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Full text of "Special Senate investigation on charges and countercharges involving: Secretary of the Army Robert T. Stevens, John G. Adams, H. Struve Hensel and Senator Joe McCarthy, Roy M. Cohn, and Francis P. Carr. Hearings before the Special Subcommittee on Investigations of the Committee on Government Operations, United States Senate, Eighty-third Congress, second session, pursuant to S. Res. 189 .."

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SPECIAL SENATE INVESTIGATION ON CHARGES 
AND COUNTERCHARGES INVOLVING: SECRE- 
TARY OF THE ARMY ROBERT T. STEVENS, JOHN 
G. ADAMS, H. STRUVE HENSEL AND SENATOR 

JOE McCarthy, roy m. cohn, and 

FRANCIS p. CARR 

HEARING 

BEFORE THE 

SPECIAL SUBCOMMIHEE ON 
INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON 

GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS 
UNITED STATES SENATE 

EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 
PURSUANT TO 

S, Res. 189 



PART 13 



APRIL 30, l'J54 



Printed for the use of tbe Committee on Government Operations 




UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
46620° WASHINGTON : 1954 



Boston Public Library 
Superintendent of Documents 

AUG 9 - 1954 



COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS 

JOSEPH R. MCCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman 

KARL E. MUNDT, Soutli Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas 

MARGARET CHASE SMITH. Maine HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, Minnesota 

HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idalio HENRY M. JACKSON, Wasliingtou 

EVEitETT Mckinley dirksen, niinois john f. Kennedy, Massaciiusetts 

JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri 

CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan ALTON A. LENNON, Nortli Carolina 

RicnAKD J. O'Melia, General Counsel 
Walter L. Riovxolds, Chief Clerk 



Special Subcommiti-ee on Investigations 

KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota, Chairman 

EVERETT MCKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas 
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington 

HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri 

Rat H Jenkins, Chiet Counsel 

Thomas R. Pkewitt, Assistant Counsel 

ROBERT A. Collier, Assistant Counsel 

SOLis HoKwiTz, Assistant Counsc' 

CUARLEs A. ManeEj Hccictari/ 

II 



CONTENTS 



Page 
Index I 

Testimony of — 

Auastos, C. George 497, 514 

Juliana, James N 523 

Mims, Mrs. Frances Perry 510 

Seliine, G. David, private, United States Army 492 

III 



SPECIAL SENATE INVESTIGATION ON CIIAEGES AND 
COUNTERCHARGES INVOLVING: SECRETARY OF THE 
ARMY ROBERT T. STEVENS, JOHN G. ADAMS, H. STRUVE 
HENSEL AND SENATOR JOE MCCARTHY, ROY M. COHN, 
AND FRANCIS P. CARR 



FRIDAY, APRIL 30, 1954 

United States Senate, 
Special Subcommittee on Investigations of the 

CoMMirrEE ON Govebnment Operations, 

Washhigton, D. O, 

The subcommittee met at 10:45 a. m., pursuant to recess, in the 
Caucus lioom of the Senate Office Building, Senator Karl E. Mundt, 
chairman, presiding. 

Present: Senators Karl E. Mundt, Republican, South Dakota; 
Everett McKinley Dirksen, Republican, Illinois: Charles E. 
Potter, Republican, Michigan; Henry C. Dworshak, Republican, 
Idaho; John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas; Henry M. Jackson, 
Democrat, Washington ; and Stuart Symington, Democrat, Missouri. 

Also present : Ray H. Jenkins, chief counsel to the subcommittee ; 
Thomas R. Prewitt, assistant counsel ; and Ruth Y. Watt, chief clerk. 

Principal participants: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, a United 
States Senator from the State of Wisconsin; Roy M. Cohn, chief 
counsel to the subcommittee; Francis P. Carr, executive director of 
the subcommittee; Hon. Robert T. Stevens, Secretary of the Army; 
John G. Adams, counselor to the Army ; H. Struve Hensel, Assistant 
Secretary of Defense ; Joseph N. Welch, special counsel for the Army ; 
James D. St. Clair, special counsel for the Army ; and Frederick P. 
Bryan, counsel to H. Struve Hensel, Assistant Secretary of Defense. 

Senator Mundt. The committee will please come to order. 

May the Chair remind the audience once again that we have a stand- 
ing rule of the committee that there are to be no manifestations of ap- 
proval or disapproval from the audience at any time in any way. And 
that the officers have been instructed by the committee to enforce the 
rule. By and large, our audience has been very courteous and very 
considerate in that connection. 

There have been occasional deviations from the rule. Now, the 
Chair hopes that those deviations have been concluded, and from now 
on the members of the audience will faithfully conform with the rule 
of the subcommittee. 

The committee will come to order, and counsel • 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Do you have a point of order ? 

491 



492 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator McCarthy. I would like to correct yesterday's record, if 
I may. Yesterday, as the Chair knows, I felt very stron<>;ly about the 
vigorous cross-examination of Private Schine and in objectino;, made 
a statement to the effect that our very eminent counsel had brao-ged 
that he was an outstanding criminal lawyer and he took exception to 
that. 

May I say, ]\Ir. Chairman, that I took the time last night to go 
through all of the news stories concerning counsel's appointment and 
I find that some of his friends did brag, and I think rightly so, that he 
is one of the outstanding lawyers of the country ; and I find that as far 
as I know, the counsel never did brag about anything he has done. I 
think he is a southern gentleman and I don't think he would brag, and 
1 want to tender my a]5ology for that statement which was made on 
the basis of what a lot of his good friends said about him and not 
what he said. 

May I say that I personally will join those friends and say that I do 
think he is an outstanding lawyer; but he never did brag about it. 

Senator Mundt. The apology will be recorded as part of the testi- 
mony. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman? 

Senator Mundt. Counsel Jenkins. 

Mr. Jenkins. I think it appro]^riate that I make a statement at this 
time. I appreciate more than I can passibly say what Senator Mc- 
Carthy has just publicly said. I want to say to Senator McCarthy 
that he owes me no apology. I accepted his statement yesterday as a 
statement on the part of a zealous combatant in this hearing, made 
without consideration, and in the heat of passion. Over the course 
of a professional career of a third of a century, many of m}^ dearest 
and most lo3^al friends have said far worse. I confess my guilt in 
having said far worse, and all was forgiven when calm had been 
restored. 

If I took any exception, Senator — and I assure you I did not — all 
was forgiven at the very moment it was said. And this further state- 
ment: I think it is known that I am not a braggart, and braggadocio 
is not a part of my repertoire. If Senator McCarthy ever decides, 
with his committee, to investigate any of my clients, I assure him that 
he will spend a great deal of his time in the State penitentiary at 
Nashville, going up and down the halls. 

Senator Mundt. Very well. May the Chair express the hope that 
this happy feeling will continue throughout the day. 

Senator McCarthy. I assume Mv. Jenkins spent a great deal of 
time in the penitentiary investigating. 

Mr. Jenkins. That is ])rGcisely what I said, Senator. 

Senator Mundt. Very well. Counsel will call the first witness. 

INfr. Jenkins. Mr. Schine was on the witness stand. 

Senator Mundt. That is correct. Mr. Schine, will you come to the 

TESTIMONY OF PVT. G. DAVID SCHINE— Resumed 

My. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman, I had concluded my cross-examination 
of JNIr. Schine. 

Senator INIundt. The Chair would simply like to inquire of Private 
Schine, as he recalls — At the conclusion of the testimony yesterday 
you were asked whether you had counsel or desired to consult with 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 493 

counsel about the possibility of jTjettiiif? counsel, and I wonder now, 
Private Schine, w'hether 3'ou can tell us, Do you have counsel or have 
you concluded you do not want counsel, and are you satisfied? 

Private Schine. Sir, I have not had the opportunity yet to talk with 
counsel about the advisability of having counsel. Plowever, I am 
prepared to continue testifying about the McGuire photograph in 
order to help expedite the committee's investigation in this particular 
matter. 

Senator Mundt. Does the Chair understand that you are quite pre- 
pared to testify on questions dealing with the photograph without 
counsel ? 

Private Schine. I am, sir. 

Senator Mundt. You have no desire to have counsel in connection 
with questions on that point? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Symington has a point of order. 

Senator Symington. I have had several telegrams, Mr. Chairman, 
and one phone call with res])ect to the committee not granting counsel 
to Private Schine. I would respectfully recommend that until he 
has counsel, that no further questions be asked of him. 

Senator Mundt. AVell, if Private Schine does not desire to have 
counsel to advise him on questions in connection with the photograph, 
and is prepared to testify about the photograph, I see no purpose in 
delay if he returns on Monday or some other time again without 
counsel. 

Senator Symington. We decided yesterday we would only question 
him on questions of the photograph, but the questions seem to get off 
the photograph. 

Senator Mundt. That is correct. 

Senator Symington. In order to clarify the matter, I suggest we 
do not question Mr. Schine. Until he has counsel. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair would suggest we try to limit our 
questions to those dealing with the photograph. 

Senator Jackson. A point of order. When was the request which 
I made the day before yesterday, advising the Army to inform Private 
Schine that he could attend the hearings and have counsel with him, 
when was that directive carried out? I w^ould like to know that, as 
a point of order. 

Senator Mundt. We might try to find out from Private Schine at 
what time the Army commander gave you the information. The 
Chair believes that immediately after the request was made, Secretary 
Stevens asked somebody to deliver the order, or at least I saw some 
officer leave the room. 

When did you learn about the fact? 

Px"ivate Schine. I was informed by my commanding officer, sir. 

Senator Jackson. The day before yesterday ? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson. That you could attend and have counsel ? 

PiTvate Schine. That I was granted the right to attend the hearings 
from this point forth, and that I may have counsel if I so desired. 

Senator Jackson. So I assume he has had since Wednesday evening, 
then, the opportunity to think about the advisability of getting counsel. 

Senator Mundt. Probably the more pertinent question would be, 
Private Schine, when were you advised that you were to be called to 



494 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

the stand; that you were going to become a witness instead of an 
observer ? 

Private Sciiine. I was advised that I might be called to the stand 
about 1 : 15 yesterday afternoon, sir, and I was told to stand by for 
2 : 30, and that I might be called to testify about the McGuire photo- 
graph ; and I said I would be very happy to. 

Senator Jacksox. May I follow that up, pursuing this matter for 
a moment. May I inquire as to whether or not counsel of the com- 
mittee indicated to Private Schine that he might be called as a witness ? 
I assume counsel of the committee has been interviewing him from 
time to time. 

Senator Mundt. That is a question counsel will have to answer. 

Senator Jackson. Yes. Just to keep the record straight, 

Mr. Jexkins. I am sorry. 

Senator Jacksox. The question, Mr. Jenkins, is this : Did you indi- 
cate during the course of interviews with Private Schine that he might 
be a witness in this proceeding ? 

]\Ir. Jexkixs. Yes, a witness generall}', but I gave no indication 
that he would be called out of turn, so to speak, to testify with respect 
to the photogra])hs, and I am sure that Private Schine knew nothing 
about it until approximately noon or shortly thereafter yesterday. 

Senator Jacksox". I understand that, but when did you indicate to 
him that he might be a witness ? Is that a week ago, or the past few 
days? 

Mr. Jexkixs. It was on the occasion of my discussing with Mr. 
Cohn, and others on the staff, including Private Schine, the facts at 
which time the question of this photograph was brought up; and I 
would say approximately a week ago. 

Senator Jacksox. Did you indicate that he could have counsel? 
Was that discussed, if you recall ? 

Mr. Jexkixs. I am sure it was not. 

Senator Jacksox. Mr. Chairman, I feel very strongly, as you know, 
from my previous requests, that when I suggested that he be invited, 
and that he also be advised that he have the right to counsel, that I 
think every consideration should be given to Private Schine to defer 
testifying if he so desires until he has counsel, because I do believe the 
right of counsel is very, very important and it is for that reason that 
I made the request the day before yesterday that he be so advised of 
his right to counsel, and appear. 

Senator Mundt. May the Chair inquire 

Senator Jackson. And I think the committee ought to go out of 
its way, if necessary, even if it does make the hearings inconvenient, 
to assure to Private Schine at this time that he has an absolute right 
to counsel before he proceeds further. 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Dworshak. I also object to any further questioning of 
Private Schine unless he has counsel because I think we are merely 
wasting our time. I think we should proceed with some other witness 
until he does reappear with counsel. 

Senator Potter. I have a point of order, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Potter. 

Senator Potter. Mr. Chairman, it is ray understanding that Schine 
was called to the stand to hz a witness for the sole purpose of giving 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 495 

the committee information concerning this photograph. We spent 
a coiii:)le of hours on it yesterday. 

I think Private Schine has testified that he went to New York 
and got the photograph and brought it back and gave it to a mem- 
ber of the committee. He has testified that he had no knowledge of 
tampering with the j)liotograph in any respect. I can't for the life 
of me understand why we are wasting so much time with Private 
Schine on the stand when he has already testified to the x^ertinent mat- 
ter concerning which he is a witness. 

If there is another line of inquiry, I think in fairness to Private 
Schine and in fairness to the members of the committee we should be 
informed as to vrhat the purpose of the inquiry is and what we are 
seeking to find out. Otherwise, I think that Private Schine has given 
the committee all the information that is necessary in this case. I 
think we are wasting a lot of time, and in order to expedite the hear- 
ings we should stick to the pertinent questions. 

Senator Mundt. You mean not in this case, but in connection with 
the photograph? 

Senator Potter. With the photograph. I understand that is the 
only purpose for which he is a witness at this time. It seems to me 
that he has testified fully and completely concerning that photograph. 
I can't for the life of me understand why he is on the stand again this 



morning. 



Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman, I am thoroughly in accord with what 
Senator Potter has said. I think Private Schine's knowledge of the 
particular point of inquiry has been thoroughly explored, and I have 
no further questions to ask him. If no one else has, I suggest that 
he be excused and that we call the next witness and proceed with the 
hearing. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair has none. How about you. Senator 
McClellan? 

Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, at the proper time I may want 
to ask Private Schine another question or two, but I shall not ask him 
any question until he has had the opportunity to consult with counsel 
to determine whether he wishes counsel. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dirksen? 

Senator Dirkson. No questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Jackson. 

Senator Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I make the same point that was 
made by Senator McClellan. I have some additional questions to ask 
him that may or may not be material in this matter. I strongly believe 
that there should be an affirmative answer one way or the other on 
his desirability as to counsel, whether he desires counsel, 

I think we ought to know, say, by Monday, what his wishes are in 
this matter. I shall defer asking any further questions until I have 
had an answer on that. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Potter ? 

Senator Pott'er. No. I still contend that Private Schine has given 
the committee all the information that we need concerning this photo- 
graph, which was the purpose for which Dave Schine was called to 
the witness stand. I don't wish to keep him here any longer. It is 
not fair to him, and we are wasting the time of the committee. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Symington? 

46620°— 54— pt. 13 2 



496 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator Stmington. Mr, Chairman, I have some questions I would 
like to ask Mr. Schine, and I don't want to ask them until he has made 
his position clear with resjDect to whether or not he wants counsel and 
has communicated to the committee in writing. Wlien he has a chance 
to find out whether he wants counsel, I think he should so tell the 
committee. If he does not want counsel, then we can question him 
without a counsel. If he does want a counsel, he most certainl}' has 
the right and should have the right to have one. I have no further 
questions of the witness at this time. 

Senator Mundt. Are there any questions that you want the private 
to answer now, Senator Symington? Very well. Senator Dworshak? 

Senator Dworshak. No questions at this time. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. AVelch ? There you are. 

Mr. Welch. ]\Ir. Chairman, I had 1 or 2 questions that I wanted to 
ask, and, like the other Senators, I feel very deeply that this witness 
should at least consult with a lawyer as to whether or not the lawyer 
advises him that he should be represented by counsel, before he is 
questioned furtlier. The decisions, as I indicated last night, are, I 
think, somewhat more grave than this young private might under- 
stand, without the opportunity to talk to a lawyer of high standing. 

Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy? 

Senator McCarthy. No questions. I would merely like to second 
wholeheartedly what Senator Potter has just said. 

Senator Mundt. Very well. Private Schine, the Chair would like 
to request that between now and Monday morning you consult with 
counsel if you propose to consult with counsel, and that the next time 
you are called to the stand you come prepared, while testifying 
under oath, to tell us whether you desire counsel or not. Will you do 
that? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, I think the record should be 
clear that Private Schine this morning volunteered that he would be 
glad to answer any questions with regard to the photograph, without 
counsel. 

Is that correct. Private Schine ? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. And as to other matters that might be in- 
quired upon, you want to consult counsel to determine whether or not 
you want a lawyer? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Tlie Chair hears no other questions 

Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Senator McClellan ? 

Senator McClellan. No one is waiving his right to further inter- 
rogate this witness about the picture by passing until such time as 
he can determine whether he wishes counsel ? 

Senator Mundt. That is understood.: 

Senator McClellan. I do not want any implication that no further 
questions were desired at this time with respect to the picture. I do 
not know whether I shall want to or not, but I do feel that he should 
be given every opportunity to determine whether he wishes counsel. 

Senator Mundt. That is understood, and the Chair has just stated 
that in the circumstances which confront us, it appears that no mem- 
ber of this committee and no counsel desires to ask further questions. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 497 

If that is correct, the witness will be dismissed until recalled, with 
the understanding that if recalled on Monday or the next time recalled, 
you will be prepared to tell us about your counsel connection. 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. May I say just one thing? 

Senator Mundt. I guess you might. 

Private Schine. I have thought about my testimony yesterday 
concerning the McGuire photograph, and I believe I have given an 
exact account of the circumstances relating to the McGuire 
photograph. 

Concerning the Colony Restaurant, I have checked to see whether 
I was right in stating that George Anastos was not there, and he 
informs me that he wasn't there. 

Senator Potter. That he was not? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. 

Senator Mundt. The witness is dismissed until further called. 

Private Schine. Thank you, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Counsel will call the next witness. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman, I want as the next witness Mr. George 
Anastos. 

Senator Mundt. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about 
to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 
so help you God ? 

Mr. Anastos. I do. 

Senator Mundt. You may proceed. 

TESTIMONY OF C. GEOKGE ANASTOS 

Mr. Jenkins. Will you tell the committee your full name, please? 

Mr. Anastos. C. George Anastos; "C" for Cosmas. 

Mr. Jenkins. What position do you hold, Mr. Anastos? 

Mr. Anastos. I am assistant counsel with the Senate Permanent 
Subcommittee on Investigations. 

Mr. Jenkins. How long have you been thus employed ? 

Mr. Anastos. Since sometime in September. 

Mr. Jenkins. Will you come up closer to the microphone, please. 

Senator Jackson. I did not get the nr.ture of the position. 

Mr. Anastos. Assistant counsel, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. To the Senate Investigating Committee ? 

Mr. xiNASTos. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Anastos, I will ask you whether or not within 
recent days a photograph was delivered to you by Mr. Schine. 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. When did that occur? 

Mr. xVnastos. It was on Thursday last when, after I had met Private 
Schine at the airport and we came back to the Senate Office Building 
to Room 101, at which time Private Schine delivered a bundle of 
papers onto the desk of Frank Carr in Room 101. As I recall, he said, 
"You want this," or something like that, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Was that bundle or package opened in your presence ? 

Mr. Anast€s. No. sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Did you ever see the contents? 

Mr. Anastos. At a subsequent time 

Mr. Jenkins. But at that time ? 

Mr. Anastos. No, sir. 



498 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr, Jenkins. Did Private Schiiie tell joii Vv-hat the bundle con- 
tained? 

Mr. Anastos. I believe that when we got to Room 101 there was 
mention made of a photograph. 

Mr. Jenkins. You say that it was laid on the desk of Mr. Garr? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Who was present at that time, Mr. Anastos? 

Mr. Anastos. Mrs. Frances ]\Iims. 

Mr. Jenkins. I did not get the name. 

Mr. Anastos. Frances Minis, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mrs. Frances Mims. 

Senator Mundt. The secretary of the committee. 

Mr. Jenkins. Who is she ? 

Mr. Anastos. A secretary on the subcommittee. 

Mr. Jenkins. Was anyone else present besides you, Mr. Schine, 
and Mrs. Mims? 

Mr. Anastos. I am pretty sure there was not anybody else present, 
sir, because as I recall the hearings were going on and most of the 
staff Avere up here. 

Mr. Jenkins. As I understand it, you were not present when the 
package was opened. 

Mr. Anastos. That is right. That is correct, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. That is correct. You say that you later saw the con- 
tents of tiie package ? 

Mr. Anastos. Well, at a subsequent time I was told to Ijring 
some papers up to the committee room here. As I recall, I think 
Frances sort of opened — she did not actually — she partly opened it, 
I guess, to take a look at the photograph. I kind of looked, but I 
did not get a real good look at the thing. 

Mr. Jenkins. Did you see the entire photograph which you 
brought up here to be introduced as evidence ? 

Mr. Anastos. No, sir; no, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You do not know, therefore, whether there were 2 
or 3 people shown in the photograph ? 

Mr. Anastos. Absolutely not, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Did you ever at any time see the original photo- 
graph delivered to you in that package, assuming that it was in the 
package, by Mr. Schine ? 

Mr. Anastos. No, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins, ]\Ir. Anastos, if a person's picture was cut out of 
the original, if that did occur, do you know anything about it what- 
ever ? 

]\Ir. Anastos. jSTo, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins, Did you have anything to do with it? 

Mr. Anastos. Absolutely not, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Then the last time that you saw the original pack- 
age delivered to you by Mr. Schine was in room 101, in INIr. Carr's 
office, at which time you, Mr. Schine, and Mrs. ]\Iims were present, 
is that correct? 

Mr. Anastos, The last time? 

Mr. Jenkins, Yes, that you saw that original package? 

Mr. Anastos. You mean "as it w\as delivered by Private Schine? 

Mr. Jenkins. As delivered to you by Mr. Schine? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir ; that is right. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 499 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Aiiastos, did anyone ever tell you that they 
knew anything about anyone altering or changing or cutting out an 
individual from that picture ? 

Mr. Anastos. There was talk about the photograph being brought 
down stairs, to the photograph room ; but I don't know anything of 
my own personal knowledge. 

Mr. Jenkins. Do you know anything from what anyone told you 
about Avho, if anyone, did cut out one of the individuals in the 
original picture? 

Mr. Anastos. I do not know who cut out, if they did cut it out. 

Mr. Jenkins. One other question, Mr. Anastos, or two others, 
now. To whom did you deliver the picture here in this room last 
week ? 

Mr. Anastos. Well, I was told to bring up the papers, which in- 
cluded the wrapped-up photograph. 

Mr. Jenkins. And to whom did you deliver it ? 

Mr. Anastos. Up to Jim Juliana, and, as I recall, he met me half 
way down this aisle, and I handed it to him. 

Mr. Jenkins. He is a member of the staff ? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Anastos, did you attend a dinner or a party or 
a gathering at the Colony Restaurant here in Washington on Monday 
night of this week? 

Mr. Anastos. Absolutely not, sir. As a matter of fact, fortunately, 
I had dinner with two other men that evening, at Pierre's Restaurant, 
here in town. 

Mr. Jenkins. I have no other questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair gathers from that last remark that if 
there continues to be any question about where you were Monday 
night you are able to provide two witnesses as to where you were, is 
that correct? 

Mr. Anastos. Absolutely, sir. 

Senator Mundt. And it was not the Colony Restaurant ? 

Mr. Anastos. That is right, sir. 

Senator Mundt. I have one other question : Does the Chair under- 
stand your part in this photograph transaction to be strictly limited 
to having received a wrapped package covering something which 
you believed to be a photograph, but which you did not see, and trans- 
mitting that wrapped package to a third party ? 

Mr. Anastos. Well, as I say, it was on the desk and I never handled 
it. 

Senator Mundt. You never handled it at all ? 

Mr. Anastos. No, except that at a subsequent time I brought it up to 
this room. 

Senator Mundt. One other brief comment. The Chair asked a 
number of questions yesterday which grew out of the fact that the big 
picture and the small original seemed to be considerably different from 
the standpoint of the amount of coat shown at tlie bottom of the pic- 
ture, and so forth. 

Now, there is a paucity of information about enlargements and con- 
tractions, and changes 'of photographs. That begins to be rather 
pertinent, and it may or may not be. But some of his photographic 
friends told him afterward, and he simply wants that to be in the 



500 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

record, that it is possible to take off the bottom of the picture without 
takino- off the top and vice versa. 

So that tlie Chair doesn't know whether his questions are very per- 
tinent or not, or whether what we have before us is a photograph which 
has twice been amputated, instead of being amputated only once. I 
simply want to say that there may not have been much pertinency 
to my questions on that score. 

Senator McClellan, it is your turn to ask questions if you have any. 

Senator McClellan. I didn't quite understand you a while ago, 
Mr. Anastos. You brought the picture from the airport and laid it 
on a desk in what office ? 

Mr. Akastos. Sir, I didn't bring it from the airport. Private 
Schine handled the whole thing, and he brought it in, and he delivered 
it. I suppose he means he delivered it to me by putting it on the desk, 
but as I say, as I recall he said something like "Here it is," or "Here is 
the stuff," or something like that. 

Senator McClellan. I may have misunderstood him, and I am 
not raising any question about it; I thought he testified that he 
delivered it to you. 

Mr. Anastos. Well, I don't know 

Senator McClellan. Did he? 

Mr. Anastos. Sir, he did not give it to me ; I did not take it from 
his hands. He came and put it on the desk. 

Senator IMcClellan. Who else was in the room when he laid it on 
the desk in your presence 'I 

Mr. Anastos. That is right, sir. 

Senator McClellan. I ask you who else was present at the time he 
laid it on the desk, in your presence? 

Mr. Anastos. Mrs. Frances Mims. 

Senator McClellan. Did he tell you he was delivering the picture 
to you ? 

Mr. Anastos. He didn't say he was delivering it to me, or anything 
like that. 

Senator McClellan. Well, now, he said that he delivered it to you; 
is that correct or not? I don't know and I am just asking you and 
he has testified. 

Mr. Anastos. Sir, he didn't say; as I recall, he said, "Here it is." 

Senator McClellan. Did you take possession of the picture at any 
time ? 

JMr. Anastos. No, sir. 

Senator McClellan. You are positive you did not? 

Mr. Anastos. Absolutely not. 

Senator McClellan. Then it was not delivered to you? 

Mr. Anastos. No, sir, in that sense that he didn't 

Senator McClellan. Was it delivered to you in any sense ? 

Mr. Anastos. Well, sir, I don't know what he has in his mind. 

Senator McClellan. I don't either. I am asking you, and you are 
one of the parties. 

Mr. Anastos. Sir, he may have delivered it in a sense that he thought 
he was giving it to my custody, or my possession, but I never took 
possession or custody of it. 

Senator ]\IcClellan. If he thought he was doing that, he was mis- 
taken, and you didn't take custody? 

!Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 501 

Senator McClellan. Is that right? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes. sir. 

Senator McClellan. So you know nothing about it except it was 
left there on the desk ? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. It was on the desk when you left the room ? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. Who else was present when you left? 

Mr. Anastos. Mrs. Frances Mims was there. 

Senator McClellan. Mrs. who? 

INIr. Anastos. Mrs. Mims. 

Senator McClellan. That is all you know about it? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir; and I walked out of the room. 

Senator McClellan. That is all, Mr. Chairman. , 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dirksen. 

Senator Dirksen. I have no questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Jackson. 

Senator Jackson. Why did you go to the airport? 

Mr. Anastos. I was told to go there, sir. 

Senator Jackson. Who told you to go to the airport? 

Mr. Anastos. Mrs. Mims told me that she had received a message 
from Mr. Cohn, for me to go to the airport and meet Private Schine 
and bring him to the office. 

Senator Jackson. Had you been advised of the nature of his trip 
to New York? 

Mr. Anastos. No, sir. 

Senator Jackson. And you hadn't heard anything about his having 
a picture with him when he arrived ? 

Mr. Anastos. No, sir. I didn't know tliat he had a picture with him. 

Senator Jackson. All you know it that you received instructions 
to meet him at the airport? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson. And to bring him in. 

Mr. Anastos. That is right, sir. 

Senator Jackson. To the office? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson. Did you at any time, at any time during this 
period, hear any conversation or discussion about cutting down the 
size of this picture in controversy ? 

Mr. Anastos. No, sir. 

Senator Jackson. You never heard any discussion in the office or 
elsewhere wath anyone about it ? 

Mr. Anastos. No. I had nothing to do with the blowing up or 
taking negatives of the thing. 

Senator Jackson. Not only did you not have any Imowledge 
directly, you did not hear about anything in connection with it ? 

Mr. Anastos. Afterward, sir, after the point had been raised. 

Senator Jackson. In the hearings here ? 

Mr. Anastos. In the hearings. 

Senator Jackson. No, I meant prior to that. 

Mr. Anastos. No, sir, I did not. 

Senator Jackson. All you heard about was some talk in the office 
about the photo being brought downstairs. You testified that you 
heard talk in the committee room 



502 SPECIAL INVESTIGATIOISr 

]Mr. Anastos. Oh, yes, when we were being interviewed by Mr. 
Jenkins' statf. 

Senator Jackson. I meant up until the time the picture was intro- 
duced in evidence on Monday. 

Mr. Anastos. Oh, no, I didn't. 

Senator Jackson. That is all. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Potter. 

Senator Potter. Did you testify to the fact that you did not see 
the photograph again from the time the package was opened in the 
office, room 101, until you were asked to bring the photograph up to Mr. 
Juliana? 

Mr. Anastos. As I recall, Senator, just before I was to take the 
photograph and some other papers up to this room, Frances ISIims, 
I think, kind of took a peek at it or something like that. I kind of 
looked over it, but I did not get a real good look at the picture at all. 

Senator Potteij. You did not examine the photograph ? 

Mr. Anastos. No, sir, I did not. 

Senator Potter. You have no knowledge of any work being done 
on the photograph, you were not present when anything was clone to 
the photograph? 

Mr. Anastos. No, sir. 

Senator Poiter. The only suggestion I have, Mr. Chairman, is that 
if we are going to continue to bat around the names of restaurants 
here in Washington, we should charge for commercials. [Laughter.] 

Senator Mundt. The Chair must remind the Senator that com- 
mercials have been eliminated from the broadcast in accordance wuth 
the committee rules. Senator Symington. 

Senator Symington. Do you state definitely this picture was never 
in your custody ? 

Mr. Anastos. I have never done anything with it. It was left 

Senator Symington. Did you ever touch it? 

Mr. Anastos. I may have put my hand on it, you know, when it 
was still covered over. 

Senator Symington. But you state you did not ever have custody 
of it, or did have. That is, ]>hysical custody of it. 

Mr. Anastos. I never really handled it as such; no, sir. 

Senator Symington. I have no further questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dworshak. 

Senator Dw^orsiiak. No questions. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch. 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Anastos, you are, I think, a lawyer. Is that right ? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And a graduate of that somewhat suspect place. 
Harvard ? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And you are a classmate of my brilliant young assist- 
ant, Jim St. Clair? 

Mr. Anastos. I don't remember him as a classmate. 

]\fr. Welch. Take a look. There is a classmate of yours, I am 
sure. 

Mr. Anastos. I remember meeting Mr. St. Clair in Boston. 

Senator Mundt. The committee is being deprived of this delightful 
colloquy. I wish you gentlemen would speak up. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 503 

Mr. Welch. I was makinc: an introduction, Mr. Chairman. He 
ha])pens to be a classmate of Mr. St. Clair. 

Senator Po'iter. A point of order. That would not be considered 
guilt by association. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair so rules. 

Proceed, Mr. Welch. 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Anastos, I may be wrong in this, but using an 
underworld phrase you kind of give me the impression that you feel 
this picture has become "hot," is that right? 

Mr. Anastos. It certainly has, 

Mr. Welch. You just have a kind of a feeling you do not want to 
be any closer to that "hot" picture than you have to be? 

Mr. AxASTOs. That is absolutely correct. 

Mr. Welch. The closest we have got you to the "hot" picture is that 
you might have placed your hand on it and quickly withdraAvn it. Is 
that right, sir? 

Mr. Anastos. I did not quickly withdraw it. 

Mr. Welch. Maybe my gesture was too abrupt, sir. But if you did 
place your hand on the "hot" picture, you also reasonably promptly 
withdrew it, is that right? 

Mr. Anastos. I didn't fondle it, sir. 

Mr. Welch. I understood you to say that when Mr. Schine brought 
the bundle into the room, he said the picture was included; is that 
right ? 

J\lr. Anastos. After it was brought to the room, I believe there was 
some discussion as to a photograph. 

Mr. Welch. Yes, he said he brought one. 

Mv. Anastos. As I recall. 

Mr. Welch. There were two people in that room, is that right ? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir, three of us. 

jMr. Welch. Meaning there was Private Schine, is that right ? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And you ? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir. 

IMr. Welch. And idrs. Mims— is it Nims or Mims ? 

Mr. Anastos. Mims. 

Mr. Welch. M-i-m-s? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes. 

Mr. Welch. Private Schine was not delivering the picture to Mrs. 
Mims, was he ? 

Mr. Anastos. No, sir. 

Mr. Welch. So it is clear, is it not, that when he put it down in that 
room, he delivered it to you ? 

Mr. Anastos. Well, he delivered it to me in a sense. 

Mr. Welch. In any old sense ? 

Mr. Anastos. I sujjpose he w\as delivering it to the subcommittee. 

Mr. Welch. You don't mean to the 

Mr. Anastos. And I am a member of the subcommittee; so in a 
sense he did deliver it to me. 

IMr. Welch. I am talking about human beings. The human being 
to whom the picture was delivered was not named Mims, was she? 

jNIr. Anastos. Well, he could well have been delivering it to her and 
to me, or to me alone. I didn't know what was in it. 

46620°— 54— pt. 13 3 



504 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

]Mr. Welch. You just told us a minute ago he wasn't delivering it 
to her. 

]Mr. Anastos. He may have been delivering it to both of us. I sup- 
pose since the secretary and I 

]\Ir. Welch. O. K., will you take 50 percent possession of the "hot" 
picture ? 

Mr. Anastos, It doesn't make any difference, sir. I would just 
as soon say that it was in a sense delivered to me, but it wasn't actually 
given to me. 

Mr. Welch. Why does it take us so long to get to that point if that 
is the actual fact? 

Mr. Anastos. Sir, I have explained it to the subcommittee before. 

Mv. Welch. You say Frances, as you call her— and I don't mean to 
be discourteous to her — Frances opened it ? Y>''as that the phrase you 
used ? 

Mr. Anastos. Later, when it was ready to be brought up to this 
subcommittee 

Mr. Welch. Oh, after you had left there, she opened it? 

Mr. Anastos. No, no. I had returned. I was told to bring it up 
to this room. 

Mr. Y\''ELGir. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Anastos. Just before I took that and other papers to be brought 
up here, as I recall she kind of pushed the thing aside, pushed the paper 
in the front just to take a look. 

]Mr. Welch. A look. And you took a little peek yourself? 

]\Ir. Anastos. That is right. 

Mr. Welch. Did you take a good enough peek so you could tell us 
if the picture had a cast of three characters? 

Mr. Anastos. No, sir. I didn't take a real good look. I know 
Schine and Mr. Stevens and, for all I know, there could have been 
three or a dozen other people in there. 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Anastos, had you, prior to the time that "hot" 
picture was brought in to that room, heard any discussion about the 
fact that there was in existence a picture of Secretary Stevens and 
Private Schine alone? 

Mr. Anastos. No, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Not a word? 

Mr. Anastos. Not alone, sir; not alone. 

Mr. Welch. You hadn't heard that? 

Mr. Anastos. I may have heard that — when was this, sir? 

Mr. Welch. Any old time. 

Mr. Anastos. Oh, when I was just about to take it up to the room, 
at that time I knew there was a picture of Private Schine and Secretary 
Stevens. 

Mr. Welch. Alone? 

Mr. Anastos. No, I didn't know whether it was alone. 

Mr. Welch. Were you in this hearing room when that picture was 
sprung on Mr. Stevens with the suggestion that he was scarcely telling 
the truth when he said he could not remember ever having had a 
picture taken with Private Schine alone? 

Mr. Anastos. I believe I was, sir. I either was or I was watching 
it on television. 

Mr. Welch. Were you, as assistant counsel, preparing this case for 
presentation in this room? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 505 

Mr. Anastos. I have been called upon to help to a certain extent 
on various matters pertainino; to this case, but 1 was not asked to do 
anything in regard to tliis photograph except to go to get Private 
Schine at the airport, at which time I didn't even know he had a 
picture with liim. and then subsequently I was asked to bring this 
photograph and the papers upstairs in this committee room. 

Mr. Welch. Will somebody help me to see the first picture that 
was introduced in evidence which purports to show Secretary Stevens 
and Private Schine alone. 

Mr. Anastos, there is at the top of this picture the word "McGuire 
AFB— Fort Dix, November 17, 1953." Who put that on there? 

Mr. Anastos. I never saw anybody put it on. 

Mr. Welch. Tell me who put it on ? 

Mr. Anastos. As I recall, I think that while we were being inter- 
viewed by Mr. Jenkins' staff yesteiday, as I recall I heard Jim Juliana 
tell Mr. Jenkins' staff, Mr. Collier and Mr. Horowitz, that he had put 
it on the top. 

Mr. Welch. All right. Now, at least we know that, that Jim 
Juliana put the letter G on the picture that appears on top of it 

Mr. Anastos. That is right. 

Mr. Welch. After the picture was brought here, is that right? 

Mr. Anastos. As I recall, he told Mr. Jenkins' staff that yesterday. 

Mr. Welch. And you heard it, is that right? 

Mr. Anastos. That is my recollection, sir. 

Mr. Welch. One other thing, or two other things. When you 
were asked about the dinner last Monday night, and the question was 
put to you as to whether or not you were there, do you remember 
that, being asked that question ? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And I remember your answer was that, fortunately, 
you were somewhere else, with two other gentlemen, is that right? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Centering your attention on the word "fortunately," 
do you also consider that that was a "hot" dinner? 

Mr. Anastos. At least it has become, it seems to have become a 
big issue yesterday ; and my name was mentioned so often at yester- 
day's hearings that it almost seemed as though there was a cloud 
over my name for having been there, or having done something, in 
regard to that picture where Schine appeared. General Lawton 
and I didn't even know about that picture until yesterday's hearing. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch's time has expired. 

Senator McCarthy ? 

Senator McCarthy. Just one or two very brief questions. 

George, when did you come with the committee ? 

Mr. Anastos. In September of 1953. 

Senator McCarthy. Where did you work prior to that ? 

Mr. Anastos. In the Department of Justice. 

Senator McCarthy. How long had you worked with the Depart- 
ment of Justice ? 

Mr. Anastos. Almost 3 years.' 

Senator McCarthy. And you came in under what Attorney 
General ? 

Mr. Anastos. Attorney General McGrath, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. McGrath ? 



506 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir. 

Senator JNIcCartiiy. And you served under McGrath and what 
other attorneys general ? 

Mr. Anastos. Attorney General McGranery and Attorney General 
Brownell. 

Senator McCarthy. Brownell ? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes. 

Senator McCarthy. And you left the Department of Justice one 
day and came with the committee the next day, is that correct ? 

Mr. Anastos. No, sir, I gave them 2 weeks' notice, as a matter of 
courtesy. 

Senator McCarthy^. But I mean you worked in the Department 
one day and the next day you were working on the committee staff? 

INIr. xInastos. I think it was over a weekend. 

Senator McCarthy. Over a weekend? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. You were not fired, and you resigned? 

Mr. Anastos. I resigned in order to take this position. 

Senator McCarthy. Take a job wnth the committee? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir, Senator. 

Senator McCarthy. And you served under two Democrat attor- 
neys general and under one Republican, is that correct? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, Senator. 

Senator McCarthy. I have no further questions. 

Senator Mundt. Does counsel have any ? 

Mr. Jenkins. I have no further questions. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair has none. 

Senator McClellan? Any of the Senators at my right have any 
further questions? At my left? 

Senator Jackson. I have no questions. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch, do you have any further questions ? 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, I think it is time my assistant faced the 
microphone, and he is going to take a short turn, and then, I think, we 
will be through. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. St. Clair, representing the counsel in connec- 
tion with Mr. Welch. 

Mr. St. Clair. How are you, George ? 

Mr. Anastos. All right. 

Senator Jackson. Is this going to be a class reunion ? 

Senator Mundt. It appears that way. 

Mr. St. Clair? 

Mr. St. Clair. George, when were you first interviewed by Mr. 
Jenkins with reference to any of the matters presented here to this 
committee hearing ? 

Mr. Anastos. First, well, the only interview was yesterday. 

Mr. St. Clair. You had never been interviewed before either alone 
or in conjunction with any other members of your stall' ? 

Mr. Anastos. By Mr. Jenkins' staff? 

Mr. St. Clair. By ISIr. Jenkins' staff or by Mr. Jenkins ? 

Mr. Anastos. I don't recall. 

Mr. St. Clair. Were you present when Mr. Schine was interviewed 
with reference to this picture ? 

3.ir. Anastos. I don't think I was there ; I may have been, I forget. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 507 

Mr. St. Ci^mr. When did you first learn that there was in existence 
a picture of the description that "we have had here in the last few 
days? 

Mr. Anastos. Would you please repeat that question ? 

Mr. St. Clair. Would the reporter read the question ? 

(The reporter read from his notes as requested.) 

Mr. Anastos. You rncan this picture? 

Mr. St. Clair. Either this one or the blown-up picture or the one 
that Private Schine cave us yesterday. 

Mr. Anastos. Well, as I said, Avhen I broui:^ht up a photograph, the 
photograph up to the committee room, I knev/ there was a picture of 
Schine and Mr. Stevens and I didn't know whether there was anybody 
else. 

Mr. St. Clair. Was inquiry ever made of you, George, as to how it 
came about that there were only two persons in the picture that was 
presented here last Monday ? 

Mr. Anastos. Well, I think after Mr. Welch had raised the point 
of somebody, of a third person being cut out of the picture, naturally 
downstairs in our office there was general speculation and discussion as 
to what had happened. 

Mr. St. Clx\ir. Who was there ? Was Mr. Colin there ? 

Mr. Anastos. Well, I think practically all of them. 

Mr. St. Cuur. AVas Mr. Cohn there ? 

Mr. Anastos. Well, I don't know. I have heard him discuss gen- 
erally the question of what had happened in connection with the 
picture. 

Mr. St. Clair. In that connection, did you learn that someone had 
cut off a third person from the picture ? 

Mr. Anastos. W^ell, I never found out if anybody had given any 
particular 

Mr. St. Clair. Just answer the question. Did you learn that some- 
one had cut off a third person from the picture? 

Mr. Anastos. Well 

Mr. St. Clair. Just answer "Yes" or "No" if you can. 

Mr. Anastos. Well, I learned, yes. 

Mr. St. Clair. When did you learn that? 

Mr. Anastos. Up at the hearing. 

Mr. St. Clair. You didn't learn it down below ? 

Mr. Anastos. I guess it was understood that a third person had been 
omitted, 

Mr. St. Clair. Now I want to read you, George, part of Mr. Cohn's 
testimony, on page 629 of the transcript which reads as follows: 

I now find on inquiry of a member of the staff that they saw some third 
person who was not recognizable, and was not recognized standing to the sitfe; 
that Mr. Stevens and Mr. Schine were facing each other, and looking at each 
other. There was a third person standing on the side and they thought that third 
person had no relevancy, and had nothing to do with it, and that the picture 
wanted was a picture of Stevens and Schine. 

Were you the person that gave Mr. Cohn that information, George? 

]Mr. Anastos. Well, we have discussed 

Mr. St. Clair. Just answer the question. Were you the person that 
gave Mr. Cohn that information ? 
Mr. Anastos. I may have been one of a number of people. 
Mr. St. Clair. So you knew it then? 



508 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr. Anastos. You mean after the hearing? 

Mr. St. Clair. No, you knew there was a person there who was not 
recognizable in the Language of Mr. Cohn? 

Mr. Anastos. Oh, no, sir. 

Mr. St. Clair. And that someone thought it was not relevant, is 
that right ? 

Mr. Anastos. No, sir. 

Mr. St. Clair. You weren't the person that informed JNIr. Cohn of 
that fact, then ? 

Mr. Anastos. No, sir. 

Mr. St. Clair. Do you know that there was a member of the staff 
of the subcommittee? 

Mr. Anastos. Well, sir, I know there has been. We have generally, 
at various times, discussed the legal points involved. 

Mr. St. Clair. The question, do you know that it was a member of 
the staff of the subcommittee? 

Mr. Anastos. I may have heard something like that. 

Mr. St. Clair. From whom did you hear it? 

Mr. Anastos. I don't recall. I know w^e all, members of the staff 

Mr. St. Clair. You believe Mr. Cohn's testimony, don't you? 

Mr. Anastos. Which testimony? 

Mr. St. Clair. To the effect that there was a third person there, and 
that he said was unrecognizable, and that a member of the staff had 
cut it out. 

Mr. Anastos. Well 

Senator McCarthy. I have been sitting here patiently through all 
of this nonsense, and this is a waste of time. It is obviously improper 
and this young man knows it, to ask a witness to evaluate another 
witness' testimony, and to ask whether he believes it or not. 

Only the committee can determine whether or not they believe the 
testimony. I think that we should be done with this waste of time. 

Senator AIundt. You may proceed, Mr. St. Clair. 

Mr. St. Clair. Mr. Chairman, may I have an answer to the 
question? 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, the point of order was to the 
question, that you cannot ask one witness to evaluate another witness's 
testimony. 

Senator Mundt. We will have the question reread at this time, 
£0 Ave will know what the question was. 

(The question was read by the reporter.) 

Senator McCarthy. Will you reread the Avhole question ? The ques- 
tion is Avhether or not he belicA^es JSIr. Cohn's testimony. 

Senator Mdndt. We are trying to determine whether or not the 
question is asking the witness to evaluate the testimony of another 
witness. 

(The record was read by the reporter.) 

Senator Mundt. The ])oint of order will be sustained. I do not 
believe that one witness should be called upon to evaluate the testi- 
mony of another. The timekeeper has advised the Chair that Mr. 
St. Clair's time has expired. 

Mr. St. Clair. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy, have you any questions? 

Senator IMcCarthy. No questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Counsel? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 509 

Mr. Jenkins. None here, Mr. Cliairman. 

8enator Mundt. The Chair has none. 

Senator McClellan ? 

Senator McClellan. No questions. 

Senator Mundt. Any Senators to my right? To my left? 

Mr. St. Chiir or Mr. Welch, if you have further questions, you may 
ask them now. 

Mr. St. Clair. I called to your attention, George, that Mr. Colin 
testified the other day that he in substance made an inquiry of a 
member of the staff and learned from him that a third person had 
been on the picture. You are not the person that Mr. Cohn inquired 
of, is that correct? 

Mr. Anastos. No, absolutely not. 

Mr. St. Clair. Do you know who the person was Mr. Cohn in- 
quired of? 

Mr. Anastos. No, sir. 

Mr. St. Clair. When did you first learn that there was a picture 
of the Secretary and Private Schine alone? 

Mr. Anastos.- I never knew that they were necessarily alone. 

Mr. St. Clair. You never knew that ? 

Mr. Anastos. No. 

Mr. St. Clair. Did you have much to do with the preparation of 
this case for the committee ? 

Mr. Anastos. Some. 

Mr. St. Clair. This is the only tangible piece of evidence produced 
by the subcommittee so far, is it not, or at least the first piece? 

Mr. Anastos. It is not for me to decide. 

Mr. St. Clair. This is the first piece, wasn't it? 

Mr. Anastos. I have not been here at all the hearings, and I do 
not remember whether there were some others. 

Mr. St. Clair. Was the photograph produced by the staff a matter 
of elation when it was produced and prior thereto ? 

Mr. Anastos. I did not attach any great importance to it. I 
thought it was one bit of evidence that would be helpful in the case. 

Mr. St. Clair. When did you first have that thought, George? 

Mr. Anastos. When I first learned that there was a photograph. 

Mr. St. Clair. "Wlien was that ? 

Mr. Anastos. As I testified, shortly after Private Schine had 
brought the photograph in the room I believe that he mentioned the 
fact that there was a photograph. 

Mr. St. Clair. What did he say about the photograph ? 

Mr. Anastos. I did not stay there very long. 

Mr. St. Clair. Just answer if he said anything. What did he 
say about it ? 

Mr. Anastos. He did not actually tell me anything about the picture 
as such. 

Mr. St. Clair. Did Mrs. Minis tell you about it? 

Mr. Anastos. At that particular time? No. 

Mr. St. Clair. You knew some time before it was introduced in 
evidence that there was such a picture in existence ? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes. 

Mr. St. Clair. From whom did you learn that fact? 

Mr. Anastos. At the time that— As I sa}^ 

Mr. St. Clair. The question is, From whom, sir? 



510 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr. Anastos. Private Schine mentioned the fact that there was a 
picture. 

]\Ir. St. Clair. What did he say about the picture? 

Mr. Anastos. He just said, "I have a photograph here," or some- 
thing like that. I don't remember the exact words. 

Mr. St. Clair. Did he say anything about it as to who was in it ? 

Mr. Anastos. He may have mentioned that, I don't recalh 

Mr. St. Clair. You had no doubt that he and the Secretary were 
in the picture, did you ? 

Mr. Anastos. I did not know anything about this photograph as 
such. I went down to pick him up and bring him over to room 101. 
I knew nothing about it. When he came in he brought in this and 
other papers. He probably said something about his being there with 
Sievens in the picture. That is all. 

Mr. St. Clair. That is about all 

Mr. Anastos. He did not actually discuss it, go into the details. 

Mr. St. Clair. So you really never knew there was such a picture 
in existence, right ? 

Mr. Anastos. No, I did not really know the details of the picture. 

Senator McCarthy. j\Ir. Chairman? 

Senator Mundt. Have you a point of order. Senator McCarthy ? 

Senator McCarthy. I have refrained from raising points of order 
because of the fear that by raising them I might take more time un- 
necessarily. We have a young man who picked up Schine and brought 
him to the office and dropped him there. Counsel knows that. Wheth- 
er he is stalling to take up time or what, I don't know, but I do think 
the Chair should ask counsel for Mr. Stevens and Mr. Jenkins not to 
ask questions merely for the purpose of clearing their voices, but only 
ask them if they are looking for information. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair rules that is not a point of order. The 
Chair also holds that the questions are a bit repetitious, but he does 
not think he has any authority to tell counsel they cannot ask ques- 
tions because I do not know what might be in the mind of counsel. 

Mr. St. Clair. If the Chair please, I had just finished. If I was 
repetitious, I am sorry. 

Sejiator Mundt. Did you say you had finished, Mr. St. Clair ? 

Mi\ St. Clair. Yes, I have. 

Senator Mundt. I take it, Senator McCarthy, you have no questions. 
Does anybody have any further questions before we dismiss the 
witness ? 

The witness is dismissed. 

Mr. Jenkins. Call Mrs. Minis, please. 

Senator Mundt. Will you stand and be sworn, please, Mrs. Mims? 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be 
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mrs. MiMs. I do. 

Senator Mundt. You may be seated. 

TESTIMONY OF FRANCES PEHEY MIMS 

Mr. Jenkins. Mrs. Mims, will you please tell the committee your 
full name ? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 511 

Mrs. MiMS. Frances Perry INIims. 

Mr. Jenkins. What official position do you occupy, ]\Irs. Minis? 

Mrs. MiMS. Personal secretary to Mr. Colni and to Mr. Carr. 

Mr, Jenkins How lon<:^ have you been thus employed ? 

Mrs. Miiis. Since approximately August of 1953, 

Mr. Jenkins. Are your offices at No. 101, this building? 

Mrs. MiMS. That is correct. 

INIr. Jenkins. Were you in the office one day last week, Mrs. Mims, 
wliei" Mr. Schine and ]\Ir. Anastos came there, together with a package 
or a bundle ? 

jNIrs. MiMS. I am sure I was, sir; yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Was anyone else present besides you and the two 
names I have called? 

Mrs. MiMS. I do not recall. 

]\Ir. Jenkins. Do you recall about what time of day it was, or 
evening or night, when these two men came ? 

Mrs. MiMs. Mr. Jenkins, I do not. I am sorry. I can't tell you. 

Mr. Jenkins. Do you recall, Mrs. Mims, whether it was in the 
morning, afternoon, or evening? 

Mrs. Mims. I honestly cannot. I don't know. 

Mr. Jenkins. You are a rather busy young lady down there ? 

Mrs. Mims. I am afraid I am. 

]\Ir. Jenkins. Mrs. Mims, without my asking you specific questions 
and for the purpose of exploring the subject under inquiry at this 
rime, T will ask you to just tell this committee the events that tran- 
spired when this package or bundle was delivered to that office? 

Mrs. Mims. Sir, I have very little that I can contribute. I remem- 
ber that Mr. Schine and Mr. Anastos came in. I did not at that 
time know there was a picture involved. I do know there was a 
package, but I never do stay in the inner office when members of the 
staff are there working. They did not ask me to stay, and so I went 
immediately from the office as soon as I delivered a message to Mr. 
Schine, upon his arrival there. I know nothing of the picture, and 
didn't know until later that it was the picture. 

Mr. Jenkins. Do you work in what we would generally term the 
reception room ? 

Mrs. Mims. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Jenkins. Open to the public? 

Mrs. Mi3is. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And did Mr. Schine and Mr. Anastos go into a private 
office? 

]Mrs. Mims. It is my recollection that they did go inside. 

]Mr. Jenkins. Whose office was that, Mrs. Mims? 

Mrs. Mims. The office of Mr. Carr and Mr. Cohn. 

jNIr. Jenkins. Their offices are together in the same room ? 

Mrs, Mims. Yes, sir, it is room 103. 

Mr. Jenkins. Was either Mr. Cohn or Mr. Carr present, if you 
know ? 

Mrs. Mims. I do not recall, sir, 

Mr. Jenkins. Do you recall how long Mr. Anastos and Mr. Schine 
were in that office ? 

]\Irs. Mims. No, sir, I don't ; I am sorry. 

Mr. Jenkins. Did you at that time see the contents of that package? 



512 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mrs. MiMS. No, sir, 

Mr. Jenkins. Did you ever see it, Mrs. Minis ? 

Mrs. MiMS. No, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Did either of these gentlemen tell you what the con- 
tents of the package were? 

Mrs. MiMS. No, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Did anyone ever tell you what the contents of the 
package Avere ? 

Mrs. Mors. No, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins, Did you at that time or subsequent thereto see a 
photograph of the Secretary of the Army, Mr. Schine, and a Colonel 
Bradley ? 

Mrs. MiMs. I have never seen such a picture to this moment. 

Mr. Jenkins. Have you ever seen a picture introduced here by 
counsel for the committee, some time back, and I don't recall the date, 
in which Mr. Stevens and Mr. Schine only are shown ? 

Mrs, MiMS. I have seen some newspaper prints but I haven't seen 
the picture that you are speaking of, the original, 

Mr, Jenkins. Mrs. Mims, if any person cut or altered in anywise 
a picture delivered by jNIr. Schine to the office of the staff, being a 
photograph of himself, the Secretary, and Colonel Bradley, do you 
know anything about it whatever? 

Mrs. MiMS. Not anything at all, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Has anyone ever told you anything about it whatever ? 

Mrs. MiMS. No, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And I take it that you know nothing about a dinner 
party given at the Colony Eestaurant this Monday evening here in 
Washington ? 

Mrs. Mims. No, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You were not one of the honored guests? 

Mrs. MiMS. I was not, sir. I was in my office at work. 

Mr. Jenkins. I have no further questions, ISIr, Chairman. 

Senator Mundt, The Chair has none. 

Senator McClellan? 

Senator McClellan. Mrs. Mims, as I understand it, the package 
purporting to contain the picture was brought to room 101, and car- 
ried into Mr. Carr's and Mr. Cohn's private office; is that correct? 

Mrs, MiMS. I do not even know that that is correct. I did not know 
that the package contained the picture, and I knew nothing of it at all. 

Senator McClelLuVn, You do recall the occasion, then, when Mr. 
Schine and Mr, Anastos did go into the office with a package? 

Mrs, MiMS. Yes, I do, and I followed them to take a message to 
Mr. Schine, 

Senator McClellan. And then you left ? 

Mrs, MiMS. I did. 

Senator McClellan. And you do not know what became of that 
package thereafter, nor what that package contained? 

Mrs. MiMS. No, sir. 

Senator McClellan. You were given no instructions about it? 

Mrs. MiMS. Never. 

Senator McClellan. And you gave no instructions about it? 

Mrs. Mims. No, sir. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 513 

Senator IMcClellan. That is all, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dirksen. 

Senator Dirksen. I have no qncstions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Jackson. 

Senator Jackson. Mrs. Minis, from the time tliat this package was 
brou^lit in by Private Schine, accompanied by INIr. Anastos last week, 
and np until Tuesday of this week, you never heard any discussion 
about this picture matter in the ofHce? 

JNIrs. Mois. No, sir. 

Senator Jackson. No discussion by anyone; you never overheard 
an}' discussion in the oflice? 

Mrs. MiMS. No, sir. 

Senator Jackson. That is all. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Potter. 

Senator Potter. I have no questions. 

Senator ]\Iundt. Senator Symington. 

Senator Symington. Mrs. ]\Iims, maybe I misunderstood, but I 
thought that Mr. Anastos said that you opened up the package; is 
that wrong? 

Mrs. MiMS. Mr. Anastos is in error if he said that. 

Senator Symington. You saw the package go in the room but you 
didn't see it come out; is that right? 

Mrs. INIiMS. I saw Mr. Schine go in the room with the package, 
under his arm, and I saw the package lying later on the desk, and I 
didn't see what was in it and I didn't know what was in it, and I don't 
know what became of it. 

Senator Sy^mington. You never saw it after that, inside the room? 

Mrs. MiMS. No, sir. 

Senator Symington. And Mr. Anastos is in error when he says you 
opened it ? 

Mrs. MiMS. He is in error, sir. 

Senator Symington. All right. 

Senator ]\Iunut. Senator Dworshak. 

Senator Dworshak. I have no questions. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch. 

Mr. Welch. I have no qi'iestions. 

Senator INIundt. I take it that includes Mr. St. Clair? 

Mr. Welch. It does. 

Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy ? 

Senator McCarthy. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jenkins. I have no questions. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair doesn't feel he should keep going around 
unless someone indicates there is a question. If no one has a question, 
Mrs. Minis is dismissed. 

Mr. Jenkins. And I think it proper. 

I desire to ask Mr. Schine one other question at this time. Is he 
available? 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Schine wdll return to the witness stand. 

Is Private Schine in the room ? 

Mr. Jenkins. If he is not here, then I would like to ask Mr. Anastos 
one other question. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Anastos will return. 



514 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

TESTIMONY OE C. GEOEGE ANASTOS— Resumed 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Anastos, it would appear that you and Private 
Schine went into the office of Mr. Cohn and Mr. Carr with this pack- 
age. 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And that Mrs. Mims was in the outer room. 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir, she was in the outer room, and I don't recall 
exactly where she was. 

Mr. Jenkins. Did you and Mr. Schine leave the room together? 

Mr. Anastos. jSTo, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Who left first, and I am talking about the private 
office of Mr. Cohn and JMr. Carr. 

Mr. Anastos. I can't recall whether I left him in that room, or 
whether he left first, and then I was in with Mrs. Mims; I can't 
recall exactly. 

Mr. Jenkins. Do you recall about how long you were in there ? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, about a few minutes. 

Mr. Jenkins. Well, did anyone come in while you were there, Ms. 
Anastos? 

Mr. Anastos. No, other than Mrs. Mims, 

]\Ir. Jenkins. Frankly, I am trying to find out now who next came 
into the j^ossession of the picture. 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And you and Mr. Schine are in Mr. Cohn's room 
with that picture? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Do you not know whether you left first, or whether 
Mr. Schine left first? 

Mr. Anastos. Frankly, I can't remember, and I do know that I 
left after a few minutes. And as I recall I went to my own office. 

Mr. Jenkins. You did not take the picture or package with you? 

Mr. Anastos. Absolutely not, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Then, if you left first, we then have the picture with 
Mr. Schine alone in Mr. Cohn's office, that is obvious. 
' Mr. Anastos. If he was. 

Mr. Jenkins. If he left first, then you are in Mr. Cohn's office alone 
with the picture ? 

Mr. Anastos. One or the other. 

Mr. Jenkins. Now, can you not enlighten us on which one left first 
or whether or not you both left together ? 

Mr. Anastos. Well, sir, to the best of my recollection, I think that 
I left first. 

Mr. Jenkins. That you left first? 

Mr. Anastos. But I don't remember exactly. He may have been 
tliere, but I know I went down to room IGO, 

Mr. Jenkins. Very well, you left the picture in that office ? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And you think you left first ? 

Mr. Anastos. I think so. That is the best of my 

Mr. Jenkins. Does anyone else have any questions? That is all 
that I have. 

Senator ]\Iundt. Does anybody having priority over Senator Sym- 
ington have any questions ? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 515 

Senator Potter. IMr. Chairman, just one question. 

Senator JMundt. Senator Potter ? 

Senator Poiter. Would it have been possible for either you or Mr. 
Schine to have left the package on a desk without its being in the pos- 
session of anyone? 

JNIr. Anastos. That is correct, sir. In fact, I think that is what 
took place. 

Senator Potter. On whose desk 

]Mr. Anastos. Of course, he may have taken it, but 1 don't know. 

Senator Potter. On whose desk ? 

Mr. Anastos. It was on the other side of Frank Carr's desk. 

Senator Potter. On the other side of Mr. Carr's desk? 

JNlr. Anastos. Yes, sir. 

Senator Potter. When you left, you left without the picture? 

]Mr. Anastos. That is correct. 

Senator Potter. Mr. Schine left without it ? 

Mr, Anastos. I guess so. 

Senator Potter. There was no one else in the room at that time 
other than ]Mrs. INIims, and she had left prior to the time that you and 
Mr. Schine left ; is that correct ? 

x»lr. Anastos. Of course, she went back and forth into that outer 
room, and I don't know whether she was positively in the room when 
I left or whether she was in the outer room — I don't remember. 

Senator Potter. The reason for my question is to try to determine 
the best I can what happened to that picture after, as I understand 
the testimony, you left the room without the picture. 

JVIr. Anastos. That is correct, sir. 

Senator Potter. That Mr. Schine did likewise. I believe that was 
.your testimony. There was no one else in the room other than Mrs. 
Minis, who had been in and out, and she stated that she hadn't taken 
the picture. 

Mr. Anastos. Sir 

Senator Potter. You testify no one else came into the room. 

Mr. Anastos. No, not while I was there. 

Senator Potter. Therefore, you must have left the picture there. 
Is that a correct assum])tion ? 

Mr. Anastos. That is correct. I did ; yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. I am sorry, the Chair's attention was diverted. Is 
there a point of order ? 

Senator JNIcCarthy. I wasn't raising a point of order, but just to 
save some time, Mr. Chairman, I think that we can easily agree and 
certify, stipulate, or call it what you may, that the picture as it left 
Dave Schine's wall got into the hands of Mr. Juliana. In the mean- 
time, neither Mr. Anastos nor anyone else cut it or did anything to it. 
In other words, the identical picture that came from the wall came to 
Juliana and in his hands. 

Senator Mundt. Will Mr. Juliana testify to the fact of when he 
received the picture ? 

Senator McCarthy. He is the only man who knows what happened 
to this ])icture. I think this information has gone to counsel. 

Mr. Jenkins, Mr. Chairman, I don't blame counsel for this, but I 
think you are wasting a fantastic amount of time until you get down 
to one young man who knows what happened to that picture. 



516 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator Mundt. The Chair appreciates the information the Senator 
has siipphed. However, in conformity with our rule, if there are 
other questions — Senator Symington has indicated he has some. If 
neither Senator McClellan nor Senator Dirksen has any — Senator 
McClellan? 

Senator McClfxlax. In the light of the statement just made, I 
want to ask the witness this question : 

Is it not a fact that you, yourself, personally delivered the picture 
to Mr. Juliana ? I ask you to refresh your memory now, after all this 
testifying, and is it not true that you delivered that picture to him ? 

Mr. Anastos. You mean up here, sir? 

Senator McClellan. Yes, sir; within 30 minutes after it was 
brouglit to that office down there ; isn't that true ? 

Mr. Anastos. Sir, I definitely remember that I left that picture 
and the papers on the desk of Frank Carr, and I went down to my 
room, 100. At a subsequent time I was instructed, I was asked to 
bring up to this room that picture and other papers, and I brought 
them up here, sir, and Mr. Juliana, as I rem.ember it, met me halfway 
up this aisle here, and I gave them to him. 

Senator ^SIcClellan. That is all, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Have either of the other Senators questions? 
Senator Symington? 

Senator SYMiNGTOiSr. Mr. Anastos, Mr. Schine testified at page 1119 
yesterday : 

And when I came back from New York, sir, Mr. Anastos met me at the 
airplane. 

Mr. Jeis'kins. You have testified to all of that now, Mr. Schine? 

Private Schine. Yes, sir. And, therefore, I do remember giving him the 
photograph because he came with me to the office. And, as a matter of fact, 
one of the staff came in and said, "Let me see the picture of you and Secretary 
Stevens," and I said "We had better send this right up because ]\Ir. Jenkins is 
anxious to have it, and so we had better not oy.eu it." And I remember Mr. 
Anastos taking the picture. 

Do you have any comment on that ? 

Mr. AxASTOS. He is referring to the subsequer.t time, after I had 
been told to bring it up. Then it is correct that I did come in and 
I took the photograph and the papers and brought them up. 

Senator Symington. Let me repeat this now. He said, Mr. Schine 
said; "AVhen I came back from New York, Mr. Anastos met me at 
the airplane. 

Mr. Jenkins. You have testified to all that now, Mr. Schine? 
Private Schine. Yes, sir. And, therefore, I do remember giving him the 
photograph because he came with me to the office. 

Mr. Anastos. Yes. Do you mean — I never brought any photograph 
or papers to Mr. Jenkins. I brought a photograph and some papers to 
this room. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dworshak? 

Senator Dworsiiak. No questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Jackson? 

Senator Jackson. No questions. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch ? 

Mr. Welch. This should be very short. I am puzzled, Mr. Anastos, 
at your answers to Senator Symington. Private Schine's testimony 
.was tho t he gave the photograph to someone and he remembered one 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 617 

of the staff came in and said, "Let me see the picture of 5'OU and Secre- 
tary Stevens." Did you say that to him ? 

]\[r. Anastos. No, sir. 

Mr. Welch. AVhat member of the staff couhl have said it? 

jNIr. Anastos. I do not know. 

jSIr. AVfxch. There was no other member there but you. 

Mr. Anastos. I don't — no. As I say 

Mr. AVelcii. AVait a moment. There was no other member of the 
staff? 

Mr. Anastos. When^ sir? 

Mr. Welch. AVhen Schine brou^i^ht the picture in. 

Mr. Anastos. If he is referring to that particular time, then I did 
not ask him that question. 

Mr. AVelch. All right. Then he testified, "And I said" — meaning 
Mr. Scliine — "we had better send this right up"' 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman? 

Senator Mundt. Has the Senator a point of order? 

Senator McCarthy. Yes, I have a point of order, Mr. Chairman. 
Yesterday, as the Chair will recall, I consented to have Mr. Stevens 
taken oft the stand so we could establish the facts in regard to this 
picture. I did that on the assumption that we were going to establish 
the facts. I think counsel has done a very competent and efficient job 
to cut this down, but, Mr. Chairman, if counsel for Mr. Stevens and 
Mr. Hensel and Mr. Adams are going to continue this stalling practice 
to keep Mr. Stevens from going back on the stand — whether I shall be 
successful or not I don't know, but I am going to ask the Chair 

Senator Mundt. The Chair will have to overrule the point of order. 

Senator McCarthy. Let me finish, Mr. Chairman. I am going 
to ask the Chair — I am not doing it now, but I am going to ask the 
Chair — if this stalling continues, to bring Mr. Stevens back to the 
stand. I only consented that he be removed on the theory that we 
would not go through this filibustering procedure by counsel for 
Mr. Stevens and Mr. Adams. I am not making the request now. 

Mr. AA^elch. JNIr. Chairman 

Senator Mundt. The Chair will have to confess to the fact that he 
has not yet been able to find out the truth about the photograph, and 
that was the purpose of the interruption. AVe are trying to find it out. 
It is taking a long time, but I hope we can finally determine. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman? 

Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy. 

Senator McCarthy. ]\Ir. Chairman, all the facts about the photo- 
graph have been given'to Mr. Jenkins. I think he is trying to get down 
TO the important witnesses. I agree that it is necessary to put these 
preliminary witnesses on. Mr. AA^elch and- Mr. St. Clair, in my 
opinion, now are not looking for facts. They are trying to stall so 
Mr. Stevens will not return to the stand this week. I am not making 

any point now, Mr. Chairman, I am merely serving notice 

Senator Mundt. Very well. No point of order has been made. 
Senator McCarthy. I am merely serving notice tlijit if this con- 
tinues, I am going to raise an objection to it. 
Senator Mundt. Mr. AA^'elch ? 

Mr. AA^elch. Mr. Chairman, I also wish to serve a notice. I have 
made or thought up an invention that will greatly shorten this hearing. 
It is my observation of lawsuits that when the principal witnesses 



518 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

testify, the subprincipals go on and off A^ery fast. I wish to give notice 
now that at the conclusion of Mr. Stevens' testimony I shall waive the 
right to proceed with Army witnesses and ask Mr. Jenkins to call 
Senator McCarthy to the stand. That I wish to do as soon as Mr. 
Stevens concludes his testimony, which I suppose would be within 
an hour or so of the time he retakes the stand. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair will have to remind Mr. Welch, as he 
reminded Senator McCarthy yesterday, that the conduct of the hear- 
ings is in the hands of the committee and its counsel. We will have 
to determine the order in which the witnesses are called. 

Mr. Welch. I realize I can only beg Mr. Jenkins to do what I sug- 
gest. I do beg him to do it. 

Senator Mundt. You may proceed. 

Mr. Welch. Now, to conclude this, Mr. Anastos, Mr. Schine said in 
his testimony at page 1119 : 

We bad better seud this right up because Mr. Jeukiiis is anxious to have it, 
and so we had better not open it. 

If that got said in that room, were you present when it was said ? 

Mr. Anastos. I don't recall him saying that; he may have said that. 

Mr. Welch. If those words were spoken, were they spoken in your 
presence ? 

Mr. Anastos. They may have been. 

Mr. Welch. And then his last sentence was, "And I remember Mr. 
Anastos taking the picture." Do you remember that you took the 
picture ? 

Mr. Anastos. Oh, no, I never handled it. 

Mr. Welch. That is all. 

Mr. Anastos. Except, let me add this, as I said before, I took the 
picture subsecjuently, and brought it up here, and gave it to Mr. 
Juliana. 

Senator Mundt. Have you concluded, Mr. Welch? 

Mr. Welch. Yes. 

Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy, do you have any questions? 

Senator McCarthy. I am sorry sir? 

Senator Mundt. Any further questions? 

Senator McCarthy. No further questions. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Jenkins? 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Anastos, I want to clear up one matter here, if 
possible. And tell me if I am correct, the committee is trying to 
ascertain the facts, and you understand that? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. It develops that you met Private Schine at the 



airplane- 
Mr. Anastos. Yes sir. 
Mr. Jenkins. At the airport- 



Mr. Anastos. Yes sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. That you and he together, with no one else present^ 
then went to room 101 with a package which you understood contained 
a photograph 

Mr. Anastos. Sir, my aunt was with me. 

Mr. Jenkins. Who was with you? 

Mr. Anastos. My aunt. 

Senator Mundt. That is Boston for what we call "ant" in 
South Dakota. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 519 

Mr. Jenkins. We call it "ant" in Tennessee. 

Mr. Anastos. And, in fact, she was driving her car. 

Mr. Jenkins. I am not interested in that. Did she go to room 101? 

Mr. Anastos. Oh, no, she left us off at the Senate Office Building, 
and Private Schine and I went together to room 101. 

Mr. Jenkins. With this photograph, as you understood it? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes sir. 

Mr. Jenkinsj And into a private room ? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir, in Frank Carr's room. 

Mr. Jenkins. Now, we are trying to find out, and it is obvious, and 
I am sure you understand it, Mr. Anastos, who next came into the 
possession of that photograph? 

Mr. Anastos. Sir, if I knew, I would tell you ; I don't know. 

INIr. Jenkins. What time of day or night was it when you and 
Mr. Schine went to room 101 ? 

Mv. Anastos. AVe came immediately from the airport. 

Mr. Jenkins. But I don't know what time it was. 

]Mr. Anastos. We came about 3 o'clock. 

^Ir. Jenkins. Three in the afternoon? 

Mr. Anastos. In the middle afternoon. 

Mr. Jenkins. During working hours? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Which incidentally extends to midnight here in 
Washington, as I have found. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman? 

Senator Mundt. A point of order ? 

Senator McCarthy. I have a suggestion that we have the witness 
here who handled the photograph, and who handled the removal of 
the colonel from the photograph and had it blown up. And I would 
suggest that you put him on the stand, if we want the facts. 

And we all know that all this young man did was to pick up Schine 
at the airport and bring him back. And we have a man here who 
had 

May I finish ? 

Senator Mundt. I will overrule the point of order, as I just over- 
ruled the point of order of Mr. Welch. 

The committee counsel will decide the order of witnesses. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, I am trying to cut this down. 
And I will tell you we have a witness who will testify that he had the 
picture, with the three people on it, and the one substantially the 
same as Mr. Welch presented, and that he took that picture. And 
he will explain how, when, where, and why the third man was cut 
off. I would suggest that if he were put on the stand we may save 
an awful lot of time. 

Senator ISIundt. We will call him very shortly. 

Senator Jackson. A point of order. And I may suggest if avb had 
known that yesterday we could move much faster. 

Senator McCarthy. This information was all given to Mr. Mundt's 
staff the minute the question of the picture was taken up. 

Senator Symington. I want to raise a point of order, if I may. 

Senator Mundt. You may. 



520 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator Symington. I have been questioning the ■witnesses with 
ignorance, with respect to any information being given to anybody — 
and it might well expedite the hearings. 

I agree, Senator McCarthy, if there is some way that all members 
of the committee will know what information has been given, if there 
is going to be criticism of us examining the witnesses, as I imder- 
stand it, our purpose is on this committee to examine the witnesses 
and try to get the truth. 

Senator Mundt. You may proceed, Mr. Jenkins. 

Mr. Jenkins, Mr. Anastos, can you give us an answer, yes or no, 
as to whether or not you left room 101, that is Mr. Cohn and Mr. 
Carr's office, first, or did Mr. Schine leave there first? 

, Mr. Anastos. Sir, I honestly cannot remember which one of us left 
first. 

Mr. Jenkins. Now, Mr. Anastos, here is testimony given by Private 
Schine, and I am not indicating that it disturbs me. I want what 
explanation you can give of it. 

Before asking you that question, as I understand it you have told 
us that subsequent thereto, you brought a photograph from the staff 
office to Mr. Juliana here in this room, and obviously to deliver to me. 

Mr. Anastos. I presume it was to deliver to you. 

Mr. Jenkins. When was that ? 

Mr. Anastos. Well, sir, I was trying 

Mr. Jenkins. To make it easier for you, Avhen was it with reference 
to the time that you and Mr. Schine went to room 101, at 3 p. m., 
with that original package ? 

Mr. Anastos. It was after that. 

Mr. Jenkins. I know it was subsequent thereto, but a day or 2 days, 
or 3 days ? 

Mr. Anastos. Sir, at first, I thought I couldn't remember when 
your staff was interviewing me, and I thought it was a day or two 
later, and I couldn't quite remember, but from what was said it appears 
that it must have been the same day. 

Mr. Jenkins. You think it was the same day ? 

Mr. Anastos. Apparently, 

Mr. Jenkins. During the hearing, that is, it would have been subse- 
quent to 3 o'clock in the afternoon ? 

Mr. Anastos. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And you think it was that same afternoon that you 
brought this picture up here and delivered it to Mr. Juliana? 

Mr. Anastos. First I thought it was a day or two later, and I can't 
remember, and I didn't pay any attention. 

Mr. Jenkins. What do you think now ? 

Mr. Anastos. From what has been said, apparently it was the 
same day. 

Mr. Jenkins. The same day ? 

Mr. Anastos. Apparently. 

Mr. Jenkins. So that if the original photograph that you and Mr. 
Schine took to room 101 at 3 o'clock in the afternoon was the^ photo- 
graph of 3 persons, and if that photograph was brought to this room 
that same day by you and delivered to Mr. Juliana, it was either a 
photograph of 3 persons or that same day some time between 3 o'clock 
and tiie time this committee adljourned its hearings, the photograph 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION" 521 

of 1 individual had been cut from it, if such a fact did occur. Now, is 
that correct? 

]Mr. AxASTOS. Yes, sir. 

]\Ir. Jenkixs. And in the meantime, the picture had been blown 
np, or enharged ; is that correct ? 

Mr. AxASTOs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkixs. All in the course of the time intervening between 3 
o'clock in the afternoon and the time of adjournment of this 
committee ? 

Mr. AxASTOS. Yes, sir, if it was the same day. And I still can't 
remember the exact time. Apparently it was the same day ; I can't 
remember exactly. 

JNlr. Jexkixs. Is that your best impression, ]\Ir. Anastos? 

Mr. AxASTOS. Yes ; after talking or during the interview of various 
members of the staff, bj'' your staff, that is my conclusion. 

Mr. Jexkins. Do you know how long it takes to cut from a photo- 
graph the picture of an individual and have it blown up'? And I am 
askhig for information, and I don't know anything about blowing up 
a picture. 

JNIr. AxASTos. I don't either, sir, and I have never had, and I don't 
recall having had anything blown up. 

Mr. Jexkixs. Let me ask you this question, Mr. Anastos. I am 
reading from Private Schine's testimony, page 1119. 

Private Schixe. Yes, sir. And, therefore, I do remember giving him the photo- 
graph because he came witli me to the otiice. 

He was referring to you, was he not ? 

Mr. AxASTOs. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jexkixs. As a matter of fact, one of the staff came in and said, 
"Let me see the picture of you and Secretary Stevens." That, for 
your information, is the testimony of Mr. Schine. Do you recall a 
member of the staff coming in and saying, in effect, "Let me see the 
picture of you and i\Ir. Stevens" ? 

Mr. AxASTOs. That may 

Mr. Jexkixs. The question is. Do you recall it? 

Mr. AxASTos. Not specifically. It may have been. 

Mr. Jexkixs. Not specifically, but do you have some recollection 
of it? 

Mr. Anastos. It may have been Mrs. Minis, I do not remember. 

Mr. Jexkixs. I did not get your answer. 

Mr. AxASTOs. I do not remember, sir. 

Mr. Jexkixs. You don't remember one way or the other? 

Mr. AxASTOs. No. 

Mr. Jexkixs. Reading further from Mr. 

Mr. xVxASTOS. It may have been Mrs. Minis ; I don't know. 

Mr. Jexkixs. Schine's testimony: 

and I said — 

that is, David Schine said — 

we had better send this right up because Mr. Jenkins is anxious to have it, and 
so we had better not open it. And I remember Mr. Anastos taliing the picture. 

Mr. AxASTOS. I never took it as such. I never took it. Immedi- 
ately after he had put it on the desk there, I did not take it then. Sub- 
sequently, when I was told to bring it up here, then I took it. 



522 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr. Jenkins. Well, subsequent. Do you mean minutes, hours, or 
a day or so ? 

Mr. Anastos. I don't know. At first I thought it was a couple of 
days later or a day later. 

Mr. Jenkins. What do you think now ? 

Mr. Anastos. From what — from your staff's interview, apparently 
it was the same day. It must have been a. few hours later, an hour 
later. I do not remember. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Anastos, if Mr. Schine is correct — I am not sure 
this is a proper question ; if it is not, the Senator will stop me, I am 
sure. [Laughter.] 

Senator McCarthy. I want to say I will not take the time to try 
to stop you. 

Mr. Jenkins. If Schine is correct, then that picture was sent almost 
immediately to me by you as the emissary after it had been taken into 
the private office of Mr. Cohn and Mr. Carr. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman ? 

Mr. Anastos. If 

Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy. 

Senator McCarthy. A point of order here. Some of the Senators 
have been asking me in effect why we have not given all the informa- 
tion about this picture to counsel. I would like, as a courtesy, to have 
counsel put in the record at this time the fact that the minute the 
picture in question came up, the one Mr. Welch submitted, the one 
that come off Mr. Schine's wall, and the one in evidence, the minute 
that came up we have given your staff all the information and they 
have had it ever since. 

The reason I ask for that is because I gather from the questions 
asked me by Senators, they feel that this information has not been 
freely given. I think in fairness to me and my staff that should be 
made clear. 

Mr. Jenkins. I desire to make it clear that no member of Senator 
McCarthy's committee has done anything except to cooperate fully 
and that they have assured me that they will furnish the witnesses to 
develop all the facts with respect to this photograph — the staff. I 
mean Senator McCarthy's staff. 

Frankly, Mr. Chairman, I do not think that I should proceed further 
trying to develop the fact with respect to this until Mr. Schine is asked 
one or two additional questions. I can put on Mr. Juliana. 

Senator Mundt. I think perhaps Mr. Schine has returned to the 
room. Has he ? 

Mr. Jenkins. I would like to have Mr. Schine for 1 or 2 questions 
before Mr, Juliana is put on. 

Senator McCarthy. If he has not returned, Mr. Chairman, I am 
sure that I will be able to contact him. I told him I wanted to see 
him this noon. Where he is now, I frankly don't know. 

Mr. Jenkins. That is all I care to ask Mr. Anastos, and if no one else 
cares to, I want to call Mr. Juliana. 

Senator McCarthy. I am informed Mr. Schine is on the way from 
Fort Myer now. 

Senator Mundt. Is there any objection to calling Mr, Juliana and 
dismissing this witness ? 

Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, I want to remind you that the 
rules of procedure should be followed. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 523 

Senator Mi'xdt. JMr. Anastos, you may step clown. ^Mr. Juliana 
will come to the stand. 

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God? 

I\Ir. Juliana. I do. 

Senator Mundt. You may be seated. 

]\Ir, Jenkins will proceed. 

TESTIMONY or JAMES N. JULIANA 

jSIr. Jenkixs. Please state your full name. 

Mr. Juliana. James N. Juliana. 

]\Ir. Jenkins. What official position do you occupy, Mr. Juliana ? 

Mr. Juliana. I am an investigator wnth the Senate Permanent Sub- 
committee on Investigations of Government Operations. _ 

]\Ir. Jenkins. Mr. Juliana, y^u know at what point this inquiry is 
directed, do you not? 

Mr. Jlxiana. Yes, sir. 

]Mr. Jenkins. In order to save time and to expedite this matter, if 
such a thing is possible, I want you, Mr. Juliana, now to tell this com- 
mittee in a chronological way all you know about the photograph that 
was delivered to room 101 by Private Schine and Mr. Anastos^ being 
a photograph, I think it is conceded, of Secretary Stevens, Mr. Schine, 
and Colonel Bradley. Please do it chronologically. 

;Mr. Juliana. Mr. Jenkins, the first time I ever heard of a photo- 
graph 

Mr. Jenkins. And for the purposes of identification, I hand you 
the photograph to which reference has been made. 

ISIr. Juliana. The first time I ever heard reference to a photograph 
of Secretary Stevens and Private Schine was one evening last week in 
the office of Mr. Carr when you were discussing wdth Mr. Cohn the 
]\IcCarthy-Cohn-Carr side of this controversy. I was in and out 
of the room at the time, and the question of a photograph came up. I 
recall that you asked Mr. Cohn if the photograph was available or 
could be made available, and I believe he answered that it could. 

Sometime during that meeting, I was given to believe that the photo- 
graph would be brought down from New York by someone — I don't 
know who 

j\Ir. Jenkins. An interruption will not disturb you, wall it, Mr. 
Juliana? 

Mr. Juliana. No, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Without telling what was said, I will ask you whether 
or not at the time of my conference with ]\Ir. Cohn in the preparation 
of the staff's side of this controversy, I was told — and please do not 
tell me what I was told — I was told who requested the taking of that 
photograph ? 

Mr. Juliana. I believe you were, yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Was it then tliat I asked whether or not the photo- 
graph was in existence and could be produced ? 

]\Ir. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Now you may proceed. 

Mr. Juliana. I believe at that time JNIr. Cohn said to me that the 
picture would be brought to Washington and that when it arrived, I 
should take care of it^ 



524 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

The next time I Iicard about the picture was tlie afternoon of the 
first day's hearings, which I believe was last Thursday, Avhen a pack- 
age was delivered to me in this Caucus Room by Mr. Anastos. I did 
not know what was in the package except that there was a picture. 
The package, from feeling it you could tell that it v^as a frame, and a 
rather large frame, and it was heavily wrapped in brown paper. I 
did not open that package until the end of the hearings, wlien I went 
down to 101, physically carried the picture to 101, and there I opened 
it. For the first time I saw this picture [indicating]. 

Mr. Jenkins. Being a picture of the Secretary of the Army, Mr. 
Schine, and Colonel Bradley ? 

Mr. Juliana. I don't know Avho the colonel is, but there is a colonel 
in there who has been named as Colonel Bradley. 

Mr. Jenkins. Very well. 

Mr. Juliana. I unwrapped the picture, and I immediately called 
for Mr. Don Surine, an assistant counsel on the subcommittee. Don 
Surine and I discussed the enlarging of the picture. I must go back 
just a second. 

When the picture arrived in the Caucus Room, I whispered to Mr. 
Cohn that the picture was here, and he said, "All right, have enlarge- 
ments made." 

Now I will go back to the discussion with Mr. Surine. We decided 
that to handle it most expeditiously and as cheaply as possible, w^e 
would have photstats made rather than photographs. It was my 
understanding that a picture of Schine and Secretary Stevens was 
to be delivered to you on Friday morning. I asked Don Surine if he 
would handle the photostating of the picture. 

I said to Don Surine that he should have photostats made of the 
full picture and photostats made of Secretary Stevens and Mr. Schine. 
I said that because my instructions from you and/or Mr. Cohn were 
to that effect, that you wanted a picture of Secretary Stevens and 
Private Scliine. 

Don Surine 

Mr. Jenkins. May I interrupt you now? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Did I say anything about cutting out of a picture 
any individual, Mr. Juliana? 

Mr. Juliana. No, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Very well. You may go ahead. 

Mr. Juliana. Mr. Cohn did not say that, either. 

Mr. Jenkins. I understand. 

Mr. Juliana. I gave the picture to Don Surine intact. It was still 
mounted, still in the frame. 

The following morning, I contacted Don Surine to find out what 
the status of the enlarged photostats of the picture was. And Don 
said that he would check it and would see that I got it right away. 

Sometime after 10 o'clock in the morning — because I know I was 
rushing to get it to you before the hearing — I received several en- 
larged photostats of this picture, plus 

Mr. Jenkins. Being a picture of the three persons you are now 
holding in your hand ? 

Mr. Juliana. I hadn't finished. I received, I believe, 2 enlarged 
photostats of this [indicating], and 2 photostats like this 
[indicating]. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 625 

Mr. Jenkins. To identify what 3'ou mean by "this," INIr. Jnliana- 



i\ir. Juliana. Of the picture of Secretary Stevens and Mr. Schine. 

JNIr. Jenkins. We understand. 

Mr. Jenkins. Could you identify what you mean by this? 

Mr. Juliana. Upon receiving, I believe there were 2 photostats of 
each picture, and 1 large negative of this picture only. 

Mr. Jenkins. When you say this picture only, Mr. Juliana, we 
request you to identify it. 

Mr. Juliana. The picture of Secretary Stevens, Mr. Schine, and a 
colonel. 

Mr. Jenkins. Very well. 

Mr. Juliana. Upon receiving those, I immediately proceeded to 
mount the picture of Secretary Stevens and Private Schine on a piece 
of white cardboard. The other pictures I put in a filing cabinet where 
they have been more or less under my custody until I gave them to 
Mr. Collier yesterday morning. The reason that I furnished this 
picture of Secretary Stevens and ]\Ir. Schine is because I was led to 
believe that that was what you wanted in the hearing. I did not 
know why you wanted this picture in the hearing. 

I mounted it, and I put the caption at the top, McGuire Air Force 
Base, Fort Dix, November 17, 1953, and I physically wrapped it in a 
newspaper, and brought it to your office approximately 10 : 28 of 
Friday morning. 

You told me at that time that you did not think that we would get 
to the cross-examination of Secretary Stevens and therefore you would 
not need the picture. You told me to keep it in my custody, that you 
would hold me responsible for the picture. I therefore returned to 
room 101 and I placed the picture in a large filing cabinet with a 
combination lock on it. It was not locked, and I don't know the 
combination. 

I did not touch the picture again until the morning that you re- 
quested this to be brought to the hearing room, which I believe was 
Monday morning, if I am not mistaken. 

At that time I took the picture out of the filing cabinet, and I gave 
it to Mrs. Minis, and I instructed her to bring it to your office immedi- 
ately, and it was still wrapped and I don't know if she saw what was 
in it or not, what was in the wrapping. 

You received the photograph, enlarged photograph of Secretary 
Stevens, and Mr. Schine. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Juliana, I think that you have made it very clear 
and we may be getting somewhere now with respect to this photograph. 

Mr. Juliana. I hope so. 

Mr. Jenkins. I join you in that wish. 

Mr. Juliana, this question ; at whose direction was Colonel Bradley 
cut from the picture ? 

Mr. Juliana. To my knowledge, Colonel Bradley was never cut 
from the picture. 

Mr. Jenkins. All right, have it any way. Now, you know what 
we mean, do you not, Mr. Juliana ? 

Mr. Juliana. I Icnow what you mean, he was left off the picture. 

Mr. Jenkins. At whose direction? At whose direction was Colonel 
Bradley left off the picture that was introduced here by me, earlier 
this week ? 



526 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr. Juliana. As I previously testified, it was my understanding 
after talking with you and Mr. Cohn about this picture, that you 
wanted a picture of Secretary Stevens and Private Schine. I gave 
those instructions to Mr. Surine. I don't know what he did. 

Mr. Jenkins. Then you gave the directions to Mr. Don Surine — 
what your expression — to leave off 

Mr. Juliana. No, sir; no sir. My instructions were to have the 
photostats blown up, photostats of the picture of the 3 individuals 
made, and also to have photostats of the 2 individuals made, namely 
Secretary Stevens and Private Schine. 

Mr. Jenkins. Well, Mr. Juliana, did that not mean to your mind, 
and did you not intend to convey then to Mr. Surine your intention 
or your wish or your desire that Colonel Bradley be left off of the 
picture ? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. I never knew Colonel Bradley was on this 
picture until I opened it down in room 101. 

Mr. Jenkins. And you were present when I was told that there 
was in existence a picture of the Secretary of the Army, and David 
Schine, you say? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And you were present when I was told at whose in- 
stance the picture was made, and please don't tell me what was said.; 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. But you were present? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And I then asked for that picture. 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Does the Chair understand that there are avail- 
able enlarged photostats, not only of the one that you have before you 
of Secref^ary Stevens and Mr. Schine, Private Schine, but also photo- 
stats which were made at the same time showing everybody on the 
picture ? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Could we have those, Mr. Counsel ? 

Mr. Jenkins. They are here available. 

Senator Mundt. That is the same one, and there appear to be 3, 
1 rather faint and 2 about as well developed as the other of the 3 
people. 

Whose specific decision was it, Mr. Juliana, to bring to the com- 
mittee room in the newspaper wrapping the specific picture which 
was first introduced in evidence, to wit, the enlarged photostat of 
the Secretary and Private Schine? 

Mr. Juliana. That was my decision. 

Senator Mundt. Your decision? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Do I understand you made that decision under the 
n])prehension that that was the picture that was desired? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator Mundt. What had you done with the other three 
]:)hotostats ? 

Mr. JuLiANA; The other photostats were placed in a filing cabinet in 
Mr. Carr's office. 

Senator Mundt. I tliink that is all. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 527 

Senator McClell an? 

Senator McClellan. Mr. Juliana, when you carried the 1 picture 
of Secretary Stevens and Mr. Schine to Mr. Jenkins' office, at the 
time you thought he would want them that morning, did you also 
take to him, at that time, the enlarged picture of the group of 3? 

Mr. Juliana. I did not. 

Senator McClellan. Did you tell him you had such a picture? 

Mr. Juliana. I did not. 

Senator McClellan. Did he ever know, until after it was devel- 
oped here in the hearings, that this was taken from a group picture, 
the picture that you delivered to him ? 

Mr. Juliana. From my knowledge, he did not know. 

Senator McClellan. You did not tell him ? 

Mr. Juliana. No, sir. 

Senator McClellan. You didn't consider that information im- 
jDortant ? 

Mr. Juliana. No, sir. 

Senator IMcClellan. Why did you have the enlarged pictures 
made of the group of three, if you didn't consider it important ? 

Mr. Juliana, because the photograph, of the 3 people, was the 
photograph, as presented. 

Senator McClellan. That is correct. But if it was not important 
to have the photograph of 3, if it is only important to have the photo- 
graph of the Secretary and Mr. Schine, if it is only important to have 
that, why have an enlarged photograph of all 3, can you tell us ? 

Mr. Juliana. Well, Senator, from what I received back, and this 
can only be my explanation, and I don't know, but when I received 
the rolls back, the negative was of the three individuals. 

Senator McClellan. But I thought that you gave instructions to 
Mr. Schine to have pictures developed of the group, and also pictures 
developed or blown up, if that is the proper word, of just Mr. Schine 
and the Secretary — and if I used the word "Schine" a moment ago 
when I should have used "Surine," you will understand — and you 
gave the instructions to Mr. Surine instead of Mr. Schine. 

Now will you tell us why ? 

]\Ir. Juliana. I did give those instructions. 

Senator McClellan. I understand you did. But if the picture 
of the three, the group picture was not important, why instruct him 
to have it blown up, do you know ? 

]\Ir. Juliana. I have no reason why I instructed him. 

Senator McClellan. That is all. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dirksen ? 

Senator Jackson ? 

Senator Jackson. Mr. Juliana, I understand the reason why these 
photostats were made, blowups, was in order to carry out what you 
understood to be the instructions of counsel ? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson. And what were those instructions? 

Mr. Juliana. My instructions were that I was to enlarge and give 
to Mr. Jenkins a photograph of Mr. Stevens and Private Schine. 

Senator Jackson. Did anyone else instruct you to do that? 

Mr. Juliana. No, sir. 

Senator Jackson. Did you discuss that feature of just the two to- 
gether with anyone else ? 



528 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr. Juliana. I don't believe I did, no, sir. 

Senator Jackson. Can yon say now, under oath, that you did not? 

Mr. Juliana. I don't think I did, no, sir. 

Senator Jackson. You don't think you did, but you couldn't say 
for sure ? 

Mr. Juliana. No, I couldn't say for sure. 

Senator Jackson. Did you talk with anyone on the staff about just 
having a picture of two? 

Mr. Juliana. I don't recall talking to anyone on the staff about 
the picture, except advising Mr. Cohn that the picture had arrived, 
in this caucus room, and then discussing with Mr. Surine the photo- 
stating of the picture. 

Senator Jackson. Well, your understanding was that you were 
to merely carry out the instruction of the counsel of the committee, 
Mr. Jenkins? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson. And nothing else? 

Mr. Juliana. Well, it was Mr. Jenkins and/or Mr. Cohn who gave 
me those instructions. 

Senator Jackson. Or both? 

Mr. Juliana. It could have been both at the same time in that meet- 
ing. 

Senator Jackson. They were both present ? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson. But you cannot explain to this committee now 
why you made photostats of, first, the original picture with the three 
together and also one with only two in the picture, Private Scliine 
and Secretary Stevens? 

Mr. Juliana. No, I cannot explain that. 

Senator Jackson. But did you give those instructions? 

Mr, Juliana. I gave those instructions to Don Surine. 

Senator Mundt. The photographer will kindly remain seated. 
We have had another complaint from the TV people. Thank you. 

Senator Jackson. I join with the TV people on that. I do not want 
to get cut out of this. 

As I understand it, you just cannot recall why a photostat was 
made of the original picture that was brought to the committee office 
by Private Schine and Mr. Anastos. 

Mr. Juliana. No, I do not, no. 

Senator Jackson. Did you give counsel Jenkins a copy of the group 
photostat? 

Mr. Juliana. No, I did not. 

Senator Jackson. You were present on Monday when counsel for 
the committee interrogated Mr. Stevens at length ? 

Mr. Juliana. I was here most of the time, yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson. You were here when the picture was offered 
in evidence? 

Mr. Juliana. I may have been. I would not swear that I was. 

Senator Jackson. Are you a lawyer? 

Mr. Juliana. No, sir. 

Senator Jackson. You are not a graduate of a law school ? 

Mr. Juliana. No, sir. 

Senator Jackson. Accountant? 

Mr. Juliana. No, sir. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 529 

Senator Jackson. Wore you in the FBI ? 

]\Ir. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson. Are you a college graduate? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson. In what field, liberal arts or 

]Mr. Juliana. Engineering. 

Senator Jackson. You recall — and I want to refresh your memory 
if I may — that on page 433 of the hearings on INIonday, starting at 
the bottom of the page, and I will read this testimony : 

IMr. Jfnkins. Mr. Steveus, did you ever have your photograph taken with 
G. David Schiiie? 

Secretary Stevkns. Well, there were a lot of photographers around down there 
at t4iat hearing, and it could he. 

Mr. Jenkins. But did you ever at your suggestion at a meeting anywhere, any 
time, say that "I want my picture taken with David" and have it done? 

Secretary Stevens. I am sure that I never made a statement just like you 
made it there. I mean, if there was a picture heing taken and there were 
people around, I might be very apt to say, "Well, let us all step in here and 
iiave a picture," hut I do not think that I ever made any demand to have my 
picture taken with David Schine. 

Mr. Jenkins. I did not say "demand," but was your picture after David 
Schine was drafted ever taken with you alone at your suggestion, anywhere? 

Secretary Stevens. After he was drafted? 

Mr Jenkins. Yes. 

Let me show you a picture, Mr. Stevens, for the purpose of refreshing yeur 
recoMection. I ask you whether or not that is a photograph of you, the Secue- 
tary of the Army, and David Schine, a private in the Army. 

Secretary Stevens. I unfortunately can recognize myself, hut I could not 
guarantee the soldier. 

Mr Jenkins. My question is, Is that a photograph of you, the Secretary of 
the Army, and G. David Schine, a private in the Army? 

Secretary Stevens. That is me; that is certainly me, and I assume 

TJie purpose of making this statement is for the purpose of asking 
you, in the light of that testimony, you knew it was obviously quite 
material to the line of questioning of the Secretary of the Army, 
whether or not he had a picture taken alone with G. David Schine. 

Mr. Juliana. The word "alone" meant nothing to me at the time 
of the question. 

Senator Jackson. Don't you know from what — you read the papers 
that night? 

Mr. Juliana. I have not read the papers in 2 weeks. 

Senator Jackson. You haven't read the papers in 2 weeks? 

]Mr. Juliana. No, sir. 

Senator Jackson. Any papers? 

Mr. Juliana. I have looked tlirougli a paper, but I haven't read the 
proceedings of this committee since they started. 

Senator Jackson. You haven't looked at any of the testimony of 
the proceedings? 

Mr, Juliana. Not that testimony, and very little of any other 
testimony. 

Senator Jackson. But you knew that at the time M-r. Jenkins was 
asking tliese questions, that the material thing about this photograph 
was the fact that Mr. Jenkins was laboring under the impression that 
there had been a picture taken with the Secretary of the Army and 
him alone ? 

Mr. Juliana. I was not under the impression that Mr. Jenkins was 
laboring on the word "alone." 



530 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator Jackson. You knew that he had in his possession this pic- 
ture that had been changed ? 

Mr. Juliana. I don't think the picture was changed. 

Senator Jackson. You don't think the picture was changed? 

Mr. Juliana. No, sir. 

Senator Jackson. What is your definition of "change"? 

Mr. Juliana. If you will take Mr. Stevens and Mr. Schine in the 
large, blown-up portion, I think you will find they are the same as 
these two individuals here. 

Senator Jackson. There is nothing else different in the picture? 

Mr. Juliana. Sure. This individual here has been left off [indicat- 
ing]. 

Senator Jackson. That is not a cliange? 

Mr. Juliana. I don't think there is any change in the two individ- 
uals, no. 

Senator Jackson. I don't think there has been any testimony by 
anyone in this proceeding that there Avas a change made of the photo- 
graphic appearance of the Secretary of the Army and Mr. Schine, has 
there been? 

Mr. Juliana. I couldn't answer that, sir. 

Senator Jackson. Do you know if there has been a change; the two 
j)ictures are there in front of you. 

Mr. Juliana. I am no photographer, but I don't think there has 
been a change. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Do you have a point of order ? 

Senator McCarthy. Yes, I certainly have. Senator Jackson said 
that there had been a change, and he turns around and accuses the 
witness of having said there w\as a change. The witness therefore said 
there was a change and it was Senator Jackson. 

If there w^as a change, Scoop, tell us where the change was. 

Senator Jackson. I am asking the witness and he had custody of 
the original picture when there were three in it. 

Senator McCarthy. Just a minute. 

Senator Jackson. Make a point of order. It is my time. 

Senator McCarthy. My point of order, Mr. Cliairman 

Senator Jackson. I don't want this out of my time. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, my point of order is this : That 
Mr. Jackson talked about a picture that had been changed, and after 
he had made the statement he starts questioning the witness about 
his own statement. 

Senator Jackson. Mr. Juliana 

Senator Mundt. It is dropped and I am sure Senator Jackson wants 
the witness to be sure he understands the questions. 

Senator Jackson. Mr. Juliana, the picture that you now have in 
your hands is the picture that you turned over to Mr. Surine ? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson. That is the picture from the office of G. David 
Schine? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson. From which the photostats were later made ? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson. The picture that was introduced in evidence 
which is on your desk, and underneath the picture, you had in your 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 531 

liaiid, is tlie picture the same as the one that was taken from G. David 
Schine's office ? 

Mr. Juliana. No, sir. 

Senator Jackson. That is alh 

Senator Mundt. Senator Potter. 

Senator Potter, Mr. Juliana, after you received the four large 
blow-up pictures, did I understand you to state that you discussed 
them or you had conversation with Mr. Cohn ? 

Mv. Juliana. No, Senator I did not say that. 

Senator Potter. In other words, you didn't discuss with Mr. Cohn, 
or i\Ir. Carr, or Senator McCarthy which blow-up would be submitted 
to the committee ? 

Mr. Juliana. No, sir. 

Senator Potter. I have no other questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Symington. 

Senator Symington. Mr. Juliana, you mentioned the fact that you 
had been a member of the Federal Bureau of Investigation? 

]\lr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. In my opinion one of the greatest organiza- 
tions this country has ever or ever did have. 

Mv. Juliana. I agree with you, sir. 

Senator Symington. Mention was made of the fine record of Mr. 
Carr. 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. With that organization, and also this morning 
mention was made of Mr. Anastos' record with the Department of Jus- 
tice, and the fact he left that Department and came over to work with 
this committee under proper conditions, and honorable conditions. 
Could I ask you why you left the FBI ? 

Mr. Juliana. I left the FBI for personal reasons; I resigned and I 
wasn't fired. 

Senator Symington. Did you resign from the FBI ? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. You were not discharged ? 

]Mr. Juliana. No. 

Senator Symington. You left under honorable conditions? 

Mr. Juliana. Very honorable. 

Senator Syimington. I thought we owed that to you because we have 
asked it of the other witnesses as they came up. 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. I have no further questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dworshak. 

Senator Potter. Senator Dworshak had to leave. 

Senator Mundt. It is impossible to see who is at the right on account 
of the light, so I have to call for them whether I see them or not. 

Mr. Welch. 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, I am afraid I shall have a reputation 
countrywide as a clock watcher, but we are a way beyond the point of 
adjournment, and I naturally have questions of burning importance 
to me to ask this wi^^ness, and may we not ask to have lunch? 

Senator Mundt. Do you feel that you have more questions than you 
can dispose of in a 10-minute period ? 

Mr. AVelch. I think that that is likely, sir. 



532 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Welch says he has got 
questions of burning importance, and I don't think he should burn 
over the noon hour. I would like to finish with this witness and get 
Mr. Stevens back on. May I say that my questioning will be very, 
very brief, no more than a minute or a minute and a half. 

Senator Mundt. If Mr. Welch feels he cannot finish in 10 minutes, 
I think then that we should recess for lunch; and if we could finish, it 
would be a way of expediting the hearings. 

We will recess then until 2 : 30 this afternoon. 

(Whereupon, at 1:50 p. m., the hearing was recessed until 2:30 
p. m. of the same day.) 



INDEX 



Page 

Adams, John G 517 

Air Force (United States) 505 

Airport (Wasliiugtou, D. C.) 497, 500, 501, 518 

Anastos, C. George 511-513, 523, 524, 528, 531 

Testimony of 497-510, 514-522 

Army (United States) 493, 518, 529 

Attorney General (United States) 505, 506 

Blowup' (picture) 507, 519, 521, 526, 527 

Boston, Mass 502, 518 

Bradley, Colonel 512, 523-526 

Erowuell, Attorney General 506 

Carr, Francis P 497, 498, 511. 512, 513-510, 519, 520, 522, 523, 526, 531 

Caucus room 524, 528 

Cohn, Koy M 494, 501, 507-509, 511, 512-514, 520, 522-524, 528, 531 

Collier, Mr 505, 525 

Colony Restaurant (Washington, U. C.) 497,499,512 

Democratic attorneys geueial 506 

Department of the Army 493, 518, 529 

Department of Justice 505, 531 

Federal Bureau of Investigation (I<'BI) 529, 531 

Fort Dix, N. J 505, 525 

Fort Myer, Va 522 

Harvard University 502 

Hensel, H. Struve 517 

Horowitz, Mr 505 

Juliana, James N 499, 502, 505, 515, 516, 518, 520, 522 

Testimony of 523-531 

Lawtou, General 505 

McCarthy, Senator Joe 491, 492, 496, 505, 506, 508, 510, 513, 515, 517-520, 

513, 515, 517-520, 522, 523, 530, 531 

McGrauery, Attorney General 506 

McGrath, Attorney General 505, 506 

McGuire Air Force Base 505, 525 

McGuire photograph 493, 494, 497, 505 

Mims, Mrs. Frances Perry 498, 500-504, 509, 514, 515, 521, 525 

Testimony of 510-513 

New York City 495, 501, 516, 523 

Pierre's Restaurant (Washington, D. C.) 499 

Republican attorney general 506 

St. Clair. Jim 502, 503, 513, 517 

Schine, G. David 4i)S, 500, 503-507, 509-530 

Testimony of 492-497 

Secretary of the Armv 49.3, 504, 505, 507, 509, 510, 512, 516-518, 521, 523-530 

Stevens, Robert T 493, 504, 505, 507, 509, 510, 512, 516-518, 521, 523-530 

Surine, Don 521, 526-528, 530 

TV people 528 

United States Air Force 505 

United States Army 493, 518, 529 

United States Attorney General 505, 506 

United States Department of Ju.stice 505, 531 

University of Harvard 502 

Washington Airport 497, 500, 501, 518 

Washington, D. C 497, 499, 502, 512, 523 



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