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Full text of "Special Senate investigation on charges and countercharges involving: Secretary of the Army Robert T. Stevens, John G. Adams, H. Struve Hensel and Senator Joe McCarthy, Roy M. Cohn, and Francis P. Carr. Hearings before the Special Subcommittee on Investigations of the Committee on Government Operations, United States Senate, Eighty-third Congress, second session, pursuant to S. Res. 189 .."

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SPECIAL SENATE INVESTIGATION ON CHARGES 
AND COUNTERCHARGES INVOLVING: SECRE- 
TARY OF THE ARMY ROBERT T. STEVENS JOHN 
G. ADAMS, H. STRUVE HENSEL AND SENATOR 

JOE McCarthy, roy m. cohn, and 

FRANCIS p. CARR 



HEARING 

BEFOKE THE 

SPECIAL SUBCOMMITTEE ON 
INVESTKJATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON 

GOVEENMENT OPERATIONS 
UNJTEl) STATES SENATE 

EKiHTY-THIED CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 
PURSUANT TO 

S. Res. 189 



PART 59 



JUNE 9, 1954 



Printecl for the use of the Committee on Government Operations 




UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFP'ICB 
^66200 WASHINGTON : 1954 



Boston Public Library 
Superintendent of Documents 

OCT 27 1954 



COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS 
JOSEPH R. McCAHTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman 
KARL E MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas 

MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Maine HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington 

HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetta 

EVERETT MCKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri 
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland THOMAS A. BURKE, Ohio 

CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan 

Richard J. O'Melia, Oeneral Counsel 
Walter L. Reynolds, Chief Clerk 



Special Subcommittee on Investigations 
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota, Chairman 
EVERETT MCKINLEY DIRKSEN, Dlinois JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas 
CH\RLES E POTTER, Michigan HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington 

HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri 

Rat H. Jenkins, Chief Counsel 

Thomas R. Prewitt, Assistant Counsel 

Robert A. Collier, Assistant Counsel 

SOLis HuEwrrz, Assistant Counsel 

Charles A. Maner, Secretary 

n 



CONTENTS 

Index Pafi^e 

Testimony of — ' 

^WsUgitions '^'"^ '^""'''' ^'"^*' Permanent Subcommittee on 
McCarthy, Senator Jo'e"; "United States Sen'atel ""l"""":" "l 2^3 1 

EXHIBITS 

Introduced Appears 

^^' ^0^1 qS?.''''^""'^* ^^'^y Organization, U. S. A., February ""^"'^ '"'"'" 

' May be found in the office of the subcommittee. 

Ill 



SPECIAL SENATE INVESTIGATION ON CHARrxES AND 
COUNTERCHARGES INVOLVING: SECRETARY OF THE 
ARMY ROBERT T. STEVENS, JOHN G. ADAMG, H. STRUVE 
HENSEL AND SENATOR JOE McCARTHY, ROY M. COHN, 
AND FRANCIS P. CARR 



WEDNESDAY, JUNE 9, 1954 

United States Senate, 
Special Subcommittee on Investigations 
OF THE Committee on Government Operations, 

Washington^ D. C. 
after recess 

(The hearing was resumed at 2 : 17 p. m., pursuant to recess.) 

Present : Senators Karl E. Mundt, Republican, South Dakota, chair- 
man; Everett McKmley Dirksen, Republican, Illinois; Charles E. 
Potter, Republican, Michigan; Henry C. Dworshak, Republican, 
Idaho; John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas; Henry M. Jackson, 
Democrat, Washington ; Stuart Symington, Democrat, Missouri. 

Also present: Ray H. Jenkins, chief counsel; Thomas R. Prewitt, 
assistant counsel ; Charles Maner, assistant counsel. 

Principal participants present: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, a 
United States Senator from the State of Wisconsin ; Roy M. Cohn, 
chief counsel to the subcommittee ; Joseph N. Welch, special counsel 
for the Army ; James D. St. Clair, special counsel for the Army. 

Senator Mundt. The committee will please come to order. 

The Chair would like to begin the afternoon session by welcoming 
our guests to the committee room. Some of you have been here before ; 
for some of you this is the first time. So I must acquaint you with 
the committee rule, unanimously adopted, which is to the effect that 
there are to be no audible manifestations of approval or disapproval 
of any kind at any time from our guests in the audience. 

The committee has instructed the Chair to ask the uniformed mem- 
bers of the Capitol Police force, whom you see before you, and the 
plainclothes people scattered throughout the audience, to enforce that 
committee ruling by escorting from the committee room immediately, 
politely but firmly, any of our guests who elect to violate the conditions 
under which you entered the room, namely, to refrain from audible 
manifestations of approval or disapproval. 

Our audiences have been magnificent. The officers have done a 
splendid job. I think it is safe to say that at congressional hearings, 
never before have so many behaved so well for so long, and we ap- 
preciate it. We hope that will continue. 

2397 



2398 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

As we left off, Senator McCarthy had 4 minutes left of his question- 
ing period, if he cares to consume it, after which Mr. Welch and Mr. 
St? Clair have their 10 minutes. 

Senator McCarthy ? 

TESTIMONY OF ROY M. COHN— Resumed 

Senator McCarthy. Excuse me just half a minute, Mr. Chairman. 

First, while I am getting this out, Mr. Cohn, there has been some 
information both here at this hearing and also on the Senate floor by 
Senator Flanders that a dentist Communist for some reason or other 
could not be important. Did you take part in the conviction of a man 
called "Pop" Mandel ? 

Mr.CoHX. "Pop" Mandel ; yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Would you tell us what his occupation was 
and how important he was in the Communist apparatus? 

Mr. CoHN. As I recall it, "Pop" Mandel was a dentist. He was 
convicted last year in the group of second-string leaders of the Com- 
munist Party of the United States. He was very important in the 
Communist apparatus. He was one of the original Communist theo- 
reticians. It occurred to me, sir, that he was a teacher and the head 
of a secret Communist training school for a period of time, and he 
was through the years one of the top leaders in the Communist con- 
spiracy in this country, until his conviction on charges of conspiracy 
to teach and advocate the overthrow of our Government by force and 

violence last year. ^ ^i ^ /^ 

Senator McCarthy. It was mentioned by someone here that Lamp 
Kilmer is a staging point, namely, a place from which soldiers leave 
when they go overseas, and when they come back from overseas. I 
don't know whether that is true or not, but the counsel, I believe Mr. 
Welch, mentioned that, and if he said it, I assume it is true. 

Is it true that a dentist at a staging point would be able to get all 
the information— not all the information, but a great amount of 
information about troop movements, where they were coming from, 
where they were going to, and if he were a Communist as Peress was, 
he could perform a tremendous service for the Communist Party m 
that fashion? . 

Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir, I think there is no question about that. 

Senator McCarthy. If I may, Mr. Cohn, I would like to read to 
you from the report of the Eoyal Canadian Commission which was 
investigating Communist espionage in Canada, which of course over- 
lapped into the United States. We will start on page 499. 

Question. Do yon know wbat doctor that was in Ottawa? 

Answer. I understand from tliat telegram that this doctor lived on Blank 
Street. I do not remember his address. 

Question. The doctor did not know it? 

Answer. Of course not. In this particular case I remember it because it was 
quite a strange situation. One of the members of the military attach^, one of 
the staff. Driver Gorshkov at one time was having his teeth fixed by this doctor. 

Question. He was a dentist then ? 

Answer. Dentist at the time one of the agents— I think it was Nora— was 
having her teeth fixed at the same place, Moscow found it convenient, therefore, 
that during this time the material would be placed in the washroom and after 
an hour or more Gorshkov would go and take the materials out of the washroom. 
Their visits to the dentist or doctors would be explained by having their teeth 
atteiidod to. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2399 

In view of that I assume that you and I could not subscribe to the 
theory of the Senator who made the speech tlie other day or to the 
questioners here that merely because a man were a dentist he would 
be unimportant in the Communist apparatus. 

Mr. CoHN. No, sir; and it occurs to me, too, that there was still an- 
other dentist who fi^rnred very importantly. I believe there was one 
who was a key link in the Whittaker Chambers spy ring. I think 
there was some testimony about that by Attorney General Brownell 
before the .Tenner committee. 

Senator McCarthy. 1 was going to ask you about that also. If I 
could hand you 

Senator Mundt. The Senator's time has expired. 

Mr. Welch, 10 minutes. 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Cohn, I sometime hope we can move Peress out 
of this hearing. You don't at all think that I believe it is of no 
importance that we have a Communist around, no matter what he 
is doing, do you, Mr. Cohn ? 

Mr. Cohn. I am sure you don't, sir. 

Mr. Welch. The thing that I merely wanted to reassure the countrv 
on was that he wasn't sitting right' square in the middle of Fort 
Monmouth as I was afraid some people might think he was ? 

Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Nothing could be clearer than that, is that correct? 

Mr. Cohn. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Now, I want one or two more questions of you about 
your memorandum of January 14. 

Mr. Cohn. Surely, sir. 

Mr. Welch. You will remember that is the occasion, or that date 
is the date on which you, as you put it, listened to some nasty talk 
or was the occasion on which Mr. Adams was somewhat nasty in 
respect to Schine, is that right ? 

Mr. Cohn. Yes. That was that overseas conversation. 

Mr. Welch. That overseas talk? 

Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And that he was attaching those nasty suggestions to 
your friend Schine, that he might go overseas ? 

Mr. Cohn. He was trying to — what it got down to was he was 
trying to say that, "Unless you people cooperate with me, I am going 
to do this." 

Mr. Welch. In other words, it is one of the blackmail occasions? 

Mr. Cohn. I would say it could be ; sir, yes. 

Mr. Welch. One of the blackmail occasions. Had you said any- 
thing to Mr. Adams prior to that date that could have indicated to 
him that you had a considerable interest in Private Schine? 

Mr. Cohn. Well, sir 

Mr. Welch. Just "Yes" or "No." Had you said anything to him? 

Mr. Cohn. I am very sure he knew that Private Schine had worked 
on the committee staff. The answer is "Yes," of course. 

Mr. Welch. Had you said anything that had indicated that you 
were peculiarly interested in Schine personally ? 

Mr. Cohn. I was not peculiarly interested in him, sir. He was a 
member of the committee staff. He was a friend of mine and had 
been before he came with the committee. I think, in answer to your 



2400 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

question, it would have been fair to Mr. Adams to assume that I or 
Mr Carr and anyone else on our staff would resent the fact that 
treatment of a soldier who had been with our committee was going to 
depend on our ability or inability to stop an investigation. 

Mr. Welch. Well, you were a grown man then, as Mr. Carr was a 
grown man, weren't you ? 

Mr. CoHN. That is right, sir. p,, Ti-fi 

Mr. Welch. And you were working for a commiKcr nt the United 
States Senate that was investigating the Army ? 

Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir. ^^ ^ -u x j „ 

Mr Welch. It must have seemed to you, Mr. Carr, that when Adams 
talked nasty about Schine as some kind of a blackmail threat, it must 
have iust seemed laughable, didn't it? . 

Mr. CoHN. I don't know if it seemed laughable, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Well, it just couldn't move you, could it? 

Mr. CoHN. Pardon me ? 

Mr. Welch. It couldn't move you? 

Mr. Cohn. It didn't. 

Mr. Welch. And it couldn't ? 

Mr. CoHN. I don't think it could ; no. 

Mr. Welch. All he was saying was that here was a young soldier 
that might go overseas or would go overseas as millions of others had, 

isn't that right ? .,,-,, n i i /• 

Mr. CoHN. No, sir. If he had said that, that would have been hne. 

That isn't what he was saying. 

Mr. Welch. He was saying that he might go overseas, wasnt hei 

Mr. CoHN. No, sir, it didn't happen that way at all. _ 

Mr. Welch. That was at least part of what he was saying. He 
was nasty about Private Schine's possibility of going overseas? 

Mr. Cohn. No, sir, not at all. j. i ,. 

Mr. Welch. Wasn't it something to this effect that if you didn t 
haul off on the investigations, by gosh, Schine is apt to go overseas? 

Mr. CoHN. I would say that is getting a little closer to it, Mr. Welch. 

Mr. Welch. A little closer ? 

Mr. CoHN. Yes. .. ^ , , ^i. 

Mr. Welch. That didn't faze you, did it? That didn't have the 
slightest effect on you, did it? «. . • 

Mr. CoHN. I don't know what you mean by the slightest effect, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Well, it couldn't affect you, could it, a little talk about 
somebody going overseas in uniform? 

Mr. CoHN. No, that didn't affect me, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Of course not. 

Mr. CoHN. It could lead me to feel that I resented Mr. Adams sug- 
gesting that Mr. Carr or I would be influenced in our action by what 
they did or did not do or threatened to do with reference to Schme 
or anybody else. . 

I\fr. Welch. And it wasn't even important enough to put m your 

memorandum, was it? 

Mr. CoHN. Sir 

Mr. Welch. Isn't the answer to that "no" ? 

Mr. CoHN. As far as importance was concerned, Mr. Adams was 
baiting me. I can take care of myself. I did not put it in the memo- 
randum, no. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2401 

Mr. Welch It was not important enough to include, was it? 
Mr. CoHN. I don t know whether you could say it is important 
enough or not. 

Mr. Welch. You put in this little chitchat about a new New York- 
strike New 1 ork— about a law partnership, did you not « 
Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And you knew that was chitchat? 
Mr. CoHN. I don't know whether it was or not. 
oNIr. Welch. But that went into the memorandum ? 
Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. But that nasty blackmail threat about Schine didn't 
get m at all, did it? 
Mr. CoHx. No, I didn't put it in, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Now, Mr. Cohn, I want to turn to Private Schine and 
the work he did at Fort Dix. Let me see if I can get this thino- in 
perspective. * 

Mr. Cohx. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. He went to work for the committee about when? 
Mr. Cohn", January or February. 

Mr. Welch. Well, 'shall we say February 1 as fairly accurate « 
. Mr. Cohn. Sure. 

Mr. Welch. So he worked through February and March for the 
committee. April I think you and he were in Europe; is that ri^^ht? 
Mr. Cohn. That is right, sir. " * 

Mr. Welch. That work was either concluded while you were there 
or on your return ? 
Mr. Cohn. No. It never has been actually concluded. 
Mr. Welch. It wasn't a part of the hangover job that Mr. Schine 
sutiered from— strike out that word "hangover." It could be mis- 
understood. 

I beg you, sir. What I am trying to get at is that of the piled-up 

work that Schine had on hand, which he had to do after he went to 

Fort Dix, none was connected with that European trip; is that right? 

Mr. Cohn. To this extent, sir, it was : Some of it was connected witli 

the investigation of which the trip was a part. 

Mr. Welch. In any event, such work as had been piled up and was 
undone by the time that he was inducted, came either from the months 
of February or March ? Did any come from those 2 months ? 

Mr. Cohn. It came from the entire period of time he was with the 
committee. 
Mr. Welch. The entire period ? 
Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. AVelch. And even some from April, then, is that right ? 
Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir, I would say so. 

Mr. Welch. So we have February, March, April, May, and June- 
he had 5 months of work before you knew, at the 1st of July, that he 
was going into the Army. So he had July, August, Se]>tember, and 
October to get cleaned up in, didn't he ? 
Mr. Cohn. It wasn't a question of that, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Now, Mr. Cohn, let's be fair with each other. He had 
had 5 months of work prior to the time you knew he was going into 
the Army, hadn't he ? 

46fi20='— 54— pt. 59 2 



2402 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr, CoHN. Yes, he had been with the committee 5 months. 

Mr. Welch. It turned out there was 4 months between the time that 
you knew he was going in until the time he actually went in ? 

Mr. CoHN. That is about right, sir. 

Mr. Welch. So he had 4 months in which to get his work up even ? 

Mr. CoHN. It wasn't quite that way, sir; no. 

Mr. Welch. It seems to me it has to be just that way, if you can 
read a calendar. Let me try it once more. 

Mr. Cohn. No. 

Mr. Welch. Let me try it simply with you. He had 5 months in 
which work could have piled up; is that right, meaning January, 
February, March, April, May — as a matter of fact, we mostly can 
say 4 months, because April he was abroad. 

Mr. CoHN. It wasn't a question of work piling up, Mr, Welch. 

Mr. Welch. You mean you kept giving it to him ? 

Mr. CoHN. No, sir, it wasn't a question of that, either. 

Mr. Welch. It is one or the other. It is either that he has old work 
that he hasn't done or he has current work that you are handing to 
him. It is one or the other, isn't it? 

Mr. Cohn. No, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Then he has old work he is continuing on. It can't 
be anything but those three, can it ? 

Mr. CoHN. I would be glad to tell you what it was.^ sir. 

Mr. Welch. Would you mind using my descriptions once in a while ? 
He either has some old work that isn't done — that is one thing he could 
have, is that right? 

Mr. CoHN. Yes, that is a possibility. 

Mr. Welch. He has some old work that he is continuing on, is tJiat 
right? That could be? 

Mr. CoHN. I suppose so, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And he has some new work. That could be? 

Mr. Cohn. Sure. 

Mr. Welch. Did you give him new work? 

Mr. Cohn. I don't think we gave him work. 

Mr. Welch. The answer, then, is "No"? 

Mr. Cohn. The answer is "No," sir, I don't think 

Mr. Welch. The answer is "No," is that right? It is so simple, 
Mr. Cohn. 

Mr. Cohn. I am afraid it isn't, Mr. Welch. 

Mr. Welch. You either did or didn't. Why do we have so much 
trouble ? 

Mr. Cohn. I don't know, sir. I don't think I have the trouble with 
anybody else. 

Mr. Welch, the answer is this : We did not give him work on new 
investigations. 

Mr. Welch. Not a single new assignment? 

Mr. Cohn. It isn't that way, sir. 

Mr. Welch. It can be that way. Did you give him a single new 
assignment? Is the answer to that "No"? 

Mr. Cohn. Mr. Welch, I am trying to tell you what the situation 
was. 

Mr. Welch. Answer that one. You didn't give him a new assign- 
ment, did you? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2403 

Mr. CoHN. It wasn't a question of tliat, sir. 

Mr. Welch. The question now is: Did you or didn't you give him 
a new assignment ? "^ *= 

Mr. CoHN. I am trying to tell you what happened, Mr. Welch, if vou 
will let me. ' -^ 

Mr. Welch. I just want to know if you gave him a new aesignment. 

Mr. CoHN. I am trying to tell you. 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Cohn, a lot of people are listening to us. Tell us 
whether or not you gave him a new asignment. 

Mr. Cohn. I will try to tell you what I did give him. 

Mr. Welch. Won't you tell me that? Did you give him a new 
assignment, "Yes" or "No," Mr. Cohn ? 

Mr. Cohn. The answer to the question is "No," we did not give 
him a 

Mr. Welch. No. Is that the answer? 

Mr. Cohn. It is not the complete one. 

Mr. Welch. No, but; and no but what— no, but I did give him a 
little one ? 

Mr. Cohn. Mr. Welch, did you want to give the answers as well 
as 

Mr. Welch. You bet your life I do. I want to know whether or 
not you gave him a new assignment. Will you tell me "Yes" or "No" 
if you did ? 

Mr. Cohn. I will try to tell you what happened. 

Mr. Welch. Will you give it "Yes" or "No," and then if you have 
to explain it, go ahead. 

Mr. Cohn. That is what I have been trying to do for 10 minutes. 

Mr. Welch. AVhich is it, " Yes" or "No" ? 

Mr. Cohn. The answer is, We did not give him any assignment on 
new investigations. He continued work which he had been doing on 
investigations which were commenced prior to that period of time. 

Mr. Welch. Then the answer could have been given to me about 
2 o'clock that you didn't give him any new assignment ; is that right ? 

Mr. Cohn, I am afraid it might not have been accurate. 

Mr. Welch. It would be perfectly accurate. I didn't ask you 
whether he was going to continue on his old work or not. I wanted 
to know if he had a new assignment. The answer is "No," isn't it? 

Mr. Cohn. The answer is 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch, your time has expired. 

Mr. Cohn. The answer is that there were no new investigations on 
which he worked. He continued working on the ones on which he 
had been working. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Jenkins? 

Mr. Jenkins. I pass, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Any Senators to my left? 

Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Senator Symington ? 

Senator Symington. I would like the people to know that Senator 
McClellan is now tied up on the floor with a bill which is very impor- 
tant. Otherwise, he would be with us. That is, the floor of the 
Senate. [Laughter.] 



2404 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator Mundt. I believe our television audience is familiar with 
senatorial terminology, and when you say "floor" they know exactly 

what you mean. , i t j « 4- 

Senator Symington. May I add that latter remark I made was at 
the suggestion of Senator Jackson. I take no responsibility tor it. 
Senator Mundt. Very well. , . , 

Senator Dirksen? I am sorry to have skipped you 
Senator Dirksen. Mr. Cohn, I am interested m the line of question- 
ing pursued by Mr. Welch about the work which IMr. Sphme did while 
at Fort Dix, and I see you have had some difficulty in finding time 
to make the kind of an" answer you want to make so that the whole 
story will be told. The Senator from Illinois is not particularly 
interested in the technicalities of a "Yes" or "No" answer. I would 
like to know myself. So suppose you respond to that question in 
my time and tell us the whole story. _ , -r^- i 

Mr CoHN. Thank you for the opportunity, Senator Dirkseiv. 
After it was apparent that Schine was going into seiwice, as 1 recall 
it we did not give him work to do on any new investigation, ibere 
were a certain number of investigations already under way on which 
he had worked. He continued his work on those investigations until 
the very time he went in. After he was in the service on a small num- 
ber of occasions we had to get some information from him about wit- 
nesses and things on which he had worked, and we did that. Me 
helped write the reports on an investigation which he and I alone had 
primary responsibility for and knew all the facts about, after an at- 
tempt on our part to get a new man to write the reports was unsucxiess- 
f ul I think that is about the sum and substance of the whole thing. 
Senator Dirksen. That is all, Mr. Chairman. 
Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy. 
Senator McCarthy. Just one question. 

Mr Cohn, when my 10 minutes ended we were discussing the ques- 
tion of whether or not as Flanders said a little Communist dentist 
could be important or not. I refer now to page 807 of Whittaker 
Chambers' book, The Witness, and he also testified upon this matter. 
Is it correct that one of the top Communist agents with whom Whit- 
taker Chambers worked was a dentist, who had an office some place 
I believe up on— I don't know which was the address m New York- 
Fort Hill and Broadway. 
Mr. CoHN. Dr. Rosenbleit, I believe. . 

Senator McCarthy. And that that was used as a meeting place lor 
Communist espionage agents because they could safely go to a dentist 
and have their teeth worked upon, leave, and not much suspicion 
attach to that. 
Mr. CoHN. That is right, sir. , . ^.^i i x 

Senator McCarthy. Therefore, the fact that their fifth amendment 
Communist, Peress, was a dentist at what Mr. Welch calls a staging 
point would put him, according to the Canadian Royal Commission, 
according to Whittaker Chambers' testimony, in perhaps a more dan- 
gerous position, a much more dangerous position than though he were 
merely the commanding officer of a company because if he were the 
commanding officer of a company you would look out for privates 
who come in and talk to him, but being a dentist, anyone from a gen- 
eral down to a private could come in and discuss matters with him 
which he could pass on to an espionage agent. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2405 

Mr. Peress, as I recall, refused to tell us whether, No. 1, he was 
forming Commumst cells at Camp Kilmer, and No. 2, 1 may be wrong 
in this, as I recall he also refused to tell, invoking the self-incrimina- 
tion privilege, whether or not he was engaged in espionage at the time 
we called him before the committee. 

Mr. CoHN. I think you are right about that latter, Senator In 
executive session it occurred to me he did invoke the fifth amend- 
ment on questions concerning espionage. That is subject to check 
with the record but I think that is right. 

Senator McCarthy. So then when a Senator goes on the Senate 
floor and ridicules the fact that you have come up with a Communist 
who is merely a dentist, either he is extremely naive or someone is 
planting the words in his mouth ? 

Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir. I — yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Nothing further, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch, you have another 10 minutes. 

Mr. Welch. I unhappily was a little inattentive when Senator Dirk- 
sen asked you the last questions, because I was having a whispered 
colloquy with your— with the Senator, with respect to you, sir. Did 
I understand you to say that Mr. Schine wrote 

Senator McCarthy. Make it clear, it wasn't an extremely sociable 
colloquy. It was simply a colloquy dealing at arms length in regard 
to how we could perhaps shorten the hearings. 

Mr. Welch. And your availability as a witness. 

Senator McCarthy. Right. 

Mr. Welch. I didn't mean to indicate, Senator 

Senator McCarthy. I wouldn't like to have the television audience 
think that Welch and McCarthy were collaborating on anything, 
because so far we definitely have not. 

Mr. Welch. I understand. Senator. Our positions in life are such 
that in spite of the charm I wish I had and the charm you obviously 
have, we cannot in this room be friends, sir. 

Mr. Cohn, I didn't quite get what you said about Schine writing 
these reports. 

Mr. Cohn. We can get that read back, I am sure, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Well, tell it to me again, if ^ou will. 

Mr. Cohn. Sure. I said he helped write the reports which were 
reports submitted by the committee on an investigation, in the course 
of which Schine did most of the work and by which he knew more 
than anybody else. 

Mr. Welch. Where did he do that writing ? 

Mr. Cohn. Pardon me, sir? 

Mr. Welch. Where did he do that writing? 

Mr. Cohn. I would say he did that in New York. 

Mr. Welch. In New York ? 

Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. On these leaves? 

Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. At what address in New York? 

Mr. Cohn. At his home. A lot of times he worked up at the home 
of my family. He worked at his office on occasion, I imagine. 

Mr. Welch. And with a stenographer? 

Mr. Cohn. I don't know whether he worked with a stenographer 
or not. I know this, sir : He wrote out a good deal of the stuff in 



2406 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

longhand. Before the end of the weekend, I would usually go over 
it a^'nd make changes and type it up on my typewriter and then it 
would be set down to Frank Carr. I don't think— I didn t use a 
stenographer. I don't think that he did. . , , ^, 

Mr. Welch. Well, were you with Mr. Schme when he was on these 

leaves at work ? . , , .. .1 ii, 

Mr. CoHN. Yes ; on a lot of occasions we worked together on those 

^^ Mr. Welch. On what occasions, Mr. Cohn ? Do you keep a diary, 



sir» 



Mr Cohn. No; I don't, Mr. Welch. I don't have time. 
Mr. Welch. Are you going to be able to tell us when you were with 
him when Schine was out of Fort Dix ? „t i u 

Mr. Cohn. I can give you a general idea, Mr. Welch. 

Mr. Welch. Well, let's begin with the 

Mr. Cohn. I can't give it to you minute by minute. 
Mr. Welch. Let's begin with the 8 consecutive days that began 
with iiis induction on November 3 and ran through November 10. 
Mr. Cohn. He wasn't at Fort Dix, then, sir. 
Mr. Welch. I am sorry? 

Mr. Cohn. He was not at Fort D]x. ^^ ,^ , ^ . .^- ^, 

Mr. Welch. No ; he was assigned to New York for work with the 
committee? 

Mr. Cohn. That is right, sir. , , ., ,^ , , t^-j 1, a 

Mr. Welch. Where did he spend— strike that out. Did he spend 
all those days, and let's excuse him on Sunday, with you ? 

Mr Cohn. I don't recall, sir. I think that on some of those days 
we were having hearings down in New York, and I think he was 
over at those hearings. 

Mr. Welch. Over at those hearings? 

Mr. Cohn. I think so, sir. ^ -,. i. • 

Mr. Welch. Do you mean he was ]ust over attending a hearing 
when he ought to be working on. this old stuff? 
Mr. Cohn. Pardon me, sir. 
Mr. Welch. That won't do at all, Mr. Cohn. 
Mr. Cohn. I am sorry it displeases you, Mr. Welch. ^ 

Mr Welch. Do you mean to tell me that during the week, begin- 
ning Tuesday, November 3, Mr. Schine was sitting around at some 
current hearing ? 

Senator McCarthy. Wasn't that terrible ? 
Mr. Welch. Is that right? 

Mr. Cohn. I think he was . . • -> 

Mr Welch. How many days that week was he sitting at a hearing « 
Mr. Cohn. I think— I would have to tell you how many— I don t 
know, sir. Two or three, whatever it was. 
Mr. Welch. Whole days? 
Mr. Cohn. Well, whenever the hearing was on, I suppose he was 

there. 

Mr. Welch. And not working at all on his piled up stuff? 

Mr. Cohn. He was working, sir. 

Mr. Welch. What ? At night, do you mean ? 

Mr. Cohn. Sir, he wasn't at the hearings for his amusement. 

Mr. Welch. No, but he is at the hearings. That is a funny place 
to work. He wouldn't have a stenographer in there dictating to her, 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2407 

would he? Maybe it is this way, Mr. Cohn. Did he have a pad on 
heaiJbfgsT ""'' ""'"'"'^ '^'''' ^°"^^'"^ ^^"^Ss while he satTthe 
Mr. CoiiN. Sir you might think hearings are funny places to work 

Mr 'w.'r Ji'l'^ V '^ l^rfr'k °u^-"^^^ ''""'^ ^^'' ^'^ done at hearings 

Mr. Welch Yes, but Mr. Schine was supposed to be working on 
matters that had come out of the hearings much earlier than That 
wasnthe* ' 

Mr. CoHx. No, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Cohn, is this actually typical of what Schine did 
when the Secretary of the Army got him off at Fort Dix so he could 
work on committee matters ? 

Mr. Cohn. It is one of the things he did, yes. 

Mr. Welch. Is this really typical ? 

Mr Cohn. No, I wouldn't say it is typical. It is one of the things 
he did, sir. " 

Mr. Welch. One of the things he did was to sit and listen to the 
testimony at these hearings, is that right ? 

Mr. Cohn. I don't think he just sat and listened, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Well, he wasn't examining the witnesses? 

Mr. Cohn. Well, he very well might have been, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Do you want to tell us that ? 

Mr. Cohn. That he might have been examining witnesses? 

Mr. Welch. Yes. 

JVIr. Cohn. Sure. He did it on many occasions. 

Mr. Welch. During the week of November 3 ? 

Mr. Cohn. He very well might have. 

Mr. Welch. Honest, Mr. Cohn ? 

Mr. Cohn. Pardon me, sir? 

Mr. Welch. Honest ? 

Mr. Cohn. Honest what, sir? 

Mr. Welch. Was he examining witnesses during that week? 

Mr. Cohn. He very well might have been, Mr. Welch. 

Mr. Welch. ]\Ir. Cohn, I thought the trouble was that he had this 
piled up stack of work and that you had to get somebody on the level 
of the Secretary of the Army to get him off so he could finish it. Isn't 
that what I understood and should have understood? 

Mr. Cohn. No, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Didn't he do anything on his piled up work during 
those 7 golden days when you had him in New York ? 

Mr. Cohn. Yes, he did, sir. 

Mr. Welch. What did he do during those 7 golden days besides 
sit in the hearings and listen to the testimony? 

Mr. Cohn. Sir, it was not a question of sitting in the hearings. 

Mr. Welch. You told us he was sitting in the hearings, or was 
he standing all the time? 

Mr. Cohn. Sir, I was sitting in the hearings, too, and I don't think 
that implies I wasn't doing any work. 

Mr, Welch. I am not suggesting, Mr. Cohn, that you weren't doing 
any work. I think, sir, you have a reputation of working very hard. 
Don't misunderstand me. But you know, do you not, that under these 
circumstances, Mr. Cohn was due to be as busy as a bee? Mr. Schine, 
I beg your pardon. That is a sign that it is afternoon when I often 
mix up names. Let me try it all over again. 



2408 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

At those hearings, you know that Mr. Schine was supposed to be 
busy, don't you ? 

Mr. CoHN. At the hearings ? 

Mr. Welch. At the time the hearings were going on? 

Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir. . ., tt -^ j 

Mr. Welch. You have got a special dispensation from the United 

States Army that let's him come up and work on this heap of work 

that you couldn't get finished between July when you knew he was 

o-oin<T into the Army and November when he did go, isn't that right, 

sir? 

Mr. CoHN. It is right to some extent, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Now do you want to tell me that because you were 
at the hearing, Schine couldn't work? 

Mr. CoHN. No. sir ; I don't. 

Mr. Welch. He could hold a pencil, couldn't he, and write? 

Mr. CoHN. Sure he could. 

Mr. Welch. Or he could dictate ? 

Mr. CoHN. Sure. 

Mr. Welch. As a matter of fact, Mr. Cohn, did you ever see him 
with a stenographer, dictating anything to her after November 3d 
and until he finished at Fort Dix ? 

Mr. CoHN. I don't recall that, sir, that I did. 

Mr. Welch. Never did. Did you ever see him, Mr. Cohn, with a 
dictating machine in front of him dictating? 

Mr. CoHN. I don't think he ever used one, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Eight. Now, aren't we all old enough to know 

Mr. CoHN. I have seen him write a lot of materials. 

Mr. Welch. Right. Aren't we all old enough to know, Mr. Cohn, 
that if you are in a rush in this modern world about writing some- 
tliing, the way to get it down is to have a secretary, isn't that correct, 
sir? 

]\Ir. CoHN. That is certainly one way. 

Mr. Welch. And another way is to have a dictating machine; isn't 
that a second way, sir ? 

Mr. CoHN. It might be a second way, but I guess I do my work 
the third way. 

Mr. Welch. Let me ask you this: Wouldn't a very good way to 
liiive gotten this pressing work done, wouldn't it have been a good 
w ay to do it in the room that General Ryan set out for you at Fort Dix ? 

Mr. CoHN. Not particularly, sir. 

Mr. Welch. It would have been a beautiful way to do it, wouldn t 
it? 

Mr. Cohn. No, sir. 

Mr. Welch. "\Vliat is wrong with the room down there ? 

Mr. Cohn. Sir, there is nothing wrong with the room down there, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And you could have had a dictating machine there, 
couldn't you? 

Mr. Cohn. Sir, I have never had— I have never used one m my 

life and 

Mr. Welch. You could have had a stenographer. 

Mr. Cohn. I don't know that he has. I have my own way of work- 
ing. The fact is the reports did get out. I don't think they look too 
badly. So we got the work done. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2409 

Mr. "Welch. By the way, after Schine went to Dix, on his leaves 
when he was going to be so busy at work, he would get to New York 
how? 

Mr. CoHN. Pardon me, sir ? 

Mr. Welch. How would he get to New York from Fort Dix ? 

Mr. CoHN. By car, sir. 

Mr. Welch. By car? 

Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir. 

ISIr. Welch. By car, his car, is that right ? 

Mr, CoHN. I don't know on every occasion. I picked him up a 
couple of times. I think his brother picked him up a couple of times. 

]\Ir. AVelch. Mr. Cohn, did you go down to Dix and pick him up a 
time or two ? 

Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And then drive back to New York ? 

Mr. CoHN. Yes ; that is right. 

Mr. Welch. How far, sir ? 

Mr. CoHX. In miles ? 

Mr. Welch, Yes, 

Mr. Cohn. I don't know— 60 or 70. 

Mr. Welch. Taking how long? 

Mr. CoHN. About an hour and a half drive, I had better say 2 
hours in case 

Mr. Welch, I think so. Even I know enough about New York to 
know it is tough to get that far in an hour and a half, 

Mr, CoHN". I was thinking of cops with speeding tickets who might 
be listening, 

Mr, Welch, So that meant 4 hours out to drive from Dix to New 
York and back ; is that right ? 

Mr. Cohn, Yes, sir, 

Mr, Welch, You didn't do any work in the car? 

Mr, CoHN". We would talk on the way back in the car, 

Mr. Welch. Tallv. I have no doubt of that. Isn't it a fact that 

Senator Muxdt. Mr. Welch, your time has expired. Do you want 
to finish that question ? 

Mr, Jenkins ? 

Mr, Jenkins. I pass. 

Senator Mundt. Any Senators to my left? Senators to my right? 
Senator McCarthy. 

Senator McCarthy. I will pass. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch, you have 10 minutes more. 

Mr. Welch. Mr, Cohn, isn't it a fact — strike that out, 

Mr, Cohn, you must have had a burning ambition to keep his ab- 
sences from Dix at an absolute minimum, did you not? 

Mr, Cohn, I had an ambition, certainly, sir, to stick to the arrange- 
ment which Mr. Stevens had been good enough to make. 

Mr, Welch, Eight, And you wanted to keep Mr, Schine 's absences 
from Dix at an absolute minimum ? 

Mr. Cohn. I did stick to that arrangement. 

IMr. Welch. Will you ansAver the question ? 

Mr. Cohn. Yes. 

Mr. Welch. You wished to keep his absences from Dix at an abso- 
lute minimum ? 

46620"— 54— pt. 59 3 



2410 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 



Mr CoHN. No, sir; what I wished to do was to stay within the ar- 
rancrement which Mr. Stevens had worked out, and we did that 

Mr WeJh Not caring whether you could contract the period of 
time he was absent, if possible ? . -• 

Mr CoHN. I don't know that I gave thought to contraction 
Mr Welch. You didn't care whether he was gone much or little i 
Mr CoHN. I think the way we tried to plan it out ^as so we could 
be w'tMn the arrangement 4hich Secretary Stevens had been good 
enough to make, one which he said would not interfere with the 

^' M^^r ""welch. I think I am entitled to an answer, Mr. Cohn. Did 
you have a real ambition to keep Private Schme's absences from Dix 
at an absolute minimum? «Yes"or';No ? v^ r,.f w«nf fn ^o 

Mr CoHN. My answer to it, sir, is "Yes,"; we did not want to go 
beyond the arrangement which Mr. Stevens said was proper and 
which would enable him to do his training at the same time 

Mr! Welch. If you just couldn't possibly go beyond that arrange- 
ment, that is the maximum, isn't it ? 

Mr. CoHN. Pardon me, sir ? 

Mr. Welch. That is the maximum ? _ • _ rpi.of 

Mr. CoHN. I don't think it was a minimum or maximum, lliat 

"" Mr ' Welch. Now, Mr. Cohn, isn't it a fact that on the occasions 
that you at least drove down and picked him up and went back to 
N^w York, and then did some work, and turned around and drove 
back, that you at least would have had 4 more hours of honest work 
wTth Schine if you had walked into the room that General Kyan 
Tlreacly had set aside for you and sat down on those hard Army chairs 
and gone to work ? 
Mr. Cohn. No, sir. , 

Uv. Welch. You don't think you would have saved 4 hours i 
Mr. CoHN. No : I don't, sir. . , 

Mr. Welch. Would you go with me if I were to say you might 

have saved 3 hours ? 
Mr. Cohn. No, sir. 
Mr.AVELCH. Or 2 hours? 
Mr. CoHN. No, sir. 
Mr. Welch. Or 1 hour? 

Mr. WErcH. You 'just think you couldn't have saved anything by 

working there? ,.,. 

Mr. CoHN. I think we did it in the most expeditious way, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Expeditious way ? 

Mr, Cohn. Yes, sir. , . » <-, 

Mr Welch. Honestly, Mr. Cohn, do you want this group of Sen- 
ators to believe that you couldn't have saved 4 hours of driving if you 
had just parked the car and gone to work at Dix where you had 

^Mr^CoHN. Sir, that would have meant, I suppose, that I had— 
first of all, there is a lot of material from which we work, ihat 

isNO. 1. . -r^. 1 T »J. 9 

Mr. Welch. You could keep it at Dix, couldn t you f 
Mr. Cohn. Pardon me, sir ? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2411 

Mr. Welch. You could keep it at Dix ? 

Mr. CoHN. I rather think not. 

Mr. Welch. Wliere were you keeping it ? 

Mr. CoHN. I kept it at my house, sir. 

Mr. Welch. At your home? 

Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Anything that could be kept at your home could be 
kept locked up m a room at Dix, easily, could it not ? 

Mr. CoHN. I wouldn't say so, sir ? 

Mr. Welch. What makes it so impossible ? 

Mr. CoHN. That just wasn't the way of doing it. 

Mr. Welch. That was not the way you did it. What was it, a 
stack of papers, Mr. Cohn ? ' 

W™£d— ^* ^'^ worked from the transcript of the hearings. 

Mr. Welch. Those were bound books, then, weren't they ? 
Mr. Cohn. Pardon me? ^ 

Mr. Welch. Bound pamphlets ? 

Mr. Cohn. They were loose pamphlets. We worlced from execu- 
tive-session testimony. 

Mr. Welch. You had them in your home? 

Mr Cohn. Yes; I did, sir. We worked from files, from notebooks 
which he kept, and some files which I had. If we were to work at 
iJix all weekend, I didn't know what facilities there were for mv 
ofXmo-th^'' overnight. I certainly didn't have any intention 

Mr. Welch. You mean by that you didn't want it in any wav in- 
convenient for you ? •'^ 

Mr. Cohn. Sir, it was a great inconvenience for me. The whole 
tlimg was and the whole thing is a great inconvenience for me I 
did not, sir, want to go down and stay overnight at Fort Dix • vou 
are right. » j^" 

Mr. Welch. Did you ever try the device of sending him a memo- 
randum at Dix and having either a machine or a stenographer take 
an answer to it ? » i ^ 

Mr. Cohn. No, sir. 

Mr. Welch No letter was ever written him, was there ? 

Mr. Cohn. No ; I can't say that— I am sorry, sir 

Mr. Welch. I beg your pardon ? 

nnf 'n'c^S''''''- Y^^ '^r'L'^'^ P'''^^y ^''^^'^y ^^ ^^'^ ganie that we would 
not, as far as the staff was concerned, we would not send through 
t^ie mails to Dix or to Camp Gordon, where he subsequently weSt, 
written matter. No, sir. ' 

your'homr?''''' ^""""^ ""^ ^^^ ^''''^ '"^ ^^'^ ^""'^^ ^"^'^ '^^ "^^^ ^°^^^ ^" 
Mr. Cohn. Yes, it was, sir. 
Mr. Welch. And some in his home ? 
Mr. Cohn. Yes. Most in mine. 
Mr. Welch. Most in yours? 
Mr. Cohn. Yes. 

Mr. Welch. Anywhere else, sir? 

Mr. Cohn. I think he worked at his office on occasion, sir. 
Mr. Welch. At his office? ' 



2412 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 



Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir. .,,.,, , 

^Jclu.":ZZIZ:T^':^ Oroccasion other staff members 

Mr. Welch. Did you have these files there? 

Mr CoHN. Pardon me, sir ? , ^ „ 

Mr" Welch. Did you have these files m Mr. Schine's office? 

Mr! CoHN. I think he did have some there, yes. 

Mr. Welch. He did some there? 

Mr. CoHN. Yes. 4.-n;„9 

Mr. Welch. Couldn't those files have been at Dix^ 
Mr Cohn Mr. Welch, to answer you on this if you want to say 

been one way of doinp it. I didn't do it that way, and I d,dn t see 
^Tr^m^H^Yfut^nrnportance of keeping Mr. Schine's ab- 

"■S? CoH'i™NrSfl"doffsee the importance the way you put it 
vXt k involved here mostly would be a Sunday when he would 
braro^d doing n°S and I di'd,vt see anything that would compel 
TYip to o-o down and move in at Fort Uix. o j o 

"MrrWELCH. Did you always work all of eveiTbimc^a^^ 

Mr Cohn. I can't say we always worked all ol any clay, sir. 

Mr" Welch. Did you always work a part of any Sunday? 

Mr' CoHN. I think that is true. I think we did, sir. 

Mr. Welch. You always worked a part i 

Mr WELCH.^Did you have some files at Mr. Schine's home? 

Mr Cnn-fi Yes • I think there were some. -r^ ^ . 

Mr! W?LCH Then your files are divided as follows: Part at your 

home, is that right? 

Mr. CoHN. That is right, sir. 

Mr Welch. Part at Schine's home i 

Mr. CoHN. That is right, sir. 

Mr Welch. Part at Schme s oltice? 

^I^- &JdM It'^x&e you, Mr. Cohn, that that was a some- 
what "awkward and not too efficient arrangement ^ 

m/cohn No sir. We did the best we could with it 

Mr WeS^h I understand. What would you do if you worked 
a whUe in^our home and needed a file that was m Schme s home 

Mr Cohn We worked a while at my home and needed something 
at his home and we would go down and get it or the next day 

Mr. Welch. How far apart ? 

■\/[^ PnTT-v Meet at his place. About 5 minutes. . 

Mr wlcH About 5 minutes. If you wanted somethmg m his 
office that was part of the files, then what ? _ 

Mr. Cohn. I suppose the same thing, sir. 

Mr* Welch. How far away was that? , 

Mr". Cohn. His office ? About 4 minutes, 3 minutes. 

Mr. Welch. Walking or in a car ? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2413 

Mr. CoHN. Pardon me, sir? 

Mr. Welch. Walking or in a car ? 

Mr. CoHN. By car. 

Mr. Welch. It made a somewhat cumbersome method dividing 
these files into three heaps that way, didn't it? 

Mr. CoHN. No, sir; there was nothing too cumbersome about the 
method. We got the work done. 

Mr. Welch. I have here — How much time have I left? 

Senator Mundt. About 3 minutes, Mr. Welch. 

Mr. Welch. Do I hold in my hand, Mr. Cohn, if you recognize it 
from that distance, the work that was done ? 

Mr. Cohn. You hold in your hand, sir, I believe, some papers bear- 
ing on the three interim reports which Schine helped write, plus the 
sections of the annual report which he helped write. There is an 
explanation which goes with each of the papers. I gave it to Mr. 
Jenkins' Staff, and I wnll be glad to give it to you, sir. 

Mr. Welch. I don't know how to handle this from this distance. 

Mr. CoHN. I can follow you pretty well. 

Mr. Welch. You probably know it. 

Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Can you recognize the document that I now hold up ? 

Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. What is that document ? 

Mr. Cohn. That, sir, is a preliminary draft of what became the 
report, interim report of this subcommitee entitled "State Department 
Information Centers." That was one of the things done at the 
beginning. 

Mr. Welch. That has whose — that has six pages, as I turn them 
over. 

Mr. Cohn. Whatever you say, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Who wrote that ? 

Mr. Cohn. I believe Dave Schine did. 

Mr. Welch. At what time ? 

Mr. Cohn. I don't know, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Prior to his induction ? 

Mr. Cohn. I don't know. It might very well have been. 

Mr. Welch. You wouldn't say it was afterward? 

Mr. Cohn. No ; I can't say that, sir. 

Mr. Welch. So the first document I pick up is one that he might 
very well have done before his induction ? 

Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Do you recognize this document ? 

Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. What is that? 

Mr. Cohn. That, sir, is the draft of the Voice of America engineer- 
ing project subtitled "Baker West, Baker East," which was prepared 
by somebody else on the staff in the hope that we could avoid having 
Schine do the job. That draft was submitted to Senator McCarthy. 
He went over it. I think you will find some of his notations on it 
and some x's drawn through it. After he had gone through it he 
returned it and said it was not done the way he wanted it done. We 
then spoke to the gentleman who had written it and he said we had 
been placing an impossible burden on him because he was not with 



2414 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

the committee when the investigation was conducted. Schine was. 
Schine knew the facts. Let him write the report. ^. . a 4t. 

After that, at Senator McCarthy's instructions, I gave that draft 
to Schine, and using that and other things, he wrote up a draft of that 
Baker West-Baker East report. , j -.n «. 

Mr. Welch. So the document that I now hold in my hand, 19 pages 
in length, was not done by Schine at all ? 

Mr. CoHN. No, sir. That was a document 

Mr. Welch. That is your answer? 

Mr. CoHN. Which was rejected. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mtjndt. Have you a point of order i 

Senator McCarthy. We find again that I must leave for my office 
temporarily. If my 10 minutes comes up while I am gone I will give 

it to Mr. Welch. 

Senator Mundt. Very good. 

Mr^'^wt'LOT.* The^iext document that I hold in my hand can be 
recognized from that distance, can it ? 

Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. What is that? o .^ a ^ j ^4. -p fi,« o« 

Mr. CoHN. That, sir, is a part of one of the final drafts of the an- 
nual report of this subcommittee. 

I^Ir. Welch. This, I observe, has 23 pages , , , ., , , .^„. 

Mr. CoHN. That is only a part. I think the actual draft had about 

'^\^I? Welch. It is what we find in the files that you produced, sir 
Mr! CoHN. Yes, sir. On that particular draft we have about— i 
don't know, whatever there is. _ , i -x- i,-„-u t 

Mr Welch. And on the front page is some handwriting which 1 
take to be Schine's. Am I right, or am I incorrect ? 
Mr Cohn. You are right. That is Schine s. 
Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch's time has expired. 
Any questions to my right? 
Any questions to my left ? 
Senator Dirksen. Mr. Chairman, I have one. 
Senator Mundt. Senator Dirksen. 

Senator Dirksen. Mr. Cohn, I have been thinking about the con- 
Tenience of working at Fort Dix, and your "}sistence that you have 
your own way to work. It occurred to me that if the substance of 
Mr Stevens' conversation with Mr. Schine on October 21, a telephone 
conversation, in which he mentioned that he wanted to utilize these 
unusual talents of Mr. Schine, had eventuated so that Mr. Schine 
might have been assigned to the Pentagon, would you have moved your 
office to the Pentagon to work ? 

Mr. Cohn. I would not have, sir, no. 
Senator Dirksen. That is all. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch, you have 10 minutes, again. 
Mr Welch. I was showing you this, I think, third document, which 
you say Mr. Schine did not prepare in the first instance, is that right i 

'"^Mr.'^ciHN. What he did with this, Mr. AVelch, he wrote— I think 
he primarily wrote three or four sections m that document. He 
worked on the entire document, though. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2415 

Ann' 2^^''^'^' ^^^' ^"^ ^^'"^^ preparation was before he went into the 

Mr. CoHN. No, I think that was after, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Do you mean to say that there are three or four para- 
graphs in this document which I hold that Mr. Schine prepared after 
he went into the Army ? ^ ^ 

. ,^^''- H"^^^^- ^^^?, sir. I think that-not paragraphs, it was divided 
into sections. There were 2 or 3 sections or 3 or 4, which it occurs 
to me he did work on. 

Mr. Welch. We]], not as they appear in what I liold here, do they « 

Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir. I think he probably-what you have there 
IS m mimeographed form, I believe. -^ J 

Mr. Welch. That is right. 

Mr. CoHN. That is pretty close to one of the final drafts. 

Mr. \\ ELCH. AVell, I would like to know, sir, whether or not Mr 
fechine actually wrote any portion of what I hold in my hand. 

Mr. CoHN. If that contains the subsections on the engineerincr proi- 
ects, on the information centers, and on the information agency proper 
the answer would be yes, sir. If it doesn't, the answe? would be I 
clon t know. 

Mr. Welch. If I tell you that I turn it over and do not find the 
matters you mentioned 

Senator Mundt. May the Chair inquire whether Mr. Cohn can tell 
from that, if he gets a quick look at it ? 

Mr. Welch. I think the best way to be to hand it to you, Mr. Cohn 

Skanded ! ''""^ '^'"''^ ^''''"^^' "' ™"^' '"'"'"^ "*' ^""'^ ^'■^- tl^^^^' 

Senator Mundt. This will be time out. 

Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir. Page 16 

Mr. Welch. 16? 

Mr. Cohn. 17. 

Mr. Welch. 17? 

Mr. Cohn. 18. 

Mr. Welch. 18. 

[Document returned.] 

Mr. Cohn. The section on those pages. 

Senator Mundt. Time back in. 

Mr. Welch. Now, we have found in this document which I have 
picked up pages 16 17 and 18 headed "Baker West, Baker East," 
wh ch are two and a half pages that were actually done by Mr. Cohn, 
IS that right? Or,byMr. Scliine? ^ • ^onii, 

Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir. Then there were two other 

Mr. Welch. Did they find their way into the annual report as they 
appear here? ^ *' 

Mr. Cohn. I just don't know, sir. I haven't checked it. I would 
say substantially— there were probably some chan^^es 

Mr. Welch. Some changes? ^ 

Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Made by someone other than Mr. Schine? 

Mr. Cohn. Maybe yes, maybe no. 

Mr. Welch. Now, the next document, and the next to the last, I 
snow you and see if you recognize that. 



2416 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr. CoHN. Could you hand that up to me? [Document handed.] 

Senator Mundt. Tmie out. ,^, . . <» j.u 

Mr. CoHN. I don't know what this is from. This is a-one of the 

drafts on the Baker East-Baker West report. I can't tell you that 

this was worked on by Mr. Schine. 
Mr. Welch. You can't tell? 

Mr. CoHN. No. If I had to say one way or the other, I would say 

'' CwiLr pTobably not. In the last document I hold in my hand, 
and I think I know myself, at least I have been advised, sir, that is 
jour handwriting. 

Mr. wTi^H.^I didn't I^you what it was. That has got 11 pages in 

^X!"cot." W&atever it is there. As I recall it, .sir that was an 
outline which Private Schine and I drew up originally before we 
started mapping out the two interim reports. 

Mr. Welch. When is originally? a r.-f ^n 

Mr CoHN. I think that was probably mid-November, end of No- 

^'m%':^wlenm^^^ really go into what you would call your 

Tr.'coH^;^ltrid say December was the principal month on that, 
and tiie first 2 weeks in January. j. ^-c a ^n,.f 

Mr. Welch. December 16 is the date that you testified you went 
into the report writing stage ; did you not ? , . , ^i i „„ 

Mr CoHN. I would say you are right, that certainly, the work was 
intensified sav durin- December and the first 2 weeks m January. 
l"Sl t^?e^4ortslinally got out by the 25th or 26th of January 

Ml Welch. Now, Mr. Cohn, I hold in my hand the work product 
cf Mr. Schine that was handed by you to Mr. Horowitz ; is that right i 
[Indicating.] 

Mr. CoHN. Yes; that • , i -i i f T?^vf "niv? 

Mr. Welch. Covering the period while he was at Fort Dix« 

Mr. wTL^H.^lnd''after your having examined it, we find pages 16 
17 and 18, two and a half pages of one of the documents that Schine 
actually produced ; is that right ? ^ 
Mr CoHN. That is one of the things, sir. ^fi,;„„ 

Mr! Welch. And that is the whole works, except for something 
about witness lists? 

Mr. WElcH^AnT^omething about having done some work on the 
interim and the annual report? -jtt t t, 

Mr CoHN. Well, you pass over it pretty fast Mr. Welch. 
Mr. Welch. Well, that embraces it ; doesn t it i 
ATi' CoTTN It wasn't that easy. , . . 

Mr. Welch Now, the work on the interim and annual report you 

''mV Conr No' "l"told you we did not keep drafts However, you 
do h'Ve S sir a draft of one-one of the final drafts of the annual 
renoJrwitlTMr Schine's notes and comments all through it, I believe 
^Mr We ca . Now, Mr. Cohn, let me ask you this: In addition to 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2417 

working on these matters when you were with Mr. Schine, did you, 
on what you might call after hours, do anything socially with him? 

Mr. CoHN. While he was down at Dix, sir? 

Mr. Welch. Yes. 

Mr. CoHN. Well, I don't know what you call socially. He did have 
dinner. He ate, and he went to sleep, I imagine. He had dinner at 
my house with my family and myself on a number of occasions when 
we worked. I think once or twice I ate dinner with his family and 
with him. I assume you don't mean that by socially. I recall one 
occasion while he was down at Dix when we went on a double-date for 
dinner, with two girls. That was, I believe, in January. 

Mr. W^ELCH. In January? W^here did you go? 

Mr. CoHx. We had dinner at the — at a hotel, the Drake Hotel, the 
Drake Room. 

Mr. Welch. January 10? 

Mr. CoHN. Pardon me, sir ? 

Mr. Welch. January 10 ? 

Mr. Cohx. Your sources of information are better than mine. 

Mr. Welch. I even know what you spent. You had $32.96 worth 
of dinner and $5.85 worth of drinks. Does that sound all right? 

Mr. Cohn. Pardon me, sir ? 

Mr. Welch. Does that sound all right ? 

Mr. Cohn. It sounds a little high since I am not going with the girl 
I had out any more. 

Mr. Welch. I know, Mr. Cohn, what you spent on the night of 
December 31. Do you ? 

Mr. Cohn. December 31? 

Mr. Welch. Yes. 

Mr. Cohn. That was New Year's Eve? 

Mr. Welch. Yes. 

Mr. Cohn. I spent nothing, as far as I know. 

Mr. Welch. Well, then, the Stork Club cheated you out of $27— 
I beg your pardon. I beg your pardon. I have the wrong date. Let 
me ask you where you were on the night of January 2. 

Mr. Cohn. I thought you did have the wrong date. 

Mr. Welch. How about January 2d ? 

Mr. Cohn. January 2d ? Let's see, that was a — that was a Saturday 
night ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Saturday night? 

Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Do you want to be reminded how much you spent at 
the Stork Club? 

Mr. Cohn. I am trying to think who I was out with first. 

Mr. Welch. May I suggest you may have been with Dave. 

Mr. Cohn. You might suggest it, sir, but I would tell you, you are 
wrong. 

Mr. Welch. And if you weren't with Dave, do you know where 
Dave was on that weekend ? 

Mr. Cohn. On that weekend ? 

Mr. Welch. Yes. 

Mr. Cohn. I don't know where he was. I know he was working on 
that weekend. 

46620*— 54— pt. 59 4 



2418 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr. Welch. How do you know ? Because he told you he was ? 

Mr. CoHN. No. Because I know what work he did, and you have 
some of it right before you. 

Mr. Welch. Where was he working on that weekend? 

Mr. Corn. On that weekend ? 

JNIr. Welch. Yes. 

Mr. CoiiN. He worked with me on the night of December 31. He 
worked with me, as I recall it, on the afternoon of December 31. He 
Avorked with me on Saturday, whatever the date would be — January 
1. And I think he worked with me on Sunday. 

Mr. Welch. Do you know where Dave was on December 7, when he 
was away from Dix ? 

Mr. CoHN. On December 7? 

Mr. AVelch. Yes. That is Monday, December 7. 

Mr. CoHN. I am looking at General Ryan's chart here. It says "on 
pass from 6 to 10 : 45, pass to Trenton." I imagine he was in Trenton. 

Mr. Welch. That is right. Were you with him? 

Mr. CoHN. Very probably, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Yes. At the Stacy -Trent Hotel? 

Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir, I think that it is. I remember General Ryan 
recommended that hotel when we saw him the first time, and I think we 
went over there on two or three occasions. 

Mr. Welch. Were you busily at work on committee matters there ? 

Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Were your files partly at your home? 

Mr. Cohn. No. 

Mr. Welch. And partly at Schine's? 

Mr. CoHN. No, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And partly at Schine's office ? 

Mr. CoHN. No, sir. 

Mr. Welch. You didn't have any files with you ? 

Mr. CoHN. I think we probably had some papers with us. 

Mr. Welch. You had some papers with you ? 

Mr. Cohx. I think another staff member was there. 

Mr. Welch. Yes. It would appear that there were two at dinner. 
Were you one of the two ? 

Mr. CoHN. It very well might have been, sir. I think there prob- 
ably was one other person. 

Mr. Welch. On December 4 

Mr. CoHN. I think Jim Juliana 

Mr. Welch. Do you know where 

Mr. CoHN. Jim Juliana was down one night, and I think Frank 
Carr another night, when we were at the Stacy-Trent. 

Mr. Welch. Do you know where you were on the night of Decem- 
ber 4? 

Mr. CoiiN. Let me look at the chart. 

Senator IVIundt. Counsel's time has expired. You may au'-uer the 
question. 

Mr. Coiix. I don't remember offhand, sir. 

Senator Mundt. Any questions from Senators to my right ? To my 
left? Senator McCarthy is not here. Mr. Welch, you have another 
10 minutes. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2419 

Mr. Welch. May I suggest to you, sir, that you were at the Stork 
Club on that night? 

Mr. CoHN. Very probably. 

Mr. Welch. And spent $25.75. 

Mr. CoHN. Could be. 

Mr. Welch, By the way, I have never been there. That must be 
an expensive place, isn't it? 

Mr. Cohn. It depends on how many people you have with you, sir. 
The place I go in the Stork Club is something called the Cub Room. 
1 am afraid it is not quite as dramatic as it might sound. It is a room 
where there is no music or dancing. It is a pretty quiet place. You 
go in there and can get something to eat. 

Mr. Welch. I will bet I couldn't get in, could I, Mr. Cohn? 

Mr. CoHN. Well, they cater to television celebrities, Mr. Welch, and 
I think you could. 

Mr. Welch. Do you know where Dave was on the night of December 
3 ? That is just the night before. 

Mr. CoHN. No, I don't. 

Mr. Welch. Were you with him ? 

Mr. Cohn. I might very well have been. 

Mr. Welch. Were you working ? 

Mr. CoHN. If it were Thursday night and I were with him, we 
would be working ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. You were working. Were you working at the Stacy- 
Trent Hotel? 

Mr. CoHN. Yes ; I think that 

Mr. Welch. Did you work your way through $21.35 worth of 
dinner? 

Mr. Cohn. Well, Mr. Welch, if you are trying to establish that I 
ate dinner, you will find I do that every night in the week. 

Mr. Welch. I agree, sir. But it is quite a chore to eat your way 
through $21.35 worth of dinner. Did you eat your way through that 
much, you and Schine ? 

Mr. Cohn. If Mr. Carr was along, I would say it is probable. 

Mr. Welch. In justice to Mr. Carr, who is not in the room, and to 
you and to Dave Schine, I would like to say that there were three 
people there. Let's say the big, strong, hungry, silent man was with 
you. 

On December 1, do you know where you were ? 

Mr. Cohn. No, I don't. 

Mr. Welch. Would it surprise you to know that Mr. Schine was 
at the Stacy-Trent Hotel ? 

Mr. Cohn. No, it wouldn't at all. 

Mr. Welch. Were you with him ? 

Mr. Cohn. I would think so, sir. I know that 

Mr. Welch. Were you at work ? 

Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir. I think there were 

Mr. Welch. Did you eat your way through $14.95 worth of dinner? 

Mr. Cohn. Fourteen dollars ? 

Mr. Welch. Right. 

Mr. Cohn. It sounds fine, sure. 

Mr. Welch. Where were you on November 30 ? 



2420 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr. CoHN. I see a blank on General Ryan's chart, so I have noth- 

^^ilr Welch. There was no pass granted on that night, but the record 
shows that Mr. Schine was at the Stacy-Trent Hotel. Were you there i 

Mr. CoHN. It is very possible I or one of the other staff members. 

Mr. Welch. And at work? . 

Mr CoHN. Yes, sir. I think, Mr. Welch, to summarize, there were 
about, I think, 3 or 4 or 5 occasions when we did go- Jim J^^bana, 
Frank Carr, and myself and Dave Schine-to the Stacy-Trent Hotel, 
which had been recommended to us by General Ryan. 

Mr. Welch. Could you get anything to eat on the fort it you tried < 

Mr. CoHN. I tried it once, sir. 

Mr. Welch. You tried it once ? 

Mr. CoHN. Yes. n v v» 

Mr Welch. It would have saved some time, wouldn t it < 

Mr.CoHN. It might have, and it might not have. 

I^Ir. Welch. You and Dave could have dug into the woik even 

^^MrCoHN"^T think this was before General Ryan had made this 

conference room available, sir. 
Mr. Welch. On the 28th-29th of November, were you with Dave at 

the Drake Hotel in New York ? 
Mr Cohn. I don't recall. ,, ^ , ^i i • 

Mr. Welch. You must have been at work on that day with him, 

weren't you 'i , ^ , « 

Mr. CoHN. On the 28th and 29th ? 
Mr. Welch. Yes. ,  , ^ 

Mr Cohn. If it was a weekend I would say, yes, sir. 
Mr. Welch. On the 29th, which is what, Sunday? 

Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir. , ^-,„ .o ^i £^ a 

Mr Welch. Did you eat your way through $16.48 worth of food 
at tlie Drake Hotel, plus $3.46 for drinks ? 

Mr. Cohn. It could very well be. • i . t 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Cohn, I think m fairness to you, sir, because 1 
somewhat admire you for it, I think you do not drink, is that right ( 

Mr. Cohn. I drink very occasionally, sir. ^ ^ ^, . , .^ . 

ii.. Mr. Welch. I had heard you never drank and I think it is some- 
what in your favor. ni^Li* 

On November 28 were you and Mr. Schine at the Stork Club ? 

Mr Cohn. Mr. Welch, as far as I know and I am quite sure ot this, 
Mr. Schine was not at the Stork Club at any time while he was sta- 
tioned at Fort Dix — period. , ^„ , , ^ i 

Mr. Welch. Then if you were at the Stork Club he vvasn t work- 
in gr with you? , . , . 

Mr Cohn. I think that would be a very fair conclusion. 

Mr. Welch. Where do you suppose he was busily working on the 
ni<^ht of Noveanber 28 when you were at the Stork Chib^ 
\ Mr. Cohn. Tf I was at the Stork Club, sir, he was very probably 

home asleep. 

Mr Welch. Home asleep but not at work i 
Mr. Cohn. I don't know whether he was or not 

Mr. Welch. x\nd not at Fort Dix, you know that don t you i 

Mr. Cohn. Pardon me ? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2421 

Mr. Welch. And not at Fort Dix. You know he was not at Fort 
Dix on November 28 from noon until midnight ? 

Mr. CoHN. If it was one of the occasions when he was not at Fort 
Dix, I am sure he was not at Fort Dix. 

Mr. Welch. Would you have pulled him out from Fort Dix from 
noon on November 28 to midnight November 29 unless you wanted to 
work with him ? 

Mr. CoHN. Sir, every time he was off I know he worked. In addi- 
tion to working 

Mr. Welch. My question is, would you have pulled him out of 
Fort Dix on the 28th of November at noon and kept him out until the 
29th of November at midnight unless you wanted to woi'k with him. 

Mr. CoHN". No. He did committee work. I am sure of that. 

Mr. Welch. Of course. You couldn't possibly have pulled him 
out unless you wanted to Avork with him, could you ? 

Mr. CoHN. No, sir. 

Mr. Welch. You wouldn't have gone romping off to the Stork Club 
without him, would you ? 

Mr. CoHN. Well, I am afraid I not only would, but I did, sir, 

Mr. Welch. Left him alone ? 

Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Where did you leave him ? 

Mr. CoHN. Pardon me? 

Mr. Welch. Where did you leave him ? 

Mr. CoHN". Presumably at his house. 

Mr. Welch. At his house ? 

Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir. I know this, sir : He did not go to the Stork 
Club or a nightclub at any time while he was stationed down at Fort 
Dix. 

Mr. Welch. Is there a restaurant in New York called 

Mr. Cohn. I did. And at times I would stop in there on the way 
home with something late at night and I never saw anything wrong 
in that then and I don't see anything wrong in it now. 

Mr. Welch. Is there a restaurant in New York called Sardi's? 

Mr. Cohn. Yes ; there is. 

Mr. Welch. On November 13 until November 15 Schine was off at 
Dix. Was he with you ? 

Mr. Cohn. On part of the occasion undoubtedly he was, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Did you go to Sardi's? 

Mr. Cohn. Did I go to Sardi's? 

Mr. Welch. With him. 

Mr. Cohn. No, sir. 

Mr. Welch. You did not? 

Mr. Cohn. I am sure I did not. 

Mr. Welch. How much of that time when he was off after hours 
November 15 until 10 p. m. was he with you? 

Mr. Cohn. This is on the 13th to the 15th? 

Mr. Welch. Yes ; November 13. 

Mr. Cohn. I have no idea. 

Mr. Welch. I just want to go back for a moment to New Year's 
Eve, Mr. Cohn. 

Mr. Cohn. Surely. 

Mr. Welch. You remember, Mr. Cohn, that Private Schine was 
entitled to have either Christmas or New Year's off ? 



2422 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr. CoHN. I heard some testimony about that. 

Mr. Welch. But not both ? 

Mr. CoHN. I heard some testimony about that ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And you were with him on New Year's Eve; were 
you not? 

Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. At a time a telegram was received ? 

Mr. Cohn. No, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Did you know about his receiving a telegram ? 

Mr. CoHN. That was not New Year's Eve, sir; that was in the 
afternoon. 

Mr. Welch. In the afternoon ? 

]\fr. Cohn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Of the last day of the year? 

]Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Is that right? 

Mr. Cohn. You are referring to the incident which General Kyan 
described on the stand about the mixup in that weekend and the tele- 
gram and my phone call down to Lieutenant Blount? 

Mv. Welch. That is right. 

Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir; that was the afternoon of December 31. 

Mr. Welch. The afternoon? 

Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And you telephoned and straightened out the mixup 
by saying, "Private Schine and I are busily at work"? 

Mr. Cohn. Yes. I called down 

Mr. Welch. Well, the answer is "Yes." 

Mr. Cohn. He got the telegram and after he told me he had gotten 
it, I called down there; yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And said, "Private Schine and I are busily at work"? 

Mr. Cohn. I don't think I went into any detail about busily at work, 
sir. I know to help you, that we did work ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. The only reason that he was out of Dix that after- 
noon and night, and the next 2 days as well, was because of the press 
of committee business? 

Mr. Cohn. He was 

Mr. Welch. Is the answer "yes" or "no" ? 

Mr. Cohn. The answer is "yes," sir, he was out to do committee 
work and that is what he did. 

Mr. Welch. Did you finally decide that New Year's night that 
you could at some time knock off and have a little fun ? 

Mr. Cohn. Did I, sir? 

Mr. Welch. Yes. 

Mr. Cohn. Well, I had this situation, Mr. Welch. 

Mr. Welch. The question is. Did you finally decide th:it you could 
knock off and have a little fun? 

Mr. Cohn. I am trying to tell you, sir. I had had this situation. 
I had had a serious illness in my family shortly before that. I did 
not go out ; I stayed home on New Year's P^ve. Very late in the night, 
I would say about 2 or 3 in the morning 

Mr. Welch. Interrupting your work? 

Mr. Cohn. No, I had finished working, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Yes? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2423 

Mr. CoHN. About 2 or 3 in the morning I went over to a friend's 
home for an hour or two and then I came home. 

Mr. Welch. Was Dave with you? 

Mr. CoHN. No, he was not. 

Mr. Welch. Where was Dave ? 

Mr. CoHN. He was at home, I suppose. 

Mr. Welch. You suppose ? Did you see him that evening ? 

Mr. CoHN. Yes, I did see him. 

Mr. Welch. Where did you see him ? 

Mr. CoHN. At my house. 

Mr. Welch. Until what time? 

Mr. Cohn. I think he left around 12 : 30 ; something like that. 

Mr. Welch. Were you busily at work until then, Mr. Cohn ? 

Mr. Cohn. I am afraid we were, sir ; yes. 

Mr. Welch. It seems to me almost above and beyond the call of 
duty to work so late and so hard. 

Mr. Cohx. We, on New Year's Eve, sir, we did work on that par- 
ticular draft of the annual report which you have before you. 

Mr. Welch. Now, Mr. Cohn, when you consider what I have gone 
over with you in your testimony, and the work product which I hold 
in my hand, do you wish seriously to tell this committee that it was 
necessary to pull Schine out of Fort Dix time after time to produce 
what we have got here ? 

Mr. Cohn. Mr. 

Mr. Welch. Just "Yes"' or "No," Was it necessary ? 

Mr. Cohn. The answer, sir, is "Yes," sir. If it were not necessary, 
it would not have been done, and the further answer, sir, is you, of 
course, have not given a complete picture. 

Mr. Welch. Can you tell us whether or not you know who was 
with Mr. Schine on New Years Eve ? 

Mr. Cohn. He was at my house. 

Mr. Welch. Was anyone with him ? 

Mr. Cohn. Pardon me, sir? 

Mr. W^ELCH. Was anyone with him ? 

Mr. Cohn. I will tell you everyone who was there. I was there 

Senator Mundt. Mr, Welch's time has expired, but you may con- 
tinue to answer the question. 

Mr. Cohn. Sure. I was there, two or three friends of mine were 
there. 

Mr. Welch. I won't ask you their names. Were they men or 
women ? 

Mr. Cohn. There was a couple, a friend of mine and his wife, there 
was another friend of mine, a man, Dave Schine, and there was a 
young lady who is a friend of Dave Schine's who came up later in 
the evening. 

Mr. Welch. I will not ask you to identify her. 

Mr. Cohn. You know who she is already, sir. You had her in 
executive session. 

Mr. Welch. Yes, but I am not going to ask you to identify her, 
unless you wish me to. 

Mr. Cohn. All right. 

Mr. Welch. At what time did she aii'ive ? 

Mr. Cohn. I don't know, sir. 



2424 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr. Welch. Tell us the best you can. 

Mr. CoHN. The best I can, 1 would say — it was about 10, or some- 
thing like that. 

Senator Mundt. Your time has expired. We will get back to you 
quickly, I believe. Any questions of Senators to my left, or to my 
right ? 

Senator McCarthy ? 

All right, Mr. Welch, you have another 10 minutes. 

Mr. Welch. I want to come back, ]\Ir. Cohn, to the item that we 
were talking about this morning. I gathered, to sum it up a little, 
that as early as the spring, which must mean March or April, you 
knew about this situation of possible subversives and security risivs, 
and even spies at Fort Monmouth, is that right ? 

Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And I think you have used the word "disturbing," 
that you found it a disturbing situation ? 

Mr.CoHN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And you had, so to speak, only a sort of glimpse in it, 
you couldn't tell how big it was or how little it was, could you ? 

Mr. CoHN. Not at the beginning, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And you probably knew enough about Fort Monmouth 
or found out quickly enough about Fort Monmouth, to know it was a 
sensitive place, didn't you ? 

Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And 1 am sure the knowledge that you had was a 
source, Mr. Cohn, to one in your position, of some anxiety for the 
Nation's safety, wasn't it? 

Mr. CoHN. It was one situation among a number of serious situa- 
tions ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Well, I don't know how many worries you have, but 
I am sure that was, to you, a disturbing and alarming situation. 

Mr. CoHN. Well, sir, it was certainly serious enough for me to want 
to check into it and see how many facts we could check out and 

Mr. Welch. And stop it as soon as possible? 

Mr. CoHN. Well, it was a question of developing the ; 

Mr. Welch. But the thing that we have to do is stop it, isn't it? 

Mr. Cohn. Stop what, sir.? 

Mr. Welch. Stop the risk. 

Mr. CoHN. Stop the risk, sir? 

Mr. Welch. Yes. 

Mr. CoHN. Yes, what we had to do was stop the risk and 

Mr. Welch. That is right, get the people suspended or get them 
on trial or tire them or do something, that is right, isn't it? 

Mr. CoHN. Partly, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Sir? 

Mr. CoHN. Partly, sir. 

Mr. Welch. But it is primarily the thing, isn't it? 

Mr. CoiiN. Well, the thing came up 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Cohn, if I told you now that we had a bad situa- 
tion at Monmouth, you would want to cure it by sundown, if you 
could, wouldn't you ? 

Mr. CoHN. I am sure I couldn't, sir. 

Mr. Welch. But you would like to, if you could ? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2425 



Mr. CoHN. Sir- 

Mr. Welch. Isn't that right ? 
Mr. CoHN. No, what I want- 



Mr. Welch. Answer me. That must be right. It has to be right. 

Mr. CoHN. What I would like to do and what can be done are two 
different things. 

Mr. Welch. Well, if you could be God and do anything you wished, 
you would cure it by sundown, wouldn't you ? " 

Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And you were that alarmed about Monmouth ? 

Mr. CoHN. It doesn't go that way. 

Mr. Welch. I am just asking how it does go. When you find there 
are Communists and possible spies in a place like Monmouth, you 
must be alarmed, aren't you ? 

Mr. CoHN. Now you have asked me how it goes, and I am going 
to tell you. 

Mr. Welch. No; I didn't ask you how it goes. I said aren't you 
alarmed when you find it is there ? 

Mr. CoiiN. Whenever I hear that people have been failing to act 
on FBI information about Comunists, I do think it is alarming, I 
would like the Communists out, and I would like to be able to advise 
this committee of why people who have the responsibility for getting 
them out haven't carried out their responsibility. 

Mr. Welch. Yes. but what you want first of all, Mr. Cohn, and 
let's be fair with each other, what you want first of all, if it is within 
your power, is to get them out, isn't it ? , 

Mr. Cohn. I don't know if I draw a distinction as to what ought to 
come first, Mr. Welch. 

Mr. Welch. It certainly ranks terrifically high, doesn't it? 

Mr. Cohn. It was a situation that I thought should be developed, 
and we did develop it. 

Mr. Welch. When did you first meet Secretary Stevens ? 

Mr. Cohn. I first met Secretary Stevens September 7 I believe 
it was. 

Mr. Welch. September 7? Where were you, sir? 

Mr. Cohn. Washington. 

Mr. Welch. Where in Washington? 

Mr. Cohn, I don't remember where I was when I met him. It 
was in this building, either at lunch or in a hearing room, some- 
thing like that. 

Mr. Welch. And you knew that he was the new Secretary of the 
Army ? 

Mr. Cohn. Yes ; I did know he was the Secretary of the Army. 

Mr. Welch. And you must have had high hopes about him, didn't 
you ? 

Mr. Cohn. I don't think I gave it too much thought, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Anybody wants the Secretary of the Army to do well, 
no matter what party he is from, do we not? 

Mr. Cohn. Surely, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And on September 7, when you met him, you had in 
your bosom this alarming situation about Monmouth, is that right? 

Mr. Cohn. Yes; I knew about Monmouth, then. Yes, sir. 



2426 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr. Welch. And you didn't tug at his lapel and say, "Mr. Secre- 
tary, I know something about Monmouth that won't let me sleep 
nights"? You didn't do it, did you? 

Mr, CoHN. I don't — as I testified, Mr. Welch, I don't know whether 
I talked to Mr. Stevens about it then or not. I know that on the 
16th I did. Whether I talked to him on the Tth or not, is something 
I don't know. 

Mr. Welch. Don't you know that if you had really told him what 
your fears were, and substantiated them to any extent, he could have 
jumped in the next day with suspensions? 

Mr. CoHN. No, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Did you then have any reason to doubt his fidelity ? 

Mr. Cohn. No, sir. 

Mr. Welch. Or his honor ? 

Mr. CoHN. No. 

Mr. Welch. Or his patriotism ? 

Mr. CoHN. No. 

Mr. Welch. And yet, Mr. Colin, you didn't tell him what you knew ? 

Mr. Cohn. I don't know whether I did or not. I told him some of 
the things I knew, sir. I don't think I told him everything I knew on 
the first occasion. After the first 2 or 3 occasions, I think he had a 
pretty good idea of what we were working on. 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Cohn, tell me once more : Every time you learn of 
a Communist or a spy anyAvhere, is it your policy to get them out as 
fast as possible ? 

Mr. Cohn. Surely, we want them out as fast as possible, sir. 

Mr. Welch. And whenever you learn of one from now on, Mr. 
Cohn, I beg of you, will you tell somebody about them quick ? 

Mr. Cohn. Mr. Welch, with great respect, I work for the committee 
here. They know how we go about handling situations of Communist 
infiltration and failure to act on FBI information about Communist 
infiltration. If they are displeased with the speed with which I and 
the group of men who work with me proceed, if they are displeased 
with the order in which we move, I am sure they will give me appro- 
I)riate instructions along those lines, and I will follow any which they 

give me. 

Mr. Welch. May I add my small voice, sir, and say whenever 
you know about a subversive or a Communist or a spy, please hurry. 
Will you remember those words? 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Cohn. Mr. Welch, I can assure you, sir, as far as I am con- 
cerned, and certainly as far as the chairman of this committee and 
the members, and the members of the staff, are concerned, we are a 
small group, but we proceed as expeditiously as is humanly possible 
to get out Communists and traitors and to bring to light the mechanism 
by which they have been permitted to remain where they were for so 
long a period of time. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, in view of that question 

Senator Mundt. Have you a point of order ? 

Senator McCarthy. Not exactly, Mr. Chairman, but in view of Mr. 
Welch's request that the information be given once we know of anyone 
who might be performing any work for the Communist Party, I think 
we should tell him that he has in his law firm a young man named 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2427 

Fisher whom he recommended, incidentally, to do work on this com- 
mittee, who has been for a number of years a member of an organiza- 
tion which was named, oh, years and years ago, as the legal bulwark 
of the Communist Party, an organization which always swings to the 
defense of anyone who dares to expose Communists. I certainly as- 
sume that Mr. Welch did not know of this young man at the time he 
recommended him as the assistant counsel for this committee, but 
he has such terror and such a great desire to know where anyone is 
located who may be serving the Communist cause, Mr. Welch, that I 
thouglit we should just call to your attention the fact that your Mr. 
Fisher, who is still in your law firm today, whom you asked to have 
down here looking over the secret and classified material, is a member 
of an organization, not named by me but named by various committees, 
named by the Attorney General, as I recall, and I think I quote this 
verbatim, as "the legal bulwark of the Communist Party." He be- 
longed to that for a sizable number of years, according to his own 
admission, and he belonged to it long after it had been exposed as 
the legal arm of the Communist Party. 

Knowing that, Mr. Welch, I just felt that I had a duty to respond 
to your urgent request that before sundov/n, when we know of anyone 
serving the Communist cause, we let the agency know. We are now 
letting you know that your man did belong to this organization for 
either 3 or 4 years, belonged to it long after he was out of law school. 

I don't think you can find anyplace, anywhere, an organization 
which has done more to defend Communists — I am again quoting the 
report — to defend Communists, to defend espionage agents, and to 
aid the Communist cause, than the man whom you originally wanted 
down here at your right hand instead of Mr. St. Clair. 

I have hesitated bringing that up, but I have been rather bored with 
your phony requests to Mr. Cohn here that he personally get every 
Communist out of government before sundown. Therefore, we will 
give you information about the young man in your own organization. 

I am not asking you at this time to explain why you tried to foist 
him on this committee. Whether you knew he was a member of that 
Communist organization or not, I don't know. I assume you did not, 
Mr. Welch, because I get the impression that, while you are quite an 
actor, you play for a laugh, I don't think you have any conception 
of the danger of the Communist Party. I don't think you yourself 
would ever knowingly aid the Communist cause. I think you are 
unknowingly aiding it when you try to burlesque this hearing in 
which we are attempting to bring out the facts, however. 

jNIr. Welch. Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Mr' Welch, the Chair should say he has no recogni- 
tion or no memory of Mr. Welch's recommending either Mr. Fisher 
or anybody else as counsel for this committee. 

I will recognize Mr. Welch. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, I will give you the news story 
on that. 

Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, under these circumstances I must have 
something approaching a personal privilege. 

Senator Mundt. You may have it, sir. It will not be taken out 
of your time. 

Mr. Welch. Senator McCarthy, I did not know — Senator, some- 
times you say "May I have your attention ?" 



2428 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Senator McCarthy. I am listening to you. I can listen with one 
ear. 

Mr., Welch. This time I want you to listen with both. 

Senator McCarthy. Yes. 

Mr. Welch. Senator McCarthy, I think until this moment 

Senator McCarthy. Jim, will you get the news story to the effect 
that this man belonged to this Communist-front organization ? Will 
you get the citations showing that this was the legal arm of the Com- 
munist Party, and the length of time that he belonged, and the fact 
that he was recommended by Mr. Welch ? I think that should be in 
the record. 

Mr. Welch, You won't need anything in the record when I have 
finished telling you this. 

Until this moment, Senator, I think I never really gaged your 
cruelty or your recklessness. Fred Fisher is a young man who went 
to the Harvard Law School and came into my firm and is starting 
what looks to be a brilliant career with us. 

Wlien I decided to work for this committee I asked Jim St. Clair, 
who sits on my right, to be my first assistant. I said to Jim, "Pick 
somebody in the firm who works under you that you would like." 
He chose Fred Fisher and they came down on an afternoon plane. 
That night, when he had taken a little stab at trying to see what the 
case was about, Fred Fisher and Jim St. Clair and I went to dinner 
together. I then said to these two young men, "Boys, I don't know 
anything about you except I have always liked you, but if there is 
anything funny in the life of either one of you that would hurt any- 
body in this case you speak up quick." 

Fred Fisher said, "Mr. Welch, when I was in law school and for a 
period of months after, I belonged to the Lawyers Guild," as you 
have suggested, Senator. He went on to say, "I am secretary of the 
Young Kepublicans League in Newton with the son of Massachusetts' 
Governor, and I have the respect and admiration of my community 
and I am sure I have the respect and admiration of the 25 lawyers 
or so in Hale & Dorr." 

I said, "Fred, I just don't think I am going to ask you to work 
on the case. If I do, one of these days that will come out and go over 
national television and it will just hurt like the dickens." 

So, Senator, I asked him to go back to Boston. 

Little did I dream you could be so reckless and so cruel as to do an 
injury to that lad. It is true he is still with Hale & Dorr. It is 
true that he will continue to be with Hale & Dorr. It is, I regret to 
say, equally true that I fear he shall always bear a scar needlessly in- 
flicted by you. If it were in my power to forgive you for your reck- 
less cruelty, I will do so, I like to think I am a gentleman, but your 
forgiveness will have to come from someone other than me. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy ? 

Senator McCarthy. May I say that Mr. Welch talks about this 
being cruel and reckless. He was just baiting; he has been baiting 
Mr. Cohn here for hours, requesting that Mr. Cohn, before sundown., 
get out of any department of Government anyone who is serving the 
Communist cause. 

I just give this man's record, and I want to say, Mr, Welch, that it 
has been labeled long before he became a member, as early as 1944 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2429 

Mr. Welch. Senator, may we not drop this ? We know he belonged 
to the Lawyers Guild, and Mr. Cohn nods his head at me. I did you, 
I think, no personal injury, Mr. Cohn. 

Mr. Cohn. No, sir. 

Mr. Welch. I meant to do you no personal injury, and if I did, I 
be^ your pardon. 

Let us not assassinate this lad further, Senator. You have done 
enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you 
left no sense of decency ? 

Senator McCarthy. I know this hurts you, Mr. Welch. But I may 
say, Mr. Chairman, on a point of personal privilege, and I would like 
to finish it 

Mr. Welch. Senator, I think it hurts you, too, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. I would like to finish this. 

Mr. Welch has been filibustering this hearing, he has been talking 
day after day about how he wants to get anyone tainted with commu- 
nism out before sundown. I know Mr. Cohn would rather not have 
me go into this. I intend to, however, Mr. Welch talks about any 
sense of decency. If I say anything which is not the truth, then I 
would like to know about it. 

The foremost legal bulwark of the Communist Party, its front organizations, 
and controlled unions, and which, since its inception, has never failed to rally to 
the legal defense of the Communist Party, and individual members thereof, in- 
cluding known espionage agents. 

Now, that is not the language of Senator McCarthy. That is the 
language of the Un-American Activities Committee. And I can go on 
with many more citations. It seems that Mr. Welch is pained so 
deeply he thinks it is improper for me to give the record, the Commu- 
nist-front record, of the man whom he wanted to foist upon this com- 
mittee. But it doesn't pain him at all — there is no pain in his chest 
about the unfounded charges against Mr. Frank Carr ; there is no pain 
there about the attempt to destroy the reputation and take the jobs 
away from the young men who were working in my committee. 

And, Mr. Welch, if I have said anything here which is untrue, then 
tell me. I have heard you and every one else talk so much about laying 
the truth upon the table that when I hear — and it is completely phony, 
Mr. Welch, I have listened to you for a long time — when you say 
"Now, before sundown, you must get these people out of Government," 
I want to have it very clear, very clear that you were not so serious 
about that when you tried to recommend this man for this committee. 

And may I say, Mr. Welch, in fairness to you, I have reason to be- 
lieve that you did not know about his Communist-front record at the 
time you recommended him. I don't think you would have recom- 
mended him to the committee if you knew that. 

I think it is entirely possible you learned that after you recom- 
mended him. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair would like to say again that he does not 
believe that Mr. Welch recommended Mr. Fisher as counsel for this 
committee, because he has through his office all the recommendations 
that were made. He does not recall any that came from Mr. Welch, 
and that would include Mr. Fisher. 

Senator McCarthy. Let me ask Mr. Welch. You brought him 
down, did you not, to act as your assistant ? 



2430 SPECIAL INVESTIGATIOlSr 

Mr. Welch. Mr. McCarthy, I will not discuss this with you fur- 
ther. You have sat within 6 feet of me, and could have asked me 
about Fred Fisher. You have brought it out. If there is a God in 
heaven, it will do neither you nor your cause any good. I will not 
discuss it further. I will not ask Mr. Cohn any more questions. You, 
Mr. Chairman, may, if you will, call the next witness. 

Senator Mundt. Are there any questions? 

Mr. Jenkins. No further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator Mundt. Senator McClellan? 

Senator McClellan. I just want to ask 1 or 2 questions, Mr. Chair- 
man. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair's attention has been called to the fact 
that it is a quarter to four. Shall we have our recess before that, 
Senator McClellan. 

Senator McClellan. That will be all right. 

Senator Mundt. We will have a recess for 5 minutes. 

(Brief recess.) 

Senator Mundt. The committee will resume activities. 

Senator McClellan had the first 10 minutes which we interrupted for 
the customary afternoon recess. 

Mr. Cohn, take the stand. 

Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, I may say this. In view of 
the climax that occurred just before we recessed and in view of the 
fact that I could not possibly conclude any questioning of Mr. Cohn 
until I have had the opportunity to check the files of documents that 
Mr. Schine is supposed to have worked on, I cannot conclude my ques- 
tioning of Mr. Cohn until then. So I withhold any questions for the 
moment until such time as I can get prepared to question about the 
other matters. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair would suggest, then, that Mr. Cohn step 
down temporarily and we call the next witness. We will recall Mr. 
Cohn when members will have had an opportunity to read the 
document. 

Senator Symington ? 

Senator I^ymington. Mr. Chairman, I was not here. Unfortu- 
nately, I was in my office. Based on some of the calls that I have 
received, I would respectfully move that the Chair recess this hearing 
now until tomorrow morning. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair believes we have had enough delays 
without adding another delay of that kind now. We will agree to 
call Mr. Cohn back for any questions that you would like to have, or 
any other member, but I do think Senator McClellan's point is well 
taken. I have not had an opportunity either to read the documents, 
and I would like to read them. Mr. Cohn is not being dismissed. We 
will recall him tomorrow. He will still be in town tomorrow. 

INIr. Jenkins, you may begin the direct examination of the next 
witness after he has been sworn. 

Will you stand and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear the testimony 
you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God ? 

Senator McCarthy. I do. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2431 

TESTIMONY OF HON. JOSEPH K. McCARTHY, A UNITED STATES 
SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF WISCONSIN 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Jenkins ? 

Senator McCarthy. First, Mr. Chairman, may I have my chief 
counsel, Mr. Cohn, my chief of staff, Mr. Carr, next to me? That is 
in case I need any information over here. 

Senator Mukdt. They may take seats beside you. 

Mr. Jenkins? 

Senator McCarthy. Would you wait one minute, Mr. Jenkins? 
I want to get some material out of here, if I may. 

Okay, Mr. Jenkins. 

Mr. Jenkins. I believe that your full name is Joseph R. McCarthy ? 

Senator McCarthy. That is right. 

Mr. Jenkins. The junior Senator from the State of Wisconsin ? 

Senator McCarthy. That is correct. 

Mr. Jenkins. Senator McCarthy, what official position do you hold 
with the Permanent Committee on Government Operations? 

Senator McCarthy. Chairman. 

Mr. Jenkins. And what is your official position with this subcom- 
mittee on investigations? 

Senator McCarthy. Chairman of the committee, but not chairman 
of this special committee that is investigating the charges. 

Mr. Jenkins. You are the chairman of the committee regularly? 

Senator McCarthy. Yes. 

Mr. Jenkins. And as we understand it, for the purpose of these 
hearings, you stepped down temporarily as chairman and were suc- 
ceeded by the present acting chairman, Chairman Mundt? 

Senator McCarthy. That is correct. 

Mr. Jenkins. When did you become the chairman. Senator Mc- 
Carthy? 

Senator Mundt. The Chair believes, to correct the record, Mr. 
Jenkins, he stepped down not only as chairman, but he is not a member 
of this special committee. He has been replaced there by Senator 
Dworshak. So the record is complete. 

Senator McCarthy. I removed myself from the committee and the 
full committee put Mr. Dworshak on to fill that vacancy. 

Senator Mundt. Senator McClellan ? 

Senator McClelian. I do not agree with the Cliair, I want that 
known, that this is a special committee. This is a regular standing 
subcommittee of the Committee on Investigations, with the chairman 
temporarily replaced solely for the purpose of these hearings. 

Senator Mundt. And Senator Dworshak temporarily made a mem- 
ber to replace Senator McCarthy. That is correct. 

Senator McClellan. That is correct. 

Mr. Jenkins. Our last question. Senator McCarthy, was when did 
you become chairman of this subcommittee ? 

Senator McCarthy. I can't give you the exact date. It was shortly 
after President Eisenhower's administration took over. 

Mr. Jenkins. Early, then, would you say, in the year 1953 ? 

Senator McCarthy. That is right. 

Mr. Jenkins. Perhaps in January ? 



2432 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

- Senator McCarthy. Yes. In fact, I have the date here as January 
17, 1953. 

Mr. Jenkins.- Senator McCarthy, to what special inquiries have 
you directed the attention of your committee since the inception of 
your chairmanship of it? 

Senator McCarthy, Well, Mr. Jenkins, we have had a great num- 
ber of inquiries, I believe a total of 453— is that right? 453 separate 
inquiries. We have followed the rule if any Senator, if any one of 
any credibility makes a complaint we check and then if it develops 
that there are facts sufficiently important to call a hearing, I take 
it up with the committee. I assume, Mr. Jenkins, you refer to the 
hearings that we had in public. 

The first hearing, I believe, of importance was the hearing on the 
information program, the State Department's Information Program, 
fhe filing system in the State Department, the Government Printing 
Office. I think one of the very important hearings we held was on 
the trade between the so-called free nations and the Communist 
nations, their supplying Red China with trade. The minority coun- 
sel took a major part in that. 

Mr. Jenkins. Let me rephrase my question, Senator. What has 
been your interest in Communists, espionage, subversives, poor security 
risks in Government and in the various agencies of the Government, 
and in this country ? 

Senator McCarthy. It has been a very deep interest, Mr. Jenkins, 
because I have felt very strongly that unless we combatted the Com- 
munists in this Government, it was a great waste of time, money 
and blood to try and combat them other places throughout the 

world. 

I have been disturbed by the infiltration of Communists in our 

Government. 

Mr. Jenkins. I will ask you whether or not. Senator McCarthy, 
prior to the time you became chairman of the permanent committee 
and of this subcommittee, you devoted little or much time to the 
.subject of Communists in this country ? 

Senator McCarthy. A great deal of time, Mr. Jenkins. 

Mr. Jenkins. State whether or not on the floor of the Senate you 
made speeches with respect to communism and particularly for the 
purpose of warning or alarming this country over the question of 
Communists in the United States? 

Senator McCarthy. I have, Mr. Jenkins, but long before that, in 
my campaign of 1946 before I was elected to the Senate, I discussed 
this subject also. So it is nothing new as far as I am concerned. 

Mr. Jenkins. Your position on communism, then, I take it, is well 
known. Senator. 

Senator McCarthy. I think so. 

Mr. Jenkins. Your viewpoint, you would say, and their viewpoint 
are diametrically opposed to each other? 

Senator McCarthy. That is right. 

Mr. Jenkins. You are not one of their fair-haired boys? 

Senator McCarthy. You are right. 

Mr. Jenkins. You never have been tendered the nomination by 
the Communist Party for the Presidency— is that what you mean? 

Senator McCarthy. Not yet. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATIOlSr 2433 

Mr. Jenkins. Then, Senator, you have made a special study of com- 
munism and devoted much of your time and your energies to the 
eradication of communism in the United States, would you say that? 

Senator McCarthy. A great deal, Mr. Jenkins. 
Mr. Jenkins. Senator McCarthy, I think it is proper at this time, 
if you will do so, to tell the members of this subcommittee and to tell 
the American public, without going into too much detail, justwhat 
the setup of the Commmiists is, particularly with reference to its or- 
ganization and its various levels and its ramifications in this country. 
Will you do that. Senator McCarthy ? 

Senator McCarthy. I would like to do that, Mr. Jenkins. I can 
shorten my testimony a very great deal if I could use the ma^ over 
here. I don't know where to put that so that the press can see it and 
so that the members of the committee can see it. If I could have some 
suggestions on that. 

Mr. Jenkins. We see a map over there, and for the purpose of 
identification it is designated at the top, "Communist Party Organiza- 
tion U. S. A. — February 9, 1950." Is that the map to which you 
refer ? 

Senator McCarthy. Yes; it is. 

Mr. Jenkins. Senator, would you be more at ease 

Senator McCarthy. I am completely at ease. 

Mr. Jenkins. And could you more judiciously answer the question 
if you either had the map moved nearer where you are sitting or if 
you moved nearer the map ? 

Senator McCarthy. Yes. 

Mr. Jenkins. Which would you prefer? 

Senator McCarthy. I would like to be near the map as I discuss 
this. 

Mr. Jenkins, I don't know where that should be placed so that the 
members of the committee can see it and so the press can also see it. 
Where do you suggest. Senator McClellan ? 

Mr. Jenkins. What do you think about putting it at the farther 
end of this table ? 

Senator McCarthy. Any place is agreeable to me. 

Senator Mundt. Cover over the big Avhite chart, if you can, and we 
can all see it at that point. I think you can put it right over the 
white. You won't be using both charts at once. You won't cut off 
the view of so many reporters from the radio bench. 

Mr. Jenkins. Senator, it seems to me that you can sit at the table 
at the mike, or you may stand if you prefer. 

Senator McCarthy. I will try to speak loudly enough so the mike 
will pick it up. . 

You will see here, Mr. Jenkins, a map. You will note the desig- 
nation — 

Communist Party Organization U. S. A,— February 9, 1950. 

Mr. Jenkins. Why was that date chosen. Senator ? 

Senator McCarthy. I picked that date, Mr. Jenkins, for two rea- 
sons. No. 1, that is the date that I first publicly started to discuss 
the danger of the Communist conspiracy except just a cursory dis- 
cussion during the campaign during a number of years. 

No. 2, because as of now, according to the testimony of J. Edgar 
Hoover given last year, it is impossible to know just what the out- 



2434 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

lines of the various districts are, to know the names of the various 
district leaders, because many of them have gone underground since 
the 11 so-called top Communists were convicted. So I picked the 
February 9 date. 

At that time, Mr. Chairman, there were 32 districts. Before that, 
the orders flow from Moscow. They flow from Moscow to a top 
Communist leader whose name I couldn't give you as of today, then 
to what is known as the national committee or the politburo. That 
is now known as the national board. 

You will note here, Mr. Chairman, the names of the national com- 
mittee : William Foster, chairman, William Foster has been indicted. 
He has been pleading a heart ailment or sickness and keeps from being 
tried for how many years, Roy? About 15 years. At least a sizable 
number of years. 

Then you have Eugene Dennis, the general secretary. He was gen- 
eral secretary on February 9, 1950. He has been convicted. 

Gus Hall, national secretary, convicted. 

Henry Winston, organizational secretary. He is a fugitive. We 
don't know where he is but apparently behind the Iron Curtain. 

John Williamson, the labor secretary, convicted. 

Elizabeth Gurley Flynn. I believe she is out on appeal or bail at 
this time, is that right? 

Ben Davis, convicted. 

John Gates, convicted. 

Bill Green also convicted, but a fugitive. T\^iere he is we don't 
know, Mr. Jenkins. 

Irving Potash, Jack Stachel. Stachel was one of the really top 
boys in the party also convicted. 

Eobert Thompson. The Chair will recall that Robert Thompson 
was a fugitive for some time. He was picked up some place in the 
Sierra Mountains in California a number of months ago, about a year 
ago, I believe. He had dyed his hair, changed his looks, was hiding 
out and directing the Communist Party from there. 

Mr. Chairman, I am not sure if you can see this from where you sit. 

May I say the numbering of the districts has no significance. I 
just numbered them arbitrarily. I don't know what, if any, number 
the Communist Party has. 

There were 32 districts at that time. May I say also, Mr. Chairman, 
that the names of the chairmen of the various districts has no special 
significance because some of the convictions of the top Communists 
in these various districts were of individuals who are not named here. 
What we have on this chart are the individuals who are acting as 
fronts, the so-called periscope of the Communist Party, that part 
which was above the water. 

Now let me say, Mr. Jenkins, take for example in a district — let us 
pick one arbitrarily — district 25, which is composed of three States. 
You have your district head, you see Art Berry, chairman, Post Office 
Box 2691, also Post Office Box 929. I beg your pardon. Post Office 
Box 2691 or address 929 I7th Street, Denver, Colo., Art Berry, 
chairman. 

Il^nderneath Berry there worked State committees. Keep in mind, 
if 30U will, Mr. Jenkins, that the State committee was not confined 
by iny State lines. A State committee could flow over into another 



SPECIAL ESrV'ESTIGATION 2435 

State very well. Then there were the so-called county committees. 
A county committee might be composed of one county. It might be 
composed of half a county or 3 or 4 counties. And then there was the 
local cell, and there was also the local industrial unit. That industrial 
unit might be composed of 2 or 3 or 5 people. 

It seems that 3 or 5 was the favorite. In addition to this chart— 
and I merely prepared this, Mr. Jenkins, so that we could get a picture 
of the type of organization there was— in addition to that of course 
you have your sabotage units. 

Take, for example, in the city, we will say of Milwaukee, Wis. 
There is no question but what there are a number of individuals who 
know exactly where to throw a log chain or a steel cable to cut off 
the electric power of the city in case war comes with Communist 
Russia. 

Take, for example, Mr. Chairman — I will just begin using my State 
of Wisconsin. We, of course, know that there is a unit that knows 
just where between, for example, Appleton, Wis., and Hortonville, 
Wis., they might be able to find crossing of the lines of the telephone 
cable, where they might drop a bomb and cut out all telephone com- 
munications. And then, Mr. Jenkins, in addition to the districts, we 
should keep in mind that there are the organizations which flow com- 
pletely across the country, which have to do with racial groups, dif- 
ferent types of religious groups. 

Take for example, here, Mr, Chairman, and Mr. Jenkins, we have — 
let me just pick out a few at random. Benjamin Careathers, the 
Negro organizer. His job was to direct the agitation among Negro 
groups in all of the districts. He was the top man in that. Then 
take Eleanor Sachter, a steel organizer. Her task was not confined 
to any particular district. Her task was to include the entire steel 
industry. 

Am I taking too much time on this, Mr. Jenkins ? 

Mr. Jenkixs. Go right ahead, Senator, and explain it fully to the 
members of the committee. 

Senator McCarthy. Then you have Thomas Fitzpatrick, the elec- 
trical organizer, again not confined to any particular district but to 
the entire industry. And Andrew Onda, another steel organizer; 
Leo Fisher, the head of the nationality groups; Sam Eeed, the head 
electric organizer for Erie; Tony Lepovich, organizer for the coal 
area ; Tony Salopek, again steel. 

Let me take two, Mr, Jenkins, that have been in the news in the 
last couple of days. There were Mike Russo, chairman of what I 
have labeled as District No. 3, and Sid Taylor, secretary ; he has gone 
under different names. They have both been arrested and within 
the last week they have been indicted. There is one other thing that 
might be of interest. 

In 1950, the number of Communists in the United States, the esti- 
mated number, was 54,174. That estimate 

Mr. Jenkins. Senator McCarthy, may I ask you at this point, how 
was that number, 54,174, of Communists in the United States in 1950 
arrived at ? 

Senator McCarthy. That was from the testimony of J. Edgar 
Hoover ; and the estimated number of fellow travelers, 540,000. JBy 
"fellow travelers," of course, I mean those who are not under the 



2436 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

discipline of Moscow, who are not bound to take orders, but indi- J 
viduals who are known to the Communist Party to be wilhng to carry 1 
out the work of the Communist conspiracy. . ^r ^ .u ' 

Mr Jenkins. I will ask you whether or not, Senator McCarthy, a 
fellow traveler is a Communist ? And, if not, what is the relationship 

^S^enatOTMcCARTHT. He is not a Communist, INIr. Jenkins, in that 
he is not under Communist Party discipline. -.it -ii 

Let me give you an example. Let^s say I am a writer and I will 
not ioin the Communist Party, but I will associate with Communists, 
1 can be influenced to expound their views and preach what they 
preach, attack whom they attack. Then you would list me as a 
fellow traveler, but not as a member of the Communist Party 

Mr Jenkins. I will ask you whether or not fellow travelers are 
organized, or are they just individuals scattered over the country^ 

Senator McCarthy. No. That is a good question, Mr. Jenkins. 
There is no tight organization insofar as the fellow travelers are con- 
cerned For example, we know in this room here there are fellow 
travelers who will preach as the Communists advise them to preach, 
who will write as the Communists advise them to write. But they are 
not organized. They can refuse if, as, and when they will. It is a 
completely loose organization, and some of them fairly innocent 

^^Mr ^Jenkins. How was the figure 540,000, representing the num- 
ber of fellow travelers in the United States in the year 1950, 

determined ? , ^ ^ , . • t i 

Senator McCarthy. That is a figure, Mr. Jenkms-agam, I have 
seen so many people hanging on J. Edgar Hoover s coattails. i don t 
want to do that, but I must quote him when necessary. . 

J Edf^ar Hoover has testified under oatk that for every Communist, 
every man under discipline from Moscow, there are roughly 10— and 
that is a rough estimate— fellow travelers who do their work. 

Mav I say! Mr. Jenkins, if you only had the 54,000 Communists, if 
you cmild block out the fellow travelers, then we could sleep much 

niore easily these nights. , ^ n i. +'^„ 

Mr Jenkins. Is a fellow traveler, Senator, a good prospect tor 
membership in the Communist Party by reason of his Communistic 
leanings, would you say ? ^ at t ^ \.c 

Senator ^IcCarthy. He might be a good prospect, Mr. Jenkins. 
Pardon me for speaking so loud. I assume you want these mikes 
to pick it up. He misht be a good prospect, but let me make it clear 
that the Communist Party is not aiming for a vast membership. As 
they have said over and over and over, "AVe want quality, not quan- 
tity " They want fanatic, devoted Communists who won t question 
any of their orders and who will do their bidding at all times. 

As far as numbers are concerned, they don't want any great number. 

Mr Jenkins. I will ask vou whether or not the number of Com- 
munists under orders from Moscow is increasing or decreasing in this 

country? . ^ . . ^^.^^ ^. h-. 

Senator McCarthy. It is decreasing. For example, m 19o0, <)4,1 <4. 
In 1954, the estimate is slightly over 25,000. That means it has been 

cut in half. , ^ f *. 

Mr. Jenkins. Senator, should that be taken as a source ot comtort 

by the people of this Nution, or not? 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2437 

Senator McCarthy. No, Mr. Jenkins. 

Mr. Jenkins. Why not ? 

Senator McCarthy. Because they are tighteningr up their organi- 
zation. The results, for example, of the Hiss hearings conducted by 
the chairman of this committee, Mr. Mundt, and Vice President 
Nixon, and other hearings, exposed Communists. The jailing of 
some — let's see how many were jailed; I believe 72 since 1948 — the 
jailing of those Communists has caused them to tighten up their or- 
ganization and make sure they have only got the devoted Communists. 

Also, one reason, Mr. Jenkins, why the membership has dropped 
is because the Communists have been more and more disturbed by the 
FBI agents who, under the orders of the FBI, have infiltrated and 
become members of uriits throughout the country. 

So they are being very, very careful about any new members, and 
they are giving the Communist Party the benefit of the doubt in 
picking out any of the present membership of 25,000. 

I may say, Mr. Jenkins, this figure of 250,000 I think is not a correct 
figure. I told the man who made the chart that J. Edgar Hoover had 
testified about 10 fellow travelers for every devoted Communist. So 
he made that 250,000. I don't believe, Mr. Jenkins, that there has been 
that drop in the number of fellow travelers. 

Mr. Jenkins. Senator, I will ask you whether or not the number 
25,000 under the year 1954, as shown on the map and representing 
the number of Communists in the United States of America under 
the discipline of Moscow, is arrived at from the testimony of the 
gentleman to whom you have referred, to wit, the Director of the 
Federal Bureau of Investigation? 

Senator McCarthy. The testimony of J. Edgar Hoover; that is 
correct. 

Mr. Jenkins. Senator, as attorney for the committee and as an 
American citizen, I want to ask you whether or not — and I feel that 
the public should know about it — is or not there a real, live, organized, 
militant, virile Communist Party in the United States of America? 

Senator McCarthy. That is, Mr. Jenkins — and you put your finger 
right on it — that is the military organization, the military organiza- 
tion of the Communist conspiracy, a hard core of Communists who, 
following the orders of Lenin, believe it is right to lie and to cheat, to 
murder, to commit sabotage, to do anything necessary on God's earth 
to make sure that the Red conspiracy finally controls the world. 

Mr. Jenkins. Is there anything sub rosa about it, Senator 
McCarthy, or is it open and across the top of the table and well known ? 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Jenkins, it is becoming more and more sub 
rosa. During the war years when people were talking about coopera- 
tion with Russia — and. as you know, some very fine people thoudit 
that we could work out peace and have Communist nations live side 
by side with our nations governed by a republic — at that time it was 
much more on the surface. It is going more and more underground, 
and how many of the — I might say that a vast number of the 25,000 
are underground at this time. 

Mr. Jenkins. Does or not that make it easy or more difficult to 
designate or to identify and dig out a Communist of Communists — 
the fact that they are going underground? What would you say 
about that ? 



2438 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

fipnator McCarthy. More difficult. _ , 

Mr Jenkins. Do you or not regard Senator McCarthy he ex. st- 
ence of this underground Communist Party m the United States as a 
constant threat to our form of government and to our American way 

"" Senator McCarthy. Mr. Jenkins, let me say this in the way of an 
answer I have been admonishing my staff to make short answers. 

' ^Fn I9I? % mt 1 f or^t ^^ich it was, the Kaiser sent seven devoted 
Communists into Russi£ They were headed by N 1 col ai Lenin 7 men 
and within 100 days those 7 men had taken over and enslaved a nation 
of 180 million people who no more wanted to be Communist slaves 
than we do. Seven people. jut 

We have 25,000, and they have the experience of a good num^jer ot 
years behind them. So it is a very imminent, urgent, day-to-day 

^'Mr''jENKmf \^^^ is the purpose of the Communist Party in the 

''s'ei'^^^^^^^^^^ create a Eed world, a Communist world^ 

Mr Jenkins. Is it to overthrow this Government and the form ot 
government and to change it to that of a Communist governments 
Senator McCarthy. That is correct, Mr. Jenkins. 
mTv I again take 30 seconds. Back in 1848, as you know, Karl 
Marx wrote the bible of the Communist Party. At that time he took 
the position that while it was necessary to have a complete Red ^ ^ 
tatorship throughout the world, he took the position then that he 
United States and England were exceptions insofar as a bioody revo- 
lutSn was concerned. He took the position that while it was necessary 
to Zve a bloody revolution in all of the rest of the world we could 
create a Coinmunist dictatorship in the United States and England 
by infiltration, by peaceful means, if you will. 

Mr. Jenkins. Has that occurred 

Senator McCarthy. No ; in IdU 

TMr Jenkins. In some of the nations ot the world \^. . . ^ . . 
Senator McCarthy. No; in l^^^, Mr. Jenlans Nicolai L^^^^^^^ 
effect rewrote the bible that Marx had written in 1848. At that time, 
Lenfn said that while Marx was. right in 1848, tl^^t conditions had 
chano-ed to the extent that there is no nation on earth that could be 
?aken over without a bloody revolution, and since then you have heard 
people refer to the Marx-Lenin line, the Marx-Lenin line means the 
Marx idea that you must create a Communist dictatorship modified 
by Lenin to the effect that that must be done by violence, by bloodshed, 
in every nation on earth. ,. . .1 4. i.:^u 

Mr. Jenkins. Senator, under whose direction was the map to which 

you have been referring prepared ? 

Senator McCarthy. Undermine. i,vi. ,^n., wnnf 

Mr. Jenkins. Now, are there any other references which you want 
to make to the map before you sit back in the witness chair. Senator 
McCarthy, or do you feel that you have explained it sufficiently ^ 

Senator 'McCarthy. No; except that I would like to make it very 
clear, Mr. Jenkins, that this map is ]ust infinitely far from beiug 
complete. This is the situation roughly as I felt it was on February 
9 1950, at the time I made the Wheeling speech. I have found that 
many individuals named here as party organizers, as chairmen, ap- 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2439 

parently were figureheads. There are many ramifications of this that 
I certainly have no knowledge of whatsoever. 

For example, I couldn't take — pick out any State at random. Pick 
out, we will say, Washington State. I would have no idea where the 
various sabotage units have their headquarters, where the espionage 
groups operate from. This is just a general, rough picture, Mr. 
Jenkins, of what the situation was, to give a picture of how thoroughly 
tliey have organized the United States, how thoroughly are their plans 
to take over. 

And may I say, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Jenkins, one word in con- 
clusion. 

There are many people who think that we can live side by side with 
Communists. They think that maybe as of 1951 or 1952 they are 
going to become peaceful. 

Mr. Jenkins. What do you say about that, sir ? 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Jenkins, anyone who has followed the 
Communist conspiracy, even remotely, and who can add 2 and 2, 
will tell you that there is not remote possibility of this war which 
we are in today, and it is a war, a war which we have been losing, 
no remote possibility of this ending except by victory or by death 
for this civilization. 

In conclusion, Mr. Jenkins, I know I have listened to some of my 
friends who read Mein Kampf, in which Hitler set out very clearly 
his aims to dominate all of Europe. There were those who said, "He 
is joking; he doesn't mean what he is saying." 

Well, they felt later, they learned later, after a great deal of blood- 
shed and death and destruction that he meant what he was saying. 

Mr. Jenkins, the picture here is much longer, is much clearer. It 
runs from 1848 up to this 9th day of June 1954. The war was de- 
clared by Karl Marx, redeclared often, altered by Lenin, redeclared 
in 1947 in Stalin's book, redeclared, if you please, by Malenkov in 
his book in 1952, and there is no indication at all that they will call 
it off. It is true, Mr. Jenkins, they will have peace offensives. They 
will talk about wanting peace and want to work with us. But it is 
only so they can regroup their forces as they did in China, as they 
will do throughout the world unless and until we win or they win. 

Pardon me for making such a long answer. 

Mr. Jenkins. Senator, before you sit down, I observe in various 
areas on that map white spaces in which from one to several names, 
two, three to several names are written. Are they the actual names. 
Senator McCarthy, of Communists in various levels of the Com- 
munist organization in this country ? 

Senator McCarthy. Yes. Take, for example, Mr. Jenkins 

Mr. Jenkins. There are you referring again to the State of Wash- 
ington now ? 

Senator McCarthy. This is not because of Senator Jackson. We 
will block it off. Let's go to a different State. Let's take the State 
of Montana, Jack Lucid, chairman. Post Office Box 77. He was a 
Communist Party district chairman, taking the three States of Colo- 
rado, New Mexico, the party organizer — here we have the chairman, 
the address, this is New Mexico, Wyoming, and Colorado, District 
25, the 25 has no special meaning. Post Office Box 2691, or 929 l7th 
Street, Denver, Colo., Art Berry, chairman. 



2440 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Let's drop down to this district which covers Nevada and part of 
California, Communist Party district, 942 Market Street, room 701, 
San Francisco, William Schneiderman, chairman, Louise Todd, sec- 
retary. Schneiderman has been convicted. Todd has not been con- 
victed or indicted. 

Take down in the State of Texas, Post Office Box 4085, Houston, 
Tex. There we don't have the chairman, the party organizer. 

Take down in the State of Louisiana, room 417, Godchaux Build- 
ing, New Orleans, Irving Giff, chairman. We can go through the 
whole list. I don't think you want me to waste your time on that. 

Over here [indicating], Mr. Jenkins, I think you will find pretty 
largely the individuals who were not assigned to any specific district, 
but who were assigned to specific tasks. 

Take, for example, Mr. Chairman and Mr. Jenkins, we had before 
us about 5 or 6 months ago, I believe it was, Democrats left the 
committee, so it was longer than that, it was before July of last year, 
we had an individual who was questioned about the school where they 
taught sabotage. Not 10 years ago, not 5 years ago, but 8 or 9 months 
ago, a building with 5-foot falls in the basement where they taught 
the goon squads how to throw the hand grenades, how to in effect 
commit murder when the day came, and that is in the executive testi- 
mony of the committee. We have not made that public because we 
have been asked not to make the address of the building or the testi- 
mony public, so we have not, but that is available to any member of 
the committee who wants to read it. That will give you an idea, Mr. 
Chairman, of the fact that there is nothing— there is nothing theoret- 
ical. This is no game at all, as of today, you see, as of today, we can 
assume that those buildings in which they are teaching sabotage and 
murder as the evidence showed, they were some 8 or 9 months ago, we 
can assume they are doing the same thing as of today. 

Mr. Jenkins. Now, Senator, if you feel that you have explained 
the significance of that map and the various designations on it— inci- 
dentally, I see no designation whatever there where the State of Ten- 
nessee is indicated, with any names of any Communists of any levels 
being in that particular area. Is that right. Senator? I would ]ust 
like to get that in the record. That is correct. 

Senator, you may come down and have a seat on the witness stand 
and continue the direct examination. 

Senator McCarthy. May I say, Mr. Chairman, I colored Tennessee 
a little lighter green for the benefit of our very able chief counsel. 

Mr. Jenkins. I think perhaps the color green may be significant. 

Senator McCarthy. The Communist Party District of Alabama, 
the address of which is Post Office Box 1891, Birmingham, Ala., 
chairman Sam Hall, secretary Andy Brown, handles the Tennessee 



area. 



Mr. Jenkins. Very well. ^ -r , .i, i ^ 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Jenkins, may I say I have one other chart 

which vou might want to discuss. 

Mr. Jenkins. I don't think so, Senator. I will ask you to have a 
seat now. I know about the other chart. You have explained that 
fully, and I regard it as material, but it is not proper to introduce it 

at this time. „, , « n u-i •<- 

Senator, I will ask you to have that map filed formally as an exhibit 
to your testimony so that it is officially a part of your testimony, 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2441 

Senator McCarthy. I will be very glad to, Mr. Jenkins. 

Senator Mundt. Mrs. Watt will mark it with the proper exhibit 
number. 

(The map referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 36" and may be 
found in the office of the subcommittee.) 

Senator McCarthy. May I have just 1 minute, Mr. Jenkins ? 

Mr. Jenkins. Senator McCarthy, how do you regard the commu- 
nistic threat to our Government as compared with other threats with 
which it is confronted ? Evaluate that in a comparative sense, if you 
will. I think it is a salutary thing for the American people to know 
that there is a communistic party in this Nation, to know something 
about its organizational setup, to know something about the degi'ee 
of danger of the existence of such an organization. 

Do you agi^ee with me with respect to those conclusions, Senator? 

Senator McCarthy. I certainly do, and answering your question, 
Mr. Jenkins, I think I can best answer it this way : 

Back in 1848 — that is 106 years ago — you could number the mem- 
bers of the Communist conspiracy on the fingers of both your hands. 
They made very little progress insofar as numbers were concerned 
until 1917 and 1918. It is true they did organize some hard cells 
throughout the country. 

Then all of a sudden their membership — I shouldn't say the mem- 
bership — those under Communist domination increased to 180 million. 
Then from 1917 to 1945, that figure stayed rather static. It was 180 
million. 

From 1945 to 1952, the figure suddenly jumped to between eight 
hundred and nine hundred million. 

Keep in mind that the entire world population, according to the 
estimates we all have, is around two billion two hundred or three 
hundred million. So we are getting very close to Communist en- 
slavement of one-half of the world. 

Keep in mind that they are winning. They are not losing. 

Since January 1, 1953, it is true they haven't increased their mem- 
bership, or I should say they haven't increased their domination of 
the world to any great extent. They have to some extent in Indo- 
china. But neither has it been decreased. 

Mr. Jenkins, the thing that I think we must remember is that this 
is a war which a brutalitarian force has won to a greater extent than 
any brutalitarian force has won a war in the history of the world 
before. 

For example, Christianity, which has been in existence for 2,000 
years, has not converted, convinced nearly as many people as this 
•Communist brutalitarianism has enslaved in 106 years, and they are 
not going to stop. 

I know that many of my good friends seem to feel that this is a 
sort of a game you can play, that you can talk about communism 
as though it is something 10,000 miles away. 

Mr. Jenkins, in answer to your question, let me say it is right here 
with us now. Unless we make sure that there is no infiltration_ of 
our Government, then just as certain as you sit there, in the period 
of our lives you will see a red world. Tliere is no question about 
that, Mr. Jenkins. 

May I say this ? I see you are looking at your watch. Apparently 
you are about ready to conclude. 



2442 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Mr. Jenkins. I have no disposition to cut you off. Let me make 
this statement, Senator McCarthy. I am sure that everybody in this 
room hates communism. I am sure that everybody in this room loves 
the Army of the United States of America. It is about closing time. 
The things you have said may be somewhat alarming and disturbing 
to the people of this Nation, which we all love. I think it is a good 
time, Senator McCarthy, before I begin directly examining you on 
the issues of this controversy, and particularly with reference to the 
charges of Senator McCarthy and his staff against the Secretary of 
the Army — which no doubt cannot begin until in the morning — but 
now, while you have an audience of perhaps twenty or thirty million 
Americans, I want to ask you to make one statement, Senator. I am 
not asking you to abbreviate it, but to consume the balance of the 
time allotted to you this afternoon in a statement to the American 
people telling them, based on your knowledge and experience, of the 
Communist Party and the threat of communism in the United States 
of America. I want you to tell, in answer to this question, or, rather, 
this request, not what Senator McCarthy and the members of his 
staff can do, not what the Secretary of the Army and the members 
of his staff can do or any investigating agency can do as an agency, 
but what each individual American — man, woman, child — can do to 
fight the threat of communism and to do their bit to liquidate the 
Communist Party in this country. I think that the utilization of 
your time in that respect would be well worth while. 

Do you get my request, Senator ? 

Senator McCarthy. Yes, I do. It is a good request. It is rather 
unexpected. I wdsh I had more time to think it over, but I will try 
to answer that. 

No. 1, the average American can do very little insofar as digging 
Communists and espionage agents out of our Government is concerned. 
They must depend ujjon those of us whom they send down here to man 
the watchtowers of the Nation. They must depend upon us for that. 

However, there is one very important thing that the American 
people can do. I understand that is your question. I am sure that 
you will recall Hitler's statement. He said, "Give me control of 
the minds of the youth" — I am not sure that I can quote this verbatim. 
In effect he said, "Then I will, without firing a shot, control any nation 
on earth." That was his aim, to teach naziism in the schools, to make 
sure that that only was taught to the youth of the nation. 

He learned that lesson well. The Connnunists have learned that 
lesson well, also, Mr. Jenkins. 

The thing that the American people can do is to be vigilant day 
and night to make sure tliey don't have Communists teaching the sons 
and daughters of America. I realize that the minute anyone tries to 
get a Communist out of a college or a university, there will be raised 
the phony cry that you are interfering with academic freedom. I 
would like to emphasize that there is no academic freedom where a 
Communist is concerned. He is not a free agent. He has no freedom 
of thought, no freedom of expression. He must take his orders from 
Moscow or he will no longer be a member of the Communist Party. 

I may say, Mr. Jenkins, I don't care how much of a screwball or a 
crackpot any professor or teacher may be as long as he or she is a free 
agent, but once you have this from the Atlantic to the Pacific, covered 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2443 

with a network, a network of professors and teachers, who are getting 
their orders from Moscow, from an organization that wants to destroy 
this Nation, that wants to corrupt the minds of youth, then, Mr. 
Jenkins, we are rapidly losing the battle. 

So I would say the thing the American people can do is to watch 
what is going on but, above all, what they should be careful of is not 
to go off half-cocked, if you will pardon me for that expression, just 
because they don't like what some teacher is teaching, because they 
think he is too liberal, because they think he is too radical. 

Don't jump to the conclusion he is a Communist. But if they will 
keep a wide-open eye day and night on all of their schools, all of the 
colleges, all of the universities, and when they get information which 
indicates that someone is actually a member of this Communist con- 
spiracy, send that in to our FBI, I think that is one thing they can do 
that is more important than all else. 

One other thing : I didn't intend to make a speech but you asked me 
a question which sort of forces me to. One other thing, which will 
take about a minute. 

Mr. Jenkins. Senator, I just wanted the American people to 
know — we are trespassing upon time now — to know that there is some- 
thing that each and every individual in this Nation can do about it in 
addition to the various agencies concerned with that responsibility. 
Is that true ? 

Senator McCarthy. Yes, sir. 

That is one other thing, Mr. Jenkins, which I think they can do. I 
will trespass on time for this because I don't want to leave the question 
half answered. 

Lenin once said that he who controls China — and I can't quote him 
verbatim — he who controls China will ultimately control all of Asia 
and will control the world. 

Mr. Hoover testified about a year ago or less than that that one of 
the Communist aims was to increase the shipment — I wish we had a 
map of Indochina and China here, but we don't have it — the shipment 
of materials to China and that area. This is not a Democrat problem 
or a Kepublican problem. 

I think the American people should remember, especially when we 
talk about the morale of our Armed Forces, that as of tonight there 
are a sizable number of American uniformed men being brainwashed 
in Communist bloodstained dungeons. That is not my word. This 
is the word of our military who gave the figure. 

On September 10, 1953, they said 900 uniformed men. Two days 
later the Communists said, "We had 32 airmen shot down over Man- 
churia, and we will keep them as prisoners of war." 

It is an unheard of situation. This has to do with what the people 
can do about this. 

Again may I say this is not a Democrat or a Kepublican problem. 
I think the American people this fall, when they elect a Congress, all 
the Congressmen and one-third of the Senate, regardless of whether 
they are going to vote Democrat or Kepublican, should ask those 
Senators and Congressmen "Mister, if we send you to Washington are 
you going to continue sending American money to nations which in 
turn ship the sinews of economic and military strength to Ked China, 
which is running the war in Indochina ?" 



2444 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 

Keeping in mind if we lose Indochina, Mr. Jenkins, we will lose the 
Pacific and we will be an island in a Communist sea. 

Those are two of the things I could mention. There are others 
but I am afraid it would take too long. 

Mr. Jenkins. Senator INIcCarthy, 2 or 3 short questions. I think 
perhaps the chairman and the members of the committee may be 
getting a little restless. 

You and I are having a discussion here, largely for the benefit of 
the American public now, with respect to what is regarded generally 
as an important issue in this country. I did not know that I was 
going to ask you the question that I asked you. 

Senator McCarthy. Nor did I. 

Mr. Jenkins. I wanted to do it to impress upon the people of this 
Nation tiiat we all love so well, that there was something that they 
could do about it. Let's see if I have any ideas. They are not crys- 
tallized in my mind. But wouldn't it be a fine thing to begin the 
inculcation into the minds of the youth of this Nation with respect 
to the danger and threat of this form of government, say, around 
the hearthstone of the home, when the minds are young and pliable 
and impressionable, and they get ideas and impressions that they 
would carry the rest of their lives. That would be a fine place to 
start, wouldn't it. Senator? 

Senator McCaktht. The gentleman has said that well. I agree a 
hundred percent. 

Mr. Jenkins. For the pur]iose of preventing the spread of com- 
munism in this Nation, and, if possible, eradicating it to the end that 
our form of Government might live on and on, and then go from there. 
Senator, go from there to the schools, the free schools, where the 
youth attend, and to get the right kind of teachers and the right 
kind of books, to teach the history, especially. 

Do you feel with me that perhaps that has been sadly neglected in 
the schools, and especially the schools for the youth of the Nation, and 
history of the great traditions of this Nation and of its form of Gov- 
ernment — do you feel with me that that is true and that something 
should be done about that, and that that would be a good step in the 
direction that you and T are talking about, is that right. Senator? 

Senator McCarthy. There is only one word in your whole question 
that I would object to. I would say that as a whole the schools have 
been doing a good job. But one • 

]\Ir. Jenkins. Some places I am afraid they haven't. 

Senator JNIcCartiiy. One Communist teacher out of a hundred can 
do untold damage. 

Mr. Jenkins. And carry it on from the school to which the first- 
grader, the 6-year old child goes, on to the upper classes, and the 
colleges and the universities of the Nation. 

Senator McCarthy. I agree with you. 

Mr. Jenkins. Carry through the idea there ? 

Senator McCarthy. I agree with you. 

Mr, Jenkins. And in civic organizations, the Rotaries, the Opti- 
mists, the Kiwanis, and then the churches, and all through all the 
levels of life, and to each individual it is a responsibility of each 
individual American, isn't it, to be active and to be articulate about it? 

Senator McCarthy. You are very righ't, sir. 



SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2445 

Mr. Jenkins. Now, Senator, it is now past closing time, and in the 
morning— I have talked to you generally, I thought it would be a 
good thing for the Nation — in the morning we will get down to 
specifics on our direct examination. 

Senator Mundt. The Chair has a letter to read from Mr. Joe Welch, 
special counsel, and one or two announcements to make before we 
recess. The letter is dated June 9, 1954 : 

Mr. Ray S. Jenkins, Esq., 

Special Counsel, Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, 
Senate Office Building, Washington, D. C. 

Dear Mr. Jenkins : In the past several days, attention has been called on 
more than one occasion to the fact that Mr. lioy M. Cohn is scheduled for a period 
of active military duty with his unit of the New York National Guard. In this 
connection, suggestions have been made that the absence of Mr. Cohn for this 
purpose would make it difficult, if not impossible, to continue with the hearings. 
It is suggested that you or the chairman of the subcommittee request the adjutant 
general of the State of New York to postpone Mr. Cohn's call to duty until 
after the hearings are concluded. I do not believe that this will be an unreason- 
able request, and I feel certain that it would be honored. As a precedent, I might 
cite the cooperation given to you by the Army when you requested that Private 
Schine be assigned to your subcommittee for the duration of the hearings. 
Sincerely yours, 

Joseph N. Welch, 

Special Counsel. 

I will say that I have passed that request, Mr. Welch, it is a very 
thoughtful one, to the members of the subcommittee, and we have 
unanimously concurred in it, and I am asking Mr. Jenkins now to 
proceed in conformity with that request. 

Senator McCarthy, Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I could ask for an 
investigation of the subcommittee in their asking for some preferential 
treatment for Mr. Cohn ? 

Senator Mundt. Not at this time. 

The Chair would like to make the second announcement to Mr. Cohn, 
that you are to consider yourself as a witness to be sure that you are 
available tomorrow if other members of the committee have questions 
to ask you. 

The third instruction is for the members of the committee. I can 
tell you that all of the executive testimony which has been heard, which 
includes testimony of 11 witnesses, has now been transcribed and is 
now available to all the subcommittee members, Mr. Welch and Mr. 
St. Clair, to Senator McCarthy and his associates, and to Mr. Kennedy, 
the minority counsel, in the office of INIr. Jenkins. It is the hope of the 
Chair that the members will review that executive testimony, because 
you will recall that I announced earlier that I would like to have all 
members of the subcommittee and counsel for all sides of the contro- 
versy, submit in writing to Mr. Jenkins by tomorrow noon the list of 
any potential witnesses that they would like to have appear. 

Finally, the Chair would like to say that at the conclusion of tomor- 
row afternoon's hearings, which he hopes to conclude a little earlier, 
there will be an executive committee meeting of our committee in room 
357 for the purpose then of trying to determine how many more wit- 
nesses we must hear and how much longer these hearings are likely 
to run. 

We will stand in recess until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning. 

("V\rhereupon, at 5 : 17 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene 
at 10 a. m. the following day, Thursday, June 10, 1954.) 



INDEX 



Page 
Adams, John G 2399, 2400 

Alabama Communist Party 2440 

Appleton, Wis 2435 

Armed Forces (United States) 2443 

Army of the United States 2400,2401,2408,2415,2442 

Attorney General of the United States 2399, 2427 

"Baker West, Baker East" (report) 2413-2416 

Berry, Art 2434, 2439 

Birmingham, Ala 2440 

Blount, Lieutenant 2422 

Boston, Mass 2428 

Brown, Andy 2440 

Brownell, Attorney General 2399 

California Communist Party 2440 

Camp Dix 2401, 2404, 2406-2412, 2414, 2416-2418, 2420-2423 

Camp Gordon 2411 

Camp Kilmer 2398, 2405 

Camp Kilmer Communist cells 2405 

Canada 2398,2404 

Canadian Royal Commission 2404 

Capitol Police 2397 

Careathers, Benjamin 2435 

Carr, Francis P 2400, 2406, 2418-2420, 2429 

Chambers, Whittaker 2399, 2404 

Chambers book 2404 

Chambers spy ring 2399 

China 2439,2443 

Christmas 2421 

Cohn, Rov M 2445 

Testimony of 2398-2430 

Committee on Un-American Activities (House) 2429 

Communist agents 2404 

Communist conspiracy 2433, 2436, 2437, 2439, 2441 

Communist dentist 2404 

Communist espionage in Canada 2398 

Communist Party 2398, 2399, 2404, 2425-2429, 2432-2443 

Communist Party (Alabama) 2440 

Communist Party (California) 2440 

Communist Party (United States) 2498,2432,2435,2438 

"Communist Party Organization U. S. A." (map) 2433 

Communist Party for the Presidency (nomination) 2432 

Communist Russia 2435 

Communist training school 2398 

Communists 2398, 2399, 2404, 2425-2429, 2432-2443 

Communists in the United States 2398, 2432, 2435, 2438 

Counselor to the Army 2399.2400 

Cub Room (Stork Club) 2419 

Davis, Ben 2434 

Dennis, Eugene 2434 

Denver, Colo, (post office box 2691) 2434,2439 

Department of the Army 2400,2401,2408,2415,2442 

Dirksen, Senator 2405 

District No. 8 2435 

Drake Hotel (New York City) 2420 

Dworshak, Senator 24dl 



n INDEX 

Page 

Eisenhower, President 2431 

Eisenhower administration 2431 

Electrical orgauizer 2435 

Eleven so-called top Communists 2434 

Erie 2435 

p:urope 2401, 2439 

FBI (Federal Bureau of Investif,^^tion) 242n, 242fi. 2437, 2443 

Federal Bureau of luvestiuation (FBI) 2^25,2426,2437,2443 

Fifth-amendment Communist 2404 

Fisher, Fred 2427-2430 

Fisher, Leo 2435 

Fitzpatrick, Thomas 2435 

Flanders, Senator 2398, 2404 

Flynn, Elizabeth Gurley 2434 

Fort Dix 210]. 24U4, 210(5-2412, 2414, 241(5-2418, 2420-2423 

Fort Hill and Broadway (New York City) 2404 

Fort Monmouth 2399, 2424-2426 

Foster, William 2434 

Gates, John 2434 

Giff, Irvins 2440 

Godchaux Building (New Orleans, La.) 2440 

Gorshkov, Driver 2398 

Government Printing Office 2432 

Governor of Massachusetts 2428 

Green, Bill 2434 

Hale & Dorr 2428 

Hall, Gus 2434 

Hall, Sam 2440 

Harvard Law School 2428 

Hiss hearings 2437 

Hitler 2439,2442 

Hoover, J. Edgar 2433, 2135-2437 

Horowitz, Mr 2416 

Hortonville, Wis 2435 

Hotel Drake (New York City) 2420 

Hotel Stacy-Trent 2418 2420 

House Un-American Activities Committee 2429 

Houston, Tex. (post office box 40S5) 2440 

Indochina 2443, 2444 

Information Program (State Department) 2432 

Iron Curtain 2434 

Jackson, Senator 2404, 2439 

Jenner committee 2399 

Juliana, Jim 2418 

Kaiser 2438 

Kennedy, Mr 2445 

Kiwanis Clubs 2444 

Lawyers Guild 2428, 2429 

Lenin, Nicholai 2437-2439, 2443 

Lepovich, Tony 2435 

Lucid, Jack 2439 

Malenkov 2439 

Mandel, "Pop" 2398 

Marx, Karl 2438, 2439 

Marx-Lenin line 2438 

Massachusetts Governor 2428 

Massachusetts Young Repul)licans League (Xewton) 2428 

McCarthy, Senator Joe__ 2399, 2404-2406, 2409, 2413, 2414. 2418, 2424, 2426-2430 

Testimony of 2431-2445 

McClellan, Senator 2433 

Mein Kampf 2439 

Milwaukee, Wis 2435 

Moscow 2399, 2436, 2437, 2442, 2443 

Mundt, Senator 2437 

National Guard (New York) 2445 

Negro organizer 2435 

New Orleans, La 2440 



INDEX III 

Page 

New Year's Eve 2417, 2421-2423 

New York City 2401, 2404-2407, 2409-2411, 2420, 2421 

New York National Guard 2445 

Newton, Mass 2428 

Nixon, Vice President 2437 

Onda, Andrew 2435 

Optimists CInbs 2444 

Ottawa, Canada 2398 

Pentagon 2414 

Peress 2398, 2399, 2404, 2405 

Post office bos 1891 (Birmingham, Ala.) 2440 

Post office box 2691 (Denver, Colo.) 2434, 2439 

Post office box 40S5 (Houston, Tex.) 2440 

Potash, Orving 2434 

Presidency (Communist Party nomination) 2432 

President of the United States 2431 

Red China 2432, 2443 

Red conspiracy 2437 

Red dictatorship 2438 

Red world 2488 

Reed, Sam 2435 

Rosenbleit, Dr 2404 

Rotary Clubs 2444 

Royal Canadian Commission 2398 

Russia 2437 

Russo, Mike 2435 

Ryan, General 2408, 2418, 2420, 2422 

Sachter, Eleanor 2435 

St. Clair, Mr 2398, 2427, 2428, 2445 

Salopek, Tony 2435 

San Francisco, Calif 2440 

Sardi's Restaurant (New York City) 2421 

Schine, 0. David 2399, 2401, 2404-2410, 2412-2419, 2422, 2423, 2430, 2445 

Schneiderman, William 2440 

Secretary of the Army 2414, 2425, 2426, 2442 

Senate of the United States 2432 

Sierra Mountains (California) 2434 

Stachel, Jack 2434 

Stacy-Trent Hotel 2418-2420 

State Department (United States) 2413, 2432 

State Department filing system 2432 

State Department Information Centers (interim report) 2413 

State Department information program 2432 

Stevens, Robert T 2407 

Stork Club (New York City) 2417, 2419-2421 

Taylor, Sid 2435 

Thompson, Robert 2434 

Un-American Activities Committee (House) 2429 

United States Army 2400, 2401, 2408, 2415, 2442 

United States Attorney General 2399, 2327 

United States Communist Party 2398, 2432, 2435, 2438 

United States Department of State 2413 

United States Senate 2432 

United States President 2431 

United States Vice President 2437 

Vice President of the United States 2437 

Voice of America 2413 

Washington. D. C 2425 

Watt, Mrs 2441 

Wheeling speech (McCarthy) 2438 

Williamson, John 2434 

Winston, Henry 2434 

Witness (book by Chambers) 2404 

Young Republicans League (Newton, Mass.) 2428 

o