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us Doc 2.791 

Committee on Un-American Activities 
86th Congress 

Table of Contents 

(Since these hearings are consecutively paged 
they are ariranged by page number, instead of 
alphabetically by title) 

1. American National Exhibition, Moscow, "^njd 
July 1959 

2. Communist Training Operations, pt.l "^IQ ' 

5. Testimony of Clinton Edward Jencks S)'^^ 

k. Testimony of Arnold Johnson, Legislative ^ .| 
Director of the Commimist Party, U.S.A. 

5-7. Western Section of the Southern California . ^^ 
District of the Communist Party, pt.1-5 

8. Issues Presented by Air Reserve Center ^i^^s'" 
Training Manual 

9-10. Communist Training Operations, pt. 2-5 

11-12. Communist Activities Among Puerto Ricans in 
New York City and Puerto Rico, pt.1-2 


;' D 








OCTOBER 22, 1959 


Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities 



MAY 23 1960 

48192 WASHINGTON : 1960 

United States House of Representatives 

FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania, Chairman 



WILLIAM M. TUck, Virginia AUGUST E. .TOHANSEN, M.clugan 

Richard Arens, Staff Director 



I'AKT 1 


Synopsis vi 

Oc-tober 20, 15)59 : Testimony of— 

Daniel Fram-is Cohen 1118 

Aai'on K. Cohen 1125 

Daniel Bessie 1127 

Moiselle (J.) dinger 1133 

Afternoon session : 

Moiselle (J.) Clinger (resumed) 1137 

William Rubin 1155 

Ralph Hall 1158 

Adele Allen 1162 

Dr. Murray (Julius) (Joldberj; 1162 

Gilbert Drumniond 1166 

Adele Allen (resumed) 1168 

I'AKT 2 

Synopsis. {8cc Part 1, p. vi. ) 

October 21. 1!>5!) : Testinuaiy of — 

Robert Duff Brent 1171 

Harriet Blunienkranz 1174 

Lona Wells 1177 

Milton Kagan 1179 

Joe Sniderman 1181 

Paul Geiselman. Jr 1182 

John (F. ) Kranen 1187 

Afternoon session : 

Marion Miller 1189 

Phyllis Lebow 1214 

Eleanor Maas 1219 

Donald Ornitz 1221 

Eleanor Maas (resumed) 1223 

I'ART 3 

Synopsis. (See Part 1, p. vi. ) 

Octolter 22. 1959: Testimony of — 

A. L. Wirin (Statement) 1227 

Harper (W.) Poulson 1229 

Afternoon session : 

James George McGowan 1250 

William Wallace Norton. Jr 1253 

Mark Eugene Sink 1261 

Jack Burstein 1263 

Adele Kronick Silva 1264 

Index i 


uBLic Law 601, 79th Congress 

The leo-islation under which the House Coinniittee on Un-American 
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress [1946], chapter 
753, 2d session, which provides: 

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the Untied States 
of America in Congress assembled, * * * 


Rule X 


17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine Members. 

Rule XI 


(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities. 

(A) Un-American activities. . „,,,„,.. 

2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit- 
tee, is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i the extent, 
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United btateb, 
(ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and iin-American propa- 
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and attacks 
the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and 
(iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress m any necessary 

''The CommiUee"on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the 
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi- 
gation together with such recommendations as it deems advisable. 

For 'the purpose of anv such investigation, the Committee on Un-American 
Activities or anv subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such 
tlmerand places' within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, 
hS recessed or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance 
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents and 
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under 
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any 
member designated by any such chairman, and may y)e served by any person 
designated bv anv such chairman or member. 


Rule XII 


Sec 136 To assist the Congress in appraising the administration of the laws 
and in developing such amendments or related legislation as it may deem neces- 
sarv each standing committee of the Senate and the House ot Representatives 
shall exercise continuous watchfulness of the execution by the adn^inistrative 
agencies concerned of any laws, the subject matter o which >%Y'^ rn^nt^ rpnnS; 
tion of such committee; and, for that purpose, shall study all Pertment reports 
and data submitted to the Congress by the agencies in the executive branch ot 
the Covernment. 

House Resolution 7, January 7, 1959 

Rule X 


1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Con- 

(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine Members. 

* H: * * * * * 

Rule XI 


ij: :J: :); Hi =i= * 5f! 

18. Committee on Un-American Activities. 

(a) Un-American activities. 

(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee, 
is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (1) the extent, char- 
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, 
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American prop- 
aganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and 
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu- 
tion, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress 
in any necessary remedial legislation. 

The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the 
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi- 
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable. 

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American 
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times 
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has 
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance 
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and 
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under 
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any 
member designated by any such chairman, and maj- be served by any person 
designated by any such chairman or member. 

:*: :t: :(: * :^ :J: H« 

26. To assist the House in appraising the administration of the laws and in 
developing such amendments or related legislation as it may deem necessary, 
each standing committee of the House shall exercise continuous watchfulness 
of the execution by the administrative agencies concerned of any laws, the subject 
matter of which is within the jurisdiction of such committee; and, for that 
purpose, shall study all pertinent reports and data submitted to the House by 
the agencies in the executive branch of the Government. 


Part 3 


United States House of Representatives, 

Subcommittee of the 
Committee on Un-American Activities, 

Los Angeles^ Calif. 

PUBLIC hearings 

The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities 
met, piu-siiant to recess, at 10 a.m., in Courtroom No. 1, United States 
Post Office and Federal Building-, Los Angeles, Calif., Hon. Morgan 
M. Moulder (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding. 

Subcommittee members present: Hon. Morgan M. Moulder, of Mis- 
souri, and Hon. Donald L. Jackson, of California. 

Statf membere present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel, and Wil- 
liam A. Wheeler, investigator. 

Mr. Moulder. The subcommittee will be in order. 

This morning i\\& subcommittee received the following telegram 
from Mr. Wirin, counsel for the American Civil Liberties I^nion. The 
telegram reads as follows : 

Pursiiant rules your committee and statement at opening of Los Angeles hear- 
ings tliat any person named in course committee hearings be given early op- 
portunity appear to deny or explain adverse testimony, I desire appear briefly 
in behalf American Civil Liberties Union with respect testimony of Marion 
Miller mentioning American Civil Liberties Union. 

A. L. WiBiN, Counsel. 

In accordance with the rules and the practice of the committee, Mr. 
Wirin, would you care to come forward as a witness and be sworn ? 

Mr. W^iRiN. Thank you. 

Mr. Moulder. Do you solenndy swear that the testimony you are 
about to give before this subcommittee shall be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Wirin. I do. 


Mr. Wirin. Mr. Chairman, you don't want to interrogate me. May 
I state our position ? 
Mr. Moulder. Proceed. 



Mr. WiRix. I was present yesterday when ]Mrs. Miller gave her 
testimony, and I shall make no comment on any of the testimony ex- 
cept that portion which referred to the American Civil Liberties 

As I recall her testimony, it was to the effect that there had been 
vandalism at her home in opposition to a position she had taken, and 
that her husband liad communicated with the American Civil Liber- 
ties Union seeking help and didn't receivo it. 

Subsequent to the hearing I checked in my own office. I am counsel 
for the American Civil Liberties Union of Southern California. And 
I checked with the officials at the office, the main office of the Ameri- 
can Civil Liberties Union. 

First, there is no record of any kind at the office of the American 
Civil Liberties Union in, in contradistinction to mine, of any claim 
made by any person with respect to alleged vandalism at the home of 
the Millers. 

Moreover, if such a claim were made, it would come to my attention, 
as counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union. I have been coun- 
sel for more years than I need now mention ; in any event, for a period 
longer than the Millers' testimony, and not only do I recall no com- 
[)laint or claim of vandalism at their home, but I am confident that no 
such claim came to my attention; and, finally, had such a claim come 
to my attention, as counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union, or 
to the American Civil Liberties Union, it would have been treated ex- 
actly as any claim of vandalism, of vigilantism against any person; 
it would have been thoroughly investigated, and a protest w^ould have 
been made with respect to such vandalism, whether or not we disa- 
greed Avith the views of the person who was involved, and we would 
have either made a public protest, or, if the facts warranted, filed 
civil suit for damages, a procedure with which this committee is not 
completely unacquainted. 

So, insofar as the American (^ivil Liberties Union is concerned, we 
draw no distinction with respect to any person. If any person's 
rights, no matter his race or his opinion, are violated, we take exactly 
the same action, and we would have in this instance, although, need- 
less to say, many of us personally do not share the view as to the role 
of informants and as to their value that others in this room have, but 
that is entirely beside the point. 

Mr. Moulder. Any questions ? 

Mr. Jackson. No. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no questions. 

Mr. WiRiN. Thank you. 

Mr. ]\IouLDER. Call the next witness. 

Mr. Ta\t:nner. ]Mr. Plarper Poulson. 

]Mr. ]MotiLDER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are 
about to give before this subcommittee shall be the trutli, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you (xod i 

Mr. PoT'nsoN. T do. 



Mr. Tavennek. Will you state your uanie, please, sir \ 
Mr. PouLSON. My name is Harper l*oulson. 

Mr. Tavenxep.. Will counsel acconipanying the witness j)lease 
identify himself for the record? 

Mr. Wiring. A. L. W^irin of Los Angeles. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where and when were you bom, Mr. Toulson '. 

Mr. Poui.soN. I was born in Lincoln, Nebr., August 4, 1913. 

Mr. Tavenner. AVhere do you now reside? 

Mr. PouLSOx. In Los Angeles. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been a resident of the State of 

Mr. PouLSON. I came out here short Iv after I got out of the Ariny in 
AVorld War II. I guess it was April 10I(). 

Mr. Tavenner. How long did vou serve in the Armed Forces of the 
United States ? 

Mr. PouLsoN. Two years. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your 
formal educational training has been ? 

Mr. PouLSON. The usual grammar school and high school. That 
was East Orange, N. J. Then I studied at Oberlin College in Ohio, 
and then completed a B.A. at Western Reserve University in Cleve- 
land, Ohio. 

Mr. Tavenner. When was that ? 

Mr. PouLsoN. To the best of my recollection, it must have been 
somewhere around 1935. I don't think you want me to stop now- and 
count fingers on it, do you ? 

Mr. Tavenner. That is accurate enough. 

Mr. PouLSON. After that I worked for a while, and then went to 
the University of London, where I studied for a little more than 2 
years ; no degree as a resvdt. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a Ehodes scholar ? 

Mr. PouLSON. Xo, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. What was the period of time in which you pursued 
your educational training in London ? 

Mr. PouLSON. That would be the autunni of 1936 through early 1939. 

Mr. Tavenner. The committee has had a number of witnesses be- 
fore it who did receive part of their educational training in London, 
wdiere they became acquainted with the activities of the Communist 
Party in London. Did you have any experience with the Communist 
Party in England ? 

Mr. PouLSON. Mr. Tavenner, I am going to answer that question 
right away. In fact, the answer is yes. But I would like to explain 
something, if I may, briefly. 

I am an unwilling witness here. However, I intend to answer any 
and all questions pertaining to myself, my actions or beliefs at any 
time. I am not going to, however, answer questions relating to my 
associations with any other individuals. I am going to invoke, on 
advice of counsel, the protection of the first and fifth amendments to 
the Constitution, and there may be at times some question of relevancy. 

48192—60 — pt. 3 2 

1230 lN^■^:STI(iATION of communist activities in CALIFORNIA 

I Avoiild like to explain, still briefly, that I have never done anything, 
I am sure, that would give me any cause to have fear about testifying 
about anything I may have ever done or thought. 

However, I liave observed that acts which in themselves are in no 
way illegal sometimes, when wrapped up in conspiracy charges, be- 
come acts which have the efl'ect of making a person liable legally, and 
I have no control ovei- the acts of others with whom T may have asso- 
ciated, and I therefore feel that I need the protection of the fifth 
amendment of the Constitution with regard to such questions. 

Mr. Jacksox. Mr. Chairman 'i 

Mr. Moulder. Yes, Mr. Jackson. 

Mr. Jackson. Following on the statement, I am sure that counsel 
has advised the witness of the possible jeopardy of the course of action 
lie proposes to follow. 

Is this the case, do you i-ealize that by answering certain questions 
in a given line of questioning and declining to answer others having 
to do with the same subject matter, that conceivably you will have 
waived your rights under the interpretations of the law i 

Mr. PouLSON. Congressman Jackson, as you know, my attorney is 
Mr. Wirin, who has a lot of experience in these things. I am guiding 
myself by his counsel. However, it is also true that I think the com- 
mittee would want to know whethei- I am fully aware of the possible 
consequences of my course of action. To the best of my belief, my 
course of actions do not place me in jeopardy, but I am aware of the 
fact that there may be differences of opinion here, that there are even 
ambiguities, perhaps, in the legal ])icture. "What I am doing I am 
doing because I feel that I have to do it, having been summoned 

Mr. Jacksox. I have no quarrel with whatever course of action you 
feel desirable to take. However, again, we must make the record 
clear, and for that reason T did want to know whether you were aware 
of possible jeopardy. 

Ml'. PouLsox. Yes. I understand this, and I understand the neces- 
sity for you to say certain things for the record. 

Ml'. Jacksox. Tliank you. 

Afr. AViRix. May I confer for just a minute'^ 

Mr. Jacksox. Yes. 

Mr. Poui.sox. May I, on advice of counsel, add a word to what I 
just said? I repeat tliat I appreciate fully and I think T understand 
your position. I do think that it should be clear that counsel advises 
me, and I believe that I am not, in fact, waiving my rights, and I 
cei'tainly don't want to waive any of my constitutional rights by the 
course of action I pui'sue. 

Mr. Jackson. Tliat decision, of course, would not be made in this 

However, the i-ecord nnist be made clear to the extent that you have 
knowledge of a possibility of jeopardy. 

Mr. Tavexxer. Mr. Poulson, we have learned through other hear- 
ings that we have conducted in this area within the recent past about 
the reorganization of the Communist Party in Southern California, 
the division of the CVimmunist Pai'ty of the State of California into 
two districts, the Northern and tht^ Southern District, and that the 


Soutliei'ii District is (•.<>mj)<)s<'fl of appi-()xini;ih>ly 2S seel ions. Arc 
you a menihei' of any one of tIif)S(' iiS sections ? 

Ml". PonLsoN. No, 1 am not, Mr. Tavennci-, and the lirst lime I 
liad knowled^-e of all of the organizational infoniiation of which yon 
just s})oke was when 1 read about it in (he newspapers, as alleged dnr- 
ing the course of these hearings. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you attended any district council meeting 
of the Southern California District of the Communist Party since 
April 1957? 

Mr. PouLSON. Perhaps we could simply facilitate matters here if 
I explain that I left the Connnunist Party in Januaiy, the first week 
of January of 1957. This would make it simpler to couch questions. 

Mr. Tavexxer. Well, have you attended a district coinicil meeting 
of the Communist Party since April 1957? 

Mr. PouLSox'^. Well, it would follow that I have not. 

Mr. Tavex'ner. It would not necessarily follow. 

Mr. PouLSOx-^. I beg your pardon. I didn't mean any disrespect, 

Mr. Tavenner. I undei'stand, but I just want to know whether you 
attended a meeting. 

Mr. PouLSOx. No, sir. 

Mr. WiRiN. He will tell you. 

Mr. PouLSON. No, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. What time in Januaiy 1957 did you sever your 
membership with the Communist Party? 

Mr. PouLSON. It is almost beyond human power to be exact about 
it, but I would say it was — if I said January 1, 1957, that would be a 
very truthful answer. It may have been the 3d or the 2d. 

Mr. Tavenner. Was that prior to the Sixteenth National Conven- 
tion of the Communist Party or subse(|uent to it? 

Mr. PouLSOx\ I honestly am not sure about the date at wdiicli the 
convention was held, but it 

Mr. Tavenxer. February 9-12, 1957. 

Mr. PouLSOx^ But it seems to me that it was prior to it, because part 
of my complete decision to leave the party, as I recall, included — was a 
conviction on my part that that convention was not going to change 

Mr. Tavex^xer. In other words, you were disagreeing at that time 
^\'ith the objectives of the Communist Party, and you thought those 
objectives would not be changed? 

Mr. PouLSOx\ I Avas disagreeing at that time with some of the con- 
duct of the part}', some of its objectives, and I was of the opinion that, 
while there were many people who did disagree, they were not going 
to be able to make their views effectively felt within the organization. 

Mr. Tavexxer. Because of the domination of the policies of the 
Communist Party from the top, is that what you mean? 

Mr. PouLsox. Yes. I believe that the Communist Party was organ- 
ized in a way which made it very difficult for individuals within the 
organization who did diifer to gain support for an effective expression 
of their views. 

Mr. Ta\t:nx"j:r. Now, what were the objectives of the Commimist 
Pai'ty at that time with which you disagreed ? 


Mr. PouLSON. Not in order to sidestep your question, but in order 
to facilitate matters, would it be all right if I answered in the form 
of stating; what my beliefs were ^ I think it a little easier to organize. 

Mr. Tavenner. No. I am not interested in what your beliefs were. 
T am interested 

Mr. Pori.soN. I mean on that subject. 

Mr. TA^•ENNER. I am interested only in what the objectives of the 
Communist Party were. 

Mr. PouLSON. All right. I will try to 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I think it would be very interesting to 
hear the witness' statement in the form he proposes to make it, going a 
step further, and pointing out specifically as you go along these things 
to which you took exception or to which you objected. 

Mr. PouLSON. This would inevitably come out, and I felt that it 
might be — give a more completely truthful picture. 

Mr. MoiTLDER. You may proceed along that line. 

Mr. PouLSON. Thank you. I found myself, by the time at which I 
left the Communist Party, convinced that while there might be many 
good things to be said about a Socialist method of organizing the 
economy of a country, it was inconceivable that we in America would 
ever have a form of organization politically and in other respects 
which would resemble that of any other country, the Soviet Union, 
or any other country. I came to the conclusion that in America, the 
United States, we are so wedded to democracy, to both its contents 
and its forms, whatever weaknesses our democracy may have and 
however often we may slip in enforcing it, we are so wedded to it that 
any economic changes that would come in this country would have 
to come about through constitutional processes, and in ways which 
are native to our United States way of life. 

Now, I had believed, that is, by and large, all of the time that I 
was in the Communist Party — and you may think me mistaken — that 
it had been my impression that all Communists in the United States 
believed this. 

I am aware that historically there was a time when this was not so, 
but that ))redated my being in the Communist Party. 

As you know, the constitution of the Communist Party of the United 
States carried a provision against advocating the overthrow of the 
Government by force or violence and said that anyone who did do so 
should be expelled from the party, and, believe me, when I read that, 
I believed it fully, as I felt many other Conmiunists did. 

But what happens in life, you see, is that you may believe in a prin- 
ciple, and yet when you are v/orking out practical day-to-day tactics 
or attitudes toward other people, you find that you are being led into 
taking tactical positions which may be interpreted by others as not 
concerned with the principle you believe in, and you may find that 
some of your fellow workei-s in an organization are so — how will I put 
it — lopsided in their weighing of the evidence, as regards this coun- 
try or other countries, that with the best will in the Avorld they sim- 
ply can't come out to what you consider to be an objective, correct 
eA'aluation of the situation. 

I would like to distinguish liere between two things for the sake of 
r-larity. It was always uncomfortable — I think any Communist would 
tell von this if he were talking about it — to be a member of the Com- 


numist, Pai-ly, because it was hard work, and il was a pretty dedicated 
proposition. It wasn't a populai- tliino- to <lo, and, you know, if you 
did it, usually, you wei'e tied up. 

But we are all used to putting up with certain curbs on our individ- 
ual freedom, w-hatever oro-anization or situation we find ourselves in, 
and so, even thouffb one might not like the idea of being limited in the 
expressions of one's opinions, you will put ujo with it if you felt that 
t he goals justified it, if you felt that over all the goals were fine, good, 
luuuan goals. 

1 don't mean to paint a comparison, but you, for exam})le, as an 
office holder, certainly submit every day to certain kinds of disciplines. 
You don't say everything you feel like saying as an individual or do 
everything you feel like doing. There are problems of good manners, 
l)roblems of getting along with other people, problems of this kind of 

So that mere impatience or annoyance with this kind of difficulty, I 
don't think woidd have been enough to make me leave the Communist 

There had to be a change of belief as to how history was moving 
and as to what direction I as an individual wanted to see history 

There was a time wdien I did feel, although I didn't think socialism 
or communism, if it came in the United States, would resemble that 
in the Soviet Union, you know, to the letter; there was a time, never- 
theless, when I did feel that we w^ere caught in the world today in a 
struggle between reaction and progress, and to me at that time a move, 
as I saw it, forward to socialism and communism represented progress. 

I felt that history couldn't stand still, and if we didn't move for- 
ward we Avould move back, and like a lot of people I felt, for example, 
back in the 1930's, that commmiism by its behavior in the League of 
Nations, by its general philosophy, represented the only effective al- 
ternative to fascism, and I hated fascism, and there is no — I made up 
my mind wdiich way I wanted to go. 

I don't believe that that is the choice with which we are confronted 
any more. I am not sui-e whether I believe that it ever was, but, at 
any rate, at the moment I am convinced that the big issues for all of 
us today are the problems of the preservation of peace and retention 
of the greatest freedom of the individual that we can possibly retain, 
because I feel that that is part and parcel of making life rich and full 
and meaningful to the human race. 

If that is true, then to get bogged down in hot and heavy battling 
over, you know, the Socialist form of economy — this is the capital 
fomi of economy, and letting this develop into a kind of life and death 
struggle, which could lead to a third world war if it were not confined 
to debate, or within this comiti*y, which could lead to Americans los- 
ing trust in each other — and shoving each other instead of commimi- 
cating with each other, then I think that is dangerous, and I think that 
is putting one's emphasis on issues which history has already moved 
away from. 

It is my impression, frankly, that the Soviet Union and the United 
States both have tremendous problems. I think their problem, where 
individual liberty is concerned, is greater than our problem here. I 
think we have more of it here. But we both have it. 


I think both countries are concerned with the kind of problem that 
seems to be bothering all outstanding thinkers today, how can the 
individual remain free in a world which is becoming highly popu- 
lated, highly technicalized, industrialized, urbanized, so that it is so 
easy for the individual to feel that he counts for nothing, but only the 
elite governs his country, and nothing he does can make any diU'erence. 

Mr. Moulder. May I interrupt ^ Is that an answer to the (piestion '? 

Mr. WiRiN. It is a little. May I speak to the witness for a moment ? 

Mr. Jackson. Yes. 

Mr. WiRiN. And give some legal and other advice? 

I reminded him what the question was. 

Mr. PouLSON. I hadn't forgotten, but I apologize if I have been 

Mr. Jackson. I find the testimony extremely interesting. 

Mr. PouLsoN. I hope the committee — I think the committee under- 
stands that these are such complex questions that if you begin to 
oversimplify, it is very easy 

Mr. WiRiN. However, he is a lawyer and I am a lawyer and Mr. 
Jackson is a lawyer. The question is 

Mr. Jackson. I am no lawyer, I am sorry. 

Mr. WiRiN. Xo? 

^Ir. Jackson. We have been ai'guing all these years. A lot of law- 
has rubbed oil' on me. But I am no lawyer. 

Mr. WiRiN. You certainly sound like one, like the best of them, I 

Mr. PouLSON. Mr. Tavenner, if I may, to return to what, after all, 
was the 

Mr. Moulder. Yes, let's tiy to be as directly responsive to the ques- 
tion as you can. 

Mr. PouLSON. To return to what I think was the essence of the 
question, you can see that, feeling as I did, I felt that the Connnunist 
Party had lost its relationship to reality in America, if it evei- had 
it, and in the world, and was bound to become more and more an 
ineffective set of peoj^le who, no matter how sincere, simi)ly didn't 
understand the times in which they were living, and that this w^as 
going to lead continuallj^ to seek to mount campaigns and to take 
positions wdiich w-ere, in some cases, academic and in others, in my 
opinion, provocative. They weren't going to win adherence to their 
l)osition. If anything, they Avere going to alienate })eople from even 
those parts of their program wnth which generally most Americans 
wouldn't disagree and 

Mr. Tavenner. In other words, it actually ham])ered good causes? 

Mr. PouLSON. This was part of my conclusion, yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Well, I gather from your statement that you also 
disagreed violently with the Communist Party's exercising of control 
over the individual, that the individual didn't have the freedom of 
action Avithin the Communist Party that you thought he should have? 

Mr. WiRiN. "Violent" as a figure of speech, I take it? I don't 
understand the question. 

Mr. Taat':nxer. I think the witness understands. 

Mr. WiRiN. All right. 

Mr. PouLsoN. Let me try to answer it as I understand it, and if I 
have misunderstood then you will correct me. 


I linve jili'pndy in<lic;i(ofl llial I reel that hinnnii hciiifrs pnl up with 
curbs on (heir iudividunl tVccdoui in oA'crylhiu^- 1 hey do; in tlu' slioj) I 
dou'l talk back (o the foicman whenexei- I feel like it. 1 want to keep 
my job. 

itowever, I am not tryinii- to split hairs. It is (juite obvious that in 
an orii-anization like tlie Conununist Puily the deoree of conformity 
which tends to be produced «roes far beyond that, as most oi-jLjaniza- 
tions, and mi^ht be likened only to the most dedicated religious 
groups or other moral crusades. 

Mr. Tavenner. They called it democratic centralism, didn't they? 

Mr. PocLsox. There is a procedure theoretically, and actually it is 
adhered to in the letter, whereby any member of the party makes with 
a dili'erence in the groui) of which he is a member, and if he isn't 
satisfied with the outcome of the decision there, he can go an echelon 
higher, and all the way up to the central committee, or whatever it is 
now, and the national convention of the party. 

But, in practice, eA'en when you adhere to this, the letter, it does 
place the dissenter in the position of being an individual bucking 
committees or grouj)s which, by and large, do adhere around an estab- 
lished line or position, and there is a ban on what is called forming 
a faction, which means a group in opposition to an established policy. 

And my experience has indicated to me that nnless you are going to 
form groups in opposition to established policies, you have no way of 
changing policy. You have effectively stifled opposition. 

Mr. TA\Ti:NNER. You were aware even before the holding of the Six- 
teenth National Convention of the Communist Party in New York in 
P^ebruary 1957 of the situation of Joseph Clark, the editor-in-chief of 
the Daily Worker, and also John Gates, weren't you? 

Mr. PorLsox. Seems to me Gates was the editor-in-chief and Clark 
was a foreign correspondent and columnist. 

Mr. Tavenxer. Correct. 

Mr. PouLSOx-^. May I confer with my attorney ? 

Mr. Tavexx'er. My question was whether you were familiar with 
this situation in which they found themselves in the Communist 

Mr. PouLSOX'. I was reading at that time not only the People's 
Woi'ld but also, when I got ahold of copies of it, the Daily Worker, 
and the Sunday Worker, and 1 was reading their statements and edi- 
torials, and I was aware of the situation in which they found them- 
selves, yes. 

Mr. Tavenxer. When you objected to a Conmiunist Party line, 
you immediately became a revisionist? 

Mr. PouLsox. Yes, that's true. It is hard for me to get too indig- 
nant, because I was guilty so often on the same thing. 1 called other 
people revisionists and got self-righteous and called them names, but 
it is a fact 

Mr. Tavexxer. The point of it is, you reacted unfavorably, although 
it took some time to translate that into real action on your part, to the 
lack of freedom that the individual had within the Communist Party ? 

Mr. PouLsoN. Yes, that is true. 

Mr. Tavexxer, And that was one of the practices of tlie (^onunu- 
nist Party which caused you finally to break with it? 


Mr. PouLSox. That was extremely uncomfortable, and I disliked it 
very much. But I have to say in honesty that I don't know whether 
that alone would have been enough to get me out of the party. 

Mr. Tavexner. No, I didn't mean to indicate that alone 

Mr. Moulder. The point you raised^ — maybe I got an erroneous 
impression — but you favored, if any changes were to be made in our 
form of Government, that they be achieved through our constitutional 
processes; did I understand you to believe or to understand that in 
the Communist Party they did not or do not wish to follow that 
procedure ? 

Mr. PouLSOx. Sir, it was always my belief, and I am being fairly 
honest, that the Communist Party of the United States, while I was a 
member of it, believed in following constitutional processes, and, to the 
best of my knowledge and belief, this was the opinion of the party, and 
certainly was my opinion. 

Mr. Moulder. I got the impression that was your opinion, but not 
that of the party. 

Mr. PouLSox. No, but I had this feeling, that some of the membere 
of the party had evidently lost faith in these constitutional processes 
to the extent that, while even in their own mind they might say that 
they still believed in them, they lacked the conviction which would 
enable them in the American arena to try to accomplish the changes in 
that way. 

Of course, I thought the result was, they just weren't going to get 
anywhere. It wasn't that I was afraid or thought that these people 
were going to try to organize the forcible overthrow of the Govern- 
ment; I just felt that they were accomplishing nothing and couldn't 
accomplish anything because of their lack of real w^orking faith in the 
processes by which we thrash out political questions in America. 

Mr. Moulder. Well, that arrives to about the same conclusion that 
I made; that was your opinion that you had of the members of the 
(^ommunist Party. 

Mr. PouLsox. I am not trying to hedge, sir. 

]\[r. Moulder. I understand. 

Mr. PouLsox. But the part is that I do not happen to agree with the 
committee that the ("ommunist Party is an illegal conspiracy, and 
therefore I can't pennit myself to be put in a position of seeming to 
agree with that. 

Mr. jMoi'ldek. Proceed. 

Mr. Jacksox. Let's add a little something to the record. That is 
not a determination made solely by this committee. This is a deter- 
mination that has been made by all three branches of the Federal 
Government, and the chairman reminds me, on several occasions by the 
Supreme Court of the ITnited States. So it is not — I want the record 
to show — we didn't think up this idea that this was a conspiracy. 

Mr. PouLsox. I didn't mean to indicate 

Mr. Jacksox'. I realize. 

Mr. PouLSox. I happen to feel that the court decisions are still 
somewhat contradictory. In the Schneiderman case the Supreme 
Coiu't held it was possible to be a Communist and that this was com- 


pletely compatible with believing in constitutional changes in the 
United States and wasn't illegal in itself per se. 

It is a muddy picture. I wish it weren't so muddy. 

Mr. Jackson. We operate as a committee in this area at the behest 
of the House of Eepresentatives and the Congress of the United States. 

Mr. PouLSON. I understand that. 

Mr. Jackson. Which is a fact that is frequently overlooked for one 
reason or another. We are not self-appointed judges to determine 
whether or not it is a conspiracy. Our job is to attempt to find out to 
the extent we can whether or not it is. That is our sole function. 

Mr. Tavenner. You say you wish the question were not so muddy ? 

Mr. PouLSON. I am not talking about your question, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. No, I understand, the question of the validity of the 
Communist Party. This committee has never gone to the extent of 
recommending so far that the Communist Party be outlawed, but 
what would be your position on that? Do you think it should be, 
in light of what you know of it ? 

Mr. PouLSON. In the light of what I know of the Communist Party, 
as far as the last two years are concerned, very little, but I don't 
know of any reason to suppose that it has changed very essentially. 
In the light of what I know, I feel that while there are certain con- 
sequences that no constitution is going to protect you from, if you 
espouse an unpopular idea — this follows — that by and large the Com- 
munist Party is composed of sincere men and women who are try- 
ing to be patriotic, although their opinion as to what is patriotic may 
be at loggerheads with even that of most other Americans, and I feel 
that they shoidd not be outlawed. 

Moreover, I feel that the attempt to outlaw the party in fact, if 
not in law, de facto if not de jure, by making it very uncomfortable, 
economically and in terms of social pressure, to be a member; I feel 
that the attempt to do that is impractical. 

I, for example, suffered a lot of consequences from being a Com- 
munist when I remained one, but these sanctions didn't drive me out 
of the Communist Party. I am normal and I am human and I am 
nervous about adverse economic consequences that might affect my 
family and so on, but, nevertheless, they didn't drive me out and I 
don't think they would drive anybody else out, and they may even 
have the effect, you know — here is where American tradition comes 
into play again. Somebody says to you, "You can't say that," and 
one's reaction is, by golly, I am going to say it. 

It is not an altogether bad thing. Sometimes it can be, lead to 
adolescent behavior, childish behavior. You let yourself get pro- 
voked. But it is a kind of stubborn belief that everybody has a right 
to his opinion and to speak his piece. 

]\Ir. IMouLDER. What is the next question ? 

Mr. Tavenner. You stated that your disagreement with the Com- 
munist Party, exercise of control was one of the reasons tliat caused 
you to leave the Connnunist Party. What other policy of the Com- 
munist Parly was it witli Avhidi you objected and which i)layed a part 
in your leaving the party ? So far you have onh' stated one. 

48192 — 60 — pt. 3- 


Mr. PouLSON. I felt there were several fields — I think it is a little 
too close now — I felt there were several fields into which I can break 
down n\\ objections, and of conrse they related — these things always 
did — I felt that the Commiuiist Party had become too arrogant, too 
self-righteous in its relation to other groups of Americans; that it 
didn't have proper regard for or respect for or understanding of the 
opinions of Republicans, Democrats, the Negro people and their 
organizations, the Jewish people and their organizations, the trade 
unions. I felt that it was insisting on its own dogmatic interpreta- 
tion and was therefore presuming, like a government in exile, for 
example, as one writer put it, to hand down — condescending to these 
other groups of Americans what kind of a position they should take, 
and I thought this was not only self-defeating, but flatly Avrong. 

This was in the field of its relations with domestic groups. 

Then, with regard to the fight for peace in the world — and I don't 
think there is much question but Avhat the Communists that I knew 
wanted peace — there was always a disposition to explain away any 
show of power politics by the Soviet Union as somehow or other a 
great blow for peace. 

Now, our country sometimes plays power politics ; all governments 
do; and I get a little ashamed when we are hypercritical about the 
things we do, that I thought that a movement which prided itself on 
being honest and, you know, very morally highminded, ought not to 
confuse itself by confusing what seemed to me to be power politics 
with unselfish work for peace, and I am referring to a whole number 
of things. 

I felt that any statement by government leaders of the Soviet Union 
or the United States — I am talking now about the Commmiist Party 
beliefs — which were bellicose or provocative were dangerous in to- 
day's world, and I felt that if they wanted to help the cause of peace 
they ought to confine themselves to peaceful moves and peaceful state- 
ments, and even might sometimes have a slap in the face now and 
then and not be provoked by it. I thought that that would be very 
much truer of a government which wanted, above all things, to 
preserve world peace, and I felt that the refusal or inability of other 
Communists, some of them, at any rate, to understand the actions 
of the Soviet Government in what I felt was an objective and critical 
way had an adverse effect on the reputation of Communists in the 
eyes of other people, and had an adverse effect on their own clarity 
of thought. 

I felt that they were kidding themselves. 

Then take a particular thing like the Negro question or, you know, 
the struggle of the Negro people in the United States for full and 
equal citizenship without discrimination. I happen to be one of those 
who think that the Negro people have been doing a magnificent job 
on this score for themselves. I think they have shown great restraint; 
they have shown tremendous knowledge of how not to be provoked, 
and nevertheless make their own point and make it with increasing 
effectiveness, and yet I felt that the Communist Party was still trying 
to advise in a manner I felt was ]Dresumptuous, and now I think it 
was presumptuous all the tioie T was in the Communist Party, in some 
re.sperts and some degrees. 


Mr. Moulder. You think they were trying to advise; you mean also 
agitate, to encourage racial strife? The Communist Party lias done 

Mr. PouLSON. The Communist Party believes a certain course of 
action is a correct one, unless some of its members are too tired or too 
nervous or inept; it tries to forward this course of action by agitation, 
by publication, by statement, and actually by participating in cam- 
paigns, and so on. 

Mr. Moulder, You made a very voluminous statement, you could 
write a book about when you referred to it as a government in exile. 
I think that is very descriptive. 

Mr. PouLso>r. I think it is a descriptive statement for the ponder- 
osity of Communist Party statements on occasion. I can't claim credit 
for the phrase. 

Mr. Jackson. I imagine we could probably, Mr. Poulson, find a 
great many more areas of disagreement than we could find in agree- 
ment, but I was particularly impressed by your reference to the 
Negroes having met their own problems in this country. The prob- 
lems are many, and many of them we don't like, and we see no reason 
for their existence. 

There was a colloquy here yesterday between one of the witnesses 
and myself, and I thought afterwards that here in the city of Los 
Angeles there was given one of the finest demonstrations in the Los 
Angeles Memorial Coliseum when 93,000 members of every race, every 
creed, eveiy color, turned out to do honor to a Negro baseball catcher. 
That was a great demonstration. 

Wliat we like to think of as the American spirit was demonstrated 
there better than in any single thing that has happened in this com- 
munity for a long time. 

The records of this committee are replete with testimony fi-om 
Negroes who have been in the Communist Party and who have come 
out of it frustrated and embittered by what they found, as opposed to 
what they had hoped to find when they went in. I think that because 
of the many difficulties which the Negroes have experienced in this 
country, that the record they have achieved in handling many of their 
own problems is a remarkable one, and I was very happy to hear you 
say so. 

Mr. PouLsox. I assume you would agree also with me that we will 
be very happy Avhen the day comes when no Negro membei- or any 
other such minority group is ever subjected to indignity or discrimina- 
tion because of his color or his race. 

Mr. Jackson. I a.m sure that all of the members of the committee 
would be in full accord with you on that point. 

Mr. Moulder. Our records show that even though the Communist 
Party has concentrated its attentioii on the Negro ])eople or groups 
in this countiy, has tried to prey upon the prejudice and so-called 
discrimination, it has had less success with the Negroes in that respect 
than any other. 

Mr. Poulson. I don't want to 

Mr. Moulder. Let us not prolong the discussion. 

The next question, please. 


Mr. PouLSON. I would like to say, if I may, that I don't subscribe to 
the view that Communists have been trying to use Negroes. In my 
opinion, there has been a sincere desire to help. I feel it has often 
been misguided and misdirected and has led to the pursuing of tactics 
which could easily enough be interpreted as 

Mr, Moulder. We have evidence where they have deliberately agi- 
tated trouble and created trouble in the guise of racial discrimination, 
which they themselves have created, in order to agitate and stir up 
trouble with the Negro people. 

Proceed with the next question. 

Mr. Tavenner. Is there any other objective of the Communist 
Party which played a part in your resignation from it? 

Mr. PouLsox. Well, specifically, as you know, following the Twen- 
tieth Congress in the Soviet Union, where that famous secret non- 
secret report was made, there was an awful lot of discussion in the 
left wing in this counti-y, and even in liberal and conservative 
circles, an attempt to evaluate, what does this mean. A lot of people, 
some of whom I suppose have subsequently left the Communist 
Party — others of whom may not have — began to develop the idea of 
trying to create a different kind of radical movement in the United 
States, which could give some kind of leadership, as they felt in the 
ideological fight to win the American people's thinking. 

An awful lot of discussion took place on the question. Well, should 
there be a new kind of Communist Party or should there be a new kind 
of Socialist Party, or should there be a new kind of Progressive 
Party, or what in the world should there be. 

But I came to the conclusion that all of these proposals were ineffec- 
tive and stillborn, and missed the main point, which was if you want 
to look for radicalism in American life you look for it in the same 
places that you find diehardism ; you find radicalism in the Republi- 
can, in the Democratic Parties ; you find it in the Protestant Churches ; 
you find it everywhere. 

In other words, if you want to find people who have advanced un- 
derstanding and the need to fight for peace in the world today, you 
can't look to any one sector of Americans to find this; you find it 
everywhere, and if you want to find people who are terribly and 
deeply concerned with human freedom, you find it not only among 
radicals, but you find it among people whom radicals sometimes call 
reactionaries, very often a wellspring of the motivation of people 
that radicals call reactionaries, is their deep concern with human 

Mr. Moulder. Let's proceed with the question, get off this discourse 
of philosophy. 

Mr. PouLsoN. I am sorry. What I meant was that I just couldn't 
agree that there was any effective role in America today for an or- 
ganization which could be called a vanguard organization or radical 
organization. I don't object to other people being in it. They have 
a right. But not for me. 

Mr, Tavenner, There has been a very strong indication, in fact, it 
can be documented, that an effort was to be made to organize the 
people who withdrew from the Communist Party into another or- 
ganization of some type, which would still continue to cooperate with 
the Communist Party in its objectives. That note was sounded in a 


list of grievances signed by 22 people, members of the Communist 
Party here in Los Angeles. Do you Know anything about that move- 
ment ? 

Mr, PouLSON". I only know that what you say may be true, simply 
on the basis of the fact that I know that there were people who were 
discontent with the way the Communist Party was being run, but in 
general felt that there might be some other way of forwarding its 
objectives. I don't know at firsthand. Nobody has ever asked me 
to join such a group, maybe because I have made my disinterest very 
clear from the start. I don't know. 

I have no direct first-hand knowledge or even second-hand hearsay 
knowledge of the existence of any such group or any attempt to form 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been aware, since severing your connec- 
tion with the Communist Party, or prior to your leaving, of an effort 
to avoid the provisions of law relating to membership in a Communist 
Party group by withdrawing as organizational members but still being 
affiliated with the Communist Party in a way to carry out their Com- 
munist Party duties in every way except that of being members? 

Mr. PoTJLSON. Mr. Tavenner, you know that two horse race players 
can read the same form sheet and then decide to put their money on 
different horses. You can make two interpretations of the same 
thoughts. I know of instances where people who probably did not 
change their personal inner convictions — I want to be consistent — • 
Let's say I know of an instance where I, not having changed my 
inner personal convictions, nevertheless ceased to be a member of the 
Commmiist Party. I became a member later. This was when I went 
into the Armed Forces of the United States. 

Now, as far as I was concerned, this was a perfectly sincere and 
practical move. When you are fighting a war, you know, for your 
country, and you are a soldier in an army, you have one allegiance, 
that is, to the Army. You may have, you know, moral feelings about 
how to personally behave and so on, but you certainly — you can't take 
orders from two places. It is out of the question and 

Mr. Ta\tenxer. You thought the two things would be inconsistent ? 

Mr. PouLSON. I felt that at that time it might be open to misin- 
terpretation, at any rate. It might be thought by some people to be 
disloyal if I were a Communist, and I simply didn't want to get into 
that situation. I wanted to see that war won and I wanted to take a 
full part in it and I left the Communist Party. 

I think this is the kind of situation such as you are describing, and 
I think many people might feel that I did it for subterfuge, dishonest 
motives, and I couldn't prevent their feeling that way. 

Mr. Ta\tennee. Yes, but I had reference to those persons who with- 
drew as actual members of the Communist Party but who continued 
in their Communist Party work and support of the Communist Party. 

Mr. PouLSON. At this point, Mr. Tavenner, I want to be careful to 
be consistent in the position that I am taking here. 

Mr. Ta^'enner. Now, it isn't a question of being consistent ; it is a 
question of giving us facts. 

]\Ir. PouLSON. I don't want to talk about my associations with other 
individuals, and if I were to say that I have specific knowledge of some 
such person other than myself in such an act, this would be talking 


about my associations with other individuals, and I frankly am not at 
all clear as to what extent I can g-eneralize, without spoiling my con- 
sistency in this matter. 

Mr. TA^^ENNER. Well, that is a very vital question in this hearing. 
We are attempting here, among other things, to determine whether or 
not the definition of membership, as contained in the laws relating to 
subversion, should be tightened, whether or not the conditions set forth 
in Article 5 of the Communist Control Act of 1954 as to wliat the 
courts should consider on this question should be enlarged, 

Mr. PouLSON. I understand the purpose. 

Mr. Tavenker. So the question I am asking you is very vital to that 
issue, and we want to know how it is that persons who ai-e members of 
the Communist Party can withdraw membership and still cooperate, 
aid and support the organization in every way except that of being 
technical members. That is the question that I am asking. 

Mr, PouLSON, I recognize that the thing you are describing is per- 
fectly possible of being done. 

Mr, Moulder. Do you have any knowledge or infoimation about it, 
of it actually existing ? 

Mr. PouLSON. But even if I were talking about otlier pei'sons, I 
don't know, in all sincerity, how one could decide, how one could crawl 
inside somebody's mind and know whether they "were sincere or 

Mr. Taa^enner. You continually come back to that. I am not talk- 
ing about thoughts or beliefs. I said action and support, active sup- 
port, I am not talking about beliefs at all. 

INIr. PouLSON. Well, I am not trying to sidestep you at all, either. 

Mr. Tavenner. Just come right to the direct question of continu- 
ing to support the Communist Party in its activities. 

Mr. PouLSON. I would like to consult with my counsel for just a 
moment, if I may. 

I wanted to get my counsel's advice at this moment, because I made 
it clear at the outset that I am willing to talk about myself, and I am 
doing it and have done it, and I feel that this question involves the 
conduct of others, and that I had better decline to answer the question 
on the grounds that I laid out at the outset. 

jNIr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I have no recourse except to suggest 
you direct him to answer. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness will be directed to answer. I am not 
clear as to wdiat grounds you claimed as a reason for declining to 

Mr. Poulson. At the outset^ 

Mr. Moulder. Did you claim the provisions, invoking the first and 
fifth amendments of the Constitution ? 

Mr. PouLSOx, I think that I — with regard to answering questions 
about associations with other persons, I claim the protection of the 
first and the fifth amendments to the Constitution, From time to time 
questions of pertinency might arise, but I haven't made — that is a com- 
plicated thing, 

Mr, Jackson, You decline to answer this question on the grounds 
previously stated? 

Mr. PouLsoN. Yes. 

Mr. M(tiri,DER. The witness is directed (o answer. 


Mr. PoTiLsoisr. T must rospectfully inaintain, I decline to answer 
the quest ion. 

Mr. MouLDEK. The committee will recess for a period of 5 minutes. 

( Short recess taken. ) 

Mr. Moulder. Proceed. 

Mr. PouLSON. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Tavenner, the members of the 
press tell me that they understood me to say that I was in the Armed 
Forces for 2 days. 

Mr. Moulder. That you what ? 

Mr. PouLSON. That I was in the Armed Forces for 2 days. 

Mr. Tavenner. You said 2 years, 

Mr. PouLSON. I thought I said 2 years. 

Mr. Ta\'enner. You said 2 years. 

Mr. PouLSON. But I thought anybody can make a slip of tliis kind, 
and I thought I better 

Mr. Jackson, Anybody who can stay in the Armed Forces for only 
2 days is a genius. 

Mr. WiRiN, But I had told him the press is never wrong. 

Mr. Moulder. Proceed with the next question. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation i 

Mr. PouLSON. I am an unsuccessful writer and a fairly successful 
machinist, to earn money while I am trying to be a writer. 

Mr. Tavenner. ^Vhat has been the period of your membership in 
the Commmiist Party ? 

Mr. PouLSON. I initially joined the Commmiist Party back in the 
midthirties. It seems to me that it was approximately 1935, It is 
difficult to be sure. 

I remained in the Communist Party or in the Communist League 
or considered myself a full-fledged member of the Communist move- 
ment from then until the time I told you I left the party — that was 
January' 1957, with the exception of the time that I was in the Armed 
Forces, the Army. 

Mr. Jackson. In connection with that, during the time that you 
were in the armed services, the period of 2 years, did you continue in 
any way in your Communist Party activity ? 

Mr. PouLSON. The answer to that question would be ""No," unless 
you could construe trying to be a good soldier in a war that was sup- 
ported by the Comnumist Party an implementation of Communist 
Party — - 

Mr. Jackson. No. I had reference to any contact with any Com- 
munist meeting, Communist gi'oups, during the period of your 

Mr. PouLSON, Here I want to be very explicit, because I don't want 
to be in a position of perhaps telling an untruth. 

Mr, Jackson. I have no information. I don't mean to entrap you. 

Mr. PouLSON. I was informed at one time by an officer in the divi- 
sion to which I was attached overseas that it was their understanding 
that while I was on furlough after my basic training, prior to being- 
shipped overseas, that I attended a young Conununist meeting. At 
that time I honestly could not recall having done so. If I did, I am 
sure it was because people I was ac(|uainted with, friends of mine, 
were there, and I was liome on furlough, and it was a chance to see 


I^ didn't have any organizational significance, with the possible 
exception of that. The answer to your question is an unqualified 
"No."' I had no contacts or organizational relationship at any time 
during that period with other Communists or Communist groups or 
anything of the kind. 

Mr. Jacksox. Thanli you. 

Mr. Tavenner. Was that the general understanding among mem- 
bers of the Communist Party who went into the service, one of the 
armed services, that lie should during that period of time be considered 
as a non-member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. PouLSON. It was my understanding at the time that this was 
the normal and correct thing for any Communist to do. 

Mr. Tavexner. Did the Communist Party consider it as a militaiy 
furlough; had you heard it spoken of in that way? 

Mr. PoTJLSOJsr. I think the Communist Party — I never heard the 
phrase, although it may have been used ; I think the Communist Party 
felt that everything should be subordinated to seeing that the Avar 
was won, and that it would be foolish and unrealistic for Communists 
who went into the Army to try to function in any way which might 
distract from their purpose of being there, which was to, you know, 
carry on the fight. 

Mr. Tavenner. Of what unit of the Communist Party were you a 
member at the time you withdrew in 1957 ? 

Mr. PouLsox. At the time tliat I 

Mr. Ta\t3nner. Withdrew from the Communist Party. 

Mr. PouLSON. I was not a member of any club at that time. 

Mr. Tamsnner. Were you a member at large ? 

Mr. PouLSON. I suppose you would call me a member at large. 

Mr. Ta-vtsxner. How long had you been a member at large? 

INIr. PouLSON. I think it must have been about 2 years, the length 
of time that I was a reporter for the Daily People's World, and keep- 
ing all kinds of hours on that job. It wasn't practical to belong to 
a party club. 

Mr. Tavenner. Tell the committee what is meant by memberehip 
at large. 

Mr. PouLSON". In this instance, all that was — what was meant was 
that I was considered to be fulfilling any organizational responsibili- 
ties that I might have by the kind of job I was doing. 

Mr. Tavenner. You say you began your membership in the Com- 
munist Party in 1935. Wliere was that ? 

Mr. PouLSON. Cleveland, Ohio. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remain a member in Cleveland ? 

Mr. PoTjLSON. Well, it couldn't have been too long. I joined when 
I was working on the Cleveland Press, and at the time, if you will re- 
call, it was the time of the Seattle Post-Intelligencer and the Milwau- 
kee Journal strikes, which the Newspaper Guild was forming, and 
then already in September 1936 1 went abroad to study. 

Before that I spent, if I recall, I spent the summer on vacation. 
So that 

Mr. Tavenner. What was the name of the group or the name of the 
Communist Party cell to which you were assigned in Cleveland ? 

Mr. PouLsoN. Believe me, I haven't the faintest idea. This is hon- 
est. It is like another life, so far ago. 


JMr. Tavenner. Now, you say you were a member at large for a 
period of 2 years. "Wliat club or gi'oup of the Communist Party 
was it that you were a member of prior to your becoming a member 
at large ? 

Mr. PouLsoN. I was a member of a club or a group which centered 
generally in the Bay area, and I don't honestly remember whether it 
had a name. I am not trying 

Mr. Tavenner. During the period of 2 years when you were a 
member at large, who was tlie superior to wiiom you had to report as 
a member at large ? 

Mr. PouLSON. Of course, Mr. Tavenner, on this question I must de- 
cl ine to answer on the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I have to ask for direction. 

Mr. Moulder. The committee directs the witness to answer tlie 

Mr. PouLSON. Again, I respectfully decline to answer the question 
on the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Jackson. May I ask, Mr. Counsel, wdiat was the question ? 

Mr. Tavenner. The question was, the name of his superior during 
the period of time that he was a member at large. 

Mr. Jackson. The name of his superior in the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Tavenner. In the Communist Party. 

Mr. PoiTLSON. Perhaps it will clarify the record, I decline to an- 
swer on the grounds of the first and fifth amendments of the Consti- 
tution and possible pertinency of the question. 

Mr. Moulder. His immediate superior ? 

Mr. Ta\t:nner. His immediate superior. My question said, the 
person to whom he reported or was responsible to. 

]Mr. Wirin. Would you permit me just a moment, Mr. Chairman, to 
say this : That if a witness appears here and is willing to talk about 
liimself and give you extended information concerning himself, and 
then there are very refined and technical distinctions drawn as to when 
lie waives his privilege, that is why so many persons are required to 
take the absolute fifth and give no information at all. 

It seems to me the committee is confronted with a very serious choice 
as to whether it is going to be technical and insist upon a person nam- 
ing others, when many persons of conscience refuse to do that, or in- 
vite information and give a person reasonable freedom from going to 
jail in doing so. 

Mr. Jackson. May I make a comment : I think there is considerable 
validity in what counsel has to say. However, I think that it is per- 
fectly clear that the menace, if any, in a conspiracy is not the simple 
idea, but the people who implement the idea. The committee cannot 
leave the judgment to a witness, whether or not any given individual 
is or is not a conspirator, or whether he is or is not presently a member 
of the Communist Party. It is the people who take the idea and move 
forward with it who constitute the danger, rather than the simple 
idea itself, which, without people, would be useless and void. 

For that reason the committee has taken the position that while 
such information as is being presently given by the witness is valuable, 
growing as it does out of his own experience 

48192— 60— pt. 3- 


Mr. Moulder. And that the committee doesn't accept the proposi- 
tion that the witness has the discretion of deciding whether or not 

Mr. WiRix. I am not making that contention. 

Mr. Jacksox. Exactly, moral compunctions may be and are a very 
fine thing. 

Mr. WiRix. They are, no question about it. 

Mr. Jacksox. They are indeed, but tliey do not constitute, and as 
I think you will agi'ee, a legal ground for declining to answer a 

Mr. WiRix. They did in the Watkins case. 

Mr. Jacksox. For my part, Mr. Chairman, because we have reached 
the crux of this matter in the declination of the witness to answer, 
I would respectfully request that the witness again be directed to 
answer the question as to what individual in the Communist Party he 
reported his activities; his, sliall we say, immediate superior or 
reporting superior. 

Mr. Moulder. In accordance with the request of Mr. Jackson, the 
witness is directed by the committee to answer the question. 

Mr. PouLsox. I must again, Mr. Chairman, respectfully decline 
to answer the question, not only because I don't wish for moral reasons 
to be in the position of talking about others but because I feel that I 
require the protection of the first and the fifth amendments to the 
Constitution, and there may be some doubt in my mind as to the ques- 
tion of pertinency, as well. 

May I speak with him ? 

Mr. Moulder. Yes. 

Mr. PouLSOx. My counsel, after conferring with him, advises me 
that I ought to point out flatly that I feel that the question is not 
pertinent to the bona fide purposes of this investigation, in addition 
to the other statements made. 

Mr, Ta\^xxer. Have you read the opening statement that the 
chairman made at the beginning of this hearing, which includes the 
resolution ? 

Mr. PouLSOX. Yes, I have. 

Mr. Tavexxer. Of the committee. I think then it is not necessary 
for me to make any further explanation of the question of pertinency. 

Have you held any position of leadership in the Communist Party 
in Los Angeles during the past 5 years ? 

Mr. PouLSox. Answering the question in two parts, on technical 
positions of leadership, you know, where one nominally holds an 
office, I believe there was a time within that 5-year period you speak 
of, during the first of those 5 years, when I was a chairman of a Com- 
mmiist Party club. 

Mr. Tavexxer. What club was that? 

Mr. PouLSOX. It was the club to which I told you I belonged before 
1 became a member at large. 

]\Ir. Tavexxer. As to which you do not recall its name? 

Mr. PouLSOX. I honestly do not, sir. 

Mr. Tavexxer. Was it in a particular area, composed of members 
from a particular area ? 

Mr. PouLSON. It was composefl. of pfoplc who in ii-enoral lived in 
the Bay area. 

Mr. Tavenxer. AVhat part of the Hay area, was it Santa Monica, 
for instance ? 


Mr. PoiiLsox. When I say the Bay ai-ea, I iiichule in my mind Santa 
Monica, Venice, West Los Angeles, Mar Vista, Brentwood, even — 
yon know liow these lines of gerrymander — perhaps even parts of 
Culver City of Beverly Hills, 1 am not sure; that general area which 
some people refer to as the North Bay area. 

Mr. Tavenner. If you would identify the places where the meet- 
ings were held, that may be of some assistance to us in understanding 
what group of the Communist Party it was that you were connected 

Mr. PouLSox. I think meetings were generally held in Venice or 
Santa Monica. I think there may also have been 

Mr. Tavenner. How long were you chairman of that group? 

Mr. PouLSON. I would have to do some real scratching to give you 
an accurate answer, but I would estimate, offhand, that I was chair- 
man of that group for perhaps a half a year, maybe even a year, some 
kind of period in that. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you had any other position of leadership in 
the Communist Party ? 

Mr. PouLSON. I have never held, to the best of my knowledge, any 
other nominal position of any kind in the Communist Party. 

Mr. Tavenner. During the last two years of your membership as 
a member at large, did I understand you to say you had some con- 
nection with the Daily People's World? 

Mr. PouLsoN. I was a reporter. 

Mr. Ta^t;nner. A reporter. 

Mr. PouLSON. For the Los Angeles Bureau of the Daily People's 
World, 1955, 1956. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you write a column for the paper ? 

Mr. PouLSON. There was a period of time during which, among 
other things, I wrote a column. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did your going with that paper result from any 
conference that you had with Communist Party leaders in this area ? 

Mr. PouLSON. Yes, it did. 

Mr. Tavenner. Then the Communist Party organization desired 
you to take this position with the paper? 

Mr. PouLSON. That was my understanding. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you find other persons engaged in staff work 
with that paper wlio were known to you to be members of the Com- 
munist Party ? 

Mr. PouLSON. That question, sir, I must decline to answer on the 
grounds I have already indicated, where questions of association Avith 
others are concerned. 

Mr. Tavenner. May I have a direction? 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer. 

Mr. PouLSON. I must again respectfully decline to answer the 
question on the grounds indicated, Mr. Chairman, 

Mr. Ta\t:nner. Was the Daily People's World the official organ 
of the Communist Party in this area ? 

Mr. PouLSON. To the best of my knowledge and belief, it was not. 
Many people, however, thought that it was, both those people in the 
Commmiist Party and people outside the Communist Party. 

Mr. Tavenner, We have received a great deal of evidence indicating 
that it was understood in the Communist Party that each member 


engage in some particular work in a mass organization. That was 
expected of him as a member of the Conmiunist Party. 

Did that principle have anything to do with your taking this 
position with the Daily People's World ? 

Mr. PouLsoN. You mean did the Communist Party regard the Daily 
People's World as a kind of mass organization participation which 
would fulfill the desire for a mass activity for a Communist? 

Mr. Ta\t:nner. Not quite. I refer to the fact that that was the 
practice of the Communist Party, as we understand, to have its mem- 
bers to go out into mass organizations and perform services for the 
Communist Party there. 

Now, my question was whether or not, in going into the work of the 
Daily People's World, you considered you were performing that duty 
as a member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. PouLSON. Primarily, it never occurred to me to think of that as 
a mass activity. 

Mr. Ta-\tenner. It is a little different. 

Mr. PoFLsoN. I felt that in becoming a reporter for the Daily 
People's World I was fulfilling a function, including Communists or 
non-Communists who might read it, in trying to report what was 
going on and give the readers an accurate picture of it. 

Mr. Tavenner. AVlien you resigned from the Communist Party, 
did you resign from the Daily People's World ? 

Mr. PouLSON. No, I had already left the Daily People's World 
shortly before resigning from the Communist Party. 

Mr. Tavenner. Would you say that the two acts were virtually 

Mr. PouLSON. At the time that I left the staff of the Daily People's 
World, the paper was in financial difficulties. It was necessary to cur- 
tail stock. There was a question inevitably arising as to who should 

I indicated that I would be willing to go, and this was accepted as 
the basis for a decision. 

Mr. Tavenner. You say you did not consider the Daily People's 
World as a mass organization, in which I think your position is cor- 
rect. But there were mass organizations in which you participated 
as a result of what you considered to be your duty as a member of 
the Communist Party, were there not ? 

Mr. PouLSON. Maybe I am in a little different position from some 
people, in that although during my time as a Commmiist I frequently 
was not in a position to shout from the housetops that I was a Com- 
munist, nevertheless, I usually seemed to be engaged in some kind of 
activity which led almost everybody to assume that I was, and this 
put very severe limitations on my ability to join any kind of organiza- 
tion. It is true 

Mr. Tavenner. You had already been disclosed, so to speak? 

Mr. PotjIjSOn. Or I was self-exposed. You know, maybe I had a 
personal lient in tliat direction, anyway, because it is rough to believe 
in something and be able to say what you believe in, and hear people 
talk about it and not be able to talk back, and I was pretty constantly 
letting my views be heard and know^n. 

I am not — I have been a member at a couple of occasions of what 1 
would call general mass organizations, but it just happened that 1 


got into them through some other facet of my life, some problem, and 
not as a result of being sent there or urged there by the Conmiunist 

Mr. Tavenner. But if you had not already gotten into those mass 
organizations because of the special interest that you referred to, you 
probably Avould have been sent there anyway, wouldn't you? 

Mr. PouLSON. That is speculation, Mr. Tavenner. I am not sure. 

Mr. Ta\^nner. That was the practice in the Communist Party, 
\vasn't it, to send members to the place where they were best fitted? 

Mr. PouLSON. When I was a Communist, I used to constantly urge 
m,y fellow Communists to go out and join what we called mass 
organizations, so that they, in the first place, could know what the 
people in the organizations were like and, secondly, could, I hoped, 
Avin the respect of their neighbors and friends in the work of these 

Mr. Tavenner. And eventually get them into the Coiinnunist 
Party ? 

Mr. PouLSON. Yes; I hoped very much that out of t!ie contacts 
that were established in that way som^e of my fellow members would 
find others who agreed with them and would ultimately join the 
Connnunist Party, there is no question about it. 

Mr. Ta\t:nner. And that was the common practice and rule with- 
in the Conmiunist Party, not just with you individually, but with 
the party as a whole ? 

Mr. PouLSON. It was my understanding that it was the common 
practice and rule. 

Mr. Ta\^nner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Moulder. Mr. Jackson ? 

Mr. Jackson. I have just one question. I have found the testi- 
mony extremely interesting and I think in some respects helpful. 

The question I would put to the witness, if he cares to answer it, 
there are a number of bewildered and somewhat befuddled, I think — 
young liberals in the country today. I know througli my contacts 
with many of them, in talking at universities and so forth, that they 
are bewildered. I should like to have some comment from you, grow- 
ing out of your own personal experience in the Communist Party 
over a period of years as to whether or not the Communist Party is 
the instrument which is going to serve to bring order into their dis- 
ordered minds or whether or not they might better take their chance 
with American institutions, as imperfect as they may appear to be 
in the present state of world affairs. 

Mr. PouLSON. Well, Mr. Jackson, although I am a willing witness, 
I am unwilling to remain silent to any question which I feel I can 
answer, once I have been brought here. 

Of course, I think it is pretty clear— I hope it is clear from the kind 
of testimony I have given — that I would above all urge these people 
not to make up their mind on the basis of fear of consequences, but on 
the basis of conviction, do the things they felt it was right to do, even 
though it might cost them something. Everything costs something. 

it happens to be my personal opinion — and I am only one person ; 
I am not speaking from high tribunal — it is just my personal opinion 
that, as I have stated before, that those people wiio want to see this 


country become ever freer and stronger and greater and continue to 
live in a world of peace — and I think of my son and my daughter — 
will not find the most effective way of accomplishing this by associ- 
ating themselves with relatively ineffective and unrealistic groups, 
such as I consider the Communist Party of the United States today 
to be. 

Mr. Jackson. Thank you. 

Mr. Moulder. Thank you very much. The witness is excused. 

How many more witnesses do we have this afternoon ? 

Mr. Tavenner. I believe five. 

Mr. WnuN. I have a couple that will be brief. 

Mr. Moulder. The committee will recess until 1 :30 p.m. 

(Whereupon, at 12 noon, Thursday, October 22, 1951), the subcom- 
mittee recessed to reconvene at 1 :30 p.m. of the same day.) 


Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order. 

Call the first witness, Mr. Tavemier. 

Mr. Tavexxer. Mr. James McGowan, will you come forward, 
please, sir? 

Mr. Moulder. You are Mr. James McGowan ? 

Mr. McGowAX. That's right. 

Mr. ]Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are 
about to give before this committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. McGowan. I do. 


jNIr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please, sir ? 

i\Ir. McGowan. James George McGowan. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel accompanying tlie witness please 
identify himself for the record ? 

Mr. Margolis. Ben Margolis. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born ? 

Mr. McGowan. In New York City, July 6, 1908. 

Mr. Ta\'enner. Where do you now reside ? 

Mr. McGowAN. Elsinore, Calif. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in the State of California ? 

Mr. McGowan. Koughly, since 1930 or 1931. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you give the committee, please, briefly your 
educational backgromid ? 

Mr. McGowan. I graduated f I'om high school in New York City. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation '? 

Mr. McGowan. Self-em]:)loyed television repairman. 

]\Ir. TA^•ENNER. Mr. jNIcGowan, we have learned through the hear- 
ings we have conducted in Los Angeles that there was a rejuvenation 
of the Communist Party after the decision in the Yates case, as a re- 
sult of which the Commmiist Party for the State of California was 
divided into a Northern and Southern District . 


Tlie Soutliern District lias, we understand, 28 different unitvS com- 
|)risino: that disti-ict. Are you at this time a member of any one of 

Mr. McGowAN. I will not answer the question. 1 consider that it 
is an invasion of my rights. The committee which is — you claim to 
set up to investioate pertinent material — has no reason to infjuire into 
my associations or my beliefs. I will not answer the question. 

Mr. Tavenner. May I have a direction ? 

Mr. ]\IouLDER. The witness is directed to answer the question. Your 
response is not satisfactory. 

]Mr. McGowAN. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the rights 
protecting my rights of the first amendment of the United States and 
the fifth amendment to the United States Constitution. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you attended any of the district meetings of 
the Communist Party for the Southern District of California since 

Mr. McGowAN. This question and the question before, and I assume 
questions foUowmg I consider an invasion of my right of association, 
and I will not answer such questions. I will not answer on the grounds 
that I gave to the previous question. 

]Mr. Tavenner. Are you familiar with the report of Dorothy Healey 
relating to the program for work among youth in this area? 

Mr. McGowAN. This question is the same as the two before it. I 
will not answer questions that tend to probe into my tliinking, my 
association and my activities. This is an invasion of my right guar- 
anteed by the first amendment, and I will not answer on the gromid 
of the first amendment and the fifth amendment, because these mat- 
ters are not within the purview of this committee. 

Mr. Tavenner. I am not asking you any question regarding your 
beliefs or your opinions, but I am as to your activities. 

Now, haven't you been active in the youth work of the Communist 
Party for a number of years ? 

Mr. McGowAN. This question, like the others, you are inquiring in 
an area which you are not entitled to inquire, and I'll not answer on 
the grounds already given. 

^ir. Tavenner, I hand you a theimofax copy of a page taken from 
Xew Frontiers, and down in the right-hand coi-ner there is a reference 
to you as an associate editor of New Frontiers. 

Will you examine it, please, and state wliether you were an asso- 
ciate editor of that magazine ? 

Mr. McGowAN. This question, like the ones before, attempts to pry 
into my beliefs, my associations, and to this question I will also add 
the right of freedom of press. 

Mr. Tavenner. I will read from the article : 

New Frontiers is tlie official yearbook of the Young Commnuist League of 
California, issued on the occasion of the First Annual State Convention of the 
Young Communist League, held, at Los Angeles on November .5, 6, and 7, 1937 ; 
editor, G. P. Hitchcock ; business manager. Chai'les Sanford ; associates, Ed 
Alexander, Jim McGowan. 

I desire to offer the document in evidence, ask that it be marked 
"McGowan Exhibit 1." 

Mr. Moulder. The document referred to by counsel Avill be 
admitted into evidence. 


(Docimient marked '"McGowan Exhibit No. 1" and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Taaexner. Were j^ou the executive secretary for the Com- 
munist Party of Fresno, Tulare, and Kings Counties in California in 

Mr. McGowAx. You are asking questions aljout association. You 
ask questions about association. They involve the matter of free 
speech, and since I do not consider that you have the right to inquire 
into my ideas and my associations, I'll not answer that question on 
the grounds given. 

Mr. Tavenxer. The same grounds, first and fifth amendments? 

Mr. McGowAN. Yes. 

i\Ir. Tavenxer. In 1943 were you a member of the Plarbor Section 
of tlie Communist Party of California ? 

Mr. McGowAN. Same kind of question. Do you want me to repeat 
the answer ? 

Mr. Ta\t]nner. No, if you say the same. 

Mr. McGowan". Same grounds. 

Mr. Tavex^ner. In 1947 were you the literature director of tlie 
Venice Club, 16th Congressional District, Los Angeles, (Communist 

Mr. McGowAX. The same question, the same answer. 

^Ir. Ta^t^^tner. What position do you hold in the Communist 
Party now? 

Mr. McGowAx. Same question, kind of question, the same answer. 

Mr. Ta-^texx'er. I believe you said your present residence was 
Elsinore ? 

^Ir. McGowAx. That's right. 

Mr. Tavenxer. Are you at this time a member of the Communist 
Party group at Elsinore ? 

Mr. IMcGow^AN. Now, continuing to ask questions of this kind 
strengthens in me the conviction that the purposes of the investigation 
are quite different from the purposes that you profess. 

I believe that you would intend to use this committee to try to intimi- 
date me, to try to intimidate other people, to try to proscribe ideas, and 
I'll not lend myself to this. 

You may think that reading this resolution as to the purposes and 
the pertinence of your investigation is the final answer. I don't tliink 
it is. 

I think more and more greater numbers of people are becoming dis- 
satisfied with this kind of activity, resisting and investigating. 

Mr. Tavenx'er. What kind of investigations? 

Mr. ]McG(nvAN. Into those and 

Mr. TA^^:x"XE^v. You weren't referring to Communist Party activ- 

Mr. McGowAX^. No, the activities of your committee. 

IVIr. Jacksox". I would suggest that the witness is being given every 
op])ortunity to express himself, but that his answer is not in any way 
responsive to the question asked by counsel, and I think it is time to 
get an answer from the witness, as to whether he pro])oses to answer tin- 
question or not, 

Mr. McGowAN. It is obvious that I will not answer questions dealing 
with association, with ideas. 


Mr. Jackson. This is obvious, we understand this. Do you decline 

to answer? 

JNIr. JNIcGowAX. Oli, yes. 

Mr. Jackson. On the first and fifth amendments? 

Mr. JNIcGowAN. Yes,tliat's riglit. 

Mr. Tavenner. No further questions. 

Mr. Moulder. I can't understand. You make a lon^r statement of 
reasoninc;, but then hiter you add the first and fiftli amendments. 

]Mr. McGowAN. One can have several reasons for not answering 
questions of this kind. I can state a number of reasons. 

]\Ir, Jackson. You have already stated a number of reasons. You 
have stated the most pertinent one in exercising your constitutional 

I ask the witness be excused. 

Mr. Moulder. The wntness is excused. 

Mr. Ta\^nner. Mr. William Wallace Norton, Jr. 

INIr. Moulder. Do you solemnly SAvear that the testimony you are 
about to give before this subcommittee shall be the truth, the whole 
truth, and notliing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Norton. I do. 



Mr. Tavenner. TNHiat is your name, please, sir i 

Mr. Norton. My name is William Wallace Norton. 

I would like to know what the charges are against me. 

Mr. Tavenner. There are no charges against you. 

ISIr. Norton. Well, sir — — 

Mr. Taatsnner. You have been subpenaed here because the com- 
mittee was informed that you are in possession of some facts which it 
desires to hear. 

Mr. Norton. In other words, I am not charged with a crime or you 
liave not presumed that I am guilty of anything; is that true? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, you are not chai'ged with any ci'ime. 

Mr. Norton. And you pi-esume I am innocent ? 

]Mr. TavennePi. Innocent of what? 

Mr. Norton. Well, whatever this entire — circus is about. 

Mr. WiRiN. JNIay we have order ? 

Mr. Jackson. There is no presumption — excuse me for a moment, 
Mr. Wirin — I don't know how long you have contemplated this 
opening attack. There is no presumption on my part of anything — 
just a moment 

Mr. Norton. Considerable pressure of something. 

Mr. Jackson. Just a minute, please. There is no presumption on 
my ]3art: certaiidy, I know of no charges against you. 

Mr. Norton. I am happy to hear that. 

]Mr. Jackson. I have not conferred with the staff as to 3'our appear- 
ance or as to any allegation that might possibly have been made under 
oath by others. You are starting from scratch, INIr. Witness, and 
your conduct on the stand will demonstrate to what extent you your- 
self may feel that some charges are properly laid against you. 

So far as I am concerned, there are no charges pending. 

48192— GO — pt. 3 5 


Mr Norton. Thank you very much, sir. I am happy to have the 
Cono-ress of the United States make an announcement of my nmocence. 

]Mr. Jackson. Just a moment. We find you neither guilty nor inno- 
cent of anvthing. ^ , „^.„ - ,. ^ 

Now let's go on from there, Mr. Counsel. Will you ask questions 
which may tend to clarify this matter, and let whatever assumptions 
may be drawn be drawn. I have drawn none to this time. 

Mr WiRiN. ]Mr. Chairman, would you instruct persons not to en- 
o-ao-e in laughter, whether it comes from counsel table or anywhere 


Mr Moulder. Yes. We have made that announcement before. 
Will those in the hearing room conduct themselves in a dignified way 
so as not to make audible sounds or any interference by laughter or 
remarks concerning the witness or the hearing ? 

:Mr. Tavenner. ^Y[\en and where were you born ? 

Mr. Norton. Pardon? 

J^Ir T WENNER. When and where were you born i 

Mr Norton. May I tell Mr. Moulder, as the chairman of the com- 
mittee, that this is very serious business, and I intend no laughter and 
I didn't have anv such'motives in view. I am an ordinary sort ot man, 
and I am attempting as best I can to clear this thing tlirough and state 
my purpose, and I certainly would agree that laughter has nothing 
to do with this. 

Mr. Moulder. All right. Let us proceed. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now, will you answer the question, please, sir? 
Wlien anci where were you born ? , ^r ^ - 

Mr. Norton. I was born in Ogden, Utah, tlie Mormon country, m 


Mr. Ta%^nner. It is noticed that you are accompanied by counsel. 

Mr WiRiN. I don't want to go ignored completely. 

Mr. Tamsnner. I have never been guilty of ignoring you. 

Mr. WiRiN. Completely, I said. 

Mr. Tavenner. No, not to any extent. 

Mr. IMouLDER. Counsel will identify himself. 

I^Ir. WiRiN. A. L. Wirin, Los Angeles. 

Mr. Tavenner. A\niere do you reside? ^ , , ^ , 

Mr Norton. I reside in Encino here m Los Angeles County. 

Mr! TA^^2NNER. How long have you been a resident here m t.ali- 

'^Mr^ Norton. Since 1935, when my parents came here from Utah. 

Mr Wirin. May I talk to the witness ? 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation? •,,_ fi,,f 

Mr. Norton. Sir, I have prepared a report to the committee that 
lists mv occupation and other pertinent facts surrounding it, and 1 
would like to ask permission to submit this for the record of the com- 
mittee althou<rh Mr. Wheeler and the investigators of the committee 
iJIiow ;Cri^ and I would like to submit this to the committee 

as a record of where I work. . i • -j. ut„ 

Mr Wirin May I iust say to the committee that making it public 
might injure him in his employment. You have said ^?^"^.;;;;^\^^f "J 
you have no such purpose, and you may have his information, but we 
Would appreciate it if you do not make it public at this time. 


Mr. Moulder. May I say to you, Mr. Norton, that I ]iave con- 
ferred with my colleague, Mr. Jackson. It is not the purpose or intent 
of the committee to cause any unfair publicity to yourself or is it our 
intention to do anything to affect your employment. These hearings 
are conducted in accordance with and at the direction of the Congress 
of the United States. The hearings are public, and what may result 
from your testimony in the form of publicity can't be controlled by 
the committee. We have no authority to do that. 

Mr. WiRiN. Would you give me a word ? 

Mr. Jackson. May I ask a question : As I look at this, the material 
that has been sent to the desk, 1 see only one matter which is in any 
way related to any reasonable fear of reprisal, and that is the one 
having to do with your employment. 

Mr. Norton. I included these other factors as they may be of interest 
to you, as further points of my background. 

Mr. Jackson. Why should your Army service or being a combat 
infantryman in France, Germany and Austria be in any way privileged 
matter ? 

Mr. Norton. I don't ask for that. 

Mr. Jackson. Are there some of these he is asking and some of these 
he is not asking ? 

Mr. WiRiN. Yes. The only matter which he requests not be made 
public at this time is the matter of the name of his employer. Every- 
thing else — incidentally, I haven't seen the list, but this is my under- 
standing — everything else he will testify to publicly, and you have on 
past occasions held executive sessions, and in other instances not dis- 
closed information which you felt was harmful to a person. That one, 
single bit of information may affect him adversely in his employment. 
In litigation which we have had the conmiittee has said it does not 

Mr. Moulder. You are proceeding along the lines or with the as- 
sumption that your testimony is going to have an unfavorable public 
reaction to yourself. Now, you can avoid that, of course, by being 
a loyal, patriotic American citizen and testifying in such a way that 
it will not be unfavorable to you. Your appearance before this com- 
mittee in itself certainly is not any reflection upon you. We are asking 
you for information, and by acceding to your request here would be 
giving you a different consideration than has been accorded to any 
other witness that has ever appeared before this committee. The 
request is overruled. 

Mr. Tavenner, proceed with your question. 

Mr. WiRiN. May I look at this paper first? Mr. Moulder, no wit- 
ness that I represented at these hearings has been asked as to his em- 
ployment. A number of witnesses whom I represented have not been 
asked, so it is not true that every witness who has appeared has been 
aslced with respect to his employment. 

Mr. Tavenner. I didn't ask him about his employment. I asked 
him about his occupation. 

Mr. WiRiN. Inevitably 

"Sir. Tavenner. Every witness has been asked that question, as far 
as I know, for ten years. 

Mr. ISIouLDER. Let us proceed in an orderly way. The question is 


Mr. Tan-enxer. The question is, What is your occupation ? 
INIr. WiRiN. May I confer with him for a moment? 
Mr. ^yiouLDER. Yes. The witness is directed to answer the question. 
Iklr. Tavenner. I seldom ask for addresses and employers' names, 
very seldom. 

Mr. Moulder. Let us proceed. Confer with your client. 

Mr. NoRTOX. I am a public employee in Los Angeles County. 

Mr. WiRiN. That is his occupation. 

Mr. Tavenner. What character of work do you do ? 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I would respectfully suggest that 


Mv Moulder. That is a very evasive response to the question. 

Mr. Jackson. I don't think,' Mr. Chairman, that we can profitably 
pursue this matter further, except I would make an addendum that 
the record, as handed in by counsel, should appear in the full record 
of the hearings. I don't "know that it will serve any purpose, Mr. 
Chairman, at this time by disclosing it, but I do think that if the com- 
mittee accedes to his request, the information should become part of 
the public record. 

:Mr. WiRiN. I don't object to that, and this is agreeable. 

Mr. Jackson. I so request, Mr. Chairman, in the interest of time. 

Mr. WiRiN. I appreciate Mr. Jackson's position. 

Mr. Jackson. In the interest of time, I request that this informa- 
tion be incorporated as a part of the public record. I think, for the 
purpose of what we are trying to determine at the moment, that this 
is not a matter of transcendental importance. 

Mr. Tavenner. I withdraw the question. 

Mr. WiRiN. Thank you. 

jSIr. Jackson. May I ask consent, ]\Ir. Chairman, that this material 
be inserted in the transcript of the record at this point. 

Mr. INIouLDER. It is so ordered. 

(The document above referred to is as follows :) 

William Wallace Norton, Jr., 16756 Moorpark, Enoino, Calif. Born September 
24 1925, Ogden, Utah. Employed as State park ranger by State of California. 
Presently assigned Los Encinos State Historical Monument, same address as 
above Army Service No. 39716586. Combat infantryman in France, Germany, 
and Austria during World War II. Educated at public schools in Los Angeles 
since 1935. Graduated El Monte High School, attended Redlands University 
but did not graduate. 

Mr. Moulder. That is a very unusual proceeding. Even in court 
proceedings it is unusual to read into the record 

Mr. Wirin. There are exceptions to any rule, and it is nice for you 
to make an exception. 

Mr. Jackson. If I felt we were going to get any appreciable 
amount of information from the witness, I might take a different 
position. I don't at the moment. 

Mr. Wirin. I think you ought to treat him tlie same way, if he 
has certain rights the Constitution gives him, whether he does or does 
not assert those riglits. But let's argue that somewhere else. 

Mr. Moulder. Let's see how he answers the rest of these questions 
and reserve our decision on that until then. 

Mr. Tavenner. I understood you to say you were in the Armed 
Forces of the United States? 


Mr. NoKTON. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. During what period of time ? 

Mr. Norton. World War II. 

Mr. Tavenner. Over what period ? 

Mr. Norton. This was from 1943 to 1945. I was in Company A of 
tlie Fifth Infantry, and we fought in France, Germany and Austria. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your edu- 
cational training has been ? 

Mr. Norton. The public schools in Utah and here in Los Angeles, 
high school here, and I attended the University of Redlands for a 
short period of time, and I have availed myself of the public libraries. 

Mv. Tavenner. What college was that, or university 'i 

Mr. Norton. Redlands. 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you complete your work there? 

Mr. Norton. I didn't complete. 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you stop ? 

Mr. Norton. This was in 194G. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Norton, we have heard that there are 28 differ- 
ent sections of the Communist Party for the Southern District of 
California under a revised plan, organizational plan of the Commu- 
nist Part3^ Are you at this time a member of any one of these units 
of the Communist Party ? 

jNlr. Norton. May I ask if this is a crime, and if it is I would like to 
request a trial by judge and a jury, rather than a political hearing? 

Sir. TA^"ENNER. I am certain your counsel has advised you that it is 
no crime. 

Mr. WiRiN. I am not so sure. I am glad to have you say it, though. 

Mr. Tavenner. It is not a crime. Mere membership is not a crime. 
The courts have so held. 

Mr. Norton. Well, thank you, sir. I am happy to have this kind 
of information. f 

Mr. Tavenner. All right, now, will you answer the question, then ? 

Mr. Norton. I am going to respectfully decline to answer and de- 
cline to really be cooperative along those lines, and primarily because 
I am a Den.ocrat, and my fellow Democrat, President Truman, came 
out here to U.C.L.A. some time ago, and, as Mr. Moulder, a fellow 
Missourian and Democrat certainly well knows. President Truman 
spoke very sharply and very strongly, so there could be no mistake, 
against the course of action that this committee has taken, and there- 
fore I agree with President Truman. I don't think that good pur- 
poses are being carried out here. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you decline to answer the question, though, your 
agreement notwithstanding ? Do you decline to answer the question ? 

Mr. Norton. Yes. 

Mr. Jackson. On the grounds previously stated ? 

Mr. Norton, And also on the grounds of the United States Con- 

Mr. Tavenner. What provision of the Constitution ? 

Mr. Norton. Well, sir, I am not a law^yer. I am an ordinary man. 
I say on the basis of the United States Constitution, as I understand 
it. This includes all of the Constitution. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you relying on the provision of the fifth amend- 
ment which exempts you from testifying regarding anything that may 
tend to incriminate you ? 


Mr. Norton. I am rel3^ing on the entire United States Constitution, 
and I am not going to cut it into bits and pieces and specify this 
portion and that portion, because I feel that this is a fairly Ameri- 
can and fairly honest and correct thing to do. Mr. Moulder used the 

Mr. Tavenner. jNIr. Chairman, in view of the witness' answer, I 
ask that you direct him to answer. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to ansAver. 

Mr. Tavenner. I don't think you can pussyfoot with the Constitu- 
tion in that manner. 

Mr. WiRiN. I don't think the witness is pussyfooting. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Wirin, please. 

Mr. Wirin. He makes — all right, all right, I guess I don't have the 
same rights as he, of course. 

Mr. Norton. Sir, this is one of the things that I can't help feeling. 
This is not a court of law, and my attorney can't speak. Now, surely 
this means something. That is why, if I am guilty of a crime, I would 
like to be in a court of law where evidence is presented, and a jury 
and a judge hears it, but in direct reply to Mr. Moulder, I decline to 
answer on the grounds of the United States Constitution and on the 
obligations and protections that are afforded to me as a citizen therein. 

Mr. Wirin. I siibmit this is invoking every privilege, including 

Mr. Moulder. As I understand, you are invoking and claim the pro- 
tection of all the provisions of the Constitution without specifying any 
particular provision of it ? 

Mr. Wirin. And all the privileges, too. 

Mr. Norton. All of the protections and the privileges and the ob- 
ligations of the United States Constitution. 

Mr. Wirin. There is something new all the time. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I think perhaps we have allowed the 
distinguished counsel representing the present witness as much lati- 
tude as we have allowed any counsel ever appearing before this com- 
mittee. I say this with no animosity whatever. But I am sure that 
the gentleman has a full knowledge of the mles of procedure of the 
committee, wliich confines counsel to advising his client and advising 
him only, not to engage in debate or suggestions or asides over and 
above and beyond that function of advice. 

I would certainly hope that counsel would abide by the rules of the 
committee. I think the committee has treated him and his clients 
with courtesy and consideration. Perhaps he might not agree. But 
I Avould certainly hope that counsel for the American Civil Liberties 
Union would confine himself to advice to his client. 

Mr. Moulder. That is correct, Mr. Wirin, and may I say, too, that 
we are trying to conduct hearings in a very dignified, orderly man- 
ner. However, in view of your statement and statements made by 
counsel, I am inclined to believe that you are using a very clever tech- 
nique to embarrass, ridicule and to degrade this committee; and in 
response to your question or statement a wdiile ago about former 
President Truman, I want to say that he did criticize the committee, 
but was referring to the conduct of it many years ago, when it prob- 
ably was justly subject to some criticism. ]3ut he had no reference 
whatsoever to the present membership or the manner in which the 


committee hearings are now being conducted. I made this very clear 
upon the floor of the House. 

I also want to say tliis to you, you also said tliat you were a Demo- 
crat. Now, if you arc a Democrat you sliould have no liesitancy in 
denying your affiliation or connection with the Communist Party, if 
any you have. 

Proceed, Mr. Tavenner. 

Mr. WiRiN. May I speak to my client, please, a moment ? 

Mr. Moulder. I want to add this : There are many members of the 
Communist Party who have claimed and actually registered as Re- 
publicans and also as Democrats in order to purposely embarrass 
both major political parties. 

Proceed with your question. 

Mr. NoRTOX. Sir, may I say a short thing in relation to President 
Truman ? 

Mr. INIouLDER. No. We don't wish to carry on any continual argu- 
ment liere. 

Mr. Norton. It is not argument. 

INIr. IMouLDER. We are seeking information which we think you can 
give to us if you will. 

Mr. Norton. I just want to say 

Mr. ]MouT.DER. A^^iat is the question ? 

Mr. Norton. Counsel was not aware of this, and it docs not repre- 
sent his view. That's all I wish to say. 

Mr. WiRTN. I knew nothing about it. 

Mr, Norton. He knew nothing about it. 

Mr. Moulder. Proceed. 

Mr. Tavenner. INIr. Norton, we understand that the Venice Club 
of tlie Connnunist Party is within one of these areas whicli I spoke of, 
the Western Section of the Communist Party. Were you transferred 
to that club, the A^enice Club, in 1954 as a member of that club ? 

Mr. Norton. Sir, I read very carefully the statement of the com- 
mittee, and I would like to make this offer, that I would be very happy 
to write a 20,000 word research paper. 

INIr. TA^^NNER. You can answer it in just three words. We don't 
need 20,000 to get that answer. 

Mr. Norton. Well, in that case, if I can't offer such a full explana- 
tion of what my opinions or views or knowledge may be of the sub- 
ject matter contained here, if I can't offer that to the committee so 
they may publish it in the Congressional Record, if they like, or what- 
ever, then on the basis of the procedure and the fact that this is not a 
courtroom, I choose to continue to say that I decline to cooperate or 
to answer, and I do this on the basis of the Constitution. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr, Chairman, I will make a proposal to the wit- 
ness. He says if he can have 20,000 words in which to explain his 
answer, after he gives it, he might give it. I suggest tliat, although 
time is short, I am willing, if he will answer the question "Yes" or 
"No" to listen to 20,000 words in explanation of an unequivocal answer 
to the pending question. 

Mr. Norton. I am sorry. I didn't make it clear. I apologize. I 
wanted to do a research paper and write on this subject. I would 
research the matter as efficiently as I would be capable of and write 
20,000 words on tlie history of i-adicalism in the United States and in 
Los Angeles County. 


Mr. Jackson. This Avas not the question. You were asked whether 
you were a member of the Venice Club. This is not a matter of the 
history of anything. Were you or were you not a member of the 
Venice Chib of the Western Section of the Communist Party in 
Southern California? 

Mr. NoRTox. Then on the basis of the purposes and activities of the 
committee, in contrast to the United States Constitution, I claim all 
of the privileges and the obligations contained therein and respectfully 
decline to answer. 

Mr. Jacksox. Very well. 

Mr. Ta\t.xner. Including the provisions of the fifth amendment, 
in regard to immunity, your privilege not to testify to any matter 
which may tend to incriminate you ? 

Mr. Norton. Sir, I haven't had your many years of legal experi- 
ence, and I am not a Philadelphia lawyer, but I don't intend to cut 
the Constitution into bits and pieces. 1 am satisfied with the courts 
and with American justice, to say that I make this statement respect- 
fully on the basis of the entire United States Constitution, and as an 
ordinary citizen I have confidence that the courts and the justice of this 
country will recognize that as a clear and sensible thing. 

Mr. Ta^t:nner. The courts have been perfectly plain in the matter 
that the witness must be just as plain in invoking the fifth amendment 
as the committee must be in directing him as to the subject matter of 
his inquir}''. But I think tlie witness fully understands it. I am will- 
ing to let it go at that. 

Mr. Norton. I certainly don't exclude any of the amendments, any 
of the words, any of the privileges or protections or obligations con- 
tained in the supreme law of the land, the Constitution. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

ISIr. Moulder. Mr. Jackson, do you have any questions ? 

Mr. Jackson. No, I have no questions. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused. 

]\Ir. Norton. Thank you for your kind and cooperative attitude. It 
wasn't nearly as bad as I had feared. 

Mr. Jackson. That is frequently the case. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Mark Sink. Will you come forward, please? 

Mrs. Rosenberg. At this time may I make a request of the same na- 
ture that I made yesterday, and that is to the effect that these hear- 
ings be held in executive session, and that this witness not be sub- 
jected to a public hearing, and further that no photographs be taken 
of this witness during his testimony. 

Mr. INIouLDER. The second request will be granted. Photographers 
will not be peiTnitted to take pictures during the course of the witness' 
testimony. The first request is denied. 

Mrs. Rosenberg. Before there is a ruling on the first one, may I call 
to the attention of the Chair that with regard to the executive sessions 
it is my understanding that there will be such sessions tomorrow, and 
that, as a matter of fact, this Avitness ought to be entitled, upon a re- 
quest, to have that courtesy and that right extended to him, and we 
press that, Mr. Chairman, that request at this time. 

Mr. Moulder. That is for the committee to decide, and we have al- 
ready made our decision. 


Do you solemnly swear that the testiniouy you are about to give be- 
fore this subcommittee shall be the truth, tlie whole truth, and nothing 
but tlie truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. SixK. I do. 



Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name, please, Mr. Sink ? 

Mr. Sink. ]\Iark Eugene Sink. 

Mr. Tavexner. Will counsel please identify herself for tlie record ? 

Mrs. Rosenberg. Rose S. Rosenberg. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Sink ? 

Mr. Sink. I was born in 1920 in the State of Indiana. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliere do you now reside ? 

Mr. Sink. In Santa Monica, Calif. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in California ? 

Ur. Sink. Since 1947. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you give the committee, please, your educa- 
tional background, a brief statement ? 

JNIr. Sink. I received a Bachelor of Fine Arts degree from Carnegie 
Institute of Technology in 1942. I have completed two years at 
Santa Monica City College, and I have completed one month at the 
University of California at Los Angeles. 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you complete that one month ? 

Mv. Sink. As of today, 

Mr. Tavenner. The committee has learned of the existence of 28 
units of the Communist Party comprising the Southern California 
District of the Conununist Party. We have received testimony that 
there is a club of the Conununist Party at Santa Monica at this 
time, constituting one of those 28 units. Are you a member of that 
unit of the Communist Party at this time ? 

Mr. Sink. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the fii*st 
and fifth amendments to the Constitution of the United States of 

Mr. Ta'v^nner. Will you tell the committee, please, whether or not 
you have ever been in the undergTound of the Communist Party in 
this area? Were you ever assigned to an underground unit of the 
Connnunist Party? 

Mr. Sink. I decline to answer that question on the same basis. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you been a member of the Communist Party 
in this area as long ago as 1950 ? 

Mr. Sink. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Moulder. Do you mean continuously since that period of time? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, I didn't ask him that. But I probably should. 

Have you been a member of the Communist Party continuously 
since 1950? 

Mr. Sink. Again, I decline to answer any questions as to my beliefs 
or my political activities or any organizations that I may have been 
a^ffiliated with on the basis of the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Moulder. May I ask this: Do you consider the Communist 
Party, as it exists in this country, a political party ? 
Mr. Sink. Are you asking my opinion ? 


Mr. Moulder. Yes. 

Mr. SixK. I decline to discuss my opinions Avith anyone on this 
committee at this time or at any other time. 

Mr. Moulder. How can you take tlie position that you decline to 
answer (questions on the basis that you have the right to keep your 
political affiliations secret and that we have no right to delve into it 
or ask you questions concerning it, if you also take the position that 
you can not tell us wliether or not the Communist Party is a political 
party. It seems rather inconsistent. You can't take both sides of 

Mr. Sink. I choose to claim tlie protection of the first and fifth 
amendments on this question at tliis time. 

Mr. Tavexxer. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. I have one question only. Do you consider the annual 
drive to raise funds to combat cancer to be a desirable thing or not? 

Mr. Sink. It was my understanding that the committee was after 
facts and not opinions. Are you asking me my opinion on this matter ? 

Mr. Jacksox^. I am simply testing your good faith in the use of the 
amendments which you have invoked, 

Mr. Sink. If you have a question, please state it to me as a question. 

Mr. Jacksox^. I have stated to you, do you consider that this is a 
good thing, to raise f mids for the drive against cancer ? 

Mr. Six^K. As I have stated, I do not choose to discuss any of my 
personal opinions with you in this forum. 

Mr. Jacksox^. You decline to answer the question ? 

Mr. Six'^K. I have declined to discuss my opinions with you in this 

Mr. Jacksox". And you decline to answer the question ? There is a 
question pending. 

Mr. Sink. May I ask the pertinency of this question ? 

Mr. Jacksox^ Yes, testing your good faith with reference to the use 
of the amendments to the Constitution which you have invoked. 

I will withdraw the question. 

Let me put it in a different way : Are you a member of the Ku Klux 

Mr. SixK. I decline to answer that on the basis of the first and fifth, 

Mr. Jackson. Are you a member of the Y.M.C.A. ? 

Mr. Sink. I would like to ask the pertinency of this question ? 

Mr. Jacksox^. To test your good faith in taking the constitutional 

Mr. Six-^K. I decline to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Jacksox-^. Do you seriously contend that to give me a truthful 
answer as to whether you are a member of the Y.M.C.A. would tend 
to make you liable to criminal prosecution? 

Mr. SiXK. I can only claim my constitutional privileges as guar- 
anteed me in respect to any organizations, which I may or may not 
have belonged to. 

Mr. Jackson. I will take respectful difference with you and say 
that to use the constitutional prerogatives in answer to whether or not 
you are a Boy Scout is a violation of every concept of the fifth amend- 
ment I have ever heard. 


Mr. Sink. I consider that in this fornni it is dangerous to discuss 
any afliliation or any association of any kind. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you believe if you were to tell me that you were 
an athletic instructor, a member of the Y.M.C.A., it would lay you 
open to prosecution on a criminal charge? 

Mr. Sink. If this question is not pertinent, there is no reason for 
me to answer this question. 

Mr. Jackson. One of the most pertinent questions I have asked to- 
day, because I want to find out 

Mr. Sink. I haven't finished, please. 

Mr. Jackson. Go ahead. 

Mr. Sink. If this question is not pertinent, then, of course, I am not 
required to answer. But if it is pertinent then I claim the privilege 
of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Jackson. I consider it very pertinent. I consider it pertinent 
inasmuch as it relates to the good faith in which you invoke the provi- 
sions of the fifth amendment. 

The fifth amendment provides that no one shall be required to give 
testimony against himself which may result in a criminal action 
against him or place him in jeopardy. 

Wlien you refuse to answer my question as to whether or not you 
are a member of the Y.M.C.A., the Young Men's Christian Associa- 
tion, and you invoke the fifth amendment, it is like a schoolchild 
taking the fifth amendment after breaking a window in the school- 
house. It is not, I contend, taken in good faith, and it is very relevant 
and very pertinent to ask you this question. 

Mr. Sink. You are raising questions which I, inasmuch as I am not 
a lawyer, I cannot discuss. I would like the privilege of my lawyer 
to present this point of view. 

Mr. Jackson. No. I am asking you a question. Your counsel has 
every right to advise you, as your counsel knows. She has represented 
a great many witnesses before this committee. You can, of course, 
persist in your declination to answer whether or not you are a mem- 
ber of the Y.M.C.A. by invoking the provisions of the fifth amend- 
ment to the United States Constitution. Invocations of this kind 
before a Senate Committee and House Committee and school boards 
and other authorities throughout this country have served to bring 
a great amendment into very low repute. 

I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused. 

Call the next witness. 

Mr. Taa^nner. Mr. Jack Burstein. 

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are 
about to give before this subconnnittee sliall be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Burstein. I do. 


Mr, WiRiN. This witness is quite deaf in his left ear. 

Mr. Moulder. So am I. 

Mr. WiRiN. You don't have to sit as close to me as he does. 


Mr. Tavenker. Will you state your name, please, sir ? 

Mr. BrRSTEix. James Burstein. 

Mr. Tam3Nner. Will counsel accompanying the witness please iden- 
tify himself ? 

Mr. WiRiN. A. L. Wirin. This is my last Avitness this afternoon. 

Mr. Tavexner. When and where were you born, Mr. Burstein ? 

Mr. BuRSTEix. Detroit, Mich., OctobarlS, 1916. 

jNIr. Tavexner, Where do you now reside ? 

Mr. Burstein. Los Angeles. 

Mr. Tavexner. How long have you lived in California ? 

Mr. Burstein. Since 1940. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ? 

Mr. Burstein. Liquor clerk. 

Mr. Ta^tnner. Will you tell the committee what your educational 
training has been ? 

Mr. Burstein. Yes, grammar school, high school, and 3 years of 

Mr. Ta'\t:xxer. The committee has been undertaking to determine 
what present activities of the rejuvenated Communist Party are in 
Southern California. We have learned of the existence of 28 units 
of the Communist Party, apparently, tightly organized; and pre- 
paratory to our asking you questions regarding the activities of these 
units, I want to ask you, first, whether or not you are a member of 
one of them. 

]\rr. Bursteix. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Tavexxer. Are you now a member of the Communist Party, 
of any unit ? 

Mr. Bursteix. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party ? 

Mr. Burstein. Same answer. 

Mr. Tavenner. It is quite apparent, Mr. Chairman, there is no use 
asking him questions if he i-efuses to answer regarding his member- 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused. 

Mr. Wirin. May I be excused, too ? 

Mr. Moulder. You are excused, too. 

Mr. Tavenner. IMay we have five minutes ? 

Mr. Moulder. The committee will stand in recess for a period of 5 

(Short recess taken.) 

Mr. Moulder. The next, please, INIr. Tavenner. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Adele Silva, will you take the stand, please? 

Mr. ]\[oiLDER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are 
about to give before this subcommittee shall be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mrs. Silva. I do. 


Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Silva, will you state your name, please? 

Mi-s. Silva. My name is Adele Kronick Silva. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliere do you now reside, Mrs. Silva? 


Mrs. SiLVA. Oakland, Calif. 

Mr. Tavenni:r. Have you at any time been a member of the Com- 
munist Party ? 
Mrs. SiLVA. Yes; I have been. 

Mr. Tavenner. During what period of time were you a member? 
Mrs. SiLVA. I was a member of the Commmiist Party part of the 
year of 1949 and most of the year of 1950. 

Mr. Ta\t3XNer. What was your reason for joining the Communist 
Party, how did it happen that you did ? 

Mrs. SiLVA. The reason for joining the Communist Party started 
some time in the year 1948. At that time I lived in the Territory of 
Hawaii and the Communists, through the I.L.W.U. and gi'oups in the 
Territory there, were infiltrating into all different political organiza- 
tions, and I was a member of one of the organizations they infiltrated 
and worked very arduously to keep them out. 

Mr, Tavenner. Did you confer with the Federal Bureau of In- 
vestigation in regard to the matter ? 

Mrs. SiLVA. Yes, I did. I and my brother were both in Hawaii in 
1948. We continued on with our work. We were going to get the 
fate that Hitler got, and I relayed this message to the F.B.I. 

Mr. Ta\t:nner. Well, during the period of time that you Avere 
actually in the Communist Party, were you there at the request of 
the Federal Bureau of Invastigation ? 

Mrs. Silva. Yes, I was, and at my request. I wondered how I 
could get in to help my country. 

Mr. Tavenner. Tell us a little more in detail what led up to your 
becoming a member of the Communist Party. 

Mrs. Silva. Well, I spoke to the F.B.I, and joined other organiza- 
tions in Hawaii and found that the work that was being done was at 
the time somewhat ineffective, not in the F.B.I., but in the organiza- 
tions. No one felt the need. Possibly I was young and these people 
talked to me; my brother was interested in his country, his Nation, 
and he felt the need, too. So, in talking to the F.B.I., they checked 
into my background and my family, and they thought that I might be 
able to follow my inclination to want to help, and I made a round- 
about turn and went into the Communist Party in Hawaii, the Ha- 
waiian Civil Liberties Committee, and became a hard-working member 
in that. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you asked to become associated with some of 
the prominent Communists in Hawaii ? 

ISIrs. Silva. Oh, yes. I not only was asked, but I was very much 
accepted by them. 

I felt that I had intimate conversations and intimate contacts with 
Mr. Jack Hall, Harriet Boiislog, Myer Symonds, friends of mine. I 
am not pointing them out as Communists, because I was never at a 
Communist meeting with Harriet Bouslog or Myer Symonds, but they 
were representatives of the Communist group. 

Mr. Tavenner. As to Harriet Bouslog, she has been identified to 
this committee by a number of witnesses as having been a member 
of the Communist Party and having served on a lobbying committee 
in Congress on behalf of the Communist Party. 

Mrs. Silva. From her activity I presumed that she had been, but I 
could not have said it because I have not been with her. 


Mr. Tavexxer. What about Adele Keusinger? 

Mrs. SiLVA. She was a Communist and wanted me to join the Com- 
munist Party when I came to California. 

Dr. Reinecke gave me letters of introduction to prominent Com- 
munists in Los Angeles. 

Mr. Ta%^xner. Dr. Reinecke, we understood very well from our in- 
vestigation conducted in Hawaii in 1950, was ousted as a professor 
at the university there because of his Communist Party activities. 

Mrs. SiLVA. I don't believe, sir, it was only his activities. To my 
knowledge, he conducted schools all through the Territory on Marx- 
ism and communism and was using the school system in Hawaii, and 
not making any — he wasn't embarrassed by doing it. 

Mr. TA^'EX"NER. You say you received letters of introduction from 

Mrs. SiLVA. Yes, I did, and pictures taken of him with various 
Communists in the Territory. So I came on to Los Angeles, where I 
had lived, where I had a home, Hollywood section. I felt my work 
would be more effectual if I came on here. 

]Mr. TA^^:xxER. So you came here armed with letters of introduc- 
tion from the leading Communist in Hawaii ? 

Mrs. SiLVA. Yes, and was told who to call. If I didn't have letters, 
I was told who to contact ; and I had become acquainted with Celeste 
Strack, who was an educational director of the Communist Party in 
the Territory of Hawaii, and went to many social affairs with Dr. 
Reinecke when she was there. 

She told me when I came to San Francisco to contact her for in- 

I went to San Francisco and contacted her, and she told me the 
steps to take to get into the Communist Party in Los Angeles. 

Mr. Tavexxer. Well, just tell the committee, please, what you did 
in Los Angeles. 

Mrs. Silva. Well, I came to Los Angeles, and apparently the mes- 
sage hadn't come from Celeste because she had gone to New York, as 
she said, to a trial, and I contacted a lady who she said to call and 
help her out, Marva Bovingdon of the Civil Rights Congress. 

Mr. Jacksox". What was the name ? 

Mrs. Silva. Bovingdon. 

]\Ir. Ta\t:xxer. Spell the last name. 

Mrs. Silva. I believe it is B-o-v-i-n-g-d-o-n. Her husband's name 
is John Bovingdon. And I contacted her. I contacted Lillian Ripps, 
of the California Labor School. 

Mr. TA^^EXXER. Lillian Ripps of the California Labor School, who 
was an intimate friend of Celeste Strack? 

What is her name, will you spell it, please? 

Mrs. Silva. R-i-p-p-s. Shall I go on? 

Mr. Tavexxer. Yes ; proceed. 

Mrs. Silva. I did some work for the Civil Rights Congress. I 
didn't feel that I could do much for them; I wasn't very well ac- 
quainted with them. 

Lillian Ripps in the California Labor School wanted all of the help 
that seemed to be possible to get, and I became acquainted with Mr. 
Hicks and Dr. Goldner. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is Mr. Hicks' first name? 


Mrs. SiLVA. Julian Hicks, and Dr. Sanford Goldner, California 
Labor School. He is a director, and also an instructor at the Cali- 
fornia Labor School of Jewish Studies, which they were starting: in 
the Wilshire district in Los Angeles. 

Mr. Jackson. The individuals you mentioned were known to you 
to be members of the Communist Party ''. 

Mrs. SiLVA. I knew them to be friends of the j^eople who were Com- 
mmiists in Hawaii. However, at that time I did not say that. Nor 
did it become known they were Communists until sometime later 
when we got to laiow each other better. 

Mr. Jackson. Subsequently you determined that they were both 
members of the Communist Pai-ty ? 

Mrs. SiLVA. Yes ; that is correct. 

Mr. Jackson. The point I make is that we want to be extremely 
careful in the use of names, unless you knew them to be members of 
the Communist Party, out of your own laiowledge. 

Mrs. SiLVA. In that area, sir, early this morning I sat down and 
wrote down from memory those people whom I had met. I said to 
myself, were they there or weren't they there. Did they say some- 
thing to you that you could still remember that Avould be important 
enough to relate to this committee, and these are the only facts I 
intend to present today, and nothing more. 

Mr. Jackson. Thank you. 

Mr. Ta^^nner. Will you just proceed, please, with what took place 
after beginning to do various types of work here in Los Angeles % 

Mrs. SiLVA. Well, I was active, somewhat active at the California 
Labor School. At that time they were on West Eighth Street, up- 
stairs from the Progressive Book Store, and I was starting to study 
some communism or the things that they had to say, and I was in the 
bookstore quite a good deal and had occasion, during that time, to have 
a cup of coffee or a sandwich downstairs with Miss Ripps or JSIr. 

They had meetings and lectures. I took several of their coui"ses. 
In fact, I took courses for about a year with them, and one day — of 
course, my whole purpose was, I hardly could believe these people 
were actually Communists at this point. I heard Celeste Strack say 
she was a Communist and bragged about it before people. 

I heard Jack Hall say that he was going to the Red and would stay 
Red all of his life. But it vras difficult to believe that these people, 
who had good things, were Communists. 

I thought Communists were not these kind of fellows. So I would 
sit with tliese people and talk Avitli them. 

So I, by that time, had become acquainted with tlie man in the book- 
store, the Progressive Book Store. His name was Hank Morley. 

Mr. Tavenner. Hank ? 

Mrs. SiLVA. Morley, M-o-r-l-e-y. 

Mr. Tavenner. Oh, Morley. 

Mrs. SiLVA. I went there. He gave me a card, and I signed the 
card, gave him my address and my phone numbei-, nnd lie said tliat 
someone would be in touch with me. 

Several days went by, and one evening, unannounced, several men 
came to my dooi- with a lady. They came in, they walked around 
my house, took quite an appraisal of it, and they instructed me to be 


at a meetino- of the Independent Progressive Party that evening at 
the home of a Sylvia Blankfort. 

Mr. Jackson. AVliere were you living, where was your home at this 

Mrs. SiLVA. My home was at 14351/^ North Crescent Heights Boule- 
vard in Hollywood. That was up near the Strip. 

So I went to the home of the Blankforts, and one of these gentle- 
men asked me for fifty cents for my dues, the party dues, and the 
other one asked me how it felt to be a Communist. 

Of course, I said, "I feel no different than I ever felt before. I 
have always been one of you.'' 

I sta3'ed at the meeting and they drove me — it was only a block, 
but they took me home, and they told me to be at the home of Milton 
Konove up in the Woodrow Wilson Pleights. 
Mr. Tavexner. Spell the name, please. 

Mrs. SiLVA. K-o-n-o-v-e. On Saturday night, and I went to this 
home. It was a party ; to my knowledge at the time, it wasn't a party 
Mr. Ta\'exxer. It was or was not ? 

Mrs. SiLVA. Xo ; it Avas a gathering of party functionaries. 
Mr. Tavenxer. Let's stop there just a moment. Did you know that 
]:)erson to he a member of the Communist Party at that time, or did 
you learn later ? 

Mrs. Silva. No. He was the gentleman who came to my house and 
I ook the money for the party dues. 

And at this home Avas a Mr. Emil Freed, and he spoke about his 
time, being in prison for being a Communist; and they all spoke of 
their experiences with the law and with law enforcement. 

And I came on home with a lady I had gone up with, and I Avas told 
(o be at a meeting on Wednesday night, and that would be my party 
n ight — the niglit to be at my club meeting. 

On Wednesday night, Wednesday evening, Mr. Konove stopped by 
my house and told me just Avhere tlie meeting would be, and I went 
over there. It was quite close to Avliere I lived. It was the home of 
Ben and Penny Rinaldo, at the meeting house project in the Wilshire 

It seems I came in at a time Avheii the full club was beinc: reorgan- 
ized, new members were coming in, some were being switched and 
some Avere being sent into other territories, into other work; and I 
became a member of the Theodore Dreiser Club of the party. 
Mr. Taa'enxer. Theodore Dreiser Club ? 
Mrs. Silva. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Taat.xxer. Noav, Avill you tell me AAdiat type of Avork that club 
was engaged in at that time ? 

Mrs. SiLA'A. At that time they Avere — I AA^ould say that they Avere 
re-forming their club, although I later found out that they were con- 
tinually re-forming the club for ncAv action and new actiA'ity. 

I Avas put into a split part of (he club which was a cell, as I knoAv 
it to be noAV and shortly thei-eafter, and our activity was developed 
as to Avhat the orders Avere in tlio party, what articles Ave AA-ere to read — 
Mainstream, Avhat the, People's World Avas Avriting about, all these 
things Avere correlated by our educational director — so they Avorked 
in many and A'arious things and continually. 


Mr. Tavenner. What assignments, if any, were given tlie Commu- 
nist Party members in addition to that? 

Mrs. SiLVA. In addition to that, I would say I could go along with 
this gentleman Avho testified before lunch today. Ke said that he con- 
sidered, or I believe he meant to say that he considered working for 
the People's World was part of his mass organizational work, and 
such it was, as a Communist member myself. Coming to the meet- 
ing was expected. It was expected of me because I had been a member 
at large. I was not a professional who seemed to be relieved from 
coming to the meetings. Selling the People's World, getting sub- 
scriptions was expected. We reported continually on the sul)scrij)- 
tions we sold, who we sold them to. Buying literature was expected. 

It was brought to the club in boxes this size, and a good member 
bought it and read it and studied it. 

These were all the things that you just did, without doing any- 
thing else. 

Then, on top of that, there were committees continually being- 
formed, committees to do various types of things to further these aims 
that were being laid down by top echelons of the party, coming 
through the literature, which was then decided, how to activate it by 
the section organizers and the section educational directors. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did various members of the party go out into mass 
organizations to carry out their duties ? 

Mrs. SiLVA. Yes. There was a time in the early part of 1950 — and 
I recall this meeting most specifically, it was a meeting called by 
Mr. Kinaldo himself. He was the president or the chairman, the top 
commandant of our ]3articular part. All of the members — not just 
the cell that I was in, maybe eight or nine people and myself — but 
members from the Dreiser Club, which maybe were 25 or 30, and he 
took us to task for the things that were not being done, the things 
that had to be done, and we all sat and had a round-table discussion 
and told what we were doing, what organizations we were in, what 
effect we were having in these organizations, and this was every mem- 
ber of the club that was present. 

There were a few members not present at the time, but it was under- 
stood so-and-so wasn't there ; he is at his organization. He won't be 
here tonight. His organization is having a meeting, not the Commu- 
nist organization, the front organization that he was working with. 

Mr. Tavenner. Then was it the understanding that each member 
should go out and do a particular work in mass organizations? 

Mrs. SiLVA. This was part of the program, and it was laid down very 
strictly by our chairman and by our educational director that the 
party had to get busy and do this kind of work, that they weren't 
doing enough of it. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now, it is important for us to understand just what 
character of work these members were doing, that is, in what organ- 
izations they were working and how they got into them, or any infor- 
mation that you can give us as to that type of objective of the Com- 
munist Party, and, in telling us about that, give us the names of 
any persons that you know were engaged in any particular assign- 
ment of that character. 


Mrs. Selva. Well, Mr. Tiivenner, that Avould have covered over a 
year. I know that I could talk on and on and on for days as to vrhal 
these people did and what they Avere doing. 

So I this morning — if the committee doesn't mind — I wrote down 
one organization which was just shocking to me as an individual, what 
was being done and how they organized this one organization. If you 
AA-ouldn't mind, it Avould help me if I could kind of go along with my 

]\Ir. Tavexner. Surely. 

]\Irs. SiLVA. One reason why this was shocking to me, because, as a 
Jewess, I Avas sent in to organize a group of JeAvish people. We Avere 
using Jewish organizations, innocent organizations, fine organizations, 
which I knew OA'er the history of my entire family we had supported, 
that were not Communist, kneAv one to haA^e been a beneficial society 
at one time, helping people out of work, who were sick; and Avhen I 
sat at the meeting and found out, as time Avent on, that all of these dif- 
ferent comrades had to tell Avhat clubs they were in, Avhat they AA^ere 
doing, and for that purpose, it Avas so shocking and traumatic to me 
that I haA^e never forgotten it. 

I haA'e put it doAvn here, member to member, a]id then I could tell you 
about how Ave were taught and had to go into these clubs and what Ave 
did to organize one organization alone. 

"Sir. Tavenner. Very good. 

Mrs. SiLA^A. All right, sir? 

Mr. Taat:nnek, Yes. 

Mrs. Silva. In the club there Avas a young lady named Penny 

Mr. Jackson. Perhaps you had better spell these names for the re- 

Mrs. SiLAA. P-e-n-n-y R-i-n-a-l-d-o and Ben Rinaldo. He seemed 
to be the apparent chairman of the Theodore Dreiser Club. He Avould 
attend to the Arts, Sciences and Professions Council. He Avas at large. 
He would go to the different cells on Wednesday night to see how Ave 
Avere doing in our club meetings. 

So Avhat other attachments he had, I do not knoAV. 

There Avas Rose Marshall. I found that she Avas an instructor at the 
California Labor School. She was also a A^ery vociferous member of 
the Arts, Sciences and Professions Council. She also Avas going to 
join the JeAvish Peoples Fraternal Order. 

There Avas Bessie Halpern, who Avas a secretary 

Mr. Taa^nxer. Spell the name. 

Mrs. Silva. H-a-1-p-e-r-n, who Avas the secretary of the JeAvish Peo- 
ples Fraternal Order. 

NoAv, from Avliat I understand and Avhat I am quite sure of, most of 
these organizations in a community as large as Los Angeles had 
Ijranclies, so these people Avould have 1)een in only the branch in my 
neighborhood, possibly the Avest section of the J.P.F.O. — it might have 
been the east section. So I could possibly assume that if one of our 
comrades from Dreiser Avas going to the J.P.F.O. and Avas a secre- 
tary there, that practically every J.P.F.O. officer Avho had been with 
the Communist Party, Avas working through these various organiza- 
tions. But I speak for only the ones that I knoAV out of my party who 
said in my presence that night this is Avhere they were working; and 


we were on the hot seat, and they came up and defended themselves 
and said they were doing enoii<»:h work. 

There is Morris Anatole, who was head of a Jewisli veterans grouj). 

Mr. Tavenner. Spell the name, please. 

Mrs. SiLVA. I believe it is A-n-a-t-o-l-e or A-n-o-t-o-l-e. It was 

There was Jessie ('arufo. Her husband was nn oi-ganizer in tlie 
aircraft iiidustry. 

There was Kuth Offer, who was attached to the Arts, Sciences and 
Professions Council. 

There was Fargo, who was freed from the meetings ; he came maybe 
once in two months just to say hello, because he was working strictly 
within the Jewish Peoples Fraternal Order. 

There was Irene Hyer, the choral group, I guess we would call thax, 
of the California Labor School. 

Sylvia Blankfort, Independent Progressive Party. 

There was a young man whose name was Hal. I don't remeniuKi 
his last name — Daily People's World. 

^V girl named Deborah Weinberg, Jewish Hadassah, Congress of 
Jewish Women; she was affiliated with that. 

There was a Ruth Slade, who was touring Europe. I didn't know 
what her affiliation was. 

Mr. Tavexner. What is the spelling? 

Mrs. SiLVA. S-1-a-d-e. 

Mr. Tavenner. I understand these were all members of the Dreiser 
Club of the Communist Party? 

Mrs. SiLVA. Yes, each one w'as. 

Mr. Tavenner. During this period did you help create any Com- 
munist Party group or front organization? 

Mrs. SiLVA. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Ta\t:nner. During this particular period ? 

Mrs. SiLVA. Yes. 

Mr. Ta\tenner. TVIiile you were a member of the Dreiser Club ? 

Mrs. SiLVA. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Ta\-enner. Will you tell us about that, please? 

Mrs. SiLVA. Yes. I helped to organize and create the West Side 
Committee Against Renazification of Germany, and this was done by a 
call to my home by Milton Konove, who was the section organizer"^ of 
the Communist Party, Westside Section of Los Angeles. 

The purpose was, following up these meetings, following up articles 
that were in the People's World and New Masses that the party was 
not doing effective work within the Jewish groups, as effective as 
the party wished done. 

So it was decided to organize clubs which would interest the Jewish 

As a Jewess, I know that the Jewish people get somewhat shook up 
when they hear the word "naziism," or all of these things. And they 
used this particular thing for the purpose of using the emotions of the 
Jewish people to get them involved into their organizations. 

Now, it was my belief that they didn't want them all as Communists, 
but in going into the groups they were able to get their labors, their- 
efforts, their projjaganda over, and to get their money, to get their 
dues from them. The J.P.F.O. would give so much of their dues to 


their officers who were Communists to buy tickets and to give sub- 
scriptions. They did this in the West Side Committee Against 
Renazification of Germany. 

So jMr. Konove told me that I "U'ould be relieved from my work in 
the l^art}', going to meetings, while I Avorked on getting this committee 
headed up and started. 

Mr. Tavenner. Then you would say the accomplishment of that 
group was to tap sources of revenue that otherwise wouldn't be avail- 
able to the Communist Party, as well as to form a ground for recruit- 
ing members in the Communist Party ? 

JNIrs. SiLVA. Exactly. 

Mr. Jackson. During this time you were making reports to the 
Federal Bureau of Investigation ? 

Mrs. Silva. Yes, I was. 

Mr. Jackson. With what frequency did you send j^our reports? 

;Mrs. Silva. Well, when I had something that I thought was im- 
j)ortant, that I thought should be known, I would get it to them 
immediately — sometimes the next day or a couple of days after, 
whenever time permitted me to, I would have my report and deliver 
it to them. 

jSIr. Jacksox. Were you concurrently, while you were working for 
the Bureau, working in any other occupation ? 

Mrs. Silva. Oh, yes. I was working as a bookkeeper. I was not 
a full-time employee of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. 

Mr. Jackson. I had meant to pursue this a little more. We hear a 
lot about paid informers and hirelings. To what extent did the 
Bureau help you meet expenses? Did you get rich working for the 
Bureau ? 

Mrs. Silva. Well, Congressman, I will say this: If I didn't work, 
or when I was ill if I didn't have a small income from a little home 
that I owned, and hadn't been able to subsidize myself, believe me, 
for the mass of the Communist Party- — because they thought I had a 
little something- — I could never have pursued my work. I knew that 
I took my resources at times; I couldn't go to the Bureau and say, 
"I want money for this," and "I want money for that." They would 
say to me, "AVe just can't believe that, $25.00 to give to the Civil 
Rights Congress." 

I said, "Yes, but they told me they wanted fifty." 

I went to dinners at Ciro's, the Beverly Wilshire Hotel. I had to 
buy clothes like these other people were wearing, dress just as well as 
they did. The members of my party, they lived better than I, all 
of them. I was within their group, and I tried to even keep up to 
iheir social standards, and it was very difficult for a working girl to 
do that. 

Mr. Jackson. You were traveling in pretty high-class company 
around Beverly Hills. Where were the Beverly Hills meetings held ? 

Mrs. Silva. When we got together to form the West Side Commit- 
tee Against Renazification of Germany, we met at a person's 
swimming pool. The maid served cocktails, a colored maid. 

Mr. Jackson. Cocktails served by a maid beside a swimming pool at 
a Communist Party meeting ? 

Mrs. Silva. AAHiile the comrades were meeting to form something to 
Involve the Jews. 


Mr. Jackson. This is the proletariat revohition brought right down 
to cases. How many attended this meeting? 

Mrs. SiLVA. The first meeting, there were about five of us; this 
man's home, tlie next meeting, there were ten. 

Mr. Jackson. Beside the swimming pool ? 

Mrs. Silva. No. The first meeting was beside the swimming pool. 
The next meeting was in the home. 

Mr. Jackson. In the same place ? 

Mrs. Silva. In the same home, yes. 

Mr. Jackson. There were servants working in the home where {lie 
party was? 

Mrs. Silva. Yes, served dinner; at one affair there was a cocktail 
]5arty given for Dr. Howard Selsam, who was the educational direc- 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell the name? 

Mrs. Silva. S-e-1-s-a-m, given by a gentleman for Howard Selsam, 
who was the educational director of the Jefferson School of Social 

Tliis was for donations to keep the California Labor School in 

There was a party at his home, and he had hired a bartender for 
the cocktail party given at his private home; I believe it is on June 
Street, in the vevy exclusive Wilshire neighborhood. 

Mr. Jackson. These affairs were for the purpose of raising funds 
for various Communist 

Mrs. Silva. At times. This was to raise funds for the California 
Labor School. 

Mr. Jackson. They charged for various — ■ — 

Mrs. Silva. There were donations, and they charged, I think it was 
$5 or $7.50 for the ticket. 

Mr. Jackson. To go in? 

Mrs. Silva. To the dinner, yes. 

Mr. Jackson. Any other charges while you were there ? 

JNIrs. Silva. There were donations at every meeting, mass meeting, 
organizational meeting, except the time at the party meeting. They 
didn't ask us for money at the meeting. The hat was always passed. 
Many a time I passed the hat myself. 

Mr. Jackson. This was pretty expensive company for you to keep 
up with, wasn't it ? 

Mrs. Silva. It was, it certainly was. I was quite shocked ; in fact, 
it was a shocking experience to find that they were exploiting the 
working people. They were exploiting the Jewish people. They 
were exploiting the Negro people, talking from both sides of their 
faces, and yet they were living in the very laps of luxury. 

Mr. Jackson. Thank you. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remain a member of the Dreiser 

Mrs. Silva. I remained a member of the Dreiser Club until Sep- 
tember of 1050. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you transferred then to another club ? 

Mrs. Silva. No. I went up North. My mother had passed away. 
My family wanted me home, and I w^asn't feeling too well. I found 
it almost impossible to keep up w^ith my duties as a Communist, keep 


in a position to support myself and to work for the Bureau, and so I 
thought that I had done all I possibly could and, if I did any more, 
it would injure my health. I talked to the Bureau and they said it 
would be all right; they realized that my health was suffering, because 
I worked day and night for the Communist Party. 

Mr. Jacksox. I should have thought the least the F.B.I, could have 
done would be to transfer you down to Boyle Heights where it would 
be a little cheaper to keep up with the "Joneskis." 

Mrs. SiLVA. I presume they are taking as much money out of the 
people in Boyle Heights as they are taking out of the people in Bev- 
erly Hills. 

Mr. JacksojSt. But in smaller bites. 

Mrs. SiLVA. I know, but it would hurt them just as much, maybe 
in smaller amounts ; these people, most unsuspecting ; they don't know- 
where it is going. 

I helped count the money that was given when they took the money 
in for Dr. Howard Selsam that night, and someone took five and 
someone took ten. There was enough taken out to pay for the hotel, 
the Mayflower Hotel, and the next day I spoke to Miss Ripps, and she 
said they gathered up $117.00. Now, she could get her wages and they 
could pay Sanford Goldner's wages that particular week; they had 
to draw against wages. This was a dinner to get the wages for the 
people who were running the California Labor School. They didn't 
care about the David Hedley memorial. They used David Hedley 
and all of these things to further their own needs. 

Mr. Tavenner. Let me go back a moment: You referred to this 
front organization which you helped organize, and you said there 
were some three or four people who came to your home where you did 
that work of organizing. 

Mrs. SiLVA. No, sir. Milton Konove came to my home. He was 
the section organizer. He told me — he instructed me, rather, and 
directed me to meet with members of tlie Shafi-an Club, the Eva Shaf- 
ran Club of the Communist Party. 

I was to meet at the home of Jack Flier or to call Jack Flier, whom 
I did know, tell him that I was calling to make a date for our first 

Mr. TA^^sNNER. Spell the name Flier. 

Mrs. SiLVA. F-1-i-e-r, and he told me Sylvia Evanston, whom I 
knew, would be there — I knew that she belonged to the Shafran Club 
because she had already told me, meeting her at one time, that she 
belonged to Shafran, and she was there. 

There were several, about two other people, and another lady came 

There we started building up an organization that had no name, 
that had no format, but there were things that were brought in, and 
we decided upon a name and how to get the thing off on its feet. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now, do you recall any other person whose name 
you have not given who participated in that ? 

Mrs. SiLVA. Yes, a Mr. Morris Linn came over there, and I recall 
these names because I wrote down the officers of this organization; 
we elected each other officers that night. There was Jack Flier, who 
was chairman ; Morris Linn, treasurer. 



Mrs. SiLVA. L-i-n-n, I believe it is. I am not sure. Robert Metz- 
ger, myself, publicity chairman, and a lady luimed Sylvia Major 
was going to participate. It wasn't until the brochures were printed — 
I don't know if she ever got her name on there. I think it was taken 
off. But she brought all of the material necessary for us to use to 
start getting this organization off on its feet. This very same ma- 
terial had been circulated through the ])ai'ty club the week before, 
when I was at the Theodore Dreiser Club. 

I would like to go a little bit more in detail about this connnittee. 
Would it be all right? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 

Mrs. SiLVA. In meeting this handful of people, they were to go 
back — we had chosen part of a name that we wanted ; we wanted to 
appeal to the Jewish people, particularly, the Jewish people on the 
west side. This was a movement through the party in New York 
already. It was published in the Cominform. This was somewhat 
of a call from the Communist Party ; and we got this pilot group, each 
one of us, the following Monday, were to meet and bring one more 
person or two more people to the next meeting, and they were to be 
peo])le brought out of the organization that they belonged to. 

Mr. Tavenner. "What type of organization? 

Mrs. SiLVA. I want to make this clear: It wasn't the Communist 
organization, because we were already sent from the Communist Party. 
We would have already been there. So then this would be a front 
organization or possibly some comrades who were in the front and 
active in the front. 

At this next meeting, which was the home of Morris Linn — and 
this is one of the homes that w^as surrounded by a very lovely swimming 
pool and most comfortable — at this meeting we had somewhat of a 
democratic process of picking a name. It was already chosen as the 
West Side Committee Against Renazification of Germany, and a 
Mr. Jack Ayeroff was there. 

]\rr. Ta^"enner. Jack who? 

Mrs. SiLVA. Ayeroff. He was in the printing business. I don't 
recall the name of the organization that he represented. 

Mr. Jack Flier was, I believe, on the Jewish Veterans Committee. 

Sylvia Major was working through the Jewish Congress. That's it. 

That night at that meeting Jack Flier came in and told us that he 
h;id gotten his organization, his front organization, to vote $100 to 
the West Side ( 'ommittee Against Eenazification of Germany. Every- 
one subscribed as to what their grou]'> was going to do, that had gotten 
commitments. We were sent out and told to get further commitments. 

This finally built itself up into a large meeting of about 200 people 
at the Beverly Hills Hotel, and that night it was read off to us the 
commitments, the amount of money. We would meet, after a meeting 
like this, in the group and get together ; the pilot group had a social 
contact by this time. 

Mr. Jackson. The Communists? 

Mrs. SiLVA. That's right. Those who met tlie first time under the 
(liiection of Mr. Konove — we didn't ever ha^e these other people with 
us lifter the meeting. 

Mr. Jackson. You wouldn't want to let them in on the fact this was 
a Communist operation; it would hnxe been very foolish? 


Mrs. SiLVA. No. There might have been some who might have been 
Avorking in these organizations that were not known as Communists. 

Mr, Jackson. Let me get this thing in context now : The Communist 
Party decided to start a movement or a Committee Against 
Kenazification of Germany ? 

Mrs. SiLVA. No. They didn't decide to start this. They were in- 
structed to involve the Jewish people in this particular section, and 
how to involve them, so they thought up this committee. 

Mr. Jackson. The committee was to be the agency by which they 
Avere to be brought in and interested in the committee, non- 
Communists ? 

Mrs. Silva. That's right. 

Mr. Jackson. In other words, Communists were to go out and get 
to non-Communists and bring them l^ack in and use their per- 
suasion to get money and sell tickets and get funds for their front 
organization; and it all builds up to a big meeting where there are 
200 people there, the large part of whom were not Communists, but 
who were honestly concerned about the renazification of Germany. 

After the non-Communists went home, the Conmiunists sat down 
and talked about what a success it had been. 

Mrs. Silva. It was a greater success than that. It was — they were 
able to enlist the president — who was told to me to be the president — 
Mrs. Sylvia, president of Hadassah, who was sending out all of their 
literature for them, posted over the Hadassah's letterhead. 

Mr. Jackson. A non-Communist ? 

Mrs. Silva. I don't know what she was. I cannot say. You could 
pick up the phone and call her direct. She might have been a Com- 
munist at large. 

Mr. Jackson. You have no knowledge as to her ? 

Mrs. Silva. No, I didn't meet her, never saw the woman at any 
time. She never made an appearance. 

Mr, Jackson. But letters did go out over her signature on Hadassah 
stationery ? 

Mrs. Silva. Yes, yes, the mailing list and the names of all the mem- 
bers of the Hadassah. To belong to Hadassah, the Rotarians, let us 
say they belonged to the Knights of Columbus, to get something en- 
dorsed by any organization that you think a great deal of gives cre- 
dence and importance to it, and it became important, so they had a 
mass rally. It was at the stadium near Farmers Market. I had to 
go up — my mother had passed aw^ay by that time. She had been 
very ill. 1 understand that there were over 2,000 people at this par- 
ticular rally, and they sold tickets and took donations at this par- 
ticular rally. This all started from direction from Milton Konove 
to get something — it came out of a directive, as I said before, of our 
party chairman, telling us we weren't doing what we should do with 
our mass organization. Here we sat in a Jewish neighborhood section 
and did nothing about it. And this was the ultimate end. This was 
what it did. I am sure that thousands of people came and heard. 
There was to be an annihilation of Jews— the piclures that avcic 
^hown — Sylvia Major brought picdiros 

Mr. Tavknnkk. Sy] via who ? 


Mrs. SiLVA. Major. That made my blood curl. We were reading 
again all about the Nuremberg trials. Yes, they happened under 
fascism. They don't happen in this country, but these were the things 
that were being stimulated, something that would touch the hearts 
and feelings of the Jewish people. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you know what disposition was made of the funds 
derived from the mass meeting? 

Mrs. SiLVA. Well, I know that some of the funds were going to Mr. 
Bob Kenny to help him become elected to Congress. I believe it was 
Congress or Senate. 

Mr. Jackson. Fmids from this mass meeting went into a i:)olitical 
campaign to help in the election of a candidate for public office^ 

Mrs. SiLVA. Yes. 

Mr. Jackson. Plow was this related to, or equated with, the renazi- 
fication of Germany ? 

Mrs. Silva. It had no relationship of any kind. It had no connec- 
tion of any kind. The only connection was that this was a way to get 
money. There no doubt wer-e people who wanted to get paid. Maybe 
the California Labor School got some of it, possibly the party got 
some of it. The People's World had big ads, so we could pay the Peo- 
ple's World ads. They could get their lingers into it. This was a 
chance for Mr. Kenny to speak. This did all the things tlie party 
wanted done, and this 

Mr. Tavexxer. I understood you to say that the Communists got 
lists from some of these legitimate organizations of their membership ? 

JNIrs. Silva. From all of them. They had them from the Jewish 
Congress, from the Hadassah. They had them from the National 
Council of Jewish Women. They had them from some of the syna- 
gogues, from everywhere. You wondered just how they Avere getting 
them. Of course, I knew they had plants in eveiything. They had me 
planted in here, and they had the next person planted in there. They 
worked until they became officers, until they finally got these lists out 
to their friends. 

Mr. Ta\^nneb, I suppose a lot of the members have always won- 
dered hoAT they happened to be getting so much literature of a certain 
character ? 

Mrs. Silva. Probably so, and they never knew where it was coming 
f rouL They thought many times their organization was backing this. 
They would think it is good. They get something in the mail. It says 
this is good. Do this or don't do it, and they read it and go along 
with it, particularly if they think — well, if they are president or chair- 
man of an organization. I know 15 years ago if I got something 
from an organization I belonged to, I would assume I would just do 
Avhat they said; I thought this much of it. 

Mr. Tavexner. You said some of the money may have gone to the 
California Labor School. Did you liaA^e any special connection or 
experience Avith the Labor School ? 

Mrs. SiLA^A. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Tavexner. I AA^ould like you to tell us about that, unless you 
have something more to say about the matter we have just been dis- 


Mrs. SiLVA. Well, I don't know. T hoi)e T hiive made myself clear. 
I have tried to explain, as I have tiied before, to point ont Avhat the 
Commnnist Party club is, what a Communist-infiltrated club is, what 
organizations can have happen to them and has had happen to them 
through m}^ experience. This was one classic example of it. 

I don't know if I have made myself clear. 1 have tried. 

Mr. Jackson. I would say I think this is one of the clearest exposi- 
tions I have ever heard of how a few dedicated people can cari-y out a 
l)roje€t. Mr. Chairman, it could very well be a lesson to every Ameri- 
can to watch his organizations a little more closely than many Ameri- 
cans have been prone to do in the past. I think it is an excellent 
exposition, and I hope that it has wide circulation when the committee 
hearings are published. 

Too many Americans are apathetic about the use of their names 
and their organizations, the letterheads of their organizations, the 
purposes to which they lend their prestige, and I personally think 
this is one of the most graphic examples that I have any knowledge 
of, Mr. Chairman. 

Mrs. SiLVA. You asked me about the California Labor School. 

I spent some time around the California Labor School. That, again, 
is a whole other story. It is not a labor school; it doesn't teach a 
craft or didn't teach a craft or a trade. It didn't get a person a job. 

It was a place whei'e they could get out (^onnnunist propaganda. 
That's all I found at the Labor School. 

I took a course in journalism. If I had to go out in the world and 
make a living from what I learned there, I could never have eai-ned 
any form of a living. 

They taught inter}:) retative dancing, ceramics, for which they were 
getting Federal funds inider the G.I. Bill of Rights, and they gave 
courses all with a real down-the-line left-hand deal. 

While around there, I would say I was a hard-working Govern- 
ment agent, and learning from the Communists to work hard in an 
organization. I took a i)age out of their book and I worked hard in 
their organization, so I went down to the Labor School and gave them 
a lot of my time, filled envelopes, typed letters, and sj^ent money on 
Lillian Ripps, this one and the next one, and they Avere very glad to 
have me around them. So I got to know a great deal about them. 

I went to their dinners, their parties, their club meetings. 

After being around there foj- a while, they were going to have a 
meeting. I was in the party by this time. They knew it, because 
there was a close connection between the party and the Labor School. 
By this time I wouldn't be addressing envelopes and being inside theii- 
inner sanctum if I weren't a Connnunist Party meml)er. I was in- 
vited to an afternoon affair to be held at the home of a Mr. Hay, 
H-a-y. I believe it is Harry Hay. He was, if I recall properly, a 
musical teacher of some kind, and I was at his home for the purpose 
of mapping out and formulating the format for the next season's 
school curricuhun. At this meeting with the instructors — one of the 
instructors was one of my comrades, Rose Marshall — at this afternoon 
and evening meeting, it was decided how Marxism would be taught 
to the peoi)le that they would get to join the California Lal)or School. 
It advertises itself as a school to help the working man. Peoi)le 
whom I had met befoi'e and after thought it was good to help them 


develop their potential in life ajid bo able to iiu'ioase (heir cainiii^s. 
Tliis was tlie tiling that one would presume it was d()in<i:. Fi'oni uiy 
experience it was not doino- that at all. It was completeiy a Mai'xist 

Mr. Taxknner. May we have just a few minutes ^ 

Mr. jNIouldek. The committee will recess a feAv minutes. 

(Short recess taken.) 

Mr. Jackson (presiding). The committee will be in oidei'. 

The witness will resume the witness stand. Mr. Mouldei', the 
chairman of the subcommittee, has been called away on oflicial busi- 
ness. The chair will be occupied for the balance of the hearings by 
the member from California. 

Mr. Tavenxer. You spoke of the meeting that was held which you 
attended, regarding the curriculum that was to be taught the suc- 
ceeding year. 

Mrs. SiLVA. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. How were policies of the California Labor School 
generally settled or agreed upon ? 

Mrs. SiLVA. I speak of this particular meeting for setting forth 
the curi-iculum for that term coming up. At the meeting, after dinner 
was served, we waited for a while, two gentlemen came in, and we 
all sat down, and sitting at the head of the round room, the room 
where we all sat around, was a Dr. Goldner, director of the school. 
Dr. Sanford Goldner, 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell that 'l 

Mrs. Silva. G-o-l-d-n-e-r. I have been trying to spell the names, 
because certainly I woidd not want to see anyone with a similar name 
be used here, because it would be a terrible thing to associate them with 

Sanford Goldner, G-o-l-d-n-e-r. 

There was Julian Hicks, there was Lillian Eipps, there was Rose 
Marshall, there was Silan Chan. 

Mr. Ta^-enxer. \s\\o is that ? 

Mrs. Silva. Silan Chan, I think, or Chin ; C-h-a-n, I believe it could 
be. She was teaching interpretative dancing at the school. There 
was Farol, the Harbor Division of the California Labor School. That 
was down in Wilmington or San Pedro. 

There was Harry Hay in whose home this meeting was held. 
There was his wife, whose first name I don't know. There was myself. 
Let me look at my review here and see if there were any others. 

There was Marva Bovingdon, who was on the faculty, or her hus- 
band, John, who was on the faculty. John had been on the faculty 

There was a chap named John, whose name I do not recall and a 
man by the name of Welanko. Sitting on the other end, all the way 
towards the end of Dr. Goldner, was Mr. Henry Black, who I will 
identify in a few moments, and a Mr. William Taylor. 

Mr. Jackson. Can you further identify Mr. Taylor? 

Mrs. Silva. I can identify him this way, that I didn't presume that 
these people were any such thing, but we introduced ourselves, and 
Dr. Goldner introduced himself. Julian said what he was, Lillian 
said what she was, and I said what 1 was, and we got around to Mr. 
Henry Black, and he said he was a librarian of the Jefferson School of 


Social Science, and there was Mr. William Taylor, who was the educa- 
tional director of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Jacksox. They are not uncommon names. 

Mrs. SiLVA. So in round-table discussion each one talked about 
whether Marxism was being taught the right way, not whether it was 
being taught theoretically the right way, but whether it was being 
taught the way it was getting to the people in the school, and whether 
it was going to get more people in the school, how to teach it to get 
more people, more members. 

It was wliether it would be implied Marxism, implication and 
theory, or whether they were going to come right out and say this 
is Karl i\Iarx and this is a revolutionary thing, and you are going to 
go after this and you are going to do this, or whether it was going to 
be watered down, and this was the word used, or we were going to 
build it up. And finally it came around to Mr. William Taylor, and 
he said this is what the party wants out of the school, and there was 
no longer any doubt in my mind that the California Labor School 
was a school run by the Communist Party. 

Now, I don't say that this was the only school run by the Commu- 
nist Party ; this was the kind of a school that Joe Doe or Mary Doe — I 
am just using names that I hope are not existent — they wanted to get 
these people to the school and keep a certain front up. This is not 
the other school that I had started to go to as a member of the Com- 
munist Party. I went to the California Labor School and I was put 
as a student adviser. I am sure I Avas a very poor adviser to the 
students there, because I coiddn't advise them heartfully to go to 
C^alifornia Labor School. 

While I was in the party, Mr. Morris Anatole and Milton Konove 
told me that they wanted me to go to the school where I would learn 
strategy and tactics; and from week to week, each week I was going 
to be told where to go, and finally one dusky evening I was told this 
is the night to go, Tuesday night, and I dropped everything. He 
stopped by the house and — he went to the house and let me off; he 
told me to walk up a block, go around the corner another block, around 
the corner another block, and then go to a home which had a back 
stairs — this sounds almost like something out of a page of fiction, but 
it is so — and go up the back stairs and go into this apartment, there 
would be a girl there, a couple of other people, and there we would 
have a class. 

And when I got there he was already there. I went over alone, and 
he went alone, and this other lady was there, and a very sad part to 
find was Ruth Greenberg was there, and she was one of the officers, I 
understood to be an officer of the Pioneer Women's club. She was 
at this little class taking tactics and strateg3^ 

I went to this class twice and I went home ill and very, very sick 
and I couldn't lend myself to it any longer, and it was just by that 
time that I retired from my work. I didn't want to know their 
strategy and I didn't want to know their tactics, because I know I 
could never do it; I could never be a counterspy. I was completely 
for my Government and my people and I just think it was terrible. 
So I didn't pursue it. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you leave then and go to San Francisco? 

Mrs. SiLVA. Yes, I did. I went back home to Oakland. 


Mr. Tavennek. I failed to ask you, as 1 usually ask witnesses, what 
your occupations have been. I think you have been a public account- 
ant, haven t you ? 

Mrs. SiLVA, Yes. I am a public accountant and after I left the 
party, my work at the Bureau, I wanted to further my studies, and 
I Avent to nursino- school. I did nursing for a while, and now I am 
back doing accounting, and I might want to do nursing again. 

Mr. Tavenner. Does that about cover your knowledge while work- 
ing for the Federal Bureau of Investigation, of things that you think 
would be pertinent to this hearing? 

Mrs. SiLVA. Well, sir, I could reiterate another meeting and another 
group and another instruction and things that happened in Honolulu ; 
after all, a year, when you are meeting once a week in your club and 
you're meeting in front organizations and you are selling tlie Pe()})le's 
World, many, many things happen. 

Mr. Jackson. ( 'ounsel, I assume the witness will be available to the 
committee staff. Tlie hour is getting late. Do you have any more 
direct questions at this time ? 

Mr. Tavennek. I think we should ask her to give the benefit of that 
information which she just spoke of to the investigators so we may 
make a record of it. 

Mr. Jackson. Yes. You will be willing to do that, confer with our 
investigator ? 

Mrs. Sieva. Yes. I will say this: I have not felt imposed upon, 
cooperating with your committee. I have been embarrassed for the 
people who refused to say whether they were or were not, but this is 
party strategy and party tactics. And I am embarrassed for those who 
might be of my faith who would do this in this beautiful country of 
ours, and I hope that they don't continue to pursue that sort of thing. 

Mr. Tavenner. That is all. 

Mr. Jackson. You were not here yesterday. I addressed a brief 
statement to Mrs. Marion Miller, who appeared and who had also 
served, as you served, as an undei'cover agent within the Communist 
Party for a Government agency. Those of us who have served for 
many years on this committee have listened to considerable testimony 
from people who have undergone the same experiences. We know tlie 
personal sacrifice that is the lot of those who do this work. You 
will be berated and vilified and anathematized by the comrades be- 
cause you have seen it as your patriotic duty to defend American 
institutions. That is the lot of anyone at any level of Government 
or private life, from housewife to J. Edgar Hoover, wlio undertakes 
to combat the Communist conspiracy. 

However, speaking on behalf of the committee, the committee 
staff, and your Congi-ess, I want to express our appreciation and say 
to you, as I did to Mrs. Miller yesterday, that second only to your 
service to your counti^y is your service to your own people, the Jewish 
people, who are frequently maligned in connection with their activities 
in the Communist Party. 

I think your act has been the act of a good American, and you leave 
the committee room with the best wishes of all of the members of the 
committee and, I am confident, the vast majority of the people in the 
hearing room. There may be a few exceptions, but I wouldn't worry 
about them. Thank you very much. 


Mrs. SiLVA. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Jackson. The Chair wishes to make a brief statement on the 
conc'hision of the current hearinos. 

Until such time as the testimony taken durino- the past three days 
can be evaluated and analyzed, the* subconunittee will not be in a posi- 
tion to set forth its general tindings nor possible recommendations to 
the full committee. Nonetheless, several general conclusions can be 
drawn from the testimony of the witnesses who have been heard to 
this time. 

It is apparent that the Communist operation nationally, as well as 
the local groupments, have undertaken a reassessment of their posi- 
tion and of the methods to be used in the future to achieve the ultimate 
goals of the Communist conspiracy. That the new emphasis on cer- 
tain phases of Communist tactics has unquestionably caused dispute 
and dissension in the ranks of party workers and adherents, resig- 
nations from the Communist Party, as such, should not be interpreted 
as mass defection from Connnunist principles. The main stream of 
Communist doctrine is in no manner influenced by minor eddies and 
whirlpools along its edges, and the entire body of philosophy continues 
to move toward a world sea. of Red, in spite of occasional ebb and 
flow in the tidal basins of Marxian philosophy. 

Communists are not only dedicated fanatics, but they have per- 
fected their techniques of confusion and frustration to near perfec- 
tion. Those who have followed the course of the present hearings will 
recognize the continuing intransigeance of individual Communists, a 
characteristic which has marked the movement since its inception. 
Direction, tactics, techniques, and personalities may change, but the 
basic tenets of the movement remain innnutable and dangerous to free 
governments and individual liberty under law. 

The testimony of those witnesses who have disclosed to the sub- 
connnittee facts within their own knowledge concerning the operations 
of Communists, have added materially to the general knowledge 
possessed by the American public of the operations of the Communist 
movement in this country. The connnittee expresses its appreciation 
and that of the Congress to these witnesses. It expresses the hope 
that others who availed themselves of their constitutional privileges 
not to testify will, in the months or the years ahead, reassess their 
positions and come to a more complete recognition of what most 
Americans consider to be their own responsibilities as American citi- 
zens to a nation which has assumed world leadership against political, 
economic, and military aggression. So long as the world continues to 
witness Communist aggression on the move in Tibet, North Viet Nam, 
and on the frontiers of India, we must continue our eternal vigilance, 
to insure that our own institutions and those of other free men are not 
i-endered defenseless by the machinations of the conspiracy. 

The printed testimony of the ])resent hearings will be available on 
request from the House Committee on Un-American Activities within 
the next several weeks. Those desiring copies should address their 
request to the House Committee on Un-American Activities, House 
Office Building, Washington 25, D.C. 

The subcommittee wishes especially to express its appreciation to 
the press, the radio, and television, who have given coverage to the 
hearings; to the U.S. Marshal and to the deputy marshals who have 


bi't'ii assijLi-iied to tlie lieariiiiL;," room; to the Slu'rill' and the dopul ies of 
tlie TjOS Aiiavh's County Slierilf's Odice; to (lie Chief of Police of Los 
Aufjeles and to tlie Chief of Police and the l*olice Department of the 
City of Santa Monica; to the Superintendent, of J)nildin<rs and to 
other P^ederal, State, and local agen("ies which have made it possible to 
conduct these hearintjs; and to the audience which has cooperated with 
the committee. 

We want esi)ecially to ex[)ress oiu- a|)preciat ion to Chief .lud<i'e 
Peii-son Hall and to the members of his staff for their fine cooperation 
and for making- available the Judjs^e's chambers for the use of the com- 
mittee and the staff. 

The connnittee recoo-nizes that the (piality of its work and the effec- 
tiveness of its recommendations through the House of liepresenta- 
tives must be founded upon the careful and intelligent performance 
of duties by membei's of its own staff. The subcommittee commends 
the diligence and conscientious preliminary investigations conducted 
by William Wheeler, staff investigator; Donald Appell, special inves- 
tigator assigned to these hearings; Mrs. William Wheeler; and Miss 
Patricia Donnelly. 

The subconnnittee also extends its appreciation to Mr. Frank Taven- 
ner, committee comisel. 

Those persons desiring to communicate any factual information re- 
garding subversive activities within the Southern California area are 
encouraged to connnunicate those facts to the Federal Bureau of In- 
vestigation or to the House Committee on Un-American Activities in 
Washington, D.C. 

The hearings are adjourned. 

(Whereui)on, at 4:45 p.m., Thursday, October 22, 1959, the hear- 
ings in the above-entitled matter were closed.) 




Alexander. Ed V2'>1 

Allen, Adele (Mrs. Booker Van Allen: aka Van Allen) 1ir>2, 

1162,1168-1170 (testimony) 

Allen, Booker Van (also known as Van Allen) 1152 

Anatole, Morris 1271, 1280 

Avers, Aaron . llHl 

Avers, Gertrude (Mrs. Aaron Avers) 1151 

Ayeroff, Jack 1275 


Baskin, Jack 1213 

Baskin, Virginia (Mrs. Jack Baskin) 1213 

Bessie, Daniel 1127-113;! (testimony) 

Black, Henry 127!) 

Blankfort, Sylvia 12(>S, 1271 

Blumenkranz, Bob. (See Brent, Robert Dnff. ) 
Blumenkranz, Harriet. {See Brent, Harriet.) 
Blumenkranz, Walter Duff. (See Brent, Robert Duff.) 

Booth, Marlowe 1151 

Bouslog, Harriet 12(55 

Bovingdon, John 1266, 1270 

Boviugdon, Marva (Mrs. John Bovingdon) 1266,1270 

Bowers, Henrietta 1151 

Bowers, Noah . 1151 

Brent, Harriet (nee Rappaport ; Mrs. Robert Duff Brent) 1151, 

1167. 1172. 1174-1177 (testimony) 

Brent, Roliert Duff ( born Walter Duff Blumenkranz) 1151. 

1171-1174 (te.stimony) , 1176, Merle 1141, 1142, 1148, 1155 

P>rodsky. Se.vmour 1148 

Browder, Ear! 1121 

Brown. Susan 1150 

Burrell, O. E 1147 

Burstein, James (Jack) 1152. 1187, 126.3-1264 (testimony) 

Carlisle, Harry 1202 

Carufo, Jessie 1271 

Ceis, Philip 1160 

Chan, Silan 1270 

Chernin, Rose. ( See Kusnitz, Rose. ) 

Clark, Joseph 1121, 1235 

Clinger, Moiselle (J.) 1133-1155 (testimony). 

1165. 1166-1169, 1173. 1176, 1177. 1181 

Cohen, Aaron K 112.5-1127 (testimony) 

Cohen, Daniel Francis 1118-1124 (testimony) 

Cohen, Kalman 1125, 1126 

Connelly, Dorothy Healey. {See Healey, Dorothy Ray.) 

Cormack, Charles 1151 

Cormack, Teresa (Mrs. Charles Cormack) 1151 


D ragp 

Di Maria, Samuel 118:^.1184 

Doraii. Lillian 1198, 1202 

Drnmmoud, Elaine 1141, 1142, 1148-1150, 1153 

Driimmond, Gilbert (Gil) 1141,1142,1147,1149,1150,1166-1167 (testimony) 

Dulles, John Foster 1121 


Ellis, Charles 1151 

Ellis, Shirley (Mrs. Charles Ellis) 1151 

Epstein, Pauline 1201 

Erger, Liz 1193 

Evanston, Sylvia 1274 


Fargo 1271 

Farol 1279 

Fenster, Leo 1118, 1127, 1162 

Fleishman, Stanlev 1201 

Fletcher, Elizabeth 1148, 1150, 1151 

Flier, Jack 1274, 1275 

Fogg. Adaline 1151 

Forest, Dorothv 1213 

Foster, William Z 1120-1122 

Frankel. J. Allan 1201 

Frankel. Seymour 1201 

Freed, Emil 1268 

Friedman. Joe 1193. 1195 


Gates, John 1120-1122, 1235 

Geiselman, Lucia. (Sec Kres, Lucia.) 

Geiselman, Paul. Jr 1182-1187 (testimony) 

Geiselman, Paul. Sr 1184.1185 

Gilbert, Pauline 1142 

Goldberg. Murray (Julius) 1149, 1150, 1162-1165 (testimony) 

Goldberg, Terry (Mrs. Murray Goldberg) 1149, 1150 

Goldner, Sanford 1266. 1267, 1274, 1279 

Goodman, Morris 1192, 1196 

Gordon, Mary 11.36. 1140. 1144. 1145 

Gray, William P 1155 

Greenberg, Ruth 1280 


Hall. Gus 1133 

Hall, Jack 1265. 1267 

Hall, Peirson (M.) 1283 

Hall, Ralph (also known as Carl Swanson)___ 1158-1162 (testimony), 1177, 1188 

Halpern, Bessie 1270 

Hartle, Barbara 11,58, 1151) 

Hay, Harry 1278, 1279 

Hay, Mrs. Harry 1279 

Healey. Dorothy Ray (Mrs. Philip Connelly; nee Rosenblum; also known 

as Dorothy Ray) 1116, 1122, 1126. 1128, 1169. 1105. 111)8, 1221, 1222. 1251 

Hecht, Minnie 1195 

Hicks, Julian 1266, 1207. 1279 

Hitchcock. G. P 1251 

Hoover, J. Edgar 1281 

Huff. Henry 115!) 

Hyer, Irene 1271 

Hyun, David 1199, 1202 

H.vun. Peter 1199,1202, 1204 


K l'"*-'*" 

Kagaii, Milton UTy-llM (te.stiiuony) 

Kenny, Robert (W.) l^^'^ 

Kensintfer, Adele l-iGb 

Kessler, Mike ll^'^ 

Kievits, Elsa H'^^ 

Konove. Milton 1268,1271,1272, 1274-1270,1280 

Kranen, John F 1186, 1187-118!> (testimony) 

Kres, Lucia (nee Geiseliuan) 1183,1185 

Krupin, Nathan H'^-'^ 

Knsnitz, Rose (nee Chernin) 111)8, 1191), 1202, 1205 


Lebow, Jerome 1195 

Lebow, Phyllis 1195-1197, 1214-1219 (testimony) 

Lewis, Walter K 1120 

Lindesmith. Rosalind 1149 

Linn, Morris 1274, 1275 

Lipton, Lawrence 1145, 1152 

Ludel, Lennie 1151 


Maas, Eleanor (Mrs. AVilliam L. Maas ; nee Argula) 1219- 

1221 (testimony). 1228-1225 (testimony) 

Mahaney, Wilbur Lee 1184, 1185 

Major, Sylvia 1275-1277 

Margolis, Benjamin (Ben) 1158, 1187, 1250 

Marshall, Rose 1270, 1278, 1279 

McGowan, James George 1250-1253 (testimony) 

McGowan, Jim 1151 

McGowan, Lucille (Mrs. Jim McGowan) 1151 

McLaughlin, Bill 1151 

McLaughlin, Goldie (Mrs. Bill McLaughlin) 1151 

McTernan, Anne Perpicli 1202 

McTernan, Francis J 1219, 1223 

Metzger, Robert 1275 

Miller, Marion (Mrs. Paul Miller) _ 1189-1214 (testimony), 1215, 1227, 1228, 1281 

Miller, Paul 1190, 1192, 1193, 1200, 1213 

Mitchell, Hart 1142 

Morley, Hank 1267 


Norton, William Wallace, Jr 1253-1260 (testimony) 


Offer, Ruth 1271 

Olson, Ben. (See Olson, John Bennett.) 

Olson, Dorothy (Mrs. John Bennett Olson; also known as Mrs. Ben 

Olson) 1151 

Olson, John Bennett (also known as Ben Olson) 1145. 1151 

Ornitz, Donald 1221-1223 (testimony) 

Perpich, Anne. (See McTernan, Anne Perpich.) 

Pestana, Frank 1174 

Porter, John 1201 

Poulson, Harper (W.) 1147. 1149, 1229-1250 (testimony) 


Reinecke (John E.) 1266 

Rice, Craig 1145 

Richards, Silvia 1145, 1151 

Rinaldo, Ben 12(38-1270 

Rinaldo, Penny 1268, 1270 



Kipps, Lillian 120U. 1266, 1267, 1274, 1278, 1279 

Rivers, Les 1146 

Rosenberg, Ethel 1154 

Rosenberg, Julius 1154 

Rosenberg, Rose S. (Mrs. Sol Rosenberg) 1125, 

1151, 1171, 1177, 1179, 1181, 1182, 1201, 1261 

Rosenberg, Sol 1151 

Rubin. William 1155-1157 (testinioiiy) 

Kykoff. Richard 1201 


Samuels, William 1201 

Sanford. Charles 1251 

Sehaek, David 1195 

Schack, Nora 1195 

Scharf, Ron 1151 

Scharf. Mrs. Ron 1151 

Schoiehet. Nathan L 1221 

Schulberg, Budd 1146 

Schwartz, Harry 1121 

Selsani, Howard 1273, 1274 

Shafran, Eva 1136 

Shandler, Esther 1201 

Silva, Adele Kronick 1264-1281 (testimony) 

Sink. Mark Eugene 1261-1263 (testimony) 

Slade, Ruth 1271 

Smith, Delphine Miu-phy 1191,1192,1198,1202 

Sniderman, Ellaine (Mrs. Joe Sniderman) 1150,1151 

Sniderman, Joe 1150,1151,1181-1182 (testimony) 

Sproul, Jean Riibin 1142 

Strack. Celeste 1266, 1267 

Swanson, Carl. {See Hall, Ralph.) 

Sylvia, Mrs 1276 

Symonds, Myer 1265 


Tannenbauni. Jerry 1152 

Taylor, William 1279, 1280 

Tenner, Jack 1201 

Timofeyev, T 1121 

Titleman, Elaine 1142 

Tobey, Berkelev 1151 

Truman (Harry S.) 1257,1258 


\au Alien. (Kcc Allen, Booker Van.) 


AVeinberg, Deborah 1271 

Welanko (Abraham) 1279 

Wells, Lona 1152, 1177-1179 (testimony) 

AVhite, Carl F 1182 

Wilby, Celia 1142, 1146 

Wildman. Leonard 1160 

AVilkinson, Frank 1204 

AVirin, A. L 1168, 1214, 1227-1228 (statement), 1229, 1253, 1263 


Yanez, Josephine 1202 

Young, Bill 1148 


Organization 8 

A Pagft 

American Civil Liberties Union 1210, 1211, 1227, 1228 

Southern California 1228 

American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 1189, 120.'J 

American Peace Crusade, Southern California Peace Crusade 12(>4 

Arts, Sciences and Professions Council. {See National Council of the Arts, 
Sciences, and Professions.) 


B'nai B'rith 1196 

Brentwood Club 1213 

California Emergency Defense Committee 1134, 1189, 1204 

California Labor School 1135, 1266, 1267, 1270, 1271, 1273, 1274, 1277-1280 

School of Jewish Studies 1267 

Central Labor Council, Santa Monica 1148 

Citizens Committee to Preserve American Freedoms 1203, 1204 

Civil Rights Congress (Los Angeles) 1191, 1204, 1260 

Committee To Secure Justice in the Rosenberg Case. {See entry under 
National Committee To Secure Justice in the Rosenberg Case, Los An- 
geles. ) 

Communist Party, Hawaii 1265, 1266 

Communist Party, Soviet Union 1121 

Communist Party, USA : 
National structure : 

National Committee 1123 

Sixteenth National Convention, February ^12, 1957, New York 

City 1119-1122, 1130 

District organization : 

Southern California District. 1116, 1122, 1126. 1221, 1231, 12.n. 1257, 1261 
Bay Cities Section. {See Western Section.) 

Convention, April 13-14, 1957, Los Angeles 1126, 1128 

District Council 1119, 1127, 1185, 1221, 1231 

Western Section (also known as Bay Cities Section) 1115. 

1116, 1126, 1127, 1133, 1156, 1163 

Educational Committee 1181 

Labor Club 1180 

Santa Monica Club 1174, 1261 

Venice Club (Venice. Calif.) 1160, 1177, 1188. 12.")9, 1260 

State organization : 
California : 

Fresno County 1252 

Harbor Section 1252 

Kings County 1252 

Los Angeles County : 

County Convention, January 5-6, 1957, Los Angeles 1128, 

1167, 1188 

Eva ShafranClub 1274 

Santa Monica, Cell Within Douglas Aircraft Co 1137, 

1138, 1140 

Theodore Dreiser Club 1268-1271,1273 

Western Division 1177, 1188 

Executive Committee 1185 

Mar Vista Club 1193-1195 

Sixteenth Congressional District, Venice Club 1252. 

1259. 1260 

West Los Angeles Club 1194, 1195 

Westside Section 1271 

Tulare County 1252 

New York State 1121 

Bronx Section 1188 

Washington State 1158 

Congress of Industrial Organizations 1137, 1138 

Congress of Jewish Women 1271, 1275, 1277 


Democratic Party, Los Angeles, Calif IIJJ- 1144 

Douglas Aircraft Co 1134,1137-114- 

Fund for the Repiiblic ^~^l 


Hadassah (Los Angeles Chapter) 1271, 1276, 1277 

Hawaiian Civil Liberties Committee ^-^^ 


lndei>endent Progressive Party 1144, lir.4, 1166, 1271 

Central Committee —- j^^'' |f '^ 

International Association of Machinists (lAM) 113 '. n^.s, ii4rf 


.Jefferson School of Social Science 1273, 1279, 1280 

Jewish Peoples Fraternal Order ^'-'"' |^';^ 

Jewish War Veterans of the United States -^-'-^ 


Labor Youth League : .- — T"777w7T7 ^oa- 

Longshoremen's and Warehousemen's Union. International (ILWU) Ubo 

LOS Angeles Committee for P-^ection oi^For^ 

' I'^O"' 

Steering Committee -" ~ 

Los Angeles Committee To Secure Justice in the Rosenberg Case. (>c<> 
entry under National Committee To Secure Justice in the Rosenberg 

Lo?Angeles Sobell Committee. (.Set- entry under National Committee To 
Secure Justice for Morton Sobell in the Rosenberg Case.) 

National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, Santa 





Los Angeles Sobell Committee — -,----- 

National Committee To Secure Justice in the Rosenberg ( ase . 

Los Angeles Committee To Secure Justice in the Rosenberg Case 1204 

Xaticmal Council of Jewish Women V-tI-V" --""^^nHirn Cnli 

National Coiuicil of the Arts, Sciences, and Professions, feouthein Cah_ ^^^^ 

fornia Chapter ~ - , - 


Pioneer Women's Organization H-^O, 1212, 1213, 1280 

political Prisoners Welfare Committee- _-—-— ^-"* 

Progressive Book Shop (or Book Store) (Los Angeles) ll.>^, 1-6^ 

Progressive Youth League, Los Angeles County -^^-^^ 



San Francisco State College I~~~,^~r-V~~~~~T'^^~rr. 

School of Jewish Studies, California, {tiec entry under California Labor 

Southern ^California Peace Crusade. {See entry under American Peace 
Crusade. ) 

Thomas Jefferson Bookshop 1143, 1144 

Tom Paine School of Social Science (Philadelphia) li»4 


riiiversity of California at Los Anyoles 1-'"'l 


West Side Committee Against Kenaziticatiou uf (Jeniiany (Los Angeles, 

(!alif.)__ - 1-'<1. 1^"^- 1-"' 


Younj? Commimist League. ("alif(»rnia 1--'1 

('(mvention, First Annual State, Nov. .V7, 15>37, Los Angeles 12.)1 

Young Women's Christian Association (YWCA) (Los Angeles) 319<> 


Daily People's World 1244, 1247, 1248, 12U<.», 1277 

Washington State H^JO 

Daily Worker 1121, 1235 

Korean Independent 11^^''' 

New Frontiers 1251 

Partiuaya Zhizn 1121 

Sovetskaya Rossiya 1121 



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