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Full text of "Special Senate investigation on charges and countercharges involving: Secretary of the Army Robert T. Stevens, John G. Adams, H. Struve Hensel and Senator Joe McCarthy, Roy M. Cohn, and Francis P. Carr. Hearings before the Special Subcommittee on Investigations of the Committee on Government Operations, United States Senate, Eighty-third Congress, second session, pursuant to S. Res. 189 .."

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Given By 

3 s 

special senate investigation on charges 
and countercharges involving: secre- 
tary of the army robert t. stevens, john 
g. adams, h. struve hensel and senator 
joe McCarthy, roy m. cohn, and 
francis p. carr 







S. Res. 189 

PART 38 

MAY 2.">, 1954 

Printed for the use of the Committee ou Government Operations 


Boston Public Library 
Superintendent of Documents 

SE p 2 8 1954 


JOSEPH R. MCCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman 
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas 


HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts 



Richard J. O'Melia, General Counsel 
Walter L. Reynolds, Clue] Clerk 

Special Subcommittee on Investigations 

KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota, Chairman 


Ray H. Jenkins, Chief Counsel 

Thomas R. Prewitt, Assistant Counsel 

Robert A. Collier, Assistant Counsel 

Solis Hoewitz, As8ista>it Counsel 



Index: i 

Testimony of — 

Blount, Lt. Bruce, United States Army 1415 

Ryan. Maj. Gen. Cornelius Edward. United States Army 1388 



TUESDAY, MAY 25, 1954 

United States Senate. 
Special Subcommittee on Investigations of the 

Committee on Government Operations, 

Washington, D. C. 

The subcommittee met at 10:10 a. m., pursuant to recess, in the 
caucus room of the Senate Office Building, Senator Karl E. Mundt, 
chairman, presiding. 

Present: Senator Karl E. Mundt, Republican, South Dakota ; Sena- 
tor Everett McKinley Dirksen, Republican, Illinois: Senator Charles 
E. Potter, Republican, Michigan ; Senator Henry C. Dworshak, Re- 
publican, Idaho; Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas; 
Senator Henry M. Jackson, Democrat, "Washington; and Senator 
Stuart Symington, Democrat, Missouri. 

Also present : Ray H. Jenkins, chief counsel to the subcommittee. 
Thomas R. Prewitt, assistant, counsel ; and Ruth Y. Watt, chief clerk. 

Principal participants present : Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, a 
United States Senator from the State of Wisconsin: Roy M. Colin, 
chief counsel to the subcommittee; Francis P. Carr, executive director 
of the subcommittee; John G. Adams, Counselor to the Army; Joseph 
X. Welch, special counsel for the Army ; James D. St. Clair, special 
counsel for the Army; and Frederick P. Bryan, counsel to H. Struve 
Hensel, Assistant Secretary of Defense. 

Senator Mundt. The committee will please come to order. 

The Chair will begin the morning session as is his custom by wel- 
coming our guests to the committee room. We are pleased to have 
you here watching a committee of the United States Senate working on 
public business. 

I want to admonish our audience, as I have all previous audiences, 
that we have a standing rule of the committee, however, that there 
are to be no audible manifestations of approval or disapproval of any 
kind or any type at any time, and the officers in the room and the plain- 
clothes men scattered out through the audience have a standing order 
from the committee to escort politely from the committee room im- 
mediately any of our guests violating the rules under which you en- 
tered the room. When you came you agreed to behave like ladies and 
gentlemen and to refrain from all manifestations of approval or dis- 



Our audiences have been magnificent up to this point. When we 
concluded yesterday afternoon, Mr. Tom Prewitt, of Memphis, as- 
sistant counsel of the committee, was interrogating General Ryan of 
Fort Dix, and the interrogation will continue at this time by Mr. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, a point of order, a point of in- 
quiry. As chairman of the Committee on Government Operations, 
we are charged with the responsibility of checking into the unnecessary 
expenditures, and I wish one of the first things counsel would do is 
find out how much money has been spent for these little picture charts 
telling how many times Dave Schine called his "gal" friend. I don't 
see anything in here about shining his shoes. Apparently some- 
body slipped up. 

I had a call from a friend of mine in the Pentagon telling me this 
is the most ridiculous thing they have ever seen done, and the most 
wasteful. I would like to have counsel, if he would, in connection 
with this ask who authorized it. 

I would like to avoid having to ask the general any questions my- 
self. I know General Ryan can answer it. It is a rather fantastic 
and'expensive game somebody is playing here. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair would suggest that is something that 
can be covered by the Committee on Government Operations of which 
the Senator from Wisconsin is chairman. It looks into Government 
expenditures. If he feels there has been a waste of public funds, cer- 
tainly he has the authority as chairman to male a proper investigation 
at the appropriate time. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, just one final remark. I note 
that they have charts en Schine calling his girl friend and other 
things. I wonder if there are any charts on who shined his shoes. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Prewitt ? 


STATES ARMY— Continued 

Mr. Prewitt. General Ryan, did you cause to be made the chart 
reflecting a record of absences and telephone messages at Fort Dix 
concerning Pvt. G. David Schine ? 

General Ryan. This is the first time that I have seen that chart, but 
I understand it was made by the counsel for the Army. 

Mr. Prewitt. Can you identify that chart as being an accurate re- 
flection of passes granted Private Schine while he was at Fort Dix ? 

General Ryan. I haven't had an opportunity to study this in detail, 
but this replica which I have in my hand looks to me to be a reproduc- 
tion of the larger chart, and from a quick observation it looks as though 
it is a true recording of the period during which Private Schine was 
absent from Fort Dix. 

Mr. Prewitt. That chart reflects not only passes or absences, but 
also telephone messages to yourself ? 

General Ryan. It reflects some of the telephone messages that were 

Mr. Prewitt. Will you file that as an exhibit to your testimony. 

Do you also have, General, a chart reflecting typical authorized 
absences of an average trainee undergoing training at Fort Dix? 


General Ryan. I have a chart which has just been handed to me, 
that I have never seen before that indicates the typical authorized 
absences of an average trainee. I know what the typical absences are. 

Mr. Prewitt. "Will you look at the chart and tell us if it accurately 
reflects the typical authorized absences of an average trainee? 

General Ryan. Yes, I should say it did. 

Mr. Prewitt. Will you file that as an exhibit to your testimony? 

General, I would like to call your attention to the events of Novem- 
ber 17, 1953, and I will ask you if you recall seeing Senator McCarthy 
and Secretary Stevens at the McGuire Air Force Base on that date. 

General Ryan. Yes; I do. 

Mr. Prewitt. Was Private Schine in attendance at the base on that 
occasion ? 

General Ryan. Yes ; he was. 

Mr. Prewitt. Will you tell us the circumstances leading up to that 
meeting as briefly as possible ( 

General Ryan. I received a telephone call from one of Secretary 
Steven's aides during the day indicating that the Secretary and the 
Senator would arrive at McGuire Air Force Base which is adjacent 
to Fort Dix at about 5 : 30 in the afternoon, and the Secretary desired 
that arrangements be made for a plan to fly Senator McCarthy to 
Boston where he had a speaking engagement that evening. He indi- 
cated that he didn't plan to spend a very long time at McGuire Air 
Force Base. He also indicated that Private Schine would be present 
for the purpose of conferring with Senator McCarthy. 

Mr. Prewitt. About what time did the plane arrive? 

General Ryan. The plane arrived at approximately 5 : 30, between 
5 : 30 and 5 : 45, 1 should say. 

Mr. Prewitt. Do you recall approximately how long Secretary Ste- 
vens was there present ? 

General Ryan. Secretary Stevens stayed on the ground, I should say, 
between 5 and 10 minutes. 

Mr. Prewitt. Were photographs taken at that time? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. There were several photographs taken. 

Mr. Prewitt. Do you recall the taking of a photograph of Secre- 
tary Stevens, Private Schine, and some other persons? 

General Ryan. I don't recall that particular one. There were four 
or five flashes indicating that pictures were being taken, and that par- 
ticular picture doesn't stand out in my mind, no. 

Mr. Prewitt. State if you remember or know whether or not Secre- 
tary Stevens requested that he be photographed on that occasion. 

General Ryan. When the Secretary left the plane, I reported to him 
and I stayed with him all the time that he was on the ground. And in 
my presence he did not request any photograph with Private Schine. 

Mr. Prewitt. Were you in his presence during the total time? 

General Ryan. Yes/ I stayed with the Secretary all the time that 
he was there. I reported to him just as soon as he got off the plane 
and I wasn't very far from him at any time. 

Mr. Prewitt.* Do you know where Private Schine and Senator 
McCarthy went after the photographing had been concluded? 

General Ryan. No ; I do not. 


Mr. Prewitt. General, you stated yesterday that on December 8 you 
terminated the weekday privileges, pass privileges, of Private Schine. 
Tell us why that was done. 

General Ryan. It is our duty at Fort Dix to see that these soldiers 
are trained for combat. The training is rigorous. It is made tough 
intentionally, and they work hard from early morning until late at 
night, and a man cannot go off the post in the evening until 11 or 12 
o'clock at night, night after night, and still do the work that he is 
supposed to do. I was especially concerned because in Private Schine's 
case, he had been absent from the post 6 of the preceding 7 nights, 
and I felt it was my duty to this young man, to his parents, the men 
that served with him and their parents, to see that Private Schine got 
proper rest, in order that he could carry on this rigorous training that 
we have at Fort Dix, and also to be in complete possession of his 
faculties when he was handling the munitions, rifles, carbines, gre- 
nades, and other articles of war, with which he was being trained. 

I was concerned about the possibility of an accident in which Private 
Schine might be killed, possibly, or some other trainee might be killed, 
and for that reason I summoned Private Schine to my office and told 
him that he would not be permitted to have any more evening passes 
to leave the post, and I explained in detail why I was taking that 

The explanation I gave to him is the same as tH one I gave to you. 
I told him I didn't know who drafted him, but he was in the Army 
and it was my job to train him, and he was going to carry out the rules 
of Fort Dix the same as any other soldier. 

I told him that it wouldn't do any good for him to ask for any more 
evening passes because he wasn't going to get them. I also told him 
to inform the committee staff not to call me because the answer was 
no. And from that date forward, none of the committee staff ever 
called me and asked for an evening pass for Private Schine. 

Mr. Prewitt. General, what effect, if any, did these absences of 
Private Schine have on his training ? 

General Ryan. Private Schine's absences did not interfere with his 
training. He applied himself very well during the training period, 
and his company commander rated him superior when he left the 
post in training. That placed him in the high 20 percent of his 

Mr. Prewitt. Would your answer be the same with respect to the 
telephone calls which Private Schine received while he was at Fort 

General Ryan. Any telephone calls which Private Schine received 
at Fort Dix, which caused him to miss training — the training was 
taken care of by being made up at other times under the supervision 
of his company commander. The company commander when he fin- 
ished felt he had completed the prescribed course satisfactorily, and 
that the telephone calls and absences did not interfere with his training. 

Otherwise, he wouldn't have given him "superior." I have con- 
fidence in his company commander and in his fairness and honesty, 
and I believe that that was in his opinion an honest rating. 

Mr. Prewitt. General, was any disciplinary action of any character 
ever meted out against Private Schine while he was at Fort Dix ? 

General Ryan. Yes; disciplinary action in the form of reprimand 
was made on several occasions by his company commander., 


Mr. Pbewitt. Was there anything unusual about that? 

General Ryan. No, I think that usually a trainee from time to time 
in his 1G weeks of training there does things that he shouldn't, and he 
is reprimanded. But Private Schine was definitely reprimanded on 
several occasions by the company commander for breaches of 

Mr. Pkewitt. General, on November 18 I will ask you if it isn't a 
fact that you reached the conclusion that Private Schine would not 
be given a weekend pass, but that you called Mr. Adams to get clear- 
ance on that fact? 

General Ryax. That is correct, yes. 

Mr. Pkewitt. Were you overruled in your conclusion ? 

General Ryax. May I relate the circumstances in connection with 
that case? 

Mr. Prewitt. Yes, sir. 

General Ryax. Mr. La Venia. a member of the committee staff, called 
me and introduced himself and said that he would like very much to 
have arrangements made to have Private Schine given a pass to work 
on important committee business from after duty on Thursday. That 
was the following day. Mr. LaVenia put his call in on a Wednesday as 
I recall. He wanted Private Schine to be given a pass Thursday after- 
noon after duty until midnight Sunday night. I told Mr. LaVenia 
that I would have to check to see what Private Schine's schedule, train- 
ing schedule was, before I could give him an answer, and I told him 
I would let him know. 

I then called Mr. Adams and told Mr. Adams of this request, and 
indicated that in my opinion the pass should not be granted. And I 
told him that in my opinion a young trainee, starting his training, 
should start right in with the rest of the trainees. 

The first training was important. While it Avas organizational and 
administrative, chiefly, in character, I did feel that the pass should be 

Mr. Adams said "I had better talk to the Secretary about that and 
I wMl call you back." 

So he called me back in about 10 minutes and asked me some fur- 
ther questions with a view toward determining the specific type of 
training that we classify as precycle training. 

I told him that that was getting acquainted with the squad leaders 
and men in the squad, orientation by company commanders, platoon 
sergeants, a little disciplinary drill, how to wear their uniform, how 
to salute, a little marching, marking their clothing where necessary, 
learning to lay their equipment out, learning to make their beds, 
getting the housekeeping details out of the way before the formal 
training started on Monday morning. 

Mr. Adams called me back right after lunch on that day and said 
that he had talked to the Secretary, and the Secretary felt that as long 
as the formal training, that is, the regular 8-week cycle, didn't start 
until the following Monday, he thought that Private Schine .should 
be given a pass until that period. 

I took those as my instructions. The pass was granted. Mr. La 
Venia called back a little bit later in the afternoon and I informed 
him that Private Schine would go on pass. 

400-20°— 54— [.t. .".<< 2 


Mr. Pkewitt. General, did this arrangement concerning Private 
Schine make it extremely difficult for you ? 

General Ryan. No, it didn't make it extremely difficult for me. I 
felt that the Secretary, knowing the importance of all training, pre- 
cycle training as well as any other, the importance of the work of this 
committee, was in a better position to judge whether the man should 
go or not than I was. 

When those instructions were received, I accepted them whole- 
heartedly and didn't raise any question about it at all. As I said, 
the duties that this man would have performed during that period 
were organizational and administration in character. He made that 
training up, and in my opinion it didn't affect his training. 

My basic percept is that I don't believe any man should ever be 
excused from any training for a minute. It is too serious to let 
them go at any time at all. 

Mr. Peewitt. General", let me ask you this: In the light of the 
orders which you received from Secretary Stevens and Mr. Adams, 
bearing in mind your knowledge of the woi>k of the McCarthy com- 
mittee, did you consider these numerous requests for passes on behalf 
of Private Schine to be improper attempts to gain preferential treat- 
ment ? 

General Ryan. Absolutely not. I felt definitely that Mr. Stevens 
wanted to cooperate with this committee, that there was certain un- 
finished business that this young man could assist in cleaning up, and 
I was wholeheartedly in accord with everything that the Secretary 

Mr. Prewitt. Back to this K. P. incident on January 10, 1 will ask 
you if it isn't a fact that Private Schine was relieved from that duty 
because of an administrative order in your command and not because 
of any action on the part of the McCarthy committee? 

General Ryan. That is correct. 

Mr. Prewitt. That is all I have. 

Senator Mundt. Thank you, Mr. Prewitt. 

I have just one or two questions. 

You stated, General Ryan, that at the end of his 8-week training, 
Private Schine secured a rating by his company commander of 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Could you give us the scale of ratings which pre- 
vailed at Fort Dix so we can determine if that is the top level or 
the second top level or middle-class level, or Avhat it is ? 

General Ryan. That was the top level. It placed him in the upper 
20 percent of his group. The next would be "excellent," then "satis- 
factory," then "unsatisfactory." 

Senator Mundt. "Superior" is the top level that a young man can 
attain at the end of 8 weeks ? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. I might add that he had one more rating. 
He had a character rating of "fair," which is very low, the top 
rating being "excellent," "very good," "good," "fair," "poor," and 
"unknown." The company commander did give him a fair rating 
in character. Those are the two ratings that he received. 

Senator Mundt. Would it be correct to say that in your opinion 
Private Schine did not receive any preferential treatment at Fort 


Dix other than the fact that he received these 12 extra passes which 
the normal trainee would not have received? 

General Ryan. My answer to that is, "Yes," Senator, and I would 
also like to add that the term "preferential treatment" to me is a 
very distasteful term. It is not democratic and it is un-American, 
and it is not the policy of the Department of the Army and not the 
policy at Fort Dix. Except for these passes, Private Schine was 
given no special treatment, shown no favors, and I have not been 
able to find out anything that was done for this young man that wasn't 
done for every other trainee. 

Senator Mundt. I might add that you look to me like the sort of 
fellow who would be pretty hard to get any preferential treatment 
under. I think that is exactlv right. You are to be commended for 

I have just one other question. You answered a question yester- 
day which I was not quite sure I got the answer to because your voice 
dropped near the end of it. You stated that you did not go beyond 
the committee requests to determine whether they were legitimate or 
not or whether these passes were legitimately used, that your in- 
spector general had revealed some skepticism in his mind and had 
made some study and some report. I did not get your answer as to 
what the results of his report were. 

General Ryan. The members of the staff of this committee in my 
opinion were representing a committee of the United States Senate. 
To my mind, they were men of stature and they held positions of 
trust. I did not question for a second that if they asked for a man 
to work on committee business that he would be used for any other 
purpose. There appeared in the New York press after Private 
Schine left Fort Dix, allegations of preferential treatment. My in- 
spector general was immediately put to the job of trying to run down 
these allegations. During his activities, he did try to find out any 
way that he could by asking other trainees, people at Fort Dix, 
whether or not they knew what Private Schine was doing when 
he was off duty. We didn't uncover any evidence indicating that 
he wasn't doing committee work. 

I don't know what he was doing, whether he was doing committee 
work or not. The only thing I know is that he got his passes for 
that purpose. What he did when he left the post I have never had 
any information indicating what he did. 

Senator Mundt. The only thing I am trying to put on down — we 
spent one afternoon here in a lot of pleasant colloquy about some 
alleged inspector's report dealing with the shining of shoes and walk- 
ing beside a jeep and riding in a truck. I take it then that what 
was being referred to were newspaper reports in that colloquy rather 
than the inspector general's report ? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. The newspapers reported that he stood 
by his bunk talking to his company commander, and there is no 
regulation against that. A newspaperman said he went to the post 
exchange and had a steak dinner and came back and bragged about 
it. If he had money to pay for the steak, I see no objection to 
that. They said he rode in the cab of a truck. The cab of a truck 
is transportation as far as we are concerned, and if it is empty 
and a trainee is fast enough to get in there, it is all right. There 


were many other allegations of a similar nature. There were also 
some allegations that were relatively serious, that Private Schine had 
missed bed check, and that Private Schine had made certain state- 
ments in connection with his purpose at Fort Dix which took a great 
deal of time and effort, and our inspector general's report has now 
consumed over 500 pages and over 124 witnesses have been interro- 
gated, and we are trying to get at the bottom of all of these allega- 
tions that appeared in the New York press on January 29, the New 
York Post. 

Senator Mundt. Thank you, sir. 

Senator McClellan. 

Senator McClellan. General, you took the position that it was 
not your responsibility to determine whether he was really needed 
for committee work ? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. It was not your responsibility to determine 
that, was it ? 

General Ryan. No, sir, it wasn't. 

Senator McClellan. That responsibility, if a request was made 
for leaves and so forth for that purpose, then that responsibility 
must be taken by those who made the request % 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. My feeling was that it was the respon- 
sibility of the committee, not even the committee staff. Things that 
I thought were being done were being done for this committee and 
certainly not for making it easy for Private Schine. 

Senator McClellan. Do you know whether it was done at the re- 
quest of the committee or simply at the request of the committee 

General Ryan. The only requests I had, Senator, were from the 
committee staff. 

Senator McClellan. You never had a request, a formal request, 
from the committee, did you ? 

General Ryan. No, sir, I had no contact with any member of the 
committee except that I met Senator McCarthy once when he 

Senator McClellan. Senator McCarthy is the Senator you re- 
ferred to as the Senator who visited Private Schine ? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. No other member of the committee visited 
him ? 

General Ryan. No, sir. 

Senator McClellan. Did you ever have a request from any other 
member of the committee or an official request from the committee 
itself, other than a staff member, to orally request these — you say 
you do not want to call them preferences, let's just call them passes, 
and so forth ? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir; the only requests I received were from 
the committee staff. 

Senator MsClellan. You do not have any way of knowing, you 
say, whether he actually performed committee work while he was 
off duty? 

General Ryan. No, sir, I do not. 

Senator McClellan. Did your inspector general, whoever made 
the inspection for you did he inquire into that ? 


General Ryan. He did, yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. Do you have that report? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir, I do. 

Senator McClellan. Is it available for this committee? 

General Ryan. It has already been made available to the com- 
mittee, yes, sir. All the testimony taken in this report is now in the 
hands of the committee. 

Senator McClellan. It has been filed with the committee? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. Now, you say that this term "preferential 
treatment" is very distasteful? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. And the only way to determine whether he 
actually received preferential treatment or not is to know what he 
did while he was off duty? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir, I should say so. 

Senator McClellan. And if he was off duty, and during that 
period he was off duty by reason of representations made to you that 
he was needed for committee service, if he was not performing com- 
mittee service when he was off duty, then that would constitute an 
imposition upon you, would it not, and other authorities of the Army? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. And if it did constitute an imposition on you 
in that his services were actually not needed by the committee, then 
he did receive preferential treatment, did he not? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. Are you satisfied, have you any way of know- 
ing, do you know now and can you state to this committee, whether 
he actually performed needed committee services while he was on 
these passes ? 

General Ryan. I have no information regarding- what he did out- 
pide of Fort Dix ; no, sir. 

Senator McClellan. So we will have to get that information from 
some other source ? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. If you had known that he was not perform- 
ing committee duties, would you have granted the passes? 

General Ryan. I would have immediately communicated with 
Secretary Stevens and apprised him of that fact, and informed him 
that I was stopping the passes. 

Senator McClellan. The truth is, General, you acted upon the in- 
structions of Secretary Stevens all the way through in this matter, 
did you not? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. The responsibility, however, was mine. 
I am responsible as the commanding general of Fort Dix for every- 
thing that goes on within the reservation. 

Senator McClellan. But is it not true that it was the Secretary 
of the Army who first contacted you or contacted you through his 
counsel, Mr. Adams, to apprise you of the arrangements that had 
been made for Private Schine to have passes that would not interfere 
with his training '. 

General Ryan. Yes, sir, it was. 

Senator McClellan. So this whole idea was initiated by higher 
authority than you, by the Secretary of the Army, is that not true? 


General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. And you undertook, simply as commanding 
general, under whom Private Sehine was serving in your command, 
you simply undertook to cooperate with the Secretary of the Army in 
whatever arrangements or whatever agreement he had with the com- 
mittee or members of the staff of the committee with respect to making 
Private Sehine available for committee services? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. I believe you have explained why you stopped 
the passes. at one time? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. I believe that is all, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dirksen is temporarily away from the 
committee table. 

Senator Jackson, you have 10 mintes. 

Senator Jackson. General, you made reference to some statement 
that Mr. Colin had made to Lieutenant Blount. 

General Ryan. Lieutenant Blount, yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson. Is he the company commander or your aide ? 

General Ryan. No, sir, he is my aide. 

Senator Jackson. And how did that come about? 

General Ryan. Private Sehine was detailed for kitchen police on 
January 10 and on January 9, Mr. Cohn called up and talked to 
Lieutenant Blount and said that some people at Fort Dix had been 
very cooperative, but he felt that Colonel Ringler and Lieutenant 
Miller had made it very difficult for Private Sehine. 

Senator Jackson. Lieutenant Miller being the company commander? 

General Ryan. Lieutenant Miller was the company commander; 
yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson. A first lieutenant? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. And he had a long memory and he wasn't 
going to forget their names. Lieutenant Blount indicated that he 
seemed excited, that he was upset, and he was very caustic in his re- 

Senator Jackson. Did Lieutenant Blount report that to you ? 

General Ryan. He reported that to me on the morning of the 11th 
of January, 2 days later. That telephone conversation took place on 
a Saturday afternoon, and he reported it to me on a Monday morning. 

Senator Jackson. General, do you have any idea as to the number 
of telephone calls that were made by the committee staff to Fort Dix 
in behalf of Private Sehine for passes for 

General Ryan. There was an exceptionally large number of tele- 
phone calls, sir, a very, very large; I don't know the exact number. 
But the company commander has indicated to me that it averaged 
between 1 and 2' a day. 

Senator Jackson. All the time that 

General Ryan. There was one point that I might make clear. The 
telephone calls coming to my headquarters that were received by either 
me or my staff amounted to a total of 29. 

Senator Jackson. That came to your headquarters ? 

General Ryan. I had 3 telephone calls, my chief of staff had 1 tele- 
phone call, and my aide had 25 that we have recorded. 

Senator Jackson. Were these calls all received by you or your staff, 
or at your home, during the day? Were any of them at night? 


General Ryan. I don't retail any telephone calls coming through at 
night. The ones that I received were in my office in the daytime. 
Senator Jackson. I see. 

Now, on the calls that you received from the staff, from the staff 
members, they were all political calls? I mean there wasn't any sug- 
gestion that you should do this or you shouldn't do this, or what was 
the nature? 

General .Ryan. The only calls that I received were from Mr. 
LaVenia, who was very polite, and friendly, and he was circumspect 
in every way as far as I was able to determine. 

Senator Jackson. And he was the only one who communicated with 
3'ou ? 

General Ryan. He was the only one on the staff with whom I have 
ever had any telephone conversations. 

Senator Jackson. After December 8, I believe you testified, that 
the evening passes were stopped ? 
General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson. How many evening passes did Private Schine 
receive ? 

General Ryan. Private Schine had four evening passes to work on 
committee business, the first, third, fourth, and the seventh. There 
were telephone calls received in each instance that he was required 
to either go to Trenton or New York. On the first and the third and 
the seventh they were evening passes, either to taps or midnight. I 
think there was 1 to midnight and 2 until 11 o'clock. On the fourth, 
the request was for an all-night pass, to remain out until reveille. That 
was on a Friday night and he was authorized to be absent until 
reveille the following morning, which is 5 : 50. 

The other evening passes he received was on the 17th of November, 
when Senator McCarthy came to McGuire Air Force Base in order to 
confer with Private Schine. And then, of course, the other pass that 
was granted was on Thanksgiving Day, which of course was an even- 
ing pass, the night before Thanksgiving, which was requested by the 
committee for the express purpose of spending Thanksgiving Day 
working on committee business. 

Senator Jackson. As I recall, you stated that prior to December 9 
he had passes 6 out of the 7 nights? 
General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson. I assume that included a weekend pass ? 
General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson. And which made the 6 out of 7 ? 
General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson. But when the passes were given^ just for the 
evening, he did go off the post. Did he do any committee work on 
the post ? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. There were 11 visits by members of the 
staff. At the time I talked with Private Schine on the 8th, I explained 
to him that I wanted to cooperate in every way to help out, and I asked 
him at that time whether his business wasn't finished. It had been 
about a month since I talked to Mr. Cohn and I got the impression 
that this was a limited proposal, and this unfinished business would be 
finished some time. He said, "No, I hare more to do now than I ever 

Senator Jackson. Who said this? 


General Kyan. Private Schine. He said "Things are coming up 
all the time." 

I said I would be very happy to provide facilities on the post. If 
any members of the staff desired to come and confer with him on com- 
mittee business, I would make available a conference room and do any- 
thing we could to help them. 

So there were 11 visits by members of the staff to visit Private Schine 
for the purpose of conducting committee business. 

I might differentiate there, there were 7 actual visits by members 
of the staff to perform committee business. Mr. Cohn came down on 
the afternoon of the 19th to pick him up when he got a pass. He came 
down again the day before Thanksgiving to pick him up to take him 
on pass. Mr. Carr arrived twice, a member of the staff — once on No- 
vember 11 and the other on November 17. I presume that they 

But I wanted to differentiate between the specific visits for the pur- 
pose of conferring in the evening, and these visits by Mr. Cohn to pick 
Private Schine up and the visits by Mr. Carr on the 11th and the 17th. 

Senator Jackson. General, did they make use of the conference 
room as you suggested ? 

General Ryan. They made use of the conference room one time. 

Senator Jackson. One time ? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson. Other than that, no use was made of it? 

General Ryan. Not that I know of. 

Senator Jackson. That is all. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Potter, you have 10 minutes. 

Senator Potter. General Ryan, has the IG investigation been con- 
cluded ? 

General Ryan. No, sir, it hasn't. All of the testimony is in, and I 
have it, but I have not as yet taken final action on the report. 

Senator Potter. What is the nature of an IG report ? Is the infor- 
mation evaluated ? 

General Ryan. The IG report is a report which is made for the 
commander. In other words, there were certain allegations of ir- 
regularities on my post which I called upon my IG to find out about, 
to report to me, in order to let me decide what action needed to be 
taken, if any. He is my private, confidential investigator. 

Senator Potter. Could I ask this, General Ryan : Was the report in 
the nature of reporting results of an interview, and then did the IG 
endeavor to evaluate that report? Or was it like a raw file from 
an FBI report, for example ? 

General Rtan. The Inspector General submits conclusions and rec- 
ommendations ; yes, sir. I make my own decisions. 

Senator Potter. General, who was the Inspector General who con- 
ducted the investigation ? 

General Ryan. Colonel Fogarty. 

Senator Potter. Is he on your staff ? 

General Ryan. He is on my staff; yes, sir. He is my Inspector 

Senator Potter. You stated that a complete investigation has not 
been concluded ? 

General Ryan. No, sir. All testimony is in, and is in the hands of 
the committee. 


Senator Potter. Is that investigation going on at the present time? 

General Ryan. No, sir, the investigation, as far as the Inspector 
General has been able to proceed, has been completed, but I have not 
as yet taken final action. 

Senator Potter. General Ryan, from your testimony, you state 
that Private Schine did not receive preferential treatment at Fort 
Dix, is that correct ? 

General Ryan. I think, Senator, that depends upon the definition 
of "preferential treatment,'' and my definition of "preferential treat- 
ment" is that a man has the red carpet rolled out for him, that it is 
made easy for him, that he is coddled, is shown favors. In that respect 
I should say "no." If granting Private Schine passes to work on 
committee business was preferential treatment, he certainly got 
preferential treatment. 

Senator Potter. The unusual number of passes that Private Schine 
received, as far as you were concerned did not constitute preferential 
treatment ? 

General Ryan. No, sir, I did not look upon that as preferential 

Senator Potter. Did Private Schine receive the entire training 
course that any other trainee would receive? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. His passes did not interfere with his 
training. He completed the prescribed course and, as I said, he was 
rated "superior" by his company commander. 

Senator Potter. Before Private Schine was assigned to your com- 
mand, had you received word from the Secretary or the Secretary's 
office that Private Schine would soon be in your charge? 

General Ryan. The first time that I heard about Private Schine was 
on November 3, when the Secretary visited Fort Dix. I don't remem- 
ber ever having heard about Private Schine before then. And the 
Secretary, in presenting the problem to me, was very objective. He 
stated the facts. He said he wanted to cooperate with the committee. 

Senator Potter. He instructed you that Private Schine had certain 
unfinished business with the committee, and it would necessitate his 
taking time off from time to time to take care of that work, is that 
correct ? 

General Ryan. He indicated that the committee had requested that 
Private Schine be made available during his off-duty period at certain 
times in order to complete certain committee work, and that he wanted 
to cooperate with the committee, and that he felt that the only time 
that Private Schine could be made available possibly would be on 
weekends. He indicated that that was up to me. He said, "Provided 
it is satisfactory to you." 

Senator Potter. Then you take responsibility for honoring the re- 
quests of the members of the committee's staff for the number of passes 
that Private Schine received? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Senator Potter. I have no further questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Symington ? 

Senator Symington. General Ryan, when did you join the Army ? 

< General Ryan. I joined the Army May 12, 1017. 

Senator Symington. May 12, 1017? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

46620°— 54— pt. 38 3 


Senator Symington". How did you join it ? 

General Ryan. I entered the training camp at Plattsburg, and I was 
commissioned a second lieutenant August 15, 1917. 

Senator Symington. What branch of the service ? 

General Ryan. Infantry. 

Senator Symington. What was your experience in World War I ? 

General Ryan. I was in France as a platoon leader of the 40th In- 

Senator Symington. What was your experience in World War II ? 

General Ryan. In World War II, I was on General Bradley's staff 
in the 12th Army Group, G-5. 

Senator Symington. You have been in the Army a long time, have 
you not ? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. What do you think of the United States Army ? 

General Ryan. Senator, we have the best equipped army in the 
world. We have the best trained army that this country has ever had. 
And I think that this army is well led. We have in the field at the 
present time two of the finest field armies that have ever represented 
the United States, the 8th Army in Korea and the 7th Army in Europe. 
They are first-class battle units. 

As far as the United States Army is concerned, Ave feel that we are 
ready for anything. 

Senator Symington. My colleagues have asked most of the ques- 
tions that I wanted to ask, but I would just like to confirm in my opin- 
ion everything that you have said about our army. 

About 8 years ago I heard Mr. Churchill say that the most amazing 
thing in World War II was the fact that within a short period of 
years the hard core of the American Regular Army could develop 
into the greatest fighting force that the world has ever known. You 
are a member of that hard core. I think it is a great thing for the mil- 
lions of people in this country who have watched, as I have, your 
demeanor when you have been on the stand. I believe there are mil- 
lions of Americans, mothers and fathers, who would be proud to have 
a man like you training their sons. When you leave the Army — and 
I hope that is a long time from now — in my opinion you will take the 
respect of the people of this country as a result of your testimony in 
the past 2 days. 

General Ryan. Thank you, Senator. 

Senator Mttndt. Is that all, Senator Symington ? 

Senator Symington. That is all. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dworshak ? 

Senator Dworshak. A few questions. 

General Ryan, what is the normal length of the training course 
for trainees at Camp Dix? 

General Ryan. Sixteen weeks. 

Senator Dworshak. Private Schine was there only 8 weeks? 

General Ryan. Eight weeks ; yes, sir. 

Senator Dworshak. Then what happened to him? 

General Ryan. Then Private Schine was ordered to Camp Gordon, 
Ga., to attend the Provost Marshal's School, to take military police 

Senator Dworshak. Was there anything peculiar or exceptional in 
that assignment \ 


General Ryan. No, sir: there wasn't. Private Schine was handled 
the same as any other trainee that we receive. Our classification as- 
signment in the United States Army is the finest system that the 
human mind has been able to devise as far as the military mind is 

Senator Dworshak. What I was trying to ascertain, General, is 
this : It was the normal procedure at Camp Dix to have trainees spend 
half their course, 8 weeks, there in basic training, and then to be trans- 
ferred for some specialized training in other installations. 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. I will be very glad to tell you how Private 
Schine happened to get down to Camp Gordon, Senator. 

Senator Dworshak. Well, I was not particularly interested ex- 
cept I wanted to know what the normal procedure was, and I am 
satisfied that trainees usually spent 8 weeks there and if they had 
peculiar qualifications for specialized service they were then trans- 
ferred elsewhere. 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Senator Dworshak. That w T as the normal procedure followed? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. Private Schine had the special qualifica- 
tions and he was transferred to Camp Gordon. He was reported to 
the Department of the Army not by name. The Department of the 
Armv didn't know who Private Schine was. He was reported as an 
MOS-1446. That is a military occupation specialty. They didn't 
know if he was Private Schine or Private Brown or who he was. 

Senator Dworshak. What percentage of trainees do you keep at 
Fort Dix for 16 weeks? 

General Ryan. We keep about 60 percent that come back for ad- 
vanced infantry training. The other 40 go to various specialty 

Senator Dworshak. That is all. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch? 

Mr. Welch. Mr. St. Clair has some questions. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. St. Clair, associated with Mr. Welch. 

Mr. St. Clair. Mister — strike that, General 

General Ryan. That makes me feel good, because when I first came 
into the Army in 1917, they called lieutenants mister. It would be 
wonderful to be back there again. 

Mr. St. Clair. I would hate to tell you, General, how much you 
outrank me. Returning now to November 18, General, that was the 
occasion that you called Mr. Adams with respect to a pass that was 
requested by, I believe, Mr. La Venia, is that correct? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. St. Clair. That pass was requested, was it not, for committee 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. St. Clair. And that was at a time when Private Schine was 
scheduled for so-called precycle training, is that right? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. St. Clair. And, I believe, you testified that you called Mr. 
Adams about that, and that as a result of that call you were requested 
to grant the pass, is that right? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 


Mr. St. Clair. Now. on December 8, General, you had Private 
Schine before you with reference to these week-night passes, is that 
right ? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. St. Clair. And on that occasion, 1 believe you testified that he 
informed you that he hadn't at all finished his work, that new things 
were coming up all the time? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. St. Clair. With reference to your action on that day, General, 
in canceling the week-night passes, did you call Mr. Adams on that 
occasion ? 

Genera] Ryan. I called Mr. Adams and told him that I expected 
to cancel these week-night passes. 

Mr. St. Clair. And would you tell us, General, what Mr. Adams' 
reply was? 

General Ryan. Mr. Adams replied that if I thought that was the 
proper thing to do, it was all right. 

Mr. St. Clair. Did Mr. Adams even refer that to the Secretary or 
did he answer that right over the phone with you ? 

General Ryan. He answered that right over the phone. 

Mr. St. Clair. And you never received any countermand of that 
order, did you? 

General Ryan. No, sir. 

Mr. St. Clair. Now, General, do you know of your own knowledge 
what Mr. Colin was upset about when he called Lieutenant Blount on 
the 9th of December? 

General Ryan. 1 don't know of my own knowledge. The only 
thing that I can repeat, of course, is what Lieutenant Blount reported 
to me. He said that the Army had reneged. As far as I was con- 
cerned I didn't renege on anything. 

Mr. St. Clair. Did Lieutenant Blount report to you what Mr. Cohn 
thought the Army had reneged on ? 

General Ryan. No, sir, he didn't. 

Mr. St. Clair. Did you get the impression that Mr. Cohn was 
being jocular, or that he was extremely upset? 

General Ryan. I got the impression that Mr. Cohn was extremely 
upset. This telephone conversation took place between my aide, who 
is a young lieutenant, and Mr. Cohn. It didn't come to me direct. 
My aide didn't report this to me for 2 days. So that under those cir- 
cumstances, I really didn't take it too seriously. I thought that Mr. 
Cohn was upset and that he got excited and probably said a lot of 
things that he shouldn't have said, but I didn't — he didn't frighten 
me any. 

Mr. St. Clair. 1 think in all fairness to your aide, do you think he 
frightened Lieutenant Blount any? 

General Ryan. No, sir, I don't think he did. 

Mr. St. Clair. Now, General, you say, and I think correctly, that 
these passes did not interfere with the formal training of Private 
Schine. Is that right? 

General Ryan. That is what the company commander reported to 
me, yes. 

Mr. St. Clair. And you are satisfied with that decision? 

General Ryan. I have full confidence in the company commander's 
report, yes. 


Mr. St. Clair. He received, did lie not, a rating of superior? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. St. Clair. Could you tell us for what categories that rating of 
superior covers? I mean, what is rated superior about Private 

General Ryan. That is his efficiency rating. "When he left the com- 
pany, the company commander had to give him two ratings, an effi- 
ciency rating and a character rating. His efficiency rating was supe- 
rior. That was a general overall rating with regard to the way he 
applied himself to his training and the results that were obtained in 
his training. 

Mr. St. Clair. He also received a rating of fair for character, is 
that right? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. St. Clair. Could you elaborate on what is meant by character, 

General Ryan. A man's character in the Army is very important, 
and it is one of the most important things that a company com- 
mander does. It is one of his most important duties. Looking back 
upon my service as a company commander, I thought hard and fast 
whenever I gave a man his character. Private Schine was given char- 
acter fair by Lieutenant Miller, in whom I have complete confidence, 
and I don't think that Lieutenant Miller, who is now Captain Miller, 
gave this rating lightly. I am sure that he thought about it for a long 
time as he would before he gave any man a fair character. Lieutenant 
Miller will testify here, and I am sure that he will be able to tell you 
why he gave him a fair character. When a man is in the Army and 
you are the company commander, you see him all day and every day, 
and you get to know that man. There are thousands of things that 
are involved and that you take into consideration before you put 
that character down. To pinpoint anything in particular, I think 
would be a mistake. 

Mr. St. Clair. I don't mean to pinpoint anything, General. I just 
would ask you this question : You as the commanding general at Fort 
Dix have every confidence in the capabilities of now Captain Miller 
and would back up his decisions as to the character rating, would you 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. St. Clair. Now, one or two more questions. General : 

In the evenings at Fort Dix, sometimes there is a little bit of in- 
formal training going on, is there not? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. St. Clair. I think I have heard the words "GI parties are held 
from time to time." 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. St. Clair. Could you tell us what is meant by that? 

General Ryan. A GI party is a barracks cleanup party and that is 
performed under the supervision of the platoon sergeant. Each com- 
pany is divided into four platoons, with about 65 men in each platoon. 
Each platoon has a barracks by itself, and on Thursday nights, usu- 
ally, the platoon sergeant gets all the men in the barracks together 
and they clean the barracks. They clean the walls, wash the windows, 
scrub the walls down, clean the latrine, and put the barracks in first- 
class shape. 


Mr. St. Clair. And is there other informal training that goes on 
in the evenings, in the other evenings during the week sometimes? 

General Ryan. There is other informal training, such as weapons 
cleaning. That is run on a regimental roster. The companies at 
various times are ordered to send certain men to the weapons cleaning 
house in order that the crew served weapons may be cleaned by a 
team of men. 

Mr. St Clair. In general at Fort Dix yon don't have your schedule 
so arranged that these men are idle after 5 o'clock at night, they have 
things to do, do they not? 

General Ryan. Many of them go to the movies, they watch tele- 
vision, they listen to the radio, they write letters home, we have five 
service clubs that are going every night with dances. On the other 
hand, many times they have official duties to perform in preparing 
their equipment and themselves for duties on the following day. But 
a good soldier, after a little while, he gets himself ready for the 
following day in rather fast fashion. It doesn't take him long to 
clean his rifle, get his equipment laid out, get himself cleaned up and 
he is off to the movies some place. 

Mr. St. Clair. Of course, if Private Schine had a pass on a night 
that there was a GI party, he wouldn't be partaking in the festivities, 
w 7 ould he. 

General Ryan. No, sir, he would not. 

Mr. St. Clair. Thank you. That is all. 

Senator Mundt. Have you concluded, Mr. St. Clair? 

Mr. St. Clair. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That is all. 

Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy or Mr. Cohn ? 

Senator McCarthy. General Ryan, I first would want to compli- 
ment you. You are one of the few witnesses who has been able to 
answer questions without giving long, rambling speeches. I may say 
I think your excellent record in Korea fighting Communists perhaps 
gives you a better picture of the importance of fighting back home 
than maybe some people have. I would like personally to thank you 
for having made Mr. Schine available over weekends when he was not 
in training to do committee work. 

Mr. Schine had been with us, working for a long time, especially 
on the Fort Monmouth radar laboratories, where some 33 security 
risks, all with Communist backgrounds, were exposed and finally 
removed from that work. I assume that you would agree with me, 
from your experience in Korea and in the Army, that one of the prime 
targets of any nation which wanted to destroy us would be to try to 
infiltrate our military. There is no question about that, is there? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir, I believe that they would try to infiltrate 
the military as well as the press and the educational institutions. 

Senator McCarthy. Just one other question. I may say that I 
have been trying to find out over and over again that your difficulty 
has not been with the uniformed men like yourself, but our principal 
difficulty has been with the civilians in the Pentagon, men who have 
no record of service like you have. I think if we were dealing with 
you instead of some of the civilians that we have been dealing with, 
we would not be engaged in this circus today. 

Let me ask this question : 1 am sure you wouldn't object to a com- 
mittee of the Congress digging out the few treasonable rotten apples 


in the barrel. Even though I think we would all agree that ninety-nine 
and perhaps nine-tenths percent of the military are good, honest", 
loyal Americans, but when there are rotten apples they should be dug 
out. We would agree on that, wouldn't we ? 

General Ryan. I believe rotten apples should be dug out whether 
they are in the military or out of the military, Senator. 

Senator McCarthy. R ight. 

Mr. Chairman, I have one request to make at this time. In view 
of the fact that Mr. St. Clair has gone into the character rating of 
Mr. Schine, I think in fairness to Mr. Schine we should ask General 
Howard to appear. The news stories were to the effect that General 
Howard at the end of Mr. Schine's training at Cam]) Gordon said 
that he was an outstanding soldier from the standpoint of character, 
efficiency, and almost everything else. I would like to have that re- 
quest complied with, if possible. 

General, you did not compile these charts, did you? You never saw 
them until today ? 

General Ryan. That is the first time I ever saw that chart. 

Senator McCarthy. I would not question about these, except that 
you have been asked to testify on them. 

I would like now, if I can, to demonstrate what I consider the most 
dishonest, the most phony job of chart making that I have ever seen. 
I may have to ask you some questions, because I understand the in- 
formation came from — we have the Pvt. David Schine chart with a 
great number of black marks on it. Then we have the chart of the 
average soldier with but few black marks on it. 

Senator Mtjndt. Senator, will you raise your voice. We can't hear 
a thing you are saying because the microphone can't follow you to the 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, I would like now to demon- 
strate how phony, how dishonest this chart is. When I get through, 
I would like to find out who prepared it and have them put under 

You will notice on Tuesday, the 3d of November, Mr. Schine gets a 
black block for being inducted. It is white for other inductees. 

General, there is certainly no reason why a man should get a black 
mark for being inducted, is that right? Is that correct, General? 

General Ryan. That is correct ; yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Now we go on further and we find that on the 
23d, Mr. Schine's basic training started. Let's put an "X" there. 
There is no reason why he should be criticized because his basic train- 
ins started, right, and why someone else's chart should remain clear: 
is that correct, General ? 

General Ryan. Correct. 

Senator McCarthy. Keep in mind you are not the man who drafted 

As to phone calls, there are notes all through this chart about phone 
calls. Doesn't the average trainee also get phone calls or make phone 

General Ryan. Some trainees get phone calls, yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. So there should be some "X's" in here for the 
average trainee, and there is nothing dishonest or wrong about a 
trainee getting a phone call, is there ? 


General Ryan. No, sir, there isn't. 

Senator McCarthy. There is nothing improper about a man in 
the Army calling his girl friend, is there ? 

General Ryan. No, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Let's put a few X's in here to show that maybe 
a few other privates also have girl friends and make calls. 

Now let's get down to the 20th, if we may. On the 20th, we find 
that Mr. Schine gets a black mark because he was on pass until 
11:05 p. m. We find, however, that the average trainee does not 
get a black mark even though he is on pass until midnight. General, 
I assume that you will agree with me that when you give a private a 
black mark for getting back at 11:05, then the average trainee who 
stays up until midnight should get a like black mark; right? There 
is no question about that, is there? 

General Ryan. No, sir, I don't think so. 

Senator McCarthy. I may say, General, I want to emphasize again 
that I know you had nothing to do with the preparation of this chart. 
The only reason I am questioning you on it is because you were asked 
to testify on this in the direct-examination. 

General Ryan. Senator, I won't say I had nothing to do with the 
preparation of the chart. All of the information that was put on 
that chart came from Fort Dix. 

Senator McCarthy. But you didn't give a black mark to Schine 

General Ryan. No, sir, I didn't. 

Senator McCarthy. For staying out until 11 : 05, and a white mark 
to another private for staying out until midnight, did you? 

General Ryan. No, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Now let's go on to the 27th. We find that 
Schine gets a black mark on this phony chart because he was on pass 
until 10 : 50. The other draftee gets a white mark even though he 
was up until midnight. If we want an honest chart we should black 
that in too, should we not? I may say I think this is a great waste 
of time and I wonder how much money has been spent on these phony 
charts, but as long as they were presented obviously for the purpose 
of getting them on the television screen to create the false impression 
that there was something wrong about Schine's staying out until 
11:05 and other privates staying out until midnight, I think we 
must fill in the chart. 

Let's go on a step further, if we may, General. 

On the 24th we find a complete black — maybe we should put this up 
here so we can see it — we find a complete black mark for Schine be- 
cause he is on pass at 11 :30 a. m. for Christmas weekend per company 
policy. We find that the average private gets a white mark for 
being on the same weekend pass. Let's black that in also. In other 
w T ords, if it was a black mark against Schine, it should be a black 
mark against the average private. 

Then we have on the 19th, General, a black mark against Private 
Schine because he was on pass at 4:30 per company policy, a white 
mark for the other privates. 

If we want to be honest about this and not have a phony chart — we 
have had a lot of talk about phony pictures here — I think we should 
black in the other private the same as Schine. Right? 
Isn't that making this a fair chart, General ? 


General Ryan. Ssnator, I have never seen that chart that you are 
marking there until about 10 minutes ago, so I would rather not coin- 

to o / 

ment on that. 

Senator McCarthy. General, will you come over here so I can show 
you this? 

General Ryan. I have a copy of it here. 

Senator McCarthy. Will you look at it, then? 

Just make sure 1 make no' mistake. You will find in all these areas 
which are now black, which were white, Private Schine got a black 
block for doing exactly the same as the other privates under your 
command did, isn't that correct? 

Then will you agree with me that that makes this a completely dis- 
honest and a phony chart? 

General Ryan. No, sir. I don't think anything put out by the Army 
is dishonest in this case. 

Senator McCarthy. Let's not say by the Army. Who put it out, 
do you know, General ? I don't like to have us refer to some lawyer 
who is brought in here as the Army. I think that is unfair to the Army. 

General, I think I represent the Army as much as anyone in this 
room does. This is not put out by the Army, General, as far as I know, 
was it? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir; I think it was. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you know who put it out? 

General Ryan. I suppose that the counsel which represented the 
Army prepared this from documentary evidence that was submitted 
to them. But the form. Senator, the black for Private Schine and the 
white for the normal trainee I don't know why that differentiation 
was made. They couldn't have been made both black. 

Senator McCarthy. Maybe, I can tell you. It is a dishonest attempt 
to deceive the people watching on television, putting up this chart 
making it all black on Schine's chart and making it white on the aver- 
age trainee, so let's black it in. Where the average trainee got passes, 
let's black it in so that the television audience can see what our friends 
here, and they don't represent the Army, have been doing. Let them 
decide whether this is honest or dishonest. Let's go a step further. 
On the 25th and 26th, the average private on pass all day, no black 
mark there, but a blackout for Schine because he was on pass all day. 
If we want to create the correct picture, we must black this in, shouldn't 

General Ryan. They were both on pass ; yes. 

Senator McCarthy. And if Schine was blacked out for being on 
pass, then the other private should be blacked out for being on pass? 
General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Now, let's go down to the 31st. The average 
private absent on pass at 11 : 30 gets a white mark, Private Schine, be- 
cause he stayed 15 minutes longer on the post, didn't leave until 11 : 45, 
gets a black mark. Now, if Schine is to get a black mark for leaving 
15 minutes later, staying on the post 15 minutes longer, the average 
private should get a black mark here, too, right? So, let's black 
that in. 

General Ryan. Senator, we had a local rule there that a trainee 
should leave on pass either Christmas or New Years. Private Schine 
was absent on both occasions. 


Senator McCarthy. Then, one of these, perhaps, should not be 
blacked in, is that right ? Is that your thought ? 

General Ryan. The chart indicates that Private Schine was absent 
on both weekends, and the normal trainee was only absent on one week- 

Senator McCarthy. 1 think you make a good point there. Then, 
one of these should not be blacked in. 

Senator Mundt. The Senator's time has expired. 

Mr. Prewitt, have you any further questions? 

Mr. Prewitt. Just a few other questions. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Prewitt, we will start around the clock again. 

Mr. Prewitt. General, to clear up these charts, I will ask you again 
if the chart which has at the top of it "Private G. David Schine," is 
that chart an accurate record of the absences and telephone messages 
to the Commanding General ? 

General Ryan. As far as I know, it is ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Prewitt. Have you examined the chart ? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Prewitt. And it does accurately reflect what it purports to re- 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Prewitt. And I will ask you again to look at the other chart, 
■which is entitled "Typical Authorized Absences of an Average 
Trainee." Is that an accurate reflection of typical authorized absences 
of an average trainee while at Fort Dix ? 

General Ryan. I should say it is ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Prewitt. And you have examined that ? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Prewitt. Did you have anything to do with the blacking in of 
the dates on the first chart? 

General Ryan. No, sir; I did not. I didn't make that decision. It 
was prepared and there were a few errors in it and referred to Fort 
Dix in this form [indicating], and those corrections were made as far 
as we were concerned, but the large chart I didn't see until this morn- 

Senator Mundt. General, for purposes of this morning, would you 
indicate what you mean by this chart and the last chart? Would you 
describe it so the record will be clear? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

There is one chart indicating the absences of Private Schine and 
another chart indicating the absences of a normal trainee. 

Senator Mundt. And both charts, you say, you did not see until 
this morning ? 

General Ryan. The chart that indicates the absences of Private 
Schine in this form I did see. But the large chart I had not seen until 
this mornins. 

Senator Mundt. In other words, you say the chart with the informa- 
tion rather than the blackout and' the white-faced chart which they 
used for comparative purposes? 

General Ryan. I saw the chart for Private Schine but not the chart 
on the average trainee. 
Senator Mundt. All right. 

Mr. Prewctt. You were questioned about these telephone calls, 
General, and I will ask you if there is anything unusual about a private 


making as man} 7 as 250 long-distance telephone calls during his 8-week 
basic-training period. 

General Ryan. I should say that that was quite a large number of 
telephone calls for any private to make. But if he wanted to make 
those calls on his spare time and he had the money to pay for them, 
I don't see any reason why he couldn't make them. I don't think that 
there has ever been a private at Fort Dix, and we have had about 250,- 
000 through there since 1947, that has ever approached this record 
that Private Schine apparently made. 

Mr. Prewitt. Is there anything unusual about a private in the Army 
calling his girl friend as many as 4 times on 1 day, both during 
duty hours and off duty ? 

General Ryan. Well, I don't know anything about Private Schine's 
private life, whether these people he called were girl friends or in- 
formers, or who they were. But I suppose that depends upon the 
individual how many times you call your girl up in a day. 

Mr. Prewitt. I have no further questions. 

Senator Mtjndt. Do you keep a record down at Fort Dix of all the 
phone calls that all the privates in the Army make, General? 

General Ryan. No, sir. 

Senator Mtjndt. I was wondering how you determined how many 
phone calls each private makes and whether he is calling his girl 
friends or his mother. 

General Ryan. We tried to subpena the telephone calls at Fort 
Dix in connection with our Inspector General's investigation but we 
were unable to get them. They said that the Inspector General 
couldn't subpena a phone call. You had to court-martial somebody 
in order to get the phone calls. We didn't feel we had sufficient evi- 
dence to have a court-martial, so we didn't get the phone calls at Fort 

Senator Mtjndt. Thank you for that explanation. That indicates 
the power of congressional investigations. We cannot always get 
everything, but we can subpena a great deal. 

This may not be a proper question, and if it is not, don't answer it. 
We have talked all around an Inspector General's report and nobody 
has asked a question which seems appropriate to ask in that connection. 

I think you said it was a 619-page report, and I am not sure whether 
you said you had read it or not. You did say you had not made your 
decision on it. It seems to me if you have read it and if you know 
what is in it. maybe you can tell us whether or not Private Schine did 
get preferential treatment by virtue of the fact he misused the pass 
privileges which were granted him. Frankly, I have not read it. 

If it is an improper question, I don't want to ask it, but if it is, we 
have talked all around it and we have talked about the fact that he 
had 12 passes, that they were allegedly on committee business, that 
the Inspector General made an investigation, that he made a report, 
so I think it would be pertinent at least for us to find out whether or 
not the Inspector General determined as a result of that investigation 
that Private Schine was, in fact, not using his pass privileges for 
committee business when he alleged that he was so doing. 

General Ryan. As I have stated before, we have no information 
that Private Schine used his pass privileges for other than official 


Senator Mundt. By "we" do you include the Inspector General's 
report ? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Senator Mundt. No further questions. 

Senator McClellan ? 

Senator McClellan. General, did I understand from you that these 
charts that have been referred to were prepared from information 
you furnished? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. So whatever they reflect, whether they are 
accurate or not, is based upon information furnished by you? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. Did you furnish accurate information? 

General Ryan. As far as we were able to ; yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. Will you tell us wherein these charts are 
dishonest ? 

General Ryan. I don't see anything dishonest at all about them, 
Senator. I think they are all right. 

Senator McClellan. There has been some testimony here or state- 
ments that they are phony and dishonest and do not reflect the truth. 
What do 3 r ou say about it? You have the basic information. Do 
they reflect the truth or are they inaccurate and misleading? 

General Ryan. No; I say that they reflect the truth, and they are 
not inaccurate and misleading, and the only difference is that they 
blacked in the part pertaining to Private Schine and they haven't 
blacked in the part pertaining to the normal private. 

Senator McClellan. General, are you able to and will you take 
the charts, based on the personal information you have as commander 
of that post, and how it operates, and make any changes in the 
charts that you think are necessary to make them portray definitely 
accurate information with respect to this matter? 

General Ryan. I would be very happy to, Senator. I agree with 
Senator McCarthy that surely, some of these men that we have, made 
telephone calls which they appended on Private Schine's chart here. 
I think anyone would agree to that. As far as I am concerned, if 
they want to black in the parts indicating the period that the or- 
dinary trainee spends on pass, I am sure that nobody on the Army's 
side would object to that. 

Senator McClellan. General, the whole purpose of this is : If this 
committee is being imposed on by dishonest charts that are calculated 
to mislead and deceive either this committee or the American people 
or anyone else, I want to find it out. That inference is here before the 
committee, that this committee has been imposed upon by these charts. 
I know of no one who knows more about the facts than you, and if these 
charts are dishonest, if they are phony, if they are inaccurate, if they 
are deceptive, I ask you to correct them and submit them to this com- 
mittee in corrected form so as to reflect the truth as you know it to be. 

Are you willing to do that? 

General Ryan. I would be very willing to do that; yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. All right. That is all, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dirksen? 

Senator Dirksen. General Ryan, I suppose the telephone installa- 
tion at Camp Dix or Fort Dix is a Signal Corps installation, isn't it? 


General Ryan. No, sir. It is a private installation run by the Bell 
Telephone Co. 

Senator Dirksen. How can a youngster in camp telephone or receive 
calls? Are these on so-called pay station facilities? 

General Ryan. Pay station facilities, yes, sir. 

Senator Dirksen. Are they monitored so you would know whether 
Private Jones made so many calls or Private Smith so many, or re- 
ceived so many? You wouldn't have that information? 

General Ryan. No, sir ; I would not. 

Senator Dirksen. So you wouldn't have any way of comparing 
whether the number of calls that Private Schine made was greater than 
perhaps some other boys in camp may have made? 

General Ryan. No, sir, I would not. 

Senator Dirksen. The rest of it, of course, is only a gratuitous 
observation, because when I landed in the Army away back in 1918, 
1 know that my bunk buddy was making an inordinate number of 
telephone calls, but I discovered later why — because he was the vice 
president of a manufacturing company and every day either his wife 
or his subordinates were calling up or he was calling and giving some 
directions in connection with business interests. Where I may have 
made one call in a week, the chances are he may have been making a 
hundred. So I suppose to get an accurate picture you would have to 
know what the whole background was. 

General Ryan. Each individual would present a separate case. 

Senator Dirksen. That is right. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Jackson? 

Senator Jackson. General, just one point. You made a distinction 
with reference to the phone calls on the chart. The phone calls listed 
on Private Schine's chart refer to what kind of calls, General ? 

General Ryan. They refer to the incoming calls from members of 
the committee. 

Senator Jackson. To you ? 

General Ryan. To my headquarters, which were transmitted to 
regimental headquarters and then relayed to Private Schine in his 

Senator Jackson. How many calls do you get for the average 
private to you? 

General Ryan. I don't get any. This is the only case that I have 
ever had a request to relay a call. 

Senator Jackson. As far as these phone calls on the chart are 
concerned, they relate specifically to the unusual nature of the calls 
to you or to your aides ? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson. That is all. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Potter ? 

Senator Potter. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman, just the com- 
ment that I am greatly impressed by General Ryan. If I ever have to 
go to combat again, I wouM like to be in General Ryan's command. 

General Ryan. Thank you, Senator. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Symington? 

Senator Symington. General Ryan, this is a quasijudicial body, 
as I understand it, during these hearings. I would like to ask 
a couple of questions. Do you know who prepared these charts? 


General Ryan. These charts were prepared, as I understand it, 
by the counsel for the Army based on information that we fur- 
nished them. The original chart, which was made some time back, 
on Private Schine, was referred to us and there were a few discrep- 
ancies that we corrected and sent back. 

Senator Symington. Inasmuch as the charts were prepared for 
public display, and in the minds of the average American "black" 
is supposed to be negative and "white" is positive, and inasmuch as 
the Army has made these charges with respect to Private Schine, 
don't you think it might have been more fair to have put the black 
on the average and the white on Private Schine? 

General Ryan. I don't know what the motive was, but it looks 
to me as though all of us would agree that they both could have been 
black; yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. No further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dworshak? 

Senator Dworshak. No questions. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch or Mr. St. Clair? 

Mr. St. Clair. I have one question, Mr. Chairman. 

General, would you examine the chart for Pvt. G. David Schine 
and tell us if there is any reference in that chart to any telephone 
calls other than telephone calls to the committee or from the com- 

General Ryan. No, sir. 

Mr. St. Clair. So if it has been asserted here that this chart reflects 
telephone calls to girl friends, that assertion is not correct? 

General Ryan. That is right. 

Mr. St. Clair. No further questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy or Mr. Cohn? 

Senator McCarthy. General, I think maybe you might want to 
correct one very slight mistake in your testimony which I know was 
inadvertent. I am sure of that, because I have complete respect for 
your veracity. You said that all this information was known to you. 
I notice that on this chart we have calls from Carr to Adams. That 
information obviously was supplied by someone else and I think we 
should have the record correct. 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. I had no information on that. 

Senator McCarthy. Just 1 minute on this chart, if we may. I 
think this is very important. This show, or call it what you may, is 
being tried before some 20 million people. There is no possible doubt 
in my mind as to the reason for putting this chart on Schine up, leaving 
it here on an easel all morning so it could be photographed, so the tele- 
vision audience could see it, and then have a chart that is completely 
white showing the average private. I think it is one of the most dis- 
honest jobs of attempted deception that I have ever seen, but like all 
of these attempted deceptions, they sometimes backfire. So let's finish 
blacking in the average private instead of giving him a white mark 
where you give Schine a black mark, if we may. 

We find on Schine's chart on Friday, the 1st of January he was on 
pass all day. He gets a black mark for that. Right here, Jim. The 
average private gets a white mark. 

On the 2d, Schine a black mark for a pass all day on Saturday. The 
average private a white mark. 


Schine gets a black mark because he was transferred on the lGth to 
Camp Gordon. Let me ask you something, General : There is no rea- 
son why a private should get a black mark for being transferred from 
one duty station to another ? There was no fault on his part in that, 
was there ? 

General Ryan. No, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. So that I think we would agree that when you 
put a chart up on a television screen, showing Schine getting a black 
mark for being transferred, someone was trying to deceive the people 
watching this. Isn't that the only conclusion ? 

General Ryan. Senator, it looks to me as though the persons who 
prepared these charts wanted to make one different from the other in 
order to provide a comparison. It might have been just as well the 
other way. 

Senator McCarthy. They certainly did, a little too cleverly, I 
would say. Let's black in on the 10th, a pass until midnight for the 
average private, a white mark ; Schine gets a pass only until 11 o'clock, 
he gets a black mark. There is no reason why Schine should get a 
black mark for coming home an hour earlier, is there? Am I right, 

General Ryan. No, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. The 23d, we find Schine is blamed because his 
basic training for K Company started, and we find also, General, on 
the 8th of December, the thing is filled in because Schine missed K. P. 
duty. You testified that he made up any K. P. duty he missed. Isn't 
that right? 

General Ryan. No ; he didn't make up that K. P. duty, Senator. He 
went to the telephone exchange after he left my office to put in many, 
many telephone calls that day when he should have gone back to K. P. 

Senator McCarthy. In other words, he did not make up the K. P. 
he lost on the 23d ? 

General Ryan. No, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Just one final question, and I think maybe 
now we can see the dishonesty of the original chart. 

Mr. Chairman, I would like to have called before this committee 
and put under oath the man who prepared these completely deceptive 
charts, giving Schine a black mark for getting the passes which the 
average private got and giving him a white mark. I think Senator 
Symington makes a good point of that. 

Now, General, just one final question. "VVe agree that Private 
Schine got many more passes than the average trainee ? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you think it is any special privilege for a 
private to be allowed to work after his training is over, work on the 
work of a committee which is exposing Communists, where the other 
privates, as you say, can go to the movies, they can go out and do what 
they care to ? In other words, that is no special consideration for the 
private, was it ? 

General Ryan. Senator, this wasn't very unusual for me, because 
I had just returned from Korea, where we worked 7 days a week, 
sometimes 16 and 18 hours a day. We had no weekends, Saturdays, 
Sundays, and holidays and evening, worked all day, every day. The 
professional corps of the Army today doesn't take weekends off. 


Senator McCarthy. So you would approve of his 

General Ryan. I didn't question that in the slightest bit. 

Senator McCarthy. In other words, you would approve of the 
private working weekends, working evenings, no objection to that? 
As you say, you worked 7 days a week, much more than 12 hours, and 
you would have no objection to giving this private permission to 
work when his training was over? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. If he was doing work for the committee, 
I certainly think it was all right. 

Senator McCarthy. I want to thank you very much, General. 

Senator Mundt. Is that all ? 

Senator McCarthy. That is all. 

Senator Mundt. Counsel, have you completed ? 

Mr. PREWiTr. I have no further questions. 

Senator Mundt. Anybody to the right of me ? 

Anybody to the left ? 

Mr. Welch or Mr. St. Clair? 

Mr. St. Clair. I have one further question: If you will look at 
that chart that has been marked up by Mr, Juliana, vou will observe 
that Christmas has been blacked out' as well as New Year's, is that 
correct ? 

General Ryan. The ordinary trainee 

Mr. St. Clair. Just a moment. It is correct, is it not. that Mr. 
Juliana has blacked out Christmas and New Year's, has he not? 

General Ryan. Yes; he has. 

Mr. St. Clair. And isn't there a sign on that chart, right in front 
of anyone that would mark it, to the effect that the trainees are 
authorized either Christmas or New Year's passes but not both? 
Is that correct ? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. St. Clair. So that Private Schine obtained a pass on Christmas 
and on New Year's, is that correct ? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. St. Clair. And an ordinary private would not have? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. St. Clair. So that a black — that chart is somewhat misleading* 
is it not? V 

General Ryan. Yes, sir; in that respect it is. There should be one 
or the other blacked out. 

Senator McCarthy. Let's get that straight again. Here is another 

Senator Mundt. Have you concluded? Senator McCarthy, you 
have 10 minutes. 

Senator McCarthy. Here is another example of trying to suppress 
the facts. When the general pointed out to me, when Mr. Juliana was 
blacking out the chart, he pointed out that only one should be blacked 
out. Mr. St. Clair was sitting there and he knew that, I think we 
should try and stick to some rules that you follow in a courtroom. 

Let me ask you this, General, since' it has been brought up, and I 
have no idea what your answer will be, Is it true that some trainees 
get both Christmas and New Year's off? 

General Ryan. There were some trainees that did get Christmas and 
New Year's. 


Senator McCarthy. Thank you. Some trainees other than Scliine ? 

General Ryan. Very few. Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Thank you very much. 

Senator Muxdt. The Chair believes we have concluded with Gen- 
eral Ryan. 

Mr. St. Clair. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask one more question. 

Senator Mundt. You can ask questions after we go around and find 
out if anybody has concluded. Anybody to my right % 

Anybody to my left ? 

All right, Mr. St. Clair. 

Mr. St. Clair. Will you tell us under what circumstances a private 
at Fort Dix would get both Christmas and New Years off? 

General Ryan. Under emergency circumstances. 

Mr. St. Clair. Thank you. 

Senator Mundt. Any further questions ? 

Senator McCarthy. I have a request to make to the Chair which, 
has nothing to do with General Ryan. 

Senator Mundt. General Ryan, Ave thank you for coming. You 
have been a forthright witness. Up until now I thought General 
Bedell Smith was our most explicit witness, but up to now ycu are 
running a close parallel. 

Thank you very much. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a request 
cf the Chair now and I hope this can be done immediately, if possible. 
Without interrupting the hearings, of course. We have now what 
appears to — I do not think I need to comment on it, we have millions 
of people looking at these charts — we have what appears to have been 
a deliberate attempt to mislead, a white chart showing the average 
private, one with Schine's passes blacked out. I think we should find 
out, Mr. Chairman, I think the staff should be instructed to conduct 
an investigation, find out who is responsible for this attempted decep- 
tion, find out how much it cost, who paid for it, why all these photo- 
stats, how many have been put out, how many generals, how many 
colonels, how many privates have been working on this project and 
under whose orders. 

Senator Mundt. Counsel advises me he will explore that and try 
to determine the information during the noon hour to see whether 
a witness will be available. At this time we will call the next witness 
for the Army side of the case. 

Mr. Prewitt. Mr. Chairman, we would like to call Lt. John B. 

Senator Mundt. Lieutenant Blount ? 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will 
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you 

Lieutenant Blount. I do. 



Senator Mcndt. Mr. Prewitt, you may begin the interrogatories. 

Mr. Prewitt. State your name, please. 

Lieutenant Blount. My name is John Bruce Blount. 

Mr. Prewitt. You are a first lieutenant ? 


Lieutenant Blount. That is correct, sir. 

Mr. Prewitt. Where are you stationed? 

Lieutenant Blount. I am stationed at Fort Dix, N. J. 

Mr. Prewitt. And what is your duty there? 

Lieutenant Blount. My duty is to perform the duties as aide de 
camp to the commanding general, General Ryan. 

Mr. Prewttt. And for how long have you been aide de camp to 
General Ryan? 

Lieutenant Blount. I have been General Ryan's aide de camp since 
September 9, 1952. 

Mr. Prewitt. And you were the general's aide de camp in November 
of 1953 I 

Lieutenant Blount. That is correct, sir. 

Mr. PREwrrr. When did you first learn that Pvt. G. David Schine 
was to be assigned to Fort Dix ? 

Lieutenant Blount. On November 3, 1953. 

Mr. Prewitt. And were you informed by General Ryan? 

Lieutenant Blount. Yes. sir; by General Ryan and also I was 
present at the luncheon with Secretary Stevens when he referred 
to Private Schine. 

Mr. Prewitt. When did Private Schine actually report to Fort Dix. 
if you know ? 

Lieutenant Blount. On November 10, 1953. 

Mr. Prewitt. When was your first contact with any member of 
the McCarthy committee, by telephone or otherwise ? 

Lieutenant Blount. I was first contacted on November 12, 1953, by 
Mr. La Venia. 

Mr. Prewitt. At that time were you familiar with the fact that 
Secretary Stevens had given certain instructions with reference to 
passes for Private Schine? 

Lieutenant Blount. Yes. sir; I was. I was completely informed 
by General Ryan of Secretary Stevens' policy. 

Mr. Prewitt. What was the substance of your first contact with 
a member of the McCarthy committee? 

Lieutenant Blount. Mr. La Venia called me and introduced himself 
on the phone. I had never met Mr. La Venia. and he explained the 
circumstances about a pass, that he would like to get a pass for Private 
Schine for the weekend of November 13, 14, and 15, for the purpose 
of Private Schine's performing subcommittee business, working on 
subcommittee business. 

Air. Prewitt. Lieutenant, subsequent to that first call, did you re- 
ceive many or few calls from members of the McCarthy committee 
v ith reference to passes for Private Schine? 

Lieutenant Blount. I received very many calls. 

Mr. Prewitt. Can you tell us how many calls you received with 
reference to Private Schine % 

Lieutenant Blount. With reference to Private Schine, to the best 
of my memory and records, I would say they were in excess of 25 calls 
with reference to Private Schine. 

Mr. Prewitt. To whom did you talk on the committee ? 

Lieutenant Blount. I spoke with Mr. Cohn, Mr. La Venia, Mr. 
Anastcs, Mr. Juliana, and some of the secretaries in Senator Mc- 
Carthy's office. 


Mr. Prewitt. All of those calls, I take it, were directed to the 
proposition of securing passes or absences from the post for Private 

Lieutenant Blount. No, sir, that is not exactly correct. Some of 
them were calls for information regarding Private Schine's status 
at Fort Dix. Some of them were complaints about Private Schine, 
what was happening to Private Schine. 

Mr. Prewitt. During the course of your duty there as aide to the 
commanding general, have you ever received calls in your capacity 
as an aide to the General with reference to obtaining passes or any 
type of unusual treatment for a jrrivate or trainee ? 

Lieutenant Blount. Yes, sir, once in a while in my capacity as aide 
to the commanding general, I get a mother of one of the trainees on 
the phone, and she is interested in seeing that justice is done as far 
as her boy is concerned. She wants either to get him home over a 
weekend when her other son, who has been in Korea for, say, a year, 
or in Europe for a year — wants to get them both home at the same 
time. Several calls like that may ensue back and forth. 

We also get calls from mothers who tell me all about the qualifica- 
tions of their boys. They say, "My boy went to college and he has 
a degree, and he is a fine boy. We would like very much to have him 
put in the engineering field, in a professional field." 

I take all that information down and I say, "We will let you know 
what we can do." 

Mr. Prewitt. These calls that you get, would they be isolated calls ? 

Lieutenant Blount. Yes, sir, I would say they would be isolated. 
In most instances there would be no degree of persistency on the part 
of the mother or the father. They would let me know what they 
wanted, and that would be about it. They wouldn't follow up to a 
great degree. 

Mr. Prewitt. In any of the calls from any members of the Mc- 
Carthy committee staff, was any abusive language used or employed 
by any member of the McCarthy committee directed toward you, and 
if so, tell us who was on the other end of the line, and the date, and the 
circumstances of the call. 

Lieutenant Blount. "Abusive language" is a very elusive term. 
As far as I can recall, there were no swear words used in my conversa- 
tions with any of the members of the subcommittee stall. Several 
times Mr. Cohn got extremely angry at what was gomg on at Fort 
Dix. He didn't think things were being handled quite properly, and 
he let me know in no uncertain terms. 

Mr. Prewitt. Will you state as clearly as you can, Lieutenant, the 
verbiage employed by Mr. Cohn when you say he let you know T in no 
uncertain terms that he was unhappy with the situation at Fort Dix? 

Lieutenant Blount. On one occasion he said that the Army was re- 
neging on our agreement. As General Ryan related, on the 9th of 
January he talked about 2 of the officers at Fort Dix 

Mr. Prewitt. Tell the committee as nearly as you can, Lieutenant, 
the exact words used by Mr. Cohn and name the officers to which you 
refer ? 

Lieutenant Blount. May I relate the incident on the 9th of 
January ? 

Mr. Prewitt. Yes. 


Lieutenant Blount. At approximately 4 o'clock or 4:30 in the 
afternoon of January 9, I returned to my quarters, and my wife told 
me that I had a phone call from Mr. Cohn in New York City, and 
would I please call him back. I called Mr. Cohn back, and we got 
into a discussion which later turned into an argument about Private 
Schine being on K. P. on January 10. We discussed the terminology 
used in the agreement that we had. I told Mr. Cohn that the decision 
to put Private Schine on K. P. had been made by the regimental com- 
mander, and that the division commander, General Ryan, was com- 
pletely cognizant of that fact. I told Mr. Cohn that we considered 
K. P. part of Private Schine's training and that as far as we were 
concerned, he was not going to get off K. P. on January 10. 

Pursuant to that — Mr. Cohn didn't agree with me, by the way. 

Pursuant to that, he said that some people at Fort Dix had been 
very cooperative, but that Colonel Eingler and Lieutenant Miller had 
made things especially difficult for Private Schine, and that he, Mr. 
Cohn, had a very long memory, and was never going to forget their 

Senator Mundt. Will you spell the first man's name for the benefit 
of the press ? They can all spell Miller but that first name. 

Lieutenant Blount. Col. Earl L. Eingler. 

Senator Mundt. Thank you. 

Mr. Prewitt. Is that the only occasion on which Mr. Cohn expressed 
dissatisfaction with the way things were going for Private Schine ? 

Lieutenant Blount. No, sir. On the 16th of December Mr. Cohn 
arrived at Fort Dix and came to my office to meet Private Schine. At 
that time, that was subsequent to the time when General Ryan told 
Private Schine there would be no more week-night passes, and from 
that time on the members of the committee, if they wished to confer 
with Private Schine, would have to come to Fort Dix to confer with 

Following that, on several occasions members of the committee staff 
did come to Fort Dix, and subsequent — prior to the 16th of Decem- 
ber they came on the 11th and 15th, and Mr. Cohn came on the 16th. 
Mr. Cohn said to me at that time that — he wasn't angry or anything. 
He just said to me — he complained to me that "Coming down to Fort 
Dix all the time is just killing me, and the members of the staff." 
He said, "I can't do it all the time. It is just physically killing me." 

That was on one occasion that he complained. 

Another occasion that he complained was on the 4th of January, 
when he called me at my office. He wanted to know why Private 
Schine was being investigated. I told him that Private Schine 


Mr. Prewitt. Lieutenant, was that with reference to the New Year's 


Lieutenant Blount. Yes, sir ; it was. 

Mr. Prewitt. Go ahead. 

Lieutenant Blount. He wanted to know why Private Schine was 
being investigated. In his opinion no investigation was warranted. 
I said that the investigation — again I told him that the investigation 
was conducted by the regimental commander and that General Ryan 
knew about it and that Private Schine would be interrogated in the 
normal course of an investigation. That was the other time that he 


Mr. Preavitt. Have you related all of the conversations you had 
with Mr. Colin concerning the particular subject that I mentioned? 

Lieutenant Blount. Insofar as I can recall ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Preavitt. Lieutenant, are you familiar with the two charts that 
have already been introduced as exhibits to the testimony of General 
Ryan this morning? 

Lieutenant Blount. Yes, sir ; I am. I am more familiar with this 

Mr. Preavitt. You are holding up the chart labeled "Pvt. G. David 

Lieutenant Blount. Yes, sir. I am more familiar with this chart 
than I am with this chart. 

Mr. Preavitt. Identify the last chart. 

Lieutenant Blount. This chart is entitled "Typical Authorized 
Absences of an AA T erage Trainee Undergoing Training Cycle While 
Assigned to Company K, 47th Infantry Regiment, Fort Dix, N. J." 

Mir. Pkewitt. Direct yourself to the first chart, that is, the one 
labeled "Pat, G. David Schine," and tell me if you are familiar with 
the facts reflected on that chart. 

Lieutenant Blount. Yes, sir; I am familiar with the facts on that 

Mr. Preavitt. Is that chart an accurate, authentic, reflection of what 
it purports to represent? 

Lieutenant Blount. Yes, sir, it is. 

Mr. Preavitt. And you know that of your own personal knowledge ? 

Lieutenant Blount. Most of it of my own personal knowledge. 
There are several things on here that I don't know of my oavu personal 
knowledge. One is the temporary duty in New York. I was told 
that he had temporary duty in New York. Also, that Schine was 
inducted on the 3d of November. I was told. I wasn't actually 

Mr. Preavitt. That is for the period prior to November 10 ? 

Lieutenant Blount. Prior to the arrival at Fort Dix; yes, sir. 

Mr. Preavitt. Now, look at the other chart, the second chart that 
you held up. I will ask you if you are familiar with the facts con- 
tained on that chart? 

Lieutenant Blount. I am familiar with it in the sense that I know 
the procedure that we follow at Fort Dix as far as the average trainee 
is concerned. I knoAV about the average number of passes that the 
average trainee would receive. 

Mr. Preavitt. Is that an accurate, truthful reflection of what the 
average trainee receives in the way of passes at Fort Dix ? 

Lieutenant Blount. Yes, sir, as far as I know. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Pkewitt. Do you know why the dates on which Private 
Schine was off on pass were marked in black and why the dates on 
which an average trainee was on pass was not marked in black? 

Lieutenant Blount. No, sir, I do not. 

Mr. Preavitt. You had nothing to do with the preparation, the 
physical preparation, of the chart ? 

Lieutenant Blount. No, sir, other than giving the Department 
of the Army information at Fort Dix. 

Mr. Preavitt. Did you consult with counsel with reference to the 
preparation of these charts? 


Lieutenant Blount. Only insofar as the information concerned on 
the charts, sir. 

Mr. Prewitt. Is there anything dishonest or misleading with ref- 
ence to either of these charts, Lieutenant? 

Lieutenant Blount; I don't think so, sir. 

Mr. Prewitt. That is all I have. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair has no questions. 

Senator McClellan is absent on official business. 

Senator Dirksen? 

Senator Dirksen - . Lieutenant Blount, let me just ask you this: 
How far is it from Fort Dix to New York City by automobile? 

Lieutenant Blount. I would say approximately 80 miles, sir. 

Senator Dirksen. 80 miles? 

Lieutenant Blount. Yes, sir. 

Senator Dirksen. And what about air service from McGuire Air 
Force Base, which I understand is next to Fort Dix 

Lieutenant Blount. Yes, sir. 

Senator Dirksen. Are there commercial planes that fly in there? 

Lieutenant Blount. No, sir, that is completely military. 

Senator Dirksen. That i-s all Army transportation? 

Lieutenant Blount. Yes, sir. 

Senator Dirksen. Where is the closest airfield for commercial 

Lieutenant Blount. Philadelphia, sir. 

Senator Dirksen. How long would it be by car down to Philly? 

Lieutenant Blount. Approximately an hour and twenty-five min- 
utes, sir. 

Senator Dirksen. It would be as close, then, as New York City? 

Lieutenant Blount. Yes, sir. 

Senator Dirksen. The only reason for the question, then, is that if 
staff members did go up to New York, whether it was convenient for 
them to drop off for a moment and then go on their journey, or 
whether these were special trips made from Washington up or from 
New York down to Fort Dix. I just assumed, of course, that this 
may be a convenient intermediary place, that they could catch in their 
stride and then go on to New York or come back to Washington, 
either one. 

Lieutenant Blount. I don't know, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, could I interrupt with an inquiry about 
a witness? 

Mr. Jenkins informed me last night that he wanted Colonel BeLieu 
available. I was informed this morning that he was somewhat ill but 
that he probably could come, Mr. Jenkins, if given about an hour's 
notice. I meant to mention it as we opened this morning. If you 
desire Colonel BeLieu at any time within the next 2 or 3 hours, I would 
appreciate knowing it so he can be telephoned. 

Senator Mundt. Counsel advises the Chair that we probably will 
be getting to Colonel BeLieu about 8 o'clock this afternoon. 

Mr. Welch. I will see that he is telephoned now. 

Senator Mundt. We first have the matters of the charts before us 
and then we will have Colonel BeLieu. 

Senator Jackson? 


Senator Jackson. Lieutenant, you mentioned that other staff mem- 
bers had contacted you regarding this. Who were the other mem- 
bers ? 

Lieutenant Blount. Mr. Anastos, Mr. Juliana, Mr. La Venia, and 
members of the office staff of Senator McCarthy. 

Senator Jackson. Were all of those calls friendly? "Were there 
any angry words used ? 

Lieutenant Blount. No, sir. Other than Mr. Cohn most of them 
were very pleasant. 

Senator Jackson. And in the case of Mr. Cohn, it was only on this 
incident of January 9? 

Lieutenant Blount. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson. Was there any other time ? 

Lieutenant Blount. The 4th of January, sir, when he complained. 
But he didn't get quite as excited on the fourth as he did on the ninth. 

Senator Jackson. That is all. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Potter? 

Senator Potter. I have no questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Symington? 

Senator Symington. Lieutenant, when did you join the Army? 

Lieutenant Blount. June 15, 1950. 

Senator Symington. What service ? 

Lieutenant Blount. Infantry service. 

Senator Symington. How long have you been in? Since 1950? 

Lieutenant Blount. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. Service in Korea? 

Lieutenant Blount. Yes, sir, 16 months. 

Senator Symington. Married? 

Lieutenant Blount. Yes, sir, I am. 

Senator Symington. Any children ? 

Lieutenant Blount. Yes, sir, two little girls. 

Senator Symington. Fine. I see you have a Purple Heart. Where 
were you wounded ? 

Lieutenant Blount. On Baldy, sir. 

Senator Symington. You look like a worthy aide to a worthy gen- 

Lieutenant Blount. Thank you, sir. 

Senator Symington. No further questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dworshak? 

Mr. Welch or Mr. St. Clair? 

Mr. St. Clair. No questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy or Mr. Cohn ? 

Senator McCarthy. First, let me say, Lieutenant, that I also know 
something about your record, and I think it has been exceptionally 
good in combat. I don't think anyone can even remotely cast any 
reflections upon your record as a soldier, and if we had men like you 
and like General Ryan working with us in this exposure of Com- 
munists, I am sure we wouldn't be tied up here today. However, we 

You made one statement, Lieutenant, which I just wonder if you 
want to have stand, however, you said )*ou thought there was nothing 
dishonest about these charts. I don't think you should be called upon 
to pass on that, I don't believe you are an authority, but you have. 


We find that someone prepared a chart. As of this moment, we don't 
know who, but we will know by this afternoon. But they put it up 
in front of the television screen here for a couple of hours. When 
Dave Sehine was off for a weekend, it was marked out in black. "When 
other privates were off, it was pure white. I am sure you and I will 
agree that the television audience, looking- at these 2 charts, 1 pure 
white, representing the average draftee, and the other 1 all blacked 
in. representing Sehine, would assume that there was some significance 
to the blacking out, I believe that you and I, just in common honesty, 
would agree that if Sehine got a weekend off it is blacked out, and 
another draftee got a weekend off, it should be blacked out too, 
wouldn't we? After all, this is being tried before an audience or a 
jury, I should say, of quite a few million people. 

Lieutenant Blount. Sir, all I can give you is my own opinion. In 
my opinion, the reason that it was done was just for comparative 
purposes, just like in a prize fight, on television, one of the fighters 
wears dark trunks and one of the fighters wears light trunks. That is 
the only reason I know of. 

Senator McCarthy. I can see why you were selected as an aide to 
the general. 

Lieutenant Blount. Thank you, Senator. 

Senator Mundt. Any further questions? 

Senator McCarthy. I am not sure now. 

Very seriously, Lieutenant, this is a pretty important matter. I 
did not think it should be all started, I thought it was a waste of time, 
but now that we are in it, we have to try and be as completely factual 
as we can. When we put a chart up here with things all blacked out, 
insofar as Sehine is concerned, and we put it in completely white — 
since then we have blacked it out — completely white so far as the 
average private is concerned, don't you think that the millions of 
American people who are looking at this by way of television, cannot 
help but think there is something significant about those black patches 
in the chart? 

Don't you agree with me that this was done purposely by some clever 
little lawyer, I don't know who, certainly not Mr. Welch, to deceive 
the public ? That is the obvious answer, isn't it ? 

I wouldn't ask you this question, I don't think you should answer it, 
except that you did pass on it before. 

Lieutenant Blount. Sir, I said it was correct as far as I know. I 
cannot say whether it was done to deceive the public or not. 

Senator McCarthy. In other words, all you can say is that tech- 
nically it is correct, and as far as you know the information is correct? 

Lieutenant Blount. That is correct, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. But as far as this device of putting black 
marks on one and white lines on another, on that you wouldn't propose 
to pass? 

Lieutenant Blount. No, sir. I am afraid I couldn't. 

Senator McCarthy. Just one further question, Lieutenant. On 
this January 10 — January 9, I believe — conversation you had with 
Mr. Cohn, that involved the fact that Mr. Sehine was being kept on 
the base on January 10, and that Mr. Cohn had informed you that 
he had been notified that Mr. Sehine would be available for commit- 
tee work and he had arranged to have investigators present in New 


York — in fact, had arranged to have secretaries there to take down 
some of the material, the results of the previous interrogation of Mr. 
Schine. He was irritated, not because Schine had to wash dishes 
or clean the stove, but he was irritated because he had made all these 
previous arrangements, it was an important investigation, others were 
to be present, and he couldn't understand why, at the last minute, that 

g articular day should be picked for K. P., and that you should give 
chine the job of washing dishes some other day. Wasn't that pretty 
much the conversation? 

Lieutenant Blount. Sir, I should say this :■ that Schine knew about 
it on Monday morning, the Monday before, which was the — he knew 
about it on the 4th of January. That wasn't the last minute. Mr. 
Colin waited until the last minute to call me, and if»Mr. Cohn was irri- 
tated because he had all these secretaries and witnesses, and so forth, 
lined up, he certainly didn't express that idea to me. 

Senator McCarthy. Didn't he tell you that he had made arrange- 
ments for Dave Schine to come back — he understood he was coming 
back that weekend, that he was coming back for the purpose of putting 
in writing some of the information he had in regard to the radar 
laboratories at Fort Monmouth, that he needed him for that, and that 
if you wanted to put Schine on K. P. duty, put him on some other day 
if you could, because he felt he needed him that clay. Wasn't that 
the conversation? 

Lieutenant Blount. No, sir. Mr. Cohn on that particular day never 
mentioned committee work. He did say that what we wanted to do 
with Private Schine from Monday to Friday would be O. K. as far 
as he was concerned, but he didn't see why Private Schine had to pull 
K. P. on Sunday. 

Senator McCarthy. And the reason for that was because we had 
made arrangements. 

Lieutenant Blount. I don't know. 

Senator McCarthy. You have heard, haven't you — I am not try- 
ing to put you in a box here — you have heard, you know, that when 
Schine left he was right in the middle of an investigation of Com- 
munist infiltration of the radar laboratories? 

Lieutenant Blount. Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. You know, I assume, that we refused to have 
him assigned to temporary duty with our committee. We suggested 
that he go on to his usual training schedule, but that he be available 
on weekends, and Cohn did say that "On Monday to Friday you can 
put him on all the K. P. you want, but let him come back and finish 
his work with the committee over the weekend." Isn't that substan- 
tially the conversation? 

Lieutenant Blount. Sir, I say again on that particular point, in- 
sofar as I can recall, Mr. Cohn said nothing about committee business. 

Senator McCarthy. One or two further questions : 

I have here a number of news reports — and I know that sometimes 
they aren't completely accurate so I don't want to tie you down to 
these — but news reports to the effect that baseball players at Fort 
Dix missed their usual training, missed K. P. duty, missed about 
everything else in order to play baseball. I don't have any particular 
quarrel with that. I am quite a baseball fan myself. "But I just 
wonder if you and I wouldn't agree that, if a baseball player can get 



Miller, Lieutenant 1396, 140:!, ills 

MOS-1446 (G. David Schine's identification) 1401 

New Year's 1407, 1414, 1415 

New York City 1397, 1418-1420, 1422, 1423 

New York Post (publication) 1304 

New York press 1393, 1304 

Newark, N. J - 1307 

Pentagon 1388, 1404 

Pershing, General 142 4 

Philadelphia, Pa . 1420 

Plattsburg training camp 1400 

provost Marshal's School (Camp Gordon, Ga.) 1400 

Purple Heart 1421 

Radar Laboratories (Fort Monmouth) 1404 

Ringler, Col. Earl L 1390., 141s 

Ryan, Mai. Gen. Cornelius Edward 1410, 1418, 1421 

Testimony of 1388-1415 

Sehine, G. David 1388-1419, 1422 

Second World War 1400 

Secretary of the Army 1389, 

1391, 1302, 1395, 1398; 1399, 1402, 141H 

Senate of the United States 13S7, 1393 

Seventh Armv in Europe 1400 

Signal Corps (United States) 1410 

Signal Corps installation (Camp Dix) 1410 

Smith, Gen. Bedell 141". 

Stevens, Robert T 1S89, 

1391, 1392, 1395, 1396, 1399, 1402, 1410 

Telephone installation (Camp Dix) 1410 

Thanksgiving 1397, 1398 

Training camp (Plattsburg) 1400 

Twelfth Army Group, G-5 1400 

"Typical Authorized Absences of an Average Trainee" (chart, Fort Dix)__ 140S 
United States Army 1388-1390, 

1393, 1395, 1399-1404, 1406, 1407, 140!), 1411, 1412, 1415, 1417, 

1419-1421, 1424. 

United States Congress 1404 

United States Senate 1387, 1303 

United States Signal Corps 1410 

Washington, D. C 1420 

World War I 1400 

World War IT 1400 





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