to you as a fact.
Private ScHiNE. Very well, sir. I know that.
Mr. Jenkins. It now develops that the photogi^aph is Colonel
Bradley
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Of Colonel Bradley was omitted from that photo-
graph, doesn't it ? And you know that as a fact I
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
]\Ir. Jenkins. Now we are trying to inquire about it.
You went to the Colony Club a week ago tonight, and you know
George Anastos, don't you ?
Private Schine. Yes, sir, I do.
Mr. Jenkins. How long have you known him, Mr. Schine ?
Private Schine. I have know^n him for several months, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Do you know him well ?
Private Schine. In fact, I think I have known him for longer than
several months, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Well, is he on the McCarthy committee ?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Amember of the staff ?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. You have worked with him day in and day out over
the course of the last several months ?
Private Schine. Well, sir, he came with the committee much later
than I did, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. And you were asked to bring a certain photograph to
the Colony Restaurant a w^eek ago tonight, that did not include a
photogTaph of the Secretary of the Army, weren't you ?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. But only a photograph of Senator IMcCarthy and
certain members of his statf, including yourself 'i
Private Schine. And General Lawton, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Do you know, and I ask you again, was any explana-
tion given to you as to why they wanted you to bring that photogi'aph ?
Private Schine. I think that they thought possibly, sir, that you
might want to have it.
Mr. Jenkins. Well, do you know why such a photograph would
shed any light on the issues of this controversy, Mr. Schine ?
Private Schine. I don't think — you mean the controversy over the
picture, sir ?
Mr. Jenkins. Yes, and the controversy between the respective par-
ties on this controversy. Xow, can you imagine why it would shed
any light whatever on what we are investigating here ?
Private Schine. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. You don't know ?
Private Schine. I think if
]Mr. Jenkins. Was it said or suggested to you — and you say you
thought maybe whoever asked you to bring it conceived the idea that
I might want it. Was it suggested to you tliat I had called for such a
picture ?
Private Schine. No, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Or even knew of its existence ?
Private Schine. There was not, sir.
478 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Mr. Jenkins, Wlien you got there with it, was there any discussion
about it?
Private Sciiine. There was, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. What was that discussion, may I ask ? Just tell what
was said.
Private Sciiine. "Here is the picture," and there was discussion as
to whether you might want to have it or not.
Mr. Jenkins. In what connection was it suggested that I would
want such a picture to shed any light on what this committee is trying
to decide ?
Private Sciiine. No particular connection, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Anything general ? Nothing in particular, but what
generally was said about it ?
Private Schine. I believe, sir, that the members of the staff are
anxious to give you any and all information — do you Avj'.^it vt to finisli?
Mr. Jenkins. All right.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, please.
Senator Mundt. Do you have a point of order ?
Senator McCarthy. I have seen competent, energetic lawyers work
many times in my life. JSIost of them have the same affliction. They
are so anxious to ask the next question they don't Avait for the answer.
I know ]\Ir. Jenkins is not doing this purposely, but sitting on the side-
line, Mr. Jenkins, frankly, you are not giving the private a chaiice
to answer.
Mr. Jenkins. Go ahead, Mr. Schine.
Private Sciiine. I believe, sir, that the members of the staff are
anxious to give you any information, documents or facts that will
help to present a full and fair picture of all activities relating to this
current series of hearings. I am not exactly sure what is in the minds
of the individuals who have the photograph, but I suggest, sir, re-
spectfully, that you ask for the photograph, and possibly you will
find it relevant and possibly you w^on't. Perhaps it is significant that
they haven't given it to you thus far. Perhaps they don't think that
you will find it relevant. Perhaps after you look at it you will find
that it is relevant.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Schine, where did you get the picture that
evening that you took to the Colony Eestaurant ?
Private Sciiine. I had it with me, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. You had it with you, but you had not been carrying
it with you?
Private Schine. I got it in New York City, sir^
Mr. Jenkins. When? At the same time you got the other
photograph ?
Private Schine. No, sir, I don't believe so, sir. I believe I got it
last Aveekend, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. For what purpose did you get it? Were you re-
quested to get it by anyone, or did you do it of your own volition, or
how was that?
Private Schine. I am not sure, sir, whether anyone specifically said,
"Bring me a picture of you and Senator McCarthy and General
Lawton," but I know that in getting together certain documents and
papers which members of the staff liaA^e asked me to bring to the
committee, I included this particular document, as I have excluded
others. I have been asked for many things, and I haven't made any
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 479
loiif; list. I have also been nskod for categories of things, sir, and
possibly I decided myself that this fit into a particular category
relative to the investigation by the committee of Communist infiltra-
tion into the Signal Corps,
Senator Mundt. My colleague to my left has called to my attention,
Mr. Counsel, that perhaps your question was misimderstood or the
answer was misunderstood. There is something which is confusing,
because I think Private Schine says that the picture he gave to the
staff members at the Colony Club a week ago tonight, he procured
in New York the last weekend. So there is some mixup there.
Private Schine. Yes, sir. As I recall now, sir, I am not sure
when I gave it to the members of the staff, but I think I gave it to
them at the Colony.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Schine, I ask you this one final question — I hope
it is. You say that George Anastos is a member of the McCarthy
staff?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. You know him and know him well, and you have
worked with him for months. That is correct, isn't it ?
Private Schine. Well, I wouldn't say I worked with him for
months, sir, but I have worked with him, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Yes, sir. Do you now tell the committee again — we
are inquiring into the authenticity of certain photographs.
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. You say you were with these gentlemen a week ago
tonight with a photogi'aph at the Colony Restaurant and, as I under-
stood you, you said that you did not remember whether George
Anastos was there or not, and you say that you had it comparatively
easy for the last week or 10 days.
Private Schine. I didn't say that, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. All right, all right, I will take that back.
Do you now tell this committee that you do not remember whether
or not on last Thursday night at the Colony Restaurant George
Anastos was present?
Private Schine. Do you want me to give you the exact day, sir,
and the exact individuals who were present?
Mr. Jenkins. No. no. It was last Thursday night, we understand.
Is there any dispute about that?
Private Schine. Yes, sir, there is.
Mr. Jenkins. Oh, well now. When was it ?
Private Schine. I have no pencil in my hand, sir. I have no notes
here.
]VIr. Jenkins. About when was it ?
Private Schine. Here is a blank pad. I have been trying to answer
your questions as quickly as you asked them. If somebocly will lend
me a pencil [pencil handed to witness] I will try to figure out who it
was.
Mr. Jenkins. Do that, please, as No. 1.
Private Schine. All right, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. And here is a calendar if you need one.
Private Schine. I have the date, sir. Today is the 29th, is it not ?
Do you know the date, sir? Mr. Jenkins, do you know the date?
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Schine, I am not on the witness stand.
480 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Private Schine. I am just asking you if you know the date. I am
trying to figure out the date, sir.
Senator MuNDT. The 29th, I believe. Right?
Senator McCarthy. Today is the 29tli.
Private Schine. Yes, sir. That is what I thought it was.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. The Chair would like to let Private Schine, if he
may, have time to think out-
Senator McCarthy. "Wliile Private Schine is thinking, would it
be proper to ask that the record be made clear at this time that neither
the Chair nor counsel notified me that Private Schine was to be a
witness. I think as an ordinary courtesy in the future, in view of the
fact that members of my staff have been accused of misconduct, I
believe I should have at least the 5 or 10 minutes' notice of who the
next witness wnll be. It is a courtesy which you extend in a court.
It is one we always extend in this committee. May I have a ruling
from the Chair on that as to the procedure in the future?
Senator Mundt. The Chair will endeavor to do his best.
Senator McCarthy. May I have the record clear, also, that I was
with the Chair, with Mr. Jenkins, up until sometime after 2 o'clock
this afternoon, and I think it very unfortunate that I had not been
notified who you proposed to call as witnesses. I know that there was
no intention of doing anything wrong on the part of counsel, but if
we could have that understanding, I would appreciate it very much.
Senator Mundt. The Chair is fairly certain that counsel did not
know much more than 10 or 15 minutes before Mr. Schine was called,
because we discussed the matter after I arrived in the committee room.
When I came into the committee room I was not sure then whether
Secretary Stevens was going to continue or whether we were going
to have another witness. I did not know that it was going to be
Private Schine until he was called.
Are you ready, Private Schine ?
Private Schine. Yes, sir. You see the questions have been coming
at me very rapidly, sir, and I do not know just what significance is
to be placed on the days or the dates. So when it was suggested to
me by Senator McClellan that I was at the Colony on Thursday
Senator McClellan. I suggested Friday.
Private Schine. He must have had reason to think I was there,
and I did not doubt that reason. But as I look at the calendar and
try to ascertain the exact date, and as I sit back and have had the
opportunity to think about the individuals present, I believe I can
tell you that the day was INIonday, that it was the 26th of April, and
that Mr. Carr, Mr. Cohn, and ]\Ir. Juliana were the only members of
the staff present. Mr. Anastos was not present.
Mr. Jenkins. Then it was on Monday of this week?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Which was 3 days ago.
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Today being the 29th.
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. So only 3 days have elapsed now since that assemblage
occurred. That is correct, is it not?
Private Schine. The assemblage? What assemblage, sir?
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 481
Mr. Jenkins. The getting together of all them — you know what I
mean — at the Colony Restaurant. That was Monday night of this
week ?
Private Sciiine. Yes, sir. I thought you meant the assemblage of
the material.
;Mr. Jenkins. And 3 days have elapsed now since the assemblage of
you persons occurred. That is right, is it not ?
Private Schine. Since that particular meeting, sir.
Mr. Je>nkins. That is the meeting at which you had this picture of
Senator McCarthy, you, and other members of the staff. That is rightj
is it not ?
Private Sciiine. I believe it was, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Now, Mr. Schine, it was your answer, was it not,
a while ago in response to a question by Senator McClellan that you
did not remember whether or not George Anastos was present at that
meeting. Am I right or am I wrong?
Private Schine. Frankly, sir, I had not until just a few minutes ago
focused upon a specific meeting. I thought Senator McClellan was
trying to ascertain when he asked this question as to whether the
photograph I handed to the staff at the Colony Restaurant was the
same photograph that I had that was taken at McGuire Air Force
Base. I did not know the date of the meeting was so significant — —
]\Ir. Jenkins. The committee may think it is.
Private Schine. So I have not focused on any particular date.
Senator McCarthy. Counsel, this is not a point of order but a sug-
gestion to counsel. I think for counsel's benefit and to keep the record
clear, it should be shown roughly how many nights this young man
has had his dinner at the Colony, so you will realize the difficulty of
focusing on any one particular night and telling you who was there
on any particular night.
Mr. Jenkins. The Senator, of course, has a right to bring that out
on examination of cross examination.
Mr. Schine, do I understand that since you have been back up here
from Camp Gordon you have met at the Colony Restaurant with
members of the staff on other nights ?
Private Schine. I have met them in a number of different places,
sir, and several
Mr. Jenkins. No, the Colony Club.
Private Schine. Yes, sir, the Colony Restaurant.
]\Ir. Jenkins. All right. A number of nights since you have been
back from Camp Gordon ?
Private Schine. I have come over there, sir, to meet with them
there, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Have you met with the members of the staff whom
you have named at the Colony Restaurant on any other occasions
since you have been in Washington or its environs from Camp Gordon
in connection with this investigation at which time you had any photo-
graph with you?
Private Schine. No, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Then
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, a very important point of order
now. I will ask the Chair— is this mike working?
Senator Mundt. It is working.
482 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Senator McCarthy. I will ask the Chair to call upon Mr. Stevens
and those in the military who have the information to give the Chair
under oath information as to whether or not Private Schine and others
connected with this investigation have been under CID surveillance;
if so, who authorized it and how many individuals are involved in
that surveillance. By CID you understand what I mean, I assume,
Mr. Chairman.
I think that is a very important point that should be covered now,
and I think we should order the Secretary to produce the people who
can give that information under oath.
Senator Mundt. The Secretary is not on the stand at the present
time. That is a question that might rightfully be propounded to him,
if to anyone. Certainly Private Schine doesn't know whether he is
under surveillance or not.
Senator McCarthy. This is not a request that is being idly made.
I think the Chair would want to know whether the civilians in the
Pentagon are spending money ; how many people connected with the
CID have been employed in investigation and surveillance of anyone
connected with this investigation.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman, that is a matter about which the Sec-
retary and other personnel may be examined later, of course, by
Senator McCarthy.
Senator McCarthy. If he doesn't get tired b-efore we can do it.
Senator Mundt. The Chair rules that Private Schine is not a com-
petent witness on that point.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, if the Chair please, I didn't
ask the Chair to interrogate Private Schine on that. I ask the chair-
man of this committee to order that information produced. If he
does not I will try and do it through cross-examination if the civilians
of the military don't get tired before I can ask the questions.
Senator Mundt. It is a perfectly proper question to ask the Secre-
tary at the proper time.
Private Schine. May I answer the question, sir?
Senator Mundt. The question will be reread.
Private Schine. I was present at at least the three meetings at the
Colony Restaurant during the past several days. I think that after
the hearings the staff have met with you. At other times I believe
executive sessions have been held. Sometimes they have asked me to
meet them at the Senate Office Building, sometimes other places.
On at least three occasions they asked me to meet them at 8 or 9
Ox 10 o'clock while they were eating.
Mr. Jenkins. All right. But you you were present with mem-
bers of the staff at the Colony Restaurant on only one 0(xasion when
you brought with you a photograph ; is that right ? Didn't you say
that a moment ago?
Private Schine. Yes, sir. Here is the photograph.
Mr. Jenkins. Very well. That was on Monday night of this week,
the 26th day of April. Is that correct ?
Private Schine. I believe it was, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Now, Mr. Schine, you understood Senator McClel-
lan's question, did you not?
Private Schine. I would not say that I did, because he asked me
about whether or not this picture was the same as the one that you
hung on my wall. At least, that is what I thought he asked me. Now
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 483
it seems that the day tliat I gave it to the staff is the question, rather
than whether they were' the same. So apparently I didn't understand
the question.
Mr. Jenkins. Oh, you didn't understand Senator McClellan's
questions ; is that what you are saying ?
Private Schine. Apparently I haven't, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Mt. Schine, did, you not understand that Senator
McClelian was asking you about a meeting between you and other
members of the staff at the Colony Restaurant at which time there was
a photograph present ? Didn't 3'ou understand that ?'
Private Schine. I understood he wa-s asking me about a photograph.
Mr. Jenkins. That was only one occasion, and that was Monda>y
night of this w^eek. That is correct. You have answered that before.
Private Schine. I don't get the question, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Didn't you tell Senator McClelian in direct response
to a direct question that he asked you, to- wit, whether or not it now
develops 3 days ago your longtime acquaintance, George Anastos,
was present, and you stated you didn't remember ?
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairmaoi, a point of order. He stated
he did not remember whether George Anastos was^ there last Friday
night. The counsel is now asking him about Monday night. Let's
be fair with this young man, who had no notice he was to be called
here. Let me make my point of order. Tliis is on a point of order-.
Let's have it clear here that this yoiuig man was picked up and set in the
witness chair and instructed that he could only lae questioned about the
authenticity of this photograph of him and Stevens. Mr; MeClellian
was asking him about a meetiiUg or dinner Friday night at the Colony.
Somebody else asked' him about a dinner Thursday night.
Now the counsel — I think it is completely unfair — you say to him,
"You told Mr. McClelian you didh't know who was with you Mondky
night." He did not. He told Mr. McClelian he didn't know who was-
with him Friday night.
Mr. Jenkins. He was asked, and he- coneedes that he was asked!,
and I am asking him now if Senator McClelian wasnt asking you
about a meeting at the Colony Restaurant when a photograph was
present. Isn't that what Senator M-cClel'lan asked you?
Private Schine. Yes, sir, he was.
Mr. Jenkins. All right. That is what I understood.
Pirivate Schine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. If you have now pinpointed the date as Monday night
of this week — —
Private Schine. I believe it was Monday night, sir.
INIr. Jenkins. Very well.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Have you a point of order?
Senator McCarthy. Yes. I took counsel's word for it when he said*
we would only discuss this photograph of Stevens and Schine. For
that reason I didn't go into other meetings at the Colony Restaurant
or elsewhere. I think we should make it clear now that if we are
going to interrogate Mr. Schine about what color ice cream he ate on
a certain night, who was with him on various nights last week, we
have opened the door far beyond this picture, and when it comes my
turn to question him I will do exactly as counsel' is doing — I will go
beyond the photograph.
484 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Mr. Jenkins. I did not ask him about the quality or color of ice
cream he was eating on that occasion. He volunteered it.
Senator MuNDT. That is correct.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Schine, this question
Private Sciiine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. You have stated that Senator ISIcClellan asked you
about a meeting at the Colony Restaurant at which a photograph was
present. Your reply was that you did not remember whether George
Anastos was there. I now ask you this question : State whether or
not on IMonday evening of this week, the 26th day of April, there was
a meeting between you and otlier members of the staff at the Colony
Restaurant here in the city of Washington, at which time you brought
a photograph which you apparently now have before you, and I ask
you whether or not on that occasion George Anastos was present?
Private Sciiine. Sir, I believe it was Monday night, and I do not
believe that George Anastos was present, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. Then why did you tell Senator McClellan a little
while ago that you didn't recall whether he was present or not ?
Private Schine. Because I hadn't thought about it at all, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. And why do you tell me now that you believe he
wasn't present ?
Private Schine. Because since I was first asked the question, I have
been given a few minutes to refresh my memory.
Mr. Jenkins. Can you say "Yes" or "No," he was present or he
was not present, and will you do it ?
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Jenkins. I think, Mr. Chairman, it is a perfectly legitimate
question, I know it is, and I think we are entitled to an answer now
without any interruption. I insist upon it.
Senator Mundt. There is no question about its being a proper
question.
Mr. Jenkins. The question is now: Will you say "Yes, George
Anastos was present," or will you say, "No, he was not present"?
That is three short nights ago, about which you have testified, Mr.
Schine.
Private Schine. All I can say, sir, is that I do not believe he was
present. You see, I did not have the picture of George Anastos, and
I do not believe he was there, sir.
Mr. Jenkins. But you will not say definitely one way or the other,
is that it? Is that what you want the committee to understand and
judge of the weight of all your testimony in the light of your last
answer ? Is that right ?
Private Schine. Sir, I was not paying particular attention to
which members of the staff were present. I sat down at one end of the
table and pulled out whatever they had asked me to bring. It was
at the close of the dinner. I would not say definitely whether George
Anastos was there or not, but I would say that I would be willing to
bet you
Mr. Jenkins. No, don't bet me.
Private Schine (continuing). That he was not there.
Mr. Jenkins. But, Mr. Schine — and I hope this is the final ques-
tion— you are content to leave it as it is, to leave your answer as it is,
and for these seven men on this committee to judge of the weight of
the testimony and of the weight they will attach to it in the light of the
SPECIAL mVESTKJATION' 485
last answer you made.. You are content to, cl'o tliat ; is that riglit, or
not ?
Private Schine. If the committee wants to consider
Senator McCarthy. A point of order, Mr.. Chairman.
Private Schine (continuing),. That my futui'e testimony shall be
governed
Senator McCarthy. A point of order, please.
Senator Mundt. The Senator will state it.
Senator McCarthy. I have a very important point of order. Mr.
Chairman, I think in view of the fact that Mr. Schine w^as called here
without warning, notified that his testimony would only concern the
photograph of Stevens, and he is a private in the Army, he is not
flanked with counsel — when the Secretary of the Army was asked
about charges that he deliberately made, put in writing months ago,
there was no criticism at all when he said, "I have to go back tonight
and think it over," even though it was material subject of his charges.
I think this abuse of the private who sits here alone,, with no warning,
is completely improper.
I am satisfied that the American people wha are watching this
judge the difference in the treatment of Private Schine without coun-
sel, without warning,, and the Secretary of the Army Stevens who is
given — let me finish my point of order— overnight upon request, no
criticism at all, no abuse. He is allowed to go home and figure out
the statement by consulting with his counsel. I think it is a very
unfair and improper thing to do. Maybe it will serve a purpose
because the American people are watching this spectacle.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Schine,, do you consider that I have abused you
this afternoon, in any way or to any degree ?
Private Schine. I would say, sir, that I am trying to cooperate
with you in every — would you like me to finish or do you have, some-
thing further to ask?
Mr, Jenkins. Will you answer my question first?'
Private Schine. I would say, sir, tkit I have tried to answer all of
your questions.
Mr. Jenkins. Now I didn't ask you that.
Private Schine. I am in the process of answering your question.
Mr. Jenkins. Do you consider that I have abused you in any wise,.
or to any degree this afternoon, in cross-examination of you?
Private Schine. Sii', I have tried to answer all of your questions,
to the best of my ability, and you have been firing them very rapidly ;
and I think that. I can try to answer them either rapidly, or with time
to consider more exactly the specifics that you are seeking.
As to, whether you have abused me or not, I can say, sir,, that if you
are abusing me, it doesn't bother me.
Mr. Jenkins. Suppose, Mr Schine, tha;t we take it slowly and easily.
Now suppose, Mr. Schine, that we take it slowly and easily. I want to
ask you the same question that I asked you again.
You have been asked about the meeting at the Colony Kestaurant
Monday night of this week, at which time you brought a photograph
which you now have before you. You were further asked whether
or not George Anastos was present. Your answer was that as I
recall, you were not definitely sure one way or the other ; that youi
certainly would not give a positive "yes" answer or a positive "no"
answer; is that correct?
486 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Private Schine. Yes, sir, because this was not a meeting, as sucli.
The members of the staif were there eating very hxte in the evening,
and I came in and went to one end of the table, and sat down to talk
with Mr. Cohn and Mr. Carr, and everybody left very shortly there-
after, and I didn't pay much attention to who was present.
Mr. Jenkins. Now, Mr. Schine, are you content to leave your
answer as it is?
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman
Mr. Jenkins. And for this committee
Senator McCarthy. A point of order.
Mr. Jenkins. And judge tlie weight it will give your testimony in
the light of the last answer you made ?
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Jenkins. Are you content?
Private Schine. I am content, sir.
Senator McCarthy. A point of order, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. State it.
Senator McCarthy. I want to make the very strong point of order
that this is the most improper exhibition I have ever seen. You have
a lawyer here who brags about being one of the greatest criminal
lawyers in the country, badgering this private and he has told him
10 times now that he doesn't know whether or not George Anastos
was there, but to the best of his recollection Anastos was not there.
He can't gain anything further by badgering this Army private. I
think it is indecent, and I think the Chair should condemn it.
Senator Mundt. The Chair believes that the counsel is proceeding
with complete propriety, in doing the same thing in a searching way
with this witness as he did with Secretary Stevens; and if this witness
should decide that he wants to have time to think it over, and Mr.
Stevens did make such a request, I am sure the Chair and committee
will give him the same consideration.
The Chair overrules the point of order.
Private Schine. I have already asked whether Mr. Jenkins wants
me to find out for certain who was there.
Senator McCarthy. A question, Mr. Chairman, a formal point of
order. May I ask now for my future information how many times
we will go on and sit here and have this question reasked, and how
many times it can be asked over before it is badgering.
Senator Mundt. The Chair will rule that counsel should continue
to ask questions of witnesses, until he thinks he has exhausted every
possibility of getting every bit of information that they have.
Mr. Jenkins. I will discontinue the questioning of this witness
when I get an answer. And allow me to make this further statement :
It was stated by Senator McCarthy just now, publicly, that counsel
for this committee bragged about being a great criminal lawyer or the
greatest in the country, or in Tennessee. The Senator was never
more wrong in his life.
I am bragging about one thing and one thing only, and that is that
to the best of my ability I am pursuing this investigation in order to
develop the facts, let the chips fall where they will, and regardless
of personalities. That is all that I am bragging about. And I brag
about it.
Now, Mr. Schine, if you will give me an answer to this question,
yes or no, I shall have finished with you.
SPECIAL mVESTIGATlON 487
I can ask it,, and I can ask it jjust in tlw most gentle tones of wliicli
I am capable. You were asked whether oi* not you attended a meeting
at the Colony Restaurant, at which time you and other members of
the committee were present, at which time you carried with you a
photo<2:raph which you have exhibited;' aivd your answer was in the
aflirmative. And you further answered tliat it occurred on Monday
night, the 26tli day of this montli, and yoii were further asked if
George Anastos, whom you say you have known for months was
present on thsit occasion, and wlioi is likewise a member of the com-
mittee, ond your reply Avas that you refused to state d'eEnitely whether
he was there or whether he wasn't there.
I now ask you, are you content to allow this investigating com-
mittee to, evaluate your testimony given here today, in the light of
your refusal to say whether Anastos was present Monday night or
not? Are you or are you not ?
Private Sciiine. The committee, sir, as far as I am concerned, will
judge me not merely by the testimony of a few minutes, but by my
entire testimony. If they wish to judge my credibility by questions
about dates, I have no way of stopping them, sir, and I am certainly
content that they do that.
Mr. Jexkins. And you were given an opportunity to have counsel
here this afternoon I
Private Sciiine. Sir, I was told when I was called to this room tllmt:
I would be asked about the photograph that was taken at McGuire Air
Force Base, and I was given about 5 minutes' notice to refresh my
memory ©n tlie matter of the photograph taken at McGuire Air Force
Base. 1 was not told that I would be asked about anything else, sir..
Mr. JE]^JKI?^^s. Do, you now desire counsel?
Private Schine.. I think, sir,, that at least I should talk with counsel
abo at whether I should have counsel or not, sir.
Mr. Jexkins. Mr. Chairman, in view of that answer, I think that
it would be improper and unfair for me to pursue this cross-exani'-.
ination any further. And I shall not do so until Private Schine
has decided whether or not he desires counsel present.
Senator Muxdt. The Chair has a question to ask, on which he will-
not require counsel. It has to do with the two photographs wliicli
the Chair did not have an opportunity to examine, except from the-
rear, up until the current colloquy has given him ample time to do so.
Will you hold those tW'O photogi'aphs. Private Schine, so that you
can see them and so that Mr. Welch can also see them, because I
want to be sure that what I ask is correct.
Mr. Welch will correct me, if I am wrong. There has been some
testimony up to now about there being two different prints because of
a difference at the left where a hand and an arm have been deleted
from one picture and included in the other, and the' difference in the
insignia at the right.
I ask you, Private Schine, to look at the bottom of the big picture,
and Mr. Welch to look at the bottom of the big picture, and tell me
wdiether I am right or wrong in the fact that in the big picture the
bottom of Colonel Bradley's coat looks to be a couple of inches, on
the big picture, from the bottom of the ground, or from the top of the
groimd ? Is that right. Private Schine ? Of the big picture, and on the
b]g picture does it not show a space between the ground and the
colonel's coat ?
488 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Will you hold it up ? I may have my question reversed.
That is correct. Can you see the bottom of the colonel's coat in that
picture, the topcoat ?
Private Schine. I don't believe the colonel has a topcoat on, sir.
Senator Mundt. Turn it around. And I am all wrong, if that is
correct.
It is your coat that I am talking about and not the colonel's.
Is it possible to see the bottom of your coat in the big picture?
Private Schine. Yes, sir, in the big picture it is possible to see the
bottom of my coat.
Senator Mundt. Will you look at the small picture and see whether
it is possible to see tl\Q bottom of the coat ?
Private Schine. It is not possible to see the bottom of the coat in
the small picture, sir.
Senator Mundt. Will you look at the picture of Secretary Stevens,
on the big picture?
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Senator IMundt. In the big picture, is it possible to see the bottom
of the topcoat that Secretary Stevens has in his arm, showing a
consi derabl e
Private Schine. It is, sir.
Senator Mundt. Look at the small one. Is it possible there to see
the bottom of Secretary Stevens coat ?
Private Schine. It is not possible, sir.
Senator Mundt. Which would certainly indicate that either one
of two things must have taken place, either there are two different
prints involved, or else through some kind of photographic maneuver-
ing with which this chairman is not familiar, it apparently was pos-
sible to contract the bottom of the picture without contracting the
top of the picture. Because at the top of the picture, had it been
pulled down correspondingly, you would have pretty well decapitated
the witnesses who sliowed up in the picture.
Private Schine. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. I just wanted to have that in the record. And I
wanted Mr. Welch to have that because no one had called attention to
those two discrepancies prior to that time. I have no further
questions.
Senator McClellan ?
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, in view of this statement, that
the witness has made, that he would like to seek the advice of counsel,
as to whether he sliould have counsel •
Senator Mundt. Go ahead, Senator McClellan.
Senator Jackson. A point of order, Mr. Chairman !
Senator Mundt. Whatever it is, it will be overruled.
Senator Jackson. I am wondering how the photographers are going
to get out of this one. They not only have been standing up in front
but now they stand up in front and push the water on the chairman.
Senator Mundt. It is just one of the occupational hazards.
Go ahead. Senator McClellan.
Senator McClellan. Mr. Schine, I was saying to you, when this
accident occurred — I trust it is an accident — I was saying to you that
I would not, in view of the statement you have made that you would
like to consult with counsel to ascertain whether you need or shall
want counsel with you, and in view of that, and in an effort to further
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 489
expedite these hearings, I shall not ask any further questions at this
time.
Private Schine. I am prepared to answer any questions about the
photograph taken at McGuire Air Force Base.
Senator McClellax. Well, I am interested in the questions I asked
you first, about your interest in a photograph and whether it was this
photogi-aph or not, on another occasion.
Private Schine. As I testified, sir, they were different photographs.
Senator McClellax. I understand you have, but I do not want to
interrogate you further, if you feel that you would like to consult with
counsel before you proceed.
Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman
Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch has a point of order.
Mr. Welch. I am in a familiar role as I look at the clock. We are
1 hour overtime, and this witness is a young private in the Army. _ I
am old enough to know that it would be wise for him to consult with
counsel, as he suggested, purely on the preliminary question of "Do I
need counsel." I do not like to see a young private in the Army try
to decide questions of that importance on his own behalf, and I think,
sir, we should adjourn.
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, I was not going to ask the
private any further questions if he feels at all that he should consult
with counsel or with friends as to whether he should have counsel.
Private Schine. May I ask a question of the Chair, sir?
Senator Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I think the record should dis-
close that at the outset. Private Schine was advised of the right of
counsel, and I quite agree, and he was good enough to say that he
thought he could go ahead without it, and I think that in the light
of all the circumstances, there should not be any further questions until
he has had the riaht to give this matter further consideration as to
whether he would like to have counsel.
I may say that I was the one who suggested to the chairman that
that question be made clear to him, at the outset.
Senator ]McClellan. ]Mr. Chairman, I am not certain that this
picture has been made an exhibit to the witness' testimony, and this
is the picture that he says was present the night of the conference
he had or the visit he had with staff members in the restaurant, what
is the name of it?
Private Schine. The Colony Restaurant. .
Senator McClellan. If it has not been, I ask that it be now made
an exhibit to his testimony.
Private Schine. ]\Iay I ask a question of the Chair ?
Senator Mundt. You may.
Private Schine. Since I am in the Army
Senator Mundt. To deal with the question of the picture ?
Private Schine. Xo, sir, it deals with the question of counsel.
Senator Mundt. The Chair will admit the exhibit, and include it
in the testimony and now listen to your question.
(The photograph referred to above was marked as "Exhibit No. 5"
and will be found in the files of the subcommittee.)
Private Schine. Since I am in the Army, sir, and since Mr. Welch
is the counselor for the Army, sir, does that automatically make him
one of my counselors ?
Senator Mundt. I believe not. Do any of the subcommittee mem-
bers have further questions, or is it the wish of the subcommittee that
490 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
we recess at this time ? At the left we hear calls for recess ; and how
about the gentlemen at the right ?
Senator Symington. I think it is in order
Senator Mundt. It has been suggested, and I think it is quite proper,
that during the course of the evening, Private Schine, you consult
with your counsel and determine when you return whether you desire
to have counsel or not.
Private Schine. I must say, sir, that I have absolutely no counsel,
sir, and I don't know whether I can therefore consult with counsel
this evening; but I shall try to, as quickly as possible, find out from
some counsel whether I should have counsel at these proceedings.
Senator Munut. We will stand in recess until 10 : 30 tomorrow
morning.
(Whereupon, at 5-30 p. m. the hearing was recessed until 10:30
a. m., Friday, April 3), 1954.)
INDEX
Page
Adams, John G 453, 4n9, 400, 405
Air Force (United States) 452-455, 457, 460, 4G1, 403, 46(5, 481,487, 489
Air Force pliotograpbers 453,454,457,466,487,489
Anastos, George 455, 457, 458, 468, 470, 474-477, 479-481, 483-487
Armv (United States) 449,451,459,469,471,475,485,486,489
Bradley, Colonel 453, 456, 458, 461, 463-466, 477, 487
Camp Gordon, Ga 458,475,481
Carr, Francis P 453,454,460,470,472-475,480,486
CID 482
Cohn, Roy M 453-455,458,460,470,472-476,480,486
Colony Club (Washingtou, D. C.) 472,473,477,479,481
Colony Honse (Washington, D. C.) 468
Colony Restaurant (Washington. D. C.) 473,474,479-485,489
Communist infiltration in the Signal Corps of the Army (hearings) 469,479
Department of the Army 449, 451, 459, 469, 471, 475, 485, 486, 489
Fort Dix, N. J 452, 455
Fort Meyer, Va 451
Hotel Mayflower (Washington, D. C.) '- 468,472
Juliana, Mr 470, 472, 480
Lawton, General 468, 473, 477, 478
Mayflower Hotel (Washington, D. C.) 468,472
McCarthy, Senator Joe 448-451,453,458-461,463-469,472-475,477-480
McGuire Air Force Base 452,455,460,461,481,487,489
New York City 454,455,457,458,465,467,470,474-476,478
Old Colony Club (Washington, D. C.) 472
Public-information officer (McGuire Air Force Base) 460,461
Ryan, General 452, 453
Schine, Pvt. G. David, testimony of 451-490
Secretary of the Army 448-450,
452, 453, 455, 456, 458-407, 476, 480, 482, 483, 485, 486, 488
Signal Corps (United States Army) 469,479
Stevens, Robert T 448-450,
452, 453, 455, 456, 458-467, 476, 480, 482, 483, 485, 480, 488
Trenton, N. J 461
United States Air Force 452-455, 457, 460, 461, 463, 466, 481, 487, 489
United States Army 449,451,459,469,471,475,476,485,486,489
United States Army (Signal Corps) 469,479
Washington, D. C 455, 468, 472, 474, 475, 481, 484
I
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