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SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UNITED
PUBLIC WORKERS OF AMERICA
^
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE ADMINISTEATION
OF THE INTEENAL SECUEITY ACT AND OTHEE
INTEENAL SECUEITY LAWS
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
UNITED STATES SENATE
EIGHTY-SECOND CONGKESS
FIRST SESSION
ON
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UNITED PUBLIC WORKERS
OF AMERICA
PART I
JULY 27, AUGUST 9, 23, 25 AND 29, SEPTEMBER 28,
OCTOBER 5 AND 10, DECEMBER 14, 1951
PART II
APRIL 12, 13, MAY 11, 1951
Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON : 1952
/
/
0. S. SUPERINTENDENT OF OOCUMEtfIS
APR 17 Ayo2
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
PAT MCCARRAN, Nevada, Chairman
HARLBY M. EHILGORB, West Virginia ALEXANDER WILEY, Wisconsin
JAMES O. EASTLAND, Mississippi WILLIAM LANGER, Nortli Daliota
WARREN G. MAGNUSON, Wasliington HOMER FERGUSON, Michigan
HERBERT R. O'CONOR, Maryland WILLIAM E. JENNER, Indiana
ESTES KEFAUVER, Tennessee ARTHUR V. WATKINS, Utah
WILLIS SMITH, North Carolina ROBERT C. HENDRICKSON, New Jersey
J. G. SouEwiNB, Counsel
Subcommittee To Investigate the Administration of the Internal Security
Act and Other Internal Security Laws
PAT MCCARRAN, Nevada, Chairman
JAMES O. EASTLAND, Mississippi HOMER FER"GUSON, Michigan
HERBERT R. O'CONOR, Maryland WILLIAM E. JENNER, Indiana
WILLIS SMITH, North Carolina ARTHUR V. WATKINS, Utah
Subcommittee Investigating Subversion in the United Public Workers of
America
HERBERT R. O'CONOR, Maryland, Chairman
PAT McCARRAN, Nevada ARTHUR V. WATKINS, Utah
KiCHABD Aeens, staff Director
II
C O N T y. N T S
Statement or testimony of — Page
Bernstein , Alfred 105
Budenz, Louis Francis 21
Gulp, Eugene M 145
Flaxer , Abram 67
Friendland, Henry H 176
Friendland, Sadie K 187
Guinier , Ewart 115
Heffner, Berniece B 1
Ilgner, Gerhard 147
Klein , Eleanor 200
Krause, Ira {also see Krauss, Isidore) 149
Krauss, Isidore (also see Krause, Ira) 149
Morel, Edward L., Jr 140
Pennington, C. Harold 143
Philbin, Thomas J 137
Read, Harry 25
Riesel , Victor 35
Seeley, John T I35
Soboieski, Vivian White 9
Wenning, Henry W 39
Wienckowski, Louis 141
[II
REPORT FROM THE SUBCOMMITTEE INVESTIGATING
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UNITED PUBLIC
WORKERS OF AMERICA
Hearings were held in executive session in Washington, D. C, and
in New York City respecting subversive control of the United Public
Workers of America, the membership of which consists of approxi-
mately 30,000 to 35,000 persons who are employed in local, State, and
Federal Government agencies. The principal points in the testimony
which is herewith transmitted, are as follows :
1. The American Federation of Government Employees, an affiliate
of the American Federation of Labor and composed of civilian em-
ployees of the Federal Government, at its convention in 1936 expelled
certain local lodges because "they were engaging in activities which
were deemed to be inimical to the best interests of the American Feder-
ation of Government Employees." Thereafter, some of the members
of the expelled lodges formed the United Federal Workers of America
which was issued a charter on June 22, 1937, by the Committee for In-
dustrial Organizations, which charter was reissued on November 16,
1938, by the Congress of Industrial Organizations. Among those
Communists who were active in the formation and leadership of the
United Federal Workers of America was one Eleanor Nelson, who
subsequently became president of the organization.
2. During the 1936 convention of the American Federation of
Government Employees a group designated as the American Federa-
tion of State, County, and Municipal Employees was disaffiliated
from the American Federation of Government Employees and was
given a permanent charter from the American Federation of Labor.
Thereafter, a charter was issued to this same group on July 1, 1937,
under the name of the State, County, and Municipal Workers of
America by the Committee for Industrial Organization, which charter
was reissued on November 16, 1938, by the Congress of Industrial
Organizations.
The State, County, and Municipal Workers of America was con-
trolled by the Communist Party which had several hundred Com-
munists in the organization. The president of the organization was
Abram Flaxer, who, as is hereinafter set forth, was repeatedly identi-
fied as a Communist by witnesses before the subcommittee. A former
secretary-treasurer of the organization, Henry W. Wenning, who was
also a key figure in the Communist apparatus, but who subsequently
broke with the Communist Party, testified before the subcommittee
as follows :
I know as a matter of fact, not as a matter of opinion, that from its inception
the State, County, and Municipal Workers of America was controlled by the
Communist Party because I was part of that control.
VI SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
3. In April 1946 the United Federal Workers of America, with an
estimated 15,000 to 20,000 members, and the State, County, and
Municipal Workers of America, with an estimated 25,000 to 30,000
members, merged to form the United Public Workers of America.
4. On February 16. 1950, the Congress of Industrial Organizations
expelled the United Public Workers of America because —
the policies and activities of tlie UPW are consistently directed toward the
achievement of the program and the purposes of the Communist Party rather
than the objectives and policies set forth in the CIO constitution.
5. The president of the United Public Workers of America is
Abram Flaxer, "one of the tried fanatics" of the inner apparatus of
the Communist Party, who as hereinbefore noted, was formerly pres-
ident of the State, County, and Municipal Workers of Ameri( a before
that organization merged with the United Federal Workers of Amer-
ica to form the United Public Workers of America.
Mrs. Vivian White Soboleski, former wife of Abram Flaxer, testi-
fied before the subcommittee as follows:
Mr. Akens. I want you to be absolutely certain on what you say with refer-
ence to the joining by Mr. Flaxer of the Communist Party in 1935. How do
you know that Mr. Flaxer joined a unit of the Communist Party in 1935?
Mrs. SoEOLESKi. He told me he was joining, and he told me subsequently that
he had joined under the name "John Brant," as a party name.
Mr. Arens. Have you seen the Communist Party card of Abram Flaxer?
Mrs. Soboleski. Yes.
Mr. Henry W. Wenning, wlio was secretary-treasurer of the State,
County and Municipal Workers of America while Abram Flaxer
was president of that organization, testified before the subcommittee
with respect to his own former Communist Party membership and
activities and continued as follows :
Mr. Akens. Are you prepared to say that IMr. Flaxer was a member of the
Communist Party, to your knowledge?
Mr. Wfnntnct. To the best of my knowledge, I would say there was no ques-
tion about it.
Mr. Louis Budenz, formerly editor of the Communist Daily Worker,
testified before the subcommittee as follows :
IMr. Connors. Mr. Budenz, I invite your attention to a union known as the
UPWA and ask you if you know^ a man named Abram Flaxer who is the titular
head of that union.
Mr. Budenz. Yes, sir ; I have met Mr. Flaxer as a Communist and know him
to i)e such.
Mr. Connors. Mr. Budenz, to the best of your knowledge, does Mr. Flaxer
consult with Communist Party leadership with respect to the way he rules
the union?
Mr. BtTDENz. During the time I was a member of the party, he constantly
consulted with them. He was even reprimanded by them and disciplined by
them.
Mr. Connors. Could you just approximately, Mr. Budenz, place the time of
your association with Mr. Flaxer?
Mr. Budenz. I was in the Comnnmist Party from 1935 to 1945. I should say
that I can say definitely at this moment that I knew Mr. Flaxer definitely as a
Communist from 1940 to 1945. It may be that upon further recollection I can
even place him during the entire period of my membership as a Communist,
but at the moment I will say 1940 to 1945. That is definite.
Mr. Victor Eiesel testified before the subcommittee as follows :
Mr. Riesel. I can talk to .you from personal observation, wliicli I tliinlc is
as important in this picture as anything you can have on the record.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA VII
Flaxer I have watched at many CIO conventions, and I have been told by
men in the CIO who have broken with the Communist Party, that not only
did Flaxer act as a whip on the floor of the convention, but that he would
partcipate in the Communist caucuses with such people as Roy Hudson of the?
Communist Party, Williamson of the Communist Party
Mr. Connors. John W^illiamson?
Mr. RiESEL. Johnnie Williamson of the Communist Party, and sometimes,
of course, when it was feasible, there would be discussions with the party leader-
ship itself, such as Earl Browder ; that at no time in my observation of every
convention of the CIO that he participated in, did he ever deviate from the
line. ,
Now, you have to differentiate between him and a man, let us say, like Mike
Quill.
These people who later broke occasionally gave evidence of independence, but
Flaxer was always considered in the inner apparatus, as one of the tried
fanatics, and it was our impression that just as men were assigned to capture
the mine, milling and smelter industry, in the nonferrous metals and so on, as
men were assigned to capture the electronics field, Flaxer was assigned to
capture the Government agencies.
Mr. Connors. Then, your testimony, Mr. Riesel, is to the effect that, to the
best of your knowledge, Mr. Flaxer is under Communist Party discipline, and
has been for some time?
Mr. RiESEa.. To my personal observation he was under that discipline at the
CIO conventions in which he participated, and in which I saw him participate.
Abram Flaxer testified before the subcommittee in response to a
subpena but declined to answer questions with respect to his Com-
munist Party membership and Communist activities. He also de-
clined to comment with respect to his membership or affiliation with
numerous organizations which have been cited by Government
agencies as Communist or Communist controlled, inchiding the fol-
lowing :
Committee on Election Rights
Schappes Defense Committee
Joint Committee for Trade Union Rights
Committee for Defense of Public Education
Reichstag Fire Trial Anniversary Committee
Open Letter Defending Harry Bridges
National Federation for Constitutional Liberties
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born
American Committee to Save Refugees
United American-Spanish Aid Committee
Nonpartisan Committee for the Reelection of Congressman Vito Marcantouio
National Negro Congress
Social Work Today
Public Use of the Arts Committee
National Council of American-Soviet Friendship
6. The secretary-treasurer of the United Public Workers of America
is Ewart Guinier who was identified as a Communist by witnesses
before the subcommittee. He testified before the subcommittee in
response to a subpena but declined to answer questions with respect
to his Communist Party membership and Communist activities.
7. The director of negotiations of the United Public Workers of
America was, until July 1951, one Alfred Bernstein who was identified
as a Communist by a witness before the subcommittee. He testified
before the subcommittee in response to a subpena but declined to
answer questions with respect to his Communist Party membership
and Communist activities.
8. A witness before the subcommittee also identified Mr, Jack Bigel
and Mrs. Rose Russell, who are members of the executive board of
the United Public Workers of America, as Communists.
VIII SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
9. The membership of the United Public Workers of America
consists of approximately 30,000 to 35,000 persons who are employed
in local, State, and Federal Government agencies. An estimated
5 to 11 percent of the members are employed in the Federal Govern-
ment, principally in the Bureau of Engraving of the Treasury De-
partment, the Post Office Department and the Veteran's Adminis-
tration. There are about 100 local units of the organization. The
president, Abram Flaxer, failed and refused to comply with a subpena
and subsequent order of the subcommittee to produce before the sub-
committee the membership records of the organization.
10. The income of the national organization (as distinguished from
the income of the various locals) from dues is approximately $119,000
annually. The annual expenditures of the national organization in-
clude contributions to various Communist organizations and Com-
munist fronts, substantial organizing expenses ($41,708.70), and ap-
preciable allowances for "publicity and education." The annual al-
lowance for strike relief and charities is only $260.
11. Employees of the Immigration and Naturalization Service of
the Department of Justice who are members of the United Public
Workers of America in New York City have been engaged in demon-
strations against the deportation of certain aliens, have distributed
Communist handbills, and have circulated Communist peace petitions.
Indicative of this situation is the following testimony of Thomas J.
Philbin, an investigator of the Immigration and Naturalization Serv-
ice in New York City :
Mr. Arens. What does the United Public Workers of America do insofar as
there is any overt evident action in and around the Immigration Service?
Mr. Philbin. They distribute handbills outside the building. They join in
parades when they are involved, where there is a case involving a deportable
alien up for hearing during that day they will join during the lunch hour with a
group of paraders with placards.
Mr. Arens. You mean there are men employed in the Immigration and Natu-
ralization Service that are members of an organization which picket against
the deportation of aliens?
Mr. Philbin. Yes.
Senator O'Conor. In other words, they are actually people on the payroll of
the Federal Government who are really joining in protesting against the official
action of the Government?
Mr. Philbin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. May I have you glance at those handbills? I will say now for the
purpose of the record they have been provided in the course of the last hour or
so by another witness. I ask you if those are typical of the handbills distributed
by this United Public Workers organization?
Mr. Philbin. Yes, sir.
Senator O'Conor. Mr. Philbin, that is one of the most reprehensible things I
have ever heard of in the Government service. There certainly could be nothing
more outrageous, it seems to me, than an organization of Federal workers who
in combination would be seeking to nullify tlie pi-ovlsions of a law which is
being enforced by other Government agents. Is that not a fair statement?
Mr. Philbin. Yes. I would like to add that since the McCarran Act has gone
into effect they have ceased picketing in front of the building because it does
house the court.
Mr. Arens. The McCarran Act has a provision that has to do with certain
types of picketing of Federal courts?
Mr. Philbin. Yes, sir.
12. With ]-eference to the procurement or attempted procurement
on behalf of the Communist Party of confidential Government infor-
mation by members of the United Public Workers of America, the
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE "UPWA IX
following testimony of Abrani Flaxer, president of the organization,
is significant:
Mr. Connors. Have you ever put Communist Party leaders in touch with
people in Government agencies who have furnished them information of a classi-
fied nature?
Mr. Flaxer. Will you repeat that question again, please?
Mr. Connors. Have you put Communist Party leaders in touch with people in
Government agencies who have furnished those same Communist Party leaders
or other Communist Party members information of classified nature?
Mr. Flaxer. Do you want to be specific on that?
Mr. Connors. I think the question is specific enough.
Senator Watkins. Do you know what classified means?
Mr. Flaxer. Not too well, to be frank with you.
Senator Watkins. Classified means it is information that is held confidential
by the Government.
Mr. Fiaxee. And the question is that I put people in touch with people who had
that information. What are you trying to get at?
Mr. Connors. I can frame the question in a different way if you wish. Have
you ever discussed with Communist Party leaders or with Communist Party
members the availability of official information of the United States Govern-
ment through employees of various Government agencies?
Mr. Flaxer. I?
Mr. Connors. Yes.
Mr. Flaxer. I don't know what you are cooking up here, but I want to con-
sult with my attorney on this question.
(Consults with attorney.)
Mr. Flaxer. Mr. Chairman, this question has got particularly invidious im-
plications. Under the circumstances normally it would have been a simple
matter for me to give you an answer, but under the circumstances, and again
the way in wliich this thing is going, I find that I have to refuse to answer the
question because I fear that my answer to that might do something in the way
I would testify would be incriminating, and I guess I have to plead the privi-
lege of the fiifth amendment.
Senator Watkins. The record will show that you have been ordered and di-
rected to answer the question.
Mr. Flaxer. For the same reason, I just might add that this is one of those
filthy and dirty blows below the belt I resent.
Mr. Arens. If it weren't true, you could dispose of the question simply by
saying "No." ,
Senator Watkins. The only answer to it that we get, it is not spoken in
words, whatever it was you refused to answer in your own mind would in-
criminate you, and you say in effect that might put evidence against you of
some offense. That is exactly what it means to us.
Mr. Flaxer. I see where this thing is going. Go ahead.
Senator Watkins. He has refused to answer, and the record will so show.
Mr. Connors. Have you at any time discussed with Communist Party mem-
bers the possibility that people who are members of the United Public Workers
of America, and are also employed in agencies of the Federal Government,
might be available to act as couriers or purveyors or grantors of classified
Government information for the benefit of the Communist Party of this country
and for Soviet Eussia?
Mr. Flaxer. That is a similar question. That is filthy, dirty.
Mr. Connors. It is very simply answered ; "Yes" or "No."
Mr. Flaxer. Invidious.
Senator Watkins. If you have never had such a conversation or discussed it
with anyone, you can certainly say "No." On the other hand, if you have,
you will probably claim the privilege. That is the only way it will incriminate
you.
Mr. Fi^axer. Can I talk off the record on this?
Senator Watkins. Go ahead ; we are talking on the record.
Mr. Flaxer. On the record I refuse to answer for the grounds indicated.
Senator Watkins. The record will show that he has refused to answer after
he has been ordered and directed to do so. I repeat again you are directed
and ordered to answer that question.
Mr. Fl-AXER. I refuse on the same ground.
X SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
COMMENTS AND RECOMMENDATION
It should be a matter of deep concern to every patriotic American
that the United Public Workers of America, which is sustained by-
contributions from 30,000 to 35,000 members who are employed by
various units of government in this country, is under the control of
the Communist Party which is dedicated to the destruction of our
Government. The subcommittee doubts, however, that the majority
of the rank and file of the membership is cognizant of, or would
knowingly support, the Communist leadership of the organization.
The subcommittee expresses the hope that when the rank and file of
the membership of the United Public Workers of America learn
the truth concerning the Communist leadership of the organization,
they will take effective action to rout such leadership.
The subcommittee recommends that Abram Flaxer be proceeded
against for contempt of the Internal Security Subcommittee for fail-
ing and refusing to produce before the subcommittee the membership
records of the United Public Workers of America.
Herbert R, O'Conor, Chairman.
Pat McCarran.
Arthtjr V. Watkins.
Paet I
81 BYEESIYE CONTEOL OF THE UNITED PUBLIC
WORKERS OF AMERICA
FRIDAY, JULY 27, 1951
United States Senate,
Subcommittee To Investigate the Administration
or THE Internal Security Act and Other Internal
Security Laws of the Committee on the Judiciary,
Washington^ D. C.
The subcommittee met at 2 : 30 p. m., pursuant to call, in room P-36,
the Capitol, Hon. Herbert R. O'Conor (chairman of the subcommittee)
presiding.
Present : Senator O'Conor.
Also present: Richard Arens, staff director; Donald D. Connors,
Jr., investigator, and Mitchel M. Carter, investigator.
Senator O'Conor. Come to order, please.
Would you be kind enough to stand and raise your right hand and
be sworn ?
In the presence of Almighty God, do you swear that the testimony
you will give to this committee of the United States Senate shall be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth ?
Mrs. Heffner. I do.
Senator O'Conor. Thank you.
Proceed, Mr. Arens.
TESTIMONY OF BERNIECE B. HEFFNER, NATIONAL SECRETAEY-
TREASTJRER, AMERICAN FEDERATION OF GOVERNMENT EM-
PLOYEES
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly identify yourself by name and occu-
pation ?
Mrs. Heffner. I am Mrs. Berniece B. Heffner, national secretary-
treasurer of the American Federation of Government Employees.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly identify the American Federation of
Government Employees ?
Mrs. Heffner. The American Federation of Government Employees
is an affiliate of the American Federation of Labor.
Mr. Arens. Wlien was it organized ?
Mrs. Heffner. The American Federation of Government Employees
was chartered by the American Federation of Labor in August of
1932.
Mr. A.RENS. How long have you been connected with the American
Federation of Government Employees ?
2 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mrs. Heffner. I became a member of the American Federation of
Government Employees in tlie year 1934, and I was elected to the office
of secretary of the American Federation of Government Employees
in September of 1935.
Mr. Arens. And you have held the position of secretary-treasurer
since 1935 ; is that correct ?
Mrs. Heffner. I held the position of secretary from the year 1935
to 1946, at which time the offices of secretary and treasurer were com-
bined, and I became the secretary -treasurer of the American Federa-
tion of Government Employees.
Mr. Arens. I misunderstood you for a moment. Thank you.
Before we proceed with the subject matter concerning which I
understand you are prepared to give us some information, would you
give us just a word about the American Federation of Government
Employees ?
What is the organization? "What does it do? What are its com-
ponent units? Can you give just a general statement, if you please?
Mrs. Heffner. The American Federation of Government Em-
ployees is a Government employees' union affiliated with the American
Federation of Labor. Its membership is composed of civilian em-
ployees of the Federal Government. We have local lodges of the
organization in practically every State of the Union, in Alaska,
Hawaii, and the Panama Canal.
Our work primarily is legislative in nature, adjustments of griev-
ances of the members of the organization, and service to the lodges.
Mr. Arens. Who is the president of the American Federation of
Government Employees ?
Mrs. Heffner. Mr. James A. Campbell.
Mr. Arens. Is the American Federation of Government Employees
a federation of local units of Government employees ?
]\Irs. Heffner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. How is the voting on policy matters or on the election
of officers arrived at ? How is it determined ?
Mrs. Heffner. Under the provisions of the national constitution
of the organization, a convention is held biennially in whatever city
the delegates at the previous convention have selected. The local
lodges of the organization send delegates to the convention and their
vote is determined by their membership, and it is the vote of the
delegates at a convention that elects the officers or determines the
policies of the organization.
Mr. Arens. Is a member of one of the local lodges automatically a
member of the American Federation of Government Employees, or is
his membership confined to the local lodge?-
Mrs. Heffner. His membership would be through the local lodge
and, as such, he would be a member of the American Federation of
Government Employees.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly tell us now, please, Mrs. Heffner,
how a local unit of the American Federation of Government Em-
ployees becomes affiliated with the American Federation of Govern-
ment Employees?
Mrs. Heffner. Under the terms of the constitution of the American
Federation of Government Employees, it required 10 applicants to
petition for a charter in the organization.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE TJPWA 6
Mr. Arens. Then what happens after the petition is filed with the
American Federation of Government Employees ? -
Mrs. Heffner. The charter application is received in the national
office, and a temporary certificate of affiliation is issued. The lodge
operates under this temporary certificate of affiliation for a period of
6 months,
Mr. Arens. That is a probationary period ; is it ?
Mrs. Heffner. It is a probationary period of 6 months ; after which,
if all things concerning the lodge are regular, the lodge is then eligible
to receive a permanent charter.
Mr. Arens. Who makes the decision as to whether or not a petition-
ing unit, a prospective local of the American Federation of Govern-
ment Employees, shall be granted a temporary certificate ? Also, who
makes the decision as to whether or not the local, after the proba-
tionary period, shall be permanently affiliated with the organization?
Mrs. Heffner. The vice president of the district in which the local
lodge is located.
The American Federation of Government Employees is divided
into districts similar to the civil service districts of the Federal Gov-
ernment. For instance, if an application for charter is received from
a group of Federal employees in Detroit, Mich., the application for
cliarter must bear the approval of the national vice president of the
seventh district. It just so happens that the vice president of that
district is located in Chicago, but the seventh district comprises the
States of Michigan, Illinois, and Wisconsin. At the expiration of
6 months, the vice president is then again contacted for his recom-
mendation as to whether or not a permanent charter should issue to
this group, and if his approval is "yes," then a permanent charter is
ordered.
Mr. Arens. Does the convention of the American Federation of
Government Employees, which I understood you to say meets every
2 years, have power, under the charter of the American Federation
of Government Employees, to eject a local lodge from the American
Federation of Government Employees ?
Mrs. Heffner. Yes, sir. The convention of the organization is the
supreme governing body.
Mr. Arens. Were you present at the convention of the American
Federation of Government Employees held at Detroit, Mich., in 1936 ?
Mrs. Heffner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. At that time, you held what position ?
Mrs. Heffner. I was secretary of the American Federation of
Government Employees at that time.
Mr. Arens. Do you have with you the records of the minutes of
that convention held in Detroit in 1936, of the American Federation
of Government Employees?
Mrs. Heffner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Did you keep these minutes, by the way? Did you
prepare these minutes?
Mrs. Heffner. These minutes were prepared by an official re-
porter.
Mr. Arens. These minutes, then, are a transcript of the proceed-
ings ; is that correct ?
Mrs. Heffner. That is right.
4 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
]Mr. iVBENs. And they are the official transcript of the proceed-
in o^s ; are they ?
Mrs. Heffner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. And you are the official custodian of those minutes;
are you not?
Mrs. Heffner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. From those minutes, which you have before you now,
cap you furnish this subcommittee with information respecting the
rejection by the American Federation of Government Emplovees of
certification for permanent status of certain local lodges which were
at that time, in 1936, in a temporary status?
Mrs. Heffner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have I expressed the facts accurately in accordance
with the terminology of the union ? If I have not you may explain
them.
Mrs. Heffner. At the convention of the American Federation of
Government Employees in 1936, tliere were certain temporarily cer-
tificated lodges of the organization suspended. Some were sus-
pended for nonpayment of dues and others were suspended for cause.
Mr. Arens. Which of the locals were suspended for cause? Do
you have a list of those ?
Mrs. Heffner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly read those now into the record and
comment, on the basis of the official minutes which you have before
3^ou, on the reasons for the suspensions ?
Mrs. Heffner. Temporarily certificated Lodge No. 213, Farm
Credit Administration, in Washington, D. C.
Mr. Arens. That is one lodge ; is it ?
]\Irs. Heffner. That is the name of the lodge, sir.
Temporarily certificated Lodge No. 245, Securities and Exchange
Connnission, in Washington, D. C.
Temporarily certificated Lod,ge No. 247, Railroad Retirement
Board, Washington, D. C.
Temporarily certificated Lodge No. 249, Public Assistance Divi-
sion in the District of Columbia government, Washington, D. C.
Temporarily certificated Lodge No. 280, Social Security Board,
Washington, D. C.
Mr. Arens. Will you kindly express yourself now with reference
to the reason for the suspension from the American Federation of
Government Emploj^ees of these lodges which you have just named?
Mrs. Heffner. These lodges were suspended because of the fact
that they were engaging in activities which were deemed to be inimical
to the best interests of the American Federation of GoA^ernment Em-
ployees: issuing statements for publicit}^ purposes, which might ad-
versely affect legislation on the Hill in which the national office of
the American Federation of Government Employees was actively in-
terested; the holding of mass meetings which were deemed at that
particular time to be inimical to the best interests of the federation,
and because the leadership of these lodges were dominated by persons
holding membership in other lodges of the federation and joining in
propositions constituting unauthorized acts embarrassing to the fed-
eration and not designed to promote the best interests of Government
employees.
Mr. Arens. In the suspension of these lodges from the American
Federation of Government Employees, was there any indication of
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA O
Communist activity, Communist domination, Communist influence,
which precipitated the suspension ?
Mrs. Heffner. I would not care to say that there was Communist
influence, but I believe I could very conscientiously say that it was
felt that there was adverse influence and that they may have been
directed in some of their activities by adverse unknown sources.
There was a general feeling that these groups were being dominated
by something other than the spirit of true Americanism.
Mr. Arens. But you did not know and your associates did not
know at the time, back in 1936, just specifically what that influence
was ; is that correct ?
Mrs. Heffner. I think that is substantially correct, sir.
Mr. Arens. With reference to the Lodge 245, the Securities and
Exchange Commission Lodge, do the minutes of the convention of
the American Federation of Government Employees of 1936 reflect
any evidence of influence or participation by a Communist ?
Mrs. Heffner. Yes, sir. The statement with respect to temporarily
certificated Lodge No. 245, Securities and Exchange Commission,
Washington, D. C., reads as follows.
Mr. Arens. Are you reading from the minutes of the convention,
are you ?
Mrs. Heffner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. And who is speaking?
Mrs. Heffner. National Treasurer Custer was reading the reports
of the lodges mentioned above.
Mr, Arens. The lodges which were suspended ?
Mrs. Heffner. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Read that statement, if you i^lease.
Mrs. Heffner (reading) :
It lias been necessary to object on numerous occasions to participation in the
affairs of this group by an individual Icnown to have held membership in the
Communist Party of America. From the performance of the leadersliip of this
lodge, it is apparent that it is not a truly representative group of the employees
of the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Mr. Arens. And that lodge was suspended ?
Mrs. Heffner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now, may I invite your attention to any situation, as
reflected in the minutes, respecting a lodge which was actually ex-
pelled from the American Federation of Government Employees?
Do you have an account of that in the minutes?
Mrs. Heffner. Yes, sir.
]Mr. Arens. What lodge was that?
Mrs. Heffner. That was lodge No. 21, Department of Justice,
Washington, D. C.
Mr. Arens. Now, just proceed at your own pace, if you please, to
lay before the committee the facts, as reflected in the official minutes
of the American Federation of Government Employees. May I sug-
gest to you, if you please, that where practicable, you quote the exact
language of the minutes so that the record of the committee will be in
complete conformity to the record which you have before you ?
Mrs. Heffner. On page 117 of the minutes of the 1936 convention
of the American Federation of Government Employees is the subject,
Suspension of Department of Justice Lodge No. 21.
Beginning on July 15, 1936, and continuing through July 21, 1936,
members of Department of Justice Lodge No. 21 indulged in activity
6 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
deemed to constitute violations of the constitution of the American
Federation of Government Employees. Due to this unconstitutional
activity, charges were preferred against the lodge.
Charge No. 1 was violation of the constitution of the American
Federation of Government Employees in that the}^ picketed the office
of the Attorney General of the United States.
Mr. Arens. Was it found that they did actually picket the office
of the Attorney General of the United States? You say that was the
charge. Was it found that they did do it ?
Mrs. Heffner. The distribution of notices was deemed by the na-
tional council to constitute picketing under the terms of the national
constitution.
Mr. Arens. Proceed with your next point, if you please.
Mrs. Heffner. Charge No. 2 was violation of the constitution under
article XI, section 3. Under this charge the lodge was accused of pur-
porting to adopt measures at an o])en meeting attended by at least one
member of the press, which actions wei-e calculated to have an adverse
effect upon the legislative program of the American Federation of
Government Employees.
Charge No. o was the violation of the constitution, article II, section
3, in issuing and distributing publications without the consent of the
executive council and engaging in public controversies and sponsoring
a mass public meeting in a manner designed to bring the AFGE into
disrepute and embarrass the Government.
At this public meeting and during the course of this meeting, there
was a certain dialogue held between Bennett Mead, the presiding offi-
cer and member of lodge No. 21, and a hooded or masked figure;
during the course of whicli. words were spoken and actions taken which
did then and there not only bring the AFGE into disrepute but would
embarrass the Government. Those were the charges.
And later in the convention and during the convention in 1936, the
lodge Avas given a trial and the delegates upheld the actions of the
national council in expelling lodge No. 21 from the federation.
Mr. Arens. Do you have information respecting what happened to
the lodges which were suspended from the American Federation of
Government Employees at the convention in 1936 ?
Mrs. Heffner. Certain members of the suspended lodges later be-
came members of the United Federal Workers of America, CIO.
Mr. Connors. Then your testimony, Mrs. Heifner, is that after they
were expelled from the AFGE they continued a separate existence for
some time and applied to the CIO for charters ; is that substantially
correct ?
Mrs. Heffner. Yes, sir. They were suspended from the American
Federation of Government Employees in September of 1936. To the
best of my recollection, I believe the United Federal Workers of Amer-
ica were chartered by the Congress of Industrial Organizations early
in the year of 1937.
Mr. Connors. Then this organization was known for a time as the
UFWA, is that correct?
Mrs. Heffner. I am quite sure that was first their name when they
were chartered by the CIO.
Mr. Connors. What name did tliey later use?
Mrs. Heffner. United Public Workers of America.
Mv. Connors. Commonly called the UPWA?
Mrs. Heffner. That is riffht.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 7
Mr. Connors. Then your testimony, in substance, is that this group
of lodges which was expelled by the AFGE was later chartered to
form the UFWA, which same organization later became known as
UPWA?
Mrs. Heffner, Yes, sir. Certain members of these suspended
lodges did become members of the UFWA later, I wouldn't want
to say that the entire membership of the lodges that were suspended
by the AFGE became members of the UFWA, but certain of the
members of those lodges did.
Mr. Connors. With respect to the expelled lodges, certain of the
rank-and-file members came back into AFGE later on under separate
or different lodges; is that correct?
Mrs. Heffner. Yes, sir ; because the lodges had been dominated by
the undesirable element, and those members who were loyal and true
members of the American Federation of Government Employees
came back to the organization after this undesirable element had been
suspended.
Mr. Connors. Then it was just this residue, this undesirable element
that went over to CIO to obtain the charter you spoke of a moment
ago; is that correct?
Mrs. Heffner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Connors. Do your records show the names of any of the people
who represented these lodges at the time of their expulsion ?
Mrs. Heffner. While the complete record is not readily available,
I do have the names of the officers of the temporarily certificated
lodge No. 245, the Securities and Exchange Commission, Washing-
ton, D. C. The president was Milton Freeman, the secretary was
Rebecca Katz, and the treasurer was M. H. Nagles.
Mr. Connors. Those persons were all employed at the Securities
and Exchange Commission at that time, is that correct?
Mrs. Heffner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Connors. Mrs. Heffner. were the following persons ever af-
filiated with the AFGE :
First, Abraham Flaxer?
Mrs. Heffner. The American Federation of Government Employees
was the organization that did the initial work in organizing the
American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees,
and Mr. Flaxer was a member of the American Federation of State,
County, and Municipal Employees.
Mr. Connors. The American Federation of Government Employees,
then, undertook to do the organization for this group with which
Mr. Flaxer was connected, is that right ?
Mrs. Heffner. That is right.
Mr. Connors. What happened to the loose affiliation between the
AFGE and this group of ]Mr. Flaxer's ; what was the ultimate outcome
of that?
Mrs. Heffner. It was at this 1936 convention of the American
Federation of Government Employees that the American Federation
of State, County, and Municipal Emploj^ees were disaffiliated from
the AFGE, and they held their first convention the day after our 1936
convention closed.
Mr. Connors. What was the reason for this disaffiliaiion ?
Mrs. Heffner. They had been given a permanent charter under
their own name from the American Federation of Labor.
92838— 5:i 2
8 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Connors. In other words, their jurisdiction was not over-
lapping with yours; is that correct?
Mrs. Heffner. That is true. We had only the Federal civilian
personnel and they constituted the civilian personnel of the State,
county, and municipal governments.
Mr. Connors. The next person I want to ask you about with respect
to the same category is Al Bernstein.
Mrs. Heffner. To the best of my knowledge, I don't recall that
name.
Mr. Connors. And the third person I want to ask you about is ]SIr.
Ewart Guinier.
Mrs. Heffner. I don't recall that name, Mr. Connors.
Mr. Connors. You are appearing here under subpena, are you, Mrs.
Heffner?
Mrs. Heffner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Connors. And the subpena requested you to bring on the
minutes from which you are quoting; is that right?
Mrs. Heffner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Connors. Mrs. Heffner, do you have some information with
respect to individuals who left the AFGE and later affiliated them-
selves with the organizations which were expelled and which later
formed the UFWA?
Mrs. Heffner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Connors. Can you name some of those individuals?
Mrs. Heffner. Eleanor Nelson, Henry Rhine, Arthur Stein, Janet
Gaines.
Mr. Connors. Since the expulsion of tliese temporarily certificated
lodges, Mrs. Heffner, has any information come to your attention
from public sources that the UFWA, later the UPWA, was Com-
munist-infiltrated or Communist-dominated ?
Mrs. Heffner. The only thing that I could say, Mr. Connors, would
be that it would appear to have been so from the reports of the public
press.
Mr. Connors. Mrs. Heffner, to your best knowledge, would the
records of the CIO show the names of the individuals to whom charters
wei'e granted in connection with the four temporarily certificated
lodges which you expelled? I I'ealize that you do not know exactly
what is in the CIO records, but I am just asking you in view of your
experience with labor unions.
Mrs. Heffner. I imagine they would, if they have records set up
such as the records of the AFGE.
Mrs. Connors. Again, to the best of your knowledge, would the
names on the CIO charters be identical with the names of those officers
of the temporarily certificated lodges which you expelled at your
1936 convention ?
Mrs. Heffner. I wouldn't have any knowledge of that, Mr.
Connors.
Mr. Connors. Do you have anything else which you think might
be of interest or value to the committee now, INIrs. Heffner ?
Mrs. Heffner. To the best of my knowledge, I have given you the
gist of everything that our official records show.
Mr. Connors. Thank you very much for your testimony, and you
are released from your subpena.
(Whereupon, at 3 : 30 p. m., the hearing was i-ecessed subject to the
call of the Chair.)
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UNITED PUBLIC
WORKERS OF AMERICA
THURSDAY, AUGUST 9, 1951 '
United States Senate,
SuBCOMlVriTTEE To INVESTIGATE THE ADMINISTRATION
OF THE Internal Security Act and Other Internal
Security Laws, of the Committee of the Judiciary,
Washington^ D. G.
The subcommittee met at 2 p. m., pursuant to call, in room P-36 of
the Capitol, Senator Herbert R. O'Conor presiding.
Present: Senator O'Conor (presiding).
Also present: Richard Arens, staff director; Mitchel M. Carter,
investigator; and Donald D. Connors, Jr., investigator.
Senator O'Conor. The subcommittee will be in order.
May I ask you to be sworn ?
In the presence of Almighty God, do you swear the testimony you
will give to this subcommittee of the Judiciary Committee of the
United States Senate is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. I do.
Senator O'Conor. Will you proceed, Mr. Arens.
TESTIMONY OF VIVIAN WHITE SOBOLESKI, NEW YORK CITY, N. Y.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly identify yourself by name and place
of residence ?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. Vivian White Soboleski. I reside at 37 Overlook
Terrace, New York City.
Mr. Arens. Where were you born?
Mrs. Soboleski. Exeter, N. H.
Mr. Arens. And would you kindly give us, for the benefit of the
record, a brief resume of your education, and activity since the term-
ination of your formal education ?
Mrs. Soboleski. My early education took place in Exeter, N, H. ;
I lived there until I was 16 years of age, and then my parents moved
away from there and came to New York City. I think my final year
of schooling, high schooling, was in the Manual Training High School
in Brooklyn, from which I entered Hunter College.
I graduated in June of 1928 with my degree and training for teach-
ing in the New York City system. I took my teacher's license examina-
tion at that time, and due to the long list of unemployed teachers at
that period, I had to wait until February of 1932 for my first appoint-
ment in the city system.
9
10. SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Up until that time, I think I had one job in the Federal Keserve-
bank as a clerical worker, in New York City. I would say that termi-
nated about 1930, because in February 1931 I got my first job as a
substitute, and the following year I was regularly appointed in the
New York City system.
Mr. Arens. Have you continuously, since 1931, been employed?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. Yes ; by the board of education.
Mr. Arens. In the school system of New York City ?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arexs. When and where were you married ?
Mrs. Soboleski. I was married in the Bronx, N. Y., in June of
1928.
Mr. Arens. And that was to whom ?
Mrs. Soboleski. Abram Flaxer, F-1-a-x-e-r.
Mr. Arens. Could you, for the purpose of the record, at this time
identify Mr. Abram Flaxer?
Mrs. Soboleski. He is the present president of the United Public
Workers of America.
Mr. Arens. How long did you and Mr. Flaxer live together as
husband and wife ?
Mrs. Soboleski. Exactly 10 years.
Mr. Arens. Then what happened ?
Mrs. Soboleski. Well, in September, during the Labor Day week
end of 1938, he told me he felt that because of the nature of his work
and his activities, his marriage to me was a relationship impossible for
him to continue. He was interested in another woman. So we sepa-
rated.
Mr. Arens. Were you divorced from Mr. Flaxter then?
Mrs. Soboleski. No. We were living together up to that point.
Our divorce took place 2 years later, but we were not living together
after that time, September 1938.
Mr. Arens. But you were divorced from Mr. Flaxer in about 1940 ?
Mrs. Soboleski. Yes ; in June of 1940.
Mr. Arens. Were any children born of your marriage with Mr,
Flaxer?
Mrs. Soboleski. None.
Mr. Arens. And when were you married to your present husband ?
IMrs. Soboleski. In 1947 ; September 12, 1947.
Mr. Arens. His name is what, if you please ?
Mrs. Soboleski. Joseph Soboleski.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Soboleski, you are appearing today in response to
a subpena served upon you by the Internal Security Subcommittee ?
Mrs. Soboleski. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly state, for the benefit of the record, in
resume form, the education, and in chronological form, if you please,
the vocations or occupations of Mr. Abram Flaxer?
Mi-s. Soboleski. At the time I met him, he had just finished New
York Law School and had decided at that point that he did not wish
to continue and practice law. At that time we had planned to marry,
and he told me he was interested in mathematics, and he would liKe
very much to go back to that field and study further and get his A. B.
He had left the College of the City of New York to go and attend New
York Law School.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 11
Since I was going into the teaching profession, we agreed he would
go back and take his A. B. in mathematics, and then do his o^raduate
-work in that subject. After our marriage, he started to do that. We
lived in New York City, I think at 63 Hamilton Terrace, while he was
attending CCNY.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly identify that period by date?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. 1929 and 1930. And he graduated in 1932, and I
can check back on that and get those records at home.
Mr. Arens. I just wanted the approximate date, and I think that
that would be satisfactory.
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. Following his completion of undergraduate work
he took some graduate work at Columbia that summer, in mathema-
tics. At that time he met and joined a Marxist study group. Since
that was at the time of general unemployment, and employment pos-
sibilities did not seem rosy in the teaching profession, he decided to
give up any attempt to get into the teaching, profession, and accepted
a job as a social investigator with what was then, I think, the depart-
ment of welfare in the city of New York.
Mr. Arens. Would you pause right there, if you please. What was
this Marxist study group which your husband, your then husband,
Mr. Abram Flaxer, joined?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. It was a social group devoted to the study of Marx-
ist doctrine — the leading spirit of which was Maurice Schappes, an in-
structor at CCNY.
Mr. Arens. Did you belong to that group ?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. I attended several of the meetings. They occurred
once a week on Sunday night and were very stimulating. The men
conducting it were of very high intellectual caliber and all fine stu-
dents. Two of them were on the faculty of CCNY. This was in the
nature, to me, of a stimulating summer activity. Following that series
of meetings, at the close of the summer session we went away from
the city for about 2 weeks on a vacation. At the end of the 2 weeks,
Mr. Flaxer announced to me he was planning to join the Communist
Party. He was utterly convinced of the validity of its theory and
philosophy, and he felt that that was the thing for him to do : to get
into, and work in it.
Mr. Arens. Did he join the Communist Party ?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. Yes.
Mr. Arens. What unit or branch or cell of the Communist Party
•did Mr. Flaxer join?
Mrs. Soboleski. I would say he joined a cell in the Bronx.
Mr. Arens. Now, did you join any branch or cell of the Communist
Party?
Mrs. Soboleski. At that time, no.
Mr. Arens. You did subsequently ?
Mrs. Soboleski. Much later.
Mr. Arens. What period of time was that ?
Mrs. Soboleski. That was 1937, I think. It might have been as
«arly as 1936. I can place that, at home, by records that I have of
my own.
Mr. Arens. I want you to be absolutely certain on what you say
with reference to the joining by Mr. Flaxer of the Communist Party
in 1935. How do you know that Mr. Flaxer joined a unit of the Com-
munist Party in 1935 ?
12 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mrs. SoBOLESKT. He told me lie was joining, and he told me sub-
sequently that he had joined under the name "John Brant," as a party
name.
Mr. Arens. Did you at any time see his party card?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. I cannot say at what specific occasion, but I know
I saw it at some time following his announcement, probably within
months.
Mr. Arens. How often did he attend the meetings of this Commu-
nist unit which you say he joined in 1935?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. Well, the obligatory meeting was once a week,
every Tuesday ; and, in addition, there were many other party meet-
ings which he had to attend, relating to his union work.
Mr. Arens. Would you go ahead, if you please, and trace his em-
ployment activities, aside from his connection with the Communist
cell, if you please?
Mrs. Soboleski. He was investigator for the welfare department
of the city of New York.
Mr. Arens, And the date, please, approximately?
Mrs. Soboleski. The same time.
Mr. Arens. About 1935?
Mrs. Soboleski. Yes. I think that that can be traced in the records
as to when that was.
Mr. Arens. Proceed, if you please.
Mrs. Soboleski. He immediately became very active in the union,
in his local office of the Bronx.
Mr. Arens. What union was that?
Mrs. Soboleski. At that time it was the union in the department
of welfare.
Mr, Arens. Was it the welfare workers' union, or something similar
to that?
Mrs. Soboleski. Yes.
Mr. Arens, Now, proceed, if you please.
Mrs. Soboleski, I remember very early he told me that the presi-
dent of the union at that time was a man by the name of Davis, and
he was an A. F. of L. man, and considered very much in disrepute
with them as not being militant enough, and so forth. He told me
frankly that they were going to oust him at the next election.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Flaxer told you ?
Mrs. Soboleski. That he and his unit, and the faction in the union,
were going to oust him at the coming election,
Mr, Arens. By "the faction in the union," you mean
Mrs, Soboleski. The Communist Party members of the union. He
did not work in the neighborhood much, since he worked in his union
with other party members in the union, who were also investigators.
Mr. Arens, Proceed, if you please, with his employment activities.
Mrs. Soboleski. He remained as an investigator until
Mr. Arens. Until when?
Mrs. Soboleski. He was made — that is, he won the election and
became president of the welfare workers' union there, the social
workers' union.
Mr. Arens. When was that, if you please ?
Mrs. Soboleski. I would say 1936 ; that is close to it.
Mr. Arens. All right ; proceed, if you please.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 13
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. Soon after, John L. Lewis was anxious to enlarge
the membership of the white-colhir workers, and he offered them a
charter, a CIO charter, which they were glad to accept.
Mr. Arens. By "they," I assume you are referring to the group
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. The executive board of the union, in which the
Communist Party group controlled the policies.
Mr. Arens. The union of social investigators in New York City?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. Yes, of that local union.
Mr. Arens. Of which Mr. Flaxer was president?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. Yes.
The offer was made and accepted of a charter. Mr. Flaxer came
down to Washington as the first national president of the SCMWA.
Mr. Arens. What does that stand for?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. State, County, and Municipal Workers of America.
Mr. Arens. And your then husband, Mr. Flaxer, was the president
of that organization ?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Proceed, if you please.
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. He had given up his employment as a social in-
vestigator as soon as he became president of the New York local, feel-
ing that the pressure of the work in the union was too important and
took up too much of his time. He resigned from the welfare de-
partment.
Mr. Arens. Was he a full-salaried man then as president of this
union ?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. At that time he became a salaried individual ; and
from that point on, until the time I parted from him, he was the paid
official of the union, the State, County, and Municipal Workers of
America.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Soboleski, the State, County, and Municipal
Workers of America was the predecessor organization to the United
Public Workers of America ?
Mrs. Soboleski. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Of which Mr. Abram Flaxer is now president ; is that
correct ?
Mrs. Soboleski. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. When did you join the Communist Party?
Mrs. Soboleski. Shortly after — as soon as my husband became
active in the party, I realized that my home life and my married life
and all plans for our future were just about ready to collapse, be-
cause I practically didn't see him. He left early in the morning and
he attended meetings all of the time, including dinner meetings and
night meetings. It was a succession of one meeting after the other,
I was left quite lonesome.
After several months, at the advice of my family physician, I was
urged to try to make myself busy and active and participate with him
in his work in an effort to try to keep going whatever relationship we
had had. Since I couldn't join his union, I became active in the teach-
ers' union in New York City. Very shortly after, I joined the party
cell in the teachers' union.
Mr. Arens. How do you identify the cell which you joined?
Mrs. Soboleski. They were the Communist Party members func-
tioning in the Teachers Union of New York City.
14 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Arens. How did you know that there was such a group in New
York City?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. Being Flaxer's wife, it was assumed that I was
close to the party. I was introduced to people, and I knew of people
who worked closely with him in his work. Such a man as Isadore
Begun, who was considered Communist head of the white-collar
workers, was a member of the teachers' union at that time. He has
been expelled since. Many of these people have since been put out of
the New York City system.
There were other members whom I came in contact with as friends.
Mr. Arens. Did your then husband, Mr. Flaxer, go to any of the
cell meetings with you?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. None. We never attended meetings together.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever attend any of the meetings of the Com-
munist cell of which he was a member ?
Mrs. Soboleski. None. Party members were in my home at various
times, discussing policy and plans with him, and I sometimes was told
so-and-so is a member, and sometimes I assumed it or just felt that he
was a sympathetic person.
Mr. Arens. How long Avere you in this Communist Party cell ?
Mrs. Soboleski. I was there about 6 months.
Mr. Arens. And then what happened?
Mr. Soboleski. I simply felt that the pressure of too many meetings,
the type of work — namely, the duplicity of the position I had to main-
tain in relation to my colleagues at school ; the absolute double position
on all political problems of supporting the party line on one hand
and maintaining my loyalty to the Government of the United States on
the other hand — got me to such a point of conflict where I just had
to give it up.
Mr. Arens. Did you pay dues into the Communist Party?
Mrs. Soboleski. I must have; yes. We were assessed, but I don't
remember what they were at that time. My membership was rather
brief ; and, because that whole period was one of such strain and dis-
tress for me, I really can't remember.
Mr. Arens. Did your husband pay dues?
Mrs. Soboleski. He was required to pay the dues.
• Mr. Arens. Does the name Isadore Blumberg prompt any recollec-
tion to your mind ?
, Mrs. Soboleski. He was legislative representative of the union, to
the social workers' union in New York City, and a union member.
Mr. Arens. Of which your husband was president?
Mrs! Soboleski. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not he was a Communist?
Mrs. Soboleski. He was.
Mr. Arens. Does the name "Henry Wenning" prompt any recollec-
tion to you ?
Mrs. Soboleski. I believe he was vice president of the union for a
period of time, just prior to 1938 — I would say in 1937 or 1938 — and I
know he was a party member.
Mr. Arens. By "party member," you mean a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mrs. Soboleski. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Does the name "Ewart Guinier" prompt any recollec-
tion to your mind ?
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPW^A 15
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. The name is familiar to me as someone very close
to my husband in his work.
Mr. Arens. Was there a man who may be more easily identified by
reference to him as a Negro by the name of Ewart Guinier ; does that
prompt any recollection to your mind ?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. No. The name is familiar, but I never saw the
person, and I never met the person ; whereas the other two individuals
I knew personally.
Mr. Arens. Harry Sacher?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. At the time my husband was in Washington, he
was an adviser, legal adviser.
Mr. Arens. He was legal adviser to what?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. To the CIO union at that time.
Mr. Arens. Of which your husband was president ?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not he was a member of the
Communist Party?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. I couldn't say, but I know he was someone who
would give sympathetic advice.
Mr. Arens. Does the name "Saul Mills" prompt any recollection
to your mind ?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. He, too, was a close adviser to my husband at that,
period in Washington, D. C.
Mr. Arens. While your husband was president of this union?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Have you seen the Communist Party card of Abram
Flaxer?
Mrs. Soboleski. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And you identify him, do you, as a member of the
Communist Party?
Mrs. Soboleski. I do, up until the time we separated.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any information which would lead you to
believe that he has disassociated himself from the Communist Party?
Mrs. Soboleski. None, nothing. The best way to judge is by a
person's activities, because, if a person who has been an active member
in a Communist-controlled union, as a Communist, disassociates him-
self from the party, I doubt whether he could remain in a position of
importance or as an officer, because frequently — and in this case I
know — the union voting machinery was controlled by the party mem-
bers in the union. Mr. Flaxer often made the latter statement to me.
Mr. Arens. Now, who all, to your recollection, would come to your
home or have contact with the Communist group or was in the Com-
munist group of which your husband was a member? And by "your
husband," I am referring to Mr. Flaxer.
Mrs. Soboleski. Communist union members. The main business
of the union and of the party were conducted elsewhere, at designated
meeting places.
Mr. Arens. Do you have information respecting the aggregate num-
ber of members of the organization of which your husband was then
president, the State, County, and Municipal Workers of America, as
of the time he was president of it ?
Mi^. Soboleski. A rough estimate at that time would have been^
I should say, 30,000, but I doubt whether it ever rose to that figure.
Mr. Arens. What do you mean ?
16 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. Well, I feel that there was a great deal of exagger-
ation and optimism among the union officers, and I think they always
■exaggerated their membership.
Mr. Arens. I do not believe the record is quite clear with reference
to your appraisal of the State, County, and Municipal Workers of
America, from the standpoint of Communist control.
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. The union which was the springboard in getting
the CIO charter was the New York local. Mr. Flaxer called it his
^'powerhouse."
Mr. Arens. Of the State, County, and Municipal Workers of
America ?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. Yes, even though it had a different name until it
was chartered by John L. Lewis. At the time he offered them tlie
charter, or they applied for it, the Communist Party faction in the
union was the active controlling element in the union. It was those
persons who designated candidates and who. influenced the voting
membership because of their terrific zeal and their ability to sw^ay and
persuade the memb-ership, and the tremendous amount of time that
they gave to this work : something that the average member could not
compete with nor give.
When they determined to oust the incumbent at that time as presi-
dent, Mr. Davis, because he was not acceptable to them, they sat down
and worked out plans to that end, and by incessant labor and working
in the union, and meeting in small cells and meeting in groups, they
were able to lead the union meetings from the floor and bring up the
motions and get the things^ going as planned by them in advance.
The union members followed them because they were the most militant.
The average union members are not as articulate or aggressive.
Mr. Arens. Who was associated with your husband in the organiza-
tion which preceded the State, County and Municipal Workers of
America?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. I can mention definitely two names, Isadore Blum-
berg, and Sam Sorkin, who was a member of the executive board at
that time.
Mr. Arens. Do you identify both of those gentlemen as Com-
munists ?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall the official position which they held with
the organization which w^as the predecessor to the State, County and
Municipal Workers of America ?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. Sam Sorkin was an executive board member, and
later head of the New York branch when Mr. Flaxer went down to
Washington ; and Isadore Blumberg always functioned as a legislative
representative.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall the names of the persons who were asso-
ciated with Mr. Flaxer in the State, County and Municipal Workers
of America, which as I understand succeeded the organization of office
workers ?
Mrs. Soboleski. Henry Wenning was his assistant, I know, an office
holder and the vice president.
I didn't know too much about the Washington staff, because by that
time I was living in New York and continuing my profession as a
teacher, Mr. Flaxer was here, in Washington.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 17
Mr. Arens. And you have identified Mr. Wenning as a one-time
member of the Communist Party.
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not Mr. Flaxer, while you were
married to him, visited the Communist Party headquarters in New
York City?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. Yes, he frequently had conferences there pertaining
to his work.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Soboleski, did Mr. Flaxer, to your knowledge, ever
publicly admit his Communist Party membership ?
Mrs. Soboleski. No, he never did, feeling that it would hamper
his Work and interfere wdth the recruiting in the union. And it w^as
also party policy that he not appear as a party member.
Mr. Arens. What is your appraisal of the reason for the party
policy that Mr. Flaxer not publicly admit his Communist Party
membership ?
Mrs. Soboleski. The party always felt it benefited by having people
prominent in public life agree with their policies on many current
issues. The party always felt its position was bolstered by having
IDeople in public life, not party members, agree with the Communist
Party line, so it could not be labeled as the Communist Party position.
Mr. Arens. Did your then husband, Mr. Flaxer, have conferences, to
your knowledge, with Mr. Isadore Begun ?
Mrs. Soboleski. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly identify Mr. Begun ?
Mrs. Soboleski. I think Mr. Begun was district organizer of the
work among the white collar classes in New York City.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Soboleski, while your husband was president of
the State, County and Municipal Workei-s of America, the predecessor
organization to the United Public Workers of America, of which he
is now president, do you have information respecting the number of
Communists who were in the State, County and Municipal Workers
of America ?
Mrs. Soboleski. I can speak only for the New York local, and I
would say that there were several hundred.
Mr. Arens. But they controlled the organization, is that correct?
Mrs. Soboleski Yes.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Soboleski, did Mr. Abram Flaxer remarry after
you and he were divorced?
Mrs. Soboleski. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And whom did he marry, and when, if you please?
Mrs. Soboleski. He married Charlotte Rossweig.
Mr. Arens. When was that ?
Mrs. Soboleski. It was after 1940. I can't give you the exact date.
I don't know how soon after 1940.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Soboleski, what were the grounds for your divorce
from Mr. Flaxer?
Mrs. Soboleski. I sued Mr. Flaxer for adultery, and he admitted
to me that he was living with Charlotte Rossweig.
Mr. Arens. And did he subsequently marry her after you had
divorced him?
Mrs. Soboleski. Yes, sir.
18 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Arens. Was she active in his union ?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Prior to the time that you divorced Mr. Flaxer ?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Soboleski, I don't believe the record shows wherei^
Mr. Flaxer was born and his approximate age.
Mrs. Soboleski. He was born in 1903 or 1904 in Russia.
Mr. Arens. Wlien did he come to the United States?
Mrs. Soboleski. As I recall, or as I was told, he came as a young boy,
a very young child.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not he has ever gone under any
other name beside the name Abram Flaxer or "Brant," which I believe
you have identified as his party name?
Mrs. Soboleski. No.
Mr. Arens. Did he ever change his name legally ?
Mrs. Soboleski. No.
Mr. Arens. Didn't he change his name from "Abraham" to-
"Abram"?
Mrs. Soboleski. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Now, this organization of the State, County and Mu-
nicipal Workers of America, merged with the United Federal Work-
ers to form the United Public Workers of America, of which Mr.
Flaxer is now president; is that correct?
Mrs. Soboleski. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not Mr. Flaxer ever attended
any meetings of the national executive committee of the Communist
Party?
Mrs. Soboleski. I couldn't say, but I do know he attended many
meetings of the secret meetings of the Communist Party in New York
City.
Mr. Arens. By "secret meetings," I assume you mean, and if I am
in error please correct me, meetings of the higher echelon in the Com-
munist Party, which were not open to the run-of-the-mill people of the
party ?
Mrs. Soboleski. Yes ; as it pertained to his work, and as it pertained
to the work of organizing and union work.
Mr. Connors. Mrs. Soboleski, can you name some of the other mem-
bers of the Marxist study group that you mentioned previously ?
Mrs. Soboleski. Maurice Schappes was the leading spirit, and
Arnold Schukatoff. Both were instructors at the College of the City
of New York.
Mr. Connors. Can you recall the identity of any other individuals
who were members of that study group ?
Mrs. Soboleski. David and Sophie Silver, whom I never saw after
that, they attended and then dropped out of the picture.
Mr. Connors. Anyone else?
Mrs. Soboleski. I can't remember any other names.
Mr. Connors. To the best of your knowledge, were those people in
attendance at those meetings also members of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Soboleski. Only those mentioned above, either at that time of
the study group, or within a few months, because that was the turning
point in their political history.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 19
Mr. Connors. It was more or less a preparation for membership in
the Communist Party?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. Yes, and they decided definitely thereafter to join
the party.
Mr. Connors. At what period during your marriage with Mr.
Flaxer did he have offices in Washington, D. C. ?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. During the years 1937 and 1938.
Mr. Connors. And do you recall any persons here in Washington
with whom he associated during that period ?
Mrs. SoBOLESKi. No; not other than those I mentioned. I had no
contact with the Washington office, either socially or any other way.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Soboleski, we deeply appreciate your cooperation
with the subcommittee and your testimony today, and you will be re-
leased from your subpena.
Mrs. Soboleski. Thank you.
(Whereupon, at 3 : 20 p. m., the hearing was recessed.)
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UNITED PUBLIC
WORKERS OF AMERICA
THURSDAY, AUGUST 23, 1951
United States Senate,
Subcommittee To Investigate the Administration
OF THE Internal Security Act and Other Internal
Security Laws of the Committee on the Judiciary,
Washington, D. C.
The subcommittee met at 10 a. m., pursuant to recess, in room 424
Senate Office Building, Senator Pat McCarran (chairman) presiding.
Present: Senators McCarran, O'Conor, Smith, Ferguson, and
Watlvins.
Also present: Representative Kersten; J. G. Sourwine, committee
counsel; Robert Morris, subcommittee counsel; Benjamin Mandel,
research director.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
FURTHER TESTIMONY OF LOUIS FRANCIS BUDENZ,
CRESTWOOD, N. Y.
Mr, Connors. Mr. Budenz, you have previously been sworn ?
Mr. Budenz. Yes.
Mr. Connors. Mr. Budenz, I invite your attention to a union known
as the UPAVA and ask you if you Imow a man named Abram Flaxer
who is the titular head of that union.
Mr. Budenz. Yes, sir. I have met Mr. Flaxer as a Communist and
know him to be such.
Mr. Connors. Mr. Budenz, to the best of your knowledge, does Mr.
Flaxer consult with Communist Party leadership with respect to the
way he rules the union ?
Mr. Budenz. During the time I was a member of the party, he con-
stantly consulted with them. He was even reprimanded by them
and disciplined by them.
Mr. Connors. Did he, to the best of your knoAvledge, follow the
advice of the Communist Party leaders and extend that advice into his
management of union affairs?
Mr. Budenz. He did.
Mr. Connors. Did his union have a large number of members from
various Government agencies?
Mr. Budenz. It did.
Mr. Connors. Could ^ovl just approximately, Mr. Budenz, place the
time of your association with Mr. Flaxer?
21
22 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. BuDENz. I was in the Communist Party from 1935 to 1945, I
should say that I can say definitely at this moment that I knew Mr.
Flaxer definitely as a Communist from 1940 to 1945. It may be that
upon further recollection I can even place him during the entire period
of my membership as a Communist, but at the moment I will say 1940
to 1945. That is definite.
Mr. Connors. Mr. Budenz, continuing with the United Public
Workers of America, was there a man with that union known as Ewart
Guinier ?
Mr. Budenz. Yes, sir.
Mr. Connors. And what information have you with respect to Mr.
Guinier ?
Mr. Budenz. I am uncertain whether I have met Mr. Guinier,
though I believe that I have, but extensive official communications
to me as managing editor of the Daily Worker lead me very definitely
to say that that official information was tliat he was a Communist.
Mr. Connors. You here and now identify, to the best of your
knowledge, Mr. Guinier as a Communist Party member ?
Mr. Budenz. That is correct. It may even be — and that is my im-
pression upon further recollection — that I could even state that I
knew him as such.
The reason I have to put it that way is that there were a number of
meetings of Conniiunists of trade-unions in the Roosevelt Building
and I naturally want to be precise. The Roosevelt Building is just
off Union Square and not far from the Daily Worker.
Mr. Connors. You have met Mr. Guinier in that vicinity ?
Mr. Budenz. That is my impression, but I would like to search my
recollection further as to that. I do know very definitely from official
information that he was a Communist.
Mr. Connors. Mr. Budenz, have you an information in respect to
a man named Alfred David Bernstein ?
Mr. Budenz. Yes, sir. I have met him as a Communist in the meet-
ings at the Roosevelt Building.
Mr. Connors. At that time, was he affiliated with the United Public
Workers of America ?
Mr. Budenz. I am not sure of that. He was interested in them, but
I am not sure that he was a member.
Mr. Connors. Does your recollection of Mr. Bernstein coincide with
your recollection of Mr. Flaxer, that is, are they closely connected in
your mind ?
Mr. Budenz. That's the reason I remember him, because Bernstein
is a rather common name. I associated him with Mr. Flaxer. I met
him in Mr. Flaxer's residence.
Mr. Connors. Did you also know a woman named Eleanor Nelson ?
Mr. Budenz. Yes, sir. I have met with her as a Communist. On
several occasions, she came to New York to consult members of the
Politburo and specifically Roy Hudson. He was in charge of labor.
I know that because for a time I was giving some advice with Hudson's
consent to this group, but specifically through a young man who has
apparently left them. I just can't recall his name right now. Irving
Elver, perhaps.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 23
Mr, Connors. Do you recall just at the moment, Mr. Budenz, any
one else prominent in the United Public Workers of America, whom
you can identify as a party member ?
Mr. Budenz. Well, if I saw a list I could do it. I just can't offhand.
I haven't been thinking of the question.
*^u ^^ ^M *1* «S» aj^
r^ «^ ■)* ^* «^ ^i
Mr. Connors. Mr. Budenz, to revert back for a moment to Abram
Flaxer, to your knowledge does Mr. Flaxer consult or has he consulted
in the past frequently with Roy Hudson ?
Mr. Budenz. In the days when I was in the party, he constantly
consulted with Roy Hudson and also with Jack Stachel. In addition
to that, he consulted with other leaders of the party.
92838—52-
SUBYEESIYE CONTKOL OF THE UNITED PUBLIC
WORKERS OF AMERICA
SATURDAY, AUGUST 25, 1951
United States Senate,
Subcommittee To In^^estioate the Administration
OF THE Internal Security and Other Internal
Security Laws of the Committee of the Judiciary,
Washington^ D. O.
The subcommittee met at 10 a. m., pursuant to call, in room 457,
Senate Office Buildin^?, Senator Arthur V. Watkins presiding.
Present: Senator Watkins.
Also present: Donald D. Connors, Jr., and Mitchel M. Carter,
investigators.
Senator Watkins. The committee will resume its session.
Has the witness been sworn ?
Mr. Connors. He has not been.
Senator Watkins. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that
you are about to give before the subcommittee will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Kead. I do.
Senator Watkins. You may proceed.
Mr. Connors. Will you identify yourself by name and occupation
please ?
TESTIMONY OF HAREY READ, CHICAGO, ILL., EXECUTIVE ASSIST-
ANT TO JAMES B. CAREY, SECRETARY-TREASURER OF THE
CONGRESS OF INDUSTRIAL ORGANIZATIONS
Mr. Read. My name is Harry Read. My legal residence is 6831
South Perry Avenue, in the city of Chicago, 111. My Washington
residence is at 1428 N Street NW. I am executive assistant to James
B. Carey, secretary-treasurer of the Congress of Industrial Organiza-
tions. My office is at 718 Jackson Place NW, in the National head-
quarters of the Congress of Industrial Organizations.
Mr. Connors. Now, Mr. Read, how long have you been affiliated
with the CIO?
Mr. Read. Since 1937, when I became a member of the American
Newspaper Guild in Chicago.
Mr. Connors. And has your employment with CIO been reoailar
since 1937?
Mr. Read. I was in 1937 engaged in the newspaper industry as an
executive editor in the employ of the Hearst Newspapers. I joined
the guild, subsequently became associated as an employee of the CIO
in 1940 in the city of Detroit, where I worked with the United Auto-
25
26 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
mobile Workers. Thereafter, I was associated with August Scholle,
regional director of the State of Michigan, dealing with CIO mat-
ters in that State.
In April of 1945, 1 was summoned to Washington to become execu-
tive assistant to Mr. Carey, and have been here since.
Mr. Connors. Mr. Read, I would like to invite your attention to a
union called the United Federal Workers of America, and ask you
if you are familiar with that union.
Mr. Read. Yes, sir.
Mr. CoNNOKS. I hand you now a letter bearing the letterhead of
the United Federal Workers of America. This letter indicates that
one Eleanor Nelson was at that time secretarj^-treasurer, and the date
of this letter is September 11, 1937.
I wonder if you can identify this letter as part of the official files
of the CIO?
Mr. Read. Yes, sir ; I can. That letter is part of our official records,
in the custody of Secretary-Treasurer Carey.
Mr. Connors. Mr. Read, whose name appears on that letter as a
union officer?
Mr. Read. Jacob Baker is listed here as president; Eleanor Nelson
is secretary-treasurer; Arthur Goldschmidt is vice president, and
Henry Rhine is national organizer.
Mr. Connors. Is it within your recollection that those people were
in fact officers of that union ?
Mr. Read. To the best of my knowledge, they were.
Mr. Connors. Mr. Read, does that file refresh your memory as to
any charter given that union by the CIO ? You have in your hands
a file which is part of the official files of the Congress of Industrial
Organizations. Isn't that so, Mr. Read?
Mr. Read. Yes. This is the official charter file of the United Fed-
eral Workers of America.
Mr. Connors. And what does that file show as to the date of the
charter issued to the United Federal Workers of America ?
Mr. Read. The original charter was issued on June 22, 1937, under
the original Committee for Industrial Organizations. It was returned
and reissued on November 16, 1938, under the Congress for Industrial
Organizations, the old committee, which had in the meantime held a
constitutional convention and resolved itself into the Congress of In-
dustrial Organizations.
Subsequently, it was canceled and reissued on November 16, 1938,
the same day, merely for the purpose of changing some of the names
of the people who had appeared on the original charter.
Mr. Connors. Then your testimony is to the effect that the CIO
chartered that organiza"^tion in 1937, and it was so chartered until it
went out of existence ; is that correct ?
Mr. Read. Yes, sir.
Mr. Connors. Now, Mr. Read, I would like to invite your attention
to another union, also affijiated with the CIO. I would like to invite
your attention to a union known as the State, County, and Municipal
Workers of America, also affiliated with the CIO. And I hand you a
letter on the letterhead of that union, which letter is dated January
23, 1940.
Now, from that letter, and from your own recollection, Mr. Read,
can you identify the officers of that union ?
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 27
Mr. Eead. Yes ; this letter, too, is from our orioinal files. It is the
letterhead of the State, County, and Municipal Workers of America,
affiliated with the CIO, with officers at 2 Lafayette Street, New York,
N. Y.
The officers listed are Abram Flaxer, president, and Henry W.
Wenning, secretary-treasurer.
Mr. Connors. Now, Mr. Kead, I hand you a file and ask you if you
can identify that file.
Mr. Read. Yes. This is the charter file from our original records,
on the State, County, and Municipal Workers.
Mr. Connors. What does that file show as to the date that union
was chartered ?
Mr. Read. It shows that the original charter was issued on July 1,
1937, under the Committee for Industrial Organizations. It was
reissued by the Congress of Industrial Organizations when that con-
stituional body succeeded the old Congress for Industrial Organiza-
tions. The date of issue was November 16, 1938. On the same day,
that charter was returned and reissued with new names of the officers.
Mr. Connors. Now, Mr. Read, what transpired as to the ultimate
end of the State, County, and Municipal Workers of America and the
United Federal Workers of America, while they were in the CIO?
Mr. Read. Both of these organizations operated under these char-
ters, according to our records, until on or about April 22, 1946, at
which time two organizations met together in a convention at Atlantic
City, N. J. Sometime during that week of April 22, 1946, the delegates
from both organizations voted to merge the two unions under the title
"United Public Workers." No new charter was issued by CIO to that
new organization. It continued to function instead under the two
original charters, which, incidentally, are still in the possession of the
United Public Workers. They were never returned to us when the
merged group was expelled from our organization.
Mr. Connors. Now, is the union known as United Public Workers
of America still in existence ?
Mr. Read. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
Senator Watkins. It has been expelled, however, by your
organization ?
Mr. Read. It was expelled by the Congress of Industrial
Organizations.
Mr. Connors. Can you very briefly indicate why the organization
was expelled by the CIO?
Mr. Read. In 1949, the activities of the United Public Workers
culminated in a series of charges being preferred against them before
the executive board of the Congress of Industrial Organizations,
charging them with having failed to function as a labor organiza-
tion, with acting as a subsidiary of the Communist Party, an agent
of the Soviet Union, with advancing the interests of the Soviet Union
over and above the interests of the members of the United Public
Workers, with operating in open opposition to, not merely noncom-
pliance with but open opposition to, the policies of the Congress of
Industrial Organizations, which had been determined in conventions.
Subsequently, the officers of this organization were called before a
committee of the CIO executive board for a hearing. There, evidence
was submitted in support of the charges. The officers of that union
were given full opportunity to reply to those charges.
28 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
The testimony went on for days, voluminous testimony. At the end
of the hearing period, the committee studied the evidence, made a
finding, reported to the executive board ; and, with the recommenda-
tion that the United Public Workers be expelled from the Congress
of Industrial Organizations, the executive board voted to expel -them
and revoke the charters which they then held.
Mr. Connors. Was that date of expulsion about February 16, 1950,
effective as of March 1 ?
Mr. Read. To the best of my recollection, yes.
Mr. Connors. Mr. Read, does the union known as United Public
Workers of America derive some of its membership from Federal
employees ?
Mr. Read. Yes; my recollection is — and I believe the abstract of
the testimony at the trial before the executive-board committee will
reveal — that at the time of the merger or immediately after the merger
about 11 percent of the membership of the United Public Workers
was made up of workers employed by the Federal Government, Fed-
eral agencies.
Mr. Connors. Those are individuals who actually are employees of
the United States Government?
Mr. Read. Yes, sir.
Mr. Connors. Now, when you say "11 percent of the total member-
ship," to your best knowledge, what would that membership constitute
in numbers of individuals ?
Mr. Read. I don't recall what their membership was. A guess,
based on my recollection, which may be faulty, would be that the
union had a total membership of about 90,000. Therefore, the 11
percent would be roughly 9,000 or 10,000.
Senator Watkins. Were those in the lower-salary brackets, that
membership ?
Mr. Read. Well, in all brackets, Senator. We do not judge our
members by the amount of their income, not the CIO.
Senator Watkins. I know you would not judge them by that, but
I was just wondering as a matter of fact whether they were in the
•higher- or the lower-income brackets.
Mr. Read. I would say the range was over-all, through my personal
acquaintance with various members of the United Public Workers.
Some of them were fairly high-salaried people. Others were ex-
tremely low-paid, too low in our judgment.
Senator Watkins. That may be true. In fact, I have been sup-
porting measures to increase their salary.
Mr. Connors. Could you name some of the departments of the
United States Government which have members in the UPWA, Mr.
Read?
Mr. Read. To my direct knowledge, there were members in the De-
partment of Labor, in the State Department, in the Department
of Justice, in the United States Employment Service, when that
entire activity was under Federal jurisdiction during the war years.
I met personally with members from the State Department, from the
Department of Labor, and I believe some from the Department of
Justice, what we call right-wing unionists, who were protesting and
working against the activities of the administration of the United
Public Workers.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 29
Mr. Connors. To the best of your knowledge, are there individuals
•who work for the Atomic Energy Commission and who are also mem-
bers of the UPWA ?
Mr. Read. I do not believe they ever had any members in the
Atomic Energy Commission; that Commission, you will recall, was
set up after the end of World War II.
Mr. Connors. Now, Mr. Read, what position does Abraham Flaxer
hold at the present time ?
Mr. Read. To the best of my knowledge — and I have no direct
knowledge — but, to the best of my knowledge, he is still the presi-
dent of the United Public Workers.
Senator Watkins. That is the expelled union ?
Mr. Read. Yes, sir.
Mr. Connors. He formerly was president of the State, County, and
Municipal Workers ; and, when this new union was formed, he became
president of that ?
Mr. Read. He became president of that ; yes, sir.
Mr. Connors. Now, Mr. Read, have you any information or knowl-
edge indicating Mr. Flaxer's political beliefs?
Mr. Read. Well, of course, I have never seen him at a Communist
meeting, because I could never be admitted to a Communist meeting.
That goes, of course, as to any direct laiowledge that I have.
Mr. Connors. Isn't it a matter of fact that, in the CIO hearings on
the UPWA, Flaxer did not deny that he was a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Read. That is what the record shows: that he did not deny it;
that he did not in fact avail himself of any opportunity to deny it.
Senator Watkins. Did he appear at all personally ?
Mr. Read. Yes, sir. He appeared at the meetings, took a very
active part in the cross-examination of witnesses who appeared in
support of the charges.
Senator Watkins. Is he a lawyer ?
Mr. Read. Flaxer? I do not believe so. Senator.
Mr. CoNNORS: Do you have reason to believe that Mr. Flaxer is in
fact a Communist?
Mr. Read. Yes, sir ; I believe he is.
Mv. Connors. AVliat facts or what set of facts lead you to that
belief?
Mr. Read. Well, it lies in that undefined area. Let me say this,
that I base my opinion entirely upon what we might call deductive
logic. I believe Abram Flaxer to be a member of the Communist
Party in much the same way as I would state without hesitation that
other men I know are loyal, decent citizens of the United States,
judginn; them entirely by their acts, studying those acts, and then
deducting from those acts the character of the person under con-
sideration.
Mr. Connors. How long have you know Mr. Flaxer ?
Mr. Read. Personally since 1945, when I came into the national
CIO office, 6 years ago.
Mr. Connors, And have you been in fairly close association with
him during those 6 years?
Mr. Read, AVell, in general, yes, in my official capacity, attending
the same meeting of the executive board, hearing him talk, and, of
30 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
course, prior to that time, having some general kno^vledge of CIO
affairs and attending CIO conventions. I have attended every CIO
convention since the convention of 1941, held in the city of Detroit.
Mr. Connors. Now, Mr. Read, who is Ewart Guinier ?
Mr. Read. Yon see, we have so many affiliates that I have difficulty
recalling the precise office held. I was wondering if there was some-
thing here I could use to refresh my recollection. Mr. Guinier is
secretary-treasurer.
Mr. Connors. Of what organization?
Mr. Read. Of the United Public Workers.
Senator Watkins. That is the present organization?
Mr. Read. The organization we expelled, Senator. As to whether
he holds office now, I do not know.
Mr. Connors. But at the time of expulsion, at least, he was the
secretary-treasurer ?
Mr. Read. He was the secretary-treasurer at the time of explusion.
Senator Watkins. To refresh my recollection, when was that ex-
pulsion ?
Mr. Read. In 1950, as of March 1, 1 believe.
Mr. Connors. Are you acquainted with Mr. Guinier, Mr. Read?
Mr. Read. Yes, generally acquainted with him; not at all inti-
mately.
Mr. Connors. To your best knowledge, what are Mr. Guinier's
political persuasions ?
Mr. Read. I would say that they coincide with my views on Mr.
Abram Flaxer, namely, that Mr. Guinier is a member of the Com-
munist Party.
Mr. Connors. And how do you come to that conclusion, Mr. Read ?
Mr. Read. By the same process of reasoning, by observing his
actions, what he says, what he does, and drawing therefrom the
conclusion that he is a member of the Communist Party.
Senator Watkins. May I ask you a question at that point?
Were you a member of the CIO committee which heard the charges
against him ?
Mr. Read. No, sir.
Mr. Connors. Were you present at the hearing?
Mr. Read. No, sir; just in and out of the room at times while this
whole series of hearings was going on.
Senator Watkins. Did you have access to the record ?
Mr. Read. Oh, yes, sir.
Senator Watkins. Have you read that record ?
JNIr. Read. Yes, sir.
Senator Watkins. That would be one of the reasons why you would
come to that conclusion ?
Mr. Read. Yes; that would add to the facts on which I base my
conclusion.
Senator Watkins. And the same would be true with respect to
Mr. Flaxer?
Mr. Read. Yes, sir. The records, I might add, are in the care and
custody of our office, the secretary-treasurer of the CIO.
Senator Watkins. With respect to that hearing, did you give them
full opportunity to present their evidence ?
Mr. Read. Yes, sir.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 31
Senator Watkins. And to make any denials tliat tliey wished to
make ?
Mr. Read. Yes, sir; full opportunity to cross-examine witnesses,
to be represented if they so chose by counsel, to present evidence in
their own behalf in refutation, mitigation, or extenuation of the
charges.
Mr. Connors. How many members were there of the committee
that heard the charges and made the findings?
Mr. Read. Three. Three members of our executive board?
Mr. Connors. By that you mean all officials of the CIO ?
Mr. Read. Yes, sir.
Senator Watkins. I wasn't asking for the names. I didn't care to
go that far. But I just wanted to be sure.
Mr. Read. I think probably it would be well to have the names in
the record, and I can identify them. Emil Rieve.
Senator Watkins. He is the economist, is he ?
Mr. Read. No ; Emil Rieve is president of the United Textile Work-
ers and a vice president of the CIO.
Senator Watkins. I think I liave met him.
Mr. Read. The second member was Joseph E. Beirne, president of
the Communications Workers of America and also a vice president
of the CIO. The third member was Harry Sayre, president of the
United Paper Workers and a member of the executive board of the
CIO.
Mr. Connors. Mr. Read, who is Eleanor Nelson ?
Mr. Read. Eleanor Nelson I knew but slightly. I believe she be-
came president of the old United Federal Workers along about 1940,
maybe earlier, and she continued — no, I am afraid I can't just iden-
tify those activities, but I can say that in 1945 I know of a certainty
that she was president of the United Federal Workers, and that she
remained in that position until the merger, at which time Abram
Flaxer became president of the combined organizations.
Mr. Connors. What were Eleanor Nelson's political beliefs at that
time, to the best of your knowledge?
Mr. Read. In my opinion, she was a member of the Communist
Party, or at least extremely eligible to become a member. She voted
constantly with the Communist bloc.
On refreshing my recollection, I recall now that Eleanor Nelson '
did become president approximately in 1944, when the United Fed-
eral Workers were relieved of an administration instituted by the
national CIO. She remained then as president of the United Fed-
eral Workers until the merger which I have already described.
Mr. Connors. You said a moment ago, Mr. Read, that to the best
of your knowledge, Eleanor Nelson was either a Communist or was
eligible for membership in the Communist Party, to use your phrase.
Now, can you give reasons on which that conclusion would be
based ?
Mr. Read. Yes; I conclude that from the transcript of tlie testi-
mony before the executive board committee which heard the charges
against the combined group.
Mr. Connors. Independently of that testimony, have you any rea-
sons to arrive at that conclusion ?
Mr. Read. Yes, sir ; by her actions and her deeds. I would deduct
from those actions and deeds the conclusion that she was a member
32 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
of the Communist Party or eligible to membership in the Commmiist
Party.
Mr. Connors. How long were you associated with Eleanor Nelson,
Mr. Read?
Mr. Read. I was never associated with her, except to the extent
that she was president of a CIO affiliate.
Mr. Connors. Yes. I understand.
Mr. Read. In that way, I had official contact with that organization
and with its officers.
Mr. Connors. Over what period of time ?
Mr. Read. From April 1945 until the merger of the United Federal
Workers and the State, County, and Municipal Workers, into the
United Public Workers.
Mr. Connors. And your testimony is that Eleanor Nelson, in her
union activities, consistently followed the Communist bloc of the
union ?
Mr. Read. Yes, sir.
Mr. Connors. Mr. Read, we have identified Henry W. Wenning as
secretary-treasurer of the United Federal Workers of America. What
information have you as to his political beliefs ?
Mr. RsAD. Nothing except as to his general reputation, which was
that he was not a member of the Communist Party, but that he con-
sistently went along with members of the Communist Party in carry-
ing out Communist policies within that organization.
Senator Watkins. You might say, in other words, that while he
might not be a Communist, he acted like one.
Mr, Read. Or at least sacrificed what I call principle to political
expediency.
Mr. Connors. And over how long a period of time did you have
association with Mr. Wenning?
Mr. Read. I never had anything but the most remote association
with Mr. Wenning.
Mr. Connors. Over what period of time did you have this remote
association ?
Mr. Read. From April 1945 until whatever time it was that he
ceased to hold office in the United Public Workers.
Mr. Connors. Mr. Read, who is Alfred David Bernstein?
• Mr. Read. I don't recall that name.
Mr. Connors. Is there an Alfred David Bernstein who was for-
merly director of negotiations for the United Public Workers of
America in November 1945 ?
Mr. Read. As I say, I do not recall the name, and I would have
very little personal knowledge of the people who administered the
atfairs of the union.
Mr. Connors. Mv. Read, we have had testimony to the effect that
there were six locals of the American Federation of Government Em-
ployees, which, as you know, is an AFL union, which locals were
expelled from the AFL union in 1936. There was some testimony to
the effect that the membership of these unions was later chartered by
the CIO.
I would like to read you a list of the unions and ask you if you can
comment on that situation at all.
The first one is the Social Security Board Lodge of the American
Federation of Government Employees. It had the A. F. of L. Lodge
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 33
No. 280. To your knowledge was there such a group chartered by the
CIO in approximately 1937 or 1938 ?
Mr. Bead. To the best of my knowledge, there was not. If the
usual procedure was followed, it would seem to me that these groups
met together of their own accord, merged into a group, and then
applied for a charter. That is the ordinary practice or was the
ordinary practice in the formation of CIO unions in those days.
Mr. Connors. Let me ask you the same question with respect to
the A. F. of L. local lodge No. 249, the Public Assistance Division
of the District of Columbia municipal government.
Mr. Read. I have no personal recollection of such a group.
Mr. Connors. Let me ask you the same question with respect to
the union or the group of individuals from the Railroad Retirement
Board, which had A. F. of L. lodge No. 247.
Mr. Read. My recollection likewise is not good as to that group.
I have no recollection of it.
Mr. Connors. The next group is the one within the Securities and
Exchange Commission ; A. F. of L. lodge No. 245.
Mr. Read. You may apply the same general answer to that.
Mr. Connors. And again with respect to a group from the Farm
Credit Administration, A. F. of L. lodge 213.
Mr. Read. And you may apply the same general answer to that.
Mr. Connors. And the last group is from the Department of
Justice, A. F. of L. lodge No. 21.
Mr. Read. And the same general answer as to that.
Mr. Connors. Then your testimony is that if these groups were in
fact chartered by CIO, they would have probably merged or lost
their identity within a larger group which was chartered. Is that
substantially the testimony?
Mr. Read. Yes. That would be the ordinary procedure.
Mr. Connors. I see.
Mr. Read. I do not recall that any CIO charters w^ere issued spe-
cifically to those groups. If they were, they were issued to them as
local industrial unions, and then they subsequently lost identity as
local industrial unions and became merged into the United Federal
Workers or some other union.
Senator Watkins. You have there in jour hands a copy of the con-
stitution of the Congress of Industrial Organizations?
Mr. Read. Yes, sir.
Senator Watkins. You know that that is a copy of the constitution ?
Mr. Read. Yes, sir. This is an authentic official copy.
Senator Watkins. It may be received as an exhibit in the hearing,
but will not be actually copied in the transcript. We will mark it,
so that if at any time we want to check, we will have it as part of
the files, though not actually part of the record itself.
(The document referred to was marked as an exhibit and filed for
the information of the subcommittee.)
Mr. Carter. Mr. Read, you have with you, I understand, a copy of a
certificate of affiliation which the CIO issues to its affiliates.
Would you care to comment on the procedure under which unions
are affiliated with CIO and the terms and conditions under which they
are affiliated ?
Mr. Read. Yes, sir. The usual procedure is for the group to apply
formally by letter for affiliation with the Congress of Industrial O^*-
34 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
ganizations. That application then comes before the executive board
of the CIO. If it is favorably acted upon, a certificate of affiliation is
issued, and that certificate is generally known as a charter. It reads
as follows :
This certificate of affiliation, with such grants and privileges as may from time
to time be determined, is hereby granted to —
and then follows the name of the applying group and the charter
members thereof. The certificate continues :
This certificate with all of the rights and privileges appurtenant thereto is granted
upon the condition that the said union shall at all times comply with the con-
stitution of the Congress of Industrial Organizations ; and in the event of violation
thereof this certificate may, pursuant to said constitution, be revoked, whereupon
all rights and privileges appurtenant thereto sliall be annulled.
So long as this condition shall be duly performed in all respects, the Congress
of Industrial Organizations does hereby agree to promote and assist the said union
in the exercise of all of the rights and privileges secured hereunder.
In witness whereof, we have hereunto attached our signatures and caused
the seal of the Congress of Industrial Organizations to be affixed.
It is "Dated this day of " and signed by the secretary and
the treasurer of the Congress of Industrial Organizations. The seal is
then attached.
Mr. Carter. That represents the type of certificate that was granted
to the United Federal Workers of America and the State, County, and
Municipal Workers of America ?
Mr. Reads. Yes, sir.
Mr. Carter. That represents the type of certificate that Avas issued to
the United Federal Workers of America, you say, and the State,
County, and Municipal Workers of America, when they were chartered
by the CIO?
Mr. Read. Yes, sir.
Mr. Carter. And it is your testimony that the United Public
Workers of America was never issued such a certificate of affiliation
upon their organization in 1946 ?
Mr. Read. That is right.
Mr. Carter. However, you have also testified that the certificates of
affiliation for the United Federal Workers of America and the State,
County, and Municipal Workers of America have since been voided
by the CIO?
Mr. Read. Yes, sir.
Mr. Connors. Mr. Read, you are appearing here under subpena?
Is that correct ?
Mr. Read. Yes, sir.
Mr. Connors. I have no further questions.
Senator Watkins. I haven't any.
Thank you very much, Mr. Read, for your appearance.
The committee will take an indefinite recess.
(Whereupon, at 11 : 05 a. m., Saturday, August 25, 1951, the hearing
was recessed subject to the call of the Chair. )
SUBVEESIVE CONTROL OF THE UNITED PUBLIC
WORKEES OF AMERICA
WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 29, 1951
United States Senate,
subc0m»iittee to investigate the administration
OF THE Internal Security Act and Other Internal
Security Laws of the Committee on the Judiciary,
Washington^ D. G.
The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10 a. m., in room 424, Sen-
ate Office Building, Senator Arthur V. Watkins, presiding.
Present: Senator Watkins.
Also present : Frank W. Schroeder, professional staff member ; Don-
ald D. Connors, Jr., and Edward E. Duffy, and Mitchel M. Carter,
investigators.
Senator Watkins. The committee will resume session.
Mr. Riesel, will you stand to be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in the
matter now pending before the committee shall be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. RiESEL. I so swear.
TESTIMONY OF VICTOE RIESEL, NEW YORK, N. Y., ACCOMPANIED
BY MISS MARIAM GOLDEINE
Mr. Connors. Will you kindly identify yourself by residence and
occupation, Mr. Riesel?
Mr. RiESEL. I am a newspaper man and I write a daily column called
Inside Labor, which goes beyond the title. It covers politics and sub-
versive activities, as well as the labor movement. It is syndicated in
considerably over a hundred newspapers. I have with me several of
those papers, to show you the format, if you want it.
My name is Victor Riesel. My office is in the New York Daily Mir-
ror Building, at times, and on Madison Avenue, as well.
Mr. Connors. For how long a period of time, Mr. Riesel, have you
been writing this column ?
Mr. Riesel. I have been writing this column since 1943 ; the 1st of
March 1943. I have been covering the field since March 6, 1930.
Mr. Connors. And in those some more than 20 years, you have de-
veloped a wide familiarity with labor and union problems; is that
correct ?
Mr. Riesel. Very intimately so: yes.
i|? •!» V "P T* •!• •(•
Mr. Connors. Let me invite your attention to a labor union known
as the United Public Workers of America, and ask you to comment on
the principal officer of that union, who is one Abram Flaxer.
35
36 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. RiESEL. I can talk to j^ou from personal observation, which I
think is as important in this picture as anything you can have on the
record.
Flaxer I have watched at many CIO conventions, and I have been
told by men in the CIO who have broken with the Communist Party,
that not only did Flaxer act as a whip on the floor of the conventioji,
but that he would participate in the Communist caucuses with such
people as Roy Hudson of the Communist Party, Williamson of the
Communist Party
Mr. Connors. John Williamson?
Mr. RiESEL. Johnnie Williamson of the Communist Party, and
sometimes, of course, when it was feasible, there would be discussioris
\yith the party leadership itself, such as Earl Browder; that at no
time in my observation of every convention of the CIO that he partic-
ijDated in, did he ever deviate from the line.
Now, you have to differentiate between him and a man, let us say,
like Mike Quill.
These people who later broke occasionally gave evidence of inde-
pendence, but Flaxer was always considered in the inner apparatus, as
one of the tried fanatics, and it was our impression that just as men
were assigned to capture the mine, milling and smelter industry, in
the nonferrous metals and so on, as men were assigned to capture the
electronics field, Flaxer was assigned to capture the Government
agencies.
Mr. CoNNOKS. Then, your testimony, Mr. Riesel, is to the effect that,
to the best of your knowledge, Mr. Flaxer is under Communist Party
discipline, and has been for some time ?
Mr. RiESEL. To my personal observation he was under that dis-
cipline at the CIO conventions in which he i)articipated, and in which
1 saw him participate.
Mr. Connors. Can you. comment briefly on a man called Ewart
Guinier, who is the secretary-treasurer of the UPWA?
Mr. Riesel. I think Ewart Guinier is one of the most effective
Stalinist operatives that there is, who takes advantage of the fact that
he is a Negro, because any attack upon him in this critical time is
immediately turned into an attack upon the Negro people, which, of
course, is fantastic, but because of that, Guinier has become a very
powerful figure in Stalinist circles in New York.
Mr. Connors. Then, your testimony is to the effect that, to your best
knowledge again, Guinier is under Communist Party discipline ?
Mr. Riesel. Yes; Communist Party discipline in the operation of
seizing the sympathies of the colored minority groups. He was used
very effectively, for examiDle, for the Committee on Democratic Far
Eastern Policy, which was set up to help the Soviet Union gain sym-
pathy for its aggression in the Orient.
Mr. Connors. And has that committee been cited by any responsible
Government body as a Communist front, or a Communist-dominated
organization ?
Mr. Riesel. Yes, it is on the Attorney General's list of subversive
organizations.
I might say that I have been personally covering some of their
meetings, and at these meetings I have observed and listened to pro-
Communist Chinese pro-North Korean propaganda.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 37
I went to one such meeting in the presence of four other witnesses,
where we saw what in effect was a North Korean rally.
At the meeting at the Fraternal Clubhouse, which I think is on
West Forty-eighth Street, New York, and is favored by many of the
left-wing organizations, Guinier was in the chair, and participated in
this attack upon the United States.
Mind you, this isn't an attack on the foreign policy, for which there
is considerable room, depending on how you feel about it, but this was
an attack upon the United States.
Mr. Connors. You are appearing here today in answer to a subpena,
are you not, Mr. Riesel?
Mr. E-iESEL. Yes.
Mr. Connors. The committee wants to express its gratitude for
your testimony, and you will be released from subpena.
(Whereupon, at 11 : 25 a. m., Wednesday, August 29, 1951, the hear-
ing was recessed, subject to the call of the Chair.)
SUBVEESIYE CONTROL OF THE UNITED PUBLIC
WORKERS OF AMERICA
friday, september 28, 1951
United States SeNxVte,
Subcommittee To Investigate the
Administration or the Internal Security Act
AND Other Internal Security Laws,
OF the Committee on the Judiciary,
Washington^ B. C.
The subcommittee met at 10 a. m., pursuant to recess, in room 457,
Senate Office Building, Senator Herbert O'Conor presiding.
Present : Senator O'Conor.
Also present : Richard Arens, staff director ; Frank W. Schroeder,
professional staff member; Edward R. Duffy, investigator; Donald
D. Connors, Jr., investigator ; Mitchel M. Carter, investigator.
Senator O'Conor. The hearing will come to order.
I would like to swear you as a witness in connection with this meet-
ing of the subcommittee of the Judiciary. Will you be kind enough
to raise your right hand ?
In the presence of Almighty God, do you swear that the testimony
you shall give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Wenning. I do.
TESTIMONY OF HENRY W. WENNING
Senator O'Conor. What is your full name ?
Mr. Wenning. Henry W. Wenning.
Senator O'Conor. Thank you very much. All right, gentlemen,
you may proceed.
JMr. Arens. JNIr. Wenning, where were you born ?
Mr. Wenning. Mr. Arens, may I make a statement before you be-
gin your questions ?
Mr. xVrens. Yes.
Mr. Wenning. It is possibly irrelevant to you, but I would like to
make a statement for the record concerning my previous interview
with Mr. Connors. At the time that Mr. Connors spoke to me
Mr. Arens. Mr. Connors? You are referring to Mr. Connors of
the statf of the Internal Security Subcommittee ?
Mr. Wenning. That is right. At the time that Mr. Connors spoke
to me, I asked him if I could have a few days to think about it before
I answered his questions. I would like to make it clear for the
record, as I tried to make it clear to him, that my hesitation in reply-
ing to his questions did not reflect any feeling on my part, either. No.
39
92838—52 4
40 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPV^A
1, as I told him, that the committee did not have a rij2:ht to be there
and ask me questions or that I didn't have a responsibility to answer
them.
My hesitation in answering him at that time arose out of the fact
that I have been brought up, as I think you all have, in the belief
that you don't tell tales, you don't "tell on people." As I told him
then, it seemed to me a pretty painful affair. Since that time, of
course, I have given a good deal of consideration to the subject, and
it is because of a feeling that it is my responsibility and it is my duty
to give the committee whatever information I have that I am here.
Mr. Arens. We appreciate that attitude, and I assure you that the
committee is interested only in obtaining the facts fairly and
impartially.
Now, if we can continue with just a little of your own personal
background to identify yourself for the record please, Mr. Wenning.
Where and when were you born ?
Mr. Wenning. I was born in New York City on October 19, 1910.
Mr. Arens. Will you give us a brief resume of your educational
background ?
Mr. Wenning. I was educated in the parochial schools, and in sev-
eral different Catholic preparatory schools. I graduated from De La
Salle Institute in New York City in the year 1926, I believe. I
started to go to Columbia University as a nonmatriculating student
the following year, but didn't finish my courses. At a later date, in
the summer of 1936, 1 attended the University of Virginia as a special
student, and completed two courses during the period of that summer.
That is the end of my educational background.
Mr. Arens. What year is it that you have arrived at in the sequence
or in the relation of your testimony here on your education ?
Mr. Wenning. Well, there is a big gap there. As I said, I started
to attend Columbia University in 1926-27, stopped, and was at the
University of Virginia during the summer of 1936. In other words,
it is not a continuous — there was a lot of water that went under the
bridge in between.
Mr. Arens. Will you kindly give us a similar resume of your voca-
tions or occupations since you have reached adulthood?
]\fr. Wenning. After I graduated from De La Salle, and started
at Columbia University and dropped out, I performed no work for
compensation except perhaps odd jobs in there, from 1927 until 1933.
It is incorrect, I guess, to say that I performed no work for com-
pensation because I did do some writing. I did do some free-lance
writing at that time, and I was engaged in 1932-33 in writing a book.
Perhaps I should say an attempt to write a book.
Aside from jobs during the summer when I was a kid, and certain
brief jobs which I held during the beginning of the depression, really
the first steady job that I took was when I was employed under the
program that preceded the WPA, the CWA program, the Civil Works
Authority, or maybe it was CWS. I don't know what the "S" stood
for. Here I was employed first in the Motor Vehicle Department of
New York State as a temporary worker. The Federal Government
had a whole group of CWS people in there.
I was transferred to a project in the New York State Training
School for Boys at Warwick and, actuallj'^, I acted as a parole officer
for boys who were released from Rikers Island Prison who were as-
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 41
signed to the New York State Welfare Department for parole super-
vision. I transferred from there to another project at South Ferry,
in New York, which was the Federal Transient Bureau, where I
worked as an interviewer.
When the Federal Transient Bureau closed, the work that remained
was transferred, or perhaps it was merged, with the Home Relief Bu-
reau of New York into the new New York City Welfare Department. I
thereupon became an employee of the New York City Welfare Depart-
ment. No, I am sorry. It was not called the welfare department.
It was called the ERB, the emergency relief bureau, under Charlotte
Carr. I was an interviewer and, for a short time, a field investigator
for the ERB from whatever time the merger took place— I would say
late in 1935 — until June of 1936.
In June of 1936 I resigned my job there and went to the University
of Virginia, as I have indicated to you. In the autumn of 1936 I had
attempted to obtain sufficient scholarships at the University of Vir-
ginia to continue there because my marks had been rather high and
1 thought I might be able to do that. I was unable to do so. I re-
turned to New York and, shortly after that — I don't know if you want
the union history mentioned here.
Mr. Arens. I should like to have it, if you please.
Mr. Wenning. Well, when I was with the emergency relief bureau,
when I had resigned from there, I at that time was president of the
local union.
Mr. Arens. Identify the union, if you please.
Mr. Wenning. It was known as the Association of Workers in Pub-
lic Relief Agencies.
Mr. Arens. That was in 1936?
Mr. Wenning. That I resigned. Now, I had joined the union long
before this. Maybe, if you want to, it would be best for me to go back
and run over this.
Mr. Arens. You might do that at this time so we can keep the record
in the proper sequence.
Mr. Wenning. When I went to work in the New York State School
for Boys at Warwick, for the New York State Welfare Department,
I belonged to an organization, or I joined an organization, known as
the AOPEE, the Associated Office and Professional Emergency Em-
ployees. When I left the welfare department to go to the men's tran-
sient division, frankly, I can't remember whether I organized or
whether there was a sizable organization before I came. In any event.
I M^as chiefly instrumental in organizing an organization known as
the Workers Association, UTD.
Mr Arens. What did the UTD stand for?
Mr. Wenning. I am trying to think what the "U" stood for. The
"T" was Transient and the "D" was Division.
Mr. Arens. It might be "United."
Mr. Wenning. No, it was not union work. It was a Govenmient
title. Unem.ployed and transient division, I guess is what it was.
I became president of that organization, and, at the time that the
transient division was on the Avav out and was merged with the
other functions of the home relief bureau into this new ERB, Emer-
gency Relief Bureau of New York City, the two organizations like-
wise merged, that is, the organization of which I was the head merged
with the HRBEA. I think it was, Home Relief Bureau Employees
42 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Association, and we formed this new organization known as AWPRA^
Association of Workers in Public Relief Agencies.
I don't remember what office, if any, I held in the organization
at the time it was merged. But in the spring of the year 1936, some
time early in the year, I certainly can't remember exactly, I was
elected president — I think it was well into the spring — of that organi-
zation, and in June of that year I resigned both my job in the emer-
gency relief bureau and I resigned my presidency of the Association
of Workers in Public Relief Agencies. I left New York and I went
to the University of Virginia.
Mr. Arens. Now if you would kindly pause right there in the
sequence of events, when you were president of the Associated Work-
ers in Public Relief Agencies, do you recall the names of the other
officers ?
Mr. Wenning. I remember that Abram Flaxer was there, and I
believe his title was executive secretary.
Mr. Arens. Was he a salaried employee at that time?
Mr. Wenning. He was the only salaried employee, and succeeded —
do you want this?
Mr. Arens. Yes, if you please.
Mr. Wenning. At the time of the merger, a man by the name of
Bernard Riback was the salaried officer of the Home Relief Employees
Association, and I believe that continued for a short period. At
the time I was elected president, and it was part of the whole change-
over of the officers, Flaxer was the person who became executive
secretary, the salaried employee, and I was the nonsalaried working
president of the organization.
Mr. Arens. What was Flaxer's background or affiliations immedi-
ately prior to the time he became executive secretary of the AWPRA?
Mr. Wenning. What do you mean, what was his affiliation, Mr.
Arens ?
Mr. Arens. He had been affiliated with another group which merged
with some other groups to form the AWPRA.
Mr. Wenning. He had been some kind of officer in the HRBEA.
What he was, I certainly don't remember.
Mr. Arens. Was that the first occasion on which you had associa-
tion with Mr. Flaxer?
Mr. Wenning. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Now would you kindly proceed with your employment
activity after you left the University of Virginia? That was about
1937, 1 take it.
Mr. Wenning. No, that was in the fall of 1936.
Mr. Arens. The fall of 1936. All right.
Mr. Wenning. I returned to New York in the fall of 1936, and, in
my absence, I believe it was in my absence, the AWPRA had become
affiliated with the American Federation of Government Employees
and several charters were issued to that one group.
Mr. Arens. What was the affiliation of the American Federation
of Government Employees ?
Mr. Wenning. It was an American Federation of Labor union in
the Government service, and I believe it still is in the Government
service. Although there was only one local union, the ERB, emer-
gency relief bureau, had many district offices throughout the city, some
40 or 50, and we had members in each of those offices. I believe that
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 43
the AFGE chartered the AWPRA through the medium of some 40 or
50 local union charters in these different districts.
AVhen I returned to New York that group was just on the eve of
going to the city of Detroit for a convention of the AFGE, and I
was appointed, I guess is the best word for it, as 1 of the delegates,
1 of the 50 or 60 delegates who went to that AFGE convention. When
the convention was over and I returned to New York, I once again,
as I had done formerly, came around to the union office a few weeks
later. I was not w^orking and finally it was suggested that I take a
job there in the office as a sort of an office manager.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall who made the suggestion or who was
the moving personality in the arrangement?
Mr. Wenning. I honestly don't remember, but it seems most prob-
able that it was Mr. Flaxer. I b-egan to work in the union at a salary
of $5 a week.
Mr. Arens. May I interrrupt you there. To clarify two or three
points, what was Mr. Flaxer's position?
Mr. Wenning. He Avas still the executive secretary of AWPRA.
Mr. Arens. And what was the relationship between AWPRA and
AFGE?
Mr. Wenning. The constituent parts of AWPRA were affiliated
with AFGE as local unions.
Mr. Arens. Did Mr. Flaxer at that time have an assignment or
an official connection both with the AWPRA and with AFGE ?
Mr. Wenning. I would say that he had no official connection with
AFGE.
Mr. Arens. But he was, at that time, and this is about 1937
Mr. Wenning. No, we are still in 1936.
Mr. Arens. He was, at that time, executive secretary of AWPRA ?
Mr. Wenning. The constituent parts of which were all affiliated
with AFGE.
Mr. Arens. Yes, I understand.
Mr. Wenning. So that I would say that Mr. Flaxer's status in
AFGE was merely that of a person who was a leader of a whole group
of unions, locals, really one organization, in fact, that was a part
of AFGE. Wait a minute, I am sorry. You will have to forgive
me. It is 1936. That is 15 years ago. At the convention, when
the executive board was elected, I believe that Mr. Flaxer was elected
to the executive board.
Mr. Arens. Of AFGE?
Mr. Wenning. Of AFGE.
Mr. Arens. Who at that time was president of AFGE?
Mr. Wenning. I can't remember his name. If you have any rec-
ords, I would be able to place it immediately. I remember the man
well, but I certainly don't remember his name. In fact, I think he
was thrown out of AFGE shortly after that.
Mr. Arens. I understand now that in the fall of 1936, after you had
returned from the University of Virginia, you made a contact or an
association with AFGE at Mr. Flaxer's instigation, is that correct ?
Mr. Wenning. Well, I became a delegate to the convention. That
was my only contact with AFGE. I think "suggestion" is a better
word. Well, I guess it doesn't matter what word you use.
Mr. Arens. I want to use what word does cover the situation.
Mr. Wenning. I think "suggestion" is a better word.
44 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Arens. All right. Tell us what happened next.
Mr. Wenning. As I started to tell you, I took this job in the office.
Mr. Arens. What was the job about?
Mr. Wenning. To take charge of membership records, to handle
the distribution of a weekly newspaper that was put out by the union^
to run the office. It was a general jack-of -all-trades job, internally.
Mr. Arens. Was Mr. Flaxer at that time the man who actually ran
things ?
Mr. Wenning. Yes, definitely.
Mr. Arens. He was the power that ran the AFGE?
Mr. Wenning. He was the head of the union.
Mr. Arens. All right, sir. Proceed, if you please.
Mr. Wenning. Because I did do a good job in the union, the job
that was assigned to me, and because I obviously couldn't live very
long on $5 a week, my salary was gradually increased and my job took
on more of the function of a regular, permanent part of the union ma-
chinery. I don't remember whether I was increased to $15 a week,
or to $25 immediately. In any event, I know that by the beginning of
the year 1937 I was a full-time functioning officer of the union. I
don't believe I was an elected officer.
Mr. Arens. Of the union ? You are referring to AFGE ?
Mr. Wenning. AWPRA always. May I interrupt a moment so
you get this picture clearly? The contact between this group and
AFGE was very, very slight. Here you had AWPRA, one organi-
zation. AFGE, quite foolishly, as a matter of fact, from their point
of view, instead of giving them one charter to this group as just one
more local of AFGE, gave charters to all these little different districts
so that they represented, maybe, 50 different locals within AFGE.
But all the time it was really one organization. Immediately after
the convention, I would say it would be true to say that AFGE was
keeping this organization at arm's length. Wait, I am sorry, I have
forgotten part of the story.
Mr. Arens. You go right ahead at your own pace.
Mr, Wenning. It was not AFGE's convention that we went to.
Mr. Arens. Do you mean in 1936?
Mr. Wenning. Right. I was wrong. I am sorry. Wl\at hap-
pened was this: There were at the same time, within AFGE, other
locals who had membership in different local government services,
State, county, or municipal. So that there was a desire on their part
to set up a separate union aside from Federal Government Employees,
a separate union of those in the local government services. When the
AFGE convention was held in Detroit, if my memory is correct, and
I was never at that convention,: it was held, let us say, 2 days at the
beginning of the week. One of the decisions of that convention was
to release locals of the AFGE into a new organization that was going
to be formed.
INIr. Arens. That organization was the State, County, and Municipal
Workers of America, is that correct ?
Mr. Wenning. No, that new organization became the American
Federation of State, County, and Muni^'ipal Employees. That is
what it became ultimately. Now then, at the conclusion of the AFGE
convention, or perhaps simultaneously with the end of it, a new meet-
ing was held in the city of Detroit of all these local groups who repre-
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 45
sented local government employees for the purpose of forming a new
organization under the leadership of the American Federation of
Labor, and to be chartered by the American Federation of Labor.
It was to that convention that I went as a delegate. There were rep-
resented only local government employees from either the State, the
county, or the municipal services.
Mr. Arens. Was a new organization formed at that convention?
Mr. Wenning. It was formed under the presidency of a man by
the name of Arnold Zander.
Mr. Arens. What was the name of it ?
Mr. Wenning. The American Federation of State, County, and
Municipal Employees.
Therefore, when I returned to New York from Detroit, we were no
longer members of AFGE. We were members of the locals of the
American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees.
Mr. Zander was the president. Mr. Flaxer was a member of the ex-
ecutive board. Our group — by that I mean our AWPRA group in
New York — was the backbone, was the bulk and the body of what con-
stituted the group in opposition to Mr. Zander and the AFL leader-
ship. Or, we were the left wing of the American Federation of State,
County, and Municipal Employees.
Mr. Arens. Now, I believe we are in 1937. If you will just proceed
from there, it will be satisfactory.
Mr. Wenning. We went into 1937.
By the beginning of 1937, 1 had become, as I said, a full-time, active
official of the AWPKA, one of the five or six people who, I guess, were
the real leaders of the organization.
Mr. Arens. Could you pause there to give us the names of the other
real leaders of the AWPRA in 1937 ?
Mr. Wenning. Mr. Flaxer, myself, a man named Sam Sorkin,
Daniel Allen, William Gaulden. I think we were the only paid of-
ficials of the local union. There were a lot of other people who were
leaders, but I could go on endlessly and try to name those. I don't
know if that is necessary for this purpose.
Mr. Arens. That is sufficient in your discussion at the moment.
Mr. Wenning. In the spring of 1937, I was very much in favor of
joining the CIO and, in fact, because I was a little bit disgusted that
the rest of the people didn't share my view of joining the CIO, I went,
at that time, over to the Textile Workers Organizing Committee which
had an office in New York and applied for a job as an organizer with
them. I don't know if anything ever would have happened on that,
but before it did happen a contact was established between our group
and John L. Lewis.
It is beyond my memory, and I have tried to think about it, but
I can't recall how that contact was established. All I can recall now
is that eventually somebody did go to Washington and did see Lewis.
T never met Mr. Lewis at that time. Mr. Flaxer held a number of
meetings with him. I did attend a meeting — do you want all this?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Wenning. I did attend a meeting in Washington with Mr.
A. D. Lewis, Mr. John Brophy, and Mr. Len De Caux, all of the CIO
officials at that time. On our side were Mr. Flaxer, myself, I think
another person from New York — but if there was one, I forget who
46 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
it was — and someone from the State of Pennsylvania, also in the
American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees.
I believe it was Mr. David Kanes. I am not certain, but there may
have been someone from another part of the country. I was saying
that there may have been one other person from some other part of
the country because, at the convention, there had been some contact
or relationship established between other groups outside of Wash-
ington, and the New York group, who shared a common point of view.
In any event, we met with this grovip from the CIO and outlined
for them a program as to how we would go about organizing people
in the local government services. As a result of that conference, and
I think several later conferences between Mr. Flaxer and Mr. Lewis,
the CIO announced — I believe it was in July of 1937 — the formation
of an organizing committee for State, County, and Municipal Work-
ers. I believe it was called the State, County, and Municipal Workers
Organizing Committee, and the union was launched at that time. Mr.
Flaxer was named the executive vice president, if I am correct, by
Mr. Lewis, and I was appointed national organizer.
Mr. Arens. Who were some of the others? Who were some of the
other officers?
Mr. Wenning. We were the only two officers at that time. A large
number of field representatives were appointed, but we were the only
officers of the organizing committee.
Mr. Arens. Who did the appointing?
Mr. Wenning. John L. Lewis.
Mr. Arens. Now, take us on from there, if you please.
Mr. Wenning. Well, we began organizing. We established local
unions in different parts of the country. In the autumn of 1939 we
held a constitutional convention for the purpose of establishing a
formally constituted organization known as the State, County, and
Municipal Workers of America, of which Mr. Flaxer became the first
president and I became the first secretary-treasurer.
Mr. Arens. Were there any other officers ?
Mr. Wenning. There were no other officers.
Mr. Arens. Proceed, if you please.
Mr. Wenning. Well, I remained as secretary-treasurer of the State,
County, and Municipal Workers of America until February 1941,
when — although I should say parenthetically that I don't believe
there is any real record that would demonstrate this — I quit my job
there and I went to the State of California to see if I could get a new
job outside of the labor field.
Mr. Arens. Could you tell us, concisely, what precipitated your
break ?
Mr. Wenning. Yes. At that time, in 1941, because of my basic
disagreement with Mr. Flaxer specifically, and with some other offi-
cers of the union, and with the Communist Party generally-
Mr. Arens. When you say "other officers of the union" I assume
Mr. Wenning. I don't mean national officers. I mean other peo-
ple who were responsible for establishing the policy.
Mr. Arens. You and Mr. Flaxer were the only officers.
Mr. Wenning. Only officers, yes.
Mr. Arens. That is 1941?
Mr. Wenning. Yes. We were the only officers up until the time I
left. It may be that at some later convention they made provision
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 47
for vice president or something of the kind. But, if there were at that
time, they were merely honorary. Their real power stemmed from
their local situations. The national power resided with us completely,
and we shared that.
But you asked me what precipitated my departure at that time. It
was my disagreement with respect to the policy that the union — all
unions — should follow with respect to such things as aid to Britain,
the whole controversy of what the attitude of our country should be
toward the European war at that time.
Mr. Arens. I should like, eventually, to get back on that subject.
But I want you to go on with the chronology of things.
Mr. Wenning. I was in California. I can't remember the exact
time. I would say, as I said before, I left in February. I am almost
positive it was in February ; it might have been a little earlier. I came
back to New York after some 2 or 3 months, probably in April, the
beginning of April. I went to my old j ob in the union.
Since you asked me what precipitated that, I think I might tell you
what precipitated my coming back, to the degree that I can tell you,
because I certainly can't worry out all of the unconscious motivations
and so on that may have existed there. It was while I was away that
the United Auto Workers struck the Ford plant, which, to someone
in the labor movement, was a matter of tremendous significance and
drama and excitement. In several conversations I had had with Mr.
FlaxeT during the course of the year or perhaps even the 2 years prior
to that time, he led me to believe — and I believe that he himself be-
lieved, from the conversations which he had had with John L. Lewis —
that, if an auto workers' union was really established with contacts
in the auto industry, it was quite possible that Mr. Lewis would put
Mr. Flaxer in the position of some importance in that organization.
At that time, I think, there seemed to be no question about the fact
that Mr. Lewis had a good deal of confidence in Mr. Flaxer's ability.
To me in California, that meant the possibility that Mr. Flaxer might
move on out of State, County, and Municipal Workers and that I
would, without question, succeed to the presidency of that organiza-
tion. I saw therein the possibility of shaping that organization in
a way that more closely fitted with my ideas of what a trade-union
should be than his ideas. I guess, in all honesty, maybe I should add
that I hadn't been able to find any real employment opportunities in
California. Perhaps I was motivated, too, by just the need to have a
job.
In any event, shortly after my return in the spring of 1941, Germany
declared war on Russia and, as we all know, the line of the Communist
Party and of all organizations that were influenced by the Communist
Party did a real flip-flop, and the particular problems that had been
besetting me at that time no longer existed. There was no longer
any conflict, apparently at any rate, between the policy of our union
and the policy of the country. They both appeared to be meshed and
to be moving in the same direction.
Shortly after that, however, new problems appeared, and I am now
leading up to my final leaving of the union in April of 1944. New
problems appeared, namely, that, in my own opinion, all organizations
that were under the influence of the Communist Party were no longer
trade-unions ; no longer filled their functions as trade-union organi-
48 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
zations to protect the rights of their membership or to fight for the
need of their membership.
Mr. Arens. May I interpose this question : We will get back on this
subject later, but did you arrive at the conclusion, in your own mind,
that the State, County, and Municipal Workers of America was under
•Communist influence ?
Mr. Wenning. Well, Mr. Arens, I know as a matter of fact, not as
a matter of opinion, that from its inception the State, County, and
Municipal Workers of America was controlled by the Communist
Party because I was part of that control.
Mr. Arens. I want to get back on that. I just want the record to
be clear as to why you made the statement you did a moment ago.
Now, if you will just proceed, it will be satisfactory.
Mr. Wenning. Well, as I say, new problems developed for me per-
sonally after Russia entered the war and then our own country entered
the war. I felt that the policy that was urged on us by outside Com-
munist persons and a position that seemed acceptable — with qualifi-
cations on that word, but generally acceptable and accepted, I will
say, by Mr. Flaxer — was one which emasculated the union as a living
organization.
If I can j)ause here to make a statement on this question, because I
would like too, just for the record, it would be helpful. I was a person
\^'ho believed strongly that Government employees had the right to
belong to labor organizations. I felt that it was logical and sensible,
too, for the public to want to outlaw strikes in the Government service.
At the same time I felt that the public only had the right to do that
if, at the same time, they made available to Government employees
some really wortli- while method of negotiating and settling grievances.
I felt it was up to Government to establish something similar to what
was established a long time ago in the railroad industry: That is, a
national mediation board that had absolute power to decide contro-
versies. I felt that the only way the local government employees
would ever succeed to such a position, and to such a status in our
economy, was by really strenuous activity and, if necessary until that
was achieved, by strike action or similar actions.
During these years, after 1941, Mr. Flaxer and I disagreed flatly on
this question. He felt that there should be absolutely no strikes ; that,
further than that, to the greatest extent possible, we should minimize
any friction bstween our union and local governmental ofticials who
might be administering in the departments in which our members
were employed.
Mr. Arens. How do you account for his attitude ?
Mr. Wenning. Because that was ,the position of the Communist
Party.
Mr. Arens. That is while the Communists and Soviet Russia, at
least, and the United States were allies?
Mr. Wenning. That is right. So that during that period, say, from
the end of 1941 to the beginning of 1944, 1 was in constant conflict on
that subject. Finally, at the beginning of the year, probably around
January or February, I told Mr. Flaxer — it was the second or third
time that I had talked to him — that I was going to leave the organiza-
tion ; that I was goins; to resign. An executive-board meeting of the
State, County, and Municipal Workers of America was held in At-
lantic City — I am pretty sure it was held in April of 1944 — at which
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 49
time I officially addressed the executive board and announced my
resignation.
My resignation was to take effect, I believe, some time in July, so
that I could clean up the affairs of my office. I had, during the sev-
eral months prior to this, been looking for a job, looking for some kind
of opportunity. I did have offered to nie by a CIO official in New
York a job — in fact, a pretty high-paying job — as a labor-relations
person with one of the industrial corporations in the New York area,
which I turned down. I found a job. I wound up my affairs in the
union some time in July, w6nt on a 2 weeks' vacation, and actually,
physically, left or separated in August of 1944. Maybe it was the end
of July, but I am not certain.
Mr. Arexs. Before we get back to inquiries, specifically, on Com-
munist influence in the State, County, and Municipal Workers of
America, I should like to ask you if you have information respecting
the successor organization to the State, County, and Municipal Work-
ers of America : United Public Workers.
Mr. Wenning. I don't think I have any information on that. In
fact, I probably have much less information than almost any alert
member of the public. I know that a merger took place between the
United Federal Workers and SCMWA into the new organization.
Mr. Arens. To your knowledge, is Mi\ Flaxer now president of the
United Public Workers o£ America ?
Mr. Wenning. To my knowledge, yes.
Mr. Arens. Do you know any of the other officers of the United
Public Workers of America by'name ?
Mr. Wenning. When Mr. Connors visited me the other day, he men-
tioned in connection
Mr. Arens. You are speaking of Mr. Donald Connors of our staff?
Mr. Wenning. Mr. Don Connors. He mentioned Mr. Ewart
Guinier. My impression is that, at the time of the United Public
Workers — I believe that Guinier is now secretary-treasurer, but I am
not certain. I know that he is some kind of officer. If I remember
correctly, when they set up that organization, Flaxer was president.
Someone from the Federal Workers became secretary-treasurer. Bob
Weinstein was director of organization, and there were probably some
other jobs.
Mr. Arens. What do you know about Mr. Guinier? Was he with
the Federal Workers of America?
Mr. Wenning. No; he was with the State, County, and Municipal
Workers of America.
Mr. Arens. Was he with the State, County, and Municipal Workers
of America?
Mr. Wenning. Yes.
Mr. Arens. What was his assignment at the time you were with the
State, County, and Municipal Workers of America ?
Mr. Wenning. When I left, he was an officer of the New York
district of the State, County, and Municipal Workers of America.
What his exact title was, I don't remember.
Mr. Arens. Do you have information respecting the Federal Work-
ers of America ?
Mr. Wenning. I know almost nothing about the Federal Workers
of America.
50 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Akens. It was in existence at the time that you were in the
State, County, and Municipal Workers of America?
Mr. Wennino. Yes. It was started by Mr. Lewis, and I think it
was created a week or two before the SCMWA.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Jolm L. Lewis?
Mr. Wenning. John L. Lewis.
Mr. Arens. Do you know who the officers were of the Federal Work-
ers of America while you were in the State, County, and Municipal
Workers of America?
Mr. WejSTNing. At the time we startefl, in 1937, I believe that Mr.
Jacob Baker, who was formerly a Government official of some kind or
another, was named as the head of it. I believe he was named as
president. Perhaps it was chairman of the organizing committee.
He was succeeded while I was with the State, County, and Municipal
Workers of America. He was succeeded by Miss Eleanor Nelson.
I don't remember just what transpired there. I remember she was
sick a good deal of the time, and other people were running the organ-
ization. But I don't remember whether there was an actual official
change-over of title. I am not even certain if she was still president — •
I think she was — at the time the merger with the State, County, and
Municipal Workers of America took place. I think she was. I know
she was active a good deal of the time.
Mr. Arens. In the course of your affiliation with the State, County,
and Municipal Workers of America, did you acquire information re-
specting the aggregate membership of that organization?
Mr. Wenning. Of the State, Couifty, and Municipal Workers of
America ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Wenning. Well, yes; I had the information. To what degree
I can recall it accurately
Mr. Arens. What is your best recollection as to the membership?
Mr. Wenning. I would say that at the time that I left
Mr. Arens. That is August 194-1 ?
Mr. Wenning. Right — July 1944. We were paying per capita tax
to the CIO, I woulcl say, on approximately 21,000 members. That
is my best recollection, and I may be off. If that were so, we probably
had 27,000 or 28,000 members, t don't mean that we were not paying
the CIO the full per capita tax, but that it meant we were collecting
21,000 dues a month, and we may have had a certain number of mem-
bers who were 1 month behind or 2 months behind. We probably had
an organization of between 25,000 and 30,000 people.
Mr. Arens. What was your aggregate income in the course of a
month? I do not mean you personally; I mean the union.
Mr. Wenning. I understand. It was not very great. I am trying
to recall what our per capita tax was. I think we got either 25 or 30
cents a month per capita. Just around the time that I left, as a matter
of fact, one of the big sources of controversy in the union was the ques-
tion of finances; also, how they should be distributed between the
district and national offices. In fact, I believe that it — the dues — was
raised at the last convention prior to my departure. So, I really can't
give you anything but a hazy answer on that.
Perhaps the most indicative thing that I can say is that all during
the course of our history, we received rather generous financial assist-
ance from the CIO parent body. In other words, we always had
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 51
organizers assigned from them on our payroll and, at the beginning,
Ave had received, as you would expect, rather substantial cash allow-
ances to set up the organization and get it going. I certainly should
know what the income was; that was my business, but I just don't
remember.
Mr. Arens. I can understand how it would escape a man in the
course of the years. What was the aggi'egate membership of the Fed-
eral Workers of America, to your knowledge, if you have the informa-
tion, at the time you left?
Mr. Wenning. There was always a good deal of jealousy between
the smaller CIO unions as to who had the bigger membership, and my
memory may be biased. I would say that it was always my opinion
that the Federal Workers of America had a substantially less member-
ship than we did.
As I say, that may have been my prejudice and my bias. In other
words, our way of saying, ''Well, you are not as good an organization
as we are." But I sincerely believe that if we had 21,000 dues payers
at that time, that they didn't have more than 15,000 or 16,000 dues
payers — perhaps 21,000 members.
Mr. Arens. In what agencies of the Federal Government did the
Federal Workers of America have members ?
Mr. Wenning. I really don't know, Mr. Arens. I could try to
recollect, but it would be a vague recollection. I know Social Security
Board. I know that they had members in there because we likewise
had members in State bodies that stemmed from there — you know,
when we had to go to negotiate with Social Security Board employees
with our State employees w^ho were receiving grants from the Social
Security Board. So I recall that they hacl members in there, too.
I also recall that they had members at one time, I believe, in some
of the shipyards. I seem to remember meeting an organizer for the
P'ederal Workers of America at one time — who was trying to organize
members in the shipyards.
Mr. Arens. Did they have members in the Veterans' Adminis-
tration ?
Mr. Wenning. As a matter of knowledge, I really don't know.
I would say "Yes," but I am not sure.
Mr. Arens. The bulk of the membership of the State, County, and
Municipal Workers of America was in New York, was it not?
Mr. Wenning. They were by far the largest single section. It was
not the bulk in the sense that it represented more than half. It "uas
less than half.
Mr. Arens. And where else did you have membership other tha)i
in New York, in the State, County, and Municipal Workers of
America ?
Mr. Wenning. We had a sizable membership in Detroit and
throughout the State of Michigan. We had membership of some size
in the State of Pennsjdvania. I am really going down the scale now.
We had membership of some size in the city of Chicago, in the State
of Ohio, in the State of California, and I guess when you got through
with those you had the real bulk.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not the Federal Workers of
America had membership in the Immigration and Naturalization
Service ?
Mr. Wenning. I don't know.
52 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPV7A
Mr. Arens. Now, when did the Federal Workers of America arid
the State, County, and Municipal Workers of America merge ?
Mr. Wenning. I don't know.
Mr. Arens. But you know they did merge ?
Mr. Wenning. ^es. They merged about 2 or 3 years after I left
the organization, I guess.
Mr. Arens. Now directing your attention exclusively, for the next
few moments, to the State, County, and jNIunicipal Woikers of Amer-
ica, who in the State, County, and Municipal AVorkers of America
at the time you left were the powders of the organization besides Mr.
Flaxer?
Mr. Wenning. And myself?
Mr. Arens. Yes. AVlio was on the executive board ?
Mr. Wenning. Yes, that is a good way of putting the question. I
am not certain of their executive board status, but picking them by
area, the important people from the areas were, from New York,
James King.
Mr. Arens. Do you have a recollection as to his official status with
the organization?
_ Mr. Wenning. He was president of the New York district at that
time. At least, I believe that was his title, president. If he wasn't
president, he was the head man, whatever his title was, and I am quite
sure it was president. Kobert Weinstein.
Mr. Arens. Could you kindly identify him by status?
Mr. Wenning. Well, he was the head of the Michigan district. I
say "head" for lack of knowing the specific official title. John Jeffrey,
from California.
Mr. Arens. I assume he was the head man in the California district?
Mr. Wenning. \Ye\l, no, I am not sure that he was. I am not sure
of that California situation. I just remember his being on an execu-
tive board, and I am not positive. I will have to say this : I am not
positive as to wliether, at the exact time that I left, he was still on
the executive board or not. I am just not sure. In fact, I think
perhaps not. There was a lot of business about him. He lost his job
and came back.
Milton Phillips, from Chicago. I am not sure whether he was on
the executive board, but he was the chief organizer in Chicago. Let
me say this : In one or two places, there were, on the executive board,
so-called rank-and-file members, that is, members who were not on
the payroll of the union.
I am not sure, for example, in Chicago, whether the representative
on the executive board was Milton Phillips, who was a person on the
payroll, or whetlier it was the president of some local which I just
wouldn't recollect.
There was someone from Pennsylvania. I am trying to think
of his name now. That was at the time that I left. Jack Strobel was
there from Pennsylvania.
Mort Furay was from Detroit, and there were a few other people
from New York who, if they were not on the executive bo^ard, were
important in the general scheme of things. Daniel Allen and, I
guess, Guinier, were of some importance in that situation at that time.
You see, there was a whole group from New York; there were five
or six people from New York, that were people, let us say, to be
reckoned with in the sense that they were influential in the New
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 53
York situation which was a dominant part of the national situa-
tion. Jack Bigel, for example. .
Mr. Arens. Are those substantially all of the powers m the State,
County, and Municipal Workers of America that you can recollect?
Mr. Wenning. Yes. There may be some that I am overlooking.
Mr. Arens. Could you give us substantially the same information
with reference to the Federal Workers of America ?
Mr. Wenning. No.
Mr. Arens. You just do not have sufficient recollection?
Mr. Wenning. More than that. I had no contact with the Federal
Workers of America. Perhaps, the best way to indicate that is this:
When they started the State, County, and Municipal Workers of
America, 1 lived in the city of Washington. At least, it was my
home headquarters when I wasn't traveling. That was from July
1937, until sometime in 1938. I think I lived here almost a yean,
and I don't think I saw an officer of the Federal Workers all the time
I was here.
Mr. Arens. Did Mr. Flaxer ever solicit you to join the Communist
Party?
Mr. Wenning. No.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been solicited to join the Communist
Party?
Mr. Wenning. I was a member of the Communist Party at the time
I first met Iklr. Flaxer.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly tell us of your Communist Party
activities and experience?
ilr. Wenning. Yes. I joined the Communist Party, I believe, on
the last day of April in the year 1934. I remember it was the last
day of April, because in view of my feeling at that time, I was anxious
to be a member of the party prior to the May Day parade of that year.
]SIr. Arexs. May I just interrupt you, if you please, to ask you if
you will kindly tell us about the causes for your joining the Com-
munist Party, who solicited you, how did you come to join it?
]\ir. Wenning. I will be very happy to do that.
Mr. Arens. And then .we will proceed.
Mr. Wenning. Well, yes, I would like that to be in the record, I
didirt v»ant to intrude, as a matter of fact, on you.
Mr. Akexs. We want you to make a full and complete record here
on the situation.
Mr. Wenning. Well, I will have to go back a little bit before
the year 1931. I have told you that I started to go to Columbia
University and left tliere. I wanted to be a writer. My family, at
that time, were so indulgent that tliey permitted me not to go to work
and not to go to school. They told me that I could take 4 years and
study in Avhatever way I wanted to, perhaps a high-water mark in
indulgence.
Mr. Arens. Was your family a family of considerable means,
financially?
Mr. Wenning. Strangely enough, no, not considerable means, but
certainly they had never been poor. Probably a typical middle-class
family. So I studied and I wrote, and I mentioned before that I
started to write a book. I was writing a book on ethics. I was in-
terested in problems of ethics. I was interested in the field of philoso-
phy, and I came in contact with Communist writings.
54 HiinvEKsrvK control of ttie upwa
Ml". y\iMCNH. Did yoii sjty ( /OinTriiinisJ. wilfors or wrilin<?s?
Mi-. WKNNrN(j. Writ iii^^s. And, tlir()ii<;li iiii accidciiL with a person
will) vvlioni 1 used (o phiy choss, who was iho.n an instructor at ('ohnn-
liia Univorsity, I one ni^ht iiK^t liis two sislors, wlio wero. tlicii nhoiit,
I vvoidd s;iy, one <j:iil wms nhoiit 15 iuid the oilier vvns l)(>,iw('(Mi 1(5 and
17, who wci'c. iiiciiihcrs ol' the Yoiiii;:; ( 'oiriiminisl Lcjijijitc. 1 l)cc;iuno
friv;ii\y i)it(M-OHt('d in llic, older sister and, in fact, I later married her.
Mr. AiMONK. She is your pi-esent wife?
Mr. Wknnino. No. J separated fi'oni hov in the end of lOIUJ or
I he l)e<i;innin<ij of H).*'.?. Anywjiy, 1 becMine very inleresled in the
whole problem of Conmninist pliilosophy sind its soundness or un-
soundness. 1 finjilly heciiuie convinced, on tlu^ bnsis ol" mII the thin<^3
tluit, seemed to nie (o be wioniii; with our own society and the wiiy it
Wiis worUin<i;, th:d, Miirxism iind the Conuuunist philosophy olb-red
)i. solution to these [)i-oblems, thfd, it seemed to be the ordy way to or-
<^!ini/e society in whnt I considered to be on a ti'idy ethicnl basis.
I thereu|)on felt that, if (»ne, had any «!;uts at all, and one became
convinced that this was the i-i^lit thin^, that you acted on it, you didirt
stand aside and ^i\(' philoso|)hical consent or philosophical ai)proval,
that, the whole essence of the (/onnnunist philosophy was based on
action. And while even at thai time I disa<^reed with a lot of prac-
ti(!a,l things that I saw in conunimism — I didn't, lilce the Daily
Worker, tlie iu)USenso that 1 saw in il, and I met many Comnuinists
that I felt were.irritalin<>; fools — I fell that it was the individuaPs
responsibility to beconui a, member of the, (!omnuniist Party and to
participate in it. And if you bdt thei'e were thin<»;s wrou^ with
it, to ivy and correct t hose'thinf»;s yoursel f.
T don't think it is farfetched to draw an analo<;y between that and
the fact that when I was I'J or \l\ I left my home to study to become
a, brothel- of the ('hi-istiau Schools. 1 was a devout Catludic. I had
the same feelin<»;. I <i;uess I did all thi'()U<2;h the youn<2;er part of my
life, a, feelin<!; that if you believed in somelhinu; that then you had
to car-ry it to its ultimate conclusion as, foi- exani|)le, you had to be-
come a Chi-isI iaii brolhei- or a |)J-iest,. Yon just could not be a layman.
1 felt if you approved of Conumiuist ])hilosoi)hy that you had to
become a (\)innnniisl, that otherwise you were shirlvinp; the moral
responsibility that, was befoi'(^ you. Ju that, manner, 1 joined tho
Conuuunist Party.
Ml-. Akkns. AVhere wns this?
Mr. Wknnino. That was in New York (Vdy.
Mr. Akkns. And in what year?
Mr. Wknntno. A])ril H)-'M, the eiul of Ai)ril. "It was really INIay 1,
\'X\\.
Mr. Akkns. At that lime you had not yet become associated with
(he union, ha,d you?
Mr. Wknnino. No. I think, liowover, that at that time I was a
memlxM- of the lii-st or<>ani/atiou I mentioned, which was a project
oriiani/at ion.
Mr. AicKNS. TheC^WA?
Mr. Wknntno. The AOl'K'R, tlie Associated OfTice and Professional
10nier<:;ency Kmployees, which was a forerunner of an ()r«2;anization
that l)(>came much more ])rominent which was known as the White
Collar ('ouucil of the Workers Alliance.
SIIBVEUSIVE CONTROL OF 11 IK I'l'WA 55
Mr. Ahkns. 1 wouUl jiisl sii^iivst to you now (hiil you prooivd witli
youi- Communist. Mllil'iMt ions iuul uuMnlK>rsl\i|) :uul (ako us up until the
iimo, \vi' undiMsliiiul, (hal you l).i'ok(> \vilh llic party.
Air. \\'r.NMNO. W'l'll, IIumv was nioro than ono broak.
]Mr. Akkns. I si'o. If you will just traco that for us in a manner,
at your own \)i\vi\ ploasp, siniiiar to the manner in whii'h you have
(•oviM'(>(l your (Mn|)loynitMit at'tixitios.
Mr. WKNNiN(i. \\\'ll, 1 riMuainod a momlu>r oC tho C'onununist Tarty
until tlu> lattiM- part of the yoar l!);^;"), in other words, about a yoar
and a half laid-, in oithor November or IXrember of that year tliere
was a sinudlani'ous rcsioii;>lion, on my part, and expulsion, on the
l)art of the Conununist Party. If you want, the backu'iound of that. —
do you, Mr. Arens'^
Mv. Akkns. Very briefly.
Mr. Wr.NNiNiJ. Well, brielly, T was the oriiani/er of my unit of the
Comuumisl Tarty, whieh was a unit in the MimTs 'I'ransient Division
of the Federal Tiansienl Bureau at, South Ferry, N. Y., whore I had
orjjanized this union that 1 mentioned before. As head of the union,
and intiMVsted rather zealously in the union, 1 was perhaps a hai'd
taskmastei-, anil 1 wanted everybody in the Communist l*arty working
in the union. This is my own interpretation of w hat happened. They
may have a dilVeiiMit one.
At any rale, there wimv many pt'ople in the imion, or a uiunber of
people in (lie union, wlio didn't do union work, 1 fi>lt, l)i>causi\ they
were afraid of losing their jobs — who were interested in all kinds of
other outside activities. Wlud the party refeis to as mass oinani/a-
tions, tlu> Americai\ L(>a_i2;ui> Against \Var and Fascism and the Leaiiue
for Spanish Di-moeracy, and so on. 1 mii^ht interpolate at this |)oint
and say that 1 never belouiied to any of those org'ani/ations. They
never litted into what I was interested in.
At any rate, they went through the ])i()cess of what is known in
the (^omnuinisl I*arty as brini;inii' char^i^s against me. They charii-ed
me lii'st of all with beiui^; what they callecl an economist, an econo-
mist beiuii; a person who is interest(>d solely in economic issues and
didn't ha\e an understaiidin«i- of |)olitical issues. I was also chari^ed
with beinii,' a. Loveslonitc, thouu;i» 1 had only the fainti'st notion of
who Lovestone had ever been, or what a Lovestonite was, or what
Lox'estoniteism was.
JNlr. Akkns. 'IMiat, was the si'n;ment of the party that had adlieri>d
t()»l. LoV(^stone, was it not '^
Mr. Wknnino. That is ri;>ht ; yes. At any rate, these chai-j.!;es were
bronchi a<:;ainst me by ol her miMubers of my unit, by the sect ion of the
party to which that unit was attached, l was indi<i;nant at what I
thoiiiiht. was a pietty shabby allair, and first I rid'used to <!;o to tlu)
meetinjj^ when 1 was calliMJ down there to answer those chari!,es. Then
I did <i() down one nitj^ht and sat in a nu>elini!; and I listiMied to these
charoi's. WIumi tlu\v wiM'e through, I made a. statement that, in sub-
stance, was that, my whole I'eaction to this thinn; was that, "This makes
me sick to my stonuich," and I walkiMl out the door.
I was thiounh; T (piit. I was latei' told by one o\' the menib«>rs of
the union that I had been exjudled.
Ml'. Akkns. You mean (>xpelled from the party?
Mr. Wknnino. From the party; ri<i;ht.. Now tluMi, that was in the
be<>;innin<:; of the winter, the end of f!).".r». 1 went on working in the
028.'}8— r.2 5
56 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Emergency Relief Bureau. In the spring of 1936, one of the young-
sters in the office who liked me ver}^ much personally, and who was,
at that time, affiliated with the party, and who was a member of the
union — and I continued my membership in the union although I was
inactive — sort of came to me as an emissary and approached me and
said, "Well, why don't we let bygones be bygones. The heads of the
union want you to run as president."
I was interested in the union. I guess I was not only interested,
but perhaps a little flattered at the possibility of becoming president
of the union. I agreed, "O. K., let's let bygones be bygones," and I
was duly nominated and finally elected as president of the AWPRA
at the time that Flaxer became executive secretary.
Now then, I would like to make a statement here, because I would
like it to be clear, that it is a difficult question for me to answer tech-
nically to say was I a member of the party from there on or wasn't
I a member of the party. If I make a prolonged statement on it, Mr.
Arens, it is not for the purpose of trying to obfuscate the truth but
to give the exact truth. I never joined the party after that again. I
never technically became a book-holding member of the Communist
Party from 1935 on. At the same time, I must, in all honesty, state
that I certainly was virtually a member of the Communist Party in
every sense of the word, let us say, from 1936, picking up in the
spring — well, no, not in the spring, because then I became president of
the union in 1936, a month or two after that, and I quit my job in the
ERB, I quit the union, I went to the University of Virginia.
When I came back in the fall, no one raised any question with me as
to whether I was a member of the party or not. I tliink everyone
presumed that I was, and I must in all honesty say that there was no
reason why anyone shouldn't presume that I was. I was certainly
in sympathy, in 1936, with what the party seemed to be doing then.
I don't want to make this too long a statement, and yet there are som^e
things that I have to say. But in 1936 and 1937, the Communist Party
throughout the world, and particularly in America, had launched
the united-front phase of their history. Everybody was to pull to-
gether, all democratic forces. The Communist party was merely the
most active, presumably the most intelligent, the most advanced in
their thinking, and so on. So that I must say that I had no real con-
flict with them. Maybe it was on minor things, but essentially I
agreed with them. I Avas in all of the councils of the party so that
I guess it is fair to say that not only did they regard me. as a full
fledged Comnnniist, but I certainly did nothing to prove the contrary,
and I regarded myself as a Communist, too,
Mr. Arens. I do not want to detract from the sequence of your
testimony here, but I would like to interject this question before I
forget it : When you say you were in the councils of the party, how
high up in the party did you get?
Mr. Wenning. How high did I get?
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been to Thirteenth Street.
Mr. Wenning. Yes.
Mr. Arens. To the second floor ?
Mr. Wenning. I was, I think, on all the floors at one time or another.
Mr. Arens. The seventh floor ?
Mr. Wenning. The fifth floor was the district, the New York dis-
trict, and the ninth floor was the national headquarters.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 57
Mr. Arexs. Have you ever been on the ninth floor ?
jVIr. Wenning. Yes, the fifth and the ninth, the fifth many times.
Mr. Arens. WoukI it disrupt your thinking here, or the trend of
events that you are giving- us now, to pause right there to tell us who
were the principal people in the party w^ith whom you had intimate
contact in this period in which you were on the ninth floor? By the
w\ay, it is a fact, is it not, that only trusted people can get en the
ninth floor?
Mr. Wenning. I think so. I think it is a fair statement.
Mr. Arens. Would you just pause right there so w^e have that in
the course of your testimony as to who these people were that you
were in contact with?
Mr. AVenning. Well, when we were all in the AWPRA, before we-
went into the CIO, the person from the Connnunist Party that was
assigned to work with us was a party organizer by the name of Sam
Wiseman who, I think at the same time, was an official or had been an
official in the Workers Alliance. No ; he was formerly the head of the
Unemployed Councils, and either was the party assignee to the
Workers Alliance or had some connection with it. Because of our
"svork in the Emergency Relief Bureau which dealt with the unem-
ployed, there was a tie-up there. In fact, one of the reasons we were
anxious to get in the CIO was to break away from that whole thing
they were dragging us into. xA.nvway, Sam Wiseman was one per-
son. After Me went into the CIO, the person that w^e first had the
most contact with was Rose Wortis, who was the trade-union direc-
tor, I think, for the New York district of the Communist Party.
There were many other people that we met with from time to time,
but she was the chief person. Later, when we to some extent moved
further away from the party, wdiich I will have to explain to you
later, you w^ould meet with a different person in the Communist
Party, depending whether it was a national problem that was in-
volved, that is, a problem involving the policy of the entire union, or
whether it was, let us say, a purely local problem. The national
person with whom we met was Roy Hudson. I would say those
were the people with whom we had the chief contacts.
Mr. Arens. I want to develop this a little bit more later on, but
was Mr. Flaxer with you in these consultations?
Mr. Wenning. I would say almost all of them.
Mr. Arens. To your knowledge, has he ever been on the ninth
floor?
Mr. Wenning. Yes. I have been on the ninth floor with him. I
can remember at least one occasion very well.
Mr. Arens. Are you prepared to say that Mr. Flaxer was a mem-
ber of the Communist Party, to your knowledge ?
Mr. Wenning. To the best of my knowledge, I would say there
was Jio question about it.
Mr. Arens. Now proceed, if you please, on the sequence of events.
Mr. Wenning. May I just make this clear on Mr. Flaxer?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Wenning. You know that kind of thing, you say "to your
knowledge," but there is always a question of what people mean. I
never saw a party membershi]) book that belonged to Abram Flaxer,
but it w^as always understood between us that we both were members
58 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
of the Communist Party. We both attended many meetings with
officials of the Communist Party.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever attend a closed-party meeting with Abram
Flaxer?
Mr. Wenning. What do you mean, Mr. Arens, by a closed-party
meeting ?
Mr. Arens. I am surprised you don't know what it means.
Mr. Wenning. Well, I think it could mean a lot of different things.
Mr. Arens. A meeting which is open only to reliable Communists.
Mr. Wenning. Well, we had many meetings of what was known
as the fraction of the AWPRA.
Mr. Arens. The fraction was the Communist segment?
Mr. Wenning. Well, it was many Communist units. It was the
-entire Communist membership within the union. Then we had a
leading fraction of which Mr. Flaxer and I were both members. We
both attended many meetings of that.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever attend a meeting with Guinier?
Mr. Wenning. I never met Guinier until somewhere around 1939,
maybe late in 1938, at which point we had already moved away from
fraction meetings. We had moved away from fraction meetings so
that it was not common to meet people in those closed meetings where,
one might say, "Well, here all these people are members of the Com-
munist Party." Yet I did attend, on at least a few occasions, meetings
where there were disputes between Mr. Flaxer and myself on the one
hand and Mr. Guinier and others in the New York district on the
other hand, where we met in consultation with a representative of the
Communist Party for the purpose of trying to settle these disputes.
In other words, we went to the fifth floor, or, the fifth floor came to us.
Mr. Arens. I am not clear on Guinier.
IMr. Wenning. That is Guinier I am talking about. I have at-
tended such meetings with him.
Mr. Arens. Has Guinier been on the fifth floor, to your knowledge,
or been in closed sessions with the Communist Party members?
Mr. Wenning. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Are you prepared to state that Mr. Guinier, to your
knowledge, was a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Wenning. I would like to say this: To the very best of my
belief he was. I am not trying to quibble with you, I am just trying
to be accurate. There Avas never any question in my mind that he
was a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Arens. Do you have a recollection of with whom you conversed
on the ninth floor?
Mr. Wenning. On the ninth floor ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Wenning. I sure do. I remember the most vivid meeting I
had on the ninth floor — although there may have been more than
these present — was a meeting between Jack Stachel, Flaxer, and
myself, and James W. Ford.
Mr. Arens. Will you kindly pause to identify Jack Stachel ?
Mr. Wenning. I don't know that I can give you a complete identi-
fication. He was national trade-union director. I think he was then
the secretary — wait a minute. No, Browder was the secretary of
the Communist Party. I don't know what Stachel's exact title was,
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 59
but he may have been organizational director. But to us, at any
rate, he Avas, for a long- time, the top man on trade-union matters.
Mr. Arens. He was the big boss, was he not ?
Mr. Wenning. Well, no. Browder was the big boss.
Mr. Arens. I mean the big boss as far as you were concerned with
your immediate contacts.
Mr. Wenning. No. In our immediate contact, Roy Hudson was
the person that w^e were supposed to consult with. He was trade-
union director. Stachel was above that.
Mr. Arens. So he was bigger than Hudson ?
Mr. Wenning. He was bigger than Hudson. Stachel really was
almost the next man to Browder as far as we were concerned.
Mr. Arens. You did not have consultation with Browder, did
you ?
Mr. Wenning. I was at a meeting once of Comjnunist CIO trade-
union people at which Browder addressed them.
Mr. Arens. Was Flaxer there ?
Mr. Wenning. I think he was. I am almost certain that he was.
Mr. Arens. By the way, did you ever attend a Communist Party
meeting with Mrs. Flaxer?
Mr. Wenning. A Communist Party meeting with Mrs. Flaxer?
No.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not she was a member of the
party, and I am speaking of the first Mrs. Flaxer.
Mr. Wenning. Wait a minute. Do you mean the first Mrs.
Flaxer?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Wenning. Vivian?
Mr. Arens. A former schoolteacher.
Mr. Wenning. Yes, Vivian Flaxer. I am almost positive that I
never attended a party meeting with her unless you would have con-
sidered my being at their home and the three of us discussing party
affairs as being a meeting.
Mr. Arens. Are you prepared to identify Vivian Flaxer as a Com-
munist Party member?
Mr. Wenning. All I can say is that I always assumed that she
probably was because Abram was.
Mr. Arens. Before we get back to the trend of your testimony, in
which you are telling of your Communist Party experience, was the
State, County, and Municipal Workers of America under the control
and direction of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Wenning. I would say definitely that it was, certainly under
the direction and under the influence of the Communist Party.
Mr. Arens. Did the State, County, and Municipal Workers of
America submit their probl-ems to the party chieftains for solution
or for directions ?
Mr. Wenning. Very often. In fact, let me make the record clear.
When 3^ou say "was it under the control of the Communist Party?"
there were certainly occasions on which we proceeded to make our own
decisions in spite of what we thought the party might think and might
like and might not like.
Mr. Arens. But those decisions were made by Communists within
the organization, were they not ?
60 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Wenning. Yes, because we who were the heads of the organi-
zation were Communists. But on many, many occasions we did sub-
mit problems to officials of the Communist Party for their advice and
even decision.
Mr. Aeens. Do you have information as to whether or not the
heads of the Federal Workers of America were Communists or were
under Communist discipline ?
Mr. Wenning. I have none of my own direct knowledge because
I never attended a meeting that I can remember with officials of the
Federal Workers and ourselves and the party. My own knowledge on
that is a matter of hearsay. The fact of the matter is that Flaxer
was the person who used to meet with the Federal Workers whenever
such meetings were necessary.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not the Federal Workers of
America representatives consulted with the Communist Party leaders
on Thirteenth Street ?
Mr. Wenning. I was told that they did, but I don't know of my
own direct knowledge.
Mr. Arens. Now let us get back to the thread of your narrative
here, if you please.
Mr. Wenning. So from 1936 through 1941, I was a leader of the
union and whether you want to say a member of the party or virtually
a member of the party, or whatever the right thing is, I don't know.
But I would certainly say that, to all intents and purposes, I was a
member of the Communist Party and I attended meetings that were
meetings of Communists within the union, attended many fraction
meetings, and I gave reports to those fraction meetings as to what
the union was doing and accomplishing, I at one time attended a
meeting of the executive body that governed the New York State
Communist Party. I forget now what the title of it was, the New
York District of the Communist Party Executive Committee.
Mr. Arens. Do you mean the central committee ?
Mr. Wenning. No, that would be of the national party. I guess it
would be the district committee or whatever it was called. I delivered
a report to them either in the year 1938 or 1939.
Mr. Arens. Your report pertained to the activities and functions
of the State, County, and Municipal Workers of America?
Mr. Wenning. That is right, as to what progress we were making,
and so on.
Mr. Arens. Did the State, County, and Municipal Workers of
America contribute funds toward the Communist Party?
Mr. Wenning. Never.
Mr. Arens. Did the Communist Party contribute funds toward the
State, County, and Municipal Workers of America ?
Mr. Wenning. Not on your life. When you say "did they contrib-
ute funds
Mr. Arens. I mean as an organization.
Mr. Wenning. No. As an organization, never. There was never
any transfer of funds either one way or the other. There was a time,
there was a period, when the Communist Party felt, many officials of
the Communist Party felt, that those of us who were Communists in
the trade unions were having too easy a life, and they felt that we
should contribute something toward the support of the Communist
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE TJPWA ' 61
Party functionaries. I remember there was a period there of perhaps
a year, maybe around the end of 1939 or 1940 when all of us were
suJDposed to give it so much a week, maybe it was $5 or $10 a week,
out of our pay. I remember there was a period of time when such
collections were made, and I did make contributions at that time.
Mr. Arens. Then the individuals made contributions rather than
the organization, is that correct?
Mr. Wenning. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Now will you proceed, and I will try to refrain from
interrupting you until you have completed your narrative.
Mr. Wenning. So that, as I say, I was, to all intents and purposes,
a member of the Communist Party up until 1911. Now, in 1941, I
quit, and the only person I told that I was quitting was Flaxer.
Mr. Arens. Did he remonstrate with you ?
Mr. Wenning. Well, he argued with me, but gently. I guess "re-
monstrate" is a good word. He felt that I shouldn't do it, that 1 was
wrong, that I was foolish. When I left, I went to California, and
when I came back at the end of 1941 it was exactly the same kind of
situation. There were no questions asked. It wasn't "are you now
back in?" At that time, just before Russia entered the war, the Com-
munist Party was under a good deal of attack in this country, and
there had been a good deal of separation between the party apparatus
as such and the people who were members in the unions, in the CIO and
AFL. So actually, nobody bothered you with "are you a member or
are you not a member?"
Mr. Arens. Was that due to the invasion of Finland?
Mr. Wenning. Was what due?
Mr. Arens. This policy that you are speaking of.
Mr. Wenning. I think it was a part of something broader than
that.
Mr. Arens. The Hitler-Stalin pact?
Mr. Wenning. Yes, the whole conflict between our policy as enun-
ciated by President Roosevelt and the party policy enunciated by the
powers that be. So that again I can only say from about midway in
the year 1941 until I officially quit, in the beginning of 1944, as far as
I was concerned, I wasn't a member of the party and, during that
period, I had more and more conflicts. Flaxer, for example, told me
on one occasion that, Roy Hudson was very worried about me and
had asked Flaxer was I "O. K." or did I represent a potential danger
because of my disagreements.
Gil Green, who was then head of the New York Communist Party,
likewise expressed anxiety as to my status. I would say that they
regarded me as a Communist albeit a very shalr^ one at that time.
I couldn't argue with anyone. I mean, if someone came here and
said before you, '^Wenning was a Communist at that time," I could say
"Well, I wasn't." And it would be true, but it is a subjective truth.
During those 2 years, I was figuring either how am I going to get out
of here or how can I control this thing, how can I get some control of
it, which was not just an idealistic dream on my part because I was
a real power in the union. I had rather real power down below. I
had contacts with all the financial secretaries of all of the locals. I
was popular with the organizers of the union in the field. I was to a
great degree their person.
62 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Flaxer had become more and more the "political" leader of the
union. I was the person who was doing the organizing work. As
you can appreciate, while the top officers of the union were Commu-
nists, after all we had some couple of hundred locals and the over-
whelming majoritj^ of these financial secretaries and local officers and
committeemen were very far from being Communists. I don't know
what their politics may have been. Most of them were probably
Democrats or Eepublicans. They kneAV that our union had the repu-
tation of being a left wing or Red union, but they themselves definitely
were not. I tJiink I had a fairly big following.
For those 2 years I was struggling with this problem of where to
move to, if I moved, or whether I could control the union, or whether
through a breakaway movement I would just smash it up and leave
no union. When I finally got ready to leave, in the very beginning of
1944, when I discussed it with Flaxer, I discussed it frankly with him.
In fact, I remember his grinning at me and saying, "Well, what you
are saying is if you could have my job you would stay." I said, "Well,
I guess that is it and I am not prepared to split the union by having
an open fight with you in the union."
I told him at that time what my reasons were for wanting to make
a final break of the party, and my disagreement with the party, and
finally with something else that I might as well put in here, because
I would like to put it in, it was because I had learned then once and
for all that Communists and the Communist Party, despite all of their
real or alleged interests in the "masses," were not interested in people.
They were not interested in human beings. They were hard, ruthless
people. I mention that only because it comes to my mind, by asso-
ciation, in remembering that last conversation. I remember his saying
to me, "Well, you understand that these people came up the hard way,
and they have to be pretty tough."
Mr. Arens. You mean Flaxer?
Mr. Wenning. Yes. And I said, "All these fellows that we know
in the CIO, all who are Communists, who share so many troubles and
problems really don't like each other. And they should. There
should be love there." That is a silly phrase to introduce. "There
should be love there," but there isn't. They are really hard and tough
and I think fundamentally hostile people."
So that is my history in the Communist Party. I can certainly say,
however vague the rest of this history may be, that beginning with
January of 1944 I definitely and completely and unequivocally, and
in every sense, can say that I was separated from the Communist
Party.
Mr. Arens. I understood you to say that at one time you were sta-
tioned here in Washington.
Mr. Wenning. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Did you know any Communists in the Government?
Mr. Wenning. No. In the first place, I traveled out of Washing-
ton a good deal. That is when I was national organizer. I went to
California, I went to Ohio and other areas.
Mr. Arens. The national organizer of what ?
Mr. Wenning. The State, county, and municipal organizing com-
mittee. I didn't cotton too mucirto the people that I met in the
Federal Workers. There was a certain amount of rivalry, you know,
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPV^A 63
and perhaps jealousy between the two unions. You know, who was
going to be bigger and better.
Secondly, we always thought — when I say "we" I mean people who
were Connnunists in the State. County, and IVIunicipal Workers— that
the people who were in the Federal Workers, whom we believed to be
Connnunists, were always scared stiff, was the way we thought of it.
We just stayed away from them. Now, it was always m}^ belief that
Flaxer had contact with them because there had to be some contact,
and Flaxer reported to me many conversations that he had with people
there. But as I say, that is completely hearsay.
Mr. Arens. Flaxer reported to you conversations with respect to
his contacts in the Govermnent ; is that correct?
Mr. Wenning. No; with officials of the United Federal Workers of
America.
Mr. Arens. I see.
Mr. Wenning. No ; I never at any time heard discussed questions of
contact with people in the Government. I knew some people who
had been with the Government, but when I came in contact with them
or met them, or heard about them, they had left the Government.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wenning, could you give us some specific illustra-
tions of those instances in which high echelons in the Communist
Party, of the Communist Party headquarters in New York City, gave
you specific mandates on the operation of your affairs when you were
with the State, County, and Municipal Workers of America, in which
the interests of the Communist Party were followed rather than the
interests of the union ?
Mr. Wenning. Well, there were many occasions in which internal
organizational problems of the union were brought to the attention of
the party, and the party intervened with us for the purpose of influ-
encing what our decision on those matters would be.
For example, at one time we had an organizer who was a Negro,
whom Flaxer and, I would say, virtually everybody else in the union,
considered to be quite incompetent as an organizer. We wanted to
replace him with someone else. We were called to a meeting on the
ninth floor of the Communist Party headquarters
Mr. Arens. On Thirteenth Street?
Mr. Wenning. On thirteenth, yes. We held a meeting with Jack
Stachel, who was then a top official of the Communist Party, James
W. Ford, who was at that time, I believe, also a top official of the
Communist Party, in which this matter was debated. We were told
that we were wrong, we were accused of various political crimes, such
as not understanding the Negro question, of being chauvinistic in our
approach to this particular man, and we were told not only that he
had to stay on the job but that we would have to mend our ways in
relation to him. That is one example.
There were many other instances. I would have to have time to
recollect them. There were many instances where the policy of the
union was essentially dictated by the party, even though at such meet-
ings it might be said, "Well, now, you are going to make your own
decisions." Some lip service was given to the idea that we were going
to make the decisions. Nevertheless, the law was laid down and by
the time the law was laid down the majority of people who were Com-
munists, whatever they thought when they entered the meeting, ended
64 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
up thinking the way they were supposed to when they left the meeting.
Mr. Arens. Are there any other comments ?
Mr. Wenning. Yes.
Mr. Arens. I want the record to show, and it is a fact, is it not,
that you are appearing here under subpena ?
Mr. Wenning. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Well, I assure you, Mr. Wenning, the committee has no
desire at all to have your testimony, which I assume the committee
will eventually make public, have any harmful effect upon you, because
I think it is obvious from your testimony here today that you are
performing a loyal parti otic service to your Government in giving this
information to the committee.
We thank you very much for your testimony and your cooperation
here today. The hearing will be recessed, subject to the call of
the Chair.
(Wliereupon, at 12:35 p. m., Friday, September 28, 1951, the
hearing was recessed subject to the call of the Chair.)
SUBVEESIYE CONTROL OF THE UNITED PUBLIC
WOEKEES OF AMEEICA
FRIDAY, DECEMBEK 14, 1951
United States Senate,
Subcommittee To Investigate the Ad^iinistration
OF THE Internal Security Act and Other Internal
Security Laws of the Committee on the Judiciary,
Washington^ D. G.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to recess, at 10 a. m., in room 457,
Senate Office Building.
Present: Eichard Arens, staff director; Donald D. Connors, Jr.,
investigator.
"to'
TESTIMONY OF HENRY W. WENNING— Eesiimed
Mr. Arens. What is your information, Mr. Wennings, with respect
to Communist affiliations and activities of Jack Bigel ?
Mr. Wenning. At the time I was associated with the union, Mr.
Bigel was a member of the party and was active in the party faction
within the union and in the councils of the party generally.
Mr. Arens. In what union was he?
Mr. Wenning. He was an officer of the New York district of the
State, County and Municipal Workers of America.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Bigel is now a member of the executive board of
the United Public Workers, is he not ?
Mr. Wenning. I don't know. As a matter of fact, I think he was
elected to the executive board just before I left the union.
Mr. Arens. Is there any other comment or observation you want
to make with respect to Mr. Bigel ?
Mr. Wenning. No.
Mr. Arens. Alfred White.
Mr. Wenning. I never heard of Mr. White.
Mr. Arens. Kose Russell?
Mr. Wenning. To the best of my knowledge. Rose Russell was a
member of the Communist Party, and was the. person selected by
the fraction of the party and by the New York district of the Com-
munist Party to replace Bella Dodd when Bella Dodd left the lead-
ership of the teachers union in New York to assume the position
of legislative representative of the Communist Party in New York
State.
Mr. Arens. And Rose Russell is presently a member of the execu-
tive board of the United Public Workers, is that right ?
Mr. Wenning. That I don't know, Mr. Arens. At the time I left,
she was the titular head of the teachers local within the State, County
and Municipal Workers of America.
65
66 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Arens. Jack Strobel?
Mr. Wenning. I don't know of any Communist activity which Jack
Strobel participated in. I always assumed from his position in the
union and from my relations with him that he was either a close
sympathizer of the party or perhaps a party member.
. Mr. Arens. What was his position in the union ?
Mr. Wenning. At the time that I left the union, Mr. Strobel was
the head of the Pennsylvania district of the union, and was a member
of the national executive board.
Mr. Arens. Has anyone ever identified Jack Strobel to you, in your
associations in the party, as a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Wenning. I honestly don't remember, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Max Brodsky.
Mr. Wenning. Max Brodsky, at the time that I knew him, was first
president of local 46 of the State, County and Municipal Workers of
America. That was the winter and spring of 1941. Later he became
an organizer for the Pennsylvania district of the State, County and
Municipal Workers of America, and at the time that I left the miion,
I believe he was in the Army. I think I would have to say the same
thing about him that I would say about Strobel.
Mr. Arens. On the basis of your membership, experience and asso-
ciations and knowledge of the State, County and Municipal Workers
of America, what is your appraisal with reference to the Communist
control and influence of that organization ?
Mr. Wenning. At the inception of the union, the Communists in the
union controlled it completely. As the union grew in size and as new
locals were established away from the eastern seaboard, a lot of local
unions and local leaders and influences were brought into the union
that were not Communist, but despite that, I would say the Communist
control of the union remained virtually complete. In almost every
area, organizers and other key people were in the majority of cases
either party members or people who were considerd to be very close
to the party.
Mr. Arens. I think that completes our record. We thank you very
much for your testimony.
(At 10: 30 a. m., the above matter was concluded.)
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UNITED PUBLIC
WORKERS OF AMERICA
FBIDAY, OCTOBER 5, 1951
United States Senate,
Subcommittee To Investigate the Administration
OF THE Internal Security Act and Other Internal
Security Laws, of the Committee on the Judiciary,
Washington^ D. C.
The subcommittee met at 10 a. m., pursuant to notice, Senator
Arthur V. Watkins presiding.
Present : Senator Watkins.
Also present: Richard Arens, staff director; Frank W. Schroeder,
professional staff member; Donald D. Connors^ Jr., investigator;
Mitchel M. Carter, investigator; Edward R. Duffy, investigator.
Senator Watkins. The committee will resume the session.
The chairman has in his hands here the subpena issued to Mr.
Abram Flaxer. Is the witness present?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Senator Watkins. Will you stand and be sworn. Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony given in the matter now pending before the
subconnnittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. Flaxer. I do.
Mr. Chairman, I notice that we do not have a quorum of the
committee here.
Senator Watkins. We do have a quorum. Under our rules, which
we are to make, one present makes a quorum.
Mr. Flaxer. I am not sure about that. I would like to have the
record show that I object to the fact that I think there is no quorum.
Senator Watkins. The record will show your statement. Proceed,
please.
TESTIMONY OF ABRAM FLAXER, ACCOMPANIED BY DAVID REIN,
ATTORNEY AT LAW, WASHINGTON, D. C.
INfr. Arens. Will you kindly identify yourself by name and posi-
tion 'i
Mr. Flaxer. My name is Abram Flaxer. I am the national presi-
dent of tlie United Public Workers of America,
Mr. Arens. Mr. Flaxer, are you represented today by counsel?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Mr. Arens. May I suggest to the chairman that the counsel kindly
identify himself?
67
68 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Rein. ]\Iy name is David Rein. My address is 711 Fourteenth
Street, Washington, D. C.
Mr. Arens. How long have you been president of the United
Public Workers of America ?
Mr. Flaxer. Since 1946.
Mr. Arens. And where is your office located ?
Mr. Flaxer. In New York City.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing here today in response to a sub-
pena which was served upon you ?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Mr. Arens. The subpena is a subpena duces tecum, and commands
the production of certain records ; is that correct ?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And do you have those records with j^ou today ?
Mr. Flaxer. I have some. I produced all the items called for in
the subpena except one item.
Mr. Arens. May 1 respectfully suggest to the chairman that the
witness proceed at his own pace to identify the documents which he
has produced in response to the subpena, and then we will consider
whether or not those documents do comply with the subpena ; and I
would respectfully suggest to the chairman that, after he has identi-
fied each of the several documents which he presently has before him,
they be received for the record ?
Senator Watkins. That will be the procedure.
Mr. Flaxer. I am glad to do that. You requested, and I have, the
banks in which we have our funds as well as the total amount of our
assets, I believe.
I have here a letter from the Immigrant Savings Industrial Bank,
where we have a savings account.
I have here a letter from the Corn Exchange Bank, where we have
a current account.
I have here a letter from the East River Savings Bank, which is
a savings account.
I further have a bank statement from the Bankers Trust Co., identi-
fying a death-benefit fund that we have.
That is all of the money that we have.
You wished to know the sources
Mr. Arens. If you will excuse me just a moment, are these the only
documents which you brought with you bearing on the financial
situation ?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Mr. Arens. May I respectfully suggest that the documents which
have just been identified by Mr. Flaxer be marked "Flaxer Exhibits
1, 2, 3, and 4," respectively, and received for the record ?
Senator Watkins It is so ordered.
(Flaxer exhibits 1, 2, 3, and 4 were marked and received for the
record.)
Mr. Flaxer. You then asked for a statement which would identify
the sources of our income. I have here a statement that we give
annually to the United States Treasury Department which will give
in great detail the sources of our income.
Senator AVatkins It may be marked in the next consecutive order
as the exhibit.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 69
(Flaxer Exhibit 5 was marked and received for the record.)
Senator Watkins. Who x^repared this statement ?
Mr. Flaxer. That is prepared by our accountants. Then you
asked for a list of the contributions that ^Ye have given to various
organizations during the past 12 months. I have here a list of con-
tributions that we have given since May 1, 1950, through August 31,
1951, which is the latest record that we have.
Mr. Arens. This was prepared under your supervision and di-
rection ?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Senator Watkins. That will be received in evidence and marked the
next consecutive number.
(Flaxer exhibit No. 6 was marked and received for the record.)
Mr. Flaxer. I think that sums up the records which are required
with respect to the financial status of our organization. The item
which I have not produced is the item on membership lists of our
union. The demand for the production of this item raises a number
of profoundly serious issues. From the very beginning of the union
movement in this country, the rights of unions to the privacy of
their membership records
Mr. Arens. You are reading from a prepared statement?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Who prepared the statement?
Mr. Flaxer. I did. [Continues :] Has been one of the basic pre-
cepts to which the labor movement of America has adhered. Bitter
experience has taught American labor that the right to join a union
is an empty right unless the fact of membership can be kept private.
Throughout our history, employers and antilabor groups have at-
tempted to violate tlie secrecy of union records in order to compile
blacklists for the sole purpose of destroying unions. This has been
amply documented in the hearings of the La Follette committee.
After bitter struggles in and out of the Halls of Congress, labor has
succeeded in enacting into law this right of privacy. Countless de-
cisions of the National Labor Relations Board and of our Federal
courts have upheld that right. Indeed, the mere query bj' an em-
ployer of an employee as to his union membership has been held
to be an unfair labor practice even under the Taft-Hartley Act.
Every individual who joins a union joins it with the confidence
and trust supported by tradition and law that the act of joining and
maintaining membership is a personal right and freedom that is
inviolate. A request such as the present constitutes a wholesale in-
vasion of such privacy and "the right to be let alone" which is pro-
tected by the fourth amendment. Every trade-union member im-
poses a special trust in his union officers to protect and preserve that
right. Therefore, to submit to the request in this subpena would
be a violation of the trust imposed in me by my membership and a
betrayal of the entire tradition of the trade-union movement in this
country. I have no doubt that not a single union president would
find it possible to comply with such a request.
I am confident that the members of this committee, after consider-
ing my views and after a study of the full implications of the request
made in this subpena, will realize its conflict with the basic union
tradition of this country now incorporated into Federal law and with-
draw the demand for membership lists.
70 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Arens. Do yon have such a list?
Mr. Flaxer. I liave no such list with me.
Mr. Arens. Do the records of the United Professional Workers
reflect such a list? Is the information available, in other words?
Mr. Flaxer. I want to make a minor correction there. Our union
is the United Public Workers.
Mr. Arens. I meant the United Public Workers.
Mr. Flaxer. Your subpena stated "Professional Workers." I recog-
nized it w^as an ei-ror in your identification.
Mr. Arens. Did the United Public Workers' organization have the
information available which is called for in the subpena?
Mr, Flaxer. Well, we generally have such information.
Mr. Arens. Plow many members are there of the United Public
Workers?
Mr. Flaxer. I can give you a round figure on the basis of my esti-
mate. We have about 35, 000 members.
Mr. Arens. How many members does the United Public Workers
have who are employed in the Federal Government?
Mr. Flaxer. It is hard for me to tell you exactly. I would estimate
that perhaps about 5 pei-cent of the total would be Federal employees.
Mr. Arens. In what agencies of tlie Federal Government are there
employees who are members of the United Public Workers?
Mr. Flaxer. Again I am not giving you the exact information, be-
cause I don't know the exact information; but, generally, our mem-
bership is basically in the Bureau of Engraving, in the Treasury De-
partment, Post Office, Veterans' Administration. I think that would
be the main bulk.
Mr. Arens. The subpena calls for a breakdown of your member-
ship in the Federal Government by agencies in which the membership
is employed ; is that not correct ?
Mr. Flaxer. I don't know. I don't remember that.
Mr. Arens. The subpena calls for records of tl:ie union showing the
names and addresses of all members of the United Public Workers
who are employed by the Federal (Tovernment of the United States
of America, and records showing names and addresses of all members
who are employed by any State, county, or municipal government
located anywhere in the ITnited States of America.
Mr. Flaxer. That does not ask for a breakdown, department by
department. It asks for a membership of Federal employees.
Mr. Arens. I understand. You say a])])roximately 5 percent of
your 35,000 members are employed in the Federal Government?
Mr. Flaxer. That is true.
Mr. Arens. Where are the other 95 percent employed?
Mr. Flaxer. In the State, county, and municipal governments,
basically.
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify in general the agencies of the States
and the areas in the States in which the 95 percent of the membership
of the United Public AVorkers is emplo3^ed.
Mr. Flaxer. That is a pretty tall order. I can give you again a
general idea as I miderstand it. Mainly, we are organized among the
municipal employees and the county employees. We don't have too
many State employees, although I would say, too, there may be 10
percent, perhaps, maybe 5, because in some States there is a sort of
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 71
overlapping between connty and State employment. But, as I say,
mostly it is municipal employees.
Mr. Arens. In what States do you have a concentration member-
ship?
Mr. Flaxer. They are pretty evenly divided in a lot of States.
Mr. Arens. In what State do you have the largest number of your
employees compared to the other States ?
Mr. Flaxer. I would say New York,
Mr. Arens. How many local units are there of the United Public
Workers ?
Mr. Flaxer. About 100.
Mr. Arens. And where are they concentrated ?
Mr. Flaxer. All around the country.
Mr. Arens. Your greatest concentration, however, is in Mew York;
is it not ?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Senator Watkins. May I ask this question : Do you have the bar-
gaining rights for any particular institution or employees in any
particular institution ?
Mr. Flaxer. There are no such things as bargaining rights in that
sense of the word, sir, in the Government service. You take up the
grievances with the administration. You appear at hearings — that is,
wage hearings — before a budget commission, or appear before the
legislative halls to enact some legislation. You might appear at hear-
ings before the enactment of legislation on pay increases, and so on.
But we don't have bargaining in the sense that you do in private
industry. There are no contracts, no elections, none of that.
Senator Watkins. You are not required, therefore, to sign any
non-Communist affidavits?
Mr. Flaxer, No.
Senator Watkins. In order to represent these employees.
Mr. Flaxer. That is right.
Senator Watkins. That is, in the various other cai3acities you have
been talking about.
Mr. Flaxer. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Do you have membership in almost all of the Govern-
ment agencies ? By "Government," I mean the Federal Government
agencies.
Mr. Flaxer. No ; I said "No."
Mr. Arens. You told us where you had a concentration of your
membership in the Federal Government. Wliat Government agencies
do you not have ?
Mr. Flaxer. I don't know. I think, if j^ou would ask me more
specifically what agencies you have in mind
Mr. Arens. You said the Post Office, How many do you have in
the Post Office.
Mr. Flaxer. Not a hell of a lot, but we have a few locals.
Mr. Arens. How many locals ?
Mr. FLAxtR. We have three local unions.
Mr, Arens. Wliere are they located ?
Mr. Flaxer. They would be in New York and Chicago and Los
Angeles.
Mr. Arens. Wliat is your total membership in the Post Office?
92838 — 52 6
72 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Flaxer. Oh, I don't know. I guess maybe about a thousand
or so.
Mr. Arens. Tell us similar information on the Veterans' Admin-
istration, if you please.
Mr. Flaxer. I think that is mainly in the city of New York. The
number of members we have there I couldn't tell you, because I don't
know.
Mr. Arens. Would you have more than a thousand ?
Mr. Flaxer. No.
Mr. Arens. Less than a thousand ?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Mr. Arens. More than 500 ?
Mr. Flaxer. That I don't know.
Mr. Arens. How many Veterans' Administration locals do you
have ?
Mr. Flaxer. There is one local of Federal employees in New York
which encompasses all of the veterans employees, including the post
office employees.
Mr. Arens. How many do you have in the State Department ?
Mr. Flaxer. None as far as I know of .
Mr. Arens. How many do you have in the Treasury Department?
Mr. Flaxer. The Bureau of Engraving is the main concentration
there.
Mr. Arens. Approximately how many do you have there ?
Mr. Flaxer. I imagine about 500 ; maybe less.
Mr. Arens. What other Government agencies, and by Government,
I mean the United States Government, do you have membership in,
irrespective of the volume of the membership ?
Mr. Flaxer. Again I say I really couldn't tell you. I am on the
record here, and I would not want to give you a statement that may
not be entirely correct.
Senator Watkins. You can give your best judgment.
Mr. Flaxer. I don't know.
Senator Watkins. You don't have any judgment on that ?
Mr. Flaxer. Well, I don't have the facts on the basis of which I
can make a judgment because — I guess that is the answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully ask of the chairman that
the witness be ordered to produce for this record, in compliance with
the subpena duces tecum served upon him, the record of the United
Public Workers showing the names and addresses of all members of
the United Public Workers who are employed by the Federal Gov-
ernment of the United States of America, and records showing the
names and addresses of all members who are employed by any State,
county, or municipal government located anywhere in the United
States of America.
Senator Watkins. Do you understand the request made of you?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes ; I do.
Senator Watkins. Do you stand on your statement that you refuse
to produce those ?
Mr. Flaxer. I didn't say I refused. I indicated the situation is
such that I find myself incapable of producing them. I think if I
complied with a request of that kind, first of all I don't think I have
the right either in terms of our membership or in terms of the labor
movement generally
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 73
Mr. Arens. But you do have the information ?
Mr. Flaxer. In a general sense, I think I have the information.
Mr. Arens. And you have not complied with the command of the
subpena to produce that information.
Mr, Flaxer. I think it is an improper command, sir.
Senator Watkins. That is the reason you have refused to bring
them here today, because you think it is improper ?
Mr. Flaxer. That is the reason I haven't got them.
Senator Watkins. That is the main reason. You are directed by
the committee to produce those records according to the terms of the
subpena.
Mr. Flaxer. Again I plead with the chairman and with the com-
mittee to reconsider the entire matter, because I think you are infring-
ing on a right that workers in America have, including Federal em-
ployees. You are the Government. You are the employer. You
are as an employer asking for membership lists. You want your own
employees to identify themselves as to their trade-union membership.
This is something that has not been done in America for the past 10
•or 15 years, and where it has been done, it has been condemned as an
unfair labor practice. And I just don't believe, sir
Senator Watkins. As I understand it, you do not claim any rights
under the Taft-Hartley Act, because you have not complied with it,
and the Government itself, I think, would be entitled to know of its
•employees whether or not they are members of a union.
Mr. Flaxer. Then I think they ought to ask the employees. I don't
think they are entitled to know, sir. I don't think so. I think the
Government as an employer ought to adhere to the general national
policy on this question. The general national policy on this ques-
tion is that an employer has no right to ask a union member whether
he belongs to an organization even if he tells that union membership
that he doesn't even have to tell him. There are cases on record,
upheld by the Federal courts of the United States, where the em-
ployer is enjoined from asking a person whether he belongs to a
union, even though there is no punishment attached to it.
Senator Watkins. I would not argue with j'ou for employees out-
side of the Government service, or State, county and municipal serv-
ice. I am not going to argue that question because it is not at issue
here. But we have here now an organization made up of people
who are working for Government and we are asking you specifically
for the names of those who are working for Government. You have
that within your information and I do not think there is any law
or any court holding that the United States itself cannot find out
the names of a union and the people who belong to it that are in its
employ.
Mr. Flaxer. Sir, I don't think the issue lias ever come up before.
Senator Watkins. Maybe it has not, but I do not think any court
would ever resolve itself against the United States finding out what
organization its members belong to.
Mr. Arens. How long would it take you, Mr. Flaxer, to prepare
the information which is called for in this subpena ?
Mr. Flaxer. I don't know.
Mr. Arens. Could it be done in a week ?
Mr. Flaxer. I imagine it could be done in a week.
74 SUB^'ERS^'E control of the upwa
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suo^gest to the chairman that the witness
be ordered to produce the information and transmit it to the sub-
committee in 10 days' time.
Seiiator Watkins. Since you have made the reply that it could be
done in a week, that will be the order of tlie committee, that you sub-
mit that information as requested by counsel for the committee within
10 days from this date. The record will show that you of course have
been given that notice and that requirement has been made, and the
order has been made.
Mr. Flaxer. I would like to suc^est to the committee to reconsider
that. I think you ought to consider it in light of the facts that or-
ganized labor in America will recognize in this a break in the wall
that they have built up over half a century against the initiation of
blacklists. I don 't think that these lists can be looked upon in any other
light than as blacklists.
Mr. Adams. Who is the vice president of the United Public Work-
ers of America?
Mr. Flaxer. We don't have a vice president.
Mr. Arens. Who are the national officers of the United Public
Workers of America ?
Mr. Flaxer. I am, and Mr. Ewart Guinier.
Senator Watkins. May I direct your attention to the fact that
this is an executive session and the records are not jmblic here unless
the order of the committee is to make them public. But at least for
the present the records are to be delivered to the committee in execu-
tive session.
Mr. Flaxer. Sir, on that I don't see any good purpose that these
records would serve, even if I were to produce them. I think they are
wholly irrelevant, if you say they are not to be made public.
Senator Watkins. I am not promising you they would not be made
public, because I do not think the Government has to make such a
promise to get the information.
Mr. Flaxer. I think, with all due respect to the connnittee, you are
infringing here on an area Avhich just crosses the boundaries of indi-
vidual rights as well as trade-union i-ights far beyond the contempla-
tion of any
Senator Watkins. Whatever your argument is, that is the order
now, and, as I understand it, you refuse to do so on the ground you "
set forth. I want to make the record clear.
Mr. Flaxer. I haven't got them. I don't feel capable of producing-
them.
Senator Watkins. You said you could do it within a week.
Mr. Flaxer. No; that was not the question he asked. He asked
could the list be compiled within a week and I said it could.
Mr. Arens. The information is available to you?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Mr. Arens. But you have declined to produce it; is that correct?
Mr. Flaxer. I haven't produced them.
Mr. Arens. Will you produce it pursuant to the order of the chair-
man of this session within 10 days from today ?
Mr. Flaxer. I will have to take that under consideration.^
Senator Watkins. That is the order, and of course we will have
to take whatever steps are necessary if at the end of the time you have
not produced them.
* The records were not produced.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 75
Mr. Arens. I understand you said you were the president of the
United Public Workers of America, and Mr. Guinier is secretarj'--
treasurer.
Mr. Flaxek. Yes, sir.
Mr. Akens. How long have you been president of the United Public
Workers of America ?
Mr. Flax£r. You asked that before; 194:Q.
Mr. Arens, What was your occupation or employment prior to that
time?
Mr. Flaxer. I was president of the State, County, and Municipal
Workers of America.
Mr. Arens. How lono; has Mr. Guinier been secretary-treasurer of
the United Public Workers?
Mr. Flaxer. 1948.
Mr. Arens. What was his occupation or employment prior to that
time?
Mr. Flaxer. I believe that he was the regional director of our union
in the State of New York.
Mr. Arens. What was his occupation or employment prior to that
time?
Mr. Flaxer. I think that he Avas an officer, I believe secretary-
treasurer of the New York State organization of our union.
Mr. Arens. Is the United Public Workers affiliated with any larger
labor organization?
Mr. Flaxer. No ; we are independent.
Mr. Arens. Has it ever been affiliated with any larger labor
organization?
Mr. Flaxer. United Public Workers was affiliated with CIO.
Mr. Arens. When did its disassociation take place ?
Mr. Flaxer. I believe in February of 1950.
Mr. Arens. How many locals do you have in the aggregate?
Mr. Flaxer. You asked me that one again.
Mr. Arens. Answer it again, then.
Mr. Flaxer. About 100, I believe.
Mr, Arens. What is the title of the chief officer of each of the several
locals?
Mr. Flaxer. President. I am not too sure whether in each local
the president — yes, the president is the chief officer.
Mr, Arens. What is the aggregate income of the United Public
Workers national organization from dues ?
Mr. Flaxer. It is in that statement. It varies from year to year.
I think the income in that statement for the last year was about —
let me refresh my memory on that,
Mr. Arens. Surely.
Mr. Flaxer. It says here $119,000.
Mr. Arens. What is your per capita assessment on membership?
Mr. Flaxer. We have no assessments.
Mr. Arens. Per capita dues.
Mr. Flaxer. Per capita tax is 75 cents per member, but that varies.
Mr. Arens. For what period of time ?
Mr. Flaxer, Per month.
Mr. Arens. How does it vary ?
Mr. Flaxer. If local unions request exonerations or a different
scale of the per capita on the basis of problems that they may have
76 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
and need income, it is discretionary with me to accede to their requests,
and there are some locals that have such allowances.
Mr. Arens. Does the United Public Workers have a board of
directors ?
Mr, Flaxer. Well, we have an executive board, if that is what you
mean.
Mr. Arens. That is what I meant, an executive board.
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Mr. Arens. How many members are there on the executive board?
Mr. Flaxer. Well, I think there are about three vacancies on it
now. I believe the board now has about nine members.
Mr. Arens. Who are the members of the executive board?
Mr. Flaxer. Well, I would like to think about giving you an an-
swer on that, because this again, I believe, impinges upon the whole
question of revealing membership lists. However, I suppose that
it is a matter of public record who the executive board members are.
I still think you are overstepping your bound in asking these ques-
tions.
Mr. Arens. You decline to answer the question ?
Mr. Flaxer. I have not said that. I am just thinking out loud.
1 object to that question.
Mr. Arens. Will you answer the question ?
Mr. Flaxer. I object to it.
Senator Watkins. Will you repeat the question ?
Mr. Arens. Do you decline to answer the question ?
Mr. Flaxer. I didn't sa}^ that.
Mr. Arens. Answer the question.
Mr. Flaxer. Do I have to answer it?
Senator Watkins. Repeat the question.
(The question was thereupon read by the reporter as follows : "Who
are the members of the executive board ?")
Senator Watkins. You are directed to answer that question.
Mr. Flaxer. Before that, may I know the relevance of that ques-
tion ?
Senator Watkins. This committee is making an investigation. This
is not a court, and we do not follow the court rules of evidence. We
are malring an investigation.
Mr. Flaxer. You mean you can ask me any question under the
sun?
Mr. Arens. That is not a matter for you to determine.
Mr. Flaxer. I am asking a question. I want to know what my
rights are.
Senator Watkins. I advise you that we can ask you any question
that we think is necessary to ask to get information to aid and assist
in the enforcement of law or in the preparation of legislation or the
change of legislation.
Mr. Flaxer. Just for my clarification, I trust you will bear with me,
but in what way would your knowledge
Senator Watkins. I do not intend to argue with you. That is what
we have in mind. We think those matters are necessary. That is
why we subpenaed you, and that is why we are asking the question.
I am not going to argue that matter.
Mr. Flaxer. I take it is an arbitrary request.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 77
Senator Watkins. "We cannot stop to argue with every witness
whether a question is justified or not.
Mr. Flaxek. I was not intending an argument. I don't want to
argue. I just want a little clarification for myself. You say this
committee is makino; an investigation for the purpose of enforcing or
preparing legislation, and I wonder what relevance the identification
by name of our executive board members would assist this committee
in preparing legislation or enforcing it.
Senator Watkins. That is entirely for us to determine Mdiether it
is or is not. I rule that it is. We cannot take each question standing
by itself and say this particular one does not have any relevance,
but the whole investigation when put together may be of great help
and aid to know.
Mv. Flaxer. I still would like to have the record show that I object
to the question.
Senator Watkixs. The record shows what you said and you said
you object, and you are directed to answer. That is the record.
Mr. Flaxer. The board members are myself, Mr. Guinier — that is,
Ewart Guinier — Jack Bigel, Alfred White, Rose Russell, Jack Strobel,
Max Brodsky, Max Roffman, and Goodman Brudney. I believe that
covers it. There are a number of vacancies, I don't think I left
anybody out.
Mr. Arens. Now, do the executive board members receive a salary
for their services on the executive board ?
Mr. Flaxer, Not for service on the executive board. They just
get — they do not get a salary for service on the executive board.
Mr. Arens. What is the occupation or employment of each of these
persons whom you have named as members of the executive board?
Mr. Flaxer. Well, Mrs. Russell is legislative representative for her*
local union and is paid by her local union,
Mr. Arens. What local union is that?
Mr, Flaxer, Local 555,
Mr, Arens. "Wliere is that located?
Mr. Flaxer. In New York City. Mr, Brodsky is employed by his
local union,
Mr. Arens, Which local union is that ?
Mr. Flaxer, That is local union 2 in Illinois.
Mr, Arens, What is his employment with that union?
Mr. Flaxer. He represents the union. He is their representative,
Mr. Roffman is also employed by his local union, and he is their repre-
sentative.
Mr. Arens. What is his local union, and where is it located ?
Mr. Flaxer. That is local 515 in Minnesota. Mr. Brudney is an
international representative. The international union pays his salary.
Mr. Strobel has a similar capacity. I guess that covers the lot.
Mr. Arens. How about Mr. White?
Mr, Flaxer, Oh, Mr. White, Mr, Wliite is a representative of his
own local union.
Mr. Arens. And what local union is that, and where is it located ?
Mr. Flaxer, That is local 20 in New York,
Mr, Arens. And he is paid by that local?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Mr. Arens. That is the Federal Government workers of New York ?
78 ' SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Flaxek. That is the Federal Government employees in Mev
York.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Bigel ?
Mr. Flaxer. Mr. Bigel — I don't know what local employs him and
pays him — I think he is paid by one of the local unions of New York,
or maybe a group of them are paying him.
Mr. Arens. How did these men get to serve on the executive com-
mittee ?
Mr. Flaxer. They were elected by their own constituency at our
convention.
Mr. Arens. And when was that ?
Mr. Flaxer. That was in 1950. We held that convention in
Chicago.
Mr. Arens. What was your personal income in the course of last
year ?
Mr. Flaxer. My personal income?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Flaxer. My salary is $6,000 a year.
Mr. Arens. What other income did you have ?
Mr. Flaxer. I don't have any other income.
Mr. Arens. Where and when were you born ?
Mr. Flaxer. In Lithuania, September 12, 1904.
Mr. Arens. And when did you come to the United States ?
Mr. Flaxer. I came here, I guess, in 1911.
Mr. Arens. And you obtained citizenshii) by derivation through
your father and mother?
Mr. Flaxer. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. That was in 1917?
Mr. Flaxer. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Give us, please, a brief resume of your education.
Mr. Flaxer. I went to the pul)lic schools in New York City. I
graduated from Boyce High, in Brooklyn. I got a degree from thp
College of the City of New York. That about covers it.
Senator Watkins. What did you major in ?
Mr. Flaxer. Science.
Mr. Arens. You did some postgraduate work in Columbia?
Mr. Flaxer. A little bit ; not an awful lot.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever attend any classes in New York City out-
side of the formal education which you have just related ?
Mr. Flaxer. I wisli you would identify that.
Mr. Arens. I just wondered if you have a recollection of any study
groups or study sessions which you attended outside of your formal
education which you liave just related?
Mr. Flaxer. I don't understand the question.
Mr. Arens. To be more specific, did you attend a Marxist study
group in New York City ?
Mr. Flaxer. I wish you would define that.
Senator Watkins. Is that not clear enough?
Mr. Flaxer. It is not to me.
Senator Watkins. I was going to suggest if you know whether you
have attended any special study groups, Marxist, Christian, Moham-
medan, or whatnot, tell us about it, the whole list of them, study
groups, any and all of them that you have attended.
SUB^■ERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 79
Mr. Akens. I think I can probably identify the group in the wit-
ness' mind by a few questions, if the chairman please.
Senator Watkins. If that will assist him to recollect.
Mr. Arens. You were married in 1941 to Charlotte Kosswag, were
you not ?
Mr. P'laxer. Yes.
Mr. Arens. In New Jersey.
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Your former wife was Vivian White, is that not cor-
rect?
Mr. Flaxer, Yes.
]\Ir. Arens. Her present name, your former wife, Vivian White,
is Mrs. Joseph Soboleski, is it not?
Mr. Flaxer. I don't know.
Mr. Arens. Did you and Vivian White, who was formerly your
wife, attend sessions of a Marxist study group ?
]SIr. Flaxer. I guess I refuse to answer that question, sir, on the
ground that my answer might tend to bring forth evidence that can
be used against me, and I plead the privilege of the fifth amendment.
Senator Watkins. I fail to see how the fact that you studied any
particular thing would incriminate you.
Mr. Flaxer. People are placed on the spot for their ideas these
days and for the books they read.
Senator Watkins. It is largely what they do.
Mr. Flaxer. I don't know. Is the act of studying an overt act?
Senator Watkins. I do not think so.
Mr. Flaxer. I don't know.
Senator Watkins. The fact of the matter is this committee is now
trying to study the so-called subversive movements in the United
States.
Mr. Flaxer. Eeally. You better watch yourself.
Senator Watkins. That is what I am telling you.. You are claim-
ing 3^ou should not answer this question. I direct you to answer this
question.
Mr. Flaxer. I am fearful that an answer to that shall not come
forth from me, and I plead the fifth amendment.
Senator Watkins. You are directed and ordered by the committee,
notwithstanding your plea, to answer that question.
Mr. Flaxer. I still refuse to answer on the ground that I have
already given, sir.
Senator Watkins. Very well. The record is made.
' Mr. Arens. I forgot one question with reference to the over-all
organization that I wanted to ask you. We will refer to that for a
moment, Mr, Flaxer. What publications, if any, are issued by the
United Public Workers?
Mr. Flaxer. None. Just a moment. Are you talking about regu-
lar publications ?
Mr. Arens, Regular or irregular.
Mr. Flaxer. Well, then, I want to withdraw that answer, because
I thought you were referring to a regular monthly or weekly publica-
tion. We don't have a regular publication, but from time to time we
might publish a pamphlet or leaflet or a news letter. It is on an
irregular basis.
80 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Arens. I observe here in the list of contributions, a contribution
of $25 to the Willie McGee Defense Fund. Do you have any informa-
tion resiDecting that organization?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes. I don't know what you mean by information.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not the Willie McGee Defense
Fund organization has been cited as a Communist-controlled move-
ment ?
Mr. Flaxer. I don't know. I can look it up. I have here a little
pamphlet of 135 pages.
Mr. Arens. That pamphlet I suggest to you, Mr. Flaxer, was pub-
lished prior to the activity of the Willie McGee Defense Fund.
Mr. Flaxer. I see. I have no information on that.
Mr. Arens. I see a contribution listed for the defense of Carl
Marzani.
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Do you have information respecting who Carl Marzani
was or is?
Mr. Flaxer. I received a letter from a committee outlining the case
for me.
Mr, Arens. What committee was that?
Mr. Flaxer. The Committee in Defense of Carl Marzani, I think,
simied by a very prominent columnist.
Mr. Arens. What was his name?
Mr. Flaxer. I guess, Mr. Stone, I. F. Stone. I was, very much per-
suaded by the needs and the propriety and on that basis made a con-
tribution of $25.
Mr. Arens. Was this contribution first discussed in the executive
committee ?
Mr. Flaxer. Well, the executive board authorized in the budget
contributions up to but not more than $1,200 a year that I could make
on the basis of my own discretion.
Mr. Arens. Was the contribution to the Willie McGee Defense Fund
made on your own discretion ?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And the contribution to the Committee for the Defense
of Carl Marzani was made on your own discretion ?
Mr. Flaxer. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. And the contribution for the repeal of the McCarran
Act was made on your own discretion ?
Mr. Flaxer. There is more than that. We as a union went on record
against the enactment of the McCarran Act and I think we are actually
participating in an effort to have the act repealed.
Mr. Arens. You say "we" as a union. Did the membership vote
on this matter?
Mr. Flaxer. I imagine we must have taken this matter up at our
convention in 1950 if the issue was current.
Mr. Arens. When was your convention in 1950 ?
Mr. Flaxer. In May.
Mr. Arens. The McCarran Act did not pass until September of
1950.
Mr. Flaxer. It did not. It was in the year. There was a lot of
discussion about the McCarran Act.
Mr. Arens. No, there was not. I don't want to testify here. I
wonder how you made your appraisal being against it ?
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 81
Mr, Flaxer. Our executive board has taken a position against the
McCarran Act.
Mr. Arens. But the membership has not ; is that correct?
Mr. Flaxer. I don't know.
Mr. Arens. I observe liere a contribution to the Federation of Greek
Maritime Unions. Was that made in your own discretion?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes. I think it was a very minor contribution, wasn't
it, about $10?
Mr. Arexs. Yes. I observe here a contribution to the United Labor
Committee of $150. Was that made at your own discretion?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Flaxer, I am going to name some organizations
here and I want you to know that the records of the House Committee
on Un-American Activities indicate that you are either a member or
a sponsor of every one of these organizations which I shall name. I
want you to comment on your affiliation after I name the organization.
Senator Watkins. Wliat do you mean by comment? Do you want
him to say whether he was or was not a member ?
Mr. Arens. I am going to elaborate that. Specifically I want you
to confirm or deny your membership or affiliation or sponsorship of
these organizations which I shall name and we will pause after I
name each one.
The Committee on Election Rights.
Mr. Flaxer. You say was named by the House Un-American
Committee?
Mr. Arens. The record of the House Committee on Un-American
Activities indicate that you are either a member or sponsor of each
one of these organizations which I shall read to you, and I want you
to confirm or deny your membership or affiliation or sponsorship of
these organizations.
The first one I call your attention to is the Committee on Election
Rights.
Mr. Flaxer. I am constrained to refuse to answer that question,
sir. I plead my privilege under the fifth amendment for not an-
swering.
Mr. Arens. Why?
Mr. Flaxer. Well, the Committee on House Un-American Activities
has compiled a list of organizations which they say is a guide to
subversive organizations, and publications, and in the context of the
present hysteria of America, and some of the laws, and context of
the work of this committee, I feel that an answer to that question
would tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Arens. May I read then the rest of the list? Let me read
the rest of the list. First is the Committee on Election Rights, the
Shappes Defense Committee, Joint Committee for Trade Union
Rights, the Committee for Defense of Public Education, Reichstag
Fire Trial Anniversary Committee, Open Letter Defending Harry
Bridges, National Federation for Constitutional Liberties, American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, American Committee To
Save Refugees, United American- Spanish Aid Committee, Non-
partisan Committee for the Reelection of Congressman Vito Marc-
antonio, National Negro Congress, Social Work Today, Public Use
of the Arts Committee, National Council of American-Soviet Friend-
ship, and I ask you to confirm or deny your membership or affiliation
with those organizations whose names I have just read.
82 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Flaxer. My answer to the entire list is the same as I gave
on the first one.
Senator Watkins. That would be one by one and specifically your
answer would be the same to each one of them?
Mr. Flaxer. That is correct.
Senator Watkins. To make the record complete, you are now or-
dered and directed to answer those questions "including the first one
that was asked you.
Mr. Flaxer. I must respectfully decline to answer on the ground
1 have already given.
Senator Watkins. All right, the record is made.
Mr. Arens. Now, INIr. Flaxer, I want to read you some sworn testi-
mony wliich has been given to this committee by Mrs. Soboleski, who
has identified herself as your former wife [reading] :
Following those series of meetings, we went away from the city for about
2 weeks on a vacation. At that time, at the end of the 2 weeks, Mr. Flaxer
announced to me he was planning to join the Communist Party, and he was
utterly convinced of the validity of the theory and philosophy and he felt that
was the thing for him to do, to get into work in it.
I ask you if you will comment upon the statement made by Mrs.
Soboleski ?
Mr, Flaxer. No comment.
Mr. Arens. I ask you whether or not you announced to Mrs. Sobol-
eski as stated in her testimoii}' that you were planning to join the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Flaxer, May I have a Avord with my attorney?
Senator Watkins. You may consult your counsel.
Mr. Flaxer. All right, sir. I am constrained to refuse to answer
this question, sir, and plead my privilege under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Have jou ever used any other name besides the name
Abram Flaxer?
Mr. Flaxer. I refuse to answer that question, and ask my privilege
under the fifth amendment to refuse it.
Senator Watkins, You are directed and ordered to answer that
question,
Mr, Flaxer. My answer is the same.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever used the name of John Brant?
Mr. Flaxer. I refuse to answer on the ground already stated, and
ask for the similar privilege that I have already asked for under the
Constitution.
Senator Watkins, I am making the record on this. The same order
will be made.
Mr. Flaxer. Yes, I understand.
Senator Watkins. My ruling is, that as far as I can see, it does not
and should not and would not tend to incriminate you. You are di-
rected and ordered to answer.
Mr. Flaxer. My answer is the same.
Mr. Arens. I would like to read you some more testimony.
Mr. Flaxer. Go ahead. It is interesting.
Mr. Arens. Testimony of Mrs. Soboleski, an excerpt from the tes-
timony I am reading :
Q. I want you to be absolutely certain what you say with reference to the join-
ing by Mr. Flaxer of the Communist Party in 1935. How do you know that Mr.
Flaxer joined a unit of the Communist Party in 1935? — A. He told me he was
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF TPIE UPV^A 8S
joining and lie told me subsequently that be joined under the name of John
•Brant as a party name.
I ask you now if you told your then wife, who is now Mrs. Soboleski,
that you had joined the Communist Party under the name of John
Brant?
Mr. Flaxer. I refuse to answer for the same reasons given before.
I plead my privilege under the fifth amendment.
Senator Watkins. The same order will be made with each of these
questions, that you are directed and ordered to answer, and the ruling
is that as far as the Chair is concerned, and the committee is concerned,
it is our judgment it does not tend to incriminate you. I warn you that
failure to answer is probably punishable by contempt carried out in
the proper way according to the laws of the country.
Mr. FluVxer. I understand that.
Mr. Arens. I should like to read you some testimony :
Q. Did you at any time see his party card? — A. I cannot say any specific occa-
sion, btit I know I saw it at sometime following his announcement, probably
within months.
Did you at any time show a Communist Party card issued to you to
your then wife, who is now Mrs. Soboleski?
Mr. Flaxer. I refuse to answer for the reasons given and again re-
quest the privilege of the Constitution available to me under the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. I will continue with this same testimony, and it will be
the testimony of Mrs. Soboleski unless I otherwise designate.
Mr. Flaxer. And this is testimony before this committee ?
Mr. Arens. Under oath, yes, sir.
Q. Did your then husband, Mr. Flaxer, go to any of the cell meetings with
you? — A. None. W^e never attended the meetings together.
Q. Did you ever attend any of the meetings of the Communist cell of which he
was a member. — A. None. Party members were in my home at various times
discussing policy and plans and I sometimes was told so-and-so is a member and
sometimes I assumed it and just felt he was a sympathetic person.
Did you while you were married to Mrs. Flaxer, now Mrs. Soboleski,
ever entertain in your home in meetings members of the Communist
Party ?
Mr. Flaxer. I didn't quite get that. Are you asking me a ques-
tion?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Flaxer. I am sorry, I didn't get the question.
Mr. Arens. The question I just asked you is whether while you were
married to Mrs. Flaxer, who is now Mrs. Soboleski, did you ever have
Communist Party meetings in your home?
Mr. Flaxer. I refuse to answer on the ground stated and request my
privilege under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I should like to read some more testimony.
Senator Watkins. The same order will be entered in each case.
Mr. Arens (reading) :
Q. Have you seen the Communist Party card of Abram Flaxer? — A. Yes.
Q. And you identify him as a member of the Communist Party? — A. I do up to
the time I left or we separated.
What time did you separate from Mrs. Flaxer who is now Mrs.
:Soboleski ?
84 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Flaxer. I have just forgotten. Doesn't she say ? I am sure it
is in her mind.
' Mr. Arens. I am just asking you.
Mr. Flaxer. I have forgotten.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any conniient to make on tliis testimony?
Mr. Flaxer. No comment.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been at Communist Party headquarters
in New York City at Thirteenth Street?
Mr. Flaxer. I refuse to answer that, sir.
Mr. Arens. Why?
Mr. Flaxer. For the reasons given before to all of these questions
and request the privilege of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Henry W. Wenning ?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Mr. Arens. He was affiliated with the United Public Workers for a
while, was he not ? That is, with the predecessor organization of the
United Public Workers?
Mr. Flaxer. Which one?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wenning.
Mr. Flaxer. Which predecessor?
Mr. Arens. The State, county, and municipal organizations.
Mr. Flaxer. Because there were two predecessors.
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Mr. Akens. What was the name of the organization that lie and you
were in at the same time ?
Mr. Flaxer. You mean the union ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Flaxer. The State, County and Municipal Workers of America.
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Flaxer. The State, County and Municipal Workers of America.
Mr. Arens. And what Avas your connection with the State, County
and Municipal Workers organization at the time ]Mr. Wenning was
affiliated with the organization ?
Mr. Flaxer. I was the president. I have stated that before.
Mr. Arens. What was his office ?
Mr. Flaxer. He was the secretary-treasurer.
Mr. Arens. What organizations did you and Mr. Wenning belong
to beside the State, County and Municipal Workers ?
Mr. Flaxer. That is a peculiar question, sir.
Mr. Arens. You were both members of the State, County and Mu-
nicipal Workers, weren't you ?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Mr. Arens. What other organizations were you members of?
Mr. Flaxer. Be specific about that.
Mr. Arens. I am asking you to be specific.
Mr. Flaxer. I can't be specific unless you ask me a question.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of any other organization of which
Mr. Wenning was a member ?
Mr. Flaxer. You read a whole list of organizations, apparently,
that you claim
Mr. Arens. What organizations were you and Mr. Wenning mem-
bers of besides the State, County, and Municipal Union?
Mr. Flaxer. I think you have to be specific about that.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 85
Senator Watkins. I think that is as specific as anyone can make it.
Mr. Flaxer. You mean I have to rake my mind to tell
Senator Watkins. Why, certainly. We all have to do that when we
are on the witness stand. AVe have to probe our mind and dig and dig.
Mr. Flaxer. Suppose I give an organization which I think we both
belonged to, and he did not belong to, then what?
Senator Watkins. That is the best of your memory.
Mr. Flaxer. Then you have testimony in there that I said he be-
longs. I don't get that at all.
Senator Watkins. That is the question and you are required to
iinswer the best you can.
Mr. Arens. Let me pose a preliminary question. Were you and Mr.
Wenning members together in any organization to 3'our knowledge
other than the State, Count}', and Municipal Union ?
Mr. Flaxer. Any organization?-
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Flaxer. I suppose.
Mr. Arens. Now name some of them or name one.
Mr. Flaxer. I don't know. I suppose. It might be possible that
we could be.
Senator Watkins. You cannot of course give it if you do not know,
but if you do know that you were l)oth members of a certain organiza-
tion, then that is what we are asking for.
Mr. Flaxer. I think this is a question calculated to trap me into
some kind of an answer which might incriminate me.
Senator Watkins. It is trying to get an answer as to the factual
matter.
Mr. Flaxer. Let him say what organization he is talking about,
and I will be able to answer "Yes" or "No." But I just can't answer a
general question like that. I think it is a question
Senator Watkins. Do you not know of any organizations to which
you belonged?
Mr. Flaxer. I might, but I am not going to talk about it unless he
is specific.
Senator Watkins. You are directed to answer the question. I think
it is sufficiently specific. Do you know whether there are any other
organizations that you know that both 3'ou and he were members of ;
if you do, you are required to answer the question.
Mr. Flaxer. I object to that ruling.
Senator Watkins. That is all right. Your objection is on the record.
Now you are directed and ordered to answer the question.
Mr. Flaxer. I think that that question is a question that is calculated
to trap and to establish a link with something my answer to which
might bring forth, I am fearful about it, I am fearful it would bring
forth testimony that would be used against me, and incriminate me,
and I therefore refuse to answer the question, and plead the privilege
of the fifth amendment for not answering.
Senator Watkins. The record is made. We will proceed.
Mr. Flaxer. May I ask a question of Mr. Arens ?
Senator Watkins. If it is anything to throw light on the question
he is asking you, you may.
Mr. Flaxer. It will throw light for me. Did Mr. Wenning te,stify
before this committee and give you information to that effect ?
Senator Watkins. That is not a proper question.
86 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Flaxer. It isn't a proper question ?
Senator Watkins. No, it is not. The committee is not here for
questioning. You are here to answer questions.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not Mr. Wenning was ever
a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Flaxer. I refuse to answer that, sir, on the ground that an
answer might tend to produce testimony against me and claim the
privilege of the fifth amendment.
Senator Watkins. You are directed and ordered to answer the
question.
Mr. Flaxer. The same answer, sir.
Senator Watkins. The same answer means that you refuse?
Mr. Flaxer. I refuse and I give the same reasons and give the same
privilege.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Flaxer, you were present at a meeting of the Na-
tional Executive Committee of the Communist Party shortly prior
to April 23, 1940, were you not ?
Mr. Flaxer. I refuse to answer and wish to avail myself of my
privilege for not answering this under the fifth amendment.
Senator Watkins. Same ruling.
Mr. Arens. You were also present on November 25, 1940, at the
meeting of the New York City Communist Committee, isn't that so ?
Mr. Flaxer. Same answer as before.
Mr. Arens. On November 18, 1941, you attended a Communist
Party top-faction meeting in room 3220 at Barlem Tower in Detroit,
didn't you ?
Mr. Flaxer. Will you repeat that again ?
Mr. Arens. On ISIovember 18, 1941, you attended a Communist
Party top-faction meeting in Room 3220 at the Barlem Tower in
Detroit, didn't you ?
Mr. Flaxer. I refuse to answer that on the same grounds and same
reasons given before and ask for the same privileges under the Con-
stitution.
Senator Watkins. The same order as given in connection with the
previous questions and refusals.
Mr. Arens. Who is Roy Hudson ?
Mr. Flaxer. I don't understand that question.
Mr. Arens. Who is Roy Hudson. Do you know a man by the name
of Roy Hudson ?
Mr. Flaxer. The question is do I know a man by the name of Roy
Hudson ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Flaxer. I refuse to answer that one on the same grounds as I
have stated before and request the same privilege under the Consti-
tution.
Mr. Arens. Who is Eugene Dennis ?
Mr, Flaxer. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. Who is Lewis Merrill? Do you know a man by the
of Lewis Merrill ?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Who is he ?
Mr. Flaxer. He used to be the president of the United Office and
Professional Workers of America. If that is the person you are re-
ferring to.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 87
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. Do you know a man by the name of Eugene
Dennis ?
Mr. Flaxer. I refuse to answer that one on the grounds I have in-
dicated before for my refusal to answer and request the same privi-
lege under the fifth amendment.
Senator Watkins. The same order as entered with respect to pre-
vious questions which the witness has refused to answer for the same
reason.
Mr. Arens. Now, on February 8, 1944, did you make a speech in
New York City ?
Mr. Flaxer. I made a lot of speeches in my time. Do you expect
me to remember a specific date ?
Mr. Arens. You don't remember whether or not you made a
speech
Mr. Flaxer. You have to identify it, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Let me identify it by reading some of the statements
you made :
Comrades, I sort of feel that any of my remarks that I will make now will
be sort of echoes of the speeches made previous to me. And it occurs to me
that one of the reasons for it is that the line of the party on the Tehran Dec-
laration is so clear, and that the answers to all of the questions raised by
Comrade Foster seem to be so obvious, that they just occur to everybody. And,
therefore, I also wonder whether it's just a question of misunderstanding, or
lack of understanding of the significance of Tehran, or whether it's a refusal
to accept it. I'm very much impressed — I should say as I read the letter which
I got as I entered the room — One of the things that impressed me very much
is the — was what Gil Green and Gene Dennis termed the idealistic character
of the article. It just wasn't grounded in the scientific thinking— the kind
that we presumably are masters of, and which leads me to — if I may be * * *
to — a psychological approach to them, a riddle, as it were.
I think that there's a number of people in the country who are sort of getting
restless with the idea of the lessening of the class struggle. Well, they accept
it during the course of the war, no strikes and none of the * * *, but after
the war and the prospect of no class conflict and — no strikes after the war is,
to say the least, sometimes very depressing to some people, and I might say,
to others who are sometimes insecure in their own feelings in their own leader-
ship. Perhaps they look toward the possibility of class conflict and strike as
a sort of a way out to some of their problems. For example, I have heard
no less a person — mass leader — that R. J. Thomas, one time in answering some
of the difficulties that he had to face before the rank and file in trying to get
his union members not to strike at this time, saying, "Well, after the war I'll
be the first one to lead you." Now, naturally that was a response not based
upon an understanding of things or a desire to actually lead the workers, but
a. desire to sort of capitulate to their weaknesses.
Now that's one phase of it. And I think another phase is just not being
able to accept the idea that, well, a lessening of the class conflict. And that's
what the logic of Tehran is for this country, for the working class here. I
think that's what is implied in seeing the Tehran Declaration on — for taking
the Tehran Declaration on its face value, of reading something else in it,
because if we take it on its face value — Well, what does it mean, in fact? It's
the fact that, as Gil Green pointed out, of a compromise being arrived at
between two different worlds and signatures have been appended to that com-
promise, which changes all kinds of relations in the world. And if you take
that as a fact, and you see what has followed from it, well, then, if we want
to have certain kinds of struggles in this country * * * accomplished, then
we'll say, "Well, it doesn't really mean what it says, there's certain other things
implied."
For example, Comrade Sam Darcy talks about the second front — we have
neglected the cry for the second front. Now that has already been discussed
by another comrade, but actually that's not taking the declaration at its face
value. Comrade Browder says that we should now leave it to the experts.
All right, he's taking the whole declaration on its face value. And when I
92838—52 7
88 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
say on its face value, I don't have to emphasize that Comrade Browder is just
taking a superficial revlevp of the declaration. Face value means an evaluation
of the relationship of forces on the basis of objective facts and not on the
basis of subjective ideas. Now, I believe that is in substantiation of my con-
tention that this desire for sharpening of the conflict rather than lessening It
on the part of Comrade Foster.
I place before you his manner in which he singles out the whole question
of National Association of Manufacturers and what he considers the awful
misinterpretation by one of the trade-unionists of Comrade Browder's report
on the question of strikes. The very fact or very idea that some of the trade-
unionists look toward the possibility that there will not be any strikes is rather
appalling to Comrade Foster. And he holds up this business of the organized
movement of capitalism under the National Association of Manufacturers as
something that we have to not merely worry about but get organized to really
fifiht on the battlefield of — economic battlefield.
Now maybe it's said by some that well, Tehran really doesn't — or at least
we can make too much out of it. The fact that the Soviet Union has come to an
agreement with two of the major capitalist countries in the world should not
cau.se us to overoptimism on the question because — take a look at the fact that
the U. S. S. R. had agreements with other capitalist countries. For example, we
had an agreement with Turkey for many years, and while the agreement was in
force and effect they were hanging Communists in Turkey. Well, the agreement
in Turkev, the hanging of the Communists, occurred before Tehran, and Tehran
is a fundamentally different situation, as just an agreement between the Soviet
Union and one country, therefore, the sort of a stopgap or nonaggression treaty.
This is without question a notice to all the masses all over the world that when
Stalin signed the declaration that there has been a compromise, but the com-
promise is in the interests of the overwhelming masses of the people ; and thai
the masses of the people can develop new forms and other methods (if promoting
their interests and defending them ; and that this declaration, and the existence
of the Soviet Union, is one of the guaranties to enable the working classes all
over the world to promote their interests in ways other than the sharpening of
the class struggle.
Now, some discussion has occurred about the highfaluting economic level ou
the postwar situation. Now we fling around billions of dollars and try to prove
that we just can't spend that amount of money. Well, I don't knt)w, I can't
actually visualize such billions of dollars, but I also cannot visualize the stretches
of the world that have to be reconstructed after the war, and on the level on
which they have to be reconstructed. For example, the Soviet Union itself.
The great stretches of that land that have to be rebuilt. The great construction
projects that will have to go on in China after the war. And that is made pos-
siblr by the Tehran ac;reement. And of all lands, India, a great colonial country.
And all the other countries. My goodness, in South America — why, I can see
many years of peaceful construciiou thiouglioui the world, and the kind of a
construction on the l)asis of which it will be possible for the workingmen and
capitalism to profitably work together. And in the course of such a construction
obviously the well-being of the masses of the people are bound to improve. It's
not just going to be — as Gil Green pointed out — that the United States is going to
lend a couple of billions of dollars to Tito and Tito will be bought and sold.
That's kind of ridiculous. It will have to be a different form than it was in the
pre-Tehran days of investment and capital — a form under which it will be
possible for nations to develop in a more democratic way and in a freer way.
One other thought that came to my mind when Conu'ade Foster was discuss-
ing the question — the way in which he dealt with President RooseA'elt almost
made me feel that, well, some of the classics have not recently been read^
especially on the theory o-f the state. I mean, after all, the Roosevelt is not some
super government * * * and he certainly is not a president of a labor gov-
ernment. He is President of a cai)italist government that we have in the
United States. And that guy signed the Tehran agreement. He's the repre-
sentative of the capitalist class, the most powerful capitalist class in the world.
Now obviously if he did not have the support of the dominant sections of caj)-
italism in this country he wouldn't have signed the Tehran declaration. That's
the way it looks to me. And, therefore, I think it's erroneous to believe that
after the Tehran — after Hitler is defeated — that American capitalism will go
its imperialist way, because then we would have to say that the — well, Roose-
velt was lying and that the Tehran decision cannot be taken on its face value^
and that chaos is in the minds of the people who signed the Tehran decision.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 89
Now, one other point that I'd like to mention and I'll conclude. Comrade
Foster made much of the declaration of Comrade Browder about a coalition
ticket, the idea being that well, we're sort of selling out, that that cannot be
Roosevelt. And in addition to that, the idea is sort of put out here that, well,
we are not so interested as to whether Roosevelt will be reelected or not. Now,
gosh, that's flying in the face of fact. I remember after the — I guess it was
after tlie CIO Convention — some of us guys got together and Comrade Earl
Browder was sitting there with us and discussing it, and I think he pointed
out that one of the major weaknesses was a failure of a fourth-term resolu-
tion ; and he at all times, I think, gave us a very fine talk about misconception*
that existed in the labor movement about whether Roosevelt will run or will
not run. And I think that as a result of that talk, all of us were first clarified
about the utmost importance of raising a struggle « * * Yes, of drafting
Roosevelt and of labor being the base for his election. Now, therefore, in
line with that and in line with the consistent policy of the party — why look, ask
anybody in the street who is — who wants Roosevelt to run on the fourth term,
who is his most consistent support for a fourth term, and they will tell you,
the Communist Party. Now, too, on the face of that, to conclude from Com-
rade Earl's remarks that, well, we sort of don't care now whether Roosevelt
will run or not is kind of ridiculous. Obviously, when Earl suggested a coalition
ticket, let us say with Roosevelt and Willkie, why it meant Roosevelt in the
first position, President, and Willkie as Vice President or what not. And in-
cidentally I don't see anything outlandish in that. I think it's something, and
I think that somethin.i;- of this kind is enuTiently desired by the vast majority
of the people — proposal for the two parties to get together on this thing and
decide upon a proper ticket. WeJ, a proper ticket just has to be a ticket with
Roosevelt at the head of it.
Now. one final remark and I'll be through. Comrade Sam Darcy, before he
started to get down to brass tacks — and made a lot of what I call apologetics
for the forthcoming remarks, I think the main tune of it was that — let's come
to an agreement, don't draw the line sharply, and let's sort of compromise. Well,
that's something brand new in the Comnuinist Party as far as I know. I think
either we have a line or we haven't got a line, and either the line is correct or
it's not coi-rect.
And I don't, you know, we're not collective bargaining here. It's not, I'm
offering ,$.".() and you give me $35 and we'll settle for $42. It's $50 or nothing
or something else.
Well, sometimes it is necessary to exaggerate to see the point, to see either
the error of the way or the correct way. And I think that in the discussion
of this character — perhaps the sharpest kind of drawing of line is without ques-
tion necessary because any slight weakening of it leaves the way open for
further weakness and vacillations within the party which, over the years, we
have just united and we were proud of, and which I'm positive we will just
continue to have.
Did you make a speech Mnth that context in it which I have just
read to you on February 8, 1944?
Mr. Fl.vxer. Pretty involved, isn't it ?
Senator Watkins. Does it sound like you?
Mr. Flaxek. I refuse to answer tliat, sir, on the ground that an
answer niio-lit tend to incriminate me, and I plead the privilege of the
fiftli amendment.
Senator Watkins. You are directed and ordered to answer the
question.
Mr. Fl.axer. Same answer.
Senator Watkins. The record will show the witness refused,
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact that you gave the speech which I have just read at the meet-
ing of the political committee of the Communist Party in New York
City on February 8, 1944.
Mr. Flaxer. I gave the answer to that.
Senator Watkins. Is this the same question, Mr. Arens?
90 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
^ Mr. Arens. I didn't know that the record was clear on his declina-
tion to identify.
Senator Watkins. Your refusal will be the same to the second
question ?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Jack Stachel ?
Mr. Flaxer. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that I
have already stated, and ask for the privilege I have already requested
under the Constitution.
Senator Watkins. You are directed and ordered to answer.
Mr. Flaxer. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall a meeting on July 15, 1949, at the Bill
of Rights Conference sponsored by the Civil Rights Congress in New
York City?
Mr. Flaxer. Sponsored by the Civil Rights Congress ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Flaxer. I don't recall such a meeting.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact that you were in attendance at
the meeting, and that you made a speech in which you stated-^
We must fight for the freedom of the Communist and the Communist Party for
the sake of civil rights. This conference is a sign that people are becoming
aroused and fighting back.
Did you make that statement?
Mr. Flaxer. I might have.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever written for the New Masses?
Mr. Flaxer. I don't recall.
Mr. Arens. Didn't you write an article on April 27, 1943, entitled,
"No Room for Riddles," which appeared in the New Masses?
Mr. Flaxer. It is possible. I don't know. I don't recall.
Mr. Arens. The New Masses was the official monthly magazine of
the Communist Party, isn't that correct?
Mr. Flaxer. What did you say that time?
Mr. Arens. The New Masses was the official monthly magazine of
the Communist Party, isn't that a fact?
Mr. Flaxer. Is that what the masthead said ?
Mr. Arens. I am just asking you whether or not you know that the
official monthly magazine of the Communist Party back in April 1943
was the New Masses.
Mr. Flaxer. In view of the way in which this testimony has been
going, I think I want to plead the privilege and refuse to answer that
question.
Mr. Arens. You have already answered the question that you
thought you may have written articles for the New Masses, as I under-
stood your testimony.
Mr. Flaxer. I said I didn't know and it may be.
Senator Watkins. You did do some writing, did you not?
Mr. Flaxer. Oh, I wrote, certainly I did some writing.
Mr. Arens. In 1944, did you appeal to the President to release Earl
Browder ?
Mr. Flaxer. Again for the same reason I have just now indicated,
in view of the testimony and the way this hearing is going I decline to
answer that particular question and plead the privilege of the lifth
amendment.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 91
Senator Watkins. You are directed and ordered to answer.
Mr. Flaxer. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. In 1945, did you urge the commissioning of Communists
in the United States Army?
Mr. Flaxer. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. The Daily Worker of March 18, 1945, lists the name
Abram Flaxer as one of the individuals who is supporting the com-
missioning of Communists in the United States Army. Do you wish
to affirm or deny that fact ?
Mr. Flaxer. There is nothing to affirm or deny. I am not respon-
sible for what newspapers print.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever written for a magazine called Social
Work Today ?
Mr. Flaxer. It is possible. I don't recall.
Mr. Arens. Social Work Today has been cited as a Communist pub-
lication, do you know that?
Mr. Flaxer. I didn't know that. I think that it is cited here.
Senator Watkins. By "here," what do you mean ?
Mr. Flaxer. In this compendium of subversive organizations pub-
lished by the Un-American Committee. I see they cite that. That is
what they said. I wasn't aware of it.
Mr. Arens. * Shortly after the enactment of the Internal Security
Act, popularly known as the McCarran Act, did you participate in
a rally against the Internal Security Act ?
Mr. Flaxer. I am very sorry. Will you please repeat the beginning
of that question ?
Mr. Arens. In September of 1950, shortly after the enactment of
the McCarran Act, did you participate in a rally protesting the
Internal Security Act ?
Mr. Flaxer. I might have.
Mr. Arens. Under what auspices was that rally ?
Mr. Flaxer. I don't know what rally you are referring to. You
asked me whether I participated in a rally, and I said I might have.
"A rally."
Mr. Arens. Do you belong to any organizations or committees or
groups undertaking to repeal the McCarran Act ?
Mr. Flaxer. What do you mean by "belong" ?
Mr. Arens. You know what I mean. Are you affiliated or associated
in some organization which is undertaking to cause the repeal of the
Internal Security Act ?
Mr. Flaxer. That is pretty broad. As the contribution indicates,
I have contributed to a committee that is attempting to repeal the
McCarran Act.
Mr. Arens. Wliat does the Communist Party think about the
McCarran Act?
Mr. Flaxer. You ask them, huh.
Mr. Arens. What do you think about the McCarran Act ?
Mr. Flaxer. I think it stinks.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Dr. John Ernest
Reincke ?
Mr. Flaxer. It doesn't strike a bell.
Mr. Arens. Were you in the Hawaiian Islands in May 1947?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Did you see Dr. Reincke while you were there ?
92 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Flaxer. Unless you identify this man better than that
Mr. Arens. You identify him.
Mr. Flaxer. I wouldn't know.
Mr. Arens. Did you meet any Communist Party executives while
you were in Hawaii ?
Mr. Flaxer. That is the kind of a question that is in the category
of when did you last stop beating your wife. What do you expect me
to answer to that ?
Mr. Arens. Did you have any sessions with any top Communist
Party leaders in Hawaii when you were there in 1947?
Mr. Flaxer. I guess I will have to refuse to answer that question
i%i the same grounds that I have refused other questions.
Senator Watkins. You are directed and ordered to answer.
Mr. Flaxer. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. Did you have any sessions with Wilfred Oka while you
were in Hawaii ?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Who is Wilfred Oka ?
Mr. Flaxep. He used to be an international representative of our
union.
Mr. Arens. And he is now one of the two or three top Communists
in the Hawaiian Islands, is he not ?
Mr. Flaxer. I don't know that.
Mr. Arens. What caused your tour of the Hawaiian Islands?
Mr. Flaxer. Well, we were contemplating an organizing drive
among the public employees there.
Mr. Arens. How many members do you have in the Hawaiian
Islands ?
Mr. Flaxer. About a thousand.
Mr. Arens. In what units are they located?
Mr. Flaxer. Mostly county employees, some taxi workers.
Mr. Arens. Who is your top man in Hawaii ?
Mr. Flaxer. What do you mean by "top man" ?
Mr. Arens. The chief man representing the United Public Workers.
Senator Watkins. Probably you call him president.
Mr. Flaxer. No ; we have an international representative. Whether
he is the top man or not, I don't know. There are elected officials
there, I presume. But our international representative there is Mr.
Henry Epstein.
Mr. Arens. Do any of your members in the Hawaiian Islands work
in the Federal agencies there ?
Mr, Flaxer. I don't believe so.
Senator Watkins. Do they work in the Territorial agencies ?
Mr. Flaxer. I would doubt it. I would doubt it very much.
Senator Watkins. Are they all in the county and city government ?
Mr. Flaxer. I think they are mostly county-city hospitals, taxi
drivers.
Mr. Arens. Did you see John Wayne Hall, or M'ere you in session
with him while you were in the Hawaiian Islands.
Mr. Flaxer. Are you talking about Jack Hall, the regional director
out there of the ILWU ? .
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Flaxer. Certainly I saw him.
Mr. Arens. What was the occasion for seeing him ?
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE XJPWA 93
Mr. Flaxer. I discussed the possibilities of our putting on a drive,
the extent to which he could help.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not he is a Communist?
Mr. Flaxer. I didn't discuss these matters with him.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not he is a Communist?
Mr. Flaxer. Look, let me make it very plain. Any time you ask
me that kind of a question, I am going to refuse to ansAver.
Senator Watkins. For the purpose of the record, you are directed
and ordered to answer the question.
Mr. Flaxer. All right. Then I refuse to answer on the same ground
1 have already given and plead the same privilege under the Consti-
tution.
Mr. Arens. How many members of the executive committee of the
United Public Workers to your knowledge are not Communists ?
Mr. Flaxer. You are getting very tricky, aren't you? I refuse to
answer on the grounds that I have stated before and ask for the same
privilege.
Mr. Arens. How many members of the executive committee of the
United Public Workers to your knowledge are Communists ?
Mr. Flaxer. The same answer, the same reason, the same privilege
requested.
Mr. Arens. Does your organization, the United Public Workers,
preclude Communists from membership ?
Mr. Flaxer. Well, our organization lays no bars to membership on
the ground of race, creed, color, or political affiliation.
Mr. Arens. Does it preclude Communists from membership?
Mr. Flaxer. It does not preclude anybody on the ground of race,
creed, color, sex, or political affiliation.
Mr. Arens. Does it preclude Communists ?
Mr. Flaxer. I have given you the answer twice and I will repeat it
again.
Mr. Arens. Answer the question yes or no as to whether or not your
organization precludes Communists.
Senator Watkins. He has in effect said it does not, so I think the
question is answered.
Mr. Arens Are you now or have you ever been a member of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Flaxer. I refuse to answer on the ground already stated and
plead the same privilege.
Senator Watkins. You are directed to answer that question.
Mr. Flaxer. Same answer.
Senator Watkins. The committee will now be in recess until 2
p. m. today, and the witness is required to return at that time.
(At 12 noon, a recess was taken until 2 p. m., the same day.)
AFTER recess
(Pursuant to taking the recess, the subcommittee reconvened at
2 p. m.. Senator Arthur V. Watkins presiding.)
Also present: Richard Arens, staff director; Frank W. Schroeder,
professional staff member; Donald D. Connors, Jr., investigator;
Mitchel.M. Carter, investigator; Edward R. Duffy, investigator.
94 SUB^'ERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Senator Watkins. The committee will be in session. You may
proceed.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that Mr. Connors
of our staff continue with the interrogation.
TESTIMONY OF ABEAM FLAXER, ACCOMPANIED BY DAVID REIN,
ATTORNEY AT LAW, WASHINGTON, D. C— Resumed
Mr. Connors. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Flaxer, I have here a list of several agencies or branches of the
Federal Government. I would like to ask you whether or not the
UPWA has union members employed in these various branches.
The first one is the Atomic Energy Commission.
Mr. Flaxer. I am quite sure we don't have any there.
Mr. Connors. The second one is the Department of Justice.
_ Mr. Flaxer. I am equally certain we don't have anybody there
either.
Mr. Connors. The National Security Kesources Board.
Mr. Flaxer. I really don't know. I would doubt it.
Mr. Connors. The Securities and Exchange Commission.
Mr. Flaxer. I don't know.
Mr. Connors. The Reconstruction Finance Corporation.
Mr. Flaxer. I would doubt it very, very much.
Mr. Connors. You have some members of the union who are also
employees of the Immigration and Naturalization Service, do you
not?
Mr. Flaxer. I am a little bit concerned that 1 can't give you a real
definite answer. I doubt it.
Mr. Connors. Isn't it a matter of fact that in local 20 of United
Public Workers of America in New York City there are some mem-
bers of that union who are employed in the Immigration and Nat-
uralization Service ?
Mr. Flaxer. I don't know. It may be.
Mr. Connors. How about the Department of Commerce?
Mr. Flaxer. I still couldn't give you a definite answer.
Mr. Connors. Have you ever tried to organize — and I mean by
organize, have you ever tried to recruit union members in the Atomic
Energy Commission ?
Mr. Flaxer. No. At one time we had about a dozen students at
the Argonne Lab in Chicago, and they joined one of the other locals.
When I learned about it, I directed the regional director to eliminate
them from membership. I was uncertain about the jurisdiction in
that situation. I knew that one of the CIO affiliates was organizing
in Atomic Energy, and frankly I didn't want — at least I couldn't see
our union getting involved in organizing a field where another union
definitely had the jurisdiction.
Mr. Connors. Do you feel at this present time that your union has
jurisdiction to organize employees of the Atomic Energy Com-
mission ?
Mr. Flaxer. I will give you a better answer — we don't intend to
organize.
Mr. Connors. As a matter of fact, your union is no longer with
CIO, is that correct?
Mr. Flaxer. That is correct.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 95
Mr. Connors. You were expelled from CIO, is that correct?
Mr. Flaxer. That is correct.
Mr. Connors. And the reason for that expulsion was that the CIO
charged that the UPWA followed the Communist line, is that correct ?
Mr. Flaxer. That was the reason stated. It is not the reason.
Mr. Connors. That was the reason given by CIO.
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Senator Watkins. I am curious to hear what the reason was if that
was not it.
Mr. Flaxer. We had a situation in the CIO that involved a lot of
important organizational policies. For example, at one convention
Mr. Murray wanted an increase in per capita tax. We weren't against
an increased per capita tax if we could see a valid reason for it. We
wanted to know what the need was for it. We never were able to
get a financial statement. I have been on the CIO executive board
from the time the CIO was organized until our expulsion. I had
never seen a financial statement given to us.
Senator Watkins. Not since the Taft-Hartley law was enacted ?
Mr. Flaxer. I never saw it.
Senator Watkins. Did you try to get one ?
Mr. Flaxer. Oh, yes. I made several requests for it.
Senator Watkins. They refused to give you a copy ?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes, they refused to give us a copy. All that hap-
pened was that David MacDonald would get up and read off a lot of
figures from a lot of pages, just like that, and somebody else would
get up and say I move to adopt, and that was the end of that.
Senator Watkins. They did not circulate copies of what he read
around the meeting ?
Mr. Flaxer. No, sir.
Senator Watkins. Nothing was mailed out to the members, either?
Mr. Flaxer. Never. That was one item.
As I say, I didn't object to the per capita increase if the organiza-
tion needed it, but I wanted to know the need because it meant an
additional drain on the resources of our union. The reasons given
were that they needed some money for pay increases to the organizers
and to finance a southern organizing drive. To my mind they were
two doubtful reasons. Frankly, I thought that the organizers were
being paid enough. I didn't know the exact sum of money, but I
thought it was considerable. I know they got more pay than I did,
and I was an international president.
As for the southern organizing drive, I had had some very sad
experiences with CIO organizing drives in the South when we were
dawn there. Unfortunately, the policy of organizing Jim Crow
locals was pursued on the theory that jou have to organize in the
South on the basis of the traditions of the South. I didn't think that
the organized labor movement could accede to such conditions as
segregation, as Jim Crow.
Our union tried to organize on a non-Jim Crow basis and we were
dealt with rather severely by some of the CIO organizers down there
when we tried to do that. Apparently we evidently set an example
that they did not want to abide by or which sort of, I guess, exposed
Jim Crow policies. That was one of them. It was a very basic or-
ganizational question. It was an intraunion question.
96 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Secondly, CIO embarked on a program of rating its own affiliates.
Our union was rated by various organizations of CIO. Any protest
against that didn't seem to be of any avail. In fact, I remember one
executive board meeting voting against the lifting of the charter of
one of the organizations, not really the lifting of the charter, but a rul-
ing that one of the organizations go into another union. I voted
against it because that union had just had a conference or convention
or special conclave of some sort, and they had a poll of their member-
ship and their membership wanted to stay where they were.
I worked on the theory that a union ought to be ruii on the basis of
its rank and file. It may be advisable for an organization to go into
another one, but I don't think anybody should compel it to do so
against the wishes of the rank and file.
I think I engendered the hostility of Mr. Murray and some of the
other top leaders in the CIO for that. Then along came the election
campaign of 1948, and I objected to having our union in a' blanket
way endorse the election of the present President of the United States.
I had nothing against him really. That was not the reason. But I
tried to explain at an executive board meeting that aside from the fact
that I thought it would be unwise for labor to tie itself to a political
party, that as far as our union is concerned, we just couldn't do it.
It would be ruination for us because we have to deal with officials who
are members of the various political parties. As a matter of fact,
many of our members were active and are active workers in Republican
clubs in the counties and the Democratic clubs, and so on, and I could
not embarrass our people by coming out and saying that this union
endorses thus and so.
I again got an awful beating around the ears, a verbal beating, I
mean, for taking that position. I felt that not only should the trade-
union movement in America have an independent political position
and not be virtually the labor committee of the Democratic Party or
the Republican Party for that matter — it so happened that they tied
in with the Democrats — but that our union couldn't. We had to main-
tain an entirely nonpartisan attitude. Sure our locals may endorse
candidates here and there, but that is their business. We never dic-
tate to them. That was especially a big breaking point. It was a
source of great irritation.
Senator Watkins. You do not think it was because of their charges
that you were Communist or Communist-dominated or followed the
Communist line?
Mr. Flaxer. No; the trial shows that the charges didn't hold any
water.
Senator Watkins. Where was the trial held ?
Mr. Flaxer. The CIO headquarters. *
Senator Watkins. In New York?
Mr. Flaxer. No, in Washington, right here at 718 Jackson Place.
Senator Watkins. Did they permit you to testify there ?
Mr. Flaxer. Unfortunately they didn't. They limited the time of
testimony. Some of our people testified. I protested that I didn't
get a chance to testify but they said it is too bad.
Senator Watkins. Were you present?
Mr. Flaxer. Oh, yes, I was present.
Senator Watkins. Did they keep a record of the proceedings ?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 97
Mr. Connors. Isn't it a matter of fact that at the time you were sup-
posed to devote to testifying you devoted to cross-examination of CIO
"witnesses ?
Mr, Flaxer. I don't know what you mean by that. I certainly
examined the witnesses against me. That was my right.
Mr. Connors. Wasn't that the time during which you were to testify
and give your arguments ?
Mr. Flaxer. No. The days were not divided into hours saying that
hour A was FLaxer's hour and hour B is somebody else's hour.
Mr. Connors. At the CIO hearing, did you in fact deny you were
a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Flaxer. First of all, I was never asked that question.
Mr. Connors. You were asked the question this morning by Mr.
Arens.
Mr. Flaxer. We were talking about that hearing.
Mr. Connors. Let us talk about this hearing now.
Mr. Flaxer. O. K. I thought the Senator was interested in the real
reasons why we were kicked out of the CIO.
Senator Watktns. I asked for that, and you have given your ver-
sion. Did they give you a copy of the transcript of the proceedings ?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Senator Watkins. Do you have it now ?
Mr. Flaxer. I had to buy it. I don't have it with me.
Senator Watkins. Where is it now?
Mr. Flaxer. It is in the office.
Senator Watkins. It belongs to your union, of course '(
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Senator Watkins. I suggest you add that to the agenda . We would
like to have that brought in. You understand what I mean. The
hearings you had before the CIO.
Mr. Flaxer. Yes. I understand what you want.
Mr. Connors. Will you undertake to send that to the chairman of
the subcommittee?
Mr. Flaxer. I will take that under consideration. I don't have to
reject it now or accept it.^
Senator Watkins. When this other material is sent in within 10
days we want it on the same order.
Mr. Flaxer. I understand the demand.
Mr. Connors. Mr. Flaxer, you said a few moments ago in the talk
you made that it has been your position that a labor union, and I
suppose specifically your labor union, should be run for the benefit
of the rank and file members. Is that a correct appraisal of your
statement ?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Mr. Connors. Has that always been your view in conducting the
affairs of UPWA and its predecessor unions ?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes, I would say so.
Mr. Connors. Is it your contention that an organizer who is not
fulfilling his function should not be an organizer?
Mr. Flaxer. You are putting it very broadly. I would say in
general terms that is so.
Mr. Connors. Do you recall an organizer who used to work for you
or for your union called William Gaulden ?
^ This record was not produced.
98 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Flaxee. I remember William Gaulden. He never worked for
the United Public Workers of America.
Mr. Connors. He worked for the predecessor union, State, County
and Municipal Workers of America ?
Mr. Flaxer. I don't believe that. I believe he worked for a local
union.
Mr. Connors. Of which you were president, is that correct ?
Mr. Flaxer. No ; I was the general manager of that local.
Mr. Connors. Were you the principal officer of the union for which
Mr. William Gaulden worked ?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes.
Mr. Connors. Was it within your province to discharge him ?
Mr. Flaxer. Well, I don't think that it was. I think that I cer-
tainly had a lot to do with hiring and dismissing people, but I don't
think it was at that time my sole province.
Mr. Connors. Do you recall being dissatisfied with his work as an
organizer ?
Mr. Flaxer. I might have been.
Mr. Connors. Do you recall being dissatisfied with his work ?
Mr. Flaxer. There might have been some items in his work that
were not satisfactory. Other items were very satisfactory.
Mr. Connors. Do you recall agreeing with Mr. Henry Wenning
that Mr. William Gaulden should be discharged ?
Mr. Flaxer. That is a long time back.
Mr. Connors. Maybe I can refresh your recollection. I would like
to read, if the chairman will permit me, some extracts from the sworn
testimony of Mr. Henry W. Wenning in connection with this point.
[Reading :]
Question by Mr. Aeens :
Mr. Wenning, could you give us some specific illustrations of those instances
in which the high echelons of the Communist Party or the Communist Party
headquarters in New York City gave you specific mandates on the operation
of your affairs, when you were with the State, County, and Muncipal Workers
of America, in which the interests of the Communist Party were followed, rather
than the interests of the union?
Answer. Well, there were many occasions in which international organiza-
tional problems of the union were brought to the attention of the party, and
the party intervened with us for the purpose of influencing what our decisions
on those matters wovild be. For example, at one time we had an organizer
by the name of William Gaulden who was a Negro whom Flaxer and I would
say virtually everyone else in the union considered to be quite incompetent as
an organizer. We wanted to replace him with someone else. We were called
to a meeting on the ninth floor of whatever that address is, the ninth floor of
the Communist Party headquarters — —
Question. On Thirteenth Street?
Answer. On Thirteenth, yes. We had a meeting with Jack Stachel, who
was then a top official of the Communist Party, James W. Ford, who was at
that time, I believe, also a top official of the Communist Party, in which this
matter was debated. We were told that we were wrong. We were accused
of various political crimes, such as not understanding the Negro question, of
being Chauvinistic in our approach to this particular man, and we were told
not only that he had to stay on the job but that we would have to mend our
ways in relation to him. That is one example.
Do you recall the incident now, Mr. Flaxer ?
Mr. Flaxer. What is your question ?
Mr. Connors. I wonder if you recall the meeting which you and
Mr. Wenning had with Jack Stachel and James W. Ford in connec-
tion with William Gaulden, an organizer of the union.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 99
Mr. Flaxer. As to that question, I am constrained to refuse to an-
swer it on the same ground that I have refused former similar ques-
tions and plead my privilege in the same way.
Senator Watkins. The order of the chairman on behalf of the com-
mittee is that your answer.
Mr. Flaxer. Same answer.
Mr. Connors. Mr. Flaxer, do you frequently consult with Commu-
nist Party officials in connection with union business ?
Mr. Flaxer. I refuse on the same grounds, same reason, same
privilege.
Senator Watkins. Same order. You are required to answer.
Mr. Flaxer. Same answer.
Mr. Connors. Mr. Flaxer, have you ever had consultation with Gil
Green, who then was and still is head of the New York Communist
Party; that is, the New York State Communist Party, as to the re-
liability of Henry W. Wenning ?
Mr. Flaxer. Same answer, same reason, same privilege.
Mr. Connors. Again reading from the sworn testimony of Mr.
Wenning, the following appears :
Answer. Gil Green, who was then head of the New York Communist Party,
likewise expressed anxiety as to my status. I would say that they regarded
me as a Communist, albeit a very shaky one at that time. Flaxer, for example,
told me on one occasion that Hudson (and he is referring to Roy Hudson) was
very worried about me and asked Flaxer am I O. K. or did I represent a potential
danger because of my disagreements.
Now, Mr. Flaxer, do you know Koy Hudson?
Mr. Flaxer. I think 1 have given my answer to that question, if I
am not mistaken.
Senator Watkins. You may repeat the answer.
Mr. Flaxer. My answer to that question is that I refuse to answer
for the same reason, same ground, same privilege requested under the
Constitution.
Senator Watkins. The order is that you are required to answer.
Mr. Flaxer. I understand, sir, and I refuse for the ground given
and request the same privilege.
Mr. Connors, With your solicitude for the well-being of the rank-
and-file members of the UPWA in mind, can you explain to the com-
mittee why it is necessary for you to consult with Gil Green or Roy
Hudson or Jack Stachel or James W. Ford, all of whom are Com-
munists, with respect to union problems?
Mr. Flaxer. What do you want me to say ?
Mr. Connors. You have said in the record that you are concerned
with the rank-and-file members of the United Public Workers of
America.
Mr. Flaxer. I am.
Mr. Connors. I wonder if you can explain to the committee since
you have that concern why you find it necessary to consult with Com-
munist Party members with respect to union problems. I realize that
you have not admitted the discussions, but we do have sworn testimony
to that effect.
Mr. Flaxer. That is the sworn testimony of someone else. I refuse
to give you an answer on that.
Mr. Connors. You don't deny that these incidents mentioned in the
sworn testimony occurred, as I understand it ; is that correct ?
100 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Flaxer. I didn't say anything about that. I just gave my
answer specifically to the question that you asked.
Mr. Connors. Then I ask you at this time, did the conference be-
tween Mr. Wenning, Mr. Ford, Mr. Stachel, and yourself in connec-
tion with William Gaulden occur as it is set out in the record made by
Mr. Wenning?
Mr. Flaxer. I think I answered that by refusing to answer and I
refuse to answer on the grounds that I have already stated quite a
number of times here, and request the privilege of the fifth amendment
for not stating.
Mr. Connors. Then you don't deny that incident occurred: You
simply refuse to comment on it ?
Mr. Flaxer. I refuse to answer, as I said before.
Mr. Connors. As a matter of fact, at the CIO hearing you did not
-deny that you were a Communist Party member, did you, or to put it
another way, you did not affirm that you were not a Communist Party
member.
Mr. Flaxer. The question never arose.
Senator Watkins. Were you not charged with that particular
offense ?
Mr. Flaxer. Our union was charged with following the Communist
Party line.
Senator Watkins. Did you testify at all? You say you did not
testify ?
Mr. Flaxer. I did not testify.
Mr. Connors. Mr. Flaxer, do you know a man named Alfred David
Bernstein ?
Mr. Flaxer. Alfred David Bernstein? That is a rather common
name. If you will identify it a little more, I will be able to tell you.
Mr. Connors. Do you know a man named Alfred David Bernstein
who has been director of negotiation for the United Public Workers
of America, CIO, and held that position in November 1945 ?
Mr. Flaxer. Yes ; I know him.
Mr. Connors. Is he still affiliated with the UPWA?
Mr. Flaxer. No.
Mr. Connors. When did he cease that affiliation?
Mr. Flaxer. I guess it must have been the spring of 1950 perhaps.
That is a rough guess, but I think that is about the time.
Mr. Connors. To the best of your knowledge, is Alfred David Bern-
stein, or was he ever, a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Flaxer. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds already
given.
Senator Watkins. The same order for each of these questions where
you refuse to answer. The record will show you have been ordered
to answer in each case.
Mr. Flaxer. Same answer.
Mr. Connors. Do you know a man named Louis Budenz ?
Mr. Flaxer. I heard the name.
Mr. Connors. Do you know a man named Louis Budenz ?
Mr. Flaxer. Is that a question ?
Mr. Connors. Yes.
Mr. Flaxer. I refuse to answer on the grounds already stated and
request the same privilege.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 101
Mr. Connors. Have you ever consulted in Communist Party head-
Quarters in New York Citv with a man called Louis Budenz ?
Mr. Flaxer. Same answer.
Mr. Connors. Have you ever denied under oath that you are
a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Flaxer. Same answer.
Mr. Connors. Mr. Flaxer, are there any members of the UPWA
who are employees of the Federal Bureau of Investigation?
Mr. Fl.\xer. Didn't you ask me that question before?
Mr. Connors. No, I didn't. I asked you about a number of other
agencies but not that one.
Mr. Flaxer. I thought you said Department of Justice.
Mr. Connors. I did, but I am now asking you specifically about
the FBI.
Mr. Flaxer. No, not that I know of.
Mr. Chairman, on that question that he asked me, may I consult
my attorney?
Senator Watkins. You may.
(Consults with attorney.)
Mr. Flaxer. Mr. Chairman, may I have that last question and my
answer read back to me.
Senator Watkins. He can ask it again.
Mr. Flaxer. Do you want to ask it again?
Mr. Connors. Are there any members of the United Public Work-
ers of America who are also employees of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation ?
Mr. Flaxer. To the best of my knowledge, I don't know of any.
Mr. Connors. According to the records of the House Committee
on Un-American Activities, the Daily Worker of March 23, 1942, on
page 5, named one Abram Flaxer as a labor sponsor of the American
Committee To Save Refugees, My question in connection with that
comment is whether you were or were not a labor sponsor of the Amer-
ican Committee To Save Refugees.
Mr. Flaxer. I will have to look at this reference book.
Senator Watkins. Can you not remember without looking at that
book whether you Avere one of them or not ?
Mr. Flaxer. It is not so much a matter of my memory.
Mr. Connors, That book will not show whether you were or were
not a member, will it?
Mr. Flaxer. I want to see if that committee is on this list.
Mr. Connors. That is the only reason you are consulting that book,
to see whether tliat committee is on the list cited by the House Un-
American Activities Committee?
Mr. Flaxer. The only purpose this book serves is to tell me whether
that committee is named or not.
Mr. Connors. The book won't prompt your recollection as to
whether you were a labor sponsor of that organization.
Mr. Flaxer. Let me look at the book. What is the name of the
committee ?
Mr. Connors. I would like you to answer the question first. That
book will not prompt your recollection as to whether or not you
were in fact a labor sponsor of the American Committee To Save
Refugees, will it ?
Mr. Flaxer. I don't know.
102 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Senator Watkins. The answer is, you do not know whether you
were a member or not a member ?
Mr. Flaxer. I said I don't know whether this will serve to do
anything to my memory. American Committee for — what was that?
Mr. Connors. The American Committee To Save Refugees.
Mr. Flaxer. Any particular refugees ?
Mr. Connors. That is the name of the committee.
Mr. Flaxer. I see. Mr. Chairman, I see this committee is listed
here, and I refuse to answer on the ground that such an answer might
produce testimony that would be used against me, and I claim the
privilege of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Connors. The files of the House Committee on Un-American
Activities reflect that in a pamphlet called, I Know You Are My
Brother, and on page 11 of that pamphlet, one Abram Flaxer is named
as trade-union sponsor of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee.
My question in connection with that is. Were you, in fact, the trade-
union sponsor of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee?
Mr. Flaxer. I have to refuse to answer that question on the same
ground and request the same privilege.
\;Mr. Connors. Have you ever been in Russia, Mr. Flaxer?
Mr. Flaxer. Well, I was born in Lithuania.
Mr. Connors. And you came to this country
Mr. Flaxer. In 1911.
Mr. Connors. Now, since 1911 have you ever been in Russia?
Mr. Flaxer. You mean physically ?
Mr. Connors. Yes.
Mr. Flaxer. No.
Mr. Connors. How else could you have been there ?
Mr. Flaxer. I don't know. I am just trying to get you to tell me..
Mr. Connors. What occasioned your trip to Hawaii in 1947?
Mr. Flaxer. I think I told you that.
Senator Watkins. You can repeat it.
Mr. Flaxer. We contemplated instituting an organizing drive
among the employees there, and tliat is what occasioned my trip there,
to look at the situation and see whether it were worth while.
Mr. Connors. Who accompanied you on that trip to Hawaii?
Mr. Flaxer. Mr. Epstein.
Mr. Connors. That is Epstein on the executive board of UPWA?'
Mr. Flaxer. Not on the executive board. He is not on the execu-
tive board of UPWA. He is our representative in Hawaii.
Mr. Connors. Who else, if anyone?
Mr. Flaxer. I think his wife accompanied us.
Mr. Connors.' And that was all?
Mr. Flaxer. That is all I was conscious of.
Mr. Connors. Did you discuss union business with Wilfred Oka
in the Hawaiian Islands?
IVIr. Flaxer. Yes ; he was our representative there.
Mr. Connors. Did you discuss union business with Dr. John Ernest
Reincke ?
Mr. Flaxer. You asked me that question and I asked you to please
identify this man better.
Senator Watkins. Did you know anyone by that name over there t
Mr. Flaxer. Reincke?
Senator Watkins. Yes.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 103
Mr. Flaxer. It doesn't ring a bell in my mind.
Senator Watkins. Say you do not recall him or do not know.
Mr. Flaxer. I am not saying that. It may be that I ran into such
a man. But you asked me whether I saw Mr. Reincke ; it just doesn't
ring a bell.
Mr. Connors. Mr. Flaxer, do you know who Roy Hudson is?
Mr. Flaxer. I think that is about the fourth time you asked me that
question.
Mr. Connors. I think we asked you if you knew Roy Hudson.
Mr. Flaxer. What is the difference between that way of asking and
this one?
Mr. Connors. Have you ever seen Roy Hudson's name in the paper?
Mr. Flaxer. You mean did I see the name in the paper ?
Mr. Connors. Yes.
Mr. Flaxer. It is possible.
Mr. Connors. Do you know generally who he is, the same way you
might know who some other person is whom you have never met 'i
Mr. Flaxer. Did I see his name in the New York Times at any
time; is that it?
Mr. Connors. Let me put it to you as a fact, and I want you to
affirm or denv the fact that you have met with Roy Hudson on April 7,
1943, on May 18, 19-13, on May 22, 1943, and on December 16, 1944.
Will you affirm or deny those facts, those meetings?
Mr. Flaxer. I will refuse to answer and ask for the privilege.
Mr. Connors. Have you ever put Communist Party leaders in touch
with people in Government agencies who have furnished them in-
formation of a classified nature ?
Mr. Flaxer. Will you repeat that question again, please ?
Mr. Connors. Have you put Communist Party leaders in touch
with people in Government agencies who have furnished those same
Communist Party leaders or other Communist Party members infor-
mation of classified nature?
Mr. Flaxer. Do you want to be specific on that ?
Mr. Connors. I think the question is specific enough.
Senator Watkins. Do you know what classified means?
Mr. Flaxer. Not too well, to be frank with you.
Senator Watkins. Classified means it is information that is held
confidential by the Government.
Mr. Flaxer. And the question is that I put people in touch with
people who had that information. What are 3'ou trying to get at?
Mr. Connors. I can frame the question in a different way if you
wish. Have you ever discussed with Communist Party leaders or
with Communist Party members the availability of official information
of the United States Government through employees of various Gov-
ernment agencies ?
Mr. Flaxer. I?
Mr. Connors. Yes.
Mr. Flaxer. I don't know what you are cooking up here, but I want
to consult with my attorney on this question.
(Consults with attorney.)
Mr. Flaxer. Mr, Chairman, this question has got particularly in-
vidious implications. Under the circumstances normally it would
have been a simple matter for me to give you an answer, but under
the circumstances, and again the way in which this thing is going, I
92838—52 8
104 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
find that I have to refuse to answer the question because I fear that
my answer to that might do something in the way I would testify
would be incriminating, and I guess I have to plead the privilege of
the fifth amendment.
Senator Watkins. The record will show that you have been ordered
and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Flaxer. For the same reason, I just might add that this is one
of those filthy and dirty blows below the belt I resent.
Mr. Arens. If it weren't true, you could dispose of the question
simply by saying "No."
Senator Watkins. The only answer to it that we get, it is not
spoken in words, whatever it was you refused to answer in your own
mind would incriminate you, and you say in effect that might put
evidence against you of some offense. That is exactly what it means
to us.
Mr. Flaxer. I see where this thing is going. Go ahead.
Senator Watkins. He has refused to answer, and the record will so
show.
Mr. CoNNERS. Have you at any time discussed with Communist
Party members the possibility that people who are members of the
United Public Workers of America, and are also employed in agencies
of the Federal Government, mi»ht be available to act as couriers or
purveyors or grantors of classified Government information for the
benefit of the Communist Party of this country and for Soviet
Russia ?
Mr. Flaxer. That is a similar question. That is filthy, dirty.
Mr. Connors. It is very simply answered ; "Yes" or "No."
Mr. Flaxer. Invidious.
Senator Watkins. If you have never had such a conversation or
discussed it with anyone, you can certainly say "No." On the other
hand, if you have, you will probably claim the privilege. That is the
only way it will incriminate you,
Mr. Flaxer. Can I talk off the record on this ?
Senator Watkins. Go ahead ; we are talking on the record.
Mr. Flaxer. On the record I refuse to answer for the grounds in-
dicated.
Senator Watkins. The record will show that he has refused to an-
swer after he has been ordered and directed to do so. I repeat again
you are directed and ordered to answer that question.
Mr. Flaxer. I refuse on the same ground.
Senator Watkins. The committee will now recess to be called back
by the chairman.
The record will show also that this witness is still under subpena,
subject to the call of the chairman for further questioning if it is de-
sired.
(At 2 : 45 p. m. the subcommittee recessed subject to the call of the
Chair.)
SUBVERSIVE CONTEOL OF THE UNITED PUBLIC
WOKKERS OF AMERICA
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 11, 1951
United States Senate,
Subcommittee To Investigate the
Administration of the Internal Security Act
AND Other Internal Security Laws, of the
Committee on the Judiciary,
Washington^ D. G.
The subcommittee met at 2 : 10 p. m., pursuant to call, in Koom 411
Senate Office Building, Senator James O. Eastland presiding.
Present : Senator Eastland.
Also present: Richard Arens, staff director; Donald D. Connors,
Jr., Mitchel M. Carter, and Edward R. Duffy, investigators.
Senator Eastland. Mr. Bernstein, will you hold up your hand
please. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give
before the subcommittee of the Committee on the Judiciary of the
Senate of the United States is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
,but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Bernstein. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ALFRED BEENSTEIN, WASHINGTON, D. C.
Mr. Arens. Kindly
Mr. Bernstein. Haven't I a right to counsel ?
Senator Eastland. This is an executive session.
Mr. Bernstein. I want to make a formal request in the record that
I be permitted to have my counsel here.
Senator Eastland. The request is denied.
Mr. Bernstein. I wish to consult with counsel.
Senator Eastland. You do not have that right. This is an in-
vestigation by the Senate which is investigating treason and a bunch
of traitors, and we have the right to ask you whatever questions we
want.
Mr. Bernstein. I thought the most miserable felon had a right to
counsel.
Senator Eastland. You are not on trial.
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name and residence and
•occupation.
Senator Eastland. You are not under investigation, I will say that.
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.
Mr. Bernstein. Alfred Bernstein, B-e-r-n-s-t-e-i-n.
105
106 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Arens. And your residence ?
Mr. Bernstein. 4230 Chesapeake Street NW.
Mr. Arens. Washington,, D. C. ?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes ; that is right.
Mr. Arens. Your occupation ?
Mr. Bernstein. I am the proprietor of the Georgia Avenue Auto-
matic Laundry, 3218 Georgia Avenue NW.
Mr. Arens. That is located here in Washington ?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes.
Mr. Arens. When and where were you born, Mr. Bernstein ?
Mr. Bernstein. I was born in the city of New York on April 9,.
1910.
Mr. Arens. Give us, if you please, a brief resume of your education..
Mr. Bernstein. I hold two degrees from Columbia University.
Mr. Arens. Give us, if you please, a resume of your employment
since 1934.
Mr. Bernstein, Since 1934 I was employed for a period of 3 years
at Columbia University. I was assistant to Prof. Joseph McGoldrick,
professor of government, Columbia University, later controller of the
city of New York. Eoughly — I realize I am under oath — roughly
that employment lasted until 1937. In 1937 I came down to Wash-
ington, and I became a member of the staff of the Senate Railroad
Investigating Committee, commonly known as the Wheeler committee.
During that period I wasn't always on the payroll of the committee
itself, but I always was attached to it. You gentlemen know how
those tilings operate. In 1942 I entered the employ of the Office of
Price Administration
Mr. Arens. Weren't you in 1941 associated with the Brotherhood
of Railroad Trainmen ?
Mr. Bernstein. I am sorry, that was a 6-week job. I was still
employed by the Government. I took leave of absence, and did a
technical job for tliein.
Mr. Arens. What was the technical job you did ?
Mr. Bernstein. I helped prepare a wage case. I had become a bit
of an expert on railroad finance.
Mr. Arens, All right, now, 1942, if you will continue.
Mr. Bernstein. In 1942 I enteied the employ of the Office of Price
Administration. I was with tliat organization
Mr. Arens. What was your particular assignment?
Mr. Bernstein. I was an investigator.
Mr. Arens. Where were you located ?
Mr. Bernstein. In San Francisco.
Mr. Arens. All right, sir.
Mr. Bernstein. Supervising investigator. I stayed there until en-
tering the Armed Forces in 1943. I was with tlie Office of Price Ad-
ministration until 1943, when I entered the Armed Forces. I was in
the Army for a little over 2 years.
Senator Eastland. Were you a commissioned officer?
Mr. Bernstein. No, sir. I entered as a private and came out as
a buck sergeant. I served overseas for a considerable portion of that
time in the jungles of the Pacific.
Senator Eastland. What battles were you in?
Mr. Bernstein. I was in no battles. I was attached to the Air
Force. I was in the Air Force. I was under quite a few raids where
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 107
"I was. I saw enough action to satisfy me. When I returned I entered
the employ of tlie United Public Workers of America, and I guess
that was about November 1945.
Mr. Arens. In what capacity were you employed by the United
Public Workers of America?
Mr. Bernstein. Director of negotiations.
Mr. Arens. How long did you remain in that capacity ?
Mr. Bernstein. Until July of this year.
Mr. Arens. Then what happened ?
Mr. Bernstein. I was rechiced in force.
Mr. Arens. Were you discharged ?
Mr. Bernstein. No. Well, I guess I was discharged. There was a
reduction in force.
Mr. Arens. Who owns this launderette in Washington ?
Mr. Bernstein. I own it myself.
Mr. Arens. Did anyone finance the laundry for you ?
Mr. Bernstein. No.
Mr. Arens. Who else worked with you in Washington in the office
of United Public Workers?
Mr. Bernstein. A variety of people over the years.
Mr. Arens. Was Abram Flaxer there?
Mr. Bernstein. For a while, until the office moved to New York.;
Mr. Arens. Was Mr. Guinier there?
Mr. Bernstein. No.
Mr. Arens. When did he come to the United Public Workers?
Mr. Bernstein. I think Mr. Arens is under some misapprehension.
I don't want to lead him astray. Mr. Guinier was associated with the
New York district for a good many years. I was stationed in Wash-
ington. So we have never worked together in terms of occupying
the same geographical facilities.
Mr. Arens. Is Abraham Flaxer a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Bernstein. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest
Senator Eastland. What grounds did you assign?
Mr. Bernsti'HN. Of the fifth amendment, my privilege against testi-
fying against myself.
Senator Eastland. I do not think it applies in this. We did not
ask you if you were a member of the Communist Party. We did
not ask you a question as to anything that might incriminate you.
Mr. Bernstein. I think that incriminates me.
Senator Eastland. I order you to answer it.
Mr. Bernstein. I refuse to, respectfully.
Mr. Arens. In June of 1946 five employees of the United States
Army at Aberdeen Proving Grounds in Maryland were discharged
by order of the War Department because of their reported member-
ship in the Communist Political Association, Aberdeen, Md. Do you
have any recollection of that occurrence?
Mr. Bernstein. I decline to answer that question on the ground of
confidential relationship of lawyer and client.
Mr. Arens. Are you a lawyer?
Mr. Bernstein. I represented those people. Excuse me. I don't
want to misrepresent it. I represented those people. I am not a
lawyer, though I am a law-school graduate.
108 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Arens. Did you represent them officially as a lawyer?
Senator Eastland. Wait a minute. Have you been admitted to
practice law in Maryland?
Mr. Bernstein. No, sir.
Senator Eastland. Have you been admitted to the bar of th©
District of Columbia?
Mr. Bernstein. No, sir.
Senator Eastland. Where are you a member of the bar ?
Mr. Bernstein. I am not a member of any bar.
Senator Eastland. How could there be a confidential relationship
between attorney and client ? You are not an attorney.
Mr. Bernstein. In my capacity as a union representative I repre-
sented those people, and the same
Senator Eastland. Do you think the law and statute applies to a
union man, not a lawyer?
Mr. Bernstein. It was a legal proceeding. It was the kind of
legal proceeding that is recognized in the Government all the time^
and it has the same standards set up as a lawyer.
Senator Eastland. I order you to answer it.
Mr. Bernstein. I refuse to, respectfully.
Mr. Arens. On what grounds do you refuse to answer that ques-
tion?
Mr. Bernstein. On the grounds of the confidential relationship.
Senator Eastland. Between attorney and client.
Mr. Arens. You understand you are declining to answer these
questions at your peril?
Mr. Bernstein. I understand.
Mr. Arens. In the July 20, 1946, issue of the Baltimore Sun there is
an article which purports to quote you, Alfred Bernstein, then director
of Negotiations of the United Public Workers of America, with ref-
erence to your comments on the dismissal of these five Communists
from the United States Army. Do you have any recollection of issu-
ing statements at that time which were carried in the Baltimore Sun?
Mr. Bernstein. I have no recollection of that particular one.
Mr. Arens. Wliat is or was the Union Veterans Committee ?
Mr. Bernstein. I really don't know what you are talking about.
Mr. Arens. Didn't you about this time in 1946 lead a protest to the
then Honorable Robert P. Patterson, then Secretary of War with ref-
erence to the dismissal of Communists from the Armed Forces ?
Mr. Bernstein. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds that I have previously refused to answer about the Aberdeen
matter that you raised.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest to the chairman that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question.
Senator Eastland. Let the record show he is ordered to answer it.
Mr. Arens. Are you presently a member of the United Public Work-
ers of America ?
Mr. Bernstein. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the United Public Workers of
America until you disassociated from the United Public Workers in
an employment capacity?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Are you retaining your membership now ?
Mr. Bernstein. No, sir.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 109
Mr. Arens. Did you break with the Communist Party at the time
you disassociated yourself from the United Public Workers of Amer-
ica?
Mr. Bernstein. I decline to answer that question on the ground of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party prior to
the enactment of the Smith Act in 1940 '?
Mr. Bernstein. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Senator Eastland. Yes ; I order and direct you to answer that ques-
tion.
Mr. Bernstein. I am sorry, sir.
Mr. Arens. Who is Louise Bransten ?
Mr. Bernstein. I decline to answer that question on the ground of
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Louise Bransten ?
Mr. Bernstein. I know Louise Bransten.
Mr. Arens. Wlien did you last see her?
Mr. Bernstein. I decline to answer that question on the ground
Mr. Arens. Louise Bransten is a Soviet intelligence agent living
in New York, is she not ?
Mr. Bernstein. The same answer to that question.
Mr. Arens. Did you visit with Louise Bransten in 1944 when you
were in the Army ?
Mr. Bernstein. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. When did you last see her?
Mr. Bernstein. The same answer.
Senator Eastland. Let the record show I am ordering him to
answer each and every one of those questions.
Mr. Arens. How do you know there is an individual known a&
Louise Bransten ?
Mr. Bernstein. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. You testified that you know there is an individual by
the name of Louise Bransten.
Mr. Bernstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. You have opened up that area of inquiry. I am now
asking you when you first saw her.
Mr. Bernstein. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest if the record
doesn't so show that he be ordered and directed to answer these
questions.
Senator Eastland. The record shows he is ordered and directed to
answer each and every one of those questions.
Mr. Arens. He has admitted in the record that he knows Louise
Bransten.
Did you know Louise Bransten while you were wearing the uni-
form of this country ?
Mr. Bernstein. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. How long have you known Louise Bransten ?
Mr. Bernstein. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. Who is or was — and I am going to spell this name for
you — G-r-e-g-o-r-i, K-h-e-i-f -i-t-s ?
110 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Bernstein. Will you spell it again for me so I can see if I can
recognize the name ?
Mr. Arens. G-r-e-g-o-r-i
Mr. Bernstein. Yes ?
Mr. Arens. K-h-e-i-f-i-t-s.
Mr. Bernstein. Once again, I am sorry.
Mr. Arens. G-r-e-g-o-r-i ; the last name is K-h-e-i-f-i-t-s.
Mr. Bernstein. K-h-e ?
Mr. Arens. K-h-e-i-f-i-t-s.
Mr. Bernstein. The name means nothing to me, sir.
Senator Eastland. All right.
Mr. Connors. Gregori Kheifits is the way you pronounce it.
Mr. Bernstein. It means nothing.
Mr. Arens. You don't know him ?
Mr. Bernstein. No.
Mr. Arens. You were a member of certain organizations out in
San Francisco back in 1944; weren't you?
Mr. Bernstein. I was.
Mr. Arens. Did you know an individual by the name of Gregori
Kheifits out on the coast ?
Mr. Bernstein. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. In 1944 you were a member of the South Side San
Francisco Communist Party Club ; weren't you ?
Mr. Bernstein. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. What is your wife's name ?
Mr. Bernstein. Sylvia Bernstein.
Mr. Arens. In 1946 or 1947 you and your wife Sylvia Bernstein
were members of the Washington Bookshop Association; weren't
you?
Mr. Bernstein. I can't speak for her on that. I don't know if I
was or not. Let me put it that way.
Mr. Arens. Is your wife a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Bernstein. I decline to answer on the ground of the fifth
amendment,
Mr. Arens. Who is your lawyer here?
Mr. Bernstein. David Eien.
Senator Eastland. Who? What is his name?
Mr. Bernstein. Rien, R-i-e-n.
Mr. Arens. You and Rien attended a National Lawyers Guild con-
vention in Detroit in 1949 ; didn't you ?
Mr. Bernstein. That is corerct.
Mr. Arens. Do you belong to the National Lawyers Guild ?
Mr. Bernstein. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the American League
for Peace and Democracy?
Mr. Bernstein. I don't know. That is the truth.
Senator Eastland. Why do you not know ?
Mr. Bernstein. I don't know if I ever joined the organization. The
extent of my contact with it was to attend, I think, one meeting, a
large mass meeting addressed by a fellow named 'V^Tiitney from the
Brotherhood of Railroad Trainmen.
Mr. Arens. In 1947 you testified before the House Committee on
Education and Labor ; is that correct ?
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 111
Mr. Bernstein. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. That was a special subcommittee to investigate a GSI
strike; wasn't it?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes.
Mr. Arens. You testified that you handled negotiations and griev-
ances at that time for the United Public Workers; is that correct?
Mr. Bernstein. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. You gave testimony respecting a man by the name of
Eichard Bancroft; is that correct?
Mr. Bernstein. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. The record will show what you said. Did you talk
about Mr. Richard Bancroft in your testimony ?
Mr. Bernstein. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. How could your testimony, which is a published record
before the House Committee on Un-American Activities, and any
comments about that testimony at that time, respecting another in-
dividual, possibly incriminate you?
Mr. Bernstein. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not Richard Bancroft is a
Communist ?
Mr. Bernstein. The fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Wliat does the fifth amendment say ?
Mr. Bernstein. That a witness can't be compelled to testify against
himself.
Mr. Arens. Do you regard this as a criminal proceeding, in session
today ?
Mr. Bernstein. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. In this testimony before the House committee you
testified at that time you didn't know anything about the Communist
Party ; didn't you ?
Mr. Bernstein. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. Do you know anything about the Communist Party ?
Mr. Bernstein. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. I would like to read you some testimony, Mr. Bernstein,
of yours before the House Committee on Un-American Activities, Mr.
Hoffman posing the question. This is testimony given in the Eightieth
Congress before the Special Subcommittee on Education and Labor
of the House of Representatives.
Mr. Hoffman. You are not interested in whether the American Communist
organization or those who belong to it get their orders from their parent organi-
zation in Russia?
Mr. Bernstein. I am not interested in tlie Communist organization. I am
interested in earning a living for my family and working at my job. That is a
big problem these days.
Did you say that?
Mr. Bernstein. The same answer, the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. What was your comment respecting the Government
Loyalty Board order when you were testifying before the committee ?
Mr. Bernstein. I don't recall.
Mr. Arens. I will read you some more testimony from the same
hearings.
Mr. Hoffman. You think the Loyalty Board order is unfair; do you?
Mr. Bernstein. I think it is disgraceful as a piece of business.
112 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Did you say that?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. How did you get your job with the OPA?
Mr. Bernstein. The fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Was it some Communist who took you into the OPA ?
Mr. Bernstein. The fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did you commit some crime in getting into the OPA?
Mr. Bernstein. The fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Who recommended you for the position with the OPA?
Mr. Bernstein. The fifth amendment, sir.
Mr. Arens. Whom did you give as character references when you
got this job with the OPA?
Mr. Bernstein. Fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Wliat did you do while you were in the United States
Army besides customary routine of an Army man?
Mr. Bernstein. Nothing, besides the customary routine.
Mr. Arens. When you were in a United States Army uniform, were
you in contact with Louise Bransten?
Mr. Bernstein. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever testified under oath that you were not
a Communist?
Mr. Bernstein. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Is Mr. Rein, your lawyer, a Communist ?
Mr. Bernstein. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. How many members are there of the executive commit-
tee of the United Public Workers of America?
Mr. Bernstein. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Arens. How many members are there of the United Public
Workers of America ?
Mr. Bernstein. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Arens. Approximately how many?
Mr. Bernstein. I am in no position to make a statement.
Mr. Arens. Are there more than a thousand ?
Mr. Bernstein. I haven't the slightest idea.
Mr. Arens. Are there more than 500 ?
Mr. Bernstein. I don't know.
Senator Eastland. He said he didn't know. He said he didn't
have the slightest idea.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever had occasion to discuss with Communist
Partv officials the availability of information to be procured from
the United States Government agencies by members of the United
Public Workers?
Mr, Bernstein. No.
Mr. Arens. Do you know of any discussions
Mr. Bernstein. No.
Mr. Arens. Between
Mr. Bernstein. I am sorry.
Mr. Arens. Do you know of any discussions between the Com-
munist Party hierarchy and the officials of the United Public Workers
of America?
Mr. Bernstein. No.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 113
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been to Communist Party headquarters
in New York City ?
Mr. Bernstein. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether Abram Flaxer has ever been
to Communist headquarters in New York City ?
Mr. Bernstein. I decline to answer that on the ground of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know of any members of the executive board
of the United Public Workers of America who are not members of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Bernstein. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment. By the way, I am not sure I know all the members.
You seem to forget that I have been gone for a good 15 months.
Mr. Arens. What was your income when you were with the United
Public Workers of America ?
Mr. Bernstein. $4,600.
Mr. Arens. $4,600 per
Mr. Bernstein. You mean my salary ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Bernstein. $4,600.
Mr. Arens. Did you have an expense account ?
Mr. Bernstein. No.
Mr. Arens. Did Mr. Flaxer have an expense account ?
Mr. Bernstein. I wouldn't know.
Senator Eastland. Did you have any other sources of income?
Mr. Bernstein. What did you say, sir?
Senator Eastland. Did you have any other source of income besides
your salary with the union ?
Mr. Bernstein. I would like to discuss' that with my lawyer.
Senator Eastland. Will you answer the question?
Mr. Bernstein. I would like to discuss it with my lawyer. I don't
know that that is a proper question.
Senator Eastland. Do you decline to answer the question?
Mr. Bernstein. I would appreciate discussing it with my lawyer.
Senator Eastland. No ; we are not going to permit that. Will you
answer the question?
Mr. Bernstein. I don't know what that could have to do with
internal security.
Senator Eastland. Maybe you do not.
Mr. Bernstein. Let me answer this way : The other sources' of in-
come that I have have nothing to do with internal security.
Senator Eastland. Well you answer the question about your other
sources of income ?
Mr. Bernstein. I will be glad to answer the question if my lawyer
thought it was a proper one. I really don't know if it is a proper one,
Mr. Chairman.
Senator Eastland. I want you to answer the question. It is not
up to your lawyer to determine whether a question in this hearing
is proper.
Mr. Bernstein. I think I am entitled to the advice of counsel on
that question.
Senator Eastland. You are not going to get it. You decline to
ans'wer at your peril.
114 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Bernstein. I will decline to answer.
Senator Eastland. All right.
Mr. Arens. These five people who were over at Aberdeen were
members of the United Public Workers of America ; were they not ?
Mr. Bernstein. I must decline to answer any question about those
five people because of my relationship to them.
Mr. Arens. What did you do on behalf of these five people who
were dismissed at Aberdeen?
Mr. Bernstein, I represented them in the proceedings.
Mr. Arens. What proceedings.
Mr. Bernstein. In the various work that had to be done in con-
nection with it. It was a proceeding under Public Law 808 which
entitled them to certain procedural rights.
Mr. Arens. Where did you go and what did you do ?
Mr. Bernstein. I have to decline to answer that.
Mr. Arens. When you were with the United Public Workers of
America, whom did you work with in the United States Government ?
Mr. Bernstein. I worked with practically every person.
Mr. Arens. Do you know any Communists in the Government ?
Mr. Bernstein. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Don't you think that if you do know Communists in the
Government it would be a concern to this Government to know who
they are to protect the internal security of this country ?
Mr. Bernstein. The same answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the session
recess.
Senator Eastland. That will be done.
Mr. Arens. And that the witness be retained under subpena.
Senator Eastland. He will be retained under subpena.
(Whereupon at 2:45 p. m. the committee recessed subject to the
call of the chairman.)
SUBVEESIYE CONTROL OF THE UNITED PUBLIC
WORKEES OF AMERICA
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 10, 1951
United States Senate, Subcommittee
To Investigate the Administration
OF THE Internal Security Act and
Other Internal Security Laws, of
THE Committee on the Judiciary,
Washington^ D. 0.
The subcommittee met at 10 a. m., pursuant to call, in room 457
Senate Office Building, Senator Homer Ferguson presiding.
Present : Senators O 'Conor (chairman of the subcommittee) , Smith,
and Ferguson.
Also present : Richard Arens, staff director ; Donald D. Connors, Jr.,
Mitchel M. Carter, and Edward R. Duffy, investigators.
Senator Ferguson. Will you raise your right hand, please. You
do solemnly swear in the matter now pending before this, a subcom-
mittee of the Judiciary Committee of the United States Senate, that
you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. Guinier. I do.
Senator Ferguson. You may be seated.
TESTIMONY OF EWART GUINIER, SECRETARY-TREASURER, UNITED
PUBLIC WORKERS OF AMERICA; ACCOMPANIED BY DAVID REIN,
ATTORNEY AT LAW, WASHINGTON, D. C.
Mr. Connors. Will you kindly identify yourself by name and occu-
pation, Mr. Guinier ?
Mr. Guinier. Ewart Guinier, secretary-treasurer of the United
Public Workers.
Mr. Connors. That is a labor union called the United Public Work-
ers of America, is that correct ?
Mr. Guinier. That is correct.
Mr. Connors. Where and when were you born, Mr. Guinier ?
Mr. Guinier. Before that, could I make an observation ?
Senator Ferguson. Yes.
Mr. Guinier. I do not think there is a quorum present.
Senator Ferguson. There is a quorum present under the rule. We
have passed a resolution that any one member of the subcommittee
may take the testimony and under the procedure it was passed by the
committee and is their binding order.
Mr. Guinier. I just thought that there should be more than one
person present.
115
116 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Senator Ferguson. I understand your concern with the fact that
only one Senator was here, but I think the officers in charge will tell
you that that is n fact, that such a resolution was passed by the whole
committee. Isn't that correct, Mr. Arens?
Mr. Arens. That is right, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Ferguson. So you may proceed. Was there any particular
reason that you wanted to raise the question of a quorum ?
Mr. GuiNiER. Just that my understanding is that there should be a.
quorum.
Senator Ferguson. Yes. You understand, for instance, the Chris-
toff el case and some others raised the question of a quorum, is that
ri^ht ?
Mr. GuiNiER. I can't identify the case specifically.
Senator Ferguson. Are you a lawyer ?
Mr. GuiNiER. No, I am not.
Senator Ferguson. You may proceed. I appreciate your raising-
the point.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Guinier, you are today represented by counsel.
Mr. Guinier. That is right.
Mr. Arens. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that counsel identify himself..
Senator Ferguson. Will you do so ?
Mr. Rein. My name is David Rein, R-e-i-n, address 711 Fourteentli.
Street NW., Washington, D. C.
Senator Ferguson. You are a District of Columbia bar member ?
Mr. Rein. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Guinier. When and where were you born?
Mr. Guinier. I was born May 17, 1910, in Panama.
Mr. Arens. When did you come to the United States ?
Mr. Guinier. 1925.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly give us a brief resume of your em-
ployment activities since you arrived in the United States?
Mr. Guinier. Do you want summer jobs like when I went to school ?'
Mr. Arens. No, only in very cursory manner, if you please, just the-
hio;h lights of your employment activities.
Mr. Guinier. I worked as elevator operator from — it was during
the depression after I left college, around 1930 or 1931, for 2 years.
Then I worked for the Harlem Research Labs for 2 years as a sales-
man. Then I was unemployed, and I worked for the welfare depart-
ment for 2 years.
Mr. Arens. Was that the New York Civil Service Commission ?
Mr. Guinier. No. Then I worked for the New York Civil Service
Commission. Then I went into the United States Army, and then I
worked for the union.
(Senator Smith entered the hearing room.)
Senator Ferguson. Senator Smith, the witness is Ewart Gladstone
Guinier.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Guinier, are you a citizen of the United States ?
Mr. Guinier. I am.
Mr. Arens. When did you become a citizen of the United States?
That was in 1935, was it not?
Mr. Guinier. Yes, 1935.
Mr. Arens. What caused tlie termination of your employment with
the New York Civil Service Commission ?
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 117
Mr. GuiNiER. They fired me.
Mr. Arens. Why.
Mr. GuiNiER. They had an investigation, and they had hearings,
and I was one of the people called, and they brought charges against
me and fired me.
Mr. Arens. What were the grounds upon which you were fired ?
Mr. Guinier. It was a long series of hearings, about 10 months.
They brought charges and supplementary charges. They fired me
under the supplemental charges.
Mr. Arens. I am asking for the reasons and the grounds.
Mr. Guinier. It was a long letter, about a page and a half.
Mr. Arens. Just give the substance.
Mr. Guinier. The substance was that in an investigation by the
commissioner — I don't remember just which one of the supplemental
charges I was actually fired on, but I think it was that in the hearings
with the commissioner I wasn't cooperative.
Senator Ferguson. You didn't answer questions, in other words?
Mr. Guinier. Or if I answered them, he wasn't satisfied with them.
Senator Ferguson. That is what I mean. That was his conten-
tion, at least, that you wouldn't answer questions.
Mr. Guinier. Yes.
Mr. Arens. There was some fraud alleged and found by the com-
mission to exist in your particular situation in your employment; was
there not?
Mr. Guinier. Absolutely not.
Mr. Arens. Was there a charge of unlawful cohabitation ?
Mr. Guinier. Unlawful cohabitation? I don't think there was a
charge of unlawful cohabitation, no. My recollection was that there
was a charge of cohabitation, but I don't think anything was alleged
about unlawful.
Mr. Arens. Cohabitation with whom?
Mr. Guinier. With a woman.
Mr. Arens. Who.
Mr, Guinier. Plorine Rosenberg. .j..
Mr. Arens. Subsequent to your dismissal by the New York Civil
Service Commission, you became affiliated with the State, County,
and Municipal Workers District Council, did you not?
Mr. Guinier. Subsequent to my dismissal I went into the Army.
Mr. xVrens. Yes, but
Mr. Guinier. At a future time ; yes.
Mr. Arens. When was it that you became affiliated with the State,
County, and Municipal Workers?
Mr. Guinier. You mean as a paid person?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Guinier. When I came out of the Army in 1946.
Mr. Arens. Who employed you?
Mr. Guinier. The district executive board, I guess.
Mr. Arens. In what capacity w^ere you employed?
Mr. Guinier. Secretary-treasurer.
Mr. Arens. xA.nd who was president?
Mr. Guinier. James King.
Mr. Arens. Did you subsequently become president of the State,
County and Municipal Workers?
Mr. Guinier. No.
118 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Arens. You became secretary-treasurer and maintained that
for how long?
Mr. Gtjinier. About a year. Well, the union changed, merged, right
after I became affiliated full time, and I guess it must have been a year
or so that I was secretary-treasurer.
Mr, Arens. I am a little uncertain as to your answer.
Mr, GuiNiER. I said the union merged right after I became a full-
time person,
Mr, Arens. ^Vliat was the merger?
Mr. GuiNiER, The merger with the Federal Workers,
Mr. Arens, Then it became the United Public Workers; is that
correct ?
Mr. GuiNiER. Right.
Mr, Arens, Then w^hat capacity did you have with the United
Public Workers ?
Mr, GuiNiER, Secretary-treasurer of the New York district,
Mr. Arens, How long did you hold that particular position ?
Mr, GuiNiER, For about a year,
Mr. Arens, Then what happened?
Mr, GuiNiER, Then I became the regional director in New York.
Mr, Arens, For the United Public Workers?
Mr, GuiNiER, Right.
Mr, Arens, How long did you hold that position?
Mr. Guinier. About a year ; maj^be a little less.
Mr. Arens. Then what happened?
Mr. Guinier. Then I was elected secretary -treasurer of the union.
Mr. Arens. The national union has just two officers, has it not?
Mr. Guinier. At the present time ; yes,
Mr. Arens, The president is Mr, Abram Flaxer; is that correct?
Mr, Guinier, That is correct.
Mr, Arens, And the secretary-treasurer is yourself; is that correct?
Mr, Guinier. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Did you happen to know a man by the name of Henry
Wenning ?
Mr. Guinier. Yes.
Mr, Arens. What was your affiliation or association with him ?
Mr. Guinier. What do you mean — in the union ?
Mr. Arens. How did you happen to know him ?
Mr. Guinier. He was an officer of the State, County, and Municipal
Union.
Mr. Arens. What office did he hold ?
Mr. Guinier. Secretary-treasurer of the national union.
Mr. Arens. Was he secretary-treasurer all of the time that you
were affiliated with the State, County, Municipal Workers Association
or Union ?
Mr. Guinier. No. He was secretary-treasurer when I first became
a member of the union, and I think he left while I was in the Army.
Mr. Arens. Where did you serve in the United States Army?
Mr, Guinier, In the United States and overseas.
Mr, Arens, What is the total membership of the United Public
Workers at the present time ?
Mr, Guinier. I can give you a rough estimate — in the thirty thou-
sands.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 119
Mr. Arens. In what agencies of the Government of the United
States are members of the United Public Workers employed ?
Mr. GuiNiER. I don't know that I can tell you all of them. I have
represented workers that worked for the Treasury Department as
chauffeurs.
Mr. Arens. How many do you have in the Treasury Department?
Mr. GuiNiER. I don't know the exact number.
Mr. Arens. Would you have as many as a thousand ?
Mr. GuiNiER. Oh, I doubt it.
Mr. Arens. Would you have as many as 500 ?
Mr. Guinier. I doubt it.
Mr. Arens. Would you have as many as 200 ?
Mr. Guinier. Oh. The Treasury Department also includes the
Bureau of Engraving. I don't know. It could be 500, maybe a little
less. It would be around there, including all of the various bureaus
in the Treasury Department.
Mr. Arens. We will start now with your number of about 30,000
and you have indicated approximately
Mr. Guinier. Maybe it is a little more than that. I couldn't give
you an exact figure.
Mr. Arens. You have about 500 in the Treasury Department ? That
would be your estimate, would it not ?
Mr. Guinier. That is a pretty good estimate.
Mr. Arens. In what other agencies of the United States Govern-
ment do you have a membership ?
Mr. Guinier. The Post Office.
Mr. Akens. Ho^^■ many would you say you have in the Post Office
Department ?
Mr. Guinier. Maybe a thousand, maybe a little more.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any in Justice?
Mr. Guinier. Not that I know of.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any in the Veterans' Administration?
Mr. Guinier. Yes.
Mr. Arens. How many do you have in the "Veterans' Adminis-
tration ?
Mr. Guinier. Several hundred, maybe close to a thousand, maybe
400. It is hard to say because they are in hospitals scattered around.
Mr.-ARENS. Do you have any in the Immigration and Naturalization
Service ?
Mr. Guinier. I don't know.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any in the Federal Bureau of Investi-
gation ?
Mr. Guinier. Under-cover agents, you mean?
Senator Ferguson. No, no. Regular members.
Mr. Guinier. I don't know. I can't say.
Senator Ferguson. I will ask you the next question : Have you any
under cover agents in the Federal Bureau of Investigation ?
Mr. Guinier. I don't know. By under cover I mean that the Gov-
ernment sends in to the union, not that we send in to the Federal
Bureau of Investigation.
Senator Ferguson. Have you any members in the Federal Bureau
of Investigation ?
Mr. Guinier. I don't know. The Federal Bureau of Investigation ?
Senator Ferguson. Yes.
92838 — 52 9
120 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. GuiNiER. I don't know.
Senator Ferguson. Wouldn't you know a thing like that as sec-
retary ?
Mr. GuiNiER. No. As secretary of a large organization I wouldn't
know.
Senator Ferguson. You have access to the membership.
Mr. GuiNiER. No.
Senator Ferguson. You do not ?
Mr. GuiNiER. That is, in the individual locals ; no ; as to where they
are working.
Mr. Arens. How many do you have working for the Atomic Energy
Commission ?
Mr. GuiNiER. I don't think we have any there.
Senator Ferguson. How did you know that they were in the
Treasury and in Engraving?
Mr. Guinier. I represented the employees in the Treasury Depart-
ment before the Civil Service Commission — that is, I personally rep-
resented them at hearings — so I know that they are there.
Senator Ferguson. Did you ever hear that there were any from the
FBI or Justice?
Mr. Guinier. No; I never heard.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any in the National Labor Relations
Board?
Mr. Guinier. Never heard of any.
Senator Ferguson. Department of Labor ?
Mr. Guinier. I have heard in the Department of Labor or sub-
divisions of it.
Mr. Arens. How about the RFC ?
Mr. Guinier. I don't know.
Mr. Arens. How many locals do you have ?
Mr. Guinier. I can give you an estimate, and they change — maybe
100, maybe a little more or a little less.
Mr. Arens. They are scattered around over the United States, are
they?
Mr. Guinier. That is right.
Senator Ferguson. What are the dues ?
Mr. Guinier. One dollar and fifty cents, and some locals can charge
more, up to $5.
Mr. Arens. What is the aggregate income of the national ?
Mr. Guinier. I am pretty certain that the last compilation was
one-hundred-and-some-odd thousand dollars for the year.
Senator Ferguson. What is your salary ?
Mr. Guinier. Five thousand five hundred dollars.
Senator Ferguson. Do you have any expense account ?
Mr. Guinier. As incurred, but no fixed expense account.
Senator Ferguson. But anything that you spend
Mr. Guinier. Over and above normal expenses.
Senator Ferguson. Like a trip down here; that would be an
expense ?
Mr. Guinier. If I don't get paid from the committee.
Senator Ferguson. That is what I mean. That is the kind of travel
or anything for the organization.
Mr. Guinier. Yes ; for the fare.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA. 121
Mr. Arens. You are a member of the United Public Workers, are
you?
Mr. GuiNiER. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Tell us all the organizations that you are a member of.
Mr. GuiNiER. That would be pretty hard.
Senator Ferguson. Or have been a member of in the last 5 years.
Mr. GuiNiER. I don't know if I could give you a complete list.
Senator Ferguson. Why? Are you a joiner, and do you just join?
Mr. Guinier. I join a lot of organizations.
Senator Ferguson. M^io pays your dues ?
Mr. Guinier. Like the church — you don't have to pay any dues — or
a fraternal organization.
Senator Ferguson. You do in a fraternal organizations, do you not?
Mr. Guinier. Yes; but you can be nonfinancial. The college fra-
ternity that I belong to, I am nonfinancial in it. That is, I paid dues
for several years.
Senator Ferguson. Name the ones that you are a financial member
and those that you are nonfinancial. You must know what you have
joined.
Mr. Guinier. I don't know that I can give you a list.
Senator Ferguson. Give us some of them.
Mr. Guinier. I belong to the Alpha Phi Alpha fraternity. I don't
know where I am a member or not of the Elks, but I have paid dues
to it. I haven't been initiated. I was out of town at the time, but
they accepted my dues. And there are many others. I belong to the
Knights of Pythias. I belong to the American Labor Party. I don't
know if I have paid dues this year.
Senator Ferguson. That is in New York ?
Mr. Guinier. That is right. But I consider myself a member.
Senator Ferguson. Yes. Are you a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Guinier. That question, Mr. Senator, as I understand it, is one
that opens up an area where an answer to it can be utilized in a manner
that I am protected from allowing by the fifth amendment to the Con-
stitution, which, as I understand it, is designed or was brought about
to protect innocent people, and I gather from the work of this com-
mittee and from general information that this committee is dealing
with questions where an answer to that question could, as I say, be
used in a way that I would in effect be testifying against myself. On
that basis I decline to answer.
Senator Ferguson. Are you a lawyer ?
Mr. Guinier. No.
Senator Ferguson. I assume that you have legal advice.
Mr. Guinier. Oh, yes.
Senator Ferguson. And on that legal advice you now claim the
privilege that it may tend to incriminate you ?
Mr. Guinier. I suppose that is the way it is put.
Senator Ferguson. You appreciate also that this committee is
representing the ITnited States Govermnent and you represent a union.
Mr. Guinier. Our general jurisdiction is Government work; yes,
sir.
122 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Senator Ferguson. You then would appreciate that it would be ma-
terial whether or not the secretary of that organization, which has
members, for instance, in the Army
Mr. GuiNEER. We don't have any members in the Armed Force.
Senator Ferguson. You do not have any ?
Mr. GuiNiER. No.
Senator Ferguson. Even civilian employees in the Armed Forces ?
Mr. Guinier. I don't know.
Senator Ferguson. You do not know. But it could be ?
Mr. Guinier. It could be.
Senator Ferguson. So you see that it is very material as to whether
or not the secretary was a member of the Communist Party ; is that
not true?
Mr. Guinier. Well, I guess that is a matter of interpretation.
Senator Ferguson. Yes. You also appreciate, do you not, that if
you were a member of the Communist Party, you would owe allegiance
to the Communist Party over and above that to your country? Is
that not a fact ?
Mr. Guinier. I can't state
Senator Ferguson. I am not asking whether you are, but as to
whether or not a Communist member would owe allegiance to this
party rather than to his Government here in the United States. Is
that not a fact?
Mr. Guinier. That is what you say.
Senator Ferguson. What do you say ? You are a college graduate.
You have been living in this country. You came here and were
naturalized. You took an oath of allegiance. You were in the Army.
Mr. Guinier. Does that mean that because I am a Roman Catholic,
I owe allegiance
-to^
Senator Ferguson. I did not know that you were a Roman Catholic
and that doesn't concern me.
Mr. Guinier. That I owe allegiance to the Catholic Church more
than to the United States Government? That is what they said about
Al Smith and I didn't believe it.
Senator Ferguson. Do you know anything about communism?
Mr. Guinier. I don't know if I should go into that sort of discus-
sion.
Senator Ferguson. I ask you.
Mr. Guinier. Well, that is the sort of discussion that is sort of gen-
eral fishing to get people to give all sorts of opinion.
Senator Ferguson, I am not fishing, not at all. I am asking you a
direct question: Do you know anything about the Communist Party?
Do you know what it stands for ?
Mr. Guinier. I don't know that I am required to answer that sort
of question.
Senator Ferguson. Do you claim your privilege on the ground it
would tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Guinier. If you wish me to go into that, yes.
Senator Ferguson. No ; I am asking the question, and I will require
an answer unless you do claim the privilege on the grounds stated.
Mr. Guinier. I do.
(Senator O'Conor entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Arens. Who is Benjamin Davis?
Mr. Guinier. Which one?
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 123
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Benjamin Davis?
Mr. GuiNiER. I have read in the papers about Benjamin Davis, the
councilman.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever appear on a radio program with him ?
Mr. GuiNiER. On the American Labor Party.
Mr. Arens. Did you endorse him?
Mr. Guinier. I think I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. I would like to read you a transcript of a broadcast of
your speech and ask you whether or not you have a comment to make
on this.
Ben, some people have asked how the ALP is endorsing you, a member of the
Communist Party. I would like to answer that question, now that you are here
in the studio with me. The ALP has endorsed Ben Davis lor what he has done
and what he stands for. In Ben's 5 years in the city council he has been second
to no one in the fight against discrimination of all kinds, against anti-Semitism,
and against police attacks on Negro people. Ben Davis fought against Jim Crow
metropolitan housing projects, fought for genuine rent control, against an in-
crease in the sales tax in O'Dwyer's efforts to stick the burden of the city on
the small taxpayers and by doing favors for the big taxpayer. Ben fought
against the subway fare increase. Above all, Ben Davis did not forget his own
people, the Negro people. I think that is reason enough to support and endorse
a man.
Did you say that on the radio?
Mr. Guinier. If you have the radio text-
Mr. Arens. Do you have any recollection of saying it ?
Mr. Guinier. I made lots of speeches.
Mr. Arens. Do you have a recollection of saying this, which I just
read ?
Mr. Guinier. I have a recollection of making speeches along those
lines. I wouldn't say that that is the exact words.
Mr. Arens. Is that the substance of what you said in the endorse-
ment of Ben Davis?
Mr. Guinier. It could be.
Mr. Arens. Ben Davis was the Communist Party candidate for the
city council, was he not?
Mr. Guinier. In 1943 he was. I don't recollect if he was in 1949.
I know he ran on the American Labor Party ticket in 1949, but
whether
Mr. Arens. This transcript was from 1949. Do you have a recol-
lection of making those statements in 1949 ?
Mr. Guinier. I said before that if the transcript is what you said,
I don't know whether it is or not. I don't know how accurate it is,
but I made speeches about politics. I ran for office.
Mr. Arens. On what tickets have you run for office ?
Mr. Guinier. One, the American Labor Party.
Mr. Arens. Were you chairman of the Harlem branch of the Amer-
ican Labor Party in 194S ?
Mr. Guinier. 1948. My recollection is that I was chairman of
some committee that supported Henry Wallace. Whether it was called
the Harlem branch of the American Labor Party, I don't think that
that was the name, but it really doesn't make too much difference. I
was chairman of the group supporting Wallace.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been to the Communist Party head-
quarters in New York City ?
Mr. Guinier. I decline to answer that on the same grounds as the
original.
124 ' SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Arens. I should like to read you, if you please, Mr. Guinier,
the testimony by Mr. Henry Wenning before this subcommittee.
Question. Has Guinier been on the fifth floor, to your knowledge, or been in
closed sessions with Communist Party members?
Answer. Yes.
Have 3^ou been on the fifth floor of the Communist Party head-
quarters in New York or in closed party meetings with Mr. Wenning ?
Mr. Guinier. I give the same answer to that, on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Jack Stachel ?
Mr. Guinier. Is he the Jack Stachel that was convicted as one of
the 11 Communists?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Guinier. I decline to go into that on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Gil Green ?
Mr. Guinier. If he is the same group of people, the same answer.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of James W. Ford?
Mr. Guinier. Is he the Communist candidate for Vice President
some time ago?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Guinier. I decline to go into that on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. In 1947 you were a member of the New York State
committee of the Communist Party, were you not?
Mr. Guinier. I decline to go into that on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. As a matter of fact, you were a member of the New
York State committee of the Communist Party in 1948, too, were
you not ?
Mr. Guinier. I decline to go into that on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. By the way, you are still a member of the New York
State committee of the Communist Party, are you not?
Mr. Guinier. I decline to go into that on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Plow many members are there on the executive com-
mittee of the United Public Workers?
Mr. Guinier. There are about 10 or 11, and there are some vacan-
cies.
Mr. Arens. Are there any members of the executive committee who
to your knowledge are not members of the Communist Party?
Mr, Guinier. I don't know what you mean by that.
Mr. Arens. Do you know anyone who to your knowledge is a mem-
ber of the executive committee of the United Public Workers who is
not a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. GtHNiER. I decline to go into that.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest to the chairman
that the witness be ordered to answer that question.
Senator O'Conor. Yes. You understand just what the question
calls for?
Mr. Guinier. I don't think I quite understand it.
Senator O'Conor. It is a little in reverse, but I think it is susceptible
of a very clear answer. The inquiry is addressed to you for any
knowledge you may have as to the fact that the various union mem-
bers are not members of the Communist Party.
Mr. Guinier. I don't think I get the question.
Mr. Arens. Do you know anybody on the executive committee of
the United Public Workers who to your knowledge is not a member
of the Communist Party?
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 125
Mr. Gtjinikr. That seems like a va^iie and a sort of very general
sort of question. I don't know that that is a reasonable question to
ask.
Senator O'Conor. Yes, I think it is, and it only calls for a "yes"
or "no" answer as to whether you, of your own knowledge, are cog-
nizant of facts as to whether or not the various members are outside
of the Communist Party.
Mr. GuiNiER. That is asking a question that I don't know that you
or anybody else could answer.
Senator O'Conor. You are only asked of course t« the best of your
knowledge.
Mr. GuTNiER. Yes ; but I don't think that tricky questions should
be asked witnesses.
Senator O'Conor. I don't think it is a tricky question. You are
not asked as to whether each individual member is a member of the
party. This question is as to whether or not, to the best of your
knowledge, there is any member or there are any members whom
you know not to be members of the Communist Party. It is sus-
ceptible of a "yes" or "no" answer. It is not really a tricky question
in the sense that it would necessarily involve you or any one individual
in any wrongdoing.
Mr. GuiNiER. I can't say that I understand the question.
Mr. Arens. I would like to elaborate on it by using specific names,
if I may, Mr. Chairman.
Senator O'Conor. Proceed.
Mr. Arens. To your knowledge is Abram Flaxer not a member of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. GuiNiER. You use negatives. Would you repeat the question ?
Mr. Arens. To your knowledge is Abram Flaxer not a member of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. GuiNiER. I decline to answer that on two grounds. One, I don't
understand the question. Second, if it is what I think you may be
asking about communism and Abram Flaxer, I decline to answer on
the previous grounds.
Mr. Arens. Jack Bigel is a member of the executive committee of
the United Public Workers, is he not?
Mr. GuiNiER. That is right.
Mr. Arens. To your knowledge is he not a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. GuiNiER. T give the same answer.
Mr. Arens. Alfred Wliite is a member of the executive committee
of the United Public Workers, is he not?
Mr. GuiNiER. That is right.
Mr. Arens. To your knowledge is Mr. White not a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Guinier. I give the same answer.
Mr. Arens. Rose Eussell is a member of the executive committee
of the United Public Workers, is she not ?
Mr. Guinier. That is right.
Mr. Arens. To your knowledge is she not a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Guinier. I give the same answer.
126 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Arens. Jack Strobel is a member of the executive committee
of the United Public Workers, is he not?
Mr. Gtjinier. That is right.
Mr. Arens. To your knowledge is Jack Strobel not a member of
the Communist Party?
Mr. GuiNiER. I give the same answer.
Mr. Arens. Max Brodsky is a member of the executive committee
of the United Public Workers, is he not ?
Mr. GuiNiER. Yes.
Mr. Arens. To your knowledge is he not a member of the Commu-
nist Party?
Mr. GuiNiER. I give the same answer.
Mr. Arens. Max Roffman is a member of the executive committee
of the United Public AVorkers, is he not?
Mr. Gtjinier. Yes.
Mr. Arens. To your knowledge is he not a member of the Commu-
nist Party?
Mr. Guinier. I give the same answer.
Mr, Arens. Goodman Brudney is a member of the executive com-
mittee of the United Public Workers, is he not ?
Mr. Guinier. Yes.
Mr. Arens. To your knowledge is he not a member of the Commu-
nist Party?
Mr. Guinier. I give the same answer.
Mr. Arens. Did you have any affiliation with the American Peace
Mobilization ?
Mr. Guinier. Is that the prewar outfit or the post- World War II
one?
Mr. Arens. February of 1941.
Mr. Guinier. That is a long time ago. My recollection is that I
didn't, but I wouldn't want to be held completely to that because I
don't remember.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall in 1941 making a speech at a mass rally
of the American Peace Mobilization held at the American Academy
of Music in New York City ?
Mr. Guinier. I don't remember, but, as I say, it is quite possible,
it is quite some time ago.
Mr. Arens. Do you have in your custody or control, as secretary-
treasurer of the United Public Workers, a list of the membership of
the United Public Workers?
Mr. Guinier, Not at the present time, no.
Mr. Arens. Could you compile such a list in the course of the next
week?
Mr. Guinier. I don't have the custody of the records at the present
time.
Mr. Arens. Who has the custody of the records ?
Mr. Guinier. Mr. Flaxer.
Mr. Arens. Where are the records?
Mr. Guinier. I guess in the files.
Mr. Arens. Where are the files?
Mr. Guinier, At the office.
Mr. Arens. Where is the office located ?
Mr. Guinier. Five Beekman Street.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 127
Senator O'Conor. In the performance of your duties do you have
occasion to address communications to the entire membership ?
Mr. GuiNiER. No.
Senator O'Conor. Periodically or in any manner?
Mr. GuiNiER. No.
Senator O'Conor. So you do not have on hand a roster of the
membership ?
Mr. GuiNiER. I don't ; no.
Mr. Arens. During the trial of the 11 Communist leaders in New
York City did you have occasion, in company with other persons, to
approach Judge Medina for consultation ?
Mr. Guinier. Do you mean did I meet with him ?
Mr. Arens. Did you undertake to confer with him ?
Mr. Gtjinter. I never met with him. The other question is sort
of vague.
Mr. Arens. What did you do with the objective of undertaking
to see Judge Medina ?
Senator O'Conor. If anything.
Mr. Guinier. I don't recall anything.
Mr. Arens. The Daily Worker, issue of July 15, 1949, page 7, con-
tains a photograph of you, together with a photograph of others under
the caption "Union Leaders Observe Trial of 12." Beneath the photo-
graph it is reported that five leading trade unionists, among them
Ewart Guinier, representing more than 350,000 workers, had left a
message with Judge Medina, who had refused to see them, demanding
that the three jailed defendants be immediately released and the case
against the 12 Communist leaders be quashed. Does that prompt
any recollection to your mind ?
Mr. Guinier. Oh, I went to one session of the trial at Foley Square
and sat in the audience like anybody else.
Mr. Arens. What did you do toward trying to see Judge Medina
or trying to influence him in his activities or participation in the trial ?
Mr. Guinier. I said I don't recollect doing anything except what
I told you.
Senator O'Conor. Have you no recollection of any message or
attempted communication to the judge with reference to the three
who were then being held ?
Mr. Guinier. I don't have any specific recollection.
Senator O'Conor. Or do you recall an attempt to have any com-
munication with the judge directly concerning the conduct of the case
or the custody of the accused ?
Mr. Guinier. I don't have any recollection.
Mr. Arens. About the time of the trial, let us say in October 1949,
did you participate in the issue of a call for a protest rally, protest-
ing the incarceration of the 11 Communist leaders and demand the
freedom of the 12 Communist Party leaders ?
Mr. Guinier. I couldn't answer that as to the detail. I make a lot
of speeches. That was when I was running for office, and I made
13 speeches a day, and signed a lot of things. That went over a
period of 4 or 5 months, so I wouldn't want to say what I did at any
one time duringthat 4- or 5-month period.
Mr. Arens. During the period of 4 or 5 months, in your speeches
did you protest the incarceration of the 12 Communist leaders?
Mr. Guinier. I couldn't be specific about it.
128 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Arens, Be as general, then, as your recollection enables you
to be.
Mr. GuiNiER. I made speeches on civil rights, on things that I
thought were unjust, but as to any very specific thing I can't say. I
made maybe 14 or 15 radio broadcasts, some as long as a half hour.
I was on television programs.
Mr. Arens. Tell us specifically, if you please, on this issue, Mr.
Guinier, what did you do in your overt acts, in your conversations
or in your speeches, with reference to the 12 Communist Party leaders?
Mr. Guinier. You are asking me an impossible question. You are
asking a man who over a period of 4 months made 12 or 13 speeches,
to tell what he said in any of them or who sent out under his name
hundreds of communications.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Guinier, let me read to you an excerpt from the
Daily Worker. You know what publication the Daily Worker is,
do you not ?
Mr. Guinier. I know that there is a Daily Worker, yes.
Mr. Arens. Who publishes it? Is it published by the Republican
Party?
Mr. Guinier. That is a technical question as to who the publisher is.
Mr. Arens. You know as a fact that it is published and is the
official organ oi the Communist Party, isn't that correct?
Mr. Guinier. If you say it is.
Mr. Arens. You know it yourself, do you not?
Mr. Guinier. Well, you are asking me a technical question as to
who. If you look on the masthead it will tell you, all newspapers.
Mr. Arens. Why parry with me? You know it is published by
the Communist Party; isn't that correct?
Mr. Guinier. No. I parry with you because, you see, when you
ask a question that you are trying to entrap a witness or trying to
confuse someone, and if you don't understand I don't think it is fair.
If you have a direct question, you ask someone the question period.
Mr. Arens. Let me ask you this question directly. Who publishes
the Daily Worker?
Mr. Guinier. By that, what do you mean, who publishes it? The
name of the company that publishes it?
Mr. Arens. I think you know what I mean.
Mr. Guinier. No.
Mr. Arens. Do you want to answer the question?
Senator O'Conor. I really do not think it is a tricky question at all,
because it is a matter that may very well be within your knowledge,
generally speaking, from reputation, from general report.
Mr. Guinier. That is not so. Senator.. There are newspapers like
the Afro-American and Negro newspapers that are published by some
company that has no name in relationship to the newspaper. So to
ask someone a technical question like that, I don't think it is a fair
question.
Senator O'Conor. It is not at all a technical question, because either
you do know or you don't know whether the Communist Party, for
example, is publisher of the Daily Worker.
Mr. Guinier. You are asking, you mean, something different than
what the masthead says ? Is that the question ?
Senator O'Conor. The masthead may or may not say it, but the ques-
tion is whether or not you have knowledge that it is.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPV^A 129
Mr. GuiNiER. I think the masthead of all newspapers states who
publishes it.
Senator O'CoNOR. What does the masthead say on this one?
Mr. GuiNiER. I can't tell you that.
Mr. Arens. The Daily Worker for October 5, 1949, on page 2,
column 5, reports that you, Mr. Guinier, were one of several named
trade-unionists who issued a call for a protest rally to be held on Octo-
ber 11, 1949, at Madison Square Park, New York City, the purpose of
which was to demand the freedom of the 12 Communist Party leaders.
Does that prompt any recollection at all to your mind ?
Mr. Guinier. It doesn't.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend the Cleveland convention of the Pro-
gressive Party in 1949 ?
Mr. Guinier. I attended a conference on unemployment, I think, in
Cleveland, under the auspices or in conjunction with the Progressive
Party. I don't know that it was a convention.
Mr. Arens. Did you make a speech there t
Mr. Guinier. I have a recollection of being invited to speak and
that I did speak.
Mr. Arens. Did you in your speech deal with the proposition of the
incarceration of the 11 (^ommunist Party leaders?
Mr. Guinier. I don't recall. It was the same period that I was
running for office. I remember the date.
Mr. Arens. The Daily Worker, Sunday edition, November 6, 1949,
in an article entitled "Guinier Hails for Release of 11,'' reported
that you, the American Labor Party candidate for Manhattan
Borough, hailed the release of the 11 Connnunist leaders on bail as
a tremendous victory for democratic-minded Americans. Is that an
accurate reporting of the facts ?
Mr. Guinier. 1 couldn't tell you. It is the same period you are
speaking about, where I was making a lot of speeches. I can't say
whether that is so or not.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any recollection at all of the activities on
behalf of the 11 Communists who were up for trial ?
Mr. Guinier. What do you mean by that ?
Mr. Arens. Do you have any recollection? I have used two or
three illustrations here now that don't seem to prompt your recollec-
tion.
Mr. Guinier. Well, I think you have to be more specific. I made
a lot of speeches.
Mr. Arens. Did you make any speeches on behalf of the 11 Com-
munists ?
Mr. Guinier. I condemned the Smith Act. I still do.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party prior to
the enactment of the Smith Act in 1940 ?
Mr. Guinier. I decline to answer that on the same grounds that I
gave before.
Mr. Arens. By the way, what do you think about the McCarran
Act, the Internal Security Act ?
Mr. Guinier. I opposed it, I think, before. I don't have any reason
to change my opinion.
Mr. Arens. Is that pretty general among the thinking of your
associates ?
130 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. GuiNiER. I don't know what you mean by that. I think our
union passed a resokition against the Mundt-Nixon bill, which was
the predecessor bill before the McCarran Act. The CIO passed a
resolution against it.
Mr. Arens. That was the executive board or executive committee
of your union, and not the membership, was it not?
Mr. GuiNiER. I don't know. I am pretty certain that our con-
vention did something ab-out the Mundt bill. It wasn't a controversy.
The CIO and the A. F. of L., the NAACP, the American Jewish Con-
gress, John L. Lewis' union, were all against it. I can't say that
it did or didn't, but I was against it, and I am sure I probably made
speeches against it.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been affiliated with the American Council
for a Democratic Greece?
Mr. GuiNiER. American Council for a Democratic Greece? Could
you tell me a little bit more about the organization ?
Mr. Arens. The Daily Worker of February 21, 1949, page 2, column
3, reported that Mr. Guinier, you, as secretary-treasurer of the United
Public Workers of America, would be one of the principal speakers
at a peace in Greece rally to be held at the City Center Casino in
New York City, and according to the article, the rally was held under
the auspices or sponsorship of the American Council for a Democratic
Greece. Do you have any recollection of that at all ?
Mr. Guinier. I don't recall it.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any recollection of appearing at any
meetings under the auspices of the American Council for a Democratic
Greece ?
Mr. Guinier. I say quite frankly I don't remember all the organi-
zations where I appeared, but I have appeared at hundreds of organi-
zations. When I ran for office in 1949 I must have made 3,000 speeches.
Mr. Arens. In 1949 when you ran for office you were running out
of Brooklyn or Manhattan?
Mr. Guinier. Manhattan.
Mr. Arens. Manhattan. Was that the Manhattan section of the
American Labor Party that was behind you there ?
Mr. Guinier. I ran in the physical limits of Manhattan, but I was
nominated, if I recall correctly, by the State executive committee. I
think that is the body that does the official nominating. I am not
sure.
Mr. Arens. Were you connected with the Manhattan section of
the American Labor Party ?
Mr. Guinier. I don't know that they call it the Manhattan section,
but I spoke a lot there. I am part of the American Labor Party.
I am an officer.
Mr. Arens. From Manhattan ?
Mr. Guinier. I am State vice chairman of the American Labor
Party, and I live in Manhattan and I function in Manhattan.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact that the Special Committee
on Un-American Activities has cited the Manhattan section of the
American Labor Party as Communist-controlled. Do you know
that?
Mr. Guinier. I don't know that. That is the House committee,
but it wouldn't bother me if the House Committee on Un-American
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 131
Activities said something: about the American Labor Party. I know
what the American Labor Party is.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Paul Robeson?
Mr. GuiNiER. Oh, yes.
Mr. Arens. Did he support you in your candidacy ?
Mr. GuiNiER. I am sure he did.
Mr. Arens, Were you a member or have you ever been member of
or affiUated with the Council on African Aif airs ?
Mr. GuiNiER. Are they on the Attorney General's listing or organi-
zations ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Guinier. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Arens. What is Paul Robeson's party name ?
Mr. Guinier. AVliat do you mean, his party name ?
Mr. Arens. His Communist Party name is John Thomas, isn't it?
Mr. Guinier. I decline to go into that.
Mr. Arens. Do you know what his party name is ?
Mr. Guinier. I know Paul Robeson as Paul Robeson.
Mr. Arens. Do you know him under any other name ?
Mr. Guinier. I decline to go into that question.
Mr. Arens. Do you know what his party name is ?
Mr. ( tuinier. ] decline to go into that.
Mr. Arens. What is your Communist Party name ?
Mr. Guinier. I decline to go into that.
Mr. Arens. Have you gone under any other name other than the
name of Guinier in your life ?
Mr. Guinier. I decline to go into that sort of question.
Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the Civil Rights Congress ?
Mr, Guinier. I decline to answer that for the same reason.
Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the American Peace Mobilization ?
Mr. Guinier. There have been a lot of those.
Senator O'Conor. You did disting-uish before in regard to whether
or not it antedated the work
Mr, Guinier. Yes.
Senator O'Conor. Have you ever under oath denied that you are a
member of the American Communist Party ^
Mr. Guinier. I don't think I have ever been asked that question.
Senator O'Conou, You were naturalized, were you not?
Mr. Guinier. Yes.
Senator O'Conor. Were you a member of the Communist Party
when you were naturalized ?
Mr. Guinier. I was not asked any such question, and I think that
this sort of question that you are asking now, in view of what is
happening to Harry Bridges, I decline to go into that.
Mr. Arens. What was the year in which you were naturalized?
Mr. Guinier. 1935.
Mr. Arens. Where was that ?
Mr. Guinier. In New York.
Senator O'Conor. Of course it would be a matter of record. Just
for the question of expedition, was there any question asked in respect
to affiliation with
Mr. Guinier. I don't recall just what questions they asked at the
time.
]
I III III ill ill III II
3 9999 05445 4846
'fTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been affiliated with the George Wash-
ington Carver School?
Mr. GuiNiER. George Washington — would you give a little more
information about that?
Mr. Arnes. You were a teacher, were you not, at the George Wash-
ington Carver School back in 1947 ?
Mr. GuiNiER. I taught at the Washington Institute of Business.
Mr. Arens. And the course you taught was labor and politics,
wasn't it ?
Mr. GuiNiER. I don't recall teaching labor and politics. I taught
civil service at the Washington Institute.
Senator O'Conor. Where was that located ?
Mr. GuiNiER. Seventh Avenue and One hundred and twenty-fifth
Street.
Senator O'Conor. New York City ?
Mr. GuiNiER. New York City.
Mr. Arnes. Please express yourself for the record respecting the
extent, if any, to which the Communist Party dictates the policies and
programs of the United Public Workers of America ?
Mr. GuiNiER. That is what the CIO says, but they are liars. The
United Public Workers is an organization with conventions, and exec-
utive board, and they are the ones that decide the policies, the mem-
bership of the organization through their delegates.
Mr. Arnes. How frequently is Roy Hudson or Jack Stachel con-
sulted by Mr. Flaxer or by yourself with respect to the activities and
program and policy of the United Public Workers ?
Mr. GuiNiER. That is the same sort of question you are asking me
about Flaxer, and I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. How about you ? How often do you consult with Roy
Hudson or Jack Stachel?
Mr. GuiNiER. I decline to go into that question.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Harlem Trade
Union Council ?
Mr. Guinier. Oh, yes.
Mr. Arens. You have been ?
Mr. Guinier. Chairman of it.
Mr. Arnes. You are chairman of it ?
Mr. Guinier. That is, I was once.
Mr. Arens. How long were you chairman of it ?
Mr. Guinier. I don't know, a year, maybe a little longer.
Mr. Arens. And over what period of time ?
Mr. Guinier. When the CIO
Mr. Arens. That was in 1949, was it not?
Mr. Guinier. Yes, I think so.
Mr. Arens. The Jefferson School of Social Science — have you ever
been affiliated with that ?
Mr. Guinier. By "affiliated" what do you mean ?
Mr. Arens. Did you ever teach a course there ?
Mr. Guinier. Is this the same Jefferson School that is on the At-
torney General's list?
Mr. Arens. That is right.
Mr. Guinier. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Arens. I should like to ask you whether or not you are now or
liave been affiliated with each of several organizations or with any of
them.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 133
National Negro Congress?
Mr. GuiNiER. Is that on the Attorney General's list?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. GuiNiER. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Negro Labor Victory Committee ?
Mr. GuiNiER. Is that on the Attorney General's list ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. GuiNiER. I decline to answer, the same answer.
Mr. Arens. New York State Council for Legislative Action ?
Mr. GuiNiER. Is that on the Attorney General's — New York State
Council?
Mr. Arens. For Legislative Action.
Mr. GuiNiER. I was a participant in some sort of organization along
that line. I couldn't tell you that that is the exact name.
Mr. Arens. Were you involved in the so-called Peekskill incident,
a rally in which Paul Robeson was to have a concert?
Mr. GuiNiER. There were two of them.
Mr. Arens. How about the one in 1949 ?
Mr. GuiNiER. There were two about a week or so apart. I went to
the second one. I wasn't at the first one.
Mr. Arens. Did you participate in the riot?
Mr. GuiNiER. I didn't participate in anything. As a matter of fact,
someone threw a big rock at the car I was in, and on my way to the
rally I almost got killed. Someone said, "Are you Paul?"
Mr. Arens. How about the Servicemen's Committee for Speedier
Demobilization? Were you a member of that?
Mr. Gi inter. I met witli Lieutenant General Richardson in a com-
mittee that was running rallies in Honolulu on demobilization. I
don't remember the exact name, but I imagine that is what you are
talking about.
Mr. Arens. Now how about the Young Progressive Citizens of
America ?
Mr. GuiNiER. I may have spoken at their meetings.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Morris U. Schappes ?
Mr. Guinier. Is he a teacher or professor at City College ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Guinier. From the time of the Rapp-Coudert committee?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Guinier. Yes ; I do.
Mr. Arens. Were you active in his defense?
Mr. Guinier. I may have been.
Mr. Arens. Were you active back in 1941 in the free Browder
movement ?
Mr. Guinier. My recollection is not, but I don't know what you
mean by was I active, and about the Morris Schappes activity I don't
know what you mean, but my recollection now is that at that time I
would have defended him.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Harry Bridges ?
Mr. Guinii:r. Oh, yes.
Mr. Arens. How long have you known him ?
Mr. Guinier. I don't remembei- the first time I personally met him,
but I have seen him at CIO conventions, going back to either 1940
or 1941.
134 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Arens. Have you taken steps to undertake to obstruct or delay
or suspend his deportation ?
Mr. GuiNiER. Obstruct, delay. I think those words are in the same
category as I said before. I will say that I believe that at various
times I have probably participated in the defense of Bridges, in 1940,
1941, and subsequently.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. GuiNiER. The same answer for the same reasons.
Mr. Arens. I would like respectfully to suggest to the Chairman
that this witness be excused for the present but retained under the
subpena subject to call.
Senator O'Conor. Yes.
(Whereupon, at 11:15 a. m. the hearing was recessed subject to
call.)
Part II
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UNITED PUBLIC
WORKERS OF AMERICA
THURSDAY, APRIL 12, 1951
Subcommittee To Investigate the
Administration of the Internal Security Act
AND Other Internal Security Laws
OF THE Committee on the Judiciary,
New York City, N. Y.
The subcommittee met at 2 p. m., piii*siiant to recess, in room 2804,
United States Court House, New York, N. Y., Hon. Herbert R.
O'Conor, presiding.
Present : Senators O'Conor and Jenner.
Present also : Richard Arens, director of the subcommittee ; Frank
W. Schroeder, staff member; Donald D. Connors, Jr., Mitchel M.
Carter, and Edward R. Duffy, investigators.
Senator O'Conor. The subcommittee will come to order.
Mr. Seeley, will you raise your right hand and be sworn? In the
presence of Almighty God do you solemnly swear that the testimony
you shall give in this case shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Seeley. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN T. SEELEY, GREENWICH, CONN.
Senator O'Conor. Will you state your full name ?
Mr. Seeley. John T. Seeley.
Senator O'Conor. Mr. Seeley, what is your address ?
Mr. Seeley. 25 Ridge Street, Greenwich, Conn.
Senator O'Conor. What is your present position ?
Mr. Seeley. Investigator in the Immigration and Naturalization
Service.
Senator O'Conor. For what period of time have you been an investi-
gator ?
Mr. Seeley. I have been employed by the Department of Justice
since 1934 and in the Immigi'ation Service since January of 1941, I
believe.
Senator O'Conor. Mr. Arens, will you proceed ?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Seeley, you are appearing here today in answer to
a subpena which was served upon you ?
Mr. Seeley. Yes.
« :)« 4c :|c 4: 4: *
135
92838—52 10
136 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Arens. Do you have any of the information sheets of the
United Public Workers of America, the flyers ?
Mr. Seeley. Only since I came back from the Army and I didn't
lealize — Pete Ramsey in my office had been collecting these things
more or less since he got back. We would come in in the morning and
occasionally there would be someone outside the door handing these
flyei"S out. Sometimes I would find one on my desk. Occasionally
I would take one from outside, occasionally from someone inside the
building, some employee who had picked one of the things up. These
are the general run of the type of material that they were handing
out.
Also in that connection I was very surprised — if I am not mistaken
it was in 1944 — this United Public Workers of America, the union,
hired a theater in New York here and put on a concert or a play in
which Paul Robeson was the leading character or leading artist, and
posters of that advertising of that event were displayed all over
the office, as far as that was concerned, urging employees to go to this
concert.
Mr. Arens. Who, to your knowledge, represented the United Pub-
lic Workers of America in placing these flyers or leaflets which we
have here now, which you have just handed to me, in the office of the
Immigration and Naturalization Service?
Mr. Seeley. I am sorry, sir; I don't understand your question.
Mr. Arens. For example, the flyer I have in my hand entitled "Re-
pressive Laws Equal Lower Standard of Living," and is condemning
the Woods subversive control bill, who is it who put this dodger in the
Immigration and Naturalization Service?
Mr. Seeley. I don't know.
Mr. Arens. Where did you procure it?
Mr. Seeley. This particular copy I procured in the office this
morning. As I say, these were collected by Pete Ramsey over a period
of a year or so. That is where I got this particular copy. As I say,
I have on occasion taken similar flyers from people standing right
outside the door of the building and carried them in myself, as far as
that goes.
Mr. Arens. Was anyone who is an employee of the Immigration
and Naturalization Service or was an employee in Immigration and
Naturalization engaged in handing out this literature?
Mr. Seeley. I don't know of my own personal knowledge, but I
believe that there is a fellow by the name of Ira Krause. I believe
he works in the Supply Section. I don't know him even to see, al-
though I would probably recognize him as being an employee if I
saw him.
Mr. Arens. Do you know if there is a loyalty investigation on
Ira Krause?
Mr. Seeley. I had heard that he had been investigated and I have
heard that even since the loyalty investigation had taken place that
a further charge had been made against him by Mr. Avery. Of
course, you will have to imderstand that all of this is rumor, but that
was supposed, this additional charge was made even after the loyalty
investigation.
Senator O'Conor. If I may break in there, this particular paper to
which your attention was directed by Mr. Arens I notice is dated
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 137
the 31st day of August of last year. It was just at the time that the
aiitisubversive legislation was on the floor, you may recall.
Mr. Seeley. Yes.
Senator O'Conor. This has been retained in the office ever since
that time until this time ?
Mr. Seeley. Unofficially.
Senator O'Conor. I understand. Of course it was passed out un-
officially ?
Mr. Seeley. Yes, sir.
Senator O'Conor. But is this the type of material that is used
there? For example, here is a piece of legislation before the Con-
gress and I read one paragraph :
Don't be fooled into thinkinij that the Woorl hill is aimed at jnst iConimnnists.
The purpose of the bill is to silence the vcdce of the American people. It is
aimed at all of us who want a decent and democratic America. The bill violates
the Constitution. All the rights of free speech, expression and thoufrht and
association granted in the bill of rights will be taken away.
Who subscribes to that, to your knowledge ?
Mr. Seeley. No one, to my knowledge. Actually, if it comes to what
1 know of even this union activity, I don't think I can name you one
member of the union. I assume that it is recognized.
Senator O'Conor. It apparently is authorized by local 20, UPW.
Mr. Seeley. That is right,
Mr. Arens. To clear my mind, who in the Immigration and Natu-
ralization Service is affiliated with this group in disseminating these
dodgers or flyers, as they might be referred to ?
Mr. Seeley. Of my own knowledge, sir, I can't tell you. All I can
tell you is that I have been told that Ira Krause is the leader.
There is one of these flyers here which was given to me this morning
by Bill Morse, this one here. This particular flyer was given to him,
he told me, by Ira Krause. The rest of them could be by •
Mr. Arens. Who told you the dodger was given to him ?
Mr. Seeley. Bill Morse in my office. He sits next to me.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that at this point
we place in the record one or two of the typical dodgers or flyers.
Senator O'Conor. If you do not mind without taking the time of
everybody, you could help us later on this.
Mr. Seeley. I don't think that the people would have any objection
if I just gave them to you.
• *•••**
TESTIMONY OF THOMAS J. PHILBIN, INVESTIGATOR,
IMMIGRATION AND NATURALIZATION SERVICE
Senator O'Conor. In the presence of Almighty God do you sol-
emnly swear the testimony you shall give in this hearing will be the
truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Philbin. Yes, sir.
Senator O'Conor. Will you give us your full name ?
Mr. Philbin. Thomas J. Philbin.
Senator O'Conor. What is your position ?
Mr. Philbin. Investigator.
138 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Senator O'Conor. For the Immigration and Naturalization
Service ?
Mr. Philbin. Yes, sir.
Senator O'Conor. How long have you been connected with them?
Mr. Philbin. Since July 19, 1940.
Senator O'Conor. Mr. Arens, will you proceed ?
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in answer to a subpena ?
Mr. Philbin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you received any admonitions or directions from
any person with respect to your testimony here today?
Mr. Philbin. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. You are a free agent to testify ?
Mr. Philbin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. You will testify fully and freely ?
Mr. Philbin. Yes, sir.
* « » * * * 9
Mr. Arens. Who is Carol Weiss King?
Mr. Philbin. She is an attorney who is admitted to practice before
the Immigration Service.
Mr. Arens. What is the nature of her practice ?
Mr. Philbin. She appears both at the time the investigation is con-
ducted, that is, in connection with the statement that might be taken
from a person that has to do with an investigation that is contem-
plated or already under way, and also she appears in expulsion-type
cases.
Mr. Arens. I meant from the standpoint of subversive cases. She
specializes in subversive cases, does she not?
Mr. Philbin. Yes. I see her in the office more in connection with
subversive work than other categories.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not she has access to the
security files of the Immigration and Naturalization Service ?
Mr. Philbin. I don't know. They freely gravitate to the office. I
don't know if it is because of the physical characteristics of the office
but both she and other attorneys seem to run around through desks
and files.
Mr. Arens. Let us confine it at the moment to attorneys affiliated
with Communists. It is your testimony that Carol King has the free
run of the office there ?
Mr. Philbin. She doesn't seem to be hindered ; put it that way.
Senator O'Conor. Mr. Philbin, knowing her as you do and we all
do, by reputation, as to the type of cases she handles, has it occurred
to you that she has enjoyed privileges or liberties that might be a
little odd for a person handling the type of work she does ?
? r. Philbin. Yes.
xvlr. Arens. How about Ruth Leider ? Does she specialize in Com-
munist cases, too ?
Mr. Philbin. Understand, sir, I am not working in the Communist
investigation cases.
Mr. Arens. I understand, but you know Ruth Leider?
Mr. Philbin. The sections are so laid out that if a person would
be seen in a certain section you would know which kind of work she
would be interested in, and both she, that is Carol King, and Ruth
Leider are more often seen in the Communist part of the investigar
tion section than in the immigration cases.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 139
Mr. Arens. How about Isadore Englander?
Mr. Philbin. I see him quite a bit around there.
Mr. Arens. Does he also have a free run there?
Mr. Philbin. Yes.
Senator O'Conor. Of course I have no doubt those files include Gov-
ernment evidence and data as well as that which might of course bear
upon or would be favorable to the individual immigrant?
Mr. Philbin. Well, it would contain all the records relating to the
subject.
Mr. Arens. You are referring to the files of the Immigration and
Naturalization Service which are made available to Carol King, Ruth
Leider, and Isadore Englander ; is that right ?
Mr. Philbin. I didn't say they were made available to them.
Mr. Arens. Wliat do you mean?
Mr. Philbin. I said that they seemed to have easy access to the
offices where the Communist investigations are being conducted.
Senator O'Conor. Are we to understand by that that they really
do have an opportunity to delve into them without being under su-
pervision ?
Mr. Philbin. Well, in view of their easy access to the place there
wouldn't be any prohibitive — there would be nothing to prohibit them
from glancing at the records.
Senator O'Conor. You are an experienced investigator and intel-
ligent man. It would certainly strike you as odd, I am sure, that a
person who is devoting her efforts to that type of work would at the
same time have a chance to get at the files that might contain infor-
mation of a highly confidential nature?
Mr. Philbin. Yes, sir.
m m m * « « •
Mr. Arens. I have just a few little items. Wlio in the Immigra-
tion and Naturalization Service, to your knowledge, is a member of
the United Public Workers of America?
Mr. Philbin. A party by the name of Ira Krauso, I think a person
by the name of Aaronson, he and his wife are quite active in that.
Mr. Arens. What does the United Public Workers of America
do insofar as there is any overt evident action in and around the
Immigration Service ?
Mr. Philbin. They distribute handbills outside the building. They
join in parades when they are involved, where there is a case involving
a deportable alien up for hearing during that day they will join
during the lunch hour with a group of paraders with placards.
Mr. Arens. You mean there are men employed in the Immigration
and Naturalization Service that are members of an organization which
picket against the deportation of aliens? ^^■-
Mr. Philbin. Yes. • '"^
Senator O'Conor. In other words, they are actually people on the
payroll of the Federal Government who are really joining in protest-
ing against the official action of the Government?
Mr. Philbin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. May I have you glance at those handbills? I will say
now for the purpose of the record they have been provided in the
course of the last hour or so by another witness. I ask you if those are
140 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
typical of the handbills distributed by this United Public Workers
organization ?
Mr. Philbin. Yes, sir.
Senator O'Conor. Mr. Philbin, that is one of the most reprehensible
things I have ever heard of in the Government service. There certainly
could be nothing more outrageous, it seems to me, than an organization
of Federal workers who in combination would be seeking to nullify
the provisions of a law which is being enforced by other Government
agents. Is that not a fair statement?
Mr. Philbin. Yes. I would like to add that since the McCarran
Act has gone into effect they have ceased picketing in front of the
building because it does house the court.
Mr. Arens. The McCarran Act has a provision that has to do with
certain types of picketing of Federal courts i
Mr. Philbin. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF EDWARD L. MOREL, JR., INVESTIGATOR, IMMIGRA-
TION AND NATURALIZATION SERVICE, NEW YORK, N. Y.
Senator O'Conor. In the presence of Almighty God do you swear
the testimony you shall give will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God i
Mr. Morel. I do.
Senator O'Conor. Will you give us your full name ?
Mr. Morel. Edward L. Morel, Jr.
Senator O'Conor. Mr. Morel, what is your position ?
Mr. Morel. I am an investigator for the Immigration and Naturali-
zation Service.
Senator O'Conor. For how long have you been with the Service?
Mr. Morel. Since April 28, 1941.
Senator O'Conor. What did you do before that?
Mr. Morel. I worked in a shipyard.
Senator O'Conor. Are you married ?
Mr. Morel. Yes, sir.
Senator O'Conor. Do you have a family ?
Mr. Morel. No, sir.
Senator O'Conor. Have you lived here all your life?
Mr. Morel. Yes, sir ; in New York City.
Senator O'Conor. You were born and raised in this country?
Mr. Morel. Yes.
Senator O'Conor. Mr. Arens, will you proceed ?
Mr. Arens. You are appearing under subpena here today, Mr.
Morel ?
Mr. Morel. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you been admonished, directed, or advised as to
your testimony today ?
Mr. Morel. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. By any person ?
Mr. Morel. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. You are a free agent to testify, and you will testify
fully and freely before this subcommittee?
Mr. Morel. Yes, sir.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 141
Mr. Arens. Is the United Public Workers of America still active
in the New York office of the Immigration and Naturalization
Service ?
Mr. Morel. Yes, sir. Ira Krause is the shop steward and he occu-
pies the position of Assistant Chief of the Service and Supply Section
which takes care of supplying the different units with stationery and
things such as that.
Mr. Arens. What does he have to do with the United Public Work-
ers of America ?
Mr. Morel. He is the shop steward.
« * 4c « • • «
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not Ira Krause has been per-
mitted to review confidential files in the office?
Mr. MoRKL. I do not know this from first-hand knowledge because
1 wasn't present when this thing blew up, when this thing arose, but
it seems that Larry Parr, who is an investigator in Mr. Avery's sec-
tion, and they handle all these subversive files, was brought up on the
carpet. He was put under oath and a question-and-answer statement
as to why he showed the confidential files concerning a suspect Com-
munist to Ira Krause. Now that is all I know about that. But I feel
quite certain that if you would look into it my statement would be
borne out.
TESTIMONY OF LOUIS WIENCKOWSKI, INVESTIGATOR,
IMMIGRATION AND NATURALIZATION SERVICE
Senator O'Conor. In the presence of Almighty God do you swear
that the testimony you shall give will be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but tlie truth ; so help you God 'i
Mr. WiENCKowsKi. I do.
Senator O'Conor. What is your full name ?
Mr. WiENGKOwsKT. Louis Wienckowski.
Senator O'Conor. What is your position ?
Mr. Wienckowski. Investigator.
Senator O'Conor, P'or Immigration and Naturalization Service?
Mr. Wienckowski. Yes, sir.
Senator O'Conor. How long have you been with them?
Mr. Wienckowski. Since May 2, 1941.
Senator O'Conor. Now, Mr. Arens, will you proceed ?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Wienckowski, you are appearing here under sub-
pena ?
Mr. Wienckowski. Yes, indeed.
Mr. Arens. Have you been admonished, advised, or instructed by
any pei-son respecting your testimony here today?
Mr. Wienckowski. I haven't.
Mr. Arens. You are a completely free agent and will testify fully
and freely before this subcommittee ?
Mr. Wienckowski. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. And you will answer any questions put to you fully and
freely, without restraint?
Mr. Wienckowski. Yes.
142 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA ">
Mr. Arens. How about Ira Kraiise?
Mr. WiENCKOwsKi. Ira Krause, I believe, is employed as a clerk,
I thiiik it is in Supplies. He seems to be very active in the United
Public Workers organization, because he does distribute some of these
throw-aways, and it seems to me that the United Public Workers are
following the Communist line, because they spout the Daily Worker
chatter like "Free Willie McGee" and "Discrimination Against the
Trenton Six," and things of that nature. It is quite obvious that the
particular organization is controlled by the Communists because if
you take a certain line of the Daily Worker and you take the throw-
away for that same period of time, it seems to jibe.
* * * * * « •
SUBVEESIYE CONTBOL OF THE UNITED PUBLIC
WOEKERS OF AMEEICA
FRIDAY, APRIL 13, 1951
Subcommittee To Investigate the
Administration of the Internal Security
AcTi AND Other Internal Security Laws
OF the Committee on the Judiciary,
New York City, N. Y.
The subcommittee met at 10 a. m., pursuant to recess, in room 2804,
United States courthouse, New York, N. Y., Hon. Herbert R. O'Conor
presiding.
Present : Senator O'Conor.
Present also : Richard Arens, director of the subcommittee ; Frank
W. Schroeder, professional staff member; Donald D. Connors, Jr.,
Mitchel M. Carter, and Edward R. Duffy, investigators.
STATEMENT OF C. HAROLD PEJSfNINGTON, CHIEF, INVESTIGATIONS
SECTION, IMMIGRATION AND NATURALIZATION SERVICE—
Resumed
Senator O'Conor. The hearing will come to order.
Mr. Pennington, you have been sworn and it is unnecessary to swear
you again ; we will just consider the oath outstanding.
Just for the record, Mr. Pennington, will you give your full name
again, please ?
Mr. Pennington. C. Harold Pennington.
Senator O'Conor. Your position?
Mr. Pennington. Chief of Investigations, Immigration and Nat-
uralization Service, New York.
Senator O'Conor. For what period of time, Mr. Pennington, have
you been connected with the Service ?
Mr. Pennington. Connected with the Service since October 1930.
Senator O'Conor. How long have you occupied your present post?
Mr. Pennington. I came to New York on detail in October 1948,
and was officially transferred in January 1949.
« * * * * * «
Mr. Arens. Mr. Pennington, do you have information respecting
the dissemination of leaflets or dodgers by employees of the Immigra-
tion and Naturalization Service, which dodgers are prepared for dis-
tribution by the United Public Workers of America ?
Mr. Pennington. I have seen employees handing them out at
various times when I have come to work in the morning.
Mr. Arens. Who' are those employees ?
143
144 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Pennington. The only one I know by name is Mr. Krause.
He is the assistant chief of the Supply Section. I don't know what
his first name is — Ira, I believe.
Mr. Arens. Is there anybody else in the Immigration and Naturali-
zation Service that you know of hands these dodgers out ?
Mr. Pennington. I know their faces. I have seen them around the
building, but I don't actually know them.
Mr. Aeens. How many people have you seen ?
Mr. Pennington. Over a period of 12 or 15 months I have seen
12 or 15 different ones.
Mr. Arens. Who are employees of Immigration and Naturaliza-
tion Service?
Mr. Pennington. That is right.
Mr. Aeens. Handing out dodgers?
Mr. Pennington. That is right.
Mr. Arens, I show you here one or two dodgers. One is entitled
"The Mundt Bill Is Destroying the Bill of Rights." Is that typical
of the dodgers that are being handed out ?
Mr. Pennington. I never saw this particular one, but I have seen
some that were along the same lines.
Mr. Arens. On the basis of your experience as chief of this section,
would you say that the dodgers pretty well follow the Communist
line?
Mr. Pennington. In a lot of cases they do.
There is one thing — I have missed a lot of those dodgers because
they start handing them out at 8 : 30 in the morning and I am usually
in the building before that time. However, Mr. Avery, the man in
charge of these subversive investigations, has made it a point to
accumulate those, I believe.
Mr. Arens. Could you procure a list of those employees and trans-
mit that to the subcommittee ?
Mr. Pennington. I can get a list that will cover most of them, at
least.
Mr. Arens. Will you do it?
Mr. Pennington. I will, yes, sir.^
Mr. Arens. Do you have any information respecting the picketing
of the New York Immigration Office by the United Public Workers
Organization ?
Mr. Pennington. We are picketed on an average of once every 2
weeks, I believe. Whether or not that organization has actually had
a picket line there, I don't remember.
Mr. Arens. Who is doing the picketing?
Mr. Pennington. We had one last week. That was the Ameri-
can Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Arens. That is the same organization, is it not, that has been
cited repeatedly as a Communist organization ?
Mr. Pennington. Yes. There have been various other groups that
have picketed at times, but I don't remember the names. There again
Mr. Avery would know. I can get that and send it to you, if you want.
Mr. Arens. I would appreciate it if you would kindly do that.
Mr. Pennington. All right.
1 See p. 145.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPVV^A 145
( Let ter of information follows :)
Department of Justice,
Immigration and Naturalization Service,
New York, N. Y., April 13, 1951.
Mr. KiCHARD Arens,
Counsel for Senate Subcommittee on Internal Security,
Neiv York, N. Y.
Dear Sir : The information you requested from me and which I agreed to
furnish as soon as available, listing the names of the organizations that have
picketed the Immigration and Naturalization Service office at 70 Columbus
Avenue, New York City, are as follows : American Committee for the Protection
of Foreign Born, Civil Rights Congress, the various language branches of the
International Workers Order, and the Fur Workers Union.
You also requested the names of the personnel in the Immigration and Natu-
ralization Service who have at various times handed out pamphlets at the doors
of our office. The names I have been able to obtain are as follows : Henry H.
Friedland, Mrs. Sadie K. Friedland, Miss Eleanor Klein, Isidore Krauss, Miss
Merle Friedman, and Miss Henrietta Kronich.
Very truly yours,
C. H. Pennington,
Chief, Investigation Section.
***** 4: *
TESTIMONY OF EUGENE M. GULP, INVESTIGATOR, IMMIGRATION
AND NATURALIZATION SERVICE
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly state your full name?
Mr. Gulp. Eugene M. Gulp.
Mr. Arens. You have been sworn previously this morning, Mr.
Gulp?
Mr. Gulp. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly identify yourself by occupation ?
Mr. Gulp. I am an investigator in the Immigration and Naturaliza-
tion Service.
Mr. Arens. How long have you been so employed ?
Mr. Gulp. I have been with the Immigration Service since July of
1940.
Mr. Arens. How long have you been employed as an investigator?
Mr. Gulp. Since January of 1948.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing here in answer to a subpena which
was served upon you ?
Mr. Gulp. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Have you been admonished or instructed in any manner
by any persons respecting your testimony before this committee?
Mr. Gulp. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Then you feel you are a free agent to express yourself
fully and freely without restraint ?
Mr. Gulp. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Will you do so?
Mr. Gulp. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. As an investigator in the Immigration and Naturaliza-
tion Service, Mr. Gulp, have you had occasion to observe the presence
in the district office in New York of Garol Weiss King? ^
Mr. Gulp. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Would you express yourself in respect to the manner in
which Garol King is treated in the New York district office on a com-
parative basis with other attorneys?
' Now deceased. -
146 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. CuLP. First of all, Carol King, when she has come into the office
at 70 Columbus Avenue on the occasions I have observed, has had a
habit of simply barging in to see whatever individual she wanted to
see, whereas, the attorney who follows the usual protocol waits for an
introduction, or asks for an introduction, to whatever official they
want to see. I have only seen her on perhaps a dozen occasions in our
office up here, about half of them when I was in the seamen and
smuggling section, and the other half since I have been in the anti-
subversive section.
When I was in the seamen and smuggling section she made her way
directly to the supervisor's office, on every occasion I saw her, and
dealt directly with him, regardless of what investigator might be
handling the case she was interested in.
Mr. Arens. What do you know about the employees of the Immi-
gration and Naturalization Service who are members of the United
Public Workers of America?
Mr. CuLP. The only thing I know about them is there are several
whom T can't name, because I don't know that much about them, but
there are several who maybe once or twice or three times a week pass
out releases of that organization, mimeographed releases, at the door
of our building at 70 Columbus Avenue. I have seen those people as
employees, in the building at other times, so I do know they are con-
nected with the Service.
Mr. Arens. How many would you say there are?
Mr. CuTiP. How many of those people ?
Mr. Arens. Yes; that you have seen and could identify?
Mr. CuLP. I could identify probably five of them by sight.
Mr. Arens. What is the nature of these pamphlets or leaflets or
dodgers which are passed out by these employees in the Immigration
Service ?
Mr. CuLP. Well, they have two or three things that they seem to be
interested in. One of them, of course, is pay raises for the employees.
We get about one release a week on those, I believe.
Then they pass out about the same number of releases having to
do with lack of equal treatment for Negro Federal employees as com-
pared to white.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any recollection of any dodgers they have
passed out attacking the Internal Security Act or anti-Communist
legislation?
Mr. CtJLP. No.
Mr. Arens. As an investigator in the antisubversive section, do you
have any appraisal to make with respect to the extent to which these
dodgers or leaflets approximate the Communist Party line?
Mr, CuLP. Well, I think it can be said that they do approximate the
Communist Party line in that their releases concerning Negro Federal
employees are more inflammatory than they are explanatory.
I think their last release came out about IVIonday or Tuesday of this
week. They were announcing a discussion group on race relations
among Government employees. That, to my mind, is a matter for
administration within the Service.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any of the releases or dodgers with you ?
Mr. Ctjlp. No ; I do not.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 147
TESTIMONY OF GERHARD ILGNER, INVESTIGATOR, IMMIGRATION
AND NATURALIZATION SERVICE
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly identify yourself by name and occu-
pation ?
Mr. Ilgner. My name is Gerhard Ilgner, investigator, United States
Immigration and Naturalization Service.
Mr. Arens. You were sworn this morning?
Mr. IixjNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Ilgner, you are appearing in response to a subpena,
which was served upon you ?
Mr. Ilgner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you been under any direction or admonition with
respect to testimony from any persons?
Mr. Ilgner. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. You feel yourself a free agent to talk without restraint
before this committee?
Mr. Ilgner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. How long have you been employed in the Immigration
and Naturalization Service and in what capacity?
Mr. Ilgner. I joined the Service in June of 1936 as a border patrol
inspector. In April 1941, 1 was transferred to the New York district
as an immigrant inspector. I believe about 4 years ago I was made an
investigator.
Mr. Arens. What is the nature of the work that you perform ? In
what unit of the Investigation Section do you function ?
Mr. Ilgner. I believe it is called the Legality Status. I interview
practically all of the people that come to the Investigations Section
for information and determination of status. We often send out a
certain number of letters, every day, persons residing in the United
States illegally, that we feel we can close the case quickly without
outside investigation.
Mr. Arens. Is there anything else?
Mr. Ilgner. Well, I thinlv we should put a stop to handing out these
bulletins at the office the way they do, by this organization.
Mr. Arens. What bulletins are you talking about?
Mr. Ilgner. I have one that was handed out this morning. I think
it is bad for a Government office.
Mr. Arens. What organization handed this bulletin out, to your
knowledge ?
Mr. Ilgner. I don't know what it is, the officers, worker, profes-
sional
Mr. Arens. That is the United P,ublic Workers of America?
Mr. Ilgner. Yes ; that is it.
Mr. Arens. Was this bulletin handed to you today ?
Mr. Ilgner. No ; I came to work too early. It was handed to one
of the men in the office. I asked if I could take it along with me down
here.
Mr. Arens. Are some of the employees of the Immigration and
Naturalization Service handing out these bulletins?
Mr. Ilgner. That bulletin was handed out, he told me, by Mr.
Krause.
Mr. Arens. Ira Krause,
148 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Ilgner. I don't know his first name. I imagine it is Ira Kruuse.
Mr. Abens. Just this morning.
Mr. Ilgner. Just this morning.
Mr. AnENS. Arc bulletins of this character frequently handed out?
Mr. Ilgner. I would say about every 2 weeks.
Mr. Arens. I see that this particular bulletin to which you are al-
luding, this one-page dodger, refers to the case of Willie McGee, con-
demning the trial of Willie McGee. Is that true ?
Mr. Ilgner. I am sorry. I don't know this McGee, but I don't like
the language they use. In my opinion, they are simply trying to
create a race hatred, as far as the whites and the colored people are
concerned. In the last 6 years of that bulletin, they are trying to
create friction between the two races.
Mr. Arens. Have you seen a number of these ?
Mr. Ilgner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. On the basis of your experience as an investigator in
the Antisubversive Section, would you say that the line pronounced
there in the bulletins which are handed out approximates the Com-
munist line?
Mr. Ilgner. I would.
Mr. Arens. How many employees in the Service do you know have
been handing out these bulletins ?
Mr. Ilgner. To my knowledge, three.
Mr. Arens. Do you know who they are?
Mr. Ilgner. No ; I don't. I know Mr. Krause, but the other two I
don't know. I don't know their names.
SUBYEKSIVE CONTROL OF THE UNITED PUBLIC
WOEKERS OF AMERICA
THURSDAY, MAY 11, 1951
United States Senate,
subcommiti-ee to investigate the administration
OF THE Internal Security Act and Other Internal.
Security Laws, of the Commiti'ee on the Judiciary,
Was king to7i, D. C.
The subcommittee met at 10 a. m., pursuant to notice, in room 424,
Senate Office Building, Hon. Homer Ferguson presiding.
Present : Senator Ferguson.
Present also : Richard Arens, director of the subcommittee ; Frank
W. Schroeder, professional staff member; Donald D. Connors, Jr.,
Mitchel M. Carter, and Edward R. Duffy, investigators.
Senator Ferguson. The subcommittee will come to order.
*******
Now, would you all rise, please, and raise your right hand? You
do each of you solemnly swear in the matter now pending before this
committee that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
***** 9): 4c
Senator Ferguson. All of you have answered in the affirmative.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, the first witness will be Isidore Krauss
or Ira Krause.
Senator Ferguson. It is the desire of the committee that the wit-
nesses who have all been sworn now retire, and as you come in, you
can testify before the committee. I have asked them to get you com-
fortable chairs in the outer room, so that you might wait.
TESTIMONY OF ISIDORE KRAUSS (IRA KRAUSE), ASSISTANT CHIEF,
SERVICES AND SUPPLIES SECTION, NEW YORK DISTRICT OFFICE,
UNITED STATES IMMIGRATION AND NATURALIZATION SERVICE
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly identify yourself by name and occu-
pation.
Mr. Krause. Isidore Krauss, also known as Ira Krause. I am
assistant chief of services and supply section in the New York district
office of the Immigration and Naturalization Service.
Mr. Arens. You were born in Brooklyn in January 1920 ; is that
right ?
Mr. Krause. That is right.
Mr. Arens. You entered the service of the Immigration and Nat-
uralization Service in 1941?
149
150 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UFWA
Mr. Krause. That is right, sir.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Krause, are you a member of local 20 of the United
Public Workers?
Mr, Kjiause, I am, sir.
Mr, Arens. Wlien did you join that organization?
Mr. Krause, 1946 or 1947, I don't recall the precise day.
Mr. Arens, Have you been in that organization continuously since
that time?
Mr, Krause, I have,
Mr, Arens, Do you hold an oiRce in that organization ?
Mr. Kjiause. No; I don't.
Mr. Arens. Have you at any time held an office in that organi-
zation ?
Mr. Krause, I have been a committee chairman at one time,
Mr, Arens, Chairman of what committee?
Mr, Krause, Recreation committee.
Mr. Arens, When was that ?
Mr, Krause, That was within a year after I first joined. That
would bring it around 1948, I guess.
Mr. Arens, Have you had occasion in the course of your member-
ship in the United Public Workers, Local 20, to pass out on or near
the premises of the district office of the Immigration and Naturaliza-
tion Service in New York City leaflets of that organization?
Mr, Krause. I have, sir,
Mr. Arens. And on what occasions have you passed out those leaf-
lets?
Mr, Krause, I can't recall specific dates. It has been an intermit-
tent procedure over the past year or two, I guess. I don't recall
precisely when it started,
Mr, Arens. When was the last time you passed out leaflets of this
organization ?
Mr, Ivrause. Perhaps 2 weeks ago, 3 weeks ago. I don't recall
exactly.
Senator Ferguson. Will you identify the organization again?
Mr. Krause, Local 20 of the United Public Workers of America,
known as the Federal Workers Union,
Senator Ferguson. You were representing the union when you
were passing out the literature ?
Mr. Krause, As a member of that organization.
Senator Ferguson, Wlio gave you the literature at the headquar-
ters to pass out ?
Mr. Krause. At the headquarters of the union office ?
Senator Ferguson. Some responsible officer ?
Mr. Krause. It wasn't a particular person. That depended on the
subject matter of the leaflet, it would have been prepared by a com-
mittee of the local, and at a membership meeting the members present
would be advised of the fact that a leaflet had been prepared, and
asked to distribute it.
Senator Ferguson. So there was no doubt in your mind that it was
a leaflet of the organization to which you belonged ?
Mr. Krause, That is right.
Senator Ferguson, Was putting it out. Were you paid for putting
it out?
Mr. Krause, No, sir.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 151
Senator Ferguson. You did it just as a member?
Mr. Kkause. That is right, sir.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Krause, I now hand you seven leaflets, which have
been previously identified by other witnesses before this Internal
Security Subcommittee, and I ask you if you can identify any of those
leaflets as leaflets which you have passed out on the premises or near
the premises of the district office of the Immigration and Naturaliza-
tion Service in New York City.
Mr. Krause. I have neither seen nor passed this out.
Senator Ferguson. That is exhibit 1.
(The document headlined "Frame-up" was marked "Exhibit 1" and
filed for the information of the committee.)
Mr. Krause. I have never seen it. It does not bear the signature of
the local at all.
Mr. Arens. Do I understand you to deny that you have ever seen
or passed out exhibit 1, which is a leaflet entitled "Frame-up" ?
Mr. Krause. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that this leaflet be marked
"Exhibit No. 2."
(The leaflet headlined "This employee is loyal" was marked "Exhibit
2" and filed for the information of the committee.)
Mr. Arens. Now, will you kindly express yourself with reference to
the next leaflet, exhibit No. 2?
Mr. Krause. I don't recall having handed it out. I have seen this
leaflet, though. It is one that was prepared by my local union. I
couldn't unequivocally say I did not hand it out, but I don't recall
having handed it out.
Mr. Arens. Did you know of the existence of this particular leaflet,
exhibit 2, and that it was sponsored by the United Public Workers,
Local 20, in New York City?
Mr. Krause. That is right. I remember seeing it.
Mr. Arens. Now, would you direct your attention to exhibit 3,
which will be the next leaflet in your hands.
(Leaflet headlined "Pre-May Day celebration" was marked "Ex-
hibit 3" and filed for the information of the committee.)
Mr. Krause. Exhibit 3 w^as not in any way associated with the local
union. I have never seen it. I most certainly have never disv
tributecl it.
(Leaflet headlined "Save America" was marked "Exhibit 4" and
filed for the information of the committee.)
Mr. Krause. The same for exhibit 4.
Senator Ferguson. You have never seen it?
Mr. Krause. I have never seen it ; and it doesn't bear the signature
of the local union.
Senator Ferguson. That would not necessarily mean you did not
see it ?
Mr. Krause. That wouldn't mean I didn't see it. I merely point it
out because they are in here with some that were issued by my local
union.
Mr. Arens. May I interpose this question, before we get too far
away from exihibit 1.
Can you testify as to whether or not exhibit 1 was a leaflet which
was distributed by your local to any of the United Public Workers ?
Mr. Krause. It was not.
92838—52 11
152 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Arens. Now, will you proceed with the next exhibit, which we
will mark "Exhibit 5"?
(Leaflet headlined "Do you know the meaning of the loyalty order?"
was marked "Exhibit 6" and filed for the information of the com-
mittee. )
Mr. Krause. I don't recall having seen this one, although it appears
to liave been issued by local 20.
Mr. Arens. There have been a great number of leaflets which have
been issued by local 20 of the United Public Workers and distributed
in and around the Immigration and Naturalization Service head-
quarters in New York City, 70 Columbus Avenue ; is that not correct ?
Mr. Krause. There have been a number. I don't know whether it
would be considered a great number.
Mr. Arens. Wliat would be your estimate as to the number of leaf-
lets?
Mr. Krause. I should say approximately one every 2 or 3 weeks.
Mr. Arens. For how long?
Mr. Krause. Since we first established that procedure. Trying to
fix dates now is rather difficult, because it wasn't something that there
was any particular record kept of. I would say it is somewhere be-
tween 1 and 2 years.
Mr. Arens. You estimate that your organization distributed one or
two a week in and around the district headquarters of the Immigra-
tion and Naturalization Service?
Mr. Krause. Not in and around. The estimate is based on around,
only, not inside.
Mr. Arens. On the sidewalk in front of the building?
Mr. Krause. That is right. Not inside the building.
Mr. Arens. They were distributed to the employees of the Immigra^
tion and Naturalization Service?
Mr. Krause. Entering the building.
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Krause. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Were any of them tacked on the bulletin board inside
the building?
Mr. Kjiause. Not to my knowledge, within that period.
Senator Ferguson. What were you trying to do with the posters or
bulletins or leaflets? What was the purpose?
Mr. Krause. The only purpose that we had was to try, for one
thing, to convince people who worked for the Immigration Service to
join in the union organization with us, in order to improve our organi-
zational strength with regard to obtaining pay increases and improved
retirement laws, improved annual and sick leave benefits, and things
that are of general welfare to the employees.
Senator Ferguson. The reason I ask you that is that exhibit 5, and
the other one which you identified as coming from your organization,
exhibit 2, do not relate to the amount of pay or hours or anything in
connection with your work.
Mr, Krause, As I say, sir; I don't recall having distributed those
particular leaflets.
Senator Ferguson, No, but they were gotten out by the union and
you say distributed at the place.
Mr. Krause. I don't know whether they were distributed at my
place or not.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 153
Senator Ferguson. How many times did you hand out bulletins or
leaflets?
Mr. Krause. I should say approximately the number of times they
were handed out, with an exception now and then.
Senator Ferguson. That would be once or twice a week?
Mr. Krause. No, once every 2 or 3 weeks, not once or twice a week.
Senator Ferguson. Then you say the majority of those times you
helped to pass them out ?
Mr. Krause. The majority, yes.
Senator Ferguson. Would you read them before you passed them
out?
Mr. Krause. Most assuredly.
Senator Ferguson. Had they anything to do with wages, hours, and
so forth?
Mr. Krause. In most instances.
Senator Ferguson. Did any of them not have to do with that?
Mr. Krause. I shouldn't have said "in most instances," because I
can't recall any instance where a leaflet didn't refer to some economic
issue like wages, hours, or length of the workweek.
Mr. Arens. How about antisubversive legislation?
Look at the next exhibit, and see if that recalls anything to your
memory ?
Mr. Krause. This is a leaflet that I probably handed out. I recall
seeing it but, as I saj'^, it is difficult to remember exactly which ones
were and which weren't, because, although I may have seen them,
I may remember distributing a particular one or may not. I probably
did distribute one.
Mr. Arens. On that exhibit — which we will mark "Exhibit 6" —
one of the items there is the Willie McGee rally. Were you cognizant
of that rally ?
Mr. Krause. I was aware that it was on the leaflet.
(Leaflet headlined "United action can win $900 pay raise" was
marked "Exhibit No. 6" and filed for the information of the com-
mittee.)
Mr. Arens. Did you know that that was a rally sponsored by the
Communists ?
Mr. Krause. I did not, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you know it now ?
Mv. Krause. I don't know it now unless you tell me that, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now, will you look at the next exhibit, which we will
mark ''v xhibit 7."
(Leaflet headlined "A message to the American people" was marked
"Exhibit No. 7" and filed for the information of the committee.)
Mr. Krause. I have never seen that leaflet.
Mr. Arens. Would you say positively you have not passed that
leaflet out 'i
Mr. Krause. Absolutely, positively, sir.
Mr. Arens. Will you look at the next exhibit, which we will mark
"Exhibits."
Mr. Krause. I don't recall having seen this leaflet.
(Leaflet headlined "Something new has been added," was marked
"Exhibit 8" and filed for the information of the committee.)
Mr. Arens. Would you say you did not pass this exhibit out ?
Mr. Krause. I wouldn't say definitely, sir. I don't recall it.
154 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Senator Ferguson. Wliat is your job again with the Immigration
and Naturalization Service?
Mr. Krause. I am in the Services and Supply Section which deals
"with the furnishing of supplies, stationery supplies, and pencils and
building material and what not, for the New York district offices,
purchasing and requisitioning from the Washington central office,
distribution of supplies to the various units and sections within the
district.
Mr. Arens. Did you have occasion to have an incident with Larry
Parr over some security file in the Immigration and Naturalization
Service, wlien you were perusing some files there ?
Mr. Krause. Incident?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Krause. I don't recall.
Mr. Arens. Do you in the course of your work, or have you in the
course of your work had occasion to have access to certain files of the
Immigration and Naturalization Service, ostensibly, if not otherwise,
for the purpose of counting the pages of testimony ?
Mr. Krause. Mentioning that does recall something to me. I don't
recall whether Larry Parr was involved or not. I do recall that
Murray Boriskin, who was an investigator in the New York district,
had occasion to use a contractor reporter, stenographic reporter, in
connection with a case he was handling,
Mr. Arens. That was the case of an alleged Communist, was it not?
Mr. Krause. I believe it was ; I am not certain. The only thing I
know about the case at all is the fact that Boriskin referred to it as a
subversive case. Beyond that I know nothing about the case.
Mr. Arens. Wliat were your dealings with that case or with the
file?
Mr. Krause. I had no dealing with the case or with the file, except
that the contractor holder for the reporting service had submitted a
bill for a certain number of pages and a charge for an index or some-
thing of that nature, and in order to process the bill and pass it for
payment I had to say whether that index sheet was actually included.
There was no question of counting the pages, of any necessity for
going through the files.
Mr. Arens. You did have the file in your physical possession; is
that riglit ?
Mr. Krause. I may have. I never did, however, have it in my pos-
session alone. I mean, I was right with Boriskin or one of the other
investigators at the time.
Mr. Arens. But you had it in your hands?
Mr. Krause. It may have been.
Mr. Arens. How could you count the pages in it?
Mr. Krause. I didn't count the pages.
Mr. Arens. How could you do what you were doing with the file
without having it in your hands?
Mr. Krause. I may have had it in my hands or it may have been
in one of the investigator's hands, and I turned back the cover sheet.
I don't recall exactly what the procedure was.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever refuse to pass out any bulletins which
were submitted to you for passing out by the local there, local 20 of the
United Public Workers, because of their content?
Mr. Krause. I don't particularly recall any such instances.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 155
Mr. Arens. Have you ever done so, to your recollection? Have
you ever refused to pass out any of these bulletins because of their
content ?
Mr. Krause. I don't recall.
Mr. Arens. Who recruited you into the local ?
Mr. Krause. You mean, who approached me for the purpose of
joining the union ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Krause. I don't thinlc it was anybody, sir.
Mr. Arens. Did you just join on your own initiative?
Mr. Krause. Well, I had worked there for several years. There
had been a number of people who did ask me to join at one time or
another. I didn't join at the times they asked me, and finally I just
joined on my own initiative.
Mr. Arens. Who asked you to join from time to time?
Mr. Krause. I don't even remember the names.
Mr. Arens. Who, besides yourself, in the employ of the Immigra-
tion and Naturalization Service, in New York City, is a member of
local 20 of the United Public Workers?
Mr. Krause. That includes Federal employees in all Federal agen-
cies in New York City. It is not restricted to anyone.
Mr. Arens. Who in the Immigration and Naturalization Service,
that is the question, in New York City, is also a member of local 20
of the United Public Workers of America ?
Mr. Krause. To my immediate knowledge, Miss Eleanor Klein,
Mr. and Mrs. Friedland.
Mr. Arens. How about Henrietta Kronich ?
Mr, Krause. To my knowledge she is not a member of the union.
Mr. Arens. Are those the only persons, to your knowledge, who are
members of the local ?
Mr. Krause. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Now, have you had occasion to participate in certain
demonstrations sponsored by the United Public Workers in New York
City?
Mr. Krause. I don't recall any specific instances.
Mr. Arens. Let me suggest a specific one for illustration. Were you
a participant in a peace mobilization demonstration under the auspices
of local 20 of the United Public Workers, or in which local 20 of the
United Public Workers participated, or you participated?
Mr. Krause. I didn't participate in any such mobilization, to my
knowledge; the local did not participate in any such mobilization.
Mr. Arens. Do you know of any picketing by the United Public
Workers in which you have participated ?
^ Mr. Krause. I did participate in a picket demonstration at one
time. It wasn't something that was sponsored bv the United Public
Workers. The United Public Workers did participate, though.
Mr. Arens. Tell us about that.
Mr. Krause. I believe that was in 1948. It was a demonstration
in front of Gimbel's department store in New York City.
Mr. Arens. What precipitated that demonstration ? Do you know?
Mr. Krause. I don't recall now what the specific causes of need
for the demonstration were.
Mr. Arens. You certainly knew what you were demonstrating
about ?
156 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Krause. At the time, yes. It was a question of Gimbel's not
wanting to recognize or negotiate with a local union which felt it had
jurisdiction over the employees at work there.
Mr. Arens. Have you participated in any demonstrations in which
local 20 of the United Public Workers was a sponsor, with reference to
deportation matters ?
Mr. Krause. No, sir ; I have not.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any information respecting a demonstra-
tion participated in by the United Public Workers, local 20, pertaining
to deportations?
Mr. Krause. I have no knowledge of any such happenings, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any information respecting any picketing
or any demonstration participated in by the United Public AVorkers,
local 20, pertaining to the trial of persons who were charged with
being subversive ?
Mr. Krause. I have no knowledge of any such participation, sir, and
I certainly did not participate in any such thing myself.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly tell the committee the names of any
organizations of which you are presently a member, other than local
20 of the United Public Workers ?
Mr. Krause. Yes, sir. I am a member of the United States Immi-
gration and Naturalization Service Employees Federal Credit Union,
the New York District Recreational Club of the Immigration and
Naturalization Service. I guess that is it.
Mr. Arens. Who is or was Mildred Schoen ?
Mr. Krause. She was an employee of the Immigration and Natu-
ralization Service in New York.
Mr. Arens. And over what period of time was she an employee?
Mr. Krause. I don't know the entire period, but I believe it was
some time in 1948 when she stopped working for the service.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not she was a member of
local 20?
Mr. Krause. She was, I believe.
Mr. Arens. Did you have associations with her in the course of your
affiliations with the United Public Workers local 20 ?
Mr. Krause. The only association that I had was in connection
with union activities.
Mr. Arens. What were your activities with her ?
Mr. Krause. I had no specific activities with her as an individual.
Any group thing, like a leaflet distribution, or a union meeting, I
may have been present at the same time that she was.
Mr. Arens. Did she distribute leaflets, too, of the United Public
Workers ?
Mr. Krause. I believe she did ; yes.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether she did or not? Did you ever
see her do it?
Mr. Krause. It has been so long it is difficult to remember, but I
guess she did — she probably did.
Mr. Arens. Who is or was Florence Zauderer ?
Mr. Krause. I don't know that name.
Mr. Arens. Who is or was Jennie Juliana ?
Mr. Krause. I don't know that name.
Mr. Arens. Who is or was Zerelda Zoff ?
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPVV^A 157
Mr. Krause. I don't know that name, sir. Just a minute. How
is that spelling again?
Mr. Akens. Z-o-f-f . Zerelda is the first name.
Mr. Krause. I do remember a Miss Zoff being employed in the
building as secretary to a Mr. Pendyck, who is Chief of Investigations.
That is the only connection in which I know the name at all.
]\Ir. Arens. Do you have any information respecting whether or
not she was affiliated with local 20?
Mr. Krause. No, sir ; I don't.
Mr. Arens. Who is the president of local 20 ?
Mr. Krause. Theodore Shipp.
Mr. Arens. Where is he located?
Mr. Krause. I believe he is employed by the Veterans' Admin-
istration.
Mr. Arens. In New York City ?
Mr. Krause. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Wlio is the vice president ?
Mr. Krause. That will require some additional thought. Louis
Meltzer.
Mr. Arens. What has been your acquaintanceship or association
with Mr. Shipp and Mr. Meltzer ?
Mr. lOiAusE. I have seen them at union meetings. I have seen
Mr. Shipp conduct a chair at local meetings.
Mr. Arens. How often do you attend the meetings ?
Mr. Krause. Possibly once a month.
Mr. Arens. Are you regular in your attendance?
Mr. Krause. Fairly regular.
Mr. Arens. Who are some of the other officers of local 20; do
jou know ?
Mr. Krause. There is a treasurer, recording secretary, and financial
secretary. Miss Lillian Kreiger, I believe, is the financial secretary.
Mr. Arens. And where is she employed ?
Mr. KJRAUSE. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you told us where the vice president is employed ?
Mr. Krause. No. I don't know where he is employed at present.
Mr. Arens. Where are the headquarters of local 20 ?
Mr. Krause. They are at 25 West Twenty-third Street, New York
Oity.
Mr. Arens. What is the nature of that building? Is it an office
building, or what is it ?
Mr. Krause. There is a store on the street level and to my knowl-
edge a photo studio on the floor above the local office. I don't know
whether there is anything above that.
Mr. Arens. The local office is on the second floor ?
Mr. Krause. On the second floor.
Mr. Arens. Is that office maintained on a permanent basis by local
20?
Mr. Krause. Yes, sir ; to my knowledge, it is. I don't know about
the details.
Mr. Arens. Is it occupied by another, by any other organization,
irom time to time, do you know ?
Mr. Khause. No, sir.
158 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Arens. You are sayinfi^ you do not know ?
Mr. Krause. I don't know for certain, but I have no knowledge of
any other organization using it.
Mr. Arens. Do any other organizations ever occupy that on a
rental basis or otherwise, at any time?
Mr. Krause. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Arens. How many members are there in local 20?
Mr. Krause. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Arens. How many generally attend the monthly meetings you
spoke of?
Mr. Krause. Tliere are perhaps 100, 125. I don't know what the
total membership would be, though.
Mr. Arens. As you understand it, are they all employees of the
Federal Government?
Mr. Krause. Yes. That is one of the requirements of the member-
ship.
Mr. Arens. That they be employees of the Federal Government?
Mr. Krause. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. You could not be an employee of the State or the city
government ?
Mr. Krause. That is right. Local 20 is known as the Federal
Workers Union. It is the Federal workers local of the United Public
Workers.
Mr. Arens. Who is president of the United Public Workers main
organization ?
Mr. Krause. The national organization?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Krause. That would be Abraham Flaxer.
Mr. Arens. Wliere is he located?
Mr. Krause. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you know the name of the president of the local in
Washington?
Mr. Krause. No, I don't.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever met Mr. Sidney Bernstein?
Mr. Krause. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever occupied any post or any assignment in
local 20, United Public Workers, other than the assignment which
you have described, as chairman of the recreational committee ?
Mr. Krause. Well, I am presently chairman of the I. and N. Branch,
local 20. The individual agency groups that belong to local 20 are
known as branches. I am chairman of the immigration and naturali-
zation branch.
Mr. Arens. When were you elected chairman of the immigration
and naturalization local branch?
Mr. Krause. About a year ago, I should say ; a year or a year and
a half ago.
Mr. xVrens. You were elected by whom?
Mr. Krause. By the members of the union in the immigration and
naturalization group.
Mr. Arens. You were elected by three other persons; is that right?
Mr. Krause. There were one or two others at that time? I don't
recall the names. The ones that I have mentioned were present there,
and there may have been a couple of others. I don't recall that now.
Mr. Arens. Where was the meeting held when you were elected?
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPV^A 159
Mr. Krause. At the local 20 office.
Mr. Arens. Did you have your separate meeting of your immigra-
tion branch of local 20 ?
Mr, Krause. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. According to your bylaws, what is a quorum?
Mr. Krause. I don't rightly know.
Mr. Arens. How often does the branch of which you are the chair-
man, hold sessions, or meet?
Mr. Krause. Well, there is no regular basis.
Mr. Arens. Give us the information you have.
Mr. Krause. In the course of a year we may have — what we would
generally do is have a brief meeting of our group before the general
membership meeting.
Mr. Arens. Would that be at the local 20 headquarters office ?
Mr. Krause. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you have sessions in the Immigration Department?
Mr. Krause. No meetings, as such.
Mr. Arens. Do you ever have discussions of the branch of the local
there?
Mr. Krause. There may be questions of one or two people discussing
something at lunch time.
Mr. Arens. What does the branch do ? What is its function ?
Mr. Krause. Its function is to do what it can to improve working
conditions in the branch.
Mr. Arens. Now, if the local 20 meets only once a month, where
do you get these leaflets that you pass out ? •
Mr. Krause. From the local 20 office.
Mr. Arens. You go down there and get them yourself ?
Mr. Krause. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. How do you know they are there ?
Mr. Krause. Well, it has been a fairly common practice for the local
or some committee of the local to prepare at least one leaflet a week,
and it is fairly safe that one will be available, if you go there.
Mr. Arens. Wlien do you go down there ?
Mr. Krause. Of an evening.
Mr. Arens. How many copies of the leaflets do you procure when
you go there ?
Mr. Krause. About 600.
Mr. Arens. What do you do with those 600 ?
Mr. Krause. Distribute them in front of the entrances to the build-
ing.
Mr. Aeens. When do you do that?
Mr. Krause. Before hours.
Mr. Arens. Who assists you in doing that?
Mr. Krause. The other members that I have mentioned.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any choice in the selection of the leaflets
which you distribute or do you just take those leaflets which this
committee has prepared and distribute them there ?
Mr. Krause. If we find that for any reason, if the situation should
arise where the content of the leaflet is something that we, as a branch,
don't agree with or don't approve of in any way, we wouldn't distribute
it, probably.
Mr. Arens. You say you probably wouldn't. You testified earlier
that you never declined to pass out a leaflet which has been submitted
to you because of the contents ; is that true ?
160 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPVi^A
Mr. Krause. That is right, sir. That is why I say now that we
probably would, if the nature of the contents were such that we would
have occasion to question it.
Mr. Arens. Look back over these exhibits then, which you have
seen, and see if there are any of them there, the contents of which you
would question ?
Mr. Krause. Well, this one, exhibit 8 — the references to the Munclt
bill I would question, because I don't know anything about the Mundt
bill.
Mr. Arens. Then, if you saw this leaflet there when j^ou arrived on
this weekly session, as the leaflet that you were to pass out, I assume
you
Mr. Krause. I would ask what the Mundt bill is all about, and try
to find out what this is that is being talked about, before I would make
any attempt to distribute it.
Mr. Arens. Would you distribute this leaflet?
Mr. Krause. I wouldn't distribute it without knowing what it is all
about.
Mr. Arens. But you have never declined to distribute a leaflet ?
Mr. Krause. That is true.
Mr. Arens. Proceed with the next one.
Mr. Krause. Exhibit No. 7, 1 have never seen.
Mr. Arens. Would you decline to distribute this ?
Mr. Krause. I certainly would.
Mr. Arens. Why?
Mr. Krause. For one thing, the issue here is something which is
protesting an action by my own Agency. I am a loyal employee of
my Agency, and I certainly would not support anything which is
contrary to its policies.
Mr. Arens. How do you account for the fact that these are leaflets
which have been distributed ?
Mr. Kjrause. By whom, sir?
Mr. Arens. I just want to probe your thinking on it. Does this
not present here a very curious situation to your mind, that these are
leaflets, at least on their face at the moment, purporting to be leaflets
issued by local 20, Federal Workers Union?
Mr. Krause. This one, sir, does not mention local 20, Federal
Workers Union.
Mr. Arens. Well, those that do.
Mr. Krause. One, four, and three don't mention local 20 on them at
all, sir. I have never seen them at all.
Mr. Arens. If other employees of the Immigration Service have
told this committee that they procured these from the front of the
Immigration Building there, without at the moment intimating from
whom they procured them, how could you account for it?
You are out there a couple times a month to pass these things out,
passing out leaflets.
Mr. Krause. So far as leaflets that are issued by other than local 20
of the United Federal Workers Union, there are or have been on occa-
sions, from time to time, demonstrations and distributions of leaflets
by persons other than local 20's members.
Mr. Arens. Who else distributes them besides your associates?
Mr. Krause. I don't know, but I have observed from windows in
the building in the course of working hours leaflets being distributed.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 161
I have seen people walking in front of the building with placards
protesting one thing or another, but certainly not local 20 or any
members of it.
Mr. Arens. Are any people out there distributing leaflets while you
are distributing the leaflets of local 20 ?
Mr. Krause. I have never observed it, sir.
Mr. Arens. Let us just take this exhibit 8 here for the moment, if
you please.
Mr. Krause. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Does it not present a curious situation to your mind,
that that leaflet is in existence by the United Public Workers and that
you said you have never seen it before?
Mr. Krause. I don't assert I have never seen it before. I don't recall
having seen it.
Mr. Arens. You say if you had seen it, you would have made inquiry
about the contents.
Mr. Krause. If it had been presented to me as a leaflet for me to
distribute in front of the Immigration and Naturalization Building,
I certainly would have questioned it.
Mr. Arens. You read every leaflet before you actually distribute it ?
Mr. Krause. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever run into any leaflet that you had
questions about?
Mr. Krause. Not that I recall, sir.
Mr. Arens. And you have never declined to pass out leaflets that
were in the stack that were available for you when you got to head-
quarters ; is that right ?
Mr. Krause. Not to my recollection. •
Mr. Arens. Now, to whom do you report when you go to pick up
these leaflets ?
Mr. Krause. No particular person. There may be the president or
vice president there. It may be a meeting of the committee in session,
the legislative committee, perhaps.
Mr. Arens. Where are these leaflets generally reposing ?
Mr. Krause. They are generally near the mimeograph machine.
Mr. Akens. Do you walk over to the mimeograph machine and pick
up the leaflets ?
Mr. Krause. After asking what is available on the pay raise, or
what is available on leaflets this week, I will be told that there is a
leaflet on a visit to Washington last week, it is in the back room. That
is a specific instance.
Mr. Arens. Who tells you that ?
Mr. Krause. Maybe the president, vice president, maybe the chair-
man of the legislative committee.
Mr. Arens. Who is he ?
Mr. Krause. Louis Marcus.
Mr. Arens. Where does he work ?
Mr. Krause. I don't know, sir. I know that he did work for the
Navy Department. I know he no longer works for the Navy Depart-
ment, but I don't know which agency he is in now. I had heard he
had gotten transferred.
Mr. Arens. Take a glance again at exhibit No. 2. Did you pass
out that leaflet? That leaflet, by the way, has the identification of
United Public Workers, local 20.
162 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Kratjse. Yes. This is exhibit 2.
Mr. Arens. What is your comment on the question, please?
Mr. KjiAUSE. I probably would, sir.
Mr. Arens. You would pass that one out ?
Mr. Krause. Probably. You see, this was issued March 8, 1949.
Mr. Arens. Who is the chairman of the legislative committee?
Mr. Krause. Louis Marcus.
Mr. Arens. Who handles the actual preparation of these leaflets?
Mr. Krause. You mean who writes them, sir ?
Mr. Arens. Yes. Who has something to do with them that you
know about?
Mr. Krause. The chairman of the committee and the members of
the committee, I guess.
Mr. Arens. Who are the members of the committee?
Mr. Krause. I don't know all the names.
Mr. Arens. Tell us those you do know.
Mr. Krause. I know one or two by their first names. One is Har-
riet. There are some others whose names I don't know.
Mr. Arens. Would you pass out that leaflet, exhibit 8?
Mr. Krause. No, sir; I wouldn't, without questioning it, to know
all about it.
Mr. Arens. That is an exhibit on its face which was issued by
local 20?
Mr. Krause. Yes ; prepared by local 20.
Mr. Arens. You have no doubt in your mind that it is a leaflet
prepared by local 20 ?
Mr. Krause. I have no doubt, sir, based on the signature. Not
knowing what this Mundt bill is all about, I would question it before
making a decision as to handing it out or not handing it out.
Mr. Arens. I take it you are saying, in effect, you have not seen that
around headquarters — that was not one you picked up ?
Mr. Krause. That is right.
Mr. Arens. This is exhibit 5 [handing]. Would you pass that
one out ?
Mr. Krause. Yes, sir ; I probably would.
Mr. Arens. Without questioning it ; is that right?
Mr. Krause. No. Being somewhat familiar with the contents,
having been the subject of loyalty investigations myself, I probably
would hand it out.
Mr. Arens. This exhibit will speak for itself. I will not undertake
to describe it. That is exhibit No. 5.
Mr. Krause. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Does anybody else besides you go down to the local
Mr. Krause. Local office ?
Mr. Arens. Local office?
Mr. Krause. Yes, sir. The others that I mentioned do.
Mr. Arens. Do you pick out all 600 yourself ?
Mr. Krause. No, sir; we all do.
Mr. Arens. Then there are 600 distributed among the three or four
of you who are in local 20 ?
Mr. Krause. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Are virtually all of these leaflets given to the employ-
ees of the Immigration Service as they enter the building or leave
the building ?
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 163
Mr. Krause. I would say so, sir.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever get into any controversy with any of
them about the leaflets ?
Mr, Kjiause, I don't recall any, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have any of your associates who passed out the leaflets
gotten into any controversy with them?
Mr. Krause. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Arens. Who is the vice chairman of the branch of this local
of the Immigration Service?
Mr. Krause. There isn't any, sir.
Mr. Arens. You just have one officer, and that is you ?
Mr. Krause. No. There is a chairman, a financial secretary and
treasurer.
Mr. Arens. To your knowledge, are all of the leaflets which you
distribute prepared right there in the local headquarters, or are they
procured elsewhere, some of them?
Mr. Krause. To my knowledge, they are all prepared at the local
office.
Mr. Arens. Who is the financial secretary ?
Mr. Krause. This is Friedland.
Mr. Arens. Who is J. Finney Wilson ?
Mr. Krause. I don't know that name.
Mr. Arens. Who is John Kogge ?
Mr. Krause. I have seen the name in print, a former Assistant
Attorney General.
Mr. Arens. Have you attended meetings at which he was a speaker
on various matters ?
Mr. Krause. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Let us try another exhibit. We will mark this
"Exhibit 9."
Did you pass out that exhibit, or have you ever seen it before ?
(Leaflet headlined "They're at it again" was marked "Exhibit 9"
and filed for the information of the committee.)
Mr. Krause. I don't recall having seen this before, sir.
Mr. Arens. Would you pass that one out if it were available
there for you to pass out when you went there to get these 600 leaflets ?
Mr. Krause. I would have to know more about the facts in the case,
befoi'e so doing.
Mv. xVrens. On how many leaflets that you have picked up there
have you had questions about and discussed the contents of the leaflet
with someone before you passed it out ?
Mr. Krause. I don't recall any specific number. There may have
been one or two such occasions.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall the contents of the leaflet which precip-
itated the discussion?
Mr. Krause. Sir, I am afraid not.
Mr. Arens. Were they leaflets which involved questions of loyalty
questions of subversives or Communists ?
Mr. Krause. To the best of my recollection, no sir ; they dealt with
things that I wasn't too familiar with and I wanted more informa-
tion on the facts.
Mr. Arens. Did you get additional information?
164 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Krause. As I recall it, I did. I don't recall what the substance
of the leaflet was or what the discussion was, but I do recall that there
were a couple of occasions when I had such discussions.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall any leaflets which were passed out, issued
by the American Labor Party, distributed by your local ?
Mr. Krause. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall any leaflets which were prepared, osten-
sibly, at least, by the Communist Party ?
Mr. Krause. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. But were distributed by your local ?
Mr. Krause. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall any leaflets which were prepared by the
American Committee for the Protection of Foreign-Born which were
distributed by your local?
Mr. Krause. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Let us mark that leaflet "Exhibit No. 10," if you please.
(Leaflets headlined "All New York is going to the penthouse" was
marked "Exhibit No. 10" and filed for the information of the com-
mittee.)
Mr. Arens. I would like to ask you whether or not you passed that
leaflet out.
Mr. Krause. I remember this. It was either passed out or sent to
the administrative officer for approval for posting on the bulletin
boards.
Mr. Arens. Did you post it on the bulletin board ?
. Mr. Krause. It was either sent to him for approval for posting and
he did approve it, or it was distributed; I don't recall which, but
I know the information on here was made available to the employees.
Mr. Arens. "\^nio is the administrative officer ?
Mr. Krause. Mr. Zucker.
Mr. Arens. He approved that for posting ?
Mr. Krause. I don't recall whether he did or didn't.
Mr. Arens. But he made the information available ?
Mr. Krause. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Did you give that leaflet to Mr. Zucker ?
Mr. Krause. I believe so. I do recall there was a dance leaflet that
was submitted to Mr. Zucker for approval, for posting on the bulletin
boards. I don't recall whether it was this one or another one. It may
have been this one. But the information on here was made available
to the employees in the building.
Mr. Arens. Have you been called on the carpet by the higher echelon
of the Immigration Service in New York City for your activities?
Mr. Krause. Well, I don't know whether "called on the carpet" is
the term or not. I guess that would be an appropriate term on the
occasion of one specific occurrence.
Mr. Arens. What was that occurrence, if you please ?
Mr. Krause. The circulation by me in the agency among my co-
workers of a peace petition.
Mr. Arens. Wlien was that ?
Mr. Krause. That was last year, during July, I believe.
Mr. Arens. Where did you procure that peace petition ?
Mr. Krause. At local 20 union office.
Mr. Arens. Did that bear the identification of
Mr. Krause. No, sir.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 165
Mr. Arens. Of local 20?
Mr. Krause. No, sir; it had the name of some labor organization
on it.
Mr. Arens. But it was not local 20 ?
Mr. Krause, No, sir.
Mr. Arens. What did you do with this peace petition which you
procured at the local office ?
Mr. Krause. I just picked it up there — nobody gave it to me. It
was just lying there on the table. I picked it up, read it on the way
home.
Mr. Arens. Was it a form ?
Mr. Krause. It was a form petition. The sentiment expressed in it
appeared to be worthy ones, I felt it was something I would be
anxious to support in view of President Truman's policy of urging
peace and asking all citizens to do whatever they could to make it pos-
sible for peace to be won, lasting peace to be won. I signed it and
asked my coworkers to sign it.
Mr. Arens. Whom did you ask to sign it ?
Mr. KJRAUSE. People who worked right in my section. Do you
want to know all the names, sir ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, if you please.
Mr. Krause. Miss Arlene Ardita.
Mr. Arens. These are all people who signed the petition, is that
right?
Mr. Krause. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. By the way, before you proceed with naming the others,
was there any identification of the organization that sponsored the
petition ?
Mr. Krause. On the petition?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Krause. There was the name of some labor organization which
I have been trying for several weeks to recall. This same line of
questioning was pursued in the course of a hearing before the Depart-
ment of Justice Loyalty Board, at which I was respondent, about 2
weeks ago. I just haven't been able to recall the name. I do know
it was a labor organization, but I haven't been able to recall the name.
Mr. Arens. All right. Proceed, if you will, please.
Mr. Krause. Mrs. Julie Janoff, Samuel Goldfarb, Lillian Medow,
Isadore Hellman, Emile Bernier, Joseph Costelano, Frank Bruno, I
don't recall any others, sir — and, of course, I signed it myself,
Mr. Arens. Did you procure permission from your supervisor to
circulate this petition ?
Mr. Krause. No, sir; it was done on the lunch hour.
Mr. Arens. Where was it done?
Mr. Krause. In the building.
Mr. Arens. What did you do with the petition after it was signed?
Mr. Krause. When the petition was signed I went back to the union
office with it, and not knowing whether it was something that had
been, something that was being circulated by the union or not, there
being nobody in authority there at the moment, I left it at the desk
of one of the organizers.
Mr. Arens. At the local headquarters?
Mr. Krause. That is right.
166 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF TH^* UPWA
Mr. Arens. Have you distributed any other petitions of that
character ^
Mr. Kkause. No, sir; absolutely not.
Mr. Arens. Have you distributed any other leaflets than leaflets
which you procured at the headquarters?
Mr. ICrause. No, sir.
* * * * * * «
Mr. Arens. Would you mark this "Exhibit No. 11"?
(Leaflet entitled "UPW Celebrates Negro History Week" was
marked "Exhibit No. 11" and filed for the information of the com-
mittee.)
Mr. Arens. I would like to ask you if you passed that one out?
Mr. Krause. Again I don't recall specifically whether I handed it
out or not, but I Avould have no objection to.
Mr. Arens. Now, on this exhibit 11, I see here the name of Paul
Robeson. Does that name register with you in any respect?
Mr. Krause. I know he is a singer.
Mr. AjJENs. You know of his affiliations and activities beyond just
the fact he is a singer ?
Mr. Krause. I have seen his name in the newspapers, on occasion,
but never paid too much attention to it.
Mr. Arens. What is the nature of the articles which you have seen
about Paul Robeson?
Mr. Krause. The only thing I c'^r«,-recall now is something in con-
nection with a concert. '^''\\'
Mr. Arens. Did you attend th^:^' affair which was advertised on
exhibit 12 ?
Mr. Krause. May I see it again, please, sir? I did attend this
No. 1 liere, Conference at Church of the Master, 360 West One Hun-
dred and Twenty-second Sfreet.
Mr. Arens. When was that conference?
Mr. Krause. February 16, 1951, at 8 o'clock.
Mr. Arens. What was the meeting about?
Mr. Krause. It dealt, as I recall, with the contribution of Negroes
to the growth of the United States.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon ? I did not understand you.
Mr. Krause. It dealt with the contributions of the Negro people to
the growth of the United States, the growth and development of the
United States.
Mr. Arens. And, to your recollection, who were the principal
speakers ?
Mr. Krause. I recall there was a member of one of the New York
State locals of the United Public Workers who spoke.
Mr. Arens. Was W. E. DuBois there?
Mr. Krause. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you know him ?
Mr. Krause. I have seen his name.
Mr. Arens. Proceed, if you please.
Mr. Krause. I don't recall any particularly prominent persons
having been present there at that conference. There were members
of the several locals of the United Public Workers.
Mr. Arens. Would you tell us what other meetings you have at-
tended of that character, or conferences, under the auspices of local
20?
SUBV^^SIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 167
Mr. Krause. I don't recall any others. There is another meeting
mentioned there.
Mr. Arens. To get back to the leaflet, you say you would distribute
this leaflet ; is that right ?
Mr. Krause. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you not have some information to the effect that
Paul Kobeson, whose name appears on this leaflet, is a Communist?
Mr. Krause. No, sir ; I don't.
Mr. Arens. You have seen in these articles reference to his pro-
Communist attitudes, have you not ?
Mr. KJRAUSE. Well, I don't specifically recall what the things were.
The thing I recall is his name in connection with a concert that was
held in up-State New York some time ago. The only thing that
brought it to my attention was the fact that there was some violence in
connection with it.
Mr. Arens. You had no doubt in your mind that the violence was
precipitated over the Communist issue ; is that not true ?
Mr. Krause. I don't actually know, sir. I mean, I didn't pay too
much attention to the details of the case. It was pretty far removed
from me. I had no special immediate interest in it. I recall seeing
his name as being a singer at that concert and that there was some
violence as a result of it, a number of people hurt, and so forth. I
didn't pay too much attention to the details.
Mr. Arens. Are you telling this committee now that after you
read that article about Paul Rf son and the violence at the meeting,
that you had no concept at all Ui t the violence was in any sense con-
nected with Paul Robeson's Communist affiliations, connections, and
attitude ?
Mr. Krause. I don't recall, sir.
Mr, Arens. Do you know at this moment whether or not Paul Robe-
son is mixed up with the Communists ?
Mr. Krause, I don't, sir.
Mr. Arens. You say you know the name of DuBois ?
Mr. Krause. I have seen the name.
Mr. Arens. His name appears on exhibit 11, does it not?
Mr. Krause. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. In what connection have you seen his name?
Mr. Krause. I have seen his name very recently, in the past few
days, in connection with an indictment in connection with activities,
some peace activities that he was involved in.
Mr. Arens. He was indicted February 9, 1951, was he not?
Mr. Krause. I don't recall the date. It was very recent. Previ-
ously I had seen his name on election throwaways around the neigh-
borhood. He was running for some sort of office.
Mr. Arens. He was vice president of the Progressive Party, was
he not ?
Mr. Krause. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Arens. You knew that before you saw this dodger here, about
5 minutes ago, exhibit 11, did you not?
Mr. Krause. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Arens. You knew about DuBois and Paul Robeson before you
saw this dodger 5 minutes ago, exhibit 11 ; is that not true?
Mr. Krause. I knew about Robeson and I knew about DuBois. I
knew that DuBois had been indicted ; yes, sir.
92838—52 12
168 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Arens. You knew about the incident at which violence had been
precipitated in the Robeson concert ?
Mr. Krause. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. You knew that before you saw this dodger, about 5
minutes ago; is that true?
Mr. Krause. If I know it now I knew it 5 minutes ago.
Mr. Arens. You did not receive that information since you saw
dodger, exhibit 11 ?
Mr. Krause. I couldn't have.
Mr. Arens. Am I to understand you nevertheless passed this dodger
out?
Mr. Krause. I didn't examine the names carefully, sir, at this point,
and when I say I would pass it out, I mean I would pass it out at the
time it was issued. That is what I meant in all those instances.
Mr. Arens. How do you know when this dodger was issued?
Mr. Krause. Whenever the date of the event is, it would be shortly
before that.
Mr. Arens. Did it ever occur to you, Mr. Krause, that it might be
Communists, who are behind this type of dodger, flyer, or leaflet?
Mr. Krause. I haven't thought about it, sir.
Mr. Arens. Did it ever occur to you it might be Communist influ-
ence being brought to bear somewhere in the preparation of some of
these dodgers?
Mr. Krause. I haven't seen any particular Communist influence that
I would recognize as such. I don't know if I would recognize it
particularly, if I saw it, except it were really blatant.
Mr. Arens. Have you been solicited to join the Communist Party?
Mr. Krause. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever pass out any dodgers on the Willie McGee
case?
Mr. Krause. There have been leaflets which made mention of the
Willie McGee case.
Mr. Arens. Did you interrogate the people at local 20 as to what
the Willie McGee case was about?
Mr. Krause. The facts of the case were made available to us at one
of the meetings.
Mr. Arens. How do you know you got the facts?
Mr. Krause. Well, sir, I didn't actually do any independent re-
search work on it, but, to the best of my knowlerdge I have never been
given incorrect information.
Mr. Arens. Who presented the facts on the Willie McGee case to
you?
Mr. Krause. I believe it was the president of the local.
Mr. Arens. What did he say about the Willie McGee case?
Mr. Krause. The facts, as he put it were that this man was convicted
of rape, sentenced to death. The fact that there apparently is no con-
clusive proof that the man was actually guilty of the crime.
Mr. Arens. He told you that?
Mr. Krause. That is what he said. Even if he were guilty of the
crime of rape, the death penalty would appear to be unequal justice
since no white man ever convicted of rape in the State where Willie
McGee lived was ever sentenced to death on the basis of such a con-
viction.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 169
Mr. Arens. You took that at its face value ?
Mr. Krause. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Did he say he had examined the record in the case ?
Mr. Krause. He didn't say so specifically, but he said he had the
facts available.
Mr. Arens. Did he seem to be a lawyer? Is he a lawyer?
Mr. Krause. No ; he is not.
Mr. Arens. Did he say where he got his facts ?
Mr. Krause. No ; he didn't.
Mr. Arens. And you accepted that as fact; is that true?
Mr. Krause, Yes, sir. Excuse me — he did make reference to a
newspaper, in the course of his
Mr. Arens. It was not the Daily Worker, was it?
Mr. Krause. No, sir ; it was the New York Compass.
Mr. Arens. Do you take the New York Compass ?
Mr. Krause. No, sir ; I don't.
Mr. Arens. Do you take the Daily Worker?
Mr. Krause. No, sir : I don't.
Mr. Arens. Now, even though you may not distribute leaflets of
■otlier organizations from local 20 in New York, when you go up there
do you see other leaflets of other organizations ?
Mr. Krause. Not as a general rule. There may be some on a bul-
letin board. There may be announcement of a social function of one
of the other United Public Workers' locals.
Mr. Arens. How about such organizations as the American Com-
mittee for the Protection of Foreign-Born ? Do they have leaflets that
you have seen up there ?
Mr. Krause. I have never seen such.
Mr. Arens. Any other organizations that have leaflets up there,
that you recall seeing ?
Mr. Krause. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Does the union headquarters censor local 20 bulletins,
do you know ?
Mr. Krause. Beg pardon ?
Mr. Arens. Does the United Public Workers national headquarters
pass on, censor, or participate in the preparation of local 20 bulletins ?
Mr. Krause. Not to my knowledge, sir. So far as I know, anything
that is prepared in local 20 is prepared by members of local 20.
Mr. Arens. Do you know where they get their information ?
Mr. Krause. It depends on the nature of the information, with
regard to pay raises or other legislative matters, such as annual leave,
and so forth.
Mr. Arens. How about the loyalty investigations ? Where do they
get their information on that?
Mr. Krause. Probably from people who have been subjected to
loyalty investigations and have compared notes.
Mr. Arens. Do you have that information as a fact?
Mr. Krause. Beg pardon ?
Mr. Arens. Do you have that information as a fact, that is where
they get their information?
Mr. Krause. No, sir ; I don't have that as a fact. That is the only
possible source that I can see.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been in contact with Carol King ?
Mr. Krause. No, sir.
170 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Arens. Do you have any particular enemies there in the Immi-
gration Service in New York that you know about ?
Mr. Krause. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Mr. Arens. Any controversy with any of them over passing out
these leaflets ?
Mr. Krause. No, sir. If I have any enemies, they are keeping it
very well concealed from me. To my knowledge, I have only good
relations with everybody I come in contact with there.
Mr. Arens. What other picketing have you been in besides the
Gimbel picketing^
You were in that one, were you not ?
Mr. Krause. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. What other picketing have you been in besides that
one?
Mr. Krause. I have been in a picket demonstration in front of a
Government office building, regarding the ouster on charges of one
of the employees of the agency.
Mr. Arens. Charges as a subversive; is that right?
Mr. Krause. No, sir ; it was a gambling charge.
Mr. Arens. What building was that ?
Mr. Krause. That was the Veterans' Administration Building.
Mr. Arens. When was that ?
Mr. Krause. It has been sometime ago. I don't recall.
Mr. Arens. Has it been a year ago ?
Mr. Krause. It has been more than that.
Mr. Arens. Has it been as much as 2 years ago ?
Mr. Krause. More than that.
Mr. Arens. Has it been as much as 3 years ago ?
Mr. Krause. Well, let me try to fix some other dates in my mind.
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Krause. I would say it probably happened sometime during
1949. It may have been late 1948 or sometime in 1919. I do recall
making reference to it before the Department of Justice Loyalty
Board in December 1949; so it must have preceded that.
Mr. Arens. How did you happen to be involved in the picketing?
Who told you about that ?
Mr. Krause. It was sponsored by local 20.
Mr. Arens. Wlio told you to picket ?
Mr. Krause. Specifically it may have been the organizer who made
we aware of the fact that there was such a demonstration or I may
have gotten the information at a meeting at the local that preceded
the picket demonstration. I don't recall exactly the source. It has
been some time. It is hard to remember a detail like that.
Mr. Arens. Did you carry a placard ?
Mr. Krause. I may have.
Mr. Arens. You would remember it if you carried a placard?
Mr. Krause. I don't know, sir ; I may or may not have.
Mr. Arens. You have not participated in many picket lines, have
you?
Mr. Krause. Not many, sir. I recall only those two.
Mr. Arens. They are pretty vivid in your memory ?
Mr. Krause. Fairly. As far as the placard is concerned, I may or
may not have carried one. I don't feel I would have had any objection
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 171
to carrying one because I was in agreement with the things that they
said, that these placards said at the time.
Mr, Arens. What did the placards say ?
Mr. IvRAUSE. They said, "Keinstate this employee." They said, as
I recall, every second or third placard said, "This is not a strike."
It made it plain to the public passing by, or anyone who had business
in the building, that there was no strike going on against the Govern-
ment, that it was a demonstration to bring to the public eye the action
of an administrator in an office against an employee.
Mr. Arens. What investigation of the facts did you make person-
ally before you decided to picket ?
Mr. Krause. I didn't make any personal investigation, but the facts
in the case were made known probably at a union meeting by whoever
the presiding officer at the meeting was, probably the president at that
time, and there was factual information made available by coworkers
of the employee involved. The fact that there had been all available
methods tried, the question of an appeal to the President's Fair Em-
ployment Practice Board, and an appeal to the Civil Service Commis-
sion, and direct appeal for discussion and negotiation of the matter
with the Administrator in the Agency, and that no change was had
in the position that the Administrator took in the discharge of the
employee.
Mr. Arens. After all of these administrative remedies had been
exhausted and the President's Commission had passed on the case,
the Civil Service Commission passed on the case, then you felt obliged
to participate in the picket line ; is that right ?
Mr. Krause. No, sir. From the information we got, the President's
Fair Employment Practice Board had issued a decision that the dis-
missal was unwarranted but the Agency head did not accept the rec-
ommendation of the Board. My understanding is that the Board has
no power to carry out its decisions. It merely recommends to the
Agency head and it is within the province of the Agency head to
accept or reject the decision.
Mr. Arens. How about the Civil Service Commission ?
Mr. Krause. I don't recall now what stage the thing was in, whether
the Civil Service Commission had refused to hear the case. The fact
is, though, within a comparatively short time subsequent to the dem-
onstration, the employee was reinstated.
Mr. Arens. Who participated in these two picketings from the
Immigration Service other than yourself, to your knowledge ?
Mr. Krause. I don't recall, sir.
Mr. Arens. Are you now or have you ever been a member of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Krause. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. I understood you to say a little while ago something
to the effect — and I do not want to misquote you in any sense — tliat
you would have no hesitancy to pass out these leaflets condemning the
loyalty investigations of Government employees ; is that right ?
Mr. Krause. That is right, sir.
Mr. Arens. What is on your mind on that ?
Mr. Krause. It is not the loyalty investigations, as such, or even
the need for loyalty investigations. It is the apparent way in which
these investigations are conducted where opinion questions are asked
172 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
of people who hardly know the subjects in many instances, such as,,
well, in my own case.
I lived in an apartment that I had moved into approximately 8
weeks before an FBI investigator called on my neighbors there to
inquire about me. These people were asked whether they thought I
was loyal, whether they thought I was a Communist, or whether they
thought I might be a Communist. Well, it is true that it may be
possible for people within a period of 6 or 8 weeks to get to know that
someone does do things which may look to them is like Communist
activity, but in most instances, a short period of time like that is hardly
enough to give weight to information that a person gives who has
hardly known you at all, and only knows of the fact that you may live
in the building. Not that I have anything to hide or ever had anything
to hide, and those such activities as I have participated in are not
secret; they are known to everybody. I have been cleared by the
Department of Justice Loyalty Board on loyalty charges once. I
don't know what the present status is of the second hearing that I was
respondent in 2 weeks ago but I have never been disloyal. I have
never consciously done any act that is disloyal.
Mr. Arens. Let me interpose this question here : Has it not occurred
to you that some of this material, some of these persons whose names
appear on these leaflets, are subversive and disloyal, and that one who
would pass out their leaflets, promote their causes is, in effect, promot-
ing the Communist conspiracy in the United States? Have you ever
had any thought along that line ?
Mr. Krause. I haven't had any thoughts along that line because
it has never even come to me that such might be the case.
Mr. Arens. Why has it not occurred to you? You have heard of
Paul Robeson and his Communist connections ?
Mr. Krause. I haven't, sir. I am being quite honest when I say I
haven't. The only connection that I have heard of, as I say, is this
concert at which there was a riot.
Mr. Arens. Are you not aware of tlie sponsorship of the Willie
McGee matter by the Communists ?
Mr. Krause. I didn't know that was the case, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now, if you were aware of that, would you be a little
leary about passing out some of this literature ?
Mr. Krause. I would, most certainly.
Mr. Arens. Stirring up the Willie McGee matter.
Mr. Krause. I certainly would. I certainly would not want under
any circumstances to be associated with anything that is sponsored by
the Communists, because I am not a Communist, I am not sympathetic
with communism.
Mr. Arens. What have you done from the standpoint of satisfying
your mind that the literature that you have been passing out and your
associates in these various functions are not subversive?
Mr. Krause. I have had no indication.
Mr. Arens. Did you not get some intimation of that when you were
under loyalty investigation ? Did it occur to you that perhaps you are
being investiagted on some basis ?
Mr. Krause. Well, I don't know what the initial basis for the inves-
tigation was. I know what the charges were when they were served
on me.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 17.^
Mr. Arens. You knew that the charges pertained to your partici-
pation in the activities of passing out these leaflets and your association
with certain people ; did you not ?
Mr. Kraose. The charges dealt with an alleged association that I
had with people. I wasn't really associated with these people at alL
I didn't know them personally. I don't have any social contact with
them.
Mr. Arens. You read the papers?
Mr. Krause. Fairly regularly.
Mr. Arens. You know in general the menace in this country of
Communists and Communist's conspiracy?
Mr. Krause. I have seen reference to it, sir.
Mr. Arens. It is a pretty vital issue these days?
Mr. Krause. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you read about the Communist-inspired peace-
petitions ?
Mr. Krause. I have, sir.
Mr. Arens. Was that after you circulated the petition?
Mr. Krause. It was, sir.
Mr. Arens. When was it you had this loyalty investigation, or first
had any intimation that your loyalty might be in question.
Mr. Krause. My first loyalty investigation ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Krause. Late 1948 or early 1949.
Mr. Arens. Since 1949, you have passed out a number of these
leaflets?
Mr. Krause. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. You have never refused to pass out one on the basis
of content ; is that true ?
Mr. Krause. I don't recall ever having done that, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have not your suspicions been aroused on the basis
of the fact that in 1949 your loyalty was questioned, as to your asso-
ciations and activities ?
Mr. Krause. Well, the specific charges in that loyalty case were
answered, and the Board was convinced there was no foundation.
Mr. Arens. Answer my question. Did you not have your suspi-
cions aroused as to your own connections and activities?
Mr. Krause. With regard to the union, sir.
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Krause. No, sir; because my union activity was not a subject
of the charges.
Mr. Arens. What was the subject of the charges, then?
Mr. Krause. The subject of the charges was my alleged associa-
tion with people who had formerly been members of the union who,
as I learned at that time, were either discharged or resigned from the
Government under loyalty charges.
Mr. Arens. Did that not arouse your suspicions as to the loyalty
of others who were and are associated with you in the distribution of
these leaflets and petitions and attending these various functions?
Mr. Kj?ause. Nobody else distributed this peace petition with me,,
sir; that was purely an individual act on my part.
Mr. Arens. Somebody had the peace petition prepared ; you did not
prepare it ?
174 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr, Kratjse. It was a single copy of a piece petition.
Mr. Arens. Did not your suspicions become a little aroused as to
who might have prepared that petition that you picked up ?
Mr. Krause. My suspicions were aroused as soon as I learned the
true facts of the petition and what its nature was.
Mr. Arens. But you picked up that petition after 1949; did you
not?
Mr. Krause. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Now, as of the time you picked up that petition, did you
have any information at all that the Communists were inspiring
peace petitions?
Mr. Krause. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. Arens. But you knew as of the time you ])icked up the peace
petition that you had been under investigation for your loyalty; is
that not true ?
Mr. Krause. Yes, sir ; I did know that.
Mr. Arens. Did that not make you a little bit more careful about
your activities and to make a little inquiry as to who might be behind
something ?
Mr. Krause. Well, I felt pretty strongly about peace, as I am sure
v/e all do. None of us want to have the threat of war over our heads
for the protection of our families, our children, and we are very
anxious to have peace. If there is something that looks very appeal-
ing and attractive to somebody who — well, I have a 214-year-old
daughter, my wife is expecting another baby momentarily — I may
get a call before I leave here, that she has gone to the hospital to have
a second baby.
Mr. Arens. I hope everything is successful.
Mr. Kr£\use, So do I, although she promised she would not call.
Mr. Arens. Well, we will be as quick as possible in concluding your
testimony.
Mr. Krause. She does not want to worry me in any way, while I am
in Washington and she is up in New York.
Mr. Arens. Have you not ever heard of Communist dupes, people
that are used by the Communists ?
Mr. Krause. I have, sir.
Mr. Arens. Did it not ever occur to you that you might be in that
category ?
Mr. Krause. It has occurred to me, but I have been fairly convinced
that I am not.
Mr. Arens. Did you not think you were a Communist dupe when
you passed out the peace petition ?
jMr. Krause. I wouldn't say I was a Communist dupe. I would say
I was deceived by the petition.
Mr. Arens. Do you feel you might have been deceived in some of
your associations, and some of your activities, promoting the meetings
where Paul Robeson was in attendance, and where W. E. DuBois, who
is under indictment, was in attendance ?
Mr. Krause. They weren't in attendance there.
Mr. Arens. Well, whose names appear at least on the leaflets ?
Mr. Krause. These names appear as being Negro representatives,
in one case, the arts, in the case of Paul Robeson, and possibly some
ot her singers' organizations, who were listed in the case of some of the
others, other fields of endeavor, as examples of some people who have
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 175
excelled in same particular fields, as Negroes. These people were not
in attendance at a meeting, they weren't sponsors of the meeting.
May I see that again, sir?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Krause. As I recall, some of them are dead now.
Mr. Arens. Their names appear on that leaflet as ones connected
with the enterprise which you would be sponsoring in passing out
that leaflet ; is that not true ?
Mr. KRi\usE. It is true, sir. Their names are mentioned there.
Mr. Arens. Have you been treated fairly and impartially by us
today ?
Mr. Krause. I have, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any complaint ?
Mr. Krause. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any complaint as to the fact that we are
looking into this general area of possible disloyalty in the Immigra-
tion Service ?
Mr. Krause. None whatever.
Mr. Ajrens. Now, is there anything you want to say on your own —
and say anything you want to, if you please — to this committee at this
time, without restraint.
Mr. Krause. The only thing I have to say is what I have stated
before, that I always have been a completely loyal citizen of the United
States. I have always been loyal to the agency I work for, to my
coworkers in the agency, and to everybody around me.
I have never knowingly associated with, or done anything which
could, by any stretch of the imagination be construed as advancing^
the Communist cause.
Mr. Arens. May I ask you this, without precluding any oppor-
tunity for you to continue any statement you want :
On the basis of the interrogation this morning, do you have any
suspicions in your own mind as to your conduct or associations, any
fears that you may be associated with people who are subversive or
may be unwittingly promoting certain enterprises of the Communists ?
Mr. Krause. Offhand, sir — and it is difficult to answer a question
like that, with everything that has taken place today, I would say
"No." But I certainly will examine very carefully my past, present,,
and future activities.
Mr. AjtENS. Now, have you discussed your testimony here today
with any other person, as to what you proposed to say to this
committee ?
Mr. Krause. No, sir ; I had no idea I would be before this committee.
Mr. Arens. I mean, it took you some time to get from New York
down here ?
Mr. Krause. Yes.
Mr, Arens. You came in company with six persons ?
Mr. Krause. Yes ; all six of us came down together.
Mr. Arens. Did you receive any instructions from officials of the
Immigration and Naturalization Service with respect to your
testimony ?
Mr. Kratjse. Yes.
Mr. Arens. "What were those instructions ?
Mr. Krause. The instructions were to go in and testify and tell
the truth and may the chips fall where they may. That was the sum
176 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
and substance of it. None of us knew before arriving in Washington
that we were to appear before a Senate committee, and no such indi-
cation or information was given to us.
Mr. Arens. Is there anj^thing else you want to say? I want you
to be completely without restraint in expressing yourself.
Mr. Krause. I think I have said what I have to say, the fact that
I certainly believe myself to be a perfectly loyal citizen of the United
States.
Mr. Arens. Is there anything else?
Mr. Krause. I can't think of anything else.
Mr. Arens. We thank you, Mr. Krause.
Mr. Krause. I have one question. In the event I should think of
something I want to say later, would it be j^ossible to come back
and say something ?
Mr. Arens. I understood you wanted to get back right away.
Mr. Krause. That is right. I would like to do that, but maybe
between the time it takes me to get from here to the airport, I may
think of something that I have omitted and I want to say.
Mr. Arens. You mean today you would like to come back ?
Mr. Krause. If necessary ; if I think of something. I don't know,
because, after all, we have spent an hour or two talking here. I want
to think a little bit.
Mr. Arens. We want to afford you every opportunity in the world
to express yourself fully and freely without restraint, Mr. Krause.
1 suggest this : There are other witnesses who are scheduled to appear
today before the committee, and there might be a time element in-
volved, but insofar as possible, we shall be glad to have you reappear,
and if you return to New York City and think of something that you
would like to submit to this committee, I suggest you address a com-
munication to the committee, either setting forth in that communi-
cation the information that you want to submit to the committee, or
(requesting an opportunity to reappear. Is that satisfactory with you ?
Mr. Krause. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. We thank you very much for appearing here today.
Mr. Krause. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Arens. The committee will now recess until 1 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 10 p. m. the hearing was recessed, to recon-
vene at 1 p. m. of the same day.)
•TESTIMONY OF HENRY H. FRIEDLAND, EMPLOYEE, UNITED
STATES IMMIGRATION AND NATURALIZATION SERVICE
(The witness was previously sworn by Senator Ferguson as
follows:)
Senator Ferguson. You do solemnly swear that in the matter now pending
^before this committee you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Friedland. I do.
Mr. Arens. Will you kindly state your full name ?
Mr. Friedland. Henry H. Friedland.
Mr. Arens. You were born in Manchester, England, in December
1901?
Mr. Friedland. Correct.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 177
Mr. Arens. When did you immigrate to the United States ?
Mr. Friedland. In March 1914.
Mr. Arens. You were naturalized in Brooklyn in August 1934 ; is
that right?
Mr. Friedland. That is about the date.
Mr. Arens. What was your first employment after you immigrated
to the United States?
Mr. Friedland. I worked as an office boy or errand boy in some job,
I believe it was a phonograph company, in 1916, about 1916.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly just enumerate the various employ-
ments you had prior to the time you first became employed, as I under-
stand, in 1939, with the Immigration Service?
Mr, Friedland. I don't .suppose it may be too accurate, going by
memory so far back.
Mr. Arens. To the best of your recollection, if you please.
Mr. Friedland. Probably about 1917 I worked in a law office, a
man by the name of Adolph M. Schwarz, at 299 Broadway, as a clerk.
I don't recall, I may have had some small employment jobs until about
1920 or 1921. I worked for a concern named Charles Jacquin & Co.
They were manufacturers of sirups. I worked there until about 1933
or 1934. I am not sure what the dates were, but I worked for the
Polyclinic Hospital laundry in New York, possibly 2 years.
During a period of some unemployment, I did some selling for the
^Electrolux Co., manufacturers of vacuum cleaners, on a commission
basis.
I think that essentially covered the employment prior to 1939, except
-3 months before working for the Government I worked in Albany
for the unemployment insurance division.
Mr. Arens. What was your particular assignment?
Mr. Friedland. Just as a clerk.
Mr. Arens. What precipitated your employment with the Immi-
gration and Naturalization Service in 1939?
Mr. Friedland. I had taken an examination and while I was still
up in Albany an offer for employment as a result of an examination
came in and I accepted it. I went there direct from the job in Albany.
Mr. Arens. What position did you take with the Immigration
Service ?
Mr. Friedland. As a clerk.
Mr. Arens. In what section or unit ?
Mr. Friedland. In the files unit of the national branch at 641 Wash-
ington Street, New York City.
Mr. Arens. Have you been in that unit continuously since you en-
tered the service ?
Mr. Friedland. Essentially, except that there had been a consoli-
dation of the various branches. The immigration section used to be
apart from the naturalization section. I think in September 1943,
they were consolidated into the one room at the building at 70 Colum-
bus Avenue, New York City.
Mr. Arens. Now, you work in the section or unit where the files of
both the Immigration and Naturalization Service were kept?
Mr. Friedland. That is correct, until August 1947 I worked in that
particular unit.
Mr. Arens. Then what happened?
178 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Friedland. I was transferred to the maintenance section at
Ellis Island as a clerk in the office of the chief of the maintenance-
section,
Mr. Arens. Who was your immediate supervisor?
Mr. Friedland. H. L. Boothe, who is chief of the maintenance
section.
Mr. Arens. Wliat is your civil-service status?
Mr. Friedland. Permanent status as a clerk, GS-3.
Mr. Arens. I understand your wife, Sadie K. Friedland, also is
employed by the Service?
Mr. Friedland. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Where is she employed in the Service ?
Mr. Friedland. She is in the nationality section. She has been
there since she started employment, which is approximately 6 years
ago.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Friedland, we want to ask you about your
activities and associations in local 20 of the United Public Workers.
We want you to express yourself in the fullest with reference to those
activities. We understand you are a former president of the branch
in the Immigration Service in New York of the United Public
Workers ?
Mr. Friedland. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. How long have you been associated with local 20?
Mr. Friedland. I don't think I could remember the dates.
Mr. Arens. Approximately.
Mr. Friedland. There have been separate branches and that one
date there was a sort of consolidation of the branches into one local,
possibly 5 or 6 years ago. That is a very rough guess.
Mr. Arens. Would it be your best judgment at this moment that
you have been in local 20 for the last 5 or 6 years ?
Mr. Friedland. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Wliat positions have you held in local 20 ?
Mr. Friedland. I haven't had any positions in local 20 as a local.
Mr, Arens. I should have said in the branch.
Mr. Friedland. At one time I was elected president of the branch.
Mr. Arens. What year was that ? Has it been in the course of the
last 2 or 3 years ?
Mr. Friedland. No ; it is beyond that ; 4 or 5 years ago.
Mr. Arens. Who elected you ?
Mr. Friedland. At a meeting of the membership of the particular
branch.
Mr. Arens. Who to your knowledge in the Immigration Service in
New York are or have been members of local 20 ?
Mr. Friedland. The people who were here today, Ira Krause is still
a member, myself and my wife, and Eleanor Klein.
The other two young ladies who are with us today had been members
at one time. They dropped out anywhere from 2 to 3 years ago. That
is my best recollection.
Mr. Arens. Who solicited you to join, or how did you happen to
join.
Mr. Friedland. Wlien I came to work at 641 Washington Street, we
started work at a very low figure.
Mr. Arens. That was the prior office of the district office of the Im-
migration Service in New York ?
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 179
Mr. Friedland. That is correct. We had worked for a very low
wage of $1,260 per annum, and we had long hours of overtime for
which we were not paid, working conditions were very bad, a great deal
•of speed-up due to shortage of personnel. As a result of that, I saw the
circulars of the union, I don't recall who it was asked me to join, but
I joined some time back.
Mr. Arens. Do you attend the meetings regularly, once a month ?
Mr. Friedland. Not regularly. The meetiiigs are called for once a
month, I believe, except for the summertime. I have missed many
meetings, although I have tried to attend fairly regularly.
Mr. Arens. Now, to your knowledge, who in the employ of the
Immigration Service in New York City are today members of local
20 ? Will you just give us their names ?
Mr. Friedland. The four I mentioned before, myself, my wife, Mrs.
Friedland, Mr. Krause, and Miss Klein. Offhand, I can't recall any-
one else who is a member at the present time.
A number of people have dropped out.
Mr. Arens. To what other organizations do you belong, in addi-
tion to local 20 ?
Mr. Friedland. The Immigration and Naturalization Service
Credit Union. Of course, the Ked Cross. I assume most people are
members of that. I don't think there are any other organizations
that I am a member of.
Mr. Arens. Can you tell us about your activities in passing out
handbills or leaflets of local 20 ?
Mr. Friedland. The union deals mainly in questions of better wages
and working conditions and fights against discrimination in Govern-
ment service. Those are generally the types of leaflets that we have
distributed.
Mr. Arens. How frequently have you distributed these handbills?
Mr. Friedland. Well, it has been rather sporadic. At times there
have been leaflets every 2 or 3 weeks and sometimes not for a couple
of months, depending on the situation, for example.
Mr. Arens. Who gives you the leaflets to distribute, if you please ?
Mr. Friedland. The leaflets are obtained from the local 20 office.
Mr. Arens. Who obtains those ?
Mr. Friedland. Whichever one of us might happen to go to a meet-
ing when the leaflets are ready, will pick them up and bring them down
for distribution by the members.
Mr. Arens. Have you declined to distribute leaflets on the basis of
the contents of the leaflet itself ?
Mr. Friedland. Yes; I have once or twice. I think there have
been some in there that I thought did not pertain exactly or entirely
to Federal employment.
Mr. Arens. Have you confined the leaflets that you distribute to
those leaflets pertaining to Federal employment ?
Mr. Friedland. Practically. I think there may have been a couple
of memos attached to some of them.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Friedland, may I hand you here a series of leaflets,
exhibits 1 to 11, which were identified earlier this morning, and ask
you to look through those and see if there are any of those you can
identifv as leaflets which you distributed?
Mr. Friedland. Shall I mention the ones I can identify ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
180 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Friedland. Omitting the others ?
Mr. Arens. If you please. Identify those which you have distrib-
uted. Identify them by exhibit number, if you please.
Mr. Friedland. Exhibit 6 I may have distributed.
Mr. Arens. Let us pause right there, if you please. In exhibit 6
there is the reference to a blocked-out unit of the exhibit to the free-
Willie McGee rally. Did you have any information respecting the
nature of that rally or the sponsorship of that rally?
Mr. Friedland. I did question that. That is why I sort of hesi-
tated, to know whether I did distribute that one. Somebody at the
union office said that it was a — they call it the United Labor Action
Committee, or something of that nature.
Mr. Arens. Did anybody give you any intimation that it was a
movement that was being sponsored by the Communists?
Mr. Friedland. No. In fact, that is why I questioned it at the
time. I was assured it was the United Labor Action Committee.
Mr. Arens. Who gave you that assurance ?
Mr. Friedland. Somebody at the union office who seemed to know
something about it.
Mr. Arens. Have you yourself been under a loyalty investigation.
Mr. Friedland. I had an interrogatory.
Mr. Arens. When was that?
Mr. Friedland. More than a year ago — I think probably about
January 1950.
Mr. Arens. Since you have had this interrogatory, have you had
any soul searching as to what might possibly be regarded as Com-
munist use of these leaflets to serve their own ends, or that these
leaflets might be Communist-inspired ?
Mr. Friedland. Yes, I have. That is why I say this particular one
I did question when it was offered for distribution.
Mr. Arens. Have you had any suspicions in your own mind with
respect to who might be behind this activity of distributing leaflets?
Mr. Friedland. Which leaflets do you mean? You mean this par-
ticular type?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Friedland. Yes ; that is why I say I questioned that particular
one, because I had heard that the Civil Rights Congress was fight-
ing this case, and that is why
Mr, Arens. Fighting the Willie McGee case ?
Mr. Friedland. Yes. That is why I wanted to make sure it was
not connected in any way with that organization.
Mr. Arens. Have you participated in any of the picketing spon-
sored by local 20?
Mr. Friedland. No.
Mr. Arens. Did you sign the peace petition that was circulated
by Mr. Krause?
Mr. Friedland. No; I did not.
Mr. Arens. What is the Civil Rights Congress?
Mr. Friedland. From what I have read, I believe it is on the At-
torney General's list, that it is considered subversive.
sjs H* V •)( 9 ■P •I*
Mr. Arens. Is there a possibility there might be more than four
people presently members of local 20 who are employed by the Immi-
gration Service?
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 181
Mr. Friedland. Those are the only four I have seen at the meetings.
Mr. Arens. What are your dues?
Mr. Friedland. $1.60 per month, which includes 10 cents for in-
surance.
Mr. Arens. Have you made any inquiry respecting the officers of
local 20 and the key personnel of local 20 to ascertain whether or not
they are possibly disloyal?
Mr. Friedland. I don't know how we could make inquiries. We
know their work, those who have been working for wage increases,
and so forth. At elections they are the ones who are elected because
they have done the hardest work, generally.
Mr. Arens. What committees have you served on in local 20, if
any?
Mr. Friedland. Not in local 20^ although I believe at the time I was
branch chairman of the immigration branch I was automatically
supposed to have been on the executive board of local 20.
Mr. Arens. Who served with you on that board ? Do you recall ?
Mr. Friedland. People from other branches of the Government
service and officers who had been elected from other branches of the
Government service.
Mr. Arens. Was Mildred Schoen a member?
Mr. Friedland. At one time she had been a member.
Mr. Arens. Do you happen to know what occurred in her case or
what happened to her?
Mr. Friedland. I do remember that. I think she received a ques-
tionnaire of some kind, either a questionnaire or charges, I don't
remember which, and that she resigned from the service.
Mr. Arens. I understood you to say, if I am not mistaken, that some
of these leaflets you questioned. Is that true ?
Mr. Friedland. Yes.
Mr. Arens. What was the nature of the leaflets that you ques-
tioned ?
Mr. Friedland. There were some that were not our union leaflets
at all, and we have never distributed anything else except those
issued by our union.
Mr. Arens. Where were these leaflets that were not issued by your
union?
Mr. Friedland. These that I put down on the table there.
Mr. Arens. No; we may be misunderstanding one another. Did
you not say a little while ago that there were some leaflets that your
union had proj^osed that you distribute the contents of which you
questioned?
Mr. Friedland. There was one recently I mentioned, about Willie
McGee, which I thought really was not applicable as direct material
in the Government service, as we fight for better working conditions,
wage increases, and I thought that sort of leaflet should not have
been added.
Mr. Arens. Were there any others of that character, of any char-
acter, on which you had a question in your mind ?
Mr. Friedland. That is all I can recall, where there was anything
extraneous to working conditions on the leaflet, that I can think of.
Mr. Arens. If you did see leaflets, or should see leaflets, that had
material extraneous to the proposition of working conditions and
hours and that type of thing, would you question them ?
182 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Friedland. Yes ; I would, generally.
Mr. Arens. Would you refuse to pass them out?
Mr. Friedland. There have been some ; yes.
Mr. Arens. Wliat are those? That is what I have been trying to
get at. What are those which you refused to pass out besides the
Willie McGee one?
Mr. Friedland. I am pretty sure there may have been one on the
loyalty order. While I thought it had to do with working conditions,
still I felt that was sort of a little outside our agency work, our branch
work.
*******
Mr. Arens. Did you pass out any of these exhibits, exhibit 2 or
exhibit 5 ?
Mr. Friedland. I don't recall those. I know I have read them at
the union office, but I don't recall whether I have distributed those.
Mr. Arens. Did you refuse to distribute them, do you recall ?
Mr. Friedland. It is not compulsory for branches to distribute the
leaflets.
Mr. Arens. That is not the question I asked. Did you refuse to
distribute these?
Mr. Friedland. I really can't recall whether I refused or
whether
Mr. Arens. You just have no recollection of passing them out ; is
that right?
Mr. i^ riedland. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Would you pass these out if they were submitted to you
for distribution by the local ?
Mr. Friedland. I would like to see them worded somewhat dif-
ferently.
Mr. Arens. Would you pass them out if they were distributed to
you for passing out by the local ?
Mr. Friedland. Not in their present form. I think I would rather
not, the way some of those are worded. I would rather see that they
ask for safeguards in the loyalty order.
Mr. Arens. Have you at any time declined to pass out leaflets of this
character, other than the leaflets that you referred to, the Willie McGee
Rally leaflet?
Mr. Friedland. There have been some; I can't recall offhand. I
know there have been some leaflets that were ready for distribution
and I thought they shouldn't
*******
Mr. Arens. Have you ever protested to your associates in local 20,
the contents of any of these leaflets ?
Mr. Friedland. Yes. In discussion I have thought that those things
really should not be in our leaflets.
Mr. Arens. Did you make any inquiry as to who it was that was
inspiring leaflets of this type ?
Mr. Friedland. I don't know whether I can say inspiring. Every-
thing is discussed in the meetings, and there is full discussion. After
the discussion, the voice of the majority decides what actions are to
be taken. If a majority rules in favor of one item, well, that is the
democratic way of running things.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 183
Mr. Arens. Do you accept the decision of the majority if the major-
ity decides they are going to have a leaflet of some particular character
which does not coincide with what your views are on what ought to
be in the leaflet ?
Mr. Friedland. I am trying to see how to express that.
Mr. Arens. What I am trying to say is this : If a leaflet is prepared
which, to your mind is very questionable from the standpoint of its
propaganda content, do you go on and distribute it anyhow, just
because the majority of the group decides it will put it in the leaflet?
Mr. Friedland. Generally not. However, occasionally there is
some question of wording of a leaflet. Where I haven't liked the
wording in it, if it has been the general content of fighting for im-
proved conditions and wages, I have distributed it in some cases.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever have your suspicions aroused that perhaps
somebody of Communist persuasion is working on these leaflets ?
Mr. Friedland. No. It seemed a difference of opinion, but that
never occurred to me because most of them have been on working
conditions.
Mr. Arens. Now, you were up for loyalty investigation about a
year ago, were you not?
Mr. Frii:dland. Yes, just an interrogatory.
Mr. Arens. Now, in the interrogatory, you were interrogated re-
specting these leaflets when you were passing them out?
Mr. Friedland. There was no mention of the leaflets, to my rec-
ollection.
Mr. Arens. You were interrogated respecting your activities in
local 20, were you not ?
Mr. Friedland. This was a written interrogatory. I didn't think
any question was brought up as to what activities; just asked me what
organizations I had been a member of.
Mr. Arens. You had some intimation a year ago, did you not, that
your loyalty had been questioned ?
Mr. Friedland. Yes, in that I had the interrogatories.
Mr. Arens. What did you do since then to do a little soul searching
to ascertain whether or not you might be placing yourself in a posi-
tion where somebody could justifiably criticize you for activities of
questionable loyalty ?
Mr. Friedland. The only activity of any kind that I had partici-
pated in was the union work.
Mr. Arens. Tliat was the only activity you had participated in prior
thereto ?
Mr. Friedland. eYs.
Mr. Arens. So it would not take much deduction to arrive at the
conclusion that the reason wliy you had these interrogatories was be-
cause of your activities in local 20 ; is that not true ?
Mr. Friedland. That is true.
Mr. Arens. What have you done since the interrogatories were
submitted to you a year ago to check up on things, on your activities
in the union ? ■,
Mr. Friedland. As far as activities in the union, they have been
purely work fighting for improved working conditions, and wages.
Mr. Arens. Yes, but there are some of these leaflets that you have
kind of questioned, in your mind?
Mr. Friedland. Yes ; that is why I thought about those things.
Mr. Arens. What have you done besides think about them?
92838 — 52 13
184 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Fkiedland. Well, wherever those questions came up, I thought
it was best not to distribute such a leaflet, if I had any question about
it.
Mr. Arens. Is that the sole and exclusive action you have taken
with respect to your associations and activities in local 20 ?
Mr. Friedland. Well, as far as associations in local 20, they have
been people who have been fighting for better working conditions and
wages, and, you see, when I first came to work for the Government
I think I mentioned earlier of the bad working conditions.
Mr. Arens. You did.
Mr. Friedland. And that union was the one that was fighting for
improved working conditions.
Mr. Arens. Do you read the papers about Communist activities?
Mr. Friedland. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Did it ever occur to you that the Communists use these
issues of working conditions and discrimination, and use such issues
for the purpose of promoting their own ends ?
Mr. Friedland. Well, it could be possible, but in our Government
service, we know what our conditions are, and without knowing what
the Communists may be doing, I can't see where there should be any
connection. It wouldn't be right not to fight for improved condi-
tions just because the Coimnunists might be fighting for improved
conditions.
Mr. Arens. Did it occur to you it might not be right to ally your-
self with Communists in an enterprise in which they are ostensibly
fighting for better conditions but which, in reality, they are using to
further their own ends ?
Mr. Friedland. I am quite sure that there has been no Communist
connection with our union. That I feel quite certain of.
Mr. Arens. What leads you to that conclusion ?
Mr. Friedland. Because at the meetings the only things discussed
have been working conditions, and that is the main reason that they
are fighting for — improved working conditions.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not the United Public Work-
ers has been ejected from the CIO?
Mr. Friedland. Yes ; I heard that.
Mr. Arens. When did you hear that?
Mr. Friedland. Somewhere between 1 and 2 years ago.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any idea what the reason was that the
United Public Workers was ejected from the CIO?
Mr. Friedland. I know that some of the members went down to
Washington at the time they were holding such hearings, and they
were not permitted in the building.
Mr. Arens. Do you not know, as a matter of fact, that the United
Public Workers was ejected from the CIO because it was promoting
the purposes of the Communist Party ? Is that right or not ?
Mr. Friedland. I say it was because the committee that, shall I
say, tried the case, claimed so. So I don't think it actually was so,
though, because I know of the activities that the union did, that I
can't see any connection with Communists, fighting for improved
working conditions.
Mr. Arens. You knew a vear or so ago that the United Public
Workers had been ejected from the CIO because the CIO found out
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 185
that the United Public Workers was promoting the purposes of the
Communist Party ? Did you not know that?
Mr. Friedland. I did know that they claimed they were Communist-
dominated.
Mr. Arens. That is why they ejected them, because in the judgment
of the CIO, the United Public Workers was following the Com-
munist line. Is that not true ?
Mr. Friedland. That was their reason.
Mr. Arens. And yet in the interim you have since that time con-
tinued your affiliation with the United Public Workers. Is that right ?
Mr. Friedland. I would like to explain that.
Mr. Arens. Is that right ? And then you may do your explaining.
Is that right?
Mr. Friedland. Yes. We are local 20, which is a Federal local of
the United Public Workers.
The United Public Workers includes State and county and munic-
ipal branches. It was some time back that there was a consolidation
of the Federal branches and the other, which had some different name,
and that is when it became the United Public Workers.
Well, all I know of the activities is that the activities of our local
20 are fighting for improved working conditions. If there is any such
connection with the national office, I don't know about it.
Mr. Arens. What have you done to ascertain whether or not there
is a connection there ?
Mr. Friedland. All I have seen about it from our national office is
releases about bills in Congress, what action to take when bills come
up, and write CongTessmen, and so forth.
Mr. Arens. What have you done to ascertain the background of the
people who are running the local?
Mr. Friedland. I don't understand what you mean by "back-
ground."
Mr. Arens. Whether or not they are Communist-connected.
Mr. Friedland. All I can know is from their actions in our local
and everything there is done in a democratic way. Any action that
is taken is voted on by the membership, and from what I can see there,
there is nothing that I can imagine could be in anyway Communist-
dominated.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever hear of a Communist dupe? Do you
know what a Communist dupe is? You read the papers, do you not?
Mr. Friedland. I don't quite know what you mean by the term.
Mr. Arens. I think you know what I mean.
Mr. Friedland. I understand the term generally. Do you mean
one who is fooled by them ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Friedland. Oh, I suppose that probably could be used for
any
Mr. Arens. If you knew there were Communists in control of this
local, what would you do about it?
Mr. Friedland. I definitely would not be in it ; absolutely not.
Mr. Arens. Why is it that you feel the CIO, when it ejected this
union because it found it was Communist infiltrated, was in error in
its judgment?
Mr. Friedland. I have been in the union for quite a long time while
it was still CIO and I found no difference in the activities from what
the CIO itself, the CIO program.
186 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Generally it was, I am pretty sure, the program followed by our
union was the same as the CIO.
Mr. Ajrens. Did you ever see leaflets around up there in your head-
quarters issued by other organizations, other than the local ?
Mr. Friedland. No.
Mr. Arens. Did you see any leaflets up there put out by the Ameri-
can Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Friedland. I don't recall having seen any such.
Mr. Arens. Is there anything you would like to say for the record
on your own volition ?
Mr. Friedland. I just like to say that I feel I have been loyal to
the Government in all my work with the Government, and I really
don't see any reason for investigation, aside from perhaps — well, I
don't know whether it is spite work. That isn't exactly the term I
mean.
Mr. Arens. Wliat do you mean, you do not see any reason for the
investigation ? Would it not occur to you that if an individual were
connected in the Immigration Service with an organization which had
been ejected from a great labor organization because it was following
the Communist line, and that individual had been passing out litera-
ture, some of which obviously follows the Communist line, would it not
occur to you that there was a reason for an investigation ?
Mr. Friedland. Well, I always felt that there was — I can't find the
proper word, I don't really mean discrimination against union workers
by some supervisors. That is not the word I mean, but opposition to
emploj^ees because they are union members.
Even before there was any question in the CIO there had been
Mr. Arens. Have you been told all that in your union meetings in
local 20?
Mr. Friedland. No.
Mr. Arens. You thought all that out yourself ?
Mr. Friedland. No, I am going from my own experience.
For example, shortly after I joined the United Public Workers,
when I first went to work, I came across an item, a card in the index,
referring to a file of members of the CIO in that particular agency,
which the assistant district director kept.
I felt that from his attitude, that he was against organization of
Government employees.
Mr. Arens. Have you talked over this testimony with anybody else
before you got down here?
Mr. Friedland. No.
Mr. Arens. "Wlien did you first know you were going to testify here ?
Mr. Friedland. I didn't know I was going to testify. We thought
we were just going to be seen by the Commissioner of Immigration.
Mr. Arens. Did you have in your mind that you were being called
down here because this committee has something like malice or spite
against you ?
Mr. Friedland. Oh, no. I am not referring to the committee here.
I understand now that the committee has doubts as to loyalty.
I can see that, and I think that is proper that such investigation be
carried out.
But I am referring to intimidation by supervisors and such. I was
going back that far to explain why I felt that some officials in the
Immigration Service might have
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 187
Mr. Aeens. Do you feel that you have been treated fairly and im-
partially and courteously since you have been in the presence here of
this subcommittee?
Mr. Friedland. Oh, absolutely, I have been treated fairly.
Mr. Arens. Have we abused you in any manner ?
Mr. Friepland. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have we intimidated you in any manner ?
Mr. Friedland. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have we asked you any questions which, in your judg-
ment, are improper questions ?
Mr. Friedland. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. That is your honest judgment, is it ?
Mr. Friedland. Yes ; it is.
Mr. Arens. Is there anything else you want to say on your own
volition ? And the sky is the limit.
Mr. Friedland. Well, I just like to reiterate my loyalty to the Gov-
ernment. I have worked very hard for the Government during the
time I have worked, as can be shown by the excellent ratings I have
received. I don't know what else there is to say.
Mr. Arens. We want you to be perfectly free to express yourself
in any matter that you want to bring to the attention of the committee.
All right, sir, we thank you very much for appearing here today,
and you will be excused.
Mr. Friedland, you are under instructions not to discuss your testi-
mony here with other witnesses.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. SADIE K. EEIEDLAND
(The witness was previously sworn by Senator Ferguson as
follows:)
Senator Ferguson. You do each of you solemnly swear in the matter now
pending before this committee that you will tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. Fkiedland. I do.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly identify yourself by name ?
Mrs. Friedland. I am Sadie Friedland.
Mr. Arens. And you are the wife of Henry H. Friedland, are you ?
Mrs. Friedland. Yes.
Mr. Arens. You were born in New York City December 8, 1911,
Mrs. Friedland; is that correct?
Mrs. Friedland. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Would you trace very succinctly, if you please, your
employment prior to the time that you became associated with the
Immigration and Naturalization Service in 1940 ?
Mrs. Friedland. Yes.
I worked for the State insurance fund just prior to my entry into
the Federal service, and before that I worked for the Dreyfuss Art
Co. for several years, and before that I worked for a silk house, Ralph
Goldman Co., and that was my first regular job after I got out of
high school.
Mr. Arens. You are presently employed as a clerk-typist in the
Immigration and Naturalization Service ; are you ?
Mrs. Friedland. No, I am a grade GS-4, a legal examiner.
188 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Arens. You were first employed as a clerk-typist, were you
not?
Mrs. Friedland, That is right.
Mr. Arens. How long were you so employed ?
Mrs. Friedland. As clerk-typist?
Mr. Arens. Yes, ma'am.
Mrs. Friedland. I can't give you the specific dates.
Mr. Arens. Just approximately, your best judgment.
Mrs. Friedland. But I think that I was made an examining clerk
a good 5 years ago, I should say, at least.
Mr. Arens. You are now legal examiner in the Nationality Sec-
tion, are you ?
Mrs. Friedland. That is right. The titles were just changed re-
cently, this year.
Mr. Arens. "Would you kindly give us a brief description of your
duties ?
Mrs. Friedland. Yes. I examine applications for naturalization
and reject them if they are not in order, and advise the applicant
what is missing so that he can correct the omissions ; and then when he
submits them again review them again and accept them. And it goes
on for processing,
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Friedland, when did you first become aware of
the fact that you were to testify before this subcommittee ?
Mi'S. Friedland. This morning when we arrived in Mr. Haberton's
office. I believe that is his name.
Mr. Arens. Have you discussed your testimony with any other
person ?
Mrs. Friedland. My testimony. Well, I am making it now ; isn't
that true ?
Mr. Arens. I mean you have not discussed the content of what you
are going to say, have you ?
Mrs. Friedland. No, sir; because I had no idea at all of this.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Friedland, we want to ask you a few questions,
if you please, about your activities in the United Public Workers,
local 20.
Mrs. Friedland, Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. You are a member of local 20, are you not ?
Mrs. Friedland, Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. How long have you been a member ?
Mrs. Friedland. Well, approximately Qi/o years, approximately.
Mr. Arens. Have you held any office in the organization, or a
committee chairmanship ?
Mi-s. Friedland. Yes, I now hold office. I am treasurer, financial
secretary or treasurer, of the branch ; that is, just the small group that
I work with in Immigration and Naturalization Service.
Mr. Arens. How long have you been treasurer ?
Mrs. Friedland. Well, several years.
Mr. Arens. Have you held any other post or assignment either
in the local branch or in local 20 itself ?
Mrs. Friedland, No, sir.
Mr. Arens. To your knowledge, who in the Immigration and Natu-
ralization Service are members of the branch ?
Mrs. Friedland. Well, there is Eleanor Klein, Mr. Krause, Henry
Friedland, myself, and one more person, Irving Tucker.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 189
Mr. Arens. Where does Mr. Tucker work, in what section or unit?
Mrs. Friedland. I am not sure. It may be the Expulsion Section.
Mr. Arens. What are your duties as treasurer of this branch?
Mrs. Friedland. Well, I just turn the dues into the local office.
Ml". Arens. The dues are how much, please ?
Mrs. Friedland. The dues are $1.50 a month.
Mr. Arens. Do you and your husband attend the meetings rather
regularly of the local ?
Mrs. Friedland. We try to,
Mr. Arens. Are they monthly meetings ?
Mrs. Friedland. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. And do you have little meetings of the branch occa-
sionally?
Mrs. Friedland. Yes, we do, of course.
Mr. Arens. About how frequently do you have branch meetings?
Mrs. Friedland. Branch meetings? Well, it is nothing set, not a
definite time. We meet when we feel that we want to.
Mr. Arens. About how frequently, would you say ?
Mrs. Friedland. Well, it could be once every 3 months or — depend-
ing on whether or not we feel we have something to discuss.
Mr. Arens. "V\Tiere do you hold those meetings ?
Mrs. Friedland. Where do we hold them ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mrs. Friedland. Well, generally at the union office.
Mr. Arens. You hold your branch sessions at the union office, do
you?
Mrs. Friedland. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Friedland, did you have information that the
United Public Workers was ejected from the CIO ?
Mrs. Friedland, Yes. I certainly read about it.
Mr. Arens. When was that, about ?
Mrs. Friedland. Well, I guess it was about a year ago. I don't
quite remember.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any information as to why it was ejected ?
Mrs. Friedland. Well, according to the CIO, they just didn't want
to have anything to do with people who they cast doubts upon the
loyalty of the people. They called these people Reds and they said
they wanted to get the Reds out of the CIO. That was their story.
But I certainly don't believe a word of such a statement.
Mr. Arens. Wliy not ?
Mrs. Friedland. Well, I know that when these hearings were called,
the CIO called hearings in Washington and many people from the
union went down, naturally wanting to know the real reason why we
were being ejected. And very few people were permitted to attend
the hearings.
Now, that is a very, very peculiar way to act, and certainly that cast
a great deal of doubt ; it puts a great deal of doubt in my mind as to
the real reasons the CIO had for ousting us from the CIO, because
if they had truth on their side they would have allowed every single
person who came down to the hearings to attend the hearings and to
hear what they had to say.
190 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Arens. You do not have any impression in your mind that
the CIO found that the United Public Workers was promoting the
Communist Party line, do you ?
Mrs, Friedland. No.
Mr. Arens. The finding was based upon the Communist influence in
the United Public Workers ; is not that so ?
Mrs. Friedland. I suppose that may be correct.
Mr. Arens. How many people, to your knowledge, are in the United
Public Workers? What is the total membership?
Mrs. Friedland. I couldn't tell you, sir, I don't know, I don't.
Mr, Arens. What did you do when the United Public Workers was
expelled from the CIO, because of its finding, to look around and
see who some of your associates might be and see what might be the
trend, if any?
Mrs. Friedland. Well, sir, I know who my associates are, the union
members that I work with, and I am sure that they are not Conunu-
nists; that they are just honest, hard-working people, who believe in
making things a little easier for themselves by getting more wages.
Mr. Arens, Do you happen to know Abram Flaxer ?
Mrs, Friedland, I know that he is one of our big officers in the na-
tional union; yes, sir. But I have no dealings with him outside of
that,
Mr. Arens. Did it ever occur to you that pei'haps the direction of
the United Public Workers might be in the hands of the Communists
even though some folks may not be Communist who are in it?
Mrs. Friedland, No, sir. From my experience in the union, when
we go to meetings, we meet at the local office and we just work with
other people like ourselves, other Federal employees, who come to the
union to solve their problems.
And from what I could see, there is no such thing as Communists
and being dominated by anybody because the policy is made by the
people who come to the meetings, who attend meetings, who are there.
We don't get policy from someone else. We make our own policies, as
far as how much money we want to ask Congress for.
And we sit down and we discuss it,
Mr. Arens. Do you pass out these handbills of the local ?
Mrs. Friedland. I pass out some ; yes, sir.
Mr, Arens. Did you ever decline to pass out any of them that were
prepared, on the basis of the content of the handbill?
Mrs. Friedland. I don't recall offhand.
Mr, Arens, You would remember, would you not ?
Mrs. Friedland. I wouldn't say that I have handed out every leaflet
that the local put out.
Mr. Arens. How frequently have j^ou passed out these handbills?
Mrs. Friedland. Quite frequently.
Mr, Arens, What would you say ; once or twice a week, or once or
twice a month ?
Mrs, Friedland, Sometimes twice a week ; sometimes once a month,
sometimes every other week, depending on the issues.
Like, say, when Congress is in session and we want to get the peojile
to write to their Congressmen, then we pass out more leaflets.
Mr, Arens, Where do you get these handbills that you pass out ?
Mrs. Friedland, From the local.
Mr. Arens. I mean who gives them to you ?
SUB"\'ERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 191
Mrs. Friedland. People at the local, who run them off.
Mr. Arens. Do you go down there and get them ?
Mrs. Friedland. Yes, sir ; absolutely.
Mr. Arens. Do you read them before you hand them out?
Mrs. Friedland. Always.
Mr. Arens. Are there any of them that you declined to hand out on
the basis of content?
Mrs. Friedland. "I don't recall, sir ; I may have.
Mr. Arens. You would remember if you ever refused to hand out
any of them on the basis of what the leaflets say, would you not?
Mrs. Friedland. I don't know, sir. I don't know if I would remem-
ber any particular leaflet.
Mr. Arens. You have no recollection, then, of ever declining to
hand out a leaflet on the basis of content ; is that right ?
Mrs. Friedland. I may have declined to hand out a leaflet, but I
don't recall any specific leaflet that I might have declined to hand out.
Mr. Arens. You hand those out to employees going into the Immi-
gration Service, do you?
Mrs. Friedland. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Several hundred of them at a batch ; is that right ?
Mrs. Friedland. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. ~V\Tio else hands out the leaflets besides yourself?
Mrs. Friedland. There is Mr. Friedland and Miss Klein, and Mr.
Krause.
Mr. Arens. Now, may I just hand you some of these leaflets here
that have already been identified. You will notice down in the
corner there is an exhibit number there so that you can refer to them
by exhibit number.
I ask you which of those leaflets, to your recollection, you have
handed out.
Mrs. Friedland. This one I am not sure about.
Mr. Arens. What exhibit is that ?
Mrs. Friedland. Exhibit 5. I am not sure. I don't remember.
I may have.
Mr. Arens. Let us just pause for a moment on exhibit 5, if you
please, Mrs. Friedland.
This is one attacking the loyalty order and makes reference to the
President's loyalty order as being a "police state witch hunt," and that
type of material.
Of course, the exhibit will speak for itself.
Would you pass that out if that were handed to you by your local
for distribution there to the folks coming into the immigration
office?
Mrs. Friedland. I might hand it out.
Mr. Arens. Would you, or would you not ?
Mrs. Friedland. I would.
Mr. Arens. All right, now let us look at the next exhibit. Let us
pause just a moment.
Do you think the President's loyalty order is just a witch hunt?
Mrs. Friedland. The loyalty order in itself, I mean as far as the
Government wanting to get rid of people who work against the Gov-
ernment's interest, that is correct, that should be done.
But the way that things are done, I don't think it really is fair
because a lot of people are getting the wrong impression about their
9283§— 52— 14
192 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
friends and neighbors and coworkers, too, from the way the whole
thing is being handled, from the questions that are asked of these
people who know the people that are being investigated.
Mr. Arens. How would you do it differently than what it is done?
If you were charged with the responsibility of trying to ferret out
disloyal people in the Government, how would you do it?
Mrs. Friedland. Well, I didn't really think too much about how
it should be done, but it seems to me that this isn't the way that it
should be done.
Mr. Arens. Who told you that ?
Mrs. Friedland. Who told me that ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mrs. Friedland. Look, sir, I have a mind of my own. I am not
a child.
Mr. Arens. Was that discussed in your local meeting?
Mrs. Friedland. No.
Mr. Arens. The President's loyalty program was not discussed
in your local meeting ?
Mrs. Friedland, The loyalty order, this thing, these leaflets, in or-
der to be put out, naturally there had to be discussion first, and who-
ever put out the leaflet had discussions before they put out the leaflet ;
that is correct.
But everybody doesn't — I mean the whole union doesn't work on
putting out a leaflet.
Mr. Arens.' Let us look at the next exhibit, then. Are those all
the meetings you attended? Are those all that you remember at-
tending, before we get to the next exhibit, Mrs. Friedland ?
Mrs. Friedland. Yes.
Is this still the same one ? Do you want me to turn to the exhibit
7 now?
Mr. Arens. Please look at the exhibit and identify those that you
gave out.
Mrs. Friedland. That I gave out? I don't say what I did about
exhibit 2, because I don't remember. I don't remember if I handed
it out. I may have.
Mr. Arens. Let me see exhibit 2, if you please.
Mrs. Friedland. Because, you see, I believe that is in 1949. It goes
back a ways.
Mr. Arens. I assume you would hand this one out. It is about the
same nature as the preceding one.
Mrs. Friedland. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Tomorrow morning you would hand that one out to the
employees, too, I assume, if they handed it to you to hand out.
I do not want to lead you now or influence your answer.
Mrs. Friedland. I might.
Mr. Arens. All right. Now let us look at the next one, if you
please.
Mrs. Friedland. No, sir; exhibit 7, definitely not.
The only leaflets that I would consider handing out that I have any
connection with would be the local 20 leaflets of the United Public
Workers.
Exhibit 6, "United Action Can Win $900 Pay Increase"; yes, we
handed this one out. as far as I remember.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 193
Mr. Arens. I want to ask you a question about that. I understood
you to say you handed this out.
Mrs. Kreedland. Yes ; I am pretty sure.
Mr. Arens. Is the call to the "Free Willie McGee" rally on there?
Mrs. Friedland. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall its being on there when you handed it
out?
Mrs. Friedland. Yes, sir.
Mr. AiiENS. Do 3^ou have any information, or did you acquire any
information, with respect to the Willie McGee rally ?
Mrs. Friedland. Only the information that I got at the local union
office.
Mr. Arens. ^Yho told you about the Willie McGee rally ?
Mrs. Friedland. Well, we had discussions on it.
Mr. Arens. What did you know about it in order to discuss it ?
Mrs. Friedland. Before that, nothing, except what we were told at
the union office.
Mr. Arens. Who told you about the Willie McGee case at the union
office ?
Mrs. Friedland. I don't know which one specific person told us;
but when a group gets together there are different people making
comments.
Mr. Arens. Did you have any information that led you to believe
that the Willie McGee rally was a Communist enterprise?
Mrs. Friedland. No, sir; not at all. Definitely not.
Mr. Arens. Were not your suspicions aroused a little bit when you
knew that the United Public Workers were ejected from the CIO
because CIO found them to be promoting the cause of the Communist
Party?
Mrs. Friedland. No, as I said, because of the way the whole thing
was conducted. It seemed to be very underhanded and therefore
untrue, and that is why I feel the way I do.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend the sessions of the CIO in which they
developed the facts?
Mrs. Friedland. I didn't try to, but I know people who did. Many
people tried to, and Mr. Krause tried to and he couldn't get in. He
was one of the many who were not allowed to enter because they did
not want them to hear whatever facts they offered, and that, to my
mind, is underhanded.
Mr. Arens. Did not just the mere fact that they did it, even though
they may have done it, to your way of thinking, perhaps improperly,
arouse a little suspicion in your mind that perhaps there might be
something to it?
Mrs. Friedland. No, because when I was a member of the CIO
many people also called the CIO red. And at that time I didn't be-
lieve it, and now you yourself don't believe it.
So it wasn't true then and whatever they say doesn't have to be
true now. That is the way I see it.
Mr. Arens. Did you not even have a suspicion in your mind that
perhaps there might be something here that ought to be looked into ?
Mrs. Friedland. I feel this way : I belong to the union for certain
reasons. The reasons are: I want more wages so that I could live
better ; I want security ; I want grievances settled, if I have a griev-
ance; better working conditions. These are the reasons why I be-
194 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE Up^A
long to the union, and the people with whom I come in contact at the
union want the same things. Therefore, I have no suspicions or
anything in my mind about these people, because I know that they
are working for the things that I would like to have.
Mr. Arens. You know there is in this country a Communist con-
spiracy, do you not ? You have read about that, have you not ?
Mrs. Friedland. I read about the trial, yes. I have seen headlines.
I have listened to the radio.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any doubt in your mind that there is a
Communist conspiracy in the United States?
Mrs. Friedland. I don't have any doubt in my mind that there are
Communists, and they have ideas, conspiracy, and whatever you
call it.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any doubt in your mind that they try to
take over organizations and use them for their own purposes?
Mrs. Friedland. I might. I don't know.
Mr. Arens. You read the paper, do you not ?
Mrs. Friedland. Yes; I read the papers occasionally. I listen to
the radio, though. I don't have much time to read. Of course, I am
a housewife, too, besides working all day and working hard.
Mr. Arens. All right, let us look at the next exliibit, if you please ?
Mrs. Friedland. Yes.
I think that I handed this one out.
Mr. Arens. Can you identify the exhibit, please?
Mrs. Friedland. Exhibit 8.
Mr. Arens. Would you look at some more exhibits and identify
them, please, and as you identify them, drop them on the table.
Mrs. Friedland. Sure.
Mr. Arens. Let us just pause here for a moment on exhibit 8.
Exhibit 8 is a leaflet which attacks the Mundt bill as a Fascist police-
state bill. Have you ever read the Mundt bill ?
Mrs. Friedland. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. You handed out a leaflet, though, attacking that bill
and handed it out to members of the Immigration Service, did you
not?
Mrs. Friedland. Yes, sir. But I believe that some of the essence
of the bill is right there.
May I see it ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Am I to understand that you did hand out exhibit 8 ?
Mrs. Friedland. Yes ; I am pretty certain I did.
Mr. Arens. What inquiry did you make prior to the time you
handed out exhibit 8 there to the hundreds of employees of the Immi-
gration Service at 70 Columbus Avenue, New York City, to ascer-
tain whether or not the Mundt bill was a police-state bill ? Did you
just take somebody's word for it?
Mrs. Friedland. Well, I read the leaflet and I saw certain things
in it that don't look good to me. So I handed it out.
Mr. Arens. If I wrote a leaflet saying that we ought to shoot the
President tomorrow, would you hand that one out ?
Mrs. Friedland. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Why not ?
Mrs. Friedland. Because I don't believe in doing such things.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 195
Mr. Arens. If I wrote a leaflet or somebody handed you a leaflet
saying the Mundt bill was a good bill, w^ould you hand that out ?
Mrs. Friedland. If it told me w^iat it had in it, and this does.
This mentions specific items of what the Mundt bill does.
Mr. Arens. What are the specific items that are mentioned in there
that are in the bill ?
Mrs. Friedland. It said it would jail strikers, smash unions, and
imprison all who disagree with governmental policy. Things like
that aren't good.
Mr. Arens. Let us get behind that just a minute.
May I see that just a minute, please?
This says the Mundt bill would establish a Fascist police state in
our country. Now, do you just accept that on its face value because
it happens to be on a piece of paper that your local handed to you to
distribute ?
Mrs. Friedland. Well, it is put out by the local and I am sure that
the local must have read the bill before they put out a leaflet on it.
Mr. Arens. So you just accept what they put on these leaflets as
the fact and distribute them ; is that right ?
Mrs. Friedland. Well, I should say yes; ordinarily, yes.
Mr. Arens. Is there any occasion when you did not ?
Mrs. Friedland. I don't remember any.
Mr. Arens. Here it talks about "the Hitler tactic of Red-baiting,
suppression of the rights of the people," and "divide and conquer,"
and all that.
Did not that prompt to your mind some query as to who might have
written this thing?
Mrs. Friedland. No. But there is more there, jailing strikers and
smashing unions.
Mr. Arens. Yes:
The bill spawned by the House Un-American Activities Committee would jail
strikers, smash unions, imprison all who disagree with any governmental policy.
Do you honestly think that this Government here, or a good propor-
tion of the Senators and Congressmen, would get behind legislation
that would imprison all who disagree with any governmental policy.
Mrs. Friedland. Well, that bill was up, but it wasn't passed, sir, as
far as I know. So obviously the answer is "No."
Mr. Arens. It says —
The bill, under the misleading title of the Subversive Activities Control Act.
I believe you will find that the Subversive Activities Control Act
was passed by this Congress.
Mrs. Friedland. But that is specifically speaking of the Mundt
bill ; is that correct ?
Mr. Arens. It speaks of —
The bill under the misleading title of the Subversive Activities Control Act.
Mrs. Friedland. Yes, but it was the Mundt bill that we were speak-
ing out against.
Mr. Arens. Yes, and the Mundt bill is part of the Subversive Activi-
ties Control Act, which is now the law of the land.
I just wonder, Mrs. Friedland, why your suspicions were not a little
bit aroused when you knew that the United Public Workers, of which
you were a member, was ejected from CIO because CIO found it to be
196 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
promoting the purposes of the Communist Party, and when the local
of which you are a member comes out with language asserting that a
particular bill is a police state bill and will imprison all people who
disagree with any governmental policy, why your suspicions were not
a little bit aroused as to the possibility that there might be a little
truth in what the CIO was doing here.
Mrs. Friedland. I will have to repeat — from the very way they
acted, as far as the proceedings went, it didn't seem to me that they
had much truth on their side.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever hear of the old saying, "By their fruits
you shall know them"?
"Actions speak louder than words." Is not this leaflet here a little
evidence of what somebody is thinking and trying to do in this local,
of which you are a member?
Mrs. Friedland. Well, it was against the Mundt bill, and we felt
that there were things in the Mundt bill that we couldn't go along
with.
Mr. Arens. You say "we felt." You did not read the bill, did you?
Mrs. Friedland. I didn't read the bill, but I read the bill before
I gave it out.
Mr. Arens. You read the leaflet of what somebody said the bill
provides.
Mrs. Friedland. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. And you accepted that at face value ?
Mrs. Friedland. Yes.
Mr. Arens. What if the leaflet had come out and said, "Get behind
the Mundt bill, it is a wonderful bill," would you pass ill
Mrs. Friedland. I would have to see first what the Mundt bill con-
sisted of, like in this case.
Mr. Arens. What if the leaflet came out and instead of saying that
the Mundt bill will establish a police state in our country it said the
Mundt bill will bring paradise to our country ; would you then have
passed it out?
Mrs. Friedland. Well, the question seems a little ridiculous on the
face of it.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon.
Mrs. Friedland. I don't quite understand your question there. I
mean no one would bring out a leaflet saying the Mundt bill is going
to bring paradise.
Mr. Arens. Let us just say the Mundt bill is a sound bill, bringing
security and prosperity to the country, would you have passed that?
Mrs. Friedland. Of course, it would necessarily follow they would
give you an idea of what it was, of what it contained. Say if they
promised a 40-hour week or a 35-hour week, and things like that, I
would go along with it.
Mr. Arens. And you would pass it out ?
Mrs. Friedland. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Is it a fair appraisal of your attitude on this passing
out of these leaflets that whatever the leaflets say you accept at face
value; is that right?
Mrs. Friedland. Well, I would have to see that I agree with it
before I would pass it out.
Mr. Arens. How do you know whether you agree with it if you
do not know what the bill provides in the first place ?
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 197
Mrs. Friedland. Just from what the contents of the leaflet con-
tained, I would, just from that.
Mr. Arens. But how do you know but what somebody is lying when
he writes this ?
Mrs. Friedland. I would have no reason to think people are lying,
people that I am associated with in the union. As far as I could see,
they are not liars.
Mr. Arens. Then w^hoever wrote this, that the Mundt bill would
establish a Fascist police state in our country, you think it is true ; is
that right?
Mrs. Friedland. Well, that may be ; I don't know. Maybe the bill
did recommend such things. I don't know.
Mr. Arens. Do you think we have a Fascist police state in this
country ?
Mrs. Friedland. Definitely not.
Mr. Arens. You know, of course, we have the Mundt bill. It is
the law of the land.
Mrs. Friedland. I don't think it was the Mundt bill that was passed,
sir.
Mr. Arens. Let us look at some more exhibits.
Mrs. Friedland. Well, this is exhibit 9 and it looks familiar to
me. I am not positive that I handed it out, but I may have.
This is exhibit 10. I may have passed this one out.
Mr. Arens. At least on both exhibit 9 and exhibit 10 you would
have passed them out, would you not ?
Mrs. Friedland. Yes, sir.
*******
This is exhibit 11. I passed that one out.
This is exhibit 3. I certainly did not pass anything like that out.
This is exhibit 4.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon, but did you say you passed out 11?
Mrs. Friedland. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever hear of Paul Robeson ?
Mrs. Friedland. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. What do you know about Paul Robeson ?
Mrs. Friedland. I know that he is a great singer.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever hear about W. E. DuBois ?
Mrs. Friedland. Yes, sir ; I have heard of him.
Mr. Arens. What do you know about him ?
Mrs. Friedland. Just that he is supposed to be an educator in the
field of Negro history ; something like that. That is about all.
Mr. Arens. Did you hear about him being indicted ?
Mrs. Friedland. Yes, sir; yes, I heard something on the air about
that.
Mr. Arens. You do not believe that, though, do you ?
Mrs. Friedland. I don't know whether to believe it or not, because
I don't know much about DuBois.
Mr. Arens. How about Robeson, do you know anything about his
being a Communist or being connected with the Communists?
Mrs. Friedland. I don't know whether he is or not, sir.
Mr. Arens. You had no hesitancy to pass this one out here that
had Robeson's name on it, and DuBois' name on it.
Mrs. Friedland. That one about the Negro history ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
198 SUBV'ERSrV'E CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mrs. Friedland. Well, these people were not speakers at any of
them.
Mr. Arens. They are alined in some way with the organization,
though, are they not ?
Mrs. Friedland. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. What are their names on there for?
Mrs. Friedland. It says music and arts. These people were listed
under certain things that they are supposed to be well known for.
That is why their names are there.
Mr. Arens. In connection with the organization there that is being
promoted ?
Mrs. Friedland. There was a Negro history exhibit, and they had
pictures of all these various people.
Mr. Arens. And Robeson was tied in with it, was he not?
Mrs. Friedland. His picture, sir, may have been there.
Mr. Arens. And his name is on this leaflet which you passed out.
Mrs. Friedland. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Did you know when you passed out this leaflet about
Robeson's connection with the Communists, his Communist activities?
Mrs. Friedland. I don't know anything about Mr. Robeson's Com-
munist activities. All I know is that he is supposed to be a singer, an
artist.
Mr. Arens. Do you know about his trips to Moscow ?
Mrs. Friedland. No, sir ; I wouldn't know about his trips any place.
I am not interested.
Mr. Arens. Do you think you are being quite frank with this com-
mittee now when you say you had no knowledge of Robeson's Commu-
nist activities when you passed this out ?
Mrs. Friedland. I have no knowledge. I have no way of having
knowledge, sir.
Mr. Arens, Did any intimations ever come your way about Robe-
son's being a Communist ?
Mrs. Friedland. Yes. I think over the radio I have heard some-
thing.
Mr. Arens. Something to the effect that he might have been a Com-
munist ; is that it ?
Mrs. Friedland. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Did it arouse any suspicions in your mind as to what all
this leaflet was about here that you passed out ?
Mrs. Friedland. No; because all we had, if we had anything, was
his picture. We didn't have him come down as a speaker or anything
like that. It may just have been a picture among many other pictures.
Mr. Arens. He was tied in with this Negro history week which you
were promoting by passing out this leaflet ; is not that so ?
Mrs. Friedland. Just as an example that he was well known among
his people,
Mr. Arens. Did you ever attend any of his concerts ?
Mrs. Friedland. Not that I remember, sir ; no.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been to any meetings with DuBois ?
Mrs. Friedland. No, sir.
Mr, Arens. All right, let us look at the next exhibit, please.
Mrs. Friedland. Exhibit 4; no, sir; definitely not.
Exhibit 1, definitely not.
SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 199
Mr. Arens. Now, may I ask you the same question I have asked the
other witnesses, Mrs. Friedland? Is there anything else you would
like to say ? The sky is the limit. You may just express yourself any
way you want to.
Mrs. Friedland. All I can say is that I am a very conscientious and
loyal worker for our Government, and that is all I have to say.
Mr. Arens. Do you think there is anything wrong in just being a
Communist — for a person to be a Communist? Do you think that is
all right? That it is his own business? What is your appraisal of
a person who is a Communist ?
Mrs. Friedland. I don't think much along those lines, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Mildred Schoen ?
Mrs. Friedland. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. What do you know about her?
Mrs. Friedland. Well, Mildred Schoen worked with me in the
Immigration and Naturalization Service. She was a union member.
Mr. Arens. What happened to her ?
Mrs. Friedland. Nothing happened to her. She resigned from the
Service.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any idea what occasioned her resignation?
Mrs. Friedland. I think that there was some question as to her
loyalty, and she resigned.
Mr. Arens. How about Florence Zauderer?
Mrs. Friedland. I don't remember her.
Mr. Arens. Jennie Juliano?
Mrs. Friedland. Jennie Juliano was a member of the union a long
time ago ; that is all I remember about her.
Mr. Arens. Do you have any information as to what occasioned her
departure from the Service?
Mrs. Friedland. No, sir; except that I seem to recall that she was
tired of routine work and she wanted to do something; different. She
was a very energetic person.
Mr. Arens. How about Zerelda Zoff?
Mrs. Friedland. That name doesn't sound familiar.
Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not you were the subject of a
loyalty investigation?
Mrs. Friedland. Yes, sir. I have had a questionnaire, I received
a questionnaire.
Mr. Arens. When was that ?
Mrs. Friedland. I believe it was the latter part of last year.
Mr. Arens. What have you done since that questionnaire to kind
of do a little soul searching to ascertain whether or not you might be
wittingly or unwittingly assisting the Communist movement of this
country ?
Mrs. Friedl^vnd. I don't see how I could possibly be assisting the
Communist movement. I have no connections at all with any other
organizations but the union. I know what the union stands for. I
believe that I should try to better my working conditions, and so
that's all I have to say.
Mr. Arens. Did it ever occur to you that passing out literature
here with Robeson's name on it and DuBois' name on it, attacking the
loyalty program and all that, might somehow have some little con-
nection with Communists, or might be Communist inspired some way
or other?
200 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mrs. Friedland. No, I don't see that at all.
Mr. Arens. You do not see any connection at all ?
Mrs. Friedland. No; I don't see where there should be.
Mr, Arens. All right, thank you very much.
TESTIMONY OF ELEANOR KLEIN
(The witness was previously sworn by Senator Ferguson as fol-
lows:)
Senator Ferguson. You do each of you solemnly swear in the matter now pend-
ing before this committee that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Miss Klein. I do.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly state your full name, please?
Miss Klein. Eleanor Klein.
Mr. Arens. You were sworn this morning, were you. Miss Klein ?
Miss Klein. Yes.
Mr. Arens. You were born in 1918 in Hungary, is that correct?
Miss Klein. Yes.
Mr. Arens. When did you immigrate to the United States ?
Miss Klein. I believe 1921. I was three and a half.
Mr. Arens. You became a citizen in 1928, did you not?
Miss KxEiN. Yes.
Mr. Arens. That was derivative citizenship through the naturaliza-
tion of your father ; is that correct ?
Miss Klein. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Would you briefly and succinctly cover your employ-
ment periods since you became an adult and became employed, prior
to the time that you became associated with the Immigration and
Naturalization Service, which I understand was in 1945 ?
Miss Klein. Yes.
Well, do you want private industry, as well ?
Mr. Arens. If you please. Just a brief resume of your employment.
Miss Klein. I worked in the manufacturing line from 1934 to 1941 ;
1 year in a wash-dress firm, which went bankrupt, and 5 years in a
piece-goods firm.
And in 1941 I began working for the Children's Bureau of the
Department of Labor.
In 1942 I transferred to the Wage and Hour Division of the Depart-
ment of Labor, and in 1945 I transferred to the Office of the — yes, I
think the Office of the Housing Expediter, and I think it was 1947
that I came to work with the Immigration and Naturalization Service.
Mr. Arens. In 1947?
Miss Klein. I think so.
Mr. Arens. Are you sure it was not in 1945 that you transferred
from the Department of Labor ?
Miss Klein. No. I worked for the Office of the Housing Expediter
in between the Wage and Hour Division and the Immigration and
Naturalization Service. It was originally the National Housing
Agency.
Mr. Arens. That was here in Washington, was it, Miss Klein ?
Miss Klein. No ; that was in New York. It was a New York office.
Then the Veterans' Emergency Housing Act was passed and it was
changed to the Office of Housing Expediter.
SUBVERSrV'E CONTROL OF THE UPWA 201
Mr. Arens. What was your first position with the Immigration
and Naturalization Service when you became associated with them?
Miss Klein. A hearing stenographer, with the expulsion section.
Mr. Arens. How long were you in that particular capacity ?
Miss Ki^iN. Until January of this year.
Mr. Arens. Then what happened ?
Miss Klein. I am a hearing stenographer with the noncompulsory
hearing section, which is a similar job.
Mr. Arens. What is your civil-service rating, if you have a civil-
service rating ?
Miss Klein. GS-^.
Mr. Arens. Do you have a permanent status ?
Miss Klein. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Are you a member of local 20 of the United Public
Workers ?
Miss Klein. Yes ?
Mr. Arens. When did you join that organization?
Miss Klein. I don't remember exactly. It was 1943, 1 think.
Mr. Arens. That was prior to the time that you became associated
with the Immigration Service, then ; is that right ?
Miss Klein, Yes. I don't think it was local 20 then. I don't
remember.
Mr. Arens. But you were in the United Public Workers prior to
to that time, were you ?
Miss Klein. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Have you been continuously in the United Public
Workers since that time ?
Miss Klein. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Have you held any offices or committee chairmanships
or anything of that character ?
Miss Klein. No. I am just a member.
Mr. Arens. Who solicited you to join, do you recall?
Miss Klein. No. I don't particularly think I was solicited.
There were many people who were union members and I just joined.
Mr. Arens. Who all in the Immigration Service in New York are
members of the United Public Workers, Local 20 ?
Miss Klein. In local 20?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Miss Klein. I wouldn't know. Oh, you mean the Immigration
Service.
Mr. Arens. Yes, ma'am.
Miss Klein. Ira Krause, Henry Friedland, and Mrs. Friedland.
That is all I know, other than myself.
Mr. Arens. How about Mr. Tucker?
Miss Klein. Oh, yes ; I am sorry, I forgot him. I completely did.
Mr. Arens. Do you attend meetings regularly of the United Public
Workers ?
Miss Klein. Not regularly, but I attend meetings.
Mr. Arens. How frequently do you attend meetings ?
Miss Klein. Well, they have meetings approximately once a month,
and I try to attend them.
Mr. Arens. Do you attend them with some degree of regularity ?
Miss Klein. Yes.
202 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Arens. Are you also a member of the branch in the Immigra-
tion Service of the United Public Workers ?
Miss Klein. Yes.
Mr. Arens, Who is president of that branch ?
Miss Klein. Mr. Krause.
Mr. Arens. Have you had occasion to distribute leaflets of the
United Public Workers in front of the building there at 70 Columbus
Avenue ?
Miss Klein. Yes; I have.
Mr. Arens. How frequently have you done that?
Miss Klein. I don't know how frequently. Sometimes it has been
1 and 2 weeks; sometimes a longer stretch than that. Sometimes
1 week in succession.
Mr. Arens. Where do you get those leaflets ?
Miss Klein. From the local 20 office.
Mr. Arens. Do you go and get them yourself, or does someone else
go and get them? Or how do you get them in your custody for
distribution?
Miss Klein. Well, I have picked them up, and so have the other
members.
Mr. Arens. Who gives them to you there at the local headquarters ?
Miss Klein. They are prepared by committees at the local, so that
we know they have a leaflet machine, and we pick them up.
Mr. Arens. You just go down every week or so, or somebody from
the branch goes there every week or so and just picks up the leaflets
for distribution; is that right?
jVIiss Klein. Either that, or I call up, or they call, or something like
that.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever refused to distribute any of the leaflets ?
Miss Klein. Yes.
Mr. Arens. What leaflets have you refused to distribute?
Miss Klein. Well, if I didn't feel they particularly applied to the
immigration problems, I didn't want to.
Mr. Arens. Just how frequently has that occurred, that you refused
to distribute the leaflets ?
Miss Klein. I don't know.
Mr. Arens. Would it be perhaps once or twice in your experience
at Immigration?
Miss Klein. Perhaps.
Mr. Arens. Would it be as much as three or four times, in your
opinion ?
Miss Klein. I don't remember.
Mr. Arens. Would it be as many as a half a dozen times that you
refused ?
Miss Klein. I don't remember. I mean I haven't paid much
attention.
Mr. Arens. What would be the content of these leaflets for which
you refused to distribute ?
Miss Klein. Well, if it applied strictly to another branch, prob-
lems of another branch, I wouldn't see any necessity of distributing
them in front of the Immigration Service.
Mr. Arens. Did you have conversation with Mr. Krause after he
testified this morning?
teUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 203
Miss Klein. No. He mentioned that you asked about leaflets, but
I didn't have a conversation with him. He called for plane reserva-
tions and rushed off. He didn't eat with us.
Mr. Arens. Now, may I ask you if you have ever participated in
any of the picket activities of the United Public Worker^ ?
Miss Klein, Which picket activities ?
Mr. Arens. Any picket activities.
Miss Klein. I don't remember.
Mr. Arens. Do you say that you have not participated in them, or
you just do not remember? Or you might have? What is your best
recollection ?
Miss Klein. Do you have any particular picket
Mr. Arens. Did you by any chance participate in a picket line in
front of Gimbel's store at one time?
Miss Klein. No.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever participate in any of the demonstrations
of the United Public Workers ?
Miss Klein. Which demonstrations do you refer to?
Mr. Arens. Rallies of the kind ?
Miss Klein. Well, they have had wage rallies that I have attended.
Mr. Arens. Where were those?
Miss Klein. In the high-school gym. They haven't had one of
those in a long time, but I have attended them.
Mr. Arens. Have you attended any general meetings of the United
Public Workers, other than the business meetings at the headquarters?
Miss Klein. No. I don't think so.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever learn that the United Public Workers
was expelled from the CIO?
Miss Klein. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Did you have any idea why they were expelled?
Miss Klein. Well, not too clearly. I know that a few people from
local 20 tried to attend the hearings and they were not permitted.
Mr. Arens. Were they expelled because they didn't like the color
of their eyes, or the color of their hair? What was the reason why
they were expelled, do you have any idea ?
Miss Klein. I am not too familiar with national office policy and
with the CIO policy.
Mr. Arens. You know, as a matter of fact, do you not, that the
CIO expelled the United Public Workers because the CIO found the
United Public Workers was promoting the purposes of the Commu-
nist Party ?
Miss Klein. Well, the people that I know at local 20 do not seem
to be Communists to me.
Mr. Arens. I did not ask you that. Did you know whether or not
the CIO expelled the United Public Workers because the CIO found
the United Public Workers was engaged in the promotion of the Com-
munist Party line? You knew that, did you not?
Miss Klein. Well, the fact that they refused to allow some people
to enter the hearings made me doubt whether that was true.
Mr. Arens. That is not the question I asked you. You knew, did
you not, that the United Public Workers was expelled from the CIO
because the CIO found, in its own judgment, that the United Public
Workers was following the Communist line ?
Miss Klein. No ; I don't remember their ever saying it was Com-
munist-controlled.
204 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
They might have said that their policies or some of the issues
that
Mr. Arens. You knew the Communist question was involved in the
expulsion of the United Public Workers from CIO, did you not ?
Miss Klein. To some extent, but I didn't know that they said the
United Public Workers was Communist-controlled.
Mr. Arens. But you knew there was a Communist issue in the
expulsion of United Public Workers from CIO, did you not?
Miss Klein. Yes.
Mr. Arens. You knew that a few minutes ago when I asked you
the question, did you not?
Miss Klein. Well, I guess I didn't understand it completely.
Mr. Arens. Were you under loyalty investigation at any time by
the Government?
Miss Klein. I was sent a questionnaire.
Mr. Arens. When was that ?
Miss Klein. Last fall, and I have been sent a letter of clearance
by the Department of Justice Loyalty Board.
Mr. Arens. Now, I should like to present to you, Miss Klein, a
series of exhibits whicli have thus far been introduced in the record,
and you w^ll observe, if you please, at the bottom of each one is an
exhibit number.
I ask you to glance at those and tell us which of those exhibits you
actually passed out.
Miss IvjLEiN. I think these are the only two that seem familiar
to me.
Mr. Arens. Those are exhibit 6 and exhibit 11.
Would you say you had passed those out?
Miss IQj:in. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Let us refer to exhibit 6. Exhibit 6, among other things,
has this call to the "Free Willie McGee' rally ; is that correct 1
Miss Klein. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Did you have any information at the time you passed it
out that that Willie McGee rally was a Communist-inspired affair?
Miss Klein. No ; I did not know.
Mr. Arens. Did you make any inquiry to ascertain what the rally
was all about?
Miss Klein. I just knew it was to protest his being executed.
Mr. Arens. Where did you get your information about that ?
Miss Kjlein. From the union.
Mr. Arens. Wlio in the union told you that?
Miss Klein. They have an antidiscrimination committee.
Mr. Arens. Wlio is chairman of it ?
Miss Klein. Ivan Nieman.
Mr. Arens. Did you bother to ascertain what the facts were prior
to the time you distributed that leaflet with respect to the Willie Mc-
Gee rally?
Miss Klein. Other than that it was to protest his execution ; no.
Mr. Arens. Now, may I invite your attention here to this exhibit 5,
which I understand you say you have passed out, which describes the
Executive loyalty order as an order for "a witch hunt to stifle all
freedom of speech, thought, and initiative."
Is that your appraisal of the loyalty program ?
Miss Klein. Well, you mean the Executive order ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, ma'am.
SUB\ERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA 205
Miss Klein, I feel that if somebody anonymously made the com-
plaint of somebody who was perfectly innocent, this innocent person
may be subjected to FBI investigation, and embarrassed in front of
their neighbors innocently and their reputation damaged, and that,
will, their future careers have been greatly jeopardized because of that,
and I think that is rather harsh.
Mr. Arens. Did you concur with the sentiments expressed here on
this leaflet which you passed out?
Miss Klein. To that extent — that it can harm the innocent Federal
worker.
Mr. Arens. Do you feel that the Executive order inquiring as to
loyalty of employees in the Federal Government is an order for a
witch hunt to stifle all freedom of speech, thought, and initiative?
Miss IO.EIN. Well, in that people will be afraid to judge current
events freely because
Mr. Arens. Is it your thought that you ought not to have a loyalty
program ?
Miss Klein. No ; I think there should be.
Mr. Arens. Did it ever occur to you that some of this material
which you were handing out might be Communist-inspired ?
Miss Klein. No. The leaflets that were handled at local 20 were
not Communist-inspired.
Mr, Arens. How do you know they were not?
Miss Klein. It never occurred to me that they were.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever hand out any after the United Public
Workers was expelled from CIO because it was a Communist organ-
ization or Communist influenced ?
Miss Klein, Did I ever hand out any leaflets after that?
Mr, Arens. Yes.
Miss Klein. I have handed out leaflets. But do you mean did I
Mr. Arens. Any leaflets, of any character.
Miss Klein. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Did you have any kind of soul searching or suspicions
that there might be some tie-up there with the Communists?
Miss Klein. No.
Mr. Arens. How does it happen you did not have tiny suspicion
that there might be a little something in what the CIO found when
they expelled the United Public Workers ?
Miss I^EiN. The only people that I see from the United Public
Workers are the people in local 20, and I have no reason to believe
that they are Communists, or that there was any Communist activity.
I feel like they are trustworthy people.
Mr. Arens. Did you have any suspicions, on the basis of what
appeared in some of these leaflets, that Communists might have their
finger in the pie?
Miss Klein. No.
Mr. Arens. If that leaflet there, exhibit No. 8, were handed to you
as part of the stack of material to be distributed, would you do it?
Would you distribute it there in front of the Immigration office?
Miss Klein. Well, I would certainly want to discuss it with the
other members of the Immigration branch before I would, to see if
they wanted to distribute it.
206 SUBVERSIVE CONTROL OF THE UPWA
Mr. Arens. What would make you a little hesitant to the extent
that you would want to discuss it a little bit before you passed it out ?
Miss Klein", Well, they might not want to. I feel that if it came
from local 20 their intentions were sincere, but I would still want to
discuss it with the others.
Mr. Arens. What other organizations are you a member of, other
tlian local 20?
/Miss Klein. Presently I am not a member of any other organiza-
tion.
Mr. Arens. What other organizations have you been a member of ?
Miss Klein. Of the YWHA and the YWCA.
Mr. Arens. What do you think about this leaflet, exhibit No. 7?
I understand that you have not asserted or stated that you had passed
that out, or that you know anything about it. I just want to get your
opinion on that leaflet.
Miss Klein. I really don't know anything about these people. I
have no opinion of that.
Mr. Arens. Is there anything you care to say on your own volition,
Miss Klein?
Miss Klein. No.
Mr. Arens. Have you been in any way intimidated or abused here
by the committee, treated in any way discourteously ?
Miss Klein. No.
Mr. Arens. Thank you very much.
X
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