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Full text of "Special Senate investigation on charges and countercharges involving: Secretary of the Army Robert T. Stevens, John G. Adams, H. Struve Hensel and Senator Joe McCarthy, Roy M. Cohn, and Francis P. Carr. Hearings before the Special Subcommittee on Investigations of the Committee on Government Operations, United States Senate, Eighty-third Congress, second session, pursuant to S. Res. 189 .."

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SPECIAL SENATE INVESTIGATION ON CHARGES 
AND COUNTERCHARGES INVOLVING: SECRE- 
TARY OF THE ARMY ROBERT T. STEVENS, JOHN 
G. ADAMS, H. STRUVE HENSEL AND SENATOR 

JOE McCarthy, roy m. cohn, and 

FRANCIS p. CARR 



HEARING 

BEFORE THE 

SPECIAL SUBCOMMITTEE ON 
INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON 

GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 

PURSUANT TO 

S. Res. 189 



PART 36 



MAY 24, 1954 



Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Operations 




UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT I'RINTING OFFICE 
46620« WASHINGTON : 1054 



Boston Public Library 
Superintendent of Documents 

SEP 28 1954 



COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT- OPERATIONS 

JOSEPH R. McCarthy, Wlscensin, Chairman 
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas 

MARGARET CHASE SMITH. Maine HENRY M. JACKSON. Washington 

HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts 

EVERETT Mckinley DIRKSEN, Illinois STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri 
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland THOMAS A. BURKE, Ohio 

CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan 

Richard J. O'Melia, General Counsel 
Walter L. Reynolds, Chief Clerk 



Special Subcommittee on Investigations 

KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota, Chairman 
HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas 

EVERETT Mckinley DIRKSKN, Illinois HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington 
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri 

Ray H. Jenkins, Chief Counsel 

THOMAS R. Prewitt, Assistant Counsel 

Robert A. Collier, Assistant Counsel 

SoLis HORwiTz, Assistant Counsel 

Charles A. Maner, Secretary 

n 



CONTENTS 



Pa2;e 
Index I 

Testimony of — 

Stevens, Hon. Robert T., Secretary, Department of the Army 121)5 

III 



SPECIAL SENATE INVESTICtATION ON CHARGES AND 
COUNTERCHARGES INVOLVING: SECRETARY OF THE 
ARMY ROBERT T. STEVENS, JOHN G. ADAMS, H. STRUVE 
HENSEL AND SENxVTOR JOE MCCARTHY, ROY M. COHN, 
AND FRANCIS P. CARR 



MONDAY, MAY 24, 1954 

United States Senate, 
Special Subcommittee on Investigations 
or the Committee on Government Operations, 

Washington, D. C. 

The subcommittee met at 10 a. m., pursuant to recess, in the caucus 
room of the Senate Office Building, Senator Karl E. Mundt, chair- 
man, presiding. 

Present: Senators Karl E. Mundt, Republican, South Dakota; 
Everett McKinley Dirksen, Republican, Illinois; Charles E. Potter, 
Republican, Michigan; Henry C. Dworshak, Republican, Idaho; 
John L, McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas; Henry M. Jackson, Demo- 
crat, Washington ; and Stuart Symington, Democrat, Missouri. 

Also Present : Ray H. Jenkins, chief counsel to the subcommittee ; 
Thomas R. Prewitt, assistant counsel ; and Ruth Y. Watt, chief clerk. 

Principal participants: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, a United 
States Senator from the State of Wisconsin; Roy M. Cohn, chief 
counsel to the subcommittee ; Francis P. Carr, executive director of the 
subcommittee ; Hon. Robert T. Stevens, Secretary of the Army ; John 
G. Adams, counselor to the Army ; Joseph N. Welch, special counsel 
for the Army; James D. St. Clair, special counsel for the Army; and 
Frederick P. Bryan, counsel to H. Struve Hensel, Assistant Secretary 
of Defense. 

Senator Mundt. The meeting will please come to order. 

The committee will come to order, and the Chair will resume his 
custom of welcoming our guests who have come to the committee room 
and advising them of the standing committee rule, which is to the 
effect that there are to be no audible manifestations of approval at any 
time by anybody during the course of the hearings. The officers that 
3'ou see in the room, and the plainclothes men who are scattered through 
the audience have standing orders from the committee to politely 
escort from the room immediately anybody who violates the condi- 
tions under which you entered, which were to refrain entirely from 
manifestations of an audible nature either expressing your approval 
or disapproval. 

The Chair will say at the beginning of the hearings this morning 
that when these hearings recessed a week ago the Chair was instructed 
by the motion declaring the recess to hold whatever conferences he 

1287 



1288 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

could to the end that these hearings could be continued and concluded 
on a basis that would give the committee and the public as complete a 
picture as it is possible to provide under the Attorney General's in- 
terpretation of the President's Executive order dated May 17. These 
conferences have been held. We are resuming this testimony this 
moniing with the expectation that it will continue on schedule and 
without interruption until all of the available information has been 
obtained. The Chair is pleased to report that Secretary Stevens is 
here this morning to make a statement relative to the.relationship of 
the conference referred to by Mr. Adams as taking place on January 
21, to these hearings, and that Senator McCarthy has advised the 
Chair that he and his associates are willing and ready to testify as 
soon as we have concluded with witnesses from the Stevens- Adams 
side of this controversy. 

It is not now known, of course, how much or how little of the evidence 
in connection with this controversy will not be available to this com- 
mittee as a result of the Executive order of May 17. However, if this 
committee were at this time to involve itself in the historic differences 
occurring between the executive and legislative branches of our Gov- 
ernment, on the question of what testimony and evidence officials of 
the executive branch of Government shall appropriately provide the 
congressional committees, it could well involve us in a collateral con- 
troversy which might be impossible to settle before the expiration of 
the current Congress, 

Believing that the conclusion of these hearings, by producing all of 
the pertinent information which is now available, is of paramount 
importance so that the vital work needing to be done, both by the Army 
and by this committee, can be resumed without the restrictive burdens 
of these hearings, the Chair is pleased that these hearmgs can continue 
without being interrupt'ed by an effort to determine at this time with 
finality the appropriate relationships in comiection with congressional 
investigations which should properly prevail between the legislative 
and the executive branches of our Govermnent. 

In the view of the Chair, the Executive order does not prevent the 
asking of. any questions interrogators might care to ask, but it will be 
up to each witness and his counsel t© make the plea of the protections 
set up by. the Executive order when it' is considered essential to do so. 

In the interest of providing us all with the maximum access to the 
facts involved in this dispute, it is the hope of the Chair that witnesses 
and counsel will take recourse to the Executive order as infrequently 
as they consider permissible and possible under the order. 

Now, Mr. Counsel, I understand that the Secretary of the Army is 
here and that you want to call him as the first witness. 

Mr. Jenkixs. That is correct, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, first, I wonder if we could have 
the minutes of the May 17 executive session made public ? 

I think they would be of benefit to the Senators, of benefit to the 
people who are trying to follow this. At that time, all the Senators 
expressed themselves, all of them rather forcefully on the secrecy order 
to keep us from getting all the facts. Practically every Senator has 
spent quite a little time here, saying everything should be laid on the 
table, everything should be made public. I would like to ask at this 
time, ask that the Chair or someone move, I cannot make the motion 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1289 

myself, that those minutes be made public. I will need them, inciden- 
tally, as we proceed throiigh these hearings. 

Senator Muxdt. The only way the Chair, of course, can release any 
of the executive testimony or hearings is by motion of the committee, 
as the Senator from Wisconsin knows. If such a motion is made, 
either in executive session or in public session, the Chair will be glad 
to put it, and, incidentally, the Chair would be glad to vote for it, 
because the Chair believes that anything that he said in executive ses- 
sion as part of this public debate could well be made a part of the 
public debate and is perfectly willing to stand on anything he said. 

Senator McCartfiy. I would very well appreciate it if the Chair 
would put that to a vote of the committee. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair, of course, would have to have a motion 
before him. The Senator has properly said that he cannot make a 
motion. If the point is made, the Chair will put it. 

Senator Potter. Is that the executive session that was held in room 
357, with representatives of the Arm}- and yourself there? 

JNIr. Chairman, I move that the record of that executive session be 
made public and handled in the same manner as the previous executive 
session that was made public. 

Senator Dirksen. I second the motion. 

Senator Mindt. We now have the motion before us which was made 
by Senator Potter and seconded by Senator Dirksen that the minutes, 
or the notes of the executive session on May IT, at which time all parties 
to the dispute were present, and at which time we discussed the prob- 
lems growing out of the Executive order, be made public in the same 
manner as the other executive session, at which we decided to conduct 
this investigation in the first instance, was made public. 

Is there any discussion or are you ready for the question ? 

Senator McClellax. Mr. Chairman, I move as a substitute for that 
motion, that every executive session we have held, every minute kept 
of it, the whole record, be made public, from beginning to end. 

Senator Potter. I accept the substitute. 

Senator Dirksex. Mr. Chairman, I want to be heard on the sub- 
stitute. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dirksen? 

Senator Dirksen. Obviously, one cannot foresee what happened at 
the executive sessions. It seems to me one is approving in the dark 
something that has not yet happened. The meeting of May 17 is an 
accomplished fact. There is something to be handed out. Conse- 
quently, I do not know that I care to go that far. 

Senator Mundt. Does the Chair understand the substitute to pro- 
ject itself into the future for all executive committee meetinefs not yet 
held? 

Senator McClellan. Past, present, and future, Mr. Chairman. If 
we are going to make them public from time to time, let us start in and 
be in public from now on. 

Senator Potter. So far as I am concerned, Mr. Chairman, I accept 
the substitute. 

Senator Mundt. Any further discussion? 

The Chair, before he puts the motion, would like to place this inter- 
pretation on it, subject to the approval of the Senator from Arkansas 
who made it: he believes that the motion should cover only those ex- 
ecutive sessions at which members of the committee were meeting and 



1290 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

discussing matters involving our procedure and our decisions, that it 
should not include all of the executive testimony that has been taken 
from witnesses. 

Is the Chair correct in that interpretation? 

Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, I do not care if you make 
everything public. If anybody wants to restrict it, it is all right with 
me. 

Senator Mundt. The point being, we have heard a great many wit- 
nesses in executive testimony, many of them in purely an exploratory 
capacity, many of whom were called with the unclerstanding that 
those who called them said they did not care to have them called in 
public. It seems to me rather unnecessary to embarrass a great many 
people 

Senator McClellan. If we are going to have executive session, all 
of this is unnecessary. If we are going to have them, let us bring them 
out here and keep everything up to date and bring them out in the 
future. We will not have this problem every day. Let us just move 
along. We will all be in public in everything we do. That suits me. 

Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman, in a minute I am going to dis- 
cuss another aspect, if I may, of this entire procedure, in these hear- 
ings, along the same lines. But I want to completely associate myself 
with the position taken by my distinguished colleague from Arkansas. 
The American people are interested in this problem, and if we are go- 
ing to put those executive sessions in, that we want to put in, and keep 
those out that we want to put out, and put in parts of those we want to 
put in, they will not be satisfied. I think it is the duty of this commit- 
tee to publish everything in the way of executive sessions that we have 
had since these hearings started. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair understands that that is the purpose of 
the substitute motion. He simply raises the question about witnesses 
who have been called and the rate of them, I might say, by both sides, 
who have appeared and who have been questioned, with just one mem- 
ber of the committee present, sometimes two, just enough to take 
sworn testimony, with the understanding on the part of the Army who 
called their witnesses, and the McCarthy side who called theirs, and 
the witnesses, that this was in an exploratory nature, that we might 
well call them all in executive session, and following that might call 
them in public session. The Chair raises the question of whether it 
would serve any good purpose to put into public testimony a lot of 
witnesses who after they have answered questions, were told by those 
who called them, "You have nothing to contribute, obviously we called 
you on a fishing expedition, nothing occurred, you can go back home 
and nothing is needed." If you want needlessly to embarrass those 
people, the Chair has, of course, only one vote, but he feels it would be 
unjust to the witnesses who have been called and who have nothing to 
contribute, simply to publish this because we have agreed that our own 
colloquys and our own decisions and deliberations should be publicized. 
That is why I am asking for the interpretation. 

Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, I think the whole thing is 
just cumbersome so far as the record is concerned. A lot of things are 
said in executive sessions by members of this committee that are ex- 
ploratory, as you say. But I do not favor just singling out one meet- 
ing and putting it out here to the public. Let us just expose it all. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1291 

the whole thing, from be<rinninf? to end. We will have no more 
executive sessions. We will just move in public. 

Senator Mundt. I quite agree so far as our own deliberations are 
concerned. I simply, before putting the motion, wanted to have an 
interi)retation so I would know how to act, because we have a drawer 
full of stenographic notes locked up in my office. 

Senator McClellan. So far as I am concerned, Mr. Chairman, I 
mean everything. I do not know how to express it any more fully. 

Senator Muxdt. By that, do you mean 

Senator McClellan. I mean testimony, everything that has been 
made a part of this record, in secret, in public, or otherwise, now be 
made a part of the record ; everything. 

Senator Symington. The Senator means everything, Mr. Chair- 
man. 

Senator Mundt. Very well. The Chair would simply say, speaking 
for himself, he would be duty-bound to vote against that kind of 
motion, because he has talked to so many witnesses and told them, "If 
you have nothing to contribute, obviously we are not going to make 
your testimony public." 

Senator Dworshak. On this proposal, it did not apply to confer- 
ences held where the counsel interrogated witnesses and where the 
members of this subcommittee were not present. 

Senator Mundt. It would now, under the interpretation that Sena- 
tor McClellan has placed on it, and that is why the Chair would say he 
would vote against that. 

Senator Dw^orshak. The members of the committee were not pres- 
ent, and when the counsel is interrogating witnesses, that does not im- 
ply that it is a subcommittee executive session. 

Senator Mundt. The man who made the motion so interprets it, and 
he has a right to interpret his own motion. 

Senator McClellan. Whether the counsel, off to himself, has inter- 
rogated a witness, that does not include that, but it does include an 
executive session where one member of the committee was present and 
took testimony under oath. That is what I am talking about. _ If 
counsel is off somewhere interrogating a witness, I don't care anything 
about that, and I don't know whether any record is made of it anyhow, 
and I don't know that there would be any minutes of such a conference. 
I know of none. 

But wherever a witness was put under oath, and wherever an execu- 
tive session was held, wherever anything was done in private or secret, 
it is a part of this record. Let us make it all public. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, may I have the attention of the 
Senator from Arkansas. 

Senator McClellan, I wonder if it might not be wise to modify that 
motion to exclude the term that Senator Dworshak suggested, namely, 
testimony taken where counsel either for ]\Ir. Stevens was not present 
or counsel for ]\Ir. Adams was not present or counsel for this side of 
the table was not present. 

Senator McClellan. Now, members of those parties were not pres- 
ent at some of these executive sessions, either. 

Senator McCarthy. Let us put it this way : "W-liere they were not 
asked to be present, then. I think where JSIr. Jenkins — may I have 
the Chair's attention — where Mr. Jenkins was conductine: interroga- 

46620'— 54— pt. 36 2 



1292 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

tories, where either counsel for Mr. Adams or Mr. Stevens were not 
present, I think it would be unfair to make that public, because Mr. 
Stevens and Mr. Adams had no chance to cross-examine them. 

I think likewise where witnesses were present, and neither I nor my 
stall' were allowed to be present, I think it would be unfair to make 
that public. I think everything else should be public. Where counsel 
for both sides were invited to be present, I think all of that should be 
made public. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair would like to raise this other additional 
point : that if we adopt the McClellan substitute we would be releas- 
ing, presumably this afternoon, or tomorrow sometime, executive testi- 
mony taken in executive session under oath, which is scheduled to come 
in to these hearings at the appropriate time, both on the Army's side 
and on the McCarthy side, perhaps 3" or 4 days from now and maybe a 
week from now. But it would certainly be a very disorderly way in 
which to present a case, because instead of doing it as we have all 
agreed to, in an orderly procedure, we would simply be clumping it all 
on the table simultaneously, and I do not think that that would be, 
Mr. Counsel, an orderly way to proceed with the interrogation. 

Mr. Jenkins. I heartily agree with what you have said, Mr. Chair- 
man, and in addition thereto I want to make this statement, and per- 
haps the chairman has already covered it. We have examined a great 
many witnesses in executive session when the chairman alone was 
present, and I was present, representing the committee. Many of 
those witnesses knew nothing whatever that shed any light on the 
controversies involved here. They were assured, as I recall, by both 
the chairman and myself, that the fact that they had been called in 
executive session and put under oath and had given testimony would 
be kept strictly confidential, and that in fact not even their names 
would be revealed. 

I feel that, Mr. Chairman, it would be a breach of confidence on our 
part if' we did otherwise than what we promised those witnesses at 
that time. 

Senator Mundt. I have in mind right now that in that connection, 
I would like to say to Senator McClellan that a witness who came 
under those circumstances, and called, incidentally, at the suggestion 
of Mr. Welch who had a perfectly proper reason for calling him, 
and felt he might have some information — when we got through 
we found there wasn't any information, and it was satisfactory to Mr. 
Welch, and I think it would be embarrassing to everybody if, under 
those circumstances, you made that fact known and that testimony 
known, because the person who called him agreed his testimony didn't 
have anything to do with the case. 

Senator Potter. Mr. Chairman, we have wasted the first half-hour 
discussing this question, and I will withdraw my motion, so that it can 
be taken up tomorrow morning and a decision made at that time. 

I think we have the Secretary of the Army here, and other witnesses 
to appear, I assume, today. So I wish to withdraw my motion, to have 
this considered the first thing tomorrow morning. 

Senator McClellan. I made a substitute motion, and do I under- 
stand the original motion is withdrawn, and the executive sessions will 
continue to remain executive sessions? 

Senator Poti-er. The original motion has been withdrawn. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1293 

Senator IMcClellan. I withdraw the substitute, and let us proceed. 

Senator McCarthy. Will the Senator from Michigan yield ? May 
I say to the Senator from Michigan that it is going to be extremely 
difficult for me to discuss certain matters today which I will have to 
discuss, unless I can freely discuss what went on in that executive 
session. As the Senator knows, we did go into this matter in detail, 
and I think that that should be available now to all of the Senators 
and to the public. Otherwise, we will be guessing about it and mis- 
quoting it inadvertently, and we shouldn't be forced to do that. But 
I wish'the Senator would not withdraw his motion. 

Senator Potter. I will say this : that I have no objection to having 
the executive session made public. However, I do feel that no ques- 
tions will be asked, and we will be discussing this one point all morn- 
ing. I would suggest that the Chair call, at the conclusion of the 
morning session, if he cares to, a meeting of this committee to act on 
this question. 

I do feel very strongly that with regard to testimony of a witness 
called before counsel, with possibly one member of the committee 
being present, when assurances have been given to that person, it cer- 
tainly is an infringement upon the rights of that individual to have 
that testimony made public. 

I don't want to give anybody the impression that anything is being 
hidden because of executive sessions, but at the same time you have 
got to protect the people who have been given assurances that their 
testimony was given in private, and by the same token may have no 
relationship with the present controversy. 

Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question ? 

Who has authority to tell a witness they will hear him in secret 
and not hear him in public? I challenge anybody to say that the 
counsel or the chairman has authority to take a witness and take his 
testimony in executive session and give him assurance that it will not 
be public or he will not be called. 

Senator Muxdt. In answer to your question, I might say that where 
that was done, it was done by the party in interest who called the 
witness on the assumption that that witness would have something to 
say that might be useful to his side of the case. Finding that the 
witness had no information, then the person who called him gave ex- 
pression that he had no desire to call him in public. That is where 
the assurance came from. 

Senator McCarthy. May I make it very clear that I am only 
referring to the meeting we had last Monday. No witnesses were 
present. At that time we discussed in detail the secrecy order which 
called the recess. I will want to quote from that. I do not want to 
quote from memory. I think that should be made public. As I say, 
I have heard Senators up and down the table make long speeches 
saying everything should be on the table. The Chair will recall that 
before we started I suggested that we have an official reporter present 
to take down everything that was said so no one could be misquoted. 

The Chair agreed with me. We had an official reporter present. 
The statements are all available. I can see no reason at this time 
why we cannot dispose of that. 

On the other question as to what other hearings should be made 
public, the committee can certain!}' take it up at some future time as 
far as I am concerned. 



1294 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator Mundt. Has anybody anything else to say? Has anyone 
any motion to make? 

There is nothing before the Chair. The Chair will defer to Mr. 
Jenkins, the counsel. 

Senator Symington". Mr. Chairman, before we ask questions of the 
witness, there is a little matter that I would like to clear up. I was 
out in Missouri over the weekend, and based on some of the stories 
which appeared in the papers, based on press conferences or statements 
made by the chairman, there appeared to be a general feeling in the 
papers of Missouri that there was some interest on the part of the 
Democrats in not having the monitored telephone calls published. 

I know the chairman would not want to say anything that is unfair 
to the Democratic members of this committee, and I am even more 
sure that he would not want to say anything that is untrue. In order 
to clarify this matter, I have a couple of short sentences here. With 
all the Senators and all the principals having a place to sign. It would 
take about a minute or less : 

I request that all monitored telephone calls between the Office of the Secre- 
tary of the Army and myself, which this subcommittee and its counsel believe 
are relevant to the issues now before the subcommittee, shall be promptly made 
a part of public record. 

I agree to the above provided all principals to these charges and members of 
this subcommittee also sign this agreement. 

And then, Mr. Chairman, I have a place for you to sign. Senator 
Dirksen, Senator Potter, Senator Dworshak, Senator McClelland, 
Senator Jackson and myself, and Senator McCarthy and Mr. Cohn 
and Mr. Carr and Mr. Hensel, Secretary Stevens and Mr. Adams. 

I would like to make this suggestion and submit it to you, sir, and 
make it part of the record, if I may. 

Senator Muxdt. The Chair will be glad to receive it and to add 
further that Mr. Welch communicated with the Chair at the beginning 
of the session this morning that he had just arrived back from Boston, 
and had not had a chance to read the letter over the weekend. We 
sent to him the 4 blanks signed by the Republicans and the 3 blanks 
signed by the Democrats, and in which I said that from those 7 blanks 
he could deliver the monitored telephone conversations to our counsel. 
I hoped he could do so. If he could not, I hoped he would tell us 
what he had to have so he could, because we would like to have that 
first step taken care of immediately. It may be that Mr. Welch who 
has heard that statement read will find that helpful to him when he 
confers with our counsel through the lunch hour. 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, could I say a single word ? 

Senator Mundt. You may. 

Mr. Welch. I apparently gave the Chair the impression that I had 
arrived only this morning from Boston. I did in fact arrive about 
10 o'clock last night but did not see your letter until this morning. 

Senator Mundt. Very good. All right, Mr. Jenkins. 

Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman, there is just one other point 
I would like to bring up as a matter being discussed strictly from 
the legalistic angle : That is that it seems almost incredible to me that 
Mr. Welch and his counsel, and Mr. Eoy Cohn, can see these moni- 
tored conversations by agreement between somebody and somebody, 
and at the same time not a single member of this committee sitting 
in judgment on these charges has so far by any agreement been allowed 
to see any monitored tele]3hone conversations. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1295 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, I would like to have the honor of hav- 
ing the first signatures on Senator Symington's paper produced by 
Mr. Stevens and Mr. Adams. They would like the honor of being 
the first ones to put their names on your paper. 

Senator Mundt. You may do that. 

Senator STMiNGXOisr. Now, INIr. Chairman, it begins to look to me 
like this matter is being cleared up. 

Senator Mundt. We certainly hope it will be cleared up, because 
it has been in the fog for a long time. 

Now Mr. Jenkins, will you proceed, please? 

Mr. Jenkins. JNIr. Chairman, I desire to make it perfectly clear at 
this time that the Secretary of the Army is being called to the witness 
stand this morning out of order for one purpose and one purpose only, 
insofar as direct and cross-examinations of the Secretary are 
concerned. 

As we all know, the President issued a directive of May 17. Fol- 
lowing that, the press carried a statement allegedly made by the Secre- 
tary of the Army under date of May 19. 

The purpose of this examination is to interrogate the Secretary with 
respect to this release of May 19 and for no other purpose. 

TESTIMONY OF HON. EOBEET T. STEVENS, SECRETARY OF THE 

ARMY— Resumed 

Mr. Jenkins. You are Mr. Robert T. Stevens, Secretary of the 
Army ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Stevens, if my memory has not failed me, 1 be- 
lieve you have heretofore testified at these hearings? 

Secretary Stevens. That is correct, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Did you acquaint yourself with the Presidential di- 
rective of May 17, Mr. Stevens, and particularly the context of that 
directive? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. I will ask you whether or not after the issuance of 
that directive, you consulted with your attorneys and with your asso- 
ciate, with Mr. Adams and Mr. Welch ? 

Secretary Stevens. I did. 

Mr. Jenkins. Please state whether or not, Mr. Secretary, some 2 
days following that directive, and particularly on May 19, you issued 
a release to the press, a statement to the press? 

Secretary Stevens. I did, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. I will ask you whether or not you consulted with Mr. 
Adams and Mr. Welch prior to the issuance of that statement? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. Jenkins. Do you have that statement with you in its original 
form ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes; I don't have the original but I have what 
I am sure is a copy. 

Mv. Jenkins. You have an exact copy of it, Mr. Stevens? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. I will ask you to now please read the exact copy of 
3^our press release of May 19, 1954, to this subconnnittee. 



1296 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Secretary Stevens. The statement by the Secretary of the Army 
was as follows : 

I wish to make it perfectly plain that the decisions and the acts on the part 
of the Army concerning the controversy presently being heard by the Senate sub- 
committee were the decisions and acts of the Department of the Army alone. At 
no time did the Army or I as its Secretary receive any orders from anyone in 
respect to the preparation or presentation of the Army's case. Specifically, the 
conference of January 21 was only for the purpose of obtaining an interpretation 
of existing directives. Actions taken by the Army prior or subsequent to the 
meeting were independent actions, taken on the Army's own responsibility. As 
Secretary of the Army, I believed and now believe that the Army, its Secretary 
and its counsel were subjected to improper pressures from Senator McCarthy, 
Mr. Cohn, and Mr. Carr in respect to Private G. David Schine. I am convinced 
that the Army had no other honorable course than to bring those acts which I 
considered improper to the attention of the United States Senate. No meeting 
or conference influenced my decision to protest and fight attempts to obtain pref- 
erential treatment for a private in the Army by the use of the power and prestige 
of the Senate committee chairmanship. 

That is the end of the statement. 

Mr. Jenkins. Where were you, Mr. Secretary, on January 21 ? 

Secretary Stevens. I was in the Far East. 

Mr. Jenkins. You knew nothing about any conference between Mr. 
Adams and any members of the Executive Department of the Govern- 
ment as of that date ? 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Mr. Jenkins. When did you first learn of such a meeting, Mr. Sec- 
retary ? 

Secretary Stevens. After my return from the Far East. 

Mr. Jenkins. Wliat was the date of that ? 

Secretary Stevens. The 3d of February. 

Mr. Jenkins. Without telling what was said, state whether or not 
Mr. Adams did discuss that meeting with you. 

Secretary Stevens. He did. 

Mr. Jenkins. And apprised you of the fact that such a meeting had 
been had ? 

Secretary Stevens. That is correct. 

Mr, Jenkins. I will ask you, Mr. Secretary, whether or not the state- 
ment you have just read under date of May 19, 1951, is a true and cor- 
rect statement of the facts. 

Secretary Stevens. It is. 

Mr. Jenkins. I have this one other question, Mr. Secretary. Did 
you hear Mr. Adams testify in this controversy ? 

Secretary Stevens. No, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. I will ask you or your counsel to turn to page 2619 
of the record, being in volume 15 and I read you an excerpt from the 
testimony of Mr. Adams, and his testimony having been given prior 
to the Presidential directive of May 17. I am now reading from 
the second paragraph on that page : 

At this meeting, Governor Adams asked me if I had a written record of all 
of the incidents with reference to Private Schine which I had discussed with 
them that day and which I have recounted here, and when I replied in the nega- 
tive he stated he thought I should prepare one. 

And, further, in his 45-page written statement, handed to me, prior 
to his testimony, there is this excerpt from that statement : 

Governor Adams asked me at this meeting if I had a written record of all 
of the incidents with reference to Private Schine which I discussed with him 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1297 

that clay, and when I replied in the negative he stated Ihat he thought I should 
prepare one. 

Were you acquainted with that fact, Mr. Stevens, when you prepared 
this statement of ]\Iay 19 ? 

]\Ir. Welch. Just a moment, ]Mr. Chairman, I am not quite sure to 
what you refer, Mr. Jenkins, when you say were you acquainted with 
that fact. 

Mr. Jenkins. Were you acquainted with the fact or the alleged fact 
as stated by Mr. Adams that Governor Adams asked ISIr. Adams 
whether or not he had prepared a written record of all of the incidents 
with reference to Private Schine, and that when he replied in the nega- 
tive Governor Adams stated to him that he thought he should prepare 
such a written record ? 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, the restatement of the question makes 
it quite clear, Mr. Jenkins, that you are asking for what took place at 
the conference, and between the testimony of ]\Ir. Adams, and the pres- 
ent moment, the Presidential directive has intervened. I think it is 
quite clear as between you and me what the expected answer would 
be, but the difficulty as to the answer is, I think, as clear to you as I 
think it is to me. 

Mr. Jenkins. I certainly have no intention, JNIr. Chairman, of im- 
pinging upon any Presidential directive, or asking this witness to 
violate it in any respect, and I was proceeding on the theory that this 
testimony of Mr. Adams was given prior to the time of the Presidential 
directive. 

Mr. Welch. It was. 

Mr. Jenkins. And the Presidential directive was not retroactive, 
and my question, of course, is directed to whether or not there is some 
discrepancy. I am not alleging it as a fact, but I intended to explore 
it, and, of course, it is your prerogative to advise the Secretary not 
to answer the question, if you so desire, ISIr. Welch. But my thought 
was perhaps the committee might conclude that there is some dis- 
crepancy in the testimony of INIr. Adams, and the statement of the 
Secretar}^, under date of May 19. 

Now, I will restate the question. 

Secretary Stevens. Could I make an attempt possibly to answer 
this question without at the same time violating the Presidential direc- 
tive ? If what you have in mind is, "Did we have an order to do some- 
thing along that line," my answer to that is, "No, we did not." 

Mr. Jenkins. I understand that. 

Mr. Secretary, in your statement of May 19, and I read from it: 

I wish to make it perfectly plain that the decisions and the acts on the part 
of the Army concerning the controversy presently being heard by the Senate 
subcommittee were the decisions and the acts of the Department of the Army 
alone. 

That is No. 1. 

At no time did the Army or I as its Secretary receive any oi'ders from anyone 
in respect to the preparation or presentation of the Army's case. Specifically the 
conference of January 21 was only for the purpose of obtaining an interpretation 
of existing directives. 

Now, as I understand that, Mr. Stevens, you state that the sole 
purpose of the conference of January 21 was for the purpose of ob- 
taining an interpretation of existing directives. That is correct; is 
it not? 



1298 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Secretary Stevens. Y,es, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And Mr. Adams says, Mr. John G. Adams, in his 
testimony, that at that conference he was directed by Governor Sher- 
man Adams to prepare a written record of all of the incidents with 
reference to Private Schine. 

Do you consider, Mr. Secretary, that there is any discrepancy be- 
tween your statement of May 19 and the testimony of Mr. John G. 
Adams ? 

Mr. Welch. Would you wait just one moment ? 

Senator ]\Iundt. While Mr. Welch is consulting the record, the 
Chair would like to state that there is a report, or an inquiry, on 
whether Mr. Stevens was sworn. Mr. Stevens was sworn at the begin- 
ning of the testimony and was not unsworn when he stepped clown and 
was told he would be recalled as a witness. Is that correct, Mr. 
Secretary ? 

Secretary Stevens. That is correct. 

Senator Mundt. You are testifying under oath ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. I think the difficulty between Mr. Jenkins and me is the 
use of his word either "directed" or "ordered" to prepare a statement. 
On page 2619, paragraph read by you reads : "And when I replied in 
the negative, he stated he thought I should prepare one." 

That does not strike me, Mr. Jenkins, as either a directive or an 
order to prepare such a statement. It was, I think, a suggestion that 
one be prepared and that only. 

Mr. Jenkins. Did Mr. Adams advise you, Mr. Stevens, that the 
suggestion was made to him that he prepare a written statement of 
events with respect to Schine ? 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, although that seems to me to be close 
to what ought not to be testified to, I am going to instruct the witness 
that he may answer. 

Secretary Stevens. May I have the question read, please ? 

Senator Mundt. The reporter will repeat the question. 

(The reporter read from his notes as requested) 

Secretary Ste\^ns. He did. He did, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Then, Mr. Secretary, were these events, as they have 
been designated in this record, and I believe consisting of 34 pages, 
prepared at the suggestion of Mr. Sherman Adams ? 

Secretary Stevens. I think, Mr. Jenkins, what it amounted to was 
Mr. Adams getting his file and records, and memoranda in connection 
with this matter, into shape. I do not consider that he had any order 
to do that. As I have said, I consider that he received a suggestion. 

Mr. Jenkins. Yes, Mr. Secretary, I understand that, and I am 
afraid that you did not directly answer my question. 

Now, in your statement you stated, or you state, that you never at 
any time received any order from the executive department of the 
Government, and that these charges and the decisions and the acts 
were the charges, the decisions, and the acts of the Army alone. 

In Mr. Adams' testimony he states that a suggestion was made to 
him by Mr. Sherman Adams that he prepare a statement of facts or 
events with respect to Schine. My question now is whether or not 
Mr. Adams or you, or anyone under the direction of either of you, did 
prepare those events consisting of 34 pages at the suggestion of Mr. 
Sherman Adams. Did you or not ? 



SPECIAL mVESTIGATION 1299 

Secretary Stevens. I would say the answer to that is "No." 

Mr. Jenkins. The answer is "No" ? 

Secretary Ste\tens. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And I believe you further state that you do not con- 
sider that there is any discrepancy whatever between your statement 
of May 19 and the testimony of Mr. John G. Adams as read to you? 

Secretary Ste\t:ns. None whatever. 

Mr. Jenkins. Just one other question, Mr. Stevens, and then I am 
sure I am through. When you were last on the witness stand, you 
were asked to consult with the Inspector General who prepared his 
report, and I believe that you stated that it perhaps consisted of some 
500 pages. And you were asked to have him designate to you the 
pertinent parts to enable you to answer the questions of Senator 
McCarthy, or Mr. Cohn. Has that been done, Mr. Secretary ? 

Secretary Ste^-ens. Yes. I haven't had a chance to read what 
turned out to be 619 pages. 

Mr. Jenkins. We are not going to ask you about that this morning, 
except I have been requested to ask whether or not when you are 
called back to the witness stand for a general examination you will be 
prepared to give specific answers to those questions. 

Secretary STE^•ENS. I will, sir. 

]\Ir. Jenkins. You say you will? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. That is all I care to ask of the Secretary, Mr. Chair- 
man. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair has no questions at this time. 

Senator McClellan? 

Senator McClellan. I think we ought to make it very clear that, 
in your press release of the 21st — is that the date, or the 19th — you 
said you did not act under directives, instructions or orders. That 
is the way I interpret your testimony. Is that correct? 

Secretary Ste^-ens. Yes, sir. 

Senator JNIcClellan. You did have, or Mr. Adams did have, a 
suggestion from Governor Adams that he prepare or make a memo- 
randum of the events regarding Private Schine; is that correct? 

Secretary Ste'st^ns. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. Now, Mr. Secretary, when Mr. Adams was 
on the stand a few days ago, a week ago today, I believe, when this 
committee recessed for a week, I asked him the simple question : Who 
had the responsibility after that meeting on January 21 ? That was 
the information I was trying to get. Is there any reason why he could 
not have answered the question that day, since you have answered it 
since, and now you are here a week thereafter answering it under 
oath ? If it violated the order then, it violate the order now. That 
was the position he took on the advice of counsel, that he couldn't 
answer it because it violated the President's directive. AVhen did you 
decide it didn't violate the President's directive ? 

Secretary Stevens. I didn't hear the testimony, Senator McClellan. 

Senator McClellan. It was a simple question. I asked him 
whether the responsibility shifted at that meeting pn January 21 
from the Secretary's office to a higher level of authority, and he was 
advised by counsel, his counsel, that he couldn't answer it, and that 

46620-— 54— pt. 36 8 



1300 SPECIAL mVESTIGATION" 

it violated the President's directive. For that reason, principally, 
I think, the meeting was adjourned, and we lost a whole week's time. 

Two days later you give out a statement to the press saying that 
you had all of the responsibility. 

Now, why couldn't it have been answered that day? 

Secretary Stevens. The only way I can answer your question. 
Senator McClellan, and I am most anxious to answer all of these 
questions, is that I think a modest amount of time was needed in which 
to determine what could or could not be said. 

Senator McClellan. So you have the whole responsibility, do you, 
and you take all of the responsibility for the charges that are made 
against you or against the Army with respect to this controversy ? 

Secretary Stevens. I took the responsibility for the charges that 
the Army has made. 

Senator McClellan. No, I am asking it the other way. I am asking 
the other way. I want to know if the countercharges are true, and are 
you the one who is responsible ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes. 

Senator McClellan. That is all. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dirksen ? I think he went up to make a 
quorum in the Judiciary Committee meeting, and we will pass him 
over and come back to him if he has returned by that time. 

Senator Jackson? 

Senator Jackson. Mr. Stevens, you have stated that pursuant to 
the statement that you released on May 19 that you had not received 
any orders from above, that the Army had initiated these charges, 
and I believe that is the substance of the statement. That is, that 
the Army took full responsibility for whatever charges were initiated. 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Senator Jackson. Now, let me ask this : Is it fair to say that while 
you received no orders from above, did you receive any assistance in 
the preparation of these charges from above? I mean from higher 
authority. 

Well, to refresh your recollection, I believe in response to a ques- 
Senator McCarthy asked this question : 

Where was the report prepared? Was that report prepared after Senator 
Potter wrote you? 

And your answer. Secretary Stevens : 

I think the report, the so-called chronology, was prepared by Mr. Brown of 
Mr. Hensel's office, along, I would say, starting about the 4th or 5th of March, 
somewhere in there. That is a guess. 

In other words, you did have assistance outside? 

Secretary Stevens. Oh, yes, we did. 

Senator Jackson. The thing I don't quite understand is, if you had 
assistance above the level of the Department of the Army, how did 
they get into it? How did the Defense Department get into this 
picture? 

Secretary Stevens. Well, as I think I have testified. Senator Jack- 
son — and in fact, I know I have testified — there was an increasing 
amount of interest on the part of Senators and Congressmen in regard 
to the matter of David Schine. This went on and accumulated over 
a period of time, and of course the Defense Department was just as 
aware of it as the Department of the Army. 



SPECIAL LWESTIGATION 1301 

NoTV, Mr. Adams was close to this thing, and connected with it, 
and it was quite a natural thing that the General Counsel's office of 
the Department of Defense would help him take this file and begin 
to put it in shape, so that if, as, and when the time came, that the in- 
formation should be sent — and it did come, and it was sent — and the 
original letter to Senator Potter went over the signature of Mr. Hen- 
sel. But concurrently, practically at the same time, as I recall it, 
the Department of the Army on its own communicated with all of the 
members of this committee, plus other Senators and Congressmen 
who had inquired about this matter, and sent the same material over 
the Department of the Army signature. 

Senator Jackson. I believe Senator Potter's letter was directed to 
the Secretary of Defense. 

Secretary Stevens. That is correct. 

Senator Jackson. Some of the other inquiries were directed to the 
Department of the Army. 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Senator Jackson. Well, the thing that I am trying to get clear 
here, I understand your statement, and that is that the Army assumes 
full responsibility for initiating these charges; but assistance was 
obtained from a level higher than the Department of the Army, 
namely, the Department of Defense, in connection with the prepara- 
tion of this chronology of events that was later released? 

Secretary Si"evens. That is correct. 

Senator Jackson. Now, there is one other question, and then I will 
conclude. You referred to the January 21 meeting, during which 
you, of course, were out of the country at the time. 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson. But I believe you stated that meeting was for the 
purpose of going over the legality of the various directives and Presi- 
dential orders. I don't quite understand why Henry Cabot Lodge 
would be present at such a meeting if that was the purpose of the 
meeting. I have nothing against Mr. Lodge, and I am just asking. 

Secretary Stevens. I don't know the answer to that question, sir. 

Senator Jackson. But you understood that the January 21 meeting 
was for that purpose ? 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Senator Jackson. That is all for now. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Potter ? 

Senator Poti-er. Mr. Secretary, is it your testimony that, irrespec- 
tive of the January 21 meeting, the order of events that has been the 
center of this controversy would have been made public by the Army? 

Secretary Stevens. No, we did not make it public. 

Senator Potter. Or issued by the Army? 

Secretary Stevens. We sent it to the interested Senators and 
Congressmen. 

Senator Potter. But irrespective — the point of my question is that, 
irrespective of the meeting of January 21, would the Army have 
sent this order of events to the Members of Congress that had re- 
quested it ? 

Secretary Stevens. I am quite sure we would have. 

Senator Potter. And this meeting in no way influenced you one way 
or the other as to whether or not you should comply with the requests 
of the various Members of Congress ? 



1302 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Secretary Steat:ns. It was a consultation, the same as there were 
consultations with the General Counsel's Office of the Department 
of Defense, Senator Potter, but the responsibility and the inde- 
pendence of the action was the Department of the Army. 

Senator Potter. And while this meeting — I am saying "this" and 
not "yours" — while this meeting could have been in an advisory 
capacity, nevertheless the action was yours, and the action would have 
taken place irrespective of this conference? 

Secretary Stevens. That is my opinion, sir. 

Senator Potter. That is your opinion ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Senator Potter. Mr. Chairman, that is the only question that I 
have. However, I would like to make this statement. Unfortunately 
I have some important official business in New York, and I have to 
leave the committee at 11 : 30. I will not be back until tomorrow 
morning. I explain that at this time, and I ask the chairman's per- 
mission to be excused at 11 : 30. 

Senator Mundt. Very well. 

Senator Symington ? 

Senator Symington. Mr. Stevens, to whom does Mr. Adams report 'i 

Secretary Ste\^ns. He reports to me. 

Senator St]Mington. Directly ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, directly. 

Senator Stjiington. To whom do you report ? 

Secretary Stevens. I report to the Secretary of Defense. 

Senator Symington. Mr. Wilson ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. To whom does he report ? 

Secretary Stevens. He reports to the President. 

Senator Symington. That is the line of authority, is it not ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. Any orders that were given to Mr. Adams as 
orders, are given by you ; is that correct ? 

Secretary Stevens. That is correct. 

Senator Symington. And any orders that are given to you as orders 
are given directly to you by the Secretary of Defense ? 

Secretary Steatens. That is right. 

Senator Symington. Is that correct ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. Therefore, regardless of what was said or who 
was at a meeting of staff members at the Wliite House, none of those 
people could give an order to Mr. Adams at that time ; is that correct ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, I would say that is correct, Senator 
Symington. 

Senator Symington. You know the organization pretty well and 
I do, too ; is that correct or not ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, it is. 

Senator Symington. Many times members of the White House staff 
used to call up and say it is the White House calling, but that was 
never an order. The orders to you come from the Secretary of De- 
fense ; is that correct ? 

Secretary Stevens. It is absolutely correct. 

Senator Symington. And orders to Mr. Adams eome from you; is 
that correct? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1303 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. And therefore, on the basis of echelons in 
this Government of ours, nobody could have given an order to Mr. 
Adams to make up this particular group of charges we are talking 
about, except you yourself; is that correct? 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Senator Symington. And nobody could have given you an order to 
do it, except the Secretary of Defense himself or somebody in his 
Department to whom he had delegated that responsibility and had 
so told you ; is that correct ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. Did the President ever tell you that he was 
delegating any authority with respect to this situation to any members 
of the staff who were at that meeting? 

Secretary Ste\t:ns. He did not. 

Senator Symington. Did the Secretary of Defense ever tell you 
that he was delegating any authority to any member of the group at 
that meeting? 

Secretary Stevens. He did not. 

Senator Symington. Therefore, if Mr. Adams acted based on that, 
he could only act under your direct order ? 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Senator Symington. Although he could take advice from anybody 
in the administrative side of the Government ? 

Secretary Stevens. Correct. 

Senator Symington. Is that correct? 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Senator Symington. No more questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator JNIundt. Senator Dworshak? 

Senator Dworshak. No questions. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch? 

Mr. Welch. None. 

Senator Mundt. Senator IMcCarthy or Mr. Cohn ? 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Secretary, I have a few brief questions. 
You said that no one except you could give orders to Mr. Adams to 
prepare those charges, in answer to Senator Syminoton's question. 
My question now is did you give those orders to Mr. Adams ? 

Secretary Stevens. As I have testified. Senator McCarthy 

Senator McCarthy. Just did you or did not you? 

Secretary Stevens, i was out of the country at the time the meet- 
ing took place. So I did not, as of that particular time, issue an 
order. 

Senator McCarthy. Now, then, who did? That is the question. 
Who di ^, give the order or make the suggestion to Mr. Adams, if it is 
a suggestion, and he acted upon it, who made the suggestion or gave 
the order? 

Secretary Stevens. I think I will have to ask IMr. Adams. 

Senator 'McCarthy. Could I have your press release, incidentally, 
the one you read into the record this morning? 

Mr. Bryan. Here is a copy of it. 

Senator McCarthy. Thank you very much. 

Senator Mundt. I think the Secretary is ready to answer your ques- 
tion, Senator. 



1304 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Secretary Stevens. May I have the question read ? 

Senator Mundt. The reporter will repeat the question, please. 

(The reporter read from his notes as requested.) 

Secretary Stevens. I think that Mr. Adams acted, used his own 
judgment, acted on his own while I was away. 

Senator McCarthy. Have you heard that he did get advice from a 
conference at the White House while you were away ? 

Secretary Stevens. No, sir, I don't think I have heard that. 

Senator McCarthy. Haven't you read the papers? 

Secretary Stevens. I didn't see it in the papers. 

Senator McCarthy. Didn't you read that he went to a conference 
at the White House, rather at the Attorney General's office, I beg 
your pardon. Let's change the question. Didn't you hear that he 
went to the Attorney General's Office? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, I did ; but not the White House. 

Senator McCarthy. At a meeting at which there was present the 
Attorney General, the Deputy Attorney General, two White House 
aides or advisers, the Ambassador to the U. N. ? Did you know about 
that? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you hear that he got his advice there for 
the preparation of the charges? 

Secretary Stevens. No, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you read in the paper that he had gotten 
suggestions ? 

Secretary Ste\^ns. Well, that wouldn't necessarily make it a fact, 
if I had read it in the papers, Senator. 

Senator McCarthy. Were you curious enough, Mr. Stevens, to read 
his testimony after you read it in the papers? Before you came here 
this morning, did you read his testimony to see whether or not he 
received his 

Secretary Stevens. No ; I did not. I did not read the testimony. 

Senator McCarthy. So, at this moment, at the time you issued 
the press release, you had not read the testimony of what occurred at 
that Justice Department conference? 

Secretary Stevens. Mr. Adams had informed me a long time ago 
with respect to that meeting. 

Senator McCarthy. So, then, as of the time you made the press 
release, saying that you alone were responsible, or something to that 
effect, you knew that the charges were prepared as a result of a con- 
ference with Wliite House aides 

Secretary Stevens. No; I did not know that. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you know it now ? 

Secretary Stevens. No, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Tell us what you do know now, will you. Bob 'i 

Secretary Stevens. Is that 

Senator McCarthy. That is a question. 

Secretary Stevens. What is the question? 

Senator McCarthy. Just tell us what you do know about this now. 
I assume that you had enough curiosity in this to find out why Adams 
or someone else made these charges. You tell us now they were not 
in your order. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1305 

Secretary Stevens. No; I didn't say that. We were talking 
about 

Senator McCarthy. Then were they on your order? 

Secretary Ste^-ens. These charges? Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. They were on your order? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. When was the order given? 

Secretary Ste%'ens. The order was — I don't know the exact date of 
it, but sometime following my return from the Far East. 

Senator McCarthy. Was it a written order or verbal order ? 

Secretary Ste\t:ns. Verbal. 

Senator McCarthy, Can I read your testimony to you, Mr. Secre- 
tary, and see if you want to change your answer ? 

Page 1949 : 

Who decided to prepare it. 

Secretary Sterns. Who decided to prepare it? 

Senator McCarthy, Yes. 

Answer : 

I don't know who decided to prepare it. I know that counsel got in touch 
with me and asked me to see Mr. Brown and discuss these matters with him, 
and I did that. I assume that Mr. Hensel was probably acting under orders of 
the Secretary of Defense. I do not know. 

Senator McCakthy. These charges were put out entitled, "Army Charges" or 
something to that effect. You were the Secretary of the Army when they were 
put out. That is obvious, is it not? 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Senator McCakthy. Did you order them put out? 

Secretary Stevens. No, sir ; I did not order them put out. 

Which is true, was that true or is your testimony today true ? 

Secretary Stevt:ns. The responsibility for these charges being put 
out is mine, completely. 

Senator McCarthy, You just told me you ordered them put out, 
Mr, Secretary. Did you or did you not ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir; I did. 

Senator McCarthy. When did you order them put out ? 

Secretary Ste\t:ns, Well, we put them out — we sent them up to the 
committee here, I think it was on the tenth of March. 

Senator McCarthy. When did you order them put out ? 

Secretary Stevens. As I have said, I can't tell you exactly what 
day. Sometime following my return from the Far East. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Secretary, you were under oath when you 
testified last time? 

Secretary STE^TNS. That is right. 

Senator 'McCarthy. You are under oath today ? 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Senator McCarthy, The last time I said: "Did you order them 
put out?'' Your answer : "No, sir, I did not order them put out." 

Secretary Stevens. Well 

Senator ' McCarthy. Let me finish the question, Mr, Secretary. 
Today, I say did you order them put out and you say, "Yes, sir, I did 
order them put out." 

Secretary Stevens. Maybe I misunderstand what you mean by put 
out. If you mean by put out, published, I did not put them out. If 
you mean furnished to this committee and other members of the Con- 
gress, yes, I did that. It is my responsibility. 



1306 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

{Senator McCarthy. Did you order them sent to Members of Con- 
gress ? 

{Secretary Stevens. Yes. 

Senator McCarthy. When did you order that? 

Secretary Stevens. I think it was on the tenth of March. 

Senator McCarthy. And so far as you know, no one in the executive 
had anything to do with that ? 

Secretary Stevens. As I have said, we conferred with the Depart- 
ment of Defense officials, and you have referred to this other meeting 
of the 21st. Certainly, there were consultations and advice. But the 
responsibility is mine. 

Senator McCarthy. But you did get advice from the executive? 

Secretary Stevens. Get advice from the executive? 

Senator McCarthy. Yes; in regard to putting these charges out. 

Secretary Stevens. As I say, I talked to Mr. Brown of Mr. Hensel's 
office, to that extent, yes; and I talked to Mr. Hensel, too. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you get advice from anyone in the execu- 
tive department? 

Secretary Stevens. That is the executive department. 

Senator McCarthy. Other than Mr. Hensel and Mr. Brown ? 

Secretary Stevens. Very likely I did. 

Senator McCarthy. Who? 

(The witness consulted with his counsel.) 

Senator McCarthy, Who? 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, the question of course is the impinge- 
ment of an Executive order on the witness' testimony. 

Senator McCarthy. If he wants to refuse. 

Senator Mundt. It is a little difficult for the Chair to understand 
your interpretation if it applies to certain members of the executive 
department and not others, but of course the responsibility for making 
the interpretation, Mr. Welch, is yours. 

Mr. Welch. Could I have it read? 

Senator McCarthy. Who in the executive department advised with 
you as to putting these charges out ? 

Secretary Stevens. I told you Mr. Hensel, and with Mr, Brown of 
his office, and I also talked with Mr. Seaton and there may have been 
others, but I don't recall them at the moment, Senator. 

Senator McCarthy, You cannot remember any others? 

Secretary Stevens. I do not recall any at the moment. 

Senator McCarthy. You say that these charges were not published 
as a result of any suggestions from the executive department? 

Secretary Stevens. These charges were furnished to members of 
this committee, and other interested Senators and Congressmen as a 
result of their increasing interest in the subject of Pvt. G. David 
Schine. 

Senator McCarthy. Now, I am going to bring something up, which 
I did not want to bring up, and in fact I had talked to one of our Sen- 
ators here at the table here about this. At the time we discussed it 
we didn't feel it was too significant, however in view of this conference 
of the 21st I consider it of considerable significance now. I ask this 
in view of your statement, repeated statement, that the charges were 
made public as a result of the requests from Senator Potter. If you 
were to learn now that the charges were written at the suggestion of 
Mr. Adams of the White House staff, and Mr. Rogers of the Attor- 
ney General's office, and if you were to learn that before Senator Potter 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION' 1307 

wrote that letter he received a call from hi<rh in the executive depart- 
ment — and I am not speaking about the Pentagon — asking him if he 
wouldn't please write that letter so that these cliarges could be made 
public, in other words he would be used as a vehicle for that, would 
3'ou still stick to your press release that you and you alone were re- 
sponsible? 

May I say I am not going to ask Senator Potter or anyone else to 
name the executive official, and I have fairly high respect for the in- 
dividual involved. I am sure he did not do it on his own. But can 
you answer the question, or is that too involved ? 

Secretary Stevens. It is too long and too involved and too compli- 
cated and too hypothetical. 

Senator Potter. A point of order, in order to clarify the question. 
The Senator asked Secretary Stevens about somebody in a high position 
in the executive branch of the Government requesting that a letter be 
directed to the Secretary of Defense to secure this information. I 
agree that that occurred. However, I think that the purpose of the let- 
ter was not in accordance with what the Senator stated. It was my 
understanding on this conversation with a high official in the executive 
branch of the Government that this report was to be released to vari- 
ous Members of the Senate and the Congress. But there had been no 
requests from the majority side of this committee. 

In all fairness to us who had to assume the responsibility, I felt we 
should have a copy of this report. My letter was not to be used as a 
vehicle for securing the report, but it was to be used in an effort to get 
the report at least as soon as other INIembers of Congress. 

I think in all fairness to the official which the Senator alludes that 
we should clarify that matter. 

Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy's time has expired. We will 
go around the wheel. Mr. Jenkins? Do you have any questions? 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman, I have one or two other questions. 

Now, Mr. Secretary, in your statement of May 19 you state that you 
and you alone are responsible for the preparation of the charges and 
the prosecution of the charges. That is correct, is it not ? 

Secretary Stevens. I think it says in the Department of the Army 
alone. 

Mr. Jenkins. The Department of the Army ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

INIr. Jenkins. And you state that you take orders only from Secre- 
tary Wilson ? 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Mr. Jenkins. And that ]\Ir. Adams takes orders only from you ? 

Secretary Stevens. Well. I wouldn't say only from me, but he cer- 
tainly reports directly to me, and he is one of my staff. 

Mr. Jenkins. As I understand it, you told Senator Symington, in 
response to one of his questions, that Mr. Adams received his orders 
ancl certainly orders pertaining to the preparation and prosecution of 
these charges, directly from you. Is that correct? 

Secretary Stevens. That is correct, yes. 

Mr. Jenkins. Now, you were away from the country, and in the 
Far East, as we understand it, on January 21. 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Mr. Jenkins. Did you know of a meeting between your counsel, 
Mr. Adams, and the Attorney General, ISIr. Brownell, and Mr. Kogers 

40020"— 54— pt. 3G 4 



1308 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

and Mr. Sherman Adams and Mr. Henry Cabot Lodge, before you 
returned to this country, Mr. Stevens ? 

Secretary Stevens. No, not until after I had gotten back. 

Mr, Jenkins. And you returned when ? 

Secretary Stevens. The 3d of February. 

Mr. Jenkins. The 3d day of February ? 

Secretary Ste\':ens. Yes. 

Mr. Jenkins. Which would be some approximately 10 or 12 days 
subsequent to the meeting of January 21. 

Secretary Ste\^ns. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Now, you have heard Mr. Adams testimony that I 
read, in which he stated that on January 21 a suggestion was made 
to him, by Mr. Sherman Adams, that he prepare a statement of all of 
the events concerning G. David Schine. That is correct, is it not, Mr. 
Secretary ? 

Secretary Stevens. I would like to have that question read back, 
please. 

Mr. Jenkins. You have heard certainly a part of the testimony of 
Mr. John G. Adams read, in which he stated that Mr. Sherman Adams 
suggested to him on January 21 that he prepare a statement or a 
memorandum of all events concerning G. David Schine 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, the words are "written record," Mr. 
Jenkins. 

Mr. Jenkins. That he prepare a written record. We will use that, 
Mr. Welch. Frankly, it means the same thing to me. [Continuing] 
— of all events concerning G. David Schine. You have heard his testi- 
mony which I read ? 

Secretary Ste^^ns. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And Mr. Secretary, do you know as a matter of fact 
that 2 days thereafter on January 23 Mr. Adams began the prepara- 
tion of that statement ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Well, he did not begin the preparation of that state- 
ment at your suggestion, did he ? 

Secretary Stevens. No, I was out of the country. 

Mr. Jenkins. I want to read you another excerpt from the testi- 
mony of Mr. Adams. That is on page 2625, Mr. Welch : 

Mr. Adams, when did j'on begin dictating this memorandum which was sug- 
gested to you by Mr. Rogers? 

You understand we are referring to Mr. Eogers, Assistant Attorney 
General to Mr. Brownell. Is that correct ? 
Secretary Ste\t:ns. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Jenkins (reading) : 

Mr. Adams. On the following morning, which was the 23d of January, I had 
been very disturbed about the substance of the meeting in Senator McCarthy's 
apartment and I had been disturbed about the events of the week. 

You probably learned upon your return, and you certainly know 
now, that Mr. Adams had a conference with Senator INIcCarthy in his 
apartment on the evening of January 22, 1 day after his meeting with 
Mr. Sherman Adams and others. That is correct, isn't it ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes. 

Mr. Jenkins. Now, you being out of the country, and you not hav- 
ing made any suggestion to Mr. Adams that he becin the preparation 



SPECIAL IXVKSTIGATTON" 1309 

of this memorandum, and INIr. Adams having testified that on the 
21st day of January Mr. Sherman Adams suggested that he do so, 
and perhaps Mr. Kogers suggested that he do so, would you not now 
say, Mr. Secretary, in all fairness, that Mr. Adams pre])ared or started 
the preparation of all events, a written document of all events per- 
taining to G. David Schine at the suggestion of either Mr. Sherman 
Adams or Mr. Rogers? Is that not a fair assumption, Mr. Stevens? 

Secretary Stevens. "Well, looking at Mr. Adams' testimony here, he 
says he was very much disturbed, and I think he simply began to put 
these things down and get it in shape so that he could rej^ort to me 
when I got back, and it would seem to me to be a very natural thing 
to have done. 

JNIr. Jenkins. It further says that 2 days prior to the preparation 
of this statement, Mr. Sherman Adams suggested that he do it. 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman. Once again this statement, Mr. Jen- 
kins, bothers me, and if you will read on page 2626 you will find that 
what INIr. Adams did as a result of tlie suggestion was to dictate a 
whole series of memorandums for his fiiles about the events, and at a 
later occasion those were all pulled together and were used as the basis 
for the so-called statement of events sent to Senator Potter. 

Xow, what ]Mr. Adams — I am not sure whether he is through 
testifying about it or not — but what he did was to dictate as any 
lawyer might, a whole series of memorandums, a resume of his diary 
entries, and n'sume of his tele]^hone calls, and get together what you, 
Mr. Jenkins, and I, would call the raw material for his files. 

Now, that unquestionably took place. But that, sir, is one step, one 
long step removed, and one long step prior to the preparation of the 
paper headed "Events." 

Mr. Jenkins. Did he not further state, Mr. "Welch, that that state- 
ment of events which he began prej^aring on January 23 was used as 
a basis u])on which this chronological 34:-page statement of events was 
prepared ? 

]\Ir. Welch. I think he must have so testified. 

Mr. Jenkins. He must have so testified. "\^ery well. 

Now, Mr. Stevens, again he did not advise that he prepared this 
raw statement, as Mr. Welch calls it, from which later the ol-page 
document was prepared, and Mr. Adams says that he was advised by 
Mr. Sherman Adams and Mr. Rogers, to so do. 

My question now is. Isn't it a fair assumption that the basis upon 
which the oi-page events was prepared was prepared by ]\Ir. John 
Adams at the suggestion of Mr. Sherman Adams and Mr. Rogers? 

Secretary Stevens. I personally don't feel that way about it. 

INIr. Jenkins. You don't feel that way about it ? 

Secretary Stevens. No, I think that as a good lawyer, and a man 
who was very much disturbed with the events that took place, such 
as the meeting reported with Senator ^IcCarthy at Senator McCar- 
thy's home, and I think it was in an orderly getting of things together, 
and having some kind of a file on this situation to discuss with him 
when I got back. Certainly he did that on his own initiative, and 
perhaps as a result of a suggestion, but certainly not as a result of 
any order. 

Mr. Jenkins. Very well. 



1310 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Now, did you sny — it is conceded tliat Mr. Adams is a good lawyer, 
and he was conferring with good lawyers, I am sure you will concede 
that, Mr. Brownell, Mr. Rogers 

Secretary Ste\^ns. Yes, sir. 

]\Ir. Jenkins. Mr, Adams, Sherman Adams, Henry Cabot Lodge, 
and others; he was conferring and ad^dsing with them. He states in 
his testimony under oath that they made a suggestion, that at least 
two of the parties present, good lawyers, Mr. Sherman Adams — I 
don't know whether is a lawyer or not ; Mr. Eogers is a lawyer — they 
made a suggestion that he prepare, as Mr. Welch says, in the raw, a 
statement of all events concerning G. David Schine. That is con- 
ceded, isn't it? That is his testimony. You heard it read this 



mornmg. 



Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And it is conceded that on the 23d day of Jan- 
uary, 2 daj's thereafter, he began the preparation of such a statement. 
You heard that testimony ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Stevens, do I now understand you to say that 
perhaps, being the good lawyer that Mr. Adams is, and having con- 
sulted with good lawyers, he began the preparation of this statement 
from which the 34-page document was finally drafted, at the sugges- 
tion of Mr. Sherman Adams and Mr. Eogers? Is that a fair as- 
sumption, Mr. Secretary ? 

Secretary Stevens. Well, there doesn't seem to be any doubt that the 
suggestion was made. 

Mr. Jenkins. Do you think that your attorney followed it, or that 
he was influenced by it to any extent, in the preparation of this state- 
ment in the raw, as Mr. Welch called it ? 

Secretary Stevens. Well, I think we had better ask Mr. Adams that 
question, because I wasn't in the country. I don't know exactly what 
Mr. Adams — how he reacted under that set of circumstances. 

Mr. Jenkins. We are trying to find out who inspired the prepara- 
tion of the first link in the chain of events that led to what is occurring 
here today, this investigation. I thought I understood you to say a 
while ago — and you may correct me if I am in error — that you said 
perhaps or no doubt Mr. Adams was following the suggestion of those 
parties with whom he conferred on January 22. Am I right or am 
I wrong ? 

Secretary Stevens. He certainly apparently had that suggestion, 
and as a good lawyer, he commenced to put this raw material to- 
gether. There is no doubt of that, Mr. Jenkins. 

Mr. Jenkins. That is, pursuant to that suggestion? 

Secretary Stevens. Not necessarily. 

Mr. Jenkins. I don't know about "necessarily." But was he influ- 
enced, in your opinion, to any extent 

Secretary Stevens. Mr. Jenkins, in all fairness, I think you would 
have to ask Mr. Adams what is going through his mind in that kind 
of a connection. 

Mr. Jenkins. All right. 

I have no further questions to ask. 

Senator Mundt. At the same conference, on January 21, Mr. Adams 
testified that the Deputy Attorney General, Mr. Eogers, suggested that 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1311 

he discuss tliis situation concerninfr Colin and Schine, and concerning 
also the subpena of the loyalty records, with one of the Democratic 
members of the committee — I should say a Democrat who was for- 
merly a member of the committee ; he was not a member at the same 
time — Senator INIcClellan, 

Did Mr. Adams acquaint you of this fact, that he had been asked by 
the Deputy Attorney General to discuss the situation with the former 
ranking Democratic member of the subcommittee? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, I learned about that later; yes. 

Senator Mundt. He followed that suggestion? 

Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman, Senator McCarthy just reen- 
tered the room. Would you mind going over that colloquy again so 
he can hear it. 

Senator Mundt. I will be happy to have the reporter read the 
colloquy. 

(Whereupon, the record was read by the reporter as above 
recorded.) 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, that allusion is apparently to a con- 
ference with Senator McClellan. I think the record shows that that 
conference took place prior to the meeting at the Department of 
Justice. 

Secretary Stevens. On the 19th of January, I believe. 

Senator INIundt. It wasn't at the 21st conference he made the sug- 
gestion ? Very well. I thought it was all at the same conference. 

Mr. Welch. Thank you, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Thanlv you for correcting me. 

The next question would be equally valid either way: Would it 
seem a logical assumption that if Mr. Adams followed the suggestion 
of Mr. Rogers in the first instance, he might also have followed it in 
the second instance ? 

Secretary Stevens. I am not sure I understand that. We have two 
different events. We have a meeting of the 21st 

Senator Mundt. Does it seem a logical assumption that if Mr. 
Adams followed the suggestion that Mr. Rogers made about going to 
see Senator McClellan, that he would have also followed the sugges- 
tion that Mr. Rogers made, to reduce to writing this chronology of 
events ? 

Secretary Stevens. I think Mr. Adams, like myself, is amenable 
to suggestions for trying to accomplish something. 

Senator Mundt. I think that is entirely a logical assumption, and 
1 simply wanted to clear up the record. 

Secretary Stevens. There were no orders given to do anything along 
that line. 

Senator INIundt. It was not an order, I am sure, that he should talk 
to Senator McClellan, but a suggestion. 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Senator Mundt. The testimony here of Mr. Adams, reading from 
page 2G18, Mr. Welch, Mr. Adams' testimony, he says : 

For that reason, I requested an interview with the Attorney General, which 
Mr. Rogers arranged- for the next day, which was the 21st of January. Later 
that afternoon — 

still the 21st of January — 

Mr. Rogers telephoned me and asked me if I would go and see Senator McClellan. 



1312 SPECIAL rNTVESTTGATION" 

Mr. Welch. TVliat page, sir ? 

Senator Mundt. 2618. 

Mr. Welch. Wliat part of the page ? 

Senator Mundt. At the beginning of the first complete new para- 
graph, starting with the words "For that reason." 

Mr. Welch. Now I have found it. 

Senator Mundt. We are apparently confused somewhere on dates. 
[Reading :] 

For that reason I requested an interview with tlie Attorney General, which Mr. 
Rogers arranged for the next day, which was the 21st of January. Later that 
afternoon, Mr. Rogers telephoned me and asked me if I would go and see Sena- 
tor McClellan, whom I did not know, and tell him the story, and how these mat- 
ters came to he related. He arranged the appointment. I went to see Senator 
McClellan about 6 o'clock in the evening of January 20th. 

It was from that that I quoted the suggestion. 

Secretary Stevens. I would like to correct my date. I said the 19th, 
but it was the 20th. 

Senator Mundt. Very good. 

I have no further questions. 

Senator McClellan ? 

Senator McClellan. It seems like my name has been taken in vain 
while I stepped out of the room for a moment. You say Mr. Adams 
related to you that he had had a conference with me at the instance 
of Mr. Rogers, Deputy Attorney General ? 

Secretary Stevens. I learned about it some time later, Senator Mc- 
Clellan. I was in the Far East at the time. 

Senator McClellan. Did he relate to you the substance of that con- 
ference as to wdiat was said ? 

Secretary Stevens. I don't recall the details of it. 

Senator McClellan. Did he tell you that I suggested that he go to 
the Republican members of the committee ? 

Secretary Stevens. I just don't remember what he told me about 
that particular meeting. 

Senator IMcClellan. Did he tell you that I suggested, after he gave 
me this information, that I would not use it unless he put it in writing ? 
Did he tell you that? 

Secretary Stevens. I don't recall that. 

Senator McClellan. He didn't tell you that? 

Secretary Stevens. I wouldn't say that he didn't, Senator McClel- 
lan. 

Senator McClellan. Did he tell you that the purpose of coming to 
see me was because the Loyalty Board was being subpenaed? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. And that if they refused, of course, he knew — 
and you weren't here, but you would know, too — that if the Loyalty 
Board refused to answer a subpena, the only action the committee 
could take would be to either adopt a resolution calling on the Senate 
to cite the members of the Board for contempt, or to reject such a 
resolution, and that such a resolution would have to come before the 
full committee, of which I was a member? You knew that, didn't 
you ? Did he relate that to you ? 

Secretary Stevens. I don't recall all of that specifically, Senator 
McClellan. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION" 1313 

Senator McClellan. Try to recall whether he told you that I ad- 
vised him to go to the Republican members of the Senate. Can you 
recall that? 

Senator Mundt. I will accept that, sir, and if you did your advice 
was much more helpful than that of the Deputy Attorney General 
Avho told him to go to the Democrats. 

Senator McClellan. I am not quite certain of that, and I think if 
you had listened to us, you would not have this mess on your hands. 

Senator Dirksen. I have no question. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Jackson? 

Senator Jackson. Mr. Stevens, on page 1458 you testified, and I 
quote, referring to this report in connection 

Mr. Welch. Wait one moment until we get it. 

Senator Jackson. Surely, it is page 1458. Start with Senator 
McCarthy's question : "Do you know whether you did or not?" And 
do you find that ? 

Mr. Welch. Yes. 

Senator Jackson (reading) : Do you know \Yhetlier or not, it is rather im- 
portant, Mr. Secretary, to know how come on this particular night there ap- 
parently was conceived the idea for this smear campaign against my staff. And 
I would like to know who originated and who talked to whom. 

This is with reference to the meeting in the Pentagon the night of 
February 24. I believe that is correct, [reading:] 

Secretary Stevens. If it was originated then or any other time which I very 
much doubt, I had no knowledge of it and I had nothing to do with it. 

Senator McCarthy. You said you had nothing to do with it? 

Secretary STE^'ENS. Absolutely nothing to do with it. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you ever discuss with Mr. Adams the preparation of 
these charges? 

Secretary Stevens. I am sure that I must have talked to Mr. Adams about it. 
After all, he was a Department counselor, yes. 

Now, the point I want to try to make here if I can summarize, very 
briefly, after all of this discussion, what your position is with refer- 
ence to this matter. 

Secretary Stevens. My position is that this is not a smear cam- 
paign. 

Senator Jackson. You mean the charges that you filed ? 

Secretary Stevens. That is correct. 
^ Senator Jackson. Now, Mr. Secretary, do I understand your posi- 
tion to be that while you were out of the eountry, in the Far East, ]\Ir. 
Adams did have conversations with various people, including this 
meeting of January 21, and conferred with other people probably in 
the Defense Department? 

Secretary Ste\tens. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson. And then he proceeded to prepare from memory 
rough notes which was the basis later for the preparation of the 
charges by Mr. Brown and Mr. Hensel's office, and which you later 
ordered released to the members of the committee and other parties 
on the Hill who had requested the information ? 

Secretary Ste^tins. That is right. 

Senator Jackson. Is that the substance of it? I am trying m my 
own mind to just get the situation clarified. I do understand, from 
you, then, that counsel and advice was received from people above, 
that is in the Defense Department, and over at this meeting on Janu- 



1314 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION" 

ary 21 by ]Mr. iVdams, and perhaps others in the Department of the 
Army, that advice was taken back to the Department of the Army 
and then you made the decision as on whether this material should 
be released. Is that the substance of this business ? 

Secretary Stevens. I think that is the substance of it; it is my 
responsibility. 

Senator Jackson. No order came from above, then, in higher au- 
thority directing you to release this information ? 

Secretary Stevens. No, sir, Senator Jackson. 

Senator Jackson. The information was obtained through the col- 
laboration of a lot of people in the executive branch ? 

Secretary Stevens. That is correct. 

Senator Jackson. And it is your understanding that at this meeting 
on January 21, no order was given to release that information, but 
only to collect it, and to put it down in memoranda form ? 

Secretary Stevens. There was no order; there was a suggestion 
made about having some memoranda on the subject. 

Senator Jackson. But no order was made which was the basis — 
there was no order issued at that time which later became the basis for 
your order to release this ? 

Secretary Stevens. No, sir. 

.Senator Jackson. Now, Mr. Chairman, there is one other thing that 
I in fairness to Senator Lodge, I must say that the record is a bit 
confused. I understand by hearsay, that he was working at the White 
House after the recess of the United Nations and I believe there was 
a press release, I am informed, issued by the "Wliite House saying that 
he was working for the A^^iite House on matters relating to the Hill. 
I want to be fair, and I know that the public must be a bit confused 
why the representative to the United Nations was at this meeting, 
and I would suggest that appropriate officials supply this committee 
with the release of what the White House gave to the press at the time 
he went to work if that is the fact, for the White House. 

I just want the record to be complete. It has been mentioned here, 
and I mentioned it, and I want to be fair. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair will be happy to have it put as an 
exhibit if Senator Jackson shall provide such a release. 

Senator Jackson. I do not have it, but I assume the executive branch 
of the Government could supply that, and I would like to ask ]\lr. 
Welch as counsel if he could find out from the White House if that 
is a fact. I am doing this only as a matter of fairness, and I am asking 
only, Mr. Welch, that you give the committee that which has previ- 
ously been made public. I assume there will be no problem of the 
Executive order. 

IMr. Welch. You flatter me when you imply I have ready access 
to the White House and I had reached such dizzy heights. If, how- 
ever, I can help you, I think your inquiry is a sensible one, and if there 
is anything I can do to help, I will be happy to do it. 

Senator Jackson. The press has called to my attention the fact that 
a press release has been issued by the White House, I believe, back 
in November, that after the recess of the United Nations, he was work- 
ing on leave with the White House in connection with matters on Capi- 
tol Hill or matters relating to the Senate. I am only making this 
observation, in a spirit of fairness so that the record will be complete. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1315 

Mr. Welch. I appreciate that and I will be glad to cooperate within 
my power, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dirksen. Senator Potter is necessarily 
absent on official business. 

Senator Symington ? 

Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman, I feel a little like the fat lady 
when the circus tent fell down. She said she was up to her neck in 
midgets. I am up to my neck in legal talk here about this situation, 
and I would like to get out of here before fall. I would like to ask 
the Secretary this question: You are a member of the Executive 
branch of the Government, is that correct ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. And in your absence, Mr. Adams decided that 
he would make up a record of the conversations that he had had with 
respect to the problem of Mr. G. David Schine, is that right ? 

Secretary Ste^tns. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. He submitted those to you, when you got back 
from your trip ? 

Secretary Ste\t:ns. That is right. 

Senator Symington. After you received those, did you discuss those 
with Secretary "Wilson ? 

Secretary Stevens. I kept Secretary Wilson from time to time in- 
formed, yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. Did you discuss those with anybody else in 
the Executive branch of the Government that you can remember 
otf-hand? 

Secretary Ste\t:ns. I don't think outside of the Department of 
Defense, Senator. 

Senator Symington. But at one time, the executive branch of the 
Government with respect to the legislative branch, decided they had 
a problem and that they had to release that problem because they felt, 
as I understand it based on your charges, that improper pressure 
had been used against the executive branch, and therefore the entire 
executive branch in effect was involved, is that correct? 

Secretary Stevens. Well, that covers a lot of territory. Senator 
Symington. 

Senator Symington. I just want to find out if we can, if we can 
move on. This is the 21st or the 20th day of the hearings, and we 
have had two witnesses so far, you and Mr. Adams, and I am trying 
to push it on. 

Would there be anybody in the executive branch that you know who 
would say they didn't want to make the charges ? 

Secretary STE^TNs. No ; I don't know of anybody. 

Senator Symington. And therefore, as you see it, it is a matter for 
the executive side of the Government that these charges have been 
made about pressures for which you take the responsibility for issuing, 
because it is under your jurisdiction. Is that correct ? 

Secretary Stevens. That is correct. 

Senator Symington. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dworshak? 

Senator Dwoeshak. I have no questions. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch? 

Mr. Welch, I have no questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy or ]Mr. Cohn ? 



1316 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Stevens, let's see if we can get one thing 
finally clear, I hope. 

Did you or did you not order Mr. Adams or anyone else to prepare 
the charges that were finally filed ? 

By charges, I mean those against Mr. Carr, Mr. Cohn, and myself. 

Secretary Stevens. Mr. Brown of Mr. Hensel's office did the work 
in connection with the preparation of that chronology. 

Senator McCarthy. The question is did you ever order anyone in 
the military to prepare the charges? You can answer that yes or no. 

Secretary Stevens. Well, I can't answer that yes or no. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Stevens, either you did issue the order or 
you did not issue the order. 

Secretary Stevens. Well, I ordered the release to the members of 
this committee and to the other Senators and Congressmen who were 
interested. That was my responsibility. 

Senator McCarthy. All right. 

Now, we know that you ordered the release. The question is did 
you order the preparation? Did you order those formal charges 
prepared ? 

Secretary Stevens. Well, I certainly was vitally connected witii it 
from the time I got back from the Far East. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Secretary, someone must have ordered 
them prepared. I am asking you the simple question, was it you ? 

Secretary Stevens. I think it would be a fair assumption it was me. 

Senator McCarthy. Well, it can't be an assumption. It can't be 
an assumption. We can't assume things here. We want to know. If 
you don't remember, tell us. 

Secretary Stevens. I am telling you that I am responsible for the 
fact that we supplied this information to the members of this commit- 
tee and to other Members of the Congress. 

Now, if I was responsible for that, I am certainly responsible for 
having gotten the material up. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Stevens, I am not asking you who in the 
line of command is responsible. I am asking you the simple question : 
Did you order these charges prepared ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes; I would say I did. 

Senator McCarthy. You would say you did. Who did you order to 
prepare them ? 

Secretary Ste^^ns. Well, naturally I talked with Mr. Adams about 
it, I also talked to Mr. Hensel about it, Mr. Brown about it, and others. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you tell Mr. Adams to prepare the 
charges ? 

Secretary Stevens. Well, Mr. Adams had a lot of material that 
was used in the preparation, but he didn't prepare it. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Stevens, there came a time when the so- 
called formal charges were prepared, right? The charges that you 
filed with the committee? At some time they had to be prepared? 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Senator McCarthy. I merely want to know who ordered them pre- 
pared ; did you ? 

Secretary Stevens. Are you talking about the original chronology 
or the ones that were later prepared ? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1317 



Senator McCarthy. I thought I made myself clear. I said the 
charges that were filed with the committee, March 11 they were filed, 
I believe. Is that the correct date, Mr. Jenkins? 

Mr. Jenkins. There are two papers and I am trying to identify 
which is which. 

Senator McCarthy. So you aren't confused, let's take the chronol- 
ogy. Who ordered that prepared? 

Secretary Stevens. That was my responsibility for getting that 
])repared. 

Senator McCarthy. You have told me that 10 times now, Mr. Sec- 
retary. 

Secretary Stevens. Yes. 

Senator McCarthy. I want to know if you issued an order. 

Secretary Ste\t:ns. I didn't issue any written order, but I said I 
wanted it prepared. 

Senator McCarthy. Who did you tell you wanted it prepared? 

Secretary Ste\'ens. I told Mr. Adams and others. 

Senator McCarthy. When did you tell him? 

Secretary Stevens. Some time after my return from the Far East. 

Senator McCarthy. All right. 

Now, do you know that the testimony is that the preparation was 
commenced, according to the testimony of Mr. Adams, long before 
your return from the Far East ? 

Secretary Ste\t:ns. I thought we covered that awhile ago. Senator 
McCarthy, when we said that Mr. Adams, as a competent lawyer, was 
getting together some memoranda, some raw material, in a file on this 
subject, which he later showed to me after I came back. 

Senator McCarthy. Now, Mr. Secretary, I am going to read your 
testimony. You were under oath then also. Page 1949, if counsel will 
get it, page 1949, volume 11. The first question. Do you have that, 
Counsel ? 

The first question (reading) : 

Who decided to prepare it? 

A question by Senator McCarthy. 

Secretary Stevens. Who decided to prepare it? 

Senator McCarthy. Yes. 

Secretary Stevens. I don't know who decided to prepare it. I know that Mr. 
Hen.sel got in touch with me and asked me to see Mr. Brown and discuss these 
matters with him, and I did that. I assume that Mr. Hensel was probably acting 
under orders of the Secretary of Defense. I dor.'t know. 

Now, were you telling the truth then, Mr. Secretary? This is no 
laughing matter. We asked you then who prepared these charges. 
You said then, "I dont know." Now I ask you if you are telling the 
truth, 3'ou grin and smirk and laugh. 

This is too serious to be a laughing matter, Mr. Secretary. The 
question is were you telling the truth when you said, "I don't know 
who decided to prepare it. He Avas probably acting under the orders 
of the Secretary of Defense." 

You say, "I don't know" ? 

Today clo you say that you issued the order? We must find out 
what day you are telling the truth. 

Secretary Stevens. I think that is a bit uncalled for, if I may say 
so, Senator. 



1318 SPECIAL I^T^'ESTIGATION 

Senator McCarthy. All right, let's rephrase it. You tell us today 
that you ordered the charges prepared. On page 1949, the last time 
you appeared you said, "I don't know who decided to prepare it. I 
assume Mr. Hensel was probably acting under orders of the Secretary 
of Defense." 

I left out one sentence which I call counsel's attention to. Which is 
true ? Is it true that, as you say today, you ordered them prepared ; 
or is it true that as you said the last time you were here, "I don't 
know who decided to prepare them." 

Secretary STE\^]srs. I know. Senator McCarthy, I talked with IVIr. 
Wilson about it, I talked with Mr. Hensel about it. I never issued any 
written order to prepare these charges, but I feel the responsibility for 
issuing them to the committee is completely mine. It is a fact that 
Mr. Wilson had knowledge of the situation, certainly Mr. Hensel did 
and certainly I did. 

I am trying, to the best of my ability, to put before this committee 
the facts, and I feel in my heart that the responsibility was completely 
mine, although I did discuss the matter with Mr. Hensel and with the 
Secretary of Defense. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Stevens, we have been here a long time now, 
trying to get an answer to one question. I don't enjoy keeping you 
on the stand indefinitely, but I have to find out, if I can, whether or 
not it is true that you don't know who decided to prepare the order, 
the charges, as you said, or whether, as you say today, you ordered 
them prepared. 

If you keep repeating the responsibility is yours, I know that as 
Secretary of the Army, in the chain of command, the responsibility is 
yours. The preparation of the charges was commenced, we know, 
from Mr. Adams' testimony, before you returned from the Far East. 

Now, if you don't know who ordered them prepared, just simply 
tell us. 

Secretary Stev'ens. No, that was not the preparation of charges. 
That was raw material, memoranda for the file. It had nothing to 
do with charges. 

Senator McCarthy. All right. 

One final, last, attempt. Who made the decision, who issued the 
order, verbal or otherwise, that the formal charges the ones filed on 
March 11, with the committee, to be prepared? Was that you? Do 
you remember who it Avas ? If not, tell us. 

Secretary Stevens. Well, Senator, I can only tell you the best of my 
recollection and ability, and that is that Mr. Wilson — I talked with 
him about this, I talked with Mr. Hensel, I talked with Mr. Brown. 
There was no written order ever issued so far as I am aware in con- 
nection with this matter. Certainly, I never issued any. I believe that 
it was my responsibility, and that undoubtedly I did order them to be 
made up. 

Senator McCarthy. You say undoubtedly, but you don't recall ? 

Secretary Stevens. I am trying very hard to recall, Senator Mc- 
Carthy. And what- 

Senator McCarthy. If you can't recall, just tell me. 

Secretary Stevens. And what I am trying to do is to accept the 
responsibility for those charges. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1319 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Stevens, you cannot cover up anyone 
by accepting responsibility. 

Secretary Stevens. I am not trying to cover anyone up. 

Senator 'McCarthy. If you don't remember 

Secretary Stevens. There isn't any one to cover up, and I am trying 
to give you all the names and all the facts that I can in connection 
with this thing. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you remember whether you issued the order 
that the charges be prepared ? I know that someone had to issue that 
order. 

Secretary Stevens. Senator, if you will just take a little bit of 
background here. \^liat happened is we had these inquiries from 
Senators, members of this committee and otherwise, Senators and Con- 
gressmen, and some kind of an answer to their inquiries had to be pre- 
pared. 

Now, that is what was done in connection with this thing. It was 
an effort to answer the searching inquiries that we had from the Sen- 
ate and the House in regard to Pvt. David Shine, and that is how 
the thing was started. It was started as an answer to inquiries from 
up here. It wasn't started as an issue of charges. 

Senator McCarthy. Let me read to you from your formal charges, 
formal statement, the statement by the Secretary of the Army, Mr. 
Eobert T. Stevens, page 20, how I urged him to go after the Navy 
and the Air Force, and I was guilty of blackmail. I call your atten- 
tion to the fact that these charges have nothing whatsoever to do 
with issues raised by Senator Potter's letter as to whether undue in- 
fluence was used by Senator McCarthy and his staff to obtain preferen- 
tial treatment for Private Schine. 

To further refresh your recollection, I call your attention to your 
testimony on page 

Senator Mundt. The Senator's time has expired, and I suggest you 
wait for the next time, because it will take some time to identify the 
question. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman, in all fairness to both Senator Mc- 
Carthy and the Secretary of the Army, I must state that the Secretary 
of the Army has not given a direct answer to a direct question. 

Now, Mr. Stevens, I do not say that critically, and I say it in all 
kindness. It may be the thought of some of the members of the com- 
mittee that your failure to give a direct answer to many questions 
accounts for the fact that you have been on the witness stand so long. 

I think it is a proper question, and I think that you can answer it 
directly, INIr. Stevens. It isn't a question of whose responsibility it 
was for the preparation of these charges that were released on March 
11. The Senator is entitled to know, and the members of this com- 
mittee are entitled to know, whether or not you directed the prepara- 
tion of that chronological statement of events released on March 11. 

Pursuing the Senator's question further, I call your attention to 
this: 

Secretary Stevens — 

this is on page 1949, and that is the page number you were reading 
from. 
Senator McCarthy. Yes. 



1320 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr. Jenkins. This is your testimony, Mr. Secretary : 

I don't know who decided to prepare it. I Ijnow that Mr. Hensel got in touch 
with me and aslied me to see Mr. Brown and discuss these matters with him, 
and I did that. I assumed that Mr. Hensel was probably acting under orders 
of the Secretary of Defense, and I don't Ijnow. 

Now, Mr. Stevens, as I understand you this morning, you say that 
you directed the preparation of this 34-page chronological statement 
of events ; is that correct ? 

Secretary Stevens. I said that I had responsibility for it, Mr. 
Jenkins. 

Mr. Jenkins. I know, and we are not talking about responsibility. 
You have assumed full responsibiiity. and let us get away from that. 
We have all got responsibilities for certain acts of our subordinates, 
and sometimes they do an act at our direction, and sometimes they 
do it on their own initiative. But we are talking about a 34-page 
document released to the public on March 11. The question now is : 
Did you or not — and I think you can answer this with a "Yes" or 
"No" — did you or not direct or order or suggest the preparation of 
that 34-page chronological statement of events? 

Secretary Stevens. I suggested it. 

Mr. Jenkins. You did suggest it? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And so now, are we to assume that it was done at 
your suggestion ? 

Secretary Stevens. Well, and others, Mr. Jenkins, because as I say, 
Mr. Wilson was thoroughly familiar with this thing, and so was Mr. 
Hensel, and I think that, as I said here on page 1949, Mr. Hensel got 
in touch with me, probably at the suggestion of Mr. Wilson, and that 
Mr. Hensel and I discussed the matter together. 

Mr. Jenkins. Now, I^cr. Secretary, this final question — and I hope 
it is final — you say you suggested the preparation of that 34-page 
document. How do you reconcile that statement that you have just 
made that you suggested it, with your statement on page 1949 of this 
record in which you state that you don't know about that ? 

Secretary Stevens. I have tried to explain this, Mr. Jenkins, to the 
best of my very limited ability. There was no written order about it 
at all. Mr. Wilson was familiar with the thing, and so was Mr. Hen- 
sel, and we discussed it together, and Mr. Seaton knew about it, and it 
was just exactly — as to who, in the final analysis, said what to do, 
it isn't just as clear as I would like to be able to make it. It just isn't. 
But I am prepared to say that I suggested it, and that I think it may 
have been suggested by others, too. 

Mr. Jenkins. I believe that is all I care to ask the Secretary. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair has no questions at this time. Senator 
McClellan? 

Senator McClellan. I have no questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dirksen? 

Senator Dirksen. I have no questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Jackson ? 

Senator Jackson. I have no questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dworshak ? 

Senator Dworshak. I have no questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Symington? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1321 

Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman, first I understand that what 
I meant to say was two principal witnesses, and there have been quite 
a few more, but there were just two 

Senator Mundt. The record shows that 17 or 18 witnesses have testi- 
fied up to date. 

Senator Syiviington. I wasn't talking about the ancillary witnesses, 
but I was talking about the witnesses who have taken most of the 
time. 

Did anybody in the White House ask you to put these orders to- 
gether or tell you to put them together ? 

Secretary Ste\t.ns. No, sir. 

Senator Symington. Did anybody in the Department of Justice ask 
you to put them together, or tell you to put them together I 

Secretary Stem3ns. No, sir. 

Senator Symington. Did anybody in any other executive part of 
the Government ask you to put them together or tell you to put them 
together, except the Pentagon Building ? 

Secretary Stevens. No, sir. 

Senator Syisiington. Then, as I understand your testimony, andl 
am just trying to get ahead with this thing, there were discussions in 
the Pentagon Building with respect to these, in your opinion, im- 
proper actions ; is that correct ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. Or pressures. And at that discussion, prolj- 
ably the Secretary of Defense was there sometimes, and sometimes he 
was not? 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Senator Symington, And probably Mr. Hensel and Mr. Brown 
were there sometimes, and sometimes were not ? 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Senator Symington. And you were there sometimes, and sometimes 
were not? 

Secretary Ste\t;ns. That is right. 

Senator Symington. And Adams was there, John Adams, some- 
times, and sometimes was not, is that it ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. And you discussed it as a matter of an internal 
problem in the Pentagon with all of the people, including your chief, 
the Secretary of Defense, Wilson ; is that right ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. And at a point it was decided that, based on 
the notes that Mr. Adams got up, and based on other information that 
you got up, and based on information that Mr. Hensel got up, and 
Mr. Brown got up, and very possibly ]\lr. Wilson got up, at some point 
it was decided that these charges were to be published ; is that correct ? 

Secretary Ste\-ens. Were to be supplied to those who would ask 
for it. 

Senator Symington. Is there anybody in the Pentagon who will 
not take responsibility for putting these charges out? 

Secretary Ste\t.ns. Who will not take it ? 

Senator Symington. That is correct. 

Secretary Stevens. I don't think so. 



1322 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator Symington. Everybody in authority in the Pentagon be- 
lieved, so far as you know, that they should be put out ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. But you are coming before this committee and 
saying that, as Secretary of the Army, they were put out under your 
authority, or were your responsibility, either way that anybody wants 
to take it at this side of the table ; is that correct ? 

Secretary Ste\'ens. That is correct ? 

Senator Symington. Well, I have no further questions, Mr. Chair- 
man. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dworshak? 

Senator Dw^orshak. I have no questions. 

Mr. Welch. I would only like to point out that Mr. Jenkins was 
sure we could do this in a few minutes, and I told the Secretary he 
would be here a very short time, and I would like to conclude it at 
some reasonable time. 

Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy or Mr. Cohn? 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Cohn. 

Mr. Cohn. Mr. Secretary, I just want to ask you a few questions 
here raised by Senator Symington's questions to you, and I want to 
suggest to you, sir, that some of the answers which you have given 
him are directly contrary to previous sworn testimony you have given 
and previous sworn testimony given by Mr. Adams. 

Now, did you tell Senator Symington a little while ago, sir, that the 
decisions insofar as the Army is concerned, related to this controversy, 
could be made only by the Army or the Department of Defense, and 
not by the White House or the Department of Justice or advisers from 
those two places? 

Secretary Stevens. I don't think that I said that. 

Mr. Cohn. Could we have the record on that? I think that that 
is very important. 

Senator Mundt. Which question ? The one Mr. Symington asked ? 

Mr. Cohn. The question Mr. Symington asked in response to which 
Mr. Stevens said that the decisions were all made by the Department 
of the Army and the Department of Defense and by him, and that 
they were not made at the direction of the Department of Justice or 
representatives from the White House or anyone on the outside. He 
was going into the chain of command. 

Secretary Stevens. What you have just said there I think is quite 
different from what was said previously, and I think it would be a 
good idea to have it read. 

Mr. Cohn. Would you tell us just what you meant, to save time ? 

Secretary Stemsns. I would like to have it read so I can see what 
it was, because my understanding of what you said there the first time 
is different from what you said the second time. Let us have them 
both read. 

Senator Mundt. Are you referring to the questions mucli earlier 
when Senator Symington was talking about the line of command? 

Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir. 

Secretary Stevens. In order to try to expedite it, I will say this, 
the President of the United States can give any order he wants to to 
the Army at any time he wants to. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1323 

Senator Mundt. The reporter advises the Chair that the earlier 
round of questions has been sent down to the typewriting room, so 
I will suggest that Mr. Cohn rephrase his question and start over and 
then perhaps we can proceed without having to go downstairs. 

Mr. Coiix. Certainly. Mr. Stevens, in your statement submitted 
this morning, did you say, "I wish to make it perfectly plain that the 
decisions and acts on the part of the Army concerning the controvery 
presently being heard by the Senate subcommittee were the decisions 
and the acts of the Department of the Army alone" ? 

Secretary Stevens. That is in the statement. Correct. 

Mr. CoHN. Who made the decision that Mr. Adams should call on 
members of the subcommittee on January 21 and January 22, and tell 
them that they should help out getting these subpenas for the loyalty 
board killed and telling them in the alternative about this business 
about myself and Mr. Schine ? Who made that decision ? 

Secretary Stevens. I can't subscribe to all of that language you have 
in there, but I will take a part of it and say that Mr. Adams undoubt- 
edly made the decision himself to go and call on the Senators. 

Mr. CoHN. He made that decision himself. Was that decision made 
by Mr. Adams as a result of suggestions made to him at this meeting 
with White House advisers and Justice Department officials? 

Secretary Stevens. I would suggest that you ask Mr. Adams about 
that. 

Mr. CoHN. Didn't he tell you about that, sir ? 

Secretary Stevens. I was out of the country. 

Mr. CoHN. Does this statement that you make this morning apply 
to Mr. Adams as well as yourself, namely, that the decisions and acts 
were those of the Army and the Army alone ? 

Secretary Stevens. That statement stands; the Department of the 
Army alone. 

Mr. CoHN. That applies to Mr. Adams as well as you, sir? 

Secretary Ste^tns. Sure. 

Mr. CoHN. Wliat puzzles me very much, sir, is that Mr. Adams told 
this subcommittee under oath the other day — I might read it. That 
might be better than my paraphrasing. He described the meeting he 
attended with the Attorney General, Deputy Attorney General, the 
top Presidential assistant, another White House assistant, and the 
U. N. Ambassador. He said : 

To this group I recounted the details about the loyalty board ultimatum and at 
Mr. Rogers' request I described the problem we were having over Private Schine 
and how the two matters seemed to me to be related. 

At this meeting, Governor Adams a.sked me if I had a written record of all 
the incidents with reference to Private Schine which I had discussed with him 
that day and which I have recounted here, and when I replied in the negative, 
he stated he thought I should prepare them. 

Then I call your attention to this, if I may : 

The meeting finally concluded with the decision that I should call on the 
Republican members of the subcommittee, the Democratic members were not 
then members, and point out to them the two problems which I had discussed in 
the Attorney General's office. 

Isn't it a fact, Mr, Stevens, that Mr. Adams has said under oath that 
a decision was made by the two W^ite House advisers, by two Justice 
Department officials, and by the U. N. Ambassador, that certain steps 
should be taken in connection with this controversy ? 



1324 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Secretary Stevens. I think tliat was completely a suggestion, and 
I think Mr. Adams acted completely independently. 

Mr. CoHN. Do you think that his words, "And the meeting finally 
concluded with the decision that I should call on the Republican 
members" 

Secretary Stevens. I think, ]\Ir. Cohn, when you are on the stand 
clay after day for a long time, it is just barely possible, once in a while, 
to use the wrong word. Maybe he used the wrong word there. 

Mr. CoHN. You think he may have used the wrong word. 

Mr. Stevens, do you think you used the wrong word when you 
categorically denied under oath on page 19^9 that you ordered these 
charges put out ? 

Secretary Stevens. I tried to explain to you who was in this thing, 
how it developed and how the decision was finally taken to the best 
of my recollection. 

]\Ir. Cohn. Yes, sir; and I am suggesting, because I know you ap- 
preciate this is a very important matter to us here, that there is 
directly contradictory to testimony which cannot be reconciled and 
wdiich seems to have fallen further apart this morning. Specifically, 
sir, you said, page 1949, "I don't know who decided to prepare it. I 
know that Mr. Hensel got in touch with me and asked me to see Mr. 
Brown." 

Now, did you ask for Mr, Brown or did somebody send JNIr. Brown 
to you, and suggest that you give to Mr. Brown these facts within 
your knowledge ? 

Secretary Stevens. Mr. Hensel got in touch with me about Mr. 
Brown. 

Mr. CoHN. So that was Mr. Hensel's idea and not your idea ? 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Mr. CoHN. You didn't say, "Send Mr. Hensel down, I have ordered 
the release of certain charges or drawing up of certain charges" ? 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. There is nothing abnormal about 
that. They are routine discussions with the General Counsel's Office, 

Mr. CoHN, You said here, "I assume Mr, Hensel was probably act- 
ing under the orders of the Secretary of the Defense, is that right?" 
"I don't know." 

Secretary Ste\t3ns. That is right. 

Mr. CoHN. We will go back to the question of who gave the orders. 
You said there categorically that you did not give the orders, that 
somebody higher up 

Secretary Ste\tens. Mr. Cohn, you don't seem able to understand 
that sometime in an administrative department or an executive branch 
of government, or even in a business, that people have to get together 
and exchange views and come to some conclusion and it very fre- 
quently happens that there is no written order that comes out of that, 
or that no one single person has issued the order. It is a get-together 
of the different points of view. 

I have indicated to you that ]\Ir. Wilson knew this, Mr. Hensel, IMr. 
Brown, Mr. Adams, and myself. I will take the responsibility for the 
decision and have tried to explain to you in the very best way I can, 
as to how some of these executive department decisions are reached. 

Mr. CoHN. I am sure of that, sir, and I am very sorry that this has 
taken so long. But we still don't have the answer to a very crucial 
question that caused this committee to adjourn for a full week. The 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1325 

question is, Who did give the order? You were definite when j^ou 
were here tlie last time. I might read this to you to refresh your 
recollection : 

Did you order them put out? 

That was a question by Senator McCarthy. 

Secretary Stevens. No, sir ; I didn't order them put out. 

Secretary Stevens. We did not put them out, Mr. Cohn, and I have 
explained that at least 25 times. We did not put them out. 

Mr. CoHX. What did you mean by the words "put out" when you 
put them on that basis? 

Secretary Stevens. I explained to you repeatedly that what we did 
was to answer inquiries we had from members of the Senate and the 
House. We didn't put them out. 

Mr. CoHN. Maybe we could do it this way, Mr. Stevens : Could you 
tell us what you meant by "put out"? Let me give this to you, sir: 
This is awfully important to us and I wonder if we could get a direct 
answer. Who decided to prepare it? W^e are getting back to the 
preparation of these charges. "Wlio decided? [Reading:] 

Secretary Stevens. Who decided to prepare it? 

Senator McCarthy. Yes. 

Secretary Stevens. I don't l^now who decided to prepare it. I know that ]\Ir. 
Hensel got in touch with me and asked me to see Mr. Brown and discuss these 
matters with him. 

Hensel sent Brown to j^ou. [Reading :] 

And I did that. I assume Mr. Hensel was probably acting under orders of the 
Secretary of Defense. 

You are saying they weren't your orders, somebody else gave the 
orders. [Reading :] 

I don't know. 

Senator McCarthy. These charges were put out entitled "Army Charges" or 
something to that effect V 

Secretary Stevens. That is where Senator McCarthy was wrong. 
He used the words "put out." They are not my words. 
Mr. Cohn. I am reading your answer : 

I didn't order them put out. 

"Wliat do you think Senator McCarthy meant by "put out" ? 

Secretary Stevens. I didn't order them put out. I meant that in 
answer to inquiries we had from this committee, the Senate and the 
House, they should have answers to their inquiries in regard to the 
matter of Private Schine. I did not put them out. 

Mr. Cohn. What do you think Senator McCarthy meant when he 
said following the questions I read to you, when he said, "Did you 
order them put out?" 

Secretary Stevens. Making them public. 

Mr. Cohn. Is that what you meant ? 

Secretary Stevens. That is exactly what I thought he meant. 

Mr. Cohn. Can you show me any place in the record at this point 
where Senator McCarthy used the words "make them public"? 

Secretary Ste\-ens. I don't know. This is a long record. When 
he used the words "put out," I understood that what he meant was 
that we would give them out to the public, which we did not do. Wliat 



1326 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

we were trying to do was to answer inquiries from the Congress in 
regard to I*rivate Schine. We didn't put anything out. 
^Ir. CoiiN. I see.  

Now, to go on in this for a moment, you said in your opening state- 
ment before this committee, that the issue was raised by Senator Pot- 
ter's letter. Is that true ? Do I quote correctly from page 20 : 

The issue raised from Senator Potter's letter as to whether undue influence was 
used by Senator McCarthy and his staff to obtain preferential treatment 

Secretary Stevens. There had been many inquiries that came to 
us before Senator Potter's letter, many inquiries. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you reply to those inquiries, sir ? 

Secretary Stevens. Yes, we did. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you release the charges ? 

Senator Mundt. Your time has expired. Any questions? 

The Chair has none, and do any of the Senators at my left have any ? 

On my right ? 

Mr. Welch? 

Mr. Cohn may proceed. 

Mr. CoHN. I have just a couple of more questions on this, sir. Am 
I correctly quoting from your opening statement when you said that 
our countercharges have nothing whatsoever to do with the issue 
raised by Senator Potter's letter? Did you say that, sir? 

Secretary Stevens. I will have to look it up 

Yes, that is your blackmail charge, and your charge about going 
after the Navy and the Air Force; that is right; that is what I said 
and I believe it. 

Mr. Cohn. I am talking about the charges you made against us, the 
second part of that paragraph, where you said : 

The issue raised by Senator Potter's letter as to whether undue influence was 
used by Senator McCarthy and his staff to obtain preferential treatment for 
Private Shine. 

You said that, did you not? 

Secretary Stevtens. Yes, sir. 

Mr. CoHN. The issue was raised by Senator Potter's letter ? 

Secretary Stevens. That was one of the letters that was raised, that 
hapi^ened to bring the thing pretty much to a head because this thing 
had been going on for many weeks, and when Senator Potter's letter 
which was directed to the Secretary of Defense came in, it reached 
there at a point when things had sort of reached a climax. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Secretary, when I concluded my last 10- 
minute period, we were on this particular subject, and I pointed 
out to your testimony in which you stated the matter was headed 
up by Senator Potter's appearing all through this, and I think we 
will agree that you were emphasizing the fact that it was Potter's 
letter which caused the release. At the time that you were discuss- 
ing that under oath, did you then know that a member of the execu- 
tive other than someone in the Pentagon had contacted Senator Pot- 
ter and had suggested to him that he write this letter ? 

Secretary Stevens. I did not know that then and I don't know 
it now. 

Senator McCarthy. Have you ever heard that someone from the 
executive who knew about the meeting of the 21st of January, knew 
that the suggestion was made there that the charges be formalized 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1327 

in writing, then <rot in touch with Senator Potter and said, "Won't 
oil write to the Pentagon and ask that the charges be released." Did 
you know that ? 

Secretary Ste\t:ns. The first time I have heard it was this morning. 

Senator McCarthy. You know it now, don't you ? 

Secretary Stevens. I don't know it. 

Senator McCatrhy. You heard Senator Potter say it, and do you 
question his statement ? 

Secretary Stevens. I wasn't clear on the language Senator Potter 
used, and if you will refresh my memory on it but that was the first 
indication that I had of it. 

Senator McCarthy. Well, you know Senator Potter said he did 
get a call from someone in the executive. 

Secretary Ste^tns. I didn't hear all of what Senator Potter said. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you hear it, Mr. Welch, and I wonder if 
you could refresh the Secretary's recollection, and this is rather im- 
portant, and we have a sequence of events here and I would like to 
question him about it. 

Secretary Ste\t;ns. Isn't the important thing, that I never heard 
of it until this morning ? 

Senator McCarthy. No, there are many things you apparently did 
hear of, Mr. Secretary. We are concerned with who instigated the 
charges which resulted in the complete wrecking of this committee's 
normal function, and tied us up in this work for weeks. We have 
your statement to the press to the effect that the decisions were made 
solely by the Army, decisions and acts, and we have Mr. Adam's 
testimony to the effect that the decision to make the charges formal 
and come and see the Senators was arrived at at a Justice Department 
meeting, with White House personnel there. 

Secretary Stevens. I don't agree with that. 

Senator McCarthy. Let me finish, and we now know that the letter 
which you said headed up the matter in effect forced you to finally 
put out the charges, was instigated by someone from the executive, 
with that information could you still want to stand by your statement 
that, let me quote : 

I wish to make it perfectly plain that the decisions and the acts on the part 
of the Army concerning the controversy presently being heard by the Senate sub- 
committee, were the decisions and the acts of the Department of the Army alone. 

Secretary Stevens. I do, and I stand squarely on that. 

Senator McCarthy. And you want to say that no one else had 
anything to do with it ? 

Secretary Stevens. I have explained to you at length the discus- 
sions that I have had with Mr. Wilson and Mr. Hensel and others. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you say that no one except the Depart- 
ment of the Army had anything to do with the making of these de- 
cisions or the acts? 

Secretary Stevens. I explained to you, Senator McCarthy, just how 
this decision which was made in a way that lots of decisions are 
made in the executive branch of the Government, or in the operation 
of a business. That is where different people get together, and dis- 
cuss matters. There was no written order issued. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Stevens, I am getting awfully weary of 
this attempt to get a few simple facts from you. As though we were 



1328 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

pulling teeth. We have spent just a vast amount of time here. We are 
trying to get answers to some simple questions. I have frankly given 
up and I am trying to get you to tell us whether or not you issued the 
order because your testimony is so contradictory I can't reconcile it, 
and now I have another question. The question is this : You made a 
statement this morning under oath, and you say : 

I wish to make it perfectly plain that the decisions and the acts on the part 
of the Army concerning the controversy presently being heard by the Senate 
subcommittee were the decisions and the acts of the Department of the Army 
alone. 

JVow, do yon still stand by that statement? 
Secretary Stevens. I do. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you say that John Adams was not telling 
the truth when he said that the decision and, I will quote his testimony : 

The meeting finally concluded with the decision that I should call on the Re- 
publican members of the investigating subcommittee — the Democrat members 
were not members of the committee — and point out to them that two problems 
which I had discussed with the Attorney General's office — 

and, before you answer that, Mr. Secretary, you understand here is 
your chief legal counsel saying that the decision to bring the Schine- 
Cohn matter to the attention of members of the committee, to bring it 
to them in connection with the attempt to get us to call off the hear- 
ings on the loyalty board, which had been clearing Communists, he 
said that that decision was made in the Justice Department, and with 
White House aides present, and with the Attorney General present 
and the Deputy Attorney General present, and Ambassador to the 
U. N. present. I am sure that any man who can add 2 and 2, Mr. 
Secretary, will agree that that completely contradicts your first state- 
ment that all decisions were the decisions of the Department of the 
Army alone, and I wonder if you want your sworn testimony this 
morning to stand as it is or not. 

Secretary Stevens. I want it to stand, and I explained before. Sena- 
tor McCarthy, I won't call the question, I will call it a speech that you 
just made 

Senator McCarthy. Call it what you may. 

Secretary Stevens. I can't remember all of it, but I do remember 
part of it, which I have covered before, and that was with respect to 
the use of the word by Mr. Adams, something was concluded. And 
I say, again, that when you sit on this witness chair, day after day, 
with the best you can to answer questions, you may occasionally use 
a wrong word, and my guess is that Mr. Adams probably used a 
wrong word, because I am satisfied that his action was an independent 
one. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Stevens, you complain about being on the 
stand day after day, and we gave you a rather long vacation and let 
you take a trip up to Montana and make speeches and you should be 
refreshed now so you can tell us the truth, shouldn't you? 

Secretary Stevens. I resent that remark, I tell the truth, and I 
don't think the chairman ought to allow that kind of a statement to 
be made. 

Senator Mundt. I think the statement was improper; he talked 
about the witness' not telling the truth and I quite agree. It has 
nothing to do with the truth or falsity of the statement. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1329 

Senator McCarthy. Let us see if it was improper or not. He 
couldn't have been telling the truth on both days. If he had a mental 
lapse, he can tell us that. Let us read the testimony of the 2 days. 
1 don't enjoy seeing the Secretary come up here and contradict him- 
self under oath, but contradict himself he did, and I will point 
out the contradiction, and let us see whether you could have been 
telling the truth, Mr. Secretary, on both days. 

If you will bear with me, Mr. Secretary, I have your testimony 
marked, the pertinent parts of it. If you will let me read this to 
you, Mr. Secretary — and I wouldn't go over this again except you 
resented the fact that I told you that you couldn't be telling the truth 
both times. 

Secretary Stevens. I do resent that. 

Senator McCarthy. Now, let us see whether the resentment is 
justified, and if it is a case of a bad memory, you can tell us, and if 
you were too tired at the time ;^ou can tell us that. 

Senator McCarthy (reading) : 

Do you know whether you did or not? It is rather Important, Mr. Secre- 
tary, to IvDOW — 

and I am reading from page 1458 to 1461. 

It is rather important, Mr. Secretary, to know how come on this particular night 
there apparently was conceived the idea for this smear campaign against my 
staff, and I would like to know who originated it and who talked to whom. 

Secretary Stevens. If it was originated then, or any other time, which I very 
much doubt, I have no knowledge of it, and I had nothing to do with it. 

Secretary Stevens. I stick to that. That was a smear you were 
talking about, and I had no part of it. 

Senator McCarthy. You said you had nothing to do with it, ab- 
solutely nothing to do with it. 

Secretary Stevens. You are talking about a "smear," and I had 
nothing to do with a "smear." 

Senator McCarthy. You were saying you had nothing to do with 
this because I used the word "smear." 

Secretary Stevens. Those are the words you used, and it is a power- 
ful word. 

Senator Mundt. The Senator's time has expired, and we will have 
to go around the table. 

Mr. Jenkins? 

Mr. Jenkins. Pass. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Jenkins passes. 

The Senators to my right ? The Senators to my left ? Mr. Welch ? 

Senator McCarthy may continue. May the Chair suggest that we 
have just about 10 minutes left between now and the recess time, and 
hopes that the questions can be asked and the answers obtained in 
that 10 minutes, if possible. 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, this is somewhat out of character for 
Mr. Welch, but I would like to suggest that w^e continue until we do 
conclude with the witness. 

Senator Mundt. I am not sure we can. We will have to quit at 
the end of 10 minutes, because Senators have appointments after the 
10-minute period. 

Senator McCarthy. Could we ask the Chair to ask the official re- 
porter to type up all of the testimony taken this forenoon and get it 



1330 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

to US at the earliest posible moment so we can put into the record 
the specific contradictions on the part of Mr. Stevens, contractions in 
his testimony ? Can I have that available ? 

Senator Mundt. We always receive the morning session before the 
afternoon session begins. 

Senator McCarthy. Thank you. 

Mr. Secretary, did you discuss with Mr. Adams the fact that he had 
consulted with four newsmen on these charges before they were made 
available to any Senators ? 

Mr. Welch. I think that was outside 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Welch is entirely correct. You will remember. Senator, that 
this inquiry is confined to the statement of the Secretary of May 10. 
That is outside of the scope of inquiry. 

Senator McCarthy. May I point out, Mr. Chairman 

Mr. Jenkins. I will remind you further. Senator, that Mr. Stevens 
will appear later as a general witness at which time those questions 
may be properly asked. 

Senator McCarthy. I assume Mr. Jenkins did not get the import 
of the question. My point is I am entitled to find out if those four 
newsmen w^ere responsible — whether their advice was sought. It was 
testified under oath that three of them were enemies of mine, that 
the other paper was a strong opponent 

Mr. Jenkins. That question would be proper. 

Senator Mundt. The Senator may proceed. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Stevens, I would like to ask you now 
whether or not you discussed with Mr. Adams the fact that before 
he made these charges, before they were written up, while they were 
being written up, he discussed the matter with four newsmen. Did 
he discuss that with you ? 

Secretary Stevens. You asked me the other day. Senator, and this 
is repetitious again, but let's go into it, you asked me all about this 
the other clay, and I testified that it is all in the record. If I may, 
I would like to stand on those answers. 

Senator McCarthy. Your testimony the other day was, I think, 
that he had only talked to Alsop, I believe. Since then Mr. Adams 
has testified that he discussed the matter with Homer Bigart, of the 
New York paper 

Secretary Stevens. Well, I didn't 

Senator McCarthy. Let me finish ; with Mr. Murray Marder, with 
Mr. Phil Potter, and he testified also that he took a trip with Mr. Al 
Friendly of the local "Daily Worker." 

My question is, Did you discuss with him why he had these con- 
ferences with individuals, all of whose papers had consistently op- 
posed any exposure of communism, consistently opposed any investi- 
gating committee, hav3 consistently attacked the chairman of this 
committee? Were you curious to know why he sought their advice? 

Secretary Stevens. I don't believe he sought their advice. 

Senator McCarthy. Well, did you discuss the matter with him ? 

Secretary Stevens. I didn't know anything about it until a long time 
afterward, and we covered that in my testimony the other day, Sena- 
tor JNIcCarthy. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1331 

Senator McCarthy. Did you discuss that matter with him, Mr. Sec- 
retary ? 

Secretary Stevens. I know that IMr. Adams would have told me if 
he had souo;ht any advice. I am confident he did not. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you discuss the matter with Mr. Adams ? 

Secretary Ste%^ns. No, I didn't discuss the matter with Mr. Adams 
until a long time afterward, which I covered in my testimony with you 
the other day. 

Senator McCarthy. Then did you discuss it with him a long time 
afterward? 

Secretary Stevens. I mean he told me a long time afterward about 
Mr. Alsop. I testified on that. It is all in here somewhere, Senator. 

Senator McCarthy. Did he tell you about the other three? 

Secretary Stevens. I don't recall that he did, no. One name is the 
only thing I remember. 

Senator McCarthy. Would you say that he was violating his posi- 
tion as your legal counsel if he discussed with four newsmen — strike 
that — whom he has testified he knew were enemies of mine, were con- 
sistently writing against me — do you think he violated his trust on 
going to them for advice on preparing charges ? 

Secretary Stevens. I don't think he went to them for advice, and I 
think we ought to ask him right on this stand. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you ask him whether he got advice ? 

Secretary Stevens. No, I didn't. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you ask him what Mr. Alsop was doing in 
his office examining the files ? 

Secretary Stevens. No, I didn't. 

Senator McCarthy. Have you seen Mr. Alsop's testimony ? 

Secretary Stevens. No, I have not. 

Senator McCarthy. Don't you think that you should see it, Mr. 
Secretary ? 

Secretary Stevens. Perhaps so. Is it available to me ? I haven't 
seen it. 

Senator McCarthy. I assume it is. Mr. Alsop has it. I under- 
stand your testimony to be that you did not discuss with him his con- 
versation with Bigart or anybody else ? 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Senator McCarthy. You said that you made suggestions for the 
preparation of the charges. 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Senator McCarthy. Who did you make the suggestions to ? 

Secretary Stevens. I made them to Mr. Brown, Mr. Adams, to 
mention two. 

Senator McCarthy. Now may I ask you this, Mr. Secretary : If 
suggestions came to Mr. Adams from a conference of White House 
aides, the Attorney General, would you consider them in the nature of 
an order ? 

Secretary Ste\t:ns. I would not. 

Senator McCarthy. Would you consider a suggestion by Sherman 
Adams in the nature of an order ? 

Secretary Stevens. I would not. 



1332 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator IVIcCarthy. Do yon know that Mr. Adams acted upon tliose 
sno;gestions ? 

Secretary Stevens. "VVliicli Mr. Adams are yon talking about, Sena- 
tor? 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. John Adams. 

Secretary Ste\tens. Will you repeat the question ? 

Senator McCarthy. Do you know that INIr. John Adams acted upon 
the suggestion of Mr. Sherman Adams, namely, that the charges be 
put in writing, that he go and visit the Senators ? 

Secretary Stevens. I don't know whether he did or not. I know, 
as I have testified here this morning, that as a good lawyer, he put 
down some memoranda, got his thoughts together into the form of a 
file of notes. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you know that he did not do that as a good 
lawyer until after he had the T^^iite House conference ? 

Secretary Stevens. I didn't hear you. 

Senator McCarthy. I say, you know that, as a good lawyer, he did 
not do that until after the White House conference ? 

Secretary Stevens. There was no White House conference that I 
know anything about. 

Senator McCarthy. I mean after the Justice Department con- 
ference. 

Secretary Stevens. About 2 or 3 days after that, as I understand 
it, he started to put this down. But that was an independent ac- 
tion on his part as a result of a suggestion, probably. 

Senator McCarthy. An independent action as a result of a sug- 
gestion ? 

Secretary Stevens. That is right. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you know that Mr. Kogers called him and 
suggested he see Senator McClellan? 

Secretary Stevens. I learned that later, after I came home from 
the Far East. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you think, then, he went to see ]\Ir. ]\IcClel- 
lan as an independent action immediately ? 

Secretary Stevens. I do. 

Senator McCarthy. In other words, there was no connection be- 
tween the two ? 

Secretary Stevens. I am sure Mr. Rogers would be the first to 
say that he wouldn't order Mr. Adams or me or anyone else over there 
to do anything like that. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Secretary, you know that your legal coun- 
sel followed all the suggestions made at that meeting. You know 
that when Bill Rogers called him up and said, "I will make an appoint- 
ment with Senator McClellan," the appointment was made, Adams 
went to see Senator McClellan. 

Do you think with some millions of American people listening 
to you, you want to, as the Secretary of the Army, say there was no 
connection, that he just had that meeting over there and then made 
all the decisions himself, that it was a mere coincidence that he started 
to prepare the charges which have resulted in these hearings, after the 
meeting? Do you expect anyone with an ounce of brains to believe 
that? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1333 

Secretary Stevens. Senator McCarthy, I have been over and over 
and over on this subject with yon, and my contention is that Mr. 
Adams received certain suggestions, they were not orders, and I am 
sure that nobody that attended those meetings would say that they 
were orders, and he operated independently. 

Senator McCarthy. How many suggestions by Mr. Sherman 
Adams, if any, did you ever ignore ? 

Secretary Si'evens. "Wliat is that? 

Senator McCarthy. Did you ever ignore any suggestions from 
Sherman Adams ? 

Secretary Stevens. I imagine I have. 

Senator McCarthy. Could you name one? 

Senator Mundt. I think that would be an improper question. It 
doesn't deal with the issue at hand. If he had other suggestions and 
other matters and ignored them 

Senator McCarthy. It goes to the credibility of the witness. He 
says that after this conference in which Adams says decisions were 
made, for some reason or other the Secretary says no decisions were 
made, it had nothing to do with the subsequent acts, he in effect says 
a suggestion from the Justice Department would not be considered 
an order, from Sherman Adams would not, I think to test his credibil- 
ity I would like to know of one single order or suggestion from Adams 
which was disregarded. 

Secretary Ste\t;ns. If John Adams had decided he did not want to 
see Senator McClellan, he would not have gone, and nothing would 
have happened. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you ever ignore a suggestion made by Mr. 
Sherman Adams from the White House ? 

Secretary Stevens. I said I think I probably have. 

Senator McCarthy. Could you think of one ? 

Secretary Ste\t:ns. No, I can't think of it, and I question whether it 
would be proper at this point to bring it out in this hearing. 

Mr. CoHN. Now, Mr. Secretary, are you familiar with Mr. Adams' 
testimony, or I might withdraw that and say this : You know that Mr. 
Adams talked with Mr. Joseph Alsop, a columnist who has consistently 
written articles unfavorable to Senator McCarthy and to everybody 
else investigating Communists? You know Mr. Adams showed Mr. 
Alsop this file in this matter, don't you ? You told us that the other 

day- 
Secretary Stevens. I know that he saw Mr. Alsop, and talked to him 

about it. 

Mr. CoHN. He did more than talk with him. 

Secretary Stemjns. I don't know what transpired, I wasn't there. 

Mr. CoHN. You know or you will take Mr. Adams' word for it, won't 
you, sir? 

Secretary Stevens. I would. 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Adams said that he showed Mr, Alsop his entire port- 
folio in the matter. Was that a proper act ? 

Secretary Stevens. If he said so, he undoubtedly did. 

Mr. CoHN. Was that a proper act, sir? 

Secretary Ste\'ens. Was it a proper act ? 



1334 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr. CoHN. Yes, to take Army memoranda and Army files, and hand 
them over to a newsman who was hostile, Army memoranda about a 
congressional committee, and turn them over to a newsman writing ar- 
ticles hostile to that committee ? Was that in your opinion as Secre- 
tary of the Army, a proper act ? 

Secretary Stevens. Well, personally, I wouldn't do anything like 
that, myself. 

Mr. CoHN. You would not? 

Senator Mundt. All of the time has expired for the morning and 
we will recess until 2 p. m. 

(Whereupon, at 12: 30 p. m., a recess was taken nntil 2 p. m., the 
same day.) 



INDEX 



Page 

Adams, John G 1288, 

1291, 1292, 1295-1299, 1301-1304, 1306-1318, 1321-1324, 1327, 1328, 

Adams, Gov. Sherman!.". 1296-1298, 1308-1310, 1323, 1331-1333 

Air Force (United States) 1319, 1326 

Alsop, Mr 1330, 1331 

Alsop, Joseph 1333 

Ambassador to the United Nations 1304, 1323, 1328 

Army (United States) 128S-1290, 

1292, 1295-1298, 1300-1302, 1305, 1307, 1314, 1322, 1323, 1325. 1327, 
1328, 1334. 

"Army Charges" 1305, 1325 

Army files 1334 

Army memorandums 1308 

Assistant Attorney General 1308 

Attorney General (United States) 1304, 

1306, 1307, 1311, 1312, 1323, 1328, 1331 

Attorney General's office 1304, 1306, 1807, 1323, 1328 

Bigart, Homer 1330, 1331 

Brown, Mr 1300, 

1305, 1306, 1313, 1317, 1318, 1320, 1321, 1324, 1325, 1331 

Brownell, Attorney General 1307, 1308, 1310 

Capitol Hill (Hill) 1314 

Carr, Francis P 1296 

Cohn, Roy M 1296, 1299, 1303, 1311, 1315, 1322, 1328 

Communists 1328 

Conference (January 21) 1288,1296 

Congress of the United States 1288, 1301, 1305-1307, 1316, 1326 

Counselor to the Army 1288, 

1291, 1292, 1295-1299, 1301-1304, 1306-1318, 1321-1324, 1327, 1328, 
1330-1333. 

Daily Worker 3301 

Defense Department 1300-1302, 1306, 1313, 1315, 1322 

Democratic members (McCarthy committee) 1311, 1323, 1328 

Democrats 1313 

Department of the Army 1288-1290, 

1292, 1295-1298, 1300-1302, 1305, 1307, 1314, 1322, 1323, 1325, 1327, 
1328 1334. 

Department of Justice— 1 1311, 1321-1323, 1327, 1328. 1332, 13.33 

Deputy Attorney General 1304, 1310, 1312, 1313, 1.323, 1328 

Executive branch of government 1288, 1206, 1307, 1315, 1327 

Executive orders 1288, 1289, 1295-1297, 12299-1301, 1306 

Executive session (May 17) 1289 

Far East 1296, 1305, 1313, 1316-1.318 

Friendly, Al 1330 

General Counsel's office 1301, 1302, 1324 

Hensel, H. Struve 1300, 

1302, 130.5, 1306, 1313, 1318, 1320, 1321, 1324, 1325 

Hill (Capitol Hill) 1314 

House of Representatives 1319, 1325 

Inspector General 1299 

Judiciary Committee (Senate) 1300 

Justice Department 1311, 1321-1323, 1327, 1328, 1332, 1333 

Lodge, Henry Cabot _. . . 1.301,1308,1310 



n INDEX 

Page 

Loyalty Board 1?.12 

Marder, Murray i:j:50 

McCarthy, Senator Joe 1288-1293 

1296, 1299, 1300, 1303-1300, 1311, 1313, 1315-1310, 1322, 1325-1333 

McClellan, Senator 1292, 1311, 1332 

McClellan substitute 1292 

Members of Congress 1301, 1305-1307, 1310 

Navv (United States) 1319, 1326 

New York City 1302, 1330 

New York paper 1330 

Pentagon 1307, 1313, 1321, 1322, 1326, 1327 

Potter, Senator 1301, 1308, 1307, 1309, 1315, 1319, 1326, 1327 

Potter letter 1301, 130G, 1307, 1309, 1319, 1326, 1327 

Potter, Phil 1330 

President of the United States 1288, 1295-1297, 1299-1303, 1322, 1323 

Presidential assistant 1323 

Presidential directives 1288, 1295-1297, 1299-1301 

Presidential Executive orders 1288, 1295-1297, 1299-1301 

President's Executive order (May 17) 1288, 1295-1297, 1299-1301 

Press release (May 19) 1295, 1297 

Rogers, Mr 1306-1308, 1311, 1312, 1323, 1332 

Rogers, Bill 1332 

Schine, G. David 1296-1299, 

1300, 1306, 1308, 1310, 1311, 1315, 1319, 1323, 1326, 1328. 

Seaton, Mr 1306, 1320 

Secretary of the Army 1288, 1291, 1292, 1295-1334 

Secretary of Defense 1301-1303, 1305, 1307, 1317, 1318, 1320, 1321, 1324-1326 

Senate Judiciary Committee 1300 

Senate of the United States 12!;6, 1307, 1313, 1314, 1319, 1325 

Stevens, Robert T 1288, 1291, 1292 

Testimony of 1295-1334 

Symington, Senator 1307 

United Nations 1304, 1314, 1323, 1328 

United Nations Ambassador 1304, 1323, 1328 

United States Air Force 1319, 1326 

United States Army 1288-1290, 1292, 1295- 

1298, 1300-1302, 1305, 1307, 1314, 1322, 1323, 1325, 1327, 1328, 1334. 

United States Assistant Attorney General 1308 

United States Attorney General 1304, 1306, 1307, 1311, 1312, 1323, 1.328, 1331 

United States Congress 1288, 1301, 1305-1307, 1316, 1.326 

United States Department of Justice 1311, 1321-1323, 1327, 1328, 1332, 13.33 

United States Deputy Attorney General 1304, 1310, 1312, 1313, 1323, 1328 

United States House of Representatives 1319, 1325 

United States Navy 1319, 1326 

United States President 1288, 1295-1297, 1299-1303, 1322, 1323 

United States Senate 1296, 1307, 1313, 1314, 1319, 1325 

White House 1302, 1304, 1306, 1314, 1321-1323, 1328, 1331-1333 

Wilson, Secretary 1315, 1318, 1320, 1321, 1324, 1327 

o 



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