SPECIAL SENATE INVESTIGATION ON CHARGES
AND COUNTERCHARGES INVOLVING: SECRE-
TARY OF THE ARMY ROBERT T. STEVENS, JOHN
G. ADAMS, H. STRUVE HENSEL AND SENATOR
JOE McCarthy, roy m. cohn, and
FRANCIS p. CARR
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SPECIAL SUBCOMMITTEE ON
INVESTIGATIONS OE THE COMMITTEE ON
GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
UNITED STATES SENATE
EIGHTY-THIKD CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
PURSUANT TO
S. Res. 189
PART 67
JUNE 15, 1954
Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Operations
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
46620° WASHINGTON : 1954
>V'
Boston Public Library
'uperintc-ndsnt of Documents
NOV 2 4 1954
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
JOSEPH R. MCCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas
MARGARET CHASE SMITH. Maine HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington
HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts
EVERETT Mckinley dirksen, Illinois stuart Symington, Missouri
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland THOMAS A. BURKE, Ohio
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan SAM J. ERVIN, Jr., North Carolina
Richard J, O'Melia, Oeneral Counsel
Walter L. Reynolds, Chief Clerk
Special Subcommittee on Investigations
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota, Chairman
EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington
HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri
Rat H. Jenkins, Chief Counsel
Thosias R. Prevvitt, Assistant Counsel
Robert A. Collier, Assistant Counsel
SOLis HOKWiTz, Assistant Counsel
Charles A. Manek, Secretary
II
CONTENTS
i'age
Index I
Testimony of —
Carr, Francis P., executive director, Senate Permanent Subcommittee
on Investigations 2758
Cohn, Roy M., chief counsel, Senate Permanent Subcommittee on
Investigations 2802
EXHIBITS
Introduced Appears
on page on page
38. Printed reproductionof exhibit 31 (Memorandums, October 2,
1953-March 11, 1954) - 2776 (')
39. Documents showing some of the work contributions by G.
David Schine while consultant with Senate Permanent
Subcommittee on Investigations 2802 (})
* May be found in the files of the subcommittee.
Ill
SPECIAL SENATE INVESTIGATION ON CHARGES AND
COUNTERCHARGES INVOLVING: SECRETARY OF THE
ARMY ROBERT T. STEVENS, JOHN G. ADAMS, H. STRUVE
HENSEL AND SENATOR JOE MCCARTHY, ROY M. CORN,
AND FRANCIS P. CARR
TUESDAY, JUNE 15, 1954
United States Senate,
Special Subcommittee on Investigations
OF the Committ'ee on Government Operations,
Washington^ D. G.
after recess
(The hearing was revSiimed at 2: 15 p. m., pursuant to recess.)
Present : Senator Karl E. Munclt, Eepublican, South Dakota, chair-
man; Senator Everett McKinley Dirksen, Republican, Illinois;
Senator Charles E. Potter, Republican, Michigan; Senator Henry C.
Dworshak, Republican, Idaho; Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat,
Arkansas; Senator Henry M. Jackson, Democrat, Washington; and
Senator Stuart Symington, Democrat, Missouri.
Also present : Ray M. Jenkins, chief counsel ; Thomas R. Prewitt,
assistant counsel; Charles Maner, assistant counsel.
Principal participants present: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, a
United States Senator from the State of Wisconsin; Roy M. Cohn,
chief counsel to the subcommittee; Joseph N. Welch, special counsel
for the Army; and James D. St. Clair, special counsel for the Army.
Senator Mundt. The committee will please come to order.
The Chair would like to welcome the guests who have come to the
committee to see one of the closing sessions of the committee hearings,
we hope. In all events, we are happy to have you here to watch your
Congress in action, and the Chair wants to remind you of the stand-
mg rule of the committee which is to forbid any audible manifesta-
tions of approval or disapproval, any applause, any other audible
manifestations. I have asked that the uniformed members of the
Capitol Police force take extra precautions today and that the plain-
clothes i^eople scatter(-d in the audience among you also carry out tJie
admonition of the committee today to remove immediately from the
room anyone who in any way violates the standing order of the
committee.
We welcome you as our guests. We expect you, of course, and as-
sume that you will comply with the rules of the committee. If for
any reason you elect to violate thorn and are escorted from the room,
it is virtually at your own invitation.
2757
2758 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
With that understanding, I am sure we are going to continue to
have the splendid cooperation which has marked these proceedings
throughout, with but a very few exceptions.
As we conchided this morning, Mr. St. Chair, I believe you had
just terminated a 10-minute go-around ; am I correct?
Mr, St. Clair. That is correct.
Senator Mundt. Very well. We will start now if Mr. Prewitt has
any questions.
Mr. Prewitt. I pass.
Senator Mundt. I pass. Senator McClellan hasn't come over from
the Senate floor as yet. Senator Dirksen ? Any of the Senators to my
left any questions or to my right ?
If not, Mr. Cohn or Senator McCarthy any questions?
If not, Mr. Welch or Mr. St. Clair, you have 10 minutes.
TESTIMONY OF FEANCIS P. CARE— Resumed
Mr. St. Clair. Mr. Carr, you will recall in your direct testimony
that some question was raised concerning some telephone calls or a
telephone call made by you to South Dakota to Mr. Adams. Do you
recall that ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. St. Clair. I believe your testimony was that those calls were
primarily dealing with General Lawton ; is that correct ?
Mr. Carr. I think my testimony was that I recalled one call, and
that was dealing with General Lawton ; yes.
Mr. St. Clair. Are you able to fix the date of the call ?
Mr. Carr. No. I think it was the one on the 20th ; however, I am
not sure.
Mr. St. Clair. This was during the period that you were running
down the rumors with respect to Private Schine, was it not, Mr.
Carr?
Mr. Carr. No ; I don't think so.
Mr. St. Clair. You recall you have a memorandum — I think it is
dated the 21st, is it?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. St. Clair. And your call to South Dakota was on the day before
that, on the 20th, wasn't it?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. St. Clair. So it was during the period that you were running
down these rumors, is that right ?
Mr. Carr. I don't think so, but it is in that
Mr. St. Clair. It is in that period of time ?
Mr. Carr. It is in that period of time ; that is right.
Mr. St. Clair. What did you think, Mr. Carr, Mr. Adams was
going to be able to do about General Lawton out in South Dakota ?
Mr. Carr. I didn't call Mr. Adams, as I recall it, to find out what
he was going to do about Lawton while he was in South Dakota.
Mr. St. Clair. Well, what was your conversation with Mr. Adams,
as you say, about General Lawton ?
Mr. Carr. Well, I don't recall the entire conversation.
Mr. St. Clair, Give us your best memory of the conversation.
Mr. Carr, Right, I recall that I called General Lawton — excuse
me. I called Mr, Adams to find out if any action was going to be —
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2759
any immediate action was going to be taken concerning General
Lawton.
Mr. St. Clair. Do you mean to say that after the monologue on the
I7th tiiere was any question about any action being taken about
General Lawton?
Mr. Carr. Well, I don't know what the Army might have done;
no, sir.
Mr, St. Clair. On the 24th of November, the question had been
raised, had it not?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir; I think it had.
Mr. St. Clair. General Lawton wasn't relieved then, was he?
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
Mr. St. Clair. And you say it was raised again on the 17th of
December ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. St. Clair. General Lawton wasn't relieved then, was he?
Mr. Carr. No, sir,
Mr. St. Clair. What did you think Mr. Adams knew out in South
Dakota that could be of help to you about General Lawton ?
Mr. Carr. At this point I don't know what Mr. Adams might
have known while he was in South Dakota,
Mr. St. Clair. You don't make calls that far away just for pure
curiosity, do you ?
Mr. Carr. No, sir. I can explain why I made the call,
Mr, St, Clair, Would you, please ?
Mr, Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Colin requested me to find out from John Adams what, what and
when, any action on this removal of Lawton would take place, if it
would take place immediately. At this point I don't recall whether it
was concerning the next few days or whether immediately meant with-
in a period of hours or a period of a week. Mr. Adams was in South
Dakota. In order to find out, I called him out there.
Mr. St. Clair. What did Mr. Adams say to you?
Mr. Carr. As I recall, he said that he didirt think any action would
be taken immediately. That is my recollection.
Mr. St. Clair. Mr. Adams tolcl you that riding back on the train
on the 25th of November, didn't he, Mr. Carr?
Mr. Carr. Yes; but this is now December and the question came up
again, I believe, on the 17th.
Mr. St. Clair. I see. So Mr. Adams said he didn't know anything
about it ; is that it ?
Mr. Carr. No ; Mr. Adams said that he was — I don't — I am not re-
calling it specifically enough to say that he said that he would not be
removed immediately or within the next few days, or whether or not
he said that — said with definiteness that he either will or won't be
within a matter of time. I know that he told me that he did not think
that he would be removed. Whether he made it real positive, I don't
know.
Mr. St. Clair. Was the name Schine mentioned at all?
Mr. Carr. I don't recall that it was.
Mr. St. Clair. Would you state definitely whether or not he was?
Mr. Carr. I think that I could state definitely that it wasn't. My
best recollection is that it wasn't. I am almost positive that it wasn't.
2760 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Mr. St. Clair. Well, now, if the telephone records show that you in
fact made two calls to South Dakota, would you say that you made
both calls about General Lawton ?
Mr. Carr. I would say that ; yes, sir.
Mr. St. Clair. Do you recall the second telephone conversation ?
Mr. Carr. Not at all. I recall only one telephone conversation to
South Dakota.
Mr. St. Clair. I believe it is correct, the record shows one on the
24th of December as well.
Mr. Carr. That is what I understand.
Mr. St. Clair. You have no memory of that one at all ?
Mr. Carr. I recall — well, it may be the one on the 24th that I
remember.
Mr. St. Clair. Well, at least you don't recall a second one?
Mr. Carr. One telephone conversation.
Mr. St. Clair. You don't recall the second one at all ?
Mr. Carr. No, sir. I don't.
Mr. St. Clair. Could it have been that you talked about Schine on
the second one?
Mr. Carr. I don't think so. I think I would recall it.
Mr. St. Clair. You don't remember it, do you ?
Mr. Carr. I don't remember it.
Mr. St. Clair. So you don't know what was said, do you?
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
Mr. St. Clair. Now let's move in to January. Do you recall the
date when the loyalty boards were first called ? Perhaps I can help
you. I think it was January 18.
Mr. Carr. I think that is correct ; yes.
Mr. St. Clair. On January 17, Mr. Cohn was in Florida, was he
not?
Mr. Carr. I think so.
Mr. St. Clair. He had gone down just that day or the day previous,
had he not?
Mr. Carr. I am not sure.
Mr. St. Clair. He hadn't been there very long ?
Mr. Carr. I don't think he had ; no. I am not sure.
Mr. St. Clair. Because this was a conversation in his office about
which there is a dispute on the 14th.
Mr. Carr. The 14th, that is right.
Mr. St. Clair. Mr. Cohn returned on the day that the loyalty boards
were called, did he not?
Mr. Carr. He was here on the 19th, I believe, the day that Mr.
Adams came in.
Mr. St. Clair. That is right. As a matter of fact, he came in the
evening of the 18th ?
Mr. Carr. I think that is probably true.
Mr. St. Clair. That is right. Do you know why he came back so
suddenly ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, I think I do.
Mr. St. Clair. Perhaps you should tell us.
Mr. Carr. All right. He came back in connection with one of the
reports. I believe it was the Voice of America report, which was the
last one of the series that we were putting out during the period from,
to
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2761
I think, the last week in December right up through the middle or late
January.
Mr, St. Clair. This is one Dave Schine worked on ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. St. Clair. Dave Schine was in Florida, too, wasn't he?
Mr. Carr. I don't know. He was? Yes, sir, he was.
Mr. St. Clair. Dave Schine didn't come back, did he?
Mr. Carr . No, sir.
Mr. St. Clair. Mr. Cohn came back ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. St. Clair. Was there something wrong with the report, Mr.
Carr?
Mr. Carr. Something wrong with the report?
Mr. St. Clair. Yes. It is rather strange to me that Mr. Cohn would
go down to Florida for a day or two and then suddenly be back here
for the report. Was there something wrong with it?
Mr. Carr. The first part of the question, I don't think it is strange
that Mr. Cohn would go to Plorida for a day or two. The second
part of the question
Mr. St. Clair. I don't mean to be unfair about it, but
Mr. Carr. I am sure you don't, sir.
Mr. St. Clair. All right.
Mr. Carr. I just wanted to explain it.
Mr. St. Clair. Sure.
Mr. Carr. The second portion, as I recall — and this is recollection —
Mr. Cohn had given me or somebody on the staff — I think it was me —
an outline of the final part of this last report. This was it, as far as
we were concerned. He asked that one of the staff members write it
and fill it in and get it ready.
As I recall it, he telephoned from down in Florida with some dicta-
tion on that. I don't know who he dictated it to. I think he dictated
it to one of the girls in the office. It ditln't go over very well on the
telephone. He didn't like what had been done. He said he would
come back up and finish it up.
Mr. St. Clair. This was the report, again, that Mr. Schine was
working on ?
Mr. Carr. Mr. Schine had worked on this report.
Mr. St. Clair. Mr. Schine didn't do the dictating over the tele-
phone, did he?
Mr. Carr. No. Mr. Cohn did that.'
Mr. St. Clair. That is right. The first thing that happened upon
Mr. Cohn's return was the call for the loyalty board, isn't that correct?
Mr. Carr. No. I think the call had been made for the loyalty board
the preceding day.
Mr. St. Clair. What day was that?
Mr. Carr. The 18th.
Mr. St. Clair. That is the night he returned?
Mr. Carr. Oh, all right.
Mr. St. Clair. Isn't that right?
Mr. Carr. Right.
Mr. St. Clair. Mr. Adams actually appeared on the 10th ?
Mr. Carr. I think the 19th, yes.
46G20°— 51— pt. 67 2
27G2 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Mr. St. Clair. The afternoon of the 19th?
Mr. Carr. The 19th. I am not sure about morning or afternoon.
Senator Mundt. Your time has expired.
Mr. Prewitt? The Chair will pass. Any questions from Senators
to my left ? To my right ? Senator IMcCarthy or Mr. Cohn ?
Proceed, Mr. St. Clair, another 10 minutes.
Mr. St. Clair. Just to set the record straight, my information is
that the loyalty boards were actually called on the 19th of January.
Would you like to check that ?
Mr. Carr. The 19th is the date that Mr. Adams came in. You are
right. It was in the afternoon.
Mr, St. Clair. That is right. He received a call in the morning
from you, I believe ?
Mr. Carr. I think that is true, in the morning or maybe the after-
noon before.
Mr. St. Clair. Did you talk with Mr. Cohn about the prospect of
calling the loyalty board when he returned from Florida?
Mr. Carr. No ; I don't think I did.
Mr. St. Clair. Did you do that on your own, or did you receive
instructions ?
Mr. Carr. To call the loyalty board ?
Mr. St. Clair. The loyalty board.
Mr. Carr. Instructions from Senator McCarthy.
Mr. St. Clair. I see. Did you discuss it with him ?
Mr. Carr. Senator McCarthy?
Mr. St. Clair. Yes.
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. St. Clair. When did you first discuss it with him ?
Mr. Carr. I think — when did I first discuss calling the loyalty
board ?
Mr. St. Clair. About this time, when did you first take the matter
up?
Mr. Carr. In connection with calling them the second time ?
Mr. St. Clair. That is right.
Mr. Carr. I think it was on the 18th. I think it was the 18th.
Mr. St. Clair. What were the circumstances, sir ?
Mr. Carr. I don't recall, sir, but as I recall it, the Senator said that
he thought it was time we started getting in some of the members of
the loyalty board. We talked about the situation, and he told me to
call John Adams and see if it were possible to bring in some of the
people who were actually here in Washington before the loyalty board.
Mr. St. Clair. Was it contemplated, if you know, sir, that the chief
counseJ, Mr. Cohn, would take part in these hearings?
Mr. Carr. No, it wasn't.
Mr. St. Clair. That is, he was not to participate. You were to run
it, as I understand it.
Mr. Carr. I wouldn't say that he was not to take part. It wasn't
contemplated that he would or he wouldn't. The Senator was going
to be present, and I was going to be present. I made the arrangements
with Mr. Adams.
Mr. St. Clair. Does Mr. Cohn ever miss some of the hearings that
are conducted by the subcommittee?
Mr. Carr. Yes, he does, sir.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2763
Mr. St. Clair. Now I would like to take up with you, sir, some
questions about your telephone calls that have been monitored that I
think are already in the record. Do you have copies of them?
Mr. Caer. Yes, sir; I think I do.
Yes, sir.
Mr. St. Clair. I overlooked one thing I wanted to ask you about
before we get to them.
Do you recall the circumstances of the meeting of the 14th of Janu-
ary in which Mr. Adams testified that Mr. Cohn made remarks about
wrecking the Army and you and Mr. Cohn testified that that didn't
happen? Do you recall that?
Air. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. St. Clair. Were you present at all times during the conference,
Mr. Carr?
Mr. Carr. This is the 14th ?
Mr. St. Clair. Yes.
My. Carr. No. I think I have testified that during the first part
of the conference I was in and out of the room once or so.
Mr. St. Clair. I think your testimony was that you weren't there
for the beginning of it?
Mr. Carr. I think that is it.
Mr. St. Clair. How long did the conference take place insofar as
you participated in it?
Mr. Carr. I really don't know how long it took place.
Mr. St. Clair. How long were you out of the room after you first
came in?
Mr. Carr. As I recall it, it was a matter of going out in the ante-
room, the next room to our office, and coming back in, and possibly
go out and coming back in once or twice.
Mr. St. Clair. Would you be gone just a minute or two, or would
you be gone longer than that ?
Mr. Carr. I would say just a minute or two.
Mr. St. Clair. I see. When you say you weren't there at the be-
ginning, you must have come in when Mr. Adams and Mr. Cohn were
there alone ; is that correct ?
Mr. Carr. No. As I recall it, I believe I was there when Mr. Adams
arrived, but during that first portion I was in and out of the room
once or twice.
Mr. St. Clair. Then you don't want to state that you wasn't there
at the beginning of it?
Mr. Carr. I don't think it would be a misstatement
Mr. St. Clair. It is perfectly all right. I just want to know what
it is.
Mr. Carr. It is as I testified. I wasn't there throughout the entire
early part of the conversation. I was in and out.
Mr. St. Clair. I would like to read you, sir, your testimony from
page 6558. I will read it. I think you won't disagree with my read-
ing. Mr. Prewitt asked you the following question :
Were you within liearing distniice of Mr. Colin and Mr. Adams during the
entire time of their conversation on this particular day?
And you answered :
Yes; I was, except for the very beginning of the conversation on the 14th;
yes, sir.
2764 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
You could have been mistaken or you could have been confused
about it, but were you there for the beginning of it and then left from
time to time, or were you just not there when it started ?
]\Ir. Carr. It is my recollection that I was there when Mr. Adams
arrived. It is my recollection that during the beginning of the con-
versation, the early part of the conversation, for some reason or other
I was called out of the room and I was in and out of the room maybe
once or twice.
Mr. St. Clair. You were out answering and making telephone calls ;
is that correct ; weren't you ?
Mr. Carr. I don't really know why I was out.
Mr. St. Clair. Do you have any recollection ?
Mr. Carr. No, it could have been some office business.
Mr. St. Clair. It could be that you were out for more than just
a moment or two, couldn't it?
Mr. Carr. It could be. But my recollection is that I was there for
just a moment or two, running in and out for some reason. What it
is, I don't know.
Mr. St. Clair. In any event, you were not there all the time ?
Mr. Carr. That is correct.
Mr. St. Clair. And you were not there, particularly, at the front
end of the conversation ?
Mr. Carr. That is correct.
Mr. St. Clair. Now, let's turn to your telephone conversations,
Mr. Carr. I am not sure that I am right in saying this, but I got the
impression that yesterday you thought or you testified that Mr. Adams
sought you out in the latter part of February and the early part of
March and wanted to talk to you.
Mr. Carr. Is that concerning — was that concerning the business in
the first part of February ?
Mr. St. Clair. No, the first part of March. I could be wrong about
it. But do you recall whether you sought Mr. Adams out or he sought
you out ?
Mr. Carr. Well, I don't — I don't rightly know. I think it might
have been one or the other. I recall that he — in talking about the 5th
of March — I recall that he had specific things he wanted me to do.
I don't know whether that is seeking me out or not.
Mr. St. Clair. Did you have specific things you wanted him to do?
Mr. Carr. No, not at that time; no.
Mr. St. Clair. Let's look at your phone call for the 2d day of March.
Mr. Carr. All right, sir.
Mr. St. Clair. Do you have it there?
Mr. Carr. 5 : 45 in the afternoon ?
Mr. St. Clair. Yes, sir. And I think it is about the second from
the bottom, the little paragraph that says:
Mr. Carr. I guess that is about it, except that I would very much like to get
together with you on this so we could have a private chat sometime while we
have a quiet moment.
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir ?
Mr. St. Clair. What was this you were talking about?
Mr. Carr. I think it refers to the conversation we are talking about
here.
Mr. St. Clair. What was that, sir?
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2765
Mr. Carr. This is the matter, if I may take a moment here
Mr. St. Clair. Certainly.
Mr. Carr. Oh, yes, this refers to the fact that during this period,
as I recall, we had before the subcommittee people like Major Peress,
and other uniformed Army personnel. I think that is what that refers
to. And durinfij this period, I think that Secretary Stevens was to
appear before the committee, and his appearance was put off.
Mr. St. Cl.\ir. Was this the time that you testified yesterday that
Mr. Adams talked with you about whether or not Mr. Cohn was mad
at him and what you could do to patch it up?
Mr. Carr. Well, this — no, the time that I spoke to him about that
was — Mr. Cohn and Senator McCarthy. That conversation is on the
5tli of March.
Mr. St. Clair. On the 5th of March?
Mr. Carr. Yes.
Mr. St. Clair. As of the 2d of March, you asked Mr. Adams to come
to see you so you could have a private chat, is that correct ?
Mr. Carr. Well, I said to Mr. Adams, "I would much like to get
together on this so we could have a chat" ; right.
Mr. St. Clair. That is correct?
Mr. Carr. That is correct.
Mr. St. Clair. I don't mean to elaborate unnecessarily on these.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch, your time has expired. We will get
back to you directly.
Does Mr. Prewitt have any questions?
Mr. Prewitt. No questions.
Senator Mundt. The Chair has none.
Any Senators to mv left or right ?
Senator McCarthy"?
Back to you, Mr. Welch or Mr. St. Clair.
Mr. St. Clair. Now on the 4th of March, Mr. Carr, do you have
that?
Mr. Carr. Yes ; 9 : 25.
Mr. St. Clair. Yes. And on the last page, if you will find where
you said, "I want to come over on other things." "I want to come over
on other things."
It is near the bottom. I think it is the ninth subject up from the
bottom.
Senator Mundt. Time out while the witness locates it.
Mr. Carr. I find it.
Senator Mundt. Time back in.
Mr. St. Clair. Do you find that?
Mr. Carr. I find that.
Mr. St. Clair. Here, again, you were asking Mr. Adams to come
over to see you; is that right?
Mr. Carr. Yes; it can be termed that.
Mr. St. Clair. Well, it says, "I want you to come over on other
things."
Mr. Carr. That is right.
Mr. St. Clair. That is right, isn't it?
Mr. Carr. That is right.
Mr. St. Clair. And then someone suggested that very good eating
place, the Methodist Building; is that right?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
2766 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Mr. St. Clair. Now, turninfr to the 5th of March
Mr. Carr. Just a moment, sir.
Mr. St. Clair. Have you found it, sir ?
Mr. Carr. Right.
Mr. St. Clair. You are familiar with that portion of it that deals
with Cadillacs and Chevrolets and things, don't you?
Mr. Carr. Eecall what, sir ?
Mr. St. Clair. That portion of this call that deals with Cadillacs
and secondhand Chevrolets ?
Mr. Carr. I don't recall ; yes.
Mr. St. Clair. It is quite a long call. I am trying to orient it.
Mr. Carr. Right.
Mr. St. Clair. And almost immediately following that, there is
some discussion about a leadership school, isn't that correct?
Mr. Carr. Is that the following of that
Mr. St. Clair. Let me read :
Mr. Adams. I don't want you to tell Roy, because I don't want him to think
he has a commitment to leadership school.
Do you find that ?
Mr. Carr. I am sure it is here. I will find it.
Mr. St. Clair. Take your time. "We are in no great hurry.
Senator Mundt. Speak only for yourself on that one.
Mr. Carr. Right.
Mr. St. Clair. Do you find that ?
Mr. Carr. Right.
Mr. St. Clair. Do you know of any reason why Mr. Adams
wouldn't want Roy told about the leadership course?
Mr. Carr. Yes.
Mr. St. Clair. Well, for what reason would he not want Roy to
know ?
Mr. Carr. I think Mr. Adams had in mind that this was something
that had not been straightened out, something that had not been
settled. It seems to me that some time earlier Mr. Adams had told
Mr. Cohn that Mr. Schine would be in training in some school down
in Georgia, Camp Gordon, I believe, for a period of — first he told
him 5 weeks and then it was 8 weeks and then it was 10 weeks. And
Mr. Adams was somewhat embarrassed when it turned out to be
something like several months.
This happened, I think some time in January. I think that is why
he doesn't want to tell Mr. Cohn something and then later have to
tell him something else.
Mr. St. Clair. If you know, what difference does it make? Sup-
pose it turned out to be 5 years. Was it any business of Mr. Cohn ?
Mr. Carr. I think you have to remember the date of this call.
Mr. St. Clair. It was March 5.
Mr. Carr. That is correct, March 5. But between March 5 and
some time I think it was the 18th of February, many things hap-
pened— which made it — which would lead some people to believe that
possibly Mr, Schine might not be going to this school or whatever he
was going to down in Georgia.
Mr. St. Clair. But still it isn't for Mr. Cohn to tell the Army what
to do with Schine, is it ?
Mr. Carr. Of course not; no. But the Army had told Mr. Cohn
what was going to happen. That is correct.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2767
Mr. St. Clair. Mr. Adams had told Mr. Cohn about it?
Mr. Carr. That is the way I understand it.
Mr. St. Clair. Do you think Mr. Adams volunteered that, or do
you think Mr. Cohn asked for that information ?
Mr. Carr. I don't know.
Mr. St. Clair. Do I now refresh your recollection as to the subject
of your telephone calls to South Dakota ?
Mr. Carr. No ; you don't, sir.
Mr. St. Clair. That had to do, did it not, with how long he was
going to be at Camp Gordon ?
Mr Carr. My testimony and my recollection both are to effect
that
Mr. St. Clair. Well, if I haven't refreshed your recollection, I
haven't done it. Right?
Mr. Carr. That is correct.
Mr. St. Clair. Now, you said "He will be pestering me to know if
anyone will change other things."
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. St. Clair. Had Mr. Cohn been pestering you about Private
Schine?
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
Mr. St. Clair. You predicted that he would be, didn't you?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir. This is the future tense.
Mr. St. Clair. I said you predicted.
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. St. Clair. "If anyone will change other things." That means
other things about Private Schine, doesn't it?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. St. Clair. What other things were you referring to, Mr. Carr?
Mr. Carr. I think — this is a conversation which I didn't know was
being recorded, in spite of some of the language in these conversations.
It is some time ago. My recollection of it is that when I said, "He
will be pestering me to know if anyone will change other things" —
my recollection is that the "other things" were the schooling that Mr.
Schine was scheduled to go to.
Mr. St. Clair. That is your recollection. Would that have been
a New York assignment, Mr. Carr ?
Mr. Carr. No, sir. As I recall, this was
Mr. St. Clair. All right. You said no.
Mr. Carr. All right.
Mr. St. Clair. Mr. Adams says :
What other things? What . . . expected to do?
Then you said :
I would like to report, looks about same as before. This part I won't.
What was it that you wanted to report as being the same as before?
Mr. Carr. As I say, this is a somewhat garbled conversation.
Mr. St. Clair. I know, but we have to struggle with it.
Mr. Carr. That is right. Struggling along with it, 1 would say
then that I refer here to the fact that I would like to say to Mr. (John
that the Army was not going to make any change in Mr. Schine's
assignment whicli he had earned Vv'hile at Fort Dix because of the
fact that some of the newspapers had made mucli of a disagreement
between Senator McCarthv and the Secretary of the Army.
2768 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Mr. St. Clair. How did 3-011 know he had earned anything, Mr.
Carr ? I understood you didn't care much what happened to him in
the military.
Mr. Carr. I didn't care much what happened to him in the military.
Mr, St. Clair. Then how do j^ou know whether he earned or hadn't
earned anything ?
Mr, Carr. Mr. Adams or Mr, Cohn, and I believe it was Mr, Adams,
told me that Mr, Schine had been thrown into some sort of a cate-
gory— and this is something I don't know too much about — in the
Army, when you go through oasic training you are graded and selected
by categories, and if you fall in certain categories you become infantry-
men, if you fall in another category you become an investigator, an-
other category, and so on.
Mr, St, Claie. Are you trying to suggest that perhaps the Army
discriminated against this private?
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
Mr. St. Clair. As far as you know, there was no such discrimina-
tion, isn't that true ?
Mr. Carr. As far as I know, there was no discrimination. There
was talk in the paper about his not going to a school, but I don't know
that there was discrimination.
Mr. St. Clair. That is what you think you were talking about when
you said that you wanted to report that there had been no change?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. St. Claik. Did you think it was rather strange for you, the
director of this subcommittee staff, to be still talking about Schine
after all of these months?
Mr. Carr, No, I think if you go back in this conversation, you
see that Mr, Adams first brought up the name of Schine.
Mr. St. Clair. No, but you didn't tell him "Don't bother me with
Schine." You didn't say that or anything like it.
Mr. Carr, No, at this point
Mr. St. Clair. It was the normal subject of conversation between
both of you, the two of you, wasn't it?
Mr. Carr. At this point in the game, there was this, as I say, some-
what overplayed controversy between the Senator and the Secretary.
The press had made a big thino; of it. At this point I was interested
to see that Mr. Shine w^as not discriminated against because of some-
thing that was going on in the committee.
Mr. St. Clair. You were fearful also that this private would be
discriminated against ?
Mr. Carr. I was not fearful that he would be discriminated against,
but I think I would be less than frank to say that
Mr. St. Clair. You are invited to be frank.
Mr. Carr (continuing). That I didn't have an interest in it at this
point.
Mr. St. Clair. When did your interest develop, Mr. Carr?
Mr. Carr. I don't know exactly how to answer that question.
Mr. St. Clair. Do the best you can with it.
Mr. Carr. All right, sir. It seems to me that this was the period —
and this is just my recollection — this was the period following the
much built-up controversy between the Secretary and the Senator.
In conversations I had with Mr. Cohn and the Senator, at some time
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2769
mention was made of the fact that they might possibly cancel out
Dave's school that he was going to, because of this controversy.
Senator Mundt. Mr. St. Clair's time has expired.
Have you any questions, Mr. Prewitt?
Mr. Prewitt. I pass.
Senator Mundt. The Chair has none.
Any Senators to my left or right ? Mr. Cohn or Senator McCarthy ?
You may continue another 10 minutes, Mr. Welch or Mr. St. Clair.
Mr. St. Clair, I am almost through.
Then you made this statement :
This would indicate that he would get whatever he is supposed to get?
That is in the form of a question.
Mr. Carr. That is correct.
Mr. St. Clair. What did you think he was supposed to get, Mr.
Carr?
Mr. Carr. Let me say this first. I don't know whether it was in
the form of a question when I originally said it.
Mr. St. Clair. It says so here. You have to take it from there.
Mr. Carr. I will go along with that.
This would indicate that he would get whatever he was supposed
to get.
Mr. St. Clair. What was it that you thought he was supposed to
get ?
Mr. Carr. I thought he was supposed to get anything in the Army
that he had earned and deserved. Mr. Adams always indicated to
me that that is what he would get in the Army.
Mr. St. Clair. You have never learned anyl^ing else about it;
have you ?
Mr. Carr. I never have. That is right
Mr. St. Clair. Did Mr, Cohn have a different view from you on
that subject?
Mr. Carr. I don't think he did.
Mr. St. Clair, Did Mr. Cohn think he had to get more than he got?
Mr. Carr. I don't think he did ; no.
Mr. St. Cl.\ir. Do you think he should have gotten more than he
got?
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
Mr. St. Clair. You are satisfied with his status at the moment ; are
you?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir. As I said earlier, I thought that— I think I
said earlier I thought that he was qualified for a commission. The
fact that they didn't give him a commission is their business.
Mr. St. Clair. When did you think he was qualified for a commis-
sion?
Mr. Carr. All along. I still think he is.
Mr. St Clair. You hadn't even met him until the middle of August,
had you ?
Mr. Carr. No, but what I have been told about him
Mr. St. Clair. I see. Somebody told you something about him
and tlicn you thouglit he ought to have had a commission?
Mr. Carr. That is correct.
Ml'. St. Clair. That is the only basis for your statement?
46620°— 54— pt. 6T 3
2770 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
]Mr. Carr. No. Yes and no. My knowledoe of him comes mainly
from what other people have told me. I did have some association
with him during the fall before he left for the Army.
ilr. St. Clair. Now, passing on a little bit further down, do you
find the place where it says :
Mr. Carr. But don't tell this to Roy?
I skipped quite a few because I want to get through it.
Mr. Carr. Yes, I find it.
Mr. St. Clair. Do you find it ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, I find it.
Mr. St. Clair. Why is it that you didn't want Roy to know about
this leadership course?
]Mr. Carr. I don't think I didn't want Roy to know about it. I
think Mr. Adams didn't want him to know about it.
Mr. St. Clair. But you are the one who says "But don't you tell
this to Roy."
Mr. Carr. That is what this monitored phone call seems to imply.
Mr. St. Clair. Sure. It doesn't only imply it. It says it, doesn't
it?
Mr. Carr. It says it. On the other hand, this is what somebody
typed up who says they took down some things and they missed other
things.
Mr. St. Clair. You are saying this is wrong, is that it?
Mr. Carr. I am not saying this is wrong. I am saying that I don't
recall saying it this way. My recollection of this phone call is that
it is pretty much as it appears here, except that I would think, looking
back at it — and that is all I can do at this point — I would think looking
back at it that Mr. Adams probably said that, for this reason: He
says down here, starts a sentence oflf :
Reason I won't tell bim is tie would start calling me —
et cetera.
Mr. St. Clair. He agreed with you, didn't he, that you shouldn't
tell Roy? You and he were in agreement on that?
Mr. Carr. That is what it looks like ; yes, sir.
Mr. St. Clair. You both had had the same experience with Roy
when the problem of Private Schine came up, hadn't you?
ISIr. Carr. No.
Mr. St. Cl.\ir. All right.
Mr. Carr. I don't know what his experience was.
Mr. St. Clair. In any event, you kiiow what his experience was,
don't you ? You heard his testimony.
Mr. Carr. I heard his testimony, right.
Mr. St. Clair. You said, "But don't you tell this to Roy," and then
Mv. Adams says "I won't." Then you said, "I want a commitment
on that."
Do you see that ?
Mr. Carr. I see it.
]Mr. St. Clair. You made it very firm that you did not want Roy
to know about this leadership school.
Mr. Carr. As I say here — I can read this thing several ways, and I
am sure that you can read it a few more.
Mr. St. Clair. I find it hard to read it any other way but that
you didn't want Roy to know.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2771
Mr. Carr. All right. If I go along with you on that, I think I
would have to go back and say — I am trying to be agreeable with you,
Mr. St. Clair — if I go back and say I go along with you on that, then
I would have to go back and say that perhaps it refers back to this
statement in wdiich Mr. Adams says, "Four weeks does not make a man
a general."
Mr. St. Clair. That wasn't what you didn't want Roy to know, is
it?
Mr. Carr. I don't know. That is what it says here.
Mr. St. Clair. Oh, now, Mr. Carr, you don't want us to under-
stand that you wanted a commitment that Mr. Adams wouldn't tell
Eoy that 4 weeks didn't make a general.
Mr. Carr. No, but we are sitting here at this point trying to figure
out what something meant several months ago at a time when I didn't
know something was being monitored. We already have testimony
that several
Mr. St. Clair. Well, that is true of a lot of people, but there it is,
and let's go on with it.
Mr. Carr. That is what I am trying to do. I am trying to make it
out here. Another thing I think about this, that if it refers back to
this, "i weeks does not make a man a general" I think it may be a
facetious remark on my part, or that of Mr. Adams.
Mr. St. Clair. But you weren't being facetious when you said, "I
want a commitment on that"; were you?
Mr. Carr, I may very well have been.
Mr. St. Clair. You could have been ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. St. Clair, You want to leave it now that what you didn't want
Eoy to know was that 4 weeks did not make a general ?
Mr. Carr. No ; I want to leave it the way it is here.
Mr. St. Clair. All right, let's leave it the way it is here, then ; shall
we?
Mr, Carr. Eight, sir.
Mr. St. Clair. How- much time, Mr, Chairman ?
Senator Mundt, You have 4 minutes.
Mr. St. Clair. I think that I would like — more than like— I will
defer to my senior, Mv. Welch.
Senator Mundt, Mr. Welch, you have the 4 minutes.
Mr. Welch. Mr. Carr, I want to talk to you a little about your
office staff and setup. I think we have heard different numbers here,
not that I attach significance to it, as to the number of men you have
on that staff.
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Will you now tell us definitely how many men there
are on that staff?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir. I think I have that right here. It is my recol-
lection that there are 14, but I would like to give you a breakdown.
]\Ir. Welch. I believe that is right. I think we have heard the
figures 10 and 14, but since I am sure we have heard 14, if you think
now that is correct, I will be willing to assume it is. I am not going
to even insist that you be correct. But that is probably right?
Mr, Carr. I think that is correct.
Mr. Welch. And of those 14, how many are lawyers?
2772 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
]Mr. Carr. I believe it is five who are lawyers.
Mr. Welch. Five lawyers; yes?
Mr. Carr. Five are investigators.
Mr. Welch. Five investigators.
Mr. Carr. One research director.
Mr. W^ELCH. One research director.
Mr. Carr. One accountant.
Mr. Welch. One accountant?
Mr. Carr. Yes.
IMr. Welch. Eight.
Mr. Carr. The executive director.
Mr. Welch. That is you?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir. And the chief counsel.
Mr. Welch. Six lawyers in all, do you mean, then ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. One chief counsel. Now we are up to, then?
Mr. Carr. That would be G and 6 and 2.
Mr. AVelch. I am wrong. That is the whole 14. Now, as to women,
how many?
Mr. Carr. Women ; there are 10, I believe.
Mr. Welch. And how are they divided up as to their duties ?
Mr. Carr. There is a chief clerk.
Mr. Welch. One chief clerk.
Mr. Carr. A staff editor.
Mr. Welch. A staff editor? Staff editor?
Mr. Carr. Eight.
]Mr. Welch. That is a new one on me. What would that be?
Mr. Carr. That is the young lady who takes care of getting out
the printed hearings. Then there are seven assistant clerks.
Mr. Welch. Seven assistant clerks ?
Mr. Carr. Yes.
Mr. Welch. What do they do ?
Mr. Carr. Well, seven assistant clerks are secretaries, and assist-
ant clerk covers many jobs, secretaries
Mv. Welch. Do those seven have secretarial training?
Mr. Carr. Yes, I think so.
Mr. Welch. And do secretarial work?
Mr. Carr. At least most of them.
Mr. Welch. Is one of them especially assigned to you as a sec-
retary ?
Mr. Carr. Mrs. Minis is secretary to both Mr. Colin and myself.
Mr. Welch. Well, I take it that quite a lot of his secretarial work
is done either in the Senator's office or in New York; is that right?
Mr. Carr. Well, I suppose that he does do some in New York, al-
though I don't know too much about that. I haven't seen much of
that. He does do some in Senator McCarthy's office ; yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. If you were to estimate how much of Mrs. Mims' time
is consumed by you and how much by Mr. Colin, what would you
say?
Mr. Carr. Well, I would have to add a third entity to that and say
that Mrs. Minis also does work for the rest of the staff when she is
not doing something for us. So we would have three, and I would
say it would be divided into — I would say perhaps equal parts.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2773
Senator Mundt. Time has expired. Any questions of anybody to
my right ?
Senator Dirksen.
Senator Dirksen. Mr. Carr, how long have you known Mr. St,
Clair?
Mr. Carr. Mr. St. Clair?
Senator Dirksen. Yes ; sitting at the counsel table.
Mr. Carr. I think it is some 31 or 32 days, since the beginning of
these hearings. That is the first time I ever saw him. I am not
sure I was introduced to him that day, but throughout these hearings.
Senator Dirksen. Would you feel, Mr. Carr, on the basis of his
presentation and such background as you know, that he would be
qualified for a commission in the Army?
Mr. Carr. Yes ; I would.
Senator Dirksen. Even on the basis of 32 days?
Mr. Carr. Yes ; I would. On the basis of today, sir.
Senator Dirksen. I notice Mr. St. Clair raised the question with
respect to that telephone call of March 9, that assuming the name
Schine came up, that you did not protest?
Mr. Carr. This March 9 telephone call ?
Senator Dirksen. Well, the last telephone call, that you did not
protest ?
Mr. Capj?. Yes, sir.
Senator Dirksen. By the way, Mr. Carr, who applied that rather
interesting term to you, the strong, silent man?
Mr. Carr. I really don't know. That is one of those press things,
I guess.
Senator Dirksen. Would you have some suspicion as to who applied
it in this hearing room ?
Mr. Carr. Oh, yes, I recall.
Senator Dirksen. And who was it?
Mr. Carr. Mr. Welch, I think.
Senator Dirksen. Oh, yes. Now, the silent man doesn't protest,
does he ? If he is a strong, silent man he is not the protesting type,
M'ouldn't you say ?
Mr. Carr. No", sir.
Senator Dirksen. That is good enough.
Senator Mundt. Any other questions?
Senator Jackson.
Senator Jackson. Mr. Carr. may I compliment you, not only in
addition to being the strong, silent man, but I want to say you are
possessed of the kind of temperament that is needed in a hearing
that lasts 7 weeks. As a witness, I think you have all of that tempera-
ment that is so necessary for survival. I think you have good witness
temperament.
Mr. Carr. Thank you, sir.
Senator Jackson. You still have your sense of humor. Not all of
them can hold it, you know.
Senator Mundt. Any other questions from the head of the table ?
If not, any questions, Mr. Colin ?
Mr. CoHN. No, sir.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch, you have another 10 minutes.
Mr. AVelch. Mr. Carr, I find that witnesses often like to know how
long they are apt to be on the stand. I will say that if we don't run
2774 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
into heavy interruptions, we should easily be through this afternoon.
I thought you would like to know that.
IMrs. Minis is your secretary and she also works for Mr. Cohn, if
she needs to, when he is around, and what is the other man she may
take work from ?
Mr. Carr. Any of the investigators or assistant counsel.
Mr. "Welch. But I suppose generally they dictate to the other 6
secretaries or 6 stenographers; is that right?
Mr. Carr. Well, generally, but JNIrs. Mims does do a good deal of
work for them. I think that she probably does almost as much as the
other girls do for the investigators.
Mr. Welch. Do you have a sort of a No. 2 girl that you can call on
if you are short on time available by Mrs. Mims ?
Mr. Carr. Well, I could call on any of them. However, I can't
remember a day when Mrs. Mims wasn't there.
Mr. Welch. And I take it you, as executive director, or whatever
your title may be, you have the power to command stenographic help
for yourself when you want it, do you not ?
Mr. Carr. Yes.
Mr. Welch. It is indicated here, and I have nothing but admiration
if it is so, and I am sure it is, that everybody in this office w'orks long
hours and hard ; is that right, sir ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir ; I think that is true.
Mr. Welch. And I take it that you are quite a tightly knit little
community of people?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir ; I think we are now.
Mr. Welch. And I think whatever appellations that I inadvert-
ently or "vertently" have added to you I think it strikes me that you
would not be a person that would be vevy dictatorial in your office or
very proud or unapproachable ; is that right, sir ?
Mr. Carr. I haven't objected to your adjectives; no, sir.
Mr. "Welch. And I suspect that you — well, indeed, I hear you all
using each other's first name ; is that right ?
Mr. Carr. That is quite common ; yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. I wish you to know I think that is a nice way to run
an office. And I take it — strike that out.
Now, when Mr. Cohn is in Washington, he spends — I gather from
his testimony, I think that is where I got it and I don't assert it is
necessarily true — but he spends a good deal of his time in the Senator's
office?
Mr. Carr. Yes ; that is true.
Mr. Welch. About what portion, would you think, if you know?
Mr. Carr. Well, it is a little difficult for me to say. Perhaps you
better ask him. You see, I don't know all of the time that he is in
Washington.
Mr. Welch. All right. _
Mr. Carr. A good portion.
Mr. Welch. I don't think we need to dwell on it, but I know he
is up there a good deal.
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. And I gather from the conversation that we have had
in this room that you are also up there a good deal ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir ; I am there quite often.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2775
Mr. Welch. Would you say you are there every day, Mr. Carr, or
not?
Mr. Carr. No, I wouldn't say I was there every day ; no, sir. But
I would say that some — usually some part of every day I am there,
but not every day.
Mr. Welch. And if you are there every day, would your call be a
10-minute call or half -hour call or even longer at times ?
Mr. Carr. Tliat is very difficult to say. I would say that it would
range from maybe a 1-minute visit one day to an all-day stay the
next time.
Mr. Welch. And I take it you are on the first-name basis with some
of the people in that office ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Name some of them, if you will.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Carr, unless it is important to this hear-
ing, I ask that you not name any people in my office. I know that
there is a campaign by the Alsops, the Pearsons
Mr. Welch. I won't ask. Senator. I don't care about the others.
We can stop right here. I don't wish to know them, Senator.
Senator McCarthy. Let me finish.
Mr. Welch. Senator, if you don't want them told, I won't ask who
they are.
Senator McCarthy. Let me finish the sentence so the record is
clear. There is a campaign on that those who work for anyone who
exposes Communists would be smeared.
Senator IMundt. The Chair understands that Mr. Welch withdraws
the question.
Mr. Welch. I certainly don't care who is up in that office or what
their names are. One of them we saw. Is it Miss or Mrs. Driscoll ?
Mr. Care. Mrs. Driscoll.
Mr. Welch. And her first name I think is
Mr. Carr. Mary.
Mr. Welch. You call her Mary ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Of course she calls you Frank ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Now, I will want to ask you some questions about the
memoranda that have been introduced in evidence here. It is exhibit
No. 31, and is the folder of memoranda which Mrs. Driscoll brought
to this room when she testified. Do you remember that, sir?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Do you have a set of the printed copies of it, because
I think the originals are not overly important for the purpose that
I have in mind because I will want to ask you about the content of
some of these memoranda.
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir. One second.
I am sure I do. One second, sir.
Mr. Welch. Do you have one ?
The one which I could have handed to you was marked up some
and I thought it might be confusing to you. For purpose of con-
venience, in" the printed record of these they are numbered. Do you
observe that, Mr. C:irr?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
2776 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
JSIr. Welch. I think perhaps one of the printed ones might well be
marked in evidence at some point, Mr. Chairman, so that they would
be easily referred to by anyone interested in this problem from here
on.
I will see that one is offered in evidence.
If you will look at the printed one in front of you, you will see,
I think that No. 1, which is October 2, is written by you; is that
right?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. The next one written by you is No. 4, dated December
9, from you to the Senator ; is that right ?
Mr. Carr. No. 5.
Mr. Welch. That is No. 5. That is right. Then No. 6 is not by
you, but is to you and Mr. Cohn from the Senator; is that correct?
Mr. Carr. Right.
Mr. Welch. No. 7 is dictated by you.
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
]Mr. Welch. No. 8 is dictated by you.
Mr. Carr. Right.
Mr. Welch. No. 10 is dictated by you. That is right, isn't it?
Mr. Carr. No. 10 is my memorandum ; yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. And dictated by you ?
Mr. Carr. No. 10, 1 don't know whether this came up yesterday or
not.
Mr. Welch. It is your memorandum, isn't it?
Mr. Carr. It is my memorandum, yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. And it is your product ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
]Mr. Welch. No. 11 is dictated by you?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Looking at those, as I turn them over, first I want to ask
you what happens to them generally. Let's take the first one. We
understand, of course, that all these that we have talked about were
dictated to Mrs. Driscoll, weren't they?
]Mr. Carr. Yes, sir ; I think so.
Mr. Welch. We learned that from her testimony.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch, may the Chair inquire did you ask
that this be entered as an exhibit ? I didn't understand.
Mr. Welch. I suggested it.
Senator Mundt. It might make the record read better. We will
consider the whole printed copy as an exhibit, with the understand-
ing that this is a printed reproduction that the Army had prepared
from what we have all agreed now is the proper text of the memoranda.
:Mr. Welch. Yes.
Senator ISIundt. It will be entered and so numbered. (The mem-
oranda referred to were marked as "Exhibit No. 38" and may be found
in the files of the subcommittee.)
Mr. Welch. I think I ought to say for the record, ]Mr. Chairman,
that as to No. 5, which is dated December 9, 1953, on the original which
is in evidence already, the word "Confidential" appears, and on the
printed one it does not appear. That I think is the only significant dif-
ference, if that is significant.
I was asking you about these memoranda, and taking No. 1 as a
sample, after that was dictated by you, I gather — I may be wrong,
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2777
but I gather from Mrs. Driscoirs testimony that she simply tran-
scribed it and put it in the files. Is that your understanding, sir?
Mr. Carr. That is my understanding of her testimony ; yes, sir.
]Mr. Welch. And Similarly, with No. 5, which is from you to the
Senator, you dictated that and did not see it after dictation, is that
right?
Mr. Carr. That is correct.
Mr. Welch. You assume, however — do you assume it was presented
to the Senator and then reached the tiles ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Yes. Then as to No. 7, once again that was dictated
by you and you did not see it thereafter — I mean for some period of
time ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. And similarly as to No. 8, from you to Mr. Cohn, you
dictated that to Mrs. Driscoll and once again did not see it after
dictation until some considerably later time?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir ; that is correct.
Mr. Welch. And the same would go for No. 10, is that right?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Then No. 11 is of less importance, but once again that
would be true?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. So in every instance you dictated these memoranda to
Mrs. Driscoll and then they simply went out of your control or your
sight until you saw them at some later date?
Mr. Carr. Yes, I think that is correct.
Mr. Welch. Now, I wish to call your attention — I think my 10 min-
utes is on the point of expiring — am I right ?
I will stop and start again when it comes to me, if it does.
Senator Mundt. Very well. Any questions from the head table?
Any questions Mr. Cohn or Senator McCarthy ?
Mr. Welch, you have another 10 minutes.
Mr. Welch. Mr. Carr, let me run down this list of memoranda
for subject matter or one subject in particular. Will you look first
at No. 1, which is your first memorandum that you dictated.
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. If you will look at the middle paragraph you will see
that Dave Schine takes up in printed lines about half that memoran-
dum, does he not?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. If you will look at your next one, which is December 9,
Schine is mentioned in the first paragraph, is he not ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. And in the second paragraph ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. YV^ELCH. And in the third paragraph?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. And in the fourth paragraph ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. In other words, he is mentioned in every paragi'aph,
is that right?
Mr. Carr. That is correct, sir.
46620°— 54— pt. 67 4
2778 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Mr. Welch. Now, will you go ahead to No. 7, which is your mem-
orandum to the Senator. Dave Schine is mentioned in the first para-
graph, is that right?
]\Ir. Carr. That is right, sir.
Mr, Welch. And in the third?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. And in the fourth?
Mr. Carr. Right, sir.
Mr. Welch. And in the fifth?
Mr. Carr. Right, sir.
Mr. Welch. Now, take your next one, No. 8, which is the nesit one
that you dictated, which is January 9, to Roy Cohn, Schine is men-
tioned in the single paragraph in that memorandum, is he not?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Now take No. 10, which is you to Senator McCarthy ,^
and Schine is mentioned in the only paragraph in that memorandum?"
Mr. Carr. No. 10?
Mr. Welch. No. 10.
Mr. Carr. Y^es.
Mr. Welch. That is right, isn't it?
Mr. Carr. Right.
Mr. Welch. And in No. 11, Mr. Schine is mentioned?
Mr. Carr. Right.
Mr. Welch. And in the only paragraph in the memorandum ?
Mr. Carr. Right.
Mr. Welch. What was there about Mr. Schine that was of such-
interest to you that he turns up by name in every memorandum that
you ever dictated?
Mr. Carr. I wouldn't say every memorandum I ever dictated. He
turns up by name in these memoranda which you have before you.
Mr. Welch. Are you suggesting to us, sir strike that out.
Have you told us what fascination Mr. Schine had for you so that
he turnecl up in every memorandum that you dictated that was saved
in this case?
Mr. Carr. No. All I have told you so far is that Mr. Schine's name
appears in the memoranda I dictated which you have in front of
you ; that is right.
Mr. Welch. Every time you dictated a memorandum between
October 2, 1953, and March 11, 1954, Schine turns up in it some
way, doesn't he?
Mr. Carr. Every time I dictated a memorandum between those dates
in which Schine was mentioned
Mr, Wei.ch. I understand that, the ones we have in evidence here.-
Mr. Carr. Right.
]\Ir. Welch. You are not suggesting that there are still others that
miirht mention Schine?
Mr. Carr, No, sir,
Mr, Welch, Now, going back to these memoranda just generally,,
can you tell us who it was that decided to keep the file that I have
before me about which Mrs. DriscoU testified in the first instance?
Mr. Carr. No, sir. 1 can't,
Mr, Welch, It just sort of grew like Topsy, is that right?
Mr. Carr. Perhaps; I don't know, sir.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2779
Mr. Welch. Hoav much had Topsy grown before you came to know
she was in existence?
Mr. Cakr. Ju^t about the size you have there, sir.
Mr. Wfxcii. That is to say, Topsy had reached full maturity by
the time you knew she existed, is that right?
Mr. Cahr. That is correct; yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. And you were writing these memoranda to the Sen-
ator or to Cohn, and sending them olif', and by what turned out to be
a pure accident, as far as you were concerned, they all turned up in
the same folder where you found them sometime in Marcli of this
year, is that right?
Mr. Carr. Well, not exactly, sir.
Mr. Welch. Well, that is where you found them.
Mr. Carr. Well, no, I didn't find them there; no, sir.
Mr. Welch. Well, maybe Mrs. Driscoll found them.
Mr. Carr. Mrs. Driscoll ; yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. 1 am not suggesting
Mr. Carr. 1 am with you entirely, sir, it is just
Mr. \/elch. It was just an accident that that neat little file, con-
sisting of 1 1 memoranda had been preserved by her as a unit, is that so ?
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
Mr. Welch. Well, it was not a new plan.
Senator Mdndt. Have you a point of order?
Senator McCarthy. Yes, I think you would call it that. I have
been abstaining from asking any questions of Mr. Carr here, hoping
we could get through with this filibuster.
Mr. Welch. Mr. Chairman, a 9-minute filibuster is not overly long.
Senator McCarthy. May I finish? I have been ho])ing we could
get back to the work of the committee. Now Mr. Welch is not dumb.
No one can accuse him of that, he is a very clever young man.
Mr. Welch. Go years of age.
Senator McCarthy. Well, I still think he is a young man. He is a
very clever young man. He knows that all he has there is the material
which has to do with this case. He knows this is not my complete file
from my office. He knows that.
I just think, Mr. Welch, you should try and keep to the issues of
this case, if you would, in view of the fact that we are desisting, both
the Democrats and Republicans here, are desisting from asking any
questions. I am going to start asking questions, too, if you are going
to go way otf the road and start going far afield.
Senator Mundt. The Chair believes that the memoranda have been
discussed in this committee sufficiently so that they certainly are
pertinent to the issues or pertinent to the inquiry, at least, and so he
cannot uphold the point of order.
Mr. Welch, you mav continue.
Mr. Welch. Now, t observe, Mr. Carr, that No. 2 in this memoran-
dum, which is not your dictation, is directed to the file. Do you
observe that ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. But No. 1, your first memorandum, is from you to
Senator McCarthy. No. 5 is from you to Senator McCarthy. No. 7 is
from you to Senator McCarthy. No. 8 is from you to Cohn, and No. 10
2780 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
is from yon to the Senator. And it is not until yon reach No. 11 that
you address one to the file, is that rijijht, sir?
Mr. Carr. That is rifrht.
Mr. Welch. By the way, goin;2: back a little, when you dictated
these memoranda would you try — I don't think you need even to
throw your mind back. What would you say to Mrs. Driscoll, "Take
a memorandum to the Senator," is that what you would say, looking
at the first one?
Mr. Carr. Probably something like that.
Mr. Welcfi. Or would you say, "Take a memorandum from me to
the Senator*'?
Mr. Carr. Probably something like that; yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Well, it must be something like that. State for the
record, if you would, as to how you ]irobably did say it. All you have
to do is just imagine you have her here, and you want to dictate a
memorandum to the Senator. How would you begin ?
Mr. Carr. Well, I am sure that I would probably say to her, "Take
a memorandum for the Senator. This is for the Senator." And that
is that.
Mr. Welch. And then you would start in and dictate it?
Mr. (^ARR. That is right.
Mr. Welch. Now, let's look at these memoranda and let me direct
a few questions to you as to each of them, if I may. I am going to ask
you first about the one of December 9, 1953. That begins by saying,
"I couldn't get you on the telephone." Can you recall, sir, where the
Senator was when you were trying to reach him on the phone?
Mr. Carr. No, sir; I can't.
Mr. Welch. In any event, you felt that you had a message for him
that you wished to get to him reasonably promptly, is that right?
Mr. Carr. I think that is right.
Mr. Welcil I call your attention to the second — strike that out.
And incidentally, there is a memoi-andum from Mr. Cohn to the Sena-
tor on this same day, is that correct, being No. -i?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Did you know Roy Cohn was writing that memo-
randum?
Mr. Carr. No, sir ; I don't think I did.
Mr. Welch. Did he, so far as you know, know that you were writing
your memorandum?
:Mr. Carr. No, he didn't.
Mr. W^elch. They were separate memoranda, then, just individually
inspired, is that right?
Mr. Carr. I assume that is right ; yes, sir.
Mr. Wei-ch. Now, I think you told us the other day, by the way,
that there were two reasons that might cause you to write a memo-
randum, is that correct ?
JNlr. (\\RR. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. One being record?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. AVelch. And one being to convey a message ?
Mr. Carr. I think that is probably right ; yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Now look again at this memorandum of December 9.
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2781
Mr. Welch, By the way, is that the day on which there was a hear-
ing in this room?
Mr. Carr. I think that is right, sir.
Mr. Welch. And this, I guess we well remember, is the third floor,
is that right?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. And your office is on the first floor, is that right ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr, Welch. And you dictated this memorandum in the Senator's
office ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. That is on the fourth floor.
IVIr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. I call your attention to these words: "Again today
John Adams came down here after the hearing."
Mr. Carr. Right.
Mr. Welch. Where does "came down here" mean ?
Mr. Carr. "Came down here" means down to outside of my office.
Mr. Welch. Room 101 ?
Mr. Carr. Right.
]\Ir. Welch. It also means came down here to the point where you
were dictating this memorandum, doesn't it?
Mr. Carr. No ; it doesn't, sir.
Mr. Welch. "Again John Adams came down here." What else can
that mean, except room 101 ?
Mr. Carr. It does mean room 101.
Mr. Welch. It does. Where are you dictating a memorandum in
•which you used the word "here" ?
Mr. Carr. I am dictating the memorandum in Senator McCarthy's
office.
Mr. Welch. Then you should say, "John Adams came down to 101"
instead of saying "came down here," should you not ?
Mr. Carr. It might have been better.
Mr. Welch. Sir?
Mr. Carr. It might have been better.
Mr. Welch. It would have been a lot more accurate, wouldn't it?
Mr. Carr. I don't think it would have been more accurate, but
Mr. Welch. If you were actually dictating this memorandum on the
fourth floor, is it a happy phrase to say, "John Adams came down
here after the hearing" ?
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
Senator Mundt. The time has expired. You may answer the ques-
tion.
Mr. Carr, No, sir.
Senator Mundt. Any questions by Senators at the head table?
Any questions from Mr. Cohn or Senator McCarthy?
Mr. CoHN. No questions.
Senator Mundt. If not, Mr. Welch, you have 10 minutes.
Senator McCarthy. Just 1 minute.
Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy?
Senator McCarthy. Go ahead.
Senator Mundt. O. K., Mr. Welch, You have 10 minutes.
2782 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Mr. Welch. Your first paragraph of that memorandum has these
words in it :
I want to tel! you that I am getting fed up with the way the Army Is trying
to use Sehine as a hostage to pressure us to stop our hearings on the Army.
You observe those words that "I am getting fed up," Mr. Carr?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. I take it that that means that this pressure to use
Scliine as a hostage had been going on for some time, had it not?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir, it probably does.
Mr. Welch. You wouldn't use the phrase "I am getting fed up"
with something unless it is something that had been going on so long
jou were getting sick of it, is that right?
Mr. Carr. That is probably correct, sir.
Mr. Welch. So you had been undergoing this rather nauseating
situation for, shall we say, days?
Mr. Carr. No.
Mr. Welch. W^eeks?
Mr. Carr. No.
Mr. Welch. Months?
Mr. Carr. No. I don't know whether I would say days, weeks, or
months.
Mr. Welch. Which would you choose? Hours?
Mr. Carr. No.
Mr. AVelch. Days?
Mr. Carr. No.
Mr. Welch. Weeks?
Mr. Carr. No.
Mr. Welch. You had better choose something. How long does it
take you to get fed up on something of this sort?
Mr. Carr. It took me about, I would say, an hour or an hour and a
half to realize how fed up I was on this. Mr. Adams first told me this
:(fter the hearings outside of room 101. At that time I don't recall
■challenging Mr. Adams or saying anything to him that would even
indicate that I later would write this memorandum, but as I kept
thinking about it and thinking about it, when I was in the office I
began to get fed up. I think I got fed up in a matter of about an
hour, maybe 2 hours.
Mr. Welch. Then perhaps I gave you too large words every time.
Maybe it was a matter of minutes, is that right?
Mr. Carr. It could have been.
Mr. Welch. It could have been minutes.
I told him the only contact we were authorized to have with him about
Sehine was on Investigations Committee business.
Do you see that phrase?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Who authorized this contact?
Mr. Carr. When I said I saw the phrase — I don't see it yet.
Mr. Welch. It is at the end of the second paragraph :
I told him the only contact we were authorized to have with him about Sehine
was on Investigations Committee business.
My question is, who authorized that contact?
Mr. Carr. I think Senator McCarthy and Secretary Stevens.
Mr. Welch. Certainly the Senator had?
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2783
Mr. Carr. And the Secretary had, yes, sir.
Mr. AVelch. Now look at this phrase — you have already been asked
flboiit it — in the next paragraph :
I am convinced that they will keep right on trying to blackmail us as long as
Schine is in the Army.
Were you so convinced ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir, I was.
Mr. Welch. Did you know what Mr. Schine's tour of duty was
going to be?
Mr. Carr. At that time?
Mr. Welch. Yes.
Mr. Carr. No.
Mr. Welch. Didn't you know it was going to be 2 years?
Mr. Carr. Oh, yes, the tour of duty, yes.
Mr. Welch. So you were then convinced that you were in for 2
years of blackmail, is that right?
Mr. Carr. That is what I said here, yes.
Mr. Welch. That is what you say, is that right?
INIr. Carr. I don't know that I thought of it in terms of 2 years, but
I said as long as he is in the Army.
Mr. Welch. You said as long as he is in the Army ?
Mr. Carr. That is right, and he is in the Army for 2 years, yes.
Mr. Welch. You were in for it, then, for 2 years of blackmail ?
Mr, Carr. That is the way I felt that afternoon, yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Just what was the blackmail ? W^hat were they threat-
ening you with ? Just to keep Schine in the Army ?
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
Mr. Welch. Was it to put him on KP ?
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
Mr. Welch. Or to deprive him of a leave?
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
Mr. Welch. Or not make him a corporal?
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
Mr. Welch. What were they threatening to do to him ?
Mr. Carr. The way I understood it, and the thing that got me a little
bit angered that afternoon, was the fact that they tied this thing in
with stopping the hearings
Mr. Welch. I don't care what they tied it in with. What were they
going to do to Schine ?
IMr. (^ARR. What were they going to do to Schine?
Mr. Welch. Yes.
Mr. Carr. The thing I was concerned about here, sir, was that they
were ti'ving to use Schine to stop the hearings.
Mr. Welch. I understand, but what were they threatening to do
to him besides letting him wear the uniform of the United States
Army?
Mr. Carr. Well. I don't know that they were threatening to take
him out and shoot him or anything like that, sir.
Mr. Welch. I don't think so. The worst we have heard is KP on
Sunday, isn't it?
Mr. Carr. Yes.
Mr. WV-lch. That is the worst we have heard?
Mr. Carr. Right.
2784 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Mr, Welch. Mr, Carr, did you think that you could turn aside a
senatorial investigation by this committee with a little chitchat about
KI' on Sunday ?
Mr. Carr. No
Mr. Wki.ch. That was just childish to talk that way, wasn't it?
Mr, Carr. I didn't talk that way.
Mr, Welch. I mean if Adams talked that way, it was just childish?
Mr. Carr. Well, and I also thought that he had no business tying
it up with trying to stop the hearings.
Mr. Welch. I am assuming he tied it up. To you, a grown man,
to suggest that KP for Schine on Sunday would in some way stop the
hearings must have sounded absurd. Is that right?
Mr. Carr. Well, I don't want to say that anything that Mr. Adams
did was childish.
Mr. Welch. It certainly
Mr. Carr. I thought it was a little foolish; yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Right. Then in that same paragraph you say :
and they keep trying to dangle proposed small favors to liim in front of us.
What proposed small favors ?
Mr. Carr. Well, for instance the luncheon on the 24th and then
again on the train on the 25th of November Mr. Adams made state-
ments indicating that they would do little things to take care of Mr.
Schine.
Mr. Welch. Do little things to take care of Mr. Schine. I ask you
what little things.
Mr. Carr. I don't know.
Mr. Welch. You just don't know.
Then when you say they keep trying to dangle proposed small favors
to him, you don't know what you are talking about, is that right?
Mr. Carr. Yes, I know what I am talking about.
Mr. Welch. Well, what proposed small favors were they going to
do this lad?
Mr. Carr. I don't know that they were favors, myself, but Mr.
Adams seemed to think they were. For instance, on the 24th of No-
vember he w^as going, if we would give him some good word concern-
ing Lawton, he was going to use what he considered his influence to
get Mr. Schine off so that he could work with us on the weekend fol-
lowing what I considered a general order by the Secretary of the
Army that he would be off anyhow.
Mr. Welch. That is what Mr. St. Clair this mornin<^ was weighing
with you, on one side of the scale busting a general like General Lawton
against a weekend pass for private. Is that right?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Mr. Adams was silly enough, so I understand you, to
suggest that some way those things could counter-balance each other?
Mr. Carr. Well, I am not going to say Mr. Adams was silly.
Mr. Welch. That couldn't possibly have blackmailed a man like
you, could it, Mr. Carr?
Mr. Carr. It didn't. Let's put it that way,
Mr, Welch. And incidentally it was no favor to Schine to let him
off on Thanksgiving, was it?
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2785
Mr. Welch. None whatever. Everybody got off on Thanksgiving.
Mr. Carr. I think they did.
Mr. Wklch. Now let's look at the next memorandum, which is to
you and Cohn from Senator McCarthy. Did that memorandum ever
reach you, sir?
Mr. (\\RR. Yes, I think I saw a copy of it.
Mr. W?:i.cH. A copy of it?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. AVelch. Where is the copy you saw?
Mr. Carr. I don't know. I think I might have destroyed it. I am
not sure.
Mr. Welch. Might have destroyed it?
Mr. Carr. Might have.
Mr. Welch. When did you destroy it?
Mr. Carr. I say I don't know.
Mr. Welch. You don't know?
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
Mr. Welch. Did you act on it ?
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
]\Ir. Welch. Never acted on it?
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
Mr. Welch. Now, were there two copies of it, actually ?
Mr. Carr. I don't know. I say I think I might have had a copy
of it.
Mr. Welch. I have the original of it here, sir. Would you like to
look at it ?
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
Mr. Welch. It has no indication that it was seen by Cohn, is that
right?
Mr. Carr. On the original?
Mr. Welch. Yes.
Mr. Carr. I don't think it has any indication of being seen by me
either, does it?
Mr. Welch. No, sir.
Mr. Carr. Right.
Mr. Welch. I have it here. It isn't marked "file" by you, is it ?
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
Mr. Welch. It isn't marked "file" by Cohn?
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
Mr. Welch. Did you ever have any conversation with Cohn in re-
spect to the memorandum?
Mr. Carr. I don't think I ever did. I may have.
Mr. Welch. Do you know whether he got a copy of it or not?
Mr. Carr. No — no, I don't know.
Mr. Welch. Can you swear that you got a copy ?
Mr. Carr. No. sir.
Mr. Welch. For all you know now, although that memorandum is
addressed to Cohn and Carr, it may have gone directly from Mrs.
Driscoll's typewriter into this file, may it not?
Mr. Carr. It could have, but I don't think so.
Mr. Welch. But you don't know where yours is?
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
2786 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Mr. Welch. And you never took any action as a consequence of
receiving; it ?
Mr. Carr. No, sir. . ^ ,^^ , .,
Senator Mundt. Your 10 minutes has expired. We are now at the
half-way point in the afternoon. We will stand for a 5 minute recess.
( T5 VI p^ rGCGSS. )
Senator Mundt. The committee will please come to order.
The Chair wants to remind the audience, if there are new members
here who were not here before the recess, of our committee rule tor-
biddinir audible manifestations of approval or disapproval, and that
includes applause. We a^rain ask the uniformed members of the
police force and the plainclothes people in the audience to enforce
that rule without further instruction from the Chair, by polite y but
firmly and immediately escorting from the room anybody violating
that standing committee rule.
Mr Welch had lust concluded a lO-mmute go-round with questions
of Mr Carr, who is on the stand, and the Chair will inquire farst
of all whether Counsel Prewitt or any members of the committee
have questions to ask at this time. ^ \ at /^ ^u
There being none, we go next to Mr. Cohn or Senator McCarthy.
Senator McCarthy, you have 10 minutes.
Senator McCarthy. I will only use about a mmute ot that, Mr.
Mr^'crrr, Mr. Welch, who has shown that he is a very brilliant
lawyer, I think, a very clever lawyer, here, has talked about the tact
that it was rather silly for John Adams to talk to .you about the
charges that might be made public against Mr Cohn. I think we
can all agree, this is one of the things that Mr. Welch and I can ag ee
upon, I am sure, that regardless of how silly Mr. Welch thinks the
activities of Mr. Adoms were, that they have succeeded m calling
off the investigation of communism. Communist inhltration, tor a
period now of 31/2 or 4 months, I don't know how long. Isn t that
If?
^^ Mr.' Carr. Yes, sir. There have been no hearings for about that
^'fei^t'Jr McCarthy. So that while Mr Welch may refer to Mr
Adams' and Mr. Stevens' efforts as silly, I think we should make it
clear that Mr. Adams and Mr. Stevens now it appears were being
directed by Mr. Clifford or someone else, that they ;7;'^ very very
successful in their efforts. There is no question about that; is theie^
SenatorMcCARTHY. Mr. Welch asked you whether or not you
weren't getting a bit fed up with certain efforts on the part of Mi.
Adams ?r soine individuals. Could I ask you whether or not you
fre not thoroughly fed up with the fact that we h^[\.«f "^ "7 abc^^^
31/0 months investigating charges against you and Mi Cohn, wh.ch
have been proven to be completely false, to be a complete hoax, and
during all that time we have been kept off our work of investigating
graft, corruption, and communism in the Government i
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir. „ 4. litr-
Senator McCarthy. Just one final question. Is ^t correct, Mr
Carr, that as of now-I believe that clock shows about 3 : oo-3 .55
on this 15th day of June 1954, while our committee should be ex-
posincT those who would betray this Nation, instead of that we are
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2787
going through this filibustering procedure, which was started some
^^' T i'^'T ""^f' ?K-^x?P;"- ,"' ^^'°'" disclosing to the American
people the dangers to this Nation ?
Mr. Carr. I think tliat is true, sir.
Senator McCarthy Also, Mr. Carr, is it correct that we have a
very limited amount of money for investigators ? We have been very,
very careful with it, that as of today a vast amount of that money
IS being spent, a vast amount of the time of the Senators is beino- spent
not investigating communism, corruption, and graft, but rather con-
tinuing to investigate charges that have been proven, I think to the
satisfaction of all of the American people, to be completely false
weeks ago. ^ "^
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Senator McCarthy. No further questions, Mr. Chairman
S3nator Mundt. Mr Welch or Mr. St. Clair, you have 10 minutes.
Mr. Welch. Well, Mr. Carr, if the hearings got called off, it wasn't
because of the threats or the blackmail about Private Schine's work
was it « '
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
Mr. Welch. Directing your attention again to this memorandum
?u Ji"?^®'; ^; y''" ^""^ "' '^ "^ "^^^^^e '^ clear"-I am reading about
the middle of the second paragraph— "I made it clear that as far as I
was concerned, I don't personally care what treatment they gave
fcchine, and that as far as I was concerned he was in the Army"
Have you any doubt, Mr. Carr, that that was the supremely correct
attitude to take? "^
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
Mr. Welch. You know that that is exactly the correct attitude,
don t you? *
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir ; it is the right attitude.
Mr. Welch. And once Dave Schine went in the Army, the best
tiling tiiat could have happened to him or your committee or the
Army was that he should have been treated precisely like every other
private? i ^ j
Mr. Carr. I think that is probably the best thing: yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Right.
As you indicate in a later memorandum, it was indeed unfortunate
that his work was not completed so that he could have gone in as
simply as any ordinary poor boy, isn't that right ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. I would like to direct your attention for a moment to
ttie next memorandum, which is No. 6, although you did not write it
Ihat IS a memorandum to Cohn and to you from the Senator. It is
dated December 17, 1953, and has to do With General Lawton. Does
that bring it back to your mind, sir ?
IMr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch First I want to ask you if it is not a fact that you
were m New York on December 16, the day the Senator says he
dictated this memorandum?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. You were at the hearings there ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. And you were with Mr. Cohn?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
2788 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
. Mr. Welch. And with the Senator?
"Mr Oarr Yes sir.
Mr Welch. Also, I wish to ask you, is it a fact, Mr. Carr, that
as early as November 24 and 25, this question of Lawton and what was
goin^ to happen to him had come up when John Adams was m JNew
York?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir. , • , ., o
Mr. Welch. And that was the occasion on which the benator was
approached about it by Adams?
Mr. Carr. One of the occasions. , ^ , . , .i ^ ^•
Mr Welch. One of the occasions in which I think the testimony
indicates that he met a very bristling refusal to accept it on the part
of the Senator. . i , , i ^
Mr Carr. I don't remember the testimony about that.
Mr. Welch. I don't think the word "bristling" was used, but the
Senator refused
Mr. Carr. I think that is right; yes, sir.
Mr Welch. To keep qniet if something happened to Lawton. lou
remember that on the afternoon of the 25th of November, that Adams
telephoned the Secretary in the presence of the Senator and said that
the Senator was certainly going to make a stmk about it if Lawton
were relieved ?
Mr. Carr. I recall that testimony.
Mr. Welch. Sir ? _ i . «• .
Mr C'^RR. I think there was testimony to that ettect.
Mr. Welch. That is riglit. You were in New York at that time,
too?
Mr. Carr. The 25th? Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. And you knew all about that going on ^
Mr C \RR. No ; I don't think I was there at the time of the phone call.
^Ir. Welch. I don't say that you necessarily overheard the phone
call.
Mr. Carr. I knew about the Lawton thing ; yes.
Mr. Welch. You knew there was the ruckus about Lawton on No-
vember 24 and 25?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir. ^ , -, , ^ ao
Mr Welch. And that it was a full-fledged ruckus, to use my word i
INIr. Carr. Yes; I would say that there was a lot of talk about it at
that time.
Mr. Welch. Right, and it was a ruckus?
Mr. Carr. I will use your word; yes, sir. t -, ,.
Mr Welch If you would like some synonym of your own, i don t
mean"to shove it down your throat, but that would be pretty descrip-
tive, would it not? . ,, ^ t u ^-i
Mv Car Well, the onlv hesitation I have is that I would use the
word "ruckus" for something more, something a little bigger than
this affair. , ^ , , , .. t j. • ^^
Mr. Welch. I think I really would, too, but what I am trying to
get at
Mr. Carr. I am in general agreement. .^ n^.i i o-fi ?
Mr. Welch. There was a sharp point about it on the 24th and iath i
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir. , . , . , ^
Mr Welch. AVill you turn, sir, to No. 7, which is the memorandum
from you to Senator McCarthy dated December 21, 1953. This is a
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2789
memorandum to which I have ah'eady drawn your attention and which
has five paragraphs in it, each one of which is substantially — I think
it is completely devoted to Schine, is that correct, sir ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir. All the paragraphs pertain
Mr. Welch. Sir?
j\Ir. Carr. Yes, sir, all the paragraphs contain something about
Dave Schine.
]\Ir. Welch. That is right. They all have to do with Dave Schine.
Now I wish to call your attention to the last sentence of the second
paragraph :
I would have been happier had he cleared up all his work before he left.
I haven't read the whole thing, but that is certainly true, isn't it,
Mr. Carr?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Then you add —
but under the circumstances he could not.
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
]Mr. Welch. What were the circumstances that prevented his
finishing clearing up all his work before he left?
Mr. Carr. This, I believe, was a reference to the fact that there was
some sort of arrangement that he was going to clean up his work or
clean up some work during the 2- week period after he went into the
Army, something to that effect.
Mr. Welch. Are those the circumstances you were referring to ?
Mr. Carr. I think it is. I am not sure at this point.
Mr. Welch. You might also have been referring to the fact that
you knew from the 1st of July or about July 8 that he was going into
the Army ?
Mr. Carr. I don't think so.
Mr. Welch. It is a fact, as you know now from sitting in this room,
that he had most of July and August and September and October to
clean up his work ?
Mr. Carr. I know from sitting here — I know what the testimony is;
yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Certainly had he torn into it and cleaned it up, as you
say in simple English here, you would have been happier ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Your next sentence or your next paragraph —
As you know, I have on many occasions been pretty curt with Dave about prompt
submission of memoranda.
Did you read that sentence with me? Did you, sir?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. "I have on many occasions been pretty curt with Dave
about the prompt submission of memoranda."
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Does that mean to you, as it does to me, that there were
many occasions on which you had dressed him down because he wasn't
submitting memoranda ?
Mr. Carr. No, sir; I don't think it means
Mr. Welch. Well, interpret the word "curt" for me. What do you
mean ? Do you mean you talked to him toughly ?
2790 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Mr. Carr. I think it means that I was curt with him about it; yes,
sir. The only disagreement I have with you there, sir, is that you
say on many occasions.
Mr. Welch. First, I want to know what you did to him. Maybe
"dress him down" is too strong, but when you use that word "curt,"
that you have been pretty curt with him, what do you mean?
Mr. Carr. I think an example would be on an occasion Mr. Schine
might tell me something at one of these hearings that we were con-
ducting in New York oi^Mr. Cohn might tell me that Mr. Schine had
some information or something and I would make an expression which
I am sure would be called vituperative here to the effect that why
hadn't he given me a memorandum on it.
Mr. Welch. And your phrase you say would have been vitupera-
tive ?
Mr. Carr. I think it would have been called that.
Mr. Welch. There had been many such occasions, is that right ?
Mr. Carr. There had been several occasions; yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. And some of them in front of the Senator ?
Mr. Carr. Perhaps, but I couldn't say.
Mr. Welch. There must have been because you say, "As you know,
I have on many occasions been pretty curt."
Mr. Carr. He might know it without my doing it in front of him.
Mr. Welch. Sir?
Mr. Carr. He might know it without my doing it in front of him.
Mr. Welch. I understand he might. Do you mean you made a
special point to go to the Senator and kick about the fact that Dave
didn't submit memoranda ?
Mr. Care. No, sir.
Mr. Welch. Then did you dress him down or be curt with him in
the presence of the Senator?
Sir. Carr. I may have.
Mr. Welch. And on many occasions ?
My. Carr. Well, you see those are two things.
Mr. Welch. I don't say "many." You say "I have on many oc-
casions."
Mr. Carr. No. All I am trying to say, sir, is that I may have done
it in the presence of the Senator, I may have told the Senator about
it, or he may have learned about it some other way. At this time
I am not sure.
Mr. Welch. No. You say "as you know." You must have known.
Mr. Carr. That is what I say. I might have done it in his presence ;
right.
Mr. Welch. You did it in his presence ?
Mr. Carr. I might have, sir.
Mr. Welch. You must have, didn't you ?
Mr. Carr. Not necessarily. Pie might have known it. I might
have told him.
Senator Mundt, Time.
Any other questions from any of the Senators seated at the table?
Senator Symington. I would like one question.
Senator Mundt. Senator Symington.
Senator Symington. Mr. Carr, would you look at the testimony
on page 6685 ?
Senator McCarthy. Is that today's testimony ?
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2791
Senator Symington. No, Senator; it is yesterday afternoon's.
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Senator Symington. If I ask you anything that you think is unfair,
or that you think is wrong, will you tell me ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Senator Symington. Do you feel that I have asked you anything
that was wron^ or unfair ?
Mr. Carr. "\\ ell, sir, I didn't like your statement. I don't think you
asked me any questions. No, sir.
Senator Symington. About the files?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Senator Symington. Thank you.
I say to you :
You made it very clear that if, say, your secretary or somebody else's secre-
tary went down and the file clerk wasn't there, or was ill that day, didn't happen
to be there, she could go ahead and get the files.
Eight?
INIr. Carr. I am with you ; yes, sir.
Senator Symington. Your answer is :
She could do that ; yes.
And then I say :
So in effect the files are available to every member of the committee under
certain circumstances —
and you say —
That is correct.
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Senator Syiviington. And then I say :
Do you know what clearance each of your staff members have, that is, each
Investigator, each clerical, stenographer, file clerk, and so forth —
Eight?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Senator Symington. And you say :
Yes, sir.
Mr. Carr. Eight.
Senator Symington. And then I say :
What are those clearances? Let me put it to you this way: Have they all
got clearances from the Department of Defense, and, if so, on what basis?
And you say :
They have clearances, varying degrees of clearances. One of them has top-
secret clearance on a "need-to-know basis" which has never been retracted.
Generally they all have clearance up to and including secret.
Eight?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Senator Symington. And then I say :
Let's see. You say one staff member has top-secret clearance ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Senator Symington. And then you say :
I recall that one staff member was given top-secret clearance. I don't know
that it was ever rescinded.
2792 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Eight?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Senator Symington. And then I say :
All the others from the Department of Defense have secret clearance, clearance
through secret, is that right?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Senator Symington. And you say :
The other clearances are through secret ; yes.
And then I say — I am almost through with this —
and it really would not make any difference whether one had top secret and all
the rest had secret or one had secret and all the rest had top secret if they all
had access to the files ; isn't that right?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Senator Symington. And you say :
I would say that it wouldn't make a great deal of difference whether it was
secret or top secret ; no, sir.
Is that correct?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Senator Symington. Now — well, I haven't got this morning's testi-
mony, but as I understood the testimony that you gave this morning,
it was that all information with respect to clearances that you had as
executive director of the stail you received from Senator McCarthy ;
is that correct?
Mv. Carr. I think that is correct ; yes, sir.
. Senator Symington. I am sorry I haven't got it. Has anybody got
the morning testimony here ?
Jim, have you got it ?
Mr. Juliana. I will try to find it, Senator.
Senator McCarthy. I think I have a copy here.
Senator Symington. I think I can find it if you have a copy.
Senator McCarthy. Here is a copy. [Document handed.]
Senator Symington. Now if I may read, it is on page 6701 :
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Carr, I think yesterday you mentioned that we re-
ceived FBI reports occasionally. From the answer I gather that there might
have been the feeling that you had received the FBI reports. Any FBI reports
come directly to me; is that right.
I read that correctly 2
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Senator Symington. And you say, "Yes, sir." Correct?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Senator Symington. And then Senator McCarthy says:
And any clearance, secret, top secret, confidential, would come to you and you
would only learn about that by hearing about it from me; is that right?
And you say :
Yes, sir ; that is right.
Have I read that correctly ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Senator Symington. Now my last question : On the question of who
has clearance from the Army or the Department of Defense on your
staff, does that also come from Senator McCarthy in addition to FBI
clearance ?
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2793
Mr. Carr. No; I think that some of the letters from the Army
come directly to me. I think that. I would have to check that.
Senator Syiviington. I thought you would say "Yes."
IMr. Carr. I think I can say "Yes." I would have to check that.
That is my recollection.
Senator Symington. What is your recollection ?
Mr. Carr. My recollection is that at least some of the letters may
come to me from the Army Defense Department.
Senator Symington. Some of the letters may come to you?
Mr. Carr. Yes.
Senator Syiviington. Well, with respect to those staff members who
have clearance
Mr. Carr. Right.
Senator Sy]mington. From the Department of Defense
Mr. Carr. Right.
Senator Syiviington. Would you be good enough to send to me or
to put into the record — I suppose, Mr. Chairman, that would be the way
to do it — the ones that have clearance that you know about?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir. It is all right with me.
Senator Symington. Thank you. When do vou think vou can
do that?
Mr. Carr, When do you want it ?
Senator Syiviington. Could we have it by, say, tomorrow noon?
Mr. Carr. I think so. I will try to get it. 1 am sure I can.
Senator Symington. Thank you very much.
Senator Mundt. Any other questions from Senators ?
Mr. Cohn or Senator McCarthy?
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman ?
Senator Mundt. Senator McCarthy, you have 10 minutes.
Senator McCarthy. I think we will have a little difficulty supply-
ing the information that Senator Symington asks for. However, any
information that comes to me from the FBI comes as a personal, con-
fidential letter. Before I could make that part of the record, I
would have
Senator Mundt. I think the Senator asked only for that coming
from the Defense Department. Am I right ?
Senator Symington. Will the Senator yield ?
Senator McCarthy. I will be glad to.
Senator Symington. I recognize on the basis of the testimony you
gave yesterday, I was not talking about the FBI files. I may later
talk about them. I may ask you what your position is on them. But
what I was talking about to Mr. Carr, what I was trying to find
out was if the statement of yesterday that you made re the FBI file,
also included the Department of Defense and any other agencies.
Senator McCarthy. Could we do this, Senator Symington? I
think that information will be available. There is no difficulty at all.
However, I would like to check and make sure it isn't classified. We
can take that up with you and the chairman before we meet tomorrow
morning.
Senator Symington. I would be glad to handle it in any way that
gets the information whenever it is convenient.
Senator McCarthy. I am sure you could get it.
Senator Symington. Thank you.
Senator JNIundt. Is that all, Senator McCarthy ?
2794 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Senator McCarthy. Yes. I have just one very brief matter.
Mr. Carr, Mr. Welch has been referring to a memorandum. I
know that he wouldn't under any circumstances attempt to mislead
our jury, but from the questions that were asked, leaving parts of
the memorandum out, it is entirely possible that those listenmg
mio-ht wonder what this memorandum is about, so I am gomg to read
to you, and if I don't read this correctly, will you tell me ? That is the
memorandum of December 21, 1953. That is the one that Mr.
Welch was questioning you on.
Following my conversation with you on last Thursday in New York, I
thiuli you should know that the staff of the subcommittee has not called upon
Dave Schine's time or service except when necessary to the committee work.
Let me stop there, Mr. Carr, and ask you if this was after my re-
quest that you make sure that there was no interference with Mr.
Schine's training. Is that right?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Senator McCarthy. And then continuing :
As you know, he left the committee rather suddenly during the middle of this
Fort Monmouth investigation. He has done a great deal of work on that and
the Defense establishment's case involving G. E. c. ^ t
I agree that contact with him should be kept at a minimum. So far as I
have been able to ascertain there has been no instance where he has missed
training because of committee work. I would have been happier had he cleared
up all his work before he left, but under the circumstances he could not.
As you know, I have on many occasions been pretty curt with Dave about
the prompt submission of memoranda. However, in this current situation
in view of the change of plans I cannot criticize him.
I think you should also know that during the past month since we have
been closely associated with John Adams, I have on numerous occasions talked
to him on the subject of Dave Schine. In all instances that I can remember
the topic either came into the conversation as a natural result of some other
subject we were discussing or Adams in a facetious vein made some statement
concerning the "hostage." I have always taken the position that I personally
had no particular interest in Dave Schine's Army career.
However, I have upon almost all occasions he has been discussed taken the
position that although he deserved no special consideration, he certainly sliould
not be penalized because of his former connection with tJbe committee. On a
number of occasions I have stated that it was my opinion that Schine should get
an assignment for which he was qualified and in which he could actually be use-
ful to the Armv in an investigatory i>osition. I have never, however, suggested
that his assignment should be other than one which he is entitled to by all Army
standards of fair play.
I read that to you, Mr. Carr, just in case there is any misunder-
standing about this memorandum. Did I correctly read that? Is
that the entire memorandum ?
Mr. Capj?. Yes, sir.
Senator McCarthy. No further questions.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Welch, you have 10 minutes. _
Mr. Welch. Mr. Carr, had I given you the impression of any un-
fairness in my examination in respect to this memorandum?
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
Mr. Welch. Thank you.
Now looking at the second paragraph of this same memorandum ot
December 21, 1953, 1 notice the words :
I agree that contact with him should be kept at a minimum.
AVith whom were you so agreeing ?
Mr. Carr. With Senator McCartb.y.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2795
Mv. Welch. You and he had talked about that matter; is that
right?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
INIr. Welch. You and he had reached an agreement that the con-
tact with Schine should be kept at a minimum ?
Mr. Carr. Well, you say, "reached an agreement." I agreed with
him at this point in the memorandum, yes.
Mr. Welch. You agreed with each other ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Now go to the next to the last paragraph, if you will,
and let me read to you what the Senator just read :
I thiuk you should also know that during the past months since we have been
closely associated with John Adams, I have on numerous occasions talked to
him on the subject of Dave Schine.
There is no doubt about the accuracy of that statement that I have
just read, is there, Mr. Carr ?
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
Mr. Welch. You and Adams talked on numerous occasions about
Dave Schine?
Mr. Carr. Eight, sir.
Mr. Welch. Was one such occasion on the train ride from Newark
to W^ashington?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. I am reading again :
In all instances that I can remember, the topic either came into the conversa-
tion as the natural result of some other subject we were discussing or Adams in
a facetious vein made some statement concerning the "hostage."
Is it true that Adams would make statements concerning the "hos-
tage" to you in a facetious vein ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. They couldn't have scared you, then, could they?
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
Mr. Welch. They couldn't have blackmailed you?
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
Mr. Welch. They couldn't have amounted to dangling small favors
in front of you, could they ?
Mr. Carr. They could have.
Mr. Welch. Once again you say in the next sentence :
I have always taken the position that I personally had no particular interest
in Dave Schine's Army career.
That is the second time in this set of memoranda that you say that,
isn't it?
Mr. Carr. I think so.
Mr. Welch. Eight. You talked about it in an earlier one a while
ago. Was there someone on the committee whose position was some-
what different from yours?
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
Mr. Welch. You don't happen to say "Everyone on the committee
has always taken the position that we have no interest in Dave
Schine," do you?
Mr. Carr. No.
Mr. "Welch. And on both occasions when you mention it, you say
"I personally have no interest in Dave Schine" ?
Mr. Carr. That is correct.
2796 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Mr. Welch. Now will you look at the memorandum of January 9,
1954 Since it is short and since the Senator read one which I had
examined, I will read it to you. It is headed, "Confidential," for one
thing. It is dated January 9, 1954, and it is from you to Koy Cohn.
Is that right?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir. -^^ -r^- no
Mr. Welch. Once again, it was dictated, of course, to Mrs. Driscoll i
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch (reading) :
I called John Adams about the question of the insert for the annual report re
the change of the Army security program. Also told him you had been trying
to reach him about Dave not being free Sunday to help with the report. He was
up in Amherst, Mass., stated that he was snowbound and that he couidnt
do a thing about it from Massachusetts. I am sure that he doesn't want to
do anything but I told him you would call. I think he will duck you. It is
obvious that he doesn't want the part about Army laxity in the report, so dont
expect Dave to get off to help.
Was that a memorandum dictated to inform or to record something?
Mr. Carr. To record, sir.
Mr. Welch. Everything that is covered in it had been discussed by
you and Cohn on the telephone, had it not ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Indeed, you had talked to Mr. Cohn before you dic-
tated the memorandum and he suggested that you make it, is that
right?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. In the memorandum — strike that out.
Incidentally, under those circumstances it would have been sensible
to have directed the memorandum to the file, as you did No. 11, would
it not?
Mr. Carr. It might have been, yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Much more sensible, wouldn't it?
Mr. Carr. Perhaps.
Mr. Welch. Because there wasn't anything you were telling Cohn
that he didn't know ?
Mr. Carr. It might have been, sir.
Mr. Welch. You say in this memorandum :
I am sure he doesn't want to do anything but I told him you would call.
When you dictated that Cohn had already called, hadn't he?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. And the next sentence :
I think he will duck you.
Adams had already ducked him, hadn't he ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. And the next sentence :
It is obvious that he doesn't want the part about Army laxity in the report,
80 don't expect Dave to get off to help.
You had already told Cohn that Dave wasn't going to get off to
help?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. And you take the services of a stenographer to send
him a memorandum up in New York and say "So don't expect Dave
to get off to help."
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2797
Mr. Welch. Incidentally, what day of the week was January 9 on,
if you recall ?
Mr. Cark. I think it was Saturday.
Mr. Welch. Isn't that the Saturday where Mrs. Mims took a moni-
tored call which has been introduced here in evidence ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. That is part of the call, Mr. Carr, that you made to
Adams in Amherst, isn't it ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. What time of day did you dictate this memorandum
that I have just read, which is No. 8 ?
Mr. Carr. Some time that afternoon.
Mr. Welch. Mrs. Mims was in your office ?
Mr. Carr. I think she was.
Mr. Welch. And had just taken, I assume, or had recently taken
that monitored call ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Nevertheless, you found it necessary to climb three
flights of stairs to dictate this to Mrs. Driscoll, is that right?
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
Mr. Welch. Did you take the elevator ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir,
Mr. Welch. You took the elevator, is that right, sir ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. And had to go up to her room to dictate this memor-
randum when your own secretary was sitting right beside you, is
that right?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir. I am afraid, Mr. Welch, you will be shocked
when you learn that I believe it was on this same Saturday that prac-
tically the entire staff was working in connection with one of these
reports, so that not only Mrs. Mims was there but there were several
other secretaries.
Mr. Welch. And you were busy as the dickens, too ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. And didn't have much time to ride up and down eleva-
tors?
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
Mr. Welch. You certainly could have saved some time in dictating
this memorandum if you had just said, "Mrs. Mims, take a memoran-
dum for me to Roy" ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. And at the time you did it, you didn't know Mrs. Dris-
coll was running this file, did you?
Mr. Carr. I don't think so ; no, sir.
Mr. Welch. You just didn't know that at all?
Mr. Carr. I don't think so.
Mr. Welch. That is right.
Now may I move on to No. 10 of January 15.
Mr. Carr. Well
Mr. Welch. That is a very short one.
May I read it to you.
Mr. Carr. Certainly.
2798 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Mr. Welch. It is dated January 15, 1954. It is from you to Sena-
tor McCarthy, is that right?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir,
Mr. Welch. And it is short.
Maybe one of these days you could speak to John Adams in a friendly way.
I have tried. He is baiting Roy pretty much lately on the hostage situation.
They get pretty heated before Roy buys the lunch, but it is going to lead to
trouble.
That is all there is to the memorandum, isn't it?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. And that was dictated to Mrs. Dnscoll?
Mr. Carr. Well, as I recall.
Mr. Welch. Was it? You have already told me it was dictated
to her.
Mr. Carr. No, sir.
Mr. Welch. Do you want to change it?
Mr. Carr. No, sir, I am not changing it. I think the testimony will
bear me out. I don't think I said that I dictated it.
Mr. Welch. I think that it will say that, sir, but change it if you
would like, if I am wrong.
Mr. Carr. Well, if it doesn't say it, then I am not changing it.
Mr. Welch. Yes. . , . •
Mr. Carr. All right, sir. The actual fact is, as I recall, and this is
probably the only memorandum that I recall so much about-
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman, if there is a question as to
what the witness testified to, I think in fairness to the witness, Mr.
Welch should read the testimony to him.
Mr. Welch. We haven't got it.
Senator Mundt. I think the witness will straighten it out now.
Mr. Welch. Yes. Go ahead. I may be wrong in my recollection
that you said you dictated
Mr. Carr. Well, it isn't an important point.
Mr. Welch. It is or isn't?
Mr. Carr. It isn't important on that. I can tell you what happened
if you want me to.
Mr. Welch. Well, what I would like to know is whether or not you
dictated it to Mrs. Driscoll?
Mr. Carr. Well, it is just
Mr. Welch. Will you tell me yes or no?
Mr. Carr. I can tell you "no."
Mr. Welch. No. Now, to whom did you dictate it?
Mr. Cauk. Well, you see, there we are getting technical. I said,
"No," I didn't dictate it.
Mr. Welch. I am a little troubled at your suggesting that I am
Senator Mundt. Let the witness answer the question.
Mr. Welch. Well, the word "technical" surprises me.
Senator Mundt. The Chair is interested in knowing also whether
he dictated it, and to whom, and the answer to the question. Go
ahead.
Mr. Welch. It wasn't dictated to Mrs. Driscoll?
Mr. C\\RR. No, it wasn't dictated to Mrs. Driscoll.
Mr. Welch. Was it dictated to anyone?
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2799
Mr. Carr. No, sir. I could straighten this out very easily, sir. It
is just the word "dictated."
Mr. Welch. I am so clumsy, but I will probably get there.
Mr. Carr. All right.
Mr. Welch. It was dictated to no one; is that right?
Senator McCarthy. Can we let the witness answer ?
Mr. Welch. Yes, he can answer it.
Mr. Carr. All right, it was dictated to no one.
Mr. Welch. The answer is that you scribbled it out, is that right?
Mr. Carr. That is right.
Mr. Welch. And handed it to whom ?
Mr. Carr. To Mrs. Driscoll.
Mr. Welch. To Mrs. Driscoll to type?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Is that what we have been talking about?
Mr. Carr. That is what I have been trying to get around to, sir.
Mr. Welch. Now, I am suggesting to you that Mrs. Driscoll did not
type it. Do you see anything about the memorandum that indicates
that to you?
Mr. Carr. That Mrs. Driscoll didn't type it?
Mr. Welch. Did not ty]5e it.
Mr. Carr. No, I see nothing that says she did or she didn't.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman?
Senator Mundt. A point of order ?
Senator McCarthy. Yes. Mr. Welch has said, "I am suggesting
that Mrs. Driscoll did not type it."
Mrs. Driscoll was on the stand and swore that she did. If Mr. Welch
wants to make any suggestions that she did not type it, then Mr. Welch
should take the oath and — let me finish — I know you have your clique
back here, Mr. Welch, but they won't influence me.
Mr. Welch, I am getting awfully sick of these innuendoes. If you
have any information that Mrs. Driscoll is not telling the truth, then
you should be willing to do what I have done, what Mr. Carr is doing,
and Mr. Cohn has done, what my three Republican colleagues have
done, take the oath and give us the information. It is very important
information, if you have such information.
If not, Mr. Welch, let me say you should either apologize publicly
to Mrs. Driscoll or take the oath and tell us what information you
have and do it under oath the way the rest of us have done.
Mr. Welch. I will tell you in the next question. This memorandum
is from Francis P. Carr, is it not ? It appears right in front of you.
It is from Francis P. Carr, isn't it ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. She never called you "Francis" in her life, did she?
Mr. Carr, Sometimes she calls me "Mr. Carr."
Mr. Welch. Yes, but you told me at the beginning of your exam-
ination that she calls you Frank.
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. And she never calls you Francis.
Mr. Carr. She usually calls me Frank ; yes, sir. My official name,
however, is Francis P.
Mr. Welch. I understand that, sir. But you are known in the
office as Frank Carr, aren't you?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir ; that is right.
2800 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Mr. Welch. And every other memorandum that she typed is from
Frank Carr, to the addressee?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. Do you follow me, sir?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Senator McCarthy. Mr. Chairman?
Senator Mundt. Have you a point of order?
Senator McCarthy. Yes; I must raise points of personal privilege
of my staff as well as myself. There are memoranda m my office from
Francis Patrick Carr, from Francis P. Carr, from Frank Carr, from
Mr. Carr, and if Mr. Welch wants to try to accuse a young lady, be-
cause she says Francis instead of Frank, of lying on the stand, then
he sliould take that stand himself.
Mr. Welch, it just isn't honest for you to sit there and accuse this
young lady of not telling the truth, because she writes Francis instead
of Frank.
Senator Mundt. Proceed, Mr. Welch. xt ii
Mr. Welch. Now, I call your attention to memorandum No. 11.
Will you look at that, sir?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. That is the last one, and it is dated March 11, 1954.
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir. -mi.
Mr. Welch. And in that, you use these words, about the middle of
it, referring to a telephone call from Senator McCarthy to a Mr.
Seaton. You say :
Senator McCarthy advised Mr. Seaton that the writer was searching the files
for- memoranda dictated concerning Sehine.
You notice the word f-i-1-e-s, files?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. What files did you first search?
Mr. Carr. I didn't search any files, sir.
Mr. Welch. Well, you say in the memorandum that you heard
Senator McCarthy tell Seaton that you were searching files.
Mr. Carr. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Welch. And it is not true that you were searching hles^
Mr. Carr. The memorandum says that Senator McCarthy told Mr.
Seaton that the writer— that is me— was searching the files for memo-
randa. Right. ,
Mr. Welch. Now, my question is, Is that true that you were search-
inn; the files? , ^ , • ^.r,
Mr Carr. Senator McCarthy told him that I was searching the
files Senator McCarthy is correct in his statement. I am correct m
mine. Senator McCarthy told me to search the files. I pulled the
Army game; 1 asked somebody else to search them.
Mr. Welch. Yes, and what files did you have searched ?
Mr. Carr. Frankly, I don't know. I asked Mary Driscoll.
Mr. Welch. The committee files, did you not?
Mr. Carr. No.
Mr. Welch. The Senator's files?
Mr. Carr. No, I asked Mary Driscoll if she would check to see if
she had any of the memoranda that had been dictated throughout
the hearing.
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2801
1 ^-loTt^^^^' ^'^^ ^^^^ ^^^"'® ^'1^ ^^^^^ tl^is memorandum that is ex-
hibit 31?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Welch And its existence, I take it, was a glad surprise to you ?
Mr. Carr. No, sir ; it wasn't a surprise to me.
Mr. Welch. Well, wasn't it a glad thing to find it ?
Mr. Carr. No, sir; I rather expected that she would have them
around somewhere.
Mr. Welch. You didn't know she had kept it, though, did you ?
Mr. Carr. No, sir; but it didn't surprise me.
Mr. Welch. And when you came to talk to Seaton about some
memoranda, all of a sudden they all appear, bound together, as I
now have them m my hand. Is that right?
Mr. Carr. Well, I don't know. I don't know whether they all of
a sudden appeared that way or
Mr. Welch. Well, they were bound together when you saw them ?
Mr. Carr. When I saw them ; yes, sir.
Mr. Welch. They were just as I hold them here?
Mr. Carr. I think so, sir.
Mr. Welch. And had Mrs. Driscoll handed them to you before you
dictated this memorandum or afterward ?
Mr. Carr. I really don't know.
Mr. Welch. You don't know ?
Mr. Carr. No, sir. This is a record memorandum.
Mr. Welch. I think, Mr. Chairman, that is all.
Senator Mundt. Mr. St. Clair, have you concluded with the wit-
ness, too ?
Mr. St. Clair. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. Any other questions of the witness before we ask
him to step down and call the next witness?
Senator McCarthy. Just one question.
Mr. Carr, do you know of anything that was ever done by Mr. Cohn
or anyone else on the staff of an improper nature, to try and get any
^^^^T^^V^^°^^^^^^^*^°^ ^°^ ^^- Schine or anyone else with the military ?
Mr. Carr. No, sir ; I know of no improper act.
Senator McCarthy. Nothing further.
Senator Dworshak. One question, please.
Senator Mundt. Senator Dworshak has a question.
Senator Dworshak. Mr. Carr, frequent reference has been made to
Private Schine throughout this hearing. Can you tell us now whether
Frivate Schine has terminated his services with this subcommittee
or will continue to work as a consultant for it ?
Mr. Carr. No ; he is no longer with the subcommittee.
Senator Dworshak. He has terminated his services entirely ?
Mr. Carr. Yes. ^
Senator Davorshak. I presume that carries with it the prohibition
against using stationery of the committee as well as using the facilities
of the subcommittee ?
Mr. Carr. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. Any other questions?
Senator Jackson. Just one last question : When did Private Schine
complete his last Avork, so we have it for the record for the committee ?
Mr. Carr. I think it was the writing or the preparation of the
reports.
2802 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Senator Jackson. What date was that? ^
Mr. Carr. Well, the last report, I think, went to the printers around
the 19th of January or 20th, somewhere in that period, sir.
Senator Jackson. It was some time prior to that that he completed
all of his work for the committee ?
Mr. Carr. As far as I know, sir ; yes, sir.
Senator Jackson. That is all.
Senator MuNDT. All right, Mr. Carr, you may step down.
Mr. Cohn will be the next witness. You may take the stand, Mr.
Mr*. Cohn, you have previously been sworn, and are still testifying
under oath. You understand that fact ?
Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF EOY M. COHIT— Eesumed
Senator Mundt. Senator McClellan has some questions he would
like to ask.
Mr. CoiiN. Surely. ^ . . , . ^ ■
Senator McClellan. May I ask if counsel is going to interrogate
the witness in order to identify some documents ?
Mr.PREWiTT. Yes,sir. n .-. ^^ .o
Senator Mundt. Would you like to have him do that tirst i
Senator McClellan. Yes.
Senator Mundt. Counsel Prewitt will interrogate the witness tor
the purpose of identifying documents, because Senator McClellan is
going to ask him some questions about these documents. You may
proceed, Mr. Prewitt. , . -,
Mr. Prewitt. Mr. Cohn, I address myself to certain documents or
memoranda which have already been referred to, and I have a
folder ,^ ^ .^^ T J.^ ' ^
Senator McCarthy. I can't hear you, Mr. Prewitt. I think your
mike is not turned on. , , ,, ., •
Senator Mundt. Will the control man be sure that the mike is up a
little hicher. You have that "Jenkins separator" that you don't really
need, Mr. Prewitt. So get up a little closer.
Mr. Prewitt. Mr. Cohn, I address myself to certain memoranda
which have already been referred to, representing the work of Mr.
Schine after November 3. I believe you are familiar with these docu-
ments.
Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir. i . ci
Mr. Prewitt. I will ask you to identify the documents and to tile
them for the record. ,. -r^ -.. t£
Mr. Cohn. I believe I have already done that, Mr. Prewitt. It you
want me to do it again, I wnll be glad to.
Mr. Prewitt. I will ask you to.
Mr. Cohn. Surely.
(The memoranda referred to were handed to tlie witness, inese
documents were marked as "Exhibit No. 39" and may be found in the
files of the subcommittee.) _ _ , ■ n ,•<>
Senator Mundt. The Chair understands it is simply the identitica-
tion numbers and the titles of the memoranda filed, and the record will
not be burdened bv the text of all the memorandums; is that right,
Senator McClellan"?
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2803
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, I have no desire to burden
the record with printing the memoranda. I want whatever the file is
fully identified.
Senator Muxdt. It was the Chair's understanding, and he wanted
the reporters to understand the same thing.
Mr. CoHN. Do you want me to go through it paper by paper ?
Mr. Prew^tt. Just enough to identify them.
]Mr. CoHN. The first document — suppose I put No. 1 on it is a
draft of one of the Voice of America interim reports.
The second
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman, if you will pardon me just a
moment.
Senator Mundt. Senator McClellan.
Senator McClellan. To get the record straight, I have no desire
to have all these documents printed in the hearings.
Senator Mundt, That is my understanding.
Senator McClellan. But I did have in mind, and I trust it is the
understanding, that they will be filed as exhibits to the witness' tes-
timony.
Senator Mundt. Right.
Senator McClellan. And will become committee property for fur-
ther reference. That is all.
Senator Mundt. That is the understanding.
Mr. Prewitt. Mr. Cohn is now identifying them.
Mr. CoHN. The second, which is typed on a typewriter with green
ink, is a draft of the report on information centers.
The third is a draft of the report entitled "Baker West-Baker East."
It is actually a report on the engineering projects of the Voice of
America, which was prepared by the research director of the com-
mittee and which was rejected by Senator McCarthy and subsequently
redone in substantial part by Mr. Schine.
The fourth thing here is a part of one of the final drafts of the an-
nual report of the subcommittee, worked over by Mr. Schine at the
end of December and the beginning of January, work done at Dix,
and bearing notes by him. The yellow papers at the end of the folder
are an outline of reports on the information progi-am in my writing,
which was prepared by Mr. Schine and myself.
In addition to this, Mr. Prewitt, as I displayed to the staff of the
subcommittee, there are other matters prepared by Mr. Schine and
others on the basis of information from Mr. Schine, dealing with
confidential informants and information obtained from them. Tliere
is a witness list likewise prepared by him which has not been supplied.
Senator Mundt. Senator McClellan.
Mr. Prewitt. Senator, would you permit me to ask one or two
questions ?
Senator Mundt. Mr. Prewitt, you may proceed.
Mr. Prewitt. Mr. Cohn, was Private Schine a part-time employee
of the subcommittee ?
Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir. When he came with the subcommittee it was
on a part-time basis, although there were periods of time when he
gave more than full time.
Mr. Prewitt. What was his position before he came with the com-
mittee?
2804 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Mr. CoHN. He was president and general manager of a business
which he controlled.
Mr. Prewitt. Did he continue to devote his duties to that job?
Mr. CoiiN. To, I assume, a much lesser extent, Mr. Prewitt.
Mr. Prewitt. Did anyone else assume the duties which he had for-
merly done as president of this concern ?
Mr. CoHN. I think he remained as president and general manager,
but I think other people in his organization did assume various re-
sponsibilities which he could not fulfill because of the time he was
giving to the subcommittee.
Mr. Prewitt. At the time he was inducted in the Army, was he still
performing duties as president of this concern about which you have
spoken ?
Mr. CoHN. I suppose so, sir.
Senator MuNDT. Mr. Cohn, will you raise your voice a bit? We are
having some interference from Jupiter Pluvius out there, and I would
like to hear you.
Mr. Prew^itt. Your answer is in the affirmative?
Mr. Cohn. I really don't know, Mr. Prewitt. I assume he still
has the title. I am sure he doesn't give it much time.
Mr. Prewitt. Can you tell us approximately how much time he
devoted to his private business in the period July to November 3, of
1953?
Mr. CoHN. No, sir.
Mr. Prewitt. You have no idea?
Mr. CoHN. I don't have any accurate idea, sir.
Mr. Prewitt. That is all I have.
Senator Mundt. Now, Senator McClellan, you may proceed. You
have 10 minutes.
Senator McClellan. Mr. Cohn, I have the entire file before me
which you have just identified ; is that correct?
Mr. CoHN. Yes, Senator McClellan.
Senator McClellan. These are the documents which you have sub-
mitted to the committee as the work of Private Schine or Mr. Schine
from November 3 until he terminated his services with the committee ?
Mr. Cohn. No, sir, not exactly. The main thing was the printed
three interim reports and certain sections of the annual report.
Senator McClellan. He didn't write the report?
Mr. CoHN. No, sir, but he wrote parts of the report.
Senator McClellan. These are parts of that report ?
Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir. We did not keep the drafts, Senator Mc-
Clellan.
Senator McClellan. I understand. But this is the product of his
work ?
Mr. CoHN. That is a very small part of the product ; yes, sir.
Senator McClellan. This is yours?
Mr. CoHN. That is an outline which he and I made up together.
It is in my writing.
Senator McClellan. In your writing?
Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir.
Senator McClellan. So aside from that, the rest of this is what
Mr. Schine did?
Mr. CoHN. No, sir, it is not, Senator.
Senator McClellan. Who did this if Mr. Schine didn't?
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2805
Mr. CoHN. As I indicated a few minutes ago, Senator McClellan,
there is one draft in there of the Baker West— Baker East report
which was prepared by Mr. Karl Barslaag and was vetoed by Sen-
ator
Senator McClellan. You know what I am trying — I am trying to
get what Mr. Schine did. It this it or not ?
Mr. CoHN. As far as that file, you have too much there, sir.
Senator McClellan. I have too much ?
Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir.
Senator McClellan. Well, I will take out some. Now do I have it
about right?
Mr. CoHN. I am afraid you took out the wrong thing, sir.
Senator McClellan. All right, I will take out the right thing if
you will indicate.
Mr. Cohn. It starts off Baker West — Baker East at the top.
Senator McClellan. Baker West — Baker East. I can take that
out?
Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir.
Senator McClellan. Now this is the product of his work?
Mr. Cohn. Yes. He did those things that you have in your hand,
I believe.
Senator McClellan. That is the product of his work ?
Mr. Cohn. Yes ; that is a small part of it.
Senator McClellan. He didn't dictate these, did he ?
Mr. Cohn. Pardon me, sir ?
Senator McClellan. Did he dictate these?
Mr, Cohn. The one with the green typing, I understand he did
dictate.
Senator McClellan. The one with the green typing ?
Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir, I understand.
Senator McClellan. He dictated that?
Mr. Cohn. Yes, I think that probably was actually dictated by him.
Senator McClellan. And the rest of it he just contributed his
consultant ability or capacity to ; is that right ?
Mr. Cohn. No, sir, not actually. For instance, the annual report,
as I outlined when I testified the last time, certain sections of it were
substantially written by him before they were mimeographed.
Senator McClellan, Is this the product of all of the time that he
was on and that all this hullabaloo is about ? Is this the product of it ?
Mr. Cohn. A very small part of it.
Senator McClellan. Where is the rest of it ?
Mr. Cohn. The main part of it, sir, is the actual three interim re-
ports themselves.
Senator McClellan. Where is that report ?
Mr. Cohn. I supplied those to Mr, Welch, and I think I filed a set
with the subcommittee.
Senator Mundt. Do you have that material, Mr. Welch? It was
delivered to you one day in the hearing.
Mr. Welch. Those were the committee reports that were filed with
Congress. What I can't find is any draft of them that Schine pre-
pared.
Senator McClellan. That is what I am asking. I am trying to
find out — I have asked and have been trying to get, so we can see it
here, the product of his work.
Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir.
2806 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Senator McClellan. Did he dictate the report that was finally
filed?
Mr. CoHN. A subtantial part of it was written
Senator McClellan. To whom did he dictate it ?
Mr. CoHN. Senator, as I explained the last time I testified, a sub-
stantial part of it was written by him in this w^ay : It was not dictated
to a stenographer. He wrote out in longhand
Senator McClellan. Where are his notes?
Mr. Coiix. Pardon me, sir ?
Senator McClei.lan. Where are his notes ?
Mr. CoHN. We didn't keep his. We didn't keep mine.
Senator McClellan. I see you kept yours.
Mr. CoHN. No, sir, I didn't actually.
Senator McClellan. Whose are these [indicating] ?
Mr. CoHN. That is a part of an outline, and we likewise found
some of his notes on that January 2d draft. But basically, sir, we
did not keep any of the drafts of the reports.
Senator McClellan. Why did you keej) your notes and not keep
his? He is the consultant, telling you hiow to do it.
Mr. CoHN. It is a pure accident that we kept anything, sir.
Senator McClellan. Pure accident?
Mr. CoiiN. Yes, sir.
Senator McClellan. It may be. May I ask, have you got anything
else in the file that you can offer here as proof to show the justification
for all of these pleas to get him off to help the committee, is there
anything else you can offer?
Mr. CoHN. Sir, there were not that many pleas. An arrangement
was made and he wrote substantial
Senator McClellan. Whatever they were. It was already testified
to here, the times he was off. I don't remember the number.
Mr. CoHN. He wrote substantial parts of the reports, sir, and as I
say, we did not keep drafts of the reports that he wrote.
Senator McClellan. He wrote it in longhand, he didn't dictate it,
and he gave it to somebody else, and you don't have it to show it ?
Mr. CoHN. What happened is this, sir, he wrote good parts of it in
longhand over the weekend. I frequently would work over his long-
hand work. Sometimes I would type it on my typewriter at home.
Senator McClellan. Is that all of the proof you have to offer on it?
Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir. I would say the reports which you have there,
plus the file which I outlined.
Senator McClellan. That is what you are stating?
Mr. Corn. No, sir, I believe there was a witness list, and some
information from confidential informants which was displayed to
committee counsel but not offered here.
Senator McClellan. I only have one other question, Mr. Cohn, as
far as I am concerned, if that is all you want to say about this file.
Have you got anything else you want to add to it? I don't want to
cut you off'.
Mr. CoiiN. No, sir, unless there is something else you want to ask
me.
Senator McClellan. You have told us all you want to about it?
Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir.
Senator McClellan. Just one other question. I think it is in fair-
ness to you and to the rest of us. It was testified to here by, I believe,
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2807
Mr. Adams or Mr. Stevens, I doirt want to misquote either, but I am
sure one of them, something about your having a ca])acity to control
this committee. You haven't commented on that. Do you contend
that you have the capacity or the influence to control this committee?
Mr, CoHN. Sir, I haven't commented on it because I think the state-
ment itself is too ridiculous to deserve any comment.
Senator McClellan. You think that is ridiculous that he would
make such a statement ?
Mr. CoHN. I do, sir.
Senator McClellan. Then you acknowledge you do not have the
cajDacity to control this committee?
Mr. CoHN. I certainly do, sir.
Senator McClellan. That includes me. I wasn't on the committee
back there, but I didn't want any implication that some of us were
being controlled. And I thank you for clearing it up.
Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir. You weren't on the committee, and if you
were, I am sure I could have had no capacity whatsoever. And I
wouldn't have tried it.
Senator McClellan. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Any Senators on my right have any questions of
Mr. Cohn ? Any Senators to my left have any questions of Mr. Cohn ?
Mr. Cohn. Senator Mundt?
Senator Mundt. Well, if there are none at this time, we are about
to conclude with Mr. Cohn.
Senator Jackson. I don't know about others.
Senator Mundt, Very well. Senator McCarthy, have you any ques-
tions of Mr. Cohn ?
Senator McCarthy. No, I was going to comment on Senator Mc-
Clellan's last comment. I think anybody who has been watching the
Senators on television for the last thirty-odd days would agree that
they would be awfully hard to control.
Senator Mundt. The Chair would certainly not argue with that
point of view.
Senator McClellan. I thank my friend.
Senator McCarthy. I would like to ask Mr. Cohn, in view of the
fact that he has now finished his direct and cross-examination — all
the Senators, I believe and counsel, have indicated they have no
further questions — I wonder if, Mr. Cohn, you would have anything
you, yourself, would care to add to your testimony. If so, I think this
IS the time.
Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir.
I know the hour is late, sir, but there is one short statement I did
want to make, and I told that to Senator Mundt this morning, and
asked his permission to do it. I would like to do it now.
Senator Mundt. You can make it during Senator McCarthy's 10
minutes.
Mr. CoHN. Yes, sir ; I will make it, if I may, sir, in the form of a
personal privilege. I hope I will be under the 10 minutes, though.
Mr. Chairman, some things have been said yesterday afternoon, and
at_ other times during these hearings, about the staff of the subcom-
mittee and about conditions of its files. I don't know much about the
condition of its files. I have never gone through the files. But I know
a lot about the staff.
2808 SPECIAL INVESTIGATION
Most of the people on the staff are former FBI men, well trained.
No matter where they came from, I do know they have all — and they
are a very small group — done a job w^hich is this outstanding : They pro-
duced, I think, the most active year in the history of this suDcommittee.
There have been 95 days of executive hearings, there have been 331
witnesses examined in executive hearings, 75 days of public sessions,
216 witnesses examined in public session.
I have here, sir — and I might later ask permission to file it with
the subcommittee — a rather, what I think is a rather impressive list of
Communists who have been exposed and forced out of Government,
out of the Government Printing Office, out of the Army, out of schools,
out of colleges, and out of defense industries, due to the work of this
handful of men down on this staff.
The last w^ord I want to say about them is that they have worked
day and night and weekends, Saturdays, Sundays, Sunday nights,
without any overtime, without any inducement, for one reason : Be-
cause they believe in a cause. The cause is the protection of the Nation
against Communist infiltration which has brought about the down-
fall of so many other countries througliout the world.
The concluding part of what T want to say before I leave the stand
is about two people with whom I have been closely associated within
this cause during the last year. Those two people are Frank Carr
and Senator Joe McCarthy. As far as Frank Carr is concerned, his
record has been well stated here. He came to this committee. The
night before he came, he was the head, the supervisor, of over 200 of
the top FBI agents in this country. He produced with them the
evidence which put in jail the first-string and the second-string
leaders of the Communist conspiracy in this Nation.
He has been made to sit here, sir, for some 2 months now on the
basis of completely unfounded and unsubstantiated charges against
him.
And my final word, sir, and one which I must make before I leave
the stand, is about a man who, to me, is a great American, and that
is Senator Joe McCarthy.
I did not know Senator McCarthy before I came with this com-
mittee. I am of a different religion, I am of a different political party
from both him and from Mr. Carr. In the year that we have worked
together, there has never been any distinction because of religion,
political affiliation, or anything else. I have never known a man who
has less unkindness, less lack of charity, in his heart and soul than
Senator McCarthy, and I have never known a man who has been m.ore
loyal and devoted to his staff and to everybody associated with him in
this cause than Senator McCarthy.
I have seen him sit here for over 2 months now, virtually as a de-
fender. I have seen him waive his senatorial immunity, I have seen
him examined and cross-examined on the witness stand. I have seen
him work day and night on other things, all of that time, and I have
seen what this has meant to his wife, to those near and dear to him,
and to those near and dear to Mr. Carr. I think they have been
badly treated, in having to sit here when tlieir only crime has been that
of doing their level best to protect this Nation against a menace of
Communist infiltration.
I think thiit they have been badly treated in sitting here, but I
think that their reward comes in what 1 know is the gratitude of the
I
SPECIAL INVESTIGATION 2809
American people to two men who have given so much to keep this
Nation safe against Communist infiltration.
Thank you.
Senator McClellan. Mr. Chairman?
Senator Mundt. Senator McClellan.
Senator McClellan. I want to ask you one question. That is a
nice speech; that is all right. When you say somebody has been mis-
treated, you don't mean by this committee ?
Mr. CoHsr. No, sir.
Senator McClellan. This committee is not responsible for these
charges and countercharges, are they ?
Mr. CoHN. I am glad you asked that, Senator McClellan. I do not
in any wise mean by members of this committee or in their questions
or anything else. I mean sitting here, when 2 days before the whole
thing started the man who brought the charges said they are grossly
exaggerated and there is nothing to them. That is what I have par-
ticular reference to.
Senator Mundt. Now, Mr. Welch or Mr. St. Clair, have you any
questions ?
Mr. St. Clair. No.
Senator Mundt. Senator Jackson or Senator Symington?
Senator Jackson. No more ; not at this hour.
Senator Mundt. Senator Dworshak?
If nobody has any more questions, we will dismiss the witness and
start in tomorrow morning with Senator McCarthy on the stand,
starting at 10 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 5 p. m. the committee was recessed, to reconvene at
10 a. m. the following day, Wednesday, June 16, 1954.)
INDEX
Page
Adams, John G 2756-2771, 2781, 2782, 2784, 2786, 2788, 2794-2798, 2807
Alsop 2775
Amherst, Mass 279G, 2797
Army (United States) 2759,
2763, 2765, 27G8, 2768-2770, 2773, 2782, 2783, 27S7, 2789, 2793-2797,
2800, 2804, 2808.
Army commission 2773
Army Defense Department 2793
Army personnel 2765
Army security prottram 2796
"Balcer West, Baker East" 2803, 2805
Barslaag, Karl 2805
Cadillacs and Chevrolets 276G
Camp Gordon, Ga 2766
Capitol Police 2757
Carr, Francis P 2808
Testimony of 2758 -2>()2
Clifford, Mr 2786
Cohn, Roy M 2758,
2761-2763, 2765-2774, 2770, 2777, 2779, 2780, 2785-2787, 2790, 2796,
2798 2799.
Testimony of_L"___l 2S02-2809
Communist conspiracy 2808
Communist Party 2808, 2809
Communists 2808,2809
Coun.selor to the Army__- 2758-2771, 2781, 2782, 2784, 2786, 2788, 2794-2798, 28j)7
Department of the Army 2759,
2763, 2765, 2766, 2768-2770, 2773, 2782, 2783, 2787, 2789, 2793-2797,
2800, 2804, 2808.
Department of Defense 2791-2794
Driscoll, Mrs. Mary 2775-2780, 2785, 2796-2801
FBI (Federal Bureau of Investigation) 2792,2793,2808
FBI reports 2792
Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) 2792,2793,2808
Fort Dix 2767, 2803
Fort Monmouth 2794
General Electric 2794
Government Printing Office 2808
KP (kitchen police) 2783,2784
Lawtou, General 27.58-2760, 2784, 2787
Loyalty board 2761,2702
McCarthy, Senator Joe 2758,
2762, 2765, 2767-2769, 2772, 2775-2777, 2779-2781, 2785-2788, 2790,
2792-2794, 2798-2803, 2807-2809,
McClellan, Senator 2758
Methodist Building (Washington, D. C) 2765
Mims, Mrs 2772, 2774, 2797
Monitored telephone calls 2763, 2770
Newark, N. J 2795
New York City 2772, 2787, 2788, 2790, 2795, 2796
Pearson 277.5
Peress, Major 2765
Schine, G. David 27.58-2761,
2766-2768, 2770, 2778, 2782-2784, 2787, 2789, 2790, 2794-2796, 2S0O-
2805.
Schine's Army career 2794, 2795
Seaton, Mr 2800, 2S01
n INDEX
Page
Secondhand Chevrolets 27G(J
Secretary of the Army 2767, 2768, 2782-2784, 2788, 2807
Stevens, Robert T 2767, 2768, 2782-2784, 2788, 2807
Thanksiiiving 2784,2785
United States Army 2759,
2763, 27G5, 2766, 2768-2770, 2773, 2782, 2783, 2787, 2789, 2793-2797,
2800, 2804, 2808.
United States Capitol Police 2757
United States Department of Defense 2791-2794
Voice of America reports 2760,2803
Washington, D. C 2762,2774,2795
o
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