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Full text of "Special Senate investigation on charges and countercharges involving: Secretary of the Army Robert T. Stevens, John G. Adams, H. Struve Hensel and Senator Joe McCarthy, Roy M. Cohn, and Francis P. Carr. Hearings before the Special Subcommittee on Investigations of the Committee on Government Operations, United States Senate, Eighty-third Congress, second session, pursuant to S. Res. 189 .."

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SPECIAL SENATE INVESTIGATION ON CHARGES 
AND COUNTERCHARGES INVOLVING: SECRE- 
TARY OF THE ARMY ROBERT T. STEVENS, JOHN 
G. ADAMS, H. STRUVE HENSEL AND SENATOR 

JOE McCarthy, roy m. cohn, and 

FRANCIS p. CARR 



HEARING 

BEFORE THE 

SPECIAL SUBCOMMITTEE ON 
INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON 

GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS 
UNITED STATES SENATE 

EIGHTY-THIED CONGEESS 

SECOND SESSION 
PURSUANT TO 

S. Res, 189 



PART 14 



APRIL 30, 1954 



Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Operations 




UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
466aOP WASHINGTON : 1954 



Boston Public Library 
Superintendent of Documents 

AUG 9 - 1954 



COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS 

JOSEPH R. McCarthy, Wisconsin, Chairman 

KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas 

MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Maine HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, Minnesota 

HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idalio HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington 

EVERETT Mckinley DIRKSEN, IlUnois JOHN F. Kennedy, Massachusetts 
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri 

CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan ALTON A. LENNON, North Carolina 

RiCHAHD J. O'Melia, General Counsel 
Walter L. Reynolds, Chief Clerk 



Special Subcommittee on Investigations 

KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota, Chairman 
EVERETT MCKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas 
CHARLES B. POTTER, Michigan HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington 

HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri 

Ray H. Jenkins, Chief Counsel 

THOMAS R. Pre WITT, Assistant Counsel 

ROBERT A. Collier, Assistant Counsel 

SoLis HORWiTz, Assistant Counsel 

Charles A. Maner, Secretary 

U 



CONTENTS 



Page 
Index I 

Testimony of — 

Juliana, James N 534 

Manchester, S. Sgt. Herbert Richard, United States Air Force 551 

Stevens, Hon. Robert T., Secretary, Department of the Army 556 

Intro- 

■ir'VTTT-RTTQ ^^^^'^ Appears 

iii-iV£iii5i±o on page on page 

6. Photograph 552 * 

7. Negatives 554 * 

♦May be found in the files of the subcommittee. 

UI 



SPECIAL SENATE INVESTIGATION ON CRARGES AND 
COUNTERCHAEGES INVOLVING: SECRETARY OF THE 
ARMY ROBERT T. STEVENS, JOHN G. ADAMS, H. STRUVE 
HENSEL AND SENATOR JOE MCCARTHY, ROY M. COHN, 
AND FRANCIS P. CARR 



FRIDAY, APRIL 30, 1954 

United States Senate, 
Special Subcommittee on Investigations of the 

commiittee on go^^rnment operations, 

Washington, D. C. 

AFTER RECESS 

(The hearing was resumed at 2 : 30 p. m., piu'Siiaiit to recess.) 

Present: Senator Karl E. Mnndt, Republican, South Dakota, chair- 
man; Senator Everett M. Dirksen, Republican, Illinois; Senator 
Charles E. Potter, Republican, Michigan; Senator Henry C. Dvvor- 
shak. Republican, Idaho ; Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, Ar- 
kansas; Senator Henry M. Jackson, Democrat, Washington; and 
Senator Stuart Symington, Democrat, Missouri. 

Also present: Ray H. Jenkins, chief counsel to the subcommittee; 
Thomas R. Prewitt, assistant counsel ; and Ruth Y. Watt, chief clerk. 

Principal participants: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, a United 
States Senator from the State of Wisconsin; Roy M. Cohn, chief 
counsel to the subcommittee ; Francis P. Carr, executive director of the 
subcommittee ; Hon. Robert T. Stevens, Secretary of the Army ; John 
G. Adams, counselor to the Army ; H. Struve Hensel, Assistant Secre- 
tary of Defense; Joseph N. Welch, special counsel for the Army; 
James D. St. Clair, special counsel for the Army ; and Frederick P. 
Bryan, counsel to H. Struve Hensel, Assiistant Secretary of Defense. 

Senator Mundt. The committee will please come to order. 

Before we resume with Mr. Juliana who is in the witness chair, the 
chairman would like to announce for the benefit of his colleagues and 
to the credit of the Senate Ladies' Club that we have adjudicated 
one of the collateral controversies which have arisen in connection 
with these hearings. 

We find, unhappily, that this room had been reserved some time ago 
for an annual luncheon of the Senate Ladies, which they put on here 
every year in May, which is Tuesday, May 4. 

As you know, the committee has been trying to expedite the hearings 
as fast as possible, and we, by unanimous vote, decided we should 
continue with the hearings. 

And I have a letter here from Mrs. Allen Frear, wife of Senator 
Frear, who is chairman of the Program Committee of the Senate 

533 



534 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Wives, which says that naturally they had hoped very much to have 
their luncheon here on an annual occasion, and — 

The wife of the President is iuvitetl, but that she has contacted a majority of 
the chairmen of the luncheon committee, and the greater number has expressed 
a desire to release our rights to the caucus room and cancel the lunclieon for 
Mrs. Eisenhower. We feel that the Rules Committee has been very generous 
and considerate of our request, which was to reserve the room, but we also 
realize that the business of the Senate necessarily taljes priority over an engage- 
ment such as this one. 

On behalf of the committee, I desire to express our appreciation to 
the Senate wives. And, since this is an apology day, I apologize to 
the Senate wives on behalf of our committee. We are sorry that this 
conflict arose between a very pleasant occasion and a very unpleasant 
business. And we appreciate very much their consideration. 

Mr. Juliana, I believe you were on the witness stand. 

Will someone refresh the memory of the Chair as to where we left 
off? It was your turn, Mr. Welch. 

TESTIMONY OF JAMES N. JULIANA— Eesumed 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, when I suggested this morning that 
the Senator from Wisconsin, I would be happy to see him follow Mr. 
Stevens to the witness stand, he nodded his head in what I took to be 
agreement. 

And I would like to say to you, Mr. Senator, that I am confident, 
if you now join in that request, that Mr. Jenkins vrill see to it that the 
order is interrupted and that you do go on. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair must remind again the counsel for Mr. 
Stevens, that the control of the hearings is in the hands of the subcom- 
mittee and of our counsel, and we will decide the order of witnesses. 

Mr. Welch. Perhaps I spoke thoughtlessly. I supposed if the 
Senator added his great power to my small voice it would be done 
that way. 

Senator Mundt. I doubt whether, collectively and in concert, you 
could decide the decision of the subcommittee on that score, sir. 

Mr. Welch. I beg your pardon ; I merely hoped I could effect it. 

Senator Mundt. You have the right to try. 

Senator McCarthy. I might say, if the Chair wants me to, I will 
be glad to answer it. 

Mr. Jenkins. I desire to say, Mr. Chairman, that I have never given 
any indication to any of the parties interested as to the order in which 
the witnesses would be put on. 

Senator Mundt. Very good. 

Mr. Welch. Could I have that remark read ; I couldn't get it. 

Mr. Jenkins. I said I desire to say, Mr. AVelch, that I have given no 
indication to anyone as to the order in which we desire to put on the 
proof. 

Mr. Welch. Then we may all have a glad surprise. 

I have had my stopwatch running for 2 or 3 minutes, but I guess I am 
stuck with it. 

Senator Mundt. Will you proceed? 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Juliana, I think perhaps it would help us, in this 
courtroom, if we now got a precise schedule of events as they took 
place. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 535 

On what day did Mr. Scliine, as yon understand it, go to New Yorii 
to get the photograph that has been tlie swbject of so much dis- 
cussion ? 

Mr. Juliana. I do not know the exact date. It was either last 
Wednesday or Thursday, I believe. 

Mr. Welch. Of last week? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And when did the photograph come into this room? 

Mr. Juliana. I received the photograph Thursday, the first day 
of these hearings. 

Mr. Welch. At about what time of the day, sir ? 

Mr. Juliana. I think it was between 3:30 and 4 o'clock in the 
afternoon. 

Mr. Welch. Am I wrong, or would you say I was wrong, if I said 
I was under the impression Mr. Schine brought them on the very day 
that you received them, sir ? 

Mr. Juliana. No ; I think you are right. 

Mr. Welch. And so you came into the possession of the disputed 
photograph on the afternoon of Thursday, a week ago yesterday, at 
about 3 p. m. ? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And when did you first talk to anyone about the photo- 
graph after it came into your possession ? 

Mr. Juliana. I spoke to Mr. Cohn in the caucus room during the 
hearings, by whispering into his ear that the photograph or the pic- 
ture, what I assumed to be the photograph or the picture, had arrived. 

Mr. Welch. The photograph, is that right ? 

Mr. Juliana. I didn't know what the photograph was. 

Mr. Welch. You just said the photograph, and you didn't say a 
photograph ? 

Mr. Juliana. I will now say a photograph. 

Mr. AVelch. You want to change your testimony ? 

Mr. Juliana. I sure do ; a photograph. 

Mr. Welch. By the way, would you like to change your testimony 
in any respect in which you testified this morning ? 

Mr. Juliana. I don't believe so. 

Mr, Welch. Have you read it, sir? 

Mr. Jullvna. Yes ; I have. 

Mr. Welch. Now, you whispered to him not "the photograph has 
come," you are now sure, but "a photograph has come" ; is that right ? 

Senator McCarthy. Could I have that question read ? 

Senator Mundt. Will the reporter read the question, please? 

(Wliereupon, the question referred to was read by the reporter as 
above recorded.) 

Mr. Welch. I think perhaps I had better state it again, because 
these questions unhappily depend a little on the inflection you give 
them. 

When the picture reached the courtroom, you turned to Mr. Cohn 
and whispered something to him, didn't you ? 

Mr. Juliana. I advised Mr. Cohn of something; yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Advised him in a whisper, didn't you ? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. What did you advise him in a whisper? That the 
photograph had come or merely that a photograph had come? 



536 SPECIAL ESrVESTIGATION 

Mr. Juliana. I don't recall the exact words. I may have said the 
picture has arrived. 

Mr. Welch. The picture? 

Mr. Juliana. Or a picture. 

Mr. Welch. Now would you like to choose? 

Mr. Juliana. I won't choose either one or the other, because I can- 
not swear what I told Mr. Cohn. 

Mr. Welch.' Were you under the impression that Mr. Cohn was 
expecting a picture? 

Mr. Juliana. I was under that impression. ^ 

Mr. Welch. Were you under the impression that Mr. Cohn was 
expecting a picture showing Secretary Stevens and Schine alone? 

Mr. Juliana. I did not know. 

Mr. Welch. Now yes or no. Were you under the impression Cohn 
was expecting a picture showing Secretary Stevens and Private 
Schine alone? 

Mr. Juliana. I am not going to answer that yes or no, because if 
I do it is an unfair question. 

Mr. Welch. I don't think that is very unfair. Did you under- 
stand — I am only asking you what you understood, sir. Did you 
understand — may I finish the question ? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Did you understand Mr. Cohn was leaning forward 
in his seat hoping to see a picture of the Secretary and Schine alone? 

Mr. Juliana. I was 

Senator Mundt. Have you a point of order ? 

Senator McCarthy. 1 was going to suggest to the Chair that 
while Mr. Welch is insisting upon a "yes" or "no" answer, it is im- 
possible for the committee to know if it can be answered "yes" or "no." 
I believe it is up to the witness to decide. 

Mr. Welch. I don't want to be unfair to the witness. I thought 
it was a fair question. 

Would you tell me, Mr. Jenkins, if I am wrong ? 

Senator ]\Iundt. Counsel has a right to ask for a "yes" or "no" 
answer. If the witness is unable to answer it "yes" or "no," I presume 
he has a right to say so. 

Senator McCarthy. I thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Juliana. Would you repeat the question, please ? 

Mr. Welch. Yes. When you leaned over to tell this glad, good 
news to Mr. Cohn, were you under the impression that he was hoping 
to hear you had a picture of the Secretary and Private Schine alone? 

Mr. Juliana. I was not under the impression that this was glad 
news to Mr. Cohn. 

Mr. Welch. Glad good news. 

Mr. Juliana. Glad good news to Mr. Cohn. I was under the im- 
pression that ISIr. Cohn knew and was expecting a picture of Mr^ 
Schine and Secretary Stevens to be brought here from New York. 

Mr. Welch, "^riiich picture Mr. Cohn wished to have placed in evi- 
dence ? 

Mr. Juliana. I assume that that is what the purpose of the picture 
was. 

Mr. Welch. Without any doctoring? 

Mr. Juliana. I assume that, too ; yes, sir. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 637 

Mr. Welch. "Wliy did you doctor it, then, when you got the very 
picture you now tell us Colin wanted put in evidence ? 

Mr. Jtjliana. I "doctored" the picture ? I contend I did not doctor 
it. 

Mr. Welch. All right, altered. Would you like that word better, 
sir? 

Mr. Juliana. Would you repeat the question again, please? 

Mr. Welch. Would you read it to him ? 

Senator Mundt. The reporter will read the question. 

(Whereupon, the question was read by the reporter as above re- 
corded.) 

]\Ir. Welch. Would you like better to use the word "altered" than 
"doctored" ? 

Mr. Juliana. I believe something preceded the word "altered" in 
that question. 

Mr. Welch. Would you read the question ahead of the one about 
"altered" which had this word "doctored" in it, sir ? 

(The questions referred to were read by the reporter as above re- 
corded. ) 

Mr. Welch. Now, do you understand where the question stands, 
Mr. Juliana ? If you don't, I would like to make it clear to you. 

Mr. Juliana. Would you make it clear, please ? 

Mr. Welch. My question to you is: "Why, then, did you either 
"doctor" or "alter" a picture that you then had in your possession 
which you understood was the very picture Cohn wished to put in 
evidence ? 

IVIr. Juliana. I was under the impression, as I previously testified 
to here, and I was under the instructions, we can call them, by Mr. 
Cohn and/or JMr. Jenkins, that I was to blow up this picture and to 
make available to Mr. Jenkins a picture of Mr, Schine and Secretary 
Stevens. 

Mr. Welch. Alone? 

Mr. Juliana. The word "alone" was never mentioned to me. 

Mr. Welch. I find myself so puzzled to know why you just did not 
make a photostat of the picture that was delivered to you that after- 
noon and hand it over to Mr. Jenkins. Would you tell us how come 
you did not do that? 

Mr. Juliana. I just mentioned or just stated that I was under in- 
structions to furnish a picture of only the two individuals. 

Mr. Welch. Then you mean 

Senator Mundt. I am sorry, the counsel's time has expired. 

Senator McCarthy ? 

Senator McCarthy. Just one of two questions, Jim. 

Mr. Welch has been using the word "altered" or "doctored" very de- 
liberately and very carefully in each sentence almost. I want to ask 
you to look at the picture that Mr. Welch presented and tell us whether 
or not in your opinion that is the same picture from which the en- 
largement was made. That was presented by Mr. Welch, in case you 
were not here, Mr. Juliana, with the assurance to the committe that that 
was the original from which the enlargement of Schine and Stevens 
:was made. 

Mr. Juliana. I think I will have to have that other picture, too. 

46620'— 64— pt. 14 2 



538 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator McCarthy. Why don't you give liim all three pictures? 
There are three pictures. 

Mr. Chairman, could we just for the sake of keeping the record 
accurate, could we number exhibit 1 — the picture from Dave Schine — 
as 2, and the picture presented by Mr. Welch as No. 3? 

Mr. Welch. Tliey are already numbered somewhat differently, 
Senator. 

Senator McCarthy. How are they numbered, so I will know? 

Mr. Juliana. This is No. 3, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. The one from Schine's wall is No. 3 ? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. And what number is the one introduced in 
evidence? 

Mr. Juliana. No. 4. 

Senator McCarthy. What number is the one produced by Mr. 
AVek'h? 

Mr. Juliana. No. 2, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. So let's call Welch No. 2, right? No. 3 is 
Schine. And No. 4 is the first exhibit. 

Could you tell me, Mr. Juliana, using Mr. Welch's definition of 
"doctorino;," which apparently means what you call in newspaper 
l^arlance ^clipping," is there a doctoring assuming picture No. 3 is 
the same as No. 2 ? Was there a doctoring of Welch's picture, also ? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir, I would say so. 

Senator McCarthy. In other words, they clipped from that at 
least half a man, right? 

Mr. Juliana. At least, and a little more than half a man. 

Senator McCarthy. Other things are clij^ped off the picture? Is 
that a fact? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. So if you want to call it doctoring, using 
Welch's definition, Mr. Welch has also doctored a picture which he 
presented here, or someone else? 

Mr. Juliana. I would think so. 

Senator McCarthy. As far as the faces are concerned on both the 
Welch picture, the Schine picture, and the exhibit — as far as the 
faces, the posture of both Schine and Stevens, they appear to be 
almost identical in all three, right? 

Mr. Juliana. They appear so ; j^es, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. In other words, just so the record is clear, they 
are not put nearer together, they are not shoved farther apart. 

Mr. JiiLiANA. No, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. So if j^ou take the picture of Stevens and 
Schine and forget about the removal of the man who is removed from 
Welch's picture, the removal of the man who was removed from 
Schine's picture, there is no doctoring of any kind, is that correct? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. The expression of both Stevens and Schine 
is the same in all three pictures, is that correct? 

Mr. Juliana. I would say so. 

Senator McCarthy. The same plane in the background ? 

Mr. Juliana. It appears to be, yes, Senator. 

Senator McCarthy. They are standing next to each other, of 
course. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 539 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Juliana, is it correct that you were asked 
to get the picture of Stevens and Schine enlarged; that request was 
made either b}^ INIr. Cohn or by Mr. Jenkins ; and that at that time you 
did not know about the fourth man in the picture who is in the Welch 
picture ? 

Mr. Juliana. Senator, I had never seen tlie picture before. 

Senator McCarthy. You had never seen the Welch picture? 

Mr. Juliana. I had never seen any of these pictures. 

Senator jMcCartiiy. So someone either in the Army laboratory or 
the Air Corps laboratory, someplace, clipped the fourth man off; is 
that right? 

Mr. Juliana. I would assume so, yes. 

Senator IMcCarthy. You say that you assume responsibility for 
clipping off the third man ? 

Mr. Juliana. I so testified, Senator. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Juliana, before you came to the committee, 
now man}^ years did you work in the FBI ? 

Mr. Juliana. Approximately 6I/2, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. At one time was Mr. Frank Carr, the chief 
counsel of the committee, your superior? 

Mr. Juliana. He was, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. In other words, you worked in the Communist 
subversive squad in New York; is that correct? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, Senator. 

Senator McCarthy. And you helped develop the evidence which 
resulted in the conviction of the 11 so-called second-string Com- 
munists ? 

Mr. Juliana. If I may correct you just a little, it was the 11 first- 
string Commmiists, and the second stringers I believe, amounted to 

Senator McCarthy. In other words, you worked on the first string 
and the second string ? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. I am going to ask you a question now. You 
may not be able to answer it, Mr. Juliana, because of the rules and 
regulations of the FBI. 

For the year and a half or 2 years before you came with the com- 
mittee, what kind of work were you doing for the Federal Bureau of 
Investigation ? As I say, if you feel you are violating a rule or regula- 
tion insofar as secrecy is concerned, you, of course, may refuse to 
answer that question. 

Mr. Juliana. I believe I can answer it by stating that I was on a 
confidential assignment involving the internal security of this coun- 
try. 

Senator McCarthy. Can you go this far without violating your 
instructions, to say that you were on a highly confidential assignment 
having to do with communism and espionage in the United States? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. No further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jenkins. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 



540 SPECIAL im^ESTIGATION 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Juliana, the Chair would like to determine — 
I think you have answered this question; perhaps I am repetitious — 
but I would like your forthright answer as to whether or not you 
acted on your own responsibility in producing for the committee the 
photogra])h from which the likeness of Colonel Bradley had been 
eliminated ; or did you do that in conjunction with a plan or a program 
which was worked out between you and others? 

Mr. Juliana. Senator, I took the responsibility to advise the in- 
dividual who actually went to the photostat room with it, to eliminate 
the colonel. However, I Avas acting on instructions that I had re- 
ceived from, as I have stated, Mr. Colin and/or Mr. Jenkins. 

Senator ]\Iundt. Yes, but as you have stated, neither Mr. Colin nor 
Mr. Jenkins, I believe, asked you to eliminate anything from the pic- 
ture. 

Mr. Juliana. No. 

Senator Mundt. They asked you to reproduce a blown-up photostat 
if you had one of Secretary Stevens and Private Scliine ? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator Mundt. It was your action, your instructions relayed to 
the photostater or photostatee — if there is such a word; whoever did 
the pliotostating — relayed to the photostat laboratory that resulted 
in Colonel Bradley's being deleted ? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir; I took that responsibility. 

Senator Mundt. You took that responsibility yourself. 

The question, I think, which is of paramount interest to the com- 
mittee and the country is why you did that? Was that done with 
intent to deceive Mr. Jenkins or the committee? 

Mr, Juliana. That was done with no intent to deceive anyone, nor 
was it done with any intent to trick anyone. 

It was done because I had instructions to furnish Mr. Jenkins with 
a picture of Secretary Stevens and Mr, Schine. 

Senator Mundt, So that you are testifying that it was your im- 
pression that the subcommittee w^as primarily interested in the like- 
nesses of Secretary Stevens and Private Schine? 

Mr, Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Are you quite sure, in searching your conscience 
and your mind, that there w^as no attempt to deceive or defraud any- 
body by what you have done? 

Mr. Juliana. I know of no such intent, Senator. 

Senator Mundt. Are you quite sure that none of your associates 
had suggested to you that perhaps it might be a good trick to eliminate 
Colonel Bradley? 

Mr. Juliana. No one ever suggested any such thing to me. 

Senator Mundt. You are quite sure that the deletion w^as made on 
your own responsibility, then, laboring under whatever impression 
you have ? 

]\Ir. Juliana. I am quite sure; yes, sir. 

Senator Mundt. What was your purpose of having the additional 
three i)hotostats made? You had two made, I think, with the colonel 
out of the picture, and two of them made with the colonel in the 
picture. And Avas that to have them available if the committee 
wanted them, and had somebody instructed you to do that, or what 
was the purpose of that? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 541 

Mr. Juliana. Senator, I had no instructions as to the number of 
copies to be made. I did, or I instructed Mr. Surine to have 2 and 2 
made, and why at this point I can't say definitely. But I would go a 
little further and say it was most likely because in the past I have 
always had an additional copy made of almost every document I ever 
had photostated, which goes into thousands of documents with the 
FBI, when I was so emplo3^ed. 

Also, I thought in my own mind it would be good to have an extra 
copy available. 

Senator INIundt. "Wliat did you have in mind at the time you said 
to Mr. Surine, "Have the photostat laboratory make us four, two with 
the colonel in and two with the colonel out" ? 

Mr. Juliana. For the same reason, it was to have extra copies avail- 
able, I assume, and for no other reason that I know of. 

Senator Mundt. Was there some uncertainty, in your mind at that 
time, as to whether the subcommittee wanted the group of three or 
the group of two ? Or I was wondering why you asked him to make 
two of each ? 

Mr. Juliana. There was no uncertainty at all in my mind. Senator, 
and I was under instructions to get the picture of the two individuals 
in it; and no one had given me instructions to make any number of 
copies. 

Senator Mundt. So much now for getting the picture. Do you 
also assume the responsibility for yourself of determining which of 
the four pictures which had come back to you as enlarged photostats 
was subsequently delivered to counsel Jenkins in the newspaper wrap ? 

Mr. Juliana. I do. 

Senator Mundt. Did you do that on your own or after consultation 
with other members of the staff, as to which of the four should be 
delivered ? 

Mr. Juliana. I did that on my own as best as I can recollect, sir. 

Senator Mundt. And acted on your own responsibility ? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator Mundt. With any intention to deceive or under the im- 
pression that that was the significant part of the picture ? 

Mr. Juliana. Without any malicious intention whatsoever. Senator. 

Senator Mundt. Was there any intention to deceive whatsoever, 
whether malicious or not ? 

Mr. Juliana. No, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Senator McClellan? 

Senator McClellan. Do you also take the full responsibility for 
withholding from counsel, Mr. Jenkins, any knowledge or informa- 
tion that this picture of Mr. Schine and Secretary Stevens was taken 
from a group picture ? 

Mr. Juliana. I do, Senator McClellan. 

Senator McClellan. Then the counsel at the time he presented the 
picture that is now exhibit No. 4, of Mr. Schine and Secretary Stevens, 
had no knowledge that it came from a group picture, did he ? 

Mr. Juliana. To my knowledge, he did not. 

Senator McClellan. You did not acquaint him with that fact? 

Mr. Juliana. No, sir. 

Senator McClellan. You take the responsibility now for failing to 
inform him so that he might have been guided accordingly, do you ? 

Mr. Juliana. I do ; yes, sir. 



542 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator McClellan. That is all. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dirksen? 

Senator Dirksen. I have only one question. Wliy did you deliver 
2, since they were different photographs, and why did you not deliver 
a blowup of each one of the photographs, and 1 containing 3 characters 
and 1 containing 2 ? 

Mr. Juliana. The only reason I did not, Senator, was because in 
discussing this picture with Mr. Cohn and Mr. Jenkins at the original 
meeting, there was never an}^ mention of another party, and I was 
under the continual instruction to furnish a picture of Secretary 
Stevens and Private Schine. 

Senator Dirksen. I have no more questions. 

Senator Jackson. I have no questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Jackson and Senator Potter ? 

Senator Potter. I have no questions. 

Senator Symington. I have no questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dworshak? 

Senator Dworshak. I have no questions. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch ? 

Mr. V/elch. Mr. Juliana, you just told us that you were under con- 
tinuous instructions to furnish a picture of Stevens and Schine; is 
that right, sir? 

Mr. Juliana. That is right; yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. For how long a period had you been under those con- 
tinuous instructions ? 

Mr. Juliana. I believe the first meeting was one night last week, 
and whether it was Tuesday or Wednesday I don't know. Then, 
again, when I told Mr. Cohn in the caucus room here that the picture 
had arrived. 

Mr. Welch. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Juliana. They're the only times I believe that I got any in- 
structions concerning the picture. 

Mr, Welch. So that over a period of a week or more you were under 
what you have called continuous instruction to produce a picture of 
Secretary Stevens and Schine? 

Mr. Juliana. No, Mr. Welch, it was over a period of 2 or 8 days. 

Mr. Welch. Two or three days ? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And like a good hired man, in the end you produced, 
didn't you ? 

Mr, Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Now, in answer to some questions — strike that out. 

You were asked some questions by Senator McCarthy about the 
big picture which is exhibit 2. 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. You do not wish to suggest to this committee or to the 
country that a man named Welch clipped exhibit 2, do you? 

Mr. Juliana. No, sir ; I do not. 

Mr. Welch. You don't for a moment think it is possible that Welch 
clipped exhibit 2, do you ? 

Mr. Juliana. It is possible. 

Mr. Welch. But you don't believe it for a moment ? 

Mr. Juliana. No, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Thank you for that. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 543 

Mr. Juliana, isn't it the simple truth that no blowup of the original 
Schine picture was needed in the first instance? 

Mr. Juliana. I don't follow the question. 

Mr. Welch. Let me put it to you this way : We have been able to 
get along all right in the courtroom with the very thing that was 
brought down from New York, haven't we ? Do you see it ? 

Mr. Juliana. Well, I think I just assume that the only reason it 
was blown up was so that it would be exhibited easier. 

Mr. Welch. Easier? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes. 

Mr. Welch. AVell, then, the only thing to do was to bring in the 
photostat of the original picture, Avith three people in the case, isn't 
that right ? 

Mr. Juliana. I wasn't asked for it and I didn't deliver that. 

Mr. Welch. I think that is right. You were asked for something 
different from the thing that hung on Schine's wall. 

Mr. Juliana. I never knew what hung on Schine's wall. 

Mr. Welch. You did know what hung on Schine's wall when that 
was handed to you, sir. 

Mr. Juliana. I did not know what hung on Schine's wall. 

Mr. Welch. Did you think this came from a pixie? Where did 
you think this picture that I hold in my hand came from ? 

Mr. Juliana. I had no idea. 

Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy says he couldn't hear the ques- 
tion. It will be reread. 

(Whereupon the question referred to was read by the reporter as 
above recorded.) 

Senator McCartht. Will counsel for my benefit define — I think he 
might be an expert on that — what a pixie is ? 

Mr. Welch. Yes. I should say, Mr. Senator, that a pixie is a close 
relative of a iairy. 

Shall I proceed, sir? Have I enlightened you? 

Senator McCarthy. As I said, I think you may be an authority on 
what a pixie is. 

Senator Mundt. Counsel may proceed. 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Juliana, my question to you now is. When we come 
right down to this caucus room, we can do very well with exhibit 3 
which I hold in my hand, can't we ? 

Mr. Juliana. I think it would suffice, but I also think that even 
your blown-up picture is much larger and would be much nicer to 
handle and would be better for the television cameras and for the 
audience. 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Juliana, would you do me the courtesy of remem- 
bering that I, if I produced what I thought was the original picture, 
to be effective needed to produce it on the scale of exhibit 4, which I 
now hold in my hand — do you follow me, sir ? 

Mr. Juliana. No, I do not, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Perhaps it is a little obscure. 

Mr. Juliana. I see. 

Mr. Welch. Another thing: You just told Senator Mundt that 
you had no malicious intent when you handed in what I shall now call 
the smaller picture ; is that right ? 

Mr. Juliana. That is correct, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Are you intensely sorry that you did it? 



544 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 
Mr. Juliana. Due to the fact that 



Mr. Welch. I don't care due to what fact. 

Mr. Juliana. Due to the fact that it has wasted so much time, I 
am sorry. 

Mr. Welch. Only that, sir ? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Your conscience, then, doesn't bother you to this 
moment; is that right? 

JMr, Juliana. I did nothing wrong, in my conscience, and it does 
not bother me. 

Mr. Welch. Don't you think a terrifically unfortunate situation 
was created when ]\Ir. Stevens sat in this chair and was confronted 
with your doctored picture ? 

Mr. Juliana. I respect the Secretary of the Army as I do any other 
Cabinet member of this country, and I wouldn't want to do anything 
to harm him. 

Mr. Welch. Thank you, sir. 

Were you in this room when he was cross-examined by Mr. Jenkins 
in respect to that picture ? 

Mr. Juliana. I believe I was part of the time. I believe I was. 

Mr. Welch. Did you hear the question asked him as to whether or 
not — I refer now to page 434 of the record, where Mr. Jenkins said to 
him : 

I did not say "deinancl," but was your picture after David Schine was drafted 
ever taken with you alone at your suggestion, anywhere? 

Were you in the room when that question was asked the Secretary 
of the Army as he sat by my side ? 

Mr. Juliana. I cannot testify that I was in the room at that time. 
I may have been. 

Mr. Welch. Did you fail to catch that word "alone"? 

Mr. Juliana. I did fail to catch the word "alone." 

Mr. Welch. Now I turn to Mr. Cohn's testimony, and I observe 
that on page 633 he testified : 

And, as a matter of fact, I did not even catch the word "alone" put in there 
by Mr. Jenkins. 

It is unfortunate that neither of you two men who held the key 
to this puzzle heard that word "alone," isn't it? 

Mr. Juliana. If you so term it "unfortunate," it might be. I don't 
term it "unfortunate." 

Mr. Welch. You don't care? 

]\Ir. Juliana. I sure do care. 

Mr. Welch. Then it was unfortunate that the two men who held 
the key to this small fraud, as I claim it was, failed to hear that word 
"alone." 

Mr. Juliana. Do you claim I was involved in a fraud, Mr. Welch? 

Mr. Welch. I claim that there was at least a small fraud or else 
a terrible unfortunate mistake. 

Mr. Juliana. I resent the implication, and I have testified that I 
took the responsibility. 

Mr. Welch. All right. 

Now as to the hearing of the word "alone," have you observed that 
Mr. Cohn is perhaps slightly hard of hearing as he is slightly near- 
sighted ? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 545 

Senator ]\IcCartiiy. How long, JVIr. Chairman 

Senator Mundt. Have j^ou a point of order ? 

Senator McCarthy. Yes, it is a point of order. 

How long must Ave put up with this circus? Is counsel trying to 
elicit information? Good. If he is looking for a laugh from the 
audience, talking about physical defects of my chief counsel, it is so 
indecent and so dislionest — I am not talking about any physical 
defect which Counsel Welch may have. I do not intend to. Let's 
get down to the issues, Mr. Welch. 

Mr. Chairman, may I point out each minute we waste here is 
wasting a vast amount of manpower, very important manpower, I 
think ; the manpower of eight Senators and the heads of our Military 
Establishment. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair will have to say that I doubt that that 
is a point of order. I would like to remind the people in the com- 
mittee room and the audience that the chairman of the congressional 
committee does not have the authority that a judge has in court. 
All he can do is enforce the rules that the committee has. Those 
rules provide that counsel for each side may have 10 minutes in 
which to interrogate the witness, and as long as the questions are 
relevant and material, regardless of whether they are repetitious or 
not, the Chair does not feel he has the power to stoj) counsel or Sena- 
tors from aslviiig questions. 

Senator JNIcCartiiy. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question just 
for information? I think the Chair may be completely correct that 
he is without poAver, but Avhat do you do when the rule says you have 
10 minutes to ask questions, if counsel uses the 10 minutes to clown 
and keep his own Avitness from the stand ? 

Senator Mundt, The Chair simply has the power to tell the coun- 
sel that his time has expired. We have proceeded on the basis that 
these questions are to be asked by counsel and by Senators, and the 
Chair has no power over either Senators or counsel to tell them what 
questions they can and cannot ask, as long as they appear to be rele- 
vant or material. 

You may proceed, Mr. Welch. 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, I am com'ident that Mr. Jenkins knows 
the difference betAveen questioning and clowning, and if Mr. Jenkins 
observes me cloAvning, I wish him to discipline me, as he freely may 
and should. 

Are my 10 minutes up ? I observe by my clock it is. 

Senator Mundt. You have a minute left. 

Mr. Welch. Is your hearing good ? 

Mr. Juliana. Excellent. 

Mr. Welch. Had you heard that word "alone" in Mr. Jenkins' 
questions would you have sprung to the defense of Secretary Stevens ? 

Mr. Juliana. You are asking me a hypothetical question. 

Mr. Welch. Yes, I am, indeed. 

Mr. Juliana. I may have, yes, sir, if I had heard it. 

Mr. Welch. You would have been quick to spring to his defense ? 

Mr. Juliana. Possibly. 

Mr. Welch. From which it follows that you know an injustice 
"was done him, don't you ? 

Mr. Juliana. No, I would not say that. 

46620°— 54— pt. 14 3 



546 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr. Welch. Were you going to spring to his defense in case where 
no injustice was done him? 

Mr. Juliana. I didn't get that, Mr. Welch. 

Mr. Welch. Were you going to spring to his defense under cir- 
cumstances where no injustice was being done him? 

Mr. ,]uLiANA. I still don't follow it. Maybe the reporter should 
read it ? 

Mr. Welch. Maybe the committee does, too. My question is, first 
in two parts. If you had heard the word "alone," in Mr. Jenkins' 
question, you have, I think, said you would have been quick to spring 
to Secretary Stevens' defense, is that right ? 

Mr. Juliana. I did not sa^ that, sir. I said I may have. 

Mr. Welch. You would have liked to, wouldn't you, in fairness? 

Mr. Juliana. I may have. 

Mr. Welch. And if you were going to sj^ring to his defense, it 
would have been because you thought a very unfortunate situation 
was created by what you did to that picture ? 

Mr. Juliana. Possibly so. 

Senator Mundt. Your time has expired. 

Senator McCarthy? 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, I would normally have some 
questions to ask. But I have been waiting here patiently all day to 
get Secretary Stevens back on the stand, and so I shall forego any 
questioiiing at this time. 

Senator Mundt. The turn of the clock reverts to Mr. Jenkins and 
counsel. 

Mr. Jenkins. I have no questions. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair has none. 

Senator McClellan ? 

Senator McClellan. For the present, I pass, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Dirksen. I have no questions. 

Senator Jackson. I have just one question. 

Does Mr. Surine normally do the photostating for the (^ommittee or 
make the arrangements ? 

Mr. Juliana. I don't think so. No, Senator. 

Senator Jackson. How did it happen that Mr. Surine was called 
upon to handle the photostating? 

Mr. Juliana. I thought that, Don, with his experience on the Hill, 
which is a lot longer than mine 

Senator Jackson. What do you mean, experience? 

Mr. Juliana. He has been working in the building here a lot 
longer than I have. Could expedite 

Senator Jackson. I mean on this photostating? 

Mr. Juliana. Could expedite the photostating as well as anyone 
on the staff. 

Senator Jackson. That was the reason why you turned it over 
to him 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson (continuing). To have it photostated? 

Ml. Juliana, That is right. 

Senator Jackson. Just the mechanical act of taking it down and 
carrying out your instructions 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson (continuing). Nothing else? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 547 

That is all. 

Senator Muistdt. Senator Potter? 

Senator Potter. I have no further questions. 

Senator Mundt, Senator Symington? 

Senator Symington. I have no questions. 

Senator Dworshak. I have no questions. 

Senator McCarthy. ]Mr. Chairman 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch comes first. 

]\Ir. Welch. Well, did 3'ou turn to Jslr, Surine for assistance on the 
picture because you considered him peculiarly adept in dealing with 
pictures ? 

j\Ir. Juliana. No, sir. 

Mr. Welch. One thing further only. 

After the Army statement of events was published was some sort 
of a loyalty pledge circulated in your office ? 

Mr. Juliana. I don't believe I have to answer that question. 

Mr. Jenkins. I do not consider that germane to the particular point 
of inquiry unless, Mr. Welch, you can shov/ that it does reflect on the 
inquiry related to these pictures. 

And I must advise the committee that it is not a proper question. 

]Mr. Welch. There is, between you and me, the familiar ground of 
credibility of the witness. 

Mr. Jenkins. Credibility of a witness ? 

Mr. Welch. Yes. 

Mr. Jenkins. Is the question directed to the credibility of the wit- 
ness? 

Mr. Welch. It is very simple, and 

Mr. Jenkins. Will you repeat the question, Mr. Welch ? 

Mr. Welch. At about the time the 

Mr. Jenkins. I remember the question, Mr. Welch. 

Is the question whether or not this witness circulated 

Mr. Welch. Or signed. 



'■^'- 



Mr. Jenkins. ]Mr. Welch, I fail to see where that would reflect on 
the credibility of the witness, frankly. 

Mr. Welch. Could I ask, Mr. Jenkins, that you find out if there 
was such an oath, and allow me to see it sometime ? 

Mr. Jenkins. I will explore that question. 

Mr. Welch. Thank you, sir. 

I think that is all from the Army. 

Senator McCarthy. I have one question. 

Jim, Senator Jackson brought Don Surine's name into this, or 
someone did. Is it correct that the only function Don had was to 
follow your instructions and act as a messenger, and you told him — 
could the photographer move down a bit — that you told him to take 
the picture down and have an enlargement of the entire picture made 
and also have an enlargement of the portion of the picture which in- 
cluded only Secretary Stevens and Schine ? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. And I might add that Don followed my 
instructions implicitly. 

Senator McCarthy. And Surine had nothing whatsoever to do with 
making any decision about what type of an enlargement there would 
be? 

Mr. Juliana. He did not, sir, to my knowledge. 



548 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION" 

Senator McCarthy. In other words, lie was merely a messenger 
boy for you, carrying the picture to the enlargement room and bringing 
it back to you ? 

Mr. Juliana. I don't like to refer to him as a messenger. But 
actually that is what he did. 

Senator McCarthy. I know he is not a messenger. He is an excel- 
lent adviser. But in this particular incident 

Mr, Juliana. Yes, sir; that is correct. 

Senator McCarthy. And he did not discuss with you in any shape 
or form, which picture sliould be submitted to Mr. Jenkins, and he 
didn't know which one you would submit to Mr. Jenkins? 

Mr. Juliana. He did not, sir. You are correct. 

Senator McCarthy. Thank you. 

Senator Mundt. Is there anything further? 

Mr. Jenkins. Nothing further. 

Senator Mundt. Do any of the Senators at my left have any ques- 
tions ? 

Senator McClellan. I do not want to delay this but in view of the 
fact that some question has been asked about doctoring a large picture 
before you, I think it is exhibit No. 2, do you mean to imply that it 
has been doctored in any way? 

Mr. Juliana. No, I do not mean to imply that. 

Senator McClellan. It just occurred to me that that picture there 
may — and I do not know — represent the film in its entirety, and do you 
know whether it does or not? 

Mr. Juliana. I do not, Senator. 

Senator McClellan. Thank you. 

Mr. Jenkins. May I state for your information. Senator McClellan, 
that while we are on the subject of these photographs, and I do hope 
that in the interest of expediting this matter we have about explored 
that subject, the original of the Stevens-Adams exhibit will be intro- 
duced this afternoon and presently. It will clarify any question about 
whether or not any alteration of it was made. I think that will cer- 
tainly complete the exploration directed at these photographs. 

Senator Mundt. Do any of the Senators at my right have any 
further questions? 

Any to my left ? 

Mr. Welch, do you have any questions? 

Mr. Welch. I have one single question. 

At page 1254 of the record, which was your testimony this morning, 
would you read your answer that I point to ? 

Senator Mundt. Read the question, too. 

Mr. Welch. The answer is complete. 

Mr. Juliana (reading) : 

My instructions were tliat I was to enlarge and give to Mr. Jenkins a photo- 
grapli of Mr. Stevens and Private Schiue. 

Mr. Welch. And those instructions came in part from Mr. Cohn ? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And you obeyed them? 

Mr. Juliana. Mr. Cohn 

Mr. Welch. And you obeyed them ? 

Mr. Juliana. Mr. Cohn and/or Mr. Jenkins. r 

Senator Mundt. Let the witness finish. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 549 

Mr. Welch. I said those instructions came in part from Mr. Colin ? 

Senator Mundt. You interrupted him halfway through his sen- 
tence and I was trying to get his full answer. 

Mr. Juliana? IVIy instructions came from Mr, Cohn, and/or Mr. 
Jenkins, 

Mr. Welch. Would you listen to the question ? 

Mr. Juliana. I hear your question. 

Mr. Welch. Your instructions came in part from Mr. Cohn? 

Mr. Juliana. You are right, yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And you obeyed them ? 

Mr. Juliana. Yes, sir. 

Senator Mundt, Senator McCarthy. 

Senator McCarthy. I have no questions. 

Senator Mundt. Without objection, the Chair is ready to dismiss 
Mr. Juliana and I will ask associate counsel, Mr, Maner, to call the 
next witness. Mr, Maner will take over temporarily for Mr. Jenkins. 

Mr. Maner. The next witness will be Mr. Don Surine. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question. 
We deviated from the ground rules in order to present the facts in 
regard to the photograph. I have sat here now for over a day listen- 
ing to the facts being developed and I can see no reason to keep Mr. 
Stevens off the stand further. 

There can be no question in anyone's mind about the picture, and 
it is very clear now that there was a picture on Dave Schine's wall 
"which included Mr, Schine, Mr, Stevens, and some colonel standing 
by the side; but there was another picture with a fourth man's 
sleeve on it that Mr. Juliana gave Mr. Jenkins, and the picture of 
only Schine and Stevens; that Mr, Jenkins had no knowledge of 
a third man having been on it or a fourth m.an having been on it. 

At this time, Mr. Chairman, I ask that we return to the usual 
order, and I call the Chair's attention to the rule No. 2 adopted, and 
this provides that once a witness is on the stand, first counsel have un- 
limited time to question him and then you alternate from side to side 
10 minutes to start over until that witness' testimony has been 
completed. 

As the Chair knows, I came back here from out in Arizona, where 
I was doctoring a virus infection in my throat and I spent a day 
with the committee. We agreed on these rules. 

As the Chair knows, he called me the following day and read the 
rules to me and as the Chair knows I said that if it were firmly 
agreed that these ground rules would be followed, that I would 
temporarily step off the committee and appoint someone to take my 
place. 

Senator Dworshak:. I make a point of order that for the third 
time during this hearing, the Senator from Wisconsin has made 
an erroneous statement to the effect that he has appointed someone 
to take his place on this committee. Is that a correct or incorrect 
statement, Mr, Chairman? 

Senator McCarthy. Could I finish ? Could I finish my statement, 
Mr, Chairman? 

Senator Mundt. I will answer Senator Dworshak and then return 
toyou: 

Senator McCarthy. Could I make my statement without inter- 
ruption ? 



550 SPECIAL ESrVESTIGATION 

Senator Mundt,; The Chair would like to answer the question, if 
he may. 

As the Chair recalls, the manner in which Senator Dworshak be- 
came a member of this committee was in conformity with the procedure 
by which he will become permanently appointed. The difference 
being, in your case it was a temporary selection. You were nominated 
by the Senator from Wisconsin, and you were confirmed by the full 
committee, and became a member of the subcommittee in that way. 

Senator McCarthy. IMay I say, just so there is no — — 

Senator Muis;dt. I mioht say, over your objection, over your nega- 
tive vote. 

Senator McCaktiiy. May I say, so there is no misunderstanding on 
the })art of Senator Dworshak, there was a question of whether I 
should appoint or nominate or call it what you may. Senator Dworshak 
or Senator Butler. Senator Butler was not feeling well that day. 
I now Avish he had been feeling well. Because of the temporary dis- 
ability of Senator Butler, and for that reason alone, I nominated 
Senator Dworshak. 

Mr. Chairman, may I finish now ? 

Senator Mundt. You may. You are stating a point of order, I 
believe. 

Senator McCarthy. Yes. I feel it is a very important point of 
order. 

The Chair called me. The Chair either personally, or his secre- 
tary, I don't recall Avliich, read to me the rules pro])osed. At that 
time I dictated to the Chair's secretary a wire asking the Chair to 
call a meeting of the full committee so that these rules might be 
adopted, so that the nomination of Senator Dworshak might be con- 
firmed. As the Chair will well recall, even though neither one of us 
were monitoring that conversation, as the Chair will well recall, it 
w^as the strict, distinct understanding that I was stepping off the sub- 
committee only because I agreed fully with tlie ground rules, and if 
there were any change in the ground rules during the proceeding, 
that I w^ould insist upon resuming my place upon the subcommittee. 

The Chair knows that I happen to be chairman of the full com- 
mittee, also. I am not asserting any rights as such. I am merely 
asserting the right which we agreed upon. 

If the Chair insists upon allowing Mr. Stevens more time, unless 
Mr. Stevens says he needs the rest, to call some man who is a messenger 
only, according to the testimony, to call other individuals who can add 
nothing to this picture, I will, Mr. Chairman, do everything I can to 
resume my position on the subcommittee from which I retired with 
the understanding that these ground rules would be followed. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman, may I make a statement ? 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Jenkins. 

Mr. Jenkins. Senator McCarthy, we have reached a decision with 
reference to Mr. Surine, and it will obviate the necessity of any further 
discussion about it, I am sure. 

Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman? 

Senator Mundt. Senator McClellan. 

Senator McClellan. I would like to be heard to this extent : I do 
not agree with Senator McCarthy with respect to his interpretation 
of the rules adopted. I am just about as anxious as he is to get on 
with this hearing and to get the Secretary back on the stand. If 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 551 

Mr. Jenkins, or there are those who think Mr. Surine is a witness who 
should be heard in this controversy, and with the assurance of the 
Chair and Mr. Jenkins that he will later be called, without conceding 
the rules require this committee to do so, I would then move that we 
proceed to recall the Secretary of the Army. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman, I now give that assurance, but we do 
have another witness who is a short witness that we desire to put on 
before the Secretary of the Army is recalled. 

Senator Mundt. Counsel has advised the Chair that the actual 
negative is in the room, and the man who took it. I think he has been 
subpenaed to appear. 

]\fr. Jenkins. We desire to call Mr. Manchester as the next witness. 

Senator Symington. A point of order, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Symington has a point of order. 

Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman, am I to understand from the 
counsel and from you, sir, that before these hearings are over, Mr. 
Surine is to be called before this committee in these hearings ? 

Senator Mundt. Yes, sir ; you have that assurance. 

Senator Symington. I thank joii. 

Senator IMcCarthy. I have one question. How long 

Senator INIundt. The Chair overrules the Senator's previous point 
cf order. He may make another. 

Senator McCarthy. How long will this witness take? 

Mr. Jenkins. Five minutes, Senator. No more. 

Call Sergeant Manchester. 

Senator Mundt. Sergeant Manchester is the next witness. 

Mr. Jenkins. Call Mr. Manchester, please. 

Senator Mundt. Is Mr. Manchester in the room ? 

Mr. Jenkins. Sergeant Manchester. 

Senator McCarthy. While the sergeant is being forwarded, Mr. 
Chairman, may I say I vrould like to have the Chair, if he will, call an 
executive session of this committee at such time as will not interfere 
with the public sessions. I would like to discuss matters having to 
do with the contacts between certain members of this committee and 
witnesses and the motives involved in some cases. I think that should 
be done in executive session at the very earliest possible moment, Mr. 
Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Are you Sergeant Manchester? 

Sergeant Manchester. I am, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Will you stand and be sworn, please ? 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are to give will be the 
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Sergeant Manchester. I do, sir. 

TESTIMONY OP S. SGT. HEEBEET EICHAED MANCHESTER 

Mr. Jenkins. Sergeant Manchester, give your full name. 

Sergeant Manchester. Herbert Richard Manchester, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. What is your rank with the Army ? 

Sergeant Manchester. I am staff sergeant in the Army. 

Mr. Jenkins. Where are you stationed ? 

Sergeant Manchester. I am not in the Army, sir ; I am in the Air 
Force. 

Mr. Jenkins. Where were you on November 17, 1953, when certain 
photographs were made ? 



552 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Sergeant Manchester. I was at McGuire Air Force Base. 

Mr. Jenkins. McGuire Air Station? 

Sergeant Manchester. McGuire Air Force Base. 

Mr. Jenkins. Did you direct the making of certain photographs on 
that occasion? 

Sergeant Manchester. I did, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. I hand you, Sergeant, a photograph, and I will 
identify it as being a photograph of the Secretary of the Army, Mr. 
Stevens; Mr. Schine; Colonel Bradley; and a fourth man whom I 
do not know. I will ask you to examine that photograph and state 
whether or not you directed the taking of it on November 17. 

Senator Mundt. Without objection the photograph will be entered 
as exhibit No. 6 in the series of photographs. The Chair hears none. 
It is so ordered. 

(The photograph referred to was marked as "Exhibit No. 6" and 
will be found in the files of the subcommittee. ) 

Senator Mundt. You may proceed further. 

Sergeant Manchester. Yes, sir; this is the photogra[)h tlmt was 
taken that evening. 

Mr. Jenkins. Can you identify the fourth man? 

Sergeant Manchester. Yes, I can, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Who is he ? 

Sergeant Manchester. He is Mr. Carr. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Carr? 

Sergeant Manchester. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Now I will ask you to examine a photograph intro- 
duced by the Army, being the large one, exhibit No. 2, and state 
whether or not that in your opinion is the same photograph, the one 
you are now examining, and introduced by Mr. Stevens and Mr. 
Adams as the first photograph I handed you containing a picture of 
four men, with a deletion or omission of the fourth man. 

Sergeant Manchester. Could you let me have that just once more, 
sir? 

Mr. Jenkins. State whether or not the photograph you now look 
at, introduced by Mr. Stevens and Mr. Adams and showing 3 men 
and the sleeve of a fourth man, is in your opinion the same photograph 
as the one I first handed you, showing a photograph of 4 men, the 
fourth man being Mr. Carr. 

Sergeant Manchester. It looks the same, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Is it or not in your opinion the same ? 

Sergeant Manchester. In my opinion it is, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Did you direct the taking of that photograph ? 

Sergeant Manchester. I did, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Who was the photographer? 

Sergeant Manchester. Staff Sergeant Lang, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Do you know where he is ? 

Sergeant Manchester. In Japan right now, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. That was my understanding. Do you know whether 
or not he has been directed to return at my request ? 

Sergeant Manchester. I do not know, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You do not know? 

Sergeant Manchester. No, sir. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 553 

Senator Mundt. A point of order. Temporarily to be sure we have 
the record straight, for the reporter, what is the number of that largo 
photograph ? We have No. 3 and No. 2, the big blown-up one. 

Sergeant Manchester. Tliat is No. 9, sir. 

Senator Mundt. No. 2 instead of No. 3 ? 

Sergeant Manchester. Yes, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Mrs. Watt advises me that the one entered in evi- 
dence should be No. 2 instead of No. 4. That is so that we can have 
the record straight. 

Mr. Jenkins. Being the first one I presented to the witness. 

Senator Mundt. Yes. 

Mr. Jenkins. Sergeant, do you know who — if they are the same 
photograph, made from the same print — deleted or cut out the fourtli 
man ? 

Sergeant Manchester. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Who did that? 

Sergeant Manchester. I did, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You did that? 

Sergeant Manchester. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Wliy did you do that? 

Sergenat Manchester. Well, the main reason, sir, was so that the 
photograph that I did have made would be centered on the three 
individuals who in my mind were the main characters of the picture. 

Mr. Jenkins. You did not consider Mr. Carr a main character of 
the picture, is that right? 

Sergeant Mancpiester. No, it is not that, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Sergeant, did anyone direct you to do that? 

Sergeant Manchester. No, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You did it entirely on your own initiative? 

Sergeant Manchester. I did, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. To whom did you deliver that photograph? 

Sergeant Manchester. I did not deliver it to anybody, sir; I sent 
one photograph to Private Schine. 

Mr. Jenkins. At his request? 

Sergeant Manchester. At his request, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Is that the photograph I am now handing you ? And 
I am ashing you to please ])ass it to him. Being exhibit No. 3, being 
the same as exhibit No. 3, is that the one you sent to Private Schine? 

Sergeant Manchester. This is not the exact one, it is a copy of the 
one. 

Mr. Jenkins. I mean a copy. 

Sergeant Manchester. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. It is? 

Sergeant Manchester. Yes, sir, it is a copy. 

Mr. Jenkins. To whom did you send a copy of exhibit No. 6, being 
the first photograph I handed you when you took the witness stand ? 

Sergeant Manchester. I did not send this to anybody, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Well, then, how — Do you know how Mr. Stevens and 
Mr. Adams came in possession of it and introduced it in evidence ? 

Sergeant Manchester. Of this photo here, as No. 2? 

Mr. Jenkins. Yes. 

Sergeant Manchester. I did not say how they came into posses- 
sion of it, sir, and I do not know. 



654 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr. Jekkins. My question is, Do you know how they came into 
possession of the photograph filed as an exhibit, showing three men 
and the sleeve of, it now develops, Mr. Carr ? 

Sergeant Manchester. Oh, no, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You do not ? 

Sergeant Manchester. No, sir. 

Mr, Jenkins. And on your own initiative, you cut out the fourth 
man, regarding him as unimportant ? 

Sergeant Manchester. It was not that I regarded him as unim- 
portant, it is just that he was in an unfavorable position in the photo. 

Mr. Jenkins. Sergeant, I hand you the negatives. How many 
photogi'aphs were taken there that day ? 

Sergeant Manchester. There were eight photographs taken that 
day. 

Mr. Jenkins. All at your direction ? 

Sergeant Manchester. All at my direction. 

Mr. Jenkins. I thinlc perhaps you had better file the negatives of 
those photographs out of an abundance of precaution, if these are the 
negatives, and I will ask you to examine them and state whether or not 
they are. If so, file them. 

(The negatives referred to above were marked as "Exliibit No. 7" 
and will be found in the files of the subcommittee. ) 

That is my examination-in-chief, and I now pass the witness. 

(The witness examined the negatives.) 

Senator Mundt. Sergeant, do you find eight negatives there ? 

Sergeant Manchester. No, sir, there are only three negatives. 

Senator Mundt. Three negatives? 

Sergeant Manchester. Yes, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Where are the other five ? 

Sergeant Manchester. The other five, they were supposed to have 
been destroyed; and according to our base photo lab, they were 
destroyed. 

Senator Mundt. At whose order were they destroyed ? 

Sergeant Manchester. I imagine they were destroyed at the order 
of Warrant Officer Moe who was in charge of the base photo lab at 
McGuire Air Force Base. 

Senator Mundt. Why were they destroyed ? 

Sergeant Manchester. Due to the fact that they were too thin for 
printing, sir, and they were underexposed or something, some defect 
in the negative, and therefore they were not of any value to us. 

Senator Mundt. When were they destroyed ? 

Sergeant Manchester. In all probability they were destroyed 
November 18, sir. I could not state. 

Senator Mundt. To the best of your knowledge, they were destroyed 
the day after the picture was taken ? 

Sergeant Manchester. To the best of my knowledge, yes, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Did you do the blowup of the picture which is now 
known as exhibit No. 2, personally ? 

Sergeant Manchester. No, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Was it done at your order ? 

Sergeant Manchester. No, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Do you know who did it? 

Sergeant Manchester. I do not, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Or from which negative ? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 555 

Sergeant jManchester. No, sir; I do not know. 

Senator Mundt. You know nothing about the big photograph 
known as exhibit No. 2, introduced by Mr. Welch? 

Sergeant Manchester. I do not, sir. 

Senator INIundt. Senator McClellan ? 

Senator McClellan. I have no questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dirksen. 

Senator Dirksen. I have no questions. 

Senator Potter. I have no questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Symington? 

Senator Symington. I have no questions. 

Senator ]\Iundt. Senator Dworshak? 

Senator Dworshak. I have no questions. 

Senator JMundt. JNIr. "Welcli ? 

Mr. Welch. I have no questions. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Cohn. 

Mr. CoiiN. I have just one question. 

Sergeant, there was something, you say there were eight pictures 
taken on that day ? 

Sergeant IManchester. Yes, sir; there was. 

Mr. CoiiN. Do you have negatives or positives of all eight of those 
pictures? 

Sergeant MANCiiESTf:R. No, we don't, sir. 

Mr, CoHN. Is there any record of who was in each of those eight 
pictures ? 

Sergeant Manchester. No, sir. 

Mr. Cohn. Of how many pictures do you have a record? 

Sergeant Manchester. Three, sir. 

Mr. ConN. Do we have positives of those three pictures here? 

Sergeant Manchester. No ; we have the negatives of them, yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. But no positives have been made ? 

Sergeant Manchester. I wouldn't know, sir. Yes. 

Mr. Cohn. I just can't hear you, Sergeant. 

Sergeant Manchester. Yes, there have been some made. 

Mr. CoHN. Have they been supplied to Mr. Jenkins ? 

Sergeant Manchester. They have, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. I was just wonclering if we could take a little look at 
those, Eay. Now, do you know of whom those five pictures, the 
negatives of which have been destroyed, were taken ? 

Sergeant Manchester. No ; I couldn't say, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. You cannot say ? 

Sergeant Manchester. No, sir. 

Mr. Cohn. Can you tell us whether or not any of those five pictures 
were of Secretary Stevens and Private Schine alone ? 

Sergeant Manchester. No, sir. 

Mr. Cohn. You cannot tell us ? 

Sergeant Manchester. I cannot say, sir. I will say that it is my 
recollection we only took one picture of that type of Secretary Stevens 
and Private Schine, sir. 

Mr. Cohn. And Colonel Bradley was in that picture and Mr. Carr? 

Sergeant Manchester. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Cohn. And you cut Mr. Carr out of the picture ? 

Sergeant Manchester. Yes, I did. 



556 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr. CoHN". Has Mr. Welch accused you of having doctored the 
picture ? 

Sergeant Manchester. He hasn't, no. 

Mr, CoHN. He hasn't made that accusation against you ? 

Sergeant Manchester. No. 

Mr. CoHN. There was certainly nothing deliberate, and when you 
sent Private Schine the picture as an official photograph, there was no 
evil intent or no design on your part in having cut Mr. Carr out of 
the picture first ; was there ? 

Sergeant Manchester. No, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. I believe you say you wanted to center it on the people 
you regarded as the three central figures. Secretary Stevens, Private 
Schine, and Colonel Bradley; is that correct? 

Sergeant Manchester. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. I see. And you say you did not make the blowup of 
this picture ? 

Sergeant Manchester. I did not. 

Mr. CoHN. And I assume you don't know who cut Mr. Carr off 
the blowup ? 

Sergeant Manchester. I do not, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. You don't know who did that? 

Sergeant Manchester. No, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Have you heard from Mr. Welch who might have cut 
Mr. Carr off that picture before Mr. Welch presented it to the 
committee ? 

Sergeant Manchester. I have not, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. I have no further questions. 

Senator Mundt. Has anybody else at the table any questions you 
want to ask ? 

Mr. Welch? Senator McCarthy ? 

No questions. You are dismissed, Sergeant. Thank you, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman, I desire to compliment the committee, 
partisan interests and counsel, on the speed with which this witness 
was disposed of, and trust that we will follow the same rules with 
respect to the succeeding witnesses ; and I now desire to call back the 
Secretary of the Army, Mr. Stevens, and state that I have no further 
questions to ask him. He is now your witness. 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, I find on the table what I take to be 
the films that the last witness testified to. 

Senator Mundt. Mrs. Watt is on her way there to pick up the 
exhibits, sir. 

TESTIMONY OF HON. ROBERT T. STEVENS, SECRETARY OP THE 

ARMY— Resumed 

Senator Mundt. The Chair has no further questions of Mr. Stevens 
at this time, and will pass to Senator McClellan. 

Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, I do not want to ask any 
questions of the Secretary other than to inquire if he has had time 
yet to compile the data that I requested regarding the number of 
man-hours that have been involved in this controversy. 

Secretary Stevens. Not yet. Senator McClellan. 

Senator McClellan. No further questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dirksen? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 557 

Senator Dirksen. No questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Jackson? 

Senator Jackson. No questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Potter? 

Senator Potter. I have no questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Symington? 

Senator Symington. No questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dworshak ? 

Senator Dworshak. No questions. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch ? 

Mr. Welch. No questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy, you or Mr. Cohn or Mr. Carr. 

Senator McCarthy. I have a number of questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Stevens, you may recall that you and I had lunch together at 
the Pentagon some time ago. 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Senator McCarthy. I was there at your invitation, right? 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Senatot McCarthy. I believe you covered this before, but let's see 
if I am correct in this: The group present increased after the lunch- 
eon; is that right? 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Senator McCarthy. Who had luncheon, No. 1, with you? 

Secretary Stevens. You did, Frank Carr, Roy Cohn, John Adams, 
and I. 

Senator McCarthy. After lunch was over, we were joined by three 
other people; is that correct? 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Senator McCarthy. Who were they, Bob? 

Secretary Stevens. General Ridgway, Chief of Staff, General 
Trudeau, G-2, Intelligence, of the Army, Assistant Chief of Staff, and 
General Mudgett, Chief of Information. 

Senator McCarthy. About how long did we talk before Ridgway 
and the other two men came in ? 

Secretary Stevens. I think we probably had lunch about 12 : 30 
and visited until close to 2 o'clock. I think the three generals came 
in about then. 

Senator McCarthy. A completely friendly meeting, as you recall ? 

Secretary Stevens. A completely friendly meeting. 

Senator McCarthy. We spent practically all the time, did we not, 
discussing the investigation of Communist infiltration into military 
installations, not only those strictly military but also defense plants ; 
isn't that correct? 

Secretary Stevens. Also what ? What was that final phrase ? 

Senator McCarthy. Not only strictly military installations, but 
also defense plants ? 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Senator McCarthy. At that time, you were rather unhappy, were 
you not, Bob, about the fact that these investigations were being con- 
ducted, and you said that you thought we should stop the "investiga- 
tion" or "suspend," whatever word you want to use, and let you take 
over? 

Secretary Stevens. No, sir, that is not correct. I was disturbed 
by the type of hearing which was being held, not by the investigation. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you object to the type of hearing? 



558 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Senator McCarthy. What about the hearing did you not like? 

Secretary Stevens. I didn't like the type of publicity that was 
emanating from the executive hearings which you were holding with 
regard to Fort Monmouth. 

Senator McCarthy. Did I explain to you at that time that as long 
as we had the doors open for anyone whom you cared to send to the 
liearings, in view of the stories, the alleged leaks, if you can use that 
word, that were being run by certain papers in regard to what oc- 
curred at various meetings, that I felt that I had no choice but to 
talk to the press after each meeting which was attended by any of 
your personnel, do this in the presence of Mr. Adams, give them a 
resume of what occurred, without giving them the names of the wit- 
nesses; and that if I did not accurately state the facts, Mr. Adams 
had a right to correct me. 

The reason for this was to try to keep the record straight ; other- 
wise, we would have a few favored individuals — I think I mentioned 
the names of the Alsops and the Pearsons, et al., who would get the 
story from Pentagon leaks. That was explained to you ; was it not ? 

Secretary Stevens. I don't recall it at all, Senator. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you object at that time to my briefing 
the press after the executive session? 

Secretary Stevens. No, I didn't object to your briefing the press. 
Senator. The thing that I did object to was the way you briefed 
them. 

Senator McCarthy. The way what ? 

Secretary Stevens. The way you briefed them. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you object to that? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Are you sure? This was at the Pentagon 
meeting ? 

Secretary Stevens. I repeated, I said many times I didn't want to 
have the Army hammered over the head. Senator. 

Senator McCarthy. You stated that a number of times. I am try- 
ing now, if I can. Bob, to tie you down to this meeting at the Pentagon, 
a very important one, I think. You had a purpose, of course, for 
calling us over there. I want to know now whether at that time you 
objected to the fact that I briefed the press, or did you tell me that I 
didn't give the press an accurate story? Did you tell them I gave 
them an untrue story? Just try to tell us what you objected to. 

Secretary Stevens. I objected to the hammering over the head of 
the Army and the unfair publicity that was going on in regard to 
these hearings. 

Senator McCarthy. You talk about "hammering over the head." 
It sounds rather rough. 

Secretary Stevens. I think that 

Senator McCarthy. Who up to that point had been hammered 
over the head ? 

Secretary Stevens. I think the New York Times editorial this 
morning gives a pretty good picture of what I am trying to talk 
about here. 

Senator McCarthy. Why don't you testify, and not the New York 
Times ? 

Secretary Stevens. All right. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 559 

Senator McCarthy. Who liad been hammered over the head up 
until the date Ave met at the Pentagon ? 

Secretary Stevens. The Army. 

Senator McCarthy. You mean a few Communists in the Army, 
don't you, Bob ? 

Secretary Stevens. No. I mean that the net impact, as I have 
evahiated it, on the public and on the Army was that there was cur- 
rent espionage in a substantial way at Fort Monmouth, when that was 
not in accordance with the facts as far as I then knew. 

Senator McCarthy. General Lawton suspended some 33 individ- 
uals, all because they had either a background of communism or close 
association with Communists. Does that, in your opinion, set the 
stage for possible espionage ? 

Secretary Stevens. I don't have the detail of the charges. As I 
have said before. Senator McCarthy, to the extent we can under Presi- 
dential directives, we will produce detailed information. 

Senator ]\IcCartiiy. You say there was no espionage at Fort Mon- 
mouth? When you suspend 33 people because of their Communist 
backgrounds or Comnmnist connections, you are suspending them for 
fear that they may give away this secret information. If you felt they 
would not do that, there would be no reason to suspend them. 

Secretary Stevens. I don't agree that they were Communists or 
Communist background. I would have to check each one of these 
cases before I could possibly subscribe to that statement. 

Senator McCarthy. You mean up to this point you have not checked 
any of the cases? 

Secretary Stevens. I know in general, but I don't know in detail. 
We were looking for security risks. There are a lot of things besides 
the things you are talking about that can constitute a security risk. 

Senator McCarthy. All right. When you talk about a security 
risk, you are talking about a man who might give away the Nation's 
secrets ? 

Secretary Stevens. Possibly wholly unintentionally by being too 
talkative, or something of that kind. 

Senator McCarthy. But in any event when you talked about a 
security risk, or a loyalty risk, you are talking about a man who may 
either purposely or inadvertently give away the Nation's secrets ? 

Secretary Stevens. We are talking about somebody that you want 
to be darn sure it is safe to have on sensitive work. 

Senator McCarthy. Well all right. 

Now, what is espionage, in your vocabulary ? 

Secretary Stevens. Spying. 

Senator McCarthy. Well, now if a man gives away a secret that 
would be a violation of the Espionage Act, would it not? 

Secretary Stevens, You would know about that; I assume that 
would be correct. 

Senator ]\IcCarthy. Well, Kobert, you are the Secretary of the 
Army? 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Senator McCarthy. Well, now, if a man, or if an employee of the 
Army gave an unauthorized person secret, top secret, or confidential 
materia], that would be a violation of the Espionage Act? 



560 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Secretary Stevens. You are familiar with that; I assume that it 
would be Senator, and it certainly sounds so. 

Senator McCarthy. Don't you know ? 

Secretary Stevens. I would like to ask counsel about that. 

Senator McCarthy. You may. 

Mr. Welch. I would rather ask Mr. Jenkins and let him tell us. 
. Senator Mundt. Mr, Jenkins has been unsworn so he can't testify, 
but you may advise your witness if you care to. 

Mr. Jenkins. I recall distinctly having asked the Secretary the 
very same question as to what espionage is. But the Senator has 
a right to pursue it further if he so desires. 

Senator McCarthy. Don't you know what espionage is? I ask 
you, Bob, because you made the statement several times here that 
there was no espionage at Fort ]\Ionmouth. I am trying to find out 
if you know what it is. 

Secretary Stevens, I had made the statement there was no 
espionage as of the time of tliat luncheon that I knew about. 

Senator McCarthy. AVell since that time, there have been sus- 
pended a number of individuals because of Communist backgrounds 
or connections ; is that not right ? 

Secretary STE^^NS. I wouldn't say ; I can't agree on the last, with- 
out looking them up, Senator ; there were suspensions, most of which, 
as you know, took place in the month of October and some in 
November. 

Senator McCarthy. What is the date of the meeting, do you 
remember ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, November 6. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you recall at that time, Mr. Secretary, 
that when we were discussing this matter, that I told you that even 
though I personally liked you, that I couldn't possibly call off a hear- 
ing, and if I did I would be guilty of the same type of activities, which 
I condemned and campaigned against, on the part of some of the 
members of the opposite political partj^? Do you remember that? 

Secretary Stevens. I don't remember that exact language. But 
I remember some general thought along that line, I think, Senator. 

Senator McCarthy. I told you, didn't I, Mr. Secretary, that I could 
not call off the investigation because I thought it would be improper 
on my part to do it ? 

Secretary Stevens. I didn't want you to call off the investigation. 

Senator McCarthy. Did I tell you that. Bob ? 

Secretary Stevens.- I don't recall that. 

Senator McCarthy. Well, substantially, did I tell you that? 

Secretary Stevens. I remember some general talk along that line, 
yes, Senator. 

Senator Mundt. The Senator's time has expired. 

Now, Mr. Counsel ? 

Mr. Jenkins. No further questions. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Secretary, I would like to ask you 2 or 3 
questions about an event related somewhat to this general area, but 
limited to 1 particular report that has come to the attention of the 
chairman over the course of the past 48 hours. 

It deals with the compilation and publication of what I think 
now may have been called, too optimistically, as a memo of under- 
standing. You will recall, I am sure, that event? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 561 

Secretary Ste\tens. Yes, sir. 

Senator Mundt. The report has come to me that it has been 
stated, and I am sure not by you, but I want the record to be clear, 
it has been stated that Senator Potter and Senator Dirksen and 
Senator Mundt "svere guilty of some type of entrapment in inviting 
you to attend what has become now by newspaper language to be 
called a chicken luncheon in Senator Dirksen's office. 

And I would like to ask you a few questions about that. 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Senator ISIuxdt. Do you recall that I telephoned you one day from 
my office about the possibility of having that luncheon? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. I don't know where you were, but I 
know you called me. 

Senator JMundt. Do you recall that, in general, the tenor of my con- 
versation with you over the telephone was to the effect that since a 
public hearing had been established, and since it had been decided 
to have you appear as a public witness, and since the previous con- 
versations which I have had with you I felt that some of the purposes 
for the public hearing had been misunderstood by the press, and that 
I thought it might serve the public interest if you, Senator Potter, 
Senator Dirksen, and I, together with Senator McCarthy might meet 
for lunch and see how wide were the areas of disagreement and 
whether they could be dissolved? 

Secretary Stevtiins. Yes; I don't know that I recall all of what 
you have said, Mr. Chairman, but substantially that was the idea. 

Senator Mundt. The particular point in question, I think, you will 
recall, that I mentioned to you specifically, that we would have Sena- 
tor McCarthy at that luncheon. 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Senator Mundt. I simply Avanted the record to be clear, because it 
had been reported to me that somebody had said, in your behalf, and 
I was confident it was not you, that you did not know that Senator 
McCarthy was going to be at that luncheon, and I am sure I advised 
you of that over the telephone, and I am sure that I advised you of 
the fact when you came to my office, and we walked over to the place 
of the luncheon together ; isn't that correct ? 

Secretary Stevens. That is correct. 

Senator AIundt. Thank you. That was all. 

Senator McClellan ? 

Senator McClellan. What was the date of that lunclieon ? 

Secretary Stevens. The 24th of February. 

Senator McClellan. The 24th of February ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. That was a partisan lunclieoii, was it; the 
Democrats were not invited ? 

Secretary Stevens. They were not present. 

Senator McClellan. You don't blame them for what occurred? 

Secretary Stevens. No, sir. 

Senator McClellan. Thank you. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dirksen ? 

Senator Dirksen. I have no questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Jackson ? 

Senator Jackson. I have no questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Potter ? 



562 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator Potter. I have no questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Symington ? 

Senator Symington. I have no questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dworshak. 

Senator Dworshak. I have no questions. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch ? 

Mr. Welch. I have no questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy, or Mr. Cohn or Mr. Carr ? 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Stevens, to get back to something we were talking 
about yesterday, did you on November 24 send John Adams to New 
York to talk to me and to Senator McCarthy, and ask whether or not 
Senator McCarthy would agree not to make a public issue if you 
relieved General Lawton of his command at Fort Monmouth? 

Secretary Stevens. November 24, wasn't that the date that your 
public hearing started on Fort Monmouth ? 

Mr. CoHN. That is the exact date, sir. 

Secretary Stevens. I know ; I think that I know John Adams can 
testify to it, but I think he went up there for that hearing and that 
was my recollection. 

Mr. CoHN. And sir, maybe you didn't understand me, my question 
to you was, if I may : Did Mr. Adams come to New York carrying a 
message from you to Senator McCarthy, asking an assurance from 
Senator McCarthy that he would not make a public issue and charge 
reprisal for cooperation if you were to relieve General Lawton of his 
command at Fort Monmouth on that day or the next day ? 

Secretary Stevens. As I have testified frequently, on this witness 
chair, Mr. Cohn, I had under consideration the question of the com- 
manding general at Fort Monmouth, and I again say I dislike very 
much to go into the personal situation of a fine professional soldier. 

I had been concerned about some statements that were reported to 
me, and I also, as I testified yesterday morning, had wanted to be sure 
that all of our commanding officers, including General Lawton, used 
the maximum possible judgment with respect to any suspensions they 
made to the end that we would not work an injustice on an innocent 
person. 

Mr, CoHN. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Jenkins, maybe you can give me a 
little help here. I was trying to ask the Secretary whether he sent 
Mr. Adams to New York with a message, asking a promise of silence 
by Senator McCarthy. 

Mr. Jenkins. May I make a sugegstion to you, sir, that if you will 
give Mr. Cohn a direct answer, and I must say that you did not 
answer his question. 

Secretary Stevens. 1 am sorry. 

Mr. Jenkins. I am sure you will be taken off the witness stand much 
sooner than you otherwise would. 

Secretary Stevens. I am sorry, sir, I gave you the background of 
the situation because I wanted people to understand why it was that 
we wanted Senator McCarthy to know that this matter was under 
consideration, of whether or not there might be a change at Fort 
Monmouth. I was working very closely with Senator McCarthy and 
the committee, cooperating all ^own the line, and I thought a thing 
as important as that he ought to know. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 563 

Mr. Jenkins. May I suggest that the reporter read the question, to 
the Secretary, and that you request the Secretary to answer the ques- 
tion directly. 

, Senator Mundt. The reporter will read the question to which it 
appears there has not been an answer. 

(Whereupon, the question referred to was read by the reporter as 
above recorded.) 

Secretary Stearns. No ; I did not send Adams to New York for that 
purpose. 

Senator Mundt. I do not believe the Secretary had finished his an- 
swer, had you? 

Secretary Ste\'ens, No, sir. 

Senator Mundt. You may continue. 

Secretary Stevens. I was going to say my recollection is that I tele- 
phoned Mr. Adams in New York and asked him to advise Senator 
McCarthy that I had this matter under consideration. 

Is that a responsive answer, Mr. Jenkins? 

Mr. Jenkins. A partial response, but not entirely. 

Secretary Stevens. I am really trying to do it the way it should 
be done. 

Mr. Jenkins. Then tlie further question was whether or not you 
directed Mr. Adams to ask Sena'tor McCarthy whether or not he. 
Senator JMcCarthy, would take reprisals against you if you relieved 
Lawton of his command at Fort Monmouth. 

Secretary Stevens. No, sir. I wanted to inform Senator Mc- 
Carthy of what I was giving consideration to. 

Senator ]\Iundt. Mr. Colin ? 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Secretary, what I was trying to get was this: Did 
you ask Mr. Adams to go to Senator McCarthy and get for you an 
assurance from Senator McCarthy that Senator McCarthy would not 
make a public issue of the relieving of General Lawton of his com- 
mand ? 

Secretary Ste\t3ns. I asked him to inform Senator McCarthy of 
the fact that I had this matter under consideration. 

Mr. Jenkins. I must hold that is not a direct answer. You can 
answer that, Mr. Secretary, "Yes" or "No" and then make such expla- 
nation as you see fit; whether or not Senator McCarthy Avould make 
a public issue of your relieving General Lawton of his command by 
reason of General Lawton's having cooperated with the committee. 
Did you want to know whether or not Senator McCarthy would make 
a public issue of that if you relieved General Lawton from Fort 
Monmouth ? 

Secretary Stevens. I wanted Senator McCarthy to have the infor- 
mation. I wanted John Adams to find out how he felt about it. 

Mr. Jenkins. I must hold that is not a direct answer. The ques- 
tion is, Did you want assurances from Senator McCarthy that he 
would not make a public issue of it if you relieved General Lawton 
of his command ? 

Secretary Stevens. I have no recollection of that at all, sir. 

jNIr. CoHN. Maybe, Mr. Secretary 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Colin. 

Mr. CoHN. Thank you, sir. 

Possibly I can refresh your recollection. Did Mr. Adams call you 
at approximately 2 p. m., on the afternoon of November 25 from a 



564 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

room adjoining the hearing room at the United States courthouse in 
the presence of Senator McCarthy to tell you that he had bad news 
for you in that Senator McCarthy would not agree to silence if you 
relieved General Lawton of his command at Fort Monmouth ? 

Secretary Stevens. I do not remember that exactly. I can look it 
up and see. I know that I called Mr. Cohn — I called Mr. Adams up 
there once myself and he called me back. 

Mr. CoHN. I am sorry. 

Secretary Stevens. He called me back and said, as I recall it, that 
he had informed Senator McCarthy, who was distressed about it, 
because he felt that General Lawton was cooperating fully with the 
committee, and he therefore would like to have General Lawton 
continue on. 

Mr. CoHN. Is one of the things concerning which you demanded a 
"written explanation of General Lawton on November 25 praise by him 
of Senator McCarthy ? 

Secretary Ste^^ns. No, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. Maybe I can rephrase that, Mr. Secretary. 

Did General Lawton submit to you through General Back a memo- 
randum purporting to give his explanation of various matters which 
he had said which you thought he.should not have said ? 

Secretary Stevens. He prepared a memorandum at my request out- 
lining the substance of some statements he had made at Fort Mon- 
mouth, the substance of which I was interested in knowing about. 

Mr. CoHN. Prior to asking for that memorandum, you had indi- 
cated to General Back that you were thoroughly displeased with 
General Lawton and his judgment and the statements he had made, 
had you not ? 

Secretary Stevens. No, I did not say I was thoroughly displeased. 
I simply alerted General Back to the fact that I was giving the matter 
some thought and I would like him to do likewise. 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Secretary, does not paragraph 9 of the memorandum 
that General Lawton was required to submit contain an explanation 
by him as to a compliment which he had paid to Senator McCarthy ? 

Secretary Ste\'ens. I think there is something in there about it. I 
do not remember the paragraph number. 

Mr. CoHN. My next question is this: Did you not refuse to see 
General Lawton when he was in your waiting room on the after- 
noon 

Secretary Stevens. I did not see him, but I do not refuse to see 
people if I can possibly work them in. But I have a pretty heavy 
schedule over there and cannot see everybody that would like to see me. 

Mr. CoHN. Maybe I did not make myself clear, Mr. Stevens. On 
the afternoon of November 25, did General Back bring General Lawton 
to your outer office? 

Secretary Stevens. I think he did. 

Mr. CoHN. Did General Back enter your office? 

Secretary Stevens. I think he did. 

Mr. CoHN. Did he ask you if you would see General Lawton? 

Secretary Stevens. I do not think he asked me. I think he told 
me General Lawton was out there, and did I want to see him. 

Mr. Cohn. Did you see General Lawton to get his explanation of 
what he had said ? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 565 

Secretary Stevthns. No, because I had this memorandum coming in, 
and that was the information I wanted about the speeches that he had 
made on the post. 

Mr, CoHN. Was this tlie same afternoon that Mr. Adams telephoned 
you and told you that Senator McCarthy would not agree to remain 
silent if a reprisal was taken against General Lawton ? 

Secretary Stevens. I do not remember whether that was in the 
morning or the afternoon, but I think it was the same day. 

Mr. CoiiN. It was all around the same time, is that right, sir? 

Secretar}^ Stevt-ns. The same day, I think. 

Mr. CoHN. I see. I want to leave that for a minute, if I might, 
Mr. Secretary, and come to this: Allegation on the Adams- Stevens 
allegation, whatever it might be called, No. 12 of improper means used 
to get preferential treatment for Private Schine, you list a meeting 
that took place in your oflice on the afternoon of November 16 in 
wliich you say that Mr. Carr and I made threats to you. That is listed 
as allegation No. 12 of the improper means to get preferential treat- 
ment for Private Scliine. I wonder if you could tell the committee 
whether or not Private Schine's name was mentioned on that 
afternoon. 

Secretary Stevens. I do not recall, Mr. Cohn, at this moment that 
Schine was, but I would like to think about it. 

IVIr. CoiTN. I see. 

Mr. Chairman, I have no more objection to the Secretary's trying to 
think about anything he might have said or know about me than I 
do to his trying to think about anything he said about Mr. Carr. I 
wonder this, though : Could you now tell us, having listed this very 
serious allegation against me, whether or not you can recall my saying 
anything alDout Private Schine to you on that afternoon? 

Secretary Stevens. No, but I can remember some other things you 
said. 

Mr. CoHN. Were they with reference to Private Schine, sir? 

Secretary Stevens. They were with reference to my press confer- 
ence and also to the hearings. 

Mr. CoHN. First of all, this is listed as allegation No. 12 of "Use of 
improper means to get preferential treatment for Pvt. G. David 
Schine." I was wondering if you want to tell the committee whether 
or not I used any improper means, or Mr. Carr did, on that afternoon 
to get preferential treatment for Private Schine. 

Secretary STEi'ENS. Well, Mr. Cohn, I only know how to answer 
these questions by using a few words. It is not an agreement to pro- 
long or evade or anything else, but I can give you my general feeling 
about that meeting if you want me to. 

Mr. CoHN. That would be fine, and I wonder first if we could do 
this : Would you agree with me, sir, that Mr. John Adams at your 
request telephoned me at my home on Sunday afternoon, November 15, 
and asked me to come to Washington and be in your office the next 
morning, and stated that if I could not be there you and he would 
fly to New York to see me that Sunday night ? 

Secretary Stevens. John Adams will have to testify about that. 
I do not recall. 

Mr. CoHx. I just wondered if you could tell us whether or not ^Nfr. 
Adams called me, carrying a message from you 

Secretary Stevens. I cannot tell you. 



566 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr. CoHN. Asking me to be present in your office the next after- 
noon to discuss a matter with you concerning which you were very 
much distressed, whether or not you had Mr. Adams tell me at your 
request that if I could not be there, the matter was of such urgency 
to you that you and he would fly up to New York to see me that very 
same Sunday night. 

Secretary Stevens. I have no knowledge of that. I do not remem- 
ber anything about that. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Cohn, your time has expired. 

Mr. Jenkins? 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Secretary, as I understand it, you had under con- 
sideration relieving General Lawton prior to November 24, for rea- 
sons that you have stated, is that correct ? 

Secretary Ste\'ens. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And as I further understand it, you have the author- 
ity as Secretary of the Army to relieve a general of his command if 
in your discretion you think it proper ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And without the advice or consent of any other 
person ? 

Secretary Stevens. Well, that isn't the way it would work, in prac- 
tice, but I could do it. 

Mr. Jenkins. Certainly without the advice and consent of Senator 
McCarthy? 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Mr. Jenkins. Now, Mr. Stevens, you were asked whether or not 
Mr. Adams went to New York City on November 24, and was sent 
there by you, and whether or not his mission was to talk to Senator 
McCarthy and find out whether or not Senator McCarthy would 
make a public issue of it if you relieved General Lawton of his 
command. 

As I understood your answer, you said that you did not remember 
it, is that right, Mr. Secretary ? 

Secretary Stevens. My recollection is that Mr. Adams went to 
New York to attend the public hearings of the Fort Monmouth hear- 
ings by this committee, and that I telephoned him while he was there 
and told him that I was giving thought to this matter, and asked 
him to take it up with Senator McCarthy and advise him about it. 

Mr. Jenkins. All right, you called him in New York, on long dis- 
tance, and told him to tell Senator McCarthy that you were giving 
thought to relieving General Lawton and to find out how Senator 
McCarthy felt about it. 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir ; that is right. 

Mr. Jenkins. Is that right ? 

Secretary Stevens. I wanted to inform him absolutely and know 
what his reaction was. 

Mr. Jenkins. Why is that a matter of any concern to you, Mr. 
Secretary 

Secretary Stevens. Because 

Mr. Jenkins. What he felt about it? You said you made the 
decisions without consulting and advising him, and it was charged 
here that you were going to relieve General Lawton from his command 
because he had cooperated with the McCarthy committee. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 567 

Now, you see the implications of this, and the importance of it, 
and the committee wants to know do you now say that you telephoned 
Mr. Adams and told him to tell Senator McCarthy that you had 
under consideration relieving General Lawton, and that you wanted 
Senator McCarthy advised about it to get his reaction. If that right ? 

Secretary Stevens. That is the way it was. 

Mr. elENKiNS. Why was that, Mr. Secretary ? 

Secretary Stevens. Wholly on the basis of the cooperation with 
Senator McCarthy and this committee which I have testified to at 
length, and it Avas another evidence of my desire not to take any 
action that could be considered noncooperative by Senator McCarthy. 
And I think if I had taken the arbitrary action of relieving General 
Lawton, that Senator McCarthy would have considered that as an 
act of noncooperation by the Army with this committee, and I didn't 
want to do that. 

Mr. Jenkins. In other words, you felt that, or you understood that 
General Lawton had been cooperating with the McCarthy commit- 
tee, didn't you? 

Secretary Stevens. Oh, yes, sir, and so had I. 

Mr. Jenkins. In the investigation of these subversives. 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Mr. Jenkins. And the dismissal or suspension of them? 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Mr. Jenkins. And you knew that General Lawton himself had 
suspended a number on his own volition, since about October 1, 
didn't you ? 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Mr. Jenkins. And, Mr. Secretary, you say that you did not want 
to relieve General Lawton without first learning of what sort of a 
reaction it would bring from Senator McCarthy and with the fear, 
shall we say, that he might charge that you had done it as a reprisal, 
is that right, because of Lawton's cooperation with him, McCarthy; 
is that it? 

Secretary Stevens. May I have that recorder read that please, Mr, 
Jenkins ? 

Senator Mundt. Eead the question. 

(Whereupon, the question referred to was read by the reporter, as 
recorded above. ) 

Secretary Stevens. I don't know anything about reprisal, Mr. 
Jenkins. 

Mr. Jenkins. Let me ask you this question. You had relieved 
other generals, I take it, of their command from time to time, had you 
not? 

Secretary Stevens. No, sir ; I had not. 

Mr. Jenkins. He was the only one under consideration ? 

Secretary Stevens. At that time, yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You had never consulted Senator McCarthy about 
any other change, promotion, demotion, switching, or changing or 
anything of the kind, had you, of the personnel of the Army? 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Mr. Jenkins. Now, it might appear to this committee, and I don't 
know how their minds are running, that you did not want or per- 
haps was afraid to relieve General Lawton without first finding out 
whether or not he would make an issue of it, and charge you with 



568 SPECIAL DSrVESTIliATION 

having done it as a reprisal against General Lawton by reason of 
his cooperation with McCarthy, Senator McCarthy. 

Now, Mr. Secretary, the committee, I am sure, wants to know 
whether or not the purpose of your long distance call to Mr. Adams 
was to get him to ascertain whether or not Senator McCarthy would 
make an issue of it. Now, w\as it or not ? 

Secretary Ste\t:ns. My purpose 

Mr. Jenkins. I believe you can answer it yes or no. 

Secretary Stevens. The purpose of my call was to inform Senator 
McCarthy that I had this under consideration. 

Mr. Jenkins. Well, why inform Senator McCarthy ? He had noth- 
ing to do with it. 

Secretary Stevens. To inform him because of my policy of constant 
and continued cooperation with the committees of the Congress, and 
with your permission, I would like to read just 5 lines from a report 
of this committee, just 2 weeks after the date we are talking about, 
published public hearing on Fort Monmouth, and this statement by 
the chairman of this committee : 

The Chaikman. We will have to call all of the memberB of the Board and put 
them under oath, and may I say, John — 

referring to Mr. Adams — 

and this is not a criticism of you, I think that you have tried to cooperate with 
this committee fully, and I think Mr. Stevens has. 

That is an official report of this committee. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Secretary, now let us keep to the issues. This 
serious charge is made against you by the McCarthy staff that by rea- 
son of General Lawton's cooperation with you or his attitude toward 
subversives you were about to relieve him of his command at Fort 
Monmouth with the implication of their charge is that you were afraid 
to do so until you first ascertained whether or not Senator McCarthy 
would make it a public issue. 

Now, that is the charge against you. 

Secretary Stevens. I was not afraid to do so. 

Mr. Jenkins. I didn't ask you that question ; I am pinpointing the 
charge. 

You do say that you called Mr. Adams and told him to tell Senator 
McCarthy that you had under consideration relieving General Lawton ; 
that is correct, isn't it ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And I believe you say that you told Mr. Adams to 
get Senator McCarthy's reaction to that, am I correct in that? 

Secretary Stevens. To inform him, that is right. 

Mr. Jenkins. You wanted to know how Senator McCarthy would 
feel 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Mr. Jenkins. If you relieved General Lawton ? 

Secretary Stevens. That is correct. 

Mr. Jenkins. That is correct, isn't it ? 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Mr. Jenkins. Now, I think we are entitled to a "yes" or "no" answer 
on this. Did you tell Mr. Adams to convey to Senator McCarthy the 
fact that you were going to relieve him if he. Senator McCarthy, would 
not make a public issue of it? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 569 

Secretary Stevens. I don't recall that, Mr. Jenkins. 

Mr. Jenkins. Now, Mr. Secretary, I was criticized very severely. 
And I don't mind confessing it here in public, maybe I deserved it. 
If I do, I now offer a public apology for pressing this private yester- 
day on a yes or no answer. You are the Secretary of the Army. And 
I think this committee is entitled — that is a tremendously important 
issue in this. And you have known about these charges for some time. 

I am not arguing with you. You have had some 1 or 2 or 3 days rest. 
Now you tell this committee that on that tremendously vital issue, 
tliat is, whether or not you. told Mr. Adams to tell Senator McCarthy 
that you were going to relieve this general. General Lawton, if he 
would not make a public issue of it, your answer today is "I don't 
remember." 

Now, Mr. Secretary, you ought to explain why you don't remember 
that. 

Secretary Stevens. My answer to that is "No, but." 

Mr. Jenkins. I beg your pardon ? 

Secretary Stevens. My answer to your question is "No, but." 

Mr. Jenkins. "No, but"? 

Secretary Stevens. You say you want "yes" or "no," and I say, 
"No, but we understand — — " 

Mr. Jenkins. Your previous answer was that you didn't remember, 
wasn't it ? That is correct, isn't it ? I will have him read it. 

Secretary Stevens. All right, let us read it. 

Mr. Jenkins. Eead the question and read the answer. 

Senator Mundt. Will the reporter go back to the colloquy at issue, 
and read sufficiently so that we can find out what has been said by 
the witness ? 

(Whereupon, the previous question and answer were read by the 
reporter as above recorded.) 

Mr. Jenkins. All right, your answer is that you don't recall it. 

Do you mean by that that you don't remember about it ? 

Secretary Stevens. No. I am just trying to handle this "yes" or 
"no" business, Mr. Jenkins. 

Mr. Jenkins. Are you able to say positively that you did not do 
that? 

Secretary Steat^ns. On that question the way it was read, the way 
I concentrated on it while the reporter was reading it, I would say 
"No," but then I would like to offer an explanation. 

Mr. Jenkins. Very well. 

Secretary Stevens. That question says "conveyed to Senator Mc- 
Carthy the fact that I was going to relieve General Lawton." That 
was not the fact. 

Mr. Jenkins. The question goes further than that. 

Secretary Stevens. But 

Senator Mundt. You are trying to correct that one phrase, isn't 
that right? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes. That wasn't what I said. I didn't know 
whether or not I was going to relieve General Lawton, and the fact 
is I did not, and he is still the commander there, and has done a splen- 
did job. 

Mr. Jenkins. Are vou able now and do you deny now positively 
that you told Mr. Adams, your attorney, to convey the message to 
Senator McCarthy that you were going to relieve General Lawton of 



570 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

liis command of Fort Monmouth if he, Senator McCarthy, would not 
make a public issue of it ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, I deny that. 

Mr. Jenkins. You deny that and say positively it did not occur ? 

Secretary STE\rENS. That is right, but what I would like to make 
clear, if I haven't already, is that I told Mr. Adams I would like Sen- 
ator McCarthy to be informed about this, that I was cooperating with 
his committee and I didn't want to do anything that was noncoopera- 
tive, and I would like to know what Senator McCarthy's reaction was. 

Mr. Jenkens. Mr. Secretary, this one last question : In view of the 
fact that you, and you alone, were charged with the responsibility of 
relieving the general, did you, and you alone, in view of his qualifi- 
cations, the character of the work he was doing, feel that Senator 
McCarthy was in no position whatever, being in the legislative branch 
of the Government, to pass on the qualities or fitness of General LaAv- 
ton to preside over the destinies of Fort Monmouth, and in view of 
the fact that you say now that you called ]Mr. Adams in New York 
City and told him to tell Senator McCarthy that you were considering 
relieving General Lawton of that command, and, as I remember, that 
you wanted the Senator's reaction to that — is it not a fact, IMr. Secre- 
tary, that you did not — wowld not relieve General Lawton of that 
command without first either getting Senator ^McCarthy's consent to 
do so or his reactions that would occur if you did do so ? 

Secretary Stevens. That, if I may say so, Mr. Jenkins, is a rather 
complicated question, but I will try to answer it. 

Mr. Jenkins. There is no trick to it. 

Secretary Stevens. I know there is no trick to it. I realize tliat, 
sir. If I had come to the conclusion that General Lawton should be 
relieved, I would have done so. But I thought it was appropriate, 
when I started thinking about it seriously, to advise Senator McCar- 
thy, because I wanted to follow my policy of cooperation here, and I 
did not want this committee to feel that I was acting in a nonco- 
operative manner. 

Mr. Jenkins. This other question : Would you have construed the 
removal of General Lawton from the command of Fort Monmouth 
as an act of disloyalty to Senator McCarthy or his committee ? 

Secretary Stevens. No, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Or as an act that would be construed as being an 
attitude of noncooperation with the committee on your part ? 

Secretary Stevens. I think it could have been considered as a non- 
cooperative thing, yes, because I know that Senator McCarthy and 
his staff thought highly of the cooperation from General Lawton, and 
it seemed to me, therefore, appropriate, since they were working very 
closely with that installation, that he ought to know of any major 
change lil^e that that I might have in mind. 

Mr. Jenkins. I take it that during the period of your consideration 
of the fate of General Lawton at Fort Monmouth, you also considered 
his successor ? 

Secretary Stea'ens. No, sir, I didn't. 

Mr. Jenkins. Eegardless of who his successor would have been, 
he would have been a man who would have cooperated with Senator 
McCarthy and his staff just like General Lawton did? 

Secretary Stevens. That is correct. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 571 

Mr. Jexkins. In Avliicli instance Senator McCarthy would have had 
no cause to complain or make an issue of it. That is right, is it not ? 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. But General Lawton had al- 
ready demonstrated his cooperation, and it seemed to me that Senator 
McCarthy ^yould like to know about that if I were going to make a 
change. 

IMr. Jenkins. Well, I take it that the message you got back from 
Mr. Adams was that Senator McCarthy would have construed it as a 
rejnisal against General Lawton, is that correct? 

Secretary Stevens. I do not know about reprisal, but I certainly got 
the word back that Senator McCarthy would not be pleased if Law- 
ton were relieved. 

Mr. Jenkins. That he would not be pleased if Lawton were re- 
lieved ? 

Secretary Ste\t3NS. That is right . 

Mr. Jenkins. Who conveyed that message to you ? 

Secretary STE\Ti:NS. Mr. Adams, as I recall it. 

Mr. Jenkins. You did not relieve General Lawton thereafter? 

Secretary Stevens. I did not then and haven't since, and I have no 
intention of it. 

Mr. Jenkins. Was it because of the word you got from Mr. Adams 
that Senator McCarthy would not stand for it or would be displeased ? 

Secretary Stevens. No, sir ; it was not. 

Mr. Jenkins. Further investigation revealed, then, that General 
Lawton was the right man to continue there, and that is the only rea- 
son you continued him ; and the fact that it did not meet with the ap- 
proval of Senator McCarthy had nothing to do Avith it? 

Secretary Stevens. Absolutely not. I settled it on the merits. 

Mr. Jenkins. That is all. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch, our watchdog of the time, has been 
signaling to the chairman. He asked me at the lunch hour — he 
wanted to go to Boston this afternoon. I believe, therefore, that we 
might as well adjourn at this point until 10 : 30 Monday morning. 
The Chair would like to have an executive meeting of the committee 
in his office at 5 o'clock. 

(Whereupon, at 4:40 p. m., a recess was taken until 10:30 a. m. 
Monday, May 3, 1954.) 



INDEX 



Page 
Adams, John G 548, 552, 553, 557, 558, 5G2-571 

Adams-Stevens allegation 565 

Air Corps (United States) 539, 551, 552, 554 

Air Corps laboratory 539 

Allegation No. 12 ("Use of improper means to get preferential treatment 

for G. David Schine") 565 

Alsops 558 

Army (United States) 539, 547, 551, 552, 557-559, 566, 567 

Army laboratory 539 

Assistant Chief of Staff 557 

Back, General 564 

Bradley, Colonel 540, 552, 555, 556 

Butler, Senator 550 

Cabinet member 544 

Carr, Francis P 539, 552-557, 562, 565 

Chief of Information 557 

Chief of Staff 557 

Cohn, Roy M 535-537, 539, 540, 542, 544, 548, 549, 555-557, 562-566 

Communist subversive squad (New York) 539 

Communists 539, 559 

Department of the Army 539, 547, 551, 552, 557-559, 566-567 

Dirksen, Senator 561 

Dworshak, Senator 550 

Eisenhower, Mrs 534 

Espionage Act 559 

Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) 539, 541 

Federal Government 570 

Fort Mommouth 558-560, 562-564, 566, 568, 570 

Frear, Senator 533 

Frear, Mrs. Allen 533 

G-2 (Intelligence, Army) 557 

Government of the United States 570 

Hill (Capitol Hill) 546 

Intelligence, United States Army (G-2) 55T 

Japan 552 

Juliana, James N 533 

Testimony of 534-551 

Lang, Staff Sergeant 552 

Lawton, General 559, 562-564, 566-571 

Manchester, S. Sgt. Herbert Richard, testimony of 551-556 

Maner, Mr 549 

McCarthy, Senator Joe 534-539, 542, 543, 545-551, 556-571 

McCarthy committee 566 

McGuire Air Force Base 552, 554 

Military Establishment 545 

Moe, Warrant OflBcer 554 

Mudgett, General 557 

New York City 535, 536, 539, 562, 563, 565, 566, 570 

New York Times 558 

Pearsons 558 

Pentagon 558, 559 

Potter, Senator 561 

President of the United States 534, 559 

Presidential directives 559 

Program committee (Senate wives) 533-534 



n INDEX 

Pasre 

Ridgway, General 557 

Rules committee 534 

Scliine, G. David 535-538, 540-544, 547, 548, 552, 553, 555, 556, 565 

Secretary of the Army 534, 536-538, 540-542, 544-548, 550-571 

Senate ladies 533 

Senate Ladies' Club 533 

Senate of the United States 534 

Senate wives (program committee) 533-534 

Stevens, Robert T 534, 536-538, 540-542, 544-548, 550-555 

Testimony of 556-571 

Suriue, Don 541, 546, 547, 549, 551 

Trudeau, General 557 

United States Air Corps 539, 551, 552, 554 

United States Army 539, 547, 551, 552, 557-559, 566, 567 

United States Army Intelligence (G-2) 557 

United States Government 570 

United States President 534, 559 

United States Senate 534 

"Use of improper means to get preferential treatment for Pvt. G. David 

Schine" (allegation No. 12) 565 

Warrant Officer Moe 554 

Washington, D. C 565 

o 



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