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Full text of "Special Senate investigation on charges and countercharges involving: Secretary of the Army Robert T. Stevens, John G. Adams, H. Struve Hensel and Senator Joe McCarthy, Roy M. Cohn, and Francis P. Carr. Hearings before the Special Subcommittee on Investigations of the Committee on Government Operations, United States Senate, Eighty-third Congress, second session, pursuant to S. Res. 189 .."

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SPECIAL SENATE INVESTIGATION ON CHARGES 
AND COUNTERCHARGES INVOLVING: SECRE- 
TARY OF THE ARMY ROBERT T. STEVENS, JOHN 
G. ADAMS, H. STRUVE HENSEL AND SENATOR 

JOE McCarthy, roy m. cohn, and 

FRANCIS p. CARR 



HEARING 

BEFORE THE 

SPECIAL SUBCOMMITTEE ON 
INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON 

GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 
PURSUANT TO 

S. Res. 189 



PART 12 



APRIL 29, 1954 



Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Operations 




UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
46«a0» WASHINGTON : 1954 



Boston Public Library 
Superintendent of Documents 

AUG 9 - 1954 



COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS 

JOSEPH R. MCCARTHY, M'iscomsin, Chairman 

KARL E. MUXDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAX, Arkansas 

MARGARET CHASE SMITH. Maiue HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, Minnesota 

HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington 

EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachnsetta 
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Marrland STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri 

CHARLES E. POTTER, Mich)j,'an ALTON A. LENNON, Koith Carolina 

BicHARD J. O'Melia, General Counsel 
Walter L. Reynolds, ChieJ Clerk 



Special Subcommittee on Investigations 

KARL E. MUNDT, Soutlr Dakota, Cllairman 
EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN L. McCLELLAN. Arkansas 
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington 

HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idalio STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri 

Ray H. Jenkins, Chief Counsel 

THOMAS R. Pkewitt, Asiiistant Ooiin.sel 

Robert A. Collier, Assii^tant Counsel 

gOLis HoRwiTz, Assistant Counsel 

Charles A. Maner, Hecrctary 

II 



CONTENTS 



Page 
Index I 

Testimony of Schine, Pvt. G. David, United States Army 451 

EXHIBITS 

Intro- 
duced Appears 
on page on page 

3. Photograph 467 * 

4. Photograph 467 * 

5. Photograph 489 • 

•May be found In the files of the subcommittee. 

lU 



SPECIAL SENATE INVESTIGATION ON CHARGES AND 
COUNTERCHARGES INVOLVING: SECRETARY OF THE 
ARMY ROBERT T. STEVENS, JOHN G. ADAMS, H. STRUVE 
IIENSEL AND SENATOR JOE McCARTHY, ROY M.COHN, 
AND FRANCIS P. CARR 



THURSDAY, APRIL 29, 1954 

United States Senate, 
Special Subcommittee on Investigation of the 

Committee on Government Operations, 

Washington^ D. G. 
after recess 

(The hearing was resumed at 2: 40 p. m., pursuant to recess.) 

Present : Senator Karl E. Munclt, Republican, South Dakota, chair- 
man ; Senator Everett McKinley Dirksen, Eepublican, Illinois ; Sen- 
ator Charles E. Potter, Republican, Michigan; Senator Henry C. 
Dworshak, Republican, Idaho ; Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, 
Arkansas; Senator Henry M. Jackson, Democrat, Washington; and 
Senator Stuart Symington, Democrat, Missouri. 

Also present: Ray H. Jenkins, chief counsel to the subcommittee; 
Thomas R. Prewitt, assistant counsel; and Ruth Y. Watt, chief clerk. 

Principal participants: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, a United 
States Senator from the State of Wisconsin ; Roy M. Cohn, chief coun- 
sel to the subcommittee; Francis P. Carr, executive director of the 
subcommittee ; Hon. Robert T. Stevens, Secretary of the Army ; John 
G. Adams, counselor to the Army ; H. Struve Hensel, Assistant Secre- 
tary of Defense; Joseph N. Welch, special counsel for the Army; 
James D. St. Clair, special counsel for the Army; Frederick P. Bryan, 
counsel to H. Struve Hensel, Assistant Secretary of Defense. 

Senator Mundt. May the Chair say the reason for the slight delay 
is that we have received word from the floor that they expect a rollcall 
vote momentarily, and we are trying to communicate with the Senate 
floor now and find out if that is correct. There w^ould be no use in 
starting if we are just going to have two or three minutes and then 
have a recess again. 

We will know in a minute. 

(Whereupon, a short recess was taken.) 

Senator Mundt. The committee will come to order. 

The Chair would like to announce again that the guests in the com- 
mittee room are here at the pleasure of the committee, and we are 
happy to have you here and we ask only one thing, and that is con- 
form to the committee rules and refrain from any manifestations of 
approval or disapproval during the course of the hearing. 

447 



448 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION ' 

The Chair would also like to announce that we couldn't discover 
definitely whether the Senate is about to vote or not. A Senator is 
concluding a speech, and that is a little bit indefinite. So we think 
we had better start in because sometimes it takes as long for a Sena- 
tor to conclude a speech as it does to go around with a round of ques- i 
tions. ' 

I will ask counsel to proceed. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman, I desire to make this public announce- jj 
ment. Secretai-y Stevens has been on the witness stand as I recall now 
some 6 days. It is evident that he is somewhat exhausted. The com- 
mittee feels that out of deference to the Secretary and to the fact that 
he has been subjected to an examination and cross-examination for 
such an inordinately long time — in view of that fact, and in view of the 
fact that it is the wish of the committee that a question which arose 
either yesterday or the day before, to wit, with respect to a photograph 11 
introduced of the Secretary and Private Schine should be settled; 
and in view of the further fact that Mr. AVelch not only, as I under- 
stand it, concurs with us in our decision to have the Secretary stand 
aside, but requested that we do so for the reasons that I have stated, 
we have decided to ask Mr. Stevens to stand aside and now introduce 
proof with respect to the photograph of November 17. 

With this further understanding — and I desire to emphasize this — 
that no witness put on with respect to any of the circumstances with 
reference to the taking of that picture, or to the picture introduced 
as an exhibit, shall be examined or cross-examined by any member of 
the committee or any counsel on any matter save with respect to the 
photograph, the circumstances under which it was taken, and the 
introduction of the photograph ; and that I may, with all clue defer- 
ence to the members of this committee, interpose an objection if any of 
the members of the committee get off the reservation. 

Senator McClellan. A point of order. 

Senator Mtjndt. Senator McClellan. 

Senator McClellan. I suggest one modification : That any witness 
who testifies is subject to cross-examination w^ith respect to his credi- 
bility on any issue. 

Mr. Jenkins. I think that is elementary, because that is one of the 
issues of the controversy, and Senator McClellan, I agree that that 
would be a proper subject of inquiry. 

Senator Mtjndt. The Chair would construe that to be a relevant 
line of cross-examination. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman. 

If I may have attention of counsel on this also, may I say that I 
liave no objection whatsoever to Mr. Stevens stepping aside, if this is 
upon the request of his counsel on the basis that the Secretary is weary 
or tired and wants a rest. 

I would strenuously object to breaking into his testimony for any 
other reason. I think that any witness at any time — and the Secre- 
tary has been here for a long time — who, through his counsel says, "I 
am tired and I want a rest, and I want a recess," then I would make 
no objection. If it is for any other reason, then I would say it is 
highly improper to break into the testimony becanse I was right in 
the middle of my questioning. 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, I do not make any such request, and 
Mr. Stevens wanted me to make it entirely clear that he is a member 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 449 

of the Army, and that he would go forward if the committee required 
him to, 

I was told by Mr. Jenkins this mornino- that it was his intention to go 
into the picture incident almost at the opening of this morning's 
session, and I then gave my consent to that cliange. That consent, 
Mr. Jenkins, still stands. 

I am not unmindful of the fact that putting that testimony on will 
give Mr. Stevens a little respite automatically, but he would not, 
however, permit me to ask for quarter. He would prefer to go on 
rather than see any signal flag go up of any lack of courage on his part. 

I think it is clear, therefore, that if required he will go on, but I 
admit as his counsel I am prepared to have the interruption. 

Mr. Jenkins. I will state publicly that I feel it should be done, 
and the committee this morning in an executive session voted as I 
recall to follow the procedure that I have now suggested. 

Senator Mundt. It was not done by a vote, but it was done by gen- 
eral agreement. Senator McCarthy ? 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, there is only one reason on 
earth why we should break the usual rules we are following, and that 
is if a witness at any time feels that he wants a rest, he should have it. 

I may say that I have no personal sympathy for this particular 
witness. He lias initiated the charges asking for the wrecking of 
the reputation and the jobs of my two top men in my committee. I 
have many questions to ask him about that. 

Now, to break this up, Mr. Chairman, and to violate the rules that 
were adopted some time ago would be, I think, a mistake, unless the 
Secretary wants a rest and that is no disgrace. I frankly would like 
one myself. 

Unless he wants a rest I don't think we should dismiss him from 
the stand. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair is prepared to undertake, on his own re- 
sponsibility, to say that he believes that Secretary Stevens has earned 
a little temporary respite, having been subjected to questioning for a 
long time. 

Secondly, the rule of the hearings is that the counsel is to put 
on the evidence in the order that he deems to be best and most judicious. 
And he has asked that this evidence be introduced at this time. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman 

Senator Mundt. We will be glad to hear you. 

Senator McCarthy. I don't want, Mr. Chairman, to take up too 
much time on this. But let me say this : That the rule was, the rule 
that was adopted, that whenever a witness w^as on the stand we would 
alternate 10 minutes for each man available, until the witness' testi- 
mony had been completed. 

Now, to break up his testimony for other witnesses, I think is a 
complete violation of that rule. 

May I say, Mr. Chairman — let me say this. That one of the reasons, 
as the Chair knows, why I consented to retire from the committee 
and appoint someone in my place was that I had the assurance that 
there would be no change in the ground rules during the hearing. 
Otherwise I would not have absented myself from the committee. 

I just think — Mr. Jenkins, could I have your attention, too — the 
reason I want the attention of counsel and the reason I ask for the 
attention of counsel 



450 SPECIAL INVESTIGATIOl^ 

Mr. Jenkins. I beg pardon. 

Senator McCarthy. I think he is one of the best lawyers we have 
lijere, and I thinli he is completely fair and doing a gaod j.ob, 

Mr; Jenkins 

Mr. Jenkins. Let that point go in the record, ^Ir. Chairman, 

Senator AIcCarthy. JMay I say, to end my argmnent : That you 
are changing the ground rules in the middle of the game. And we 
had an agreement not to do that. I Avould do that if Mr. Stevens; 
ii> tired or Aveary ; otherwise, we have a man on the stand who has 
made the most grievous^ charges against the reputation and the in- 
tegrity of my committee and he should not. be allowed to step down 
merely for the purpose of regrouping his forces and discussing the 
matter with counsel. 

Senator Jackson. A point oif order, Mr. Chairmaiv 

Senator Mundt. May the Chair say, unless Senator McCarthy is: 
laboring under some misapprehension, that it has not been proposed 
by counsel that Secretary Stevens be permanently dismissed from the 
witness stand or that he be deprived of all of his rights as guaranteed 
under the rules to ask tlie questions that he wants to ask, imder the 
regular 10-minute rule, until all questions are concluded. 

Senator Jackson. A point of order 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, may I finish ? 

Senator Jackson. Who is recognized? 

Senator !Mundt. The Chair will recognize Senator McCarthy, or 
either one, or whoever addressed the Chair first. 

Senator Jackson. I make this point of order : It is, my miderstand- 
ing tliat the reason why evidence is now to be or testimony is now to 
be requested by the counsel is because of the incident that occurred on 
Monday,, with, ite£erence to a photograph that had been given to the 
counsel. 

I assume that it is always in order,^ ia order to. properly question the 
witness hi this case, that if evidence is introduced which was not as 
represented that we have a right to have that information before the 
witness finally steps down from the Avitness stand. 

I see no change in the rules. And I assume that a point of order 
properly lies against any suggestion that he should step aside nec- 
essarily because of weariness.. I would insist regardless, and I have 
insisted, as you know, from the begmning that w& clear up this photo- 
graph. 

Senator Mundt. The counsel, under the rules of procedure, has 
conti-ol of the manner in which the evidence is to be introduced. And 
I will be glad to hear on a point of order. 

Senator McCarthy. JMr. Chairman, one of the reasons why I may 
appear to be insistent is that I don't like to set a ]3recedent. I stepped 
oif the committee temporarily after certain- ground rules were agreed 
to by me and the committee, and we agreed mianimously. 

And I said as long as we follow those ground rules I would not 
act as a member of the connnittee. And one of the ground rules was 
that when a witness was on the stand, everyone on the committee, coun- 
sel for all parties concerned, would have an opportunity to, exhaust 
their examination before he left the stand. That is the rule. 

How, if there is something of tremendous importance, we have got 
to break into this for, or, as I say, if the Secretary is tired; otherwise, 
Mr. Chairman, I think that we are setting a, dangerous precedent. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 451 

Let me ask you this, Mr. Chairman: I understand now that you 
intend to put in evidence about a picture of Mr, Stevens and Mr. 
Schine. Could I ask, are all of the pictures that have been ordered 
from the military photographers available? If not, that is another 
reason why we should not go into this thing piecemeal. 

Senator JMundt. Counsel tells me that he is prepared to introduce 
the testimony in connection with the picture; is that correct? 

Mr. Jenkins. In connection with the picture that was filed as an 
exhibit to the Secretary's testimony earlier this week. 

Senator Symington. A point of order. 

Mr. Jenkins. Under date of November 17. With respect to that 
matter only. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Symington? 

Senator Symington. It is now nearly 3 o'clock. Therefore, 25 per- 
cent of the hearing has gone. So far we haven't done anything. 

Senator Mundt. The Senator will state his point of order. 

Senator McCarthy ? 

Senator McCarthy. Mr, Chairman, may I say that I am willing to 
leave it up to the pdgment of counsel. I withdraw my objection and 
leave it up to the judgment of counsel. 

Senator Mundt. Very well. The judgment of counsel is that we 
shall proceed with the testimony on the pictures, and Secretary 
Stevens will step down and counsel will call the first witness. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman, I desire to call as the first witness 
Pvt. G. David Schine. 

Senator Mundt. Will you stand and be sworn, please? 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will 
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God? 

Private Schine. I do. 

Senator Mundt. You may be seated. 

Mr. Jenkins will inquire. 

Will the photographers please be seated ? 

TESTIMONY OF PVT. G. DAVID SCHINE 

Mr. Jenkins. Will you please state your name in full? 

Private Schine. Gerard David Schine, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Where are you now stationed. Private Schine ? 

Private Schine, I am stationed at Fort Myer, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You are in the Army ? 

Private Schine. I am, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Schine, I want to make this statement to you 
at this time. I think it is proper. The inquiry of you at this time 
will be confined to one subject only. If you are asked any question 
with respect to any other issue or controversy in this lawsuit, in this 
controversy, I respectfully ask you not to answer it until I shall 
have had time to interpose an objection. 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. The inquiry is directed to a photograph allegedly 
taken of you. Secretary Stevens, and/or perhaps others. 

Senator McClellan. JNIr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Do you have a point of order ? 

46G20'— 54— pt. 12 2 



452- SPECIAL DrV'ESTIGATIO]Sr 

Senator- MgClellan. A point of order,, in the nature of; a point of 
order. 

I sliould like to ascertain before proceedinsr with, the witness whether 
tlie witness hag been advised of Ms right to have eomisel present, and 
if he desires to have counsel present at this time. 

Senator ]\Iundt. The Chair sustains the point of order. Will eoun- 
sel interrogate the witness on that point ?: 

Mr. Jexkixs. Mr. Schine, do vou understand that it is vxdup con- 
stitutional right and your right according to the rules of this com- 
niittee, permanent subcommittee, that you hav© a right to have counsel 
present to advise you from time to time during the course of your 
txamination ? 

Private Schixe. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkixs. Do you desire to avail yourself of tliat right? 

Private Schine. I have no counsel with me, sir. 

Mr. Jexeix^; Do you desire counsel with you for the purpose of 
conferring and receiving his advice during the iinqmry on this par- 
ticular subject? 

Private Schixe. I believe I can answer the questions regarding this 
particular subject without counsel, sir. 

Mr. Jexkixs. Please state where you were on November IT, 1953? 

Private Schixe. What date was that, sir ? 

Mr. Jexkixs. November 17. To call to your mind specifically what, 
T have in mind, the day you allegedly were photographed with the 
Secretary of the Army and perhaps otliers. 

Private Schixe. I was at Fort Dix, N. J., sir. 

Mr. Jexkixs^ Please, tell the committee wliether or not you were 
photographed on that day together witli otliers i 

Private Schixe. I was, sir. 

Mr. Jexkixs. Under what circumstances — did you. see the Secrer 
tary of the Army on that day ? 

Private Schixe. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jexkixs. How did he arrive at Fort Dix, by what method of 
transportation ? 

Private Schixe. In an airplane, sir. 

Mr. Jexkixs. Is there a landing field at Fort Dix, or is there an air- 
port near Fort Dix ? 

Private Schixe. There is one adjoining Fort Dix, sir. 

Mr. Jexkixs. Do you recall the name of the airport? 

Private Schixe. McGuire Air Force Base, sir. 

Mr. Jexkixs. Do you remember the incident of the Secretary ar- 
riving by plane on November 17 at McGuire Air Base ? 

Private Schixe. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jexkixs. Were you at McGuire Air Base when the plane ar- 
rived transporting the Seeretai-y ? 

Private Schixb. I was, sir. 

Mr. Jexkixs. Will you tell the committee the circumstances under 
which you were at the airbase while you were there? 

Private Schixe. I was ordered to be there, sir. 

Mr. Jexkixs. By whom? 

Private Schixe. By the commanding general of the base, sir. 

Mr. Jexkixs. State his name? 

Private Schixe. General Ryan, sir. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 453 

Mr. Jenkins. General Ryan ordered you to be at the McGuire Air 
Base to meet the phine transporting the Secretary of the Army? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Did you know or were you advised by General Ryan 
who the passengers were on that i^lane? 

Private Schine. No, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Do you know why General Ryan ordered you to 
meet the plane? 

Private Schine. Do I know now, sir? 

Mr. Jenkins. Yes. Did General Ryan tell you why you were to 
meet the plane ? 

Private Schine. I believe he told me, sir, that some of the Senate 
Investigations Committee staff, Senator McCarthy, and Secretary 
Stevens, were coming to see me, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Do you recall the hour of arrival of the plane? 

Private Schine. It was right after retreat, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. That would be about what time ? 
H Private Schine. I believe about 5 : 30 or a quarter of six, sir. 
1 Mr Jenkins. Still daylight? Was it still daylight? 
W Private Schine. I believe it was just entering the evening, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Who was on the plane ? 

Private Schine. Senator McCarthy, sir, Roy Cohn, Frank Carr, 
Secretary Stevens, John Adams, and there might have been 1 or 2 
other staff members there. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Schine, state whether or not on that occasion 
you were photographed ? 

Private Schine. I was, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. I want you, without my asking you the specific ques- 
tions — first of all, I want to state this : Do not state at whose request 
you were photographed. That is not a proper subject of inquiry at 
this time. I want you to state all other circumstances under which 
you were photographed and with whom you were photographed. You 
may proceed. 

Private Schine. I was asked to come over and stand in a certain 
spot next to a certain individual, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You asked to? 

Private Schine. I was asked to, yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. I will not ask you by whom, but as a result of that 
request, what did you do? 

Private Schine. I obeyed, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. With whom were you photographed ? 

Private Schine. I was photographed with the Secretary of the 
Army. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Stevens ? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Very well. 

Private Schine. And Colonel Bradley was standing in the picture, 
too, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Who took the photograph ? 

Private Schine. An Air Force photographer, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Do you know the name of the photographer who 
took it? 

Private Schine. I do not, sir. 



454 SPECIAL INVESTIGATIOJI 

Mr. jE?<fKiNS. As a result of tiicat ©cciirrenGG, wTiat, if anything, did 
yon do with respect to the photograph or the negative? 

Private Schtne. After the photograph was taken, sir, as soon as 
I was able to I went over to the Air Force photographers — I believe 
there were at least two — and I quietly asked them if they wonkl be 
good enough not to publish the photograph anywhere, that I had had 
to pose for it upon request, that of course I would like to have a copy 
of it but I would appreciate it very much if they would not sent it to 
any publications. 

Mr: J'ENKJxs. Was it not sent to any publication as far as you 
know ? 

Private ScHiNE. As far as I know, it was not, sir. 

Mr. Jtsnktns. Were you given at a later date this photograph ? 

Private Sctiine. Yes, sir. I believe it arrived at my office in New. 
York tlirough the mail. 

Mr. Jenkins. Do you know who sent it ?' 

Private Schine. I understand it came fi'om the Air Force photog- 
rapherj^sir.. 

Mr. Jexkins. The one who took the pictured 

Private Schine. It is from him or his office, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. ISIr. Schine, do you have an office^ ikt New York Gitj ? 

Private Schine. I do, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. I will ask you- whether or not the photograph I now- 
hand you for inspection is the one sent to you by the photographer; 
[Photograph exhibited to Private Schine.]: 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. 'Wliat did you do with that photograph, Mr. Schine? 

Private Schine. I asked the office to have it framed and put on the 
wall in my office. 

Mr. Jenivins;^ I hand you now a frame and* ask you to examine i#. 
and state wlietlier or not that is the frame in which the photograph 1 
you have before you was fi*amed and hung in your office. 

Private Schine. It looks like the frame, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. When was the photograph taken from your office?? 

Private Schine. It was on Thursday morning, siu,. or possibly ber 
fore that. 

Mr. Jenkins. Of last week?; 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Senator JNIundt. Photographers, we had an agreement worked out^ 
perhaps you were not here, that the photographers would take their 
pictures from a sitting or kneeling position, and not because' it in- 
conveniences the committee so much, but in fairness to the television 
people. We have received a great many complaints about photog^ 
raphers bobbing up in front of the telegraphic lenses. 

As an old photographer, I am sure you don't want anybody to get 
between you and the subject of the camera. 

Mr; Jenkins. State whether or not, on one day last week, you were 
in the office — being office No. 101, as I recall, in this building — with* 
Mr. Cohn and perhaps with Mr.. Carr, and perhaps others, at which 
time I was present and you were present ; and at wMch. time I was 
questioning Mr. Cohn aaid others present with reference to the facts 
of their case preparatory to presenting their case to the committee?' 
Were you there on such an occasion ? 

Private Schine. I was, sir. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION' 455 

Mr. Jenkins. Do not say what was said, please, but state whether 
or not on that occasion I was told by both Mr. Cohn and perhaps 
others and you who requested the takinc; of that photograph. Now, 
you can answer that "Yes" or "No." Was I told that ? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

]Mr. Jenkins, Do you recall that in consequence of that informa- 
tion which was impaired to me at the time I made inquiry as to 
w hether or not the photograph was in existence ? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And was told that it was in your possession, and 
hanging in your office, in New York City ? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

JNlr. Jenkins. And did I request that the photograph be furnished 
to me to be presented as evidence in this case ? 

Private StuiiNE. You did, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. In consequence of that, what did you do, just follow 
the ste])S you took in complying with my request and getting that 
photograph to me? 

Private Schine. I got in a taxicab, sir, and I went to the airport 
and got on the first plane I could, and I went to New York to get 
the thing you requested, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Did you bring it back to Washington? 

Private Schine. I did, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins, To whom did you deliver it? 

Private Schine, I delivered it to Mr, George Anastos, a member 
of the staif, 

Mr. Jenkins. Is the photograph that you delivered to the gentle- 
man whose name you have called, the identical photograph now 
before you ? 

Private Schine. When I took it from my office in New York, sir, 
it was Avrapped in brown paper, and I did not open it between the 
time I left New York and the time I handed it to Mr. Anastos, sir. 

Mr, Jenkins, But is the photograph you have before you now 
the one that you took from the frame in your office in New York 
City? 

Private Schine, Yes, sir, 

Mr. Jenkins. And is that the one that you delivered to the gentle- 
man whose name you mentioned ? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Have you seen the photograph since then, until 
today ? 
fc* Private Schine. No, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Did you see a photograph — and may I ask for it 
now ? 

Mr. Schine, I now pass to you a photograph purporting to be a 
photograph of you and the Secretarv of the Army only, and entitled 
at the head "McGuire AFB, Fort Dix, November 17, 1953," and I 
will ask you whether or not you have ever seen that particular 
photograph until now ? 

(The picture referred to was passed to the witness.) 

Private Schine, Yes, sir, I have seen this published in newspapers, 
I believe, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Since the original Avas delivered to the office here in 
Washington ? 



456 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Private Sciiine. I have never seen this print, sir. I have eeen 
copies of this in the newspapers, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Those were newspaper pictures of that photograph 
which have occurred in the last few days ? 

Private Schine. That is right ; I have never seen this. 

Mr. Jenkins. But you have never seen the original that I now hand 
yon and the one that I offered as evidence in tliis case a few days 
ago ; is that tight, Mr. Schine ? 

Private Schine. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins, Do you have any knowledge of any of the circum- 
stances — strike that. 

Looking at the original photograph, who is the man on your im- 
mediate right, as shown in that photograph ? 

Private Sciiine. That is Colonel Bradley, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Do you have any knowledge of the circumstances 
under which 

Senator Mundt. I think we are going to have to do something about 
these photographers and do it now. We have tried to be as lenient 
as we can, but we cannot permit the hearings to be interrupted by 
disorderly behavior on the part of the photographers. 

There will be no more climbing on chairs, and no more running 
around in front of the witnesses. We have asked you as courteously 
as we can and we had your assurances that you would live up to the 
rules of the committee. Now, we can go no further, and I will tell the 
young man who is the president of this group with whom we have 
worked, and with whom the photographers have cooperated with us 
very well up to this time, this type of thing is out From now on the 
photographers will be governed accordingly. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Schine, do you have any knowledge of the cir- 
cumstances under which the picture of Colonel Bradley was omitted, 
or taken from the original photograph ? 

Private Schine. Only through reading the testimony, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You were not there when such a thing was done, if 
it was done ? 

Private Schine. No, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You have read the testimony you say ? 

Private Schine. I believe I have. 

Mr. Jenkins. The stenographer's transcript of the testimony ? 

Private Schine. I have read some of it. 

Mr. Jenkins. That is the only basis of your knowledge ? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You did not do it yourself, is that what we under- 
stand, Mr. Schine ? 

Private Sciiine. I did not do it myself, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You saw no one else do it? 

Private Schine. No, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. No further questions. 

Senator ]\Iundt. The Chair has no questions at this time, and will 
pass temporarily. Senator McClellan. 

Senator McClellan. I have only one question, Mr. Schine. That 
picture that has been made an exhibit in this testimony, the large one 
now before you, from your recollection or from your knowledge can 
you say any such picture was ever taken of you and Secretary Stevens 
except in the group picture which you have identified 1 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 457 

Private Sciiine. I don't know, sir, how many pictnres the Air Force 
photographers took, but this picture is the one that I received. 

Senator McClellan. That is the picture you have received? 

Private Sciiine. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. I am asking the question if at any time, to 
your knowledge, did the Air Force or anyone else ever take a picture of 
you and Secretary Stevens alone? 

Private Sciiine. I really wouldn't know, sir. 

Senator McClellan. That is all. 

Senator Munot. Senator Dirksen ? 

Senator Dirksen. Just one question. To whom was the photograph 
delivered, the one that you brought down from New York? 

Private Schine. I delivered it to Mr. Anastos, sir. 

Senator Dirksen. Would you spell it, please. 

Private Sciiine. A-n-a-s-t-o-s. 

Senator Dirksen. A-n-a-s-t-o-s? 

Private Sciiine. Yes, sir. 

Senator Dirksen. You said he was a member of the staff? 

Private Sciiine. Yes, sir. 

Senator Dirksen. Thank you. 

Senator Munot. Senator Jackson ? 

Senator Jackson. Private Schine, you went to New York on what 
day to get the picture ? . 

JPrivate Sciiine. I went on Wednesday evening, sir. 

Senator Jackson. Wednesday — how long ago? 

Private Schine. Last Wednesday, sir. 

Sf-nator Jackson. A week ago yesterday ? 

Private Schine. The day before the hearings began, sir. 

Senator Jackson. That was as a result of the conference that Mr. 
Jenkins has inquired about in the office in room 101 of the Senate Office 
Building? 

Private Sciiine. That was at the request of Mr. Jenkins, sir. 

Senator Jackson. Who went with you on the trip ? 

Private Schine. Nobody, sir. 

Senator Jackson. You went alone ? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson. Your picture was on the wall in your office in 
New York? 

Private Schine. No, sir, it was wrapped up ready for me to bring 
back to Washington. 

Senator Jackson. How did it happen to be wrapped up to bring 
back? 

Private Schine. I had called the office and asked them to have it 
ready. 

Senator Jackson. Had it been on the wall ? 

Private Schine. It had been on my wall, sir. 

Senator Jackson. When did you take it off the wall ? 

Private Schine. I really do not know when the staff took it off the 
wall, sir. 

Senator Jackson. Your office staff. They took it off as a result 
of your telephone call? 

Private Schine. I really do not know, sir. I do not know when 
they took it off. 



458 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator Jacksoist. I mean, had this picture been on your office wall 
when you were last in your office in New York ? How long ago was 
that? 

Private Schine. It was not on my wall when I was last in New 
York, sir. 

Senator Jacksox. When was that ? 

Private Schine. That was 

Senator Jackson. A week ago yesterday 1 

Private Schine. No, sir. This was last weekend, sir. 

Senator Jackson. When did you ask that the picture be taken 
off your office wall ? Was that a week ago yesterday ? 

Private Schine, When did I ask that it be taken off the wall, sir ? 

Senator McCarthy, Mr, Chairman? 

Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy. 

Senator McCarthy. I do not want to spend time on a point of 
order, but what difference does it make when tlie picture was taken 
off the wall ? 

Senator Mundt. The Senator may have something in mind, and 
he has the right to ask the question as long as it is within the purview 
outlined by counsel. 

Senator Jackson. I think it is entirely relevant in view of the 
testimony previously given by Mr. Cohn, 

Senator Mundt. Tlie Senator will proceed. 

Senator Jackson. When did you ask that it be taken down from 
your office wall? 

Private Schine. I do not recall, sir. 

Senator Jackson. Do you have any idea? Was it in connection 
with the procurement of the picture for introduction in evidence in 
this hearing? 

Private Schine, Do you mean, sir, did I ask that it be taken off 
the wall immediately following Mr. Jenkins' request that I produce 
the picture? 

Senator Jackson. Yes. 

Private Schine. Tlie answer is, no, sir. 

Senator Jackson. When was it taken down from your office wall? 
When did you ask, approximately? 

Private Schine. I have no idea, sir. I have been stationed at Camp 
Gordon, Ga., for 3 months, or more, and I have not been in my office 
during that period. I do not know when it was taken off the wall, sir. 

Senator Jackson. You did request that it be taken off the wall ? 

Private Schine. I did not request that it be taken off the wall. 

Senator Jackson. You did not? 

Private Schine. No, sir. 

Senator Jackson. When you came back, you delivered it to Mr. 
Anastos of the committee, and it was wrapped up in brown paper? 

Private Schine. Right, sir. 

Senator Jackson. That is the last you saw of it? 

Private Schine. Kight, sir. 

Senator Jackson. That is all. 

Senator ISIundt. Senator Potter ? 

Senator Potter. I have no questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Symington? 

Senator Symington. Just one question, Mr. Schine. You say a 
picture was taken of you and Colonel Bradley and Mr. Stevens? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 459 

Private Schine. This picture, sir [indicating^]. 

Senator Symington. Who else was in the picture ? 

Private Schine. I see only three people, sir. 

Senator Symington. The blo^yn-up picture we had, had the hat and 
coat of a fourth. Do you happen to remember who that was? 

Private Schine. No, I do not, sir. I remember that they snapped 
several pictures, and I believe that this was one of the first ones they 
snapped after I had been asked 

Senator Mundt. I am sorry, the last bell was the vote, so we will 
have to stand in recess for perhaps 15 minutes Avhile the Senators go 
and vote. 

(Brief recess.) 

Senator Mundt. The committee will come to order, please. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, is one of my few points of 
order in order ? 

Senator Mundt. The Senator will state it briefly, please. 

Senator McCarthy. I have reason now to believe that the picture 
which was sent to Mr. Schine and part of which was introduced in 
evidence the other day, is entirely different from the picture pre- 
sented by the Army, which Mr. Stevens and Mr. Adams blew up 
and presented to us as the complete picture. If so, this a tremendous 
imposition upon Mr. Jenkins, the counsel. 

I would like at this time — may I say, Mr. Chairman, while nor- 
mally this would not be a point of order, it is the type of point of 
order Mr. Welch made, so I think following precedent I should make 
it. I think at this time we should have presented the complete 
picture sent to Mr. Schine and the blowup w^hich 

Senator Mundt. The Chair is ready to rule on the point of order. 
The counsel advises the Chair he is going to introduce all the pictures 
at the proper time, but now Senator Symington is part way through 
his 10 minutes, so we will go back to Senator Symington. All the 
information on the pictures, all the prints, everything will be 
introduced. 

Senator Symington, you had consumed about a minute. 

Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman, I wanted to say the picture 
which I got off the desk did not have, to the best of my sight, in it the 
arm and the hat that was in the second picture. So it may well be 
that we have a third picture here. That is the reason I asked the 
question. 

I have no further questions at this time. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Potter, I believe, is next. 

Senator Potter. I have no further questions. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. We will get to you in a minute. H;;ve you a point 
of order? 

Senator McCarthy. Yes, Mr. Chairman. 

If it develops that Mr. Welch or Mr. Adams or INIr. Stevens pre- 
sented a picture, a blowup of a picture which was not a blowup of the 
picture which was presented in evidence, then will we have everyone 
involved called, the same as was suggested before ? 

Senator Mundt. Yes, indeed. The Chair will repeat himself. We 
are going to get everybody in connection with that picture wlio cm 

40020°— 54— pt. 12 3 



460 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION^ 

slied any light upon it to testify. We want to get the truth. I think 
everybody does. Nobody knows the answer to it at the moment. 

Senator Potter had no questions. Senator Symington was last on 
that side. Is Senator Dworshak in the room? (No response.) I 
cannot see in. the light. He is on the way back from the rollcalh 

Mr. Welch? 

Mr. Welch. Private Schine, as I followed your testimony, when 
you were informed at 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch, will you keep your face toward the 
mike? We missed that. Will you repeat it, please? This will not 
be out of your time. 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, I have a habit of looking at a witness 
when I examine him. It causes me to turn away from the microphone, 
but I hope I have cured that situation. 

Senator Muxdt. Thank you. 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Schine, I noticed when you testified that you heard 
that someone was coming on the plane to see you, that you named the 
people coming in this order : Members of the staff. Senator McCarthy, 
and Secretary Stevens. 

It is a good deal to suggest that you remember the order in which 
you stated those that were arriving, but will you agree with me if I tell 
you that you stated them in that order ? 

Private Schixe. No, sir, I don't recall the order I stated the list of 
people in, sir. 

Mr. Welch. "^Yhen you described their arrival you described them 
in this order: Senator McCarthy, Mr. Cohn, Mr. Carr, Secretary 
Stevens, and Mr. Adams. Do you remember placing the arrival in 
that order ? 

Private Schine. I can't recall exactly the order I used, sir. 

Mr. Welch. If I suggest to you, sir, that you did name them in that 
order, would you agi'ee with me that I was correct ? 

Private Schine. No, sir. 

Mr. Welch. As you think over the group now, do they come to your 
mind in roughly that order: Senator McCarthy, Cohn, Carr, Stevens 
and Adams? 

Private Schine. No, sir. 

Mr. Welch. After the photographs were taken, you made an oral 
request that the person that took them should not publish them ; is 
that right ? 

Private Schine. I did, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And j^ou made a written request, also, did you not ? 

Private Schine. I don't recall having made a written request, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Did you say you did or didn't? 

Private Schine. I would say I didn't, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Is there someone from the Air Force here with a letter 
signed by this witness in connection with the questions I am now 
asking? 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Welch, I have before me a letter dated November 
24, 1953, signed hj G. David Schine, which was passed to me today 
and addressed to Public Information Officer. Is that the letter about 
which you are making inquiry? 

Mr. Welch. I judge it is, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. I shall be very glad to deliver it to you. 

Senator McCarthy. Could 1 see that, Mr. Counsel ? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 461 

Mr. Jenkins. Do you think it proper that Senator McCarthy see it 
first, Mr. Welch? 

Mr. Welch. I think it proper that he should see it. 

(Document referred to was passed to Senator McCarthy.) 

Senator Mundt. Time out v;hile we are examining the document. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy. 

Senator McCarthy. I agree with Mr. Welch this should be put in 
evidence but I think first it should be established who signed the letter, 
whether Mr. Schine or his secretary. 

(The committee examined the document.) 

Senator Mundt. Will you pass this on to Mr. Welch, please? 

(Document referred to was passed to Mr. Welch.) 

Mr. Welch. Private Schine, I show you a letter, or what purports 
to be a letter, on the letterhead of the United States Senate, Com- 
mittee on Government Operations, purporting to be dated November 
24, 1953, carrying in the lower lef thand corner of it the initials GDS : 
P'P, and carrying on the righthand side, "Cordially yours" comma, and 
in ink "G. David Schine"; and under thnt ink legend the typewritten 
words "G. David Schine." 

Was that letter signed by you? 

Private Schine. It was not, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Was it dictated by you? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Was it sent on your behalf ? 

Private Schine. It was, sir. 

Mr. Welch. IMay I read it to you, and you v •' 'i me, Mr. Schine. 

Private Schine. May I read the letter, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Indeed. You have it. 

Private Schine (reading) . 

Public Infoemation Officer, 

McGiiire Air Force Base, Trenton, N. J. 

Dear Sir : Thank you very much for sending the pictures of Secretary Stevens, 
Colonel Bradley, and myself. 

If any of the other photographs which were taken had of turned out satis- 
factorily, I would appreciate having those forwarded to me as well. 

I want to express my gratitude at this time for your cooperation in not re- 
leasing the pictures or any kind of press statement. I will remember my promise 
to you that if at some time in the future it becomes possible to allow publication 
of the pictures that McGuire Air Force Base will be given credit for the 
photography. 

This is signed apparently by somebody in my office, and it is dated 
November 24, 1953. This is the first I have seen the actual letter, 
although I recall having dictated that now. I apparently thanked 
the Air Force for sending me the picture, for not printing it; and in 
answer to their request, when I did ask them not to print it, I told 
them that I would comply with their request and give McGuire 
Air Force Base credit for the photography if ever the picture were 
printed — something I just remember I have not done. [Laughter.] 

]Mr. Welch. Private Schine, I suggest to you that if you and I both 
give them a plug now, they ought to be pretty well satisfied, don't 
you think? Will you join me in giving them a "thank you"? 

Private Schine. I have already thanked them, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Now I wish to ask j^ou, on the basis of this letter, if 
you were seeking to secure an exclusive print on your own behalf. 



462 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Private Schine. I was seeking nothing, sir, except what the pho- 
tographers had taken when Secretary Stevens asked me to stand with 
him for that picture. 

Mr. Welch. Yes; but you asked them not to release the picture, 
did you not ? 

Private Schine. I did, indeed, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And you asked them not to give out any kind of press 
statement? 

Private Schine. I did, indeed, sir. 

Mr. Welch. For wliicli I think it fairly follows — and I am not 
charging you with anything, sir — from that that you were seeking 
an exclusive, were you not ? 

Private Sciiixe. I was not, sir. I said nothing to them about where 
else they should send tlie picture privately. I merely requested from 
them after the picture was taken tliat they not publish it anywhere. 
I told them that I had to pose for it because I was asked to by Secretary 
Stevens, but I said nothing to them about where else they should send 
the picture. 

Mr. Welch. Are you suggesting, sir, that it was repulsive to you 
to pose for that picture ? 

Private Schine. I am not suggesting anything, sir. I am saying 
that at the time I made the request of the photographers that they not 
publish the picture anywhere, I have not seen the picture published 
anywhere, and I appreciate very mucli the promise they made to me 
that tliey would not send it to any publications. 

Mr. Welch. Are you suggesting, sir, that you were ordered by the 
Secretary of the Army to pose for that picture ? 

Private Schine. I am saying, sir, that I was asked by the Secretary 
of the Army to stand next to him and be photogTaphed. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Counsel. 

Mr. Jenkins. That matter is not a proper subject of inquiry, and I 
made it perfectly clear; but if Mr. Welch desires that his question 
and answer stand, I take it that it does not lie within my province to 
object to it. It sheds no light on the photogi'aphs, their authenticity, 
whether or not anyone is cut out of it. I would merely remind counsel 
of that fact. 

Mr. Welch. I will try not to stray afield, sir. I think I will stay in 
bounds. 

One more question, however, along this line. Did you ask Secretary 
Stevens' permission to mount it on your wall and give it publicity to 
tJiat extent ? 

Private Schine. I did not, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Did you follow the hearings in this room by television? 

Private Schine. Which hearings, sir? 

Mr. Welch. That we are attending today. Have you been follow- 
ing them? 

Private Schine. I have followed as many of them as I was permitted 
to follow, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Were you following on the morning that we had quite 
a to-do in this room about the picture ? 

Private Schine. I believe I saw some of that hearing, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Did you understand that I, Welch, was then suspicious 
that this picture had in some way been doctored ? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 463 

Private Sciiine. I do not know that it has been doctored, sir. 

Mr. Welch. When yon saw tlie pictnre of yonrself and Secretary 
Stevens alone and observed Secretary Stevens' discomfort when he 
was queried about them, did you rush to a telephone and say to some- 
one on the staff or anyone on the staff, "That is not fair"? 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman? 

Senator Mundt. Does the Senator have a point of order? 

Senator McCakthy. I just want to make it clear, Mr. Chairman, if 
counsel is going to go beyond the authenticity of the picture, I have no 
choice but to do likewise. I understood from Mr. Jenkins that if 
there were a strayino^ beyond the authenticity of the picture, objection 
would be raised. Whether you object or not, I frankly do not care. I 
want to make it very clear that if we are going to go beyond the pic- 
ture, I will do likewise. 

Senator Mundt. Will the reporter repeat the question? The at- 
tention of counsel was temporarily distracted, as was the attention of 
the Chair. I would like to have the question repeated. 

(The question was read by the reporter.) 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman? 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Jenkins. 

Mr. Jenkins. That question would go to the credibility of the wit- 
ness, his disposition or lack of disposition to reveal the facts. I think 
it is a part of the inquiry that the interest or credibility of a witness 
might be shown. I think it is a proper question, on that subject alone. 
That is, whetlier or not he participated in the practice of any alleged 
deception or having learned of it if such a thing existed, whether or 
not he remained passive or took any active step to correct a false im- 
pression. For that purpose and that purpose alone, I think the 
question is proper. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, may I say that I will object, 
I would not object to the question, except I would like to mention the 
fact that the other day it was pointed out that Private Schine was 
getting special consideration because he was allowed to v.'^f' the 
telephoncj 

Senator Mundt. The question will be ruled in order. 

And, Private Schine, if you can recall the question, you may answer 
it. 

Private Schine. I believe I recall the question, sir, to answer it. 
When it w^as insinuated that members of the committee staff had doc- 
tored the picture, and that this w^as a completely dishonest act, I was 
naturally very much interested in watching the outcome of the pro- 
ceeding over television. 

My own personal opinion was the fact that Colonel Bradley, who 
was head of many Air Force bases in the Northeast, and was standing 
to the side, and was in the picture, in no way detracted from the 
fact that the Secretary had requested that I pose with him. 

I didn't know what was going to happen in the hearing, and I 
didn't know what the members of the staff were going to testify to. 
And I felt that they had all of the facts. I had complied with Mr. 
Jenkins request that I produce the picture. And I have no direct 
contact with the staff during the hearing anyway, and I certainly 
have been more than willing to cooperate in any way I can and 
produce any and all information concerning the picture or anything 
else. And that is what I am doing right now, sir. 



464 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr. Welch. Were you shocked when you saw the picture from your 
wall published, minus one-third of the characters who appeared on 
your wall ? 

Private Schine. Was I shocked, sir? 

Mr. Welch. Yes ? 

Private Schine. I was not shocked. 

Mr. Welch. Were you surprised ? 

Private Schine. When I saw this picture published, sir? 

Mr. Welch. The picture that had hung on your wall, with three 
characters in it, when you saw it published in the papers, with but 
two characters, were you shocked, sir ? 

Private Schine. I have not been shocked lately at anything the 
newspapers of the country publish, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Were you surprised? 

Private Schine. I was not, sir; and I expect to read anything in 
the newspapers these days, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Were you saddened? 

Private Schine. Was I saddened, sir, about what? 

Mr. Welch. About the missing Colonel Bradley in your picture? 

Private Schine. I think it is fairly clear, sir, what happened; and 
anythinoj that isn't clear will be brought out here at this time. 

Mr. Welch. It was not clear to you when you saw in the pictures 
what had happened, was it. Private ? 

Private Schine. At that time there had been no testimony about the 
incident, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Well, you recognized what you saw in the paper as 
two-thirds of the picture that had hung on your wall, did you not? 

Private Schine. I did not see the papers, sir, until the day following 
the hearing. 

Mr. Welch. But when you saw it, you recognized it as two-thirds 
of what had hung on your wall, did you not ? 

Private Schine. As I recall, I believe that the press published both 
pictures, the one of Secretary Stevens and myself, which is a print 
taken apparently from a copy of a picture and enlarged, plus the 
original which appeared on my wall in the office. 

Mr. Welch. Do you know now. Private Schine, how Colonel Brad- 
ley, one-third of the characters in the play, disappeared from the 
cast? 

Private Schine. I have absolutely no idea, sir. 

Mr. Welch. You haven't learned yet ? 

Private Schine. I have not, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Then, Private, wearing that proud uniform which 
you do, I acquit you, sir, of anything wrong, if there was anything 
wrong. 

Senator Mundt. Counsel's time expired at the proper time, and he 
ran out of questions at the same moment. 

Senator McCarthy? 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, I would have no questions to 
ask of this witness, except I would like to have it established whether 
or not the picture Mr. Welch produced was actually the blowup of the 
picture that had been introduced in evidence the day before. 

Senator Mundt. If you will yield to counsel at this time? He is 
prepared to pursue. , 

Senator McCarthy. I would rather have counsel do that. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 465 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Jenkins. 

Senator McCarthy. There is only one question; I have just one 
question. What is your rating as of today ? 

Private Schine. I am a private, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Jenkins. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Schine, I show you another photogi'aph which I 
believe all parties here concede is a blowup, shall Ave say, of a pho- 
tograph in which the Secretary of the Army, you. Private Schine, and 
Colonel Bradley are shown, and perhaps the arm or the arm coat of a 
fourth person to the immediate rio;ht of Colonel Bradley. I will ask 
one of these gentlemen to pass that blown up photograph to you. 

Private Schine. I can see it from here, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. I will ask you to examine it carefully, and state 
wdiether or not you have ever seen that ]:)hotograph before, or any 
duplicate of it, or the negative of it or the print of it. 

Private Schine. I believe I saw that one on television, sir, and I 
have never seen any negative or print of it. 

JNIr. Jenkins. Is that the first time that you ever saw it, on tele- 
vision, during these proceedings ? 

Private Schine. It is, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Was that after you had delivered to the office of Mr. 
Cohn the first photograph about which you were questioned today? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Do you see an arm or arm coat or sleeve of a fourth 
person in this photograph ? 

Private Schine. I do, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Do you understand that this photograph was intro- 
duced by counsel — by Mr. Stevens and/or Mr. Adams ; do you under- 
stand that, either through themselves or through their attorney? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Do you have any way, whatever, of accounting for 
this photograph that I now show you or of including any facts to this 
committee that would shed any light upon it? 

Private Schine. No, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Other than that it is a photograph of the Secretary 
of the Army, of you, Colonel Bradley, and a part of some fourth 
person ? 

Private Schine. May I see the other photograph, sir? 

Mr. Jenkins. May I ask which one? 

Private Schine. The one that was on my wall. 

Mr. Jenkins. I thought it was before you. 

I will ask you to examine, Mr. Schine, the first photograph about 
which you were questioned, and which was taken from your office in 
New York City, and state whether or not there is shown in it a fourth 
party or the arm of a fourth party? 

(Photograph referred to was shown to the witness.) 

Private Schine. No, sir, there is no arm of another party in the 
photograph that hung on my w^all, which was sent to me b}^ the Air 
Force. 

Mr. Jenkins. Would you or not say that the two photographs are 
different or are you able to express any opinion on that subject? 

Private Schine. I would say that they are different prints, and 
as to whether they came from the same negative or not, sir, I do not. 



466 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

May I see this one a little closer, sir, to look at some of the expres- 
sions? 

(The photograph referred to was handed to the witness.) 

Private Schine. My own personal opinion 

Mr. Jenkins. May I ask you to hold this photograph, and there is 
another one that I want to ask you but you may answer the last ques- 
tion, ]\Ir. Schine. 

Private Schine. My own personal opinion, sir, is that the darkroom 
of the Air Force saw fit to cut the picture of Secretary Stevens and 
me down to show just three individuals. 

JMr. Jenkins. May I ask you this question ? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Will you examine both pictures to the immediate left 
of the Secretary, which would be the right side of the picture as you 
look at it ? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And the left side of the picture, as the Secretary and 
you and Colonel Bradley stand. 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Do you note any differences there? 

Private Schine. I note very little difference, sir, in the two pictures. 
I cannot say that they are taken from the same negative, possibly. 

Mr. Jenkins. Will you examine particularly the insignia ? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir, it looks as if they are taken from the same 
negative, although the two photographers could have been standing 
close to each other, and I don't know, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions. 

Senator Mundt. W^ell, the Chair was completely unable to follow 
this testimony because he was looking at the photographs from the 
rear throughout, and so I have no questions. 

Perhaps Senator McClellan will have one. 

I wonder if we could have the pictures presented up here, where 
the rest of the committee can see them. 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman 

Senator Mundt. Have you a point of order ? 

Mr. Jenkins. Do you want those filed as exhibits? Should they be 
filed as exhibits ? I think perhaps they should be. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman 

Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy. 

Senator McCarthy. I yielded to counsel because I thought he wanted 
to develop this point, on the assumption I would be able to question 
when he got through*. I have no objection to waiting until we go 
around, though, if the Chair would prefer. 

In the meantime, could I see those pictures? 

Senator Mundt. Yes, I think we had better go around, probably, 
and we will get around to you. 

Senator McClellan. 

Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, if it would serve the con- 
venience of the Senator to pursue this particular line of questions, 
1 am glad to let him do so at this time. 

Senator Mundt. Without objection, then, in behalf of any member 
of the committee, we will now allocate 10 minutes to Senator Mc- 
Carthy. The Chair hears no objection. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 467 

Senator INfcCartliy for 10 minutes. 

Senator McCarthy. ]\Ir. Schine, 1 don't know if we should try to 
make you an exi)ort on i)liotography but in looking at tlie pictures, 
I find that the picture which you sent to Mr. Jenkins is different in 
many details from the jiieture that Mr. Welch submitted. He sub- 
mitted it, and informed the connnittee that they were the same picture. 

I assume, if it is not the same picture, it was not the result of 
any evil intent on the part of JNIr. Welch. I assume he was honestly 
mistaken. But you will note, if you will look— I wish there were 
some way that we could both look at it together. You will note, 
if you look at the picture, Mv. Schine, that the picture which you 
submitted differs from the one Mr. Welch submitted insofar as the 
insignia at Mr. Stevens' left is concerned; also insofar as the disap- 
])earance of the fourth man from the picture is concerned. So can 
we safely say this: that the picture which you submitted is not the 
same picture in all detail as the one which Mr. Welch submitted? 

Private Scihxe. Yes, sir, I can say that they are different prints. 
There is no doubt about that. 

Senator McCarthy. You would have no way of knowing, of course, 
whether different photographers took them or whether the same 
photograplier took tliem at succeeding moments? 

Private Schine. No, sir. As I remember, there were two photogra- 
phers, and I have never seen any other pictures that they took unless 
these are two of them. 

Senator McCarthy. May I say, Mr. Chairman, that I frankly can- 
not see any great importance to this. We have the same pleased 
expression on Mr. Schine's face, the same grim smile on Mr. Stevens' 
face, that we have in one picture as in the other. I would not care to 
spend any more time on that. 

Senator Mundt. Does counsel have any further questions? 

Mr. Jexkixs. Mr. Schine, I ask you to file the picture you sent or 
had sent from your office in New York City, for the purposes of identi- 
fication, as exhibit 3, and the large blown-up photograph as exhibit 
4 ; and I ask the reporter to so identify those photographs. 

That is all I care to ask. 

Senator Mundt. The exhibits will be accepted and recorded. 

(The photographs mentioned above were marked as "Exhibit No. 
3 and Exhibit No. 4" and will be found in the files of the svibcom- 
mittee.) 

The Chair has no further questions of Mr. Schine at this time. 
Senator McClellan ? 

Private Schixe. Sir, the large picture is not mine. The other one, 
it is my pleasure, sir, to attach to the testimony. 

Mr. Jexkixs. It is merely a formal matter for the purpose of 
identifying those. 

Private Schixe. Yes, sir. 

Senator Muxdt. The Chair will accept the exhibit from counsel if 
that is permissible, and we will have it in the record. 

Senator McClellan? 

Senator INIcClellax^. Mr. Schine, as I understood your testimony, 
you haA'e never seen this picture that came from your wall from the 

46620°— 54— pt. 12 4  



468 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

time that you brou«'lit it to Wasliin<itoii and delivorod it to the man 
wliom you have identitied^ 

Private Schine. 1 did not open tiie pac'l<a»re, sir. 1 o])ened it in 
my office when I oot there, to make certain that tliis was the picture 
of" Secretary Stevens and myself, the one that Mr. Jenkins had re- 
quested. Then I asked one of the "ii'ls in the office to wrap it up 
aijain, and I brou^'ht it in that form to Iioom 101, where I gave it 
to Mr. Anastos. 

Senator McClkllax. Tluil would nu'an yim had not seen it since; 
is that your testimony^ 

Private Schixe. jVo, sir. 

Mr. Jexkixs. Had you, in com])any with othoi's. had some pictures, 
lookiuii' fit tliem since then, that von recall i 

]-*rivate Schixe. Have 1 liad what, sir? 

Senator McCi.ei.lax. We will nsake it a little more sjiecific. Do 
you recall whether you had diimer last Friday niijht at the Colony 
House, riofht across from the ]\Ja\i1ower HoteH 

Private Schixe. I do not recall havino: dinner there, sir. 

Senator IVIcClellax^. Do you say you did or did not? 

Private Schixe. 1 think 1 was asked to come in there, and 1 believe 
1 had some ice cream, sir. 

Senator McCletj.an. By whcm? Who were you in com])any with 
at the time i 

Private Schixe. Members of tlie staff, sir. 

Senator ^rcCLEiXAX^ Members of the staff ? 

Private Schixe. Yes, sir. 

Senator ]\IcCr.Ei,E\x. Will you 

Private Schixe. This was not Friday, sir. It mi<>ht have been 
Friday, sir; I do not believe it was, sir. 

Senator ]\fcri.i:rj.Ax. It was since aou delivered the picture, was 
it not ( 

Private Schixe. Yes, sir; 1 believe it was. 

Senator McCleli,ax. Since then. Did you at that time, wdth the 
others, have some pictures there examinino- them ( 

Private SciriXE. Have some pictures, sir? 

Senator McCleelax. Yes, sir, at that time. If so, state whether 
this i^icture was in the number. 

Private Schixe. No. sir. Tliis pictiire — 1 had not seen this ])icture, 
sir. until this morninir. 

Senator McCeei.lax. That is what I understood you to say. I am 
tryinoj to clear u]) somethin*;- that is just as much in your interest as 
anyone else's. 

Private Schixe. Yes. sir. 

Senator McCi.ei.i.ax. Did you at (hat time ha\-e some other pictures 
there that you were examining ? 

Private Schixe. 1 may have, sir. 

S^-nator McCeeeeax. Do you recall ? 

Private Schixe. Yes, sir, I did. I h.ad another jiicture, sir. 

Senator McCi.ei.eax. AVhat ))iclure was that? All I am interested 
in, was it this picture or one tlitferent to this? 

Private Schixe. This was a picture of members of the staff. Sena- 
tor McCarthy, and General Lawton. 

Senator JNIcCeeleax. How many diff'ei-ent pictures did you have 
there at the time? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 469 

Priviile ScnixK. Just one, sir. 

Senator McCi-Ei.i.an. Just one picture? 

Private Sciiixi:. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClki.lax. You now recall that incident? 

I'rivr.te Sciiim:. I do, sir. 

Senator McCi.ki.i.a.nd. That was, you think, la.^t Fiiday ni^ht? 

Private Schine. I don't believe it was Friday, sii'. I believe it was 
-onietime last week. 

Senator McC'lellax. It may have no sianificance at all. 

Private Sciiixe. Yes. sir. 

Senator McCleeeax. But 1 wanted to let you clear it up. 

Private Sciiixe. Yes. sir. 

Senator McC'eeeeax. You say this ])icture was not there? 

Private Sciiixe. It definitely was not, sir. 

S^'uator McCi.EEEAX. Was the other picture about the same size 
a< tliis' 

Private Sciiixe. I am not sure wliether they were the same size. 

Senator McCleelax. Whether they were — I thou<rht you said there 
wa • only one. 

Pi ivate Sciiixe. You asked me, sir, whether the other picture was 
(he same size as this one. 

S^Mlator jNIcCeeeeax. That is rifjht. 

Private Schixe. I do not know, sir, whether they were the same 
size. 

Senator McCleelax. I said about the same size. I am trying to 
dettriniiie whether this jiicture was there. If not, if there is one simi- 
hir t'lar mi<i-ht cause somebody to make a mistaken identity. 

Private Schixe. I believe this one is about an 8 by 10, sir, and 
possibly the other one by 10 by 12 or 8 by 10. 

Senator McClellax^. A little larper than this? 

Private Sciiixe. I am not sure. 

Senator McC'arthy. Mr. Chairman? 

Senator Muxivr. Senator McCarthy. 

Senator McCarthy. For the benefit of Senator McClellan, my staff 
informs me that Private Schine irave them the ])icture. They have it 
down in the connnittee room. If the Senator would like the picture 
that they were examininfi;. it will be brought u]). 

Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman. 1 believe I would like to have 
the witness testify. I do not know that I care to see the other picture, 
i am only tryin<r to determine if this picture was the ]iicture and, 
if not, whether someone else might have been mistaken in undertaking 
to identify this picture. I am asking him so he may, while present on 
the stand — this picture or the authenticity of it or whether it was 
doctored is at issue, and he may clear up this statement. 

Private Sciiixe. I will be very happy to, sir. I remember the staff 
requested that I ])roduce another picture. This was a ])icture taken 
when the committee was holding hearings on Conununist infiltration 
in the Signal Corps of the Army, and I now recall that the staff has 
the picture. I understand they can ])ro(hice it if you woidd like them 
to. Senator. 

Senator McCleelax. All right. Let's get is completely clear and 
accurate right now. You did not have this picture, but you did have 
another picture at the time? 

Private Sciiixe. Yes, sir. 



470 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator JNIcCvLellan. Let's identify the time from your recollection. 
If it were not last Friday nijrht, when was it? 

Private Schine. It mij^ht have been Thursday night, sir. 

Senator McOlellan. Either Thursday or Friday ni^rht of last 
week ? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Senator jNIcClellax. Who was in the party with you ? Name those. 

Private Schixe. I think that JNIr. Colin. Mr. Carr, Mr. Juliana, and 
possibly 1 or 2 other members of the staff'. 

Senator McClellan. Was the man whom you have named as the 
one to wlioni you have delivered this picture, was he present at that 
time ? 

Private Schixe. I really don't remember, sir. 

Mr. Jexkixs. His name is Oeoroe iVnastos. 

Senator McC^lellax. Anastos is the man I am inquiring about. 
Was he present at that time? 

Private Schixe. I do not recall, sir. I do not think he was. 

Senator McClellax. That is all for the present, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Afc'XDT. Senator Dirksen. 

Senator Jackson? 

Senator Jacksox. Yes. 

As I understood it, you went up to New York on what day last week 
to get the picture ? 

Private Schixe. I went on Wednesday evening, sir. 

Senator Jacksox. Wednesday evening? 

Private Schixe. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jacksox. And you returned with it what evening? 

Private Schixe. I returned the next day, sir. 

Senator Jacksox. You returned on Thursday ? 

Private Schixe. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jacksox. Then you delivered the picture on Thursday 
to Mr. Anastos? 

Private Schixe. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jacksox. Was that Thursday morning or afternoon? 

Private Schixe. It was just at the beginning of the afternoon, 
sir, I believe. 

Senator Jacks()x\ Who did you come back from New York with? 

l^rivate Schixe. I came alone, sir. 

Senator Jacksox. You came alone? 

Private Schixe. Yes, sir. 

Senator JAf:Ksox. You testified that you had no direct contact 
with the staff? 

Private Schixe. That I had no direct contact with the staff when, 
sir? 

Senator Jacksox. Y'ou testified in response — I assume since the 
hearing started, in response to a question by Mr. Jenkins you said 

Private Schixe. No, sir; I did not, sir. I said I have had no 
du'ect contact with the staff during the hearings, sir. 

Senator Jacksox. You haven't talked with any one of the staff? 

Private Schixe. Not while the hearings are going on, sir, be- 
cause they are sitting right at this table, sir. 

Senator Jacksox. You haven't talked with any one of the staff' in 
the evening or any other time ? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 471 

Private Sciiixe. Oli, yes, sir. I have been available and anxious and 
read}^ to cooperate in any way I can with members of the committee, 
with members of the staff, and with the Department of the Army. 

Senator Jacksox. I thought you wanted to correct that because in 
response- 



Private ScHiXE. I did not say I had not had any contact — period. 
T said during the hearings I have not talked on the telephone with 
members of the staff as far as I can remember. 

Senator Jacksox. You remember during the formal hearings here 
in the open ? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jacksox. But you don't mean after hours? 

Private Sciiixe. No, sir. They have called upon me to do a great 
deal of work, to produce many things. 

Senator Jacksox. Is any member of the staff doing any work for 
you and prepariiig anything for you? 

Private Schixe. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jacksox. So some of the staff are assisting you, then? 

Private Schixe. No, sir. If I am asked by the staff to write out 
something involved in a report, I feel free to call upon the staff and 
ascertain the proper date or look at some of the records to help me. 

Senator Jacksox. But you have not requested the staff to do any 
work for you ? 

Private Schixe. No, sir. 

Senator Jacksox. That is all. 

Senator Muxdt. Senator Potter. 

Senator Potter. I have no questions. 

Senator INIuxdt. Senator Symington. 

Senator Stmixgtox. Xo questions. 

Senator Muxdt. Senator Dworshak. 

Senator Dworshak. I would like to see the document which was 
offered in evidence a few minutes ago. 

Private Schixe. Yes, sir. 

(Document referred to was passed to Senator Dworshak.) 

Senator Dworshak. Private Schine, do you have any understanding 
at the present time with the investigating subcommittee of the Gov- 
ernment Operations Committee to remain on its staff ? 

Private Schixe. I beg your pardon, sir ? 

Senator Dworshak. Do you have any agreement at the present 
time with this subcommittee to remain as a member of its staff'? 

Private Schixe. I am a private in the Army, sir, and I am not en- 
gaged by the Senate subcommittee except insofar as instructions are 
given to me to cooperate, Avhich I am ready and willing to do. 

Senator Dworshak. Weren't you in the Army on November 24, 
1953? 

Private Schixe. I was ; yes, sir. 

Senator Dworshak. You used a copy of the committee's letterhead 
at that time? 

Private Schixe. I believe, sir, that somebody in my office typed 
that letter. I probably was infoimed that the picture had arrived. 
I didn't feel that there was anything wrong — I don't feel there is 
anything wrong with using that stationery. They probably had it 
available. 

Senator Dworshak. Are vou still usinff it ? 



472 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Private Sciiine. I im not, sir. 

Senator Dworshak. But you did use it on November 24 ? 

Private Schine. Somebody in tlie office selected that for the letter, 
although I don't see any official designation on there, sir. 

Senator Dworshak. I didn't ask about that. I was just wondering 
whether you were authorized to use this stationery after you became 
a private in the Army ? 

Private Schine. I believe, sir 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, I have been sitting here very 
patiently listening to Senators go far afield. I thought we were ques- 
tioning this witness, according to Mr. Jenkins' statement, in regard 
to the authenticity of this photograph. 

If we want to go into the question of whether or not he used a 
piece of my stationery at some time and spend time on that, all right; 
but if you are going to open this up, then I must go into side issues 
also. 

Senator Dworshak. Mr. Chairman, am I entitled to my rights as 
a member of this commitee ? 

Senator McCarthy. A point of order. 

Senator Dworshak. Is that a point of order or is it not? 

Senator McCarthy. It is a point of order that counsel stated that at 
this time we would only go into the question of the authenticity of 
the photograph. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair would like to remind Senator Dworshak 
that the counsel did suggest — I think it was before you returned to 
the committee room, Senator — that the questions at this time to Private 
Schine were to be addressed to the authenticity of the photographs, ^r 

Senator Dworshak. I was over answering the rollcall and I didn't 
hear that explanation. 

Senator Mundt. That is correct. So Senator McCarthy's point 
is well taken. 

Senator McCarthy, do you have any further questions? 

Senator McCarthy. No further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Counsel ? 

Mr. Jenkins. Yes, I do have. 

Mr. Schine, in view of questions asked you by Senator ]\IcClellan, I 
now deem it my duty on behalf of this committee to ask you further 
with reference to these photographs. 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. I understand you to say that last Friday evening 
you were at the Colony Club or Old Colony Club in Washington. 

Private Schine. I was not, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Last Thursday night ? 

Private Schine. I believe it was Friday, sir, for about 20 minutes. 

INIr. Jenkins. Across from the ISIayflower Hotel ? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And that INIr. Colm was present ? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Carr was present? 

Private Schine. I believe he was, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Juliana was present? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You were present? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 473 

Mr. Jenkins. You were asked bj Senator McClellan -whether or 
not George Anastos was present, "i ou recall that ? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir, I do. 

Mr. Jenkins. Your answer was that you didn't remember ? 

Private Schine. My answer was, sir, that I do not recall that he 
was present, but I do not believe that he was. 

Mr. Jenkins. Was there anybody else in the party outside of those 
that you named, that you distinctly recall ? 

Private Schine. I don't distinctly recall anybody else. 

Mr. Jenkins. What time of night was that party given ? 

Private Schine. I don't know that it was a party, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. What time the group assemble ? 

Private Schine. I don't know. 

Mr. Jenkins. You know what I mean, Mr. Schine. When did you 
go there? 

Private Schine. I came there after they had begun eating dinner, 
sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. About what time of night ? I don't know what time 
they eat dinner. Neither does the committee. 

Private Schine. I believe it must have been in the middle of the 
evening. 

Mr. Jenkins. What time is the middle of the evening? 

Private Schine. Nine or ten o'clock. 

Mr. Jenkins. Nine or ten o'clock. At whose invitation did you 
come? 

Private Schine. I came at the request of either Mr. Cohn or Mr. 

arr, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You went alone ? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Knowing that the assemblage was there? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Schine, did you take this photograph with you 

hat you referred to, the photograph of you. Senator McCarthy, and 

perhaps others? Did you take it along with you when you went 

to the Colony Club ? What is that Old Colony Club ? I never heard 

of it. 

Private Schine. I believe it is called the Colony Eestaurant, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. The what? 

Private Schine. The Colony Restaurant. 

Mr. Jenkins. Let's pinpoint it. The Colony Restaurant? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Did you take that photograph with you? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. "W-liat was the occasion of your doing that? 

Private Schine. I believe I was asked to, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. By whom? 

Private Schine. I am not sure, sir. Either Mr. Cohn or ^Mr. Carr. 

Mr. Jenkins. For what purpose ? 

Private Schine. I believe they wanted it, sir. I don't know the 
purpose. 

Mr. Jenkins. What photograph was it — of you. Senator McCarthy, 
and who else ? 

Private Schine. General Lawton is in the picture, sir. 



474 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr. Jenkins. As far as you now recall, it was a photograph of you 
ttiree only ? 

Private Schine. No, sir. Other members of the staff. 

Mr. Jenkins. Then you, General Lawton, Senator McCarthy, Mr. 
Colin — is that right ? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Juliana ? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Carr? 

Private Schine. I believe there were six in the picture, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. What was the occasion of your being invited to come 
to the Colony Restaurant and bring with you that particular photo- 
graph ? Why did they want it ? 

Private Schine. I have no idea, sir. 

I\Ir. Jenkins. You found out, no doubt, when you got there, what 
they wanted with it ? 

Private Schine. I have had requests for many things, sir, in the 
last several days, and I am trying to comply with all of these requests. 

Mr. Jenkins. You were asked specifically whether or not George 
Anastos was there, and as I understand you, you say that this photo- 
graph that hung on your wall in New York City was delivered by you 
to George Anastos. 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You say you don't remember whether George Anastos 
was there at the Colony Restaurant ? 

Private Schine. I don't think he was, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You first said, as I recall, that y< u didn't remember 
whether he was there. 

Private Schine. I am not sure that he was. 

Mr. Jenkins. Do j'ou remember what you ate there that night? 
You said 

Private Schine. I had a butterscotch sundae. 

Mr. Jenkins. You remember that, butterscotch ice cream. 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. It was not a large group of people, was it? 

Private Schine. I wouldn't say it was a large group, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You would say it was a small group? 

Private Schine. Several people, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. How many ? You have named all of them, have you 
not ? _ 

Private Schine. I don't know who I named, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Schine, what I want to get at is this, and I know 
the committee wants to get at it. How is it that you — I believe you 
are a college graduate, are you not? 

Private Schine. I am, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And you have served this committee as a special con- 
sultant for some considerable time. That is correct, is it not ? 

Private Schine. I have, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Now, Mr. Schine, do you mean to tell this committee 
here today under your oath that you do not remember today, Thurs- 
day, with whom you ate that ice cream last Thursday, 1 week ago, at 
the Colony Restaurant here in Washington? Is that what you are 
telling this committee ? 

Private Schine. I think I can explain that, sir. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 475 

Mr. Jenkixs. If 3'ou have an explanatioii, I am sure the committee 
TTOuld like to hear it. 

Private Schiste. I am a private in the United States Army, sir. 

Iklr. Jenkins. That does not affect your memory, does it? 
(Laughter.) 

Private Schine. I think I have a fairly ^ood memory, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. A point of order, Mr. Chairman. Couldn't 
we let the private finish his answer I 

Mr. Jenkins. If I have cut him off, I apologize. Go ahead. Go 
ahead, Mr. Schine. I am sorry. 

Private Schine. Since I have been in the Army, sir, I have been 
subjected to many pressures. I have been called upon to do many 
things. I have received many orders, quite unusual for a private in 
the Army to receive, and I have obeyed them to the best of my ability. 
Since I came to Washington, I have at the request of many individ- 
uals attended many meetings, and this controversy has caused many 
of them to work late hours, including myself. 1 really think it is 
quite natural that I cannot remember who was at all of the meetings. 

Mr. Jenkins. Well, Mr. Schine, your explanation, then, is as we 
get it that you are in a sort of a state of exhaustion ? 

Private Schine. I am not exhausted, sir ; and I think, sir, when you 
were asking me abont the meeting on Wednesday evening, and you 
asked me whether Mr. Cohn was present, and you said perhaps Mr. 
Carr was present and perhaps other individuals were present, that 
you suffered from the same type of poor memory that I suffer from 
now. 

Mr. Jenkins. I believe, Mr. Schine, that this committee believes 
that perhaps I have been a little more busily engaged for the last 
week or 2 weeks than maybe you have, and there is some, I regret to 
say, disparity in our ages. 

Private Schine. Well, sir, I certainly 

Mr. Jenkins. But I am asking you about a simple event • 

Private Schine. I certainly- — 

Mr. Jenkins. To wit, a meeting of some 5 or 6 men, 1 week ago, 
and when you said you didn't remember whether or not George 
Anastos, who happens to be the man that you delivered this New 
York photograph to, was present or not, I felt that I should explore 
that subject further, and I still feel so. 

Private Schine. I will tell you why I can remember that I gave the 
photograph to Mr. Anastos. 

Mr. Jenkins. Now, haven't you, Mr. Schine, been here some week 
or 10 days? 

Private Schine. Sir? 

Mr. Jenkins. Haven't you been in Washington-— — 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Or at Camp Gordon? 

Private Schine. I am not physically exhausted. 

Senator McCarthy. The counsel stated to begin with that this 
would be restricted to the photograph, and I have restricted myself 
to that. And now we are delving into what type of ice cream the 
Private ate last week. 

Now, if this has some relevancy to the photograph, good ; we will 
go into it. But I think there is a limit to how ridiculous we can 
get here. 



476 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr. Jenkins. I say, Mr. Chairman, that this goes to the relevancy 
of the photograph; if the proof develops that 1 week ago, approxi- 
mately, this witness was in company with other members of the staff, 
whom he has mentioned, and had a photograph with him, I say that 
it is a circumstance shedding liglit on the authenticity or lack of it 
of these photographs. And I desire to pursue that examination 
further, if I may. 

Private Schine. INIay I finish, sir? 

Senator Mundt. You may finish your answer. 

Private Schine. Yes, sir; you see, sir, vrhen you sent me to New 
York to obtain this photograph 

Mr. Jenkins. I did that. 

Private Schine. And other documents, sir, I was very anxious to 
do that, sir, because I understood you were quite anxious to have 
these things. And I went right to the airport, sir, and got on the 
first plane. And when I came back from New York, sir, Mr. Anastos 
met me at the airplane. 

INIr. Jenkins. You have testified to all of that now, Mr. Schine? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. And, therefore, I do remember giving 
him the photograph because he came with me to the office. And, as 
a matter of fact, one of the staff came in and said, "Let me see the 
picture of you and Secretary Stevens," and I said, "We had better 
send this right up because Mr. Jenkins is anxious to have it, and so 
we had better not open it." And I remember Mr, Anastos taking the 
picture. 

Mr. Jenkins. I understand that. 

Private Schine. Because you were so anxious to have the picture 
and the documents, sir, I was quite anxious to comply with your 
wishes, and remember distinctly the incident. 

As to what I gave to the members of the staff on that evening, they 
have asked me for many things, sir. And there was no urgency 
about this photograph; it was one of many things perhaps which 
they have requested. And I really didn't pay much attention to who 
was at the meeting. I merely came to it. 

Mr. Jenkins. I didn't mean to cut you off. 

Private Schine. I think they were finished eating, and they asked 
me if I wanted anything, and I ordered some ice cream; and I be- 
lieve I handed them whatever they asked for. And I think that we 
all left shortly thereafter. 

Mr. Jenkins. Is that the end of your answer ? 

Private Schine. I beg your pardon. 

Mr. Jenkins. Is that your answer now in full? And I don't mean 
to cut you off. 

Private Schine. I think that I can find out exactly who was there, 
sir. 

JNIr. Jenkins. I am not asking you that now. 

Mr. Schine, when I met you in Mr. Cohn's office one evening, I re- 
quested, after you had given me certain information, a photograph of 
you and the Secretary of the Army, did I not? 

Private Schine. You did, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Now, Mr. Schine, you now know that I introduced 
as evidence on cross examination of the Secretary of the Army a pho- 
togi-aph of tlie Secretary and of you alone, and you know that, don't 
you ? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 477 

Private ScHiNE. Yes, sir. 

iNIr. Jenkins. If you doivt know it, I will state it to you as a fact. 

Private ScHiNE. Very well, sir. I know that. 

Mr. Jenkins. It now develops that the photogi^aph is Colonel 
Bradley 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Of Colonel Bradley was omitted from that photo- 
graph, doesn't it ? And you know that as a fact I 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

]\Ir. Jenkins. Now we are trying to inquire about it. 

You went to the Colony Club a week ago tonight, and you know 
George Anastos, don't you ? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir, I do. 

Mr. Jenkins. How long have you known him, Mr. Schine ? 

Private Schine. I have know^n him for several months, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Do you know him well ? 

Private Schine. In fact, I think I have known him for longer than 
several months, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Well, is he on the McCarthy committee ? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Amember of the staff ? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You have worked with him day in and day out over 
the course of the last several months ? 

Private Schine. Well, sir, he came with the committee much later 
than I did, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And you were asked to bring a certain photograph to 
the Colony Restaurant a w^eek ago tonight, that did not include a 
photogTaph of the Secretary of the Army, weren't you ? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. But only a photograph of Senator IMcCarthy and 
certain members of his statf, including yourself 'i 

Private Schine. And General Lawton, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Do you know, and I ask you again, was any explana- 
tion given to you as to why they wanted you to bring that photogi'aph ? 

Private Schine. I think that they thought possibly, sir, that you 
might want to have it. 

Mr. Jenkins. Well, do you know why such a photograph would 
shed any light on the issues of this controversy, Mr. Schine ? 

Private Schine. I don't think — you mean the controversy over the 
picture, sir ? 

Mr. Jenkins. Yes, and the controversy between the respective par- 
ties on this controversy. Xow, can you imagine why it would shed 
any light whatever on what we are investigating here ? 

Private Schine. I don't know, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You don't know ? 

Private Schine. I think if 

]Mr. Jenkins. Was it said or suggested to you — and you say you 
thought maybe whoever asked you to bring it conceived the idea that 
I might want it. Was it suggested to you tliat I had called for such a 
picture ? 

Private Schine. No, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Or even knew of its existence ? 

Private Schine. There was not, sir. 



478 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr. Jenkins, Wlien you got there with it, was there any discussion 
about it? 

Private Sciiine. There was, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. What was that discussion, may I ask ? Just tell what 
was said. 

Private Sciiine. "Here is the picture," and there was discussion as 
to whether you might want to have it or not. 

Mr. Jenkins. In what connection was it suggested that I would 
want such a picture to shed any light on what this committee is trying 
to decide ? 

Private Sciiine. No particular connection, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Anything general ? Nothing in particular, but what 
generally was said about it ? 

Private Schine. I believe, sir, that the members of the staff are 
anxious to give you any and all information — do you Avj'.^it vt to finisli? 

Mr. Jenkins. All right. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, please. 

Senator Mundt. Do you have a point of order ? 

Senator McCarthy. I have seen competent, energetic lawyers work 
many times in my life. JSIost of them have the same affliction. They 
are so anxious to ask the next question they don't Avait for the answer. 
I know ]\Ir. Jenkins is not doing this purposely, but sitting on the side- 
line, Mr. Jenkins, frankly, you are not giving the private a chaiice 
to answer. 

Mr. Jenkins. Go ahead, Mr. Schine. 

Private Sciiine. I believe, sir, that the members of the staff are 
anxious to give you any information, documents or facts that will 
help to present a full and fair picture of all activities relating to this 
current series of hearings. I am not exactly sure what is in the minds 
of the individuals who have the photograph, but I suggest, sir, re- 
spectfully, that you ask for the photograph, and possibly you will 
find it relevant and possibly you w^on't. Perhaps it is significant that 
they haven't given it to you thus far. Perhaps they don't think that 
you will find it relevant. Perhaps after you look at it you will find 
that it is relevant. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Schine, where did you get the picture that 
evening that you took to the Colony Eestaurant ? 

Private Sciiine. I had it with me, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You had it with you, but you had not been carrying 
it with you? 

Private Schine. I got it in New York City, sir^ 

Mr. Jenkins. When? At the same time you got the other 
photograph ? 

Private Schine. No, sir, I don't believe so, sir. I believe I got it 
last Aveekend, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. For what purpose did you get it? Were you re- 
quested to get it by anyone, or did you do it of your own volition, or 
how was that? 

Private Schine. I am not sure, sir, whether anyone specifically said, 
"Bring me a picture of you and Senator McCarthy and General 
Lawton," but I know that in getting together certain documents and 
papers which members of the staff liaA^e asked me to bring to the 
committee, I included this particular document, as I have excluded 
others. I have been asked for many things, and I haven't made any 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 479 

loiif; list. I have also been nskod for categories of things, sir, and 
possibly I decided myself that this fit into a particular category 
relative to the investigation by the committee of Communist infiltra- 
tion into the Signal Corps, 

Senator Mundt. My colleague to my left has called to my attention, 
Mr. Counsel, that perhaps your question was misimderstood or the 
answer was misunderstood. There is something which is confusing, 
because I think Private Schine says that the picture he gave to the 
staff members at the Colony Club a week ago tonight, he procured 
in New York the last weekend. So there is some mixup there. 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. As I recall now, sir, I am not sure 
when I gave it to the members of the staff, but I think I gave it to 
them at the Colony. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Schine, I ask you this one final question — I hope 
it is. You say that George Anastos is a member of the McCarthy 
staff? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You know him and know him well, and you have 
worked with him for months. That is correct, isn't it ? 

Private Schine. Well, I wouldn't say I worked with him for 
months, sir, but I have worked with him, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Yes, sir. Do you now tell the committee again — we 
are inquiring into the authenticity of certain photographs. 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You say you were with these gentlemen a week ago 
tonight with a photogi'aph at the Colony Restaurant and, as I under- 
stood you, you said that you did not remember whether George 
Anastos was there or not, and you say that you had it comparatively 
easy for the last week or 10 days. 

Private Schine. I didn't say that, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. All right, all right, I will take that back. 

Do you now tell this committee that you do not remember whether 
or not on last Thursday night at the Colony Restaurant George 
Anastos was present? 

Private Schine. Do you want me to give you the exact day, sir, 
and the exact individuals who were present? 

Mr. Jenkins. No. no. It was last Thursday night, we understand. 
Is there any dispute about that? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir, there is. 

Mr. Jenkins. Oh, well now. When was it ? 

Private Schine. I have no pencil in my hand, sir. I have no notes 
here. 

]VIr. Jenkins. About when was it ? 

Private Schine. Here is a blank pad. I have been trying to answer 
your questions as quickly as you asked them. If somebocly will lend 
me a pencil [pencil handed to witness] I will try to figure out who it 
was. 

Mr. Jenkins. Do that, please, as No. 1. 

Private Schine. All right, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And here is a calendar if you need one. 

Private Schine. I have the date, sir. Today is the 29th, is it not ? 
Do you know the date, sir? Mr. Jenkins, do you know the date? 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Schine, I am not on the witness stand. 



480 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Private Schine. I am just asking you if you know the date. I am 
trying to figure out the date, sir. 

Senator MuNDT. The 29th, I believe. Right? 

Senator McCarthy. Today is the 29tli. 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. That is what I thought it was. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair would like to let Private Schine, if he 
may, have time to think out- 

Senator McCarthy. "Wliile Private Schine is thinking, would it 
be proper to ask that the record be made clear at this time that neither 
the Chair nor counsel notified me that Private Schine was to be a 
witness. I think as an ordinary courtesy in the future, in view of the 
fact that members of my staff have been accused of misconduct, I 
believe I should have at least the 5 or 10 minutes' notice of who the 
next witness wnll be. It is a courtesy which you extend in a court. 
It is one we always extend in this committee. May I have a ruling 
from the Chair on that as to the procedure in the future? 

Senator Mundt. The Chair will endeavor to do his best. 

Senator McCarthy. May I have the record clear, also, that I was 
with the Chair, with Mr. Jenkins, up until sometime after 2 o'clock 
this afternoon, and I think it very unfortunate that I had not been 
notified who you proposed to call as witnesses. I know that there was 
no intention of doing anything wrong on the part of counsel, but if 
we could have that understanding, I would appreciate it very much. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair is fairly certain that counsel did not 
know much more than 10 or 15 minutes before Mr. Schine was called, 
because we discussed the matter after I arrived in the committee room. 
When I came into the committee room I was not sure then whether 
Secretary Stevens was going to continue or whether we were going 
to have another witness. I did not know that it was going to be 
Private Schine until he was called. 

Are you ready, Private Schine ? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. You see the questions have been coming 
at me very rapidly, sir, and I do not know just what significance is 
to be placed on the days or the dates. So when it was suggested to 
me by Senator McClellan that I was at the Colony on Thursday 

Senator McClellan. I suggested Friday. 

Private Schine. He must have had reason to think I was there, 
and I did not doubt that reason. But as I look at the calendar and 
try to ascertain the exact date, and as I sit back and have had the 
opportunity to think about the individuals present, I believe I can 
tell you that the day was INIonday, that it was the 26th of April, and 
that Mr. Carr, Mr. Cohn, and ]\Ir. Juliana were the only members of 
the staff present. Mr. Anastos was not present. 

Mr. Jenkins. Then it was on Monday of this week? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Which was 3 days ago. 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Today being the 29th. 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. So only 3 days have elapsed now since that assemblage 
occurred. That is correct, is it not? 

Private Schine. The assemblage? What assemblage, sir? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 481 

Mr. Jenkins. The getting together of all them — you know what I 
mean — at the Colony Restaurant. That was Monday night of this 
week ? 

Private Sciiine. Yes, sir. I thought you meant the assemblage of 
the material. 

;Mr. Jenkins. And 3 days have elapsed now since the assemblage of 
you persons occurred. That is right, is it not ? 

Private Schine. Since that particular meeting, sir. 

Mr. Je>nkins. That is the meeting at which you had this picture of 
Senator McCarthy, you, and other members of the staff. That is rightj 
is it not ? 

Private Sciiine. I believe it was, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Now, Mr. Schine, it was your answer, was it not, 
a while ago in response to a question by Senator McClellan that you 
did not remember whether or not George Anastos was present at that 
meeting. Am I right or am I wrong? 

Private Schine. Frankly, sir, I had not until just a few minutes ago 
focused upon a specific meeting. I thought Senator McClellan was 
trying to ascertain when he asked this question as to whether the 
photograph I handed to the staff at the Colony Restaurant was the 
same photograph that I had that was taken at McGuire Air Force 
Base. I did not know the date of the meeting was so significant — — 

]\Ir. Jenkins. The committee may think it is. 

Private Schine. So I have not focused on any particular date. 

Senator McCarthy. Counsel, this is not a point of order but a sug- 
gestion to counsel. I think for counsel's benefit and to keep the record 
clear, it should be shown roughly how many nights this young man 
has had his dinner at the Colony, so you will realize the difficulty of 
focusing on any one particular night and telling you who was there 
on any particular night. 

Mr. Jenkins. The Senator, of course, has a right to bring that out 
on examination of cross examination. 

Mr. Schine, do I understand that since you have been back up here 
from Camp Gordon you have met at the Colony Restaurant with 
members of the staff on other nights ? 

Private Schine. I have met them in a number of different places, 
sir, and several 

Mr. Jenkins. No, the Colony Club. 

Private Schine. Yes, sir, the Colony Restaurant. 

]\Ir. Jenkins. All right. A number of nights since you have been 
back from Camp Gordon ? 

Private Schine. I have come over there, sir, to meet with them 
there, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Have you met with the members of the staff whom 
you have named at the Colony Restaurant on any other occasions 
since you have been in Washington or its environs from Camp Gordon 
in connection with this investigation at which time you had any photo- 
graph with you? 

Private Schine. No, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Then 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, a very important point of order 
now. I will ask the Chair— is this mike working? 

Senator Mundt. It is working. 



482 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator McCarthy. I will ask the Chair to call upon Mr. Stevens 
and those in the military who have the information to give the Chair 
under oath information as to whether or not Private Schine and others 
connected with this investigation have been under CID surveillance; 
if so, who authorized it and how many individuals are involved in 
that surveillance. By CID you understand what I mean, I assume, 
Mr. Chairman. 

I think that is a very important point that should be covered now, 
and I think we should order the Secretary to produce the people who 
can give that information under oath. 

Senator Mundt. The Secretary is not on the stand at the present 
time. That is a question that might rightfully be propounded to him, 
if to anyone. Certainly Private Schine doesn't know whether he is 
under surveillance or not. 

Senator McCarthy. This is not a request that is being idly made. 
I think the Chair would want to know whether the civilians in the 
Pentagon are spending money ; how many people connected with the 
CID have been employed in investigation and surveillance of anyone 
connected with this investigation. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman, that is a matter about which the Sec- 
retary and other personnel may be examined later, of course, by 
Senator McCarthy. 

Senator McCarthy. If he doesn't get tired b-efore we can do it. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair rules that Private Schine is not a com- 
petent witness on that point. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, if the Chair please, I didn't 
ask the Chair to interrogate Private Schine on that. I ask the chair- 
man of this committee to order that information produced. If he 
does not I will try and do it through cross-examination if the civilians 
of the military don't get tired before I can ask the questions. 

Senator Mundt. It is a perfectly proper question to ask the Secre- 
tary at the proper time. 

Private Schine. May I answer the question, sir? 

Senator Mundt. The question will be reread. 

Private Schine. I was present at at least the three meetings at the 
Colony Restaurant during the past several days. I think that after 
the hearings the staff have met with you. At other times I believe 
executive sessions have been held. Sometimes they have asked me to 
meet them at the Senate Office Building, sometimes other places. 

On at least three occasions they asked me to meet them at 8 or 9 
Ox 10 o'clock while they were eating. 

Mr. Jenkins. All right. But you you were present with mem- 
bers of the staff at the Colony Restaurant on only one 0(xasion when 
you brought with you a photograph ; is that right ? Didn't you say 
that a moment ago? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. Here is the photograph. 

Mr. Jenkins. Very well. That was on Monday night of this week, 
the 26th day of April. Is that correct ? 

Private Schine. I believe it was, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Now, Mr. Schine, you understood Senator McClel- 
lan's question, did you not? 

Private Schine. I would not say that I did, because he asked me 
about whether or not this picture was the same as the one that you 
hung on my wall. At least, that is what I thought he asked me. Now 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 483 

it seems that the day tliat I gave it to the staff is the question, rather 
than whether they were' the same. So apparently I didn't understand 
the question. 

Mr. Jenkins. Oh, you didn't understand Senator McClellan's 
questions ; is that what you are saying ? 

Private Schine. Apparently I haven't, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mt. Schine, did, you not understand that Senator 
McClelian was asking you about a meeting between you and other 
members of the staff at the Colony Restaurant at which time there was 
a photograph present ? Didn't 3'ou understand that ?' 

Private Schine. I understood he wa-s asking me about a photograph. 

Mr. Jenkins. That was only one occasion, and that was Monda>y 
night of this w^eek. That is correct. You have answered that before. 

Private Schine. I don't get the question, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Didn't you tell Senator McClelian in direct response 
to a direct question that he asked you, to- wit, whether or not it now 
develops 3 days ago your longtime acquaintance, George Anastos, 
was present, and you stated you didn't remember ? 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairmaoi, a point of order. He stated 
he did not remember whether George Anastos was^ there last Friday 
night. The counsel is now asking him about Monday night. Let's 
be fair with this young man, who had no notice he was to be called 
here. Let me make my point of order. Tliis is on a point of order-. 
Let's have it clear here that this yoiuig man was picked up and set in the 
witness chair and instructed that he could only lae questioned about the 
authenticity of this photograph of him and Stevens. Mr; MeClellian 
was asking him about a meetiiUg or dinner Friday night at the Colony. 
Somebody else asked' him about a dinner Thursday night. 

Now the counsel — I think it is completely unfair — you say to him, 
"You told Mr. McClelian you didh't know who was with you Mondky 
night." He did not. He told Mr. McClelian he didn't know who was- 
with him Friday night. 

Mr. Jenkins. He was asked, and he- coneedes that he was asked!, 
and I am asking him now if Senator McClelian wasnt asking you 
about a meeting at the Colony Restaurant when a photograph was 
present. Isn't that what Senator M-cClel'lan asked you? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir, he was. 

Mr. Jenkins. All right. That is what I understood. 

Pirivate Schine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. If you have now pinpointed the date as Monday night 
of this week — — 

Private Schine. I believe it was Monday night, sir. 

INIr. Jenkins. Very well. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Have you a point of order? 

Senator McCarthy. Yes. I took counsel's word for it when he said* 
we would only discuss this photograph of Stevens and Schine. For 
that reason I didn't go into other meetings at the Colony Restaurant 
or elsewhere. I think we should make it clear now that if we are 
going to interrogate Mr. Schine about what color ice cream he ate on 
a certain night, who was with him on various nights last week, we 
have opened the door far beyond this picture, and when it comes my 
turn to question him I will do exactly as counsel' is doing — I will go 
beyond the photograph. 



484 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr. Jenkins. I did not ask him about the quality or color of ice 
cream he was eating on that occasion. He volunteered it. 

Senator MuNDT. That is correct. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Schine, this question 

Private Sciiine. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You have stated that Senator ISIcClellan asked you 
about a meeting at the Colony Restaurant at which a photograph was 
present. Your reply was that you did not remember whether George 
Anastos was there. I now ask you this question : State whether or 
not on IMonday evening of this week, the 26th day of April, there was 
a meeting between you and otlier members of the staff at the Colony 
Restaurant here in the city of Washington, at which time you brought 
a photograph which you apparently now have before you, and I ask 
you whether or not on that occasion George Anastos was present? 

Private Sciiine. Sir, I believe it was Monday night, and I do not 
believe that George Anastos was present, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Then why did you tell Senator McClellan a little 
while ago that you didn't recall whether he was present or not ? 

Private Schine. Because I hadn't thought about it at all, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And why do you tell me now that you believe he 
wasn't present ? 

Private Schine. Because since I was first asked the question, I have 
been given a few minutes to refresh my memory. 

Mr. Jenkins. Can you say "Yes" or "No," he was present or he 
was not present, and will you do it ? 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jenkins. I think, Mr. Chairman, it is a perfectly legitimate 
question, I know it is, and I think we are entitled to an answer now 
without any interruption. I insist upon it. 

Senator Mundt. There is no question about its being a proper 
question. 

Mr. Jenkins. The question is now: Will you say "Yes, George 
Anastos was present," or will you say, "No, he was not present"? 
That is three short nights ago, about which you have testified, Mr. 
Schine. 

Private Schine. All I can say, sir, is that I do not believe he was 
present. You see, I did not have the picture of George Anastos, and 
I do not believe he was there, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. But you will not say definitely one way or the other, 
is that it? Is that what you want the committee to understand and 
judge of the weight of all your testimony in the light of your last 
answer ? Is that right ? 

Private Schine. Sir, I was not paying particular attention to 
which members of the staff were present. I sat down at one end of the 
table and pulled out whatever they had asked me to bring. It was 
at the close of the dinner. I would not say definitely whether George 
Anastos was there or not, but I would say that I would be willing to 
bet you 

Mr. Jenkins. No, don't bet me. 

Private Schine (continuing). That he was not there. 

Mr. Jenkins. But, Mr. Schine — and I hope this is the final ques- 
tion — you are content to leave it as it is, to leave your answer as it is, 
and for these seven men on this committee to judge of the weight of 
the testimony and of the weight they will attach to it in the light of the 



SPECIAL mVESTKJATION' 485 

last answer you made.. You are content to, cl'o tliat ; is that riglit, or 
not ? 

Private Schine. If the committee wants to consider 

Senator McCarthy. A point of order, Mr.. Chairman. 

Private Schine (continuing),. That my futui'e testimony shall be 
governed 

Senator McCarthy. A point of order, please. 

Senator Mundt. The Senator will state it. 

Senator McCarthy. I have a very important point of order. Mr. 
Chairman, I think in view of the fact that Mr. Schine w^as called here 
without warning, notified that his testimony would only concern the 
photograph of Stevens, and he is a private in the Army, he is not 
flanked with counsel — when the Secretary of the Army was asked 
about charges that he deliberately made, put in writing months ago, 
there was no criticism at all when he said, "I have to go back tonight 
and think it over," even though it was material subject of his charges. 
I think this abuse of the private who sits here alone,, with no warning, 
is completely improper. 

I am satisfied that the American people wha are watching this 
judge the difference in the treatment of Private Schine without coun- 
sel, without warning,, and the Secretary of the Army Stevens who is 
given — let me finish my point of order— overnight upon request, no 
criticism at all, no abuse. He is allowed to go home and figure out 
the statement by consulting with his counsel. I think it is a very 
unfair and improper thing to do. Maybe it will serve a purpose 
because the American people are watching this spectacle. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Schine,, do you consider that I have abused you 
this afternoon, in any way or to any degree ? 

Private Schine. I would say, sir, that I am trying to cooperate 
with you in every — would you like me to finish or do you have, some- 
thing further to ask? 

Mr, Jenkins. Will you answer my question first?' 

Private Schine. I would say, sir, tkit I have tried to answer all of 
your questions. 

Mr. Jenkins. Now I didn't ask you that. 

Private Schine. I am in the process of answering your question. 

Mr. Jenkins. Do you consider that I have abused you in any wise,. 
or to any degree this afternoon, in cross-examination of you? 

Private Schine. Sii', I have tried to answer all of your questions, 
to the best of my ability, and you have been firing them very rapidly ; 
and I think that. I can try to answer them either rapidly, or with time 
to consider more exactly the specifics that you are seeking. 

As to, whether you have abused me or not, I can say, sir,, that if you 
are abusing me, it doesn't bother me. 

Mr. Jenkins. Suppose, Mr Schine, tha;t we take it slowly and easily. 
Now suppose, Mr. Schine, that we take it slowly and easily. I want to 
ask you the same question that I asked you again. 

You have been asked about the meeting at the Colony Kestaurant 
Monday night of this week, at which time you brought a photograph 
which you now have before you. You were further asked whether 
or not George Anastos was present. Your answer was that as I 
recall, you were not definitely sure one way or the other ; that youi 
certainly would not give a positive "yes" answer or a positive "no" 
answer; is that correct? 



486 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Private Schine. Yes, sir, because this was not a meeting, as sucli. 
The members of the staif were there eating very hxte in the evening, 
and I came in and went to one end of the table, and sat down to talk 
with Mr. Cohn and Mr. Carr, and everybody left very shortly there- 
after, and I didn't pay much attention to who was present. 

Mr. Jenkins. Now, Mr. Schine, are you content to leave your 
answer as it is? 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman 

Mr. Jenkins. And for this committee 



Senator McCarthy. A point of order. 

Mr. Jenkins. And judge tlie weight it will give your testimony in 
the light of the last answer you made ? 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jenkins. Are you content? 

Private Schine. I am content, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. A point of order, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. State it. 

Senator McCarthy. I want to make the very strong point of order 
that this is the most improper exhibition I have ever seen. You have 
a lawyer here who brags about being one of the greatest criminal 
lawyers in the country, badgering this private and he has told him 
10 times now that he doesn't know whether or not George Anastos 
was there, but to the best of his recollection Anastos was not there. 

He can't gain anything further by badgering this Army private. I 
think it is indecent, and I think the Chair should condemn it. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair believes that the counsel is proceeding 
with complete propriety, in doing the same thing in a searching way 
with this witness as he did with Secretary Stevens; and if this witness 
should decide that he wants to have time to think it over, and Mr. 
Stevens did make such a request, I am sure the Chair and committee 
will give him the same consideration. 

The Chair overrules the point of order. 

Private Schine. I have already asked whether Mr. Jenkins wants 
me to find out for certain who was there. 

Senator McCarthy. A question, Mr. Chairman, a formal point of 
order. May I ask now for my future information how many times 
we will go on and sit here and have this question reasked, and how 
many times it can be asked over before it is badgering. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair will rule that counsel should continue 
to ask questions of witnesses, until he thinks he has exhausted every 
possibility of getting every bit of information that they have. 

Mr. Jenkins. I will discontinue the questioning of this witness 
when I get an answer. And allow me to make this further statement : 
It was stated by Senator McCarthy just now, publicly, that counsel 
for this committee bragged about being a great criminal lawyer or the 
greatest in the country, or in Tennessee. The Senator was never 
more wrong in his life. 

I am bragging about one thing and one thing only, and that is that 
to the best of my ability I am pursuing this investigation in order to 
develop the facts, let the chips fall where they will, and regardless 
of personalities. That is all that I am bragging about. And I brag 
about it. 

Now, Mr. Schine, if you will give me an answer to this question, 
yes or no, I shall have finished with you. 



SPECIAL mVESTIGATlON 487 

I can ask it,, and I can ask it jjust in tlw most gentle tones of wliicli 
I am capable. You were asked whether oi* not you attended a meeting 
at the Colony Restaurant, at which time you and other members of 
the committee were present, at which time you carried with you a 
photo<2:raph which you have exhibited;' aivd your answer was in the 
aflirmative. And you further answered tliat it occurred on Monday 
night, the 26tli day of this montli, and yoii were further asked if 
George Anastos, whom you say you have known for months was 
present on thsit occasion, and wlioi is likewise a member of the com- 
mittee, ond your reply Avas that you refused to state d'eEnitely whether 
he was there or whether he wasn't there. 

I now ask you, are you content to allow this investigating com- 
mittee to, evaluate your testimony given here today, in the light of 
your refusal to say whether Anastos was present Monday night or 
not? Are you or are you not ? 

Private Sciiine. The committee, sir, as far as I am concerned, will 
judge me not merely by the testimony of a few minutes, but by my 
entire testimony. If they wish to judge my credibility by questions 
about dates, I have no way of stopping them, sir, and I am certainly 
content that they do that. 

Mr. Jexkins. And you were given an opportunity to have counsel 
here this afternoon I 

Private Sciiine. Sir, I was told when I was called to this room tllmt: 
I would be asked about the photograph that was taken at McGuire Air 
Force Base, and I was given about 5 minutes' notice to refresh my 
memory ©n tlie matter of the photograph taken at McGuire Air Force 
Base. 1 was not told that I would be asked about anything else, sir.. 

Mr. JE]^JKI?^^s. Do, you now desire counsel? 

Private Schine.. I think, sir,, that at least I should talk with counsel 
abo at whether I should have counsel or not, sir. 

Mr. Jexkins. Mr. Chairman, in view of that answer, I think that 
it would be improper and unfair for me to pursue this cross-exani'-. 
ination any further. And I shall not do so until Private Schine 
has decided whether or not he desires counsel present. 

Senator Muxdt. The Chair has a question to ask, on which he will- 
not require counsel. It has to do with the two photographs wliicli 
the Chair did not have an opportunity to examine, except from the- 
rear, up until the current colloquy has given him ample time to do so. 

Will you hold those tW'O photogi'aphs. Private Schine, so that you 
can see them and so that Mr. Welch can also see them, because I 
want to be sure that what I ask is correct. 

Mr. Welch will correct me, if I am wrong. There has been some 
testimony up to now about there being two different prints because of 
a difference at the left where a hand and an arm have been deleted 
from one picture and included in the other, and the' difference in the 
insignia at the right. 

I ask you, Private Schine, to look at the bottom of the big picture, 
and Mr. Welch to look at the bottom of the big picture, and tell me 
wdiether I am right or wrong in the fact that in the big picture the 
bottom of Colonel Bradley's coat looks to be a couple of inches, on 
the big picture, from the bottom of the ground, or from the top of the 
groimd ? Is that right. Private Schine ? Of the big picture, and on the 
b]g picture does it not show a space between the ground and the 
colonel's coat ? 



488 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Will you hold it up ? I may have my question reversed. 

That is correct. Can you see the bottom of the colonel's coat in that 
picture, the topcoat ? 

Private Schine. I don't believe the colonel has a topcoat on, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Turn it around. And I am all wrong, if that is 
correct. 

It is your coat that I am talking about and not the colonel's. 

Is it possible to see the bottom of your coat in the big picture? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir, in the big picture it is possible to see the 
bottom of my coat. 

Senator Mundt. Will you look at the small picture and see whether 
it is possible to see tl\Q bottom of the coat ? 

Private Schine. It is not possible to see the bottom of the coat in 
the small picture, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Will you look at the picture of Secretary Stevens, 
on the big picture? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Senator IMundt. In the big picture, is it possible to see the bottom 
of the topcoat that Secretary Stevens has in his arm, showing a 
consi derabl e 

Private Schine. It is, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Look at the small one. Is it possible there to see 
the bottom of Secretary Stevens coat ? 

Private Schine. It is not possible, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Which would certainly indicate that either one 
of two things must have taken place, either there are two different 
prints involved, or else through some kind of photographic maneuver- 
ing with which this chairman is not familiar, it apparently was pos- 
sible to contract the bottom of the picture without contracting the 
top of the picture. Because at the top of the picture, had it been 
pulled down correspondingly, you would have pretty well decapitated 
the witnesses who sliowed up in the picture. 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Senator Mundt. I just wanted to have that in the record. And I 
wanted Mr. Welch to have that because no one had called attention to 
those two discrepancies prior to that time. I have no further 
questions. 

Senator McClellan ? 

Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, in view of this statement, that 
the witness has made, that he would like to seek the advice of counsel, 
as to whether he sliould have counsel • 

Senator Mundt. Go ahead, Senator McClellan. 

Senator Jackson. A point of order, Mr. Chairman ! 

Senator Mundt. Whatever it is, it will be overruled. 

Senator Jackson. I am wondering how the photographers are going 
to get out of this one. They not only have been standing up in front 
but now they stand up in front and push the water on the chairman. 

Senator Mundt. It is just one of the occupational hazards. 

Go ahead. Senator McClellan. 

Senator McClellan. Mr. Schine, I was saying to you, when this 
accident occurred — I trust it is an accident — I was saying to you that 
I would not, in view of the statement you have made that you would 
like to consult with counsel to ascertain whether you need or shall 
want counsel with you, and in view of that, and in an effort to further 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 489 

expedite these hearings, I shall not ask any further questions at this 
time. 

Private Schine. I am prepared to answer any questions about the 
photograph taken at McGuire Air Force Base. 

Senator McClellax. Well, I am interested in the questions I asked 
you first, about your interest in a photograph and whether it was this 
photogi-aph or not, on another occasion. 

Private Schine. As I testified, sir, they were different photographs. 

Senator McClellax. I understand you have, but I do not want to 
interrogate you further, if you feel that you would like to consult with 
counsel before you proceed. 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch has a point of order. 

Mr. Welch. I am in a familiar role as I look at the clock. We are 
1 hour overtime, and this witness is a young private in the Army. _ I 
am old enough to know that it would be wise for him to consult with 
counsel, as he suggested, purely on the preliminary question of "Do I 
need counsel." I do not like to see a young private in the Army try 
to decide questions of that importance on his own behalf, and I think, 
sir, we should adjourn. 

Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, I was not going to ask the 
private any further questions if he feels at all that he should consult 
with counsel or with friends as to whether he should have counsel. 

Private Schine. May I ask a question of the Chair, sir? 

Senator Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I think the record should dis- 
close that at the outset. Private Schine was advised of the right of 
counsel, and I quite agree, and he was good enough to say that he 
thought he could go ahead without it, and I think that in the light 
of all the circumstances, there should not be any further questions until 
he has had the riaht to give this matter further consideration as to 
whether he would like to have counsel. 

I may say that I was the one who suggested to the chairman that 
that question be made clear to him, at the outset. 

Senator ]McClellan. ]Mr. Chairman, I am not certain that this 
picture has been made an exhibit to the witness' testimony, and this 
is the picture that he says was present the night of the conference 
he had or the visit he had with staff members in the restaurant, what 
is the name of it? 

Private Schine. The Colony Restaurant. . 

Senator McClellan. If it has not been, I ask that it be now made 
an exhibit to his testimony. 

Private Schine. ]\Iay I ask a question of the Chair ? 

Senator Mundt. You may. 

Private Schine. Since I am in the Army 

Senator Mundt. To deal with the question of the picture ? 

Private Schine. Xo, sir, it deals with the question of counsel. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair will admit the exhibit, and include it 
in the testimony and now listen to your question. 

(The photograph referred to above was marked as "Exhibit No. 5" 
and will be found in the files of the subcommittee.) 

Private Schine. Since I am in the Army, sir, and since Mr. Welch 
is the counselor for the Army, sir, does that automatically make him 
one of my counselors ? 

Senator Mundt. I believe not. Do any of the subcommittee mem- 
bers have further questions, or is it the wish of the subcommittee that 



490 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

we recess at this time ? At the left we hear calls for recess ; and how 
about the gentlemen at the right ? 

Senator Symington. I think it is in order 

Senator Mundt. It has been suggested, and I think it is quite proper, 
that during the course of the evening, Private Schine, you consult 
with your counsel and determine when you return whether you desire 
to have counsel or not. 

Private Schine. I must say, sir, that I have absolutely no counsel, 
sir, and I don't know whether I can therefore consult with counsel 
this evening; but I shall try to, as quickly as possible, find out from 
some counsel whether I should have counsel at these proceedings. 

Senator Munut. We will stand in recess until 10 : 30 tomorrow 
morning. 

(Whereupon, at 5-30 p. m. the hearing was recessed until 10:30 
a. m., Friday, April 3), 1954.) 



INDEX 

Page 

Adams, John G 453, 4n9, 400, 405 

Air Force (United States) 452-455, 457, 460, 4G1, 403, 46(5, 481,487, 489 

Air Force pliotograpbers 453,454,457,466,487,489 

Anastos, George 455, 457, 458, 468, 470, 474-477, 479-481, 483-487 

Armv (United States) 449,451,459,469,471,475,485,486,489 

Bradley, Colonel 453, 456, 458, 461, 463-466, 477, 487 

Camp Gordon, Ga 458,475,481 

Carr, Francis P 453,454,460,470,472-475,480,486 

CID 482 

Cohn, Roy M 453-455,458,460,470,472-476,480,486 

Colony Club (Washingtou, D. C.) 472,473,477,479,481 

Colony Honse (Washington, D. C.) 468 

Colony Restaurant (Washington. D. C.) 473,474,479-485,489 

Communist infiltration in the Signal Corps of the Army (hearings) 469,479 

Department of the Army 449, 451, 459, 469, 471, 475, 485, 486, 489 

Fort Dix, N. J 452, 455 

Fort Meyer, Va 451 

Hotel Mayflower (Washington, D. C.) '- 468,472 

Juliana, Mr 470, 472, 480 

Lawton, General 468, 473, 477, 478 

Mayflower Hotel (Washington, D. C.) 468,472 

McCarthy, Senator Joe 448-451,453,458-461,463-469,472-475,477-480 

McGuire Air Force Base 452,455,460,461,481,487,489 

New York City 454,455,457,458,465,467,470,474-476,478 

Old Colony Club (Washington, D. C.) 472 

Public-information officer (McGuire Air Force Base) 460,461 

Ryan, General 452, 453 

Schine, Pvt. G. David, testimony of 451-490 

Secretary of the Army 448-450, 

452, 453, 455, 456, 458-407, 476, 480, 482, 483, 485, 486, 488 

Signal Corps (United States Army) 469,479 

Stevens, Robert T 448-450, 

452, 453, 455, 456, 458-467, 476, 480, 482, 483, 485, 480, 488 

Trenton, N. J 461 

United States Air Force 452-455, 457, 460, 461, 463, 466, 481, 487, 489 

United States Army 449,451,459,469,471,475,476,485,486,489 

United States Army (Signal Corps) 469,479 

Washington, D. C 455, 468, 472, 474, 475, 481, 484 

I 

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