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Full text of "Special Senate investigation on charges and countercharges involving: Secretary of the Army Robert T. Stevens, John G. Adams, H. Struve Hensel and Senator Joe McCarthy, Roy M. Cohn, and Francis P. Carr. Hearings before the Special Subcommittee on Investigations of the Committee on Government Operations, United States Senate, Eighty-third Congress, second session, pursuant to S. Res. 189 .."

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special senate investigation on charges 
and countercharges involving: secre- 
tary of the army robert t. stevens, john 
g. adams, h. struve hensel and senator 
joe McCarthy, roy m. cohn, and 
francis p. carr 




HEARING 

BEFORE THE 

SPECIAL SUBCOMMITTEE ON 
INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON 

GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

EIGHTY-THIED CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 
PURSUANT TO 

S. Res. 189 



PART 39 



MAY 25, 1954 



Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Operations 




UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
46620° WASHINGTON : 1954 



Superintendent ot u 

SEP 2 8 1954 



COM1HTTTEB ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS 

JOSEPH R. MCCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman 
KARL E, MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas 

MARGARET CHASE SMITH. Maine HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington 

HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts 

EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri 
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland THOMAS A. BURKE, Ohio 

CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan 

Richard J. O'Melia, General Counsel 
Walter L. Reynolds, Chief Clerk 



Special Subcommittee on Investigations 

KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota, Chairman 

HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas 

EVERETT MCKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington 
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri 

Ray H. Jenkins, Chief Counsel 

Thomas R. Pre witt, Assistant Counsel 

Robert A. Collier, Assistant Counsel 

Sons Horwitz, Assistant Counsel 

Charles A. Maner, Secretary 

II 



CONTENTS 



Page 

Appendix 1472 

Index i 

Testimony of — 

BeLieu, Col. Kenneth E., United States Armv 1432 

Murray, Lt. Col. John F. T., United States Army __ 1420. 1445 

EXHIBITS duced on Appears 

page on page 

22. Chart, representing basic training of G. David Schine at Fort 

Dix, for period of Nov. 3, 1953, to Jan. 16, 1954 1428 1472 

23. Chart, representing basic training of average trainee at Fort 

Dix, for period of Nov. 3, 1953, to Jan. 16, 1954 1428 1473 

in 



SPECIAL SENATE INVESTIGATION ON CHARGES AND 
COUNTERCHARGES INVOLVING: SECRETARY OF THE 
ARMY ROBERT T. STEVENS, JOHN G. ADAMS, H. STRUVE 
HENSEL AND SENATOR JOE MCCARTHY, ROY M. COHN, 
AND FRANCIS P. CARR 



TUESDAY, MAY 25, 1954 

United States Senate, 
Special Subcommittee on Investigations or the 

Committee on Government Operations, 

Washington, D. C. 
after recess 

(The hearing was resumed at 2 : 10 p. m., pursuant to recess.) 

Present : Senator Karl E. Mundt, Republican, South Dakota, chair- 
man; Senator Everett McKinley Dirksen, Republican, Illinois; 
Senator Charles E. Potter, Republican, Michigan ; Senator Henry C. 
Dworshak, Republican, Idaho ; Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, 
Arkansas; Senator Henry M. Jackson, Democrat, Washington; and 
Senator Stuart Symington, Democrat, Missouri. 

Also present: Ray H. Jenkins, chief counsel to the subcommittee. 
Thomas R. Prewitt, assistant counsel ; and Ruth Y. Watt, chief clerk. 

Principal participants present: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, a 
United States Senator from the State of Wisconsin; Roy M. Conn, 
chief counsel to the subcommittee ; Francis P. Carr, executive director 
of the subcommittee ; John G. Adams, Counselor to the Army ; Joseph 
N. Welch, special counsel for the Army; James D. St. Clair, special 
counsel for the Army ; and Frederick P. Bryan, counsel to H. Struve 
Hensel, Assistant Secretary of Defense. 

Senator Mundt. The committee will please come to order. 

The Chair will begin the afternoon session by welcoming our guests 
to the committee room this afternoon, and advising those who have 
not been here before of our standing committee rule that there are 
to be no audible manifestations of approval or disapproval of any 
kind by our guests in the audience. The officers in charge of the 
meeting have standing instructions from the committee to politely 
but immediately remove from the committee room any of our guests 
who violate the terms by which they entered the room, which included 
respect for the committee rule not to engage in any audible manifes- 
tations of any type. 
( I am happy to say that we have had virtually 100 percent coopera- 
tion from the audience, and better than that from the officers in 
charge, throughout these hearings, and we continue to believe that 
.we will enjoy that type of cooperation. 

1425 



1426 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

In all events, so long as you respect that rule of the committee, you 
are welcome as our guests. 

We concluded this morning with Lieutenant Blount. Will you 
call a new witness ? 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman, at this time I desire to call the next 
witness, Colonel Murray. He has not been sworn. 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, could I say a word about witnesses be- 
fore we begin ? 

Senator Mundt. You may. 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Jenkins said this morning that he would like to 
have Colonel BeLieu called. I would like to report to you, Mr. Jen- 
kins, that Colonel BeLieu came to the Pentagon and is being seen by a 
physician. He has every reason to think the physician will say he can 
testify at 3. You were good enough to say, sir, if he came into the 
room you would interrupt whatever witness was on the stand so he 
might go on. 

I have told Colonel BeLieu if the doctor says he may testify, as I 
am quite confident he will, he will come direct to this table. 

Senator Mundt. I am sure it will be agreeable to the committee to 
interrupt whatever testimony there is so that Colonel BeLieu can 
testify and leave the room as soon as he has concluded. Without 
objection, that understanding will prevail, and you may stand now 
and be sworn, sir. 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will 
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you 
God? 

Colonel Murray. I do. 

Senator Mundt. You may be seated. 

The Chair understands that this particular testimony has to do with 
the charts we discussed this morning. 

TESTIMONY OF COL. JOHN F. T. MURRAY 

Mr. Jenkins. Will you please tell the committee your full name? 

Colonel Murray. John F. T. Murray. 

Mr. Jenkins. What is your rank? 

Colonel Murray. Lieutenant colonel, United States Army. 

Mr. Jenkins. Colonel Murray, I will ask you whether or not you 
have seen or examined certain charts that were exhibited to the com- 
mittee this morning and which appear now to be on exhibition at the 
other end of the table ? 

Colonel Murray. I have. 

Mr. Jenkins. Please tell the committee who prepared those charts. 

Colonel Murray. The two charts on display at the end of the com- 
mittee table were prepared by a draftsman whose name is Eugene 
Wood. He is employed — under his supervision, I should say. He is 
a supervisor of draftsmen. I do not know whether he drew this chart 
himself or had it done under his supervision. 

Mr. Jenkins. Under whose supervision, Colonel, were those charts 
drafted or prepared? 

Colonel Murray. Generally mine, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. I will ask you first to take the draft or the chart 
entitled "G. David Schine," with his serial number on it, and I believe 
that it appears to be covered up — is that right, Mr. Cohn? Will you 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1427 

please assist down there? Will you turn it around this way just a 
little. That is fine. 

Colonel Murray, I desire to examine you first with respect to the 
chart now on exhibition and headed "Private G. David Schine, U. S.," 
with a serial number which I regret I am unable to read at this dis- 
tance. What does that chart represent, Colonel Murray ? 

Colonel Murray. That chart is a representation of David Schine's 
3 months, more or less, basic training at Fort Dix, N. J. 

Mr. Jenkins. Did I understand you to say 3 months? 

Colonel Murray. More or less, during November, December, and 
part of January, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Colonel, I want you to explain in detail that chart 
and particularly what the parts of the chart which seem to have been 
painted or chalked in black represent. 

Colonel Murray. Contemporaneously with the publication of the 
events the first effort to graphically portray Schine's experience at 
Fort Dix was initiated. I saw a chart of similar type to the one now 
before you when I was assigned to the Secretary's staff on the 27th of 
March. The chart was examined by me and other officers who were 
working with me. We used the records that had baen provided for 
us by the authorities at Fort Dix and we found certain minor dis- 
crepancies. We sent a picture of our chart to Fort Dix and had it 
bought up to date. 

When the information was turned over to us, we then had this 
chart drawn up by a draftsman in the Pentagon Building? 

Mr. Jenkins. All right, Colonel. What do the black marks on 
that chart represent ? And why are they put there ? 

Colonel Murray. The black marks were on the first chart that I 
saw, the original prototype of this one. The pattern was continued 
when we brought the chart up to date and made certain minor correc- 
tions. Why the color black was chosen, I don't know. I didn't 
choose it. 

Mr. Jenkins. Do you know who directed the making of the first 
chart that ycu saw? 

Colonel Murray. No, sir; I don't. 

Mr. Jenkins. You say you directed the making of the present 
chart now on exhibition? 

_ Colonel Murray. When the first chart was brought to my atten- 
tion, I assumed that it would be used in some way as an exhibit if 
we ever brought these affairs into the open. The second chart, or 
this one that you see here now, is merely a continuation of the project 
that was initiated. Why the colors black and white were selected, I 
don't know. I thought it was a way of portraying graphically the 
times that Schine was absent from the post. 

_ Mr. Jenkins. Colonel Murray, that is precisely what it is de- 
signed to represent, is it not? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Air. Jenkins. The black marks indicating the times that Private 
Schine was away from the post ; is that correct ? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And you say that this is a revision of the first one 
and a correction of the one you first saw? 



1428 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Colonel Murray. Based on a thorough examination of all the 
material that was submitted to us by the authorities at Fort Dix. 

Mr. Jenkins. And the one now under examination before you, and, 
Colonel, in order to identify it may I ask you now, and ask the clerk 
to file it as an exhibit to your testimony so that it will be in the 
record officially, and it will be treated as filed, as I understand it, Mr. 
Chairman, as an exhibit to the testimony of Colonel Murray. 

Senator Mundt. It will be so filed and so marked. 

(The charts mentioned above were marked "Exhibits Nos. 22 and 
23" and will be found in the appendix, pp. 1472-1473.) 

Mr. Jenkins. The black marks on the chart before you represent 
the times that Private Schine was away from the post at Fort Dix. 
That is correct, is it not ? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. I will ask you whether or not those black marks 
represent the times that Mr. Schine was away from Fort Dix on 
normal passes. 

Colonel Murray. It includes all the time that he was away from 
Fort Dix, including a period subsequent to his induction, a period he 
spent in New York, the period when he had authorized absences as 
well as the unauthorized absences. I withdraw that. Insofar as I 
know, there were no unauthorized absences. 

Mr. Jenkins. Yes; there are certain normal passes to which every 
private is entitled, are there not ? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And in the chart now before us there are black marks 
on the dates upon which Private Schine enjoyed his normal passes. 
That is correct, is it not, Colonel ? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Then, in addition to the normal passes to which he 
and every other private are entitled, there are black marks on the dates 
upon which Private Schine was away on, shall we say, abnormal passes 
as a result of a request for him ; is that correct ? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Is it your understanding, Colonel, that on the dates 
other than the normal days for normal passes, when Private Schine 
was away, he was away as a result of leave given him by either the 
Secretary of the Army, Mr. Adams, or Colonel Ryan ? Is that your 
understanding ? 

Colonel Murray. In each instance, I believe that his absence from 
Fort Dix was probably covered by a pass given him by his company 
commander after it had been checked, when it was an abnormal 
request. 

Mr. Jenkins. As far as you know, Colonel Murray, and indeed it 
is your understanding, is it not, that he was never away at any time 
except by proper authorization from his superiors ? That is correct, 
is it not ? 

Colonel Murray. I do not know whether he was or was not, but 
I know that the chart did not indicate absences other than those which 
were covered by request of the committee or were routine absences of 
each trainee from his company, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Then apparently these absences embraced those to 
which he is normally entitled, plus those for which special dispensa- 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1429 

tion had been made as a result of requests by the committee staff. That 
is correct, is it not ? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Then, Colonel, the chart indicates that on the normal 
days when he and other privates are entitled to passes there are black 
marks covering those days ? That is correct, is it not ? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And the chart likewise contains black marks on the 
dates when he is away as a result of special dispensation given him as 
a result of a request by the committee staff. That is correct, isn't it? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir; I think we ought to say that the black 
marks were merely to portray graphically. It doesn't mean a black 
mark was made on Schine's record. 

Mr. Jenkins. No, but on the chart they are black. We are talking 
about the chart now — — 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Colonel Murray, and I am not attempting to cast 
any aspersions or reflections on you whatever. I am merely trying 
to develop the facts. You understand that. 

Now, Colonel Murray, that was prepared for exhibition here upon 
the hearing of these controversies, I take it ? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. It was understood that it would be furnished counsel 
for the committee, and the committee, and would be placed in the rec- 
ord here as a part of the Army's evidence? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir, and I believe it was. 

Mr. Jenkins. And it was this morning. 

Colonel Murray. No, sir. I think copies of each of these charts 
were presented to members of your staff by me sometime prior to this 
morning, about a week or so ago, I believe. 

Mr. Jenkins. Yes, sir. I understand. 

Now, Colonel, I will ask you — and I will ask Mr. Cohn down there 
if he will be so kind as to remove the chart to which we have been 
referring, and keep it there, will you, Mr. Cohn, where we may refer 
to it. 

Senator McCarthy. We have another easel here. 

Mr. Jenkins. That will be fine. 

I now show you another chart, Colonel, and as I read from this angle 
and at this distance, it says "Typical authorized absences" — will you 
please turn it around a little; that is better— "typical authorized 
absences of an average trainee undergoing training cycle while 
assigned to Company K, 47th Infantry Regiment, Fort Dix, N. J." 

You see that chart before us? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Who* prepared that chart, Colonel Murray ? 

Colonel Murray. So far as I know, the chart was prepared by the 
same Mr. Wood that I have mentioned before; that is, under his 
supervision. 

Mr. Jenkins. Under whose direction was that chart prepared? 

Colonel Murray. I gave the instructions to have a chart of this type 
prepared, as a comparison. 

Mr. Jenkins. Colonel, the chart as it appears now is not as it was 
when it left your office. [Laughter.] That is correct, isn't it ? 

40020°— 54— pt. 39 2 



1430 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Colonel Murray. No, sir, it is not. 

Mr. Jenkins. When it left your office and when it was put on ex- 
hibition here this morning — were you here this morning, Colonel 
Murray ? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, I was. 

Mr. Jenkins. Did you bring those charts with you ? 

Colonel Murray. I didn't carry them in here, but I placed them on 
the easel. 

Mr. Jenkins. When the chart to which we are now referring was 
put on the easel and on exhibition here before the committee and the 
TV audience, it had no black marks whatever on it, did it ? 

Colonel Murray. No, sir. I think this morning I placed both 
charts on the same easel with the G. David Schine chart on top. So 
far as I know, the other chart was not displayed to anyone until Senator 
McCarthy took it upon himself to remove the first chart. 

Senator McCarthy. I have one suggestion. I wonder if the colonel 
might not have another copy of this original before my artwork ap- 
peared on it. 

Colonel Murray. No, sir ; we do not. 

Mr. Jenkins. Colonel, when the one to which we are now referring 
was placed on the easel this morning, it had not then had the benefit 
of the handiwork of the Senator from Wisconsin; is that right? 

Colonel Murray. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And was wholly white and was devoid of any black 
marks whatever. That is correct, is it not ? 

Colonel Murray. No, sir. I think the chart that we initially pre- 
sented had certain black marks of a different type in the spaces toward 
the end of December and throughout January. Those I think you can 
still see through the overprint that the Senator and his staff placed 
on there. Those marks, I think, if you will examine them — and every- 
body who has received a copy of this this morning can read them, I am 
sure — indicates, as the title of the chart describes, that these are typical 
authorized absences of an average trainee in the company that Private 
Schine was assigned to. 

Mr. Jenkins. Very well. 

Now, Colonel, looking at the chart to which we are now referring, 
I notice that on Tuesday in the month of November Senator McCarthy 
or one of his aids has placed a black square or a black figure or black 
mark at that place. Is that correct ? 

Colonel Murray. He has placed a black mark there ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Normally, would the average, typical private at Fort 
Dix have had that day off ? 

Colonel Murray. I do not know for sure, sir. I believe that that was 
the day that Mr. Schine was inducted. So far as I recall about induc- 
tion procedures, they are packed up into a train and taken to the camp. 
I think the average private in his situation would have spent Tuesday 
night at Fort Dix. 

Mr. Jenkins. But would he have been off on Tuesday ? 

Colonel Murray. Prior to the hour of induction ? 

Mr. Jenkins. Yes. 

Colonel Murray. I presume he wouldj 

Mr. Jenkins. He would come in in the evening on Tuesday ; is that 
right? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1431 

Colonel Murray. I think they generally induct soldiers in the morn- 
ing, sir, but I am not sure of that. 

Mr. Jenkins. Colonel, do you know what the significance of the 
black mark is on the chart we are now examining, on Tuesday in 
November ? 

Colonel Murray. Senator McCarthy put the mark on there, sir. I 
don't know what the purpose of that mark is. 

Mr. Jenkins. Were you here when he put the mark on there ? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir ; I saw him put it on there. 

Mr. Jenkins. He put it on there while General Eyan was being 
examined ; did he not? 

Colonel Murray. I believe he did, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Do you recall that he put it on there with the consent 
and approval of General Eyan and as a result of General Eyan's 
statement that it was proper for Tuesday to be blacked out on the 
chart we are now examining? 

_ Colonel Murray. I don't recall what General Eyan said at that 
time, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You see all of the black marks on the present chart 
now, do you not ? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Colonel, if the present chart had been prepared just 
like the chart here of G. David Schine, using black marks on the 
present chart where they would bear the same significance to that 
chart as the black marks bear to the Schine chart, I will ask you if 
it isn't a fact that the chart as now marked upon by the Senator from 
Wisconsin fairly and accurately represents the record of the typical 
inductee at Fort Dix. 

Colonel Murray. No, sir ; it does not. 

Mr. Jenkins. In what respect is it different, Colonel Murray? 

Colonel Murray. On the 3d of November, sir, the average trainee 
would have gone to Fort Dix. Private Schine did not. On the 
23d of November I see no black mark on the Schine chart. Yet I 
believe there is one on the typical trainee's chart. 

On the 31st of December or the Christmas period, I think General 
Eyan has adequately explained that except in case of emergency the 
men of Schine's company would have been entitled to only 1 of those 
2 passes, so we could not have both sets of them blacked out, On the 
16th, at the last day where there is a black mark placed on the average 
trainee's chart, there would be no need for that because, so far as we 
know, the average trainee awaited until the end of the period, whereas 
Private Schine was allowed to leave somewhat earlier on that day. 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman 

Senator Munbt. Mr. Welch ? 

Mr. Welch. Colonel BeLieu has entered the room. I have spoken 
to him. In view of his condition, it would be pleasant if he could 
go on now. 

Senator Mundt. It will be perfectly all right, in conformity with 
our other agreement. 

You may step down and return, Colonel Murray. You will con- 
tinue to be sworn. 

Would you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the 
testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Colonel BeLieu. I do. 



1432 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION" 

TESTIMONY OF COL. KENNETH E. BeLIEU, UNITED STATES ARMY 

Senator Mundt. You may be seated. 

Mr. Prewitt, you may proceed with the question. 

I beg your pardon. Mr. Maner of Knoxville, Tenn., will be making 
his first appearance as a member of our committee counsel. We are 
glad to have you here, Charlie. You may proceed. 

Mr. Maner. Thank you, sir. 

Will you please, sir, state your full name, your rank, and your 
present assignment? 

Colonel BeLieu. Kenneth E. BeLieu, colonel, United States Army, 
and executive officer in the Office of the Secretary of the Army. 

Mr. Maner. For how long, Colonel BeLieu, have you been executive 
officer in the Secretary's Office ? 

Colonel BeLieu. I first joined the Secretary's Office in 1951, after 
I came back from Korea. I have been there since. I have been 
executive officer since about a month and a half before Mr. Pace left 

Mr. Maner. For the benefit of the record, Colonel BeLieu, when 
did you first enter the United States Army ? 

Colonel BeLieu. In 1937, I enlisted in Enlisted Reserve. I got a 
commission 

Mr. Maner. If you would, pull the mike a little closer or sit closer. 

Colonel BeLieu. I enlisted in the Enlisted Reserve in 1937. I was 
commissioned a second lieutenant of Infantry in 1937, about 6 months 
later. I entered active duty in 1945, and commissioned a Regular 
Army officer in 1946. I have been on duty since. 

Mr. Maner. In your capacity, Colonel BeLieu, as executive officer, 
did you have anything to do with the matters between the committee 
or the staff of the McCarthy committee and Mr. Adams and the 
Secretary himself ? 

Colonel BeLieu. Yes. My job is an administrative job mostly and 
a personal assistant to Mr. Stevens. I, of course, arranged many 
administrative details for various meetings that Senator McCarthy 
or Mr. Cohn or the Secretary had. I had only one personal experi- 
ence or opportunity to watch the committee in action. That was the 
Forth Monmouth trip, about October 21. 

Mr. Maner. Did you have anything to do with arranging that 
trip, making the physical arrangements ? 

Colonel BeLieu. Yes, sir. The Secretary had stated that he 
wanted to go to Monmouth, I think some days preceding that. He 
had not been there before. When he finally made his decision, I made 
the final arrangements for the airplane, the day preceding the trip. 
Of course, that would include the time of takeoff, who was to go, 
what the time and space factors were, who would meet us and so 
forth, and I did that. 

Mr. Maner. Were you present at the time the matter was dis- 
cussed as to the purpose of that trip, sir ? 

Colonel BeLieu. Well, I believe, if my recollection is correct, that 
there were two purposes. 

Mr. Maner. First, Colonel, if you will, answer my question. Were 
you present when those plans were discussed ? 

Colonel BeLieu. Part of the time, I believe I was, yes. 

Mr. Maner. As a result of that, you did learn what those purposes 
were ? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1433 

Colonel BeLieu. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Maner. Now, if you will, tell what the purposes of the trip 
were. 

Colonel BeLieu. Mr. Stevens had never been to Fort Monmouth 
since he was Secretary of the Army. That was one. He desired to 
go up there. As I understood, there was to be, as long as Senator 
McCarthy was having investigations of the Monmouth area, or activi- 
ties thereabouts, that it would seem like a good idea to the Secretary 
that they might discuss those activities on the spot. Those, I believe, 
were the two purposes. 

Mr. Maner. Now, getting down to the meat of that trip, was there 
an untoward incident which happened on that trip on the 20th of 
October? 

Colonel BeLieu. Yes, I think so. It has been recounted here before. 
The incident of the denial of entrance of Mr. Cohn and others of the 
party to the secret or classified laboratory. 

Mr. Maner. Were you present, sir, when that happened ? 

Colonel BeLieu. Yes. I was present most of the time. We left 
the main administrative building or what the headquarters building 
would probably be called, in a motorcade several automobiles, went 
around the area a little bit and ended up in front of this building. 

Mr. Maner. Tell, if you will, who was present when you arrived at 
the building. 

Colonel BeLieu. All right. Of course the Secretary of the Army 
was present, Senator McCarthy, Senator Smith of New Jersey, Rep- 
resentative Auchincloss, General Lawton was there, he commands the 
post, Gen. George Back, Chief Signal Officer, Mr. John Adams, my- 
self, certain of General Lawton's staff, of course, who would normally 
be there. I do not know all of them. 

Mr. Jones, of Senator Potter's office, and Mr. Harold Rainville, 
from Senator Dirkseivs office, and Mr. Cohn. I believe that was the 
group. 

Mr. Maner. What was this building at which you were to go into at 
that time ? 

Colonel BeLieu. It was a building which contained classified or 
radar apparatus. 

Mr. Maner. Were there certain people who entered that building 
and certain people who did not enter? 

Colonel BeLieu. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Maner. What was the reason for that, Colonel BeLieu? 

Colonel BeLieu. It could possibly be my fault, in a way, because I 
arranged the trip. I got a telephone call from Monmouth the day 
before asking if any special classification arrangements should be 
made, and I said no, none other than normal. We drove up in front 
of the building and the officer or, I believe it was a civilian, in charge 
of the building, but it may have been the security officer of the post — 
someone challenged the entrance of all members of the party to the 
inner reaches of the building. Mr. Stevens made a decision then that 
he would take in all those, of course, who had authorized military 
permits to go in or access to that type of classified information. 

In addition, he would also 

Mr. Maner. If you will pardon me, Colonel, I believe when you 
went into that establishment or went into Fort Monmouth itself, each 



1434 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

one was given a badge indicating the type of security clearence lie had, 
was he not? 

Colonel BeLiett. Yes, sir. Mr. Adams has testified to that. I didn't 
pay too much attention to that. I understand that there were two 
different types of badges given. I was given one. In fact, I paid no 
attention to it, because I have been on many military posts and it was 
a routine problem so far as I am concerned. I am not familiar with 
the details of those. But it probably was just a routine proposition, as 
far as entrance to buildings is concerned. "Would you like me to 
go on? 

Mr. Maner. Go right ahead. 

Colonel BeLieu. All right, sir. The security officer — whoever the 
individual was — challenged the right of entrance to this building, 
then was overruled by the Secretary as it pertained to the elected rep- 
resentatives of the Senate and Congress who were there. I started 
to stay out, and one of the officers recognized me and said, "Come on in, 
you are entitled to come in." 

I started in the door and got, I suppose maybe 10 or 15 feet. There 
was a hallway going into the inner sanctum of the building. I heard 
someone building up a storm outside, and I turned around and went 
out. Mr. Cohn and Mr. Adams were there, and Mr. Colin was quite 
irate at not being allowed entrance to the building. 

Mr. Maner. If you can, identify any other people who were present 
at that time on the outside. 

Colonel BeLieu. Well, I have since learned that Lieutenant Corr 
was near there, that the — let's see, what is his name — Mr. Slattery, 
I think he has charge of that particular portion of the laboratory at 
the present. I believe I met him for the first time then. 

Mr. Kainville and Mr. Jones were in the vicinity. I think they were 
across the road, however. This was rather a large group and they had 
detrucked or decarred, whatever you want to call it, in the echelon 
to the rear, and the smaller fry didn't catch up to the VIP's until a 
few minutes after they got to the headquarters. It was sort of a 
stragglers' line there. There was quite a considerable amount of Gen- 
eral Lawton's staff who probably would have been there, too, sir. 

Mr. Maker. So far as your memory would permit you to do so, 
Colonel, would you relate what was said by Mr. Cohn there in your 
presence ? 

Colonel BeLieu. Yes, sir. In effect he said, "This is it. This is war 
with the Army. I don't understand why you let Communists work in 
here and you won't let me in. I have been cleared for classified infor- 
mation. I have access to FBI files when I want them. You are doing 
this just to embarrass me. We will investigate heck out of you." 

Then he went on to say there was no need for him to stay there the 
remainder of that clay, but would take the investigation to New York. 
He wanted a car to get out of there and go back to New York. 

I made some remark about, "Well, this wasn't done to embarrass 
you. You know we have to have security regulations." 

He said, "Well, these people here just don't know how to do any- 
thing. They are doing it to embarrass me." He repeated that he was 
going to investigate the heck out of the Army, again. 

This conversation went on for, I would say, about 15 to 20 minutes, 
maybe more. The roadway across the front of the building, the road 
was crossed several times. It was not a stationary group. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1435 

That, in substance, is the gist of what went on. 

Mr. Maner. What was the condition of Mr. Cohn at that time as to 
being angry and disturbed on the one hand, or being calm on the other 
hand? 

Colonel BeLieuv Of course, I had never personally met Mr. Cohn 
before. I had talked with him on the phone, but I don't think I had 
ever seen him before. I thought he was very angry. I do not know 
his characteristic makeup, so maybe he wasn't, but I thought he was 
quite angry. I thought he was blowing his top, in fact, 

Mr. Maner. What was the effect of his conduct there on you, Colo- 
nel BeLieu, whether it disturbed you or not ? 

Colonel BeLieu. I was embarrassed first because he was a guest on 
a military post, and I had never had experience with congressional 
committees before. I didn't know whether he really was entitled to 
clearance or not. I didn't think he was. It had been my decision 
before, or I had recommended at Fort Monmouth that there be no 
unusual clearances given. 

The incident was surprising to me because I didn't expect it. 

I was also apprehensive because I knew that Mr. Adams had had 
some conversations with Mr. Cohn and Senator McCarthy about 
a press release. Personally, I had not liked the type of investigation 
or the publicity that was coming out about the Army, because I am 
proud of the Army, and I think we do a good job about routing Com- 
munists out. I was afraid in my own mind, from hearing people talk, 
that maybe Mr. Cohn would decide not to send that press release out. 

Other than that, I had no interest in the matter. 

Mr. Maner. What was the extreme importance of this press release 
that caused you to be disturbed ? 

Colonel BeLieu. It has been discussed here before, sir. Prior to the 
arrangement for the trip, I was in Mr. Stevens' office. I think prob- 
ably a day or so before — I am not sure of the date, maybe the 17th — 
w r hen Mr. Adams said that he was going to prepare something like that 
and he talked in general about how he would prepare it, if my memory 
serves me right. It was to the effect that the investigations at Fort 
Monmouth had served no particular useful purpose, they had brought 
no knowledge which we in the Army did not now already have, that 
the publicity was damaging from the national and international stand- 
point. We had had good relations with the committees, to the best of 
my knowledge, just being a bystander in most of this. There was no 
reason why the press release shouldn't go out, turning the responsi- 
bility over to the Army. That was the substance of it. 

On the airplane Mr. Adams had that press release with him. I 
knoAV he showed it to Senator McCarthy. I do not remember Mr. 
Cohn looking at it, but he may have. I think perhaps he did, because 
as we got off the plane Mr. Adams gave me the press release with 
some changes in it, and asked that I have them mimeographed up 
there. 

Of course, I used the Army chain of command, I gave them to 
Lieutenant Corr and he got them mimeographed. I did not read them. 

Those are the ones that are exhibits. 

Mr. Maner. Do you know who made those changes in the press 
release ? 

Colonel BeLeeu. They were made, to the best of my knowledge, 
between Mr. Adams and Mr. Cohn or maybe Senator McCarthy 



1436 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

on the plane. I did not pay any attention to that particular portion 
of it. 

Mr. Maker. Was there a second building inspected to which Mr. 
Colin was not admitted? 

Colonel BeLieu. Yes, I think there was, but I don't believe that 
created anything, because when they left the first building they went 
over to the next place, and everybody knew who could and who 
couldn't go in, so there was a good bit of griping, and that is all. 

I think Mr. Cohn was taken to another building to be shown some 
nonclassified data or information, but about that time I was getting 
concerned about getting the motorcade back and making sure every- 
body got in the proper cars, and my memory is a little hazy on that. 

Mr. Maner. What was the effect on Mr. Adams of Mr. Cohn's 
outburst ? 

Colonel BeLieu. I can't tell you what was in his mind. His ex- 
pression indicated that he didn't like it; that he felt uncomfortable. 
In fact, he was concerned about the press release, because he told me 
he was. Just generally an uncomfortable situation. He tried to 
placate Mr. Cohn or to ease his hurt feelings, I believe, as you would 
do to any guest in your house or at an installation where something 
unpleasant might have happened. 

Mr. Maner. Were you likewise present, Colonel BeLieu, at the 
luncheon on that date ? 

Colonel BeLieu. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Maner. Were you there when the Secretary made some state- 
ment in the nature of an apology? 

Colonel BeLieu. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Maner. Did you feel, sir, that an apology was in order? 

Colonel BeLieu. An apology is a matter of definition, I guess, for 
each type of individual. Mr. Stevens is a very gentlemanly type man. 
Had I been the man doing it, I might have been a little rougher on 
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Stevens was trying to make him feel at home, I 
think, and he wanted to let him know that it was not a personal insult 
or anything like that; that it was a matter of regulation, that it was 
his decision, that he made it, right or wrong, and he was sorry if he 
hurt his feelings. 

Some will take that as an apology ; others would not. As I say, I 
might have handled it a little differently. It is a matter of individual 
taste. 

Mr. Maner. As a member of this great Army of which you say 
you are proud and of which we are all proud, its proud tradition that 
the Secretary has talked about, did you feel it was becoming to the 
highest officer of that Army to make an apology to Mr. Cohn under 
the circumstances ? 

Colonel BeLieu. It is never unbecoming to be polite if that is your 
nature, and that is Mr. Stevens' nature, I think. 

Mr. Maner. You thought it was entirely proper on that occasion ? 

Colonel BeLieu. I think it was. I say I would not have done it 
that way, but then I am not Mr. Stevens, nor is he me. 

Mr. Maner. I believe that is all, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. You stated that you had gone down the hallway 
about 10 or 12 paces, and you heard the explosion back here and 
turned around and went back to talk to Mr. Cohn. Then Mr. Maner 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1437 

asked you who was present, and you said you had since learned that 
Lieutenant Corr was present, and Mr. Slattery, I believe. I am curi- 
ous to know why you put it that way, that you have since learned. It 
seems to me if you went back and saw them you learned it at that 
time. 

Colonel BeLieu. I met them there for the first time. I go lots of 
places with the Secretary and quite often am surrounded by hundreds 
of people. 

Senator Mundt. In other words, you saw those two gentlemen 
there ? 

Colonel BeLieu. I saw lots of people there that I met for the first 
time there. I have a bad memory on names sometimes. There were 
quite a few people around, including drivers of cars. I paid no par- 
ticular attention until later on. 

Senator Mundt. Did you find anybody else there whose names you 
knew at the time ? Did you recognize anybody at the time ? 

Colonel BeLieu. I know quite a few of the officers at Monmouth, 
sir, and at the laboratories, but most of them I met at the other build- 
ing. At this particular building I don't think I knew them person- 
ally. 

Senator Mundt. There are only two you can identify as having 
overheard the conversation in addition to yourself 

Colonel BeLieu. It may be that Mr. Rainville overheard it. I 
don't know, sir. I think he was across the road. It may be that Mr. 
Jones did. 

Senator Mundt. I think you stated that as you conversed with Mr. 
Colin you paced back and forth across the road, so they might have 
heard at least part of it. 

Colonel BeLieu. It could have been. The road is about 20 or 30 
feet wide, maybe less, and it was a reasonably good day outside. We 
didn't stand in front of the door. 

Senator Mundt. The conversation was a little loud, I suppose, if 
he was irate, it was fairly audible ? 

Colonel BeLieu. I imagine it was, although I don't remember his 
raising his voice too greatly. 

Senator Mundt. So possibly, as far as you know, the conversation 
could have been overheard by Lieutenant Corr, Mr. Slattery, Mr. 
Jones, and Mr. Rainville ? 

Colonel BeLieu. That is right, sir ; or anybody else in the vicinity, 
I imagine. 

Senator Mundt. They are the only names you can identify at this 
time ? 

Colonel BeLieu. Mr. Adams of course was there, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Did you stay with Mr. Cohn throughout the en- 
tourage of these security quarters ? 

Colonel BeLieu. I don't know that we rode back in the same car 
from this particular building in question. 

Senator Mundt. I mean while the party was in this particular 
building, did you stay with Mr. Cohn throughout that inspection ? 

Colonel BeLieu. Yes, sir, most of the time. I think I left him and 
went over to see the new building, the other building, but I don't think 
I remained there 

46620°— 54— pt. 89 8 



1438 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator Mundt. Did he remain irate and hostile throughout the 
period of the inspection or did your efforts to explain the situation 
placate him somewhat? 

Colonel BeLieu. Well, it was sort of a slow simmer, I think, sir. 

Senator Mundt. He came down from a hot boil to a slow simmer? 

Colonel BeLieu. Yes, sir. 

Senator Mundt. You made some progress. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman? 

Senator Mundt. Have you a point of order ? 

Senator McCarthy. No, I would be the last man to object to ques- 
tioning by the Chair. I am not sure that it would get me anywhere. 
But may I say that there is no question but what Mr. Cohn was 
irritated, that he was invited to Fort Monmouth and was denied 
entrance to this building. This has nothing to do with the Army's 
charge to get special consideration. I am willing to concede that 
Cohn was irritated, that Rainville was irritated, that Jones was irri- 
tated. Why we waste time on something that has nothing to do with 
the charges, I don't know. 

Senator Mundt. The point of order is overruled. 

I am leading up to this point. At some place in this conversation, 
you heard Mr. Cohn say something to the effect that, "This is war, 
we are going to investigate the heck out of the Army," et cetera. Was 
this at the stage that he was at what you call a hot boil or by the time 
he had gotten down to a slow simmer? 

Colonel BeLieu. I would say reasonably up to the top of the notch, 
sir. 

Senator Mundt. At the beginning or shortly after you went out 
there? 

Colonel BeLieu. As I say, this conversation lasted maybe 15 or 20 
minutes. Again, I do not know Mr. Cohn well. That is the first time. 
So it will remain for somebody else to judge how his temper operates. 

Senator Mundt. What was your reaction ? As an important officer 
in the Army, did you have a trepidation that something serious and 
dire was going to happen to the Army now ? 

Colonel BeLieu. I have always been of the opinion that the Ameri- 
can Army can take care of itself, but I don't like to see somebody take 
a hold of it and try to do something to it. 

Senator Mundt. You were not afraid, then, you simply were con- 
cerned over the alleged threat? 

Colonel BeLieu. That is right. 

Senator Mundt. Senator McClellan is absent on official business. 

Senator Dirksen? 

Senator Dirksen. Colonel BeLieu, I am inclined to agree with 
Senator McCarthy that this has no great or world-shaking bearing 
upon the issue that is before us, but certainly these explosive matters 
of minds have been testified to and ventilated pretty freely in this 
hearing. I suppose there is nothing lost by taking it just a little step 
further. Did you all leave Washington on the same plane with the 
exception of Senator Smith and Representative Auchincloss? 

Colonel BeLieu. That is right, sir. 

Senator Dirksen. And what time did you leave Washington? 

Colonel BeLieu. About 10 : 15, sir. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1439 

Senator Dirksen. And what was the plan about coming back to 
Washington ? 

Colonel BeLieu. We were to fly back on the same plane when we 
finished our inspection up there. 

Senator Dirksen. And when did you actually leave Fort Dix and 
come back? 

Colonel BeLieu. This is Fort Monmouth, sir. 

Senator Dirksen. I mean Fort Monmouth. 

Colonel BeLieu. I think we must have left the Fort — we got in 
Washington, I believe, about 4 : 15 in the afternoon. I would have 
to check that to be accurate. It is about an hour or hour and 10 
minute flight, and about a 20 minute drive from Fort Monmouth. 

Senator Dirksen. That means that you landed there roughly about 
11 or 11 : 30 and you left there probably about 3 o'clock. 

Colonel BeLieu. That is about right. 

Senator Dirksen. So you had substantially about Zy 2 hours ? 

Colonel BeLeeu. About 2y 2 or 3 hours. 

Senator Dirksen. Very well. What were the plans when you went 
up there ? What was to occupy the day ? 

Colonel BeLeeu. I didn't have anything to do with the particular 
plans for occupying the day up there. One, the Secretary had never 
inspected Fort Monmouth. There is a rather routine that you find 
yourself in when the Secretary of the Army goes on a post, especially 
if he hasn't been there. 

He is obviously met by the Commanding Officer and those of his 
select staff that he wants and they will endeavor to show him the post 
and, of course, in the best light. I do not know precisely what was in 
General Lawton's mind. 

I know that he had planned to explain to us what the purpose of 
that portion of the post was, and talked about the loyalty security 
problems or procedures, not specific problems, because that is what 
he did. After having arrived, being introduced, getting shaken down, 
so to speak, getting a slight orientation of what the post was about, 
and taking this mortorcade around, coming back and talking while 
we had lunch, and then Senator McCarthy and the Secretary having 
a press conference inside and outside, that took all the time. 

Senator Dirksen. Well, now, Colonel, I am not a very hard task- 
master insofar as my office is concerned, but I certainly am reluctant 
to let a staffman go and spend the day on a social jaunt unless I 
think he goes away on the public business and does something worth 
while and constructive. That was the reason for asking whether there 
was a plan. He had to leave my office early at 9 o'clock to get down 
to the airport and get back perhaps at half past 5 in the afternoon, 
so he was gone a whole day. 

That would be true of the rest of the members of the committee staff. 
And that leads up to this question : If you took a whole day and 
took a crowd of people up there who are busy, off of Capitol Hill, 
and suddenly you got up to a laboratory that harbored secret things 
and they could not get in, wouldn't you be irate, too ? Wouldn't you 
be mad ? Wouldn't you raise the devil ? 

Colonel BeLieu. Respectfully, sir, not if it weren't any of my 
business. 

Senator Dirksen. They make a lot of Roy Cohn's losing his temper 
and getting a little explosive and aggressive. I don't know what 



1440 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

attitude one of my assistants expressed up there. He had never 
told me about it except to say that he spent the day. I said, "What 
did you do?" and he says, "Well, we have accomplished exactly noth- 
ing, because when we got to the place where there were some things 
that probably would be interesting, we couldn't get in and the Army 
had not even made provision for the necessary clearances before we 
left Washington." 

Wouldn't you be mad under those circumstances? Frankly, the 
junior Senator from Illinois would have been mad as the devil about it. 

Colonel BeLieu. Frankly, sir, I didn't get the impression that 
Harold Kainville was very mad. He spent quite a bit of time with me. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair will have to interrupt. That is a vote, 
a rollcall vote, so we will recess for about 10 minutes so we can go over 
and vote and come back. 

(Brief recess.) 

Senator Mundt. The committee will come to order, please. 

I presume our guests in the main are the same folks who were here 
when we recessed, and that you are conversant with the committee 
rule against making any manifestations of approval or disapproval 
during the course of the hearings. 

As we recessed for the rollcall vote on the floor of the Senate, Sena- 
tor Dirksen was engaged in interrogating Colonel BeLieu. 

Senator Dirksen, you may continue. 

Senator Dirksen. Colonel, did we finish your answer before? I 
presume we did. 

Colonel BeLieu. I think maybe so. I think I was saying that I 
didn't think that Harold Kainville was too angry. I think he would 
have liked to go in there, of course. I was surprised when I found 
Mr. Kainville on the trip, because I hadn't been told until we got on 
the plane that he and Mr. Jones were going. However, they were 
welcome if they were from your office, sir. 

Senator Dirksen. Colonel, the only point I make about it is this, 
and it is in the spirit of the answer you made a little while ago to 
Mr. Maner's question about whether you would have made the apology 
that the Secretary made at the luncheon. It is, after all, a matter 
of personal viewpoint, and the Lord hasn't treated us all the same. 
Some people's temperament is a little more equable than others'. Some 
tempers are a little shorter than others. But the point I make is this : 
That here was a whole day devoted to a trip to Monmouth. There 
was a lovely luncheon, I suppose, and a motorcade. Then to come to 
a building and not be admitted, the question is, What does it do to a 
temperament that might be normally regarded as a little on the explo- 
sive side; and my answer simply is that if I had been in that predica- 
ment I am not so sure that perhaps my otherwise even temper — and 
I say that modestly — might have slipped its tether a little bit, and I 
might have used something besides mellifluous language. Maybe I 
would have become aggressive and used language that was tart and 



vigorous 



Isn't that about the most you could have said about Mr. Cohn's 
language? 

Colonel BeLieu. On the language subject, sir, when I entered the 
Army they had muleskinners. It wasn't quite up to that standard. 

I know you would not want to create the impression that this was 
a social gathering, sir. The lunch consisted of sandwiches and coffee 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1441 

brought in around a conference table, even as this. So it was business 
all the time we were there. If people were interested in what the 
laboratories did and how they handled their security procedures, then 
1 would assume that they would get something out of it, unless they 
already knew. The equipment in this building— I have seen much 
military radar and radio equipment, and frankly, you would have had 
to have a voltameter to find out what was in there. I don't think 
anybody could have looked at it who was a layman and either gained 
anything or lost anything from that particular portion. It would 
be up to Mr. Rainville's judgment as to what he got from the trip, 
as it would be to any individual who went. 

I think that is about the only conclusion I could draw from it. 

Senator Dirksen. Colonel, this is a wholly speculative question. 
If it had occurred to you at the time you were making these time 
and space arrangements, would you have gotten clearance for every- 
body in the party to enter that laboratory ? 

Colonel BeLieu. Not unless I was certain that they had a need to 
know that information,sir. That is a prime requisite of security classi- 
fication in military service. Even as a colonel in the Secretary of the 
Army's Office, I am not allowed to have information that I have no 
need to know. So I would have to ascertain beforehand. I did not 
have time. That is why I made the decision I made on the day preced- 
ing the trip. 

Senator Dieksex. There has been a good deal of speculation as to 
whether Mr. Cohn was entitled to enter that structure or not. Do you 
know whether he had high clearance on other occasions before this 
Monmouth trip? 

Colonel BeLieu. No, I do not know, sir. 

Senator Dirksex. My understanding is that he did have ; that there 
was made available to him a great many details concerning confi- 
dential matters because he did, you know, as a matter of fact, prosecute 
the Rosenberg case, and that required that he come into possession 
of secretive and confidential data. 

Colonel BeLieu. I don't doubt your description of that, sir. How- 
ever, a military person who is in charge of classified information or 
equipment cannot afford to take a chance, and I think in the interest 
of the country you always must make the choice against the person 
seeking entrance unless you specifically and precisely know. We did 
not know on this case and I know of no other decision that could have 
been made at that particular time. 

Senator Dirksex. Colonel  

Senator Mundt. The Chair is sorry. There is another rollcall vote 
on the floor of the Senate. 

Senator Dirksex. Let me finish one question, and then I shall have 
concluded with Colonel BeLieu. 

I am fully sensible of what you say, but I still make the point, 
Colonel, that a whole day was devoted to this, and suddenly when 
there comes that one piece of information they might have gotten or 
the satisfaction of going into a structure to see something that was 
quite worthwhile, the answer was that no plans had been made for 
their clearance, and what does that do to the average temper ? It may 
snap just a little, and occasion language that is pitched in a higher note 
than ordinary conversation. 



1442 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

I think if something in the nature of a statement that, "Well, this 
means an investigation from here on out," or "We are going to wreck 
the Army," or "This is the end of the Secretary's job" — that is in the 
great American manner and the great American tradition, because 
how we go in for those expressions that deal with the superlative. 

Frankly, I can't make too much out of that, on the basis of the testi- 
mony that we have had thus far. 

Colonel BeLieu. It is a little bit out of my line, sir, as an Army 
officer. Had I made that statement, I would have been reprimanded 
immediately. 

Senator Dirksen. Colonel, I was in the Army once, and I can un- 
derstand your dilemma. 

Senator Mundt. We will be in recess for about 10 minutes, I 
imagine. 

(Brief recess.) 

Senator Mundt. The committee will come back to order. 

Another Senate rollcall having been completed and I am sure our 
guests are the same as those that were in the audience before we re- 
cessed, we will proceed with the interrogation of Colonel BeLieu. 

Have you completed, Senator Dirksen? 

Senator Dirksen. Yes. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Jackson is out of the room, so we will go 
to Senator Symington first, if he has any questions. 

Senator Symington. Colonel, I was listening to one of my dis- 
tinguished colleagues. You were in no dilemma with respect to Fort 
Monmouth, were you ? 

Colonel BeLieu. Not that I know of, sir. 

Senator Symington. You were simply doing your duty as you saw 
it, is that right? 

Colonel BeLieu. That is right, sir. 

Senator Symington. I have been looking at you for some days until 
you got sick. How many battle records have you got there? 

Colonel BeLieu. Well, all through the European campaign, sir, 
all the campaigns from Normandy into Czechoslovakia. 

Senator Symington. Did you ever count them up, just for fun? 

Colonel BeLieu. I think there are 5 campaigns in Europe and 3 
in Korea, sir. 

Senator Symington. You say you enlisted in 1936 ? 

Colonel BeLieu. Seven, sir. 

Senator Symington. How old were you? 

Colonel BeLieu. Let's see. 

Senator Symington. I am beginning to believe you have got a little 
flu. 

Colonel BeLieu. I must have been about 22 or 3, sir. 

Senator Symington. I see you were wounded twice, is that right? 

Colonel BeLieu. Yes, sir; once in Normandy and once in Korea.; 

Senator Symington. And in Korea, you could have had permanent 
disability, is that right? 

Colonel BeLieu. Yes, sir. I lost my left leg below the knee. 

Senator Symington. I see you have the Silver Star, is that correct, 
for gallantry in action? 

Colonel BeLieu. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. You work in the Secretary's Office ? 

Colonel BeLieu. Yes, sir. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1443 

Senator Symington. Counsel asked if he made a mistake in being 
overpolite at one point. What was your mistake at that point? 

Colonel BeLieu. I don't think he made a mistake, sir. He is a 
courteous gentleman. You do things in politeness when a man is a 
guest in your house. He was a guest on an Army post. 

Senator Symington. Will you agree with me that one of the most 
important things in the world to prevent the growth of communism 
all over the world, Communist aggression, is the morale of the United 
States Army ? 

Colonel BeLieu. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. Have you in every action that you have ever 
taken, always had that in mind? 

Colonel BeLieu. I hope so, sir. 

Senator Symington. I have said before, and I say again, as long as 
so many people in this country have relatives in the Army, that in my 
opinion along with other witnesses here, you are a great credit to the 
country. 

No further comments or questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Potter? 

Senator Potter. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Senator McClellan, I jumped over you. You were 
coming back from the rollcall. I will pick you up now. 

Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, I am very sorry I have had to 
be absent from the committee meetings for several hours. I had other 
duties that had to be attended to, and I regret that I haven't heard the 
testimony of the witness. 

I do not want to be repetitious, but as I understand, Colonel BeLieu, 
you have testified to certain statements that Mr. Colin made on the 
occasion of that visit to Fort Monmouth. Is that correct ? 

Colonel BeLieu. That is correct, sir. 

Senator McClellan. I will not ask you to repeat the statements. I 
can read those in the record. If the record shows what has heretofore 
been testified to, and I assume you have confirmed these charges and 
allegations that have been made, what I want to know is if you per- 
sonally heard the statements. 

Colonel BeLieu. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. You heard them ? 

Colonel BeLieu. I heard the statements I recounted here today, sir. 

Senator McClellan. I will not ask you to repeat them, but I will 
ask you this : You saw the expression of the author of the statements 
at the time he made them ? 

Colonel BeLieu. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. You were able to evaluate and analyze his atti- 
tude at that time, his demeanor as well as the verbal expressions that 
you heard ? 

Colonel BeLieu. Right, sir. 

Senator McClellan. Did you immediately or soon afterward re- 
port them to the Secretary of the Army? 

Colonel BeLieu. Yes, sir ; I did. 

Senator McClellan. Did you report them to him there on that 
occasion before he left the Dost ? 

jL 

Colonel BeLieu. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. You are the one who heard them. You are 
the one who had the best opportunity to evaluate them. Did you 



1444 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

regard those statements as a threat against the Secretary and against 
the Army? 

Colonel BeLieu. Yes, sir ; I did at the time. 

Senator McClellan. I beg your pardon ? 

Colonel BeLieu. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. Did you regard them as an effort to intimi- 
date the Secretary of the Army ? 

Colonel BeLieu. I don't think I did then, sir, particularly, because 
I don't see how a man can intimidate the Secretary of the United 
States Army. 

Senator McClellan. Well, an attempt to do so ? 

CoLonel BeLieu. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. You did regard them as an attempt to do so? 

Colonel BeLieu. I think I do ; yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. May I inquire now if you so took them at 
that time ? Did you realize at that time — were you evaluating them 
at the time as a threat or an attempt to influence the action, the de- 
cision of the Secretary of the Army ? 

Colonel BeLieu. I think at the time they actually occurred, I took 
them as evidence of distemper; and in the light of what happened 
with the so-called press release that had been prepared before hand — 
and I don't know too much about that — it seemed to me quite obvious, 
I at least felt if that incident had not occurred the press release would 
probably have been issued. That is my opinion, sir. 

Senator McClellan. I didn't hear your testimony. Was any state- 
ment made by Mr. Cohn at the time that he made these other remarks 
with reference to the press release, that it would not be issued or he 
would see that it was not issued ? 

Colonel BeLieu. No, sir, he did not, to the best of my recollection, 
make a statement of that type. 

Senator McClellan. I didn't hear your testimony. Did he state 
to you then on that occasion that he did have access to FBI files? 

Colonel BeLieu. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. Who else heard those statements ? In whose 
presence were they made? 

Colonel BeLieu. Mr. John Adams was there. He has testified 
here. I do not know that all people present heard all portions of the 
statement, because this was not a stationary group. It moved around. 

Senator McClellan. I understand you have already gone into that 
detail, and I don't want to be repetitious. 

That is all, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dworshak? 

Senator Dworshak. No questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Jackson? 

Senator Jackson. Colonel BeLieu, who else was denied access to 
the laboratory on that day ? 

Colonel BeLieu. The three principal individuals who were denied 
access were Mr. Cohn, Mr. Harold Rainville, and Mr. Jones, of Sena- 
tor Potter's office. I would assume that there would be other people 
on the Monmouth post who had no need to know that information, 
but I paid no attention. 

Senator Jackson. I mean of the immediate group. 

Colonel BeLieu. Of our group, those I think are the only three who 
were denied entrance. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1445 

Senator Jackson. Did any of them complain? 

Colonel BeLieu. Mr. Rainville and Mr. Jones — they expressed dis- 
pleasure that they weren't, but they didn't complain vocally — or 
loudly, rather. I went over and talked to them to see what their atti- 
tude was. 

Senator Jackson. Did they use any comparable language to that 
which you have testified to as an outburst? 

Colonel BeLieu. No, sir. 

Senator Jackson. How long did this incident last? 

Colonel BeLieu. I would say 15 to 20 minutes, to the best of my 
judgment, sir. 

Senator Jackson. Were the statements repetitive? 

Colonel BeLieu. Somewhat; yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson. That is all. 

Senator Muxdt. Mr. "Welch or Mr. St. Clair? 

Mr. Welch. Nothing. 

Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy or Mr. Colm ? 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, if this were in my opinion an 
issue in this case I would have questions. Apparently there is nothing 
here which has to do with any improper influence or anything of the 
kind. This witness has testified that Mr. Cohn was angry because he 
was invited to Fort Monmouth to inspect the facilities, facilities where 
security risks and Communists were working, and when he got to the 
door he was denied the right of going in. I can also testify that Mr. 
Colin was angry. Mr. Rainville was, Mr. Jones was. I would be 
also. I think this is a vast waste of time. Therefore, I am not going 
to spend any more on that question with this witness. Xo questions. 

Senator Mundt. No questions from you, Mr. Cohn ? 

Mr. Cohn. No, sir. 

Senator Mundt. You have concluded, Mr. Maner? 

Mr. Maner. Nothing further. 

Senator Mundt. Anybody else ? 

Colonel, you are dismissed, and thank you very much. 

We will recall Colonel Murray. You are still under oath, and we 
will resume with you where we left off. I believe you were being 
interrogated by our counsel, Mr. Jenkins, and Mr. Jenkins may resume. 

TESTIMONY OF COL. JOHN F. T. MURRAY— Resumed 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Cohn, will you please act as assistant again and 
put the two charts on the easel? 

Colonel Murray, I am going to refer to the first chart as the Private 
Schine chart, to the second chart as the typical trainee chart. How is 
that? 

Colonel Murray. Fine, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You have testified, Colonel, with respect to the two 
charts and to the effect that the black marks on the Schine chart were 
on the original as shown to you and that some revision was made 
thereorl by reason of a revision in certain information and figures 
given to you. That is correct, is it not ? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You say you do not know who is responsible for 
using the particular type of insignia that we find on this chart, to wit, 
the black marks? 

46620°— 54— pt. £9 4 



1:4MG SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Colonel Murray. I don't know who selected that pattern initially, 
sir, but I accepted it when I saw it, and it seemed to graphically por- 
tray what we wanted to portray. 

Mr. Jenkins. It is designed to be a record of David Schine at Dix 
during November, December, and January, and particularly with 
reference to his absences. Is that right, Colonel Murray? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir; substantially that is what the title on 
it says. 

Mr. Jenkins. Colonel Murray, these black marks indicate either 
the times he was off at normal times or the times that he was off with 
the consent and permission of his commanding officer. Is there any- 
thing whatever with respect to these black marks that is a reflection 
on Schine or on his record as a soldier at Fort Dix? 

Colonel Murray. No, sir. I believe the title merely states the rec- 
ord of his absences and telephone messages received by the command- 
ing general. 

Mr. Jenkins. Sometimes we refer to a man or his child in school as 
having a black mark opposite his name, it being a term of stigma. 
This isn't intended as that at all, is it, Colonel Murray? 

Colonel Murray. No, sir ; so far as I know, it is not. 

Mr. Jenkins. Colonel Murray, picking up the average inductee's 
chart, the original had no black marks on it. I will ask you if I have 
in my hand now and if you have in your hand what we would call a 
immature of the average inductee's chart. 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. It has no black marks whatever, that is, insofar as 
these squares or rectangles are concerned. That is correct, isn't it, 
Colonel Murray ? 

Colonel Murrat. Not exactly, Mr. Jenkins. I believe that there are 
black marks. The only distinction is that the lettering on this chart 2 
is entirely in black ink, whereas on chart 1 we have some lettering in 
white ink, because we had lettering on days when there were no passes 
as well as on days when there were passes. 

Mr. Jenkins. Well, by No. 1, do you mean the Schine chart? 

Colonel Murray. I believe you called that No. 1 just a minute ago, 
sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Very well. I am sure I asked you to file the Schine 
chart as an exhibit to your testimony. I now ask you to file No. 2, 
the typical inductee's chart, as an exhibit, if that has not already been 
done. 

Colonel, be that as it may, with respect to the No. 2 chart, the typi- 
cal inductee's chart, there were certain days when a typical inductee 
is entitled to be away on leave as matter of right; that is correct, isn't 
it? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. And the typical inductee's chart which you now hold 
before you does not have a blackout or a black mark on the days when 
he would be entitled to be away as a matter of course ? Is that correct 
or not ? 

Colonel Murray. As a graphic presentation, Mr. Jenkins, I really 
believe you have to read the chart as well as look at it. 

Mr. Jenkins. I know, but answering my specific question, I am not 
arguing with you about it 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1-147 

Colonel Murray. I pee black murks on there that are of a different 
nature than on the other chart. 

Mr. Jexkixs. All right. Let's put it this way, Colonel Murray : 
if the same standard has been used in the preparation of both of these 
charts, the same pen, or the same chalk, or whatever was used in making 
the figures and the coloring, assuming that the same standard was 
used, would not chart No. 2 have a different appearance and would 
it not have more black marks on it than it now has, as I hold the 
miniature of it in my hand '. 

Colonel Murray. On the days that the individual got a pass, we 
could have used the same type of black mark as on the Schine chart. 

Mr. Jenkins. Colonel, I don't believe you answered my question. 
You can answer that, I think, "Yes" or "No." Now assuming that the 
same draftsman prepared both of these charts, that he prepared both 
of them by the same standard and under the direction of the same man, 
using the same ink, the same chalk, the same insignia, to designate the 
record of Schine's absence from Dix, and the record of the absences of 
the average inductee from Dix, isn't it a fact that chart No. 2, reflecting 
the record of the average inductee at Dix, would have a different ap- 
pearance to the chart as it was originally presented to the committee 
this morning ? Yes or no. 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jexkixs. All right. Very well. And, Colonel, it would have 
more splotches of black, shall we say. It would certainly, you say, 
have a different appearance, and would have more black paint or chalk 
indicated on it than the one that is originally presented here today, that 
is correct, isn't it ? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jexkixs. Now, Colonel Murray, this other one question. As I 
say, I am not indicating that there was any sinister motive on the part 
of anybody in using the color of black instead of red. I just know that 
sometimes a child comes home with a bad grade and you say, "You 
have got a black mark opposite your name." You understand that. 

Colonel, can you tell us who directed the type of chart to be prepared 
that was prepared in both instances? You say you didn't do it, it 
was not your brainchild. "VYhose brainchild was it ? 

Colonel Murray. On the first chart — I say we inherited a chart that 
was somewhat like this one, and we maintained the same pattern. 

Mr. Jexkixs. Do you know from whom you inherited it? I am 
trying to find out the originator of it. \Ye are trying to run it down. 

Colonel Murray. Yes. I picked it up in the Secretary's office, I 
believe, when I started gathering a number of materials together, when 
I was assigned to work in his office in preparation for this case. That 
chart was there among them. 

Mr. Jexkixs. The chart of Schine, do we understand? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, the Schine chart. Not the same type and 
not the same one, but one that looked very much like this one. It 
had already been prepared. That would be prior to the 27th of 
March, which was the day that I — or sometime around there — I first 
saw it, on the second chart. I don't know who prepared the first one 
of my own knowledge. 

Mr. Jexkixs. That is all I am trying to get at. You follow the 
same pattern in the second chart. We understand that. 



1448 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Colonel Murray. On the second one, when we were getting ready, 
close to the day of preparation, we were told by members of your staff 
that you wanted to let the Fort Dix people tell their story. I believe 
you saw the earlier chart that we had, and copies of it that we had. 
We did not have at that time a typical chart, but it began to seem 
apparent that maybe we ought to have such a chart in itself. The 
Schine chart, representing a comparison with nothing, would prob- 
ably not be as graphic to show the amount of time that he was 
away from the post as if we had something to compare it with. 

So, on short notice, Ave were told to get the Fort Dix people. I di- 
rected one of the officers that was working with me, Captain Folawn, 
who is sitting in the second row here now, to get a typical chart pre- 
pared from the materials that we had furnished, from Dix. and he was 
the one that actually dealt with Mr. Wood, the supervisor of the draft- 
ing section. I have never seen Mr. Wood. I wouldn't recognize him 
if I saw him. The chart was prepared in substantially the way that 
you see it, from the information that we have. That was one of the 
days when we brought General Ryan and everybody else over here. 
I recall looking at it and I said, "Well, this chart looks a little different 
than the other one," and the answer that I got then was, "Well, we 
had to have it in a hurry, and if we had to do it exactly the way the 
other one was done, we would have to wait for the black ink to dry 
before we could put white ink on top of it." 

The amount of time that we had to get it over, to get ready, with the 
Dix people, didn't allow us that time, and I said, "Well, go ahead 
and we will do the best we can so that we will have a chart that is 
representative of the typical absenses of a private at Dix." 

Mr. Jenkins. I believe, Colonel, that at the time members of my 
staff and I visited in the Pentagon for the purpose of preparing the 
Army's case and prior to the opening of these hearings, we were shown 
the Schine chart, perhaps not in its present formula in the form that 
it was in just prior to the revision ; is that correct? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. That was the one 

Mr. Jenkins. And at that time, Colonel Murray, as I recall, I do 
not believe you had chart No. 2, or the typical chart. 

Colonel Murray. No, sir; we did not. 

Mr. Jenkins. Now, Colonel Murray, this other question : 

You have given us the history of the present Schine chart. You 
still say that you saw its counterpart or one similar to it in the Office 
of the Secretary, and with the coloring on it, the black coloring on 
it, representing the times that Schine was away either normally or by 
special dispensation. 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Can you enlighten us as to who designed the original 
chart, so that if all parties are not satisfied we might question him 
about his choice of colors? 

Colonel Murray. I can only say what was reported to me, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Well, suppose you tell us that. 

Colonel Murray. I believe you already heard that the events, so- 
called events, were prepared by a Mr. Brown. I understood that con- 
currently with the preparation of those events, work began on this 
chart. I had heard that it was prepared under the supervision of a 
Mr. Coughlin. I have never met Mr. Coughlin. I wouldn't know him 
if I saw him. But that was the information that I received. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1449 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, I did not get that name, I am 
sorry. 

Colonel Murray. Coughlin. As I understand it is C-o-u-g-h-l-i-n. 

Senator McCarthy. Do we have the first name, Mr. Counsel ? 

Colonel Murray. I don't know his first name. 

Mr. Jenkins. Is he in the Pentagon now ? 

Colonel Murray. I don't know if he is, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Is he an Army officer ? 

Colonel Murray. No, sir ; he is not an Army officer. 

Mr. Jenkins. A civilian employee of the Army ? 

Colonel Murray. I believe he is a civilian employee, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Senator Potter suggests that perhaps he is in the 
Department of Defense. Can you enlighten us on that subject ? 

Colonel Murray. I have heard that he is, sir. I don't know for sure. 

Mr. Jenkins. Anyway, you heard that he is the author of the origi- 
nal Schine chart? 

Colonel Murray. I had heard that he had prepared it and when 
we received it it had been in his office at one time. 

Mr. Jenkins. Colonel Murray, who is the author of the original 
No. 2 typical inductee chart as presented here this morning before it 
underwent a going-over by Senator McCarthy? 

Colonel Murray. Well, insofar as giving the instructions to some- 
one to have a chart prepared on the absences of a typical trainee at 
Fort Dix. I am the author, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. You are the author ? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Well, Colonel, did it not occur to you that perhaps 
it would have led to less confusion had you used the same insignia or 
coloring on the typical inductee chart as was used on the Schine chart ? 

Colonel Murray. It has occurred to me since this morning ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Jenkins. Very well. 

I think that is all I care to ask Colonel Murray. 

Senator Mundt. I think, Colonel, you stated that the reason why 
you prepared the second chart, which we now call the typical trainee 
chart, was to have some standard or basis for comparison with the 
G. David Schine chart ; that the G. David Schine chart standing by 
itself, you said, comparable with nothing, would not be very clear-cut 
or informative to the committee. So you decided you would prepare 
this second chart. 

I think you have now conceded in that statement the answer to the 
question I Vms about to ask you, but I will ask it again to make sure : 
Don't you really feel it would have been more informative and less 
deceptive to the committee, when you are preparing charts to be com- 
pared, if you had used comparable symbols instead of two sets of 
sj'mbols such as you did use ? 

Colonel Murray. I didn't know that anyone would be deceived by 
it inasmuch as we have a very accurate description on it which has 
been testified to by General Ryan as being the absences of Schine 
and the absences of a typical trainee. 

Senator Mundt. I will ask the reporter please to read my question, 
because I am sure the answer was not responsive. 

(Whereupon the question was read by the reporter as above 
recorded.) 



1450 SPECTAL INVESTIGATION" 

Senator Mundt. It would have avoided all the necessity of calling 
you in and having you compare it. We would have understood it 
right from the very beginning, wouldn't we ? 

Colonel Murray. Yes; and I think it would have been more infor- 
mative. But so far as deceptive, I had not felt that it had deceived. 

Senator Mundt. I am not accusing you of attempting to deceive. 
Very frankly, you did deceive me, because this printing is very small 
and you sit up here under these lights and it is difficult to see. I was 
a little bit astounded when I heard the testimony, and I have had 
time now to compare them. I find that on the typical trainee chart 
there are 13 spots that should be blacked out; there are 23 spots that 
should be blacked out on the G. David Schine chart. If you presented 
them blacked out equally, we would have seen there were 10 more here 
than there are here [indicating]. I thought there were a great many 
more. 

I am using only the months of November and December, because 
quite obviously on your January chart you didn't mark out anything 
in your typical inductee chart. It was left entirely blank. But the 
2 that you did base your comparisons on, 1 has 13 and 1 has 23. That 
would have been clear and easy to find out. 

Colonel Murray. May I add something, sir? 

Senator Mundt. You surely may. 

Colonel Murray. I do not believe that we presented the so-called 
typical chart this morning. I know that 

Senator Mundt. Where did it come from? Stop right there. 

Colonel Murray. I brought these charts, copies of them, to the 
committee's staff about a week or so ago. I mean we presented on 
the blackboard this morning the G. David Schine chart. 

Senator Mundt. Where did the other big white chart come from ? 

Colonel Murray. It was behind it, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Who brought it here ? 

Colonel Murray. I did, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Did you present it ? 

Colonel Murray. I don't know. I believe it was first uncovered 
when Senator McCarthy uncovered it. We had issued, however, the 
smaller charts 

Senator Mundt. The two that I now hold before me? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. I distributed those this morning. 

Senator Mundt. Correct. 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Those are the two I am talking about. They are 
identical in nature with those two on which Senator McCarthy put 
the black blocks that you neglected to put on them ; is that right ? 

Colonel Murray. I felt there was an inference that I was trying to 
deceive in there 

Senator Mundt. No. I am going strictly by the two charts you have 
here. I am not saying you were trying to deceive me. You did de- 
ceive me very definitely, because of the fine print here, and I had no 
reason to question but what all of these black spots compared with the 
white spots until Senator McCarthy brought the presentation up on 
the easel. I think we now agree, anyhow, if you had presented the 
charts each with the same kind of symbols, you would have made a 
clear-cut presentation to begin with that there were 23 in the one in- 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1451 

stance for November and December, and only two on the other. Let's 
see if I have that correct. December and January. 

Now, I would like to call your attention to another, I am sure, 
inadvertent deception, but a very genuine one. That is, just take your 
original chart which you said was prepared by Mr. Coughlin. Look- 
ing at this chart, I assume, of course, that all of these black spots were 
some kind of black marks on the record of G. David Schine or at 
least were indicative of the same kind of special treatment or special 
passes, but I find of your 23 black spots in December and January, 
7 of them contain in 1 language or another the fact that these passes 
were per company policy, so there again you have compared 16 passes 
which were granted, special passes, apparently, with 7 passes which 
were just regular and issued in routine. So you have not only confused 
me, but you have inadvertently and unintentionally deceived me and, 
I think, the other members of the committee, because this original 
chart makes no differentiation whatsoever between the perfectly 
routine and ordinary passes that Schine received, and those he re- 
ceived, according to the testimony of General Ryan, because of calls 
emanating from members of this committee staff. 

Don't you feel if you were going to present the original chart that 
Mr. Coughlin prepared, you should have differentiated between the 
usual and extraordinary passes and those which were just ordinarily 
routine ? 

Colonel Murray. No, sir; I don't agree with you on that latter 
thing because each of these charts has a legend which is descriptive. 
I think if the first chart had been presented by itself, the legend as 
labeled at the top would accurately portray what the chart was at- 
tempting to display. 

Senator Mundt. If the chart is intended to make clear what the 
legend says, it doesn't ordinarily require a legend to clarify the chart. 
You have to read the fine print here to know what you are talking 
r.bout in these black spots, because they are all the same. If you had 
black blocks for the extraordinary passes and some kind of shaded 
block for the ordinary passes, it would have been a clearcut and forth- 
right chart, but ^ou have to read each individual little legend, which 
it is very difficult up here to find the time to do, in order to know 
what the chart actually conveys. 

Colonel Murray. This is a complicated picture to portray, Senator, 
and that is why we have the lettering on there, to read it. 

Senator Mundt. That is my complaint, that your black ink makes 
it more complicated and confusing and conveys an altogether er- 
roneous impression as you pick up the chart and look at it. It cer- 
tainly did to me. The facts speak for themselves. If you have time 
to read them, then you have about what General Ryan testified to. 

I don't say this was deliberate. I think it was unfortunate. It 
was inadvertent. I don't think that you designedly intended to con- 
fuse the committee, but you have certainly confronted us with a sit- 
uation that requires a lot of explanation. Now I think we under- 
stand what is intended to be conveyed by these deceptive charts. I 
have no other questions for the time being. 
Senator McClellan? 

Senator McClellan. Colonel Murray, if there is confusion, let's 
try to clear it up. Let's take the month of November and take the 
second chart or the one that is typical of what the ordinary private 



1452 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

gets. If you head used the same symbols that have been suggested to 
you by others who have questioned you, what could you put on the 
month of November? 

Colonel Murray. I believe it would remain exactly as it is, sir. 

Senator McClellan. It would remain as it is? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. In other words, for the month of November 
there would be no change, no matter what kind of characters you used 
to indicate a difference. It would still be black, would it? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. So the private who was inducted on the 3d 
of November received no pass during that month, is that right? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. That is pretty plain so far as that month is 
concerned, is it ? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. There is nothing deceptive about that ? 

Colonel Murray. No, sir. 

Senator McClellan. All right. Let's take the month of December, 
begin with 1st day of the month and go down to the 19th. Did the 
other privates in the camp — Were they entitled to any passes during 
that time ? 

Colonel Murray. No, sir. 

Senator McClellan. They got no passes during that time, is that 
right ? 

Colonel Murray. The typical private got none, sir. 

Senator McClellan. All right. We will call them typical privates. 
What do you mean by typical privates? 

Colonel Murray. I just didn't want to give an answer that would 
indicate there was no one on pass during that month. 

Senator McClellan. Let's take a typical private inducted in that 
post on the 3d day of November. We will call them all typical 
except one. Is that what you are trying to say ? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. Who is the one that is not typical ? 

Colonel Murray. G. David Schine, sir. 

Senator McClellan. All right, then, we are talking about all the 
others that were inducted on the 3d of November. If you used any 
symbol that has been suggested to you since you have been cross- 
examined here, what symbol or what mark would you place on any 
date from the first of December down to the 19th of December, that 
is not now there? 

Colonel Murray. None, sir. 

Senator McClellan. None ? 

Colonel Murray. No, sir. 

Senator McClellan. So, down to the 19th of December, then, this 
map is not deceptive, is that correct? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. Using every suggestion that has been made to 
you, there is nothing that would have belonged on any date from the 
3d day of November down to the 18th, including the 18th day of 
December? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1453 

Senator McClellan. They would still remain as they are? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. So the only confusion arises from the 19th 
day of December, when you point out on one map all in black with 
white lettering and on the other chart you simply show it in white 
with black lettering, is that the only difference? 

Colonel Murray. And black border, sir. 

Senator McClellan. Sir? 

Colonel Murray. Surrounded by the black border. 

Senator McClellan. And surrounded by a black border? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. So whatever confusion there is, if there is 
any, we must confine it from the 19th day of December down to the 
16th day of January ? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. There is no confusion with the rest of them ? 

Colonel Murray. That is right, sir. 

Senator McClellan. That is all. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dirksen? 

Senator Dirksen. No questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Jackson ? 

Senator Jackson. Colonel Murray, as I tabulate the black marks on 
the first chart, the G. David Schine chart, there are 43 black notations. 
Did you count them up? 

Colonel Murray. No, sir ; I didn't. 

Senator Jackson. All told ? 

Colonel Murray. I haven't counted them. I can now, sir. 

Senator Jackson. And 13 on the second chart. There have been 
some other figures referred to. 

Senator Mundt. I simply went through. You are referring to my 
comment, I think. I took only the last 2 months because of the fact 
that General Eyan testified there should be changes in November. I 
didn't know what the truth should be about that. 

Senator Jackson. I have no further questions. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Potter? 

Senator Potter. Colonel Murray, did I understand you to say that 
you made this one report, the second chart of the typical inductee, you 
made it in a hurry and presented it to the committee? Was that 

Colonel Murray. In my position, I have been charged with getting 
the Army witnesses ready when Mr. Jenkins wants therm General 
Ryan made three trips to Washington to testify on this subject before 
he was called as a witness. That isn't his fault and I don't think it is 
mine. I think it is just the way the hearings have been going. But 
when he came here for the first time, I had to have this ready. That 
was when the pressure was on. Now, I took it then and we had it 
here at that time and I have been bringing it in and out of this com- 
mittee room every day since the first day that we were ready to take 
General Ryan. We were under pressure when I prepared it, yes, sir. 
It came as'a thought, It wasn't an original thought with me. There 
were 2 or 3 of us talking and we decided that we ought to have a yard- 
stick to compare it with and I ordered another chart. 

Senator Potter. Do I understand you that the reason there is a 
difference in the symbols, that one is black writing on white and the 



1454 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

other is white on black, is the fact that on this second chart yon had 
made the symbol black, it would have taken longer to dry, in order to 
go over with white ink. Is that your testimony ? 
' Colonel Murray. That is the way I remember it. _ I asked that the 
chart be prepared, to just make another one exactly like this one, with 
the passes of the average trainee. I gave those instructions to Cap- 
tain Folawn, and as I recollect, he came back to me and he said, "We 
won't be able to have it ready in the time we need it." 

I believe we had only one night to work on it. He said, "We won't 
have it ready if you want it that way." 

I said, "We'll, do the best you can. We have to have it ready." 

I have given him an order like that, and it has usually been carried 
out. 

Senator Potter. And apparently, Colonel, you recognized at the 
time that there was a difference, that on one the symbols were black, 
with white writing, and on the other it was white with black writing. 
Did you recognize that at the time ? 

Colonel Murray. I remember they told me they couldn't make it 
exactly alike. I said, "They should be as near alike as possible. Do 
the best you can." 

I didn't see the chart again until it was prepared and I had to bring 
it over here that first morning. 

Senator Potter. That is all, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Symington? 

Senator Symington. Colonel Murray, I would like to pursue a little 
with you the conversations we have had with some of the other officers 
here. When did vou enter the Army ? 

Colonel Murray. On the 1st of July 1937, sir. 

Senator Symington. 1987? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. How old were you? 

Colonel Murray. I was 18, sir. 

Senator Symington. I see you have quite a few battle stars there 
and the Legion of Merit, is that correct ? 

Colonel Murray. I have three battle stars for the European cam- 
paign, sir. 

Senator Symington. I thought you had a fourth below. I have 
already said I think that you didn't use a black color on Private 
Schine and a white color for— rather, it is the other way around. But 
the word "deceit" has come into this picture, and I can't go for that. 
What your testimony is, as I understand it, you only produced one 
large chart as an exhibit here, is that correct ? 

Colonel Murray. No, sir. I brought both of the charts in. 

Senator Symington. Only one chart was here ? 

Colonel Murray. The Schine chart was on top of the other chart. 
Both of them were here and I brought them in, sir. 

Senator Symington. You gave the committee members copies of 
both charts, did you not? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir ; I did. 

Senator Symington. And if anybody was deceived by not reading 
both charts, their deception would be largely eliminated if they had 
read the charts, is that the way you see it ? 

Colonel Murray. In my opinion, yes, sir. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1455 

Senator Symington. Because all the facts were on both charts, 
although the colors were unfortunate? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. If both charts were produced to the television 
audience, then the colors themselves might have been deceptive? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. But that was not your intention, as you put 
them in, is that correct ? 

Colonel Murray. No, sir. 

Senator Symington. I just want to get that straight. I think you 
can make a mistake, but a mistake and deceit, especially from an officer 
in the Army, are two different things. I noticed today — did you 
happen to see in the paper that there are a lot of vacancies for West 
Point \ 

Colonel Murray. I have seen reports on that, yes, sir. 

Senator Symington. No more questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. I just hope you won't include South Dakota among 
those. We have an oversupply of applications from South Dakota. 

Senator Symington. I am interested in the morale of the Army. I 
would like to say if we hammer the Army, that regardless of the State 
we are going to get less applications for the Army. 

Senator Mundt. The morale is very good in South Dakota. We 
have a great surplus of applications. 

Senator Dworshak? 

Mr. Welch or Mr. St. Clair? 

Mr. Welch. Nothing. 

Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy or Mr. Colin? 

Mr. Cghn. Mr. Chairman, the Senator went out to get some ma- 
terial. -He will be right back. I might ask 1 or 2 questions in the 
meantime. 

Colonel Murray, I believe you told us that if we were to read the 
legend on these two charts here, there could be no deception. Is that 
right, sir? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Coiin. Isn't it a fact that the legend itself on the Schine chart 
is deceptive? 

Colonel Murray. Not in my opinion, sir. 

Mr. Cohn. Well, sir, if I might direct your attention to the Schine 
chart, it says: 

Record of absences and messages, and telephone messages, to the commanding 
general, Ninth Infantry Division, while assigned to Fort Dix, N. J. 

I will then direct your attention to black marks for the days, 
Tuesday the 3d, Wednesday the 4th, Thursday the 5th, Friday the 
8th, Saturday the 7th, Sunday the 8th, and Monday the 9th, and ask 
you whether or not on those days Schine was absent from Fort Dix. 

Colonel Murray. On the legend, it says : 

While assigned to Fort Dix, N. J., for the period November 3, 1953, to January 
16, 1954. 

Any other private inducted at that time left New York on the 3d of 
November and went to Fort Dix. Private Schine was absent from 
Fort Dix at that time. 

Mr. Cohn. Was he assigned to Fort Dix, according to your testi- 
mony, on November 3 ? 



145G SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Colonel Murray. I do not know whether he was assigned to Fort 
Dix at that date or at a later time, but I do believe that the informa- 
tion that was prepared has been accurately checked, and I think 
represents where he should have been, assignment at Fort Dix. 

Mr. Cohn. Sir, is it not a fact that he was not assigned to Fort Dix, 
and is it not so indicated on your chart, until the 10th of November, 
and from the 3d to the 10th he was not absent from Fort Dix but was 
on temporary duty attached to First Army Headquarters in New 
York? 

Colonel Murray. Temporary duty is a manner of assigning a 
person, accounting for him while he is at a particular place, so he 
can get quarters and rations and be paid for that period. I am not 
a competent witness to determine just how Schine was — what the 
arrangements were at the time Schine was inducted. I don't know, sir. 

Mr. Cohn. Without laboring the point, Colonel, would you agree 
with me that if Schine were not assigned to Fort Dix until the 10th 
of November, that the legend on this chart which has been submitted 
is inaccurate ? 

Colonel Murray. No ; I would not. 

Mr. Cohn. You think even if he were not assigned to Fort Dix 
prior to November 10, you should have black marks for 7 days, indi- 
cating absence from Fort Dix, when he was not in fact assigned there? 

Colonel Murray. It is a chart showing his absences from the date 
of induction. Whereas one assigned as a typical trainee would have 
gone direct to Dix, Schine did not. I believe this does accurately 
portray that fact. 

Mr. Cohn. The thing that puzzles me is that it doesn't say what 
you say. It says "while assigned to Fort Dix, N. J." Isn't it a fact 
that he was not assigned to Fort Dix, N. J.? Can't you tell that 
right from your own chart ? 

Colonel Murray. I can read the chart, and it says while assigned to 
Fort Dix for the period of November 3, 1953, to January 16, 1954. 

Mr. Cohn. There is no point in our going back and forth, but I 
suggest if you look at the date November 10, and if you check the rec- 
ords, you would find no assignment to Fort Dix was made until the 
10th of November, and it is hardly likely that he could have been 
absent from a base to which he had not been assigned for the prior 
7 days. 

Colonel Murray. I think on a technical little point like that, I 
think the chart is still accurate, because I don't know how this was 
originally prepared. I have testified to that. But we have three 
lines. We see Private G. David Schine on the first line. Then we 
have a two-line block which says, "Record of absences and telephone 
messages to the commanding general, 9th Infantry Division, while 
assigned to Fort Dix, N. J." Then we have a third method of describ- 
ing the thing, "for the period." Whether they intended to have that 
"for the period" connected with Fort Dix, the prior line, or not, I 
don't know. It would seem unlikely, because of the space there. I 
may be wrong, but that is my feeling about it now. 

Senator McCarthy. Colonel, could I ask you one or two questions 
on this ? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. If I understood you correctly, you stated that 
the reason for using the black marks on the Schine chart and the 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1457 

white spaces on the average trainee's chart was because it would take 
the ink so long to dry that you would have difficulty in using the same 
type of symbols on both, or did I misunderstand you ? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. _ I said, as best I can recall, that when 
we had to get the chart up initially, we had a very short time schedule, 
and I said, "prepare a chart very much like Schine's for the record of 
a typical inductee." I gave those instructions, and I recall 

Senator McCarthy. Try and stick to the question. Did you use 
the pure white sheet for the average inductee, and the black for 
Schine because of length of time it takes the ink to dry? 

Colonel Murray. That was the reason, I guess, that it was used, sir. 
I didn't make that decision myself. 

Senator McCarthy. It was because of the length of time it would 
take the ink to dry ? 

Colonel Murray. So I had been told. 

Senator McCarthy. I have behind me the young man who has been 
doing much drafting for us. He tells me it takes about 10 minutes for 
the ink to dry. If ft takes 10 minutes for the ink to dry, it would seem 
that that is hardly a valid excuse for this type of what I call a phony 
chart. You may have a different description of it. 

Do you know it takes only about 10 minutes for the ink to dry ? 

Colonel Murray. No, sir ; I don't know how long it would take the 
ink to dry. 

Senator McCarthy. Let me ask you this : As far as the information 
is concerned, information for the people in the Pentagon, you didn't 
need a chart. The chart was prepared for, we will call it, pictorial 
purposes or television, so you could portray this to the public or to 
the committee, is that right, not for your own information ? 

Colonel Murray. I believe that was part of the reason; yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Colonel, it would seem that normally you 
would use the same type of symbol to show the absence of the average 
trainee as you would use to show the absence of Schine if you want this 
merely for its pictorial benefit. Do you think it was purely accidental 
that you have a pure white sheet for the average trainee and this 
blacked-up sheet for Schine? 

Colonel Murray. I don't believe it is a pure white sheet, nor was 
it when it was presented, and it wasn't accidental. It was probably a 
deliberate attempt on the part of the man who did it to get my in- 
structions complied with in the time that I gave him. 

Senator McCarthy. Can you tell us 

Colonel Murray. He didn't know what it was going to be used for, 
sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Colonel, this is rather important. You and 
I may differ as to the motive. To me it looks like the most deliberate 
attempt that I have seen here for some time. I can see no reason why 
you wouldn't black out the average trainee's absences the same as you 
blacked out Schine's. I assume you perhaps were not responsible. 
Most of our difficulty so far has not been with men in uniform, but 
with the civilian politicians over in the Pentagon. I find that you say 
that a Mr. Coughlin and a Mr. Wood were in charge of this. Are 
they uniformed men or are they civilians? 



1453 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Colonel Murray. I have never seen either of them, sir. Mr. Wood 
is a draftsman. He was below me in the chain, you might say. He 
took instructions that I gave. 

Mr. Coughlin is a civilian whom I have never seen, but I understand 
he was above me, and I accepted something that he, I had heard, 
prepared. 

Senator McCarthy. Colonel, you personally are not responsible, 
are you — let me finish the question — you personally are not responsi- 
ble, are you, for using a different type of symbol on the Schine chart 
from the chart of the average trainee? 

Colonel Murray. I believe I am more responsible than any other 
living person, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. All right, then, good. Let's get this down. 
When you brought these over, you personally had ordered, is this 
correct, the white chart for the average trainee, the black chart for 
Schine ? 

Colonel Murray. I brought them over in that fashion; yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. How many copies of this were prepared and 
handed out? 

Colonel Murray. One original of each of the large charts, and 200 
prints of each of the small charts. 

Senator McCarthy. And handed to the press? 

Colonel Murray. I inquired about that during the lunch hour, and 
1 understand that the cost — sir? The cost of the 400 prints was 50 
cents apiece, or $200; and they estimate the cost of the large charts 
as $6.75 each, or $13.50, or a total expenditure of $213.50. 

Senator Mundt. The Senator's time has expired. 

I think, Colonel, you misunderstood the question. The question 
was "handed to the press." You were talking about the cost. 

Colonel Murray. I did misunderstand. I thought he said "cost." 

Senator Mundt. You may answer that question, if you care to, but 
the Senator's time has expired. I thought you misunderstood the 
question. 

Colonel Murray. I will answer the question. 

I did hand those out to the press, because I have learned a little by 
experience here. The first day when we entered an exhibit, I had the 
press asking me for copies. We only had two or three, and I had to 
go back and get 150 of them run off on request. I have tried to meet 
the needs of the committee and the press. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Counsel, you may examine the witness. 

Mr. Jenkins. I have no further questions. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair has none at this time. 

Senator McClellan? 

Senator McClellan. No questions. 

Senator Mundt. Any of the Senators to my right? To my left? 

Mr. Welch or Mr. St. Clair? 

Mr. St. Clair. 

Mr. St. Clair. I have only one question : I would like to call Colonel 
Murray's attention to the service record of the private in question and 
ask him if it is not a fact that G. David Schine was assigned to Fort 
Dix on a more or less permanent basis on November 3, 1953. 

Colonel Murray. Yes. I see an entry in a form I recognize as a 
service record form which states: 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1459 

Company A, 1299 ASU, reception station, Fort Dix, N. J., assigned from No- 
vember 3, 1953 to November 22, 1953. 

Mr. St. Clair. So it follows that the legend at the top of the so- 
called Schine chart is accurate, is that correct ? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Are you through, Mr. St. Clair? 

Senator McCarthy or Mr. Colin. 

Senator McCarthy. Colonel, you just brought up a point which 
interests me very much. You say that on this one chart which you 
admit is not for the information of anyone in the Department, not 
for the information of the committee because all the testimony cover- 
ing this could be presented orally, you spend $200 of taxpayers' 
money for publicity for the military in order to put out these phony 
charts. Who authorized you, Colonel, to spend that $200 ? I know 
$200 may not seem like too much when we are spending billions, but 
if we add the $200's up we finally get to the billions. Who authorized 
you to do that ? 

Colonel Murray. The $200 is a lot of money, sir, and I recognize it 
as well as you do. I have a certain general authority in the Pentagon 
working where I am in the handling of this case, and I felt that this 
was a need. It was apparent from the testimony from the exhibits 
that we had, from the way that things had been going heretofore, and 
I authorized the expenditure on my own. 

Senator McCarthy. How much more have you authorized, Colonel, 
for public relations or for publicity ? 

Colonel Murray. I can't say that I have ever authorized anything 
for public relations or publicity, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. How many public relations and information 
men have you had working on this? 

Colonel Murray. I have no public relations or information men 
working under me, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. How many does Mr. Stevens, Mr. Adams or 
anyone connected with this show have in the way of publicity men? 

Colonel Murray. I do not know, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you know if they have any? 

Colonel Murray. I presume — there is a chief of information in the 
Pentagon who has a function, but I do not know the typical scope of 
his duties ; no sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Colonel, let me ask you this : It so happens I 
know a bit about this, I think. Your background indicates, as far 
as I know, that you are a pretty good soldier. I couldn't think of 
anything to criticize about you as a soldier. I think you are taking 
a rap here today. Isn't it true, Colonel, that this was not thought up 
by you, that there are upwards of 50 publicity men, research men, 
public relations men, call them what you may, working over in the 
Pentagon every day on this sort of thing, and this was not your idea ? 
Isn't that correct ? 

Colonel Murray. I have conceded that I didn't design it or prepare 
it. On the second chart, the one that you now point to, I asked to have 
a second chart prepared very much like the first one, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Didn't you get the first chart ? 

Colonel Murray. Isn't that it there, sir ? 

Senator McCiiarty. I thought you said there was one chart before 
this? 



1460 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Colonel Murray. There was an earlier chart, yes, sir. I do not 
know where it is now. 

Senator McCarthy. I don't suppose it is lost, is it? 

Colonel Murray. It may still be available, sir. I am not sure of 
that. We will check. 

Senator McCarthy. Would you find out and bring it along tomor- 
row morning? 

Colonel Murray. If it is available; yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Who made the final decision to have a dif- 
ferent symbol on the Schine chart from the other chart? 

Colonel Murray. I can only guess that a draftsman charged with 
the responsibility of 

Senator McCarthy. Couldn't you find out? 

Colonel Murray. Well, I tried to call Mr. Jones, Mr. Wood, the 
draftsman, and he is on active duty right now. He is up in New York 
somewhere. I called his office at lunch time. I didn't feel it worth- 
whole to talk to anyone else on such a point. He can be made avail- 
able if the committee requests him, I presume. 

Senator McCarthy. You may not consider it important to talk 
to someone on the point of what I consider a deliberate deception. 
While you— not you, but somebody orders the Inspector General to 
make an investigation to find out whether Schine walked in front of a 
jeep or behind a jeep, or whether he got his shoes shined downtown 
or not, I would think this is rather important. Do you think you 
could find out who made the decision to put out these phony charts ? 

Mr. Welch. Just a moment. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch? 

Mr. Welch. I object to the use of the words "phony charts." 

Senator McCarthy. I am sure you do. 

Senator Mundt. The objection will be recorded in the record. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you discuss this matter with Mr. Welch 
before the charts were brought down here ? 

Colonel Murray. Which matter, sir? 

Senator McCarthy. Did you show these charts to Mr. Welch? 

Colonel Murray. I believe Mr. Welch saw them ; yes, sir ; but I am 
not sure of that. 

Senator McCarthy. And he didn't disapprove of them? 

Colonel Murray. I don't know, sir, whether he did or not. I don't 
think the point was ever raised as to any question about it. Mr. Welch 
is a very busy man. I only handle a few of the minor jobs on this 
thing. 

Senator McCarthy. How many people does Mr. Welch have at 
his disposal over in the Pentagon right now ? 

Colonel Murray. I am working as his military assistant, you might 
say. 

Senator McCarthy. Eight. 

Colonel Murray. I have three other officers from the Judge Advo- 
cate General's Corps that assist me. I think you have seen them all 
in here. I have a captain in the AG who keeps track of our records, 
stays back there, and I believe we have five stenographers. 

Senator McCarthy. Aside from that staff, what do you have? 
Researchers ? Public relations, publicity men, draftsmen ? 

Colonel Murray. No; I don't give any orders to anybody except 
the group I have described, sir. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1461 

Senator McCarthy. I understand that, but, Colonel, could you 
give me some estimate of the number of people who are working on 
this project? You say Mr. Welch is a very busy man. I wonder 
how many people are handling his work over there for him. 

Colonel Murray. Well, I have listed the group that are handling 
the work that is necessary for the case. I must say that I don't want 
to overemphasize my part. I think Mr. Welch prepares most of 
his own case himself, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. I don't think you understood the question. 
How many people, according to your knowledge, are working now in 
connection with Mr. Welch, Mr. Stevens, Mr. Adams, with you, or 
anyone else in the military in connection with these hearings? 

Colonel Murray. Well, I think about 10 or 12, as I have just out- 
lined to yon, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Ten or twelve working full time? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir ; and overtime, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Colonel, you say that the black chart, and I 
have to point to the — you say that the black chart, and I have to point, 
Colonel, to this photostat, because I have worked on this one; you 
say that the black chart represents the phone calls, absences, et cetera, 
of the typical draftee: is that right? 

Colonel Murray. No, sir. I believe you will have to read the 
legend to understand what the chart represents. _ It is the typical 
authorized absences. There is no attempt made to indicate any phone 
calls or anything of that type on it. 

Senator'McCAimiY. All right. 

Now, on the Schine report, you indicate phone calls, right ? 

Colonel Murray. Phone calls to the commanding general, and each 
one is described by the person's name who called. 

Senator McCarthy. Colonel, I don't want to get you into testimony 
that will give you difficulty. The phone calls are other than to the 
commanding general. If you will just consult your chart 

Colonel Murray. I think we will concede the commanding general 
or members of his staff ; yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Or other individuals having nothing to do 
with Fort Dix, phone calls to individuals — let me refer you, for 
example, to January 18. I beg your pardon, that is January 9. 

Colonel Murray. I see the call you are referring to. The call from 
Carr to Adams. 

That was also put on there ; yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. So as far as the average trainee, you didn't do 
any monitoring of his phone calls, so you don't know how many phone 
calls he has made ; is that right? 

Colonel Murray. These are not calls from the trainee, sir. They 
are calls into the post. 

Senator McCarthy. To the trainee? 

Colonel Murray. No, they are just calls. I don't think there are 
any calls represented on here as coming to Private Schine, so I don't 
think there would be any need to indicate the calls to a typical trainee. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you mean, then, that Private Schine is the 
only private at Fort Dix about whom phone calls have been made, 
about whom phone calls have been made to the commanding general 
or anyone else ? 



1462 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Colonel Murray. No, sir ; I don't mean to convey that. I don't know 
that fact. 

Senator McCarthy. Then isn't this rather deceptive? I have put 
on some X's here, I have just put them on sort of hit or miss for the 
phone calls, other contacts. Would you say that the number of X's 
we have on this would represent fairly the phone calls of the 
average trainee outside of Schine? 

Colonel Murray. No, sir. I don't know what the X's would 
represent. 

Senator McCarthy. In other words, you do not know how many 
phone calls the average trainee would get ? 

Colonel Murray. No, sir ; I don't. 

Senator McCarthy. And this is left completely — this completely 
accurate drafting job, then, Colonel, is left completely blank insofar 
as any phone calls to the average trainee is concerned, but you write 
out in detail the phone calls that Private Schine had. 

Now, let me ask you this question : Was there some rule, was there 
some regulation, did someone decide at some time that there would be 
monitoring or a checking of the phone calls of this one private and no 
other private ? 

Colonel Murray. No, sir ; I don't believe there was any of that, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you have records, Colonel, of the phone 
calls of all the other privates you have at Fort Dix? 

Colonel Murray. No, sir ; I don't believe we do, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Now let me ask you this question, if I may, 
Colonel : You told Senator McClellan that prior to December 10 there 
should be no change in the chart. Let me read to you Tuesday, Decem- 
ber 10, blacked out — I am not sure if you can see this, Colonel, or not — 
a blacked-out section on Schine's chart, Tuesday, December 10 

Colonel Murray. November 10, I believe, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. November 10, you are right. Keported in New 
York for transfer to Fort Dix, assigned to reception center. Any 
other draftee who was drafted also would have to report either in 
New York, San Francisco, Milwaukee, Wis., Chicago, wherever it hap- 
pened to be, for transfer to Fort Dix or wherever it should be, so if 
that is a black mark against Schine, the fact that he reported for duty, 
we should black this out on this chart, should we not ? 

Colonel Murray. No, sir. I don't think so. I think that on the 
3d, when Schine came in, he was inducted, and he immediately left 
the induction station. On the 10th, when the rest of the men that 
were inducted the same day he was, were getting up at 5:45 for 
reveille, he didn't report in to the induction station in New York until 
11 : 45. 

Senator Mundt. The Senator's time has expired. 

Counsel, have you any questions? 

Mr. Jenkins. I pass, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mlndt. Have any Senators to my left any questions? 

Senator McClellan. Only one question, Mr. Chairman. 

I am looking at these charts, and I don't see any calls listed here to 
Private Schine or from Private Schine to anyone else; is that correct? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir ; that is right. 

Senator McClellan. There are calls, as I understand them, as 
you have listed them here— these are calls by someone to the com- 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1463 

manding general or members of his staff with respect to Private 
Schine; is that right? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Senator McClellan. That is all. 

Senator Mundt. Any other Senators to my left? 

Senator Dworshak. Mr. Chairman? 

Senator Mundt. Senator Dworshak. 

Senator Dworshak. It seems to me we talking a lot about charts, 
and the facts become more confusing all the time. Colonel, if you 
have had a lot to do with the preparation of these charts, presumably 
you have possession of the material from which the charts were pre- 
pared ; is that right? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir; we do. 

Senator Dworshak. Can you tell us first, how many individual 
passes the typical trainee would receive during the first 8 weeks or 
10 weeks of his training period, and then how many specific or indi- 
vidual passes Private Schine had during the comparable time? 
Then let's see if we can't get some factual information on the record 
instead of talking constantly about charts. 

Colonel Murray. The typical trainee would have had three passes 
during the 8 weeks of training, as indicated on what is called chart 2. 
May I have the second half of your question again, sir? 

Senator Dworshak. How many specific or individual passes on a 
comparable basis did Private Schine receive during the same period? 

Colonel Murray. Let me total them up here, sir, and we will have 
the answer. 

Senator Symington. I think the Chair knows the figure. 

Senator Mundt. General Ryan testified this morning that there 
were 16. 

Senator Symington. And three or four is average? 

Senator Mundt. That is correct. 

Senator Dworshak. So that is the record, notwithstanding what 
the charts may show; is that correct, Mr. Chairman? 

Senator Mundt. That is correct. General Ryan testified to that 
detail this morning. 

Senator Jackson ? 

Senator Jackson. Mr. Chairman, just to clarify this telephone call 
matter on the chart, may I just read from page 3-193 of the hearing 
this morning my question to General Ryan. It is very brief : 

Senator Jackson. How many calls do you get for the average private to you? 

General Ryan. I don't get any. This is the only case that I have ever had 
a request to relay a call. 

Senator Jackson. As far as these phone calls on the chart are concerned, they 
relate specifically to the unusual nature of the calls to you or to your aides? 

General Ryan. Yes, sir. 

Senator Jackson. That is all. 

Senator Mundt. Is that all, Senator Jackson? 

Senator Symington, you said you had a question. 

Senator Symington. I have one question. 

Colonel Murray, somebody mentioned taking a rap. Are you taking 
a rap for anybody here ? 

Colonel Murray. I don't believe so, sir. 

Senator Symington. Are you taking full responsibility for these 
charts? 



1464 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Colonel Murray. I take responsibility for my part in them, yes, sir, 
as full as it can be. I have told the story the way it happened. 

Senator Symington. No further questions. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch or Mr. St. Clair? 

Senator McCarthy or Mr. Colin? 

Senator McCarthy. Colonel, I very much dislike this job of ques- 
tioning you in so much detail. I frankly think that you are being 
a good officer, obeying someone's orders. I don't think you are respon- 
sible for these phony charts. You made the statement that all privates 
except Schine were typical privates. Therefore, we can assume he is 
the only untypical private. 

I have a new story here in regard to baseball players, and again 
I like that game pretty much. I won't quote the name of the indi- 
vidual. You perhaps will recognize him from Fort Dix. [Beading :] 

The Blank case probably will be heard first. This pitcher, still in the service, 
was assigned to Fort Dix and classified as a light vehicle driver and utility 
man, the investigator said. They reported he had been relieved from duty at 
noon and excused from K. P. and guard duty to play on the post baseball team. 

I have nothing against baseball, but it seems that hunting out 
Communists may be just as important. I am sure it would be just 
as important to you. It certainly is to me. So when you said in 
answer to Senator McClellan's question, or someone's question, that 
all were typical except Schine, you certainly wouldn't consider the 
baseball player relieved from duty at noon and relieved of all K. P. 
duty, as typical, would you ? 

Colonel Murray. No, sir; may I add a little to what I said on that? 

Senator McCarthy. Certainly. 

Colonel Murray. I think I tried to convey the impression that I 
couldn't state for a fact that no other private at Fort Dix during that 
period got a phone call or that no other private was called up to the 
commanding general, that no other private had an extra pass. We 
say a typical, average trainee. I think the baseball player to which 
you referred is probably not a typical, average trainee. 

Senator McCarthy. How about the phone center at Fort Dix, Colo- 
nel ? How many phones do you have ? 

Colonel Murray. I have only been at Fort Dix twice or three times, 
sir, and I don't know the geography of the post very well. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you have any idea how many phones are 
down at the phone center ? 

Colonel Murray. No, sir; I wouldn't. 

Senator McCarthy. Would you say it is over 100 ? 

Colonel Murray. I could only guess, sir. I don't know. 

Senator McCarthy. You have been at various posts. I am curious 
to know how you can keep an accurate count of Schine's calls. I 
understand it is proposed to bring in all these calls to all the people 
he has phoned. I just wonder how this monitoring of these calls 

Mr. Jenkins. If you will allow me, Senator, I will enlighten you 
on that subject and we will save a lot of time. 

Senator McCarthy. O. K. 

Mr. Jenkins. The records of the telephone company itself will be 
produced, and they are not records that were made up by the authori- 
ties at Fort Dix, but records of the telephone company. They are not 
monitored. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1465 

Senator McCarthy. Do I understand — may I ask the Chair a ques- 
tion ? This is very interesting. Do I understand that the phone calls 
that this private made 

Mr. Jenkins. Long-distance calls. 

Senator McCarthy. Long-distance calls to personal friends, to 
young lady X or Y, we will say, are going to be brought in here and 
made public ? Is that part of this case ? 

Mr. Jenkins. Senator, I was merely enlightening you on the sub- 
ject of how we ascertained the number of long-distance calls that 
Private Schine made out of Fort Dix, and I say to you, sir, that those 
records were obtained from the telephone company. When and if an 
attempt is made to introduce those records, Mr. Chairman, then, of 
course, the Senator has a perfect right to make an objection. 

Senator McCarthy. May I ask this for information ? 

Senator Mundt. I think you also have heard the counsel say the 
calls were not monitored, merely the number. 

Senator McCarthy. May I ask this information? Is it proposed 
now by the Chair to put into the record the phone calls that a private 
in the Army made to all of his friends? Does that have anything to 
do with an attempt to get, or this charge that he was attempting to 
get, special privileges? 

I would like to know that because if that is to be done, there are 
certain actions I ought to take. I am not Mr. Schine's lawyer. He 
served this committee, though for about a year. If there is to be 
an attempt to get phone calls that he made to various ladies or various 
people who were giving him information — and I am sure he was 
talking to individuals who were giving him information — then I must 
know that sufficiently ahead of time so I can take the proper action, 
Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jenkins. Mr. Chairman, may I further in all fairness en- 
lighten Senator McCarthy with respect to his present inquiry, and I 
■will be happy to do so, Senator. 

It is proposed, Mr. Chairman, to prove that during the stay of 
Private Schine at Fort Dix, an 8-week period, he put in 253 long- 
distance telephone calls, that some of those long-distance telephone 
calls, quite a number of them to be fair, were put in to members of 
the McCarthy committee, that some of the calls apparently were 
purely social calls. It is the theory of counsel for the committee 
that that is relevant, that that is a circumstance shedding light upon 
the question of whether or not, first of all, an attempt was made to 
secure preferential treatment for Private Schine, it being my theory 
that if unusual liberties were taken by Private Schine while at Fort 
Dix, that perhaps is some indication that those unusual liberties were 
taken by him by reason of the fact that he had the backing of this 
powerful investigating committee. 

Senator McCarthy. Let me ask counsel this : Do you propose to 
put into the record the names of the people whom Mr. Schine called? 
As far as his making long-distance calls, I assume he made a great 
number. 

Mr. Jenkins. Senator McCarthy, we propose to introduce those 
records. It will take a matter of 1 or 2 minutes to present those 
records to the committee for its inspection and for your inspection, 
and then you may, if you desire, bring out the names of the parties 
to whom those calls were made. I do not propose to do it. 



1466 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator McCarthy. In other words, Mr. Jenkins, I assume that 
would be your position. I think you have been eminently fair through- 
out these proceedings. As someone said, if you have been at all unfair, 
you have been equally unfair to both sides. That is all right. I think 
you have been eminently fair. Then, I understand, then, that you do 
not propose to identify the people called by this private in the Army, 
other than identifying the members of the committee whom he called, 
which is proper? 

Mr. Jenkins. The records themselves, Senator McCarthy, do 
identify the parties called, but I do not propose to explore that sub- 
ject and take the time. It would take an unnecessarily long time 
to do so. It will be a public record. I do not think it shows any 
particular light upon the issues. As I stated, a great number of those 
calls are to members of your committee. Some are purely social, 
apparently. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, I think we shouldn't waste 
any more time on this. 

Senator Mundt. I suggest that you proceed with the interrogation 
of the officer. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, may I say that so far as phone 
calls made to members of my staff are concerned, I would have no 
objection to their being put in. I would like to talk to the Chair and 
counsel, and all the Senators, before they pick up all the telephone 
calls of a private, and put them into evidence. 

Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman? 

Senator Mundt. Have you a point of order, Senator McClellan? 

Senator McClellan. I didn't know anybody had a point of order 
around here. I haven't discovered one yet. I want to make this ob- 
servation. I didn't know the telephone calls were available or were 
going to be offered in evidence. But if this private was doing such 
important work for the committee, and he has got a number of calls 
there that would reflect that he is serving this committee and trying to 
wind up his unfinished business, I don't see why there should be any 
objection on the part of counsel to admit them. I just think if there 
is anything to it, it probably will help you instead of hurt you. 

Senator McCarthy. Senator, I have taken the position all along — 
Senator, I have taken the position all along that if an informant who 
is giving information, calls, his name should not be made public. 
But, No. 2, any calls to the members of the committee, good 

Senator McClellan. If he wants to swear he was making a call to 
uncover a Communist, good, let him swear it. I think it would be 
helpful. 

Senator McCarthy. Senator, I think you and I may have passed 
that age, but there may have been a time when you and I were calling 
3 or 4 young ladies. 

Senator McClellan. I am not that old yet. 

Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy, proceed and the clock will 
start rolling again. Ask the officer any other questions you have in 
mind. 

Senator McCarthy. Just 1 or 2 other questions, Colonel. If I may 
use this chart, again, we find, Colonel, that on here we have a long 
black line on a series of days from the 3d to the 10th, indicating some- 
thing improper on the part of Mr. Schine. We both know now, don't 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 14G7 

we, that he was not assigned, as this indicates, to Fort Dix, but, accord- 
ing to the testimony — may I have your attention, Colonel — according 
to the testimony of the Secretary of the Army, he was assigned on 
temporary duty in New York to the committee, stayed there until I 
called the Secretary and said, "I wish you would assign him to Fort 
Dix." And I believe if you will check his orders you will find that 
he was assigned to Fort Dix then. I am sure this was not intentional 
on your part. But can we now agree that there was nothing at all 
improper on the part of Mr. Schine in this long series of black lines, 
and that they should be erased, if you want to have an accurate 
picture? 

Colonel Murray. I don't think I have said that anything on that 
chart is improper, Senator, and so far as the word "assigned" is con- 
cerned, it has a military meaning. I am assigned here in the Office 
of the Judge Advocate General. If I am sent on duty to Atlanta, I 
will go there on TDY, temporary duty. I believe that the entries on 
those dates that you have pointed out show that Schine was on tempo- 
rary duty in New York, and I believe that the service record that I 
referred to a minute as;o will bear out that fact. 

Senator Muxdt. The Senator's time has again expired. Have you 
any further questions, Mr. Counsel ? 

Mr. Jenkins. No further questions. 

Senator Muxdt. Any Senators to my left? 

Any Senators to my right? 

Mr. Welch or Mr. St. Clair? 

Senator McCarthy, you have another 10 minutes. 

Senator McCarthy. Getting back to this, Colonel, you can read 
this from there, can't you? It says, "Record of absence of Private 
Schine while assigned to Fort Dix." Anyone viewing this — I know 
if you get down to the small print you will know he wasn't absent, but 
you and I know this was prepared for the photographers, for tele- 
vision. When you say "Record of absences," then you draw these heavy 
black lines showing he was absent, you and I know he could not be 
absent when he was attending to his temporary duty in New York, 
isn't that right ? 

Colonel Murray. He wouldn't be absent without leave, but he would 
be absent, sir. There is no attempt made to say other than he is ab- 
sent from Fort Dix. The expression "absent without leave" is a 
word in itself to military men. 

Senator McCarthy. Colonel, many of the average trainees also 
have temporary duty, I assume. 

Colonel Murray. I wouldn't assume that, sir, because that is a very 
intensive period of basic training. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you know if any of them did ? 

Colonel Murray. I do not know, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Colonel, let's you and I just be completely 
honest across the table here, man to man. When you prepare a chart 
and put it on television and say, "Record of absences while assigned 
to Fort Dix," and then you draw a heavy black line here and you 
make the printing so small that obviously no one in the television 
audience could see it, and they are the jury here, this is deceptive, it 
shows 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8—8 days blacked out, a record of absences. 
Wouldn't we agree that that creates a completely false impression, 



1468 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

and that someone, Colonel, someone was deliberately doing this? 
Isn't that obvious? 

Colonel Murray. No, sir. The days are blacked out because he was 
not at Fort Dix, getting up early like the other privates and doing 
the other work that General Ryan has testified to. 

Senator McCarthy. May I say to you, Colonel, he was getting up 
early, he was staying up late. 

Colonel Murray. He wasn't doing it at Fort Dix. 

Senator McCarthy. But he wasn't assigned to Fort Dix. Was he 
assigned to Fort Dix, sir ? 

Colonel Murray. I have so testified, after referring to the records. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you think, Colonel, whoever did this to 
create the impression that this young man was absent from duty — 
do you think they were completely honest ? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir, I do, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Completely honest? 

All right. Let me ask you this : When they prepared this chart, 
and I have colored in the large chart — let's take the small one, if 
you can see it here, completely white — when they show where Mr. 
Schine was on a pass, we will say to 10 : 50 on the 3d of January, 
and they make a huge black mark, when they show the average private 
was on a pass until 12 o'clock midnight and give him no black mark, 
they prepare these things not for your information but for the tele- 
vision audience, do you think, Colonel, and answer this, will you, 
Do you think that they were trying to portray the picture as it was ? 
Do you think they were being honest? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. I think that the legend clearly states 
that. The record on Schine is a factual record because we had gone 
right to the sign-out books and all the other records. The record on 
the other typical trainee, all we could state was what he was authorized 
to do. Some of them may have come in at 9 o'clock instead of 10. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you say it is completely clear? Let me 
hold these two, Colonel. From there you can see that this one is 
clear [indicating]. This is the average trainee. You can see it; 
can't you ? 

Colonel Murray. Yes ; I can see it. I can see it very well. 

Senator McCarthy. It is completely clear. You can't read the 
typing on it ; can you ? 

Colonel Murray. No ; I can't read the typing from here, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. You know this is Schine's record. 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. You can't read the typing but you can see it 
is blacked out; can you not? 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Now, can't you and I both agree, Colonel, that 
the average person, back in this audience, even looking at this, the 
television audience, and they are the jury in this case, can't help but 
get a completely false impression from these phony charts, and that 
this is completely dishonest, Colonel ? Isn't that true ? 

Colonel Murray. No, sir ; it is not true. 

Senator McCarthy. Can you tell me why on God's earth they didn't 
black out the passes, the absences, of the average trainee? Why do 
they only use a symbol to black out Schine's and prepare these huge 
charts for the television audience ? Do you know ? 



wrong 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 14G9 

Colonel Murray. Yes, sir. I think even at this distance if you 
will fold those two in half and look at the upper half first, and compare 
it with Schine's, we will have a comparison. Then look at the bottom 
half and even at this distance I can detect there are black marks on 
what you call a black chart. 

Senator McCarthy. Let's see if you can, then. I will even loan you 
my glasses on this one. 

Colonel, don't look at your chart. Please don't. You said you 
could see this from your distance. 

Colonel Murray. I can see the black as entries 

Senator McCarthy. Let's go down to the 16th day of January. 
Don't look at your chart, Colonel. You said you could see it from 
there. 

Colonel Murray. I can't read it. I said I could see there are black 
marks there. 

Senator McCarthy. Let's look at this. You can see on the 16th 
day of January there is a black mark on Schine's chart. You can 
see on the average inductee pure white. Now does that indicate to 
you that Schine has gotten some special privilege or done something 
? 

Colonel Murray. On the 16th of January I believe Private Schine 
left Fort Dix. 

Senator McCarthy. No, no. You tell me not what you remember, 
but tell me what you can see. You say from there you can tell from 
this chart. 

Colonel Murray. The photographer's and the reporter's heads are 
both in the way. I would like to be able to see it. Fine. 

Senator McCarthy. You, of course, can't see. You can merely see 
the black line on Schine's chart. 

Colonel Murray. You can see — on the 16th of January I can see 
a black line, yes, sir, on Schine's chart. 

Senator McCarthy. I think maybe, Colonel, we need go no further 
on that. I think we have an intelligent enough jury watching these 
proceedings, so they will make the decision on this. 

May I say I don't like to see you taking the rap for this. I think 
all of our trouble has been with the civilians over in the Pentagon. 
Our uniformed men have given us no trouble, with a few exceptions. 

Just one further question before I finish, Colonel. General Ryan 
had this to say on page 3472 of the record. He was asked by Mr. 
St. Clair a question: 

In general, at Fort Dix you don't have your schedule so arranged that these 
men are idle after 5 o'clock at night; they have things to do, do they not? 

He was questioning the commanding officer about Schine's absences. 
General Ryan answered: 

Many of them go to the movies, they watch television, they listen to the radio, 
they write letters home ; we have five service clubs that are going every night 
with dances. On the other hand, many times they have official duties to per- 
form in preparing their equipment and themselves for duties on the following 
day. But a good soldier, after a little while, he gets himself ready for the 
following day in rather fast fashion. It doesn't take him long to clean his rifle, 
get his equipment laid out, get himself cleaned up, and he is off to the movies 
someplace. 

Taking General Ryan's testimony that the average trainee normally 
spends the evenings after his training going to movies, going to, as 



1470 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

he says, the five service clubs where they have dances, do you con- 
sider that these blacked-out areas for Private Schine where your 
Inspector General has determined, after investigation, that he was 
doing the work of the committee in digging out Communists — do 
you think that it was any special favor to him to be able to get up and 
work in the evening instead of going to a dance or to the movies ? 

Colonel Murray. There are so many premises in that question with 
which I don't agree, Senator, that I can hardly answer "Yes" or "No." 

Senator McCarthy. Let's take it 1 by 1. General Ryan said that 
the only time Schine got off was when it would not interfere with his 
training. That was his testimony. 

Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman? 

Senator Mundt. Have you a point of order ? 

Senator Symington. It is 5 minutes after 5. 

Senator Mundt. I was very hopeful we could conclude with the 
witness. 

Senator Symington. I might say, based on discussion, it is a business 
day. 

Senator Mundt. I will ask Senator McCarthy whether he can con- 
clude with the witness in a few more minutes. Perhaps we can dis- 
miss him and start with a new witness in the morning. 

Senator McCarthy. A minute and a half. 

Senator Mundt. Very well, I suggest we stay in session and con- 
clude with the Colonel. 

Senator McCarthy. Just one short series of questions. General 
Ryan testified that Private Schine was only off on passes when, as 
far as he knew, he was doing work for the committee. General Ryan 
testified that some New York paper complained that he was not on 
the work of the committee ; that the inspector general then made an 
investigation; that the inspector general found nothing wrong with 
Schine's absence from the base. 

Let me ask you this question : In view of that testimony on the part 
of General Ryan, would you say that these blacked-out spaces would 
indicate that Schine, instead, as Ryan says, of going to the dances, 
going to the movies, instead of that he was doing the work which he 
was engaged in, namely, helping us to expose Communist infiltration — 
wouldn't you say that instead of being black, Colonel, they perhaps 
should be white ? 

Colonel Murray. According to what you are trying to make black 
and white stand for, you might have something there, sir, but I actual- 
ly feel that I know nothing about what the inspector general found. 
I have not read the report in detail, and as I recall General Ryan's 
testimony, I don't think he disclosed what the inspector general 
found. I feel that this is not a chart to try to be the "be all and end 
all" of the Army's case. All it shows is a record of absences of 
Schine. If it can be proven that he was working on committee busi- 
ness throughout all that period, I suppose there is nothing to say. 
He was. If it were not, then this is just only a link in the chain, 
sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Colonel, just one question: I think I said a 
minute and a half. Colonel, just one question. In view of the fact 
that there is no testimony here even after the inspector general's in- 
vestigation that Mr. Schine was not doing committee work, you would 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 1471 

not take it upon yourself to say he was not doing committee work, 
would you ? 

Colonel Murray. No, sir ; I wouldn't take it upon myself to say that. 

Senator McCarthy. All right. In view of the fact that you have 
the inspector general's investigation, in view of the fact of the positive 
testimony that he was doing committee work, did you see anything 
wrong, any special consideration, any special privilege, with Schine 
being allowed to give us information about Communists, information 
which he had picked up over a period of a year instead of going to the 
dances ? 

Colonel Murray. I see nothing wrong in Schine working when he 
could be playing, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Has the Senator concluded? 

Senator McCarthy. Thank you. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair has an announcement to make. He 
wants to get the attention of Mr. Welch and Senator McCarthy. 

Promptly at 9 : 30 tomorrow morning in room 357 I am calling an 
executive committee meeting, at which time I want to confer with 
committee members, Mr. Welch, and Senator McCarthy, about the 
problem of monitored phone calls and see if we cannot get it settled 
once and for all at that time. 

Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman, I want to apologize in saying 
I could be there at 9 : 30. I cannot be there at 9 : 30 for a reason that 
I will tell you personally, and I would appreciate your making it be- 
tween the 12 : 30 recess and the afternoon recess. 

Senator Mundt. Is that all right with the other members of the 
committee ? 

Senator Jackson. Mr. Chairman, might I inquire ? You sent a let- 
ter to Mr. Welch ? 

Senator Mundt. Correct. 

Senator Jackson. Is that information now available ? 

Senator Mundt. I think it is. It did not get delivered to my of- 
fice before 10 o'clock. 

Senator Dworshak. Could we have the executive meeting, Mr. 
Chairman, immediately following our adjournment? 

Senator Mundt. How about 1 : 30 ? Would 1 : 30 be all right ? 

Senator McClellan. Any time. 

Senator Mundt. Room 357 at 1 : 30 tomorrow afternoon. 

(Whereupon, at 5 : 10 p. m., the committee was recessed, to recon- 
vene at 10 a. m., Wednesday, May 26, 1954.) 



APPENDIX 



Exhibit No. 22 

PRIVATE G. DAVID SCHINE - U.S. 51286044 

RECORD OF ABSENCES AND TELEPHONE MESSAGES TO THE COMMANDING GENERAL. 9TH 
INFANTRY DIVISION. WHILE ASSIGNED TO FORT DIX. NEW JERSEY 

FOR THE PERIOD 3 NOVEMBER 1953 TO 16 JANUARY 1954 

NOVEMBER 



SUNDAY 


MONDAY 


TUESDAY 


WEDNESDAY 


THURSDAY 


FRIDAY 


SATURDAY 


1 


2 


3 


4 


5 


6 


7 


SCHWEINDUCTED .- -ON TEMPORARY ;«■ ON. TEMPORARY ', ../Or- TEMPORARY Of* TEMPORARY -" 
'-■»N1-, ■. .DUTYIN-NY-S".- -VGUTY'N'N.Y- '"•'DUTY INNY r; • D-1TY 1N-NY " I 












g 


q 


|Q 


II 

COhp* a Cadr CallEO Oh 
CEN fitAN 10 SEE SCMivt 
VlSiTED hiu 41 BECECIiOW 
CENTER 


12 

LAVENIA CALLED EOF 
WEEKEND PASS 


1 ■* 


1 4 


- CV.TEMPCRARY v Of^TEMPQRififiY:- 

".OUTY_INA> ' ' .DUTY ,'NNY." ' " 


REPORTED INNY FOR 
TRANSFER TO DIX; 
ASSIGNED TO RECEP- 
TION CENTER 


' ON PASS'AFTER .;. CN PASS-ALL DAY 




















15 


16 


17 


18 

LAVENIA CALLED 
GEN RYAN FOR PASS 
UNTIL 21 NOV 


19 


20 


2 1 






\>LdJi£-& 


ASSGNEDTOVCO. 
4 7TH REST Ff,P 
TRAINING 


j ON PASS ALL DAY " ON PASS^LLDAY '=■ \ 






*T UCCUIRE OFFICERS «*S5 








ITT 1" -IM-^ 


!•..'!.'>. MIHJfl 


22 


23 


24 


25 


26 


27 

COHN OR LAVENIA 
CALLED FOR WEEK- 
END PASS 


28 




BASIC TRAINING FOR 


COHN CALLED tT 
BLOUNT FOR 
THANKSGIVING PASS 


ON PASS AT 605 PM 


ON PASS UNTlQ 

liiii pm ... 


ON PASSAT I2WI 

v: 'pm. . "• :. 1 




K" CO STARTED 










29 


30 












•01 Pass until v- 

,■'  .MIDNIGHT " '■' 


1 





DECEMBER 




JANUARY 



SUNDAY 



MONDAY 



TUESDAY WEDNESDAY THURSDAY 



FRIDAY 



SATURDAY 



ON, PASS ALL DAY 
-'IVOCGI '-■ 



'ON PASS-ALL DAY" 
' l.vtiCSI -"...: ^ 



COMN CALLED TO AS" 
AN INVESTIGATION OF 
SCMX S M * TEAR ABSENCE 
COMMITTEE CALLED SOfWt 




SUBCOMMITTEE STAFF MEM- 
BER CALLEO WITH MESSAGE 
FOR SCMINE TO CALL CARR 
OR CONN 



Subcommittee STAFF mem 
6fR CAli.EC wiI» MESSAGE 
FM ' ■■< TO CAt* 



nw cmcQ-AT t:iRD»i *CVPASS JO U2$P *■'■■ 
ON PASS AT 5ISPM ^ comtomt POLICY 
PER COMPANY .-;;-- r 
iPQLfCYV -■: :■/ 



C0H1 CALLED LT BLOUNT 
CARR CAi-LXO ADAMS RE ' 



12 



13 



14 



15 



16 



COM* CAllED V RECUEST 
SChiNE avCDEnD Cf 
Training CEREMONY 
REFuSEO B' GEN fiTAW 



SC"fNE CAl-IC-^T 6w5JNT 
FOR t.T<AT* TO lEAi£ 
" tif._» GRANTED BT 



hTr J IV,1W', 



1472 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 



1473 



Exhibit No. 23 
TYPICAL AUTHORIZED ABSENCES OF AN AVERAGE TRAINEE UNDERGOING 
TRAINING CYCLE WHILE ASSIGNED TO COMPANY K. 47 TH INFANTRY REGIMENT. 
FORT DIX. NEW JERSEY. 

FOR THE PERIOD 3 NOVEMBER 1953 TO IS JANUARY 1954 

NOVEMBER 



SUNDAY 


MONDAY 


TUESDAY 


WEDNESDAY 


THURSDAY 


FRIDAY 


SATURDAY 


1 


2 


3 


4 


S 


6 


7 


8 


9 


10 


11 


12 


13 


14 


15 


16 


17 


18 


19 


20 


21 


22 


23 


24 


25 


2S 


27 


28 


29 


30 













DECEMBER 



SUNDAY 


MONDAY 


TUESDAY 


WEDNESDAY 


THURSDAY 


FRIDAY 


SATURDAY 








1 


2 


3 


4 


5 




6 


7 


8 


9 


10 


II 


12 




13 


14 


I 15 


16 


17 


18 


19 

ON PASS AT 5 00 PM 
PER CCMPANY POLICY 








20 


21 


22 


23 


24 


25 , 


26 




ON PASS UNTIL MONKHT 


0NPA3SAT II 30 A W. 

PER COMPANY POLICY 


ON PASS ALL DAY 


ON PASS ALL DAY 
















27 


28 


29 


30 


31 








, ^SJ ALL TRAINEES AUTHORIZED 


ON PASS UNTIL MIDNIGHT 


0NPA3SAT 11:30 A.M. 
PER COMPANY POLICY 




'*"" B ™j EITHER C 
J YEARS P 


IHRISTMAS OR NlW 
4SS. BUT NOT BOTH. 



















JANUARY 



SUNDAY 


MONDAY 


TUESDAY 


WEDNESDAY 


THURSDAY 


FRIDAY 


SATURDAY 












1 


2 


ON PASS ALL DAY 


ON PASS ALL DAY 




3 


4 


5 


6 


7 


8 


9 


ON PASS UNTL MIDNIGHT 


OH PASS AT SOOPM 
PER COMPANY POLICY 


ON PA39 ALL DAY 








10 


II 


12 


13 


14 


15 


16 


ON PASS UNTIL MIDNIGHT 




^ 














 



INDEX 



Page 

A Company, 1299 ASU (Fort Dix, N. J.) 1459 

Adams, John G 1428, 1432-1437, 1459, 1461 

AG 1460 

Army (United States) 1426,1429,1432, 

1434-1436, 1438, 1440, 1442-1444, 1448, 1449, 1453-1455, 1466, 1470 

ASU, Company A, 1299 (Fort Dix, N. J.) 1459 

Atlanta, Ga 1467 

Auchincloss, Representative 1433, 1438 

Back, Gen. George 1433 

BeLieu, Colonel 1426, 1431 

Testimony of 1432-1445 

Blount, Lieutenant 1426 

Brown, Mr 1448 

Capitol Hill 1439 

Chart ("Typical authorized absences of an average trainee undergoing 
training cvcle while assigned to Company K, 47th Infantry Regiment, 

Fort Dix, N. J.") 1429 

Chart comparisons (Schine) 1426-1432, 1445-1471 

Chicago 1462 

Chief Signal Officer (Fort Monmouth) 1433 

Christmas 1431 

Cohn, Roy M 1426, 1429, 1433-1444, 1443-1445, 1459, 1464 

Commanding officer (Fort Monmouth) 1439 

Communist aggression 1443 

Communists 1434, 1443, 1464, 1406, 1470, 1471 

Company A, 1299 ASU (Fort Dix, N. J.) 1459 

Company K, 47th Infantry Regiment, Fort Dix, N. J 1429 

Comparative charts (Schine) 1426-1432, 1445-1471 

Congress of the United States 1434 

Congressional committees 1435 

Corr, Lieutenant 1434, 1435, 1437 

Coughlin, Mr 144S, 1419, 1451, 1457, 1458 

Czechoslovakia 1442 

Department of the Army 1426, 1429, 1432, 

1434-1436, 143S, 1440, 1442-1444, 144S, 1449, 1453-1455, 1466, 1470 

Department of Defense 1449 

Dirksen, Senator 1433 

European campaign 1442, 1454 

FBI flies 1434, 1444 

Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) 1434, 1444 

First Army Headquarters 14o6 

Folawn, Captain 1454 

Fort Dix, N. J 1427-1431, 1439, 

1446-1449, 1455, 1456, 1458, 1459, 1461, 1462, 1464, 1465, 1467-1469 

Fort Monmouth 1432-1435, 1437-1445 

Fort Monmouth (Chief Signal Officer) 1433 

Fort Monmouth (laboratory) 1434, 1437, 1441 

Forty-seventh Infantry Regiment, Fort Dix, N. J 1429 

House of Representatives --- 1434 

Inspector General 1^9' rf™ 

Jones, Mr 1434, 1437, 1438, 1440, 1444, 1445, 1460 

Judge Advocate General's Corps 1^60 

K. P. (kitchen police) J™J 

K Company, 47th Infantry Regiment, Fort Dix, N. J 1429 

Korea 14o2 > 144J 

i 



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