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Given By
SPECIAL SENATE INVESTIGATION ON CHARGES
4ND COUNTERCHARGES INVOLVING: SECRE-
rARY OF THE ARMY ROBERT T. STEVENS, JOHN
G. ADAMS, H. STRUVE HENSEL AND SENATOR
JOE McCarthy, roy m. cohn, and
FRANCIS p. CARR
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SPECIAL SUBCOMMITTEE ON
INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMIHEE ON
GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
UNITED STATES SENATE
EIGHTY-THIKD CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
PURSUANT TO
S. Res. 189
PART 26
MAY 11, 1954
Printed for the use of the Committee ou Government Operations
UNITED STATES j
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE ]
46620* WASHINGTON : 1954 I
i
Boston Public Library
Superintendent of Documents
SEP 8 -1954
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
JOSEPH R. MCCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas
MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Maine HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, Minnesota
HENRY C. DWOKSHAK, Idalao HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington
EVERETT Mckinley DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER. Maryland STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan ALTON A. LENNON, North Carolina
Richard J. O'Melia, General Counsel
Walter L. Reynolds, ChieJ Clerk
Special Subcommii^tee on Investigations
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota, Chairman,
EVERETT MCKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington
HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri
Rat H. Jenkins, Chief Counsel
Thomas R. Prewitt, Assistant Counsel
ROBERT A. Collier, Assistant Counsel
SOLis HORWITZ, Assistant Counsel
Charles A. Maner, Secretary
n
CONTENTS
Index-
Page
1
III
SPECIAL SENATE INVESTIGATION ON CHAEGES AND
COUNTEKCEARGES INVOLVING: SECRETARY OF THE
ARMY ROBERT T. STEVENS, JOHN G. ADAMS, H. STRUVE
HENSEL AND SENATOR JOE MCCARTHY, ROY M. COHN,
AND FRANCIS P. CARR
TUESDAY, MAY 11, 1954
United States Senate,
Special Subcommittee on Investigations of the
Committee on Government Operations,
Washington, D. C.
The subcommittee met at 11 : 37 a. m., pursuant to recess, in the
caucus room of the Senate Office Building, Senator Karl E. Mundt,
chairman, presiding.
Present : Senator Karl E, Mundt, Republican, South Dakota ; Sen-
ator Everett McKinley Dirksen, Republican, Illinois; Senator Charles
E. Potter, Republican, Michigan; Senator Henry C. Dworshak, Re-
publican, Idaho; Senator John L. IMcClellan, Democrat, Arkansas;
Senator Henry M. Jackson, Democrat, Washington; and Senator
Stuart Symington, Democrat, Missouri.
Also present: Ray H. Jenkins, chief counsel to the subcommittee;
Thomas R. Prewitt, assistant counsel ; and Ruth Y. Watt, chief clerk.
Principal participants: Senator Joseph R. INIcCarthy, a United
States Senator from the State of Wisconsin; Roy M. Cohn, chief
counsel to the subcommittee; Francis P. Carr, executive director of
the subcommittee ; Hon. Robert T. Stevens, Secretary of the Army ;
John G. Adams, counselor to the Army; Joseph N. Welch, special
counsel for the Army; James D. St. Clair, special counsel for the
Army; and Frederick P. Bryan, counsel to H. Struve Hensel, Assist-
ant Secretary of Defense.
(At 10 : 40 a, m. the following colloquy occurred :)
Senator Mundt. The Chair wishes to make an announcement : He
has just had a telephone call from Senator Dirksen, who advises him
that — the first order of business being the resolution that he was going
to submit and that he has drawn up — advises me that he is changing
it and that he is in the process of having it typed and consequently
has requested that we defer the opening until 11 : 30. So we will con-
tinue to stand in recess until 11 : 30, and the witness will be dismissed.
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, let us proceed with the testi-
mony.
(There was further discussion out of hearing of the reporter.)
Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman, I move that witnesses be heard
until Senator Dirksen is ready to come in with his revised resolution.
Senator Mundt. The Chair is in no position to consider motions
969
970 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
until he calls the meeting to order. I simply made an announcement
that Senator Dirksen had requested that in line with the understand-
ino^ that he was to make his motion the first order of business. He
called me and asked me to state that he was getting the thing typed
up and mimeographed and it was announced as a courtesy to him that
we w^ould defer the opening of the hearings until 11 : 30, which the
Chair has said he would do. The witnesses will be dismissed until
11 : 30. We will reconvene promptly at 11 : 30.
Senator Mundt. The committee will come to order.
The Chair would like to welcome our guests to the committee room
and advise them, if they have not been here before, that we have a
committee rule requiring that there be no audible manifestations of
approval or disapproval of any kind at any time. You are w^elcome to
be here so long as you comply with that rule. The officers in the
audience have a standing instruction from the committee to politely
escort from the room immediately any of our guests who violate the
terms under which they came into the committee room.
I want to say again that the audience has been perfectly magnificent
through these long hearings and that the officers have done a splendid
job. We hope that those conditions will continue.
The Chair had agreed at the conclusion of the meeting yesterday,
the business meeting which preceded the hearing, to recognize Senator
Dirksen for the purpose of making a motion. He has it now typed
out. Copies are available for the members of the committee and the
press, and I will distribute them and then recognize Senator Dirksen.
Senator Dirksen.
Senator Dirksen. Mr. Chairman, first of all let me apologize to the
committee for discommoding its session this morning. The answer
is very simple. The days are extremely long. There is so much work
to be accomplished that I just find it almost impossible in the space
of an 18-hour day to get around to everything. Then sometimes my
feeble talents are not too facile in seeking to interpret viewpoints and
human reactions when it comes to language.
There are, as a matter of fact, only two modifications in this motion,
apart from the motion that I made yesterday.
Mr. Chairman, I shall submit it formally now and I will read it for
the benefit of the committee.
Senator Mundt. I wished to inquire whether Mr. Welch and Mr.
Steveiis has a copy.
Mr. St. Clair, here is an extra copy.
Mr. St. Clair. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Bryan. Do you have a copy for me, Mr. Chairman ?
Senator Mundt. Yes, sir.
Senator Dirksen. Mr. Chairman, as I go along I shall note the two
modifications.
I move that the testimony of Secretary Stevens be conclnded on the adoption
of this motion ; that Senator McCarthy be then called for testimony and for
direct and cross-examination ; that on the conclusion of Senator McCarthy's
testimony the public hearings be recessed
and this next proviso, Mr. Chairman, is new —
Provided, That other witnesses requested by any principal for rebuttal may be
called into executive session forthwith and such tesfcimony be made public
immediately.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 971
That is the new matter.
That committee counsel be instructed to survey the charges and testimony,
and interview all witnesses suggested by any party concerned as well as any
other witness whom the chairman or counsel deem necessary and then report his
resum(§ of the statements of all witnesses and any other facts brought to the
attention of counsel, to the subcommittee which subcommittee shall then deter-
mine whether further public hearings are necessary ; that at the conclusion of
the testimony by Senator McCarthy the regular subcommittee shall resume its
normal functions under the rules of the Senate with respect to any matters not
related to the pending controversy.
and this next phrase, Mr. Chairman, is new :
With the understanding that no investigation of military installations or
personnel shall be undertaken until the subcommittee has concluded the pending
Investigation ; and that subcommittee counsel conclude his survey and make his
report to the subcommittee not later than June 10, 1954.
I think the new language, Mr. Chairman, speaks for itself pretty
well, and I have nothing else by way of explanation to make, except
that in my judgment in the public interest in a time of tension, I trust,
that we can get the hearings recessed. I think first of all that this
resolution is within the rule, that it is within the jurisdiction of the
subcommittee as I interpret the rules that were adopted for the conduct
of tliis hearing.
I sincerely hope, Mr. Chairman, that the principals can agree, be-
cause we have gone far afield and we have departed somewhat already
from the essential and the simple issues that were involved, namely,
the charge of improper conduct made by the Army and the answers
and the countercharges made by Senator McCarthy and the staff to
the effect that these were inspired by certain motives that have already
in part been ventilated before this hearing.
That is the whole story in a nutshell.
Senator Dworshak. I will second the motion.
Senator Mundt. Senator Dw^orshak seconds the motion. It calls
for discussion. The Chair will be happy to recognize first any mem-
bers of the committee who might want to speak on the motion.
Senator McClellan-. Mr. Chairman, I suggest you again inquire
of the principals whether they have agreed to this motion.
Senator ]\Iundt. The Chair expects to inquire of the principals
concerning their reaction. Senator McClellan. I want to offer first
of all to the members of the committee the opportunity to say what
they might want to say, as a courtesy to my colleagues on the com-
mittee.
Senator Dirksen. Mr. Chairman, perhaps one explanatory word
might be necessary with respect to the first item of new matter in-
cluded in the present motion. It came about as a result of a question
that was raised by Mr. Welch at one of the hearings in room 357,
where he raised the question of possible rebuttal. This language is tho
result of my rather modest speculations on that point, and I read the
language again: Provided that other witnesses requested by any
principal for rebuttal may be called in executive session forthwith,
and such testimony be made public immediately. That does make
the testimony available. It does not intrude upon the continuity of
the proceedings. But if some point of major moment should arise
that was bitterly contested, there would then be a chance to bring a
witness into executive session for the purpose of offering rebuttal on
that point.
972 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Senator Potter. Will the Senator yield at that point?
Senator Mundt. The Chair recognizes Senator Potter.
Senator Potter. Would that include a witness being called to submit
new evidence, new testimony ?
Senator Dirksen. Well, I thought perhaps it ought to go only to
rebuttal, and so I have used the word rebuttal.
Senator Jackson. Would the Senator yield at that point?
Senator Mundt. Senator Jackson.
Senator Jackson. Well, it seems to me that misses the whole point,
if I understand the pleadings in this controversy. There is yet to be
heard initial charges by some of the principals that are in the form
of charges and countercharges. The Senator's motion limits the testi-
mony after Senator McCarthy's appearance only to rebuttal testimony.
In other words, you can only rebut testimony offered in this public
hearing. But if I read the documents that have been presented to this
committee as the foundation of the charges on which the committee
started the investigation, it includes from each of the principals
denials of charges and also charges of an affirmative nature by each
of the principals. By the very nature of this motion, it will mean that
any witnesses after two of the principals have been heard can only
testify in rebutting testimony given in this open hearing.
Senator Dirksen. That matter, Mr. Chairman, I thought was con-
sidered by the other language in the resolution, with reference to the
responsibilities of counsel to take statements of witnesses and to make
further examination, to report a resume, and then for the committee
to determine whether further public hearings should be reinstated at
a later date.
Senator McCarthy. May I ask a question, Senator Dirksen ?
Senator Jackson. May I finish the question I was asking ? It will
only take a moment.
With reference to the directive in the motion for the counsel to inter-
view witnesses, I would like to inquire of counsel if it is not true that
he has already interviewed the witnesses in accordance with the
directives from the committee at the outset of the hearing.
Senator Dirksen. That was done in accordance before 2,400 pages of
testimony were taken.
Senator Jackson. I think counsel can answer that question.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Jenkins ?
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman, as far as we now know, we know that
we have interviewed all of the principals to this controversy. As far
as we now know we have interviewed all corroborative witnesses. I
might say, however, that from time to time all of the parties to this
controversy are presenting to us additional witnesses whom we are
interviewing in executive session. We never know, Senator Jackson,
when we have finished, but we have done just precisely what I have
now stated.
Senator Jackson. Yes. Well, it is natural that there would be new
witnesses from time to time that would have to be interviewed because
of testimony developed in the hearing. But it is my understanding,
then, that all of the principals have been interviewed and a lot of
collateral witnesses previously.
Mr. Jenkins. You are entirely correct.
Senator Jackson. So this motion, instead of asking to interview
witnesses for the most part, should be worded to reinterview witnesses.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 973
Senator Mundt. If the Chair interprets the motion correctly, it
seems to me that it provides both for reinterview, if there be such, and
interviewing any other witness that the chairman or the counsel and
the Chair — the Chair would interpret "chairman" there to mean com-
mittee — deems necessary and report his resume of the statements.
The element that is new to the committee, of course, at least as far as
the Chair is concerned and I am sure it is true of other committee
members, the counsel has interviewed the witnesses but we have not
been given a summary or resume of what they have said.
Senator Jackson. That is correct. But it wouldn't be necessary to
recess the hearings and have counsel reinterview the witnesses. All
we need to get from counsel is a summary of the information that
counsel has received in connection with the interview of those witnesses.
I think it is just duplication.
Senator ISIundt. Is the chair correct in his interpretation of the
motion that that provides for interviews or reinterviews and a sum-
mary of information so that the committee may know what counsel
has determined in the course of his interview ?
Senator Dirksen. Very definitely.
Senator McCarthy. May I ask a question of counsel ?
Senator Mdxdt. Yes, anyone who is involved here, may ask a
question.
Senator McCarthy. This is the first time that I have seen the
resolution. It differs materially from the one suggested yesterday.
I would like to ask Senator Dirksen if I am correct in this interpreta-
tion of it. No. 1, that McCarthy take the stand immediately, and be
subjected, of course, to as much examination and cross-examination
as any counsel or member of the committee wants, that if, during my
testimony any of the principals feel that they can contradict what I
am saying, that they have a right to call w^itnesses then in executive
session ; that their testimony be made public. No. 1.
No. 2, that this interruption of my testimony be confined to re-
buttal and at the end of it and his staff complete their survey of the
evidence, any additional w^itnesses they feel they must interview, and
that we are giving them a time limit of 30 days, but that if they want
to come in sooner than that, and I am very interested in this, if they
can come in sooner than that and render a report, I assume this would
not preclude them from coming in sooner, is that right?
Senator Dirksen. That is correct, and June 10 was adopted partly^
on the suggestion of counsel to make sure there would at least be
ample time to complete the complete survey.
Senator McCarthy. Let me ask just one other question, Mr.
Dirksen. You refer to military installations. Let us see what is the
exact language :
* * * matters not related to the pending controversy, with the understanding
that no investigation of military installations or personnel shall be under-
taken * * *.
I think that is open to interpretation and I would like to know
now whether or not that would preclude the regular committee in
going into defense plants where we have so many, roughlj^, I think,
130 Communists. It would not preclude us from that.
Senator Dirksen. Definitely not. The words "military installa-
tions" are used there for exactly wliat it means. It must be a military
46620°— 54— pt. 26—2
974 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
installation as such, a fort, a cantonment, any base of any kind, and
military personnel.
Incidentally, I have included that because on reflection it occurred
to me that it wouldn't be quite the fair thing to develop an advantage
on one side or the other by having an investigation of a matter that,
while not directly related to this controversy, is in the same broad
field and might be diversionary in character. I think very properly
speaking it ought to be included here.
Senator McCarthy. May I say, Senator Dirksen, if I might take
10 seconds, I felt I understood the resolution fully, but I wanted to
have the explanation on the record in case it is adopted so there can
be no question at some future time.
Senator Dirksen". I hope I made that clear.
Senator Potter. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Senator Potter?
Senator Potter. I would like to ask Senator Dirksen two questions.
This motion that you have presented is a vehicle for the hearings
from here on in. Do you anticipate that if this procedure is adopted
all the pertinent facts in the controversy will be ascertained ?
Senator Dirksen. I haven't the slightest doubt about it. I think
that already there is so much testimony on the record with respect
to the original charges and the countercharges that the rest of it
certainly we can gather without too feebly immobilizing the com-
mittee for carrying on, for one thing, and at a spectacular plane, for
another.
Senator Potter. Also, all the pertinent facts will be made public ?
Senator Dirksen. Very definitely so. Even the transcripts that
might be taken in executive sessions would be made public immedi-
ately within the language of this resolution.
Senator JMundt. The Chair was about to inquire of Senator Dirk-
sen on that particular point. As I understand, this resolution pro-
vides that regardless of what testimony might be sought and secured
in executive session, it would all be transmitted to the public much
in the fashion that it was done in the MacArthur hearings, which as I
recall, w^as that about every hourly period a full transcript was given
to the press.
Senator Dirksen. That is correct.
Senator Mundt. Do I further understand that this would not pro-
vide for the conclusion of these hearings, but would simply provide
for the putting of McCarthy on the stand and getting his testimony
and then during the interim period provide for the counsel to report to
the committee members those facts which we have not secured from
the executive testimony, at which time we would then determine
whether further public hearings would be required or necessary?
Senator Dirksen. That is very explicit in the motion.
Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Senator Symington.
Senator Symington Mr. Chairman, this is a long resolution and
I suggest that before we have any decision on it we study it. It is
my understanding that Mr. Stevens is not feeling well. It would
be my suggestion that we find out, if we could, how much longer
the testimony of Mr. Stevens is desired by Senator McCarthy and
his staff, and that we proceed now to examine the witnesses and that
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 975
we take this matter up some time later, after we have had a chance
to thoroughly study it.
Mr. CoHN. I might say, if Mr. Stevens is not feeling well, I don't
want to ask him any questions until he is feeling well.
Senator Mundt. The Chair has tried several times to find out how
many questions would be asked of the Secretary, without avail, and
he has always gotten the same answer. I see no reason to pursue
that.
I will say that Secretary Stevens has not told the Chairman he
isn't feeling well and he looks perfectly fine and physically fit as far
as the Chair can see from here.
Secretary STE^'ENS. The witness is feeling fine. Senator Mundt.
Senator Mundt. I am delighted to hear that. At all events, I think
Senator Symington may raise a valid point as far as the Chair is
concerned. It is a long resolution. It is the first time he has had a
chance to see it. He wants to know exactly what is in it and he wants
everybody to know what is in it before he goes around and inquires
of the various entities their reactions. If the Senator's proposal is
that lie feels it would be justice to defer that until 2 : 30, that is some-
thing whicli I say might merit the consideration of the committee,
Senator Symington.
Senator IMcClellan. Mr. Chairman, so far as I am concerned, I
am ready to act, and I may say this
Senator Mundt. The Chair is ready to act.
Senator McClellan. I simply want to hear what the parties to this
controversy have to say about it. I understood the Chair to say yester-
day, unless they agreed to this motion, he could not support it. I
would like to have that information made available now for my own
guidance.
Senator Mundt. The Chair, if we decide to vote on this now — I was
simply responding to Senator Symington's suggestion. He said he
thought we should have more time to study it. If other members
require more time to study it
Senator McClellan. I am not opposing it if anybody wants to take
more time to study it, but as I study it I want to know what the attitude
of the principals are with respect to it and whether they have agreed
to it or now consent to it.
Senator JMundt. The Chair will certainly ascertain that at the
proper time, and the proper time would be now if we decide to vote on
it now. If we decide that committee members should have more time
to study it
Senator Syimington. I will vote on it now, I was opposed to it
before and I am opposed to it today.
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, I ask for the information
from the principals as a matter of guidance for me before I proceed
further. I see no reason why they cannot be asked just at this time.
Senator Mundt. Very well, if you think they have had enough time
to study it, the Chair will propose
Senator McClellan. If they haven't, they can say they haven't.
I just want to find out.
Senator Mundt. Before he asks that question, let me ask each of the
principals this question, because the Chair wants to say something in
his own behalf as to his position on the vote on tliis matter since I have
been referred to by my distinguished ranking colleague. I shall make
976 SPECIAL im'ESTIGATION
clear what will motivate my vote and I would like to do it in my own
words. Before doino; that and before asking them to express any
opinion on tlie resolution, may I simply make this simple request of
each of you : Whether you have had sufficient time in your opinion to
read over the rather long resolution so that when I ask the question
you will be prepared to make a reply or whether you would prefer to
wait, say, until the 2 : 30 session to do that. I will inquire first on that
point then of Senator McCarthy.
Senator McCarthy. I would want to ask one further question of
Senator Dirksen in regard to the interpretation of this language.
Senator Muxdt. Don't ask it now. I just want to find out what
your thinking is.
Senator McCarthy. I will be ready to answer immediately as soon
as I have an interpretation of two words.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Bryan, would you like to have an opportunity
to discuss this with your client, and wait until 2 : 30, or would you
say you are ready to make a decision ?
jNIr. Bryak. Mr. Chairman, I have just seen this resolution in its
altered form for the first time.
Senator Mundt. I know that.
Mr. Bryan. I have some pretty well crystalized views as to what
my thinking is. But my client is not here, and I think at least my
client should have the o))portunity to see the resolution and for me
to discuss it with him. That is not, Mr. Chairman, to be interpreted
as any lack of decision on what my attitude will be.
Senator Mundt. The Chair would seem to feel that is a perfectly
legitimate position. He is not a lawyer, but if he were a lawyer for
a client, he would think he would want to consult with his client on
something as significant as this.
Mr. Bryan. You express it perfectly.
Senator Mundt. I see no reason for asking Mr. Welch this question,
because since there is a party who wants to wait until 2 : 30, I see no
reason to stampede them in this decision.
Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman, I think nobody yet has put
their hands on Mr. Welch. I think he has the right to decide whether
he is being forced to give his opinion or not.
Senator Mundt. If you insist, then, I will ask Mr. Welch whether
he feels that at this time he has had a chance to study this thing ade-
quately so that he can answer the question that he knows the Chair
will ultimately ask, or whether he would like more time to read it over.
Secretary Stevens. May I make a statement on this point ?
Senator Mundt. Surely.
Secretary Stevens. I made a statement yesterday afternoon that I
thought that all the witnesses should come before this committee in
public hearing and get the facts in this case before this committee.
I have not changed that point of view. I have no agreement, Senator
McClellan, with anj^body. I still think we must get the facts out on
this table through calling in public the witnesses who can be seen by
the. members of this committee and by those in this room, and by those
on television, as they give the testimony, similarly to what I have
done as I have sat here over the days. I do not want to be interpreted
in making these remarks as in any way being an obstructionist. I
have profound respect for the elective offices in this country and for
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 977
the committees of this Congress <and for tliis committee. It goes
without saying that whatever decision may be taken by this committee,
the Army will abide by it. But insofar as the Army is concerned, at
the present time we do not subscribe to the idea of putting witnesses
into executive session.
Senator IMundt. Each person having expressed himself and Mr.
Bryan deciding he would like to consult with his client, the Chair
suggests we vote on this at 2:30 this afternoon, at which time all
parties will have had an opportunity to consult. And at which time
the Chair will ask specifically the question which he has in mind, and
which he has announced publicly he will vote, when it comes his time to
vote. I assume, then, Mr. Counsel, that we can continue with the
examination of the witnesses.
Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman, may I make a short statement
at this time ?
Senator Mundt. Certainly.
Senator Symington. As I understand the resolution, just as a mat-
ter of common sense and fairness, not of law, I have just written it
down as I read it, 2 of the 3 McCarthy principals have subjected 1 of
the Army principals to vigorous and intense cross-examination over a
period of some 14 days, 13 perhaps. On the basis of the proposal that
is now suggested by my friend and distinguished colleague from Illi-
nois, 1 of these 2 McCarthy principals would never have to answer
in public hearing under oath a single question.
Mr. Chairman, I do not think that is fair or proper. And I want
to say again that I am opposed to all executive hearings.
I believe the people have the right to form their opinions in open
hearings.
Thank you.
Senator Mundt. Are there any other committee members who would
like to express themselves on the resolution before we proceed with
the interrogation of Secretary Stevens ?
Senator Jackson. I just have this brief statement to make in con-
nection with Senator Dirksen's motion, which in my opinion does not
permit all of those accused to take the stand. I would like to quote
from President Eisenhower's remarks made in this city November 23,
1953:
If we are going to continue to be proud that we are Americans, there must be
no weakening of the codes by which we have lived, by the right to meet your
accuser face to face.
I hope my colleagues will give serious thought to this very wise pro-
nouncement by President Eisenhower.
That is all.
Senator Mundt. Do any of my other colleagues have a statement?
Senator Dirksen. Mr. Chairman, I must make one observation. I
have gi-eat res])ect for the President of the United States, and I can
subscribe to that statement, and I think here, of course, accusers and
accused have confronted each other. Secondly, it is for the committee
to determine whether public hearings shall be reinstated at a later
date and testimony taken from others relevant to the issue that is before
us, so it can be expeditiously resolved. So there is nothing untoward
in this proceeding it becomes the responsibility of a committee of the
legislative branch of the Government to take this action. It is ours
978 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
and we cannot delegate it or alienate that responsibility from our-
selves. I am glad to accept it and I am glad to meet it.
Senator Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I merely wanted to observe that
if this motion is adopted, charges that have been made against some
of the principals in public will not be answered in public. It should
obviously be answered in the same forum where the charges w^ere
made. And I may say, also, that a part of this case is not just the
right of an individual to rebut, to answer testimony, but based on
the record that is before this committee, which was the basis of this
investigation, is the right of the principals to make charges as well as
to answer them. This motion forecloses once and for all the right
of principals who have not been heard and who will not be heard in
public; it forecloses their right to even make those accusations even
m executive session, let alone the deni^^l in a public session.
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman ?
Senator Mundt. Senator McClellan.
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, I will withhold my remarks
until you get ready to act on the motion. At that time, I will have a
suggestion to the committee.
Senator Mundt. Since this seems to be the testimonial hour, we
have some reluctance apparently to begin with the interrogation of
the witness, the Chair would like to make a statement or two in con-
nection with this colloquy.
In the first place, the Chair has been desirous from the start of
trying to find some more appropriate manner by which to settle this
unpleasant business than by doing it in this committee room, by this
committee which has part of its personnel involved. For that reason,
on numerous occasions I spoke out in public, on the radio and in press
conferences, protesting against this procedure and I protested it by
my voice and by my vote in the executive sessions when we decided
to have this committee undertake the task, I hope that at some time
my colleagues on the committee will see fit to vote that the notes and
the minutes of that executive session w^iich are securely locked up
in the safe in my office, shall be made part of the public record.
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, I so move.
Senator Stmington. I second the motion.
Senator Mundt. Is there any opposition ?
By unanimous approval, we will make public, then, as fast as the
shorthand reporter can transcribe it, the notes of the opening session.
It will help to get more of the facts on the record.
May the Chair continue by saying that he is tremendously im-
pressed by the fact that a great many thoughtful Americans not
motivated by partisanship, either from a Democrat or a Republican
standpoint, are generally concerned by the fact that the Secretary
of the Army and a large group of distinguished and able and im-
portant associates, and eight members of the United States Senate
and a considerable portion of their staff, are tied up here day after
day after day after day, trying to adjudicate this wordy and unwhole-
some situation. We find ourselves, it seems to me, in a world where
the whole cause of freedom is being challenged by tremendous forces.
It is tremendously hard for the Chair to believe that in that kind of
world, with that kind of challenge, when the enemy has an atomic
bomb, when there is danger that all of our structures of civilization
can be shaken or shattered, it is terribly hard for the Chair to honestly
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION' 979
believe that this is the most important business to which the Secretary
of War, the Secretary of the Army, and his associates, and these eight
members of the Senate and their associates can devote themselves.
It seems to me, furthermore, that there should be enough give and
take, there should be enough concern about this common danger and
the effort to save in this age of survival our way of life, that wo
could find some more appropriate and speedier method for adjudi-
cating this miserable business in which we find ourselves involved.
It seems to me we should find some more constructive purpose to
which we can devote our time.
The Chair is very much impressed by the long and careful efforts
made by Senator Dirksen in proposing his series of motions. The
Chair has not supported any of them in the past because he has felt
that it is his duty as one of the adjudicators to make sure that no
formula for changing the rules, for shortening the hearings or termi-
nating them or taking them off the air should be engaged in which
any one of the three entities involved would say they considered to
be un-American or unjust or unfair.
The Chair has not voted for such resolutions in the past. The
Chair will not vote for such resolution in the future if there are entities
among us who this afternoon will say they consider an honest effort
to try to reduce the scope of this hearing to fall within the category
of injustice or dishonesty or un-Americanism or unfairness.
Having said that, the Chair would like to say that in his opinion
this is a pretty fair approach. I cannot agree at all with what Sena-
tor Jackson says when he says this denies the privilege of everybody
to be heard because this keeps the status open, this provides something
which I think this committee might well have had a long time ago,
which would have been helpful in expediting the hearings, and that
is an adequate opportunity to consult with counsel concerning the
facts he has which we do not have, because he has had a chance to
interview, he tells us, all of the principals and all of the witnesses.
I am persuaded a great deal by the fact that this provides that op-
portunity, provides us a chance to find out what has occurred in
executive session, in executive testimony.
With those full facts before us, I think we can more intelligently
decide whether more open hearings are desired or whether they are
not.
Having said that, the Chair reaffirms his position, however. He
feels that in this body of responsible men, everybody must be equally
aware of the kind of world in which we live, the kind of challenges
that confront us, the kind of duties that beg for our attention. But
if there be those among us who this afternoon are going to say they
consider this resolution to be unfair, that they consider this resolution
to be unjust, that they think that it is more important to protract and
continue these open hearings under the present system with the
present rules, going on and on, then the Chair is going to vote to sup-
port that position because they have a right to insist on their concept
of justice. But the Chair believes the responsibility for prolonga-
tion and the responsibility for protraction should be firmly fastened
upon those who say they want that to occur rather than upon the
members of this committee, who on both sides of the aisle have devoted
a tremendous amount of time, first of all, to trying to find competent
980 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
counsel, which we secured, and then determining a rule of procedure
which would be fair and equitable despite the fact that the wrong
committee is trying to do the right job, despite the fact that we have
been pushed to try to adjudicate a situation in which some of the
personnel of this committee is involved.
Then we devoted long and careful attention to try to find a format
for making the presentation of charges and countercharges. We have
been going on continuously. Unless we make some change, we are
going on continuously, and the Chair believes for many long, melan-
choly weeks in the future, during Avhich time all of us in this room
who have other responsibilities will have to deny themselves the right
to measure up to those duties because of this responsibility.
The Chair has nothing further to add.
Senator McClellan. JMr. Chairman, I would like to make just one
observation :
I have repeated over and over how I regard these charges, how
serious they are. May I say if the charges against Secretary Stevens
and his staff are true, then the presence of Secretary Stevens and
his staff here in this hearing room means that they are doing less
harm to their country while they are here than they would be doing
if they were in the Pentagon.
Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman ?
Senator Mundt. Senator Symington.
Senator Symington. Some days ago I presented that if, for the
security of the country or for any other reason, we should get ahead
with the regular business of this subcommittee, that the staff of the
subcommittee interested in those problems could be transferred to an-
other committee in order that the matters at hand, like Communists
in defense plants, could be proceeded with. I still make that recom-
mendation this morning.
I agree with my distinguished colleague from Arkansas, about the
gravity of these charges. Very grave charges have been made against
the Army, and very grave charges have been made against the chair-
man, the chief counsel, and the executive director of this committee.
As I read this memorandum or resolution, despite those charges the
resolution provides that this committee, before these charges have
been adjudicated, should go right ahead.
That is all I have to say, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Just to keep the record straight, the Chair has
never said that these charges are not important. They are important.
The Chair does not believe they are as important as the threat from
communism abroad or the threat of communism at home. The Chair
does not believe that in this resolution is incorporated anything which
would prevent this committee from endeavoring to adjudicate and
report to the public the full set of facts, and the public has a right
to have the full set of facts. The Chair is tremendously interested in
putting those representatives of the Army who are here and these
representatives of the Senate who are here back on the job of survival
and protecting this country. The Chair wants it clearly understood
that if these hearings are protracted, he will be here, and he believes
we should meet morning and afternoon and nights and Saturdays
from now on if we are going to continue them, if they are that im-
SPECIAL IN\^ESTIGATION 981
portant. He will be here, but he will be here with tears in his eyes,
because he believes there are other duties to which everybody involved
in this controversy should be devoting himself. I hope and I pray that
during the noon hour men will search their souls and their consciences
to determine whether there is not something more important than try-
ing to protract these things in public as we have been, and still with-
out doing violence to justice, find some other way to adjudicate the
controversy.
The Chair says now, so that all parties will know, if j^ou say to me
at 2 : 30 you think this is unfair to take off television and off the air
and change the rules, the chairman is going to vote to provide for
those who insist upon it that which they consider to be equity and
justice and fairness in the form of procedure.
Senator Stiviington. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Senator Potter is recognized. I am sorry.
Senator Symington. I beg your pardon.
Senator Potter. Mr. Chairman, I think in all of this discussion we
have missed the main point. We are trying to ascertain facts as a
result of charges made on the part of personnel in the Army and
countercharges made on the part of Senator McCarthy and members of
his staff. We never promised that we were going to run in competition
with INlilton Berle. We only promised that we would ascertain the
facts and let the public know the facts. What concerns me is the
belief that public opinion in this country is not favorable to this
type of public brawl. They want to know the facts, but they are not
interested in having the dignity of the United States Senate, the dig-
nity of the administration, being lowered with each day of this hear-
ing. Our prestige abroad has greatly suffered as a result of these
hearings. I think we must take into consideration any vehicle to
ascertain the facts, and do it as quickly as possible, so that the prestige
of this great Nation of ours will not unduly suffer as a result of this
public diplay of personality clashes between the legislative branch of
our Government and the executive branch of our Government.
I sincerely hope that we can devise a vehicle which will ascertain all
the facts and do it quickly, so that we can get on with the more im-
portant business of our Government and so that our prestige at home
and abroad will again have the place in the sunlight which it deserves.
Senator Mundt. Senator Symington, you addressed the Chair?
Senator Symington. I vranted to just set the record straight. If in
any way — I don't think I did — but if in any way I implied that you
did not think these charges on both sides were grave, I most humbly
apologize for that implication, because I never thought it and I did
not mean to say it.
Senator Mundt. I am sure you didn't say it and I am sure you didn't
imply it, but I wasn't sure but what the television audience didn't
imply it or infer it from what you said.
I think they are serious. But I do not think they are the most serious
business confronting the United States today. While I think that
every person in this room who is involved in the controversy should
have and must have a full chance to maintain his reputation and
defense, that more important than individuals and more important
982 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
than reputations is the future of America, and we have some pretty
serious business to be done. We are at the crossroads now and will
determine this afternoon whether we are going to find a way to shorten
these hearings which the parties to the dispute will consider fair and
equitable, or whether we set our teeth into this thing for another 2
months, perhaps, and perhaps longer, while the interminably long
list of witnesses is called up and discussed in public, and at the con-
clusion we make a report, as we wonld make it under any of the pro-
posals before us, whether it be the McClellan or the Dirksen motion,
or if we want to continue on ad infinitum.
I think we are now ready to interview the witness.
Senator McCarthy. ]\Ir. Chairman ?
Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy.
Senator McCarthy. I hesitate taking any time at all after we spent
about 2 hours talking about how we are going to rush this thing
through. But I would like to make my position crystal clear. As far
as I am concerned, as the Chair knows, I did not initiate this. It
was initiated by Mr. Stevens and Mr. Adams.
As far as I am concerned, I will lean over backwards to do anything
humanly possible to try and close up this circus so we can get back
to the work of digging Communists out of Government, graft, cor-
ruption, and fraud. That is the work of the committee.
The only reason why I am not passing upon Senator Dirksen's mo-
tion this morning is that I would, during the noon hour, like to get
the interpretation of some of the language in it so we won't have a
long drawn out hassel about this at some future date, period.
Senator Muxdt, It is 12 : 25, if the Chair's watch is correct. I
don't know if we should start for 5 minutes. Senator Jackson sug-
gests we go around for one round of questions.
We will certainly go around until 12 : 30. Mr. Jenkins ?
Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman, I have no questions to ask the
Secretary.
]Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman ?
Senator Mundt. The Chair will pass. Mr. Welch ?
]\Ir. Welch. I would like to make a remark about the Secretary,
if I may, and about his physical condition.
Senator Mundt. I think under the latitude which we have extended
ourselves, this morning, sir, you should have that right.
Mr. Welch. Thank you.
At the conclusion of the hearings yesterday, the Secretary went to
his home, to me a very unusual thing. In the course of the evening
I called Mrs. Stevens and I learned that he liad had a shot of penicil-
lin yesterday because of a virus infection. He had concealed that from
me in what' I considered to be typical fashion. It was given to him
by an Army doctor.
I asked her if he had a personal physician and she said, "No, but
I have." I said, "Would you have your personal physician look at
the Secretary this evening?" That was done and the same physician
looked at him again this morning. That physician reported that the
Senator could go on.
Senator Jackson. The Secretary.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 983
Mr. Welch. That the Secretary could ^o on. I have learned in
the course of the morning that the Secretary has today had a second
shot of penicillin. He attempted to conceal that from me. He wants
to say "I am feeling fine. I can go on for 30 days, if need be." But
1, while I somewhat admire him, I am not totally convinced that he
feels as fine as he would like to have you believe.
It seems to me that it would be a gracious act for the committee to
say now that we will suspend with the Secretary at least until he is
through his penicillin shots, and that we would take up the testi-
mony of some other principal. Observe, if you will, the word
principal.
I do not think we ought to go off into collateral witnesses, if the
Secretary is excused at this moment, but there are other principals
leady whose interrogation could begin.
Senator ]\IcCartiiy. Mr. Chairman, may I say that this is one of
the few times that I agree with Mr. Welch. If the Secretary has
been having penicillin shots, if he has a virus infection, he should
not be on this witness stand. I think I should make it clear for
the record, however, that when we talk about 13 days, that that is
rather a deceptive figure. Take, for example, we will give him credit
for being on the stand a half-day today. It was taken up by speeches
on how we can cut this short. But I do say that if the Secretary has
been receiving treatment for any ailment, such as a virus, I know what
it is like, I think it would be completely unfair to him, unfair to
the committee, to have him testify. So far as I am concerned, I would
have no objection at all to his stepping down now until such time
that he feels that he would like to return to the stand.
Senator Muxdt. It seems to me, Senator Jackson, with that ex-
planation, which you didn't have when you suggested that we con-
tinue now
Senator Jackson. And which I didn't know about, of course. I
acted on the Secretary's statement that he was feeling well.
Senator Muxdt. And the further fact that it is virtually 12 : 30 ; the
Chair would like to suggest this, that it would not be necessary, in
order to get answers to the questions that the Chair is going to ask
before we pass on this resolution, and Senator McClellan agrees that
I should ask, it would not be necessary for the Secretary to be here at
2 : 30 unless he wants to be for that purpose. I think Mr. Welch can
confer with him through the noon hour. Let me implore this, now,
and then we are going to adjourn, that let me implore Mr. Hensel,
Senator McCarthy, Secretary Stevens, Mr. Welch, and Mr. Bryan who
speaks for Mr. Hensel, that all of you will go to your respective shops
during the lunch hour and hold yourself carefully in readiness to con-
sult if you want to with Senator Dirksen or our counsel. If there are
some modifications in this that would enable you to then say it is fair
and just, I hope you will make them, or if you feel it is fair and just
now, I hope you will say so. The Chair does not believe that there
is much to be gained after 2 : 30 this afternoon, again trying to change
the rules of procedures if we set ourselves to this grim business from
now until the Fourth of July or whenever it is completed. Counsel
will be available. Senator Dirksen will be available, and they are the
two that sit on the committee. If you have any suggested changes or
984 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
reports, at 2 : 30, we will take this up, and, Mr. Stevens, you will not
be called as a witness this afternoon. You can authorize Mr. Welch
to speak for you.
Senator JMcCarthy. Mr. Chairman, may I suji;gest also that when
we meet this afternoon that we find out how the various parties feel
about this, that we vote on it and that we not waste day after day after
day bj long-winded campaign speeches.
Senator Mundt. The Chair certainly believes we can vote this after-
noon. He is not going to undertake to deny Senators the right to be
heard. However, we will meet at 2 : 30 this afternoon.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 30 p. m., the hearing recessed, to reconvene at
2 : 30 the same day.)
INDEX
rage
Adams, John G 982
Army (United States) 971, 977, 978, 980, 981
Berle, Milton .- 981
Bryan, Frederick P 977, 983
Communists 973, 980, 982
Department of the Army 971, 977, 978, 980, 981
Dirksen, Senator 969, 979, 982, 983
Dirksen resolution 969
Eisenhower, President 977
Federal Government 977, 981, 982
Government of the United States 977, 981, 982
Hensel, H. Struve 983
Jackson, Senator 979, 982
MacArthur hearings 974
McCarthv, Senator Joe 970-974, 976, 977, 981-984
McClellan, Senator 976, 983
Military installations 973
Military personnel 973, 974
Pentagon 980
President of the United States 977
Secretary of the Army 970, 974-977, 979, 980, 982-984
Secretary of War 979
Senate of the United States 978-980, 981
Stevens, Robert T 970, 974, 979, 980, 982-984
Testimony of 975-977
United States Army 971, 977, 978, 980, 981
United States Government 977, 981, 982
United States President 977
United States Secretary of War 979
United States Senate 978-980, 981
I
o
(
SPECIAL SENATE INVESTIGATION ON CHARGES
AND COUNTERCHARGES INVOLVING: SECRE-
TARY OF THE ARMY ROBERT T. STEVENS, JOHN
G. ADAMS, H. STRUVE HENSEL AND SENATOR
JOE McCarthy, roy m. cohn, and
FRANCIS p. CARR
HEARING
BEFOKE THE
SPECIAL SUBCOMMIHEE ON
INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON
GOVERNMENT 0PKEATI0N8
UNITED STATES SENATE
EIGHTY-THIED CON<iEESS
SECOND SESSION
PUKSUANT TO
S. Res. 189
PART 27
MAY 11, 1954
Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Operations
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
46620" WASHINGTON : 1954
Boston Public i^. ;rary
Superintendetit of Documents
SEP 8 -1954
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
JOSEPH K. McCarthy, Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas
MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Maine HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, Minnesota
HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington
EVERETT Mckinley DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan ALTON A. LENNON, North Carolina
Richard J. O'Melia, General Coitnxel
Walteb L. Resnolds, Chief Clerk
Special Subcommittee on Investigations
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota, Chairman
EVERETT MCKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington
HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri
Ray H. Jenkins, Chief Counsel
THOMAS R. Prewitt, Assistant Counsel
ROBERT A. CoLLiEB, Assistant Counsel
SoLis Horwitz, Assistant Counsel
Charles A. Maneu, Secretary
n
CONTENTS
Page
[ndex I
III
SPECIAL SENATE INVESTIGATION ON CHAEGE8 AND
COUNTERCHARGES INVOLVING: SECRETARY OF THE
ARMY ROBERT T. STEVENS, JOHN G. ADAMS, H. STRUVE
HENSEL AND SENATOR JOE MCCARTHY, ROY M.COHN,
AND FRANCIS P. CARR
TUESDAY, MAY 11, 1954
United States Senate,
Special Subcommittee on Investigations of the
Committee on Government Operations,
Washington^ D. d
AFTER RECESS
(The committee reconvened at 2 : 50 p. m., pursuant to recess.)
Present : Senator Karl E. Munclt, Republican, South Dakota, chair-
man ; Senator Everett McKinley Dirksen, Republican, Illinois ; Sen-
ator Charles E. Potter, Republican, Michigan; Senator Henry C.
Dworshak, Republican, Idaho ; Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat,
Arkansas; Senator Henry M. Jackson, Democrat, Washington; and
Senator Stuart Symington, Democrat, Missouri.
Also present: Ray H. Jenkins, chief counsel to the subcommittee;
Thomas R. Prewitt, assistant counsel ; and Ruth Y. Watt, chief clerk.
Also present : Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, a United States Sen-
ator from the State of Wisconsin ; Roy M. Cohn, clijef counsel to the
subcommittee ; Francis P. Carr, executive director of the subcommit-
tee; Hon. Robert T. Stevens, Secretary of the Army; John G. Adams,
Counselor to the Army; Joseph N. Welch, special counsel for the
Army; James D. St. Clair, special counsel for the Army; and Fred-
erick P. Bryan, counsel to H. Struve Hensel, Assistant Secretary of
Defense.
Senator Mundt. The committee will come to order.
As is his custom, the Chair will start by welcoming the guests who
have come to our committee room, and reminding them that they are
here as the guests of the committee and, consequently, must comply
with one standing rule that the committee has asked the Chair to
enforce. That is, there are to be no audible manifestations of ap-
proval or disapproval from any member of the audience at any time
or in any way. The officers in the room have been instructed by the
Chair and by the committee to politely escort from the room, without
any further orders, anybody who violates the conditions under which
you enter this chamber as our guests. You know what they are. No
audible manifestations of approval or disapproval at any time in
any way.
985
98G SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
The committee will come to order, and under the arrangements under
■which we recessed, the Chair was to recognize Senator Dirksen to dis-
cuss his motion or to propose his motion, if he has made any changes in
it during the course of the luncheon hour.
Senator Dirksen. Mr. Chairman, two minor modifications have
been made in the motion as it was presented this morning. The first
one, of course, is the elimination of the words "for rebuttal" in line 6
or 7, in line 6 of the resolution submitted this morning; and there has
been inserted after the word "forthwith" the words "and a full and
complete transcript of such" and then "testimony."
Those are the only two modifications made in the resolution.
Senator McClellaNj Wliat are the insertions, "forthwith" with
what?
Senator Dirksen. In line 6, the words "for rebuttal" have been taken
out so the language Avill read "requested by any principal may be called
in executive session forthwith," and then afterward, after "forthwith,"
the words inserted "and a full and complete transcript of." So it
reads : "and a full and complete transcript of such testimony be made
public immediately."
Mr. Chairman, there is little that I need to say with respect to this
motion other than what I observed this morning, with the exception of
one thing. I think some question arose as to whether or not tlie con-
tinuity of testimony might be disturbed by a meeting in executive ses-
sion. I had no such thought in mind, because if, for instance, this
resolution were adopted and Senator McCarthy took the stand, cer-
tainly it would not mean that the continuity of his testimony be dis-
turbed throughout the day. This contemplates, of course, that any
executive session that may be held would be held at the end of the
day so as not to intrude upon the testimony of the witness.
I think I ought to make that clear.
Senator Mundt. I think all of the members of the committee dis-
cussed this motion pretty fulsomely this morning, but certainly tlie
Chair has no disposition to deny to any Senator the right to comment
on it further if he cares to before he goes around the table to discuss
with the various entities involved in this controversy whether they
consider it is in the interest of fairness and equity or whether they
protest against it as being sometliing which they consider the com-
mittee may have devised which is unfair or unjust.
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Senator McClellan ?
Senator McCiiEixAN. Do you intend to ask the principals the ques-
tion you have said you would ask them ?
Senator Mundt. I do, sir, the principals or their counsel.
Senator McClellan. I would like to have their answer before I
comment on it.
Senator Mundt. Very well. The Chair has said publicly and wants
to reiterate now in his own words that while he feels individually and
personally that Senator Dirksen has evolved a formula for shortening
these hearings which persuades the Chair to consider it in the interest
of expedition and in the public interest because it does not close the
hearings, it reserves to the Chair and to the committee acting together
the right to reopen them at any time and in any way, and it does put
in balance the testimony up to the time that we switch into a different
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION" 987
procedure because it provides that Senator McCarthy must testify
under oath before any change is made in the program. The Chair
has held if there are entities here who through their counsel feel that
this would l3e something unjust or unfair, the Chair would not vote
for such a procedure. He wants this committee to continue to com-
mand the respect of the participants in the controversy, and the public,
and he thinks he can do that only if whatever arrangement is finally
made, whether it seems to be satisfactory or unsatisfactory for others,
is considered by the people involved to be in the interest of fairness.
With that background he wants to go around the table, starting first
with Senator ]\IcCartliy, and ask him whether in his opinion if we
adopt this resolution and if the Chair votes for it, he feels that he has
confidence enough in what is set out in that resolution and in the com-
mittee and the way it will be interpreted so that he would not protest
against it on the basis of its being unfair or unjust.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman ?
Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy.
Senator McCarthy. May I make a request of the Chair? I have
agreed to so many succeeding proposed agreements to cut down the
length of the hearing and get back to our work, and I find that the
very able counsel, Mr. Welch, for reasons which I am sure he con-
siders completely valid — and I am sure he has been completely honest
in this — has disagreed. Before I start agreeing to my 29th agreement,
I would like to know whether or not it is acceptable to Mr. Welch.
Otherwise, we are just wasting our time.
Senator Mundt. The Chair ])roposes to go around the triangle in
the same order that he has been going around this path for some time
now. He would appreciate it if the Senator from Wisconsin would,
on his own individual responsibility, say insofar as he is concerned
whether he would consider this as unfair or unjust because, as he
knows, and as the ( hair has expressed himself, if either Mr. Hensel or
Mr. Welch says it is unfaii or unjust, regardless of what the Senator
says, then the Chair will not vote in favor of such a resolution.
Senator McCarthy. I will be glad to do that, Mr. Chairman. I am
speaking not only for myself but for the two young men on my staff
who have been implicated in this matter. They have told me I could
speak for them. I^t me say that I heartily approve of that portion
of the resolution which provides that I must take the stand under oath
and be subject to complete and full cross-examination. I think any-
thing less than that would leave the public disturbed, not satisfied.
I am somewhat disturbed about those portions which provide for
executive session testimony. May I say the reason for that has
nothing to do with my confidence in the committee. I think that we
have had better press coverage of this hearing, more accurate coverage,
let's put it that way, than any other hearing I have been in. I believe
one of the reasons for that has been the influence of television, because
when millions of people see what is going on, they pick up their
paper, they don't quite like what some of the left-wingers say — I
would like to say this is no reflection upon the vast number of working
press, men who visit my office every day, who are completely honest,
completely competent. I am referring to some of the bleeding heart
columnists. Television has kept them straightened out a bit. For
that reason I approved of this all being on television. However, if
988 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
the committee thinks that this will shorten the hearinjifs so that we
can ^et back to the work which we should be doins:, I would say that
I will be more than happy to rely upon the jiulj^ment of the -vote of
the committee and will make no objection. That goes for Mr, Carr —
rifjht, Frank?
Mr. Carr. That is riijht.
Senator McCARiiiy. Does it go for you, Koy ? It goes for Mr. Carr,
Mr. Colin and myself, period.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Bryan, over the lunch hour you have had
opportunity, I presume, to consult with your client. I would like to
direct the same question to you. Now that you have had an oppor-
tunity to read this resolution, I would like to inquire of you whether,
on tlie basis of the resolution as it is presented to you, and your
knoAvledge of the committee and its counsel, whether you would have
contidence that this procedure could operate without doing injury
to your client from the standpoint of being unfair or unjust.
Mr. Bryan. Mr. Chairman, I have had an opportunity to confer
with my client, and, as I anticipated, my client's views just are entirely
the same as mine were when the resolution was presented this morning.
Tou will recall that I asked for an opportunity to confer with him
only for the reason that he hadn't seen the resolution. I was quite
confident as to what his views would be. Mr. Hensel's position is
unchanged. Certain unsupported charges have been made against
him in the answer filed by Senator McCarthy to the so-called Army
charges which were presented to this committee. These charges have
been categorically denied by Mr. Hensel. No proof has been offered
in support of these charges. As a matter of fact, the testimony thus
far, in my judgment, contradicts them. We know the facts and we
know that these charges cannot be supported. As I pointed out yes-
terday, there is thus far not the slightest evidence in this record to
support them. Having made the charges, it is up to a man who makes
charges to prove them. In this country at least, thank God, a person
is not yet required to undertake the burden of proving his innocence
of unsupported charges made aginst him without proof. I say to this
committee, Mr. Chairman, and to the members of this committee,
that there is and can be no proof in sup])ort of these charges, and at
the approi)riate time I will move before this committee to dismiss
the charges as to Mr. Hensel on the merit for complete failure of proof,
and I confidently expect this committee will grant such a motion.
The charges will then stand as unproven. I, therefore, see no reason
for Mr. Hensel, under present circumstances, or foreseeable circum-
stances, to oppose this resolution. We are consequently willing to go
along with it. However, I Misli to make it very plain that if there
is any evidence put into this record designed to implicate Mr. Hensel,
I reserve the right to refute such evidence by the testimony of Mr.
Hensel himself and such other witnesses as we may deem necessary
to call. Under such circumstances, I -will insist that Mr. Hensel be
heard just as anyone who bears witness against him has been heard by
this committee.
Senator Mundt. Let me be precisely sure, now, that the Chair under-
stands your reply. It is my responsibility inasnnich as my vote is
actually being sort of cast by proxy, either by Senator McCarthy
or by you or by Mr. Welch, in the interest of fairness and justice.
Does the Chair take it from that, as he thinks he does, that you raise
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 989
1)0 protest at this time to this proposed proceeding on the basis of it
beiiijr unfair or unjust?
Mr. BuYAN. You specifically asked me, Mr. Chairman, whether in
my view the resolution violates any ])riuciples of fairness, justice
or equity as far as my clients is concerned.
Senator Ml'ndt. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Bhyan. I reply to you, as far as my client is concerned, with
the reservations I made and that I think are quite plain, I do not con-
sider that the resolution is objectionable from that point of view.
Senator Mundt, Thank you, sir.
Now Mr. Welch, may I repeat what I have said as best I can to
each of the other two members of the counsel. The Chair would like
to know, because he has stated |)ublicly how his vote will be determined
on this issue, whetlier or not in your opinion, after having read the
|)roposed Dirkseu resolution as modi lied, you would feel and your
client would feel that you have confidence enough in the procedures
set forth and in Ihis committee in its capacity to interpret this,
so that you would not protest against this ])rocedure on the basis of its
being unfair or unjust to your client.
Mr. Wfxcii. Mr. Chairman, this is not an easy moment for me.
I came down from Boston in the guise of a sim])le trial lawyer. 1
supposed 1 would try to dig up some (piestions to ask witnesses and
then if I didn't like the answer, ask another one.
Instead of getting a chance to do that sort of thing, I listened to
these remarks here of the future of our country, and how grave all
this is, and then somebody says to Mr. Welch, "Won't you make some
kind of a decision?" When we get to that moment, I kind of wish
I were back in Boston, just as I suspect Mr. Jenkins kind of wishes at
times he were back in Tennessee.
Now I have in my family a virus and some penicillin and so forth,
and I have temi)orarily lost contact with my client. When I had con-
tact with him, he said to me that some three and a half lines near the
bottom of this resolution could come out, and those I will read :
* * with tlie understanding that no investigation of military installations or
personnel shall be undertaken until the subcommittee has concluded the pending
investigation.
Mr. Stevens asked me to say that he had no desire to insist on those
words, and that he was always in favor of any investigation properly
conducted of the military so that he would do without those words.
Now as tr the resolution, exce])t for that, Mr. Stevens took the posi-
tion this morning that he wotdd abide, as I recall his statement, by any
decision this committee made, but that he felt that a full and fair
hearing in the open was recpiired.
1 cannot recede from that position without an opportunity to con-
sult with him, which I think 1 should have. His position was clear,
and I did not come back expecting to find a new resolution. I will
say one thing, that Senator McCarthy and I are the very closest to
an understanding between each of them that we have ever been. l)e-
cause he said that lie was somewhat disturbed by the portion of this
ruling calling for executive hearings and I am equally disturbed.
It does seem to me, Mr. Chairman, that as to the five principals it
would be far better to have their statements heard in public as was
the case with Mr. Stevens.
46620*— 54— pt. 27 2
990 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
You will recall that to some extent Mr. Adams has been on the stand
so that the committee could see him, and 1 nmst say two members of
what I should call the opposition have been on the stand shortly.
But Senator McCarthy, I do share your uneasiness about that por-
tion calling for executive hearings. My own feeling would be that
the country, this committee, would be happier if we dealt with the
five principals plus such subsidiary witnesses as are naturally called
to check their principal testimony in open hearing and then that we
could have all kinds of flocks of afiidavits as to how many passes Mr.
Schine had, under what circumstances or things of that sort. 1 here-
fore, my position is as follows, Mr. Chariman:
Without consultation with my client and what you might call an
order from him to agree to this proposed resolution, I can only say
that there is no change that I am aware ot, as I sit here, from his
position this morning. , , , i ^i o 4. 5
Senator Mundt. May the Chair say that he heard the Secretary s
statement this morning. He noted in his statement that there was
no mention of whether the Secretary considered this to be an untair
or uniust procedure. He noted the Secretary did express approval
and a preference for hearing all of the witnesses m open session, i he
Chair has not quite had an answer from you, sir, as to whether you, on
behalf of vour client, under all the circumstances and after having
studied the resolution, whether you want to interpose an objection to
this on the basis that you or your client would consider this to be an
unfair or an unjust procedure. „,.,.., j- I
Mr Welch. Mr. Chairman, with all humility, sir, because ot your j
very brave statement of how you will vote de])ending upon the ans^yer >
to that, I think I ought not to answer that without consultation with
my client.
Senator MuNDT. I think that is appropriate.
May I inquire whether your client is where he can be reached by
telephone so you could confer with him now ? We would like to vote
this resolution either up or down, and get on with the business, it
possible. We have taken a long time in discussing it.
I was very much in hopes you could be in consultation with your
client during the noon hour. , , i 3
Mr. Welch. We were, but you see, a new and somewhat changed
resolution has come up. I believe I could reach him by telephone if
you would like me to. . . .
Senator Muf^nx. I would surely very much appreciate it, because it
you are going to cast my proxy, both you and 1 want it to be cast intel-
ligently.
There is a private telephone right here, sir.
Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman
Senator Mundt. How to get there?
Mr. Welch. For one thing, how do I get there, and I would just
as soon go to some other telephone. [Laughter.]
Senator Mundt. Surely. We will be in recess while you do.
(Brief recess.)
Senator Mundt. The committee will come back to order, please.
Mr. Welch has returned to the committee room. The Chair, as
always, will be happy to hear Mr. Welch.
Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, due to the wonderful invention of tele-
vision, the Secretary was able to follow what had happened.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 991
Senator Mlnut. That is the be?t compliment TV lias had yet.
Wonderful.
Mr. Wki-cif. He was therefore ready to talk. He said that there
did not seem to him to be sufficient chan<;e in the resolution from this
morniiijT to alter the statement that he then made. I siJi)])ose that is
all you need to hear from him. We talked at some "[reater length, but
that is the substance, the important substance of what he had to say.
Senator AIunut. Of course, Mr. Welch, you leave the ('hair very
much in doubt with that type of statement, because he listened very
carefully to what the Secretary had to say this morninc;, and from
the standpoint of its relevancy there is one factor that Aveighs most
iieavily in the mind of the (chairman, and that is, regardless of
whether any entities to this dispute feel that these suggestions will
expedite the hearings, move them more quickly, move them more satis-
factorily, the ('hair is interested primarily and I might say basically
as to whether or not any parties to this dispute feel that making this
effort and this attem]:)t will in their opinion do violence to them from
the standpoint of equity and justice. 1 am sure that you must have
discussed this with the Secretary, and the Chair very much hopes that
you will give him iin answer on which he can base his vote.
Mr. Welch, Mr. Chairman. 1 did not need to he clairvoyant to be
able to say to the Secietary, "You know what the Chair is going to
ask me." He said. "Yes, I do." I said, "Well, what is your answer
to that?" I think I quote him accurately when I say he said, "Well,
primarily it is up to the committee to decide what is fair and just
and equitable, but 1 don't myself think it is fair and just and equitable
that I should be stuck on the stand for 14 days and tihat one or two of
the parties on the other side, and perhaps one on my side, Mr. Adams,
should never be there at all."
So I dealt with it. Mr. Mundt, and that is what he said.
Senator Poitrk. Mr. (^hairmaii.
Senator Mundt. Senator Potter?
Senator PorrER. Let's plow that long, hard furrow.
Senator Mundt. It is still a little hard for the Chair to get a specific
answer to a specific question, which he would like very much to have,
because he proposes to try to cast a specific vote.
Senator Jackson. May I ask
Senator Mundt. May I ask you, then, Mr. Welcli, speaking on the
basis of your consultation with the Secretary, and si)eakiiig as his
counsel, whether you would at this time enter a ])rotest against this
procedure on the basis that you feel it Avould be unfair and unjust?
Mr. AVelcti. Mr. Chairman, I am not so sure it is fair or just to
Welch to say that to him. I reported what my client's position is, sir.
I would rather not add anything to that. It seems to me that what
he said was quite clear. If this conunittee in its wisdom decides to run
these hearings this way, 3'ou will see a kind of feeble grin from Mr.
Welch and a smile from the Secretary when he is better and back.
We Avill accept any decision that is made, gracefully. But I do not
propose to sit at this microphone and use any form of words which
could later be interpreted as my having made a deal about this
decision.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. May the Chair finish this, please.
992 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Since the Chair's vote is involved in this he feels he has a ri<rht to
interrof];ate the witness and try to find out exactly how his proposed
proxy is interpretino; the question which he asks. It is a little difficult,
sir, for the (yhair to be sure as to what the Secretary has in mind if
you who talked with him are not sure what he had in mind. So you
can tell me whether you are now sayinj^, either on your own re])re-
sentation or his, that you believe if the Chair were to vote for this
proposal, you would consider it to be an unfair or an unjust practice.
Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, 1 will tell you what I will say, and
that is I have another dime in my pocket if you want me to go put
it in the phone again.
Senator MuNDT. I wish you would do that, sir, because 1 would like
to have an answer to my question so I can vote as I told the American
people I would. Will you please call again and we will give you
another 10 minutes.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. We stand in recess.
Senator McCarthy. P'or my information can I ask this question :
I wonder if I was misinformed over the noon hour. I stayed in my
office and got a sizable number of calls from Senators who were
honestly trying to cut this short. I was informed that the changes
that were made in the resolution presented this morning, with the
exception of one, were made on the request of Mr. Welch. Mr. Welch
now comes back and says this is a new resolution as far as he is con-
cerned.
Senator Mundt. You are asking questions which the Chair cer-
tainly cannot answer because this is not his motion. He is trying to
determine how to vote on a motion. He has made a commitment,
perhaps an uuAvise one, but he has said that if any of the entities to
this dispute are going to state that they considered this, what the
Chair considers reasonable effort to bring this to a more expeditious
conclusion, if they say it is unfair or unjust, the Chair will not vote
for such a proposal.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Since we are in recess and have asked Mr. Welch
to leave, I feel Ave should not discuss it publicly while he is away.
Senator McCarthy. Could I have the Chair's attention until Mr.
Welch returns. I think this is very important. I am led to believe
certain things occurred during the noon hour. I was led to believe —
I reluctantly agreed to Mr. Welch's suggestions. I would like to know
whether or not they were liis suggestions and if they were, why this
stage play. I would like to have the Chair's attention when Mr.
Welch returns.
Senator Mundt. The committee will come to order. Mr. Welch
has returned to the committee room and the Chair will be very pleased
to hear from him at this time.
Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, what the Secretary said is in two parts :
A. he does not wish to accept from the Chairman a proxy to cast your
vote. He thinks, Mr. Chairman, that that is outside his province.
Secondly, as to fairness, he says, "I continue in my view that the pro-
posed resolution would not result in fairness."
Senator Mundt. He says he thinks it would not result in fairness?
Mr. Welch. Would not.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 993
Senator Mdndt. The Chair is certainly then prepared to vote. Is
tliere other discussion ?
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman?
Senator Mundt. Are we ready for the vote ?
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman?
Senator Mundt. Senator McClellan.
Senator McClefxan. Senator McCarthy was addressing the Chair
first, and I do not wish to interrupt him.
Senator McCarthy. If the Chair is ready for a vote, I will be glad
to defer this, but I am completely
Senator Mundt. Suppose you wait until after we have voted if it
isn't on this particular point, because we will then resume the com-
mittee business.
Senator McCarthy. This might be enlightening to the committee,
however.
Senator Mundt. If it is on this point the Chair has secured for
himself the information he needs, but other committee members might
require some more. The Chair would be glad to hear it.
Senator McCarthy. Let me ask this : I think the Chair and counsel
know what I am about to discuss. Would you prefer I w^ait until after
the vote? If so, I will be glad to.
Senator Mundt. Senator McClellan.
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, I have previously announced
that I would, and I do now, oppose the resolution or motion submitted
by the Senator from Illinois. It may be, Mr. Chairman, that the die
is cast and that this motion is destined to pass. I do not know. But
before voting on it, each of us has to take the responsibility for inter-
preting it, and trying to understand how it will operate and what its
consequences will be. I have undertaken to do that. May I say
this, Mr. Chairman : I believe I have proper and due deference for
all and to all of the parties to this controversy, but I may say that
their opinion of w4iat is fair and unfair did not have to be invoked
or brought into play by me, to place my interpretation on this resolu-
tion, its effect, and its consequences. I took into account, Mr. Chair-
man, what I conceive to be the other party in interest to this contro-
versy, the American people, and the welfare of our Government. I
have undertaken to interpret it, and I give you my interpretation
of it. No. 1, it is not a formula for expediting these hearings; it is
a formula for stopping, for suppressing, public hearings which this
committee unanimously voted at the time the hearings were ordered.
Xo. 2, it denies to the principals, Mr. Adams, Mr. Cohn, ]\Ir. Carr, and
Mr. Hensel, the o]-)port unity to defend under oath in public the serious
charges that have been made against (hem, and denies them the oppor-
tunity to face their accusers in public, or to sustain the grave and
serious charges they have made against each other by giving public
testimony under oath to support and to sustain those charges.
Mr. Chairman, this is not just a right, just a right of the parties to
this controversy, of the principals, but it is their solemn obligation
and duty to do it, a duty that if they undertake to shirk it, the full
power, insofar as this committee has it, should be exercised to com-
pel them to do it.
Third, this resolution in effect proposes that tliis committee under-
take to resolve tliose grave issues on the report of counseFs interviews
994 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
of witnesses, including principals to this controversy. As an alter-
native to that, or in addition to that, that we proceed in executive
hearinj^s.
Mr. Chairman, there is not one indication that if this joh is to be
done and be done thorou<2;hly and completely that executive hearings
will shorten the proceedings. There is not the slightest indication
of it. 80 what is the purpose of it? Whether the author of it so
intended or not. and I certainly charge no bad faith, the results and
(•onse(juences will be to carry on this investigation out of view of the
public that is interested, away from the press who is entitled to be
])resent, and some one has referred to television, out of the view
of television.
I am not so concerned about television. What is the objection?
I did not invite them here, but what is the objection? We are per-
forming a public duty, a public trust, I may say, one of the most un-
])leasant and one of the most disagreeable ones I have ever had to
perform in the course of my public service.
Mr. President, I cannot vote for it. If it is adopted, if this resolu-
tion IS adopted, in my opinion it will be a flagrant travesty on Amer-
ican standards of justice and equity, committed by this committee in
the name and to the discredit of the United States Senate.
Mr. President, Mr. Chairman, in the interest of expediting these
hearings to a fair and just and equitable conclusion, I therefore offer
as a substitute the following motion: That after each of the princi-
pals to this controversy has testified in chief, and if I may comment
there, Mr, President, that i.s, to have the opportunity to present their
case before they are cross-examined, that each member of the sub-
committee have 1 hour, six 10-minute periods each, for the interroga-
tion of the witness, and that each ]n'incipal side or their attorney,
have 4 hours each for interrogating said principal witness. The
counsel for the committee shall contijuie to question such witnesses
under existing rules. And when all such time has ex{)ired, the wit-
7iess shall be excused.
That is the motion, Mr. Chaii-man, that I offer as a substitute. And
may I say this, that it will fix a time limit. It is quite a long time,
T know. I am not trying to deny anyone full opportunity to get the
facts out on the table, to let the truth be known. And if anyone would
seriously insist that this time limit is too short, I would consider
amending it or modifying it to make the time longer.
Senator McCarthy. Will the Senator yield?
Senator McClellan. But may I say this, Mr. Chairman, as to the
time reserved to me for 1 h-jur for each witness, at six 10-minute peri-
ods, I intend to continue in most instances to ]>ass, to save that much
time. But this, if we are interested, Mr. Chairman, in bringing this
hearing to a final conclusion at some time, this just applies to the
principals, we can bring it to a conclusion with every one of the
ju'incipals treated fairly and equitable, and we can perform our duty
consistently with the standards of procedure and justice that are
customarily followed, traditionally followed, in Anierican jurispru-
dence.
Senator Mundt. Would the Senator consider the request of the
Chair that he do not offer his amendment as a substitute, but permit a
vote to be held on the Dirksen amendment, which it seems to me has
SPECIAL INVf:STIGATION 995
a right to be heard on its own merits, and then offer his as a separate
resolution immediately thereafter, assuming the Dirksen amendment
fails?
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mun»t. This suggestion is in the interest of giving each
motion a chance to be lieard on its own merits.
Senator McClellan. If 1 am assured — I don't know what the out-
come of tlie Dirksen amendment vote will be. If it should be a(lo})ted,
theii I could not offer this motion. I only ofl'er it now as a substitute
so that the committee can take its choice between the two. If it rejects
mine, then, of course, there would be no vote on the Dirksen resolution.
Vice versa, if it adopts the Dirksen resolution, I could get no vote on
this substitute.
If there is any way to vote on the two, I am ready.
Senator Mundt. The Chair recognizes, of course, the right of the
Senator to offer his amendment as a substitute, but having in mind
the effort we went to to determine the attitude of all the entities on the
particular proposition before us, the Chair felt it might be better to
have a vote on each on its own merits rather than having diffusion of
the issue involved. Certainly if the Senator insists on offering it as
a substitute
Senator McClellan. May I ask this, Mr. Chairman. I am not
trj'ing to obstruct or to insist upon any particular technicalities.
Senator Mundt. The Chair understands perfectly.
Senator McClellan. I just do not want to be foreclosed from a vote
by this connniitee on this proposal. If the Chair will seek and get
unanimous consent that the Dirksen resolution be voted on first, and
then, irrespective of the outcome of that vote, that this resolution
then will be the next order of business and be voted on, then I have no
objection to following the Chair's suggestion.
Senator Mundt. The Chair will undertake to solicit such unanimity
if he can. May we have unanimous consent on behalf of the subcom-
mittee that, regardless of the vote on the Dirksen amendment, we will
then vote on the McClellan proposal?
Senator Dirksen. I object.
Senator Mundt. You object.
Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Senator Symington.
Senator Symington. I believe that Senator McClellan, in case the
Dirksen amendment wins, has the right to have his amendment voted
on, and therefore if the Dirksen amendment wins, I will move that the
matter be taken up by the full connnittee.
Senator Mundt. The Chair awaits now a second to the McClellan
substitute.
Senator Jackson. I second the motion.
Senator Mundt. It is seconded by Senator Jackson. I would assume
that we "would want to go around and inquire of the various entities
involved. Senator JVIcClellan
Senator Dikkskn. Are you about to vote, Mr. Chairman?
Senator Mundt. This would be on the McCUellan substitute.
Senator McClellan. I didn't offer this to please any of the jjrinci-
pals to this controversy. I offered it as a motion to the committee.
It is now pending. If any member of the committee wishes to discuss
it, I have no objection, and if any member of the principals suggests
996 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
that the time is not Jidoquate, 1 would be ^lad to hear on that. If they
want more time, I am not trying to cut oflf anybody's time. I am try-
ing to limit the time with the idea of expediting the hearings, and in
the hope that by so doing we may eliminate a lot of irrelevancy and
immateriality, and possibly succeed in having the questions confined
to the issues.
Senator Dirksen. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mdndt. Senator Dirksen ?
Senator Dirksen. I have only one connnent to make on the substi-
tute. As 1 understand it, I would regard it as a breach of our under-
standing with Senator McCarthy at the time he was telephoned in
Dallas to see whether or not he subscribed to the rules that were
adopted.
Senator Mundt. The Chair has only one comment, and that is that
while it is an effort and might conceivably save a little time, 1 think
it might work in the other direction. As the (yhair has rapidly cal-
culated the time under the McClellan amendment, it would provide
for about 4 days of cross-examination for each witness. He would
ho])e that after 1 or 2 or 3 of the major witnesses have been heard, we
could certainly dispose of witnesses more rapidly than that.
The Chair would have to say, because he believes the Dirksen amend-
ment has a right to be heard on its own merits, if it is voted for as a
substitute, the Chair would have to vote in the negative, quite regard-
less of the consideration of the merits of the McClellan proi)osal.
Any body else?
Senator McClellan. I am ready.
Senator McCarthy. Mr, Chairman, does the Senator ])ropose that
the time he suggests be limited to questioning? How about the
speeches? I have been here the last 2 or 3 days rather ill listening
to all these
Senator McClellan. The Senator can control that as much as any-
body else.
Senator McCarthy. Let me finish, please. I think we owe a little
courtesy here. I didn't interrupt you.
I am asking a civil question. We s])end about 90 percent of our
time now on speeches. I am asking you this question. _ Your resolu-
tion provides a certain length of time for each individual. Would
their speeches be subtracted from that time or will we still have an
hour or two of speeches every morning and every afternoon ?
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Senator McClellan.
Senator McClellan. I have observed since these proceedings
started that when a point of order was raised, speeches were made,
and that time was not taken out of him who had the floor for question-
ing witnesses. Certainly the remarks of the committee, anything per-
taining to procedure at the start of hearings or any time during the
course of hearings, whether regarded as speeches with respect to
procedure or any other remarks that members of the committee may
make with respect to the proceedings, at a time when they are not
occupying their time to question witnesses— that time would not be
charged against any of the particiimnts to this controversy.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. McCh^llan, will yon yield?
Senator McClellan. I will be glad to.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 997
Senator McCarthy. This question is beino; asked in all seriousness.
You are making a sucffjestion here of certain limitations. If you
would amend your motion to provide that anyone who makes a speech
about shortening the hearinp;s would lose that much time from his
period of questioning, I would say that your motion would have some
more merit. I believe we can never end these if we are going to spend
half of each day making speeches.
Senator McClellan. Well, Mr. Chairman, I may say to the Senator
again I will submit my record against his with reference to s])eeches.
I have no intention of making speeches except on some motion or
point of order merely to explain my position. I think I have pretty
well adhered to that.
A while ago when I offered this substitute motion I think I directed
my remarks to it in stating my reasons why I felt it should be adopted
and the reasons why the original motion to which this is a substitute
should not be adopted.
Senator McCarthy. This is just a question for my information.
Senator. I don't know yet whether or not, if each Senator has an
hour, that any speech he makes is subtracted from that hour. It is
a simple question. I am not ar<Tuing. I am just asking the question
so I will know what your motion is. In other words, you follow
me — if Senator X has an hour to question, we will say, a witness over
here and if X uses 50 minutes in making a speech, does he still have
an hour to question or does he have only 10 minutes ?
Senator McClfxlan. IVIr. (chairman, in answer to that question I
would say that if any Senator during his period of questioning gets
out of order, or any participant, any of the principals or his attorney,
or any other member of this committee can raise a point of order and
that time that it occupies to resolve the point of order will not be taken
out of anyone's time.
If he is making a speech, if no one objects he is consuming his
time or getting a little nearer the end, but if he is making a speech and
an im])roper one, the Senator from Wisconsin can promptly object
and fTQt a ruling from the Chair.
Senator Mundt. Are you ready for the vote on the substitute?
Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman ?
Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch, do you want to be heard ?
Mr. Welch. I would like to be. I think I have very little right
to be heard, but I would like to be.
Senator Mundt You may be heard.
Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, I have seldom tried a lawsuit in which
my cross-examination of a witness or a party could be concluded in
one day's time. We are talking about just that here. I do not deny
that this is not the biggest lawsuit in which I have ever been engaged,
because I guess it is, and I stand a little in awe of promising a compe-
tent cross-examination of anybody in 4 hours. But, Senator McClel-
lan, I would so much rather have 4 open public hours than to have
40 in closed session, that I think I would trade the 4 for the 40. I
would lose this much practically. Mr. Stevens must have been ex-
amined for something like 40 hours. I would get 36 less hours on
the other principals. But that is down the drain and I am not going
to kick. Four hours seems a little short to me, sir, but, as I say, I
would take it rather than a whole lot of hours behind closed doors.
998 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Senator McCartfiy. Mr. Chairman?
Senator Munot. Are yon ready to vote on the substitnte?
Senator Mc(yARTiiY. I will wait until after the vote.
Senator Mundt. The vote is on the substitnte offered by Senator
Jackson — by Senator McClellan, seconded by Senator Jackson, and
the Chair will call the roll. Senator McClellan ?
Senator McClellan. Aye.
Senator Mundt. Senator Dirksen?
Senator Dirksen. No.
Senator Mundt. Senator Jackson ?
Senator Jackson. No.
Senator Mundt. Senatoi* Potter?
Senator Poti^er. No.
Senator Mundt. Senator Symington?
Senator Symington. Aye.
Senator Mundt. Senator Dworshak?
Senator DwoRsiiAK. No.
Senator Mundt. The chairman votes "no."
The motion is lost. The vote now occurs on the Dirksen proposal
as originally made and the Chair will call the roll.
Senator Dirksen. Mr. Chairman, before you vote cm it — —
Senator Mundt. Senator Dirksen.
Senator Dirksen. I just take this position, Mr. Chairman. This
has been an honest endeavor, I think to put an end to the derisive effect
of this hearing upon the American ])eople.
Every Senator must assume his own responsibility. I have done it
in the House and Senate for 20 years or more, and I intend to do it
now. It is a case of measuring little e(]uities against big ones. But
when you measure the impact of these hearings upon Army morale,
upon the morale of our peo])le, I think the whole weight is in behalf
of this resolution. Every endeavor was made to safeguard all parties
in interest here and give every one a fair share. I fully intend to
support it.
Senator Mundt. The Chair would like to say just this, because he
proposes to vote no on the resolution. He wants to say that he does
so with a firm conviction that the Senator from Illinois did present
a very fair and carefully thought-out ])roposal. But because the Chair
has felt that all parties to this dispute must certainly be sufficiently
well satistied so that they would not ])rotest publicly against a pro-
gram as being unfair or unjust, since one of the entities, as he had
a right to do, has protested against the procedure as being unfair, the
Chair will vote no, but he wants the Senator from Illinois to realize
it is not because he doesn't feel he has made a very constructive and a
very worthwhile and a very honest effort. Senator Potter?
Senator Potter. Mr. Chaii-man, it is my interpretation of Sena-
tor Dirksen's motion that Senator McCarthy will take the stand, will
subject himself to examination and cross-examination as did Secre-
tary Stevens. So on that score certainly it is equal. That the other
principals on both the side of the Army and the side of Senator
AlcCarthy, will be treated in like manner, that testimony will be taken
in executive session, and the transcription will be given to the public
on the hour, I believe, or at least given out so that the people of the
country will have all the facts. If it is deemed desirable and wise
by the committee to have other principals in public session, that can
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 999
be done by a vote of the committee. The same is true with parties
on either side. Our purpose in this entire investijjation has been to as-
certain the true facts. That, Mr. Chairman, is what I, as one member
of the committee, want to do in this hearing. But by the same token
I am conscious also of the fact that the display of this hearino; by all
the media that we have here, does have a great effect on the dignity
and decorum of the Congress of the United States. It has a great
effect ujion the respect that the people have for our executive branch
of the Government.
If my mail is any indication, I can say to you, Mr. Chairman, that
the i|jeu])le are sick and tired of this public display, of the constant
repetition.
The facts can, I am convinced, be ascertained, which is our sole job,
by the motion offered by Senator Dirksen. I would vote against this
motion if I felt there was one iota of truth in the statements that the
evidence will be put under the rug, or that there would be a whitewash
of any kind. I can assure you that after Senator McCarthy has been
on the stand, and if other witnesses have evidence that will throw
additional light upon this controversy, I, as one member of the com-
mittee, would vote to have them appear in public session, if necessary,
to bring out all the facts. But, Mr. Chairman, we have a grave obli-
gation to the American people, and looking at it overall, our prestige
in the world is being affected by these hearings going on in the caucus
room m the Senate Office Building. The prestige of our American
form of Government is being lowered by these hearings going on in
this caucus room. I fully appreciate that any person who has had
charges made against him should have ample opportunity to refute
those ciiarges.
I say, Mr. Chairman, that this vehicle here, though it may not be
perfect, is certainly better than the continuation of this hearing week
after week, month after month. Mr. Chairman, I am ready to vote.
Senator Mundt. Are you ready for the vote on the Dirksen pro-
posal ?
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman?
Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, I would like to be heard on
this. As the Chair knows, some days ago Mr. Welch made a sugges-
tion. I reluctantly accepted that. During the noon hour, and if I
am wrong on this I wish the Chair would tell me, I was contacted,
1 was by the phone and I was contacted at least a half dozen times
with the request that I accept the changes that Mr. Welch suggested
in this document. I reluctantly accepted them. I think I made it
clear that I felt that while I did not favor his changes, if these were
his conditions for cutting down the hearings, I would reluctantly
accept. I was urged to accept by members of the committee. I was
shocked, and I have seen a great number of different types of lawyers
in my career as a judge and as a lawyer, I was shocked beyond words
when I found Mr. Welch came in here and made the statement that
this resolution was new to him, after he had been making suggestions
during the noon hour, and after he had approved, apparently ap-
proved, the document.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I am not going to say he Avas acting in bad
faith. That is up to the Senators who work with him to decide that.
I would like to make a suggestion, Mr. Chairman. All before noon,
1000 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
we spent our time discussing; tlie question of how we could shorten
the liearin^^s. We never asked u sin<;le question of a witness. It is
now 4: 10 in the aftcrnon, so at most, even if the vote is taken inune-
diately, "vve have 20 minutes left today to ask questions. I would
sugirest that you just cannot deal in an> manner, shape or form with a
Welch who consistently makes offers and then comes in here and puts i
on this act before television. 1 think, Mr. Chairman, that when this i
vote is taken, Mr. Welch should be i)ut on the stand, he should be j
asked why he made the ori<ijinal su^jrestion and then "welched" on j
that; wliy he made the sujjjgestions for the chan<j;es which 1 was urjred j
to accept and I reluctantly did, and why, after I accepted those chan<Tes,
he came before this committee and told this committee that this was
a new document to him, that he knew nothin<>; about it.
Mr. Chairman, may 1 say that 1 think it is a complete waste of
time, from now on, to try to do anythinj:: excej)t to <j;o ri<»;iit straight
through this, hear all the witnesses, unless the motion of the Senator
from Illinois is accepted. 1 think it is a waste of time to do any
attempted dealing with Mr. Welch. The pur|)ose of Mr. Stevens
and Air. Adams is now clear. They succeeded in calling the investi-
gation of Communists off by making their smear attack upon my staff
and upon me. It is now clear that Mr. Welch, the attorney for Mr.
Stevens and Mr. Adams, is not acting in what 1 would call good
faith when he keeps me at the plione for 2 hours, and I finally accept,
accept what he thinks is a proper document and he comes in here and
says, "1 never saw it before."
Mr, Chairman, I urge that after this motion is acted upon that we
have no more dealings, no more conversations, about how we can close
the hearings. Let's hear all the witnesses, hear all of them in public,
and I will ask that Mr. Welch be called. And, also, Mr. Chairman, I
would like to make this request, and you perhaps nuiy not be able to
do this today, but, Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that this com-
mittee is acting only in the hearings about 4 hours a day, in view of the
fact that we have an investigation that we have been working on for
6 or 8 months which the statute of limitations on criminal prosecu-
tions is about to run out on, in view of the fact that as of this very
moment, at 4: 10, on May 11, 1954, there are roughly 100 and some 30
Communists in defense plants, 1 am going to ask the chair to call a
meeting of the committee, and 1 will ask the permission then that we
revoke the rule we originally made. We originally passed a rule
that there be no hearings while this was in ])rogress. I am sure that
all of us who voted on that, and I voted for it, felt that we could dispose
of these hearings in a matter of a week. Now, we realize that with
the filibustering, procrastination, it may take months.
Mr. Chairman, I think it is ui'gent that I have the permission of
the committee. 1 am not askijig for it here, but I "would like to have an
executive session, and receive the pcnnission of the committee to hold
hearings every evening, every Saturday, not on the military, but on
(^ommunists in defense plants which have nothing to do with the
military. I ask the Chair to call that executive session at his earliest
convenience so that even while this circus is going on we may be able
to defeat the purpose of Mr. Welch. Mr. Adams, and Mr. Stevens,
and proceed to dig out Communists even during this circus. 1 think
that is of the utmost importance, period.
Senator Mundt. Are you ready to vote?
SPECLAL INVESTIGATION 1001
Mr. Welch. IMr. Chairman.
Senator Mdnot. Mv. Welch?
Mr. Welch. I think I am entitled to be heard at least to this
extent
Senator Mundt. I think so, sir.
Mr. Welch. Unless my ears deceived me, the Senator from Wis-
consin said I was on the telephone with him for something like an
honr at adjournment. The Senator from Wisconsin knows I did not
talk to him at adjournment or at any other time. I did not talk to
Mr. Cohn. I did not talk to ]\Ir. Jenkins. I need not say I did not
talk to any Senator sittini? on that side of the table.
Senator McCarthy. May I ask Mr. Welch this, with the Chair's
permission. May I ask Mr. Welch this: Certain changes were made
in this document. Were those changes made at your suggestion to
anyone else?
Mr. Welch. They were not.
Senator McCarthy. You mean you knew nothing about these?
Mr. W'ELcri. They were not, 1 did not even hear of any of those
changes until I came to this roouL If you would like to know what
I did, I ate some lunch and I lay down on a good, long couch in my
room with my bead on my arm and rested.
Senator Mundt. The Chair believes we should proceed with the
vote.
Senator IMcCarthy. No, no, Mr. Chairman. Here is a very im-
portant point. ]Sfr. Chairman, may I have the Chair's attention?
Senator Mundt. The Chair has recognized Mr. Jenkins. The Chair
has recogjiized the committee counsel, Mr. Jenkins.
Senator AIcCartjiy. I have not concluded.
Mr. Jenkins. Do 1 have the floor, Mr. Chairman ?
This colloquy between the Senator — the statements made are wholly
out of order. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that we should now pro-
ceed to take a vote on the resolution or on the motion, and then act
accordingly and proceed with the presentation of the ])roof, which I
assure the Chair and the committee I am ready to do.
Senator Mundt. The Chair is prepared to call the roll.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. The Chair will state in response to the Senator
from Wisconsin
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. The Chair is about to answer the Senator's re-
quest. The Chair has consistently held that whenever any of the
members of the subcommittee or counsel for any individual requests
that a meeting of the subcommittee be called to consider matters that
they want to bring before us, he will call that meeting and he will
call the meeting the Senator has requested, and listen to his suggestion
at that time.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. I would like to have the vote.
Senator McCarthy. I have a very important point here, Mr.
Chairman. I have made the statement that I have received telephone
calls, that I stood by my phone this noon, and I was led to believe —
I am not going to name the Senators or who did it — let me finish
this, Mr. Chairman. I insist on finishing my sentence.
Senator Mundt. One at a time.
1002 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Senator McCarthy. I insist on finishing, Mr. Chairman. May I
finish tliis, Mr. Chairman ?
Senator Mundt. Proceed.
Senator McCarthy. I have made the statement that over 2 hours
this noon I was being called repeatedly by Senators and others who
led me to believe that these changes were suggested by Mr. Welch ;
that he wanted, for example, the word "rebuttal" removed; that he
wanted other words inserted. And if Mr. Welch was lying on his
couch asleep, I am not going to ask that the Senator take the stand,
but I do think it should be made very clear by the Chair, who knows
about the conversation — I am not saying the Chair himself made the
calls — I think it should be made very clear that I had no indication
that this was not coming directly from Mr. Welch, and I think that
should be cleared up, because I spent a lot of time accepting what
I thought were Welch's proposals.
As I say, I don't want anyone to take the stand and give me details
about it, but I think in fairness to me those calls that were made
should be summarized by someone so it is very clear that I was led to
believe that I was accepting an offer by Mr. Welch.
I think that is reasonable, Mr. Chairman. I think it is very
reasonable.
Senator Mundt. The Chair cannot go into all the colloquies that
all the Senators and all the people interested in this discussion had
during the lunch hour. You will have to take Mr. Welch's word for
it that he was asleep on his couch.
The Chair will say that Senator McCarthy advised him that he
felt that this proposal would be acceptable to him and that the Chair
had been led to believe by those in consultation with him that it was
acceptable to others. Apparently we know now that it was not.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Welch. May I correct the record in one respect, Mr. Chairman.
I did not say I was asleep on my couch. I was not that lucky. But
I was reclining on it.
Senator Mundt. Very good, sir. We stand corrected.
The Chair will now rule that the time has come to vote on this mo-
tion which is before the committee, unless some other voting member
wants to be heard.
Senator McCarthy. A point of personal privilege, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy.
Senator McCarthy. I think in decency and honesty it should be
made clear that representatives of this committee did lead me to
believe in at least half a dozen phone calls that someone from the
military — Mr. Welch is the man they indicated — was making these
suggestions and that that is why I accepted them. Unless that is made
clear, Mr. Chairman, the impression will go out that there is no basis
for this. I think it is just common decency, Mr. Chairman. I wish
you would talk to your counsel. If it was Mr. St. Clair and not
Mr. Welch, we should know that. Either somebody was deceiving
the committee or someone on the committee was being overly zealous
in urging me what to do.
Mr. Chairman, may I finish? I think this is awfully important.
It is a question of my veracity at stake.
Senator Mundt. The Chair
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1003
Senator McCarthy. Just a minute, Mr. Chairman. Is it too much
to ask that the Chair consult with his colleagues and then either
confirm or deny the fact that I was standing by my phone for 2
hours and received repeated calls and was led to believe that these
suggested changes were made at the suggestion of !Mr. Welch? I
think that is a reasonable request, Mr. Chairman,
Senator Mdndt. The Chair does not believe anybody's veracity is
at stake. I think Mr. Welch adequately explained that at the begin-
ning when he said he did not have an opportunity to consult with his
client during the lunch hour. We recessed the committee twice this
afternoon so he could consult with his client on the proposed changes
and advised the committee that his client felt that they would be
unfair to his interests if we were to adopt them.
Senator ^McCarthy. One further question, Mr, Chairman, Will the
Chair ask Mr. St. Clair whether he was the man? I would like to
know who it was who made these suggested changes.
Senator IMundt. I don't think it is the purpose or the part of the
Chair to interrogate counsel for any of the entities to this dispute.
We have tried diligently all around the table to try to find some work-
able formula for expediting the hearings which all entities would say
they considered fair. I will say that Senator McCarthy did agree
openly and publicly and privately to accept it. So did Mr. Plensel,
speaking through Mr, Bryan, exercising his right. Mr. Welch advised
the Chair that his client had told him on the second phone call that
he thought the proceeding would be unfair and that is what the Chair
was trying to determine from the very beginning.
I suggest now that we have a vote on Senator
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Senator McClellan.
Senator McCt.ellan. First a point of personal privilege. When
Senator McCarthy refers to "some Senators" I have no way of know-
ing definitely whether I am included. I wish to say for myself that
I had no conversation with either Senator McCarthy or Mr, Welch
during the noon hour. I trust the Senator will make clear, if we are
trying to clear this up, that he did not include me when he said "some
Senators,"
Senator McCarthy. Will Senator McClellan yield ?
Senator McClellan. In all fairness I think you should do that.
Senator McCarthy. May I make it very clear, Senator McClellan,
that neither joii nor Senator Jackson nor Senator Symington has
ever indicated at any time that they wanted to cut these hearings
short, to me or in my hearing. You have had no contact with me for
that purpose. You have had no contact with me this noon, no contact
other than here at the committee table today.
Senator McClellan. I thank the Senator. I was simply trying to
clear it up, I don't think you should leave it "some Senators."
Senator Mundt. Are we ready for the vote ?
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, a point of personal privilege.
Senator Mundt. State your point of personal privilege.
Senator McCarthy. The Chair knows, not from his own personal
conversations with me — the Chair knows the urging that I was under
at noon to accept these changes. The Chair knows that it was repre-
1004 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
sented to me that they were Mr. Welch's. I wish the Chair would make
that clear for the record.
Senator Mundt. He has tried to make it as clear as he can from the
paucity of information which is his that the Chair himself asked
Senator McCarthy whether he felt that these proposals would be
acceptable to him. He was the only one the Chair contacted. He did
not contact Mr. Welch. He did not contact Mr. Hensel or Mr. Bryan.
I can say only that, because I know no more about it, except that I
do say that Senator McCarthy was acting in good faith when he was
led to believe that perhaps there had come about a meeting of minds.
Unhappily, that meeting of minds has not been brought about. It
seems to me that now we should proceed with the vote. Maybe there
has been a meeting of the minds. We will have to have a vote to
determine that.
Senator McCarthy. Just one question, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. You may ask it.
Senator McCarthy. If I may ask the Chair this question : I assume
there is no doubt in the Chair's mind but what I was led to believe
that Mr. Welch had made these suggested changes ?
Senator Mundt. I am not sure that it would be fair to say Mr.
Welch was involved. I think that it was brought to the Senator's
attention that this resolution had gone through a series of evolutions,
and that its author felt and hoped, as did some of the other members
of the committee, that it was in such a form that those involved would
think it was a fair and honest and just approach.
Senator McCarthy. As a final question, Mr. Chairman, after the
session is over, I wonder if the Chair would do this for me : I wonder
if he would give me the names of those representing Mr. Stevens or
Mr. Adams who suggested these chano;es. I think I am entitled to
that. I was led to believe it was Mr. Welch. If that is untrue, I should
know who they were. I am not asking for that on the record, Mr.
Chairman, but I do think I am entitled to that information, because
when I am dealing with my fellow Senators, I have complete con-
fidence and trust in them ; I still have.
If there is a misunderstanding, if it wasn't Mr. Welch who was
making the suggestion, I would like to know who it was. If the Chair
would do that after the session is over — period.
Senator Mundt. The Chair is not much of an investigator; he is
not much of a judge. He will see what he can do to determine it.
We will now have the rollcall vote on the Dirksen amndment.
Senator McClellan ?
Senator McClellan. No.
Senator Mundt. Senator Dirksen?
Senator Dirksen. Aye.
Senator Mundt. Senator Jackson?
Senator Jackson. No.
Senator Mundt. Senator Potter?
Senator Potter. Aye.
Senator Mundt. Senator Symington ?
Senator Symington. No.
Senator Mundt. Senator Dworshak?
Senator Dworshak. Aye.
Senator Mundt. The Chair votes no. The motion fails.
Senator Dworshak. ]\Ir. Chairman ?
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1005
Senator Mundt. Senator Dworshak. I think I should recognize
him first because he has said nothing so far.
Senator Dworsiiak. Prior to the reference by Senator McCarthy
a few minutes ago, to the possibility of night sessions, I have made
some notations to remind me to offer a motion which I do at this time,
that we proceed to hold evening sessions from 7 : 30 to 9 : 30 p. m., on
each day that any sessions are held by this subcommittee.
Senator McCleli^n. I second the motion, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. It is moved and seconded that every day that we
hold sessions we also hold night sessions from T : 30 to 9 : 30. May the
Chair inquire whether he includes today in that resolution?
Senator Dwohshak. Yes; I certainly do.
Senator Mundt. May the Chair state that not knowing about that
possibility, the chairman of one of the appropriations subcommittees
of which several members at this table are members had scheduled a
7 : 30 evening session of the subcommittee on appropriations especially
to accommodate our committee members.
Senator Dworshak. That has been postponed until Thursday
evening.
Senator Mundt, Very well. Then the Chair would interpret if the
motion prevails we would meet again at 7 : 30 this evening. Does any-
body want to be heard on the motion ?
Mr. Welch. Could I be heard?
Senator Mundt. You may be heard.
Mr. Welch. I don't think the first part will do me much good. I
look with horror upon sessions of that length, but as 1 said I will do
it if I have to. But I do want to make this suggestion : If you have
three session a day, and this applies to all people, that is too long for
any single witness, and I think you ought to take one witness in the
morning, a different witness in the afternoon, and a third witness at
night. Certainly you ought not to take a single witness, particularly
in cross-examination, for that long a period. I urge that with all my
power. I have seen enough about lawsuits to know that that is pretty
tough on the witness, and I would like to add that I am sure we all
get tired and angry and difficult, and we will be in more squabbles
in the evening than you could shake a stick at. But, as I say, I will
go along if I have to.
Senator Mundt. The Chair can only say that as he interprets that
motion, that is not included in the motion.
Do you want to discuss the motion ?
Senator Dirksen. Mr. Chairman, if the vote is put, I shall vote no.
I have some other responsibilities as a Senator. I get up early, I stay
up late, I put in 18 hours a day, and I intend to pursue some of my
other duties notwithstanding this hearing.
Senator Mundt. Any other discussion on the motion which has been
made by the Senator from Idaho?
Senator Jackson. In view of the fact — as I understand it, Mr.
Chairman, there are some hearings before the Senate Appropriations
Committee. Wouldn't it be better to take this matter up in executive
session tomorrow and make a determination at that time? I am
ready to vote, if it is the wish of the committee, but I merely make
that suggestion. I am ready to vote in favor of it, but I think the
matter probably should be deferred until tomorrow morning so that
1006 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
the committee can go over and then have it voted upon at the begin-
ning of public session in the morning.
Senator Mundt. Are you offering that in the nature of a substitute,
Senator Jackson ?
Senator Jackson. I am offering that as a suggestion to my dis-
tinguished friend from Idaho, if he will accept it.
Senator Dworshak. Mr. Chairman, I have no objection to deferring
the actual vote on this, but I merely wanted to serve notice that we have
been in session 14 days and have accomplished virtually nothing
insofar as ascertaining any of the real facts in connection with this
controversy. And I think that the time has now arrived when this
subcommittee must decide w^hether it is engaged essentially and pri-
marily in putting on a TV show for the American people or whether
we recognize our responsibility to expedite these hearings and to do
everything within our power to get the facts and then to reach a
conclusion so that we can devote our time to other important duties.
Senator Mundt. May the Chair inquire whether, if he calls an
executive session tomorrow morning at 9:30 to discuss tint, and go
into other matters that are before the committee, if that will be suit-
able to the Senator from Idaho, so that he can renew his suggestion
at that time and perhaps work out a more orderly schedule for hear-
ings than w^e could do on the spur of the moment here.
Senator Dworshak. That is satisfactory.
Senator Mundt. You withdraw your motion temporarily?
Senator Dworshak. I will, temporarily.
Senator Mundt. The Chair will announce that in room 357 to-
morrow morning, at 9:30, there will be an executive session of the
committee.
We stand in recess until 10 : 30 tomorrow morning.
(Whereupon, at 4:30 p. m., the committee was recessed, to re-
convene at 10 : 30 a. m., Wednesday, May 12, 1954.)
INDEX
Pago
Adams, John G COO, 991, 993, 1000, 1004
Appropriations Committee (Senate) 1005
Boston 989
Bryan, Frederick P 1003, 1004
Carr, Francis P 988, 993
Cohn, Roy IM 9S8, 993, 1001
Communists 1000
Dirksen, Senator 989, 994, 995, 998, 999, 1004
Dirksen amendment 989, 994, 995, 998, 999, 1004
Federal Governmont 993, 999
Hensel, H. Struvo 987, 988, 993, 1003, 1004
Jackson, Senator 1003
McCarthY, Senator Joe 93G-994, 996-999, 1001-1005
McClellan, Senator 995, 996
McClellan amendment 995, 996
St. Clair, James D 1002
Scbine, G. David 990
Secretary of tl^o Army 989-992, 997, 1000, 1004
Senate Appropriations Committee 1005
Stevens, Robert T 989-992, 997, 1000, 1004
Symington, Senator 1003
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