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SPECIAL SENATE INVESTIGATION ON CHARGES
AND COUNTERCHARGES INVOLVING: SECRE-
TARY OF THE ARMY ROBERT T. STEVENS, JOHN
G. ADAMS, H. STRUVE IIENSEL AND SENATOR
JOE McCarthy, roy m. cohn, and
FRANCIS p. CARR
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SPECIAL SUBCOMMITTEE ON
INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON
GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
UNITED STATES SENATE
EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
PURSUANT TO
S. Res. 189
PART 17
MAY 4, 1954
Printed for the uf3e of the Committee on Government Operations
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
46620° WASHINGTON : 1954
Boston PubL-c Library
Superintendent of Documents
SEP 8 -1954
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
JOSEPH R. MCCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas
MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Maine HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, Minnesota
HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington
EVERETT MCKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN F. KENNEDY. Massachusetts
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan ALTON A. LENNON, North Carolina
Richard J. O'Melia, General Counsel
Walter L. Reynolds, Chief Clerk
Special Subcommittee on Investigations
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota, Chairman
EVERETT MCKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington
HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri
Ray H. Jenkins, Chief Counsel
Thomas R. Pkewitt, Assistatit Counsel
Robert A. Collier, Assistant Counsel
SoLis HoRwiTZ, Assistant Counsel
Charles A. Maner, Secretary
n
CONTENTS
Index .......__ ^^^\
Testimony of Stevens, Hon. Robert T., Secretary, Department" of ' the
Army _ _ __ __._ qqq
EXHIBITS
12 (a) Letter from Senator Joseph McCarthy, chairman, Senate duce°d Appears
Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, to Hon on page on page
Robert T. Stevens, March 15, 1954 667 *
(b) Letter from Senator Joseph McCarthy, chairman, Senate
Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, to Hon.
Robert T. Stevens, March 30, 1954 667 *
(c) Telegram from Senator Joseph McCarthy, chairman, Senate
Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, to Hon.
Robert T. Stevens, April 12, 1954 667 *
(d) Letter from Hon. Robert T. Stevens, Secretary, Department
of the Army, to Senator Joseph McCarthy, April 13, 1954. 667 667
*May be found in the files of the subcommittee.
in
SPECIAL SENATE INVESTIGATION ON CHARGES AND
COUNTEECHARGES INVOLVING: SECRETARY OF THE
ARMY ROBERT T. STEVENS, JOHN G. ADAMS, H. STRUVE
HENSEL AND SENATOR JOE McCARTHY, ROY M. COHN,
AND FRANCIS P. CARR
TUESDAY, MAY 4, 1954
United States Senate,
Special Subcommittee on Investigations of the
Committee on Government Operations,
Washington, D. C.
The subcommittee met at 10 : 50 a. m., pursuant to recess, in the
caucus room of the Senate Office Building, Senator Karl E. ISIundt,
chairman, presiding.
Present: Senator Karl E. Mundt, Republican, South Dakota; Sen-
ator Everett JMcKinley Dirksen, Republican, Illinois; Senator Charles
E. Potter, Republican, Michigan ; Senator Henry C. D^Yorshak, Re-
publican, Idaho; Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas;
Senator Henry M. Jackson, Democrat, Washington; and Senator
Stuart Symington, Democrat, Missouri.
Also present: Ray H. Jenkins, chief counsel to the subcommittee;
Thomas R. Prewitt, assistant counsel ; and Ruth Y. Watt, chief clerk.
Principal participants : Senator Joseph R. JNIcCarthy, a United
States Senator from the State of Wisconsin; Roy M. Cohn, chief
counsel to the subcommittee; Francis P. Carr, executive director of
the subcommittee; Hon. Robert T. Stevens, Secretary of the Army;
John G. Adams, counselor to the Army; H. Struve Hensel, Assistant
Secretary of Defense ; Joseph N. Welch, special counsel for the Army ;
James D. St. Clair, special counsel for the Army; and Frederick P.
Bryan, counsel to H. Struve Hensel, Assistant Secretary of Defense.
Senator ]\Iundt. The committee will please come to order.
The Chair would like to start with his opening salute to our guests in
the audience, and advise them that they are welcome and to remind
those that have not heard the chairman make the statement previously
that they are here as the guests of the committee, with the admonition
that tliey must conform with the committee rule, which holds that
there shall be no manifestations of approval or disapproval of any
kind at any time from the audience. And that the officers have been
reminded and authorized that if we have people in the audience who
violate that rule they shall be politely escorted from the room, so
that those on the outside waiting to get in will have an opportunity to
replace them.
651
652 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Yesterday I think tliere was not one sino;le deviation from the rule,
and I hope that that will be true today, tomorrow, and the next day, so
long as the hearings continue.
The committee will please come to order.
Senator Dirksen.
Senator Dirksen. Mr. Chairman, I feel in view of the suggestion
I made yesterday that some amplified explanation is necessary to the
committee, and to the public, as to what has transpired since that
time.
I am not insensible of the fact that the role of the peacemaker is
never a happy one, and yet I have been impelled by a constriction
that where the prestige of the Senate is involved, and where the
public interest is involved, and where there are so many tensions in
the air at the present time, and where Army morale is involved, to do
whatever is reasonable and honorably possible in order to shorten
these hearings, consonant, of course, with the development of the
truth and of the facts.
It was impelled by that feeling, Mr. Chairman, that I made the
suggestion yesterday that perhaps we should have a meeting to be
attended by members of the committee and by counsel for the prin-
cipals, for the purpose of exploring, as reasonable and prudent peo])le
should do, some possibility of shortening these hearings if it could be
contrived.
It was in pursuance of that suggestion that we met last night in the
regular committee room 357, and what I said was founded, I think,
upon statements made both publicly and privately. In the first place,
1 thought I heard counsel correctly yesterday, as recorded on page
1370 of the hearings.
Senator Mundt. Which counsel ? We have four counsels.
Senator Dirksen. I should particularize and say Mr. Welch, to this
effect.^ and I read now from the hearings :
I v/ould say this : That if the hearings take the course that yon suggest, first
the Secretary and then the Senatoi", I would either be content to let the case
vest on these two witnesses, although that would give us a somewhat abbreviated
hearing, or at most we wish to call but two more.
Now, w^ith that suggestion publicly made, and some suggestions pri-
vately njade, Mr. Chairman, I had hoped first that perhaps the number
of principals could be reduced. And so" in the course of our conversa-
tions last night and this morning, we did explore this question of
whether or not the charges against Mr. Hensel might be withdrawn,
probably to state it accurately withdrawn without prejudice on either
side, and I for one believe that under parliamentary procedure the
Senator from Wisconsin if he so desires is fully within his rights in
Avithdrawing those charges, so that at least what is before us would
be reduced by one principal and whatever testimony that would
require.
Secondly, it occurred to me that since Secretary Stevens has been
on the stand now for nearly 8 days, so much of the background has
already been explored in direct examination and cross-examination,
that probably if the Senator from Wisconsin took the stand and sub-
mitted to examination and cross-examination, that it wouldn't be nec-
essary to call subordinate witnesses or imjjlementing witnesses, and
thereby we could very substantially abbreviate these hearings.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 653
Now, that was the sugo-estion that I had in mind, and it was the su<^-
gestion that I made. But I am afraid on the basis of what must be
reported this morning, that it has not been altogether fruitful
But I am going to suggest, openly now, Mr. Chairman, that the Sen-
ator from Wisconsin is entirely within his rights if he wanted to with-
draw tliose charges, and that I think he could do so without making
any amplifying explanation of any kind so that if they were to be
resumed or reinstated, or considered in executive session sometime
later, tliat is a matter for the committee to decide. But he is entirely
within his rights if he wanted to withdraw those charges.
Secondly, it seems to me that it would be in the interest of expedition
and there would be no forfeiture of truth and there would be no for-
feiture of the facts in the case if the Senator then took the stand, and
the conmiittee undertook to conclude that with the presentation of the
testimony by Senator McCarthy, the hearing might then very well
come to an end. It wouldn't be necessary for the committee to hear
the testiinony of other witnesses who might otherwise be summoned.
Senator McCarthy. I assume you were directing a question to me.
Senator Mundt. The Chair has agreed with members of the com-
mittee and with counsel for all sides that because of the efforts which
have been made to expedite the hearings through arbitration and
because of the fact that no decision has been arrived at, that before the
hearing begins he feels that any one of the committee members or
any one of the counsel who cares to express himself on this subject
should have the right to do so openly, so that we are proceeding with-
out the rules of order and procedure obtaining at the moment.
He will recognize, for the purposes stated, those who address the
Chair.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy, with that understanding, you
may proceed.
Senator JMcCartht. I gather Senator Dirksen was directing a
question toward me. May I say, Mr. Chairman, if the proceedings
continue to the end, the Hensel matter I think will be a very important
element in the case insofar as motive is concerned. However, if I
may discuss what happened in executive session last night when I
understood that Mr. Welch had offered both publicly on the stand
and privately that the hearings would be terminated if we examined
Stevens and. McCarthy, I agreed that that be done, that I take the
stand any time, and that we could separate the Hensel case from
this case, not on the ground that the charges are either true or untrue,
but on the ground that that matter can be handled as a separate matter
if the committee votes to conduct that investigation.
If Mr. Hensel feels, in view of the charges, that this matter should
be aired in public, then as chairman of the subcommittee, which I
would resume to complete this, I would recommend, as I say, if
I^Ir. Hensel wants it, that that be given first priority.
I want to make it very clear, however, that if the charges against
Mr. Hensel are withdrawn, it is only because I am separating it from
this case and making it a separate case only because I want to live up
to the agreement that I thought we had made last night, and I would
be glad to do that — just one other word, Mr. Chairman.
654 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
If, however, we are not to terminate the hearings with the testimony
of Mr. Stevens and Senator McCarthy, then of course I obviously
could not remove the Hensel matter from this case.
Mr. Bryan". Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Bryan.
Mr. Bryan. With respect to the charges against Mr. Hensel, it is
his position quite plainly that there is nothing to those charges and
that they are in any event entirely collateral to the matters before this
committee. However, he feels very strongly that a withdrawal of
those charges without a statement by Senator McCarthy that he was
in error in bringing them is entirely unacceptable to him.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, let me make it clear that the
Senator from Wisconsin will under no circumstances say he was in
error because he was not in error. All I would do in this case is to
separate those charges, withdraw them for the purpose of presenting
them to the subcommittee as a separate case. So if the committee
decides to end the testimony with McCarthy and Stevens, it can do so,
and I will withdraw them if the committee decides to vote to end the
hearings with the testimony of Stevens and McCarthy — period.
Senator Mundt. So that all of the facts may be out on the table
on that point, I think it should be stated that in our discussion in
executive session there was general agreement, perhaps unanimous
agreement, I am not sure, but certainly general agreement among
all parties concerned that the phase of the Hensel case that deals
with his guilt or innocence in connection with some operations in a
shipping concern taking place in 1942, 1 believe it was
Mr. Jenkins. 1944.
Senator Mundt. Yes, 1944. Are not properly before this commit-
tee, and that we would engage ourselves interminably if we would
have a separate investigation as part of this one, as to his guilt or
innocence; that the part that the Hensel case plays, if any, is one
dealing with motive, and I think there was general agreement among
all concerned that this committee would not undertake under any cir-
cumstances to conduct the full-scale investigation of the transactions
in 1944 to determine whether or not there was guilt or innocence in that
connection.
I believe that the Chair should also state two other things: That
as he understood the processes of negotiation yesterday there was very
serious consideration given to the possibility of limiting the testimony
to Secretary Stevens and Senator McCarthy on the basis of a sug-
gestion that Mr. Welch ha 1 made on page 1370 of the record, which
motivated Senator Dirksen to come to the Chair to suggest that we
explore with all parties the possibility of carrying out that suggestion.
That after the suggestion was discussed at some length, Senator Mc-
Carthy agreed that if that could be developed satisfactorily to all
parties, and if the committee should so vote, he would ask no further
questions of Secretary Stevens, but that Senator McCarthy himself
would be sworn and take the stand this morning.
The Chair finally understands from Mr. Welch, and Mr. Welch
will correct the Chair now if he is wrong, that Mr. Welch told the
Chair that he had withdrawn that offer made on page 1370, and pre-
ferred to have the hearings go forward according to the original
schedule of adjudication calling all of the 15 or 20 or 25 witnesses
that may be involved.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 655
If the Chair is in error, Mr. Welch, 1 want you to correct me.
Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, Senator Dirksen read less than all of
the statement that appears on ])age 1370. I would like now to read it
all. It begins at the top A the page, and the speaker is Mr. Welch:
Mr. Chainuan —
This is Welch yesterday —
I happened to think that my voice is quite a small voice, and I do not run
the hearinsis and I can only make suggestions. I have been lioaid to say in this
room, and have been quoted in the press to the effect that if Senator McCarthy
takes the stand as the next witness, after Mr. Stevens, I am perfectly confident
that the minor characters will move on and off the stage with amazing swiftness.
Take, for example, the story at Fort Dix. General Ryan can tell us, I should
think, in 20 minutes, how many passes Mr. Schine had, and how many telephone
calls he made, and things of that sort. They cannot be seriously contested, as I
view it.
I would say this : That if the hearings take the course that I suggest, first the
Secretary, and then the Senator, I would either be content to let the case rest
on those two witnesses, although that would give us a somewhat abbreviated
hearing, or at most we wish to call but two more.
The names of the two more would seem to me to be a minimum :
Messrs. Cohn and Carr.
JMow, may I review, last evening, I hope within the limits of what
a gentleman may speak in respect to an executive session. There was,
as every Senator knows, a vote. May I inquire, Mr. Chairman, if I am
at liberty to state that vote?
Senator Mdndt, The vote has been reported to the press, and all
votes of our committee are reported to the press, and it was a unani-
mous vote, and you may read it.
Mr. Welch. That was that counsel confer with a view to inventing
some formula that would shorten the hearings. Mr. Jenkins will
inform you, I am sure, that tired though I was, I sought a conference
last night and Mr. Jenkins said, "I think I am as tired as you; let us
try it in the morning."
We met this morning at 9: 15 as two, I would like to think, hon- •
orable trial lawyers meet, and certainly on his side, and we conferred.
We were unable to invent a magic formula for shortening the hear-
ings and I am confident that Mr. Jenkins so reported to the committee
in my absence.
I still stand on my proposition that if the testimony of Mr. Stevens
is concluded, and Senator McCarthy is called next, that it will greatly
shorten the hearing. My good friend, Mr. Jenkins, does not share my
optimjsm. Since he does not share my optimism, I have been forced
to say that I think the American people will demand and should have
the long, hard furrow ploughed.
I began this case by saying I wanted all of the facts presented, con-
sideration over the night has led me more firmly than ever to feel that
must be done no matter how much time is required, and so Mr. Welch
stands for the two propositions he has always stood for. First, that
it will shorten the hearings if the Senator is called next — and Mr.
Jenkins, I regret to say, does not agree — and secondly; first, last, and
always, we must plough the long furrow.
Senator Mdndt. To keep the record entirely clear so we all under-
stand each other, Mr. Welch, I take it that you do withdraw that part
46620°— 54— pt. 17 2
656 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
of your siiii^estioii on pa<?e 1370 where you said that you would be
content to let the matter rest with the two witnesses.
Mr. Welcti. You can only read, Mr. Chairman, the whole state-
ment of three paragraphs, to make sense out of it. And I think it is
quite clear from the whole paragraph that I was continually suggest-
ing that the way to shorten the hearings is to call the Senator next.
I still think there will not be so many witnesses, but I can only guess
about the number.
Senator Dikksen. Mr. Chairman, if we go back to Mr. Welch's
language — and I trust I do not do violence to the context — there was
an alternative proposition made on page 1370 of the hearings by Mr.
Welch. He said in effect, "I would either be content to let the case
rest on these 2 witnesses or, at most, we would wish to call but 2
more."
Now it seems to me that that proposition was put in the alternative,
and I simply assume, Mr. Chairman, that that proposition was pre-
sented for whatever action the committee might take, and it was in
pursuance of that suggestion that I thought it wise to convene counsel
and all the principals around the table in the hope that some amicable
arrangement might be contrived.
I want to say in behalf of the Senator from Wisconsin that he sat
in on the hearings, he sat in on that meeting last night, and likewise
this morning, and I thought he approached it in perfectly good faith.
So this has been a reasonable effort, I think, to sort of focalize the
testimony, and it does occur to me, Mr. Chairman, after all the testi-
mony we have had from Secretary Stevens, that if the Senator from
Wisconsin does submit himself for direct and cross-examination, and
that we forget about the Hensel charges and let them be dropped for
the moment, which is, after all, all that the committee can require,
we could expedite the hearings and probably conclude these open
sessions before the week runs out.
Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman,
Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch.
Mr. Welch. I think a word from me is perhaps proper.
W are not in an ordinary lawsuit here, and we don't find the coun-
sel in the position in which they ordinarily stand.
Senator Mundt. Neither is the chairman in the position of a judge.
I Avish you would add that, too.
Mr. Welch. I think my position is quite clear that I want all the
facts developed. If Senator Dirksen were to say to me now, and if
1 were in the position to make a bargain on behalf of the Army or
the American people, I would say that AVelch would not be discontent
if we concluded Secretary Stevens, and then had the Senator and Mr.
Cohn and Mr. Carr. That would certainly materially shorten the
trial, and I personally would be content if we had those, plus such
witnesses as automatically have to be called to check points in their
testimony — as, for example, if I may put an example, suppose one of
those witnesses said that we had a rainy day on a certain date, and it
seemed very material to show it was a fair day, I would like to be able
to call the weatherman to show what the weather was.
Senator Mundt. May the Chair inquire, Mr. Welch, if you are now
submitting another possibility, so we have it firmly in mind. You
suggest as a new alternative now that perhaps we conclude with Mr.
Stevens and then call Senator McCarthy, Mr. Cohn, and Mr. CaiT,
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 657
and then quit. What do you propose about Mr. Adams? Did you
i*oro:et about him, or why didn't you mention him?
Mr. Welch. I don't care. Certainly it would be greatly to the
advantage of the McCarthy side of the case to give them 3 witnesses
to my 1, which I am content to do, but let me make this clear, Mr.
Chairman : I do not fancy myself in a position to bargain about this
hearing. I can only make suggestions. Mr. Jenkins' voice is much
more important than mine, and in the last analysis it must be a com-
mittee vote if there is a difference of opinion.
I would like to add, from my observation of this case, I should think
a committee vote that was too close in numbers would not leave the
American people happy.
Senator Mundt. May the Chair suggest that all our committee votes
up to now have been unanimous, and we hope to keep them that way.
We cannot be sure, but we certainly hope that that will be.
Senator Dirksen ?
Senator Dirksen. IMr. Welch, I hope I do not trespass on propriety
if I refer to the meeting we had last night in room 357. I came away
with a fixed impression that if Secretary Stevens concluded and Sena-
tor McCarthy then took the stand, that would be agreeable to you.
I thought everybody had that impression before we got through. And,
as a matter of fact, I thought the Senator from Wisconsin had more
or less agreed — informally, of course. There was no vote taken. All
of this was discussion that ran on until 7 o'clock.
If I am in error on the thing, I want to be corrected, and then, too,
perhaps I am not at liberty to say it, but I thought that was the gist
of the proposition that you had outlined to counsel for the committee.
i\Ir. Welch. Senator Dirksen, the trouble with that is that when
Mr. Jenkins and I got together this morning to talk over what had
happened, it was agreeable neither to him nor to me that the hearings
should take that course, and I apprehend it would not be agreeable
to several members of the committee.
Senator Dirksen. Well, Mr. Welch, I can only say this: I have no
right to inquire as to why there was a change of heart, because that is
not before us at the present time, if there w^as a change of heart, but
it does appear to me that it is still incumbent on counsel and on the
principals and on this committee to undertake to expedite these hear-
ings and to content themselves with the principals and wind up, if at
all possible, this week.
Senator Mundt. The Chair heard someone at the end of the table
addressing him and I am not sure if it was Mr. Bryan or Senator Mc-
Carthy.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, I have a request which may
seem unusual but I think it is very important. Secretary Stevens has
much at stake here, and I think that he should make it clear whether
or not jNIr. Welch speaks for him for this reason, if I may have the
Chair's attention — if I may have the Chair's attention — may I have
the Chair's attention?
Senator Mundt. Pardon me. sir.
Senator McCarthy. I think Mr. Stevens should make it clear
whether or not Mr. Welch speaks for him, for this reason, that one
of the charges you know made against Mr. Stevens and Mr. Adams
was that they tried to instigate these hearings to call off the investiga-
tion of Communist infiltration, and now it appears that Mr. Welch has
658 SPECIAL LNVESTIGATION
"welched" on an agreement he made, which would cut the hearings
down, so we can get back to our important work.
So, we find this morning apparently the people who instigated these
hearings are trying to prolong them, and I think Mr. Stevens should
make it very clear in the record whether or not Mr. Welch speaks for
him.
Senator Mundt. I think Mr. Stevens has made that clear earlier,
unless he wishes to challenge it at any time, that he has Mr. Welch as
his counsel, and the Chair will so understand it unless Secretary
Stevens at any time will say, "I want to be heard on my own behalf."
Senator McCarthy. That is agreeable.
Secretary Stevens. The only thing I have to say on that, Mr. Chair-
man, is that I think that every fact from every witness that bears on
getting the material necessary for this committee to make its determi-
nation should be brought out one way or another.
Senator Mundt. May the Chair state his position now, as he did to
the press conference which followed the executive meeting, at which
I limited my discussion as to what took place in the executive meeting
to reporting on the resolution which was unanimously passed. But I
said we confront three alternatives as the Chair sees it in these hear-
ings. One is to proceed with the slow processes of adjudication in
which we are now engaged; and the (^Ihair w^ould like to say that at the
closed session he asked counsel for all parties and they were all there
yesterday, whether they felt that there were any rule changes which
could be made in equity to all parties concerned which would ex-
pedite the hearings. No rule changes were reconmiended or suggested.
We realized the process of adjudication is slow, and laborious, and the
way it now appears, may require 2 weeks or 3 weeks longer. But if
that is the process to follow to get the facts, I think the facts ulti-
mately can be secured in that direction. It is a little bit disturbing to
find so many of the newspapers, and so many of the people urging
us to use the process of adjudication, now beating us over the head
because we are doing it, and because it takes time to do the thing hon-
estly and fairly.
I think that I speak for the full committee when I say that if we
continue with the processes of adjudication we are not going to be
stampeded into injustice because newspaper people now say, "We wish
it hadn't been started," although it w^as started primarily in con-
formity with their recommendation.
The second procedure would be the process of abdication; the com-
mittee could walk out. Nobody on the committee has suggested that,
and none of the counsel of any of the parties has suggested that, and
I am sure that such a dishonorable procedure w^ould not be followed.
The third is the process of arbitration. We tried with the sugges-
tion that Senator Dirksen made, developing out of Mr. Welch's state-
ment on page 1370 of the record, to bring together all of the parties for
a process of arbitration, to see whether we could narrow the field,
reduce the number of witnesses, or limit it as has been suggested as an
alternative to Secretary Stevens and Senator McCarthy.
Kegardless of what may have been felt or may have been under-
stood yesterday, no other motion was made. We did go around the
room several times to find out whether that would expedite the hearing
and secured a definite commitment from Senator McCarthy that if that
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 659
proceeding Avere followed he would dismiss, as far as he was concerned,
Secretary Stevens this mornino; and assume the stand himself. It
appears that that process of arbitration has not worked out satisfac-
torily because it is quite obvious that at least some of the parties to the
discussion now feel that they would not like to follow that procedure.
We have consequently tried 3 methods or had 3 suggestions before
us for expediting the hearings. The first is to rule out the press and
to have a star chamber session. It has been recommended the way the
Oppenheimer case has been tried, that we conceal the facts from the
public until it is over, and then possibly reveal them or not. We feel,
as a legislative body, it is proper that the public know what is going
on, and wliether or not the Oppenheimer case ultimately gives its
report to the public as a finding or releases all of the facts as it prob-
ably will, that is not the procedure we can follow at this stage of the
game.
The second suggestion made from the outside was that we admit
the press, but rule out the photographers and television. As the Chair
said yesterday, he believes that both the press and the photographers,
with a few exceptions when they bob up when they shouldn't, and
television, have done a remarkably fine job of covering the hearings.
I think it has been done with fairness and with much patience, and
without much prejudice, and the Chair believes the press has a good
influence on television; and the Chair believes television has a good
influence on the press, because people having seen and heard a hear-
ing, want to read, of course, what they saw, and what they heard.
Now, we have tried arbitration, and it has apparently failed, and
so as far as the Chair is concerned, I think, having put our hand to
the plow, we will have to go through to the bitter end. But I trust
that this discussion has been salutary, so people know we did try to
shorten the hearings.
We tried every honorable way and we refused to suggest or try any
dishonorable way or any way which is not fair to the various dispu-
tants.
Senator McClellan, you adressed the Chair, and I am sorry to have
taken so long.
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, I only w'ant to make a brief
comment. We here on the Democratic side are caught in a kind of
crossfire in this quarrel, and it is not our purpose to be contentious
or to do anything to obstruct the processes of justice in speeding up
this hearing to a conclusion. In view of what has been said about the
executive meeting last night, however, I may say that the only agree-
ment that was reached was confirmed by a vote. There was a great
deal of discussion, but the statement that the committee gave serious
consideration to limiting these hearings to only two principals. Secre-
tary Stevens and Senator McCarthy, does not apply to all of the com-
mittee. I stated at that time in the executive session that, in my judg-
ment, all principals to this controversy should be heard, should be re-
quired to take the witness stand and testify under oath, because these
charges are serious. They are not just related to whether a private
in the Army got some passes, was kept off of KP, or whether he drank
champagne in the Stork Club in New York. But the charges and the
countercharges that have been made and are still before this committee
strike at the integrity of the administration of the United States Army,
660 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
and also at the integrity of a standing committee of the United States
Senate.
Gentlemen, in my opinion, you just cannot wipe these charges off and
at the same time do our duty.
I feel that at least the principals to this controversy should be heard.
I hope we can expedite the hearings. This is not a pleasant task
for us. It is a disagreeable task. But the paths of duty are not al-
ways pleasant. We are not responsible for these charges. There are
those present who are, and they are principals to this controversy. If
these charges are unfounded, they go to the damaging of character
and reputation of high public officials, and they should be cleared up.
Mr. Chairman, may I say to you again that the Democrats of this
committee are here to be helpful and to help you expedite these
hearings.
I may say that since this is on television and on radio and before
the public in open hearings, it will not be difficult for the public to de-
tect who is guilty of dilatory tactics and who is undertaking to ob-
struct the hearings, and I say, Mr. Chairman, that so far as I am con-
cerned, I will restrain myself from asking any questions except those
that are directly relevant and necessary to develop the truth and to re-
veal that which is false. I think we are compelled to go on with the
hearings.
Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Senator Symington.
Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman, yesterday after the public hear-
ing we had an executive hearing, and at that hearing we discussed the
possibility of limiting these open hearings to two witnesses. I was
opposed to that at the beginning of the hearing yesterda}', I was op-
posed to it at the end of the hearing, and I am opposed to it this
morning.
Last evening a statement was made on the radio which I confirmed
with the press that one of the members of the committee had stated that
serious consideration was being given to having only two witnesses
and then terminating the hearings. I immediately called my senior
colleague, Senator McClellan, and we agreed that a statement should
be put out provided we could get hold of Senator Jackson. Senator
Jackson was not available, but we knew how he felt, and therefore we
issued a statement that serious consideration had not been given to
having two witnesses only by the Democratic members of this com-
mittee.
Mr. Chairman, it is my opinion that these hearings should never
have been started, but inasmuch as they have been started I think we
owe it to the American people that they go to the end so the people
know the truth.
There has been considerable writing down of the importance of
these hearings from the standpoint of those facts which my senior
colleague has so recently brought up — champagne, shoes, and clothes.
In my opinion, something far deeper is now before the American
people in these hearings, and that is the proper relationship between
the legislative branch of the Government and the executive branch. I
know a little bit about this side of it and more about the other.
There have been statements that these hearings are disheartening
to the ]5eo]ile. There have been statements that the American people
are disgusted with these hearings. Well, many times something that
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 661
is disgusting or disheartening nevertheless has to be done so that we
have good in the long run.
Nobody has asked on the committee that these television sets be in
this room. Nobody has asked that the press be represented. Nobody
has asked that the" hearings be packed with the people who are inter-
ested this morning. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I would say, regardless
of whether or not these hearings are or are not disheartening or dis-
gusting to the American people, the American people want them to go
on.
Just prior to the start of the hearings I made two points only to the
people I represent in Missouri, and they were that I intended with all
my heart to see that these hearings were conducted in a goldfish bowl
so that the people know what were the facts, and I have consistently
opposed any talk of any executive hearings, and the second point made
was that there should be no witness who had an advantage or a dis-
advantage over any other witness, that everybody should appear
equal in these hearings in an effort to obtain the truth.
Mr. Chairman, that is the way I felt when the hearings started, as
that is the way I feel now,
I thank you.
Senator Potter. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Senator Potter.
Senator Potter. This seems to be the morning for testimonials, and
1 would like to add mine. It has been disconcerting to me when the
world is on fire to see an important conference such as the Geneva Con-
ference pushed off on the back pages of our paper, and placed as
second-class news on our television newsreels compared with this
controversy. I do believe that the public is entitled to and the commit-
tee should have the full facts in the case. However, it is difficult for me
to envision how the testimony of say, Mr. Adams, or any others that
might be presented by the Army, will in any material sense add any-
thing new to the testimony that has been given by Secretary of the
Army, Mr. Stevens.
It is also difficult for me to understand how the testimony of, say,
Mr. Cohn or Mr. Carr, can add anything to what Senator McCarthy
might give when he is a witness before this committee.
Therefore, I personally believe that Secretary Stevens represents
the entity of the Army on this side of the controversy, and I think
Senator McCarthy represents the entity of that side on the contro-
versy. The other witnesses will do nothing more than add a great
deal of repetition, and prolong this investigation.
Now, Mr. Chairman, and we sometimes call it personal privilege —
I had assumed that my part in this present controversy was well
known. Much reference has been made to a letter that I wrote to
Secretary of Defense Charles Wilson asking certain questions. In
order to put this in its proper perspective, I would like to restate the
facts as related to my letter.
I think it is well understood, and it has been testified to, that certain
newspaper columnists had received and printed portions of an Army
statement weeks prior to my letter. It was more or less an open
secret that the Army had prepared this statement, known as the
chronological order of events. It was also my understanding, and I
believe it has been testified to, that certain Members of Congress had
662 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
requested this statement. It was also my understanding that in a
press conference some official of the Department of Defense had
been asked by certain members of the press whether it would be
made available to the Members of Congress who had requested, it. It
is my understanding that this official said that it would be made avail-
able. This all prior to my letter to the Secretary of Defense.
I thought it incumbent upon the members of this committee, and
certainly those who after all have to assume their responsibility as
majority members, to obtain that report or chronological order of
events prior to some other Member of Congress receiving it and sur-
prising us on the floor by a speech or news conference. Therefore, I
requested this report and I received it. I believe I received it 24 hours
prior to any other Member of Congress.
This report was seen by four people, myself, Senator McCarthy,
Senator Mundt, Senator Dirksen, and no one else. It was my under-
standing that this report was due to be issued, as a result of the state-
ments that had been made in a press conference, to other Members of
the Congress, not on the majority side of this committee.
The purpose of my letter was to keep from having a spectacle such
as we are having now. I had hoped that this controversy could have
been resolved, and the committee or the Army take the proper action
to remove people if shown to have been guilty of misconduct. I never
envisioned that we would have parades of special attorneys. I had
assumed that this matter could be handled quickly, and would shortly
have been over with. I did not pull the trigger for this hearing. I
was trying to keep from having a hearing such as we are having now.
I want that definitely understood, by any who may have heretofore
mistakenly sought to place upon me the burden of starting this hear-
ing. My effort was directly to the contrary, believing this to be a
controversy where we could ascertain the facts quickly, possibly call-
ing Mr. Adams and Mr. Cohn, and then getting it over with.
Mr. Chairman, I regret I have taken so long, but I wanted my part
made very clear.
Senator Mundt. The Chair has ruled, that for the purposes of il-
lumination any counsel and members of the committee may speak
without the rules of order prevailing for the time being.
I think Senator Jackson has indicated he would like to speak next.
Senator Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I wish to associate myself with
every possible effort to expedite these hearings. I think that some
of us have tried to show our good faith by passing when our turn
came to cross-examine. I hope that the principals to the controversy
will show their good faith by trying to cut down the time for cross-
examination. It is only through the cooperation of all the principals
to this controversy that we can hope to achieve an early end to this
controversy.
Cooperation, however, in this connection does not mean the elimi-
nation or the covering up of charges previously and supposedly, and
I take it to be made in good faith. We are here today because serious
charges were made, not mere idle charges about some minor matters.
But we are here today because serious charges were made.
To expedite the hearing time of this controversy does not include
the elimination of testimony material to the controversy. If we are
only interested in expediting and nothing else, we woiild have total
SPECIAL LNVESTIGATION 663
expedition by calling the hearing off now, I think that ought to be
clear to everyone.
But the truth is that we are here because of some very serious charges
made by the principals to this controversy. Lest someone think that
these original charges were light, let me refer for the record now
very briefly to some of the serious charges that have been made on both
sides of this controversy.
These are the charges that were made on the basis of which the
subcommittee decided to employ special counsel and hold open hear-
ings to investigate their truth or veracity.
Originally there was a charge by the Army in its chronological re-
port tTiat the subcommittee on investigations was being used by Mr.
Cohn and to a lesser extent by Senator McCarthy to gain preferential
treatment in the Army for a former employee, G. David Schine.
There were contained in this Army report allegations that Roy
Cohn stated that he would wreck the Army and cause Secretary
Stevens to be through as Secretary of the Army unless G. David
Schine was given the assignment to which he thought he was entitled.
As the subcommittee, with Roy Cohn as chief counsel, was then in
the midstreet of a vigorous investigation of alleged subversives in
the Department of the Army, this was clearly no empty threat.
Senator McCarthy, Roy Cohn, and Frank Carr thereupon charged
that Secretary Stevens and John Adams had attempted to blackmail
them into stopping their investigation of the Army. Senator Mc-
Carthy is quoted in an AP story on March 13, 1954, and I quote :
Adams, while he didn't say so in so many words, warned me, McCarthy, that
unless the investigation of the Communists in the Army was discontinued, we
would be embarrassed by a report that was being prepared. No investigation
will be ended because of threats of blackmail.
I invite to your attention the fact that blackmail is a felony pun-
ishable with a penitentiary sentence.
Roy Cohn stated, in speaking about their report, and I quote from
the Army report his quotation :
It is an unprecedented thing, obviously leaked out by the Army as they had
failed at prior blackmail attempts.
It was also claimed by Mr. Roy Cohn that the Army was holding
G. David Schine as a hostage in order to force the subcommittee to
terminate their investigations into the Army.
It was alleged by Senator McCarthy and Mr. Roy Cohn that the
Secretary of the Army, Robert Stevens, and John Adams attempted
to divert the investigation of the subcommittee into the Army to an
investigation of the Air Force and the Navy.
They claimed that Mr. Stevens and Mr. Adams offered to turn over
derogatory information on these other services if the subcommittee
would call off the investigation of the Army.
Specifically, Mr. Roy Cohn stated that John Adams offered to give
him the name of an Air Force base where there were a grou]) of homo-
sexuals in return for Mr. Roy Cohn's promise that the subcommittee
would not further pursue its investigation of the Army.
In addition to these most serious charges and countercharges that
were the basis on which the subcommittee decided to hold open hear-
ings and investigation, there have been most serious statements made
since that time in connection with this hearing. If the investigation
664 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
is terminated now, there will be many questions of truth and veracity
completely unresolved.
I only hope, Mr. Chairman, that every effort will continue to be
made as the members of this committee are tryintr to do, to find a
way to speed the testimony that must be brought before the com-
mittee. But let us never forojet that to expedite this hearinoj, to speed
the testimony, does not mean the elimination of testimony that was
deemed so material at the outset that we found it necessary unani-
mously to undertake this investigation.
Senator Mundt. Senator Jackson?
Senator Dworshak. Mr. Chairman, I shall be very brief. Already
servinjj on 12 committees and subcommittees of the Senate, I was most
reluctant to accept this additional assignment and fill in temporarily
on this subcommittee I had not followed the prehearing develop-
ments very closely, but I was fully aware that if any controversy
existed, it might well have been resolved without a public spectacle.
Now we observe that we are facing much difficulty because of the
threat of a prolonged hearing at a time when the officials in the De-
partment of the Army and the members of this subcommittee have
far more important business to transact. I think that it is the over-
whelming sentiment of the American people that everything possible
should be done to terminate these hearings just as quickly as possible.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Jenkins?
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman, as counsel for this committee, I feel
impelled at this time to make a statement.
Yesterday afternoon at 5 o'clock this committee held an executive
session. The members of the committee have revealed to some extent
at least what transpired at that session, and I therefore feel at liberty
to now likewise do so.
In that session I was called upon to make a statement, and in sub-
stance and to the best of my recollection I stated this: That initially
I was employed by seven United States Senators comprising this sub-
committee, that at that time I did not look upon the members of this
committee as being either Democrats or Republicans, that I regarded
them as loyal, patriotic Americans.
I stated then, and I state now publicly, that nothing has been said
and nothing has transpired to change my opinion of a single member
of this committee which I am trying to serve to the best of my ability.
Mr. Welch was present at the time, and he made a statement. It
does not lie within my province to interpret the words of Mr. Welch.
They are transcribed, I might say in reference thereto, that "The mov-
ing hand has writ, and having writ, moves on."
It is the prerogative exclusively of this committee to interpret what
was said. I further said to the committee that I felt it my duty to
inform the committee of a fact of which it was then well aware, and
of which it is well aware this morning, and that is that messages that
are being received in my office by myself and my staff, messages from
people in high places in the Government, messages from people in
less important places but people who to my mind are equally great
and who equally reflect the sentiment of the American public, indi-
cate that the public is greatly disturbed over the results and the effects
these open hearings are producing upon the minds of tlie people. The
undercurrents of the emotionalism of the people are so swift and so
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 665
strong as to, in my mind, in many instances almost dethrone reason
from its citadel. I told the committee that. The committee is well
aware of that. I reminded the committee that in no sense did I make
any recommendation nor did I intend to say anythinj^ from which
the committee mif^ht infer my opinion as to whether or not the inves-
tigation should be discontinued, should be curtailed, or should be con-
tinued minutely and in detail to its bitter end. That is exclusively
the province of the committee which I serve.
I further stated at that time, and I state now to the committee, and
to all of the American people, that if the committee decides to cur-
tail this hearino; and to discontinue it and to cut it short, I graciously
bow to the will of the committee for which I am workin<^. But I
made it clear then, and I desire to make it equally clear and emphatic
now, that if the committee decides in its wisdom that this case must
be presented in all of its details re^rardless of the consequences and
regardless of the time that will be consumed, and the faithful mem-
bers of my staff will be here assistinj^ in our humble way in the expo-
sition of the facts as lon^i; as there is breath in our bodies.
Senator Mundt. Is there anybody else who wants to be heard before
we return to the 10-minute rule and the order of questioning?
Senator McCarthy. Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy.
Senator McCarthy. Very briefly I would like to make it clear that
I did not make the suggestion that we limit the hearing to Secretary
Stevens and myself, I agreed to that suggestion when I felt the ma-
jority of the committee felt it was wise.
One of the principal reasons why I agreed to the shortening in that
fashion was because as of now, Mr. Chairman, this committee has in
its files a vast list of individuals, Communists working in defense
plants, with a razor, if you please, poised over the jugular vein of
this Nation. We have individuals in the Army, six of them, whom
we ordered called the day before this report was issued.
The reason why I was willing to consent to this abbreviated proce-
dure, suggested by Mr. Welch, incidentally, w\as because I felt we had
vastly more important work to do.
As far as I am concerned, I am still willing to abide by the agree-
ment which we made last night. If Mr. Welch wants to "welsh"
on that that is perfectly all right. I think something has been accom-
plished, Mr. Chairman. Even though we do continue for weeks and
months on this hearing, something has been accomplished. It now
appears very clear who wants to prolong the hearings, who wants to
drag them out.
May I say, Mr. Chairman, that I am not too impressed by some of
my colleagues here who tell how they w^ant to shorten the hearings by
passing when the real issues of the case are up, by taldng hours of our
time, days if you please when we are talking about some young man's
boots or some photograph. I am not impressed by it at all.
Senator Muxdt. Does anybody else want to be heard before we
resume under the 10-minute rule? If not, may the Chair say that
there is this happy note that can be added: that our meeting yester-
day was all conducted in a friendly spirit. The Chair did not have
to sound the gavel a single time. We were gathered around the table
to explore the possibilities through arbitration, of finding a mutually
satisfactory formula for shortening the hearings.
666 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
It is now apparent, certainly, to the public, as it should be, that
that formula was not arrived at.
There is oner other hapj)y note. Not one single charge has come
from any of the parties to this dispute, not one single criticism from
any of the parties to this dis})ute or their counsel, that the committee
or its counsel has at any time been unfair or manifests any prejudice.
I want to say in behalf of our committee that we are happy that tliat
situation has prevailed. It may well be that the wheels of the gods
grind slowly, but they grind exceedingly fine. Time is important.
The truth is much more important. We are going to continue to
search for the truth by all of the tactics and capacities that we have.
We will ask that the counsel continue to consult together if they
can find some fair and equitable manner for expediting the hearings.
If not, we will continue with the rules and the procedures and the
plans and the policies with which we began.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy?
Senator McCarthy. May I make it clear now when the Chair says
that counsel should consult together, as far as I am concerned I
have only consulted Mr. Welch when he was under oath. I will
not consult with a man who makes an agreement and breaks it. As
far as I am concerned, it is bad faith. He made a suggestion. I ex-
tended myself to accept that. And I would like to know and, Mr.
Chairman, I think you should consider — I am not making a request
now, but I think you should consider whether or not Mr. Welch should
not be put under oath and have the committee find out what happened
between the time that he said that he was willing to shorten these
proceedings and this morning when he changed his mind.
As I say, I am not making a request, Mr. Chairman, but I wish you
would give that some thought.
Senator Mundt, The Chair will suggest that we now continue with
the order of the day.
Mr. Welch. Mr, Chairman, that is not satisfactory to me, sir, that
accusation of bad faith on my part. There are three, six, eight people
at the head table, at your table, who know what went on. The allega-
tion or the suggestion of bad faith on the part of Welch is false, and it
is known to you gentlemen at the other side of this table to be false.
Either the chairman or the counsel should add his word to mine on
this point.
Senator Mukdt. The Chair has no intention whatsoever of follow-
ing the suggestion to put the people who were at the executive session
under oath to try to determine anything further than we have been
able to discuss among ourselves here in public, where everybody has
had his chance to say what he wanted to say on his own responsibility,
with no rules of relevancy, no rules of time termination, no rules of
procedure applying.
Mr. Stevens is back on the stand. We will start with Counsel Jen-
kins, if he has any questions.
TESTIMONY OF HON. ROBERT T. STEVENS, SECRETARY OE THE
ARMY — Resumed
xMr. Jekkins. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions.
Senator Mundt. The Chair has none. Senator McClellan.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION GG7
Secretary Stevens. May I make a brief statement, Mr. Chairman ?
It is directly relevant to my questioning yesterday.
Senator Mundt. Without objection, you may.
Secretary Stevens. Senator McCarthy questioned me yesterday
with respect to the two letters that he had written me during the
month of March in regard to the report of the Inspector General in
connection with the Peress case. I told him that I thought that I had
acknowledged those letters, but I wasn't sure about it. I would like
the opportunity to check up and make sure.
I have in front of me here a copy of a letter which I wrote Senator
McCarthy on the 13th of April, and it is a brief letter and with your
permission I will read it :
Senator Mundt. You may read it.
Secretary Ste\t:ns (Eeacling:)
Deiar Mr. Chairman : This is in reply to your recent correspondence regarding
the case of Major Peress. As you have been previously advised, this case is under
investigation by the Inspector General of the Army. The investigation has not
yet been completed, however, according to present expectations, it vpill be com-
pleted this month. As soon thereafter as practicable, we will notify you and be
prepared to present the matter to the Permanent Subcommittee on Investiga-
tions.
Sincerely yours,
Egbert T. Stevens,
Secretary of the Army.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, would you consider inserting
in the record together with this letter, the dates of my letters, namely
March 15, and March 30, and the wire of April 12, and the Secretary's
letter of April 13 ?
Senator Mundt. That is your reply, April 13 ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. The Chair will receive all of the letters in evidence
marked serially so that they can be identified if they are referred to in
the future.
(The documents referred to were marked as "Exhibits Nos. 12 (a),
12 (b), 12 (c), and 12 (d)." Exhibits Nos. 12 (a), 12 (b), and 12 (c)
will be found in the files of the subcommittee. Exhibit No. 12 (d)
appears above on this page.)
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, I pass.
Senator Mundt. Any of the Senators at my left desire to inter-
rogate ?
Mr. Welch. I will pass.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Cohn.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Secretary, overnight have you checked your files
concerning the matter of the loyalty board and can you now tell us
whether or not there is any provision of law which gives immunity
from service of subpoena to members of loyalty boards which have
cleared Communists?
Mr. Welch. Could I answer on behalf of the Secretary?
Senator Mundt. Xou may suggest to the Secretary, the informa-
tion, but you ard not under oath and the Secretary is.
Secretary Stevens. Mr. Cohn, I said that we would prepare a
memorandum as quickly as we could, and that memorandum is in
process of preparation and I hope to be able to submit it to the com-
mittee during the course of the day. We have been working very hard
on it late last night and during the day.
668 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION "
Mr. CoHN. In other words, now, sir, you are preparing that memo- ■[
randmn and you can't tell us now whether or not you know of any
provision of law which gives immunity to members of a loyalty board
from service of process of a subpoena. That is all I wanted to know,
and I wonder if you could answer that much so that we could move on.
Secretary Stevens. I think that I had better wait until I have the
memorandum so I could speak definitely. Not being a lawyer.
Mr. CoiiN. Very well, sir. Mr. Stevens, I might ask you this : Do
you not know and have you not been advised of the fact that members
of loyalty boards of other departments have responded to subpoenas
by this committee, and have appeared before this committee, and have
given us full testimony in response to questions by this committee?
Secretary Stevens. I am not familiar with that; no.
Mr. ConN. Were you not advised by Senator McCarthy, sir, in
September and on other occasions, and I refer in September to a meet-
ing at the Carroll Arms Hotel, on September 8, 1 believe, and on other
occasions that members of the loyalty board of the Government Print-
ing Office had appeared freely and voluntarily, before the svibcom-
mittee and had given full testimony with no objection from anyone?
Secretary Stevens. I remember there was some discussion about
the Government Printing Office.
Mr. CoHN. And do you recall some discussion about the loyalty
board of the Government Printing Office, Mr. Secretary?
Secretary Stevens. No, I recall that Senator McCarthy indicated
that the Government Printing Office officials had made a very favor-
able impression, in their appearances, but I don't recall the loyalty
board part of it.
Mr. CoHN. You don't recall that part of it?
Secretary Stevens. No, I don't.
Mr. CoHN. I might suggest then, sir, that your counsel in the course
of their legal research might examine the records of our committee,
to see that members of loyalty boards have never before refused to
appear before this subcommittee and give testimony. The record
for August of 1953, containing testimony by members of a loyalty
board of the Government Printing Office. And, Mr. Chairman, I will
leave this particular line of interrogation until such time as Mr.
Stevens has had the opportunity to look at this memorandum.
Senator Mundt. Very well.
INIr. CoHN. We can go on from there.
Mr. Secretary, is it not a fact that from the date you went into office
as Secretary of the Army until the day this committee went into the
Fort Monmouth situation, no action had been taken against a large
number of security risks concerning whom the FBI had submitted
numerous reports to your office ?
Secretary STE\rENS. No, I would say there had been a lot of in-
vestigating and action going on, and in conjunction with the FBI.
Mr. CoiiN. Sir, your office receives reports from the FBI, I assume,
like every other Government agency, containing derogatory informa-
tion indicating certain of your employees are Communists or have
engaged in Communist activities ; is that right ?
Secretary Stevens. We receive FBI reports, yes, sir.
IMr. CoHN. Now, would you agree with me further that tlie Fort
Monmouth radar laboratories, and subsidiaries, are among the most
sensitive spots in this Nation?
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION G69
Secretary Stevens. Yes.
Mr. CoHN". Would you further aj^ree with me, sir, that a large num-
ber of members of the Julius Rosenberg spy ring were employed in the
1940's, at the radar laboratories at Fort Monmouth? Do you know
that to be a fact ? Do you not, sir ?
Secretary Ste\'ens. I have been told that there were some there, in
the 194()'s, and I don't know it of my own certain knowledge, and of
course my concern with it has been since I have been in office.
Mr. CoHX. Well, you know, sir, there has been public testimonj^, and
documentation supplied by your office to us indicating that the master
atom spy, Julius Rosenberg himself, was working
IMr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman, I must say that any testimony relative
to the conditions prevailing at Fort Monmouth in 1940 is wholly
irrelevant and is therefore objected to.
Mr. CoHN. May I address myself to counsel on that ?
Senator Mundt. You may be heard on a point of order.
Mr. CoHN. I think it is very relevant to show this background and
lead into the fact that associates of Julius Rosenberg were still working
at the radar laboratory when Mr. Stevens was Secretary, and that no
action was taken against them.
Mr. Jenkins. The counsel agrees with you if you will confine your
question as to whether or not such subversives were employed at Fort
^Monmouth when Mr. Stevens took office, and I hold it is perfectly
competent.
Mv. CoHN. Very well, sir, and I am trying to lay the foundation for
that.
Senator Mundt. The Chair suggests you embrace in your question
those other facts so that we will know what it is.
Mr. CoiiN. It might be a long question, but I will try to embrace the
full set of facts in one question, if I can.
Mr. Stevens, this will necessarily be a long question and so you ask
me afterwards to break it down if you feel it is necessary.
Mr. Stevens, is it not a fact that a majority of members of the
Julius Rosenberg spy ring, namely Julius Rosenberg, Joel Barr, Alfred
Surand, Vivian Glassman, and others worked personally for the Army
Signal Corps at the radar laboratories at Fort Monmouth, and that
associates and friends of these spies continued to work for the Army
Signal Corps at radar laboratories until this committee came along
and occasioned their dismissal ?
Mr. Welch. Mr. Cohn, you have given a lot of names and facts
there, that I am personally not familiar with in detail as to when they
were or what they were. But I will say this: That in regard to
the 35 cases with which we have been concerned at Fort Monmouth, as
far as I know they are not Communists, any of them, and none of them
have pleaded the fifth amendment.
Mr. Cohn. IMr, Secretary
Secretary Stevens. So t don't quite get the connection between the
1940 picture that you are bringing in here, and the particular group
we are now talking about.
Mr. Cohn. Maybe, sir, I can try to show you that connection and
agree with you that there is a connection.
First of all, sir, as to your statement about the fifth amendment,
I agree with you. If one claims the fifth amendment, we can attach
much importance to that as a signpost of communism and Communist
670 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Party membership. But, sir, is it not a known public fact, in response
to your statement, that a great many people who have been found to
be Communists and Communist spies, such as Alger Hiss and William
Eemington, have not claimed the fifth amendment?
Secretary Stevens. I think that is true.
Senator McCarthy. May I interrupt, Mr. Counsel. Just so the
record will be clear, I don't want the record to stand that none of
these individuals took the fifth amendment. Some of them did. The
Secretary should know that. For example, a Ruth Levine, in Tele-
communications, handling secret radar work for 10 years.
Secretary Stevens. Not at Fort Monmouth, Senator McCarthy.
Senator McCarthy. Just a minute. If you attach a great deal of
significance to location — I am attaching significance to the radar work.
For your information, if you don't know it, a Ruth Levine, with
"Top secret" clearance in Telecommunications, which does a great deal
of radar work for Fort Monmouth, was subpenaed on December 13,
appeared before the committee on the 16th, took the fifth amendment
as to conspiracy to commit espionage, as to whether she was giving
secret material. I don't think you want to make that misstatement of
fact, Mr. Secretary.
Secretary Stevens. Is she 1 of the 35 who have been suspended at
Fort Monmouth ?
Senator McCarthy. Are you asking me ?
Secretary Stevens. Yes.
Senator McCarthy. I thought you were still the Secretary, Mr.
Stevens, and I thought you knew who was suspended. You have
refused to tell me or give me the names of those you suspended.
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Jenkins?
Mr. Jenkins. May I call the committee's attention to this fact, as
well as Senator McCarthy's. Senator McCarthy is now, by that line
of questioning, going into the guilt or innocence and the degree of guilt
of tliose suspended at Fort Monmouth as a result, allegedly, of his
investigation. I again remind the committee that under all the rules
of evidence that is not a proper point of inquiry. It would lead us
into the merits and demerits of each of the individual 35 cases. I
again remind Senator McCarthy that there was in existence a board
having jurisdiction to pass upon the question of whether or not, in
view of the evidence uncovered by the McCarthy investigating com-
mittee, any one or all of those 35 were suspended. That matter be-
came adjudicated, the adjudication being that the evidence was suffi-
cient to justify a suspension. That is the limit to which this committee
sJiould conduct its inquiry, and I must again object to any testimony
relative to the degree of innocence of any of the individual cases.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman.
Senator JNIundt. A point of order, Senator McCarthy ?
Senator McCarthy. The Secretary of Defense has volunteered the
information, without being asked the question, that none of the indi-
viduals were Communists, that none of them took the fifth amendment.
I agree with counsel that ordinarily we should not investigate these
ijidividual cases, but when the Secretary of the Army makes a state-
ment which is so clearly false, known to us to be false, the only waj- I
can correct it is to pick up a few of the individual cases which show
he is not speaki]ig the truth, and I may say, Mr. Jenkins, otherwise
SPECIAL mVESTIGATION 671
I ^voiild not have gone into the individual cases and had no intention
of doing it.
Mr. Jenkins. Do I understand, Mr. Stevens, that you have stated
that none of those 35 suspensions was a Communist ?
Secretary Stevens. So far as I now know, that is the fact.
Mr. Jenkins. Your statement
Secretary Stevens. And none of them plead the fifth amendment
that I know of.
Mr. Jenkins. I am not asking about the fifth amendment. Your
statement is that none of them was or is a Communist, as far as you
know.
Secretary Stevens. That is right. Of course the investigations are
going on, on those people, as you know, Mr. Jenkins. We don't yet
know the outcome on all of them.
Mr. Jenkins. ]Mr. Chairman, one of the charges of the McCarthy
committee is that Mr. Stevens and Mr. Adams sought to discredit the
committee and to belittle its work, and if the Senator is now pursuing
a line of interrogation designed to show that there was in fact a
Communist or Communists there, it is my opinion that such proof
is perfectly competent.
Senator INIundt. Counsel withdraws his point of order. The Sena-
tor may continue.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Secretary
Secretary Stevens. May I be sure that we are talking about Fort
IMonmouth. I am not sure that Senator McCarthy isn't talking about
some other place.
Mr. Jenkins. Senator, do you mind advising the Secretary whether
or not you are talking about Fort Monmouth ?
Senator ISIcCarthy. I am talking about the Army Signal Corps.
Mr. Jenkins. Very well.
Secretary Stephens. That is quite a lot different.
Senator McCarthy. It is ?
Secretary Stevens. It covers a lot more territory. I have been di-
recting my remarks to Fort Monmouth.
Senator Mundt. I will ask the Senator to restate his question so
the Secretary knows for sure whether it includes one segment or
another of his jurisdiction.
Senator McCarthy. Where is the headquarters of the Army Signal
Corps, Mr. Secretary ?
Secretary Stevens. Eight here in Washington.
Senator McCarthy. Is Fort Monmouth under the jurisdiction of
the Army Signal Corps ?
Secretary Stevens. That is right.
Senator McCarthy. You are aware of course of the fact that Tele-
communications does a sizable amount of not only secret but top
secret work.
Secretary Stevens. I thought you were talking about Fort Mon-
mouth.
Senator McCarthy. Just answer my question. Are you aware of
the fact that Telecommunications does a great deal of classified work
for the Army Signal Corps, including top secret work ?
Secretary Ste\t:ns. Senator McCarthy, I still say that my remarks,
so the record will be clear, were directed to Fort Monmouth, which is
672 SPECIAL INVESTIGATIOISr
what I was talking about and now you are talking about something
else.
Senator Mundt. The Senator's time has expired. Before going
around the wheel again, the Chair would like to inquire from his col-
leagues their desires in connection with the fact that a joint session
of Congress has been called at 12 : 30 because of a distinguished visitor
from Canada. It might be that we would want to recess early enough
to pay our guest the courtesy of being present at his address.
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, I suggest, then, that if we
desire to attend the joint session, that we now recess until 2 o'clock
instead of 2 : 30, and therefore not lose any time.
Senator Symington. I second that motion, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Without objection we stand in recess until 2
o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12:30 p. m. a recess was taken until 2 p. m. the
same day.)
INDEX
Page
Adams, John G 657, 661-6G3, 671
Air Force (United States) 663
Air Force base 663
AP story 663
Army (United States) 652,636,659,602-665,669,671
Army Signal Corps 669, 671
Associated Press (AP) 603
Barr, Joel 669
Bryan, Frederick P 657
Carr, Francis P 655,656,661,663
Carroll Arms Hotel (Washington, D. C.) 668
Cohn, Roy M 655, 656, 661-663
Communist Party 670
Communist spies 670
Communists 657, 668-670
Congress of the United States- 661, 662, 672
Democratic members 660
Democratic side 659
Democrats 659, 660, 664
Department of the Army 652, 656, 659, 662-665, 669, 671
Dirksen, Senator 653-655, 658
Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) 668
Federal Government 660, 664, 668
Fort Dix ^^ 655
Fort Monmouth 668-671
Geneva' Conference 061
Glassman, Vivian 6G9
Government Printing Othce 668
Government of the United States 660, 664, 668
Hensel, H. Struve "652-654, 656
Hiss, Alger 670
Inspector General of the Army 667
Jackson, Senator 660
K. P. (kitchen police) 659
Levine, Ruth * 670
McCarthy, Senator Joe 652-659, 661-663, 665-668, 670, 671
McCarthy committee 671
McClellan, Senator 660
Members of Congress 061, 662
Navy (United States) 663
New York City 659
Oppenheimer case 659
Peress, Maj. Irving 667
Radar laboratories (Fort Alonmouth) 608, 669
Radar work (secret) 670
Remington, William 670
Republicans 664
Rosenberg, Julius 669
Ryan, General 655
Schine, G. David- 655, 663
Secretary of the Army 652-659, 601, 663, 665-672
Secretary of Defense 661, 662, 670
Senate of the United States 652, 660, 664
Signal Corps 669, 671
IT INDEX
Page
Stevens, Robert T 652-659, 661, 663, (565
Testimony of 658, 666-672
Stork Club (New York City) 659
Suraud, Alfred 669
Telecommunications 670, 671
Top Secret (clearance) 670
Ignited States Air Force 663
United States Army 652, 656, 659, 662-665, 689, 671
United States Army Si.i;nal Corps 669, 671
United States Congress 661, 662, 672
United States Department of Defense 662
United States Government 660, 664, 668
United States Navy 663
United States Secretary of Defense (i61, 6(52
United States Senate 652, 660
United States Senators 664
Washington, D. G 671
Wilson, Charles 661
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