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HARVARD COLLEGE
LIBRARY
GIFT OF THE
GOVERNMENT
OF THE UNITED STATES
us Doc 2.791
Committee on Un-American Activities
House
86th Congress
Table of Contents
(Since these hearings are consecutively paged
they are arranged by page number, instead of
alphabetically by title)
1. American National Exhibition, Moscow, '^/H*^
July 1959
^2. Communist Training Operations, pt.l "^IQ '
5. Testimony of Clinton Edvard Jencks ^T^^
1W5
^4-. Testimony of Arnold Johnson, Legislative
Director of the Communist Party, U.S.A.
5-7. Western Section of the Southern California ^ ^^
District of the Communist Party, pt.1-5
8. Issues Presented by Air Reserve Center ^r-'.
Training !*fein.ual
9-10. Communist Training Operations, pt. 2-5
11-12. Communist Activities Among Puerto Ricans in
New York City and Puerto Rico, pt.1-2
^»*fi
5r^
WESTERN SECTION OF THE SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA
DISTRICT OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMEEICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OE REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-SIXTH CONGKESS
FIRST SESSION
OCTOBER 21, 1959
PART 2
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
(INDEX IN PART 3)
HARVARD COLLEGE LIBRARY
DEPOSITED BY THE
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
MAY 23 I960
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
48192 WASHINGTON : 1960
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
United States House of Representatives
FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania, Chairman
MORGAN M MOULDER, Missouri DONALD L. JACKSON, Californi.^
CXYDE DOYLE. California GORDON H. SCHERER Oluo
EDWIN E. WILLIS. Louisiana WILLIAM E. MILLER New ^ork
wIlLIAM M. TUck. Virginia AUGUST E. JOHANSEN, Michigan
Richard Auti^ss, Staff Director
n
CONTENTS
Part 1
Synopsis ^yj
October 20, 1959 : Testimony of—
Daniel Francis Cohen 1118
Aaron K. Cohen ~_~ ~~_ 1125
Daniel Bessie ~ 1127
Moiselle (J.) dinger I_II I II33
Afternoon session :
Moiselle (J.) dinger (resumed) II37
William Rubin 1155
Ralph Hall ~ ~_ 1153
Adele Allen 11G2
Dr. Murray (Julius) Goldberg I 1162
Gilbert Drummond 1166
Adele Allen (resumed) 116S
Part 2
Synopsis (See Part 1 p. vi)
October 21, 1959 : Testimony of—
Robert Duff Brent 1171
Harriet Blumenkranz ~ 1174
Lona Wells lUj
Milton Kagan lUg
Joe Sniderman ~ 1181
Paul Geiselman, Jr 2182
John (F.) Kranen 1187
Afternoon session :
Marion Miller j^jgc)
Phyllis Lebow ~~ I214
Eleanor Maas ~ ~ 1219
Donald Ornitz I221
Eleanor Maas (resumed) 1223
Part 3
Synopsis (See Part 1 p. vi)
October 22, 1959 : Testimony of—
A. L. Wirin (Statement) I227
Harper (W.) Poulson ~ I229
Afternoon session :
James George McGowan I250
William Wallace Norton, Jr I253
Mark Eugene Sink _ -^261
Jack Burstein ~_ ~ 1263
Adele Kronick Silva ~ lo^i
Index iiiiiiiiiiiziziiiziiiiiiii: — ::: i
in
Public Law 601, 79th Congress
The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress [1946], chapter
753, 2d session, which provides:
Be it enacted by the Senate and Hoiifie of Representatives of the United States
of America iri Congress assembled, * * *
PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Rule X
SEC. 121. STANDING COMMITTEES
17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine Members.
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
*******
(q)(l) Committee on Un-American Activities.
(A) Un-American activities.
(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit-
tee, is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent,
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign coimtries or of a domestic origin and attacks
the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and
(iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any necessary'
remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
Rule XII
LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT BY STANDING COMMITTEES
Sec. 136. To assist the Congress in appraising the administration of the laws
and in developing such amendments or related legislation as it may deem neces-
sary, each standing committee of the Senate and the House of Representatives
shall exercise continuous watchfulness of the execution by the administrative
agencies concerned of any laws, the subject matter of which is within the jurisdic-
tion of such committee; and, for that purpose, shall study all pertinent reports
and data submitted to the Congress by the agencies in the executive branch of
the Government.
IV
RULES ADOPTPID BY THE SGTH CONGRESS
House Resolution 7, January 7, 1959
Rule X
STANDING COMMITTEES
1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Con-
gress,
(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine Members.
*******
Rule XI
POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
*******
18. Committee on Un-American Activities.
(a) Un-American activities.
(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee,
is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (1) the extent, char-
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American prop-
aganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress
in any necessary remedial legislation.
The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi-
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.
*******
26. To assist the House in appraising the administration of the laws and in
developing such amendments or related legislation as it may deem necessary,
each standing committee of the House shall exercise continuous watchfulness
of the execution by the administrative agencies concerned of any laws, the subject
matter of which is within the jurisdiction of such committee; and, for that
purpose, shall study all pertinent reports and data submitted to the House by
the agencies in the executive branch of the Government.
WESTERN SECTION OF THE SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA
DISTRICT OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY
Part 2
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 21, 1959
United States House of Representatives,
SuiiCOMMITTEE OF THE
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Los Angeles, Calif.
public heapjngs
The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met,
pursuant to recess, at 10 a.m., in Courtroom No. 1, United States Post
Office and Federal Building, Los Angeles, Calif., Hon. Morgan M.
Moulder (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
Subcommittee members present: Hon. ^Morgan M. Moulder, of
]\Iissouri, and Hon. Donald L. Jackson, of California.
Staff members present: Frank S. Taveimer, Jr., counsel, and Wil-
liam A. T^Hieeler, investigator.
Mr, Moulder. Are you ready to proceed ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Mr. Robert Duff Brent.
Mr. Moulder. Will you come forward, please ?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
before this committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Brent. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT DUFF BRENT, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ROSE S. ROSENBERG AND EISA KIEVITS
Mrs. Rosenberg. Before any pictures are taken, may I address the
Chair, please ?
I should like to request on behalf of this client that the sessions be
heard in closed hearings, and that no photographs be taken of these
proceedings.
Mr. Moulder. We wish to advise the counsel for the witness that
this is a committee established by the Congress of the United States;
it is an open hearing, and members of the press are entitled to be
present just as the public is entitled to be in the hearing room, or the
courtroom. The request is overruled.
Mrs. Rosenberg. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that with regard to
the second request, that no pictures be taken during the proceedings,
be honored here ?
1171
1172 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA
Mr. Moulder. It is the policy of tlie committee, of course, that dur-
ing the course of testimony, wliile the witness is testifying, the photog-
raphers will refrain from taking pictures.
Mr. Ta\t:xner. Will j^ou state your name, please, sir?
Mr. Brent. Robert Duff Brent.
Mr. Ta^t^nxer. It is noted that you are accompanied by two per-
sons; will each of them identify herself for the record?
Mrs. Rosenberg. I am Rose S. Rosenberg, coimsel here.
]\frs. KiEviTS. I am Elsa Kievits, counsel here.
Mr. Taat:nner. "When and where were you born, Mr. Brent?
Mr. Brent. August 12, 1915, in the city of Washington, District
of Columbia. I am a native-born citizen.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been known by any other name — legal
name?
Mr. Brent. I decline to answer this question on the grounds of the
guarantees to the individual under the United States Constitution,
including, but not limited to, the first and fifth amendments to the
Constitution.
Mr. Tavenner. For purposes of identification, haven't you had
your name legally changed?
]\fr. Brent. The same answer I gave before, for the same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. Is your wife Harriet Blumenkranz ?
Mr. Brent. The same answer for the same reasons.
JNIr. Tavenner. How could it possibly violate any right of yours to
advise the committee Avhat your legal name lias been prior to your
present name?
Mr. Brent. The same answer for the same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, what is your reason?
Mr. Brent. The reason previously stated as to the guarantees of
the individual under the United States Constitution, including, but
not limited to, the first and fifth amendments to the Constitution. I
believe the court reporter will check the fact that that is the answei"
I gave before.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Moulder. This is an introductory question the counsel is really
asking — first, I want to ask 5'ou, are you really married?
Mr. Brent. Yes, sir ; I am.
INIr. Moulder. And to whom are you married ?
]Mr. Brent. I decline to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you honestly believe that to divulge your prior
legal name might tend to incriminate you — that is, an honest answer
to it would tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Brent. I decline to answer this question on the same grounds.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the name under which you were born
in Washington, D.C., on August 12, 1915 ?
Mr. Brent. Same answer, sir, for the same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it Walter Duff Blumenkranz ?
Mr. Brent. The same answer for the same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. Could it be that your reluctance to identify your-
self by that name arises out of the fact that a person by the name of
Walter Blumenkranz, the husband of Harriet Blumenkranz, was iden-
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA 1173
tified here yesterday as a member of the Conmmnist Party by Mrs.
Moiselle dinger ?
Mr. Brent. Same answer, sir, for the same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Mrs. Moiselle dinger ?
Mr. Brent. The same answer, sir, for the same reasons.
Mr. Moulder. Did you hear her testimony here yesterday?
Mr. Brent. The same answer, sir, for the same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. You think your mere presence in this courtroom
might tend to incriminate you — do you honestly contend that?
Mr. Brent. The same answer, sir, for the same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. You have just made up your mind that regardless
of what questions are asked you, you are not going to cooperate with
this committee on anything; isn't that right?
Mr. Brent. Sir, is that a statement or a question ?
Mr. Tavenner. I said, isn't that right ?
Mr. Brent. Same answer, sir, for the same reasons.
Mr. Moulder. May I intervene just on that one point to ask you
the question. Did you hear her testimony ? So often tliis committee,
and I assume other congressional committees, have been accused of
not giving witnesses an opportunity, or they claim that they have
been wrongfully accused and charged at hearings before this com-
mittee and that they do not have an opportunity to come in and
clarify and defend themselves.
If you did hear her testimony you are now being given the op-
portunity to deny or affirm the statements which she made concerning
you. As I understand you then, you don't want to do that ?
Mr. Brent. Mr. Congressman, is that a question or a statement
of policy ?
Mr. Moulder. I am asking a question as to whether or not you
want to do that. Do you wish to deny or affirm the statements which
she made in her testimony concerning you ?
Mr. Brent. The same answer, sir, for the same reasons previously
stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been employed as a school teacher in the
Santa Monica elementary school at any time within the past 12
months ?
Mr. Brent. The same answer, sir, for the same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you so employed now ?
Mr. Brent. No, sir, I am not.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you hold teaching credentials in the State of
California ?
Mr. Brent. The same answer, sir, for the same reasons.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I ask the witness be directed to an-
swer the question as to whether or not he holds teaching credentials
in the State of California.
Mr. Moulder. Yes, that is a fair question. The witness is di-
rected to answer.
Mr. Brent. Yes, sir, I do.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a teacher at Santa Monica elementary
school ?
Mr. Brent. No, sir, I am not.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been within the past 12 months ?
Mr. Brent. No, I have not.
48192— 60— pt. 2 2
1174 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA
Mr, Tavenner. Have you ever taught there, and if so, when ?
Mr. Brent. I decline to answer this question on the grounds previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Ta\^nner. "Wlien I asked you about your teaching within the
past 12 months, I may have made an error in the designation of the
school, ^^^lere have you taught within the past 12 months ?
Mr. Brext. The same answer, sir, for the same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. You mean that you refuse to answer where you
have taught witliin the past 12 months ?
Mr. Brent. I refuse to ; I decline to answer your previous question
on the grounds stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Including the provisions of the fifth amendment?
Mr. Brent. Including, but not limited to.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Are you engaged or have you been engaged
in teaching in the current scliool year, and if so, where?
Mr. Brent. The same answer, sir, for the same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. We have been studying here the extent, character,
and objects of Communist Party activities, particularly within the
Western Section of the Communist Party here at Los Angeles. Are
you a member of the Communist Party within that area, and from the
Santa Monica Club of the Communist Party at this time ?
Mr. Brent. I decline to answer this question for the aforemen-
tioned reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. The committee has received evidence indicating that
all members of the Communist Partj^ are from time to time assigned
to particular activities in mass organizations. The committee's infor-
mation is that one of your particular assignments was within the Inde-
pendent Progressive Party; is that information correct?
Mr. Brent. I decline to answer this question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wliat is the principal activity of the Western Sec-
tion of the Communist Party at this time?
Mr. Brent. I decline to answer this question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Jackson?
Mr. Jackson. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
Mr. Tavenner. Harriet Blumenkranz, please. Will you come for-
ward, please?
INIr. Moulder. Raise your right hand to be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
before this committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Blumenkranz. I do.
TESTIMONY OF HARRIET BLUMENKRANZ, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, FRANK PESTANA
Mr. Pestana. Mr. Chairman, may the record show, Mr. Chairman,
that the same request is made on behalf of Mrs. Blumenkranz that
was made previously with regard to the other witness.
Mr, Moulder. As stated by the Chair, concurred in by my colleague,
Mr. Jackson, I made it clear that these hearings are public hearings,
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA 1 1 75
bein^ conducted by a committee of the United States Congress, to
which the public as well as all members of the press and other people
are entitled to attend. However, your request insofar as tlie photo-
graphs are concerned is granted; while the witness is being heard,
and while she is testifying, no photographs will be permitted.
Mr. Ta-s-ennek. Will you state your name, please?
Mi-s. Blumenkranz. Harriet Blumenkranz.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your last name?
Mrs. Blumenkranz. I thought they were not supposed to take
Mr. Jackson. I think they have finished.
Mrs. Blumenkranz. B-1-u-m-e-n-k-r-a-n-z.
Mr. Tam=;nner. Would counsel accompanying the witness please
identify himself?
Mr. Pestana. Frank Pestana.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you married or single?
Mrs. Bluivienkr^vnz. I refuse to answer the question on the grounds
provided me under the first and fifth amendments of the Constitution.
Mr. Jackson. jNIr. Chairman, I ask the witness be directed as a
matter of proper identification to answer the question as to whether
or not she is married.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer for the reason
stated by Mr. Jackson, and in addition to that, there are certain rules,
of course, governing evidence and admissibility of evidence which
depend upon whether or not a person is married, and, therefore, you
are directed to answer the question.
Mrs. Blumenkranz. I still refuse to answer that on the same rea-
sons as before.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, in order that the record may be abso-
lutely clear on the point of the direction, and to comply with certain
court decisions which indicate that the objection must be made clear
in the record, I again ask that the witness be directed again to answer
the question.
Mr. Moulder. Yes, we feel it is important to know, to have the
information which counsel has asked you, and the witness is directed
to answer. You are also advised that by your refusal to answer you
may be placing yourself in the danger of being cited for contempt of
the Congress. I do not say that in the nature of a threat, merely so
that you may be advised and informed.
Mrs. Blumenkranz. I refuse to answer on the same gromids as
before.
Mr. Jackson. May I ask a question of the witness? It is clear to
you that by your refusal to answer this question, as pointed out by
the chairman of the subcommittee, that you may be placing yourself
in contempt of the Congress ?
Mrs. Blumenkranz. I still refuse to answer.
Mr. Jackson. Is it clear to you — have we made it clear to you that
conceivably you may be laying yourself open to a charge of contempt
by your failure to answer this question ?
Mrs. Blumenkranz. My counsel has advised me in this matter, and
I am following his advice.
Mr. Jackson. Very well. I want the record to show, Mr. Chair-
man, that every effort was made by the committee to indicate to the
1176 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA
witness that a failure to answer this question on identification might
bring a citation for contempt of Congress.
Mr. Moulder. That is correct. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr, Tavenner. Wliat was your maiden name ?
Mrs. Blujmenkranz. Eappaport.
Mr. Tavenner. Then it is true that you have been married ; your
name now is Blumenkranz and your maiden name was Rappaport,
therefore, most likely your name has been changed as a result of mar-
riage ; isn't that correct ?
Mrs. Blumenelranz. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Actually, you are the wife of Robert Duff Brent
whose name was formerly Walter Duff Blumenkranz; isn't that true?
Mrs. Blumenkranz. I refuse to answer that question as previously
stated.
Mr. Ta^tenner. Are you now divorced ?
Mrs. Blumenkranz. I refuse to answer that question on the same
grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born ?
Mrs. Blumenkranz. Torrance, Califoniia, INIarcli 6, 1919.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mrs. Blumenkranz. Santa Monica.
JNIr. Ta\'enner. What is your occupation ?
Mrs. Blumenkranz. I am a dental hygienist.
Mr. Tavenner. During the course of testimony yesterday, INIrs.
Moiselle Clinger identified Harriet Blumenkranz and her husband,
Walter Blumenkranz, as members of the Communist Party, and re-
ferred to certain activities in wliich they Mere engaged; was she cor-
rect insofar as you are concerned ?
Mrs. Blumenkranz. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you live in Santa Monica — in the Santa Monica
area ?
Mrs. Blumenkranz. I previous!}' answered tliat question.
Mr. Tavenner. Answer it again, please.
Mrs. Blumenkranz. Well, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Santa Monica is within the western area of the
Communist Party; are you affiliated with the Western Section of the
Communist Party ?
Mrs. Blumenkranz. I refuse to answer that question for the same
grounds as previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you receive a Communist Party assignment to
work within mass organizations ?
Mrs. Blumenkranz. Same answer as before for the same reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you working within mass organizations in be-
half of the Communist Party now ?
Mrs. Blumenkranz. I refuse to ansAver that for the same reasons as
before.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Jackson ?
Mr. Jackson. I have no questions.
Mr. Moulder. Well, I observe from your testimony if I understand
you, then, you do not wish to avail yourself of tlie opportunity of
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA 1177
denyiiio- or ailirmiiig the testimony ^'iven iiei-c yeslcrday hy a witness
coiicei-iiino;yonr affiliation, participation, and aetivilies in Ihe ('onurni-
nist l*arty'^
Mrs. Bi.uMENKKANZ. Same answer as I j^ave before.
Mr. Moulder. All rii^lit. The witness is excused.
Mr. Tavennek. Lona Wells.
Mr. Moulder. Will tlie witness be swoi-n, please ?
Do you solemnly SAvear tliat the testimony you are aboul (o ;j:i\e
befoi-e this subcommittee \v\U be the truth, the whole trudi, and nolli-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Wells. I do.
TESTIMONY OF LONA WELLS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, ROSE S.
ROSENBERG
iNIrs. Eosenberg. Let the record show" that I am renewing my lerpiest
on both counts for a private session and for no photographs.
JNIr. Moulder. Request denied, for the same reasons.
^Ir. Tavenner. What is your name ?
Mrs. Wells. My name is Lona Wells.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you married or single ?
Mrs. Wells. I refuse to answer tliat question on the grounds of the
first and fifth amendments of the Constitution.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, again as a matter of proper identifica-
tion, as in the case of the previous witness, I ask tliat the witness be
directed to answer the question as to her marital status.
Mr. Moulder. Yes, the witness is directed to answer the ({uestion.
Mrs. Wells. Yes, I am married.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please
identify herself for the record ?
Mrs. Rosenberg. Rose S. Rosenberg.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you reside, please ?
Mrs. Wells. 629 San Juan Avenue, Venice.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Ralph Hall ?
Mrs. Wells. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. Ralph Hall was on the witness stand here yesterday.
When he was asked the question of whether or not he was chairman of
the Communist Party group at Venice, he refused to answer the ques-
tion. Are you a member of that group of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Wells. I refuse to answer that question on all the grounds of
the Constitution that are allowed me.
Mr. Tavenner. You were identified yesterday by the witness, Mrs.
Moiselle dinger, as having been a member of the Communist Party
in 1952, and still a member at the time she left the party in 1956, that
you were section membership director of the Western Division. Is
that a correct identification of you and your activity ?
Mrs. Wells. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of the
first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, have you at any time been a membership
director of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Wells. I refuse to answer that question for the grounds pre-
viously stated.
1178 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA
Mr. Tavennek. Western Division ?
Mrs. Wells. Previously stated.
Mr. Tavexner. Have you recently withdrawn from the Commu-
nist Party, that is, from membership in an organizational way ?
Mrs. Wells. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. TA^^ENNER. Are you still affiliated with the Communist Party,
although you may not be an actual dues-paying member ?
Mrs. Wells. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Ta\t;nner. Are you continuing in your work in the support of
the Commmiist Party just as you did when you were a member and
paying dues?
Mrs. Wells. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. TA^^NNER. Have you performed the work of the Communist
Party within the Civil Rights Congress as an organizer of it?
Mrs. Wells. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Ta%t2Nner. In 1952, working in behalf of the Communist Party,
did you become a member of the State Central Committee of the
Independent Progressive Party ?
Mrs. Wells. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you active as a member of the American
Women for Peace ?
Mrs. Wells. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated, and would like to state here that this committee has no
right to interfere in what my thinking is, or whom my associates
were.
Mr. Jackson. The committee is not interfering in your thinking.
We are trying to determine to what extent you have aided and abetted
an international conspiracy.
Mrs. Wells. Have you aided and abetted the democracy in fighting
in Congress? And what have you done to find people who are re-
sponsible for the lynching of Negroes in the South ? What have you
done since jo\i sat in the Congress, and especially this year on the
issue of civil rights in the schools, Mr. Jackson ?
Mr. Jackson. My voting record on civil rights is excellent. And
yours is a very fine propaganda speech ; How long did you rehearse
it?
Mrs. Wells. I didn't rehearse it, Mr. Jackson.
Mr. Jackson. We have heard it a great many times.
Mrs. Wells. But as a Negro woman I have every right which you
have given me to sit here, an opportunity to speak out of the sufferings
of the Negro people, to speak out of the denials, and out of the im-
poverishment, out of the humiliation, and out of the insults that have
been cast at Negro people, and Negro youngsters are still denied the
rights to go to school on a free and equal basis, and you come here and
investigate me. Why aren't you investigating this situation ? This is
a situation that it seems to me is more important. I am unimportant,
T am nobody, but this situation is one that the world is looking at, and
is looking at America, because they are not living up to what they
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA 1179
are supposed to stand for. You preach noble words about civil
liberties, and you go far afield to clean up other people's yards, when
your own stinks with the stench of discrimination.
Mr. Jackson. Isn't it a wonderful thing that you have sueli a forum
as the Congress of the United States to which you can deliver a tirade
of that sort ? You would last about 1 minute in the coimtry to which
our evidence indicates you pay your allegiance.
My record on voting on civil rights is an excellent record. I voted
for every civil rights issue on which I have had an opportunity to
vote. However, that has nothing to do with this inquiry. But you are
a very fortunate woman to live in this land.
That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. MoiTLDER. Well, just a moment. Will you be seated, please?
You have made a long statement, and we have been very tolerant
and cooperative with you to permit you to do it. We are trying to
find out some facts concerning Communist Party activities, and what
knowledge or information you may have in connection with its activi-
ties. So far you have refused to answer any of those questions.
Now, I wish to ask you this question. Do you have any knowledge
or information of any subversive activities or efforts on the part of
Communist Party leaders to take action, or to teach the overthrow of
our present form of government ?
Mrs. Wells. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Moulder. Then your citizenship is not very patriotic and loyal.
You say you will not tell us that if you knew about it ?
Mrs. Wells. Mr. Moulder, I may disagree withwhat you think,
but I would defend your right to the death, your right to defend it.
Mr. Jackson. We have that in common.
Mr. Moulder. All right, defend it.
Witness excused.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Milton Kagan.
Mr. Moulder. Hold up your right hand to be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to
give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God ?
Mr. Kagan. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MILTON KAGAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ROSE S. EOSENBERG
Mrs. Rosenberg. May the record show, Mr. Chairman, that I am
renewing my two motions previously made ?
Mr. Moulder. Yes, the record will so show, and the request is
denied.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Kagan. Milton Kagan.
Mr. Tavenner. Let the record show that the witness is accom-
panied by the same counsel as appeared for the last witness,
1180 INVESTIGATION OF COMISIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA
When and where were you born, Mr. Kag:an ?
Mr. Kagax. September 1, 1935, Milwaukee, Wis.
Mr. TA^'ExxER. Were do you now reside ?
Mr. Kagax. Downey.
Mr. Taa-exner. In the State of California ?
Mr. Kagax. Yes.
Mr. Ta%t5X"xer. How long have you lived in the State of California ?
Mr. Kagax. "Wliat is the purpose of that question ?
Mr. Ta's^xxer. Mr. Chairman, may I have a direction to answer?
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer. It isn't necessary
for this committee to be ridiculed by witnesses with such inquiries.
We ask the question because it may depend upon your answer as to
wliat other questions we want to ask you concerning tlie subject matter
of our investigation. We consider that insolent and impudent.
Mrs. Kosexberg. Mr. Chairman, may I be heard on that?
Mr. ]MouLDER. For someone to say, What is the purpose of asking a
question of where I live, and what State I reside in. Now, you are
a resident and an American citizen, aren't you ?
Mr. Kagax. Yes.
Mr. Tavexxer. Do you wish to plead the fifth amendment on that?
Mrs. RosEXBERG. May I be heard on that ?
Mr. ]\IoTTLDER. No, I am asking the witness a question, are you an
American citizen?
Mr. Kagax. Yes.
Mr. Moulder. In what State do you reside?
Mr. Kagax. I previously answered that question, in California.
Mr. Moulder. I thought you asked the purpose of that question.
]Mr. Taatexxer. The question was, How long he resided in Cali-
fornia. I ask the witness be directed to answer.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
Mr. Kagax. Approximately 10 years.
Mr. Jacksox. How long?
Mr. Kagax. Ten years.
Mr. Taat3Xxer. Will you give the committee, please, a statement on
your formal educational training?
Mr. Kagax. Two years of college.
]Mr. TA^^EXXER. Where?
Mr. Kagax. U.C.L.A.
]\Ir. Tavexxer. When did you complete your college training?
Mr. Kagax. I left the university — I believe it was in 1956.
Mr. Ta^t.xxer. What is your occupation ?
Mr. Kagax. Retail clerk.
Mr. Tavexxer. Are you a member of the Labor Club of the West-
ern Section of the Communist Party at this time ?
]\Ir. Kagax. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of the
first and fifth amendments of the Constitution.
Mr. Ta\t3xxer. Were you a member of tlie Labor Club of the West-
ern Section of the Communist Party in 1958 ?
Mr. Kagax. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavexxer. You have actually moved your residence since 1958
out of the Western Section of the Communist Party, have you not?
Mr. Kagax. I I'ofuse, I refuse to answer that question on the same
jrrounds.
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA 1181
Mr. Tavenner. Were you engaged in the work of the Educational
Committee of the "Western Section of the Communist Party in 1958 ?
Mr. Kagan. I refuse to answer that question on the previous
grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. As early as 1953 were you a member of the student
division of the Labor Youth League?
Mr. Kagan. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party at this
time?
Mr. Kagan. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Jackson ?
Mr. Jackson. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
Next witness,
Mr. Taa-enner. JNIr. Joe Sniderman, will you come forward, please?
Mr. Moulder. Will jow be sworn as a witness, please?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to
give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Sniderman. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOE SNIDERMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
EOSE S. EOSENBERG
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state and spell your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Sniderman. My name is Joe Sniderman, S-n-i-d-e-r-m-a-n.
Mr, Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please
identify herself for the record ?
Mrs. Rosenberg. Rose S. Rosenberg — b-e-r-g.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Sniderman ?
Mr. Sniderman. June 2, 1914, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Mr,_ Ta\-enner. When did you first come to the United States to
make it the place of your residence ?
Mr. Sniderman. I believe at approximately the age of 8, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien, what year ?
Mr. Sniderman. I was 8 years old; that would make it about 1922,
Mr, Tavenner, Are you a naturalized American citizen ?
Mr, Sniderman. Yes, sir.
Mr, Tavenner. When and where were you naturalized ?
Mr. Sniderman. I believe, sir, it was in 1940.
Mr. Tavenner. Where?
Mr. Sniderman. At Detroit, Mich.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere do you now reside ?
Mr. Sniderman. In west Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in the State of California ?
Mr. Sniderman. Approximately 10 years.
Mr, Ta^^nner, Will you state briefly your educational background ?
Mr, Sniderman I am a high school graduate,
Mr. Tavenner. What is your position ?
Mr. Sniderman. I am a clerk.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Moiselle dinger has advised the committee
that during the period of time in which she was in the Communist
48192— 60— pt. 2 3
1182 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA
Party you were active in Conimunist Party affairs. Let me first ask
you, are you acquainted with lier ?
Mr. Sniderman. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. Was she correct in stating that you were an active
member of the Communist Party ?
Mr, Sniderman. I refuse to answer that on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, were you an active member ?
Mr. Sniderman. I refuse to answer again on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party now,
engaged in Communist Party activities within the Western Section
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Sniderman. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Sniderman, what did you give as your occupa-
tion?
Mr. Sniderman. Retail clerk.
Mr. Jackson. Are you a member of the Retail Clerks' Union?
Mr. SnidermaJ^ . Yes.
Mr. Jackson. Do you hold any office in that union ?
Mr. Sniderman. No, sir.
Mr. Jackson. I have no further questions.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
The committee will recess for a period of about 5 minutes.
(Short recess taken.)
Mr, Moulder. The committee will be in order.
The Chair recognizes Congressman Jackson for a statement,
Mr. Jackson. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to acknowledge the presence in the hearing room
of the distinguished Los Angeles collector of customs, Col, Carl F.
^Vliite, and to express the appreciation of the committee for his many
courtesies to us on this occasion, and on occasions in the past.
Thank you, Mr, Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. We are honored to have you with us, Colonel White.
Colonel White. Thank you. The pleasure is mine, Mr. Chairman,
Mr. Tavenner, Mr. Paul Geiselman,
Mr. Moulder. Will you raise your right hand to be sworn, please?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
before this subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr, Geiselman. I do.
TESTIMONY OP PAUL GEISELMAN, JR., ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ROSE S. ROSENBERG
Mrs. Rosenberg, Let the record show, Mr, Chairman, that I am
renewing the two motions previously made.
Mr, Moulder, Yes, As I understand it, you are requesting that
this testimony be taken in executive session and that no photographs
be taken of the witness.
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA 1183
Mrs. KosENBERG. That is correct, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. The request is denied insofar as executive session
is concerned, and, of course, tlie photograpliers are instructed not to
take pictures of the witness during the course of his testimony.
Mrs. KosENBERG. Thank 3^ou.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you please state and spell your name?
Mr. Geiselman. Paul Geiselman, Jr. — G-e-i-s-e-1-m-a-n. That, by
the way, is an old Pennsylvania Dutch name, goes back to 1732.
Mr. Tavenner. You lived in Philadelphia for quite a period of
time, didn't you ?
Mr. Geiselman. I did.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you leave Philadelphia ?
Mr. Geiselman. 1947.
Mr. Ta\tenner. And you came here from Philadelphia ?
Mr. Geiselman. I did.
Mr. Tavenner. And while in Pliiladelphia were you an active
member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Geiselman. Well, as I indicated, we came over here a long
time ago, and the Constitution, and preserving its rights, and I wiU
take both the first, fifth, and any other amendment which
Mr. Moulder. I have trouble hearing the witness, and I am sure
the reporter has trouble hearing. I believe it will be clearer if you
just move a little farther away from the microphone.
Mr. Geiselman. I will take the first and fifth amendments on that.
Mr. Moulder. Can you speak a little louder ?
Mr, Geiselman. I will take the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden-
tify herself for the record ?
Mrs. Rosenberg. Rose S. Rosenberg — b-e-r-g.
Mr, Tavenner. Now, while living in Philadelphia did you become
acquainted with Mr. Di Maria ?
Mr, Geiselman, I will have to decline to answer that on the basis
of the same reasons I gave for the other one,
Mr. Moulder. May I interrupt? The deputy marshal has ad-
vised and informed me that the young lady sitting in the back row
insists upon standing upon the benches. Of course, we are trying to
have all the respect for this United States courtroom and for the prop-
erty and furniture that is in the courtroom, and she is instructed and
advised to take her seat as other people sitting in the courtroom or
else she will have to be ejected from the courtroom.
Mr. Ta^t:nner. This committee received the testimony of Samuel
Di Maria in Philadelphia in 1952. In the course of his testimony he
was asked who were the officers of that branch, and that was a branch
of the Communist Party to which the questioner was referring, and
Mr. Di Maria replied Lucia Geiselman and Paul Geiselman. Now,
this referred to the year 1939— this doesn't go back to 1732 that you
mentioned a moment ago.
Mr. Geiselman. It was quite a while back, though.
Mr. Tavenner. It was 1939. Were you an officer, and was Lucia
Geiselman an officer of the branch of the Communist Party in Phila-
delphia in 1939 ?
Mr, Geiselman. I will have to claim my rights under the first and
fifth amendments.
1184 ESrVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST CALIFORNIA
Mr. TA^'ENXER. Then did you later become chairman of that branch
of the Commmiist Party of Philadelphia before you came out here
to California ?
Mr. Geiselman. I will have to claim the same privilege.
Mr. TA^'EN^rER. Are you Paul, junior, or Paxil senior?
Mr. Geiselman. Junior.
Mr. Tavenner. I think that the record should disclose further in-
formation regarding that testimony because there could be confusion
between Senior and Junior. In order to determine whether or not Mr.
Di Maria was testifying about your father or yourself, I asked Mr.
Di Maria this question :
"Earlier in your testimony you referred to two persons by the
name of Geiselman, a man and a woman. Were they husband and
wife?"
Mr. Di Maria responded, "No, sir ; they were brother and sister."
I then said to Mr. Di Maria, "I understand there are two persons
by the name of Geiselman, Junior and Senior. Wliich of the two did
you refer to?"
To which Mr. Di Maria responded, "Jimior." So, he was identify-
ing you by that testimony.
Now, were you a member of the Communist Party in Philadelphia
prior to your coming to California ?
Mr. Geiselman. I have to take the privilege of the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you reside at 6016 North Tenth Street in
Philadelphia in 1942?
Mr. Geiselman. I have to claim the privilege of the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. Weren't you so active and prominent in Communist
affairs in the city of Philadelphia that you participated in plans for
the formation of the Tom Paine School located in Philadelphia ?
Mr. Geiselman. I have to take the privilege of the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. I think the record should show, Mr. Chairman, that
the Tom Paine Scliool of Social Science has been cited by the At-
torney General as an adjunct of the Communist Party, and is a school
known to be controlled and organized by the Communist Party.
While in Philadelphia did you become acquainted with Wilbur
Lee Mahaney, Jr. ?
JVIr. Geiselman. I have to take the privilege of the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. On July 30, 1954, Wilbur Lee Mahaney, after hav-
ing previously appeared before the committee and refused to testify,
later appeared and testified fully with respect to his knowledge of the
Communist Party activities in Philadelphia. I should like to read
to you a portion of Mr. Mahaney's testimony as the basis for a ques-
tion or two to you :
Mr. Mahanet. The next meeting place that I recall was in northeast Phila-
delphia. I don't know whether you call it the Old York Road or Champlost
section. I attended meetings there for a while. That would be around 1938-39.
Possibly it might even run over in 1940.
Mr. KuNziG. At whose house did you attend the meetings?
Mr. Mahaney. I would say the house was owned or rented by a Mr. Geisel-
man. That was Paul Geiselman, Sr. That was the place where we had meet-
ings but Mr. Geiselman was not a member of the group so far as I knew. His
son, Paul, Junior, met wltli us.
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA 1185
Mr. KuNziG. It was at the home of Paul Geiselman, Sr., but the person who
was the member was Paul Geiselman, Jr.?
Mr. Mahaney. He was the person most active when we met ; he and his sister
whose name was Lucia.
Mr. Geiselman, was the testimony of Mr. Mahaney which I have
just read to you true, or was it false ?
Mr. Geiselman. I have to take the privilege of the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Tavennek. You have stated that you came to California about
the year 1942, 1952, I beg your pardon. No, I think you said 1942,
didn't you ? Restate that, please, it would save us the trouble of going
back and looking it up in the testimony.
Mr. Geiselman. Is there a question ?
Mr. Tavenner. I think you said 1942; is that correct?
Mrs. Rosenberg. Is there a question before him now ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, indeed, repeated two or three times.
Mr. Geiselman. I came to California about 1947.
Mr. Tavenner. 1947, I beg your pardon, then. Wliere did you
reside between 1942 and 1947, in Philadelpliia?
Mr. Geiselman. I claim the privilege of the first and fifth amend-
ments.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, when you came to California in 1947, did
3'ou continue and renew your association with the Communist Party ?
Mr. Geiselman. I claim the privilege of the first and fifth amend-
ments.
Mr. Tavenner. We have heard testimony during this hearing, and
quite a bit of testimony during other hearings, regarding the renewed
or new organization of the Communist Party within the Southern
California District. We have learned of the existence of a district
comicil composed of 62 members. We have heard considerable about
various meetings that they have held, and work that they partici-
pated in. Have you at any time attended meetings of the executive
committee of the Western Division of the Los Angeles Communist
Party?
Mr. Geiselman. I have to take the privilege of the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. Didn't you attend such a meeting on May 8, 1951,
at 3677 Military, Los Angeles?
]\Ir. Geiselman. I take the privilege of the first and fifth amend-
ments,
Mr. Tavenner. Wliile a member of the Communist Party were you
assigned to solicitation of signatures for the Independent Progressive
Party to participate in elections ?
Mr. Geiselman. I have to take the privilege of the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party in Los
Angeles now?
Mr. Geiselman. I have to take the privilege of the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, having refused to answer any questions re-
lating to the activities of the Communist Party, about your own
participation in the Communist Party in the Los Angeles area, I
think it would be a loss of time, a waste of time to ask you about the
present objectives of the Communist Party in tliis area, so, I have no
further questions, Mr. Chairman.
1186 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA
Mr. MoTJLDER. Any other questions?
Mr, Jackson. No questions.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
Mr. Tavenner. Call Mr. John Kranen, please.
]Mr. ISIargolis. The flashes of the camera bother my client's eyes,
and he objects to it being done. Will the committee please direct the
newspapermen not to do it, the flashbulbs ?
Mr, ]MouiJ)ER. Are you askmg that no pictures be taken?
]Mr. Margolis. No, none that have flashbulbs.
Mr. Moulder. Of course, we can't control the photographers in
taking pictures, that is within their own prerogative, that is their
own right,
Mr, Margolis. You control this hearing room, and you can deter-
mine whether or not this man has to subject himself to something that
is going to injure him.
Mr. Jackson. I would suggest the gentleman close his eyes if he
can't stand the light.
Mr. Margolis. Just a second, suppose you use some courtesy here,
this man objects to having any flashes taken with the camera flash.
Mr. Jackson. Call for the regular order of business, call the
witness.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is called.
Mr. Margolis. We will come up there as soon as you get these men
away from there. We are ready to testify as soon as those men are
away from there, I will make that clear.
Mr. Moulder. Call the witness.
Mr. Margolis. As soon as these people who are going to injure my
client are away from there ; I want to make that clear for the record,
we are ready.
Mr. Moulder. Call the witness again.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Kranen, will you come forward, please ?
Mr. Margolis. Mr. Kranen is iu the witness room and will appear
as soon as the men with the flash bulb lights are away from the place
where he has to sit.
Mr. MouiJ)ER. Have the record show the witness has been called
three times, and refuses to appear before the committee in accordance
with the terms of the subpena.
Mr. Margolis. He does not refuse, he will sit right here then to
answer the questions. He does not refuse to answer any questions
of the conmiittee at this point.
Mr. Jackson. Let us get this record in some sort of shape.
Mr. Margolis. Let me make it clear, he is prepared to testify. The
only thing he objects to is sitting down there and having dozens of
flash lights shooting off in his face. He objects to that, and will not
submit to that, but he is prepared to testify, let me make that abso-
lutely clear.
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA 1187
Mr. MouiiDER. Of course, we will not permit counsel to set the rules
or terms upon which his client will come forward to testify. He has
been called three times. Call the next witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Jack Burstein.
Mr. Margolis. May I ask if the witness is excused ?
Mr. Moulder. No, tlie witness is not excused.
Mr. Margolis. Then he is here prepared to testify.
Mr. Ta\^nner. The witness hasn't appeared yet.
Mr. Margolis. He is still here prepared to testify. If the witness
lias not been excused, he is still here.
Mr. Jackson. Regular order.
Mr. Margolis. If the witness is excused, he will leave.
Mr. Moulder. Call the next witness.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Jack Burstein.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Jack Burstein ?
The witness is not in the courtroom,
Mr. Tax^nner. Do you represent Mr. Burstein ?
Mr. Margolis. I do not know.
Mr. Tavenner. I didn't think so. I think possibly that I know
who is representing Mr. Burstein, he is expecting the witness to be
called this afternoon.
jMr. Moulder. We will recall the other witness.
Mr. Tavenner. All right. I would like to recall Mr. John Kranen.
Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about
to give to this subcommittee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Kranen. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN (F.) KRANEN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
BEN MARGOLIS
Mr. Moulder. Now, may I say that during the testimony of this
witness the photographers will not take any pictures.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Kranen. John Kranen.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your name ?
Mr. Kranen. K-r-a-n-e-n.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden-
tify himself for the record ?
Mr. Margolis. Ben Margolis.
Mr, Tavenner. Wlien and where were you born, Mr. Kranen ?
Mr. Kranen. I was bom in Belgium ; Antwerp, Belgium.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien did you first come to this country ?
Mr. Kranen. 1927,
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien were you born, what is the date of your
birth? ^
Mr. Kranen. December 31, 1899.
Mr, Tavenner, Are you a naturalized American citizen ?
Mr, Kranen, Yes,
Mr, Tavenner, Wlien and where were you naturalized ?
Mr. Kranen. In New York City in 1944 ; that is to the best of my
recollection.
1188 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA
ISIr. Tavenner. 1944. We have received testimony here from sev-
eral individuals who lived within the vicinity of Venice. We under-
stand there is a club of the Communist Party which takes on the name
of the place, the Venice Club, and that club is one of the units of the
Western Section of the Communist Party, which in turn is a unit
of the Southern California District of the Communist Party. I asked
Mr. Ralph Hall, a previous witness, whether or not he is at the present
time chairman of that group of the Communist Party. Do you know
whether or not he is ?
^Ir. Keaxex. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
the first and the fifth amendments, and all the amendments of the
Constitution.
JNIr. Taa-exx'er. You are in a position to know whether or not he
is chairman of that club of the Communist Party ; are you not ?
Mr. Kraxen". I decline to answer that question on the same grounds
as stated before.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, you are a member of the Venice Club of the
Communist Party at this time ; aren't you ?
Mr. Kranen. I decline to answer this question on the grounds of
the first and fifth amendments.
]Mr. Tavenx^er. Were you a delegate in 1957 to the Los Angeles
Countj^ P^rty convention representing the Western Division of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Kranen. I decline to answer that question on the previously
stated grounds.
Mr. Ta\tenner. How long have you lived in California ?
Mr. Kranen. Twelve years.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Prior to that where did you reside ?
Mr. Kranen. New York.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Bronx Section of the
Communist Party in New York City from 1945 to 1947?
Mr. Kraxex. I am not going to answer any further questions about
my political affiliations or my political beliefs.
Mr. Tavexxer. I haven't asked you any questions about your
political beliefs. I am asking about activities.
Well, let me ask you this. Here in California weren't you expelled
from the Communist Party for a period of time in 1952 ?
Mr. Kraxex. Same answer.
]Mr. Tavexxer, Then you came back and joined again; isn't that
right?
Mr. Kraxex. Same answer.
Mr. Tavexxer. You were readmitted or reinstated, is that right?
JNIr. Kraxex. Same answer.
Mr. Jackson. And for the same reasons ?
j\Ir. Kraxex. For the same reasons that I will not answer any ques-
tions pertaining to my political beliefs or political affiliations.
Mr. Jackson. Well, let's make it
Mr. Krax^en. And the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Taa^xxer. All right. I have no further questions.
Mr. Moulder. Any questions?
]Mr. Jacksox. No, no questions.
Mr. ^NFouLDER. Tlie witness is excused.
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA 1189
Do you have another witness we can hear before recess at noon?
Mr. Tavenneii. P]ither of the witnesses who would be available
would be too long, I think, to start before luncli.
Mr, jNIoulder. Wliat do you wish to do ?
Mr. Tavenner. I would say adjourn early and come back early.
We would normally adjourn about a quarter to 12 anyway.
JNIr. INIouLDER. Then you want to adjourn?
Mr. Taahnnek. Yes, by 1 :30 I think we would be able to be back.
Mr. Moulder. The committee will recess until 1 :30 p.m.
(Thereupon, at 11 :o5 a.m., Wednesday, October 21, the subcommit-
tee recessed to reconvene at 1 :30 p.m. of the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION, WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 21, 1959
Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order.
Would you call your first witness, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. Tavexner.'Ycs, sir. Mrs. Marion Miller, will you come for-
ward, please?
Mr. MouLDEFt. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give to this committee shall be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Miller. I do.
TESTIMONY OE MAEION MILLER
Mr. Tavenner. You arelMrs. Marion Miller?
Mrs. Miller. That is correct.
]\Ir. Tavenner. Wliere do you reside, Mrs. Miller ?
Mrs. Miller. At 10716 Esther Avenue, West Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Los Angeles ?
Mrs. Miller. Since February of 1946.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a native of the State of California ?
Mrs. Miller. ISTo, I was born in New York City, lived for a very
brief period in Detroit, Mich., then my family moved to Florida
where I lived until I graduated from college, and where I taught
school for several years. My husband and I were married in Florida,
and after the war we came to Los Angeles to make our home and raise
our family.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Miller, the committee is well aware of the fact
that you previously testified as a Government witness before the Sub-
versive Activities Control Board. What cases were involved when
you testified ?
Mrs. Miller. I testified in October of 1955, in Washington, D.C.,
in the case of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born. I testified particularly in relationship to the Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, and also I testified at a
later date in regard to the California Emergency Defense Com-
mittee.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. The principal purpose in the first case was
to connect the local organization with the national organization?
Mrs. Miller. That is correct.
48192— 60— pt. 2-
1190 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA
Mr. TA^^l^rNER. The local organization was denying any connection
with the parent organization ?
Mrs. IMiLLER. Right, and also
Mr. Ta-\-exxer. It was almost a case of repudiating the parentage,
wasn't it?
Mrs. jVIiller. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. You testified in those two cases. Why was it that
3'ou had an opportunity for knowledge on the subject of your testi-
mony in those two cases ?
Mrs. Miller. In 1950 I was approached by the Commmiist- front
organization, the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, but, at
which time, I did not know its nature, its true nature, having been
active in women's organizations for many years, and having become
an official of a large prominent national women's organization,
Pioneer Women's Organization, I believe I was the target for the
Communist Party, and in particular, for the Los Angeles Commit-
tee for Protection of Foreign Born. I later learned that it is the
primary purpose of this conunittee, as well as all other Communist
front organizations, to infiltrate good respectable groups.
I received a letter in October of 1950 in writing me to attend a re-
organizational conference. As I read the letter, the brochure, it
wasn't exactly a letter, I have a copy of it here, and looked, and par-
ticularly as I read parts of it, I might just, not having been familiar
with the Communist vernacular, have filed it in the wastepaper basket.
But when my husband saw it — may I read a part of this ?
jNIr. TA^^ENNER. Yes. Yes, I would like for you to develop that as
fully as you can.
Mrs. Miller (reading) :
This monstrous situation is tlie result of deliberate propaganda by the war-
makers and architects of the police state who spread lies and slander about the
foreign born radicals and minority peoples in order to confuse and divide the
American people so that the rights of citizens and noncitizens to freedom of
thought in association be destroyed. The Immigration Service of the Justice
Department operating in its official sphere of oppression says to some three
million foreign born non-citizens, "Think as we dictate, do as we say or we
will deport you" ; to millions of naturalized citizens it repeats this warning,
threatening revocation of citizenship.
I have since learned how false these statements were, and also have
learned that neither the committee nor the Communist Party believed
in what they had written, because I later learned that there were
approximately 150 deportees who were under, let's say, the protec-
tion of the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, and in every
case except with one exception that I know of personally, it was be-
cause of security provisions. And I felt and learned later, that the
purpose of writing such a call to innocent people such as myself who
never had heard of Communist front organizations, or didn't know
too much about communism itself, was really to inject fear into the
hearts and minds of these millions of foreign bom people in order
to gain their support and their sympatliies.
])id you want me to go on, how I happened to attend?
Mr. TA^'EN]srER. Yes, I would be very happy to have you continue.
Mrs. Miller. As I said before, I would have just tossed this call
in the wastepaper basket, it didn't mean too much to me,
but my husband having served as a volunteer undercover agent
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA 1191
since ld?/J, duriiio; the time particularly of the Ilitler-Stalin pact, and
he knew all of the, let's say, falseness of this Communist ideology,
and recognized the language immediately, and he said, "Mary, I just
think this is some Communist front. I believe we ought to check it
out." And he did M'hat his instinct told him to, he called the FBI,
and learned that he was absolutely correct in his suspicions,
I was advised a day afterwards by one of the agents of the Federal
Bureau of Investigation, who even enlisted my aid in attending this
conference. I hesitated at first, never having gone to any Conmumist
front organization knowingly, I said, "I am not an actress, and I don't
know how successful I can do this, and I don't know whether I want
to associate with these kind of people." But later I came to realize
that I had a valuable opportmiity in attending this conference. Here
our boys and our men and our husbands and sons were fighting in
Korea, giving their lives, and how could I refuse to attend the meet-
ing, which was a very simple thing to do, as a housewife, when we
have Communists right here in our own backyard ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. So, as a result of that request from the Fed-
eral Bureau of Investigation, you began to work for it within the
field of communism.
Mrs. Miller. Actually, what happened, when I attended the first
meeting, and I was more than convinced of its insidious purposes,
having heard people get up and denounce our invasion of Korea, and
having heard Communist fmictionaries stand up and give donations,
contributions to this so-called committee to protect the foreign born,
you know, or for the protection of foreigii born, I began to put two
and two together, and realized that this really was a dangerous
organization.
Delphine Murphy Smitli, who was newly elected at that time
Mr. Tavenner. Who ?
Mrs. Miller. Delphine Murphy Smith, who had been just elected
at that particular organizational conference in October of 1950, hap-
pened to be sitting right next to me. She asked me if I would come
down and help her in the office. This happened just to play right
into my hands. I had no intention of doing it just more than this one
time, but the thing sort of snowballed, and having been invited to
assist her in her clerical work, and with the secretarial duties, I just
couldn't refuse tliis wonderful opportunity that I knew had just some-
how fallen into my lap. I agreed to go down, and I went weekly,
several times a week, spending the entire day helping her with her
clerical work in the office.
At that time, the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born was
just a little corner in the Civil Rights Congress' office, which I, of
course, knew to be a notorious Communist front organization. And
actually, it even worked out of each other's bank account, and were
using the same office equipment, and moved, of course, a little later.
Then I was invited to attend the executive board meetings, and at
the very first board meeting Delphine, having been rather satisfied
with my secretarial duties, nominated me for, she had me nominated,
rather, because she was president, she couldn't be in the position of
nominating me for recording secretary, which office I held until I
dropped out of the organization.
Mr. Tavenner. You dropped out in what year ?
1192 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA
Mrs. Miller. Actually until I testified I was, let's say, an ac-
cepted member of the Communist Party, and that was in October
of 1955 when I testified in Washington, until I actually walked on
to the witness stand.
Mr. Taa-enister. Will you tell the committee, please, just the cir-
cumstances under which 3'ou became a full member of the Communist
Party?
^li"s. jMiller. As I said before, I became very active in the front
organization in doing all the little jobs that were expected of me,
not onl}' secretarial duties, but trying to enlist the financial support
and the enthusiastic support, the moral support of many people who
were not Communists in the committee. This is something any of us
don't know, but actually, the committee and the Communist Party
did not want me identified as a Communist, and this is why I was
used, because I was already a so-called respectable citizen of Los
Angeles, and nobody knew of my activities within the framework of
this front organization or the party itself. The party knew that it
couldn't really utilize me to the fullest unless it had me within its
grasp, and as an actual member of the party.
About a year or less than a year after I first went down to the office,
I was asked by the bail fund chairman, Morris Goodman,
Mr. Tavenner. What is that name, Morris Goodman?
Mrs. Miller. Morris Goodman — M-o-r-r-i-s G-o-o-d-m-a-n.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wliat position did you say he held ?
Mrs. Miller. He was bail fund chairman.
Mr. Tavenner. Bail fund chairman ?
Mre. IVIiller. For the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of
Foreign Bom.
He asked me at that time if I had ever considered joining the
Communist Party. And, of course, I knew that this was the mo-
ment that really meant I could get deeper into the understanding
of the Communist conspiracy, and so I played along with him and
said, well, I had thought of it, but I had never thought I would be
so privileged to be actually asked. I said, "What do I have to do?
IVliat will be expected of me?" And he even listed some of my
duties. Then he asked if my husband, Paul, would be interested.
I said, "Well, I couldn't answer for my husband, he would have to
answer for himself." So, he came to our home. We had a long
discussion. And he felt that I had shown sincere interest in my
fellowmen, and that I would be a good noble Communist, and one
that would serve the cause.
He told us that we should start reading Communist literature, to
go down to the Progressive Book Shop, and I had been a subscriber
to the People's World already, Delphine Smith saw to that, the first
time I went down to the committee's office she had me subscribe to
that immediately. And so he just sort of unofficially advised us as
to what we should read, and came and checked on us every so often
to see that we were on the riglit track.
He said we would be contacted in the very near future by one of the
Communist Party coordinators of that area, but, it took some time,
because that was the same period in which the Smith Act defendants
had been arrested, and were in jail. They were preparing for their
trial. So, we were a little slow in getting into the party because of
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA 1193
this reason. And also the Communist Party was extremely sus-
picious of people Avho might be serving, just as I happened to be
serving, as an undercover agent, so they were makmg very sure,
making a very thorough survey and checlc. But then not long after-
wards Paul and I were accepted as dues-paying meeting-going Com-
munist members of the party. In fact, we were contacted by one
woman before by the name of Liz Erger.
Mr. Tavennek. Will you please spell it?
Mrs. Miller. E-r-g-e-r.
Mr. Tavenner. Erger — E-r-g-e-r?
Mrs. Miller. Yes, who came to us and gave us the real, let's say,
the checkover. She asked us numerous questions, and it is almost
unbelievable the long list of questions that are expected of an appli-
cant for the Communist Party. And I sort of laugh when I hear
people say they don't like to talk about their political views because
I just cannot consider it a political party, since when do you have
to go through such a scrutmy to be accepted by a political party ?
Mr. Tavenner. This was a matter of security
Mrs. Miller. Absolutely.
Mr. Tavenner. of the Communist Party, to go back into your
history and background ?
Mrs. Miller. Yes. They know more about you when they get
through interviewing you than your own mother or father, or if you
were a Catholic, your own priest would never know about you. They
know any indiscretion you may have had, or misfortune to perform,
and they know any of your weaknesses, your moral weaknesses, and,
of course, they play right through the moral weaknesses of people.
That is one of the ways in which communism advances, through the
moral weaknesses of people, and in this way by getting this thor-
ough interview, knowing what you like to do, what you don't like to
do, what your skills and capabilities are, what clubs you belong to,
what magazines or newspapers you are subscribing to, the kmd of
things you read. They really know you inside and out. They know
how to use it, too.
Mr. Jackson. That is more difficult than getting into the Kepub-
lican Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Did they prescribe any course of training for you,
or preparation for your duties as a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Miller. Well, Paul and I, I think were an exception, for
which they were to regret a little later on, and we w^ere accepted right
away as dues-paying members, and put actively into one of the clubs,
the Mar Vista Club. But then a little later it was decided, after the
Smith Act trials were over, that we should go into it more thoroughly,
and we were tutored privately by one individual who came to our
house and gave us private tutoring lessons. The schools were pretty,
let's say, bogged down at that time, the California labor schools. And
I shouldn't say the California labor schools, I didn't mean to say that,
but the Communist training centers were pretty well bogged down be-
cause everybody was so engrossed in the Smith Act trials. So, we had
a private tutor by the name of Joe Friedman. That is F-r-i-e-d-
m-a-n. I know there are so many people by that name, I hope that I
don't confuse it with any of the good loyal American Joe Friedmans.
But this man is in the insurance business, and has an office on South
Robertson Boulevard in Los Angeles.
1194 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA
Mr. Jackson. At tlie present time ?
Mrs. IVIiLLER. At the present time, yes.
Mr. Ta'V'enxer. Can you tell us anything more about his official
position in the Communist Party, if he had any ?
Mrs. Miller, Not to my knowledge. I know this, he was in charge
particularly of training people such as us recruits and new people in
the Commmiist ideology, and gave us an intensive lecture course, that
we would come and have private lessons.
Mr. Tavenner. I was going to ask you as to the nature of the
training that he gave you.
Mrs. Miller. Yes. Well, we had many books from which to study,
and we discussed these ; and, the points of view, and, of course, there
was always education to make sure that we had the correct position,
the correct point of view, because if you didn't, well, then it couldn't
be safe for the party line. There is just really one line which is
accepted, and you can't slant over, you can't begin to deviate too long
or you are going to be called a deviationist or revisionist, and this can
be very dangerous for the Communist Party. We wanted to stay in
for a while, so we agreed with everything that he told us and tried to
follow along.
I\Ir. Taaxxner. So you were supposed then to think the way they
wanted you to think ?
ISIrs. Miller. Right.
Mr. Tavenner. On every subject ?
Mrs. INIiLLER. That is perfectly right, yes. There were, of course,
this was true particularly in the first club we were in, in the Mar Vista
Club, and which was very small ; you know, these clubs were very small
at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. That was the security matter ?
Mrs. ^Miller. Yes, five and six members, and sometimes even less.
In the first group we were in
JNIr. Tavenner. Is Mar Vista the name of a community ?
Mrs. Miller. Yes, it is. And this particular club was a club in
that particular area, yes.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Did you live in that particular area ?
Mrs. Miller. No, we didn't, that was the strange part, we lived in
West Los Angeles, and later we were transferred to another club, to
the West Los Angeles, to the West Los Angeles Club.
Mr. Ta\tenner. This was about what period of time that you were
placed in the Mar Vista Club, approximately what year ?
Mrs. Miller. Yes. Well, it was the end of 1952 and 1953, just after
the Smith Act trials were over.
Mr. TA^^NNER. 'Who were the members of that club ?
Mrs. Miller. The chairman was Annette Schwartz. She is Mrs.
Morton Schwartz, and she was an educational director for this West-
em Division of the Los Angeles County Communist Party.
jNIr. Ta\t:nner. So that slie had duties then that went beyond that
of chairmanship of the Mar Vista Club ?
Mrs. Miller. That is correct. And then in addition we had a Mrs.
Lester Davison, whose first name is Jessie. There was a woman by
the name of Nina Inman, wliose husband's name I don't know, I can't
recall. And there was another woman by the name of Phyllis, and
I am not sure of her last name, actually, we were never supposed to
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA 1195
know the last names of the people with whom we sat week in and week
out. This was part of being a Communist, you weren't supposed to
trust anybody, not even your own fellow comrades. They wouldn't
even tell" us what night of the week wo were going to meet, or even in
what place we were going to meet. It was always kept very much of
a committee secret, and usually a few days before the meeting took
l)lace, even sometimes the day before, one of the comrades would come
up our driveway, just walk into our house unannounced without any
official previous notice, and just hand us a card and say, well, now,
we are having a meeting tomorrow night. That is just the way it
was, they didn't even trust the fellow comrades.
Mr. Tavenner. Wouldn't they telephone to you ?
Mrs. Miller. Very rarely. Most of the time they would even come
without calling. If they did call they would just say very little, and
come over.
Mr. Tavenner. How long do you think you were with the Mar
Vista Club of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Miller. We were there in 1953, and then in part of 1954.
We got our training, our private training through Joe Friedman, and
then we were, at the end of 1954, in the "fall, at that time placed into
the West Los Angeles Club, another club, and up until March, at which
time I had to take a leave of absence due to my illness of developing
ulcers.
Mr. Tavenner. Well, that would be actually within the Western
Division ?
Mrs. Miller, Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Miller. Yes, it is.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were your fellow members in that club ?
Mrs. Miller. I found here a much higher intellectual gi-oup of
men and women than I did in the first gi'oup. I presume we had
advanced to the area. We found people such as Phyllis and Jerome
Lebow, and we had Nora and David Schack, Nathan Krupin, and
Minnie Hecht. These people had been assigned just as some of the
other people had been to various specific duties.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mrs. Miller. Not necessarily within the Communist Party, but
since the program at this time was going out and reaching into mass
organizations, this is exactly what we were expected to do.
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, this was one of the main objectives
of the Communist Party at this time ?
Mrs. Miller. That is correct.
Mr. Ta^'enner. Was to get out into mass organizations ?
Mrs. Miller. Right, yes, that is right.
Mr. Ta\^nner. I might say, according to the report made by Doro-
thy Healey in April of 1957 that it is still one of the main objectives
of the Communist Party in this area to get out and work in mass or-
ganizations. I want to read one thing that she said in that report:
During the last few years, a myth developed that our leading role was dis-
played only if we came up with program and issues initiated by ourselves.
Such an idea has nothing in common with Marxism-Leninism, •* * *
So we start by trying to unite the members on issues [that is, members of
other organizations] already projected by their own organizations, and continue
by finding the way to unite that organization and its members, with others.
1196 INVESTIGATION OF COMIVIUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA
In other words
Mrs. Miller. To take over other organizations, yes.
Mr. TA^'EXXER. Then, yon say that was in a nieasnre the objective
of the Commnnist Party gronp that yon were with ?
Mrs. Miller. Yes. This is why I have always felt tliat, I mean,
I am not nearly as war}^ or fearfnl of the man or woman who gets on
the soapbox and. saj^s, I am a Communist, and this is what I stand
for. At least he calls a spade a spade. But when a person like Phyllis
Lebow gets to be president of a women's division, one of the large
women's divisions of a very respectable Immanitarian organization, a
wonderful international women's organization like the National Coun-
cil of Jewish Women, and nobody within the organization believes or
even knows her to be a Communist because her name has never ap-
peared anywhere officially, of course, I just felt this was my duty as a
good American, to inform the leadership that this was so. But un-
fortunately the leadership didn't recognize it because they didn't have
the facilities with which to attack, or how to rid themselves of Com-
munists who have infiltrated* to be leaders and presidents of their
various divisions.
This had happened also in the case of Morris Goodman, who I be-
lieve has testified before this committee, who had infiltrated the B'nai
B'rith organization and worked himself up to be chairman, and he
used to tell us, used to come and tell us, "Today I have brought
the light to a couple of my fellow B'nai B'rith people," you know,
and this was a very dangerous thing to do. After we, after I testified,
my husband and I brought the fact to the attention of the B'nai
B'rith organization, and they do have a clause in their by-laws which
gave them this out, because they were able to point to this which
stated that no person who was a member of the Communist Party or
any organization that advocates the overthrow of our Government
through force and violence, is welcome, or as a member is wanted as
a member or officer. So, they did get rid of Morris Goodman in the
B'nai B'rith organization. But in the National Council of Jewish
Women, it took a long time before these people actually understood
the real issue at hand.
I think finally there is some, I don't know just exactly how, but in
the national by-laws this resolution was passed also, that a person who
is a member of the Communist Party should not be an officer of a
good organization such as the National Council of Jewish Women.
This has happened in other organizations, too. I know one of our
members M-as invited to participate in the Y.W.C.A. program, and she
used to come complaining to us, saying, "I hate to go swimming on
Friday nights, it is so cold, you go there and swim."
The}' said, "Well, this is your job, and you have to go."
It is this sort of thing I was — I was supposed to go into another
organization, and I don't know if you want to touch on that now or
later, but — —
Mr. Taa"enner. Yes, I think you may as well develop it now, but let
me ask you a question first.
Did the Communist Party as an organization have anything to do
with Mi'S. Ijcbow becoming interested in the particular women's or-
ganization that you referred to ?
Mrs. Miller. Well, this was her assignment from the Communist
Party.
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA 1197
j\lr. Tavenner. It was her assignment ?
Mrs. Miller. Yes. Slie a\t)ii1(1 come back to the meetings and re-
port that there had been a debate, particularly I recall one on whether
Ked China should be admitted to the U.N. So she said, "You know,
I pretended like I wasn't particularly interested. He said to me,
Phyllis, you take the side for Eed China, just coincidentally, and she
said, you know, I did a good job."
And then the other cases came up, too, where she would have to
debate on issues of security laws, such as the Walter-McCarran law,
the Smith Act, and, of course, we always knew what side she was
going to take — she was a very intelligent woman, and she knew how
to make her point.
Mv. Tavenxer. I suppose when the matter of the Committee on
Un-American Activities came up, you knew pretty well what position
she would take ?
Mrs. Miller. I knew just how she stood, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. If you will proceed then with other instances ?
Mrs. Miller. Well, I didn't know if -^ou wanted to get into it now
or a little bit later, about my own particular organization. I dichi't
want to distract you.
]Mr. Ta\'enner. Well, I would like to return to a question. You
were speaking of the activity of the L.A.C.P.F.B., that is the Los
Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, and you men-
tioned Korea. Can you tell us what position the Communist Party
took at that time with regard to the initiation of aggression in Korea ?
Mrs. Miller. The Communist Party felt that the United Nations,
and the United States in particular, had no right to have interfered
against North Korea, and called South Korea the true aggressors.
Of course, later on, as you know, particularly in the Korean Independ-
ent, which is a newspaper published in both Korean and English, and
we fortunately were able to read the English supplement, it said many,
many times that the United States was employed in the use of germ
warfare against the innocent men and women of North Korea.
Mr. Tavenner. That is the sort of propaganda that the Commmiist
Party was attempting to use against our own country ?
Mrs. Miller. That is correct. That is correct ; yes.
INIr. Ta\t:nner. Now, speaking further about that organization,
and I am now talking about the Los Angeles Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born, did you discover that persons other than your-
self who were members of the Communist Party were active in the
control of that organization ?
INIrs. Miller. Yes. I discovered that although the Committee for
Protection of Foreign Bom did not call itself a membership organiza-
tion, and actually the five thousand people who were on its mailing
list were not considered bona fide members because they didn't pay
dues, or they didn't carry a membership card. I would consider as
either affiliates or members, the people who sat in on the executive
session, the executive board, and those who came to quarterly meetings
which were composed of the chairman of the numerous subcommit-
tees, as well as the components of the subcommittees. But they had
nothing to say as to the policy of the Committee for Protection of For-
eign Born.
Mr. Tavenner. Who did control the policy ?
1198 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA
Mrs. Miller. Well, this was really controlled, a very tightly knit
small group of people composed of the executive director, who hap-
pened to vary at different times. I mean, there is Delphine Smith at
one time, then Kose Chernin, who has had it for the longest period,
when she was in jail, and she was under trial during tlie Smith Act
in 1952. Then Lillian Doran, her sister, took over that organization,
so she was one of the people who controlled, let's say, policy. In
fact, as I understood it, and as I knew. Rose Chernin herself was still
maintaining control of the organization even while she sat there in
jail.
Mt. Ta^'exner. She was a Commmiist Party leader ?
Mrs. Miller. Oh, j^es, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Of southern California ?
Mrs. Miller. Yes, she has been identified, so I didn't bother to go
into it. I knew her to be a Communist, and I knew Lillian Doran to
be a Communist, and also Delphine Smith.
Mr. Jackson. Who is still doing business in the Los Angeles com-
mittee at the present time?
Mrs. Miller. Veiy actively engaged, they are going to have a big
shindig I understand on the 24th of tliis month, at the Alexandria
Hotel, testimonial for her attorneys.
Mr. Ta\tlnner. WTiat type of work did the committee engage in?
What did it attempt to accomplish besides the propagation of material
that you have already spoken of ?
Mrs. Miller. The primary objective of the Los Angeles Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born was to stifle all anti-Communist legis-
lation, particularly in the field of immigration. So, under the In-
ternal Security Act, the Walter-McCarran law, they were particularly
concerned because they knew that they were going to lose some of
their verj'^ valuable Communist Party members if they were depoi*ted
to other countries, and so they were particularly interested in the secu-
rity provision of the Walter-McCarran law, and this was its primary
purpose. These testimonials, these conferences were set up for this
purpose of reaching out into the non-Communist communities, reach-
ing way out into these right-wing mass organizations to draw in the
people who were do-gooders and humanitarians, and ti-y to win over
their sympathies. This was the primary objective.
A secondary, of course, was to raise money, not only for this work,
but actually for the Communist Party causes. In other words, we
know today that because of the very fine work that has been done
by investigative bodies such as the House Committee on LTn- American
Activities and other investigative bodies that people do not want to
join the Communist Party. It is not, let's say, the fad or fashionable
thing to do as it was in the 1930's or 1940's. The Communist Party
knows this, too, so it uses the Communist front organization as a
means of recruiting. This is how my husband and I were recruited,
so I know this to be true, it reaches out on the basis of do-gooders, and
humanitarians who might be won over.
INIr. Ta\tenner. Yes, that is why it is so important to follow the in-
structions given by Dorothy Healey to get out into mass organiza-
tions — it was a method of propagating their own organization,
Mrs. Miller. This was the duty. In fact, it is an order. There is
no such thing as a suggestion in the party, it is an order.
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA 1199
Mr. Tavenxer. In what activities did the committee engage in the
the defense of people who were being subject to deportation charges
or denaturalization charges?
Mrs. Miller. Well, very much the same, actually, what we call de-
portee committees were formed around various high type people, I
mean, particularly like people who were interested in liose Chernin's
denaturalization case, her defense. They formed a committee. Those
who were interested, and the friends and neighbors of David Hyun,
rallied around David Hyun, and various people who were interested
in other ^^eople of different nationalities would rally around them.
So through the deportees, the committee was able to organize many
nationality groups, and also win over some people who might not
have been really Communist, but who felt sympathetic, that one of
their fellow countrymen was being deported, and for which the true
reason was not always brought out. The fact that he was at present a
member of the Communist Party, or had come here under false, that
had testified falsely when he came to this countiy, that he hadn't been
a member, or who joined shortly afterwards as a member of the
party. So really the work of the organization was to unite varying
groups. They would get trade union organizations lined up, and any
of the deportees who happened to be engaged in trade union activity
was the focal point for organizing the trade union group.
Then there were people, well, I could go on to name other different
types. I mentioned the nationality groups, and those who might have
been active in any church would also be organized around this particu-
lar area, too.
Mr. Tavexner. Yes. Now, j^ou mentioned Peter Hymi ?
Mrs. Miller. David Hyun.
Mr. Tavenner. David Hymi ?
Mrs. Miller. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Whom I remember very well, was shown to have
been a member of the Communist Party by this committee in one of
its early investigations in Hawaii. He was a member of the Com-
munist Party.
Were most of these persons who were defended by the committee
members of the Communist Party, or were they members from other
organizations ?
Mrs. Miller. To the best of my knowledge I discovered that every
particular case, with the exception of one that I knew of personally,
was being defended by the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born on the basis of its security regulations, either having
been a present or past member of the party. There was just one ex-
ception that I know of.
Mr. Tavenner. Is there any significance to that exception ?
Mrs. Miller. Yes. I think definitely there was a significance. It
happened to be in the case of the Anderson family. I believe Mr.
Anderson was being deported on charges of illegal entry, and he and
his wife and a rather large family of children were Negroes, and it was
the intention of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born to utilize as a sort of decoy the Anderson family in order to win
over the large Negro population of Los Angeles. And they tried
to go into Negro communities, to pass around leaflets, and to hold
special meetings within the distirict to tell them what was going on re-
1200 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA
garding Anderson, and to build up any kind of discrimination which
they felt was taking place. But I am very happy to say that they
failed quite miserably because the Negro people were not swayed or
won over by this eti'ort of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born, much to their credit.
ISIr. TA^^:NNER. How were the expenses taken care of for all these
operations ?
!Mrs. JMiLLER. There were varying means of raising money. Of
course, as I said before, there were no membership dues, so, this
was not one of the official ways. They got around membership by hav-
ing sustainer fees. JSIy husband and I were sustainers, contributed
monthlyj and the deportees were, of course, expected to contribute
because it was for their own defense, and other people who came in
who were sympathetic and agreed with the ideology of the committee
were expected to contribute also, so that was one of the main means of
raising money.
Then there were just set affairs that were held eveiy year that
became annual affairs, like the Festival of Nationalities, which co-
ordinated the many, many nationality groups, and sort of solidified the
organization in fund raising. And also, well, they had a marvelous
time whenever they would get together in these festivals because they
had all kinds of foods and opportunities for gaiety also.
Then there was a primary means of raising money for the legal ex-
penses, for the attorneys, and that was through the testimonial dinners
for the attorneys, the lawyers' testimonial dinners which became an
annual affair also, at which time you were expected to pay as much
as $15 a plate. And believe me, it worked a hardship on some of these
working people who had to dig out of their pockets and out of their
small paychecks $15 to contribute per plate.
There were birthday parties and other kinds of affairs that were
held. Every time someone had a birthday it was an occasion to raise
money for the Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born. The
conferences didn't raise too mucli money, tliat was purely propaganda
purposes, these conferences that were held annually.
Mr. Tavenxer. Yes. In referring further to the propaganda ob-
jectives of this group, in what way did they attempt to influence legis-
lation either on the State or Federal level ?
Mrs. Miller. Well, tliere were varying means, of course. "\Ve had
organized our letterwriting campaigns, and when those of us who
had successfully infiltrated rightwing organizations went to them,
and to these rightwing organizations and suggested that we start a
letterwriting campaign to our legislators, that we visit them. And
then I have here an Outline for Action that was put out by the Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born to repeal the Walter-McCarran
law. I don't know if you want to introduce this into evidence.
Mr. Tavenner. That I believe has been introduced as exhibit 539-A
in our Communist political subversion publication, if you will let me
examine it a moment, please.
Mrs. Miller. Yes ; that is correct. It is an outline for action.
Mr. Jacksox. May I interpose a question, Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. Moulder. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. Reverting for the moment to the testimonials for the
lawyers, and so forth, do you of your ov/n personal knowledge know
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA 1201
whether or not some, or any of the lawyers, involved in tliese cases
which are taken up by the committee, whether they are themselves
Communists?
Mrs. Miller. Yes; I do know that they were Communists, and not
only by my personal knowledo;c', but many of thom, in fnct, primarily
all of them have been identified by the committee, this committee.
Mr. Jackson. A number of them have appeared before this com-
mittee.
Mrs. Miller. Yes. Yes, I mean, I know offhand that there were
people such as John Porter, who headed the le<2:al panel for the Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreioji Born. There was Jack Tenner, who
was very active, not only on the le<jal panel, but he made speeches very
often at our conferences, and would head a legal panel of one of the
conferences, and come and speak to one of our groups. There was
Richard Rykoff, Rose Rosenberg, Esther Shandler, who was extremely
active and appeared at several of the national conferences for the
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, and Stanley Fleishman,
and Pauline Epstein, and J. Allan Frankel, Seymour Frankel, and
William Samuels, just to name some of them. I know there have been
many more added to the list.
Mr. Jackson. Do these funds that are collected for legal assistance,
go as fees to these attorneys for representation of people who are
threatened with deportation?
Mrs. Miller. This was kept pretty secret, but I do know that we
were urged time and time again to remember that the attorneys were
spending their entire time on defending these deportation cases, and
they did not have time to engage in private practice. And we were
made to feel that this was our duty as members of the Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born to subsidize the attorneys and to pay them.
So actually, although it may not have been based on this same thing
as a private fee, they definitely were being paid by the Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born for their legal services for defending
the deportees.
Mr. Jackson. Testimony before this committee will reveal an in-
teresting wrangle among attorneys, Commmiist attorneys, who were
very much disturbed because one of them was getting more than
his share of the fees growing out of representation of clients before
this committee; and if, of course, this was a humanitarian thing where
one was devoting his entire time to the representation, I can understand
it, you don't have too much quarrel with it, but we did receive abundant
testimony that there was not what was considered a fair split of the
fees derived from representations before the committee, and it resulted
in quite a wrangle in the Communist Party meeting.
Mrs. Miller. I had heard those rumors, too ; yes.
Mr. Jackson. Humanitarianism does not extend in all cases to free
representation.
Mr. Tavenner. In this document entitled Outline for Action, an
appeal was made, was it not, to visit your Congressmen, and urge
action against this bill, and that which related to subversion in this
country ?
Mrs. Miller. Yes, particularly during the Congressmen's vacation,
such as Eastertime, Christmastime, we were urged to take our fellow
1202 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA
men or friends and representatives from these organizations to their
offices, make appointments, and to visit them.
IMr. Jackson. "Wliat was the word you used, "vacation" ?
Mrs. Miller. Yes, during the "vacation period"; don't you re-
member?
Mr. Jacksox. I would suggest the reporter put that in quotes, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. I notice you also have a copy of sample letters that
were furnished by the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of For-
eign Born to write to the ISIembers of Congress stating the reasons
why certain actions should be taken.
Mrs. Miller. That is correct. In fact, we oftentimes wrote the let-
ters for some of the people who were unable to write well, and just sat
down and wrote them for them.
Mr. TA^^EN]s^ER. Where did the thought or the plan of that type of
influence upon Congi-ess, which is a form of lobbying, originate?
Mrs. Miller. Well, as I mentioned before, the policy of the commit-
tee was dependent upon the very small coeur de lit of the steering com-
mittee, we called them the steering committee of the Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, and this composed, as I
said, it varied from time to time, people such as Mrs. Smith, and
Lillian Doran, Eose Chernin, Peter Hyun, David Hyun, Harry Car-
lisle, and Lillian Eipps, these type of people were on it from time to
time. Anne Perpich, an attorney, was on it. Josephine Yanez was
on it at a different time. I mean not all at one time, as you under-
stand, maybe just two or three at one time, and these I learned, either
knew to be Communists at that time, or later had learned that they
were members of the Communist Party, each and every one, the ones I
have just mentioned.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Tavenner, to give the witness and also the com-
mittee a rest, the committee will recess for a period of 5 minutes.
(Short recess taken.)
Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. INIiller, you have told the committee about the
direction and control of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born. Can you give us information regarding the direction
and control of any other front organizations ?
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question, please?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. Before we leave the Committee for Protection of For-
eign Born I should like to ask whether or not the creation of an organ-
ization of this kind demonstrates a complete lack of faith in the execu-
tive, legislative, and judicial branches of this country? Does it mean
that people who affiliate with such an org^anization have no faith in the
judicial processes of this country, or in the capacity of their Govern-
ment to treat its citizens fairly, or is it entirely a philosophical ap-
proach to it which is expressed in this manner as in opposition to all of
our institutions?
]\Irs. Miller. Are you speaking of the hard-core members of the
committee, or the followers?
Mr. Jackson. I am talking basically about those who form such a
committee. I realize that there are a great many non- Communists
who do associate.
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA 1203
Mrs. Miller. That is riglit ; tluit is correct.
Mr. Jackson. Who do not recognize the extent of Communist con-
trol, but the hard-core philosophical Communists, what expression
are they giving vent to when they set up an organization of this kind,
is it out of sincere regard for the rights and privileges of American
citizens, or is it directed to some other end ?
Mrs. Miller. To my way of thinking, and from my own personal
observation, they were not as interested in the individual civil rights as
they pretended to be, as they were in implementing the Communist
program, the resolutions, and their party line in an}- way that they
could see wa3's to implement this. To develop it through front organi-
zations was considered legal and was considered right. This is a part
of the material, they are just able to distort, wliat we call night, they
can make it seem like day. And to my way of thinking, personally, I
feel that they do not understand the situation, they do not give clear-
cut issues, or they do not want to accept our way of life, the American
way of life as I interpret it, free enterprise system, and our way of
life, and, therefore, they feel that only through following this Marx-
ism-Leninism, that they are going to be able to bring about the kind of
a world which they are seeking. It is a very dedicated ideology. I
wish manj' more of us Americans, good Americans, would have at
least one-half of this real dedication to what I consider a false ideol-
ogy, because if we don't, we are going to lose out.
Mr. Jackson. Is it a fair statement to make, in your opinion, that
the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born and the
parent organization, the American Committee for Protection of For-
eign Born, are cogs in a well-organized machine, the ultimate goal of
which is the destruction of this form of government as we have come
to know it ?
Mrs. Miller. That is absolutely correct.
Mr. Jackson. Thank you.
Mrs. Miller. This is absolutely connect.
Mr. INIouLDER. In connection with that, do you mean they are isolat-
ing this group and creating it as a minority, so-called minority group,
to make them believe that they are being abused, and cause them to
lia ve a lack of faith in our form of government ?
jNIrs. Miller. Yes, this is the purpose of setting up various Com-
munist front organizations. Noav, the ones for the protection of for-
eign born, as you say, are to isolate the foreign-born citizens, or non-
citizens, and to make them feel that they have been unjustly treated.
And then in other cases they take other groups of people, and try to
develop it in the same way. In the Civil Rights Congress they took
various other people, the Negro people, the Mexican people, and try to
isolate these as a matter of divide and conquer, played one group
against the other, the same thing with the labor groups.
Mr. Moulder. In other words, creating rebellious groups against
us
Mi-s. Miller. Yes, always. But this is a meditated plan, it is not
something that just happens, it is well thought out, and it is part of
the party dominated program, the Communist Party dominated pro-
gram.
Mr. Jackson. Are you familiar with the work of the Citizens Com-
mittee to Preserve American Freedoms ?
1204 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA
Mrs. ]\IiLLER. Well, I have met Frank Wilkinson, I haven't been ac-
tively engaged in this committee. He came to the office of the Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born for the purpose of exchanging
our mailing lists. He borrowed ours, and we borrowed his so that
we could send out to his contacts our mail and literature, and he
wanted to be able to use our mailing list, to send out his. And I do
know that he is so-called dedicated, or that committee is dedicated to
the overthrow of this very committee, the House Committee on Un-
xVjnerican Activities.
Mr. Jackson. We have heard rumors to that effect.
Mrs. ]\IiLLER. Yes. It has been for a long time. And may I just
say that they are not stupid people, because they loiow that they have
a foe of communism in the House Committee on Un-American Ac-
tivities, and I think the American people ought to feel very justly se-
cure in knowing that this coimnittee is still in existence. I thank
God for it every day.
Mr. Ta\'enner. I was asking you whether you have knowledge of
other Communist front organizations in Los Angeles which are being
directed and dominated by the Communist Party.
Mrs. Miller. Yes, there was, of course, the Southern California
Peace Crusade, which was set up particularly m the case of Korea,
you know, from 1950 on.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mrs. JMiLLER. Of which Peter Hyun was director for quite some
time. And then in the case of the Smith Act trials, there had been
many organizations that were not set up particularly, I mean, Civil
Rights Congress took out of it some of the fight, but they had been in
existence way before this, of course.
Then there is the California Emergency Defense Committee which
was set up primarily for the basis of resisting this fight, of making
the fight, I should say, against this Smith Act.
And then there was another welfare committee, the Political Priso-
ners Welfare Commitee, which really more or less took care of the
physical needs of these defendants, such as taking care of their food
and clothing, and taking care of the families. But within this wel-
fare committee, many people who ordinarily never would have gone
to a Civil Riglits Congress committee meeting, or never would have
gone to a California Emergency Defense Committee meeting, would
come to a welfare committee meeting for political prisoners, and this
is how they reached out into all directions. Don't you feel sorry for
this person ? Look, here is a wife and the small children, and there
is no way to support them. And out of pity, they were able to drag
in many innocent people. So I think it was an important committee
in this respect.
Then Ave mentioned this Citizens Committee to Preserve American
Freedoms, which I think is designed primarily to overthrow this
House Committee on Un-American Activities. And in addition there
was in the case of the Rosenbergs, the Committee To Secure Justice
in the Rosenberg Case. And more recently we have the Los Angeles
Sobell Committee, which is sort of an adjunct of the Rosenberg com-
mittee, or tlie National Committee To Secure Justice for Morton
Sobell in the Rosenberg Case.
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA 1205
Mr. Ta\t3NNEr. Then the work of tlie Communist Party is extend-
ing^ over a very broad field ?
Mrs. Miller. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. In this area?
Mrs. Miller. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Who is chiefly responsible for the correlation of
the work in all of these Communist front organizations? I am not
speaking of any particular individual, but what group, and if you
can name any particular individual, I would like to know it.
Mrs. Miller. Well, I couldn't tell you any particular individual
except the ones that I was connected with, or I have been associated
with, you know. And, of course, I did know that Rose Chernin was
the one who was, who as a Communist, and as the leader of the Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born did the greatest job of develop-
ing this organization, and making it as powerful as it is today. It is
very strong, it is a very strong organization, one really to be reckoned
with. I think we just have to take it more seriously than we have.
Mr. TA^^ENNER. Was she active in other front organizations? Or,
at least, in the planning for them, do you laiow ?
Mrs. Miller. Not to my knowledge, I am not sure about that.
Mr. Tavenner. Earlier in your testimony you mentioned the fact
that the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born had
no membership as such; what did you mean by that?
Mrs. Miller. Well, I meant that the people who attended all the
affairs, who came to the conferences and the testimonial dinners were
not members per se, because under the Internal Security Act of 1950,
the members of Communist-front organizations, if they were dis-
covered or proven to be Communist-front organizations would have
to register. So these front organizations were extremely cautious in
calling themselves membership organizations. They resisted the idea
that it was a membership organization.
Mr. Tavenner In other words, that is a device to get around the
provisions of the present act ?
Mrs. Miller. That is correct, but we have to certainly consider
these people who spend their time, or much of their, let's say, free
time, when they are not actually working for a living, with this
Committee for IProtection of Foreign Bom, certainly as participants,
or if you want to call them ajE&liates, if you don't want to call them
members; perhaps this is one way you might get around it. The
people who are chairmen of trade-union committees, or nationality
or deportee committees, or area defense committees, and the com-
ponents, the members of these individual committees, who compose
not only the executive board, but come to these quarterly meetings
that were held four times a year, the Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, to my way of thinking, ought certainly to be held,
responsible for their actions. If this is considered subversive, as it
has been designated by the Subversive Activities Control Board, these
are the people who should be held accountable because they know
what they are doing, and they are giving their time freely, and their
money, too.
Mr. Ta\ti:nner. And actually if you lay all fine points aside, there
is actually no difference between being affiliated with that organization
and being a member other than the name "member," isn't that right ?
1206 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA
Mrs. Miller. Not to an intelligent person, I don't see how there
could be fi difference at all.
Mr. TA^■EXXER. The committee is considering that very question
now in regard to the investigation that it is conducting, whether or
not Section 7 of the Communist Control Act of 1954 should be tight-
ened. That section deals with Communist infiltrated organizations.
And the committee also is dealing with this same subject with regard
to Communist Party membership.
We had an instance yesterday where a member of the Communist
Party resigned, and was told after resigning, well, continue on to
advance the purposes of the Communist Party, support it, continue
with your donations even though yon are not a member. That would
be a clear case, it would seem to me, of being an affiliate.
Mrs. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. As distinguished from being a member.
Mrs. Miller. Yes.
Mr. TA\-EN]srER. In your experience in the Communist Party has
that question ever come to your attention ?
Mrs. IVIiLi.ER. Well, I can see where this would be particularly
effective, and I have heard of cases of this nature, particularly in the
universities where oftentimes one of the professors will be obligated
to swear his allegiance to his country, or if he is asked to take a loyalty
oath could thus do it honestly, although Communists feel no compul-
sion about lying, and saying he isn't a member. But it does make it
simpler if he actually drops out. I have heard of cases where people
have dropped out of the party, but actually have continued gettmg
their direction from the Communist Party itself as to its line of work.
Mr. Jackson. Yes. Now, it may be true that many Communists
wouldn't hesitate to swear to a falsehood, but if they do, and it can be
proved, they are subject to the penalties of perjury.
Mrs. Miller. That is correct.
Mr. Jacksox. That is a point I wanted to make, Mrs. Miller. You
said the Communist has no compulsion against lying as far as his
membership is concerned. That hasn't been the experience of this
committ(^e. ~Wlien they are questioned on this point, tliere is a consid-
erable reluctance — that is putting it very mildly — to declare their
nonmembership. Don't you think that the difference is that consti-
tuted by an oath where they have every reason to believe that the
authority before which they are taking the oatli has information which
M'ill demonstrate very certainly that they are or have been members of
the Communist Party, and bring them within the purview of the law
on perjuiT- ?
Mrs. iSIiLLER. I tliink this is absolutely correct, because in other cases
when they have lied and said they are not members of the party, and
have later been found out actually, they are quite sure at that time that
nobody knows that they are party members. But in the case of the
committee where they know probably there has been an investigation
prior to their testimony they would l)e more hesistant to lie about it
because of the perjury problem.
Mr. Jackson. We have had a number of people when asked, "are
you now a meml")er of the Communist Party," who have said "No."
Then when we ask the question if they were a member of the Communist
Party yesterday, they take the fifth amendment. How can you explain
that?
INVESTIGATION OF COMMXTNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA 1207
Do you mean they can change from (hiy to clay, from membership to
nonmembership ?
Mrs. Miller. WeU, there certainly is a difference in being a Com-
munist Party member. Many people are Communists who actually
are not members of the party. We should differentiate, because I
know that within the last forty years we have had a half a million
people tiiat have been brought to our attention by statistics who have
joined the Conuuunist Party and dropped out, while there has been
relatively a smaller number who have been willing to testify in behalf
of their Government, and who really have liad a change of heart and
have become good loyal dedicated American citizens for the most part.
I have found from my experience that at least, and this is a con-
servative number, at least fifty percent, fifty percent of this half a
million people — did I say a quarter of a million before, or half a
million? Half a million is correct, fifty percent of this half a million
people, if it came to a showdown whether their loyalties lie with the
Soviet Union or with the United States in case of emergency, still are
sympathetic with what they call the "Father of Scientific Socialism,"
that is Russia, they are still sympathetic because they feel that this is
a countiy that will lead the way, and will show them the proper way.
So there we have to reckon with, you see, a quarter of a million former
Commmiists who are not actually party members, that is, they do not
pay dues.
I would like to explain, it is not eas}^ to stay in the Communist
Party, because to be a good loyal dedicated Communist, it takes all of
your time, your money, and energy, and Communists can be selfish, too
many of them say, I can be a good Communist and not go to meetings,
just like a good lot of people can say I can be a good Christian and not
go to church on Smiday. They follow out the party line. They
subscribe to the Communist publications. They give their donations.
They attend these front organizations, and these other groups, and
when they are within their own legitimate organizations they are
promoting communism.
This is the point. You see, so that is what many people who dropped
out are still promoting communism, certainly they haven't become
Communists per se.
Mr. Jackson. You sav all Communists are not in the Communist
Party?
Mrs. Miller. Right.
Mr. Jackson. I say, thank God all the Communists in the Commu-
nist Party aren't Communists. We are very fortunate and it must be
a matter of grave concern to the domestic Reds to find out how many
members of the F.B.I, the Communist Party has in party ranks.
Mrs. Miller. Devastating, I suppose.
Mr. Tavenner. I can well understand that a member of the Com-
munist Party when he becomes a member of the front organization
would possiblj?^ deceive that organization even to the extent of a false-
hood with regard to his Communist Party membership, because there
is little likelihood of any way to prove it, but when they come before
a congressional committee under oath, it is a rare thing, as mentioned
by Congressman Jackson, that a person who actually is a member
would deny it because of the penalties of perjury.
Mrs. Miller. Yes.
1208 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA
Mr. Tavenner. There would be no penalty of perjury in stating
a falsehood in your front organizations, but there would here.
And then Mr. Jackson mentioned the fact that we have had wit-
nesses who say, I am not now a member of the Communist Party, but
if you ask him what he was when he entered tlie door, he would take
the fifth amendment, and refuse to answer.
The conmiittee has heard testimony indicating that persons have
considered themselves members one minute, and not members the next
minute. Proof of membership at a given moment may be a difficult
thing, but if this act is enlarged and redefined so as to include a per-
son who is an affiliate, it probably would change that result to some
extent.
Mrs. Miller. Yes, I would like to just add at this point that a per-
son who is a Communist isn't just a Communist when he attends party
meetings, maybe once a week, twice a week, but a good dedicated Com-
munist is one 24 hours a day, and I mean that so sincerely. I can't
emphasize it enough, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and 365 days of
the year, except on leap year, believe me, that is the extra day, because
to be a good Communist you just live it, and you breathe it, and you
sleep and you dream it, because communism is a way of life — really is
a way of life. And that is why the person who teaches in the school
can't stop being a Communist, because communism is not something
you can turn ott' and on like a hot water faucet, it is an integral part
of the individual's thinking, or a person who writes for the movies or
TV can't stop being a Communist when he is writing — when you pick
up your ruler to teach or pen to write.
Now, I am a different person, I will switch it off. I am not a Com-
munist any more. We recognize communism to be a criminal con-
spiracy, but these people, as we know, carry out this Communist
propaganda and the work of the party no matter where they are
because this is their duty, to promote communism wherever they are,
whatever tune it might be. They live and breathe as Communists,
in whatever organization they go into. I can't emphasize this too
strongly, whether in a trade union or in a fraternal organization or
in a religious group, in a church, wherever it may be, the duty of a
Communist is to carry out the Communist program.
Mr. Moulder. It has so often been stated, when reference has been
made to the Communist Party, witnesses have referred to the fact
that they are seeking protection under the Constitution, the first
amendment, in not being compelled to reveal tlieir association or politi-
cal affiliation as they refer to it, thereby referring to the Commmiist
Party movement, or Communist organization in this country as a
political party, as we ordinarily refer to a political party. Can you
throw any light upon that subject, how you would distinguish, and
what explanation do you have to give us along that line as to whether
or not from your experience and association, it is a political party in
the sense that we are accustomed to referring to a political party?
Mrs. Miller. It may do many well-meaning Americans to believe
me, it is a political party because in some states it has been successful
in getting sufficient ballots to put it, you know, on the official election
sheet. But this, to my way of thinking, does not comprise any legality
of its being a legitimate political party. When an organization in the
United States is definitely linked up with an international criminal
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA 1209
conspiracy such as we know exists, then we certainly can't call this a
le^al national political party.
Mr. Moulder. Yes. That brings out the point. What did you
hear in the Communist Party meetinjjs, in closed sessions, or by your
association with leaders of the Communist Party or movement in this
area that leads you to reach that conclusion ? I mean, specific instances
where you can cite some meetinj^ alon<^ that line.
Mrs. ]\IiLT.ER. Well, I couldn't ^o into it all at this particular time,
but I have much of it I can draw upon, not only from the things that
1 have heard, of course. I know that some of the papers that we were
to study at our Communist Party meetings came from Budapest, and
the directives that were brought down to us I knew had come from
abroad. And also let me say that in the case of "de-Stalinization,"
these are deductions that an intelligent person must make from time
to time.
Mr. Moulder. Those documents were studied and discussed in your
discussion groups then ?
Mrs. Miller. Yes, that is correct.
Mr. Moulder. And, of course, many people have said to us, why
isn't a law passed to ban or prohibit the existence of the Communist
Party. Of course, that first brings up the serious proposition pro-
vided by the Constitution, which they themselves seek protection under,
svhen they come before this committee.
Mrs. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Moulder. But then there would be nothing to prevent them
from organizing under some name other than the Communist
Party. So, it is very difficult to pass a law specifying you cannot
join or belong to certain organizations known as the Communist
Party.
Now, one other question I have in mind. From your experience, and
observations, and experience as an undercover agent for the F.B.I.,
have you noticed a weakening, or shall we say a growing complacency
or weakening of opposition, on the part of the American people re-
cently — weakening of alertness to the danger of the possibility of the
spread of communism along the lines that you have mentioned in
your testimony ?
Mrs. Miller. Yes, and this concerns my husband and me very, very
deeply. I think that all of us, as individual Americans, are not assum-
ing our responsibilities seriously enough. We are just setting it aside,
and we are thinking, well, let our Government handle it, or let the
F.B.I, take care of it, this is not within my jurisdiction, I shouldn't
have anything to say about it.
But I think each American has the moral obligation to know and to
understand the difference between communism and Americanism.
I personally think that even courses should be given in high schools
that would teach the ideological differences between the true democracy
or Americanism as set up originally by our Eepublic under the free
enterprise system. Our students should be taught to be proud of what
America was originally formed for, and to understand that there
is really a difference between Communist ideology, and our way of life
as expressed under the Constitution and Declaration of Independence,
and what we came here for, to set up a government.
Mr. Jackson. Would the chairman yield for a moment ?
1210 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA
I was very much interested in the teaching of Communist ideology
in the schools. I am in full agreement that it should be taught. Un-
less our sj'-stem of government is strong enough, or big enough and
good enough to stand on its own, it can never succeed.
Mrs. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Jacksok. I would make one exception, it should not be taught
by Communists. I think that is the concern of the committee and of
the American people.
Mrs. Miller, Yes, that is the concern.
Mr. Jackson. The police department doesn't give itself lessons in
safecracking by using the thug, but I certainly agi'ee, and this may
come as a surprise to a number of people, that the moral degra-
dation of communism should be taught. I would certainly back such
a thing, if it were taught objectively, and let each system stand on its
merits. I would certainly have no objection. It would be very
desirable.
Mrs. Miller. We can put our faith in the facts as they stand. I
have faith in the American people that when given the facts about
both systems that they are going to choose the American sj^stem.
Mr. WiRiN. IMay I express my agreement with that, Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. Moulder. Will you proceed, Mr. Tavenner ?
Mr. WiRiN. But only with that.
Mr. Tavenner. Now, there is one thing that has been quite shocking
to me, and studying your situation, your personal situation, it has come
to my attention that you have been personally treated very badly by
the Communist Party in its efforts to discredit you among your friends
and neighbors. Now what is it that has occurred ?
Mrs. Miller. About my return from Washington in 1955; I was
met by a barrage of letters that were sent to all of the neighbors in my
particular community by this Los Angeles Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born. It was called an open letter. I don't know if you
have a copy of it.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, I do have a copy of it.
Mrs. Miller. I was vilified there. And at that time I found that
people I had known for 10 or 12 years, some of my neighbors who
had known me to be active in respectable organizations were sud-
denly refusing to talk to me. Now this letter really had its mark,
it was successful because I was now a controversial. People were
just afraid to touch me, whether I was right or wrong. I had done
something that had excited the attention of the public, and perhaps
it would be better not to. Not only that, we received many tlireats
from what I assumed were Communists over the telephone. We
received letters through the mail that threatened our lives, and our
children. We were attacked in various ways such as having filth
thrown on our porch from time to time, having pot shots taken at us.
We still have one of the holes in one of our back windows as evidence.
And whether these were crackpots, or whether they were Communists,
1 don't Imow, but nevertheless they were there. We got the letters,
we got the calls, and we got the dirt.
So, of course, I have to attribute this as part of the Communist
j)lan of retribution to me for my testimony.
Mr, Tavenner. The American Civil Liberties Union didn't ojffer
its services to support you, or represent you, did it?
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA 1211
Mrs. Miller. No. In fact, I think we called upon tliem for help,
and they felt that it wasn't witliin their jurisdiction, it seemed to me.
Mr. Tavenner. You did?
Mrs. Miller. Yes. It seemed to me that
Mr. WiRiN. When and where ?
Mrs. Miller. We called them on the telephone. I am listening to
the counsel, sir. Was that a question you asked ?
Mr. Tavenner. How is that ?
Mr. WiRiN. Would the witness please be good enough to
Mr. Jackson. Direction for order, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. You understand the i-ules of the committee, you are
not involved m this case as a witness or as counsel.
Mr. WiRiN. She is talking about the American Civil Liberties
Union.
Mr. Moulder. And if you continue to disturb the proceedings here
you will have to be removed from the courtroom.
Mr. WiRiN. Well, I would rather remain.
Mr. Moulder. Then keep your mouth shut.
Mr. Jackson. I would suggest that any conmiunication addressed
to the committee by Mr. Wirm which would tend to elaborate on
the matter would certainly receive the attention of the committee.
Mr. WiRiN. Thank you. I shall be quiet then and listen to the
testimony.
Mrs. Miller. Were you asking a question ?
Mr. Tavenner. I asked you a question, if the American Civil Lib-
erties Union volunteered any support to you from this dilemma that
you were in ?
Mrs. JSIiLLER. I recall my husband made a phone call and told them
of the situation, and we did not receive any assistance from them.
In fact, I would like to go a step further and to say we also got a
call from a gentleman who identified himself as a member of the
Fund for the Republic. He said that he had heard of it, and he
was interested, and could we t^U him some of our neighbors who
wouldn't speak to any of us and some of them that would. We
assisted him in this questioning. We gave him the names of both,
some of our neighbors who wouldn't talk to us, and some of those
that would. He never called back to promise any help or any
assistance.
]\Ir. Tavenner. Were you accused in any of this literature that was
being sent around of testifying to matters which were entirely untrue
before the Board in Washington ?
Mrs. Miller. Yes. If you have the sheet there perhaps you can
read that part of it. I mean that open letter of the day which I joined
the local group. Do you want me to read it ?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mrs. Miller (reading) :
She joined a local group raising funds to maintain a home for the aged, a
nursery school, a synagogue, various women's organizations, and a committee
which defends the rights of foreign-born citizens and residents of the United
States, all for the admitted purpose of taking minutes of meetings, stealing letters
and other records from the files, recording the names of persons attending
meetings and what they had to say, and turning all information over to the
F.B.I, for distortion to achieve intimidation.
They accused me of going into other organizations.
Mr. Tavenner. That is organizations that had nothing to do with
the Communist Party ?
1212 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA
Mrs. Miller. Right, and at the behest of the F.B.I, to investigate
the nursery school, the home for the aged, tlie women's organizations,
various women's organizeitions which I vvas a member of, these various
groups, and the synagogue, and then they put in it this committee
which defends the rights of foreign born. They mix in, you see, this
subversive organization with legitimate organizations.
And saying my purpose in going to these m.eetings was to take
minutes of those meetings, and to turn over all information to the
F.B.I. ; this is absolutely false.
Mr. Tavenner. And you never admitted any such thing before the
Board?
Mrs. Miller. I never admitted such a thing, as the transcript of my
testimony will show, that I never did anything like this either for the
F.B.I, or for myself. To report to the F.B.I, on non-Communist
organizations, that wasn't what I had ever been asked to do, the F.B.I.
never asked me to do such things.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. That was part of the campaign to destroy you
among j'our friends ?
Mrs. Miller. Yes, it did, and they succeeded because many of my
neighbors were members of this organization I started to tell you
about — the Pioneer Women. In fact, I had been asked to join. Well,
no, let me go back to that. I hadn't been asked to join because I was
already a member of the Pioneer Women, when I was asked to join
the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. Let me say that I
was asked to join the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born be-
cause of my high position in the Pioneer Women, the national women's
organization. I just got that straight. And so upon my return from
Washington, I had been so vilified by this letter, that my own mem-
bers in this particular organization, one of the chapters of the Pioneer
Women, refused to have me attend meetings, and didn't even want to
hear my side of the story, and did not send me notices of the meetings
any more. They just considered me no longer a member of this or-
ganization. And, of course, this just completely crushed me, dis-
illusioned me because I Imew the Communists were certainly going to
be angry with me for testifying, there couldn't have been any love or
reverence for me, but I didn't expect this from my neighbors and
friends, for whom I had gone to bat as much as for myself and my
own children. In fact, it was just to keep such organizations as the
Pioneer Women clean and free from Communist domination that I
even agreed in the first place to assist the F.B.I, in investigating the
intent and the purpose of the Committee for Protection of Foreign
Bom.
Mr. Tavenner. That is the pure illustration of the dangers of
propaganda, to what use it can be put, and how the minds of people
can be twisted through false information and false accusations.
]Mr. Jackson. This is vaguely familiar of a conspiracy to black-
list, which, of course, is the word frequently hurled at this committee,
attempted blacklist of so and so.
JNIr. Ta\t^.nner. Yes, it seems to me I can remember a report from
the Fund for the Republic on blacklisting.
Mrs. Miller. I later learned that one of the people in the Pioneer
Women who knew me to be a Communist and subversive sympathizer.
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA 1213
whom I knew to be identified in Communist causes, was one of these
people Avho actually set out to vilify me within the Pioneer Women.
Probably the people themselves would not have felt as strongly if
there liadn't already been strong enough infiltration by otlier Com-
munists — a woman by the name of Virginia Baskin, Mrs. Jack Bas-
kin. In fact, her husband is the brother of Dorothy Forest.
Mr. Jackson. You knew her to be a member of the Communist
Party?
Mrs. JVIiLLER. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. To j'-our own personal knowledge ?
Mrs. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Jackson. What did you base that on ?
INIrs. Miller. Just our conversations. We did not go to Communist
Party meetings, but when we talked to each other. Actually what
she did, she tried to direct my activities in the Pioneer Women, when
I was always successful in doing the things she asked me to do, she
went in another group, and said, as long as you are here, Marion, you
don't need the two of us. They formed another group, the Brentwood
Club, and became president of it, and she set it up.
Mr. Moulder. I wish to say this, in connection with this open let-
ter which was distributed, in reference to you specifically, and also
on the use of the term "informer." I want to make some comment
upon that very briefly.
When a witness is subpenaed in the courtroom to testify, say in-
volving an automobile collision, or involving the commission of a
crime, or murder, they are subpenaed to testify as to the facts as
American citizens, as part of our way of life in America. And in the
same way the witnesses are subpenaed before a congressional commit-
tee to testify as to the facts, or as you were called to Washington to
testify before an agency of our Government to reveal whatever you
may Imow, and to tell the truth, and nothing but the truth. That is
an American tradition that has been the very firm foundation upon
which our Government has given the people good government since
its establishment.
I want to read that which you did not read, that part of the so-
called open letter :
Informers. — Informers are hated by all fairminded people in the United States
as they have been throughout the history of mankind. When the rights and
freedoms of the people were under attack during Thomas Jefferson's day, with
the Government encouraging the use of informers to enforce the alien and sedi-
tion laws, Edward Livingstone told Congress, "The country will swarm with
informers, spies, and all the odious reptile tribe that breed in the sunshine of
despotic power. The hours of the most unsuspected confidence, the intimacies
of friendship, or the recess of domestic retirement afford no security." Marion
Miller is a member of such a reptile tribe. She lives with her husband, Paul
Miller, at 10716 Esther Avenue, West Los Angeles.
I want that in the record.
Mr. Ta\^nner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Moulder. Any questions ?
Mr. Jackson. No ; I have no questions, Mr. Chairman, but I do want
to make a statement.
I have more than passing knowledge of the services that have been
rendered by Mr. and Mrs. Miller to their Government. The services
have been extensive, and have brought down on both of them the
1214 INVESTIGATION OF COMlMUlSriST ACTIVITIES EST CALIFORNIA
hatred of the Communist tribe. But I would say that vilification by
the Reds is your greatest accolade. We bear some of the scars our-
selves.
Mrs. INIiLLER. Thank you.
INIr. Jacksox. I want to ask a question because I want to make a
point that I think is very important.
I assume from your membership in several organizations that you
are of the Jewish faith ?
Mrs. ]MiLLER. That is correct.
Mr. Jacksox. And your husband is also ?
Mrs. Miller. That is right.
Mr. Jackson. I think this is important, Mr. Chairman, because
many of us are questioned from time to time as to why a considerable
number of members of the Jewish faith appear before this committee.
I think that the service that has been rendered by the Millers in this
connection, this selfless service has done more to strengthen the hands
of millions of loyal American Jews than the service rendered by any
other witness who has appeared before this committee in recent years.
This is a delicate area, and I know that I shall be accused in the Daily
People's World and the other Communist organs of bringing racism
into this hearing. However, I am confident enough that my many
Jewish friends will take such an attack with more than the usual grain
of salt.
I think you have rendered a very sterling and outstanding service
to the country. I congratulate you, and through you, your husband,
for the work you have done.
Mrs. IVIiLLER. Thank you very much. It was a privilege to be here
today. Thank you.
Mr. Moulder. Call the next witness, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Ta-st^nner. INIrs. Phyllis Lebow,
Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give to this subcommittee shall be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Lebow. I do.
TESTIMONY OF PHYLLIS LEBOW, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
A. L. WIRIN
Mr. Tavexner. Will you state your name, please, Mrs. Lebow ?
Mrs. Lebow. Phyllis Lebow.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden-
tify himself for the record ?
Mr. WiRix. My identification is my name, A. L. Wirin.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien and where were you born, Mrs. Lebow ?
Mrs. Lebow. Chicago, 111.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mrs. Lebow. Los Angeles, Calif.
Mr. Ta\tenner. How long have you been a resident of California ?
Mrs. Lebow. I would say 15 years.
Mr. TA^^ENNER. Will you tell the committee briefly your educational
training, what it has been?
Mrs. Lebow. Grammar school and high school graduate.
Mr. Tavenner. "Wliat is your occupation ?
Mrs. Lebq-vv. Housewife.
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA 1215
Mr. Tavenner. Were you in the hearing room during the entire
testimony of Mrs. Marion Miller ?
Mrs. Lebow. I was.
Mr. Tavenner. ^Yho just left the witness stand ; did you hear her
identify you as a member of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Lebow. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
the first and the fifth amendment.
Mr. Moulder. The question was, Did you hear her make the state-
ment that you were affiliated or connected with the Communist Party ;
you understand that question ?
Mrs. Lebow. I understand the question,
Mr. Tavenner. I didn't ask you whether you are or not, I asked
you whether you heard what she said.
Mrs. Lebow. I understood your question, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. What reason did you give for refusing to answer?
Mrs. Lebow. I gave grounds on the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. All right, now
Mrs. Lebow. Excuse me, I have a cold.
Mr. Tavenner. What possible reason could you have for tliinking
that you could be involved in any criminal proceeding for stating
that you heard what she testified to? Now, you know you are not
making that claim in good faith.
Mr. WiRiN. Are you through with your question ?
Mr. Tavenner. I will finish when I am finished.
Mr. WiRiN. May I confer with my client ?
Mr. Moulder. Yes, indeed.
Mr. WiRiN. I want to know if he is through.
Mr. Moulder. Yes, you may confer with her now.
Mrs. Lebow. I am sorry, sir, I am not prepared to argue this ques-
tion with you, if you would care to argue it with my lawyer, then that
is different.
Mr. Tavenner. He told you to say that, didn't he ?
Mr, WiRiN. Mr. Chairman
Mr. Moulder. Counsel has the right to confer with the witness, of
course, you are not presumed to be telling the witness what to do,
what she should say or testify to, but confer with her on matters of
law.
Mr. WiRiN. I propose to do so. May the statement, may the last
question by counsel be stricken from the record as improper, it invades
the
Mr. Moulder. The request is denied. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. So you refuse on the ground of possible self-incrim-
ination to state whether you heard the witness testify with regard to
you. Well, it is hardly worthwhile to ask you any questions about
yourself, if you won't answer that question.
Mr. WiRiN. Is that a question or a comment ?
Mr. Tavenner, No, that is a statement which will be followed by
a question.
Mr. Moulder. I think if I may intervene with counsel, the witness,
as I understood you to say, you were in the courtroom while Mrs.
Miller was testifying?
Mrs. Lebow, Yes, I was.
1216 ESrVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES DST CALIFORNIA
j\Ir. Moulder. And the next question is, did you hear her testi-
mony regarding you and your name mentioned in connection with
Communist Party activities. The question is, did you hear her so
testify ?
Mrs. Lebow. And my answer was that I decline to answer the
question.
Mr, M0UI.DER. Yes, and I am directing you to answer for the rea-
son that from your answer apparently you are not claiming the pro-
visions of the first and fifth amendments in good faith, and it cer-
tainly isn't a valid reason for not answering the question, and the
committee doesn't accept your response or reasons for not answering,
and, therefore, you are directed to answer the question.
Mrs. Lebow. 1 object to answering the question, and I object on
the ground that it is not pertinent.
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I think probably this witness can be
excused after possibly two or three questions. I don't know that it is
important whether she heard it or not. If she didn't hear it you can
tell her what was said in about three words, paraphrase it because
it was
Mr. Tavenner. You have good hearing, do you not ?
Mrs. Lebow\ I have a slight cold.
Mr. JNIoulder. Just paraphrase the testimony as suggested by Mr.
Jackson, and then let's proceed from there.
]\Ir. Taa-enister. Yes. Were you a member of the Communist Party
assigned to work within the National Council of Jewish Women ?
INIrs. Lebow. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
the first and fifth amendments.
ISIr. Tavenner. Did you hold an official position in the National
Council of Jewish Women ?
Mrs. Lebow. I reiterate my previous statement.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the Communist Party now ?
Mrs. Lebow. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of what
I previously stated.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Jackson ?
Mr, Jackson. Simply this, the National Council of Jewish Women,
as I understand it, is a perfectly legitimate organization. It has not
been proscribed by the Attorney General ?
Mr. Tavenner. Not in any way.
Mr. Jackson. In other words, there is no shadow over the organ-
ization ?
Mr. Tavenner. None whatever.
Mr. Jackson. Membership in that organization therefore could not
conceivably constitute any risk to the witness ?
Mr. Tavenner. None whatever.
Mr. Jackson. Were you a member of the National Council of Jew-
ish Women ?
Mrs. Lebow. I decline to answer that, sir.
Mr. Jackson. I don't believe the answer is in good faith, Mr. Chair-
man, and I ask that the witness be directed to answer whether she was
a member of the organization. I am not relating this in any way to
membership in any other organization, but simply to the National
Council of Jewish Women.
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA 1217
Mr. MouLDEK. The witness is directed to answer. And the reason
we are going through the direction of answering is because the courts
have hehl that we must let you know that we do not accept your re-
sponse to the question, by letting it pass, but want to remind you that
we do seek an honest answer to the question.
Mrs. Lebow. I refuse to answer the question on the grounds of
the first and fifth amendments, also on the ground that it is not
pertinent.
Mr. Jackson. Just a moment. If as the previous witness has
testified you were placed in an organization by the Communist Party
to perform a certain function, I can think that nothing is more perti-
nent to the work of this committee than to determine, if possible, if
you were a member of the organization. This certainly is the most
pertinent fact we could arrive at. We cannot test the validity of the
previous witness' statement if you refuse to tell us whether or not you
were even a member of the organization.
Mrs. Lebow. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Jackson. I would w^ant the record to show, Mr. Chairman,
that I am not satisfied that her answer is in good faith so far as the
invocation of the fifth amendment is concerned, in that no criminal
penalty could possibly attach to her truthful answer to that question.
Mr. Moulder. I certainly concur with your statement, Mr. Jack-
son. You will have another opportunity if you wish now to answer
the question.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a preliminary
question before you proceed.
Mr. Moulder. I think we should stay on record of this point.
Again you are directed to answer the question, then you can go into
another angle of it, if you wish.
Mrs. Lebow. I conferred with my attorney, and he is satisfied
with my understanding that I am within my rights, and I still con-
tinue to stand on the first and fifth amendments, and not answer that
question.
Mr. WiRiN. Just a minute, please, she hasn't
Mrs. Lebow. And on the issue of pertinency.
Mr. Jackson. »Tust one thing more before I leave this. I think the
record should reflect the fact that the committee is not satisfied that
the answer is given in good faith in the invocation of the amend-
ments, and that the witness should have an understanding of the fact
that conceivably out of the refusal to answer might stem a citation
for contempt of the Congress. And I am sure that Mr. Wirin can
advise the witness not only of the import, but of what we are trying
to_ arrive at on the record. This is not in the nature of a threat, I
might add, but court decisions have made it imperative for us to
indicate that we do not a€cept an answer as being given in good
faith, and that we must warn a witness that there is a possibility of
contempt action being taken ; am I correct in that, Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. Moulder. That is correct, yes.
Mr. WiEiN. May I explain on good faith for one moment ?
Mr. Moulder. No, you may confer with your witness, but I want to
add to what Mr. Jackson has said. I wish to make this statement :
That there are many other questions which I am sure counsel for
the committee would like to ask this witness, and the interrogation
1218 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA
would proceed if you would answer the question which has been asked
you. But the witness fails to cooperate to any extent whatsoever.
Mr. Jackson. Let me say, if I may, to counsel, that I do not im-
pugn his advice in any way, this is liis advice. I merely must make on
the record an objection so far as I am concerned, that I do not accept
the answer as being given in good faith. This has nothing to do with
counsel's advice.
]Mr. WiRiN. I want to make a statement to show that the invoca-
tion of the fifth amendment is in good faith. If you let me say that, it
may clarify yom* doubt.
Mr, INIouLDER, In view of the fact that the witness will not answer
questions and, I believe, is clearly in contempt of the Congress, so the
witness is excused.
j\Ir. T.w-ENNER. Mr. Chairman, there is one question I think I
should ask her in light of the matters you have brought out.
]Mr. Moulder. All right.
Mr, TA^^:]srNER. Were you present in the hearing room when the
opening statement was made by the chairman yesterday morning?
Mrs. Leboav. No, I was not here yesterday morning.
Mr. Taa^nner. Have you read the opening statement that the
chairman made ?
Mrs. Lebow. No, I did not.
Mr. Taatexner. Well, you have raised the question of pertinency,
and that means the pertinency of the question to the subject under
inquiiy ; therefore, I hand you a copy of the opening statement. Your
counsel, I think, is familiar with it.
Mr. WiRiN. Well, Mr. "V^Hieeler was good enough to give me a copy
yesterday, but this witness has not seen it.
IVIr. Taa-exxer. Then I think the witness ought to be advised about
the purposes, the subject of the hearing and its purposes, and then be
directecl to answer.
Mr. WiRiN. Do you want her to take the time to sit here and read
all this?
Mr. Moulder. We will recess.
Mr. Tavexner. I am amazed that you haven't advised her.
]\Ir. WiRiN". Well, I give her good advice.
i\Ir. Moulder. We will take a 10-minute recess.
(Short recess taken.)
Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order.
The witness will resume the witness stand.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Lebow, the committee took a recess to give
you an opportunity to read the opening statement and the committee
resolution describing the subject and the purposes of this hearing.
Have you read them ?
]Mrs. Lebow. Yes, I did.
Ml-, Tavenner. Now, Mr. Chairman, I ask that you direct the wit-
ness to answer the question.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed.
Mr. Jackson. What is the pending question ?
Mr. M0U1.DER. Do you understand the question ?
Mr. WiRiN. I don't.
Mr. Tavexner. Then I think it ought to be read so it will be exactly
the same question.
(The question was read.)
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CAIjIFORNIA 1219
Mr. Jackson. Was this the List question penclin<^ wlien we recessed ?
Mr. Tavennek. Yes, tliis is the question which the witness refused
to answer.
Mr. Moulder. Yes, that is the question.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you read the witness the question ?
(The question was reread.)
Mr. Moulder. Now, you were directed to answer the question. The
witness still refused to answer. Do you wish to change your position
and answer the question that was pending after having read the open-
ing st atement referred to by counsel ?
Mrs. Lebow. I do not wish to change my position, however, I
would like to say sometliing. I am just a lay person, and I am here
Avith my counsel. I asked my comisel's advice on this question, and
this is the advice he gave me, and I am relating it to them.
Mr. Moulder. Well, you are again directed to answer the question.
Mrs. Lebow. I do not wish to answer this question on the grounds
of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Jackson. And you decline?
Mrs. Lebow. And I do decline.
Mr. Jackson. You decline to answer ?
Mrs. Lebow. And pertinency.
Mr. Tavenner. That is all.
Mr. Jackson. I have no further questions.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
Mr. Ta\tenner. Mrs. Eleanor Maas.
Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give to this subcoimnittee shall be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Maas. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ELEANOR MAAS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
FRANCIS J. McTERNAN
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please ?
Mrs. Maas. My name is Eleanor Maas.
Mr. Tavenner. How do you spell your last name ?
Mrs. Maas. M-a-a-s.
Mr. Tavenner. Miss or Mrs. ?
Mrs. ]\L\AS. ]\Its.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please
identify himself for the record ?
Mr. McTernan. My name is Francis J. McTernan, 440 Central
Towers, San Francisco, Calif.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you please state your place of residence?
Mrs. Maas. I live in San Francisco.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is the place of your birtli ?
Mrs. Maas. I was bom in New York City.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in the State of California?
Mrs. Maas. Since 1930.
Mr. Tavenner. TYhere have you lived in the State of California
besides San Francisco ?
Mrs. Maas. I lived in Los Angeles from 1930 until 1948, and from
1948 until the present time I have lived in San Francisco.
1220 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA
Mr. Tavenxer. Will you tell the committee, please, what your edu-
cational background has been ?
Mrs. Maas. I graduated from high school in Los Angeles, and at-
tended the University of California at Los Angeles where I received
a bachelor's degree.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ?
Mr. McTerxax. I don't believe she has finished.
Mrs. Maas. I have done some graduate work.
Mr. Tavenner. Where did you do your graduate work {
Mrs. Maas. At San Francisco State College.
Mr. Tavenner. That is located where ?
Mrs. ]NL\As. In San Francisco.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you complete that graduate work ?
Mrs. Maas. Well, I am currently doing the graduate work.
Mr. Tavenner. I see. What is your profession ?
Mrs. Maas. I am a schoolteacher.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been engaged in that pro-
fession ?
Mrs. Maas. I have been teaching since 1955.
Mr. McTernan. Just a moment.
Mrs. j\L\As. My last span of teaching, that is, has been since 1955.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your earlier span of teaching?
Mrs. M.VAS. I taught from 1940 to 1912.
Mr. Tavenner. That would be in Los Angeles ?
Mrs. Maas. In Los Angeles County.
Mr. Tavenner. You w^ent from Los Angeles to San Francisco in
19-48, prior to that time, prior to 1948, were you a member of the Com-
munist Party here in Los Angeles?
Mrs. Mass. I object to that question on the grounds of pertinence,
Mr. Jackson. Do you decline to answer ?
Mrs. Maas. I would appreciate it if the committee would explain
the pertinence of tliat question.
Mr. Jx\.cKS0N. Well, the pertinence aside, I don't know where coun-
sel, what direction he is moving, but there is a question pending, which
requires an answer; merely your objection to the question is not suiR-
cient for the purposes of the committee.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.
Mr. McTernan. May I have a moment to confer w4th the witness,
Mr. INIoulder?
Mr. Moulder. Surely.
Mr. McTernan. Thank you.
Mrs. Maas. I understand that under Supreme Court decision the
committee is required to explain the pertinence of the question to me.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Yes, I think you are right. Have you read the open-
ing statement by tlie chairman setting forth the committee's resolution
calling for this hearing?
Mrs. Maas. No, I have not.
JNIr. Tavenner. I don't know whether your counsel has seen it
or not.
Mr. McTernan. No, I have not, we just arrived in town.
Mr. Ta\t:nner, Well, I think I should give it to you and let you
examine it.
The same case to which you refer provides the pertinency may ap-
pear from the committee resolution itself.
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA 1221
Mr. Chairman, I suggest we permit this witness to stand down while
they are studying that, and we will call another witness, I think we
will save time.
Mr. Moulder. All right.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Don Ornitz.
Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give to this subcommittee shall be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Ornitz. I do.
TESTIMONY OF DONALD OENITZ, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
NATHAN L. SCHOICHET
Mr. ScHOicHET. Mr. Chairman, do I understand that the actual rule
of this committee is that there are to be no photos taken during the
inquiry ?
Mr. Moulder. During his testimony.
Mr. ScHoiCHET. Thank you.
Mr. Moulder. The taking of photogi'aphs will be prohibited.
Mr. ScHOiciiET. Thank you.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your name, please, sir ?
Mr. Ornitz. Donald Ornitz — 0-r-n-i-t-z.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying the witness identify
himself for the record ?
Mr. ScHoiCHET. My name is Natlian L. Schoichet, S-c-h-o-i-c-h-e-t.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Ornitz?
Mr. Ornitz. I was born in New York City in 1920.
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ?
Mr. Ornitz. I reside in West Los Angeles.
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in the State of California ?
Mr. Ornitz. Since 1928.
Mr. Tavenner. Tell the committee, please, what your formal edu-
cational training has been.
Mr. Ornitz. I graduated from high school, and went ten weeks to
Los Angeles City College.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the date of the completion of your work
at college ?
Mr. Ornitz. I can't say for sure.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Give us the approximate time.
Mr. Ornitz. 1937, 1 would say.
Mr. Ta\'enner. What is your occupation?
Mr. Ornitz. Free lance photographer.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Ornitz, we have for some time been studying
the extent and character and objectives of Communist Party activities
in the Los Angeles area. Have you been a member of the Communist
Party at any time while living in this area ?
Mr. Ornitz. I decline to answer this question respectfully on the
grounds of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know Dorothy Healey ?
Mr. Ornitz. 1 don't recall knowing Dorothy Healey.
Mr. Tavenner. She is chairman of the Southern California Dis-
trict of the Communist Party of the State of California. There is a
62-member district council in the Southern California District made
1222 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA
up of delegates from the 28 different units of the Communist Party in
this district; have you ever attended one of those meetings?
Mr. Ornitz. I decline to answer on the previous grounds stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you familiar with the report made by Dorothy
Healey in April of 1957 which was disseminated among the various
units of the Communist Part}^ in the Southern California District?
Mr. Oristitz. No, I don't.
INIr. Tavexner. One of the provisions in that report deals with
the work of Communist Party members in mass organizations. Have
you received any assignment from the Coimnunist Party to engage
in work in mass organizations ?
Mr, Ornitz. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment as I stated before.
Mr. Tavenner. A great deal of emphasis is apparently being placed
by the Communist Party in work among youth, although in Dorothy
Healey's report she does not set up just what form that work shall
take. It is the committee's information that you were interested at
one time actively in the work of the Young Communist League. So
first I ask you the question, is that information correct, were you
so engaged ?
Mr. Ornitz. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Ta\t:nner. Are you a member of the Communist Party now ?
Mr. Ornitz. No, I am not a member of the Communist Party now.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you affiliated with the Communist Party at
this time ?
Mr. Ornitz. No, I am not in any way, shape or form.
Mr. Ta\^enner. Wlien were you last a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Ornitz. I decline to answer that question on the grounds previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Ta\'enner. We have a letter here signed by 22 persons, you
are not one of tliem, dated December 14, of 1957, followed by another
letter of March 26, 1958, making complaints about the activities of
the Communist Party and resigning from the Communist Party.
Were you a member of the Commmiist Party prior to March 26, 1958 ?
Mr. Ornitz. I decline to answer that on the grounds stated.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist Party
at any time since March 26, 1958 ?
Mr. Ornitz. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Ta\^nner. Yes. Well then, the dividing line is some time in
the past 2 years.
Mr. Sciioichet. Not at all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Ornitz. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. No?
Mr, Ornitz. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Then when was it ?
Mr. Ornitz. I decline to answer the question on the same grounds
as before, and any conclusions that are drawn must be drawn.
Mr. Ta\t.nner. I have no further questions,
Mr, Moulder. Mr. Jackson ?
Mr. Jackson. Were you a Communist when you came in the room?
Mr. Ornitz. No, I was not.
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA 1223
Mr. Jackson. And as I understand your previous answer, you axe
not now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Ornitz. Correct, correct.
Mr. Jackson. Are you subject to Communist discipline in any way,
shape or form ?
Mr. Ornitz. I am not.
Mr. Jackson. Do you know what Communist discipline is ?
Mr. Ornitz. I decline to answer that on the same grounds that I
previously mentioned.
Mr. Jackson. I have nothing further.
Mr. INIoiiLDER. The witness is excused.
Mr. ScHOiCHET. Thank you.
Mr. Tavenner. If Mrs. Maas will return to the stand, please ?
TESTIMONY OF ELEANOR MAAS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
FRANCIS J. McTERNAN— Resumed
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Maas, you have now read the opening state-
ment of the chairman which was delivered at the opening of the
session ?
Mrs. Maas. Yes, I have.
]Mr. Tavenner. Of the subcommittee ?
Mrs. Maas. Yes, I have.
Mr. Tavenner. May I ask the witness be directed to answer the
question ?
Mr. INIoTJLDER. What is the pending question ?
jNIr. Tavenner. The question was whether or not she was a member
of tlie Communist Party at any time prior to the date in 1948 when
she moved from Los Angeles, Calif., to San Francisco.
Mrs. Maas. The statement by the chairman deals with matters
occurring since I left Los Angeles in 1948. I cannot see how your
question is pertinent to the inquiry as outlined by the chairman.
Mr. Tavenner. It relates to the extent, character, and objectives of
Communist Party activities in this area without any reference to time ;
we must have a beginning date.
Mrs. Maas. Is that the present scope of the inquiry ?
]\Ir. Tavenner. The present scope of the inquiry as to affiliation and
membership is since 1958, but the first part of the section relates to the
objects, extent, and character of Communist Party activities in tliis
area without reference to date.
Mrs. Maas. Would you please clarify which section you are re-
ferring to ?
Mr. Tavenner. Tlie section with the number (1) in front of it.
Mrs. Maas. Am I directed to answer that question ?
Mr. Moulder. Yes, you are directed to answer. May I explain,
too, in addition to what Mr. Tavenner said, I can't see that we are
specifically confined to the statements made in the opening statement
as to the pertinenc}' of the question. This is an introductory ques-
tion, and it is a foundation to many other questions which will be
asked you, very pertinent to many matters which this committee has
jurisdiction over. And I don't feel, regardless of how some Supreme
Court decisions maj- be construed, that we are confined to try to ex-
plain, as it would be elementary, along the line of pertinency of the
1224 INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA
questions. You are taking that position purely to thwart our attempts
to obtain information which you have possession of. You are directed
to answer the question.
]Mrs. Maas. I am one who does have a great deal of respect for the
decisions of the Supreme Court, but I must decline to answer those
questions, that question, on the ground of pertinency, and also on the
grounds of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Moulder. I am glad you got the fifth amendment in there ; you
have more protection there than you have under the other. You do
decline to answer on the ground it might tend to incriminate you and
subject you to prosecution to answer that question ; is that correct?
Mrs. JMaas. I have stated the grounds of my declination to answer.
Mr. Tavenner. When you moved from Los Angeles to San Fran-
cisco was your membership in the Communist Party transferred to
San Francisco ?
Mrs. Maas. Same answer.
Mr. Jackson. For the same reasons ?
Mrs. Maas. Yes, for the same reason. I would like to add, if I may
at this time, that this committee summoning me to Los Angeles seems
to be simply and solely to expose me and my employer to publicity
and ridicule, and merely for the sake of exposure rather than for the
enacting of legislation. I already, I am one of those who have been
under subpena on and off, and with threatened cancellation, and
calling for the past 5 months, and this committee has turned over
Mr. Jackson. Is the witness reading a prepared statement ?
Mrs. Maas. No, I am not.
This committee has turned over to my employer a file of alleged
information to which I have had no opportunity to see, nor access to.
I have no opportunity to see the charges of the accusations, and I feel
that this is quite unjust.
Mr. Jackson. Don't you believe that this offers you the best forum
in the world to deny any allegation which is not true ?
Mrs. Maas. No.
Mr. Jackson. You do not think so ?
Mrs. ]\Iaas. No, I do not.
Mr. Tavenner. What forum do you w^ant in order to deny any
allegation that you are a Communist ?
Mrs. ]\L\.As. I would like to have an opportunity where the basic
elements of f airplay rule.
Mr. Jackson. You will be given every courtesy and every basic ele-
ment of f airplay consistent with your own statements and attitudes.
You have reviled the committee. We certainly have not taken that
position relative to you. I think you have been treated with courtesy
in the witness chair, and you will be continued to be treated with
courtesy. Are you presently employed as a teacher ?
Mrs. Maas. Yes, I am.
Mr. Jackson. Are you presently a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. ML\AS. Same answer as previously given to tlie other questions,
to the previous question.
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN CALIFORNIA 1225
Mr. Tavenner. Thank you.
Mr. Moulder. I wish to ask a question. You say that we seek
to expose you. In wliat w^ay do we seek to expose you, how do you
understand we are trying to expose you, as what?
Mrs. Maas. I think the record will speak for itself on that.
Mr. Moulder. I think so.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further quest ions.
Mr. Jackson. I have no further questions.
Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused.
The committee will recess until 10 a.m. tomorrow morning.
(Whereupon, at 4 :30 p.m., Wednesday, the subcommittee recessed,
to reconvene at 10 a.m., Thursday, October 22, 1959.)
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