/ <: . l^'^ TESTIMONY
OF
LUDWIG C. A. K. MARTENS
TAKEN BEFORE
THE JOINT LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE OF THE
TATE OF NEW YORK INVESTIGATING
ITIOUS ACTIVITIES
CLAPTON R. Ll'SK, CHMH ^N
TESTIMONY OF LUDWIG G. A. K. MARTENS
MEETING OF JOINT LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE OF THE
STATE OF NEW YORK TO INVESTIGATE
SEDITIOUS ACTIVITIES
(CLAYTON R. LUSK, Chairman.)
City Hall, City of New York,
Saturday, Novemher 15, 1019.
Present :
Assemblyman Peter P. McElligott,
Assemblyman William W. Pellet,
Assemblyman Edmund B. Jenks.
Appearances:
Hon. Frederick R. Rich, Special Deputy Attorney-General,
Hon. Samuel A. Berger, Deputy Attorney-General,
Archibald E. Stevenson, Esq., Associate Counsel.
Acting Chairman, Assemblyman Peter P. McElligott.
The Committee was called to order at 11:25 a. m.
The Chairman. — The Committee will come to order. In the
absence of Senator Lusk, Chairman, I have been asked to preside
at this meeting.
The Committee issued a subpoena which was served upon
Ludwig C. A. K. Martens, who represents himself to be the repre-
sentative to the T'^nited States of America of the Russian Socialist
Federal Soviet Republic. The subpoena directed the attendance
of Mr. Martens to-day at this meeting and also required him to
bring with him certain documents, letters and other papers for
the inspection of this Committee in connection, with our investiga-
tion. Mr. Martens sent a letter to this Committee and it will
13]
be read. It is on the stationery of the Russian Socialist Federal
Soviet Republic.
Before proceeding with the reply of Mr. Martens, I think it
well to show that a subpoena was served upon Mr. Martens, and
his reply to the subpoena.
Mr. Berger. — Mr. Chairman, I call Mr. Wexler.
IsiDOR Wexler, having been duly sworn, testified as follows :
By Mr. Berger:
Q. Will you give us your full name ? A. Isidor Wexler.
Q. And you are a corporal in the State Constabulary of the
State of New York ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you are assigned to the Legislative Committee investi-
gating seditious activities in the State of New York ? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Did you on the 14th day of November, 1919, at 110 West
40th street, serve a subpoena upon Ludwig C. A. K. Martens ? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Of which is a copy (handing paper to witness) ? A. Yes,
sir. I served it at 11:25 a. m.
Q. And did you at the same time tender, give and leave with
Martens said subpcena and two dollars and a half in cash ? A.
Yes, sir; it was pinned right on the subpoena.
Q, Where was this subpoena served? A. At 110 West 40th
street, room 303.
Q. That is in this borough and city i A. Yes, this borough
and city.
Q. How did you know that the person you served with that
subpoena was the Ludwig C. A. K. Martens mentioned therein?
A. I have seen Martens in Madison Square Garden at one of the
meetings there.
Q. That was on June 20, 1919? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you heard him speak there ? A, Yes, sir ; he was intro-
duced as Mr. Martens, Ambassador from the Soviet Government
in Russia.
Q. And the person you served was the same person you saw
there as Martens, Ambassador from the Soviet Russian Govern-
ment ? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Berger. — I will read the .-ubpoeiia into the record:
" THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK
"To Ludwig C. A. K. Martens, 110 West 40t,h street,
'New York City:
"Greeting: We command you, That all business and
excuses being laid aside you be and appear in your own
proper person before the Committee of the Legislature of
the State of New York, appointed pursuant to the resolution
duly passed on the 26th day of March, 1919, at the Alder-
manic Chamber, in the City Hall, Borough of Manhattan,
City of New York, on the 5th day of November, 1919, at
10 :30 o'clock in the forenoon of that day, to testify and give
evidence in a certain investigation now pending of seditious
activities within the State of New York, and bring with you
the following books, papers and other documents now in your
possession and control, which the Committee deems relevant
and material to the investigation, the check books, bank books,
books of account, both of yourself, and of the Soviet Bureau,
located at 110 West 40th Street and elsewhere, and also all
documents, letters and other papers received by you and
your Bureau from Soviet Russia, as well as copies of letters,
documents and other papers sent by you and your Bureau to
Soviet Russia, all between January 1st, 1919 and this date,
also copies and records of all iso-called passports and cre-
dentials issued by you to the agents of yourself and your
Bureau, and for a failure to attend you will be deemed liable
to the ])enalties prescribed by law and hereof fail not at your
peril.
Witness, Hon. Clayton R. Lusk, Chairman of our said
Committee, at New York City, this 14th day of November
in the year of our Lord, one thousand nine hundred and
nineteen.
(Signed) Clayton R. Lusk,
Chairnuin.
(Signed) CliaiUs I). Newton,
Attorney-General, Counsel.
A true copy."
The Chairman. — Mr. Berger, does this require him to be here
at a certain hour?
6
Mr. Berger. — It requires him to be here in his own proper
person at 10:30 o'clock in the forenoon of today and requires
him in addition to bring his books and pa])crs. It is a personal
subpcrna and subpoena duces tecum.
The Chairman, — Was that communication of which you spoke
received bv the Committee today?
Mr. Berger. — Yes, received today.
Akchibalt) E. Stevenson^ having been duly sworn, testified
as follows:
By Mr. Berger:
Q. Mr. Stevenson, you are au attorney at law? A. I am.
Q. And Associate Counsel to the Joint Legislative Committee
Investigating Seditious Activities, are you not ? A. I am.
'Q. Do vou know cf your own knowledge whether or not
Senator Clayton R, Lusk, Chairman of this Committee, signed
a subpoena of which this iis copy ^ (Showing witness paper.) A.
He did, in my presence.
Q. In your presence ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you pursuant to the instructions given you by
Senator Lusk, Chairman of this Committee, cause that subpcena
to be served upon the person therein named, Ludwig C. A. K.
Martens ? A. I did. I received instructiouis from Senator Lusk
at the Murray Hill Hotel yesterday morning at 9:15, to take this
subpoena and cause it to be served upon the said Ludwig C. A. K.
Martens, wherever he was to be found.
Q. And it was duly served as you have heard in the testimony
this morning to the said Martens ? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Berger. — Mr. Chairman, a letter was received this morn-
ing purporting to come from L. Mai'tens, which, with permission,
I will read into the record,
Tjiis letter is on the letterhead of the Russian Socialist Federal
Soviet Republic, Bureau of the Representative in the LnitO']
States of America. Address: World's Tower Building, 110 West
Fortieth street, N'ew York, November 15, 1910. No. T)-10-9.
'* IFonorable Ct-aytox R, Lusk, Chairman, Commit fee of
the Legidature of Neiv York, New Yorh City.
" Sir. — I respectfully decline to comply with that ])art
of the subpoena served by your order upon me which requires
me to produce ' all (lociiuicnts, letters, and other papers/ re-
ceived by me and my liureau ' from Soviet Russia, as well
as copies of letters, documents and other papers ' sent by me
and my bureau ' to Soviet Russia ' also copies and records of
all so-called passports and credentials issued ' by me to ' the
agents ' of myself and my Bureau.'
'' 1. I take the position that your request for the produc-
tion of copies of my correspondence with ^ Soviet Russia '
which is evidently intended to designate the Russian Socialist
Federal Soviet Republic, which I have the honor to repre-
sent in the United States, is clearly in excess of the jurisdic-
tion of your Committee and without warrant in law. Under
the rules of international law the communications between
my government and myself are privileged and not subject
to the examination by the government of any other nation or
State.
" 2. If any inquiiT into my relations and correspondence
with Soviet Russia were warranted by law, the State Depart-
ment of the United States Government would be the sole
authority vested with jurisdiction in the matter.
" 3. Your Committee was created for a definite and limited
purpose, which cannot under any circumstances be held to
include matters of an international character.
" For the reasons stated I hereby decline to comply with
the above-quoted portions of your subpoena.
" Respectfully,
(Signed) " L. MARTEKS,
" Representative in the United States of America of the
Russian Socialist Federal Soviet Republic."
Mr, Stevenson. — Mr. Chairman, T think it might be wise to
have the corridors of the ])uilding searched.
The Chairman. — I was about to make the request that the
name of Mr. Martens be called to see whether he is present. Is
Mr. Martens present ?
Mr. Berger. — Mr. Wexler, will you call the naiuaie of Mr-
Martens in the Alderraanic Chamber, across the hall, and in all
the corridors. Call the name Ludwig C. A. K. Martens out laud.
Mr. Wexler. — Yes, sir.
8
Mr. Stevenson. — Mr. Chairman, I think it is well to have
noted on the record, although Mr. Martens has presented his cre-
dentials to the State Department at Washington, the Kussian
Socialist Federal Soviet Eepuhlic has up to this time not heen
recognized as a government, and it has been publicly stated by
the officials of the State Departniient that Mr. Martens had no
standing in this country as an envoy of the government ; and it
is, therefore, not clothed with any of the privileges or immunities
of a foreign representative.
The Chairman. — Yes, 1 think it is well to note that. I under-
stood from Mr. Martens, when he appeared before this Committee
some months ago that he had sent his credentials to Washington
to the Department of State, and that the only notice he received
in connection with the receipt of his credentials at W^ashington
was a newspaper despatch which he read the next day that his
papers had been received; but he had never received any official
recognition either of the receipt of his communication or any
further action.
(i\lr. Wexler stepped out from the room, and after a short
absence returned.)
Mr. Wexler.- — i^o, sir ; he is not in.
Mr. Berger. — Have you called his name out loud ?
Mr. Wexler. — Yes, sir ; three or four times.
The Chairman. — The Committee will note it is now twenty-two
minutes to twelve, on November 15, 1919, and the witness has
failed to appear.
Mr. Berger. — May I ask what the Committee desires done in
reference to this witness who has willfully, deliberately and with-
out reasonable cause failed to obey the subpoena duly issued under
the hand and seal of the Chairman of this Committee ?
The Chairman. — The Committee is empowered with certain
rights in connection with its work; rights under the legislative
law and rights under the penal law of the State of New York.
The witness can be punished as for a contempt ; and it is really
necessary that the Committee should take some action in this
regard, because it is a defiance of the powers of the Committee,
and also of the powers of the State of New York through its Legis-
9
lature. Tho State of New York is engaged in a very serious effort
just now to i^reserve the government of the State of N^ew York,
as well as the government of the United States of America, and
the inquiry will be helpful to protect the government.
The witness has refused to ])roduce these documents, a]id
1;( sides that, he has refused to attend personally. He has given
something in the nature of a statement for his failure to produce
these records, ]iui 1 do vhiid<, and I respectfully submit to the
members of the Committee, that his excuse is not sufficient to
satisfy the mend)ers of this Committee. If he were recognized
I»y the noveninienr of the United States as an ambassador of this
so-called Russian lJei)ublic, he would have certain rights and cer-
tain immunities and he coidd not be compelled to testify or pro-
duce his records ; but h(> has no standing of this kind, and he has
never been recognized by the government. It is really a subter-
fuge, as far as we are concerned, on his ])art, to offer an explana-
tion of that kind. I thiidv the Committee should take such action
as the law authorizes for a contcMupt of the action of this Com-
mittee, and the Chair, with the agreement of this Committee, will
authorize counsel for the Committee to proceed 'in accordance
therewith.
Mr. Berger. — We will, sir.
^Ir. Stevenson. — Do you think it would be wise to adopt a
resolution directing counsel to prepare such papers as might be
necessary ?
Mr. Berger. — I think the Chairman's statement, agreed in by
the other members of the Committee, is sufficient.
Assemblyman Pellet. — I make the motion that counsel l)e
directed to take such proceedings as will Ix^ necessary.
Assemblyman Jenks.— I second the motion.
(The motion was put to the Connuittee by the Chairman and
carried. )
The Chainnan. — Tlie Chair directs counsel to proceed in
accordance with the action.
Is there an\i:hing else for the Committee to-day ?
Mr. Stevenson. — I think not.
10
The Chairman. — I wished to state further that the Coniraittee
may take both civil ami criminal action in this regard, as pro-
vided hj law.
Mr. Berger. — In view of the fact that the contempt is a vio-
lation of both the Code of Civil Procedure, and the Code of Crim-
inal Procedure.
The Chairman. — We will now adjourn to meet on Monday
afternoon at 2 o'clock.
At 11 :45 A. M. the Committee took a recess to Monday, Novem-
ber 17, 1919, at 2 :00 p. m.
11
MEETING OF JOINT LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE OF THE
STATE OF NEW YORK TO INVESTIGATE
SEDITIOUS ACTIVITIES
Aldermanic Chamber, City Hall,
Xew YoifK, Saturday, Nov. 15, 1919, 2.:)0 p. m.
Before :
Assemblyman Peter P. MeElligott, Acting Chairman;
Assembl^Tnan Pellet,
Assembhinan Jenks.
Appearances:
Samuel A. Berger, Esq., Deputy Attorney-General, Associate
Counsel.
Archibald E. Stevenson, Esq.
In attendance:
Ludvvig C. A. K. Martens.
Acting Chairman MeElligott. — The Committee met this morn-
ing at 10:30 a. m. A subpoena had been issued for the appear-
ance of Mr. Martens, requiring him to appear, and calling for the
j)roduction of certain records by him.
^Ir. ^Martens failed to appear. Thereupon an application was
made to the Supreme Court for an attachment. The application
was granted, and the sheriff served the attachment, which was a
bail attachment in one thousand dollars. Mr. Martens is now
present lx?fore the Committee, having been brought there by
Deputy Sheriff Murray of the county of New York. The Com-
mittee took a recess until 2 o'clock on ^fonday. If Mr. Martens
is willing to promise the Committee that he will attend before
the Committee at that time, he can offer bail in the sum of one
thousand dollars.
^Ir. Martens came forward and stated that he would be present
on ^fonday at 2 o'clock, and a recess was accordingly fixed until
that time.
12
The Acting- Chairman.— :Mr. Martens, jou are required to be
here on Monday next at 2 o'clock, to produce with you the books,
papers, documents, records, and so forth, called for by the sub--
poena. Will you be here at that time with those papers ?
Mr. Martens. — Yes, I will.
Whereupon, at 3:15 o'clock p. m. the Committee took a recess
to Monday, :N^ovember 17, 1919, at 2 p. m.
13
MEETING OF JOINT LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE OF THE
STATE OF NEW YORK TO INVESTIGATE
SEDITIOUS ACTIVITIES
City Hall, Neav York,
Monday, November 17, 1919, 2 p. m.
Present :
Assemblyman McEUigott, Chairman;
Assemblyman Pellet,
Assemblyman Burr.
Appearances:
Mr. Samuel A. Berger, Deputy Attorney-General ;
Mr. Archibald E. Stevenson, Associate Counsel to the
Committee ;
Mr. Frederick E. Rich.
The Chairman. — The meeting will come to order.
Mr. Berger. — Mr. Martens.
LuDwiG C. A. K. Martens, called as a witness, being first
duly sworn, testified as follows:
Examined by Mr. Berger :
Q. What is your full name? A. Ludwig Christian Alexander
K. Martens.
Q. Whore do yon live. jMr. Martens? A. 572 Ocean avenue,
Brooklyn.
Q. And what is your oftice address, :\Ir Martens^ \ 110
West 40th Street.
^>. Aii.l your occii|.;,ti..n f A. I am ropresonrin- tho Russian
Socialist Soviet Bppul)Ii('.
Q. Wlioro were you born ? A. In niichmnt, Russia.
Q. Wbat is your father's nrimo. A. Karl ^FartfMis.
Q. Where was ho boi-n ? A. In Cormauy.
Q. Wbrn (lid yon leave Baehniut. Russia? A. When I loft
Russia?
14
Q. Yes ; Baehmut, Russia. A. 1 was two years old.
Q. Where did you go from there? A. To Kursk.
Q. Kursk, Eussia? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And how old were you when you left Kursk, Russia '( A.
Seventeen years old.
Q. What was your occupation at that time? A. I just finished
gymnasium at that time.
Q. What is your mother's name? A. Christiana.
Q. Where was she horn ? A. In Lubek, Grermany.
Q. Were you in Petrograd at one time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You lived there for a number of years ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Until when ? A. Until 1896.
Q. And how long were you in Petrograd ? A. Five years.
Q. Did you receive any technical instruction of any kind while
in Petrograd ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What kind? A. Technological Institute.
Q. And what degree did you receive in that institute? A. Engi-
neer.
Q. What stud?nt organizations were yoii identified with while
you were studying in Petrograd ? A. As a stndent I belonged to
an organization for studying Marxian theories.
Q. Did you devote considerable time to a study of the Marxian
theories while you were there as a student ? A. Yes, sir,
Q. Will you give us the name of the original organizations you
were connected with in Russia at that time? A. I was connected
with the Union for Liberation of Russian Working Class.
Q. Any others ? A. Xo others, no.
Q. What action did the authorities take towards you with
rega.rd to your connection with this organization or any other
organization? A. I was airested in 1806 by the Russian author-
ities.
Q. What was the out- '/mi ( of that arrest? A. I was deported
from Russia.
Q. To where? A. To Germany.
Q. To what part of Germany ? A. Berlin.
Q. Did you meet iSTicolai Lenine, who is now Premier of
Russia, at that time? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was your connection with him ? A. We belonged to
the same organization.
Q. Was your association with him of an intimate character?
A. More or less.
Q. Quite intimate? A. Yes, I knew him.
15
Q. ^\'lult yeiir was that vou were deported to Germany '? A.
]Si)() — IK), 1 beg- pardon. ISiHi I was arrested; in 1899 1 was
(l('j)oiie(l to Gerniany.
Q. W(>re yo.u contiued in prison as a result of your activities
th(M(> for any time (' A. Yes, sir.
Q. For how long a times A. Throe years.
Q. V\'hat happened at the end of those three years ( A. They
dcpcu'ted 1110 to lirermany.
(^. riiat was the time you were deported i? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What year was that in ? A. 1899.
Q. Have you been to Russia since then ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. \Mien were you there? A. During the first revolutioni, in
1005 and '06.
Q. On what particular charge, Avhat specific charge wea.'e you
confined in prison for three yeai's ? A. The specific charge was —
Q. What was the charge or indictment or information? A.
Propaganda directed against the .Czar's government.
Q. Wasn't it in connection with fomenting strikes ? A. No,
not exactly; it was during the coronation of Czar Xieholas the
Secoaid, we made political propaganda amongst working people in
l\ussia, and there was a big strike at the same time so we took
l);nt in the strike agitation too.
Q. What did Nicolai Lenine have to do with fomenting those
strikes? A. Nicolai Lenine was arrested,
Q. What disposition was made of him ? A. Sent to Siberia.
Q. How long did he stay in Siberia? A. I think for about five
years.
By Mr. Berger:
Q. Who succeeded Lenine in the leadership of the jjarticular
iirouj) of which he was the head after his arrest? A. Well, the
movement was not concentrated at that time. So, that practically
every town had its organization. There was no permanent leader
at the time.
Q. Isn't it a fact that you were one of the leadeis that suc-
ceeded Lenine in your ])articular locality? A, 'Ko.
Q. It is not ? A. No.
Q. AVhat town in Germany did you entei- after your deporta-
tion from Russia succeeding your release? A. Berlin.
Q. I think you mentioned the year before, but let us have
it again, please. A. 1899.
16
Q. What did you do when your entered Germany, Berlin? A,
I was made a soldier.
Q. A soldier in the German army? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long did you serve in the German army? A. Two
years.
Q. In what capacity ? A. A common soldier.
Q. When you entered Germany, were you apprehended by the
German military authorities ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What happened immediately thereafter ? A. I had to enter
the German army.
Q. On what authority did the German military authorities
compel you. to serve in the German army? A. On the theory that
I am a German ; because my father was a German citizen.
Q. How old were you at that time ? A. I was about 26.
Q. W^hat branch of the service did you serve in ? A. The engi-
neers.
Q. Were you ever subject to court-martial in the Geraian
arrny? A. What is that?
Q. Were you ever subject to court-martial in the German
army? A. JN'o, sir; I was not.
Q. When did you leave the German military service? A.
1901.
Q. Have you at this time either about you. or elsewhere avail-
able any of your military papers? A. At this time?
Q. Yes. A. No, sir.
Q. You have not ? A. jSFo, sir ; I have not.
Q. What became of them ? A. I lost them somewhere,
Q. Where were you stationed in Germany? A. In Berlin.
Q. In Berlin ? A. Yes, sir.
:Q. Now, when you received your discharge from the German
army, what did you do ? A. I entered the Polytechnic Institute
in Charlottenberg, Germany.
Q. The Polytechnic Institute in Charlottenberg? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long were you there ? A. I think over one year.
Q. Were you engaged in any revolutionary activity in Ger-
many ? A. Yes, I was.
Q. Will you tell us fully and in detail concerning this matter ?
A. I was engaged in the revolutionary activities as far as it con-
cerned Eussia. The German movement did not interest me. I
was always in communication with Eussian revolutionary organi-
zations.
ir
Q. Who co-operated with you in these aetivities directed
towards Russia? A. Russian organizations which were in l')erliii
and some other parts of Germany.
Q. And you were in constant connaunication with revohi-
tionaries in Russia while you were in Germany? A. Yes, I was.
Q. And could you send pro])aij;anda from Germany into Rus-
sia? A. Yes.
Q. Coverino- a period of how many years? A. Five years.
Q. And who prepared this pro])ac:anda ? A. It was |)re|)ared
partly in Switzerland and partly in France.
Q. But you, yourself, knew at all times the content-^ of the
various documents and papers that you sent from Gernnniy into
Russia, and you knew it was revolutionary propaganda ? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. After you left Charlottenlierg, where did you go, Mr. ]\Iar-
tens ? A. I Avent to Hamburg.
Q. In what year was that? A. In 1903. I stayed in Ham-
burg up until 1905.
Q. Did you still continue your revolntiouary activities in Ham-
burg? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you still continue sending ))ropaganda from Ham-
burg into Russia ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where was Lenine at that time i A. In Brooklyn.
Q. Were you in communication with him? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you at that time in contact and connnunication witli
Drownstein, now known as Leon Trotzky ? A. ^"es. I was.
Q. Where was Trotzky at lhat time? A. He was in P.erlin
several times, and mostly in Switzerland.
Q. What date w^ould you fix for that, Mr. .Martens^ A. I
think the first time I met Trotzky was 1901 in B(>rliii.
Q. 1901? A. 1901.
Q. Where did you meet him thereaftei'^ A. 190;] iiiul 190.").
Q. Where, Mr. Martens? A. Iii Germany; in Hcrlin. mostly.
Q. Did you ever meet Tj-otzky, alias Brownstein. in London ^
A. ^'es, sir.
Q. What year was that? A. In London — 1 nevei' met him —
excuse me, but I met him in Xew York.
Q. Where did you meet him in Xew York? A. In 1917.
Q. 1917? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was his occupation in New York at that time? A.
He was editing the Russian pajier called Xovy ]\[ir.
18
Q. Were you connected with that paper I A. Yes, sir.
Q. In what capacity ? A. I was on the editorial board of this
paper.
Q. And this paper is still being published in New York City at
this time ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you know a man named Bucharin ? A. Y^'es, sir.
Q. Was he on the editorial staff of Novy Mir? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What position does Bucharin at this time hold in the Fed-
erated Soviet Republic which you represent here? A. lie is an
editor of a newspaper called Pravda.
Q. Are you familiar with the publication published in this
city called Class Stniggle ? A. More or less ; yes, sir.
Q. You know it ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. It is a publication gotten out in Brooklyn? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall an issue in May of this year which contained
an article by Bucharin? A. I do not recall the article, but prob-
ably it was published.
Q. Do you recall an article in that publication called Class
Struggle entitled '^ The Church in the Soviet State," by Bucharin;
do you recall that ? A. Yes, I recall it.
Q. And the man that wrote that article is the Mr. Bucharin
who holds this official position in Russia, and who is on the edi-
torial staff of jSTovy Mir in this city? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you familiar with the publication called ''The Revolu-
tionary Age " ? A. Very little.
Q. You know there is such a publication? A. Yes, I know
there is such a publication,
Q. Did you see the issue of July 19, 1919, containing an article
by the same Bucharin? A. I do not remember seeing it.
Q. What part did you take in the Russian revolution in 1905?
A. We organized the Russian workingmen.
Q. What particular part did you personally take.in that revolu-
tion? A. As an organizer.
Q. As one of the organizers ? A. As one of the organizers.
Q. How long did your activities as an organizer continue?
A. 1905 and 1906.
Q. And how did you get revolutionary propaganda from Ger-
many to Russia? A, Oh, we had many ways to get it in.
Q. Will you describe the various ways through which you
succeeded in getting this propaganda from Gennany into Russia ?
A. We smuggled it in.
19
Q. Do you recall the uaiues oi any persous engaged in that
])aiii('ular activity? A. No, 1 don't recall; so many.
Q. Are any of thtnn here in this country at the present time?
A. iSTot that I know of.
Q. Did you become involved with the Clerman authorities as
result of your activities in that direction? A. No.
Q. Not that you kiioAv off A. No.
Q. Were you under oliservation at that time of the German
authorities, as far as you know? A. Not to my knowledge, but I
suspected that I was.
Q. As a matter of fact, you were not interfered with by the
German authorities ? A. I beg your pardon.
Q. I say, as a matter of fact you were not interfered with by
t he German authorities ? A. No, I was not.
Q. When were you last in Switzerland, Mr. Martens? A. 190(5,
1 was there.
Q. And when were you there for the first time? A. Oh, for a
short stay in 1903 and in 190(5 1 was there for a couple of months.
Q. What was your particular purpose, if 1 may ask, in going
to Switzerland in 19031 A. To see friends.
Q. Was Xicolai Loniue our of them ( A. Yes, he was one of
them.
Q. And what was your j)nr])ose i)i seeing Lenine at that time in
Switzerland ? A. To discuss the situation.
Q. Which situation ? A. The Russian revolutionary situation.
Q. And as sl result of your discussion with Lenine, what did
you do? A. Well, I continued to do my usual business.
Q. Just what? A. I can not quite follow your question, Mr.
Berger.
Q. Well, you say you continued to do your usual business, now
I ask you what that was. A. I had to earn ray living.
Q. Well, we all like to do that and we all do that, but in what
particular way did you earn your living? A. I was an engineer
connected with a large German finn in Hamburg.
Q. And did you go to see Lenine in connection with your being
an engineer for a large firm in Hamburg ? A. Certainly not.
Q. Well then, as a result of your seeing Lenine in Switzer-
land at that time, will you tell us specifically what you did and
where you did it? A. The question is too broad and general for
me to answer, Mr. Berger.
Q. Well, I will try to separate it. You saw Lenine in 1903
in Switzerland? A. Yes.
20
Q. You went there for a specific purpose ? A. Yes.
Q. What was that specific purpose? A. To discuss the situa-
tion in the Russian tSocial Democratic party. They had split up
into Mensheviks and Bolsheviks and there were a thousand and
one questions to discuss.
Q. Which particular group of that party were you allied with 'i
A. The Bolsheviki.
Q. And you thereafter did something as a result of your inter-
view with Lenine, didn't you ? A. Not specifically, unless I cor-
responded —
Q. Well, what did you do in general ? A. Again, I was in-
terested in the Russian movement, and I was always connected
with it.
Q. You were a member of the Central Revolutionary Com-
mittee at that time ? A. No, I was not.
Q. You were subsequent to that time? A. Yes.
Q. In what year ? A. Excuse me. I was never in the Central
Committee, but I was closely connected.
Q. You were one of the prime movers ? A. No, I would not
call it so.
Q. Well, how deep was your interest in the movement ? A.
How deep ? Well, gentlemen, the Russian revolution was my
life, I can tell you.
Q. Now, you went to Switzerland in 1905 again ? A. In 190G.
Q. And what was your purpose in going to Switzerland in
1906 ? A. Well, I wanted to take a rest, and I stayed about a
couple of months.
Q. Did you see Lenine at that time ? A. No, not at that time.
I saw Plekhanov.
Q. Who was Plekhanov? A. A leader of the Mensheviks.
Q. Would you say that the propaganda you were engaged in
during the years you have mentioned was of a provocative kind ?
A. What do you call a provocative kind ?
Q. Well, that word has a pretty well accepted meaning. A. No.
Q. Well, of a kind to stir up strife, discontent and possible
bloodshed ? A. Well, my propaganda was — now, gentlemen, the
Russian revolution is not a thing of the past couple of years, the
revolution dates back 50 years, and many of the best Russian
men were in it and ended their lives in Siberia, so the revolu-
tionary propaganda of ours would be of no provocative character,
because the Czar's government provoked the revolution and we
had only to defend ourselves and our liberty as a people.
21
Q. Did your propagiinda attack the ])ourgeoisic as well as the
aristocracy i A. We were interested in propaganda among the
working class.
Q. Will you answer the question as 1 have put it t A. Oh,
yes.
Q. And your })ropaganda has consistently from the time that
you were first engaged in it until the very present time been
directed against the bourgeoisie, as well as the aristocracy? A.
It was a class conscious propaganda.
Q. And with which particular class exclusively did you repre-
sent and ally yourself? A. The working class and the peasants.
Q. And that was naturally directed also against the bourgeoisie,
the petty shopkeeper and tradesnum ? A. iS^o, I should not say
so, the capitalist class.
Q. Well, just what do you mean by the capitalist class ? A.
The capitalist class is the class which is living on the producing
labor of other people.
The Chairman. — How far down do you go in your classifica-
tion of capitalists? Where would you stop and where would you
begin ?
The Witness. — Well, that is rather a metaphysical question,
Mr. Chairman, I could not nud-ce exactly a definition of where the
capitalist starts and the workiugman finishes?
The Chairman. — According to your conception who would be a
capitalist ?
The Witness. — W>11, here in this country it would be J. P.
Morgan, he would be a (•a()italist ; some profiteer would be a
capitalist.
The Chairman. — Well, would you term a man who owned real
estate a capitalist, who got an income from real estate?
The Witness. — Oh, well, in some occasions, yes.
The Chairman. — Suppose a man owned his own house, lived
in the house himself, or on the ]>remises, and had a tenant?
The Witness. — It does not make him a capitalist.
The Chairman. — Well now, who would you call a capitalist ?
The Witness. — A man who is living on the producing labor not
his own.
22
Tho Chairman. — Well, liow nre you going to pick out that
man ? How are you going to tell ?
The Witness. — Well, a man who has a thousand men working
for him and is employing them and living on the labor of those
men, he is a capitalist.
By Mr. Berger :
Q. Suppose he has ten men employed ? A. The same thing.
Q. Suppose he has two men in his employ, would he be a
capitalist ? A. Not at all.
Q. Well, do you draw the line at ten? A. I draw no line at
all. Sometimes he might have one hundred workingmen employed
and still not be a capitalist.
The Chairman. — Suppose you take a horseshoer who has one
or two men working for him in a shop, would you call him a
capitalist ?
The Witness. — Probably I would.
The Chairman. — So that your system would class all as
capitalists from the person who has two or three men in his
employ upward ? Is that your conception ?
The Witness. — No, Mr. Chairman. When do you call a man
a bald man ? How many hairs does he have to have on his head
to be called a bald man ?
By Mr. Berger :
Q. After you left Switzerland the second time, where did you
go ? A. I went to England.
Q. What particular city in England ? A. London.
Q. When was that ? A. 1906.
Q. Did you have a passport ? A. No, I had no particular pass-
port.
Q. When you say you had no " particular passport," what do
you mean — did you have any passport ? A. No, I want to say
according to the laws of England no passports were required.
Q. Where did you go from England ? A. I stayed in England
until 1916.
Q. And where did you go from there ? A. To New York.
Q. To New York ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. DidJii't you go back to Germany ? A. No, I did not.
Q. Had you been in New York before that? A. Yes, I was.
Q. When? A. For a short period in 1906, I think. It was
the time before I went to England.
Q. During what years were you in England ? A. From 1900
— until 1906."
Q. Now you were there following the outbreak of the great
war? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And how did you register in England; as a subject or
citizen of what nation ? A. Of Germany.
Q. And you were truthful in so registering, weren't you ? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. Then you were as a matter of fact in 1916 a German sub-
ject, weren't you ? A. Technically, yes, I was.
Q. Were you or weren't you ? A. Yes, I was.
Q'. You then came to this country ? A. Yes.
Q. In what month in 1916? A. I think it was January, 1916.
Q. In January of 1916? A. Yes.
Q. And did you not execute and sign a customs declaration?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. When you entered this country? A. Yes.
Q. In January, 1916? A. Yes. '
Q. What citizenship did you claim at that time ? A. German
citizenship — I was forced to claim it.
Q. What do you mean, you were forced to claim German citi-
zenship ? Who in this country forced you to claim that ? A.
Nobody forced me, but I came with papers that forced me to say I
was a German citizen technically.
Q. Were those papers genuine or did they set forth the fact?
A. Certainly, I had to come with permission of the British gov-
ernment to the United States.
Q. Then as a matter of fact you were not forced in this country
to claim German citizenship? A. No, I could not claim that if
my papers said that.
Q. Were your papers correct or incorrect ? A. Absolutely
incorrect, — and permit me to explain.
Q. You made the statement when you came to this country
that you claimed Gcrmim citizenship? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, you tell us you arrived with valid, truthful papers
which set foi-th the fact that you were of German citizenship?
A. Permit me to explain.
24
Q. Explain it. A. When I was registering in England I
claimed to he a Russian citizen.
Q. Didn't you tell us a minute ago you claimed to be a German
citizen ? A. I didn't claim it, I claimed to be a Russian citizen,
but the British authorities registered me as a German citizen
because I could not produce sufficient papers. That is the reason
I was so registered in England and that is the reason I received
certain papers to America, where I had to claim to be a German
citizen.
Q. What was the name of the person in England to whom you
claimed to be a German citizen and not a Russian citizen ? A.
With all the persons which which I had to deal.
Q. At all events, the British authorities were not satisfied with
your claims ? A. They were not satisfied with my papers but
were satisfied with my claims.
Q. Didn't you have a German military passport? A. I didn't
have any.
Q. Why didn't they put you down as a citizen of Brazil ?
A. Because they asked where my father came from and I told
them from Germany.
Q. And you told them you had served in the German army?
A. Yes, I told them.
Q. And the authorities felt satisfied you should be classed as
a German citizen ? A. 'No, the authorities felt satisfied to put
down a Russian, but only technically a German citizen.
Q. Then when you came to this country you continued setting
forth the fact that you were a German citizen, didn't you ? A. I
never had occasion to claim it.
Q. What statement did you make on your custom house declara-
tion when you entered this country? A. The usual declaration.
Q. That you were a citizen of what country ? A. Germany.
Q. Did you register as an alien enemy when you entered this
country ? A. No, sir.
Q. Or at any time when you were in this country ? A. ISTo, sir.
Q. At any time while this country was at war with Germany ?
A. ISTo, sir.
Q. In spite of the fact you entered as a German citizen? A.
In spite of the fact that I entered as a German citizen.
Q. What citizenship do you now claim? A. Russian citizen-
ship.
<-<
25
Q. How did you acquire Russian citizenship? A. I applied
for Russian citizenship papers since the outbreak of the Russian
revohition.
Q. When? A. In March, 1917.
Q. You have not left this country since you last came here?
A. Xo, I did not leave.
Q. When did you receive notice of your having become a Rus-
sian citizen, Mr. Mai-tens? A. I think May, 1917, or maybe
-lune, 1917.
Q. What sort of notice did you get? A. That my request is
granted and I was made ofScially a Russian citizen.
Q. Was that an official notice? A. jSTo, frojn my friends.
Q. It came from your aunt or your sister ? A. My sister.
Q. N'ow, what prerequisite does the Russian Soviet government
require to the attainment of citizenship on the part of a person
who is not in Russia at the time the claim is made ? A. I could
not tell you, gentlemen, what was required, because I am not
versed in those matters. The only thing I could tell you is when
I was a boy of about seventeen years I applied for Russian citizen
papers from tlie Russian government and General von Wahl
refused to grant me citizenship papers because he wanted me
first to serve in the German army and then to become a Russian
citizen, so I was refused in 1917 on account of not having served
in the German army. Second, my request was, as I told you,
after the outbreak of the Russian revolution, and I really don't
know what kind of laws, T don't suppose any specific laws were
in existence, — anyhow, I don't know.
Q. Is there anything to prevent any resident of this country at
this time from acquiring Russian citizenship in the same way that
you acquired it ? A. Nothing, only that he be an honest man.
Q. So that any person living in the United States who is ad-
mittedly an honest man can become a citizen of Soviet Russia
by simply proving that he is an honest man? A. Yes, sir.
Q. There is no requirement that it be made public in tliis
country, is there ? A. I beg pardon.
Q. There is no requirement imposed by the Bolshevist govern-
ment that that person make that fact known to this country ?
A. l\o.
Q. Have you any idea how many individuals in the United
States at the present time have acquired citizenship in the Soviet
Republic in a similar manner? A. Nobody.
26
Q. There is nothing to prevent their doing that ? A. Th<>re is
nothing to prevent their doing that.
Assemblyman McElligott. — Would they have to consult you
as authority for that application to be made ?
The Witness. — No, Mr. Chairman, I have nothing to do with
the making of citizens in Russia. It is not my business. They
have to apply to the central authorities.
Mr. Berger. — I feel it necessary to emphasize at this point that
this plan of changing citizenship which is called to our attention
by the witness at this time, and which was admitted by him, if
it be put into eifect generally and recognized by international law,
would enable the foreign element to surrender their citizenship
to this country without any declaration ; so it would be impossible
for us at any time in this country to know who is an American
citizen or who is a citizen of the Soviet Republic of Russia.
Mr. Martens. — Mr. Berger, permit me to make a few remarks.
Mr. Berger is a lawyer, and he probably knows, that according to
American law, if a man leaves a country and stays in a country
more than five years, he loses his citizenship, without making
any declaration to that effect ; is it not so ?
The Chairman. — Yes.
The Witness. — This fact about citizenship has uothing to do
with any propaganda, or any facilitating of propaganda, as Mr.
Berger wants to make you believe.
The Chairman. — Mr. Berger, you claim the procuring of
citizenship in this peculiar way, and that is why it occurs to you
that there might be a general method of acquiring citizenship
with a residence here ?
Mr. Berger. — The point I desire to emphasize is this : The
witness has testified if a man is admittedly honest, and expresses
a desire and an intention of becoming a citizen of Soviet Russia,
his mere declaration or sayso is sufficient.
The Chairman. — Must not that be conveyed to the government
in some way ? Must not that be explained to the other govern-
ment ?
Mr. Berger. — Did you suppose it was explained on the part of
this government? But our country knows nothing about it; and
on that theory we could not know how many individuals in this
country who claim American citizenship; either by birth or
naturalization, may at the same time be citizens of Soviet Russia.
That is the point T want to emphasize.
Assemblyman Pellet. — And the man would not have to go to
Russia to become a citizen ?
Mr. Berger. — That is correct. He could live here and claim
protection of the American citizenship, and at the same time be
a citizen of Russia under that method.
The Witness. — It is not true, Mr. Berger.
Mr. Berger. — Mr. Stevenson at this point would like to ask a
few questions of Mr. Martens.
By Mr. Stevenson:
Q. Mr. Martens, you are a member of the Russian Communi&t
Party, are you not ( A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that party is the party which is now in control of the
government of Soviet Russia, is it not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Mr. Nicholas Lenine is the premier, is he not ? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And Mr. Leon Trotzky is the Minister of War? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. That is the Communist Party has issued a call for what
is known as the Third International, is it not ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that call was made in the form of a numifesto, was it
not ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it was signed by Charles Rakovsky, Nicholas Lenine — ■
A. Yes, sir.
Q. B. Zinoviev, Leon Trotzky, Fritz Platten ? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stevenson. — Mr. Chairman, I wish to read from a trans-
lation of this manifesto which was published on May 10, 1919,
the issue of " The Revolutionary Age," in Boston.
The Chairmim. — All right, proceed. Is that a translation in
English!
Mr. Stevenson. — Yes, sir.
The Chairman. — What is the original ?
Mr. Stevenson. — Russian.
28
By Mr. Stevenson:
Q. That is in Russian, isn't it ? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stevenson. — (Reading) — "To the proletariat of all coun-
tries !
" Seventy-two years have gone by since the Communist Party of
the World proclaimed its program in the form of the Manifesto
written by the greatest teachers of the proletarian revolution, Karl
Marx and Frederick Engels. Even at that early time," — and
then it goes on to say: "For a long span of years Socialism pre-
dicted the inevitableness of the imperialistic war ; it perceived the
essential cause of this war in the insatiable greed of the possessing
classes in both camps of capitalist nations."
And, further on, it says : "And the German Socialist patriots,
who in August 1914 proclaimed the diplomatic White Book of
the Hohenzolleni as the holiest gospel of the people, today, in
vulgar syco})hancy, join with the Socialists of the Entente coun-
tries in accusing as arch-criminals the deposed German monarchy
which they formerly served as slaves. In this way they hope to
erase the memory of their own guilt and to gain the good will of
the visitors. But alongside the dethroned dynasties of the Roman-
offs, Hohenzollerns and Hapsburgs, and the capitalistic cliques
of these lands, the rulers of France, England. Italy and the United
States stand revealed in the light of unfolding events and diplo-
matic disclosures in their immeasurable vileness."
And then it proceeds further in describing the duties and
requirements of the Communist ; it says :
"Civil war if forced upon the laboring classes by their arch-
enemies. The working class must answer blow for blow, if it will
not renounce its own object and its own future which is at the
same time the future of all humanity."
"The Communist parties, far from conjuring up civil war arti-
ficially, rather strive to shorten its duration as much as possible —
in case it has become an iron necessity — to minimize the number of
victims, and above all to secure victory for the proletariat. This
makes necessary the disarming of the bourgeoisie at the proper
time, the arming of the laborer, and the fonnation of a communist
army as the protector of the rule of the proletariat and the inviola-
bility of the social structure."
The Chairman. — What is the date of that publication ?
Mr. Stevenson. — May 10, 1919.
29
The Chairman.- — Is that published in the City of New York?
Mr. Stevenson. — No, sir. It is published in Boston. It has
been published at New York City at other times.
I wish to offer those quotations in evidence.
The Chairman. — They are received.
(Received in evidence and marked Exhibit 305 of this date.)
liy Mr. Stevenson:
Q. Thi.s manifesto was issued as an appeal to all Communist
groups in other countries, was it not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Nicholas Lenine has addressed a communication to the
American workingmen, has he not ? A. Yes, as far as I know.
Mr. Stevenson. — Mr. Chairman, I wish to offer in evidence
certain parts of ''A letter to American Workingmen," which is
issued by Nicholas Lenine from Moscow August 20, 1918, and I
wish to read parts, as follows :
**A Russian Bolshevik who participated in the Revolution
of 1905 and for many years afterwards lived in your country
has offered to transmit this letter to you. I have grasped
this opportunity joyfully for the revolutionary proletariat
of America — in so far as it is the enemy of American imperi-
alism— is destined to perform an important task at this time.
The letter goes on to say:
*' Political activity is not as smooth as the pavement of the
Nevski Prospect. lie is no revolutionist who would have the
revolution of the proletariat only under the 'condition' that
it ])roceed smoothly and in an orderly manner, that guarantees
against defeat be given beforehand, that tlie revolution go
forward along the broad, free, straight, path to victory, that
there shall not be here and there the heaviest sacrifices, that
we shall not have to lie in wait in besieged fortresses, shall
not have to climb up along the narrowest path, the most
impassable, winding, dangerous mountain roads."
And, further on it says :
"In words our accusers ' recognize' this kind of class
struggle, in deeds they revert again and again to the middle-
class Utopia of ' Class-harmony ' and the mutual ' interde-
pendence' of classes upon one another. In reality the class
30
struggle in revolutionary times has always inevitably taken
on the form of civil war, and civil war is unthinkable without
the worst kind of destruction, without terror and limitations
of form of democracy in the interests of the war. One must
be a sickly sentimentalist not to be able to see, to understand
and appreciate this necessity."
And, further on :
" Its servants charge us with the use of terroristic methods.
— Have the English forgotten their 1649, the French their
1793 '^ Terror was just and justified when it was employed
by the bourgeoisie for its own purposes against feudal domina-
tion. But terror becomes criminal when workingmen and
poverty stricken peasants dare to use it against the bour-
geoisie. Terror was just and justified when it was used to
put one exploiting minority in the place of another. But
terror becomes horrible and criminal when it is used to
abolish all exploiting minorities, when it is employed in the
cause of the actual majority, in the cause of the proletariat
and the semi-proletariat, of the working-class and the poor
peasantry."
By Mr. Stevenson. —
Q. Mr, Martens, if I understand this portion of Lenine's letter
correctly, it is a statement that terror has been employed by the
Soviet government ? A. Yes, it has been.
Q. As a matter of fact, Mr. Martens, have not a considerable
number of commissars at one time or another been executed in
Soviet Russia? A. Yes, sir,
Q, I believe at one time you named to me the number? A. I
think about ISOO of them.
Q. About 1500 commissars were executed ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. This publication of which a large number of reprints were
found among documents recently taken in the raid on the head-
quarters of the Communist party in this city made a week ago
last Saturday night.
Mr, Martens (interposing).— Mr, Chairman, permit me a
question ?
Mr, Stevenson, — Just a moment.
The Chairman. — We will give you an opportunity to say all
you desire.
31
Q. Mr. Martens, as a matter of fact the Russian Soviet Re-
public is based upon the principles of the Communist Party of
Russia, is it not ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Isn't it one of the principles of the Communist Party that
the workers of the world should unite ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And that they should unite to overthrow capitalistic system
the w^orld over ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Isn't it the principle of the Russian Soviet Government that
the capitalist governments of other countries should be over-
thrown ; answer yes or no. A. I cannot answer yes or no.
Q. You have done it for me once before ? A. Yes, but you put
the question in different ways.
Q. Well, supposing 1 put it precisely the same way
Mr. Stevenson. — I offer the book I was reading from in evi-
dence.
The Chairman. — It will be received.
(Received and marked Exhibit 306 in evidence of this date.)
Q. The question is this : ^' Isn't it a fact that in overthrowing
the capitalist system (referring to the Soviet Government ) they
wish and state they wish the overthrow of the capitalist govern-
ment ? " Answer my question, please. A. Do they wish the over-
throw of capitalist government, or do they not wish to, is that the
question?
Q. Yes, sir. A. That is their wish. Their wish is to change
from the capitalist system to the socialist system.
The Chairman. — How do they expect this change to come
about?
The Witness. — Well, the change may come in many ways, Mr.
Chairman; the change may come on purely pacific ways, and it
may come as a result of a bitter struggle. Many ways are ix)ssible.
Q. Mr. Martens
The Chairman. — Just a minute. But they are willing to
accept any way so long as it is done; so long as they obtain the
result they do not mind which way that happens?
The Witness. — They do not care how it is done.
The Chairman. — Whether it is done by terror or diplomacy ?
The Witness. — It is a matter of the working class.
The Chairman. — It is a matter for themselves to settle.
The Witness. — It is a matter for themselves to settle.
32
By Mr. Stevenson:
Q. I ask this question again: Isn't it a matter wherever the
Soviet Government issues propaganda advising the propriety of
overthrowing of capitalist governments of other countries ? A.
They are issuing propaganda as a defense.
Q. I am asking you this question: Isn't it a fact that the
Soviet Government issues proj^aganda advising the propriety of
overthrowing the capitalist governments in other countries ? A.
No, it is not a fact. I deny it.
Q. In answer to that question before you said it does. A. It
does in a specific way as a means of defense against attacking.
Q» But it does, does it not ? A. Yes, as a means of defense.
]\lr. Berger. — Would you call Lenine's letter to the American
workingmen a matter of defense, a matter of affirmative defense ?
The Witness. — As a matter of defense to a certain extent.
Mr. Berger. — Is it a matter of propaganda ?
The Witness. — Yes, sir.
Mr. Berger. — Then it is affirmative propaganda, is it not ?
The Witness. — Yes.
Mr. Berger.— I suggest that we take an adjournment. There
are certain reasons why we want an adjournment at this time.
The Chairman. — WTiat time do you suggest for the next meet-
ing of the Committee ?
Mr. Berger. — A week from to-morrow at 10 :30 a. m. At that
time Attorney-General Newton will be down here personally, and
I suggest that date, if it is agreeable to the Committee.
The Chairman. — The Committee is satisfied to grant that ad-
journment until that date and that time.
Mr. Stevenson. — Will you direct the witness to return?
The Chairman. — Mr. Martens, will you a]~)pear here before
this Committee at this place at a week from to-morrow at 10:30
o'clock, to continue this examination ?
The Witness. — Yes, sir.
Whereupon, at 3:15 o'clock p. m., the Committee recessed to
meet on Tuesday, November 25, 1919, at 10 :30 o'clock a. m.
33
MEETING OF JOINT LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE OF THE
STATE OF NEW YORK TO INVESTIGATE
SEDITIOUS ACTIVITIES
City Hall, New York,
Noremher 25, 1919, 10.30' a. m.
Present:
Senator Walters,
Senator ]\Lnllan,
Asseinblvinnii Martin (N'^ice-Cliairnian),
Asi-'enil)l_vnian Pellet,
Assemblyman flenks.
Assemblyman McKIJigot i,
Senator Boylan,
i\sscmblyman Bnrr.
Aj)/)('<ir(nices:
lion. Charles I). Tsewton, Attorney-General,
IIcui. Saiiuiel A. IJei-oer, Drpnty Attorney-General,
Archibald K. Stevenson, Esq., Associate Counsel.
^Mi'. Chai'les A. Hotaling, Sergeant-at-Arnis.
The Vice-Chairman (Assemblvman Martin). — The meetine;
will eome to. order, please. At the request of some of the members
of the Committee they desire to take ten minutes' time for consul-
tation in anotlu'v room in regard to some matters.
(At 11.20 A. >:., the Committee returned to the Council
Chamber).
The Chairman. — The Committee will come to order. I assume
you were to go on with some examination, General Newton?
The Attorney-General. — Yes, .Mi-. Chainnan. Mv. ]\[artens,
(Mr. Ludwig C. A. K. Martens takes the witness stand.)
The .\ttorney-(ieneraI. — Mr. Martens, I understand you have
been ])i-e\ioiisly sworn (
The Witness. — Yes, sir. Before we proceed, will you let me
make -onie changes, some corrections in the minutes?
2
34
The Chai]'man. — Very well. Do you desire to read your cor-
rections into the minutest There is no objection to that, is there,
General ?
The Attorney-General. — Xo, I have no objection to that.
Assemblyman AfcEllioott. — Is that a stenogra})hic copy of the
minutes ?
The Witness. — Yes, I wish to correct.
Assemblyman McElligott.- — From your memory or from some
notes taken at the time ?
The Witness. — ISTo, T have an official copy of the minutes.
The Attorney-General. — He has an official copy of the minutes
here.
Deputy Attorney-General Berger. — I furnished a copy of the
minutes to ]\Ir. j\Iartens' attorney.
The Chairman. — You may proceed, if you desire to read your
corrections, as I understand it, in the minutes. Is there objection
to that, General ?
The Attorney-General. — I have no objection.
The Witness. — (Reading) :
" Although ostensib-ly I have been called before your Com-
mittee as a witness, yet in effect the statements given out to
the pi-ess by the Attorney-General's office make it appear that
the object of my examination is to obtain evidence in order to
proceed against me. Still I have been denied the privilege
of counsel — "
The Chairman. — That is a statement, isn't it ?
The Attorney-General. — That is a sermon you are preaching
now, that is not a correction.
Mr. Martens. — Yes, T will get to it in a minute.
The Chairman. — I thought possibly you could nrake that state-
ment at the end.
The Attorney-General. — Well, let him do it in his own way
first.
35
The Witness. — (Resuming reading) :
" With the result that the examination has been one-sided
and the testimony given by me, through its incompleteness
is open to misrepresentation. I therefore desire to make the
following statement, in order to correct actual errors and the
gaps in the record.
" 1. The record of my testimony on pages 1071-1072
contains the following questions and answers:
" Q. Did you register as an alien enemy when you entered
this country? A. 'No, sir.
" Q. Or at any time when you were in this country ? A.
No, sir.
" Q. At any time while this country was at war with Ger-
many ? A. No, sir.
" Q. In spite of the fact you entered as a German citizen ?
A. In spite of the fact that I entered as a German citizen.
" Q. What citizenship do you now claim? A. Russian
citizenship.
" Q. How did you acquire Russian citizenship ? A. I
applied for Russian citizenship papers since the outbreak
of the Russian Revolution.
"Q. When? A. In March, 1917.
" Q. You have not left this country since you last came
here? A. No, I did not leave.
" Q. When did you receive notice of your having become
a Russian citizen, Mr. ^fartciis ^ A. I tliink ^MaY, 1917, or
maybe June, 1917.
'" This testimony is followed by an effort to assail the regu-
larity of my Russian citizenship. The examination con-
ducted by Deputy Attorney-General and associate counsel to
the Committee, however, has failed to bring out all the facts
relating to my Russian citizenship, and it is a well-known
rule that anything short of the whole truth may in effect
amount to an untruth. My testimony shows that I was born
and educated in Russia; that in 1899 by reason of my affilia-
tion with the revolutionary movement, I was deported by the
Czar's government to Germany ; that I continued my affilia-
tion with the Russian revolutionary movement up to the
revolution which began with the abdication of the Czai* to
the establishment of the Provisional Government on IMareh
16, 1917. This Provisional Government was officially recog-
36
nized by the government of the United States and the State
of ]S[ew York.
" One of the first acts of the Provisional Government was
a proclamation of amnesty for all political offenders which
was made three days after the abdication of the Czar, to wit,
on JMarch Id, 1917. The Provisional Government followed
that act by an invitation to all Russian political refugees to
return to Russia at government expense. Under the terms
of the amnesty I was entitled to return to Russia. Owing
to the fact, however, that, although born and bred in Russia,
I was technically a German subject, and that Russia was
then at war with (Germany, I could not avail myself of the
benefit of the amnesty proclamation without a special act of
the Provi'si(mal 'Government. 1\ thei^'efore immediately
applied for admission to Russian citizenship, and my appli-
cation was granted by the Provisional Government of Prince
Lvov in ^lay or June, 1917. By this act of the Provisional
Government, I thus became a Russian citizen.
" I desire to emphasize the fact that my naturalization as
a Russian citizen was granted by an act of the government
which was recognized by the government of the United
States.
" Tlie general rules and regulations prescribed by the
Attorney-General of the United States for the registration of
German alien enemies, were issued on December 31, 1917,
pursuant to the proclamation of the President of the United
States, dated November 16, 1917. At that time I was already
a Russian citizen and was therefore not subject to registra-
tion under those Rules and Regulations."
The second correction —
Assemblyman McElligott. — How is that a correction of the
record? That is an apology, isn't it?
The Attorney-General. — Well, allow him to continue.
Assemblyman McElligott. — I fail to see that it is a correction.
We are willing to give him an opportunity to speak, but I don't
see how you can attack the record at that point.
The Attorney-General. — Well, T will try to find out vrhat he
means, if we will have a little patience.
37
Tlic Witness. — The second correction, on page 1057 of the
minutes, the following questions and answers appear:
'* Q. Where was Lenine at that time ^ A. In lirooklyn."
This is an error of the stenographer. I never made such a
statement. The answer should be " In Switzerland."
The Attorney-General. — *' Brooklyn '' should be changed to
" Switzerland."
The Witness. — Yes, sir.
The Attorney-General. — Probably the Brooklyn people did not
like that.
The Witness. — Maybe not; I don't know. Pages 1072 and
1073 the following statement appears:
'* The only thing I could tell you is that when I was a boy
of alx)ut 17 years I applied for Russian citizen papers from
the Russian Government and General Von Wahl refused to
grant me citizenship papers ])ecause he wanted me first to
serve in the German army and then to become a Russian
citizen, so 1 was refused in 11)17 on account of not having
served in the Gennan Army."
" The year 1917 is obviously erroneous and in contradic-
tion to the preceding pait of the same sentence, wherein I
stated that at the tinu^ 1 first api)lied for Russian Citizenship
' I was a boy of a])out 17 years.' It is obvious that in the
year 1917 I was no longer a boy of 17. I don't recall now
what words I may have used, but it is obvjous that the words
' in 1917 ' are an error of the stenographer.
" Very respectfully,"
Acting Chairnum ^lartin. — - Docs the General desire to take
that memorandum of his ?
Attorney-General Ne\vton. — If I want it, 1 will ask him for it.
By the Attorney-General:
Q. Now, j\Ir. Martens, the actual correction of the minutes
consists in striking out the word '' Brooklyn," on ])age 1057, and
inserting " Switzerland." That is all the correction on that page?
A. Yes. The next eorreetion wiis on ])iiges 1072—73.
38
Q. I will get to that later. That was the only correction on
that page!; A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, the other pag-e where you chiini the minutes should be
corrected is on page 1072 (f A. And ^3.
Q. 1073^ A. Ves.
Q. Now, what is it you chiini is the matter with page 1072;
what correction do you make there ''i A. 1 did not say that I was
refused in 1917 on account of not having served in the Germany
army. It evidently is a mistake.
Q. That is on page 1073? A. Yes.
Q. Is there any statement on ])age 1072 that you did not make
when you were being sworn and on the witness stand ? A. The
sentence ])eginning on page 1072 — it begins on page 1072 and
finishes at page 1073.
Q. That starts with: " The only thing I can tell you is when
I was a boy "- — ? A. Yes.
Q. Am] cu(h where? A. And ends ^' 1 was refused in 1017 on
account of not having served in the German army."
Q. It ends with the words " German Army ? " A. Yes.
Q. Now, what do you say you said, intended to say ? A. The
year 1917 is erroneous and in contradiction to the preceding part
of the same sentence, wherein I stated that at the time 1 first ap-
j)lied for Russian citizenshi]) I was a 1)oy of about 17 years.
Q. Now, how old were you when you first applied for Russian
citizenship? A. 17 years.
Q, So that part is correct? A. Yes, but it was not in 1917.
Q. Because you were more than 17 in 1917? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, otherwise the stenographer reported you correctly ?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you have read from a paper some statements in addi-
tion to the corrections of the minutes this morning, have vou not ?
A. Yes.
Q. Who pre])ared that }iaper ? A. I myself.
Q. With the assistance of anybody ? A. Yes, I consulted my
lawyers.
Q. This was got up by you for a purpose with the assistance
of your counsel? A. Yes.
Q.. It is not very material, but I see from the public press tljat
you have started some action against some of the newspapers here
for libel, or f^omething of that sort ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was it the same counsel who started those actions, who
])repared this explanation ? A. Well, all my counsel prepared
this.
39
Q. How iiiiiiiv have yon '. A. 1 have three.
(^. I wanted to see how sorrv J ought to ])e for you. A. I
have three.
Q. And they were all together when this stateuicut you have
read this nioruiug to the Committee was prepared^ A. Yes.
Q. And whieh was intended as a correction of the minutes so
far as you have pointed out, and some explanation of your posi-
tion? A. Yes, a correction of the impression given.
Q. A correction of v;hat you thought might he an imjn-ession
gained by the reading of the testimony as published ? A. Yes.
Q. Well now, you were asked — which you have read as one
of the minutes on page 1072 — " When did you receive notice of
your having become a Kussian citizen?" "A. I think maybe
May, 1917. or may lie Tune, 1J)17." That is correct? A. Yes,
that is correct.
Q. How did you receive that notice? A. As I explained last
time, from my relatives in Russia.
Q. Well, I know, but how, by letter or how? A. By letter,
yes.
Q. Do you remember what one of your relatives advised you
that you have been admitted to citizenship in the Russian Soviet
Government? A. ISTot Soviet Government, but Provisional Gov-
ernment.
Q. Provisional Government? A. Yes.
Q. Well, that is the Government of Lenine and Trotzky? A.
No, the government of Prince Luvoff.
Q. Do you recall just what one of your relatives advised you
that you had been thus admitted to citizenship there? A. I was
advised that I was a subject of the armistice —
Q. My question is if you recall that one of your relatives gave
you that information? A. I do not understand the question.
Q. You say you got the information from a relative ? A. Yes.
Q. Now, who ? What one ? A. What one ? My sister.
Q. And was that contained in a letter? A. Tn a letter, yes.
Q. Have you that letter? A. Not by me, l)ut 1 have it, yes.
(\. Can you j)roduce it? A. Ves, 1 can.
(\. An<l will you produce it ^ .A. Yes, certainly.
(J. Now, you seeiu to be uncertain as to what month t A. Yes.
(J. I take it, then, that you have never received any official
information on the sul)ject ? A. Well, you sec liow it comes —
Q. Now, you know what I nu>an l)v '' ofHeial inforniaticni,"
<lo vou not '. A. \'es, sir: I received othcial infoi-mation.
40
Q. Well now, whom did you receive that official information
from? A. I received it already during the Soviet government
regime.
Q. Whom did you receive it from ? A. From the present Soviet
government.
Q. And in what form? A. In the form of a document stating
that I am a Russian citizen.
Q. And where is that paper ? A. That is here.
Q. That you can produce ? A. Yes.
Q. Well, that fixed the month, did it not ? A. Yes, it does.
Q. So that you can fix the time to a certainty ? A. Exactly,
yes.
Q. And can you produce that })a.])er ? A. Yes, sir, I will.
Q. Now, going back to the explanation which you read, which
you say was prepared by your counsel who was interested in
your libel suit, was this so-called explanation intended to in any
way affect these actions that are pendii)g? A. No, not at all.
Q. Merely because you or they thought there might be some
misunderstanding about the effect of your testimony ? A. No,
not at all. You see. my libel actions are based upon the state-
ments of several ]iewsj)ai)ers that I admitted, during the last
hearing, that I am here in this coiuitry to support the American
revolution, which 1 deny most emphatically, and I deny it at
the present moment, too. This libel action is based exclusively
on those statements in those ]iews]3apers.
Q. You think, then, 1 take it, that a man who would come to
this fountrv for the puryios? of overthrowing this government
would be committing a wrong? A. Certainly; that is exactly
my ];os.ition.
Q. And if he Avas charged with lieing interested in any such
scheme, when it v/as not true, you think that he would be entitled
to some damages to his i-eputation and standing in the comnninity ?
A. Absolutely, yes.
Q. No matter what his ])eliefs were in relation to the form
of our government ? A. Yes.
Assemblyman McElligott. — Were those statements which were
made l)y the newspapers deductions from your testimony, or
were thry given as a quotation from your testimony ? \. The
deductions wliicli were made in tliat ])aper, and by some other
people who made the deductions, are simply products of an
un1)alanced mind.
41
i^. Well, (lid the ii('\vs|);i])('i's inisiiuotc you in any way ^ Was
ilicic >:(»nu'thiiii;' said in the ncwsjjapors wliich yon did not say
liere at tills meeting^ A. Certainly; it was said that I am heie
for tho jnii-poso of overthrowing this government.
Q. Well, did the newspapers assume to quote yon in tliat
r(^s])eet, or was it an inference from wind you Inn] said ^ A. It
was simply a statement.
{}. \\'(>11, yon do not contend that th(^ n('wspa|)ers mis(piot(>d
you ^ A. .\hsolnle]y they mis(pn)t(<] me, my intentions and m\-
words.
Q. Jn spile of that, tlu^ oidy correction you make to the recoi'd
in regard to one or two very im])ortant things — A. Those news-
])aj)e!\s did not contain my statements which are in the record.
^fr. Stevenson. — You stand hv your statements in the record,
do yon not ?
The Witness. — Certainly.
I>y the Attorney-General :
Q. ]\Ir. Martens, I want to ask you a few questions as to your
knowledge of the Russian bonds that were in force at the time of
the formation of the Provisional government — and I mean by
that identifying it with the reign of Lenine and Trotzky ? A.
Russian what ?
Q. Bonds. A. Yes.
Q. Do you know how many bonds were issued by the former
governments, or how many are outstanding against Russia? A.
You mean foreign bonds ?
Q. Yes, such bonds as were sold largely in the United States,
do you not ? A. Yes. I know only of two bond issues ; one was
made by the Imperial Russian government, $50,000,000, and
another one was made In- the Provisional government, as far I
remember it — also fifty.
(}. So there were $100,000,000 in those bonds in force at the
time of the formation of the Soviet government? A. Yes.
Q. And you know as a fact that those bonds were sold quite
extensively in the United States? A. Yes.
Q. Now, what action, if any, did the Lenine and Trotzky gov-
ernment take in relation to those outstanding obligations? A.
The Soviet government ofFcn-ed, on several occasions, to pay these
bonds.
42
Q. Well, offered to pay them how ? A. To negotiate about the
method of pajTnent and to pay them.
Q. Is it not a fact that they repudiated every financial obliga-
tion of the former government ? A. "No, it is not true.
Q. It is not ? A. 1^0.
Q. That you know of your own knowledge? A, Yes. If you
will permit me, I will tell you more about it.
Q. Well, then, I will let yow tell what you know about it, of
course. A. Well, the former obligations of the Imperial gov-
ernment were repudiated by the Congress of Soviets, and the
government of Soviet Russia was given the power to repudiate
them at any moment officially. This power was never used by
the Soviet government. The Soviet government offered, on many
occasions, to come to an understanding with the Soviet Congress
in regard to the pa^Tuent of the bonds.
Q. In what way and upon what terms ? A, There are many
terms possible — to pay the debts. The country is not in position
at present, but they make methods so possible to adjust a
settlement.
Q. But you mean by settlement to pay less than the face of
them ? A. No, to pay interest or to engage a concern of bankers
to take over the debts or in any other way.
Q. What particular information have you which is reliable
that the Soviet government has ever in any way admitted or been
willing to pay interest or assume the financial obligation of these
bonds, in any way? A. I have an official paper from the Soviet
government telling me to offer to the American government and
to some concerns interested in the question of debts the settle-
ment, so I did.
Q. Have you that paper? A. Yes, I have it.
Q. Can you produce it ? A. I could not produce the papers
of the Soviet government without having the permission of the
Soviet government.
Q. You have such paper ? A. Yes.
Q. Have it in your possession ? A. Yes.
Q. So that we may have no misunderstanding about the record,
you decline to produce it ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What financial institution did you acquaint with the fact
that you had such authority from the Soviet government ? A.
Well, I had informal discussions with some people who are
connected with these financial institutions, but it did not come so
far that it could be called official negotiations.
43
Q. ^^'ill you t<'ll uic who it was? A. Well, I tried to approach
the National City Bank.
Q. Xatioiial City Bank ( A. Yes, sir.
i}. Whom did you see at the Xational City Bank in relation
to the matter? A. I did not see any of the officials of the
National City Bank, but I saw some people who were interested,
who held connections with the bank.
Q. Tell me who they were. A. Well, I don't think I could
tell you at the present moment before seeing the correspondence,
but 1 will give you all information concerning it gladly after T
look through the files.
Q. And would you be prepared to do that — to-morrow morn-
ing, you think ? A. To-morrow morning.
Q. ]^ow, the official notification from the government which
advises you that you had been accejated as a citizen of the Russian
Soviet government, how did you receive that paper ? A. This
particular paper I received by mail, if I remember right.
Q. Is there any way, by the examination of the paj)er it:-;elf,
that you can refr(Ksh your recollection °o that you can be positive
about it ? A. Well, I think T can be refreshed, yes.
Q. Among the various things that T am asking for, would that
1)0 too much to have you look up between now and to-morrow
morning? A. ^o.
Q. Outside of the bank you have referred to, did you make any
suggestion of your government to care for these outstanding obli-
gations through other banking institutions ? A. We ai-e trying to
organize here a concern, a company which would lake care of all
these matters.
Q. My inquiry, so that we won't get off the track, that's all,
my iiicpiirv is what other institution you attempted to commu-
nicate the desire of the Russian Government to ])ny the obligations
of these bonds you have referred to? A. T did not refer to any
|)articular banking institution. My idea was to organize several
hanking institutions and one big concern who couhl tak(» care of
some big financial transactions.
Q. Of course, the financial transactions, so far as these bonds
a)"e concerned, consistc^d of an obligation on the j)art of sonu^
IJussian Government ? A. Vcs.
(^. And They had already had the money, sonic Itussian Gov-
ernment had already Inid the moncv ? A. Yes.
44
Q. And of course if they were ever paid they would have to be
2:)aid by Ru.ssia ? A. Certainly.
Q. And there is no organization or combination of capital in
this country which would help that in any way? A. Oh, yes, it
could help in many ways. Now, you know, Mr. Newton, that
ervQvy country in Eurojie is bankrupt now, the financial bankruptcy
is all over Europe, not excluding England, Germany, France and
also Kussia, and to make some financial arrangements it is neces-
sary to have the assistance of the bankers and it is my idea to
get the assistance here in the United States of America.
Q. Of course, the obligation upon those bonds now is princi-
pally in the payment of the interest, isn't it ? A. No, the bonds
of 1919 are due now, I think they are due in June of this year.
Q. Were they short term bonda ? A. Yes,
Q. There are some obligations of interest on these bonds which
have been out and unpaid for some considerable period of time?
A. Yes, sir. It is my idea to pay all these debts, if the political
and economic negotiations will proceed in a satisfactory way.
Q. You are very certain that any information that I have that
the Lenine and Trotzky government absolutely repudiated the
linancial obligations of their country on those bonds is not so ?
A. Not so, no.
Q. And you are positive as you can be from information which
you have that they are desirous of making some arrangements to
pay those old obligations ? A. Yes.
Q. Notwithstanding their o})position as to capitalized govern-
ment or anything else ? A. Exactly.
By Senator Walters:
Q. General, may I ask him whether he is conscious of the fact
that his statement may accelerate the purchase and sale of these
bonds in this country at this time?' A. AVhat ?
Q. I ask whether you are conscious of the fact that your state-
ment might accelerate the sale and purchase of these bonds at this
time ? A. When I made the statement I didn't think about it.
Q. That carries with it that efPect ; now, are you in position
to make such a statement to the public of this country that will
create a confidence or accelerate the purchase and sale of these
bonds ? A. I can make a statement to the American public that
the Soviet Government is ready at anv moment to negotiate the
45
pjiyiiient of all foroii2,ii debts iiicludiii^i; the debt.; wbicb were
Hoatcd here in ibe United States.
Q. Have you an oHicial coniinnnieatidn lo that effect i A. ^ es,
s i r.
Q. Wonkl you mind fnrnisliiiii; \\\o Cuinniittee with that, with
a ('0])y of that official comnmnicalion t A. Yes, sir; certaiidy.
Q. rpou what action of the Soviet (rovernment is that founded ^
A. It is founded on direct communications I received from the
Soviet Government and also from sevei-al offers made to allied
governments — - —
Q. You misunderstand ray question; who is the responsible
Soviet, or what is the responsible Soviet Government ? A. It is a
national executive committee of the Soviets,
Q, There exists no longer a representative body or what we
term in this country a legislative body? A. Yes, certainly it
exists. The legislative body of Russia is a Congress of Soviets.
Q. Is that Congress the responsible government or is the execu-
tive committee the responsible government? A. The Congress is
the responsible government.
Senator Walters. — Then I ask you whether the formal com-
munication which you have is founded upon the action of the
formal government of .Soviet Russia ?
The Witness. — Yes, sir.
Senator Walters. — I beg your pardon, General, for interrupt-
ing the examination.
^Fr. Stevenson. — Mr. Martens, isn't it one of the principles of
the Russian Communist party that the capitalist should be ex-
propriated ?
The Witness. — Well, gentlemen —
IVTr. Stevenson. — Well, answer the qu(\stion.
The Witness. — I cannot answer it yes or no, without giving
more explanation.
Mr. Stevenson. — Well, isn't it a fact that the Communist prin-
ciple is that the capitalist should be expropriated ?
The Witness. — It is a principle of every Social partv, not only
the Communist, but every Social party to establish a Social gov-
ernmont in every country which is based upon common property
for all.
46
Mr, Stevenson. — Has not Lenine stated that one of your prin-
cipal objects at the present time is the complete expropriation and
suppression of the bourgeoisie and capitalism?
The Witness. — You are presenting the case too one-sided.
Mr, iStevenson. — I am asking you the question.
The Witness. — 'No, I deny it.
Senator Walters. — I would like to ask another question : It
is one of the ])rinciples of the Soviet 'Socialistic government that
there is a distinction between the proletariat and the capitalist ?
The Witness.- — Yes, sir ; there is.
Senator Walters. — That there is no substantial, inherent right
in property ?
The Witness. — Yes.
Senator Walters. — That pro])erty virtually belongs to the com-
munity and that each shall share in the so-called property ?
The Witness. — That is the Socialistic view.
Senator Walters. — l^ow. that is carried to the extent that no
class shall accumulate as against another class ?
The Witness. — Whether that is so or not, is that what you
want to ask me ?
Senator Walters. — Is it one of the fundamental principles that
no class of persons shall accumulate property as against another
class ?
The Witness. — Yes, sir.
Senator Walters.- — If that should happen in Soviet Russia the
distinction between the propertv in the hands of the poor and the
property in the hands of the rich would immediately be destroyed ?
The Witness. — I should not say immediately.
•Senator Walters. — Eut that is the principle, that it should be
destroyed ?
The Witness.— Yes. . . ^
47
Senator Walters. — If a class in Russia were to control a bond
issue of Russia, the moment the bonds woukl come into the hands
of the particular class of people, that would become capitalistic
under vour detinition of the principle '.
The Witness. — No, sir.
Senator Walt(>rs. — How do vou tlu>n distinguish between those
who accumulate and those who have not?
TIk^ Witness. — -Permit me to make a little exphination.
Senator Walters. — Certainly.
The Witness. — Now, you see, you probably d€ not know that
in Russia money as such is not confiscated by the Soviet Govern-
ment. Every capitalist may have millions of money, he would
not be touched. The only thing that would happen to him
would be that he would not get interest for his money deposited
in the banks.
Senator Walters. — You don't want his money to become pro-
ductive ?
The Witness. — Yes, we don't want his money to become for
the exploitation of other people.
Senator W'^alters. — Well, isn't it fundamental that you do not
desire his means to become productive?
The Witness. — All means must become productive and Russia
is at at the present times straining every nerve to get all means
jiroductive.
Senator Walters. — In other words, his money shall be apjdied
to the benefit of Russia without any result in benefit to him ?
The Witness. — Money as such is not productive.
Senator \A'alt('rs. — Woiihl your Soviet prinei])le applied to the
j'ccuiinihitiou of Ru.^sian 1)onds in this country lead your country
to refuse to pay on the ground that the capitalistic class in this
country had accumulated or had acquired those bonds?
The Witness. — The Russian Soviet Government has nothing
against — nothing against capitalists in this country. All they
want is to make a compromise with capitalists in this country.
Mr. Stevenson. — Is not that a temporary comj)romise?
48
The Witness, — JSTo, not at all.
Mr. Stevenson. — I show you a paper and ask you if you
recognize it ?
The Chairman. — Are you through with your examination,
General ?
The Attorney-General. — No, no ; I have not started.
The Witness. — It looks like a lot of laws and regulations of
the Soviet Government, but I am not sure that it is.
Mr. Stevenson. — I wish to offer this in evidence.
(Received in evidence and marked Exhibit 307.)
Mr. Stevenson. — This is a photostat of official Document 'No.
8 of the Soviet Government, Section 112. I will read a trans-
lation :
"Decision. 112. About the assignation of two million
. roubles for the needs of the international revolutionary
movement.
" Taking into consideration that the Soviet power stands
on the foundation of principles of international solidarity
of the proletariat and the brotherhood of the toilers of all
countries, that a fight against war and imperialism can lead
to a full victory only on an international scale.
" The Soviet of the Peoples Conunissaries considers it is
necessary to come to the assistance of the left international
wing of the labor movement of all countries with all possible,
and among those with pecuniary means, absolutely inde-
pendently from the fact whether these countries are at war
with Russia or in alliance, or are maintaining a neutral
condition.
" With these aims the Soviet of the Peoples Commissaries
decides to assignate for the needs of the revolutionary inter-
national movement for the disposition of the foreign repre-
sentatives of the Commissariat for foreign affairs two mil-
lion roubles.
" Chairman of the Soviet of the Peoples Commissaries VI.
TJljanoff (Lenin) — "
Mr. Stevenson, (Addresi-ang the witness). — That is Lenine,
fnn vou tell me ?
49
The Witness. — Yes, that is Lciiiiie.
^ir. Stevenson. — Can you tell uie what Jate ^
Tho Witness, (Examining the transhition ). — 1 Jon't know
whether the translation is made true, but anyhow^ it looks like a
translation of a decree of the 2;5rd of December, 1,017. If you
remember, gentlemen, the time, if yo.u know the circumstances
which were connected with this decree, you will immediately
understand that it was an offensive measure against, chiefly, the
Imperial German Government — not the Imperial, but the present
(ierman Government, yes, and the Imperial, too, which was menac-
ing the existence of Russia at that time.
j\Jr. Stevenson. — How about all countries'^
The Witness. — About all c()iuitri<>s. nothing said. Russia had
mast to do with the German Government at that time. It was
December, 1917, I repeat — not, at some time —
]Mr. Stevenson. — Just a minute. Coming back to the proposi-
tion of the position of the SovifM (Jovernment towards the capital-
ists and capitalism, Nicholas kenine speaks for the Russian Com-
munist J'arty, does he not ^
rhe W^itness. — Yes.
^Ir. Stevenson. — 1 find in his work called '' The Soviets at
Woik '' the folhnving on page 10 :. " A New Phase in the Struggle
with Caj)italism. We have defeated the bourgeoisie, l)ut it is not
yet destroyed or even com])letely con(piered. We nuist therefore
resort to a new and higher form of the struggle w'ith the bour-
geoisie; we must turn fi'om tlie very simple problem of eontimiing
the expropriation of the ca])italists to the more com])lex and dif-
ferent problem — the problem of creating conditions under which
Hu' l)Ourgeoisie could neither exist nor conu^ anew into existence.
It is clear that this problem is infinitely more complicated and that
we can have no Socialism until it is solved.
(Page 10 of " The Soviets at W^ork," was received in evidence
and marked Exhibit No. 308).
-Mr. Stevenson. — That is correct, is it not?
The Witness. — It looks correct.
50
]\rr. Stevenson. — As a matter of fact the offer ap|)arentlY made
by the Soviet Government to pay the foreign bonds of the old
regime is a matter sim])ly to bring about temporary peace and
2ecognition of the Soviet Government, is it not ?
The Witness. — Yes, sir ; to bring a})Out peace, because Russia
is not interested in war but has to reconstruct economically the
country and cannot afford to spend all her energies with war,
which Russia hates.
Mr. Stevenson. — But in making such a payment on the old
regime bonds, it will be going against the principles of the Russian
Communist Party, would it not ?
The Witness.— K'o.
^Ir. Stevenson. — It would, would it not?
The Witness. — You are talking about purely theoretical things
and are referring them to some particular —
Mr, Stevenson. — Isn't it a matter of fact that the Russian
Communist Party is attempting to put the theoretical into
practice ?
The Witness. — Certainly.
Mr. Stevenson. — That is all.
The Chairman. — Xow. General, you may proceed.
The Attorney-General. — ^Ir. Stevenson read what you con-
ceded I understand to be the position of the Lenine-Trotzky Gov-
ernment in 1917 ?
The Witness. — Yes, sir.
The Attorney-General. — ISTow, do I understand you to say that
they have receded from that position ?
The Witness. — Yes, I should say.
The Attorney-General. — In other words, what I call it they
have reformed, in some respects?
The Witness. — Well, if you like to call it so.
The Attorney-General. — I say T would call it that.
The Witness. — Perhaps (laughing). /
51
Mr. Stevensou, — Leniiio took that saine position in 1918, did
hv n>)t, when he addressed his iii'sr letter (o AnnM'iean \V(n-kingmen?
The Witness. — 1 think that was also in 1!)18.
Air. Stevenson. — I think it was in 11)17.
The Witness. — 1 (h)n"t icnieinher.
The Attin'ney-GeneraL — What jinhlic ntterances of liis are
there to show that he has had a clianiic of heart (
The Witness. — Well, there is sneh a lot of talk ahout ])ropa-
fianda in other countries, 1 can only tell you that every i>'overn-
ment uses its propaganda in othci- conntries, if the nionient suits,
so it is not a secret if I tell that the rnited States (Joverninent used
to make propaganda in (x.M'niany during the war and most ]'a<lical
propaganda, socialist radic;d pro[)aganda, so the saine'thing did
Russia.
The Attorney General. — Of course, that is for war purposes;
that could be excused, wh(ni it could not be excused when countries
were not at war.
The Witness. — Exactly. The Soviet liussian government
applied ])ropaganda against all countries with whom it was at
war. We sent propaganda later to the English soldiers, the French
soldiers and the Italian soldiers when we were confro.nted with
them face to face in the trenches. Xobody can have something
against Russia for that, there is nothing against that propaganda.
The Attorney General. — A'ow, we hear a good deal from the
Soviet government in relation to a governnuMit which they call
a capitalistic government ?
The Witness. — Yes, sir.
The Attornev General. — What do you mean when you refer to
a government as a capitalistic goveniment (
The Witness. — Well, a government which is dominated by capi-
talistic interests and any capitalist countries where cajntalism is
developed and influential and has ])0\ver to dominate a situation,
has power to influence any public institution — I call that a capi-
talistic government.
The Attorney General. — And you call this goveniment, the
Unites States government, a capitalistic govei'nment?
52
The Witness. — Well, it is a democratic government.
The Attorney General. — Do you call it a capitalistic govern-
ment, under your definition of a capitalistic government ?
The Witness. — No.
The Attorney General. — What do you call it ?
The Witness. — A Democratic government, a democratic parlia-
mentary government.
The Attorney General. — And not a capitalistic government in
any way.
The Witness. — "A capitalistic government " is a vulgar form
of speech, which has a certain theoretical definition. We cannot
discuss all* of these theoretical questions, the Rand School will
explain you all the definition of capitalistic government.
Mr. Stevenson. — Does not the Rand School say this is a
capitalistic government ^
The Witness. — Let them say what they will.
The Attorney General. — You are not here to defend the Rand
School 1
The Witness. — No, sii'.
The Attorney General. — That is a job by itself? Now, I framed
my question to suit you, I thought I was asking you for your defi-
nition of a capitalistic government, which you gave me; is that
right ?
The Witness. — Yes.
The Attorney General.^ — Now, I ask you whether under that
definition you call the United States government a capitalistic
government ?
The Witness. — I repeat —
The Attorney General.— I leave *t all to yourself, your own
mind and your —
The Witness. — I mean if it is used in a vulgar way, it may give
absolutely a different impression. Capitalism as understood
theoretically is an absolutely clearly defined state of things. So,
53
ill this sense, I could call the United States governnient a ca])itiil-
istic government, and the English government also, a capitalistic
government, and the Gennan o-overnmcnt also.
Bv the Attorney General, —
Q. Under the definition which you have given yourself of
capitalistic govcninieiit, do you call the gDvoninient of the United
States a cai)italistic government ^ A. Vcs.
Q. Mr. Martens, does the value of a ruble vaiyf A. Yes.
Q. And what is the relative value now as compared with the
value of a ruble in 1917, can you tell me? A. In 11)17 a rulile
was worth, I think, 25 cents; now it is worth about (5 cents.
Q. How long ago was it that you learned that they were worth
six cents — that the value of a ruble was 6 cents ? A. I learned in
the papers, the quotations.
Q. They have been as low as 2 cents, have they not ? A. As I
understand, the Kolchak rubles went to one cent and half a cent.
Assembl^-^Tiian McElligott. — Would those Russian bonds be paid
in nibles?
The Witness. — No, in American money.
Assemblyman McElligott. — Tlioy were to be paid in American
money and then redeemed!
The Witness. — Yes.
Assemblyman McElligott. — Xot in rubles ?
The Witness. — No, of course not.
By the Attorney-General :
Q. I think it appears --but to get the angle of it — you were
furnished some credentials from the Russian Soviet Government
after you came to the United States ? A. Yes, sir, T was.
Q. What, briefly, are those credentials? A. Appointing me to
represent the People's Commissariat for Foreign Affairs lierc^ in
the United States.
Q. And that is the Lenine-Trotsky government ? A. Yes, sir,
if you prefer to call it the Lenine-Trotzky govornuKMit. I would
prefer to call it the Soviet government.
Q, Well, I am not particular, just so that we understand what
we are talking about — Sf)viet government, you said ? A. Yes.
54
Q. Xow, how long after the organization of the Soviet govern-
ment were tliose credentials issued to you '( A. I think about
fifteen months after the establishment of the government.
Q. And that would be about what time? A. About Januarv,
1019.
Q. January, 1919? A. Yes.
Q. And received by you here in New York ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How ? A. Received by messenger.
Q. Do you object to telling me who the misssenger was? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. You decline to tell the Committee who the messenger was
who actually delivered the papers ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why ? A. First of all, I am bound in honor not to tell who
it is ; secondly, all these matters refer to my communications with
the Soviet government, which I regard as privileged.
Q. Were the papers sealed ? A. Y^es, sir.
Q. Do you know whether or not the agent who delivered them
to you knew what was contained in the package that he was de-
livering ? A. Yes, he knew about it.
Q. Where are those particular papers now? A. Those particu-
lar papers are in the State Department at Washington.
Q. And how long have they been there ? A. I sent them, as
far as I remember, the 15th of March, 1919.
Q. And yon sent them to the State Department, or to some
particular person? A. Addressed to Mr. Lansing.
Q. The Secretary of State ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you receive any acknowledgment of the receij^t of the
papers from Mr. Lansing ? A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you receive any acknowledgment from any representa-
tive-of the Secretary of State of the receipt of the papers ? A. No,
I did not.
Q. And you have no personal information that they were ever
received at Washington ? A. Well, as far as I know, there is no
doubt that the papers were received.
Q. Did you ever talk wdth Postmaster-General Burleson on the
su])ject ? A. No, I did not ; but it was stated by one of the officials
in the State Department to one of the newspapers — I think it
was the New York Times — that the papers were received.
Q. You say in the New York Times a statement purporting (o
come from the Washington correspondent that the papers had
l)een received ? A. Yes, sir.
55
Q. i\ji(l that is the only information you have on the subject
as to whether or not they had been thus received ? A. Yes, sir.
The standpoint of the IState Department in regard to the matter
is that as long as the Soviet government is not recognized, the
representative of tiie Soviet government is also n«t recognized as
such.
Q. Who told you that ( A. On several occasions Mr. Lansing
and other geutlem,eu from the State Department expressed them-
selves publicly.
Q. Well, have you ever had any talk at all with Secretary
Lansing on the subject i A. No, I have not.
Q. And did anyone tell you that Lansing told him the reason
you have just detailed ? A. Well, it was the general talk.
Q. Well, it was purely hearsay :? A. Yes.
Q, Well, now, you have never been over to Washington to see
whether those papers were on file there ? A. No.
Q. Have you been to Washington for any purpose ? A . Yes,
I have.
Q. When last ? A. About five months ago.
Q. Have you ever been there but once 'i A. Only once, yes.
Q. Only once? A. Y"es.
Q. Did you attempt to see the Secretarv of State '^ A. I'^es,
I did.
Q. You did not get an audience with him 'i A. I did not at-
tempt it officially.
Q. Well, I did not say anything about "officially." You at-
tempted to have an audience with the Secretary of State ? A.
Yes.
Q. And you did not succeed ? A. Yes.
The Chairman. — You say you did not?
The Witness. — No, I did not.
The Attorney-General. — There was a little question as to the
meaning.
By the Attorney-General :
Q. Now, you were claiming recognition from the State De-
partment by reason of being the Ambassador of the country that
you were representing? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are you familiar with the usual formalities in the jjresen-
tation by an Ambassador of his credentials to our government ^
A, No, sir, I am not familial' with those things.
56
Q. Well, did you ever hear of any other duly accredited am-
bassador sending his important documents to Washington hy mail ?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you ever take any pains to find out from those who
knew the usual method of the presentation of such important
papers'^ A. I don't know how to answer you.
Q. Did you take any pains to find out ? Did you make any
inquiry of anybody who would know what the form was of pre-
senting papers of that character, how they usually are presented
to our officials ? A. When I received my papers, the first thing I
did was to sit down and write a memorandum to the State Dei>art-
ment explaining my purpose.
Q. You did not answer my question. A. Yes, I will answer
it — and all I cared about was to explain to the State Department
what I am and what for I am here^ and send these papers asking
the Secretary of State to give me an interview. That is all I did.
That is all I cared to do.
Q. ]My question is — if I have made it plain — if you made
any inquiry of anyone who knew what particular form was usually
pursued by the Ambassadors — those representing foreign coun-
tries — in the presentation of their credentials to the State De-
partment in Washington ? A. No, I did not make any inquiry.
Q. You wrote Lansing a letter, then, before you sent those
papers over there ? A. I sent my letter with these papers.
Q. You sent your letter with these papers ? A. Yes.
Q. And to that you never had any sort of acknowledgment from
the State Department ? A. No.
By Assemblyman McElligott :
Q. Is there a representative of the old Eussian Imperial Gov-
ernment at Washington to-day — the And^assador of Russia — is
he still in Washington ? A. Not any representative of the Im-
perial Government, but a representative of the Revolutionary Gov-
ernment of Kerensky.
Q. What is his name? A. Bakhmeteff.
Q. He is a resident of Washington now? A. Yes, as far as I
understand.
Q. And what authority has he in regard to Russian matters?
A. No authority whatever.
Q. Well, did he protest against your introduction and the re-
ceipt of your papers in Washington when they were sent there,
do you know ? A. I don't know.
57
Q. Have you had any connection with him in any way? A.
No, not at all.
Q. Well, has he any standing in Washington as the representa-
tive of the Ixnssian Government at the present time? A. As far
as I know, he has.
Q. Well, he is recognized, is he? Is he recognized hy the
United States as the rei)resentative of Russia in the United
States? A. Yes.
Q. He is the recognized representative? A. Yes, but as a
representative of what, nobody knows.
Q. But he is recogniziMl as such, is he not? A. Xot one lawyer
in the woi-ld will ex])lain the nature of Mr. Bakhmeleff.
Q. 1 did not ask about any lawyers; I simply asked the fact of
whether he is recognized. A. T don't know.
Q. He is recognized by this government as the re])resentative of
Ivussia ? A. Of Russia, or maybe Siberia — I don't know.
By the Attorney-General:
Q. Well, he was there as the duly accredited representative of
the Russian Government before this change in the form of their
government ? A. Yes.
Q. And has continued to stay there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And there is no other repi'esentative of the Russian Govern-
ment, so far as you know, in this country, excepting the one in
Washington and yourself as the rejjresentative of the Russian
Soviet Government ? A. Yes.
Q. Yon say yes, you mean you two are the only two who are in
ajiy wa,)' representing the interests of Russia ? A. Yes.
Q. And of course u]) until now you have received no recog-
nition as the Ambassador of your country from the government
of this country ? A. Xot yet, no.
(}. These pajx-rs were sent on to the Department of State about
the middle of March, 1919 ? A. Yes.
Q. Had you already opened an office here? A. Yes, I imme-
diately {>])ened an office at 299 Broadway.
(^. Before you scjit these papers on ? A. No, sinmltaneously.
(^. What had been carried on in the office that you opened at
L*99 Broadway before you established your headquarters there?
A. It was the Russian Information Bureau.
Q. Xuorteva in charge of it? A. Yes.
58
C^. liuw long had you kuowii him ^ A. Since the end of 1918.
Q. And you came here — so that we won't be confused in our
dates ^ A. January, 191G.
Q. And what had you done in this country from January,
1916, down until the time you received this appointment as the
representative of the Russian Soviet Government in March,
1919? A. I was acting as the representative of a big Russian
steel firm.
Q. Did you have an office? A. Yes, I had an office at the
beginning in the Hotel McAlpin, and then I haven't had any
particular office.
Q. How long did you have an office at the Hotel McAlpin as
the representative of this steel company ? A. About a year.
There was a gentleman by the naine of Mr. Gibson who was at
that time the representative of this firm, and when he left at the
end of 19 IS I was representing the firm.
Q. Were you under pay ? A. Yes.
Q. From what company ? A. From Demedoff Cont Sandonoto.
Q. Now that was a Russian corporation ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And their business was in Russia ? A. In Russia ; yes, sir.
Q. Whou!. did you deal with in this country; who were you
endeavoring to make contracts with ? A. I was buying for this
firm.
Q. You were buying? A. Yes.
Q. Buying products here ? A. Yes, sir ; machinery.
Q. Did you actually buy machinery ? A. Oh, yes, quite a lot,
and shipped it on to Russia.
Q. That was before the organization or formation of the Soviet
Government ? A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you receive money from this company ? A. Yes.
Q. And monev outside of vour monthlv or weeklv wage ? A.
Yes.
Q. And expenses ? A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any sum of money of this company on hand
at the time of the receipt of the papers from the Soviet Govern-
ment a])])ointing you the ambassador? A. Yes, I had about
$20,000.
Q. Now did you use any of that money in the organization of
your bureau ? A. No, not a cent.
Q. And did you then stop the employment — did you cease then
to be employed by this Russian corporation in the purchase of
machinery or products of any kind? A. I practically ceased
59
because no shipineiit was })ossil)le to Kussia, but 1 had outstand-
iug orders which 1 paid by and hy. That is all that 1 have done
for this firm.
Q, You say you had about $20,000 on hand from this company
at that time ( A. Yes, sir.
Q. What became of it ? A. I spent it.
Q. I just asked you if you spent any of the money you had on
hand ? A. But not for the bureau ; you asked me if I spent it for
the bureau ; I spent it in paying for orders for this firm.
Q. You spent it by paying for things for which you had con-
tracted ^ A. Yes.
Q. Were they shipped ( \. No, they were not shipped.
Q. They are not shii)})ed yet 'i A. No.
Q. Now do you know what became of the company after the
Soviet Go^'ernment was organized ^ A. Y'^es, I know.
Q. Taken over by the Soviet Government, wasn't it ? A. No,
it was partly destroyed by the Kok'hak bands and Czecho-Slovaks,
and now it is under the jurisdiction of the Soviets.
Q. Have they made any denunid for the shi})ment of the
macliinery or products that you purchased with this $20,000 ? A.
They didn't mention it.
Q. As far as you know thc^y don't know anything about it? A.
No.
Q. My information came that you had stated that you mingled
this $20,000 with your own money, or with the Russian Soviet
money that you had received. A. No, it isn't true ; I can prove it.
Q. I say possibly I am mistaken about my information, but
if I have been so inforriied, that isn't the fact? A. It isn't the
fact, no.
Q. Is your Bureau still at ii)^ Broadway? A. No, it is 110
^Vest 40t'h Street.
(}. And when did yon move from 299 Broadway to the new
(juarters ^ A. 1 think it was A])ril of this year.
Q. So you actually moved from there before you received —
A. No, that was March.
Q. You didn't move ? A. About a month later I moved.
Q. What office force have you in your new quarters? A. I
ha've about 30 men working.
Q. Consisting of clerks and stenogra])liers? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many clerks ? A. About eight clerks, ten stenogra-
phers.
60
Q. What are the duties of the other employees? A. Why
my office is divided into separate departments, commercial depart-
ment, publicity department, economical department, statistical
department, and technical department.
Q. Any legal department 'i A, A legal department. Each
department is in charge of a gentleman.
Q. Who reports to you? A. Yes.
Q. And are responsible to you for the conduct of the various
departments over which they preside? A. Yes.
Q. And I take it that you assume full responsibility for the
acts of the heads of these departments ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, to go back a moment to the date of the receipt of
your credentials in March, which you say were delivered to you
by a special messenger, did you receive any other communication
in the form of letters or other documents at that time ? A. Yes,
sii, I am receiving from time to time.
Q. No, no, I am back now to the date when you received your
official announcement of your appointment as ambassador to the
Soviet government ? A. Yes.
Q. By the same messenger who delivered those papers to you,
did you receive any other }>apers or documents ? A. Yes.
Q. And among them were there instructions; did you receive
instructions? A. Yes.
Q. From the Soviet govei'nment ? A. Yes.
Q. And you have those now ? A. Yes.
Q. x\nd you could produce them if you desired to ? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And do you take the same ])osition with those papers that
you did with tbe other? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And decline to |)roduce them for tlie inspection of the
Committee? A. Yes, sir, unless my government agrees to it.
By Assemblyman McElligott:
Q. How long would it take for you to get in touch with your
government to find out whether your govenmient would be will-
ing to disclose those documents or not ? A. About two months.
Q. About two months ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You would have to send an ambassador to your government
and would have to have him come back ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. ITov/ would your messenger go ? A. I decline to answer
that.
61
\>\ the Attoniov-CTpiieral :
Q. Whv do you deeline to give the Coininittce the iiiforniatioii
as to the way a messenger \\nould reach your country ? A. I will
(>x])lain it, J\lr. Xewton. Because it is not within the scope of an
investigation of this (^onnnittee.
Q. Is that your owni reason ( A. Yes, sir.
Q. In other words, you don't think it is any of their husiness,
io he perfectly plain, so we will understand ? A. It is not within
the scope of the investigation of this Committee.
(,). Wlio told you that ^ A. Well, I know what this ronunit-
tee is for.
Q. Did somehody tell you it was not any business of this Com-
mittee how you connnunicated with your own government,
whether it was open and above board or secretly ? A. JSTo, I told
myself.
Q. You told it to yourself? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Xone of your legal staff gave you that opinion as a lawyer ?
A. I have also the o})inion of my lawyers.
Q. They agreed with you about that ? A. Y^es.
Q. Is there any objection to telling us what particular one of
your lawyers concurred in your judgment on that proposition?
A. I shouldn't care to tell that.
Q. Don't want to tell ? A. N'o.
Q. Aren't ashamed of his advice ? A. 'No, I am not ashamed ;
I think the advice is quite right.
Q. But you don't want to tell us which one of them it was?
A. T think all of them.
Q. Was it Weinstein — you said you didn't care to tell ? (No
answer.)
(). Will you give the Committee a list of your staff of lawyers
up to date? A. Will I give it?
Q. Yes, the names of them. A. Yes, certainly.
Q. As a matter of interest, I don't suppose it is of any great
concern; I would like to have it. A. T^ow?
Q. Yes, the names of them ; can you do it offhand ? A. Yes.
The Economical and Statistical Diepai'tment is in charge of Prof.
Hourwich.
Q. Don't misunderstand me ; I asked you for your staff of
lawyers, up to date. T may take that up step by step as I ask
some questions about the particular workings of your ofEce.
A. My lawyers are Mr. Hillquit and Mr. Recht.
62
Q. Morris Hillqiiit ? A. Yes, and Charles Recht.
Q. I thought you told me this morning that you had three
lawyers; did I misunderstand you? A. Well, officially Prof.
Hourwich is helping me as a lawyer, but his official capacity is
not as my lawyer, but as manager of the statistical department.
Attorney-General Newton. — Mr. Chairman, it is suggested
that we take our recess at this time.
The Chairman (Mr. Martin). — The Committee will take a
recess until 2 :15.
(Recess until 2:15.)
AFTERNOON SESSION — 2:35 P. M.
The Chairman. — The Committee will come to order. You may
proceed. General, with the examination of Mr, Martens. Is Mr.
Martens here?
The Attorney-General. — He is here.
I>y the Attorney-General :
Q. Mr. Martens —
The Witness. — Mr. Chairman, will you allow me to explain
why I declined to surrender certain of my papers ?
The Attorney-General. — Some explanation beyond the one you
gave this morning?
The Witness. — Yes.
The Attorney-General. — Yes, I am going to let you explain.
The Chairman. — I did not hear what you said.
The Attorney-General. — The witness wants the privilege of
making a further explanation why he declined to produce some of
his papers. I am inclined, if the Chairman is willing, to permit
it, and will give him very great latitude.
The Witness. — I declined to do it on the ground that it has
been held by the United States Supreme Court, in the matter of
the Pacific Railroad Commission (32 Federal Reporter, 241),
63
that Congress cannot compel the production of private books and
papers of citizens for its inspection, except in the course of judi-
cial proceedings; and it has been explained, in the same decision,
that an investigation of a legislative committee is not a judicial
])roceeding, I am advised by counsel that the pov^ers, as a Com-
mittee of the Xew York Legislature under the Constitution, are
no broader than the powers of a committee of the United States
Congress. Notwithstanding this privilege, I have produced for
Tlie inspection of your Committee all my books and papers relating
to my own activities in the State of New York. I insist, however,
on my privilege under the decision of the United States Supreme
Court, insofar as my correspondence with my government is
concerned.
By the Attorney-General:
Q. Who prepared that statement for you ? A. My lawyers.
Q. And at their suggestion you ask the privilege of reading it
into the record ? A. Yes, sir,
Q. They did not read you any provision of the Code of Civil
I'rocedure of this State, did they ? A. I do not know what you
mean.
Q. I hold in my hand what is supposed to be the law of this
State, the Code of Civil Procedure, which defines certain law and
practice. Did counsel call your attention to any provisions of this
Code in answering the proposition that you have just discussed?
A. Xo, Mr. Newton.
Q. Well, wnll you make a little minute on your papers there
and ask them to read section 656 of the Code of Civil Procedure,
and ask them if they do not want to advise you to-morrow to
change your mind. A. (Witness makes note as requested.)
Q. About how much is the payroll, per week, of your office?
A. About $1,200.
Q. And does that include your own compensation? A. Yes.
Q. And has that l)een about the average since March 15th?
A. Since April.
Q. Since April? A. Yes, sir.
Q, And what is the source — or from what source do you get
the money to carry on this office? A. From the Soviet govern-
ment.
Q. All of it ? A. All of it, yes.
Q. Have you accepted contributions from any other source?
A. No, I haven't any contributions.
64
Q. N'ot a dollar ? A. 'Not a dollar.
The Chairman. — How much was that payroll ?
The Attorney-General.— $1,200 a week.
By the Attorney-General:
Q. Now, have you had any other expenses except the payroll of
your office force and the rent '( A. I had exj)enses in connection
with the publication of our papers, '' Soviet Russia."
Q. Are there any other expenses of your organization there
except the publication of this paper and the payment of the rent
of your office and the office force 'i A. No, that is all.
Q. Including yourself, of course? A. Yes.
Q. Who fixes your compensation? A. I myself.
Q. Yow have never had any arrangement with your govern-
ment as to how much you should receive? A. No.
Q. You take what you think your services are worth ? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And you take it from the money that has been furnished by
the Soviet government? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How do you receive these moneys from the Soviet govern-
ment ? A. It is sent to me direct.
Q. Well, in cash ? A. In cash, yes.
Q. Regular money? A. Regular money.
Q. And by messenger, I take it ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And in what sums ? A. In sums up to about twenty to
twenty-five thousand dollars.
Q. At a time ? A. Yes.
Q. And the total up till now has been about what ? A. About
sixty to seventy thousand dollars.
Q. When did you receive the last money .' A. About five weeks
ago.
Q. Do you know whether or not there is any more on the way ?
A. Why, I don't know. I hope there is.
Q. And you have no way of knowing it until it is actually
handed to you just how much is eoniing, or how, or when? A. No.
Q. Will you tell me who handed you any one of these amounts ?
A. No, I can't tell you, Mr. Newton.
Q. What? A. I cannot tell you.
Q. You do not mean you cannot tell; you mean you decline to
tell? A. Yes.
66
(^. And for the same reason you. have given in your refusal to
answer other inquiries which have been made, which you have re-
fused to answer i A. Yes, sir.
Q. In other words, your refusal to imswer that and similar
([uestions is based upon the proposition that you are the duly
accredited representative of the Soviet government ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And really stand in the same position as though your govern-
juent had been recognized by this countiy ? A. A es, sir.
Q. Although, as a matter of fact — there is no dispute about it
— there has been no such recognition 'i A. Not by the United
States Government; but the I'nited States Government did not
express itself.
Q. Well, they have never, to your knowledge, in any way rec-
ognized the Russian Soviet Government ? A. No, they have not.
Q. And you have taken their absolute silence on the subject as a
declination to so recognize your Government, have you not?
A. No, not exactly.
Q. Well, have you taken their absolute silence on the subject
as an acquiescence of recognition ^ A. I have taken it that the
moment is not opportune to deal with the Soviet Government.
Q. That the officials in chaigc have not yet had nerve enough
to decide the (piestion one way or the other ? A. I don't know
whether they have had nerve enough or not, but the fact is they
have not expressed themselves.
Q. And you have been willing to accept the refusal to act at all
as a possible conclusion that they might favor your government ?
A. T hope they will favor it.
Q. You ho]ie they will, but do you accept their refusal to act at
all as an indication that they might recognize vour government?
A. Yes, T do.
Q. And that is the only hope you have? A, I have several
other hopes.
Q. You have other hopes ? A. Yes.
Q. What are they ? A. The whole political situation of the
world ; the business negotiations which are being conducted now
lictween my government and other governments.
Q. Well, do you think that the action of any other government
would influence our government here ? A. It is my heartiest
wish.
Q. T understand that, but do you have any real hope of it ; is
your wish founded on any real hope? A. Yes.
3
66
Q. Of course, the old saviu^ii, 1 assume, a[)plies there, of " If
wishes were horses 'i " A, I feel about the same, except that it
is a little bit uiore thau horses.
Q. This money, when it comes to vou from the representative
of your government, as it is lunided to you, is it in cash i A. It
is in cash, yes.
Q. And have you ever made a deposit iu any bauk, in cash, as
high as twenty thousand dollars ( A. Yes.
Q. When? A. I don't remember the exact date, but I have
had in my liank at times about twenty to twenty-five thousand
dollars.
Q. I understand that, but that is not the question. I want to
know if there was ever a day when you went into any l)ank in New
York and deposited tweuty thousand dollars in cash at one time?
A. No, not at one time.
Q. What is the highest sum, or highest amount, yon ever
deposited at any one time? A. 1 thiidc about ten thonsand
dollars.
Q. And at those times von had larger sums upon your person?
A. Yes.
Q. And yon carried the cash around with yon rather than to
make the deposits? A. I probably carried it in my safe deposit
at the bank.
Q. What is yonr reason in taking, say, $20,000 from your
government in cash, putting $10,000 in the bank and keeping the
other $10i,000 on your person or in your safe deposit box, if you
had a reason? A. Well, no particular reason, but I am keeping
always as much money as I a])proximately need for a week or two.
Q. You pay most of your obligations by check, do you not ?
A. By cheek.
Q. So that money which you keep in your pocket or keep in
the safe deposit box you didn't use for current expenses ? A. No,
I did not.
Q. The reason you have given me isn't a very good reason, is
it? A. Why?
Q. The reason you just gave me isn't a very good reason in
answer to my inquiry ? A. The money is just as safe in my safe
deposit as in the bank. Tt doesn't give me any interest.
Q. It is just as safe in your pocket if some of these New York
fellows don't find out you are carrying it around. A. I don't
carry it in my pocket.
67
Q. Where is your siit'c deposit ]n)\ ( A. iMiuitablc Trust Coiu-
pauy.
Q. And have you any lariic sums of cash in that now ^ A.
Xot now.
Q. How much wouhl say otl"-hand that you have on hand in
cash in your safe (h'posit box ( A. At the present moment, noth-
ing.
(j. What was the hisl suiu of any amount tlial you had in tlie
l)ox^ A. About $15,000.
Q. And when was that ( A. A few months ago.
Q. Did you take it all out one time? A. Yes — no, gradually;
excuse me.
Q. Did these lawyers that you have hired, that you have
mentioned here, know al)()ut that, about the cash ? A. The
lawyeriS?
Q, Yes. A. What has it to do with the lawyers ?
Q. Doesn't the money you have got have any relation to the
hiwyc^rs which you hire^ A. 1 don't understand the question.
(^. Xow you have already testitied to the amount of money that
you had received from your government uj) to August ? A. Yes.
Q. You were examined over at the Attorney-GeneraFs office
and gave them some figures over there? A. Yes.
Q. Did you have the figures of the amounts at those times cor-
rectly in your mind ? A. Approximately.
Q. March, 1910, $20,000? A. Yes. '
Q. April, 1919, $20,000^ A. Yes.
Q. May, 1919, $10,000? A. Yes.
Q. July, 1919, $20,000? A. Yes.
Q. So that made a total that you testified that you had received
from the Soviet Government up to possibly and including July, of
$70,000? A. Yes.
i}. Xow how much did you tell me you had received since? A.
$20,000.
Q. So that the sum total of the moneys you are willing to
swear you have received from the Russian Government is about
$90,000 ? A. About $90,000, yes.
Q. And the very last item which you received was how long
ago? A. About five or six weeks ago.
Q. Haven't you received any in November? A. November,
no.
Q. Not any in November? A. No.
68
Q. Do you know whether or not anyone in the Bureau has
received any money from any source from the Russian Soviet
Government except you? A. No, nobody receives any money.
Q. K obody receives any money except you 'i A. Except me.
Q. If I understand you correctly, every dollar of this $90,000
has been handed to you by some agency of the Soviet Government
in cash ( A. Yes.
Q. And all in American money ? A. Xo, not quite. Some of
it was in foreign money.
Q. How much of it was in American money ? A. About a;
quarter of this money was — three-quarters of this money was in
American money.
Q. About one-fourth was in — A. Swedish, Danish, Norwe-
gian and Dutch.
Q. But all in the form of cash. A. All in the form of cash.
Q. What do you do with the foreign money? A. I deposit it
in my bank.
Q. You dei:)Osited that as cash and it was accepted by the bank
as cash ? A. Yes.
Q. With the American valuation of the particular money?
A. Yes.
Q. What form was the American money, gold, silver, bills?
A. Bills.
Q. And the demoninations, large or small ? A. Large denomi-
nations.
Q. How large, the largest ? A. Not less than $100.
Q. And how much larger, if anything? A. Up to a thousand
dollars.
Q. Some thousand dollars bills ? A. Some a thousand dollars.
Q. Do you give any receipt to the person who makes the deliv-
ery ? A. No, the receipts are not necessary.
Q, Whether they are necessary or not, you don't give any?
A. No, I don't give any.
Q. And there is no acknowledgedment on your part to your
government of the receipt of a single dollar of this money ? A. I
re])ort to my government for every cent of money I am receiving.
The Chairman. — You are what ?
The Witness. — I am reporting to my government about every
cent of money I am receiving.
Q. How do you make those reports ? A. I am sending reports.
69
Q. By mail ? A. Partly by mail, partly by messenger.
Q. When you send a report of the expenditure of your money
by mail, where do you send it 'I A. I decline to answer it.
Q. Will you tell me whether or not you send it directly to your
own country? A. No, I cannot send it directly to my own coun-
try because my own country is blockaded and T could not send any-
thing directly. Everything is sent indirectly.
i}. An<l T am to understand that there is some friendly agency
somewhere outside of the United States ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And outside of youi- owji country who transmits those
letters? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Or cormnujiications ? A, Yes, sir.
Q. And you decline to tell the Committee or to tell me what
agency that is? A. Yes.
Q. And what is your ]-eason for that? A. Same reason, 1
regard my communications with my government as privileged.
(J. Has it ever been suggested to you that communications of
tiiat sort would be a violation of the law of this land ? A. I know
a little about it. but this kind of communications are not viola-
tions of any laws of this country.
Q. Are you aware that there is some statute, or was some stat-
ute during the war, which is yet, theoretically at any rate, exist-
ing against communications of that sort ? A. The war was actu-
ally finished the 11th of November, last year.
Q. Where did you get that information ? A. Everybody knows
it, I suppose.
Q. Don't you know as a fact that theoretically at any rate that
we are still at war with Crermany? A. Only theoretically.
Q. Theoretically? A. Yes.
Q. And that is legally at war with them from any legal stand-
|)oint ? A. Xo. President Wilson declared that tlie war is finished.
Q. Doirt you know that he declines to lift the ban on liquox
because we are still at war with Germany? A. I don't know it.
Q. Do you object to telling me how you recognized these messen-
gers who brought these vasts sums of money to you ? A. They are
bringing letters from the Soviet Government.
Q. Were any of them acquaintances of yours? A. No.
Q. A total stranger would walk into yonr office here and hand
you an envelope with $20,000 in it ? A. Yes.
Q. Afiike any inquiry of you to identify you in any way. or di<l
I'c just take it for griinted that yon were the reju-escntative of the
Soviet (Government iind linnd von $20.0(H» ^ A. ^'es, il is done.
7iO
Q. Wanted no receipt '( A, Xo.
Q. Didn't ^et any ^ A. No.
Q. Do those roj^resentativcs wlio have been sd kind to you in
the delivery of these moneys make any a|)|)lication to iiPl hack to
Russia or to i>et out of this countiy i A. I don't know.
Q. Have you ever been asked jo intere.st youi'.-clf in fui-nisliini;
passports for tliein ? A. Xo.
Q. Have you ever intei-ested yourself in gettini* pass|)oits for
anybody to leave this counti'y i A. Xot at all.
Mr. Stevenson. — Is that true (
The Witness. — Certaiidy it is true.
Q. And you haven't in fact been in any way instrumental in
procuring any passports for anybody ( A. Al)S()lutely.
Q. Either to get in or to get out of this country t A. Absolutely.
Q. Do you know what became of any one of these men who
delivered these sums of money to you, after they tinished their
business with you ? A. I don't know.
Q. Ever call on you again ? A. Xo.
Q. Xever came around and asked ynu to enteitaiii them in any
way? A. Mr. Xewton, I have to again decline to answer your
question. You go again to the same point.
Q. Xo, that is general, I could not identify any of them if I
saw them with you. A. When th<w have done their duty T don't
care what they do.
Q. Well, it is a fact, as soon as a man walks in and hands you
$20,000 in an envelo])e from the Russian Soviet Government and
says goodby, and fades away, and from then on you have lost
interest in him, and so far as you know he has in you ? A. Abso-
lutely.
i). Were they Russian peo|)le who made these deliveries of these
funds? A. I decline to give the infonriation.
(}. You are willing to admit that no Irishman ever came in and
handed you $20,000. aren't you ? A. Xo, no Irishman.
The Chairman.- — I think that the record should show that in
each and every case where the witness declines to answer that he is
instructed to answer by the Committee and has refused.
The Attorney-General. — I haven't yet asked the Committee.
The Chairman. — Then I withdraw that.
71
The Attoniey-Clciicriil.- - 1 h;i<l this in mind, tluit when L .not
tlic rocorti, if theiv wci'c ;ui,v ([uc^ions which 1 doomed of import-
;inoo onougii, s;iy to-morrow, I would call tlio witness' attention
directly to-morrow and ask tiiat the (juostion ho diroctcd liy the
(^hairman of tlie ("(»mmirtoo to him s])ociHcally and take his re-
fusal foi' such i)ur|)osos as the Committee may want it to lie us(>d
hy the Committee hereafter.
Q. Xo\v you have had at least live separate deliveries of inouej
in tlio manner in which you hav(> d<'scrihod from the Soviet Gov-
crniiicut ? A. Yes.
Q. Were there more than live ^ A. No, five, that's all.
Q. And hy a ditforent a^cnt each time ^ A. Each time.
Q. And do you now know wiiether or not anyone of the five
are within the United States^ A. I decline to answer that.
Q. I haven't asked you whore they were, I have asked you
whether or not you know' tliey are here; do you decline to answer
that ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why do you decline to answer that? A. T liavo reasons to
do it.
Q. What are your reasons^ A. My reasons are 1 am bound ])y
honor not to disclose their whereabouts and w^ho they are.
Q. I haven't asked you where they are, I have given you the
broad country? A. Tt amounts to the same.
Q. Do you know the whereabouts of any (mo of the five? A.
Ves, I know.
Q. You do know ? A. Yes.
Q. Now do you think that the brinfjin<i; of any one of these sums
of money to you in the manner in w^hich you have described in-
volves any criminal act ? A. No, not at all.
Q. And you are not in any way refusing or declining to answer
l)y reason of the fact that the act would be a criminal act? A.
-Xot at all.
Q. Or a violat ion of any of the laws of oni- land ? A. Not at all.
Q. Or that it wonhl involve moi-al turpitude? A. Yes.
Q. What? A. Xot at all.
Q. But you stand purely on the ground that yon think it is a
pi-ivilogod act ? A. Yes.
Q. When did you receive the last comnuinication from your
Soviet government ? A. About a week ago.
Q. Was that by a K])ecial messenger? A. No, by mail.
(^. .\nd that mail was sent through some other countiy? A.
^'es. sir.
72
Q. It was not sent direct? A. It was not sent direct.
Q. And remailed to you bv the agency which is employed ? A.
Yes, sir.
Q. And is that the same agency which you employ in answering
your government ? A. Yes.
Q. And every one of the comniunicatioais that have gone, written
communications that have gone by mail have gone to the same
center and by that center have been forwarded to the Soviet gov-
enmient ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And tlie answer has ])een sent by the Soviet government
through that center and by that center to you ? A. Yes.
Q. And that is true in reference to all the communications that
have been sent by mail 1 A. Yes.
Q. When was the last communication that you received by mes-
senger ? A. About six weeks ago.
Q. And that was the money? A. Yes.
Q. There has been none of this money entrusted to the mails as
you described ? That is all covered, as I understand it, by mes-
senger? A. Yes.
Q. Now, when you get your money in the way you describe, do
you get by the same source and by the same messenger other
written communications? A. Yes.
Q. And written directions? A. Yes.
Q. Have you advised your government that up to now this
country has through its representatives in Washington declined
to recognize the Soviet government ? A. Yes, I did.
Q. And have you advised them as to that subject more than
once? A. More than once.
Q. When last did you tell them ? A. Two weeks ago.
Q. And have you had any communications from your govern-
ment in answer to your infonnation that the government here was
not recognizing you ? A. Yes, I have.
Q. So that you know that the Soviet government is advised and
understands that up to now this countiw has not recognized you?
A. Yes.
Q. That it has not recognized your government or recognized
you as its representative? A. Yes.
Q. I suppose all of these communications form part of your
records, that is, you have not destroyed any of them ? A. !N'o, no.
Q. And they are all in existence and under vour control? A.
Yes.
73
^W Mr. Stevenson:
Q. You stated before that you had destroyed some of your gov-
ernment conimuiiieations? A. Some that were unimportant, I
have.
Q. Were any of the communications from your government
unimportant I A, Well, perhaj)s some.
Q. What were the contents of those that you destroyed — how
many did you destroy ? A. All the official communications I
am keeping in my control, but I am receiving of course quite a
lot of letters of a private character from my friends in Russia
at the same time, and I have no interest in keeping those letters.
Q. Why ? A. Well, not to give you, Mr. Stevenson, an oppor-
tunity to twist every word which is written.
Q. Is there anything in those letters which would be subject to
being twisted? A. Yes.
Q. And that is why you have destroyed them ? A. I don't want
to give you an opportunity to twist every one of them.
Q. And is that why you have destroyed them? A. Yes, that
is why.
\i\- tiie Attorney-General:
Q. Well, what you mean, 1 take it, is that the contents of them
could be construed by one person in a certain way and by another
person in another way? A. Not at all, — by Mr. Stevenson, who
is a master of misconstruing everything.
Q. Oh, by one particular person ? A. Yes.
Q. So you thought it safer to get a lot of them out of the way?
A. Yes.
The Attorney-General. — Safety first. You must have ridden
oil the Erie Jiailroad.
Q. Well, of the official documents which in any way gave you
instructions as to your actions as representative of the Soviet gov-
ernment, none of these have been destroyed ? A. No, sir.
Q. And they are in your control and if you were so inclined
you could produce every one of them? A. Yes, sir,
Q. I think you told me you had not received any money from
the Soviet government in November? A. No, I did not receive
any.
Q. Did you receive any money from any source to be used by
you in your enterprise in November? A. No, I did not.
T4
Q. I show you a check book which has been hauded to me,
which purports to be your check book ou The Public National
Bank of Xew York, and ask you if these items over here are in
your handwriting. A. In my cashier's handwriting.
Q. Who is the cashier ? A. Mr. Hubsch.
Q. Is he present ^ A. No.
Q. He is in the city < A. Yes.
Q. You recognize that item as being his handwriting^ A. Yes.
Q. 11-1-1!) — from what is that ^ A. Stockholm.
Q. What is that the name of, a Russian city ( A. Xo, a
Swedish city.
Q. And $4,000? A. Yes.
Q. What does that indicate ( A. It was sent to me.
Q. Well, then, in your statement to me that you received no
money from any source in Xovember, you were mistaken about
that ? A. Oh, what date is that ? The first of Xovember I did
receive that.
Q. So how did that money come ( A. In the form of a draft.
Q, And by mail ? A. Yes, by mail.
Q. To you personally? A. Yes.
Q. And this page here indicates that on the first day of Xovem-
ber, 1919, that $4,000 was deposited to the credit of your account
in this Public Xational Bank of Xew York ( A. Yes.
Q. Xow, do you recall any other items upon reflection that you
received in Xovember from any source ? A. Xo, that is the only
item I received.
Q. Well, whose handwriting is this in here, under date of the
8d of Xovember? A. (Witness examines check book.) (Read-
ing) : '' Check for Soviet Russia, Metro])olitan Xews Company."
Paid over by a publication.
Q. This is a deposit, isn't it ^ A. Well, they sent us a check
and we deposited the check in the bank.
Q, So you did receive that item ? A. Oh, yes ; $845, I omitted
that.
Q. It is only $205. A. Yes, $265.
Q. And whom do you say that came from ? A. From the
]\Ietropolitan Xews Company.
Q. Where are they located ( A. Here in Xew York; they i\re
our distributing agents.
Q. That is money that they received from the sale of your —
A. Our paper.
75
Q. — vour liussian jjupcr, wluit do vou call it ^ A. "Soviet
Jiussia."
Q. What is this $i:j().5U lueau there ^ A. Probably a check
iiiunber; I don't know.
Q. Oh, no; it is l-'JO blank 50. A. Or a bill number; I don't
know.
Q. You cannot tell '. A. I cannot tell, but it is the Metro-
politan ^'ews Company.
Q. A'ow, under the same date there is a check from what?
For $1,000 — what is that ^ A. Dr. Mislig.
(^. \\'ell, who is he '. A. A friend of mine.
Q. Does he live here in Xew York? A, Yes.
Q. What is he iiivina,' you a check for a thousand dollars for?
A. It is a personal loan.
Q. That is, out of this Soviet money that you received from
your government you loaned him a thousand dollars ? A. No,
not I ; he loans it to me.
Q. Oh, he is loaning' this to you ? A. Yes.
Q. And you are putting it in with the Soviet government
money t A. Yes, I put everything in my bank.
Q. Well, this money in the bank idl belongs to the government
you represent, does it not '. A. No, partly my personal money.
The Chairman. — Is that a contribution or a loan I
The Witness. — A loan, and I paid it back, as a matter of fact,
partly.
By the Attorney-General:
{^. \\\ check ? A. By check, yes.
Q. Well, will you find me the check in this Iwok. let mo see
when you did that (han<ling check book to witness) '.
Mr. Bcrger.— Does Dr. ^[islig live up cm ^fadison avenue, Mr.
Martens?
Th<' Witness. — No.
By the Attorney-(reneral :
<l. Where does the doctor live^ A. I don't remember his ad-
dress, somewhere U])town.
76
Q. You had a friend who let you have a thousand dollars and
you don't remember where he lives? A. I have many friends
who would give me tens of thousands of dollars if I wanted it.
Mr. Berger. — Who are they i
The Witness. — All over America — but I don't ask it. That
is all.
Q. There is no other cheek book, is there ? A. Yes, I think
that is the one.
Q. On another bank ^ A. No, on the same bank.
(Witness examines check book.)
Mr. Stevenson. — You did not pay back the money before you
received it, did you, Mr. Martens ?
The Witness. — Just a minute.
(The witness continues examination of the check book.)
The Witness. — As far as I remember, I paid the $500 back.
By the Attorney-General :
Q. When did you do that A. I think soon after that. I don't
remember the dates.
Q. You gave them a check to his order ? A. I don't remember
exactly how I did it. I think November 6th it was.
Q. W^ell, on iSTovember 6th you drew out of the bank to your-
self $1,000 ? A. Yes.
Q. There is not anything on the books to show that the Doctor
got any part of that, is there ? A. No, I don't think so — yes, T
gave him $500 back, but I think in cash.
Q. Well, now then, some time in November? A. Yes.
Q. You say you think; that always arouses my curiosity a
little. A. I paid him $500 back, but I don't remember the day
or in what way I ]>aid him — cash or check th'cn, but I paid him
$500 back.
Q. And you cannot tell a transaction of that sort since the 6th
of November, where you were returning $500 of an obligation —
you cannot tell whether it was cash or a check or the form of the
payment? A. Well, Mr. Newton, I have many other things to
do, so this little point might escape my memory.
Q. You are pretty nearly as busy as the Attorney-General, I
take it ? A. Yes.
77
Q. Well, who is this doctor^ A. He is a doctor.
Q, J s he a regiihir doctor ^ A. Yes.
Q. What we call, up in the country, a " pill doctor," a medical
man ? A. ^'es, a medical man.
Q. A Russian ^ A. ^'es,
Q. How long have you known him ( A. I have known him
about three years.
Q. You got acquainted with him after von came here to A'ew
York^ A.^Yes.
(}. And visited him ( A. \'es.
(}. You lived at the siime j)l;ic(' ^ A. Xo.
Q. Where was he living when you visited liim i A. 1 p town.
Q. Well, that is soniewhat indefinite to us. A. I don't remem-
ber where he lived, but \ think it was 8oth street.
Q, How long since he has visited you? A. The last time,
about the end of the last year.
Q. Well who made the application for this thousand dollar loan (
A. I myself.
Q. How much money did you have on deposit in the l)anks
here the day he let you have that money? A. I don't remember.
Q. At least $19,000, did you not? A. What (
Q. You had at least $10,000 in cash on deposit in the bank on
the day he made that loan to you? A. No, I don't think it was
as much.
Q. Well $1.5,000? A. Where did you get this figure from,
Mr. Xewton?
Q. Well, having learned something al)Out declining to answer,
I accept one of your reasons. A. I don't understand your argu-
ment, ]\rr. iSre\\i:on.
The Chairman. — Would you sjieak more clearly?
Q. Yes. I want to ask you if, on the day of the borrowing of
this $J,000, you did not have at least, to your credit in tlie banks
in Xew York, $15,000? A. No, T did not have it, otherwise^ T
would not borrow this money.
Q. How much would you say was the least you had in the
l»iinks on the day yon boi'row(>d the $1,000 from him? A. i\Iaybe
a couple of thousand.
Q. What was the necessity for borrowing from your friend,
the doctor, $1,000 if you had $2,000? A. T had to pay salaries;
T had to pay for printing of paper.
Q. Has there been a day since the receipt of that $20,000 in
Mareli, 1019, when yonr hank balances here have not been more
than $10,000? A. Yes, on several occasions it was more than
$10,000.
Q. ]\rv (^nestion is if you will swear there is a day since that
$20,000 was deposited in IVfarch, 1019, when your daily balance
in the banks here has been less than $10,000? A. You are
mistaken.
Q, Xo, I am askinu' you to swear. A. I never told you that I
deposited $20,000.
Q. jSTo. T know you uev(M- did. T liave not said you told ine so.
I am asking you to swear to the fact. A. What is that ?
Q. T am asking; you to swear to a fact. A. What ?
Q. Well, what do you say was the least daily balance of cash
that you had in the banks of T^ew York since March, 1919 ?
A. The least?
Q. Yes. A. About $100.
Q. Did you have any in your pocket at the time when your
bank account ran down to $100 ? A. No. T had not, other-
wise T would have deposited it in the bank.
Q. Did you have any in your safe deposit box ? x\. I had not.
otherwise T would have deposited it at the bank.
Q. Did you eet this $1,000 from the doctor on the day that
you deposited it to your credit in the People's Xational Bank
of New York ? A. Yes. At the time T had not enough money
io pay my obi ig'at ions ; that is the reason why I borrowed this
money.
Q. TvTow, do you know what the bank book will show as your
balance of cash in the banks where you carry an account, on the
1st day of ?^ovember, the day of the deposit of this $1,000 that
you say you got from the doctor? A. 'Ko, I don't remember.
Q. Will you swear it was not more than $5,000? A. T think
not.
Q. Y(Mi think not ? A. T think it was not more.
Q. That is as strong- as you want to put it ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What other bank do you carry an account in ? A. The
State Bank.
Q. Do you carry any account in any other banks except the
Public National Bank of New York and the State Bank? A.
The Public National Bank of New York and the State Bank.
79
Q. Those are the ouly two you have had any hanking experi-
ence with by way of deposits '( A. The Guaranty Trust Company,
too.
Q. That was some time ago i A. Yes.
Q. I find a man here by tlie name of Adams. Who is he?
A. He is the manager of my teehnieal department.
Q. How much money have you paid Adams in November?
A. I think about $2,000.
Q. Does he get .$:2,000 a months' A. Xo, lie is not getting so
much. It is his expenses.
Q. On the 12th of IvTovemher did you make a deposit of cash
in tlie Public National P>ank of Xew York? A. Maybe; I don't
remember.
Q. Was tliat made by you ? A. Yes.
Q. Where did you get it? Where did you get this $1,000
from? A. I had in my hands some money.
Q. Well, two days before you drew out $1,000. Am I right
about it? A. Yes; that looks right (indicating in check book).
Q. 'Now, you told me, if T understood you correctly, that you
thought that at tlie time you got this $1,000 from the doctor, upon
the 1st of ^N'ovemlier, that your bank balance was dowm to $100.
Did I understand you correctly ? A. IXo ; sometimes it reached
$100.
Q. Well, how uuu'li was it on the day you got the $1,000 from
the doctor? A. T don't remember.
Q. Well, what is your best recollection? A, Maybe a couple
of thousand.
Q. If you had $2,000 in the bank would you be apt to go out
and borrow a thousand ? A. Yes, if I had to pay more than $3,000.
Q. Am I correct in the conclusion that your bank balance in
this bank on November 1st was $2,448.02? A. (Examining
check book.) Yes. probably it was.
Q. Whose -figures are those that are crossed out, $18,696.31 ?
A. That means that it was deposited — the red ink — adjusting
the totals — it does not mean that it was actually in the bank.
Q. W^ell, now, without any apparent deposit at all, from then
to the 3d of !N'ovendier, your bank balance shows $3,286.96, does
it not ? A. No. it does not. It is simplv the sum of all these
totals. It was the totals of all checks.
Q. Well, then, there is no way of showing from this book?
A. Yes, the difference.
80
Q. You cany the total deposits on one side and the withdrawals
on the other side '( A. Yes, on the other side.
Q. Then I have got you to say something that you did not
mean, w^hich I did not intend to do. I had you tell me that
your balance on November 1st was $2,443.02. A. No, it was not.
Q. Your balance on that day was $3,848.42? A. Minus
$2,443.02.
Q. What is that $2,443.02^ A. Here?
Q. Yes, the addition of those sums. A. Yes.
Q. On November 6th I find the withdrawal by yourself person-
ally of a thousand dollars; am I right about that? A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember what you did with that money ? A. .\s
far as I remember, 1 paid part of my debts and part for my own
personal expenses.
Q. Do you know a gentleman in this city by the name of Dudley
Field Malone ? A. Yes, I know him.
Q. Friend of yours ? A. Not a friend.
Q. Ever employ him for anything? A, Yes, 1 did.
Q. What did you hire him to do ? A. To help me in a com-
mercial transaction.
Q. What one ? A. I purchased some boots through his inter-
mediary and I wanted to organize for the shipping of goo<ls in^o
Soviet Russia from here.
Q. Did you get the boots ? A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you get them shipped ? A. No.
Q. Whom did you buy the boots from ? A. I forget the name
of the company.
Q. Now, was Mr. Malone employed to assist you in the pur-
chase of the boots or in using his influence to get permission lo
ship them to Russia? A. I used not his influence but his help to
arrange for shipment of goods for the amount of nine million
dollars into Russia.
Q. You made a contract for the boots ? A. It was not boots ;
all kinds of stuff, I made contracts, yes.
Q. How many different companies ? A. Two or three.
Q. And boots was one item ? A. Yes.
Q. What other article of commerce? A. Meats and canned
goods.
Q. The total amount you say was nine million ? A. Nine and
a half million dollars.
Q. Did you pay anything on it? A. No; to be paid in Petro-
grad.
81
Q. That is, you put the burden ou the companies from which
you contracted to make the delivery ? A. Yes.
Q. How was Ahdone going' to help you ^ A. Malone was my
counsel.
Q. Your counsel ( A. Yes.
Q. He was one of the law^yers that you did not mention this
morning when I asked you ? A. It was only for this particular
thing.
Q. What did you pay him for what he did? A. One thousand
dollars.
Q. That was by check on the 12th of September, this last Sep-
tember, 1910 \ A. I think it was.
Q. I show you the item. A. Yes, it was.
Q. Now, do you know as a fact that Mr. Malone has Ix-en s])eak-
ing, — he is an orator, isn't he? A. Yes, I know.
Q. Has been speaking for the recognition of Soviet Russia?
A. Yes. he has.
Q. Wasn't this thousand dollars paid to him for that service ?
A. No, Mr. Newton. T would prefer ^fr. ]\Ialone to answ(n- this
himself, but anyhow it was not expressly mentioned.
Q. Well, did he make speeches? A. Not in my behalf.
Q. In the interest of the recognition of Soviet Ilussia l)efore
he got this thousand ? A. Yes, on many occasions he mad(> tliem.
Q. Has he ever made any since he got that '. A. I don't re-
member any.
Q. The last time I think you and I luid a little visit was the
way the search warrant was issued and the autliorities or sonio-
l»ody took possession of some of the effects of your office ? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. I have forgotten when that was. A. Twelfth of June.
Q. Following that, what I think you termed a raid? A. Yes.
Q. You made some public addresses? A. Yes.
Q. In whidi you criticized the action of the authorities and
the Committee in that transaction!' A. 1 did not criticize; I
simply stated ptdilicly wlnit my duties are here and what I -mw
doing here.
Q. Whetliei- it lie criticism oi" not. at that time and on the
same platform ^Nfr. Alalone spoke witli you in relation to the
;^ubject, didn't he ? A. No, T don't think he spoke with me.
Q. Are you sure about it? A. I am almost sure about it.
Q. Has he ever spoken from the same platform with yon or
not of these problems? A. No, I never spoke with him.
82
Q. And if 1 have rceeived such iiifonnation of that, it is not
accurate ? A. 'No, it is not accurate.
By Mr. Stevenson :
Q. Do you remember a certain meeting, in Madison Square
Garden in June? A. After the raid, yes.
Q. Did Mr. Malone speak at that time ? A. No.
Mr. Stevenson. — I have the record.
By the Attorney-General:
Q. Do you know whether or iKjt Mr. .Mah)ne has organized a
corporation for the purpose of dealing with Soviet Russia? A.
i^o, not as far as T know.
Q. You have had no communication with him on any such
subject as that? A. I discussed it with liim on several occasions,
the shipment of goods to Russia, and his al)ility to organize some-
thing of this sort, but that's all.
Q. Did you knoAV he had made an effort or had actually organ-
ized such company or corporation ? A. Xo.
Q. Did you have a meeting on the same subject at the Wahlorf-
Astoria ? A. With whom ?
Q. A meeting in which you were ])resent at any rate ? A. T
was on many occasions at the Waldorf- x\stori a.
Q. On this subject of organizing a com])any to deal with Soviet
Russia ? A. No, I was not present.
Q. I^ever been present at any meeting in which that sul>ject
was discussed? A. In the Waldorf-Astoria, never been present.
Q. If there has been any meeting there to discuss such a sub-
ject, you know nothing about it? A. ISTo.
Q. Are Mr. Adams' duties confined to your Ts'ew York office ?
A. To the technical department of my bureau.
Q. Are all of the things he does done here in this city, or does
he go about in other places? A. No, he is staying here.
Q. Have you any branches of your office? A. Tn Detroit.
Q. Wlio is in charge of the Detroit office ? A. Dr. Rovin.
Q. What is his first name? A. I don't remember.
Q. Is he a Russian ? A. Of Russian extraction,
Q. Is he a citizen? A. Yes, he is a citizen.
Q. jSTaturalized citizen? A. Yes.
Q. Where did you get acquainted with him ? A. Tn Detroit.
83
Q. Has ihat Uceii iiis home tor sonic timc^ A. ^'os.
Q. Is ho a niodical man 't A. Yes, he is a bax;tei'iologist.
Q. How lon<i' have you had a hranch ollicc in I)(>troit ( A.
About four or tivo niontlis.
Q. How many eni|)h)y(>s in that dllicc ^ A. Only one. 1 think.
It is quite a small otfico.
Q. Doos the dootin- iict a snhiry ( A. Xo. he docs not.
(^. Are the otlicc expenses paid iVom your otfiee here ^ A. \ es.
Q. And the other enii)loyes, are the emj)loyes- whoever they arc,
outside of the doctor paid from your office here ^ A. Paid from
my of}ic(^ her(\
Q. Paid direct hy you ( A. "i^'s.
Q. By checks A. Yes.
Q. What is the n(>cessity for your office in Detroit^ A. My
idea was to interest the I)(»troit manufacturers in a Iraih' with
Soviet Russia. I intended to ])lace an order for fifty million dol-
lars with Detroit manufactur(>rs.
The Chairman. — What kind.
The Witness. — Foi- mot(U' cars and tractors.
Q. You haven't placed any such contract ? A. Yes, I have
placed some for a small amount.
Q. With whom ? A. I dcni't rememher the name of the firms,
hut I negotiated with the Ford ^NFotor Company and with several
others.
Q. You have negotiated hut you haven't actually bought any-
thing, have you ^ A. Xo.
Q. And you haven't actually hought a dollar's worth of any
product at all ? A. Yes, I did.
Q. Tell me what you have actually houaht and paid for ^ A.
I bought for about ten and a half thousand dollars rubber boots.
Q. Where are they ? A. Stored horo in TvTew York.
Q. Paid for? A.' Paid for.
Q. Whom did you buy those f rom ^ .V. I don't reinemliei- the
name of the Hrm, but from the checks you will iind out. Mr.
Xewton.
Q. You ])robably got a receii)t in >(»ur papers? A. Yes.
Q. Will you bring me that ? A. Yes.
Q. When did you make the purchase; T suppose the receipts
will show, probably? A. Yes. it will show.
84
Q. But you have known all the time that under present con-
ditions it was impossible for yovi to .ship or deliver to Russia any
single articled A. At the time I did make this purchase I had
hoped to send a ship.
Q. Yes, you had hoped but you have known all the time that
you could not actually make a delivery, didn't you. A. Cer-
tainly. That is the reason I could not buy for larger amounts.
Q. I^ow, you say you opened your Detroit office for the pur-
pose of interesting the manufacturers up there ? A. Yes.
Q. Was there any purpose in putting at the head of it a doctor ?
A. No, but he is a very capable man.
Q. He is a lecturer, isn't he ? A. Yes, he lectures sometimes.
Q. Weren't you more interested in having a lecturer who
would expound your county's rights than you were in making
prchases of commodities that were manufactured in Detroit ? A.
I was not interested in his being a lecturer, but I was interested
in his being first of all a capable man who will handle this job
thoroughly, and so he did.
Q. He had no special influence Avith any shipping interests,
did he ? A. ISTo, but he had quite an interest in Detroit, people in
Detroit knew him.
Q. Didn't you think that the employment of this doctor there
would give a little .standing in the City of Detroit to the Soviet
Government ? A. Just to the contrary, Mr. I^ewton.
Q. What ? A. Just to the contrary. He made quite a good
show in Detroit.
Q. I am afraid you don't understand me ; wasn't your purpose
in selecting tlie doctor to take charge of the Detroit office to
interest the people and get some influence there favorable to your
Soviet Government ? A. Well, it is my intention always to
interest as many people as possible.
Q. I have only made it now as far as the doctor is concerned
in Detroit; that was your purpose, wasn't it? A. Oh. yes; to
a certain extent it was.
Q. Did you ever borrow any money from Dr. Mislig ])ut once ?
A. Twice; once $500 and another time a thousand dollars.
Q. When did you borrow the $500 ? A. I could not remember
the exact dale; maybe a month or two ago.
Q. Ever |)ai<1 him anything exee])ting the $500. A. Xo, not
yet, it is still due.
Q. Did you ever give him a eheck for any sum ? A. Yes, I
think as far as I remember, I think I gave him a check for $500.
85
(^. Vuu never u\ve<l liim u[) to tlii.s 1st of A'oveinber iuiy
sum beyond $500, did you { A. Well, .Mr. A'ewtoii, 1 really dou't
remember but 1 owe him some money. The dates i don't remem-
ber. From these check bot)ks you will see exactly how the matter
stands.
Q. Would it be })ossil)le that you liad b()rrt)wed money from
the doctor and had forgotten it < A. So, not at all.
(^. Woubl it be possible that you could be mistaken several
hundred dollais in the amount ( A. AO. it could not be. Tie will
remind me.
Q. He will ^ A. Yes.
Q. 1 am going to in a minute — your recollection as you state
it here now is that before the 1st of Xovend)er the oidy money
transaction you hud with tlie doctor was the borrowing of $500?
A. Xo, boi'i'owing from him a thousand dollars and again iive
hundred <lolhirs. 1 j)nid him back live hundred dollars^
-Mr. ►Stevenson. — What is this doctor's first name?
The Witness. — I don't know.
Q. Xow, there is your thousand dollars on the rid of Xovember,
isn't there ( A. Yes.
(^. So you W(M"e mistaken when you thouglit that it was iive
hundred ( A. X(\ you w<*re mistaken. 1 tobl you that 1 ])aid
him back $500.
(^. I was not talking about tluit. 1 was asking how nmch you
received from him. You told me a thousand dollars at one time
and five hundred at another, and those were the only two items
you had ever borrowed fi'oni liim. Xow, am L right or wrong
about that < A. I owe him $1,500 altogether. That 1 remember
exactly. I paid him back- —
(^. 'J'hat don't ([uite answer my inquiry. You ha<l $1,500
from him all told and you have paid him $500. A. 1 still owe
him $1,500. When I took it and in what amounts I don't remem-
lier.
Q. Xow, let's see if we can clear our i-ecollection — A. Vou
can see it from the check book.
(}. I undcr.-taiiil that but I want to get your recollection; I
want to see if you are as good ;i nmn as 1 think you are; now
you got a thousand dolhirs from liini on the 'm1 of Xovend)er ^
A. Yes.
86
Q. Wiis that the hist money you horrowed from him:? A. Last
money 1 l)orrowe(l from him.
Q. And you have ])aid him in some form or another $500
since that time^ A. I think before that time.
Q. Yon think ])efore that time 't A. I think before that time.
Q. So when you looked through these cheek books and picked
out a thousand dolbirs that came to you ])prsonally — A. It was
a mistake.
i}. You think yon ai'e mistaken about that ( A. 1 think I am
mistaken.
Q. XoAV, how much money had you borrowed of the doctor
before this 3d (biy of Xove]ni)er, 1919^ A. I think $1,500.
Q. All told, $1,50^) before? A. Before.
Q. You keep raising the ante all the time. A. One second.
I owe him, as I told you on several occasions $1,500. I paid him
I think a thousand dollars back from a previous loan I made
from him so it means I paid altogether about $2,500, paid him
back $1,000, so I still owe him $1,500.
Q. When did you [)ay the thousand dollars ? A. T don't remem-
ber.
Q. Xo book account of it ? A. Yes, it must be here.
Q. Xo record of it ? A. Yes, it must be in the check book.
By the Attorney-General:
Q. Well, have you any other i-ecord or any accounting of the
financial transaction between you and the doctor except as shown
by the check books? A. Nothing, only these checks.
Q. Do you know whether the doctor has any record or not other
than this ? A. I don't know what kind of records he has.
Q. How did he let you have this money, by checks or cash? A.
Checks, I think.
Q. W^here did ^ou cash it? A. In my bank.
Q. Now I call your attention to an item in your check book
of September 25, 1919, M. I). Mislig, $1,000? A. Yes, from a
loan of $1,500.
Q. And now it comes to memory? A. Now it comes to
my memory; I had a loan from him of $1,500. Subsequently I
paid him $1,000 back, and on a second occasion I asked him again
to give me $1,000, so I owed him $1,500:
Q. Do these initials i-efresh your recollection as to his name?
A. I think
87
Q. .M. 1). i A. .\1. 1). is ;i iii(Hlic;il (l(K-ti)r.
Q. The M. 1). is not incaiit for his nctiuil iiiili;ils^ A. NO.
Q. Now you stated to me that there were hiiiitlivcls of pcopk^
who were willing to make loans to you of tiny sums into thou-
sands of dollars ; you volunteered that statement, didn't you '. A.
Yes, sir, I did.
Q. And you meant it i A. I meant it, sir.
i}. Have you adiuilly borrowed other sums A. Xo. I tlid
not.
Q. Whom have you in mind now who has oliered to lend you
sums of money junning into hundreds or thousands of dollars '.
A. 1 mean generally, that I have so many friends here who write
me very nice letters and promise me every kind of assistance; I
don't know whether or not they mean financial assistance, but
nobody offered me any moiicv and 1 ilid not ask it because I was
^\•('I1 jn'ovided with money.
(^. Have you any objection to giving the Committee here the
name of some of these people who made these generous offers \ A.
^N^obody made me offers of money.
Q. Xo, but they wrote you letters which made you believe that
they were willing to back you financially 'I A. Well, 1 have thou-
sands of letters of this kind, JMr. Xewton.
i}. Well, I don't want all of them, but the names of a few who
have been that generous with you? A, After this so-called raid
of the 12th of June, you had many of my letters, ^Ir. Xewton,
and from those letters you could see how the sentiment is. I did
not mention that they offered me specifically money, but 1 am
sure if I needed money I will get money.
Q. Well, 1 am afraid that these young nu»n sitting down here
will quote you as having said that there were large numbers of
j)e()])le who will lend you money running into the thousands of
(lollai-s. A. I (lid not say so, and 1 said, 1 am sure that if 1
needed money I can get thousands of peo])le to help me, but 1
don't nc('(i ;iiiy money.
(^. Well, then, if you said anything or volunteered any informa-
tion that there were a large number of people who had offered
or suggested that they were ready to fimmce your proposition to
the extent of hundreds or thousands of dollars, you did not mean
it i A. Xo, no, no, I did not say so, Mr. Xewton. I repeat again,
as I did on previous occasions, that nobody oft'ered me money or
financial assistance, but many people expressed sympathy to a
ijreat extent.
88
Q. Well, that sympathy was expressed toward Russia to you 1
A. Certainly not to me personally.
Q. And you did not mean to be understood in any way in your
answer to me, or your statement made to me, that there was any
particular person who in any way ottered to put up a dollar, only
this one doctor, that you borrowed $2,500 f rom ^ A, Yes.
Q. So if you did say any such thing you did not quite mean it 'i
A. No, I did not say it.
Q. Well, you say now, if you did — my recollection is a little
different from yours, though not much — you did not mean to be
understood that there are any such people who actually suggested
that they were ready with their money to help you with money?
A. No, I did not say it.
Q. Well, I say if you did say it you did not understand it in
that way ? A. Yes.
A.^;semblyman McElligott. — Mr. Witness, do you recall a Mr.
Sanderson as a contributor towards your cause ?
The Witness. — No, I do not.
Assemblyman McElligott.- — Do you know whether there might
be such a person among those who contributed money for the pur-
pose of your work '^
The Witness. — Mr. Sanderson, you say ^. No, I don't recall
him.
Assemblyman McElligott. — You don't recall the name?
The Witness. — i^o.
Assemblyman McElligott.— Is it jiossible that a man by the
name of Sanderson could have contributed in any way without
you knowing it ?
The \\'itness. — I don't think it is possible.
(}. Von know the names of all who have given you anything at
111! toward your work ^ A. Certainly, yes.
(}. Have you offered to give the Attorney-General a list of those
who have helped you in your work? A. Xobody helped me tinan-
cialiy.
Q. Nobody helped you tinancially? A. Xobody.
Q. Did you ever receive any money from any source whatever?
A. Except what my check book shows.
89
Q. Well, yuiir rlicck hook shows that vou (l('|)(tsito(l inoiiey from
time to tiiiic. A. It shows also if 1 ocf iiioucy from othv'r sources,
it shows clearly whorcfroin 1 am o-ettiiitr it.
Q. liut youv check book shows that at. certain tiin(\s you
(lepositeil (-(M'taiii sums of mou(n\ doesn't it ^ A. Yes.
Q. -Xow that money came fi'om your government '^ A. Yes.
Q. And only fi-om your i>-overnnu^nt i' A. ^'es.
(}. It ix'vei- came from anybody liei-e in the I'nited States?
A. !Xo. never.
Q. How did you receive yiMii' money, did xou receive it ])\
remittance or by x'ash ( A. In cash.
(). From your home lioveiaiment ( A. ^ es.
The Chairman. — That appears.
l!y .Mr. Stevenson:
(y .Mr. .Martens, you were asked hy th:' .\t torn(>v-(leneral
wlu'ther you had issued any ])asspoi'ts to anyliody ; wliat was your
reply ( A. 1 never issued passjxu'ts.
Q. Well, instead of issuing ])assports, has it be<'n your custom
to give letters to persons wanting to enter Soviet Russia ? A. Well,
sometimes, occasionally I have given letters.
Q. You have given letters to facilitate certain |jersous leaving
this country to enter Soviet Russia, have you not ? A, Yes, sir.
i). How many such letters have you issued '( A. AFayb? half a
dozen.
Q. Not more ( A. Xo, not more.
(}. There is to be a meeting of the Third IntermitiomU shortly
in Moscow, is there not i A. Xot as far as I know.
Q, Are you sure of that ( \. Yes.
Q. Well, haven't you as a matter of fact, given letters of intro-
duction to .such persons leaving this country as delegates to the
Third Internal iomd ^ .\. 1 never have.
Q. .\re you sure of that ' .\. .\bsolutely.
Q. Who is ('omrade .Minna .1. Dunn' A. .Minna J. l)unn?
Well, as far as I remember. T see a ])hotographic co{)y of a letter
I issued to a woman by the name of Dunn — sometimes ]:)eople
come to us telling me they are going to Soviet Russia, showing
me their passports, and I am giving them a letter in place of a vise
of the pa.'<sport ; so on several occasions, T tliiid< maybe five or six
1 iinos, T did it.
90
Q. You would only give it in special instances^ A. Xo, to
anvbocK- who is KoinK to Soviet Kussia.
Q. Well, did you give such a letter to -Mr. John Keed when he
left here i A. No, 1 did not.
Q. Are you sure of that '( A. -.Vbsolutely sure.
Q. Did he ever ask you for one. A. Xo, he never asked for
that.
(i^. Well, you are pejfcctly sure t A. Yes, perfectly sure.
Q. Vou ha\'e not been informed tliat there is to be a meeting of
tlu' Tliird International in ^loscow ( A. No, 1 thiidc you are mis-
taken. 1 did not know anything about it. There was a meeting
in March —
Q. Yes, but a convention — A. I don't know anything about it.
Q. Y^o.u have not been informed by ,your home government to
that effect^ A. No.
Q. Well, how many agents have you got that you employ for
carrying on your corres|)ondence with other countries^ A. Well,
you may ask difl'ei'cntly, how many agents the Soviet llussian Go.v-
erinnent has — they have a imnil)er, 1 suppose a Ing number.
Q. Well, how many are attached to your office^ A. Well,
nobody.
Q. Isn't it a' fact you issue credentials to your agents? A. No.
Q. You have never issued any credentials to your agents ? A.
What kind '( I issued credentials to some people whom I sent to
Detroit, or other places.
Q. But those you are sending outside of the country ( A. Only
in the form of lettei'S telling who they are and what places they
are going to,.
Q. No other form ( A. No.
Q. 'lust sini])ly a letter as identifying the person as being your
agent i A, Yes.
Q. Well, how many such letters have you issued ( A. Well, I
don't remember, three or four or five, I do not remember.
Q. Only three or four or five persons that are attached to your
office? A. They are not attached to my office, 31 r. Stevenson;
noliody is attached to my office.
By Mr. Berger:
Q. What is the right name of this Minna J. Dunn ? A. I
don't know.
Q. ^'ou know her ? A.I recollect giving her a vise and her
name I first saw on her passport when she showed it to me.
91
Q. Do you know her by auy other name? A. ]^o.
Q. Do you know any of her friends ? A. No.
Q. AVho is Comrade Strom i A. Where is he ?
Q. At Stockholm. A. A representative of the Soviet govern-
ment in Stockholm.
])y ^Ir. Stevenson:
Q. So anybody wishing to enter liussia, you give a letter of
iiitrodiictioji to Comrade Strom ^ That is the idea? A. Yes.
i}. And if you want to facilitate a person's passage you recom-
uh'ikI iiiin or her to Comrade 'Strom ? A. Yes.
Q. And in this ease of Minna Dunn, you did that, didn't you?
A. As far as I remember, I did.
Q. Well, do these agents to whom you have issued these letters
come into comnmnication with the Soviet government? A. I^o.
First of all, this Miss Duiui was not my agent. I deny that
absolutely.
Q. 1 did not say that. I refer to these letters you describe as
having been given to your agents, do they carry your communi-
cations to the Soviet government '. A. Well, it is the same ques-
tion about my communications with Russia; I decline to answer.
By Mr. Stevenson:
Q. On what ground ? A. On the same ground.
Q. I wish you would state it again. A. I consider my com-
munications with the Soviet government as privileged, and on this
ground 1 decline to give any information, about my messages or
communications.
Q. Do you keep copies of your official communications with the
Soviet government ? A. Yes.
Q. Do you keep the originals of your communications from
the Soviet government ? A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do von keep them in your office ? A. No, I do not.
Q. Yon do not keep them in your office? A. No.
Q. Do you keep them in your home? A. No, I do not.
Q. Where do you keep them ? A. In a private place.
Q. Where is that private place. A. I cannot disclose it.
Mr. Berger. — Why?
The Witness. — On the same grounds.
^fr. Berger. — State the grounds specifically on the record.
92
The Witness. — I regard my communications with Russia as
privileged and I decline to answer everything concerning those
communications and those documents.
By Mr. Stevenson :
Q. Well now, in (b-;i\viiig u\) tJie organization of your bureau,
you had a paragra])li which stated that secret documents should
he delivered from hand to. hand. What did that refer to? A.
Well, we have a very heautiful organization in our office; so we
had in mind some corresj)ondence with the State Department that
some people should not see; and we had in our constitution a para-
graph telling how to handle these kind of documents so that nobody
outside of the staif would see them, with the exception of people
who were handling this money.
Q. Well then, you had no secret documents? A. Xo, not at all.
Q. But at the same time, these official documents, you do not
even bring to your office, do youf A. ( Vrtaiidy not.
Q. Well then, they are secret documents, are they not ? A. Well,
I suppose they are secret documents.
Q. Is there anything in any of those documents that you are
afraid might be distorted ? A. I am not afraid a bit, Mr. Steven-
son ; but I would regard it as an insult to my government and
myself if I would show you these documents, and without instruc-
tions from my government I would not show them.
Q. Do you keep any of those documents on your person? A.
No, I do not.
Q. When you were last examined you stated that you kept
those documents at your home, did you not ? Did you change
them to some other place because you had told us you had kept
them at your home? A. Yes, I did, sir.
Q. So that you have changed the place of keeping those docu-
ments since" you were previously examined, is that correct? A. I
had these documents for a certain time on my own person, and
then I filed them for safekeeping.
Q. Do you keep them in a safe deposit box in the Equitable
Trust Company ? A. 'No, I do not.
Q. Did you take your money out of your safe deposit box in
the Equitable Trust Company subsequent to the date of your
examination here? A. I^To, before that.
Q. Did you not tell us at that time that you had moneys that
were not deposited in the bank, that you had in your safe deposit
box? A. I had some Liberty bonds, not cash money.
93
Q. Well, have xou taken tlidsc rrnui tlic l)ank.' A. Yes.
Q. You do not kcej) them in the safe deposit box any more?
A. No, I keep some.
Q. As a matter of fact, you have not been able to enter into
any substantial commercial transactions, have you, owing to the
conditions of transportation here:' A. Oh, yes; I entered into
(piite substantial connnercial rebitioiis with ])eop1e. and quite big
]>eople, here in America.
Q. Well, have they actually signed contracts with youf A.
Some of them have actually signed contracts.
Q. How many of them have actually signed contracts? A. I
think about a dozen of them, to the amount of twenty million
dollars.
Q. Would you give us the names of those firms? A. If you
wish, I can give you, tomorrow, a full list.
Q. All right, 1 wish you would, please. As a nuitter of fact,
one of your chief functions here is to seek the recognition of the
Soviet government, is it not ? A. Yes.
Q. And it is part of your office business to carry on propaganda
looking to the recognition of the government, is it not ? A. Yes.
Q. And is that what the major portion of your force is engaged
in doing at the present time? A. Xo, not the major portion; I
should say about 25 per cent of the people are engaged in this
kind of work.
Q. Well, did you not tell me previously that about 25 per cent
of your work was propaganda looking toward the recognition of
the Soviet government ? A. Well, what do you call "propaganda" ?
1 mean just now the ])ublicity work of our bureau engaged about
25 per cent — publicity woik — which consists of publication of our
])a])ers under the name of " Soviet Russia '' and the matter of
attending to statements of the press, and so forth.
Q. Well, is not the purpose of the ''Soviet Ilussia" to impress
upon the American people that the Soviet form of government is
a satisfactory and excellent foi'in of govcrnincnt. A. ^'es, it is.
(^. An<l do not a large nundicr of icprescntativcs or men
in your office lecture on the lecture |)latf"orms to that effect? A.
Xot quite to that effect. The aims of the publications are, first
of all, not pro])agaiula t)f the Soviet foi'iu of government, but the
spreading of the truth about Russia, to the counteraction of mis-
representations and false rejMirts about liussian conditions.
M
Q. You yourself have lectui'ed, Imve you not on the Russian
conditions? A. Oh, yes, I did.
Q. You were going- to speak, were you not, at a meeting of the
Communist party on Monday, the 10th f A. No.
Q. Well, have you accepted ? A. Monday, the 10th ?
Q. Of I^ovember ? A, Yes, I had accepted.
Q. And were you going to describe the conditions of Soviet
Russia at that meeting? A. Yes.
Q. And your purpose was to enlist the interest of the audience
in Soviet Russia, was it not? A. Simply of the present regime
in Russia.
Mr. Stevenson. — That is all.
The Attorney-General. — Mr. Chairman, I move that we ad-
journ until 10:30 tomorrow morning.
The Chairman. — The Committee stands adjourned until 10:30
tomorrow morning.
(Whereupon at 4:35 r. m, on Tuesday, I^ovember 25th 1919,
an adjournment was taken until 10 :30 a. m., Wednesday, Novem-
ber 26th, 1919.)
95
MEETING OF JOINT LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE OF THE
STATE OF NEW YORK TO INVESTIGATE
SEDITIOUS ACTIVITIES
City Hall. City of New York,
Wednesday, Nov. 2«, 1919, 10:30 a. ^i.
Present :
Senator Walters,
Senator Mullan,
Assemblyman Martin (Vice-Chairman),
Assemblyman Pellet,
Assemblyman Jenks,
Assembhonan McElligott,
Senator Boylan,
Asseinblyniaii Burr.
Appearances:
Hon. Charles D. Newton, Attorney-General,
Hon. Samuel A. Berger, Deputy Attorney-General,
Archibald E. Stevenson, Esq., Associate Counsel.
Mr. Charles A. Hotaling, Sergeant-at-Arms.
LuDWUi (". A. K. JMaktkxs resumed the stand:
The Witness. — Mr. Chairnum, permit me to make a request
to adjourn the present hearing until ^I(in<hiy. I h;ive ari-anged
for some conferences with my hiwyers and want to discuss the
whole situation more thorouiihly and we need time. 1 could not
do it yesterday and couhl not do it today. So jirobahly Friday
and Saturday would l)e sufficient for me to go over the whole
ground again and maybe if you will |)ostpone the he;iring until
Monday it will suit my purposes.
The Chiiinnan. — 1 should have to take that up with the Com-
mittee, ^Ir. Martens. Monday is a very inconvenient day for the
))eoj)l(> ftdiii rp-Stale. 1 suggest in view of the request of Mr.
Martens tiiat we go into executive session 1o discuss the request. 1
should prefer Wednesday or Thursihiy.
96
The Attorney-General.— Would the 4:th of December be as con-
venient to you as Monday ?
The Witness. — The fourth is all right.
The Attorney-General. — That would give you three more days
if the Committte considers your request favorably. I am doing
that so that we will have that date in mind. Some of the mem-
bers of the Committee are busy men and they have appointments
for early in the week.
The Witness. — All right.
(The Committee then went into executive session.)
(After executive session the following occurred.)
The Chairman. — Mr. Martens, the C^ommittee have been very
anxious to get this work along as fast as possible, and we hoped
to conclude with you as near as possible to-day. You have come
here and made a very respectful and most sincere request for an
adjournment. We cannot, owing to our engagements, adjourn
until next Monday, but I think it is the sense of the entire Com-
mittee to be absolutely fair to you and to everyone else who comes
before us, and if it is agreeable to you and you desire, your exam-
ination can stand adjourned until the 4th of Decemlier at 10:30
o'clock, and you will be present ?
The Witness.- — Yes, sir.
The Attorney-General. — Tliat is a week from to-morrow.
The Witness. — The 4th of December.
The Chairman. — Is that agreeable to you ?
The Witness. — Yes, sir.
The Chairman. — Then we will suspend your examination until
December 4lli, at 10:.30 a. m.
07
MEETING OF JOINT LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE OF THE
STATE OF NEW YORK TO INVESTIGATE
SEDITIOUS ACTIVITIES
City Hall, City of New Yoek,
Thursday, December 4, 1919.
The Committee met pursuant to adjournment.
Frese7it:
Assemblyman Martin (Vice-Cliairman),
Senator Mull an,
Senator Boylan,
Assemblyman Pellet,
Assemblyman Burr,
Assemblyman MeElligott,
Senator Walters.
Appearances:
Hon. Charles D. Newton, AttorneyiGeneral,
Hon. Samuel E. Berber, Deputy Attorney-General,
Archibald E. Stevenson, Esq., Associate Counsel,
Hon. Frederick R. Rich, S|)cci:il l)o|uity Attorney-General,
^Ir. Charles A. Hotalinii-, Serc;eant-at-Arius.
(The Committee wont into executive session.)
The Chairman.- — The Att<nncy-(Jen('ral has a statement to
make in relation to the result of rhe c(.nterence with the Com-
mittee.
Mr. Berger.— Air. Cliairnuui, 1 appeared before Justice Green-
baum, at chambers, at 10:15 this morning-, as did also Dudley
Field Malone and Charles Kecht, attorneys for L. C. A. K. Mar-
tens. Mr. Justice Greenbaum stated that he had not yet decided
the pending a)>plication and desired to thoroughly go into the
matter before rendering his opinion. lie granted no temporary
stay and this Commitlee is not stayed at this time from further
examining the witness Alartens. In view of tlie fact, however,
4
98
the motion is not yet decided, the Attorney-General feels that
it is ethically proper to suspend the examination of the witness
Martens until Mr. Justice Greenhaum shall have decided the
luotion now pending Iwforo him. I understand that His Honor
will probably decide the motion on ]\Ionday. I, therefore, sug-
gest, if it meet with the approval of the Chairman of the Com-
mittee, that some day next week be fixed for the examination of
the witness Martens, but that we proceed this morning with such
other witnesses as we have available at this time.
The Chairman. — Well, that seems to be the consensus of opin-
ion of the Committee, that we follow the suggestions of the
Attorney-General with regard to the witness Martens, and that
his examination be put down for the 11th at 10:30, if that is
agreeable to the Committee. I think we all agree on that ; so the
further examination of the witness Martens is set down for Thurs-
day, December 11th, at 10:30 a. m. Is Mr. Martens here?
Mr. Martens. — Yes.
The Chairman. — Well you please bear that in mind, Mr.
Martens, Thursday, December 11th, at 10:30?
We will continue the examination of the doctor, if he is here.
Dr. Mislig, you may sit here.
99
MEETING OF JOINT LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE OF THE
STATE OF NEW YORK TO INVESTIGATE
SEDITIOUS ACTIVITIES
City Hall, City of New York,
Thursday, December 11, 1919.
The Committee met pursuant to recess (11:15 a. m.)
Present :
Assemblyman Martin, Vice-Chairman ;
Senator Mull an,
Assembl;^Tnan Pellett,
Senator Walters,
Assemblyman McElligott,
Assemblyman Burr.
Ajypearances:
Hon, Charles T). Newton, Attorney-General;
Hon. Samuel A. Berger, Deputy Attorney-General ;
Archibald E, Stevenson, Esq., Associate Counsel.
Mr. Charles A. Hotaline;, Serffeant-at-Arms.
The Chairman. — The Committee will convene. Are you ready
now, Mr. Berger?
Mr. Berger. — Yes.
The Chairman. — Are you ready, General?
The Attorney-General. — Yes.
The Chairman. — Is Mr. Martens here ?
Assemblyman Pellett. — Yes, he is here.
LuDwio C. A. K. Martens, having been previously sworn,
resumed the stand and testified as follows:
The Chairman.— Mr. :Martens, yon liave aln^a.ly l)e('n sworn?
The Witness. — Yes.
The Chairman.— Well, ])ror'e('d.
100
Air. Berger. — 1 otFer in evidence a copy of the opinion of Mr.
Justice Greenbaum, dated December 9, 1919, this being a re-
print.
The Chairman. — Keceived.
(Copy of opinion of Mr. Justice Greenbaum, dated December
9, 1919, referred to, received in evidence and marked Exhibit
No. 346 of this date.)
The exhibit is as follows:
" Matter of Martens. — The application above mentioned
moves on its own aifidavit for an order to cancel a subpoena
duces tecum issued by a joint Legislative Committee and
heretofore served upon him and to restrain and enjoin tliat
committee ' from issuing any other or further subpa?na,
order or direction requiring the said L. C. A. K. Martens to
appear before that Committee or the Attorney-General of the
State of New York, or any other person or body, and to
produce any books, papers, documents and correspondence
with the government of the Russian Socialistic Federal
Soviet Republic, or to he examined concerning the same and
for such further and other relief as the court may deem
proper.' The moving papers contain a copy of a resolution
adopted by the Legislature of the State of New York pro-
viding for the appointment of a joint committee of the Sen-
ate and Assembly to investigate the scope, tendencies and
ramifications of seditious activities in the community desir-
ing to accomplish the overthrow of the government of this
State, and to report the result of its investigations to the
Legislature, to the end that it may enact ' such legislation
as may be necessary to protect the government of the State.'
The resolution empowers the Committee inter alia ' to compel
the attendance of witnesses and the production of books
and papers * * * and shall have power to sit any-
where within the State, and shall otherwise have
all the powers of a legislative committee, as pro-
vided in the legislative law, including the adoption
of rules for the conduct of these proceedings.' The
motion papers are also accompanied with a copy of the
subpana duces tecum served upon the applicant, in which it
is expressly stated that the applicant was called as a witness
101
"to tostifv luicl fiive ovidoncc in a certain investigation now
pending- of seditions activities within the State of New York.'
The respondent, the Leuishitive Committee, through its
counsel, chaHenges the right of the a])plicant to apply to this
court in a snmmarv manner l>v athchivit either to set aside
the snh})(rna or to grant the injunction as asked for. Tlie
attention of the court has not heen called by the applicant to
any authority in the code of civil procedure or elsewhere
which would entitle him to the relief sought by means of a
summary motion upon his affidavit. It does not appear that
there is any action pending in this court by the applicant
against the committee, or that this proceeding is made pur-
suant to any provision of the code of civil procedure. The
resolution expressly empowers the Legislative Committee
to issue subpoenas. Section 854 of the Code also authorizes
the issuance of a subpoena under the hand of the Chairman
of the Committee, which appears to have been done in the
matter under review. The subpoena by its terms shows that
the purpose of the examination of the applicant was strictly
in accordance with the scope of the inquiry which the Com-
mittee was empowered to conduct. The counsel for the appli-
cant justifies the motion by reason of the provisions of sec-
tion 867 of the code of civil procedure, and particularly
that portion of it which provides as follows: 'At any time
after service of such a subpoena or order the witness may
obtain, upon such a notice as the judge, referee or othei'
officer prescribes, an order relieving him wholly or partly
from the obligations imposed upon him by the subpoena or
the order for production, upon such terms as justice requires
touching the inspection of the book or any portion thereof,
or taking a copy thereof or extracts therefrom or otherwise.'
A study of that section clearly indicates that it refers only
to a trial or hearing pending in a court, in which case an
order may be made by the judge or by a referee duly ap-
pointed in the cause, relieving the witness from the obliga-
tions imposed u]>on him by the sub]Hrna, or to a special pro-
ceeding pending out of court before an officer, in which case
such an order may be made by the officer or referee. ]M ore-
over, it will be observed that that section refers only to a
' book of account ' and to no other |)apers. The motion innst
be denied. Settle oi'der on notice.
102
" Van DeWeghe v. Director-General of Railroads ; Twohill
V. Markowitz ; Lombarcli v. Kalbach ; Gottfried v. Same ;
Whittaker v. 42d St., &c., Iv'y; Pedersen v. Xelson^ (2) ;
Obstgarten v. Friedman ; York v. Third Ave. RR. ; Kava-
naugli V, Same ; Gluek v. Union R'y ; Elms v. Weinstein ;
Kruhl V. Dry Dock, i:e., RR. ; C^aleb v. Third Ave. RR. (2) ;
Calisse v. N. Y. R'ys ; Crawford v. 42d St., frc, RR. ; Kal-
bach V. Kalbach ; Greene v. Director-General of Railroads ;
Brandt v. Union Ry."'
By Mr. Stevenson:
Q. Mr. Martens, you have been sworn i A. Yes.
Q. After the ]!^ovember revolution of 1917, when the Russian
Communist Party assumed control of the government, did they not
alh)w the greatest freedom of speech to the press and in the Assem-
bly in Russia ? A. Yes, they did.
Q. And subsequent to that time, were there elections held for a
Constituent Assembly ? A. Yes.
Q. And were those elections held throughout the entire terri-
tory under the control of the Soviets ? A. Y"es.
Q. About how long a period was occupied in those campaigns
for those elections ? A. I think a couple of months.
Q. And were delegates chosen during those campaigns for
members of the constituent assembly ? A. Yes, they were.
Q. And what were the various ))arties that ran candidates for
that assembly ? A. The three main ])arties: One, so-called, the
Bolsheviks; the other the Social Revolutionists; the other, the
]\Iensheviks ; and Constitutioiuil Democrats — four parties.
Q. And what was the result of that election ? What were the
various proportions of delegates returned to that assembly? A. I
don't remember exactly the figures. Tt was approximately 40 ]ier
cent Bolsheviks and about as many Social Revolutionists, and tlie
rest for the other parties.
The (liairman. — Did you say 40 ])e]' cent Bolsheviks?
The Witness. — Yes, 40 per cent.
By Mr. Stevenson :
Q. So that the majority of that assembly constituted other than
tlie Bolshevik representatives? A. Nobody constituted a majority.
103
Q. I lueaii a luajurity of tlie delegates were not liolslievik
representatives ( A. Yes.
Q. Did that assembly ever meet < A. Yes.
Q. When did it meet ^ A. In December, 11)17, 1 think.
Q. And where did it meet ? A. Petrograd.
Q. And was that assembly permitted to sit '^ A. Until a cer-
tain time, yes.
Q. And then what was done to it ( A. Well, then the Soviets
demanded a revolutionary assendily and it was dissolved.
Q. It was dissolved? A. '^'es.
The Attorney-General. — Al)ont when was that?
The Witness. — January, 1018, I thirds; it began in January,
1018.
The Attorney-General.— January, 1918?
The Witness. — Yes.
By Mr. Stevenson:
Q. After the dissolution of the Constituent Ass(Mnbly, was 1h(^
same freedom of speech allowed as had been allowed j)revious to
that time? A. Yes.
Q. It was ? A. Yes.
Q. When was the revolutionary tribunal of the press set up ?
A. It was set up after the beginning of the intervention.
Q. When was that? A. The summer of 1018.
Q. When Avas the revolutionary tribunal set up? A. Also the
same time.
Q. And was that the tinu> when the terror was instituted ( A.
It was the time when several of the people were assassinated and
when an attempt was made to assassinate Lenine and the People's
Commissar.
Q. And the purijose of those tribunals was to prosecute ccnintcr
revolutionary activities? A. Exactly.
Q. And then a party agitating against the Soviets were consti-
tuted counter revolutionaries, were they? A. Yes, several parties;
one of them was the Amirchists, constituted to ov<>rthrow the gov-
ernment was done by the Constitutional Democrats.
Q. Were they the" cadets ? " A. Yes.
Q. So they were the [)rin<-ij)al parties tliat had been active in
the campaign for the C\instiinent .\s«'nibl\, wr'ic they not ( A.
Oh, no.
104
Q. Well, the Cadets you meiitioued '. A. The Cadets and Social
Revolutionists.
Q. Those two parties were treated as counter revolutionists,
were they not I A. Yes, and the Anarchists, too.
Q. When did you see Mr. Frank P. Walsh last I A. Frank P.
Walsh, I saw about three weeks ago.
Q. And was at a conference between Mr. Walsh, Mr. Fitz-
patrick and yourself? A. No, Mr. Fitzpatrick was not there.
Q. Are you sure 'i Was this conference at iMr. Walsh's office '*.
A. No.
Q. Where did it take placed A. Oh, yes, 1 think it was at Mr.
Walsh's office.
*^^ Q. Are you certain Mr. Fitzpatrick was not present I A. No,
he was not.
Q. Well, who was present at the conference that you had w'ith
Mr. Frank P. Walsh? A. Well, Mr. Walsh himself and Mr.
Nuorteva and I myself.
Q. Are you sure there was no one else present at that confer-
ence ? A. Oh, Mr. Hourvich.
Q. Who else ? A. No one else.
Q. No other man present ? A. No, no.
Q. Well, where else did you meet ^Ir. Walsh besides his office?
A. A couple of days before this conference I met him at his house.
Q. At what hotel did you have a conference with Mr. Walsh ?
A. I don't remember the name, it Avas somewhere in Park avenue.
Q. And who was present at that conference? A. We three.
Q. Just you three ? A. Yes.
Q. AVhat was the nature — what was the subject of the confer-
ence? A. I invited Mr. Walsli to i)articipate, or to act as my
counsel.
Q. And yuu are certain I'lat Mr. John Fitzpatrick was not
present at either of these conferences ? A. I am certain.
Q. The only subject wliich you discussed with Mr. Walsh was
whether he would be your counsel or not ? A. Yes. If another
person was present it was Mr. Recht. I forgot about him. Mr.
Recht was present also.
Q. Are you sure there were not any other persons present ?
A. No, nobody else.
Q. Can you fix the date of that conference ? A, I think it was
around November 20th, I am not sure about the date, but some-
where around there.
lo:.
Q. Vou ar(! rcfcrrini;' now to the ('(iiifcriMicc at liis otlicc^ A.
His office and liis lionic, liccaiisc at liis hoiiic. we wci'c al)out twi)
day.s iK'fore the conference at liis office.
Q. So vou would sav one of these confei'<'n(es was alxuit the
ISth of Novenihei'^ A. ^'c's, oi' one may have heen the LH)th of
November, and the other about the I'-'nd of >s'oveml)er,
Q. Vou have staled that one of the principal businesses of your
office was to counteract thv> false iin])ressions which are being given
of Soviet Russia ( A. \'es, sir.
Q. And how do yt)u go about it ^ A. 1 don't understand your
question, Air. Stevenson.
Q. AVhat methods do you employ ( A. We are pul)lishing a
j)aj)er under the name of Soviet Ihusia. It is a we(4dy and con-
sists of about 1^4 to 'V2 pages of information.
Q. And do you publish in that pap«'r docuiaents received from
Russia i A. Yes, sometimes.
Q. And original articles by persons that you select to describe
conditions in Russia ^ A. Yes, yes.
Q. What other nu'thods do you employ^ A. Well, that is the
only method I am (Muploying for this purpose.
Q. Well, you make addresses yourself on this subjects A.
Well, very seldom; sometimes.
Q. Where have you rec(Mitly r.ddrv-'ssed audiences on the subject
of Soviet Russia < A. The last time T addiwssed was the Tth of
Xovemlxu-, here in Xew York.
i). And before what organization^ A. I'ulilic meetings
arran<i<'d by the C'omnninity Labor Party.
(^. What other organi/a.tion have you addr(>-sed ( A. i was
invited to speak at meetings of the Socialist Party.
Q. Were you invit(d to .-])eal< at lueetings of the Conununist
Parly < A. Yes, 1 was.
(}. Did you acce|)t ^ A. ^'es. 1 (li<l acc(>pt.
Q. .\nd vou were prevented^ .\. The me. 'ling was called oil.
(}. That was after Xovembei' sth ^ A. Xovember Oth, 1 thiid<.
{}. Was it on a Sunday (vcniiiu^ A. .\o. I lirnd< it was on
.Monday.
(}. A)ul whef" was that ' \. Somewluic in Drooklyii. as far as
1 remember.
Q. What was the nature «d' your addres.ses? .\. My addresses
refer exclusively to conditions in Russia.
Q. .\nd vou de.M-ribc ilie W(uki!ii',s of \\w Soviet reiiime'^
A. ^■es.
IOC
(^. Do iiieiubcr.s of your stall' address iiieotings? A. Some-
times.
Q. Do tliey address meetings without your knowledge and con-
sent ^ A. No, only with my knowledge and consent.
Q. So that any meetings which they address are approved by
you ? A. Yes.
Q. Had Mr. jSTuorteva made any i)uhlic addresses recently?-
A. Yes, he made some.
Q. Where? A. Here in Kew York.
Q. Well, he has made some addresses outside of New York,
has he not i A. I think in Newark once, that's about all as far
as I remember.
Q. Well, has be made anv addresses in Pennsylvania recently?
A. No.
Q. When did he return from Pennsylvania '( A. I don't think
he was evei* — during the last few months he has not been in
Pennsylvania.
Q. Not in Pennsylvania in the last few months ? A. No,
Q. Who from your office has been in Pennsylvania in the last
few months ? A, Nobody.
Q. Nobody at all? A. Nobody at all.
Q. What other methods have you found useful to employ ? A.
For what purpose ?
Q. For the propaganda of Soviet Russia ? A. That is the only
method, giving statements ir, the ])ress also from time to time.
Q. Well, have you any cori'espondents in Washington ? A. No.
Q. Or persons who act for you in W^ashing-ton ? A. From time
to time 1 am sending myself some from our staff to Washing'ton.
Q. Well, don't vo.u have anvbodv in Washington to act for you?
A. No.
Q. Well, do yon know if any of your employees have anyone in
W^ashington ? A. Any of my employees having somebody in
Washington ?
Q. Yes. A. No.
Q. Have you ever made any request for information respecting
persons who might be favorable to the recognitioii of Soviet Russia
in Washington? A. Oh, certainly. T try to find out everything
concerning the vi(nvs of the United States Government.
Q. I see. Well, what methods have you employed to find that
out ? A. Ofteii T send some of my staff to Washington.
0. Whom do you usually send ? A. On a couple of occasion^
I scut l\lr. Clark and Mr. Nuorteva.
107
\ly the Al tni'ii('\-('i('iicr;i
(). \ (HI iiKMii liv ilic I'liilcd Slates (idvci'iniu'ut the iihmhIx'I's
of ConjiTcss ( A. \'('>;.
(}. And iiicinhcrs of the State D'c^lJartiiuMif ^ A. Yes.
I>v Mr. Stevenson:
(J. \'ou weio saving wlioni von sent. A. Ves. sii-; Mr. .Vuor-
t( va, Mr. Clark and JMr. Dudand.
Q. How do thev i)'o about ascertaining the sentiments of the
xarious members^ How do they go abont to ascertain the senti-
ments of the various uieinbors of our government? A. Well, how
ir is usually done, they have friends, acquaintances, talks; that
is the way the matter is gotten at.
Q. Well, arc they charged with the duty of bringing informa-
tion to any of these members of the government? A. No.
Q. They have never done so? A. We are sending to every
niendier of the government, Congi'ess and Senate, our publications
and statements iwo regularly sent to every one of them.
Q. What would be your object in ascertaining the attitude of
\arious representatives and officers of the government? A. You
can easily imagine, Mr. Stevenson, it would interest us pro-
foundly, every change of sentiment and every change of relation
between all these questions, they interest us and we want to find
out.
Q. Well, what do you do with the information which you gather
respecting these matters? A. Well, we keep it to ourselves.
Q. Do you make reports to your home government? A. Oh,
yes, certainly.
(). And these reports contain statements of the sentiments of
tlie various officers of our government? A. \^es.
(}. Are those re|)orts detailed? A. ^fore or less.
Q. And you kec]) copies of these reports ? A. Y"es, I do.
Q. And do the conununications which you receive from your
home government contain any references to your reports respect-
ing these matters ( A. Well, to a very small extent, but not much.
Q. And do they contain instructions for you to proceed? A.
W(>11, T have more or less general powers to proceed as the
situation allows.
Q. Has part of your work been to create sentiment here for
the withdrawal of .\nieriean trooj)s from Ru'jsia ? A. Partly for
108
the lifting of the; blockade, recognition of the Soviet government,
and as a result of it the Avithdrawal of troops from Russia.
B_v Mr. Stevenson :
Q. Does your commercial department suggest to business men'
to urge the recognition of Soviet Russia ? A. ISTo, our commer-
cial department suggests to business men to ask the State Depart-
ment for export licenses.
Q. But it is never hinted to anv' of your business correspond-
ents that they should urge the recognition of Soviet Russia''^
A. No. How could they do it ?
By Mr. Berger:
Q. Mr. Martens, I believe you stated at an earlier hearing
that you were interested solely in the troubles of citizens of Russia
in this country ; is that right ^ A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you are not particularly concerned with the troubles
or woes of parties who are not citizens ? A. No, not at all.
Q. Well, then, will you kindly explain your conference with
Mr. Larkin yesterday 'i A. Who is Mr. Larkin —
Q. You know Mr. Larkin, do you not ? A. Yes.
Q. Will you tell the Committee whether your conference with
him had any connection with the indictment for criminal anarchy ?
A. Not the slightest.
Q. Will you tell us what it was ^ A. He brought one of his
friends to me who wanted to shake hands with me.
Q. Did you, directly or indirectly, put up any part of the bail
in the Larkin easel' A. Not a cent.
Q. ^Ir. Reeht is your attorney ? A. Yes.
Q. Charles Recht '^ A. Yes.
Q. Will you state whether it was by your direction, or with
your :i]»[)roval, that Mr. Recht, the counsel for your Bureau,
.'ippeared for Larkin and Gitlow'^ A. I have not the slightest
relation to the Larkin and Gitlow case. It is purely Mr. Recht's
business and I have not the slightest connection with it.
Q. Well, the matter was discussed, though, was it not '^ A. It
was on several occasions nu'utioned but I did not discuss any
situation arising from the transactions of Communists or the
Communist Labor Party. It does not concern me absolutely.
Q. Well now that was not the first time that Mr. Larkin called
to see vou. vesterdav ? A. Oh. all tojrether, two or three times.
109
Q. What was the lirst tinie^ When was the first time^ A.
Long ago.
Q. How long ago. A. Maybe tivr or six months ago.
Q. And when was the second time ( A, Oh, say about at that
lime; but L did not see him for at least three or four months.
Q. Well, you saw him between the time of his arrest on the
charge of criminal anarchy, yesterday, did you not — A. No.
Q. Did anyone see you in his behalf^ A. No.
(^. Vou recall the circumstances of some eighteen or nineteen
men being arrested, about a luonth ago, charged with ci-iminal
auarchy, and for whom Mr. Ivccht appeared? A. Yes.
i). What was yoiu' iutcrcst iu that uuitter ^ A. No interest
at all. 1 do not know I he men a. id llu'v never apjK^aled to nu-
for any assistance.
Q. Well, sonu^ of them arc Jiussiau citizens? A. I under-
stand so,
Q. Were you not interested in their cases ^ A. Well, I have
too uuu'h to do to be interested in everything. 1 wouhl gladly
rend(-i- them assistance if I could.
Q. Well, is it not a fact, Mr. Martens, that some of those men
aj)pealed to you for aid ( A. X(K sii'.
Q. Not one of them? A. Xo. not one of them.
(}. And do you know that Mr. Recht deposited $500 as part
of the bail in the Larkiu case? A. 1 (\i) not.
(.}. Do you know that to be a fnct. A. No.
(). Did you have anything to do with that $500? A. Nothing
at all.
(^. ,N<>t tlirectlv oi indirectly^ A. Not directly or indii'ectly.
Q. Or anyone in your Bureau ? A. Or anyone in my Bureau.
Q. Will yon state positively that it was not after conference
with y(»u that Mr. Recht a])peared for those eighteen or nineteen
men. A. Alisolutely i)ositively, ^Mr. Berger.
(^. Well, now, you stated t(t us that it was the ])olicy of the
Bureau, and of your legal department in particular, to give aid
and assistance to citizens of Russia who were in difficulties here?
A. Yes.
Q. You have not reversed that jiolicy, have you? A. No, not
at all.
Q. And in spite of that policy not having been reversed, you
sav that you did not in any way give assistance to any of these
people? A. No.
no
Q. -Neitliei' bj advice or couu^cl or liiiancial assistance, or in
any other way i A. Xo.
Q. Are you in touch witii the leaders of the Communist Party
in this country i A. What do you call '' in touch? "
Q. In conference? A. No.
Q. Are you in correspondence with them? A. No.
Q. Do you know them? A. 1 know one or two of them.
Q. Whom do you know, Mr. Martens ? A. Well, I met Git-
low ; I met Larkin, too. Once I spoke on the same platform as
Mr. Ruthenberg.
Q. Where was that, the Madison Square Garden? A. Madi-
son Square Garden.
Q. June 20th ? A. Yes.
Q. Do you know any others ? A. No.
Q. Cohen? A. ,^"0.
Q. Fraina? A. Yes, I think 1 met him on several occasions.
Q. Y^our sym])athies are with their doctrines, to be perfectly
frank, Mr. Martens^ A. Well, to be perfectly frank, I have not
seen their program. Maybe they make mistakes. I cannot judge.
All I can tell you is I have al)solutely no connection with the
(Vmimunist Party.
Q. But you know" their general plan and scope and ideas on
which the C^ommunist Party of America is founded ? A. Why.
certainly. I suppose it is the same as the Russian Communist
Party.
Q. So, being the same as the Russian Communist Party,
naturally your sympathies are with them? A. Yes.
Q. And you believe, do you not, that the principles the Com-
munist Pai-ty of America advocates in this country ought to be
carried out in this country, do you not, to be perfectly frank?
A. No, I would not answer that. To be perfectly frank with you,
Mr. Berger, I would not answer yes or no before I see and before
I study the program of the Communist Party of America. I did
not study it and have never had a chance to do it, and so I cannot
answer you yes or no.
Q. You know, though, that they are founded on the same prin-
ciples ; that it is founded on the same principles as the principles
of the Russian Communist Party ? A. Yes.
Q. Well, now, assuming that they are founded on the same
principles — which I may tell you they are — do you, or do you
not, s^mipathize with their views? A. Well, every .Socialist sym-
]>athizes with every other Socialist.
Ill
i}. Will vou hv tijK'cilic^ J am iiskin<; vou a direct question.
Assuming that the principles of the Coinniunist Party of America
are substantially the same as those of the Communist Party of
Russia, do you believe that those principles should be carried out
in this countiy ? N'ow, that is a plain question and is susceptible
of a yes or no answer. A. Every party has certain principles that
they wish to carry out. It is the desire of the Communist Party
to carry out their principles.
Q. You have not answered the question. A. What is the
question ?
Mr. Berger. — Will you please read the question again?
(Questioi' read by reporter.)
A. No, I cannot answer yes or no.
Q. Well, what is the best answer you can make as to your
belief, your sympathies ? A. I can answer that everyone who
professes certain, principles ought to carry them out.
Q. Well, now, of course A. Eut the Communist Party
of America does not concern me.
Q. What are your sympathies in that direction ? Are you
inimical to them ? Are you against them ? A. No, T am not.
Q. Well, then, are you for them? A. Well, I am neither for
nor against.
Q. You are not against ? A. Xo.
Q. Are you for them ? A. T am not against them.
Q. I know you are not against them; are you for those prin-
ciples ? A. Ml'. Berger, do you want to pin me down ?
Q. I want to pin you dovvn to an answer to my question. A.
The Communist Party, or Communist Liberal Party of America,
does not concern me absolutely. T refuse to answer anything
regarding that pai'ty. They do not concern me at all.
Q. But you have spoken on the same platform as the leaders
of that party? A. Yes, I did.
Q. Xow, you believe that the principles of the Communist
Party are good for Russia, do you not ? A. Certainly.
Q. And you believe they ought to be carried out in Russia? A.
Certainly.
Q. You rdso l^elieve that those principles ought to be extended
throughout the whole world, do yon not ? A. Well, that is a
matter for the world to decide.
Q. T am asking for vour belief. We are not interested in the
belief of the world. T want your belief. A. ^fr. Berger, you
want to connect me with this propaganda.
112
Q. I am nut trviiig tu do aiivtliiiig of tlie kind. We want to
get your virnvs. You are an intelligent man and we want to get
your views. A. Mr. Berger, the last time you stated I admitted
advocating a revolution in the I'nited States of America.
Q. We stood on the record. To get back to the question : You
believe that those ])rineiples would be good for the rest of the
world as well as for Russia ( A. Yes.
Q. And the United States is a part of the rest of the world,
is it not ? A. Yes.
Q. 'Well, then, do you believe that they would be good for the
interests of this country and the i)eople of this covmtry ? A. I do
not only believe, I know. 1 know that every country in the world
will be a believer in Socialistic principles. That is a matter of
knowledge.
Q. That is simply an o])inion '( A. ISTo, it is a matter of knowl-
edge.
Q. Are you possessed of prescience ? A. No, not at all.
Q. You do not know that that is going to occur ; you simply
believe in it ? A. No. Socialism will conquer the world. T
know it.
Q. And you are doing your share to help conquer this par-
ticular portion of it !* A. 1 am doing my share to help Soviet
Russia.
Q. liow, will you state more fully what the substance of the
conference between you and Larkin was ? A. ll^othing at all.
It was no conference at all. Sim])ly a friend of Larkin's wanted
to shake hands with me, wanted to see me; and he came in and
stayed about five minutes in my office.
Q. You mean Larkin brought this friend and presented him?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was the friend ? A. I have forgotten his name, but I
think I have his card on my table.
Q. Is he an American citizen ? A. I^o.
Q. A Russian ? A. English.
Q. Did you send greetings to the fifth convention of the con-
ference of Russian branches of the Communist party, in this city,
between Augiist 20th and August 28th? A. 'ko.
Q. Well, did you send greetings to any convention of the Rus-
sian branches of the Communist party, in this city? A. N'o, I
did not.
Q. You did not? A. N'o.
113
(^. If there arc eiitrit's in the niimiic l)ook of this ])aiticular
organization to that etfcct, arc those entries incorrect < A. 1 do
not rememl)er.
Q. If there is an entrv in the iiiiinile hook of this organization
tiiat you sent greetings lo them, is that incorrect? A. Sometimes
I am receiving greetings fi-oiu all kinds of branches, conferences
and so on; and nsnally 1 am answering a sim])le h»ttor and send-
ing greetings; so that may Ix- the case.
(). ^'ou have been kept (piitc fully informed, have you not, ])y
.Mr. Recht, concerning ilic various steps taken in the cases of the
men recently arrested in I his city ^ A. No, I have not had time
to discuss it.
Q. Well, what have you liccn so busy with. Mi. Martens, if
that is not an impertinent iiucsiion^ A, Well, ]\[r. Berger, you
gave me a lot of trouble.
Q. T^ot all the tiiuc. .\. Well, still ] have my other business.
Q. In what direction i A. My usual business and correspond-
ence with different comnHTcial liiiiis. and attending to office busi-
ness. Tt takes my time.
(}. ^'ou are in sympailiy. arc yon not. .Mr. .Martens, with the
l)rinciples expressed in the call for the Third Tnternational ? A.
Which do YOU mean, Mr. Berger?
Q. Well, as I understand, there is only one call for the Third
International. A. Which one ^
Q. AVell, the call, the call sent out by — A. By whom?
Q. Your friends in Soviet Bnssia ? A. Well, there Avere nuuiy
calls, Mr. Berger; T do not kiu)w wliich one you mean.
Q. Tn reference to the call that contained the words, sub-
stantially, to the efi'ect that the bourgeoisie must be disarmed and
the proletariat armed. Tliat is the one that refers to all the
workers of the world, does it not ( A, Well, Mr. Berger, why
should we discuss it? T really do not know. It is something F
cannot discuss.
Assemblyman l)Uii\--May 1 ask a question?
The Chairman. — Yes.
jMr. Burr. — Did Mr. Walsh accept your invitation to become
your counsel ?
The Witne!*s, — Yes.
Mv. Burr. — Did he acce]ti that invitation?
The Witness.— Yes.
114
By Mr. Berger :
^ Q. And in what particular matter was that ? A. In the matter
of this Committee, and in general.
The Attorney-General. — You mean by that as to your rights
before the Committee?
The Witness. — Yes.
The Attorney-General. — Did he give you any opinion on the
subject? A. Yes, he expressed it.
The Attorney-General. — Any written opinion ?
The Witness. — iSTo, no written opinion.
The Attorney-General. — Was the subject similar to that dis-
cussed by Mr. Justice Greenbaum, discussed with him ? A. Yes.
The Chairman. — Well, I suppose this power that you have
here from your so-called government, is general in its scope, is it
not ? That is, you are largely acting under your own judgment ?
The AVitness. — I do not understand.
The Chairman. — I say, you are largely acting under your own
judgment ? A. Yes.
The Chairman. — The general instructions that you have is to
create a sentiment in this country favorable to the peculiar form
of government that there is in Russia ? A. Yes.
The Chairman. — And, of course, you put that forward in its
most attractive way? A. Yes.
By Mr. Berger :
Q. You said that you did not send any greetings to this con-
vention of the Communist party ; is that right ? A. I say maybe
I have sent them, but if I sent them it was only in answer to some
sort of greetings from them.
Q. You do not recall what the substance of that greeting was ?
A. I do not recall, no,
Q. But it was substantially an expression of sympathy and
approval with the ideas of the Communist party ? A. Probably
— no; general thanks for their greetings, or a wish for their suc-
cess.
115
Q. You expre^sscd a hope that tlio.v WDiild bo successful in their
endeavors? A. Probably.
Ej the Attorney-General :
Q. Well, vou would expect to oet help, in your cases, from the
* AT
Communist party, Avould you not, j\Ir. Martens^ A. JNo.
Q. You would not expect any helj) from them? A. No.
Q. You would expect sympathy from them? A. Y^es.
Q. And if you expected to find sympathy anywhere in this
country, it would be through that ])arty and from them? A.
Through every party I work with, their sympathies and help.
Q. I mean" the sympnthi(^s of the Communist party. A. The
Communist party and Socialists and Liberals.
Q. And you would exi)ect to iintl sympathy from them before
you would from any other parties in this country?^ A. No, I
have sympathies from many liberals ; also from the Socialist party.
They have on numy occasions exi)ressed their sympathy; and
also from the public.
By Mr. Berger:
Q. Who is Krasnoil", in Soviet Russia, or some name approxi-
nuiting that '. A. I don't know.
(^. \Vho is Voldarski ? A. Voldarski was one of the People's
Commissariat who was assassinated in PetrogTad.
Q. And he originally came from Philadelphia, did he not?
A. I don't know whether he was in Philadelphia, but I know he
was in New Y^ork.
Q. Do you know his other name? A. 1 don't know.
g. Was it Gohhnan '. A. 1 don't know.
(,). Who was Shatoii'^ A. Chief of police in Petrograd.
(}. And what are his functions there? A. Chief of police.
(^. What ar(i his duties? A. What the duties of chief of police
are.
Q. Xew York City ^ A. Yes.
Q. Do vou know anything about his police record in New York
City^ A. Xo.
i\. What particular qiialitications did Shatotf have ^ A. 1
und'erstand he is a very en.Mgetic man and is a first-class chief of
police in Petrograd.
(^ He was a member of th<- I. W. W. in this country, was he
not '. A. Yes. T think he was.
116
Q. And you say tliiit he is energetic in the carrying out of his
duties ? A. Yes.
The Chairman. — Now, is it true that a man can be a citizen of
the Russian Soviet Government, as it exists to-day, and retain his
citizenship here in the United States at the same time ?
The Witness. — Well, ^Jr. Clniirman, you see the situation is
this: During the Czar's government, a Russian citizen who he-
came an American citizen did not lose his Russian citizenship.
The Attoi'ney-General. — Is that true now ?
The Witness. — It is not now. Every foreigner who came to
Russia, who settles in Russia and believes in citizenship, becomes
a citizen ; but that does not relate to our American laws. I do not
know how the situation will be in America.
By Mr. Berger:
Q. Now, just to go back to the Shatoff matter for a minute.
Will you tell us in detail what his duties are in Petrograd ? A. I
do not know what his duties are.
Q. Well, you are ]jretty well informed on conditions there, are
you not? A. Certain y. As far as I know, Mr. Shatotf is a very
good chief of police. He suppressed every crime in Petrograd.
Petrograd is now the safest city in the world. American people
coming from Petrograd say it is much safer than New York,
Chicago, or other American cities; and they claim it is due to the
energies of Shatoff.
Q. W^ell, is it particularly safe for the so-called counter revo-
lutionists there \ A. Absolutely.
Q. What did he do to the counter revolutionists to make it so
safe for them % A. We have our regular court proceedings and
every criminal caught in Russia is tried and given every opportu-
nity to defend himself; so they are not killed or hanged, as you
imagine, without a trial. They are tried in a very regular way,
and if they are executed, it is for something very substantial.
By the' Chairman:
Q. How are the courts created ? A. The courts are created by
elections. The judges are elected.
IIT
J>v .Mr. Leiger:
Q. Are they exocuteJ for crimes dthcr tliaii murder^ A. Plot-
ting against the government, treachery and lliose kinds of crimes.
Q. And a counter revohition is a crime punishabh' by death, is
it not ( A. A counter i-evolution is. There are all kinds of
penalties.
Q. You mentioned that as among the crimes i A. ^s'o, I did
not, Mr. Berger. A counter revolution is — there are thousands
of crimes — a counter revolution may consist of assassinating
any one of the People's Commissars; or a counter revolutionary
act may consist of ])rotiteering, or something of that kind. For
one crime the |XMialty may be one or two years in prison, or may
be a month or two.
Q. What was the i)articular crime of the 1,500 Commissars
who were executed i A. Treachery.
Q. What kind of treachery ^ A. Giving information to the
enemy, chietly.
Q. Well, not all of them did that? A. Chiefly, I don't know
every case, Mr. IJerger.
(^. Some of them meix'ly spoke and agitated against the Bol-
sheviki ( A. No, for speaking and agitating nobody was executed
in Soviet Russia.
Q. Will you identify the Mi'. Frank i'. Walsh you refer to ^
Which Mr. Frank P. VValsh was that ? A. Will I identify him '.
Q. Yes so that wo know who if was. A. 1 cannot understand
you.
(}. Where is his office? A. Somewhere down town.
Q. In Xew York City? A. Yes.
Q. And has he any official position of any kind that you know
n[-( A. Xo.
Q. You don't know whether he has or not ? A. I don't know.
(). Do you know whether he did have any official position {
A. I know be was the past several years the head of a committee
in Congress to investigate the trusts here in America, that I know.
Q. And that is the same ^fr. Walsli who was on the War J.abor
Hoard ( A. That is right.
The Attoi'ney-General. — Mr. Chairman. 1 have been so occu-
pied since the former hearing that I have not had time to go over
the record of questions which T»'ere asked ]\Ir. ^fartens and which
he has declined to answer. I tliink we can save time il" we take
118
our recess at this point and in the meantime tho^^e questions will
he prepared.
The Chairman. — Will it be agreeable to you, Mr. Martens, to
be back here, say at two o'clock?
The Witness. — Yes, sir.
The Chairman. — Then we will take a recess now until two
o'clock this afternoon.
(Whereupon at 12:15 p. m, the committee took a recess to two
o'clock of the same day.)
AFTER RECESS
(Prior to the open session, the Committee held an executive
session.)
The Committee reconvened at 3 :30 P. M.
LuDWiG C. A. K. Maetens, resumed, and testified as follows :
By the Attorney-Greneral :
Q. Mr. Martens, you were served with a subpoena duces tecum
to produce certain documents in your possession. Do you remem-
ber when that was ? A. Here is the subpoena here.
Q. Can you tell me when that was seiwed upon you ? A. The
14th day of ^November.
Q. 1919 ? A. 1919, yes.
Q. And in pursuance of the subpoena, you did produce the
check book? A. Yes.
Q. Did you produce the bank books? A. No, the check books
contain everything.
Q. You were asked to produce books of account. Have you
produced any books of account ? A. No, but I can produce them
at any moment.
Q. You can produce those and will produce them ? A. Yes.
Q. You were asked to produce — that is, you were subpoenaed to
produce, letters and other papers received by you and your Bureau
from Soviet Russia ? A. Yes.
Q. Have you produced any of such letters or papers? A. No,
I did not.
119
(^. Did v(Ui li;i\(' letters iiiid papers in ymir pnssessioii. rroiii
Soviet Russia, at tlie time of the service of this siihpoeiia ^ A.
Vos, sir.
Q. You have them yet '. A. ^'es, sir.
Q, And will you now pi'odiice them '. \. No, sir.
(^ Why^
The Witness. — Mr. Chairman. aUow me t(» make a statement in
connection with this 'I
The Attorney-General. — (^. ^'es. 1 have asked you why pur-
])osely in oi'der to give you an op|tortunity to make a statement.
The Witness. — I desire to state the reasons why I decline to
|)roduce my correspondence with the i;overnment of Soviet Russia
and to answer any questions rehiting to the same.
r am the duly accredited representative of the de fucto govern-
ment of Soviet Russia. A dc facto government has been defined
as '' such as exists after it has e.\])elled the regularly constituted
authorities from the seats of powei' in the public offices and
established its owm functionaries in their places, so as to represent
in fact the sovereignty of the nation." (Moore's Digest of Inter-
national Law, Volume 1, page 44, quoting from Williams against
Bruffy, 96 IT. S. 176, pages 185-186.) It is further said by the
same authority that a de facia government enjoys " the rights and
attributes of sovereignty . . . independently of all recog-
nition.'' (^foore's Digest, \'ol. 1. page 72.) iSTow, it is the
acceptiMl ])rinciple of International Law that the correspondence
between a foreign government and its representative is privileged.
1 have a])plied to Justice Greenbaum of the New York Suprenu'
Court for relief. I have read in tiie newspa])ers that my applica-
tion has been denied, Imt as far as I know n(v copy of the order
denying my application has Ikhmi served u|)on my counsel. .Vs
soon as we are served with a co|)y of the order of Judge Green-
baum we intend to take an ap])eal from his (U-der.
I have answered all questions pertaining to my owni activity
within the State of Xew York: I have produced all my books and
correspondence, althongli 1 might have claimed j)rivilege under
the principles of International Law. Ihit, to (|uote the language
of the late Swretary of State Hay. in a similar matter, a repre-
sentative of a foreign govei-nment " cannot lie re<]uired to divulge
information which came to him in his olHcial capacity, for that
is the exclusive property of his governnu'nt." ( Moore's Digest of
120
Interiiatioual i.aw, \'ol. 5, pages 84-85, (juoting from Sqcretary
Hay's letter dated April 17, 1801), iu the matter of Consular Agent
Clancy.)
I desire to emphasize once more that the reason I decline to
answer is not that 1 have anything to conceal but as a matter of
])rinciple; I have no authority to divulge the contents of my cor-
respondence with my government.
By the Attorney General:
Q. Was the paper you have just read prepared by your coun-
sel? A. Yes, sir.
Q, And prepared for the purpose of presenting here as a legal
reason why you need not produce the papers? A. Yes, sir.
The Attorney-General. — Mr. Chairman, I ask that the witness
he directed to produce the pa})ers mentioned in the subpoena, being
letters and other papers received by him and his bureau from
Soviet Russia, and all co|)ies of letters, documents and other
papers sent to him and his Bureau and now under his control, by
Soviet Bussia, between the 1st day of Januaiy, 1919, and the
date of service of this subpoena — which you said was November
what ?
The Witness. — November 14th.
The Attorney General. — November 14th.
The Chairman. — Now, ^Ir. Martens, pursuant to the instruc-
tions of thc^ Committee, and in accordance with the powers vested
in them, ], as (Uiairman of the Committee, direct you to produce
those papers.
The Witness.— T am very sorry, ^Tr. Chairman, that T have
lo decline.
By The .Vttorney-General :
Q. ]\ly recollection, ^Ir. ^lartens, is that you told me the other
day, that you had issued no pass})orts ? A. No sir.
Q. And you now say the same, that you have issued no pass-
ports ^ A. No sir.
Q. Either to leave this country — to anyone < A. No sir.
Q. Or to enalile any agent of Soviet Russia to get from any
othei' country into Russia ? A. No. no passports.
121
Q. Have you isisuod any |ja})er at all wliidi would tend to assist
am* representative of yon to get hack into Russia ? A. Yes, I
have.
(^, .Vnd to whom did you issue such a papcM'^ A. 1 addressed
them mostly '' To w^lioni it uuiy eoncei-n."
(}. And under what dat>> ^ A. l)ill'(n\'nt (Kites; I don't remem-
ber, Mr, Ise\\ion.
Q. And under what date^ A. 1 )itl'(M'('ut (hitcs, I do not
rciuemlxM'.
Q. Different dates from January, ItHD ^ A. From March.
Q. March, 1919? A. Yes.
Q. To whom did you deliver any one of thos(> ])a])ers? A. I
am sorry I have to decline.
Q. You know the names of sonu* of the jjersons. at any rate, to
whom you did deliver those papers? A. Yes.
Q. And you could give the Committee the nanu^ of the person
if you desired to ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, I ask you to give the name of one o.r more of those
persons to whom you have delivered such a paper since March,
1919. A. I have to decline for the same reason.
Mr. ]S'ewton. — T ask the Chairman to direct the witness to
answer the (piestion.
The Chairman. — Under the same instructions from the Com-
mittee the Chair directs you to answer the (piestion of the Attor-
ney-General. A. T decline.
By the Attoi-ney-General :
Q. Will you tell me about how many such ])apers you have
delivered since ]\Iarch, 1919, ^Ir. Martens? A. Five or six,
Q. And you don't call such a |)a|)>'r a passixtrt ( A. Xo. 1 don't.
Q. What do you call it? A. .\ rctVrcncc letter.
Q. Reference letter ? A. Yes.
Q. Now, you testified as I iccall it that there were certain
paj)ers or credentials delivered to yon from the Russian Soviet
Ciovernnient. delivered j)ers(»nally to yon in Xcw York? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. l]y messenger ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the tirst of those |)a))ers, as T recall yonr lesti ny, was
ahout the middle of March. 1919 ? A. Yes, sir, that is right.
Q. Anil they were yonr A. OHieinl credentials, yes. sir.
122
Q. — official credentials advising you that you had been selected
i)y (he Soviet Jiussiaii Government as their representative in this
country 'i A. Yes, sir,
Q. Do you know the name of the messenger who delivered the
paper to you? A. Yes, I know hini.
Q. Well, who was it 'i A. I decline to answer.
i}. The papers were delivered here in New Y'ork ( A. Yes, sir.
The Attorney-General, — I ask the Chairman to instruct t^he
witness to answer the question.
The Chairman, — Under the authority conferred on me as
Chairman of the Comanittee, I instruct you to answer the question,
Mr. Martens.
The Witness, — 1 decline, Mr, Chairman.
By the Attorney-General :
Q. And is the reason why you decline to give the luuue of the
messenger substantially the reason that you have read into the
record tins afternoon 'i A. Yes, sir.
Q. And to cover it once for all, that is substantially your reason
for declining to answer any of the questions that you decline to
answer here '( A. That is the only reason, Mr. Attorney -General.
Q. That is the only reason ? A. Yes, sir.
jQ. I think I asked you the other day if you could produce
those credentials. A. As a matter of fact I have produced a copy
to Mr. Berger when I was questioned in his office.
Q, Y^ou did produce that 'i A. Y'"es, sir, a photographic copy.
Q. Well, that is not before this Committee. You are willing
to produce a copy of those credentials here to this Committee <
A. Y^es, sir.
Q. Have you them with you so that they can be marked in
evidence now? A. jS^o, 1 have not them,
Q, How long would it take you to get them :' A. Oh, an houf
I suppose, or two, I could send it tonight, Mr. ISTewton, if vou
like, ^ / "
The iVttorney-General. — Well, 1 don"t like to have a paper
marked in evidence which ycm do not identify here, b<^canse 1
don't want to take cbances. Possibly w(* can send ovi/r to ^Fr.
l)(>rger's office and you cau iccoguize llic photogra])li if il i- ju'o-
duced hei'c.
123
The \\'itiieiS6. — Yes, 1 gave to j\lr. l>ei-ger onv copy.
The Attorney-Geueral. — Well, we will send over and see if
we can get it.
(A messenger was sent over to Mr. Merger's office, 51 Chambers
street, to procure the; copy referred to.)
By the Attorney-General:
Q. Now, you testified, as 1 recall it that from time to time
you are now receiving communications from Soviet Russia in the
form of letters and other documents, by special messenger? A.
Yes, sir, from time to time.
Q. And altout how many of those couuuunications or docu-
ments have you received since you received your official notifica-
tion of your a})pointment or designation { A. You mean by means
of messengers (
Q. Yes. A. About ten times.
Q. And have you copies of all the commuuieations and letters,
or originals or copies of all the communications'^ A, 1 keep only
othcial communications.
Q. ^'ou keep only official conuiiunications, and were there ten
of those i A. Yes, sir.
Q. Those you have in your possession now? A. Y'^es, sir.
Q. And can produce them here if you have a mind to ? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Xow, will you ])ro(lu('e those ])apers^ A. Xo, I decline to
produce tliem.
The Attorney-General. — I ask the Chairman to direct the wit-
ness to produce those ten communications to which he refers in
his testimony.
The Chairman. — 1 direct the witness to produce them, and
each of thciii.
The \\'itness. — 1 decline. Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. — The Chair directs the witness to produce the
papers referred t»> by the Attorney -General, and each of them.
Tlic Witness. — I decline. Mr. Clinirman.
124
Bv the Attornev-General
Q, And they are in the form of letters and other documents?
A. In the form of letters.
Q. Tn the form of letters ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were those ten communications all received hy special
nressenger? A. Yes.
Q. The same messenger, or different messengers ? A. Different
messengers.
Q. Were any two of them received hv the same messenger ?
A. I— '
Q. Delivered, I mean. Did you receive them from the same
messenger, any two of them ? A. !N^o.
Q. Can you give the names of the ten messengers who delivered
tlie messages ? A. !N'o, sir.
Q. Or letters ? A. N"©.
Q. You could not give the names of the ten if you wanted to ?
A. The names of most of them I could give you.
Q. But not all of them ? A. No, not all of them.
Q. So you could not give the names of the whole ten if you
wanted to ? A. 'No.
Q. Now, could you give the names of any of the ten ? A. I
decline to.
Q. Could you ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, I ask you to give me the name of one of them ? A. T
decline.
The Attorney-General. — I now ask the Chairman to instruct
the witness to answer the question.
The Chairman. — I so instruct the witness.
The Witness. — I decline, Mr, Chairman.
By the Attorney-General:
Q. Now, Mr. Martens, do these ten letters that were delivered
to you, as you have described, contain, in any one of them — did
any one of them contain money from the Russian government ?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did they all contain money? A. Not all, no.
Q. How many of them did contain money from your govern-
ment, how manv of tlio ton ? A. I think five.
125
(^. Xow, can vou give iiic the names of aiiv one of the five
messengers who delivered monev to yon from voiir government?
A. I could, yes.
Q. Will you give me the name of one messenger who delivered
money to you from the Russian government ? A. I decline.
TheAttorney-General. — I ask the Cliairmaii to instnict the
witness to answer the question.
The Chairman. — The Chair instructs yo»i to answer the
question.
The Witness. — 1 decline, Mr. Chairman.
By the Attorney-General :
Q. Those deliveries were all made since ]\Iaich, IIU!) ( A. Yes,
sir, Mr. A^ewton.
Q. Now, do you send a report to your government of the method
of the expenditures of any of the moneys that yon receive from
them ^ A. Yes.
Q. And a written report ( A. A written report, yes.
Q. Do you keep a co])y of those reports i A. Yea.
Q. Aiid you could produce a c()j)y of those reports if you were
inclined to '( A. Y^es, I could.
Q. Will you ])roduce any one of them to the Committees! A.
I decline.
The Attorney-General. — I ask the Chaiiinan to instruct the
witness to answer.
The Chairman. — You are instructed to ])i()duce the reports
required by the Attorney-General.
The Witness. — 1 decline, ^Ii'. Chairman.
Assemblyman McElligott. — Mr. Attorney-Geneial, are these
reports referred to in the suhjKPna (
The Attorney-General. — Of course, i1h' .-ultpoiia is })retty
broad, it is general. He is directed to piodiicc all documents,
letters and other papei's received by hini or scut by him.
A-semblyman McElligott. — 1 see.
The Attorney-General. — '' Documents and othei' ))apers .<ent l\v
vou or vour T^ureau to Soviet Russia."
V
126
Assemblymiin Mclligott.- — I see.
By the Attorney-General:
Q. Were any of these reports sent to your government by special
messenger ? A. Mostly by mail.
Q. Well, were any of them ? A. Several of them were sent by
special messenger.
Q. Some one or more of them were sent by special messenger?
A. Yes.
Q. You know the names of the messengers who carried the re-
ports ? A. Yes, I know.
Q. What is the name of one of the messengei-s who carried a
report ? A. I decline to answer.
The Attorney-General, — I ask the Chairman to direct the wit-
ness to answer.
The Chairman.^ — The witness is so directed.
The Witness. — I decline to answer, Mr. Chairman.
By the Attorney-General:
Q. You testified that there was some agency outside of the
United States that transmits to you cerain letters from your gov-
ernment ? A. Yes,
Q. That is true, is it ? You understand me, and that is a fact ?
A. Yes.
Q. Where is that agency located ? A, One of them is in Sweden.
Q. In Sweden ? A'. Yes.
Q. Is there more than one ? A. Yes, more than one.
Q. Where are any of the others ? A. I decline to answer.
The Attorney-General. — I ask the Chairman to instruct the
witness to answer.
The Chairman. — The Chair instructs you to answer.
The Witness. — I decline to answer.
By the Attorney-General :
Q. How many such agencies are there ''. A. I decline to answer.
The Chairman.— The Chair instructs you to answer.
The Witness. — I decline.
127
By the Attorney-General :
Q. Do you know the })ers()ii in charge of any one of those
agencies ( A. Yes, I know.
Q. Will you name a person that is in charge ot" one of the
agencies ( A. Yes, I could.
Q. Will you ^ A. 'J'hcrc is one. Mr. Sti-oni. a nicmlicr of the
Swedish Parliament.
Q. That is the Swedish ag(>ncy ( A. Yes.
Q. What part of Sweden { A. Stockholm.
Q. Can you give us a hetter address than that ? A. No, he is
well known in Stockhohn ; simi)lv address: *' Mr. Strom, Stock-
holm."
Q. He is an otiicial ( A. ^'es, he is an official ro])resoiitative
of the Soviet Government in Sweden.
Q. Do you address him as '" Consul " or "Ambassador'^'' A.
A representative.
Q. Representative? A. Yes.
Q. Now, do you know the name of any person who is in charge
of any other agency, through whom you send or receive communi-
cations from Soviet Russia ( A. \'es, I know.
Q. And will yon give me the name of such persons? A. T
could.
Q. You said yon could. Now, will yon ? A. No, sir; I decline.
The Attorney-General. — 1 ask the Chairman to direct the
witness to answer.
The Chairman. — The Chair directs the witness to answer the
last question and give the namos requested by the Attorney-Gen-
eral. What is your answer?
The Witness. — T decline. ^Tr. Chairman.
Assemblyman McKI]ig<»tt. — Air. Attorney-General, there is a
question in th{> minds of some of the members of the Committee
as to whether the government of Sweden recognizes Soviet Russia,
the present form of government, the alleged form of government.
of Soviet Russia.
The Witness. — 1 did not get that.
Assemhlynnin Mcl^lligott. — Does Sweden recogni/e the |>i'esent
form of govei-nment — alleged foi-m of government, in Russia?
The Witness. — Well, in Sweden there is an official representa-
tive of the Soviet Government, who is at the present time a
memhrr of the Swedish Parliament.
128
Assemblyman McElligott. — But is he accredited from Soviet
Russia to Sweden and recognized as a representative — a diplo-
matic representative?
The Witness. — Not in the usual sense.
Assemlth nuiii McElligott. — Wliat is that?
The Witness. — ISTot in the usual sense.
Assemblyman McElligott. — ]^ot in the usual sense?
The Witness. — 'No.
Assemblyman McElligott. — And this individual is a member
of the Swedish Parliament, is he ?
The Witness. — Yes.
Assemblyiiuui McElligott. — And he himself is an official of
the Government of Sweden, is he ?
The Witness. — Yes, he is a member of the Sweden Parliament.
Assemblyman ]\[cElligott. — He could not act both as a meml>er
of the Swedish Parliament and as a representative of the Russian
government, could he ?
The Witness. — Yes.
Assemblyman McElligott. — He could ?
The Witness. — Yes.
Assemblyman McElligott. — Responding to both governments ?
The Witness.- — jSTo. A member of parliament does not take
part in any government.
Assemblyman McElligott. — T fail to see, Mr. Martens, how he
could serve two masters.
The Witness. — Especially if he wants to make out as his
master's friend — why not ?
By the Attorney-General :
Q. Is there any one of the persons who delivered money to you
from Soviet Russia now in the United States, to your knowledge ?
A. jSTot to mv knowledge.
129
Q. Are there any of the messengers who delivered any of the
messages from the Kussian government to you now in the United
States, to your knowledge ? A. I decline to answer.
The Attorney-General. — I ask the Chairman to direct the wit-
ness to answer.
The Chairman. — I'he Chair so directs.
The Witness. — I decline to answer.
By the Attorney-General:
Q. Are there any messengers to whom you have delivered mes-
sages to your government, or to be delivered to your government,
now in the United States, to your knowledge? A. Not to my
knowledge.
Q. You testified at a former hearing that the original com-
munications between you and the Soviet government were kept by
you, but not kept in your home or your office ? A. That is right.
Q. But that you kept them in a private place ? A. Yes.
Q. Where are such papers kei>t '( A. I decline to answer.
The Chairman. — The Chair instructs you to answer.
The Witness. — I decline to answer.
By the Attorney-General:
Q. I show you a paper, Mr. Martens, which purports to be a
photographic copy of your credentials { A. That is right.
Q. Is that a correct representation of the official paper? A.
(Examining.) Yes, that is correct.
Q. That is in Russian ? A. Yes.
The Attorney-General. — I offer it in evidence.
The Chairman. — Received.
(Photographic copy of credentials of ^[r. ^Martens, referred to,
received in evidence and marked Exhi])it Xo. 347 of this date.)
The Attorney-General. — I will ask the witness to translate it
for us.
The Witness. — The translation is:
" Be it known that the Russian citizen, Ludwig Christian
Alexander Karl ^Nfartens, who is living in the United States
5
130
of Aiiierica, is appointed as a representative of the People's
Coniniissariat for Foreign Atfaii'S in the United States of
America.'' Signed by '' The People's Coinmissionar for
Foreign Affairs, Chicherine," and " Secretary F. Schenkin,"
The Attorney-General. — Will you translate the little heading
that is in the corner of the exhibit ?
The Witness. — '' Russian Socialist Soviet Republic, People's
Commissariat for Foreign Affairs, Bureau of the People's Com-
missariat. 2d of January, 1919, 'No. 918. Moscow, corner of
Spiridonofka and Patrnardsky side street. Telephone number
42996." ^ I '
The Chairman. — The document that you have read in evi-
dence as your certificate of authority is the only authority you
have for acting and carrying on the work you are now carrying on
in the United States?
The Witness. ^ — jSTo, I have another document authorizing me
to make contracts, to make payments, receive money and do all
business concerned with Soviet Russia.
The Chairman. — Who signed that ?
The Witness. — Also the People's Ccmimissariat for Foreign
Affairs.
The Chairman. — And have you that paper?
The Witness. — Yes, not by me, but T think I have it in the
office.
The Chairman. — You can produce it?
The Witness. — Yes.
The Cbairman.^ — And you will produce it ?
The Witness. — Yes,
By Assemblyman IMcElligott :
Q. ^Ir. ]\rartens, is there somebody besides yourself acting as
a representative from Russia in this country? A. !N"olx)dy.
Q. Is the Ambassador who is accredited from the old govern-
ment still acting in that capacitv in Washington ? A. In the
capacity of — what do you mean ?
131
Q. In the capacity of Ambassador as rcprcscuriuii' liussia '. A.
Well, you refer probably to .Mr. Bahkinateif, who was previously
on the Russian Embassy.
Q. Yes. lie is still in \\'ashini>ton, isn't be ^ A. Il(> occupies
that building but that is his only function.
Q. And he is still in communicatimi witii Russi;i, isiTr \\v '.
A. Yes, I think so.
Q. And he has access to the Department of State of this gov-
ernmeut as representing- the Russian government ? A. Yes.
Q. And has he prevented you from obtaining recognition in
Washington'^ A. 1 don't know anything al>out that. Anyhow
Mr. Bahkmatieff does not rei)resent anything in this country.
Q. You have never had any connnunication with him '. A. No.
Q. "^'ou ignore him absolutely^ A. Yes.
Mr. Stevenson. — You nuide a denuind on him for $153,000,000?
The Witness. — I did.
Mr. Stevenson. — A\'liicb was in his custody?
The Witness.— Yes, $150,000,000.
By Assemblyman ^IcElligott:
Q. Did be reply giving bis reasons for not giving you the
$153,000,000? a! Xo, he did nor.
Q. But the fact is that he has possession of that mom\v >. A.
Yes, he has, and he has spent it.
Q. Spent it on government work for Russia '. A. Spent it
mostly for paying salaries for his assistants.
Q. Salaries of pei'sons who represent iiussia \ A. Well, assist-
ing him, doing nothing.
The Cbairnuin. — 1 shoubl like to have that other i)aj)er, ^[r.
Martens, ])laced in evidence which you say shows your authority.
You will produce that and put it in evid(>nc(^ at a subsequent
meeting?
The Witness. — Yes, sir.
By the Att(U'ney-Cieneral :
Q. ^Ir. ^lartens, have aiiv papers connecte(l with your bureau
or with you personally been removed recently froui the state of
Xew Yoi-k { A. Well, now recentlv {
132
Q. Well, since we commenced examining- you here ? I have
forgotten how long- ago that was, Liit sometime in June, wasn't it?
A. ^Xe]\. my rule is Mr. Newton, not to keep any paper that I
don't want any])ody to have in the office, since this raid on our
bureau.
Q. My question is if you have sent out of the jurisdiction of
the State of ISTew York any paper ? A. Yes, I did.
Q. And where did you send such paper ? A. I decline to
answer.
The Chairman. — The Chair instructs the witness to ansAver.
The Witness. — I decline to answer.
By the Attorney-General :
Q, You did send them out of the State of l^ew York, and how
did you send them out of the State of New York ? A. Partly
by messengers, partly by mail,
Q. You know who the messenger war, the r.ame of the man who
tr:ok thf iTi ? A. Yes. sir.
(). Did the same person lake all of the p:ipevs? A. Most of
them.
Q- You could .'zivr the m^me of the iiprsj'u who was the messen-
ger, if you cared to i A. Yes.
O. Wlio was it ? A. T dr'cline to answer.
The Chnivmon. — The ("hr.ir gives the saiDe instructions to the
wifTie^s.
The W;lu?ss. — r decline In answer, ^.[r. Chairman.
By the Attorney-General :
Q- r ihii-'k T askrd you where those i^ipers were. A. Yes, you
did ask me.
O. And you declined lo answer? A. Yes.
0. And llie chairman lias i)istruct'd y(m to answej- and you
tlien drcline to answer? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was anv one of the ]nessenf?;ers an em])lovee of vour office?
A. No.
Q. Or any of them mendiers of your staff? A. No.
O. T^i'd A'ou f-end anv of t^^ns.'^ panel's to Chif'ago? A. No.
Q. T have not guessed the right place? A. (Laughing) No.
133
Q. These j)ai)ei-s tliat you have sent out of the jurisdiction of
the State of New \'nrk ar(> subject to \-our r(H'all. arc thev not?
A. Yes.
Q. And yon have no donht tliat if you sliould need iliciii and
want them, upon your i-e<|ucst lhcv would l)e hrouuhl hack to you?
A. Yes, sii', yes.
By Assend)lynuin McElligott:
(^. Are tliose papcM's (uitsidc ol' tlic Tuitetl States or within tlie
United States? A. Within the United States.
Q. They have not heen sent to another country ? A. Xo.
The Chairman. — Now, Mr. Afartens, can you he here to-mor-
row mornin<i' at 10.30 o'clock ?
The AVitness. — Yes, ^Ir. Chairman.
The Chairman. — And you will l)i'in<> with you tliat other paper
that is to he phieed in evidence ?
The Witness.— Yes, sir.
The Chairman. — Then we will advise you tomorrow morning
what action the Committee will take.
Mv. Clark, you can attend here tomorrow mornini:' ;it 10.30?
-Mr. Clark. — Yes, sir.
The C^liairuuin. — And .Air. Xuortcva. you will attend here to-
morrow morniuii at 10.30 i
Mr. Xuoi'teva. — Yes, sir.
The Chairinan. — The Connuittee stands adjonrncil until 10.30
o'clock tomorrow morninp,-.
(Whereupon at 4.10 p. m. tli" mcvMiuii rece-scd to l-^'iday at
10.30 a. m., Decemher 12ti), liUtt).
134
MEETING OF JOINT LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE OF THE
STATE OF NEW YORK TO INVESTIGATE
SEDITIOUS ACTIVITIES
City Haix. City of jSTew York,
Friday, December 12, 1919.
The Committee met pursuant to recess (11:15 a. m.)
Present:
Assemblyman Martin, Vice-Chairman ;
Assemblyman McElligott,
Senator Walters,
Assemblyman Pellett,
Assemblyman Burr.
A ppearances :
Hon. Charles D. Xewton, Attorney-General ;
Hon. Samuel A. Berger, Deputy Attorney-General;
Archibald E. Stevenson, Esq., Associate Counsel.
]\Ir. Charles A. Hotalino;. Sero-eant-iit-Ai'ms,
The Chairman.— Proceed.
LuDwiG C. A. K. Marte:s's, having been previously duly
sworn, resumed the stand and testified as follows :
By Mr. Berger :
Q. You agreed yesterday, Mr. Martens, to produce another
credential in addition to what you have? A. Yes.
Q. Have you that ? A. Yes.
(Witness produces paper.)
Q. This is a translation ? A. Xo, it is a copy of the original.
Q. Was the original in English ? A, English.
(Mr. Berger hands credential to the Chairman.)
Mr. Berger. — I offer this in evidence, Mr. Chairman.
135
The Chairmau. — Received.
(Copy of credential received in evidence and marked Exhibit
Xo. 348 of this date.)
By the Attorney-General. — I assume it may be copied in
evidence.
By Mr. Berger :
Q. You do not want that paper back, do you ? A. Xo.
(The exhibit referred to is as follows:)
" Republique Russe Federative
Des Soviets
Commissariat du Peuple
Pour
Les Affaires Etkaxgeres
Le -loth May 1919
Xo. o34/k
Moscou
TOl 4-23-65
To Whom It May Concern.
The People's Commissariat for Foreign Affairs of the
Russian Federative Socialist Soviet Republic hereby de-
clares that citiiJen Ludvig Martens is authorized to take in
charge and administration, in the name of the Russan Fed-
erative Socialist Soviet Republic, all movable and real es-
tates of the former Embassy and Consullates and all prop-
erties on the territoiy of the United States of America be-
longing to the Russian Federative Socialist Soviet Repub-
lic. Citizen L. Martens is also entrusted with the right to
solicit and answer claims, within the limits of the United
States of America, in all cases where material interests of
the Russian Federative Socialist Soviet Republic are en-
gaged, to prosecute all civil and criminal cases on l>ehalf
of the Russian Federative Socialist Soviet Republic, in tri-
bunals, courts and other institutions of the United States of
Ainerica.
Citizen L. ^Fartens is entrusted to defray all expenses on
bf'luilf of the Russian Federative Socialist Soviet Republic
136
autl to receive all moneys claimed by the Russian Federative
Socialist Soviet Repnhlie in the United States of America,
and issue receipts.
People's Commissary for Foreign Affairs,
(Signed) G. TCHITCHERm.
Seal of
the
People's
C^onnnissary.
Secretary
(Signed) J. Lewon.
I hereby testify that the above is a true copy of the orig-
inal document.
l^ew York, Dec. 11, 1919.
(Signed) S. :N'U0RTEVA,
Secretary of the Riissiari Soviet Government Bureau."
By ]\rr. Berger:
Q. The paper, Exhibit N'o. 348, is a true and correct copy of
a document that you received from Soviet Russia, signed by
G. Tchitcherin ? A. Yes.
Q. And is the original in English, as this is? A. Yes.
Q. And this is a true and correct copy in every detail of the
paper vou received? A. Yes.
Q. What would you designate this, ^Iv. Martens? A. Oh. I
don't know the exact term to be used for the paper ; but it is sup-
posed to be the power to make all kinds of financial and com-
mercial agreements in America.
Q. Well, there is nothing in this paper that designates you
as an Ambassador, is there? A. ISTo.
Q. Or, as a Consul or Yice-Consul ? A. l^o.
Q. Nor is there anything in this paper that, on the face of it,-
clothes you with any Ambassadorial powers ? A. No. This
paper only refers to the financial and economical matters.
Q. Were there any other papers that you have, that, in your
opinion, clothe you with Ambassadorial powers ? A. The only
paper was the one yesterday.
Q. The one that was offered in evidence yesterday ? A. Yes,
sir.
187
Q. But outside of the one that was oli'ered iu evidence yester-
day and this, you have other credentials? A. No.
Q. Do you know a man named Xathan Chabro, 'Mr. Martens?
A. Xo, I never met him. but 1 know of the existence of this man.
Q. ^'(ni have nxn-er met him ( A. No. I do know of his exist-
ence, thouiih.
Q. Who is he? A. I don't know.
Q. Have you ever communicated with him in any way? A.
No, I have not communicated, but I have received a letter from
him.
Q. When did you receive a letter from him? A. About a
month and a half ago, I think.
Q. Where is he now, if you know ? A. In Sweden.
Q. What part of Sweden? A. Stockholm.
Q. So that all you know about Nathan Chabro is that you are
informed that he is in Sweden and that you received a letter
from him about a month and a half ago ? A. Yes.
Q. Is that all you know about him? A. That is all I know.
Q. You have not changed your determination, Mr. ]\Iartens,
not to answer the various questions that were asked you yesterday ?
A. No. I have not.
Q. Probably you have been informed that a co])y of the order
■svas served on Mr, ]\f alone ? A. T was not informed. I have not
seen !Mr. Mai one.
Q. I will inform you of that fact now, that he was served with
a copy of the order. A. My intention is to appeal.
Q. Your intention is to appeal from the order of ^Fr. .Justice
Green ban m ? A. Yes.
Mr. Bero-er. — T ask that Mr. Martens l)e excused at this time.
I want to call another witness.
The Cliairmaii. — Tlio |)a])er that was iiiti'()(hic('(l in evidence
veslerihiv. as vour ccitilicate of office, is the ]):\\h'v on which you
rely to ;;('t as su])|)osr(l Ambassador, is it?
The Witiuvs. — Yes.
r.y Ass( inblynian .McKlli^ott :
Q. Was tliat received in cnidence?
Tlie Chairman. — ^'e^. that is in eviihMice.
138
The Witness. — That is the original paper.
The Chairman. — Do yon constnie that paper to be snfficient to
allow you to attempt to spread propaganda to influence public
opinion so as to bring pressure on the authorities at Washington
to recognize the Government?
The Witness. — Well, yes, the paper is sufficient for my
activities.
The Chairman. — For your activities ?
The Witness. — Yes.
The Chairman. — In evei*y way ?
The Witness. — Yes.
The Chairman. — All right.
Mr. Berger. — That is all just now, Mr. Martens.
Tlie Chairman. — Mr. Martens, just a moment. If we want to
examine you further and we send you word, I suppose you will be
present ?
The Witness. — Oh, yes.
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