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Full text of "State Department information program information centers. Hearing before the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations of the Committee on Government Operations, United States Senate, 83d Congress, 1st session, pursuant to S. Res. 40, a resolution authorizing the Committee on Government Operations to employ temporary additional personnel and increasing the amount of expenditures .."

STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM- 
INFORMATION CENTERS 



HEARINGS 

BEFORE THE 

PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON 
INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON 

GOVERNMENT OPEEATIONS 
UNITED STATES SENATE 

EIGHTY-THIED COXGEESS 

FIRST SESSION 
PURSUANT TO 

S. Res. 40 



.^•w 



PART 7 



JULY 1, 2, AND 7, 1953 



Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Operations 




UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 



33616 WASHINGTON : 1953 



Eoston rubiic Li'^rary 
superintendent of Documents 

NOV 4 1953 



COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS 

JOSEPH R. MCCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman 

KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas 

MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Maine CLYDE R. HOEY, North Carolina 

HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, Minnesota 

EVERETT Mckinley DIRKSEN, Illinois HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington 

JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts 

CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri 

Francis D. Flanagan, Chief Counsel 
Walter L. Reynolds, Chief Clerk 



PeEMANENT StTBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS 

JOSEPH R. McCarthy, WiscoTisln, Chairman 

KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN. Arkansas 

EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington 
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri 

Roy M. Cohn, Chief Counsel 
J. B. Matthews, Staff Director 

u 



CONTENTS 



Fag* 

Index I 

Testimony of — 

Boyer, Richard O 422 

Burgum, Edwin Berry 433 

d'Usseau, Arnaud 464 

Kent, Rockwell 417 

Robeson, Mrs. Eslanda Cardozo Goode 473 

Wilkerson, Doxey A 441 

m 



STATE ^DEPAETMENT INFOEMATION PKOGRAM 
INFOEMATION CENTEES 



WEDNESDAY, JULY 1, 1953 

United States Senate, 
Senate Permanent Subcommittee on 

In^^estigations of the Committee 

ON Government Operations, 

Washington^ D. G. 

The subcommittee met (pursuant to S. Res. 40 agreed to January 
30, 1953) at 10 : 30 a. m., in room 318, Senate Office Building, Senator 
Joseph R. McCarthy (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding. 

Present : Senators Joseph R. McCarthy and Stuart Symington. 

Present also: Dr. J. B. Matthews, executive director. Permanent 
Investigations Subconmiittee ; Roy Cohn, chief counsel ; David Schine, 
chief consultant ; Mrs. Ruth Young Watt, chief clerk. 

Senator McCarthy. The committee will come to order. 

I may say one of the reasons for calling more authors whose works 
have been used in the libaries is to perhaps clarify some of the con- 
fusion in regard to what the objectives of the information program 
are, and also to give the American people a better picture of the type 
of authors whose works were being usecl to fight communism allegedly. 

Mr. Counsel, which witness do you wish to call first? 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Rockwell Kent, Mr. Chairman. 

STATEMENT OF ROCKWELL KENT, ACCOMPANIED BY DAVID EEIN, 

WASHINGTON, D. C. 

Senator McCarthy. ^Mr. Kent, you have been sworn. You are re- 
minded that the oath continues in effect. Just for the record, you can 
consult with counsel any time you care to. You can stop your testi- 
mony if and when you like and talk to counsel. If you feel you want a 
private conference with him, we will try to give you a private room for 
that. 

May I make the suggestion, however, that when you have your 
confidential conference that you do not do it into the mikes. We have 
had the experience several times of counsel conferring with his client, 
the Senators could not hear, but quite a few people on radio or tele- 
vision could hear what they were saying. 

May I ask counsel, has it been established that considerable of the 
works of Mr. Kent have been purchased by the old information auth- 
orities and used in our libraries? 

:Mr. Cohn. I think that there are several hundred copies. 

Mr. Schine. That is correct, Mr. Chairman. 

417 



418 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Kent, may I ask you this question, first : Is 
it correct that at one time vou contributed some $800 to the Commu- 
nist Party? 

Mr. Kent. That is correct. It was in the year 1933. May I tell 
again the circumstances? 

Senator McCarthy. Yes. I may say you may answer any ques- 
tion at any length you care to. 

Mr. Kent. Thank you. 

Senator McCarthy. Any explanation that you care to make of any 
answer. 

Mr. Kent. I would like to make the explanation. It was money 
received by the rental of my home against my orders. I tried to make 
the tenant take the money back and live in my home as a gift. In re- 
turn for that generous gesture, I got a most insulting letter. I said to 
myself to whom can I give this money which I did not feel to be mine. 
Who will be the most hateful, the greatest possible enemy of such 
people. I went to New York and looked up under "C" in the telephone 
book, Communist Party, and I counted eenie-meenie-minie-mo, 
whether it was the Communist Party or Communist Labor Party, and 
it came out Communist Party, and I sent them the $800, and stated at 
the time that this was money to which I felt I was not entitled. It was 
not my money. 

Dr. JMatthews. Did you go to Communist Party headquarters and 
personally deliver the money? 

Mr. Ejent. I did not. 

Senator McCarthy. I might say you could have found a better 
charity to give it to. 

Mr. Kent. Nobody who would hate such people more. 

Senator McCarthy. Have you contributed other amounts of money 
to organizations that have been officially listed by the Attorney Gen- 
eral as fronts for doing work for the Communist Party? 

Mr. Kent. I have contributed to many such organizations I con- 
tribute to any organization that I feel is serving a good cause. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you think that the organizations that are 
fronts for and doing the work for the Communist Party are serving a 
good cause? 

Mr. Kent. The fact that they are listed by the Attorney General or 
by anyone else as subversive does not sway me to any degree. I am a 
man who makes up his own mind, and if I believe that they are serving 
a good cause and know what that cause is, then I will join them. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you think that communism is serving a 
good cause? 

Mr. Kent. I know very little about communism. I have come to a 
judgment about communism. I remember reading the Martin Dies 
book, listing what seemed to me practically every organization in 
America that was in my opinion doing good work, working for the 
Negroes, for freedom, for the poor, for good legislation. My conclu- 
sion on finishing that book was what would America be without these 
so-called Communist fronts. What would it be without the Com- 
munists. 

Senator McCarthy. At the time you prepared the works which the 
old State Department purchased, were you then a member of the 
Communist Party ? 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 419 

Mr. Kent. In answer to that question, I am going to invoke the 
privilege of the fifth amendment, and if you please, refuse to answer. 

Senator McCarthy. You understand you can only invoke the 
privilege, Mr. Kent, if you feel that a truthful answer to that question 
might tend to incriminate you. 

Mr. Kent. The answer will only be truthful if I make it. I feel 
that an answer might be a link in the chain of evidence that might be 
incriminating. 

Senator McCarthy. Are you a member of the Communist Party 
as of today ? 

Mr. Kent. Should I go through this rigamarole every time ? I avail 
myself of the fifth amendment. Is that all right? 

Senator McCarthy. That is sufficient. In other words, when you 
say you avail yourself of the fifth amendment, we understand you to 
say that if you were to give a truthful answer, that answer might tend 
to incriminate you, ancl therefore you refuse to answer. 

Mr. Kent. Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. I have no further questions. 

I think that is all, Mr. Kent. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Kent. I am really going to ask the indulgence of the com- 
mittee. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Kent, may I say this, that you certainlv 
are a very pleasant individual. Looking at you, you certainly would 
not be taken by the average person to be a member of the Communist 
Party. When you tell us that if you were to truthfully tell us whether 
you are a member of the Communist Party, that is the strongest indi- 
cation we can get that you are a member of the Communist Party. So 
no matter how pleasant you may seem, I must refuse to hear any 
speech or any lecture from you. If you were to tell us that you were 
a member of the party and tell us when you joined, and why you 
were a member, I would not object to hearing from you. I have no 
objection to hearing from any member of tlie party who has the guts 
to stand up and say. "I am a Communist," and then let him preach 
his doctrine if he wishes. I am a strong believer, however, that where 
you have poison, it should be labeled poison. Where it is not poison, 
it should be properly labeled. So we will not hear any lecture from 
you unless you care to tell us whether you are a member of the party. 

Mr. Kent. Lecture is the wrong word. The indulgence that I ask 
is that only the night before last I received the summons, and I live 
300 miles north of New York, and 25 miles from the railroad station, 
and I got here. I am really here of my own free will, because I wanted 
to come before the committee and tell them what I believe. There is 
no signature to this. It is no more good to me than a check without 
a signature. 

Mr. CoHN. The original, of course, was signed, Mr. Chairman. The 
original w^hich was in the hands of the marshal when service was made 
bore the signature of the chairman. Furthermore, Mr. Kent had 
actual notice that he was wanted by the committee. I read a state- 
ment he macle to the press in the newspapers over the weekend. 

Mr. Kent. I knew I was to be called. 

Senator McCarthy. May I ask one further question, Mr. Kent? 
Over the weekend after the papers carried the story that you were 
to appear here, you made a statement which was not under oath. 
You said it was ridiculous for anyone to assume — I am not quoting 



420 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 

from memory — or claim you are a member of the Communist Party. 
I believe your statement was to the effect that you were not a member 
of the party. 

Mr. Kent. When was this ? 

Senator McCarthy. Is that a correct quotation ? 

Mr. Kent. When ? 

Senator McCarthy, Let me ask you this : Did you tell the press 
after the notice of your subpena that you were not a member of the 
party ? 

Mr. Kent. No. The press notice that I saw in the Times, I think, 
the Syracuse Times-Union, was correct. I said nothiufr whatever. 
There was no question asked me, and I made no remark whether I 
was or was not a member of the Communist Party. I did say that 
I consider these book burnings as exactly paralled to the book burn- 
ing in Hitler Germany, and came to the same judgment about those 
who are responsible for it, that the American people came to in regard 
to those responsible for the book burnings in Germany. 

Senator McCarthy. If you did not make that statement, I beg your 
pardon. I understood you stated to the press you are not a member 
of the party. Would you think it would be improper to burn obscene, 
filthy books that are on newsstands on the corner available to your 
children or your neighbor's children? 

Mr. Kent. May I on the authority of a writer and painter 

Senator McCarthy. Will you try and answer that? You are talk- 
ing about book burnings. I assume by book burnings you mean the 
removal of books from the stand, and getting rid of books. Let us 
forget about the Communist writers for the time being. 

Mr. Kent. Yes. 

Senator McCarthy. If j^ou find filthy, obscene books on the corner 
newsstand — I do not know whether you have children or not, but I 
assume you have — and they are available to your children, would 
you advocate that those be removed and not be made available to 
youngsters ? 

Mr. Kent. All art is to be a crystallization and embodiment of the 
human beings, and they must be thought of as human beings. I 
would prosecute books for filthiness, lewdness 

Senator McCarthy. I did not get the first part of your sentence. 

Mr. Kent. My books are the best of myself that I can put into the 
book. It is me. It is a living thing. I believe that all books should 
be looked upon as living things and treated as human beings. If 
they are obscene, if they advocate murder, if they advocate any viola- 
tion of the law, if they advocate treason, they should be dealt with, 
tried, and punished, and confiscated. 

Senator McCarthy. You cannot try and punish a book. Let us 
say that a book does advocate the things you mentioned. Let us 
assume it is obscene. Let us assume it advocates the violation of our 
laws. Would you say that book should be removed from the corner 
newsstand? 

Mr. ICent. If found guilty by due trial. 

Senator McCarthy. How can you try a book ? 

Mr. Kent. You can try a book. This is a committee that is virtually 
trying me. It amounts to that, does it not ? 

Senator McCarthy. We have not mistreated you, have we? We 
merely asked you whether you are a member of the Communist Party. 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 421 

Mr. Kent. And by not answering the question, though I don't 
answer it to protect guilt or innocence, I feel my answer — that pro- 
vision in the fifth amendment to be for the protection of the innocent 
as well as to shield the guilty. 

Senator McCarthy. You are wrong, Mr. Kent. The provision of 
the fifth amendment is to avoid forcing a man to convict himself. 
You perhaps know the origin of that. You are a writer. 

Mr. Kent. I mentioned the origin of it in the preliminary dealing. 
I believe the origin was in the puritan days when they wanted to tell 
what they believed and could not because they would be prosecuted. 

Senator McCarthy. You are wrong. The origin goes farther than 
that. The origin comes from old English law and practice. At the 
time when a criminal could go into a church, and as long as he hung 
on the rail, he could not be apprehended, and from that stemmed the 
English law which we have copied to the effect that a guilty man 
never need convict himself. If you were not a member of the Com- 
munist Party, then you could very simply say, "No; I am not a 
member." That would in no way incriminate you. So when you tell 
this committee, "If I were to tell the truth and tell you whether I am 
or am not a Communist, the truth might incriminate me," that is the 
same as telling this committee and the world that you are a member 
of the party. That cannot be used against you in a criminal case, of 
course. It could not even be presented to a jury, the fact that you 
refused to testify here. But you are here before a committee, you 
are under oath, you have the opportunity today if you are not a Com- 
munist to very simply say, "No ; I am not a Communist." We are 
giving you that opportunity. You may avail yourself of it if you 
are not a Communist. If you are a Communist, then, of course, you 
should refuse to answer. Otherwise you might be prosecuted for 
perjury. 

Mr. 'Kent. Senator, what you have said I understand. As I said, 
this committee renders a verdict of guilty for those who invoke an 
amenclment that I believe exists — a privilege that I believe exists for 
the innocent as well as for the guilty. 

Senator McCarthy. I thank you, Mr. Kent. 

Mr. Kent. Senator, I would like to leave this statement with you. 

Senator McCarthy. You certainly may. 

Mr. Kent. I would like to read it, but you said you don't want a 
lecture. I get paid for lectures. 

Senator McCarthy. I want to say if you will answer the question 
as to whether or not you are a Communist as of this moment, if you 
will say, "Yes, I am," or if you will say, "No, I am not," we will hear 
from you. I do not have any objection to hearing from a man who 
says, "I am a Communist." I am not worried about that man pervert- 
ing the minds of the American people. But when you refuse to an- 
swer, I frankly will hear no more from you. 

Mr. Kent. 1 am sorry, because I had serious charges to bring here 
of a conspiracy to overthrow the American Government by force and 
violence. 

Senator McCarthy. You may step down unless you answer the 
(iviestion. 

Mr. I^NT. Thank you. 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Eichard O. Boyer. 

33616— 53— pt. 7 2 



422 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 

STATEMENT OF EICHARD 0. BOYEE, ACCOMPANIED BY DAVID REIN, 

WASHINGTON, D. C. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Boyer, you are reminded that you are still 
under oath. 

At this point I would like to read the very brief statement by the 
Secretary of State in regard to the removal of books by Communist 
authors from our information centers. I would like to compliment 
the Secretary of State for his very clearly and intelligently written 
letter, as well as the attitude he has taken. This was written to two 
Senators who wrote him in regard to his policy. He says : 

My Dear Senator: I have your letter of June 18 inquiring about the policy 
with relation to the overseas libraries of the International Information Adminis- 
tration. These libraries, unlike the usual reference libraries, are special purpose 
libraries, designed in accordance with the United States Information and Edu- 
cation Exchange Act of 1948 to "disseminate abroad information about the 
United States, its people, and policies promulgated by the Congress, the President, 
the Secretary of State, and other responsible officials of Government having to 
do with matters affecting foreign affairs." 

The administration itself is a semiautonomous agency and the executive 
branch of the present Government has, since it took oflSce, contemplated that it 
should become an independent agency. Under the reorganization plan now pend- 
ing before the Congress, this will occur on July 30, 1953. 

However, pending such complete legal separation, I felt an obligation to act 
to correct what seemed to me abuses which had developed. The overseas book 
program, I had reason to believe, was disseminating information which could 
not with any reasonable interpretation fall within the congressional mandate. 
In particular I wanted to make sure that it would not disseminate information 
which might advance the cause of Soviet communism. 

On February 24, 1953, with the President's approval, I appointed Dr. Robert 
L. Johnson to become Director of the International Information Administration, 
and on March 17, 1953, I advised him that I did not think that the HA should 
make the works of Communist authors a part of its foreign libraries or subscribe 
to periodicals which are receptive to international Communist propaganda. My 
memorandum to Dr. Johnson concluded, "If you find these ideas acceptable, I 
must rely on you to translate them into what is an appropriate and practical 
working level directive. I have not since personally intervened in this matter. 

Dr. Johnson did find the above guidance from me acceptable and, I am in- 
formed, issued one or more directives designed to reflect it at the working level. 
These directives, however, seem to have been interpreted and applied in different 
ways in different overseas libraries, with some results which I, and I am confi- 
dent Dr. Johnson, cannot approve. 

Dr. Johnson tells me that he and his advisers and staff have recently been 
conducting a review of the situation with a view to seeking a more practical 
working level directive. 
Sincerely yours, 

John Foster Dulles. 

I may say this was not written to me, but written to two other Sen- 
ators. I should also announce at this time that we have discussed 
with Dr. Jolmson whether or not he would like to appear and testify 
to clear up some of the confusion which may exist, and he has indicated 
that he is not only willing but anxious to testify. 

I read in one of the papers that the works of Whittaker Chambers 
had been banned from certain libraries. Wliittaker Chambers, as we 
all know, has been an outstanding fighter against communism since 
he was responsible for the conviction of Alger Hiss. He wrote an 
excellent book upon espionage. I cannot imagine that the individual 
who was responsible for that was doing it because of stupidity. I do 
not believe even in the old State Department there was anyone quite 
that stupid. I cannot help but believe that was deliberately done to 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 423 

embarrass Mr. Dulles and Mr. Johnson, and I would like very much 
to get the name of the individual who banned Whittaker Chambers' 
book, and I would like him to come before the committee and explain 
why and on what authority he did that, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Boyer. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Boyer, did you write a book entitled, 
"Speaking of Peace"? 

Mr. Boyer. No. 

Senator McCarthy. I beg your pardon. Are you acquainted with 
the book, Speaking of Peace ? 

Mr. Boyer. I would like to have it identified a little further, if I 
might. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you know whether or not a speech of yours 
is contained in this book, Speal^ing of Peace, a book which is written 
by Mr. Gilmore ? 

Mr. Boyer. Could I look at it? 

Senator McCarthy. I will hand you the book and refer you to page 
80, and ask if this is a correct reproduction of one of your speeches. 
While you are doing that, may I ask counsel whether you have con- 
firmed the fact through the State Department that the works of Mr. 
Boyer were being used at the time this investigation began in the 
libraries abroad ? 

Mr. ScHiNE. We have established that, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. That has been confirmed by the State Depart- 
ment ? 

Mr. ScHiNE. It has. 

Mr. Boyer. Yes, I recognized a sentence here that I spoke. 

Senator McCarthy. Is that your speech ? 

Mr. Boyer. It says, "Wliile Communist " 

Senator McCarthy'. You need not read it. I ask you Is that your 
speech ? 

Mr. Boyer. Yes. Can I read the speech? 

Senator McCarthy. No. 

Mr. Boyer. Can I read any excerpt from the speech ? 

Senator McCarthy. We will get to that. We will first ask you the 
question whether or not you are a member of the Communist Party, 
and find out whether or not you want to answer that before we hear 
any lectures. I want to ask you whether or not this is a correct quote, 
"I emphasize the Emersonian theme of individual responsibility as an 
American Communist. To the uninformed it may seem strange em- 
phasis coming as it does from a Communist." Is that your language? 

Mr. Boyer. I wish you would read the rest of the paragraph. 

Senator McCarthy. Is that your language ? 

Mr. Boyer. That is correct, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Were you a Communist at that time? 

Mr. Boyer. I would like, if I may, and if it is proper, to say that I 
stand by everytliing that is said in that speech or in anything I have 
written at anv time or place. 

Senator McCarthy. The question you must answer is whether or not 
you were a member of the party, unless you feel the answer would 
incriminate you. 

Mr. Boyer. Are you asking me whether I am a member of the party 

now? 



424 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 

Senator McCarthy. No ; whether you were a member at the time 
you wrote this piece. 

Mr. BoYER. Can I ask counsel ? 

Senator McCarthy. You may confer with counsel. 

(Witness consulted with his counsel.) 

Mr. BoYER. Let me answer it, if I may, and as responsively as I 
may in this manner. I am very proud of my political convictions 
which I would be eager to tell you about if you would care to listen 

to them. 

Senator McCarthy. May I interrupt you ? We are not interested 
in your political convictions, I do not care whether you are a Demo- 
crat or Progressive, or what your political convictions are. I am not 
asking youlibout your political convictions, but whether you were a 
member and part of this international conspiracy to overthrow the 
United States Government by force and violence. In other words, 
were you a member of the Communist Party at the time you made this 
speech ? 

Mr. Boyer. I have never been a member of an international con- 
spiracy to overthrow the United States Government or any other 
government by force and violence. If you will let me answer, 
Senator 

Senator McCarthy. You will answer that question jBrst. 

Mr. Boyer. I will answer completely and responsively the question. 

Senator McCarthy. You will first answer whether or not you are 
a member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Boyer. Now ? 

Senator McCarthy. If you refuse to answer that, we will hear no 
speeches from you. 

Mr. Boyer. I am not trying to give a speech, sir. I am trying to 
give a responsive answer. 

Senator McCarthy. You will answer whether or not you are a 
member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Boyer. If you will permit me to, I will answer the question. 

Senator McCarthy. Answer it ; were you or were you not? 

Mr. Boyer. Were not what and when ? 

Senator McCarthy. We will repeat it for you. 

Mr. Boyer. I wish you would. 

Senator McCarthy. At the time you gave this speech from which 
I just quoted, which was in 1949, were you at that time a member of 
the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Boyer. Now, I would like to answer that in a single sentence 
and completely responsively, if you will let me. Although I am very 
proud of my political convictions in view of the McCarran Act, and 
in view of the Smith Act which sends Americans to prison for their 
political beliefs, I find it necessary, regretfully necessary to assert my 
privilege under the fifth amendment. 

Senator McCarthy. Let us see if you know what the Smith Act pro- 
vides. Do you ujiderstand that the Smith Act provides that you are 
guilty of a crime not merely for belonging to the Communist Party — 
that does not make you subject to prosecution — but that you are guilty 
of a crime if. No. 1, you are a member of the party, and No. 2, you were 
aware of the fact that the party conspires to overthrow this Govern- 
ment by force and violence? I can understand why you dislike that 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 425 

act. Your answer is that if you were to tell us tlie truth you feel that 
answer might tend to incriminate you ; is that correct? 

Mr, BoYER. My answer is this, that I avail myself of the privilege 
of the fifth amendment not because 1 am guilty of anything, but because 
of unconstitutional laws which put me in jeopardy. 

Senator McCakthy. In other words, the criminal laws now existent 
are unconstitutional and for that reason you must refuse to answer? 

j\lr. BoYER. That I must refuse to answer under the provisions of the 
fifth amendment which I wish to disagree with you as you outlined to 
Mr, Kent. I believe that it does, and I believe that a United States 
P'ecleral court — I know that a Federal court only recently held — that it 
was for the protection of the innocent. 

Senator McCarthy. Is it your answer that if you were to tell us the 
truth as to whether or not you were a Comnnmist in 1949, when you 
made this speech, that truthful answer might tend to incriminate you ? 
If that is your position, you are entitled to refuse. Otherwise, you 
will be ordered to answer. 

Mr, BoYER, My position is that under the present laws I would be 
regrettably imperiled if I did not avail myself of the fifth amendment. 

Senator McCarthy. I am going to make you answer the question. 
I am not talking about you being imperiled. You can only refuse 
to answer if you feel a truthful answer might tend to incriminate you. 
If you feel it would, you can tell us, and avail yourself of the privilege. 
If not, you are ordered to answer. 

Mr. BoYER, Then I avail myself of the privilege which I have been 
trying to do consistently. 

Senator McCarthy. Before we can determine whether you can avail 
yourself of the privilege, you must tell us whether or not a truthful 
answer to that question might tend to incriminate you under the pres- 
ent laws of this country whether you like them or not, 

Mv. BoYER. Under the present regrettable circumstances in the 
United States, I believe an answer would incriminate me. 

Senator McCarthy. You may refuse. 

Did you write a book called the Dark Ship? 

Mv. BoYER. I did. 

Senator INIcCarthy. You do not believe in the destruction of books, 
I assume, even if you disagree with them? 

]\Ir. BoYER. I do not. 

Senator McCarthy. Y ou would not believe in recalling a book from 
a publisher and having it taken out of circulation even if you dis- 
agreed with it ? 

Mr. BoYER. No. 

Senator ]\IcCarthy. Is that correct? 

Mr, BoYER. That is correct. 

Senator McCarthy. At the time you wrote this book, did you un- 
derstand that Mr, Curran was a member of the Comnnmist Party ? 

Mr, BoYER, As far as I know he never has been. 

Senator McCarthy. After you learned that Mr. Curran had broken 
with the Communist Party, did you try to have your book withdrawn 
from all of the 

Mr, BoYER. Of course not, absolutely not. 

Senator McCarthy, You did not? 

Mr. BoYER, No, absolutely not. 



426 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 

Senator McCarthy. Did you ever discuss with the publisher the 
fact that in this book you had praised up Curran, while you thought 
he was a member of the party ? After you had written it, and before 
it got on the newsstand, you learned that Curran had broken with the 
party, and therefore it would embarrass you if the book appeared on 
the bookstands and that you wanted to recall it. 

Mr. BoYER. You have been completely misinformed. Nothing like 
that in any part of your question was even remotely true. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you go to Dartmouth ? 

Mr. Boyer. No. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you go to Harvard ? 

Mr. BoYER. No. 

Senator McCarthy. I am getting you witnesses mixed up. I guess 
it was the next witness who went to Harvard. What college did you 
go to? 

Mr. BoYER. I didn't go to any college. I went for a half semester. 

Senator McCarthy. Are you a member of the Communist Party as 
of this moment ? 

Mr. Boyer. Again I want to say that I am very proud of my po- 
litical beliefs, but feel that it is necessary 

Senator McCarthy. I am not talking about your political beliefs. 
I am asking you whether you are a member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. BoYER. But feel it is necessary in response to your question to 
plead my privilege under the fifth amendment. 

Senator McCarthy. You have that right to plead the privilege. 

Counsel has some questions. 

Mr. Cohn. In this book of yours, The Dark Ship, you talk about a 
man named Blackie Meyers. Do you know Blackie Meyers ? 

(No response.) 

Mr. Cohn. Do you know Blackie Meyers? 

Mr. BoYER. Yes ; I know Blackie Meyers. 

Mr. CoHN". Is Blackie Meyers a Communist espionage agent? 

Mr. BoYER. I would say, of course, not as far as I know. I would 
say that it was a libel and it may be a deliberate libel. 

Mr. Cohn. Is he a Communist? 

Mr. BoYER. I don't know whether he is a Communist. 

Mr. Cohn. You don't know whether he is a Communist or not ? 

Mr. BoYER. No; not at this juncture I most certainly do not. 

Mr. Cohn. Was he ever a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Boyer. It would be purely hearsay. I have no personal knowl- 
edge. At any rate, I will avail myself again, because I am forced to 
by this kind of questioning which tries to implicate innocent people, 
of the privilege of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Cohn. I will now quote from your book, page 221 : 

It was in Seattle that Blackie joined the Communist Party of the United 
States when he decided that the only permanent way out of war and poverty was 
for the people of the earth to own and democratically operate the earth's re- 
sources for the benefit of all instead of the profit of the few. He believes, he 
says, that the profit system, the dog-eat-dog system is responsible for war and 
depression. 

Was that Blackie Meyers you were referring to ? 
Mr. BoYER. Let me say that I stand by completely with everything 
that I have written in that book, that I do not wish to be put in the 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 427 

position of under the present political climate of having anything to 
do with harming another person. 

Mr. CoHX. You talk about smears on innocent people. You in this 
book state Blackie Meyers, and the last name is spelled out on page 
223, was a member of the Communist Party, and tell when and where 
he joined the party. 

Mr. BoYER. That is when the countiy was operating under the Bill 
of Rights. 

Mr. CoHN. What Constitution are you operating under today? 

Mr. BoYER. I revere and will fight for the Constitution of the United 
States, and its Bill of Rights, which I don't think you will do. 

Mr. CoiiN. Now let me ask you this : Are you a member of the Com- 
munist Party as of this moment ? 

Mr. BoTER. I believe that question has been answered. 

]\Ir. ConN. Would you answer that for us again, and I want to 
follow it up with another. 

Mr. BoYER. My answer stands on that. Senator McCarthy had a 
lot of questioning about that. 

Mr. CoHX. Have you ever urged scientists to withhold their aid 
from the United States in time of war and other times ? 

Mr. BoTER. Of course not, and you know I haven't. 

Mr. CoiiN. Did you ever make a speech entitled "On Civil Dis- 
obediance" ? 

Mr. BoYER. No. 

Mr. CoHN. You never did ? 

Mr. BoYER. I never did. 

Mr. ConN. Did you ever make any remarks on that subject at the 
Waldorf Peace Conference? 

Mr. BoYER. I quoted Thoreau. 

Mr. CoHN. You did ? 

Mr. BoYER. And I quoted Thoreau to the effect — ^I quoted part of 
his public celebration of what the law called "treason" — I said that 
his last public appearance before his death was his defense of Capt. 
John Brown, whose execution for treason he declared was a judgment 
not on Brown, but on America. 

Senator McCarthy. To refresh your recollection, did you make a 
speech in New York on the 25th of March 1949 to some scientists? 

Mr. BoYER. I made the speech which I have identified, Senator, and 
which you have asked me about. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you at that time either by quoting someone 
else or by making a personal statement approve civil disobedience on 
the part of scientists and urge that they withhold their services from 
our Government in times of war if we were in war with the Soviet 
Union ? 

Mr. BoYER. At that time I quoted Thoreau's opposition to the 
ISIexican War of 1846. I quoted Emerson's opposition to a Federal 
law in which he said, "By God, I will not obey it." I quoted many 
abolitionists who for 30 years were described as traitors when they 
were fighting for the liberation of the Negro people, and who were 
often also described as trying to overthrow the United States Govern- 
ment by force and violence. 

Senator McCarthy. I think you can answer my question. You 
understand it, I am sure. 



428 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 

Mr. BoTER. I have answered it. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you at that time urge the scientists that 
they withhold any aid of the benefit of their learning from this country 
if we were at war with Communist liussia ? 

Mr. BoYER. Senator McCarthy, you have the speech before you and 
you are enough of a lawyer to know that the speech is the best evidence. 
Eead me what I said and I will tell you whether I said it. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you know now whether or not you did 
advocate it ? 

Mr. Boyer. Of course not. 

Senator McCarthy. You do not know whether you did or not ? 

Mr. BoYER. I know I never in any way, shape, manner or form ad- 
vocated any overthrow of the Government or whatever you are asking. 

Senator McCarthy. Let us get back to the question. Did you give 
a speech to the scientists urging that it was wnthin their rights if in 
time of war they were to withhold their services from the country? 

Mr. Boyer. No, sir. In the first place, I never talked to any scien- 
tists at all. You are completely misinformed on the wdiole thing. 
You have that speech there, and I have said I stand by everything in it. 

Senatoi* McCarthy. 1 o whom did you speak on the 25th of March 
1939? 

Mr, Boyer. A panel of writers. 

Senator McCarthy. A panel of writers? 

Mr. Boyer. That is right. 

Senator McCarthy. At that time you say you quoted various people 
and extolled the virtues of those who opposed certain military actions 
Ave engaged in ? 

Mr. Boyer. No, no. I quoted historic and well-known Americans, 
such as Emerson and Thoreau, and Theodore Parker and many others 
in their opposition of unjust wars. 

Senator McCarthy. And you urged it would be an unjust war if we 
went to war with Communist Russia or if Communist Russia went to 
war with us. 

Mr. Boyer. Again I say the speech is there, and it is the best evi- 
dence, and read me from the speech and I will tell you whether I 
said it. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you recall whether the theme of your talk 
was that it would be an unjust war, we would be wrong if we went to 
war with Communist Russia? 

Mr. Boyer. I beg your pardon. I would like to confer with counsel. 

(Witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Boyer. Since you are so intensely interested in this speech, and 
I am sure under the circumstances perhaps the American people would 
be, I would suggest that you give me the speech and let me read it in 
its entirety, and let the American people themselves judge what it is. 

Senator McCarthy. Thank you for the suggestion. 

You testified that you did not know that Blackie Meyers was a 
Communist. I am going to refer you to page 221 of your book. 

Mr. Boyer. Wait a minute. I said in the first place that everything 
that is in that book or any other book, I stand by completely. I said 
I have not seen Blackie Meyers for years, and know nothing of his 
present situation in any way, shape, or form. 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAJVI 429 

Senator McCarthy. You were asked under oath twice in executive 
session and again in public session whether you kncAv that Blackie 
Meyers was ever a Communist, and you said you never knew that he 
was one. 

Mr. BoYER. No; I don't agree. I would like to see the record on 
that. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you want to change your testimony now? 

Mr. BoYER. I am not changing my testimony. I am saying, and I 
said repeatedly, that everything I have written I stand by completely. 

Senator McCarthy. We are not asking you that. 

Mr. BoYER. As I recall the question in the executive session, I was 
asked if I knew that Blackie Meyers was an espionage agent, and I said 
that I found it completely inconceivable to believe, but that I had no 
knowledge of it, and I thought it was a libel. 

Senator McCarthy. Let me ask you this question : Is this statement 
made on page 221 of your book a correct statement? 

Mr. BoYER. Eveiy page in that book is correct as I can make it. 

Senator McCarthy. .Please let me finish the question. 

Mr. BoYER. I am sorry. 

Senator McCarthy (reading) : 

It was in Seattle that Blackie joined the Communist Party of the United States. 

Is that correct so far? 

Mr. BoYER. It is correct that I wrote it in the book and that I stand 
by it. 

Senator McCarthy. Is it correct that Blackie Meyers joined the 
Communist Party in Seattle? 

Mr. Boyer. May I ask my counsel ? 

Senator McCarthy. You may discuss it with counsel. 

(Witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. BoYER. I am afraid that I will have to claim my privilege 
under the peculiar circumstances now. 

Senator McCarthy. I will say that you are claiming the privilege 
rather late, because you have testified to two things today. No. 1, you 
have testified that everything in the book is true. 

Mr. BoYER. To the best of my knowledge. 

Senator McCarthy. And No. 2, you have testified that you had no 
knowledge that Blackie Meyers joined the Communist Party. It is a 
direct contradiction. Either you have perjured yourself when you 
said you did not know that Blackie Meyers was a member of the 
Communist Party, or you have perjured yourself when you said your 
statement in the book is true. 

Mr. BoYER. Senator, in the first place, before we judge whether 1 
have perjured myself, I would suggest on such a serious matter that 
the record be sought on it. I recall my testimony in the executive 
session as being asked only whether Blackie :Meyers was an espionage 
agent, and the record should show my reply if there was a record 

then. 

Senator JNIcCarthy. I may say, Mr. Boyer, that as the record now 
stands, in my opinion as a lawyer and a former judge, that it is a 
clear case of perjury. Counsel was here. We asked you the question 
twice downstairs and here. 

33616— 53— pt. 7 3 



430 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAIM 

Mr. BoTER. Read it to me, will you. Would you read the record 
to me ? 

Senator McCarthy. No. 

Mr. BoYER. You would not? 

Senator McCarthy. You can read the record yourself. If you want 
to change it, you may. I will ask the question over again. No ; I will 
not ask it over again. 

Mr. BoYER. No; you want to get me if you can. 

Senator McCarthy. You may examine the record. It will be re- 
ferred to the Justice Department. 

Mr. Buyer. I would suggest that if there are any principles of 
fair play or any rules of evidence, that before a man is threatened 
with perjury in a case like this, that at the very least his contra- 
dicting statements be shown to him. 

Senator JNIcCarthy. I think we should take time for that. That 
may be a very reasonable request. 

The reporter will read the record, beginning with Mr. Cohn's in- 
terrogation of the witness. 

(The record was read as follows :) 

Mr. CoHN. In this book of yours, The Dark Ship, yon talk about a man 
named Blackie Meyers. Do you know Blaekie Meyers'.' 

(No response.) 

Mr. CoHN. Do you know Blackie Meyers? 

Mr. BoYER. Yes ; I know Blackie Meyers. 

Mr. CoHisr. Is Blackie Meyers a Communist espionage agent? 

Mr. BoYER. I would say, of course, not as far as I know. I would say that 
it was a libel and it may be a deliberate libel. 

Mr. CoHX. Is he a Communist? 

Mr BoYEB. I don't kudw whether he is a Communist. 

Mr. CoHN. You don't know whether he is a Communist or not? 

Mr. BoYER. No, not at this juncture I most certainly do not. 

Mr. CoH.\. Was he ever a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. BoYER. It would be piu-ely hearsay. I have no personal knowledge. At 
any rate, I will avail myself again, because I am foi'ced to by this kind of 
questioning which tries to implicate innocent people, of the privilege of the 
tifth amendment. 

Senator McCarthy. AVas that statement correct that you had 
no personal knowledge that he was a member of the Communist 
Party ever '. 

Mr. Boyer. As in the record just read by the court reporter, as 
I availed myself of the privilege of the fifth amendment in that 
answer, I will again, and for the same reason, avail myself of the 
privilege. 

Senator McCarthy. The answer just read was to the effect that 
you had no personal knowledge that he was a Communist. 

]Mr. Boyer. And the answer continued and concluded by availing 
myself of the privilege. 

Mr, McCarthy. You will desist, sir, until I get through asking a 
question. Do you understand that? 

]\Ir. Boyer. Yes. 

Senator McCarthy. This is the last time we will have anything 
like this happen. 

Mr. Boyer. O. K. 

Senator INIcCarthy. The question is, when you stated that you have 
no personal knowledge that he was ever a member of the Communist 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 431 

Party, do you want to let that answer stand, or do you want to change 
it? 

(Witness conferred with his counseL) 

]\Ir. BoYER. I want the record to show that in response to the ques- 
tion when it was first put to me I asserted my privilege, and that I 
now assert it again. 

Senator McCarthy. May I say for the record that you cannot assert 
any privilege after j^ou have answered the question. In view of the 
fact that 3'ou are given the opportunity to correct that, if that is an 
improper statement, you have refused the opportunity, naturally the 
record will stand. It will be referred to the Justice Department. 

(Witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Senator McCarthy. Any further questions? 

INIr. CoiiN. No, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to ask this: Do you 
know John Lawrence? 

Mr. BoYER. I would like to assert m}^ privilege under the fifth 
amendment. 

]\Ir. CoHX. I can't hear you. 

]Mr. BoYER. I would like to assert my privilege under the fifth 
amendment. 

Mv. CoHN. Do you know where Mr. Lawrence is today ? 

Mr. Boyt:r. I don't know. 

Mr. CoiiN. You have no idea ? 

Mr. BoYER. Xo. 

Senator McCarthy. Just one question. Would you consider it a 
crime to plot the overthrow of the L^nited States Government by 
force and violence? 

Mr. BoYER. I most certainly would. 

Senator IMcCarthy. And would you think that a law which made 
that a crime was an improper law ? 

Mr. BoTER. I consider that a law whicli makes a political opinion 
a crime an improper law, and I consider that the Smith Act is that. 

Senator INIcCarthy. Will you answer my question ? Would you 
consider a law that made it a crime to plot the overthrow of our Gov- 
ernment bv force and violence an improper law ? 

Mr. BoYER. No, sir; not if it was properly drawn and properly 
enforced, and did not go into matters exclusively of political opinion, 
I would not think it was an improper law. 

Senator McCarthy. Just one hnal question. You do not care to 
tell us. No. 1, whether you Avere a Communist at the time you wrote 
the books which are on the information shelves, and No. 2, whether 
you are a Communist at this moment. You want to refuse to answer 
both those questions, I assume. 

Mv. BoYER. Under the circumstances. 

Dr. Matthews. ;Mr. Boyer, have you been a frequent contributor to 
the New Yorker magazine ? 

Mr. Boyer. I was at one time a frequent contributor. 

Dr. Mattheavs. For what other magazines have you written? 

Mr. Boyer. I have written for Reader's Digest, American ISIercury, 
Masses and Mainstream. 

Dr. Matthews. Is Masses and :Mainstream a Communist publica- 
tion ? 



432 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 

Mr. BoYER, I don't believe that it considers itself such. I believe it 
calls itself a Marxist publication. 

Dr. M\TTHEWs. For what other Communist magazines or Marxian 
magazines have you written ? 

Mr. BoYER. I think that is all that I recall. 

Dr. Mati'hews. Have you ever written for the New Masses ? 

Mr. BoYER. Yes. 

Dr. Matthews. For the Daily Worker ? 

Mr. BoYER. Yes. 

Dr. Matthews. Do you consider the Daily Worker a Communist 
Party publication? 

Mr. BoYER. I consider that it expresses the Communist viewpoint. 

Dr. Matthews. When you w^rote for the Daily Worker, did you 
express the Communist viewpoint ? 

Mr. BoYER. Wien I wrote for the Daily Worker I wrote my own 
viewpoint as I am speaking it now. 

Dr. JMaittiew^s. Would the Daily Worker print a viewpoint that 
was not the Communist viewpoint ? 

Mr. BoYER. Perhaps they coincide. 

Senator McCarthy. Perhaps your views coincide with the Com- 
munist viewpoint, is that your answer ? 

Mr. BoYER. No ; that was not my answer, although, as I say, I am 
very proud of my views. I am willing to relate them in detail. 

Senator McCarthy. I just wondered if I understood you. I 
thought you said that your vieAvs coincide. Do you mean that your 
views coincide with the Communist Party views ? 

Mr. BoYER. What I was trying to say is that I had never written 
anything which I did not deeply believe and that includes everything 
of mine — not much has appeared — but what has appeared in the Daily 
Worker. 

Senator McCarthy. I do not think you answered the question. In 
answer to Dr. Matthews' question, you said that perhaps the views 
coincided. 

Mr. Boyer. Yes. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you mean that your views coincided 
with the views of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Boyer. Coincicled with the view of the Daily Worker which 
often expresses the views of the Communist Party. 

Senator ISIcCarthy. And the Daily Worker is a Communist pub- 
lication ? 

Mr. Boyer. I don't think it describes itself as such. 

Senator McCarthy. I do not care what it describes itself as. 

Mr. Boyer. My answer would be that it prints the Communist view- 
point. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you think that a man whose views coincide 
with the Communist Party should be used as an author and his views 
stamped with our approval and his books placed throughout our li- 
braries throughout the world to express the American way of life and 
fight communism? 

Mr. Boyer. I don't think the true American way of life is expressed 
in fighting communism. I don't agree that it serves the interest of 
the American people to predicate our policy purely on fighting com- 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 433 

miinism. I believe in world peace and believe it can be achieved. 
So I don't agree with the policy. 

Senator McCarthy. In other words, you do not agree with the 
policy of fighting communism ? 

Mr. BoYER. No. 

Senator McCarthy. You may step down. 

Mr. CoHN. Professor Burgiim. 

TESTIMONY OF EDWIN BERRY BURGUM, ACCOMPANIED BY DAVID 

REIN, WASHINGTON, D. C. 

Senator McCarthy. You are reminded that you are under oath. 

Mr. CoHN. Will you give your full name for the record ? 

Mr. BuRGUM. Edwin Berry Burgum. 

Mr. CoHN. B-u-r-g-u-m? 

Mr. Burgum. B-u-r-g-u-m. 

Mr. CoHN. And are you the Edwin Berry Burgum who is an author 
and literary critic? 

Mr. Burgum. Yes. 

Mr. CoHN. Are you the author of various books and articles? 

Mr. Burgutvi. That is correct. 

Mr. CoHN. Those books are used in the Information program? 

Mr. ScHiNE. According to the information we received from the 
State Department; yes. 

Mr. CoHN. Are you a member of the Communist Party? 

]\Ir. BuR(;u:Nr. I feel that that question invades my right to private 
opinion. 

Senator McCarthy. Could you speak a little louder ? 

Mr. Burgum. I feel the question invades my right to private opinion 
under the first amendment, and I should like to record this conviction 
of mine. But at the same time, it seems to me that under present 
circumstances I should also invoke the fifth amendment in order that 
I shall not bear witness against myself. 

Senator JNIcCarthy. May I say this, Mr. Burgum : You have an 
absolute right under the first amendment to thinlc and say what you 
please, as long as you do not advocate the violent overthrow of this 
Government. You can preach the Communist doctrine, you can 
preach the Marxian philospohy. We are not concerned about that. 
However, we are concerned to know whether or not you were a Com- 
munist under the Communist discipline at the time that our Govern- 
ment was buying your works and spreading them throughout the 
world with our stamp of approval. There is a big difference between 
having your books available for the American people to buy. If 
they want to buy them, they have a natural right to buy them. If 
the European people want to buy your books, they have a right to buy 
them. It is a question of whether or not our Goverament should buy 
the works of Communist authors and place them throughout the world 
in this fight against Communists. 

Therefore, the first amendment has nothing whatsoever to do with 
your testimony. You can only refuse to testify if you honestly feel 
that a truthful answer might tend to incriminate you. 

Proceed, Mr. Counsel. 



434 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Burgiim, were 3^011 in 1947 a member of the Com- 
munist Party? 

Mr. BuRGUM. I invoke the fifth amendment on that question also. 
Under the interpretation of the fifth amendment tliat. the chairman 
has given yon, with the understanding, however, tliat the word "in- 
criminate" as it appears in the Bill of Rights has been interpreted 
broadly by the courts, so that it does not bear its popular implications, 
but on the contrary, keeps the fifth amendment within the great 
tradition that the rights of the innocent individuals should be pro- 
tected as well as the rights of any guilty person. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Burgum, may 1 say that if 3'ou are not a 
member of the Communist Party, it Avould not incriminate you to say 
you are not. The only condition under which you can invoke that 
privilege is that if you are a member. The difference between invok- 
ing here, however, and in a court is that this cannot be used against 
you in a criminal action. However, when you say, 'T will not tell 
whether I am a Communist because if I told the truth, it would in- 
criminate me," that is the same as serving notice that you are a 
member of the party. You understand that. If you are not a member, 
you need merely to say you are not a member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you state in one of these books that you regard the 
philosophy of Marx as dynamic and progressive? 

Mr. Burgum. The statement as you reminded me in the private 
session was that the philosophies of Marx and Hegel 

Mr. CoHN. That is right. 

Mr. Burgum. Were dynamic dialetic philosophies. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you use the word ''progressive"? 

Mr. Burgum. I believe in the quotation from the text that you gave 
in the private hearing, the word "progressive" did appear. 

Senator McCarthy. Do yon believe as of today that the teachings 
of Marxism would indicate a progressive line of thought and dynamic 
line of thought ? 

Mr. Burgum. I was speaking in that passage in my book of Marx- 
ism and Hegelism and philosophies, giving my understanding of one 
of the essential principles that both these philosophies share. 

Senator McCarthy. This book is one of the books in our informa- 
tion centers, you understand. 

Mr. Burgum. Yes. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you think that when you write that the 
philosophy of Marx and Hegel is dynamic and progressive that that 
is rather effectively fighting communism and forwarding our way 
of life? 

Mr. Burgum. I don't know from what chapter in the book this 
quotation comes, but at the time that I wrote that book, and indeed 
in my attitude as a literary critic at all times, I don't feel that it is 
within the province of a literary critic either to fight or to oppose 
connnunism or Hegelism, but to explain for the public the meaning 
and value of literature and that he begin 

Senator McCarthy. We are not talking al)out explaining some- 
thing to the American public. We are talking now about a book 
placed in one of our information centers for the alleged purpose of 
exposing communism for what it is. Do you think that a book which 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 435 

ur<res that coiiinninism or Marxism is dj^iiamic, progressive, is an 
effective way of fiahting comniuiiisiu ? 

Mr. BuRGUM. As a matter of fact, I was not talking about com- 
nninism in that passage at all, but about the philosophy of connnu- 
nism, which is held as a matter of fact by a number of political i)ar- 
ties that have nothing to do with the Connnunist Pai-ty. 1 was de- 
lining that philosophy as along with Hegelism, a philosophy that had 
a notion that the history of mankind is progiessive as a whole, that it 
is impossible for mankind as a whole to retrogress to a state of bar- 
barism. That this is the meaning of the word '"progi'essive.'' 

Senator McCarthy. Do you think as of today that connnunism is a 
dynamic progressive philosophy 'i 

Mr. BuROTJM. I would like to invoke the fifth amenchnent on that 
question. 

Senator Mc^Carthy. All right, you are entitled to that. 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Burgum, were you until very recently, the last coui)le 
of months, a professor at New York University ? 

]\rr. Burgum. Yes. 

Mr. CoHN. For how long a period of time were you on the faculty 
there? 

Mr. Burgum. TAventy-eight years. 

Mr. CoHx. And during that time were you a member of the Com- 
munist Party? 

Mr. Burgum. I invoke the fifth amendment, if you please. 

Mr. CoiiN. Did you attend any Communist meetings with any 
other members of the faculty there? 

Mr. Burgum. I should also like to invoke the fifth on that question. 

Dr. Matthews. When was your professorship terminated at New 
I'ork T'niversitv? 

Mv. Burgum." The 30th of March. 

Mr. Matthews. What grounds were given by the university for 
tern)inating your teaching career there? 

^h: Bergum. The grounds given by the university were that I had 
invoked — in the charges — the fifth amendment when appearing be- 
fore the McCarran subcommittee, and secondly, that I had invoked 
tliem because I wished to conceal relations with the Communist Party. 

Dr. Matthews. For what papers and magazines have you written 
articles ? 

Mr. Burgum. I have written for many papers and magazines (lur- 
ing a fairly long number of years, such as the Antioch Keview, Science 
and Society, the Canyon Review, the Rocky Mountain Review, the 
Viiginia Quarterly Review. 

Dr. Matthews. Masses and IMainstream? 

Mr. Burgum. No, I have never written for Masses and Mainstream. 

Dr. Matthews. Have you written for any newspapers ? 

INIr. Burgum. I have never written for any newspapers except for a 
part of 1 year — I don't remember the exact length of time — I wrote 
reviews for the Sunday Book Review of the New York Times. 

Mr. CoHN. The New York Times ? 

INIr. Burgum. Yes. 

Senator McCarthy. Who hired you for that job? 

Mr. Bubgum. I don't remember. It was certainly over 5 years 
ago. 



436 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 

Senator McCarthy. You do not recall who hired you ? 

Mr. BuRGUM. I think the man has since died. 

Senator McCarthy. If you know he is dead, you must know his 
name. 

Mr. Btjrgum. I don't remember it. My memory for names is rather 
poor. He wrote a satirical novel on New York life that came out, but 
I simply can't remember his name. 

Senator McCarthy. You know he is dead, but you do not know his 
name ? 

JSIr. BuRGtJM. Yes, that is a frequent experience with my type of 
memory. We know all sorts of facts about a man except his name. 

Senator McCarthy. Very convenient. 

Dr. Matthews. How many reviews did you write for the New York 
Times Sunday Book Review section ? 

Mr. BuRGUM. I imagine I wrote between six or a dozen in the course 
of a year. 

Dr. Matthews. Were you a member of the Communist Party at the 
time you wrote those reviews ? 

Mr. BuRGUM. I should like again to invoke the fifth amendment to 
that question. 

Senator McCarthy. Did your boss in that job know that you were 
a member of the Communist Party? 

Mv. BuRGUM. I naturally have to invoke the fifth amendment to 
that question. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you ever discuss with your superior that 
you were a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. BuRGUM. I cannot answer the question in its present form. It 
has not been my habit at any time in dealing with any editors on any 
subject to discuss political questions at all. 

Senator McCarthy. I will ask you the question, and you can refuse 
to answer if you think it will incriminate you. Did you discuss with 
your superior when you were reviewing books for the Times, the fact 
that you were a Communist? 

Mr. BuRGUM. I must find the same objection to this question and I 
may say 

Senator McCarthy. By the same objection, what do you mean ? 

Mr. BuRGUM. That neither I nor the book review editor of the 
Times would have thought of asking any questions about political 
opinions. The books assigned to me were novels. The content of the 
reviews was such that they were acceptable to the Times, and I cannot 
see 

Senator McCarthy. I shall insist that you answer the question. 
Mr. BuRGUM. In that case I am soriy I have to say I invoke the 
privilege. 

Senator McCarthy. You refuse to answer on the ground the 
answer might incriminate you ? 

Mr. BuRGUM. Yes. 

Senator McCarthy. Who discharged you, or did you quit? 

Mr. BuRGUM. I quit. I was not of course a member of the staff. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you know any other book reviewers who 
were members of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. BuRGUM. I will invoke the fifth amendment. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you graduate from Dartmouth? 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFOR]VIATION PROGRAM 437 

Mr. BuRGUM. Yes. 

Senator McCarthy. And attended Harvard ? 

Mr. BuRGuM. Yes. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you become a Communist in the second or 
third year tliat you were at Dartmouth ? 

Mr. BuRGUM. I must again invoke the fifth amendment. 

Senator McCarthy. Were any of your professors at Dartmouth 
Communists ? I am not speaking now of members of tlie Communist 
Party, but Communists. 

]\Ir. BuRGUM. I again invoke the fifth amendment, although it 
might be recalled that I was at Dartmouth between the years of 11)11 
and 1915. 

Senator McCarthy. That is why I said that I did not ask you were 
you a member of the party. I asked you if you were a Communist. 
There was no organized party at that time but there were Communists 
at that time. 

Dr. Matthews. Do you know what year the Communist Manifesto 
was published ? 

Mr. BuRGUM. I think it was around 1848 ? 

Senator McCarthy. So 1848 in point of time is long before you 
were at Dartmouth. So you know there were Communists at the time 
you were at Dartmouth ? 

Mr. BuKGUM. No ; if you please, I invoke the fifth amendment on 
that question. 

Senator McCarthy. So that when you say this was away back in 
1911 to 1915, do you think that has any special significance? 

May I say it is significant to us to indicate that you were a Com- 
munist for that period of time. You do not want to tell us now — 
I will not go through the various years — whether you are a Com- 
munist today or whether you have been a Communists since the 
second year you were at Dartmouth. 

Mr. BuRGUM. It is correct I shall invoke the fifth amendment on 
those questions. 

Senator McCarthy. You are entitled to invoke it. 

Any further questions? 

Mr. CoHN. Yes; just one or two. _ 

Have you ever contributed any money to the Communist Party? 

Mr. BuRGUM. I should invoke the fifth amendment on that ques- 
tion also. 

Mr. CoHN. Have you contributed any funds which you obtained 
through royalties on your books to the Communist Party ? 

Mr. BuRGUM. Again I invoke the fifth amendment. 

Mr. CoHN. I have no further questions. 

Senator Symington. Mr. Burgum, are you an American? 

Mr. Burgum. Yes. 

Senator Symington. Do you think you are a good American? 

Mr. Burgum. I think so. 

Senator Sy^hngton. If you are a member of the Communist Party 
today, how could you be a good American ? 

Mr. Burgum. Senator, I am very sori-y that it is difficult for me 
to accept the wording of your questions since I have at no time in 
this hearing or elsewhere said I was or was not a member of the Com- 
munist Party. 

33616— 53— pt. 7 4 



438 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 

Senator Symington, Are you a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. BuRGUM. I have invoked the fifth amendment on that question. 

Senator Symington. How can you be a good American if you are 
a member of an organization dedicated to overthrow the United States 
Government by force and violence ? 

Mr. BuRGUM. Again you make it very difficult for me to answer 
the question, because the question involves the nature of the Com- 
munist Party in this country, and I don't consider that that is within 
my field of research and writing. 

Senator Symington. It has not got anything to do with your field 
of research and writing if you had been a member of the Communist 
Party in the thirties and changed as some people came up here and 
said honestly. We can understand that. I do not see how you can 
consider you are a good American regardless of what you read and 
write and at the same time you say you refuse to answer whether or 
not you are a Communist todav. Is not that a fair position for me 
to take? 

Mr. Burgum. It is not from my point of view, unfortunately, be- 
cause these many hearings have involved, to my mind, so many organ- 
izations that have worthy objectives in the preservation of our Con- 
stitution or in the preservation of democracy, that it seems to me 
wdien these worthy organizations are called Communist fronts 

Senator Symington. What has that got to do with the question as 
to whether or not you are a Communist today ? 

Mr. Burgum. I am proceeding to try to say that a great many organ- 
izations that are wholly within our democratic tradition, that are in 
favor of the propagation of democracy 

Senator Symington. Would you say the Communist Party is with- 
in our American tradition in the favor of propagation? I am trying 
to tie in 3' our observation in respect to the answer. 

Mr. Burgum. I may say that the work of these committees in my 
opinion has so confused with communism and the Communist Party 
or)ganizations whose objectives have nothing to do with commu- 
nism 

Senator Symington. What is confusing about answering whether 
or not you are a Communist today ? 

Mr. Burgum. It is because I support, the objective of many of these 
organizations, and yet by reason of the fact that they have been 
smeared as communistic, that one feels that he is laying himself open 
to the risk of incrimination if he does not invoke the fifth amend- 
ment on that issue. 

Senator Symington. Let me get straight what you say. You sup- 
port a lot of organizations which may or may not be Communist or 
Communist fronts as I understand what you say. 

Mr. Burgum. Yes. 

Senator Symington. And therefore, because you support those or- 
ganizations which may or may not be Communist organizations, you 
will not answer now whether or not you are a Communist yourself; 
is that right ? 

Mr. Burgum. That is not the reason for invoking the fifth amend- 
ment as I gave it. One has to add, I tliink, to your statement that 
under such circumstances to answer the question would be to testify 
against one's self. 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 439 

Senator Symingtox. I have no further questions. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you ever travel under any name other than 
the name you gave us today ? 

Mr. BuKGUM. No; I have never written under any otlier name, and 
I have never published anonjaiiously. 

Senator McCarthy. I did not ask you whether you ever wrote un- 
der another name. Did you ever use another name? 

Mr. BuRGUM. No ; I never have. 

Senator McCarthy. Were 3'ou known by a name other than Bur- 
gum in the Comnninist Party? 

]\Ir. BuRGUM. I must invoke the fifth amendment on that question. 

Senator McCarthy. You refuse to answer that? 

Mr. BuRGUM. Yes. 

Senator McCarthy. Were you ever known in any organization to 
which you belonged by a name other than Edwin Berry Burgum ? 

Mr. BuRGUM. I invoke the fifth amendment to that question, too. 

Senator McCarthy. Were you ever known by any name in any cir- 
cles other than Edwin Berry Burgum ? 

]\Ir. Burgum. I invoke the fifth amendment on that question. 

Senator McCarthy. You do not want to tell us what your alias was, 
tlien ? 

i\Ir. Burgum. I invoke the fifth amendment to that question. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you have more than one alias? 

]Mr. BuR(iUM. I invoke the fifth amendment. 

Senator McCarthy. You may step down. 

We have an executive session in room 1^57 at 2 : 30 and an open ses- 
sion at 10 : 30 in the morning. Incidental!}', while Senator Symington 
is here, we have a sizable number of witnesses in New York along the 
same line, at least one of them who claims to be in bad health and 
claims to be unable to come to AVashington; if the conmiittee has no 
objection we will have an open hearing in New York Eriday at 10 : 30 
and an open hearing tomorrow in Washington at 10 : 30, in this room. 

(Thereupon at 11 : 55 a. m., a recess was taken until Thursday, July 
2, 1953, at 10 : 30 a. m. 



STATE DEPAETMENT INFORMATION PROGEAM— 
INFORMATION CENTEES 



THURSDAY, JULY 2, 1953 

United States Senate, 
Senate Pekmanent Subcommittee on Investigations 

or THE Committee on Government Operations, 

Washington^ D. C. 

The subcommittee met (pursuant to S. Res. 40 agreed to January 30, 
1953), at 10:30 a. m. in room 318, Senate Office Building, Senator 
Joseph R. McCarthy (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding. 

Present: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin; 
Senator Karl E. Mundt, Republican, South Dakota ; Senator Herman 
Welker, Republican, Idaho. 

Present also: Dr. J. B. Matthews, executive director, Permanent 
Investigations Subcommittee; Roy Cohn, chief counsel; David 
Schine, chief consultant ; INIrs. Ruth Young Watt, chief clerk. 

Senator McCarthy. The committee will come to order. 

I believe the first witness is Mr. Wilkerson. Mr. Wilkerson, will 
you come forward ? 

TESTIMONY OF DOXEY A. WILKERSON, BROOKLYN, N. Y., ACCOM- 
PANIED BY JOSEPH FORER, ESQ., WASHINGTON, D. C— Resumed 

Mr. Wilkerson. Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Will you identify your counsel for the record? 

Mr. Wilkerson. Mr. Joseph Forer. 

Mr. Cohn. Will you speak a little louder, please? We have some 
trouble hearing you. 

Mr. Wilkerson. Mr. Josepli Forer is my counsel. 

Mr. CoiiN. Could we have your full name, please? 

Mr. Wilkerson. Doxey A. Wilkerson. 

Mr. CoHN. You know, of course, you are still under oath. You 
weie in executive session yesterday afternoon and you realize that 
oath carries over? 

Mr. Wilkerson. I understand. 

Mr. Cohn. Is it Mr. Wilkerson or Doctor Wilkerson? 

Mr. Wilkerson. Mr. Wilkerson. 

jNIr. Cohn. Your full name is Doxey Wilkerson, is that right? 

Mr. Wilkerson. Doxey A. Wilkerson. 

]\Ir. Cohn. And you are Doxey Wilkerson, the author, among other 
things? 

Mr. AViLKERSON. I have written some things. 

Mr. Cohn. And was one of the works you wrote Special Problems 
of Negro Education ? 

441 



442 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORIVIATION PROGRAM 

Mr. AViLKERSON. It was. May I interrupt, ]Mr. Colin, just a mo- 
ment? I should like to, at the outset of this hearing, present or to 
read to the committee a statement which sets forth my position con- 
cerningj my appearance here. 

Mr. CoHN. Mr. Chairman, I Avould suggest we first see whether or 
not the witness is going to answer the questions the committee puts 
to him and then see whether or not 

Senator McCarthy. May I sa}' , Mr. Wilkerson, before you will be 
allowed to read a statement, we will want to know whether or not 
you admit or deny you are now a member of the Communist Party, 
or whether you have been. We have followed the practice of not 
taking any lectures from anyone who will not tell us whether he is 
a Communist today, because if he says he cannot answer that because 
a truthful answer might incriminate him, that is the same as saying he 
is a member of the party. So after we get down to the question of 
your communism, if any, we will take up the question of the statement. 

1 nuiy say, do not interpret that to mean we will not let a Communist 
read a statement. Anyone that comes here and says, "I am a member 
of the Communist Party," as far as I am concerned, he can say what- 
ever he cai-es to say. Anyone who comes and says, "I am not a mem- 
ber," can read any statement he cares to make. But when an individual 
comes here and says, "I am afraid to tell you the truth for fear I 
might go to jail, I won't tell you whether I am a Communist or not," 
and refuses to give the information to the committee, then we don't 
hear any statements from him. So we will get to that. 

First I would like to ask this question, if I may : During the last 

2 years, 3 years, from time to time, people have said, "Well, let the 
FBI clean out the Government." Those people have said, "McCarthy, 
you are interfering with the workings of the FBI." I have used you 
as an example of why the FBI couldn't clean out the Government. 
Let's review some of the things I have stated. They were called irre- 
sponsible at the time, and I wonder whether or not they are the truth. 
You can tell us. They are about you. 

Mr. Wilkerson. May I, Mr. Senator 

Senator McCarthy. Let me finish my question. I made the state- 
ment that the FBI had issued a 57-page report on you, that they gave 
that to the Federal Security Agency. That was done on March 7, 
1942, way back in 1942. This investigation, I stated, recorded the 
interviews with people who stated that you were a member of the 
("ommunist Party; that nevertheless the Federal Security Agency — 
will you listen to me, sir? — that despite this FBI report, the Federal 
Security Agency refused to fire you, saying that you were neither 
subversive nor disloyal. You then transferred to the OPA. When 
you resigned from the OPA, within 24 hours you announced you were 
a Communist Party organizer. I pointed out that you were then 
appointed a member of the national committee of the Conmiunist 
Party, and that to be a member of the national committee you had to 
be a member of the Communist Party in good standing for 4 years. 

I used your case as an example of incompetence on the part of the 
administration in power. I used that to show that no matter how 
good a job the FBI did, that Communists still retained positions in 
Government. I would like to ask you whether or not all of those facts 
which I have just recited are true. Would you like me to break them 
down one bj^ one ? I will do it. 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 443 

Mr. WiLKEKsox. The central fact that you have recited is that you 
made those statements. You will have to say whether that is true. 

Senator McCarthy. Were the statements true? 

Mr. AViLKERsox. This is probably the lirst of a whole series of ques- 
tions you will ask that I will not answer. And I think I might as well 
at the outset explain my reasons for it. 

Senator jMcCartht. There is only one reason you can have for not 
answering-. 

Mr. WiEKERSOx. My reason, sir 

Senator McCarthy. There is only one reason we will recognize. 
If you have any other reason you will be ordered to answer. 

Air. Wilk?:rsox. But 

Senator McCarthy. The only reason recognized here is that a 
truthful answer might tend to incriminate you. If you have any 
other reason, we are not interested in it because we do not recognize it. 

Mr. AVilkersox. But what you recognize, sir, and what you are in- 
terested in is your business. The reasons I will not answer your 
question are the following — 

Senator McCarthy. I am not going to listen to your reasons be- 
cause there is only one ground on which you can refuse to answer. 
I am going to ask you these questions. First, how^ long did you work 
for the Government ? 

Mr. AVilkerson. At various times. AAliich post are you thinking 
of^ 

Senator McCarthy. Any post at all. 

Mr. AA'iLKERsox. I was with the Office of Price Administration for, 
I guess, about a year. And some time previously I was with the 
President's Advisory Committee on Education. 

Senator McCarthy. AVill you try and speak a little louder? The 
President's Advisory Commission on what ? 

Mr. AA'iLKERsox. Committee on Education. I should judge about 
a year. 

Senator McCarthy. Yes. And do you recall what year you were 
with OPA and wliat year you were with the President's Advisory 
Connnission? 

Mr. AA^iLKERSON. It was OPA and I was with them during 1042 
and 1943. 

Senator McCarthy. And then you were on the President's Advisory 
Commission or committee in what year? 

Mr. AA'^iLKERSox. I was not a member of the committee, I was re- 
search associate for the conunittee. 

Senator McCarthy. AA^hat year? 

Mr. AA^iLKERSox. That was around 1988-39, approxinuite dates. 

Senator McCarthy. And what other jobs have you held with any 
Government agency ? 

Mr. AA^iLKERsox. I haven't been employed in any other Government 

agencv. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you work with the Federal Security 

Agency ? 

Mr. AA^iLKERSox. No. 

Senator McCarthy. At no time? 

Mr. AA^H.KERSox. No. I have worked at an institution which has 
some relationships there. 



444 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 

Senator McCarthy. You worked with an institution which has 
some relationships with the FSA? What institution was that? 

Mr. WiLKERSoN. Howard University. 

Senator McCarthy. Howard University. And were you doing 
work for the FSA at that time? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I was employed by Howard University. 

Senator McCarthy. Were you doing work for the FSA at that 
time? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. Not to my knowledge. 

Senator McCarthy. Not to your knowledge. Is your testimony 
that you worked for only two Government agencies, OPxl and you 
were research adviser to the President's commission; is that correct? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. That is all I can recall. 

Senator McCarthy. Who appointed you to the OPA? 

Mr. WiLiiERSON. I don't know. 

Senator McCarthy. Is it correct that you were accused of being 
a member of the Communist Party while you were working for the 
Government ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. That I was accused, by whom ? 

Senator McCarthy. I am not asking you now whether you were, I 
am asking you whether you were accused of being a member of the 
Communist Party. 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I suspect that is correct. I have been accused on 
many occasions by many bodies. 

Senator McCarthy. Was that the subject of a hearing by a Gov- 
ernment agency ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. It was. 

Senator McCarthy. And did you appear to testify ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I did. 

Senator McCarthy. Were you under oath ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I was. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you deny that you were a member of the 
Communist Party ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I refuse to answer that question for the following 
reasons 

Senator McCarthy. You are only entitled to one reason and that 
is if you feel the answer might incriminate you. Otherwise you will 
be ordered to answer. 

Mr. WiLKERSON. The reasons that I refuse to answer the question 
are that as an educator I 

Senator McCarthy. You are entitled to — you will only — we will 
have none of that, now. You are entitled to refuse to answer only 
on the ground the answer might tend to incriminate you. 

Mr. WiLKERSON. AVhy is that I cannot explain to this committee 
why I will not answer your question ? 

Senator McCarthy. We are not going to let any Communists use 
this committee as a transmission belt. If you want to tell us — unless 
you label yourself for what you are, if you want to come before the 
committee and frankly admit you are a Communist or if you want to 
deny that you are a Communist, in either case you will be allowed to 
go ahead and give your lecture. Otherwise, we are not going to hear 
any speech from you. 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAIM 445 

Mr. WiLKERSON. Whatever may be 

Senator McCakthy. Answer this question : Are you a member of 
the Communist Party at this moment^ 

]\Ir. Wii.KEKsoN. I refuse to answer that question because I will not 
cooperate with this conmiittee's efforts to subvert academic freedom 
and free inquiry in this country. 

Senator McCarthy. All right. You are ordered to answer the ques- 
tion. If that is your ground, you are ordered to answer the question. 

Mr. WiLKERSOX. Will you let me finish my statement? I refuse — 
in my statement are the reasons I won't answer 3^our question. 

Senator McCarthy. O. K., go ahead. 

Mr. WiLKERSox. I refuse to cooperate with your efforts to burn 
the books, to suppress free speech, free association, and to undermine 
thereby the basic democratic freedoms of our country. I refuse also 
on the grounds of Uiv privilege under the fifth amencbiient not to be 
a witness against myself. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you feel that if you told us the truth about 
whether or not you are a Communist today, that that truthful answer 
might tend to incriminate you? 

Mr. WiLivERsoN. Within the framework of this committee's opera- 
tions and many related things in our society, I think the answer to 
that question is yes. 

Senator McCarthy. Xot within the framework of the committee. 
This committee has no criminal jurisdiction. 

Mr. WiLKERSON. No, but it has considerable influence. 

Senator McCarthy. Under our criminal laws, the criminal laws 
as they are today, regardless of whether ^'ou like them or not, do you 
feel that if you told us the truth as to whether or not you are a Com- 
munist today, that truthful answer might tend to incriminate you? 

]Mr. WiLKERSON. I think if I answered your question yes or no, that 
either answer within the framework of today's developments might 
provide a link by which I could be somehow or other framed and 
brought before a criminal proceedings. 

Senator McCarthy. In other words, you are refusing to answer 
because you fear 3'ou might be framed? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I refuse to answer because I invoke my fifth 
amendment privilege not to be a witness against myself. 

Senator ^SIcCartjiy. All right, I will ask you the question again, 
just so you fully understand this. I have explained this over and over 
again to witnesses. You cannot refuse to answer because perjury 
might result in your incrimination. You can refuse to answer only 
if you honestly feel that the truth, the truth, would incriminate you. 
My question is, do you feel that a truthful answer to this question of 
whether or not you are a Communist today might tend to incriminate 
you ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. My answer remains. I refuse to answer the ques- 
tion on the basis of my privilege not to serve as a witness against 
myself. 

Senator McCarthy. You are ordered to answer that question. 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I am ordered to answer what question? 

Senator McCarthy. The one I just asked you. 

Mr. WiLKERSON. Do you want to state the question again? 

^3616— 53— pt. 7 5 



446 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAISI 

Senator McCarthy. I will be glad to. Mr. Reporter, will you read 
the question to the witness ? 

(The reporter read from his notes as requested.) 
(The witness consulted with his counsel.) 

Mr. WiLKERSoN. As I stated before, in the present context my 
answer to that question is yes. I will state also as a part of that 
response, however, that contrary to your interpretation it is pretty 
well established that the fifth amendment serves and was designed to 
serve to protect not only the guilty but the innocent. 

Senator McCarthy. You are wrong on that. The innocent do not 
need the protection of the fifth amendment. The fifth amendment 
is to protect a man who is guilty of a crime. It provides that he need 
not convict himself by his own testimony. That is the purpose of 
the fifth amendment. If you are not a Communist, you see, as of 
today, then you would say "No'' and that truthful answer could not 
incriminate you. When you tell this connnittee that the truth would 
incriminate you, that means to this committee, and I think to the 
world, that you are a member of the Communist conspiracy. I am 
going to ask you several other questions. I am going to refer to the 
statements which were referred to as irresponsible at the time, and a 
smear upon you, and you have a chance now under oath to tell us 
whether they were truthful or not. 

Mr. WiLKERsoN. These are statements that were — I didn't get your 
first statement. 

Senator McCarthy. I will ask you the question. No. 1, after you 
left Government, did you immediately become a Communist Party 
organizer within a matter of 24 hours? 

Mr. Wn.KERsoN. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of 
my rights under the first amendment and my privilege under the 
fifth. 

Senator McCarthy. You refuse to answer on the grounds that the 
truthful answer might tend to incriminate you; is that correct i' 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I refuse to answer for the reasons I stated. 

Senator McCarthy^. The first amendment has nothing to do with 
your appearance here today. The first amendment gives you the right 
of free speech and free activity. You have the right to say whatever 
you want to wherever you want to say it, as long as you do not advocate 
the overthrow of this Government by force and violence. No one is 
trying to abrogate that right. 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I am here because I use my exercise under the first 
amendment. 

Senator McCarthy. You will please not interrupt. You are here 
today because we find that the old State Department is purchasing 
your books, spreading them throughout the world at taxpayere' ex- 
pense, allegedly for the purpose of fighting communism. Whether 
that is a correct or an incorrect fact is the concern of the Congress and 
the American people. We have you here to find out whether or not 
you are the type of author whose works should be used in a worldwide 
fight against communism. 

Mr. WiLKERSON. May I ask what books of mine ? 

Senator McCarthy. You have a right under the first amendment to 
write any book you care to. Anyone who cares to buy that can buy 
it, any American or any European. We are not talking about that. 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 447 

We are talking about purchasing that book at the taxpayers' expense, 
and putting it in a United States library. You will be allowed to 
refuse, again, only if j'ou feel that a truthful answer might tend to 
incriminate you. 

Mr. WiLKEESox. May I ask what book of mine? 

Senator McCarthy. I will reask the question. "Within 24 hours 
after you left Government employ, did you announce that j^our new 
job was "A Conununist Party organizer'- ^ 

Mr. WiLKERsox. 1 refuse to answer the question for the reasons 
stated. 

Senator McCarthy. You will state the reason. 

^Ir. WiLKERSoN. My rights mider the first amendment and my 
privilege under the fifth amendment. 

Senator McCarthy. You feel that a truthful answer might tend to 
incriminate you ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. Not in the narrow sense which you seek to imply. 

Senator McCarthy. In what sense, then? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. But within the framework of what is happening 
in our country now, within the framework of the operation of this 
connnittee's work, within the framework of certain legal proceedings 
which are on in our country, the answer to that question is yes. 

Senator McCarthy. Well, we will narrow it down. Under our 
present criminal laws, do you feel that a truthful answer might tend 
to incriminate you? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. Quite possibly it might. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you feel that it might tend to incriminate 
you? 

^h\ WiLKERSON. My answer is jes. 

Senator McCarthy. All right. Then you are entitled to refuse 
to answer. Question No. 2 : Were you then appointed a member of 
the national committee of the Communist Party? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. For the reasons stated, I refuse to answer your 
question. 

Senator McCarthy, (^n the ground that a truthful answer might 
rend to iiicriniinate you ( 

Mr. WiLKKRsox. On tlie basis of my rights under tlie lirst amend- 
ment and my privilege under the fifth. 

Senator McCarthy. I am going to spend a lot of tinie here if 
necessary to make sure you use this privilege properly. So you can 
make up your mind that you will answer each one of these questions. 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I am in no hurry, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. Even if we stay here until late tonight. Are 
you refusing because you feel that a truthful answer might tend to 
incriminate you? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I am refusing because, in the first place, you are 
inquiring into things which I think this conunittee or no connnittee 
of Congress has any right to inquire into. This is why I assert the 
first amendment, t am refusing second, because within the frame- 
work of what is developing in our society today, the persecution of 
people because of what thev believe, what they teach, what they 
advocate, the prosecution of such people, for me to answer that 
question would be for me to serve as a possible witness against myself 
which I invoke my privilege and do not do. 



448 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 

Senator McCarthy, Do you feel it is improper to prosecute in our 
criminal courts people who advocate the overthrow of this Govern- 
ment by force and violence ? Do you feel that is improper ? 

Mr. WiLKERSOX. You presumably are referring to the Smith Act 
prosecutions. 

Senator McCarthy. I asked you a very simple question. Do you 
understand the question ^ 

Mv. Wn^KERSoN, Yes, I imderstand the question. 

Senator McCarthy. Will you answer it? 

Mr. WhiKERSOx. People who advocate overthrowing the Govern- 
ment by force and violence, I think it would be proper. 

Senator McCarthy. You think it would be proper to prosecute 
them !* 

Mr. WiLKERSOx. Yes. At the same time that I say that 

Senator McCarthy. Do you think it is proper to ask a man whether 
or not he has belonged to an organization which has advocated the 
overthrow of this Government by force and violence ? 

Mr. WiLKKRSox. Not under these circumstances, no. 

Senator McCarthy. You do not think it is proper? 

Mr. AViLKERsox. No. 

Senator McCarthy. In other words, you think it is pioper to prose- 
cute a man who advocates the overthrow of this Government by force 
and violence, but don't think the Congress should ask a man whether 
he advocates tlie overthrow of the Government by force and violence? 

Mr. WiLitERsox. Will you pardon me a moment because I may want 
to revise a statement I made to you a moment ago? 

Senator McCarthy. You may do that. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I should like, if I may, to go back to an earlier 
question, if I may. 

Senator McCarthy. You may do that. 

Mr. WiLKERsox. It was concerning the prosecution of people who 
advocate. 

Senator McC.vin hy. Not persecution, prosecution. 

INIr. AVii^KEusdx. I said prosecution. Not persecution, but prosecu- 
tion. 

Senator McCarthyi Let us restrict it to prosecution in our criminal 
courts. 

Mr. WiLKERSOX. All right. I believe I said "Yes" in answer to 
your question. 

Senator McCarthy. You did. 

Mr. WiLKERSOX. I think I should like to revise that statement. I 
think anyone who participates in the actual seeking to overthrow the 
Government of our country by force and violence, by all means should 
be prosecuted. There are no such prosecutions under way in oiir coun- 
try now. It is for teaching an advocacy that people are now being 
prosecuted and that I certainly do not think is a proper prosecution 

Senator McCarthy. In other words, you think it is improper to 
prosecute anyone who teaches that we should overthrow this Govern- 
ment by force and violence ? 

Mr. WiLKERSOX. I think that teaching and advocacy, as Justice 
Black, incidentally also believes, are areas which no governmental 
agency has a right to interfere. 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION" PROGRAM 449 

Senator AIcCakthy. Did you say Black or Douglas? 

Mr. WiLKEESox. Black and Douglas. 

Senator McCarthy. In other words, you say today that you feel 
that you have the right to teach and advocate the overthrow of the 
Government by force and violence, you think you have that right? 

Mr. WiLKERsoN. I think I have the right *to teach and advocate 
anything that I believe. 

Senator McCarthy. How long have you taught ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I have been teaching for more than a quarter of 
a centur}'. 

Senator McCarthy. And have you taught your students that it 
was proper and desirable to overthrow this Government by force and 
violence? 

Mr. WiLKERSOX. No. 

Senator McCarthy. Have you ever advocated the overthrow of 
tliis Government by force and violence? 

Mr. WiLKERsox. I haA'e not. 

Senator McCarthy. Have you attended Communist cell meetings 
where that was advocated ? 

Mr. WiLKERSOx. That question I refuse to answer on the bases 
previously stated. 

Senator McCarthy. Where do you work now ? 

Mr. WiLKERSox. That question, too, I refuse to answer, and in 
doing so, I want it to be clear that my association, my political opin- 
ions, are things of which I am not ashamed, indeed t proclaim them 
to the world. Within the framework of this committee's operations, 
liowever. I think for me to answer that question would jeopardize 
me. and I refuse to do so on the bases ]^reA-iously stated. 

Senator INIcCarthv. On the ground that a truthful answer might 
tend to incriminate you ? 

Mr. WiLKERSOX. On the basis of my rights under the first amend- 
ment and my privilege under the fifth. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you feel if you told us where you were — 
let's frame the question differently. Are j^ou in the pay of the Com- 
munist Party as of today? 

Mr. Wir.KERsox. I refuse to answer the question for the reasons 
stated. 

Senator McCarthy. You feel if you told us the truth as to whether 
or not you are on the payroll of the Communist Party this moment, 
that truthful answer might tend to incriminate you? 

]Mr. WiLKERsox. Within the framework that I explained before, 
yes. 

Senator McCarthy. The only framework we are concerned about 
is America's criminal laws, regardless of whether you like them or not. 

Mr. WiLKERSON. And the present interpretation of those laws ; yes. 

Senator McCarthy. And the interpretation of the laws by our 
authorities. 

Mr. WiLKERsoN. I answered your question. 

Senator McCarthy. Your answer is. Were you to tell us whether 
or not you were on the payroll of the Communist Party as of this 
moment, and if 3^ou told us the truth, that truthful answer might tend 
to incriminate you? 

Mr. WiLKERSox^. I think if I gave you any answer it might be used 
in criminal proceedings against me. 



450 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 

Senator McCarthy. We are not concerned about a perjury. Nat- 
urally that would incriminate you. The question is, If you gave us a 
truthful answer, do you feel that would tend to incriminate you 'i 

Mr. WiLKERsoN. I stand by the explanation I have given, Senator. 

Senator McCartiit. You will answer the question : Do you feel 
that if you gave a truthful answer to the question as to whether or 
]iot you are on the payroll of the Communist Party, that that truthful 
answer would tend to incriminate you? 

You will be ordered to answer that question. 

(The witness consulted with his counsel.) 

Mr. WiLKERSOx. I stand by the answer I have given you 5 or 6 
times, Senator, that within the present context it is my feeling that 
the answer, any answer to that question, would be — might be — used in 
criminal proceedings against me. 

Senator McCartiit. Then you will be ordered to answer the ques- 
tion. It is only if jou feel that a truthful answer might tend to in- 
criminate you. You see, you have a right under the fifth amendment 
to not incriminate vourself bv a truthful answer. You have no right 
to refuse to incriminate yourself by perjury. So before we can deter- 
mine whether or not you have the right to refuse to answer the ques- 
tion, I must have from you the very simple answer as to whether or not 
you feel that a truthful answer would tend to incriminate you. If 
you so feel, you can refuse to answer the other question. If not, you 
will be ordered to answer. 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I want to point out that I have said nothing about 
perjury. You have, Senator. 

Senator McCarthy. That is right, I have. 

Mr. Wilkersox. I have also said and continue to say — there is one 
other thing, by the wa.j : As I understand the fifth amendment, it is 
a privilege which properly can be invoked if the answering of a ques- 
tion would lead to criminal prosecution. Within the framework of 
what is developing in our society, my answer, and with that under- 
standing, my answer to your question is "Yes." 

Senator MCartht. Is that yes, a truthful answer might tend to 
incriminate you ? 

Mr. Wilkersox. My answer is that any answer would tend to in- 
criminate me, which must include a truthful answer. 

Senator McCarthy. Naturally, perjury would tend to incriminate 
you. Naturally it would. The privilege does not extend to your 
coming here and conunitting perjury. 

The privilege only extends where j'ou say that telling the truth, 
giving the facts, might tend to incriminate you. Is it 3^our testimony 
that a truthful answer might tend to incriminate vou? 

Mr. Wilkersox. I think I have answered your question a number 
of times. 

Senator McCarthy. Well, you will answer it again. I haven't 
heard the answer yet. 

JNIr. Wilkersox. The answer is that within the framework of devel- 
opments in our society now, including the operations of this committee, 
"Yes." 

Senator McCarthy. All right, then, you are entitled to refuse to 
answer. Let me ask you this : Do you think that your books would be 
effective in our overseas libraries to combat communism ? 



STATE DEPARTMENT mFORMATION PROGRAM 451 

Mr. WiLKERSox. What books are yon talking about? 

Senator McCAirniT. Any of your books. 

Mr. WiLKERsoN. I wish you Avonlcl specify your question. You are 
referring to Avhat books? 

Senator McCarthy. Can you name any one of your books that 
"would, you think, be effective in combating communism ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I would like to react to your question concerning 
books in overseas libraries, and I presume j^ou know what book you 
are talking about. May I know what book you are talking about? 

Senator McCarthy. I am asking you whether you have ever written 
a book that you think would effectively combat communism. 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I have never written a book for the purpose of com- 
bating communism. 

Senator ISIcCarthy. Have you ever written one that you think 
would effectively combat communism, regardless of the purpose? 

Mr. Wtlkf.r^on^. I haven't been interested in combating communism. 

Senator McCarthy. I assume you haven't been. Have j-ou been 
interested in furthering the cause of communism ? 

]Mr. WiLKERSON. That question I refuse to answer for the reasons 
stated. 

Senator McCarthy. Do your writings in your opinion tend to 
further the cause of communism ? 

Mr. Wn^ivERSOx. One book that I think was referred to here, Special 
Problems of Negro Education, is a book which analyzes the horrible 
discriminations against Negroes in education in our country. It was 
written at the request of the Federal Government, and it pictures in 
all of the Southern States the unequal educational conditions affecting 
Negroes. It made recommendations to the Federal Government with 
reference to — Are you listening. Senator? 

Senator McCarthy. Go ahead. 

?.Ir. WiEKERSox. I will wait until you are ready. 

Senator McCarthy. I am listening, proceed. Proceed. 

Mr. WiLKERSON. It made recommendations to the Federal Govern- 
ment for the administration of Federal funds in a way which is not 
discriminatory concerning Negi-o schools. There is nothing about 
communism in the book. It is an analysis of a feature of American 
democracy, one which I think certainly weakens American democ- 
racy. But its relevance to the defeat of communism, if one is inter- 
ested in this, I don't see. 

Senator IMcCarthy. Will you answer my question now ? 

The question is, Have you ever written a book which you think could 
be used in combating communism ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. The uses to which anything that I have written 
might be put, I don't know. I have never written a book which, in 
my opinion, served the purpose of fighting communism. 

Senator McCarthy. Have some of your books been printed in the 
Government Printing Office ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON, One has. 

Seiuitor McCarthy. One has. Wlio arranged to have that printed 
in the Government Printing Office ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. The President's Advisory Committee on Edu- 
cation. 

Senator McCarthy. AVhen you were in Government, did you know 
Alger Hiss? 



452 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAIVI 

Mr, WiLKERsoN. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of my 
rights and privileges under the first and fifth amendments. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you attend Communist meetings at which 
Alger Hiss was also present ? 

Mr. WiLKERsoN. For the reasons stated, 1 refuse to answer your 
question. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you know Owen Lattimore ? 

Mr. WiLiiERSON, I refuse to answer for the reasons stated. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you ever attend a meeting in Baltimore, 
a Communist cell meeting, at which Owen Lattimore and Mrs. Owen 
Lattimore were both present ? 

Mr. Wn^KERsoN. Again, on the grounds stated, I refuse to answer 
your question. 

Senator McCarthy. On the ground that a truthful answer might 
tend to incriminate you ? 

Mr. WiEKEESON. My reasons for refusing to answer are, first, that 
you have no right to inquire into my associations, opinions, or what 
have you. Whetlier you recognize this or not is one of the reasons I 
don't answer, my rights under the first amendment. I refuse, second, 
on the basis of my privilege under the fifth amendment not to be a 
witness against myself. 

Senator McCarthy. Is it your testimony that if you were to tell us 
the truth as to whether or not you went to Baltimore and attended a 
Communist cell meeting at which Owen Lattimore and INIrs. Lattimore 
were both present, that a truthful answer might tend to incriminate 
you i 

Mr. WiLKERSON. Within the framework of my previous explanation, 
yes. 

Senator McCarthy. May I ask counsel, has it been established that 
this man's works have been purchased by the old State Department 
and are in a number of our information centers ; is that correct ? 

Mr. ScHiNE. We have found that to be established by information 
given to us by the State Department, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator McCarthy. And that has been confirmed by contacting the 
State Department? 

Mr. ScHiNE. Yes, sir ; it has. 

Mr. WiLKERSON. Is it implied here, Senator, that there is something 
about a book on Negro education that is subversive? 

Senator McCarthy. We will ask the questions. 

The books by a man who is a member of the National Committee of 
the Commmiist Party, who says he doesn't know of any book that could 
be used to combat communism, may possibly not be the type of books 
that the taxpayers 

]Mr. WiLKERSON. If you are concerned with the book, why don't you 
talk about the book or let me talk about it ? 

Senator McCarthy. We will let counsel do that. 

Mr. CoiiN. I want to ask you a few questions with respect to that 
book. While you were writing that, were you in consultation with any 
members of the Communist Party about the book ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. You are not asking me about the book. 

Senator McCarthy. Answer the question. 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I will answer the question, but I should like also 
to insist if you are concerned with that book on Negro education, let's 
see what is wrons: with it. 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 453 

Mr. CoHN. Would j'ou mind answering the question, Mr. Wilkersoii I 

Mr. WiLKERSON. Your question I will refuse to answer on the 
grounds previously stated. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you submit the manuscript of what you wrote 
towards that book to the Communist Party headquarters before that 
manuscript was submitted to the Government office ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I will answer that question, no. 

Mr. CoHN, Did you submit it to the cultural commission of the 
Communist Party or any member of that commission ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. No. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you consult with any of the top leadership of the 
Communist Party concerning anything in that manuscript ? 

Mr. Wile:erson. No. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you consult with any member of the Communist 
Party concerning anything in that manuscript ? 

Mr. Wilkersox. I am not sure of the answer to that question. In- 
deed, I think I better invoke my privilege on tluit question because 
whether anybody I talked with concerning that book was a member 
of the Communist Party, I don't know. 

Mr. CoHN. You have no recollection as to whether anyone was or 
was not, is that it? 

Mr. Wilkerson. I have no recollection of talking with any mem- 
ber or leader of the Communist Party about that book. 

Mr. CoHN. May I have the first question and answer which I asked 
this witness in this series read? 

Senator McCarthy. May I ask counsel, I understand you have read 
the book. Is it correct that the book is a bitter condemnation of 
America, pointing out that we have tremendous racial prejudices, dis- 
crimination against minorities, is that the type? 

Mr. CoHN. Yes, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator McCarthy. I would like to know whether the whole tenor 
of the book is a condemnation of the American society. 

Mr. CoHN. I think that would be a fair construction, which any- 
one will get from reading it. 

Mr. WiLKERSox. I will have to object to that characterization. It 
is a distortion. What that book does is objectively, witliout any bit- 
terness, without any bitterness that would be fully warranted by the 
facts, quite objectively to analyze what are the conditions under which 
the Negroes go to school in the South, and to set forth the facts 
objectively. 

Now, it may be bitter condemnation of American society to discrim- 
inate against Negroes in education as they do. But to call a descrip- 
tion of that situation a condemnation of American society is a dis- 
tortion. Indeed it would help American society to know tliese things. 

Senator McCarthy. At the time you wrote that book, was it the 
Communist Party line to urge that we were discriminating against 
Negroes, they were being unfairly treated and that the treatment of 
minorities in the Soviet Union was much better, was that the Com- 
munist line? 

Mr. Wilkersox. I have been condemning the discriminations 
against Negro education long before I ever heard of the Connnunist 
P^uty. 

Senator McCarthy. Was that the Connnunist line at that time? 

Mr. Wilkersox. I don't know Avliat the Communist line was on 
that subject. 



454 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 

SeuMlor McCarthy. You don't know? 

Mr. WlLKKR803Sr. No. 

Senator McCarthy. Were vou a member of the Communist party 
then? 

Mr. AViLKEKi^oN. I refuse to ansAver that question for the reasons 
stated. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you discuss what the Communist line was 
at cell meetings at tliat time ? 

Mr, WiLKKRsox. For the reasons stated I refuse to answer your 
question. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you discuss at any cell meetings the fact 
that you were writing a book dealing with America's discrimination 
against minorities? 

Mr. WiLKEKsoN. For the reasons stated I refuse to answer the 
question. 

Senator McCarthy. Were you under Communist Party discipline 
at that time ? 

Mr. WiLKiRsON. I again refuse for the reasons stated. 

Senator McCarthy. I noticed one of our very able Senators from 
the Jenner committee is here. Would you care to come up to the 
table with us ? 

Senator Welker. No ; this is all right. 

Mr. Cohn. Have you ever taught at Howard University, Mr. 
Wilkerson ? 

Mr, Wilkerson. What is that ? 

Mr. CoHN. Have you ever taught at Howard University ? 

Mr. Wilkerson. I have. 

Mr. CoHN. During what years ? 

Mr. Wilkerson. 1935 to 1943, 1 think it was. 

Mr. CoHN. During that period of time, when you were teaching at 
Howard, were you a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Wilkerson. I refuse to answer your question for the reasons 
stated. 

Mr. CoHN. Did you attend any Communist cell meetings with other 
members of the faculty of Howard at that time ? 

Mr. Wilkerson. The same answer. 

Mr. CoHN. Are you at thi? moment a teacher of various subjects 
dealing with communism and advocating connnunism at the Jell'er- 
son School in New York? 

Mr. AVilkerson, I explained earlier that my political views, my 
present associations, I am quite proud of. 

Mr. Cohn. Then answer the question. 

Mr. Wilkerson. Within tlie framework of this committee's opera- 
tions, however, I invoke my privilege under the fifth amendment and 
refuse to answer your question. 

Mr. Cohn. You refuse to answer the question ? 

Mr. Wilkerson. That is right. 

Mr. Cohn. By the way, are you the same Doxey Wilkerson who 
was a witness for the 11 convicted Communist leaders at the Foley 
Square trial ? 

Mr. Wilkerson. In the pretrial, the jury challenge pointing out 
the discriminatory character of the jury system ; yes. 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 455 

Mr. CoiiN. Did you draAv on any of the materials yon had pre- 
pared when yon prepared this book we have been talking about? 
Mr. WiLKERSOx. In that circumstance ? 
Mr. CoHN. Yes. 

i\Ir. WiLKERSOX. No. 

Mr. CoHN. Do yon use this book, which we are talking about, at 
the Jefferson School to teach your classes there ? 

Mr. WiLKERsoN. I refuse to answer the question for the reasons 
stated previously. 

Mi: CoHx. Have you contributed, did yon contribute any 

Senator McCarthy. Let me ask this question: Is the reading of 
the book which we have just discussed required reading in any of 
the classes at the Jefferson School ? 

Mr. AVilkersox. For the reasons stated, I refuse to answer that 
question. 

Senator McCarthy. Is the Jefferson School a Communist school? 

Mr. Wilkersox. It is general information, Senator, that the Jef- 
ferson School is open to everybody who wants to come. Some hun- 
dred thousand people have come there during the past 10 years to 
enroll and study what they want to. 

Senator McCarthy. You say it is not a Communist-controlled 
school ? 

Mr. WiLicERSox. I say it is a school that is open to everybody that 
wants to come. 

Senator McCarthy. Is it a Communist-controlled school ? 

Mr. Wilkersox. Further than this, I will not go in my answer 
on the basis i)revi()nsly stated. 

Senator McCariuy. You mean if j^ou told us whether or not it is 
a Communist-controlled school, that might tend to incriminate you? 

Mr. AVilkerson. I mean that an answer to that question, within 
the framework of this proceedings, might, yes. 

Senator ]\IcCarthy. Not within the framework of this proceeding, 
but under our criminal law ? 

Mr. Wilkersox. Within the framework of developments of our 
society at that time, people of unorthodox political views. 

Senator McCarthy. You have not stated a sufficient ground for 
refusal to answer. Unless you feel that under our present criminal 
laws a truthful answer to that question might tend to incriminate 
you, yon cannot refuse to miswer. It is a very simple question. Do 
you feel tliat under our present criminal laws, if jon were to tell us 
the trutli, as to whether or not the Jefferson School at which you teach 
is Communist-controlled, that answer might tend to incriminate you ? 

(The witness consulted with his counsel.) 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Counsel, may I suggest that you are very 
close to the microphones. 

Mr. Forer. That is why I asked him to lean more toward me. 

Senator McCarthy. Are you going to answer that, sir? 

Mr. Wilkersox. I think I have answered it several times about 
as well as I can. The interpretation which you seek to place on my 
refusal to answer is one which I do not accept. 

Senator McCarthy. I understood you to say that within the frame- 
work of this committee you refused to answer. The question is. Do 



456 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORIVIATION PROGRAM 

you feel that under our present criminal laws a truthful answer to that 
question might tend to incriminate you ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I think that an answer to that question, in the 
present context of developments in our society, including proceed- 
ings in the court, might be used in criminal prosecutions against me. 

Senator McCarthy. Then you are entitled to refuse to answer. Who 
in Government arranged to have your book printed in the Govern- 
ment Printing Office ? 

Mr. WiLKERsoN. I answered that question. 

Senator McCarthy. Who ? What individual ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. The President's Advisory Committee on Educa- 
tion. 

Senator McCarthy. What individual ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I don't know. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you discuss it with any individual ? 

Mr. Wh^kerson. Discuss what with any individual ? 

Senator McCarthy. Pardon ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. Did I discuss what with any individual ? 

Senator McCarthy. The printing of your book in the Government 
Printing Office. 

Mr. WiLKERSON. The Committee for which I was working, the Pres- 
ident's Advisory Committee. 

Senator McCarthy. Well, let us see. A committee does not have 
a composite voice. What individual discussed that with you, what 
individual on the Committee ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I really don't know. 

Senator McCarthy. You do not remember ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. No. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you know Floyd Reeves ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I don't even know whether it was discussed with 
me as such. 

Senator McC^vrthy. Did you know Floyd Reeves ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. Floyd Reeves was Chairmrai of the Committee. 

Senator McCarthy. Was Reeves a member of the Communist 
Party ^ 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I refuse to answer that question, Senator, on the 
grounds stated. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you ever attend any Communist meetings 
with Reeves ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. Again, for the reasons stated, I refuse to answer 
that question. I think that the asking of a question also under these 
circumstances represents a slander of people that you have no right 
to do, but you are ruling this committee, so I just refuse to answer. 

Senator McCarthy. Well, you see, yesterday we asked you about 
your knowledge of a number of different people. You were very 
select. In the case of some you said "No ; I don't know him." "Yes ; 
I do know him." We get down to people like Alger Hiss and you 
would refuse to answer. So, if there is any slander in any one, you 
are creating the impression. When you say "I refuse to say whetlier 
I attended Communist meetings with any individual," you are creat- 
ing a strong impression that you did because if you did not attend 
such Communist meetings you can very simply say "No ; I did not." 
Reeves was a good friend of yours. If you did not attend Com- 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAIM 457 

munist meetings with him, you should very frankly say "No; I did 
not." I am going to give you a chance, again, to clear the name of 
Eeeves, ^vho was a good friend of yours. 

Mr. WiLKERsoN. I didn't say he was a good friend of mine. 

Senator McCarthy. Well, Avas he a good friend of yours? 

Mr. Wii.KERSox. He was the chairman of the committee that em- 
ployed me. That is all. 

Senator McCarthy. Was he a friend of yours? 

Mr. WiLKERsoN. Friends in terms of a personal, intimate sort; no. 

Senator McCarthy. 1 am not talking about personal intimacy. 
I am asking whether he was a friend of yours. 

Mr. WiLKERSoN. He was not an enemy, he was a chairman of the 
committee with Avhom I worked cooperatively. 

Senator McCarthy. He hired you ? 

Mr.^ WiLKERSON. He employed me, I guess. The committee did. 
1 don't know whether he had anything 

Senator McCarthy. If you can truthfully, without incriminating 
yourself, clear his name, here is your chance. Did you ever attend a 
Communist cell meeting with him ? 

(The witness consulted with his counsel.) 

]Mr. WiLKERsoN. One of the difficulties of this kind of proceedings 
is that it places people in a real dilemma. If they tell the truth, they 
or somebody else might be subjected to unwarranted proceedings. I 
don't want by your distorted interpretations, to have my answers to 
any of these questions reflect on anybody involved. But under the 
circumstances I think I must stand on the answer I gave by refusing 
to answer the question on the grounds previously stated. 

Senator JMcCarthy. Might I say the only dilemma you are in, Mr. 
Wilkerson, is not knowing how much evidence we have. You don't 
know when you can safel}' lie to the committee to clear your friends. 
If you knew that Ave did not have evidence of your cell meetings Avith 
certain individuals, Ave know that you would freely say that they Avere 
not there. That is the only dilemma you have. You see, as long as 
you tell the truth, the truth Avill not incriminate you, you are not in 
any dilenmia. 

I am going to ask you another question. Did you know a man by 
the name of Luther Evans ? 

Mr. WiLKKRSox. Before I answei^ that question. I Avant to make it 
clear that the dilemma I face is not the one Avhich you specify. 

Senator McCarthy. You may proceed. 

Mr. Wilkerson. The dilemma I face is rather one of having seen in 
criminal proceedings and otherAvise in our society, innocent people 
framed by perjurors on the stand as Avitnesses and vaiious other 
means. And it is not simply truthful incidence. 

Senator INIcCartiiy. Name the innocent person Avho was framed on 
the stand, the man you saw framed. You said you saAv innocent 
people framed on the stand. By that do you mean in criminal court \ 

]\Ir. AVilkerson. Yes. 

Senator IMcCarthy. Will you name the individual? 

INIr. WiLKERsox. I liaA'e seen a inimber of leaders of the Connnunist 
Party framed in criminal courts 

Senator McCarthy. How about the 11 ? 

Mr. Wilkerson. By lying witnesses. 



458 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 

Senator McCarthy. You mean that they were not Communists? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. Wlio wasn't Connnunist ? 

Senator McCarthy. Those innocent people that you saw framed. 

Mr. WiLKERsoN. So far as I recall their testimony was that they 
were. I am not sure what they testified. 

Senator McCarthy. And so you are talking about innocent Com- 
munists now who were framed ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. That is right. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you know any innocent non-Communist 
who was framed ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I may, but I think I won't go into speculations on 
that subject. 

Senator McCarthy. Well, you said you knew innocent people who 
were framed. Now you say you know of some Communists, innocent 
Communists, who were framed. The question is, Do you know of any 
non-Communist who was ever framed in our criminal courts? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I think there have been. 

Senator McCarthy. Name one. 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I think that Willie Magee, a Negro from Mis- 
sissippi, who was murdered recently, was framed, and so far as I 
know he was not a Communist. Sacco-Vanzetti 

Senator McCarthy. Let us see now, as far as you know. Unless 
you were a member of the Communist Party, would you have any 
way of knowing? How about the Kosenbergs? Were they framed? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I think so. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you think the 11 top Communists were 
framed ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. Yes. 

Senator McCarthy. Does the Communist Party advocate the over- 
throw of this Government by force and violence? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I understand that it does not. 

Senator McCarthy. You understand that it does not? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. Yes. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you know of any Communist — counsel has 
just suggested an excellent question — do you know of any Communist 
who was properly convicted, who was not framed ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. Convicted of what? 

Senator McCarthy. Well, of anything. You have named Com- 
munists who were framed. I would like to know if you know of a 
single Communist who was properly convicted, if you thinli of one. 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I don't think of one. 

Senator McCarthy. You cannot think of one. I see. 

Did you know Luther Evans? 

(The witness consulted with his counsel.) 

Mr. WiLKERSON. Do you mind telling me who Luther Evans is? 

Senator McCarthy. The question is. Did you ever now a Luther 
Evans ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. So far as I know, no. I don't recall such a person. 

Senator McCarthy. Did you ever discuss any of your books with 
a Luther Evans ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. I think I just told you. Senator, that I don't recall 
who Luther Evans is. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you recall discussing your books with a 
Luther Evans? 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATIOX PROGRAM 459 

Mr. WiLKERSoN. It ^yolllcl necessarily follow, I think, would it not? 

Senator McCarthy. I would assume it would. 

Senator Mundt, any questions? 

Senator Mundt. I have only one. 

I think you said that the Communist Party did not believe in the 
overthrow of the Government by force and violence, so far as you 
knew it. That is a rather unique interpretation of the objectives of 
the Connnunist Party. Could you dilate on that source of informa- 
tion that you have, or what makes you say that as you have ? 

Mr. WiLKERsoN. I would be very o;lad to. As I understand, the 
teaching of the Communist Party is that the process of developnu'ut 
of society is one which leads, necessarily, from a capital society in the 
course of history to a Socialist society and ultimately to a Communist 
society. Now, we are dealing here not with back-room conspiracies 
that can be achieved by a plot. Are you following me, Senator? 

Senator McCarthy. Just a minute. 

Mr. WiLKERsox. We are dealing here, rather, with processes of 
growth and development, the same kinds of process that lead from the 
transition from feudal society to capital society. This is something 
that no conspiracy can bring about through force and violence. So- 
cialism can be brought to our country or any country in the world only 
when the society is at the stage which requires its moving to the next 
stage, and when most of the people want that kind of a society. 

Senator Mundt. Would you say that is the way that communism 
was brought to Czechoslovakia ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. There is no communism in Czechoslovakia. It is 
a peo])le's democracy which is building a Socialist society. 

Senator Mundt. AVould you say that is the way the Kerensk}' (lov- 
ernment was superseded by a Communist Government in Russia? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. There was a revolution in Russia, just as we have 
had in this country at 1 or 2 times. 

Senator Mundt. And force and violence. 

Mr. WiLKERSON. There was violence in that revolution as well as 
the American Revolution, and the American Civil War. 

Senator Mundt. Communism got control of Russia through revolu- 
tion, we will agree to that. 

Mr. WiLKERSON. The working class in Russia, so far as T under- 
stand, got control in struggles in which there was involved force and 
violence. 

Senator Mundt. All right. So would you say communism came to 
Poland through this revolutionary process that you mentioned, or was 
there force and violence ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. Your terms are very loose. AVliat do you mean 
b}^ communism ? 

Senator Mundt. I mean the Russian system of govenunent. 

Mr. WiLKERSON. Which is not comnnmisni. It is socialism. 

Senator Mundt. Well, we won't quibble over the term. 

You know what I mean. Let's say the Russian system of govern- 
ment, if you prefer. 

Mr. WiLKERSON. Well, the Russian system of government is not in 
Poland. The Polish system of government is there, and it is quite 
different from the Russian system. 

Senator McCarthy. Ancl is it a people's democracy also? You 
would call that a people's democracy ? 



460 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 

Mr. WiLKERsoN. That is right. 

Senator Mundt. Would you call it a people's democracy in East 
Berlin ? 

Mr. WiLKERsoN. Yes. 

Senator Mundt. Is it not a kind of unique people's democracy that 
employs tanks on the part of the government to smooth down the 
people ? Is that not a sort of strange system for a people's democracy 
to use ? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. This Government has used tanks also against its 
people. 

Senator Mundt. When? 

Mr. WiLKERsoN. The bonus march right out here. 

Senator Mundt. Were the tanks out there shooting down innocent 
people ? 

Mr. WiLKERsoN. That is my recollection. 

Senator Mundt. Were you there ? 

JVIr. WiLKERSON. I wasn't there. I read the newspapers at the time. 

Senator Mundt. That is the first I ever heard that we had tanks 
down there spraying bullets on the people during the bonus march. 
Are you sure you did not get that out of some article in the Daily 
Worker? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. Wliether it was actually tanks or not, I don't 
know. But they were using weapons, and I think that is the important 
point. 

Senator Mundt. We were talking about tanks going down the street 
shooting the people. 

Mr. WiLKERsoN. I think the essential point is weapons of force 
and violence. 

Senator Mundt. Would you say that the movement to put commu- 
nism in Korea is a slow evolutionary process or is there some force 
and violence there on the part of the Communists? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. Force and violence is being used in Korea to tiy 
to check a process of evolutionary development. 

Senator Mundt. Do you mean the Americans are using force and 
violence to stop this peaceful ideological invasion that the Commu- 
nists are bringing down from the north ; is that what you are trying 
to tell us ? 

]Vii\ WiLKERsoN. If you Want to get into the discussion of the 
Korean war 

Senator Mundt. No ; I just want to find out whether the Commu- 
nists are employing force and violence. 

Mr. WiLKERSON. It happens to be a fact that in North Korea there 
was developing a society immeasurably superior in terms of its value 
to the people than what was true in South Korea. It was a society 
in which the masses of the people were actually participating in 
determining their own future. Now, I think a lot of people are begin- 
ning to have some question as to wlio did what first, June 1950, and I 
have my own opinions on the matter. But I have no authority for 
them. 

Senator Mundt. You are about to tell us, I suppose, that in 1950 
the United States started an invasion in the south, and that peaceful 
paradise known as Communist North Korea, is that it? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. There are certain circumstances that suggest tliat 
is not very far from tlie truth. 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 461 

Senator Mundt. I am not interested in this perversion of history, 
Mr. Chairman, but I would certainly conclude that if any of his books 
are being used in the information service of this country to fight com- 
munism, these should be removed. 

Mr. WiLKERsoN. Remember, it is the books on Negro education and 
not Korean wars that you are proposing to be removed. 

Senator McCarthy. One further question: Did you attend Com- 
nnmist meetings at which there was discussed the fact that it was the 
Communist policy to destroy this Government by force and violence ? 
Did you attend Communist meetings where that was discussed ? 

Mr. WiLKERsoN. There it — my answer to the question is that I 
have never attended any meeting which was advocating the overthrow 
of the Government of the United States by force and violence. 

Senator McCarthy. Have you ever attended any Communist meet- 
ing at which that was advocated ? 

Mr. WiLKERsoN. I have attended no meeting at which that was 
advocated. 

Senator McCarthy. Either Communist or otherwise? 

Mr. WiLKERsoN. Any meeting. 

Senator McCarthy. Neither Communist nor otherwise ? 

Mr. WiLKERsoN. That would include any meeting, would it not ? 

Senator McCarthy. Have you ever traveled abroad ? 

Mr. Wilkerson. I think I crossed the Canadian border once to 
see Niagara Falls. 

Senator McCarthy. You were never off the North American Con- 
tinent? 

Mr. WiLKERSON. No. 

Senator McCarthy. Senator Welker, have you any questions ? 

Senator Welker. I have no questions, thank you. 

Senator McCarthy. Senator Mundt, anything else ? 

Senator Mundt. No questions. 

Senator McCarthy. You may step down. 

I may say for the record at this point that one of the purposes 
of bringing Mr. Wilkerson here was to show another typical author 
whose works under no circumstances should be used in our informa- 
tion centers abroad. Here we have a man who was in the National 
Committee of the Communist Party, who wrote a book that went right 
down the party line condemning America because of alleged racial 
discrimination, exaggerating any discrimination there might be at 
tremendous lengths. We find tliat book being purchased by the old 
State Department, and distributed throughout the world to show how 
superior America is to the Russian system. Frankly, I do not care 
what they do with his book after they remove it, whether they burn 
it or not. I can see no objection to destroying it. I do not think it 
should be stored at Government expense. 

Senator Mundt. Mr. Chairman, may I say that I am happy to see 
used the term which is completely accurate, our American infor- 
mation centers abroad, because there has been a disposition on the part 
of certain columnists and commentators to try to confuse the issue of 
these hearings by referring to the information centers abroad as 
though they were libraries. But what we were establishing were 
American reading rooms, information centers. We never had any re- 
mote intention of providing a system of libraries all over the world 



462 STATE DEPARTMENT mFORMATION PROGRAM 

supported by American taxpayers to provide a complete depository for 
all printed books in foreign cities. We did have the intention, and the 
law specifically provides, that the taxpayers' money shall be used for 
information centers abroad, American reading rooms, American infor- 
mation centers, as part of the program to carry the American story to 
foreign people, I think the people that comment on these hearings 
should keep that in mind. And I point out that Dorothy Thompson in 
yesterday's newspaper did a very thorough job and a very splendid 
job in pointing out the diiference between the library according to 
our concept, and the type of library we are establishing abroad which 
is a part of the information program, which is a reading room, which 
is an information center. I would like to find any person who can say 
that any Communist book has any rightful place in a program of that 
kind set up specifically for the purpose of fighting communism abroad. 

Senator McCarthy. I might say also. Senator, there is I think con- 
siderably deliberately created confusion betAveen teaching communism, 
which I think is certainly proper, to teach what communism is, teach 
the evils of it, and advocating communism by teachings. There is the 
difference between a good American teacher teaching his students what 
communism is so they can recognize the evil, and a Communist pro- 
fessor advocating communism and trying to reach his students to 
follow it. 

I think a great deal of confusion along that line is very deliberate. 

I hope that the press doesn't misunderstand that as any complaint 
about the way these hearings have been covered. I think they have 
been covered very well, veiy honestly, except by the few Daily Worker 
type of papers. 

Senator Mundt. I tJiink, Mr. Chairman, w4th a few notorious and 
a few unhappy exceptions, that there is generally conceded now there 
is a great difference between teaching communism and Communists 
teaching, and that is the thing we are trying to bring out. 

Senator McCarthy. Right. 

We will adjourn until 1 o'clock this afternoon, at which time there 
will be a public hearing in room 357 on the Santa Margarita Waterway. 
That will be at 1 o'clock and will be an open hearing. 

(Whereupon, at 11:45 a. m., the committee was recessed, to recon- 
vene at 1 p. m. the samq day.) 



STATE DEPARTMEiNT INFOEMATION PROGEAM 
INFORMATION CENTERS 



TUESDAY, JULY 7, 1953 

United States Senate, 
Permanent Subcommittee on In\estigations of the 

Committee on Government Operations, 

Washingtmi^ D. C. 

The subcommittee met at 10 : 40 a. m. (pursuant to S. Res. 40, ao:reed 
to January 30, 1953) in tlie caucus room, Senate Office Building, 
Senator Joseph R. McCarth}^ presiding. 

Present: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, AVisconsin; 
Senator Henry M. Jackson, Democrat, Washington; Senator Stuart 
Symington, Democrat, Missouri. 

Present also: J. B. Matthews, executive director; Roy M. Colin, 
chief counsel; G. David Schine, chief consultant; Ruth Young Watt, 
chief clerk. 

Senator McCarthy. The hearing Avill come to order. 

Over the weekend, I note that some of the Senators have disagreed 
with an article Avritten by our executive director, Dr. Matthews here, 
and the}' have asked that we have a meeting so we can discuss his 
article. I have set 3 o'clock this afternoon for the meeting. 

May I say tliis article was written before Mr. Matthews came with 
the committee. Therefore, it expresses Dr. Matthews' opinions and, 
of course, does not represent any thinking on the pait of the com- 
mittee because it was written purely from Dr. Matthews" information. 
I do not believe he used any of our connnittee files in connection with 
this. Did you, Doctor? 

Mr. Matthews. Xo, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. It has to do with the possible infiltration of 
the clergy by Communists. I may say I have never made a study of 
this matter. I know practically nothing about it. I do not intend to 
make a study of it. 1 would like to suggest to the Senators, however, 
all those who are on the committee, that before the meeting this after- 
noon they read another article which Dr. Mattliews has also written 
before he came with the committee. It is entitled ''Comnninism and 
the New Deal." This is not on the newstand yet. 1 have a copy of 
it here. I am going to ask counsel to make photostats and give all the 
Senators copies of it. And also the other article that Dr. Matthews 
wrote on the infiltration of the teaching profession by Communists 
and also another article entitled "Connnunists in the White House." 

Mr. Mattheavs. Yes. 

Senator McCarthy. I think all Senators should read all of those 
articles so we can decide this afternoon whether we shoidd burn the 
articles or burn the authors. 

463 



464 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 

I would like to say also there is no doubt in my mind but what the 
vast majority of the clergy of every religion are good, loyal Americans. 

I may say this is a continuation of the hearings covering the au- 
thors whose books were purchased by the old State Department and 
used in our overseas libraries, allegedly to explain the American way 
of life, and to fight communism. Will you call your first witness, Mr. 
Counsel ? 

Mr. CoHN. Mr, d'Usseau, please. 

TESTIMONY OF AKNAUD d'USSEAU, ACCOMPANIED BY R. W. 
EEANCE, ESQ., NEW YOEK, N. Y.— Kesumed 

Senator McCarthy. You have been sworn, Mr. d'Usseau. You are 
reminded your oath is still in effect. You may sit down. 

For the record, will you identify your counsel ? 

Mr. France. R. W. France, lOi East iOth Street, New York City. 

Mr. CoiiN. Mr. d'Usseau, are you the author of Deep Are the Roots, 
the coauthor of that book ? 

Mr. d'Usseau. I am. I would like to tell you something about that 
play, counsel. 

Mr. CoHN". Just a minute 

Mr. d'Usseau. It is a play about a Negro veteran. We are here to 
discuss books. We are here to discuss books. 

Senator McCarthy. I was not at the executive session this morning, 
but I understand you have a witness here who thinks he can run this 
committee. We will teach him now he cannot. 

Officer, I want you to stand by and I may want this man removed. 

You will answer the questions. When you start giving us any 
speeches, I will ask the committee to hold you in contempt. 

Mr. d'Usseau. Are we here to discuss books? 

Senator McCarthy. We are here to have you answer the questions. 
Do you understand that? You will answer counsel's questions. 

I may say, after you have answered the questions you will be given 
an opportunity to make any statement you want to on one condition, 
and that is that you either tell us that you are or are not a Communist. 
We do not allow people who come here and refuse to say whether they 
are Communists on the .grounds that it would incriminate them, to use 
this committee as a transmission belt. You will now answer the 
questions that counsel asks you. 

Mr. CoHN. Is that work' in use, has it been purchased by the old 
team in the State Department? Is it in use in overseas foreign 
centers ? 

Mr. ScHiNE. According to our information, it is, from the State 
Department. 

Mr. CoHN". Doctor? 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. d'Usseau, are you a member of the Commu- 
nist Party ? 

Mr. d'Usseau. I refuse to answer that on the basis of the fifth 
amendment. 

Mr. Matthe^vs. On the ground that your answer, if truthful, 
would tend to incriminate you ? 

Mr. d'Usseau. Might tend to incriminate me, yes. 

Mr. Matthews. When you wrote the play as coauthor of Deep 
Are the Roots, were you a member of the Communist Party? 



STATE DEPARTMENT IXFORIMATION PROGRAM 465 

Mr. d'Usseau. I refuse to answer that on the basis of the fifth 
amendment. 

Mr. Matthews. Was your coauthor, the late James Gow, a mem- 
ber of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. d'Usseau. I refuse to answer that on tlie basis of the fifth 
amendment. 

Senator McCarthy. May I interrupt and say to the witness if you 
object to having flash pictures taken when you are testifying, if they 
bother you, they will not be taken while you are testifying. 

Mr. d'Usseau. I have nothing to hide. I don't mind. 

Senator McCarthy. All right, you may continue. 

Mr. M1\tthews. Will you please spell your full name? 

]VIr. d'Usseau. A-r-n-a-u-d d'U-s-s-e-a-u. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. d'Usseau, have you ever contributed to the 
Communist Party? 

Mr. d'Usseau. I refuse to answer that on the basis of the fifth 
amendment. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you receive royalties for your play, Deep 
Are the Roots ? 

Mr. d'Usseau. Would you please rephrase that question? 

Mr. Matthews. Did you receive royalties for your play Deep 
Are the Eoots ? 

Mr. d'Usseau. Naturally I received royalties. I am a professional 
writer. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you contribute any portion of those royalties 
to the Communist Party ? 

Mr. d'Usseau. I refuse to answer that on the basis of the fifth 
amendment. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you been identified in sworn testimony 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Matthews, may 1 suggest when the wit- 
ness says on the basis of the fifth amendment, that may not mean too 
much to a great number of people. I think it should be made clear 
that he is refusing to answer on the ground that if he told the truth, 
a truthful answer might tend to incriminate him. 

Mr. d'Usseau. Tliis is the Senator's interpretation of the fifth 
amendment. My interpretation is that it is in the Constitution and 
it was put there as all the other nmendments were, to protect me. 

Senator McCarthy. Let me ask you the question : Do you feel that 
if you gave a truthful answer to Mr. Matthews' question that that 
truthful answer might tend to incriminate you? 

Mr. d'Usseau. Senator, your use of the words and mine are entirely 
different. I will use the phrase "I refuse to answer on the basis of the 
fifth amendment on the basis that it would tend to incriminate me." 

Senator McCarthy. I am going to ask the question over : Counsel 
has just asked you a question, and you refused to answer. You are 
entitled to refuse if you feel that a truthful answer — I will suggest 
you listen to this, as it may concern some of your time. As I started 
to say, counsel has asked you a question ; you refused to answer that 
question. You are entitled to refuse to answer if you feel that a 
truthful answer to that question might tend to incriminate you. You 
are not entitled to refuse if perjury would incriminate you. There- 
fore, before w^e can determine whether or not you have the right to 
refuse under the fifth amendment, I must ask you the simple question, 
Do you feel that a truthful answer to Dr. Matthews' question might 



466 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 

tend to incriminate you ? And you are ordered to answer that ques- 
tion. 

Mr. d'Usseau. A point of clarification, Senator. Is the word "truth- 
ful" in the fifth amendment to the Constitution? 

Senator McCarthy. I am asking the questions now. You will 
answer that question. 

Mr. d'Usseau. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amend- 
ment. 

Senator McCarthy. You are ordered to answer. 

IVIr. d'Usseau. On the basis that it might tend to incriminate me. 

Senator McCarthy. You are ordered to answer whether or not you 
feel that a truthful answer would tend to incriminate you. 

Mr. d'Usseau. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amend- 
ment, on the basis that it might tend to incriminate me. 

Senator McCarthy. Well, just so we have the record clear now, 
because we want to submit this to the conunittee, will you ask your 
question again. Doctor, any one of the questions you asked, whether 
he is a Communist today, whether he was a Communist at the time he 
wrote the book, whether his coauthor was a Communist. It makes 
no difference. 

Mr. JVLvtthews. The last question was, Was the late James Gow, 
your coauthor, a member of the Communist Party ? 

(The witness consulted with his counsel.) 

Mr. d'Usseau. I refuse to answer that on the basis that a truthful 
answer might tend to incriminate me. 

Senator McCarthy. You are entitled to that privilege, then. 

Mr. Matthews. At the time you were writing Deep Are the Roots, 
did you consult with any Communist Party leaders concerning the 
manuscript ? 

Mr. d'Usseau. I refuse to answer that on the basis of the fifth 
amendment. Any truthful answer might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Matthews. Mr. d'Usseau, have you ever engaged in sabotage ? 

Mr. D'Usseau. No. Have you? 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever engaged in espionage? 

Mr. D'Usseau. No. Have you? 

Senator McCarthy. Now, we will have no more of that. You will 
answer the questions. 

Mr. D'Usseau. I answered them. 

Senator McCarthy. All right. We will have no more of that. 

Counsel, if you want to advise your client, you may. 

(The witness consulted with his counsel.) 

Senator McCarthy. There are just 1 or 2 other questions. Do you 
believe the Communist form of government is superior to oiu's ? 

Mr. d'Usseau. Now we are in the realm of opinion, am I correct? 

Senator McCarthy. We want you to answer that question. You 
see, your books have been purchased by the 

Mr. d'Usseau. You are not interested in my books. If you are in- 
terested in my books, you would discuss them. 

Senator McCarthy. Please do not interrupt me. You see, when 
the old State Department, I would like to distinguish the old and the 
new, purchased your books, and distributed them in libraries through- 
out the world, the American people were told their money was being 
spent for the purpose of fighting communism, for the purpose of 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 467 

showing in its true liolit the American way of life. Therefore, tliis 
committee is checking into the question of whether or not those 
authors were Comnumists, whetlier at the time tliey wrote those books 
they believed our form of government slioukl be destroyed, whether 
they felt that the Communist form of government is better, whether 
they were giving their money, received from royalties, to further the 
Cominunist conspiracy. For that reason you are being asked those 
questions. If you are merely an author writing, if you are merely a 
Connnunist author 

Mr. dTTsseau. Doji't use the word "merely"; that is insulting. 
Author, that is enough. 

Senator McCarthy. If you are merely a Communist author writ- 
ing, selling his works to the American people, or selling them to people 
throughout the world, we would not be concerned with you. We 
would not call you here. The reason j^ou are called is because the 
American people have been buying 3'our works. Therefore, the ques- 
tion : At the time you wrote this book did you feel that the Communist 
form of government was superior to ours? 

Mr. d'Usseau. Senator, you are under several misa})prehensions : 
One is that I am not a taxpaj'er. I am a taxpayer. I am an American 
citizen. So, don't make that separation. 1 think it was ])erfectly 
justified for the overseas libraries to put my books on their shelves if 
they so chose. My plays are extremely popular. They are played all 
over the world. They have had very successful runs in this country. 

Senator McCarthy. You will answer the question : At the time you 
wrote the book, which was purchased by the old State Department 
and placed in our infonnation shelves, did you then feel that the Com- 
munists were advocating a form of government superior to ours? 

Mr. d'Esseau. Senator, I can't answer that question. First of all, 
it wasn't a book ; it was a play. 

Senator McCarthy. All right. 

Mr. d'Usseau. Let's get things straight, please. 

Senator McCarthy. All right; at the time you wrote the play. 
Now can you answer ? 

Mr. d'Usseau. If you wanted to debate this on television. I will 
be glad to at any time. But this is your ballpark with your ground 
rules, and I see no reason Avhy I should go into a question of opinion 
with you, where you have everything established in your favor. 1 
don't do you the discourtesy of meiely calling you a Senator. If you 
want to discuss this on the television, or will you run the way you did 
with tliose cliildren in New York -J or .'> months ago. There the sta- 
tion would be equal. 

Senator McCarthy. You nuiy i)roceed until you are through. 

Mr. d'Usseau. I have made my point. 

Senator McCarthy. All right; now answer the question. 

Mr. d'Usseau. AVould 3'ou please state it again ^ You have stated 
so many questions I am confused. 

Senator IMcCarthy. Mr. Reporter, will you have difficulty finding 
the question? 

I will restate it. At the time you wrote this play or book — what- 
ever it is 

]Mr. d'Usseau. It is a play. 

Senator McCarthy (continuing). Did you feel that the Connnu- 
nists were advocating a form of government superior to ours? 



468 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 

Mr. d'Usseau. When I wrote this play the Soviet Union and Amer- 
ica were friends. I believe they will be friends again, but not until 
the ideas that you represent are out of the way. My only feeling in 
regard to the Soviet Union, which I assume you are talking about, is 
that every effort should be made for this country and that country to 
be friend's. This has always been my position in regard to the Soviet 
Union. 

Senator McCarthy. Now, answer the question. 

Mr. d'Usseau. Obviously I do not understand it. Perhaps my 
definition of the word "communism"' and what you mean by it are 
entirely different things. I have told you what I feel about commu- 
nism. It isn't a question of superiority of one country over another. 
It is a question of every country getting together as they once did. 

Senator McCarthy. You are ordered to answer the question. 

Mr. d'Usseau. Whv don't you ask me when I stopped beating my 
wife? 

Senator McCarthy. You are ordered to answer the question. I do 
not know that you have been beating your wife. 

(The witness consulted with his counsel.) 

Mr. d'Usseau. You see, Senator, here we are in the realm of defi- 
nitions. Webster gives one definition of communism; you have an- 
other; there is undoubtedly a tliird and a fourth. 

Senator McCarthy. We will use your definition. Using your defi- 
nition, answer the question. 

Mr. d'Usseau. All right. I will tell you what my definition is. 

Senator McCarthy. I am not asking for your definition. 

Mr. d'Usseau. It is important. You want my answer. 

Senator McCarthy. I am saying keep in mind your definition. 
The question is: At the time you wrote the book, did you feel that 
communism, using your own definition 

Mr. d'Usseau. How do you know what my definition is unless you 
hear it ? 

Senator McCarthy. I am a very patient man. 

Mr. d'Usseau. So am I. 

Senator McCarthy, You keep on interrupting me and that patience 
will come to an end. So, we will ask you now not to interrupt me 
while I am asking you. a question. I have seen those tactics used in 
Judge Medina's court. I have seen them used by Communists all 
over the land. You are not going to use them in this committee. 

I am going to ask you a question, and you will be quiet until I finish 
the question. Using your definition of communism, did you feel at 
the time you wrote this book or play — call it what you may — that 
the Communists were advocating a system or form of government 
superior to ours? 

Mr. d'Usseau. Communism is a philosophy advocating the more 
equitable distribution of the wealth, a doing away with racial segre- 
gation, a striving for the betterment of mankind. This antedates 
Marx or any of the current thinkers. It is a basic philosophy just 
as the Christian philosophy is a basic philosophy. I think that the 
Communist philosophy has many good features in it. 

Senator McCarthy. Any bad features? 

Mr. d'Usseau. I am answering your question. Please do not inter- 
rupt me. Senator. 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 469 

Senator McCarthy. Any bad features? 

Mr. d'Usseau. I think it has many good features in it, and I tliink 
we "would do well to adopt them. On this question of 

Senator McCarthy. You thought we would do well to adopt them ? 

Mr. d'Usseau. Some of the features of communism are very good. 
For instance, on the question of racial segregation. 

Senator McCarthy. I am going to insist that you answer the 
question. 

Mr. d'Usseau. I have answered it. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Reporter, will you read tlie question to 
the witness and the witness will answer. We have a lot of time before 
we leave here. You will answer the question. 

(The reporter read from his notes as requested.) 

Mr. d'Usseau. All right. Now I have tried to give j'ou my defini- 
tion of what I consider communism to be. 

Senator McCarthy. I am not asking for your definition of com- 
munism. I am asking for an answer to tliat question. For the bene- 
fit — the people may wonder about that bell. That is a Senate quorum 
call. Where is Mrs. Watt? Do we have permission to sit while the 
Senate is in session? 

Now, you will answer the question. 

Mr. d'Usseau. I have tried to answer it, Senator. Maybe I can 
answer it this way 

Senator McCarthy. You can answer it "yes" or "no," whether you 
think they were advocating a system of government superior to ours, 
or you think they were not. It is not a difficult question. 

jSIr. d'Usseau. Maj^be you can clarify it for me. 

Senator McCarthy. You will try very hard, will you, to wait until 
I finish my question? You were on the payroll, indirectly, of our 
Government, you see, when they were buying your books. 

Mr. d'Usseau. I don't get that. 

Senator McCarthy. The question is, at that time, at the time you 
Avrote this book, did you feel that the Communists were advocating 
a form or system of government superior to ours? It is not a difficult 
question. If you think they were, you should not be ashamed to say 
so. If you think they were not, you can tell us they were not. I often 
wonder why you Communists come before us and you haven't got the 
guts to say you are Communists. 

Mr. d'Usseau. How can you talk about guts when you run out on 
some children out there on a radio program ? You are a man shooting 
fish in a barrel. 

Senator McCarthy. The next time you interrupt— I started to say, 
I often wonder why you Communists come before this committee and 
you do not have the guts to say that you are Communists. If you 
believe in communism you should have enough courage to say so. If 
you feel that the Communists were advocating a system of o;overn- 
ment superior to ours at the time you were writing for our Govern- 
ment, you can very simply say "yes!" If you think they were not, you 
can say "no." 

Mr.' d'Usseau. If to believe in the possibilities of peace, if to be- 
lieve in the rights of the poor over the privileges of the rich, if to be 
against racial discrimination is communism, then I most certainly 
think it is superior. 



470 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 

Senator McCarthy. You think communism is superior ? 

Mr. d'Usseau. I have given you my definition. Don't separate it 
now. 

Senator McCarthy. You think, using your definition, you think 
communism is superior? 

Mr. d'Usseau. My definition ; yes. Not yours, mine. 

Senator McCarthy. Did 3'ou feel that way at the time you wrote 
this book, whicli our Government purcliased and distributed through- 
out the world ? 

Mr. d'Usseau. For 18 years I have believed in the theories of so- 
cialism as expounded by Shaw, Tawney, deWebbs, by certain French 
and Russian writers. I think socialism will follow capitalism as a 
stage in history. This has been my conviction for 18 years. 

Senator McCarthy. I have asked you a very simple question. You 
said 3^ou thought communism, using your definition, is superior to 
what we have here. Tiie question is, did you feel that way at the 
time you wrote this play or book which was purchased by our old 
State Department and clistributed throughout the world? Did you 
feel that way then, or has your feeling changed ? 

Mr. d'Usseau. I have given 3'ou my definition of what communism 
is. 

(The witness consulted with his counsel.) 

Mr. d'UssEAU. I don't see any point in going further, so I am going 
to decline to answer that on the basis of the fifth amendment ; a truth- 
ful answer might tend to incriminate me. 

Senator McCarthy. You say, then, that as of today you feel that 
communism is su]3erior to what we have, but you say if you told us 
whether you felt the same way when you wrote the book it might 
tend to incriminate you? Under the circumstances, you will be or- 
dered to answer. 

Mr. d'Usseau. T thought I just did answer. 

Senator McCarthy. For the benefit of counsel, the witness has 
stated, and Senator Symington, may I say the witness has just stated 
that under his definition of communism he feels that their system is 
superior to ours. I asked him whether he felt that way at the time 
he wrote the book. He said he would refuse to answer on the ground 
the answer might incriminate him. Under the circumstances he can- 
not avail himself of the fifth amendment because if the answer would 
not incriminate him as of toda}' it could not incriminate him as of 
the time he wrote the book. Therefore, he is ordered to answer the 
simple question of whether or not he felt that, at the time he wrote 
this book or play that communism, using his own idea of what com- 
munism is, is superior to what we have in this country. You are 
ordered to answer that question. I may say to counsel if you do not, 
I will ask the Senate to cite the witness for contemr)t. 

Mr. France. Senator, may I ask that the portion of the answer 
Avhich says which a^ou say was said may be read back? 

Senator McCarthy. You certainly may have any answ^er read back. 
Which one do you want read back ? 

ISIr. France. I did not hear the witness say that he believed that 
commmiism was superior to our form of government. I would like 
to have what you thought he said read back. 

Senator McCarthy. In order to intelligently advise your client, 
you certainly may have read back to you any question. Counsel has 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 471 

in mind the answer in -which the witness gave a eulogy on communism 
Avith regard to racial discrimination and said it is sni)erior to what 
we have. See if you can find that question. 

(The reporter read from his notes as requested.) 

Senator McCarthy. Was that your definition of communism ? 

Mr, d'Usseau. Yes ; that is my definition. 

Senator McCarthy. And you stated that you think your definition 
is superior to what we haA^e ? 

Mr. d'Usseau. Maybe this would put it a little clearer. I think that 
we have certain things which are superior. I think that the Com- 
nuniists liave certain things which are superior. In my o})iiiion, if we 
could get togetlier and try to and use the best of both, it would be the 
best thing that could happen to this country and in the world. 

Senator McCarthy. Now, you told us how you feel as of today. 
The simple question I asked you was did you feel the same way at the 
time you wrote this play or book which our old State Department 
purchased. 

Mr, d'Usseau. Not quite. 

Senator IMcCarthy. Did you feel then, using your definition as you 
gave it to us 

Mr. d'Usseau. Not quite. 

Senator McCarthy. Let me finish, please. Did you feel then, using 
your own definition of what you think communism is, that at that 
time it was superior to what we have here ? 

Mr. d'Usseau. Not quite, because then the Soviet Union and the 
United States were allies, we were exchanging information, we were 
helping each other, and I felt we were on a road tliat would lead to 
harmony and understanding and there would be exchange of ideas 
that would benefit both countries. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you believe that the Connnunists advocate 
the overthrow of this Government, the establishment of a (yonununist 
regime, by force and violence? 

(The witness consulted with his counsel.) 

Mr. d'Usseau. No, I don't believe that. 

Senator McCarthy. You do not believe fliat. 

You would disagree with any alleged claim that the Communists 
advocate the overthrow of this Government by force and violence? 

(The witness consulted with his counsel.) 

Mr. France. Tlie witness would like to have you repeat the ques- 
tion. Senator. 

Senator McCarthy. Will the rei)orter read the question. 
(The reporter read from his notes as requested.) 

Mr. d'Usseau. Yes, I would disagree with tliat. 

Senator McCarthy. And if the Communists advocate the over- 
throw of this Government by force and violence, would you be against 
communism? 

Mr. d'Usseau. Now you are popping theoretical questions at me. 

Senator McCarthy. It is a simple question. If you found today, 
this afternoon, that the Communists do advocate the overthrow of 
this Government by force and violence, would you repudiate com- 
munism? 

Mr. d'Usseau. It seems to me to follow from the former answers 
that naturally I would. 



472 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 

Senator McCarthy. Well, the question is, Would you or would you 
not? 

Mr. d'UssEAu. Naturally I would. 

Senator McCarthy. In other words, if you were to find the Com- 
munists advocate the overthrow of this Government by force and 
violence, your answer is you would repudiate communism? 

Mr. d'IJsseau. Of course. But this is a silly question. It is theo- 
retical. It is in your imagination. I mean, I don't know why I should 
be 

Senator McCarthy. Can you tell us anything bad about com- 
munism ? 

Mr. d'Usseau. I can tell you a lot bad about communism. 

Senator McCarthy. Good, tell us something bad about it. 

Mr. d'Usseau. I think it is a great pity that they have not been 
able to carry out their own aims much more suc^^essfuUy than they 
have. I think it is too bad they had made the number of mistakes 
they have. However, I view it with a fairly tolerant eye, because 
they are human, and I know they are capable of mistakes. 

Senator McCarthy. You say it is bad because they have not been 
able to carry out their aims. Can you find anything bad about their 
aims ? 

Mr. d'Usseau. When I said not able to carry out their aims, I think 
they want more of the world's wealth for everybody. I think it was 
too bad. 

Senator McCarthy. Tell us something bad about their aims, if 
you can. Can you tell us anything bad about their aims? 

Mr. d'Usseau. Do you think to believe in peace is a bad aim? I 
don't. Do you think 

Senator jNIcCarthy. The question is can you tell us anything bad 
about their aims? 

Senator Symington. Do you believe that the Communists were the 
aggressors in Korea, or do you believe that the United Nations were 
the aggressors in Korea ? 

Mr. d'Usseau. I believe Syngman Rhee, the gentleman we are now 
having so much trouble with in Korea, and he pulled the United 
Nations along with him.. 

Senator Symington., In other words, you think the South Koreans 
attacked the North Koreans ? 

Mr. d'Usseau. That is my feeling, yes. 

Senator Symington. Thank you. 

Senator McCarthy. Just one further question: You have not yet 
told us whether or not you think there is anything bad about the 
Communist aims. Can you think of anything bad about the Com- 
munist aims ? 

Mr. d'Usseau. No, I can't think of anything bad, no. 

Senator McCarthy. Any questions, Dr. Matthews ? 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever written articles for the New Masses? 

Mr, d'Usseau. I refuse to answer that on the basis that it might 
tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever written articles for a Communist 
publication known as Masses and Main Stream ? 

Mr. d'Usseau. I refuse to answer that on the basis of it might tend 
to incriminate me. 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORIMATION PROGRAAI 473 

Senator McCarthy. You may step down. 

May I say, in view of this attack upon Syngman Rliee, that I think 
Syn^man Rhee is one of tlie greatest patriots of all times. I think he 
is doing a tremendous job to protect the rights of his country. 1 think 
Syngman Rhee is absolutely right. Your next witness, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. CoHN. Mrs. Robeson. 

TESTIMONY OF ESLANDA CARDOZA GOODE EOBESON, ACCOMPANIED 
BY MILTON H. FRIEDMAN, NEW YORK, N. Y.— Resumed 

Senator McCarthy. Mrs. Robeson, you are reminded that you are 
still under oath. Counsel will proceed. 

Mr. CoHN. May we have your full name ? 

Mrs. Robeson. Eslanda Cardozo Goode Robeson. 

Mr. CoHN. You are Mrs. Paul Robeson; is that correct? 

Mrs. Robeson. Yes, and very proud of it, too. 

Mr. CoHN. Are you the author of various books? 

Mrs. Robeson. Yes. 

Mr. CoHN. And are you the author of African Journey ? 

Mrs. Robeson. Yes. 

Mr. CoHN. And are you the author of a biography of Mr. Robeson? 

]\Irs. Robeson. Yes. 

]Mr. CoHN. Are both of those books in use in the overseas informa- 
tion centei's? 

Mr. ScHiNE. According to information we received from the State 
Department they are, purchased by the old team. 

Mr. IMatthews. Mrs. Robeson, are you a member of the Commimist 
Party? 

(The witness consulted with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robeson. Under the protection afforded me by the 5th amend- 
ment and the loth ameiidment. I refuse to answer that question. 

Senator McCarthy. By the 15th amendment ? 

Mrs. Robeson. Yes, the 5th and 15th. I claim the 15th as a Negi'o. 

Senator McCarthy. Let us see if the 15th amendment could possibly 
apply. Let me read it to you : 

Amendment 15 : The right of citizens of the United States to vote shaU not be 
denied or abridged by the United States or any State on account of race, color, 
or previous condition of servitude. 

This solely deals with your right to vote. You cannot refuse to an- 
swer questions about a conspiracy to destroy this Xation because you 
have the right to vote. May I say that we have had witnesses come 
before us previously and they try to make capital of their race or 
creed. Before this committee we do not have Negroes or whites. "We 
do not have Catholics, Protestants, or Jews. We have American citi- 
zens. They all have the same rights and you have no special right 
because of your race. You will be given no less consideration because 
of your race. You wrote books which our Government inirchased and 
distributed throughout the world, allegedly to fight comnnuiism. and 
to explain the American way of life. For that reason, we want to know 
whether or not 3'ou are a member of the Communist conspiracy. We 
do not care about your rights. Tlie 15th amendment has nothing 
to do with this. You can only refuse to answer if you feel that an 
honest, truthful answer might tend to incriminate you. If you so feel. 



474 STATE DEPARTMENT ESTFORMATION PROGRAM 

under our Constitution you can refuse to answer. I may say, Mrs. 
Robeson, if you or your husband were in Russia, and you were asked 
over there whether you were committing espionage against the United 
States, you would have no privilege under the 5th amendment. Now 
you will answer the question, unless you feel the question might tend 
to incriminate you. 

Mrs. Robeson. I don't quite understand your statement that we are 
all American citizens. I have been fighting for this for all my 56 
years. I am a second-class citizen now, as a Negro. That is the reason 
I always claim this. I would be very happy if we didn't have to dis- 
cuss race, and I hope we will at some point get to a place where we 
don't have to. But in the meantime you are white and I am Negro, 
and this is a very white committee, and I feel I must sort of protect 
myself. I am sorry it is necessary. 

Senator McCarthy. The only person that has been discussing race 
today is yourself. You say you are "a second-class citizen." I say 
every Communist in this country is and should be considered a second- 
class citizen. 

Mrs. Robeson. The Negro people are really second class. 

Senator McCarthy. Are you a Communist as of today ? 

Mrs. Robeson. Under the protection of the 5th and, as I said, the 
15th, because I am a Negro, I refuse to answer the question. 

Senator McCarthy. I will ask you the question : Do you feel, if you 
told us the truth today under oath as to whether you are a Communist 
at this moment, that that answer might tend to incriminate you? 

Mrs. Robeson. I would never tell you anything but a truthful 
answer. 

Senator McCarthy. You can spend all the time you like. We are 
going to get your answer. 

Mrs. Robeson. I do object to this truthful answer. I am under oath, 
and I would not tell a lie, not under any circumstances. So, if you 
would leave out the truthful, I can answer it very simply. 

Senator McCarthy. We cannot leave out the truthful answer. If 
you were to give us a perjurious answer, if that would incriminate you, 
you would not be entitled to the protection of the fifth amendment. 
It is a very important protection that you and everyone else has. I am 
asking you the simple question : Do you feel, if you gave us an honest, 
truthful answer as to whether you are a Communist today, that that 
honest, truthful answer would tend to incriminate you ? 

Mrs. Robeson. Might tend to incriminate me. 

Senator McCarthy. All right; you are entitled to the privilege, 
then. 

Mr. Matthews. Mrs. Robeson, at the time you wrote your book, 
the African Journe}^, were you a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mrs. Robeson. I wrote African Journey under a period of roughly 
about 10 years. The question is : Was I a member of the Communist 
Party ? 

Mr. Matthews. Yes; were you a member of the Communist Party 
at the time you wrote the book ? 

Mrs. Robeson. Under the protection of the fifth amendment, I re- 
fuse to answer that question. 

ISIr. Matthews. Did you receive royalties for the books? 

Mrs. Robeson. Yes. 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAIVI 475 

Mr. Matthews. Did you contribute any portion of those royalties 
to the Communist Party ? 

Mrs. Robeson. I used them all to go to Africa for a second journey ; 
all of them. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Will you please answer the question ? 

Mrs. Robeson. No. 

Mr. IMatihews. Did you contribute any portion 

Mrs. Robeson. I beg your pardon. I was answering the question. 
No; I used them all. I remember distinctly I used them all to go 
to Africa. 

Mr. Matthews. You wrote a biography of your husband, Paul 
Robeson, did you not? 

Mrs. Robeson. In 1930. 

Mr. Matthews. Were you a member of the Communist Party at 
the time you wrote that book ? 

Mrs. Robeson. Under the ]Di'otection of the fifth amendment, I 
refuse to answer. 

Senator McCarthy. May I interrupt, Dr. Matthews, and ask Mr. 
Schine : Has it been established that Mrs. Robeson's books have been 
purchased and are on the shelves of our information libraries through- 
out the world ? 

Mr. Schine. That has been established according to information 
we have received from the State Department, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator McCarthy. Pardon me, Doctor. 

Mr. Matthews. JSlrs. Robeson, in your book The African Jour- 
ney, did you say that the one hopeful light on the horizon is the 
exciting and encouraging condition in Soviet Russia ? 

Mrs. Robeson. You would have to read it to me. It was written 
over a period of 10 years and published in 1915, and this is 1953. 

Mr. Matthews. That is 8 years ago. 

Mrs. Robeson. If you could read it to me 

Mr. Matthews. On page 47 [reading] : 

And the one hopeful light on the horizon, the exciting and encouraging condi- 
tions in Soviet Russia. 

Mrs. Robeson. Could you tell me what went before? 
Mr. Matthews. That is the beginning of the paragraph. 

Mrs. Robeson. Yes, but I 

Mr. Matthews. The statement before says : 

The complacence of the Euroi)eans and the ever-growing ineffeetualities of the 
League of Nations. 

There is no verb in the sentence. I am reading it as printed. 

Mrs. Robeson. Is that the end of the sentence ?_ 

Mr. Matthews. Yes. And the next sentence is the one I read. 

Mrs. Robeson. I better look at it. 

Mr. Matthews. Was that your feeling? 

Mrs. Robeson. If I wrote it in the book, that was definitely my 
feeling. I have never written anything I did not feel, never. 

Senator McCarthy. If the witness wants to look at the book- 

Mr. Matthews. Have you spent some time in the Soviet Union? 

Mrs. Robeson. Yes; I spent 12 years in England and 2 years, in 
small periods, in the Soviet Union. 

Mr. Matthews. What years were you in the Soviet Union ? 



476 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORIMATION PROGRAM 

Mrs. Robeson. Well, it was off and on. I don't remember exactly 
when, but we went for a concert tour, and then we went for a holiday, 
and I don't remember exactly when it was, but I could probably look 
them up. It is a matter of record somewhere. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you and your husband publicly state that you 
wanted your son educated in the Soviet Union? 

Mrs. Robeson. I would have to think of this in context. I know we 
have always wanted for our son the best education, everywhere in 
the world, we coidd get for him. We had some of it in England ; we 
had most of it here in America. He had a little over a year, I think, 
in the Soviet Union, of his 27 years. 

Mr. Matthews. Did you or your husband, either or both, ever take 
out Soviet citizenship ? 

Mrs. Robeson. Never. 

Mr. Matthew^s. Did your husband express the sentiment that, as 
for him and you and your son, the Soviet Union was the land of the 
future ? 

ISIrs. Robeson. This I don't know. I am sorry. You know there are 
so many things that have happened ; I have no idea. I would have 
to have a record of whatever it was he said. 

Mr. Mattheavs. Have you written any articles for the Communist 
press ? 

Mrs. Robeson. I have written hundreds of articles for all kinds of 
publications. 

Mr. Matthews. Including some that were Communist ? 

(The witness consulted with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robeson. I don't know what is the Communist press. 

ISIr. Matthews. Well, the Daily Worker, for example. 

(The witness consulted with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robeson. Under the protection of the fifth amendment, I refuse 
to answer that. 

Mr. Matthews. On the grounds that a truthful answer might tend 
to incriminate you? 

Mrs. Robeson. Not truthful, as I say I couldn't answer anything but 
truthful. So just take that for granted. It worries me to hear truth- 
ful. I would not say anything that isn't truthful under oath, or, as a 
matter of fact, any other time. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you participated in what is known as the 
American Peace Crusade? 

Mrs. Robeson. So far as I know, I have participated in every possi- 
ble business for peace anywhere I found it. 

Mr. Matthews. In this particular organization, the American 
Pea'^e Crusade 

(The witness consulted with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robeson. Everything that has been for peace, I participated in. 

IMr. Matthews. Do you recall specifically whether or not you have 
participated 

Mrs. Robeson. No, I don't recall specifically, but if it says peace I 
probablv have taken part in it, yes. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you participated in the work of the Civil 
Rifflits Congress? 

INIrs. Robeson. Well, I made a speech in Detroit a few weeks ago 
against McCarthyism that was done by the Civil Rights Congress. 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 477 

Mr. Matthews. Under the auspices of the Civil Rights Congress ? 

Mrs. Robeson. Yes. 

Mr. Maithews. Is it your understanding that that is a Communist 
organization ? 

Mrs. Robeson. No. 

Mr. Matthews. "When you made the speech in Detroit under the aus- 
pices of the Civil Rights Congress, were you a member of the Com- 
munist Party ? 

Mrs. Robeson. Under the protection of the 5th and 15th amend- 
ment, I will not answer. 

Senator McCarthy. I missed the witness' answer. She made a 
speech on the what? 

Mr. Matthews. She made a speech on McCarthyism in Detroit 
under the auspices of the Civil Rights Congress. She did not say 
whether she was for it or against it. 

Mrs. Robeson. I will give you two guesses. 

Senator Symington. Mrs. Robeson, I Avould like to ask you a couple 
of questions, if I may. You said that you consider yourself a second- 
class citizen of the United States? 

Mrs. Robeson. My experience has been, as a Negi'o, that I am a 
second-class citizen in the United States, much against my will, and 
all my life I have worked to become a first-class citizen. 

Senator Symington. You said the committee, as I remember your 
phrase, was very white. 

Mrs. Robeson. Yes. 

Senator Symington. Do you not think there are some people who 
are working to help Negroes become more first-class citizens than 
second-class citizens ? 

Mrs. Robeson. I believe there definitely are, I know there are, and 
I wish that the work could be more effective and a little faster, because 
I am getting older now. 

Senator Symington. I think you have been a very intelligent wit- 
ness, and I do not think that anybody should imply, and I am sure 
nobody does imply, that because you were interested in peace that 
automatically made you a subversive. 

Mrs. Robeson. I hope not. 

Senator Symington. But I would like to ask this question. Would 
you be more willing to answer questions with respect to communism 
and the possibility of your being a Communist, if you were more 
satisfied with your position in this country as a Negro? 

Mrs. Robeson. I think that if I were a first-class citizen, really knew 
I was, I would be then free of a lot of inhibitions and protective things 
that I feel I must do for myself because I luive had to do them all my 
life. I feel that I would be much freer to say things, do things, think 
things, and be things. I do, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. May I interrupt, Senator Symington? If 
that is the ground upon which you refuse to answer, you will be ordered 
to answer. 

Mrs. Robeson. That is not the ground, sir. 

Senator Symington. May I proceed, Mr. Chairman? 

Senator McCarthy. Yes, certainly. 

Senator Symington. You emphasized, and I thought very credit- 
ably, that you wanted to answer the questions truthfully and there- 
fore YOU did not like the word "truthful" even in the question. 



478 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 

Mrs. Robeson. I only answer questions truthfully, under oath and 
even in ordinary life, because I found it is too much of a nuisance to 
remember lies and so on that I wouldn't be bothered with it. I really 
wouldn't. This is absolutely sincere, sir. 

Senator Symington. Then naturally the coimnittee has a right to 
feel, and I am only trying to be constructive in the question, that the 
reason you refuse to answer whether or not you are a Communist 
means that there is a good chance you are a Communist. What I am 
trying to get at is the reason that you feel the way you apparently do 
toward communism is because of your belief that your race has not had 
a fair deal in the United States. 

Mrs. EoBESON. No, that is not it at all, sir. The reason I refuse 
to answer the question is because I think that it is possible if I say 
something here — in the first place, I think my opinions are my private 
personal affair, and I really do not think anybody has the right to 
ask me. I do not think you have the right to ask me if I am living 
in sin, or what do I think or what do I feel and so on. I will come 
to the point now. 

Senator Symington. But as a Congress we have a right to ask you 
whether you are dedicated to an organization which in turn is dedi- 
cated to overthrowing the American Government by force and vio- 
lence, have we not? 

Mrs. Robeson. Apparently. 

Senator Symington. Isn't that a proper function of the Congress, 
to try to find out who is a traitor and who is not a traitor? 

Mi^. Robeson. I think so, definitely, to try to to find out who is a 
traitor and who is not a traitor, yes. You are entirely losing time 
if you are talking to me about being a traitor, because I am a very 
loyal American. 

Senator Symington. Do you not think anybody that says that they 
are a loyal American and who is dedicated to overthrow the Govern- 
ment by force and violence is pretty close to a traitor ? 

Mrs. Robeson. I don't know anybody that is dedicated to over- 
throwing the Government by force and violence. The only force and 
violence I know is what I have experienced and seen in this country 
and it has not been by Communists. 

Senator Symington. In other words, you do not think the Com- 
munist Party is dedicated to overthrowing the United States Gov- 
ernment by force and violence ? 

Mrs. Robeson. I do not know that they are, and as far as an opinion 
is concerned, I don't think they are. I have never seen any proof 
whatsoever that they are, I have never heard of any circumstance 
where they have used force and violence, so I don't know. I wouldn't 
think so, if I had to offer an opinion. 

Senator Symington. No further questions. 

Senator McCarthy. You said you had no reason to believe that 
they are dedicated to the overthrow of this Government by force 
and violence. Let me ask you this question : Did you ever attend 
a Communist meeting at which there was discussed the wisdom or 
the necessity of overthrowing the Government by force and violence ? 

(The witness consulted with her counsel.) 

Mrs. Robeson. I beg your pardon. 

May I have the question again, sir? 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 479 

Senator McCarthy. You want the question repeated ? 

Mrs. KoBEsoN. Yes. 

Senator McCarthy. Rather than impose upon the reporter to find 
the notes, I will ask you : I understood you to say to Senator Syming- 
ton that you had no reason to believe that Communists were dedicated 
to the overthrow of this Government by force and violence. 

Mrs. EoBESON. Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarthy. My question now is, Did you ever attend a 
Communist cell meeting at which officials of the Communist Party 
discussed the wisdom or the necessity of overthrowing our form of 
government by force and violence ? 

Mrs. Robeson. I never heard anybody discuss overthrowing the 
Government by force and violence, anywhere, under any circumstances, 
so far as I can now remember. 

Senator McCarthy. And that would include any Communist meet- 
ing or any other meeting ? 

Mrs. Robeson. Anj'- meeting at all. 

Senator McCarthy. Have you attended Communist cell meetings 
at which there was discussed either espionage or sabotage? 

Mrs. Robeson. Well, I don't know, sir, what a Communist cell is. 
Could you explain that to me ? 

Senator McCarthy. Do you know what a Communist cell is? 

Mrs. Robeson. No, I don't. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you belong to a Communist cell? 

Mrs. Robeson. I don't know what it is. How can I tell whether 
I belong to it or not. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you know whether you belong to one or 
not ? If you do not know whether you belong to one or not, you can 
just tell us. 

Mrs. Robeson. I don't know what it is, so I don't know. 

Senator McCarthy. Let us use the word "unit," then. 

Mrs. Robeson. I beg your pardon. 

Senator McCarthy. Let us use the word "unit" instead of "cell." 
Do vou belong to a Communist unit ? 

Mrs. Robeson. I don't know what a unit is. These are technical 
questions I don't understand. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you belong to a unit of the Communist 
Party? 

(The witness consulted with her counsel.) 

Senator Symington. Could I ask one more question? 

Senator McCarthy. Could I have an answer to this one first. Will 
you answer it ? 

Mrs. Robeson. I don't know what a cell is. I don't know what a 
unit is. So far as I know, no, I have never attended anything at all 
which I would understand to be official or unofficial. 

Senator McCarthy. Have you ever attended a meeting of the 
Communist Party ? 

Mrs. Robeson. Under the protection of the fifth amendment, I re- 
fuse to answer this. 

Senator McCarthy. May I say, Mrs. Robeson, you have been dis- 
cussing the fact that you claim to be a second-class citizen. Today 
you are getting special consideration which you perhaps should not 
get, I don't know. You have testified that you do not believe the 



480 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 

Communists are dedicated to the overthrow of this Government by- 
force and violence. Under the circnmstances it would not be a crime 
for you to belong to the Communist Party. The Smith Act only 
makes it a crime if you are conscious of the fact that the Communist 
Party is dedicated to the overthrow of this Government by force 
and violence. Therefore, when you say you think they are not, under 
our laws, you are not entitled to avail yourself of the privilege of 
the fifth amendment, because under our laws you would not be guilty 
of a crime, if you were a Communist. 

I am not going to order you to answer those questions and cite you 
for contempt. I may say that the first man who comes up before the 
committee and follows the same line will be ordered to answer whether 
he is a Communist. If he refuses, I will ask the committee to cite 
him for contempt. I just want you to know that you are getting 
special consideration today. 

Mrs. Robeson. Thank you. You wanted to ask a question, Senator? 

Senator Symington. Yes. I think I would like to ask whether or 
not you do not answer the question, whether or not you are a Com- 
munist today, Mrs. Robeson, is because you think it might incriminate 
you, or whether you do not answer it because you do not think the 
Congress has the right to ask you. 

Mrs. Robeson. Well, certainly so far as I know, this may be a tech- 
nical point, so far as I know, nobody has a right to ask me this ques- 
tion. Now, there may be technical reasons which I don't know about, 
which give people the right. So that is my understanding of it. 

Mr. Matthews. Mrs. Robeson, did you hear the previous witness' 
testimony that in his opinion South Korea was the aggressor in the 
present Korean war? Did you hear the witness so testify? 

Mrs. Robeson. Well, I got some impression of a discussion on the 
Korean war. I didn't get it quite accurately. 

Mr. Matthews. Well, is it your belief that South Korea was the 
aggressor in the present Korean war ? 

Mrs. Robeson. Well, how could I know ? 

Mr. Matthews. I asked for your belief. If you have none — — 

Mrs. Robeson. I wasn't there, and I don't know who was where, 
when. I really don't know. 

Mr. Matthews. Have you ever spoken on the subject of the Korean 
war publicly ? 

Mrs. Robeson. No, not about who started it. 

Senator McCarthy. I think that is all, Mrs. Robeson. I want to 
thank you. 

Mr. Friedman. There is one statement Mrs. Robeson wishes to 
make. 

Mrs. Robeson. Yes, I didn't quite finish the answer. 

Senator McCarthy. Is the statement in answer to a question ? 

Mrs. Robeson. Yes, it was. 

Senator McCarthy. You may finish your answer. 

Mrs. Robeson. It was on the right of anyone to ask me questions. 
I understand that certain questions, if I make certain statements, they 
might tend to incriminate me. Therefore, I must invoke the fifth 
amendment. That is the reason I have invoked it so much. 

Senator McCarthy. You have the right to invoke it. 

Mrs. Robeson. Yes. Thank you. 



STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 481 

Senator McCarthy. Just one further question. You made the 
statement that this is an all-white committee. May I say that there 
are no Negro Senators in the Senate of the United States. 

Mrs. Robeson. That is a pity. 

Senator McCarthy. The people have a right to elect them. If 
there were one here, he might or might not be on the committee. 

Mrs. Robeson. Most of the Negroes are in the South, sir, and they 
do not get as much right as other people. 

Senator McCarthy. I must say in that connection, do you feel that 
this committee has ever discrimnated against your race? If so, tell 
us when. 

Mrs. Robeson. It isn't that I mean, when I protect myself under 
the 15th amendment ; I mean that the pity of it is that there are not 
Negro Senators. That would be a good thing if there were. And 
I tliiiik, considering we are 10 percent of the population, that there 
should be. This is part of the discrimination that I worry about. 

Senator IMcCarthy. That, of course, is discrimination by the vot- 
ers, not by this committee. 

JSIrs. Robeson. No, because the voters in the South, are in another 
position. You see, the majority of the Negro people are in the 
South, and they are only just now achieving the right to vote. 

Senator McCarthy. You do not feel this committee has discrim- 
inated against your race, do you ? 

Mrs. Robeson. Now? 

Senator McCarthy. At any time. Do you know of any time in the 
past? 

Mrs. Robeson. I don't know of any time so far. 

Senator McCarthy. May I have just one thing in closing, Mrs. 
Robeson : May I say you appear to be a very charming woman. You 
appear to be an intelligent lady. If you feel that communism can aid 
either the people of this country or your race, you have a right to 
advocate communism as long as you do not advocate the overthrow of 
this Government by force and violence. You can advocate a socialis- 
tic system or a Marxian system. I often wonder why people like your- 
self, who apparently feel that communism is the answer to the ills that 
beset your race or the world, why they do not come up here before 
this committee and say, "Yes, I am a Communist. I believe in 
communism." 

You see, if they did, we do not mind hearing you. You have a right 
to get up and preach communism. I do not apply this to you, now, but 
I think it is a cowardly thing for a man who claims to be an American 
to come up before our committee and say, "I am ashamed to tell you 
whether I am a Communist or not." It is difficult for me to under- 
stand. I am not applying that to you. I do not propose to argue with 
a lady. 

Mrs. Robeson. Well, I think that is very nice of you. Senator 
McCarthy, but I must say that I am a very, very loyal American, and 
I really have fought most of my life, since I have been grown up, for 
the Constitution and Bill of Rights, which I think are marvelous. All 
I really wanted to have done was to have them interpreted for me 
and the Negro people, let the communism fall where it may. Because 
this I have something to do about as an American citizen, this is 
what I am concerned about. 



482 STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM 

Senator McCarthy. Do you feel that the Communist system would 
do more for the Negro people ? 

Mrs. Robeson. I have no idea. 

Senator McCarthy. You have no idea ? 

Mrs. EoBESON". I have no idea. 

Senator McCarthy. Do you agree with me that the Negro race has 
made great strides and achieved much since the very short time ago 
since they were in slavery ? 

Mrs. Robeson. I think they have gone backward when you compare 
with the speed with which other people have gone forward. 

Senator McCarthy. Let me ask you this : Does your husband follow 
the Communist line and preach communism because he feels that is 
better for the American people ? 

Mrs. Robeson. I think you ought to ask him that. 

Senator McCarthy. You may refuse to answer that. It is a 
husband-wife relationship. You may refuse. You may step down. 

Mrs. Robeson. Thank you. 

Senator McCarthy. Mr. Harvey O'Connor ? 

(No response.) 

May I ask if Harvey O'Connor was asked to be here today? 

Mr. CoHN. He was directed to appear, Mr. Chairman. Apparently 
he has not appeared. 

Senator JNIcCarthy. How was he directed ? 

Mr. CoHN. He was directed by telephone and agreed to come, and 
he was further directed by a confirmatory telegram sent under the 
name of the chairman of the committee, which, under the rules of 
the Senate, is proper. 

Senator McCarthy. May I ask if counsel understands the rules of 
the Senate to be that as long as a man is notified to be here, that it is 
not necessary to serve a formal subpena ? 

Mr. CoHN. That is correct, Mr. Chairman. If the actual notice is 
received by the witness, he must appear before the committee. 

Senator McCarthy. Then I would suggest if Harvey O'Connor 
does not have an adequate excuse for not being here, that counsel or 
the executive director, either of you, take the necessary steps to have 
this brought to the attention of the committee and have this man cited 
for contempt for failure to be here. 

The committee will now adjourn until 3 o'clock this afternoon, 
for executive session, after which we will adjourn until Thursday. 
Dr. Johnson, prior to his resignation, had indicated he would be with 
us on Thursday. I notice that he resigned because of bad health. 
If he feels that he cannot testify, we will not require him to testify. 
He has been very cooperative with the committee and very helpful, 
and I think doing an excellent job. If, however, his physical condi- 
tion allows, he will be asked to be here at 10 : 30 Thursday morning 
in this room. 

(Wliereupon, at 11 : 50 a. m., the committee was recessed, to recon- 
vene at 3 p. m. the &-ame day, in executive session.) 



INDEX 



Page 

Africa 475 

African Journey (book) 473, 474 

American Civil War 459 

American Communist Party 423, 426, 429, 452 

American Government 421, 

424, 427, 431, 433, 438, 442, 449, 451, 461, 469, 470, 473, 478, 480 

American Mercury 431 

American Revolution 459 

Antioch Review 435 

Attorney General 418 

Baltimore 452, 481 

Bill of Rights 427, 434 

Black, Justice 448, 449 

Boyer, Richard O 421 

Testimony of 422-433 

Brown, Capt. John 427 

Burgum, Edwin Berry, testimony of 433-439 

Canadian border 461 

Canyon Review 435 

Chambers, Whittaker 422, 423 

Civil Rights Congress 476, 477 

Committee on Education (President's Advisory Committee on Education)- 422, 

433, 444, 451, 456 

Communism and the New Deal (written article) 463 

Communist Government (Russia) 459 

Communist Labor Party 418 

Communist Manifesto 437 

Communist Partv 418-421. 

423-^39, 442, 444-447, 449, 450, 452-461, 463-469, 471-480, 482 

Communist Party (National Committee) 452, 461 

Communist Party (North Korea) 460 

Communist Party (United States) 423, 426, 429, 452 

Communist Russia 428 

Communists in the White House (written article) 463 

Congress 422, 447, 448, 478, 480 

Constitution of the United States 427, 438, 465, 481 

Curran 425, 426 

Czechoslovakia 459 

Daily Worker 432, 460, 462, 476 

Dark Ship (book) 425. 426 

Dartmouth College 426, 436, 437 

Deep Are the Roots 464-466 

Democratic Party 424 

Department of Justice 430, 431 

deWebbs 470 

Dies, Martin 418 

Douglas, Justice 449 

Dulles, John Foster 422, 423 

d'Usseau, Arnaud, testimony of 464-472 

East Berlin 460 

Eisenhower, President 422 

Emerson 423, 427, 428 

Evans, Luther 457, 458 

Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) 442 

Federal Government 424, 427, 431, 433, 442, 451, 461, 469, 470, 473, 478, 480 



II INDEX 

Page 

Federal Security Agency (FSA) 442-444 

Foley Square trial 454 

Forer, Joseph 441 

France, R. W 464^ 47O 

Friedman, Milton H ' 473 

Germany (book burnings) 420 

Gilmore 423 

Government Printing Office 451, 456 

Government of the United States '42I 

424, 427, 431, 433, 438, 442, 449, 451, 461, 409, 470, 473, 478, 480 

Gow, James 465, 466 

Harvard University 426, 437 

Hegel 434,' 435 

Hiss, Alger 422, 451, 452, 456 

Hitler Germany 42o 

Howard University 444, 454 

International Information Administration (HA) 422 

Jefferson School (New York) 454, 455 

Johnson, Dr 482 

Johnson, Robert L 422, 423 

Justice Department 430, 431 

Kent, Rockwell 425 

Testimony of 417-421 

Kerensky Government 459 

Korea 460, 472 

Lattimore, Owen 452 

Lattimore, Mrs. Owen 452 

Lawrence, John 431 

League of Nations 475 

Magee, Willie 458 

Mainstream (publication) 481, 435, 472 

Manifesto ( Communist) 437 

Marx, Karl 432-435, 468, 481 

Masses (publication) 431, 435, 472 

Matthews, Dr. J. B. (written articles) 464 

McCarran Act 424 

McCarran subcommittee 435 

Medina, Judge 468 

Mexican War of 1846 427 

Meyers, Blackie 426, 427-430 

National Committee (Communist Party) 452, 461 

New Deal 463 

New Masses (publication) 432, 472 

New York Times . 435, 436 

New York University I 435 

New Yorker magazine 431 

Niagara Falls 461 

North American Continent 461 

North Korea (Communist Party) 460 

North Koreans 472 

O'Connor, Harvey 482 

Office of Price Administration (OPA) 442-444 

On Civil Disobediance (speech) 427 

Parker, Theodore 428 

Polish Government system 459 

President of the United States 422, 443, 444, 451, 456 

President's Advisory Committee on Education 422, 443, 444, 451, 456 

President's Advisory Commission 422, 443, 444, 451, 4.56 

Progressive Party 424 

Reader's Digest 431 

Rein, Davidl 417, 422, 433 

Rhee, Syngman 472 

Robeson, Eslanda Cardoza Goode, testimony of 473-482 

Robeson, Paul ^^ 473, 475, 476 

Robeson. Mrs. Paul (Eslanda Cardoza Goode Robeson) testimony of 473-482 

Rocky Mountain Review 435 



INDEX III 

Page 

Reeves. Floyd 456 

Roosevelt, President 443, 444, 451, 456 

Ivosenbers:. Ethel 4-,^ 

Rosenberg. Julius 458 

Russian Government system 459, 461 

Russian Revolution 4,^9 

Sacco-Vanzetti 45S 

Santa Margarita Waterway 462 

Seattle. \Yash 426, 429 

Science and Society (publication) 435 

Secretary of State 422 

Senate of the United States 469, 470, 481, 482 

SUaw 470 

Smith Act 424, 431, 448, 480 

Socialist 459 

South Koreans 472, 480 

Southern States 451 

Soviet Union 422, 427, 428, 468, 471, 475, 476 

Speaking of Peace (book) 423 

Special Problems of Negro Education (book) 441, 451 

Sunday Book Review (New York Times) 435, 436 

State Department 422, 423, 446, 461, 464, 466, 467, 470, 471, 475 

Syracuse Times-Union 420 

Tawney 470 

Thompson, Dorothy 402 

Thoreau 427, 428 

Times (publication) 420 

T'nited Nations 472 

United States Attorney General 418 

United States Congress 422, 447, 448, 478, 480 

United States Constitution 427, 438, 465, 481 

United States Government 421, 

424, 427, 431, 433, 438, 442, 449, 451, 461, 469, 470, 473, 478, 480 

United States Federal Court 425 

Ignited States Information and Excange Act (1948) 422 

United States Senate 469, 470, 481, 482 

Vanzetti. {See Sacco-Vanzetti.) 

Virginia Quarterly Review 435 

Waldorf Peace Conference 427 

Webster 468 

White House 463 

Wilkerson, Doxey A., testimony of 441-462 

o