\ y^ us Doc 2.791
^72-Z
Committee on Un-American Activities
House
87th Congress
Table of Contents
1, Testimony By and Concerning Paul Corbin "i\t^
2, The Commimist Party's Cold War Against
Congressional Investigation of Subversion Vi^<
3. Communist and Trotskyist Activity Within
the Greater Los Angeles Chapter of the
Fair Play for Cuba Committee
}^Z(:
k^3* Commimist Outlets for the Distribution of ^t^f
Soviet Propaganda in the United States,
pt.1-2
6. Communist Youth Activities ^t^b
7-8. U.S. Communist Party Assistance to Foreign -^it^
Communist Governments, pt.1-2 /*^>f ^^
9. Commimist Activities in the Peace Movement '%ft'^
/
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING
PAUL CORBIN
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OE REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-SEVENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
Since these hearings are consecutively
paged, they are arranged by page number
instead of alphabetically by title
UNIVERSITY
LI'' ^ RY
. SEP 5 1963
U.S. GOVERX.MEXT PRINTING OFFICE
87845 WASHINGTON : 1962
/ i )
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING
PAUL CORBIN
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON TJN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OE REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-SEVENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
SEPTEMBER 6 AND 13, 1961 ; NOVEMBER 13, 27, AND 28, 1961 ;
AND MARCH 15 AND JULY 2, 1962
INCLUDING INDEX
Printed for the use of the
Committee on Un-American Activities
NivEkSITY
L I ^ ^ RY
^-""r I Mill,
U.S. GOVERX.MEXT PRINTING OFFICE
87845 WASHINGTON : 1962
^•^
■^--6
w
iOTIVITIES
ENTATIVES
, Chairman
SCHERER, Ohio
rOHANSEN, Michigan
BRUCE, Indiana
:HADEBERG, Wisconsin
\or
Counsel
I
I
COMJVnTTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
United States House of Representatives
FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania, Chairman
MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio
CLYDE DOYLE, California AUGUST B. JOHANSEN, Michigan
EDWIN B. WILLIS, Louisiana DONALD C. BRUCE, Indiana
WILLIAM M. TUCK, Virginia HENRY C. SCHADEBERG, Wisconsin
Francis J. McNamara, Director
Fbank S. Tavennee, Jr., General Counsel
Alfred M. Nittle, Counsel
John C. Walsh, Co-counsel
II
CONTENTS
Page
Committee resolution vn
September 6, 1961 : Testimony of :
John Dominick Giacomo 1236
November 13, 1961 : Testimony of :
Harold Seott 1263
September 13, 1961 : Testimony of :
Walter T. Anderson 1279
November 27, 1961 : Testimony of :
Joseph C. Kennedy 1285
Afternoon session :
Edward S. Kerstein 1312
Fred Bassett Blair 1320
Islimael Flory 1323
Kenneth Born 1330
Seena Powell 1337
November 28, 1961 : Testimony of :
Emil Costello 1343
March 15, 1962 : Testimony of :
Esther Wickstrom 1348
Perry E. Wilgus 1354
July 2, 1962 : Testimony of :
Paul Corbin I373
Afternoon session :
Paul Corbin (resumed) 1415
Appendix I455
Index I
III
Public Law 601, 79th Congress
The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress [1946] ; 60 Stat.
812, which provides :
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America in Congress assembled, * * *
PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Rule X
SEC. 121. STANDING COMMITTEES
*******
17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine Members.
Rttle XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities.
(A) Un-American activities.
(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit-
tee, is authorized to malce from time to time investigations of (i) the extent,
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and at-
tacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution,
and (iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any
necessary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by such chairman or member.
Rule XII
LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT BY STANDING COMMITTEES
Sec. 136. To assist the Congress in appraising the administration of the laws
and in developing such amendments or related legislation as it may deem neces-
sary, each standing committee of the Senate and the House of Representatives
shall exercise continuous watchfulness of the execution by the administrative
agencies concerned of any laws, the subject matter of which is within the juris-
diction of such committee: and, for that purpose, shall study all pertinent
reports and data submitted to the Congress by the agencies in the executive
branch of the Government.
RULES ADOPTED BY THE 87TH CONGRESS
House Resolution 8, January 3, 1961
• •*•**♦
Rule X
STANDING COMMITTEES
1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Congress,
*******
(r) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine Members.
*******
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
*******
18. Committee on Un-American Activities.
(a) Un-American activities.
(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee,
is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (1) the extent, char-
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American prop-
aganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in
any necessary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
27. To assist the House in appraising the administration of the laws and in
developing such amendments or related legislation as it may deem necessary,
each standing committee of the House shall exercise continuous watchfulness
of the execution by the administrative agencies concerned of any laws, the subject
matter of which is within the jurisdiction of such committee ; and, for that pur-
pose, shall study all peitinent reports and data submitted to the House by the
agencies in the executive branch of the Government.
VI
Committee Resolution Authorizing Investigation and Hearings
After a preliminary investigation conducted under authority of
Representative Francis E. Walter, chairman of the Committee on
Un-American Activities, tlie committee adopted the following reso-
lution on the 22d day of November, 1961 :
BE IT RESOLVED:
( 1 ) That hearings be held in the Old House Office Building
in Washington, D.C., beginning on November 27, 1961, or on
such other date or dates as the Chairman of the Committee
may determine, and continued f ix)m day to day, time to time,
and place to place, until the hearings are completed, and that
the staff of the Committee be authorized to conduct investiga-
tions deemed reasonably necessary in preparation therefor,
relating to the occupation by past or present members or
affiliates of the Communist Party of positions affecting the
national interest, in order to keep this Committee and the
Congress informed of the extent and character of such activ-
ities so that Congress may enact legislation outlawing the
Communist Party, or take other remedial legislative action
in the national defense and for internal security, when and if
the exigencies of the situation require it.
(2) Any other matter within the jurisdiction of the Com-
mittee which it or any subcommittee thereof, appointed to
conduct these hearings, may designate.
(3) That the action of the Chairman designating that the
hearings relating to the above subject be held on the 27th
and 28th days of November, 1961, and his action in issuing
and causing to be served subpoenas for the appearance of
witnesses before the Committee and the continuance of such
subpoenas for the appearance of witnesses to the 27th and 28th
days of November, 1961, are hereby approved and confirmed.
vn
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
wednesday, september 6, 1961
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D.C.
executive session ^
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met,
pursuant to call, at 10 a.m., in Room 215, Old House Office Building,
Hon. Clyde Doyle (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
Subcommittee members present: Representatives Clyde Doyle, of
California, and Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio.
Committee members also present : Representatives August E. Jo-
hansen, of Michigan; Donald C. Bruce, of Indiana; and Henry C.
Schadeberg, of Wisconsin.
Staff members present : Frank S. Tavenner, eJr., director; Alfred M.
Nittle, counsel ; and Neil E. Wetterman, investigator.
Mr. Doyle. The committee will please come to order. Let the
record show that the subcommittee for this morning consists of Hon.
Morgan M. ISIoulder, of Missouri ; Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio ; and
myself, Clyde Doyle, of California, as chairman. Let the record also
show that Mr. Scherer and Mr. Doyle are present, therefore, a ma-
jority of the subcommittee. I will also name the other committee
memlDers we are pleased to have with us, Mr. Johansen, Mr. Bruce,
and Mr. Schadeberg.
Let the record at this point show the appointment of the subcom-
mittee.
September 5, 1961.
To : Mr. Frank S. Tavenner, Jr.
Director
House Committee on Un-American Activities
Pursuant to the provisions of the law and the Rules of this Committee, I
hereby appoint a subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities,
consisting of Honorable Morgan M. Moulder and Honorable Gordon H. Scherer
as associate members, and Clyde Doyle, as Chairman, to conduct a hearing in
Washington, D.C, Wednesday, September 6, 1961, at 10:00 a.m., on subjects
under investigation by the Committee and take such testimony on said days
or succeeding days, as it may deem necessary.
Please make this action a matter of Committee record.
If any Member indicates his inability to serve, please notify me.
Given under my hand this 5th day of September, 1961.
/s/ Francis E. Walter
Francis E. Walter, Chairman,
Committee on Un-American Activities.
1 Released by the committee and ordered to be printed.
1235
1236 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. DoTLE. ^Mio is the witness this morning ?
Mr. Ta\tenner. Mr. Giacomo.
]!ilr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you
are about to give l3efore the committee will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothmg but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Giacomo. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN DOMINICK GIACOMO
Mr. Tavenner. '\Yliat is your name?
Mr. Giacomo. John Giacomo.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Spell your name, please.
Mr. Giacomo. G-i-a-c-o-m-o.
Mr. Tavenxer. Do you have a middle initial ?
Mr. Giacomo. "D" for Dominick.
Mr. Tavenner, Wliere do you reside, Mr. Giacomo ?
Mr. Giacomo. 336 East Van Norman Avenue, Milwaukee 7, Wis.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is the date of your birth ?
Mr. Giacomo. May 30, 1908.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee briefly please, what
your employment background has been? First, tell the committee
what your present employment is.
Mr. Giacomo. I am with the United Steelworkers of America, AFL-
CIO.
Mr. Tavenner. In what capacity ?
Mr. Giacomo. I am known as a staff representative, which is what
all of the people in the district or in the field are known as. I spe-
cialize, if you can call this a specialty, in the legislative and political
action work of District 32 for and on behalf of the United Steel-
workers of America.
Mr. Tavenner. What is the geographical area within District 32?
Mr. Giacomo. All of the counties in the State of Wisconsin, with
the exception of the northern counties that form the northern border
of the State. That is over in the Michigan-Minnesota District 33,
and all are part of the Seventh Congressional District in Illinois, com-
prising some 28 or 29 counties. Our district runs from the northern
border of North Chicago and it follows the Rock River substantially
down to Peoria, and all of that area from the Rock River west to the
west border of Ohio is in our district, down as far as Peoria, 111.
Mr. Tavenner. What has been your employment from 1937 up
until the time that you became employed in the manner in which you
have just described ?
Mr. Giacomo. In 1937 I was employed at the Hamischfeger Corp.
in Milwaukee as an arc welder. I worked there from 1937 until
February 10, 1943, I am quite sure, to the best of my recollection —
that could or could not be the specific date — at which time I went
with the Office of Labor Production of the War Production Board.
I was asked to do that by the late Philip Murray, who was the late
president of the United Steelworkers of America.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that in 1943 ?
Mr. Giacomo. Yes, sir. I served practically 1 year to the day in
the district office in Milwaukee. Then I was transferred to the re-
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1237
gional office in Chicago as regional head of the i^roduction office in
Chicago. I served there a year, you might say, to the day, so I served
2 full years with the War Production Board.
I resigned from the War Production Board at that time and went
back — it was my intention to go back into private industry again, back
at Harnischfeger's. In the meantime 1 received n.y "greetings^' from
the President. I took my physical and passed it and was OK'd for
general military service. Because of my marital status — I had a
daughter around 13 or 14 years old — I was told to so arrange my
affairs to be prepared for a call on 24-hour notice in case I was needed.
I don't mind saying here that they did not only scrape the bottom of
the barrel when" they called me, but the bottom of the barrel was there
when they called me in for a physical, although I passed it and I am
quite proud of that.
I went back to Harnischfeger's and went to work there, of course,
expecting to be called at any moment, but the war ended of course in
that year, in August of that year, at least it did in Europe. I was
elected vice president — when I left Harnischfeger's I was president
of Union Local 1114.
Mr. Tavenner. Of the United Steelworkers of America?
Mr. GiACOMO. Yes; of the United Steelworkers of America.
Mr. Tavenner. And you became vice president on your second em-
ployment ?
Mr. GiACOMO. Yes; whenever I went back again, in June of that
year they were electing officers again and I suppose out of respect for
me and since I had been president of the union, they wanted me to
run as an officer of the union again and I did.
Mr. Ta\^nner. You have been employed in your present position
since 1945 ?
Mr. GiACOMO. August 1, 1945,
Mr. Tavenner. During the period that you have mentioned, from
1937 to the present date, did you become acquainted with a person by
the name of Paul Corbin ?
Mr. GiACOMO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you first become acquainted with him ?
]Mr. GiACOMO. To the best of my knowledge, it was in 1946. To the
best of my knowledge, it was early in 1946. It may have been May
or June, somewhere in along there.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know how he was employed at the time
that you became acquainted with him ?
Mr. GiACOMO. I do not recall that I knew that he was employed.
I thought he just came into Milwaukee whenever I met him.
Mr. ScHERER. From where?
Mr. GiACOMO. I do not know from where. This happened some 14
or 15 years ago and maybe the years have sort of clouded my recollec-
tion a little bit. I do remember, though, that he was wearing his GI
clothes when I met him. I cannot recall who introduced me to him,
however. I do remember that I met him out on the street at the en-
trance to where the United Steelworkers had its building, 108 Wells
Street.
Mr. Tavenner. Our investigation shows that Mr. Corbin was em-
ployed as a business manager of the CIO News from February 8, 1946,
to June 28, 1946, and that on this latter date he became employed on
1238 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
the staff of the United Public Workers of America, district staff, as a
field representative.
Can you recall at this time whether your acquaintanceship with
him was prior to June 28, 1946, or whether you first learned to know
him after that date ?
Mr. GiACOMo. To the best of my knowledge, I did not know Paul
before 1946. As I say, the exact moment I cannot recall, because when
you are just introduced to someone you have never seen before, and
he meant nothing to you before, the occasion was not a great occasion,
so it is hard to pin down a specific moment or date, and he was just one
of many, of course, that I was introduced to in the course of my life-
time. I did not pin it down as a "red letter" day as having met Paul
Corbin as if I had met the President of the United States or some
dignitary, so I cannot recall what month or day. It could have been
very early in 1946, but I just cannot for the life of me recall that it was
prior to Jmie 1946.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have an occasion to discuss with Paul Cor-
bin any matters related to the Communist Party ?
Mr. GiACOMO. No; Paul had never discussed it with me. May I
just take it from there ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. GiACOMO. Paul had never discussed this thing of communism
with me as a general discussion, but he did one day entering into the
building at 108 West Wells Street, where the United Steelworkers had
their district headquarters, asked me— put it to me substantially this
way, and I don't recall his exact words — ^"Are you — when are you
going to join the party ?" Of course, I just shoved it off and told him
I had not thought about it at all.
On another occasion, Paul asked me, "Why don't you join the Com-
munist Party ?" I put it off again. Just when this was I don't know,
but it had to be from the period in 1946 or 1947, sometime in there,
because, as I say, the cleanup in the labor movement in the State of
Wisconsin came in the fall, I think, of 1947, when they had a conven-
tion in Wisconsin where they threw out all of the so-called Communists
and the other fellows took over. On one or two occasions he asked me
if I wanted to make a contribution to the party.
Mr. Scherer. Was there any question when he asked you on these
one or two occasions whether you wanted to make a contribution to
the party, that he was referring to the Communist Party ?
Mr. GiACOMO. No; at least there was no question in my mind as to
what he was referring to.
Mr. Scherer. There was just this one occasion in 1946 wlion he
used the words "Communist Party" ?
Mr. GiACOMO. I don't recall wlietlier he said "Communist Party" or
not. Of course, wlienever you mentioned even "party" in those days,
the inference was tlie Communist Party. At least, tliat was the im-
pression that I got. Now I certainly could not sit here today nnd say
that he said "Communist Party." T tliink it would be inifair to you,
to myself, and to ]VTr. Corbin if I said tliat.
Mr. SciiERKK. But there is no doubt in your mind that b.e referred
to the Communist Party?
Mr. GiACOMO. In my own opinion, yes, sir, because of the condi-
tions that existed at that time.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1239
Mr. Tavenner. Had he shown any interest in the Communist
Party at that time by comments that lie made to you on various
subjects?
Mr. GiACOMO.. First of all, let me say this. Mr. Paul Corbin is a
mouthy sort of individual. He likes to be the center of attraction.
He is an egotist. He is domineering, he is forceful, he is a pathologi-
cal liar. He is just about everything that a fine, upstanding citizen
would not want to be. He does not know loyalty and he holds nothing
sacred. I do not think he would hold a friendship sacred.
On occasion, once or twice, he would come into the office and say,
"Giacomo, there is a sale at Gimbel's or at the Boston Department
Store and they are having a suit sale. They are getting rid of some
of their fall suits and they are having a sale. Let's go down and take
a look at them."
He pulled this on me once or twice until I caught on to him, and
then I never went to another sale with him. I was completely em-
barrassed and I think he did it to embarrass me or anyone else he
pulled this on. He pi'oceeded to embarrass everybody else by begin-
ning a dissertation on the benevolence of Joe Stalin and the Com-
munist movement, and so forth, so that everybody could hear it — •
it seemed to me to deliberately draw attention to him, not because he
was dedicated to that ideology or the principles involved in the demo-
cratic movement, but to deliberately draw attention to himself.
On another occasion he asked me to drive him to Janesville. He
wanted to see his wife. She worked for some Government service
there. I don't know whether it was the OPA or what it was. It
would be easy for you gentlemen to check this. I think it was the
OPA.
Mr. ScHERER. He wanted to see his wife ?
Mr. Giacomo. Yes. He had no automobile and to the best of my
recollection, at that time, Mr. W. T. Anderson, an associate of mine
and who had been with the United Steelworkers for a good many
years, and I were the only ones who had an automobile. He or I
would drive the district director, Meyer Adelman, we Avould drive
him around the district and anyone else. Anyway she [Mrs. Corbin]
told him [Paul Corbin] to go over to the butcher shop. To the best of
my knowledge, this butcher shop was not too far from the office, and
to the best of my knowledge, I don't think he was just working there
but he had something to do with the store by a boy who had just been
discharged and who had sei-ved in the Armed Forces. Of course, Paul
began one of his orations about the prices of the meat and people were
damn fools for buying meat at this price, and, by God, if Joe Stalin
had anything to say about it, by God, blah, blali, blah, blah, things
would be different.
Evidently this fellow who ran this store knew Paul quite well, or he
knew Paul's wife and through her knew Paul. He told Paul to cut
it out, to come outside he w^anted to talk to him. This was the last
time that I was embarrassed by this guy. I never went anywhere
else with him again. This gentleman who ran this meat market
proceeded to tell him off. He said, "Go somewhere else with this
gush." He said to stay out of his store and never come back there
again.
1240 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. ScHERER. What "was the store owner complaining about in
particular?
Mr. GiACOMO. That he was mouthing off in his store about his meat,
atid people were damn fools for buying meat in his store, and so
forth and so on, and here again he [Paul Corbin] deliberately called
attention to Mr. Paul Corbin.
Mr. SciiERER. Did the owner object to his talking about Joe Stalin?
Mr. GiACOMO. Not only that, but he objected to these other things
also, coming into his store and mouthing off' and all, in front of his
customers. It was natural for him not to want anyone around who
was going to begin this. It was not his fault, because the OPA had
charge of the meat prices.
I am just giving you some general background — whenever I say
Paul Corbin is mouthy and he is domineering and forceful. On other
occasions, if Paul would notice at a convention or at a meeting of
some kind, a union meeting, or anywhere where there was a get-
together or maybe a Democratic meeting, he would see a group of
people, and in the background he would sort of scan the group and
then just sort of walk around until he would spot me or somebody
else he knew and talk to me for a moment, and then say, "I am going
to meet Senator Joe McCarthy in 5 minutes," and off he would go,
and I knew he wasn't going to meet Senator Joe McCarthy, but he
wanted to leave that impression with the group there that he was
a big guy. Or if it was a group of union people, he would pick
on what is termed one of the most antilabor employers in the city of
Milwaukee, and that is Walter Harnischfeger, and he would just
blurt out, "I have to go meet Walter Harnischfeger," and then duck.
I say this, gentlemen, because I got to know Paul Corbin and the
way he worked and I was under the impression then, and I still am
under the impression today, that if it is revealed that Paul Corbin did,
in fact, belong to the Communist Party, that Paul Corbin did not be-
long because he was dedicated to that ideology or principle but he
joined the party in order to, shall we use the common term, "finger"
some of the people in the labor movement and to pass on this infor-
mation to someone or somebody — I don't know who. That is the im-
pression I have of Paul Corbin.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he at any time indicate to you or say to you
that he had been to a Communist Party meeting?
Mr. GiACOMO. Yes; the same as, I say, he would blurt out before
this group of people, "I am going to see Walter Harnischfeger" or, "I
have a meeting with Senator Joe McCarthy."
Mr. Tavenner. Tell us the circumstances under which he mentioned
this to you.
Mr. GiAcoMO. On two occasions. Wliy he would say it to me — and
he probably said this to other people, although I don't know whether
he would or not — why he would say it to me ; they didn't, the Hirsches
didn't, the Fred Blairs didn't, the Eisenschers — who were known
Communists — didn't say to me ever that they were having a meeting
or anything like that; but Paul Corbin would say, "I got to rush. I
am going to a high-level meeting of the Communist Party." Then
off he would go.
Mr. ScHERER. You said he said that to you on two different occa-
sions ?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1241
Mr. GiACOMO. Once he was going to one and once he was coming
back from one.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere would these conversations take place ?
Mr. GiAcoMO. I would not say always on the street, but coming or
going, in passing.
Mr. Tavenner. What would be the occasion of his making such a
statement to you? He would not just meet you and say, "Well, I
have just come back from a Communist meeting."
Mr. GiACOMO. Absolutely. That is the first thing he would blurt
out when he would meet me. He would blurt out, "Giacomo, I have
just come from a high-level meeting of the Communist Party."
Mr. Tavenner. Was that before he said to you on another occasion,
"Why don't you join the Communist Party ?"
Mr. Giacomo. No ; this was after these occasions.
Mr. ScHERER. As I remember your testimony, he approached you
on three different occasions about joining the party ?
Mr. Giacomo. On two different occasions.
Mr. ScHERER. You, of course, never joined the party ?
Mr. Giacomo. I would like to state for the record here that I was
never a member of the Communist Party, I am not one now, and if the
good Lord continues to bless me with an iota of sanity, I shall never
be a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. SciiERER. I wanted to give you an opportunity to get that on
the record.
Mr. Doyle. You say it was on the street the fii^st time that he said
he was going to a high-level meeting with the Communist Party. Do
you remember about wliat year that was ?
Mr. Giacomo. I would say that this was in 1947.
Mr. DoYiiE. You and he were all alone, a chance meeting on the
street ?
Mr. Glvcomo. Yes. Paul never talked to me in the presence of other
people.
Mr. DoYEE. About how long after the first time did he say tliat he
had just come from a high-level meeting of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Giacomo. I wish that I could tell you that but, Mr. Chairman,
I really don't know.
Mr. Doyle. 'Wliere was it in Wisconsin ?
Mr. Giacomo. All of this happened in Milwaukee.
Mr. Doyle. Near your office or approximately close to it?
Mr. Giacomo. Never in our office. He never discussed any of these
problems with me in our office.
Mr. Doyle. Daytime or nighttime ?
Mr. Giacomo. It was in the daytime. Paul is always a man who is
in a huiTy. I don't know if any of you gentlemen here ever saw Paul
Corbin, but he is always a man in a hurry. He never stops. He will
start talking to you about right here and, as he is pacing, he is way
over there before he gets finished.
Mr. Doyle. Do you remember what, if any, reply you made to him
when he said he was going to a high-level meeting of the Communist
Party?
]\Ir. Giacomo. I did not have an occasion to reply. He was going.
Mr. Doyle. The second time when he said lie had just been to a
high-level meeting of the Communist Party ?
1242 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBEST
Mr. GiAcoMO. I would have had to stop him and say, "Come back
here."
Mr. Doyle. He was alone and you were alone with him ?
Mr, GiAcoMO. Yes.
Mr. ScHERER. You have referred to him as "Paul" all through your
testimony. You evidently got to know him fairly well ?
Mr. GiAcoMO. I have known Paul Corbin now, better than I have
ever known him before, while he has been in the movement of the
Democratic Party in the State of Wisconsin as a fund-raiser and as
a fellow who helps promote the Jefferson-Jackson Day Dinners, and
so forth. I have come in contact with Paul Corbin in this capacity
in the State of Wisconsin on several, several occasions. I have been
to Democratic functions with him. I have discussed the Democratic
Party with him, and so on and so forth. Since he has been active in
the Democratic Party, I have known him well enough to call him
"Paul" and he calls me "John." I make no bones about this.
Mr. ScHERER. You have known him from 1946 until today ?
Mr. GiACOMO. Yes; although I lost track of Paul after 1948 for a
little while and I would only see him on occasion. He became com-
mandant of the State Marine Corps League in the State of Wisconsin.
I was told that he had the opportunity of becoming the national — I
don't know if they refer to this as commander or commandant of the
Marine Corps League. He turned that down because it would inter-
fere with his promotional business, which is advertising and promo-
tion of various functions and so on, in the State.
Mr. ScHERER. Do you know whether Corbin is a naturalized Ameri-
can ? Did you ever know that ? Was he born in the United States ?
Mr. Gl\'como. Yes. I did learn that. I learned through Emil
Costello that he was born in Winnipeg, Canada.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you ever know him by any name other than
Corbin?
Mr. GiACOMO. Yes ; I learned that through Mr. Costello. I thought
at that time it was Korbinsky, but I see in the papers it is Kobrinsky.
Mr. ScHERER. Wlien did you learn that ?
Mr. Gl\como. It had to be in 1947.
The nationality, if I recall correctly as it was told to me, he was a
Russian. I understand that he comes from a reputable, highly re-
spected, highly regarded family in Canada.
Mr. ScHERER. How old a man is he now ?
Mr. Gl\como. Paul seems to carry his age pretty well. I am 53 and
I do not think he is as old as I am.
Mr. SciiERER. When is the last time you talked with him, approxi-
mately ?
Mr. Glacomo. I am trying to pin it down as closely as I can. I
think it was right after the primary elections, the Presidential elec-
tions, right after he came back from West Virginia ?
Mr. JoiiANSEN. 1960?
Mr. GiACOMO. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. You spoke of the two occasions, first when he said
to you, "Why don't you join the Communist Party?" and then on an-
other occasion, "Wlien are you going to join the party?" I want you
to tell us where those conversations took place and any other cir-
cumstances regarding the conversations that might be of some help
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1243
to the committee to understand the situation. Let's take the first
instance.
Mr. GiAcoMO. The first instance was — I don't know whether I was
going in or he was coming out. I was just going to take the elevator
or he was going to take it.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that the building where you had your office?
Mr. GiACOMO. Yes; 108 West Wells, We then moved out of the
building.
Mr. Tavenner. What preceded that statement? There must have
been some discussion going on between you.
Mr. GiAcoMO. No; there just wasn't any. He just asked me, "Why
don't you join the Communist Party?" I am saying "Communist"
again. He said, "Why don't you join the party?" But he never took
me aside and attempted to rationalize why I should join the Commu-
nist Party. He would just merely ask the question and continue
right on,
Mr. Sciierer. Was that the time in Milwaukee when there was a re-
cruitment drive on by the Communist Party ?
jNIr. GiACOMO. In 1946 and 1947, it was bad business to begin recruit-
ing, with the furor and the l3oys attempting to arrest the activities of
the CIO in that State during those days. It has always been a ques-
tion to me and bothered me as to why Paul Corbin should happen
upon the scene when all of this was beginning to happen in Milwaukee
and in the Stat« of Wisconsin. He made it so obvious to everyone by
little statements that he made, by the organizations that he repre-
sented in the Public Workers ; and, still, when the story came out ex-
posing the story and the people quite active in the movement, Paul
Corbin was not mentioned at all.
To me, having known Paul since then and having seen the way he
works, it would lead me to believe, as I say, if it is established that he
was indeed and in fact a member of the Communist Party, I hardly
believe that he was so because he was dedicated to that ideology or the
principles of that party.
Mr. ScHERER. But you indicate that, from all of these conversations
that you had with him and the statements he made concerning the
party or the Communist Party, there was no doubt in your mind that
he was a member of the party.
Mr. GiACOMO. At first I thought he was, but then I began to revise
my thinking on this and since then I have held to that revision of my
thinking. It seems to me that it just does not jibe. It would not sur-
prise me if Paul didn't give the writer of the John Sentinel articles
some information or help him in the formulation of the story.
Mr. ScHERER. What story are you talking about?
Mr. GiAcoMO. The John Sentinel articles.
Mr. Tavenner. It was a series of exposes of Communist infiltra-
tion of the labor movement in Wisconsin published in the M'dwauhee
Senthiel during the Allis-Chalmers strike in 1946.
How long after that conversation was it that the second one oc-
curred in which he asked you when you were going to join the party ?
Mr. GLiC03io. The first was "why don't you join" and the second one
was "when." I just would not know. I wish I could tell you exactly
how long.
87845—62 2
1244 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBEST
Mr. Tavenner. Where did that conversation take place?
Mr. GiACOMO. I don't know. I cannot remember it as having been
in confinement, in a room or anything. It was out in the open some
place. Like I say, Paul was on the go.
Mr. Tavenner. Paul Corbin disappeared from the scene there in
Milwaukee some time around 1947 or 1948, did he not?
Mr. GiACOMO. It was around in 1948, and whenever I heard of Paul
again he was living in Janesville. To the best of my knowledge, that
has been his home since then.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you discover at a later period that he had been
in California?
Mr. GiACOMO. He told me that he had been.
Mr. Tavenner. He told you that ?
Mr. GiAGOMO. Yes. He told me lie had been to California on a
vacation, he and his wife.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Did you have an occasion to discuss Corbin with
anyone in California yourself ?
Mr. Gl\como. Yes.
Mr. Ta\tenner. ^\liat was that ?
Mr. GiACOMo. I don't know just when. It was after he came back
in 1948.
Mr. Tavenner. When were you in California ?
Mr. GiACOMO. In November of 1948, right after the Presidential
election.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you learn that Corbin was living in California
for a period of time ?
Mr. GiACOMO. Xo ; I never knew him to be living in California ; no.
It ma}' be that in the intervals — I did not see Paul Corbin every day
or every week or every month after 1948. There might have been
a year or a year and a half separating.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he move back to Milwaukee at a later date?
Mr. GiACOMO. He never did. I am saying he never did. I don't
know whether he did nor not. I don't know that he did. I was
always under the impression that he maintained his residence in
Janesville from 1947 or 1948.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your next personal relationship with
Paul Corbin after he returned to Janesville?
Mr. GiACOMO. I don't know whether it was in 1947 or the 1949
session of the legislature — I wish I could remember this vividly but
I can't — 1947 or 1949 legislature in the State of Wisconsin. I was
engaging in just some general discussions with Paul Corbin. He, as
usual, looked aromid to see that no one could liear and he said,
"Giacomo, the FBI was over to my house." I said, "Why were they
over to your house?" Paul said, "They want some information con-
cerning you," meaiiing me. I said, "A^Hiat have I done now ?" "Well,"
he said, "the FBI has a jigsaw puzzle and all of the pieces fit. They
have all the pieces fitting finnly in place with the exception of one.
Now this jigsaw puzzle is not going to mean a thing to them until
they get this one piece in its place. They think that one piece is you.
So they are asking me what I know about you."
I said, "Yes, Paul, what did you tell them about me? What did
you know about me?"
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1245
He said, *'I told them to lay off you. You are a good guy, a clean
guy, and I defended you."
Mr. ScHERER. What did he say the FBI accused you of ?
Mr. GiACOMO. That if this piece fit, meaning me or whoever that
piece fitted, but they thought it would be me, then this whole thing
would expose the great Communist conspiracy in the Middle West.
Mr. ScHERER. It dealt with the subject of Communist cells, this
jigsaw we are talking about?
Mr. GiAcoMO. Yes. I become now the mystery man.
Inwardly I thought, "Paul, you just go right ahead and talk."
Mr. ScHERER. However, this w^as after he had talked to you about
joining the Communist Party?
Mr. GiACOMO. That is right.
Mr. ScHERER. And after he said to you on two different occasions
that he was going to a high-level meeting of the Communist Party
and after he said to you that he had just been to a high-level meeting
of the Communist Party?
Mr. GiACOMO. Yes. I met Paul Corbin here and there, so one day
he comes into the office.
Mr. ScHERER. Let me interrupt once more. Did the FBI ever come
to you and talk to you personally about this ?
Mr. GiACOMO. Yes, This could have been 2 years or so ago that
Paul Corbin came into my office and said, "I want to talk to you
privately." I said, "Close the door."
He said, "I understand you have been going around for quite some
time, and this has come to my attention over a period of some time,
that you have been telling people that I was getting information on
gnys, that I was an undercover man, and so forth, and that you
thought in those days that I was."
I said, "Paul, I not only thought in those day you were, but I still
think you are."
He said, "Wliat makes you think so?" And I related all of these
things I am telling you now, such as his contacting me, asking me
when I was going to join the party, and soliciting me for contribu-
tions, and never missing an opportunity to make it obvious by draw-
ing attention to him to leave the impression, at least, that he was a
member of the Communist Party, and then saying to him, recalling
his being a commandant of the Marine Corps League in the State,
and so on and so forth, and then coming out of this thing absolutely
unscathed. There were a lot of people who were just on the fringes
who were mentioned in the John Sentinel story that was a surprise to
me, but Paul Corbin was not even mentioned once.
He said, "No, no, no ; you are wrong. You are wrong about that."
I said, "You may tell me I am wrong, but I still believe it, Paul."
He tells me there that I am wrong and then he turns around again
so he has me on the hook, and he doesn't want me to ever forget that
possibly he was in some sort of spying capacity for somebody. So
he said, "The FBI was over to my house again on you."
I said, "Paul, the pieces do not fit."
He savs, "They want that piece to nt in there and they are after your
tail." / '
I said, "They have not made it fit yet, so they have not made it fit."
I asked him what they could add now, and he said he told them to
1246 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNESTG PAUL CORBIN
leave me alone and to go somewhere else and try to find out who that
piece is.
Mr. Tavenner. That happened about 2 years ago ?
Mr. GiACOMO. Two or 3 years ago.
Mr. Tavenner. In 1959'?
Mr. GiACOMO. Around about there to the best of my recollection.
Mr. TA^'ENNER. "VVliat time of the year ?
Mr. GiACOMO. I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. Did the FBI come to you at any time and have a
conversation with you through any representative?
Mr. GiACOMO. Yes,
Mr. Tavenner. When was that?
Mr. GiACOMO. Right after the inaugural when the present Admin-
istration took office and certain appointments were being considered
for the various jobs.
Mr. Tavenner. That would be in 1961 ?
Mr. GiACOMo. Yes; of this year.
Mr. Tavenner. What was their purpose in coming to you at that
time?
Mr. GiACOMO. I don't know whether they called these loyalty checks
or security checks or whatever they are. They are routine checks
that are made on people who are about to enter Government service.
Mr. Ta\'enner. It related to Paul Corbin ?
Mr. GiACOMO. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Not to you?
Mr. GiACOMO. No; at least he did not tell me it did.
Mr. Tavenner. As far as you know, the FBI was not engaged in
investigating you ?
Mr. GiACOMO. I don't know and I can't say they didn't, but I don't
know of any such investigation.
Mr. Tavenner. But you did think they came to you for information
relating to Paul Corbin?
Mr. GiACOMO. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. How much of this story that vou have told us did
you tell the FBI?
Mr. GiACOMO. I think I told them substantially the same thing as
I have told you, if my memory serves me correctly.
Mr. Tavenner. Did the FBI indicate that Paul Corbin had been
acting for them in any undercover capacity ?
Mr. GiACOMO. When I referred to that, the gentleman who was
interviewing me was quick to say "No" I was wrong, that this — that
he had never done any work for the Bureau.
I can recall that I said, "Well, of course if I were in your boots, I
would not admit to it either." And that was that.
Mr. Tavenner. Was there any reaction of surprise on the part of
the investigator when you made this statement that you thought he
[Corbin] was a member of the FBI or working for them ?
Mr. GiACOMO. He registered no discernible surprise.
Mr. Scherer. But he did say to you affirmatively, as I understand it,
that Corl)in was not an undercover operative at any time for the FBI ?
Mr. GiAcoMO. Yes. I might add, the question he asked me last was,
"Do vou think Paul Corbin is loval to the United States ?" And I told
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1247
him that I had no reason to believe that he was not — and I had no
reason to believe that he wasn't.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know of any other fact which would be of
assistance to the committee in ascertaining the nature of Paul Corbin's
activity in connection with the Communist Party, if he had any ?
Mr. GiACOMO. No ; I think I have pretty well covered it from what
I can remember of it just oft'hand.
Mr. Doyle. How could he be loyal to the United States and be a
member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. GiAcoMO. I just don't know that he was.
Mr. Doyle. He told you he was going to top Communist Party
meetings and so forth.
Mr. GiACOMO. I just cannot relieve myself of the impression that
Paul Corbin, being the type of person that he is, to draw you in in a
position, you understand, actually did not go to any top priority Com-
munist meetings.
Mr. Doyle. You felt he was either lying to you or exaggerating or
making a bluff ?
Mr. GiACOMO. I believe it was an exaggerated lie.
Mr. Doyle. Wliat organization did he work through ?
Mr. GiACOMO. The Public Workers. That is the only one that I
know that Paul was actually engaged with.
Mr. Doyle. You mentioned that he was in the Democratic Party.
In what capacity, if you loiow ?
Mr. Gl^como. Fund raiser, doing promotional work for them, work-
ing for certain candidates in campaigns.
Mr. Doyle. Where is he now ?
Mr. GiACOMO. Right today ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes.
Mr. GiACOMO. I don't know^ w^here he is physically.
Mr. Doyle. To the best of your belief, what is he doing now ?
Mr. GiACOMo. From the best of my belief from reading the papers,
he is special assistant to the — to John Bailey, the national commit-
teeman.
Mr. DoYT.E. Of the Democratic Party ?
Mr. Gl\como. Of the Democratic Party.
Mr. Doyle. How long has he been in that capacity, if you know ?
Mr. Giacomo. I don't know, a month or 2 months. It has just been
recent.
Mr. Doyle. Plave you ever discussed with anyone else the subject
of wliether or not he was a Communist ?
Mr. Giacomo. On several occasions.
Mr. Doyle. With wliom ?
Mr. Giacomo. To all of my best acquaintances, never that he was a
Communist. It was always my impression that he was engaged in
some spying activities, and I would always relate so to associates of
mine.
Mr. Doyle. What was their impression to you ?
What was their reply to you as to whether or not he was a Commu-
nist in their belief ?
Mr. Giacomo. No one ever indicated to me that they believed he
was, but they all believed he was capable of being a spy.
1248 TESTEVIONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Doyle. For whom ?
Mr. GiACOMO. Just for anybody.
Mr. ScHERER. Can you tell us the names of these people with whom
you discussed these things ?
Mr. GiAcoMO. I discussed it with so darn many people, sir. I dis-
cussed it witli Bill ]\IcCauley, the district attorney. I discussed it
with James Brennan, who is now the Federal attorney. I guess you
would call him. "\'Vliat do you call these
Mr. TA^T]srNER. U.S. attorney.
INIr. GiACOMO. I have discussed it with anv number of people who are
close associates of mine in the Democratic Party. I just cannot recall.
I have never made it any secret that these were my impressions of
Mr. Corbin whenever he became the subject of discussions.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you discuss it with any representatives of the Mil-
wavkee Journal?
Mr. GiACOMo. Mr. Kerstein or Kerstin discussed it with me.
Mr. ScHERER. On how many occasions was that ?
Mr. GiACOMO. Just one.
Mr. ScHERER. When was that ?
Mr. GiACOMO. Three weeks ago.
Mr. ScHERER. Since the story broke in the Mihuaukee Journal?
Mr. GiACOMO. Yes. I might add here — although this is a problem
when you talk to newspaper people and because of that I don't talk to
them too often — but I told him that my impression was that Paul
Corbin was not a Communist ; also that he was a spy. He neglected
to print that in the paper.
Mr. ScHERER. A spy for what ?
Mr. GiACOMO. I did not know who. It might have been some em-
ployer group in those days. I don't know. It might have been Jolin
Sentinel. [Pen name of the author of the Milwaukee, Sentinel
articles.]
Mr. ScHERER. He was working for a union at that time, was he not?
Mr. GiAcoMO. Part of the time. He was with the Public Workers
Union.
Mr. ScHERER. In what capacity ?
Mr. GiACOMO. The newspapers say "field manager," whatever that
is.
Mr. ScHERER. You say you have talked recently about Paul Corbin
with some of your associates in the Democratic Party ?
Mr. GiACOMO. Not only recently. I have been talking on every
occasion that Paul Corbin's name came up. Some of the stuff he
has pulled, like the overselling of tickets for Senator Kennedy's ban-
quet at that time, deliberately oversold, knowing full well that the hall
would only seat 500, and he deliberately oversold 500 persons and he
deliberately oversold 250 seats.
Mr. ScHERER. When did our investigator talk to you ?
Mr. GiACOMO. Last Wednesday or Thursday.
Mr. ScTTERER. Is that the first time Mr. Wetterman talked to you
about this ?
Mr. GiACOMO. Yes, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Since that time has anyone else attempted to talk
to you ?
Mr. GiACOMO. No, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. And you have not talked to anyone else ?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1249
Mr. GiACOMO. Yes ; I talked to Congressman Zablocki.
Mr. ScHERER. That is since Mr. Wetterman talked to you ?
Mr. GiAcoMO. Yes, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Would you mind telling us what your conversation
was with Congressman Zablocki ?
Mr. GiACOMO. I told him I was subpenaed to come before this
committee.
Mr. ScHERER. Wliat did Zablocki say ?
Mr. GiAcoMo. He did not seem surprised or did not seem excited
about it.
Mr. ScHERER. "Wliat was the occasion of your talking to Zablocki ?
Mr. GiAcoMO. Because I know Zablocki is very interested in the
Paul Corbin story.
Mr. ScHERER. Did Zablocki come to see you, or did you call him?
Mr. GiAcoMO. I called him.
Mr. ScHERER. After you talked to Mr. Wetterman ?
Mr. GiAcoMo. Yes, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. What did Zablocki say, in substance ?
Mr. GiAcoMO. As I say, he did not act excited about it. He just
as much as said he was not surprised about it.
Mr. ScHERER. Surprised about what ?
Mr. GiACOMO. That there was going to be some hearings on it.
Mr. ScHERER. TNHiat did he say about Corbin ?
Mr. Gl'iCOMO. I think I can say what Congressman Zablocki could
tell you, that he does not have very high regard for Paul Corbin.
(A short recess was taken.)
Mr. Doyle. Let the record show that the subcommittee has re-
convened with a majority of the subcommittee here, as well as Mr.
Schadeberg.
Mr. SoHERER. Before we had the recess, Mr. Witness, you stated
that Mr. Wetterman, from the staff of the Committee on Un-Amer-
ican Activities, had talked with you about 10 days ago?
Mr. GiACOMO. No ; it was about a week ago, roughly.
Mr. ScHERER. Then you contacted Congressman Zablocki ?
Mr. GiACOMO. Yes; he was home for the Labor Day vacation.
Mr. ScHERER. How long was that after you had talked to Mr. Wet-
terman, a day or so ?
Mr. GiACOMO. In 2 or 3 days ; yes, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you call Congressman Zablocki on the phone or
did you go to his office ?
Mr. GiACOMO. I called him on the phone, at his home in Milwaukee^
Mr. ScHERER. That is the only conversation you have had with him
since Mr. Wetterman talked with you ?
Mr. GiACOMO. No ; he came to my home.
Mr. ScHERER. He came to your home ?
Mr. GiACOMO. Yes.
Mr. ScHERER. After the telephone conversation ?
Mr. GiACOMO. Yes.
Mr. SoHERER. Did you have any other conversations ?
Mr. GiACOMO. I did not have any conversations with him on the
iphone. I just told him I wanted to talk something over with him
about a mutual friend of ours, and he understood who the mutual
friend was.
1250 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. ScHERER. And then he came to your home?
Mr. GiACOMO. Yes. I was sorry to have disturbed him because he
was celebrating his little son's birthday and he was having a party
for him. It was either a Saturday or a Sunday.
Mr. ScHERER. Have you had any conversation with him since that
time ?
Mr. GiAcx)MO. No. You see, I was told, Mr. Congressman, by Mr.
Wetterman, that I was not to divulge anything about this hearing to
any newspaper man or any member of a newspaper, and I did not.
As a matter of fact, I did not, and the only other person who knows
I am here for this purpose — the girl in the office may know I am in
Washington, but she does not Iniow why I am here, because she made
the plane reservations for me. Mr. Wetterman was there the day I
asked the girl to make the reservations. He was also there whenever
I canceled out some meetings I had with a company in Madison.
Mr. ScHERER. When Congressman Zablocki arrived at your home,
tell us just in substance what you said to him.
Mr. GiAcoMO. I said, "Congressman, I want you to know, and I
think you ought to know, that I have been subpenaed by the House
Committee on Un-American Activities." I thought he would find
out sooner or later that I had been subpenaed and appeared before this
committee and, being my Congressman, I thought he should know
about it from me rather than anyone else.
Mr. ScHERER. We certainly would not take exception to that.
Mr. GiACOMO. I have a great admiration for Clem Zablocki and
I hope he has for me.
INIr. ScHERER. We all do.
Mr. GiACOMO. So he asked, me if I was concerned about anything
and I said, "Yes."
Mr. Doyle. Off the record.
( A short discussion was held off the record.)
Mr. Doyle. I recessed the committee for a moment to have an in-
formal discussion with reference to this question. I would like to
have the record show what Mr. Tavemier feels, as long as we have
gone as far as we have on the record, that the question ought to be
answered, which Mr. Scherer asked about the conversation between
the witness and Congi^essman Zablocki.
I just informed Congressman Scherer that I felt that that ques-
tion was not germane or pertinent and not a proper question.
Mr. Tavenner. It was my suggestion to the chairman that, inas-
much as the record shows what it does, it ought to be clarified by a
complete and full answer to the question and such further questions
as Mr. Scherer desires to ask him regarding Mr. Zablocki. Then, if
there is any need, Mr. Zablocki can be called for any explanation that
he desires to make.
Mr. Doyle. I might further state that it has been my impression
or feeling, as a member of the committee, that conversations in which
a Congressman is referred to — that confidential conversations between
a constituent and a Congressman are, more or less, in tlie categoiy of a
confidential communication. (3n that basis, partially, I felt that it
was an improper question, but let's proceed.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1251
Mr. ScHERER. Will you proceed to tell us what you told Congress-
man Zablocki ?
Mr. GiACOMO. He asked me what I was concerned about. I told him
I was not concerned about myself. I am just concerned about being
engaged in some testimony before a connnittee which may or may
not indict, I don't know, a human being in the eyes of the people of
the United States. I am concerned about his having been engaged
in Government work and whether this would have any effect on the
good name and integrity of the President of the United States.
He told me the only thing he would advise me to do is appear before
this subcommittee and to give the facts as I knew them, that you were
all fine, upstanding gentlemen. I said, "Be that as it may, I do not
know them personally." I said, "It would be nice if I could see your
friendly face in the committee room." He told me he did not know
whether he would be allowed to visit these hearings. He said he was
not sure about this and, if not, "Just be relaxed and appear before
the committee and answer their questions as best you know how and
you have nothing to worry about."
Mr. ScHERER. What was said about Corbin ?
Mr. GiACOMO. I think Clem already knew, having gotten the in-
formation from Mr. Kerstein of the Mihoaul'ee Jourmal^ that I had
given them some information and I was interviewed by Mr. Kerstein
of the Milwaukee Journal^ and to the best of my knowledge I repeated
to him the convei-sation that took place, and I told him substantially
what I knew about Paul Corbin.
Mr. ScHERER. What you have told us here today ?
Mr. GiACOMO. Yes. We talked about it, and I repeated to him that
Paul wasn't. He said, "Whether he was or was not, his background,
even if he was not a Communist, he has no position being in the posi-
tion he holds," and that was the sum and substance of the conversa-
tion. It may not be right in detail what we talked about, but gen-
erally, that is just about how the conversation went. I could not give
you exactly verbatim what was said.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you say anything, or was anything said, in that
conversation about Corbin having been employed by former Congress-
man Gerald T. Flynn?
Mr, GiACOMO. I did not recall that the question of Flynn came up
at all. I don't recall that it did.
Mr. ScHERER. Do you know former Congressman Gerald T. Flynn?
Mr. GiAcoMO. Yes; I knew him for a good many years. I knew
him when he was a State senator.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you have anj'^ conversations with Congressman
Flynn at any time about Corbin?
Mr. GiACOMO. Yes.
JNIr. ScHERER. Wlien was that conversation ?
Mr. GiAcoMO. About Corbin ?
Mr. ScHERER. Yes.
Mr. GiAcoiNio. '\^nienever he named him as a member of his staff.
Mr. ScHERER. Would you tell us about that conversation?
Mr. Glacomo, I do not recall what the conversation was.
!Mr. ScHERER. What was the subject of the conversation ?
Mr. GiAcoMO. The subject of the conversation was that Paul Corbin
being the type of man he was— Corbin is not a personable guy and
1252 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBEST
he has a knack for antagonizing people — and I just figured, and I
was concerned, Gerry Flynn being a good friend of mine as he was,
tliat Paul Corbin would tend to embarrass him in his office.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you discuss with Gerald Flynn, Corbin's possible
Communist connections ?
Mr. GiAcoMo, No ; I don't know.
Mr. ScHERER. You don't remember ?
Mr. GiACOMO. I don't remember whether I did or did not.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you have any conversations with Flynn after
Flynn dismissed Corbin as his administrative assistant ?
Mr. GiAcoMO. I don't recall. I could have, but I do not recall, Mr.
Congressman.
Mr. SciiERER. You do know why, do you not, Corbin was dismissed
by Flynn?
Mr. GiAcoMO. I did not know it — the reason — until I read it in the
paper. I thought it was Corbin's messing up this Janesville dinner,
and so forth.
Mr, ScHERER. You have not talked to Flynn since then ?
Mr. GiAcoMO. No. As a matter of fact, I have not seen Gerry Flynn
since he was defeated for Congress in the first district.
Mr. ScHERER. Since the article appeared in the Milwaukee Journal
a few weeks ago, have you discussed the Corbin matter with anyone?
Has anyone attempted to talk to you about it, other than Mr. Wetter-
man and other than Congressman Zablocki ?
Mr. GiAcoMO. No.
Mr. ScHERER. No one has gotten in touch with you about the Corbin
matter, and you have not gotten in touch with anyone else or dis-
cussed the Corbin matter with them ?
Mr. GiACOMO. I was told not to.
Mr. ScHERER. I understand that, but since the article was printed
in the Milwaukee Journal and before Mr. Wetterman talked to you,
had you talked to anyone or had anyone attempted to talk to you ?
Mr. GiAcoMO. Weil, the people in my office knew that Mr. Kerstein
had talked to me.
Mr. ScHERER. Well, other than Mr. Kerstein. Mr. Kerstein talked
to you before the Milwaukee Journal article was published ?
Mr. GiAcoMO. That is right.
Mr. ScHERER. I am just asking whether anyone other than Wetter-
man or Congressman Zablocki talked to you since the publication
of the Milwaukee Journal article. Is your answer "No" ?
Mr. GiAcoMO. The answer is "No."
Mr. ScHERER. You testified, I believe, that Corbin on two occasions
back in the forties told you that the FBI had come to him and in-
quired about you. Did the FBI ever come to you or talk to you about
any complaint they might have about you ?
Mr. GiACOMO. if they did, it was not under the name of the FBI.
Mr, ScHERER. As far as you know, the FBI never raised this issue
about you which, Corbin said, on two different occasions the FBI
raised with him ?
Mr. GiAcoMo. No ; never.
Mr. SciTERER. Then, when the FBI came to you early this year
when they were investigating Corbin, I understand you told the FBI
substantially wliat you told tliis committee here today.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1253
Mr. GiACOMO. About the jigsaw ?
Mr. ScHERER. Yes.
Mr. GiAcoMo. Yes, I did.
Mr. ScHERER. Not only about the jigsaw, but whatever else you
knew about Corbin.
At that time, did you tell the FBI that Corbin had come to you
back in the forties and told you that the FBI had inquired of him
about your alleged Communist activities ?
Mr. GiACOsro. This was in the fifties that Corbin told me this.
Yes ; I did tell them, of course.
Mr. ScHERER. AVliat did the FBI say to that ? That you had never
been under investigation ?
Mr. GiACOMO. No ; he never said that I had been under investiga-
tion. I don't know that he made any reply to that at all. I don't re-
call that he did. He merely accepted it as testimony or information
that I was giving him.
Mr. ScHERER. He did say to you, however, as I recall your testi-
mony, that Corbin was not in any undercover capacity or employed
in any way by the FBI ?
Mr. GiACOMo. Yes, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. That he told you ?
Mr. GiACOMO- Yes, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. He told you that when you said that you had some
suspicions that he might be an undercover agent for the FBI ?
Mr. GiAcoMO. I might add, I said to him, "I could not blame him
at all for denying his associations, businesswise or organizationwise,
with Paul Corbin."
Mr. ScHERER. If he was an informant for the FBI, it would be
rather unusual for the FBI, at that late date, to come to you to inquire
about Corbin, would it not ?
Mr. GiACOMO. Yes. I suppose I had not thought of it in that way,
but I understand it is routine and normal and necessary to make a
check on everyone before they are admitted to any Government serv-
ice. This is the impression I have always gotten.
Mr. Doyle. Are we trying to interpret here what the FBI thinks
and how it operates ?
Mr. ScHERER. I am trying to get all the light I can. I may not
get all of that.
Mr. Doyle. What good is his opinion as to how it operates ?
Mr. ScHERER. That was just a comment. I just made an observa-
tion.
You indicated by your testimony that you are still under the im-
pression that he was an agent or a spy for somebody. Do you have
any basis for that ?
Mr. GL'iCOMO. No ; except this is the way he impresses me.
Mr. ScHERER. Only through impressions ?
Mr. GiACOMO. Yes; it is my own personal opinion. I just have
this feeling, Mr. Congressman, and I just cannot relieve myself — to
me, Paul Corbin could very well be working for the National Demo-
cratic Committee and my impression is, my opinion is, that he could
very well be giving whatever information he might have to the Re-
publican Committee. That is just the opinion I got of this fellow.
1254 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
This is just a fantastic application that I put as far as my impres-
sions of Paul Corbin.
Mr. ScHERER. Do you have a position with the Democratic Party
in Wisconsin?
Mr. GiACOMO. No ; I am just a member of the party,
Mr. ScHERER. Were you a delegate?
Mr. GiACOMO. I was a delegate in 1956 and a delegate in 1952.
Mr. DoYLE. It seems to me this is going too far afield.
Mr. GiACOMO. For your information, when the Communists were
out supporting Senator McCarthy, I was out supporting Howard
McMurray — the democratic process — and that is of public record be-
cause I went along and made speeches.
Mr. JoHANsEN. I am sure nothing of opprobrium can be attached
to the witness being a delegate to the Democratic National Conven-
tion.
Mr. ScHERER. The witness just raised the issue about Corbin. I am
anxious to find out all I can about it.
Mr. DoYLE. We are all proud to be delegates to our respective
party's national convention, but it is not germane here.
Mr. GiAcoMO. Are you trying to find out about me?
Mr. ScHETRER. Not at all.
Mr. GiACOMO. I would be glad to tell you what I think of myself.
Mr. ScHERER. This gentleman said if this man had any connections
with the Democratic Party that he is of such a character that he
would sell out the Democratic Party, and I wanted to know what
basis he had for saying that.
Mr. Doyle. I think the statement was that he might sell out to be
the agent of the Republican Party.
(A brief discussion was held off the record.)
Mr. Scherer. Did you know Philleo Nash ?
Mr. GiACOMO. Yes; I supported him when he ran for chairman of
the Democratic Party.
Mr. Scherer. Corbin and Nash were well acquainted, were they
not?
Mr. GiACOMO. They were acquainted, but I do not say they were
good friends.
Mr. Scherer. When was this? What period of time is involved?
Mr. GiAcoMo. The period of time that I knew was when Philleo
Nash was the head of the Democratic Party in the State of Wisconsin.
Mr. Scherer. I do not want anyone to infer by this question that
I am about to ask that I feel that Philleo Nash was a Communist,
but I do want to know whether or not you know anything about Nash's
connections with Communists?
Mr. Doyle. Off the record.
(A brief discussion was held off the record.)
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Tavenner, would you put tlie question ?
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have any knowledge of Communist Party
activities or affiliations by Mr. Nash ?
Mr. GiACOMO. No ; except what I read in testimony before. — a poster
came out of the McCarthy hearings and subsequently during Philleo
Nash's campaign, the campaign that was started against him by some
persons there in Wisconsin using tlie Senator McCarthy hearings'
testimony as the reason why he should not be elected Lieutenant
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1255
Governor. I know of no connections as far as Philleo Nash is con-
cerned with the Communist Party. I have always regarded Philleo
Nash as a good, average American.
Mr. Sgiierer. You have no knowledge of the time that he signed
petitions for release of convicted Communists? You do not know
about that ?
Mr. GiACOMO. No.
jNIr. ScHERER. Or his testifying on their behalf ?
Mr. GiACOMO. No.
Mr. SciiERER. I have no further questions.
Mr. DoTLE. Mr. Schadeberg?
Mr, Schadeberg. I have no questions.
Mr. Doyle. ]\Ir. Johansen ?
JNIr. Johansen. I have no questions.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Bruce?
Mr. Bruce. In listening to your testimony, as I recall the testimony,
you have testified tliat Mr. Corbin did ask you if you would join the
Communist Party on one occasion, and then on another occasion,
in effect, he urged you to join the Communist Party. Am I correct in
that?
Mr. GiACOMO. Yes, if you can call that urging.
Mr. Bruce. Why didn't you join the Communist Party ?
Mr. GiACOMO. On one occasion it was "Why don't you?" and on
the other it was ''When are you going to join the Communist Party?"
Mr. Bruce. You have testified that you have had the feeling all along
that Corbin was an undercover agent of some sort ?
Mr. GiACOMO. Rather than undercover agent, a spy.
Mr. Bruce. A sp}' of some sort then ?
Mr. GiAcoMO. Yes.
Mr. Bruce. When the FBI men came to you, I take it around Jan-
uary, and asked you about Mr. Corbin, you have testified that you at
that time said that you suspected that he was an FBI undercover
informant. The FBI agent replied that he was not and never had
been, to which you replied, "Well, I would exj^ect you to say that"
Mr. GiACOMO. Disavow, of course.
Mr. Bruce. This would indicate that you still held to the feeling
of a strong possibility that he was an FBI undercover informant?
Mr. GiACOMO. How could I, after he said "No," although it was
natural for him to disavow^ it, but I have to take his word for it that he
[Corbin] wasn't.
Mr. Bruce. You did say that, which would indicate that you were
not convinced.
Mr. GiACOMO. I said, if he was not with the FBI, then he was a labor
spy, or somebody was getting this infonnation that he was gleaning
from the labor movement at this time.
Mr. Bruce. May I ask the stenographer to read back to us the
description of the witness concerning Mr. Corbin at the early part of
his testimony, his evaluation of the nature of Mr. Corbin ?
The following testimony was read by the reporter :
Mr. GiACOMO. First of all, let me say this. Mr. Paul Corbin is a mouthy sort
of individual. He likes to be the center of attraction. He is an egotist. He is
domineering, he is forceful, he is a pathological liar. He is just about everything
that a fine, upstanding citizen would not want to be. He does not know loyalty
and he holds nothing sacred. I do not think he would hold a friendship sacred.
1256 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNENG PAUL CORBIN
Mr. GiACOMO. My reference to loyalty was with respect to personal
friendships.
Mr. Bruce. Taken in connection with this impression, here is a
man whom you quickly analyzed as mouthy, a man who wanted to
be the center of attraction, egotist, domineering, forceful, pathological
liar.
With that kind of an impression, how could it be that you would
conclude that this man would be an FBI undercover informant? Is
this the kind of man that you believe the FBI would use as an under-
cover informant?
Mr. GiAcoMO. How do I know that this is not a deliberate act to
attract attention to him so that would be the least you would suspect
of the guy, not only as an FBI agent, but any other guy who is gleaning
information for someone? To me a normal, natural, average person
just does not do these things. It is just impossible.
Let me say it would be impossible for me to be that way. This
impression is so imbedded of Paul Corbin, that I just camiot relieve
myself of it. I just can't do it.
I might say here that I would be the most surprised and would be
most stunned and most shocked if it were actually revealed that Paul
Corbin was ever a Communist.
Mr. Bruce. Why ?
Mr. GiACOMO. Because I just can't believe that he was dedicated
to that ideology. I think he was in there, like I say, to make an
exposition.
Mr. Bruce. In where?
Mr. GiACOMO. Pretending, at least, by saying he was going to a
Communist high-level meeting. Why would he want to advertise a
thing like that? If I were going to any kind of a meeting, if it was
a high-level meeting, even of the Democratic Party, and it was sup-
posed to be hush-hush, I would never tell anybody I was going to a
high-level meeting of the Democratic Party.
Mr. Bruce. Do you consider that out of character for an FBI
undercover informant also?
Mr. GiACOMO. Like I say, it might have been a deliberate attack
so you would not have these impressions of him.
Mr. Bruce. Would it not sound odd as an analysis of an FBI
undercover informant, because this would smack of entrapment rather
than undercover work?
Mr. GiACOMO. I am not as profound as you. I do know what it
would smack of.
Mr. Bruce. Having been through the mill, as it were, during a very
critical period of the labor movement in Wisconsin, you would be
aware of the techniques of the Communist Party. You were fighting
them.
Mr. GiACOMO. Of course, I was aware of the techniques of the Com-
munist Party, and Paul Corbin's were a lot different than their tech
niques, believe you me.
Mr. Bruce. Would this not on the surface, then, raise a question
as to whether or not he would plausibly be an undercover informant
for the FBI?
Mr. GiACOMO. Then why was he not exposed in the John Sentinel
articles? They put the finger on everybody else, and this guy [Cor-
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1257
bin] made no attempt to cast suspicion away from him. Wliy wasn't
he mentioned or exposed in the John Sentinel story ?
Mr. Bruce. I don't know.
Mr. GiACOMO. I don't either, and it would not surprise me if he were
sieving — siphoning off infonnation to the guts of this story, because
the guy who wrote the stoiy is not named John Sentinel.
Mr. Bruce. But you have a definite feeling in your own mind ■
Mr. GiACOMO. Yes, sir, and try as I might, I just can't relieve my-
self of it. Everything just conies back as far as I am concerned in
making my owti analysis in my own experienced way. I mean this
surely must have happened. Would you say that Senator McCarthy
would be caught dead knowing that a man was a Communist, having
a picture [taken of himself] embracing a fellow after he had conducted
all of these hearings and everything else? This all happened while
Paul Corbin was commandant of the Marine Corps League,
Mr, Bruce. Mr, Corbin, in the Milwaukee Journal items, gave a
rather forceful explanation and repudiation of this, saying it was not
an embracement at all, but it Avas a situation of immediate advantage
to causes in which he was interested.
Mr. GiACOMO. Let's say I don't know what it was, that they did not
even touch one another or did not even shake hands, but would you
not, before you would appear at a meeting anywhere — let's say I in-
vited you to appear before a meeting that I was chairing, would you
not want to know something about me before you appeared there as a
Congressman of the United States? Don't you think Senator Mc-
Carthy's mind
Mr. Bruce. I have no idea what might have gone through his mind.
Mr. GiACOMO, As waiy as he was, I am sure he got the book on Mr.
Corbin before he appeared.
Mr, Bruce. You repeated on a number of occasions that you have a
strong feeling that Corbin was actually the man who slipped informa-
tion for the Sentinel story, supplied it ; is that right ?
Mr. GiACOMO. He is capable of it,
Mr, Bruce, Do you think he did? Do you have any evidence that
would indicate to you that he did ?
Mr. GiACOMO, Just this feeling that I have on this.
Mr, Bruce, In other words, you felt that this man Corbin was an
undercover FBI informant, also possibly in the employ of somebody
who was writing an expose ?
Mr, GiACOMO, Or even an employers group, or some other group.
I never just pinned him down. The FBI was my first
Mr. Bruce, Apparently your last, up until the FBI interviewed
you,
Mr, Scherer, Would you yield for one brief question ?
Mr, Bruce. Yes.
Mr, Scherer. You have checked with the union and found out he
was not an agent for the union in any way ?
Mr. GiAcoMO. What union ?
Mr. Scherer. Have you checked to find out whether he was an agent
or spy for a union ?
Mr. GiACOMO. No; where would I go to check this? Would you
please tell me ?
1258 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. ScHERER. I don't know. I thought maybe you would know.
We are just trying to eliminate things.
Mr. Gl\como. If I knew where to go to check, I would go and check.
At least I would relieve myself, one way or another, that my impres-
sions were or were not correct.
Mr. Bruce. I am still baffled about the conclusion that you drew
that a man who fits the description that you gave so vigorously —
pathological liar, mouthy, domineering, and so forth — could conceiv-
ably be. an FBI undercover informant.
Mr. GiAcoMO. Are you trying to get me to say that that kind of a
man could not be ? Are you trying to get me to say that a man of that
description could not be ? Because that I will not say because I don't
know. I don't know.
]Mr. DoTLE. Are there any other questions of this witness ?
Mr. GiAcoMO. I would like you to know that I wish that, in the final
analysis, my opinion of Paul Corbin is right, because I would just not
ever want to feel that I had formed an opinion of— I mean, after all,
it is terrible to know that you were wrong about a person.
Mr. Doyle. Do you have any other questions. Congressman Bruce ?
Mr. Bruce. No ; I do not.
Mr. Doyle. Have you ever attended a Communist Party meeting
with Mr. Corbin or any meeting called by Communists in Wisconsin
at which he was present ?
Mr. GiAcoMO. No, sir. If there were Communists there at some
meetings that I attended, I would know about them. Usually the
meetings that I was to, whenever they were called, were meetings
where labor, in general, attended.
I might add here I worked with Emil Costello and I visited his
home and he visited mine. I knew his father and his sister and
brothers.
Mr. ScHERER. Wlio was Emil Costello ?
Mr. GuvcoMO. He was on the staff and he was called before the
grand jury here in Washington, I think back in 1947, in connection
with this Christoffel business ^ in Milwaukee; and it was established, I
think without question, that he was a Communist, although I don't
think he answered any questions at all. He took the fifth amend-
ment— I always thought that Emil was
Mr. Doyle. He is not before the committee in any way, is he ?
Mr. Tavenner. I have been in conference with him.
Mr. Doyle. Do I understand you to say that at a public meeting in
Wisconsin, Senator McCarthy, now deceased, was on the same plat-
form with Paul Corbin ?
Mr. GiAcoMO. Mr. Chairman, it was a convention of the Marine
Corps League, I believe.
Mr. Doyle. In Milwaukee ?
Mr. GiACOMO. I don't know whether it was in Milwaukee or where it
was. That I don't know, but this was the occasion.
Mr. ScHERER. Senator McCarthy was the speaker ?
Mr. GiAcoMO. He was the speaker.
1 In 1948 Harold Christoffel. a trade union official and Identified Communist was tried
for — and convicted of — perjury before a congressional committee. His conviction was
subsequently reversed by the Supreme Court on a technicality. In 1950 he was again
tried and convicted for the same charge.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1259
Mr. Doyle. Corbin was commandant of the Marine Corps League
under whose auspices Senator McCarthy spoke 'i
Mr. GiACOMo. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. As I recall it, neither time that Paul Corbin gave you
an invitation or asked you about the party did he mention the word
Communist, is that right, or do you have any positive recollection on
that point ?
Mr. GiACOMo. No; I do not have. To say that he actually said
Communist Party, I just could not just emphatically say yes to that;
no, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Have you now given us the best of your recollection of
any incident or any occasion or any circumstance of your own knowl-
edge in connection with Paul Corbin, there being any possibility of his
being a Communist ? In other words, have you told us all you know
about him? I don't want to use the term '*any connection with the
Communist Party" because I don't think there has been any shown
here of a connection with the Communist Party so I don't want to ask
something that is not joroven
Mr. ScHERER. Let me say for the record I disagree with the conclu-
sions of the chairman.
Mr. Doyle. I know you do, but I want counsel of the committee to
know what my own conclusion is just immediately after hearing the
testimony.
Do you have any other witnesses on this point. Counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner. Off the record.
(A brief discussion was held off the record.)
Mr. GiAcoMO. On several occasions, whenever the name Paul Corbin
would come up, and there were given opinions by me of Paul's pretense
of being a Communist in order to get information that he was giving
to someone, and that I believe that it was as an agent for the FBI,
however, he could have been a spy in other directions. This I have
told to many people. I could not sit here and divulge how many
people I have said this to.
Mr. ScHERER. I understand the staff has talked to this witness in an
effort to determine the names of the individuals with whom he dis-
cussed Corbin's pretense at being a Communist.
Mr. Tavenner. No, we have not, but we have followed every sug-
gestion that this witness could give us as to persons who may have
knowledge of the things that we are inquiring about.
We were not interested in following what he mi^ht have said to
somebody else, but we were trying to get information from people
themselves who would have knowledge. That is the distinction we
wanted to make.
Mr. JoHANSEN. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask just two or three
questions to close up my part of the inquiry.
Am I to understand, Mr. Counsel, in the discussions with the staff,
that this witness, that he indicated to the staff in what he told them
that he regarded this as a pretense of Communist affiliation, rather
than a claim of Communist affiliation ?
Mr. Tamsnner. He has expressed that opinion throughout.
Mr. JoHANSEN. That he was claiming it, or there was an element of
pretense ?
87845—62 3
1260 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Tavenner. I did not discuss with him the element of pretense
on the part of Corbin. I did discuss his own personal opinion of the
matter. I told the witness it is not a question of your personal
opinion ; it is a question of what are
Mr. JoHANSEN. My point is, simply, it is one thing for the witness
to testify that Corbin claimed to be a Communist or have Communist
connections; it is another thing for a witness to give, as his opinion,
his subjective judgment that this claim was a pretense; and I think
the record should be clear that, at least at the outset of his testimony,
he testified with respect to claims made by Corbin.
I would like to ask the witness just two questions to firm up the
record.
Mr. Ta\^nner. May I interrupt j^ou there ? Off the record.
(A brief discussion was held off the record. )
Mr. JoHANSEN. Did I not understand you to say that Corbin made
statements to you that he was going to, or had been at, a high-level
meeting of the Communist Party ? Is that correct ?
Mr. GiACOMO. That is correct.
Mr. JoHANSEN. So to that degree, at least, you testified that, regard-
less of any interpretation you placed on it, that there was to that ex-
tent a claim of some association with the Communist Party? Is that
correct, that Corbin made that claim by these statements ?
Mr. GiACOMO. He made that claim by these statements, and I also
said I did not believe him.
Mr. JoHANSEN, I understand that, but I want to draw a very sharp
line that he did, to your knowledge, make such a claim — whether you
think it fantastic or whatever.
The second question is : T^Hien he asked 3'ou about when you were go-
ing to join the party or if you were going to join the party, you
are not certain "to the best of your recollection" that he referred to it
as the "Communist" Party? You are clear, certainly, that he was
not referring to the Republican or Democratic Party ?
Mr. GiACOMO. I don't think that he was. I don't believe he was.
Mr. JoHAisrsEN. In the whole connotation of that and other com-
ments, you construed it then to be the Communist Party ?
Mr. GiACOMO. That is right, although as I say, I have no recollec-
tion of his mentioning the word "Communist."
Mr. Dottj:. The bells have sounded again. It seems to me with the
status of this hearing, there ought not to be, by any stretch of the
imagination, any release of any kind, direct or indirectly going out on
this hearing. I think the committee would agree with me it would
do irreparable damage. I was asked to act as chairman, and that is
my opinion. There should be no testimony or any part of any testi-
mony to go out, to be used in a release, directly or indirectly, unless
there is more evidence about this man, Paul (Sorbin, being a Com-
munist than there is thus far. That goes for the witnesses as well.
Mr. GiACOMO. If I am told by this committee not to say anything
about this, you can rest assured nothing in this hearing room will be
mentioned to anyone.
Mr. Tavenner. We cannot make the investigation of this in one
moment. We have to do it by degrees as we develop the testimony.
We think it better to take it as we develop it.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1261
Mr, DoYUE. In the developing of it, there is no need for publicity
about a man who has not yet been identified as a Communist.
Mr. Tavenner. Certainly the staff had no intention of making any-
thing public.
During the course of your testimony, you made a statement which
was not responsive to a specific question in which you made reference
to requests made by Paul Corbin of you to make contributions to the
Coimnunist Party. Explain that, please.
Mr. GiACOMO. Well, he would just ask me pointblank, "Wouldn't
you like to make a contribution to the party ^" And he would tell
me of some — I don't remember now for what purpose, but some sort
of activity that was going on, and I would always tell him "No," I
could not afford it, and so on and so forth. I could not recall just
now what purpose it was for.
Mr. ScHERER. Do you know if he made that request to anyone else ?
Mr. GiAcoMO. No, I don't.
Mr. Tavenner. Was any statement made as to whom the money
should be paid ?
Mr. GiACOMO. No. The impression I got was if I wanted to make a
contribution, I could make it to him.
Mr. Tavenner. In that connection, did he use the term "Communist
Party"?
Mr. GiACOMO. I don't know. Here again I don't know whether he
said merely "party" or "the Communist Party." I would not want
to say that he said "Communist Party."
Mr. ScHERER. There was no question in your mind under the circum-
stances to what party he referred ?
Mr. GiACOMO. That is right.
Mr. Doyle. The subcommittee will stand in recess.
(Whereupon, at 1 :05 p.m., Wednesday, September 6, 1961, the sub-
committee recessed to reconvene at the call of the Chair.)
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
MONDAY, NOVEMBER 13, 1961
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D.C.
executive session ^
The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities con-
vened at 10:20 a.m., in Room 219, Old House Office Building, Hon,
A¥illiam M. Tuck presidinji:.
Stall' members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., director; Alfred
M. Nittle, counsel; Raymond T. Collins and Neil E. Wetterman, in-
vestigators.
Mr. Tuck. Will you raise your right hand ?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before
the House Committee on Un-American Activities will be the truth,
the Avhole truth, and notliing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Scott. I do.
TESTIMONY OF HAROLD SOOTT, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
HIEAM M. NOWLAN, JR.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Scott. Harold Scott.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying Mr. Scott identify him-
self?
Mr. NowLAN. Hiram Nowlan, Jr., attorney at law, from Janesville,
Wis.
Mr. Tavenner. ]SIr. Scott, you were subpenaed to appear before the
committee as a witness and tlie committee has received work from you,
through your counsel, that you wanted to appear here prior to the
originally sclieduled hearing and make certain explanations to the
committee regarding your own activities and your knowledge about
the subject under inquiry. Is that correct ?
Mr. Scott. I guess so. I understood this was to be the hearing it-
self. The subpena I received was for this date.
Mr. Tavenner. That is correct. The hearing was continued to a
later date.
When we learned that you desired to appear here ahead of that
hearing, we permitted you to appear under this subpena.
1 Released by the committee and ordered to be printed.
1263
1264 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. NowLAN. That is substantially correct.
Mr. Tavexxer. Now, Mr. Scott, will you tell us where you reside ?
Mr. Scott. Route 3, Janesville, Wis.
Mr. Ta%^nner. "V\'liat is your occupation ?
Mr. Scott. Electronic technician for Oak Manufacturing at Elk-
horn, Wis.
Mr. Tav'enner. How long have you lived in Janesville ?
Mr. Scott. All my life, except for about 2 years at college.
Mr. Tavenner. "\Vliere did you attend college ?
Mr. Scott. Beloit.
Mr. Ta^t.nner. Mr. Scott, have you been acquainted with a person
by the name of Paul Corbin ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, I have known him.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you first become acquainted with Mr.
Corbin ?
Mr. Scott. As to the exact date, I could not say definitely. I think
it was approximately only 1945, 1946.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that at your home in Janesville ?
Mr. Scott. Yes. I think that is the first time I met him. I am
not positive. It has been some time ago. I may have met him some
place else, but that is the first time I recall becoming acquainted with
him.
Mr. Tavenner. How were you employed at that time ?
Mr. Scott, I was farming at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. Farming?
Mr. Scott. My own farm.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Mr. Corbin living in Janesville at the time
you first became acquainted with him ?
Mr. Scott. I am not sure. I am rather of the opinion that he
wasn't, but lie may liave been. I am not positive.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he marry locally in Janesville ?
Mr. Scott. Well, he married a girl that lived there. I don't know
whether he married there or not.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, he married a Janesville girl ?
Mr. Scott. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall her name ?
Mr. Scott. McGowan was her last name, I believe.
Mr. Tavenner. Was her first name Gertrude ?
Mr. Scott, That is right, now that you mention it. I was just
trying to think of it.
Mr. Ta\tinner. Prior to her marriage to Mr. Corbin, had she been
married to a person by the name of Cox ?
Mr. Scott. That I couldn't say. I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you and your wife become closely associated
with Mr. Corbin and his wife after the marriage of Corbin ?
Mr. Scott. I wouldn't say so ; no.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your opportunity of becoming acquainted
with Mr. Corbin and his wife ?
Mr. Scott. Well, as I recall it, he came out with some other peo-
ple whom I was acquainted with to hunt pheasants. Through that we
became acquainted.
I don't know at the time whether he was living in Janesville or not.
I am not sure as to that. I am just trying to recall where he was
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1265
living at the time, but I don't know. At least, he must have moved to
Janesville soon after because I saw him off and on afterward.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you see both Mr. Corbin and his wife off and
on?
Mr. Scott. Well, usually Paul, himself, rather than his wife, al-
though I have seen his wife.
Mr. Tavenner. Did they visit in your home and you visit in their
home ?
Mr. Scott. I wouldn't exactly call it that. He came out and bought
poultry quite often.
I have been up there two or three times. One of the times he
bought some sort of hi-fi record changer and he asked my opinion
on it as long as he knew I was interested — at that time electronics
servicing was more of a hobby to me than a business because I was
farming.
Another time he was moving liis television set to the basement and
he wanted me to change the antenna connection over.
I think possibly we were up there together one time shortly after he
moved in his new house, to see his house.
Mr. Tavenner. How was Paul Corbin employed at the time you
first met him ?
Mr. Scott. I believe he was employed by some union. I couldn't say
definitely which one. I think it was some public workers union.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know in what capacity he was employed?
Mr. Scott. No, I couldn't say.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did Paul Corbin remain in the commu-
nity of Janesville, as nearly as you can tell, after you first met him ?
Mr. Scott. Up until the election time, last Presidential election •
Mr. Tavenner. That has been his home, then, since the time you
first knew him ?
Mr. Scott. That is right, most of the time. I think possibly he
had just moved to Janesville. I am not sure.
Mr. Tavenner. Now I want to give you an opportunity to tell the
committee in your own. words anything that you have in mind re-
garding your own activities during that period and Mr. Corbin's.
You asked the privilege of coming in, in advance, so I want to give
you now an opportunity to state whatever you have in mind stating,
and then possibly I will ask you some questions.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Before you start, if you prefer that I ask ques-
tions, why, I shall be very glad to do it.
Mr. Scott. It does not make too much difference. I assume the
purpose — I would not call it a hearing, what is the technical term
for it?
Mr. Tavenner. It is a preliminary investigation.
Mr. Scott (continuing). Was mainly because of my past activities
as a Communist.
I have been a member of the Communist Party in the past. I
don't know exactly what to say. It was a mistake, I think now.
Mr. Tavenner. I will tell you what I think is a good way to dis-
cuss that.
You tell the committee when you became a member of the Commu-
nist Party and why you became a member.
1266 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
I think that would be helpful for the committee to understand j^our
situation a little better and, when you have done that, if you left
the Communist Party, then tell the committee when and state why.
Mr. Scott. Well, that is a rather general question.
I first joined the party sometime in the thirties for about 2 months.
Then I dropped out. I had been what you might call a '•sympathizer'
with the Commmiists, with the Communist Party.
To put it bluntly, I thought possibly the}^ could help the country.
During the thirties for some reason, it seemed to me, as though the
means of distributing what we were producing had broken down
some way — now it looks to me rather foolishly — I thought perhaps
some form of socialism would be a way out of the problems that the
country was facing at the time.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you in school at that time or were you at home
in Janesville?
Mr. Scott. I was home in Janesville.
Mr. Tavenner. When did 3^ou complete your college work ?
Mr. Scott. I only went 2 years, in 1930, "31, "32, during those years
I was at college.
Mr. Tavenner. So you became a member for several months before
you went to college ?
Mr. Scott. No; that was afterward.
Mr. Tavenner. I misunderstood you.
Mr. Scott. Later in the thirties, I would say possibly 1936 or along
in there. Again I could not say definitely. Perhaps you have more
of a record than I have on that.
Then I dropped out for quite a long period. I was still interested
but I couldn't stand their intolerance of everybody else that thought
different than they did.
Then in about 1949 — I could not give you the exact date — about
1949, 1 dropped out. I would say 1946 or 1945, maybe, I [had] again
joined the party.
At that time I thought possibly they had changed their attitude for
ideas other than the exact party line. I thought, I guess you would
call it, becoming more liberalized.
Then I belonged, I think, for about 4 or 5 years until after the
takeover of Czechoslovakia. Then I quit soon after that. I couldn't
give the exact date, again.
Let us see. That was 1948 — I would say sometime in 1949. As to
why I joined, it is pretty hard to put in words. Now it looks rather
foolish.
That is about all I can mention now, I think.
Mr. Tavenner. What group in the Communist Party were you
assigned to in 1945 ?»
Mr. Scott. I belonged — well, usually with the Beloit group.
Mr. Tavenner. Did it have any further name than the Beloit group
of tlie Communist Party ?
Mr. Scott. No ; T don't think so.
Mr. Tavenner. How many composed that group?
Mr. Scott. I would say tliere were six members beside myself. I
l>elieve there w^ere six.
Mr. Tavenner. How far is Beloit from Janesville?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1267
Mr. Scott. About 13 miles.
Mr. Tavenner. Who recruited you into the Communist Party in
1945 ; that is, who led you back into the party i
Mr. SooTT. I wouldn't say anybody led me. I did it myself. In
other words, when I belonged to the party before, I was acquainted
with Fred Blair. I went to see him and I said I was interested in
be<?oming active again.
Mr. TA\'E]srNER. Where did Fred Blair reside at that time ?
Mr. Scott. I think he probably resided in Milwaukee. I went to
the party office there.
Mr. Tavenner. How far is Janesville from Milwaukee?
Mr. Scott. About 72 miles, I believe ; 70 miles.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat position did Fred Blair have in the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Scott. I think he was State chairman.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he State chairman during the entire period
that you were a member for the second time ; that is, from 1945 to 1949
or 1950?
Mr. Scott. That I couldn't say. I think he was most of the time.
It seems to me as though — I couldn't say for sure. I am trying to
think of another name, the State chairman. I don't think so.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you know Fred Blair when you went into the
Commmiist Party the first time in the late thirties ?
Mr. Scott. Not prior to that, no.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wlien did you first become acquainted with Fred
Blair?
Mr. Scott. I don't exactly recall when I did first meet him.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it as early as 1940 ?
Mr. Scott. Yes; I think it was before then. I think it was in the
thirties that I had met him, sometimes then.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat position did he hold in the Communist Party
at the time you met him ?
Mr. Scott. That I couldn't say.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. What were the circumstances under which you be-
came acquainted with Fred Blair?
Mr. Scott. I rather recollect that — well, I had been interested in
the party back in the thirties. I am of the opinion that he was the
person who urged me to join the party back in the thirties. I am not
positive. I don't know what connection he had with the party at that
time. I am not even sure he was the person that did it, but I think
he was the one.
Mr. Tavenner. I am not certain that I understood you correctly as
to the time when you say you left the Communist Party.
Mr. Scott. I believe it was in 1949, I think. I am not positive of
the exact date. It may have been a year earlier or a year later.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, I would like to ask you where the Communist
Party meetings of your unit or group of the party were held from 1945
until you left the party in 1949 or 1950.
Mr. Scott. Actually, there weren't too many of them. "Wlien they
were held they were usually held at some member's house.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, does that mean that those meetings were held
at your home, as well as the homes of other members ?
1268 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Scott. Yes, I think there was one meetino; at my place although,
because I was some distance from Beloit, usually they were down in
Beloit.
Mr, Tavenner. Were there other members from Janesville besides
yourself ?
Mr. Scott. No.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Of tlie Beloit group ?
Mr. Scott. Not that I know of.
Mr. Tamsnner. I think you should tell us now all that you know
regarding the activities of that group that you were a member of,
including the names of those who were in the party with you.
Mr. Scoi'T. The activities weren't much to mention. Mostly it was
merely payment of dues and, as far as activities, they mainly consisted
of selling either the Sunday Wo7'ker or the Daily Worker to people
who might be interested in it.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall what section of the Communist Party
it was that your group was a member of ?
Mr. Scott. No, I just can't recall any section name given to it. I
suppose you mean
Mr. Tavenner. Normally there is a section that is made up of repre-
sentatives from a number of groups.
I am trying to find out what section it was that your group was a
member of.
Mr. Scott. So far as I know, there was no section at all.
Mr. Tavenner. Did your group have to report to a functionary of
the Communist Party of higher rank and on a higher level than your
own group ?
Mr. Scott. Well, occasionally there was a State conference held, I
think, and occasionally somebody from the State office would come
down to Beloit. But I can't think of any section name that I know of.
Mr. Tavenner. Very well. Tell us the names of the functionaries
of the Communist Party or the representatives from the State office
or any other place who came or who attended your meetings.
Mr. Scott. I have already mentioned Fred Blair. Sigmund
Mr. Tavenner. May I help to refresh your recollection?
Was he at one time a candidate for Governor of the State of AVis-
consin, the person to whom you refer ?
Mr. Scott. I couldn't say. I don't remember that he was but he
could have been.
There was his sister, Esther, who occasionally came down.
I think possibly Mary Keith, I believe. She used to work in the
bookstore.
Mr. Tavenner. Where was the bookstore located ?
Mr. Scott. It was on the main street in Milwaukee. It was called
the People's Bookshop, or something of the sort-.
Mr. Tavenner. Was the person to whom you referred a moment
ago as "Sigmund," Sigmund G. Eisenscher?
Mr. Scott. I would say probably that is it ; I am not positive.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, this individual did run for Gov-
ernor of the State of Wisconsin on the Communist ticket.
Now, will you proceed to give us the names of other persons who
were not members of your group who attended meetings?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1269
Did Paul Corbin attend some of your meetings ?
Mr. Scott. I don't think so. No, not that I know of.
Mr. Tavenner. You say you don't think so ?
Mr. Scott. No. I mean I wasn't at all the meetings. I couldn't
say definitely he did or didn't. To the best of my recollection, he did
not.
Mr. Tavenner. Did his wife attend any of those meetings?
Mr. Scott. No, I don't think so. That is my best recollection.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you know Paul Corbin to be a member of the
Communist Party at any time during the period that you actually
knew him, or any prior period, from statements he may have made to
you?
Mr. Scott. Well, I don't know. As far as I know, he was not a
member. As to what you mean by statements he made, that is a rather
unusual question.
Mr. Tavenner. It is not unusual at all. I often have people ask me
what political party I am a member of or what societies of one kind
or another. It is a very usual question among friends.
Mr. Scott. Well, any recollection of any discussions I had with him
I don't recollect him saying he was a member of the party.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you and Mr. Corbin discuss communism?
Mr. Scott. Possibly. I assume he probably knew I was a member
of the party. I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. How did he know you were a member of the party ?
Mr. Scott. Possibly I could have been trjang to sell him The
Worker or something. I wouldn't say — I mean it is nothing that I
have kept secret, myself.
At the time I was a member, I was not ashamed to admit it.
Mr. Tavenner. Then you discussed the matter of communism freely
with any friend of yours wdiere the subject would come up; is that
true?
Mr. Scott. Yes, but, nevertheless, lots of my friends declined to
discuss it with me. So I don't know. I couldn't say definitely he
said he was a Communist. I wouldn't say — I don't know what else
to say exactly.
Perhaps I am being a bit evasive. Well, I think I had better wait
until you ask another question.
Mr. Tavenner. No, w^e want to know what you know about Paul
Corbin's activities in Janesville at the time you were acquainted with
him, and just proceed to tell us what you know about him.
You said you would not state definitely that he was a member of
the Communist Party. I think that was about the language you used.
But from the way in which you have expressed yourself and your hesi-
tancy to answer these questions, it indicates that you must have some
knowledge which would be of value to this committee regarding Paul
Corbin. I would like you to say what it is.
Mr. Scott. I don't think it is of value other than what came out in
the papers. I knew he associated with, in fact he has even talked with
me
Mr. Tavenner. You started to say who he associated with.
To whom did you have reference ?
Mr. Scott. I had reference to originally when I first met him, there
was some member of the CIO — I should remember the name, I did be-
1270 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
fore, but it slipped my mind now — Emil Cc^tello came out with him
when they were hunting.
As far as association with people, it has been in the papers that he
has associated, worked with the [Wisconsin] CIO at the time wlien it
was considered more or less under the control of the Communists. I
don't know whether that wa-s exactly the right statement to make but
it was considered that way. So that is about all I could offer.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, you say Costello was the one who brought
him out there to hunt pheasants. Was that the first time that vou met
Paul Corbin ?
Mr. Scott. I think it was. As far as I can remember that is the
first time that definitely sticks in my mind.
Mr. Tavenner. You knew Costello at that time was a member of
the Communist Party, didn't you ?
Mr. Scott. I was of the opinion he was a member, too, yes. I had
met him probably at some sort of a meeting in Milwaukee.
Mr. Tavenner. Actually, did you ever meet Corbin at a meeting of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Scott. No, I don't think I ever have that I can remember. ]
can't recall — of course, again, he was a member before I knew him.
He could have been at a meeting and I wouldn't remember it.
I don't know whether it was before or after.
Now that I am thinking, I met him at some sort of a picnic in
Milwaukee, but I don't remember who was sponsoring the thing. I
think it was after his hunting trip that he had out there.
Mr. Ta\T5Nner. What kind of picnic was it ?
Mr. Scott. That T couldn't say.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, you know why you went to the picnic in
Milwaukee, 70-odd miles away, don't you ?
Mr. Scott. Again, it might have been a CIO picnic or a fraternal
workers order picnic.
Mr. Tavenner. How many picnics did you attend in Milwaukee?
Mr. Scott. I think I went to one other besides that one.
Mr. Tavenner. If you went to two piciiics 70 miles away, you
certainly should not have any difficulty recalling them if you just stop
to think about it, and I want to give you plenty of time. You take all
the time you need.
Mr. ScoTT. I definitely can't remember who definitely sponsored
it. I think there probably were some Communists there. It could
have been communistic sponsored, but I don't remember. I couldn't
say definitely.
Mr. Tavenner. When was this picnic ?
Mr. ScoTT. I'd forgotten all about it until now. I couldn't say
definitely when it was.
Mr. Tavenner. That was between 1945 and 1949, was it not?
Mr. Scott. I think so, some place in there. I don't even remember
the year it was.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were some of the more prominent Communists
that you recall attended ?
Mr. Scott. I don't even remember — I think this Eisenscher's sister
was there, Esther. I don't know, we stayed a very short period of
time. I really don't remember anybody else that was there.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1271
Mr. Tavenner, Could this picnic or dinner have been sponsored
by the Midwestern Section of the Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born?
Mr. Scott. It could have been. I don't knoAv — I really can't re-
member what the official name was.
Mr. Tavenner. I am just trying to see if I can help to refresh your
recollection, possibly the suggestion of things might be of some lielp
to you.
Mr. Scott. It could have been. Let me see. I am trying to think
here. I think possibly he asked me to go
Mr. Tavenner. Wlio asked you to ?
Mr. Scott. Paul did because, as I remember, he came out looking
for some sheep to barbecue or lambs to barbecue at the time. I don't
think he got them around the neighborhood because I didn't raise
sheep at the time, and I suggested a neighbor. I don't think the
neighbor sold him any because it was during price control, and he
thought he could get into some sort of trouble there, so I don't think
he sold him any.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Now, do you recall whether Corbin spoke on that
occasion, whether he was one of the speakers?
Mr. Scott. Not that I know of. I don't think I heard any of the
speakers. I was there for a while, tried the barbecued lamb and left
very soon. Most of the people were complete strangers to me.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlio were some of the other leading Communists
that you saw there besides the sister of Eisenscher?
Mr. Scott. That is the only one I can recall now.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall who was in charge or who presided at
the affair?
Mr. Scott. No, I don't.
Mr. TAiT.NNER. Did you know a person at that time by the name
of Joseph Poskonka?
Mr. Scott, What was that last name again ?
Mr. Ta\^nner. Poskonka.
Mr. Scott. It does not bring any recollection at all to me.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Costello present?
Mr. Scott. I couldn't say. I don't remember seeing him at all.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Fred Blair present ?
Mr. Scott. I don't remember. I don't think so. I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. Were other members of your group of the Com-
munist Party present?
Mr. Scorr. No, I don't think so. I am quite sure they weren't,
because I think myself and my wife were the only ones and I knew
Paul — actually that is all I can remember that I knew at all.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Paul Corbin's wife go, too?
Mr. Scott. Yes, I am quite sure she was there, too.
Mr. Ta^^nner. Did you travel together ?
Mr. Scott, No, I am quite sure we were alone. We did not travel
together.
Mr. Taa^nner. Where was this meeting held ?
Mr. Scott. It was not a meeting. It was a picnic. I could not
even give you the name of the ground that it was held at, I think
Paul gave me the directions to get to it.
1272 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Tavenner. Was it inside Milwaukee ?
Mr, Scott. I don't think it was inside the city limits. It was close,
in the Greater Milwaukee area, I guess you would say.
Mr. Ta\t.nner. Who were the other members of your group of the
Communist Party at the time you became a member in 1945 ?
Mr. Scott. You mean in Beloit ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Scott. Jack Lyons, Tom Riley, Ann Olen. There was a Wil-
son Olds.
Mr. Tuck. Did you say Mr. Corbin came to buy some sheep or
some lambs for slaughter ?
Mr. Scott. That is right. They were going to barbecue, as I
remember. In fact, I am sure they barbecued some for the picnic
but I don't know where they got them.
Mr. Tuck. He came to your house looking for them ?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Mr. Tuck. That was Mr. Corlnn ?
Mr. Scott. That is right.
Mr. Tuck. He was buying them for the purpose of using them at
this picnic?
Mr. Scott. I think he was, yes.
Mr. Tuck. Was he there at the picnic ?
Mr. Scott. Was he there at the picnic ?
Mr. Tuck. Yes.
Mr. Scott. I am quite sure he was. I am almost positive.
Mr. Tuck. When Avas the picnic held ?
Mr. Scott. That I can't remember, either the date or the place.
Mr. Tuck. Was it given last year or the year before last ?
Mr. Scott. No, it was during the time that I was a member of
the party. So it would be between, approximately between, I would
say it was in the later period, probably 1948 or 1949. Possibly a
year before or after. I am sorry it is rather indefinite.
Mr. Tuck. Do you recall whether it was in the fall, spring, or
summer ?
Mr. Scott. I would say it was about July — July or August, I believe,
because I think it was quite warm.
Mr. Tuck. Did tliey have a big crowd there ?
Mr. Scott. I don't know, I would say 150 maybe, or so.
Mr. Tuck. Men and women ?
Mr. ScoiT. Yes.
Mr. Tuck. What did they do for entertainment ?
Mr. Scott. Nothing that I know of. They had barbecued lamb.
I don't know, I left soon after we had a little lamb.
Mr. Tuck. What time of day was it ? An all-day picnic ?
Mr. Scott. I assumed it was going to be. We went shortly before
dinner or shortly after.
Mr. Tuck. You mean dinner in the middle of the day ?
Mr. Scott. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, you were telling us a little while ago as to
the circumstances which I understood led you to believe that Corbin
may have been a member of the Communist Party. You mentioned
the fact that he was with Costello, the fact that Costello brought him
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1273
out there to do pheasant huntmg on your property and you knew
Costello was a member of the Communist Party. Now I want to fol-
low that up and ask you whether or not you saw Corbin with Fred
Blair.
Mr. Scott. No, I don't think I ever have seen them together that I
can remember.
Mr. Tavenner. It seems to me that you were having difficulty in
recalling who it was that you knew to be a member of the Communist
Party and a close associate of Corbin. I think you said Costello.
Now, is there any other person in that category ?
Mr. Scott. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Any other persons that were known to you to be
members of the Communist Party who were closely associated with
Paul Corbin?
Mr. Scott. I believe there were about, I am just trying to think
who was in the hunting party, too, at that time
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Joe Kennedy with whom
Mr. Corbin was associated in union work ?
Mr. Scott. No ; I don't think I am acquainted with him that I know
of.
Mr. Tavenner. All right. Maybe I disrupted your chain of
thought.
Mr. Scott. I am just thinking of who else was in the hunting party.
I don't think there was a Joe Kennedy. I am not positive. It was
some time ago. Again it is something that has not stuck in my mind
at all except in relationship with Paul because I had met him since
then. I couldn't say definitely who else was in the party. I am not
even positive that Costello was in but I think he was. I am quite sure
he was the one who, more or less, concocted the hunting party.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Christoffel, Harold Christoffel, present at the
picnic that you described in Milwaukee ?
Mr. Scott. I don't know whether he was or not.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Christoffel at any time attend a Communist
Party meeting at which you were present ?
Mr. Scott. Again, I don't know. I wouldn't know Mr. Christoffel
if I had met him. I don't think so.
Mr. Tavenner. How many Communist Party meetings were held
at vour home between 1045 and 1950?
Mr. Scott. I think two, as I remember. Maybe more, but I am
not positive on tlie number there. Possibly more.
Ml'. Tavenner. Give us the names of those who were present in
your home.
Mr. Scott. Again, I am not positive. I don't know. It seems to
have been something that I just shut off in my memory, more or
less. I couldn't say definitely which ones were there that were mem-
bers of the party. If you have the list of the members that I am
trying to recall who were members of the party when I was, I assume
any one of them could be but I am not definite on that.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, you identified a Jack Lyons as one of the
members of your Communist Party group. Did he attend any one of
these meetings in your home? Does that help you to refresh your
recollection?
1274 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Scott. I think probably, but again I am not positive on that.
I assume he probably would.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Going back to the question I asked you a while ago
as to whether or not Paul Corbin was known to you to have been a
member of the Communist Party at any time, you vrere attempting
to search your memory, as I recall it, as to whether or not he said
anything to you, indicating that he had been a member.
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you at this time recall any statement that Cor-
bin made to you with regard to the Communist Party?
Mr. Scott. No, I don't recall any statement now.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Do you recall any conversation that the two of you
had regarding the Communist. Party?
Mr. Scott. No, I don't think so. At the time I was talking with
him, at the time I met him more often, I was, you might say, in the
process of withdrawing or becoming more, having more reservations
as to their actual names. So I can't think of any time when we
directly discussed the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he ask you for a contribution to a Communist
Party cause?
Mr. Scott. No: I don't think I have ever, in fact I am quite sure
I have not given him any money.
Mr. TA\Ti:NNER. I diet not ask you whether you had given it to him.
I asked, did he ever ask you ?
Mr, Scott. No ; I don't think he asked me for any, for any reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ask for a contribution from him to the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Scott. No ; I don't think I have. I am quite sure not.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, you spoke of Mr. Costello. Wliat was your
knowledge of Mr. Costello's Communist Party membership?
Mr. Scott. I seem to recall seeing him at a conference I attended
once in Milwaukee.
Mr. Tavenner. What kind of conference ?
Mr. Scott. I think it was a party State conference, convention, or
something of the sort. I think that is where I met him. I am not
positive. I may have met him at some other occasion.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Paul Corbin present in your home at any time
when there was a meeting being held of the Commmiist Party ?
Mr. Scott. No ; I am quite sure not.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Paul Corbin's wife, Gertrude, ever present in
your home when a Communist Party meeting was being held ?
Mr. ScoiT. No ; I am quite sure not.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been present at a Communisst Party
meeting at a time when Mrs. Gertrude Corbin was present?
Mr. Scott. Not that I can recall ; no, I don't think so.
Again, she may have been at that conference. I had known her
slightly before I met Paul. I mean just the name is all.
So, she could have possibly been present at some meeting and I
didn't know her.
Mr. Tavenner. You say she may have been present at the
conference ?
Mr. Scott. In fact, that could be applied to anybody. Even any
gentleman here could have been at some meeting.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCLRNESTG PAUL CORBIN 1275
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, but you made the suggestion that she may have
been present at the conference.
Mr. Scott. I mean in the same terms that anybody could have been
and I not realize it because I don't know them.
I don't wish to imply that she had more likelihood of being there
than anybody else that I know of.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Did you ever discuss the Communist Party with
Mrs. Corbin ?
Mr. Scott. No ; I am quite sure not.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Mrs. Corbin a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Scott. No ; not to my knowledge.
Mr. TA^'EXXER. Have you received any knowledge or information
from any source, including your own personal knowledge, that Paul
Corbin was at any time affiliated with the Communist Party ?
Mr. Scott. No.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Have you received any information or do you have
any personal knowledge that he was at any time connected with the
Young Communist League ?
Mr. Scott. No.
Mr. Ta^^nner. Were you a member of the Civil Rights Congress?
Mr. Scott. I don't think I was ever a member ; no.
Mr. Ta%t:nner. Were you a member of any organization in which
Paul Corbin was also a member ?
Mr. Scott. Not to my knowledge ; no.
Wait a minute. I am just trying to think of whether he was ever
a member of the Progressive Party when Heni'y Wallace was run-
ning, but I can't recall that he was. From the conversation I had
with him, I don't think he has ever attended any meetings I know of,
of the Progressive Party when Henry Wallace was running for
President.
I more or less have the opinion that he was more or less in favor
of it, but I wouldn't say definitely whether he was or wasn't.
Let me see. There was some — again, I may have to ask you to
refresh my memory— there was a progressive Congressman, wasn't
there, from Milwaukee, who was elected for a short period of time
in about 1946 or 1947 ? I am tiying to recall his name.
I rather think that Paul was more or less in favor of his candidacy
but I am not positive.
As to Mr. Wallace himself, I can't recall any definite commitment
on him.
Mr. Ta\^nner. There was a period, you will recall, when the Com-
munist Party was temporarily disbanded and the party was reor-
ganized in the name of the Communist Political Association. Was
Paul Corbin at any time a member of the Communist Political
Association ?
Mr. Scott. No ; not to my knowledge.
Mr. Tuck, "\^'^len was the last time you saw Paul Corbin?
Mv. Scott. I don't think I have seen him since the election.
Mr. Tuck. "WTiat election ?
Mr. Scott. The last Presidential election.
Mr. Tuck. Did you see him before then ?
87845—62 4
1276 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Scott. AVell, I have seen him before the election, yes. I am
just trying to recall the exact date that I had seen him.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Scott. My counsel mentions that I had seen him at the 4-H
fair, which would be around September 16 or 17, not this last year
but the year before. I don't think I saw him at the last fair.
Mr. Tuck. At what fair?
Mr. Scott. At the Rock County 4-H Fair. I think at that time he
was working for the Democratic Party, and I think he had attended
there. I was working on an eating stand for the Grange at that time.
I think he probably came down for a hamburger, and he said "Hello."
I saw him at that time, but I think that was the last time I have seen
him. That was about 1959 or I960.
Mr. Tuck. Have you had any communications with him, directly or
indirectly, in the last few months ?
Mr. Scott. No.
Mr. Tuck. No conversations with him since ?
Mr. Scott. No.
Mr. Tuck. Since you have been summoned to appear here before
this committee ?
Mr. Scott. No.
Mr. Tuck. When was the last time vou had a conversation with
him?
Mr. Scott. I can't think of the last time. He has been out to my
house. It has been some time because I think it has been 2 or 3 years
since I have raised any chickens, so he has no reason for coming out.
He used to buy fat hens that had a poor market value or otherwise.
For some reason he seemed to like them and would come out to buy
hens. That is the main time I saw him.
Mr. Tuck. Did he buy them in large quantities ?
Mr. Scott. No, one or two at a time, off and on every 2 or 8 weeks
possibly, depending on the season of the year, I guess. Sometimes he
would be out quite often and sometimes he would go for quite a wliile.
Mr. Taatenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. NowLAN. There is one other thing I think Mr. Scott should
bring out for his own peace of mind, and so forth.
Mr. ScoTT. Mr. Nowlan thinks that I should bring out the fact
that at one time I was on the State Committee of the party. I don't
know whether that means much or not.
Mr. Tavenner. Give us the date.
Mr. Scott. That I can't definitely — in fact, I think probably it was
the Communist Political Association at the time. Maybe that would
help you on the date. I don't think I was ever actually a member of
the party itself.
Mr. Ta^^nner. That would be 1945 ?
Mr. Scott. That sounds veiy like it. It was possibly 1946. I don't
rememl>er the dates when it changed.^
Mr. Tavenner. Did you hold any other office or position in the
Communist Party outside of your own local group ?
1 The Communist Party called itself the "Communist Political Association" during the
period May 1944 to July 1945.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1277
Mr. Scott. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a delegate to the State convention?
Mr. Scott. I think I have been, yes. A State convention or a con-
ference, I don't remember tlie exact title but I have been to one or
two State conventions. I don't know whether two or only one.
I couldn't say definitely.
Mr. Ta\t^nner. Now, did Blair, Fred Blair, a functionary of the
Conmiunist Party in Wisconsin, ever discuss Paul Corbin witli you?
Mr. Scott. No. Well, he may have given me his name as somebody
interested in subscribing to Tlie Worker.
Mr. TA^^^^NER. You say he may have. Do you know? You know
whether he did or not, don't you ?
Mr. Scott. I am not positive now.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you go to Corbin and sell him The Worker?
Mr. ScoTi\ No, I didn't sell him one.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Did you try ?
Mr. ScoTT. I think possibly I did give liim some issues and asked
him if he would be interested in it. I am quite sure tlie answer was
negative because I am sure I didn't sell him a subscription or give
him one, which I did in some cases.
Mr. Tavenner. But Blair suggested to you that you see Corbin?
Mr. Scott. I am not sure whether it was Blair or whether somebody
else did. That I couldn't say. That is a possibility. I couldn't say for
sure one way or another wdiether he did or didn't.
Mr. Tavenner. That is all.
Mr. Tuck. You may be excused.
Mr. Tavenner. Unless you have some other statement you desire
to make.
Mr. Scott. That is all I can think of now.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Mr. Cliairman, I tliink that this gentleman should
be continued under his subpena to the 27th of November.
Mr. Tuck. You are excused for the day, and will continue under
subpena until Monday, the 27th of November 1961.
Mr. NowLAN. Off the record, please ?
Mr. Tuck. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
(Wliereupon, at 11 :35 a.m., Monday, November 13, 1961, the sub-
committee recessed, subject to the call of the Chair.)
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 13, 1961
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D.C.
executive session ^
The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities
met, pursuant to call, at 3 :30 p.m., in Room 219, Old House Office
Building, Washington, D.C, Hon. Clyde Doyle (chairman of the
subcommittee) presiding.
Subcommittee members: Representatives Clyde Doyle, of Cali-
fornia; Morgan M. Moulder, of Missouri; and (jordon H. Scherer, of
Ohio.
Subcommittee members present: Representatives Clyde Doyle and
Gordon H. Scherer.
Committee members also present: Representatives Donald C. Bruce,
of Indiana, and Henry C. Schadeberg, of Wisconsin.
Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., director; Alfred M.
Nittle, counsel ; and Neil E. Wetterman, investigator.
Mr. Doyle. Let the subcommittee come to order and show the
attendance of Messrs. Bruce, Scherer, Schadeberg, and Doyle.
Let me swear the witness. Will you please rise and raise your right
hand?
Do you solemnly swear you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Anderson. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF WALTER T. ANDERSON
Mr. Tavenner. You are Mr. Walter T. Anderson ?
Mr. Anderson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you live, Mr. Anderson ?
Mr. Anderson. 340 North 71st Street, Milwaukee, Wis.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your present occupation ?
Mr. Anderson. My present occupation is laying in bed.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you hold any position of any type ?
Mr. Anderson. I am with the United St eel workers of America.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your position with them ?
Mr. Anderson. Field representative.
1 Released by the committee and ordered to be printed.
I 57)
1280 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Did you mean that you are at tlie present time off
duty as a result of
Mr. Anderson. Sickness.
Mr. Tavenner. Of sickness?
Mr. Anderson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. How long have you been a field representative of
the United Steelworkers of America ?
Mr. Anderson. Since January 1, 1938.
Mr. Tavenner. During that period of time, where have you been
located with reference to the performance of your duties ?
Mr. Anderson. Well, I started out in Lewistown, Pa. ; Johnstown,
Pa. ; Lebanon, Pa. ; Buffalo, N. Y. ; Ashland, Ky. ; Middletown, Ohio ;
Butler, Pa.; and Milwaukee; and I have worked out of there and
various other States, but my home has been on 71st Street since De-
cember 30, 1943.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Anderson, are you acquainted with a person
by the name of Paul Corbin ?
Mr. Anderson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Wlien did you first become acquainted with him ?
Mr. Anderson. Oh, when the strike was in Beloit, Wis., in 1946, I
got acquainted with Paul Corbin.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you tell us the season of the year in which you
became acquainted with him ?
Mr. xVnderson. I think it was in the spring of 1947 when I first
started hauling him back and forth from Milwaukee to Janesville,
but I got acquainted with him in Milwaukee before that.
Mr. Tavenner. I understand you first became acquainted with him
in 1946.
Mr. Anderson. That is right.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Can you tell us about what time of the year this
was?
Mr. Anderson. I would say it was about the middle of the vear
1946.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Do you know how Mr. Corbin was employed at the
time you first became acquainted with him ?
Mr. Anderson. Well, he was selling ads for the [Wisconsin] CIO
News.
Mr. Ta\t<:nner. "Wlia,t was the occasion of your becoming acquainted
with him in 1916 when he was employed by the CIO A^eios.
Mr. Anderson. Well, in 1946, we was located at 108 West Wells
Street, which was known as the Commie nest.
Mr. ScHERER. What was the nest ?
Mr. Anderson. The Communist nest.
]Mr. SciiERER. I did not get your whole answer.
Mr. Anderson. I said in 1946 we was located at 108 West Wells
Street, which was known as the Communist nest.
Mr. Tavenner. What do you mean by "we were located?''
Mr. Anderson. United Steelworkers. The United Steelworkers,
Fur & Leather Workers, the Farm Equipment Workers, was all on
one floor.
Mr. Tavenner. And that was known as the Communist nest?
Mr. Anderson. That's right.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1281
Mr. Ta MANNER. Mr. Anderson, will j^ou state how well acquainted
you became with Mr. Corbin, that is, just wliat was the nature of your
association with him?
Mr. Anderson. I had no social associations with him. The best
I got acquainted witli him was when I was liauling from Milwaukee
to Janesville and I would go on to Beloit when Fairbanks JMorse
was on strike.
Mr. Tav-enner. Now, will j'ou tell us when that was?
Mr. Anderson. That was in 1947.
Mr. Tavenner. All right. Proceed.
Mr. Anderson. Just like anybody else, we had conversations and
we were talking about some of tlie situations there was in Milwaukee
and he talked about Phil Smith. He was with the United Electrical
Workers. He talked about Jim DeWitt, and he talked about Harold
Christoffel. He says, "They're great labor leaders."
I says, "They're a great bunch of Commies, is what they are. You
know the paper carries their names every day or two."
He says, "Why don't you get yourself on the right side of the
fence?"
Mr. ScHERER. Who said this to you ?
Mr. Anderson. Paul Corbin.
Mr. Bruce. This is not hearsay ?
Mr. Anderson. This is not hearsay. Tliat was said in my Chrys-
ler going between Milwaukee and Janesville. He lived in Janesville.
I would go by the way of Janesville. I didn't know county trunk A
whicli went across the corner liere and up to Beloit and instead of
going straight through on Highway 15, and he showed me the road.
That's the first time I ever knowed there w^as such a thing as a county
trunk.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Anderson, did Mr. Corbin make any explana-
tion to you of what he meant by stating to you, "Why don't you get
yourself on the right side" — I believe that is the language you
used
Mr. Anderson. That's right.
Mr. Ta\^nner (continuing), "of the fence?" Did he make any
further statement to you to indicate what he meant?
Mr. Anderson. No ; he didn't. It was dropped there.
"\'\nien I shot right out and told him — I says, "If they are great labor
leaders, all they are is a bunch of Commies and you know that as well
as I do."
Mr. Scherer. To whom did you say that ?
Mr. Anderson. I said that to Paul Corbin.
Mr. Scherer. Do I understand, then, from the answer you have just
given that you understood Corbin to mean by "getting on the right
side of the fence," to get on the right side of the fence by joining the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Anderson. Well, you will have to take from that the same as
me. I thought he meant that.
Mr. Scherer. What was your answer to him when he said that ?
Mr. Anderson. I says, "AH they are is a bunch of damn Commies,
and you know that as well as I do."
1282 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Tavenner. How often do you say you took Mr. Corbin in your
automobile to or from Janesville ?
Mr. Anderson. I'd say around three times.
jMr. Taa'enner. Was the subject of communism discussed on the
other two occasions or either of them ?
Mr. Anderson. No, sir.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Just this one occasion was the only time ?
Mr. Anderson. This one occasion.
Mr. Tavenner. And this was 1947 ?
Mr. Anderson. That's rio;lit.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you identify the time with more accuracy than
you already have?
Mr. Anderson. Well, the strike lasted 6 months and 26 days, and
it is pretty hard to recall exactly the times that I did haul him. It
happened within 6 months.
Mr. Tam5nner. Wiat year was this ?
Mr. Anderson. This was lf)47, the first 6 months of 1947.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you certain that that strike occurred in 1947
instead of 1946?
Mr. Anderson. Well, it could have been in 1946. It was whenever
the ISH cents an hour we got acrosg the board.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you certain it occurred during the strike period ?
Mr. Anderson. Yes, sir. It could have been January 1, 1946, when
that strike took place. I think it was, if I recall right.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Did you have any occasion to be closely associated
with Paul Corbin after the occasions on which you took him in your
car to Janesville ?
Mr. Anderson. No. He was very cool to me after that time that
I set him back about those labor leaders.
Mr. Tavenner. That is all I have to ask, Mr. Chairman,
Mr. Doyle. Any questions ?
Mr. ScHERER. When was the last time that you had any contact
with Corbin, sir?
Mr. Anderson. Well, it's been at least — I don't think I have talked
to him since about '56 or '57. No. Wait. It's longer. Anyway, it
was at a Democratic convention. I can't just tell exactly when it was.
It was when a Democratic convention was held in Superior, Wis., I
think.
Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions.
Mr. Doyle. Is there any way you can fix that date ?
Mr. Scherer. It does not make any difference. I just want to know
if it was sometime in 1956. That is all right.
Mr. Anderson. It could have been in 1955. It was either '55 — I
guess it was in '55.
Mr. Bruce. Did I understand that the witness had volunteered the
information to this committee ?
Mr. Tavenner. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Bruce. I simply want to commend the witness for his willing-
ness.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1283
Mr. Anderson. Giacomo gave my name in. He told me he did.
He called me, and I volmiteered it to the Mihoaukee Journal and give
a sworn statement in my own home at Milwaukee which this gentle-
man right here has.
Mr. Tavenner. The statement is correct. We obtained the lead
from Mr. Giacomo, but I did not know whether this witness knew that.
Mr. Anderson. Yes ; he called and told me he did.
Mr. Doyle. Do you have all the leads that you were after with this
witness ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. Was that after Giacomo's testimony ?
Mr. Anderson. No ; that was before.
Mr, Scherer. Before he testified ?
Mr. Anderson. That's right.
Mr. Bruce. I would like to make this observation. I think as a
member of the organized labor movement you are to be commended
for your attitude during those times when there was some heavy in-
filtration in the area, for your firm position, and I wish your tribe
would increase a hundred times over.
Mr. Anderson. Well, I can say this: That when I went to Milwau-
kee, I was called to Pittsburgh once and asked how" the situation was
around there and every man that I recommended be let go, was let
go. That was Emil Costello and Ethel Isaacs, secretary, and they
sent John Eitfe in, and John Ritle lived over in Arlington when he
died, and John asked me the names that I sliould say let go, and I told
him just what I told you here, Emil Costello and Ethel Isaacs.
Mr. Bruce. Let me ask the Avitness this : In your work, did you ever
run into a man by the name of Russ Nixon ?
Mr. Anderson. What is the name?
Mr. Bruce. Russ Nixon.
Mr. Anderson. No; I didn't.
Mr. Bruce. Not up around Milwaukee?
Mr. Anderson. No.
Mr. Scherer. The witness volunteered the statement that he had
given the affidavit to the Milwaukee Journal. When was that, sir?
Have you got the date there of it ?
Mr. Anderson. It was only the last couple of weeks.
Mr. Tavenner. 24th day of August 1961.
Mr. Scherer. How^ was the contact made ?
Mr. Anderson. Through Giacomo.
Mr. Scherer. With the Milwaukee Journal?
Mr. Anderson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. And some reporter came and interviewed you?
Mr. Anderson. Him and a judge came out and they took the affi-
davit and typed it out right in my house and asked for a copy of, and
I gave him a sworn statement there. He asked me if I would testify
to it, and I told him anywhere in this country.
Mr. Doyle. Anything else, gentlemen, Mr. Scherer and Mr.
Schadeberg?
Mr. Schadeberg. I have no questions.
1284 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. DoYiiE. Mr. Sclierer, any other questions ?
Mr. SCHERER. No.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Bruce?
Mr. Bruce. No further questions.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you, Witness, for coming.
Mr. Anderson. You are quite welcome.
Mr. Doyt^e. We hope you recover your health fully and promptly.
Mr. Anderson. Thank you. Anything else I can do for you, you
know where to get me. If any of you come to Milwaukee any time and
want any leads, I will go with you.
Mr. Tavenner. Thank you very much.
Mr. Anderson. You are quite welcome.
Mr. Doyle. Anything else?
Mr. Ta-\T5nner. No, sir ; that is all.
(Whereupon, at 4:05 p.m. Wednesday, September 13, 1961, the sub-
committee was recessed, to recovene subject to the call of the Chair.)
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
MONDAY, NOVEMBER 27, 1961
United States House of Representatives,
subcommiti'ee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D.G .
EXECUTIVE SESSION ^
The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met,
pursuant to call, at 10 a.m., in Room 219, Old House Office Building,
Hon. Francis E. Walter (chairman) presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives Francis E. Walter, of
Pennsylvania ; William M. Tuck, of Virginia ; Gordon H. Scherer, of
Ohio ; August E. Johansen, of Michigan ; Donald E. Bruce, of Indiana.
Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., director; James
Walsh, co-counsel; Neil E. Wettennan, investigator.
(Order of appointment of subcommittee follows :)
November 27, 1961.
TO : Frank S. Tavenner, Jr.
Director
Committee on Un-American Activities
Pursuant to provisions of law and the rules of this Cmnmittee, I hereby ap-
point a subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities, consisting of
Representatives William M. Tuck and Gordon H. Scherer, as associate members,
and myself, Francis E. Walter, as Chairman, to conduct hearings in Washington,
D. C, beginning on Monday, November 27, at 10 a.m., on subjects under investi-
gation by the Committee and take such testimony on said day or succeeding days
as it may deem necessary.
Please make this action a matter of Committee record.
If any member indicates his inability to serve, please notify me.
Given under my hand this 27th day of November, 1961.
/s/ Francis B. Walter
Francis E. Walter,
Chairman.
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
Do you swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Kennedy. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH C. KENNEDY
The Chairman. Give your name, please, to the reporter.
Mr. Kennedy. Joseph C. Kennedy.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Kennedy, where do you live ?
Mr. Kennedy. Cedar Falls, Iowa.
1 Released by the committee and ordered to be printed.
1285
1286 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
^h\ Ta\-exner. Will you state briefly for the committee your
formal educational training and background ?
Mr. Kexxedy. Well, I graduated from grammar school, high
school, and several years of college, but I did not graduate from college.
Mr. Ta\t3nner. Wliere did you attend college ?
Mr. Kennedy. DePaul University in Chicago; Crane Junior Col-
lege.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ?
Mr. Kennedy. I am president of the Black Hawk Publishing Co.,
Inc., in Cedar Falls, Iowa.
Mr. Tavtnner. How long have you been engaged in that business?
Mr. Kennedy. About 13 years.
Mr. TA^^ENNER. That would take you back, then, to about 19-18 ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes; that is correct.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. What was your employment prior to 1948?
Mr. Kennedy. Well, I was briefly in partnership with Paul Corbin.
I lived in Rockf ord. 111., then.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the nature of your partnership business
in w^iich you and Mr. Corbin were engaged ?
Mr. Kennedy. AVe represented several veterans organizations,
publishing their national paper and several local veterans organiza-
tions' papers, publications, and yearbooks, et cetera.
Mr. TA^'ENNER. Over what period of time did that partnership last ?
Mr. Kennedy. ]\Iay I consult my notes here ?
Mr. Ta\t2nner. Surely. I think I should say to you, ]Mr. Kennedy,
that any witness appearing before this committee has the right to
have counsel with him if he desires to. Some do and some do not.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes; I understand that.
The question was. What was the period of association with Mr.
Corbin in tliis partnership ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. It was approximately January 1918 until April 11,
1949. The last date is specific because I have a written document of
the dissolution in mv file.
Mr. Ta\t5nner. What was the nature of your work prior to your
partnership with Mr. Corbin which began in January 1948?
Mr. Kennedy. I was in the wholesale produce business— eggs,
butter, and cheese — in Illinois and Wisconsin.
Mr. Tavenner. Over what period of time were you so employed?
Mr. Kennedy. Approximately Januaiy 1946 until November of
1947.
Mr. Ta\t5nner. Prior to 1946 ?
Mr. Kennedy. I was in the Army for about 21^ years.
Mr. Taa^nner. That would take you, then, back to about 1943?
Mr. Kennedy, Yes, sir. I went in the Army in 1943, yes, sir.
]\Ir. Tavenner. Prior to 1943, how were you employed and where?
Mr. Kennedy. I was the business manager of Local TOT of the
United Furniture Workers of America, Avhich was then a CIO affiliate.
;Mr. Tavenner. How long were you the business manager of ITnited
Furniture Workers of America ?
Mr. Kennedy. Well, first I was an international representative
servicing the union and then I was the business manager and the two
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1287
sort of merged together. I could not give you a specific breakdown,
but approximately from sometime late in 1939 until I went to the
Army in July of 1943.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the CIO Industrial Union
Council as a result of your position with the United Furniture
Workers of America ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, I was.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you a member of that organization ?
Mr. Kennedy. I believe the council was formed in 19-11, and I was
a member until I went into the service in World War II, in July of
1913.
Mr. Tavenner. jNIr. Kennedy, when did you first become acquainted
with iPaul Corbin ?
Mr. Kennedy. I met Paul Corbin in 1941 in Rockford, 111.
Mr. Tavenner. What were the circumstances under which you met
him ?
Mr. Kennedy. I was head of this large union. It was a full-time
job, of course. ]Mr. Corbin and some otlier man, a man by the name
of Lancaster, came there with the CIO Council with some advertising
scheme so that we could make some money for our new council, so
we employed them on a commission basis.
After they were through, Mr. Corbin just sort of hung around and
performed all sorts of volunteer jobs, legwork, helped pass out hand-
bills, and the usual type of Jimmy Higgins work which is associated
with trade union organizing. Ultimately, he would sort of get on the
payroll for a month or two when we had some special job. He just
sort of hung around there and made himself useful.
Mr. Tavenner. What was that date when you first became ac-
quainted with him ?
Mr. Kennedy. I think it was sometime in 1941. I am not j^ositive.
It was either 1941 or early 1942.
Mr. Tavenner. Could it have been as early as the summer of 1940?
Mr. Kennedy. It could have been, but I am not too sure of that
date.
Mr. Scherer. Did you know him by the name of Corbin at that
time or some other name?
Mr. Kennedy. He was using the name of Paul Corbin, but I knew
he had originally the name "Kobrinsky."
Mr. Tavenner. He told you that?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he tell you anything of his activities in Canada
before coming to this country ?
Mr. Kennedy. He told me he had been a member of the Young
Communist League at the University of Manitoba in Winnipeg and he
had some relatives that were rather active in the leftwing movement
around Winnipeg.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he say "Young Commimist League'' or "left-
wing movement" ?
Mr. Kennedy. He stated the Young Communist League.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he mention what relatives?
Mr. Kennedy. He mentioned an uncle, but I don't know if it was
maternal or paternal.
1288 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. TA\T:NisrER. Do jou know whether the uncle's name was Corbin,
or whether it was Pavlov ?
Mr. Kennedy. I really don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he tell you how long he had been engaged in
Communist Party activities in the Young Communist League?
Mr. Kennedy. No, he didn't.
Mr. Ta\tnner. Did he tell you anything about the nature of his
activities while affiliated with that group?
Mr. Kennedy. No. As he explained it to me, it was while he was
a student at the University of Manitoba and that is all I know
about it.
Mr. Taa^nner. At this time in 1940 or 1941 when you first met him,
was he a citizen of the United States ?
Mr. Kennedy. No ; he was not.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he married at that time ?
Mr. Kennedy. He was married to his first wife, but he had deserted
her and their children. He was wanted for desertion.
Mr. Tavenner. He was wanted for desertion?
Mr. Kennedy. He was picked up in Rockford by the police for
desertion.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall when that occurred? Let me ask
you if that was the only time that you knew of when he was put under
arrest by Rockford authorities.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, that is the only time I know of.
Mr. Sciierer. Rockford, 111.?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. The committee, in the course of its investigation,,
has learned that he was placed under arrest on August 22, 1941, by
Rockford authorities at the request of the police of New York City
who then directed his release from custody, which was done.
Does that help to refresh your recollection as to the year in whicli
you first knew Paul Corbin, because the date of arrest that I referred
lo was August 22, 1941.
Mr. Kennedy. I met him in 1941 because it was just several months
before that I met him.
Mr. Tavenner. What was his first wife's name ?
Mr. Kennedy. I really don't know. I heard it, but I don't remem-
ber.
Mr. Tavenner. Did she live at any time with her husband in Rock-
ford, to your knowledge ?
Mr. Kennedy. To my knowledge, slie did not.
Mr. Tavenner. From 1941 until the time you went into the service,,
covering a period of 2 to 3 years, what was Paul Corbin's association
with you during that entire period, the 2 to 3 years ?
Mr. Kennedy. Well, he just sort of hung around me, you might
say, and occasionally I would have some work like putting on an
assistant for a few weeks or a few months, so if lie was available we
would use him. I got him a job with the Retail. Wholesale, and De-
partment Store Union sometime, I believe, in 1942, and he handled
that job for a number of months. Then he went to work for Mr,
Bridge's Longshoremen's union.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall when he went to work for the Long-
shoremen's Union ?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1289
Mr. Kenxedy. He ^Yent to work for the ILWU in 1942.
Mr. Tavenner. Where was he located at that time 'i
Mr. Kennedy. He went to work in Chicago under Lou Goldblatt
who was the international vice president of the IL"VVTJ, and then he
was transferred to Freeport, 111., Avhich is west of Rockford, and then
he organized the W. T. Kawleigh plant there.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Mr. Corbm live in your home at any time dur-
ing the period when you first became ac({uainted with him and the
time you went into the service ?
Mr. Kennedy. He roomed with us, I would say, for about several
months.
JSIr. Tavenner. When was tliat ?
Mr. Kennedy. Late 1941, 1 believe it would be.
Mr. Tavenner. In fact, Mr. Corbin Avas living with you at the time
he was arrested ?
Mr. Kennedy. No, sir; he was not. He moved in with me shortly
thereafter.
Mr. Ta'S'enner. It is noted from the records of the arrest that he
gave his address as 1622 South Fifth Street, Rockford, 111. That was
your address?
Mr. Kennedy. That was my address, but that was not a true state-
ment.
Mr. Tavenner. What were the circumstances under which Paul
Corbin told you of his activities in Canada in the Young Communist
League ?
Mr. Kennedy. It was shortly after he was arrested— this incident
we have been discussing here — and he heard that I was involved in
some way with the leftwing union, this leftwing union and the Com-
munist Party, and he was attempting to probably ingratiate himself
with me. This is just supposition.
May I just add something voluntarily ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. The reason Mr. Corbin said he lived with me was
we had considerable political influence, the Furniture Workers Union,
in this town. The president of the union was chairman of the board
of the police and fire commissioners of Rockford, 111.
Mr. Tavenner. And he had been president of your union ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. And he had been a party member at one
time.
Mr. Scherer. Do you mean Communist Party member?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. What was his name ?
Mr. Kennedy. Ray Rollins.
Mr. Tavenner. After his arrest, Corbin told j'ou about his activities
in Canada?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. You mentioned his knowledge of your activity in
certain groups, including the Communist Party.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at
that time?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes ; I was.
1290 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a functionary in the Communist Party
at that time ? That is, did you hold any oiRce ?
Mr. Kexnedy. Well, I didn't hold any office that I can remember.
I was not a chairman or secretary or anything like that. I don't
think I was.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you become a member of the Communist
Party ?
Mr. Kennedy. In late fall of 1937.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remain a member or are you a
member now ?
Mr. Kennedy. I am not a member now ; no. I was more or less
a member until just before I went into the service. I might explain
that they were going to expel me and would not allow me to attend
meetings when this Stalin-Hitler thing came along, so I was not an
active member, really, for several years prior to going into the serv-
ice. It is kind of hard to explain. You see, I held a key position in
the trade union movement so they had to work with me. At the same
lime, they would not let me come to a party meeting for a period there
and so on, so I don't know whether I was a member or not. If I
could not go to closed meetings, I suppose I was not.
Mr. Bruce. Did you pay dues ?
Mr. Kennedy. I don't really know whether I did or not. Knowing
how hard up they were for some money, they probably dunned me for
some money but they did bar me from meetings.
Mr. JoHANSEN. You mean you don't recall ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir. It has been a long time ago.
Mr. ScHERER. But you were definitely out when you went into the
service — in what year ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir ; in 1943.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you affiliate with the Communist Party after
your return ?
Mr. Kennedy. I came back from the service and my job had disap-
peared while I was in the Army. I had been overseas almost 2 years
and I didn't know what was going on, so my job was gone. I went
into Chicago to the various trade unions that had all wanted my serv-
ices very badly prior to the war and the left wing unions had no job
for me and, oi coui-se, the so-called rightwing unions had no job for
me either. I went up to party headquarters on Wells Street in Chi-
cago and tried to find out what it was all about. I was apparently
being blackmailed by the party and by the other groups.
Mr. Bruce. Do you mean "blackmailed" or "blacklisted" ?
Mr. Kennedy. I beg your pardon, blacklisted. So they made our
a card and brought it out to me, but I think I attended one or two
meetings after the war just to find out — another thing, I was very
curious about this whole question of Browderism and the new busi-
ness when Browder was kicked out and Foster took over and so on,
but I was never really a party member after the war in any sense
other than I went to find out what it was all about on this job situation.
Mr. Bruce. Did you sign the card they gave you ?
Mr. Kennedy. I really don't remember whether I did or not. I
remember them giving me a card.
Mr. Brtve. But you did go to a meeting or two afterward, so that
would indicate that you signed a card.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1291
Mr. Kenjs^edy. These meetings were at a man's house, an informal
thing and I am not sure whether all of the people there were mem-
bers or not. In Rockford, the thing is very informal. I have only
been to one meeting or so that was not open. Maybe in the big cities
they did things differently, but out in the sticks they operated on a
rather loose basis.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Did you confer with Fred Blair after you returned
from the service ?
Mr. Kexnedy. No, sir. He was in Wisconsin and this was in Chi-
cago.
Mr. Tavenner. Who solicited your membership into the party or
who brought you into the party ?
Mr. Kennedy. George Stewart.
Mr. Ta\'enner. How do you spell his name ?
Mr. Kennedy. S-t-e-w-a-r-t.
Mr. Tavenner. His name was also Smerkin ?
Mr. KJENNEDY. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ta\tsnner. How do you spell that ?
Mr. Kennedy. S-m-e-r-k-i-n.
Mr. Tavenner. What position did he hold in the union of which
you were business manager ?
Mr. Kennedy. He was my predecessor, and I was his assistant for
a while before he left.
Mr. Tai^enner. Did Stewart give Corbin any employment in the
union ?
Mr. IVENNEDY. No, sir.
Mr. Ta\'enner. That was all done by you ?
Mr. Kennedy. He had left before Corbin arrived on the scene.
He had left for New York.
Mr. Tavenner. What work, if any, did Paul Corbin do for the
Communist Party during the period from 1940 or 1941, when you
first knew him, until you went into the service in 1943?
Mr. Kennedy. As far as I knew, he didn't do anything for the
Communist Party.
Mr. Ta\T!:nner. Do you know whether he sold the Daily Worker?
Mr. Kennedy. He sold some subscriptions to the Daily Worker.
I can give you a specific instance.
Mr. Tavenner. Go ahead.
Mr. Kennedy. He sold a subscription one time while I was present
with a well-known attorney in Rockford. I can't think of his name.
Can I come back to that question later ? The name will come to me.
Mr. TA^^ENNER. Very well.
Did he engage in any fund-raising activities for Communist Party
causes ?
Mr. IvENNEDY. Not that I know of.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he show any interest in the Communist Party
during the period he lived with you and while you knew him, up until
you went into the service?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes; he seemed greatly interested.
Mr. Tavenner. What do you mean by that ?
Mr. Kennedy. Well, he read the Daily Worker and was always
associating with people who are thought to be, or known to be, mem-
bers of the Communist Party in the area.
87845—62 5
1292 TESTEMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Ta\texner. "Will you give us the names of those people ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. Emil Costello, then of the United Steelwork-
ers Union, and Carl Thorman of the United Furniture Workers
Union, and Einar Sell of the Furniture "Workers Union, and Lou
Goldblatt of the ILWU.
Mr. Ta\^nner. That is the same person you referred to a while ago
as being the person who employed him in Chicago?
Mr. IvENNEDY. Yes, and Robertson of the ILWU.
]SIr. ScHERER. Did you know^ Mr. Goldblatt as a member of the
Communist Party ?
]Mr. IvENNEDY. No, I didn't know^ him as a member of the Com-
munist Party.
My. Tavenner. You mentioned a person by the name of Robertson.
What Robertson?
Mr. Kennedy. Robertson, a vice president of the IL"\\TJ, who was
in Rockford and Freeport.
Mr. Scherer. All these men you have just named to us, do I under-
stand you to say that they were generally considered to be membei's
of the Communist Party?
Mr. Kennedy. We knew them to be members of the Communist
Party. They were known to us to be members of the Communist
Party, by common repute in labor circles, leftwing circles and Com-
munist circles, but I had never been to any meeting with them.
Mr. Tavenner. Could the Robertson you referred to be J. R. Rob-
ertson ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, that is who it is.
Mr. Ta\^ner. Do you recall whether the Robertson as vice presi-
dent of the ILWU was the same person who was a codefendant in the
Harr}^ Bridges perjuiy and conspiracy trial ?
Mr. KJENNEDY. I don't know enough about that trial to answer
that question. I assume it is the same one, but I have never seen
the transcript of the trial. I am sure it is the same one — you know.
Mr. Tavenner. During the period we have been discussing, up
until you went into the service, was any reference made by Paul
Corbin to membership in the Communist Party of the United States?
Mr. Kennedy. I personally blocked his membership in Rockford.
Mr. Scherer. Would you repeat that ?
Mr. Kennedy. I personally blocked his becoming a member of any
Rockford Communist Party group by talking to the key people there,
mistrusting the man quite a bit.
Mr. Scherer. You distrusted him ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. He is an emotionally unstable person, and I
did not want any involvement with him at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. You went into partnership with him at a later
date?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. I should think that that is a closer relationsliip
than just joint membership in the Communist Party.
Mr. Kennedy. May I explain how I went into partnership with
him, very briefly ?
Mr. Scherer, Before we leave this subject, when you say ''blocked
his membership," did he make application for membership in the
local group of the Communist Party ?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1293
Mr. Kennedy. I believe he did. I do not actually know. I talked
to Thorman and some of these people and said that this man is an
emotionally unstable person and I would advise you not to become
deeply involved with him.
Mr. Bruce. Then Goldblatt later hired him ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. On your recommendation ?
Mr. Kennedy. Maybe I wanted to get him out of town and out of
my hair.
Mr. Bruce. Is that the reason ?
Mr. Ivennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Tell us more in detail about Corbin's desire to get
into the Communist Party or what he did to get into the Communist
Party.
Mr. Kennedy. About this time, Emil Costello, from the Steel-
workers Union, appeared on the scene in Rockford. He was not
suspect by the leadership like I was. In other words, he had some
direct pipelines to some people in the higher echelons of the Com-
mmiist Party, apparently, and I suspect that he recruited Corbin into
the party. Suddenly Corbin appears on the ILWU payroll and
starts wheeling and dealing, you loiow, with known party members,
and he is getting jobs from them, and so forth and so on.
Then he starts talking to me about party policy and all this busi-
ness. A good example of his following the party line, we liad the
State CIO convention in Springfield, 111., and do you remember the
America First, which I believe you could say was an isolationist
movement, that of opposing our entry into world war or at least
something roughly like that ?
Corbin stood up and made a speech at the CIO convention attack-
ing this America First bitterly; and it was strictly party policy he
was following because, just a few weeks before, the party was all
for tlie America Firsters and for keeping out of the so-called impe-
rialist war, and then Hitler attacked the Soviet Union and then,^ all
of a sudden, all of the party people were going in the other direction.
Mr. Tavenner. That was June 22, 1941 ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir. This convention was held in July of that
year.
Mr. Bruce. Corbin had been speaking the other way prior to that ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir ; I did not make the switch because I helped
to organize the Committee To Aid America by Aiding the Allies
wliich was the opposite of party policy, and I was criticized for it.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Corbin make any overtures to you for your as-
sistance in getting him into the Communist Party ?
Mr. Kennedy. He did ; yes, sir.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Tell us about that.
Mr. Kennedy. He kept hanging around and hinting and saying,
well, you know, indicating that he was already communicating with
the higher level people, and the implication was that, you know, I
should take him to the meetings, and so forth and so on. I just sim-
ply ignored his advances and had nothing to do with him on this
question.
1294 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. SciiERER. You were convinced that he was a member of the
Communist Party and he merely wanted to have membership in the
local group since he had come to Iowa ?
Mr. Kennedy. Not Iowa.
It is kind of hard to explain, sir, but we are dealing with a rather
pathological case here. One day he was a Communist and the next
day he was something else.
Mr. ScTiERER. Do you mean one day he was a Communist by what he
said to you ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir. In "Wisconsin in later years, one month
he was working for Senator McCarthy and the next month he was
working for somebody at the opposite pole of the political spectrum,
Mr. Bruce. Do you mean on the payroll ?
Mr. Kennedy. He was raising funds for him, I don't know spe-
cifically, but I was informed he embraced Senator McCarthy at this
xA.merican Legion State convention and so on, so I don't know what
to tJiink about tlie man so far as his stability is concerned,
Mr. Sciierer. "When he was talking to you about the possibility^ of
getting into the local Communist group in Rockford, 111., that Avas
after he had told you that he had been a member of the Young Com-
munist League ?
Mr. KJENNEDY. Yes, sir.
Mr. JoHANSEN. Was his telling you that he had been a member of
the Young Communist League a part of the buildup with you as sort of
a credential to justify your supporting his effort to get into the party
iin Rockford ?
Mr. Kennedy. I believe it was ; yes, sir.
Mr. Sciierer. There was no doubt in your mind that he had been a
member of the Communist Party at the time he was trying to get into
the membership of the local group, was there ?
Mr. Kennedy. I would just restate that, sir, that there was no doubt
m my mind that he had been a member of the Young Communist
League, but I did not know whether he had ever been a member of the
party.
Mr. Bruce. But he did tell you, if I recall your statement, that he
was already in contact with the higher-ups and, in other words, he
couldn't understand, then, why you would not sponsor him in the local
party ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. You stated that you remonstrated to various leaders
of the Communist Party in your area against Corbin being permitted
to come into the Rockford group of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. And you mentioned Costello as one of those ?
Mr. Kennedy, Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlio were the others ?
Mr. Kennedy. Costello, nominally, was the organizer for the United
Steelworkers Union, but actually, of course, he was apparently a high
official in the party or had very strong connections, and I remonstrated
with him about pushing this Corbin into too close a relationship with
us. In fact, Corbin started to interfere with trade union policy and
related things where the two were blending together somewhat. That
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1295
is the reason I had encouraged Costello to get him the job with Bridges
and get him out of town.
Mr. ScHERER. Was this before you went into the Army?
Mr. I^NNEDY. Yes, sir. Everything was before I went into the
Army.
Mr. Tavenner. Your going into partnership with Corbin was after
your return from the service ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. That was after Corbin's return and your return from
the Army ?
Mr. Kennedy. He was in the Marine Corps, and I was in the Army.
Mr. Bruce. Did the two of you maintain contact during that period ?
Mr. Kennedy. No, I think maybe one letter or two. He was in the
Pacific and I was in Europe.
I w^ent in the wholesale butter, egg, and cheese business after I
got out of the service. I was Avith a cooperative for a while and then
I went into business for myself. I was doing quite well when I be-
came ill with gallbladder trouble, and by the time I came out of the
hospital the market had gone down and the butter, egg, and cheese
market had some drops.
"Wliile I was in the hospital, I was visited by Paul Corbin. Paul
Corbin was, I believe, the State commander of the Wisconsin Marine
Corps League. He said, "Joe, I have a deal for you. Why don't you
go to work for the State Marine Corps League? We are going to
have a convention, cover the State, put out a program yearbook which
is to be held in Janesville, Wis."
I was out of business. I had been in the hospital, and when I came
out I had no job. I did not want to go back to the trade union move-
ment, so I took this job from Corbin, but the strange thing that hap-
pened, he was with the sponsoring organization and he was the State
commander.
After I had been in business for about 6 weeks, suddenly he quit the
State CIO that he was working for, the Wisconsin Industrial Union
Council, and appeared no longer on the scene but going into partner-
ship with me. I was put in the difficult position, he was both the
sponsoring organization and also wormed his way into a partnership.
I thought, well, what have I got to lose? Here was a very sharp,
shifty individual who could teach me some practical facts about run-
ning a business. We got along swell for 3 or 4 months and then
things — we were fighting quite a bit.
Mr. Scherer. What type of business was that?
Mr. Kennedy. He was the commander for the State Marine Corps
League and he was chairman of the convention and he gave me the
job of doing the yearbook.
Mr. Scherer. This was a limited, temporary partnership until the
convention was over?
Mr. Ivennedy. It Avas not a partnership at all. I was working. He
was the head of the organization. He was the State commander.
Once I took the deal and started working on it, he suddenly appeared
on the scene and said, "I am going to become your partner."
Mr. Bruce. You took this as a separate operation from the Marine
Corps League ?
Mr. I^NNEDY. Yes, sir.
1296 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. ScHERER. And it was a temporary thing until the convention
was over?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. JoHANSEN. This was soliciting and selling advertising?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Bruce. You split this on a percentage basis ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Bruce. Your operation was completely separate from the Ma-
rine Corps League ?
Mr. IvENNEDY. Yes, sir. "We were just a business operation.
Mr. Bruce. As I understand it, Corbin literally muscled his way
into your operation.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. JoHANSEN. In other words, he had become a participant in that
which otherwise would have totally gone to you ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Bruce. Here was the situation of the commander of the Ma-
rine Corps League in a venture for personal profit at the expense of
the Marine Corps League ?
Mr. Kennedy. I would not really say at the expense of — at my
expense. He was working both sides of the street.
Mr. JoHANSEN. It was at your expense, if it was at the expense of
anyone because it reduced your proportion of the payments?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. You and Corbin also entered into a contract with
the Navy Club of the U.S.A. ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. This was on the 16th day of February 1949. It
was for the purpose of soliciting advertising and selling, was it not ?
Mr. Kennedy. Would you check that date again, sir ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. The 16th day of February 1949.
Mr. Kennedy. I have here the contract signed with both Mr.
Corbin's signature and mine and by the national commander of the
Navy Club of the United States, Dr. K. J. Mashek, a dentist in Mil-
waukee, and that is dated the 1st day of July A.D. 1948. This might
have been the local Rockford post. That is probably Avhat it was.
Mr. Taat:nner. It was a corporation organized and existing pur-
suant to a charter granted by the United States of America. Let me
hand it to you and see if you can further identify it.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Would you like to see this document, sir ?
Mr. Tav-enner. Yes, sir.
(Document handed to counsel.)
Mr. Kennedy. I can explain this now, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Just explain to the committee what your association
was with Corbin in connection with the advertising work done for the
Navy Club of the U.S.A.
Mr. Kennedy'. Well, the Navy Club of the IT.S.A., of course, is a
legitimate veterans organization and just accidentally was founded
in Rockford, 111., by some people who were veterans, I believe, in World
War I. With World War II, it flourished and grew rather large,
and a man by the name of Keegan, a respected lawyer in Rockford,
111., was our counsel.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1297
Incidentally, my brother-in-law was one of the founders of this
thing, although he has no connection with any leftwing activity. So
I got this contract to represent them nationally, a national newspaper
they had. We covered parts of the United States, selling advertising
and so on.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien you say "we," whom do you means?
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Corbin and I. He rode along on my coattails.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Over what period of time did that relationship
continue ?
Mr. Kennedy. The dissolution — I mentioned the date earlier. Here
it is in his handwriting. The dissolution of our partnership took
place April 11, 1949, and he apparently kept on with the Navy Club
after I left, it.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. I request that this document be marked "Kennedy
Exhibit No. 1.''
The Chairman. So ordered.
(Document marked "Kennedy Exhibit No. 1" and retained in com-
mittee files.)
Mr. Ta\tenner. It began when ?
Mr. Kennedy. Do vou mean our partnership or the contract with
the Navy Club?
Mr. Ta^t:nner. Your partnership with Corbin in connection with
advertising matters.
Mr. Kennedy. That would be about February of 1948 — yes, ap-
proximately February 1948.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you not have some association with Corbin in
the matter of solicitation of funds prior to 1943, prior to your going
into the Army ?
Mr. Kennedy. I was with the union, but I was not involved in any
working with him on anything.
Mr. Tavenner. The minutes of the Eockford Industrial Union
Council of February 10, 1943, reflect that a question was raised as to
whether authority had been given any person to sell advertising mate-
rial in any form or place in the name of the Rockford Industrial Union
Council unless he liad credentials from the council. Also, that a man
by the name of Harry Gantt and Corbin were asked whether they had
gotten authority to sell this advertisement for the Rockford Industrial
Union Council.
Do you recall that ?
Mr. Kennedy. I recall Mr. Gantt's coming to town, but I had noth-
ing to do with the sale of anything. I was a union official at this time.
Ml'. Tavenner. Did you have any interest in this matter that I have
called to your attention.
Mr. Kennedy. No financial interest; no, sir.
Mr. Ta\'enner. What do you know about this man Harry Gantt?
Wliat business did he have, if any, in addition to the sale of advertis-
ing material ?
Mr. Kennedy. I met Mr. Gantt in Rockford, and he was sent there
by — I mean he was recommended to us, I should say, by Mr. Meyer
Adelman, who was the district director of the Steelworkers Union in
Milwaukee and northern Illinois outside of Chicago.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Was this man. Harry Gantt, known to you to be
a member of the Communist Party ?
1298 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Kennedy. No, sir; just worked for the Wisconsm CIO News
soliciting from business firms.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell tlie committee, please, what your
association with Corbin was after your return from the Army and
after his return from the Marine Coi*ps?
]Mr. Kennedy. I returned from the Army on the 26th of October
1945, and I was home a month or two before Corbm was returned
from the Marine Corps. I was working for a cooperative store in
Rockford, 111., consumer cooperative store, for a few months, and I
was trying to figure some way to get back into the trade union move-
ment as an organizer.
Corbin appeared on the scene with his wife
Mr. Tavenner. Was this his first wife or second wife ?
Mr. Kennedy. Second wife, Mrs. Gertrude Cox Corbin. We just
had a social visit and he wanted me to start a labor agency represent-
ing management. I had been offered, by the way, the presidency of
the Furniture Manufacturers Associa(:ion when I was with the union,
tliat is Rockford, which was then a great furniture-producing center.
He knew this, of course, and he wanted to use my connections to get
into a labor-management agency.
He came down to see me three or four times about this. Of course,
if I was going to go into a labor-management agency, I would not have
gone in with him.
Mr. ScHERER. Were jom in Rockford then ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. He came down from where ?
Mr. Kennedy. From Janesville.
Mr. Tavenner. He and his wife were living in Janesville at that
time ?
Mr. Kennedy, Yes, sir. Then I went into the wholesale produce
business and maybe four or five times he stopped in to see me. He
always had some sort of a proposition. He wanted to go in business
with me or he wanted to get involved in labor some way with me.
In fact, this man has sort of a rather odd attachment to me.
I have a letter some place in my files showing this, and rather de-
pendent upon me. He was always trying to propose that we go into
some business of some kind, but we had nothing to do with one another
except this deal I told you about, the Marine Corps League and the
Navy deal.
Mr. Tavenner. Janesville is in Wisconsin ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Where was Costello at this time, Emil Costello ?
Mr. Kennedy. Postwar, Emil was still with the Steelworkers and
he was fired from the Steelworkers some time in, I believe, 1948, at
the order of Philip Murray, the former head of the Steelworkers
Union.
Mr. Scherer. Was he fired because of his Communist activity?
Mr. Kennedy. I am sure he was.
Mr. Tavenner. Was his scene of activity in Wisconsin — Costello's?
Mr. Kennedy. The district of the Steelworkers with whom Mr.
Costello was connected was Milwaukee and northern Illinois outside
of Chicago, and it went 'way down to Kewaunee and that section.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1299
Mr. TAMiNNER. After getting out of the armed services was Corbin
employed in Wisconsin, in any way, in any union, or any ca,pacity in
which "^Costello would have had close association with Corbin ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, in two particulars. No. 1, he was given a job
to represent the Wisconshi CIO News, which was a special Wisconsin
edition of the national CIO News — carrying an advertising program
in it to finance it and so on, and, of course, the State of Wisconsin
CIO in those days was dominated by Meyer Adelman and Emil
Costello, and was known to be lef twing dominated, which means prac-
tically the same thing.
Costello got Mr. Corbin a job as their representative. Then, Mr.
Corbin was given a job, I am sure by Costello, to be the representa-
tive of the Public Workers Union, and he represented the iVIilwaukee
City Workers Union, that is, the garbage and disposal workers and
I don't know what else.
He was doing that prior to his quitting and going to work with
me in this partnership.
Mr. TA^^:xNER. During the period of this close relationship of you
with Corbin, for more than a year in 1948 and 1949, did Corbin dis-
cuss with you his status as a citizen ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. He told me he had become a citizen while he
was in the Marine Corps and the fact that he had gotten a divorce
while in the Marine Corps and married this Gertrude Cox Corbin.
Mr. Tavenner. Had you known his wife before their marriage?
Mr. Kennedy. The second wife ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. She was secretary of a local union I organ-
ized in Janesville at the Hough Manufacturing Co. and Corbin rode
along with me that night when I went to give them their charter and
that is where he met her.
Mr. TA^'ENNER. That was before he went into the armed services?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tuck. You introduced him to the present Mrs. Corbin?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. Taatnner. Was she known to you to be a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Kennedy. He told me she became one in California while he
was in the Marine Corps stationed at San Diego; that she became a
member of the party on the West Coast at that time.
Mr. ScHERER. Was that prior to the time that you introduced him ?
Mr. Kennedy. No; afterward.
Mr. ScHERER. Prior to his marriage ?
Mr. Kennedy. Prior to his marriage, but after he met her.
Mr. Tavenner. You did not get back from the armed services until
1945 ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
INIr. Tavenner. Mv recollection is that he married his second wife
in 1944.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ta\-enner. That was while he was still in the Marine Corps?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. That is what the witness said.
1300 TESTEVIONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Tavenner. When was it that Corbin told you that his wife
had joined the Communist Party in San Diego ?
Mr. I\JENNEDY. I would like to amend that testimony to state that
prior to Corbin's going into the Marine Corps, the future Mrs. Cor-
bin moved to Chicago and Mr. Corbin moved to Chicago to go to
work under Mr. Robertson of the IL^^HJ in Chicago. I believe she
joined the party in Chicago prior to going to the West Coast. She
wrote letters to my wife, and so on, and he wrote one or two letters to
me and they were talking about some of their activities, and so forth.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have any letter from either Mr. or IVIrs.
Corbin indicating their activities in the Communist Party or connec-
tion with it ?
Mr. Kennedy. I am sure I don't have because we moved a couple of
times since then, and I did not save them.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the nature of the letters ?
Mr. Kennedy. Just personal letters, and some of the activities she
was carrying on.
I might add for the record, while she was in California, she had
something to do with penetrating the Telephone Workers Union and
trying to get the Telephone Workers Union to leave its independent
status and become affiliated with the CIO Communications Workers
of America,^ which was leftwing dominated.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Do you know the address of Paul Corbin and his
wife in San Diego ?
Mr. Kennedy, No, I do not.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you find out from any notations or records of
your own what their address was ?
Mr. Kennedy. I could look, sir, but I doubt it very much,
Mr. Tavenner. Will you look, please ?
Mr. Kennedy. I will.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have any further discussion after getting
out of the service with Paul Corbin regarding Communist Party mem-
bership by him ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. Every time I would see him he would be
talking about how he was wheeling and dealing and he was always
talking about Fred Bassett Blair, who I believe was State chairman
of the Communist Party of Wisconsin, and Harold Christoffel who I
am sure is well known to this committee, and Costello, and a number
of other people whose names I do not remember.
I was busy in the eg^:^ business and I did not pay too much attention
to it. I was working about 12 hours a day then.
Mr. ScHERER. I believe you said he told you how he was always
wheeling and dealing with these known Communists.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Could you just tell us the nature of his wheeling and
dealing as he related it to you ?
Mr. Kennedy. I can't really remember too much. He specifically
used to tell about going out with this Fred Bassett Blair, with whom
he had some sort of an affinity, and sit around having a scotch or a beer
and talking about all sorts of things about the party; but, as I say,
■■ Actually the American Communications Association.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNESTG PAUL CORBIN 1301
I was not active, in the party then and I really didn't pay much atten-
tion, you know, about the specific things that he discussed with ]Mr.
Blair.
Mr. ScHHEiER. But he told you of Communist discussions with known
Communists ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir, he did.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he specifically state whether or not he was at
that time a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, he did.
Mr. Tavenner. Tell us in more detail about that.
Mr. Kennedy. On several occasions when he would drop in to see
me, he told me about he and Fred Bassett Blair associating together
and being at meetings and he told me about being at some party meet-
ing and getting into a fist fight and slugging one of his fellow com-
rades and a lot of things like this. I did not pay too much attention to
it in detail.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he at any time make any statement to you re-
garding any particular phases of Communist Part}^ work in which
he was engaged ?
Mr. Kennedy. He was interested in work in the trade union field
and following the party line of the then dominant group in the Wis-
consin State CIO.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what his activity was at this time in
veterans' organizations?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. He became quite active in the Marine Corps
League and rapidly rose to become the State commander and I believe
he became national commander later on.
I might mention in tliis connection why I broke up mj partnership
with him, if I could just put that in here. It relates to this veterans'
question. You see, a rather strange thing happened. We were always
talking about Communists infiltrating labor unions and so on, but
veterans' organizations can be infiltrated effectively and rather dan-
gerously. The thing that frightened me when I tried to disassociate
myself from the past was Corbin and I had been with this Marine
Corps League and whenever we went to a town, we would usually
have a letter to tlie captain or a commander — we would usually meet
Commander So-and-So, and what rather worried me, I was trying to
avoid being put in an embarrassing position that could embarrass
me in the future. They would take us out and show us the radar
training program and start giving us the grand tour about their
Naval Reserve training and stuff like that and Corbin was eating
this stuff up.
I got a little bit frightened with this setup because I didn't want to
know anything about the naval radar setup or the Naval Reserve
training program or anything like that. That was one of the reasons —
I gave him the entire Navy Club contract and walked off to get rid
of him.
The other thing was under the income tax law, you have to file a
partnei-ship return. My accountant told me I should file a partner-
ship return and he demanded that I not file one. I went ahead and
filed the partnership return and we fought over that. I filed the
partnership return and he refused to.
1302 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. TA^^:NNER. Did you at any time have occasion to discuss Com-
munist Party membership with Gertrude Corbin, the second wife of
Paul Corbin?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, I believe when they came out from Chicago or
before we went into Chicajro, before I went in the service, rather, she
discussed her party activities in Chicajjo and then in later years about
her activity in San Die^o area and so on. She worked for the Rheem
Manufacturing Co. while she was in Chicago and I believe on the
West Coast for a Rheem subsidiary there.
ISIr. Tavenner. Do vou know the name of that subsidiary on tlie
West Coast ?
Mr. Kennedy. It was just a branch of the Rheem Co. — water heaters
and so on.
]Mr. Ta^t;nner. Was Communist Party literature or the Daily
Worker ever supplied you by either Paul Corbin or his wife?
IVIr. Kennedy. Yes. Corbin brought me copies of the Dally Worker.
Mr. Johansen. Was this after his war service or before, or both?
Mr. Kennedy. After his war service.
Mr. ScHERER. What rank did you say lie held with the Marine
Corps?
Mr. Kennedy. I believe he was a sergeant.
Mr. Scherer. In the Marine Corps League ?
Mr. Kennedy. He was the State commander and I believe later,
national commander.
Mr. Taa-enner. Were you acquainted with a person by the name of
Perry E. Wilgus ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Ta^^nner. Do you know where Perry Wilgus is now?
Mr. Kennedy. No, I don't.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere did he reside the last time you knew of him ?
Mr. Kennedy. Freeport, 111.
Mr. Ta-\^nner. "N^Hiat was the association between Wilgus and Cor-
bin, if you know?
Mr, Kennedy. Wilgus represented himself as a member of the Com-
munist Party and came to Rockford to see me several times about
doing something about Corbin.
You see, the war was now on and the Communist Party line was to
win the war and not have strikes, and so forth, for tlie interests of the
Soviet Union, and so forth. Corbin was being rather reckless in his
activities in Freeport, causing a lot of trouble and the possibility of
sitdowns, etc., not following their political line as precisely as Mr.
Wilgus wanted it followed. So Wilgus came and talked to me abont
it. He had no control over Corbin whatsoever. Wilgus at this time
was an official of the Micro Switch Division, a subsidiary of Minne-
apolis-Honeywell.
Mr. Bruce. An official of the company ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. And a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Kennedy. He represented himself to me as a member of the
Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. He was in charge of manpower for the Micro Switch
Division, was he not ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1303
Mr. Tavenner. Can you fix the approximate time when this
occurred '?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir ; it occurred in early 1943.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have any connection with Wilgus after
that time ?
Mr. Kennedy. No, sir; I have not seen him since I went to the
service.
Mr. Tamsnner. You have stated that Corbin, after your return from
the service, told you several times that he was a member of the Com-
munist Party. Did he ever indicate to you where he had joined
the Communist Party; that is, whether in Milwaukee, Chicago, or
where ?
Mr. Kennedy. In the postwar period his activities all centered
around the Communist Party in Milwaukee. It is possible that he
might have belonged in Chicago, but if he did, he was not an open
member, because he was not a citizen and you couldn't become a reg-
ular member unless you were a citizen at this time.
Mr. JoHANSEN. Is this Wilgus ?
Mr. Kennedy. No, Corbin.
Mr. Tavenner. You indicated that his wife probably joined the
Communist Party in Chicago which would fix the date as being prior
to Corbin's entry into the armed services.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you at any time receive any information indi-
cating that the second wife of Paul Corbin had transferred her Com-
munist Party membership from Chicago to San Diego ?
Mr. Kennedy. I understand she did, sir, but I have no evidence
of it. I understand that she became a member of the party in Chicago
before he went to service in World War II ; that he did not become a
member then because he was not a citizen. This is what they told
me. I don't know whether it was true or not.
Mr. Tavenner. Whom do you mean by "they" ?
Mr. I^JENNEDY. Paul and Gertrude Corbin. Then, when they went
to the West Coast, she was active and he became a citizen during the
service and then went back to Wisconsin and then became a member
of the party. That is the way the picture has been presented to me
by the Corbins.
Mr. JoHANSEN. Would that be Janesville ?
Mr. Tuck. I would not call that hearsay.
Mr. JoHANSEN. Was this in Janesville that he became a member ?
Mr. Kennedy. No; this was in Milwaukee. They had an apart-
ment in Milwaukee.
Mr. Scherer. That was how long after he had become a citizen as
a result of his services in the Marine Corps ?
Mr. Kennedy. I would say almost immediately after he returned
from the service.
Mr. Scherer. What year would that be ?
Mr. Kennedy. About December of 1945, and you have the record of
his citizenship. I don't know when he received his citizenship.
Mr. Scherer. Did he ever try to become a citizen prior to the time
that he became a citizen as a result of his service in the Marine Corps?
Mr. IvENNEDY. In later years, he told me how he would get an
immigration permit to come over to Minneapolis and then the Immi-
1304 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
gration Department would make him leave, and I guess he was asked
to leave the country several times. It was not a formal deportation
proceedingj but just, "Your permit is over and about gone," so that
probably discouraged him from ever trying to become a citizen before.
Mr. ScHERER, Counsel, would you refresh my recollection as to how
a person who was a member of the armed services and not a citizen
could become a citizen ?
Mr. Ta\t-:xxer. There was a special statute or regulation which
permitted the Government to waive certain requirements for naturali-
zation of persons in the armed services, so that it became very easy and
very quickly performed by the person in the armed services appearing
in a Federal court or some other court and taking the oath which
renounces allegiance to the former country of his birth and become
naturalized.
Mr. Scherer. As long as I have been a member of this committee,
I did not know until I listened to this witness this morning that a
person who was an alien, under the rules of the Communist Party,
could not join the Communist Party in the United States.
Mr. Tavenner. I may add that in the opinion of the staff, it seems
that this must have been merely a local arrangement because we know
of numerous instances in which people have been deported who were
found to have been members of the Commmiist Party of the United
States both before and after having been naturalized.
Mr. Scherer. Witness, what do you have to say to that ?
Mr. Kennedy, We were told if a person was not a citizen they
could not be recruited into the Communist Party and if they were
members of the Communist Party, they could no longer be active and
attend meetings. But I know that the opposite was carried out in
many cases. I am sure they didn't go out and kick out all of their
hard-core members because of this. It was a tactical move.
Mr. Scherer. Where were you living when you were told that?
Mr. Kennedy. Rockforcl, 111.
Mr. Scherer. Is my recollection correct that you said you had some
correspondence! or conversation with Corbin and/or his wife relative
to Ills not joining the Communist Party because he was not a citizen ?
Mr. KJENNEDY. No, I think the record will show that I said that I
had discussion with Carl Thorman, Einar Sell, and some other people
who were Communist Party members that they should not take in
this Paul Corbin in the Rockforcl branch — —
Mr. JoHANSEN. Because he was not a citizen ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. Wliat prompted us to get in the record the statement
of the witness that a person had to be a citizen of the United States
before becoming a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Tavenner. As I recall, the witness volunteered that statement
in discussing where the wife became a member of the Communist
Party and from what area there may have been a transfer of her
membership to San Diego.
Mr. Tuck. I imagine, also, they followed that policy, not just for
the protection of the Communist Party of the United States, but to
make it so that a person who might become a party a]:)plicant would
become a citizen first — because he could 7iot become a citizen after he
had become a member of the Communist Party without committing
perjury. Is that right, Mr. Tavenner ?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1305
Mr. Tavenner. Yes ; that would be the effect of it. It would cer-
tainly subject the Communist Party member to a very serious
jeopardy.
Mr. Tuck. It disqualified him from ever becoming a citizen.
Mr. ScHERER. It is obvious to me from the testimony we have had
this morning and other testimony we have already had in this matter
that this fellow Corbin was a 'hard-core member, not only of^ the
Young Connnunist League, but subsequently a member of the Com-
munist Party. The only thing that is not clear is when and where.
Is my analysis of the testimony correct that we do not have a clear
picture"^ as to when and where he first became a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Tavenner. Well, I think the evidence so far is subject to pos-
sible various interpretations and I would not want to express an opin-
ion with regard to it until I have produced for the committee all of
the evidence that we have.
Mr. Scherer. I am trying to remember from the evidence where
and when he initially became a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Bruce. You stated IVIilwaukee, did you not ^
Mr. Ivennedy. Yes.
Mr. JoHANSEX. I believe you stated that that was from informa-
tion that you had had from ^Ir. and Mrs. Corbin.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Bruce. That is Communist Party, U.S.A. ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. And that was after liis discharge from the Marine
Corps ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have any more specific information as to
the location from which Mrs. Corbin's membership may have been
transferred to San Diego, if you know anything about it at all ?
Mr. Kennedy. Nothing specific ; no, sir.
Mr. Scherer. The witness says nothing specific, but as you pointed
out, we are engaged in an exploratory investigation. I think we
should pursue that further.
Mr. Tavtenner. The point that I am raising is whether or not her
membership was transferred to the west coast. My question is di-
rected at that subject to see whether or not you learned from Mr.
and Mrs. Corbin, or either of them, anything about transfer of mem-
bership of Mrs. Corbin to the west coast.
Mr. Kennedy. I understand from conversations with the Corbins
that Mrs. Gertrude Cox Corbin became a party member when they
lived in Chicago, prior to his going into the Marine Corps. Then I
further understand from conversation with them that she transferred
her membership when she was moved to the West Coast, to San Diego,
with Paul Corbin.
Mr. JoHANSEN. Was it in that general area of those same conversa-
tions that you learned of his having become a member of the party
after he became a citizen in Milwaukee?
Mr. Kennedy. Sir, the conversations wherein he told me of his
membership in the party, of course, occurred after the war and con-
cerned his membership in Milwaukee.
Mr. JoHANSEN. About when were those conversations?
1306 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Kennedy. I would say several times during the year 1946.
Mr. JoHANSEN. That was in conversations where — in Milwaukee or
where ?
Mr. Kennedy. At my house in Rockf ord and at his mother-in-law's
house in Janesville and at his apartment in Milwaukee.
Mr. JoHANSEN. Was the mother-in-law present during any of those
conversations ?
Mr. Kennedy. No, sir, she was in no way connected.
Mr. Tavenner. I want to be certain that the record is clear on this
point. Wlien was it that Mrs. Corbin was on the West Coast I Was
it while her husband was still in the armed services or was it at some
later period ?
Mr. IvENNEDY. It was when her husband was in the armed services.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether Corbin and his wife went
back to California at some later date after getting out of the serv^ice ?
Mr. IvENNEDY. They never lived there. They just went out there
to visit. They went one time to visit Emil Costello. They came back
to Janesville after the service was over.
Mr. Tavenner. There was a name of an attorney in Rockford who
subscribed to the Daily Worker being sold by Paul Corbin. Do you
recall now who that was ?
Mr. KJENNEDY. That was an attorney, James Berry. ^
1 Affidavit :
State of Illinois,
Winnebago County, ss:
James Berry, being first duly sworn on his oath, deposes and says that :
On December 5, 1961, Mr. Neil B. Wetterman, of the Committee on Un-American Activi-
ties of the House of Representatives of the United States, consulted me in my office
concerning my acquaintance with one Paul Corbin. At that time Mr. Wetterman showed
me two sets of pictures purporting to portray photographically the Paul Corbin to whom
reference was made in his investigation. At that time Mr. Wetterman asked me whether
or not I had purchased a subscription to the Daily Worker through Paul Corbin. Mr.
Wetterman also informed me that Joseph Kennedy, whom I knew in Rockford as a business
representative or business agent of the United Furniture Workers CIO Local Union prior
to his induction in the service about the middle of 1943, had informed the committee that
Paul Corbin sold me said subscription to the Daily Worker. At that time I told Mr.
Wetterman I had no recollection as to who sold me the subscription. To the best of my
recollection Mr. Joseph Kennedy was in my office at the time the subscription was sold.
One picture purporting to be a photograph of Paul Corbin, which was shown by Mr.
Wetterman, appeared to be that of a person whom I had known. Had I seen the man's
picture without the information Mr. Wetterman gave me, I could not have said it was a
photograph of Paul Corbin. Had I seen the person whose picture was shown me by Mr.
Wetterman I would not have known his name.
I knew Joseph Kennedy very well. My records indicate a billing to the United Furniture
Workers Local No. 707 situated at 118 North Water Street, Rockford, 111., on May 2, 1941.
On February 12, 1942, I wrote Mr. Kennedy a letter confirming our agreement for me to
represent the union on a retainer basis. I did represent the union in matters of contract
negotiation by advising Mr. Kennedy and other members as to the legal interpretation of
contracts. I represented other members of the union who had been arrested for various
minor offenses in conjunction with picketing and other union activity.
In the period mentioned from May 1941. in 1942 and during a portion of 1943 I know
that Mr. Kennedy was business agent of the United Furniture Workers Union Local
No. 707. I saw Mr. Kennedy shortly after his return from service in World War II.
I represented Mr. Kennedy in 1949 in a personal business matter.
I believe that I did know a man named Corbin who was connected with the Furniture
Workers Union. I do not know in what capacity he was connected. My diary of June 23,
1942. indicates that a Mr. Corbin was in my office. I do not believe that I did any work
for him personall.y.
I did subscribe to the Daily Worker for a short period, my recollection Is for a period
of 3 months. It might have been made in 1941 subsequent to the 1st of May or during
the year 1942. My best recollection Is that the subscription was made in the summer of
1942. I have no records, however, which would substantiate this. It is my recollection
that Mr. Kennedy was in my office at the time I purchased the subscription. I have no
recollection as to who was with him. I cannot state who sold me the subscription.
Further this affiant salth not.
James Berry.
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 12th day of December, A.D. 1961.
[SEAL] Marion MacCallom,
Notary Public.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1307
Mr. Tavenner. Is he still living- in Rockf ord ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have any further knowledge regarding the
trip that Corbin made to the west coast to visit Costello ? By that I
mean, do you know whether it wound up merely as a visit and whether
there was some intention on the part of Corbin when he left to estab-
lish a permanent residence in California ?
Mr. Kennedy. I am sure that he had no plans to establish a per-
manent residence in California because he was in partnership with
me and very dependent upon me at that time, and I am sure lie had no
such plans.
Mr. Taahenner. Did Corbin state what the purpose of his trip to
California Avas ?
Mr. Kennedy. He had a brother-in-law who was a doctor in Winni-
peg who had moved, as a Canadian citizen, to California with Corbin's
sister to set up practice there, and it was illegal at that time to take
money out of Canada. This was in 1948. I believe that Corbin went
to Canada as a tourist, got the money, came back and then delivered the
money to his brother in California.
Mr. Johansen. To deliver the money to his brother-in-law in Cali-
fornia ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the connection of Costello with this ?
Mr. Kennedy. Costello lived in California and I think it was
purely social. My impression of Costello when he broke with the
party was completely and utterly.
Mr. Tavenner, And that he broke before he went to California?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Bruce. A while ago you indicated that you had in your posses-
sion a letter which you referred to as the strange attachment of Mr.
Corbin to you. Do you have that letter with you ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, I do.
Mr. Bruce. Would you care to read the letter ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. It is on the stationery of the Hotel Northland
and it is from Green Bay, Wis.
Mr. Bruce. What is the date ?
Mr. Kennedy. There is no date on the letter, but the envelope car-
ries the date of July 6, 1949.
Mr. Johansen. That is the postmark date ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir. I have here that the last day of our part-
nership was April 11, 1949, so this letter was several months later.
[Witness reading :]
Dear Joe : Reason am writing, tried to reach you at home couple of times. I
suppose you are on the road. I have two deals plus one am finishing now,
however. I find that it gets monotonous working alone and I don't think
it is as profitable because two people sell more working together and now that
you have a car it would work out much better on the road because that was
the reason for the differences with you.
Would you call me at Janesville as soon as you get in town or drop over to
the house with Marion? It is pretty cool up here but still not cool enough to
suit me. How's business? I understand you have swung a couple of big
deals. I have, too, Joe, but frankly, the money ain't coming in as it used to
when we both worked together. I don't like working alone.
87845—62 6
1308 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
I don't know how you feel about it, but I suppose if you feel the same as I do,
I think we could make more together by pooling our energies and resources
and I believe it is more congenial to work that way. However, I don't know
how you feel about it so am putting out a feeler, so to speak.
In any event, let me hear from you, Joe.
Paux.
I would like to introduce the letter and ask that it be identified as
Kennedy Exhibit No. 2.
Mr. Tuck. It will be so marked.
(Document marked "Kemiedy Exhibit No. 2" for identification pur-
poses only.)
Mr. Tavexner. Mr. Kennedy, I Avant to give you an opportunity
to make any statement that you may desire to make regarding your
getting out of the Communist Party. I would like for you to have
every opportunity to place in the record any statements that you have.
jMr. Kennedy. j\Ir. Chairman, I left the Communist Party and since
that time I have developed into the publishing business and my busi-
ness has to do with publishing house organs for veterans organiza-
tions, fraternal organizations, labor organizations, and so on. For
example, we publish the official paper for the Veterans of Foreign
Wars for the State of Iowa for many years and we publisli an annual
year book that they use at their converition every year and we publish
the official paper for a number of labor councils in Iowa and that
vicinity.
The only thing I can say is that I have a written record of which
I have just brought a few samples along, of publishing hundreds of
anti-Communist articles, and I will submit here for the committee,
and I have hundreds of these, and of course, hundreds of copies of
newspapers.
Naturally, I have built myself a very successful business and I be-
long to chambers of commerce and better business bureaus and coun-
try clubs and have stocks in banks and all that, and naturall}', it is
very embarrassing 20 years later to be exposed as a former Com-
munist. It is a very rough row to hoe.
The only thing I can say is 'way back when, years ago — I believe we
had the date of 1953 mentioned here today — I went to the Federal
Bureau of Investigation and to the Immigration and Naturalization
Service about Paul Corbin because I consider him a very dangerous
person and I am sure that by the time this committee is through in-
vestigating this person, they will probably come to the same con-
clusion.
So, the only thing I can say is that I was wrong in those years
and I think I have been right since then and I hope that I don't have
to suffer too much from my errors of the past.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Bruce. I would like to make one comment. There are an
awful lot of people who made some pretty tragic mistakes at one period
in the history of this country not too many years back, and it takes
a great deal of courage to do what you have done. I personally would
like to thank you for j'our cooperation and for the testimony that you
have given.
There is one other question I would like to ask oft' the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1309
]\Ii'. JoiiAxsEX. Yoli have spoken, Mr. Kennedy, of having gone
to the Federal Bureau of Investigation with information and a re-
port regarding ^Ir. Corbin in 1953. Were there any particular events
•or circumstances or other factors which triggered or motivated or
prompted that action at that time, and if so, what were they?
Mr. Kennedy. The onlv thing that I remember, I had been to the
FBI before that in Rockford, 111.
Mr. ScHERER. YvHien ?
Mr. Kennedy. In 1950, 1 believe.
Mr. Bruce. This was after you left the party ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes; and I talked to the Internal Revenue people
about this partnership return because I was a little worried about
tlie Avhole picture. If he would fail to file, I wanted to know what
my status would be and I consulted with them about this partnership
return.
To get back to this question, the Korean war was quite a shock
Mr. Scherer. In 1950 when you went to the FBI the first time, did
that involve Corbin, other than in reference to matters involving in-
come tax ?
Mv. Kennedy. The income tax, of course, I consulted with the In-
ternal Revenue people.
Mr. Johansen. What did you go to the FBI people about in 1950?
Mr. Kennedy. The whole question of the Communist activitv in
Rockford, 111.
Mr. Scherer. Did you go voluntarily ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Johansen. Did that involve Corbin ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes ; the earlier one.
I can't remember who I talked to at the FBI in Rockford. I am
a little vague about it. I remember going to Internal Revenue. I am
a little confused on this to tell you the truth. You see, I was talking
to the people from Immigration and Naturalization many times, and
it might have been the Immigration people, too, because the Immigra-
tion people talked to me many times and I talked to the FBI several
times. I would not want to set the specific date of that conversation.
Mr. Johansen. But there was an earlier one, prior to 1953, with the
FBI?
Mr. Kennedy. I believe there was.
Mr. Johansen. Go ahead in answer to my question about 1953. I
am afraid I diverted you.
Mr. Kennedy. In 1953. of course, the Korean war shocked ever}"-
body, including myself. Then I saw that Corbin had become national
commander of the Marine Corps League and I had known about this
deal when we were being shown all these naval installations and things
like that and I was a little bit worried about what this unstable char-
acter might do some day if he got too deeply worked into the patriotic
societies, veterans societies, and the whole question of national de-
fense and so on.
Mr. Johansen. Did your concern go not only to what you refer to
as his instability, but also his party membership ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. When was he national commander of the INIarine
Corps League?
1310 TESTLMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Kennedy. I don't have the facts on that.
Mr. ScHERER. It was prior to the time that you went to the FBI in
1953?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir. If I may add to this, as one who once was
a member of the Commmiist Party, I know considerable about infiltra-
tion tactics. Whenever I see any former member becoming prominent
in any mass organization or any organization of this type, I watch
that person. I am a little suspicious of them.
Mr. Bruce. Unless they have openly recanted ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes; but in my own case, I have had many oppor-
timities to be the county chairman of the comity I am in and to run
for political office and things like that.
Well, I just did not think it was in the cards.
Mr. Soherer. Witness, you just said that you had many conversa-
tions Avith the Immigration and Naturalization Service about Corbin.
Mr, Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scmerer. Why did the Immigration and Naturalization Service
contact you ?
Mr. Kennedy. I didn't say that we were talking specifically about
Corbin all the time. We talked about Corbin because they are in-
terested in the question of whether his affidavit when he got his citizen-
ship under this special statute of Congress — did he perjure himself
when he swore he was not a member of the Communist Party ?
In other words, it was a question of whether there was perjury on his
part and they consulted me about many people who had been members
of the party.
Mr. ScHERER. I am only interested in your conversations with the
Immigration and Naturalization Service with reference to Corbin.
Mr. Kennedy. That is what they were looking for.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you tell the Immigration and Naturalization
Service substantially wliat you have told us today ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir. There is only one conditioning factor.
They wanted statements under the rules of evidence and, consequently,
my testimony was a little more limited.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, we do not have a record of Corbin
having been national commander of the Marine Corps League. We
are imcertain whether he was or not, but in 1952 and 1953 he did hold
a position of national chief of staff of the organization.
Mr. ScHERER. Was he then State commandant of the Marine Corps
League ?
Mr. Kennedy. 1947 and 1948.
Mr. ScHERER. This was in Wisconsin ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tuck. When did you first make public your connections with
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Kennedy. I never made them public. I only spoke to the
FBI, the Immigration Service, and so on.
Mr. Bruce. In other words, the people in your community do not
know this ?
Mr. Kennedy. No ; they do not.
TESTLMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1311
Mr. Ta\"exner. You Iuiac made several references to Corhin's state-
ment to YOU reirardino- tlie difiiculties about his entry to the United
States.
Mr. Kexxedy. Yes, sir.
Mr. TA^'ENXER. Did he at any time ever tell you ^v]lether lie had
been excluded or had been deported ?
Mr. Kexxedy. He said that he had been ; yes.
Mr. TA^'EXNER. He said what ?
Mr. Kennedy. He said that he had been excluded and had been
depoi'ted, but I understood this to mean not a formal deportation.
Just "Get liack across tlie border or else" type of thino;.
Mr. JoHANSEN. What was the reference to exclusion ? As I under-
stand the terms, exclusion would be denyino; him admission in some
instance, whereas deportation or notification that his time had ex-
pii-ed and that he liad to leave would be in a different category.
Do I imderstand that there are instances or at least one instance of a
denial of admission to the United States ?
Mr. Kennedy. I really don't know, sir. I did not o-o into it spe-
cifically. I suspect there was a lot of unemployment durino; this
period and I suspect there was a question of some Canadian coming
here and working or it might have been some crooked activity or
some Communist Party activity.
Mr. Brfce. What year was it that you said you went to Chicago
after you got out of the service ?
Mr. Kennedy. Immediately afterward.
Mr. Bruce. What year was that ?
Mr. Kennedy. Probably November or December 1945.
]Mr. Taa-enner. At the time that Corbin was talking to you about
his difficulties with regard to entry and lieing sent back, did he tell
Aou why he had been de])orted or excluded ?
Mr. Kennedy. Pie didn't really say specifically, but I got the im-
pression that he was just considered rather undesirable by the Immi-
gration people up at the border there.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. JoHANSEN. I want to associate myself with tlie comments of
Congressman Bruce in expressing my appreciation for the very diffi-
cult task you have performed and the cooperation you have given.
Mr. ScHERER. I think the whole committee feels that way.
Mr. TrCK. The committee will be in recess until 2 o'clock this
ufternoon.
(Whereupon, at 12 :45 p.m., Monday, November 27, 1961, the hear-
ing was recessed, to be reconvened at 2 p.m. of the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION— NOVEMBER 27, 1961
Mr. Tuck (presiding). Mr. Kerstein, will you stand and raise your
right hand, please ?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. Kerstein. I do.
1312 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
TESTIMONY OF EDWAED S. KERSTEIN
Mr. Tavexxer. Mr. Kersteiii, will you please give us vour full
name ?
Mr. Kersteix. Edward S. Kerstein, K-e-r-s-t-e-i-n.
Mr. Tavexxer. How are you employed, Mr. Kerstein ?
]\Ir. Kersteix. I am a newspaper reporter.
]Mr. Ta\^xxer. With what newspaper ?
Mr. Iversteix. The Milwaukee JourmaL Milwaukee, Wis.
Mr. Tavexxer. How long have you been so employed I
Mr. Kersteix. Since June 20, 1935.
Mr. Tavexxer. Mr. Kerstein, the committee has subpenaed you here
under somewhat unusual circumstances. Notwithstanding the decision
of the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, Second Circuit, in the case of
Judy Garland v. Mai^ Torre (259 F. 2d. 545), of comparatively re-
cent date, which upheld the right to compel a newspaperman who ap-
pears as a witness, mider certain circumstances, to divulge sources of
his information, it has, nevertheless, been the policy of this committee
not to put a news reporter in that position. By that I do not mean to
say we will not do so in the future, but it has been generally against
the committee's policy.
So first of all, I think that we ought to make it clear that we do
not want to deviate from that policy in this case if you have any feeling
that you should not answer questions that the committee is interested
in.
Mr. Kersteix. I understand.
Mr. Ta\t:xxer. So we would like to know, first of all, how 3'ou feel
about that.
Mr. Kersteix. Well, I was served with a subpena, and I certainly
respect the subpena and the subpena powers of this committee. And
wdth that understanding, I came here to testify and answer questions,
and before being asked any questions I thought perhaps if I made an
opening statement as to how I began this investigation, or how I was
assigned, perhaps it would clarify a lot of questions.
Mr. Tavexxer. Well, now, there is a difficulty about that. I don't
know how closely you have followed the hearings before this com-
mittee, but in virtually every hearing that we have, we have persons
w^ho have been members of the Communist Party who appear as wit-
nesses, and the first thing that they want to do is to make a statement
to the committee. Now, in those instances, we know pretty well why
those statements are being prepared and made, but it puts us in a very
awkward position to establish a precedent about permitting other
people to make statements that we will not permit certain witnesses
to make.
Mr. Kersteix. Surely.
Mr. Ta\texxer, Now, if, at the close of the hearing, you desire to
make any statement that you may have and hand it to the chairman
of the committee, he will be very glad to see, I am sure, that other
membei^s of the committee see the statement.
Mr. ScuERER. Or if he Avants to ])resent the statement uov, he niav
do that.
Mr. Tavexxer. Yes, if you want to do it now.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1313
Mr. Kerstein. You see, the statement explains how I received this
assignment and how I went about to investigate the past of Paul
Corbin. In view of the delicate nature, perhaps the committee would
be interested in knowing how I went about investigating the back-
ground of Mr. Paul Corbin.
a\Ir. Tavexner. Well, if you have such a statement and desire to
hand it up to the chairman, I am sure he will accept it.
Do you have a written statement?
Mr. Kerstein. If you would like to, then — —
Mr. Tuck. I would just suggest that he hand it to you.
Mr. TA\'E]srxER. Do you have it in loosel'eaf form, there, that we
could look at it and hand it back to you ?
Mr. Kerstein. Yes. I could take these pages out. The rest are
my notes relating to the entire investigation that I made.
Mr. Tavenister. All right.
]\rr. ScHERER. Well, we could have copies made of it by the staff,
so that every member of the committee could have a copy.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Mr. Kerstein, the committee has interviewed a
number of witnesses, and it has subpenaed a number of witnesses
from time to time to appear before subcommittees, and we have re-
ceived their testimony. In the course of the testimony of some of them,
it has appeared that, prior to our subpenaing them, they had given
affidavits to you regarding facts within their knowledge regarding
Paul Corbin. And I assume that that is correct. Do you have
affidavits?
Mr. KJERSTEiN. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. I think, Mr. Chairman, that we ought to request
the witness to present those affidavits, because it will be of importance
to the committee in weighing the testimony of these witnesses to
determine whether there is anything material that was left out of
their testimony before us, or whether there is any erroneous or false
statement made that should require further investigation. So with
the chairman's permission, I will ask the witness to present those
affidavits to us.
I assume, of course, that you will want to retain the original, and
if you permit us to make copies of the affidavits, we will return the
originals to you.
Mr. ScHERER. Maybe he has copies.
Mr. Tamenner. Yes, if you have copies, we will accept those in lieu
of the originals.
Mr. Kerstein. I have duplicate copies. The originals are in the
possession of my superior at the Milwaukee Journal. I had made
an original and a duplicate.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, if you can spare the duplicate, that is quite
satisfactory.
Mr. Kerstein. However, m}^ boss would appreciate it if we could
have these back.
Mr. Tavenner. All right. Let me look at them.
Mr. Kerstein. Here are four affidavits.
Mr. Ta\t3Nner. Mr. Chairman, the first affidavit is that of John
Giacomo, who testified before our committee. I would like to offer
that affidavit in evidence and ask that it be marked "Kerstein Exhibit
1314 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
No. 1,"" with instmctions that the original may be withdrawn and a
copy retained in the record.
Mr. Tuck. Unless there is objection from some member of the com-
mittee, it is so ordered.
(Document marked "Kerstein Exhibit No. 1," and retained in com-
mittee files.)
Mr. Ta-\t:xxer. I desire also to offer in evidence the affidavit of
Walter T. Anderson, with the same request.
Mr. Tuck. Ujiless there is objection, it is so ordered.
(Document marked "Kerstein Exhibit No. 2" and retained in com-
mittee files.)
Mr. TA^'ENNER. I would like also to offer as an exhibit the affidavit
of Joseph A. Poskonka, with the same request.
Mr. Brfce. What is his name ?
Mr. Ta%t:nner. Poskonka.
(Document marked "Kerstein Exhibit No. 3" and retained in com-
mittee files.)
Mr. Taatnxer. Mr. Chairman, I desire to offer in evidence the
affidavit of Joseph C. Kennedy, with the same request.
Mr. Tuck. Unless there is objection.
Hearing none, it is so ordered.
(Document marked "Kerstein Exhibit No. 4" and retained in com-
mittee files.)
Mr. Tavexxer. Thank you very much.
Mr. Kersteix. You are welcome.
Mr. Ta\'ex^xer. Mr. Kerstein, this committee, of course, is very
zealous of its record regarding abstinence from use of hearsay testi-
mony. The purpose of calling you is to get any lead information you
can give us which the committee does not have. That is one of the
main purposes.
I am not going to ask you to tell this committee anything that you
have learned by hearsay testimony, by hearsay statements, in talking
to various people, but I would like to ask you to give us the names of
all the persons who have been interviewed by you who can contribute
any information to the committee regarding Communist Party mem-
bership of Paul Corbin in the United States, or his membership in
the loung Communist League in Canada, prior to his entry into
the United States, and to give us the addresses of these persons that
you may know, who have information ; and then, when that infor-
mation is obtained, investigators of this committee, if they have not
already done so, will follow those leads and interrogate the people
whose names you give us.
Would you be willing to attempt to give us that information?
Mr. Kersteix. Well, that is a rather lengthy question. The only
information that was available, in response to your question, was
the admission of Paul Corbin to Joseph C. Kennedy in the affidavit
tliat was presented here to you.
Mr. Taa-exxer. Yes. Yes, we have that affidavit, and Mr. Kennedy
has testified.
Now, is there any other individual whom you have contacted who
is in a position to give information relating to Communist Party
membership of Corbin? If so, will you give the name and address?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1315
Mr. Kerstein. You have an ailidavit ^viiicli was sworn to by Jolni
D. Giacomo.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Now, you need not go into those whose affi-
davits you have given us, because we have that information from
those affidavits, as well as other information; but if there is anyone
else, whose affidavit we do not have, or rather whose affidavit you
do not have, we would like to know it.
Mr. Kersteix. Xo.
Mr. Tavenner. I think I should ask you : Are you pei-sonally ac-
quainted with Paul Corbin i
Mr. Kerstein. As I stated in the statement which I handed to the
committee, and as I said at the outset, perhaps if I read that state-
ment, it would clarify a number of questions which you might have
put forth to me. As my opening statement to the conmiittee states.
I had never met Mr. Paul Corbin. The only conversation I ever had
with Mr. Paul Corbin was on the day I Avas assigned to investigate
a memorandum that a Mr. Xeil Wetterman, an investigator of the
House Un-American Activities Committee, is in Milwaukee on Au-
gust 16, reportedly to investigate Mr. Paul Corbin.
I then contacted Mr. Wetterman at the Shorecrest Hotel in Mil-
waukee, and he told me he was in no position to make any comment
of any kind, and he advised me to contact Mr. Tavenner, the execu-
tive director of this committee, or his secretary.
I contacted Mr. Tavenner's office, but he was not available, and sub-
sequently I contacted Mr. Paul Corbin. And that was the only con-
tact I ever had with Mr. Paul Corbin.
Mr, Ta\-enner. I believe maybe you called here several times. I
think maybe I spoke to you once over the telephone, when you asked
for information as to whether the committee was engaged in making
this investigation.
Mr. Kerstein. Perhaps a day or two later, yes.
Mr, Ta\tenner. Yes, some days later. But the only discussion that
you have had with any member of this staff was to ask whether we
were making the investigation ?
Mr. Kers'i'ein. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. And the reply given to you on all the occasions,
I believe, was the same reply we would give to anyone else ?
Mr. Iverstein. That is correct. And that is wh3''my office told me
to go ahead and investigate the past of Mr, Paul Corbin, to determine
wdiy this committee should be interested in investigating his back-
ground,
Mr, Taatnner. And the reply that you received was that the com-
mittee would neither affirm nor deny tliat an investigation was being
made ?
Mr. Kerstein, That is correct, sir.
Mr. Taatnner. And that is the only discussion you have liad with
any member of the staff, is it not, until after you were subpenaed
here ?
Mr. Kerstein. That is correct,
Mr. Taatenner. "WHiat was the date Avhen you were subpenaed?
Do you recall ?
]\Ir. Kerstein. Well, the subpena is dated October 13.
1316 TESTIMOjS^ by and concerning PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Ta\-exxer. It was served on you, according to the return, on
November 1, 1961.
Mr. Kerstein. That is correct.
Mr. Tan-enner. Since November 1, I believe you called into the
committee and asked what information you should bring; is that
correct ?
Mr. Kerstein. I spoke to Mr. Wetterman, yes.
Mr. Taa-exner. And I believe he advised you to bring all the in-
formation you had. Was that not in substance what he said to you?
Mr. KJERSTEiN. Yes. He says: "Bring whatever you may have."
Mr. Ta\'exxer. And other than those conversations, you have not
had any with the staff of this committee?
Mr. Kerstein. Well, you mean the members of the committee?
Mr. Ta%tenner. No ; the members of the staff.
Mr. Kerstein. The staff? No.
Mr. Ta^^nner. Now, do you have any personal knowledge of your
own regarding any Communist Party activities at any time engaged
in by Paul Corbin ?
Mr. Kerstein. Would you kindly repeat ?
Mr. TA^'ENNER. I ask you if you have any personal knowledge of
your own, that is. information aside from what has been told you by
other people, as to Paul Corbin's affiliation with the Communist
Party.
Mr. Kerstein. By that you mean : Do I have my own personal ob-
servations of his participation in Communist activities ?
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Yes.
Mr. Kj:rstein. No. No, sir.
Mr. TA^^:NNER. Well, Mr. Chairman, we have obtained, now, the
affidavits that we were interested in obtaining, and we have obtained
the lead information in the form of names of any individuals that
the witness knows of who could give us information, and we have
obtained his statement that he himself had no personal knowledge of
Communist Party activities of Corbin. So in light of that, I feel I
have no further questions to ask.
Mr. ScHERER. May I ask, Mr. Chairman : Did we obtain the names
of all of the people he contacted who had information ?
Mr. Ta\'enner. Yes, he said there were no others besides those whose
affidavits he gave us.
That was what I understood the witness to say.
Mr. Kerstein. You mean of his
Mr. Ta^-enner. His Communist Party membership.
Mr. Kerstein. His Communist Party membership; yes. His ad-
missions to those who had given me the affidavits.
Mr. JoHANSEN. In other words, your information regarding his
Communist Party membership and'/or activities is covered by the
material in the affidavits?
Mr. Kerstein. As far as his membership in the Communist Partj
is concerned ?
Mr. JoHANSEN. Yes.
INIr. Kerstein. Just in those affidavits.
INIr. JoiiANSEN. I mean : Those affidavits are the extent of the infor-
mation vou have?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1317
Mr. Kersteix. As to Communist Party membership ?
Mr. JoHANSEN. Or activities.
Mr. Kerstein. Oh, there is other information through research that
I was able to gather, in which he had associated and participated
in activities in which known Communists had participated.
Mr. ScHERER. And those had been the subject of articles in the
Milwaukee Journal?
Mr. Kerstein. That is correct. You have the Milwaukee Journal
articles.
Mr. Scherer. I think perhaps, Mr. Chairman, we might ask him
the names of individuals with whom he discussed Paul Corbin and
who knew something about him, in order that the names of these
individuals might furnish leads for further questioning by our staff.
Often, of course, a person talking even to newspapermen will with-
hold some infonnation which he might subsequently give if he is
called under oath to testify.
Mr. Tuck. Would you object to disclosing to the committee the
identity of the other persons with whom you conferred to gain infor-
mation as a basis for your articles, other than the names of those who
signed affidavits?
Mr. Kersteix. Well, there have been a number of individuals
whom I liave intendewed who have assisted me in my research, and
I researclied through our newspaper files to trace the history of how
the Communist Party members were disposed of from labor unions
in Wisconsin, particularly in Milwaukee; and Paul Corbin was a
member of some organizations which the rightist elements of labor
had cleaned out.
Mr. Tuck. Could you give us the names of some of those
organizations ?
Mr. Kersteix. When Paul Corbin became business manager of
the Wisconsin CIO Neios, as was stated in the Jouimal article, and
this was announced also in the Wisconsin CIO iXeias, the announce-
ment stated tliat Corbin had been active in the labor movement in
Illinois from 1939, where from 1939 to 1942 he was an organizer
for the International Longshoremen's and Warehousemen's Union,
which was reported to be a Communist-dominated labor group.
Prior to that, he was on the staff of the United Furniture Workers,
according to the CIO Neios announcement, and the United Furniture
Workei*s also was proven to be a Communist-dominated labor group.
The June 28, 1946, issue of the Wisconsin CIO Neios announced
that Paul Corbin was appointed to the staff of District T, United
Public Workers of America, as a field representative.
The United Public Workers of America lost five of its Milwaukee
locals to the Government Workers Union in subsequent years on the
grounds that it was Communist dominated.
Organized labor in Wisconsin was among the first in the Nation
to break the stranglehold of the Communists on its organizations, in-
cluding the Wiscoihsin CIO News.
Alfred Hirsch, editor of the Wisconsin CIO News since 1942. was
fired by the new executive board of the State CIO Council at its first
meeting, December 13, 1947. Hirsch had been identified with the
Communist element in the CIO, which, in the State CIO Convention
1318 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
in December 1947, suffered a severe setback at the hands of the^ right-
wingers. Hirsch had been a former editorial employee of the Sunday
department oi the Daily Worker, official Communist Party newspaper.
Following his discharge for his pro-Communist views, Hirsch and
other members of the leftwing CIO groups disclosed plans to publish
their own rival labor newspaper, because they were disgruntled with
the new anti-Communist editorship of the Wlscoivsin CIO Neios.
The new publication was called the Midioest Guardian, which was
published for about a year before it folded, in August 1949. The
paper had offices in Milwaukee, St. Paul, and Chicago. Hirsch served
as associate editor and had an office in Milwaukee at 108 West Wells
Street, which was shared by the Communist-dominated CIO United
Public Workers Union, of which Corbin was Milwaukee business
agent.
Corbin replaced Albion Hauke, a Communist, who had applied 4
months earlier for the job of organizer for the union in the Hawaiian
Islands.
John Sorenson, who was secretary of the newly reorganized State
CIO in 1947, when Hirsch was fired as editor of the WiscMimn CIO
News, declared the new publishing venture of Hirsch and his col-
leagues as "Communist inspired."
"The Communists and their fellow travelers who have been ousted
from policymaking positions in the state CIO council apparently
have banded together to start a rump newspaper," Sorenson said.
"They have a lot of gall speaking of bias in the reporting of labor
news. Hirsch was dismissed from liis job with the CIO Neios be-
cause he couldn't keep bias out of the paper's columns — pro-Com-
munist bias."
Sorenson said that the proposed newspaper, the Midioest Guardian,
was merely another manifestation of attempts by Communist-
dominated groups in the CIO to sabotage pro-democratic policies of
the national CIO. Efforts to oust Hirsch from the CIO News had
been undertaken a year before he Avas fired, A showdown on tlie
ouster of Hirsch and other Communist sympathizers on the Wisconsin
CIO News occurred in December 1947. when rightwing forces cap-
tured control of the CIO Wisconsin State Union Council,
It proceeded on January 12, 1947. when the rightwingers clinched
their victory with the selection of Walter Cappel, a rightwing leader,
as legislative representative, and Max Raskin, anti-Communist at-
torney, as legal counsel. The selection of Cappel and Raskin at the first
meeting of the council's new executive broad in Milwaukee on Janu-
ary 12, 1947, was marked by vigorous opposition from leftwing Com-
munist members still on the board. Cappel's election by the narroAv
vote of 10 to 9 shut off a possible vote by the board for Mel J. Hein-
ritz, a Communist who handled the legislative work for Ww CIO
along with his former job as council secretary.
Heinritz was defeated for the secretary's post by John Sorenson
of the rightwing faction at the council's annual convention at Warsaw,
Wis, The new executive board at its Milwaukee meeting voted unan-
imously to withdraw financial support from the Wisconsin State Con-
ference on Social Legislation in line with recommendations made by
the national CIO in a report in November 1946 on the situation in
the council.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1319
Mrs. Josephine Nordstrand, who had been identified with Com-
miuiist activities in Wisconsin, headed the conference. The board
at the same metting also discussed action on revamping the staff of tlie
CIO News^ calling for reorganization of the labor paper and the resig-
nation or removal of the statf .
The board also voted that instead of paying $50 a month to the
AVisconsin Conference on Social Legislation, which was headed by
Mrs. Nordstrand, a Communist, the money was to be applied toward
Attorney Max Raskin's retainer.
In accepting the council post of the new CIO board, Raskin said
that he planned to dedicate himself to the task of making the State
CIO acceptable to all labor groups in the State. Because of its pre-
vious pro-Communist activities, rightwing labor groups in Wisconsin
had for a long time shied away from any alliance with the Wisconsin
Conference on Social Legislation.
Mrs. Isadora Ruffine, reportedly a Conmumist, was Hirsch's assist-
ant when he was fired as editor of the Wisconsm CIO Neivs^ and the
staff was reorganized- She served on the staff' from July 1945 to
March 1947, when she reportedly had lived at 1247 North Kass Street
in Milwaukee. During its comparatively brief life, the Midwest Guard-
ian^ of which Hirsch served as associate editor, had the financial sup-
port of a number of Commmiist-dominated CIO unions. The paper
claimed a wide circulation in Wisconsin, but these claims had been
sharply discounted by rightwing CIO leaders.
The Mihoaukee Journal had carried all of this information in its
new^s articles, and prior to my appearance here in Washington, I had
doublechecked all these facts in the newspaper with Mr. Raskin, who
is still a widely active labor attorney in Slilwaukee. And he corrob-
orated the veracity of these facts that I have stated here to you,
involving the Wisconsin CIO News and its Communist Party
domination.
Mr. Tuck. We thank you very much.
Mr. Kerstein. Do you want his association with other known
Communists in Milwaukee ?
Mr. Tavenner. We have heard a lot of testimony regarding that
subject.
Mr. Kerstein. You have his affiliation and his association with Ed-
mund V. Bobrowicz of the Veterans Committee?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Kerstein. And the United Public Workers Committee ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. We have all that.
Mr, Bruce. Go ahead with other names.
Mr. Tuck. Is there anything else that you have that we do not
have ?
Mr. Kerstein. Well, I don't know whether the committee has his
association with a committee that had been repudiated by the Wiscon-
sin CIO Council for its sponsorship of a meeting for Henry Wallace.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Yes, we have an exhibit on that.
I believe that covers everything I have in mind, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Tuck. Well, we thank you very much, Mr. Kerstein.
Mr. Kerstein. May I request a copy of the transcript of my
testimony?
1320 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Tuck. We, of course, as you know, are in executive session,,
and we do not customarily make available to any witnesses copies of
their testimony, and I certainly would not have any authority to rule
on that today, until we have the whole committee here. The chair-
man of the committee is not present here today.
Mr. Bruce. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that he submit a request
such as that to the committee for further consideration ?
Mr. Tuck. If you will consider that then as a formal request, we
will be glad to consider it.
Mr. Kerstein. Yes, I would like to make this a formal request.
Mr. Ta\T3Nner. Thank you very much.
Mr. Kerstein. You are welcome.
Mr. Tam^nner. We will return these originals to you very
promptly.
Mr. Tuck. Thank you very much, sir.
Mr. Kerstein. Thank you.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Tuck. Do you soleimily swear the testimony you are about to
give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Blair. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF FRED BASSETT BLAIR, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,,
DAVID REIN
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your full name, please, sir.
Mr. Blair. My name is Fred Bassett Blair.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Blair, it is noted that you are accompanied
by counsel. Will counsel please identify himself for the record?
Mr. Rein. David Rein, 711 14th Street NW., Washington, D.C.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Blair?
Mr. Rein. I wonder, Mr. Tavenner, if we could have a statement
as to the purpose of this hearing at this time ?
Mr. Tavenner. A resolution authorizing this hearing was adopted:
by the committee on the 22d day of November, 1961.
(For text of resolution, see p. vii.)
Mr. Tavenner. The purpose, as outlined in that resolution, to re-
peat, is that the committee is investigating the occupation of impor-
tant posts in this country affecting the national interest by persons
who have been or are now members or affiliates of the Communist
Party, and for the legislative matters mentioned.
Now, we did not call you, Mr. Blair, for tlie purpose of asking you
about your own Communist Party activities. We called you for the
purpose of asking you questions regarding alleged Communist Party
activities of other persons, and one particular person ; and that person
is Paul Corbin, in this instance.
So my first question to you is
Mr. Scherer. Have you got the address of this witness ?
Mr. Tavenner. No, I have not.
Wliat is your address ?
Mr. Blair. You asked me my place of birth. October 4, 1900, im
Berlin, Wis.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1321
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Blair. 3136 North 15th Street, Milwaukee, Wis.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Milwaukee ?
Mr. Blair. Off and on since 1925.
Mr. Tavenner. What do you mean by "off and on" ?
Mr. Blair. Well, in the main in jNIilwaukee. In early years I went
to school. I worked there and went to school, and tilings like that,
you see. But my pretty steady residence, I would say, since 1929
Mr. Tavenner. Have you lived there constantly since 1940 ?
Mr. Blair, Since 1940, with the exception of 3 or 4 years.
Mr. Tavenner. What years ?
Mr. Blair. The years were 1951-55.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere did you reside then ?
Mr. Blair. I resided in Kockford, 111., Duluth, Minn., and Chicago,
111. I returned to Milwaukee in the fall of 1955.
May I ask a question ?
I would like to identify Congressman Schadeberg, if I may.
Mr. Bruce. He is not here.
Mr. Blair. I see his name over there.
Mr. Tavenner. There is no one sitting behind the nameplate.
Mr. Blair. Could I be acquainted with the other members of the
committee ? Mr. Bruce from where ?
Mr. Bruce. Indiana.
Mr. Blair. And Mr. Johansen from Minnesota ?
Mr. Johansen. Michigan.
Mr. Blair. You strayed off the range.
Mr. Johansen. Never got there.
Mr. Blair. Well, that is a Danish name, anyway. You probably
come from Omaha originally.
Mr. Scherer, I guess, is from Ohio. And Mr. Tuck is from
Mr. Rein. Virginia.
Mr. Blair. I like to know who I am talking to. I would like to see
Mr. Schadeberg, because he is a neighbor of mine and a fellow Con-
gregationalist, you see.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your present occupation ?
Mr. Blair. I am a bookseller.
Mr. Tavenner. Representing what company ?
Mr. Blair. I am a manager of Mary's Bookshop at 530 West State
Street, Milwaukee, Wis.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been so engaged ?
Mr. Blair. Close to 6 years, 6 years come February.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Blair, Mr. Harold Scott, who testified before
this committee, stated that in 1945 he went to see you about being
reactivated in his Communist Party membership. Do you recall the
incident?
Mr. Blair. Well, here I think I will have to make clear something.
The stated purposes of this inquiry are such that, because of the exist-
ence of the McCarran Act and the Supreme Court ruling on it, and
the Smith Act
Mr. Scherer. Would you talk a little louder, please ?
Mr. Blair. The stated purposes of this hearing are such that be-
cause of the existence of the McCarran Act, the Smith Act, the Su-
preme Court rulings, I shall have to decline to answer any questions
1322 TESTESIONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
in connection with the Communist Party, my past associations, knowl-
edge of anybody now or previously connected with it, under the fifth
amendment.
I shall have to do that. I think it is not with any intention to cief eat
the aims of justice or to be recalcitrant or to be contemptuous of this
committee; but any of you gentlemen in my position will understand
it. I shall have to refuse to answer under the fifth amendment, claim-
ing my right not to testify against myself or to incriminate myself.
I furthermore believe that this whole line of questioning, since you
have mentioned the name of Mr. Corbin — it hardly seems likely that a
committee which is engaged in studies for legislation should be pick-
ing on a fellow who was the object of an interparty Democratic Party
fight ill Wisconsin, where there were a lot of people on one side and a
lot on the other, and this is from Mr. Schadeberg's own district, and
it is being pushed by the man defeated by Mr. Schadeberg, Mr. Flynn,
by Congressman Zablocki in the MU/waukee Journal., and I think the
committee demeans itself by going after an individual and meddling
in an interparty fight over patronage and power in a situation like this.
I don't want to get caught in the middle of this scrap between a bunch
of Democrats over jobs, and I have nothing to say for or against Mr.
Corbin or those who are fighting for or against him. But I think
that should be left for the Democratic Party to disentangle the mess
they got into themselves, and I know the Republican members will be
very happy about it. But I for one don't want to get caught in the
middle, and I state from now on in my answer to any questions of this
type will be to plead the fifth amendment,
Mr. Tavexner. Let me ask you this question : Did Paul Corbin,
after getting out of the armed services in about 19-tB, come to you and
obtain from you directions as to what to do in the Communist Party?
Mr. Bl.\ir. I shall have to refuse to answer that under the fifth
amendment.
Mr. JoHANSEX. Mr. Chairman, let's clarify this point. The witness
says, "I shall have to do it." The witness, I am sure, is not implying
that the committee is compelling him to do it.
Am I correct in my understanding that you are invoking the fifth
amendment with respect to these questions because you believe that to
answer the questions would or might tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Blair. That is correct. I am not implying any compulsion on
the part of the committee. I am just saying tliat by asking these
questions you are placing me in a position where, frankly speaking,
if I want to save my own liide I must plead the fifth amendment.
Mr. JoHANSEN. Thank you.
Mr. Ta\t3Nner. Are you a member of the Communist Party now ?
Mr. Blair. Again I will have to call for the protection of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. TA^'E]srNER. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Ttjck. Any questions ?
Mr. Bruce. Do you know Paul Corbin to have been a member of the
Communist Party ?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1323
Mr. Blair. As I stated in the beginning, I will have to answer that
the same way. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Bruce. Do you know Paul Corbin ?
Mr Blair. I will have to again plead the fifth amendment.
Mr. Bruce. You used the fifth amendment on both questions I
asked you, did you not '?
Mr. Blair. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Tuck. The witness is excused.
Mr. Blair. Give my regards to Mr. Schadeberg.
Mr. Tuck. Mr. Floiy, w411 you stand and raise your right hand,
please ?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Flort. Eight.
TESTIMONY OF ISHMAEL P. ELORY, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
JOSEPH POKER
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please, sir.
Mr. Flory. The name is Ishmael Flory.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your last name.
Mr. Flory. F-1-o-r-y.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness identify
himself for the record.
Mr. FoRER. Joseph Forer, Washington, D.C.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Flory ?
Mr. Flory. Lake Charles, La.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee briefly what your edu-
cational training has been ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Flory. Would you mind stating the subject matter of the
hearing ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. The committee adopted a resolution on
November 22, 1961, which provides for these hearings.
(For text of resolution, see p. vii.)
Mr. Tavenner. Now will you state, please, briefly, what your edu-
cational training has been ?
Mr. Flory. Well, I went to grammar school in Louisiana; in Los
Angeles, Calif. I went to junior hi^h school in Los Angeles, Calif.
I went to the University of California at Los Angeles. I went to the
University of California in Berkeley. I went to Fisk University in
Nashville, and went to the University of California again in Berkeley.
Mr. Tavenner, When did you complete your work at the Univer-
sity of California in Berkeley ?
Mr. Flory. In 1931, and some graduate work about the year 1934.
Mr. Tavenner. How are you employed now ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Flory. Sir, I refuse to answer that question on the following
grounds: First, on the basis of the fourteenth, fifteenth, and nine-
teenth amendments to the U.S. Constitution, which, in the reasonmg
87845—62 7
1324 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
of any reasonable historian, would indicate by history that there has
been a conspiracy against people of African descent to violate Abra-
ham Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation and to make null and
void these amendments, and therefore, in a real sense, challenges the
actual legality of the existence not only of this body but of the Con-
gress itself.
My second reason is on the grounds of the first amendment to the
U.S. Constitution, which I am sure all of you are familar with, and
my third reason is the fifth amendment, with which, again, I am sure
all of you are familiar.
I also feel that the cormnittee in the context of the thing that I have
said doesn't really have a legislative purpose.
(Counsel conferred with the witness.)
Mr. Flory. And also that the question is irrelevant to the subject
matter that you projected as the purpose of your investigation.
Mr. ScHERER. You were asking the question as to his occupation for
the purposes of identification, were you not, counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner. That and the additional reason that it may prob-
ably throw some light upon his knowledge of the subject under in-
vestigation here.
Mr. ScHERER. You said you took graduate work at the University
of California ?
Mr. Flory. Yes, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Wliat degrees do you hold ?
Mr. Flory. I hold a bachelor of arts in business administration.
Mr. Tavenner. And I believe I asked you where you were born.
Did I ask you when you were bom ?
(Witness conferred with counsel) .
Mr. Flory. I was born July 4, 1907.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Flory, an investigation of the records of the
clerks' office in the circuit court of Cook County reflects that a person
by the name of Ishmael Flory was a witness in the divorce proceed-
ings of Paul Kobrinsky, also known as Paul Corbin, against Seena P.
Kobrinksy . Were you the Floi*y who was the witness in that case ?
Mr. Flory. Sir and gentlemen, I really don't remember. However,
I will say this: that it was entirely possible, being acquainted with
presumably the gentleman you are referring to, it is quite possible
that I could have performed as is so indicated there.
Mr. Scherer. What year was that. Counsel ?
Mr. Tavenner. The year was 1944, February 11, 1944.
Mr. Flory. I don't recall it, but, as I said
Mr. Tavenner. Were you living in Chicago in 1944 ?
Mr. Flory. Yes ; I was.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with an attorney by the name
of Jack Freeman, who was the attorney for the plaintiff, according
to the record in this case ?
Mr. Flory. That, too, I do not recall.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Were you acquainted with another witness in that
case, by the name of Kenneth Bom, B-o-r-n ?
Mr Flory. That I refuse to answer for the previous reasons.
Mr. Bruce. Which? That you do not recall? Or that you use
the fifth amendment?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1325
Mr. Flory. No ; all of the reasons that I gave when I first started
out.
Mr. JoHANSEN. Including the fifth amendment?
Mr. Flory. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. I will read you a part of the examination of you
as reported in the record of this case :
By Mr. Freeman :
Are you acquainted, with Paul Corbin or Paul Kobriusky, the plaintiff in this
case?
Answer. I am.
Question. How long have you known him?
Answer. I have known him since December 1941.
Is that a correct statement of your knowledge of Paul Corbin?
Mr. Flory. That is essentially correct, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. How is that ?
Mr. Flory. That is essentially correct, insofar as the knowledge
of a Mr. Corbin in this period.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you first become acquainted with Paul
Corbin?
Mr. Flory. As I recall, we used to have offices in the same building,
and in the building there was a restaurant, and the people in the build-
ing frequently went down to have coffee, coffee and doughnuts, things
like that, and that is the period in which I became acquainted with
Mr. Paul Corbin.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you in the same office with Paul Corbin?
Mr. Flory. We were in the same office at the time that I met him, as
I recall.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat office was that ?
Mr. FoRER. Excuse me. I think there was a misunderstanding,
there. Did you understand that he asked you whether you worked
in the same office with Mr. Corbin ?
Mr. Flory. No. In the same office building. I am sorry.
Mr. Tavenner. You were not employed by the same employer?
Mr. Flory. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. How was Paul Corbin employed at that time ?
Mr. Flory. As I recall, it seemed to me that he was on a staff of a
union. I don't even remember the particular union, by the way.
Mr. Tavenner. You do ? Or do not ?
Mr. Flory. I do not.
Mr. ScHERER. What were you doing at that time ?
Mr. Flory. I was a trade union organizer, myself.
Mr. ScHERER. For what union ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Flory. The International Union of Mine, Mill & Smelter
Workers.
Mr. Ta\^nner. How long were you an international representative
of that union ?
]\Ir. Flory. Approximately 3 to 4 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Beginning when ?
Mr. Flory. About 1941.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the occasion for your becoming ac-
quainted with Paul Corbin ?
1326 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBEN
Mr. Flort. Well, sir, as I say, we were all in the office building
there together, and we used to eat downstairs together. The most
that I can say and the most that I know about Mr. Corbin was that
insofar as white people are concerned, or what we call white people,
Mr. Corbin was among the few who did not condescend with the
race's contempt toward me. I had considerable respect for the gentle-
man, and he was indeed a nice person. That is about the extent of
my acquaintance with him.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you visit him and did he visit you ?
JSIr. Flort. I never visited him, sir.
Mr. Forer. Excuse me, but just to clarify that last question: Did
you mean visit at his home and vice versa ?
Mr. Ta^^nner. The question is: Did you visit Mr. Corbin at liis
home, or did he visit you at your home ?
Mr. Flory. No; we didn't have that kind of a relationship.
Mr. Scherer. I believe you said that Corbin, as a white pei^son, was
not condescending ?
Mr. Flory. Correct.
Mr. Scherer. To members of the colored race ?
Mr. Flory, No ; to me.
Mr. Scherer. Was that at the time he was employed by the Re-
tail, Wliolesale, and Department Store Employees of America as an
organizer ?
Mr, Flory. Sir, as I say, I really don't remember what union he
was working for at the time.
Mr, Scherer, Do you know he was reprimanded by the international
union for threatening to picket Jewish synagogues and for anti-
Semitic activities ?
Mr, Flory. I am not aware of that fact.
Mr, Tavenner. Did you have occasion to visit Paul Corbin in his
office, or he you in your office ?
Mr. Flory. No. The only occasion that we would meet, they have
a common elevator, as you probably know they have in most buildings,
especially those that are in the downtown areas, and he would be
occasionally down in the restaurant with other people who worked
in the building, in a normal way that one may be sitting around eating
and drinking coffee.
Mr. Tavenner. What were the circumstances under which Paul
Corbin procured you as a witness in his divorce proceeding ?
Mr, Flory, As I said, I do not remember with pinpoint accuracy
the details. The only proposition is that I had known Paul, and
he wanted a witness. He had to have somebody who knew him for
a certain period of time, as I understood it, as best I can recall. And
that was the basis upon which I served as whatever it is there.
Mr. Scherer. But you do recall now having acted as a witness for
him, do you not ?
Mr. Flory. I still say, sir, it is a vague matter in my mind. It
happened, as I understand it, over 16 years ago. And frankly speak-
ing, as you recall, in those days we were quite busy winning the war
against Hitler, working night and day, and, as you perhaps would
realize, you would do a lot of things, and some of them may not
necessarily stick with you over the years. And I am not trying to
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1327
give you any song and dance. I don't feel that that is necessary. I
just want you sincerely to know that I do not recall the details of
the divorcement.
Mr. ScHERER. Oh, I understand that. I wasn't asking you with
reference to the details concerning the testimony of the witness.
Merely I was asking you about your appearance as a witness on his
behalf.
Mr. Flory. I have only a vague recollection of that, sir.
Mr. FoRER. Is it fair to say, if I may interject, that if he asked
you, you certainly would have testified ?
JSIr. Flory. Certainly.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, is there any doubt in your mind but what
you did serve as a witness ?
Mr. Flory. I don't express doubt, sir. I simply say that I do not
recall the details.
Mr. Tavenner. You do not recall the details, but you do recall the
fact that you were one of his witnesses ?
Mr. Flory. Vaguely so, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Will you tell the committee, please how you
learned that Mr. Bom, Kenneth Born, was also to be a witness with
you in that case ?
Mr. Flory. How did I learn that Mr. Born was to be a witness in
the case? You have a double question there. How do you know I
knew Mr. Born was going to be a witness? I mean it seems to me
that that is improper to state.
Mr. Tavenner. My question is. How did you know that Mr. Born
was to be a witness in this case with you ? The record shows that he
was a witness.
Mr. Flory. Oh, how did I know he was to be a witness ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Flory. As I said, as a matter of fact, I don't know who the
second witness was, until you just told me. I didn't know that Mr.
Born was the witness. I don't recall the circumstances around the
divorcement.
Mr. Tavenner. But you did know Mr. Bom, did you not?
Mr. Flory. I refuse to answer that for the previous reasons stated ;
namely, the fourteenth, fifteenth, nineteenth, first, and fifth amend-
ments to the U.S. Constitution.
Mr. Tavenner. You knew that Mr. Born was a member of the Com-
munist Party, did you not ?
Mr. Flory. I refuse to answer that, for the same set of reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. At the same time, that is, the time you have testified,
in the period in which you knew Mr. Corbin, you were a member of
the Communist Party, were you not ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Flory. Well, sir, first I object to the question, because I think
this is an irrelevant question. I didn't come here, as I understood
it, to be investigated. Frankly speaking, I have been up in the air
as to why you called me here.
However, again I will submit the same objections; namely, the
fourteenth, the fifteenth, the nineteenth, the first, and the fifth amend-
ments to the U.S. Constitution.
1328 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Tavenner. Was Mr. Paul Corbin known to you to be a member
of the Communist Party when you testified for him in his divorce
proceeding?
Mr. Flory. Sir, I do not know what Mr. Corbin's views were, what
his political thinking was.
Mr. JoHANSEN. The question did not go to his views or his political
thinking.
Mr. FoRER. He is answering the question. He intends to, anyway.
Give him a chance.
Mr. Flory. I did not know what his political thinking was, sir.
As I said, I have not seen Mr. Corbin, I don't suppose, in 14, 15, or
16 years. I don't know that Mr. Corbin had any thoughts at all,
frankly speaking, beyond sitting over the coffee cup and perhaps
cracking a joke, or something like that. I certainly am not in a posi-
tion to tell you Mr. Corbin's views. Again I repeat : The only thing
that I can say about him is that in the matter of human relations, the
fellow was a nice, noncondescending white person.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, will you answer my question, please? You
have gone all around the periphery, but avoided answering the ques-
tion.
Mr. Flory. I do not know, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. The question of counsel was whether at the time you
acted as a witness for him in his divorce case he was a member of the
Communist Party.
Mr. Flory. Well, sir, if I can be any more simple, I do not know, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. My question was, Did you ever know Paul Corbin
to be a member of the Communist Party ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Flory. I have no knowledge of it, really.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you ever go to a Communist Party meeting with
him?
Mr. Flory. I think that that question is irrelevant, sir, and if you
direct me to answer it, I will again stand upon
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Flory. I have no knowledge sir, of Mr. Corbin ever having at-
tended any meeting. I have no knowledge on the subject.
Mr. ScHERER. You can answer this: Did you ever attend a Com-
munist Party meeting with Corbin ?
Mr. FoRER. The witness just said he never attended any meeting
with Mr. Corbin.
Mr. ScHERER. He did not say that. He said he had no knowledge.
Mr. Flory. Well, sir, I never attended any meeting with Mr. Cor-
bin. I told you I didn't know anything about the man beyond the
occasions when he was in the same building.
Mr. JoHANREN. But evidently you knew something about him, or
enough about him, that you qualified as a witness for him in the divorce
case. Ts that correct ?
ISfr. Flory. I had known Mr. Corbin a number of years, and as I
understood it — I don't know that much about the legal procedure
involving divorces — as I imderstood it, he wanted a witness. And I
would do that for anybody that I had known for as long as I had
known him.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1329
Mr. FoRER. Excuse me. Wliat was the nature of this witness ? Just
on Paul Corbin's residence in Illinois ?
Mr. Tavenner. The length of time he knew him and whether he
had lived separately from his wife.
Mr. FoRER. Do you want to ask him whether he knew Mr. Corbin's
wife?
Mr. Ta\t3nner. No.
Mr. Bruce Did you ever know anyone by the name of Gertrude
Cox?
Mr. FuoRY. It seems that Mrs. Cox was working in one of the offices
in the same building, sir, and I laiew her only in the context that I have
described to you about Mr. Corbin. She was in the building, and the
eating place was downstairs, and occasionally she, too, would come
in to eat. Now, beyond that, I know nothing about her.
Mr. ScHERER. You knew that Corbin subsequently married her?
Mr. Flory. I knew that. I had heard that, anyway.
Mr. Bruce. Did you know her as a member of the Communist
Party?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Flory. Sir, I have no information, really, whether she was a
member of the Conmaunist Paity or any other party, sir.
Mr. Bruce. Did she ever attend Communist Party meetings where
you were present ?
Mr. Flory. Sir, I don't know what meetings she attended, really.
Mr. Bruce. Did she ever attend meetings, where you were present?
Mr. Flory. I don't recall any meetings, any kind of meetings, she
attended, sir.
Mr. Tuck. Any further questions?
^\jiy further questions. Mi-. Tavenner ?
* 4: :(: * * « *
Mr. Tavenner. Where did Corbin reside ?
Mr. Flory. Sir?
Mr. Tavenner. Where did Corbin live ?
Mr. Flory. I don't recall at the moment, frankly speaking.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions,
Mr. Bruce. Do you know a Lou Goldblatt ?
Mr. Flory. A Lou Goldblatt ? Lou Goldblatt ? I have read about
a Lou Goldblatt. I don't know him.
Mr. Bruce. Have you ever met him ?
Mr. Flory. No ; I haven't met him.
Mr. Bruce. J. K. Robertson ?
Mr. Flory. No.
Mr. Bruce. Einar Sell ?
Mr. Flory. Who is that?
Mr. Bruce. Einar Sell.
Mr. Flory. Never heard of the name.
Mr. Bruce. Carl Thorman?
Mr. Flory. Never heard of the name.
Mr. Bruce. Emil Costello ?
Mr. Flory. Never heard of the name.
Mr. Bruce. Fred Blair ?
Mr. Flory. I refuse to answer on the following grounds
Mr. FoRER. On the previous grounds.
1330 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Flory. I shall repeat them.
Mr. FoRER. If you want.
Mr. Flory. On the fourteenth, fifteenth, nineteenth, and the firet
and fifth amendments to the U.S. Constitution.
Mr. ScHERER. What is the nineteenth ?
Mr. Flory. The nineteenth amendment made provision for women
to vote, sir, and American women citizens of African descent had not
been included, as you know, under the fourteenth and the fifteenth
amendments in the matter of voting. And of course they are not too
much included to this day, judging from the reports of the Civil Rights
Commission of the Government of the United States.
Mr. Bruce. Do you know a Joseph Kennedy ?
Mr. Flory. No, I don't know Joseph Kennedy.
Mr. Tavenner. This is Joseph Michael Corwan Kennedy, the one
that we are asking about.
Mr. Tuck. Any further questions, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.
Mr. Bruce. Do you know George Stewart ?
Mr. Flory. I don't know him.
Mr. Tuck. Any further questions ?
You may be excused.
Will you stand and raise your right hand, please ?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before
the Committee on Un-American Activities of the House of Representa-
tives will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God ?
Mr. Born. I do.
TESTIMONY OF KENNETH BOEN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
LAWRENCE SPEISER
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your full name, please, Mr. Born?
Mr. Born. Kenneth Born, B-o-r-n.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please
identify himself for the record ?
Mr. Speiser. I am Lawrence Speiser. I am an attorney with the
American Civil Liberties Union, 1612 I Street NW., Washington.
Mr. Ta^^enner. Are you representing this person as an individual,
or as a representative of the American Civil Liberties Union ?
Mr. Speiser. I am representing him as an attorney ; and as an attor-
ney, I am working for the American Civil Liberties Union. I rep-
resent a good number of people before the committee.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, and eveiy time you give the statement you are
with the American Civil Liberties Union ; so it has given me reason to
believe that possibly it is the American Civil Liberties Union that is
representing the defendant, instead of you, as an attorney.
Mr. Speiser. Well, I am not sure you can dissociate me. I am not
trying to fudge on what my position is. I am representing him be-
cause people have contacted me as an attorney with the American Civil
Liberties Union, requesting me to represent them, and I have agreed
in those cases.
Mr. Tuck. Do you represent the individual witness? Or do you
represent the American Civil Liberties Union ?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1331
Mr. Speiser. Well, when I come in as an attorney, I am represent-
ing the client. My obligation is solely to the client. The initial deci-
sion about representing the witness I make as an employee of the
American Civil Liberties Union.
Mr. Tavenner. Did your client contact the American Civil Liberties
Union to procure employment, or did he contact you for employment ?
Mr. Speiser. He contacted the American Civil Liberties Union to
provide an attorney for him. There is no money relationship, if you
use the term "employment" in that sense.
Mr. ScHERER. I didn't
Mr. Speiser. There is no money relationship. There is no fee re-
tainer involved at all in this.
Mr. Scherer. This is, you mean between him and the American
Civil Liberties Union, or between him and you ?
Mr. Speiser. Either.
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, it is not a case of the American
Civil Liberties Union practicing law ?
Mr. Speiser. No, it is not.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you bom, Mr. Born ?
Mr. Born. Topeka, Kans.; 1911.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere do you now reside ?
Mr. Born. Chicago.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ?
Mr. Born. I am a bartender.
Mr. Bruce. We cannot hear the witness.
Mr. Born. A bartender.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you engaged in that occupation?
Mr. Born. Several years ; 6 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Prior to that time, how were you employed ?
Mr. Born. Well, I had a little restaurant before that a while.
Mr. Tavenner. For how long a period ?
Mr. Born. About a year and a half.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, that takes you back to about 1953 ?
Mr. Born. Around that.
Mr. Tavenner. Prior to that, what was your employment ?
Mr. Born. Well, I had better consult Mr. Speiser, here.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Born. Well, Mr. Counsel, that question I shall have to refuse
to answer, on the grounds, first, that I see nothing in the way of
legislative interest being served by the question ; and secondly, on the
grounds that you are violating my rights under the first and fifth
amendments by such question.
Mr. Tuck. I can't hear the witness.
Mr. Tavenner. He says it violates his rights under the first and
fifth amendments. I do not know whether by that he is refusing to
answer on the grounds of the first and fifth amendments or not.
Mr. Born. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. By the fifth amendment, are you referring to that
clause in the fifth amendment regarding testifying against yourself ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Born. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your edu-
cational training has been, just briefly ?
1332 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Born. Well, I was to high school, 3 years of college, 3 or 4
years.
Mr. Tavenner. Where did you attend college ?
Mr. Born. Washburn College, in Topeka, University
If you had a little water here, it would be a little easier. I don't
want to criticize your arrangements.
(Water was made available to the witness.)
Mr. Born. I said I went to school at Topeka, Kans., Washburn Col-
lege in Topeka, Kans., and the University of Kansas in Lawrence.
Mr. Tavenner. You stated that you have been a bartender for ap-
proximately 6 years. You are actually the owner of an establishment,
are you not?
Mr. Born. Owner, bartender, bouncer.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Born, I have before me a photostatic copy of
a record in the circuit court of Cook County, 111. —
Mr. Born. Pardon me a minute.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. — in the case of Paul Kobrinsky, also known as
Paul Corbin, against Seena P. Kobrinsky, defendant, which was a
divorce proceeding.
In this case there appears the testimony of a person by the name
of Kenneth Born. Were you the Kenneth Born who was a witness in
this case?
Mr. Born. Well, that is the problem. I believe the gentleman next
to you is Mr. Wetterman ; is that right ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Born. Apparently, from the record — ^that is from the circuit
court proceeding, is it?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Born. I must have either appeared or signed a deposition for
him. I don't recall the incident at all.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, possibly this will refresh your recollection:
Question. State your name, please.
Answer. Kenneth Bom.
Question. Where do you live?
Answer. 4438 Jackson, Chicago.
Was that your address ?
Mr. Born. I lived on Jackson at one time.
Mr. Tavenner (reading) :
How long have you known Paul Corbin or Paul Kobrinsky?
Answer. Since the early fall of 1^1.
Does that refresh your recollection ?
Mr. Speiser. May we see that ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
(The document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Speiser. May I turn the pages ?
Mr. Tavenner. Surely.
All right, sir.
Mr. Born. I claim the privilege under the same amendments.
Mr. Bruce. What was the question again. Counsel?
Mr. Tavenner. The question was whether or not this refreshed
his recollection as to his having testified in the case of Paul Corbin ;
and he has taken the fifth amendment.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1333
Mr. JoHANSEN. May the record show that between your question
and the invocation of the fifth amendment, he viewed the document
that you hold.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
I believe before you answered the question, you reviewed with your
counsel the entire document, did you not, showing the record of the
trial ?
Mr, Born. I glanced through it.
Mr. Tavenner. I saw you leafing from page to page. You went
through the entire document, did you not ?
Mr. Born. Well, I couldn't quote it to you.
Mr. Tavenner. You couldn't quote it, but you examined it
carefully ?
Mr. Born. As much as j^ou can
Mr. Tavenner. And after examining it, you refused to answer.
Well, let me ask this. Do you know Mr. Jack Freeman, who was
the attorney for the plaintiff in this case?
Mr. Born. I know Mr. Freeman slightly. That is the lawyer, Jack
Freeman. Yes.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Do j-ou know the other witness in this case, Mr.
Ishmael P. Flory ?
Mr. Born. Well, again, I knew him, somewhat.
Mr. Tavenner. You knew him somewhat ?
Mr. Born. I wasn't a bosom buddy. I know liim, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. How long had you known him before 1944, the date
of this deposition, February the llth, 1944?
Mr. Born. Is that a deposition there ?
Mr. Tavenner. Well, it is testimony taken in the course of this trial.
Mr. Born. I really don't know. I would see him off and on.
Mr. Tavenner. How were you employed at that time ?
Mr. Born. I have to take the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you in the same office building that Mr. Flory
occupied at that time, when he was a representative of the Mine, Mill &
Smelter Workers Union ?
Mr. Born. Tlie same response.
Mr. Bruce. We cannot hear.
Mr. Born. The same thing.
Mr. Tavenner. You mean you refuse to answer on the same
grounds ?
Mr. Born. The same grounds, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Mr. Corbin occupying an office in the same
building in which vou were employed at the time, on Februarv 11,
1944?
Mr. Born. I will decline to answer that on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Mr. Ishmael P. Flory known to you to be a
member of the Communist Party on February 11, 1944?
Mr. Born. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds ;
on the grounds also that it serves no legislative purpose.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Partv on
February 11, 1944?
Mr. Born. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds,
under the fifth amendment.
1334 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBEST
Mr, Tavenner. You were a candidate for city treasurer of Chicago
on April 6, 1943, on the Communist Party ticket, were you not ?
Mr. Born. I decline to answer that question; same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Paul Corbin known to you to be a member of
the Communist Party on February 11, 1944?
Mr. Born. I decline to answer that question ; the same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you state in the course of your testimony in
this case that you had known Paul Corbin since the early fall of 1941 ?
Mr. Born. I believe I already said I decline to comment on that
document.
Mr. ScHERER. How long did you know Paul Corbin prior to 1944 ?
Mr. Born. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Bruce. Do you know Gertrude Cox ?
Mr. Born. I will have to decline that question, on the same grounds.
Mr. Bruce. Do you know Fred Blair ?
Mr. Born. I decline to answer that question, on the same grounds.
Mr. Bruce. Did you know Paul Corbin's first wife?
Mr. Born. I decline to answer that question, on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. I have another question, Mr. Chairman.
Are you a member of the Communist Party now ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Born. I am not.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Have you been a member of the Commmiist Party
at any time within the last 6i/^ years ? That is, since you have had
your business ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Born. No.
Mr. Tavenner. About a year and a half before that you had a
restaurant ?
Mr. Born. A small place, yes.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at any
time while you owned that restaurant ?
Mr. Born. No.
You have got me confused on the time issue, there.
Mr. Tavenner. That would take you back to about 1953. The time
that you first obtained your restaurant, according to your earlier testi-
mony. It would be about in 1953.
Mr. Born. I will have to decline to answer that question on the
grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Bruce. Have you had any contact with Ishmael Floiy within
the last 6 months, telephone or otherwise ?
Mr. Born. I saw him in tlie hallway.
Mr. Bruce. Outside of seeing him in the hallway, here.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Born. I will decline to answer that question.
Mr. Bruce. Has Mr. Corbin contacted you within the last year?
Mr. Born. No.
Mr. Bruce. Has anyone contacted you, outside of this committee
and its staff, on behalf of Mr. Corbin in the past year ?
Mr. Born. No.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1335
Mr. Bruce. Has anybody in any way discussed the case of Mr. Cor-
bin with you, outside of this committee and your counsel, in the last
6 months ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Born. Well, yes.
May I ask for clarification, there: Do you mean prior to the time
that I got this subpena ?
Mr, Bruce. Prior or since.
Mr. Born. And what was your question ?
Mr. Bruce. Let me rephrase the question. Has anyone in any way
tried to influence you as far as your testimony before this committee
is concerned ?
Mr. Born. No. No one.
Mr. Bruce. You wanted some clarification on the last question.
What did you want ?
Mr. Born. Well, you clarified it. I wasn't quite clear whether you
meant had I spoken to another lawyer after I was subpenaed, or not.
Mr. Bruce. Outside of seeking legal counsel, have you been con-
tacted by anybody, outside of this committee, in your attempts to find
legal counsel, concerning this individual named Paul Corbin ?
Mr. Born. No. The answer is "No."
Mr. Bruce. Not even Ishmael Flory ? You invoked the fifth amend-
ment on that question a moment ago.
Mr. Born. I remember that I did. I will stand by that.
Mr. Johansen. In other words, let me see if we are clear in the
record on this. In other words, your answer is "No," with respect to
discussion of this with any person other than the attorney or persons
that you contacted seeking advice. Your answer is "No," that you
were not approached by anyone or did not discuss it, with the excep-
tion that when that question is raised in regard to Mr. Flory, you in-
voked the fifth amendment. Is that correct ?
Mr. Speiser. There were two aspects. One was the contact, and
the other was the question of influence.
Mr. Born. Yes. What was the first question that you asked, ex-
actly, regarding Flory ?
Mr. Johansen. Let me just recapitulate : Have you had any conver-
sations with Mr. Flory at any time during the last 6 months ?
Mr. Born. I will have to decline to answer that question.
Mr. Johansen. Now, did you have any conversation with Mr. Flory
with regard to your appearance here today or with regard to Mr.
Corbin, within the last 6 months ?
Mr. Born. I will have to refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Johansen. Now, have you discussed this case, or your appear-
ance here, or have you been approached by anyone with respect to
your appearance here, or the Corbin matter, other than counsel, in the
last 6 months ?
Mr. Born. To that I will answer "No." I haven't been approached
by anyone.
Mr. Scherer. No one ?
Mr. Born. No one.
Mr. Scherer. Including Flory ?
Mr. Born. "No one" is a general term.
1336 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. JoHAXSEX. Well, I just want the record to show-
Mr. BoRX. Yes. I am not trying to be evasive, here, but
Mr. Bruce. You say "no one," but you invoked the fifth amendment
on the question of Flory. Am I correct ?
Mr. Speiser. I think there may be some confusion. The question is
as to whether he had been contacted by anyone with regard to Mr.
Corbin or liis being called by the committee ?
^Ir. Brfce. No, I asked him directly whether he had had any con-
tact with Mr. Flory.
Mr. Tavex^xer. I though you said "conversation."
Mr. Borx. I thought you said had Mr. Corbin
Mr. Bruce. All right. Let's take it 1-2-3.
Do you know Ishmael Flory ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. BoRX. I answered that previously that I decline to identify that
I know Mr. Flory.
Mr. Johansex. Under the fifth amendment ?
Mr. BoRX. Under the fifth amendment ; correct.
Mr. JoHAxsEX^. Have you had conversation with Mr. Flory regard-
ing Paul Corbin, or any discussion between you and Flory and any-
one regarding Corbin witliin the last 6 months ?
Mr. Borx. I will decline to answer that question under the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Bruce. Let me phrase it another way : With the exception of
preparing your appearance here, and in conversation with attorneys,
have you had any contact or conversation with Mr. Flory in the last 6
months ?
Mr. Borx. The previous question asked before was : Did I have con-
tact with anyone ? Had I been contacted by anyone in connection with
this appearance, except for my legal counsel ? That was the preceding
question. And to that I answered "No." But for this particular
question, I will claim the privilege ; the fifth amendment.
Mr. Johaxsex. In other words, you state a general denial, but you
take the fifth amendment on a specific denial ; is that correct ?
Mr. Speiser. May I address the committee on this ? I recognize that
ordinarily attorneys do not. It seems to me there is a distinction in
the way tlie questions are phrased, which has been the reason for Mr.
Born's answering the way that he has.
As I understand Congressman Johansen's question, to which Mr.
Born answered "No," it was, "Have you been contacted by anyone,"
implying a contact, an initiation of a contact, by someone else ; to which
he answered, "No." And then, with respect to Congressman Bruce 's
question, "Have you had any questions or contact," in the sense of a
contact being an all-embracing term which could go in both direc-
tions, lie claimed the privilege, because you asked with respect to Mr.
Flory.
Mr. Bruce. Have you called Mr. Flory on the telephone within the
past 6 months?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Borx. I will claim the privilege on that question.
Mr. Bruce. Have you discussed this case, the case of Paul Corbin,
or the person of Paul Corbin, within the last 6 months, with a man by
the name of Fred Bassett Blair?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1337
Mr. Speiser. Again, prior to the time he got his subpena ?
Mr. Bruce. Within the last 6 months.
Mr. Speiser. May I pursue it ? Mr. Blair has been out in the hall-
way, you know.
Mr. Bruce. Excluding the visitation in the hall.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Born. No.
Mr. Bruce. Have you and Mr. Flory exchanged notes in regard to
your appearance here, or exchanged ideas as to how you wei'e going
to handle yourself before this committee, since you have received the
subpena ?
Mr. Born. I will have to decline to answer that question, on the
same grounds.
Mr. JoHANSEN. Let me just ask one further question. I am trying
to meet counsel's point, and I am not attempting to entrap you in any
way. I am trying to get the record straight.
Have you, either on your initiation, or on the initiation of any other
person, discussed this case, discussed the pending appearance, or dis-
cussed Mr. Corbin, during the last 6 months, with anyone, outside of
any conversations in the hall today ? And, of course, excluding your
legal counsel, naturally.
Mr. Born. Well, if you were to ask me : have I been approached by
anyone or influenced by anyone regarding my appearance here, or
about Mr. Corbin, in the past 6 months, or for the past 10 years, my
answer would be "No." But so long as the question is phrased as you
have phrased it, then I must take my privilege under the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Tuck. That is aU.
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Tuck. Miss Powell, will you raise your right hand, please ?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Miss Powell. I do.
TESTIMONY OF SEENA POWELL
Mr. Tavenner. Will you please state your name ?
Miss Powell. Seena Powell.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you the first wife of Mr. Paul Corbin ?
Miss Powell. I was.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Miss Powell. Brooklyn.
Mr. Tavenner. Is it Miss Powell ?
Miss Powell. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. In Brooklyn ?
Miss Powell. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Brooklyn ?
Miss Powell. Let's see. Most of my life, I should say.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, where were you born ?
Miss Powell. In Brooklyn.
Mr. Tavenner. And did you live out in the Midwest at one time?
Miss Powell. Well, I did live in Winnipeg for about — well, I can't
say. I am not too sure. About 4 months, I believe. My daughter
1338 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
was bom there. And then I lived in Indiana for about a year and a
half.
Mr. Ta^tenner. Was that before you went to Winnipeg ?
Miss Powell. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Ta\tenner. Did you live in Indiana before you went to Canada ?
Miss Powell. No ; after.
Mr. Ta\^nner. After?
Miss Powell. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Did your family live in Indiana at any time before
you were married ?
Miss Po^VELL. No.
Pardon me. My father lived there, but he was separated from the
family. I don't loiow just how long. And we didn't know he resided
there at that time, but we stopped over.
Mr. Tavenner. When you say "we," to whom do you refer ?
Miss Powell. My mother and brothers. My brothers were musi-
cians, and they were working in Indiana. That is how we got up
there in the first place.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe you were related to your husband, were
you not ?
Miss Powell. We are still related. He is my first cousin.
Mr. Tavenner. Your first cousin. How long did you live in
Canada ?
Miss Powell. Well, about
Well, let's see. Probably we got there in October, and she was
bom July 6. I brought her back to Indiana when she was about, let's
see, 2 months old, I think, about that. I left Winnipeg and moved
to Indiana.
Mr. Tavenner. Then you were in Canada about how long ? About
how many months or years ?
Miss Powell. About 5 months.
Mr. Tavenner. About 5 months. Did you live at the home of
your husband's family while there ?
Miss Powell. Yes. I was in West Kildonan.
Mr. Tavenner. What is the name of Mr. Corbin's father?
Miss Powell. I don't remember.
Mr. Tavenner. How many brothers and sisters
Miss Powell. I will tell you why, sir ; because I wasn't acquainted
with that family. You see, it is just that I went there on a vacation,
and that is the first time I met them — my relatives.
Mr. Tavenner. And your mother was a sister of Mr. Corbin's
mother. Wliat was your mother's maiden name?
Miss Powell. Elizabeth.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, but what was her last name ?
Miss Powell. I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, what was your name before marriage?
Miss Powell. Powell. I thought you meant her maiden name.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, I did.
Miss Powell. I don't know her maiden name.
Mr. Tavenner. You do not know your mother's maiden name ?
Miss Powell. No, I do not.
Why?
Mr. Tavenner. Wasn't it Pavlov ?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBDST 1339
Miss Powell. Pavlov ? I don't think so. I think it was Parlo, or
something like that.
Mr. Tavenner. P-a-v-1-o-v?
Miss Powell. Well, I don't know. There is a sister to my mother.
She was named Parlov. I don't know what my mother called herself.
Mr. Tavexner. Now, t©ll me the names of the brothers and sisters
of Paul Corbin.
Miss Powell. Well, he has a brother Sid.
Mr. Tavenner. Sidney. He was bom in New York, was he not?
Miss Powell. Yes. And while an infant, he was taken to Winni-
peg and became a Canadian citizen. He has a sister Irene and — let's
see. Who is the other one ?
ISIr. Scherer. Why don't you refresh her recollection ?
Mr. Tavenner. Freda ?
Miss Powell. That is it.
Mr. Tavenner. Who married
Miss Powell. A doctor.
Mr. Tavenner. A doctor by the name of Shankman, Dr. Irvin
Shankman ?
Miss Powell. Irvin Shankman.
Mr. Tavenner. Any others ?
Miss Powell. No, just two sisters and a brother.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know the names of any of the uncles of
Paul Corbin?
Miss Powell. Uncles?
Mr. Tavenner Yes. Did he have an uncle?
Miss Powell. I don't know any of his side, but I know of his
mother's brother, my uncle, Ben Pavlov. He calls himself Ben Pavlov.
There is a Phillip Pavlov. And that is about all.
Mr. Tavenner Then there is no doubt about what your mother's
maiden name was, if her brothers were named Pavlov ?
Miss Powell. Probably. I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you know a person by the name of Mike
Corbin?
Miss Powell. Mike Corbin? No.
Mr. Tavenner. Or Kobrinsky?
Miss Powell. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you know of the names of any of Paul
Corbin's uncles on his father's side?
Miss PoAVELL. No. I don't know any of his father's relatives.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you in Canada at any time other than the 4
or 5 months' period that you just told us about?
Miss Powell. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. When?
Miss Powell. Oh, golly. Probably the end of 1932 or 1933. I
went there on a vacation. Around that time. I am not sure,
Mr. Tavenner. Did you visit the Corbin family at that time ?
Miss Powell. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere were they living?
Miss Powell. In West Kildonan. That was the first time I had
seen him.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere is that?
87845 — 62 8
1340 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Miss Powell. West Kildonan.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell the name, please?
Miss Powell. You mean of the town?
Mr. Taat:nner. Yes.
Miss Powell. W-e-s-t K-i-1-d-o-n-a-n, I believe.
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you there on that occasion?
Miss Powell. Two months, I believe.
Mr. Ta\"enner. Were you there at any other time?
Miss Powell. No.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether or not
you learned, while you were on any of these visits to the family of Mr.
Corbin, that any member of the family was a member of or affiliated
with the Young Communist League of Canada ?
Miss Powell. Not tliat I know of. I am not sure.
Mr. Scherer. Wliat was that answer? She was not sure?
Mr. Ta-\t:nner. Not sure?
Miss Powell. I have never heard any of it mentioned.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever hear Paul Corbin state that he had
been a member of the Young Communist League of Canada ?
Miss Powell. No, I haven't. Never.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. When were you and your husband separated?
Miss Powell. Well, this has been going on and off. I can't re-
member that exactly.
Wlien did I leave liim? I left him in Winnipeg, to tell you the
truth, and I moved to Indiana, when we weren't getting on. I took
the baby and went to Indiana.
j\Ir. Tavenner. Then you came back together ?
Miss Powell. Well, he came.
Mr. Tavenner. And then did all of you go to New York and make
your home there ?
Miss Powell. No, I lived with my parents. And then after a while
I believe he rented a small apartment, and we tried again living
together.
Mr. Tavenner. In New York?
Miss Powell. In Indiana.
Mr. Tavenner. In Indiana?
Miss Powell. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. But did you live together at any time in New York
City?
Miss Powell. Most of the time with my mother.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, in other words, you and your husband lived
together in your mother's home in New York ?
Miss Powell. That is right. Most of the time.
Mr. Tavenner. Then you separated ?
Miss Powell. Yes, we would separate, and he M-ould leave. I don't
know where. And then he would come back.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, did you get out an arrest warrant for him in
New York and try to have it served in Rockford, 111.?
Miss Powell. Illinois? For what?
Mr. Tavenner. How is that?
Miss Powell. I don't know of
Mr. Tavenner. Well, did you swear out an arrest warrant for your
husband ?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1341
Miss Powell. I don't remember.
Mr. ScHERER. For failure to provide ?
Miss Powell. Oh, yes. But I think I went to Domestic Relations
and I also went to the Red Cross to try to get support. That was
during the war.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you complain to the Court of Domestic Relations
that he was not supporting you and your child ?
Miss Powell. That is right.
Mr. SciiERER. And while you were there, while the court took juris-
diction over that complaint, you signed a warrant for his arrest for
failure to provide for you and the child ?
Miss Powell. Yes.
Mr. ScHERER. Do you remember what year that was ?
Miss Powell. Xo, I don't.
Mr. Scherer. How long had you been separated at the time you
went to complain to the Court of Domestic Relations?
Miss Powell. Well, let me think.
Mr. Scherer. Approximately.
Miss Powell. To tell you the truth, I really had him brought up
on charges for beating me. I don't like to bring up my personal life.
It is very embarrassing. And also for nonsupport.
Mr. Scherer. Two charges?
Miss Powell. Yes. And he gave his side of the story. I can't
exactly remember mine. But they held him for 15 days at the Ray-
mond Street jail.
Mr. Scherer. Did you hear that, Frank ?
Mr. Taa'enner. No, I did not.
Mr. Scherer. She says he served 15 days in the Raymond Street
jail.
Was that for his beating you ?
Miss Powell. That must be it.
Mr. Scherer. Wliere is the Raymond Street jail ?
Miss Powell. In Brooklyn.
Mr. Tavenxer. Do vou remember about when that was, what year?
Miss Powell. Xo. Maybe 1938. I don't know; 1937 or 1938.
Mr. Tavenner. Where were you married ?
Miss Powell. In the Brooklyn Municipal Building.
Mr. Tavexxer. And you went from there to Winnipeg, did you?
Miss Powell. Xo. He went. I remained.
Mr. Tavexxer. He went?
Miss Powell. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he have difficulties with the Immigi'ation au-
thorities in getting back into this country ?
Miss Powell. That I don't know.
Mr. Tavexxer. Then while your husband was up in Winnipeg, you
went up. did you not ?
Miss Powell. Well, my main purpose was to liave my baby there,
because my uncle was a doctor. He took care of me. I didn't want to
go to a charitable hospital, so I went there.
Mr. Tavexxer. Then you came back from Winnipeg?
Miss Powell. Right to Indiana.
Mr. Tavexxer. To Elkhart, Ind. ?
Miss Powell. Elkhart, yes.
1342 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Tavenner. Then from Elkhart, Inch, back to Winnipeg?
Miss Powell. I moved to South Bend for a while. And from there
I went back to Brooklyn with my mother and my daughter.
Mr. TA%T:]srNER. Will you tell the committee whether or not Paul
Corbin was a member of the Communist Party at any time, to your
knowledge ?
Miss Powell. I don't know. I know nothing of — I don't know
anything of his political doings. I know nothing of his political do-
ings. I never did.
Sir. Tavenner. Did you ever see a Communist Party card ?
Miss Powell. A what ?
Mr. Tavenner. A Communist Party card, the membership card ?
Miss Powell. No. I wouldn't even know what one looks like. I
know nothing of that.
Mr. ScHERER. When was the last time you saw your former husband
or had any contact with him ?
Miss Powell. Well, let's see.
Mr. ScHERER. Approximately.
Miss Powell. He called me, I think 2 years ago. Not this past
summer. The summer before. He wanted to discuss my daughter.
He wanted to discuss things about my daughter. He felt that she
ought to settle down, and things like that, and thought I could assist
him in showing him a way.
Mr. ScHERER. That is the last time you saw him ?
Miss Powell. That is all. Just about 5 minutes. Then he called
again, and I told him not to annoy me.
Mr. Bruce. When did he call again ?
Miss Powell. He usually called at 4 a.m. in the morning.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Tuck. No questions.
Miss Powell. Through ?
Mr. Ta\^nner. Yes.
Mr. Tuck. You may be excused.
We will meet in the morning at 10 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 5 p.m., Monday, November 27, 1961, the committee
was recessed, to reconvene at 10 a.m., Tuesday, November 28, 1961.)
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 28, 1961
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D.C.
EXECUTIVE SESSION ^
The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities
met, pursuant to call, at 10 :30 a.m., in Room 219, Old House Office
Building, Hon. William M. Tuck, presiding.
Subcommittee member present : Representative William M. Tuck,
of Virginia.
Committee members also present : Representatives August E. Johan-
sen, of Michigan, and Donald C. Bruce, of Indiana.
Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., director; Alfred
M. Nittle, counsel; John C. Walsh, co-counsel; Neil E. Wetterman and
Raymond T. Collins, investigators.
Mr. Tuck. The subcommittee will be in order.
Mr. Costello, will you stand and raise your right hand please ?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Cosi^ELLO. I do.
TESTIMONY OF EMIL COSTELLO
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name please.
Mr. Costello. Emil Costello.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Costello, it is our practice to advise witnesses
who are unaccompanied by counsel that they are entitled to counsel
if they desire it.
Mr. Costello. I can't afford it. I don't need one.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you reside ?
Mr. Costello. North Hollywood, Calif.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Costello. I was born in Kenosha, Wis., 1908.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, briefly what
your formal educational training has been ?
Mr. Costello. Junior high school.
Mr. Ta\^nner. T\niat has been your principal profession or trade
or occupation ?
Mr. Costello. At the moment ?
1 Released by the committee and ordered to be printed.
1343
1344 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Ta\t)nner. In the last 15 or 20 years.
Mr. CosTELLO. An employee of the Sewing Machine Co. and one of
its subsidiaries, the Automatic Pencil Sharpener, a short time with
the Litton Industries, International Expediters and Universal Enter-
prises, which is one and the same company, and the past 7 years
employment agencies as an employee and as an operator.
Mr. Tavenner. How are you now employed ?
Mr. CosTELLO. I am self-employed in an employment agency known
as Emil Costello & Associates.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Costello, the purpose of calling you here is
to ask your assistance in the study of the activities of an individual
who occupies a position of importance in the national interests. This
individual's name is Paul Corbin. We have had testimony from
quite a few witnesses regarding his activities in Rockf ord, 111. ; Janes-
ville, Milwaukee, and other places in Wisconsin; and in Chicago.
Information has come to us that you were in a position at the time,
back in the 1940's, when you had information relating to the activities
of this individual. For instance, a witness by the name of Joseph
Michael Kennedy advised that he discussed with you the question of
whether or not Paul Corbin should be taken into a local group of
the Communist Party and that on one occasion he suggested to you
that he should not be taken in.
The indication in the testimony also was that, at a later date, you
had special information regarding Paul Corbin's affiliation with the
Communist Party. So I think that is a fair introduction to the ques-
tions that I want to ask you.
First of all, let me ask you: Was Paul Corbin a member of the
Communist Party to your knowledge ?
Mr. Costello. I refuse to answer the question on the grounds that
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, I am disappointed that you are taking that
position, but having talked with you this morning, I am not surprised
that you have taken it.
I want to say to you that I believe, maybe eventually, j'ou may
change your viewpoint; at least I hope you do, I think I under-
stand from some information which I have received regarding you
and which did not emanate from you that you have had a pretty
rugged time since you testified in the Christoffel case, and that is
true, is it not ?
Mr. Costello. I don't recall which case it was. It was before the
grand jury in 1947.
Mr. Tavenner. That was known as the Christoffel grand jury wasn't
it?
Mr. Costello. I don't know. It may have or it may not have, I
don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. Where was that grand jury held ?
Mr. Costello. Here in Washington, D.C.
Mr. Tavenner. You did not take advantage of the fiftli amendmenr
at that time. You told facts as you knew them.
Mr. Cestello. I don't recall. No, I took the fifth amendment.
Mr. Tavenner. Then did you testify openly at a later time?
Mr. Costello. No, sir.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBEST 1345
Mr. Tavenner. I had been advised that you made a break with
the Communist Party at that time and that, you had not been a mem-
ber of the Communist Party at any time since. Isn't that right ?
Mr. CosTELLO. I would like you to ask me a question please.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you break with the Communist Party along
about the time you testified ?
Mr. CosTELLO. I refuse to answer the question on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner, Is it not true, Mr. Costello, that after that date
your suffered in employment relationships that you had as a result
of information coming to your employer from various sources that you
had, at one time, been a member of tlie party ?
Mr. Costello. I refuse to answer the question on the grounds that
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Would you step outside for a moment ?
(Witness excused.)
Mr. Tuck, You may come back in, Mr. Costello.
Mr, Taa^enner. I am going to say to you, Mr. Costello, what I liave
said to one other witness. This particular witness* name was Robert,
Rossen. Mr. Rossen took the fifth amendment before the committee,
and I was convinced that it was under circumstances whicli indicated
he could not make up his mind whether he sliould or should not give the
committee the information it desired. I said to him, in substance, "In
all probability the time will come when you will see matters differ-
ently. If that time comes, get in touch with us and the facilities of
this committee will be here and you can say what you want to say."
He left, and we did not hear from him until 2 years later when we
were in the middle of hearings in New York City. He came to me at
the hotel one night and he said something like this, "I have had time
to think this matter over. Many things have happened since the time
that I appeared before your committee, and I feel I would like to co-
operate," and he did, fully. I just want to tell you the same thing,
that we hope that the time may come when you will see the situation
differently from what you do now. I am not going to attempt to pres-
sure you in any way, now or at any time in the future, to change your
mind but I hope you will.
Mr. Chairman, that is all I have to say.
Mr. Tuck. All I can say is that the director of the committee has
expressed what I believe to be the sentiment of the members of the
committee and certainly it is the sentiment of the members of this
subcommittee.
Mr. Bruce. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Tavenner. Suppose we bring the hearing to a close now and
let the reporter retire if you wish to discuss something with the
witness.
Mr. Tuck. The hearing will now be recessed.
(Whereupon, at 11 :15 a.m., Tuesday, November 28, 1961, the sub-
committee was recessed, subject to the call of the Chair.)
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
THURSDAY, MARCH 15, 1962
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
COMMIITEE ON Un-AmERICAN ACTIVITIES,
Washington, D.C.
EXECUTIVE SESSION ^
The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met,
pursuant to call, at 4 :05 p.m., in Room 226, Old House Office Building,
Washington, D.C, Hon. Clyde Doyle (chairman of the subcommittee)
presiding.
Subcommittee members present: Representatives Clyde Doyle, of
California, and Gordon H. Scherer, of Ohio.
Committee members also present : Representatives August E. Johan-
sen, of Michigan ; Donald C. Bruce, of Indiana ; and Henry C. Schade-
burg, of Wisconsin.
Staff members present : Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., director; Alfred M.
Nittle, counsel ; Jolin C. Walsh, co-counsel ; George H. Lynch, consul-
tant ; and Neil E. Wetterman, investigator.
Mr. Doyle. The subcommittee will come to order, please.
The chairman of the full committee, the Honorable Francis E. Wal-
ter, has named a subcommittee, under date of March 15, 1962 :
Maech 15, 1962.
To : Mr. Frank S. Tavenner,
Director,
House Committee on Un-American Activities.
Pursuant to the provisions of the law and the rules of this Committee, I
hereby appoint a subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities, con-
sisting of Representatives Clyde Doyle, as Chairman, William M. Tuck and
Gordon H. Scherer, as associate members, to conduct a hearing in Washington,
D.C, on Thursday, March 15, at 3:30 p.m., on subjects under investigation by
the Committee and take such testimony on said day or succeeding days, as It
may deem necessary.
Please make this action a matter of Committee record.
If any Member indicates his inability to serve, please notify me.
Given under my hand this 15th day of March, 1962.
/s/ Francis E. Walter
Francis E. Walter, Chairman,
Committee on Un-American Activities.
Messrs. Doyle and Scherer, a quorum of the subcommittee consti-
tuted by this notice, are present, and we are glad there are also present
Messrs. Johansen, Bruce, and Schadeberg.
We are glad to have you here with us.
Are you ready, Counsel ?
1 Released by the committee and ordered to be printed.
1347
1348 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Will Mrs. Wickstrom come forward, please.
Mr. Doyle. Will you please raise your right hand, Mrs. Wickstrom?
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Wickstrom. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ESTHER WICKSTROM, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
JOSEPH FORER
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please ?
Mrs. Wickstrom. Esther Wickstrom.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your last name, please ?
Mrs. Wickstrom. W-i-c-k-s-t-r-o-m.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you kmdly raise your voice? It is a little
hard for us to hear in this room.
It is noted that you are accompanied by counsel. Will counsel please
identify himself for the record ?
Mr. FoRER. My name is still Joseph Forer of Washington, D.Q
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere do you reside, Mrs. Wickstrom ?
Mrs. Wickstrom. 920 West Argyle Street, Chicago.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Wickstrom, the committee's investigation has
disclosed that you were secretary of the Wisconsin Coimiiunist Party
in the year 1948. The committee's investigation also reflects that in
1948 while you were secretary of the Wisconsin Communist Party there
was issued a Communist Party transfer card for Paul Corbin and a
transfer card for his wife, whose name was Gertrude Cox Corbin, from
Milwaukee to San Francisco, Calif., and at that time Corbin's dues
were reportedly paid for March 1948.
I ask you whether you issued or caused to be issued the transfer
cards which I have referred to, or either of them ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Wickstrom. I do not know of any such thing.
Mr. Tavenner. Excuse me. I could not hear.
Mrs. Wickstrom. I do not know of any such thing.
Mr. Tavenner. You do not know of any such thing ?
Mrs. Wickstrom. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you issue Communist Party transfer cards
during the year 1948 to any individuals ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Wickstrom. I shall refuse to answer on the basis of my rights
under the first amendment and my privilege under the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Were you acquainted with Paul Corbin ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Wickstrom. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with him during the year
1948?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Wickstrom. I don't think so.
Mr. FoRER. Did you hear what she said ?
Mr. Tavenner. I am not sure.
Mrs. Wickstrom. I don't think so.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBEST 1349
Mr. Tavenner. You do not think so. When did you first become
acquainted with him?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I am not certain of the dates but it was during
the—
Mr. Tavenner. We can't hear you.
Mrs. WicKSTROM. When I was working in the union office.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat union office ?
Mrs. Wickstrom. The CIO Council.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wliere?
Mrs. Wickstrom. In Milwaukee.
Mr. Tavenner. In Milwaukee ?
Mrs. Wickstrom. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Paul Corbin living in Milwaukee at that
time?
Mrs. Wickstrom. I believe so.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, what was the period of time in which you
were employed in the union office in Milwaukee ?
Mrs. Wickstrom. About late 1936 or early 19.37 until early 1943,
I believe.
Mr. Tavenner. Excuse me. Will you repeat that, please?
Mrs. Wickstrom. I think it was late in 1936 or early 1937 to the
beginning of 1943.
Mr. TA^^NNER. And did you know Paul Corbin at a date later than
1943?
Mrs. Wickstrom. I don't recall having seen him. I don't know.
Mr. Ta\tenner. You don't recall ?
Mrs. Wickstrom. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you continue to live in Milwaukee after 1943 ?
Mrs. Wickstrom. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. And how long did you continue living there?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Wickstrom. About 1950.
Mr, Tavenner. Were you the State secretary for Wisconsin of the
Communist Party in 1948 ?
Mrs. Wickstrom. I refuse to answer for the same reasons I said
earlier.
Mr. Ta\'enner. How were you employed in 1948 ?
Mrs. Wickstrom. I refused to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wliat local of the miion was it that you were a
member of, or that you were employed by in 1943 ?
Mrs. Wickstrom. You mean until 1943 ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mrs. Wickstrom. I indicated earlier, the CIO Council.
Mr. Tavenner. Oh, the CIO Council.
Mrs, Wickstrom. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. If I were to tell you that Mr. Corbin did not live
at Milwaukee until after he got out of the Army in 1945, would that
refresh your recollection as to the period of time that you actually
knew him, in Milwaukee?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. Wickstrom. No, I don't believe so.
Mr. TA^^ENNER. If I am correct in stating that he did not move to
Milwaukee until after he got out of the Army, you would necessarily
1350 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
be wrong about having known him when he lived in Milwaukee in
1943 ?
Mr. FoRER. Excuse me, Mr. Tavenner. She was not sure he lived in
Milwaukee during that period. She can explain
Mr. Tavenner. Well, let her explain that.
Mr. FoRER. I am asking you to give her a chance to explain how she
knew him.
Mr. Tavenner. I am giving her every chance in the world to ex-
plain. That is why I am asking if it would refresh her recollection.
Mr. FoRER. She said it wouldn't.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, I am trying to help her.
Mr. FoRER. Well, I don't think you are being so helpful.
What is the question now ?
Mr. Tavenner. My question now is : After I have told you that he
did not move to Milwaukee until after he got out of the Marine Corps
in 1945, aren't you mistaken about having known him there in 1943?
Let me state it another way. Doesn't that indicate to you that you
were mistaken, that you must have known him after 1945 '?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Forer. Can I explain one thing? She knew him during the
period that she worked at the CIO Council. She is not sure that she
knew him as late as 1943 when she left the council. Did Corbin live in
Milwaukee or work in Milw^aukee between 1937 and 1943? Because
she is not sure that she knew him up to 1943. She knew him between
1937 or late 1936 and 1943, but she is not sure how late she knew him
or how early she knew him.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me ask you this : What were the circumstances
under which you became acquainted with Paul Corbin ?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. Through contact through the union office. As I
remember it, he in one capacity or another worked in or came into that
office on frequent occasions. Other than that, I wouldn't know.
Mr. Tavenner. Over how long a period of time, do you think?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. Possibly a year or two, but I don't recall the exact
time.
Mr. Tavenner. And what was his employment during that period
of time, that year or two ?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I don't remember his official capacity. I don't
know. I think he was an organizer for one of the unions, but I don't
remember the exact position.
i\Ir. Tavenner. Was he known to you to be a member of the Commu-
nist Party ?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. Not to my knowledge. I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. You don't know. Did you at any time see his trans-
fer card ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I have no knowledge of anything.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, answer the question. Did you see at any time
a transfer card issued to him ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I have no knowledge of any such thing.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Gertrude Cox, the wife of
Paul Corbin?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1351
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I think I met her on a couple of occasions in
casual contacts.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien did you first meet Mrs. Corbin ?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I don't remember the date, but it was in connec-
tion with Mr. Corbin. So I suppose it was about the same period.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that also in the period before 1943 ?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I would assume so. I don't recall exactly.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, did you meet her after 1943 ?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. Not that I know of.
Mr. Tavenner. Was she known to you to be a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. Not that I know of. I don't know.
Mr. TA^'ENNER. What were the circumstances imder which you first
met Mrs. Corbin ?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I don't recall.
Mr. Tavenner. Where were Mr. and Mrs. Corbin living at that
time?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I don't know. Their address, you mean ?
Mr. Ta\'enner. Well, was it in Milwaukee ?
Mrs, WiCKSTROM. I am not certain. I don't know, really.
Mr. Tavenner. You knew Mrs. Corbin by the name of Gertrude?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I met her, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you know her before marriage to Corbin?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. No. At least I don't believe so.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, Mrs. Wickstrom, actually Mr. and Mi-s. Corbin
were not married until in 1944, when he was still in the Marine Corps,
and he and his wife did not come back to Wisconsin mitil in 1945.
Therefore, if you knew them as husband and wife, it must have been
af t-er 1945. Does that not refresh your recollection ?
]Mr. FoRER. Are you sure you have got the dates right for the time
you were employed by the CIO Council ?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. Yes.
Mr. FoRER. Are you sure you didn't work for them later than 1943 ?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. No.
Mr. FoRER. No, you are not sure ?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. No, I didn't.
(Witness conferred with comisel.)
Mr. FoRER. Mr. Tavenner, she wants to make a further explanation
on that Gertrude Cox issue.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I had met Gertrude Cox, but whether they were
married or not, I do not know. As I think back on it, I just took for
granted it was Mr. and Mrs., but I am not certain that that was so at
that time. I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. You mean you considered them as man and wife,
but you don't know whether they were?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM I don't know. They were associating together.
I don't know whether they were married. I have no knowledge
Mr. Tavenner. Well, now, Mrs. Wickstrom, certainly if you were
acquainted with Mr. and Mrs. Corbin, it must have been that Mrs.
Corbin was going by the name of Mrs. Corbin.
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I don't know about that. I mean it was a long
time ago. I don't remember whether it was just that — whether they
1352 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
were married at the time or not, I don't know. They were going to-
gether, but I don't know whether they were married.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, you know that they did become married,
don't you?
Mrs, WiCKSTROM. I heard about it, I believe.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Well, that could not have been until after 1944, and
she did not come l)ack until after 1945. So therefore your contacts
with the Corbins must have been after 1945. Don't you agree?
Mrs. WicKSTROM. I may have run across them, but my contact with
them w^as from the union office.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Now, when did you tell me that your work in the
CIO Comicil ended ? I am not certain that you did tell me, but when
was it?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I think I said 1943.
Mr. Tavenner. 1943. Wliat were you doing in 1944?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I refuse to answer on the grounds I previously
cited.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you become a secretary of the Communist
Party for Wisconsin in 1944?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I refuse to answer on the previous grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. "When were you married? Let me ask you that.
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. Wlien was I married ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I was married in 1935. That was the first
marriage.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat name did you use in 1948 ?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. My maiden name.
Mr. Tavenner. And what was your maiden name?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. Esther Eisenscher.
Mr. Tavenner. E-i-s-e-n-s-c-h-e-r?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. You atttended the 16th National Communist Party
Convention, from February 9 to 12, 1957, in New York, didn't you ?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I refuse to answer on the grounds I stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. Any questions from the committee ?
Mr. Scherer. You don't deny that you issued a Communist Party
transfer card to the Corbins, do you ?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I said previously I have no knowledge of any
such thing.
Mr. Scherer. You have no knowledge ? You would not deny that
you issued it, would you ?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I don't know. I have said all I can say on that.
Mr. Ta\T3Nner. I would like to ask one further question.
Aside from the question as to whether or not you issued a transfer
card for Paul Corbin and also for his wife, did you in 1948 know-
that Paul Corbin had been a member of the Communist Party?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. To the best of my knowledge, I didn't.
Mr. Ta\tenner. My question is Avhetlier in 1948 you knew Paul
Corbin had ever been a member of the Communist Party, meaning at
any time.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1353
Mi-s. WiCKSTROM. To the best of my knowledge, I did not.
Mr. Tavenner. Had a Communist Party card been issued to Paul
Corbin at any time, to your knowledge?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I have no such knowledge.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Paul Corbin's name appear on a list of mem-
bers of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I have no such knowledge.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Did Paul Corbin to your knowledge, or according
to information furnished vou, pav dues at any time to the Communist
Party?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I have no such knowledge.
Mr. Taatsnner. I did not ask you if you had the knowledge. I said
information.
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I have no such information.
Mr. Ta%tenner. Was Gertrude Cox Corbin ever a member of the
Communist Party, to your knowledge ?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I have no such knowledge.
Mr, Tavenner. Did you have the information that she paid dues
to the Communist Party ?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. No : no such knowledge.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have information to that effect?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Who collected the dues for the Communist Party
in Milwaukee in 1948 ?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I refuse to answer, on the grounds previously
given.
Mr. Tavenner. That is all.
Mr. JoHANSEN. Mr. Tavenner, did you ask at an earlier time if she
had any recollection of whether she had issued a transfer card? I
wonder if we can have the reporter read back the answer, wliich I be-
lieve was that she had no recollection or no knowledge. I would like
to have the answer read back.
(The question and answer referred to were read by the reporter.)
Mr. JoHANSEN. Were you in a position whereby had such a thing
occurred, you would have had knowledge of it?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
given.
Mr. Schadeberg. When was the last time that you saw Paul Corbin?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I don't recollect.
Mr. Schadeberg. How many years ago?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. Probably 10 or 15 years, I don't know.
Mr. Schadeberg. Have you had any contact with him since that
time?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. No.
Mr. Schadeberg. Either directly or indirectly ?
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. No.
Mr. JoHANSEN. It is still your insistence that your acquaintance both
with Corbin and the man who was or became his wife
Mr. FoRER. The woman.
Mr. JoHANSEN. The woman. Pardon me. The woman who was or
subsequently became his wife — that acquaintance was all prior to 1943 ?
1354 TESTEVIOISrY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBrN"
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. To the best of my knowledge.
Mr. JoHANSEN. And yet as I understand the staff director's state-
ment of the facts, neither Corbin nor his wife were in Milwaukee prior
to 1943 ; is that correct, or is it not, Mr. Tavenner ?
JSIr. FoRER. That is not correct.
Mr. Tavenner. He did not live in Milwaukee prior to 1943.
May I ask you this : Did you at any time attend a meeting, a Com-
munist Party meeting, in which Paul Corbin was present?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. Any further questions, gentlemen ?
Mr. Bruce. At any time did you consider Paul Corbin to be imder
the discipline of the Communist Party ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. I don't know what you mean by such a question.
Mr. Bruce. Would you consider that Paul Corbin was under the
direction of the Communist Party at any time ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mrs. WiCKSTROM. No such thought ever occurred to me.
Mr. Doyle. Is there any other question ?
Thank you very much.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Mr. Perry E. Wilgus, please come forward.
Mr. Doyle, Will you please rise and be sworn ?
Do you swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Wilgus. I do.
TESTIMONY OF PERRY E. WILGUS
Mr. Tavenner. Will you please state your full name ?
Mr. Wilgus. Perry E. Wilgus.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Wilgus, I will advise you, as I do all witnesses,
that you are entitled to have counsel with you if you desire. So I
want to ask you first : Do you desire counsel ?
Mr. Wilgus. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you live, Mr. Wilgus?
Mr. Wilgus. Marion, Ind.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state briefly what your educational train-
ing has been ?
Mr. Wilgus. Largely self — ^high school and school of hard knocks.
Mr. Tavenner. I am sorry. I can't quite hear.
Mr. Wilgus. School of hard knocks. Self-taught to a large extent.
Mr. Tavenner. That may be the very best type of schooling, if it is
properly utilized. Have you attended college ?
Mr. Wilgus. Oh, I have attended a few classes. Not as an en-
rolled student.
Mr. Tavenner. Not as an enrolled student ?
Mr. Wilgus. No. A few seminars, and that sort of thing.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, tell us more about that. Where did you at-
tend seminars ?
Mr. Wilgus. I have sat in some classes at Northwestern, at the
School of Business Administration.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1355
Mr. Tavenner. "^Vlien ?
Mr. WiLGUS. About 1931 or 1932, 1 believe.
Mr. Tavenner. Excuse me.
Mr.WiLGUS. 1931 or 1932, in through there.
Mr. Tavenner. If you don't mind, will you raise your voice a little ?
The acoustics are not good here. 1932 ?
Mr. WiLGUs. 1931 or 1932. It was not for an extended period.
Maybe a half a dozen classes. That is all.
Mr. Tavenner. "VYlio was the professor?
Mr. WiLGUs. That I don't remember. I don't remember. They
were in the form of lectures, and I can't remember back that far.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Where were you living at the time ?
j\Ir. WiLGUs. In Chicago.
Mr. Tavenner. And where is Northwestern University located ?
Mr. WiLGUs. Well, the downtown campus is around Chicago Ave-
nue near the lake front.
Mr. Tavenner. So you attended classes there without enrolling?
Mr. WiLGUs. That is riglit. You could walk into seminars. You
paid a fee for attending a lecture. That is all it was.
Mr. Ta\tenner. How many lectures did you attend ?
Mr. WiLGus. I would say five or six.
Mr. Tavenner. Over what period of time ?
Mr. WiLGUS. Oh, possibly a year.
Mr. Ta^tenner. Very well. Did you attend any other colleges or
imiversities ?
Mr. WiLGUs. No. I took some correspondence school training.
Mr. Tavenner. Where ?
Mr, WiLGUs. I think it was LaSalle Institute.
Mr. Tavenner. That is in Chicago, is it not ?
Mr. WiLGUS. It was a correspondence school ; yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Any other ?
Mr. WiLGUS. That is all.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Wilgus, what is your present employment?
Mr. Wilgus. I am assistant general production manager of the
Bell Fiber Products Corp.
Mr. Tavenner. Located where ?
Mr. Wilgus. We have plants in Marion, Ind.; Chicago, 111.; and
Grand Rapids, Mich.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been employed by that com-
pany ?
Mr. Wilgus. October 1, 1955.
Mr. Tavenner. 1955 ?
Mr. Wilgus. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Prior to 1955, how were you employed ?
Mr. Wilgus. I was with the Dana Corp.
Mr. Tavenner. From what period ?
Mr. Wilgus. I am trying to think. July 1, 1952, 'til September 1,
1955.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. 1952 to 1955 ?
Mr. Wilgus. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you go on back? How were you employed
prior to that ?
87845—62 9
1356 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. WiLGUs. Prior to that I was with the management consult-
ing firm of Stevenson, Jordan & Harrison.
May I smoke ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes.
Mr. WiLGUS. Thank you. I believe that employment started in
August or September of 1950.
Mr. Ta\t:nxer. And prior to that employment ?
Mr. WiLGUs. A diecasting plant in Detroit, Glendale, I believe it
was.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you speak a little louder, please ?
Mr. WiLGUs. Excuse me. Glendale Die Casting in Detroit.
Mr. Tavenxer. From what period ?
Mr. WiLGUS. That lasted just 1 year.
Mr. Tavenner. That takes us back, then, to Avhat date ?
Mr. WiLGUS. It should take us back to about September of 1948
or 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. 1949. All right. Then prior to that ?
Mr. WiLGUS. 1949. Kalamazoo Stove & Furnace Co., Kalamazoo,
Mich. I believe that date was around May 1948, and that lasted for
just about a year. It closed down at that time.
Mr. Tavenner, And prior to that ?
Mr. WiLGUS. Prior to that, Marks Bros. Manufacturing Co. in Chi-
cago. Prior to that, Micro Switch.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you terminate your employment with
Micro Switch ?
Mr. WiLGUS, It was around October 1, 1945.
Mr. Tavenner. From 1945 to 1948, how were you employed?
Mr. WiLGUS. I was with Marks Manufacturing,
Mr. Tavenner. How long were you with Micro Switch ?
Mr. WiLGUS. Well, let's see. Around May 1, 1942, 1 believe.
Mr. Tavenner. Ajid prior to that employment, how were you
employed ?
Mr. WiLGUs. I was with the Radiant Manufacturing Co. in Chicago.
Mr. Tavenner. From what date to what date ?
Mr. WiLGUS. It seems to me it could have been 1938 or 1939. I think
it was 1939. I am trying to tliink of the age of my oldest boy to try to
tie some of these dates together. I believe it was 1939.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me ask you if this would refi'esh your recollec-
tion. I have before me a copy of your application for employment
with Micro Switch. Just a moment. I have before me application for
employment with the Dana Corp. and you state there that the time
employed at Radiant Manufacturing Co. was July of 1935 to May 1942.
I also have a copy of your application for employment with Steven-
son, Jordan & Harrison, Inc., in which you state Radiant Manufactur-
ing Co., Chicago, 111., production manager, motion picture screens,
June 1935 to May 1942.
Mr. WiLGUS. I think those are both in error, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Both in error ?
Mr. WiLGUs. I think so.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, what was your employment? You are stat-
ing, then, that it may have been in 1939 ?
Mr. WiLGUS. I think so.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your employment prior to 1939 ?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1357
Mr. WiLGUs. I was on the writers' project of WPA during that
time. That is one thing I recall.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien did that begin and end ?
Mr. WiLGUs. Frankly, I don't recall. I think it was around 1937
or 1938. It was about a year's duration.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, Mr. Wilgus, we have examined carefully your
applications for employment at Stevenson, Jordan & Harrison, Inc.,
and the Dana Corp., and they indicate that you gave the date of 1935
to 1942 as the time for your employment with Radiant Manufacturing
Co., which you now say is wrong.
Mr. Wilgus. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. It is of course wrong, because our investigation dis-
closes that Radiant Manufacturing Co. was not organized until 1939.
Mr. Wilgus. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, what reason did you have in reporting in your
applications for employment that you were employed between 1935
and 1939 in a corporation that was not in existence? What reason
did you have for doing that ?
Mr. Wilgus. Well, I was not particularly proud of having been on
the WPA writers' project, in the first place.
Mr. Tavenner. Was there anytliing else in connection with your
work that you were also not proud of ?
Mr. Wilgus. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wliat was that ?
Mr. Wilgus. I was a member of the Communist Party. I think
you well know that.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. You were a member of the party, and you
were concealing that fact when you prepared these applications ?
Mr. Wilgus. That is right, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. And that was for the period 1935 on up to 1939,
when you had no other employment ?
Mr. Wilgus. That is right.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you leave the party in 1939 ?
Mr. Wilgus. No, sir ; I did not.
Mr. ScHERER. When was it you left the party ?
Mr. Wilgus. I think it was a period of a gradual withdrawal that
would probably end up in 1943 or 1944, in through there.
Mr. Tavenner. During your period of employment at Micro Switch,
you held what position ? And that was from 1942 to 1945, I believe.
Mr. Wilgus. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. You w^ere production
Mr. Wilgus. No, I was staff assistant to the secretary -treasurer and
assistant to the vice president of manufacturing.
Mr. Tavenner. You were in charge of manpower, were you not ?
Mr. Wilgus. That is right. I set up procedures on the handling
of selective service problems and otlier things that came up.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you also, during that period of time, hold a
responsible position in civilian defense?
Mr. Wilgus. For a short period of time I was in the morale division
of the northside section of civilian defense in Chicago. That was
prior to my moving to Freeport.
Mr. Tavenner. But in the period you held that position, you were
a member of the Communist Party ?
1358 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. WiLGus. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. And you were also a member of the Communist
Party while employed with Micro Switch ?
Mr. WiLGUs. To a greater extent or lesser extent, yes. Not active.
Mr. Tavenner. And Micro Switch was engaged in the performance
of subcontractual work for defense plants, was it not, at that time?
Mr. WiLGTJS. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. You represented to your employer before you were
employed that you had been a member while you were in school but
had not since been a member?
Mr. WiLGus. Not while I was in school.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, Mr. Wilgus, we have questioned you at this
length about this matter because our investigator, when he came to see
you, did not have your cooperation.
Mr. WiLGus. I was a little stunned, if I may say.
Mr. Tavenner. We would not have gone through all this detail
if you had been frank with us from the beginning. And I am pleased
to know and to observe that you now have decided to give the commit-
tee the facts within your knowledge.
Now, in 1942, Paul Corbin, according to the committee's investiga-
tion, was sent bv IL"WTr to Freeport to organize the W. T. Rawleigh
Co. The W. T. Rawleigh Co. was organized ; Local 221, IL^^HJ-CIO,
by Paul Corbin. I have here, for instance, the agreement between
tiie company and the Warehouse and Distribution Workers' Union,
which shows those having an official connection with that work.
Now, here are the parties that signed the agreement for the organi-
zation of that plant. "For the Union, signed Paul Corbin, Interna-
tional Representative." And the date is 1942.
Mr. DoTEE. Mr. Tavenner, that is a rollcall. We must go to vote.
The committee will have to stand in recess.
(Short recess.)
Mr. Doyle. The committee will reconvene and will proceed.
There is a quorum present : Mr. Scherer, Mr. Doyle, Mr. Johansen,
Mr. Bruce, and Mr. Schadeberg.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Wilgus, at the time you were a member of the
Communist Party while being employed at Micro Switch, what group
of the Communist Party was it that you were identified with ?
Mr. Wilgus. I was "at large."
Mr. Tavenner. At large ?
Mr. Wilgus. That is right. I had no connection whatsoever with
anybody.
Mr. Tavenner. Tell the committee what you mean by "at large."
Mr. Wilgus. Well, if my memory recalls, you are supposed to be
attached to a local unit or club or whatever it might have been called,
of the party organization. If you happened to live in an area where
there wasn't such a thing, they had an "at large" sort of a deal.
Mr. Ta\^nner. And they also had it for the additional reason of
not disclosing the Communist Party connection of the individual, even
to other members.
Mr. Wilgus. That is right. But in my case, certainly I was not
in an important position.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend meetings of the Communist club
known as the John Alden branch in Rockf ord, 111. ?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1359
Mr. WiLGUS. I have a very faint recollection of having attended!
one or two meetings in a hotel.
Mr, Tavenner. In Kockf ord ?
Mr. WiLGus. In Rockford.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Was that the Nelson Hotel ?
Mr. WiLGUS. I think that was it. The one sticks in my memory was
the Faust, but that is the new one and I am sure it wasn't the new one.
Mr. TA^•ENNER. And was Carl Thorman the head of the Communist
group there at the time (
Mr. WiLGUs. That name I do not remember. In fact, the names of
the people involved are very, very vague.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Now, the committee has information in the form
of sworn testimony that you came over from your plant at Freepoit
to Rockford, 111., to talk to Joe Kennedy regarding the conduct of
Paul Corbin over there at Freeport. I will refi-esh your recollection
about it. The subject of your conference was that Paul Corbin was
not adhering to the Communist Party line at that time, which was
that the Communist Party desired to cooperate in the war effort, and
that Corbin was causing trouble because of his favoring sitdown
strikes and other types of interruption of activities that would hinder
the war effort and he couldn't be controlled, and that Kennedy, then,
was asked to try to do something about it.
Now, I think maybe to assist your recollection I should also tell you
that we now have information that Mr. Kennedy visited you, Mr.
Kennedy and his wife.
Mr. WiLGFs. That is what he told me over the telephone.
Mr. Ta\t:nner, Visited you in 3'our home. And I should tell you
this in advance, that he told us where you lived, and described the
place. And he went there and found that place. And that apart-
ment was located just as he described it.
Now, I want to help you all I can, because it is important to you
that you be frank with this committee.
Mr. WiLGus. I am being very frank. The name "Corbin" or
"Corbett," something of that sort, rings a bell in my memory. Let's
face it, gentlemen. This is going back 19 years, with a person I may
have seen two or three times.
Mr. Tavenner. All right. Right there maybe we can help you
further.
Mr. WiLGUS. I don't even remember what the man looks like.
Mr. Taat:nner. All right. Here are pictures of Corbin.
Mr. WiLGUS. Yes. I remember him.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. You remember him ?
Mr. W11.GUS. I remember him, yes. I remember him. This is
Corbin [indicating] .
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Yes. Did you know him by any other name than
Corbin ?
Mr. WiLGUs. I don't believe so. I say the name "Corbin" or
"Corbett" rings a bell. Now I see a face, I can tie it together. I
remember the man.
Mr. Ta\^nner. I don't know whether we showed vou the agreement
between the W. T. Rawleigh Co. of Freeport and the "Warehouse and
Distribution Workers' Union, which was signed by Corbin in Free-
port, in 1942.
1360 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Now, Mr. Wilgus, having- furnished you this information for the
purpose of trying to refresh your recollection, I Avant you to tell the
committee whether you came over to Rockf ord and had a discussion
with Kennedy regarding Paul Corbin.
Mr. Wilgus. As I say, I have a very vague recollection of it. I
remember Corbin. I do not place the name "Kennedy." Frankly,
I don't think I would recognize the man if I saw him. I do not re-
member that name. I remember the name "Corbin" and I remember
Corbin's features.
Mr. Tavenner. All right. I should give you this further bit of
information. Joe Kennedy's Communist Party name was Joseph
Curran. Is that of any help to you ?
Mr. Wilgus. No, it is not, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. It could be of assistance to your memory if we
exhibited to you a picture of Joseph Kennedy ?
Mr. Wilgus. I think that would possibly help, too.
j\Ir. Tavenner. Well, unfortunately we do not have one here now,
but we will supply one.
Now, I should tell you more about Kennedy. Kennedy was the
international representative and business manager of the United
Furniture Workers from 1939 to 1943, which would cover the period
we are talking about.
INIr. Wilgus. That is beginning to fit together.
Mr. Tavenner. He was also a member of the CIO Industrial
Union Council in Rockford, 111., from 1941 to 1943.
Mr, Wilgus. That, of course, I would know nothing about.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, to help you refresh your recollection again,
Mr. Kennedy recalls a specific luncheon engagement that he had with
you in a restaurant in Rockford, 111., which was a place called "Jack's
or Better.''
Mr. Wilgus. I don't remember that place.
Mr. Tavenner. I have helped you all I can, other than to show you
a picture of Kennedy.
Mr. Wilgus. It is coming through when you mentioned the busi-
ness manager of the Furniture Workers Union. I recall that title,
but I cannot tie a face to it. There was a person present, as I say,
I may have had lunch with him. I do not remember that. The only
restaurant that I have ever had lunch in to any extent at all in Rock-
ford was the Old Rathskeller. I used to go down there for dinner
once in a while. But the "Jack's or Better" does not ring a bell.
Mr. Tavenner. But now you do recall an occasion that you remem-
ber in which you conferred with an official of that union that was
mentioned?
Mr. Wilgus. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. And did that take place in Rockford ?
Mr. Wii^us. I am sure it did.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, what was the occasion of your going there
and having that conference ?
Mr. Wilgus. As Mr. Kennedy says, it was probably on this Corbin
thing. I can think of nothing else that it would be, although how I
got into it, I really can't remember.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. What was it about Corbin that caused you
to consul t others ?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1361
Mr, WiLGus. If I recall, as you say, he was a wild man. He was
a wild man.
Mr, Tavenner. Well, now, tell us more about that. What do you
mean, "a wild man"? That will help you to remember the whole
situation ?
Mr. WiLGus. Yes. As I recall, he was tied in with the Longshore-
men's Union. Frankly, I thought it was after 1942. I thought it
was in 1943. After all, these years sort of run together after a time.
Mr. Tavennek. I should tell you that Mr. Kennedy said at the time
that your trip over there was in 1943.
Mr. WiLGUS. As I recall, conversation tliroughout the town, when
the Longshoremen were trying to organize the W. T. Rawleigh Co.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Will you speak a little louder ?
Mr. WiLGUs. What particular interest would W. T. Rawleigh be
to the Longshoremen ? And it just didn't seem to add up, even to me,
for goodness sakes, that tlie Longshoremen had nothing to do but to
try to organize a proprietary drug company, which was certainly not
of any great importance to them that I could see, but, evidently, this
happened in the fall of 1942.
Mr. Tavenner. All right. What w^as the business in which that
company was engaged ?
Mr. WiLGus. The W. T. Rawleigh Co. manufactured a complete line
of proprietary drugs, farm insecticides, and that kind of thing. At
one time they had plants scattered in various parts of the world. I
believe they had one in Melbourne, Australia, at one time, and so on.
I happened to know this, because their executive vice president lived
directly across the hall from me in Freeport, and he, of course, had
been with it since his early youth and he, of course, knew it inside
and out.
It was sold largely on routes, such as the Stanley deal is today, I be-
lieve. Furce-McNess, which is also in Freeport, have a similar site
where they sell to farmers in the rural communities, where they sell
to farmers primarily.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Why did you call Corbin a wild man ?
Mr. WiLGus. It just seemed to me that from the antics that I recall
vaguely of his going through, he was not the most calm individual.
In fact, I think I met him in Freeport once or twice, and probably in
Rockford.
Mr, Johansen. Probably what ?
Mr. WiLGus. Probably in Rockford,
Mr. Tavenner. I don't quite understand what it was about Corbin
that seemed to be wrong over there in Freeport that caused you to be
concerned about it.
Mr. WiLGUs. Frankly, I wasn't concerned about it. I was not con-
cerned about this. It was not of my doing. I had nothing to do with
it. He certainly was not working for me. I had nothing to do with
his union.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Yes. But if at that time you were a member of the
Communist Party and Corbin was not following the Communist Party
line and what the Communist Party was supposed to be doing in the
war eifort at that time, you would take note of that, would you not?
Mr. WiLGUs. Not particularly. Frankly, I was pretty busy myself
trying to do my own job. That was the main thing I was there for,
to do a job for Micro Switch Corp.
1362 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Ta\tnner. This manager who lived just across the hall —
wasn't he vitally concerned about this ?
Mr. WiLGUs. Yes.
Mr. Tavenister. Did he talk to you about it ?
Mr. WiLGTJS. We were not that well acquainted in those days. We
did not move into that building until Jmie of 1942. There was quite
an age difference. Mr. Cooper, I believe, was somewhere in his middle
sixties at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. As you have told us, you do recall going over there
to Rockford and talking to the person who was the international
representative and business manager of United Furniture Workers
and that you can't imagine what you talked about unless it was Cor-
bin. That is what you said ?
Mr. WiLGUs. That is exactly what I said.
Mr. Tavenner. All right. Now, why did you go over there and
talk to Kennedy ?
Mr. WiLGUs. I think I was asked to do it. I think I was asked to do
it because I was in the locality.
Mr. ScHERER. Because you were what ?
Mr. WiLGUS. Because I was in the locality. After all, Rockford is
only 25 or 26 miles from Freeport.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. You were asked to do that by a member of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. WiLGUS, Yes, I presume so.
Mr. TA^^:NNER. You presume so ?
Mr. WiLGTTS. I presume so. Otherwise I would not have gotten
into it.
Mr. Tavenner. Just what were you asked to do by the pei*son that
you presumed was a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. WiLGUS. I presume it would be to settle down and counsel with
the guy and try and calm him down.
Mr. Tavenner. And why go to the business manager or, rather,
the international representative and business manager of the United
Furniture Workers over in Rockford about it?
Mr. WiLGUS. Because I believe that there was a prior meeting with
him at the hotel.
Mr. Tavenner. A prior meeting ?
Mr. WiLGTTS. A prior meeting at which I became acquainted with
Kennedy, or Curran.
Mr. Taatenner. A prior meeting at which you were present?
Mr. WiLGUS. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, was that a Communist Party meeting ?
Mr, WiLGUS. A Communist Party meeting, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. And so you went there to get a leader in the Com-
munist Party to discipline or control Corbin; isn't that what that
means ?
Mr. WiLGUS. In essence, that was exactly that, to try to control him.
Mr. Tavenner. "Why go to a Communist to get a Communist to
control Corbin ?
Mr. WiTXJUs. If I recall, the word had come down that Corbin had
been a Communist or was tied in very closely with them. I do not
recall having attended a meeting, a Communist meeting, with Corbin.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1363
Mr. Tavenner. You said a while ago that you probably met Corbin
on one occasion over at Rockford.
Mr. WiLGus. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that a Communist Party meeting over there?
Mr. WiLGus. That I cannot say. I cannot recall tliat. It was
either with Kennedy, if that is what Kennedy says, or it was a separate
meeting. I do not know. I do not recall having seen the man more
than once in Rockford.
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Counsel, Kennedy has freely admitted to us that
he was a Communist Party member, a Communist Party functionary.
Mr. Tavenxer. Oh, yes. Yes. Oh, there is no question. And
the witness knew Kennedy, or Curran, to be a member of the Commu-
nist Party.
Mr. WiLGUS. That is right. That is right.
Mr. Tavtgnner. Now, I am asking you to try to recall the circum-
stances under which you saw Corbin over in Rockford. Vrhat could
have been your business over there, which would have caused you to
see Corbin in Rockford? Was it Communist Party business"?
INIr. WiLGUS. I would presume so. I would have no other reason
to see the man.
Mr. TA^^:]s^^^ER. Were other people present at the time you saw him ?
Mr. WiLGUS. I do not remember whether Corbin and Kennedy
were the sole people there, whether there were other people involved,
other than Kennedy at another meeting. As I say, I remember at-
tending two or possibly three meetings in Rockford at the Nelson
Hotel. Now, who was present at those meetings, frankly, I cannot
remember.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall the name of anyone? If we would
give you a list of the membership of the Alden branch, the John
Alden branch of the Communist Party in Rockford, would you be
able, do you think, to identify any of them who were present at the
meeting ?
Mr. WiLGUS. I could try. That is all I can do.
Mr. Tavenner. Take it down and show him.
Mr. WiLGUS. There are some of those names that I do recognize.
Katherine Erlich, Mike Kingsley, Irving Herman, Larsen — that is
about the extent of the names that I can recall.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. All right. Those persons whose names you have
identified, do you recognize as being persons you met in Communist
Party meetings ?
Mr. WiLGUS. No, I don't belieA'e any of those were there.
Mr. Ta\t3Nner. You don't believe they were present ?
Mr. WiLGUS. Because most of these people I knew in Chicago.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you know them as members of the Communist
Party in Chicago ?
Mr. WiLGUs. Oh, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. You did? Did you see any of them in the two
Communist Party meetings? Of the two or more that you attended
in Rockford ?
Mr. WiLGUS. I don't believe so. I don't believe so.
Mr. Tavenner. After reflection, can you give us the names of any
of the persons who were present at tin? meetings you attended?
1364 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. WiLGUS. I cannot recall those names. I cannot recall. ]\Iy
memory is not that .2:ood.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Wliat possible meeting could you have had or have
attended in Rockford, with Corbin, if it was not a Communist Party
meeting ?
Mr. WiLGUS. As I say, I cannot think of any other kind of a meet-
ing. It had to be that. I can't think of anything else.
Mr. Taa-enner. Can you recall anything which happened at the
meeting which you and Corbin attended?
Mr. WiLGUs. No, I cannot.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you go together ?
Mr. WiLGus. No. I took the train in.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Can you fix the time of those meetings ?
Mr. WiLGUs. No, I can't. They were probably on Saturdays or
Sundays. That is all I can tell you, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, you said that word came down that Corbin
was, or had been, a member of the Communist Party. Came down
from where ?
Mr. WiLGus. I met Mike Kingsley in Chicago.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Kingsle3^ Isn't he one of those on that list ?
Mr. WiLGus. Yes. And I think Mike had been in and out of Rock-
ford a lot. In fact, I believe he was sent there back in the late thirties
as the organizer and I ran into Mike in Chicago, as I was in Chicago
frequently during those days, and he asked me to check into this and
told me about Corbin, or Corbett.
Mr. Tavenner. Any way, the same man whose photograph was
shown ?
Mr. WiLGUS. That is right. That was the man. The photograph I
remember. The face I know.
Mr. Tavenner. Was this man Kingsley the Communist Party or-
ganizer for Chicago at that time?
Mr. WiLGus. He was in Chicago, I believe, at that time. He had
been in Rockford.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether he was a Communist Party
organizer or not ?
Mr. WiLGTJS. Oh, yes.
Mr. Ta\^nner. In other words, a functionary ?
Mr. WiLGUs. Oh, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. A rather high functionary of the Communist Party
in that area ?
Mr. WiLGus. He was a section organizer.
Mr. Tavenner. What is that ?
Mr. WiLGus. A section organizer.
Mr. Tavenner. Tell us again what he told you about Corbin.
Mr. WiLGUS. In the best of my recollection, Corbett or Corbin was
acting up, "See what you can do about it." And if I recall, he was liv-
ing in Rockford, and I reached this one person — evidently it was Cur-
ran or Kennedy — to arrange a meeting. Now, whether that was the
meeting at which I saw Corbin, I, gentlemen, am sorry, my memory is
not that good.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Now, when Kingsley said to do something about it,
what did that, convey to you ?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1365
Mr. WiLGUS. He asked me. He did not tell me to do it. He asked
me to do it.
Mr. Tavenner. All right. What did he ask you to do ?
Mr. WiLGUs. To see if we couldn't straighten the man out.
Mr. Tavenner. Straighten him out about what ?
Mr. WiLGUS. To alleviate the situation that apparently was begin-
ning to develop, which he knew a lot more than I did about, about the
situation, even in Freeport, among the unions. After all, I did not
associate with these people. I worked 6 days a week and nearly eveiy
evening. We worked on a G-day week then. That is all there was to it.
Mr. Tavenner. You see, it is hard to understand how the Commu-
nist Party organizer in an area would request another Communist
Party member to straighten out a person, unless that person were un-
der tiie discipline of the Communist Party.
Mr. WiLGus. That is quite evident. That is why I presumed he was.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, when the time came to straighten him out and
you had the meeting and Corbin attended, what happened to indicate
that Corbin was either accepting or rejecting that discipline of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. WiLGUS. Frankly, I don't recall any problems after that. In
fact, I don't even know whether the man was still around after that.
Mr. Tavenner. Wait a minute. How is that ?
Mr. WiLGus. I say I don't recall having heard of any problems
arising after that.
Mr. Tavenner. After that ?
Mr. WiLGUs. Nor do I even recall whether the man was around
after that.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, can you recall now, since thinking about these
matters as deeply as you are now thinking about them, what reaction
Corbin gave to this effort to straighten him out? Take all the time
you need.
Possibly to help a little more on that, did you and Kingsley discuss
what course you should take to tiy to straighten this man out ?
Mr. WiLGus. I think it was simply a question of explanation, selling
the man, pointing out what was happening. If there were problems
in that union, which undoubtedly there were, I don't believe the man
understood a small community, a hidebound community, such as Free-
port, and was certainly not in my opinion doing himself or his group
any good at all, his union, with the threats of sitdown strikes and all
that sort of thing.
Mr. Ta\t5nner. Now, did Kingsley suggest that you go and get the
help of Joe Kennedy in this ?
Mr. WiLGus. Frankly, I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. How did you happen to go to Joe Kennedy ?
Mr. WiGus. Because I believe I had met him, as I said, at a prior
meeting.
I think the major emphasis was to get the United States into the
war, up raitil that time.
Mr. Tavenner. If this situation was so difficult in that miion there
at Freeport as to cause the organizer in Chicago to take this action,
there are other people in that union that would know about it, too,
about the condition ?
1366 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. WiLGus. Yes: I presume so.
Mr. Tavexxer. A^^lo could they be?
Mr. WiLGus. I knew none of the men of that union, sir.
]\rr. Tavexxer. What Avas the name of the manager who lived across
the hall from you ? He would know.
Mr. WiLGUs. Cooper.
Mr. Tavexxer. What Cooper?
Mr. WiLGus. Well, we called him Bus Cooper.
Mr. Tavexx'er. Do you know where he is now ?
Mr. WiLGUS. I haven't the faintest idea. I left Freeport in 1948.
Mr. Tav-exxer. All right. Now, I think you have made progress.
You have received information requesting you to go down there and
straighten this man out. What you had in mind was to straighten him
out by the use of someone who had influence on him there in that com-
munity, such as Joe Kennedy, but you were going to do it in a way
that would explain to him the effect of what he was doing.
Now, how did he receive that? You must have made some kind
of an explanation such as that.
Mr. WiLGus. Evidently I heard nothing further about it, to my
knowledge. So therefore it must have worked all right, as I say.
Whether the man even stayed around after that, I don't know.
Mr. Taat.xx'^er. All right. You heard of no more trouble?
Mr. WiLGus. That is right.
Mr. Tavexxer. But what was his reaction at the time you had your
conference Avith him ?
Mr. Wiixjus. As I say, evidently he took it in that spirit. As I
say, I have no recollection of any further being asked to go in and
help on the situation.
Mr. Taatbxx'er. All right. Now, try to reenact that conference as
nearly as you can. Just picture it this way. Here is the organizer
of the Communist Party asking you to go down there and straighten
him out. You picked out Joe Kennedy to arrange for the conference.
You have the conference. And then when you arrived there, how did
you approach him? What did you say to him? Try to reenact just
what occurred.
Mr. WiLGUS. To me that is impossible. That is too fuzzy. I
wouldn't stake my life on it, it is so fuzzy.
As I say, it must have worked.
Mr. Scherer. One of the things that comes to me that you naturally
explained to him is that the Communist Party had now changed its
policy and wanted the fullest cooperation of everybody in the war
effort.
Mr. WiLGFS. That is right.
Mr. Scherer. That would be the only logical thing to tell him.
Mr. WiLGus. That is right.
Mr. Taatexxer. Did you report back to Kingsley ?
Mr. Wiixirs. I don't believe so.
Mr. Tavexxer. Did Kingsley ever say anything more to you about
it?
Mr. WiLGFS. I don't believe I ever saw Mike after tliat. I think he
went into the armed services, because I ran into his wife, I believe, a
year or two after that.
Mr. Tavexxer. Now, were you acquainted with Jack Martin ?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1367
Mr. WiLGUs. Oh, yes ; I have known Jack Martin for a long time.
Mr. Tavenner. Is he an organizer also ?
Mr. WiLGUs. No.
Mr. Tavenner. '\'VTio was Jack Martin ?
Mr. WiLGus. Jack Martin at that time, I believe, was legislative
director.
Mr. ScHEKER. For the Communist Party ?
Mr. WiLGUs. For the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. He came into Kockford from up in Chicago, too,
didn't he?
Mr. WiLGUs. That I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever report your action to anyone with re-
gard to Corbin ?
Mr. WiLGUS. No, sir, I don't believe I did. As I said, it was get-
ting into my period of a very gradual withdrawal from the whole
thing.
Mr. Walsh. May I ask a question? Before, you said that Corbin
was around Rockford and Freeport, and that he was rather boister-
ous, and you also stated, if my memory serves me correctly, that he
could not do that in a small community, because he was getting too
much attention drawn to himself and his associates. Now, did
Kingsley tell you anything about what he was doing and about what
he had heard Corbin was doing ? Does that refresh your recollection
as to what you told Corbin when you did see him, because of his prior
conduct in what Kingsley told you, to go down and straighten him
out, because he could not act that way in a small community ? Does
that refresh your recollection ?
Mr. WiLGUS. I don't think Kingsley recognized what a small com-
munity was himself. I was living there, and I knew what these
people thought.
Mr. Walsh. Wliat did they think about Corbin's actions in that
small community ?
Mr. WiLGUS. The people with whom I associated were a little bit
burned up about it, naturall3\
Mr. Walsh. Burned up about what ? What did he do ?
Mr. WiLGUS. Threats about sitdown strikes and that sort of thing.
Mr. Walsh. And it was Kingsley that told you to straighten him
out with reference to the sitdown strikes ?
Mr. WiLGUS. Well, there was a threat of them. I don't think they
ever materialized.
Mr. Walsh. Well, of course, under party discipline in the Com-
munist Party, Kingsley would not assign you, as a Communist, to go
and tell another individual who was not a Communist to lay off this
and cooperate with the Government from then on ?
Mr. WiLGUS. And I agree with that, absolutely. That is why I say
I was led to believe he was a Communist. I either met him at a party
meeting in Rockford or at some later time. Now, I cannot recollect
all those details.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. Are there questions by any committee members ?
Mr. Bruce. Well, there was one point. At the time that Kingsley
came to you, Mr. Wilgus, you were in your mind pretty well separated
from the party, or still under the discipline of the party ?
1368 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBEN
Mr. WiLGus. I don't feel that I was under the discipline of the party.
I think I realized that the situation had developed that perhaps I
might be able to do something that would help the war effort. I tliink
that was the primary concern.
Mr. Bruce. AVhy would a party organizer — I mean with your knowl-
edge of how the Communist Party operates, and previous experience —
do this? Is it not a bit unusual for a Communist Party organizer to
go to somebody that perhaps he would not trust completely to carry
out an important mission ^
Mr. WiLGUS. I had known Mike for quite some time. In fact, I
moved into an apartment that he vacated. I did not know it until he
came back to pick up his bar bells one afternoon. I met him in the
bookstore.
Mr. Bruce. Wliat bookstore was that ?
Mr. WiLGus. A bookstore down on Randolph Street that was oper-
ated by the party, and he knew that I was in Freeport.
Mr. Bruce. In recent months there has been quite a bit of pub-
licity with the name of Paul Corbin attached to it. Did you see any
of that?
Mr. WiLGus. I have seen nothing whatsoever. The name simply
meant nothing to me, even when Mr. Wetterman mentioned it, it was
so far out of my memory. And, frankly, gentlemen, I spent 5 months
trying to dig out, 5 months since around December 5, trying to dig
back into memory. And, frankly, these things begin to run together,
and my memory is not that good.
Mr. Tavenner. I think, out of fairness to you, the committee should
know a little more about yourself, the type of employment that you
have, so that they may evaluate your testimony a little better.
Mr. WiLGUs. Well, may I be just a little bit historical about this?
I think it might put it into context.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, I think you are entitled to that.
Mr. WiLGUs. My first experience in industrial employment was with
Radiant Motion Picture Screen Co.
Mr. Tavenner. Keep your voice up.
Mr. WiLGus. Excuse me. I'll try to moisten it a bit.
I had no knowledge of industry whatsoever, except what I had read
in the party tracts. I started out as a bench hand, attaching the motion
picture screens to a roller with staples. It took 12 to 15 staples, de-
pending upon the size of it and each one hit the hand. Well, it began
to hurt and to bruise, so I began to think of other ways of doing it,
and I finally began looking over the lineup of the entire shop and
when they moved to larger quarters, I made some suggestions as to
straight-line assemblies, and so on, which seemed to me to be nothing
more than commonsense, and within about 5 or 6 months I was schedul-
ing production and setting up bills of material, and tliat sort of thing,
which, of course, I knew nothing about at all. But it just seemed a
commonsense way to do it.
I set up the inventory controls, the whole works, and wlien I left
there to go to Micro Switch, they had a pretty fair operation going.
That was my first experience.
At Micro Switch I was very fortunate in getting to know a W. W.
Gil more, who died about 2 years ago. Gil was out there as a consultant
at that time doing market research and when the war came on they
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBENT 1369
asked him to remain. He was an old George S. May man — George S.
May, who died just a couple of days ago. Gil sort of took me under
his wing. And while f mictionally I reported to the seci'etary treasurer
as staff assistant, I actually reported to W. W. Gihnore, who outlined
the various things that he felt ought to be done in order to get this thing
moving.
The Micro Switch plant produced an average of 10,000 switches a
week at that time. Air Corps requirements were somewhere aromid
200,000 switches. Their mentality had been geared to this 10,000
switch production. They did not see how they could possibly meet
those schedules. As I say, we worked 6 days a week, many times on
Sunday. I was there night after night after night. And as I say,
Gihnore taught me an awful lot.
At the conclusion of the war, I had the opportunity to become
plant superintendent at the Marks Manufacturing Plant, which manu-
factures lighting fixtures, lamps, and that sort of thing. I had gotten
some knowledge of stamping operations, what machine tools were,
what they could do and what they could not do while at Micro Switch,
and some of the improvisations which w^ere really medieval, that I
thought were marvelous things at Radiant.
We still maintained our home in Freeport. I stayed with my parents
during the week and spent weekends in Freeport. Well, it was simply
no good. Two small children. You can't be away for 5i/^ days a week
and have a family. The opportmiity arose to become production
manager of the Kalamazoo Stove Co. at a salary of 50 percent more
than I was getting at Marks.
Art Blakeslee, who was president and board chairman and I got
along very well.
Mr. JoHANSEN. If I may interrupt, Mr. Blakeslee died just within
the last few months.
Mr. WiLGUs. He did ? Well, his son-in-law, Henry Blanchoc, was
there. In fact, I replaced Hank when I went in there. Unfortunately,
the stove company got into the stamped stove too late. It had been a
cast-iron operation for generations, "from Kalamazoo direct to you."
Their dealer franchise setup and so on was so inadequate that I spent
my last 4 months selling steel. We had it coming in 5,000 to 8,000 tons
a month, and we were only chopping up a thousand tons, and we had
70,000 tons in the warehouse, so we began dumping steel. And,
actually, that is what broke the steel market back in 1948 and 1949,
when we started turning loose these large quantities of steel. The
company made more money that year than they ever made in their
life simply by selling the steel.
Well, I ended up without a job, anyhow, and during a discussion
with a very close friend of mine who was in the employment agency
business, he suggested that I go up to see Stevenson, Jordan & Har-
rison, and perhaps one of their clients might have a spot for me.
Well, I spent 2 days up there taking their psychological tests and
ended up working for them, which lasted until I clid an assignment for
the Dana Corp. in Toledo, setting up their manufacturing budgets for
a plant employing around 4,000 people, that had an annual payroll
in excess of a million and a half — oh, $15 million. We ended up by
taking out of their works expense, within a 6-month period, over $3
million a year in savings in that one plant.
1370 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
I was asked to remain with Dana by another Jack Martin, who was
president of the Dana Corp., no relation, incidentally, that we men-
tioned earlier. Jack asked me to stay on at the end of the assign-
ment, which lasted 6 months, and I agreed to. There were certain
promises made, and so on, to train staffs for each one of the 11 plants
to do the same job.
In the fall of 1952, they opened a plant in Marion, Ind., about a
$40 million investment. They could never get it off the ground.
So in March of 1953 I had a trained staff that was carrying out the
entire budget control for the Toledo plant. So I was sent down to
Marion, Ind. In the meantime, I had lost my wife and family and
was pretty much at loose ends. The agreement was that when I
got that plant into the black, I would become director of manufac-
turing budgets for the corporation, which by that time included about
12 plants, and they were picking them up each year.
Somehow or other the promise wasn't kept. So on August 1, 1 sub-
mitted my resignation, effective September 1, 1955.
*******
I had met , who is the sole owner, incidentally, of
[name of company]. He is, I think, 2 years yomiger than I
am. And we became acquainted, and I, while with S. J. & L., had done
some work for box shops. And over the period from time to time we
would get into conversations about the operations of a corrugated
box shop and some of the people in the industry. I knew a lot of
them, and my wife and I had decided to take a month's trip through
the East and visit Jack while he was at Hamilton College and when
I got back there was a note : "Before you decide what you are going
to do, if you haven't decided, I would like to talk with you. [Name
of company owner] ."
We got back just before the 1st of October of 1955. I went to work
for on October 1, 1955, as cost analyst.
In February 1959 I was made assistant general production manager.
I still report to , altliough we have a vice president and
a general production manager.
That, gentlemen, is my story.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you very much for taking the time to tell us.
Anything more ?
Mr. Tavenner. No, I have no further questions,
Mr. ScHERER. I might make an observation and see what counsel
and the rest of the committee think about it. Perhaps the witness
now, as a result of his hearing here today, having his recollection
refreshed, might give some further thought to this matter. You might
want to continue him under subpena, and then maybe he could elab-
orate a bit more and be a little more definite.
Mr. Bruce. I have listened very attentively to your detailing of
your hard struggle and the disappointments that came occasionally
and also the pride with which you have cited the accomplishments of
both
Mr. WiLGus. Gentlemen, I am not about to jeopardize those accom-
plishments.
Mr. Bruce (continuing) . Your stepchildren and your own children.
Mr. WiLGUS. I am very proud of them.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1371
Mr. Bruce. Well, you have eA^ery reason to be from what you have
said here. And there are occasions when a committee such as this has
to delve into things that from our standpoint we would just as soon
not have to delve into, because you realize and I realize before I came
down here — I don't know whether you are at all familiar with the
broadcasting work I was doing. I was hitting pretty hard in this
area. It is a hard, cold battle that we are in. You know that and I
know that. Sometimes we are forced to do things to men like you
and others that we would just as soon not do. I can understand the
apprehension, which you have not stated, incidentally, about what
effect there would be if the word becomes known that you were at one
time in the Communist Party and that now, in the year 1962 you have
been subpenaed before a congressional investigating committee. I can
feel and sense the apprehension that you have as to how it will affect
not just you but these children of which 3'ou are so proud.
Mr. WiLGUs. That is right.
Mr, Bruce. These are conditions, however, that you cannot change,
and we cannot change, simply because there is loose in the world a
force that is determined not just to destroy my children, but the future
of the merit scholar youngster who scored a 99, the Harvard graduate,
and all the rest of us. Sometimes we are called upon to have to do
things which cut deeper than anything that we could possibly have
imagined. And all I can say to you, Mr. Wilgus, is that my heart
bleeds for the situation in which you find yourself. It is something
that you have put out of your mind, that you have tried to wipe away
as if it had not happened.
Mr. WiLGUs. That is right.
Mr. Bruce. I do not know what led you into the party — I do not
know what you performed in these activities in the party.
Mr. Wiixius. I will tell you, I was not much of a speaker.
Mr. Bruce. Well, that is only a minor part of party function. But
I simply beg you as you go out of here, feeling the thoughts that you
do feel about the repercussion on your family and elsewhere, to look
at it in an even broader sense.
We are in a situation here where we have been working on it, the
counsel much more than the Congressmen, actually. I never heard
of you until today. We are in something that is a very important case
that we are trying to pursue. I think you have pieced that together ;
when you realize the position of the gentleman that you have been in-
terrogated about and the positions he has held, and I simply beg you
to get that memory refreshed as much as you can. I mean, try and pin
these things down. Because this can be vital to part of a total pic-
ture in which you may be called upon to play a very important role.
You have told us enough to verify some things that we already know.
You have played an important role already, whether you realize it or
not. And a committee such as this, in order to verify other evidence,
has to go back and check out others who can be substantiatoi-s of evi-
dence we already have.
I cannot but feel that wnth the memoiy you have displayed with the
detail that you have gone into here in the last 10 minutes, step by step,
and the feelings that you have, somewhere, somehow, tliese other things
are going to fall into place, too. Psychologically, you can always wipe
87845—62 10
1372 TESTIMONY BY .\ND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
out of your mind, even subconsciously, details that you want to forget,
and in perfect honesty sit here and actually have forgotten them. But
as you struggle with these thoughts within you, you could be of tre-
mendous help to us, I am sure, by the things that you have already
told us. And I simply ask you in the days ahead : Don't wipe it out of
your mind but try and get these things back into the chain. Because
anybody who feels as deeply as you do, the way you have been reciting
here in the last 10 minutes, is a man who has had deep emotional im-
pact with the things he has been involved in.
That is all I have to say, and I thank you for coming.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, may I go off the record a moment ?
Mr. Doyle. All right. Off the record, please.
( Discussion off' the record. )
Mr. Tavenner. Back on the record.
I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness be held under subpena.
After hearing his statement, I am not uneasy that he will attempt to
avoid the command of that subpena. So if we need him again, we
will write to him.
Mr. WiLGUS. I would appreciate that, gentlemen. May I make a
statement off the record, please ?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Doyle. You understand, then, that you are continuing under
subpena. That will be the order. Thank you very much.
Mr. WiLGUs. Thank you, gentlemen.
(Whereupon, at 6 :45 p.m., Thursday, March 15, 1962, the hearing
was adjourned, and the subcommittee recessed, subject to the call of
the Chair.)
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
MONDAY, JULY 2, 1962
United States House of Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D.C.
EXECUTI\Ti session ^
The Committee on Un-American Activities met, pursuant to call,
at 10 a.m.. Room 219, Old House Office Building, Hon. Francis E.
Walter (chairman of the committee) presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives Francis E. Walter, of
Pennsylvania; Clyde Doyle, of California; William M. Tuck, of Vir-
ginia ; Gordon PI. Scherer, of Ohio ; August E. Johansen, of Michigan ;
Donald C. Bruce, of Indiana ; and Henry C. Schadeberg, of Wisconsin.
Staff members present : Francis J. McNamara, director ; Frank S.
Tavenner, Jr., general counsel ; and Neil E, Wetterman, investigator.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. Let the record
show that there is a quorum present.
Will you please raise your right hand ?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Corbin. I do, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, two members of the bar are ac-
companying the witness. I would like to ask each of them to identify
himself for the record.
Mr. Hooker. My name is John Hooker, Jr. I am a lawyer from
Nashville, Tenn. This is my law partner, Mr. William R. Willis, also
from Nashville, Term.
TESTIMONY OF PAUL CORBIN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, JOHN
HOOKER, JR., AND WILLIAM R. WILLIS
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Corbin, will you please state your name, age,
occupation, residence?
Mr. Corbin. My name is Paul Corbin. I am 47 years old, and I
presently reside at 1108 Sussex Place, Alexandria, Va.
My occupation is, I am employed as an inspection assistant to the
national chairman of the Democratic Party, Mr. John Bailey.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Corbin, the following resolution of the Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities authorizing this investigation and
hearings subsequently held pursuant thereto, was adopted on the 22d
of November 1961.
(For text of resolution, see p. VII.)
1 Released by the committee and ordered to be printed.
1373
1374 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, for some period of time public
charges and accusations have been made concerning Mr. Corbin. As
a result, some Members of Congress have stated that if these charges
are true a security problem is created by the fact that Mr. Corbin
is in a position to select, recommend, or influence selection of, personnel
for Government positions.
Mr. Corbin, knowing of these charges and the investigation in which
the committee has been engaged, requested by letter that he be given
an opportunity to testify before the committee in answer to them.
Under the rulings of the committee and in accordance with its tra-
ditional practice in such instances, this hearing is being held in re-
sponse to his request and in the discharge of the committee's in-
vestigative responsibility in this matter.
Mr. Corbin, do you hold the position of special assistant to the
chaiiTnan of the Democratic National Committee? I believe you
said you did.
Mr. Corbin. Yes, I do, sir.
Mr. Hooker. Mr. Chairman, if I might, might I say here that my
client, Mr. Corbin, has prepared a statement, which is fairly brief,
stating in general in chronologj' his life in this country and, to
some degree, prior to that. I would like to ask the chairman if it
would be permissible for Mr. Corbin to read that statement so as to
make an affirmative
The Chairman. You submit the statement. If we find that it is
proper, we will admit it because, in all probability, Mr. Tavenner will
ask questions relating to what is contained in the statement. You
just file the statement for consideration of the committee.
Go ahead, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Corbin, I have before me a photostatic copy of
of an excerpt from the February 16, 1961, issue of the JanesviUe
Gazette and I will read two paragraphs of it.
Paul Corbin, Janesville free lance public relations man who served on Presi-
dent Kennedy's campaign staff, reported from Washington today that he is
serving as special assistant to John Bailey, the new Democratic national com-
mittee chairman.
Corbin said he currently is processing a deluge of applications from persons
seeking jobs affiliated with the new administration.
Were you correctly reported in that interview ?
Mr. Corbin. I would like to explain, Mr. Chairman and mem-
bers, that the deluge of applications came from Congressmen and Sen-
ators recommending various people for various positions, and I would
merely separate them by State and turn them over to the administra-
tive aide of Mr. John Bailey, who would then determine as to what
they wished to do with them.
My job was merely to separate the applications from State chair-
men, Congressmen, and Senators. The mail came in, and they would
allocate them, a pile for me and a pile for another member of the staff,
and I would separate them. At times at the early stages of the Ad-
ministration in January there were quite a few people coming in to be
interviewed. I had instructions from the national chairman of the
Democratic Committee, who would have a regular formula.
An applicant would come in, and you would ask him his name and
where he was from and what State. If lie came from Missouri, "Have
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1375
you a recommendation from voiir Senator or from your Congress-
man?"
If the answer was ''Yes,'' I liad to take his resume and forward it
to his administrative aide. If he didn't have any recommendation
from the Senator or Congressman, I would refer him back to the
Senator from the State or his Congressman for reconnnendation.
If there was not any Democratic Senator from that State or no
Democratic Congressman from that State, I would refer him back
to the State chairman.
We had a book of organizations, which every member of the staff
had, designating, in those States where there was no Democratic
Congressmen or Senators, the name of the State chairman or the na-
tional committeeman, depending on the rules set down by that State.
If a man didn't have those lettei'S of recommendation, I wouldn't
talk to him. As a matter of fact, after a week or so, I was spending
a lot of time talking to people who didn't have these recommendations.
We left ins:tructions with the receptionist that if a man came in, the
first thing she would ask him was, "Do you have letters of endorsement
from your Congressman and Senator's?" If he didn't have them, he
never got to me. This was done for about 3 or 4 weeks until we
organized it and then my duty, as far as that function was concerned,
was taken away from me.
Mr. Ta^-exner. Why was it taken away from you ?
Mr. CoRBix. My experience in politics has been mostly with organi-
zation, organizing, strengthening party units; and that was my field
and, frankly, I didn't ])articularly enjoy personnel work.
Mr. Tav'enxer. Well, during the period that you were serving in
the capacity you described, did you make recommendations or sug-
gestions for the selection of appointees to Federal i^ositions?
Mr. CoRBix. That was not my authority. As the Members of Con-
gress know, the only ones that make recommendation is the Congress-
men and Senators themselves.
Mr. Tavtenxer. I didn't ask what your authority was. I said did
you make recommendations ?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. CoRBix. To whom are you referring that I made these recom-
mendations ?
Mr. Tavenner. To anyone ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Well, occasionally a girl would come in and she
wanted a job as a typist. I would check with the chairman, Mr,
Bailey, or one of the deputies, and I would turn over the resume to
them and say, ""WHiat do you think about this gal?"
They would say, "Get a letter from her Congressman or get a letter
from her county chairman, or State chairman," but I never recom-
mended anyone for a position on my own. It was always at the
specific orders of the chairman or the deputies, chairman of the Demo-
cratic Party.
Mr. Tavexker. "\'\niat had been your duties since the jieriod that
you described as 3 or 4 weeks, I believe, after you began your original
duties?
Mr. CoRBix. My duties, during the rampaign, the Democratic cam-
paign
Mr. Tavexxer. No.
1376 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERXING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. CoEBix. I am trying to lead up to the circumstances. I have
never been before a committee before, so if I goof up I just want you
to understand that I haven't got the experience as you have.
Mr. Tavenner. All you have to do is state the facts.
Mr. CoRBiN. I will just do the best I can and answer truthfully the
best I am able to.
Mr. Tavenner. That is what we want you to do.
Mr. CoEBiN. During the campaign my assignment, after the con-
vention, was New York State: and during the campaign I had discov-
ered that there were a lot of, many, many, county chairmen, as far as
I was concerned, who were inept. They didn't do anything and they
were just hoping that a miracle would come, that they would win, and
it was quite obvious from my observations that some of them, in order
to maintain themselves in the position of county chairmen, weren't
too anxious to have too much organization in case some of the young
fellows would oust them, so I had difficulty during the campaign in
dealing with many of those chairmen up in New York.
For example, some of them, their grandfathers were county chair-
men, their fathers were county chairmen, and they were county chair-
men. They ruled by divine right.
Mr. Tavenner. I think you are getting a little far afield. We are
not inquiring about what occurred prior to the election.
My question is. What were your duties after the first 3 or 4 weeks ?
Mr. CoRBiN. My duties were to try to correct the situation that I
described in New York State and help some of the former Citizens for
Kennedy that I had organized, independents, and Democrats who
were dissatisfied with local leadership to oust county chairmen and,
as a matter of fact, I'm doing it up to the present time. I am still at it.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Corbin, are you a native of this country ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I was born in a suburb of Winnipeg, which is called
West Kildonan in the Province of Manitoba in the Dominion of
Canada.
Mr. Tavenner. And the date ?
Mr. Corbin. I was born on the 2d of August, 1914.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere did you reside in Canada prior to your first
entrance into the United States ?
Mr. Corbin. I lived with my parents on a farm outside of Winnipeg.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Were you known by any name other than Corbin
before being admitted to this country ?
Mr. Corbin. Yes; my father's name and my name was Paul
Kobrinsky.
Mr. Tavenner. And your father's name ?
Mr. Corbin. Was Nathan Kobrinsky.
Mr. Tavenner. Please give us the date of your first entrance into
the United States and the place at which you entered ?
Mr. Corbin. Well, gentlemen, it has been such a long time ago that
I might be off on my dates, but I will try to give you an honest answer.
The Chairman. Just to the best of your recollection.
Mr. Corbin. I will try to give you an honest answer.
I believe it was in 1934, approximately in the month of June, that
I entered the United States for the first time.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1377
Mr. Ta\'enner. The committee information is that you entered the
first time on May 1, 1930.
Mr. CoRBiN. 1930?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Could that be correct ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, that's wrong.
Mr. ScHERER. "What did yon say, Frank ?
Mr. Tavenner. May 1, 1930.
Mr. CoRBiN. No, that is absolutely wrong.
Mr. Ta\^nner. You say then your first entrance was in 1934?
Mr. CoRBiN. That is correct.
Mr, Tamsnner. Were you married at the time of your entrance into
the United States?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir. I was single.
Mr. Tavenenr. What was your purpose of coming into the United
States on that occasion ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Well, every summer at home I worked the farm. We
were chiefly engaged in cutting of hay. That vras our chief source
of revenue outside of milk, and me and my brother used to go out
and do the hay cutting. We would hire a group of men.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your brother's name ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Sid, S-i-d.
Then my brother was entering in medicine, in the last year, so my
dad decided that rather than cut hay that year he would lease the land
and hire professional hay cutters who would move from sections of
land to sections of land, so consequently there was no work for me
in the fields with the exception of milking the cows, which I wasn't
particularly fond of,
Mr. Tavenner. You are going into right much detail,
Mr, CoRBiN. I am trying to explain to you why I left, in answer
to your question,
Mr, Ta\t:nner. Yes,
Mr, CoRBiN. So I took a freight train, a group of us, to see Canada
and I went to Montreal. From Montreal I went to Windsor, and
there across the river I saw Detroit. Well, every Canadian was always
fascinated b}^ America. Every man's ambition was to go to the United
States. So I crossed over and I don't mind saying that you would
ask the people how you get over. Well, you have to have your birth
certificate or you have to have a head tax, which is $8, and I guess
I was about 18 at the time and I don't believe I ever had $8 to my
own, so most of the fellows used the excuse they were going over to
see a ball game over in Detroit.
I went over there, and then we decided that there was a World's
Fair on in Chicago; I might as well hitchhike over to Chicago and
see the World's Fair, I did that and spent about a day, didn't have
any money, so I was forced to leave Chicago, and that's how I got
into the United States,
Mr. Taa-enner. IVliere did you go from Chicago ?
Mr. CoRBiN, From Chicago I did a little hitchhiking down around
the southern part of the State and was fascinated by New York,
and it was only the end of June, I had a lot of time before September
before I went back to school, so I hitchhiked to New York.
I arrived there with, I remember, a nickel and had some relatives
that lived in Brooklyn on 29th Street. I used the nickel to take the
1378 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
subway, and I wound up in New York rather than Brooklyn. I will
never forget that. I wound up walking all the way from 29th Street,
New York, across the bridge to Brooklyn to see my relatives. That's
where I went.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you marry while there on this vacation?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes, I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that the 16th of August 1934?
Mr. CoRBiN. That is correct. I met my cousin there, my first
cousin, my mother's sister's daughter, and I got married.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Had you met her before this ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes, I did. She had visited us with an aunt previously
a year or two before. I can't remember exactly.
Mr. Tavenner. Then when did you return to Canada?
Mr. CoRBiN. I returned to Canada I believe within — it is hard to
recollect, but I would say within 30 days because I was notified — I
hadn't told my parents that I was married and I had notified them I
was staying at my aunt's house, and they notified me that my oldest
sister was getting married sometime in August and I should come
back home, and my dad sent me the bus fare and I went back in
August.
Mr. Tavenner. Then did you return to the United States at a later
date for the purpose of making this country your permanent residence ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Well, I wouldn't say definitely that I came back for
that purpose. I came back to my wife, and I hadn't actually formu-
lated any definite plans as to whether I wanted to adopt the United
States as my country or go back to Canada.
Mr. Tavenner. Hadn't your wife gone back to Canada with you?
Mr. CoRBiN. No ; not at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. But when you came back to the United States didn't
you leave your wife in Canada?
Mr. CoRBiN. Wlien I went back to the United States ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes ; when you came back.
Mr. CoRBiN. You asked me a question as to when I went back to
Canada. I came back to Canada for the wedding in August and my
wife remained in New York.
Mr. Tavenner. She didn't go to Canada with you ?
Mr. CoRBiN. At that time, no.
Mr. Tavenner. When did she go back to Canada ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I am just trying to recollect. I went back to New York
and within a few months my wife was pregnant, so I wrote to my
parents and they suggested that, inasmuch as I wasn't earning much
of anything at the time and inasmuch as one of my uncles was an ob-
stetrician and that we had plenty of room on the farm, and all the
rest of the members of the family hadn't shown any particular interest
in farming because they were going on to higher education, it might
be a good idea if T brought my wife back to have the child and stay
and work the farm with my father.
So I came back, I would say, roughly the latter part of 1934 or
«arly part of 1935, because my daughter was bom in Canada.
Mr. Ta\t=:nner. You mean you came back to Canada?
Mr. CoRBiN. Canada, with my wife.
Mr. Ta\t^.nner. But T undei-stood you to say that you left New
York for Canada within 30 days.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1379
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes. That was the first time, sir. Then when I came
back, attended the wedding, and I stayed about a month, I then went
back to New York.
Wlien you asked me if I came back to adopt this as my countiy, I
did not. I went back to see my wife. I stayed until she became
pregnant and this problem arose. I wrote to my parents, and they
suggested that I come back with the Avife to work the farm, which
I did ; came back to Canada.
Mr. Tavenner. Then when did you return to the United States?
Mr. CoRBiN. Now, again, sir, I want you to understand, this is over
25 years ago and I can't veiy well remember the exact dates.
Mr. Tavenner. See if I can refresh vour recollection— October 21^
1935?
Mr, CoRBiN. Well, it doesn't bear any significance, but I would say
it is — let's see. Donnie was born in July. I would say — just a
moment — 1935 ? This was in October. Yes, that would be accurate^
because I never sj^ent the winter with my wife in Canada, right.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you enter the United States at that time for
the purpose of making this country your place of peraianent
residence ?
Mr. Corbin. At that timel can honestly say I hadn't actually
fonnulated any definite plans as to whether I was going for a brief
period. I guess I was about 19 at the time or 20 and I wasn't sure
then. I can't honestly answer that.
Mr. Tavenner. You would have been 21 ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I can't honestly answer that, at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, at this point, I would like to ask you a few
questions about your educational background and your employment
background.
Will you tell us what your educational background was prior to
this time of which we are speaking; that is, when you entered the
United States in 1935?
Mr. CoRBiN. Well, I attended a one-room country school outside of
Winnipeg until the eighth grade and then, for the first year of high
school, I was sent to an adjoining municipality. No, I believe it was
the same mmiicipality, but a different section for a grade — no, excuse
me. Up to and including tlie seventh grade, I went to this one-room
coimti-y school. That was the John H. Gumi School. Then I went
for the eighth grade, where you took your final exams, to a public
school. I went to another school because we never had the eighth
grade in this one room.
Mr. Tavenner. What was that other school ?
Mr. Corbin. It was a public school. Then I went to the high school
in our municipality and from then on in I left high school and went
to the University of Manitoba.
Mr. Taatenner. Wliere is the University of Manitoba located ?
Mr. Corbin. That is in the city of Winnipeg.
Mr. Tavenner. How many years did you attend that school and
when ?
Mr. Corbin. Two years.
Mr. Tavenner. What were the dates ?
Mr. Corbin. Let's see. I left in 1934 in the summer. That would
be— 1934, 1933—1932 to 1934.
1380 TESTIMONY BY .\ND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr, Ta\tnner. Now what was your record of emploj^iient prior to
your coming into the United States in 1935 outside of your work on the
farm ?
Mr, CoRBiN. The only money I ever earned was one summer I went
to work for another farmer in the Province of Saskatchewan, I be-
lieve it was 1932. I was a young man and it was difficult. It was
depression years, and my brother was going to college and my sister
was going to college, and I was pretty experienced in fixing machinery
so I told mj' dad that I could earn more — he could hire people cheaper
than he could pay me in order to earn money so I went to Saskatch-
ewan.
They paid me $3 a day where I would run a binder, fix harness, milk
cows.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have any other employment prior to coming
to this country in 1935 ?
Mr. CoRBix. Yes, I believe I did. After I came back with my wife
I worked for about 2 weeks for the college newspaper, the Manitohan,
called the University of Manitoba paper, and they hired me to sell ad-
vertising to the local business people in the community, and I couldn't
continue because there was a question of whether it was legal or not
because I wasn't attending college and the rule that you had to be
actually a student in order to sell this. That was the extent of my
employment.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have any other employment, other than
what you have mentioned ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No other employment.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Prior to 1935 ?
Mr. CoRBiN. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Now let us return to the question of your entrance
into the United States. Did vou have a visa when you entered the
United States on October 21, 1935 ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, I did not.
( Xt this point Mr. Tuck left the hearing room. )
Mr. Tavenner. It was the practice in 1935 to have an immigrant
sign a manifest card in some cases in lieu of presenting a visa.
Did you sign a manifest card ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I signed nothing.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Corbin, the committee's investigation discloses
that upon your entry into the United States on October 21, 1935, you
stated to the immigration authorities that you were American-born.
The investigation also discloses that you represented yourself as
being Sidney Kobrinsky, that Sidney is the name of your brother,
and that in using your brother's name on entry into the United States
you also presented your brother's birth certificate to the immigration
authorities for verification of your claimed identity in an attempt to
show your birthplace as being Brooklyn, N.Y.
Did you state to the immigration aut:horities that you were Ameri-
can-born ?
(Council confers with counsel.)
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes. You have an advantage over me, Mr. Tavenner.
Ea'cu though I have lived that life, you have it in front of you and
I have to go back 25 years, so you have an edge on me.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNESTG PAUL CORBIN 1381
Mr. Tavenner. Well, if you want me to repeat any part, I ^Yill. I
am asking you about each detail of it.
Mr. CcmBiN. My wife and child left Canada.
Mr. Ta\t<:nner. Now wait a minute.
Mr. CoKBiN. I am going to answer your question if you will just
give me a second. I am not an expert.
Mr. Tavenner. All right.
Mr. CoRBiN. She left with the baby and she took a train to Min-
neapolis on to New York. I was busted and I asked my dad for the
money and he says, "All I will give you, kid, is $2 and a carton of
Millbank cigarettes. You got vourself into this mess. You get your-
self out of it."
He did help me to this extent. He arranged with the cattle com-
missioner to get me a free ticket. A lot of cattle is shipped from west-
ern Canada to eastern Canada. He got me a free ticket, and I went
to Windsor and at that time, wanting to go to my child and my wife
who was in New York, I recall vividly, I couldn't take the calculated
risk of telling the man I was going to a ball game, so my brother, who
was born in Brooklyn, I took his birth certificate and presented it at
Windsor.
I believe it was at Windsor, Ontario, and that's how I crossed over
to New York.
The Chairman. Wliy did you give your brother's name? There
is no quota. The border is wide open. Why did you not use your
own name? Why did you not say you were going across to take a
walk or to see your wife ? Why did you give your brother's name ?
Mr. CoRBiN. 1 will try to answer that, Mr. Chairman. See, there
was a head tax for Canadians of $8. I didn't have it.
The Chairman. That was for immigrants who were coming to the
United States for permanent residence. If you wantedto come to see
your wife you did not have to pay any head tax, but just give your
name.
Mr. CoRBiN. The only explanation I have, Mr. Walter, is when you
are broke and winter is coming and you have nobody and you go to
New York, having been born on a farm, I erred ; but maybe at that
time, under those circumstances, a fellow can't think as clearly as he
ought to. My main objective was to go to New York for my wife
and baby.
(At this point Mr. Tuck entered the liearing room.)
The Chairman. Why did you not tell the immigration people that
frankly ? There is no problem at all.
jNIr. CoRBiN. I wasn't aw^are of that. I thought there might be dif-
ficulty and here I am
The Chairman. You walked back and forth to the ball game and
everything else.
Mr. CoRBiN. I beg your pardon ?
The Chairman. You said a minute ago you came over to see a
ball game.
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes, at that time. I have no alibi. At that time I
was single, Mr. Chairman. I was a little more carefree than I was
when I was married. INIarriage and a child sort of matures you pretty
quickly, especially when you are broke.
1382 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Tavenxer. Let me understand this. I thought you said you'
had left vour wife in Canada when you came to tlie United States on
October 21, 1935.
Mr. CoRBiN. I didn't say that. sir. I left my wife in Canada?
Mr. Tavenner. That is what I thought you said.
Mr. CoRBix. I neA'er left my wife in Canada alone, never did, never
said that.
Mr. ScHERER. Counsel is correct. I made a note of it as he said it.
He said he came over on October 21. 1935, and at the age of 21 he left
his wife in Canada. That is the note I have.
Mr. CoRBiN. Xo, my Avife had gone to Minneapolis to New York
prior to me leaving. I never said tliat. I beg your pardon.
The Chairman. "Well, the record speaks for itself.
Mr. CoRBiN. If you got that interpretation I am sorry that I
Mr. ScHERER. I just wrote down what you said.
Mr. Tavenner. You say your wife had gone to some other State
prior to your leaving Canada. Did you say Indiana ? No, you said
Minneapolis.
Mr. CoRBiN. She went to Minneapolis. As a matter of fact, I am
trying to recollect now. It wasn't only my wife and child, but her
mother had come. My mother's sister had arrived from New York.
There was three of us. My wife at that time — her mother and father
were separated, had been separated for years— and the oldest boy,
that's my wife's brother, had located their father who resided at that
time in Elkhart, Ind. ; and he had convinced his father that years
had gone by and that all had grown up and that they should get to-
gether, so the family, the rest of the family, the three brothers, had
moved to Elkhart, Ind., to get together with their father who they
had been separated from for years, so when slie left — now. Mr. Chair-
man and members of the committee, it is a long time ago.
I can't remember if I used a birth certificate when I went to New
York after I weiU to my sister's wedding, or whether I used the birth
certificate to go back the third time. I can't remember, but it was
one of those times I used a birth certificate. It was either to go back
in 1935, or I might have used it — I used it at one point, but I can't
remember at what point I used it.
I just can't recollect.
Mr. Tavenner. All right. Let's try to get this point straight be-
fore we go any further.
The Chairman. Well, why did you use your brother's certificate
and not your own ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I was born in Canada, sir. My brother was born in
the United States.
The Chairman. I understand that.
Mr. CoRRiN. Well, people do foolish things when they are young,
Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Not quite that foolish. I do not think, when there
is no need for it. I just cannot understand, unless I do not know
what the Immigration laws say.
Mr. Taa'enner. Now, you gave your name to the Immigration au-
thorities, did you not, as being Sidney Kobrinsky ?
Mr. CoRBiN. That is correct, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. What was that date now. Counsel ?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBEST 1383
Mr. Tavenner. October 21, 1935.
(Counsel confers with witness.)
Mr. CoRBiN. Mr. Tavenner, that date, October 1935, I am trying
to get it in my mind. I was married, let's see, in 1934. I went back
to the wedding and shot right back. My wife became pregnant. I
went back to the farm.
Mr. Tavenner. The baby was born in July, was it not ?
Mr. CoRBiN. In July. I was heading for Indiana at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. You went to Indiana instead of New York?
Mr. CoRBiN. That's right. I was heading to where the whole family
had now settled in Elkhart., Ind.
Mr. Tavenner. That is right. Now, you offered to the Immigra-
tion authorities, to prove that you were Sidney Kobrinsky and that
5^ou were born in Brooklyn, a copy of his birth certificate ; did you not ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I do not remember, sir, whether it was a copy or the
original.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I offer in eA^dence and ask that
it be marked "Corbin Exhibit No. 1," a certified copy of the birth
certificate of Sidney Kobrinsky, and I will ask the witness to examine
it.
The Chairman. It may be a part of the record.
(Document marked "Corbin Exhibit No. 1" and retained in commit-
tee files.)
Mr. Corbin. Wliat is the question, sir ?
Mr. Tavenner. I ask you to examine it and ask you if that is a
copy of the birth certificate you presented to the Immigration and
Naturalization Service ?
Mr. Corbin. Well, sir, it has been since 1935. Hell, I don't know
whether that's the one or not. Excuse me.
Mr. ScHERER. May I interrupt just a minute? This is not the first
time you have discussed these dates since 1935, sir. You talked to the
Immigration officials numerous times about these.
Mr. Corbin. That is correct.
Mr. ScHERER. You are not refreshing your recollection as of this
moment for the first time since 1935. All these things have been point-
ed out to you on a number of occasions, have they not, by the Immi-
gration authorities ?
Mr. Corbin. That is right, sir, but I went back so many times it is
very difficult to remember. As you get older, sir, the thing seems to
be getting more vaguer and more vaguer.
Mr. ScHERER. But you led us to believe that this is the first time
you had this date refreshed since 1935.
Mr. Corbin. I beg to differ, sir. I am not trying to make you believe
anything. I am just trying to give you a reasonable, honest answer to
the best of my ability. I am not trying to mislead you in any way.
I am sorry if you think that, but I am just trying to do the best I can
and remember back 25 years or so, or 27 years.
Mr. Tavenner. Was anyone with you when you appeared before the
Immi^ation and Naturalization Service and gave them this certifi-
cate, or a copy of it ?
Mr. Corbin. I can't remember it, but I doubt it.
Mr. Tavenner. How did you obtain the copy or the original certifi-
cate?
13S4 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. CoRBiN. Got it from my brother.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. In Canada ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Right.
(Counsel confers with witness.)
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Corbin, the committee, during the course of its
investigation, received testimony from Mr. Joseph C. Kennedy, from
Rockford, 111., former business manager of Local 707 of the United
Furniture Workers of America, who admitted membership in the
Communist Party from 1937 until his entrance into the Armed Forces
of the United States in 1943 and for a very short period after his dis-
charge.
In the course of his testimony, Mr. Kennedy advised the committee
of his close association with you and his joint business ventures with
you. Mr. Kennedy stated under oath that you advised him that you
had been a member of the Young Communist League in Canada before
coming to the United States.
His testimony on this subject is as follows :
Question. Did he tell you anything of his activities in Canada before coming
to this country?
Answer. He told me he had been a member of the Young Communist League
at the University of Manitoba in Winnipeg and he had some relatives that
were rather active in the leftwing movement around Winnipeg.
Question. Did he say "Young Communist League," or "leftwing movement"?
Answer. He stated the Young Communist League.
Question. Did he mention what relatives?
Answer. He mentioned an uncle, but I don't know if it was maternal or pater-
nal.
Question. Do you know whether the uncle's name was Corbin, or whether it
was Pavlov?
Answer. I really don't know.
Question. Did he tell you how long he had been engaged in Communist Party
activities in the Young Communist League?
Answer. No, he didn't.
Question. Did he tell you anything about the nature of his activities while
afl51iated with that group ?
Answer. No. As he explained it to me, it was while he was a student at the
University of Manitoba and that is all I know about it.
Mr. Tavenner. Is it not true that you endeavored to conceal your
true identity when you entered this country because of your Commu-
nist affiliations referred to here?
Mr. Hooker. Mr. Chairman, before he answers that question, I
would like to address myself to the chairman and the committee for a
moment, if I might.
Mr. ScHERER. I object.
The Chairman. Yes. Let us go on. Answer the question. If you
do not want the Avitness to answer, then tell him. Advise him of his
rights.
Mr. Corbin. May I have the last part of the question, sir?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. My question was. Did you not endeavor to
conceal your true identity when you entered this country on October
21, 1935. because of your previous Communist affiliations in Canada?
Mr. Corbin. Mr. Tavenner and INIr. Chairman and Members of the
Committee, I will start out by saying I never was a member of the
Young Communist League of Canada. I was never a member of the
Commimist Party of the United States.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1385
If you knew where I lived on the farm, my father was a conserva-
tive, member of the Conservative Party. My father was a member of
the Conservative Party.
The Chairman, I think you answered the question. You said you
were not a member.
Mr. CoRBiN. Absokitely not.
The Chairman. What was this uncle's name ? Pavlov ? Was that
your uncle ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I have an uncle by that name.
The Chairman. What is his first name ?
Mr. Corbin. There is a few of them.
The Chairman. Name them all.
ISlr. CoRBiN. There is Ben.
Mr. SoHERER. What is Ben's last name ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Pavlov. There is Philip Pavlov. Uncles you are re-
ferring to ? I have those two uncles with that name.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell the last name ?
Mr. CoRBiN. P-a-v-1-o-v. I didn't know a Young Communist
League. I wouldn't know what it looked like. I didn't know what it
was like in, when I was in Canada.
The Chairman. Did you know this man that Mr. Tavenner men-
tioned ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes, I certainly do, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you state to Mr. Kennedy at any time that you
were a member of the Young Communist League of Canada ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Absolutely not ; no, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. According to Mr. Buck, who wrote a book entitled
Thirty Years^ 1922 to 1952^ The Story of The Communist Movement
In Canada^ by Tim Buck, reference is made to the fact that there was
a strong center of the Young Communist League at Winnipeg.
Do you know anything about the existence of this organization
there?
Mr. CoRBiN. I don't know who Tim Buck is. I never heard of that
organization. The only organization I belonged to at the University
of JSIanitoba was the Canadian Officers Training Corps.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been convicted of any criminal offense
in Canada ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir; never been arrested in my life in Canada.
Mr. Scherer. Did you say never been arrested in your life, or did
you say never arrested in your life in Canada?
Mr. CoRiiiN. In Canada.
iNIr. Tavenner. Were you subsequently arrested on March 17, 1936,
in Detroit, for illegal entry into the United States?
Mr. CoRBiN. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you deported as a result of this proceeding?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir.
Mr. Ta\-enner. Were you permitted voluntarily to return to Can-
ada?
Mr. CoRBiN. I will try to explain that to you. I never could figure
it out to this day. I was let out and I was told that I could reside in
the United States as long as I wanted to, but I had to behave myself
and try to be a good citizen. I asked him, "How does one become a
1386 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
citizen?" He says, "You are going to have difficulty because in order
to become a citizen you must leave this countiy, go back to Canada, and
start all over again and enter legally, but you must never leave this
country if you intend to return unless you get permission. You must
notify us that you are leaving," which I subsequently did.
Mr. Tavenner. I v;ould like again to refer at this point to Exhibit
No. 1, the birth certificate of your brother. I notice at the top it was
originally made out in the name of Samuel Cobrinsky, and that is
stricken out and the name Sidney Kobrinsky appears above it.
Can you explain that ?
Mr. CoRBix. All I can explain to you, sir, is what I picked up in the
family.
My father entered the United States first. Now, I believe in his job
he was engaged, or if I am not mistaken or can't recollect, in making
chandeliers.
In those days they used to make these big glass lamps, chandeliers,
and somehow he got an infection in his leg by the glass or something
and he left New York and headed out to Canada where he had a
brother. Well, when my father lived in New York he went under the
name of Cobrinsky. After he had resided for a year or two after he
got married, he changed it to Corbin. I don't know if he went through
it legally, but he just adopted that name.
When he arrived in Canada he discovered that his brother there
spelled his name K-O-B, and the brother already established on the
farm, he said it looked kind of silly with a "C," so he went back and
took the name that his older brother spelled, the way his older brother
spelled it.
Mr. Tavenner. And in 1959 the name was legally changed from
Cobrinsky to Kobrinsky ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Who changed that ?
Mr. Tavenner. By order of the court in Canada in 1959. I offer
in evidence as Corbin Exhibits Nos. 2 and 3, the records of that.
(Documents marked "Corbin Exhibits Nos. 2 and 3," respectively,
and retained in committee files.)
Mr. Tavenner. Your mother's name was Pavlov, apparently, as
you have stated that the uncle's name was Pavlov. That is correct,
isn't it?
Mr. Corbin. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Was there any relationship with Vitali G. Pavlov ?
Mr. Corbin. Wlio?
Mr. Tavenner. V-I-T-A-L-I G. Pavlov, P-A-V-L-O-V, of
Canada ?
Mr. Corbin. Never heard of that name.
Mr. Tavenner. Were any of your uncles by the name of Pavlov
engaged in Connnunist Party activity in Canada ?
Mr. Corbin. The answer is "No," but the Pavlovs who are my uncles
resided in New York. There were no Pavlovs in Canada, with the
exception of one short period that I can recall, when I was a child one
of the youngest brothers was called Philip and he came over to visit
my mother and he married a girl from Canada and my dad gave him
about 140 or 160 acres of land and about 10 head of cattle to start
him off, but he had come from New York and he lasted about 6
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1387
months. He couldn't go for these hard winters so he took right off
and left his wife in Canada and went back to New York and never
came back to see his wife since then.
Mr. TA^'ENNER. Were any of your uncles on your father's side, the
Kobrinskys, spelled "K," engaged in Connnunist Party activity in
Canada ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir. As a matter of fact, they are much more
conservatives.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, was there a subsequent proceeding held at
Winnipeg, Canada, before the Immigration Service on August 24,
1936, at which time you were refused admission to the United States?
Mr. CoRBiN. I can't ascertain the dates.
The Chairman. Were you ever refused admission to the United
States?
Mr. CoRBiN. Categorically, no. I went up to see the American
consular — I remember his name ; he was a very fine fellow by the name
of Erickson. He was the American consul there. And I came back
not for the purpose of coming back and entering legally. My mother
was dying of cancer, so I notified Immigration I had to go home, so I
went home, knowing that once I got to Canada I could never get back
in again unless I did it legally. Then I had discussed with my mother
and father my future, more or less, and they were suggesting that I
come back and work the farm because by that time my brother had
been gone, and I said that I didn't think that I was particularly
fond of the farm and that I was going back to the United States, so my
dad advised me, "Why don't you grow up and vStop horsing around
and go to Immigration — you may have to do it in a year or two — ^and
go in and start doing things correctly for a change instead of doing
the way you have been. iVpply, and get back and try to be a good
citizen."
So I went to the American consul, and he informed me at that time
that I couldn't enter the United States because there was a lot of unem-
ployment, a lot of people out of work, and that I would have to prove
that I would be self-supporting.
Inasmuch as I had no job at the time, he couldn't see how he could
let me in, but he suggested to me that, if I could raise some money — I
forget the amount, maybe you have the record there — to show that I
would be self-sufficient, he might consider letting me in, so I went to
my dad, told him the story, and asked him if he would loan me the
money.
He says, "No, sir. From now on you better start using your head."
But I talked to my mother and she suggested that I go to one of my
uncles who was a doctor and ask him if he would help me, so I went
to him and told him I was going to cross the line and was trying to
apply for entry, but I had to show that I was self-supporting.
Well, he said he would take a gamble on me and he said, "Even
though you got yourself fouled up." He thought that my parents had
taught me the difference between right and wrong that would snap
me out of it, so he loaned me the money in cash. I went over to Mr.
Erickson, the American consul — I will never forget that — walked in
his office and laid the money out. He said, "Get that out of here."
He said, ""Wliere did you get it?" I says, "Got it from my uncle."
S7845— 62 11
1388 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
He says, "If your uncle can trust you with all that money, I think the
United States can take a chance on you, too, and I am going to let you
in."
And there were a lot of documents to fill out and I can't remember
them, but, anyway. I got a permanent visa and came in.
Mr. Ta\'enner. You came in on Xovember 27, 1936, 1 believe, didn't
you?
Mr. CoRBiN. If you say that I suppose that's it, yes.
Mr. Tavexner. Tliat's the approximate date? At Noyes, Minn.?
Mr. CoRBiN. That is correct.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Wliere did you take up your residence in the United
States on this admission ?
Mr. CoRBiN. 1936, was it ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. CoRBiN. I am just trying to recollect. Indiana. That's where
I went. I'm pretty sure of that.
Mr. TA^^NNER. "Wliere in Indiana ?
Mr. CoRBiN. It was Elkhart or Mishawaka, one of those towns. I
can't remember specifically, or South Bend, that area.
Mr. Tavenner. At a later period, did you become a member of the
Armed Forces of the United States ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes. Yes, I did.
Mr. Tavenner. What was that date ?
Mr. CoRBiN. It was, I believe, in August 1943.
Mr. Tavexxer. Now, will you please at this time give the commit-
tee a statement of your employment record from the time of this ad-
mission to the United States and tlie time you entered the Armed
Forces ?
Mr. Corbix- I have some notes here. May I refer to them ?
Mr. Tavexxer. Surely.
Mr. Corbix. That is from the time I came in? I have here, gen-
tlemen : I entered the country on a permanent visa approximately in
1937. I was off a year here. 1936. And I stayed with my father-
in-law a short time. I am vague as to sequence of events. Anyway,
my first paying job I had was with a fruit company that handled
Sunkist oranges in South Bend, Ind., and on a commission basis.
I stayed there for a while, and we had a sales meeting and the sales
manager just returned from Edinburg, Tex., where this company had
great fruit fields and was saying what a gi'eat up and coming country
was Texas.
Mr. Tavexxer. Let me suggest you not go as much in detail. We
just want it in a general way, and your going into such detail is a
needless consumption of time, but I don't want to cut you off.
Mr. Corbix. I was impressed by his speech about Texas so I quit.
I went to Texas and had about $400 so I bought some Maiden Blush
apples from a trucker from Joplin, Mo., and opened wp a fruit stand
in the Fort Worth market, my first venture into business. The market
opened about 4:00 in the morning, and just as I was supplying my
Maiden Blush apples, which is a green apple with a red facing, in
come four truck loads of Mexican apples, bright and red. I was out
of business by noon, so I hitchhiked back to Indiana and tried to get
my job back again, and he admitted I was a good salesman, but I was
a little cocl^ and he says, "Where are you staying?'' I said, "I stayed
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1389
at the YMCA last night." He said, "111 tell you what, Corbin, you
come back in 2 weeks when you are real hungry. I'll give you a job."
I told him to go to — fly a kite.
Mr. Tavenner. You are going into a gi'eat deal of detail unneces-
sarily.
Mr. CoRBiN. After that job I hung around and sold fruit for various
companies. I can't remember. And my father died at that time.
My father died at that time, and I left Indiana and went to seek out
my wife and child who were in New York.
Mr .Tavenner. When was that ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Let's see. You say I arrived in thirty —
Mr. Tavenner. November 27, 1936.
Mr. CoRBiN. I can't remember the year. It was 1937, 1938, some-
where around there.
Mr. Tavenner. You think you went to New York in 1937 or 1938 ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Sometime around there, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. All right.
Mr. CoRBiN. And I came back to see the child and they suggested —
I talked to my wife and we said we'll give it another whirl, try it again.
Well, I was in New York City and I guess it was too big for me. I
wasn't too particular happy, and — you were asking about the jobs.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Yes, that is all I am asking you, how you were
employed.
Mr. CoRBiN. My first job in New York City, and my only job, was
answering an ad to distribute political leaflets. It was a Republican
running in one of the boroughs in Manhattan. I answered the ad
and it paid $3 a day to distribute the leaflets to all the apartment
houses. The first night I came to get my $3 I was dead tired and
I mentioned to one of the coworkers, "Boy, I sure worked hard." He
says, "You're crazy."
Mr. Tavenner. Let me remind you again we are not interested in
these details. We want to know how you were employed.
Mr. CoRBiN. That is what I did. I passed out leaflets for one day
and that was it.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat other employment did you have in New
York City?
Mr. CoRBiN, I got a job, I believe, in one of the fruit markets un-
loading cars of grapefruit and oranges. I did that for about a month
and I picked up odd jobs, mostly physical labor. Then I sold china-
ware, mattresses, and a few other things. Then I went back to visit
my brother, who had by that time graduated in medicine.
Mr. Tavenner. In Canada ?
Mr. Corbin. In Canada.
Mr. Tavenner. All right. Wlien did you leave New York to go
back to Canada ?
Mr. Corbin. Well, I'll tell you exactly. Well, I haven't got the
dates, but you probably have them.
I was having a disagreement with my wife and I said I was going
back to Canada, that I wanted to see my family, hadn't seen them
since my father had died, and there was some question about some
property. The farm hadn't been settled yet and there might be some-
t hing belonging to me, because my brother had already called me in
Indiana when my father died, saying that the farm was mine solely
1390 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
if I would work it, but if I didn't work it, they were goini; to divide
it among the four of us, so he says, "You got to make up your mind
right now because there is cows to milk." So I came back and I am
trying to remember the year. Let's see. You probably liave a record
because at that time I had an alien's reentry permit, and everytime
I left I notified the Federal Government that I was leaving, so you
probably have the dates better than I have, but I went to visit him
and
Mr. Tavexner. Well, what is the approximate date ? You certainly
know how long you stayed in New York when you went there to see
your wife?
Mr. CoRBiN. I am just trying to figure out. Approximately 1937
or 1938. I can't remember.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. You said you went there in approximately 1937 or
1938. How long did you stay there ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Oh, I would say I stayed there^ — again it is hard to
recollect — maybe 6 months, 7 months, maybe a few months longer.
I can't remember.
Mr. Ta VENDER. Did you have any other employment in that 6 or 7
months, in addition to what you have told us ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No. To the best of my knowledge, no. I might have
some other odd jobs.
Mr. Tavkxner. How long did you remain in Canada ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I went to visit my brother in Saskatchewan. I would
say I was tliere .about 2 weeks, if that long.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Then when you returned to this country where did
you go?
Mr. CoRBiN. My first stop was Minneapolis.
Mr. Ta\tenner. How long were you there? A matter of days,
was it?
Mr. CoRBiN. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Weeks? Months?
Mr. CoRBiN. No. As a matter of fact, that became my residence for
quite a number of years.
Mr. TA^^:NNER. Ail right. For how many years ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Let me see. It all depends on whether I came back
there in 1937 or 1938. I'm not sure of the date. But I would say I
stayed there until approximately 1940, 1941, somewhere thereabouts.
(At this point Chairman Walter left the hearing room.)
Mr. Tavenner. All right. How were you employed during that
period of time from 1 937 to 1941 ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Well, I was in the advertising business. I stmnbled
into it. I read an ad which said "Salesman wanted and we pay every
night," and I was broke so I answered the ad. I was selling ads for
a Norwegian Ski Club to try to build a subscription. They were
putting on a program.
Mr. Taa^nner. How long were you so employed ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Advertising?
Mr. Tavenner. By that company ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Oh, maybe a couple of weeks.
Mr. Ta\'enner. All right. Wliat was your next employment ?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1391
Mr. CoRBiN. Well, by then, wlien I worked for this advertising com-
pany, there were people drifting in and out, advertising men. One
fellow said, "When this is through, Paul, how about working for me?'"
"What are you selling ?"
He was selling ads for the Republican Party paper. They were
practically dead there. I guess the Democrats were in there so I said,
"All right," and I sold that for a while. That wasn't so good, so I
shifted to another promoter. Then I sold veterans and service clubs
and Rotary, Elks, anything that came along, and then I drifted into
Labor Day picnics.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Into what?
Mr. CoRBiN. Labor Day picnics, things of that nature. And while
we were in JNIinneapolis, the promoter would mo^•e to Dakota. He
would have a promotion into Dakota or Wisconsin or some part of
Minnesota that I would go with them. Then I went into business for
myself one winter, the last winter. I bought themiometers and went
up to the northern part, of Minnesota, where it was cold, and put the
thermometers in a drugstoi-e and sold ads, and the druggist would
get the free thermometer and I would keep the revenue from the ad-
vertising. I did all kinds of advertising, anything that was salable.
Then — what was your question ?
Mr. Tavenner. My question was how you wei-e employed up until
the time you went into the Armed Forces and you have described your
employment at Minneapolis.
Mr. CoRBiN. Then I got in partners with a fellow who had an idea
of selling ads in the union hall, what was called a bulletin board, and
he said, "If you go with me, Paul" — I think his name was Lancaster,
L. W. Lancaster — "we will split 50-50," I says, "Who's going to do
the selling?"
Mr. Tavenner. I haven't asked you the detail of what your contract
was. I am trying to find out what the nature of your employment was.
Mr. CoRBiN. Selling ads.
Mr. Tavenner. And how long did that continue with this man?
Mr. CoRBiN. Well, we went to Rockford, 111.
Mr. Tavenker. Wlien did you go to Rockford ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I can't remember the exact year, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, you said you were in Minneapolis up until
1941.
Mr. CoRBiN. Then let me backtrack. I joined the Marines in 1943.
I would say roughly about 1940, because I remember I was in Rockford
on Pearl Harbor day, which was December 1941, so it might have been
the latter part of 1939 or early part of 1940, sometime during that
period, to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. SciiERER. Did this fellow Lancaster go with you ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes, he went with me to Rockford, and I did the sell-
ing and he did the collecting. We were getting 50-50, so I told Bill
that the average rate of pay for collections was 10 percent and I didn't
see why I should do all the selling and give him 50 percent, so we broke
Mr. Tavenner. Was that selling in connection with advertising for
a labor union or labor council in Rockford ?
1392 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. CoRBiN, Eookford CIO District CovinciL ri<rht.
Mr. Tavenxek Tlmt's what took you to Rockford ^
Mr. CoRBix. Right. And Bill left and I stayed beliind, and that's
where I met Mr. Joe Kennedy.
Mr. Tavenner. All right. What was your next employment ?
Mr. CoRBTX. Joe Kennedy said, "A^Hiy don't yon do something use-
ful ? Get youreelf a decent job instead of these gimmicks, chicken
one day and feathers the next, you are a young fellow, a lot of energy."
He said, "We need a fellow, an organizer, for the Retail Clerks." I
said, "Wliat does it pay?" "Well, it pays $35 a week," he says, "but
it's steady."
So I took that job with the Retail Clerks, and that didn't last
very long because I got in a fight with the Teamsters Union. They
claimed they belonged to them, the Retail Clerks belonged to them,
and I worked for the CIO retail clerks and the rest of the CIO
imion in that town, T recollect, was getting along pretty good with the
Teamsters. They didn't want me to irritate them, so the first thing
I knew I was out of a job, and then Joe Kennedy said, "We're inter-
ested in organizing some plants, unorganized plants, in Rockford.
furniture plants," which is a great furniture center. He says, "I
can't do it because I am business agent, so I'll get you a job working for
the international union. The local can't afford to pay you because I
am the business agent and all the money is collected in dues and
goes to the office girl and myself, so I'll recommend vou to the in-
ternational union for the purpose solely of organizing.'' I remember
the plant specifically. It was Illinois Cabinet.
Mr. Tavtix'xetj. Wliat was that nnme?
Mr. CoRBTx^. Illinois Cabinet. They make cabinets for little type-
writers. And I spent considerable time organizing it and 4 days
before the election, I recall, just to lead up to my next job, the Furni-
ture Workers withdrew their petition for an election. I said to Joe.
"Wliat the hell gives here ? We got this made. We could win. These
people want to join the union."
He says, "We'll make that decision, Corbin." So we got in an
argument and I was out of a job again. Then the Rockford CIO
Council hired me and the UAW, which is auto workers union ; and,
oh, I would help put out their little paper, monthly paper, and that
lasted for a little whole. Then one day a fellow came in by the name
of Emil Costello. He was a representative of the United Steelworkers
of America and he was making a survey of the plants in Rockford
as to whether the steelworkers had any jurisdiction interest in them.
Incidentally, the auto workers were doing that also. And Joe Ken-
nedy asked him if he could find me a job somewhere, and Emil started
talkinpf to me and said, "Where are you from?" I told him I was
from Canada. He said, "Yes, I believe I can get you a job."
I said, ""\"\niere?" He said the long-shoremen's. I said, "The Long-
shoremen's ITnion ? Hell, they are out in San Francisco."
He says, "No. they are coming out to the West and orp-anizing ware-
houses" And I said, "Well, there's no wai'ehouses here."
Well, there was a plant in Freeport that the auto workers had tried
to organize on several occasions and had lost.
Mr. Tavexxer. W. T. Rawleijrh Co. ?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1393
Mr. CoRBiN. Eight. Aiid Charley Fane, who was a representative
for the auto workers suggested that their union was no longer inter-
ested in it, but he had a personal interest because he had failed to
organize it and he would like to see that plant organized. They had
lost tlie election to the Bookbinders Union, AFL. He says, "I think
Paul could do a terrific job,"' and he recommended me. I promised to
help. He had all the names, the leads. ''You help me,"
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien was that ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Again I can't remember, 1939, 1940, somewhere around
there.
Mr. Tavenner. 1942 is our information, according to the date of
the contract.
Mr. CoRBix. All right. Then I went out there and Emil Costello
and Joe Kennedy called somebody in Chicago where the Warehouse-
men's Union had already established an office, and they came out to
interview me and they offered me $40 a week, and he would pay my
hotel bills for 30 days in Freeport, and from then on I was on my own,
so I went to Freeport and organized the workers and we won the
election.
Mr. Tavenker. Were you living at Rockford at the time you did
this work at Freeport ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir, I lived in Freeport, and I stayed and I orga-
nized the plant and won the election. I didn't stay with the union very
long because I got in an argument with them. At that time that
union had set up what was called a Bridges defense fund, and all kinds
of literature used to come, and they sent me a letter to raise money
at union meetings for this Bridges defense fimd and pass these leaflets
out, which was sanctioned by the CIO. I was trying to play down
having Bridges in Freeport because he had a bad smell and I says,
"I'm not going around — these people are interested in wages and hours
and working conditions. They are not interested with the trouble
Harry Bridges is in. That is not their battle. Our battle is to get
more dough and better working conditions."
Well, 2 days later I was out of Freeport and transferred into
Chicago.
Mr. Taat:nner. "Wliat work did you do in Chicago ?
Mr. CoRBix. Well, I stayed with the Warehousemen's union, and I
wasn't feeling very well. I mean they looked at me as if — well, they
would have staff meetings and sometimes invite me and sometimes
they wouldn't and they would go for coffee and they would never invite
me, and I was just sort of a lone duck, so my family back in Canada
were writing me to come to Canada to join the Army. The war was
on. So I thought, "nuts." I have always had a great admiration for
the Marines. I remember when I was a boy my mother took me to see
Lon Chaney in "Tell It to the Marines," and so off I went to Chicago
and away I went and I quit the Longshoremen's union.
Mr. Tavexner. All right. That is your employment up until the
time you went into the armed services ?
Mr. CoRBix. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
Mr. Tavexxer. You mentioned your work in Rockford in comiec-
tion with the advertising plan to sell for the CIO Council.
1394 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. CoRBiN. Right.
Mr. Tavenner. In this connection I want to read to you a few
paragraphs from the testimony of ]Mi'. Kennedy :
Question. What were the circumstances under which you met him?
That means you.
Answer. I was head of this large union. It was a full-time job, of course.
Mr. Corbin and some other man, a man by the name of Lancaster, came there
with the CIO Council with some advertising scheme so that we could make
some money for our new council, so we employed them on a commission basis.
After they were through, Mr. Corbin just sort of hung around and performed
all sorts of volunteer jobs, legwork, helped pass out handbills, and the usual
type of Jimmy Higgins work which is associated with trade union organizing.
Ultimately, he would sort of get on the payroll for a month or two when we
had some special job. He just sort of hung around there and made himself
useful.
At the time that this testimony refers to, when you were assisting
Mr. Kennedy there, who was business manager of that local, did you
know Mr, Kennedy was a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Corbin. Absolutely not. However, at one time there was a de-
tective by the name of Clarence Read in Rockford. I went to pay a
traffic ticket, and he called me in and he said that he had received
an anonymous telephone call that I was wanted in New York City
and he was going to hold me for 3, 4 days, take my fingerprints, and
find out if I was really wanted in New York. I says, "Go right
ahead." I stayed there 3, 4 days, and he questioned me, when I en-
tered the country and all those things, and then he called me in
one day and said, "Paul, I have checked you out with some of the
labor people that I know in Rockford, substantial people. They say
that you are a clean fellow, but that you are living at Joe Kennedy's
house paying rent."' I said, "That's right.'' He said "Joe Kennedy,
to our kno^Yledge, is a Communist. You are not. We know that.
We have checked with the newspaper people there, everybody that
would know the labor movement from the Guild, others, and they
say that as a delegate to the Council that you are an independent
voter." I says, "Well, who's the guy that called ?"
He says, "We got an anonymous call, and I think it was Mr. Ken-
nedy. I think he wants you out of town."
I says, "Are you sure about that ?"
He says, "Right."
Isays,"Wliy?"
He says, "I'm just teasing you, Paul, if I were you I would move
out of his house."
I says, "Frankly, Clarence, I think Joe Kennedy is a nut. He keeps
talking about things. I think he is one of those sour on the world."
Mr. Tavenner. You say you thought he was a nut ?
Mr. Corbin. Right.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Well, you went in business with him later, didn't
you, for a period of years ?
Mr. Corbin. That is right. I will explain that to you. Do you
want me to answer this ?
Mr. Tavenner. Not at this time. We will give you an opportunity
later. We don't want to interrupt at this moment.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1395
Mr. CoRBiN. I said, "Clarence, how in the hell do you tell a Com-
munist ? For crying out loud, everybody is bitching about low wages,
sour grapes, grievances. How can you tell one from the other?"
He says, "I'll tell you. You stay with Charley Fane and Hei-schel
Wolfe and keep away from Joe." ^
That was the first time there were any indications as to the presence
of a Communist. So I went to Charley Fane and Herschel Wolfe
and told them my conversation with this Mr. Read.
The}' said, "Yes, Paul, they checked with us about you."
I says, "Why didn't you tell me these things ?"
"Well," they said, "What the hell. You were broke and, further-
more, Corbin, you voted with us most of the time so we didn't partic-
ularly care. You voted with us in the Council so you were no bother
to us,'' and Joe actually never liked me for the simple reason, in the
labor movement, they used to have Labor Day picnics and I would get
the concession for some of the games, and he thought it was a terrible
thing. One day he says, "Shut this thing down. We have a guy
making a speech.''
I says, "Well, I got more people at my booth than they have lis-
tening to your speaker,'' and that is one of the times we had a fight on.
So actually Joe Kennedy, I think, was a little jealous of me, frankly.
I wouldn't believe Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Tavenner, on a stack of Bibles.
Mr. Ta\-enxer. Let me read this to you. You referred to a time
of being arrested.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Ta\'enner. You referred to a time at which you were arrested
there at Rockford. Did I understand you to refer to that ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Well, sir, he didn't call it an arrest. He was just going
to hold me for 4 days. He said, "We got this anonymous call, Paul,
and we want to check you out."
Mr. Tavenner. This is what Mr. Kennedy says about that. He had
been asked the question :
Question. What were the circumstances under which Paul Corbin told you of
his activities in Canada in the Young Communist League?
1 Affidavit:
State of Virginia
Countii of Arlington, ss;
1. Colonel C. E. Read, USA (Ret.), being duly sworn according to law, depose and say
as follows :
1,. I was a member of the Detective Bureau of the Police Department of Rockford,
Illinois, from 19'40 to 194,2.
2. I have read that part of the testimony of Paul Corbin before the Committee on
Un-American Activities at a hearing on July 2, 1962, in which he alleges that at the
time of his arrest in Rockford, Illinois. I advised him that I had received an anonymous
telephone call that he was wanted in New York ; that later I called him in one day and
said I had checked him out with some of the labor people and they advised me he is a
clean fellow ; that Joe Kenne;dy. to our knowledge, is a Communist ; and that I thought
we got the anonymous call from Kennedy.
3. Insofar as the foregoing is concerned, I wish to state most emphatically that Mr.
Corbin's version of our meeting and conversations is incorrect insofar as it relates to (a)
the source of the information which led to his arrest; (b) the alleged statement that to
our knowledge Joe Kennedy is a Communist ; (c) the alleged reference to being informed
he had been checked out with labor people and was a clean fellow: (d) and to any
admonishments concerning his future associations with Mr. Kennedy.
Sworn to and subscribed this .Slst day of August, 1962.
(Signed) Col. C. B. Read,
(Typed) Col. C. E. Read, USA (Ret.)
Sworn to and subscribed by Col. C. E. Read, USA (Ret.) before me in my County and
State aforesaid, this .31st day of August, 1962.
Clarence S. Edwards, Jr.,
Notary Public.
[SEAL]
My commission expires April 30, 1963.
1396 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Answer. It was shortly after he was arrested — this incident we have been
discussing here — and he heard that I was involved in some way with the left-
wing union, this leftwing union and the Communist Party, and he was attempt-
ing to pi-ohably ingratiate himself with me. This is just supposition.
May I just add something voluntarily ?
Question. Yes.
Answer. The reason Mr. Corbin said he lived with me was we had considerable
political influence, the Furniture Workers T'nion. in this town. The president
of the union was chairman of the board of the police and fire commissioners of
Rockford, 111.
Question. And he had been president of your union?
Answer. Yes. And he had been a party member at one time.
Question. Do you mean Communist Party member?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Corbin. May I answer that, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, any answer you desire to make.
Mr. Corbin. It just goes to show you what a liar and a great artist
at deception these Communists are. If you would check out the
record, Mr. Tavenner, you will find when that Mr. Rollins was police
commissioner, appointed, I no longer lived with Mr. Kennedy. The
only reason I moved in with Mr. Kennedy is they owned a house and
they had no children. Joe and Marion had no children and they
had this big house, and one of the inducements for me to stay in
Rockford was that Joe said, "With what the Retail Clerks pay you,
I will charge you $3 a week rent. You can stay at my house.''
That was one of the inducements he got for me to stay in Rockford
originally, because he had this big house, no children, and he invited
me in his house. You didn't muscle yourself in or jump into a man's
home. He invited me there, and I stayed there and I left Joe Ken-
nedy's place after Clarence Read told me that lie was a Communist.
Mr. Tavenner. You didn't want to associate with a Communist?
Mr. Corbin. No, I didn't say that.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, that's the inference you were leaving.
Mr. Corbin. What I am saying is — yes, I would say I wouldn't
want to live in his house, definitely.
Mr. Tavenner. When you found he was a Comminiist you didn't
want to have anything more to do with him ?
Mr. Corbin. As far as living at his house is concerned, that is
correct.
Mr. Ta\tenner. But you would go in business with him, wouldn't
you?
Mr. Corbin. I will explain that later, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. All right.
Mr. Sgherer. Just a minute. We have been talking about an
arrest and that you were wanted in New York. For what were you
wanted in New York ?
Mr. Corbin. Sir, Mr. Read told me that he Iiad received an anony-
mous telephone call that I was wanted in New York and he wanted to
investigate me. Would I mind stepping in ? I says, "Go ahead. In-
vestigate me."
Mr. Sgherer. Actually, there was a warrant sworn out for your
arrest for desertion, wasn't there ?
Mr. Corbin. At that time ? No time was there a warrant sworn out
for desertion. Excuse me, sir. Before I left my wife for the last
time, I Avent to visit her and see the child on one Saturday and as I
was going into the apartment house, rather coming out of the apart-
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1397
ment house after seeing the baby, there was a New York policeman
who handed me a paper, and on the paper was a warrant that I was
leaving the jurisdiction of the court at the time I went home to see
about the property.
( Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. ScHERER. Do you mean to tell me you were never detained at
Rockford, 111., as a result of action taken by court authorities?
Mr. CoRBiN. That is correct, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. You never were detained there?
Mr. CoRBiN. That is con-ect, sir.
Mr. Doyle. Well, did they put you in jail at that time ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes, sir, bare for 3, 4 days until they investigated me.
Mr. ScHERER. Put in jail on an anonymous phone call ? Is that what
you are telling us i
Mr. CoRBiN. I am telling exactly what Mr. Read, the detective, told
me, why he w\as locking me up.
Mr. Tavenner. Is this the same Mr. Read that you referred to a
while ago as having given you certain information regarding Mr.
Kennedy ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes ; excuse me, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. CoRBiN. There were two policemen who picked me up as I paid
this traffic ticket, and I can't remember whether one of them w^as Mr.
Read. They took me downstairs to where Mr. Read did the convers-
ing with me.
Mr. Tavenner. Does the name Forson, F-o-r-s-o-n, refresh your
recollection?
Mr. CoRBiN. Xo.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know Mr. R. A. Johnson, the sergeant of
detectives ? Were you acquainted with him ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No.
Mr. Tavenner. I have before me a photostatic copy of a report of
the Department of Police by Read and Forson.
Mr. CoRBiN. Right.
Mr. Tavenner. In which they say in a directive to R. A. Jolinson,^
sergeant of detectives :
Upon information received from you we arrested the above subject on an
investigation charge as he left the Police Court Room this A.M.
In other words, you were arrested, were you not
Mr. CoRBiN. Mr. Tavenner, that statement
Mr. Tavenner. After
Mr. CoRBiN. I walked
Mr. Tavenner. Just a minute. I want to get my question in and
then give you all the time to answer it. Weren't you arrested in ac-
cordance wdth this report as you left the courtroom after having
answered the minor charge that you said was presented against you i
Mr. CoRBiN. Mr. Tavenner, I am not a lawyer. If you call it an
arrest, I will agree to arrest. I w^as locked up for 4 days.
Mr. Scherer. On an anonymous telephone call ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Not to me ; just what Mr. Read said.
Mr. Scherer. I understand.
1398 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
^Ir. Coiujix. He picked me up. There was no warrant issued to me,
no papers, just says, "Come along." If that's arrest
Mr. Doyle (presiding). May I inquire at this point, what was the
charge, if any, upon which this man was arrested? If you have a
record of it, Mr. Tavenner, let me have it. I have done a lot of police
work. This is not an unusual circumstance in my experience. This
man may have sutFei-ed. Give me the record, please. Wliat was he
arrested for, if anything?
Mr. Ta\'enner. It had to do with a complaint filed in the city of
New York relating to support, according to my recollection.
Mr. Doyle. Support for a minor child ?
Mr. Tavtinner. I think for his wife.
Mr. Doyle. Does the record show it was a charge ?
Mr. Tavenner. I don't have the record which shows a charge.
Mr. Doyle. I thought you said you had some record of it.
Mr. Tavenner. I did and I read to you what he said.
I will ask the witness. Were you held there because of a charge
that was filed against you in New York City ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Mr. Tavenner, I was held there because Clarence Read
told me he received an anonymous phone call that I was wanted in
New York, they wanted to investigate me. I said, "Fine." That's all
I know, sir.
Mr. ScHEBER. Mr. Chairman, I have also practiced law for 30 years
and I have never known of any police official holding a man on an
anonymous telephone call for 4 days.
Mr. Doyle. He may have been held on a warrant, but let's see what
the warrant said, if anything. If he was held on a nonsupport charge,
that is understandable. It is understandable. He may not have been
supporting the baby under court order. I can understand that. He
and his wife were apparently divorced for years.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I am not aware of the existence of
a warrant for arrest
Mr. ScTiERER. The testimony of his former wife was that she did
file a warrant for his arrest on desertion. That is in the record now.
Mr. Ta\'enner, In the city of New York.
Mr. ScHERER. And that is what he was held for out there.
Mr. Tavenner. Surely.
Mr. Sciterer. Let's not beat around the bush any more on this.
Mr. Doyle. It is the facts that I want.
Mr. CoRBTN. Mr. Tavenner, I was not held for that because they let
me out in 4 days.
Mr. Hooker. I would like the record to show, Mr. Chairman, that
simply because his wife testified here that she swore out a warrant for
him in New York and the fact that he was arrested in Rockford and
he says
Mr. Sciterer. I object to the counsel making a statement.
Mr. Doyle. May I state, in the absence of Mr. Walter, the chairman
of the full committee — he asked me to act as chairman — we don't
permit arguments before the committee, with all due respect to mem-
bers of the bar. We simply don't have time for it. You understand ?
Mr. Hooker. Yes, sir. I am just trying to represent my man.
IVIr. DoTT.E. I realize that and if this were a court that would be
wonderful, but we are not a court.
Proceed.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1399
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Joseph C. Kennedy testified at some length
regarding your interest
Mr. ScHERER. Are you going to leave this subject ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. ScHERER. The fact is that at the time you were arrested, on
what you say was an anonymous telephone call, at Kockf ord you were
not living at Joseph Kennedy's house, were you 'i
You gave his address but you were not living there ?
Mr. CoRBiN. 1 didn't say that. I said I left after Clarence Read
told me
Mr. ScHERER. I am asking you if it isn't a fact that you were not
living at Joseph Kennedy's house at the time you were arrested?
Let's get this straight.
Mr. CoRBiN. I believe I was, to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. ScHERER. Isn't it a fact that you used the political influence
you had out there in Rockf ord to have the w^arrant in New York with-
drawn ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Sir, I never have known to this day that there was a
warrant in regards to me, against me, until just now.
Mr, ScHERER. Well, you knew that there was a warrant issued for
your arrest at the time you were in New York. You said you were
arrested by two policemen on your wife's complaint.
Mr. CoRBiN. You never let me finish that, sir. I tried to explain
to you that they had me picked up in New York because I was leav-
ing the jurisdiction of the court because I had applied to the Federal
Government for an alien's reentry permit because I was going home
to discuss the question of the farm; and when I went to the court, her
attorney stated that I was leaving New York to go back to the farm,
get my share of the inheritance, and stay there, so I stayed there in
jail until the investigation was made into how much money I had in
Canada.
Mr. ScHERER. That was in New York ?
Mr. CoRBiN. That is right.
Mr. ScHERER. On your wife's complaint ?
Mr. CoRBiN. That is correct.
Mr. ScHERER. And the complaint was that you were leaving the
jurisdiction and deserting her, was it not ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No. It was leaving the jurisdiction of the court, and
the argument to the court, to the best of my knowledge and the record
could show that, was the question of inheritance and she wanted her
share of the inheritance that my father left me.
Mr. ScHERER. That was because you were back in your payments in
support of the child ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir. At that time, sir, our relationship was that
I would come every weekend and support the child.
Mr. ScHERER. She instituted that proceeding in New York on which
you were arrested, did she not ?
Mr. CoRBiN. She instituted the proceedings to the fact that I was
leaving for Canada to collect the money.
Mr. ScHERER. And that was a criminal proceeding, was it not?
Mr. CoRBiN. I am not a lawyer, and I wouldn't know, sir.
1400 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Doyle. Just a minute. I am ^yondering why we are going so
far as to the divorce action in support of the child as to this witness.
It seems to me it is irrelevant and immaterial, and if this man has
committed a crime in connection with subversive activities, let's have it.
Mr. ScHERER. Because it relates to what eventually happened in
Rockford.
Mr. Doyle. Let's have it. If this man has committed any subver-
sive activity, if he is a Communist, let's have it. I am getting to where
1 am going to object to this sort of a shotgun attack on a man, going
into divorce proceedings and all that sort of thing. AMiat have they
got to do with whether or not this man is a subversive?
Mr. Scherer. Do you want me to tell you ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes. Tell us what you are getting at.
Mr. Scherer. It is just as simple as this.
Mr. Doyle. Tell us what the record is.
Mr. Scherer. Joseph Kennedy has identified this man and it was
Joseph Kennedy that Corbin said he was living with at the time he was
arrested in Rockford, 111. The fact is that he wasn't living with Ken-
nedy, accordiuij to the testimony, at the time of his arrest.
Mr. Doyle. That doesn't make him a subversive or Communist.
Mr. Scherer. I didn't say that, but it is certainly testing the credi-
bility of a man Corbin has called a liar.
Mr. Doyle. Wliat proof do we have about his credibility ?
Mr. Tavenner. I think as the testimony goes on, Mr. Chairman, a
lot of these things will be made clear as to the facts, and it is pretty
hard to make much comment about it in advance. I believe if I am
permitted to develop these facts here
Mr. Doyle. I want you to develop the facts, Mr. Tavenner, but we
have been an hour, almost 2 hours. I^t's get the facts, whatever they
are.
Mr. Tuck. Part of that is due to the reluctance of the witness to get
down to the real facts. Although he is a voluntary witness here, he
seems to want to go into all of these inconsequential details, instead of
getting down to the fact or answering the questions propounded to him
by counsel and by members of the committee.
Mr. Doyle. I am not pleased with the ramifications either, that this
witness goes 20, 25, and 30 years back. These are understandable
in my book, and I don't object to getting the facts, but let's have them.
I^et's have them. We are here to ascertain the subversive activities or
Communist affiliations of this man, as I understand it.
Mr. Bruce. Will the gentleman yield for a moment?
Mr. Doyle. Yes.
Mr. Bruce. I would suggest that we allow counsel to go ahead and
proceed, even though it may seem remote to some of us, in order that
he may properly develop this case in this particular hearing.
Mr. Doyle. Of course, I didn't have the benefit of any briefing in
this and I didn't have the benefit of being furnished with any copy
of any record or anything else.
Mr. Bruce. We have held substantial hearings prior to this.
Mr. Doyle. I^et's get at the facts. I don't object to getting at the
facts. I want them, whatever the facts are that show whether or not
this man was ever a Communist or ever a subversive, but whether or
not he had trouble with his wife is, in my book, immaterial.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1401
Mr. Bruce. His first wife was a witness before this committee, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. That is all right, but we don't need to try the divorce
case here. That has been tried.
Mr. Bruce. Only as it is relevant.
Mr. Doyle. I want you to go ahead, Mr. Tavenner, and bring out
whatever facts you feel are pertinent and conclusive as to this witness.
Mr. Tavexner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. I don't mean to throw a fence around anybody.
Mr. CoRBix. I didn't mean to be disrespectful in language and I
will tiy to do better and be a little more precise. This is the first
time I have been before a conunittee and I am just trying to give honest
answers. I will try to be more short and more precise. I am awful
sorry.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Joseph C. Kennedy testified at some length
regarding your interest in Communist Party membership during the
period that he and you were associated prior to your entry into the
armed services. At one point he testified as follows:
Question. During the period we have been discussing, up until you went into
the service, was any reference made by Paul Corbin to membership in the Com-
munist Party of the United States ?
Ansv.-er. I personally blocked his membership in Rockford.
Question. Would you repeat that?
Answer. I personally blocked his becoming a member of any Rockford Com-
munist Party group by talking to the key people there, mistrusting the man
quite a bit.
Question. You distrusted himV
Answer. Yes. He is an emotionally unstable person, and I did not want any
involvement with him at that time.
*******
Question. Before we leave this subject, when you say "blocked his member-
ship,'' did he make application for membership in the local group of the Com-
munist Party?
Answer. I believe he did. I do not actually know. I talked to Thorman and
some of these i>eople and said that this man is an emotionally unstable person and
I would advise you not to become deeply involved with him.
Question. Then Goldblatt later hired him?
Answer. Yes.
Question. On your recommendation ?
Answer. Maybe I wanted to get him out of town and out of my hair.
Question. Is that the reason?
Answer. Yes, sir.
The question I want to ask you is, Were you making overtures to be
invited into the Commmiist Party group at Rockford ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you aware of any effort being made to block
your admission into the Communist Party in the Rockford group ?
(At this point Mr. Johansen left the hearing room.)
Mr. Corbin. Sir, I don't see how they can block admission, because
you never asked to join, never would, never have asked, never have
applied, wouldn't dream of it.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me read an additional part of this testimony :
Question. Tell us more in detail about Corbin's desire to get into the Commu-
nist Party or what he did to get into the Communist Party.
Answ-er. About this time, Emil Costello, from the Steelworkers Union appeared
on the scene in Rockford. He was not suspect by the leadership like I was. In
other words, he had some direct pipelines to some people in the higher echelons
1402 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
of the Communist Party, apparently, and I susi>eot that he recruite<l Corbin into
the party. Suddenly Corbin appears on the ILWU payroll and stai-ts wheeling
and dealing, you know, with known party members, and he is getting jobs from
thera. and so forth and so on.
Then he starts talking to me about party policy and all this business. A good
eximple of his following the party line, we had the State CIO convention in
Springfield, 111., and do you remember the America First, which I believe you
could say was an isolationist movement, that of opposing our entry into world
war or at least something roughly like that?
Corbin stood up and made a speech at the CIO convention attacking this Amer-
ica First bitterly ; and it was strictly party policy he was following because,
just a few weeks before, the party was all for the American Firsters and for
keeping out of the so-called imperialist war. and then Hitler attacked the Soviet
T^nion and then, all of a sudden, all of the party people were going in the other
direction.
This convention, he testified, was held in July of 1941.
Xow, Mr. Corbin, let me ask yon, Did yon make a speech in the CIO
convention in July of 1041 in which vou attacked the America First
bitterly?
Mr. Corbin. I can't remember ever making a speech, sir, on the con-
vention floor at that date.
Mr. Taatsxner. Well, was there any other date within a short time
either before or after the time I mentioned ?
(At this point Mr. Johansen entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Corbin. I can't remember that date or any other time. As a
matter of fact, Mr. Tavenner, I was interested because of having come
from Canada and my brother fighting in war — he left in 1039—1 was
interested at that time that America should help Britain at that par-
ticular period and I never took that type of postion. I can't rex'all
ever taking that type of position, to the best of my knowledge, and I
can't remember changing any position. Mr. Kennedy, as far as I am
concerned, as I said, I won't believe him, and as far as I am concerned
every word there is untrue.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, let me read a little further from his
testimony :
Question. Did Corbin make any overtures to you for your asvsistance in getting
him into the Communist Party?
Answer. He did : yes, sir.
Question. Tell us about that.
Answer. He kept hanging around and hinting and saying, well, you know,
indicating that he was already communicating with the higher level people,
and the implication was that, you know, I should take him to the meetings, and
so forth and so on. I just simply ignored his advances and had nothing to do
with him on this question.
Mr. Corbin. Thaf statement is untrue.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you desire to make any comment regarding this
testimony of Mr. Kennedy's ?
Mr. Corbin. Mr. Kennedy is a liar.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, now, yon don't know whether he is before
you heard the question.
Mr. Corbin. I thouglit yon were referring to the previous state-
ment. Excuse me.
Mr. Tavenner. Xo. I am giving you another :
Question. You stated that you remonstrated to various leaders of the Com-
munist Party in your area against Corbin being permitted to come into the
Rockford group of the Communist Party?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1403
Answer. Yes.
Question. And you mentioned Oostello as one of tiiose?
Answer. Yes.
Question. Who were the others?
Answer. Costello, nominally, was the organizer for the United Steelworkers
Union, but actually, of course, he was apparently a high official in the party or
had very strong connections, and I remonstrated with him about pushing this
Corbin into too close a relationship with us. In fact, Corbin started to inter-
fere with trade union policy and related things where the two were blending
together somewhat. That is the reason I had encouraged Costello to get him
the job with Bridges and get him out of town.
AVell, Costello did get you the job, didn't he, with ILWU? I be-
lieve you said so earlier.
Mr. CoRBix. Mr. Costello and Mr. Kennedy both got me the job and
I would like to state this: That the only section of that statement of
Mr. Kennedy which is true is that I was getting into his hair, because
when I was in the Rockford CIO Council, I was voting against some
of his resolutions and, by that time, having worked for a short period
for the Furniture Workers union organizing this Illinois Cabinet
plant, I had become acquainted with some of the furniture workers
because they would assist me to pass out these leaflets in front of the
plant, and I would say to them that Joe is "all wet" on this resolu-
tion, and Joe would come to me after the meetings and say, "Hell, I
gave you your start in the labor movement, and you are voting with
these other guys like the auto workers and the steelworkers,'' and I
sure was getting into Joe's hair when I was elected to the Eockford
CIO Council ; all the votes that Joe commanded he tried to stop me
from being elected ; and if what he says is true, if he was a Communist
at the time, I am very glad that I did get in his hair. I must have
been doing some good then, not even knowing it.
Mr, Tavenner. Mr. Corbin, the Communist Control Act of 1954,
Title 60, Section 844, contains this language :
In determining membership or participation in the Communist Party or any
other organization defined in this Act, or knowledge of the purpose or objective
of such party or organization, the jury, under instructions from the court, shall
consider evidence, if presented, as to whether the accused person :
There are 13 or 14 different things mentioned, but at this point I
mention only two of them :
(.3) Has made himself subject to the discipline of the organization in any
form whatsoever ;
( 4 ) Has executed orders, plans, or directives of any kind of the organization ;
Now, the committee has received testimony relating to alleged execu-
tion by you of Commimist Party orders and your subjection to the
discipline of the Communist Party. Again, in the course of the testi-
mony of Mr. Joseph C. Kennedy, we find that he refers to a person
by the name of Perry E. Wilgus. I think you already testified that
you were the organizer of the W. T. Rawleigh plant over in Freeport.
That is correct, isn't it ?
Mr. Corbin, Correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you working under the directions of Lou
Goldblatt, vice president of the ILWU, in the performance of that
work?
Mr, Corbin. Xo, sir.
87845—62 12
1404 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr, Ta\-exxer. "Who was it?
Mr. CoRBiN. Bob Robertson.
Mr. Ta%^nner. Robertson ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes, sir.
Mr. TA^'ENXER. That is J. R. Robertson, is it '?
Mr. CoRBix. I wouldn't know. I used to call him Bob, Bob Robert-
son. He was the director of organization, I believe.
Mr. Ta^T'^xxer. Were you acquainted with a person by tlie name of
Perry Wilgus ?
Mr. CoRBix. Yes, I was, met him on one or two occasions.
Mr. Ta\'exxer. The following is the testimony of Mr. Kennedy re-
lating to Mr. Wilgus, and it involves you :
Question. Were you acquainted with a person by the name of Perry E. Wilgus?
Answer. Yes.
This is Mr. Kennedy testifying.
Question. Do you l^now where Perry Wilgus is now?
Answer. No, I don't.
Question. Where did he reside the last time you knew of him ?
Answer. Freeport, 111.
Question. What was the association between Wilgus and Coi'bin, if you know?
Answer. Wilgus represented himself as a member of the Comnumist Party
and came to Rockford to see me several times about doing something about
Corbin.
You see, the war was now on and the Communist Party line was to win the war
and not have strikes, and so forth, for the interests of the Soviet Union, and so
forth. Corbin was being rather reckless in his activities in Freeport, causing
a lot of trouble and the possibility of sitdowns, etc., not following their political
line as precisely as Mr. Wilgus wanted it followed. So Wilgus came and talked
to me about it. He had no control over Corbin whatsoever. Wilgus at this
time was an official of the Micro Switch Division, a subsidiary of Minneapolis-
Honeywell.
Question. An official of the company?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Question. And a member of the Communist Party ?
Answer. He represented himself to me as a member of the Conununist Party.
Question. He was in charge of manpower for the Micro Switch Division, was
he not ?
Answer. Yes, sir.
Question. Can you fix the approximate time when this occurred?
Answer. Yes, sir ; it occurred in early 1943.
Now, were you aware that Mr, Wilgus complained to Mr. Kennedy
that you were not following the political line of the Communist Party
as precisely as Mr. Wilgus desired ?
Mr. CoRBix. Mr. Tavenner, I was not even aware that Mr. Wilgus
knew Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Tavenxer. Then do you deny that you were aware that Mr.
Wilgus went to Mr. Kennedy with regard to you ?
Mr. CoRBix. I deny that I was aware that Mr. Wilgus went to Mr.
Kennedy.
Mr. Tavexxer. Did you have a conference with Mr. Wilgus and
Mr. Corbix. At that time — what was that ? Excuse me.
Mr, Tavexxer. Excuse me. Go ahead.
Mr. CoRBix. No. Go ahead.
Mv. Tavexxer. Go ahead and state what your answer is.
Mr. CoRBix. I am waiting for you.
Mr. Tavexxer. What is it ?
Mr. CoRBix, I am waiting for you to proceed, sir.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1405
Mr. Ta^-enner. You started to make an explanation of a conference
with Mr. Wilgus.
Mr. CoRBiN. No, I did not. You said a conference after I started
talking.
Mr. Ta\'enner. Suppose you tell us about the conference you had
with Mr. Wilgus.
Mr. CoRBiN. I had no conference.
Mr. Ta\^nner. What is that ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Let me explain to you how I met Mr. Wilgus.
Mr. Ta\^enner. All right.
Mr. CoRBiN. I was organizing in Freeport, 111., and occasionally
people in the community who were interested in seeing tlie unions or-
ganized would write in letters offering suggestions and my union
office in Chicago would call me and say, "There is a fellow by the name
of So-and-So," first call came, sporting goods shop. "He is for the
union. He has some suggestions for you. He will give you some
names of people who are interested in unionism."
We got these calls continuously, letters of people who came in.
At one time, I got a call stating that there was a man by the name of
Mr. Wilgus, who was an official of the Micro Switch Co., and he was
interested in unionism and, "He would like to talk to you." I met
Mr. Wilgus. I can't remember where. It was quite some time ago.
Mr. Tavenxer. Was it in Freeport ?
Mr. Corbix. Yes, it was in Freeport, and he claimed that I was
organizing wrong, that I would never win the election, and I asked
him why. I asked how he knew so much about it. He said, "Well, I
attended a Chamber of Commerce meeting and I heard some of these
fellows were making remarks the w^ay we were doing it and I had some
experience in union in my younger days. You are not doing it right."
I can't recall specifically what his complaint was; but I just ignored
it, from some guy who sat by the sidelines, who was telling me I was
doing it wrong and he had the answer.
I got numerous, I would say, in at least every campaign of that. I
probably would have 20 or 30 calls from people who were interested
in unions. Even ministers and priests would write in, and I would
go to see them. In fact, specifically, there was a Father Byrne who
also wrote in and suggested
Mr. Tavenner. Of course, we are not interested in what the min-
istry may have said about it, but what the Communists said.
Mr. Corbin. I don't know of the Communists. I didn't know wdio
was a Communist. I couldn't tell a Communist from a Republican in
those days.
Mr. Scherer. Did you say Wilgus was an officer of a company ?
Mr. Tavenner. He was an officer of Micro Switch, entirely different
people from the Rawleigh Co., that he was organizing.
Mr. Scherer. And this witness tells us that he was trying to tell
him why he wasn't being successful in organizing employees of an-
other company ?
Mr. Tavenner. That is what the witness said.
Mr. CoRBiN. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have a conference with Mr. Wilgus and
Mr. Kennedy in Rockf ord. 111. ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir.
1406 TESTIMONY' BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Tavenner. Relatiiiir to your activity at the W. T. Rawleigh
Co.,of Freeport ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have a conference with Mr. Wilofus alone
or with any other person in Rockford regarding the activities in your
union ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Mr. Tavenner, I can't recall to the best of my knowl-
edge— I paid no significance, Mr. Tavenner, no more than I did to
the other people who were telling me how to do it there: but, to the
best of my knowledge, and I am trying to recollect, I saw Mr. Wilgus
once or twice, which was the most times, most I have ever seen liim ;
and then I remember when he would call I would ignore his call, just
as I would others who would call, and to the best of my knowledge, I
can't remember. It wasn't significant to me at the time. I just
can't remember.
Mr. JoHANSEN. But you are testifying that there were repeated ef-
forts on his part, to contact you after the one meeting you recall ?
Mr. CoRBiN. He called me about — I am just trying to vaguely —
there would be messages, I would say, maybe once or twice, I would
say.
Mr. JoHANSEN. But this was after the one meeting which you recol-
lect that the calls came ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes, messages.
Mr. JoHANSEN. Messages ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JoHANSEN. Indicating that he had called ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes.
Mr. JoHANSEN. This was after your initial meeting, your one meet-
ing, with him ?
Mr. CoRBiN. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, Mr. Corbin, Mr. Perry E. Wilgus appeared
as a witness before this committee and testified that he had been a
member of the Communist Party from 1935 to 1944, during the
latter part of which time he was employed as a staff assistant to the
secretary-treasurer and assistant to the vice president of the Micro
Switch plant in Freeport. Prior to Mr. Wilgus' moving to Freeport,
he was a member of the morale division of the North Side Section of
Civilian Defense in Chicago.
Upon being asked whether he had engaged in a conference with Mr.
Joseph C. Kennedy, business manager of the United Furniture Work-
ers of America, relating to you, Mr. Wilgus testified :
Question. But now you do recall an occasion that you remember in which you
conferred with an official of that union that was mentioned?
The union referred to there was Mr. Kennedy's union, United Fur-
niture Workers of America.
Answer. That is right.
Question. And did that take place in Rockford?
Answer. I am sure it did.
Question. Now, what was the occasion of your going there and having that
conference?
Answer. As Mr. Kennedy says, it was probably on this Corbin thing. I can
think of nothing else that it would be, although how I got into it, I really can't
remember.
Question. Yes. What was it about Corbin that caused you to consult others?
Answer. If I recall, as you say, he was a wild man. He was a wild man.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1407
I want to make an explanation. That isn't what I said. That is
what Wilgns said.
Question. Well, now, tell us more about that. What do you mean, "a wild
man" ? That will help you to remember the whole situation ?
Answer. Yes. As I recall, he was tied in with the Longshoremen's Union.
Frankly, I thought it was after 1942. I thought it was in 1943. After all, these
years sort of run together after a time.
Question. I should tell you that Mr. Kennedy said at the time that your trip
over there was in 1943.
Answer. As I recall, conversation throughout the town, when the Long-
shoremen were trying to organize the W. T. Rawleigh Co. —
Then Mr. Wilgus continues :
What particular interest would W. T. Rawleigh be to the Longshoremen? And
it just didn't seem to add up, even to me, for goodness sakes, that the Long-
shoremen had nothing to do but to try to organize a proprietary drug company,
which was certainly not of any great importance to them that I could see, but,
evidently, this happened in the fall of 1942.
And Mr. Wilgns further states :
The W. T. Rawleigh Co. manufactured a complete line of proprietary drugs,
farm insecticides, and that kind of thing. At one time they had plants scattered
in various parts of the world. I believe they had one in Melbourne, Australia,
at one time, and so on. I happened to know this, because their executive vice
president lived directly across the hall from me in Freeport, and he, of course,
had been with it since his early youth and he, of course, knew it inside and
■out.
It was sold largely on routes, such as the Stanley deal is today, I believe.
Furce-McNess, which is also in Freeport, have a similar site where they sell to
farmers in the rural communities, where they sell to farmers primarily.
Question. Why did you call Corbin a wild man?
Answer. It just seemed to me that from the antics that I recall vaguely of his
going through, he was not the mosft calm individual. In fact, I think I met him
in Freeport once or twice, and probably in Rockford.
*******
Question. I don't quite understand what it was about Corbin that seemed to be
wrong over there in Freeport that caused you to be concerned about it.
Answer. Frankly, I wasn't concerned about it. I was not concerned about this.
It was not of my doing. I had nothing to do with it. He certainly was not
working for me. I had nothing to do with his union.
Question. Yes. But if at that time you were a member of the Communist
Party and Corbin was not following the Communist Party line and what the
Communist Party was supposed to be doing in the war effort at that time, you
would take note of that, would you not?
Answer. Not particularly. Frankly, I was pretty busy myself trying to do
my own job. That was the main thing I was there for, to do a job for Micro
Switch Corp.
*******
Question. As you have told us, you do recall going over there to Rockford and
talking to the person who was the international representative and business
manager of United Furniture Workers and that you can't imagine what you
talked about unless it was Corbin. That is what you said ?
Answer. That is exactly what I said.
Question. All right. Now, why did you go over there and talk to Kennedy?
Answer. I think I was asked to do it. I think I was asked to do it because I
was in the locality.
Question. Because you were what?
Answer. Because I was in the locality. After all, Rockford is only 25 or 26
miles from Freeport.
Question. Yes. You were asked to do that by a member of the Communist
Party?
Answer. Yes, I presimae so.
Question. You presume so?
1408 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Answer. I presume so. Otherwise I would not have gotten into it.
Question. Just what were you asked to do by the person that you presumed
was a member of the Communist Party?
Answer. I presume it would be to settle down and counsel with the guy and
try and calm him down.
Question. And why go to the business manager or, rather, the international
representative and business manager of the United Furniture Workers over in
Rockford about it?
Answer. Because I believe that there was a prior meeting with him at the hotel.
Question. A prior meeting?
Answer. A prior meeting at which I became acquainted with Kennedy, or
Curran.
Curran, it developed, was Kennedy's Communist Party name.
Question. A prior meeting at which you were present?
Answer. That is right.
Question. Well, was that a Communist Party meeting?
Answer. A Communist Party meeting, yes.
Question. And so you went there to get a leader in the Communist Party to
discipline or control Corbin ; isn't that what that means?
Answer. In essence, that was exactly that, to try to control him.
Question. Why go to a Communist to get a Communist to control Corbin ?
Answer. If I recall, the word had come down that Corbin had been a Com-
munist or was tied in very closely with them. I do not recall having attended
a meeting, a Communist meeting, with Corbin.
Question. You said a while ago that you probably met Corbin on one occasion
over at Rockford.
Answer. That is right.
Question. Was that a Communist Party meeting over there?
Answer. That I cannot say. I cannot recall that. It was either with
Kennedy, if that is what Kennedy says, or it was a separate meeting. I do not
know. I do not recall having seen the man more than once in Rockford.
* ^ 'i' * * * *
Question. Now, I am asking you to try to recall the circumstances under
which you saw Corbin over in Rockford. What could have been your business
over there, which would have caused you to see Corbin in Rockford? AVas it
Communist Party business?
Answer. I would presume so. I would have no other reason to see the man.
Question. Were other people present at the time you saw him?
Answer. I do not remember whether Corbin and Kennedy were the sole people
there, whether there were other people involved, other than Kennedy at another
meeting. As I say, I remember attending two or possibly three meetings in
Rockford at the Nelson Hotel. Now, who was present at those meetings, frankly,
I cannot remember.
:tc 4: 4: 4: 4: 1): *
<iuestioii. Now, you said that word came down that Corbin was, or had
been, a member of the Communist Party. Came down from where?
Answer. I met Mike Kingsley in Chicago.
Question. Kingsley. Isn't he one of those on that list?
Answer. Yes.
The list referred to was a list of Connnunist Party members at
Rockford, 111., that the committee had obtained through its investiga-
tion.
Answer (continued). And I think Mike had been in and out of Rockford a lot.
In fact, I believe he was sent there back in the late thirties as the organizer
and I ran into Mike in Chicago, as I was in Chicago frequently during tho«e
days, and he asked me to check into this and told me about Corbin, or Corbett.
I should advise you that, in the early stages of the interrogation,
Mr. Wilgus could not remember definitely the name of "Corbin," but
we produced a photograph of Mr. Corbin for the witness, and he im-
mediately identlHed him as the person that lie was talking al)()ut.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1409
Question. Anyway, the same man whose photograph was shown?
Answer. That is right. That was the man. The photograph I remember.
The face I know.
Question. Was this man Kingsley the Communist Party organizer for Chicago
at that time?
Answer. He was in Chicago, I believe, at that time. He had been in Rockford.
Question. Do you linow whether he was a Communist Pai'ty organizer or not?
Answer. Oli, yes.
Question. In otlier words, a functionary ?
Answer. Oh, yes.
Question. A rather high functionary of the Communist Party in that area?
Answer. He was a section organizer.
Question. What is that?
Answer. A section organizer.
Question. Tell us again what he told you about Corbin.
Answer. In the best of my recollection, Corbett or Corbin was acting up, "See
what you can do about it." And if I recall, he was living in Rockford, and I
reached this one person — evidently it was Curran or Kennedy — to arrange a
meeting. Now, whether that was the meeting at which I saw Corbin, I, gentle-
men, am sorry, my memory is not that good.
Question. Now, when Kingsley said to do something about it. what did that
convey to you ?
Answer. He asked me. He did not tell me to do it. He asked me to do it.
Question. All right. What did he ask you to do?
Answer. To see if we couldn't straighten the man out.
Question. Straighten him out about what?
Answer. To alleviate the situation that apparently was beginning to develop,
which he knew a lot more than I did about, about the situation, even in Free-
port, among the unions. After all, I did not associate with these people. I
worke<l (j days a week and nearly every evening. We worked on a 6-day week
then. That is all there was to it.
Question. You see, it is hard to understand how the Communist Party or-
ganizer in an area would request another Communist Party member to straighten
out a person, unless that person were under the discipline of the Communist
Party.
Answer. That is quite evident. That is why I presumed he was.
Mr. Doyle. Shall we recess for luncheon at that point, Mr. Taven-
ner, or are you ready ?
Mr. Tayenner. Mr. Chairman, I think there is a little more that I
should read of the Wilgus testimony, if you will permit me.
Mr. Doyle. Yes ; go ahead.
Mr. Tavenner (continuing) .
Question. Well, when the time came to straighten him out and you had the
meeting and Corbin attended, what happened to indicate that Corbin was either
accepting or rejecting that discipline of the Communist Party?
Answer. Frankly, I don't recall any problems after that. In fact, I don't
even know whether the man was still around after that.
Question. Wait a minute. How is that?
Answer. I say I don't recall having heard of any problems arising after
that.
Question. After that?
Answer. Nor do I even recall whether the man was around after that.
Question. Well, can you recall now, since thinking about these matters as
deeply as you are now thinking about them, what reaction Corbin gave to this
effort to straighten him out? Take all the time you need. Possibly to help a lit-
tle more on that, did you and Kingsley discuss what course you should take to
try to straighten this man out?
Answer. I think it was simply a question of explanation, selling the man,
pointing out what was happening. If there were problems in that union, which
undoubtedly there were, I don't believe the man understood a small community,
a hidebound community, such as Freeport, and was certainly not in my opinion
doing himself or his group any good at all, his union, with the threats of sitdown
strikes and all that sort of thing.
1410 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Question. Now. did Kingsley suggest tliat you go and get the lielp of Joe
Kennedy in tJiis?
Answer. Frankly, I don't know.
Question. How did you happen to go to Joe Kennedy?
An.swer. Because I believe I had met him, as I said, at a prior meeting. I
think the major emphasis was to get the United States into the war, up until
that time.
That is all.
Mr. Doyle. T^Tiat is your wish. Counsel? Do you wish the commit-
tee to adjourn at this point so that after luncheon you can begin to
question the witness ao;ain ?
Mr. TA^^:NNER. I would like to have his reaction now, if he is pre-
pared to give it.
Mr, Doyle. Go ahead.
Mr. TA^'ENNER. I think while it is fresh in his mind.
Mr. Hooker. What is the question, please, sir?
Mr. Ta\-enner. My first question is, were you acquainted with Mike
Kingsley, section organizer of the Communist Party ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Never heard of the name until today.
Mr. Hooker. Mr. Chairman, I would like to point out for the
record
Mr. Tuck. According to the rules of the committee, counsel is to
advise only.
Mr. Doyle. That is right. As I stated an hour or two ago, we
simply cannot pennit counsel to argue or make statements to the
committee. Your function under our rules is to advise your client.
Mr. Hooker. I have no right, or my client has no right and through
him I have a right to comment upon the pertinency of testimony?
Mr. Doyle. Your client can raise the question of pertinency if he
wants to. if that is your advice to him, but you can't proceed as a
matter of argument, no.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. CoRBiN. Mr. Tavenner, I never heard of Mike Kingsley until
today. No. 2, this guy Perry Wilgus is the world's greatest liar, be-
cause the only time he talked to me he was telling me how to win the
election. He said he didn't like the way I was oj'ganizing it. Then he
is testifying and he is referring to something after the plant was or-
ganized, contract signed, and I had disputes. I never laiew that
Perry Wilgus was around. He was just some crackpot that called
up from the union that wanted to give suggestions.
This other knowledge about him being a Communist and meeting
with Joe and having meetings is all complete news to me.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you meet in Rockford with Wilgus on any
occasion ?
Mr. CoRBiN. My answer would be, I would say pretty certain now.
Mr. TA^^2NNER. Pretty certain ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes. You see, I met him once or twice at the most
and I am pretty positive it was at Freeport. I don't believe I ever
met the man in Rockford. I am convinced of that.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you meet with Kennedy relating to any of the
problems in the W. T. Rawleigh Co. ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Mr. Tavenner, every labor leader in Rockford were
interested in the W. T. Rawleigh Co. l>ecause the Auto Workers had
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1411
tried to organize it twice before and had lost and they were all watch-
ing what Corbin was going to do, because the first time they lost it
they lost outright and the second time they lost the election against
the Bookbinders. The union boys were saying it would be impossible
to organize that plant because they had an existing contract and the
working conditions improved as a result of this existing contract with
the Bookbinders.
So, occasionally, a labor organizer would come through, especially
the Auto Workers, who had participated in the previous elections,
and oifer me suggestions, and I used to kid them and say, ''Well, your
system didn't work. I'll try mine."
Mr. Tavenner. All right. Now, did you have any conference with
Mr. Kennedy on problems relating to the W. T. Rawleigh Co. union ?
Mr, CoRBiN. The only conversations I might have had, ]SIr. Taven-
ner, is he would call me and say, "How are things going?"' And I'd
say, "Pretty good."' That's about the extent of it, but I woukl never
rely upon Mr. Kennedy's judgment when it came to organizing after
my experience with him previously. He would be the last person I
would ask or take advice.
Mr. Tavennek. Did you meet with Mr. Kennedy in Rockford?
Mr. CoRBiN. Mr. Tavenner, I would like to explain that. It is very
difficult to answer because when I would go to Chicago occasionally,
Rockford was right on the route and, no doubt, I woidd drop in the
CIO hall to say hello, no specific reason for a conference or any
planned meetings, but it would be a normal thing for me to stop over
at the CIO hall to say hello.
Mr, Tavenner. Did you have anv meeting with him in the Nelson
Hotel?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you reside in the Nelson Hotel ?
Mr. Corbin. At the time that I was organizing the Freeport com-
pany, Mr, Tavenner, I was residing — the record will show — at the
Freeport Hotel, I moved, got my first 30 days' expenses paid, and
from then on in I stayed at the Freeport Hotel,
Mr. Tavenner. Prior to that you had lived at the Nelson Hotel ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I lived at various hotels, Nelson, Grand, and wherever
I could get a cheap rate,
(Counsel conferred with witness,)
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever meet with ]\Ir. Wilgus and Mr. Ken-
nedy in Rockford ?
Mr, CoRBiN. I would say no, sir ; I can"t recall.
Mr, Tavenner. Just a moment. You say no, and then you say you
can't recall. Are you in doubt about it ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I met Mr. Wilgus once or twice at the most. The first
time I remember meeting him in Freeport. I would be willing to say
no, I did not meet him in Rockford. There would be no point in me
meeting him in Rockford. There would be no point unless it was
casually, by accident, but I would never waste my time to go to Rock-
ford to me€t Mr. Wilgus because somelx)dy was calling me up to give a
curbstone story, I would never go to Rockford to have a meeting
with Mr, Wilgus, unless maybe by accident he was there at the
union hall when I was there.
1412 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. ScHERER. You wouldn't meet him by accident at the Nelson
Hotel?
Mr. CoRBiisr. No.
Mr. ScHERER. Yon said you had no meeting
Mr. CoRBiN. With Wilgns at the Nelson, that is correct.
Mr. ScHERER. Not with Wilgus and Kennedy ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Wilgus and Kennedy at the Nelson Hot«l, that is
correct.
Mr. Tavexner. Just one more question, Mr. Chainnan. Did you
knowiiigly accept Communist Party discipline in regard to any of the
activities of your union in the organizational work of the W. T.
Rawleigh Co. ?
]\f r. CoRRix. I did not because I never knew who a Communist, was
and never met one. I didn't know that Wilgus was or the rest of the
Mr. Tavenxer. Well, you knew Kennedy was at that time.
Mr. CoRRiN. That is correct, but he was the last person in the world
that I would take orders from or suggestions.
Mr. Tuck. But you did stop off on your way to Chicago to say hello ?
Mr. CoRBTx. Not to say hello to Kennedy. As a nde, I would go to
consult with the Auto Workers, who had previously conducted cam-
paigns in Freeport, and I would occasionally check with Charley Fane
or Herschel Wolfe, two of the organizers for the Auto Workere, as to
the credibility of some of the people in the plant, as to how tiiith-
ful they were, and the conditions, and that would be my only point,
or, in the second place, I might go in there — they had a bowling
alley — maybe play a game of bowling or something, game of 10, 15
minutes, on the way, but it certainly wasn't to take any advice of
Joe on organizing.
jMr. TxcK. I understood you to say earlier that occasionally on your
trips to Chicago you would stop off at Rockford for the express pur-
pose of saying hello to this Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. CoRBix. No. If I said that, sir, I didn't mean it in that sense.
Mr. Ti'CK. You knew him at that time to be a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. CoRBiN. Sir, I was told by Mr. Eead, but I personally thought
that Joe Kennedy was a nut. If that's the best the Communists had,
this guy was^ ■
JNIr. Tuck. Then, how could you explain to this committee that
you would stop oif at Rockford to say hello to this man whom you
believed to be a nut and whom you say you didn't trust and whom you
sav was involved with communism ?
Mr. CoRBix. I would stop in to say hellos to the boys in the union
hall, Charley Fane, Herschel Wolfe. I knew all the people there in
Rockford. It wasn't specifically to see Mr. Kennedy. It was just
to drop in because I had been there for several years. I knew every-
body and it was for no other pur]>ose than to say hello to perhaps
Charlev Fane or Herschel Wolfe. If Joe was there, I would say hello,
but it was never to see Joe Kennedy.
INIr. ScHEREK. You had this feeling about Joe Kennedy, which you
have just desci-ibed, having been told that he was a member of the
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1413
Communist Party, having now said that you wouldn't take any sugges-
tions from him, and you indicated a few minutes ago that he was a
liar; but yet, subsequent to this, you went into business with him.
Mr. CoRBiN. I will explain this. If you want me to start explain-
ing, I will do that right now. I would just like to say this.
When I talked to Mr. Wilgus on the one or two occasions and he
didn't like the way I was organizing, I paid no more attention to what
Mr. Wilgus said to me than the other 15, 20, or 25 people who had
suggestions. In the first place — I am trying to recollect — I just never
could understand why he called. He was working with Micro Switch
and he was telling me he was going to Chamber of Commerce meet-
ings. I couldn't figure the guy out in the first place, but you have
a lot of those things.
Every time you go to organize a plant a guy calls and says, "My
father was a carpenter and I am for labor" or "I am a friend of labor,"
and you have that all the time.
Mr. JoHANSEN. Perliaps I misunderstood. I thought you said that
you might have seen Wilgus by mere chance at the union hall. Did
I understand that correctly ?
Mr. CoRBiN. What I was saying, sir, is that they both insist — and
I haven't seen the testimony — they saw me in Rockford with Wilgus.
I can't recall ever meeting Mr. Wilgus in Rockford. I wouldn't drive
four blocks to see Mr. Wilgus, across the street, but if Mr. Wilgus
frequented Rockford, there is a possibility, as I walked into the union
hall, he might have been there. Tliat is the only extent. As far as
a meeting at the hotel or consulting with him and Mr. Kennedy about
the union activities in Freeport, absolutely no.
Mr. JoHANSEN. What puzzled me was your feeling that it was pos-
sible that Mr. Wilgus, who I understand was a management man with
another firm, would have been at the union hall.
Mr. CoRBiN. Well, after hearing the testimony, sir, that he was a
Red, there is just a possibility — then the meeting with Mr. Kennedy —
there was a remote possibility of him being there, and I didn't want
to ])erjure myself by saying no; but as far as meeting with him in
Rockford with Kennedy to discuss the Freeport plant, the answer
absolutely is "No."
Mr. Doyle. May I inquire what union were you working for, what
union was paying you, when you were doing this organizing of this
plant?
Mr. CoRBix. Freeport ?
Mr. DoTLE. Yes.
Mr. CoRBiN. It was the Longshoremen's union, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Were you working for Lou Goldblatt ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, I was working for a fellow called Bob Robertson.
Of course, Lou Goldblatt was an officer of the union.
Mr. ScHERER. You did know Lou Goldblatt ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I would say I probably saw him maybe two, three
times, because he operated out of San Francisco and he occasionally
would come into Chicago, but my base was Freeport, so on the rare
occasions that I would come into Chicago I might have seen him once
or twice.
1414 TESTIMOXY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. ScHERER. Did j'ou know that Louis Goldblatt is one of the top
Communists in the country ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I have read articles since then that he is alleged to
be a Communist. I wouldn't know if he is or not. He sure looks
like one, though.
Mr. Tavenner. Did 3'ou know that J. R. Robertson was a code-
fendant with Bridges in his perjury conspiracy trial?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, I did not. Bob Robertson— when did that happen?
Mr. Tavenner. At a much later date, of course. It was in the lOSO's.
Mr- CoRBiN. Robertson, as I recall, was a tall Texan from Texas
and he was an affable fellow, and I would say that he, more than any
person, directed my organization in Freeport. They didn't like the
leaflets that I was printing on the plant, and Robertson called me up
one time and said, "Paul, we don't like this stuff that you are putting
out in front of the plant. From now on, we will write the leaflet in
our head office in Chicago and ship them to you."
Mr. ScHERER. You didn't know that Robertson was a member of the
Communist Party either?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. You heard since, though, haven't you ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir. That I do not know.
Mr. Bruce. A moment ago you stated that you weren't sure whether
Goldblatt was a member of the Communist Party, but "he sure looks
like one." What do you mean ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I read some articles — I think it was a few years ago —
about Lou Goldblatt. I can't remember what paper it was. He was
involved in some matter which I, as an American, would not.
Mr. Bruce. You mean from what you know about him you would
say
Mr. CoRBiN. From what I read in that article in the paper. I don't
know the man. In fact, I saw him several times. He was a cold-
fish type.
Mr. Bruce. You saw him several times ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Two or three times, I would say.
Mr. Bruce. But you didn't know him ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No. He was a cold fish, and I doubt if he said hello
more than once to me.
Mr. Bruce. Just a moment ago you said you didn't know him.
Mr. CoRBiN. That's right, I didn't Iniow him, but seeing him, yes.
If you call that knowing. I don't know what you call knowing him.
Mr. Bruce. Had you had any conversation with him at any time?
Mr. CoRBiN. I might have, a couple of words exchanged.
Mr. Bruce. If he came in the room, you could identify him ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes, sir.
Mr. DoYi.E. \^niat is it the committee wishes? Shall we adjourn
until 2 :00 o'clock ? It is 1 :00 o'clock now.
Mr. ScHERER. Two o'clock.
Mr. Doyle. The committee will stand in recess until 2 :00 o'clock
and the witness will return at 2 :00 p.m. with counsel. The committee
will stand in recess until 2 :00 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12:55 p.m. Monday, July 2. 1962, the hearing was
recessed, to be reconvened at 2 :00 p.m., of the same day.)
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1415
AFTERNOON SESSION— MONDAY, JULY 2, 1%2
TESTIMONY OF PAUL CORBIN— Resumed
The committee reconvened at 2:10 p.m., Hon. Francis E. Walter
( chairman) presiding.
Members present at time of reconvening: Representatives "Waher,
Doyle, Scherer, Johansen, Bruce, and Schadeberg.
The Chairman. Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Ta\'t:nner. Mr. Corbin, I read to you again from the testimony
of Joseph C. Kennedy on the general subject of the alleged execution
of Communist Party orders by you :
Question. Did he [meaning you] show any interest in the Communist Party
during the period he lived with you and while you knew him, up until you went
into the service?
Answer. Yes ; he seemed greatly interested.
Question. What do you mean by that ?
Answer. Well, he read the Daily Worker and was always a.ssociating with
people who are thought to be. or known to be, members of the Communist
Party in the area.
Question. Will you give us the names of those people?
Answer. Yes. Emil Costello, then of the United Steelworkers Union, and Carl
Thorman of the Unitetl Furniture Workers Union, and Einar Sell of the Furni-
ture Workers Union, and Lou Goldblatt of the ILWU.
Question. That is the same person you referred to a while ago as being the
person who employed him in Chicago?
Answer. Yes, and Robertson of the ILAVU.
* ^ * * * * *
Question. Could the Robertson you referred to be .J. R. Robertson?
Answer. Yes, that is who it is.
Did you know Mr. Costello as a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Mr. Chairman, I did not know who Mr. Costello was,
outside of the fact that he was a re})resentative from the Steelworkers
union. I did not know he was a Communist. At tliat time I was just
an organizer that got $40 a week to organize plants that they gave me,
and this morning you asked me about dates, and it is very difficult to
go back '25 yeai-s to give you exact dates. You mentioned people that
I was supposed to have associated with. I do not know if they were
Communists. There are a lot of people in the unions.
Mr. Taa^nner. Let me make the question specific. Did you at any
time prior to 1953 know that Mr. Costello was a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Corbin, did you at any time advise any investi-
gative agency of the Government ; that is, Immigration Service or the
Federal Bureau of Investigation or any other investigative agency of
the Government, that Emil Costello was a member of the Communist
Party ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes, I thought — after I left the labor movement and
went into veterans' activities, I began to think back and tliought a lot
of those boys certainly looked like Communists and I told, 1 believe
it was, the Immigration or somebody with the Federal Government
I thought he was; but I have no definite proof that he was a Com-
munist. I liad no actual knowledge to say that he was. He sounded
like one. AMien you look back in retrospect. At that time in the
1416 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
labor movement I did not know one from another. A lot of ns oro;a-
nizers who worked in the labor movement, we did not know who the
Communist was and who was not. Afterwards, when the exposure
was made in the newspapers and there was more alertness to the
menace of communism, especially about the labor movement in Mil-
waukee, having been there I was more interested in following the
exposures than perhaps the average citizen was because I was there
at the time, and even I then came to the conclusion that, no doubt,
there was a great possibility that Emil was a member of the Commu-
nist Party. So far as to prove it, I cannot.
Mr. Tavenner. Xow, he obtained for vou your position in the
ILWU,didhenot?
Mr. CoRBiN. Him and Joe Kenned}^ and Charley Fane and the
others thought it was a good idea that they would hire me to organize
this plant.
Mr. Tavexxer. And Costello himself had no position of anv kind
within the ILWT'?
Mr. CoRBix. No, he represented the Steelworkers union, but it was
common practice at that time — just to clarify it — when an organizer
was out of a job to call another international union and say there was
a man available. That was common practice. They shifted around.
Mr. Tavexxer. Did Emil Costello at any time give orders to
you-
Mr. CoRBix. No.
Mr. Ta^^xxer. Wait a minute. Relating to activities of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. CoRBix. No. He never gave me any orders of any kind.
Mr. Tavexxer. Did he counsel you or advise you in an}' matters
relating to Communist Party activities?
Mr. Corbix. Mr. Tavenner, the answer is "No." I was not a Com-
munist. I was opposed to communism. If I would have realized
at the time that they were the enemy of our country as they were, 1
would not have hung around the labor movement for 24 hours. 1
would like to state this right now, Mr. Tavenner: The proudest day
of my life is when I raised my hand in San Diego and became a citizen
of this country when I had the Marine Corps uniform on. If some
of us in the labor movement had known there was a danger with ene-
mies of our country, I would not have hung around for $40 a week
or $40 million a week. So all these questions you are asking me about
enemies of our country, and answer is "No."
Mr. Tavexxer. Were you acquainted with Carl Thorman of the
Furniture Workers union ?
Mr. CoRBix. Yes, I was. He was a member of the union and worked
in the plant like thousands of others.
Mr. Tavexxer. He was a member of the Communist Party, wasn't
he?
Mr. CoRBix. I did not know that. I was unable to know.
(Mr. Tuck entered the hearing room at this point.)
Mr. Tavenner. Actually he was chairman of the Rockford section
of the Communist Party.
Mr. CoRBix. I am not aware of that, sir.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1417
Mr. Tavenner. At any time duriiifr your association with Carl
Thorman, did he give you orders relating to activities of the Com-
munist Party in the United States?
Mr. CoRBiN. He definitely did not. As I stated, he would be unable
to because I was not a Communist and he would be in no position to
discuss that with me.
Mr. Tavenner. Whether you are a Communist or not, my specific
question is, Did he give you any orders relating to Communist Party
activity?
Mr. CoRBiN. He was not in authority to give me a position. He was
just another member of the union.
Mr. Tavenner. My question is, Did he give them to you?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir ; absolutely not.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he advise you in connection with Communist
Party activities?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. You were acquainted, of course, with J. R. Robert-
son, vice president of the ILWU, who was your immediate supervisor.
Mr. CoKBiN. Bob Robertson, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Did vou know him to be a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he at any time give you orders relating to ac-
tivities of the Communist Party ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he give you any advice or counsel you in regard
to those activities ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Corbin, in what branch of the armed services
did you serve ?
Mr. Corbin. I served in the U.S. Marines, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Overseas, I believe.
Mr. Corbin. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Is there anything you desire to state regarding your
military record ?
Mr. Corbin. My military record? Well, I was proud to serve in
the U.S. Marines. I would do it again. I had an honorable discharge
with a citation.
Mr. Taat:nner. You were naturalized while you were a member of
the armed services ?
Mr. Corbin. That is correct, sir, and I was very proud of that.
Mr. Tavenner. W^hat was that date ?
Mr. Corbin. That would be in August. That would be in the fall,
perhaps aroimd September, I would say.
Mr. Tavenner. Of what year, 1943 ?
Mr. Corbin. 1943. Roughly around there.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you receive your discharge ?
Mr. Corbin. I got discharged in 1945, sir, the end of 1945.
Mr. Ta\t,nner. In December 1945, wasn't it?
Mr. Corbin. I tliink it was just prior to New Year's Eve, a couple
of days, 4 or 5 days, somewhere around that.
Mr. Taat.nner. Mr. Kennedy testified that he returned from the
Army on the 26th day of October 1945 and, after having been back
1418 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
in Rockford for 2 or 3 months, you returned from the Marine Corps.
At that time, Mr. Kennedy was working for a cooperative store in
Rockford. He testified that you came to see him three or four times
for the purpose of inducing him to form a labor management agency
with him. Is that correct ?
Mr. CoRBix. I visited, I was looking for work at the time, I recall,
and Joe Kemiedy was working in a cooperative store, and he informed
me that he was acquainted, because of his being business agent, with
the Furniture Workers Union factories in Rockford and he was
acquainted with several of the Chamber of Commerce members and
a. fellow by the name of Mr. Brown, who was a former mayor of Rock-
ford, and he thought it would be a good idea if an association was or-
ganized to represent the furniture plants in negotiations with the
union. There had been one in existence up to the time, and he thought
that he could get the account for the Furniture Workers and then use
that as a means of expansion to get other accounts. And I can't recall
what happened but it was never consmnmated. I went back to Janes-
ville where I was living.
Mr. Tavenxer. You went where?
Mr. CoRBiN. I was living in Janesville at the time, Janesville, Wis. ;
and it was just anotlier one of the ideas of Joe's.
Mr. Tavlxxer. Upon being asked whether you, Mr. Corbin, were
employed in Wisconsin in any way after getting out of the service in
a union capacity in which Emil Costello would have had close associa-
tions with you, Mr. Kennedy replied that you had been given a job
with the Wisconsin CIO News, which was a special edition of the
national C/0 News: is that correct? I mean were you so employed
with the CIO News ?
Mr. CoRBix. Yes ; after the service I was employed as an advertising
salesman for the Wisconsin CIO News.
Mr. Tavenxer. When did that employment begin and end ?
Mr. Corbix. Well, I can't give you exactly the exact dates but I
would assume it was, it would be, I w^ould say, the early part of 19-46,
sometime in 1946.
Mr. Ta\t:xxer. As early as April 1946 that you became employed ?
Mr. CoRBix. It might be a little earlier. I am not sure. It might
be earlier because I was looking for a job, and I got home on New
Year's Eve, and it might have been earlier than that. I am not sure.
Mr. Tavexxer. Did you remain employed there as late as June of
the same year?
Mr. CoRBix. I am not certain of the dates because, as I said before,
it was a long time ago ; but I worked there for 2 or 3 months. I am not
positive exactly.
Mr. Tavenxer. Was the Wisconsin CIO Neics laiown to you to be
Communist controlled ?
Mr. CoRBix. No. I had no knowledge of that.
Mr. TA^^xxER. Was Alfred Hirsch its editor at that time?
Mr. CoRBiN. He came upon the scene after I was there for about a
couple of weeks. I guess he was on vacation or leave or something
but he
Mr. Tavenxer. He was the editor?
Mr. CoRBix. He was the editor; yes.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1419
Mr. Tavenner. Was Alfred Hirsch a member of the Communist
Party to your knowledge?
Mr. CoRBiN. I would not know that, sir. I would not be in a posi-
tion to know that.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, Alfred Hirsch has been identified
as a member of the Communist Party. He has appeared before this
committee and refused to answer pertinent questions, relying on the
fifth amendment. As I say, he has been identified. Mr. Corbin, dur-
ing your association with Mr. Hirsch while he was editor, did he at
any time give orders to you relating to activities of the Communist
Party of the United States ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he advise or counsel you in any Communist
activities?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Was the Wisconsin CIO News dominated at that
time by Emil Costello ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I would not be in a position to know. The State CIO
newspaper was a paper which was published by the Wisconsin State
CIO wliich in turn was, consisted of every union in the State that was
affiliated with the CIO. I would say that I don't think there was, to
the best of my knowledge, any one man or two men or three men that
controlled that paper. There would have to be a vote taken at a con-
vention or an executive order.
Mr. ScHERER. What was Costello's connection with the paper at
that time ?
Mr. Corbin. Emil Costello was a representative of the Steelworkers
Union and he worked for the director of the Steelworkers Union at
the time, who was a member of the board of the paper.
Mr. ScHERER. A member of the board ?
Mr. Corbin. Of the paper, yes.
Mr. ScHERER. A three-man board ?
Mr. Corbin. I could not remember. I think it was more than that,
sir, but I would not be sure. It is a long time ago. I think it was
much more than that.
Mr. Tavenner. After leaving the employment of the Wisconsin
CIO News in June of 1946, what was your next employment ?
Mr. Corbin. I left the State CIO News over an argument over com-
missions, and there was a position becoming open in a local city
workers union, municipal workers imion ; that is the Public Workers.
There was a business agent who was leaving. There was a vacancy,
and the director of the Steelworkers Union
Mr. Tavenner. That is Mr. Costello ?
Mr. Corbin. No, Mr. Adelman and others told me about the vacancy,
and I became employed by them as a business agent dealing with the
city of Milwaukee and the county.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that the Garbage Workers' Union?
Mr. Corbin. That was one. They had several locals. The Garbage
Workers' Union was one of the locals.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Did you obtain that employment through Emil
Costello?
Mr. Corbin. I could not answer that. I can't remember offhand.
I think I was interviewed — no, I didn't. I was interviewed by
87845—62 13
1420 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
the — tliey had a local city workers council there consisting of the
garbage 'workers and the forestry branch and the hospital workers.
They had a council that intendewed me. They had the final say as to
whether they wanted me to represent them in bargaining because it
was not organizing, it was actually bargaining for them, for their
wages and hours; and they decided on that. I recall going to several
of their executive board meetings before they hired me.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Mr. Costello then obtain employment for you
as a representative of the Public Workers Union ?
h.- Mr. CoRBiN. No. No. It is a long time ago and I am just trying to
give you a reasonably honest answer. A long time ago. The local
council were taking the position that they were paying dues to the
international union and why should they pay my salary. They were
willing to pay part of it. They thought that the head office should pay
some of it and they would take it up with them; if they would be
willing to split — I forget what percentage it was — and they met with
the international union officers, and I believe that the international
union paid my entire salary and the council would maintain their
offices, some sort of arrangements. I forget what it was but there is a
negotiation between the Public Workers international and the council
itself.
Mr. Tavenner. My question was. Did Mr. Costello obtain this em-
ployment for you with the Public Workers Union ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I would say no. He might have. I am not in a posi-
tion to say if they called him up for recommendation. But to my
knowledge, no.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you become business agent of that union ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did your employment continue with it?
Mr. CoRBiN. I would say I left in March of, approximately Febru-
ary or March or April of 1948.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Wliat was your employment then ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I was a business agent and I got into an argument with
my union over
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. CoRBiN. Well, actually I got into an argument with the union
over my refusal to support Henry Wallace at the time although,
originally, when he came to Milwaukee to speak, I was asked if I would
have any objections to using my name on the stationery to bring him
in and I said, "No, I will listen to anybody," and when he came in T
heard him and I didn't think he had a winning platform and I stated
that and I got involved with an argument with the international union
over the telephone and I told them that I was an American citizen and
nobody was going to tell me how to vote. They said, "Your union"
Mr. Tavenner. What union is this?
Mr. CoRBiN. That is the Public Workers. They said, "Wlien you
work for our union you support whoever the international executive
board agrees." I said "Not when it comes to politics. I will vote for
whoever I want," and that was that, and I was out of a job again.
Mr. Tavenner. WTiat was your next employment ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Well, I had — while I was in the Public Workers I had
run across some marines that I met in the service and I got interested
in the Marine Corps work. So I had established a detacliment of the
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1421
Marine Corps League of my hometown in Janesville. I was elected
the first commandant and I began to sell advertising for Marine and
Navy and organization program books; and when I left the Public
Workers, I guess I w^as out of a job for about a week or two and then
I went directly into selling advertising. Incidentally, I wonder if I
may have permission to submit some of the articles that I had written
in the Marine, the Navy magazine pertaining to my feelings about
communism. In fact, I had made speeches in my activities with the
Marines across the country, fighting communism ; and I have excerpts
from newspapers, the Houston Chronicle and the Los Angeles papers
as to what I had said. I do not know if you want me to read it or do
you want me just to submit it?
Mr. Ta^^nner. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that we accept them for
the record ?
The Chairman. They may be received for the record.^
Mr. CoRBiN. In some of the news releases about my alleged Com-
munist activities that you are aware of, Mr. Tavenner, there were also
accusations made about my associations with Senator Joe McCarthy
at the same time. In fact, in some of the stories in the Mihoaukee
Journal, one fellow said I was a McCarthyite on Monday, and on
Monday afternoon said I was a Communist, which is rather incon-
sistent. I became interested in the Marine activity and I was elected
as the first World War II veteran as the commandant of the Marines
in my State and I invited Senator McCarthy as a speaker, which
accounts for some of the pictures in the Mihoaukee Journal with me
and the Senator with the arms around each other. I would like to
submit that, if I may, and also some of the telegrams and communica-
tions between me and Senator Joe McCarthy.
Mr. ScHERER. Were not all the Congressmen and Senators from
Wisconsin invited to this meeting ?
Mr. CoRBiN. At that time, at my first initial meeting with Senator
Joe McCarthy, it started with correspondence. He belonged to the
Appleton Marine Corps League detachment. Some of the marines in
Appleton were objecting to some of the positions that Senator Mc-
Carthy was taking.
Mr. ScHERER. That was not my question. My question was whether
or not all the Congressmen were invited.
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes, sir, most of them. I would say all of them were
invited.
Mr. ScHERER. And Joe McCarthy was the only one who accepted ?
Mr. CoRBiN. The reason he accepted
Mr. ScHERER. Wait a minute. Isn't he the only one who accepted ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes. The reason he accepted, sir, was that I had been
in correspondence with Senator McCarthy because, when I heard
rumblings about many being kicked out of the Appleton detachment,
I wrote him a letter and asked him to join the Janesville detach-
ment and I have his letter in his own personal handwriting where he
accepted. So we had correspondence through the mail ; and when I
sent him a telegram inviting him to speak to the State convention,
where I was the State commandant, he was the only one that accepted.
Normally the marines in Wisconsin were not large numerically, and
^ For documents submitted by Mr. Corbln, see appendix, pp. 1456-1465.
1422 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
most of the Senators and Congressmen — I would say all of them as
a rule — turned it down unless it was held in Milwaukee. Then, as a
rule, a Congressman would attend or, if it was an election 3'ear, they
would all be there. So, some of the charges that are made against me
about being a Communist— on the same day they were calling me a
Communist, I was being accused of being with Joe IMcCarthy and
making speeches against the "Truman war" and asking for more
vigorous action for victory, to drop the atom bomb across the Yalu
River and untying the hands of General MacArthur. That was my
position. I would like to submit some of these articles from the
newspapers.
I made those speeches. At the same time, of course, I incurred the
wrath of some new people. The Democrats in my home town were
irritated because I invited Joe to my detachment and was taking that
position, and I made an attempt at one time in a Democratic meeting
to get an endorsement of Senator Joe McCarthy's activity relative to
exposing communism. So I incurred their wrath, and years later on
they all came back and said, "We will get even with Corbin now."
Mr. Tavenner. All right now. During that period that you were
active in the Marine Corps League, you stated that you were engaged
in the advertising business with the Marine Corps League, is that
correct ?
Mr, Corbin. I signed contracts with them, yes. I sold for them on a
commission basis.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, you were representing the Marine Corps
League and, at the same time, you were doing business with them?
Mr. Corbin. Not when I held that position, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Who did you sign the contracts with ?
Mr. Corbin. With various detachments, with various detachments.
Mr. Tavenner. Who procured the work from those various detach-
ments ? "VVlio did the work ?
Mr. Corbin. I did.
Mr. Tavenner. So you did the work and then you signed the con-
tracts for payments to yourself ?
Mr. Corbin. No, Mr. Tavenner. I went outside the jurisdicton of
my State. I went to Illinois, Iowa. I never engaged in a contract
within my areas as commandant of Wisconsin even though at the time
I had left office.
Mr. Tavenner. You did not do it in your own name; is that what
you mean ?
Mr. Corbin. No, sir. I didn't do it under anybody else's name.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you in business at that time with Mr.
Kennedy ?
(At this point Mr. Doyle left the hearing room.)
Mr. Corbin. At what time are you referring ?
Mr. Tavenner. The time you are talking about when you were
having these contracts with the Marine Corps League for advertising.
Mr. Corbin. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Had you been in business with him before that, in
the advertising business ?
Mr. Corbin. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it after that ?
Mr. Corbin. It was after that. Excuse me.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1423
Mr. ScHERER. I move we recess for 15 minutes.
( Wliereupon, a short recess was taken.)
(Members present at time of recess: Kepresentatives Walter,
Moulder, Tuck, Scherer, Johansen, Bruce, and Scliadeberg.)
(Whereupon, at 3:20 p.m. the committee reconvened.)
(Members present: Representatives Doyle, Tuck, Scherer, Johan-
sen, and Schadeberg.)
Mr. Doyle, (presiding). It is now 3:20. A quoimm is present.
The meeting will come to order and we will proceed, please.
Are you ready, Mr. Tavenner, Witness and Counsel ? Let the record
show the committee members who are present, please : Mr. Schadeberg,
Mr. Johansen, Mr. Scherer, Mr. Tuck, and Mr. Doyle.
Mr. Tavenner. INIr. Corbin, what was the date on which you en-
tered into the advertising business with the Marine Corps League ?
Mr. Corbin. I am trying to recollect to the best of my Imowledge.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me put it to you this way. Were you still em-
ployed with your union at the time you entered into it?
Mr. Corbin. I am trying to answer that, Mr. Tavenner. You have
an advantage over me, Mr. Tavemier. You have all the facts there.
I am just trying to recollect them to the best of my ability. It has been
quite some time ago. When I worked for the union, as I stated, I had
become active in Marine affairs and organized my detachment. I am
just trying to give you a coherent answer as to how Joe Kennedy got
back in with me. I had put in a bid for the convention to be held in
Janesville, that our detachment should be host, and we were awarded
the convention. We had our problem at the time when you put on a
convention as to the finances of paying the expenses for the distin-
guished guests and the local commandant.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me interrupt you there. You said it was at
the time of that convention that you made this arrangement about
work for the advertising?
Mr. Corbin. No, I didn't say that. I am just trying to give it to
you in my words, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. I am trying to understand.
Mr. Corbin. Just give me a chance. It is very difficult for me
to exactly give exact dates. So I had gone over to the Rockford
detachment of the Marines, which is approximately 40 miles from
Janesville, to ask them if they could send some visitors over to make
the crowd look larger, and it was there that I ran across Joe Kennedy,
who informed me that he was now in the egg business and chickens.
He was a trucker — and cheese — and he was about to go out of it.
I said, "Didn't you go back to the labor movement, Joe?" He said,
"No, I am through with all that. I am going to stay in business."
I said, "You are?" I said, "If you are interested in a proposition
I can give you one, subject to the ratification of my detachment."
He said, "What is it?" I said, "Did you ever think of going in and
selling advertising?" He said, "I have never done it." I said, "We
are having a convention coming to Janesville and we have to hire
somebody to put out a program book. Would you be interested in
it? If you are, we are having an executive meeting. Come on
down." I was still working for the union. Joe came down to the
detachment and said, "What is the going rate?" I said, "As a rule
you pay 50 percent and you pay all the expenses." I said, "That is
1424 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
usually the arrangement that is made." He said, "All right. I will
take a crack at it." I was still working for the union. Our detach-
ment, the convention chairman and myself, as commandant, and the
paymaster and the adjutant, signed an agreement with Joe Kennedy.
I was still in the labor movement. One of the arrangements I be-
lieve— I am not positive — I don't think he was allowed to sell in
Janesville, although I am not sure of that. I think he could sell other
towns, but I am not positive of that arrangement. He had gone to
various cities, like Sheboygan and others, to sell advertising and
he was not doing very well, naturally, because he just started it. At
that time I quit my position with the union and went back to Janes-
ville and I lived with my mother-in-law. At that time I had already
decided what I was going to do.
I was going to go in the advertising business, selling ads for pro-
grams. Then I asked — we got a report from Mr. Kennedy who was
working for our detachment on his sales that were down.
Mr. Tavenner. This is the explanation that you said you wanted
to make earlier in your testimony as to how you became associated
with Mr. Kennedy ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes. I had asked him what he was doing. He was
no longer in the labor movement. He was trying to make an honest
dollar selling eggs and chickens and cheese. He had a truck. He
was telling me how hard he worked. Of course, I know a little bit
about farming. You have to go out and get the chickens and eggs.
Mr. Tavenner. Don't go so much into detail. It is a needless con-
sumption of time. Just address yourself more directly to the point.
Mr. CoRBiN. All right. I will try to do that. So I went with Joe
Kennedy. Joe was working in La Crosse for our detachment. His
sales were down. I said, "Joe, I am going to go in there as a com-
mandant of my detachment and I am going to show you how to sell,
and every sale I make is yours. I will get some of the local boys." I
went into La Crosse, met the Chamber of Commerce secretary, which
he had not done, conferred with the Chamber of Commerce, and
showed him how to sell. In the meantime, I had gone on my own and
got some other contracts for Labor Day papers, specifically in Rock-
ford for a paper they had called the AdvoccUer. After Joe had com-
pleted his job with the Marine Corps League, he went back to Rock-
ford and I met Joe in Rockford. I do not know whether he looked
me up or I looked him up and I said, "Joe, have you found something
to do yet?" He said, "No." I said, "I will tell you what, Joe. Are
you still interested in business or are you going back to the old labor
movement?" He said, "No, I am all through with the labor move-
ment, Corbin. I am trying to earn a dollar." I said, "Fine. Are
you interested in going in with me, going to Iowa and expanding to
Minnesota, and see if we can get some contracts?'' He said, "I can't
sell, Paul, as you know." I said, "That is all right. You will learn."
1 said, "It's lonely to sell alone. If you will come along with me, we
will go 50-50 and I will teach you how to sell advertising." So we
went into partnership. "We went into Iowa and we sold mainly
Labor Day programs or some form of labor ads, usually a bulletin
board. Excuse me. I am just trying to remember. After he finished
the Marine Corps thing, he left. That is right. He left.
Mr. Tavenner. Didn't you take on the Navy Club first?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1425
Mr. CoRBiN. Just a moment. Give me time, Mr. Tavenner. You
are way ahead of yourself another 6 months. He left and he went on
his own and he was selling ads for some organization in Waterloo.
I think it was a blood bank. He was on his own. Then when I met him
when I worked in Rockford, he had picked up experience on his own,
and I asked him how much he grossed and how he was doing and I said,
"OK, let's go in together." So we went in together and he said to me
he knew — and again I am trying to give you the best answer to the
dates, Mr. Tavenner, because 1 just haven't got tliat perfect a memory.
He said there was a Navy Club in Rockford which had the national
headquarters and they had a paper, a magazine, and he thought
maybe — ■ ho said he could not go there because he served in the Army
but, inasmuch as I was a marine, which is part of the Navy w^ith the
Coast Guard, that I should make an approach and they could check
me out on the basis of my Marine Corps activity back in Wisconsin.
Mr. Tavenner. So you were in partnership again.
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes. When I got the contract 1 believe, it might have
been a month or so before, we signed a partnership agreement where
Joe and I were partners. I don't know how long it lasted exactly.
You have the dates.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. It began in Feburary of 1948 and lasted up
until 1949.
Mr. CoRBiN. Right. The reason I quit with Joe Kennedy is I had
come to pick him up on Sunday to leave to go to work on Monday in
some other town and I was in there one Sunday and I saw a Daily
WorJcer on his desk, and I said, "Joe, I tliought you were through."
He said, "Well, they just mail it to me." I said, "Joe, that is out."
We would get into arguments and about a week later in Waukegan we
split up.
Mr. Tavenner. You split up, you say, over communism?
Mr. CoRBiN. Over his connection with the labor movement and,
also, some of the people in the Navy Club in Rockford were objecting
to Joe Kennedy selling ads for this Navy.
Mr. Tavenner. So you didn't want to have any more of him?
Mr. CoRBiN. That is right. That was the end of that.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. And you terminated partnership?
Mr. Corbin. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Then if you terminated the partnership why did
you write a letter on the 11th day of April 1949, in which you said:
Dear Joe :
Reason am writing, tried to reach you at home couple of times. I suppose
you are on the road. I have two deals plus one am finishing now, however.
I find that it gets monotonous working alone and I don't think it is as profitable
because two people sell more working together and now that you have a car it
would work out much better on the road because that was the reason for the
differences with you.
Would you call me at Janesville as soon as you get in town or drop over to
the house with Marion ? It is pretty cool up here but still not cool enough to suit
me. How's business? I understand you have swung a couple of big deals. I
have, too, Joe, but frankly, the money ain't coming in as it used to when we both
worked together. I don't like working alone.
I don't know how you feel about it, but I suppose if you feel the same as I do,
I think we could make more together by pooling our energies and resources and
I believe it is more congenial to work that way. However, I don't know how you
feel about it so am putting out a feeler, so to speak.
In any event, let me hear from you, Joe.
Paul.
1426 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. CoRBiN. May I see that letter, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. No ; I don't have it. But it was read into the record.
I saw it, but we don't have it.
Mr. CoRBiN. I don't recall ever writing such a letter to Joe Kennedy.
Mr. ScHERER. You did. I saw your signature. I saw the letter.
That shows that all of your testimony here
Mr. CoRBiN. I would like to see that letter, if I may.
Mr. Tavenner. We will get it for you to look at.
Mr. CoRBiN. I don't recall such a letter.
Mr. Tavenner. If that is your letter, then the statement you made
to us is misleading.
Mr. Scherer. You are kind when you say "misleading."
Mr. CoRBiN. I stand on my statement that I never asked Joe Ken-
nedy to come back or to go with him.
Mr. Tavenner. That is not the question. You did not terminate
the relationship because of any disagreement over communism. You
terminated it, according to this letter, because of disagreements over
the use of a car.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. Will you answer that question. Witness. I might
say that that letter is in your handwriting.
Mr. CoRBiN. Mr. Tavenner, I never wrote that letter.
Mr. TA\rENNER. Well, now, will you explain to us why you call Mr.
Kennedy a nut now, and you entered into partnership on at least two
different occasions with a man that you now call a nut. You didn't
think that he was a nut then, did you ?
Mr. CoRBiN. 'Wliat two occasions, Mr. Tavenner?
]Mr. Tavenner. The two that you have described.
Mr. CoRBiN. Once.
Mr. Tavenner. You said that you were working in connection with
him in the Marine Corps League and then that you stopped and then
later came in again.
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir. I didn't say that, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, the record will speak for itself.
Mr. CoRBiN. I would like to have that read back to me. I am sorry.
I was trying to explain to you that the only relationship I had was a
business deal with Joe when I signed — you have the dates — and we
terminated it. Now, the engagement that he had with the detach-
ment was not as a partner. I was working for the labor movement
when he was selling that for the detachment.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat do you mean by the detachment ?
Mr. CoRBiN. That is the Marine detachment.
Mr. Scherer. You got part of the money he made ?
Mr. Corbin. I certainly did not, sir. The records of the Janes-
ville detachment — and Congressman Schadeberg is from that area and
can check into it — the profits of that, Mr. Schadeberg, are lying in
the bank of Merchants & Savings. Ann Nolan in the Trust Depart-
ment is holding the profits of the sale of that advertising convention
for the purpose of either giving a scholarship or building a clubhouse.
The profits of that convention were converted in a bond at my resolu-
tion when I was commandant aud turned over to Mr. McKoberts, who
at that time was the president of the bank, who was a former marine,
who is since dead; and when he died, I went to see Mr. Matheson,
TESTIMONT BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBEST 1427
the bank president, and he said, "Don't worry, Paul. Ann Nolan has
got it in the Trust Department of the Merchants & Savings Bank."
That is where the profits are today.
Mr. ScHERER. Joe Kennedy made some profits on that.
Mr. CoRBiN. He worked for it. He sold advertising.
Mr. ScHERER. That he split with you. You could not take any on
the surface because of your connection with the Marine Corps.
Mr. CoRBiN. My answer to that, sir, is "No."
Mr. ScHERER. All right.
Mr. DoTT.E. Mr. Tavenner, we are going to have to go to that quoriun
call. I must go. I have a perfect record there, and I don't want to
break it. I will rush, though.
(Whereupon, at 3 :35 p.m. the hearing recessed.)
( Present at time of recess : Representatives Doyle, Tuck, Scherer,
Johansen, and Schadeberg.)
(The committee reconvened at 3 :50 p.m.)
(Present at the time the committee reconvened: Representatives
Walter, Doyle, Willis, Scherer, Johansen, Bruce, and Schadeberg.)
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavexner. Mr. Corbin, I want to apologize for having misread
a date, I misread the transcript as showing that the date was in April
1949 of the letter that I was questioning you about. So, I will ask
you a few other questions first and then clear up the matter of the date.
Mr. Corbin. In other words, sir, there is no date on the letter at all ?
Mr. Tam=;nner. No; and I am coming to that in just a moment.
Now, Mr. Corbin, where were you in the summer, in July of 1949?
Do you recall ?
Mr. Corbin. I can't remember. It would be impossible for me to
remember. I say it would be very difficult for me to remember.
Mr. Tavenner. Does this ref resli your recollection : That you were
in Green Bay, Wis. ?
Mr. Corbin. I have been in Green Bay several times, but I can't
recall whether it is the summer of 1949.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere did you stav when vou were in Green Bay,
Wis.?
Mr. Corbin. I can't remember. I can't remember. I know I was
at a convention in Green Bay, at a Marine Corps convention, and
I can't remember the year.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you stay at the Hotel Northland?
Mr. Corbin. When I was at the convention that is where I stayed
at.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, in order that there be no uncertainty about
the date of the letter, let me read you exactly from the testimony :
Question. * * *. Do you have that letter with you*"
Answer. Yes, I do.
Question. Would you care to read the letter?
Answer. Yes. It is on the stationery of the Hotel Northland and it is from
Green Bay, Wis.
Question. What is the date?
Answer. There is no date on the letter, but the envelope carries the date of
July 6, 1949.
Question. That is the postmark date?
Answer. Yes, sir. I have here that the last day of our partnership was
April 11, 1949, so this letter was several months later.
1428 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Now, I inadvertently referred to the date of the letter as being April
11, but the situation is as I have just read it from the testimony.
The Chairman. I think that clarifies it. Ask him about the date
of the envelope, the postmark.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you in Green Bay, Wis., on July 6, 1949?
Mr. CoRBiN. It is very difficult to give you an honest answer if
I was there at that date.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, I have read to you the letter.
Mr. CoRBiN. Will you read that letter again, sir. It has no date
on the letter, is that it ?
Mr. Tavenner. That is right, but there is a postmark date on the
envelope, which the witness testified contained the letter which I am
now going to read :
Dear Joe :
Reason am writing, tried to reach you at home couple of times. I suppose
you are on the road. I have two deals plus one am finishing now, however.
I find that it gets monotonous working alone and I don't think it is as profitable
because two people sell more working together and now that you have a car
it would work out much better on the road because that was the reason for
the differences with you.
Would you call me at Janesville as soon as you get in town or drop over
to the house with Marion? It is pretty cool up here but still not cool enough
to suit me. How's business? I understand you have swung a couple of big
deals. I have, too, Joe, but frankly, the money ain't coming in as it used to
when we both worked together. I don't like working alone.
I don't know how you feel about it, but I suppose if you feel the same as I do,
I think we could make more together by pooling our energies and resources and
I believe it is more congenial to work that way. However, I don't know how you
feel about it so am putting out a feeler, so to speak.
In any event, let me hear from you, Joe.
Paul.
Mr. ScHERER. Now, the witness has previously testified that he
never wrote such a letter.
Mr. CoRBiN. Sir, I do not recall writing such a letter. In view of
the fact it has no date, and I can't recall being in Green Bay on that
date, I would appreciate if I can see that letter before I answer that
question. I just can't remember. I can't visualize myself writing
such a letter, after I was glad to get rid of the guy, and I can't remem-
ber why I would be motivated to write to him. But I would like to
see that letter and the handwriting before I answer that question.
Mr. ScHERER. Witness, just a few minutes ago, before we recessed,
when I said I saw tlie letter and it was in your handwriting, why did
you say that you absolutely never wrote sucli a letter?
Mr. CoRBiN. Mr. Tavenner read off' a date to me, a specific date.
Mr. ScHERER. That was not involved in my question at all.
Mr. CoRBiN. He was so factual about it that my answer was "no,"
but, inasmuch as he now apologizes and there is a doubt as to the
existence of the letter
The Chairman. There is no doubt as to the existence at all. The
question is the date. That is all.
Mr. CoRBiN. Mr. Chairman, I just can't visualize Avhen I broke up
tliis partnership. I was glad to get rid of Mr. Kennedy because, first,
he could not sell as much as I did and, secondly, and the most impor-
tant thing, is that working for the Navy Club I was getting complaints
from the people in Rockford that he was very active in the labor
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1429
movement, and I was active in the Marines and knew he was reading
that literature and still, which indicated an interest in the labor move-
ment to the extent that I no longer had. So I disassociated myself,
and I was tickled to death to do that, and I can't visualize myself what
would motivate me to write Mr. Kennedy such a letter.
Mr. JonANSEN. When you say the type of literature that he was
reading indicated that he still had an interest in the labor movement,
don't you mean it indicated he still had an interest in the Communist
Party?
Mr. CoRBiN. Well, he was reading literature that I would not read.
Mr. JoHANSEN. You testified it was the Daily Worker.
Mr. CoRBiN. It was. The Daily Worker was the thing that I saw
which
Mr. JoiiANSEN. That didn't indicate a continuing interest in the
labor movement, did it?
Mr. CoRBiN. No.
Mr. JoHANSEN. It indicated a continuing interest in the Communist
Party, didn't it?
Mr. CoRBiN. That is correct. That is correct. It was a buildup of
reasons. I was getting remarks from certain Navy people that they
didn't think that Joe should be with me ; he was an Army man, he was
in the labor movement.
Mr. JoHANSEN. And reading the Daily Worker ?
Mr. CoRBiN. That was in my own mind, reading the Daily Worker,
I thought them all nuts for that.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you not yourself sell subscriptions to the Daily
Worker ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you not sell a subscription of the Daily Worker
to a prominent lawyer in Rockf ord ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you not regularly read the Daily Worker at one
time?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes. I will tell the truth. When I was in the labor
movement, in the union, in the union offices at that time we had the
CIO News laying around.
(At this point Mr. Tuck returned to the hearing room.)
Mr. CoRBiN. We had various workers' journals; the Daily Workers
laying around, just as if it was part of the labor movement, I might
have picked it up sitting there, just as I would any periodical, but I
was not a regular reader of the Daily Worker and I would just pick it
up as a regular labor medium at that time. At that time in the CIO
in those early days those were displayed around.
Mr. SciiERER. You are still saying in response to the question that
you never sold subscriptions to the Daily Workerl
Mr. CoRBiN. That is right, sir. I never sold subscriptions to the
Daily Worker.
Mr. ScHERER. That is all.
The Chairman. Go ahead, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. With regard to the Daily Worker^ here is this testi-
mony from Mr. Kennedy :
1430 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Question. Do you know whether he [meaning you] sold the Daily Worker?
Answer. He sold some subscriptions to the Daily Worker. I can give you a
specific instance.
Question. Go ahead.
Answer. He sold a subscription one time while I was present with a well-known
attorney in Rockford. I can't think of his name. Can I come back to that
question later? The name will come to me.
First of all, let's see if the name did come to liim. I believe it did.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Ta\t:nner (continuing) :
Question. There was a name of an attorney in Rockford who subscribed to the
Daily Worker being sold by Paul Corbin. Do you recall now who that was?
Answer. That was an attorney, James Berry.
Mr. CoRBix. I never sold a subscription in my life to Mr. Berry
or anybody else.
Mr. ScHERER. Do you know him ?
Mr. Corbin. I recall the name Mr. Berry ; yes.
Mr. Scherer. The question was, do you know him, not whether
you recall his name.
Mr. Corbin. Well, I haven't seen Mr. Berry I would say
Mr. Scherer. That wasn't my question. My question is, Do you
know Mr. Berry, or did you know Mr. Berrj^?
Mr. Corbin. I did know Mr. Berry. I wouldn't recognize him today
if he walked in here.
Mr. Tavenner. Another question was asked Mr. Kennedy regarding
Communist Party literature:
Question. Was the Communist Party literature or the Daily Worker ever sup-
plied you by either Paul Corbin or his wife?
Answer. Yes. Corbin brought me copies of the Daily Worker.
Mr. Corbin. That is not true, sir. I never did.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you subscribe to the Daily Worker yourself?
Mr. Corbin. I never paid for a subscription in my life to the Daily
Worker and I would like to explain that. In the labor movement
when you went to work, when I went to work for those unions, the
Daily Worker was automatically mailed to every organizer.
Mr. Tavenner. Then you received that regularly ?
Mr. Corbin. Well, it was sent to me on occasion. I think it was a
Sunday edition.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it sent to you at the Hotel Nelson in Rockford ?
Mr. Corbin. It might have been. I am not sure. I can't remember,
but I never paid.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you distribute the Daily Worker to any people?
Mr. Corbin. I never distributed a Daily Worker in my life to
anybody.
Mr. Johansen. You did distribute regular labor papers and mate-
rial in the course of your work; did you, or did you not?
Mr. Corbin. T\nien we were organizing a plant, we would mimeo-
graph pamphlets pertaining to that particular plant, to the working
hours and the conditions to get the people in the plant to join. That
is the extent of it.
Mr. Johansen. Regular printed labor organization newspapers?
Mr. Corbin. No.
Mr. Johansen. Or publications ?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1431
Mr. CoRBiN. No, no, no. Just the pamphlets which we would
mimeograph when you were organizing a plant.
Mr. Bruce. Did you at that time know that the Daily ^Yorker was
an organ of the Communist Party %
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes.
Mr. Bruce. And at this time, as I recall your testimony, you had
really no knowledge about conununism at all^ I mean, as I piece
together what you have told us, while you were in the labor move-
ment you didn't know whether any of these people were, and didn't
suspect that they were, mitil after you left the labor movement %
Mr. CoRBiN. I still don't know who the Conmiunists were.
Mr. Bruce. Didn't that strike you as strange, that you would
automatically receive, when you became a union organizer, the Com-
munist Daily Worker ? Didn't that arouse a suspicion in your mind.
Mr. CoRBiN. At that time, sir, in the labor movement, maybe I was
naive, more so than the next man, but I didn't know what communism
was.
Mr. Bruce. But you knew that the Daily Worker was a Conununist
publication ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes. I never knew that the Communist Party was
the enemy of this country. I never knew that they advocated the
overthrow of our country. I never knew the evil philosophy they
had. So help me God, that is the truth.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Why was it then that you were so incensed when
you saw the Daily Worker on the desk of Kennedy, to such an extent
that you would terminate your relationship with him ?
Mr. Corbin. At that time, sir, I had become really active in the
veterans affairs. I was reading literature and I was following more
closely the newspaper and, having come out of the Marine Corps,
as a matter of fact, that thinking started with Henry Wallace, who
was advocating peace; and I was watcliing the papers and, having
fought for the Marine Corps, I realized that these people are our
enemies. I was beginning to see that these guys were not for us
when they were moving on in Europe and it was purely as simple
that any man could see it.
Mr. Bruce. Sir, didn't you testify a few moments ago, if I recall,
almost verbatim, that if you had known any of these people were
Communists you wouldn't have worked for them for $3 an hour, or
$40 a week, or $4 million a week ?
Mr. Corbin. That is right.
Mr. Bruce. Why would you feel like that if you didn't know any-
thing about communism ?
Mr. Corbin. What period are you referring to, sir ?
Mr. Bruce. The period that you were in the labor movement in
Wisconsin.
Mr. Corbin. That was after the war, sir. I had been in the Marines
and I had been honorably discharged and I had fought in Saipan and
Okinawa.
Mr. Bruce. Wasn't your relationship with people who have been
identified as Communists during that period ?
Mr. Corbin. What was that, sir ?
1432 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL COEBIN
Mr. Bruce. Wasn't your ^vorkiiig relationship during that period
in this labor movement with people who have been identified as Com-
munists as well ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I don't know what people you are specifically referring
to, but after the war when I was in Milwaukee, I was a marine, I knew
what the score was, and I knew the Reds were our enemies. I knew
that. I knew that they were our enemy.
Mr. JoHANSEN. Was it when you were in Milwaukee that you were
held in connection with an anonymous call, that you were held by the
police?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir ; that was in Rockf ord.
Mr. JoHANSEN. That was prior to the war ?
Mr. CoRBiN. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JoHANSEN. And this is when the police detective told you that
Kennedy was reportedly a Commimist?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes.
Mr. JoHANSEN. And that was when you moved out of the house?
Mr. CoRBiN. It has been so long, and I am trying to recollect that.
I can't remember specifically the date or me moving out of Joe Ken-
nedy's house. It's so long.
Mr. JoHANSEN. Didn't the police detective's statement go to the
fact that you were living in his house ?
Mr. CoRBiN. If the facts show, sir, that I was living in the house
at that time, I would say the reasons, if I lived there, if I left, that
would be the reason for me leaving.
Mr. ScHERER. You told us just this morning that the police lieuten-
ant told you, "Do you know that you are living with a man who is a
member of the Communist Party ?"
That is the substance of your testimony this morning.
Mr. CoRBiN. Excuse me.
Mr. ScHERER. When you went to the police headquarters and reg-
istered when you were arrested, you gave
Mr. CoRBiN. Joe's address?
Mr. ScHERER. Kennedy's address.
Mr. CoRBiN. That is where I lived then.
Mr. ScHERER. I asked you this morning, if it wasn't a fact that you
weren't living with Kennedy at that time but that you gave his ad-
dress because of his influence ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Influence.
Mr. ScHERER. Yes. Kennedy and his officials had great influence
with the police officials.
Mr. CoRBiN, Sir, I had nothing to hide. I committed no crime.
When they took me in there I had nothing to hide. I wasn't looking
for influence.
Mr. ScHERER. That is the time you told us they held you 4 days?
Mr. CoRBiN. I did not use his name for influence. I had nothing
to worry about. I committed no crime.
Mr. ScHERER. May I ask one more question, Mr. Counsel. Mr. Cor-
bin, as I understand it, you testified that you talked with Kennedy
after you had both returned from the war and that you proposed to
Kennedy that he go into the selling of advertising for the Marine
Corps League. Is that correct ?
Mr. CoRBiisr. Yes.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNESTG PAUL CORBIN 1433
Mr. ScHERER. How did it happen that you would make that pro-
posal with respect to selling advertising for the Marine Corps League
to a man whose home you had moved out of because you had been
told he was a Communist ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Sir, during that period of years he had joined the
service. He was in the Army. He came out of the Army, sir, and
he no longer was in the labor movement. He had a truck and he was
selling butter, cheese.
Mr. ScHERER. Yes, but the labor movement, I assume, is not synony-
mous with the Communist Party. Did you, when you approached
him on this possible enterprise, discuss with him the question of
whether he had been a Communist ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Sir, I didn't think that in my mind. Maybe I am
stupid, or was stupid or still am, but I just couldn't see a Communist
working, throwing crates of eggs in a truck and doing hard work to
make a living. I just couldn't see a Communist doing that. I always
associated the Communists as being
Mr. ScHERER. The fact is you did not, at any time in connection
with this suggestion that he start selling advertising for the Marine
Corps League, raise the question of his having been a Communist.
Mr. CoRBiN. I asked him the question if he was interested in the
labor movement. When I asked him that I was referring to his
activities.
Mr. ScHERER. Wliat reason did you have to believe that he knew
you were referring to the matter of Communist affiliation ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Well, I don't know what reason he would have, but I
always associate with the Commmiists being in the labor movement.
Mr. ScHERER. Do you associate people being in the labor movement
as being Communists automatically ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. It seems to me that that is the implication.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. CoRBiN. In those days, sir, in those days.
Mr. Tavenner, Have you finished ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I didn't ask him that question but I assumed that he
was out of it, sir. He had been in the Army. He had fought for his
country. He should have learned some patriotism.
Mr. ScHERER. Later on you dissolved that partnership because you
found him reading the Daily Worker'^.
Mr. CoRBiN. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. I asked you a question a while ago that you didn't
answer, and I would like to come back to it.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. You called Mr. Kennedy a nut. That is, you call
him that now.
How can you square that with your having entered into a partner-
ship arrangement with him that lasted over a period of several years ?
Mr. Corbin. Several years?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, 1948 and 1949.
Mr. CoRBiN. What was the exact dates on that, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. My recollection is that Mr. Kennedy says it term-
inated in April of 1949.
Mr. CoRBiN. It started when ?
1434 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBEN
Mr. Tavenner. And it began in 1948.
Mr. CoRBiN. I didn't leave the labor movement until April of 1948.
It had to have been less than a year, sir, not several years.
JNIr. Tavenner. All right. Say a year.
Mr. CoRBiN, Or less than a year.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, answer my question, please, sir.
Mr. CoRBiN, What was the question ?
Mr. Tavenner. Read the question.
(The pending question was read.)
Mr. CoRBiN. Well, the partnership, as the evidence shows, has lasted
less than a year; and, as I repeatedly stated, Joseph Kennedy came out
of the service. He was no longer in the labor movement. He was
working hard on this cheese-and-butter-and-egg thing. He had also
fought in the war, and I assumed that his interest was in business and
1 just couldn't see a guy who was interested in business or working
hard, a Communist. Maybe I am naive. I just can't put them
together.
Mr. Scherer. You weren't talking about Communists. You were
talking about a nut, weren't you, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr, Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Corbin. That is the same thing. He came out of the service.
He was working hard. He was a different fellow.
Mr. Scherer. Then the fact that he had a Daily 'Worker on his desk
is the reason that you called him a nut ? That is the reason ?
Mr. Corbin. I would say one of the reasons, yes.
Mr. Scherer. Any other reason ?
Mr. Corbin. Well, Joe was a little frustrated, a little upset. He
was brought up a very strong Catholic and left the church. He was
also — well, as far as I was concerned, I thought he was a nut as far
as his personal makeup was concerned.
Mr. Scherer. All right.
Mr. Tavenner. But he was the type of nut that you would go in
business with.
Mr. Corbin. As I stated, Mr. Tavenner, when he came out of the
service, he had settled down and he had this truck and he was trying to
make a go of it. He had been in the Army.
Mr. Tavenner. All right.
Mr. Corbin, in addition to sections 3 and 4 of title 50, United States
Code, section 844, which I read, I would like to call your atten-
tion to item 6 of the matters which shall be considered in determining
membership or participation in the Communist Party. It reads as
follows :
(6) Has conferred with officers or other members of the organization in behalf
of any plan or enterprise of the organization ;
During the period from 1946 to 1948, when you were extensively
engaged in trade union activities, several instances of unusual note
occurred. One was the veterans march on Madison, the State capital.
This occurred on April 13, 1946. Were you a member of the Wiscon-
sin State CIO Veterans Committee at the time of this occurrence?
Mr. Corbin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you become a member of the Wisconsin
Veterans Committee ?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1435
Mr. CoRBiN. I can't remember the exact date.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, you had been out of the service only about
5 months, had you not ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. How soon after you got out of the service did you
become a member of that organization ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I would assume, and I can't give the exact date, that
when I was in the labor movement in Milwaukee that I w^ould naturally
be drawn into the CIO Veterans Committee.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted at this time with Fred Blair,
the liead of the Communist Party for the State of Wisconsin ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, I was not.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Fred Blair ?
Mr. CoRBiN. That all depends what you meant, "acquainted." I
probably met him.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you first meet him ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Well, I believe the first time, we used to go to a place
called Childs there for coifee, the organizers in the CIO hall ; and we
went in there one day and we sat around and this fellow came in and
sat down and he said, "This is Mr. Fred Blair."
He said, "What do you do," and he said "I am some official of the
Communist Party," and I sort of laughed and after I finished my
coffee I left, and I might have seen him once or twice on occasions such
as that.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you at any time ask advice of Fred Blair as to
what veterans organization you should affiliate with?
Mr. CoRBiN. Aosolutely not.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you given orders or counseled in any way by
the Communist Party or any members of it
Mr. CoRBiN. Absolutely not.
Mr. Tavenner. Wait a minute — regarding the planning of the
march on the State capital or your participation in it?
Mr. CoRBiN. Absolutely not. The march on the State capital was —
every GI who didn't have a home and had the problem of housing was
vitally interested. I believe it was in regard to State loans for GI's
to buy homes and I believe — I don't believe I know what the exact
figure, but there must have been a couple of thousand of us veterans
from all over the State that went to Madison.
Mr. Tamsnner. Were you one of the delegates that called on the
Governor on that occasion ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes, I believe I was the secretary or had some title in
the veterans. It believe it was the secretary.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Emil Costello also a member of the delegation
with you ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes. I believe he was. I am not positive but I be-
lieve he would be, because he was a veteran. He would be there. I
can't recall seeing him there but I would imagine that it would natu-
rally follow that lie would be.
Mr. Tavenner. Another incident of note occurred during the period
of your involvement with trade union activities and that was the
Allis-Chalmers strike. The committee has ascertained from its in-
vestigation that during the latter pait of April 1947 a defense com-
87845—62 14
1436 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
mittee was set up to reinstate the 91 employees who had been
discharged by Allis-Cliabners and that PhiUp Smith of TJE was
elected chairman and you were elected treasurer, is that correct?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Philip Smith a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. CoRBiN. I have no idea of knowing.
Mr. Tavenner. During your association with Philip Smith, did he
at any time give orders to you relating to activities of the Communist
Party i
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Tlie committee's information also is that a commit-
tee was elected from the floor of the meeting consisting of three per-
sons to assist the officers in their work and that this committee
consisted of Harold C^hristoffel, Hyman Cohen, and Al Hirsch. Do
3'ou recall whether that is correct, that those three persons assisted
you?
Mr. CoRBiN. I can't remember because I resigned from that com-
mittee. I don't remember the dates. I resigned from that committee.
Mr. Tavenner. Were they not designated at the same time that
you were elected treasurer ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I can't remember that, sir. I don't remember even if
I was there when I was elected treasurer. It was a strict question of
trade unionism w^ith 91 people discharged. The entire labor move-
ment in Wisconsin were supporting that strike, and I recall vaguely
that the reason they wanted me as secretary was because I worked up
in the office and I liad a desk, an office there, and they wanted to know
if I would be secretary or treasurer. I can't remember what it was.
Mr. Tamsnnj^r. It was treasurer, I think.
Mr. CoRBiN. Treasurer, and I said, "That is all right with me." I
said, "won't do any work because I am too busy but it is all right for a
place for the mail to come in."
I said, "That is OK with me," because everybody at that time, the
entire labor movement in Wisconsin, were supporting the Allis-
Chalmers workers.
Mr. Tavenner. My question to you was about Harold Christoffel,
Hyman Cohen, and Al Hirsch being a committee to assist.
Mr. CoRBiN. I don't see how they could assist me because I wasn't
doing anything. I was treasurer.
Mr. Tavenner. As a treasurer, didn't you collect funds?
Mr. CoRBiN. I didn't collect them. They had — I am pretty positive
that they mailed out brochures across the country. They had girls
sending out brochures for an appeal for the fund and the address was
to send the check to the treasurer, to me.
Mr. Tavenner. And you received the money ?
Mr. CoRBiN. It was mailed to me, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you know Harold Christoffel to be a member
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, I did not, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you know Hyman Cohen to be a member of
the Commmiist Party ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1437
Mr. Tavenner. I have already asked about Al Hirsch. Now, did
eitlier Harold Christoffel or Hyman Cohen give you any directions
regarding any matters relating to Communist Party activities?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever take orders of any character from any
of the three, including Hirsch ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir. No, sir.
Mr. TxWENNER. Now, I want to read three more sections of the
elements going into the matter of determining membership or par-
ticipation in the Communist Party. Item 1, in the statute:
(1) Has been listed to his knowledge as a member iu any book or any of the
lists, records, correspondence, or any other document of the organization ;
(7) Has been accepted to his knowledge as an officer or member of the organ-
ization or as one to be called upon for services by other officers or members of
the organization ;
(13) Has in any other way participated in the activities, planning, actions,
objectives, or purposes of the organization ;
Now, I propose to ask you various questions relating to alleged con-
ferences between you and other persons regarding membership in the
Communist Party. I will have occasion to refer to your wife, Ger-
trude Cox Corbin. I will not ask you any question as to your knowl-
edge of her alleged Comnuniist Party activities, but it will be neces-
sary to question you regarding statements alleged to have been made
by you regarding her. Now, I desire, first, to read from the testimony
of Mr. Kennedy :
* * * I understand that she [referring to your wife] became a member of the
party iu Chicago before he went to service in World War II : that he did not
Ibecome a member then because he was not a citizen. This is what they told me.
I don't know whether it w^as true or not.
Question. Whom do you mean by "they"?
Answer. Paul and Gertrude Corbin. Then, when they went to the West Coast,
she was active and he became a citizen during the service and then went back to
Wisconsin and then became a member of the party. That is the way the picture
has been presented to me by the Corbins.
This is Mr. Kennedy :
I understand from conversations with the Corbins that Mrs. Gertrude Cox
Corbin became a party member when the.v lived in Chicago, prior to his going into
the Marine Corps. Then I further understand from conversation with them that
she transferred her membership when she was moved to the West Coast, to San
Diego, with Paul Corbin.
Question. Was it in that general area of tho.se same conversations that you
learned of his having become a member of the party after he became a citizen
in Milwaukee?
Answer. Sir, the conversations wherein he told me of his membership in the
party, of course, occurred after the war and concerned his membership in
Milwaukee.
Question. About when were those conversations?
Answer. I would say several times during the year 1946.
Question. That was in conversations where — in Milwaukee or where?
Answer. At my house in Rockford and at his mother-in-law's house in .lanes-
ville and at his apartment in Milwaukee.
Now, did you at any time make any statement to Mr. Kennedy that
you had become a member of the Communist Party in Milwaukee?
Mr. Corbin. No, sir. Absolutely.
Mr. Scherer. Or were the statements read to you by Mr. Tavenner
true or false ?
1438 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. CoRBiN. Absolutely false.
Mr. Tavenner. At another place Mr, Kennedy testified that:
* * * She [meaning Mrs. Corbin] wrote letters to my wife, and so on, and he
wrote one or two letters to me and they were talking about some of their activi-
ties, and so forth.
Question. Do you have any letter from either Mr. or Mrs. Corbin indicating
their activities in the Communist Party or connection with it?
Answer. I am sure I don't have because we moved a couple of times since
then, and I did not save them.
Question. What was the nature of the letters?
Answer. Just personal letters, and some of the activities she was carrying
on.
I might add for the record, while she was in California, she had something to
do with penetrating the Telephone Workers Union and trying to get the Tele-
phone Workers Union to leave its independent status and become affiliated with
the CIO Communications Workers of America,^ which was leftwing dominated.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner (continuing).
Question. Did you have any further discussion after getting out of the service
with Paul Corbin regarding Communist Party membership by him?
Answer. Yes. Every time I would see him he would be talking about how he
was wheeling and dealing and he was always talking about Fred Bassett Blair,
who I believe was State chairman of the Communist Party of Wisconsin, and
Harold Christoffel, who I am sure is well known to this committee, and Costello,
and a number of other people whose names I do not remember.
I was busy in the egg business and I did not pay too much attention to it. I
was working about 12 hours a day then.
Question. I believe you said he told you how he was always wheeling and
dealing with these known Communists.
Answer. Yes, sir.
Question. Could you just tell us the nature of his wheeling and dealing as he
related it to you?
Answer. I can't really remember too much. He specifically used to tell about
going out with this Fred Bassett Blair, with whom he had some sort of an
affinity, and sit around having a Scotch or a beer and talking ;ibout all sorts of
things about the party ; but, as I say. I was not active in the party then and
I really didn't pay much attention, you know, about the specific things that
he discussed with Mr. Blair.
Question. But he told you of Communist discussions with known Communists?
Answer. Yes, sir, he did.
Question. Did he specifically state whether or not he was at that time a
member of the Communist Party?
Answer. Yes, he did.
Question. Tell us in more detail about that.
Answer. On several occasions when he would drop in to see me, he told me
about he and Fred Bas.sett Blair associating together and being at meetings and
he told me about being at some party meeting and getting into a fist fight and
slugging one of his fellow comrades and a lot of things like this. I did not pay
too much attention to it in detail.
Question. Did he at any time make any statement to you regarding any par-
ticular phases of Communist Party work in which he was engaged?
Answer. He was interested in work in the trade union field and following the
party line of the then dominant group in the Wisconsin State CIO.
Mr. SciiERER. I tliink at this point, Mr. Chairman, I should ask the
witness again whether or not any of the statements made by Mr. Ken-
nedy as read to him by Mr. Tavenner, were false,
Mr. Corbin. Mr. Tavenner, I would like to answer that question
now to you. No. 1, inasmuch as my wife's name is interjected into this
thing, I would like to say those who know my wife know that she has
been a Republican Party member
Mr. Tavenner. Just a minute.
1 Actually the American Communications Association.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1439
Mr. CoRBiN. You raised my wife's name, and I have a constitutional
privilege to defend her. She has been a member of the Republican
Party all her life. She had been a member of the Congregational
Church all her life. Anybody talking about my wife penetrating
unions on behalf of communism is absolutely crazy and should be in-
carcerated. As far as following the line, in Milwaukee during that
period, there were articles written in the Milwaukee Sentinel exposing
every fellow traveler and alleged Communist, by the Mihoaukee Senti-
nel. You can check every single article in that resume and, at no time,
w^ere all the labor leaders who were mentioned or people who worked
in the labor movement in Milwaukee — everybody's name was men-
tioned but Paul Corbin, I was never a follower of the Communist
line, never voted with the Communists. That is a matter of record.
You can go to the Mihoaukee Sentinel and see the expose. At no time
was the name of Paul Corbin mentioned. The answer to the question
is entirely, absolutely "No."
Mr. Tavenner. I was merely trying to advise you that I am not
asking you to answer any question regarding your wife, but if you
want to do it voluntarily, that is your privilege.
Mr. Corbin. You raised the point, and I am just trying to tell you
my wife is a very deeply religious woman, a member of the Republi-
can Party, and the arguments we have had is because I am a Demo-
crat and she is a Republican. We have had a hard time keeping her
quiet during the campaign. She voted for Mr. Schadeberg, went up
and down the streets of Janesville, got his petition signed, and I believe
signed his petition nomination in my home town of Janesville.
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Tavenner, is there an answer to my last question ?
Mr. TA^^:NNER. Yes, I thought there was.
Mr. CoRBiN'. My answer is
Mr. ScHERER. My last question was whether or not the statements
made by INIr. Kennedy before this committee under oath, as read to
you by Mr. Ta vernier, are true or false.
Mr. Corbin. They are false, sir.
Mr. Willis. Mr. Chairman, would it be permissible for me to be
excused for about 5 minutes ?
The Chairman. Surely.
Mr. Hooker. Excuse me, just 1 minute, Mr. Tavenner.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. Were you advised at any time by Fred Blair •
Mr. Corbin. Mr. Tavenner, Mr. Kennedy has made serious charges
and this is the greatest day of my life, because I love America and
would die for it, just like any other man in this room. He says about
letters being sent to him. Why doesn't he produce all these commu-
nications, all these evidences? Pie just reads off a bunch of charges.
Mr. Tavenner. All right. Were you advised by Fred Blair to at-
tend Communist Party meetings at Beloit, Wisconsin?
Mr. Corbin. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Giacomo, John Giacomo, are you acquainted
wdth him ?
Mr. Corbin. Yes, very well.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Giacomo has related under oath that you
claimed that you were engaged in formulating Communist Party
policy. Is that true ?
1440 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
I said, Did you tell him that ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Absolutely not, sir.
Mr. Giacomo used to go around Milwaukee and call me a s]3y for
the FBI and the employers, because everybody's name was in tlie ex-
pose of Communists but me. He says, "That's the guy that is doing it
right here. Look at him."
Mr. Sgherer. Were you ever an undercover agent for the FBI ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir.
The accusation's made, and now Mr. Giacomo has changed his ac-
cusation, because when I was in Milwaukee every day he would go by
my office. "Well, how's the labor spj^? How is the FBI agent?"
Mr. Tavenner. And you were on friendly terms with him, were you
not?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes, I was. You lived in an office. You meet him.
In fact, I like Giacomo.
Mr. Tam5nner. Did you ever solicit him to become a member of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Corbin. Absolutely not.
Mr. Ta^t.nner. I read you some of his testimony :
Question. Did you have an occasion to discuss with Paul Corbin any matters
related to the Communist Party?
Answer. No ; Paul had never discussed it with me. May I just take it from
there?
Question. Yes.
Now this is testimony before this committee :
Answer. Paul had never discussed this thing of communism with me as a
general discussion, but he did one day entering into the building at 108 West
Wells Street, where the United Steehvorkers had their district headquarters,
ask me — put it to me substantially this way, and I don't recall his exact words —
"Are you — M^heu are you going to join the party?" Of course, I just shoved
it off and told him I had not thought about it at all.
On another occasion —
Let me ask you first
(Counsel conferred with witness.)
Mr. Tavenner. That statement is correct?
Mr. Corbin. I would like to explain it this way, Mr. Tavenner: In
my mind, Mr. Giacomo always impressed me as different than the
rest of the fellows up there. We used to go out together. In fact,
I was one of tlie very few people that he invited to his oldest daugh-
ter's wedding. We liked each other because, in retrospect, we were
probably different than the other fellows that were around tliere, and
I used to facetiously and on several occasions used to needle Giacomo.
I would say "John, how's the Communist Party going?" In my mind
I felt that he wasn't, because he was a little different. We voted dif-
ferent. I used to occasionally kid him because he was connected witli
Steelworkers and had been there years before I got there, and I always
used to needle him about not being in the service. I would say, "How
come you didn't fight for your country ? What are you, a Commu-
nist?"'
I might have said that in the elevator, because I always used to like
to needle the guys wlio stayed out of the service.
Mr. Tavenner. Then you admit you said to him, ""Wlien are you
going to join the party ?"
Mr. Corbin. No, I never said that to him.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1441
Mr, Tavenner. What is all this explanation about ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I would facetiously needle him about being a Commu-
nist or I might have said "Have you joined? Are you a Red?-'
Mr. Tavenner. Or "When are you going to join the party ?"
Mr. CoRBiN. Oh, no.
Mr. Bruce. Is Giacomo the man that you testified a moment ago
spread all over the area that you were an FBI spy ?
Mr. CoRBiN. That's correct.
Mr. Bruce. And yet he was a friend of yours ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I didn't feel insulted by being associated with the FBI.
Mr. JoHANSEN. But he also accused you of being a company spy,
did he not ? Didn't you so testify ?
Mr. CoRBiN. He used to say, " You think like the employers do."
Mr. ScHERER. You just testified a few minutes ago that he accused
you of being a company spy.
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes, he accused me of that.
Mr. JoHANSEN. WavS he just needling you when he did that ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Well, sir, he has been doing it ever since I left the labor
movement, so evidently he hadn't been needling. He still says it. In
fact, he claims in Milwaukee that he said that in front of the committee.
Mr. Tavenner. That he said what in front of the committee ?
Mr. CoRBiN. That I was a labor spy and spy for the Republican
Party and an FBI agent.
Mr. ScHERER. I think you should ask him about the next sentence.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me read you the rest of his answer.
On another occasion, Paul asked me, "Why don't you join the Communist
Party?" I put it off again. Just when this was I don't know, but it had to be
from the period in 1946 or 1947, sometime in there, because, as I say, the cleanup
in the labor movement in the State of Wisconsin came in the fall, I think, of 1947,
when they had a convention in Wisconsin where they threw out all of the so-
called Communists and the other fellows took over. On one or two occasions
he asked me if I wanted to make a contribution to the party.
Mr. CoRBiN. That, sir, is untrue, false.
The Chairman. "VVliat reason would there be for your friend to make
such a false accusation ?
Mr. CoRBiN. It is a very hard thing to understand what motivates
people to say things. He, as of this date, sir, will tell people in Wis-
consin that he is willing to bet his life he would be the most surprised
man in the world if I have turned out to have been a Communist. He
says that every day in the street, he just can't visualize Paul Corbin
bemg a Communist. He has told that to several people. Yet, in the
same breath, he says that I asked him to join and, in the same breath,
he says he w^ould be the most surprised man in the world if I was, that
I am an FBI spy. I can't understand wdiat motivates people.
Mr. Doyle. Do I understand that you have information that he is
saying just wliat you said recently in Milwaukee ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. In the last month or two ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, not the last month or two. I heard that, sir, when
all this controversy
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. CoRBiN. Wliat was that question, sir ?
Mr. Doyle. AVill the reporter please read it ?
1442 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
The Chairman. I heard "when all this controversy," is what you
said.
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes. I will tell you specifically where I heard it.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. CoRBiN. The person who told me this statement. Is that the
question ?
Mr. Doyle. I asked whether or not you had heard recently from
Milwaukee that Giacomo was making the statement that you just
related you heard him make.
Mr. CoRBiN. I was told that Giacomo was making the statements
that he would be the most surprised man in the world if I ever was
a Communist, he just couldn't visualize me being a Communist, he
thought I was a spy for the Republican Party or the employers or the
FBI, and the only reason he objected to me working for the Demo-
cratic Party, he thought I was in the pay of the Republican Party.
Mr. JoHANSEN. When was this statement supposed to have been
made?
Mr. CoRBiN. It was supposed to liave been made after he had ap-
peared in front of this committee. He is supposed to have made this
statement to this committee.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, that is what I had reference to.
The witness wlien he appeared here testified as I have stated, but he
also said —
* * * I hardly believe that he was so [that is, a Communist Party member]
because he was dedicated to that ideology or the principles of that party.
In other words, that is his language, that he didn't believe that you
were a member of the Communist Party insofar as being dedicated
to the ideology or the principles of the party. He stated tTiat.
Mr. Doyle. Did he testify that w^ay before this committee?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. And when this question was asked him :
But you indicate that, from all of these conversations that you had with him
and the statements he made concerning the party or the Communist Party,
there was no doubt in your mind that he was a member of the party.
His answer was :
At first I thought he was, but then I began to revise my thinking on this
and since then I have held to that revision of my thinking. It seems to me
that it just does not jibe. It would not surprise me if Paul didn't give the
writer of the John Sentinel articles some information or help him in the
formulation of the story.
So he did take the position with the committee that Mr. Corbin
said certain things but, in spite of Mr. Corbin's admission, he didn't
believe they were true. That was the sum and substance of his testi-
mony. But now I want to refer to
Mr. Scherer. Are you going to pursue further discussions that
Giacomo had with the FBI about Corbin reporting on him ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, I can.
Mr. Sgherer. I think it is important.
Let me ask. Wlien was the last time you saw Giacomo ?
Mr. Corbin. Giacomo?
Well, it is either — I am not quite certain — it was either the Demo-
cratic National Convention in Los Angeles, or I might have bumped
into him at the inaugural ball here in January of 1961, but I am not
sure.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1443
Mr. ScHERER. Have you seen him since ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, I have not.
Mr. ScHERER. Have you talked to him on the phone ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. Nobody on your behalf has talked to him ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Congressman, to follow up the question that
you asked me to go into :
Question. AVhat was your next personal relationship with Paul Corbin after
he returned to Janesville?
Answer. I don't know whether it was in 1947 or the 1949 session of the legis-
lature— ^I wish I could remember this vividly but I can't — 1947 or 1949 legisla-
ture in the State of Wisconsin. I was engaging in just some general discussions
with Paul Corbin. He, as usual, looked around to see that no one could hear
and he said, "Giacomo, the FBI was over to my house." I said, "Why were
they over to your house?" Paul said, "They want some information concerning
you," meaning me. I said, "What have I done now?" "Well," he said, "the
FBI has a jigsaw puzzle and all of the pieces fit. They have all the pieces fitting
firmly in place with the exception of one. Now this jigsaw puzzle is not going
to mean a thing to them until they get this one piece in its place. They think
that one piece is you. So they are asking me what I know about you."
I said, "Yes, Paul, what did you tell them about me? What did you know
about me?"
He said, "I told them to lay off you. You are a good guy, a clean guy, and
I defended you."
Now, Mr. Corbin, did that occur substantially as related by Mr.
Giacomo ?
Mr. Corbin. No, sir.
Mr. ScHERER, Did you say, "No, sir" ?
Mr. Corbin. That is correct.
Mr. ScHERER. Did the FBI ever talk to you about
Mr. Corbin. Can you reread the question because
Mr. Tavenner. You better repeat it.
(The pending question was read by the reporter.)
Mr. Tavenner. Let's be more specific.
(The witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Corbin. I will explain my version of it, gentlemen. I can't
remember the exact year, but one of my neighbors came over and said,
"Paul, there was an FBI agent called on me and wanted to know what
I thought of you as a neighbor and asked questions, where I thought
you was born."
Mr. Tavenner. Wanted to know about whom ?
Mr. Corbin. About me, my neighbor. And, oh, about 2 weeks later
I ran into another citizen of Janesville who told me substantially the
same thing. So I picked up a telephone and called the nearest FBI
office, which was in Madison. I told them if they wanted to know
any questions about me, where I was born, what I did, that I lived
at 775 South Fremont Street and they were welcome to come, I would
be very glad to answer any questions.
They said they would. I can't remember — It's quite some time
ago — but at that time I believe they asked
Mr. Tavenner. Can you remember about when this was ?
Mr. Corbin. No, I can't remember what year it was, roughly, I
can't remember. It was after the war. It was after I left the labor
movement.
Mr. Tavenner. Then it was after 1948 ?
87845 O-02 15
1444 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr, CoRBiN. Yes. Tliey asked me some questions, asked me if I
was a member of the Communist Party; and I said I was not, never
had been ; and he asked me about what I thought about some people,
what I thought at that time, and he asked me about John Giacomo,
and I told him I did not think he was a Communist based upon his
behavior in retrospect ; and I met Giacomo — I don't know exactly
where I met him — and I said to him, "John, the FBI was over at my
house. They asked me about you, and I told them that I didn't
think that you were ever a Communist.*' That was the extent of
the conversation.
Mr. Tavenner. You didn't say anything to him to the effect that
they thought that he was the one piece that would solve the jigsaw
puzzle ?
Mr, CoRBiN. No. I called the FBI and asked them to come over and
talk to me.
Mr. ScHERER. Did the FBI question you about your membership
in the Communist Party ?
Mr, CoRBiN. Yes. As I said previously, they asked me if I ever was
a member of the Communist Party, and I said "Never have been and
I am not now."
Mr. ScHERER. Was that all they asked you ?
Mr. CoRBiN. They asked me various questions. They stayed in the
house — I don't remember — a half hour or so. It is hard to remember.
Mr. ScHERER. They stayed in there longer than that, did they not?
Mr. CoRBiN. I can't remember. I am doing this to the best of my
ability.
Mr, ScHERER. "VYliat did they ask you in that half hour ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I can't remember,
Mr. ScHERER. You can't remember? You can't remember when
the FBI calls on you and asks you about
Mr. CoRBiN. They were asking me about communism in the labor
movement, I can't remember the specific questions, I just honestly
can't,
Mr. ScHERER. Did they ask you some of the same questions we asked
you here today ?
Mr. CoRBiN, I know they asked me if I was a member of the Com-
munist Party, and I answered no. And I remember they asked me
what I was doing for a living and I told them at that time I was the
national chief of the staff of the Marines, that I was a business man-
ager of the national magazine, and he asked for several copies, and I
submitted several copies of the magazine.
Mr. ScHERER. Wliat year was this?
Mr. CoRBiN. I can't remember offhand, but I would say that would
be 1952 or 1953, because I was chief of staff, I believe, in 1950 and 1951,
It would have to be after that, sir,
Mr, ScHERER. That is the only time the FBI talked to you, is it,
about your membership in the party ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, I occasionally, on several occasions, talked to the
FBI.
Mr. ScHERER. You voluntarily talked to them, or did they come and
see you ?
Mr. CoRBiN. It was voluntary. I usually dropped in about four or
five times in Madison or various times.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1445
Mr. ScHERER. You mean you would report to them other persons'
membership in the Communist Party?
Mr. CoRBiN. No. Specifically, it was in 1959 that I became chair-
man of the Citizens for Kennedy in ,Ianesville, and there was a lot of
anti-Catholic literature mailed to my house and people would call up
every hour on the hour all night long and say "What are you doing?
You are bringing a Catholic in."
And when this literature started coming in, I took some of it over,
one or two pamphlets, to the FBI in Madison.
Mr. ScHERER. And it came into there in volumes?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, no. Just one letter, "You S.O.B.," or something
like that, some vile words, all kinds of just a lot of poison.
Mr. SciiERER, Were these letters addressed to you ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Addressed to me as chairman of the Citizens committee
trying to get me to give it up.
Mr. Bruce. Does the FBI have those letters now? Did you turn
them over to them ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I turned them over to the FBI and related that they had
thrown a rock through my window and had phoned me every hour on
the hour during the night.
Mr. Scherer. But it was only on this one occasion, as I understand
it from your testimony, that they talked to you about your membership
in the Communist Party ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, if I recall correctly — the FBI probably would have
the records. I recall talking to the FBI agents on several occasions
voluntarily, willing to see them.
Mr. Scherer. About your own membership in the party ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I never was a member of the Communist Party, sir.
Mr. Scherer. No. You just told us, a few minutes ago, that on one
occasion they called on you and talked to you about a half hour con-
cerning your Communist Party connections and you told them you
weren't a member of the party.
Mr. CoRBiN. They asked me if I had been a member of the Commu-
nist Party, and I said, "No.""
Mr. Scherer. My question is. Did they talk to you on any other
occasion about your possible membership in the Communist Party
other than that one time ? That was a time you were a commandant
in the Marine Corps when you said they talked to you ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir.
Mr. Scherer. The only time ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I was not commandant of the Marine Corps at the time
I talked to them. When I talked to them, I presented them the maga-
zine that I was myself manager of and, as national chief of staff, I
wrote some articles and that had to be, because I recall vividly giving
them this magazine and that must have been, it had to be, after I
was chief of staff, and I was no longer a commandant because I worked
my way up in the chairs.
Mr. Scherer. Was that the only time they talked to you about your
possible connections with the Communist Party ?
I still haven't gotten an answer to that question.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Corbin. I visited the FBI office at one time in Madison, I recall.
Mr. Scherer. Was that voluntary, or at their request ?
1446 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. CoRBiN. Always voluntary.
Mr. SciiERER. At this time you visited the office in Madison, did
they talk to you at that time about possible Communist connections,
or was it conversations about something else ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I honestly believe that they did not. I might be wrong,
but my impression is they did not. They might have once more, but
I doubt it. I am not sure. I can't remember. I have seen them
several times, but I can't remember.
Mr. ScHERER. You can't tell us now anything, other than you have
already told us, about what the FBI asked you in connection with pos-
sible Communist Party activities on your part ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No. Specifically, right now I can't ; no. If you have
it, you may refresh my memory, but I can't remember it.
Mr. ScHERER. Did they talk to you about your connections with the
Communist Party in Milwaukee ?
Mr. CoRBiN. They never said I was connected with the Communist
Pary in Milwaukee. I never was connected with the Communist
Party in Milwaukee. I worked as a labor organizer, trying to get the
garbage workers more wages for their working conditions.
Mr. ScHERER. All right. Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. You have told us, Mr. Corbin, about the one occa-
sion when the Bureau, in talking to you, made an inquiry regarding
Mr. Giacomo. Did that happen more than one time or not?
Mr. CoRBiN. I believe they only asked me one time, to the best of
my knowledge.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, Mr. Giacomo further testified in which he
states that :
* * * he [meaning yon] doesn't want me to ever forget that possibly he was
in some sort of spying capacity for somebody. So he said [meaning you], "The
FBI was over to my house again on you."
I said, "Paul, the pieces do not fit."
He says, "They want that piece to fit in there and they are after your tail."
Mr. CoRBiN. I can't recall ever making that statement.
Mr. Tavenner (continuing) :
I said, "They have not made it fit yet, so they have not made it fit." I asked
him what they could add now, and he said he told them to leave me alone and
to go somewhere else and try to find out who that piece is.
Mr. Corbin. I did not make that statement to Mr. Giacomo.
Mr. Tavenner (continuing) :
Question. That happened about 2 years ago?
Answer. Two or 3 years ago.
Question. In 1950?
Answer. Around about there to the best of my recollection.
Mr. Corbin. The answer is "No" to that, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. All right.
Mr. Corbin. Unless he might have brought up the first conversation
from the first time that I mentioned it to him, but I had never told
him that the FBI had seen me again on him.
Mr. Tavenner. I would like to read some more of Mr. Giacomo's
testimony regarding you :
Question. Did he [meaning Mr. Corbin] at any time indicate to you or say to
you that he had been to a Communist Party meeting?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL ,CORBIN 1447
Answer. Yes ; the same as, I say, he would blurt out before this group of people,
"I am going to see Walter Harnischfeger" or, "I "have a meeting with Senator
Joe McCarthy."
Question. Tell us the circumstances under which he mentioned this to you.
Answer. On two occasions. Why he would say it to me — and he probably said
this to other people, although I don't know whether he would or not — why he
would say it to me ; they didn't, the Hirsches didn't, the Fred Blairs didn't, the
Eisenschers — who were known Communists — didn't say to me ever that they
were having a meeting or anything like that ; but Paul Corbin would say, "I got
to rush. I am going to a high-level meeting of the Communist Party." Then
off he would go.
Did you make a statement to Mr. Giacomo that you were in a rush
and were going to a high-level Communist Party meeting ?
Let me read a little more to you. It may refresh your memory :
Question. You said he said that to you on two different occasions?
Answer. Once he was going to one and once he was coming back from one.
Mr. CoRBiN. My answer to that is that I would not be able — I would
not be in a position to say that to him because I was never at such meet-
ings. So the answer is "No"' to that. However, about the Joe Mc-
Carthy and Harnischfeger part, that is years after the labor move-
ment. That came years after the labor movement, but I never said
that to him.
Mr. JoHANSEN. What came years after the labor movement?
Mr. Corbin. Well, when I was active in the Marines — are you re-
ferring to the part about McCarthy and Mr. Harnischfeger?
Mr. JoHANSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. CoRBiN. I was active in the Marines and I was acquainted with
Senator McCarthy and, when he would come to Milwaukee, I would
go to visit him. And as far as Walter Harnischfeger is concerned, I
can't ever recall saying that to him. I have never met Mr. Harnisch-
feger and would have no occasion to meet him, so I would never have
made that statement to him about meeting Mr. Walter Harnischfeger,
although I might have said to him — that I can't recall and I can't see
any point in telling him — about seeing Senator McCarthy. They used
to needle me about that.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you know that Mr. Giacomo was a member of
the Office of Labor Production of the War Production Board? Did
you know him then ?
Mr. Corbin. What year was that, sir ?
Mr. SciiERER. I don't know. Did you know that he was a member
of the War Production Board ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I can't remember. I was in the service during the war
and I imagine that committee operated during the war and I was in
the Marines at the time.
Mr. ScHERER. Did he ever tell you about that ?
Mr. CoRBiN. He might have. I can't remember.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Corbin, this further question was asked the
witness, Mr. Giacomo :
During the course of your testimony, you made a statement which was not
responsive to a specitic question in which you made reference to requests made
by Paul Corbin of you to make contributions to the Communist Party. Explain
that, please.
Answer. Well, he would just ask me pointblank, "Wouldn't you like to make
a contribution to the party?" And he would tell me of some — I don't remember
now for what purpose, but some sort of activity that was going on, and I would
always tell him. "Xo," I could not afford it, and so on and so forth. I could not
recall just now what purpose it was for.
1448 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. CoRBiN. That is false, sir. That statement is false.
The Chairman. We will recess for 20 minutes.
(Brief recess.)
(The committee reconvened at 5 :45 p.m., with Representatives Wal-
ter, Doyle, Scherer, Johansen, Bruce, and Schadeberg present.)
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Corbin, I have asked you about soliciting con-
tributions for the Communist Party. I now want to ask you, Have you
made any contributions to the Communist Party ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. How did it occur, Mr. Corbin, that the two wit-
nesses selected by you to testify in your divorce case were members of
the Communist Party ?
(At this point Mr. Tuck returned to the hearing room.)
Mr. Corbin. Sir, at the time I got my divorce, I was in the Marine
Corps stationed in San Diego. I got a 10-day leave from my com-
manding officer for the purpose of going back to Chicago and getting
a divorce and, if I was successful, getting married. I had 10 days.
During the period of the war, which was 1944, in February, you had
to take a Northwestern, I believe it was, which was the Challenger,
Vv'hich took you 3 days and 2 nights, or 3 nights and 2 days to get to
Chicago, plus a day to get from San Diego to Los Angeles, almost 7
days of transportation to and from San Diego to Chicago. I arrived
in Chicago and I was informed that I had to get prepared for mar-
riage by taking health certificates, which was another day, which
left me 2 days. We also intended to go to visit my wife's folks in
fTanesville, which was another day. I believe it was the morning or
the night before — I can't remember exactly — I was informed that I
had to get two witnesses who knew me. Well, I said "All the people
T know are in the service." He said "You are not going to get a
divorce until you find two people that know you."
The only place I knew where to go was the labor hall. I went
down to the old union office, and there were two fellows sitting there,
one that had an office for a union that I had seen on various occa-
sions and another person who was also a union official. One said,
"Corbin, what are you doing back ?" I said, "I am here on leave for a
divorce and I am looking for two witnesses. Will you boys testify
that you know me ?"
"Yes, we will,"
I went down to the courtroom and 17 years later I pick up the
Milwaukee Journal and I find that those two boys that I picked up in
the labor office to be my witnesses turned out to be Communists.
Mr, Tavenner. Did you know they were Communists?
Mr. Corbin. Absolutely not. That is the last thing I would have
as a witness at my wedding or divorce.
Mr. Scherer. Did these two witnesses know your wife whom you
were divorcing?
Mr. Corbin. The wife I was divorcing?
Mr, Scherer. Yes.
Mr. Corbin. No, sir. They never saw her in their life,
Mr, Johansen. Were these witnesses for the divorce or for the
weddinof ?
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1449
Mr. CoRBiN. To identify me. I had to have two witnesses. I went
to the union hall and 1 was in Marine uniform and had a day to go
and that was the story.
Mr. ScHERER. Those two witnesses were to testify as to your grounds
for divorce, were they not ?
Mr. CoRiiiN. No, sir. All they testified to was whether they knew
me.
Mr. ScHERER. I quit.
Mr. Doyle. Did they testify that they knew you as a resident?
Was that it ?
Mr. CoRBiN. They knew me, that I lived in Chicago.
Mr. SciiERER. They did not know anything about your marital
difficulties, did they ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir. Under normal circumstances it would have
been a different divorce and different wedding. It was time of war.
I had 10 days leave, 7 shot from the start, and I had to use one to get
my health certificate. I had to go to Janesville and I was tickled to
death to find anybody that would be my witnesses. Seventeen years
later they turn out to be Communists.
Mr. Tuck. They were Communists at the time, were they not?
Mr. CoRBiN. I didn't know\ I don't know they were Communists
now except I read it in the paper.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Corbin, was a Communist Party registration
card bearing No. 62908 for the year 1946 issued in your name?
Mr. Corbin. What was that again ?
Mr. Tavenner. Will you read it ?
(The pending question was read.)
Mr. CoRBiN. I don't follow you. You mean did I join the Com-
munist Party in 1948 ? Absolutely not.
Mr. Tavenner. The question was whether or not the card was issued
in your name.
Mr. CoRBiN. How do I know? I w^asn't a Communist.
Mr. Tavenner. My question is, Was it done?
Mr. CoRBiN. I never had one. I never was a Conrununist.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it done to your knowledge ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Absolutely not. I may add, gentlemen, that when
this question of communism came up, I took a lie detector test in the
city of Washington on the question of my affiliations, and even though
there was a humiliating feeling to get into the machine and be strapped,
when it was all through he said, "Don't worry, Paul. You are as
clean as a whistle."
Mr. Tavenner. IVlio told you that ?
Mr. Corbin. The man that took the test.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlio was that?
Mr. CoRBiN. Mr. Leon.
Mr. Tavenner. What Leon ? What is the rest of his name ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I can't i-emember. I was given an address where to go.
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Corbin. John Leon, I believe his name was.
Mr. TA\Ti:NNER. Wliat address ?
Mr. CoRBiN. It was in the vicinity of Dupont Plaza.
Mr. ScHERER. Did he ask you whether you had a Communist Party
card by the number Mr. Tavenner just mentioned ?
1450 TESTIMONY BY AXD CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. CoRBix. No, sir.
Mr. ScuERKR. I mean the man that ffave yon the lie detector test.
Mr. CoRBiN. The man that gave me the lie detector test asked me if
I was a member of the Commnnist Party, had ever been a member of
the Commnnist Party, and a series of questions ; and my answer was
"no" to all of them: and, when it came through, he said, "I have
never seen one as clean as that, Mr. Corbin."
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. CoRBix. May I have the right reserved to submit that lie de-
tector test to the committee ?
Mr. Tavexner. Mr. Chairman, I think if he has anythin^: to sub-
mit we should accept it.
The Chairman. What does it show ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Well, sir, the gentleman who took it
The Chairman. AMio gave it to you and what were the results?
Mr. Corbin. I am not an expert reading it, sir, but the gentleman
told me — and Mr. Bailey is national chairman and he ascertained the
facts and said — "You are all right, Paul. You are clean." He said,
"You are all right. I am proud of you."
Mr. ScHERER. "Wlio paid for the test ?
Mr. CoRBiN. That I don't know.
Mr. ScHERER. AMio sent you to him ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Bailey. Incidentally
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Tavenner. All right, sir. Were you issued a Communist Party
transfer card
Mr. Corbin. No, sir.
Mr. Ta\-enner. Wait a minute. On February 27, 1948, bearing No.
21894, signed by E. Eisenscher ?
Mr. Corbin. No, sir.
Mr. TA^^;NNER. Membership secretary of the Communist Party in
Wisconsin, transferring you to San Francisco?
Mr. Corbin. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you directed to report in California to the
Communist Party headquarters at 942 Market Street, San Francisco?
Mr. Corbin. No, sir.
Mr. Ta\T!:nner. Did you go to California?
Mr. Corbin. I went to California on several occasions. I went to a
Marine Corps League convention, in some of the articles you have
there.
The Chairman. "VAHiere ?
Mr. Corbin. A Marine Corps League convention in Los Angeles, and
then I went to visit my sister, who lived in Vallejo at the same time.
Then I went to the Democratic National Convention and I believe, at
one time, I went to California with the Marine Corps T^eague for a trip.
I believe I haven't been in California more than three or four times
since the war, when I was discharged; and, when I did go, it was al-
ways on Marine Corps or veterans activities or the Democratic Party.
That is the only time I went and the only time I have been in San
Francisco was when I visited my sister in Vallejo, went over to Oak-
land to go to Los Angeles. I believe I stopped there and had dinner
at Chinatown and kept going. That is the only time I have been to
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1451
San Francisco, with the exception of 1961 when I went to the conven-
tion. I went up there for a day to see San Francisco in Jnly of 1961.
Mr. Chairman, is it possible for me to see that Communist Party
membei-ship card that is supposed to be mine?
The Chairman. I don't know where it is. I know nothing about it.
It is the first I have heard about it.
Mr. CoRBiN. I woukl like to see it.
Mr. Bruce. I think it Avas just asked whether you could identify
the number.
Mr. CoRBiN. They must have a card to have a number on it. I would
like to see it, whose handwriting it is in.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you go to California on March 27, 194:8?
Mr. CoRBiN. March 27, 1948 ? No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you go any time during the month of March
or early in April 1948 ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. When was the last time you went back to Canada?
Mr. CoRBiN. The last time ?
IVIr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. CoRBiN. Two Aveeks ago.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you go to Canada in 1947 or 1948?
Mr. CoRBiN. I went to Canada when I came out of the service to see
my family.
Mr. Tavenner. That would have been in 1945 or 1946.
Mr. CoRBiN. I can't remember. No, I was still in service until the
last day of December. It might have been 1946 or 1947. I can't re-
member, but I did go to see my brother, who had just gotten out of the
service himself.
Mr. Taaenner. When was the next occasion you Avent to Canada ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I went to Canada on a vacation. I can't recall, but I
took a trip by car through the Lake of the Woods. In fact I went
with Mr. and Mrs. Kennedy to Canada on a trip. I can't remember
the exact year, but it was after I left the labor movement. It must
have been during the period of our jjartnership.
Mr. Tavenner. Where was your brother living at the time that you
went to Canada, Mr. Corbin I
Mr. CoRBiN. My brother ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. CoRHiN. My brother resided at Kingston Crescent, Saint Vital,
which is a suburb of Winnipeg.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he later move to the United States ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No; he is still there.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have another brother in California?
Mr. Corbin. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you had a brother living in California within
the past 10 or 12 years ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, sir.
Mr. Bruce. You have a sister living there ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes.
Mr. Bruce. xVll right.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. May I see those cards that have been brought up? 1
would be interested in knowing: about a card if there is one.
1452 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. Tavenner. We do not have it.
The Chairman. Are there any further questions?
Mr. Doyle. No questions.
The Chairman. Governor ?
Mr. Tuck. I have no questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. How long have you known Philleo Nash ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Philleo Nash? I knew Philleo Nash — I believe the
first time was when I went to the Democratic convention, he was run-
ing for State chairman, and I voted for the other guy. It was — I
can't remember — 1955, I believe, was the year, sir, or 1954.
Mr. Scherer. He is from Canada, is he not ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I wasn't aware of that.
Mr. Scherer. You did not know him when both of you were resi-
dents of Canada ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No. The first time I met him was at the convention
in Green Bay. He came in from Washington, I believe, and he ran
for State chairman and he got elected although I didn't vote for
him.
Mr. Scherer. You have known him since 1955, then ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Well, I would say I know him from that convention,
is the first time I met him. It might have been 1954, 1953, 1955. That
is the first time I met him.
Mr. Scherer. You have seen him off and on during those intervening
years, have you not ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes. He was State Chairman of the Democratic Party,
and I knew him, saw him on numerous and various occasions, fre-
quently, I would say, compared to some of the others.
Mr. Scherer. Did you have anything to do, either directly or indi-
rectly, with his recommendation for appointment to a Federal position
in this Administration ?
Mr. CoRBiN. My dear sir, with all due respect to the ability of Mr.
Philleo Nash, I am a strong partisan of Senator Kennedy and Mr.
Nash in Wisconsin was leading the stump for Humphrey. I would
not recommend Mr. Philleo Nash to any position, based on my par-
tisanship, nor on his ability.
Mr. Scherer. I just asKed, you didn't have anything to do, either
directly or indirectly ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Absolutely. And if I was asked, my answer would
say, "Don't give him the job."
Mr. Scherer. He was recommended.
Mr. CoRBiN. That I don't know, sir. He got the job. Somebody
must have put him in there. I didn't, although I believe he is a
capable man.
Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions.
Mr. Johansen. I have just one or two questions.
Has there ever been any occasion on which an effort was made, or
an attempt was made, to secure a security clearance for you?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
Mr. Corbin. I really wouldn't know, sir, unless it was done in the
service.
Mr. Johansen. Do you have any knowledge of any, after your war
service?
(Witness conferred with counsel.)
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1453
Mr. CoRBiN. I am not certain. There was somethin*]: in the news-
paper that somebody had taken an FBI test. I read it in the Mil-
waukee Journal. I didn't know to my knowledge, sir, but I had read
in the Milwaukee Journai
(Witness conferred with counseL)
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes, there was.
Mr. JoHANSEN. You know or can you ehiborate as to the circum-
stances or the occasion ?
Mr. CoRBiN. Yes. I was up. Yes, I do. It was in January or
February of 1961. I think it was prior to going to work for tlie
committee, Democratic National Committee, that a fellow with the
FBI approached me in my office and, well, he called me, as a matter of
fact, and wanted to see me; and I said I was going out to lunch, going
to the Mayflower, and he said, ''I would like to ask you some ques-
tions," and I said, "Will you join me in lunch f And he said he
would. He wouldn't eat anything. I guess he — he had a coke, or
something, and he said he was running an FBI check, a security check
on me, and I guess he asked me where I was born and some questions.
That was back in 1961, sometime in 1961. I can't remember the exact
dates.
Mr. ScHERER. The fact is, you didn't get a clearance ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I am not aware of that, sir.
Mr. JoHANSEN. Was this check presumably in connection with your
position with the committee or was it in relationship to an application
for some other position ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I had applied for no position in the Federal Govern-
ment. I liked organizing and getting things stirred up.
Mr. JoiiANSEN. Then it was presumably in connection with your
committee assignment ?
Mr. CoRBiN. I presume. I can't say that, but I presume that. I
am not in the position to say one way or another.
Mr. JoHANSEN. My recollection is that you testified earlier that you
had been, in the past, questioned by the FBI regarding alleged Com-
munist affiliations or activities, is that correct I
Mr. CoRBiN. I have been questioned. They went to one of my neigh-
bors. My neighbors told me the FBI was there. So I called the FBI
agent in Madison.
Mr. JoHANSEN. This was when you voluntarily contacted them?
Mr. CoRBiN. Right.
Mr. JoiiANSEN. Now, in this check that was made, so-called security
check
Mr. CoRBiN. In 1960. I didn't volunteer. They came to me.
Mr. JoHANSEN. They came to you, yes. Were any questions asked
you in connection with that check as to allegations of Communist
Party activities or affiliations ?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, he asked me, sir, if I was — I can't remember the
exact words — was I ever a member of the Communist Party or Fascist
party, which advocated the overthrow of the Government, and I said
"No."
Mr. JoHANSEN. But there was no reference in this later interview,
which the FBI souglit with you, to the previous interviews which
you had had with the FBI on your initiation ?
1454 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
Mr. CoRBix. No, but I had told them that I had, I believe I told
them I had talked to the FBI. I am pretty sure of that.
Mr. JoHANSEN. And indicated the subject matter?
Mr. CoRBiN. No, I can't recall. I was busy having lunch but I
can't honestly remember, sir.
Mr. JoHANSEN. That is all at the moment.
Mr. Bruce. No, I have no questions.
The Chairman. Well, I guess that is everything, is it not, Mr.
Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. CoRBiN. Mr. Chairman, may I have a copy of the transcript of
the testimony ?
The Chairman. Certainly, after it is completed.
Mr. Corbin. Mr. Chairman, I would like to point out that in the
press — I don't know if it has been called to your attention — there have
been allegations about communism of Mr, Corbin by an ex-FBI agent,
and subsequently pointed out that it was a different Paul Corbin.
That was a terrible shock to my wife's folks in AVisconsin when a big
story appeared in the Milwaukee Journal^ my home town, that an
ex-FBI agent identified me as a Communist speaker and a Communist
leader, and about 3 weeks later there appeared a story in the Milwaukee
Jouynial that the man had made a mistake, he got me mixed up with
somebody else and I wasn't even there. ^ So I just would like to point
out, Mr. Chairman, that
The Chairman. We know about that, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Ta\-enner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scherer. We did not ask him about it.
Mr. Tavenner. We did not call the person as a witness, and I have
not asked any question regarding it.
Mr. Corbin. It was in every paper in the country, Mr, Tavenner,
and this man's name was involved in it, too, Mr. Wetterman.
The Chairman. I guess we may adjourn now. Have we anything
set for tomorrow ?
Mr. Tavenner. No, sir.
The Chairman. The committee is adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 6 :05 p.m. Monday, July 2, 1962, the committee
was recessed subject to call of the Chair. Committee members present
at time of recess: Representatives Walter, Doyle, Tuck, Scherer.
Johansen, Bruce, and Schadeberg.)
^ Fact : A former FBI undercover informant in the Communist Party furnished a
Milwaukee Journal reporter, Edward S. Kerstein, an affidavit statinp only that Paul
Corbin had been a spealcer at a Communist-front meeting he had attended in the middle
or late forties. The informant subsequently realized that the speaker he had in mind was
not Corbin, but a man with a similar sounding last name — Robert A. Herbin — ^who was
about Corbin's age and resembled him in physical appearance. He then retracted his
affidavit. There is no evidence of any other Paul Corbin being a Communist leader and
speaker at Communist-front affairs.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
APPENDIX
During Mr. Corbin's testimony (p. 1421), he submitted tiie
following documents which were ordered to be made a part of the
record by tJie chairman of the committee:
Article, "Marine Corps League May Move Here," Houston Chronicle, Mar. 22,
1952.
Article, "Marine Leaguers Favor A-Bomb War," Los Angeles Times, Sept. 10,
1952.
Article, "Marine chief sees atom as solution," a Los Angeles daily, Sept. 10, 1952.
Picture, Paul Corbin, Senator McCarthy, William Golz, Milwaukee Journal, June
25, 1951.
Telegram, McCarthy to Corbin, accepting invitation to State convention of
Marines on June 24, 1951.
Letter, dated June 7, 1951, from Senator McCarthy to Mr. Corbin in regard to
said convention.
Article, "Corbin Heads State Marines," Janesville Gazette, June 19, 1950.
Article, "Now Hear This!" edited by Paul Corbin, The Quarterdeck, October 1955,
published by The Quarterdeck Commission of The Navy Club of the U.S.A.
The above documents are reproduced on the pages following.
1455
1456 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
[Houston Chronicle, Mar. 22,1952]
Marine Corps
League May
Move Here
The national staff of th* Ma-
rine Corps League here Satur-
day bega nstudying the possi-
b'lity of nnoving the national
headquarters to Houston.
Paul Corbin, chief of staff of
the le&gue. said a decision on the
selection of the sile will be made
eithei late today or Sunday
morning.
The Jamesville, Wis., marine
official said the discussions will
also cover ways and means of
blasting Red sanctuaries ir Korea
and China, high marine casual-
ties in the Korean War, and the
possibility of getting the marine
commandant appointed to the
Joint Chiefs of Staff.
Corbin charged that high level
decisions on use of marines in
amphibious warfare are made by
service chiefs not versed in that
phase of war.
he 20 members of the staff are
led by national league command-
ant, John R. O'Brien of Passaic,
N.J.
If Houston is selected as the
site, the national headquarters
will be at the Marine Corps Me-
mi'-ial Club at 3515 Montrose.
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
1457
[Los Angeles Times, Sept. 10, 1952]
Marine Leaguers
Favor A-Bomb War
Resolution Urges Attack to Speed
Peace; Break With Soviet SougKt
Resolutions calling for atomic bomb attacks across the
Yalu River and immediate severance of diplomatic relations
with the Soviet Union will be proposed to delegates to the
29th amiual national convention of the Marine Corps League.
Paul Corbin, National Chief of
Staff of the league, declared aft-
er the first business sessions got
under way yesterday that
"A-bombs across the Yalu Riv-
er" is the only answer to get-
ting out of Korea. Corbin, who
is handling <xinv-ention resohi-
tions, predicted almost unani-
mous endorsement of such a
policy.
John R. O'Brien of Fassaic,
N..I., National Commandant of
the league, disclosed that tbe
resolution favoring severance of
diplomatic relations with the So-
viet Union wUl be presented.
Other resolutioOT which will
come befqrt tlte delegates wiU*
demand the Immttdiate removal
of Secretary of State Acheron as
a "left-winger." AjCkUtionally,
the league will call for a nation-
wide plan designed to cope with
the future welfare of Americi^^
delinquent teen-agers.^
Memorial RJtet
O'Brien made his statements
shortly after delegatefi to the
convention attended solemn rae-
nwwiai rites for departed marines
at Forest Lawn Memorial-Park.
Before the Church of the Re-
cessional, upon a symbolic
gravel-that of a fallen marine
hero — O'Brien and Mrs. Isabella
Stump, national Auxiliary Pr^l*
den*, dnd Mrs. Llzette McCarde,
representing the Marine Gold
iStar Mothers, placed wreaths.
The Rev. Michael J. HaUy,
national Chaplain, delivered a
eulogy. He also asked the bene-
diction for those "who are set*
ting the example for America's
youth" on the firing line in Ko»
rea at the present time.
Opening Dedication
Mrs, Emily Shulti, of Rose-
me«d, meihorial chairman and
SoQthwest national vlce-presl«
dent of the auxiliary, made the
1458 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
opcninir memorial dedication*
with Allen Henderson, Califor-
nia StaU department command-
ant aarvinf as macter of c^re-
xnonktf.
Hrs. Marlljoi Rotbenberg sang
"The Star Spangled Banner" and
the stirring "My Buddy."
During the rendition of the lat-
ter Mrs. Lillian liend, of Oak-
land, clunc to MA. Alma Stein-
beck, al«#of Oakland, tearfully
renlembeAiig the husband -who
loit his life with the Marina
Corps during World War II,
It was a nrecise, briaf and
typically Manna lervice.
Salnta to Dfl«4
The ard Marine pivlsion Band
provide^ fitting music for the
colorful cerehiony. A colorguard
from the Burbank detachment
of the league dipped their Colors
as Commandant O'Brien saluted
the departed.
A firing squad of six riflemen,
based at Camp Pendleton, let
go three volleys over the grave
as Taps was founded by a
bugler,
A lecture by the Rev. Frank
Sopher, Cafifornia League chap-
lain, followed the ceremonies in
the Hall of the Crucifixion.
Chuck Wagon Dinner
Last night's convention festiv-
ities consisted of the annual Ma-
ririe -Corps chuck wagon dinner
and western dance. The chuck
wagon }s reminiscent of "feeds"
usually tossed by commanding
generals of the marines for their
men ajfter combat sieges in the
Paci^c during World War II.
Toda3r's sessions of the con-
venjtipn will be occupied pri-
marily by business dis«nissions
dealing with America's problems
in the hiternational picture.
No small alttntidn will be
given te the men of the 1st
Marina DiviaioA who are on the
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1459
[A Los Angeles daily, September 10, 1952]
Marine chief
sees atom as
solution
National chief of staff of the
Marine Corps League firmly be-
lieves that "A-bombs across the
Yalu River" is the only solution
to getting out of korea.
Pa.ul Corbin. who is handling
lesolutions for the 29th convention
of the league here, today predicted
that this Yalu policy would be
endorsed almost unanimously dur-
ing thj Marines' meeting.
The national commandant of the
league. John R. O'Brien of Pas-
saic, N. J., also said that a reso-
lution calling for severance of
diplomatic relations with the So-
viet Union will be presented to
the group.
Delegates will also hear resolu-
tions calling for the immediate
removal of Secretaty of State
Dean Acheson as a "left-winger."
and a nationwide plan tu cope
with the future welfare of Amer-
ica's teen-agors.
Tonight the Marines will break
ranks when their fun-making out-
fit, the Military Order of Devil
Dogs, meets in Patriotic Hall at
9:30 tonight.
Tomo.-row. Gen Lemuel C.
Shepherd Jr., USMO, commandant
of the Marine Corps, will arrive
to be guest of honor of the I^eague
at its banquet in the Biltmore
Bowl.
With him will be Maj. Gen.
William O. Brice, USMC. director
of aviation and assistant com-
mandant for air, and Brig. Gen.
Thomas A. Womham, USMC, of
headquarters in Washington.
1460 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
[Milwaukee Jottmal, June 25, 1951]
The Wisconsin Marine Corps league ended its thrcf day convcn-
tmn Sunday at Oshkosh. From left are Paul Corbin. .Innesvillp,
retiring pt^te rommandant; Senator McCarthy (Rep.. Wis/), the
pnnripal speaker ftt the closing dinner, and William Goiz, Osh-
kosh police chief. — A/den L. Men«»
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNENTG PAUL CORBIN
1461
^\J^
WESTERN
S^ MBOLS
|nL=r).Y Ltrttt
UNION
W. p. MARSHALL.
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(vvr=lnil Vieiorv '..r
Vl- I . iius T.iir bI - ■ ',u Vi.r '>iA& 1m «a >li>«T»nM tntTdAX le* ie7«~i'sl~A NDARD^i 1 M tai'T>nit^i~ni origin I'iiM uf receipt m ffTA^^AftO T1MJE ftt puuiluf'nMU^tMa
MA033 BA228 WM30 29 /"! 9 59
W'iSNDOO? GOVT PDaSN WASHINGTON DC 29 1036A«
sPAUL CORBIN=
JANESVILLE W I S=
HAPPY TO ACCEPT INVITATION TO BE WITH YOU AT STATE
CONVENTION OF MARINES SUNDAY JUNE 24«
JOE MCCARTHY USS=
\NV \/lI.L AT*
1462
TESTEVrONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
KENNETH MC KCUL>W. TFNN.. CHAIRMAN
CARL MAYDEN. ARIZ.
RICHARD B. RUSSELL. CA.
PAT MCCARRAN. NEV
JOSEPH C. OMAMONEV. WYO.
DENNIS CHAVEZ, N. MEX.
BURNET R. MAYBANK. S C.
ALLEN J. ELLENDFR, LA.
LISTER HILL, ALA.
HARLrY M. KILOOBE. W. VA.
JOHN L. MCCLtLLAN, ARK.
STYLES BRID'SCS. N. H.
HOMER FEROUSON, MICH.
KEMNETH 8. WHERRY. NCBR.
GUV CORDON. OREO.
LEVERETT BALTONSTALL. MASI
MILTON R. YOUNO. N. OAK.
WILLIAM r. KNOWLANO. CALIP.
EDWARD J. THYE. MINN.
ZALES N. ECTON, MONT.
JOSEPH R. MCCARTHY, WIS.
EVERARO H. SMITH. CLERK
CECIL H. TOLBEHT, ASST. CLERK
QlCmieb JSyicAcA JS>enctl9
COMMITTEE ON APPROPWATIONS
June 7, 19^1
Mr. Paul Cor bin
Commandant
De«partment of Wisconsin Marine
Corps League
775 S, Fremont Street
Janesvillgy Wiscpnsin
Dear
MB» ^wfMtfli;. \
This is to ackuowledge receipt of your
letter of May 31 giving further information re-
garding the Convention idiich is to be held at the
l^ulf Hotel in Oshkosh, Sunday, June 2\x»
I have filled in and signed the applica-
tion form nhich you enclosed with your letter and
I am returning that to you with a check for 13 •00.
The hat size is 7 3/0.
Thank you very much for the invitation
to address the members of your organization.
With kindest regaixis, I am
SincfTTiriy yours.
McC:det
Enclosures
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
1463
[Janesville Gazette, June 19, 1950]
Corbin Heads
State Marines
Three Other Jonetville
Men Honored With
State Officas
PAUL CORBIN
Paul Corbin, 775 S. Fremont
street, was elected commandant
of the U.S. Marine Corps League
of Wisconsin at the closing ses-
sion Sunday of its three-day con-
vention in Green Bay. Corbin,
who succeeds Lawrence Becker,
Green Bay, defeated Nick
Dodich, Waukesha, by a 2-1 ma-
jority in a hotly contested race
for the top oflSce.
Corbin is the first World War
II veteran to hold the comman-
dant's post. He entered state
department activities four years
ago as a district commandant,
later serving as junior and sen-
ior executive oflScers. Corbin is
employed in public relations
work for the Navy Club of the
U.S.A., covering Wisconsin and
six other midwest states. He
saw combat duty with the Sec-
ond marines in the Pacific and
occupation duty at Tsingtoa,
China.
Other Local Men Honored
Three others from Janesville
were honored with state offices
in the Marine Corps League —
Edmund P. Kraftchak, 210 Clark
street, appointed state adjutant
paymaster by Corbin ; Francis
Flynn, 1014 Laurel avenue, elect-
ed state chaplain; and Frank
Stritof, 1506 Maple avenue,
state police dog in the Military
Order of Devil Dogs.
Other oflScers named were :
I. D. Hale, Milwaukee, senior
vice commandant ; Robert Wal-
ters, Green Bay, junior vice com-
mandant; and Cyril A. Silver-
thorn, Jefferson, district com-
mandant.
McCarthy Motion Tabled
The convention Sunday de-
clined to go to bat for one of its
most prominent members — U.S.
Sen. Joseph McCarthy. Corbin
was one of the leaders in offer-
ing a resolution praising McCar-
thy for his attack on alleged
Communists in the state depart-
ment. However, the resolution
was tabled until the next staff
meeting set for Oct. 15.
The convention dealt with
many American issues, the for-
mation of an Americanism
Committee to combat subersive
activities within the state. A
strong resolution was passed
urging congress to pass meas-
ures which would give the com-
mandant of the U.S. Marine
Corps an equal representation on
the chiefs of staff of the navy,
army and air force.
1 464 TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN
VOL. 13, NO 3 OCTOBER, 1955
NOW HEAR THIS!
Edited By PAUL CORBIN
The recent summil conference held at Geneva between the heads of States of
the United States, United Kingdom, France and the U.S.S.R., might well in the
future be known as the "Dale Carnegie Conference". It was apparent to all news
commentators who were in attendance that the Soviet delegation had put on a new
front and was imbued with the obvious desire to win friends and influence people
around the world. That they were in part successful is indeed a tribute to their
planning, to their acuincn and to their skill.
Because of the fact that almost every nation in the world is tired of war and
dreads war, we, in common with other nations, are prone to accept the appearance
Of a thing as the thing itself. So in this case have we rushed headlong into the
friendly embrace of the Soviet bear without ever pausing for a second to look or
to think what might be result of that not so tender embrace.
Before we can appraise anything which was achieved at Geneva or which the
Russians may say in the future, we should stop and carefully consider whether or
not the basic goals of International Communism have really changed.
Some of our more naive commentators hoped that as a result of the meeting at
Geneva we would be able to gauge the intentions or honesty of purpose of the Rus-
sians. Even these wishtul thinkers, however, now admit somewhat ruefully that
this has not been the case.
Khrushchev, Bulganin and company talked much and pleasantly without say-
ing anything. They smiled, they proposed toasts and they were hospitable. However,
ttine fine words were not accompanied by any gesture other than liberating our
flien who were shot down in Korea and held in violation of the solemn agreements
entered into at Panmunjom. The Russian delegation still consistently says "nyet".
The only difference is that they now say it with a smile instead of a scowl.
AIMS LONG KNOWN TO MILITARY
It may be that the Russians at Geneva created the impression that for the
present they are not desirous of unleashing a war in Europe. However, this fact
has been known to our military and diplomatic intelligence source for a long time.
As a result of Geneva it is likely that our formal relations with the Soviet
Union will somewhat improve. However, we should ever be mindful of the fact
that the Soviet government is based on terror, slave labor and the worst kind of
opposition. Under the Communist system the individual possesses no rights. The
individual exists only to serve the State as its will is manifested by those who run
it. Neither should we ever forget that despite Geneva, the honeyed words and all
of the protestationji of good will, the Communists continue to operate the world's
greatest espionage and subversion ring which operates in every country of the civil-
ized world, including our own.
Speaking of the Geneva Conference, the Senate Minority Leader, Senator Wil-
liam Knowland of California, said, on July 27th, that despite the summit conference
at Geneva, "all the basic problems remain in Europe and Asia.
"Neither we nor the free world must lull ourselves into a little Miss Riding Hood
belief that because the wolf has put on Grandmother's cap and nightgown, his
teeth are any less sharp or his intentions any less menacing."
Senator Knowland then went on to point out that, "ten years after the end of
(Continued on Page 4)
TESTIMONY BY AND CONCERNING PAUL CORBIN 1465
]\OW HEAR THIS!
(Continued from Page 3)
World War II the Communist regime still holds large numbers of German and
Japanese prisoners, still keeps captive population in the satellite states and remains
'the fountain head of International Subversive Communism'."
"Communist China is in undisputed violation of the Korean Armistice and Is
building up its air and military strength beyond the permissive limits of that
agreement."
Senator Knowland reminded listeners that the same Communist China which
is in flagrant violation of the peace terms solemnly entered into at the time of the
ceasefire agreement in Korea now seeks to be admitted to the United Nations as
a "peace loving nation".
RUSSIAN COUNTER OFFER
When President Eisenhower, in spirit of good faith, trust and in a sincere
desire for peace, offered the mutual inspection proposal for military bases at
Geneva, the Russian Communists took the Fifth Amendment. Not to be outdone,
however, the Communi.sts offei-ed an all -European treaty which would, if adopted,
exclude the United Stales from the defense of Western Europe and would also
be an act of Western suicide. It is a proposal which could end in making the Soviet
government the political director of the whole of Eurasia and which would in-
evitably result in the complete isolation of the United States. It would give the
U.S.S.R. a veto over every European policy. Unfortunately, in the excitement of
Geneva this proposal for complete domination of the world bj' the Communif;ts
received only scant notice.
While it is possible to coexist with communism and while we can, within limita-
tion, trade with communist states and while we can, for purposes of expediency,
cooperate with Commimist Governments for limited objectives, still it is in^jpos-
sible really ever to be friends with a Communist regardless of the charms, talents
or the persuasiveness which he might possess. The communist objective was well
expressed by columnist Dorothy Thompson in her sjrndicated column appearing on
July 25 where she said "the driving (and dedicated) purpose of the commvmist
life is to convert you, or failing in that, to destroy you — even if you are that per-
son's own wife or husband."
Despite the new look put on by the communists at Geneva it is still approp-
riate to quote the Bible to the effect that, "The voice is Jacob's voice, but the
hands are the hands of Esau."
MUST REMEMBER LESSONS
As Americans we are prone to forget the lessons of the past. At the end of
both World Wars I and II we indulged in a saturnalia of disarmament, wh'ch
immobilized us in a military sense. When the communists thought that we had
reached a state close to military paralysis, they struck in Korea. We learned then
to our sorrow that in a world threatened continuously by communist aggression
we must maintain a strong fighting force in being. Now again we seem to be on a
new binge of good will. Once again we are closing our eyes to reality and indulg-
ing in wishful thinking that eace — its wonderful, because we want it to be that way.
Despite all the fine words uttered by the communists at Geneva they continue
to prepare for war. Their recent statement that they were reducing their armed
forces by 600,000 established a new all time high in duplicity. First of all, no one
but the Russians themselves know exactly how many personnel they have in their
various services. It may be that this number will be reduced somewhat but only
because such a reduction might be necessary in order to stave off famine, or In
order to continue essential military production in the factories. The Immutable
fact remains that the U.S.S.R. continues to build a strong Red Fleet. They are,
on the basis of fleet units and military potential, certainly the world's number two
Navy. It is expected that on the basis of manpower they are now thi world's number
one fleet. This fact should give us pause and lead us to consider whether it is in
the interest of our continued independence and of a sound national defense to allow
such a situation to continue. We of NCUSA realize that our motto KEEP THE
FLEET TO KEEP THE PEACE is more adaptable today than it ever was before
in the history of the United States. We must bend every effort to alert our com-
munities on the dangers of the inscrutable smile Russian version and continue our
battle for the maintainahce of a strong United States Navy as a bulwark for the
defense of freedom.
INDEX
Individuals
A Page
Acheson, Dean 1459
Adelnian, Meyer 1239, 1297. 1299, 1419
Anderson, Walter T 1239, 1279-1284 ( testimony ), 1314
B
Bailey, John 1247, 1373, 1374, 1450
Becker, Lawrence 1463
Bell, John 1370
Berry, James 1306, 1430
Blair, Fred Bassett 1240, 1267, 1271,1273, 1277, 1291, 1300, 1301, 1320-1323
(testimony), 1329, 1334, 1336, 1337, 1435, 1438, 1439, 1447
Blakeslee, Art 1369
Blanchoc, Henry 1369
Bobrowicz, Edmund V 1319
Born, Kenneth 1324,1327,1330-1337 (testimony)
Brennan, James 1248
Brice, William O 1459
Bridges, Harry Renton (also known as Harry Dorgan) 1288,
1292, 1295, 1393, 1414
Browder, Earl 1290
Buck, Tim 1385
O
Cappel, Walter 1318
Christoffel, Harold 1258, 1273, 1281, 1300, 1344, 1436-1438
Cohen. Hyman 1436, 1437
Cooper, Bus 1362, 1366
Corbin, Donnie 1379
Corbin, Freda (Mrs. Irvin Shankman) 1339
Corbin, Gertrude McGowan Cox (Mrs. Paul Corbin) 1239,
1264, 1265, 1269, 1271, 1274, 1275, 1298-1300, 1302-1306, 1329, 1337,
1348, 1350-1354, 1437, 1439.
Corbin, Irene ' 1339
Corbin, Mike. (See Kobrinsky, Mike.)
Corbin, Paul (born Paul Kobrinsky) 1237-1249,
12.51-1261, 1264, 1265, 1269-1277, 1280-1282, 1286-1289, 1291-1311.
1313-1317, 1320. 1322, 1324-1326. 1328, 1332-1342, 1344, 1348-1354,
1358-1364, 1,367, 1368, 1373-14.54 (testimony).
Corbin, Seena Powell. {See Powell, Seena.)
Corbin, Sidney. (See Kobrinsky, Sidney.)
Costello, Emil 1242,
1258. 1270. 1272-1274. 1283. 1292-1295. 129R-1300. 1306. 1.307. 1329.
134.3-1345 (testimony), 1392, 1393. 1401. 1403. 141.5. 1416, 1418-
1420, 1435, 1438.
Cox, Gertrude. (See Corbin, Gertrude.)
D
DeWitt, James (Jim) 1281
u INDEX
E Page
Edwards, Clarence S., Jr 1395
Eisenscher, Esther. (See Wickstrom, Esther.)
Eisenscher, Sigmund G 1240. 1268, 1447
Erickson 1387
Erlich, Katherine 1363
F
Fane, Charley 1393, 1395, 1412, 1416
Flory, Ishmael P 1323-1330 (testimony), 1333-1337
Flynn, Francis 1463
Flynn, Gerald T 1251. 1252, 1322
Forer, Joseph 1323, 1348
For.son 1397
Foster, William Z 12i)0
Freeman, Jack 1324, 1825,1333
G
Gantt, Harry 1297
Garland, Judy 1312
Giacomo, John Dominick_1236-1261 (testimony), 1313, 1315, 1439-1444, 1446. 1447
Gilmore, W. W 136.S, 1369
Goldblatt, Louis (also known as Lewis Miller) 1289. 1292. 1293. 1329. 1401,
1403, 1413-1415
Golz, AVilliam 1455, 1460
H
Hale, I. D 1463
Hally, Michael J 1457
Harnischfeger, Walter 1240, 1447
Hauke, Albion I31S
Heinritz, Mel J 1318
Henderson, Allen 1458
Herbin. Robert A 1454
Herman. Irving 1363
Hirsch, Alfred 1240, 1317-1319, 1418, 1419, 1436, 1437, 1447
Hooker, John Jr 1373
Humphrey, Hubert 1452
I
Isaacs. Ethel 1283
J
Johnson, R. A 1397
K
Keegan 1296
Keith, Mary 1268
Kennedy, John F 1248. 1374. 1452
Kennedy, Joseph Michael Corwan (party name Joseph Curran) 1273,
1285-1311 (testimony), 1314. 1330, 1344, 1359-1363, 1365, 1366,
1384, 1385, 1392-1396, 1399-1413. 1415-1418. 1423-1426, 1428. 1429,
1431-1434, 1437, 1438, 1445, 1451.
Kennedy, Marion (Mrs. Joseph C. Kennedy) 1.307, 1396, 1425, 1428, 1451
Kerstein, Edward S 1248, 1251, 1252, 1311, 1312-13020 (testimcmv). 14.54
Kingsley, Mike 1363-1365, 1367, 1408-1410
Knowland, William 1464, 1465
Kobrinsky, Mike (or Corbin) 1339
Kobrinsky, Nathan 1376
Kobrinsky, Paul. (Sec Corbin, Paul.)
Kobrinsky, Seena P. (See Powell. Seena.)
Kobrinsky, Sidney (Sidney Corbin) 1339, 1377, 1380, 1382. 1383, 1386, 1451
Kraftchak, Edmund P 1463
L
Lancaster, L. W 3391
Larsen (Whirlwind) 1.363
Leon, John 1449
Lyons, Jack 1272, 1273
INDEX iii
M Page
MacArthur, Douglas 1422
MacCallum, Marion 1306
Martin, Jack 1366, 1367
Martin (John Edward) 1370
Mashek, R. J 1296
Matheson 1426
May, George S 1369
McCarde, Lezette 14r)7
McCarthy, Joseph R 1240, 12;j4, 1257-1259, 1294, 1421, 1422, 1447, 1455
McCauley, Bill 1248
McMurray, Howard 1254
McRoberts 1426
Mead, Lillian 1458
Murray, Philip 1236, 1298
N
Nash, Philleo 1254, 1255, 1452
Nolan, Ann 1426, 1427
Nordstrand, Josephine ' 1319
Nowlan, Hiram M., Jr 1263
O
O'Brien, John R 1456-1459
Olds, Wilson 1272
Olen, Ann 1272
P
Pavlov, Ben I339, 1385
Pavlov, Elizabeth 1338
Pavlov, Philip 1339, 1385, 1386
Pavlov, Vitali G 1386
Poskonka, Joseph A 1271, 1314
Powell. Seena (formerly Mrs. Paul Corbin) 1324,
1332, 1337-1342 (testijnony), 1378, 1399, 1401
R
Raskin, Max 1318, 1319
Read, Clarence E 1395-1399. 1412
Rein, David 1320
Riffe, John 1283
Riley, Tom 1272
Robertson, J. R. (Bob) 1292,1300,1329,1404,1413-1415,1417
Rollins, Ray 1289, 1396
Rossen, Robert 1345
Rothenberg, Marilyn 14r)8
RuflBne, Isadora 1319
S
Scott, Harold 1263-1277 (testimony), 1321
Sell, Einar 1292, 1304, 1329. 1415
Sentinel, John (pen name) 1243,1245,1248,1256,1257,1442
Shankman, Irvin 1339
Shepherd, Lemuel C, Jr 1459
Shultz. Emily 1457
Silverthorn, Cyril A 1463
Smith, Philip 1281, 1436
Sopher, Frank 1458
Sorenson, John 1318
Speiser, Lawrence 1330
Steinbeck, Alma 1458
Stewart, George (also known as Smerkin) 1291,1330
Stritof, Frank 1463
T
Thorman, Carl 1292, 1304, 1329, 1359, 1401, 1414-1417
Torre, Marie 1312
iv INDEX
W Page
Wallace. Henry 127-"., 131!». 1420
Walters. Robert 1463
Wetterman. Xiel E 1248-1250. 1252. 1306, 1315, 1316, 1368
Wickstroiu, Esther (Mrs. Lester Wickstrom : nee Eisenscher) 1240,1268,
1270, 1271. 134,S-1354 ( testimony), 1447. 1450
Wilgus. Perry E 1302. 1303, 1354-1372 (testimony), 1403-1413
Willis, William R 1373
Wolfe, Her.sfhel 1395, 1412
Wornham, Thomas O 1459
Z
Zabloeki, Clement J 1249. 1250-12.52, 1322
Organizations
A
Allis-Chalmers Co 1243, 1435. 1436
America Firsters (also known as America First) 1293,1402
American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) 1330,1331
Automatic Pencil Sharpener Co 1344
Automobile. Aircraft, and Agricultural Implement Workers of America,
United (UAW) 1392, 1410-1412
B
Bell Fiber Products Corp 1355.1370
Black Hawk Publishing Co., Inc. (Cedar Falls, Iowa) 1286
Bookbinders Union, AFL 1393, 1411
C
Canadian Officers Training Corps 1385
Citizens for Kennedy 1376
Civil Rights Congress 1275
Committee To Aid America by Aiding the Allies 1293
Communications A.ssociation, American (ACA) 1300,1438
CommuuLst Party of the United States of America 1302,
1304. 1310. 1316. 1365, 1366, 1384, 1402, 1404, 1437, 1449, 1453, 1454
National Conventions and Conferences :
Sixteenth Convention, February 9-12, 1957 (New York City) 1352
States and Territories :
Illinois :
Rockford 1292. 1294, 1363, 1364, 1367. 1401, 1402, 1408. 1409. 1416
John Alden Branch 1.3.58. 1363
Wisconsin 1241, 1243, 1245, 1247, 1256, 1260, 1265-1267,
1269. 1281, 1300-1303, 1305, 1317, 1319. 1348-1353, 1366, 1435. 14.50
Beloit group— 1266,1268
Communist Political As.sociation (May 1944 to July 1945) 1275
Wisconsin State Committee 1276
Congress of Industrial Organizations (CIO) :
States :
Illinois :
Industrial Union Council (Rockford. 111.) 1287,
1297. 1392, 1393. 1403
Wisconsin 1.301, 1419, 1438
Industrial Union Council 1295, 1317-1319, 1349-1352
Veterans' Committee 1319, 1434, 1435
D
Dana Corp 1355-1357, 1369, 1370
Democratic Party (U.S.A.) :
Democratic National Committee 1247, 1253, 1374, 1453
E
Electrical, Radio, and Machine Workers of America, United (UE)___ 1281, 1436
Emil Costello and Associates 1344
INDEX V
^ Page
Farm Equipment and Metal Workers of America, United (CIO) 1280
Fur and Leather Workers Union of the Unitetl States and Canada, Inter-
national 1280
Furniture Manufacturers Association 1298
Furniture Workers of America, United (CIO) 1317
Local 707 (Rockford, 111.) 1286. 1287, 1289, 1292, 1306, 1360,
1362, 1403, 1406-1408, 1415, 1416, 1418
G
Glendale Die Casting (Detroit, Mich.) 1356
H
Harnischfeger Corp. (Milwaukee, Wis.) 1236
Hough Manufacturing Co. (Janesville, 111.) 1299
I
Illinois Cabinet 1392
International Expediters (Universal Enterprises) 1344
K
Kalamazoo Stove & Furnace Co. (Kalamazoo, Mich.) 1356
L
Litton Industries 1344
Longshoremen's and Warehousemen's Union, International (ILWU) 1288,
1289, 1292, 1293, 1300, 1317, 1361, 1392, 1393, 1402, 1403, 1407,
1413, 141.5, 1417.
M
Marine Corps League 1450, 1456, 1457, 1459
Wisconsin 1242,
1245, 1257-1259, 1295, 1296, 1298, 1301, 1302, 1309, 1310, 1421-
1424, 1426, 1432, 1433, 1450. 1460, 1462, 1463.
Marks Bros. Manufacturing Co. (Chicago, 111.) 1356, 1369
Mary's Bookshop (Milwaukee, Wis.) 1321
Micro Switch Corp. (See entry under Minneapolis-Honeywell Regulator
Co.)
Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 1271
Milwaukee City Workers Union 1299
Mine, Mill & Smelter Workers, International Union of 1325, 1333
Minneapolis-Honeywell Regulator Co.. Micro Switch Division (Freeport,
111.) 1302, 1356-1358, 1361, 1368, 1369, 1404, 1405, 1407
N
Navy Club of the United States of America 1296, 1297, 1428, 1463-1465
O
Oak Manufacturing Co. (Elkhorn, Wis.) 1264
P
Progressive Party .1 1275
Public Workers of America, United— 1238, 1243, 1247, 1299, 1317, 1318, 1419-1421
District 7 1317
R
Radiant Manufacturing Corp. (Morton Grove, 111.) 1356, 1357, 1368
Retail, Wholesale & Department Store Employees of America, United 1288,
1326, 1392, 1396
Rheem Manufacturing Co. (Chicago, 111.) 1302
S
Steelworkers of America, United 1279,
1280, 1292-1294, 1297, 1298, 1392, 1401, 1403, 1415, 1416, 1419, 1440
District 32 1236
Local 1114 1237
Stevenson, Jordan & Harrison Inc. (Chicago, 111.) 1356, 1357
vi INDEX
T
Teamsters, Chauffeurs, Warehousemen & Helpers of America, Interna- Page
tional Brotherhood of 1392
Telephone Workers, National Federation of 1300, 1438
U
U.S. Government :
Justice, Department of :
Federal Bureau of Investigation 1246,
12.J2, 12.5.5, 1.308-1310, 1444-1446, 14.53, 14.54
Immigration and Naturalization Service 1303,
1304, 1308-1310, 1383, 1387, 141.5
War Production Board :
Office of Labor Production 12.36,1447
University of Manitoba (Winnipeg, Canada) 1287,1288,1370.138.5
W
Warehouse & Distribution Workers Union (ILWU-CIO) :
Local 221, ILWU-CIO 1358, 13.59
Wisconsin Conference on Social Legislation. (See Wisconsin State Con-
ference on Social Legislation.)
Wisconsin State Conference on Social Legislation 1318, 1319
Wisconsin State CIO Veterans Committee. (-See entry under Congress of
Industrial Organizations, Wisconsin.)
W. T. Rav^leigh, Co. (Freeport, 111.) 1289,
1358, 1359, 1361, 1392, 1403, 1405-1407, 1410-1412
Y
Young Communist League 1275
Young Communist League, Canada 1287-1289,
1294, 1305, 1314, 1340, 1384, 1385, 1.395
Publications
A
Advocator 1424
C
CIO News 1237
Wisconsin 1298, 1299, 1317-1319, 1418, 1419
H
Houston Chronicle 1421, 1455, 14.56
J
Janesville Gazette 1374. 14.5.5, 1463
L
Los Angeles Times 1455, 1457, 1458
M
Manitoban 1.380
Midwest Guardian 1318. 1319
Milwaukee Journal (Milwaukee, Wis.) 1248,
12.52, 1257, 1283, 1312, 1421, 1455, 1460
Milwaukee Sentinel 1243, 1248, 1439
Q
Quarterdeck, The 1455, 1464,1465
T
"Thirty Years, 1922 to 1952, The Story of the Communist Movement in
Canada" (book) 1385
o
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