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KRKOW1TZ CNVCLOPK GO-. K. O., HO.
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
Sooitg fcg lEmtl ILubtof
BISMARCK
ON MEDITERRANEAN SHORES
LINCOLN
SCHUEMANN
GIFTS OF LIFE
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
J
t*\ n ^
B. Mussolini to Emil Ludwig
in memory of the conversations at the Palazzo Venezia
during March and April, 1932 Anno X
TALKS WITH
MUSSOLINI
BY EMIL
LUDWIG
Translated from the German by
EDEN *nf CEDAR PAUL
WITH ILLUSTRATIONS
LITTLE, BROWN, AND COMPANY
BOSTON 1933
GESPRACHE MIT EMIL LUDWIG
First published in Germany in 1932
Copyright,
BY PAUL ZSOLNAY VERLAG, A. G. BERLIN, WIEN, LEIPZIG
Copyright, 1933,
BY LITTLE, BROWN, AND COMPANY
All rights reserved
Published January, 1933
PRINTED IN THE tTNITBD STATES OP AMERICA
To act is easy, but to think is difficult; and
to guide our actions by thought is irksome.
WILHELM MEISTER
CONTENTS
INTRODUCTION 3
PART ONE
The Training of a Ruler
THE SCHOOL OF POVERTY 35
THE SCHOOL OF THE SOLDIER AND THE
JOURNALIST 41
THE SCHOOL OF HISTORY 51
PART TWO
Metamorphoses
SOCIALISM AND NATIONALISM 65
CAUSES OF THE WAR 77
ON THE ROAD TO POWER 87
PART THREE
The Problems of Power
THE MANAGEMENT OF MEN 99
INFLUENCING THE MASSES 115
THE DANGERS OF DICTATORSHIP 129
vii
CONTENTS
PART FOUR
The Regions of Power
EUROPE 141
FOREIGN LANDS 149
HOME DEVELOPMENT 165
ROME AND THE CHURCH 175
PART FIVE
Genius and Character
ACTION AND REFLECTION 185
PRIDE AND ACTION 199
ART 211
LONELINESS AND DESTINY 221
INTRODUCTION
INTRODUCTION
DOCUMENTATION
J_ HE following conversations took place in the
Palazzo di Venezia at Rome, being held almost daily
for an hour at a time between March 23 and April
4, 1932, both dates inclusive. We talked Italian and
each conversation was recorded by me in German
as soon as it was finished. Only a few sentences from
earlier conversations have been introduced into this
book. The German manuscript was submitted to
Mussolini, who checked the passages in which his
own utterances were recorded.
No material other than the before-mentioned has
been incorporated, but I have to acknowledge my
indebtedness to Margherita Sarf atti for a good many
hints conveyed to me in her biography. I have made
no use of the numberless anecdotes current in
Rome; and I have ignored the reports of Mussolini's
collaborators, informative though these are. In a
word, the talks consist of what actually passed in
conversation between Mussolini and myself.
3
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
CONCERNING POLITICAL PARTIES
Mistrust of the Dictator had been active in me
for five years. Many of my Italian friends were hos-
tile to his regime. Whenever I visited Italy I noted
the omnipresence of uniforms, flags, and emblems
whose sun was setting in Germany, though when I
looked eastward they seemed to be dawning once
again with terrific speed.
Three circumstances combined to modify my
outlook. First of all, the foundations of "democ-
racy" and "parliamentarism" are crumbling. Inter-
mediate types are manifesting themselves; the tradi-
tional forms of political life have been undermined;
there is a scarcity of men of mark. Secondly, both
in Moscow and in Rome, I perceived that very
remarkable things were being achieved upon the
material plane, with the result that I came to recog-
nise the constructive side of these two dictatorships.
In the third place, psychological considerations led
me to assume that the Roman statesman, notwith-
standing the bellicose tenor of many of his speeches,
was probably far from inclined to cherish plans of
war.
But my own observations of Mussolini's personal-
ity had an even stronger effect upon my mind than
4
INTRODUCTION
the foregoing considerations. As soon as I had been
led (so I believed) to recognise in him certain traits
which reminded me of Nietzsche's teachings, the
man seemed to become detached from his movement
and I began to regard him as a phenomenon apart,
as is my custom with men who play a part in history.
The smile of practical politicians disturbs me as
little as the animus of partisans in my own immedi-
ate circle. To me a man's most insignificant charac-
ter trait is more important than the longest of his
speeches; and when I am forming a judgment con-
cerning an omnipotent statesman, every such trait
assists me to forecast his actions. Politics of the day
and party programs, the two forms in which un-
imaginative men contemplate the present, are of
little interest to me. I have never belonged to any
political party, and the only such party of which
I could become a member would be an anti-war
party, if such a party existed. The events of the last
decade have convinced me that no system is abso-
lutely the best, but that different nations at different
times need different systems of government. Since
I am before all an individualist, I could never have
become a Fascist; and yet I do not fail to recognise
that the Fascist movement has done great things
for Italy. Transplanted to Germany, on the other
5
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
hand, I think Fascism would be likely to prove dis-
astrous, for reasons that will be touched upon in
Part Four of these conversations. Besides, on the
German stage there is no star performer competent
to play the part of Fascist leader.
It was easier for me to be an unbiased observer of
Italian affairs because I was a foreigner. Had I been
a French writer in the days of Napoleon, I should
probably have stood aloof like Chateaubriand,
whereas in those days as a German I should, like
Goethe, have been filled with admiration for the
Emperor. In like manner, Mussolini's figure im-
presses and attracts me, independently of party con-
siderations, and regardless of the conflicting facts
that, while declaring himself an opponent of the
Treaty of Versailles he has Italianised southern Ty-
rol. The German Fascists find themselves in a
dilemma when contemplating these inconsistencies;
but my withers are unwrung, for I am content with
the artistic observation of a remarkable personality.
OUR FIRST MEETING
It became plain to me at our first encounter that
Mussolini's personality was an extremely remark-
able one. In the spring of 1929, 1 made advances to
him at the time when Italian capitalists began to
6
INTRODUCTION
regard him with disfavour and when his foreign pol-
icy became less provocative than before. During
March of that year I had two conversations with
him and subsequently I saw him again. On each
occasion I was forearmed and turned the discussion
towards the two questions concerning which we
were decisively at odds, namely liberty and Fascism.
In these interviews there speedily became manifest
the cleavage between Fascist orthodoxy and the
views of the founder of the faith a cleavage
which is characteristic of every great movement.
Furthermore, I was strengthened in the conviction
derived from previous experiences that in historical
analysis more stress must be laid on the spoken word
than on the written. In conversation a man discloses
himself more freely than on paper with a pen, espe-
cially when he is as little inclined to pose as Musso-
lini for in this respect the photographers ought
to have uneasy consciences because they have sent
forth a caricature into the world.
Already in these first interviews, I was less con-
cerned to discover what Italy thought of its leader
and what the leader's attitude was towards the Ital-
ians than to ascertain what Europe had to expect
from Mussolini, who is wholly irresponsible, and
therefore the most powerful man living in the world
7
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
to-day. Was he going to be a source o unrest or
predominantly a constructive factor? He had been
a disciple of Nietzsche, had been an anarchist and a
revolutionist. Would his demon continue to impel
him along the path he had entered in youth? On the
other hand, having risen to power, would it be his
main object to consolidate that power for personal
ends? Was he likely to spiritualise Nietzsche's doc-
trines or to use them as a means for self -inflation?
Out of these conversations upon the science and
art of government originated a design to elaborate
them systematically, to develop methodically what
had been primarily a free interchange of ideas. The
balloon drifting hither and thither at the mercy of
the winds was to become an airplane steering a defi-
nite course. At the same time, its flight was to be
lofty and unconstrained. No secretary was present
to take notes; no demand was made for the revision
of a manuscript report; it was all a matter of per-
sonal confidence.
SETTING OF THE CONVERSATIONS
The Palazzo di Venezia is in the great square
(Piazza di Venezia) in the middle of Rome, at the
foot of the Capitoline Hill. Built of yellowish-
brown stone, resembling a medieval fortress with a
8
INTRODUCTION
squat tower, the massive structure stands to the
right of a huge modern monument in white marble,
which is out of keeping with its surroundings and
will need a century or more to acquire an incrusta-
tion which will make it tolerably harmonious. The
palace, five centuries old, has passed through many
hands. Built by the popes, in the seventeenth cen-
tury it was ceded to the republic of Venice, from
which in due course it was taken over by the imperial
house of Austria. A hundred years later, in 1915,
the kingdom of Italy took it back from the Habs-
burgs. Thus popes, kings, and condottieri have
successively ruled in this palace, which in massive-
ness, size, and the thickness of its walls probably
excels every other palace in Rome. Beyond question
as regards the spaciousness of its halls it transcends
them all.
The great folding doors stand open day and night,
but in front of them two militiamen are on guard,
and there is a tall porter in a silver-laced uniform
to ask your business when you wish to enter. Still,
it is easy enough to gain admittance, seeing that in
the mezzanine there is an archaeological library for
which a reader's ticket can readily be procured. A
man who made an attempt on Mussolini's life was
furnished with such a card. In tije evenings I saw
9
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
a great many young men at work consulting the
catalogues. Upon the entresol there is an iron gate
to bar the staircase, but this was not always closed.
The Puce spends about ten hours a day in these
headquarters of his, and it certainly cannot be said
that lie shuts himself away from the common herd
after the manner of kings.
On the first floor there are half a dozen rooms,
large and small, which have been tastefully refur-
nished. The floors are tiled as of old. Above are heavy
beams, ancient and grimy. As in every Roman pal-
ace, the windows with their stone window seats
are the finest features of the interior. The vast halls
are empty, with nothing more than a ponderous
table of ancient date occupying the middle of each,
and chairs which no one uses ranged round the walls.
On these latter, distempered in orange or dull'
blue, hang pictures: Madonnas, portraits, land-
scapes by Veronese and Mainardi. Here and there
are frescoes which may or may not be the work of
Raphael.
There are glass-fronted cupboards, too, lighted
from within, containing precious majolicas dating
back to the thirteenth century, bejewelled images of
the Blessed Virgin, priestly vestments, lace, and
carven figures of the saints. A Byzantine chest made
10
INTRODUCTION
of ivory is said to be more than a thousand years old.
As one looks at the smoked glassware from Murano,
at greenish-gold bowls and goblets, and one's eye
turns then to measure the thickness of the walls as
displayed in the window recesses, one cannot but
think of the gaily clad women whom the lords of
this fortress, masters of many halberds and many
spears, used to capture and cage within it until,
perhaps, wearying of the splendid prison, they took
vengeance by poisoning the condottieri who had
carried them off. Weapons and armour, likewise, are
part of the furnishing of this old-world palace:
headless knights menacing of aspect, figures having
a greyish-blue sheen like that of the sky just before
a thunderstorm. In front of these empty shells is a
huge chest containing swords and daggers; and be-
' side the huge weapons with which bears were hunted
lies the richly chased sword of justice.
If the visitor is to be admitted to the presence,
the chief among the attendants ushers him to the
great inner doors. This man ranks as a "cavaliere"
and is a figure of comic opera. But when the doors
are flung open it is to disclose that which makes us
feel we are contemplating a landscape rather than
the interior of a room.
This place in which Mussolini has carried on his
11
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
work for several years now, its^windows giving on
the Piazza di Venezia, is known as the Hall of the
Mappa Mundi, for it was here that in former days
the first of all terrestrial globes was installed. The
room was built in the middle of the fifteenth cen-
tury and, having Become ruinous, has recently been
restored. It is m.Qe than-sixty feet long, forty feet
wide, and forty Jfeet_ .high- There are two doors in
the party wall leading into the anteroom, and from
this one door opens into the great hall. Here we
see a long wall interrupted by three gigantic win-
dows with stone , window seats beneath, while the
opposite wall is punctuated by painted columns.
The place seems to be absolutely empty, containing *
neither tables nor chairs, not even chairs placed
along the walls; in the corners are tall torches with
gilded flames, nowadays the standards for electric
lights. In the far distance, so far away that we feel
the need for a field glass, we see in silhouette the face
of a man seated at a table, writing.
Entering this great hall, the first thing that strikes
us is the richly decorated ceiling which bears in re-
lief the lion of Saint Mark and the she- wolf of Rome.
Halfway along the wall facing the windows are
displayed the arms of the three popes who built the
palace. Advancing across the renovated flooring, we
12
INTRODUCTION
come, in the centre of the room, to a nearly life-sized
mosaic of nude women and children, bearing fruit;
this is the Abundanzia, and I always made a detour
k to avoid treading on it. At length, in the remotest
"""*lHi
Corner, we reached*a table about twelve feet long,
standing upon a carpet and flanked by two Savona-
rola chairs. lose by these, against the wall, stands a
tall reading desk on which lies a modern atlas. This
was open to show the map of Europe. Adjoining the
other end of the table is an enormous fireplace, cold
as the marble which encompasses it.
Behind the table, facing the windows, sits Musso-
lini; rising, however, and advancing to meet a visitor
from abroad. His writing table is in the meticulous
.order of the strenuous worker. Since he clears up
everything from day to day and tolerates no rem-
nants, one small portfolio suffices to hold everything
that relates to current affairs. Behind him, on an
occasional table, are books actually in use, and we
notice three telephones. The table is plain and un-
adorned, bearing no more than a bronze lion and
writing materials arranged with precision. The im-
pression produced by the worktable, like the impres-
sion produced by the great hall, is that of composure
the composure of a man whose experiences have
been multifarious.
13
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
THE CONVERSATIONS
Our conversations took place evening after eve-
ning across this table. The reader must understand
that their fundamental theme is not so much the
burning questions we discussed as the character of
Mussolini which, in its manifold facets, I was en-
deavouring to grasp. The following pages, therefore,
are not Platonic dialogues in which this subject or
that is exhaustively dealt with. Nevertheless, the
nature of our talks is based upon the polarity of
the interlocutors. I had devoted much time and
thought to the question how I could best confront
my own views with his, how I could most effectively
induce him to speak frankly and freely while avoid-
ing the danger of entering into one of those pon-
derous "disputations" which are fatal to conversa-
tion in any true sense of the term. He knew that
upon two matters of primary importance I was
radically opposed to him and that there was no likeli-
hood of my coming over into his camp; but this very
fact may have been a stimulus. Furthermore, I was
inclined to stress my opposition in the hope of mak-
ing him more emphatic and lucid in his rejoinders.
Yet I had to avoid a contradictiousness which would
have made our conversations interminable; and,
14
INTRODUCTION
since he had put no restriction upon the number of
our interviews, I felt it incumbent upon me to avoid
wasting his time. Besides, I find it more congenial
to leave my readers untrammelled. Let each come
to his own conclusion regarding the questions
mooted in this book a conclusion which will vary
in accordance with his general principles and will
lead perhaps to one side in one topic and to another
side in another. The result of this method of ap-
proach is that in my talks with Mussolini neither
of us will be found "to get the best of it" without
qualification. Problems are formulated, not solved.
For me, the dictator of Italy has become a histori-
cal figure, and, since he let me follow my own bent,
I questioned him as I have been accustomed to ques-
tion other historical figures. In this matter I can
make no difference between the living and the dead.
When I shook hands with Edison it was with the
feeling "This is Archimedes!" With Napoleon I
had, in imagination, held a hundred long conversa-
tions before I took up my pen to describe the Em-
peror. In Mussolini's case, certainly, the antithesis
was more conspicuous. We might well regard these
conversations as a dialogue between a fully armed
Reason of State and a Pacifist Individualism. The
contrasts between us are extensive, and even his edu-
15
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
cation has been very different from mine. Our point
of contact is Nietzsche, whose name cropped up
more often in the actual talks than in their con-
densed reproduction.
"What I was studying was the man's character in
the widest sense of the term. Since, however, I have
had no private documents available for the purposes
of this study, and since in actual conversation with
a living man I could learn far less of his intimate
life than I could learn of the intimate life of Bis-
marck or of Lincoln by the perusal of their letters,
I have been restricted to such an impressionist pic-
ture as can be achieved on the basis of talks concern-
ing purely abstract matters. This book is an attempt
at indirect portraiture. One who regards as trifling
the question what kind of music a statesman loves
has failed to understand the art of mental analysis,
for in truth such matters exert a decisive influence
upon action. Owing to the world's ignorance of
Bismarck's inner life, there had become current a
distorted picture of him as a swashbuckling cav-
alry officer, and it was this picture which I endeav-
oured to replace by a new one. In Mussolini's case
I am trying to do the same thing while the man yet
lives, in order to substitute a new picture for the
views and the trends of the contemporary world.
16
INTRODUCTION
In my undertaking I had to confine myself to the
man of fifty or thereabouts who sat opposite me.
If, occasionally, I delved into his past, this was not
done in order to disclose the contradictions which
must necessarily manifest themselves between the
ages of forty and fifty in a person who is playing a
notable part in the world, nor was it done in order
to study the individual of those earlier days, since
'for this a biography would have been requisite.
According to my conviction that each man's des-
tiny has a logic of its own, no biography can be writ-
ten of one who is still in the third act of his life
drama. No, my aim has been, over and above -de-
scribing the personality of Mussolini, to character-
ise the man of action in general, and to show once
again how closely akin are the poet and the states-
man.
But the following conversations, be they devoted
to political, historical, or moral topics, still remain
conversations on the psychological plane. Even
when concrete questions are put and answered, the
underlying aim is invariably to emphasise the dis-
tinctive traits of the central figure. It will be futile
for the reader to look for sensationalism. The sub-
lime calm of Mussolini and the august serenity of
the great hall gave our converse an extremely serious
17
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
tone. One who wishes to take soundings of the sea
must not attempt to do so during a storm. My own
independence and the indulgence of him whom I
questioned left me perfectly free to ask whatever
I would and, for this very reason, imposed dis-
cretion.
I was dealing with a lion, mighty but high-strung
and nervous. I had to keep him in a good mood and
to make sure that he would never feel bored. When
thorny questions came up for discussion, I found it
expedient to make historical detours, to assume a
theoretical tone, leaving it to Mussolini to decide
whether he would consider the problem exhaus-
tively. At the same time, I had to drive at a speed
of a hundred miles an hour in order, in the short
time allotted, to get to the end of my program. Let
me confess that the tension of these hours of con-
verse in a foreign tongue induced great fatigue. I
venture to hope that Mussolini, too, was perhaps
a little tired! For my part, anyhow, I came home
each day like a sportsman who has fired many shots,
but does not know how successful he has been until
he empties his game bag.
During our talks, no superfluous word was ut-
tered. Courteously but firmly, Mussolini dismissed
me when the hour was up, to resume the thread of
18
INTRODUCTION
our discourse punctually on the following day. We
were never interrupted by telephone calls or by im-
portunate messengers. Owing to this lack of any
kind of disturbance, there prevailed in the great hall
a tranquillity such as, in general, can only be
achieved late at night, when two friends meet for
intimate conversation. In earlier centuries, one may
suppose, the hall must have been lively with music
and dancing, a place where intrigues were con-
cocted in the window seats, and where flattery
was rife. Kings and lords must have paraded their
glories here, but when they wished for serious con-
versation they must have withdrawn to smaller
rooms, since the hall was only used on great occa-
sions. For the last three years, however, forty-two
millions of human beings have been ruled from this
centre. The spirits of the popes whose coats of arms
adorned the walls, and those of the lion and the she-
wolf on the ceiling, may have listened with wonder
to our opening talks, to return, after a while, to a
slumber which has been undisturbed for centuries.
REPRODUCTION
After each conversation my first task was to re-
cord it as faithfully as possible and without addi-
tions. I compressed rather than expanded, and was
19
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
careful to avoid any kind of staginess (to which
Fascism has been unduly prone)* I was particularly
attracted by the indirect form of characterisation,
otie lying intermediate between my dramatic and
my biographical work.
I retained, however, the lively conversational
form, although the subsequent introduction of
headlines has emphasised the opening of each new
topic. I had in mind something like Goethe's conver-
sations with Luden, the longest Goethe conversa-
tion which has come down to us, and one of the fin-
est, because it has not been touched up after the
manner of Eckermann, and because the dissent and
the memory of the lesser interlocutor have engen-
dered and preserved a remarkable freshness. Con-
sequently I have not drawn a picture of the man,
for this would rob the conversation of its chief con-
tent. The reader must limn that picture for him-
self.
Secondly, it was incumbent upon me to remain as
far as possible in the background, since my readers
want to hear Mussolini's views and not mine, and I
have plenty of other opportunities of setting forth
my opinions. The last thing I wished was to argue
with him in order to maintain my own point of
view, my essential aim being to disclose to the world
20
INTRODUCTION
for the first time the man of action as a thinker and
to reveal the connection between his activities and
his thoughts. This seems to me eminently desirable
because the arrogance of those who are shut out
from the world of action and the folly of the masses
have combined to diffuse the erroneous belief that
the man of action thinks as little as the man of
study acts. In these conversations the historian of
future days may find grounds for confirming what
Roederer revealed in the matter of the First Consul.
Roederer records a great many arguments showing
how the Corsican came to decide upon his actions
and what he thought about them such thoughts
being more important for our knowledge of the
human heart than any action can be.
I was in a very different position from Eckermann
and from other memorialists of his kidney. Such
men spent year after year in close intercourse with
the persons whose conversations they recorded and
noted down what was spontaneously uttered. My
talks with Mussolini were for an hour a day upon
a few successive days and I had to provide the stim-
ulus for what he said instead of being merely re-
ceptive.
Since his chief interest is in Fascism, and my chief
interest is in the problem of war and peace, neither
21
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
of these matters emerges as a special topic, but they
run as red threads through all the Mussolini con-
versations.
Naturally, each one of my readers will find this
or that subject missing from our talks. Young men
who aspire to become dictators will vainly seek for
any hints as to how they may become condottieri.
As for those who want a detailed account of Fas-
cism, I can only refer them to the treatises of ex-
perts, who exhaust the topic and their readers like-
wise. Ladies, or some of them maybe, are likely to
complain because nothing is said about the love af-
fairs of the hero; or they will at least want to know
something about his manner of life. Rigid Social-
ists will underline the passages in which, as a histo-
rian in the judgment seat, I ought to have con-
fronted Mussolini with the evidence of his apostasy.
German professors of history will contemptuously
disniiss a work wherein "matters of the gravest im-
port are discussed in a light conversational tone"
and will complain bitterly because I have not given
chapter and verse for certain sentences quoted by
me from Mussolini's speeches. The phenomenologists
will be extremely angry with me because I do not
use their jargon and have therefore made difficult
questions intelligible to the ordinary reader. No
22
INTRODUCTION
doubt every one will complain that great oppor-
tunities have been scandalously missed.
MY PARTNER IN THE DIALOGUE
For twenty-five years I had, from a distance, been
studying the man of action and had been trying to
depict him, dramatically, historically, and psycho-
logically. Now he sat facing me across a table. The
condottiere Cesare Borgia, whom I had once por-
trayed in a Roman palace, the hero of the Romagna,
seemed to have been resurrected, though he wore a
dark lounge suit and a black necktie, and the tele-
phone gleamed between us. In this same hall men of
his sort had triumphed and had fallen; now I faced
their successor, Italian through and through, wholly
a man of the Renaissance. To begin with, I was con-
founded by the feeling of so strange a resemblance.
Yet my man of action had assumed the most pas-
sive role conceivable. He who for ten years had al-
ways been in command had at length consented to
answer another's questions. I had merely submitted
to him an outline sketch of the topics I wanted to
discuss. His entire self-confidence was manifested
in the patience with which he listened to and an-
swered the most difficult questions, and in the lack
of any attempt to guide the conversation towards
23
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
ends chosen by himself. Not once, moreover, did he
stipulate that a reply must be regarded as confiden-
tial, so that the deletions he thought it expedient
to make in my record of our talks were trifling.
For all his outward equanimity, he was perpetu-
ally on the alert. It must be remembered that I knew
what I was going to ask him, whereas he was taken
unprepared; (and since my questions seldom re-
lated to matters concerning which ordinary inter-
viewers must have asked him, but dealt with feel-
ings, self-knowledge, and motives, he had instantly
to look within for an answer, to formulate it
promptly, and to phrase it after the manner in
which he would like to make his private thoughts
known to the world. Nevertheless in his amazing
mastery of thought and speech he seemed entirely
unaffected, having no inclination either to use su-
perlatives or to raise his voice. He was good-
humoured in face of my scepticism and did not
make a single answer which seemed directed toward
the vast crowd of his admirers. Not once did he use
what might have been regarded as an appropriate
Fascist catchword. A dozen times he could have
coined some "Napoleonic" rejoinder for the benefit
of the contemporary world and of posterity, but
the reader will not find so many as three in these
24
INTRODUCTION
conversations. To about four hundred questions he
replied with the same imperturbable repose. To one
only which, perhaps, I should never have asked, and
which is not recorded in these pages, he responded
silently with a glance which implied: "You know
quite well that I have nothing to say about that!"
I knew, of course, well enough when he was reti-
cent. Men of action talk about the realities of power
with as much discretion as the husband of a beauti-
ful woman shows when he speaks of her charms;
they only describe what all the world can see. Still,
his reserves, and the manner of them, gave me much
insight into his character. Furthermore, this reti-
cence, these reserves, related exclusively to the fu-
ture. He never tried to twist or to conceal the
utterances of his Socialist days, but always frankly
acknowledged them. Nor did he ever try to em-
barrass me by the argumentum ad hominem, by ask-
ing me, "What would you have done in such a case?"
Rarely, indeed, did he reply in the interrogative
form, speaking affirmatively, briefly, and to the
point.
He loves simplicity of speech and has no taste for
sparkling epigrams, with the result that the more
concise among his answers sound like abrupt deci-
sions. His style, in conversation at any rate, observes
25
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
the true Italian mean between French and German,
for it is neither elegant nor cumbrous, but metallic,
the metal not being iron, but finely tempered steel,
and the phrasing elastic and richly modulated in ac-
cordance with the Italian tradition. Then, of a sud-
den, he will say something perfectly simple, arriv-
ing at an unexpected conclusion which is presented
undraped. His lucid Italian (based, one might think,
upon Latin models) contrasts strongly in all respects
with D'Annunzio's soaring oratory, this mould of
expression sufficing by itself to distinguish the man
of action from the Platonist.
With his consent, titles of address were promptly
jettisoned, so that I could pursue my questioning
without flourishes and without needless delay. He
never attempted to correct my faulty Italian; but
when, on one occasion, I mispronounced a French
name, the sometime schoolmaster peeped out amus-
ingly, and in a low tone he uttered it as it should
have been spoken. When, in his turn, he wanted to
speak jf the "Umwertung aller Werte" (revalua-
tion of all values) , and, despite his intimate knowl-
edge of our language, made a slip, he corrected him-
self by adding ff genitivu$ pluralis" I may mention
in passing that I have heard him speak both French
and English with fluency. His memory is so good
26
INTRODUCTION
that on the spur of the moment he was able to men-
tion the names of the universities at which a French
ethnologist had taught; the names of the Jewish
generals who were serving in the Italian army at the
date of our conversations and the places in which
they held command; and also the date when John
Huss was burned.
Like all true dictators, Mussolini shows the utmost
courtesy. It would seem as if such men, between
races, like to make their steed prance gracefully
upon the saddling ground. He never appeared nerv-
ous or out of humor, but fingered a pencil while he
was talking or sometimes sketched with it idly (I
have seen the same trick in another dictator) . He
fidgeted a good deal in his chair, like a man whom
long-continued sitting makes uneasy. It has been
said that at times he breaks off in the middle of his
work, mounts a motor cycle, and races off to Ostia
with one of his children sitting pillion the police
detailed to protect him dashing after him in a desper-
ate attempt to keep in touch.
Speaking generally, he leads a far more lonely
life than do the Russian leaders, who meet one an-
other and watch one another in innumerable com-
mittees. Since he also leads an extremely healthy life
and has managed to secure a marvellously quiet
27
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
environment, he seems much more likely to live to
a ripe old age than statesmen who are incessantly
on the go. Apart from the exercise of power, he
has no enjoyments. Titles, crowns, and social life
mean nothing to him, this being specially remark-
able in Rome, where the diplomatic corps is more
strongly represented and more authoritative than
in any other capital. From this outlook, Mussolini
could to-day almost say to himself "I am the State."
Yet when two workmen turned up one evening to
repair his telephone, he greeted them and bade them
farewell with so much cordiality that I could not
but think of the cold arrogance which an ordinary
"captain of industry" would have displayed in face
of so tiresome an interruption.
Notwithstanding his reticence, he has humour, a
grim humour which manifests itself in restrained
laughterl But he cannot understand a joke and no
one would ever venture to tell him what is called
a funny story. He loves order and precision. Open-
ing one of the volumes of an encyclopaedia, he looks
for statistics concerning Italian women and gives
them to me down to three places of decimals. Once
he said to me, "I have a dislike for the a peii pres" In
the German typescript I submitted to him he punc-
tiliously corrected all the typist's errors. So great is
28
INTRODUCTION
his exactitude that when, in search of certain in-
formation, I wanted to get in touch with some of
his ministers of state, he telephoned to them twice
over, giving full details as to the place and time of
meeting and as to the materials with which they
were to supply me. Thrift, which upstarts are very
apt to forget, has for him become so much second
nature that he wrote some notes for me on the back
of cards of which the other side contained the pen-
cilled agenda of the previous week.
In conversation, Mussolini is the most natural
man in the world. Yet I know that people who are
themselves poseurs have given a different picture
of him.
THE STATESMAN
One who wishes to know a man of action as he
really is must make his acquaintance when he is well
advanced in his career, since if he be of strong char-
acter, success will develop it. For Mussolini at fifty,
mature and balanced, it seems to me that the funda-
mental moral problem must be to hold a revolution-
ary temperament in check. I do not think that he
will fail to do so, inasmuch as he embodies likewise
some of the characteristics of the paterfamilias, and
at his present age these tend to become confirmed.
29
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
But I have a second reason for believing that he will
keep the peace.
Taking into consideration all that I have heard
and all that I have seen, I have no hesitation in de-
scribing him as a great statesman. What is great-
ness in a man of action? For me this greatness must
consist in the coincidence of certain qualities, each
present in a suitable dose and combining to make up
a character capable of exercising a moral command
capable, that is to say, of constructive work in
the grand style.
I think that Mussolini to-day, ten years after the
conquest of power, is much more ardently inclined
to promote the constructive development of Italy
than to engage in destructive activities against his
enemies; it seems to me that the victories he seeks
are now only victories within the frontiers of his
own country. Apart from this, he has two traits
which are lacking in most dictators and which are
nevertheless indispensable to greatness. Though
risen to power, he has not lost the capacity of admir-
ing the great deeds of others, while he has acquired
the faculty of recognising what is symbolical in his
own achievements. Both these qualities, necessary
elements of the Goethean type, safeguard a self-
controlled man of power from megalomania and
30
INTRODUCTION
range him in that category of philosophical spirits
to which all true men o action belong.
Mussolini rose to power without having to make
war and was therefore at times exposed to the temp-
tation of seeking to acquire fame as a warrior. For
various reasons this epoch of pugnacity would ap-
pear to be closed. To-day he has the choice between
striving to resemble one or other of two contrasted
dictators, the ageing Napoleon and the ageing
Cromwell. The following conversations will show
which is likely to be his exemplar.
31
PART ONE
*+*^^
THE TRAINING OF A RULER
THE SCHOOL OF POVERTY
'HAT about hunger?" I inquired. "Was
hunger, likewise, one of your teachers?"
As I questioned him thus, he scrutinised me with
his dark eyes which gleamed like black satin in the
half light. Thrusting forward his chin as his man-
ner is, he seemed to be communing with the arduous
experiences of his youth. Then, speaking in low
tones, and pausing from time to time, he answered:
"Hunger is a good teacjjgr. Almost as good as
JfOHfllMH-l***. H^_. _ L .. J . -,,,,,.., ^Jaf ^U.*** 1 ,.-""'"*!'!,"""* **** V^
prison and a man's enemies. My mother, who was
a schoolmistress, earned fifty lire a month; my
father, a blacksmith, now more, now less. We lived
in a two-room tenement. Rareljr was there anyjrneat
on the table from one week's end to another. There
were passionate arguments and quarrels; ardent
hopes. My father was sent to prison as a Socialist
agitator. When he died, thousands of his comrades
followed his body to the grave side. All this provided
a definite trend to my aspyrajEJLQns. Had I had a dif-
ferent sort of father, I should have become a dif-
ferent sort of man. But my character was already
35
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
formed in the early days at home. Any one closely
acquainted with me at that time could already have
recognised when I was sixteen what I now am, with
all the light and shade. The fact that I was born
among the common people put the trump cards in
my hand."
This was said in his low-pitched voice, whose
sound recalls that of a distant gong. I have heard
it in two different tones. Sometimes, when he was
speaking in the open, it had a military resonance,
reminding me of Trotsky talking to the crowd. In
ordinary conversation, however, he never raises his
voice, speaking in a way which betokens a pur-
posive economising of his energies. But I have heard
him use the same repressed tones in the open air,
talking to a knot of twenty workmen who stood
round him in a circle. Xhis restraint is emblematic
of the man's whole disposition. In general, Musso-
lini holds himself in check, making a display of his
natural vigour only on rare occasions.
"With your constructive instinct," I said, "you
take delight in machines. Does this date from child-
hood, when in the smithy you made acquaintance
with the elements out of which machines are built
up? Do you believe that the practice of a handicraft
has a productive influence upon mental work?"
36
THE SCHOOL OF POVERTY
"A very powerful influence/' he answered em-
phatically. "These early impressions are deep and
lasting. Watching the hammer in the forge one ac-
quires a passion for this matter which a man can and
must fashion in accordance with his will. Down to
this very day I am attracted when I see a stonemason
building the framework for a window and I feel
that I should like to do the job myself."
"I once read a letter you wrote thirty years ago,
a letter in which you told a friend about your jour-
ney to Switzerland, and said that passing through
the St. Gotthard in the night had divided your life
into two parts."
"Yes, such was the effect of that night," said Mus-
solini. "I am sure of it, I was nineteen years old,
wrote verses, and wanted to go out into the world
to try my fortune. So impatient was I that I aban-
doned my post as schoolmaster, left my father in
prison (not that I could have done anything to set
him free!) and, almost penniless, went to Switzer-
land to make my living there as a manual worker.
One does that sort of thing in mingled enthusiasm
and despair; but perhaps rage is the dominant feel-
ing. I had been infuriated by the sorrows of my par-
ents; I had been humiliated at school; to espouse the
cause of the revolution gave hope to a young man
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
who felt himself disinherited. It was inevitable that
I should become a Socialist ultra, a Blanquist, indeed
a communist. I carried about a medallion with
Marx's head on it in my pocket. I think I regarded
it as a sort of talisman."
"What do you think of Marx now when you
look at such a medallion?"
"That he had a profound critical intelligence and
was in some sense even a prophet. But at that time,
in Switzerland, I had little chance of discussing such
matters. Among my fellow workers I was the most
cultured, and besides, we worked very long hours.
In the chocolate factory at Orbe there was a twelve-
hour day; and when I was a builder's labourer I had
to carry a hod up two storeys one hundred and
twenty times a day. Yet even then I had an obscure
conviction that I was only being schooled for what
was to come."
"Even when you were imprison?"
"There, above all," he rejoined. "There I learned
patience. Prison is like a sea voyage. On a ship and
in prison a man has to be patient."
I pressed him to tell me about these prison expe-
riences.
He leaned forward into the light of the tall stand-
ard lamp, laying both his arms on the table as is
38
THE SCHOOL OF POVERTY
his way when he wants to explain something very
clearly or to relate an anecdote. At such times he is
especially genial, thrusting his chin forward, pout-
ing his lips a little, while fruitlessly endeavouring
to mask his good humour by knitting his eyebrows.
"I have tasted prison m yarioM^cpi^tries,
eleven times in all. I was jailed in Berne, Lausanne,
Geneva, Trent, and Forli, in some of these towns
several times. It always gave me a r$$t which other-
wise I should not have been able to get. That is why
I do not bear my jailers any grudge. During one of
my terms of imprisonment I read 'Don Quixote' and
found it extraordinarily amusing."
"I suppose that is why you clap your political op-
ponents in jail?" I asked ironically, and he smiled.
"But does not the memory of your own prison ex-
periences sometimes give you pause?"
He looked at me in manifest surprise.
"By no means! It seems to me that I am perfectly
consistent. They began by locking me up. Now I
pay them back in their own coin."
39
THE SCHOOL OF THE SOLDIER AND
THE JOURNALIST
L
.N Prussia," I said, "even though we disliked
drill, military service was so attractive that, long
after it was done with, the reddest of Socialists
would, over his beer, love to recall the vanished joys
of youth in the army. But you, as I learned from
one of your letters, when you were a soldier were
fearfully patriotic, being in this matter far more
ardent than any German Socialist I have known
ever was in peace time. Instead of railing at your
officers, as did every other Italian private in those
days, you expressed a wish to be a thoroughly good
soldier. Was it a matter of personal pride or did
you wish to do yourself credit as a Socialist? 9 *
"Both reasons were at work," he rejoined. "In
truth I was a model soldier. I never felt that there
was any conflict between my military duties and
my Socialism. Why should not a good soldier be also
a fighter in the class war? It is true that even to-day
the Italians are very critical of their officers. That
41
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
makes the latter mind their p's and q's. Besides, a
man must learn to obey before he can command,"
"I find it difficult to discover when you can have
learned to obey!"
"In the army, at least," he said; but he could not
think of any other occasion.
"And to-day, after the lapse of fifteen years, do
you still think of war as a means of education, like,
so to speak, a duel? Do you still hold that such a man
as yourself ought to take his place in the trenches,
instead of continuing to work at a writing desk; and
in days to come, if similar circumstances were to
arise, would you send such a man as yourself to the
front?"
He looked at me keenly, for he saw that I was a
trifle heated and that I had given him a chance to
underline his contention. Turning a little in his
chair, he placed his finger tips together a trick
he has. Mussolini has beautiful hands, and I have
noticed the same bodily characteristics in other dic-
tators. He replied:
"What use I should make of such a man would
depend upon circumstances. As for the duel, that
is a chivalric form of encounter and I have myself
fought several duels. But the school of war is cer-
tainly a very great experience. It. brixigs _a man
42
SOLDIER AND JOURNALIST
into contact with stark reality. From day to day,
from hour to hour, he is faced with the alternative
of life or death. At the front I saw that the Italians
are good soldiers. For us this was the first great test
for a thousand years. Yes, I am not exaggerating!
Although there have been innumerable wars be-
tween the provinces and the city-states of Italy, our
nation as a whole has not known war on the grand
scale since the fall of the Roman Empire. Not even
during the overthrow of the republic of Florence
that was four centuries back. Napoleon was the first
to test our people under arms and was well content
with the result."
Since I had made up my mind never to argue a
point with him (for the object of these talks was
not that we should convince each other but merely
that I should get to know him) , I went back to the
topic of the trenches.
"It surprises me that you, of all people, found
it possible to endure the incessant proximities of
trench life. Dehmel, the poet, who went to the front
as a volunteer, told me that the hardest thing to bear
was that he was never alone."
"Same here," said Mussolini. "In compensation,
one learned, above all, the art of attack and de-
fence."
43
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
"Are you talking literally or metaphorically? Did
you learn enough about strategy to turn the knowl-
edge to account in your March on Rome?"
"Literally, I learned something at the front.
Though I did not personally lead the march, the
advance in three diagonals was decided upon by me
in conversation with the generals."
"You were lucky enough to rise to power with-
out bloodshed," said I. "But suppose that some day
you were to become involved in a war, that one of
your generals proved incompetent and suffered a
defeat?"
Mussolini's face wrinkled ironically.
"Suppose! Well, what then?"
"Suppose that the upshot was the destruction of
the great work you have been constructing for so
many years."
"You know well enough," he replied, perfectly
serious once more, "that through all these years I
have been careful to avoid anything of the kind,"
I had overshot the mark a little and returned to
personal matters by asking him if he had ever been
grievously wounded.
"So badly wounded that it was impossible for me
to be moved! One of the newspapers had mentioned
where I was laid up. Thereupon the Austrians
44
SOLDIER AND JOURNALIST
shelled the hospital. All the patients except three
had been removed. There I lay for several days, ex-
pecting from moment to moment to be blown to
smithereens."
"Is it true that when they performed a necessary
operation you refused to take chloroform?"
He nodded affirmatively.
"I wanted to keep an eye upon what the surgeons
were doing."
"It seems to me you must have been an exception
in your enthusiasm for the war."
"No," he insisted. "In those days there were
plenty of young men who went joyfully to death."
"But what about the millions of the slain? Were
they all joyful in their deaths? How, then, do you
account for the fact that so vast a war did not pro-
duce a single poem worthy of the name, whereas
plenty of fine poems were written about earlier
wars, fought for vengeance or to win freedom
or perchance its semblance? Speaking generally, can
an emotional mood be sustained for several years?"
"No, no," he answered. "As for what you say
about poems, the war was too great and the men who
fought it were too small."
"The next war will be largely a war of poison
gas, a war in which there will be much less scope for
45
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
courage and little possibility for the personal activ-
ity of self-defence. Do you think that the war of
to-morrow will still be an important school, an ir-
replaceable training for youth?"
"Not irreplaceable. Still, it will always be a fine
discipline to stand fire. To win freedom from the
tremors of fear cannot fail to have a profound moral
effect."
Since Mussolini and I were not likely to come to
an understanding upon this matter of war, I turned
to the question of journalism and asked him whether
he had learned muchjLS a newspaper man.
"A great deal," he replied, speaking now more
quickly and in a livelier tone, like one looking back
upon the culminating phases of his youth. "For me
my newspaper was a weapon, a banner, my very
soul. I once thought of it as my favourite child."
"And to-day?" I asked. "If you think journalism
so important a school, why do you muzzle, the
press?"
"Things have changed very much since the war,"
he answered emphatically. "To-day the newspapers,
most of them at any rate, up longer serve, jcleas but
<$nly per$o&al interests. This being so, how can they
achieve the moral education of those who write for
them? Technically, however, journalism remains an
46
SOLDIER AND JOURNALIST
educational force, for diplomatists* and statesmen,
seeing that it accustoms them to form their views
quickly and to adapt themselves to changing situa-
tions. But a journalist should be young."
"Prince Biilow once quoted to me the French epi-
gram: f Le journalisme mene a tout, pourvu qu'on en
sorted But since you think that running a newspaper
has taught you so much and presumably your
readers as well surely you must recognise that
any kind of , censorship must make an end of this
part of productive criticism?"
"That is an illusion, 5 ' he briskly rejoined. "First of
all," he picked up a newspaper, "here you will find
one of my ordinances vigorously criticised. In the
second place, when there is no censorship, the papers
only publish what their paymasters, large-scale in-
dustry and the banks, want to have printed."
"Perhaps things were not quite so bad twenty
years ago, when you were an interviewer. In those
days did you study the physiognomy of your sub-
jects? And did you prepare yourself for the fray, as
I have prepared myself before coming to interview
you?"
"Of course I did," said Mussolini. "For instance,
when I interviewed Briand at Cannes. Not so very
long afterwards we met again as prime ministers.
47
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
I have always been a physiognomist. But to-day,
when I read even more newspapers than I used to do,
I sometimes think that any four-footed jackass
could write better than these fellows do. Especially
do I think so when I read attacks."
"You read a lot of newspapers, then?"
"All I can, and especially the journals of my
enemies. I collect caricatures too, and have volumes
filled with them."
"There have already been caricatures of you and
me together," said I. "In a German newspaper I am
figured sitting astride your shoulder."
Mussolini laughed, saying:
"Caricature is important; it is necessary. Your
people are always saying that the government of
Italy is now a tyranny. Have you read Trilusso's
satires? They are venomous, but so clever that I have
not suppressed them."
"To-day, when you can survey the problems of
state from an airplane, do you find that your earlier
critical writings were unjust? Or were you already
constructive as a Socialist newspaper man?"
"Oh, I used to make constructive proposals even
then; but only now am I able to take a comprehen-
sive view, and that makes me gentler in my judg-
ment of my colleagues."
48
SOLDIER AND JOURNALIST
"But if you write articles to-day, are you more
moderate than you used to be?"
His eyes flashed as he answered:
"I can only write fiercely and resolutely/ 5
"In those earlier days, when your fierceness and
resoluteness seemed of no avail, did you think that
you were still only in the prelude?"
The sternness of his expression relaxed. In such
moments of expansion, he opens his eyes so wide that
one feels as if he wished to breathe in the light
through them.
fered, I had 3 definite ioreboding
trainedL for a mate important position."
49
THE SCHOOL OF HISTORY
OO1
)ME one had made me a present of the edition
de luxe of Machiavelli, which the Fascist State pub-
lishing organisation has somewhat too conspicuously
dedicated to the Duce. All the same, it is doubtless
better that a dictatorial government should ac-
knowledge its obligations to this instructor of
dictators than that, while secretly acting on his
theories, it should use "Machiavellian" as a term of
abuse. When Frederick the Great was yet only
crown prince he wrote his moralising "Anti-
MachiaveL" In later days he became more straight-
forward, governing frankly in accordance with
Machiavelli's principles.
"Did you make early acquaintance with Ma-
chiavelli's 'The Prince?' " I asked Mussolini.
"My father used to read the book aloud in the
evenings, when we were warming ourselves beside
the smithy fire and were drinking the vin ordinaire
produced from our own vineyard. It made a deep
impression on me. When, at the age of forty, I read
Machiavelli once again, the effect was reinforced."
51
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
"It is strange/* I said, "how such men as Machia-
velli flourish for a time, pass into oblivion, and are
then resuscitated. It seems as if there were seasonal
variations."
"What you say is certainly true of nations. They
have a spring and a winter, more than one. At length
they perish."
"It is because there are recurring seasons in the
national life that I have never been much alarmed
that winter now prevails in Germany," said I. "A
hundred years ago and more, when Germany had
fallen on evil days, Goethe made fun of those who
spoke of our 'decay.' Have you studied any of the
notable figures of our political life?"
"Bismarck," he promptly answered. "From the
outlook of political actualities, he was the greatest
man of his century. I have never thought of him as
merely the comic figure with three hairs on his bald
head and a heavy footfall. Your book confirmed my
impression as to how versatile and complex he was.
In Germany, do people know much about our
Cavour?"
"Very little," I answered. "They know much
more about Mazzini. Recently I read a very fine
letter of Mazzini's to Charles Albert, written, I
think, in 1831 or 1832; the invocation of a poet to
52
THE SCHOOL OF HISTORY
a prince. Do you approve of Charles Albert's having
issued orders for Mazzini's imprisonment should he
cross the frontier?"
"The letter," said Mussolini, "is one of the most
splendid documents ever written. Charles Albert's
figure has not yet become very clear to us Italians.
A little while ago his diary was published and this
throws considerable light upon his psychology. At
first, of course, he inclined to the side of the liberals.
When, in 1 8 3 2 no, in 1 8 3 3 the Sardinian Gov-
ernment sentenced Mazzini to death in con-
tumacmm, this happened in a peculiar political
situation."
The answer seemed to me so guarded that, in my
persistent but unavowed determination to compare
the present to the past, I considered it necessary to
speak more clearly.
"Those were the days when Young Italy was
being published illegally. Don't you think that such
periodicals appear under all censorships? "Would
you have imprisoned Mazzini?"
"Certainly not," he rejoined. "If a man has ideas
in his head, let him come to me, and we will talk
things over. But when Mazzini wrote that letter,
he was guided more by his feelings than by his reason.
Piedmont in those days had only four million in-
53
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
habitants and could not possibly form front against
powerful Austria with her thirty millions."
"Well, Mazzini was jailed," I resumed. "Soon
afterwards, Garibaldi was sentenced to death. Two
generations later, you were put in prison. Should we
not infer that a ruler ought to think twice before
punishing his political opponents?"
"I suppose you mean that we don't think twice
here in Italy?" he inquired with some heat.
"But you have reintroduced capital punish-
ment."
"There is capital punishment in all civilised
countries; in Germany, no less than in France and
in England."
"Yet it was in Italy," I insisted, "in the mind of
Beccaria, that the idea of abolishing capital punish-
ment originated. Why have you revived it?"
"Because I have read Beccaria," replied Mussolini,
simply and without irony. He went on, with the
utmost gravity: "What Beccaria writes is contrary
to what most people believe. Besides, after capital
punishment was abolished in Italy, there was a
terrible increase in serious crime. As compared with
England, the tally in Italy was five to one. I am
guided, in this matter, exclusively by social con-
siderations. Was it not Saint Thomas who said that it
54
THE SCHOOL OF HISTORY
would be better to cut off a gangrenous arm if
thereby the whole body could be saved? Anyhow, I
proceed with the utmost caution and circumspec-
tion. Only in cases of acknowledged and exception-
ally brutal murders is the death punishment in-
flicted. Not very long ago, two rascals violated a
youth and then murdered him. Both the offenders
were sentenced to death. I had followed the trial
with close attention. At the last moment doubt
became insistent. One of the two offenders was a
habitual criminal who had avowed his crime; the
other, a much younger man, had pleaded not guilty,
and there were no previous charges against him.
Six hours before the execution I reprieved the^
younger of the two."
"You could put that in the chapter, Advantages
of Dictatorship/ " I said.
His repartee was swift and couched in a tone of
mockery:
"The alternative is a state machine which grinds
on automatically without any one having the power
to stop its working."
"Would you like to leave this contentious topic
and talk about Napoleon?"
"Go ahead!"
"Despite our previous conversations, I am not
55
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
clear whether you regard him as a model or as a
warning/'
He sat back in his chair, looked rather gloomy,
and said in a restrained tone:
"As a warning. I have never taken Napoleon as
an examplar, for in no respect am I comparable to
him. His activities were of a very different kind
from mine. He put a term to a revolution, whereas
I have begun one. The record of his life has made
me aware of errors which are by no means easy to
avoid/' Mussolini ticked them off on his fingers.
"Nepotism. A contest with the papacy. A lack of
understanding of finance and economic life. He saw
nothing more than that after his victories there was
a rise in securities."
"What laid him low? The professors declare that
he was shipwrecked on the rock of England."
"That is nonsense," answered Mussolini. "Napo-
leon fell, as you yourself have shown, because of the
contradictions in his own character. At long last,
that is what always leads to a man's downfall. He
wanted to wear the imperial crown! He wanted to
found a dynasty! As First Consul he was at the
climax of his greatness. The decline began with the
foundation of the empire. Beethoven was perfectly
right when he withdrew the dedication of the
56
THE SCHOOL OF HISTORY
Eroica. It was the wearing of the crown which con-
tinually entangled the Corsican in fresh wars. Com-
pare him with Cromwell The latter had a splendid
idea; supreme power in the State and no war!**
I had brought him to a point of outstanding im-
portance.
"There can, then, be imperialism without an im-
perium?"
"There are half a dozen different kinds of im-
perialism. There is really no need for all the blazons
of empire. Indeed, they are dangerous. The more
widely empire is diffused, the more does it forfeit its
organic energy. All the same, the tendency towards
imperialism is one of the elementary trends of
human nature, an expression of the will to power.
Nowadays we see the imperialism of the dollar;
there is also a religious imperialism, and an artistic
imperialism as well. In any case, these are tokens of
the human vital energy. So long as a man lives, he
is an imperialist. When he is dead, for him imperial-
ism is over."
At this moment Mussolini looked extraordinarily
Napoleonic, reminding me of Lefevre's engraving
of 181 5. But now the tension of his features relaxed
and in a quieter tone he continued:
"Naturally every imperium has its zenith. Since
57
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
it is always the creation of exceptional men, it carries
within it the seeds of its own decay. Like everything
exceptional, it contains ephemeral elements. It may
last one or two centuries, or no more than ten years.
The will to power."
"Is it to be kept going only by war?" I asked.
"Not only," he answered. "Of that there can be
no question." He became a little didactic. "Thrones
need wars for their maintenance, but dictatorships
can sometimes get on without them. The power of
a nation is the resultant of numerous elements and
these are not exclusively military. Still, I must admit
that hitherto, as far as the general opinion is con-
cerned, the position of a nation has greatly depended
upon its military strength. Down to the present
time, people have regarded the capacity for war as
the synthesis of all the national energies.* 5
"Till yesterday," I interpolated. "But what about
to-morrow?"
"To-morrow?" he reiterated sceptically. "It is
true that capacity for war-making is no longer /a
dependable criterion of power. For to-morrow,
therefore, there is need of some sort of international
authority. At least, the unification of a cbhtinent.
Now that the unity of States has been achieved, an
attempt will be made to achieve the unity of con-
58
THE SCHOOL OF HISTORY
tinents. But as far as Europe is concerned, that will
be damnably difficult, since each nation has its own
peculiar countenance, its own language, its own
customs, its own types. For each nation, a certain
percentage of these characteristics (x per cent., let
us say) remains completely original, and this in-
duces resistance to any sort of fusion. In America,
no doubt, things are easier. There eight-and-forty
States, in which the same language is spoken every-
where and whose history is so short, can maintain
their union."
"But surely," I put in, "each nation possesses y
per cent, of characteristics which are purely
European?"
"This lies outside the power of each nation.
Napoleon wanted to establish unity in Europe. The
unification . of Europe was his leading ambition.
To-day such a unification has perhaps become
possible, but even then only on the ideal plane, as
Charlemagne or Charles V tried to bring it about,
from the Atlantic Ocean to the Urals."
"Or, maybe, only to the Vistula?"
"Yes, maybe, only to the Vistula."
"Is it your idea that such a Europe would be under
Fascist leadership?"
"What is leadership?" he countered. "Here in
59
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
Italy our Fascism is what it is. Perhaps it contains
certain elements which other countries might
adopt."
"I always find you more moderate than most
Fascists," said I. "You would be amazed if you knew
what a foreigner in Rome has to listen to. Perhaps
it was the same thing under Napoleon at the climax
of his career. Apropos, can you explain to me why
the Emperor never became completely wedded to
his capital, why he always remained le fianct de
Paris?"
Mussolini smiled and began his reply in French:
fr Ses manieres n'etaient pas tres parisiennes. Per-
haps there was a brutal strain in him. Moreover, he
had many opponents. The Jacobins were against him
because he had crushed the revolution; the legiti-
hiates, because he was a usurper; the religious-
minded, because of his contest with the papacy. It
was only the common folk who loved him. They had
plenty to eat under his regime, and they are more
impressed by fame than are the educated classes.
You must remember that fame is a matter not of
logic, but of sentiment/*
"You speak rather sympathetically of Napoleon!
It would seem that your respect for him has not
diminished during your own tenure of power, in
60
THE SCHOOL OF HISTORY
which you have become enabled to understand his
situation from personal experience. 5 *
"No, on the contrary, my respect for him has
increased."
"When he was still a youthful general, he said
that an empty throne always tempted him to take his
seat upon it. What do you think of that?"
Mussolini opened his eyes wide, as he does when
in an ironical mood, but at the same time he smiled.
"Since the days when Napoleon was emperor," he
said, "thrones have become much less alluring than
they were/*
"True enough/* I replied. "Nobody wants to be
a king nowadays. When, a little while ago, I said to
King Fuad of Egypt, 'Kings must be loved, but
dictators dreaded,' he exclaimed, 'How I should like
to be a dictatotl^Does history^give any record of a
usurper who was loved?*'
Mussolini, whose changes of countenance always
foreshadow his answers (unless he wants to conceal
his thoughts) became earnest of mien once more.
His expression of sustained energy relaxed, so that
he looked younger than usual. After a pause, and
even then hesitatingly, he rejoined:
"Julius Caesar, perhaps. The assassination of
Caesar jps a misfortune for mankind." He added
61
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
softly, "I love Caesar. He was unique in that he
combined the will of the warrior with the genius
of the sage. At bottom he was a philosopher who
saw everything sub specie eternitatis. It is true that
he had a passion for fame, but his ambition did not
cut him off from human kind."
"After all, then, a dictator can be loved?"
"Yes," answered Mussolini with renewed decisive-
ness. "Provided that the masses fear him at the same
time. The crowd loves strong men. The crowd is
like a woman."
62
PART T0
METAMORPHOSES
SOCIALISM AND NATIONALISM
I entered, I saw from a distance that Mussolini
was fluttering the pages of a newspaper- "When
I had crossed the ocean of the great hall and had
reached the harbour of his writing table, he tore
off a half -sheet covered with pictures, handed it
to me, and said sarcastically:
"Look! New tractors, only tractors; no big guns!
Please make a note of it!"
I saw, indeed, an illustration of a long train of
these modern elephants, slowly advancing, and said:
"If I am to make people believe that you are giving
away pictures of tractors, I must ask you to sign
your name at the foot!"
He smiled, did what I requested, and handed me
back the picture as a memento.
"All the same," I said, "it seems to me that you
are the man for big guns. That was why, the other
day, you referred to your youth as having been that
of a Communist. It is one of the paradoxes 'of your
development, explicable enough, however, that you,
65
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
a renegade from the most pacifist of all political
parties, and after spending your prime amongst
cannon, should now turn back towards tractors.
Your Christian name, indeed, should give you a
push in this direction!"
He was silent but amused, while I went on: x
"Is it possible that you do not believe in the magi-
cal power of a name? Do you not find it strange
that a blacksmith should have named his two sons
after two well-named disturbers of the peace?"
"It did not do my brother much good," answered
Mussolini. "He lacked the passionate impetus of
that Arnaldo after whom he was called. A revolu-
tionist is born, not made/*
"Do you think there is any notable difference be-
tween the composition of a modern revolutionist
and that of one of earlier days?"
"The form has changed. One condition, how-
ever, has been requisite through all the ages
courage, physical as well as moral. For the rest,
every revolution creates new forms, new myths
and new rites; and the would-be revolutionist,
while using old traditions, must refashion them.
He must create new festivals, new gestures, new
forms, which will themselves in turn become tra-
ditional. The airplane festival is new to-day. In
66
SOCIALISM AND NATIONALISM
half a century it will be encrusted with the patina
of tradition,"
"Don't you think that many young men are only
anarchists because they have no chance of becom-
ing rulers?"
"Of course," he replied; "eyery anarchist is a dic-
tator who has missed fire."
"But since you feel that you yourself were edu-
cated by the revolutionary spirit of your youth, by
rebelliousness and originality, why is it that to-day
you enforce obedience and order upon the young
and construct a new bureaucracy, you who made
mock of the old one?"
"You are mistaken," he tranquilly objected. "In
our fathers' days, governments had not a sufficient
sense of the State. Besides, new times have brought
new tasks for the nation; if there is to be a maximum
of efficiency, there must be a maximum of order.
Here in Italy we have realised as much as is real-
isable in the present phase of development. As
regards bureaucracy, I admit the force of your
criticism, but bureaucracy is inevitable. Concern-
ing order, we have to do with historical necessities.
We are living in the third act of the drama. There
comes a moment
conservative."
67
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
"It ought to make you long-suffering when you
remember your own imprisonment, and when those
who used to be your friends have become your
foes."
"Well, I have not troubled those of my comrades
who have ceased to march in line with me."
"It must be difficult," I went on, "for a revolu-
tionist, one who acts outside the law, to impose
limits upon himself. In the year 1911, when you
were being prosecuted, you said that sabotage must
have a moral purpose; it was permissible to cut tele-
graph wires but not to derail a neutral train. That
remark of yours made a great impression on me.
How are we to draw the line between permissible
and unpermissible revolution?"
"That is a moral question which each revolu-
tionist must decide for himself."
I seized the opportunity of asking him about his
plans in those pre-war days.
"If, in the year 1913, you had been successful
in the revolt at Milan, what would have been the
upshot?"
"Then? The republic!" came the reply, short and
sharp.
"But how do these ideas comport with a nation-
68
SOCIALISM AND NATIONALISM
alism which was already a fully developed creed?"
"Surely a republican can just as well be a nation-
alist as a monarchist can be perhaps better. Are
there not plenty of examples?"
"But if |iationalism be independent of forms of
government, and also of questions of class, then it
must also be independent of questions of race.
Do you really believe, as some ethnologists con-
tend, that there are still pure races in Europe? Do
you believe that racial unity is a requisite guarantee
for vigorous nationalist aspirations? Are you not
exposed to the danger that the apologists of Fascism
will (like Professor Blank) talk the same nonsense
about the Latin races as northern pedants have
talked about the "noble blonds/ and thereby in-
crease rival pugnacities?"
Mussolini grew animated, for this is a matter
upon which, owing no doubt to the exaggeration
of some of the Fascists, he feels that he is likely to
be misunderstood.
"Of course there are no pure races left; not even
""*"* , , , ,,,,!,) 1 ... * *''' "" ''
the Jews have kept their blood unmingled. Suc-
cessful crossings have often promoted the energy
and the beauty of a nation. Race! It is a feeling, not
a reality; ninety-five per cent.* at least, is a feeling.
69
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
Nothing will ever make me believe that biologically
pure races can be shown to exist to-day. Amusingly
enough, not one of those who have proclaimed the
'nobility' of the Teutonic race was himself a Teuton.
Gobineau was a Frenchman; Houston Chamberlain,
an Englishman; Woltmann, a Jew; Lapogue, an-
other Frenchman. Chamberlain actually declared
that Rome was the capital of chaos. No such doc-
trine will ever find wide acceptance here in Italy.
Professor Blank, whom you quoted just now, is a
man with more poetic imagination than science in
his composition. National pride has no need of the
delirium of race."
"That is the best argument against anti-Semi-
tism," said I.
"Anti-Semitism does not exist in Italy," answered
Mussolini. "Italians of Jewish birth have shown
themselves good citizens, and they fought bravely
in the war. Many of them occupy leading positions
in the universities, in the army, in the banks. Quite
a number of them are generals; Modena, the com-
mandant of Sardinia, is a general of the artillery."
"Nevertheless," I put in, "Italian refugees in
Paris use it as an argument against you that you
have forbidden the admission of Jews to the
Academy."
70
SOCIALISM AND NATIONALISM
"The accusation is absurd. Since my day, there
has been no Jew suitable for admission. Now Delia
Seta is a candidate; a man of great learning, the lead-
ing authority on prehistoric Italy."
"If you are falsely accused in this matter, you
suffer in good company. In Germany there is a
preposterous fable that Bismarck and Goethe were
prejudiced against Jews. Without any justification,
the French speak of a certain anomaly as f le vice
allemand* The term might be more reasonably ap-
plied to anti-Semitism/*
"How do you explain that?" asked Mussolini.
"Whenever things go awry in Germany, the Jews
are blamed for it. Just now we are in exceptionally
bad case!"
"Ah, yes, the scapegoat!"
I returned, to the wider question of race.
"If, then, neither race nor the form of govern-
ment accounts for nationalism, are we to attribute
it to community of speech? But ancient Rome, like
other empires, was a State in which many tongues
were spoken; and in modern history it has never
seemed to me that multiplicity of languages was a
source of weakness to a State. The Habsburg do-
minion fell, but Switzerland flourishes."
"I do not think that unity of speech is decisive
71
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
in this matter," said Mussolini. "Austria did not
perish because it was a polyglot realm, but because
it was a constrained unification of many conquered
peoples under one sceptre, whereas in Switzerland
those who speak various tongues have spontaneously
combined to form a nationality. Switzerland was
able to maintain her neutrality throughout the
Great War because the French-speaking element,
inclining towards one side, and the German-speak-
ing element, inclining towards the other, were
fairly balanced. I regard Switzerland as a very im-
portant link in the chain of European States, for,
owing to the very fact that she is a composite, she
is able to mitigate much of the friction between the
two great rivals on her frontier."
"If you are as little concerned as we are about
the diversity of tongues, I presume you are not
an advocate of a universal language?"
"A sort of universal dialect is in course of forma-
tion," he rejoined. "Technical advances and sport
are bringing it into being. But Esperanto would
make all the national literatures obsolete and what
would the world be without poesy?"
"Nevertheless, here in Italy I see flagrant con-
tradictions. In your youth you declaimed against
the Austrian Government, which forbade the joiners
72
SOCIALISM AND NATIONALISM
of Bozen to use their native Italian. 'If a language is
forced on us, we shall answer force with force.'
This phrase, penned by a Socialist, that is to say,
by a citizen of the world, cannot be excelled as a
manifestation of national feeling. Well, I cannot but
ask myself, and cannot but ask you,- why to-day
you are not behaving better than the Austrians
did then. "Why, in this respect, likewise, do you not
step forward into the twentieth century?"
"I am stepping forward into the twentieth cen-
tury," replied Mussolini with perfect calm. "The
people of Southern Tyrol are not being coerced.
One hundred and eighty thousand of them are Ger-
mans, and there are also a great many Slav immi-
grants, so that the so-called racial purity does not
exist there. If we teach them Italian, it is in their
own interest as Italian citizens. Nevertheless, they
have German newspapers, German magazines, Ger-
man theatres. We do nothing whatever to cut the
thread of their German descent. If they lived in the
centre of Italy instead of on the frontier, we should
trouble them still less. Of course, a unified speech
is one of the elements of national power. Govern-
ments have always recognised this and all of them
have therefore done their utmost to unify the
national speech."
73
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
"You are talking after the manner of the nine-
teenth century," I said. "Before the war, the policy
of the German empire in Poland and in Alsace was as
shortsighted as are to-day the German and the Polish
policy in the same territories. The authorities did
not or do not feel sure of themselves. What about
the opposite case, when you want immigrants to
retain their national feelings? Do you think it really
important that Italians living in America should
continue to speak their mother tongue? In Chicago
I had a talk with a group of Italians and they spoke
to me in English."
"You are making a mistake," he said. "We con-
sider it a matter of principle to ask our fellow
countrymen to be loyal to the State in which they
live. If they acquire full citizenship in the spiritual
sense as well as in the material, they count for some-
thing; but if they hold themselves aloof from their
adoptive land, they remain helots. Since we began
to advocate the policy of assimilation, many Italian-
born citizens have attained high positions over
there."
"You hold, then," I inquired, "that in matters of
language and of race, too, there is no such thing as
an inevitable fate rousing the nations to mutual
hostility?"
74
SOCIALISM AND NATIONALISM
"Fate!" he cried mockingly. "Statesmen only
talk of fate when they have blundered/*
"A fourth reason for nationalism," I went on,
continuing my analysis, "seems to me to exist uni-
versally in what are called 'the demands of history/
For instance, you once spoke of a colony which be-
longed to classical Rome."
"That was only a literary flourish," said Musso-
lini. "I was speaking of Lybia, which was then un-
peopled. If the government in modern Rome wanted
to claim the territory colonised by classical Rome,
it would have to demand the return of Portugal,
Switzerland, Glasgow, Pannonia, and, indeed, all
western, central, and southern Europe, to the
Italian flag."
When making such statements, which in print
se^m obviously ironical, Mussolini remains per-
fectly serious, and because he therefore wishes to
avoid any mannerisms which would give an abstract
flavour to what he means to be concrete.
By a transition whose details I have forgotten,
I passed on to discuss the physiognomical results of
nationalist education.
"It seems to me that Fascism is changing the faces
of the Italians. I am doubtful if this is a matter for
congratulation. Goethe said that the finger of God
75
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
was more plainly visible in an Italian countenance
than in a German."
"There is a moral reason for the change," said
Mussolini. "Our faces are becoming more tensed.
The will to action modifies the features; even sports
and physical exercise induce changes. That is why
a handicraftsman looks so different from a factory
worker."
"Your head," I rejoined, "has been compared with
that of Colleoni. Like such comparisons in general,
it is only applicable from time to time. You Italians
know full well that the condottieri were not con-
dottieri all the time. Montefeltre was a thinker!"
"Yes," replied Mussolini, "the condottiere is not
a mere brute. Once in his life, perhaps, he may have
been a savage beast. In general, however, these men
were no more savage than their contemporaries. It
was the times that were savage."
"Does the comparison to which I have just re-
ferred please you?" I asked.
Mussolini looked at me with a penetrating glance,
thrust forward his lower jaw, and made no answer.
At that moment he certainly did look like Colleoni.
76
CAUSES OF THE WAR
IN
the Air Ministry, Balbo had been showing me
the whole of his realm, literally from the cellar,
where (as in the case of a great steamship) the work-
ing parts of the big machine were installed, to the
roof on which the officials played tennis in the eve-
ning. The passion for constructive enterprise, which
to-day has mastered even the Italian youth, is here
intertwined with their inborn feeling for beauty.
This building, the latest and the finest in the coun-
try, an edifice of which they are all proud, is half
Russian, half American. In Moscow, I saw a couple
of thousand persons feeding together as practically,
as quickly, and as hygienically as here, where the
luncheon half -hour was rendered agreeable with
music, and where the walls were adorned with cari-
catures of the air service. But in Moscow there
had been three classes of meals, at different prices,
whereas in Rome all the members of the staff, from
the ministers of state down to the youngest of the
secretaries sat down together to eat the same food,
77
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
though they paid a sum ranging from two to seven
lire proportional to their respective salaries. Balbo
was prouder of the pneumatic system, by means of
which he was able to send hot coffee in thermos
flasks to every room of the building, than he was
of his flight to South America.
"He seems to me half a poet," said I, when I was
telling Mussolini of my visit. "The walls of his office
are decorated with oracular sentences."
"Most airmen are poets as well," said Mussolini.
"He has written a book and is a man of all-round
competence."
"What a pity," I remarked, "that in your Air
Ministry ninety per cent, of their energies are de-
voted to war purposes and only ten per cent, to
civilian undertakings. The delight in technical ad-
vances is to-day perpetually dashed by this thought."
"You see spooks everywhere," he said derisively.
"If I do, it is because I cannot forget the experi-
ences of the war years,"
"I have read your book," answered Mussolini,
" 'July 1914,' in which you describe the follies and
the crimes of a handful of statesmen of both parties.
Your account is fully justified. Nevertheless, be-
yond (or, if you like, beneath) diplomatic intrigues,
I discern prof ounder causes of the war. You your-
78
CAUSES OF THE WAR
self say that it is your aim to deal only with July
and to ignore the faults of earlier days. In truth the
war had become inevitable. There had been too great
an accumulation of motives and of tensions; the
drama had to be played out. They had conjured up
the devil and could not but let him wreak his will."
"And yet/* I rejoined, "you yourself have writ-
ten that the unscrupulousness of the European
governments before the war was a disgrace to man-
kind. As late as July, 1914, you were still exclaim-
ing: *Abasso la guerra!' I know that only fanciful
ideologists will complain of you for changing your
views. One who throughout those multifarious hap-
penings remained consistently of the same mind
only showed himself to be a man in whom fixed ideas
prevailed, notwithstanding the power of realities.
What really concerns us to-day is to understand the
motives of those who made the war. Yesterday
Marchese X., one of the negotiators of the Peace of
Versailles, informed me that hunger was the main
reason why Italy entered the war, for your coun-
try, he said, was in this respect troubled far more
than Greece by the British fleet. At first there was
no interference with the food supply of Greece/*
Laying his arms on the table, Mussolini leaned
forward. This is his combative attitude, but when
79
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
he assumes it he is collected and resolute, self-
controlled and clear-minded.
"The motive of hunger," he said, "played its part;
but it was not decisive. No doubt, for purely geo-
graphical reasons, the position of our peninsula was
a dangerous one. But in this matter, too, my
thoughts are revolutionary. The declaration of neu-
trality was the first revolutionary demonstration
against the government which, on theoretical
grounds, considered itself bound to the Central
Powers. You know all about Count Berchtold's in-
fringement of the treaties/*
I replied:
"If, at that time, Italy was inspired by so pro-
found a sense of allegiance to France, why was it
that no one remembered that at Villafranca, in
1859, France robbed Italy of half the fruits of vic-
tory, whereas it was Prussia which, through the
wars of 1866 and 1870 against Austria and France
respectively, first established the foundations which
made the unification of Italy possible."
He nodded and answered:
"What you say is perfectly true. But there were
a number of opposing moral considerations,, the in-
vasion above all. On the other hand, at that period,
France was greatly loved, and French propaganda
80
CAUSES OF THE WAR
could make play with democracy, the Freemasons,
and other elements. More especially, the Habsburgs
were detested. If_was_against.-Austria -rather -than
against Germany that we came into the war. Vari-
ous trends were at work coalescing to make a mighty
current. The nationalists wanted expansion; the
democrats wanted Trent; the syndicalists wanted
war in the hope that it would lead to a revolution.
That was my own position at this juncture. For the
first time, the great majority of the nation was
actively opposed to the parliamentarians and the
politicians. I made common cause with persons of
the latter way of thinking."
"Could not you have gained your end at less
cost?" I asked. "When the Socialists in Berlin and in
Paris rallied to the side of their respective war-
making governments, their conduct was, in point of
principle, unpardonable, but it was comprehensible
enough, for in each country the general belief was
that the other had been the aggressor. Italy alone
was in the fortunate position of being able to main-
tain an armed neutrality, which would have enabled
her, with an intact army, by mere threats to com-
pel the exhausted victors to make extensive con-
cessions to her at the end of the war. Why did not
Italy adopt this course? There was a great deal of
81
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
talk at that time about national honour, and you
yourself often used the phrase. "Was it 'national
honour* which induced you to take up the sword?"
"Nobody likes a neutral," said Mussolini, "but this
was no more than a primary, a sentimental, motive.
jThe most important factor was our conviction that,
no matter which side was victorious, we should, as
neutrals, find ourselves at the close of the war faced
by a coalition. Germany as victor would never have
forgiven us for our neutrality; and, had we stood
aside, at Paris the Entente would have treated us
even more contemptuously than she treated the
Central Powers, We had to reckon with the possi-
bility that it would be necessary to take up arms
against a combination of States, war-wearyjitcfligh
they might be. My third motive was a personal one.
I wanted to bring about the rebirth oiXtalv and
I have fulfilled my end."
"But it was your own party," I objected, which
had annulled or at any rate weakened, the nation-
alist spirit of Italy! Well, you left the party and
declared yourself free. Did that mean free from
dogma or free from party?"
"Free from party," he replied. "But even as an
ex-Socialist I cannot accept your statement of the
case. However it may have been in other lands, here
82
CAUSES OF THE WAR
in Italy Socialism was a unifying factor. All Italian
historians have recognised this. The Socialists of Italy
were advocates of one idea and of one nation. From
1892, when they cut adrift from the anarchists at
the Congress of Genoa, down till 1911, they battled
on behalf of a united Italy. Then came internal dis-
putes and conflicting trends and therewith the de-
cline of the movement began. It was at this juncture
that I became convinced of the need for a great
stirring of the whole people to consolidate the moral
unity of our nation with or without Socialism/*
"But supposing/' I inquired, "that the German
and the French Socialists had taken a firm stand
against the war, or had at least voted against the
war credits, what would have been your atti-
tude?"
"In that case the whole situation would have been
different," he exclaimed. "Had the French and the
German Socialists taken such a line, everything
would have run a different course."
"What did you think about the murder of
Jaures?"
Mussolini pondered a while before answering.
"I knew him personally," he said. "When he was
assassinated, I looked upon his death as one of those
fatalities which modify the trend of events."
83
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
"Would Italy have remained neutral but for
you?"
"There were three of us working towards the
same end," said Mussolini. "D'Annunzio, who had
years before aroused enthusiasm for the fleet by his
Odi navali and now made a fervent appeal to the
university students and to the Italian youth in gen-
eral; Corridono, the working-class leader, who sub-
sequently fell at the front; and I myself, who trans-
formed the Socialist Party. 3 *
"I have been told that when the Party expelled
you, you shouted, in answer to the hissing and invec-
tive which arose from all parts of the hall, 'You hate
me because you still love me!' That was a fine saying.
I suppose it really happened?"
He nodded assent and thereupon I questioned him
once more about his early nationalist leanings, fie
said:
"As long ago as 1911, when I was still a member
of the Socialist Party, I wrote that the Gordian knot
of Trent could be cut only by the sword. At the
same date I declared that war is usually the prelude
to revolution. It was therefore easy for me, when
the Great War broke out, to predict the Russian
and the German revolutions."
"You were under the spell of the notion that there
84
CAUSES OF THE WAR
were 'two Germanys' and believed in all the tales
of atrocities!"
"Yes," he agreed. "I continued to admire German
literature and music but at the same time I believed
in the story of the Belgian horrors. Subsequently,
when they were refuted, I publicly acknowledged
as much in the Senate, to the astonishment of cer-
tain Belgians. Such horrors as occurred were simply
the horrors of the war and not German atrocities in
particular. An Italian pastor, a Protestant, domiciled
in the United States, was sent to Belgium during the
war to collect evidence regarding these alleged Ger-
man atrocities. He wrote me a remarkable letter, to
the effect that he had done his utmost to find sub-
stantiation, for this was needed to use in war propa-
ganda. 'Unfortunately, although I spent months
upon the search, I could not discover any atroci-
ties.' "
"It seems, then," I concluded, "that you waged
your own war and made your own revolution.
Both of them with success. In the sense of Nietzsche,
a sense which combines your views and mine, let
me ask you what was your predominant motive?
There was little to complain of in Austrian rule
in the Tridentino, and you had always been a sav-
age critic of the Italian bureaucracy. The only way
85
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
in which I can account for your forcible severance
from your past is by supposing that you wanted to
govern in accordance with your particular fancy.
Is it true that your main purpose was to refashion
Italy in accordance with your own vision?"
"That was it,** he answered decisively.
"I am glad to have your acknowledgment. Most
men would be afraid to make it and would wrap
up their purposes in a cloud of phraseology/*
He eyed me gloomily and said, "I have never tried
to prove an alibi."
ON THE ROAD TO POWER
JVLuSSOLINI looked pale and out of humour in
the lamplight. He ruffled the newspaper in his hand
as I came to the end of the twenty yards' promenade
from the door to his desk. This was not unen-
cumbered as usual, for on it there lay a thick pile
of documents. I knew that the two men who had
left him a minute or two before my arrival were
bank directors, so I said:
"You are tired this evening. Would you rather
postpone our conversation?"
"I have had to study the balance sheet of the
Banca di Roma," he said, resting his chin on his
hand. "Never mind. Let's have our talk. It will be
a relaxation."
The strain he had been undergoing was manifest
in the curtness of his subsequent rejoinders. I in-
quired:
"Had you not many such moments of fatigue, of
discouragement, during the war? In your articles,
especially in the later ones, you write so bitterly
87
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
about fraternity that I read into them disillusion-
ment concerning all that happened, even the vic-
tory. In one of them you said that the germs of
decay are hidden in a victorious nation. That remark
is rather too philosophic for a man of action. 5 *
He pulled down the corners of his mouth and
stared at me vacantly as he replied:
"Was it not enough to make a man weary when
these symptoms of decay persisted for years after
the victory? Every nation engaged in the war made
heroic efforts; but it seemed to us here in Italy as
if we were being deprived of the reward of victory/*
"I can understand that you felt yourselves to
have been cheated in Paris/' said I. "But why did you
and your adherents speak of a Fiume f sacrificato, 9
merely because your friends of yesterday, the Allies,
continued to hold the place? A man who at that
time was a prominent figure said to me that Fiume
was only thrust into the foreground by the refer-
endum, and that the sole reason why Orlando, the
arch-parliamentarian, made such a to-do about it
was that it had become a popular catchword. Why
should Fiume have developed into a sort of holy of
holies just after the war, as if it had played a great
part in Italian history and civilisation like Florence
or Bologna? 3 *
88
ON THE ROAD TO POWER
He continued to gaze into vacancy and said:
"You are wrong in thinking that that was a mere
matter of parliamentary finesse. Fiume was an
Italian town, as dear to us as any other. In Fiume,
just as in Trieste and Trent, there were Irredentists
who wanted their native city to become part of
Italy."
I alluded to the fact that the number of inhabi-
tants of Fiume who had acclaimed D'Annunzio's
raid had, after all, not been very large.
"He was idolised by the people! Naturally such a
situation as arose there tends to become oppressive
after twelve months or so. Still, there can be no
doubt whatever that we owe Fiume to D'Annunzio."
He said this bluntly, without sign of emotion, as
one who utters a historical truth about which there
can be no question. I went on to speal of the peace,
quoted some of the utterances of the delegates to
Versailles, and proceeded to inquire:
"Do you blame Orlando for the losses of Italy at
the Peace Conference? Was his character flawed?
According to certain Fascists, he was one of the
most unsatisfactory of mortals."
"The diplomatic situation was unfavourable.
Other men than he might have made a mess of
things in Paris/*
89
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
"Why, then, was the feeling in Italy so bitter?
Considering the victors in the war objectively, it
can certainly be maintained that Italy was the only
one who not merely conquered her chief enemy,
but annihilated that enemy/*
"We know that."
Seeing that I could get no farther along this line,
I returned to the question of the Socialist attitude
during the war, hoping that that would provide a
stimulus.
"Really your own case resembled that of your
country," said I. "You were the only man who anni-
hilated his own particular foe. But what does that
prove against the system, if during the years from
1918 to 1921 the socialist leaders were weaklings?
Were not some of your generals incompetent during
the war, and yet your troops were victorious?"
"Some. But still there was a mass movement!"
"And was this mass movement to be fought only
with its own means? The burning of Avanti, the
destruction of the telegraphic apparatus were not
these Russian tactics?"
"Much the same. Our tactics were decidedly Rus-
sian/ 3
This curt, military style of answering was unusual
in him, but to-day it was a manifestation of fatigue,
90
ON THE ROAD TO POWER
and perhaps in conformity with the military trend
of his thoughts at the moment. I tried to give the
conversation a new turn.
"Is it true that in the year 1921 you were in-
clined to renounce the leadership of your youthful
party?"
"No," he snapped, as ungraciously as before. "I
told them they must accept my ideas or I should
quit. It was necessary to transform a mob into a
party. 55
"Why did you hold back for a year when many
of your followers wanted to take instant action?"
"It would have been a mistake/ 5
"I have been told by a friend of mine that when,
at that date, you visited the Wilhelmstrasse, you said:
*At this juncture there are only two parties in Italy,
myself and the King! 5 55
"That's all right. 55
"And when subsequently, in the autumn of 1922,
you sent your conditions to the Facta administra-
tion, were you confident that he would reject
them? 55
"Certainly. Wanted to gain time. 55
"What do you think of generals who break their
oath of allegiance to an established government in
order to make a revolution and set up a new one
91
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
like the four who participated in your March on
Rome?"
"In certain historical crises that must happen. 55
"Your proclamation was printed before you set
out. Hadn't you the feeling that you were fore-
stalling things?"
"There wasn't a moment to lose."
"How do you account for the fact that there
was no resistance to your March on Rome? It was
just like what happened in Germany on November
9, 1918."
"Same reasons; obsolete system."
"I have been told that the King had already signed
an ordinance declaring a state of siege."
"The ministers had decided on this course, but the
King refused to sign, even when pressed to do so a
second time."
"Suppose the King had agreed, and a state of siege
had been declared, would you have felt sure of
victory even in the case of resistance?"
"We held the valley of the Po and it is there that
the fate of Italy has always been decided."
"How could you, a soldier, be content during
those last weeks to stay so far from the centre of
action?"
"I was in command at Milan."
92
ON THE ROAD TO POWER
"When you received the King's telegram asking
you to take over the government, were you sur-
prised or had you expected it?"
"Expected."
"When on your way to Rome, were you in the
mood of an artist who is about to begin his work,
or in that of a prophet who is fulfilling a mission?"
"Artist/ 9
He was too laconic for my taste, and so, in the
hope of bringing about a little relaxation, I had re-
course to an anecdote.
"Do you remember what Napoleon said to his
brother when they entered the Tuileries after the
coup d'etat? 'Well, here we are. Let's see to it that
we stay here!' "
It was a palpable hit. Mussolini laughed. The spell
the bank directors had laid upon his nerves was
broken. His customary serenity had returned, so
that he could speak once more in his usual voice and
formulate his views at reasonable length. When I
went on to question him about his personal, his
mental preparation for the role of leadership, he
thrust the thick balance sheet aside, laid his arms on
the table in front of him, and then became reminis-
cent.
"I was prepared as far as broad lines were con-
93
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
earned, but not in matters of detail. To begin with,
I was overburdened with work. Within forty-eight
hours I had to get fifty-two thousand revolutionary-
soldiers out of the capital and to see to it that these
excited young men were held in leash. During the
first days the most important affair was to keep the
machinery running. But I, who had to do this,
lacked first-hand knowledge of the machinery of
administration. I promptly dismissed some of the
leading officials, but I left a great many of them
where they were. It was incumbent upon me to
convince the most important civil servants, during
the very first weeks, that we were not to be trifled
with. They were a danger to me but at the outset I
had to trust them."
"That," I said, "was what took all the fire out of
the German revolution. The old permanent officials
were stronger than the new leaders and humbugged
them. But how does one begin a new regime? Is it
like setting up a monument, or building a house in
the forest, when one begins by clearing a lot of
trees to make room?"
"That is an interesting simile," he said alertly.
"Most revolutions begin with a hundred per cent.,
but little by little the new spirit evaporates, becomes
diluted with the old. Concessions are made, now
94
ON THE ROAD TO POWER
here, now there; and before long your revolution
has declined to fifty per cent., or less. 55
"That is what happened in Germany/* I inter-
jected.
"We did it the reverse way. I began with fifty per
cent. "Why? Because history had taught me that the
courage of most revolutionists begins to fail after
the first alarums and excursions. I started with a
coalition and it was six months before I dismissed
the Catholics. In other countries, revolutionists have
by degrees become more complaisant; but here in
Italy, year by year, we have grown more radical,
more stubborn. Not until last year, for instance, did
I insist upon the university professors swearing
allegiance. I took the democrats as I found them and
I gave the Socialists the opportunity of participating
in the government. Turati, who died yesterday,
would perhaps have agreed to this, but Baldesi and
other men of his sort obstinately refused their
chances. Since I had planned a complete renovation
of my country, I had to accustom it gradually to the
new order of things and to make use of the out-
standing forces of the old order. The Russians were
in a different position. The old order had utterly
collapsed and they could clear the ground com-
pletely in order to build their house in the forest.
95
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
But where should we have been to-day if I had set
out by making a clean sweep?"
He was full of vivacity once more, all signs of
fatigue having vanished.
"Your enemies gave you a helping hand/* I said,
"by marching out of parliament. I suppose that
suited your book and that you had looked forward
to it?"
"Of course!" he exclaimed. "They had with-
drawn to the Sacred Mount, and that is a hill which
brings misfortune to all who climb it."
"In the army," I said, "in the course of the rev-
olution you have made, did you find more good
will and talent to begin with or later?"
"Later. To-day people have faith in it!"
"Did you anticipate this? Did you expect to sit
ten years or longer at this table?"
He made a whimsical grimace, rolling his eyes as
if to inspire fear, but laughing at the same time as
if to counteract the impression. Then he said, in low
tones, and assuming a playful air of mystery:
"I came here in order to stay as long as possible."
96
PART THREE
THE PROBLEMS OF POWER
THE MANAGEMENT OF MEN
H,
JS equanimity, his imperturbable patience,
had been fully restored, when, next day at the same
hour, I found him at his writing table. In the interim
I had been mentally rehearsing the activities in
which I supposed him to have been engaged, the
ordinary routine of his daily life. When staying with
friends in the country I have sometimes asked my-
self what has been happening to them between our
good-night and our greeting when we meet next
day at luncheon. The same general aspect, the same
clothing, and yet each one of us has grown a day
older and has had intervening experiences, perhaps
ordinary, perhaps extraordinary. Mussolini, whom
now for several days in succession I had encountered
in his office, wearing the same suit of clothes, was
engaged in multifarious activities during the period
that elapsed between our interviews; yet each time
he seemed, as it were, screwed into the place where he
awaited me. An editorial office, with its comings and
99
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
goings and its lively discussions, is a much more
animated place than a ministerial office. Perhaps no
chance experience, nothing unexpected, had be-
fallen him. These reflections influenced my method
of approach.
"Although your rise to power has brought you
many advantages, it must have cost you a good deal
as well. It must have cost you the pleasure of living
in a familiar home, the power to walk whithersoever
you please in the evening after an exciting day, the
perpetual stimulus of opposition, the enthralling
freedom of being unfair on occasion. At the same
time it must have entailed upon you the duties of a
representative position and the difficulties that
attach to a man who can never escape the public
gaze. I have been told that soon after the March on
Rome you penned an effective phrase: 'One can
move from a tent into a palace if one is ready, in
case of need, to return to the tent/ Still, it seems
to me that such a change of habit must be difficult
for a man of forty or thereabouts."
"The change was easier than you imagine," an-
swered Mussolini. "I should have liked to go on
living in Milan; but Rome, a city to which I had be-
fore paid only occasional visits, exerted an emotional
charm. This historical soil has a magic of its own.
100
THE MANAGEMENT OF MEN
The fact that I am at work in Rome, that I live in
Rome, has during the last ten years given me food
for much thought. "When I want privacy, I have the
garden of the Villa Torlonia, where I live; and the
fact that I keep a fine horse there is the chief boon
which the rise to power has bestowed upon my
private life. Nor have I changed my daily habits
much. I have become more temperate than ever,
more inclined towards vegetarianism, and I rarely
drink wine. Still, these habits are not with me a
matter of strict principle and I actually encourage
the drinking of wine in Italy. I have always
been averse to the distractions of what is termed
'society. 5 When I have been working all day with
others at this table, I have a better use than 'social
diversions* for my evenings, in which I go on work-
ing alone, and for my nights, when I need sleep. I
have always been an orderly and meticulously
regular sort of man. "When I was a newspaper editor,
my writing table was just as tidy as this one, and
every minute of my day was planned out so that I
could cram as much work into it as possible."
"You describe a Goethean technique," I replied.
"One of the ambassadors in Rome recently said to
me, somewhat naively, e The Duce has an easier time
than we; he does not need to go into society. Had I
101
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
his advantage in this respect, I could get through
much more work than I do/ "
He laughed, and went on:
"I was prepared for my present position by a life
that has always been lonely. I cannot live in any
other way. My only trouble has been that I have
always been sensitive to bad weather. But you are
right in this respect, that reasons of state tend to
make the statesman's life a narrow one. Just because
they are reasons of State!"
"It is strange, 5 ' I said, "how many things the
wielding of power teaches a man to renounce."
"Like every passion," he said gently.
"Which passion is stronger, the revolutionary
or the constructive?"
"Both are interesting," he answered swiftly. "It
depends, moreover, upon the age at which one is
engaged upon revolution or construction, as the
case may be. A man of forty or fifty will incline
rather towards constructive work, especially when
he has had a revolutionary past/*
"In that respect," said I, "your career differs from
those which it otherwise most resembles. Bismarck,
like Victor Emmanuel, did not reach his Rome so
early as you. To both of them the great opportunity
came after the years in which a man has done the
102
THE MANAGEMENT OF MEN
bulk of his work. But what you say about the con-
structive trend in middle age makes it all the more
difficult to understand why, after ten years of con-
struction, you Fascists are still talking of a per-
manent revolution. It reminds me of Trotsky's
theory."
"The reasons are different, however. We need to
speak of permanent revolution because the phrase
exerts a mystical influence upon the masses. It is
stimulating, too, for persons of higher intelligence.
When we talk of permanent revolution, we imply
that the times are exceptional, and we give the man
in the street a feeling that he is participating in an
extraordinary movement. The actual fact is that
construction began right away. Not that it was easy!
Thousands of ardent soldiers had to be reconverted
into orderly citizens. A revolution can indeed be
made without the aid of soldiers but it cannot be
made in defiance of soldiers. It is possible when the
army is neutral but not when the army is antago-
nistic. Besides, during the first year, I had to rid my-
self of a hundred and fifty thousand Fascists in
order to make the party a more concentrated force.
Not until later could I begin to train an elite in
order to transform crude force into orderly gov-
ernment."
103
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
"Where did you encounter the greatest resistance
in this respect? Did the nobility prove refractory?"
Whenever a fresh theme of the sort was in-
troduced a theme which he must have rehearsed
a hundred times he would thrust forward his
chin for a moment, like a conductor using his baton,
and would speak more quickly than usual.
"Resistance came mainly from the upper classes,
but not from the 1 aristocracy. Our titled families
proved friendly. Here in Italy they do not form a
caste apart, like the Prussian Junkers, but want to be
on good terms with the people. You will see Prince
Colonna, for instance, talking familiarly with his
coachman."
I spoke of his sometime comrades, asked him
whether he had been able to find suitable posts for
them all, and whether, in general, he promoted men
of marked ability regardless of the question of pre-
cedence.
"My former comrades," he replied, "were given
leading positions insofar as they were fit for them.
Seniority does not concern us, whether in the front
ranks or the rear, but in general we give the
preference to youth. I was prompt to put able young
men in responsible positions. I had watched Grandi,
Stefani, Volpi, Gentile, and others at work, had
104
THE MANAGEMENT OF MEN
conversed with them freely. I am delighted when
such men act on their own initiative/*
"Such men/* I said, "can more readily be super-
vised when they are in high positions than in low.
But what do you do when one of your aides casts
doubts upon the trustworthiness of another? What
means have you for deciding whether an official is
loyal or disloyal? How can you avoid being cheated
by those who are playing for their own hand? How
do you discover the secret aims of some one newly
appointed to office?"
Mussolini fidgeted a little in his chair. No doubt
after spending many hours in conversation with his
underlings, he is apt to feel restless, but never once
did he get up to walk about during our talks. I saw
that now he was turning my questions over and
over in his mind and ranging them in order before he
replied.
"In front of this writing table there are two
adjoining chairs, in one of which you are now sitting.
If there is a dispute between two officials, I summon
them both to these chairs and make them unfold
their grievances as they sit opposite to me, equidis-
tant, and compelled to look at each other while
they do so. If suspicion falls on any one in the employ
of the State or the Party, I give him a chance of
10J
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
defending himself here by word of mouth, provided
that the matter is not a grave one. In more serious in-
stances, he has to write out his defence. Sometimes
I keep an eye on the private life of my people, study
their handwriting, and always take their physiog-
nomy into account, when I wish to draw conclusions
as to their trustworthiness. My motto in these
matters has invariably been to listen patiently and
to decide justly. In the case of a newcomer, my first
question is not how he can help me, but what ad-
vantage he is seeking when he applies to me."
I asked him how he protected himself against false
information and against the betrayal of secrets.
"The important offices in the country are for the
most part held by trustworthy Fascists. If loyalty
does not suffice to make them run straight, there is
the powerful motive of fear in addition, for they
know that they are being watched. The penalty for
betrayal is formidable, but has very seldom to be
inflicted, for I do not allow documents of moment
to pass through many hands."
"But how do you safeguard yourself against the
most dangerous persons of the modern world
against the experts?"
"As far as experts are concerned," he rejoined,
"I generally summon two rivals to sit in these chairs
106
THE MANAGEMENT OF MEN
and expound their projects. Of course a financial or
military expert may demand from me, as chief of
the government, a decision upon some matter con-
cerning which I am not sufficiently well informed.
In such a case, my only resource is to do my utmost
to master the topic. As far as externals are con-
cerned, our business is facilitated by the speed at
which we work. Needless formalities and red tape
were scrapped the very first day I came into power."
He handed me a document.
"Here you will see a report from the Minister for
Agriculture, and my notes on it, which will go back
to him for examination. You know that we have
done away with hand-shaking? The Roman greeting
is more hygienic, more tasteful, and wastes less
time."
After the discussion of these externals, I turned
to psychological problems, asking:,
"How do you bind people to you most closely,
by honour or by money? By praise or by material
advantages? By force or by persuasion? Moreover, is
it possible for the chief of the State, in a country
where freedom of the press does not exist, to make
himself acquainted with the mood which prevails
throughout the country?"
At the last inquiry, he knitted his brows and
107
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
looked at me suspiciously, as if wondering who could
have prompted me to introduce this thorny
question. With him, during our talks, such un-
easiness was never more than momentary. Any one
with whom he has agreed to discuss matters freely
will find it easy enough to stand fire for a second or
two, for then his brow will clear and he will give a
tranquil answer.
"I have been able to bind men to me more closely
by honour and by persuasion than by money or by
force. I use praise with moderation, for praise is
certainly a stimulus, but it is one which speedily
loses its effect. In all countries, truth lies at the
bottom of a well. One has to plumb the well and
discover how deep it is. I deny, however, that
freedom of the press makes it easier to ascertain the
truth or, indeed, that freedom of the press
exists anywhere. Nowadays, where the press is
nominally free, economic or political interests are
really in control of the newspapers. I have various
sources of information: prefects, ministers, private
citizens. Perhaps the truth comes to me more slowly,
but it comes in the end."
"The whole truth?" I interrupted.
"No one ever learns the whole truth. But there
108
THE MANAGEMENT OF MEN
are many signs to disclose the general mood. Before
all, I trust my own insight, what I call my 'sixth
sense/ It is indefinable."
"Nevertheless," I said, "a good many cases have
shown that truth sometimes filters through to you
very slowly. You say that the integrity of your
officials is the basis of state life. In Russia cases of
corruption are discovered. Don't you think that
public trials after the Russian manner may be use-
ful? What do you think of the Russian plan of pay-
ing ministers of state as little as possible as if in
the Republic of Plato? 5 *
"Our ministers receive from three to four thou-
sand lire a month, which is less than the salaries paid
in most democratic countries. Misconduct on the
part of officials is punished here as severely and as
publicly as in Russia. A Fascist who is detected in
misconduct will make away with himself. The Party
secretary in Leghorn blew out his brains because
he had embezzled funds. The mayor of San Remo
shot himself in the catacombs; the manager of the
civil engineering works at Naples drowned himself:
both of them merely because they had been sum-
moned to come to see me, although not proved
guilty. From what I read about corruption in demo-
109
TALKS WITH MUSSOLINI
cratic States, I do not think that we have any cause
to complain. There is no form of government which
can eradicate human fallibility."
Turning to a more personal matter, I asked him
how, in view of his knowledge of human nature, he
dealt with himself.
"Although you say that you have a synthetic
mind, I regard you as primarily analytical. Tliis
combination is not an infrequent one. I assume,
therefore, that you devote a good deal of attention
to the thought of your adve
