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SUBSTANCE AND FUNCTION IN ARCHITECTURE
Raphael Soriano
Interviewed by Marlene L. Laskey
Completed under the auspices
of the
Oral History Program
University of California
Los Angeles
Copyright © 1988
The Regents of the University of California
CXJPYRIGHT LAW
The copyright law of the United States (Title 17,
United States Code) governs the making of photocopies
or other reproductions of copyrighted material . Under
certain conditions specified in the law, libraries and
archives are authorized to furnish a photocopy or other
reproduction. One of these specified conditions is
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uses, a photocopy or reproduction for purposes in
excess of "fair use," that user may be liable for
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right to refuse to accept a copying order if, in its
judgement, fulfillment of the order would involve
violation of copyright law.
RESTRICTIONS ON THIS INTERVIEW
None.
LITERARY RIGHTS AND QUOTATION
This manuscript is hereby made available for research
purposes only. All literary rights in the manuscript,
including the right to publication, are reserved to
the University Library of the University of California,
Los Angeles. No part of the manuscript may be quoted
for publication without the written permission of the
University Librarian of the University of California,
Los Angeles.
Photograph courtesy of Marlene L. Laskey.
CONTENTS
Biographical Summary vll
Interview History Ix
TAPE NUMBER: I, Side One (July 19, 1985) 1
Family background — Persecution and expulsion of
Spanish Jews — The Island of Rhodes — Father's
method of punishing him — Takes care of parents as
they grow older- -Exposure and feelings toward
music — Early education- -Leaving for Amerlca--
Arrlvlng at Ellis Island.
TAPE NUMBER: I, Side Two (July 19, 1985) 35
Eating In America- -Learns English at the Los
Angeles Coaching School --Studies at the
University of Southern California — Choosing
architecture over music composition- -Remain
Rolland- -Questions teachers at the USC School of
Architecture- -The acceptance of new Ideas among
students and colleagues.
TAPE NUMBER: II, Side One (July 19, 1985) 66
Lecture to the American Institute of Archltects--
The Second Generation and Imitations of Richard
J. Neutra- -Rudolph M. Schlndler--Deslgnlng his
first house- -The John Reed Club- -David
Slquelros — Falling In love with Ruth Orkln--Frank
Lloyd Wright and Richard J. Neutra speak at the
Los Angeles Philharmonic Auditorium- -Working for
the County of Los Angeles--Learnlng architecture
through observatlon--Bulldlng the Llpetz House--
Recoverlng from the 1932 accident.
TAPE NUMBER: II, Side Two (July 19, 1985) 103
The use of steel --Influence of Neutra- -The lost
projects In Tlburon — The advantages of using
aluminum over wood- -The work of Joseph Elchler,
Theodore C. Bernardl, Frederick Emmons, and A.
Qulncy Jones — "Nostalgic" housing styles and
standards- -The Federal Housing Administration
(FHA) and Its requirement of conforming to the
iv
neighborhood quality and housing- -Rebelling
against nostalgia and tradition.
TAPE NUMBER: III, Side One (July 20, 1985) 133
Working with Fritz Ruppell — Milton Katz and the
Gato House — The Polito House — The [Glen] Lukens
House — Soriano's landscaping work--The advantages
of building with steel — Using aluminum — The
Strauss House- -Using prefabricated materials to
construct the Hallawell Nursery — Acquiring
rationed materials during World War II — Vies with
Frank Lloyd Wright to do the V.C. Morris Company.
TAPE NUMBER: III, Side Two (July 20, 1985) 162
Gives V.C. Morris contract to Wright--Soriano' s
"stolen" drawings for the IBM building in San
Francisco- -The Julius Shulman House and the use
of epoxy resin for welding- -The Curtis House:
Soriano's first prefabricated house- -
Experimenting with insulating cork — More on the
use of steel in housing — Philip C. Johnson--
Soriano's influence on Craig Ellwood--Attitude
towards the work and writings of Cesar Pelli--
Joseph Y. Fujikawa- -Gets turned down to do
Station KQED in San Francisco.
TAPE NUMBER: IV, Side One (July 20, 1985) 197
Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors rejects
his model for the Barnsdall Art Center- -The Case
Study Program and California Arts and
Architecture- -Feelings toward John Entenza and
his promotion of modern architecture--Charles
Fames and the Fames House — The Case Study Houses
1945-1960 — Relationship with Julius Shulman — The
1950 Alcoa Aluminum Conference- -Moves to the San
Francisco area — Organizes Project Architects —
Giro's stores in San Francisco and Beverly
Hills--The Colby Apartment.
TAPE NUMBER: IV, Side Two (July 20, 1985) 231
More on the Colby Apartment and its cabinetry- -
The lack of craftsmanship in architecture — "The
New House in 194X" — Introduces the use of
eight-foot doors- -Plywood walls and ribbon
windows — Corrugating with Plexiglas — Creating
light.
TAPE NUMBER: V, Side One (July 20, 1985) 262
Questions the existence of a Bay Area style of
architecture--Soriano's influence on London
architecture- -Designing housing with climate in
mind- -Being a part of the architectural scene in
Los Angeles during the thirties and forties--
Richard J. Neutra's contributions to housing--
William W. Wurster — Soriano's present living
conditions .
TAPE NUMBER: V, Side Two (July 21, 1985) 296
First wife — Moving to Tiburon — The Alcoa
project--The proposal for Alcatraz--Builds
prefabricated aluminum houses in Hawaii--Building
for Frank McCauley — The extent of Soriano's
influence — Builders' and architects' reluctance
to adopt Soriano ' s ideas .
TAPE NUMBER: VI, Side One (July 21, 1985) 323
Style and classification in art and
architecture- -The imposition of artificiality on
architect and the arts--Questions of aesthetics
and function — Architectural style during the
Renaissance- -Seeing religious murals as
propaganda posters.
TAPE NUMBER: VI, Side Two (July 21, 1985) 357
The need for progress in architecture- -The
importance of critical thinking in the teaching
of architecture- -Defining art and artisans--
Building with durability and other considerations
in mind — Concern for public housing among
architects--Feelings toward the state's attitude
toward architecture- -Serving on the California
State Board of Architectural Examiners- -The
significance of architectural history in an
architectural curriculum- -Questions the notion of
human equality.
Index , 386
vi
BIOGRAPHICAL SUMMARY
PERSONAL HISTORY:
Born: August 1, 1904, Rhodes, Greece.
Education; Saint Jean Baptiste French School, Rhodes;
Los Angeles Coaching School; B.A., University of
Southern California, Los Angeles.
MAJOR PROJECTS:
1936 Lipetz House, 1834 North Dillon Street, Los
Angeles .
1937 Driver House, 1830 North Dillon Street, Los
Angeles .
1938 Austrian House, Landa Street, Echo Park, Los
Angeles.
Polito House, 1650 Queens Road, Los Angeles.
Ross House, 2123 Valentine Avenue, Los Angeles,
Lee and Cady Warehouse, Ferndale, Michigan.
1939 George and Ida Latz Memorial Jewish Community
Center, 2317 Michigan Avenue, Los Angeles.
Gogol House, 2190 Talmadge Street, Los Angeles.
1940 Lukens House, 3425 West 27th Street, Los
Angeles .
1941 Strauss House, 3131 Queensbury Drive, Los
Angeles .
1942 Hallawell Nursery and Garden Center, San
Francisco.
1947 Katz House, North Hollywood.
1948 Ciro of London, branch jewelry shop, San
Francisco.
Ciro of London, jewelry shop, Beverly Hills.
vii
1950 Curtis House, 111 Stone Canyon Road, Bel Air,
Los Angeles.
Arts and Architecture Case Study House, 1080
Ravoli Drive, Pacific Palisades.
Shulman House, 7875 Woodrow Wilson Drive, Los
Angeles .
1952 Colby Apartments, 1312 Beverly Green Drive, Los
Angeles .
1955 Eichler Builders House (Saunders House), Palo
Alto.
1958 Adolph's Office Building and Laboratory, 1800
Magnolia, Burbank.
1959 McCauley Builders Houses, 20 and 24 Longfellow
Road, Mill Valley.
1961 San Pedro Community Hospital, 1300 West 7th
Street, San Pedro.
1965 Eleven All-Aluminium Houses, Hawaii.
1966 Alcoa Aluminum Office Tower (planned project).
viii
INTERVIEW HISTORY
INTERVIEWER:
Marlene L. Laskey, interviewer. Oral History Program,
UCLA. B.A., Political Science, UCLA; has researched,
organized, and conducted architecture tours of Los
Angeles .
TIME AND SETTING OF INTERVIEW:
Place: Soriano's office in Tiburon, California.
Dates: July 19, 20, 21, 1985.
Time of day, length of sessions, and total number of
hours recorded: Sessions lasted an hour and a half to
four hours. A total of nine hours of conversation was
recorded .
Persons present during Interview: Soriano and Laskey.
CONDUCT OF INTERVIEW:
The interview was conducted during an emotionally-
charged period. Overriding all else was the fact that
Soriano was being evicted from his office/residence of
thirty-three years. How and why he would be able to
relocate was uppermost in his mind. Secondly, there
were instances in which the taped discussion alluded
to dialogue that occurred when the tape recorder was
not engaged. Moreover, a succession of telephone and
visitors' calls caused repeated interruptions. Amongst
such pressing events and continuing interruptions it is
understandable that Soriano was very tired near the end
of the interview. Still, the end result justified the
timing of the interview; Soriano passed away in 1988,
several months before the completion of this transcript.
In general the interview follows a chronological format,
beginning with Soriano's childhood on the island of
Rhodes, Greece (from 1912 to 1947 ruled by Italy), and
subsequent migration to America, and continuing on to
his education and early influences in the field of
architecture. The bulk of the interview focuses on
Soriano's major projects and the various architectural
innovations he made involving the use of steel,
aluminum, and prefabricated materials.
Ix
EDITING:
Carey Southall, editorial assistant, edited the
Interview. He checked the verbatim transcript of the
interview against the original tape recordings, edited
for punctuation, paragraphing, and spelling, and
verified proper names. Words and phrases Inserted by
the editor have been bracketed. The final manuscript
remains in the same order as the taped material.
In February 1987 the edited transcript was sent to
Soriano, who reviewed and approved it. He made some
corrections and returned the manuscript in February
1988.
Ghana Lee, editorial assistant, prepared the table of
contents, biographical summary, and Interview history.
Bryce Little, editor, prepared the index.
SUPPORTING DOCUMENTS:
The original tape recordings of the Interview are in the
university archives and are available under the
regulations governing the use of permanent noncurrent
records of the university. Records relating to the
interview are located in the office of the UCLA Oral
History Program.
TAPE NUMBER: I, SIDE ONE
JULY 19, 1985
LASKEY: Okay, Mr. Soriano, we'll begin our interview at
the very beginning with some background on your family.
SORIANO: Okay. Well, my family was really a very — Oh,
what will I say? My mother was--didn't know how to write
or read, number one. And in those days, you know, she came
from a [family of] eleven children. Eight survived,
something like that. There were seven daughters and one
son.
LASKEY: Where was your mother born?
SORIANO: Was in Rhodes. It was part of Turkey then.
LASKEY: She was born in Rhodes?
SORIANO: Yes.
LASKEY: What was her name?
SORIANO: Was Rebecca, or we used to call her Bohora. In
the Hebraic language, Bohora means the first born female,
the oldest born woman. Bohor is for men. Any first born
is called Bohor, and Bohora--also because of Spanish Jews,
you see, she was a Spanish Jew — and therefore, Bohora, for
the feminine. Mean[ing] first — the oldest daughter.
LASKEY: Well, did she get to Rhodes, then, because of the--
SORIANO: From the Inquisition.
LASKEY: — expulsion of the Jews —
SORIANO: Yes, that's right.
LASKEY: --from Spain.
SORIANO: . That's right. Her grandparents came to Rhodes.
LASKEY: I see.
SORIANO: The way all the parents came, they were all in
the Mediterranean basin. So it happened that I was born
because of that. In there.
LASKEY: In Rhodes.
SORIANO : Yes .
LASKEY: Your father [Simon Soriano] was at--?
SORIANO: My father was also there. His grandfather came
from Bayonne, the southern part of France, you see, Basque
country. Also expelled from Spain. My father was quite a
scholar. [noise outside] I better close this door because
it's a mess with those tourists going to Angel Island.
LASKEY: Okay.
SORIANO: Okay, we continue. We were talking about my
mother, wasn't it?
LASKEY: Yes, we were.
SORIANO And then my father, I told you that he was — his
grandfather came from Bayonne, southern part of France.
And this is the tragedy of these damn persecutions, as you
know what happened to all the Jews in Germany and the same
thing [in] Spain. This is [the] tragedy of these
uncivilized human beings who think they have to have
scapegoats to do their dirty activities instead of loving
humanity and loving people. And as you were observing my
photograph there, of that little girl I told you, that she
came to the door and she wanted to have a photograph with
my beret. She's adorable. Already a woman at the age of
nine.
LASKEY: With a beautiful smile.
SORIANO: Absolutely superb. And intelligent, sensitive.
She plays the piano and cello. I mean, piano and violin.
And, just recently I met another girl by the name of
Hillary. She lives in Pomona with her mother, and father's
a pilot, I told you. And I went-- I saw her. I said,
"Most marvelous face." I get fascinated with faces, as I
am fascinated with blossoms or with excellent music or the
ballet for that reason, you see. But not with stories.
I love life in complete lucidity, as life is. And to
me that represents something that I relate to. Anything
else, fairy tales, stories, don't appeal to me because they
don't mean anything to me. That's somebody else's
concoction, and why should I worry about that, you see.
Now, this little Hillary was so sweet, and I went to
her and I said, "What a beautiful child! Who are you?"
And she gave me her name. Her mother told me she's in one
of the schools for talented children, for gifted kids.
LASKEY: Oh, really?
SORIANO: Yes. And we became very good friends. And then
they came over here, she wanted me to go to have dinner
with them at night. But I said, "No thank you, dear. I
can ' t . " But they were so sweet . And they came over here
and sat down and I said, "Oh, so beautiful." I say, "I
wish I could keep you here." And the mother said, "It
won't take one second; she'll stay." [laughter] And she
came and hugged me. I mean, imagine that lovely child, and
is just the opposite of what we're trying to make nowadays
because of all these horrible things that happen. We tell
the kids, "Now, don't go near somebody. Don't talk to
anybody, " you know.
LASKEY: Well, that's-- Of course, that's a double-edged
danger —
SORIANO: It is.
LASKEY: — because you lose-- The children must be
protected. On the other hand, they are losing that very
thing that you're talking about which is of a spontaneous
contact with life.
SORIANO: Exactly. And she sent me, just about two or
three weeks ago, she sent me two little snapshots of her.
She's nine years old, Hillary.
LASKEY: And she lives in Pomona?
SORIANO: Yes.
LASKEY: You met her in Pomona?
SORIANO: They live over there. I met her here. On the
dock.
LASKEY: I might just mention that we're at your office
which is on the wharf at Tiburon--
SORIANO: Yes, in Tiburon.
LASKEY: --looking out across the bay to a beautiful view
of San Francisco and Angel Island.
SORIANO: But as I told you, I may move from here because
my landlord is kicking me out because he wants to remodel
this and make — raise four, five, six times as much rent.
It's all money, money, money; nothing else. There's
nothing — Even though I've been here thirty- three years,
you see. But anyway, that's not the story which I'll
resolve. But it's painful still. It's traumatic due to
the fact that after all these years — Thirty-three years
I've been here paying him rent, with this great
discourtesy. However- -
Anyway, let's go back to the serious business which is
more important. You were asking me-- I told you that my
mother didn't know how to write or read. My father was
very well educated in many — knew several languages. And he
taught my mother how to write and read. And my mother knew
French, Italian and Spanish--and English when I brought
them to the U.S.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: --fluently. And then during the war.
fortunately, they escaped from Rhodes.
LASKEY: Now, which war?
SORIANO: Second war.
LASKEY: Oh, the Second World War.
SORIANO: The Second World War —
LASKEY: They were still in Rhodes?
SORIANO: They were still in Rhodes. Yes, I came from
Rhodes .
LASKEY: I know you did, but I didn't know that —
SORIANO: Well, they were there. They remained there. And
then when Germany and Italy were allies, you see, then
Hitler and the Italians at the time, they were becoming
very anti-Semitic. And then when Italy made peace with the
Allies and broke with Germany, then the Germans occupied
the islands and they had submarine and air bases. And they
took all the Italian citizens, all the Greek citizens, all
the Jewish population that was there- -Spanish Jews--which
were nothing but Spanish Jews. They all took them to the
camps, and I lost several aunts and so on. Fortunately, my
mother and father and a young brother I have- -I have two
other brothers [Vittorio and Alfredo] --two brothers, you
know. One was already in Israel. Then they migrated to
the Belgian Congo. It's the only place they could go.
LASKEY: The Belgian Congo?
SORIANO: Yes. Because we had a relative in the Belgian
Congo, that was the easiest way of going. Instead of coming
to America and the required quotas and — You know.
LASKEY: What would they do in the Belgian Congo once they
got there?
SORIANO: Well, they went there just to work. What else
could they do?
LASKEY: Was there work, I guess, is my question.
SORIANO: Well, yes. The Belgian-- Africa was always- -
They needed all the people, so-called whites. Yeah, when
they have stores and offices and professions, naturally.
Yeah, they used to, you know-- All the people have-- Africa
was run by the — among the Europeans.
LASKEY: Well, that's true. The bureaucracy.
SORIANO: The bureaucracy, exactly. They wanted to exploit
all the people there, naturally. Well, business is
business.
LASKEY: [laughter] Even during the war it's business.
SORIANO: Yeah, business even before, you see.
LASKEY: Do you still have relatives in the Congo? or
whatever it's called now? I must say, my current geography
is bad.
SORIANO: I don't know if I have — I don't think I have
anybody in the Congo.
LASKEY: Well, do you consider your citizenship, your
original citizenship, as Greek, Italian?
SORIANO: Italian.
LASKEY: Italian?
SORIANO: Italian, because, you know, the islands were
Italian to begin with. And after the war, they [the
Allies] gave them back to Greece.
LASKEY: No, I didn't know that.
SORIANO: Yes. That's exactly what happened. As a matter
of fact, I have passports — In my travels, you know, I
filled up so many passports. And originally I was an
Italian citizen from Italy, originally. Now I'm an
American citizen of course; I've been since 1930. And then
recently it's been Greek. [laughter]
LASKEY: I think of Rhodes as being Greek. That's why I
asked this.
SORIANO: Now. Now, yes. But Greek — Don't forget, Rhodes
was being stolen constantly by the Venetians, the Greeks,
the Turks, the Romans. Everybody wanted to have Rhodes
because it was the crossroads of the world and the islands
are superb. You've never been there?
LASKEY: I've never, unfortunately, been there.
SORIANO: If you ever go to Greece, go to Rhodes. Because
Rhodes is the jewel of the whole Aegean Mediterranean, as
an island, climatically as well.
LASKEY: Well, I've seen many, many pictures of it, of
course. It is stunning.
8
SORIANO: But it's beautiful. Really, you cannot imagine
how beautiful it is. Climatically and so on. And the
fruits — Everything tastes so good because of the soil
apparently-- No doubt, it is volcanic soil which gives
certain flavor. But anyway —
LASKEY: What was it like to grow up there?
SORIANO: Well, it was a small-- Islands are islands. You
know, it's very constrictive. You couldn't go to college
unless you were very rich, you couldn't have an
education. It's very difficult.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: Well, nothing — My father was my first tutor. He
taught me Greek, my first language. I used to write it
fluently and speak it. And then my other languages, which
we spoke at home-- Spanish, naturally. And I still, when I
lectured in Spain or in the Americas from Argentina down —
all the Americas I've lectured in--in my Spanish all the
time of Cervantes, which we still speak. I have a book
given to me by Felix Candela, you know, the famous Spanish- -
LASKEY: The architect, yes.
SORIANO: Architect -engineer . And with a lovely
inscription after he heard me lecture. He brought me the
book--and I'll show it to you — and he said-- Here, I think
we'll find it. Let's see, Candela. You see the Candela
there? You record this? I'll show you. This is very
interesting, what he wrote. See? This lovely inscription
he made.
LASKEY: Well, you'll have to read it to me. [laughter]
SORIANO: Yeah, I'll read it to you. I'll explain it to
you.
LASKEY: [laughter] That's wonderful.
SORIANO: This was at the university in Mexico City I gave
this. And that was in '64, July 1964, the Pan-American
Congress.
LASKEY: Twenty-one years ago.
SORIANO: Yes. I've been lecturing there many, many
times. That was at the opening of the [National
Autonomous] University of Mexico. I was a speaker there,
you know.
LASKEY: He did some of the buildings for the University of
Mexico?
SORIANO: Yes, he did. He did the scientific building
which is like a little wagon [hyperbolic paraboloid] . He
did a lot of restaurants and so on. And he brought me this
in the morning to the hotel, and I present this —
[translates inscription] "This is for my good friend
Raphael" — now, I never met him before, but I knew of his
work, of course — "with an affection and admiration more
sincere and a souvenir of a stupendous conference- -or
lecture — that you gave us in a language delicious that had
10
the flavor of the romance of the old days"--
LASKEY: Oh, that's wonderful. That's delightful.
SORIANO: Yeah. — "and of a discussion full of passion,
but very cordial and friendly. Mexico, July 1964, Felix
Candela." You see.
LASKEY: That's very impressive.
SORIANO: Yeah, it was very charming, you see. I have
things like that that have happened in my life, but more
appreciated there than I am in my own country here, really.
Even though I know many of my colleagues know me, but--
Actually, to tell you the truth, I'm wasted. My talents
are wasted. I've contributed [things] in housing that
nobody knows what I have done. We need thousands and
thousands of housing units. And I have a system that I
made: I can put four houses in one day made of aluminum
structures. They talk about ecology of using trees. I
haven't used a piece of wood since the year 1936.
LASKEY: That's amazing.
SORIANO: All my structures have been made of metal now.
If I hadn't done these efforts, nobody would have done-- We
wouldn't have had the steel houses today. When you find
all the assistants of mine, former assistants that have
done like — Pierre Koenig, Craig Ellwood, Joe [Joseph Y.]
Fujikuawa, and a few of the others who are doing steel
houses now would have never been. Because I made the
11
effort and nobody wanted to give a bid even then. And I
used to do them myself. I used to undertake-- I used to
tell the clients, "I'll build them for you. It'll be
cheaper anyway." And it was.
LASKEY: Well, I don't want to talk too much about that now
because we want to get into this in greater detail later
on.
SORIANO: Okay.
LASKEY: But I think it's interesting that Esther McCoy and
Reyner Banham saw you as a very important link between the
European architects and the modern American architects that
were to follow people like [Charles] Eames and Koenig and
Ellwood. And I think that that's something that we're
going to want to talk about a lot.
SORIANO: Okay, sure.
LASKEY: We still have you on Rhodes, however.
SORIANO: Okay. Well, in Rhodes, you know, as I told you,
it was very, very- -a sort of a small little island. You
know, islands are very constricted. And if you don't have
any money, you do what you can. Either you can go to
school--the high school type of thing or college type of--
Which is nothing, really, no-- And I wanted to really do
something and I wanted to have a profession. And then I
wanted to get away from Rhodes because my father was a very
interesting man and yet he was very cruel to me.
12
LASKEY: He was cruel?
SORIANO: Yes. He used to beat the hell out of me.
LASKEY: You're kidding.
SORIANO: No, I'm not kidding. I mean, they talk about
here: "Well, that's the home life, you know; therefore, he
was a criminal." [laughter] Well, that's not the whole
truth in life, depending on your chromosomes how your
behavior is. It isn't all just because you were abused.
Yeah, my father used to tie my two feet. He meant well,
because he thought gold that isn't pounded never shines.
He used to tell me. I used to tell him — I said, "I'm not
gold . " [ laughter ]
LASKEY: I'm a person! Was this considered an ordinary
pun-- I mean, was this punishment at the time?
SORIANO: The European way.
LASKEY: It was.
SORIANO: The European way, but he was way in
exaggeration. I mean, to tie a child, the feet, and give
it a nice bastonada, the cane stroke [on] the bottom of the
feet. And if I disobeyed him, he used to instruct my
mother not to let me go out and play with anybody.
LASKEY: How did your mother feel about that?
SORIANO: She hated it. She hated him for that. My mother
was a very beautiful, very intelligent, sensitive human
being even though she never went to school . But she would
13
have an innate intelligence and sensitivity. Whatever she
did was done exquisitely. Whether she did dentelle,
cooking, or pastry. In fact, she was so talented in doing
this — Nobody taught her. But she had this finesse within
herself. In fact, when they had weddings they used to ask
my mother to please help them, what to do and how to do
it. And my mother said, "Yes, you can crush the almonds,
but I'll do the rest." Yeah.
LASKEY: She sounds wonderful.
SORIANO: She was a beautiful human being, really. And my
father too was an exciting man, very interesting.
LASKEY: What was his name?
SORIANO: Simon. Simon Soriano.
LASKEY: How did he get to Rhodes from —
SORIANO: Well, from the same. They [his grandparents]
migrated there, I suppose, from the time of the [Spanish]
Inquisition. They went all over the areas.
LASKEY: Or went to France and then--
SORIANO: And then his father, and then they went to
Turkey, from there to Rhodes. Yeah. And this is the
interesting area there.
And of course I hated my father because of his
spanking, you know. My mother used to tell me, she said,
"Your father used to kiss you when you were asleep." Well,
imagine a child. I wanted-- That's his whole idea.
14
LASKEY: It did you no good when you were asleep.
SORIANO: The result is that I hated him. But then I have
compassion. I brought them here to America. I took care
of all their needs. Both my mother and father are buried
in Los Angeles.
LASKEY: Are they really?
SORIANO: I brought them there and I took care of their
needs since the age of fourteen. My father worked very
erratically or neurotically. He hated business.
LASKEY: [laughter] He was in business though?
SORIANO : No .
LASKEY: Oh, he wasn't. What did he do?
SORIANO: He was a very educated man, but he didn't have
any profession. And his father was quite wealthy at one
time. And when he got married to my mother, I understand
he [Simon Soriano's father] opened for them a--some kind of
dry goods store or something. And then he [Simon Soriano]
sold it because he felt it was--business is dishonest.
That was his thinking. Oh, he was a very interesting
man. He had a very —
LASKEY: I should say!
SORIANO: — very advanced ideas indeed, but very
impractical . But yet he would work for somebody doing the
same thing for wages instead of his own. Well, maybe he
was absolved by not participating in the rules.
15
LASKEY: [laughter] He wasn't making the rules.
SORIANO: Yes. So this was the character of the man. And
so, he was so-- He was an extremely honest person. Really.
LASKEY: Obviously a trait that he's passed on to you, too.
SORIANO: Possibly.
LASKEY: In the sense of rightness and —
SORIANO: I'm sure I have some of that--both of them--from
both parents. And I'm very proud of it, frankly, in spite
of all of that. And yet, afterwards when I grew up, I
understood the whole thing and I had compassion for him.
And, in fact, I took care of all his needs. When it was
time to go to an old-age home in Los Angeles, he was
already almost ninety- something. And I used to fly there
every week to take care of him and to see how he was. And
I used to sweep his floor and all that because I said, "I
can't afford to have somebody — " In those days, you know,
no Medicare or anything like that yet. And at the time, I
was married and I had responsibilities here. So it was a
difficult life, darling, but nevertheless I used to do
that.
LASKEY: Well, you must take a certain amount of pride from
that.
SORIANO: I do. I don't degrade it because I spent every
cent to-- My mother had cancer and she had two
operations. And I spent every little saving I have to- -for
16
her in Los Angeles because I love her. I love both of
them. And so, the result is that I'm in a condition I'm in
now. I never thought of myself, so-- Because I have
nothing, really.
LASKEY: Well, you have your work and you have a very good
mind. Well, didn't your father — I think I read that your
father taught you about music or taught you —
SORIANO: Yes, he bought a small violin for me because he
used to play the violin, the mandolin, the eukarina. He
was a very good musician, a very good — But he never did
anything as a profession. He was very talented and he
wanted me to learn the violin, but his method, again, was
very brutal. If I made a mistake--we used to practice
together--if I made a mistake on one of the notes, with his
bow, bang on my little fingers. But, I mean, I adore
music. Music- -my whole life revolves around music and yet,
I hated the violin.
LASKEY: Well, I think it's interesting that you love
music, having been introduced to it in that way. It's
interesting that you didn't run away from it.
SORIANO: No. But it was inside of my chromosomes — My
mother too loved music, and my brothers — I have a brother
here, a younger brother Alfredo, he also — He just cries
when he listens to Beethoven and stuff.
LASKEY: Did you have access to music on Rhodes?
17
SORIANO: No. Nothing of the sort, nothing. There was
nothing- -well, except the bands, military bands. They used
to play every Thursday, the Italian band. They used to
play all the operas, you know. But I hated them. I didn't
like the operas.
LASKEY: You didn't like opera? Do you like opera now?
SORIANO: No.
LASKEY: Or do you still think of it as a fairy tale? a
part of the — ?
SORIANO: It is. They are fairy taleish, most of them,
except some operas that take an exception: the operas of
[Giovanni] Paisiello.
LASKEY: I don't know those.
SORIANO: Well, I'll have to let you hear Paisiello.
You'll see how beautiful that is. In fact, I use that in
my lectures a great deal, Paisiello. He was, oh well,
seventeenth century. The time of Bach and that era. He
produced one, "The Barbiere of Siviglia, " "The Barber of
Seville."
LASKEY: That early?
SORIANO: Before Rossini.
LASKEY: [laughter] Before Mozart.
SORIANO: Yeah. And then it was one of the most
magnificent operas in the world. But, you see, the opera
then was different. The music was first, the dominant
18
factor. The story was secondary. Yeah. And what I detest
of most of these so-called soap opera is that —
LASKEY: Soap operas. [laughter]
SORIANO: Well, this is exactly [what] I'm telling you:
soap operas — is because the story's first, music becomes
sort of a — like a fumigator. Yeah.
LASKEY: Oh, dear.
SORIANO: Yeah. And this is why I detest most of the so-
called pop-rock junk that's with the kids today, and even
jazz. I think it's a lot of nonsense, in my humble
opinion. However, I think I'm right. Because it's nothing
but an artificial, contrived nonsense that has become a
cult instead of culture. And they try to make it into a
culture, but it isn't really. Because if you find anybody
doing their own thing [sings] tra-re-la-ra-la-voom-a-bum-a-
an-a-woo-woo-woo-woo following a rhythm; all right, big
deal, so what. [laughter]
LASKEY: Is that most jazz or all jazz that —
SORIANO: All jazz. All jazz.
LASKEY: All jazz you would include.
SORIANO: There's nothing, really. Jazz is — I've seen--
I ' ve made these studies of that and I have tremendous
numbers of records that I have. And I've had a lot of
thought about this. I really did. And I'm pretty
accurate. And I spoke with many composers that I know.
19
friends of mine. In fact, I'll be Interviewed for a [radio
station] KPFA, I believe, in Berkeley on a musical thing.
Somebody wrote to me and, "We are going to do some program
on music, discussing music."
LASKEY: What's your favorite music? I mean, favorite
area —
SORIANO: Well, Bach —
LASKEY: — I guess, would be fair.
SORIANO: Bach comes — Well, I have some of the ones that I
think they were serious people. There's Bach; there's
[Dietrich] Buxtehude before Bach. And then you find even
the eleventh-century English composers, the folklorists. I
think they're excellent. And folklores of all the
different peoples, folklores. They are mostly in dance
form. I say you never sing a song; you always dance it.
That's my theory. That's my own statement. You dance your
songs, you never sing them. And you find the best
folklores are always that. They can tell all the stories
of the world, but they're always danced; never sung.
When you start singing something, it becomes exactly
all these platitudes of the kids today: [sings] "Oh, I
love you, I love you, I loooove yoooooouuuuu . You come
into meeee. I looooove yooouuuu, come into meeeeeee." And
that's all there is to it. That's all you're hearing, the
same old- -same words repeated over, because they never
20
understood what it is, really, because music is something
else. Music transcends this so-called trivial nonsense
that you "want expressed." You don't have to express any
more than two lovers expressing — Worth anything. It's
just the one look has more already there. One warmth of a
bosom of a woman against your chest tells you lots of
things rather than the words of explaining it. In fact, in
Spanish, my mother used to say something very beautiful.
You see, we kept a lot of the Spanish tradition which is so
beautiful. And in fact, the cousin of my mother wrote
several books- -used to be quite a scholar- -wrote the
sayings of the Spanish Jews all over the Mediterranean, and
particularly of Rhodes. He has a book of sayings, the most
marvelous, all in Spanish. [tape recorder turned off]
LASKEY: Okay.
SORIANO: Let it be. It'll serve because it's mine; it
makes it more interesting, more humane.
We have a saying which is applicable to what I will
say, that "Ni escrito ni estampado se puede describir."
"Not in wri--even in writing or in painting or in printing
can you describe anything." Now, look at the depth of that
saying. Just reflect on that. Not even in writing or in
painting can you describe anything. Yeah.
But look at the vastness of the universe. Suppose I
wanted to-- I've seen many painters try to do that, which
21
is a lot of nonsense. They can't-- What can they do? Put
a couple of splashes of painting? Nonsense. Or like the
writers, too, with words and words and words — So what?
What do they say? Nothing, really. Just a little tiny,
tiny speck of nothing. So the wisdom of that is so
profound, so exquisite. Then if you really understand the
meaning of that, then you become silent. Unless you have
something to say. [Then] you say something. The only ones
who really can say about the universe are the people doing
research, investigation. They give their life's work
investigating, don't they? Yeah.
LASKEY: Yeah.
SORIANO: Okay. They validate, they find, and then they
state. Yeah. Now, before that the people who spoke about
things, they were mythologists. You know, they thought.
You know, they used to conjure and conjecture. And this
goes in the category of the medicine man. To me this
medicine man postulated all kinds of things without
validation. And they're clever, many of them. They used
to-- For example, some of the people used to make rain, you
know, like the shamasses, shamans. And they used to know
by observing-- They were clever. They used to observe when
the cloud formations. And then most of the tribe didn't
think much; they didn't observe much. They [the shamans]
said, "Now, let's make a dance. I want to make rain." And
22
sure enough, rain will occur because he knew already these
clouds will make rain. You see, this is how they become
the chiefs, you see. [phone rings] Excuse me, darling.
You're right, Diane, but not in our style manual. [tape
recorder turned off]
Go ahead.
LASKEY: Let's see. We — I think maybe —
SORIANO: Go ahead.
LASKEY: What we haven't talked about or gotten into or go
back to your education, how you-- How did you get educated
besides your father?
SORIANO: My educator [education] was very, very limited.
My father was the one who was my tutor till I was twelve or
something like that. Then I spent two years, three years
with the Christian brothers, [College] Saint-Jean-
Baptiste. They were the brothers. Catholic brothers.
Excellent schools. My father had an excellent education.
In other words, he wanted me to be educated, but he wanted
me to be the best . He was my first tutor because he didn ' t
want me to be contaminated with bad words with children.
He didn't want me to play. That's the reason he kept
shielding me. But, you know, I used to know every other
bad word.
LASKEY: [laughs] Of course.
SORIANO: Kids always do that. And my mother would not--
23
Even though he used to instruct my mother not to let me out
of her sight, not to let me out of their house. And of
course she wouldn't do that. She would let me play and I
used to learn every other bad word. And of course my
father hated that. And so then he sent me to the Saint-
Jean-Baptiste French school, the Christian brothers.
LASKEY: Now, was that in Rhodes?
SORIANO: In Rhodes, yes. They had wonderful schools.
They were excellent teachers, really. Excuse me, I have
to — [tape recorder turned off]
LASKEY: We're talking about your school, about--
SORIANO: Yeah. Well, the school was the French brothers
that were very excellent teachers, really. It was nice to
go there. I was not en pension, as they say. In other
words, I wasn't living in this school. They have also
people who live there; Catholic students, particularly, who
had kids used to go there. But, no. I used to go there
during the day at school . And so that was it .
LASKEY: Was it a regular classical education, that is,
what we would now call a liberal arts education?
SORIANO: Yes. Liberal arts, yes. They used to teach
everything: mathematics, geography, and all that. And so
then I wanted to migrate and secretly, without telling my
father, I asked — I had two — three aunts in Los Angeles,
actually, at the time.
24
LASKEY: How did they happen to be In Los Angeles?
SORIANO: They went to America. They came over here-- They
were sent, you know, they were my mother's sisters. They
used to try to send the daughters wherever there was
somebody to be married, especially from Rhodes and so on.
And that's what happened. They used to send them here, to
Africa, to Los Angeles. And that's because to have a
daughter was a complete liability. They have to have a
trousseau, they have to have dowry. Are you kidding? They
used to prepare the-- The minute the girl was born, they
used to freeze. My grandmother, I understand, after having
daughters after daughters after daughters, you know, she
was — When she had the one, the last one, who's here--my
Aunt Matilda in Los Angeles. She's past ninety-so many
years old — and she said her mother sort of se hielo,
[which] in Spanish means, "she froze," [laughter] to have
another daughter. Then after her a boy came. That was the
only boy they had.
LASKEY: Of eleven children? One boy?
SORIANO: Yes. And seven daughters lived, that's all.
LASKEY: Well, then they had seven daughters that had to be
"disposed of. "
SORIANO: They had to be — Absolutely.
Let me remove that. Is that yours or mine? Oh,
that ' s okay . Do you have enough room?
25
LASKEY: Yeah.
SORIANO: Put it on top of any place. Let me remove this
away. Then you can have that.
lASKEY: Oh, no. This is — Actually, this is just —
SORIANO: Here, darling. Let me remove this. This is no
problem. [microphone adjusted] Okay. All right. Okay.
Anyway, so that's the way I have enough — That is how
it happened for them to come to America. And I — My father
went to look for work in Egypt because he had a sister
there, married at the time. And so I took the occasion to
run away. And--
LASKEY: How old were you?
SORIANO: I must have been seventeen, eighteen, nineteen,
something like that. And my father was so mad that I
disobeyed him after all this severity, all this training
that I will be an obedient [son] and so on. And he would
absolutely not speak to me, wouldn't write to me, for
almost three years.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: Four years. I don't know.
LASKEY: But you did write to your mother.
SORIANO: Yes, of course. And I used to cry. I wanted for
my father to write and not to have that rancor. But then
he wrote to me. It was an interesting one. After three
years, "I forgive you, my son. Will you send me four
26
hundred dollars because I have to go to Africa to look for
a job." Yeah. And then I start crying that my father
finally wrote to me. Instead of saying, you know, "You--!"
LASKEY: How dare you!
SORIANO: Yeah. But no, I didn't. I had this tenderness
in my heart somehow. Really.
LASKEY: Did you send him the four hundred dollars?
SORIANO: Yes. And I went to my boss — I was working [at]
a fruit stand at the time, and I went to my boss, I said,
"Can you, perhaps, send my father four hundred — "
"Well, I can't give it to you, but I'll take you to
the Morris Plan Company."
In other words, the Morris Plan Company [loaned me the
money] . And I remember I thought I will never finish
paying. I was paying and paying interest. You know how
this thing- -
LASKEY: Oh, yes. Four hundred dollars — This would be —
SORIANO: In those days.
LASKEY: — in about the 1920s, wouldn't it?
SORIANO: Nineteen twenties, yes. In '26, '27, something
like that.
LASKEY: Now, you were born August 1, 1904, is that right?
SORIANO: And so that really was something.
LASKEY: Well, I think I read that your trip over here was
pretty horrendous, too, getting from Rhodes to the United
27
states.
SORIANO: It was very traumatic because I had the visa-- I
mean, I had the permit to come, I have the affidavits, and
I have all the examination, doctor certificates; I was in
excellent health. And here I come to Naples embarkation
point, we go to the American consul to get the visa, and,
"No." It was Just the time, in 1924, when they were
eliminating the Orientals from the quotas.
LASKEY: Of course. Of course. They were instituting a
quota system, period. The 1924 immigration law.
SORIANO: That's correct.
LASKEY: Right. Of course.
SORIANO: And then here I had the brunt of it. All of a
sudden, here I thought I will have free passage right away
within the week, and, "No, because we'll have to wait till
the [United States] Senate gives us the quotas for Italy
and everybody else." And I waited, I think, four months,
six months, something. I don' t--forget now. I'll have to
look it up in my records. And it was horrible because here
I didn't dare spend anything. I had just enough money for
the trip — to pay for the boat, passage- -which I borrowed
from my grandfather and an uncle.
And it was very, veiry traumatic. And then I used to
wash dishes and do a little interpreting sometimes for
foreigners, who used to come and they didn't know how to
28
speak Italian or French or Spanish, and — Nothing, just--
And wash dishes so I can get a plate of beans once In a
while. And I used to eat cheese and bread, chocolate and
bread the next day so I [don't] get tired of one. That's
what I did. And It was really — I lived In one little
room, and I used to take a bath once every two weeks In a
public bathhouse. And I used to take all my laundry with
me In a newspaper, and then while I was taking a bath I
used to wash It so nobody will know, you know. Wash my
laundry there and then bring it and hang it in my room
because I couldn't afford anything else. Who could afford
laundry or anything like [that]? It was one of those rooms
in Naples in the slum-- [phone rings] Excuse me. [tape
recorder turned off]
Okay.
LASKEY: All set.
SORIANO: Now, what were we saying? We should have another
came to — That is, I was in Naples and trying to get to
America. Well, finally, after several months, the Senate
already had the quotas for every country minus the
Orientals. You see, the Turks and all that, and they were
not allowed to come. But then I was-- We used to check the
list. The American consul used to paste [up] the list of
the visas that are given. And I saw the first ship leave,
second ship leave, third ship leave, fourth ship leave.
29
fifth ship leave. I think I was in the sixth and the last
ship, which was the Giulio Cesare. Julius Caesar was the
fastest ship of the Italian merchant marine. They used to
brag, "This is the fastest ship built — " Stabilizers, and
four propellers they had. As a matter of fact, during the
war the British sunk it in the Mediterranean during the
World War II.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: Yeah, because it was a troop carrier for the
Italians. But anyway, so just this last boat — I looked at
the list. There was a fear in my heart I won't be in the
quota. Then two or three from the last- -because my [name
is] Soriano, you know, S — then I saw my name three from the
last. And I was so happy. Finally. And I remember
tasting on the ship-- It took about five, six days to
traverse the trans-Atlantic. And I remember eating the
first Jonathan apple on the ship.
LASKEY: Really? [laughter]
SORIANO: Yeah. It was delicious. Yeah. And then after
that, when I came to America, I used to sell tons of that
in the fruit stand. [laughter] Anyway, so--
LASKEY: You came through Ellis Island?
SORIANO: Through Ellis Island, yes. And an interesting
thing that happened there. Then we were examined, you
know; stripped waist up. And all of a sudden-- Apparently,
30
I must have — My ribs were showing from not eating too
much. And all of a sudden they gave me a little green
piece of paper, I remember, with the words "send to
hospital." "Hospital" I could decipher.
LASKEY: That's right, you didn't speak English.
SORIANO: "Send to" — I don't know what it was. But I saw
most of them going in this line; they directed me to this
other line. And I went there. Immediately we were thrown
in a room. And some orderly came in and took me somewhere,
and all of a sudden he gave me new clothing, hospital
clothing. And I just about died. I thought they would
send me back for-- I didn't understand the reason. And I
remember the tenderness of that orderly. A man puts his
hand on my arm and he started to reassure me with a nice
smile. And so all of a sudden here I was in a huge room
with Chinese, Italians, all kinds of people; a huge
dormitory with beds, hospital beds. And so they took my
clothes, they gave me hospital type of thing. Then — I was
scared they will send me back. I didn't even know why.
LASKEY: And nobody there spoke- -could tell you what was
happening?
SORIANO: No. Not yet, until finally a lovely nurse came
in and spoke French. And she was very sweet. Immediately,
she took a liking to me. She brought me glasses of milk, a
box of chocolates. She was so sweet, really.
31
LASKEY: Is that why they kept you, though, was--?
SORIANO: They kept me to observe me, whether I have TB,
because I was undernourished. My ribs were sticking
[out]. They would not admit anybody with tuberculosis.
LASKEY: Oh, of course.
SORIANO: If you have any kind of disease, eye disease or
tuberculosis, you're not admitted.
LASKEY: So It wasn't just out of the goodness of their
heart to fatten you up a little bit. They wanted to make
you —
SORIANO: No, no, no, no. They wanted-- They want to be
sure. And then I was examined the next day, right away,
with I don ' t know how many doctors . They were checking me
all over. And I said to myself, "My god, what's--" I
didn't even know. I was — I knew I was always healthy. My
genes were okay, but —
LASKEY: That must have been — Must have been —
SORIANO: Most traumatic.
LASKEY: — worried, scary.
SORIANO: And I was so scared. I thought If they send me
back I will throw myself In the water, really, because I
had these debts Incurred. And I didn't want to go back to
my father. He would have killed me to begin with. Now,
this was what happened. But then, [among] some of the
Inmates that I talked to, there was one Italian fellow. So
32
I started talking with him. And he explained to me, "Ah,
this is for observation and, you know, if that chart on
your bed" --we had a little chart, everybody--he said, "when
that is removed, that means you're admitted."
And one Sunday morning, sure enough, that wasn't
there. I was admitted. But they used to serve me-- For
the first time I saw the most magnificent breakfast. At
home we used to have nothing but [a] piece of bread:
toast, bread, and tea. That's all at breakfast. That's
all we ate. French bread and tea. Nothing else. And over
here they had scrambled eggs, jam, cereal, milk, cream,
[laughter] Oh god!
LASKEY: The promised land.
SORIANO: This — I didn't have — I couldn't eat anything.
I was so scared and so frightened.
LASKEY: Really? Of course. I mean, not knowing the
language and not knowing what was going to happen to you.
SORIANO: It was absolutely traumatic; but I mean
traumatic.
LASKEY: Of course.
SORIANO: And it really sort of was a very shocking thing
to me. However, the nurses were so superbly beautiful; so
charming, so gracious, really. Everybody was nice. The
impression I have of the Americans is really lovely, kind
people. And then when they removed that, all of a sudden
33
they asked me to dress, and that's it. They gave me two
lunch boxes and they put me on a train that took six days
and five nights or five nights and six days, I don't
remember. Went through Chicago and all that. Well, my
destination was California where my aunts were, you see?
LASKEY: How did you travel across the country not knowing
the language?
SORIANO: Well, you don't. It's very difficult. I sat in
a seat, naturally — There was an English boy sitting next
to me. And he was so selfish. He used to be close to the
window. I wanted to see what's going on and he didn't want
to; he wanted to get the shade--the sun out. He used to
close it. And I used to say-- I had to do this.
[pantomiming] And he used to take, like that. And so
finally one day I just got-- I said-- I used to signal to
him. And he said, "Me, English!" like that. And I said,
"Me, Italian!" [laughter] I said it like that. And then
he let me open that.
LASKEY: That's wonderful.
SORIANO: He really got scared and let me open it so I can
look at the--what's outside.
LASKEY: Well, of course. If he didn't want to look out
the window, he could have at least just changed places with
you.
SORIANO: Well, he was absolutely, I suppose, a very
difficult young man, I suppose, I don't know--
34
TAPE NUMBER: I, SIDE TWO
JULY 19, 1985
SORIANO: So, as I said, the train stopped in Chino and a
lady got on the train. She came in then; I told her what
happened. She introduced me to another Italian. So she
starts talking to me in Italian. And she knew a little
Italian. Not very much, but still-- I said, "You have a
very impolite nephew." I said, "I wanted to look at the
view and he won't let me. He wanted-- Whenever he wanted
he would close this, and this would be ingracious." And
she says, "Oh, he shouldn't have done that. Shouldn't
have." She gave me the address, I should come back and
visit them and so on. I didn't bother. But anyway, what
else do we have? So then that was it.
Then my poor aunts were out of their minds because
here they know I left Naples, and here I come to Ellis
Island and should be coming directly, and here I was a
whole week detained. They didn't know whatever happened to
me. Then they were trying to look, and they got through
some political people, the-- Somebody, I don't know, who
knew somebody- -they tried. Finally, they checked, and
Ellis Island said, "Yes, Raphael's been admitted. He's on
the train . " And so that ' s what happened . And then I took
a taxi, with the last five dollars I had, to Santa Barbara
Avenue [now Martin Luther King, Jr., Boulevard] where my
35
aunt was and surprised them. So that's the way it was.
And then in the meantime when I was traveling, you
know, I didn't know a word of English. I didn't know how
much things cost. I had just a limited amount; five or six
or seven dollars, ten dollars, whatever I had. I finished
the lunch boxes; most of it I hated. I ate the sardines, I
ate the apples and the crackers — They had biscuits [which]
were just like salt crackers. I hated those damn things,
[laughter] And then the other thing was salami, which I
never eat; I hate it. And then the cheese- -
LASKEY: An Italian who hates salami?
SORIANO: Well, yes.
LASKEY: Isn't that a contradiction in —
SORIANO: We never ate this kind of a things, no. And, as
I told you, my mother was a superb cook. We ate some
really good, sensible things. And cheese-- The cheese
looked like soap to me, the American cheese. I'm used to
Parmesan and all these nice tasty cheeses.
LASKEY: Gorgonzola.
SORIANO: So-- Not so much the Gorgonzola. We used to eat
those harder cheeses, yeah. And this is what happened
here. And so here I was.
And I tried to get, with change — The coffee man came
in — I used to get a cup of coffee. Or if they have
something sweet, you know, [that they're] selling, I used
36
to get that. That's all I could know. But go to the
restaurant, where they had a restaurant in with the train,
I wouldn't dare because I didn't know the costs or
anything. We used to stop in Chicago and I used to go to
the little coffee shop. I used to point to pies. That's
all I know: apple pie. I ate so many apple — so many pies,
[laughter] I detest it. I didn't want to eat any more, of
any sweet, ever.
LASKEY: Ever.
SORIANO: That's all I did, survive for a whole week:
coffee and sweets. And that was it. Then I was in
California, where California was a little village then.
Especially Los Angeles.
LASKEY: Well, Los Angeles must not have been that much
different from Rhodes climate-wise, was it?
SORIANO: Climate-wise was very close, but not quite.
Rhodes was — Yes, it's very similar. It's benign climate;
very clement. And we have orange blossoms, it was nice.
Flowers and all that, which was lovely. But Rhodes is full
of flowers; beautiful things really. And Los Angeles was
very close [to Rhodes' climate]: oranges and the orange
blossoms I love. My mother used to make the most beautiful
pastry with them, with the blossoms of the oranges. With
almonds .
LASKEY: In the pastry?
37
SORIANO: She used to make beautiful confiturerie
(preserves), you know, pastries, with orange blossoms, the
petals of the orange blossoms in almonds. You don't really
know how delicious that is.
LASKEY: Oh, it sounds wonderful.
SORIANO: My mother was a superb woman, really. Yeah. She
was really a girl. She could do things with such a
finesse. Ooof.
LASKEY: Did she teach you how to cook? Did you learn any
of those?
SORIANO: No, but it came in through osmosis. I cook
beautifully.
LASKEY: That's what you'd said.
SORIANO: I'm sorry I didn't cook for you, but maybe we'll
see towards the end of it; maybe [with] my friend, love of
mine-- We'll see what happens; maybe when we can have the
time.
LASKEY: Well, you came to Los Angeles in 1924.
SORIANO : Yes .
LASKEY: It must have been very different from the Los
Angeles you see now.
SORIANO: Oohfff, yes, yes, yes, yes. Los Angeles was very
clement, very lovely, very few cars actually. And as far
as you can-- Santa Barbara Avenue and Western [Avenue] was
about as developed — the only thing. The rest of it was
38
just small town. And from then on to the beach were just
bean fields cultivated by Japanese. The Red streetcar line
used to go from downtown. Hill Street, to all the
beaches. Yeah. Red streetcar lines only. And there were
hardly — There were no buses. There were streetcars all
over. Used to take a bus from Fifth [Street] and Hill or
Third [Street] and Hill Street where I worked in a fruit
stand to Santa Barbara Avenue and Western. Used to take
about half an hour with a streetcar. Used to cost a
nickel. I didn't even know how to say [take it]. I said,
"Take-it," you know. "Take-eet." [laughs]
LASKEY: "Take-eet." [laughter]
SORIANO: I used to say that. You know, you eventually
learn the language. [tape recorder turned off] Okay.
LASKEY: There we go.
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: So you were in Los Angeles in 1924 and you're
living with your aunts.
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: Had you thought about being an architect at that
point?
SORIANO: No. I wanted to go to the university though;
that was the first thing. But I wanted to be a composer.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: That was my greatest joy in the world. Or
39
architecture was close, but composition- -music- -was my
greatest joy.
LASKEY: Had you done any composing?
SORIANO: No. I bought a violin immediately. First money
I could make I bought a violin right from Hill Street--Hill
and Third. There was an old violin maker and so on. I
bought an old copy of a French Maggini [violin] . I still
have it. And I remember the first monies that I could
save, and I put it to a violin. And I was taking lessons
from a certain Mr. Hunter. Mr. Hunter-- Hunter, I think it
was. His son-in-law or his son, I believe, was a violinist
in the Philharmonic in Los Angeles. But he was a
teacher. Was quite an old gentleman. He used to write his
notes on the little envelope instead of — You throw away
all the paper, old envelopes, he used to keep all the back
side of envelopes to write little notes and little
assignments. In other words, nothing was wasted, even
then .
LASKEY: Right.
SORIANO: Today, you know-- I remember I have assistants,
you get a roll, a ream. If they write three lines like
that they [throw it away]. I said, "Look, I'm paying for
that." I say, "You don't have to waste a whole page for
one line." And, you know, that's how spoiled we are,
really. Well, maybe that's part of our society. I don't
40
know. But, so this [is] what I wanted to do; I wanted
music. And then I entered the university, of course, and
the first time — Then I was taking English in the Los
Angeles Coaching School.
LASKEY: Where was the Los Angeles Coaching School?
SORIANO: It was right on, I believe, on Fifth and Hill
streets —
LASKEY: Fifth and Hill.
SORIANO: — on top of one of the buildings there. Near the
Philharmonic Auditorium, right near there.
LASKEY: And it was just to teach —
SORIANO: They used to teach —
LASKEY: --to teach English--
SORIANO: They used to teach English, and they had also
students there that--they couldn't pass their exams. They
used to coach some rich people to prepare for their exams
also. And so the teachers took a great liking to me
somehow. I don't know why. But anyway, they, the director
of the school liked [me] , and then I told him that I wanted
to go to the university to study.
LASKEY: Now, this is the University of Southern
California?
SORIANO: Southern California, yes.
LASKEY: Why--
SORIANO: Well, I didn't know--
41
LASKEY: Oh, oh, oh.
SORIANO: — which one, but I wanted to study. I wanted to
go to the university and I said composition, and maybe [in]
architecture, I had possibility. Then I was still sending
money home to my parents. Right from the first moment I
came to America. Because I start working at the age of
fourteen. I used to give my mother the whole — everything I
earned. And then I used to ask her, "Can I have a soloo
[Italian penny] — like one cent to buy chocolate?"
Remember, I made the money for the whole family and I had
to ask my mother. I mean, this is the way we were brought
up. But that's where my nature, see? I gave it to my
mother and I asked my mother to give me —
LASKEY: To give it to you.
SORIANO: Yeah. And this is the whole thing. And then I —
didn't know. I wanted to learn something and I knew Rhodes
was awful. I came to America and this [is] what I wanted
to do. So, and all the credentials I have is some
certificates from the College Saint- Jean-Baptiste, the
Christian brothers. And that wasn't recognized by the
college.
LASKEY: By ' SC [University of Southern California]?
SORIANO: Yeah. They didn't recognize it. The director of
this coaching school, and there was a professor of
chemistry [Mr. Driscoll], just took such a liking to me.
42
They used to invite me, all the holidays, to their house,
and they really were very gracious, really. And then he
took me to USC, [to] the dean of the school, the coaching
school. Mr. Driscoll, I believe was his name. I forgot
his name. I'm not so sure yet. [Arthur Weatherhead]
LASKEY: Okay.
SORIANO: And then he took me there and he told them I was
conversant in languages and also how well I was conversant
in arithmetic also. And they said then — I forgot who it
was, the admissions then--he said, "Well, can you pass an
exam on this two things?" He said, "Well, sure." I took
the exams. They gave me junior mathematics and I passed it
[snaps fingers] like this. And then they gave me languages
also.
LASKEY: No problem with languages.
SORIANO: So I was admitted, provided I stay in school with
a B average, which I did. And that's how I was admitted.
LASKEY: Were you there on a scholarship since ' SC was very
expensive, or is very expensive?
SORIANO: No, no, no. I was paying my way.
LASKEY: How did you do that?
SORIANO: It was difficult. At the end of the month I
couldn't hardly save and I met, in the fruit stand on Fifth
and Hill, a Dr. [Ren6] Bell6. I think Esther [McCoy]
mentions that, but she doesn't- -I don't think she
43
understood. She's confused a little bit of the statements
I made. Professor Bell6 was the dean of the school of
French- -Department of French at USC. He came in from a
concert from the Philharmonic Auditorium, around the corner
from the fruit stand where I was working, you know.
LASKEY: It's not there anymore.
SORIANO: I don't know where it is. It was right there.
It was the only concert auditorium. And in fact, that's
where I saw [Richard J.] Neutra and Frank Lloyd Wright. I
met them there, both of them, giving lectures one after the
other, yeah, in that little auditorium--Philharmonic
Auditorium. And so he came to buy some fruits from me and
we both had accents. And we started talking; exchanging
some thoughts. And he said, "What are you doing here?" I
said, "I'm a student at USC." "Oh, I'm a French
professor." And so immediately we were exchanging
courtesies and he asked me to come and visit him and I
did. And he had a charming wife, Gertrude. We became very
good friends, all of us. We discussed music and all that
for the first time. I said, "Oh my god, I had finally a
friend." Because at school, I brought in my Victrola when
I went to USC. I was playing Bach [on] one of those crank
cases.
LASKEY: You took it with you onto the campus?
SORIANO: Yes. I took it then to listen to Bach while I
44
would draw and all that. And the students used to say — the
boys particularly — "Oh, cut that stuff, Soriano!"
[laughter]
LASKEY: Did they really?
SORIANO: Yes. And then when we used to take life
drawing. I had that playing while the model was being
drawn, you know. They usually were European models that
were either French or German or Italian girls. And they
were very, sort of, sophisticated. They loved the
beautiful music.
LASKEY: Of course.
SORIANO: And of course they loved that. And the American
girls, the coeds were wonderful. They were sensitive.
They loved this good music. The boys hated it: "Oh,
Soriano! Cut that music!" And the girls used to say, "Oh,
no! We like that." And the model said, "I'm not going to
pose unless Mr. Soriano plays his music."
SORIANO: And that's the way —
LASKEY: That's great.
SORIANO: Yeah. This is the way-- This is true. And this
was in Paul Semple's office. Paul Semple was the professor
of painting which we all had to take courses in: life
drawing and painting.
LASKEY: When you were taking-- As part of the architecture
curriculum?
45
SORIANO: At USC, yes, yes, yes. It was in the old little
building which was the music building afterwards.
LASKEY: Well, why — just to backtrack just a second--how
did you happen to settle upon architecture rather than
composing?
SORIANO: I'll tell you why. I had to send home money
every month. I was reflecting: composition is hardly any--
You don't make money. I discussed this with-- I forgot
now. Oh, yes. I met a violinist at the fruit stand,
curiously enough; a friend of [Arturo] Toscanini. He was a
violinist from [the] Chicago Symphony Orchestra. And he
used to tell me "Se vuol trovare Parini, cercate
Toscanini." "If you like to find Parini, look for
Toscanini." Now, this just came into my mind; I remember
distinctly. We became very good friends. I still have
some of his letters he used to write to me from Chicago.
And was a violinist. Charming person. I made so many,
many friends over there.
LASKEY: Now, you were working? That's how you earned your
money? Working in the fruit stand —
SORIANO: Yes. Working in the fruit stand. Absolutely.
LASKEY: --on Fifth and Hill?
SORIANO: Yeah. And also, I worked in Grand Central
Market. And then I graduated to Fifth and Hill. And so
then discussing that, and he said, "Ah, compositioning--" I
46
remember him telling me, he says, "You can't. Even
violinist is kind of hard." So then I decided something
more practical.
LASKEY: Yeah.
SORIANO: And so I was then illustrating also, part-time
with the zoology department, some foraminifera, which were
the sediment from the Galapagos Islands where the [John
Allan] Hancock expedition in Los Angeles — You remember
Hancock —
LASKEY: Oh, yes, yes. The Hancock Hall.
SORIANO: — where they used to bring all the sediment from
the Galapagos Islands from his--with his boat--to USC, to
the zoology department for analysis. And I made all these
drawings which are in this Smithsonian Institution.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: I may have several thousand drawings there, or
hundreds, I don't know, which they-- Dr. [Irene] McCulloch,
I believe. She was a very lovely, tall, zoologist. She
took a liking to me so I used to do all the drawings for
her through the microscope, from a little sand pinpoint.
LASKEY: Oh my goodness.
SORIANO: And I still draw the ventral and dorsal in
pencil. Yeah. I still have some drawings so they are--
they'll come in my book. And so then I used to earn some
money doing that. And I told her what I wanted to do and I
47
was already admitted at USC. Then she took me to the dean
of the school of architecture herself. And so I remember
it was Dean Weatherhead, a very strange man. And he said,
"Oh, you have a nice name," and this and that. [laughter]
"But you don't make money in architecture. You have to
have a rich man, or inherit money, to make money."
That's the first thing he told me. Anyway, finally, I
settled down. I wanted to study architecture; I did.
And of course, having met my friend Bell6, Dr. Belle,
he used to co-sign for me for every semester to--
LASKEY: For the fees?
SORIANO: For the fees. It was expensive. And I was
always behind the eight ball, always in debt.
LASKEY: Right.
SORIANO: And I remember when I graduated my diploma was
folded in two, three inches--fold that still shows [on] my
diploma — and that's where at the end behind those things
you won't even see — where they kept it in the vault until I
paid. And I paid it after I had an accident, years ago, in
1937. Imagine that. I graduated in '34. And they were
trying to fail me because I wasn't talented. The first
year I got--
LASKEY: Because you weren't talented?
SORIANO: Yeah, that's what the dean told me.
LASKEY: Why — How did he come to that?
48
SORIANO: Well, here, let me tell you. The first year I
did very well. I had first mention, first place, first.
In other words, I had first mentions, the best that they
can give you because we used to make the [architectural]
orders. In other words, we used to draw Corinthian, the
Ionic columns, and all the orders. And anybody with a
little dedication and a little dexterity could do them, and
I did them very well. But the second year we started
getting problems. They gave us the design of a little bank
or a little, whatever, a little small building. And I used
to try to design them in my own concept of what
architecture should be rather than copy. They used to tell
us to design it in English or in French [style], and I
refused to do it. I used to say, "What is a style? That
doesn ' t mean anything . "
LASKEY: You started talking a little earlier and I
interrupted you on the curriculum, and as I gather, it was
strictly a Beaux Arts —
SORIANO: Oh, yes.
LASKEY: --curriculum, very classical.
SORIANO: They used to give you the thing and a sheet of
paper, eight [inches] by ten. Beaux Arts style, and they
used to prescribe the style: do it in English or do it in
Spanish. Do it in whatever. They thought-- And I used to
question that. And I refused to do it. Then, who am I? A
49
punk student. Now, I used to read a lot of French books
also. And talking with Bell6, RenS Bell6, he used to
clarify and give me more courage of my beliefs. And he
used to give me some very interesting things of Alain, the
French professor at the Sorbonne who was a very, very great
thinker. And then, besides that, I, reading the French
books that I had, I used to correspond with Remain
Rolland. You know who Remain Rolland was?
LASKEY: No, I don't.
SORIANO: You know Thomas Mann?
LASKEY: Yes.
SORIANO: Well, you should know Remain Rolland. You see,
you Americans don't know.
LASKEY: Don't know.
SORIANO: Remain Rolland, the stature of that man is one
hundred stories or more higher than Thomas Mann in stature
and depth of thinking. He wrote so many, many books. And
I corresponded with him and he answered me. He sent me two
photographs and also seme letters that I have which will be
in my book. Now, he wrote the Life of Beethoven, Beethoven
and Goethe, Beethoven the Creator. He wrote three lives on
Beethoven. He wrote the Life of Gandhi, one of the most
beautiful life you could imagine. He wrote the Life of
Michelangelo .
LASKEY: Really?
50
SORIANO: He wrote many, many lives — That's how-- This is
the tragedy of our school. Unless it is Germanic or
English, you have no idea what are the literary geniuses
that occurred in our society. And Remain Rolland's one of
the greatest things that ever happened in our century.
He's known all over the world. He's been translated in all
the languages in the world. But our schools--they're all
ignorant. You know, an interesting thing happened. I was
in London. I spoke to the Royal Institute of British
Architects and I gave another lecture to the architecture
consultants or some such thing. And then I talk of the
music of [Edgard] Var6se because I always, in my lecture, I
use music and I use other things. And there was — I
mentioned Varese — immediately there was one man in the
audience, one architect, he said, "Oh, Mr. Soriano, that's
wonderful! I'm glad you mentioned Varese." "Well, I'm
delighted for you. For the first time I heard somebody
that knows Varese." Most people, they don't know. They
know the pop records, they know junky, but they don't know
Varese, the great master. Really. That's that man over
there. Yeah. That photograph you see next —
LASKEY: Oh, really?
SORIANO: The one above. See?
LASKEY: Yes.
SORIANO: That black and white.
51
LASKEY: Var6se?
SORIANO: That's Edgard Vardse. He was the modern composer
of our century. Yep. Yep. Now, he used to live In that
same row of houses I told you, on that street where Tom--
Man Ray, you know, the photographer?
LASKEY: Man Ray, yes.
SORIANO: Varese, Knud Merrild, [Agnes] Varda, and Charlie
Chaplin; all these were in the same, in the one whole long
street around that area in Hollywood. Yeah. And I was
there, you see, right in there. And I was very good
friends with Man Ray. In fact, Man Ray did two portraits
of me.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: Yes. This will be in my book.
LASKEY: That's very impressive.
SORIANO: Yeah. And we had marvelous evenings, marvelous
discussions with these people.
LASKEY: I imagine that the conversation must have been on
a rather high plane.
SORIANO: It was. It was more international, more
exciting. And instead of all this boorish junk of these
people — When I look at, really, the convention we had in
1958 in June in San Francisco--in 1985, I mean, instead of
'58--for the American Institute of Architects, I tell you,
it ' s enough to absolutely disturb anybody who has any
52
sensitivities. The low quality, the debasing type of
nonsense — professional people, architects, to resort to
these banalities! God! Awful! No wonder nobody respects
the profession. Really we bring it upon ourselves, that.
LASKEY: Oh, absolutely.
SORIANO: But anyway — What was I telling you? I don't
know, I forgot.
LASKEY: We were talking about 'SC, the Beaux Arts school
and the —
SORIANO: Oh yeah, the Beaux Arts. And then I--I just
finally, I used to question my teachers. "Oh, Soriano, you
make me sick." Because I used to ask, "But why this? Why
that?" "What's the style?" I said, "I don't understand
what an English style is or Spanish style. Is it the tile
roofs or what? What is this? This is purely a mannerism
which I don't think this is architecture--" I used to
question that and earn enmity. "Well, you're a student;
you have to learn." I said, "Well, I can think, too." I
used to question them. And, of course, I was in complete
isolation. I used to get nothing but D's, failing.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: Yes. They wanted for me to quit. The dean said,
"We won't let you graduate. You're not talented. Maybe
you'll be better off if you open up a fruit stand." That's
what the dean- -the same dean who told me I had a beautiful
53
name and this and that, and that I was getting beautiful
awards in the first year, you see: first mention, place
first. But the second year they made my life miserable.
LASKEY: And that was because of your ideas?
SORIANO: That's right. Because I questioned them. Then,
Paul Semple, the painter whose--where we used to take life
drawing, he sort of began to realize the music-- All he
knew is this fellow Tchaikovsky. [laughter] Beyond that,
he didn't know any music. And I used to try to tell him
that there were more. There were some others, Scarlatti,
there were other-- There were all the Couperins, Rameau,
the French wonderful composers, and a few others of the
past centuries, and some lovely folklores. And he wanted- -
he was very eager to learn more. He said, "Will you-- You
come over here and just bring your table here. You do the
work in here, in my office, and you can play the music.
It's all right." So I did. And I wasn't taking a single
course from any of the professors from sophomore on.
LASKEY: From —
SORIANO: The sophomore year on.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: How did —
SORIANO : Nothing .
LASKEY: How did you do that?
54
SORIANO: Well, I graduated, I said, in French literature —
in architecture and French literature, I tell that. I
graduated in architecture and French literature because I
was taking — I used to tell Bell6, my friend, I say what
they were doing to me. He says, "Don't worry." He says,
"You need to take elect ives. Come and take some French
classes. You don't even have to attend class. You know
already French. You'll get straight A's. You got so many
grade points to compensate your main subject." The other
subjects I could get C's average at least. But in
architecture they were purposely failing me, giving me D's
so I won't graduate. And so I, from year to year, I fooled
them. [laughter] And the dean used to say, "Are you still
here?" [laughter] Like that's what happened. So help
me . That ' s what happened .
LASKEY: Did they really?
SORIANO: This is the true story I'm telling you; not a
word romanticized or lied or fantasized.
LASKEY: Well, how did you feel about that? I mean, wasn't
it very difficult to continue to go on?
SORIANO: It was difficult, it was difficult. But somehow
I have a tenacity and stubbornness in my knowledge,
somehow, even though I'm ignorant. Or maybe stubbornness
in my ignorance , I don ' t know . But somehow I know what I
know and what I feel, and what I know, it was right. And
55
to this day I can tell you I'm right, by golly, and that's
true. I have this kind of assurance when I see something,
and I know when it's not right. I can tell it to you,
too. And if I make an error, I will tell you. I will be
the first one to admit it. I have this kind of
assurance. People who know me know that, so people who do
not know me misunderstand me. They think, "Oh, well,
opinionated this and that." That's okay, I don't care,
[tape recorder off]
LASKEY: But eventually, then, they did graduate you?
SORIANO: Well, I graduated in spite of themselves and
contrary to what they thought I would do. They didn't know
that I was getting these extra grade points. They couldn't
say no because I did make--I took electives. I was within
the law. And even though I got a D in my major subject,
but I — in the final analysis I got C average so I could
graduate; and I did. That was in 1934.
Now, I ' 11 tell you an interesting story pertaining to
that. A few years ago I was teaching at Pomona State
University [California State Polytechnic University,
Pomona] . There was there a Professor Chilynski, Richard
Chilynski. When I lectured, he asked me to come in, the
president of the university- -wanted to see me, in Pomona.
And I went, and then he [Chilynsky] told him. He said,
"Well now, Mr. Soriano doesn't know this," he said to him
56
[the president]. He said, "I want to tell you something
very interesting now. I went to USC to enroll to the
College of Architecture and then I talked to the dean." It
was the same dean. Dean Weatherhead, and he, after
interviewing with him [Chilynsky] , he told him that he was
not talented; he would not make a good architect. He had
this kind of attitude. This man, he will tell you yes or
no. He's on Judgment without understanding what-- He said,
"No, we discouraged him." So he came out of the door of
the dean's room very distraught. And then in the patio was
a professor; his name was [Clayton M.] Baldwin.
LASKEY: Baldwin?
SORIANO: Baldwin. We used to call him Baldy. Now,
Baldwin was the only professor that was very charming, very
lovely; more humane than the others. Baldwin would never
tell me not — all that. He would never cut me. He was a
very gracious person, really. And he saw this Chilynski at
the door with a face dejected. He said, "What's the
matter?" Well, he told him the story that he wanted to
study architecture; the dean said no. He said, "Come to my
office. I'll tell you a story." So he told him. He said,
"There was a young man by the name of Raphael Soriano few
years before you, and he told him the same thing. Look at
him now. He's this very famous architect." And he told
that to the president of Pomona State University. Yeah,
57
and that was maybe four, five years ago, something like
that. I didn't even know that this thing happened to him,
too.
LASKEY: That's very interesting.
SORIANO: Yeah. And he's an architect. He's one of the
best teachers we have in Pomona there; excellent man.
Perfect. You see? How they can destroy you with some of
these complete arbitrary decisions by one man.
LASKEY: Oh, absolutely.
SORIANO: Yeah. Well, this is what happens in our
universities today with all these teachers who are
destroying these lovely mentalities of the kids. Again, in
Pomona, last year I think it was, I gave a criticism to one
of the classes. There was a black girl over there, and I
was criticizing her problem, or somebody else's problem,
and I mentioned why [I said] these things. And I said,
"Well, I won't let the professors-- They shouldn't have let
the kids go that far without guiding them properly in
this." She jumped up, "Why doesn't anybody-- Why don't we
have teachers like that to tell us these things? I'm so
glad you did this!" She started shouting and telling me —
[laughter] I don't know if the faculty liked it, not when--
I'm sure the reverberations went through.
LASKEY: I'm sure.
SORIANO: And then when I used to go into the class
58
criticizing, everybody used to come there. They used to
fill the room. They wanted to hear me talk and blast. And
yet there were other students who were static- -doing all
this postmodern garbage. They thought they really were
doing great. And in fact, they used to be very insolent.
And I said, "Well, I don't think this is the direction of
architecture." "Well, that's your opinion!"
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: Yeah. One girl, second-year girl, told me that
last year. And I said, "Yes, it's a fifty-year-old opinion
versus two years of yours, yes?" And I said, "You're a bit
insolent, aren't you?" I just tell her that. And of
course she was a little red in the face. She tried to talk
and all the professors stopped her. And then she tried to
bring me a little cup of juice or something afterwards to
make up so that — Well, that's nothing. Even three, four
years before that there was a student- -I think it was
either a senior or a graduate student- -we were discussing
that. Then some of the professors were taking his side.
They were arguing contrary to what I said, which is all
right .
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: This was in the class —
SORIANO: In the class.
59
LASKEY: — on criticism?
SORIANO: Yeah, on criticism. We were criticizing the
project of someone — I was philosophically telling him why
I thought this is not. And we were talking about the arts,
you know, and why all this artiness, all this personal
expression is disastrous. And, of course, the teacher's
offended. That was his own teaching, you see, that I hit.
LASKEY: Well, if it was dealing with postmodernism, if
he's a postmodernist, of course it would be--
SORIANO: It would be —
LASKEY: Right.
SORIANO: Of course, he would be gored with that and will
have to fight. And said, "Well, Mr. Soriano," this and
that and the other. And of course that student was
probably aware I was giving some comments. Again, he said,
"Well, it's your opinion." I said, "Well, yes, that's my
opinion. Then why did you come here for? What do you come
to school for? Since you have an opinion, I have an
opinion, there's no point of discussing anything, is
there?" Like that. Of course, he could not answer that
one. And this is the tragedy. You see, we spoil them by
just making it, "Well, do whatever you want." I played a
tape in some of my lectures when they- -public lectures that
I give — of Casals, Pablo Casals, recorded, which I did,
when he was giving master classes.
60
LASKEY: You attended them?
SORIANO: At USC. And he said — he was telling the
students, "No, it's not — it's not allegretto, no. It's not
playful. It's a big thing about Bach," he said. "Big
thing." And then he lowers his voice and he says, "No, you
don't do what you want. No, no, no. You do what's
there. You don't do what I want. No. You don't do what
you want, no. Everything must have order, must have
logic." That's in his own words. And I played this many
times in universities when I lectured. I said, "Look,
listen to what other people have to say." Then I have Ravi
Shankar, a friend of mine, too. See the picture there?
The corner.
LASKEY: Yeah.
SORIANO: Yep. I have some tapes of his where he says
almost the same thing. He says, we, the American public
must not think of Indian music as akin to jazz or romantic
or this or all these adjectives. No, it's nothing but
descending and ascending scales, with tensions and
whatever, which are microtones, you see. Those are
beautiful things. This [is] why I used to criticize
[Arnold] Schoenberg for. He made a cult of the twelve-tone
scale which is nonsense. Yeah.
I had discussions with his star student, Adolph Weiss,
in Los Angeles where I had a big polemics with him. And I
61
said, "This is nonsense, twelve-tone. My god, the Italians
in the early centuries, they used to play with twenty- five
tones. Yeah. Sixteen tones, all these tones; they never
made a cult out of this. This is raicrotone. That's what
they are; they're microtones. They're vibrations — da-da-
da-da. That's their tones, big tones." I said, "The
Indians do that. These microtones that they use, not
twelve tones. It's just vibrations — dee-dee-dee-dee. And
according to whether you tune or no, " I said, "to make a
big to-do about this is silly. The important thing is what
are you structuring, isn't it?" That's the thing; yeah.
And most people don ' t understand that . And so that ' s why I
bring music, I bring ballet, I bring all those things for
them to understand; and it does work. They understand
it!
I ' 11 tell you an interesting experience that happened
to me. I was lecturing at Technion in Haifa in Israel
about three years ago, four years ago, and they promised
they were going to bring me a video player. And somehow
they couldn't get it. Over there is strange place, you
know, where they have to hide and something. Apparently,
the technicians were not paid; therefore, they promised to
bring it- -they wanted to get paid until they brought the
things. So finally, they didn't bring this and therefore,
I didn't play. This Natalia Makarova, I had a pas de deux
62
I was going to show which I take her all over the world;
it's an eight-minute ditty, this very beautiful thing to
show. Yes. I've shown her all over the world. And so the
students were so astute. I said, "Well, unless we find
some place where I can show you this, because it's too bad
you don ' t get the experience to see what I ' m trying to show
you in here that will clarify this more." So finally the
American consulate in Tel Aviv had about twenty of those
video players with televisions. This is how we are, you
know. We are marvelous. The USA's a glorious country,
really. We have everything.
LASKEY: Twenty- five.
SORIANO: Yes. And here, so finally, we arranged the — that
the consulate will see that, and I gave them this part of
the lecture in the United States consulate in Tel Aviv.
LASKEY: That's great.
SORIANO: And the lady, the librarian, even brought me
another tape of ballet which helped also to show what not
to do. Yeah. And the students came to me afterwards and
said, "Now we got it; we got it — seeing that." You see?
Because it's kind of hard to talk about architecture in the
realms that I talk because I gore most of the people ' s so-
called pseudo-beliefs, sort of the, you know, nostalgic
beliefs that they have. They don't like to hear that.
They get hurt. They think they were — Like religion, you
63
know. They just are stuck in an area of their thought and
beyond, and if you attack that, you know, you're attacking
something very serious. And instead of being objective, I
was talking about something else and the idea of thought
which transcends all kinds of personal things. And so for
that reason I show all these different devices for them —
for the students to understand and my colleagues to
understand. Yeah.
LASKEY: Do you feel that you're successful in convincing
your students--?
SORIANO : Yes , very .
LASKEY: — in your —
SORIANO: Very, very, very. Not all of them, certainly.
The ones I convince, I convinced them very, very
beautifully. And there are many of them who will never be
convinced .
I had one, another experience, one of the
universities — I was talking about the Beatles, how the
Beatles were not producing anything. "They're just lulling
all you kids into all this fake sex acts. Could you escape
[from] that to experience?" I said, "You get it through
this jumping around and, you know, things just like that
instead of going to it. Go to the girl; love her, kiss
her, hug her." And then I said, "The Beatles are not
because they have been plagiarizing Bach and a lot of other
64
composers." I said, "These are not original composers,
contrary to what you people think . " And I showed them how
where they take a piece of Bach, a piece of that, a piece
of the other. I have tapes of that.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: Yeah. Now, maybe the history should invite me to
lecture; they'll hear something —
65
TAPE NUMBER: II, SIDE ONE
JULY 19, 1985
SORIANO: You asked me whether I convince some of the
students. Well, I certainly do. I'll share an interesting
story. The reason I brought this thing here-- You don't
know what that is.
LASKEY: No, I don't know what it is. It's a large —
SORIANO: It's a valve. It's a piston valve of an
airplane.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: This is the thing that, with those propeller
airplanes, that lifts you up. This is a piston.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: Look how beautiful and precise that is.
LASKEY: It is indeed —
SORIANO: And this, from here to there —
LASKEY: Like a sculpture.
SORIANO: Forget it. Don't call it that because I get
offended about that. I'm just joking now but it's true.
Many people say a sculpture. I think it's silly; it's not
[a sculpture]. It's a working element of a motor to take
you up with a plane. It's nothing to do with sculpturing.
This is inside--it is hollow. It has sodium in it to keep
it cool. So when this thing goes up and down to lift you
up when you go up in the plane, those piston, the
66
propellers —
LASKEY: Yes.
SORIANO: This is the thing that works. [makes sound of
engine] And actually, this gets hot, but the sodium
inside — But you see the precision to make this? Look how
beautifully done.
LASKEY: Absolutely.
SORIANO: Yeah. Now, I'll show you why I show you that. I
gave a lecture to the American Institute of Architects, to
the practicing architects. These were all practicing
architects, not students. There were one or two
sprinklings, young students yet. But most of us — This
lecture I gave in Los Angeles to the practicing
architects. After the lecture, it was-- No, first, during
the lecture, there was this Garret Eckbo, you know, the
landscape man.
LASKEY: What's the name?
SORIANO: Garret Eckbo. Doesn't mean anything. Anyway, he
calls me, "You're a philistine!" and he walks away.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: During the- -yeah- -during the lecture. Stupid.
Yeah. I mean, he has an idea — I'll tell you, I have other
reasons for that. But anyway — So after I lectured, there
was very polite applause, that's about all. "Are there any
questions?" None. I said to myself, "God!" I stopped at
67
the Knickerbocker Hotel, Hollywood Knickerbocker-- Is it
still there? I don't know.
LASKEY: I don't think so. I'm not sure.
SORIANO: That used to be the hotel of all the movie crowd.
LASKEY: The Roosevelt is being remodeled, but I'm not
sure — I think the Knickerbocker is —
SORIANO: Yeah, but the Hollywood Knickerbocker used to be
the hotel.
LASKEY: Yeah, I think it's —
SORIANO: Used to be all electric, heaters for the guest
rooms .
LASKEY: — apartments or something now.
SORIANO: Yes. Used to be very first — Beautiful hotel.
And I loved to stop there because they had electric
heaters. No gas or anything like the old furnaces, and it
was centrally located. And I was sort of distraught after
that evening, you know. I came to the hotel and I said,
"What did I do? Did I make a mess of my lecture? Didn't I
say something--" In my heart, I knew I did--speak
beautifully and I gave a beautiful lecture.
In the morning, around nine o'clock, the telephone
rings; a young architect who was in my lecture. He said,
"Mr. Soriano, I was at your lecture last night. May I come
to talk to you, please?" I said, "Well, of course." And
so he brings me this valve.
68
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: And he says, "This is designed by a friend of
mine who works for the aircraft industry, designed these
things." And he gave it to me. "But I want to give it to
you in token of my esteem and appreciation. I've heard you
almost nine times and you are more right every time."
Now, that's it. That's why I show you this valve.
See? Now, this is a true story. And at least it
encouraged me. I told him what this guy says. "Oh, well,
you — Don't you know they are old fossils." He said
that. [laughter] And at least he gave me a little
courage, you know, to see, well, at least maybe I wasn't
all bad.
LASKEY: Yeah. Some of your message got through.
SORIANO: Yes. At least I had one. [laughs]
LASKEY: But I would think that you would get a lot of out-
and-out battles- -
SORIANO: Oh, yes.
LASKEY: — when you talk about, you know, take out the
sculptural aspect or the artistic aspect- -
SORIANO: Ooooooh, yes.
LASKEY: — of when you dismiss painting and sculpture- -
SORIANO: Absolutely.
LASKEY: — that you touch a lot of —
SORIANO: Guts —
69
LASKEY: --nerves. [laughter]
SORIANO: I destroy a lot of guts, yes. As a matter of
fact, I'll give you two Instances: One is, I remember
distinctly, one girl asking me, "Mr. Soriano, don't you
like anything?" [laughter] And I said, "On the contrary,
I like lots of things." And then a student-- Very
recently, a couple of years ago in one of the colleges, I
was talking about the Beatles. I said, "You shouldn't
listen to that because it doesn't mean anything; I'll show
you of all the things, where things were taken out." And
"Why don't you listen to the real thing instead of all this
rehash, junk? Because all you are enamored with all these
words which mean nothing, you think you are part of that
culture? Forget that! Be yourselves. You're part of the
universe; it's a greater culture than the cults of your own
peers." I tell them that.
And one boy, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, Mr.
Soriano, " like that and started jumping — "No, I wanted--
No, no, no. I want an answer right now!" and he started
telling me-- And I said, "Will you please listen to the end
of this- -beginning of that musical thing what I will do?
And then you'll see what I'm trying to develop; therefore,
you to understand. Then we can talk, yes? There will be a
question period, too." He sat down. Again, he couldn't
stand five more minutes. Again, he was sort of --so gored.
70
he said, "No, I want an answer right now! Right now!
Right now!" Just like that.
LASKEY: So upset?
SORIANO: Yeah, he was so upset. I said, "Well," I tried
to explain to him. Finally, he kept challenging me. "No,
this is a different thing. You don't understand it." I
said, "Oh, shut up and sit down and learn something!" And
then the president of the university was in the audience
and shook my hand and said, "I'm so glad you told him that
because none of the professors tell them anything. They'll
let them do what they want . "
LASKEY: Yes.
SORIANO: This is the tragedy. Anyway, so this is the way
it was. I mean, I have many, many incidents like that.
Many of them call me pristine; they call me communist; they
call me-- You name it, I have been called.
LASKEY: Well, that's — It's touching on something very
vital with the art. How did you come to that conclusion?
I mean, I think that's rather a unique perspective.
SORIANO: Yes. It is. That's why I'm different than most
of my colleagues. That's why I didn't like for Esther
[McCoy] to write a book with the three others which are
totally the opposite of my thinking. I once was going to
be with Konrad Wachsmann and myself, and all of a sudden
she changed it to this, without telling me.
71
LASKEY: I'm going to just mention the book we're talking
about .
SORIANO : Yes .
LASKEY: The Secxjnd Generation.
SORIANO: The Second Generation.
LASKEY: And It's Interesting because It deals with [J. R.]
Davidson, [Gregory] Aln, [Harwell Hamilton] Harris, and
yourself, and Wachsmann Isn't even In It--
SORIANO: No, because she was going- -
LASKEY: — which Is sort of Interesting.
SORIANO: Yes. She was going to have me and Wachsmann
only; two of us. And that's why I said, "At least tell
me," because I didn't want to be with the other four, the
other three, because I don't think they come up to my
thinking, or at least they don't represent what I think my
generation, I mean, they really should be.
LASKEY: But you were all--
SORIANO : Contemporaries .
LASKEY: --colleagues, weren't you?
SORIANO: I know. But that still doesn't mean anything. I
have a lot of students were my colleagues from USC
[University of Southern California], too. Many of them
have done Spanish haciendas. And what Is Harris doing? I
don't understand that what Harris has done. Nothing but
Imitation of Frank Lloyd Wright. And If you hear him talk
72
you will see — I don't think he says much of anything of,
in my estimation. And Gregory Ain, what — ? They talk
about nothing, really. What is Gregory Ain? What has he
contributed? Nothing, really, except imitation of [Rudolph
M.] Schindler and [Richard J.] Neutra, badly, badly. He
didn't have the comprehension of any of those. And
Davidson, even I call Davidson a sort of — He lost his
virility. In other words, he wasn't fertile.
LASKEY: Oh.
SORIANO: When you look at his architecture, it's very
flat, very meaningless. To me it doesn't represent
anything. It looks, so-called, the type of the language
[it] was in the thirties, but in reality [it] isn't. It's
sort of half-baked or somebody timid. In other words, that
was the statement by a timid man. I call him that--it
would be excellent. A timid statement; perfect. Here,
I'll show you. I'll show you why. Because Davidson begins
[the book], doesn't it?
LASKEY: Yes.
SORIANO: Yeah, so-- [turns pages] Yeah. When you look at
all of this-- You see, that's Davidson, isn't it? Yeah.
LASKEY: Yeah.
SORIANO: So what is this? What has it done here that
Neutra hasn't done better ten times, hundred times?
Imitations of Neutra, badly. See? This kind of a
73
things. And complicated even In plan. I wouldn't do
things like that — all of these angles and all. That's not
architecture. That's another interesting lecture from me.
LASKEY: Oh, really? On planning? Laying plans?
SORIANO: Yes. I said that they're all —
LASKEY: Well, your plans were always models of simplicity.
SORIANO: They — I'll show you more you'll see. Like
this. So what? All of these things are nothing, really.
They're not real things. They are — They look like — It's
just like somebody imitating Bach, without being Bach. You
know what I mean?
LASKEY: I know what you mean.
SORIANO: Uh-huh. [turns page] And —
LASKEY: But it was very —
SORIANO: Well, it's simple —
LASKEY: — the International, in what they — very much the
International Style —
SORIANO: Yeah, which I hate: I hate that name. Yeah.
LASKEY: The quintessential — The white, flat surfaces.
SORIANO: Yeah, but to me that's not architecture. It is
more than just surfaces, more [than] the styles. It
represents a different type of thing. It's the thinking;
it's the structuring of all the totality of the elements in
the unified concept which is not — And here you find little
bits of this, little bits of that, which, here — Maybe on
74
this. You know, they — Really, look at the plans. This,
to me, is not architecture, you see.
Casals said, "I do anything I like, no." [laughter]
See? "I do this, no?" So what? I can do that work and do
that way — so what? But to conceive the thinking — Proper
structure is difficult, and beautiful. This — anybody could
do that. You could do it. Sure!
LASKEY: Not me.
SORIANO: Sure you could. [turns page] This is what
happens. You see, we can do these things, look. I don't
know how much of that goes on.
LASKEY: That's Harris.
SORIANO: That's Harwell Harris, yeah.
LASKEY: Well, now, his style —
SORIANO: Is very, very much —
LASKEY: Harris's style was quite different from yours —
SORIANO: Frank Lloyd Wright.
LASKEY: — in that it was much wood —
SORIANO: Frank Lloyd Wright.
LASKEY: — wood surfaces. That's the [John] Entenza House,
isn't it?
SORIANO: Now, look, all these — Yeah. So are the worst
house .
LASKEY: But that's unusual for-- That's an unusual house
for Harris, too.
75
SORIANO: Yeah, because he wanted to be modern, yeah.
LASKEY: Yeah, I think he —
SORIANO: But I think Harris is very Frank Lloyd Wrightish,
and I heard him lecture a couple of times. He was pointing
all these abstract things- -pointing that way, the roof,
because you can "see the sky" and all this — all these
exaggerated .
LASKEY: Well, I see more-- He seems to be somewhat more
influenced by the Japanese, too —
SORIANO: Yeah--
LASKEY: --use a lot of wood and —
SORIANO: Darling, I was in Japan and Tokyo many times. I
lectured to them. Not all Japanese is good. And some of
the things they do are lovely, yes. But I don't think
Harris is as Japanesey at all. It's more or less bad Frank
Lloyd Wright. Yeah. Trying to be Frank Lloyd Wright.
[turns page] All this sculptural attitude, you see?
LASKEY: That's very Wrightian, yeah.
SORIANO: Yeah. All these things. You see, that, to me--
I don't know.
LASKEY: Well, of course, that is the — That's the Louis
Sullivan Building.
SORIANO: And then Gregory Ain. He goes with this, so, all
right. Okay. All right. So? [turns pages] So? He
worked for-- This [Rudolph] Schindleresque, you see? He
76
worked for — See all of that? Cut out into this little--
LASKEY: Schindler did that?
SORIANO: Yes. You see, this is, again, imitations of
that. I imitated Neutra in the beginning, certainly. And
then immediately I realized no, that's not it. And I went
beyond that. And Neutra 's youngest son, Raymond, told me
something very interesting. He came to see me after I gave
that lecture at USC, I believe it was, with his wife. He
came, "Raphael, you did what my father wanted to do and
never did it. "
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO : Yes .
LASKEY: Well, that must have been quite a compliment for
you to get.
SORIANO: That's right. And I was terribly touched by this
statement. And it's true. I really went beyond. In fact,
I used to criticize Neutra. I admired Neutra very much
because Neutra was really great.
LASKEY: When did you know Neutra or work with him?
SORIANO: When I was a student.
LASKEY: It's while you were still a student?
SORIANO: Maybe '28 — something; '28, '29, '30. Yeah.
LASKEY: And you worked on the Rush City project?
SORIANO: Yes. That's all. For a few months I was there,
just-- And then Schindler called me, as I told you. And
77
then I went to Schindler. Then I couldn't stand Schindler.
LASKEY: You couldn't stand Schindler [his work]?
SORIANO : Because —
LASKEY: The way he worked, or his —
SORIANO: It was charming the way he worked, yes. No,
personally I liked him. He was charming; very nice,
gracious man. Always a smile. Yes. But he had something
very strange. He used to leave me with a little--
[ sketches] Little sketches like that.
LASKEY: What is that?
SORIANO: I don't know. [laughter] Now, for me to
develop-- And then he used to go to his jobs and never come
back. And I used to try to solve the problem in my own
way. "Ah, too functional, too functional," he used to tell
me.
LASKEY: He thought it was too functional?
SORIANO : Yes .
LASKEY: I'm surprised.
SORIANO: What I did. Because, you see, his was very
personal, very sculptural.
LASKEY: Well, that's true.
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: That's true.
SORIANO: And I was just the opposite. I wanted to
structure the thing objectively, not sculptural. I was one
78
to see the logic of the thing, how the thing goes together,
even though I was ignorant; I didn't know much of
anything. So finally, I told him, I said, "Look, I don't
think I will serve you, not that I could be of use to you,
not that I learned anything from your way." I said, "I
don't think it's best," so I quit. That way we part. I
did.
LASKEY: So you developed your theories then, really, very
early.
SORIANO: That's correct. I did my first house in 1934.
That was the- -my love's [Helen Lipetz] house. Yeah. A
pianist.
LASKEY: The [Manny] Lipetz House?
SORIANO : Yes .
LASKEY: That's an interesting story.
SORIANO: Very few know that.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: Yeah. She used to play Bach, Scarlatti, Rameau,
Couperin. She was a fantastic pianist. Yeah. She had a
Bechstein piano there.
LASKEY: What kind?
SORIANO: Bechstein, a Geirman piano; beautiful one.
Yeah. Yeah. That was it. And I did that house; I built
it myself. We had no contract.
LASKEY: How did you come on-- The house was very
79
interesting looking in, again, in pictures.
SORIANO: Yeah, but inside it was — I don't know — the one
who owns it after, I don't know what they did with it.
They changed-- They put their own improvisations, which is
sad. But anyway, I have some beautiful shots; I'll show
you. What happened was really this. This is an
interesting story how I happened to know —
What do you have there? Is that — ?
LASKEY: Just a floor plan of the house.
SORIANO: Yeah. That was my original, the floor plan.
Yes, I know. It's interesting. But I wanted to do this
one a complete round.
LASKEY: The entire house?
SORIANO: The entire house in a round or a square; a
perfect square or round in one block, in one unity. Her
husband, Manny, he was very- -used to love [George] Gershwin
and was still contaminated with this so-called pseudo New
York culture. And he wanted little round corners here,
round corners there, and all that. And the lot we bought
was very, very difficult; was a hillside.
LASKEY: This was in West Hollywood, was it?
SORIANO: No, no. It was in the Silver Lake [district] on
top of the — overlooking Neutra's house on the hill, all
along the street.
LASKEY: Oh, really? It was at Silver Lake?
80
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: Okay. I've got wrong Information here.
SORIANO: Yeah. And so I finally compromised by doing that
round living room for Helen, the pianist. Yeah. And now,
how I get this commission, I'll show you. It's very
interesting in my life. I was just barely nothing. I
wasn't even known, or anything. I was hungry for a
European film; I hated the Hollywood films. And I saw in
one of these journals — newspapers, it said in one place in
either Beverly Hills or Hollywood, in one of the stores,
the John Reed Club-- You know who John Reed Club was--
LASKEY: Yes, pretty much. Political —
SORIANO: That's right. It was John Reed —
LASKEY: --remembrance of John Reed, who--
SORIANO: He was the —
LASKEY: — the journalist.
SORIANO: — newspaperman, journalist who died in the
USSR. Buried in the Kremlin.
LASKEY: Ten Days That Shook the World.
SORIANO: That's right. And he was — They were
intellectuals, artists who organized, all over the United
States, John Reed Clubs to have friendship with Russia and
the United States and other countries. And this was the
way that I met [David] Siqueiros, you know, the Mexican
painter.
81
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO : Yes .
LASKEY: That would be impressive.
SORIANO: Sigueiros was a member there and his wife Blanca
Luz. Yeah. You don't know that. It's history. Blanca
Luz was a poetess. She used to write the most fantastic,
beautiful, tender letters to Siqueiros because he was
always in jail as a commie.
LASKEY: Yes. [laughter]
SORIANO: Okay.
LASKEY: You know, there's a Sigueiros mural downtown.
SORIANO: I know that. I know that very well; as a matter
of fact, when he did that. And so I met Sigueiros. I used
to know them. In fact, I met afterwards in Mexico City at
the — in Mario Pani's [Pan-American Congress] buildings he
had those murals with the hands like that. Yeah. In the
administration building. Yeah. He did that. And I have
tapes on that collaboration of the artists with
architecture, which I blasted them. I have tapes and tapes
of those things which I engaged the people who did that
collaboration. You don't know what I have, really. I have
treasures here . That ' s why I want to get somewhere I can
sit down and really write all these things properly.
LASKEY: And catalog and find, you know, make sure that--
SORIANO: It requires finances and I don't have anything.
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And so this is the story. So what happens is this. I
wanted to see a European film. I read in the newspaper
that Le Miracle de Saint-George in French was showing in
the John Reed Club. The Miracle of Saint George. It was a
satire on how the church and the big business [es] get
together and make all these deals, yeah.
LASKEY: Ah, I've never heard of that.
SORIANO: But done, oh, this was a film, a satire such as
you never — is hilarious and magnificent. Only the French
could do a thing like that, you see.
LASKEY: Who did it? Do you know- -remember who the
filmmaker was?
SORIANO: Oh my goodness, it's years ago. I don't even
remember. Do you know how many years ago this is?
LASKEY: Mm, about fifty?
SORIANO: Fifty years. Yeah, fifty, fifty-three year — more
than that; fifty-three years. Yeah. And so I said, "I
want to go." I was hungry to see a European film. I hated
the American films from Hollywood. So I decided to see
that film and I went there. And all titles in French.
There was nothing in — All spoken in French but no titles.
LASKEY: No subtitles?
SORIANO: No, because most of the people attended were
already international audience from Europe who know,
apparently, French. And behind me sat a Mrs. Orkin. Her
83
husband was an inventor of all kinds of little gadgets.
And her daughter, Ruth Orkin, bicycled from Los Angeles to
New York and wrote a book. I'm talking about this in the
early years of the thirties. She became a very good
photographer of people. And the poor baby. She came to
visit me about three years ago; she's suffering from
cancer .
LASKEY: I know the name. I think I've seen her
photographs .
SORIANO: Yeah, Ruth Orkin, yes. She does beautiful
photography. Well, to make the story short, she kept
poking me. She sat behind me in a nearby row in the
auditoriiim there, and she said, "What did he say? What did
he say?" [laughter] And I said, "Well, we disturb
people. I'll tell you after the film, okay?" And she took
me up on it. She said, "You're an interesting man. What
are you doing?" I said, "Well, I'm a student," and this
and that. And she drove me home in her car to Santa
Barbara Avenue with her little daughter. They were in here
and I explained the stuff. She said, "Oh . . . " We talk
about music, and so, "Oh my god, my cousin is a concert
pianist. She's going to be here in six months. I'll
invite you. Will you come?" And she did invite me; and I
came. And this was the beginning.
LASKEY: Oh, that's a nice story.
84
SORIANO: And we fell madly in love the first second our
eyes hit, you know.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: What happened to the relationship?
SORIANO: Well, this is something — Sometime I'll tell you;
not now. But anyway, so I built this house. Yeah.
LASKEY: That must have been a very interesting experience--
SORIANO: It was.
LASKEY: — building a house under — your first house —
SORIANO: My first beautiful love.
LASKEY: — your first beautiful love —
SORIANO: And music in there.
LASKEY: — the main thing being a music room which is
something that had to mean as much to you as it did to
them.
SORIANO: It was, absolutely. And then I know I had many
musicians from the [Los Angeles] Philharmonic [Orchestra],
who have retired already. They've seen my sign outside and
they say, "My god, you don't remember? We were at that
house you built — you remember? — with the round — with the
piano. We used to give concerts there, chamber music."
And I said, "Yes."
LASKEY: Of course you remember it.
SORIANO: How can I not remember it?
85
LASKEY: Well, it must have been a — In the Esther McCoy
book there's a picture of the house with the piano in it.
SORIANO: That's not a good one. It's all right, but I
have a better one than that. I have some exquisite ones.
I use a lot of very interesting things.
LASKEY: Well, the room has the most beautiful view.
SORIANO: That's the Silver Lake right there.
LASKEY: Looking down over Silver Lake.
SORIANO: Yeah. And then when I was building that Mrs.
[Dionne] Neutra came up to the premises. "For whom are you
working?" I said, "For myself. I'm the — " "Oh, you're
doing this?" I said, "Yes." [laughter] "Oh, Mr. Neutra
won't like that." [laughter] She said that to me, I
remember distinctly, and yet she's a very good friend of
mine, Mrs. Neutra.
LASKEY: Did she know you at the time? Did she know that
you had worked in, you know, her husband 's--
SORIANO: Of course. I was working with them when they
were living in a little old house in Echo Park somewheres
with the two children, the little Frank who was a little
retarded. He used to go, "Arrr-arrr-arrrr-arrr-arrrr-
arrrr." He used to run around. And the little Dionne was
this size and she used to play the cello and do her--specs
[specifications], the typing for Mr. Neutra. I know all of
the — even that era, Mr. Neutra with that building, that
86
building.
LASKEY: The house?
SORIANO: Yes. I knew them from that, when I was going to
school. That's how I knew them. Then we became very
friendly and I liked them.
And as I told you before that there was a lecture at
the [Los Angeles] Philharmonic Auditorium and through my- -I
don't know how I keep meeting people, from the skies--and
there was a lovely lady- -her husband- -and she was a writer
for the movies. Her husband was also a bookkeeper or
something in the movie industry. Somehow I don't know
where did I meet them. I forget now. She was a lovely
meticulous woman. She used to always invite me to her
house. And she was a superb cook; fine, clean,
meticulous. I remember that when she used to wash her
beans, every bean has to be studied and cleaned. Really.
And meticulous. The spinach, the same way. And she, in
fact, threw me to Frank Lloyd Wright and Neutra. At the
time I didn't even know who they were. Yeah. I was a
student then working in a fruit stand. And then she said,
"There'll be two architects [speaking]." And then I heard
them. I heard Frank Lloyd Wright first. It was filled
with people, the auditorium.
LASKEY: Well, if Frank Lloyd Wright was talking, then —
SORIANO: Yeah. And then Neutra was about half- filled or
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something like that. And so Frank Lloyd Wright was a- -had
a flair, drama in his speech. Mr. Neutra was really
interesting but a little more difficult to understand him
with his direction. Frank Lloyd Wright [had] more of
metaphors and all this flair which will charm many people
with saying nothing even though saying words. But then
afterwards I met both of them because of that meeting with
that lady brought me there to that Philharmonic Auditorium
to tell you. And then when I did my Hallawell Seed
Company, that blue glass nursery, everybody compared it to
the [Ludwig] Mies van der Rohe. I didn't even know who
Mies van der Rohe was when I did that.
LASKEY: So you actually came to architecture from a
philosophical point of view, and not from an actual having
studied — studied architecture —
SORIANO: That's correct.
LASKEY: — and wanted to —
SORIANO: That's correct.
LASKEY: — wanted to do that.
SORIANO : That ' s correct .
LASKEY: That's very interesting.
SORIANO: I didn't even know what I was doing when I
designed that house.
LASKEY: The Lipetz House?
SORIANO: Yes.
88
LASKEY: Yeah.
SORIANO: I met architecture at the time just when I
graduated, you see. Then there was WPA [Works Progress
Administration], you know, with the Depression.
LASKEY: Oh, sure.
SORIANO: And I remember I met Cassatt Griffin which is a
very lovely person. Was an architect, conservative, but
very nice, charming person, really.
I worked for the County of Los Angeles in some special
projects for indigent housing which I did-- Really, I have
these plans, very simple ones.
LASKEY: Now, that was right when you got out of school,
right?
SORIANO: Yes, yes.
LASKEY: And you went to work for the county.
SORIANO: Yeah. And we used to — Out of school there was
nothing, you know, with the Depression.
LASKEY: Yeah.
SORIANO: And we used to measure manholes for the City of
Los Angeles. They put sewer systems — They put manholes,
but they didn't know where they were. Yeah. Can't catch,
catch-can in case anything goes wrong. And so we had to
mark them. All the engineers and architects were put to
work to mark the manholes in the City of Los Angeles.
That's my first job. And then I graduated to the County of
89
Los Angeles to do special projects for the Indigent housing
and all that which I did very interesting things. I still
have the drawings nicely, which will be in my book.
LASKEY: So these were at the time, of course, the
Depression was on —
SORIANO: That's correct.
LASKEY: --and this was the idea for the housing, was to —
SORIANO: For the indigent.
LASKEY: — help take care of this surplus —
SORIANO: Indigents which were coming here, yes.
LASKEY: They were coming in. That was — would be part of
the Dust Bowl migration--
SORIANO: That's exactly, exactly.
LASKEY: — were starting to come in, too, weren't they?
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: It's interesting that at that time that the city
was considering- -city or county- -
SORIANO: It's the county, yes.
LASKEY: Okay, the county was considering something that
massive because certainly there wasn't much money around —
SORIANO: I have dormitories and everything else that I
designed. Even schools, yeah.
LASKEY: But they never got built?
SORIANO: No. And because — Modifications, politics, and,
you know, those things. At the time I never comprehended
90
anything like that. But I used to ask Cassatt Griffin,
"How do you do that?" I wanted him to — The first time, [I
wanted] to take something underground with wood. Are you
kidding? I didn't know a damn thing about architecture,
but I knew my senses were correct. My senses were
beautiful, but the knowledge [of] how to construct that
thing- -
LASKEY: Oh, and that's what — that's what —
SORIANO: --was lacking.
LASKEY: He was an engineer or--?
SORIANO: He was an architect actually- -
LASKEY: He was an architect —
SORIANO: — but he was the architect of the County of Los
Angeles. Yeah. And I used to ask him, I said, "How do you
indicate that?" Because I used to go and it was curiosity
to see in the building when they used to build
foundations. And all of a sudden I saw a lump of
concrete. And yet, [in school] we make our foundations
[look] like [a] precise T. I said, "How could that be?" I
said, "Why?" I asked him. I said, "You know--" Nobody
could explain.
At school nobody even could — We did working
drawings. But the working and drawings were copies of a
building of a big office, one sheet of drawing. We had to
trace that. How can you learn on that? That's why I used
91
to rebel. I said, "I don't understand. What does that
mean? "
LASKEY; You didn't actually have to go out to a site or--
Did you do models or — ?
SORIANO: No, no, no. Models we could do. I think we did--
Maybe or maybe not; I don't even remember, really. But
anyway, so their teaching was superficial. Just copy,
copy, copy. That's all it was. And I didn't want to copy;
I wanted to hear, to understand, to, "What is it--what?"
And so Cassatt used to give me some clues then-- [I] said,
"Oh ..." And I said, "Well, why is this a lump and then
why have indicated steel?" "Well, if you find enough of
that cross section of that stuff, that is all right. It'll
pass." And I said, "Oh, so that's what it — " [laughter]
Then with a little engineering that I had and calculating,
then I began to feel my oats. Then when I built this, I
learned a hell of a lot. I took it for me to build it.
Imagine the daringness of this?
LASKEY: Well, it ' s a daring design.
SORIANO: And I questioned and I investigated and be sure
that this thing will do this, will work that way. And then
I did it. So I went in that direction: learning,
observing, questioning, and then digesting in my brain what
it is. "Ah-hah. You can do that. You take these
liberties," or "It means that," you see. You know. This
92
is interesting.
LASKEY: That's very interesting.
SORIANO: Yeah. So I didn't learn anything in school
except maybe how to work at nights, hours, or work all
night, which I still do sometimes if I have to do a
drawing . Yeah . Yeah .
LASKEY: Were you pleased with the house when it was done?
SORIANO: Yes, I was very pleased with it; however, there
are other things I wouldn't have done today what I did had
I known .
LASKEY: Well, this is your first house.
SORIANO: Naturally, sure. Still, I was pleased at the
fact what I did-- I did even innovations there which before
even they had those lumin-line troughs in the trains — You
remember, indirect lighting?
LASKEY: Yes.
SORIANO: I installed them — The first thing the lumin-
lines came in I installed them in the house in the round.
Going to have to show you that. This is really very
interesting for you to see. That's why they didn't copy
the right pictures.
LASKEY: Well, the room with that light at night looks so
beautiful. It illuminated--
SORIANO: It is. Exquisite, yeah.
LASKEY: How did it work?
93
SORIANO: It worked beautifully.
LASKEY: Acoustically.
SORIANO: It was perfect.
LASKEY: Did it sound as good as it looked?
SORIANO: It was excellent acoustics because that trough
already took this thing [sound] instead of reverberating
back. It absorbed it. I didn't even know it. This was
just a happenstance, a mystery. Yeah.
LASKEY: Great. So you did the Lipetz House in 1936.
SORIANO: Yes. 'Thirty- four, actually.
LASKEY: 'Thirty-four. Really?
SORIANO: Yeah. Before even that. Just barely graduated.
LASKEY: That's amazing. And by 1938 —
SORIANO: 'Thirty- seven, I didn't go, because that's when I
was injured. Nineteen thirty- seven I was injured when I
built the [George and Ida Latz Memorial] Jewish Community
Center .
LASKEY: Yeah.
SORIANO: Yeah. And I'll show you the Jewish Community
Center .
LASKEY: Now, this is in East Los Angeles?
SORIANO: Well, I don't know.
LASKEY: We're at the [George and Ida] Latz Memorial
[Jewish Community Center],
SORIANO: I don't know where that is. Yeah, Latz
94
Memorial. I don't know what happened to it.
LASKEY; There's not much left of it right now.
SORIANO: Yeah, this is it.
LASKEY: Hidden by shrubberies and things.
SORIANO: See. This is what it looked like. See. And
this.
LASKEY: It's —
SORIANO: I was injured right in there. I was telling- -
LASKEY: How did the injury happen?
SORIANO: Well, I was telling the welder to please weld the
rivet properly plumbed because I was going to hang a gate
in it, to "please make it plumb." And a car came down the
hill; somebody steered it — And a girl was in the car. She
got scared. She steered it, came right across the street,
on the sidewalk, hit me in the back. And it broke my
femur, my knee.
LASKEY: Oh.
SORIANO: Ai-yi-yi-yi-yi-- You don't know what they did.
Yeah.
LASKEY: For how long were you —
SORIANO: I was six months in the hospital with my leg like
that, with weights, with osteomyelitis of the nose, I lost
a piece of jawbone with my lower front teeth, and this was--
My lip was cut like that, and my clavicle was broken. My
head was broken like that — see those two fingers. And I'll
95
tell you, to this day I suffer fantastic pains.
LASKEY: Oh, of course.
SORIANO: My legs and all that. I have to take a pill
every now and then to, to —
LASKEY: Yeah.
SORIANO: And this is the whole beautiful tragedy of our
pathos of life. Yeah.
LASKEY: Well, that's when — That was the year, too, when a
whole--when you were doing a whole number of things.
SORIANO: Oh, yes. I was really — And I designed-- Look at
the tenacity of me. Excuse me if I take a half pill
because I've been a little bit under —
LASKEY: Would you like to take a —
SORIANO: No, that's okay. You like any coffee?
LASKEY: Oh, yes. I'd love some.
SORIANO: Good. I put some water. [tape recorder off]
SORIANO: Now, the accident, which in '37 just about killed
me — Well, to show you my tenacity, I designed two houses
there .
LASKEY: In the hospital?
SORIANO: Yes. Here I was six months in traction — six or
four, I've forgotten now where it was. I have my records
here somewhere. [microphone adjusted] See, we forgot to
put this-- But anyway — Could it be that those two are
close together?
96
LASKEY: No, I don't think so. I think It's in the tape.
SORIANO: Let me see.
LASKEY: We can move it and see.
SORIANO: Now, in the hospital, as I told you, they took me
there, practically, with shovels. It was so hideous [an]
accident. I've never seen anything like it. And I had six
clients, I believe. They all run to be relinquished from
their contract. They thought I was going to die. And one,
Nixon — the Dixon House, they said, "No. We believe in
you. You'll survive. We'll wait for you." I was deeply
touched. And we did. And I had the house designed almost,
but I finished it there. Then I did a house for a doctor,
Dr . Gogol .
LASKEY: Oh, yes, yes.
SORIANO: Yeah. And his wife was sort of a Trotskyite.
They were the real Trotskyites, but particularly Mrs.
Gogol. Oh, how daring she was. Oh, she detested Stalin--
[ laughter] There was interesting characters always.
LASKEY: Great period for radical women in the United
States.
SORIANO: Yeah, yeah. And —
Forgive me for pulling this up because I have to--
LASKEY: Oh, no. Please, just be comfortable.
SORIANO: And so I designed that house, and look at the
tenacity of me. Now, after I got out of the hospital, I
97
was with a body cast; full body cast: this leg completely,
this up to here. The only thing free was this, except to
go to the bathroom. But I was solid. With crutches and a
cane, for nine months I had that. Then when I — We started
building the Dixon House in Long Beach, of all the
places. Long Beach!
LASKEY: Long Beach.
SORIANO: Oh, god. I forgot to-- [laughter] I forgot--
And the Red streetcar line used to go to Long Beach from
Hill Street. And I was in a hotel then, the Huntley
Apartments which is near-- My god, it was the hotel of the
movie crowd.
LASKEY: The Huntley Apartments?
SORIANO: Yes. That was, at the time, way, way, way, way
back. And they had the rooms where [they] had rosewood,
little so-called tables for writing with envelopes. They
had silverware in there. And they had [a] billiard room, a
huge ballroom [with] billiard room below. Yeah.
LASKEY: Where was this? Where was it?
SORIANO: In Temple Avenue, near Temple and somewheres
around that. I have the whole story.
LASKEY: Sounds wonderful.
SORIANO: Yeah. That was the hotel, the hotel I was in,
the Huntley. Because through a friend of mine that I met
in the fruit stand, his girl friend became the manager of
98
that hotel; therefore, I got a room there. And that's when
I got injured. Naturally, after I finished treatment, they
[my friends] all wanted to close my studio in the Huntley,
which I had there, because they thought I would die
anyway. I said, "No, I want you to bring my Bach records
and my Victrola and then my drafting table like the little
one like that." And I said, "I want that." And they would
argue with me. I said, "No!" I said, "I want that." And
I did.
The first nurse I had--she came through the emergency-
-said, "I'm your special nurse." And I look at her. She
had the most beautiful brown eyes. I said, "You have
exquisite eyes." She said to me afterwards, a week later
when I was a little more coherent, she said, "You know,
when you told me that I knew you would live, because they
told me I had a curtain case." And I kept her for all the
six to eight months. And even later on she used to come to
see how I was and take care of me. She's so sweet, that
Virginia. Just tender!
I couldn't wait in the morning until she came because
I was a mess. My jaws were wired and my back-- Puss oozing
from my nose. And I'll tell you, it was the devil,
really. If I think of it now, I'll go crazy. Felt awful;
full of aches and pains and sores--bed sores. In those
days they had calamine lotion which did nothing, you
99
know. That's the only thing they had.
LASKEY: And then they didn't even have a lot of the pain
killers that they might —
SORIANO: Nothing.
LASKEY: — have given you now--
SORIANO: That's right.
LASKEY: — and the techniques —
SORIANO: That's right.
LASKEY: --that would have made it at least less painful.
SORIANO: They didn't even have penicillin. That would
have cured the osteomyelitis, would have been cured like
that. But they didn't. The doctor said either you'll kill
it or they'll kill you.
LASKEY: You must have really wanted to live.
SORIANO: Of course I did. And then — So I designed these
two houses in the hospital. And I built-- When I came back
to my room, I used to drag myself to go to the bathroom on
my hands because I couldn't walk at all. And it was not a
pleasant one. And then I had a little electric burner this
big so I could make myself some lima beans, soup, and this
and that. And so I managed it.
LASKEY: I know how —
SORIANO: But you see, life is not so bad in spite of the
inconveniences . Because I was brought up in my mother ' s
home-- We never had water, running water. We never had
100
electricity, heating. We have to bring charcoal, wood
charcoal. We used to buy big sacks of it, store it in a
box outside and bring it in. Make the charcoal burn as —
In the tandours metal box with flaps, you know, these type
of things. We used to make hot coals and bring it in when
red hot. Then cook on top of them, and this used to serve
in the winter to warm our hands, and that's all. We used
to sit around in the living room, cook there and warm--
This is the thing. And the John was an outhouse type of a
thing. This is where I used to fetch the water from the
outside, whatever. We never had such things so I was used
to those things, so it didn't matter to me. I wasn't so
spoiled. In America, everything is utensils, utensils.
This friend of mine I have, a charming girl, she has
everything — She has a utensil for everything, even for to
make little chopped parsley and all this. She had a table
for this and that and the other thing . And I ' d take them
stuff, I'd clean it thoroughly, and then I'd take with a
knife, clip, clip, clip, clip, clip, [laughter] without
anything .
LASKEY: Right.
SORIANO: Without any mess or anything-- She gets
astonished.
LASKEY: How do you do that?
SORIANO: And garlic, I take and I just dut, dut, dut, dut
101
with my hand, and I chopped It Instead of squashing It with
all the — with jllllons of utensils. So this Is what
happened. And It was a beautiful thing, the fact that I
was brought up with this kind of a thing: simplicity.
Simplicity of life. And we get used to this, you know.
But now I can use the most exquisite utensils. Why not?
It's lovely to have all —
102
TAPE NUMBER: II, SIDE TWO
JULY 19, 1985
SORIANO: Okay. Now, where were we?
LASKEY: We were talking about simplicity and the
recovering — How did you get, because at this point then
you — I think the Latz Memorial, the framing was In steel.
SORIANO : Yes .
LASKEY: How had you gotten Into steel at such an early
time?
SORIANO: Well, I was always thinking of new thought-- I
was never happy with the wood. I used to-- The wood Is all
right, but not flexible. It's static. So big deal, you
copy It. Two-by-four, sixteen Inches on center. Everybody
does that, so who cares? So why not? We have Industry. I
used to read and find out what there Is and I used to say,
"Well, why not use that? We have metallurgy today and our
scientific thinking and our industry. We have new
materials. Why not use them properly?" Since I didn't
believe in style — I wasn't Interested in copying style.
It was nothing but ornamentation anyway. When they talk
about style, they were talking about ornament. That's what
they were talking about. It had nothing to do with
architecture .
LASKEY: It's interesting when in the background that you
were Just talking about-- That's what made me think to ask
103
you the question about steel, that you come from a very
traditional kind of a background and a very functional
background, to have made this leap into something
nontraditional and, in fact, being interested in
eliminating traditions and dealing only with function, I
think, is very interesting.
SORIANO: Yeah, but my tradition — I am a universal
person. My tradition is the universe, you see. I'm not a
traditional person- -sectarian tradition, let's say.
LASKEY: Well, I was just thinking of the society in Rhodes
in a small island in the middle of the Aegean.
SORIANO: Yes.
LASKEY: You must have been pretty much steeped in the
tradition.
SORIANO: Well, they do. But still, I'm a clear thinker.
I'm a questioner.
LASKEY: Well, that's what is so interesting.
SORIANO: Yeah. I'm like the little fermentation, like
little yeast that ferments a great deal and questions a
great deal because-- Just because they did build it, why
not? But I look broadly. I always think new ways. Things
stimulate me. If I see something, a gadget, it always
gives me an idea. "Gosh, that could work for something; I
can do this." And I'm always eager to learn, to advance,
rather than to remain, to ruminate. It's more exciting to
104
do that because that doesn't satisfy me at all, as a human
being, to keep ruminating. No, no, no, no, no. So I've
kept questioning, kept wondering. Especially with our
industry, all kinds of materials came in. I used to look
at catalogs with new things and I used to say, "Why not do
that?"
And so since I already got this daringness between my
friends, this Cassatt Griffin particularly, would used to
tell me, "Well, you can do this and that." So immediately,
I realized this, "Who the hell is to tell me anything?"
This is all arbitrary things anyway. I can make my own
arbitrations, as long as they're working, as long as they
will be tenable from the standpoint of engineering, the
stresses and all this analysis which will work well.
So I went to steel right away. And I built the steel
floor. As a matter of fact, in the Lipetz House, you don't
even know-- You know, the floor I used the junior- -what
they call junior I-beams of steel. The whole floor's made
of steel, I-beams.
LASKEY: No, I didn't know that.
SORIANO: No, nobody knows that. They forget because they
didn't ask me and I didn't say, maybe. Now it just
occurred to me. Actually, I had the I-beams of steel.
LASKEY: So you were working with steel —
SORIANO: Then.
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LASKEY: --in 1934.
SORIANO: Yes, I did. Except the frame was wood. Then I
graduated afterwards. I began to think, "Okay, the floor
is beautiful the way it was." It was made with junior
I-beams, the little, small I-beams; they called them junior
I-beams. I used enough for the first time they came. I
used the first time these incandescent lights that were
used in the round [room]. Nobody had used them. They just
came in as a novelty. And immediately I said, "Can I get
so many of these? Can I use it?" "Oh, sure." And I have
a sheet metal man make me the trough of my own design.
Then the trains begin to use these. Even the train- -the
old streamline trains, you remember? —
LASKEY: Oh, yes.
SORIANO: All right. If you look at-- The interiors used
to have troughs like that afterwards, not before I did.
No.
LASKEY: Well, I know you've been asked before and I wanted
to ask you for the sake [of] the interview about the
influence of Neutra on your use of steel.
SORIANO: Neutra 's steel was not an influence to me or any
other material . The influence of Neutra was the assurance
that Neutra gave me from a standpoint of planning
logically. Yeah. Up to a certain point.
LASKEY: Oh, really?
106
SORIANO: Yeah. He was, at the time, I thought it was
superb, completely. But then after I began to get on my
own and start thinking more on myself, there were a lot of
things that Neutra did which I will never do, you see. But
yet Neutra was a great master and he had an excellent
sensitivity in materials and taste. And the steel that he
used was a different type of steel. What I use in steel in
my housing is different than what Neutra did, you see.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: In what way?
SORIANO: Well, I used an industrially produced steel in
modular ly planned housing. Neutra didn't do that.
LASKEY: Oh, he didn't? I thought of his houses as being
modular. I haven't looked at them that carefully.
SORIANO: No, no. I don't think they are completely
modular. They can be called-- He has an order; they're
orderly, yes.
LASKEY: But they're not modules.
SORIANO: Not the way I considered the modules, you see.
Because I plan a precise strict module like a fugue of
Bach. I will compare it to that, you see. But if you look
at the plans of Neutra, I can get any plan for you and I'll
show you why. They are totally different than mine. In
that respect, I said I did my own innovations in there, you
107
see. The influences of Neutra, yes, with the orderly, the
planning, was a great inspiration for me and I admire them
very much, in fact. And he has tremendous sensitivity in
colors, textures. And the quality — When he used to do
something, he used to do it beautifully, on grand scale.
And that, yes. That was the influence. But I don't think
I copied steel from Neutra or anything like that. No. And
it's an order that I had from Neutra.
I think we'll stop one minute and then I'll see if I
can find the — Okay. [tape recorder off]
LASKEY: So we were talking about your —
SORIANO: The module.
LASKEY: The module and also about your relationship to
Neutra or what, you know, what you had learned from him and
also, mainly, I think, it was discussing steel, how you
came to steel and your use of it as opposed to Neutra ' s or
Mies van der Rohe.
SORIANO: Well, the steel, you see, as I told you before, I
think, I was always interested in advancement. I was
interested in utilization of materials that belonged into
our age because I thought this age we were doing tremendous
strides, particularly metallurgy which, to me, sort of
almost gave me a clue to the direction of richness of
materials we can have with the metallurgy. Can you
imagine-- We have today metals that can take five thousand
108
degrees of heat and It won't buckle or melt? Well, imagine
that, what implications it will have with our skyscrapers- -
LASKEY: Right.
SORIANO: — with our building industry. Instead of
building with steel and then you have to put cement to
fireproof them, all these complications, all these
expensive things. And before you know it you have nothing
but a monster: neither a fish nor a fowl. It's a high
breed of junk. Yeah.
Make yourself at home, please. You want a pillow?
You can have it.
LASKEY: No, I've got it off the edge here. It's just my
knee was —
SORIANO: But please, make yourself more comfortable.
And the result is that I kept asking, "Why? Why go
back to chopping trees?" And then all of a sudden you find
people who, supposedly, for ecology using- -chopping
trees. [laughs] There are the ones — I have an
interesting experience here I must tell you. This is very
funny. I had two projects here in Tiburon: one, seven
units; another, twenty-five units. It's here around the
corner. About four, five, six, seven years ago. One of
the architects was sitting on the board of Tiburon City,
big, big deal. And this architect, stupid young punk I
would call him, and he was for, you know, riding the
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bandwagon of the ecology without understanding what ecology
is. And I submitted for this project what I had: the
landscaping plan, what trees-- There were a lot of trees in
there which were rooted, bad roots, many of them were
toppled. And then I had the landscape plan that I made and
I had also a consultation of a Japanese tree surgeon or
tree expert to examine all the things and gave me a letter
to that effect. He said that the plan I have is even more
conservative. If he were here he would remove many of the
other trees because eventually they would be bad, the
others--the young ones won't grow as well. I said they
should remove these. But this architect sitting on the
planning board said, "I don't want a single tree
removed." Just like that, arbitrarily.
LASKEY: A single —
SORIANO: And he kept — Yeah. In other words, he kept
making it-- And then we've been delaying three months like
that back and forth. I marked all the trees to be removed
so the board could go over--the planning commission would
go and see. He went through all these delaying tactics.
And my client told me, he said, "Raphael, I know you're
very strong and don't-- Just let them talk. Maybe this way
they might be able to give us the permit." He was scared
that I would antagonize them. I said, "Don't worry about
it." And so finally he realized the delaying tactics and
110
the stupidity of them. This poor guy was having loans from
Switzerland, from a friend, and they were hounding him:
"When are you going to start building?" So finally--this
is an interesting story — Then he realized that the thing
was a no return. So he says to me, "Go ahead, do whatever
you want. I'm fed up with them." So I went and I faced
him. I went right to this architect. His name is
[Charles] Bassett.
LASKEY: Bassett.
SORIANO: Bassett like a wurst. The dogs I won't even
insult them. I said, "Look, you, how many houses have you
built?" He said, "Well, not as many as you, Mr. Soriano,
of course." And I said, "All right. What materials did
you use?" He said, "What [does] this have to do with
it?" And I said, "Plenty. You use nothing but wood, isn't
it? And here you sit there pompously, you don't want to
cut trees because you're concerned with the ecology, with
nature, isn't it? I haven't used a stitch of wood since
the year 1936." [laughter] I said, "And you sit pompously
doing that to me, delaying this job and my clients, too."
And then I had another twenty- five units around the
corner, too, the same way, he was delaying it. And then
finally the president of the board realized, you know, he
said, "Well, we have another architect." And then he
became the mayor, this other architect. It was Mr. [Bruce]
111
Ross from here [Tiburon] . He was a charming man. So he
got up and bow[ed] at me. He says, "Far be for me to
criticize Mr. Soriano's work." And this punk Bassett had
given a memo, interoffice memo, saying, "Well, I don't see
that the plan that Soriano gave us is any kind of
conventional type of planning." Imagine the jackass? "It
isn't any conventional type of a plan that he gave us." He
was giving that-- [It was] confidential, but it was given
to me as confidential and I have it. And that really made
me furious. I said, "This punk sitting there — " So
immediately they gave me the permit that night. But the
next morning there was the water moratorium.
LASKEY: Oh, no.
SORIANO: You couldn't build this. Now, we lost — Two
projects I lost, and [they] could have been sitting
beautifully today. Yes. This is the tragedy of life. By
a colleague who is insipid, stupid, mean- -jealous, no
doubt--a little punk sitting there in a planning
commission, "Ah-ha. I want to fix that Soriano, " you
know. "Big Soriano." And I'm sure there are many people
like that. They are pompous peanut-brains. Instead of
being gracious and nice and understanding and learn
something that he didn't have in his brains. So that's it,
and I lost several jobs like that. And that's why —
LASKEY: That's very sad.
112
SORIANO: — you see my innovations. Again, you see, I use
aluminum instead of using sticks of wood. [laughs]
Conserving trees and forest. We have — We can do today not
only that, but you see, I can span — Imagine, I can span
thirty-six feet in this low-cost housing, the smallest
ones — I can span thirty-six feet without any supports in
between. Can you imagine? You know what thirty-six feet
is? This is twelve feet, I mean, sixteen-- Let's see, six--
Yeah, this is twelve feet, those two tables.
LASKEY: So it's three times —
SORIANO: Three times that. I can span with two columns,
one on each end. And this column's this big.
LASKEY: Well, the flexibility and low cost and —
SORIANO: And also the durability, too. When an
earthquake, they will do this, but they won't fall. The
airplane wing does this, it doesn't fall, does it? Now,
this is the way I plan. So, in this case, I said, "Well,
why not use this beautiful material." And they're not
expensive at all; they're cheaper. I can build four
houses. We get into it, I'll show you. In one day I could
put the frame of four houses: the columns, the beams, the
finish, ceiling, and the roof including all the connectors
to receive vertical walls. All this installed in one day,
four houses, with six unskilled men.
Now, do you mind, do you realize the implications that
113
Is that in housing? I send the brochures to the president
of the United States, to [James E.] Carter at that time,
and to Rosalynn [Carter], to both I addressed it. I get
very nice letters, from [Gary] Hart, too: "When you have
some projects we will be able to help give you--" When I
have — But nobody wants this. You go to the jackass
builders, to the bankers, to the developers; they don't
want. They want this junk that you see here in Tiburon.
This.
LASKEY: Why?
SORIANO: Because they're ignorant; they don't know
anything. They're so ignorant they think this sells — This
has been sold, has been selling because of the way they
have made the economy. They think that's going to make
money. The other, they think, "Oh, well, this is an
untried thing." They don't know — But it is not untried.
Already it's been — It's history already. Yeah. That's
what I have to put up with.
And many people ask me, "Soriano, with all your name,
all your fame, why, why?" Even my love over here, she
asked me that same question. Yes. And the reason is
because of the ignorance of other people and because they
don't want to relinquish their nostalgia. They go by
nostalgia rather by reason.
LASKEY: And they're afraid of something new.
114
SORIANO: That's exactly.
LASKEY: Well, now you built the Eichler House. That was
an aluminum house. That was aluminum, wasn't it?
SORIANO: Steel. Steel.
LASKEY: That was — Oh, that was steel. So the only
aluminum houses you've done are the ones in Hawaii.
SORIANO: In Hawaii. And I did one in Los Angeles which I
don't even want to mention because of-- I'll tell you; it's
a long story.
LASKEY: But even the steel house that you did for Eichler,
which, at least in the photographs, looks —
SORIANO: It's a beautiful thing.
LASKEY : - -wonderful .
SORIANO: It is. They're lovely houses.
LASKEY: And he built it. Why didn't he pursue it?
SORIANO: I'll tell you why. [Joseph] Eichler was a big
funny guy as much as the rest of them. He used to-- You
know what, you know, Eichler, Eichler had all these big
publicity names. If you know the real truth you will
shiver, as I know some of the truth that I have been in
contact with them, including John Entenza, and the Case
Study houses. Yeah. Many people don't know some of the
things that I might tell you in the proceeds of this
conversations. Coming to Eichler- -
Eichler didn't have any taste to come to me, but he
115
went to — he made a deal with [A.] Quincy Jones and
[Frederick] Emmons, you see. Quincy Jones used to Imitate
my houses. Yeah. Yeah. This Is history. As a matter of
fact, Bernardl, you know, with Bernardl — [William W.]
Wurster, [Theodore C] Bernardl and [Donn] Emmons, you
know. Bernardl, one day, at one of the lectures, somebody
asked him, "What do you think of Quincy Jones?" "What the
hell Quincy Jones has done that Soriano hasn't done
thousand times better?" He said that to him, you know.
It's true. Quincy Jones was trying to Imitate me because
he never did this type of thing before.
LASKEY: But he did a lot of large-scale housing, didn't
he? Jones?
SORIANO: Well, yes.
LASKEY: Yeah.
SORIANO: Naturally, because they used to — He used to work
for Elchler, used to give him fifty dollars a house, in
repetitions. Yeah. And he will do anything Eichler
wanted. And he used to get the wood houses, the wood type
of systems .
LASKEY: Yeah. And so he did more wood. He did--
SORIANO: The wood type of the —
LASKEY: He worked in more traditional materials, at least,
if not in design.
SORIANO: That's right. Well, they didn't even in the
116
design, you see. The wood houses that even Neutra and I
did, they were capitalized afterwards by putting instead of
a flat roof, they used to put little things like that. The
rest were our imitation of Neutra and mine, even in the
wood. They were not as original as you think. I mean,
most people they don't know immediately they take this [as
original] because he has done so many, you know.
Immediately the publicity brings them up as--
LASKEY: Oh, right.
SORIANO: — they are the ones. But in reality, they're
not. They were just the imitations of what Neutra did and
what I did. Yeah. And what even Harris did. And they
used to capitalize and make this into a big thing. He used
to get along with Eichler giving them fifty dollars a
house, every two-- I have a contract here that I even have
that Eichler gave me.
LASKEY: Well, who was Eichler?
SORIANO: He was a butter-and-egg man. [laughter] A
shrewd butter-and-egg man that he saw the potential. Being
a clever little Jew, he realized that — Don't forget, I'm a
Jewish man, too —
LASKEY: I know, I know.
SORIANO: — so I can say that. [laughter]
LASKEY: How did they get into building? Is that--
SORIANO: Well, because —
117
LASKEY: --Just that really was what happened?
SORIANO: — he was a butter-and-egg man, he saw the
potential of that. And with little money saved-- They're
pretty clever. The Jews are very enterprising, you know.
They're really wonderfully alert to anything that is to get
money. Why do you suppose all these beatnik and all these
million of records are sold? You investigate that you'll
see whose there behind all of that. They're money-makers;
that's all. That's the reason they are capitalizing and
publicizing. This way-- Publicity you can sell anything.
LASKEY: Whatever makes money.
SORIANO: Exactly, darling. That's the whole tragedy. I
always say that if there is some sensitive man that will
see what we have with concocted publicity, we can make
millions. And this can grow like wildfire. I've been
still fighting on that, and I'm going to do it, by golly.
I'm not finished yet.
LASKEY: [laughter] I can tell that.
SORIANO: I'm not finished yet. I send hundreds of
brochures all over from Australia to Japan to Iran to Saudi
Arabia. Yes.
LASKEY: It just fascinates me because it is so sensible.
It's inexpensive and, heaven knows, we need inexpensive
housing at this time.
SORIANO: And beautiful and logical.
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LASKEY: It's logical. It's simple. It's simple to put
together. It's inexpensive. In a world that's crying out
for housing like that, why isn't it picked up--why don't
governments pick up on it?
SORIANO: Well, the governments, of course, are a bunch of
people, again, the nostalgias. Most of them are extremely
conservative. And the very few of them who are of the
intelligence, sensitive enough, to really come out and
understand with logic and reality, says, "Yes, that has
merit." I had a project almost in the, with the model
cities. I show you letters. Next time I'll see it.
Tomorrow. I'll show you those, the model cities. They
said, "They are the best prefabricated houses they've ever
seen by their research engineers . " That was for Richmond
[California]. Yes. They wanted to have funds and all
that. There were very few that will buy. They said,
"Houses like that? Flat roofs?" They always go — They
think unless you have this, it's not a house. I said,
"What is the meretricious about a flat roof?" I said, "Do
you-- Your car has a jagged roof?" [laughter]
LASKEY: Pointed roof?
SORIANO: And yet they don't question that. I said, "A
train has that? Your plane have that?" But, you see, when
it comes to house — Years ago, as a member for Consolidated
Voltee Aircraft [Company]-- You know who they were? That
119
was during the war. They were making very fancy planes for
the army.
LASKEY: Consolidated Aircraft?
SORIANO: Vol tee. Consolidated Vol tee. Voltee.
LASKEY: Voltee? No.
SORIANO: Yeah. They were very, very big manufacturers of
planes. They were involved with the war effort. At the
time I had a-- The vice president of the corporation was
George Tidmarsh, was a friend of mine. I met him. And we
were discussing — I said, "Look, you know, there will be a
need immediately after the war." That was in '39 already,
you see. "If there's a war, or even now, and after the
war, there will be a need of housing." And I said, "How
about really stimulating your industry, the aircraft
industry to fabricate these houses of mine since they are
made of metal?" And I designed a beautiful house of metal,
like an airplane. Yeah. I'll show you the drawings.
We had a meeting and the chairman of the board- -who do
you suppose it was?--was a certain, a scientist from
Caltech [California Institute of Technology], Los Angeles,
Pasadena. I forgot his name. And he said-- He was the
chairman of the board, and the first criticism I got was
from him, a scientist from Caltech, telling — He said, "Mr.
Soriano, can we put some colonial type of an entrance,
porches?" I said, "Why do you want to do that? Do you do
120
that to your planes?" I said to him. He said, "No, but
houses, you know, we have to have sales. We have to have
appeal of the public."
I said, "Don't you set the appeal yourself? All the
planes set the appeal. People have nothing to do with
it. The cars set the appeal by the fabricators. The
people never put an input in this. Then it becomes
familiar." I said, "You have to dare. You have to really
do it." And this is the question I'm telling you. It has
to do with this incompetent, nostalgic brains who think
this should look like that otherwise it won't sell, instead
of being daring enough and say, "Let's try. Let's put a
few — " I always tell, "Put a half a dozen of them and see
what the public says."
LASKEY: Yeah.
SORIANO: Yeah. Well, no — Some of them said, "Well, how
about putting one example." I said, "No. One won't
show. Few, yes, because I gave a varieties. Then we'll
suit different people, then you'll see that you don't scare
the public in this case. Then you give them differences:
different textures, different colors, even different
planning. And I can show you the different varieties they
could be instead of saying, "Well, won't they be all
monotonous?" And yet they don't talk about that being
monotonous, this thing on Tiburon, you know. They're all
121
the same- -exactly the same.
LASKEY: Exactly.
SORIANO: They don't say this Is monotonous. And yet they
will tell monotonous at mine because they sit simple, you
see. They don't see the nuances within that I can make,
millions of them. That's why I want to show with different
plans, different samples together. Plan and relationship,
one to the other, then they can see what they can do. But
no; there's nobody. You talk to them and you might as well
talk to the moon. I think I can get better response from
the moon, I can assure you. It's a sick thing, really, to
me to think that there is this magnificent potential of
making money at the same time of serving the public and
giving some beautiful housing, beautiful planned housing.
Instead of all these sickening things.
Or either they talk about how our standards have to
change, FHA [Federal Housing Administration] have to change
their requirements. They make an arbitrary statement that
a room has to be this, so many square feet. And the
average person cannot afford that. They don't have to be
rooms-- They don't have to put so many square feet,
especially bedrooms that you sleep at night only. They can
be smaller room and very cozy, but yet FHA requires that.
To give you a loan they have to be that. I used to fight
with the FHA, you don't know how many times.
122
LASKEY: Well, didn't banks used to have--or some banks at
least — have a requirement that it have a hipped roof — ?
SORIANO: Oh, yes.
LASKEY: — that you couldn't build a house or you couldn't
get it past the planning commission or planning, the board,
if it had a — house had a flat roof?
SORIANO: This is exactly — Set by this nostalgic, ignorant
people, whether they're bankers, real estate men,
professors of universities, or whatever, or movie stars.
They have misconceptions of what a house will be. They go
by their own comfortable impression of what a house was
with their grandfathers, maybe. Therefore, they want
everything to be like that instead of seeing something as
an advancement, like we do on our cars and every gadget.
We want the latest thing. We don't want the antiquated
things. Yet when it comes to a house, nope. I give
articles that I wrote on that.
LASKEY: Well, it's a very interesting point that we do
modernize in our clothes —
SORIANO : Everything .
LASKEY: --in our hair.
SORIANO : Everything .
LASKEY: Except houses.
SORIANO: Yeah. Look at these little instruments. Look at
this new cooking--what do you call it?--the —
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LASKEY: Microwave?
SORIANO: Microwaves, yes. In three minutes, brip, you can
cook, you can heat, yet that's the latest thing. Everyone
says, "Oh, you don't have a microwave? Oh, la, la. Why
not?" Well-- But, you see, they are propagated by these
ignorant people who have the power of the money. And the
developers, they are the biggest retarders of progress, are
these scavengers which I call them: the bankers, the real
estate people, the lenders who make the standards-- They
set the tone. When they write it, subdivide,
subdevelopment , they're the ones who write that with the
attorneys: "You should conform to the neighborhood quality
of housing." I'll tell you what happened to me once and to
Neutra. The same thing happened with FHA. I'm going back
in the early thirties: '34, '36. They used to reject our
plans, Neutra 's and mine, too. And finally we wrote to
Washington [D.C], and then they asked us to resubmit. And
we did. And just in spite they will approve one and reject
one just so they can save their face. That's the way they
used to play that game. Or they will give you $500 less.
In those days, you know, $500-- If you build a $5,000
house, if FHA gave you $500 less, that's quite a lot of
money. I used to end up usually giving half —
LASKEY: That's 10 percent.
SORIANO: — of that. Half of that to — Five hundred. I
124
said, "I'll give you a part of my fee as a gift. So help
me; I did that many times. And I said, "Could you find the
other $250 so you can make it possible?" And this is what
I did, several of them. One time — Let me tell you what
happened. I'll give you two interesting examples that's
really part of history. I did submit a plan, rejected by
these fossils, the real estate fossils who set the FHA
appraisal: "He doesn't conform to the neighborhood." And
so finally I just got incensed. So two, three times,
"Well, it doesn't conform to the neighborhood." I said
okay. So I went and took photographs of all the houses in
the neighborhood. They were five, six different type of
so-called styles. So I took the photographs and said, "All
right, here, sir." Ten photographs. "Which one of these
you want me to conform to?" [laughter] He said, "Well,
you're the architect." [laughter] I said, "I know, but
you're the one that's telling me it doesn't conform to the
neighborhood, so you tell me. What's the neighborhood to
conform to?" And of course I got them there, you see. And
I argued with the point. And finally, after going back to
another person who's above him, "Well, I've nothing to do
with it," blah, blah. They save face. And I say, "This is
shameful." I said, "You have a much more beautifully
designed house, more livable," and I get their approval.
But it used to take pains and aggravations. I have another
125
one: The house I designed for Dr. Gogol. We got the loan
already — this is interesting —
LASKEY: Yeah.
SORIANO: — and all of a sudden, after it was under
construction, I got a petition from the neighborhood to
stop construction and the lending agency sent us a
notice: "We're going to withdraw the loan because the
people in the neighborhood — they're complaining it doesn't
conform to the neighborhood." After already we had their
approval of the FHA and the lending agency.
LASKEY: Oh, my.
SORIANO: And here we are under construction, payroll.
I'll tell you, I went from door to door to door to door
pleading with everyone. "Well, Mr. Soriano, you know, we
have a good neighborhood here, we have to keep it--" And I
said, "I'm not violating anything, am I?" I said, "I'm
giving you very beautiful--" "Well, there is not a flat
roof house here." I said, "Is that all the problem?" He
said, "Well, you know, it has to conform to this
neighborhood." I said, "Well, let me tell you
something." I said, "I have decks, they're all decks from
the living areas, from different areas to go. Don't you
think it's good, because a hillside like that and I
converted those beautiful areas of deck so the people could
enjoy the outdoors. Is that a--anything wrong? I think
126
it's the best thing. You should thank me for it." "No,
well, you know, flat roof. Well, they all look flat, they
don't--"
So finally, at the very top I had a studio for the
doctor, for Dr. Gogol, an office, a small one, ten by
twelve. And it was flat, also. It was finished already.
And I said, "I'll tell you what I'll do." I said, "You
want me to put a hip roof like that on top? Would that
help? " " Now you ' re talking . "
I said, "Fine. All right." So immediately I sent a
carpenter and I said, "The roof is finished anyway.
Instead of two-by- threes or two-by- fours, " I said, "put
two-by-twos and tack the shingles — It'll just be one
tack. Let the wind blow the damn things up off after we
finish and get the loan." And they moved in and we did
that. That's exactly what happened. Yeah. [laughter]
Well, what else can I do with those jokers? You tell
me. They just about blew my top. I mean, really, if I
were not strong, I would have collapsed underneath of all
this and said, "Well, what the hell is the use of all this
trouble." Really. You have no idea what--how they make
you miserable. It's not only the clients you fight with.
Them, at least you can reason with them. They invariably
come to-- Sometime they have come with nostalgic ideas,
too. But that doesn't matter. This is for their own
127
good. I say, "Look, you let me do that and if you don't
like it, I'll change it for you free of charge, okay? Then
at least you'll see it." And then they realize that I was
right.
LASKEY: Right.
SORIANO: In fact, I had a client who said once — I
received an award and then I invited him to the dining--to
the table to Los Angeles; they flew in. And they were
talking among themselves, and one of them said I was-- The
Hallawell Seed Company, Mr. McNabb, the president, he said,
"Every time we lost an argument with Soriano, we won. " Was
a nice statement, isn't it?
LASKEY: Right. It really is.
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: Well, it's difficult enough to deal with a client,
but when you have a whole--an entire neighborhood —
SORIANO: You have the neighborhood, then you have the
building department. You know, when I built the Jewish
Community Center in Boyle Heights, did you know what I had
to do with it, too?
LASKEY: No.
SORIANO: I had the three-and-a-half-inch, extrastrong
pipes occuring every twelve feet. The ordinance in those
days in the county was all Lally columns had to be six
inches thick in diameter. And so I went there, the
128
engineers said, "Look, these are not Lally columns."
"Besides," I said, "they have enough [strength]."
And he said, "Well, you know, the ordinance says Lally
columns have to be — "
I said, "These are not Lally columns, sir." [laughter]
LASKEY: They're not even pretending to be Lally columns,
[laughter]
SORIANO: No. They are steel columns and they are three
and a half inches in diameter and they are sufficient for
three stories. The building [has] only two. And I said,
"Here are the calculations. Here are my stresses, my
engineering data here. Just see for yourself."
"Well, I'm sorry, but the ordinance says — "
I said, "Well, let me speak to your chief engineer,
please. "
"Well, let me see if he's in." Well, he looks in and
he was in. He comes out.
"What's the matter?"
I said-- Again, same repetition. Then he opens the
book again.
"Well, I'm sorry, but the ordinance says they have to
be six-inch [pipes]."
And I said, "But sir, you're an engineer. Look at the
calculations I have here. Will you please look at the
stresses? They're more than even the requirement with the
129
six-inch columns I have in my three-and-a-half-inch extra-
strong columns of steel . "
"Sorry, but the ordinance says--"
I said, "Anybody above you I can appeal to?"
"Yeah. Appeal to the board. It meets every other
Thursday." I did.
LASKEY: Good.
SORIANO: I said, "All right." I did. And I went there
and I appealed my case. I said, "Really, I don't
understand why should this ordinance be like that to begin
with. Why shouldn't they be flexible?" And I said, "Here
are the calculations." There was an engineer; he looked at
it and so on. They — Finally, they gave me — said, "Well,
this time I think we'll let you go with it." They talked
among themselves; they realized how wrong they were. "This
time we'll let you — We'll give you the permit." And I got
the permit. So we were the outspoken ones. The next year
they changed the ordinance. There was not such a clause in
there, you see.
LASKEY: Well, there are battles that get won.
SORIANO: Well, yes, but how many of them do? How many of
my colleagues do that? They take the line of least
resistance and therefore, I cannot relate to them. They
don't help me! They don't help themselves either and they
don't help the public. The public loses out. Yeah. This
130
is where it bothers me, really. And then our education of
the students is even pathetic due to the fact that we're
wasting all this youth with all this misconceptions. And
then the result is they come out completely Ignorant, and
the result is we have our cities being contaminated with
this mess. And this is pathetic and tragic and insulting
to our society, truly. And yet nobody opens their mouth;
they don't say a word. "Don't rock the boat," like Dean
Wurster at University of California, Berkeley, used to say;
therefore, I don't — I'm not invited to lecture at Cal. But
[at] Los Angeles Cal [University of California, Los
Angeles] I did lecture.
LASKEY: Good.
SORIANO: But because my client paid for it, see.
Interesting —
LASKEY : There ' s a way around these things .
SORIANO: I know. It has to be men of goodwill, you must
have. Yeah, isn't it? Yeah, it must be men of goodwill
to--
Look how beautiful these little things [microphones]
are. Aren't they superb? It took several brains to devise
this instead of the old big microphones.
LASKEY: They're fantastic.
SORIANO: They are exquisite.
LASKEY: They really are.
131
SORIANO: This size, already, instead of that size. They
used to be heavy. Look at that crate over here. That
weighs seventy-five pounds. That was one of the Webster
tape recorders, the first one that came out. Look how
beautifully designed it was. It has one speed only; seven-
and-a-half. But the speaker, the tone is lousy because in
those days, you know, went back [with little
experimentation] .
LASKEY: But that was state-of-the-art.
SORIANO: That was the one. And then it was beautiful the
way it turns out. But look at it now; they're even smaller
ones than that.
LASKEY: Much smaller. This is a big one.
SORIANO: Of course. And I'll tell you, it makes me
think. It makes me think a lot. And this requires men of
goodwill, people who dare. They dare in this area, but we
don't dare in housing, in architecture. Very most
antiquated mess! Yes.
132
TAPE NUMBER: III, SIDE ONE
JULY 20, 1985
LASKEY: According to Esther McCoy's bibliography of your
work, in 1938 you did the Austrian House, the Polito House,
the Ross House, and the Lee and Cady Warehouse. Now, those
are all important house — projects.
SORIANO: The Lee and Cady was before '37. That was a
wrong date.
LASKEY: Okay.
SORIANO: Yeah. That was way, way in '36, I believe.
LASKEY: Really? Okay.
SORIANO: Lee and Cady was a steel building which I did
with Ruppell, the name she mentions there that Fritz
Ruppell was my mentor, which was not right. He was a
friend of mine. I mean, she romanticized all kinds of
things which I never said.
LASKEY: What about Fritz Ruppell?
SORIANO: Fritz Ruppell was the president of the Lattice
Steel Corporation of California. He used to make
prefabricated light steel construction near the
prefabricating plant in Pasadena. And I, in fact, would
work with him. We advised him to make prefabricated lift
slabs using lattice steel, with one-inch plumber's tape.
And I was responsible to work with him. And I said, "Why
don't you do that and that way. And then to lift already
133
precast cement walls on the floor with this lattice steel
of his, putting cement, and then with two hooks lift them
up after they were cured." Yeah, they were the first
prefabricated cement walls, sections of walls.
LASKEY: And you worked with him —
SORIANO: Yes, on that.
LASKEY: — to develop those?
SORIANO : Yes .
LASKEY: How did you meet him?
SORIANO: I met him through, I believe, if my memory
doesn't fail me, through an engineer friend of mine in the
county. I think it was a friend of Cassatt Griffin which I
mentioned before. And I can't recollect his name, but I'll
have it. I have it in my records. And he was a lovely
person. They were a friend of his because being an
engineer in Pasadena they knew each other. So he
[Griffin's friend] introduced him to me, and then from
there on our friendship flourished. And then immediately I
was consultant for the Lee and Cady, and then I immediately
went and we started doing work in the steel, you see. And
I did the [George and Ida Latz Memorial] Jewish Community
Center, was a steel building; Lattice Steel Corporation of
California built it, you see. And then the house, too, was
done at the same time, my first steel house with this type
of system, light steel.
134
LASKEY: Now, I call that, your first steel house, the Katz
House, but you prefer to call it the Gato House.
SORIANO: I call it Gato for this reason: He [Milton Katz]
was a dishonest man, he chiseled my fees by pretending that
he didn't have any money, that he spent all the money in
the house which was — I helped him even, built it so it
wouldn't cost him too much, because Lattice Steel did it
and I asked him not to charge him too much. And then he
said, "My wife's pregnant — we're going to have a baby. Do
you mind waiting for your fee?" I said, "That's all
right." At the time I was busy and it didn't even matter
to me. I waited a couple of years or so. Then all of a
sudden I got very busy and I needed the payroll and I
called him. I said — I forgot — Milton, yes — "Milton, will
you please--" "Oh, gee, I haven't got it." And then I
learned afterwards that he was the owner of several
theaters, movie houses in Hollywood. He had the Newsreel
Theater and several other theater houses. And yeah, they
used to make money in those days. Everybody used to go to
the movies. And he didn't have it. And then I said,
"Well, can you pay me $100 a month?" It's $500 he owed
me. And, "Oh, I haven't got it." "How about $50?" "No,
no, no." I said, "Twenty- five?" "Well, I'll see. Twenty-
five — " I said, "Well, let's do that and I want to get
through because I need this money." I said, "Milton, I
135
didn't charge you interest or anything." Then he said,
"Okay." He agreed. And then he took two months and he
sends me $15. Then my secretary and I used to call and
call and call. And then he used to delay weeks and he used
to send me $5. I mean, this kind of thing — Finally, my
secretary said, "I'm sick and tired. I don't want to do
it. I get so wrapped up with this." And I said, "Well,
forget it. We'll drop it." And so, therefore, this is
what happened. I published the house and I called it the
Gato House; Katz —
LASKEY: Spanish.
SORIANO: — in Spanish, Gato. [laughter] I called it
that. So I wouldn't give him the credit to put his name
there and I don't see why — Because he didn't contribute
anything. I did it.
LASKEY: Well, I was going to ask you about that because
[Paul] Heyer in his book Architects on Architecture refers
to it as the Gato House.
SORIANO : Yes .
LASKEY: Esther McCoy refers to it as the Katz House- -
SORIANO: Well, she made a —
LASKEY: --and I was interested- -
SORIANO: Esther doesn't check with me all these things.
She should have because I-- This is exactly why I did it.
Now you know the true story. And that will be in my book
136
that way, too.
LASKEY: Well, now, the Katz House, or the Gato House —
SORIANO : Yeah .
LASKEY: — actually was a little bit later, right? That
was in the early forties and after the houses- -
SORIANO: After I built the —
LASKEY: — like the Polito House.
SORIANO: --after I built the Jewish Conununity Center in
'38.
LASKEY: After the —
SORIANO: Yeah, about that, about '37, '38. Yeah.
LASKEY: But I think in particular there- -the Polito House
has always looked like an extremely interesting structure
built on the three levels.
SORIANO: Well, yes. It was in a very steep hillside in
Hollywood and I built it that way because that was the most
logical thing. And I put a beautiful little three-story
cube and then I have a lovely bridge across to go to the
grounds which is very elegant.
LASKEY: Now, most-- Now, on the street side is mostly a
blank facade, right?
SORIANO: That's right. On the street is a blank facade.
The garage is down below the first floor and then we go up
the lovely stairs and there are rooms with few lights on
the-- But everything's facing towards the gardens and park
137
which was the [garden aviers] in there. Yeah. So, in
other words , why put on the street things that you don ' t
want on the street. Big glasses, I put small glasses
[windows] .
LASKEY: Well, and I also read, in one of the magazines it
was published in, that under the stairways, I believe, had
a sandblasted —
SORIANO: Glass.
LASKEY: — glass window to let light —
SORIANO: It's huge.
LASKEY: — to light up the stairway.
SORIANO: That's right.
LASKEY: Must have — get beautiful light.
SORIANO: It's lovely; it's beautiful. The whole thing is
a lovely house. One of my wood houses? [laughs]
LASKEY: But all of these houses would have been wood
houses —
SORIANO: They were all —
LASKEY: --until--
SORIANO: Yes.
LASKEY: — until you got into steel which came —
SORIANO: With the Gato House.
LASKEY: — later. It came with the Gato House. But there
was the, as I say and according to these records, you did
four or five houses in one year, and that must have been
138
also at the time when you had your accident.
SORIANO : No .
LASKEY: But you — No? Was this after?
SORIANO: No. Before the accident I had several houses,
and after the accident I did also a few. I have to check
in my records exactly what the dates [are]. Unfortunately,
I don't have them in my brains at this point.
LASKEY: Another house that was published a lot and that
was fascinating and that, unfortunately, seems to have been
really destroyed in the process was the Lukens House.
SORIANO: Oh, yes. The Lukens was a lovely house. It was
a beautiful house I did. That was before my accident.
Sure.
SORIANO: I have it as 1940. Is that wrong?
SORIANO: I believe so. This was done before, I believe,
at the time it was taken.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: Yes, because he [Glen Lukens] bought himself the
old garden from an old estate, wherever it was. I forgot
even the address. Do you have it there?
LASKEY: Yes, 3425 West Twenty- seventh Street- -
SORIANO: West Twenty- seventh Street.
LASKEY: Which is Just off Adams [Boulevard] .
SORIANO: Yes. That's right. And he had — It was an old,
old house- -estate, big garden. He bought that garden and I
139
built for him — I think It was before my accident. Yeah,
because I was going to USC [University of Southern
California] then and I knew Glen Lukens was a ceramlclst;
was a professor of ceramics there. Yeah. And the dates
are wrong because I will look Into that when it — You see,
sometimes when they are published, they might be published
later than they appear as if they are like that, you see.
LASKEY: Okay.
SORIANO: I have to really check my dates myself because
the drawings will tell exactly when.
LASKEY: Yeah. Most of the information I have shows it as
1940.
SORIANO: Well--
LASKEY: But that's--
SORIANO: It could have been before my —
LASKEY: But as you say, that's just when it was published,
SORIANO : Sure , sure .
LASKEY: And it was a combination of a studio —
SORIANO: It was a studio in one side and I put this
beautiful frosted glass, sandblasted glass to get all the
light in there. And then [there] was a beautiful balcony
with veranda to go to the living areas on one side and the
studio on the other side, yeah, with a garage, which was
very beautiful, really. It was an exciting house. And I
did everything. I designed all the interiors; I always do.
140
LASKEY: Oh, you do? I was going to ask you because —
SORIANO: Always. I always —
LASKEY: — you had done the interior in this one,
specifically because there are pictures of it.
SORIANO: I did the interiors of every one of my wood
houses. Yeah. Every one. The Austrian, the Driver, the
Gogol House, the Lipetz House, everything else. I did all
the interiors as well. I always do that, including the
landscaping.
LASKEY: Oh, you did the landscaping?
SORIANO: I always did all the landscaping in all my
buildings. Yes, ma'am. Yeah, because I know — I'm a good
gardener and I love, I love blossoms, I love trees. I used
to go and select the most beautiful plants.
LASKEY: Did you ever get a lot of static from your clients
about, in conflict, with what they wanted and with what you
wanted?
SORIANO: No. No, because I discuss that with them. I'm
very open. I discuss before even-- Because they have to
pay for it. And I said, "Look--" And they used to give me
discounts-- Evans and Reeves, I remember in Los Angeles,
used to be the big nursery gardens. And they used to give
me discounts on all the plants and I used to turn them [the
discounts] over to the client. I did. I always did
that. To me, I wanted to do the thing beautifully and I
141
didn't care. You know, my fee in architecture was
enough. I didn't even charge them for the interiors,
extras, or anything like that, except the house on 111
Stone Canyon, but that's another story. But otherwise, I
used to do the interiors with the same cost, you know, with
ten percent. Everything as the cost, yeah. Which was not
enough, but then I wanted this to be well and I want the
clients to--to really be--to afford it. And for that
reason I used to be gracious enough, I think, to really be
cooperative so that at least to make it possible, and it
helped me and it helped them.
LASKEY: Now, with the Lukens House you already had a
garden. So what did you —
SORIANO: It was a big estate, actually, big, big--a lot of
grounds. And we planted a few little trees here and there
and some flowers around the house. But the rest of it was
old, old trees and all that.
LASKEY: That's what I wondered, if you sited the house to--
in the garden to take advantage of it.
SORIANO: You brought up a very good point. I did. We
studied the grounds and then there were a lot of big trees
and I put the house within this complex of trees. Yeah.
Yeah. It was oriented so to take advantage of the trees
and the beautiful old oak trees. And the photographs that
were published, as you can see, have that lovely quality.
142
Yeah. So I remember one tree which was a beautiful old
one. New, you know, a new lot, usually you plant a tree by
the time they grow — It does not have this lovely quality
of nature.
My god, I'm supposed to give you coffee. Remember?
I've been boiling the water.
LASKEY: Actually, I turned the water — It — When I went to
the—
SORIANO: You did? [tape recorder off]
LASKEY: Go back to the Lee and Cady Warehouse for a minute
because that was-- Would that be considered your first
steel building? Do you consider that--
SORIANO: It was considered not my own entire creation,
no. It was — I was sort of a consultant for [Fritz]
Ruppell. And he had another architect that he — friend of
his that used to work, but he was not very creative
according to Ruppell. And so I was there trying to make it
[a] little more creative. And still-- And he had already
some plans done which I kept fixing it, cleaning them up
with more order, you see.
LASKEY: [laughter] Right.
SORIANO: Yeah. This is the Lee and Cady.
LASKEY: But how-- Lee and Cady was in Michigan and it just
seems like —
SORIANO: Ferndale, Michigan. It was a Quaker products —
143
Quaker Oats. Yeah, because of Fritz Ruppell. Um-hm. And
I had, a house that I did years later, my forty- foot spans
in Youngs town, Ohio.
LASKEY: Oh.
SORIANO: Yeah. Very few people know that.
LASKEY: Well, did this spark a greater interest in steel
or —
SORIANO: No, I went-- You see, I right away went into
steel because I saw the potential of metallurgy, the
potential of steel. Because with wood, you know, what do
you do? It's just simply try to-- Well, the same old
stuff, and all you do is just put those little sticks all
over the place. And I said this is not the way to build.
This is uneconomical, clumsy, costly, the labor, and then
the result is wrong. You have four walls to hold a little
room with these two-by-fours. In mine, I don't need
that. I liberated right away. I went into complete
freedom having just no obstacles. I said why not? Why not
have the structure to be self-tenable than anything else
inside to be flexible. A bomb could go off and yet the
structure will still stand, you see. You still have the
shelter. And this is the fact I did the office building of
Adolph's in Burbank that same way. All this stuff came
from different parts of the United States. All
prefabricated to be assembled in Burbank. Yeah.
144
There's no bearing wall there. When you go inside,
you'll see there's no bearing wall in this whole area.
There 're only those columns that I showed you yesterday.
There are three columns eight inches in- -eight-by-eight
I-beams of steel, spanning forty- foot modules in one
direction and twenty in the other. That's the whole
module. And then two cantilevers like that; one twenty
feet and one ten feet to take care of the whole lot.
That's all.
LASKEY: Leaving the interior free —
SORIANO: Completely free.
LASKEY: — to do anything you want to —
SORIANO: And I remember many times when I built houses
like that, afterwards people used to say, "What is that?
Is that a house?" And I said, "Yes." "Well, where are the
rooms?" I said, "You wait. They'll be there." We used to
finish the whole thing: finish the ceiling, the roof, and
all the floors were finished, and then we used to install
the walls, the outside enclosure. And then the inside
still was a huge cube, empty. And then the cabinets used
to make the rooms, prefabricated cabinets. That's what I
did. I have some details of that. This is the method that
I used and I've been using it ever since. Yeah.
LASKEY: Were those cabinets, once they got in, they were
movable, right?
145
SORIANO: Yes. You can move them.
LASKEY: So that if you wanted to rearrange the size —
SORIANO: Yeah, but it would be kind of hard for anybody- -
one person to do it.
LASKEY: But it could be done.
SORIANO: Oh, of course. We did-- As a matter of fact,
I ' 11 give you an interesting example that when we built the
Adolph's Building their laboratory was inside of that — the
whole lot. Then finally they extended very big and [so]
they were in need of office rooms, so we put the laboratory
in another building someplace else. And then we remodeled,
we readjust[ed] the area of the laboratories for some
living areas. Yeah, for offices. And it was done very
simply. And exactly to — with the same details of the rest
of the building, [by] removing the laboratory and putting
some offices without destroying anything. Yeah.
LASKEY: Well, was that idea ever explored with the idea of
single-family dwellings?
SORIANO: I did. This what I told you already, that I'd
sent in Hawaii. Eleven housing units of that and now I'm
proposing to the governments, to all kinds of people,
[that] in four days I can build — In one day I can build
four houses with six unskilled persons.
LASKEY: But once the house is built with the module, with
the module idea, it sounds like it would be easy to add on
146
or to add on rooms.
SORIANO: You could.
LASKEY: I'm thinking in terms of a young family that might
grow in number, that the house could expand or contract.
SORIANO: Yes. You could do that, but let me tell you
something. There's a danger there. You see, most people
think they can do it themselves. That's no good. In my
system, I give them open patios, pergolas, or-- Yeah, but
the open patios with two columns the size of a big room
already, with the roof, partially enclosed [so] that if
they want to add this as another room, it'll be part of the
same structure rather than leaving it to the public to call
the carpenter or somebody else, and this is what they will
do. They will put something which is totally different and
will make a mess of the original concept, you see.
This type of thing has happened in Israel, for
example, not of mine. An engineer took me once to show me
a project that they were building with blocks, cement
blocks. You know, over there that's all they did,
mostly. And then they said, "Well, we have a place here
for the clients to add their own room, another room if they
want to." And he showed me what the clients did.
Everybody's misconception, all the junk, all the nonsense,
and the whole thing was ruined. In my case, no. In my
case I really pre-establish areas like patios, pergolas.
147
and if they want to enclose that room, make another room or
two rooms, they have it — They have already established —
the roof is there, the columns are there. All they put is
the vertical walls to enclose it. I'll show you. I have
some plans of that.
LASKEY: If you were building-- When you plan today, would
you stick with aluminum or would you move on because you've
always been interested in, you know, exploring. Are there
new metals that you would build with?
SORIANO: I would move on indeed, but the trouble is the
cost. So far, the aluminum is still cheaper. It's a
little more expensive than steel; it always has been. But
in the total workings of it, it's cheaper than anything
because it can have the whole thing anodized and easy to
fabricate, easy to ship because it's lighter than steel,
and it doesn't require upkeep. With steel you have to
paint it. Look at our Golden Gate Bridge. By the time you
finish one end of painting, you start the other one, and it
never ends. But with aluminum, you don't have to do
that. You anodize, you're there; already prefinished
colors. You remember the days I showed you how beautiful
they were, those greens and blues and yellows, blacks.
LASKEY: And they stay that way.
SORIANO : Sure .
LASKEY: Well, going back again to the thirties, you did do
148
a couple of houses that were sheathed in wood, that looked
very different: your Strauss House —
SORIANO : Yes .
LASKEY: — and the Ebert House.
SORIANO: The Strauss House was a whole wood house;
completely wood. They are in a cluster. Yeah. That was
the, one of the complete wood houses I tried. And I used
the wood very elegantly, very good. Was a beautiful house,
I thought .
LASKEY: It is a beautiful house —
SORIANO: It is. Yeah.
LASKEY: — looking at the pictures.
SORIANO: But that's a lousy picture. Esther [McCoy],
really, she just doesn't realize, doesn't have any
sensitivity to at least ask me — They went with [Julius]
Shulman-- She [McCoy] got whatever photographs maybe
Shulman gave her. And this is the worst picture to show
what it is. I could show you — I don't know if I have the
Strauss House here in one of the magazines. Gosh, I have
all the publications here, in here. Aah, la, la, la.
[looks through papers]
LASKEY: I did see other pictures of it. This was just the
one that was convenient for —
SORIANO: Yeah, but it is--
LASKEY: --reproducing. But I saw it in the research —
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SORIANO: Yeah, but she didn't have it; she didn't have the
right pictures. I have some beautiful pictures of that.
LASKEY: Well, it was a beautiful house.
SORIANO: It is an exquisite one. That was in Cheviot
Hills. Did you see it? Actually?
LASKEY: Only in the —
SORIANO: — photographs.
LASKEY: Again, only so many — I tried to see some of the
houses and they're very hard to see.
SORIANO: I don't know in what condition it is now. I
don't know. Maybe some day I should make a
[unintelligible] trip there to go and see my old, to visit
every one of them. It's interesting what state they are--
It would be interesting.
LASKEY: Well, if you ever want to do that, let me know--
SORIANO: Thank you.
LASKEY: --when you're down there and I would be happy to
escort — [tape recorder off] Then came the Hallawell
Nursery [and Garden Center] .
SORIANO: The Hallawell Nursery was before that. It was
actually in '39 when we start doing the drawings, when we
did the drawings.
LASKEY: Now, was that your first--
SORIANO: It was my first prefabricated —
LASKEY: — prefabricated--
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SORIANO: --that I [dash] from one area to another area,
one city to another city. It was — You know, I'm pretty
daring, I think, in many ways.
LASKEY: Well, you —
SORIANO: Maybe I'm ornery [unintelligible],
LASKEY: [laughter] Well, how did you accomplish it? How
did you — What is prefabricated where, and sent where?
SORIANO: Okay. I — What I did was this: I made complete
drawings, made of steel. Then we got some contractors in
San Francisco to give some bids. And I told my client
[Hallawell Seed Company] that that was going to cost about
$19,000 for the whole thing, the way I estimated it
myself. Then we gave it to the contractors who all of a
sudden-- The contractors, you know, they are very peculiar
people. Unless they're familiar with the old stuff that
they did, anything that's different, they immediately raise
the price two, three times, without even studying
carefully. And, as a matter of fact, they came in with a
big price, so my client called me [and] says, "Raphael, you
know, we won't be able to afford this price they've been
quoting us. I'm sorry." And I said, "Well, let me see
what it is." So I flew down — those DC-3s at the time, I
remember. And — Or took the train; I don't even remember
what I did now. That was something. It was the —
LASKEY: Probably the train. The Lark?
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SORIANO: --train. Yeah. I used to change even to go to
Berkeley with the Santa Fe, it was. Yes, with the
Trailways system to somewheres near San Luis Obispo, then
change to the train to land in Berkeley, then take the
ferry across.
LASKEY: Well, what was the original commission? What was
it that you were going to do for Hallawell?
SORIANO: Well, Hallawell, they wanted this nursery, a
nursery building. They showed me the plot of land and they
were operating there. And it was all made of wood, stud
junk. And I said, "I'll do something very lovely for
you." Then I used also some of the lath houses that they
had, some of the wood lath. You see, the one on top- -they
stay on top of the new steel. I used the old wood lath
that they had already in order to save money. Because they
just — it acts like this, like a shape for the plants. I
used that. The main structure's made of steel, very light,
on a module again.
And so I came down and I asked the steel contractors- -
or the contractor gave me —
"Well, whoever heard of a nursery of steel? Why not
wood? "
And I said, "Well, why do you say that?" I said, "Why
not give an actual bid? You have all the drawings."
"Well, we don't know what contingencies."
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"Now, what contingencies?" I said, "Look, I have the
drawings here. They have complete details. Bid according
to that, okay?"
"Well, whoever heard — "
Again, they started this. I said, "Will you please —
Is that what you do with the skyscrapers?" I said to them,
"When you do a multiple building, a high-rise building, do
you do this?" And so finally he said, "Well, I don't
know. We'll reflgure." The figure still was expensive.
They still may want to — So that to protect themselves,
thinking that it will be contingencies because they have
never seen anything like that before. So finally I got so
mad. And my clients, they said, "Raphael, we only have a
certain budget as you told us. Beyond that, we cannot."
So I said, "Okay."
You know what I did? I talked to Fritz. "Fritz, this
is what I have and they're being-- Can we fabricate it and
we go there with two of your welders and fly over the
weekend and erect that damn thing?" "Oh, sure. Hell."
[laughter] And that's what I did. You see, I always have--
He gave me a quotation, then I flew in and I got the
plasterers, the electrical men, the plumbers to give us a
bid for that separately. Then I added the whole thing; it
was just as cheap what I told them. In fact, it was even
less, few hundred dollars less, from the $19,000 they
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want. Then we went and built it. And as a matter of fact,
I got a $500 bonus later on because they did so much
business from that. And I did those — On account of that,
I did their new Market Street store. Yes. Which was a
beautiful store with the most innovative things of selling
packets of seeds. I have marvelous color pictures of
that . Yeah .
LASKEY: Well, what part of the nursery was fabricated down
here and how did you get it — ?
SORIANO: Nothing was fabricated down here. Everything was
fabricated in Pasadena and shipped here. The whole —
LASKEY: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. That's what I meant. What
part was done in Pasadena?
SORIANO: The whole building was done in Pasadena. All the
frame, all this that you see in the nursery, except the
plasterwork, was done by the plasterers in San Francisco.
The electricians came in and did that. The rest, the
walls, the framing, everything was done in Pasadena.
LASKEY: And you just loaded it on the truck?
SORIANO: Yeah. First time. And then I came in with them,
with the welders on the same truck. And we ran the job and
helped them build this and that. Then we have--we got up
there, we made a whole frame ready to be plastered and all
that. We called the plasterers, the electricians, the
plumber to do their work. And I did very interesting
154
Innovations. Even some new lath houses of wood we have,
that a cabinet man do that. And everything was done--
[tape recorder off]
LASKEY: Well, you also were involved in the design of the
interior of the nursery itself, weren't you?
SORIANO: Yes.
LASKEY: That is the —
SORIANO: All the cabinets —
LASKEY: — all the cabinets —
SORIANO: --all the storage facilities, display cases.
Even the lighting fixtures I did. Yes. I designed even
the lighting fixtures with the- -which I used even in houses
later on. I had one hundred, two hundred, three hundred,
four hundred, five hundred, six hundred watts by doing this
[demonstrates shape], with a switch, by hand. In those
days, you know, they were primitive things. But I had
those fixtures done with sheet metal housing, my own
reflector — indirect lighting- -throughout the store. I
mean, these are all things that I always used to do.
Very — With peace and beautiful quality of the display
merchandise instead of glare. They were in all indirect
lighting as the sun would do, you see. Okay. Now, let's
see if that's — [tape recorder off] What were you saying
about the — ?
LASKEY: Well, in steel at this point, you did — the
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Hallawell was just prewar. Just prior to the war--
SORIANO : Yes .
LASKEY: --and the involvement. What would the effect of
the war have on your steel construction?
SORIANO: The war was very difficult, no matter steel or
any other material. In fact, the OPA [Office of Price
Administration] at the time--if you remember or may not
remember that OPA —
LASKEY: I do.
SORIANO: They used to specify and direct how much
material. If you had to do a little remodeling, even then,
to fix a little showcase, you had to have permission what
materials you will get and this and that. And therefore, I
did several stores, you know, little clothing stores,
jewelry shops type of thing. In fact, I did a restaurant
on Hollywood Boulevard, the Pep's Restaurant, which they
got a permission to do that with the understanding that it
was one to serve to the GIs steaks and, you know,
everything was rationed. And so I devised a very beautiful
restaurant right on Hollywood Boulevard with the chefs
cooking steaks right in front. I put the grid right there
with the chefs. And, you know, every--all the GIs,
everybody passing by, their mouths — And then inside I had
a long — it was a long store; we converted it into a
restaurant--some beautiful blue and black booths, blue
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seats of --vinyl seats, and black painted stuff. It was a
very exciting type of a — very beautiful restaurant. I have
some Kodachromes of these. And it was published. I
published some of these things in some of the magazines.
And we had [a] permit to build that with the understanding
that they were going to charge very low prices for the
GIs. And everything was prescribed: a slice of bread will
cost that much, butter was rationed, even a piece of —
square of butter, and then the steaks will cost that
much. And [for] that reason we got the permit to build
that restaurant.
LASKEY: You had to specify that before you could even get
the permit to build?
SORIANO: You didn't get that — Yes, you have to apply, and
then suggest and tell that this is what we're going to
do. Yeah. And for-- With that understanding, then you get
the permit to get all the materials; otherwise, you
couldn't do it.
And I don't know if I did — when I did the Giro's Bond
Street — the jewelry shops or whatever it is-- No, I did
that afterwards, I believe. But even then, there was a
rationed type of material. I couldn't even get
materials. But I did the Bond's — Giro's, Bond Street, from
England. I did a Beverly Hills shop which is still
standing there on Wilshire Boulevard. The one here.
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unfortunately, that was the roost beautiful gem, it's
nonexistent now. The lease expired and they didn't [renew]
it.
So, I could get materials because of my friendship
with some of these contractors, and I used the National
Cornice Works which was a sheet metal maker. Mr. Ness was
the — that doesn't matter; it's just a name of the president
of the company- -was the president of the National Cornice
Works. And he was--used to take his integrity to do the
right work. He used to come to the job to supervise how
the craftsmen were doing. That's for roofers, you know.
You put sheet metal all around [in] those days for the wood
houses . And that ' s for the wood houses we ' re talking
about, and I used to do — And I met this man. He was so
nice that he used to carry the job with integrity. And I
got very friendly with him. Every time I used to get a
sheet metal work, I used to call the National Cornice['s]
Mr. Ness and he used to give me a price. I wouldn't even
get another bid because I know it will be fair, but I know
the work will be superb. And I know it won't be, sort of,
be out of line.
So I told him, I said, "I have these shops and I need
some brass. Is there any bronze or brass? They want some--
that high-class, to look like gold." "Well, for you,
Raphael, I will do it." They were doing submarine work for
158
the navy, they rationed, put a requisition of all this
fancy materials. He said, "We have enough of this to give
you these details for the showcases." And I designed the
most elegant shop. I designed all their showcases, their
chairs, their storage facilities with the drawers with
brass pulls. Everything was done-- It was one of the most
elegant stores. I have some beautiful Kodachrome slides
which I'll show you. And, really, it was one of the most
elegant buildings. And because of that friendship, again,
with the president of a corp — sheet metal works, I could
get these materials which is impossible to get. Everybody
used to say, "How did you get that?" Of course, I won't
tell them where. [laughter] Then, because of that lovely,
elegant store- -You know the V. C. Morris Company that Frank
Lloyd Wright did on Maiden Lane [San Francisco]?
LASKEY: Oh, yes. Off Maiden--on Maiden Lane.
SORIANO: That was my store, originally. I had a contract
to do that.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: Yes. I had a contract to do the V. C. Morris
because of that. They saw this lovely gem right on Union
Square that was next to Macy's, 257 Geary [Street]. That's
where it was. And then he, the Morrises called me and
said, "Look, Mr. Soriano, we love that store you did. We'd
like [you] to do our store." All right; I did that. And I
159
had a contract. Now, all of a sudden one day I came in
with drawings to have a conference with them, and who was
on the door? Mr. Wright. And Mr. Morris and Mrs.
Morris. Mr. Wright was a friend of Mrs. Morris and he
designed a house for them to be built right beyond the
bridge overlooking a cliff on the water, but they never
built it.
LASKEY: I was going to say, was it ever built? Because it
doesn't sound familiar.
SORIANO: No, it was never built, but the drawings were
published, you see. Then, all of a sudden when I was at- -I
met him right at the door, as they were coming out to go to
lunch-- I just came in from the airport with drawings. And
immediately Frank Lloyd Wright said, "What is Soriano doing
for you?" Because he saw that I had drawings. And he [Mr.
Morris] says, "Well, he's doing our shop." "Oh. Why
didn't you call me?" And then he said, "Well, we didn't
know that you would be interested in such a small job."
"Oh, sure. I can do the job and Soriano could supervise
it." And I said, "Mr. Wright, you know, our ideas are
entirely in opposite camps. And besides, I don't supervise
anybody else's work except mine." And then they said,
"Well, come and have lunch." I said, "No, no. Go ahead
since you were going out to lunch. I'll see you. I have
another client to see anyway."
160
So I saw them afterwards. They were mortified, the
Morrises, because Mr. Wright insisted that he wants to do
the job. And then Mr. Morris said, "Well, maybe he'll
forget . " But he didn ' t . He kept sending them sketches
after sketches. So he was terribly upset and he said to
me, "I know I'll go broke if he does the job, but my wife
is insisting because they're friends." And I said,
[knocking on door] "Look, if you want to find out about
this, forget it." I said, "Look, you can give it to him if
he's that hungry for a job," I said, "but I'm not going to
be part of this nonsense."
161
TAPE NUMBER: III, SIDE TWO
JULY 20, 1985
SORIANO: I said, "If he [Wright] needs the job so badly — "
I said, "This is unethical, to begin with. Once we have a
contract with another architect, you don't go and take it
away. I wouldn't do that to — Even when I have sometimes
plans from other architects, I usually call the architects
and I ask the client to give me a written letter that he is
not engaged by this other architect." I say those things,
you see. And this is only the ethics. And so finally I
said, "Give it to him." And then I got paid for what I
did. And so that's why in the end he went broke, sure
enough .
LASKEY: Morris did?
SORIANO: Sure. Because he [Wright] made a big tour de
force, you know, like he got a-- They couldn't display all
these gifts that he [Morris] had. They were glassware and
gifts, very fancy gifts that they used to sell. It was a
real elegant store. And of course from then it [made] it
impossible to exhibit anything and it costs so much,
naturally, to do all these big round circles.
LASKEY: The ramp.
SORIANO: So anyway, so, this was it. Then I told his son
in Beverly Hills, Lloyd Wright, I said, "Lloyd, do you know
what your father did?" And I explained [it to] him. He
162
said, "Oh, god, Raphael. If that will console you, he
stole three or four churches from me." From his son.
Yeah. That's what Lloyd Wright told me. This is the type
of ethics that Frank Lloyd Wright had and most people don't
know that. He was — no scruples at all, as a human being.
LASKEY: Did he need the work that badly?
SORIANO: I don't know if he needed it or not. No matter
what, even if you were starving, if I were starving, I
would not take anybody's work. This is not ethical. It's
impossible. I mean, where is the human ethics in life?
Above a profession a human being should be ethical, should
have integrity. This is [the] first thing, you're a human
being. And that implies everything with it. Without that,
if you don't have that — Who was it-- Beethoven said that,
said something very beautiful. He said, "There is one
great mark of a human being: the kindness of the heart."
He said, "When that is lacking, there is no human being,
there's no great artist." Beethoven said that. Isn't that
interesting?
LASKEY: It is.
SORIANO: And just to show you that in — After all, life is
that. God, if you don't have enough integrity among us,
especially professional people, then what is there? Then
we are bandits; just robbers, scavengers, aren't we? And
all this publicity-- You can be the greatest man in the
163
world and you can be a scavenger like that. It's silly.
And I was really shocked. Yeah. Most people don't know
those things, you see, of him. But I happen to have a nice
little archives of experiences that most people don't
know. Yeah. This will be all in my book; I will put all
of that. Sure.
LASKEY: Well, how did Mr. Morris justify — or I guess he
really couldn't justify--
SORIANO: He couldn't justify anything except that his wife
really wanted to give it because naturally Frank Lloyd
Wright is a bigger name, she — And then he was friend of
the family, you see. They were very good friends with
Frank Lloyd Wright and apparently she wanted that. And he
designed that house which they never built. And thinking
that, one and the two, even though they appreciated my
lovely store I did which they both admired very much. And
still Frank Lloyd Wright insisted on doing it. Yeah.
LASKEY: That's amazing. Really is amazing.
SORIANO: Yeah, that's the way life is. I can tell you
stories about all the projects that architects stole from
me. It's shameful. Yeah. Anyway, I had the IBM Building
to do right here in the San Francisco area and what's-his-
name stole it. John Bowles did it. My drawings, the
drawings that I did — I have drawings, this is one of
them. And I had several of those. Maybe twenty or
164
something- -that I gave for decision after I had a contract
already. And I gave it to — I sent the drawings to Mr.
[Thomas J.] Watson [Jr.] at the time who became the
chairman of the board. He was the president of the area
here in Palo Alto. And they said, "We'll have to send the
drawings to New York for that final approval . " They wanted
me; it's already set. I had a contract with them. And I
didn't have any response for a couple weeks or so.
And then before that, 1 had an assistant- -I used to
have all kinds of assistants come to me looking for [a] job
and one was a fellow by the name of Cruzen, I believe, from
New York. His father was an architect — don't worry; don't
mark that one — and he said, "I want you — my son to have a
little influence [from] you. Can you give him some
time?" I said, "Well, I have no space; however, he can be
here for a week . " And he came over here and worked a
little bit. And then I said, "Now, you look for another
j ob because I need the space . "
And he went to find a job in John Bowles's office in
San Francisco. And he called me and said, "Mr. Soriano,
you know, they have the drawings for IBM in Mr. Bowles
office."
I said, "What?"
[He] said, "Yes."
I said, "Will you please go inside and see again. Be
165
sure they are the drawings . "
"Yes, yes. They are your drawings for IBM."
And then I called Watson and I asked — I said, "Mr.
Watson," I said, "what's happening to the drawings that you
were supposed to tell me [about] from New York?"
"Well, you know, it takes time."
I said, "Well, tell me one thing. I understand they
are in one architect's office in San Francisco, John
Bowles's specifically, John Bowles's office."
"Who told you that?"
I said, "Well, an assistant of mine told me that."
"What's his name?"
I said, "I'm not going to tell you his name, but is it
or is it not?" And he sent me-- Mr. Crooks was his--the
engineer-- Charming, even though his name sounds funny.
LASKEY: [laughter] It sounds appropriate.
SORIANO: Yeah, but it was — No.
LASKEY: No?
SORIANO: This was a marvelous engineer. He liked my
drawings. They were elated, really. At the time I was
even — I was married and we went to Lietz Company for
materials, to buy some materials. They said,
"Congratulations, Mr. Soriano."
I said, "On what?"
"You're doing the IBM job, aren't you?"
166
I said, "Yes. How did you know?"
"Well, the engineers came in. They were happy that
you're going to do their job and they are thrilled with
it."
And we were so happy, you know. We had a marvelous
dinner to celebrate that we know we had the job
definitely. And then he came to tell me — he was crying,
that engineer. Now, this is a true story. He says the
John Bowles's father-in-law apparently was a fabricator or
manufacturer of company planes, small planes, and he was
playing golf with the chairman of the board of IBM. They
concocted between the two of them that his son-in-law over
here should do the job. Therefore, I got paid and all
that, but I didn't-- I could have sued both of them; I
didn't. In those days, I just dropped it. [I was] never
so disgusted. Yeah. I lost [a] beautiful job there, too.
LASKEY: When was this?
SORIANO: Gosh, I don't even remember. I was — Maybe it
must have been twenty years ago, easily. Yeah. I did the
most beautiful plan, most exquisite concepts, really. I
designed all the cabinets for the scientist to study
properly. As you can see, this drawing over there, that's
all—
LASKEY: It's beautiful.
SORIANO: — for the —
167
LASKEY: In color.
SORIANO: The concept is so lovely. Now, these are little
cells for the creative scientists — IBM — the thinkers, you
know. And then there is several of them in here. And this
is a hallway going to their big building to do their
research, to experiment in what they thought [of] in these
cubicles.
LASKEY: Now, these are glass walls —
SORIANO: These are all glass walls in a beautiful ambience
of parks because there were acres of land all around there.
LASKEY: What is the ceiling?
SORIANO: It's all aluminum: this [indicates rhythm] snap,
crackle, pop.
LASKEY: That's just--it's the corrugated aluminum.
SORIANO: This type of thing. Acoustically beautiful, you
see, and insulated. Well, anyway, so that's one of those
things. So, what can you do? It's the tragedy of our
civilization and the lack of ethics of hiimanity. Really.
Yeah. And people keep asking, "Well, why don't you have — ?
Why is it that you're not so active? You don't know
business." I say, "I've been very busy. I did my best.
But we're dealing with gangsters. And so I don't have to
be equally as gangstery and be careless and not give a
damn, really."
LASKEY: Really?
168
SORIANO: Or keep your integrity and then take your
chances, as they say. But I'd rather be the way I am. So
what; one Job less. But I would 've loved to have done
that. Certainly. It would have been a beautiful job.
They were marvelous concepts, what I had, really.
LASKEY: Did you ever get a chance to apply them in another
building?
SORIANO: No, it's kind of hard. No. And even IBM, you
know, they could have called me again after all this. I
mean, they ['re] shameless. And then the same Watson became
the chairman of the board afterwards. Well, I didn't care
to deal with those people, you see. Their regular
engineers, their creative people liked my ideas. They were
absolutely enthralled with what I did. They loved them.
Yeah. Yeah. Such is life.
LASKEY: Very sad. We were talking about the difficulty of
getting material --
SORIANO: Oh, yes, and during the war.
LASKEY: — in the Second World War.
SORIANO: I told you already the problem. There was
nothing unless you apply for specific reasons and so on.
And then they'll give you all this, give you so much or
such and such of materials, no more, and also limited in
scope. Beyond that, they won't. But now, the tragedy is,
darling, that, you see, in those days in the war, you still
169
could do [a] few little things. But there wasn't much you
can do creatively, really, because you were restricted
completely; war effort and all the materials. And I wrote
articles, even. Designed some housing and so on. Really.
LASKEY: Well, even later when you were doing the Shulman
House and the Curtis House when we were- -gotten involved in
Korea, you — Wasn't that one of the reasons that the
Shulman House particularly wasn ' t all steel , because there
was a shortage of steel?
SORIANO: No, that wasn't the reason at all. No. The
Shulman House was already a prototype type of thing. I was
using steel and then they wanted finished ceilings of
plaster, you see. They were leery about corrugated
ceilings like that photograph there in color, you see.
Yeah.
LASKEY: I think we might just mention here that the
Shulman House was done for Julius Shulman —
SORIANO: That's correct.
LASKEY: — the architectural photographer.
SORIANO: That's correct. And, you see, in those days
there were people who were leery about corrugation,
corrugated ceilings. Therefore, to use plaster and to use
wood, whatever, then we have to use planks. They were the
simplest things. So I used steel, the whole frame, and
then wood in between so you can either cement with
170
adheslves, with epoxy resins [from] which I did welded
wood. That's — Yes, in those days I never use nails
anymore .
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: I used welded — Yes. You see, I was one of the
first who used this technology in the factories when they
used to use planes with wood. They used to have this
plywood, making planes, and they used to weld them with
epoxies. Yes, I did. I never did nails anymore because
years and years ago, when I did the first plaster houses
and wood houses in my period and we used to have little
nails, little tiny finish nails to install the plywood
panels of the wood. And then sometimes we have to even
feel those little holes, set them in. That's silly. I
said, "What is all of this nonsense!" Then when I saw this
welding, I said, "Well, now we are in line."
And so we have a plywood panel like that,
[demonstrates] you put a few little brush strokes of epoxy
like that, and then you put it against the wall which has a
preliminary rough plywood base underneath the frame. You
put it in there already from floor to ceiling, four-by-
eight panels, and all you do--like that, just as much as
I'm telling you now. You press the button with the hand
like that; pssssssss, it's sealed already. It's there.
You can't remove it. Pssss, pssss, psssss, psssss.
171
Already done. And so this is the way it was built. I did
ceilings with that, with wood ceilings. I have several
houses I did wood and the walls of the same and I never
used anymore nails or anything like that. Now, you see, I
was constantly tapping new things.
LASKEY: Right.
SORIANO: Constantly. Yeah. So the Shulman House- -coming
back to the question- -was done because in those days, you
see, I was still — they wanted to, the clients wanted that
kind of a thing. They wanted flat roofs with plaster and
wood and whatever. And so that was the most economical,
the best way. And then even after that I realized the
whole thing is nonsense to do even that. Then I went--I
did my Curtis House and which is the first actually
prefabricated house.
LASKEY: Oh, really?
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: Want to describe that in some detail?
SORIANO: Yeah. The first- -the Curtis House was the one
because then I did, [for] the first time, brought in the
cabinets when all the frame was there. That's when
everybody used to ask — say, "What is that? A house?"
(That was in Bel Air, you know.)
LASKEY: Yes.
SORIANO: And I said, "Yes." There are five bathrooms that
172
were completely finished, enclosed, and the walls we put
in — no cabinets in there. Then we brought in the cabinets.
LASKEY: Now, were the walls prefabricated at another site,
too?
SORIANO: Yes, yes, yes. They were prefabricated and--
Except we applied, at the finish, cork, insulating cork, on
the outside. That was also a first. Yeah. And I did the
same thing in Youngstown, Ohio, for one of the houses I
built there. Cork, even in the snow. And my client was
terribly leery at the time. "Cork? My god," you know,
"whoever heard of that?" And then I called the Armstrong
Cork Company at the time [which said], "No, we don't
recommend it." They — That's the cork I'm talking about,
the insulating cork they used to use in the
refrigerators. You know that rough--with holey — cork?
Which is dark?
LASKEY: Oh, yeah. Right. Right.
SORIANO: That's the one I use outside.
LASKEY: On the exterior?
SORIANO : Yes .
LASKEY: In Ohio?
SORIANO: In Ohio as well as in Bel Air, the Stone Canyon
House. Now, the owner — That's 1950 already. This is
thirty- five years ago. And the owner said, "My god. This
is awful!"
173
I said, "No."
"Well, god — " And he calls up.
The cork company says, "We don't recommend It."
"Why?"
"Because we don't use it for that."
I asked him the same thing. I said, "Well, Just
because you don't use it is not a reason why you don't
recommend it." They don't know, you see. They learn to do
something, that's all they think it's done for.
LASKEY: Right.
SORIANO: Beyond that, they have no other imagination.
LASKEY: Right.
SORIANO: And I said, "I want to use it." Not only that,
but this came in one inch, to save money, I have it cut in
half an inch because we already had complete insulation of
panel, three-quarters-of-an-inch panel anyway of plywood.
And I put this on the plywood; cement it in, which was —
LASKEY: So it was the cork on the plywood?
SORIANO: On the plywood, yes, which makes a perfect wall
and perfect insulation. Yeah.
LASKEY: And this is the exterior wall?
SORIANO: The exterior wall, yeah.
LASKEY: And that's filled in between the metal —
SORIANO: The metal was —
LASKEY: — metal columns.
174
SORIANO: --in ten foot — Ten- foot column modules, yes.
And then all this was anchored completely, top and bottom.
LASKEY: I've been curious. You used a lot of steel
decking for your roofs and ceilings. With a flat roof, how
did you prevent it from being very hot in the summer?
SORIANO: We have insulation on top. We use fiberglass
insulation, an inch and a half, two inches sometimes,
depending on the climate, and that's all. And then you put
roofing on top of that.
LASKEY: Roofing on the top of that.
SORIANO: Oh, sure.
LASKEY: Okay.
SORIANO: In the Adolph's Building, you will see, we have a
six-inch cell of metal, perforated metal--not corrugated,
but perforated steel mesh — with cells like that with
fiberglass insulation and then the roofing on top with
insulation, too. Yeah. These are all new elements, new
technologies which were used for buildings. They used some
of this stuff — things in big buildings, high rise. And I
use some of these things from the industry, from housing.
Yeah. And —
LASKEY: Well, just getting back to the Curtis House that
we were talking about.
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: How do you convince the client to do something
175
that was really very experimental?
SORIANO: Well, the fact is I, myself, am a very convinced
person many times. Sometimes I may err a little bit, but
my errors are not so big, really. And the fact is, I'm
assured, first, when I do something and I use something, I
investigate it a great deal and I check, question,
research, and I take tremendous amount of effort to find
out the pros and cons and the possibilities. And then if
I'm convinced that it works, that there are more positive
things than negatives, then I use it. And especially if it
serves well, why not? Like the cork is an example. And my
client was leery. He called the cork company again and he
says, "No, we don't recommend it." Then somebody told
him, says, "Oh, god, " you know, "cork? With the rain?
What are you going to do?" And I said to my client [about]
all these things that he's gathering from all the people
and I said, "Look, do you know why cork floats?" He didn't
know. And I said, "It floats because it has no capillary
action." That means it doesn't absorb water. Otherwise it
will sink. I said, "That's why it floats." I said, "Now,
will that convince you that it's a wonderful material for
insulation and the water will not penetrate?" Still he
wasn't convinced. Somebody told him to get a waterproof er
to give a — put a waterproofing stuff. I said, "You don't
need to." And I said, "Well, I'll tell you what. Let's
176
get your waterproofer. Let's have examples of it. We'll
give him one sheet of that, " and then I had one sheet
naturally, the way it came, and another one, I said, "we
can use, if you really worry, use carnauba wax, " which is
palm tree wax "over it," which doesn't affect anything. It
keeps it nicely. I use carnauba wax even with plywood
panels. It's the only one that doesn't change the color.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: Yes. And it protects it, seals it. So here we
are, three panels. One, the waterproofer expert, which the
client got. And I had two panels; one with carnauba wax,
one without anything. Okay, the waterproofer came in —
that's a true story, now — and I put them right on the
floor. He came in all happy that he did something, and it
looked like the dickens, too, like varnished, gaudy, you
know. And I didn't like the stuff but I didn't say
anything. I said, "All right," and I put the other two
there and I took the hose; put the hose over the whole
three panels. The panel [that's] supposed to be waterproof
absorbed the water like that because he destroyed the
capillary action of the material and the resins that they
were impregnated with. He just made it spongy rather than
to preventing —
LASKEY: That's interesting.
SORIANO: And then mine were just beautifully like the
177
ducks, the goose's back; the water will fall off. And I
said, "All right?" And then the man who's supposedly the
expert waterproofer, his eyes were — "I'll be darned," he
said. And I said, "Well, will that satisfy you?" I said to
my client. I said, "There you are." And finally I did it,
see? That was it.
LiASKEY: You did the whole exterior in cork?
SORIANO : Yes .
LASKEY: And did it hold up?
SORIANO: Sure. It held up. And I don't know what state
it is in now, but he needs really to take off the thing.
And I think it was okay. I saw it about — when was it? —
seven, eight years ago. It was all right still. Yeah.
And he changed hands, you know. President [John F.]
Kennedy lived in there with Marilyn Monroe.
LASKEY: In the Youngstown house?
SORIANO: In the Bel Air — the Bel Air house.
LASKEY: Oh, the Bel Air house.
SORIANO: That was their little retreat. And they had a--
security things, and they had a tremendous amount of
electrical things in there. Yeah. And the whole thing was
electrified — that house, anyway, because I used radiant
heating with nickel and chrome, nick-chrome wires for
electricity so you can tune your house, the temperature,
like a musical instrument, with different elements, with
178
switches .
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: Not in — Yes. That was done because with
electricity you can do that, but [with] hot water you
cannot because the hot water runs through the pipes. And
that was just with the elements like that. Wires are not
bigger than that. Nickel and chrome, made of nickel and
chrome wire, insulated with glass. Yeah.
LASKEY: And you used that through the whole flooring
system?
SORIANO: And he gave-- Yeah, it became this thick.
Yeah. And then it was all over fiberglass mats and I put a
sandwich of concrete, three inches, [then] fiberglass with
this, plus another three inches. Very resilient floor.
Yeah.
LASKEY: You used radiant heating in many of your houses.
SORIANO: Most of my houses were done that way. In the
later houses, yeah. Yeah, because I didn't think, first,
there was any healthful thing; just awful. Complicated:
sheet metal, ducts and grills all over the place. Radiant
heating is just like you warm as toast. Yeah, because it's
a clean sort of a field of heat rather than circulating hot
air. That's what radiant heating is.
LASKEY: It also keeps your spaces clear on the interior.
SORIANO: It is beautiful, it's clean, it's lovely.
179
There's nothing — the grills don't get dark, dirty, and
there's no circulation of that dirty air with registers.
Have you ever seen the registers [unintelligible]? They're
always black. And then it's the worst thing that we found
out today even, that air-conditioning in hospitals is the
most — where the bacteria really loves to settle and they
circulate the bacteria all over the hospital, diseases.
Yeah. Contrary to all these so-called things that we claim
that they are beautiful. Yeah. Yes, ma'am.
LASKEY: But with the Curtis House, too, which as you said
was your first house in which you —
SORIANO: The first real prefabricated house, where the
cabinets were brought in made, all beautifully made with
walnut woods and so on. I designed all the furniture- -and
everything in there.
LASKEY: Did you have a hard time convincing the Curtises
that they should buy a house that didn't have —
SORIANO: No.
LASKEY: — study rooms, you know, pre-built room rooms? It
must have been a —
SORIANO: No, I didn't—
LASKEY: — strange concept.
SORIANO: No, this was — The Curtises were not the original
owners .
LASKEY: Oh, they weren't?
180
SORIANO: No. I have reasons for it which, I won't say it
now, but this will come in my book. And the Curtises were
the ones who bought it afterwards, which were absolutely
beautiful. Madame, Mrs. Curtis, from New York, she wrote
the most beautiful letter. She loved me. The original
owners were, I would say, semi-gangsters.
LASKEY: Oh, really?
SORIANO: They were in Drew Pearson's column. They were--
called them "Truman's five-percenters." It was one of the
Truman five-percenter. You know what that was? Five
percent was under the table. Yeah. He mentioned several
of them, and he was one of them. Yep. It's a long story
which I don't care to go over.
LASKEY: Right. Okay.
SORIANO: All right? Then the Case Study house came in at
that same time, you see.
LASKEY: The guest house was built —
SORIANO: The Case Study house- -
LASKEY: Oh, yes. I'm sorry, because I know that the
Curtis House has the little guest house —
SORIANO: Yes.
LASKEY: — attached to it.
SORIANO: Which is the same thing as — For guests as —
completely as a lovely unit. It has bathroom, kitchenette,
Pullman kitchenette, and everything. Just a complete
181
little unit that a mother-in-law or anybody could live
there beautifully. Yeah.
LASKEY: But, to go back — I'm jumping back a little bit —
SORIANO: Okay.
LASKEY: — before we get into the Case Study house because
they do go together. When you built the Gato House which
was your first steel -structure house, how had you made the
decision to move into housing? Now, you've done buildings
in steel but you hadn ' t done houses .
SORIANO: Well, I — Housing, I did a lot of houses
indeed. And I realized why not in houses? Houses, it will
be very easy to industrialize housing. I said, "This is
our era." We make cars with steel, metals. And then I
thought the real advancements had been made in
metallurgy. No other material has made as many
advancements we have as in metallurgy. Yeah. And yet we
don't tap that one. And therefore, I said, "Well, I'm
going to go into this," you see. I've been doing — I was
the first one [who] did with the steel houses, really, in
this area. And then also the first one [who] did aluminum
houses, the way they should be, intelligently done,
modular ly planned, industrially produced; assembled, rather
than all these piddlings with welds and all that. No. No,
no, no, no, no. My system is really [a] beautiful system.
LASKEY: It's so simple.
182
SORIANO: It is. Simple and elegant at the same time. And
simplicity doesn't bring monotony. As some people always,
without thinking, they say, "Well, won't they be all
monotonous, the same thing?" And I said, "Look at all the
junk you people produce which are all the same thing except
they are [with] a little different shutters. Mine are
different, even though using the same elements. I can do
somersaults with my houses and make every house different,
but using the same elements. But you have to dedicate and
apply yourself with intelligence and sensitivity. And I
have it, damn it." [laughs]
LASKEY: Well, in the Gato House, you used the lattice
steel .
SORIANO: Yes. That was the steel with-- Lattice steel at
the time was, Fritz Ruppell had developed, you see. And I
said, "We'll use that," which was okay. It was fine. It
worked very beautifully. It was a nice house.
LASKEY: Isn't-- Aren't steel houses more difficult to--
what's the word I want--the tolerances, that they have to
be more exact- -the building has to be more exact than a
wood- frame house?
SORIANO: Oh, certainly. With wood frame, if you make a
mistake or if you — you can always chop one inch off, cut
it, take the saw — If it is cut too much, you put a molding
on it. Yeah. You can do that with wood, but with steel.
183
metals, once you order these from the factory precisely
done, they have to be exact and your details have to be
absolutely exact. And that's all right. There's nothing
wrong with that.
We can make them. And it's a question for you to
apply yourself again and check in the shop drawings before
the fabricator makes them, to see to it that he tells you--
gives you back the shop drawings — if he understands
correctly what your intent is. Then you send them back
with corrections and instructions again until they are
absolutely right, they understand right, then you say,
"Okay; proceed." It requires dedication, time and
effort. Without that, nothing happens.
The tragedy of our profession and my colleagues, they
don't give a damn. They make a little abstract drawing,
they let the builder make his own details. You look at
some drawings of many architects you will see how [much
they] lack in details. You should see mine. I have tons
of details. [tape recorder off]
LASKEY: Do you think that other architects didn't pursue
the idea of building steel houses because of the detail
demanded in the —
SORIANO: Will you ask that again, please? Ask that
again. [tape recorder off]
IjASKEY: Do you think that other architects didn't pursue
184
the Idea of building steel houses because of the detail and
the attention to detail and the work involved in steel
construction?
SORIANO: Well, possibly. I don't know. Maybe that's it
and maybe that their imagination was not, then, in the
direction of that because the line of least resistance is
to simply build over the same old conventional two-by-
four. It's simple, no headaches. Possibly that's it, and
then easy. And everybody knows the language. You give it
to a builder who builds it for you, you make less details,
you see. You let the builder improvise on the job. But
naturally, I have precision, as I told you, with all the
detailing. Maybe they weren't in-- However, some of my
assistants after, when they worked with me, then they did
that. Yeah. Those are the other ones who pursued that.
But the tragedy is that most people are corrupted in their
taste because of what they see. They see all this woodsy,
shakey, shacky, tacky with spit and cardboard- -the same old
thing we ' ve been doing now for centuries and centuries .
And this is what people think houses should look like or
should be. And consequently, we get the brunt of it. And
now we have another mess, another disease in this post-
modernism, all this garbage, all the beatniks, so to speak,
like [Michael] Graves and Philip [C] Johnson and the rest
of them. And contaminating the brains of the people and
185
architecture at the same time.
LASKEY: Well, Philip Johnson has sort of run the gamut--
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: — from International Style to postmodernism.
SORIANO: Yeah, because he was not really-- You know, he
was with [Ludwig] Mies van der Rohe--was an assistant to
Mies van der Rohe. He was not even an architect. At one
time, you know, he was a fascist. Did you know that? He
wanted to be a Nazi? Did you know that?
LASKEY: Philip Johnson? No, I didn't know that.
SORIANO: My god, this is all written up in Time magazine.
LASKEY: No, I didn't know that.
SORIANO: I'll tell you what it was written up in Time
magazine. Philip Johnson was an admirer of Hitler. He
went to Germany before he was an architect and he wanted
to — came to America, to New York to organize an SS fascist
type of thing like in Germany. Yes. This was in Time
magazine!
LASKEY: I didn't— [laughter]
SORIANO: Yeah. You search, you'll see.
LASKEY: I'm just surprised.
SORIANO: Yeah, yeah. Well, everybody — So was I. And
then after that, he changed his mind. He realized it was a
dangerous state of affairs —
LASKEY: Thank goodness.
186
SORIANO: --and he didn't succeed. And so then he met Mies
van der Rohe through the daughter of — was a student. He
was teaching at Yale [University] or whatever it — When he
started architecture then he was teaching — You know, he
speaks quite well, and being a rich boy —
LASKEY: Yes.
SORIANO: — you know, he got all these plums right away
with the Seagram Building and so on. He knew the student,
the daughter of one of the Seagram people; therefore,
that's how he got it and then he got Mies van der Rohe to
do the job. Therefore, he became his assistant. You see,
that's the whole thing. And from there on, you know, the
publicity and money, you can always do anything you want.
And I remember Philip Johnson, he invited me to see his
["glass box"] house that he did in New Canaan [Connecticut],
LASKEY: Oh, the New Canaan house.
SORIANO: Yes. And I said, "It's beautiful, Philip." He
says, "Hell, you do for five thousand dollars what I do for
three hundred thousand." [laughter] Yeah. He admired me,
actually, and we were very good friends in many ways. And
I thought he was a very nice man. I didn't even know about
all this nonsense and all his weaknesses. And I said,
"Wonderful, Philip." And in fact when he went to have his
gold medal, he called me and he said, "Are you coming to
the convention?" I said, "Unfortunately, no, but
187
congratulations, Philip." He said, "We are two of us left,
you know . " He told me that . And then I wrote to him
afterwards and I said, "Only one of us left —
LASKEY: Us is left.
SORIANO: — Philip," after he did cabinet pediment on top
of a high rise.
LASKEY: The —
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: — American Telephone and Telegraph Building.
SORIANO: And this is the thing. And this is the big
problem we have now, unfortunately.
LASKEY: Well, this is sort of an aside, but I'm curious:
How does the New Canaan house work as a living space?
SORIANO: It was very lovely, I think. For him, it was
beautiful; nothing wrong with that. Even anybody could
adopt itself beautifully. So much acreage.
LASKEY: The house itself --
SORIANO: The house is very beautiful. It's lovely. It's
nothing wrong with that.
LASKEY: It's livable?
SORIANO: Sure it is. Why shouldn't it be? To be among a
lovely — beautifully done, among trees and all that? Why
shouldn't it be livable?
LASKEY: Oh, the siting is beautiful and it looks
beautiful. But I just wondered how it worked to be in it.
188
SORIANO: Well, why not? I mean, in other words, you're
talking about nostalgia again.
LASKEY: I'm not— [laughter] Well, it looks like living
in a fishbowl. I mean, it looks like a little Jewel box in
this setting, but I wondered —
SORIANO: This is great.
LASKEY: — how it worked for human dimensions, to actually
be there to live in it?
SORIANO: Well, for everybody, no, because not everybody
has the wealth of Philip Johnson or the acreage. You don't
put one house like that in so many acres surrounded with
trees of your own and pieces of sculpture and all that.
LASKEY: Well--
SORIANO: It's just like a park. If you're talking about
for individuals, you could do it beautifully with
privacy. Certainly. Why not? I've done it. And with all
the glass even in there, one small lot, depending how you
orientate the whole thing. Sure. And it's all a matter
of — Oh, this [the tape] is already finished; do you want
to continue?
LASKEY: Well, we don't want to get too sidetracked on
Philip Johnson.
SORIANO: Well, no, okay. That's okay.
LASKEY: But, talking about your own assistants-- You were
talking about Johnson being an assistant to Mies-- Your
189
assistants, Craig Ellwood and Pierre Koenig, in particular,
would go on and do steel houses probably as a result of
having been in your office.
SORIANO: That's right.
LASKEY: How did they come to be in your office?
SORIANO: Well, Pierre Koenig worked for me as an assistant
like others — I had a whole flock of them — and Craig Ellwood
was a very strange combination. He was a salesman of
furniture. Most people don't know that.
LASKEY: I didn't know that.
SORIANO: Yeah. And he came to sell some furniture in the
apartment house I did. See, before that he used to do wood
houses like Frank Lloyd Wright type of things. Then he saw
my apartment and then immediately his eyes opened and then
of course-- Most of the things are not done by Craig
Ellwood. He has the name. You see, most of the young
people in his office who were influenced by my stuff were
working there and then immediately saw the quality and all
that. From there on it became — And then he was married to
an actress, which boost him up, too, you see? And that's
how it is. But he, as himself — He had good taste to have
a good office and have good publicity, yes. But I'm sure
as a man, as a creative person, I don't know.
LASKEY: They always, almost always, in the architecture
books refer to him as having been influenced by Mies in
190
doing Mleslan boxes.
SORIANO: Nonsense. Nonsense. That's, yeah, because he
said that and didn't mean it. So? Big deal. Mies never
did houses like that. I did — his houses that he was,
houses that he was doing with I-beams.
LASKEY: Well, in the book The Second Generation, Cesar
Pelli in the introduction talks about the difference
between — what? — between your work or your kind of work and
Mies. And he talks — he calls--he says that the steel work
is more relaxed and slender than yours.
SORIANO: Whose?
LASKEY: He's talking about Southern California
architecture in general. But as far as the steel is
concerned --and I think he mentioned--he's talking about you
and Ell wood and--
SORIANO: In other words —
LASKEY: --and the Case Study houses.
SORIANO: — which is more relaxed? What is--?
LASKEY: The Southern California, yours, that it's slender--
SORIANO: Much better than what Mies does.
LASKEY: — the steel work is slenderer and, whereas, he
called the Miesian [style] heavy and — I can't remember
what the other word was, but —
SORIANO: Pelli 's ignorant. He doesn't know what he's
talking about. Pelli, again, is another one of those
191
parvenus, as far as I'm concerned. In fact, you should see
the buildings he has done. I criticize them. He Is full
of theatrics, Hollywood. He's a Hollywood architect. I
know Esther likes him because she had him do the preface on
the book. And all the things he said were absolutely
nonsense. I know some of the things that he has written.
I believe Pelll Is not, to me, a serious, serious
thinker.
Now, of course he's In Yale, dean of Yale, of
course. As a matter of fact, he did some buildings In San
Bernardino; he did the City Hall there. And they asked me
what I thought of It. I said It was a horrible piece of
work. [laughter] Slanting all the things, arbitrarily
chopping corners-- For what? This Is not the way of
architecture. This is the postmodernism, and Pelll is one
of those, you see. And I know even Esther wrote a book- -I
saw it in England, but I didn't know he had a book--on
Craig Ellwood. Did you know that?
LASKEY: No.
SORIANO: I saw it in-- One of my admirers, in England, he
showed me the book. He says, "Can you imagine that?" He
says, "They didn't write about you; they wrote about Craig
Ellwood, " and Esther did a book. I said, "Who wrote
this?" Esther. Yeah. I didn't know that. I've never
seen it, except there in London. Yeah. Now, that's news
192
you don ' t know .
LASKEY: That's interesting.
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: Yeah, that's very interesting.
SORIANO: This is history. You're getting it right
precisely. I'm sorry, I don't mean to talk degeneratingly
of my colleagues or my friends. I don't care who they are;
to me it doesn't make any difference. But the truth is
truth. And Pelli, to me, doesn't represent anything. He
doesn't even understand what architecture is, as far as I'm
concerned. He's playing with all kinds of fantasies,
cubism and decorations. Even some of this so-called high-
rise things they're doing now, all this ^ la mode like
Johnson, they're playing with all this gimmickry, really.
So—?
LASKEY: But would you agree with his assessment of the
steel work that was done by you and your colleagues in
Southern California?
SORIANO: No, no. Totally incorrect. I don't think he
understood Mies van der Rohe to begin with. No. As a
matter of fact, one of my assistants, Joe [Joseph Y.]
Fujikawa, during the war-- You don't know him. That's a
good name because he's a lovely person. Joe Fujikawa,
yeah. He was the right hand of Mies van der Rohe.
LASKEY: Really?
193
SORIANO: Yes. And now he's getting the offices--he' s now
on his own- -when Mies died. I sent him to Mies. He worked
for me. Joe worked for me during the war. He was
Japanese, you know; they had to go inland. And instead of
that I said, "Go to Chicago to Mies."
LASKEY: You mean, that's when you sent him? After —
SORIANO: That's right.
LASKEY: When they were going —
SORIANO: During the war.
LASKEY: --to incarcerate —
SORIANO: Absolutely.
LASKEY: — all the Japanese?
SORIANO: Absolutely. That's when — And then he worked for
Mies. He became the right-hand man of Mies. He was a very
lovely, talented, dedicated young man.
LASKEY: That's a great story.
SORIANO: And he called me — yes--he called me his mentor
and he admired me. He sent me some letters. In fact, the
Graham Foundation showed me a whole lot of jobs that Joe
was doing.
LASKEY: Well, that's wonderful.
SORIANO: Yes. Yeah, that's another thing most people
don't know. You see, even Esther doesn't know. Yep.
LASKEY: Did you ever meet Mies?
SORIANO: Oh sure. He sent me some beautiful letters about
194
me, too, when they were doing the station KQED [San
Francisco] here. And he says, "Get Soriano. He's the best
you can have there." And you know what happened? The
engineers wanted me. Everybody was for me. Then all of a
sudden there was Fleish- -Fleishman or [Mortimer]
Fleishhacker was giving $90,000 subsidy, then, at the time,
taxwise, you know, to the station. And he kept saying,
"Well, I want to use my architect." And that was-- He had
his own architects. Yeah.
And so at the time James Day was the director of the
station, the KQED station, television, educational
station. And then they had a big, big fight with the--
Yeah. They had a big fight with the membership there, with
the engineers which wanted me. And I already-- Just like
the IBM [Building] . They were so pleased that I was going
to do the Jobs. La trag^dle humalne [the human tragedy].
So then James Day wrote an article and said, "Well, between
Soriano and $90,000, I have to get the $90,000." So that's
how they ended up. And then they got this architect,
supposedly, by Fleishhacker, who comes right on the button
with cost, supposedly. And this architect got some
Johannson from the East to collaborate with him, and the
prices were three or four times of what they thought they
would cost, and then they didn't build the building, you
195
see, and they lost Soriano. That's not a nice story. Isn't
It? Nobody knows that.
196
TAPE NUMBER: IV, SIDE ONE
JULY 20, 1985
SORIANO: Well, I'll tell you another thing about the
museum. You know the Barnsdall House [Hollyhock House]?
LASKEY: Oh, the Frank Lloyd Wright —
SORIANO : Yes .
LASKEY: The Hollyhock House?
SORIANO: Which is already an art center, isn't it?
Something there?
LASKEY: Right.
SORIANO: All right. They wanted me, they wanted Mr.
Rigler — [to whom] you spoke on the phone?
LASKEY: From the Adolph's Building?
SORIANO: Yes. To give the money to put in a, some kind of
a sign in Hollywood so to identify that there is the art
center there. But nobody knows. They have a little stupid
kiosk made of wood- -you know? — in there, but nobody
knows. And there is a car wash with a big sign next door.
LASKEY: Right.
SORIANO: And so my friend and client, Mr. [Leo G.] Rigler
called me, and I went to see the premises and so on, and I
made a very interesting model that I was going to put--
entirely on metal. [It] was going to be a beautiful thing,
almost like Frank Lloyd Wright. Let's see what I have--
Here, this one.
197
LASKEY: Oh.
SORIANO: And I made a lovely little sketch. I made the
mistake of doing that: Barnsdall Art Center, you see?
Was —
LASKEY: That's charming.
SORIANO: — going to be like that. Very beautiful. Was
going to be about sixty or eighty feet high right on the
premises there where the grounds are.
LASKEY: At the bottom of the hill?
SORIANO: Yes. And possibly I was going to have a ramp to
go from here to the premises nicely for the people to go.
And so I met with the [Los Angeles County] Board of
Supervisors with Mr. Rigler, the county board of
supervisors, with two ladies, and [a] Japanese, and [a]
Mexican; you know, this democracy of ours. And an
architect was there. And so I did this myself, without a
contractor, because Mr. Rigler was going to donate the
money and I thought there would be a job. So they insulted
both of us with silly remarks. Mr. Rigler was insulted and
so was I. So one of the ladies there, the supervisor,
says, "Mr. Soriano, could you lower this six inches
down?" That triangle, do you see there: B-A-C.
LASKEY: Right.
SORIANO: And I said, "Why do you ask me that? Why will I
lower that? What is the purpose?" "Well I think it'd look
198
better." Now, can you imagine that? A supervisor, a
person like that not to have sensitivity to her concept is
so — To ask me to do this kind of thing. And then another
supervisor, [a] woman, said, "It looks like the
Corniforium" — or something that is right —
LASKEY: The Triforium.
SORIANO: " — the Triforium there." I said, "What is
that?" I never seen-- Through the window where we were
meeting you could see the thing down below. I said, "Well,
how can you compare that mess of concrete with this?" I
said, "This is--" And then I went and saw the thing and
said, "How ridiculous, this is what I'm — " And then the
young man who was the head of the supervisors said, "Well,
we have to sort of have a meeting and then we'll let you
know." Mr. Rigler was absolutely mad and wouldn't give
them the money. Still he didn't. Yeah.
And now they're coming back to him for money, but they
don't want me, they want to have their architects. [But
Rigler said] "No, if you want my money, you have to have
Soriano." And then they told Mr. Rigler, he says, "Well,
Soriano's not a sculptor." Well, who the hell said I was a
sculptor. Is that what they wanted? A piece of sculpture.
LASKEY: They want a sign.
SORIANO: Can you imagine the stupidity of those people? I
mean, this is what I am dealing with. This is what we are
199
dealing with: these politicians who know nothing,
ignorants. Miserable heads of individuals to dictate
terms. What is, what shouldn't be. Yeah. This is what we
are working with. That's why people will ask [and] say,
"Why aren't you so busy? Why don't you do this?" This is
why. Yeah. I could have easily played with them so-- "Oh
sure," you know. "Oh sure, you want six inches, I'll lower
it six inches down." But what does that prove? Nothing.
Really. Anyway, so that's that.
Now what other question [do] you have?
LASKEY: Well, we'll go back to 1950, which —
SORIANO: The Case Study house.
LASKEY: The Case Study. The whole Case Study program.
SORIANO: Well, the Case Study house, as far as I'm
concerned, was-- It's all right. It did some good to
advertise possibilities. Everybody else does Case Study
houses .
LASKEY: Well, you might just want to begin and say even
what the Case Study program was.
SORIANO: The Case Study program was-- I don't know
actually the real scope of it, but the way I understood it,
was Just to make money for [California] Arts and
Architecture .
LASKEY: Which was a magazine.
SORIANO: Yeah, a magazine, and also to publicize the
200
magazine by using names who could do this so-called modern
things, were ^ la mode.
LASKEY: You don't think it was to promote modern
architecture?
SORIANO: [laughing] I'm not so convinced that John
Entenza was so Intelligent about that. [laughter] I don't
think he knew as much as you think. And he was an
opportunist. You know, his father was publisher or
whatever, I forgot. He had money, bought that Arts and
Architecture. It was a very conservative type of
magazine. Have you known that? Used to be an old magazine
publishing Spanish houses and all that.
LASKEY: Yeah. I think It was called California Arts and
Architecture .
SORIANO: Yeah, whatever It was. Yeah, yeah.
LASKEY: It was a regional —
SORIANO: This Is all right.
LASKEY: --magazine of architecture.
SORIANO: Then he became S la mode now. Having with all
this — What do you call that? Illuminarles that were
already so many in California, Los Angeles. Was a nice
occasion. In that respect, I give credit to John to top
this. That was good. But you know what happened with it,
you know? With it, we have to specify, I have to sell my
signature with everything that's been used in the house:
201
That Soriano specifies cups for the Case Study House No. 2
or whatever; Soriano specifies this John, this bidet, these
light fixtures; signed. And they charged the company who
was selling this, giving them free.
LASKEY: I was going to ask you about that —
SORIANO: Yeah. This is what they did.
LASKEY: — as we discussed it. Because when I was looking
at your — As it was actually published in California Arts
and Architecture, which I think was December of 1950, it
specified, or it gives always a list of who did the doors--
SORIANO: Always. "Soriano specifies that."
LASKEY: — who did everything. I was going to ask you how
the program actually worked. Were these things then
contributed to build the house on the stipulation that when
it was published they--
Soriano: They would have credit.
LASKEY: — would get credit.
SORIANO: And they give it for nothing. And that means
then they sold [the] house and they had a promoter who had
a piece of property which made money. You see, they all
made money except me. I got the fee. Regular fee. But
then I [was] used. With my signature, they sell, they sold
all these trades: "Soriano specifies that, Soriano
specifies that, Soriano specifies that." At least they
could have given me part of that, no? Oh, no. I forgot
202
the name who was at the head of that promotion
department. I forgot his name. Oh, yes, they wanted [a]
lot of things and I refused. Lot of things they wanted
to — for me to specify because anybody who had a piece of
Junk they want to put it there. Used to bring it — I said,
"No, Soriano doesn't specify this, I'm sorry." Yeah, I was
[a] very difficult man because I refused to — I said, "I'm
not gonna put my name to something I don't believe. I'm
sorry." Yeah. They wanted me to just-- Because they get
money and free stuff. And they get advertising and charge
five hundred dollars or whatever for the advertising in
their magazine of their product.
LASKEY: Well, John Entenza, who owned the magazine, did
this as a — supposedly — to promote modern architecture —
SORIANO: Nonsense; it was for John Entenza.
LASKEY: — in Southern California. Now, did Arts and
Architecture buy the land?
SORIANO: No.
LASKEY: Who — How were the houses built? That's what I'm
curious about .
SORIANO: This is what they — They found a client who had a
lawn, a piece of lot [1080 Ravoli Drive]. They went around
searching and, like in my case, was Olds, Mr. [Alan] Olds
[who] owned that piece of property. In the [Pacific]
Palisades. Alan Olds, I believe it was. He [was] a very
203
charming man. And then he gave the land so I can build the
Case Study house. When they sold the house, they divide
the profits, whatever they did, I don't know. Yeah. They
found a client with land and then they had people with the
material company donate all that free, you see, then they
made a deal out of that and make [It a] money-making
proposition. That's all It was.
LASKEY: So the only fee they actually had then, would be
the architect's fee?
SORIANO: That's It. Yes. Yes. You know, most people
don't know-- They think [It] Is altruism, all these
beautiful big things. As I told you, even John Entenza--
how sensitive he was — when he became the [president of the]
Graham Foundation-- Because of that, already--naturally,
money and all this publicity — became the chief of Graham
Foundation. When I apply for, to get a grant to write
books, he says, "Oh, Soriano's too old." And yet in the
same year, he gave to Philip [C] Johnson and, I think,
Peter Blake or something, to do a grant to study the
theater in Germany. If you please, which had nothing to do
with it. This is true. This is facts I'm telling you.
And this is how much he was promoting architecture. It was
a big farce, I'll tell you.
Sorry, but these are the realities, darling. You
know, I don't spare words and I know, because I'm right.
204
When I tell you something, I know, I can stand--be right.
You go through history you'll find that I'm right, what I
tell you. Yeah. Most people don't know those things. You
see, they all take it blindly or "John Enten — " Because a
group like that was retained and all that, they play all
this "John Entenza did this, John Entenza did that, Esther
McCoy did that," and so on. Well, this is fine. They have
their own contributions, yes, for doing it. But, there are
all the other things behind the stuff which was not exactly
that altruism or knowledge. It was business! Money.
Money-maker .
As I told you, I refused to specify things they used
to bring me. They want me to do it. I said, "No. I don't
believe in such a utensils. I don't believe in such
fixtures." "Well, we have to--" I said, "No, you have to,
but I don't." Not nothing goes in my name that I--with
this. And they took it that way. Yeah, I used to have
real interesting battles with them.
LASKEY: Well, how were the architects selected? How were
you selected to do what you did?
SORIANO: Well, I had a name already, they could not ignore
me.
LASKEY: Well, they ignored Harwell Hamilton Harris.
SORIANO: Well, because Hamilton Harris, apparently, he
maybe didn't qualify because he was doing ^ la Frank Lloyd
205
Wright, you see, that wasn't supposedly the real
industrially [inspired] houses of the days. Yeah. And
they used many others which I don't think they were doing- -
I mean, they were all right, but nothing so startling.
[Richard J.] Neutra was the only one that I thought-- And
the other assistant —
LASKEY: There was the Eames House that —
SORIANO: And the other.
LASKEY: You don't like that?
SORIANO: Well, the Eames — I knew Charlie [Charles Eames]
very well as a matter of fact. Charlie was doing regular
house[s] just like Craig Ellwood did at one time. Yeah.
And so all of a sudden he did that. I remember we used to,
I used to go with a girl--the daughter of — God! An
actress, a very beautiful actress, I adore her. Frances
was a sculptress, the daughter of this actress. It [her
name] will come to me. And Charlie was going with her,
too. And he designed a house for her entirely of redwood;
you should have seen the plans. She showed it to me. It
was awful. Yeah, the time when [at] the beginning he was
learning, I suppose.
LASKEY: Of course.
SORIANO: It's okay. But then he did his house, which to
me-- It's all right, but it's not what I call the real
prefabricated thing, you know. It's full of all decorated
206
Mondrianish things, you know. To me that's not the
direction because not everybody will have Mondrian houses
and all these fancy things. And the thing is, Charlie was
associated with his wife [Ray Eames] who loved all these
little trinkets, little dolls, and little playthings. You
know, they were that kind of a playful individuals you see,
which is to me not what architecture is.
LASKEY: Well, I don't think Eames really — I don't think
of him as being an architect first and foremost.
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: First and foremost he was an industrial designer,
and I think in terms of his furniture and his —
SORIANO: Was associated with [Eero] Saarinen, certainly.
Yeah. And — But then they made a big to-do. As a matter
of fact, I'll tell you another thing since we're talking
about Entenza, at the time they were absolutely chummy.
Entenza and Charlie were just like that: friends. And
there was not a word that came from Entenza 's mouth that
wasn't uttered by Charlie. Everything was Charlie's
decision and sayings. I know that. Then after, when they
got a big fight, when they did that house for Entenza, you
remember?
LASKEY: Well, I was going to ask you, I've never seen--
Saarinen and Eames did the house for Entenza.
SORIANO: Which was the worst house on earth.
207
LASKEY: Which apparently is next to or right by the Eames
House, but I've never seen it and I don't know that I've
ever seen a picture of it other than —
SORIANO: It's a friend of mine, a friend of mine ovms it.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: Really. How does it — What's it like?
SORIANO: It's awful. It was the worst house I think I've
seen.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: Yeah, nothing really startling. It was in a
lovely area, but the architecture to me was [a] big zero.
Yeah.
LASKEY: Because the Eames House has so much publicity and
it's considered one of the classics in Los Angeles, but you
never hear about the Eames-Saarinen House. And considering
it was Saarinen, and I'm, was, sort of surprised that it
just fell away.
SORIANO: Because it's not a good house really.
LASKEY: That's interesting.
SORIANO: And then don't forget he [Entenza] had a fight
with Saarinen, with Eam — Charlie--when they just fall apart
completely. They were enemies afterwards. I don't know--
LASKEY: Permanently?
SORIANO: Yes. I don't know whatever happened to them.
208
Yeah. Unless they made it up afterwards and I didn't
know. I don't know that. But I knew after they were
chummy - chununy . Everything else that Eames said, Entenza
used to ruminate. Really. This is what I'm telling you
that this fact. And then after that, I don't know what
happened. They fall apart and —
LASKEY: Yeah.
SORIANO: Those things happen. However, still, Charlie's
house is not bad, but the direction is not that way. You
see, because it's full of gimmickry and decorations and--
Yeah, publicity sometimes can make or break, and depending
who makes the publicity, who writes.
LASKEY: Well, were you given any stipulations when — ?
SORIANO: The house?
LASKEY: When you were assigned a Case Study house, or when
you accepted the commission to do it, I mean, did they say
it had to be — ? Were you given the size, or it had to be
three bedrooms, or it had to do anything?
SORIANO: I believe it was a three-bedroom house type of a
thing, yeah. Then, from then on, I was free. But they
knew I wouldn't submit to any dictation of the styles or
anything like that, which I don't believe anyway. But I
worked and I helped them really do it beautifully. It was
one of the nicest houses I did. It was beautifully
printed. But then I think somebody bought it now and
209
changed a little bit. They did some changes. They always
do, unfortunately.
LASKEY: How do you feel about that?
SORIANO: Well, it breaks my heart when they do that.
Instead of calling me, you know? But then-- I don't
know. It's just — Instead of having the finesse to tell
me — I don't even know this book.
LASKEY: You don't know this book?
SORIANO: No.
LASKEY: It's The Case Study Houses 1945-1962.
SORIANO: May I see that?
LASKEY: Yeah, I was just looking for your house here. Let
me find it for you.
SORIANO: Who wrote the preface? [Cesar] Pelli again?
LASKEY: No, Esther.
SORIANO: She published that? Esther published the —
LASKEY: Yeah, it was originally published in 1962. And
then it was just republished again in 1970.
SORIANO: I don't know, I really don't know.
LASKEY: Really? You should. You should have this.
SORIANO: Well, there are a lot of books that came out with
my work; I don't even know anymore. You don't know how
many books I have and magazines I have. But I kept,
fortunately, most of the magazines that I know. Yeah, I
thought so. Yeah, that's a lovely house you see.
210
beautiful.
LASKEY: Oh, it is.
SORIANO: Yeah, I have some marvelous elevations of this
which I don't think they published. This is wrong, you
see. I have a better elevation; this was done without even
finishing it. Silly. This is a photo that [Julius]
Shulman did. But this photograph was published by
another. [James H.] Reed, I believe, photographed a great
deal of this which had a beautiful, beautiful details and —
Yeah, yeah, all of this. Yeah; not this. No, I had a
beautiful elevation of that. This is silly. Really, I'm
sad. This is what hurts me. They don't have enough
sensitivity. This is just simply without building it. And
I have marvelous construction details of this rather than
just this elevation.
LASKEY: Well, I think she was just trying to show the
pavilion.
SORIANO: I know, but she — These were done by Reed, most
of these photographs. This one wasn't by Shulman. And he
did beautiful photography. Yep. Sorry. Well, anyway, so
it doesn't make any difference, really.
LASKEY: How long were you associated with Shulman?
SORIANO: Well, Shulman — He did many — You know, Shulman
started out photography when I started my first house. He
came in with a Brownie one day, said, "Oh Soriano, look!
211
I'm Julius Shulman, a photographer, and I'm Just starting
out, too; can I photograph your house?" I said, "Sure."
He had a Brownie.
LASKEY: That's incredible.
SORIANO: Yes. That's exactly it.
LASKEY: [laughter] That's really amazing.
SORIANO: Yeah. And then we became friends and not one
time he wanted me to have the- -to build his house. He
said, "Well, I know, most of the architects do houses, and
I like to invite every architect to do one room." I said,
"Julius, that will never be, because nobody will do that.
That ' s not going to work any more than to have ten chefs do
one meal . "
LASKEY: Right.
SORIANO: And [he] said, "Well, I think I'll — " I said,
"Well, try it," I said, "but I doubt it very much." And do
you know? He came to me and says, "Soriano, I think I'll
select you to do the — " And I said, "Fine, thank you." And
I did.
LASKEY: And he was obviously very satisfied since- -
SORIANO: He was!
LASKEY: — he's still living in the house and hasn't
changed it.
SORIANO: He called me last week to tell me that, "Raphael,
why don't I see you? Why don't I hear from you?" And I
212
said, "Well, I've been pretty busy." And his new wife, you
know — not Emma, but his wife he married very recently, when
his wife died.
LASKEY; No, I didn't know.
SORIANO: 01ga--is suffering from leukemia. He told me
that.
LASKEY: Shulman is?
SORIANO: Not Shulman; his wife.
LASKEY: His wife.
SORIANO: Yeah, don't say anything because it's not-- Maybe
he wants to repeat himself, but that's what he told me.
And he was very dejected, and of course she was, too. And
I felt sad and sorry. And he says, "Well, we're not going
to go anywheres and I've been telling her, where else would
you go with this beautiful house?" And then Mrs. Jones,
[A.] Quincy Jones's wife went there and says, "Look at the
beautiful house that Soriano did. Look at the atmosphere
that Soriano did." And so he was telling me that, Julius
[was] .
LASKEY: Well, Mrs. Jones used to live in one of your
apartments at one time, didn't she?
SORIANO: I know, I know. Yeah. Yep. That's life.
Things change. Things occur.
LASKEY: Well, did any —
SORIANO: Sometimes we know the truth, sometimes we don't.
213
LASKEY: Did your — ? Did the publication of the Case Study
house help you any? Did you directly — ?
SORIANO: Possibly. I think—
LASKEY: — get a benefit from it?
SORIANO: I really don't know. Because I've been published
in so many magazines and books so I don't think the-- Just
because Arts and Architecture published it, because at the
time I published time in the Architectural Forum, the
[Architectural] Record, House and Garden, the German
magazines, the Italian magazines. In fact, the Italian
magazines did a beautiful — Let me see if I can find really
an interesting — I believe I have a nice little color photo
[from] the Italian magazine the way they published it.
Yeah, years ago before the Case Study house. Yeah, I will
stop this. [tape recorder off]
Well, as I showed you already, I've been published in
so many magazines I don't know. I'm sure every little
publicity helps, yes. Doesn't hurt. But then people
forget. You know, I've had, you see, magazines here like
that — All my work has been published in these. I have
tons of these: every one of the magazines. I kept them
fortunately. And many universities, you know, the people
steal the magazines. [Then] they don't have it, they come
to me [and ask], "Do you have this?" And I have them, you
see. And, poor [Richard J.] Neutra, when he had his fire.
214
you know, he lost a lot of his stuff. Most of the books
and magazines he had.
LASKEY: Oh, really? I never thought about that, but of
course .
SORIANO: Oh, yes. Yeah. So what is another question you
may have? Forgive me if I put my leg up, because I have to
relax it a little bit because of my condition. It's too
bad I cannot show you that Italian magazine. It was really
beautifully published: the Case Study house in color.
LASKEY: Well, I'm noticing that 1950, which seems to have
been quite a year for you —
SORIANO: It was a very nice year, yes.
LASKEY: — was also the year that you attended the Alcoa
Aluminum Conference.
SORIANO : Yes , yes .
LASKEY: Which was to send you off in another direction.
SORIANO: Yes, to promote-- Well, that didn't actually
convince me into [using] aluminum because I already was
thinking of aluminum even then before that.
LASKEY: Oh, you were?
SORIANO: I'm sure that's why Alcoa invited me, because I
was talking to Fritz Close, I believe, which was the
chairman of the board of Alcoa. As a matter of fact, when
he was retired, they invited [a] few of his friends to make
a little film, a little audio-visual statement. I was the
215
only architect invited to say something. Yeah, with all
the big moguls, supposedly. I have a little
[unintelligible], yeah. And I had a very interesting
aluminum dish they presented for the conference. That was
in Boca Raton, Florida. Alcoa created [the] conference and
they had a certain man there by the name of Rowse--Roos,
Rowse--who is quite in the government, you know, is a big
builder business. I told him at the time, I said, "Why
don't you promote something." Some of the things that I
did of course-- Now, he has his own concept of ideas which
is really conservative, but then that's what happens, you
see. People are scared to death of something really
starkly light and frank. They don't like that. They like
sugar-coated little statements of architecture. Yeah.
LASKEY: I think they like it — I guess you're right. I
think they're afraid of something that isn't solid.
SORIANO: Well, mine is very solid actually, as-- Can be
made more solid than wood.
LASKEY: [laughter] Well, but, you know.
SORIANO: Sure. Couldn't be more solid than wood. I mean,
than steel, than aluminum. We fly airplanes with aluminum.
Imagine we don't fly them with wood. They won't last three
minutes in all this fantastic stresses that will take the
plane going at such a speed and such altitudes. All the
stuff we're doing for space, [of] what are they made?
216
Aluminum and other alloyed sophisticated aluminum. Now
they have a new material which is an alloy of graphite and
aluminum which is stronger and lighter. Graphite, the
regular lead pencil that you write on. Isn't it
marvelous? But all this come from a scientific thinking,
never from the architects. [laughter] Yeah.
LASKEY: And then they don't want to use it.
SORIANO: Of course not. Most architects don't even know
that thing exists. Yeah.
LASKEY: But then you, after-- Before you got into
aluminum, you still did the Colby Apartments which-- And
the, your —
SORIANO: That was the same year, same year.
LASKEY: Probably your shining example of steel, which
would be the Adolph's Building which came later.
SORIANO: Well, then the Adolph's was already aluminum and
steel; I used same principles of prefabrication: assembly
method, no bearing walls — which I developed with the Curtis
House. I used it in the Adolph's Building. Yeah. In '54,
just four year later, I got the commission to do the
Adolph's Building, and then it was built later. Yeah, I
moved here [Northern California] , barely I moved here, and
then I got this commission. Everybody says, "Oh, Soriano,
you just — Why move from Los Angeles? All your clientele--"
I said, "Well, if they want me, they can reach me."
217
LASKEY: Why did you move from Los Angeles?
SORIANO: Well, it was an interesting story. I got
married — foolishly--to a girl with three children, and she
was having problems with her husband and so on. Then I
said, "My god, why did I have to marry this?" To get into
this mess when I used to have all these baby starlets,
stars from Hollywood. And to get to this position — and
stresses and anxiety. Why? Well, I did.
So, but anyway, so I said to my ex- wife, I said, "I
was planning to move to San Francisco area, particularly in
the-- Marin County's very beautiful." Because I already
was familiar doing work in San Francisco area. And I said,
"Come and let's see if you like it." [She] said, "Oh,
yes, " and immediately I bought a house in Tiburon. It
wasn't even developed yet. That was not even a town.
LASKEY: This was in 1953.
SORIANO: Nineteen fifty-three. And I was in Mill Valley
for about a year there. We had a house until — Then I
found this, was not even developed. In fact, the whole
area there was completely-- Black Angus cows were grazing
all over those hills. That's all there were. It was
nothing. None of these buildings, these restaurants-- All
these three restaurants were not here. Nothing. And so
then that ' s how I moved here . And then I bought some
property that I was going to develop and do some beautiful
218
things. I had a lovely parcel for multiple units
overlooking this bay right below the acres of land I have,
which my ex-wife took. Yeah, it was a disaster. Really.
Well--
LASKEY: But you opted to stay up here.
SORIANO: It was lovely and I was — And I moved to the
studio. This was used — This [was] my drafting room. I
had eight boys working over here; I have another room
there, full of documents.
LASKEY: Even in 1953 when you moved up here from Los
Angeles your studio was still going then at full blast.
SORIANO: I had, I still had another —
LASKEY: You still had —
SORIANO: Yeah, on Leeden Way, I think it was, yeah.
LASKEY: You had a staff of eight?
SORIANO: Over here. Not over there. Over there I had a
secretary I kept —
LASKEY: But I mean just — You had an office that had — You
had eight people, at least eight people —
SORIANO: Eight people, yes.
LASKEY: — working for you.
SORIANO: Maximum was eight people. Six to eight people
used to work. Because I didn't want to handle any more
than that. It becomes a mess.
LASKEY: And you were doing mostly small --or individual
219
houses —
SORIANO: Well, yes.
LASKEY: — or were you moving Into other —
SORIANO: Individual houses, I was doing a lot of things
and I — And also I organized Project Architects. You know,
you may have heard that: Project Architects? I was the
one who organized that. Yeah, with Maynard Lyndon. I told
Maynard Lyndon at the time- -we were very good friends --and
Arthur [B.] Gallion, dean of USC [University of Southern
California] , and we were discussing one [partnership] . I
said, "Well, let's get together since we are good
friends. We relate in our thinking. And we can go for big
jobs." In fact, we even made a bid for the airport, Los
Angeles Airport.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO : Yes .
LASKEY: This was an amalgamation of individual —
SORIANO: Of individual.
LASKEY: — small, small —
SORIANO: Small, yes.
LASKEY: — office architects to —
SORIANO: Yes, it was Maynard Lyndon, Arthur Gallion,
Soriano. And then all of a sudden Gallion and Maynard
Lyndon said, "Well, let's get [Frederick] Emmons and [A.
Quincy] Jones." Jones and Emmons, at the time. And
220
[Douglas] Honnold and [John] Rex, I believe, also. They
wanted to Incorporate it because they were-- They could
have this more clout and all that. And then we had a big
brochure we put out and we said-- The statement we made is
that only the principals will participate; not the
draftsman, no — The principals would design this. For the
first time we would give a service designed by top-notch
principals of the firm rather than — In reality, that
[design by assistants] was the case, really.
LASKEY: [laughter] Fraud, fraud.
SORIANO: Then I dissolved it. I, personally. Then I
said, "Forget it." Because I used to come prepared to
discuss everything; I knew everything. The others used to
come-- Jones used to come with his assistant; he knew
nothing. And they were playing politics, this dirty little
politics. Jones was a real clever, shrewdy one. Really.
So this is the way it was, and at one time I just got so
mad — The whole thing's so silly. And he, the assistants
were doing the work and he was supposed to really do-- The
principals [were to] do the work. And Jones, you know,
used to drink a lot. So it was dissolved. But we did a
hospital together. You see, San Pedro Community Hospital
[1961].
LASKEY: The San Pedro Community Hospital?
SORIANO: Yes. And all of this was my own doing. Most
221
people may not know that. And I designed the graphics, and
I have the sheets, the pages I can show you, the
letterheads and all that. I had the office here and the
office In Wllshlre Boulevard, Maynard Lyndon's place.
Yeah. You see, I was trying to see whether we can expand
to greater things. Then when I designed the hundred-story
office 1 did it myself. No more associations. Yeah.
LASKEY: Was it too many individual personalities?
SORIANO: It is that way, and it never works. Like too
many cooks doing one —
LASKEY: Right, right.
SORIANO: How can that work? They're all prima donnas.
Yeah. Especially Jones used to bug me. He used to come —
Whatever I said [Jones would reply] "No." And then he used
to ruminate what I said as his own. Really. And I said to
myself. What is this? Yeah. And I used to come with a
prepared beautiful drawings and then I had them beautifully
done, as I do.
LASKEY: Yes, yes.
SORIANO: Documented like that.
LASKEY: Beautiful.
SORIANO: And then also after we had a meeting then he used
to come later on and say, "Ha! Now this is what we have to
do." Exactly what I did. And I used to say to myself, "Am
I really seeing things?" That's the true story. And it
222
wasn't his, you see. And his assistants used to work on
this. And he didn't know what was going on and I knew.
And so did Maynard Lyndon. And Gallion. The others
didn't. Yeah. I started with those three, those two,
others but not with the rest of them. But, just after-- We
did one job; that was it.
LASKEY: Well, you did do the Giro's jobs with—
SORIANO: Giro's, Bond Street, we did. This was, again,
was brought to me by [Serge] Ghermayeff.
LASKEY: Yes. And you did collaborate with him on that,
didn't you?
SORIANO : No !
LASKEY: No?
SORIANO: I did it all myself.
LASKEY: Oh, really.
SORIANO: Oh yeah, because he sent me the most stupid
drawing and the clients were also very unhappy about it.
Yeah, he used to send me all kinds of sort of art deco type
of things, so finally I said, "No, no, no, no, this cannot
be." And he was, you know. Serge was a prima donna. Used
to [put on] big hot airs. You know, he was a tall fellow
and used to look upon-- Well, you know, this kind of
thing. Because he was associated with [Eric] Mendelssohn
at one time. Apparently he got pompous.
LASKEY: Oh, really?
223
SORIANO: Yeah. Got big. I think it was [Mendelssohn],
I'm not so sure now. I believe it was so. But, then, the
clients themselves sort of didn't like what Serge was doing
so then I remained in the project. And I did a most
beautiful job for them. I designed everything. I was
happy because I didn't — I couldn't stand all this art deco
type of things he was making — Which he still does, the
same thing I guess; his son does the same thing.
LASKEY: Well, art deco is back in.
SORIANO: Yeah, of course. Well, even then they used to
have all this painting type of things and gimmickry, you
know. I did something extremely logical, simple,
beautiful. It was a gem of a store, really.
LASKEY: You did two stores?
SORIANO: I did two. The one in Beverly Hills--still
there. But you know, [an] interesting thing happened at
the one in Beverly Hills made me mad again. Ai-yi-yi-yi-
yi. It's really-- It's so, so--what's that?--mind
boggling?
LASKEY: Mind boggling.
SORIANO: Yeah. For example, I had those beautiful leather
walls. You see. Look at this, how leather-- Those walls,
they're like blocks.
LASKEY: Right.
SORIANO: They're leather stuffed with cotton in it. It
224
gives softness to it and then is beautiful. Of course,
again, the marvelous — That's real leather, genuine
leather .
LASKEY: Oh.
SORIANO: Look how beautiful they were. Now, I did the
same thing in Beverly Hills. The same thing. You'll find
out. All of a sudden, just when the art deco began, just a
few years ago, apparently the company changed hands
already — they sold the whole operations — and all of a
sudden they had some decorator come in and, if you please,
they made one [leather block] black, one white:
checkerboard .
LASKEY: Oh, no.
SORIANO: Yeah. You will see the walls —
LASKEY: Did they remove the leather? Or they painted
them?
SORIANO: No, they painted them I think.
LASKEY: Oh.
SORIANO: That's what they did. And I said to myself — And
then the rest of it--
LASKEY: Oh, that's too bad.
SORIANO: — remained beautifully. The rest-- You will see
the fixtures where the windows are. They were all done
brass, I told you. They were done for both stores.
Yeah. I'll show you in color — They're really beautiful.
225
Here. [searches through photographs] I'm talking about--
See, this is the [San Pedro] hospital —
LASKEY: Great use of color.
SORIANO: — we did together. See that? These are all my
own Kodachrome. Look how lovely they are.
LASKEY: They really are.
SORIANO: And I want to publish them in color, damn it!
LASKEY: Well —
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: They stand a much better chance-- They're doing a
lot more color- -
SORIANO: Today, yeah.
LASKEY: — color publishing.
SORIANO: Look, look how beautiful these are. Now look,
that's the beautiful colors-- Look. This is the San
Francisco [Giro's store].
LASKEY: Oh, that's San Francisco.
SORIANO: And this is the one from the back entrance, if
you please, of the Beverly Hills [store] . You enter there
like that, see? Look at the walls, and look at this
beautiful — These are all brass.
LASKEY: It's so elegant.
SORIANO: And there's the back entrance, yeah. That's the
entrance to San Francisco. But look how lovely this is.
LASKEY: Now this is —
226
SORIANO: These are all the tables and showcases I
designed.
LASKEY: But is this in San Francisco or Beverly Hills?
SORIANO: It's San Francisco.
LASKEY: That's San Francisco. And this one is--
SORIANO: And the same thing like this is in Beverly Hills,
also.
LASKEY: Yeah, I thought so.
SORIANO: Except that the, these things were, one [section]
black and white in Beverly Hills now.
LASKEY: Yeah.
SORIANO: But the one in San Francisco doesn't exist
because the lease expired and Macy's has, took it over.
And then I don't know what the hell happened to it.
LASKEY: It's beautiful.
SORIANO: Isn't that lovely?
LASKEY: Yes.
SORIANO: Well, that's it.
LASKEY: Yeah, the colors are wonderful.
SORIANO: Yeah. It breaks my heart, but then what can I
do? [looks through photographs] That's the one in Beverly
Hills, you see? Round like that, with [the] same
coloring. Ah, well--
LASKEY: The Colby Apartments —
SORIANO: Yeah. * [Unfortunately, the owner, a woman from
Taiwan, had it demolished in spite of hundreds of letters
227
and telegrams sent to the mayor. Ignorant politicians
without culture! We missed it by one vote at the Los
Angeles City Council. Two black council members, I
understand, were bribed by this woman from Taiwan! This
was in spite of the cultural heritage.]
LASKEY: Did they--? What kind of color did you use?
SORIANO: The Colby Apartments?
LASKEY: Yeah.
SORIANO: Well, the outside was, we had black. The steel
was all painted Jet black and with some orange color in
some — in between the members, identifying certain members
which were less structural than the others. And then I
used the fiberglass, corrugated fiberglass, for the
balconies. I used yellow on the north side because it was
very beautiful, and I used blue, a beautiful aquamarine
blue on the southwest side. Because the glare of the sun
with the yellow was a little too intense so the blue was
better. So we study all these things, you see, in that
area. A lot of them arbitrarily say, "Let's put the yellow
here and blue here." This we studied. The same thing with
the Hallawell Seed Company. I did-- People say, "What is
that blue glass? How did you decide?" Well, we tried
* Mr. Soriano added the following bracketed material during his
review of the transcript.
228
blue, we tried clear, we tried greenish, we tried grey, and
we found the blue glass that I used was the only one that
did not affect the color of the plants within the nursery.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: Yeah. It's interesting.
LASKEY: That's very interesting, since it was outside.
SORIANO: Yeah, the other ones cast a hue and a shade over
the plants and made the plants not real. And the blue sort
of let the plants be exactly the way they were in color.
And I said, "We select the blue." And then the red
protective painting of the nursery — "Why red?" "Well," I
said, "I paint it with red lead "--which is a lovely color,
Chinese red- -"the columns, steel, to protect them." And I
remain that way. So one was logical; one also equally as
logical. The two were lovely together. And then for the
building itself I used sort of a light grey. Sort of
light, just almost a neutral grey tone or white. Yeah,
that's all: the three [colors]. And I remember Mrs.
[Esther] McNabb, the owner's wife, she sat down-- She was
very conservative-- You know, when I did this it was a very
startling thing. People used to go and take photographs
and movies and — Every weekend that was used for that. And
she used to say — She wrote to me a letter which I still
have. That's the one that they say to my other client--
[It] says, "When we lost an argument with Soriano, we'll
229
gain, we won." And she said, "Dear boy, don't you think
it's a bit obvious: red, white, and blue?" I said, "Come
on, Esther." I said, "This is not red, white, and blue;
it's grey, [red] and blue." And I say, "Why don't you let
us finish that and if you don't like any of the colors I'll
change them for you, okay?" That's the way it was. And
then when everybody used to talk about this, they used to
come there on weekends to take movies. And from then on
then business [went] way up and they would send me a
letter: "At first we thought we will double our
operation. It has far surpassed our expectations." That
was when we got the $500 bonus. You see, from then on they
realize how right I was, yeah. Well, it takes tenacity and
education.
LASKEY: Well, it also takes a certain amount of confidence
in yourself.
SORIANO: Exactly. And that I have. [laughter]
230
TAPE NUMBER: IV, SIDE TWO
JULY 20, 1985
LASKEY: The Interesting thing — another of the interesting
things about the Colby Apartments besides the use of color- -
was their design: the whole matter of little gardens and
balconies and patios. How did you design it?
SORIANO: I always loved gardens, loved patios. And since
none have no bearing walls, this is the way it was
designed, too, you see? From then on I have no bearing
walls in any of my concepts. From 1950 on. Yeah. No
bearing walls. So the structure, the structural elements,
were self-tenable and the walls were Just simply either
cabinets or free. That's what I did. From then on I've
been doing that. And so it works out beautifully for me,
and this is what I designed even with my aluminum
prefabricated houses. I can put in one day four houses
with six unskilled men because they're all prefabricated,
pre-studded, precisely done: all you do is bolt them. Any
moron could find the holes; if he doesn't, he's worse than
a moron than I thought.
LASKEY: [laughing] Were the Colby Apartments
prefabricated then?
SORIANO: Yes.
LASKEY: And assembled?
SORIANO: The same way, no bearing walls. Yeah. And
231
except that we did a lot of work on the cabinets. Most of
it were not done in the factory; they were done locally.
Because it was cheaper that way, at that time. I think it
was [the] Korean War then? Was something we didn't have —
Nineteen fifty- two.
LASKEY: Nineteen fifty-two. Could be the Korean War.
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: Or the aftermath.
SORIANO: Yeah, whatever. Anyway, so, whatever. So we
had, I had a marvelous connection with the U.S. Plywood
[Company] . And I knew the president and he used to let us
go to the warehouse all the time to select the panels as to
grain and color. We were receiving lots of plywood ash
from Japan. And I remember I went with my assistant Dan
Dworsky, you know, in Los Angeles?
LASKEY: Oh, the architect?
SORIANO: He used to work for me. Yes. He was my
assistant. In fact, he worked on my Colby Apartments. We
installed all the Plexiglas. He worked locally there.
LASKEY: Daniel Dworsky?
SORIANO: Yes. I used to make-- That's right, you didn't
know that, did you?
LASKEY: No, I didn't know that. [laughter]
SORIANO: I gave you so many names. Oh, I can give you so
many, many names. Yeah. Dan Dworsky. I gave you Joe
232
[Joseph Y.] Fujikawa. Dan Dworsky worked in the apartment--
In fact, I put him to work [on] the divisions of the
patios, the balconies: all this Plexiglas — corrugated? We
used to install it — I devised a way with a little wire,
with a little piece of plywood hanging down. We'd
improvise those things on the job. And Dan worked on
them. Dan is a lovely boy, I liked him. Is a good friend
of mine, and his lovely wife, too- -charming. And so this
is what we did. And I — In fact, we went to U.S. Plywood
with a couple of assistants and selected--I don't know how
many- -hundreds of panels from several boxes. Hundreds of
boxes they had there of U.S. Plywood that came from Japan,
this thick, with maybe twenty or forty panels in it. And I
used to pick them up. They were four [feet] by eights.
Yeah. And I used to go and pick them up and put them on
the wall and select them per color, for grain, to match
them. And so I used to do that. And I matched them as top
one, top two, top three, top four, east wall, living
room. Things like that. I matched every room different
woods, and I used to mark them precisely because I want the
cabinetmakers to install them exactly as I put them up as
per grain, as per color. And so as not to make mistake to
leave it to them to do that, I used to do that.
LASKEY: To mark them.
SORIANO: Yes. And I'll give you an interesting story in a
233
minute. And this wood also-- This wood was welded wood
with infrared light. No nails again, you see; I used that
completely. Yeah.
And so [an] interesting thing happened there. I asked
the union there to send me some real cabinetmakers. And at
the time, you know, they were working time and material.
It was a difficulty to get labor. They were very
rambunctious, the laborers, the unions. And they have to
take it on time and material. And I asked the union [for]
the cabinetmakers I want. "Yeah, sure we have the best."
Okay. They came in and I said, "Look, I took the trouble
to mark them. Top one, top two, top three, top four, from
east to west on such and such a wall. It's all marked on
the wall, too. All you have to do is just put them
together properly and be sure that they're exactly done.
All I want you to-- Installation, you know, with the
plane. Just make that lovely one-eighth-of-an-inch V, you
put them together, they are beautiful, and then put the
epoxy resin and then bang! Done." And that's the way it
was done, it's very simple. But I said, "I want you to be
careful. Please." And they said, "Oh, sure, sure, I
understand it very good." You know, right. What happened
was this, a very interesting thing. I come-- I used to go
every day or sometimes twice a day to supervise, to see how
it's going on. And so I looked at the installation of one
234
wall — I said, "There's a mistake there." I have very
sharp eyes; I may not appear so, but I can sense-- "Oh, I
did exactly what you said." I said, "Well, it looks like
there's a mistake there, I'm sorry. Do you mind removing
it?" He said, "Oh, come on." I said, "Yes, what's the
difference? You're getting paid by the hour." They were
getting paid like that. And I said, "I'll see to it that
the material-- I'll pay or the owner will pay for it,
okay? You have nothing to lose . " The contractor loses
nothing since he is on time and material. You pay him by
the hour, that's all. And he said, "No! That's the [most]
foolish thing I've ever heard." I said, "Never mind with
that; I think there's a mistake there, sir." Reluctantly
he removed [it], and sure enough, he had made a mistake.
Instead of one- two, he had one- four. Yeah. And I said,
"You see? After I ask you like a gentleman, like a friend,
I explain to you and I really ask you with great kindness
to please be careful in installation, didn't I?" And he
takes the hammer and threw it on the floor. We had already
carpets on the floor already. Said, "I quit this goddamn
job." I said, "Okay, fine. Excellent," I say, "because I
don't want a person like that here working anyway." And so
I wrote a letter immediately to the contractor:
noncompliance with the performance of the job, and I have
the attorney write him a letter to follow it up--
235
termination of contract with this union builder. And he
came begging and pleading, and the union official came
in. And I said, "Nope. I asked for cabinetmakers; I don't
want butchers." I said, "I explained, I took the time.
Look what I have on the panels, they're all marked
precisely. And look what he did." "Well, maybe we can
send others." I said, "No, forget it. The owners are
very, very pissed off with this, " I said to them [laughing]
like that, which is true.
LASKEY: Of course.
SORIANO: And I said, "They don't want to lose time and all
that with this kind of incompetency." And I said, "We're
not-- They said they don't want to finish, they want to
move in right now." But all of a sudden I remember I used
to have Italian cabinetmakers that did work for me in shop
stores that I did. Johnny Basso was his name. And I said,
"Johnny, do you have any Italian cabinetmakers, Italian
real cabinet — " "Oh, sure enough, but they no union
though." And I said, "That's all right." Now we had — The
whole job was a union job, you see. And we had to have the
plumbing — Eveirything was done so we didn't care. And I
said, "Fine." So we put some sheets on walls because of
complete big glass walls and we worked at night. And I had
those two Italian cabinetmakers from Italy-- They hardly
spoke English. And they were the most beautiful people on
236
earth. They used to finish the cabinet — they did all the
work — and they used to finish a cabinet and they used to
call me, "Signore Soriano, guarda! Che bello!" Said, "Mr.
Soriano, look how beautiful." Their own work! Putting
their hands over it. Can you imagine that kind of
craftsmanship?
LASKEY: No.
SORIANO: And I was touched. I loved these guys. I said
to them, I said. Look at this, and look at the debasing
things that have come with these so-called unions. These
stupid Jackasses. Just because they're union they think
they — Instead of really having the finesse, the pride of
their work. And we finished the job that way. And they
did the most marvelous work with his Italian nonunion guys.
LASKEY: Now, this is all the cabinetwork in the Colby
Apartments?
SORIANO: All the cabinet and all the paneling in that
Colby Apartments. Yes. This is what you do, you see.
Pains, pains, struggles, fights, and then the union men
came in there; they want to picket the job and this and
that. I said, "Go right ahead." Said, "I'm sorry, the
owner doesn't want to pay for it, so what are you going to
do?" [laughs] "Go ahead." And so they couldn't do
anything. You see.
And, you see, the cabinetry that we had in there. Let
237
me see if I have a picture here. Oh, yes. You see, this
is the apartment. This is — Now, let me see if I have a
cabinet — Unfortunately, I don't think I have it here. I
had some beautiful pictures of the cabinetwork. Maybe- -
Wait a minute, wait a minute, maybe I have it. No, that's
the Adolph's Building; you should see the inside of it.
Yeah, all this is the Adolph's Building. See, I did all
the furniture and everything.
LASKEY: That's beautiful.
SORIANO: Every, everything. You should see how beautiful
that is really.
LASKEY: You generally ended up doing your own
subcontracting —
SORIANO: Every — I did — Most of them.
LASKEY: — didn't you, on your buildings?
SORIANO: If I hadn't done that, there wouldn't have been
an office building. I mean, there wouldn't have been a
single house of steel, ever. Because I took the trouble —
You see, this is the apartment house.
LASKEY: That is beautiful.
SORIANO: See?
LASKEY: Yes.
SORIANO: Now, let me see if I have these cabinets.
LASKEY: It's a shame they've let it go to waste.
SORIANO: Well, this is the tragedy--what happens you
238
know. People have no finesse.
Unfortunately, I have them [the cabinet photos]
someplace else, but not here.
LASKEY: I'm sorry.
SORIANO: So do I.
LASKEY: I'd like to see that.
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: Because none of the pictures that I saw were of
the interior.
SORIANO: No —
LASKEY: They were always of the courts and the exterior.
SORIANO: I know, I know, I know. I have some cabinetry I
may show you after you finish this. Anyway. So this is
what happened. I did the dressers and everything else.
Hundreds of drawers beautifully done with [the] same
beautiful ash by these cabinetmen. And I loved the story--
It's a true story. They used to rub their hands on their
cabinet they'd finished and say, "Signore Soriano, guarda
che bello!" Says, "Look, Mr. Soriano, how beautiful."
They were proud of what they accomplished. Putting their
hands over-- [There would] be such a finesse. As if they
did something- -which is true, they did a beautiful job.
Yeah.
Because I had beautiful cabinets for in the dressing
room, Mrs. Colby, for her purses and hundreds of shoes and
239
brassieres, you name it. All that separate, separate,
separate drawers and drawers. Yeah.
LASKEY: Is craftsmanship just not important to American
workmen? Or is it Just not part of our tradition? Or —
SORIANO: I don't think it is.
LASKEY: Why is it difficult?
SORIANO: I don't think it-- Is nothing to do with our
tradition. The contrary. I think America was built
because if you make a better mousetrap you succeed, don't
you? So that means that you have to really do some better
work. The trouble is the forces- -the unions and several
individuals — not that I'm against unions, but on the
contrary — the unions have been — Originally, it was all
right. But all of a sudden now they became the worst
enemies of themselves. Because all they think is money,
money, money rather than to educate the craftsmen
properly .
The same thing with architecture. Why do you suppose
we are producing a whole bunch of "unhatched eggs, " I call
them. And I will use that expression which I think fits to
architects who know nothing. Not the A-B-C of architecture
to do buildings, and that's why our cities are so
horrible. They're playing with all these fantasies,
gimmickry, painting, sculpture. They depend on these
artificialities to make their architecture viable. That's
240
all you see. Just gimmickry. Nothing else. Nothing
logical architecturally. No. Because architecture
transcends that area of this gimmickry. Which is like
Bach. His music is superb because these structures, these
tonalities [are] so beautiful. The same thing, the Hindu
music, is the same way. These beautiful structuring of
tonalities. [imitates tones] It's like the atmosphere,
like the air. Like the oceans. You don't find gimmickry
in the ocean, you don't find gimmickry in the air. You
don't find gimmickry in the flowers, the plants, do you?
No. Never. This is a natural process and it's clear,
orderly. That's the thing. Yeah. Yes, darling, that's
the way it is. Unfortunately we are in a very, state of
decadence which to me is very disastrous and it might be
the ruin of America if we don't watch out, really. We find
what's happening to the automobile industry. Yeah. And
we ' re complaining that many cars are sold are the foreign
cars rather than the American cars. Well, we made it. I
read an article in 1940 about these gadgets they put on the
automobile industry. All this chrome, facings, for
nothing. And I said, "When are we going to learn that?"
In 1940 I wrote this article. Yeah. It was published in
the Philosophical Library of New York: New Architecture
and City Planning.
Here, give me that book, will you please? The one.
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you see that? The International --red- -International- -
LASKEY: Oh, the International Who's Who?
SORIANO: Yeah, on top of that there is a, this sort of tan
reddish book. The New Architectiire and City Planning.
LASKEY: Here you go.
SORIANO: Thank you. Yeah. This is the one I wrote,
[turns through pages] Yeah. It's really interesting,
isn't it? Let's see what my book-- [Page] 290. Yeah,
[turns pages] Here it is: "Some Problems of the Low-Cost
Home," 1940, by the Philosophical Library of New York, New
Architecture and City Planning, by [Paul] Zucker. Let's
see if I have the place there. I said [in the book],
"Unfortunately, it took a horrible carnage like war to
bring to light the stupidity of making hundreds of
variations of the same article simply by adding superfluous
embellishments." Isn't that what we're doing today?
LASKEY: Yes.
SORIANO: Okay. [continues reading] "With one stroke, our
publicity machinery and our manufacturers, forced by
patriotic duty" — that was during the war, see?-- "began
advocating conservation of materials." Yeah. "In
conserving, one must say the most with the least. Is not
this one of the most important laws in any kind of
creation?" That's what Bach does, isn't it? Yeah. "In
the design of a chair, the building of a house, in planning
242
a city, in writing music" --you see?-- "is not this what the
client asks of the architect and what the architect must
give to his client?" I asked these questions, yeah. "We
still like to dress our inventions, if not with complicated
dresses of the middle ages, still with simple streamlined
dresses." Yeah. That's what we used to do with our cars,
streamline [with] chrome lines. For what? [continuing]
"Dresses which are nonetheless still dresses. Our
inventive achievements can stand on their own merits. They
do not need external embellishments to show their
usefulness. I'm not speaking here of likes and dislikes of
individuals. Everyone has the right to buy or make for
himself anything he wishes, but certainly no one should
assume the responsiblity of making for people's
consumption, designs that need psychoanalysis."
LASKEY: [laughs]
SORIANO: Yeah. That was in 1940. [laughs] Actually, to
be truthful, it was 1939 when I wrote this; it was
published in 1940. I said, "People have been loud for
centuries with false notions," and this is what they're
doing even more now. "They will need re-education to bring
back the normal innate appreciation of intelligent forms.
I blame more than anyone else the designers of this
pathetic state." Yes. Yeah. "I blame more "--yeah- -"the
designers of this pathetic state. Their misdeeds have
243
contaminated everything inside and outside of the
houses." True today? Yeah. Ay-yi-yi-yi-yi-ya. "I have
seen too many serious efforts on the part of some of my
colleagues and myself spoiled because of this general
epidemic of confusion." True today?
LASKEY: Yes.
SORIANO: Well, anyway, I go on. And look what I proposed
for prefabricated houses. In slices, and of wood. Look.
I was designing already the two walls and the ceiling at
the same time. Prefinished. And the floors prefinished.
All you do [is] bolt it. And you can stack these things
one on top of the other. See? Bam, bam, bam: like
chairs.
LASKEY: It really is amazing, or interesting--
SORIANO: That's in 1939.
LASKEY: Oh. Before the war.
SORIANO: Yeah. These are lovely? And I have also the one
I did for Consolidated Voltee Aircraft Company. Give me
that thing on top there. I'll show you. Right down-- The
very top. This magazine [Architectural] Forum.
LASKEY: This one right here?
SORIANO: Yeah. You already know that one. You've seen
it.
LASKEY: Yes. I saw that.
SORIANO: Okay. Did you remember what I did right there?
244
LASKEY: Was that the umbrella — ?
SORIANO: Yes.
LASKEY: Yes.
SORIANO: Yes.
LASKEY: Well, as I was starting to say, I think it's so
interesting that Americans, who have this love affair with
progress and new things, haven't adopted it for their
houses .
SORIANO : No .
LASKEY: It just makes-- I mean, they like everything else
to be modern, they like streamlining, they like new
materials. They love portable things.
SORIANO: That's correct.
LASKEY: But they haven't accepted it in house design,
which — Especially in Los Angeles, well, I think any place-
SORIANO: All over.
LASKEY: — that housing has become so incredibly expensive
that only the rich can have houses. I think they would be
delighted.
SORIANO: This is exactly it. This is what has happened.
This is what I've been talking for years and years and
years until I am about-- I sound like a broken record,
ruminat[ing] the same things. But even here, in 1939 I
wrote this article--article was published in Architectural
Forum--"The New House in 194X." Yeah. You remember that
245
Idea that's like an airplane. I said, "Why not use
that?" And you should read what I had in here. I had no
wiring for the houses anymore- -using completely activated
lights with paints, you see? And instead of wiring which
was — I was anticipating things that will be scientifically
done in a house which will eventually be.
LASKEY: I love the idea of wheeling the house to the lot.
SORIANO: Exactly.
LASKEY: Just have all the utilities put in in advance and
then —
SORIANO: And, then, also look at the floor: telescope.
Right there. Prefinished floor, once you prepare the
grounds. And also, now look what I did here and look what
other colleagues of mine [did] when they took the "new
house 194x, " like Douglas Meyer and Eric Nicholson. Look
at this kind of a thing: plain, with-- You see little
sketches. But they don't-- They didn't do anything,
[turns pages] Look. Look at this. What is that?
Nothing, really. And some designing little bathrooms and
little — This is the same old stuff. "Flexible space."
But then, I was thinking of structures, not just simply
little cubicles. Look. This kind of thing-- Like one
fellow from California, near Berkeley, Russian-born, said--
what his name is? Michael Goodman-- "Yeah, but using the
same old wood, the same old stuff. Nothing really
246
innovative." But the idea you have to put all this because
there are not many people, well, going ahead. [turns
pages] Look at this, Durham White; I don't know who he was
anyway. Look at this, is that anything new? Nah. No.
Even some of the big names were doing the same old stuff.
Yeah. [turns pages] These are all the real boys-- Yeah,
at the time they-- There's Harwell Harris--betting lounge,
he designed. But still he has the same old stuff that —
Yeah. Look at that. [turns pages] Gadgets, gadgets, the
same old junk. Neutra. There's Neutra. At least —
LASKEY: Oh, Neutra?
SORIANO: Yes, here's Neutra. He was doing at least, look,
modularly planned — At least he had that system of
precision.
LASKEY: Well, this is nineteen — What, what —
SORIANO: This was the 1920-30, he designed this.
LASKEY: Oh.
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: But what issue of Architectural Forum is this?
SORIANO: This is September 1942.
LASKEY: 'Forty- two. So the war was already well on.
SORIANO: Yes, yes, yes. and this is what they thought the
new houses will be in "194X."
LASKEY: At some point in —
SORIANO: Yeah, yeah. And so-- But, you know, I
247
anticipated these type of things, new things rather than
the same old things like that. Yeah. Foundation savers,
prefabricated parts, same old wood, so —
LASKEY: Well, they did a lot of prefabrication during the
war, didn't they? Didn't the army and navy — ?
SORIANO: Aaaaaah. Nah.
LASKEY: No?
SORIANO: That's all because you can take a machine that
makes [one] hundred nails in one shot instead of by hammer
and nail, so big deal. What is that? That doesn't mean
anything. That's not prefabrication.
LASKEY: Oh.
SORIANO: That's using the same old stuff only [with a]
little bit of makeup to make you look prettier quickly.
LASKEY: Oh.
SORIANO: In other words, when you come out from sleep
[such] that you're tired or maybe your eyes don't feel so
good, put a little makeup quickly. That'll hide a
multitude of sins. This is what they're trying to do by
having a machine that can do that. So what? Big deal.
LASKEY: But it wasn't really prefabricated parts--
SORIANO: No, no.
LASKEY: --where they would just truck them out and
assemble camps.
SORIANO: Exactly. It still will be the same old junk.
248
They look the same way. (That's okay, don't worry.) Yeah,
yeah.
LASKEY: Well, something that you said just a few minutes
ago reminded me of something that I wanted to talk to you
about, and that was the — that you tended to use — was it
eight-foot ceilings? Wasn't that unusual? And doors.
SORIANO: Yes, my doors, I — See, I-- That's true. I used
to say, "My god! Look at — " Like this door here.
LASKEY: Yes.
SORIANO: This is seven-foot ceiling here-- This one is not
even eight- -which is not the standard housing authority
standard--but seven. And some builder did it. The father
of this jackass did it, you see. And you see, have an
eight-inch piece of stuff in there, on top of the door.
And most of the doors [are] six foot [by] eight [inches] .
That is one-foot-four-inch space on top. And I said, "How
ridiculous that is. Why?" And I used to watch the amount
of time spent- -
I measured the time of what the carpenter to make the
blocking of the one-foot-four-inches space above the
door. The amount of time it took to block it up. Then the
plasterers have to come, then you put all the plaster
moldings and everything else to hold the plaster around the
door header and all that. And I said to myself, "How
awful! How wasteful. The cost of that is so horrible."
249
And I ask how much a complete door, an eight-foot door? I
have this written up in one of the articles. The average
door used to cost about five dollars or six dollars. They
will charge you almost twenty dollars for the door — for an
eight-foot door.
LASKEY: For an eight-foot door.
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: So that's —
SORIANO: Three times, four times the amount.
LASKEY: About three times.
SORIANO: And sometimes not. Maybe ten dollars more. And
so I used to figure, it's still cheaper than the labor
that — And we had to spend a hundred dollars to put that
piece of stuff on top of the door! And then I said,
"Nonsense. Eliminate that." I said, "Figure eight-foot
doors and eliminate that cost on top." And I used to argue
with the builders and the subcontractors. And they'd say,
"Oh, no." I said, "Well, tell me, how much you spending is
painting on top with that header?" "Well, now, I don't
know; we take it all as one." "No," I said, "I want you to
tell me that. Maybe I won't eliminate that." And we used
to come — They were more expensive, yes. They didn't know
it themselves. But now they advertise, you know, you have
big ads: "Use eight-foot doors because they are money
savers , they ' re cheaper . " Yeah . Now .
250
LASKEY: That's interesting.
SORIANO: After how many years? [laughing] Half -century
afterwards. Yeah. Yes ma'am, that's Mr. Soriano for
you . Yeah .
LASKEY: Well--
SORIANO: Not accepting. Questioning. Yeah. Observing,
questioning, questioning, questioning. And that's the only
way innovations come. But then they used to make my life
miserable. They used to go to the owner and say, "Why the
hell do you want to [have] eight-foot doors for?" Yeah, no
kidding. And the clients would —
LASKEY: The contractors would go--
SORIANO: Yes! They would go to —
LASKEY: — to the clients?
SORIANO: — the clients, yes. They said, you know, "You
want to save money?" You know, "These eight-foot doors you
have — " They used to blame [it] on the eight-foot doors.
And I said, "Don't listen to them. They are liars." And I
used to finally challenge them. And I said, "How dare you
tell me that costs more. How much do you spend on top
there? What are you figuring?" "Well, we take the whole
job." (As I mentioned before.) I said, "No, you don't
take the whole-- You figure every inch of it, don't you?"
I want to find out how much it costs you to block this and
plaster that. I want a precise answer to that." And they
251
used to give it to me. And finally they began to see.
"Well now, of course, we take [it] as a whole thing--
Again, they used to bring that to-- I said, "No, no. I'll
tell you what. Don't put any of that on top. All right?
Eliminate that since it costs you that much; I'll buy the
eight-foot doors, okay?" With a geminold, which have
prefabricated doors, fine. And that's what I did. And
that's how I start these things, always.
And besides, when I did the prefabrication with the
cabinets made in the factory, I brought them together with
the cabinets and the jambs together so it was all assembly
method; there was no problem- -no plaster. I didn't use
plaster anymore anyway. Yeah.
LASKEY: When you went from the wood frame or, you know,
from wood to your steel houses, you also went from ribbon
windows--the smaller windows — to the whole glass walls.
But the other walls, were they plywood? When you stopped
using plaster, what did you use for the fill when you went
to your modular housing?
SORIANO: Well, there are lots of walls. For example, we
use inch-and-an-eighth plywood.
LASKEY: Plywood.
SORIANO: Which is very good sound. Is almost as good as
plaster walling in insulation and all that. Inch and an
eighth thick.
252
LASKEY: Would the plywood actually be what the surface
was? The exterior surface was plywood?
SORIANO: The plywood then we used-- We used good plywoods
on the inside, and on the outside I used to put other- -
another layer of plywood. Or I used to put a marine grade
plywood of a different material, or I used to put in
cork . That ' s what I did .
LASKEY: I know, the cork we'd talked about.
SORIANO: That's exactly what it was.
LASKEY: But, would plywood — ? Would you then just paint
it? Or how would you — ?
SORIANO: No.
LASKEY: Because I think of plywood as being perishable.
SORIANO: No.
LASKEY: Or would warp, or would stain.
SORIANO: Depending [on] what you use, you see. There are
many grades of plywood. There are a hundred grades of
plywood. You have to choose the proper properties of the
plywood. The marine grades of plywood which will stand any
kind of salt water and then moisture. Then you finish them
properly. On the inside I used to use beautiful woods
laminated to the plywood, if I ordered it properly from the
factory. Or we used to apply another quarter of an inch on
top welded, again, with infrared light and epoxies. And
then the one-and-an-eighth-inch plywood used to be like a
253
core, which was an excellent insulation. And that's the
way I used to do it. And then the outside I could face-- I
can put anything. I could put — Either leave it alone by
ordering marine grade or redwood or whatever I wanted on
the outside, or use any other material applied to it as I
did-- And so become like a sandwich wall which used to be
about two inches, two and a half inches thick. Yeah. And
instead of the so-called six inches thick of the plaster
and two-by-fours and all that, which is silly, you save
inches on the inside. Yeah.
LASKEY: How did you deal with the problem of Southern
California heat with the glass--with the sliding glass
windows or the large glass walls?
SORIANO: I didn't think I had any problem there because I
don't think it was-- They were all very well insulated.
Most of the heat flies [out] from the top, you see? You
know, the average house supposedly that they tell you, with
a hip roof, they say that insulates. That's a lot of
nonsense. That becomes the hot box, especially [when] they
put the shingles that are like that. That space in there
becomes so hot, it transmits the heat downward.
Now, I'll tell you, the girl you met, Maureen, she has
a house she had done by one of the so-called conservative
architects, John Lloyd King, in Tiburon at the time; he's
dead now. And he did all this woodsy stuff. And he has
254
the bedroom upstairs. She has a ceiling which is more than
eight feet high. It's almost like fourteen feet high with
a slanting roof going up to the sky, and he has one of
those round bulbs hanging from the top there. You can--
Suppose the bulb burns [out] . You have to have a ladder to
go and change that bulb and remove the fixture. I mean
this is done. And you should see how hot the room gets.
Yeah. And you hear all the rain falling on top of that,
the shingles and all that's on top. Now, this is how
cheaply done, even though they used to permit this kind of
construction. And they used to think this, this is what
sells, yeah. Unfortunately, this is the-- Most people
never pay attention to these little details. Yeah. They
go into all these abstract ideas of making it this, this
will be cooler, but it isn't. It's worse. Yeah. And the
ribbon glasses, the reason of the ribbon glass-- Do you
know why?
LASKEY: No.
SORIANO: You study any room when you have a window in a
dark space, [then] another window-- Like in a conservative
thing you have windows with a space — You see in the
restaurant there, see? Window and a space, window and a
space — You go inside, you find that window becomes very
glarey in contrast to the dark space. You have not a
series — Bup, bup, bup, bup, glarey, glarey, shots of the
255
window. By making only one ribbon, then you have one
unified concept of soft light all the way through. Yeah.
This is why we did all these ribbon windows: continuity of
glass. That was the reason. Most people think it's just
the style. It's nothing —
LASKEY: "It looks good."
SORIANO: Nothing to do with it. It looks good all right
because it was all unified concept. One reposed, lovely
window, instead of just shots of annoying things. Just
like noises: enh! enhl enh! enh! Like that, see? Yeah.
Instead of talking: aaaaaah. Yeah?
LASKEY: Okay.
SORIANO: That will describe it I think.
LASKEY: So when you went-- When you were able to eliminate
the bearing walls, then you could go fully to glass or--
SORIANO: You can do anything you want with it.
LASKEY: Anything you wanted to.
SORIANO: I can put glass, I can put panels, I could put
glass and panels, I can do anything I want in there. Free,
freedom. But if you have your walls to support your
ceiling, you can't do that. Mine: just little columns
hold the whole thing. They're so designed to resist
seismic stresses in any direction. Yeah.
LASKEY: I can't remember which house it was--I'm sorry; I
think it may have been the Cook House- -that used the
256
decking as part of the ceiling. And [I was] reading that
you actually went in where the decking was laying on the
joint, that you filled in the spaces with —
SORIANO: Plexiglas.
LASKEY : Plexiglas .
SORIANO: Yeah. I do that. Because it gives you a lovely
quality to it. You get extra light, and it has a marvelous
feeling. Yeah.
LASKEY: Well, that's attention to detail you've been
talking about.
SORIANO: Absolutely. And you should see, not only that,
but I can tell you many other details related to that
Plexiglas in relationship to the corrugation to the
building. Yeah. You know, normally, you will see — Like
in the Adolph's [Building] I did these things very
beautifully. We used a lot of Plexiglas, transoms above
the areas of the cabinets to the ceiling. Now, the
Plexiglas that I used was very interesting. I used a
joint — which I'll show you, I have a very interesting
detail, sample of it. And then you say, "Well, now, how we
going to put the [Plexiglas] to the surface of the
decking? The Plexiglas to adhere that . " (I'm going to
change that [microphone] in a minute.) And then you'll see
what I did there. (Now, I'm going to turn this because
those people will make lot of noise outside, yeah. Let's
257
turn this — Very simple. ) So I used a very interesting
device. See, you assume the Plexiglas was like that, you
see, this size assuming, and then the — This will go to the
surface like that, but, you know, a metallic surface or any
other surface, when you put one next to the other it is
always — There is not an even nor — Might be a little wave,
you see? Now, immediately, they — When we did these
details under my supervision, my own details of Plexiglas,
then the men said, "Well, we can always put a putty." I
said, "No putties in my building. No sir." "Well, how are
we going to have the seal completely sealed for sound?" I
said, "Well, use your brains. Do you know how? See what
you can do." I challenge them. But I knew already what we
do, you see. Well, they couldn't think of it; putty was
the only thing. I said, "Look, why do you suppose I
ordered these to have a half-round [piece] here. Do I?
Half-round? Didn't you do that? Do you have that in
fabrication, that you made a half-round?" "Oh, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought we were going to fill that
with putty." I said, "No. You put in a tube, a round tube
of Plexiglas or Lucite or whatever. A tube, like a
pipe." And I said, "Set it in there; half in there, half
against the ceiling. That makes a perfect adhesion and it
takes in all the different defects of corrugation and makes
a perfect fit. And that seals the noise. Better than
258
putty; then [it] always be there." That's what we did.
Yeah. "Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes!" And it was beautiful,
and it's still there. When you go there I'll show you in
the building, you'll see. (All right, I'm going to change
this. I'm being — ) [tape recorder off]
LASKEY: With the Adolph's Building and the Plexi[glas]
that we've been talking about, you could easily have put
panels, you could have put boards--surfaces that you
couldn't see through. Obviously you did it because you
wanted the light. And I wonder — this is a very romantic
kind of a question — but does it have anything to do with
your background on Rhodes? The idea of the importance of
light?
SORIANO: Nah. Not at all.
LASKEY: No?
SORIANO: Nothing to do with it. I don't think I identify
with any-- At least not that I'm aware of. Maybe
subconsciously I may, but I don't think so. I don't
identify myself with this type of things. I feel I just
design things logically to solve a problem at the time with
the principles I'm working with.
LASKEY: But you could have solved that problem in- -by
simply closing off the light, too, which is what-- Well,
most architects would have had a wall there, a floor-to-
ceiling wall. But the idea that you chose not to put a
259
floor-to-ceillng wall, in fact that you didn't have a wall
at all — But the space, when you closed the space off for
sound, you didn't close it off for light. I think that's
an interesting choice.
SORIANO: Yes. I did, in some areas where we needed no
light. I have a room there — When you'll see it, it was
completely black. Dark. And I did it with devices
completely black. Yeah. Now, the things that I did
mostly — Most of these offices were working spaces for
secretaries, executives, and so on. And even the
president, as you will see, they are between patios with
beautiful gardens; lovely, exquisite areas where you
live. They are the most beautiful spaces imaginable for
offices. And the secretaries love them. They all have a
private garden, each one. And not only that, but they also
have the privilege of shutting the music that is taped from
the central music system — We used to play nothing but
classical music there when Mr. Deutch used to be alive. He
loved only the classical music. But now, unfortunately,
the people there play all this rock junk, sort of pseudo-
emasculated type of music. The Muzak.
LASKEY: Oh.
SORIANO: Which is sad, you know. And I know Mr. Deutch
would have jumped from the grave if he heard that. Because
I designed a beautiful music area with tape recorders and
260
whatnot, record players and all that. Yeah. And It really
hurts me when I see that- -when I go there and they play
that awful junk. But anyway, that's the — They keep
telling me something: "Well, that's the music--" this and
that. But if they wanted they could do it, you see. I
think the people who are running the show now don ' t want
it. I know that for a fact.
And the fact that I did all this openness and above
the transoms with the lights-- I have indirect lighting all
the way through in the whole building; you don't see a
single light fixture in there. Not one. No register for
air-conditioning either. They're all com[ing] from a
trough on top of the cabinets, on top of the doors. And it
continues all over the whole building. It's one city
block. This is an innovation I did, you see? I can't —
It's hard to explain all of that. And then when you go
there, you'll see how beautiful that is. And that gives to
the offices for the secretaries some lovely lightness and
openness instead of being constricted with darkness. Then
this way, we have economy also of light. You see. Now.
261
TAPE NUMBER: V, SIDE ONE
JULY 20, 1985
LASKEY: The Colby Apartments were your last major
commission in Los Angeles before you moved up here to
Tiburon.
SORIANO: No, the —
LASKEY: I mean, you —
SORIANO: The Adolph's.
LASKEY: From Tiburon —
SORIANO: Oh, I see. I see.
LASKEY: --you would do the Adolph's Building —
SORIANO: Yeah, yeah.
LASKEY: But you're in Los Angeles, and then you moved up
here. And--
SORIANO: No, we did the [San Pedro Community] Hospital
[1961].
LASKEY: Oh, the hospital was after that?
SORIANO: Yes. Because I was here already when we did the
hospital. Yeah. Sure. Si, Madame, this is true. Because
the Colby was in '50; the hospital was a little later.
LASKEY: But did you do it in Los Angeles? Or did you work
on it--
SORIANO: We worked on the plans here and we had other
people working in different area — Los Angeles, you see.
The rest of the project architects were in Los Angeles.
262
Yeah.
LASKEY: But the Colby Apartments were —
SORIANO: Were In Los Angeles, exclusively.
LASKEY: Were In Los Angeles.
SORIANO: That's correct. Correct.
LASKEY: Then you, after they were completed you came up
here.
SORIANO : Yes .
LASKEY: And you did your other work from up here.
SORIANO : Yes .
LASKEY: And of course, the Adolph's Building you did from
up here.
SORIANO: I did it from up here. Exclusively.
LASKEY: And the hospital, which I hadn't realized. But
then your other work mainly was in the [San Francisco] Bay
Area?
SORIANO : Yes .
LASKEY: Were there any major changes in what you did,
because the climate and the terrain and the--
SORIANO: Not necessarily, not necessarily, really.
LASKEY: — attitudes toward architecture are different.
SORIANO: This is — People romanticize the Bay Area
region['s] architecture, the Bay Area — all that nonsense.
That's coined by critics and writers who know nothing.
Ignorant. They gave all this aura-- The Bay Area, Bay
263
region architecture, the Bay Area whatever- -or the
International Style. These are all nonsense words. To me
these are gimmick words by critics of- -writers who know
nothing. It's nice to have adjectives, titles-- So what do
they represent? What is the Bay Area architecture?
Nothing. [Richard J.] Neutra has done houses here.
They're not different from the ones he did in Los
Angeles. And I've done in design things in Hawaii which
are similar to the ones I designed in other places, so they
have different climate, yes. I have designed things for
Guam and even for Alaska. I have projects which I never
built. But then, unfortunately, due to circumstances- -war
and all that stuff — prevented from these projects from
being realized. However, the adjustment to climatic
conditions has to do with what you do with the insulation,
with the glare and so on, orientation. A lot of factors to
consider. It's all a matter of consideration of factors
for a performance. A process of architecture for a
particular performance. This is very important. Yeah.
This is the way I worked. I don't romanticize because it
is this, it is that, and therefore I want it that way. And
you find many people who even build in the East, they have
houses that look very much like the ones in San Francisco
or Los Angeles. All this colonial housing; they're not
different. Yeah. They are all awful. They are unlivable
264
to begin with, whether here or there. Only with there they
have severe climates, they have to depend on more heat kind
of fixture.
Now, I was in London, as I told you, last November
lecturing there. And the chairman of the Royal Institute
of British Architects — He came to see me twenty years
ago. He was in my office here in Tiburon. Was here. And
he told me that he came for look of work for me. And now,
he says I was responsible for that direction in
architecture. Yeah. And you should see the modern house
they built. They built a lovely pavilion of aluminum and
glass. Where? Between two renaissance buildings.
LASKEY: In London?
SORIANO: Yes! In London, London, London! if you please.
And you should see what they did. They even put a glass
roof so they can look at the trees. Because London is
always raining and gloomy and it becomes very — You should
see how charming their house is, and my-- I'll tell you
their names: Robin Spence is his name.
LASKEY: Robin Webb Spence?
SORIANO: No, Robin Spence.
LASKEY: Robin Spence.
SORIANO: And also, he built that in partnership with the —
Also Robin Webster, but Robin Spence [is] the one who did
that pavilion. And his wife Delia Spence was absolutely
265
charming. They're both very dear friends of mine and
charming. Really. Gracious people.
And so they have this pavilion of glass and
aluminum. And you should see the fixtures, you should see
the connections; they use all the industrially produced
things that they use even in trucks to build that house.
Now people will say, "My god! In London, this?" My god,
they can tell you that. Maybe tomorrow we'll give them a
ring. Then you talk to them and see. Really, because I
haven't spoken to him — What time is it now? It will be
eight hours again. Six, eight hours. It's exactly
midnight there. Yeah. I don't know if I should wake him
up now. And they're absolutely beautiful people. They can
tell you themselves how marvelous the houses are. How this
architecture's beautiful-- And I saw also there are groups
of architects. A husband and wife do, also, the same type
of things that I do.
LASKEY: How do you insulate a glass house in a climate
like London?
SORIANO: They can use two glasses, double glaze. Or
triple sometimes.
LASKEY: Oh.
SORIANO: You can do anything you want. We have to use our
brains and science, isn't it? We have it. Yeah. There
are all kinds of glasses which are reflective. Yeah. And
266
you insulate the up. Even you can put two layers of
glass. That will insulate. There's no problem at all.
How do you suppose they insulate a little--the airplanes?
Here you [have] again a skin of aluminum, isn't it?
LASKEY: Yes.
SORIANO: And yet you ride in comfort- -you go forty
thousand feet, which is below zero. Yeah. Have you flown
to Hawaii?
LASKEY: No, I never have.
SORIANO: Well, you-- Hawaii is, you know, hot, humid, and
lovely, balmy. And then all of a sudden you take the
plane, in a few minutes you're about forty thousand feet up
in the air which is minus forty degrees or something;
cold! And yet you're very comfortable there. Sitting on
the plane eating a marvelous dinner or lunch, whatever they
serve you. Not marvelous so much in cuisine. [laughter]
But anyway, you eat. So they give you all the food and
then you have music. You can — Even especially if you use
the French airlines — UTA I think it is, yeah — they have a
beautiful Bach or Scarlatti or Vivaldi. Yeah, they have
these beautiful choices of music that you can listen on the
earphone. They play it constantly. Beautiful thing.
Absolutely enjoyable. Then you are comfortable even better
than the slum I am in here. Yeah.
LASKEY: But that's essentially an artificially created
267
environment on an airplane. This Is--
SORIANO: So what?
LASKEY: Well, I'm just thinking in terras of a house that--
SORIANO: We are creating it — It's not an artificially
created environment, too? A house? Because the
environment is outside when there is nothing. When you
enclose something, you build something that's — You're
doing it artificially, isn't it? Call it that if you want
to.
LASKEY: I don't think I'm saying what I mean to say. I'll
tiry again: that with a house, unless you want to
constantly have an air-conditioning system or heating
system, which is what I think you're--
SORIANO: Well, don't you? Don't you?
LASKEY: No, not in Southern California.
SORIANO: Well, I know; Southern California. But in the
East? Ha, ha!
LASKEY: No, in the summer we never had an air con-- Where
I grew up we never had an air conditioner.
SORIANO: Where? Where?
LASKEY: Grand Rapids, Michigan. It got pretty humid, but--
SORIANO: But humid — What do you do with the humidity?
LASKEY: You sweat a lot.
SORIANO: You like to be comfortable. Sweat a lot, yeah.
How about in the winter?
268
LASKEY: Heat.
SORIANO: What kind of heat?
LASKEY: Well, we had artificlal--
SORIANO: Stuff is artificial, isn't it?
LASKEY: Yeah, right.
SORIANO: Yeah, it's not natural any more than will be in
Southern California —
LASKEY: But that's what I'm saying, that, in particular,
would you design houses differently? Would the climate
dictate the design of the house?
SORIANO: It does.
LASKEY: Or could you take the same design and put it in
any climate?
SORIANO: You could, as a matter of fact, by adjusting the
elements, whatever you want. In other words, I said
before, it's all a matter of adjusting it to a process of
performance. You do something for a particular
performance, meaning if you have to use a name, in a
climate which is very severe, you have to use insulation,
naturally. You find condensation of the atmosphere [on]
the glasses. You see, there will be hot inside and cold
outside; there [is] a lot of freezing and condensation will
occur. So you make provisions for that. Scientifically
you can do it. This is what I mentioned, that the
satellites and planes we have. Because they have taken
269
care scientifically to regulate that, to be comfortable.
You do the same thing with the houses, which is, again,
artificial, isn't it? Yeah, it is artificially done.
LASKEY: But it's somewhat less artificial.
SORIANO: No, it's not--
LASKEY: I mean, unless, unless you want it to be-- Unless
it's going to be horrendously expensive to run, I think
that—
SORIANO: No, it —
LASKEY: — you have to have, you know, a —
SORIANO: Now, this is true, this is true. However, we are
talking about now in sort of climates which are not too
extreme. If you're talking about San Francisco and Los
Angeles, naturally, you have to use not the expensive air-
conditioning system that we use in the East- -even the
heating systems that we use in the East. You will require
a tremendous amount [of] humidifier and heat, otherwise
you'll suffocate with the heat in the winter. I've been —
I was in the East. I lived there. Even in Saint Louis,
where it gets absolutely humid and cold-- Well, the climate
is very severe in that area. And I lived in New Haven,
Connecticut, when I was lecturing at Yale [University], and
some of the places in New York, yes. To me that was very
stifling. I couldn't bear even to be constantly there in
this below zero outside. And inside, you know, has to be
270
hot and protective, but it gets very oppressive to the
system. Well, you have to have very fine air-conditioning,
or you have the regular hot systems, just furnaces that
blow hot air.
LASKEY: Right.
SORIANO: Well, that means there [is] plenty of expense
again. Money. Money dictates what kind of a system you
want to have. But it's still — It's all artificial, isn't
it, still? Yeah, you heat it artificially.
LASKEY: Well, if you heat it or cool it it's already —
SORIANO: That's correct. It's all artificial made. It
isn't natural. In other words, in Hawaii--! '11 give you an
example — when I designed my houses, they all — because of
the tourists, because of all this- -they all want to have
air-conditioning systems. Which is horrible. I'll tell
you why: there's the most mild climate in Hawaii with the
winds, the trade winds, and it's balmy. Yeah. Now, the
tragedy is, all of a sudden, you put an air-conditioning
system; it's freezing, it's cold. It's cool all right, but
you go outside [and] it's the biggest shock in the world--
the difference in temperature, you see? Now, I told my
clients-- They want to have air-conditioning. I said, "Why
don't you wait? I'll make this so you'll have cross
ventilation, " because I had transoms with screen-- You know
the transoms above?
271
LASKEY: Right.
SORIANO: I had screens. So you can have cross ventilation
from both areas, across. And it will remove the heat--the
hot air — away, and then the breeze makes it very
comfortable to be in without any air-conditioning. And I
proved to my client that this was so, and he couldn't
believe it. He was going to spend money air-conditioning.
"You can always put units," I said. You can always do
that. So he realized that you didn't need it really. Now,
if you are spoiled, you think you have to have air-
conditioning system. That's what all the hotels do,
because the clients coming from the east or other places
are used to air-conditioning. You go to any hotel
nowadays — Even in Los Angeles they have air-conditioning,
isn't it?
LASKEY: Well, in the —
SORIANO: Sure they do.
LASKEY: In covered malls.
SORIANO: What's that?
LASKEY: Shopping malls.
SORIANO: Yeah. What's that?
LASKEY: Shopping centers —
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: --that are covered.
SORIANO: Oh, in covered malls.
272
LASKEY: In a place like Los Angeles.
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: Which is SO silly.
SORIANO: Well, you know why: because they have the smog,
and they have to make — Well, to you it isn't, but most
people, they think it's awful to look at the smog. It's
hideous, really. And then they make it comfortable for
you, for the clients to be there more comfortable and cool
so they can shop. It's all money making. Yeah. Because,
you see, Los Angeles — Because I lived there since 1924, I
know the climate of Los Angeles too well. Used to be
marvelous before the war. With the advent of the war, it
became smoggy as that. Otherwise it was blue sky, warm,
very clement weather, beautiful. Orange blossoms, avocado
trees. As I told you before, it is not anymore the same
way. Well —
LASKEY: We talked, and I don't think we talked on the
tape — I think we were talking at lunch yesterday about
what it was like to have been part of the architectural
scene in Los Angeles in the thirties.
SORIANO: What it was like?
LASKEY: Yeah.
SORIANO: In what respect?
LASKEY: For you. Because there was so much going on. The
whole —
273
SORIANO: It was an exciting area because they used — There
was a group of human beings there that used to seek-- They
wanted this so-called new type of architecture because they
realized they were more livable, they were more gracious,
more open. With patios they've the ability [of having]
privacy — which, before, the houses were never given this
consideration. They were given a sort of a style, a
Spanish — Mostly [they] were designed in Spanish style,
with all this silly plaster, devised by a contractor to
make it rough so as not to be careful. Yeah, that's the
reason. All this "jazzed up" plaster they used to call
it. Yeah. And the reason they did that [was] just so as
not to be very precise, very methodically well- structured
stuff. "Any old way, just knock it off." Like that,
rough — They call it "jazzed up." Yeah. It's a nice
connotation for the jazz we were talking [about] before,
isn't it?
LASKEY: Right.
SORIANO: "All this jazz"?
LASKEY: All that jazz.
SORIANO: That gives you a nice clue. Yeah. So — I don't
know, I don't know what to tell you. What were you, what
did we discuss. I forgot, sort of.
LASKEY: We were talking, just talking about what being an
architect in Los Angeles in — well, from the twenties to the
274
forties. You were there in the thirties and forties.
SORIANO: Yeah. It was very lovely because we have enough
clients- -used to come to a few of us who were really
following this marvelous movement of architecture, which
[was] started by Mr. Neutra, really. He should deserve the
first credit.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: I think so.
LASKEY: What about [Frank Lloyd] Wright in that sense? It
was Wright that Neutra and [Rudolph M.] Schindler came over
to see to, you know. They took his ideas and then followed
him out here.
SORIANO: Well, I don't think they took his ideas, but they
thought- -
LASKEY: Well, they liked his ideas, they were impressed
with the —
SORIANO: At the time, yeah, at the time they were
impressed. In fact, Neutra saw [Louis] Sullivan- -
LASKEY: That's true.
SORIANO: --at the time when he was sick and poor. He was
shocked to see him, the great Sullivan, to be absolutely
destitute and ill at the same time. And I was laughing at
that myself. [laughs] Yeah, that's really tragic, isn't
it? Pathetic, when you think of it. But--
LASKEY: Well, Wright, too--
275
SORIANO: Well, yes —
LASKEY: — paid homage to Sullivan in his declining days.
SORIANO: Yes, sure. But this is the tragedy, you know,
instead of — At least I have a little comfort that, in
their last years, you know, they're harassed with all these
deprivations and struggle of bare necessities of life.
LASKEY: Yeah.
SORIANO: Yeah. This is what I'm going through right now,
huh? Same thing. But anyway, still I have the good health
and good spirits.
LASKEY: Yeah. Sullivan had a lot [of] other problems.
SORIANO: Sure. Such as-- I don't even know.
LASKEY: He was an alcoholic.
SORIANO: Oh, he was? Well, I don't have that.
LASKEY: He was sick and he —
SORIANO: I'm fortunate; I don't have that. Only I've had
this broken leg from the accident, which bothers me.
[laughs] This I can bear it. Anyway, I've been living
with it for so many years now. Almost a half -century.
Yeah. But no, Neutra deserves the greatest credit, really,
because he was an admirable man. He did the first-- He
awakened the public, I think, to housing, to the attention,
for the first time, to housing. Before that, you know,
most of the architects were involved with big buildings,
cathedrals, and all this stuff. And housing was
276
neglected. Look at the Acropolis. Look at Rome. The only
thing that we talk about Rome or Acropolis is those big
temples, the big cathedrals. The public? All the slums.
That's what they were. They're all one on top of
another. And they romanticize about how marvelous the roof
tiles look, and that's what they tried to imitate here.
Yeah. With all this roofing, roofing — You know, you go to
the airport, you'll see those roofs looking you in the
face. Thousands of these — thousands — done by a builder.
Roofs, roofs, roofs, that's all they show you, the roofs.
And, well, that's what you have here right in Tiburon.
Look at those outside. Nothing but roofs. In all kinds of
sculptural quality, you see? It is to me incomprehensible
that nonsense.
And I was going to tell you some more-- What was it I
just—?
LASKEY: We were talking about Neutra.
SORIANO : Neutra , yes .
LASKEY: His contributions.
SORIANO: Yes, it was really — He started that, quality of
housing, and unfortunately most architects don't give him
credit for that. And it's sad. Really it is sad. More
than anybody, he was the one who tried to bring real
scientific thinking, a little more orderliness, to the
housing; nobody else did that before.
277
I'll tell you an interesting story. I was at the-- I
was in a debate with Skidmore-Owings . I think Owings, or
Merrill-- I forgot now who it was [Skidmore, Owings and
Merrill]; I have it on a newspaper. And Dorothy-- Who was
it? She was the editor of Architectural Record. Thompson.
LASKEY: Oh.
SORIANO: Dorothy Thompson. Do you know of her? Well, she
was the editor of Architectural Record, [published by]
McGraw Hill.
LASKEY: The name is familiar.
SORIANO: And I remember-- I was in the debate with them.
And there were [William W.] Wurster, and there were some
other architects who were teaching at Cal [University of
California, Berkeley], and so on--They were talking. Who
produced real innovations in housing? They immediately all
jumped. There was this debate was right here in Northern
California, San Francisco. They said, "Well, Wurster, of
course; Wurster."
LASKEY: William Wurster?
SORIANO: Yeah, William Wurster. They kept eulogizing him.
LASKEY: What did he do?
SORIANO: Nothing! Nothing in housing that meant
anything. Zero. You can quote me. And you are anyway- -
LASKEY: I am quoting you. [laughs]
SORIANO: Yeah. And for reasons of reality. The only
278
thing is, he got this big publicity as a real politician.
And he'd married that girl who wrote about housing or slums
or whatever it was; I forgot his wife's name.
And so I let them talk — They were talking, talking,
talking, talking about Wurster: how Wurster did that, how
Wurster did that. And then there was silence, that's it.
And then I said finally, "Well, aren't we forgetting
somebody? Someone?" Then they looked at me as if
something strange had descended from the sky to question
them. And then I said, "Yes." I said, "What's the matter
with Mr. Neutra?" They said, "Oh, yes, yes. Shall we say — "
Then immediately they picked up this stuff-- "Shall we say
for Northern California, Wurster; for Southern California,
Neutra?" I said, "No, no, no." I said, "Neutra did the
only really contributions to housing; not Wurster." And I
gave — I give my spiel why, and so on. But, you see, this
is the tragedy of all these romantic sort of playing
politics, personal politics, politicizing statements, you
see? And then they were entirely eliminating. And I said,
"Mr. Neutra has done that more than anybody else. Wurster,
what has he done?" Done all the same old little shacks all
over the place. I said, "Is that a contribution to
housing?" And of course they could not answer that one
because they knew damn well that they were just talking not
with knowledge.
279
I think I'll show you something. I think I may have
something here-- What they did build in the USA. You have
that one?
LASKEY: No, I don't have that one.
SORIANO: Well, this was published years ago. They have my
nursery there and I'll show you what Wurster did. Then you
will know what I'm talking about. [looks through book]
You see, I have my nurseries here. Look at that.
LASKEY: That's beautiful.
SORIANO: See, look at all these pictures. Have you seen
that?
LASKEY: Yes, I've seen several pictures--
SORIANO: Okay now, I'll show you. Now, [Pietro]
Belluschi. Look what Belluschi used to do. Look at that
wood. Look, this is completely unadmirable.
LASKEY: May I see that?
SORIANO: Yeah, yeah. Shopping center. But anyway, I just
want to get to Wurster. And this is Mr. Wurster, the type
of thing, office building. What is that, what is admirable
about this nonsense? Any builder would do that.
LASKEY: Yeah.
SORIANO: Nothing. There is Wurster, [Theodore C]
Bernardi, and [Donn] Emmons, okay. Now, I'll show you
something else about Wurster with another thing- -but the
bicentennial brochure. Have you ever seen that
280
bicentennial brochure?
LASKEY: I don't think so.
SORIANO: Okay, well, now I am going to stop here for a
minute until I find It.
LASKEY: Okay. [tape recorder off]
SORIANO: If I told you about the Innovations In housing
you can see for yourself any builder could do this kind of
junk. So what Is good about this? What Is this
Innovation? Nothing. Yeah. These are all plain, with
glmmlckrles. In reality, because of wood. There Is not
really a real contribution there. And yet you look at
this, and you look at the houses of Neutra — Here, I Just
opened It; look at how beautiful that Is. He has quality.
LASKEY : I ' ve been In that house .
SORIANO: Yeah, that's a beautiful house.
LASKEY: I think It's the Kaufman House.
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: Were you around, let's see, '29 — ?
SORIANO: Yeah, I was around —
LASKEY: Were you around when they were building the Lovell
House?
SORIANO: Yes, I just came In —
LASKEY: Were you aware of--?
SORIANO: I was not aware of that one, no. This was, as a
matter of fact-- I hardly-- At the time, I went afterwards.
281
I went to — That was later that I saw-- I met Neutra when I
heard a lecture with-- You see, that was five years after I
came to America.
LASKEY: Yeah, it was awfully soon after you were here. I
didn't know if you would have been aware of it or not--
SORIANO: No, I wasn't aware even of who Neutra was, or
Frank Lloyd Wright. Yeah. You see how time marches on.
But he made innovations in architecture, in housing
particularly. He had a system of prefabrication of
industrially produced things. And Wurster did nothing of
the sort. And contrary to what they say — And then I'll
show you something else. Do you remember that I talked to
you about the KQED station that I lost?
LASKEY: Right.
SORIANO: Okay. Now, they asked this guy, Johannson, to
collaborate with this fellow. Look at the type of junk
Johannson did. That is what he did. This was —
LASKEY: Well, that looks very much like Lewis Kahn--
SORIANO: Well, I know, the same as from the East--
LASKEY: The prefab — The reinforced concete, bunker type--
SORIANO: Yeah, all these things, all this artificial
nonsense .
LASKEY: I call it neo- feudalism.
SORIANO: Well, this is exactly a good name for it; you can
call it that. I'm glad you did. [laughs] Well, this is
282
the type of individual they required. They associate
themselves to do this, which is silly. And then look at
[Robert] Venturi, all this nonsense. So big deal, they are
really satisfied with their own just junk. So what? Look
at this, Leeb House, with all this artificialities,
again. They are playing with gimmickry again; those are
not serious people.
LASKEY: Well, it's a game; it's game playing —
SORIANO: Of course.
LASKEY: It's neoclassical —
SORIANO: It's trivia, it's trivia game playing.
LASKEY: Taking, taking —
SORIANO: Look at Charles Moore. Any builder would do
that, better. You should see what he did. This is C
Ranch .
LASKEY: C Ranch, ah-hah.
SORIANO: And I've seen houses done by Swedish builders,
all dollhouses, they did almost one hundred and some
years. They were there in some area close by, because I
developed a big acreage there, in the area of C Ranch, in
that area. And, this is better than this, a thousand
times, instead of this. And so they make a big to-do about
this guy, who hasn't understood that he is playing a game
with these trivia games. Yeah. So, big deal.
LASKEY: Architectural references.
283
SORIANO: This Is the greatest man that I admire, one of
the greatest, with Neutra.
LASKEY: Buckminster —
SORIANO: [R.] Buckminster Fuller, those are my two-- And
[Pierluigi] Nervi, of course, I admire very much, [Ludwig]
Mies van der Rohe. Yeah. Look how beautiful these are.
LASKEY: Oh, those are beautiful.
SORIANO: Yeah, of course. And this is the nursery now,
which I'll show you, the Hallawell Seed [Company]. Look
how beautiful that is.
LASKEY: Ah, there it is.
SORIANO: You see. In color, in the real-- Actually, this
Is so much more beautiful. This is a beautiful blue, blue,
blue, blue, and this is a Chinese red, and this is a sort
of a fuchsia color, the trusses. And this was painted also
fuchsia color. The wood that I used, of the old wood stuff
that they had--
LASKEY: That really is beautiful —
SORIANO: I am going to close the door because these people
are going to make a lot of noise there. They are coming
from the island now and they will make a lot of noise.
Okay, Marlene. Isn't that a nice magazine?
LASKEY: It really is--
SORIANO: Now, I'll show you something interesting, too.
"It is my great pleasure to thank you for the wisdom, the
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charm, and the clarity of vision you have graced us with
during your visit. And, your allusions to music were in a
most beautiful and lucid marmer of exhibiting the process
of creativity." Isn't that interesting? These are the
type of things — some students--! forgot now-- "Your
delightful lectures, your graciousness and wit, your
vivacity and inspiration to me, for these things . . . and
the reference to Remain Holland" --which I told you--
LASKEY: Right.
SORIANO: You see, he knew that. "My Sincerest Affection,
[inaudible], I believe, [inaudible]." Is that the name? I
don't know.
LASKEY: I can't quite read that.
SORIANO: No, neither do I. Yeah, a lot of things I had.
I want to show you something very interesting. I've had--
I gave a — here — I gave this at the school. Remember I told
you the new school of architecture in Chula Vista?
LASKEY: Right. That you were not very happy with.
SORIANO: No. Just look at the sign the professor did
about my lecture, the advertising. Can you imagine the
banality, the lack of any understanding even of
calligraphy? What do you think of that?
LASKEY: Yeah.
SORIANO: What, yeah what? Well, say it. Are you ashamed
to say it?
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LASKEY: It's pretty bad.
SORIANO: All right, good, I'm glad. And look, a day
later, I gave a lecture in Chula Vista — [knocking on
door] Come in, come in, come in! I am being interviewed —
Can you imagine — ? Anyway, I'm glad I recorded this.
He doesn't know I have my attorneys. And this is what they
did in the Chula Vista university. They did this sign.
Now, can you imagine, this is a second-year student; a girl
did that. Look at the difference. This is a professor did
that. Can you imagine a thing like that? A second-year
student, a girl? And this is a professor teaching at this
Chula Vista university. This is in Mexico. Now, you just
name it. How do you like that?
LASKEY: It's a little depressing.
SORIANO: It is. It is depressing to see what we are
teaching in our schools. And this is what annoys me. And
then I have to put up with this landlord of mine, he just
came in to interrupt-- These kind of brutes, horrible human
being. Can you imagine that? No finesse even. As if the
world is coming to an end. And look at this letter I
received from — I want to stop this. It doesn't matter, I
don't want to —
LASKEY: It says, "Greetings, Mr. Soriano, embellisher of
life. You came to our college and in only one week's time
augmented my knowledge of art more than it was in my
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previous eighteen years of life. I now know to communicate
art is not the way. Your debate with David Lawrence, the
head of the art department, proved this point beyond any
doubt. The artist explained his creation. You proved it
insignificant. Your enthusiastic outlook on life and the
sharing of your knowledge will never be forgotten by me or
any of the undersigned." And it's signed, George Asch, and
then a whole list of signs.
SORIANO: Isn't that interesting?
LASKEY: Now, where was this?
SORIANO: This was in San Bernardino, somewheres out there--
LASKEY: Oh, really?
SORIANO: Yeah, in the Valley college [San Bernardino
Valley College of Law-University of La Verne] . I mean,
this is the type of-- These are only a few of the letters I
get from the people. I have hundreds of these letters like
that, and it really touches me because the students are
extremely intelligent. And you see the other thing I read
to you —
LASKEY: Right —
SORIANO: It's really, to me, it's touching, absolutely
touching to see what exists, and how-- The whole thing has
been denigrated into all these banalities of people.
Yeah. Anyway — So now you saw already my Hallawell
[Nursery and Garden Center] you saw what Wurster did, you
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saw a few documents which very seldom you find any place.
Even in a library you won't find these, because this was
given by the U.S. government for foreign consumption
only. This is not for distribution in the United States;
they don't do that. This is to propagandize our modern
architecture in foreign countries. You get that in foreign
consuls, but not in the United States.
LASKEY: That's a beautiful publication.
SORIANO: Yeah. Isn't that something? Yeah. And here you
see what I have. What I have done, how I am appreciated,
even by our own beautiful government. Our own country.
And here I am totally effaced. I haven't done anything for
the last fifteen years. I haven't built one single
thing. Maybe I will do something. Today you have heard
Mr. [Leo G.] Rigler. He wants to build a house. I hope
so, because it has been going on for a long time. Yeah,
that ' s the tragedy .
LASKEY; Well, what's the possibility of building more of
your aluminum houses?
SORIANO : I ' ve been trying . You don ' t know how many
hundreds of brochures I've sent all over. I have even sent
to the King [Faisal] of Saudi Arabia, we had correspondence
with. [laughs]
LASKEY: Let's see if I can — Let's see. I had — Yeah.
SORIANO: Correspondence, correspondence, correspondence.
288
Ah-ya-ya-ya. His Majesty, King Faisal, [inaudible], Saudi
Arabia. And this was '74, lcx)k at this. Now, totally
describing my aluminum concepts of all these houses, they
want that. I have letters from Iran, from the Shah of
Iran — I was going to do things in there and in a lot of
other places. And also in the Punch Bowl in Hawaii, many
places. But it is always they want money from the United
States; they want capital from the U.S. Now, and if you
don't have money from here, they just don't have it
enough. They want always to be subsidized by us-- And I
talk to people: I call here, I call there. Nobody wants
to invest in all these- -a turkey. I could have the whole
damn turkey — housing, big buildings. They wanted funding
from the United States. Big corporations, bankers, they
don ' t want to spend anything there . They ' re scared . You
see, this is-- I've had all these beautiful contacts, even
from Finland; I can show you tons of correspondence. So
what can I do? I've tried my very best, I can assure
you. There's nothing I can do beyond that. Yeah. And
it's really-- Sometimes I wonder — Maybe when I die, then
possibly my efforts will be — will come into fruition, you
see. But in the meantime I have to put up with this thing
you just heard, with my landlord. He is telling me, don't
forget the-- As if the world's coming to an end. Well,
anyway — Yeah.
289
LASKEY: What's that? You have been evicted from this
place?
SORIANO: Yeah, he gave me, he sent me a notice of
eviction, a thirty-day notice. After thirty years of
living here. It's insulting. Don't worry, I'll, I'll-- My
attorneys will —
LASKEY: But what can they do?
SORIANO: The attorneys? Well, I mean, there could be
certain tactics to use, to prevent him-- Because I told
him, I said, "I'm looking for a place, and I'll be--" And I
told him already, "I need at least until the end of August,
because I cannot just simply leave--" And he gives me
thirty days' notice. Ridiculous! It takes me that long to
pack up. I've been telling him already that I've been
looking for a place. The prices are so high, I can't
afford to. I said, "Please, have a heart." I mean, what
is this? The world is coming to an end? Is he starving to
death? And, I mean, this is really — It hurts, you know,
this type of victimization that I have been put into, from
a moron like that. And no finesse, you know. It's even
"Okay, I'll talk to you for five minutes." I mean, even if
you tell him, you know, "I am busy," you know-- No, he
wants to, he thinks that is all there is to it in life, his
own big nonsense. Don't worry, he'll have his just
desserts.
290
LASKEY: Oh, yes, ultimate justice.
SORIANO: But In the final analysis, I am a victim In this
case. Because —
LASKEY: You are definitely a victim.
SORIANO: I don't know where the hell to go. Because if I
had money, there would be nothing to it. You know what I
would do? I would say, "To hell with you, I'll move. I
will hire something, a thousand dollars a month, an
apartment, and move everything there. Okay, no problem."
But I haven't got that kind of money to give. I don't even
make it. And between us, all I get is $317 Social
Security. You know what that is?
LASKEY: Nothing.
SORIANO: It doesn't even pay my rent. I have to borrow
money to pay my rent. And because Leo gives me some, and a
few lectures I give here and there which Leo subsidizes,
and sometimes my friend Desmond Muirhead, that I can make
my two ends meet but from month to month. Beyond that,
what is there? Nothing. And it's really tragic and
serious, frankly. That's why I get so damn fed up with all
those bums. Piece of garbage-- He has never done anything
in his life — At least I have done something.
LASKEY: Was it his father who owned the property when you
started, when you first moved in?
SORIANO: No, no, no. He was — He had it already.
291
LASKEY: Oh, he had it. He's had it for thirty- three
years?
SORIANO: Oh, yes, yes —
LASKEY: For thirty- three years that you've lived here —
SORIANO: Oh, he was glad to have me as a tenant, $85 a
month it started out. He raised it to $350, in this slum
of mine. He has never done anything — Look at this. It
leaks. You should see over there, I have buckets behind
that wall. Back where those panels are, underneath
there. And it ruined many diplomas and books of mine from
the beginning. Thirty years he has never fixed it. He
goes there, and he puts a little paint here and there, and
I tell him, look, the seal on top of the door above is
where the leaks go to. Oh, no, he knows better. He has
one of those little cheap guys from school. Gives him a
pittance to put a little paint where he says. And he
really is a very ignorant, miserable character. Aaahh —
LASKEY: But you will probably have to come back to
Southern California then?
SORIANO: Oh, yes, I definitely am trying to. I am looking
for a place in San Bernardino. I saw this friend.
Professor David Hatfield from San Bernardino, and he is
looking for a place for me. Maybe I can teach there. And
then this David Hatfield is this director of this school of
San Bernardino [Valley] College. He is a good friend of
292
mine, a lovely person. He says, "Don't worry, I'll come in
with four, five students and we'll pack everything up and
take you." And so he is looking for a place for me.
LASKEY: Yes, it's going to be an enormous job.
SORIANO: That's right.
LASKEY: To pack this all up —
SORIANO: But that's all right. That's okay. I have been
cleaning things up and I ' ve been throwing out a lot of
junk, yes. And, it, it's just-- It's an annoying thing
because I've been trying to-- He keeps disturbing me like
that, every few months he's been like that. Raising the
rent, this and that, doing everything he can to disturb
me. Takes my pots, you know, throws them in there, which
is so awful. But anyway, it doesn't matter. I'll leave
here, so it'll be better off [inaudible]. I can't even
want to see him. I close the door every time he's out
there .
LASKEY: I can understand that.
SORIANO: Because it's an annoying mess.
LASKEY: It's very sad.
SORIANO: Yeah. What can I do? Nothing. You know, I hope
Lloyd — I've been telling Lloyd long time ago, I said-- He
has several lots. He has a whole hillside in Hollywood
where he wanted to build a house. And then he has several
lots, seven, below that, below the hill, belonging to
293
him. I said, "Why don't you give me one? I'll build a
house. It'll be yours anyway. And I'll bring my stuff--"
"Yes, and no — Oh, I don't want to be bothered to have a
dear friend next to me. I'll be worrying; I don't want to
worry." I said, "Okay." I said, "Don't worry about
this."
Now he suddenly seems mellowing up a little bit, and
then he has been doing the same thing with the house. His
partner died, and then he told me, "I wish I had let Larry
build this house." It was a beautiful thing. It would
have been finished by now, and less expensive, and
beautiful. But now this young guy says, "Well, when I die
I'll leave it to Stephen." Okay. Well, Stephen wants
wood, all this-- Tell me, what kind of a thing — You know,
like an old housewife that needs this. She wants to tell
you, "I want a Spanish house." You know, that kind of a
thing that I have to put up with. A young punk. I tried
to reason with him. I said, "Look, I'll give you a
beautiful house. You want woods, you don't want metals,
you don't have to." I said, "All I do in the metals is
just the structure. Because it's much more tenable, it's
earthquake proof, better for you. You will stand, and then
I will give you all the woods so you will see wood. And
even I can anodize the aluminum-- You wouldn't even know
that it's aluminum." Yeah. Hmm.
294
LASKEY: Has his friend ever seen your work?
SORIANO: Oh, sure. Well, Lloyd has a building —
LASKEY: That's right, the Adolph's Building —
SORIANO: Even Lloyd said, "My god, this is such a
beautiful place," I'm working. "This could be a beautiful
house." I said, "Well, yes." I said, "Can't you reason
with him?" I said, "You're the boss anyway; this is
yours. Why don't you step on it and do it?" I don't
know. Hmm —
295
TAPE NUMBER: V, SIDE TWO
JULY 21, 1985
LASKEY: I think we will start today by discussing, talking
about your life after you left Southern California in 1953
to come to Tiburon.
SORIANO: Well, it was a very moving and exciting
activity. I was very active, actually, even though I moved
here. And naturally, in this case, I have already--! was
married. Of course I married in Los Angeles-- And I had
already made a family already with three kids, two
daughters and a son, from my ex-wife.
LASKEY: How old were they?
SORIANO: Oh, they were, I think, little tots. One was
about four years and the other one six, and another one was
eight, nine.
LASKEY: And your wife was a photographer. Isn't that
correct?
SORIANO: No, she wasn't. She was a girl from so-called a
"good family" from Los Angeles, a socialite apparently.
Her grandfather was a judge, and her father was an
attorney, and so on. And she was very nice, very
sensitive, intelligent girl in many ways. She was a lovely
person. But then money meant a lot to her, apparently.
And you discover a lot of things when you get married, when
you don't discover before, you know. She had a drinking
296
problem afterwards that I discovered, which I didn't even
know it, you see, that sort of thing. So I put up with
seven and a half years of that. Then after that I said,
"Halt," and I divorced her. And then she was vindictive,
you see, because I was so sick in marriage. And then she
got married twice again after me.
LASKEY: Twice after you?
SORIANO: Yes. And divorced. She was a very disturbed
girl, apparently, with all this. And her background was
very unmoving, apparently. Well, it doesn't matter. I
don't want to talk to you about her. But the fact is that
I moved here; I was very, very busy. I get the Adolph's
job right away, which I did. And it was a very pleasant
area. In those days Tiburon was nothing, just a little--
The terminus of Northwestern Pacific Railroad, that is all
it was. Just the air — a little village. This was not even
a town, or anything.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: Yes. Nothing. There were Black Angus cows
grazing on the hills.
LASKEY: How did you select Tiburon? Why not San
Francisco?
SORIANO: Well, I love this area, this country was
beautiful, and the bay looking-- In fact I looked at
Sausalito-- It was lovely to look at the bay's very
297
beautiful vista, the grounds. And San Francisco was
already a city, a crowded city, which I don't like. I like
to be in a place with — a beautiful place, with gardens, and
this appeals to me. Because I love gardening, and I love
to grow things. And so this was my life. So I decided--
So immediately I got here to Tiburon-- Because I have seen
this before, Marin County was very lovely. And so I bought
a house in Tiburon with the property, with one of the
parcels, where we lived right away. And then I bought
property, the acres of land that I had, which my ex-wife
took everything.
LASKEY: Now, this was on the hills?
SORIANO: Right —
LASKEY: Overlooking —
SORIANO: Overlooking the whole bay. The whole bay,
overlooking Angel Island, from — overlooking from Berkeley,
Richmond, to the Golden Gate Bridge. I have all that view
in front of me.
LASKEY: It must have been beautiful.
SORIANO: It was exquisite, yes. It was one of the most
choicest pieces of land. In fact, even the land was not
even subdivided, the acres I got. Yeah. That is how you
could have choices then, at the time, you see. I was not
unwise. I was very wise. I knew what I was going to do,
which I planned to develop this. And I could have had —
298
with the parcel where I had the house — could have been
developed into units. Which I would have been safe today,
receiving an income, and have my own studio there,
overlooking this lovely bay. But unfortunately it just
didn't work out. So anyway, then I got very active, and I
did- -I was busy planning and possibilities of a lot of work
coming, you see. And then I did the job in Hawaii while I
was here. And I had this proposal for Alcatraz, also from
here, after that.
LASKEY: You might want to talk about that proposal for
Alcatraz, because it was extremely interesting.
SORIANO: It was very nice. Before that I think I told you
that [A.] Cal Rossi — I think we recorded that in my other
tapes .
LASKEY: No, we didn't record it so you may want to talk
about it.
SORIANO: Didn't I? Really?
LASKEY: No, we talked about it at lunch, so it's not on
the tape itself.
SORIANO: Oh, I see. Well, that hundred-story building
that I had — all aluminum--was going to be offices and
apartments for executives. Very elegant. Type of thing
for rich executives. And that was going to be right across
from the Fairmont Hotel in a lot, where the Stanford Court
is now.
299
LASKEY: Right on Nob Hill.
SORIANO: Yes. And I think Allen Temko recommended me for
that job. And Allen Temko is very gracious, very charming
friend. And with his wife Becky; they were both very
wonderful friends. They were the ones who convinced Mr.
Rossi, who owned the property, the Stanford Court, to get
me to do something creative, and I did that. And as I told
you the story with the Alcoa. I was going to-- I designed
this completely of aluminum.
LASKEY: That story about Alcoa is not on the tapes so you
might want to tell it now.
SORIANO: Okay. Well, yes. I immediately saw — You know,
since I'd been interested in metals and aluminum. And I
called Fritz Close, the chairman of the board of Alcoa at
the time, who I met at the Boca Raton conference, creative
conference of aluminum. Well, Alcoa, you know, had-- I
think we discussed it previously.
LASKEY: We did discuss that. We discussed the conference--
SORIANO: Yeah, well, okay. Well, because of that I met
Fritz Close, and therefore I decided to call him. He was
in Pittsburgh, and I said I have a project that I think you
will be interested in, Alcoa will be interested to
participate. It's a very beautiful, hundred stories, and
so on. And he said, "Oh, wonderful, can you fly up?" And
I did fly up with my client. And we met over there, in
300
Pittsburgh, and I showed — I had, oh, about, almost twenty,
thirty chromostats of the project which I had the
preliminary schemes done. All beautifully presented in
color with details. And then at the executive luncheon we
had a big huge table and a blackboard, and I put all these
drawings, the chromostats, there. And Alcoa, Fritz Close,
came in and hugged me and said, "Oh, it's a beautiful
project." And so I even scolded him. I said, "Why didn't
you do an aluminum building of aluminum for Alcoa in San
Francisco instead of that stupid crosses with steel that
Skidmore and Merrill made?" He says, "Well, you know how
those damn architects are." And I said, "Well, it's up to
you people to request that." And I said, "It's shameful to
have — Alcoa to have a steel building and then clad it
artificially with real aluminum facing of sheet metal,
which is ridiculous, isn't it?" And so he laughed, and he
agreed with me, of course. And so, then Hickman at the
time was--I think in a finances — He's the one who was the
go-between for President [John F.] Kennedy and the steel
companies, the big companies, not to raise the prices, and
this and that.
LASKEY: Oh, right.
SORIANO: Hickman was one of the go-between for the
corporations and the government. He sat on the meeting.
And they asked him, "Do you think that will be a good
301
project? And do you think it will be feasible
economically?" "Oh, yes," after he analyzed what I had.
Because I had a tremendous amount of data with computer
analysis and everything, which we did for the tower for
Rossi, which worked beautifully. And so he thought it was
excellent. And so that was agreed upon. Then when we were
flying back, Mr. Rossi just kept hitting me with his
elbow. He says, "You did it, you son-of-a-gun, you did
it." He was so happy that Alcoa was going to participate.
LASKEY: Right.
SORIANO: Yeah. And so we started right away pursuing with
them. Then unfortunately he got mixed up with somebody of
his friends that did works before, some kind of cheap
housing. I don't know what he did. And he made a lot of
money, and then this other fellow right away wanted to put
in a million dollars in a corporation to participate in
that venture, you see. And that killed the thing. I
believe that was the reason the thing didn't go through,
because Alcoa in checking-- They thought they were dealing
only with Rossi, with the property he had at Stanford
Court. But now this other man with another million dollars
comes into the corporation, that was another ball game
which Alcoa did not like.
LASKEY: Yeah.
SORIANO: And so I told Rossi that Alcoa did not want to
302
participate with him, and so on. And as a matter of fact I
told him, I said, "Why do you want to bring this persona
non grata? You have already Alcoa behind you?" Rossi
said, "Well, I made a lot of money with him, you know.
Having a million dollars in the corporation, we can do more
businesses and stuff." So he came in later, about a year
later, after the thing failed; you know, we didn't do
anything. And apparently this man gave a million dollars
to his corporation, and then he took him for half a
million. You see. And he lost that, and he told me sadly
what he did. I said, "Well, there you are." Unfortunately,
you see. We didn't do the beautiful building.
And then when Alcatraz was going to be open and given
to the city, immediately I thought, my god, that will be an
excellent thing. And I devised a world university, an
international world university, by putting that tower,
which was very excellent, the same building I designed.
Except instead of having apartments there and offices, I
was going to have a revolving restaurant bar, television
broadcasting, and all kinds of stuff. And also it would
have been a light source for the aircraft to see, which
would be above the clouds when it ' s foggy in San
Francisco. That will guide the aircraft, you know, at
least to see it from a distance. You know, instead of
having the mediocre tower which they have now to broadcast
303
television, I was going to have that from there. Now at
the time, there were five submittals. One, I was; the
other one was Mayor [Joseph L.] Alioto at the time with H.
L. Hunt. They were working together to make the Alcatraz
Island into a sort of gay nineties type of honky-tonk San
Francisco bit.
LASKEY: H. L. Hunt?
SORIANO: H. L. Hunt, yes. And they were coming here, and
apparently all the supervisors were already bribed to do
that. And they were all for it, supposedly, the H. L.
Hunt-- It was already preset without any evaluation or
judgment whether the proposals were there, even including
mine. I was on television. And some of the others — there
was another proposal from New York — they were going to make
apartments or whatever, I don't know. But there were three
or four, I believe. Well, I think, in my estimation, I
think mine was the most logical and intelligent thing. It
would have been the first of its kind, a structure of all
aluminum. The first of its kind. Never before, I think,
like that was. There was no building made of aluminum
entirely. And I used two feet in diameter aluminum pipes,
with the wall thickness at the base was six inches, thick
of aluminum. Really. And I had the- -was going to do the
recycling of the waters and so on and so on.
LASKEY: How would you have gotten-- What would you have
304
done about transportation?
SORIANO: Transportation didn't matter because you can
always get boats if they want to come there, because there
wasn't an occasion when you have to have students. This
was only for thinkers, for research scientists —
LASKEY: Oh, I see, okay —
SORIANO: Yes. And this was what we were going to do. And
I had backers from different universities. The deans of
several universities were backing me. Even some bankers
were supposed to. And there was a woman, real estate
woman, who was working with me at the time who was very
astute, very nice; Ann Smith was her name. And she was
doing a lot of running around with research and all that.
And even the finance people.
But the tragedy is that, you know, politicians have a
way of muddling things up and pursuing it to fit their own
needs--with any means possible.
And of course there were a lot of — You know, all
these things were seen on television. And I remember KQED,
you, know the educational television-- I remember Mel Wax
was one of the guys who used to comment on the television,
and he commented on the proposals for the Alcatraz. And
all he had to say about mine — He talked about the other,
what the H. L. Hunt was, all this stuff, and all that at
length — And then when he came to mine: "Well, and this
305
is another one of those hundred-story buildings." And he
dropped it like that. That's as much as he said. I mean,
this is the comprehension of these people, which was sad,
really. Instead of to realize what the project was, to
talk about "another one of those hundreds" — as if this is
the whole thing, whether it is a hundred stories or two
stories. And even years later, as a matter of fact, an
appointment was set with Mayor Diane Feinstein. Somebody
told me, says, "Why don't you submit to her? Why don't you
talk to her?" They made an appointment. A friend of mine
knew her very well, since she was a little girl, and said,
"Go and see Miss Feinstein." And by golly, I went there
with my assistant, with all the drawings I had. And in the
fifteen minutes I was there she was interrupted constantly
with the telephone calls. It was an impossible experience.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: Yes. You know, I had the finesse of saying,
"Will you please hold the telephones until I'm finished
with you?" Then when I explained this and I came with a
hundred stories- -I was telling what it would do, how much
money it would bring to the city, you see — she interrupted,
"I don't want any hundred stories, oh, no, oh, no," just
like that, "in San Francisco." I said, "Madame Feinstein,
you come to Tiburon, I'll show you two-story shacks if you
think that makes architecture or makes a city. It has
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nothing to do with whether it's a hundred stories or two
stories in a city. You must look at it. And then
besides, " I said, "how could you understand what I was
telling you with all these interruptions?" In fifteen
minutes, you know, we were constantly interrupted. And
then finally I said, "Well, thank you very much for your
time," and I took — and I told my students, my assistants, I
said, "Let's take the drawings." We went; that's the end
of it. That's the gross, miserable thing of these
politicians, really. And this was very recently- -
LASKEY; This was in 1970?
SORIANO: Some two, three, four years ago, five —
LASKEY: Pretty recently —
SORIANO: Five, six years ago. This was recently. But
before that, when we submitted--that was in '69, I think--
LASKEY: 'Sixty-nine--
SORIANO: Yeah. And there was a big article in the [San
Francisco] Chronicle. My friends got together and they
wanted my project to go. And they had this Marget Larsen--
she deserves credit, Marget Larsen--and with Bob Friedman
who was the- -with the publicity agency. And Marget was a
graphics designer, a very beautiful human being. She's
dead; she died last year, unfortunately. She was such a
beautiful person. She made the graphics for the news--one-
page newspaper ad- -which some manufacturer of clothing- -I
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forget his name- -paid for it.
It was for San Francisco, yeah. And they put coupons
at the end. Marget devised that to send to Secretary [of
Interior Walter J.] Hlckel at the time, to the general
services. Mayor Alioto, and all the supervisors. And the
citizens of San Francisco flooded them with those
coupons. And they put in the ad. They said, "If you feel
like we do, this is the biggest steal since Manhattan
Island from the Indians." And about the project Alioto was
concocting with H. L. Hunt. And immediately the two
supervisors who were in the minority, [Terry] Francois —
which was a black man- -and [Robert] Gonzales- -which was a
Mexican, Hispanic — they were appointed by Mayor Alioto.
Now, these two men were accepting H. L. Hunt, the biggest
reactionary. That was a vision, you can imagine. But
immediately they went to television to say, "Well, gee, we
didn't know the public felt like that, so therefore we are
rescinding our vote." So they were ready to conclude the
next morning with H. L. Hunt and Mayor Alioto 's project,
this honky-tonk gay nineties San Francisco on Alcatraz.
And that was what stopped them. This page ad of Marget
Larsen and — what was his name — this man, manufacturer of--
I can't remember. And that was it. Stops them in their
track. And that's when the Indians get in it. Then the
federal government withdrew the island when they saw there
308
was this kind of dissension. And it was a federal
property, all the islands. You see, they gave it to the
city free.
LASKEY: Ah-hah.
SORIANO: Or for a pittance, I don't know what it was. So
they withdrew the island, that's how the Indians got in.
Yeah. Then they had all the problems.
LASKEY: That's very interesting.
SORIANO: This problem with the Indians. Certainly.
LASKEY: So it's still federal property?
SORIANO: It's still federal, part of the parks and federal
thing. Now they go on boatloads, they charge admission —
LASKEY: Yeah.
SORIANO: To show where Al Capone peed-- This is exactly
what they're doing. This is the kind of a mess that it is
now. And I did pursue that nice thing. And I attended
meetings there, but they are in the hands of all these
incompetent humanity. Because of our democratic process,
you know, everybody seems to know everything, they all have
something to say. Some lady said, "Well, we should have
gazebos for meditation there, " or we should do this-- There
was another woman, as I came to one of the meetings, she
said, "Well, is the meeting on?" I said, "Yes." And then
she had a book. This is a true story. She had a book, and
she said to me, "What do you think of that?" She didn't
309
know who I was or anything. I was just coming out in
disgust; I was leaving the meeting and she was going in.
And she had a color photo, one of the Egyptian murals-- She
says, "How about this? Wouldn't that be nice in there?" I
said, "Good luck," and I left. This is the kind of
mentality. Some other person wanted to have a piece of
sculpture with a diamond, some kind of jewel --shiny stone,
this kind of trivia things. And so — You know what
happened with the Indians when they got to the island.
They were stealing all the copper pipes from the jail. It
was quite a violence, and so finally that was eliminated
and taken off the island by force. And so then-- Now the
island, as I told you, is being shown to the tourists where
Al Capone peed or something. Great culture. Yeah. It's
very interesting, isn't it?
LASKEY: Is there any talk any further about doing, or just
leave it — ?
SORIANO: I doubt it. I doubt it. I sent even to
President [James E.] Carter and Rosalynn [Carter] a
brochure telling them maybe that will be an interesting
thing. I had a nice answers from the general services of
HUD [United States Department of Housing and Urban
Development] offices. "Oh, Mr. Soriano, we'll give you all
the help if there is anything, if we have anybody to--"
Who? I talked to many people but — I went even to the
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chairman of the board of Christian Brothers — somebody
recommended, talked to me. He said, "Mr. Soriano, don't
waste your time with this small brains, small officials.
This can only be done by huge politician and going to be a
credit to him. And if you think it is going to serve him,
then they can do it. Otherwise, those little politicians,
you're wasting your time." Like Mayor Alioto, Miss
Feinstein, and all that. Yeah. That's the problem.
So, then from there on, you know, the chaotic
conditions of the world and — Just up and down. You know,
recession, the — when was it?--the wars we had — what was
it? --in Korea, and Vietnam — All these things affect the
building industry, architecture. Topped by the nostalgia
of what a house should be. Therefore, I have all the
strikes against me.
LASKEY: Well, isn't it the nostalgia, or what you call the
nostalgia, that probably has hurt you more than any of
these things?
SORIANO: Absolutely. That certainly is, plus with the
economic condition, the recession up and down, the building
costs, this manipulations by all these individuals, you
know. The Arabs with their oil made a chaos of the whole
economy of the world. Not Just the Arabs, but the Arabs
with their corporations which work with them, naturally.
They can-- They made the biggest chaos of the whole
311
world. We are still suffering because of that. And that
is why all the real estate is so damn expensive. It's due
to all of that. Everything went up. It doesn't seem to
be, but it is because of it.
So it's an insanity that exists all the way through,
and we have to be victims of that — How can you do anything
intelligent? I've just sent so many brochures all over, as
I told you. I'll show you the thing — Even to the king of
Saudi Arabia, and other places even before when things were
amicable then. And nothing. And the Shah of Iran-- You
know all this. But circumstances, the timing's wrong.
LASKEY: I think we've mentioned before with the high cost
of real estate in the United States today, it's surprising--
at least it's surprising to me — that your idea of
prefabricated aluminum houses — or prior to that the steel
houses — prefabricated housing hasn't caught on, hasn't been
more successful.
SORIANO: Well, because of that, because they don't do it.
Nobody does it. I did this eleven units in Hawaii, and
this purely because I found the client through a girlfriend
of mine that I met at the airport in Honolulu. And we were
both leaving-- She lived in Hawaii and I was coming back to
San Francisco. She was very charming. She says, "Here's
my telephone [number]; call me when you come back." And so
a few months later I called her; she wasn't there, she was
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in the States. Well, I was going there again. And then a
Japanese fellow who was a friend of hers was taking care of
her house and her car. And he said, "Oh you're a friend of
Judy--" I forgot her name. And, "Yes." He said, "What do
you do?" I said, "I'm an architect." "Oh, really? Come
and have lunch with me." And then, "I have a piece of
property in Maui. Maybe you can advise me." And this is
how I did the job. And so I built the aluminum houses.
LASKEY: Really!
SORIANO: Yeah. That's just purely circumstances like
that . That ' s what happens . And he was very nice and he
said, "Well, I'll help you, and he was very amiable. I
helped him get financing, I helped him even get credit from
the different material people. And it took [me] to do all
of this. I had it fabricated and shipped it-- I'll show
you the pictures — Even I have been there when they were
pouring concrete. And so I took this effort and I-- You
should see the meticulous plans that I made. I mean, the
tons of the details. And I knew what I was doing. This is
first time to dare fabricate and ship —
LASKEY: They were shipped from the United States —
SORIANO: To Hawaii. And erected, assembled there. Yes.
LASKEY: And it was still less expensive to do it that way
than —
SORIANO: Of course. Because I had sugar workers. They
313
came after the work in the sugar fields and used to come
and erect them. They didn't even need any expert
craftsmen, as I told you, because I think it was so well
detailed. All they had to do is just bolt them and just
put them together under my direction. Yeah. We needed
very, very few craftsmen that needed training, except the
plumbing and the electric, which they did. But I ran the
whole show, again. Again, I took the bull by the horn. I
ran the thing. Otherwise, that would not even have been.
Now, the interesting pathos of this is again beautiful
structures. All of a sudden my Japanese boy was interested
in making money, like everybody else. Money, money, is
always. So he found somebody from Holland that came in,
and he bought that. He asked him to — if he could buy
them. He bought them, and he put tiki roofs over that with
neon signs. And he converted my aluminum housing to a
whorehouse and a gambling joint.
LASKEY: Your housing development?
SORIANO: Yes. It was ruined. That's what happened. And
so you can imagine the disappointment again. And you know,
you keep wondering. I said, "What is all the effort, all
this things?" And then my client — listen to this — he had a
large piece of property. We used that. And I said, as he
wanted to sell the other, I said, "Don't sell it; keep
it. This is a lovely thing, maybe someday you can develop
314
this into possibly a hotel, or possibly something else."
And he called me about three, four years ago from Las
Vegas. He went there to gamble, apparently. He said,
"Raphael, how are you? You made me a rich man, you
know." [laughter] Yes, exactly that. And then he told me
that story, that he sold that piece of property to someone
who's building hotels there. And he sold the other one to
this Dutchman who ruined the place. I think he kept one
house for himself to live in, whatever-- Not my client, but
the man who bought the whole thing. Yeah, that is the
pathos of life, and that is the tragedy. It really hurts
me inside when I see all these efforts, all these trials--
then what? --and my efforts ruined.
LASKEY: And not to be able to continue to do it must be
very difficult —
SORIANO: It is.
LASKEY: Not to be able to build — That was twenty years
ago that those were built.
SORIANO: In '63. And I have been pursuing it, and then
stop, and then I still am pursuing it. Yeah.
LASKEY: You built a couple of houses here, in Mill Valley,
for the builder [Frank] McCauley. What happened there?
SORIANO: Well, McCauley was — It was an interesting story
there. I met him in Los Angeles. And he used to like what
I did, and then all of a sudden something happened to
315
him. Something with his wife, some tragic thing — And then
he came over here, and he wanted to do some business if I
could find a lot. We found two lots right in Mill
Valley. He bought them, and I said, "Okay, I'll help you,"
and I did the same thing. I helped him build them. And
they were just beautiful homes, exquisite homes.
LASKEY: And they are certainly beautiful from the
photographs .
SORIANO: Yes, but then he sold them, with a builder, you
know. He sold them, and then with the inflation prices,
then they keep going — from sell, somebody else bought them
to make profit, sold them again, again. Everybody else
started adding their own little misconceptions. And now
you should see , I'm ashamed even to see the way they are .
Some hippies live there, in one of them. It's
incomprehensible what they do, neglect, because they don't
give a damn. You know, they rent them or sell them, and
they're willing to rent them to somebody else.
LASKEY: Well, when they were built, were they built with
the idea that possibly they would be developed into a
series — ?
SORIANO: Oh, yes, everything was, yes. But this poor man
had some tragic life, which I don't want to even tell you
what it is —
LASKEY: Okay.
316
SORIANO: And apparently this is what happened-- I
couldn't — But nevertheless, this was an idea that I was
always thinking and developing and trying to pursue-- There
were a lot of people who were interested in that. And I
had tons of correspondence with Kaiser Aluminum, even to
build this, with several other people. I can show you tons
of correspondence.
LASKEY: Well, all of your works were published in the
important architectural journals. Your name was known.
I'm surprised that builders, other builders in other parts
of the country at some — didn't pick up on these ideas. You
know, it isn't that your works weren't there. That's what
is so surprising.
SORIANO: Well, no. As a matter of fact, didn't you see in
the write-up of the bicentennial what they say? Did you
read what they —
LASKEY: No, because I was just looking at the picture
yesterday —
SORIANO: Well, I'll tell you, I'll show you. You read it,
and you can put it in there. I think it's in here, and —
Please, this is the beautiful copy; don't put your fingers
too much on it. Read in the — in here, just about towards
the last, you see, he says something about the influences I
have had.
LASKEY: It talks about influence. What I was talking
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about was your own--you being able to build the houses.
You contacted —
SORIANO: No, wait a minute. You say something else. It's
amazing why In other parts of the world, the country, you
mentioned that.
LASKEY: Yeah, I said they didn't contact you.
SORIANO: Well, yeah, but read there, read that. Read It
aloud .
LASKEY: Well, "A few of his designs went beyond the
prototypical stage. The logic of his modular structures
Influenced many similar developments In other parts of the
world."
SORIANO: Exactly. You see.
LASKEY: But you're still not working, which Is my point.
SORIANO: Exactly. Well, they don't call me, so they
Imitate me or they go, you know — One client I had said
this to me one day, he said, "Raphael, don't be a fool,
don't be naive." He said, "It Isn't how much you know.
It's who you know." It Is a series of circumstances. You
see, apparently the world Is very strange. I mean, in
medicine, or another, if there is somebody that is quite a
top, they go to him, isn't it? They call him. But in
architecture, it is not the same thing. In architecture
they all-- If somebody they get, somebody-- "Can you make
something like that?" Or Imitate, you know, if they have a
318
friend. Instead of calling me. And many of them are
scared-- They think I'm very expensive because of my
reputation. That's another strike I have against me, you
see. And yet, I don't; I charge the same thing as
anybody. In fact, less; I give more services than they
do. Now, when I did a house for [Joseph] Eichler, you see,
that first house for him — It's an interesting story. The
house was published, and it was exhibited for the heart--
The proceeds to go to the heart [American Heart
Association] . For a few months it was open to the public
to see it. And you should see the comments that U.S. Steel
put- -wrote there, pro and con on the house. Many people
asked, "Well, why aren't there more houses like that
built? They're so beautiful. They're so clean. There is--
I cannot see that any spiders will come into these" --this
metal beams that I have. With the wood that Eichler was
doing — You see the wood beam cracks? The spiders love to
nest in there. That's the comments of some of these
neighbors who had Eichler houses. They came to see it.
LASKEY: Ah-hah.
SORIANO: They said, "The ones with wood that we are living
in, the spiders all over the place because of the cracked
beams of wood." You see, those big timbers like that, they
have cracks --when they dry--
LASKEY: Right.
319
SORIANO: When they dry. And then the spiders collect
there. This seems to be easy to keep clean. I'll give you
a little thing like that, and you'll see what they say.
And they keep asking, "Why aren't more projects like that
built?" They kept asking that. Well, the answer is very
obvious: ignorance, and the propagation is done by these
imbeciles, by these ignorant builders and developers and
bankers, who are familiar with whatever they are familiar
themselves. Anything else, this to them maybe does not
appeal as homes. The simplicity and clarity scares them,
maybe. Yeah. Nothing to do with me, I can assure you. Or
the house is not good. On the contrary, they are the most
livable houses. You ask anybody who lived in my house.
They loved them. I have letters from clients. Yeah.
So. You give me the answer, I don't know. I know the
answer exactly what I told you — It's the ignorance of
humanity, and also that of the builders and the architects
themselves. My colleagues don't do that. They do the
other thing. Therefore, they contaminated the taste of
people by example of what they're doing. So the result is
people think houses should look like that, houses are like
that. Not like this, like the ones I do. And people are
confused. People are like sheep: you can take them one
way or the other. Most of them don't think. Again, I will
quote Alain. He said, "Most people are like bones and a
320
stomach. There is nothing else." [laughs]
LASKEY: Bones and a stomach.
SORIANO: Yeah. So what else could I tell you? I don't
know. It's exasperating, really. Maybe because I'm too
severe in my lectures, in my criticism. I am very frank.
And open. But I think I read to you the — what [Felix]
Candela said.
LASKEY: Yes. Yes, you did.
SORIANO: You see, depending, those who are sincere and
serious, they said, "With a stupendous conference [lecture]
which you gave us which was very controversial and friendly
at the same time," you see. In other words, it wasn't
scared-- I wasn't — Some people think, "Oh, well, you don't
like — you've lost everybody. You've lost--" Well, rightly
so. I have to say if I don't say that [Michael] Graves is
doing wrong things, what can I say? How would people
know? Or [Philip C] Johnson is wrong in doing this armpit
junk, on top of the skyscraper, a sixty-story building.
Therefore-- Then how would that-- How do we make sense?
How would they know that the errors that are being
committed through my colleagues if you don't mention their
names? Yes?
LASKEY: Right.
SORIANO: Then they will be confused. They say, "Well,
everything is all right." Yeah. Architects are doing
321
their own thing.
LASKEY: You know, we've made reference to your feelings
about painting.
SORIANO: Yes.
LASKEY: I don't think we've discussed it in real depth,
and how it applies to our architecture, and how that makes
your architecture different from the standard architecture
of the day.
SORIANO: Well, okay.
322
TAPE NUMBER: VI, SIDE ONE
JULY 21, 1985
LASKEY: Your attitude about painting and how it relates to
your philosophy of architecture.
SORIANO: Well, do you think it relates to architecture?
LASKEY: Painting?
SORIANO : Yes .
LASKEY: I think how you feel about painting relates to how
you feel about architecture.
SORIANO: What do you mean by "how you feel"?
LASKEY: You're not — You don't like painting as one of the
art forms .
SORIANO: You mean you ask — You're telling me that, or
what?
LASKEY: No, I'm asking you that.
SORIANO: No, I'm asking you.
LASKEY: No, that's what I've understood you to say, is
that you feel that painting is not--I don't want to
misquote you, but--that it's a mythology, it's a retelling
of mythologies. And that we don't learn, really learn from
painting; we just accept other people's mythologies. And
that it ' s not a legitimate art form in the sense that music
is--or a universal art form.
SORIANO: Do you think so? Do you agree with that?
LASKEY: No, I don't.
323
SORIANO: You don't agree with that.
LASKEY: No.
SORIANO: You think painting should be part of
architecture?
LASKEY: I think that — No, I think of painting as a
legitimate art form. And I don't see it necessarily just
as mythological or myth- telling, and therefore, I don't see
that the same way that you see it.
SORIANO : Yes .
LASKEY: But that doesn't — You know — But I'm interested
in, since you do see it that way — I don't see
architectural styles then as necessarily just mythological
or — I can like other styles, or like traditional styles.
I can like what you do and I can like modern styles. I can
also like traditional styles. I don't necessarily see them
as just holding back or perpetuating antique ideas. Is
that fair?
SORIANO: Well, I'll tell you what — No, it is not very
clear yet, but I will continue in one second, excuse me.
LASKEY: Okay.
SORIANO: Well, I asked you that question because I want to
know your idea. Then I will amplify myself, my thinking,
on that score. The reason that I said the words that I
said about painting is because I believe there is a certain
amount of confusion that exists in the arts, supposedly.
324
quotation, "arts." You know? And you mentioned you like
or I don't like, and then you mention style. What do you
mean by style? What's your concept of a style? What does
that mean? I'm really-- This is interesting dialogue. I'm
asking you. And I'll tell you afterwards my thinking on
that .
LASKEY: I don't recall how I used the word style. What
did I say? Mostly I was asking your ideas on painting and
how you related that theory to architecture. On
architectural style, I'm using it in the most common sense,
that if you talk about neo-Spanish colonial revival or
neoclassical, or International modern — which are really
just words that help us all talk about the same thing that
are identifying — If I tell you that a building is Spanish
colonial revival, you basically know what I'm talking about
and I don't have to go through a description. It's a
shorthand .
SORIANO: Do you think I will know if this is Spanish
revival?
LASKEY: Yeah, I think you will know. I think you will
know.
SORIANO: How do you know that? How do you know that?
LASKEY: Because you're an architect and you've studied
architecture, and you lived in Southern California and it's
a kind of short-hand that I assume you would know. Now, I
325
have — If I was talking to someone who wasn't Interested in
architecture, then no, they wouldn't know. It would depend
on who I was talking to whether I'd use that term. But if
I was talking to someone about architectural styles, that's
what I would mean by a style. It would be a preagreed upon
determination of a period. If I talk about renaissance, I
assume that the person I ' m talking to will know what the
renaissance style is; it's a period and it looks a certain
way. And that it's a short-hand that we've agreed upon to
facilitate communication in a particular area. The same
way with painting styles. If you talk about abstract
expressionism or minimalism or landscape, or English
portraiture as opposed to American portraiture, then we all
assume a general class that we're talking about the same
thing . That ' s what I mean by style .
SORIANO: I see. Well, does that give you understanding,
really?
LASKEY: Yeah.
SORIANO: Does that give you understanding?
LASKEY: Understanding-- Give me understanding of
describing a particular thing. It describes something.
And I know then I can know basically what we're talking
about. It clarifies.
SORIANO: What? What will clarify actually? What does
clarify — What would it clarify?
326
LASKEY: What I'm talking about at the time.
SORIANO: Yeah. Is that — ? You see. Is It a precise
understanding you have, or is it an abstract understanding?
LASKEY: It depends on what you're talking about at the
moment. You can talk about a classification, or you can be
talking a specific building. If you're talking about the
Palace Ruccelai in Florence, and you're talking about a
renaissance building, then you're talking about a specific
renaissance building. If you talk about renaissance
buildings in general, then it's an abstraction.
SORIANO: But then there are variations — aren't there? --in
those buildings? Even in the renaissance.
LASKEY: Oh, of course.
SORIANO: Then how do you clarify? Then you call them all
together in the so-called adjective of renaissance. Does
that give you any understanding? Or give you an abstract
understanding?
LASKEY: It gives you — Well, again, if you're just talking
about all buildings, you know, built from 1420 to 1480--or
whatever it is in Italy — then you'll have an abstraction.
And you know they're going to be essentially this tall, and
they're going to have these kinds of windows, basically —
SORIANO : Maybe .
LASKEY: — and —
SORIANO: Maybe.
327
LASKEY: But that's the short-hand that I'm talking
about. And there will be differences, but that's —
SORIANO: There are In the renaissance buildings or In any
kind of building, let's say, where they use tremendous
amount of sculpture, and ornamentation. Is that possible
to talk about architecture? Or Is It a mlxed-up affair
between the arts — so-called painting, sculpture, and
architecture mixed together. Now, what rationale can you
get from all these three mixtures and then talk about
architecture? Is It possible to do that? That Is, to
communicate between us. Can you?
LASKEY: You mean — Are you asking If It's possible to
separate the sculpture and the painting from the building?
SORIANO: I'm asking —
LASKEY: Yeah, I'm not sure what your question is.
SORIANO: No, I'm asking actually whether you can really
understand architecture with the admixture of painting,
sculpture, and architecture. Or I will say-- I will put it
another way: is painting and sculpture architecture? And
if so, then it's like architecture; and if it isn't, then
what is it? And why do we mix them together?
LASKEY: To create an environment would be my-- And I don't
know that that would be your answer, but it — Again, if
we're talking renaissance architecture, there, we're
creating a total thing. I mean, they did it, I assume- -I
328
don't really know — to create a total thing of beauty by
their terms. They constructed a structure which is what
you'd call architecture. They embellished it with what I
think would still be considered — The embellishments aside
from the painting, the sculpture, I think, could be
architectural--architectural structures. But they're
embellishments. Painting, I think, is something aside from
architecture. It's something applied on to the
architecture. It embellishes it, but it's not part of the
architecture .
SORIANO: How about sculpture?
LASKEY: I think that sculpture — It depends. Are you
talking about--like what?--the pediments and window frames,
or are you talking about structures — ?
SORIANO: I'm talking about —
LASKEY: --or statues added on, you know, actual additions
to it? Are you talking — ?
SORIANO: No, you bring it down to a specific building or
specific-- I'm talking now in general, since we are talking
in big understanding that the human beings will
understand. Generally, as a style, as you mentioned
before, styles are this and that, that we can communicate
one with the other, then you will even listen. You brought
in the environment, and I just kept wondering whether
actually — Aren't we using just plain words which mean
329
absolutely nothing, which will not give us any kind of
understanding, nor even with the word aesthetic or question
of beauty?
LASKEY: I don't think so. I think if you want to carry it
that far you can. But I think in the matter of getting on
with life and simplifying things, if I'm — If I use a term
like a renaissance building, I think that you know what I'm
talking about, that you get an image of what it is —
SORIANO: Maybe you know, but I may not know exactly the
same thing you're talking about. Maybe abstractly we may
know, yes. But abstraction is knowledge? Abstraction?
Something abstract? I can abstract-- Say that the sun is a
male virile torch. They have done similar things like that
in the past.
LASKEY : But that ' s not what we ' re talking about when we ' re
talking about- -
SORIANO: But yes, symbolism, yes, we're talking. We're
talking about that very same thing.
LASKEY: Not really.
SORIANO : No?
LASKEY: I don't think so. I think you're making it more
complicated in that sense than what we're really trying to
say. I mean, we're simply trying to, to communicate in a
simple way.
SORIANO: Exactly.
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LASKEY: And If you're complicating-- You can abstract
anything down to a point of — You can argue that this table
doesn't exist, and you could probably argue It validly.
People have. But why bother? You know the table's there- -
SORIANO: No, no.
LASKEY: It exists. And the same thing was what we're
talking about, or what I was talking about, was styles.
You can argue that there aren't any two buildings that are
the same, or whatever. But I'm simply saying that for
purposes of simple communication, that there is a
difference between an International Style modern building
and a renaissance building. And that for ease of — If I'm
talking to someone and we're talking about architecture,
then the person is probably going to know basically what's
being said. That people are communicating with these
terms, generally, they're saying the same things to each
other, if you're talking to people who know about the
subject. If you talk about painting styles, it's the same
thing. You can talk about, you know, the Dutch school, or
the baroque, or the renaissance.
SORIANO: Excuse me. [tape recorder off] All right, this
is good, I'm glad I caught it in time, by golly; otherwise
it would have gone dead and I would have been in the same
boat you were.
LASKEY: Good.
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SORIANO: Damn battery. I believe that's what the whole
cause of that, that defective battery.
LASKEY: Well, good.
SORIANO: And, well, in answer to all these things we just--
I asked you these questions purposely to clarify and to
elucidate a bit on my thinking about the subject. First of
all, you see, I will ask you another interesting
question. And then we'll come back to the subject of
architecture and the arts. A human being, just a human
being, you're born a person. Now, do you call that a clear
statement of nature? You're born already; you can see
beautifully as a human being.
LASKEY: Is that a clear statement of nature?
SORIANO: That's what I'm saying. Is that a clear
statement of nature? In other words, this was-- This
conception and the resultant of the union of two species,
two individuals, they produce-- They procreate another
individual of themselves. Now, would you call that a clear
statement? In other words, it's understandable,
intelligible to everybody else who will see that baby.
LASKEY: That the baby exists? Yeah.
SORIANO: I mean, naturally they exist because they're
crying and moving their legs; we know it exists. But in
other words, everybody understands it's a baby. That's
something that's happened, isn't it? Okay. Now, if you
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take painting right away-- You start painting his face,
making his eyelashes with rouge, and blue, whatever you
want; the mother's decided to have a little fanciful
thing. Would that clarify the individual? Or will it
complicate the individual?
LASKEY: I don't know.
SORIANO: What do you mean you don't know?
LASKEY: I mean, if it doesn't —
SORIANO: Well, no, no, no. We know very well when we see
a baby, it's a baby.
LASKEY: Yeah. If I see a baby with paint on its face,
it's still a baby. It's just got paint on its face.
SORIANO: But then, what else do you ask in your mind when
you see all of a sudden he's been painted with rouge and
black eyelashes with mascara and blue, you know. What
would you — come to your mind?
LASKEY: I don't know.
SORIANO: You mean you wouldn't ask anything? A brand new
baby. I'm talking about a little infant, just first born,
beautifully.
LASKEY: What are you saying?
SORIANO: Well, I'm asking you, what will come to your mind
when you see a baby all of a sudden that ' s been painted
with all this makeup?
LASKEY: Well, I think what you want me to say is why
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would- -
SORIANO: No, no, no, no, no, no.
LASKEY: — they do that, is what you're getting at.
SORIANO : No .
LASKEY: But the thing Is, I don't know why they would do
It. There may be a reason for It.
SORIANO: No.
LASKEY: It may be, it would depend on what the situation
was that I can't know.
SORIANO: No. I didn't ask you that at all. I didn't ask
you to say anything. I'm asking your reaction —
LASKEY: I have no idea what my reaction would be because
it would depend on the situation that I was in when I saw
it.
SORIANO: Oh, I see.
LASKEY: You see?
SORIANO: In other words, suppose you just happen to be
there .
LASKEY: Be where?
SORIANO: Where the child is. All of a sudden you saw this
Infant, painted with rouge and the lipstick, big lipstick,
and blue paint. What will come to your mind? Let's put it
that way. Nothing?
LASKEY: I just can't Imagine it, is what it is, because I
just, you know —
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SORIANO: Because they don't do that to the babies, do
they?
LASKEY: Not babies that I know. There may be societies
that do. So —
SORIANO: All right, if you haven't seen other ways--
Suppose you have seen one like that. Something will come
to your mind to ask, "Why did they do that?" And the very
fact that you asked the question, "Why did they do that?"--
It shows very well there is something weird or something
queer--any word that you want to use — you keep asking, "I
wonder why was that done?" Yeah. It had nothing to do
with the baby, of course, all this rouge, lipstick, anymore
than the lipstick that you girls put on the face. Even
bring it down to you girls. If you put lipstick, and you
put on the mascara, does that give you any kind of
environmental clarity to you?
LASKEY: It makes — It can make you feel good. It--
SORIANO: Personally.
LASKEY: Personally it can, if it's done right. It
improves your opinion of yourself or how you look. It —
Yeah, it does something to you.
SORIANO: Yeah, naturally, because you girls have been
brainwashed to put on all that stuff. It's correct?
LASKEY: It does something to men, too, I mean--
SORIANO: No, to me it doesn't. Actually, now, this is a
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big generalization we think. But to me, actually. It
repels me. I see you don't have any lipstick; you don't
have anything on your face. That means you have certain
ideas that the fact — What do you need that for? Here I
am, an individual, you have a lovely face, and that's it.
Why do you need to put all this junk on? Some people think
they need it, yes? Correct?
LASKEY: But it makes them feel better when they do it.
SORIANO: That's correct for them. I don't deny anybody to
do anything they like to do themselves, for themselves.
Now, as a human being, as a creative person, if you do
something for public consumption, don't you think that's a
very serious thing to consider? If you paint, or if you do
something that doesn't belong there, it will be quite
questionable. And you have to be very careful and see, to
ask the question, "What am I doing with this? Why am I
doing this?" The same thing as I brought the baby. That
it will be the question that anybody who will see this
paint will say, "I wonder — " After you leave that, you're
not going to insult the mother or father and say, "I wonder
why did they do that to that poor baby?" That will be a
question I would ask. And I'm sure you would, and many
people would.
You see, again, this is the danger. We have been so
contaminated with this behavioral pattern of doing anything
336
laissez-faire, doing anything I like for likes and
dislikes, for aesthetics, for beauty in your concept. That
never communicates. This is my theory, that these
artificially applied things never communicate anything.
And it is done by some individuals who thought like Madison
Avenue, Hollywood, to sell you all this fantastic billions
of dollars of cosmetics. They keep advertising all the
time to make you look like a young fifteen-year-old-girl by
putting on all this lipstick. And you find many ladies at
the age of seventy putting all this pancake makeup, and
then they don't realize when they go out in the sun you see
the creases in their faces, even much more magnified with
the pancake. You see, they don't see it, but in the
mirror, they put that thinking that that is beautiful.
That's fine for them. I don't say. But they have been
brainwashed, you see. And this is what I'm saying. Now,
coming back to architecture, I asked the question, "Is
architecture and painting and sculpture the same thing?"
Or are they really part of the same species, anymore than
the paint and the rouge and the lipstick that you put on a
baby? Or is it an artificiality imposed on the baby? And
the same thing, I will ask the question of this painting
and sculpture as an artificiality imposed on
architecture. Now, we can elaborate this farther. Ask the
question why people painted. Go back. Let's go back to
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Lascaux, Altamira caves. Yeah? Okay. Lascaux and
Altamira, they used to, society used to live in caves and
how many — What was society in a cave? How many people can
live in a cave? Five thousand at the most? Ten thousand
people? At least I haven't seen a cave that long, that--
There are not many. Now, the result would be that society
was very tiny, tiny, tiny. Now, you go to Mexico City,
there's seventeen million people in one city. It's a big
cave, isn't it? Seventeen million people. What is society
there? It's a big conglomerate — isn't it?--with a
tremendous amount of complexities. Now, you cannot do
today, say, in a city of Mexico with seventeen million
people, what the primitive people of fifty thousand years
ago in the caves — small related cult of the caves — what
they did there. They used to paint the caves, yes; inside,
you find all these bulls, you know —
LASKEY: Right, of course.
SORIANO: You have seen those drawings, didn't you? Did
you ask the question why did they do that? I ' m sure you
have read, maybe.
LASKEY: Yeah.
SORIANO: Why did they do that? Why did they paint? And
what subject was the painting. What did they paint? I'm
asking you.
LASKEY: Oh, I'm sorry. Well, they painted ritual.
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basically.
SORIANO: Okay, okay. Now, what did they paint? What's
the subject?
LASKEY: Bulls. The hunting of bulls, the hunting of
horses, animals, and the importance of animals —
SORIANO: That's right, to their society. Could that be
applicable today? Suppose in Mexico City we keep painting
bulls and horses in our buildings. Suppose we did that.
What would you think of it? As a mural. Suppose I want to
paint bulls and stuff in a building.
LASKEY: In a mural? It wouldn't — I mean —
SORIANO: I'm asking you honestly.
LASKEY: No, I know, and I — You know, if somebody did a
mural, built a new building and did a mural in the lobby
that had bulls and horses in it, I'd probably think it was
fine.
SORIANO: Why would you think it was fine? Wouldn't you
question it, why do they paint?
LASKEY: I would have to see the mural, of course, but I
think —
SORIANO: Well, forget this thing about the quality of
it. What I'm talking about —
LASKEY: But it wouldn't bother me to see a mural with
bulls and horses in it.
SORIANO: You wouldn't question it?
339
LASKEY: No. I don't think so. I mean, if it were a bank
building and--
SORIANO: You would accept that.
LASKEY: — and it was in Mexico City. They still have bull
fights in Mexico City. It's still a part of what goes on,
it's part of their culture. I, no, I wouldn't question it
particularly. Now, if they went around doing frescoes on
the walls, I would think that was sort of interesting. I
don't think it would bother me, if they put horses and
bulls. I don't know. I'm trying to think of where I might
question it. But I don't think I would think too much
about it. I might question the quality of the mural.
SORIANO: How would you judge the quality of the mural?
LASKEY: Whether I liked it or not.
SORIANO: Oh, well, is that — ?
LASKEY: I mean, that's all I'm saying, is whether it's
well done, yeah.
SORIANO: Is that how you evaluate things, by your likes
and dislikes?
LASKEY: Some things. Painting, yes.
SORIANO: Do you evaluate the workings of this microphone
because you like it or you don't like it?
LASKEY: I evaluate the workings of that whether it works
or not.
SORIANO: But not because you like it.
340
LASKEY: When It works, I like it; and when it doesn't
work, I don't like it.
SORIANO: That's correct. Okay, in other words, it's a
question of performance, isn't it? Especially this tiny
little thing that we're wearing, which is a little half an
inch. Even less maybe.
LASKEY: You see, we like these.
SORIANO: Well, because they work well, don't they?
LASKEY: If they didn't work we wouldn't like them.
SORIANO: That's correct.
LASKEY: The same way with the mural.
SORIANO: Okay. All right. That's good. You bring up a
good point. That means it has to work. What does it mean,
that mural that works? What does that imply?
LASKEY: But it goes back again, I think, whether you like
it or you don't like it, because it —
SORIANO: Oh, no, no, no, no.
LASKEY: Really, it gets back down-- You can use different
terms.
SORIANO: We said you didn't like this because-- You say if
it works, the performance of it is the thing that makes you
like it or not. And I'm asking the question. When you see
this mural of horses in a lobby, this modern building, a
skyscraper with automatic elevators with electronic
computers- -pop, pop, pop, pop — you find a whole bunch of a
341
mural of horses. Then you will ask, "Is it function--? Is
it working? For what? What is it doing?" Would you ask
that question?
LASKEY: No. Because it doesn't bother me.
SORIANO: Okay.
LASKEY: And I think that's where we're different. And
that's why we're interviewing you, because you do have
different ideas on this.
SORIANO: No question.
LASKEY: And I think that that's-- I think that your
attitudes on this are extremely interesting, and that's why
I brought it up, why I want you to talk about it. Because
I think that, well, as I said earlier when you asked me, I
like painting, so I really would judge the mural of horses
on whether I liked it or not; whether I thought it was well
done — whatever style it was in--if I thought they were good
horses, or they were abstract horses, or what, because by
definition I like murals. Now, your feelings are much
deeper about paintings and your reaction to it would be
very different from mine. And that's why I want you to
talk about your reaction to it.
SORIANO: Yeah, I would. That's the reason. The reason I
brought this up is because, to illustrate the further point
we've been discussing all this whole evening and the last
two days--three days. That actually I think the biggest
342
problem in our society is because of this lack of
communication, that because we are taking this as a
personal likes and dislikes. I think this is the tragedy
that has occurred in our society today, as you were
complaining, with all this decadence, isn't it? In music
and everything, you were complaining that two, three days,
two days ago with — We went over that. Now, the reason is
because everybody accepts anything, that anything goes.
You know, I do my own thing, that type of thing, okay.
Now, therefore, we don't question it. And that's why I ask
you. Wouldn't you question why they have horses in that
lobby? And you said, "No, I like it." But the answer you
gave me was, again, that personal thing that everybody else
does. So that means here we have a very personal
anarchism — anything goes then. Well, I like, so what?
Anybody else-- So, I like it, or somebody else says, "I
don't like it." Okay. Well, that doesn't have any
significance in the total societal, really, understanding
of the issues today in the twentieth century with the
tremendous amount of knowledge we have. Consequently, you
have to question everything. If you don't question
critically with a critical eye, then you're accepting;
you've become the sheep. As we said before, most human
beings are sheep. You can be swayed one way or the
other. They don't think. Therefore, you find the biggest
343
morons that shout loudly make billions in music, and a
serious composer can't even sell one record. He will
starve to death, yes. And this is what's happening. I
think they have to be more critical and question why. I
ask the question, "Why do we do this?" And I think an
architect, or any type of endeavor, the first thing is he
should ask--even if you put one line on the drawing board —
he should ask, "What am I doing with this line?" What this
line is doing. Is it a question that I like it? I like to
make a line? It has nothing to do with it. Because
society doesn't give a damn that you make one line or ten
lines. What do they care? But society cares if you are
doing this line for society. Then they'll ask you, say,
"What are you doing? I ask you to design me whatever, and
you're showing one line." I said, "Well, what is this?"
He'll ask you this question. And I think this is where the
problem really lies. We have to question, we have to be
very serious, and we have to be very, very critical.
Yes. And the question of aesthetics doesn't enter into it
at all. As we said even with the microphone. If it works,
I like it; if it doesn't, you don't.
LASKEY: Right.
SORIANO: Exactly. If it works, it's beautiful, call it
that. If it doesn't work, it's an ugly thing. Yes.
LASKEY: Exactly.
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SORIANO: So this Is the area really where we have the big
problem, I believe. That's why I don't think the sculpture
and painting can be mixed with architecture, because
originally it started out as part of the ritual, and they
start — You go back to your renaissance then. From the
cave drawings we Jump to the renaissance. All right? What
did we find in the renaissance?
LASKEY: The church.
SORIANO: All right. That's the dominant thing, isn't it?
LASKEY: Right.
SORIANO: You find the only buildings that were really
meaningful and studied carefully were the churches, built
well. But where the people lived, all around the churches,
it's chaos, isn't it?
LASKEY: Well, except for the very rich. The palaces —
SORIANO: Forget- -
LASKEY: — the palazzos.
SORIANO: Yeah, well, palazzi were fortresses to begin
with. All the palaces were fortresses for the gangsters.
Remember, the pirates were the biggest gangsters before,
and after they conquered areas, enslaved people, then
became kings and princes and dukes and counts. Therefore,
they built palaces. What were those palaces? They were
fortresses, actually. They built these fortresses,
chateaux, they were fortresses. Why? To defend
345
themselves, their own clan, in huge acres of land. They
didn't want another gangster, another pirate, to come and
conquer. Therefore, they had these as a protective
fortress. I had a woman come to me one day, she wanted a
chateau, a French chateau. And I said, "Well, are you
French, madame?" She said, "No." And I said, "Why do you
want a French chateau?" She said, "Because I like it."
That's exactly the thing that she said. You like it.
LASKEY: She wanted you to design her a French chateau?
SORIANO: A French chateau, yes. And I said, "Well, do you
know — " I see you're laughing at this, but yet you didn't
laugh when you were saying to me that you like the horses.
LASKEY: Well, just that it seems incongruous that--
SORIANO: Well, naturally.
LASKEY: — someone would come to Raphael Soriano for a
French chateau.
SORIANO: Well, wouldn't that be the same incongruity
somebody to say I want you to paint a mural of horses on a
brand new skyscraper with modern equipment?
LASKEY: If they said it to you. They could say it to
somebody else.
SORIANO: Wait a minute.
LASKEY: But now I'm talking about you in particular as
doing a chateau.
SORIANO: I know, but I'm asking-- I'm bringing this as a
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philosophical thing; this is what you're interviewing me,
what about my ideas. And I'm telling you how we are non-
thinkers, how we corrupt everything with muddling. That's
what I ' m trying to bring about .
LASKEY: I see.
SORIANO: Okay. And it's just as preposterous when
somebody comes and says, "I want a mural with horses in
there." Or with bulls, with impalas, or whatever. Okay.
But then, the question is the same thing, "Why?" In a
brand new building that millions of people will go up and
down on business or research, or whatever it is; not one
person, you see. And then he imposes that because he likes
it. It has this nostalgia, or whatever his idea, to
commission a mural of horses, which were done originally as
ritual. Which were art, supposedly, they call it. But
they were not art; they didn't call it anything. They were
ritualistic. Yeah. This is what I've been trying to
clarify, this area. And therefore all this brings
obscurantism. All these complexities. Manipulations as
one person will dictate. I like it; therefore, I want
it. It's mine, I'm paying for it. This is what this lady
said. "Well, I want a chateau."
I said, "You know what a chateau is?"
"Oh, I know. Don't you have a book here? I'll show
you . "
347
I said, "I know what a chateau is; you don't have to
show me." And then I said, "Well, you know, to build a
thing like that today will cost you money."
"I have money. No problem with that. I want it."
And I said, "Well, do you know what a chateau is?"
Again she said, "Well, I know I like it."
And I said, "Fine, but they were fortresses, you
see." She just looked at me; she didn't even know it was a
fortress — Originally they were fortresses. And then
finally I couldn't convince her, I said, "Why not have
something for you, the way you want it and that suits your
needs. You give me all your requirements, your likes and
dislikes--" and to solve the problem.
"No, I like to have a French chateau, because I know
what I like." Well, she was impossible to convince.
I said, "I'm sorry, madame, I don't think I can do
that because it'll be a fake, funny imitation." And I
said, "I can bamboozle you if I really wanted to make
money. I can give you a chateau; you won't even know the
difference even. I can make all kinds of sketches to tell
you this is a chateau, looks like, but it won't be a
chateau, it will be nonsense, really."
"And do you know any architect?"
I said, "No, madame, you open the telephone directory,
I'm sure they'll be many, many architects that will love to
348
do it for you." And that's it. And the door was open, I
said, "Good-bye, madame." That's it.
So, where are we? Questions again. You brought
something else up of style. Do you know what a style is?
What ' s a style?
LASKEY: Only what I said in the previous conversation.
SORIANO: You said a lot of things with it; you mixed very
back and forth. The great total thing of beauty you
mentioned. I just might —
LASKEY: I didn't say that was a style.
SORIANO: No. No, I understand —
LASKEY: I was talking about the creation —
SORIANO: Yeah. Yeah.
LASKEY: — what they saw as — whether architecture included
painting and sculpture, or whether architecture should be
sculptural. Which is something that according to what you
wrote, or what I read in the Paul Heyer book [Architects on
Architecture], that you don't think that even in its
structure architecture should be sculptural.
SORIANO: I didn't say that.
LASKEY: Didn't I--?
SORIANO: No. I didn't say that. Even structure shouldn't
be sculptural. I never said that.
LASKEY: Shouldn't be sculptural.
SORIANO: Exactly. Now, don't misquote me, you see?
349
Imagine, if you-- No, I'm just —
LASKEY: No, that's what I thought I said.
SORIANO: Yeah. No, you thought I said, should be
sculptural .
LASKEY: Shouldn't be.
SORIANO: Shouldn't.
LASKEY: Should not be sculptural.
SORIANO: Well, good, I hope so.
LASKEY: Because particularly —
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: — when you talked about [Eero] Saarinen and it's
TWA terminal —
SORIANO: That's correct.
LASKEY: — and the [Solomon R. ] Guggenheim [Foundation].
SORIANO: Which was [sculptural]. That's correct, yeah.
This is correct. This is correct quoting me. Now. For
that reason, I feel the same thing. You go to the
renaissance cathedrals, as we talked before. The public,
as I said, where people lived was chaos. Maybe you don't
agree with that. I don't know. Did you — ? You've been to
Acropolis? To Athens?
LASKEY: No, I haven't.
SORIANO: You haven't been to Rome?
LASKEY: I've been to Rome, yes, but not to Athens.
SORIANO: All right, you've seen the Saint Peter's
350
[Cathedral]? And then what else is there around Saint
Peter's? Nothing but chaos, all kinds of buildings where
people lived.
LASKEY: Well, I know the tenements in which the Romans
lived were terrible. I mean, they used to collapse and
kill thousands regularly.
SORIANO: Sure, sure, sure. And in Athens, the same
thing. Here you have a temple beautifully, logically done
with a lot of space on the very top. Just down below, as
you go down below Athens, what's called--just nothing but a
whole bunch of helter-skelter or pell-mell tenements.
LASKEY: Tenements. It's exactly what they were.
SORIANO: But people lived — Not a single detail or
attention to these. These grew any old way. But the
temples, ritualistically, were okay.
LASKEY: And the villas.
SORIANO: That's right. And then, sculpture and painting
was together there. Yeah. Now, let's get it further
down. Where the people lived there was no sculpture, no
painting. They were barely interested in living and having
enough water to run, which they didn't have.
LASKEY: Would the tenements in which they were living,
would you call that architecture?
SORIANO: Would I?
LASKEY: Yes.
351
SORIANO: To me, what is today architecture is not. I
wouldn't call it that. They were simply happenstance due
to several variety of things, for people to live.
LASKEY: Do you think that architecture is something that
needs to be designed- -
SORIANO: Absolutely- -
LASKEY: — to be architecture?
SORIANO: It should be done, certainly. Today we do it,
especially today. We are past the stage of the- -what do
you call that? — the pioneer stage, when we went through the
Wild West, chop any tree and build your own shack any old
way. We have passed that stage already. In fact, I wrote
that in one of that book I read to you from there. You'll
see. The stage is gone. We've finished that. And yet
some people are still doing the same thing: chop trees,
building them the way the pioneers did with log cabins.
LASKEY: Log cabins.
SORIANO: Okay. Now, many people still love this style.
"Oh, I love log cabins. I love English renaissance or
Chippendale — " You name it. All these names. Adjectives
are concocted nonsense; they don't mean anything, yeah.
But they make good sounding words for some artificial
people to discuss in an evening. "Oh, yes, but I, I
appreciate this impressionism, I appreciate the dadaist.
Oh no, the dadaist is for that. Oh, no, oh, no, no, no.
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no." They keep on-- It's a nice conversation piece to say
nothing. Trivia conversation for an evening. And that's
what occurs all the time. And I remember I lectured once
at San Bernardino, to the museum there. One of the
curators to the museum there, a lady, who was there, and I
was taking one of the professors and the classes. And she
was trying to, all of a sudden, to show us certain things,
to tell us certain things about a piece of sculpture that
was exhibited — a huge mess of nonsense that some young man
did. And she was trying to give us as if we were
housewives that came in Thursday afternoon to get a little
culture, we're going to the museum. And she was saying--
even trying to speak French — "Well, I'm passed-- Well,
there were the impressionists, and the dadaists, and there
were the exhibitions of the les refus^es." She said
ref usees. Now, if she knew French, wanted to be French,
she could have said refus^es, not ref usees — such a thing.
And then finally — she kept on talking, ruminating all these
Frenchy words — and finally some student asked, "Well, I
don't understand what you're telling us." I said, "What
does that mean?" "Well . . .," then she kept on in the
renaissance- -puta, puta, puta, puta, puta — Excuse me, I
have to go somewhere, pardon. [tape recorder off]
So then I'll go back to the renaissance, the building
in the Saint Peter's, let's say, a good example. And you
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find the subject matter of the painting and the frescoes in
the cathedral, isn't it? What's the subject matter there,
inside of the Saint Peter's?
LASKEY: In Saint Peter's? Religious.
SORIANO: All these murals.
LASKEY: Religious.
SORIANO: Exactly.
LASKEY: Of saints and —
SORIANO: That's right. That's the society at the time of
the renaissance for the people who did it, commissioned
it. And this was part of the commission that requested,
and therefore, they mix painting. Because in those days
they didn't have newspapers, they didn't have television,
they didn't have any of that propaganda machine. And I
call this purely propaganda poster; that's what they
were. I'm not talking about the dexterity of
Michaelangelo, whoever, all this, that they knew how to
draw. This is fine, this is lovely. I admire the
dexterity. But, the subject matter interests me. What is
it? Religious murals telling me all these fairy tales,
contrived by somebody, a couple of artists. Isn't it? Few
artists, whatever they were. They were painting the things
from the Bible.
LASKEY: Right.
SORIANO: What's the Bible? A lot of fairy tales.
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Unfortunately, many people don't believe that. But they
were concocted stories, yes? And you know very well
without industry today, without scientific knowledge, with
the validation we have and going into space, we know very
well the world wasn't created in seven days, or six days--
whatever it is — and the last day God rested. We know this
is a nice little story, yes? If you want to believe that,
go ahead; but we know very well the world is more complex
than that. Don't you think so?
LASKEY: Oh, yes, of course.
SORIANO: Okay. So therefore, you don't accept. Yet those
things are painted in the murals. They're telling you all
of that. Yes. The Michaelangelo with a man floating
there in clouds says God creating the universe, or so God
creating the sun and the moon. Now, even when you look at
that, when they tell you that story, a thinking person will
say, "What is that? What is he telling me? Do I have to
look at this anymore? Do I have to read it?" Suppose you
read that. You will say, "Oh, bush." Literally has
nothing to do with it. The story is, literally, you throw
it away, anymore than these funnies in the newspaper. Some
people write this stuff in the funnies which are literally
"Why is there nonsense--" They're not good English to begin
with. And from a semblance of art or drawing is also equal
to zero. The third one, the philosophy, is equally as
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nonsensical platitudes, isn't it? To me they are.
Whatever I have seen. And so, the result is we are here
brainwashed with all these things, and we make them
sanctified; you can't even question that. So, therefore,
it comes to us now as the thing to do. The cathedrals or
the buildings must have painting, must have sculpture,
because they did in the past to make these propaganda
posters. And I question that. I say today we don't need
that; today we have a tremendous amount of knowledge. That
is our era. This lovely little microphone is your era.
This lovely tape recorder with our voices-- We can do
anything we want with this, and this is the era. Our
travels. You came here on a plane, didn't you? How
beautiful, you know? In less than an hour you came here,
from Los Angeles.
LASKEY: Right.
SORIANO: Yes. Imagine if you had to take a horse and
buggy how many--
LASKEY : Days .
SORIANO: It would have taken two or three days. Yes.
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TAPE NUMBER: VI, SIDE TWO
JULY 21, 1985
SORIANO: And, where was I? Oh, yes, I was telling you
about the horse and buggy. The interesting — One of the
students at Miami University once was lamenting at all this
mechanization, all this technology, and all that and all
that and all that. I said to her, "What are you afraid of
it? It's a question of misuse or you use it properly,
isn't it?"
And she said, "Well, I still don't like it."
And I said, "Well, that's all right. This is your
privilege. I'm not questioning." But I said, "How did you
come here to school?"
"What do you mean?"
I said, "What did you do? What transportation do you
use?"
"Oh, I came, I have my car, automobile."
I said, "Really." And I said, "Why didn't you use a
horse and buggy?" Yeah. That hit home, really. And I
said, "Do you cook? Do you have an apartment?"
She said, "Yes."
I said, "Do you have the facilities for cooking?
Yes? What kind?"
"I have an electric stove."
I said, "Oh, no. It's best to make fire outside and
357
bring it in and cook it with — "
"Oh," she said, "well, I like that, too, when I do
barbecues . "
I said, "Well, that's not what I asked you. That's a
different question again, another." I said, "You are
complaining about all this industrialization, all this
mechanical things, disastrous, and yet you're using all of
that, which helps you. This is our society. We have to
progress. We cannot regress or stay in the same area.
This is why we have to think, even in architecture, too.
We have to check and evaluate. We discard things that
don't serve anymore. Certainly. And that's what we
haven't done in architecture." I said, "Once we are--looks
like we are in a house full of garbage in the backyard,
we'll never have emptied that garbage. It's been
accumulating for years and years and years and years, until
it stinks to high heaven, " as they say. Yeah. Now, what
other question you have?
LASKEY: What would you do with architecture if you--? If
you were putting together an architectural school today,
what would you teach?
SORIANO: Oh, that's a very deep question. The fact is, I
would simply not teach any art, number one, or any kind of
art will be absolutely taboo. I will make them think first
of all.
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LASKEY: Now, when you say no art, you're not talking about
drawing, that is, drafting —
SORIANO: That's entirely different. That's technological
drafting. You say it's like taking shorthand and using a
pen and plume. That's got nothing to do with architecture.
LASKEY: Okay.
SORIANO: You have to indicate, you have to present
things. Writing a score, like music, you write a music,
you write score. Or you can write some other ways. This
is purely a medium to be able to communicate or translate
the thought to be audible or listenable or visually
viable. That's something else. It's a technique. It's
nothing to do with what we're talking about. The teaching- -
Meaning you have to make the students to think, first of
all. They have to use their brains. You have to direct
them in areas. What does that mean? What is thinking?
What's knowledge? We have to clarify all these things.
Then we bring it down to architecture eventually, all of
these things properly. And to analyze all these things
whether what we discussed before about thinking of the
process of inventiveness, which is the creative aspects.
And find out whether these were really inventive things, or
were they ruminating things, you see. So therefore, I will
eliminate all this. I will not teach any such things. I
will concentrate on scientific thinking a great deal.
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sciences that will encourage it, really, because that's
what brings us knowledge. We learn more about us and the
universe by teaching sciences. Yes. And the arts are
purely a mythological thing. Unless you want to be a
medicine man, go ahead and study, but don't come to the
school of architecture such as I will make. And then we
begin to really work in the areas of great, great thinking,
and advancing of thought, and really evaluating what are we
talking about with all this. When we say environmental
design, or the environment, or a building, what is this?
To really in depth to pursue this, to find out, what are we
talking about? Is it all this silly self-expression of all
kinds of little arty work? Or is it something else?
Yes. Same thing as when you are making a shoe. It cannot
be a little pie. Or it cannot be a bracelet. A shoe's a
shoe. That means it has to serve. Doesn't it? Has to fit
your foot. You have to measure it; it has to fit certain,
wherever it will go, and we have these sizes and all that
for that reason. As a matter of fact, this brings me back
to the word art- -artisan. You know what the artisan, the
etymology of art? Artisans. Your daughter who studies
French, she should know that. You ask her if she knows
what an artisan is. It is the doers. The breadmaker was
an artisan, yes. The candlemaker was an artisan. The
shoemaker was an artisan. The tailor was an artisan. The
360
peasant who tilled the soil was an artisan. These were all
doers, yes. And in doing, they have to do something that
performs, like this little microphone. The people who
design these microphones — there was one brain, or because
this is very complex now. Now we come to a realm of many
scientists that feel great dedication and application to
the scientific facts; validate knowledge to make this tiny,
tiny little microphone- -which is so beautiful — to work,
yeah, yeah. So that's an artisan. And therefore, after
that, some of the people who devise those definitions of
impressionism and da-da-da-da-da, they're babblers,
jugglers of words who know nothing, have degenerated this
into art, artist. That's it. That's the big tragedy of
our lives, is this contaminant called art. And this is
what architecture is suffering about. It has nothing to do
with architecture or solving a problem. Whether it's
designing a microphone, building a city, or designing a
building, or a design on a matchbox. It's all the same
process- -the process of evaluating, validating, and doing
things for performance, period, that does the thing well.
Then, it's an accomplishment, yeah.
LASKEY: Should architecture be permanent?
SORIANO: I don't know what permanence is. What is
permanent?
LASKEY: Do you build monuments for the future, or do you--?
361
SORIANO: What is monument? What do you mean by monument?
LASKEY: The Acropolis Is a monument. Saint Peter's Is a
monument .
SORIANO: Yeah, but they taught that as monuments. It was
nothing but structures to house certain things; some people
later on called it monuments. There are also monuments in
the cemetery, aren't there? Don't they call that
monuments?
LASKEY: They're built to last.
SORIANO: Well, not in the cemetery.
LASKEY: Well, those monuments are built to last, too.
They're meant to mark the graves for a long time.
SORIANO: Well, I know. They eventually are all destroyed
by the-- Time destroys everything. Yeah.
LASKEY: But I did wonder if you see a constant use of the
materials at hand, and the studying of the technology to
incorporate all the newest technologies into architecture,
if you see buildings as temporary. If you, in other words,
do you see a structure as a functional--you're serving a
functional need, you build an office building to house a
certain kind of office. Well, chances are that office,
that business is going to change over a period of years.
Would you see--? Do you build into your buildings an
obsolescence? Do you build them for the time, for the
need, with the idea that they will be taken apart, or
362
dismantled, or something happens to them in the future? Or
do you build them with the idea that they will be there two
hundred years from now? Because that's sort of the feature
theory .
SORIANO: No, no. This question, the question is a very
big question. [tape recorder off] Now they interrupted my
train of thought.
LASKEY: We were talking about whether buildings should be
built—
SORIANO : Permanently —
LASKEY: --to last.
SORIANO: — yeah, yeah. That I don't know. It doesn't
even enter into my mind. But it does enter into my mind
that when I do something, that thing should perform well.
And it should last, naturally. Because a person who
commissions you to design a house or a building, doesn't
make any difference. It requires to be done in the best
way possible according to the budget, use certain
materials, naturally. That dictates the type of materials
that you use. And if you want, if you have a lot of money,
you can build them of gold. Gold will not tarnish, will
stay there. Now, platinum, or some space materials which
last forever, yes, you can do that, but depending on all of
the budget, depending on the requirements of the client.
Therefore, the materials you use are accordingly. Whether
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they last three hundred, two hundred, one hundred, I don't
know, this depending on many, many factors. There is
pollution today, in the atmosphere, with all these acidic
and chemical things which destroy and eat some of the
materials. So the idea is to do the best you can with what
you have with your requirements. And according to the
monies, because It always enters into this. The first
question a client asks you is, "How much is it going to
cost?" It's the first question you hear. "How much is it
going to be?" How much I can afford. That's how much I
have. Therefore, you do the best you can to devise what
materials you can use. You can eliminate some materials
which are extremely expensive, but there is a very limited
budget, naturally. And inexpensive, meaning that sometimes
these materials will last a long, long, long time, will not
require any upkeep. And sometimes you give them materials
that they want to have a house that they will live maybe
forty, fifty years in the house, or more. And most, even
those jerry-built houses live for a couple hundred years.
So, that's the scenario.
LASKEY: But you don't-- You don't have as part of your
theories or thinking on architecture a real notion that
there is a limit, that building should only function for a
limited time.
SORIANO: No. No, never. In fact, you do the best you can
364
and hope it will last for three centuries or more. It will
stay there forever. But then, I don't know, sometimes
depending on a lot of elements which destroy it. Yeah. I
never, no, this never enters me as monuinent--to build
monuments and all that. That's not for me. Monuments are
the same thing as museums. They are places of internment,
burial places. This is not the area of architecture, I
don't think so.
LASKEY: You've been concerned with low-cost housing for
most of your architectural life. Does that have any
relation to your political philosophy where you've been
involved with concerned people?
SORIANO: No. No, nothing to do with politics. What's
politics? What ' s my political philosophy? What ' s your
political philosophy, since you ask me that question?
LASKEY: Well, you've talked about politics off and on in--
SORIANO: Yeah, politicians I talk about them, you know,
it's true. But I don't have any political philosophy as an
architect. No, that doesn't enter into my mind. Even in
the housing, because I am interested in the public to live
well. And I'm sure Mr. [Richard J.] Neutra was
concerned. All the really top architects were concerned to
do really better things for the people to live in. And I
think for the first time in our history, because I will say
to you Neutra-- I complimented Neutra so much because he
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did so many things. Because he was one of the first,
actually, who really gave attention to housing for the
public.
LASKEY: Well, it is interesting that — Was it in the
fifties--the forties or the fifties--that there was an
explosion of architects concerned about public housing when
the public housing program were developed in Los Angeles —
but I think they developed across the country. And that I--
It was suddenly a consciousness of what I would call a
political conciousness, that doesn't seemed to have
happened before or have happened since.
SORIANO: No.
LASKEY: And I was curious as to what happened then. Why
that sort of upwelling of public consciousness developed
with architecture at that time.
SORIANO: I don't think so. I don't think this at that
time, 1950, was any public conscience. Those are the
people who jumped in the bandwagon like they jumped in the
bandwagon of all the politicalisms or all these cults.
Yeah, these are the type of people. No, no. You have to
go way, way, way before the — in the twenties and the
thirties, what some architects were thinking about planning
properly for the public so they can have better housing.
And not only just in planning, has nothing to do with
politics. Has to do with really the concern of the
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integrity of the individual, concern for the well-being of
a human being when it does something that they think will
serve them well. And then he went further to say, "Why not
plan in totality so the community could live better?"
These things came forth, I think, in the early thirties,
yeah. Even in the twenties about that. They were people- -
LASKEY: Well, the Bauhaus, I think the people —
SORIANO: No, Bauhaus, nonsense. Well, that's a talk
afterwards. The Bauhaus was another nonsense. They were
another one, contaminated cultists. That's another
story. But actually, architects were concerned. Some of
the very important architects were very much concerned in
giving proper planning and proper housing with proper
environment for society. And they were interested in
that. And not only the planning of totality or groups of
communities, but the buildings themselves were equally as
intelligently planned, you see. And not like the
Levittowns. Levittown is also another mess.
LASKEY: Planned community.
SORIANO: Planned community. Yes. Big words. What does
that mean? Nothing. There were the biggest slums of
junkyard by some incompetent, ignorant human beings. Like
[William] Zeckendorf, like [Joseph] Eichler and the rest of
them, thinking they were accomplishing something. All they
were interested in was making money. Nothing to do with
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planning anything. They were not Interested in that.
Because that's why they left all these messes. Isn't it?
Levittown, is that a planned conununity?
LASKEY: I think it was designed as a planned- -one of the
first of the major —
SORIANO: Well—
LASKEY: --sort of middle —
SORIANO: --it wasn't really, was just-- To me it was
nothing but another big slum, only it was made with
playgrounds. Apparently, to make it more palatable,
sugarcoated with a little bit of planning, yes. Because
they gave them a little shopping center here, or a little
facility there. That's not what I call. Now, Mr. Neutra
and his Rush City Reformed, which he called it. And even
Le Corbusier when he made this La Ville Radieuse. So he
had very wonderful concepts, and they were planned
properly. Not just this kind of little communities done by
Zackendorf or by Eichler, all the rest of them. All this
is rubbish. These are cults. Nothing to do with
planning. Yeah.
LASKEY: Well, you were appointed to the state board
[California State Board of Architectural Examiners] , state
architectural board by Jerry [Edmund G.] Brown [Jr.], and
you're still on the board.
SORIANO: Yes.
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LASKEY: Right. How do you feel about the state's attitude
toward architecture?
SORIANO: It was a mess. They made misconceptions. I
think Jerry Brown was wrong in his conceptual affair of
what the board should be, because-- I think he hated
professionalism; he thought the professionals will tend to
protect themselves rather than protect the public.
Therefore, he appointed, he denigrated the board-- We have
only three member architects on the board, three
architects, and six public members which are non-
architects, who know nothing about architecture.
LASKEY: What was the — ? What is the function of the
board? What are you supposed to do?
SORIANO: Well, they just simply check on the candidates
who come to be licensed as architects. They check, they
give examinations. And then they check also for violators;
those who don't have a license. They bring him to court,
you know. We give them penalties or they revoke his
license. I mean, again, this is a sideline. As far as I'm
concerned, they're a waste of time for that. They should
really involve themselves in the quality of it, bringing
forth fine architects. And to see to it that the
qualifications of other universities should work together
to develop better programs, better education to bring
really architects. But they don't do that. The whole
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thing is Just a farce. It has become nothing but a
political manipulation by all these legal entanglements
with all the public members. Since they have no knowledge
of architecture, they're involved with all this political
rubbish. Yeah. They make nothing but fights and fights
and fights between the different boards, and it has become
a big comedy, really. A soap opera. Yeah. I think it's a
tragic thing. And I think Jerry Brown made a big
miscalculation in his thinking. And he was trying to do
the same for the doctors, and the doctors didn't let him.
But the architects did. The architects were very, very
subservient, apparently thinking that they will get jobs
from the state, you see. Then they didn't want to
antagonize the governor, therefore, they acceeded to all
these things. And the result is it's a big mess now. Once
they pass the laws they become part of the statutes.
Therefore, to undo that it will take another eight years,
ten years with new membership, with new fights, new
resolutions, to get new members, new thinking; they have
been fighting towards that. It's almost like a hopeless
case. You have no idea the waste of time.
LASKEY: Have you made any progress? Do you feel like
you've made some progress.
SORIANO: Yes, I made a little progress. I think I read to
you a little letter on that, didn't I?
370
LASKEY: Yes.
SORIANO: Of what the — How they are aggrieved, even
nationally, from Washington, D.C. And I've been hollering
about this for the last two and a half years I've been on
the board. Yeah. And, of course, they think I'm too
severe, I'm too critical, and all that; that I don't
understand the legalities. Yeah, of course, I don't
understand the legalities that they fostered in order to
protect themselves, their politlcization, you see? They
just play ball with each other to protect their lack of
knowledge by hiding behind the agendas in all this verbiage
of politics and meaningless words. It's a pity because the
society loses, and it was supposed to protect the health,
welfare, and safety of the public. It's supposed to be the
protectors of that, yeah. And the board is like the
Supreme Court. If there is a grievance between architects
and clients, then eventually they have to come to the board
to adjudicate what has occurred. And, it's a mess, really.
LASKEY: Well, if you move down to Southern California
again when you have to leave here, will you stay on the
board?
SORIANO: Oh, of course, nothing to do-- The appointment
has nothing to do with where I am.
LASKEY: I just-- I assumed that you met in Sacramento;
that may be wrong.
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SORIANO: We meet all over.
LASKEY: Oh, you meet all over, oh, okay.
SORIANO: Sacramento, Los Angeles, we go all over. San
Francisco, San Bernardino, San Diego. We meet in all
regions to accommodate everybody, all the regions. And we
give the exams in different areas, too.
LASKEY: You actually oversee the exams? Or do you--?
SORIANO: Yeah, we have-- No, the board itself does not, is
not supposed to be involved in that. We have proctors, we
have examiners, but we oversee the whole thing, that it is
done properly and not to have any problems. If they do
have problems, they come to us. Yeah.
LASKEY: Do you think the exam is fair?
SORIANO: The exam is as fair as the people who write
them. And that doesn't say much because there's a lot of
ignorant unhatched eggs — I will repeat that again — who are
graduated from our universities, which is a very dangerous
state of affairs. Hideous. And therefore, they-- It
becomes a serious matter, really. Because they are the
ones who — Ignorant people write those exams, which are
ignorant exams, and then these people who examine are also
equally as ignorant. They don't even know what it's all
about. They have become sort of a personal subjective
nonsense. And that's not the way. And especially
architecture is a very, very ticklish thing due to the fact
372
that there's a great deal of this subjectivity that enters
into design, you know. But yet, above that there is a
transcendental, a very good objectivity that should occur,
really, in knowledge and science. But most architects
don't practice that way. They like to make it very
subjective, as if they were artists, you see; that again,
I'll bring that. That's the biggest disease they have.
Our universities are contaminated with that.
LASKEY: Is that reflected in the exam?
SORIANO: Sure. Sure. Yeah, those who even evaluate the
candidates' examination, you should see the words they
use. I've been taking issue with all of it. Yeah. They
talk a lot of nonsense.
LASKEY: Getting back to the question of if you were to
open a school and formulate a curriculum, would you include
architectural history in the school of architecture?
SORIANO: You could. You could, but then possibly as a
reference, I would say. Go to reference school, but don't
make a big case. Because history doesn't teach you
anything, really. And then besides, what is history? Who
writes history? Whoever writes has his own input there.
It has nothing to do with the real facts, really.
History's something of the past. I think the future we
don't give a damn because we don't know. The future will
have its own requirements, its own qualities, its own
373
advancements, its own knowledge. It's the present that
counts. The future, you can understand the future, and
don't copy it or imitate it or perform with the future.
That doesn't make sense. Today. Today we have tremendous
top men that are questioning today's knowledge; that's the
important thing. And don't be the messiah that you're
going to do for the future. You're going to-- You know, we
are to think of the future. Forget it. That's
presumptious of you-- The future may have so many
sophisticated things that will boggle your mind. Who are
you to tell what the future will be? Even the scientists
don't know. All you can do is operate today with what we
know what we have today. Then you're doing very well. And
then keep always advancing and have broad aspects, yes.
You can conjecture, you can abstract, you can postulate
about the future, yes. And the past, well, you can read
about the past and you'll be ruminating. You're taking a
lot of junk said by a lot of people that may or may not
be. They may be fairy tales. I have a dear friend of
mine, David Daub, used to be a regents professor at Oxford
University. And he used to officiate at Passover.
Sometimes he used to come in from England, used to give a
little stance of sort of a Passover, you know, the Jewish
holiday of the Pesach. And he was a scholar of Roman and
Greek law. And he used to tell exactly the ceremony the
374
way the Jews would practice it. In other words, they used
to use matzohs. And they used to hide a little piece of
leg of lamb, or a little bone, or a piece of little bread,
hide it for other people to come, whatever the rich one
was. And a lot of other ceremonial things within that
thing there. And then he used to come and tell you this
whole thing came from the Greek mythology. It has nothing
to do with the Jews.
LASKEY: Really?
SORIANO: And he used to give a lot of interesting data on
the fact that all of these things go back to the mythology
of Greece. And with every new generation, every rabbi
added his own little fairy tale, little story to it.
Therefore, you have what you have today. You see? And
this is very interesting, isn't it? I mean, those who
think have thought of that, and now come up with these
ideas. Sure. And even the fact that they have — I
questioned some people writing about Chanukah — You know
Chanukah?
LASKEY: Yes.
SORIANO: The holiday? How do you write Chanukah?
LASKEY: I don't know. Sometimes I've seen it spelled with
ch—
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: --and sometimes just with an h.
375
SORIANO: That's correct.
LASKEY : So I ' m not sure .
SORIANO: Now, what do you — What do you think? Well, you
would think now Ha-nu-ka. How do you pronounce that and
how do you write it, Chanukah? Haiku. How do you write
haiku? Ch?
LASKEY: H-A-I —
SORIANO: That's right, h, yeah?
LASKEY: --K-U. Well, but the — I think, I don't know
Hebrew, but I think the ch —
SORIANO : Yeah?
LASKEY: — sound in Hebrew is like a chhh.
SORIANO: Well, chhh is "chaih. " It's not "haa, " is it?
LASKEY: No, it's a "chhh."
SORIANO: Okay, now do you know why the ch is done?
LASKEY : No .
SORIANO: Who did it? Some young punks. I took issue with
a couple of young rabbis — Christmas. How's Christmas come
to be ch, isn't it? Okay. They want it to be sort of
related to the modern Christianity, possibly. Chanukah,
ch, think in relating to that kind of celebration as it
is. Yes. I had this discussion with a couple of young
rabbis. And I said, "Are you crazy?" I said, "This is
silly." Well, they thought it was part of the same ritual;
after all, you know, Christ was a Jew, too. Christos, you
376
know?
LASKEY: Oh, I know.
SORIANO: And, but the point is that it's Chanukah, which
is silly. And I know I wrote the one rabbi that, and you
know, he changed it the next time. He wrote it with an
h. Yeah. And they keep ruminating without thinking. Some
write it, they should know better. Because the ha-nu-ka,
it's "haa." It's not Chanukah. No. Charles, ch, isn't
it? Yes.
LASKEY: But what is the ch in Italian?
SORIANO: Ch —
LASKEY: It's a c.
SORIANO: No. "Ciao." "Ciao" is c-i.
LASKEY: Yeah, it's c-i,--
SORIANO: Yeah.
LASKEY: But I think ch —
SORIANO: "Ca."
LASKEY: --is not a "tsh."
SORIANO: "Tsh," no.
LASKEY: It's a "k."
SORIANO: No, but it's different, different. It's not —
LASKEY: And so I assume that the--
SORIANO: No.
LASKEY: Hebrew, it was the same thing- -
SORIANO: Never, never, never.
377
LASKEY: --the ch was an h sound.
SORIANO; The h sound is "haa." Yeah. And that's the
whole thing, that people don't think. They'll use that,
they'll ruminate that again, and it keeps propogating. All
of a sudden you find it becomes an accomplished fact. And
then you'll see, as you say, you saw it written twice-- Two
different types. Sure.
LASKEY: And are you saying then that the h is the proper
way —
SORIANO: The h is the proper way —
LASKEY: And the ch is a corruption.
SORIANO: — is a corruption with the young so-called
nonthinkers. Yeah, it was some kind of a-- Well, anyway,
that's a lot of people who don't think. Especially since
the fifties, we have had a lot of those beatniks with
beards — Let me put a little grease on that chair because
it bothers me. Once, yeah.
LASKEY: Do you think from what you were saying about
Chanukah, then, that this is the problem, one of the
problems, related to the teaching of history? That
subjective ideas become collective ideas, they get
incorporated, and then get passed along as fact?
SORIANO: That's correct. That's exactly it. And then
many of them are corrupt untruths. They become like little
stories, little fairy tales. And then they become an
378
accomplished fact. And most people don't even bother to
check the sources. They keep using them, they read some
words and they think, "Well, yeah, I bet that guy studied
that and it validated that, " you see? And then he takes it
and uses it. And they teach that in the universities by
reading a book that somebody wrote about architecture,
yeah. And they write whatever according to what this sort
of person wrote. Yeah.
LASKEY: Well, if you taught architectural history and you
did it through pictures, do you think that would be
corrupting?
SORIANO: No, if you can illustrate. If you can illustrate
the pictures and show why, show the reasons they were
there, as we were discussing here-- When I give lectures I
illustrate these very same points very extensively. And
they begin to realize that. Yeah. Yes.
LASKEY: We haven't touched at all — and this will be one of
the final things we'll probably discuss--but we haven't
touched at all on the subject of vernacular architectures
and--
SORIANO: What's that? What's that?
LASKEY: Well, native things like igloos, or tree houses.
Could a modernist--? Would you recommend that someone like
yourself, a modernist, would study what people, indigenous
people did as a means of simplifying even further the ideas
379
of architecture, or incorporating these ideas? Or would
you throw them out and deal strictly with technology?
SORIANO: No, the question is a very good one actually. I
don't think really that the question of studying igloos,
studying tree houses-- Tree houses are, to me they are
playthings of kids, isn't it? And the apes do that, they
build their own. And it's not a house; they just bend some
branches to make a place where they can lie down and
sleep. And they don't build shelters. Tree houses are
done with children to play; something else we don't bother
with that. Igloos are differently. Teepees by some of the
primitive Indians, yes. You can study that; some knowledge
that comes from there, yes. I don't deny that one bit. I
accept that, all the time. In fact, it's good to study
this, and if there's anything you can learn from it, you
take them; that's perfect. And if there is something that
doesn't give you, there's not enough substance, then you
throw them away in this. Not everything that the
primitives did is admirable. There are some things that
are excellent. Same thing, as the Japanese people say,
"Oh, the Japanese house is superb." But it's a lot of
nonsense. Not all, the whole house is not superb, because
there are a lot of things in that house which are just as
full of mythology as any place else. Yes.
LASKEY: The Japanese house?
380
SORIANO: Yes. Some things are very lovely, yes. Some of
these- -the way the sliding doors and all these things that
they made — is a wonderful thing. And then the tatamis, the
modular way of sitting with the little tatamis, those are
wonderful. You can learn from these. But there are a lot
of other things which you cannot take in totality. I've
lectured and taught there — They know me very well over
there. And I know them quite well, too. I discussed some
points. Not all of them are good. Some are intelligent.
It depends. The human being is a very interesting
species. I don't care if it's Japanese or Chihuahuan. It
doesn't matter. The brain is a very beautiful thing of a
human being. Nature has blessed us with that particular
instrument which is absolutely superb. It's up to us to
evaluate objectively, with great dedication to
objectivity. Yes. If we don't do that, then-- There are
people who are incapable of doing this. They don't have
the instrument in their computer; the brain.
Unfortunately, nature has given each one of us a different
pattern. And some with much greater euphony than others,
with some that can abstract with great virility and big
broad concepts. Others can't even think beyond their
nose. But we're not sort of denigrating anybody who's not--
doesn't have the fortune of having these faculties. On the
contrary. We accept humanity as it is with compassion.
381
And those who dedicate themselves with this virility of
investigation and employing their faculties to the utmost,
they're admirable. I admire those people. For that
reason, those are the ones who really contribute, who bring
illumination, who bring understanding. Those are beautiful
people, and they devote their whole life to that. Instead
of making money — they don't give a damn about money--their
whole beauty is to understand, they want to know. This is
what knowledge is. This is what we don't teach in our
schools. We're going to make everybody a great genius, a
great talented thing, and it's impossible to do that, you
see. And this is the tragedy. We try to equalize
everything as if it is equal. But it's impossible. Yeah.
LASKEY: That's an excellent point. And it is true. We
don't accept failure. Or we eliminate it.
SORIANO: Yeah. We — Not everybody-- I mean, we are so
cold, this pseudo, these politicians again making this a
pseudo-democracy, and that everybody's equal. But
everybody's not really equal. They're all equal as human
beings, yes. They're equal to have the love of each one of
us, yes, and the compassion. In that respect they 're- -
we're all equal. But from their contributions, we're not
as equal. And therefore, if you want to make somebody
who's impossible. Incapable of grasping something, to make
him on an equal basis with somebody who understands this
382
quickly — will be a tragic mistake. Because we, first of
all, we waste his time that he could be more useful In
another field. And waste the time also of the other one
who has to remain In that same class trying to explain to
this other one. And In the meantime the other one gets
bored, gets upset, and It becomes chaos. And this Is
exactly what we have In our educational system. Yeah.
Complete chaos. Because, the democratic thing, everybody
has to go to college, everybody has to do this. Well, not
everybody Is material for college. Impossible. Yeah.
College, college, college. What Is that? Nothing. Maybe
It's better off If they plant trees. If they go and
cultivate the earth. It will be better. They will be more
useful and they will be happier. Instead of going to
college and they don't comprehend, they are full of
stresses because they fall. What are we doing? And you
try to question that and they say, "Oh, you're an
elitist." They call you that. They call me that, yes.
They call me many other things. But I don't care, doesn't
make any difference. Let them call me. So what? Well,
anyway, when are you going to come with this document? Are
you going to have another session? You said possibly two
sessions, or what? What was that? Go ahead. Are you
recording?
LASKEY: I'm recording now.
383
SORIANO: So these tapes, the paper, the contract form, you
see, to me it was absolutely incomprehensible to present me
with that right in the beginning. They should have sent
this to me before. And therefore, I must tell you that all
the statements I made here, they're my own privileged
statements, naturally. Because I'm writing a book, my
autobiography. A great deal of this will be in my book,
too, you see. I don't want the misunderstanding on that,
you see. So now I send this form you sent to me to my
attorney to see what he says, and then maybe we can
communicate from there on further on that same subject.
But I want to emphasize that. Because I'm using a great
deal of that in my book, and I don't want this to be
afterwards, in case this appears in my book, "Oh, well,
this is our own privilege." You know? Because--
LASKEY: Yeah, I--
SORIANO: — that's for that reason I didn't sign that
document you sent to me. It's in the hands of my
attorney. And that's clear, I hope.
LASKEY: I hope so.
SORIANO: Okay. Well, very pleased to meet you and hope I
will have a chance to see you again. Give me your
telephone number, both at home and so on, okay?
LASKEY: I will. And —
SORIANO: Go ahead, say it.
384
LASKEY: It's been very —
SORIANO: Say it, say it.
LASKEY: — intense.
SORIANO: Say it, because I have a couple of words; go
ahead. And here, I'm just about finishing.
LASKEY: I just want to thank you for the last three days
and for —
SORIANO: My pleasure.
LASKEY: --your graciousness and--
SORIANO: My pleasure.
LASKEY: — the interview.
SORIANO: You're very charming yourself. Thank you.
LASKEY: And I'm exhausted. [laughs] It has been intense.
SORIANO: What are your two telephones at home — ?
LASKEY: I'll give you a card with the numbers.
SORIANO: Okay.
LASKEY: Thank you again, Mr. Soriano.
SORIANO: Okay, my pleasure, and good wishes to you, okay?
LASKEY: Thank you.
SORIANO: Thank you.
385
INDEX
Acropolis, 350, 362
Ain, Gregory, IT.-l'i, 76-77
Alcoa, 215-16, 300-3
Alcoa Aluminum Conference,
215-16
Alioto, Joseph L., 304,
308, 311
American Heart Association,
319
American Institute of
Architects, 52, 67
Architectural Forum, 214,
244-46; "The New House in
194X", 246-47
Architectiiral Record, 214,
278
Architecture: and the
arts, 322-29, 337-61,
379; Bauhaus, 367; Beaux
Arts curriculum, the, 49-
58; and climate, 263-73;
comparative skill
involved in metal versus
wood design, 182-85; and
durability, 361-65;
ecologically sound, 109-
13; expensive real estate
inhibits innovations in,
311-12; exploitation
through imitation, 317-
19; International Style,
74, 264; in Los Angeles
of the thirties, 273-75;
and low-cost housing,
365-68; of non-Western
cultures, 379-81;
philosophy of, 323-32,
337-61; prefabricated
housing, 246-61, 312-14
Asch, George, 287
Bach, Johann Sebastian, 20,
44, 61, 74, 79, 241-42,
267
Baldwin, Clayton M., 57
Banham, Reyner, 12
Barnsdall Art Center ( Los
Angeles), 197-99
Bassett, Charles, 109-12
Basso, Johnny, 236
Beatles, 64-65, 70
Bechstein, Karl, 79
Beethoven, Ludwig van, 163
Bell6, Gertrude, 44
Bell6, Ren6, 43-44, 48, 50,
55
Belluschi, Pietro, 280
Bernardi, Theodore C, 116,
280
Buxtehude, Dietrich, 20
Blake, Peter, 204
Bowles, John, 164-67
Brown, Edmund, G., Jr.,
368-70
California Arts and
Architecture, 200-203,
214
California Institute of
Technology, 120
California State Board of
Architectural Examiners,
368-72
California State
Polytechnic University,
Pomona, 56-60;
Candela, Felix, 9-11, 321
Carter, James E., 114, 310
Carter, Rosalynn, 114, 310
Case Study Houses 1945-
1962, The, 210
Case Study house program,
115, 181, 191, 200-204,
206-11, 214
Casals, Pablo, 60-61
Chaplin, Charlie, 52
Chermayeff, Serge, 223-24
Chicago Symphony Orchestra,
46
Chilynski, Richard, 56-58
Close, Fritz, 215, 300-301
Consolidated Voltee
Aircraft Company, 119-21,
244
386
Couperin, Frangois, 54, 79
Daub, David, 374
Davidson, J.R., 12-lZ
Day, James, 195
Dworsky, Daniel, 232-33
Eames, Charles, 12, 206-8;
Eames House, 206-8;
Eames -Saarinen House,
207-8
Eames, Ray, 207
Eckbo, Garret, 67
Eichler, Joseph, 115-17,
319, 367-68
Ellwood, Craig, 11-12, 190-
93, 206
Emmons, Donn, 116, 280
Emmons, Frederick, 115, 220
Entenza, John, 75, 115,
201-5, 207
Fairmont Hotel (San
Francisco), 299
Federal Housing
Administration (FHA),
122-26
Feinstein, Diane, 306, 311
Fleishhacker, Mortimer, 195
Friedmann, Bob, 307
Fujikawa, Joseph Y. , 11,
193-94, 232-33
Fuller, R. Buckminster, 284
Gallion, Arthur B., 220,
223
Gershwin, George, 80
Goodman, Michael, 247
Graham Foundation, 194, 204
Graves, Michael, 185, 321
Griffin, Cassatt, 89, 91-
92, 105, 134
Hallawell Seed Company,
128, 151-54, 228-30, 284
Hancock, John Allan, 47
Hancock Hall (Los Angeles),
47
Harris, Harwell Hamilton,
72, 75-76, 117, 205, 247;
Entenza House, 75
Hart, Gary, 114
Hatfield, David, 292-93
Heyer, Paul, 136, 349;
Architects on
Architecture, 136, 349
Hollywood Knickerbocker
Hotel (Los Angeles), 68
Honnold, Douglas, 221
House and Garden, 214
Hunt, H.L., 304-5, 308
Huntley Apartments, 98-99
IBM Building, 164-69, 195
IBM Corporation, 164-69
International Who's Who,
242
John Reed Club, 81-84
Johnson, Philip C, 185-90,
193, 204, 321; American
Telephone and Telegraph
Building, 188; "glass
box" house, 187-89;
Seagram Building, 187
Jones, A. Quincy, 116, 213,
220-23
Kahn, Lewis, 282
Kaiser Aluminum, 317
Katz, Milton, 135-36
Kennedy, John F., 178, 301
Koenig, Pierre, 11-12, 190
KQED (San Francisco), 195-
96, 282, 305-6
Larsen, Marget, 307
Lattice Steel Corporation
of California, 133-35,
153
Lawrence, David, 287
Le Corbusier, 368; Ville
Radieuse, la, 368
Levittown, 367-68
Lietz Company, 166
Lipetz, Helen, 79-80
Lipetz, Manny, 79-80
Los Angeles, 37-38
Los Angeles Coaching
School, 41
Los Angeles County Board of
387
Supervisors, 198-99,
Los Angeles Philharmonic
Orchestra, 85
Los Angeles Philharmonic
Auditorium, 41, 87-88
Lukens, Glen, 139-43
Lyndon, Maynard, 220, 222-
23
Makarova, Natalia, 62-63
Mann, Thomas, 50
Man Ray, 52
McCulloch, Irene, 47
Mendelssohn, Eric, 223
Merrild, Knud, 52
Meyer, Douglas, 246
Miami University, 357
Michelangelo, 354-55
Moore, Charles, 283; C
Ranch, 283
Morris, V.C., 160-64
Muirhead, Desmond, 291
Music, Soriano ' s
appreciation for, 17-21,
45, 54, 61-65, 70, 241,
260-61
McCauley, Frank, 315-16
McCoy, Esther, 12, 43, 71-
72, 86, 133, 136, 149-50,
192, 194, 205, 210-11
McNabb, Esther, 229-30
Mies van der Rohe, Ludwig,
88, 108, 186-87, 190-91,
193-95, 284
National Cornice Works,
158-59
Nervi, Pierluigi, 284
Neutra, Dionne, 86
Neutra, Frank, 86
Neutra, Raymond, 77
Neutra, Richard J., 44, 73,
77, 80, 86-88, 106-8,
117, 124, 206, 214, 247,
264, 275-84, 365-66, 368;
Kaufman House, 281;
Lovell House, 281; Rush
City project, 77, 368
New Architecture and City
Planning, 241-42; "Some
Problems of the Low Cost
Home, " 242-43
Nicholson, Eric, 246
Northwest Pacific Railroad,
297
Office of Price
Administration (OPA),
156-57
Olds, Alan, 203
Orkin, Ruth, 84
Oxford University, 374
Paisiello, Giovanni, 18
Pani, Mario, 82; Pan-
American Congress
buildings, 82
Pearson, Drew, 181
Pelli, Cesar, 191-93, 210
Philosophical Library of
New York, 241-42
Project Architects, 220-23;
Los Angeles Airport bid,
220; San Pedro Community
Hospital, 221, 226, 262-
63
Rameau, Jean Philippe, 54,
79
Reed, James H., 211
Reed, John, 81
Rex, John, 221
Rigler, Leo G., 197-99, 288
Rolland, Romain, 50, 285
Ross, Bruce, 111-12
Rossi, A. Cal, 299-300,
302-3
Royal Institute of British
Architects, 51, 265
Ruppell, Fritz, 133-35,
143-44, 153, 183
Saarinen, Eero, 207-8, 350;
Eames-Saarinen House,
207-8; TWA terminal, 350
Saint Peter's Cathedral
(Rome), 350, 353-54, 362
San Bernardino Valley
College, 293
San Francisco Chronicle,
388
307
Scarlatti, Alessandro, 54,
79, 267
Schindler, Rudolph M., 73,
lt-1^, 275
Schoenberg, Arnold, 61-62
Second Generation, The, 72,
191
Sample, Paul, 45, 54
Shankar, Ravi, 61
Shulman, Emma, 213
Shulman, Julius, 149, 170,
211-13
Shulman, Olga, 212-13
Siqueiros, Blanca Luz, 82
Siqueiros, David, 81-82
Skldmore, Owings and
Merrill, 278, 301
Smith, Ann, 305
Smithsonian Institution, 47
Society and superfluous
design, 240-44
Soriano, Alfredo (brother),
6, 12
Soriano, Raphael: accident
and recovery from, 95-
100; immigrates to
California, 27-38; at
California State
Polytechnic University,
Pomona, 58-60; philosophy
of aesthetics and
utility, 323-65; view of
history, 374-79
Soriano, Raphael —
architectural projects:
Adolph's Building, 144-
46, 175, 197, 217, 238,
257-63, 295, 297;
Alcatraz proposal, 299,
303-11; Alcoa Aluminum
Office Tower (planned
project), 301-3; Arts and
Architecture Case Study
House, 200-4, 209-11,
214; Austrian House, 133,
141; Ciro's, 157, 223-27;
Colby Apartments, 217,
227-28, 231-40, 262-63;
Cook House, 257; Curtis
House, 170, 172-82, 217;
Dixon House, 97-98;
Driver House, 141; Ebert
House, 149; Eichler
House, 114-15, 319; Gato
House, 135-38, 182-83;
Gogol House, 97, 126-27,
141; Hallawell Nursery
and Garden Center, 150-
56, 228-30, 287; Latz
Memorial Jewish Community
Center, 94, 103, 128-30,
134, 137; Lee and Cady
Warehouse, 133-34, 143-
44; Lipetz House, 79-80,
85-86, 88-89, 92-94, 105-
6, 141; Lukens House,
139-43; Pep's Restaurant,
156-57; Polito House,
133, 137-38; Ross House,
133; Shulman House, 170,
172; Strauss House, 149-
50
Soriano, Rebecca (mother),
1, 5-6, 13-17, 21, 23-26,
36-38, 101
Soriano, Simon (father), 2,
5-6, 9, 12-17, 23-24, 26-
27, 32
Soriano, Vittorio
(brother), 6, 17
Spanish Inquisition, 1-2
Spence, Delia, 265-66
Spence, Robin, 265-66
Stanford Court (San
Francisco), 299-300, 302
Sullivan, Louis, 76, 275-76
Technion (Haifa, Israel),
62
Temko, Allen, 300
Temko, Becky, 300
Thompson, Dorothy, 278
Tidmarsh, George, 120
Time, 186
Toscanini, Arturo, 46
United States Department of
Housing and Urban
Development, 310
389
United States Plywood
Company, 232-33
United States Steel, 319
University of California,
Berkeley, 131, 278
University of California,
Los Angeles, 131
University of La Verne — San
Bernardino Valley College
of Law, 287
University of Southern
California, 41-50, 53-58,
61, 72, 77, 140, 220
Varda, Agnes, 52
Var^se, Edgard, 51-52
Venturi, Robert, 283
Vivaldi, Antonio, 267
Watson, Thomas J., Jr.,
165-67, 169
Wax, Mel, 305-6
Webster, Robin, 265
Weiss, Adolph, 61-62
Weatherhead, Arthur, 43,
48, 53, 57
White, Durham, 247
Works Progress
Administration (WPA), 89
Wright, Lloyd, 162-63
Wright, Frank Lloyd, 44,
72, 75-76, 87-88, 159-64,
190, 197, 205, 275-76,
282; Guggenheim Museum,
350; Hollyhock House,
197; V.C. Morris Company
store, 159-64
Wurster, William W., 116,
131, 278-82, 287
Yale University, 187, 192,
270
Zeckendorf, William, 367-68
390
(^
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