15
Regional Oral History Office University of California
The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California
CALIFORNIA JEWISH COMMUNITY ORAL HISTORY SERIES
Alfred Fromm
WINES, MUSIC, AND LIFELONG EDUCATION
With an Introduction by
Rabbi Brian Lurie
Interviews Conducted by
Elaine Dorfman and Caroline Crawford
in 1986 and 1987
And Including Interviews by
Ruth Teiser Conducted in 1984
Copyright (?) 1988 by The Regents of the University of California
and the Trustees of the Judah L. Magnes Memorial Museum
Since 1954 the Regional Oral History Office has been interviewing
leading participants in or well -placed witnesses to major events in the
development of Northern California, the West, and the Nation. Oral
history is a modern research technique involving an interviewee and an
informed interviewer in spontaneous conversation. The taped record is
transcribed, lightly edited for continuity and clarity, and reviewed by
the interviewee. The resulting manuscript is typed in final form,
indexed, bound with photographs and illustrative materials, and placed in
The Bancroft Library at the University of California, Berkeley and other
research collections for scholarly use. Because it is primary material,
oral history is not intended to present the final, verified, or complete
narrative of events. It is a spoken account, offered by the interviewee
in response to questioning, and as such it is reflective, partisan,
deeply involved, and irreplaceable.
********************************
All uses of this manuscript are covered by a legal
agreement between the University of California and
Alfred Fromm dated 26 March 1986. The manuscript
is thereby made available for research purposes. All
literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to
publish, are reserved to The Bancroft Library of the
University of California, Berkeley and the Judah L. Magnes
Memorial Museum. No part of the manuscript may be quoted
for publication without the written permission of the
Director of The Bancroft Library of the University of
California, Berkeley.
Request for permission to quote for publication should
be addressed to the Regional Oral History Office, 486
Library, University of California, Berkeley 94720, and
should include identification of the specific passages to be
quoted, anticipated use of the passages, and identification
of the user. The legal agreement with Alfred Fromm requires
that he be notified of the request and allowed thirty days
in which to respond.
It is recommended that this oral history be cited as
follows:
Alfred Fromm, "Wines, Music, and Lifelong
Education," an oral history conducted in
1986 and 1987 by Elaine Dorfman and
Caroline Crawford, including interviews by
Ruth Teiser conducted in 1984, Regional
Oral History Office, The Bancroft Library,
University of California, Berkeley, 1988.
Copy no.
i
ALFRED FROMM
1980
-•-_..-• . • ... .• .-,,- . .
Jewish Bulletin
7/10/98
. • . •• . : .
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Wine pioneer
"* -..-!• -^ ,- ** Tf.jY ^*.*.L>*J" • > '
LESUEKATZ
Bulletin c**rf*v ':4£-sJ**»*W«j <~
v
^ ^ In .California, he foundea;Fromm and Sichel Inc;
"which as worldwide distributors of Christian Broth-
As a young man, Alfred Fromm helped bring 37
family members from Nazi Germany to safety in the
United States. Fifty years later, the internationally
known wine industry leader was a major donor to
the campaign to help resettle Jews from the former
Soviet Union in Israel. /. -v-^X ;-J
"He saved a lot of Jewish lives, personally, as well as
in a collective way? said his son-in-law Rabbi Brian
Lurie." " :•.'- l&'i&fi^':?'. . ',:, .-.,••-• :.'\,
The dedicated philanthropist, who made both
Christian Brothers and Paul Masson wineries house
hold names, died at his San Francisco home July 2.
He was 93.
But San Francisco may
remember Fromm best for
founding, together with his
wife Hanna, the Fromm
Institute for Lifelong Learn
ing at the University of San
Francisco. The program of
daytime university courses
engages emeritus professors
to teach retired people over
age 50 and now has a student
body of more than 950.
* -. •• - •-..-•'•-' .• .
For establishing the
school, the .Frpnuns were
granted an Honorary degree
of doctor of public service by
USF Jn lS>74That year, they
'established a USF sister pro-'
gram, the Fromm Institute, at .
the Hebrew University. , Vi
i "He was truly committed to Israel," Lurie
Born in 1905 in Kitzingen, Bavaria, Fromm was
the fourth generation of a family of vintners. He got
-involved in the business as a teenager/After a three-
ers wine and brandy, became one of A merica s largest
distributors of fine wines. "/>r/ ; f
While deeply involved in the wine industry, he
found time to dedicate himself to numerous charita
ble and civic causes. Among many involvements, he
served as director of the San Francisco Opera Asso
ciation and as a trustee of the San Francisco Conser
vatory of Music. & .".^L*Xf% i'-:-:. •-'--
He founded thefWine Museum of San Francisco,
co-founded the Jewish Museum San Francisco and
was an ardent supporter of the Judah L. Magnes
Museum in Berkeley. •
"He had a particular interest in Jewish art and cul
ture," Lurie said. "He would
say 'man 'does not live by
bread alone: Art and culture
makes one's life richer, better.'"
A member of Congregation
asEmanurEl in San Francisco, he
_also served on the board of
• the Jewish National Fund. '
"He was just a truly won
derful, great man," Lurie said.
"What he. did, for anyone who
came to^see; him -was make
them feel important, worthy.
You. left his presence feeling
-• Fromm, -in his autobiogra
phy, -wrote that.] three things
were important to incorporate
Alfred Fromm : mto daily life: "the importance
IW*J nwin !••,--. 4 - ' • ; ,' - . . . . - . -,T- -' - * - ..
,K«^.pf , learning, strong family
JSJ bonds and charity." /•i. :
y his owhimeasure;Alfred^Tprranilei just ^uch
a good life," said 'Robert Fordham, director of the
Frdmm Institute. ^He _embodied those precepts he"
espoused."
year apprenticeship, he joined his family's firm, N.ty'y^Fromm is.survivw by bis wife'and two children,
Fromm, and by 1930 was then- export manager, trav- David Fromm and Caroline Fromm-Lurie. He is also
eling abroad extensively for the sale of -the firm's survived by fivet grandchildren ^-and, three great-
Iwine. : '*•_ *'•- grandchildren; ?^ .J;7-^^
A private memorial service'fof Frbrrim was held
Sunday. The family asks that contributions be made
J In 1936, he married Hanna Grue'ribaurh; ahticipat-
• ; ing a conventional life and career. As the politics of
Germany changed, however, so did Fromm's Ufe.The
couple moved to;this country and found backers to
to the Fromm Institute of Lifelong Learning, Univer
sity of San Frahcisco, 2130 Fulton St., S.F., CA 941 17,
help thtrestof the family immigrate here. or the charity of one's choice. ^,;
•., ^-j-^t^^^,^. ^<t.^^.ntr,--ar->-.^->3 • - .- : ' . *>oriv-v. '• /- ' :.'•-.
>
S.F. wine
merchant
Alfred
Fromm
EXAMMEH STAFF REPORT
Alfred Fromm, a prominent
wine merchant and philanthropist
who founded the Fromm Institute
for Lifelong Learning at the Uni
versity of San Francisco, died at
his San Francisco home last
Thursday. He was 93.
Mr. Fromm was born in Kitzin-
gen, Bavaria, in 1905, into the
fourth generation of a family of
vintners. As a young man, he ap
prenticed with
the family firm,
N. Fromm, and
by 1930 was the
company's ex
port manager,
traveling abroad
to sell the fami
ly's wine.
In 1936 he
married Hanna
Gruenbaum. Alfred Fromm
That same year,
the couple fled to the United States
to escape Nazi persecution in Ger
many.
The Fromms settled in San
Francisco, and he founded Fromm
& Sichel, Inc., which grew into one
of this country's largest wine dis
tributors, carrying Christian
Brothers wine and brandy, among
other labels.
San Francisco Examiner
July 7, 1998
As his business became success
ful, Mr. Fromm devoted himself
increasingly to cultural and chari
table work in the San Francisco
Bay Area, focusing especially on
education, Jewish causes and mu
sic and art
In 1976, the Fromms provided
the funding to establish the
Fromm Institute for Lifelong
Learning at USF. The program,
taught by emeritus professors, of
fers university courses to retired
people regardless of their educa
tional background or financial sta
tus. In 1979, the couple set up a
sister program, the Fromm Insti
tute at the Hebrew University of
Jerusalem.
Over the past several decades,
Mr. Fromm had served as a direc
tor of the San Francisco Opera
Association, a trustee of the San
Francisco Conservatory of Musk
and a founder of the Wine Museum
of San Francisco. He was a gover
nor of the Jewish National Fund, a
co-founder of the San Francisco
Jewish Community Museum and a
supporter of the Judah Magnes
Museum in Berkeley.
Mr. Fromm was appointed a re
gent at St Mary's College in Mora-
ga, where he was awarded an hon
orary doctor of humane letters. He
established scholarships at Bran-
deis University and Hastings Col
lege of Law, and served on the
Advisory Board of S f. State. He
was a director of the Gleeson Li
brary Association at USF and in
1979 received an honorary Doctor
of Public Service from that univer
sity.
In addition to his wife, Mr.
Fromm is survived by his son, Da
vid; a daughter, Caroline Fromm-
Lurie; and several grandchildren
and great-grandchildren.
Private services were held Sun
day, and a memorial is planned for
a later date.
Memorial contributions may be
made to the Fromm Institute for
Lifelong Learning or any other
charity.
San Francisco Chronicle
July 7, 1998
c L : • A memorial service is planned
for Alfred Fromm, a philanthro
pist who was one of the pioneers of
the modern California wine indus
try. Mr. Fromm died at his San
Francisco home Thursday at the
ageof 93.
• -
•; -
»
Mr. Fromm had three careers
in his long life: He was a winemak-
er from a German Jewish family of
distinguished vintners; he was a
master of wine market ing who
helped put California wines on the
map; and he and his wife, Hanna,
gave a fortune to educational and
cultural organizations.
His philosophy was contained
in his autobiography. He believed,
he wrote, in "the importance of
learning, strong family bonds and
charity."
He was a founder of the
Fromm Institute for Lifelong
Learning at the University of San
Francisco, which uses emeritus
professors to teach courses de
signed for persons over the age of
50. The Fromm Institute, which he
set up in 1976, now has more than
1,000 students.
Mr. Fromm was born in Kitzin-
gen, Germany, hi 1905, into a fami
ly of vintners. He left school at 15
to apprentice in the wine business
and by 1930 was export manager
for N. Fromm, the family's 200-
year-old firm.
Mr. Fromm married Hanna
Gruenbaum in 1936 and left Nazi
Germany for the United States.
Eventually, he was able to bring
his relatives to America. "I am hap
py here," he said later. "This coun
try has been good to me."
.
He saw the possibilities for the
domestic wine business when oth
ers did not "When I first came to
this country," he said later, "wine
. . . was considered a sissy drink by
people who consumed rotgut whis-
, *y" e • •- I- taoftsif&T ;..
He made a careful study of the
Sonoma and Napa valleys and be-
came convinced that premium
wines equal to those in Europe
could be produced hi California.
He and some partners obtained
worldwide sales rights to Napa
Valley wines produced by the
Brothers of the Christian Schools,
With Franz Sichel, his late part
ner, he turned the small, strug
gling Christian Brothers wine into
a major brand, and in the process
helped develop the market for
good wine among middle-class
American families. "I have been a
missionary in that sense," he said.
It was more than just a business
to him. He drank half a bottle at
dinner every night "Wine is my
medicine," he said, "a better and
more relaxing medicine."
He marketed Paul Masson
wines, and set up the Masson Music
in the Vineyards program in Sara
toga hi the 1950s.
He also founded a wine muse
um at Hyde and Beach Streets
which flourished for many years.
He was interested in education as
well. The success of Christian
Brothers wine was a windfall for
St Mary's College in Moraga,
which is operated by the Christian
Brothers. Mr. Fromm helped the
school with its academic programs
and was a member of its board of
regents.
Mr. Fromm retired as chair
man of the board of Fromm and
Sichel in 1978. Eventually, the
- Christian Brothers wine brand was
sold, most recently to Heublein,
Inc., which closed its St. Helena
wmeryml993.^ rV .,;,
Mr. Fromm' was more active
than evetin retirement He was a
, director of the San Francisco
' Opera Association, a trustee of the
San Francisco Conservatory of Mu
sic, governor of the Jewish Nation
al Fund, and a co-founder of the
Con HVon/»io/v\ TanrieK fnmmffni+tr
Museum and chairman of its board
of trustees.
In all these roles, he urged oth
ers to give to charities. When he
asked others for help, he told, them
giving "will do your heart good."
According to Robert Fordham, di
rector of the Fromm Institute, it
was one of his favorite expres
sions.
Mr. Fromm is survived by his
wife, his son, Dr. David Fromm,
chief of surgery at Wayne State
University hi Ohio, his daughter,
Caroline Fromm Lurie of Ross, a
psychotherapist, and five grand
children.
Private services were held on
Sunday. Memorial contributions
may be made to the Fromm Insti
tute for lifelong Learning, Uni
versity of San Francisco, San Fran-
cisco, 94117. ;;C,,.,* .••:*«::>-
:i-r -,.:.-.- ':y;
"v
TABLE OF CONTENTS - - Alfred Fromm
PREFACE
INTRODUCTION by Rabbi Brian Lurie
INTERVIEW HISTORY lv
BRIEF BIOGRAPHY
INTERVIEWS WITH ALFRED FROMM
PART ONE: WINE, MUSIC & LIFELONG EDUCATION
I FAMILY ORIGIN IN GERMANY
German Jews ^
Anti-Semitism
The Max Fromm Family
The Role of Religion
Mother
Brothers and Sisters 6
Childhood
Parents' Expectations and Values
Added Reflections on Background and Family
Advice From Rabbi Stephen Wise
II LEAVING GERMANY PERMANENTLY, 1936
Marriage to Hanna Gruenbaum
Life in New York City 22
Living in San Francisco
III THE FROMM INSTITUTE FOR LIFELONG LEARNING, UNIVERSITY OF SAN
FRANCISCO, 1975
Plan and Design; Hanna Fromm
The Future; Increased Education of Older Adults
The Koret Living Library
IV THE FROMM INSTITUTE FOR LIFELONG LEARNING, MARTIN BUBER INSTITUTE,
HEBREW UNIVERSITY, JERUSALEM, ISRAEL, 1985
Comparison to San Francisco Program
V CULTURAL CONTRIBUTIONS
Judah Magnes Memorial Museum, Berkeley
San Francisco Jewish Community Museum
Founding
First Exhibit: "Fifty Treasures"
Difficulties
Exhibit: "The Jews of Germany"
"The Jews of Kaifeng, China" ^
Criteria in Accepting Gifts
Sukkah Competition
Personal Interest in Art 52
VI RELATIONSHIP TO ISRAEL 54
Reorganizing Israeli Wine Exports 54
VII ORGANIZATIONS, ACTIVITIES, AND RELATIONSHIPS 57
National United Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society Council 57
Jewish National Fund 59
American Technion Society 64
The Alfred and Hanna Fromm Scholarship Fund; Brandeis
University, 1975 65
Alfred and Hanna Fromm Professorship, Hastings College of Law,
University of California, San Francisco 65
VIII THE BANK OF AMERICA; AN EARLY AND CONTINUING RELATIONSHIP 68
IX WINE MARKETING CENTER, UNIVERSITY OF SAN FRANCISCO 71
Planning with Dr. Su Hua Newton 71
Program Changes 75
The Future 76
X MORE ABOUT ACTIVITIES AND CONTRIBUTIONS 78
Samuel Bronfman and the Seagram Company 79
A Valued Business and Personal Relationship 79
The Wine Museum, San Francisco; Now the Seagram Museum,
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada 83
More About the Wine Business 84
XI ORGANIZATIONAL CONTRIBUTIONS AND AWARDS 85
California Medical Clinic for Psychotherapy; Vice Chairman 85
St. Mary's College; Board of Regents 86
Founding Member of the President's Club 87
Honorary Alumnus, 1981; Honorary Doctor of Humane Letters,
May 1974 88
Music in the Vineyards; Co-Founder 89
Norman Fromm, Founder; San Francisco Chamber Music Society 91
Paul Fromm, Founder; Fromm Music Foundation, Harvard
University 92
San Francisco Conservatory of Music; Board of Trustees 93
San Francisco Opera Association; Board of Directors 94
Awards 9 5
Jefferson Award for Community Service; The American Institute
of Public Service 97
Wine Spectator: First Annual Distinguished Service Award 97
Hebrew University; Torch of Learning 98
Share Zedek Hospital, Israel; Founders' Stone Trophy 98
Brandeis University Distinguished Community Service Award 98
A Key to the City from Mayor Joseph Alioto, 1974 99
Memories of Kurt Adler, General Director, San Francisco Opera 99
XII REFLECTIONS ON BUSINESS
An Important Business Experience in 1942
Lengthy Partnership with Franz Sichel
Changes
The Future
Recognition of Social Change by Business
Expertise
On Contributions of Women
Preparation for Successful Volunteerism
XIII PERSONAL PHILOSOPHY
Concluding Thoughts After Last Interview
101
101
105
106
106
108
108
109
110
114
115a
INTERVIEW WITH HANNA GRUENBAUM FROMM
BRIEF BIOGRAPHY
XIV HANNA GRUENBAUM FROMM
Childhood in Germany
Religion in the Family
Impact of Father's Death
XV LEAVING GERMANY FOR ENGLAND AND PARIS, 1932
Life and Work in Paris
A Frightening Episode in Germany, 1933
Engagement to Alfred Fromm
Life and Work in Palestine, 1935
Marriage in Trieste, Prague, and New York
XVI ESSENTIAL VOLUNTEER WORK IN THE UNITED STATES, 1939-1945
Resettling Relatives Who Fled Germany
Red Cross Driver and Instructor, World War II
XXVII FROMM INSTITUTE FOR LIFELONG LEARNING; DESIGN AND DEVELOPMENT
Limitations
Fund Raising
Skilled Listening
More About Funding
Honorary Doctor of Public Service, University of
San Francisco, May 1979
The Future
XVIII MUSIC IN THE VINEYARDS
Conductors and Artists; Friends and Guests
Kurt Adler
William Steinberg
XIX PERSONAL REFLECTIONS AND FAMILY
Children and Grandchildren
Alfred Fromm
116
116
117
117
117
118
119
119
121
122
123
124
126
126
128
130
134
135
136
136
138
140
143
144
145
INTERVIEW WITH ALFRED FROMM ON MUSIC 149
INTERVIEW HISTORY 149
XX ALFRED FROMM AND THE SAN FRANCISCO OPERA 150
A Longstanding Friendship: The Fromms and the Adlers 150
Kurt Adler as Impresario 151
Opera in San Francisco: Fund-Raising 153
Serving on the Opera Board of Directors 155
Dealing with the Unions 157
Donors for the Future: "A Great Reservoir" 158
The Fromm Family and the Arts 159
The Adler Temperament and the Question of Retirement 160
The Adler Legacy 161
TAPE GUIDE 163
APPENDICES 164
A. "Hocks and Moselles, How They are Growing and Ripening."
House of Fromm, Germany. 165
B. "Deutscher Wein: Wie er wachst und reift," N. Fromm, Bingen am Rheim,
Germany. 174
C. Wine labels of N. Fromm, Germany, 1929 and 1932. 193
D. "Dean of Wine Tasters Sips For Three Hours Daily," San Francisco
Examiner. June 8, 1953. Article about Max Fromm. 194
E. Letter from Paul Fromm, October 20, 1986. 195
Brief Biography of Paul Fromm. 196
An Addition by Alfred Fromm about his brother, Paul Fromm. 198
Obituary of Paul Fromm, New York Times. July 6, 1987. 199
"New American Music: The Living Legacy of Paul Fromm."
Chicago Tribune. July 9, 1987. 200
F. Program of a concert honoring Herbert Fromm, January 30, 1977. 201
INDEX 203
PART TWO: MARKETING CALIFORNIA WINE AND BRANDY 207
•>
PREFACE
The California Jewish Community Series is a collection of oral history
interviews with persons who have contributed significantly to Jewish life and
to the wider secular community. Sponsored by the Western Jewish History
Center of the Judah L. Magnes Memorial Museum, the interviews have been
produced by the Regional Oral History Office of The Bancroft Library. Moses
Rischin, professor of history at California State University at San Francisco,
is advisor to the series, and Ruth Rafael is Archivist. Serving as an
advisory committee is the board of the Western Jewish History Center. Present
members are co- chairs Norman Coliver and Daniel E. Stone, and Seymour Fromer,
James D. Hart, Louis H. Heilbron, Rabbi Robert Kirschner, Elinor Mandelson,
Esther Reutlinger, Jacques Reutlinger, John Rothmann, Dana Shapiro, and Sue
Rayner Warburg.
The California Jewish Community Series was inaugurated in 1967. During
its first twenty years, former board members who served in an advisory
capacity included Harold Edelstein, Cissie Geballe, James M. Gerstley, Douglas
E. Goldman, Philip E. Lilienthal, Robert E. Sinton, Frank H. Sloss, Jacob H.
Voorsanger, and Alma Lavenson Wahrhaftig.
In the oral history process, the interviewer works closely with the
memoirist in preliminary research and in setting up topics for discussion.
The interviews are informal conversations which are tape recorded,
transcribed, edited by the interviewer for continuity and clarity, checked and
approved by the interviewee, and then final -typed. The resulting manuscripts,
indexed and bound, are deposited in the library of the Western Jewish History
Center, The Bancroft Library, and the University of California at Los Angeles.
By special arrangement copies may be deposited in other manuscript
repositories holding relevant collections.
The Regional Oral History Office was established to tape record
autobiographical interviews with persons prominent in recent California
history. The Office, headed by Willa K. Baum, is under the administrative
supervision of Professor James D. Hart, director of The Bancroft Library.
Seymour Fromer
Executive Director
The Magnes Museum
•
1 September 1988
Berkeley, California
ii
CALIFORNIA JEWISH COMMUNITY ORAL HISTORY SERIES
OF THE JUDAH L. MAGNES MEMORIAL MUSEUM
Koshland, Lucile Heming (Mrs. Daniel E., Sr.), Citizen Participation in
Government. 1970.
Rinder, Rose (Mrs. Reuben R.), Music. Prayer, and Religious Leadership:
Temple Emanu-El. 1913-1969. 1971.
Koshland, Daniel E. , Sr. , The Principle of Sharing. 1971.
Hilborn, Walter S., Reflections on Legal Practice and Jewish Community
Leadership: New York and Los Angeles. 1907-1973. 1974.
Magnin, Rabbi Edgar F. , Leader and Personality. 1975.
Fleishhacker, Mortimer, and Janet Choynski (Mrs. Mortimer), Family. Business.
and the San Francisco Community. 1975.
Haas, Walter A. , Sr. , Civic. Philanthropic, and Business Leadership. 1975
Haas, Elise Stern (Mrs. Walter, Sr.), The Appreciation of Quality. 1975.
Salz, Helen Arnstein (Mrs. Ansley) , Sketches of an Improbable Ninety Years.
1975.
Sinton, Edgar, Jewish and Community Service in San Francisco, a Family
Tradition. 1978.
Kuhn, Marshall H. , Marshall H. Kuhn: Catalyst and Teacher: San Francisco
Jewish and Community Leader. 1934-1978. 1978.
Hirsch, Marcel, The Responsibilities and Rewards of Involvement. 1981.
Koshland, Robert J., Volunteer Community Service in Health and Welfare. 1983.
Stone, Sylvia L. , Lifelong Volunteer in San Francisco. 1983.
Schnier, Jacques, A Sculptor's Odyssey. 1987.
Treguboff, Sanford M. , Administration of Jewish Philanthropy in San Francisco
1988.
Fromm, Alfred, Alfred Fromm: Wines. Music, and Lifelong Education. 1988.
Altman, Ludwig, A Musician's Journey Through Life. In process.
iii
INTRODUCTION by Rabbi Brian Lurie
My intimate knowledge of Alfred Fromm only goes back three and one -half
years. But my recollections are enriched by one who has known him almost
forty years -- his daughter and my wife, Caroline.
Few people are the same publicly and privately. How many men have been
admired publicly only to be castigated by a son or daughter or wife for
neglect, indifference and ill temper? Not Alfred Fromm. Always the gentleman,
considerate, unspoiled, kind to family and the world at large. This is how
Caroline described him when he was honored by the American Friends of Hebrew
University:
"The man who wrote children's stories for me when he
had to go out of town so that I wouldn't be without an
original bedtime story; or the man with whom I , as a
child, rode all over San Francisco on a bus just to
have the pleasure of speaking our own private
gobbledygook in front of strangers; or the man who for
hours helped me with my English essays when piles of
his own work awaited him; or the man who always,
always encouraged imagination mixed with reason,
laughter with seriousness, adventure someness with
practicality, generosity of spirit toward others with
a degree of enlightened self-interest."
Alfred Fromm elevated manners to an art form. Long before my son-in-law
status, he had earned from me the deserved distinction of being the most
civilized man I have ever known.
Manners only embellish a razor-sharp mind. He has the innate ability to
simplify the most complex problems. He thereby is able to express himself
with great clarity and succinctness. Moreover, he is quick to see and
acknowledge the insight of another and to learn from the ways of experience.
Therefore, he is a man who is constantly learning as well as teaching.
Alfred Fromm is also a grateful man. Places that have been kind and
good to him are called "lucky." The country that allowed him to find a safe
haven from Nazi persecution he calls "great." The life he has led is full and
rich and for this he is "grateful."
He sits in my "mind's eye" as he does in his livingroom after a family
dinner, smoking a rich Havana cigar -- its smoke curling upward. A smile of
total contentment fills his handsome, lined face. I feel my own luck -- the
opportunity to see him in this relaxed way, feeling the respect and admiration
I have for him. He is a model for me and for every man -- this Alfred Fromm.
Rabbi Brian Lurie
Executive Director
San Francisco Jewish
Community Federation
II April 1986
San Francisco, California
iv
INTERVIEW HISTORY — Alfred Fromm
The Regional Oral History Office of The Bancroft Library was
commissioned by the Board of Trustees of the Western Jewish History Center,
the Judah L. Magnes Museum, to interview Alfred Fromm for the California
Jewish Community Oral History Series to round out the oral history of his
business career, previously recorded in the California Winemen Series (this
interview is reproduced as Part Two in this volume.) In addition, our
charge was to document his significant contributions to the worlds of
education, music, and the Jewish Community. Because of continued interest
in this historical period, it became important to document not only Mr.
Fromm's earlier life, but also that of his family who had been German
citizens for over two hundred years.
Mr. Fromm and I met for the first time early in 1985 at a preliminary
planning session, which we arranged by telephone. On May 16, 1985 we began
a series of seven interviews, each an average of one and one-half hours in
length. On May 22, 1987, after Mr. Fromm had reviewed the transcript, we
completed the final interview. In January 1988, we met twice for two
hour editing conferences. All sessions took place in the offices of Alfred
Fromm's firm. Brandy Associated, located at 655 Montgomery Street, San
Francisco, usually from 10 am until noon.
Alfred Fromm's seventeenth floor, substantial and contemporary suite of
offices, with a noteworthy view from a wall of large windows, created an
inviting place to work. During one editing meeting, we worked as we ate
a tempting lunch ordered in by Mr. Fromm. We sat in comfortable, dark
leather chairs that complement the round table at which we worked in Mr.
Fromm's private office. A framed key to the city, presented by San
Francisco Mayor Joseph Alioto in 1974, a photograph of Alfred Fromm with
Samuel Bronfman, Seagram's founder, and another of some family members are
seen on the office walls. Degrees awarded Alfred Fromm are framed and hang
here as well.
Mr. Fromm was well-prepared and despite an obviously busy schedule,
always prompt, and considerate. There were few interruptions, since the
staff held all but the most urgent calls. Alfred Fromm was an eminently
involved partner in the editing of his memoirs, taking much care to ensure
the accuracy of dates, names, and clarity of his experiences. He
subsequently chose to write out the concluding remarks which are included in
the last interview with him.
On reading his wife's interview, he told me that he found it much more
interesting than his memoir. Smiling broadly, he said, "It reminds me of
Our Hearts Were Young and Gay by Cornelia Otis Skinner. The difference," he
said, "is that Mrs. Fromm is better at spoken English, I am better at
writing. "
v
Although flexible and open to discussion, Alfred Fromm was firm in his
opinion that we omit discussion of events in which he felt he had not been
significantly involved. In his warm and kindly way, he nonetheless made it
clear that he considered such additions to be self-enhancing and without
value. He was patient, pleasant, and at times, expressed himself with
humor, but questioned decisions to include what he felt was "immaterial.11
Several times we discussed the distinction between the spoken word recorded
in oral memoirs and the written word found in manuscripts.
It was apparent from his interaction with his staff that Alfred Fromm
is more than a figurehead. As he works at his desk early each weekday until
late in the afternoon to fulfill a busy calendar, it was also evident that
the attractive suite of offices is more than a symbol of power.
In addition to interviewing Alfred Fromm, it also became important to
document the creative woman whom he credits as the architect of the Fromm
Institute For Lifelong Learning. Mrs. Alfred Fromm's work and contributions
have increased the dimensions of both music and education. We needed to
record her accomplishments as well as her earlier life in Germany where she
was born and lived.
Hanna Fromm greeted me at her front door on a sunny mid-afternoon in
November 1985, our first meeting, and led me past book-lined walls into a
lovely room with paintings by French and German impressionists. A
sophisticated and busy person, she is a slender and graceful woman, well-
groomed, softly and smartly dressed. She had just returned from her office
at the Fromm Institute for Lifelong Learning on the University of San
Francisco campus, where she works three days each week, in addition to her
other activities. We had spoken by telephone several times and arranged for
this, our first planning meeting. Mrs. Fromm was considerate about the
heavy traffic I might encounter as we set the time for conferences.
During our planning session, we had coffee as we worked in Hanna
Fromm's living room, facing a stunning view of the San Francisco Bay and the
Golden Gate Bridge. She was forthright during our planning meeting and
subsequent two hour interview and spoke with great sensitivity of people who
endure suffering. The interview took place in the less formal of the home's
two dining rooms, a room dominated by the view of the Bay.
When telling of why, despite both of their children being married and
living with their own families for sometime, she and Alfred Fromm still live
in "such a large house" ("My husband says he needs space — always space."),
Mrs. Fromm told witty stories about why she has only part-time assistance in
their home. How some experiences such as one with the man sent by an agency
to fill the role of housekeeper made the decision easier. The man's
superior manner peaked when he asked to see his quarters, which were, Mrs.
Fromm said, "quite nice with generous closets." This applicant, who
referred to himself in the third person, suggested that "Madam may need to
move some of her clothing to make room for William's belongings." Despite
her very busy schedule, Hanna Fromm said, "that did it."
vi
Upon the death of Kurt Herbert Adler some months ago. it became
important to obtain information from those who had known and related closely
with the man whose work had so significantly influenced the San Francisco
Opera and the realm of music. Thus, this office decided to interview Alfred
Fromm for details of his rememberances of Mr. Adler with whom he had a long
and close friendship. The men shared an affiliation with the San Francisco
Opera, which augmented their personal relationship. Caroline Crawford, our
staff music interviewer, was selected to interview Mr. Fromm to document
this information.
One of Mr. Fromm's most recent contributions has been as a co-founder
and president of the founding board of trustees of the San Francisco Jewish
Community Museum, 1984. He is a continuing member and patron.
Rabbi Brian Lurie, executive director of the San Francisco Jewish
Community Federation and not incidentally, son-in-law to Alfred Fromm and a
co-worker for the establishment of the museum, agreed to write the
introduction. We thank Rabbi Lurie and Mrs. Fromm for the insights they
have added to the character of this remarkable public citizen of California
and the United States.
Publications relating to this memoir are on deposit at The Bancroft
Library; the Western Jewish History Center, the Judah Magnes Museum; the
Koret Living Library, and the Gleeson Library at the University of San
Francisco.
Elaine Dorftnan
Interviewer-Editor
18 May 1988
Regional Oral History Office
486 The Bancroft Library
University of California at Berkeley
vii
BIOGRAPHY -- ALFRED FROMM, CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD, FROMM AND SICHEL, INC.
Born February 23, 1905 at Kitzingen, Germany, located in the Franconian wine
district, into an old family of vintners and shippers.
After attending grammar and high school, graduated from the Viticultural
Academy in Geisenheim, Germany.
Married in 1936 to Hanna Gruenbaum. Children: Dr. David George Fromm, born
1939, Professor of Surgery at New York State University; daughter Carolynn Ann
Fromm, born 1946, a psychiatric social worker and psychologist.
Started career in the wine business as an apprentice at the age of 15 in 1920
for a three year period. In 1924 he joined the family's firm, N. Fromm, Wine
Growers and Shippers, in Kitzingen. The main seat was transferred in 1928 to
Bingen- on -the -Rhine, where some of the largest cellars of Rhine and Moselle
wines in Germany were maintained.
Became Export Manager in 1930 of N. Fromm G.m.b.H. and traveled extensively
abroad for the sale of the firm's German wines.
First came to the United States in December 1933 to represent the family firm
and traveled widely throughout the country. In 1936 emigrated to the United
States, becoming a citizen in 1941. In 1937 became a partner in a small
import firm of wines and spirits in New York.
Convinced that the future of the wine business was in California's premium
wine districts, and foreseeing that a war would eliminate foreign supplies, he
obtained the exclusive representation of The Christian Brothers winery in
Napa, California, in 1937 and has been connected with this organization ever
since.
In 1944, together with his friend Franz W. Sichel, founded the firm of Fromm
and Sichel, Inc., with offices in San Francisco, New York, Los Angeles,
Chicago and Atlanta, continuing the worldwide distribution of The Christian
Brothers Wine, Champagne and Brandy.
Franz Sichel died in 1967, and Alfred Fromm is now Chairman of the Board and
Chief Executive Officer, retiring in August 1983.
The ownership of The Christian Brothers vineyards and wineries is held
entirely by The Brothers of the Christian Schools, commonly known as The
Christian Brothers, a religious Order of the Catholic Church. The Christian
Brothers maintain 105 schools and colleges throughout the United States. They
are the third largest Teaching Order of men of the Catholic Church, with
11,000 Brothers serving throughout the world and with schools all over the
globe. Proceeds of their activities in the wine business are used by The
Christian Brothers for the maintenance of their schools and colleges in the
Western Province of the United States.
viii
The Christian Brothers wines and brandy are sold nationally in every state of
the Union and are exported worldwide to sixty countries.
In September 1974 Fromm and Sichel, Inc. moved into their new world
headquarters building at 655 Beach Street on San Francisco's famous
waterfront. Adjacent is The Wine Museum of San Francisco, which opened
January 21, 1974. This first wine -in- the -arts Museum in the Western
Hemisphere is devoted exclusively to praising the lore of wine through
traditional and modern sculpture, artifacts, fine drawings and prints, rare
books and drinking vessels.
Mr. Fromm is the Founder of The Wine Museum of San Francisco; a Regent of
Saint Mary's College in the San Francisco East Bay; Trustee of the San
Francisco Conservatory of Music; a Director of the United HIAS , New York; a
Governor of the Jewish National Fund; Director of the San Francisco Opera
Association; Director of the American Society of Technion- Israel Institute of
Technology, Inc. and many other charitable and cultural organizations.
In 1975 Alfred and Hanna Fromm established the Fromm Institute for Lifelong
Learning at the University of San Francisco. Mr. Fromm received a honorary
Doctor of Humane Letters Degree at Saint Mary's College, in recognition of his
interest in the college's educational program, as well as his interest in
cultural education.
September 1979 -- Alfred Fromm was awarded honorary Degree of Doctor of Public
Service by the University of San Francisco for his
contribution to the education of retired men and women.
March 1981 -- Received the Jefferson Award for community service from the
American Institute of Public Service
October 1982 -- Recipient of the first annual "Distinguished Service Award"
from the Wine Spectator
October 1983 -- Fromm and Sichel, Inc. was sold to the Christian Brothers to
consolidate production and marketing in one hand.
1984 -- With the sale of the firms Real Property the Wine Museum
will be discontinued. Most of the artifacts will be turned
over to the new Seagram Museum in Waterloo, Ontario.
The Franz Sichel Glass collection, one of the finest in the
contents, will be exhibited in one of the leading museums
in the country.
PART ONE: WINE, MUSIC & LIFELONG EDUCATION
-
I FAMILY ORIGIN IN GERMANY
[Interview 1: May 16. 1985]
Dorfman
Frotnm :
Dorfman:
Fromm:
I understand that your family can be traced back at least four
generations, some two hundred years in Germany. What stories do
you recall of your family's beginning?
Well, there is the founding of the wine business in our family by
my great-grandfather Nathan. I think it is covered in the
previous business interview with Mrs. Teiser. I did not know him,
neither did I know my grandfather because he died very early, in
his early forties.
And your father became an apprentice,
for him at such an early age.
It must have been difficult
Well, the business was small and my grandfather was apparently
quite a wise man who insisted that my father get a good
education and training in the wine business. After his father
died, he was sent to Bingen-on-the-Rhine and served his
apprenticeship in a very large firm, in fact the same firm where I
served my apprenticeship. The name of the firm was Feist and
Reinach.
After he had served a three-year apprenticeship, he started
to develop the business. There were two older sisters and they
were not married and needed a dowry. So my father did not marry
until much later in his life because first, as was the custom in
Jewish families in those days, the dowry had to be provided for
his two sisters. After they were married, my father was married
to my mother.
#// This symbol indicates that a tape or segment of a tape has
begun or ended. For a guide to the tapes, see page 163.
Dorfman: What effect did your grandfather's death at such an early age have
on your grandmother?
Fremm: I didn't know her either. You know, in those days people didn't
live as long as today. Many people died at forty-five or fifty
years.
Dorfman: Do you know whether there were agencies at that time to assist
families where the husband had passed away, or groups that helped
each other?
Fromm: I do net know. And if there were, I'm sure that our family would
not have applied to them.
Dorfman: Why was that?
German Jews
Fromm: Well, the way German Jews lived, they were self-reliant and, in
some ways, it was considered a shameful thing to ask for help from
an agency.
Dorfman: You were going to tell me of how your father met and married your
mother.
Fromm: My mother was born in Fischach, which was a village near Augsburg.
And it was a well-to-do family. They had a store in the farming
country where all the farmers came to buy groceries and material
for their clothes, which they made mostly themselves. Then my
mother's brothers started a real estate business, and did quite
well. The family name was Maier.
Dorfman: Who introduced them?
Fromm : I don1 t know.
Dorfman: In the previous interview, you spoke of some of the advantages of
the German apprenticeship program. What were the disadvantages?
Fromm: There was no particular disadvantage. You know, your family had
to pay at the firm where you were apprenticed and you got a
thorough education in wine production and then in wine marketing.
When you had served your apprenticeship, you knew the business in
which you were engagaed and you knew it quite well. No, you
didn't have any life experience, but otherwise you had a good
solid knowledge. You learn an awful lot in your young years that
you don't learn later on.
"
Dorf man:
Fromm:
Dorfman
Fromm:
Dorfman:
Fromm:
Anti-Semitism
Do you know anything of your grandparents' experiences or your
great-grandparents' experiences with anti-Semitism?
I have no direct knowledge of that. At the time my grandfather
and my great-grandfather lived, they could not move into the
cities. There were a lot of restrictions on Jewish people. It
was not until 1869 and 1870 that the Jews in Germany received the
rights of full citizenship. Then, they could move freely around.
For instance, in Bavaria where we lived — it was in the province of
Franconia and was part of the state of Bavaria. There were
certain places before 1870 where only the first-born male member
could marry because they didn't want a lot of Jewish children to
increase the Jewish population. They had to go other places in
order to get married. There were other restrictions at that time
which were removed after 1870.
The Jews of Germany were disadvantaged and had many
difficulties in making a living. But then from 1870 on — this was
the year of the Prussian-French War, when Chancellor Bismarck ran
the country — things got considerably better. Between 1870 and
1933 was really the time where the status of the German Jews
developed. They made very large contributions to the German
economy, to science and medicine and to the arts of all sorts:
music, literature, the performing arts. And then, when the Nazis
came in 1933, that all stopped.
And your father in his early years before 1933?
My father was born in 1870, which was already a better time for
the Jewish people in Germany. There was always an undercurrent of
anti-Semitism in Germany. It still exists today. But it had not
that horrible form that later developed under the Nazis.
Yes, you said that anti-Semitism always existed in Germany, but
that you could live a decent life.
Yes, I remember when we went to school, there was always on a
Thursday, a special lesson on Jewish religion where the Jewish
children went. We went down there — and I remember it like today —
we had to pass a junk yard. It was owned by some miserable
people, the lowest of the low. And they always taunted us. One
day, at that time I think I was about thirteen years old, ene of
those young rowdies attacked one of my friends. I got so enraged
that I attacked him back even though he was much stronger and
older than I. I had such fury in me that I wrestled him down and
beat him up. I must have had the strength of three people because
I was so furious.
Fromm: From that time on when we passed by every Thursday, there never
was another incident. But those things existed.
Dorfman: And these attacks were not too frequent?
Fromm: No. But there was always a separation, There was a certain
Christian elite that did not socially associate with Jewish
people. However, it did not exist that much in our case because
our business had developed very fast and between 1920 and 1930
became one of the largest wine businesses in Germany. My father
was an active supervisor of the city of Kitzingen and highly
regarded. We had a franchise as suppliers to the king of Bavaria.
It was called Heflieferant and was given only to people who were
very well thought of. Later on my father got the title of
Commerzienrat (Councilor of Commerce), which was a high title
given to Jewish people only if they had really contributed to the
German economy and were of high repute. Of course, later on it
didn't make any difference. I mean, a Jew was a Jew.
Dorfman: What can you tell me about this letterhead?
letterhead. ]
[holds R Fromm
Fromm: This is the letterhead of a letter which was written in 1918 by my
father to his former partner, his widowed sister, Crete. On the
top it says, "Wine shippers and Vintners." In the middle is our
residence in the Bismarckstrasse, on the right. Then on the left
it shows the larger building which were the offices and also where
my aunt lived. The buildings in back were the shipping and
storage facilities. And then underground were a few miles of
cellars.
Dorfman: A few miles?
Fromm: Yes. As our business grew so rapidly, we leased quite a few
additional underground cellars. On the left side, you have the
cellars owned by a Catholic church organization. Then underneath,
there is the shipping room. On the right side you have the main
cellar which was under the building that is shown on the letter
head. Underneath there was a big cellar, where very large
quantities of bottled wines were stored. It says on the stationery
that the firm of N. Fromm was a supplier to the king of Bavaria,
that the firm was founded in 1864. That means it was registered
in 1864. but the family was in the wine business long before.
On the left side, it states the various places where we had
cellars: in Kitzingen, in Gresslangheim which is Franconian wine
country, and then in Buedesheim which is right next to Binge n in
the Rhineland. It also states that we were supplier to the German
Ministry for consumption in the then German Colonies. For a
Jewish firm, this was quite a recognition, but we had the quality
and the reputation.
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The Max Fromm Family
The Role of Religion
Dorfman: What was the role of religion in your family?
Fromm: Well, my mother came from an Orthodox family. My father did not.
We did net keep, later, a kosher house, but there were certain
things which never came to the house. That was pork or ham and it
was not considered acceptable. But otherwise, we did not really
have a very Jewish kitchen.
Dorfman: Your family lived within an area populated mostly by Jews?
Fromm: No, no. There was no ghetto in that sense any more. My father
dealt with quite a few prominent gentile businessmen, because he
had a fine reputation and had built a very high-class and large
business. Our house was located in the best part of town.
Were your parents members of Jewish organizations?
Yes, they were members of the temple, of course. The only temple
was Orthodox. It was a small town where we lived, Kitzingen.
There were only about seven thousand people. However, the temple
was completely destroyed in the Kristalnacht by the Nazis.
Dorfman: Did your family attend services at the synogogue?
Dorfman :
Fromm:
Fromm: Yes, of course. We had Bar Mitzvah there. My twin brother and I,
and my older brother, and my younger brother. That was
understood — we observed the High Holidays. My mother went more
often to temple on Saturday, but it was an Orthodox temple and the
women had to sit upstairs.
Dorfman: How about observances at home?
Fromm: Well, there was really no particular observance of Jewish law. My
father travelled widely. However, on the High Holidays, of
course, the business was closed.
Dorfman: Did your mother light candles on Friday evenings?
Fromm: Yes, she did. But in later years she did not any more. She died,
unfortunately, at an early age. I think she was forty-three or
forty-four. She died in 1920 on July 15. I was at that time
fifteen years old. It was the same day when we graduated, my twin
brother and I, from middle high school.
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Fromm: Everything was prepared for graduation day. We had those pseudo
student's outfits. Then, of course, we couldn't go. I did
however give the valedictory speech at school thanking the
teachers. It was a day before my mother's funeral, and we
refrained from any other activities. At graduation time, we could
invite a girl, even though we didn't know what to do with a girl —
we were fifteen years eld — it was a different time. [laughter]
So we missed the fun part of graduation.
Mother
Fromm: She was a wonderful and very charitable woman. For many years we
helped our mother to prepare baskets of food which were delivered
to poor people, gentile and Jewish. My mother was highly regarded
in the community as a very kind and fine person. She looked very
German, blue- eyed and a natural blonde.
Brothers and Sisters
Fromm: My twin brother, Herbert — he's about half a head taller than I
am — he was also blue-eyed and blond and looks very German, too.
Nobody would ever think that he was Jewish by his looks.
He later became a conductor, composer and organist. My
father, however, insisted that he first serve an apprenticeship in
the wine business because he felt to become a musician at that
time was not a proper profession, particularly in a small town.
However, he went with him to Munich to the Akademie der Musik, which
was a very prominent institution in Germany, and talked to the
head of the academy and said, "Well, if my son is really gifted
then I will let him study music." And they told him, "Yes, he
is." Then Herbert studied for a few years at the Academy of Music
in Munich. But it was not until 1933 that his musical education
was finished and after a little while, in 1934, he lost his job as
a conductor. Then in 1935, he was the first one that I arranged
to come to the United States.
He first was musical director of the temple in Buffalo, New
York, and for thirty-three years, until he retired, the musical
director of the most prominent Temple Israel in Boston. And he
has composed and published quite some liturgical and secular
music, becoming a first rate organist. He is well known amongst
Jewish composers, and was awarded the Ernest Bloch Award for his
cantata, "Song of Miriam." He was awarded for his work an
honorary doctor's degree from Lesley College in Cambridge,
Mathilde Maier Froram
Photograph by Gabriel Moulin Studios
'
Fromm: Massachusetts, where he lived. He's now retired. However, they
always call him on the High Holidays, and for aty special goings
on. He's very highly thought of by the community in Boston and
Jewish musical circles.
Dorfman: The relationship between a pair of twins must have been very
special. Were you very close?
Fromm: Yes, we were. My brother is a very intelligent person. He had in
school nothing but A's including gymnastics and singing.
[laughter] He was very spunky, too. He was a good sportsman. If
any one tried to attack us they were very careful because my
brother could handle it very easily, much better than I, because I
was in seme way handicapped. When I was thirteen years old, just
before I was Bar Mitzvah, I broke my ankle completely and was on
crutches for a long time.
You know in those days, there wasn't much of an issue if a
boy broke a leg or his ankle. I was incapacitated for about six
months, but professors from the school where we went came to the
house and I had private tutoring. However, when I was Bar Mitzvah
in 1918, I still couldn't walk. An uncle of mine who was a
lieutenant in the German army, this was during World War I,
carried me up to the pulpit and I said what was called my parsha.
Parsha. you know, is part of the To rah. So everybody was very
much touched.
Dorfman: I'm sure, but how did you feel about that?
Fromm: Well, I took it in stride. I broke my ankle on the day where my
mother said we shouldn't go sleigh riding. And then we hit a big
rock and I had a complete severing of my ankle. My right foot is
about an inch shorter. But when you are young, those things some
how adjust themselves and it really didn't give me toe much trouble
for a long time. I could go skiing later on and walk very easily.
Even today, at eighty years old, I can walk for an hour or two in
the mountains or anywhere else. So, I was quite lucky. As I get
older it sometimes hurts me, and I have to restrict my walking.
Dorfman: What else might you remember of your relationship with your twin
brother, Herbert?
Fromm: Well, he helped me very much in my school work. We had read a
great deal of the German classics when we were young. You know,
in those days there was no radio, no television. We played during
the day and after school until dark. Then we went home and did
our schoolwork. Even though I was very good in German, I had some
trouble with geometry and physics. My twin brother always helped
me. I had quite good grades, too, but not as good as my
brother's. I always looked to him for help when needed. So, it
was a very close relationship.
8
Dorfman: And your other brothers?
Fromm: My oldest brother was called Neander. But when he came to this
country in 1937, he called himself Norman, because nobody had ever
heard of the name of Neander, which was a Latin name. We twins
went only to middle high school, and left school when we were
fifteen. But my brother Norman went the full term to the
gymnasium for another three years, and then later attended the
university in Wuerzburg. He became a successful lawyer later on
in Frankfurt. When the Nazis came, he came in 1938 over here with
his family. He lived first in Hollywood for some time and was
working in the film industry because his wife was born a Laemmle.
Mr. Carl Laemmle was an uncle of hers, and was one of the great
pioneers in the Hollywood movie business. But it wasn't what
Norman really wanted to do. After some years in the shipping
business in New York he came back later to San Francisco and
joined me in the firm as an executive, and was of great help in
the development of our business.
Dorfman: And your younger brother?
Fromm: My younger brother Paul, who is two years younger, was a very
sensitive boy. He was highly intelligent, greatly interested in
music and in art. When he immigrated to the United States in
1937, too, he came to Chicago where I had arranged a place for him
in the wine import business. He joined a firm there and later
bought it. We pooled our resources and he became a successful
wine importer. He founded, about twenty years ago, the Fromm
Music Foundation which is now at Harvard University. It is the
leading institute in the U.S.A. fostering only serious modern
music and composers. Anyone who knows anything about serious
modern music would know the name of Paul Fromm.
He's new retired. He sold his business but still works there
to give them a hand. But his main interest is modern music and he
has done a great deal for it. He has written many articles and
given dozens of interviews in the New York Times and other leading
newspapers, because he is the leading force in modern music in the
U.S. A. He has received two honorary doctorates for his work and
is very well known.
fl
Fromm: I am particularly close to my younger brother Paul. He is an
intellectual, the same as my brothers Herbert and Norman.
Dorfman: Tell me about that.
Fromm: He suffered particularly from my mother's death, at which time he
was thirteen years old. Paul had in some way a tougher time than
I because he was so very sensitive. I always tried to give him a
Fromm: hand in the family because in a small town in those days, being so
interested in music and the arts was considered a luxury. My
father was not very happy about it. but this was. in those days,
you know, a different thing than today.
Dorfman: So. you were protective of your younger brother?
Fromm: Yes.
Dorfman: Where did your family's interest in music and art stem from?
Fromm: I really don't know. My father, who had a limited formal
education, was an unusually intelligent and well-informed man, a
very hard worker. It was necessary in those days in Germany to
make a success. My mother was, like most women, more open to the
arts and music. But she didn't play any instruments.
I was less interested because I always felt a little bit
inferior to my brothers, because they knew things that I did not.
Even when I was very young I always wanted to go into the wine
business. It interested me greatly and I felt to make up for
that, I had to be good in what I was doing in business. I think
it was a great incentive to me to prove to myself and to others
that I could accomplish something.
Dorfman: That's interesting that you were competing with yourself as well
as —
Fromm: Yes, yes. Well, all my life, what little I have been able to do
in my life, I really have done it to prove myself. I always said
to myself, "I want to see if I can do it." It's like going up a
big ladder. You always want to go up a few steps higher, higher —
to see how high you can go. That has been very important in my life.
Dorfman: Did your family attend concerts?
Fromm: Music was mostly performed in our home because we lived in a small
town where very little was offered. In those days, the arts in
small towns were not very much appreciated. But we had a great
deal of it in our house, all good friends, quite a few of them
non-Jewish. There was always music, and great discussions about
philosophy, politics, the arts and paintings and about many books.
We all are bookworms. Everyone in our family reads a great deal.
I never listened in school in Germany to grammar because I
knew it. We read most of the classics, and a lot ©f other books,
too. Spelling and grammar were never any problem for me in
German. It was considered a disgrace if you didn't know the
proper grammar and the right spelling. Grammar in Germany is
sometimes a little bit involved and difficult. We all were good
at expressing ourselves writing in German.
10
Dorfman: Which books were favorites of your family?
Fremm: Well, they were all the classics, like Goethe, Schiller, Heinrich
Heine. There were many others, Shakespeare, of course. We read
them pretty solemnly and we had, I think, substantial knowledge
for young people of the German classics.
Dorfman: You said that you were one of seven brothers and sisters.
Fromm: Yes, four brothers and one sister and then two step-sisters.
Margaret Meyer and the other one of my step- sisters was Joan
Maier.
Dorfman: New, Margaret Meyer was married to Otto Meyer.
Fromm: Otto was associated with me in the Fromm and Sichel, Incorporated,
and he became the president of our subsidiary, Paul Masson in
Saratoga, California. Under his guidance it grew to be an
important factor in the California premium wine and champagne
business. He has been retired since approximately 1977.
Joan Maier was maried to Bernhardt Maier, who was my late
mother's youngest brother. He was associated with my brother Paul
in Chicago for many years and a star salesman. For my young years
he introduced me to the art of selling fine wines in Germany.
Both, unfortunately, are not alive any more, and neither is my
blood sister Friedel.
ff
Fromm: Even though I left school when I was fifteen years old, I think I
had in many ways a better education than many of the young people
here of nineteen. There was no television, there was no radio in
those days and our pleasure and endeavor was to read as much as
possible. Besides the classics, we also read a lot of junk books,
like the Indian books of Carl May. They were fabulous. He was a
German school teacher, he never was in America, and he wrote the
most fascinating books about American Indians. And these were
read by all of us and our friends.
We had a big house. So there were often interesting
discussions, sometimes violent discussions, of whatever went on.
And so, in this way, I think all of us were exposed to a lot of
information and problems.
Dorfman: Political problems?
Fromm: Yes, political problems, and social and economic problems, too.
Dorfman: And there was a great deal of music played in your home and in the
garden by friends as well as your brothers.
11
Fromm :
Yes.
Dorfman: In terms of the role of art. you said that you had many
discussions at home. Did your family have an art collection in
your home?
Fromm: No, we didn't. We had some very good artworks that my father or
mother had acquired over the years. It was a very busy house, a
business house.
Dorfman: And museum visits?
Fromm: Yes. There was no museum in the town where we lived, but later en
when we traveled throughout Germany and later abroad for the
business, we also visited museums in London, in Paris, in Denmark,
in Chechoslovakia, and wherever we were.
Dorfman: To come back to your relationships within your family, tell me
about your sister.
Fromm: Well, we only had one sister. Her name was Friedel. When she,
her husband, and two sons came to the United States, they had no
money. She made hats for great society ladies in New York. She
was very gifted. She had to contribute to the funds of the family
because her husband had a hard time relocating. He came from one
of the best known Jewish families in Berlin.
Our sister lived with us when my mother died in 1920. She
ran the house for a few years and then she got married. She was a
beautiful and kind woman. In fact, she was almost a do-gooder,
[laughter] When we had immigrated to the United States, she kept
in touch with other parts of the family. She was the one who knew
everybody. I must say, to my disadvantage, I was not particularly
interested in the cousins and second cousins. But even so, we
were able to help them sometimes when the need arose. That is
self-understood in a Jewish family.
Dorfman: And to whom was this sister married?
Fromm: She was married to Bruno Israel in Berlin. The Israel family was
the founder of that large department store, N. Israel. And they
became immensely wealthy. My brother-in-law's father already
became a gentleman farmer because there was a lot of money and
they had a big farm right outside of Berlin. He grew up in great
wealth. He later changed his name when he came to America to
Fromm because he felt he would be more easily accepted.
Dorfman: And speaking of cousins, I wanted, of course, to ask about your
memories of your second cousin, Erich Fromm.
12
Frocun :
Well, my oldest brother Norman, who studied in Munich where Erich
Fromm studied, too, was very close to him. We were not that close
because when we came to the United States, he lived at that time
in Mexico. But he visited with us in our home.
I remember one day when Erich gave a lecture here, he came
for dinner, in 1965. My son was, at that time, a resident at the
medical school of University of California and he just had to see
that famous man. He expected great things, and all Erich was
asking was, "Well, how's cousin so-and-so? And what happened to
aunt so-and-so?11 So he really wanted to know what happened to the
whele family. It was a very amusing thing.
He gave a talk at San Francisco State University. At that
time it wasn't yet called a university. There were a lot of young
people and my wife took him by the arm. They were walking along
and some young woman came and said, "Master, what is the
ultimate?" And he said, "There is no ultimate." And she said,
"Thank you master." [laughter] That was the answer.
He was a psychologist of great repute and a very sensible
person. I think he had a decided influence throughout the world
and en a very sound basis. And yet, when we talked to him, he was
a warm and regular person. His books made him world famous.
Dorfman: Had you known each other well as children?
Fromm: No, we didn't. His family lived in Frankfurt, which was some
distance away. Today, we wouldn't consider this a distance but in
those days it was. We knew his father and his mother. Our
parents and his parents visited, but we really met him only later
in life. They were in the apple wine business in Frankfurt. We
were in the real wine business. So, there was some contact there
professionally.
Childhood
Dorfman: Going on with your childhood in Germany, I would like to know what
memories you have of how your home looked.
Fromm: Well, we had a very nice house, at first in Kitzingen, with a
large garden. Then in 1928, as our firm had rapidly developed, we
bought one of the largest underground cellars in Germany in
Bingen-on- the- Rhine. The main seat of the firm was moved from
Kitzingen to Bingen-on- the- Rhine. I can show you a picture of our
large home. Our family became quite wealthy because my father
was, as I mentioned, a very excellent and far sighted businessman.
When enormous inflation in Germany came, almost everybody was
•>
13
Fromm: wiped out. However, my father felt that we should start in the
early 1930s in the export business, and we did. During
inflationary years, we had a branch of the firm and a depot of our
wines in Holland, in Amsterdam; in London; in Prague,
Czechoslovakia, and Saarbrucken, which was in the German Saarland
and was occupied by the French for some years in the 1930s. Our
sales in foreign countries produced substantial earnings in
foreign exchange, and when the German mark was stabilized, the
firm of N. Fromm was financially very strong.
Dorfman: Coming back to your home, what it was like to grow up in that
house as a child in Kitzingen?
Fromm: We had a happy home life when we grew up in Kitzingen. We had big
gardens where we played. We had many friends from all over who
went to school with us or from families we knew, Jewish and non-
Jewish. It was a good way to grow up. We had a lot of fun. I
would say there were no particular difficulties that I recall.
Dorfman: Who helped your mother in the house?
Fromm: Well, we always had a cook and a house maid, and someone came in
for the washing. There was plenty of help. I know when I came to
the United States and I had to take the garbage out, I would say
to my wife, "What did we do in Germany with the garbage? I never
saw it."
Dorfman: And each child had his own bedroom?
Fromm: When we were small we shared bedrooms. Of course, my sister had
her own room and also my oldest brother. But my twin brother and
I, we slept in one large room for some years and so did my
youngest brother. But later on, we all had our own rooms. When
we moved to Bingen, we had a very big house, a much bigger house
than we had in Kitzingen, A beautiful view of the Rhine, it was
really a very outstanding place.
Dorfman: When you were young, did the family travel a great deal on trips
or vacations?
Fromm: My parents did and my father went every year to take the cure.
This was a habit in Germany. Then later on when we grew up, when
I served my apprenticeship and later on, all of us children —
independently — travelled extensively. We went to Switzerland and
to Italy and to many other places in Europe.
Dorfman: When you were still at home, you said that life was very happy for
a child growing up within your family. Were there many family
parties and social events?
14
Fromm: No, really not. There were, of course, the family parties, all
the holidays, and on Sunday there was always a big meal.
Everybody was there and there was something very special,
particularly good food. So, it was very much enjoyed. We always
had wine. As children we always got a little drop of wine with
some water. Because we always were exposed to this, I think that
none of us is a drinker. And well, if you are in the business as
I was in all my life, then you know what it means to drink too
much. This is something that has never bothered anyone in our
family.
Dorfman: So, with such a large family, it wasn't difficult for Sunday meals
to become family events?
Fromm: Yes, and then always some of our friends were invited. There were
always twelve, fifteen people at the table. It was a very festive
meal and everyone enjoyed it.
Dorfman: During the week, were all meals eaten together?
Fromm: No, breakfast we had by ourselves because we all had to go to
school. But lunch was always taken together. That was really the
big meal during the day. There was a lighter meal in the evening.
but it was always done in the family circle. As long as we were
all home, we always had our meals together with our parents.
Parents' Expectations and Values
Dorfman: What did your parents expect of you?
Fromm: My father was sue cess- oriented, but as I mentioned before, he was
also a very charitable man. He expected that we do well, whatever
it was. After we served our apprenticeship, as I mentioned, I
then came back to work in our family's firm and so did later my
brother Paul, my younger brother. It was always expected that we
would do a good job because my father was a pretty tough task
master. He put quite some requirements on us because he was a man
who had accomplished very much by himself under tremendous odds.
And your mother. What was her expectation of you?
My mother just wanted to see that everything went along well. She
took great interest in our education when we were small and helped
us where she could, and also showed us that one had to do things
for other people.
Dorfman: So, it was your mother who —
Dorfman :
Fromm:
>
15
Fromm: — was a generous person. My father was a very charitable man in a
very large way, as soon as he could afford to do it. But my
mother really instilled in all of us that idea that one had to do
something for others, and that out of all the bounty and all of
the fruits of our labors, there should be something for other
people.
Dorfman: How were your parents' expectations different for the other
family members than they were for you?
Fromm: I remember when I was about nineteen, twenty years old, I started
to travel for the firm, all over the country. My father had
certain ideas: Number one, we could not call on any old customers.
We only could call on new customers, which was difficult.
Secondly, we were paid a commission, but he thought according to
German education principles we only were paid half of what other
people got, because he thought his sons should not make that kind
of money. However, I did make good money anyway. Of course, I
really applied myself to it.
Dorfman: What was important to your parents?
Fromm: Well, it was important that we lead a respected and honorable
life, that we would do a good job in whatever our profession was.
That we should help other people where it made good sense. My
father was not a do-gooder. But he spread his charities where he
thought it would do some good. He helped many people to set up in
business or made it possible for them to make a better living. He
was the paterfamilias of the extended family.
Dorfman: During World War I, were any of your family members in the German
army?
Fromm: Yes, some uncles of mine. Yes, one was a lieutenant. The other
served in the army. My mother's youngest brother was killed in
France during the First World War.
Dorfman: What was the attitude of the family?
Fromm: Well, we were probably better Germans than Jews at that time.
Most of the Jews were very patriotic Germans.
Dorfman: Do you recall stories about the experiences in the army of family
members at that time?
Fromm: I remember vividly when World War I started, one day I saw my
mother on the steps of our house. She was crying bitterly, and I
asked, "Well, what is it?" Look at all these big victories the
Germans had. She said, "No, this will be the end of the world we
know." I didn't understand this for many, many years.
16
Added Reflections on Background and Family
Derfman: Did anyone in your family speak or understand Yiddish?
Fromm : No.
Dorfman: Were there other languages in which your family was fluent?
Fromm: Not fluent, but, of course, we were taught French and English, At
the gymnasium, my oldest and youngest brother were taught Latin
and Greek, however in a limited way.
Dorfman: When you attended school, were you taught languages?
Fromm: Yes,we were taught French and English. But before I came here, I
went for a month to Cambridge in England and lived with a
professor there. There was nothing but English spoken. So, when
I came over here to do business at the time Prohibition was
repealed in December, 1933, I had a working knowledge of English.
I could get along.
Advice From Rabbi Stephen Wise
Derfman: I'd like to go on to the years of Hitler. You mentioned that you
met Rabbi Stephen Wise when you were in this country.
Fromm: Well, I arrived in New York on December 5, 1933, the day
Prohibition was repealed. As I was the oldest son in the
business, I was delegated to open the American market.
I found out one thing, that if I wanted to ask someone for
directions, I always addressed myself to well-dressed and nice
looking people because they really gave me better information, and
they talked to strangers more easily because many are people
who've traveled. Whereas, if you talked to the average person,
you know, he just had no time and ran away.
So, I had quite some experiences because my English was very
spotty, but I got along. I started to call on the large wholesale
distributors in order to distribute our wines as was necessary
under the license system that existed here. And a lot of the
distributors here were Jewish and they wouldn't buy any German
wine. They said, "We are not buying any German wine because this
only helps the Nazis." So, I pleaded with them and said, "Well,
you know that we are Jewish and the fact that we are exporting and
bringing foreign exchange into Germany, that protects our family."
•«
17
Fromm: And in fact, it did, because some of the lowest class Nazis, the
Brown Shirts,' took my father to a concentration camp in 1934 for a
week. But then we intervened with the German Reichsbank, which
was the same as the Federal Reserve Bank here. Dr. Schacht was
the president of the Reichsbank. He was also the one who
stabilized the German mark after the inflation. At his
instruction, my father was released. He was so important because
we had a fairly large export business of German wines.
But in New York, I found it very difficult with so many
distributors and I really got desperate. I said, well, what do I
do, because they wouldn't buy anything from us because it was
German goods. They said to me, "Alfred, you're a nice young man.
Why don't you go into something else? But we don't buy German
goods. "
[Interview 2: July 19,1985]
Fromm: So, I asked, "Who is the most prominent Jew in New York?" They
told me the most prominent and the most influential Jew in New
York was Rabbi Stephen Wise. I called him and he gave me an
appointment.
He was a very imposing man, and spoke beautiful German. And
I told him my story. He said, "Alfred, I will give you one piece
of advice. All the Jews in Germany will leave with a pack on
their back. This is just the beginning. Get out as fast as you
can. Take out whatever money you can." This was very dangerous.
My father would never violate the law. He didn't permit us to
take any money out.
Dorfman: He didn't?
Fromm: No, no, it was against the law. German Jews were very patriotic
and very law abiding, as most Germans were. And Rabbi Wise said.
"Take your family out as quickly as you can because this will be a
horrible end in Germany." Now this was in January or February of
1934. At that time, almost everybody thought that Nazi business
would blow over and settle down to something reasonable.
I took his advice and as I told you my twin brother came out
first in 1935, and then all the rest of the family. When we
immigrated, we brought out altogether, thirty- seven people, our
immediate family. And we are one of the very few Jewish families
whose immediate family all live in the United States. We are not
dispersed all over the world. So, this is one of the reasons we
are so grateful to the United States, for giving us a home and
giving us a chance.
18
Fromm: After I emigrated, I still sold quite a bit of German wine because
my parents were still living there until I got them out. The same
day my parents were out. I completely stopped any contact with
Germany. That was finished for me. But as I told many of my
friends who were in the same position as I, "You know you are
making a great mistake. You have such tremendous hatred against
the Nazis which I fully understand. But it eats you up. It's
something destructive." I said, "I've made up my mind. I just
despise the Nazis, but I do not permit myself this hatred because
this will hinder me in what I need to do here, to get roots in
American soil."
Dorfman: That's a fine philosophy.
Fromm: Well, it's also a practical philosophy.
Dorfman: Did Rabbi Wise, when you consulted with him, assist you at all?
Fromm: No, he just gave me that advice. And when we had been in the
country for about four years — I kept in touch with Rabbi Wise — I
sent him a thousand dollars because Rabbi Wise gave me such
valuable counsel. I felt so strongly that I would like to show my
appreciation — and in those days this thousand dollars was like a
fortune to me — that I had to do something important to acknowledge
his invaluable advice to me.
Dorfman: Tell me about that relationship that you maintained with Rabbi
Wise.
Fromm: Well, I called on him from time to time and got advice from him.
He was an outstanding, intelligent man. Then after he died, I had
some contact with his daughter, Justice Wise Politzer.
Dorfman: What was Rabbi Wise's role at the time that you knew him?
Fromm: Well, he was the first Rabbi at the largest temple in New York
City. He was very active politically. He was the most prominent
Jew at that time in New York. That's why I called on him.
-
19
II LEAVING GERMANY PERMANENTLY, 1936
Dorfman: I would like to return to your immigration to the United States.
We know from previous interviews with you that you traveled to the
United States between 1933 and 1936 and that in 1936, you decided
to leave Germany to live here permanently. That decision was
brought about, of course, by the —
Fromm: — by the situation the Nazis created. We had made up our minds to
immigrate as soon as we could, but I couldn't manage it before
1936.
jjarriage to Hanna Gruenbaum
Fromm: My wife and I came to this country in 1936. We were just married.
Dorfman: Yes, tell me about the marriage.
Fromm: Well, I wanted to get married earlier. My wife is about nine
years younger than I am. However, I couldn't under the
circumstances with the Nazis, because my wife had already
immigrated and at that time she lived with her mother in
Palestine. At the time, Israel was not yet a nation.
We got married in 1936 and I sent her a cable to Jerusalem.
I wanted to go there and then we would take our honeymoon on a
trip down the Nile. However, then the riots broke out in
Palestine: shooting between the English, Israelis and the Arabs.
I cabled that she should meet me in Trieste, which she did. But
when she arrived in Trieste, Italy, with her mother, I wasn't
there because I couldn't get my passport. So, I came about a week
later.
We went to the rabbi and we were married in a religious
ceremony. I went back to the United States on business and Hanna
went back to London where she had an uncle with whom she lived.
20
Fromm: Then we went t© Prague to visit an uncle of hers who was a
professor at the German university in Prague. He was an ultra-
Orthodox Jew. When I arrived there he asked about our marriage
ceremony. I hemmed and I hawed because there was no chupah at
that time — our marriage was not done in the Orthodox tradition.
He said, "Veil, there is no blessing and no good fortune in a
marriage like that for the granddaughter of Abraham Gruenbaum."
My wife's grandfather was a very prominent Orthodox person. He
was one of the main founders of Share Zedak Hospital in Jerusalem
in the year 1890.
So we got married again in a very Orthodox way. After that
we went to New York.
if
Fromm: As soon as I arrived, I wanted to file for my first papers to
become a citizen. I went to an attorney and he asked, "Where is
your marriage certificate?" So, I showed him those two scrolls in
Hebrew. He said, "That's no good in New York. It's considered a
common law marriage. You have to have a civil marriage. Other
wise, for five years it will not have the same legal standing."
I figured this was not very good. So, one day we went down
to City Hall. There were maybe thirty couples in front of us and
finally, our turn came. After it was over, the man who performed
the ceremony looked at his list and said, "Hanna, how does it feel
to be Mrs. Fromm?" And he said to me, "You can kiss the bride,"
which I did. It was no hardship. And he stuck his hand out. To
me as a German, you know, to give an official a tip, I thought
would be a criminal thing to do. But fortunately, my witness was
an American boy who came forward with two dollars and gave it to
him which in those days was a lot more money than it is today. So
we were married actually three times. But now we are married
fifty years.
Dorfman: Congratulations on the success of your marriage. So, your
brother, Herbert, and then you and your wife came to New York.
Who followed?
Fromm: My oldest brother, Norman, with his wife and his child followed.
Then my brother-in-law. Otto Meyer, who married my step-sister
Margaret and his child came. Afterwards, my sister and her
husband and two boys came, one after the other. Between 1936 and
1938, everybody came as quickly as they could get their visas.
The ones who came last were my parents because for a long time my
father resisted immigrating. He said, "That Nazi business cannot
last for a long time." He was such a prominent man in our
industry and so well known that he felt it could not be meant for
him.
>
21
Fromm: But then, of course, he saw what happened. We finally got them
out, but we couldn't get them to the United States at that time
because the war had already broken out in 1941. This was, I
think, in 1940 or 1941. Then he and mother went to England and
were there during the Blitz. Then they couldn't, however, cross
the ocean because it was too dangerous en account of the German U-
boats. They went from England to South America. And with quite
some effort we got them out of South America to come here. At
that time it was very difficult to get visas. But he was such an
outstanding wine expert and the wine industry was very young. So,
he came with a special visa as the wine expert that he really was.
Dorfman: His expertise was really —
Fromm: — very valuable and very helpful to us in the development of our
business.
Dorfman: And that was in 1940 that your parents first went to South
America? Then in '41 they arrived in San Francisco?
Fromm: No, they stayed in England for some time, and I think they arrived
here in 1942.
Dorfman: That arrival must have been a very joyous one.
Fromm: Yes. My father couldn't take any money out of Germany, but by
that time, my brothers and I were already settled to some extent.
So, we saw to it that they had what they needed. He was a very
frugal man, a very charitable man, but very frugal for himself.
Dorfman: You made a statement that comes to mind at this point: that your
education in Germany prepared you, in a way, to be financially
conservative. What did you mean by that?
Fromm: Well, the German way was, first, you don't buy anything if you
don't have the cash. The second thing is, you don't incur any
personal debt. You can do it in your business because you have to
very often. Or if you buy a house you have a mortgage. But for
other things you just don't. You don't buy a car on credit or
anything of that sort. That was the way our family was run and I
would say almost all the better Jewish families were run in this
way in Germany.
Germans basically, at that time, were very conservative
people who saved. Money is not being spent in Germany like it is
here. It took us a long time to acquire certain possessions here
in the United States because we paid cash for them. It's
different today with many of the young people here. They want
everything and they want it now and toe early. But they miss, in
some ways, the pleasure and satisfaction of having worked for
something — and finally getting it.
22
Derfman: Previously you said, "No one does it all by himself."
Fromm: Well. I feel very strongly about this. There are so many people
who always say I, I, I have done this and they take all the credit
for whatever they accomplish for themselves. I don't believe in
that. I believe that you have to work very hard, that you have to
know your business, that you have to be honorable and fair in your
dealings. But this is only fifty percent. The other fifty
percent you can interpret as you want. I feel that I had the
blessings from above. Some people say it's good fortune or
whatever it is. I don't ever say that I did this all by myself.
It's being there, and at the right time. There are so many
circumstances and I never have given my own efforts more than
fifty percent of the credit. But this is my personal belief.
After we, my wife and I, came to the U.S.A. — at first, we had
no money. So we lived in a very cheap apartment in New York.
Then as we prospered a bit, we changed and we moved from New York
to Los Angeles for a short time and then from Los Angeles to San
Francisco. We first had an apartment here and then we bought a
house. Then we built our own house later. So, altogether we
moved eight times and unfortunately, some of the materials from
home in Germany got lost. In my eagerness to have roots again in
our new homeland, I did not understand then the importance of the
past.
Dorfman: You also spoke of a burning desire to become a United States
citizen.
Fromm: Yes, when we left Germany, we were completely uprooted. It was
always my most important goal to have our family have their roots
again here. The idea of the wandering Jew is a horrible one to
me. We saw those poor people from Russia and Poland when they
came to Germany to ask for alms. Later on, of course, this
changed when many of those people came to Israel and had such an
enormously large part as pioneers in the building of Israel.
Life in New York City
Dorfman: What was it like to live and work —
Fromm: On our arrival in New York, we took a very cheap apartment because
we had no money. I found a j ob right away because I worked here a
good part of the time bewteen 1933 and 1936. I found a job with a
wine importer, and I started out with twenty-five dollars a week
which in those days was not a bad salary, because there were many
people who worked for eight or ten dollars a week.
'
23
Fromm: After a year I became a small partner in this small wine import
firm because I had many contacts throughout the country through my
extensive travels before.
Dorfman: The job and the import firm were both connected with wine importing?
Fremm: Yes. I was the only one in the firm who knew something about wine
because with fourteen years of Prohibition, of course, there were
hardly any American wine experts around. So. I was sent to Europe
for the firm to buy wine and make contacts with the wine shippers
in Europe. I could see the preparations for war by the Nazis and
told my partners that a war was coming, that one day we would be
cut off from all our foreign sources and that we'd better look for
a domestic source of supply. That's what got me into the
California wine business. That was a very fortunate thing.
Those are decisions you make. Whether it was smart or it was
good luck — this really is the blessing you receive if you do
things right.
Dorfman: Certainly that was visionary. You were living in a small
apartment when you came to New York. Where was that apartment?
Fromm: It was on East Fifty-Fifth Street, but it was in a horrible
location. It was right next to the El, the elevated subway.
Whenever the El came by, which was very frequently, everything
shook in the house and you thought it went right through your
bedroom. But it was all we could afford. The fact is, even when
I made so little money, we always saved a few dollars each week.
Well, we lived very frugally. We had brought from Germany
all our clothes. We didn't buy anything for two or three years.
It had to do. My wife had worked in haute couture in Paris
before. She had beautiful clothes and she was a very pretty girl.
So, we had access to very nice people who invited us and helped us
with sound advice. The people were really very good to us.
That's another reason why I'm such an enthusiastic American. We
never asked for anything, of course. We wouldn't have accepted it
either. We were complete strangers. Everything was different.
You really needed to feel your way. We knew quite a few people
who were prominent people in New York and they told us what was
the right thing to do.
Dorfman: How long were you in that small apartment?
Fromm: We were there for about six months. And then, after I became a
partner in the wine firm, I was making seventy-five dollars a
week, which was a princely salary in those days. However, I
didn't draw that money. We drew twenty-five, thirty dollars a
week, and then maybe later on thirty-five because I wanted to
increase my share in the business.
24
Fremm: For years I drew the minimum to live on, and did accumulate a
sizable amount of deferred salaries and from profits. With that I
bought shares in the firm and ultimately became a fifty percent
share holder, helped with some credit from the Bank of America.
This is somehow an "un- American11 way because, if many Americans
make some money, most of them want to spend it. I felt I'm not
going to be an employee, but a business owner.
Dor f man: And that was your way out?
Fremm: Yes. And we never felt poor, from the first day we arrived in the
U.S. Never.
Dorfman: Did you then move to Riverside Drive?
Fromm: Yes. We had a better apartment and then our son David was born.
We got a two year lease and there was quite some rent concession
at that time. It was a fairly low rental. But after the two
years were over, they wanted the full price. I didn't think that
we could afford that so we moved far out to Riverdale — which I
liked very much because we had a view to the river. However, it
was a tremendously long subway ride. I had to change a few times.
It was almost an hour and during the summer at that time, the
subway was net air-conditioned. You know, the way they shoved you
in at Times Square, it was cruel.
I said to my wife, "I wasn't born to be a subway rider. I'm
going to make a hundred thousand dollars." I could have said I'll
make a million or ten million. This was a fabulous amount in
those days. [laughter] Because this was was net for me. I said,
"I will do whatever is necessary to get out of that." And that was
my incentive. I often say the miserable New York subway has done
me a lot of good.
Dorfman: [laughter] That's understandable.
Living in San Francisco
Derfman: And then, of course, we know from previous interviews what brought
you to California, the wine industry and your activities in that
industry. I would like to ask where you moved first when you came
te San Francisco in 1941.
Fromm: I spent a lot of time in San Francisco, and in California in order
to build our California business. But we didn't live here at
first.
•>
25
Fromm: We built our house at Seacliff in San Francisco about thirty years
ago, and it's qui'e a little story of go.>d fortune and
persistence. When I first came to California from New York, we
started to take the agency for the world-wide distribution rights
for the Christian Brothers Winery in Napa, California. It is
owned by a Roman Catholic order in Rome. I was in San Francisco.
I spent a few months in Napa at the winery, at the monastery, as
we had not relocated to San Francisco.
One day in 1940 I called my wife in New York and told her she
should come out to San Francisco because it would be necessary
that we move to San Francisco. Our business developed very
rapidly and it was necessary for me to be here because this is
where the product originates. So, she came out and I took her out
to Seacliff. And there was an old broken down shack where our
house is now. But it had the most fabulous view of the Golden
Gate Bridge opposite the Golden Gate headlands. I said to her,
"Sweetheart, this is where I'm going to build a house as soon as I
have the money." About five years later, it was a Sunday and it
was my birthday. The real estate broker said to me, "Alfred, you
can buy that let now, but you have to sign on the dotted line
because you're dealing with a real nut."
So we signed. The lot was very expensive in those days. It
was thirty-five thousand dollars which was a fortune for us. But
we bought it. And this is where we built our house. So, what I
said to my wife so many years ago finally came through. I sold
some land to General Motors who wanted it for their plant. And
then we started to build the house with the funds that we had
acquired selling our old house, the money that I got from the sale
of real estate, and some other funds that I had accumulated.
After our house was finished, then I felt — I'm an American
citizen, although I had my citizenship papers many years before.
Dorfman: What a feeling!
Fromm: Yes. You see, I come from a land owning, home owning, vineyard
owning family. And to me this means a great deal. I felt
uncomfortable living in a rented place.
Dorfman: When did you buy that first house? What was the year?
Fromm: The first house at 845 El Camino Del Mar we bought, I think, in
1944.
Dorfman: And you built your present home?
Fromm: Our home we built in 1954.
Dorfman: So you have been living in that home for some time now?
26
Fromm :
Yes. over thirty years.
Dorfman: What was life like in San Francisco for you, your wife and your
son?
Fromm: Our son went to public school and did very well. My wife, during
the war years, was a Red Cross instructor and a driver. She's an
excellent driver. I'm not. We had some occasional help in the
house, but she took care of the house, of whatever had to be done.
Later on, in 1946 our daughter was born.
Dorfman: And your son was born in 1939?
Fromm:
Yes.
Dorfman: What was the city like when you came in 1941?
Fromm: Well, it was very much smaller and much more intimate. We didn't
have all those skyscrapers, all those big buildings. The traffic
was very normal. It was a very comfortable city. And as I knew
the United States so well, San Francisco has been always a place
where I felt it would be the best place for us to live. I
wouldn't want to live in New Orleans which is a great tourist
attraction, but I thought it was a very phoney place. And San
Francisco was a very conservative town. We liked it right from
the beginning. We liked the view of the Golden Gate Bridge
because I grew up on Bingen- on- the- Rhine. We had a large house
that overlooked the Rhine River and to me that meant a great deal.
So, I felt that was something I really wanted.
While we lived in those days rather frugally, I always felt a
good, well built, and comfortable home is most important. When I
come home, I don't want to go into some hovel. I feel like I
deserve it because I worked so hard for it. This to me was very
important: to build and to have my own home.
Dorfman: What was going on in the city in those years, in 1940, politically?
Fromm: Politically?
Dorfman: Yes. Were you involved in politics?
Fromm: No, I never was involved in politics. I've helped some people,
but I have no direct involvements in politics.
Dorfman: How about social activities in the city at that time?
Fromm: Well, we knew quite a few of the people who had come from Germany
or Austria, too. We became very friendly with some of them. We
made some very good friends with some prominent Gentile Americans.
Se. we had a nice social life. But I always told my wife, and she
-
27
Frotnm: felt the same as I, the so-called upper crust, they have to come
to us first. We are not com..ng to them. We have si.rictly stuck
to that. We are not social climbers because I consider it
complete nonsense and it means absolutely nothing to me. If you
have some self-respect and if you want to live your own life, you
don't care what other people do.
Dorfman : Were you temple members at that time?
Fromm: Yes, of the Temple Emanu-El.
Dorfman: Who was the Rabbi at that time?
Fromm: The first Rabbi when we came was Alvin Fine. But then Rabbi Asher
came and we were very friendly with him. We knew him and Rabbi
Fine quite well.
Dorfman: Were you particularly impressed with the rabbis at the Temple
Emanu-El?
Fromm: We are not religious Jews. And I must say, even though we were
members, we generally went to the Temple only for the High
Holidays. Otherwise we didn't, we were not active members. Now
Hanna's mother, who lived here, too, she was much more religiously
inclined and she went to Temple Emanu-El more often.
28
III FROMM INSTITUTE FOR LIFELONG LEARNING, UNIVERSITY OF SAN
FRANCISCO, 1975
Dorfman: I would like to ask you about a contribution of much significance,
the Fromm Institute in San Francisco.
Plan and Design; Hanna Fromm
Dorfman: You told me that Mrs. Fromm was actually the principal architect
of the Fromm Institute. Who designed the structure of the
Institute?
Fromm: Well, we took a lot of advice. My wife and I went to Washington
and talked with the federal government — the top people in the
Department of Education. They told us if we would get ten or
fifteen students to start out, that we would do well. Generally,
when you get a lot of advice, people mostly tell you what you
cannot do.
We talked a great deal with people we knew and we found there
was a tremendous need, that many older people had no place to go
and were deteriorating very fast. And we talked to a number of
professors and some outstanding educators. They all were very
much interested in what we were endeavoring to do and gave us a
lot of good advice.
We were pretty much settled that something like that had to
be done. This was quite new in those days. I'm talking now about
twelve, thirteen years ago. We went to various locations and the
University of San Francisco was the one that was best located.
It's a Jesuit university that has full understanding for the
social implication of what we want to do — finding educational
opportunities for older people. And they told us that they would
assist us in every way, except we couldn't get any money from them
whatsoever. But they would make available as their contribution
the classrooms, an office, their cafeteria, their reception rooms,
>
29
Fromm: and things of that sort which they have done ever all those years.
But all cash expenses for the professors' salaries and the
administration had to be paid by us right from the beginning.
We can use the university's complete organization. For
instance, we don't handle any money whatsoever. Everything is
paid through the university. We use their computer, but, ef
course, we have to provide the money.
At that time, Father Mclnness was president of the University
of San Francisco. We were very friendly with him. And finally he
said to us, "You know, Alfred and Hanna, if you want to do it,
stick your neck out and do it."
If
Fromm: But the question was where does the money come from. So, we put
in a sizable amount ourselves. Then I talked to some people I
knew at Bank of America, some ether large companies, and some very
wealthy individuals. So, altogether we raised about a hundred
thousand dollars at the start, which, in those days, was quite a
lot more than it is today.
Dorfman: And that was in what year?
Fromm: It was in '74.
Then we started. There was one large article in the
Chronicle on a Sunday about how important this could be, in all a
very favorable article. It said there would be open house for
people who were interested. When the open house was held two days
later, between four and five hundred people came.
It was bedlam. Nobody knew where to seat them. Nobody had
anticipated such a response. About three hundred people
registered for the courses but it was very difficult to take even
seventy-six because we didn't have enough professors and we didn't
have the necessary funds for a larger set-up. So, we finally
accepted seventy-six people contrary to what the government people
had advised — that if we would take ten or fifteen t© start, we
would do well.
It's not that we were smarter than other people. The time
was just right for that. The people who helped us and put up the
original money together with our own understood that this was
important and should be supported.
Dorfman: But that also was visionary.
30
Fromm: Well, yes it was something that didn't exist, but we felt very
strongly about it. We had some good friends who retired and after
a year or two the men died or they got sick. Those people's lives
ended because they felt completely useless and they were like fish
out of water. People hadn't prepared for retirement.
Dorfman: So, on one hand, an institute such as the Fromm Institute gives a
gift to the individual, which the individual returns to the
community.
Fromm: Right.
Derfman: The Fromm Institute for Lifelong Learning; A Guide and a Model.
1982, which you lent to me told much of the beginning. I wonder
what else might come to mind.
Fromm: At that time, Mrs. Mishkin, the wife of a professor in Berkeley,
and my wife, they ran it together. Mrs, Mishkin was a very
experienced and intelligent person. We started and we learned
from our mistakes. We had people looking over our shoulders, but
we did what we thought was right, and became successful. Today it
is the largest institute of its kind in the United States. Many
universities have introduced similar courses.
I believe I told you already that we had over a hundred
universities and colleges write to us over the last few years.
They wanted to know how we did it. They learned about us through
the journals of higher education in which the Institute was often
mentioned. Of course, we couldn't respond in a letter, we
wouldn't have had the personnel. So, that's the way this booklet
was designed and it is still sent to everyone who is interested,
because we don't take any pride in ownership in having had this
idea first. We want it to spread because if it does, then it
shows that we have done it right.
Dorfman: It certainly is beautifully done. It's most specific. Were sites
other than the University of San Francisco considered for that
institution?
Fromm: We did look around, but when we came to the University of San Fran
cisco, we saw that was the ideal place and they wanted us there
very badly. So, we felt it would be a good home for us and over the
eleven years that the institute has been active, it has proven so.
Dorfman: Why did you feel it would be a good home?
Preom: Well, it's easily accessible, and many of our students don't drive
or don't have a car. So, that was important. The institute
appealed to the university very much. So, we felt we would be in
good hands even though we are completely independent. We are
still on the campus — they are our hosts.
31
Fromm: So for those students who drive, there has been parking space at a
very low rate. And we always have worked well with the top
executives, particularly with Father John Le Schiavo, the
university's president.
Dorfman: How has the institute changed over the years?
Fromm: It has. of course, increased its size since we began in 1976. We
have added many more additional courses requested by our students.
Today, the Fromm Institute is really a small university within a
larger university because our courses are on a very high academic
level and generally on a much higher level than those offered to
the undergraduates. We are attracting an older intelligent group.
Anybody can enter, and we have some outstanding people in our
student body. So very many older people are lonely or all by
themselves, but here, they make new acquaintances. They are
together with their peers and they take care of each other. The
most important thing to them is that they again lead a structured
and meaningful life.
One of the reasons that the institute has developed is the
large pool of retired professors on which we can draw from
Berkeley, Stanford, San Francisco State University, and others.
We have outstanding master teachers, all emeriti professors. For
instance, if anyone of the students is sick, then the students,
who have their own association, they find out and visit the
person. They share transportation wherever it's possible. They
run their own affairs where they go on trips together. So, it's
quite a social situation involved there, too.
Dorfman: Sounds like a strong support system.
Fromm: Yes. Well, you know, we have a lot of retired teachers who have
been retired now for twenty, twenty-five years. Either they
weren't married, or if they were, the husband had died. If they
had children, their children often live in some ether place in the
United States, in New Jersey, or God knows where. And quite a few
times people have come up to my wife and said, "Mrs. Fremm, you
saved my life." So she said, "Vhat did I do for you?" They would
say, "I was ready to commit suicide. I had absolutely nothing to
live for. I'm all by myself and why should I go on?" Now you
should see how they really have blossomed out, how those elder
people see life in an entirely different way. Of course, we have
one problem that no one has yet solved: we have more women than men.
Dorfman: Why is that a problem?
Fromm: Well, we would like to have more men because since we have about
one-third men, the ladies dress a little better. They put a
little rouge on and they become women again which many really
weren't for so many years.
32
Dorfman: It's interesting, isn't it?
Fromm: Yes, those are the little experiences, Mrs. Dorfman, that we have.
You don't have to be a professor of psychology. You know, it's
good common sense. That's what we try to employ.
And they go on trips. They have been in Ashland at the
Shakespeare Festival. They go down to the aquarium in Monterey.
They go to the senate in Sacramento. There is always something
going on.
We have something that, I think, is unique — not done by any
other institution. We have what we call the Brown Bag Luncheons.
They are a series of lectures by outstanding professors from the
University of California Medical School for about an hour. We pay
them a hundred dollars for the lectures. These are people who get
many times more for a lecture but most of them send their fee back
and send an additional check with it.
The subjects of these lectures are particularly tailored to
be of interest to older people. It was organized by a retired
professor of medicine of the University of California Medical
School, who is a student of the Institute. We have been doing
this now for a few years.
Dorfman: Whose innovation was that?
Fromm: I think my wife had a lot to do with it because students would
come to her and say, I have this ailment and that ailment. So,
Hanna thought, maybe there is something that one can do. Those
lectures are very well attended and there is no cost. People can
eat their sandwich while the lectures go on. And the professors
enjoy it, too. It has grown from Brown Bag Luncheons to a regular
course.
Dorfman: That's marvelous.
Fromm: And then we had the same with legal courses. What is particularly
important for older people? How to make a lease, or about
insurance, or whatever is important for them to know: If you sell
a house, or how to make a will, and all those kinds of things,
because most of our students couldn't afford to go to an attorney.
So, we give them this general information.
We have had very many other lecturers like Clifton Fadiman
and Art Hoppe and many other outstanding people, people in the art
and music world, like Kurt Herbert Adler, the former General
Director of the San Francisco Opera. Since we have some students
who are also docents from the Fine Arts Museum and the De Young,
they arre'ige student body visits to the museums and give a really
good explanation of the exhibits and the museum.
33
Fromm :
Dor f man:
Fromm :
Dorfman:
Fromm :
Dorfman:
Fromm:
Dorfman
Fromm:
There are a lot of activities. "From the Rooftop" is a weekly
publication that tells the students everything that's going en at
the Institute. It's mostly written by the students themselves.
We are very anxious to create the feeling that this is a large
family because that's what they don't have anymore, most of them.
It certainly has provided a network.
Yes, and there are really many people who have come to my wife.
particularly, and to me, too, who said this was one of the
greatest things that happened in their later years.
That's understandable. Isn't it?
Well, it has done them some good,
had something to do with it.
It makes us feel good that we
Dorfman:
It must be a great source of satisfaction to you and Mrs. Fromm.
You told me that the Fromm Institute has been a model for ether
institutes. Which institutes come to mind?
All those institutes, all those universities and colleges which
wrote to us and didn't know exactly how to go about it. We sent
"The Fremm Institute for Lifelong Learning; A Guide and Model,"
(published at the University of San Francisco, San Francisco,
California, 1982) to them. We get a lot of inquiries and people
from all over the country and abroad, too, ask us for information.
What university has an institute that most closely — ?
Almost every large university today has some sort of adult
education. But not in the same structured way as we have.
Now, for instance, we don't know absenteeism. Our students,
almost dead or alive, they will come because it means so much to
them. That was the reason, too, that we charge an annual fee of
only a hundred and fifty dollars which is for twenty-four weeks of
instruction. They can take four courses so you can take ninety-
six classes for a hundred and fifty dollars. It's about one
dollar and fifty cents per class. However, the amount it costs
us, per student, is between nine-hundred and a thousand dollars.
So that's what we have to make up per year. In 1987 we have to
charge $200 to help our deficit.
We have an annual fundraising dinner or we ask some
foundations and some friends to help, but the financial burden is
to the largest extent on us.
Now, the Elder Hostels that we find on college campuses today, did
they have their beginnings in the Fromm Institute?
34
Fromm: I don't think so. We get quite a few students from there. For
instance, we make available ten scholarships free to the Jewish
Home for the Aged. They arrange for the transportation and well,
whatever has to be done — even though some of them come in on
walkers. There are some, eighty or eighty-five years old, you
know, absolutely amazing people. Their minds are as clear as can
be, highly intelligent and a real inspiration.
The Future; Increased Education of Older Adults
Derfman: It really proves the point. Doesn't it?
Fromm: Yes, that if you are old, or even if you have some physical
disabilities that life has not ended.
Dorfman: And what do you predict, from all of your experience, for the
future in adult education?
Fromm: There will be more and more, almost everywhere, because there are
so many more older people. In 1984, we already had twenty-eight
million people in America between sixty-five and eighty-five. By
the year 2000, you'll have almost twice as many. Just look
around, those people are here and something has to be done for
them. This is gradually being recognized. The government, of
course, often recognizes things late. Then they do a survey
spending a tremendous amount of money to find out something we all
knew al ready.
But it is a tremendous social problem that has to be
addressed. The people in Washington understand that something has
to be done. But nothing has been done under the present
administration. There is hardly any money available for things of
that sort.
We always felt that private enterprise had to carry the load.
For instance, we never have asked nor have we ever accepted one
penny of public funds. We could have gotten public funds from
Washington or Sacramento, but we always felt it was a great
mistake because if you get public funds, then politics comes into
play. They tell you whom to take — such and such a professor
should be taken — and all that kind of underhanded influence.
Dorfman: Is there one thing that has impressed you most about the Fromm
Institute en the University of San Francisco campus?
Fremm: Well, that's hard to say. What impresses me is at those meetings,
and I'm sometimes t'-ere, how happy the people are, and how many
friendships have been formed, a very good racial and religious mix.
-
35
Fromm: We have a small percentage of Jewish people, naturally. But the
largest percentage of our students is non- Jewish. And they all
get along very well. It's really a group of contented people that
has become much happier than they were and really look forward te
getting additional education.
Of course, some of them are really challenged. The
professors love it because they don't have te teach those often
semi-literate undergraduates. The people who come to us are
intelligent people and generally educated people.
Dorfman: What about the racial mix?
Fromm: Well, we have almost everybody. We have at present Chinese and
Filipinos and people from all over. I don't think we have blacks
right now even though they are most welcome. There is absolutely
no barrier to anyone to join.
Dorfman: So it could change from day te day?
Fromm: Oh, yes.
Dorfman: What are the future plans for the institute at this point?
Fromm: The future plan is to maintain it if we are net here anymore. We
are trying to make the necessary preparations in our wills so that
the money, the cash is available to maintain the institute. We
feel it is something of importance and will become more and more
important. It is being realized that it is a national problem
that something has to be done about, in fact it is worldwide.
The Koret Living Library
Dorfman: You lent me another book, Scenes From Our Lives which is a rich
anthology. That's from materials in the Koret Library, published
in 1983.
Fromm: The Koret Foundation gave us some years back, a grant of a hundred
thousand dollars. Mr. Koret was still alive at that time and
almost our neighbor in Seacliff. I said te him, this was
something that was very important and would carry his name.
Then we had a small mention in the publication of the
American Association of Retired People, AARP. It's a giant
organization. It just said the Fromm Institute will accept
unpublished manuscripts from people over fifty years. Now you
wouldn't believe that in two months we got more than eleven
thousand submissions including submissions from twenty-one foreign
36
Fremm: countries, some of them behind the Iron Curtain, A lot of it is
material that is not of value for our purpose, particularly seme
poetry that some ladies thought was very important. But we have
some real nuggets.
That anthology that I gave you, those were all stories
written by our students. Those eleven thousand submissions had to
be read and classified. This has been done now. Now we will
publish another anthology before too long, if we have some extra
money, because we really have some gold nuggets. There are some
interesting writings from people between fifty and ninety years
old.
Dorfman: That's wonderful. And all of those submissions are housed in the
Koret Library?
Fromm: In the University of San Francisco, yes.
Dorfman: I'd like to ask you about the Koret Library again. What else does
it contain in addition to the eleven thousand submissions?
Fromm: That's all there is, but the library has grown to about 14,000
manuscripts.
Dorfman: And how does this come to be housed on the — ?
Fromm: Well, the Gleeson Library on the University of San Francisco
campus is very large and we have some space there.
This material will become, ultimately, a valuable source of
information for psychologists, social scientists and
gerontolo gists because it gives you the thinking and the
experiences of older people. What we wanted particularly are
their life histories. In seme ways it is a pity if this all gets
lost. However, Mrs. Dorfman, I believe this might be more
interesting to the grandchildren than it would be to the children
of the authors because they often want to know their roots, where
do they come from and all that. Now that we have it classified,
it's available to the people who are interested in it. But this
is all a fairly new thing in America. Ultimately, the Koret
Living Library, which is part of the Fromm Institute, will become
an important factor because it has hands-on information, you know.
It's not a novel or anything, but these are actual people who
write about their lives.
Dorfman: Yes, the details of day-to-day life not available on library
shelves today. What else can you add about the Fromm Institute?
Fromm: Well, we would like to give additional classes. We don't want to
see the institute become toe l-?.rge because one of the important
factors of the institute is the personal contact with my wife and
v
37
with Professor Dennis, who is the program director and a well known
scholar. So many older people are lonely and want to talk to
someone. My wife is there at least three days a week. She's the
Executive Director of the institute. People come up and talk to
her and tell her about their children or their grandchildren or
the wars or whatever happens in daily life. The fact that they
can talk to someone who is listening is sometimes ef great help.
People often say to her, "You have dene so much for me." And my
wife always says, "Well, I haven't done anything for you." But
it's important for people.
When we had our tenth annversary in February of 1985, the
student body organized a big luncheon at the Officers' CLub in
Fort Mason, a thank-you affair. We were given some pictures that
some students had painted and other things. There were a lot of
speeches and I spoke, too, and told them what our life experience
was. When you do certain things, sometimes people think it all
came, very easy. We didn't inherit any money and we had no money
to start, as everything was taken away from us. Later on, after
the war was over, my father got some restitution, but it was only
a small percentage of what he had. He had been a very wealthy
man.
We do those things because we see the need for it and we were
fortunate enough to be able to do it.
38
IV THE FROMM INSTITUTE FOR LIFELONG LEARNING. MARTIN BUBER
INSTITUTE. HEBREW UNIVERSITY, JERUSALEM. ISRAEL, 1985
Dorfman: What was the purpose of your recent trip with Mrs. Fromm?
Fromm: My wife and I went to Jerusalem for the dedication of the Fromm
Institute for Life- long Learning at the Martin Buber Institute for
Adult Education at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. It was
shortly after the sixtieth anniversary of the Hebrew University.
They gave a luncheon attended by about eighty or ninety people.
Quite a few people spoke who had attended the institute (where
classes had already begun). There were about three hundred and
fifty students at that time, and they estimated a thousand
students within a year or two.
The reason for that is that there are large numbers of older
people in Israel and many of them want to work at developing a
second career. This is being done. The lectures are in Hebrew
and in English. There is a tremendous demand in Israel, even more
so than in the United States because you have, percentage-wise,
more older people in Israel than you have here — the parents of the
younger refugees who came over.
In order to integrate them into the Israeli way of life, they
are looking for something to do. There are jobs available. They
do not pay much. For instance, in hospitals, in old age homes, in
doing something in kindergartens, doing something for retarded
children. There are a lot of things where older people,
particularly women, can fit in very well and can do a very
impressive job. With the economic situation in Israel very grim,
if they can make fifty or a hundred dollars extra a month, it's of
tremendous help to them.
Derfman: How else does the purpose of the Fromm Institute in Israel differ
from that of the Fromm Institute at the University of San
Francisco?
>
THE NORTHERN CAUFORNIA JEWISH BULLETIN
June 15, 1984
BVGE15
350 pay tribute to Fromms at Scopus dinner
More than 350 people came to pay tri
bute to Hanna and Alfred Fronun and
Hebrew University Chancellor Avraham
Harman at the Annual Scopus Dinner of
American Friends of the Hebrew Univer
sity on May 31 at the Hilton Hotel.
The Fromms received the Torch of
Learning Award for their support of the
University, most notably for their establish
ment of the Fromm Institute for Lifelong
Learning.
The Fromm Institute was modeled after
a similar program the couple established at
the University of San Francisco in 1975.
The couple has been active in the Jewish
community and in general philanthropy.
Hanna Fromm chairs the Fromm Institute
and Alfred Fromm chairs the new Jewish
Community Museum. They also were the
founders of the San Francisco Wine
Museum.
Harman, former Israeli Ambassador to
the United States, was presented with an
honorary doctorate of public service from
USF. The chancellor has been instrumen
tal in establishing joint programs with USF
as well as relations between Vatican Jesuit
institutions in Rome and Hebrew Univer
sity.
USF's president, Father John LoSchiavo,
outlined is university's links with the Jeru
salem school, including joint summer pro
grams and the Fromm Institutes.
"USF is twice as old as Hebrew Univer
sity," Harman said, "but we share one
characteristic in common. I understand
USF's first university in this area was
rebuilt after the 1906 earthquake more
powerful and stronger than before.
"In the same way, Hebrew University
was hit by a different 'earthquake' (the
1948 War of Independence) and was
deprived of its original building for many
Honor** Avrsham Hacman (toft), Hanna Fromm, Tad Twos, Alfred Fromm and Carotins Fromm
Lurto at trw Scopus Dinner awards presentation.
"But both proved the university is not a
physical facility; it is a community of
scholars and students."
Harman, too, paid tribute to the Fromms
and "the new bond of USF and Hebrew
University" in the Fromm Institute.
-
38a
. . •
Fromms give grant to Hebrew U.
to open USF prototype school
The establishment of the Fromm Institute
for Lifelong Learning at the Martin Buber
School for Adult Education has been
established at the Hebrew University of
Jerusalem, it was announced by Carl
Pearlstein, president of the Northwestern
State Region of the American Friends of
Hebrew University.
This development was made possible
through a grant from Alfred and Hanna
Fromm of San Francisco.
The Fromm Institute for Lifelong Learn
ing, under the directorship of Mrs. Fromm,
has been in operation at the University of
San Francisco for a number of years, enabl
ing older and retired people to continue
learning and self-improvement; to utilize
leisure time in a constructive and creative
way; to offer the opportunity to acquire
skills and knowledge; and to further self-
expression and fulfillment during the sec
ond half of life. All courses are taught by
professors emeriti.
The Buber Institute focuses on stim
ulating independent thinking and judge
ment, assists in cultural absorption of
newcomers and ethnic groups in Israel,
works for good human relations between
Jews and Arabs and encourages an on
going dialogue between various groups,
contributes to dosing the social and
cultural gap between Israelis and en
courages and fosters lifelong learning" in a
changing society.
The Institute carries out these aims by
means of extension work in various areas
of adult and continuing education. It con
ducts summer courses and study groups
for the general public, community leaden
and professionals and organizes seminars
for groups from abroad. It initiates research
and pilot projects in adult education, runs
an Arab- Jewish community center in Jeru
salem and cooperates with various bodies
interested and active in adult education.
The work of the Institute is supervised by
an Academic Committee comprising rep
resentatives of the Hebrew University and
the Ministry of Education and Culture.
The Fromm Institute wiD develop and ex
tend the Martin Buber School by 1,000 ad
ditional students and an enriched cur
riculum. Li recognition of the Fromms'
commitment to the Hebrew University,
they will be presented with the Torch of
Learning Award at the Annual Scopus Din
ner and Ball on Thursday, May 31.
California Jewish Bulletin. April 27, 1984
39
Fromm: The purpose is basically the same except that recently, they
revised the age at which people can join the institute. At first,
it was fifty years, the same as the Fromm Institute at the
University of San Francisco. But now they have reduced it to age
forty for the reasons that I just mentioned. That has worked out
very well for them.
Dorfman: And when did planning for the institute in Israel begin?
Fromm: About 1983.
Dorfman: And it opened for students in 1985.
Fromm: Yes, yes.
Dorfman: And how did the idea come about?
Fromm: Well, when we were in Israel two years ago, my wife and I talked
to a number of people and we could see there would be tremendous
demand for the service we provide. And we talked to some of the
people at the university and we talked to the president of the
university, Don Pattinkin, and to Mr. Harmon, the chancellor and
former president of the university. They strongly encouraged us
and said the need was urgent. It's a great financial undertaking
for us because they certainly don't have any money over there to
run an institute of this kind.
There is a large sum of money involved for us, in funding
this — which we have already done to a substantial extent. And
we'll do the rest as quickly as we can.
Dorfman: Was there anyone else involved?
Fromm: The office of the Hebrew University in San Francisco. Mr. Roy
Calder, the director here, was very instrumental in promoting this
situation, talked to me and my wife a few times. Then when we
came to Israel we saw how necessary it was to do something of that
sort.
It was, for my wife and me, another important reason: we
first founded and funded the Fromm Institute for Lifelong Learning
at the University of San Francisco, a Jesuit university. We felt
this was a small way of repayment to the United States which has
done so much for us — to have the institution here. However, we
always looked for a linkage. What should we do as American
citizens and as Jews? And this was the right opportunity for us
in Israel to fund this. And that has given us now that linkage
between an American citizen and Jew.
40
Comparison to San Francisco Program
Dorfman: Does the structure of the institute in Israel differ from that of
the structure of the institute in San Francisco?
Fromm: In some ways it does. Conditions are different over there. But
basically the idea is the same: to find a place where older
people can get the ways and means to again lead constructive and
structured lives, too. If people don't do anything, they
deteriorate very fast mentally and physically, particularly over
there, because the climate is so extreme.
Israel is a very small country. The climate is very, very
hot for a long time. So, people age quite fast there. And we
could see that an institute would be of great help to many people.
Dorfman: In what ways specifically would you say that the structure is
different?
Fromm: Well, an Israeli university is not exactly the same as a United
States university. Basically, of course, it's all to give
instruction to young people, in this case to older people. But
our institute here has more social aspects than the one in Israel.
In San Francisco at the university, we only have something like
three hundred students who are taught exclusively by retired
professors of very high standing. Our courses are on a very high
academic level here. Now in Israel, the instruction is not given
exclusively by emeriti professors, but by professors who are at
the university who are not yet retired. That's probably the main
difference. The courses given are in many ways for more practical
purposes than the ones we do here.
Dorfman: Yes, that's what I read.
Fromm: Right.
Dorfman: Now you did speak to me about more mature adults relating at USF
with younger students within the cafeteria and other meeting
places. How does that take place in Israel?
Fromm: Well, it's the same. They can use all the facilities of the
university as students of the Fromm Institute in Israel. We
always thought that it was very important that older people
interact with younger people because if you segregate older people
then they really feel old. But the fact that they are surrounded
by thousands of young students, it reminds them of their children
or their grandchildren. Segregation is a very dangerous thing,
particularly for old people.
Dorfman: How did the cost and the financing differ?
41
Fromm :
Dorfman:
Fromm:
Dorfman
Fromm :
Dorfman;
Fromm :
Dorfman:
Fromm :
Dorfman:
Fromm:
Well, in Israel they charge a limited amount ©f money to attend
courses at the institute. There are some scholarships. Whereas
in San Francisco, we have more than twenty percent of eur students
on scholarships because we never turn anyone away for financial
reasons. This is very important to many people.
Anyone who wishes to join the institute in San Francisco for
the joy of learning is welcome. We have all kinds of people. We
have a retired butcher. We have a retired window washer. We have
retired professors from the University of California, the Medical
School. We have businessmen. We have a lot of retired teachers.
And all that because there was really no place where instruction
on such a high academic level as we provide was available at a
very affordable cost to older and retired people.
And what percentage of the students in Israel might be on
financial scholarships?
I don't know yet how much money will be available for
scholarships. It will, I think, greatly depend on some help that
we have to extend after the institute is completely funded.
What about the issues involved in developing the institutes.
did they differ from the issues in San Francisco?
How
Well, some of them are more practical in Israel than the ones that
we have here, as I mentioned before. So, many people in Israel
joined the institute there at the Hebrew University because they
wanted to learn some new skills.. This is less here in the United
States.
What were the problems that had to be overcome?
There really were no problems after we discussed this with various
professors who run the Martin Buber Institute at the Hebrew
University. We quite easily came to an understanding. The
problem was the financing which we have solved, too.
In every successful enterprise as valuable as the Fromm Institute,
there must be disappointments. What were the disappointments?
Well, so far it is a young institute (in Israel),
know of any yet.
We really don't
In your opinion, what has been the most important change or
innovation in college or university education since the Fromm
Institute was opened in San Francisco?
The recognition that older people have a place and that this is a
great national asset that should not be wasted. Older people can
contribute a great deal. We see it particularly here in San
42
Fromm: Francisco where our students and the young students —
undergraduates, eighteen, nineteen, twenty, twenty-two years old-
how they interact with our students in a beautiful way. Older
people have some life experience and if they have some sort of
intelligence that is a relationship that young people certainly
need. And they can profit by it.
Now, for instance, at the University of San Francisco, here,
our students can be guests at almost any course that the
university gives as long as there is space without paying for it.
Some of our students have achieved college degrees which they
could not complete before because our students are of the
Depression generation. And very many of them started college and
never could finish because they had to go to work and make a
living. We had at the institute some people that never received
their high school diplomas because they had to go to work when they
were thirteen or fourteen years old. We give them special
instruction and make it posssible for them to get their high
school diplomas. This was of enormous importance to them.
We had one case, a butcher who sent his five children through
college. And he said to my wife, "Well, Mrs. Fromm, I really need
to get some education myself so I can talk to my children."
-
43
V CULTURAL CONTRIBUTIONS
[Interview 3: July 23, 1985]
Judah Magnes Memorial Museum, Berkeley
Dorfman: In 1982. Elinor Mandelson interviewed you at the Wine Museum about
your involvement with the Judah L. Magnes Museum. You spoke of
discussing various problems that confronted Seymour Fromer, its
director, and of assisting him. Could you tell me more about that
particular time?
Fromm: Well, I've known Seymour Fromer for more than twenty-five years.
He started the museum with nothing. He is an outstanding man in
putting something together that very few people could.
I have helped Magnes Museum in various ways, not only through
financial contributions. In the beginning, they had moved into
their building in Berkeley near the campus where they are now and
the mortgage fell due. They would have been foreclosed and would
have lost the building. So I went to a friend of mine, Mr. Daniel
Koshland, the well-known philanthropist, and I asked him to go
over there with me, which he did. Then Mr. Koshland, myself and
Leo Helzel, we put jointly up the money as a donation so that the
mortgage could be paid off. Afterwards, I have every year made a
contribution to the Magnes Museum up to today. I felt what Fromer
did was really outstanding work and something that was important.
The Magnes Museum, of course, is in a location that is not very
easily accessible and not very many people come to Berkeley. But
they have over the years, as it was at that time the only Jewish
museum in the Bay Area, really done an outstanding job by
collecting a lot of Jewish art. When we opened the Jewish
Community Museum here in San Francisco, in our first exhibit,
"Fifty Treasures," the Magnes Museum lent us some outstanding
artifacts that we showed at the museum in San Francisco. There is
a very friendly, cooperative, and respectful attitude that I have
toward Mr. Fromer and toward the Magnes Museum.
Dorfman: It has been said that you left a stamp of your own on Magnes.
What sort of problems did you assist with?
Freom: Well, they are mostly financial problems, and I was a sounding
board for the museum's director, Seymour Fromer.
San Francisco Jewish Community Museum
Founding
Dorfman: Let's go on now to the San Francisco Jewish Community Museum which
opened its doors on October 10, 1984, with a memorable exhibit,
"Fifty Treasures," of which you just spoke. The subtitle is
"Judaica and Hebraica from Bay Area Collections." Why don't you
begin by telling me how the idea for the museum began?
Fromm: Well, early in 1984, Brian Lurie, who is Executive Director of the
Jewish Welfare Federation, Richard Goldman who was at that time
the president of the Federation, and Frances Geballe, the daughter
of Dan Koshland, called me for a meeting. Even though I was very
busy, I agreed to help found a Jewish museum in San Francisco. I
felt this was something that had to be done- -something that did
not exist in San Francisco. And we started to work.
I have to mention especially Mr. Bernard Osher. He is the
head of Butterfield and Butterfield, a leading auction house, and
a very knowledgeable and charitable man who is doing a great job
for the museum. Our board has given substantial amounts,
including myself. You cannot ask other people if you cannot tell
them that everyone on the board has made a contribution according
to his or her means.
Dorfman: The founding board really made double contributions in term of
financial as well as their hours in their particular expertise.
In what way, for example, did Mr. Osher make a contribution with
his expertise?
Fromm: Mr. Osher is a very good and flexible businessman who knows how to
handle problems. He and I, we made the two largest financial
contributions. He knows a lot of people, and was very
instrumental in raising the funds. I would say, between my own
contributions, and those of people I know, I raised about twenty-
five percent of the present endowments so far. Bernard Osher
accounted for an additional substantial part. Of course, the
Koshland family has made a very large contribution for the
construction of the Jewish Federation building. In fact, at the
Alfred Fromm (seen left), vice president, and Daniel Koshland, (right) , a
benefactor, greet Professor Norman Bentwich (center) at the Judah L. Magnes
Museum, ca. 1962.
Photograph by Alconeda County Weekender
45
Fromm: entrance to the Federation building there is a plaque that
recognizes that the Koshland fai ily has made a large contribution
and that the museum is in honor of Daniel Koshland.
I must have, in 1984, given probably between four and five
hundred hours of working time to the museum and have continued to
do so. I was retired already at that time, but I had many other
things that I was doing. It was difficult because first there was
the question of raising enough funds for an endowment. The
interest income of an endowment would then help to defray the
expenses of the museum. This was quite difficult, but we raised
about a million, two-hundred thousand dollars. It is payable over
a period of some years and we started a founders' group. The
minimum contribution was ten thousand dollars that could be paid
over three or five years in installments.
We had many meetings to get organized and there was the need
of finding the proper director for the museum. We finally
selected Helaine Fort gang, a very good people-person and a very
nice person, too. We set up the various committees and decided
that we did not want to buy much because good Judaica is very
expensive. We decided that we would in the future try to get some
first-rate exhibits on loan, which we did, like "The Jews of
Germany" and now 'The Jews of Kaifeng."
Many other presentations took place. For instance, we built
a sukkah on top of the Federation building. It was a great
success and created tremendous interest. A let of people, Jewish
and non-Jewish, visited it. Every year at the proper time we want
to have the sukkah there because it is really a harvest festival.
Sukkot. in my mind, is really the Jewish Thanksgiving to thank for
the crops. So Thanksgiving was started by the Jews very many
years before there ever was Thanksgiving in the Western world.
Dorfman: The founding board substantially aided in the financing of the
museum. In what other ways did they help?
First Exhibit: "Fifty Treasures"
Fromm: Well, there was a question: what should our first exhibit be.
Now, one of our trustees is Joseph Goldyne who is an artist and an
art expert. And he took it upon himself to ferret out fifty
outstanding art objects. It was amazing, you know: some of the
things that some of the Jewish families had, immigrants who came
from Germany, from Austria, from Chechoslovakia, from Poland — the
Nazis let them take out those Judaica because they considered it
junk. So we were able to show some really outstanding art works.
A5a
Jewish Community Museum
FOUNDING BOARD OF TRUSTEES
Alfred Fromm, President
Guilty Azarpay
Rena Bransten
Diane B.Frankel
Frances K. Geballe
Marc E. Goldstein
Joseph R. Goldyne
Norman E. Grabstein
Jane R. Lurie
Victor L. Marcus
Phyllis Moldaw
Bernard Osher
Alice Russell- Shapiro
Alan L. Stein
RoselyneC. Swig
Steven L. Swig
Mary Zlot
Phyllis Cook, Consultant
From Fifty Treasures
Preface
THE rush of business and the pursuit of the ephemeral should always be
tempered by consideration of the timeless. Ideally, therefore, shouldn't a
museum of sorts be harbored in every office building? The Jewish
Community Federation Building has taken that step. We are delighted to
welcome the Jewish Community Museum to its first home. We are blessed by
its presence in our midst, for it infuses the building with a sense of the eternal
as it provides us with an atmosphere of learning. It should be a constant
reminder to us that Judaism is a rich heritage of lands and faces, customs and
ceremonies, intellectual triumphs and staggering setbacks. A way of life pro
grammed for survival by virtue of its compelling reason, beauty and compas
sion, it does not seek converts, but neither should it hesitate to reveal the
splendor of its tradition. Over the coming years the Jewish Community
Museum will have much to show and tell our Jewish and Gentile commu
nities about that tradition— about our Jewish way of life.
Obviously, there would have been no museum without the belief, hard
work and understanding of many individuals. At peril of offending some
marvelous people who are too numerous to properly credit here, I must thank
a precious few: the Koshland family, who gave birth to the museum to honor
the memory of a unique and wonderful man, Daniel Koshland; his daughter,
Cissie Geballe, who has been an inspiration to all; Alfred Fromm, a man of
warmth and integrity and the Museum's first president; Bernard Osher who
never says "no", may think "maybe", but always acts "yes"; Joseph Goldyne,
for his creative ability and his unflagging energy as the curator of the exhibi
tion celebrated in this, the Museum's first catalogue; Richarti Goldman,
William Lowenberg and Ron Kaufman, the Federation presidents whose
stewardship saw the Museum to its successful opening; Helaine Fortgang, the
Director of the Jewish Community Museum, whose ability, patience and
kindness have been demonstrated to all those who have worked with her in
this exciting enterprise. Finally, I would like to credit those members of the
Museum's first board who were called to serve an institution that did not exist.
Thanks to them, it does now. Mazel Tov!
RABBI BRIAN LURIE
Executive Director, Jewish Community Federation
46
Fromm: This was a great success, the first. We got a let of publicity
from it because the important thing in a Jewish musem. is to show
the Jewish the non-Jewish people, too, our culture and tradition.
In this way. I think, it contributes substantially to better
understanding. And a better understanding is something which is
very important because very many people don't know anything about
Jews.
A Jewish museum should make a contribution to the cultural
life of the city for Jew and non-Jew alike.
Difficulties
Fromm: Well, there were the usual obstacles. If you have to create
something entirely new, there's a tremendous amount of work to
setting it up properly, to distribute the work load, to ask people
who are very conversant with Jewish art works to help. This is
something where I have very limited knowledge. We have some very
good people on the board who are art experts. But Joseph Goldyne
was the one who almost singlehandedly put this first exhibit
together, and did a tremendous amount of work. He and his family,
in addition, have made some very sizable contributions of very
valuable art works to the museum.
Dorfman: According to the forward of the publication we just talked about,
the goal of the founding board of trustees was to create a museum
that presents exhibitions and creates programs which interpret
Jewish values, beliefs, traditions and cultures. What are the
specifics of implementing that goal?
Exhibit: "The Jews of Germany"
Fromm: Well, it's the various exhibits that we have shown, together with
good catalogs. For instance, the largest exhibit that we've had
so far was the "Jews of Germany" which was put together by a Dr.
Roland KLemig, a gentile who was an officer in the German army,
but was for five years a Russian prisoner. When he came back, he
found out what had happened during the Holocaust and thought that
was something that had to be aired in public. So he finally got
the German government to finance this and he did this large
catalog with the cooperation of the German government agencies,
Jewish scholars in Israel and other countries. He was in Israel
quite a few times to get information that he needed and with
scholars from the United States and, in fact, the cooperation of
scholars from all over the world.
SAN £ZS FRANCISCO
CHAMBER OF COMMERCE
46a
February 11, 1986
Mr. Alfred Frcrm
655 Montgomery Street, Suite 1720
San Francisco, CA 94111
Dear Mr. From:
The Arts and Culture Council of the San Francisco Chamber of Cormerce is very
pleased to inform you that you have been selected as the winner of the 1986
award for outstanding achievement in behalf of the arts as an individual busi
ness leader. Previous winners have included J. Gary Snansby, L. J. Tannenbaun,
and Modesto Lanzone.
You were nominated by the Jewish Corrranity Museum for your unfailing assistance
in establishing the museum and for bringing the exhibition "Jews of Germany" to
San Francisco. In addition, your steadfast support of the entire arts community
was mentioned, including specifically your service on the boards of San Francisco
Opera and the Conservatory of Music and the creation of the From Institute for
Lifelong Learning. The jurors joined the nomination with numerous examples of
your continuing and inspirational support to the arts and the enhanced quality
of life in the Bay Area.
The awards luncheon will be held on Thursday, Maxell 13, 1986, at the San Fran
cisco Hilton Hotel. Each winner is asked to attend personally to accept the
award and to make a brief acceptance speech not tc exceed one minute. We will
also be honor ing several businesses, three arts organizations and our special
guest of honor, Miss Cynthia Gregory of American Ballet Theatre.
A reception for special guests will be held at 11:00 a.m. in the East Lounge at
the hotel. You and your wife are invited to join us at that time. Members of
the San Francisco press will also be invited. We ask that everyone be present
by 11:45 as you will be seated at the head table. We will make arrangements
for your wife and any other special guests to be seated in the luncheon audience.
If you are unable to attenf., please designate a spokesperson to receive the award
on your behalf. Vfe would appreciate knowing the name of this person as soon as
possible.
While we hope you will share this news with close colleagues and family, please
note that the winners are confidential and will be announced for the first tine
publicly at the luncheon.
Again, please accept our1 congratulations. We look, forward to having you with
us on the 13th.
Sincerely,
Ilichaela Cassidy, Chair
Awards Cccmittee
Nancy Meier, Manager
Arts and Culture Council
465 CALIFORNIA STRUT, 9TH FLOOR
SAN FRANCISCO. CA 94104. (415)392-4511
47
Fromm: The exhibit is a history of the Jews going back to the Crusades up
to the Holocaust, about a thousand years. Jews always were
persecuted, murdered, and driven out of their homes. It shows,
too, that anti-Semitism was not invented by Hitler. It has
existed for a thousand years.
We invited quite a number of high schools to come in because
we wanted the younger people who very often don't know anything
about Jews, to see the exhibit. I think it had one good lesson
that something like the Holocaust should not happen again,
hopefully. It shows also the great contribution that the Jewish
people made when they got full citizenship rights which was in
1869. The Jews in Germany made tremendous contributions in
medicine, in law, in science, in music, in the arts, and in
business. And the emergence of Germany as a world power between
1870 and 1933 was very much fostered by Jewish people.
In one way, I have always felt if people have a better
understanding of each other, that this is also some contribution
ultimately to peace.
Dorfman: I understand that the museum will have only a small permanent
collection.
Fromm: So far we have. But ultimately we will have quite a number of
bequests. Many of those art works that were shown in "Fifty
Treasures" will hopefully end up with our museum as part of the
permanent collection.
But you cannot accumulate a permanent collection overnight.
It takes years to get this done. One day we hope also to have
some extra funds so that we can acquire certain artifacts that are
not available otherwise. The Stuart Moldaw family donated a
beautiful bronze statue of "Hagar" that stands at the entrance to
the museum. It is one of the important works of Jacob Epstein and
of great value.
Dorfman: Yes, and you will have the space to house these materials?
Fr omm : Ye s .
"The Jews of Kaifeng, China"
Dorfman: Tell me about "The Jews of Kaifeng" exhibit.
Fromm: A most interesting story. It's really a Jewish tribe. They are
Chinese. When you look at them, they look like any other Chinese.
And they were there for a thousand years. There were two thousand
48
Fromm: of them when it was flourishing and then today, it is a small
community. But they are Jewish, and they had a temple and we will
have a picture exhibit of their synagogue that we are getting from
the Museum of the Diaspora in Tel Aviv. We are in close touch
with the Chinese community, with the Chinese Cultural Center
because that's a joint undertaking. What it should do is to
encourage the Jewish community and the Chinese community to know
each ether better and to enter into a joint project. Those are
things that are very dear to my heart; I think I can do some good.
Dorfman: That's a wonderful goal because that's something that has never
been done before.
Fromm: No, but I think it's necessary, and we will ultimately do it with
other ethnic groups because the Jews are a minority and we need as
many friends as we can get. I don't expect other people to do
anything for us, but at least I don't want people to be against
us. When you come from Germany, this is a philosophy which you
can well understand.
Dorfman: Yes. What other ethnic groups do you hope to — ?
Fromm: Well, we don't know yet. It has to have some Jewish connection
because we are a Jewish museum. But, for now, we had "The Jews of
Germany," now we are going to have "The Jews of China." And we
are looking around to see what is available and then see if we can
bring it ever. We have some plans to have exhibits that have
great local interest.
Dorfman: I would like to know more about the intergenerational docent
program and how the candidates, both older and younger, are
recruited.
Fromm: I would say they are mostly teenagers. But they take to it like a
duck to water. [laughter] It's interesting for them and if work
can interest young people, then they will do something.
This was something that Helaine Fortgang started very
successfully where we have old and young people working together.
Some of the foundations in California have given us some funds
toward this effort because they feel that this is an important
contribution.
Dorfman: How are the participants recruited?
Fromm: We have a number of docents, all are very well briefed. Before an
exhibit opens they are always addressed — for instance, in the case
of "Fifty Treasures" Dr. Goldyne explained to the docents what it
all meant. In the exhibit, The Jews of Germany," Dr. KLemig
talked to them. I also did. Rabbi Joseph Asher gave a brilliant
-
Fromm:
Dorfman:
Fromm:
Dorfman:
Fromm:
Dorfman:
Fromm:
Dorfman;
49
discourse. We give them a large amount of information so when
they show people around, they really know what the exhibit
represents.
How young are the docents in that program?
They are mostly retired people with interest in the arts and lots
of life experience.
Helaine Fortgang wrote in "Fifty Treasures", "Alfred Fromm has
chaired our board with dignity and wisdom. His thoughtful
response to a difficult question has frequently averted crisis and
inspired solutions." What did she mean by that?
It is natural that there are always problems coming up. I have
tried to help Helaine, of whom I think very highly, to see what
could be done. When difficult matters came up, as they always do,
and where she didn't know just which way to go, we sat together to
find the answer. A museum director — we are a new organization —
always needs some help.
Is there anything in particular that comes to mind?
in which you helped Helaine Fortgang?
A situation
There were personal questions very often, and of course, financial
problems that came up continuously.
Then in another quotation from that publication, mention is made
of preservation of the past as an inspiration for our future.
Will oral histories will be included?
Fromm: We haven't planned on this yet. But we are young and it might
develop. It's done over at Judah Magnes Museum and we don't want
to be in competition with them.
Criteria in Accepting Gifts
Fromm: There's one situation which we have very strongly endorsed: that
if we accept gifts or if we acquire something for any one of our
exhibits, they have to be of the very highest quality. If they
are not, it defeats the purpose of the museum.
Dorfman: And included in the quality would be the aesthetic, the historic
and also the condition? Mention is made that some pieces were not
included simply because of the condition.
Fromm: Yes, we rejected a number of art works that we felt would not be
proper to exhibit because a Jewish museum is always looked upon
50
Fronm: critically by ether people and we have to do a better job than
just any new museum would otherwise do.
Derfman: Were there pieces in particular that come to mind that might have
been rejected because of condition that you would like very much
to have had?
Fromm: Joseph Goldyne made the selection and whatever he felt was not of
the first quality as far as condition is concerned or as far as
historical value, he rejected. [break] — you can get twenty-five
shabbas lamps. You can get many things of that sort that have no
particular value. If you have one really good one, that's all you
should have.
Dorfman: It is said that you always saw the complex side of design and
growth of the museum. How did you participate in the design of
the museum and the growth?
Fromm: The building for the Federation was opened a year earlier than the
museum. The museum was built with experts from Skidmore, Owings,
and Merrill. We had many meetings with them in order to get all
the things the way they should be done. I would say that Joseph
Goldyne was particularly helpful in this respect. A very helpful
representative of Walter Shorenstein, the owner of Milton Meyer
and Co., was available to us without cost.
Sukkah Competition
Dorfman: Earlier you mentioned the competition for the design of the
sukkah, which was judged by a jury. The winning entry, of course,
was submitted by the distinguished architect, Stanley Saitowitz.
Whose idea was the competition?
Fromm: I don't remember who mentioned it first, but it was discussed at
great length in the board meetings. We had great help from Mark
Goldstein who is one of the top partners of Skidmore, Owings, and
Merrill, the architects. He was very helpful until recently when
he retired from the board for health reasons. He supervised the
construction and the physical layout of the museum, and also made
a sizable financial contribution.
Dorfman: Of the museum itself. I wondered in what way you related with
Mr. Goldstein about The Sukkah Competition.
Fromm: Well, we discussed it at great length and the prize was a trip to
Israel for two which Mr. Saitowitz woa That worked out very
well, and there was tremendous public interest shown.
50a
ON WEDNESDAY, JULY 27, 1984, A
COMPETITION FOR THE DESIGN OF A
SUKKAH WAS JUDGED AT THE JEWISH
COMMUNITY MUSEUM, SAN FRANCISCO. THE
COMPETITION WAS SPONSORED BY THE
MUSEUM AND BY THE ARCHITECTURAL FIRM
OF SKIDMORE, OWINGS & MERRILL THE
DECISION OF THE JURY WAS BASED ON
THEOLOGICAL, STRUCTURAL AND AESTHETIC
CRITERIA, AND THE WINNING ENTRY WAS
CONSTRUCTED ON THE ROOF OF THE NEW
JEWISH COMMUNITY FEDERATION BUILDING
WHICH HOUSES THE MUSEUM. THIS
CATALOGUE DOCUMENTS THE COMPETITION
AND THE ENTRIES OF THE PARTICIPANTS.
From Sukkdh Competition
5 Ob
PARTICIPANTS
JOAN BROWN
SUSIE COLIVER
JEREMY KOTAS
TOBY LEVY
ANTHONY PANTALEONI
STANLEY SAITOWITZ
KEITH WILSON
SUSIE COLIVER AND TOBY LEVY WORKED TOGETHER ON A SINGLE ENTRY AND
JEREMY KOTAS AND ANTHONY PANTALEONI SUBMITTED A JOINT PROPOSAL ON
BEHALF OF THEIR FIRM, KOTAS/PANTALEONI, ARCHITECTS
* *
GARY APOTHEKER, ARTIST, PROVIDED TECHNICAL ADVICE AND ASSISTANCE WITH
FABRICATION TO JOAN BROWN
STEVE BARONIAN, ANNE CHABLIS, LOUIS MOTA, SHARON ROGERS, ERIC SAIJO,
JOSEPH PANTALEONI AND ARMANDO VASQUEZ PARTICIPATED IN THE DESIGN AND
PRODUCTION OF THE KOTAS/PANTALEONI ENTRY
DANIEL LUIS AND FRANK WANG HELPED STANLEY SAITOWITZ WITH HIS ENTRY
50c
STATEMENT BY
STANLEY SAITOWITZ
The IDEA for the Sukkah is derived from an interpretation of the
texts.
The DESIGN is a 'TREE' which branches into a 'STAR.'
The people should dwell in booths for
seven days so that your generations may
know that I made the children of Israel STAR, which identifies
to dwell in booths when I brought them out the childen of Israel.
of the land of Egypt.'
Take the fruit of goodly trees, bran
ches of palm trees and boughs of thick TREE, the tree of life
trees and willows of the brook, and etc.
rejoice before the Lord.'
The ROOF is discussed first because conceptually it is the
critical feature of the Sukkah':
'One should be able to view the stars from within the Sukkah.'
The entire roof must be made of organic material. Remember to
let the stars shine through.'
The support structure for the branches is the STAR. The sechach
(covering) is of palms marking the star, and eucalyptus.
The WALLS are in the image of branches, supporting canvas,
making a tentlike translucent enclosure. (More canvas may be
added.) Fruit will be hung in bunches from the 'branches.' The images
at the top of the drawing are indicative: alternating eggplant and red
onions, a floret of grapes, topped with radishes. Decoration would be
a collective celebration.
The CONSTRUCTION will be 8" peeler core columns, bound with
metal straps at the corners to the existing poles, standing on 8" con
crete blocks. Timbers are 2x8's. All connections are with joist
hangers and sheet metal brackets, screwed. Canvas walls are tied to
columns. The sechach is supported by a rope mesh attached to the
roof star.
50d
MODEL BY STANLEY SAITOWITZ®, 11 *, x 18</2 14 % ,n. (excluding
base)
-
51
Fromm: Now, we've had ether events since. We asked Jewish artists to
submit their works and we exhibited them and they were for sale.
We sold about thirty- thousand dollars worth of art works and
returned over twenty-five thousand dollars to the artists. So. it
was not only that we gave them a chance to show their works to
many people, but it was a great financial success to the artists
because, you know, artists have not an easy life. [chuckle]
Dorfman: Tell me, was that an unusual if not unique program?
Fromm: I don't know if other people have done that. But it showed
tremendous interest and we will do it again this year for Pesach.
Dorfman: Was there any theme given to the artists?
Fromm: Well, we had a seder table that was made by some artists and was
beautifully set. Many people had never seen that, particularly
non-Jews. Many Jewish people never had any idea what it was all
about. So, in some way, it is a teaching situation, you know.
It's to pass on information to those Jewish people who were not
very much involved with Jewish life.
Dorfman: As an educational tool as well as a cultural one, then.
Fromm: Yes, and I include myself in that.
Dorfman: What particularly do you remember about a sukkah from your past in
Germany?
Fromm: I don't come from an Orthodox family. But we grew up in an
Orthodox community and, of course, there were in Germany, where we
lived, many people who had a sukkah. It was always a very festive
celebration.
Dorfman: Were those sukkah symbolic as many are today, or were they more
traditional?
Fromm: They were more traditional, but it was a family affair. In the
small town where we lived almost everybody had a garden. So, the
sukkah was in a garden, and the meals were held there. It was a
very nice festival.
Dorfman: Your family did not have one.
Fromm: No.
Dorfman: So that the special meaning of sukkah to you — ?
Fromm: Well, we knew, of course, about it. So, we visited the sukkah in
some of our friends homes. There was great competition to have
the best sukkah and they were beautifully decorated.
52
Dorfman: Is there anything else you would like to add about the museum?
Fromm: We will have some very interesting exhibitions. When I was in
Israel, we talked to the Hebrew Museum in Jerusalem and we will
contact the leading Jewish museums in the United States like the
Jewish museum in New York, the Skirball Museum in Los Angeles and
the Maurice Spertus Museum in Chicago and others. We'll find out
what they have so that we can put an exhibit together from art
works that are held by other Jewish museums and ultimately, of
course, we would be very happy to loan out whatever we have.
Dorfman: Do you plan traveling exhibits, then?
Fromm: Ultimately, yes. For the time being, we don't have enough
material yet.
Personal Interest In Art
Dorfman: This seems a good point to ask about your personal interest in
art and how that developed.
Fromm: The arts were always a subject of great interest when we grew up.
Later on, of course, we visited museums and art exhibits, and, in
fact, collected a lot of art books. My wife and I, we must have
at least a hundred and fifty outstanding art books from all over
the world.
Dorfman: Is there a particular artist to whom you are especially drawn?
Fromm: There are some artists which I personally like very much and we
acquired for our home some very good pictures of French
impressionists and of German impressionists which we bought many
years ago, or had inherited from my wife's parents. We didn't buy
art as an investment. We bought it because we loved it and
enjoyed it. Of course, today those art works are worth many, many
times more than what we paid.
Dorfman: Whose work in particular do you favor?
Fromm: My wife's parents were art collectors and we have some of their
pictures, like a beautiful Heckel. We bought a very good Nolde, a
German impressionist, Liebermanns, and Floch. And we have some
that we acquired from Hanna's parents, as well as a Schmidt
Rotluff. Moll is not as well known in America. We also acquired
quite a few French impressionists, like Vlaminck, Utrillo, Bonnard,
Chagall, Dufy, Vuillard, and a beautiful Aubusson hanging from
Lurcat.
53
Fromm: As I have collected wine antiques for many years that were shown
in the Wine Museum of San Francisco, we have quite a number of
interesting and valuable wine antiques in our home.
Dorfman: What do you look for when you look at a painting?
Fromm: My wife and I look at how it impresses us. I have, however, no
understanding of real modern art. If you look at a painting or an
artwork it has to give you something. For instance, if you go up
to the Legion of Honor here and you look at the Rodins, they are
absolutely beautiful. They tell you something and so do some of
the pictures. I get a great sense of enjoyment out of looking at
things. And as they say, I have some very decided opinions based
on ignorance. [laughter]
Dorfman: Do you have anything else that you'd like to add to your feelings
about your interest in art and collection?
Fromm: I look sometimes at art books when I'm very tired or when I have
some problems. It gives me a lift. Our house only has so many
walls and many art works are not affordable for us, and in recent
years we have not added much to our collection.
Dorfman: So, your home then would contain, for the most part it seems,
impressionists?
Fromm: Yes, French and German impressionists. We also have some very
good clay, wood and bronze statues of Chinese and Japanese art.
When we were in Japan many years ago we bought quite a few art
works there that today are rare. At that time, one could still
buy them. So, we have quite an assortment, but it is all
distributed in our house wherever it fits best.
54
VI RELATIONSHIP TO ISRAEL
Reorganizing Israeli Wine Exports
Dorfman: Can we talk now about your relationship to Israel?
Fromm: I went to Israel in, the first time, in 1953. I was asked to
reorganize the export of Israeli wines to the United States which
was in very bad shape. They hardly did any business. Their wines
were cloudy and bad. Well, they just didn't know how at that
time.
So, I went over and was offered a substantial fee and my
expenses. I said, "No, I will do it at my own expense. But I
want to put in a fair report of what I find, and I don't want any
politics involved in this." I called then on the Israeli Minister
of Agriculture and told him that. I spent about four weeks there.
At that time there was no air-conditioning, and it was miserably
hot. It was in July, but this was the time when the grapes started
to come in.
I went every day at six o'clock in the morning to the Richon
le Zion winery. It was in a very run down shape and very much
neglected. The first thing we had to do was to clean it up. I
insisted on that.
It was started originally by Baron de Rothschild of Paris.
The equipment was in horrible shape. Quite a few wines were not
suitable to be sold at all. I tasted every barrel of wine and
there were hundreds of them, it was a tremendous job. Then we
made the blends and came out with Carmel wine, which was then
introduced in the United States.
After I came back from Israel, I went to my friend Samuel
Bronfman, the founder of Seagrams, and I said, "Sam, what do I do
new? How do we get the orders?" So, he said to me, — it was on a
Monday — "Come to my office on Thursday at four o'clock, I will
55
Fromm: have all the distributers in New York at my office." Of course.
i.~ Samuel Bronfman asked the distributers, they came. [laughter]
We got tremendous orders and that's the way it started.
Later on, in the last one and a half years, I have been a
consultant to some kibbutzim on the Golan Heights. They put out a
good wine, Yarden. made from grapes grown on the Golan Heights,
not in that hot climate you have in the valley. It's a quality
wine that, however, is produced so far in very small quantities.
It's only sold in the United States, except for one place. That's
the King David Hotel in Jerusalem because so many Americans go
there. The wine can compete with fine California wines.
Dorfman: Is it a white wine?
Fromm: A white wine, yes.
Dorfman: What kind of grape is it?
Fromm: It's sauvignon blanc. It's made from selected grapes and from
grapes that are grown high up. So it's not so hot. You know, if
you grow grapes in a very hot climate, they get very high in
sugar, that means ultimately very high in alcohol. And you don't
have the flavor any more. It's the same as if you take an apple
that is grown in Fresno in the hot climate. It might be
beautiful, big, and nice looking, but it tastes like a potato.
Dorfman: Ernest Nathan, who in 1954 was the Executive Director, Palestine
Economic Corporation, credited you at that time with the rebirth
of Israel's wine industry. In a letter dated 1956 from the then
Israeli Consul to the United States, a Mr. Siven writes of the
advice on wine that you gave to Israel.
Fromm: When I left Israel at that time, they gave me a beautiful Bible in
a silver cover with some semi-precious stones, and they said this
in the dedication, "To Alfred Fromm, a souvenir of his most
valuable visit to Israel which may mark the beginning of a new era
in the life and future of our wine cellars." But I don't take any
particular credit for that, it was just honest work.
Dorfman: In 1970, Golda Meir invited you to a meeting with her minister of
defense, foreign affairs and finances, and the chairman of the
Jewish agency. What happened at that meeting?
Fromm: I couldn't go to that meeting.
My relationship with Israel is maybe on a somewhat different
basis. I have a very simplistic attitude towards this. The first
one is: if you don't help your fellow Jew, nobody else will.
Secondly: by the grace of God, I am here and am able to help.
Those are the two basic thoughts that I have. Then, of course, I
THE NOTED American wine taster
poured from the unmarked bottle,
inhaled the aroma, took a sip and let
the wine roll around his tongue.
Then he savoured the delicate after
taste.
"This is a fine California wine of
the first quality," he told the Israeli
winegrower. Then he went through
the same procedure with the second
unmarked bottle.
"Your wine is very good," jie told
the visitor, ''but it just can't stand up
again*! this premium vintage."
He was in for a surprise. When the
wrappings were taken off the bot
tles, lo and behold, the taster found
that it was the Israeli wine which he
had found superior. It is a testimonial
to his integrity and professional
standing that he reported his find
ings in a respected American wine
journal.
Israeli wines are not generally
known for their excellence. When
the average American wine-lover
hears the words kosher wine, he
thinks of something sweet and
syrupy that sells well in poor black
neighbourhoods. A premium wine
from Israel not only has to prove its
worth; it also has to overcome all the
built-in prejudice in the wine indus
try-
Taking on this monumental task is
Shimshon Welner, a dynamic kib-
butznik from the Golan Heights,
who admits that until a few years ago
he had not the .vaguest idea of how a
fine wine tasted. Now he displays all
the symptoms of a wine fanatic.
WELNER MIGHT have remained
an average kibbutznik, happy to
take a sip of sweet wine on a Friday
night, had it not been for Dr. Corne
lius Ough, who visited Israel in 1972
;o advise local wineries on behalf of
the UN Food and Agriculture Orga
nization (FAO). A professor at the
University of California at Davis and_
isn miernaiioiiaiiy renowned wine
expert, Ough found that the best
area for white wine was in the Golan .
One of the factors which led him
to this conclusion is a rather compli
cated system by which the mean
monthly temperature above 50"1
Fahrenheit between April 1 and
October 31 is added up. The lower
the resulting figure, the better the
area is for white wine grapes. The
Moselle area in Germany and Santa
Barbara, California, both fall into
the first regional classification with
2,500 degrees or less. . .
Among the areas in the second
regional classification are the Napa
Valley, also in California, while the
Golan, with between 3,000° and
3,500*' is in the third regional divi.
sion. In Italy, Florence lies in the
heart of a fourth division, while the
Tel Aviv area belongs to the fifth
group of regions.
According to the experts, the best
white wines come from the first three
groups of regions. But the Golan is
even better than its third-grade clas
sification indicates, largely because
its daytime temperature:;, even in
midsummer, are not v ;ry high. Thus
the mean is not the re:.:.- It of intense
heat during the day and ;1cep chills at
night, but overall cool weather.
Following the visit, {KeGolan set
tlements convinced the World Zion
ist Organization to back them in
setting up a few experimental
vineyards. But the grapes were sold
in bulk to local wineries, and the
settlers had no indication of what
kind of wine they wer<; making. In
1982, they asked one of the smaller
wineries to produce siven tons of
sauvignon grapes separately.
"I KNOW NOW that they made the
wine under terrible -renditions,"
Welner says, but it w:is still the best
white sauvignoc in :he country.
Then I went to the U.S. wilh some
wine to try tc sell it. When ! realized
what I was up against, i threw it out."
But he did make . oatact with
Alfred Fromm, scion cf a family of
vinters from the Franc-cmia wine dis
trict of Germany. Fron::n, who came
to the U.S. in the 1930s, was for
many years the exclusive representa
tive of The Christian Bro!hers._win-'
ery in" thc'Napa Valley. He" ic-id
Welner that if he wanted to sell wine
in the U.S., he would have to acquire
American know-how.
This was not as easy as it might
sound. The local rabbis insisted that
everyone working a! the winery must
be Jewish and there are not tha:
many U.S. Jewish oenologists an
xious to LO off to the Golan Heights.'
Finally they found Philip Stein-
schreiber, a good-natured -Califor-
nian who freely admits that before
coming to the Golan he wouldn't
have thought of drinking kosher
wine. And they kept sending sample
bottles to Fromm, whose comments
progressed from "good" to "very
good" to "excellent."
AT LAST they were ready to bottle.
They sent Fromm a list of almost 300
possible names, from which he chose
"Yardcn." He also approved the
classically simp!-: label, designed by
Yaacov Shilo. Instead of the. large
kosher markings one usually sees on
wine, Y.' .den has only a tiny symbol
in the corner, indicating that it is
cerfifie'. as koshe'i 5y~the Union of
Orthodox Hebrew Congregations,
the largest U.S. kashrut supervision
body.
Then Welner returned to the U.S.
with his wine. Before going out with
him, Fromm insisted that Welner
dress the part. "They made me
spend $350 on a suit and tie, shirt -
even shoes and socks,' he says with a
look of injured innocence. But wine
sellers were still wary of any wine
from Israel or any kosher wine.
Now, with ever-increasing clamps
on government spending, it seems
highly unlikely that the S35m. re
quested will be allocated, even if the
expected annual turnover is $30m. If
he can't get help from the govern
ment, Welner says, he will not hesi
tate to,turn to private investors.
. Meanwhile, the site stands on a
hilltop with a magnificent view. Wel
ner is already visualizing the bus
loads of tourists who will drive
through the vineyard to taste the
wine and eat lunch in the adjacent
restaurant.
One prominent Jewish wine se'.'.e.
refuiwci point-blank to taste Wel-
ncr's product and had to be tricked
by his' sen into tasting a glass, which
he then pronounced worthy. Now,
with a pilot production of only
250,000 bottles, the winery is hard
pressed to fill its orders.
With an estimated retail price
approaching $10 in the U.S. , Welner
sees little market for his product in
Israel. The winery is, however, con
sidering granting exclusive selling
riahts to Je/usalem's Kina David
Hotel. Here Welner feels it will get
the kind of exposure it needs with
wealthy and sophisticated foreign
tourists, who will, he hopes, look for
the wine when they return home.
(continued next page)
HAIM SHAPIRO visits a new winery
on the Golan Heights ?
IT WAS THUS that, on a crisp
1 autumn morning, I found myself in
the yard of a Golan packing house,
lasting wine with Welner, Stein-
schreiber and Yosef Kruvi, assistant
genera! manager of the King David.
Since neither Welner r.>r Stein-
schreiber is observant, the wi;:e was
poure'd for us by a mmber of a
religion Golan settlemenr.
In addition to the natural charac
teristics of the grapes, the white
wines in particular benefit from a
long, slow fermentation process that
can last for up to 28 days. This is
accomplished by keeping i!ie wine at
a low temperature through refrigera
tion while it is fermenting, and it
results in a ric'n, full b.-uquet. A
special lightness, which makes the
wine seem almost to dance on one's
tongue, evidently comes from the
volcanic soil in which the grapes ;>re
grown.
Stressing that the wines were not
yet ready, Stcinschreiber led us
through a tasting session '.hat was a
real pleasure, with the aroma almost
seeming to jump out at us. An i mer;
aid rcisling from Yonatan had, he
told us, the aroma of peaches, while
a Semillon from the same kibbur/
was "very gra.ssy." A French Col-
ombard from Geshcr wa-. reminis
cent of "tropical fruit," while a
Cabernet Sauvignon from lh.\t kib
butz had a hint of spinach with
berries.
NOR COULD WE miss a visit 10 the
vineyards, even though the vines
have all but settled dowr, for the
winter. At El Rom, 1,100 metres
above sea level, we coulo sec Mt.
Hermon in one direction and the
rebuiii Syrian town \>! Y.uiiciira i:i
the other.
Not too far away is one of the
possible sites of what could bj the
new Golan winery - if the settle
ments get the hacking they want
from the government. Their lest
tor government help has not been
easy. During his tenure, former agri
culture minister Pessah Grunper,
himself u winegrower, did ui! he
could to squelch the project.
55h
The Jerusalem Post Magazine
December 7, 1984
TRIBUTE TO" EXPERTS
Two great authorities who have
pratuitously contributed th.e_benefit of
their invaluable advice to the local
wine industry .are .Professor HaroH
Berg and Mr. Alfred Fromm. Profes
sor Berg, of the University of Cali
fornia, spent some we«s in this coun
try at the end of 1955 at t£e invitation
of Carmel Oriental, studying the problem of-
the local industry. According to his report he
was favourably impressed with the high stan
dard of Israel wines, anc* irtdeed surprised to
find them to be at least as good as the better
California or French wines. Professor",Berg
advised the enterprise on how to overcome
one of the great obstacles in the way ftf ex
panding its exports in the past, which was the
fact that Israel wines were not sufficienlty
stabilized and in some cases produced a sedi
ment. Since then special equipment has been
installed which is sen-ing the purpose of in
creased stabilization. Professor Berg has left
a number of recommendations, all of which
have been followed up with a view to raising
still further the standard of local products.
Mr. Alfred Fromm, who is a world renowned
expert in wines, and who heads one of the
largest wine concerns in the United States, is
advising the Carmel Wine Company in New
York on ways and means of increasing dis
tribution.
It is felt that if a better rate of exchange could
be obtained, the export of wine would expand
rapidly, because this would enable the pro
ducers to offer local wines at competitive
prices.
The Israel Export Journal
March, 1956
56
Fromm: have been in Israel at various times, and when you see what has
been done there — I must say, when I came back from Israel, I
became a proud Jew, much more than I was before. Nothing, I
think, will further the cause of Israel more than to have people
go over there and visit.
Dorfman: Why is that?
Fromm: Well, when they see what has been accomplished there when you
compare it with the Arab countries, there is just a world of
difference. The Israelis have made the desert bloom and had great
success in the use of water which is very scarce over there. They
invented a sprinkling system for vineyards and for other crops
which is today used almost all over the world.
Israel can make a great contribution to arid African countries
if they are ever asked.
We send money or a lot of food to the underdeveloped African
countries. A lot of it is being misused. Corruption is prevalent
and transportation is very difficult. But so many other
problems — overpopulation — have to be attacked. The important
thing is to create a set-up where people can feed themselves. And
that the Israelis certainly have shown to the world.
57
VII ORGANIZATIONS, ACTIVITIES. AND RELATIONSHIPS
[Interview A: July 31. 1985] ##
National United Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society Council
Dorfman: On the 18th of April you received a letter from President Bob
Israelof f of United HIAS, advising you of your membership in the
National United HIAS Council. Please, tell me how you became
involved in HIAS.
Fromm: Well, I became involved with HIAS many years ago because I could
see the necessity. In those days there were not too many
organizations that were ready to do something for refugees and
immigrants. I have represented HIAS with the Jewish Welfare
Federation for a number of years because I feel the work is very
important. It goes back for at least twenty years.
Dorfman: And who drew you to HIAS?
Fromm: I don't remember, but, of course, I knew about HIAS and I thought
it was something that one should give as much help as one could.
Dorfman: Why was that?
Fromm: Those uprooted people come to the United States and other
countries, and there is nothing for them. They need jobs. They
need sustenance. Generally, the people who are cared for by HIAS
come without any means. So, I felt it was important that there be
an organization that would extend some help.
Dorfman: How has your particular expertise been used by HIAS?
Fromm: I have no particular expertise in those things except that I am a
refugee myself and I know how it is, although I came under
different circumstance and a different background. But I was very
anxious to talk to the committee of the San Francisco Jewish
Welfare Federation who decides on contributions and explains what
is sorely needed.
58
Dorfman: With whom did you relate in these matters at the Jewish Welfare
Federation?
Fromm: Well, there was the Joint Distribution Committee. There were
quite a number of people en it and they change every year.
Dorfman: How has the organization changed in the twenty years you've been
involved?
Fromm: It has been very active in bringing in Jewish people from Soviet
Russia. But this has trickled down tremendously and hopefully
this will open up again. We had rather complete information of
what has been done for refugees from all over the world. I
studied the materials that they send us, and according to that we
made our presentation to the Distribution Committee.
Dorfman: What is the relationship between United HIAS and the Council of
Jewish Federations?
Fromm: I know that HIAS received substantial amounts from Jewish welfare
federations, particularly in New York. They underwrite a good
part of their budget. But then, of course, other Jewish
federations in the United States are being asked to help too
because that money was very badly needed. So, the Jewish Welfare
Federation in San Francisco always has been very open handed with
HIAS and has every year given them, very often not what they asked
for, but they tried to come as close as they could. This was the
main job of those of us who were on that committee. Ron Kaufman
was on that and Annette Dobbs. We try to get the federation to be
as generous as possible.
Dorfman: And where are the efforts being placed now that the flow of
Russian immigrant Jews has diminished?
Fromm: Well, they are coming from all over the world. Now, of course,
the Ethiopian Jews have come in and there is a yearly request from
HIAS, New York, to the Welfare Federation that we represent here.
We receive from New York substantial material that we use in our
presentation.
Dorfman: Now as I understand, the goal of HIAS is to aid immigrant Jews who
plan to immigrate to other places than Israel. What else can you
tell me about your work with HIAS over the last twenty years?
Fromm: It's very little, except that I represented them together with
some other people or sometimes alone, with the Jewish Welfare
Federation here to see that they would get the help they needed.
This was really my main activity.
Dorfman: As liaison?
-
59
Fronm: As liaison. Since I knew quite a few people on the Distribution
Committee cf the Jewish Welfare Federation and many knew me too.
it was felt that I could be of help and I think I have been. But
this is really all I did.
Jewish National Fund
Dorfman: Let's move on to your work with the Jewish National Fund.
Fromm: In the Jewish National Fund, I have been for many years a
director, and for a few years a governor ef the Northern
California Jewish National Fund. I have been active particularly
in their annual dinners, and quite a few times have been either
the chairman of the dinner, or introduced the guest speakers, who
were always outstanding people of national reknown. Of course, I
financially helped as much as I possibly could.
Notable Speakers: Chief Justice Earl Warren, Senator Daniel
Inouye, Senator Hubert Humphrey, Danny Kaye, Senator Frank Church
Dorfman: You gave the introduction at the 1965 Hanukkah Banquet at the
Fairmont Hotel which honored the then Chief Justice Earl Warren,
over twenty years ago. What do you remember about that dinner and
Chief Justice Earl Warren?
Fromm: I was very honored that I could introduce him. I had great
admiration for the man. The dinner was very well attended and
Earl Warren spoke very well. He was really a great friend of the
Jewish people and of Israel. That, of course, was the whole
purpose of the dinner, besides raising a substantial amount of
money. And I think we were successful in this.
Dorfman: And who was it initially who invited your membership to the Jewish
National Fund?
Fromm: I think it was Charles Steiner, who was the Director of the
Northwest Region of the Jewish National Fund.
Dorfman: At that time around 1965?
Fromm: Yes, and for quite some years afterwards. He always approached me
whenever he had something to be done. And I was very friendly
with Charles. He was a very good man. He's retired now.
60
Derfman: You've been an integral part of so many of the Hanukkah banquets
over the years. Can you tell me how you related with the very
honored guests? For example, did you have an opportunity to
meet with Chief Justice Earl Warren?
Fromm: Really not because there were so many people who knew him. I'm
not an important member of the Jewish society here. The one
person we became quite friendly with, my wife and I, was Senator
Daniel Inouye from Hawaii, and also Tom McCall, governor of
Oregon, for whom we gave a reception at the wine museum.
Dorfman: How did you relate with him?
Fromm: He was very outspoken and I thought, a very fair man. A good
administrator. We discussed things that were of mutual interest.
He was interested, too, in what I was doing in the wine business.
So, we talked about this too. But I had no further contact
afterwards with him. But while he was here and while he was at
the dinner and while we gave the reception at the wine museum, it
was all done on a very friendly and intimate basis.
Dorfman: That was 1974, the year he was honored by the Jewish National
Fund.
Fromm: Yes, that would have been that year, yes.
Dorfman: Well, tell me how you related with Senator Daniel Inouye from
Hawaii.
Fromm: We met him at the dinner and we talked a great deal during the
dinner. I was very much interested in his story — being Japanese.
If you were a German and became a U.S. senator, it would have been
a very unusual thing, and I think it was in this case too. He was
a very outstanding person who did a great job for Hawaii. He was,
I felt very strongly, a good American, a man who really had the
interest of the country at heart. He served in the U. S. Army and
lost an arm.
Did you continue your relationship with the senator?
Well, we wrote him from time to time, and if anything came up in
which we thought he would be particularly interested, we sent it
to him. He wrote us back but I haven't seen him for quite some
years.
Dorfman: What, in particular, might you have written him about that would
have been of interest to him?
Fromm: There was the Fromm Institute — that something had to be done for
retired people. He was interested in things of that sort that
were very important to me.
Dorfman:
Fromm:
'
61
Dorfman: I see. And Senator Hubert H. Humphrey?
Fromm: Yes, we met him a few times, and after a few years when we met him
again I was amazed that he knew me by my name, [laughter] and
asked me about the wine business. Of course, this is one of the
things that are very important for politicians, that they have a
tremendous call back on names and on faces.
Dorfman: Was Danny Kaye on the program in 1977?
Fromm: Yes, I was chairman of that dinner. Afterwards Danny Kaye visited
me a few times. We became quite friendly. He was greatly
interested in wine and came up to my office. We talked for hours.
After I had introduced him at the dinner he said, "Thank You, Mr.
Kissinger." [laughter] And the reason was that Mr. Kissinger and
I, we come almost from the same neighborhood and we both have that
real German, Bavarian accent. [laughter] So, everybody laughed.
Danny Kaye gave at that time an outstanding speech.
Dorfman: He seems to be much more than a comedian.
Fromm: Oh, yes, it was a very very serious speech.
Dorfman: What was the topic of his speech?
Fromm: Well, he talked about the many things that happen to people, bad
things. Then in the end he said, this all has happened to the
Jewish people and something has to be done about it. But he
brought it out in a beautiful way in an outstanding address.
Dorfman: You must have worked in some way with other public figures. How
about Milton Marks? He was on the program with you more than
once.
Fromm: I knew Milton for many years and have helped him financially
wherever I could when he'd run for election. He's a very nice
fellow who represented San Francisco very well. He had the
interest of the city at heart. We knew his wife too.
Dorfman: And a United States Senator, Frank Church?
Fromm: That's the one I wanted to talk about 1
Well, Frank Church and his wife and my wife and I, became
very friendly. They came to our house for dinner and we have seen
him a few times. I thought he was a very outstanding man, a very
sensible and reasonable man. When he was in San Francisco he
generally called us and we met him for lunch or in some ether way.
Dorfman: What was central to your conversations with Senator Church?
62
Frcmm: Well, we talked about the general political situation, the foreign
political situation. Of course, he was very well versed and very
influential in it. We tried to give him our ideas, and he
listened carefully, as they all do. If it ever has any value you
really don't knew, but at least you had a chance to discuss things
with him en a very friendly and open basis.
Derfman: What particular suggestions did you make to him?
Fromm: I know that we were very concerned about the development of
nuclear weapons. We hoped that some way could be found to sit
down with the Soviets, to see if one couldn't come to some
arrangement that would take away that distrust that exists on the
Soviet side against America and en the American side against the
Soviets. I think this is what's wrong with our total
relationship. If the Soviets and the Americans could sit down and
say here this is what we need and we would know that their word is
good, but nobody really is sure about it. It's a very difficult
question because our present administration feels that the Soviets
are cheating and that they want to mislead us. This could be — but
I always felt that it is better when you can talk to people. And
if you talk to people, you might find out really where the
problems are. But I always felt the basic situation was that the
Soviets did not trust us and we didn't trust them.
Dorfman: And Senator Church's attitude toward Israel and in support of
Israel?
Fromm: It was very favorable. He had been there. And he understands
very well the needs of Israel and the needs of the United States
to have reliable allies in the Middle East. Because how far one
can trust the Arabs nobody really knows.
Dorfman: Did your discussions with regard to Israel cover military aid and
economic aid in terms of industry assistance?
Fromm: No, we didn't talk about military aid. I don't talk about things
I know little about. We talked about the general situation over
there and what could be done. I told him that in my own small
way, I had tried to1 help by organizing their wine export. As I
have often said, it's very easy to give money when you have it.
But it's just as important and sometimes more important that you
give something of your self, of your time and experience and
create something that will go on. So, that was what I had
particularly in mind as far as the wine export of Israeli wines
was concerned.
Dorfman: Then your function and your duties as an officer of the Jewish
National Fund?
-
63
Fromm: I had few organizing duties because I always have been very busy.
I attended as many of the meetings as I could. There Wets always
the question of raising money, which I certainly helped to do ©n
my own, and then to organize the dinners. The Hanukkah dinner is
the f undraising effort of the Jewish National Fund. I was amazed
hew many people were there that I never had met before. It's an
entirely different group than the one you meet at some of the
other Jewish organizations.
Dorfman : Why is that, do you think?
Fromm: I don't know. Well, there is something with the blue boxes, you
know, that the children are instructed to use. There were many
people whom I felt were of limited means, but they came and some
of them gave surprising amounts. Sometimes people in lesser
circumstances, if they give you two hundred or five hundred
dollars, it might be more than five thousand dollars or ten
thousand dollars from someone else. So, I was always very much
impressed by the wide following they had throughout all parts of
the Jewish community here and in the East Bay.
Dorfman: The major goal of the Jewish National Fund?
Fromm: Their major goal is to reclaim land in Israel so that the people
who come over there can work on the land.
Dorfman: Do you have anything else that you want to add to your years with
the Fund?
Fromm: I never have played an important role except that I have assisted
where I could. Also, where they sometimes needed someone who was
fairly well-known in the Jewish community, and had a good name.
That's about all I could contribute, that and some financial help
which I have religiously given every year.
Dorfman: There is a photo of you with Baron Evelyne de Rothschild, in your
home in 1973.
Fromm: Yes, he came to our house for dinner and we tried to be as
hospitable to those people as we can, if they take the time and
are glad to come.
Dorfman: Was that in conjunction with a meeting?
Fromm: It was in conj unction with an Israel Bond affair.
Dorfman: There is a photo of you with Baron de Rothschild at Madeleine
Russell's home. The date was 1975.
64
Fromm: We met Baron de Rothschild. I introduced him at the Israel Bond
Dinner. It was a fundraising dinner and he was the speaker. He's
a very personable man.
Derfman: What do you remember about him?
Fromm: He's a tall, good-looking man and very polished, like all the old
aristocratic Jews. They know how to deal with people and people
came and wanted to be introduced to him, particularly some old
ladies. He had a very nice word for them and they were absolutely
delighted.
Dorfman: Did he speak at the dinner?
Fromm: Yes, he was the main speaker.
Dorfman: Had you related previously with him?
Fromm: No, I hadn't and I had no contact with him afterwards.
American Technion Society
Dorfman: Let us go on to your work on the National Board of Directors for
the American Technion Society. You've been with that organization
at least since 1973, possibly before.
Fromm: Oh, yes, probably before. When we were in Israel a few years ago,
we visited the campus. I was highly impressed with it, so was my
wife. We saw the great need there is for educating technical
people not only on account of the war situation in Israel, but in
order to provide the manpower for the high-tech industries which
Israel needs very badly and which is a great article of export for
them. Hopefully, we'll develop it much further because that can
solve some of their problems, which are very great.
That was really my involvement in this. Then over the years
and after we came back from Israel, we have substantially increased
our contributions because we could see the need of what had to be
done.
Dorfman: Did you chair a committee for that?
Fromm: No, I don't think so. I have generally refrained from getting
involved in those things because I just don't have the time. I
help where I can and in matters where I can and where I have some
contacts or connections and, of course, with sometimes substantial
money donations. But in the daily operations of these
organizations I had very little hand in it.
v
65
Dorfman: In 1979, you attended the installation of Bill Shapiro.
Fromm: Yes, I introduced him. He is the son-in-law of Madeleine Russell.
We knew Madeleine Russell for many years and we have known Alice.
Bill's wife and the children for many years too. So, I was very
pleased to do that. When Bill was installed as president of the
San Francisco chapter, we started to take a larger financial
interest in Technion than we had before.
Dorfman: While your involvement has been on the national board?
Fromm: Yes.
The Alfred and Hanna Fromm Scholarship Fund; Brandeis University.
1975
Dorfman: And then in 1975, the Alfred and Hanna Fromm Scholarship Fund at
Brandeis University was started. Tell me about that.
Fromm: Well, we were asked to be the honorees, which we at first refused,
But then Madeleine Russell and Ben Swig talked to us at various
times and we couldn't refuse anymore because we had known both of
them very well for many years. There was a dinner, a fund was
established to which we contributed each year.
But all these activities, Mrs. Dorfman, really were of very
little importance and of very little interest, I think, to anyone
but us. I have done what I can, in the way I could do it. But I
haven't given it more time because I always have been a busy
person running our busines, and quite a few other things in which
I'm directly involved. So, I wasn't able to do a let. I tell
you these things because you ask, but to me they are of no
particular significance. It's something I do because it's the
right thing to do.
Dorfman: Historians are interested in what, how, and why busy people
volunteer and donate.
Alfred and Hanna Fromm Professorship. Hastings College of Law.
University of California. San Francisco
Dorfman: How did the Alfred and Hanna Fromm Professorship at Hastings
College of Law come about?
66
Fromm :
Dorfman ;
Fromm:
Dorfman;
Fromm:
Dorfman;
Fromm:
Dorfman:
Fromm:
Dorfman ;
Fromm:
Dorfman:
Fromm:
It was established by my nephew, Peter Maier, who is a professor
of tax law at Hastings. He is a tax attorney and is also a
professor at Boalt Hall in Berkeley. My wife and I have also made
contributions. This professorship was established about 1978.
Earlier, you mentioned your relationship with Ben Swig,
have known him for seme years.
You must
Yes, I knew him for many years. I had the highest regard for him.
Ben was a marvelous money raiser. Whenever he asked me, I
complied with whatever I could because I had such respect for him.
He was himself a very great giver and I always felt that if a man
like that does something, then I who was not in the same financial
position — that I should do my share. So, we were very friendly
and he called on me very often. I was always glad to help.
Fundraising, of course, is a very special skill.
Yes, well, Ben certainly had it.
What was it about him that permitted him to raise funds with such
success?
It was the way he explained things and the example that he set
himself. It wasn't just someone who asked you to do something,
but he did it himself and did it in a very big way. I had great
admiration for that.
You also worked for a number of years with Cyril Magnin.
kind of a man would you say he is?
What
Well, he is a very capable man. I think he has a great ego and
this is what makes him so effective in many ways. We knew his
daughter, Ellen, and his son-in-law, Walter Newman, quite well for
many years. We've had social contact with the Magnin family for a
long time.
You worked for the National Jewish Hospital and Research Center in
Denver as the greetings book chairman in 1981.
I have known the people from this Denver hospital for many years.
It is an ecumenical interfaith institution. I always have helped
them and we have given them rather substantial amounts every year
because I think they are doing a very outstanding and needed job.
You've had contact with the present mayor of San Francisco, Dianne
Feinstein, over the years. What impact have those contacts had?
We have known Dianne Feinstein since she was a little girl. We
k"ew her father quite well. In fact, he was Professor Goldman,
chief of surgery at the University of California Medical School.
67
Fromm: He was a teacher of our son who is now professor and chief of
surgery at the medical campus of New York State University in
Syracuse, New York. We've known the Goldman-Feinstein family for
many years. We are on a personal and very friendly basis.
Dorfman: What can you tell me about her?
Fromm: I believe she's an immensely capable and ambitious person — a
tremendous workhorse, which in this job is necessary. She has a
very good political instinct. I was very happy that she recently
didn't run on the Democratic ticket for vice-president because I
felt that the Democrats had really no chance.
And what she will do after her second term as mayor. I don't
know. We know each other very well socially, but politically we
have very little contact. Although, I have helped Dianne when
there was a need to do some financing or put up some money for her
campaign. But it's really more a personal friendship.
Dorfman: How effective a mayor do you feel she has been?
Fromm: I think she has been quite effective, has done a lot for the city.
You know, it's very easy to criticize, but with our whole system
of supervisors and commissions, it's not very easy to do it. I
think she has done, under the circumstances, a very credible job.
68
VIII THE BANK OF AMERICA; AN EARLY AND CONTINUING RELATIONSHIP
Dorfman: What is your relationship with Walter Hoadley of Bank of America?
Fromm: Walter Hoadley is a great personal friend of mine.
Dorfman: In what way did you relate with Mr. Hoadley?
Fromm: Socially, and I have done business with the Bank of America since
I've been in this country. They were the only ones who helped us
when we started our business! We had nothing but a good name and
a knowledge of the business. But very little money. The Bank of
America at that time came forward and made it possible for us to
expand our business. So, over the years I have known almost every
one of the top people in the Bank of America. I have personal
friendships with most of the presidents of the Bank, the latest was
W. [Tom] Clausen, and Sam [Samuel] Armacost and the top people
before them.
I have done all of my personal business with the Bank of
America and our firm has also done a lot of business with the
Bank. We are for them a good and a very safe account. And they
like to talk to me sometimes to get the feelings and opinions of
someone who is not in the billion dollar class, but with a good
medium sized business. Particularly they want our opinion about
the wine industry, about grape growing, because I could give them
some firsthand information.
Dorfman: Based on some solid experience.
Fromm: Yes, because this is the business I know something about. I met
Walter Hoadley there, too. He was the chief economist of the
bank. He's a good personal friend of mine, he has been at our
home quite often. We have been at his home or at parties with
him. He's a particularly open-minded, nice man, and I think, a
great friend of the Jews too.
Dorfman: And you met him at the bank?
69
Fromm: Yes.
Dorfman: With whom did you relate at the Bank of America when they were so
responsive to your expansion?
Fromm: Originally, it was Fred Ferroggiaro. He was chairman of the
finance committee and was the executive vice president. He was an
old style banker who was not a "collateral only" man when
considering a loan. This is different today because those days.
I'm talking about 1936. 1937. the bank was by far not as big as it
is today.
We became very friendly and I met Fred Ferroggiaro many times
over at St. Mary's College. He was a regent of St. Mary's College
and so was I. We had great mutual respect and liking for each
other and whenever I needed something, if I went to him, the bank
really cooperated with us. Of course, we paid every loan very
promptly too. [laughter]
Dorfman: Well, that goes a long way.
Fromm: Then later our firm grew substantially. We had rather substantial
credits in the bank, but they were short term credits because we
needed money in the fall when all the grapes come in at one time.
Then the federal tax on brandy had to be paid during the big
shipping season in the fall. So there were very large amounts of
money required. We borrowed this from the Bank of America, but
generally, after three or four months it was all paid off.
Dorfman: To whom was that tax paid? Which government agency?
Fromm: The Internal Revenue for liquor tax.
Dorfman: Not the State Franchise Tax Board?
Fromm: No, that was paid by the wholesaler. The federal tax had to be
paid before you could take the brandy out of bond. When I
acquired the majority of the firm of Picker-Linz Importers, Inc.,
in New York, I needed a few hundred thousand dollars in 1945, to
buy out the other partners. I went to Mr. Ferroggiaro and he
arranged a credit for three or five years at a very low rate of
interest. And I argued with him continuously about the interest
rate, and he said to me, "Well, Alfred. I will give it to you
because anyone who argues with me so much about the rate of
interest rate is going to pay." [laughter] That's good old-style
banking! People who don't pay don't care what the interest rate
is.
Dorfman: Yes. I wonder if the Bank of America could operate that way
today.
70
Fromm: No, today it's a giant bank with lots of problems. It's net the
same as it was back when I got my first credit at Bank of America.
Mr. Gianinni was still alive and I met him. He was an amazing
man. When I came to the bank to call on Mr. Ferroggiare it was
always at eight o'clock in the morning. That was a period when he
had time. And the second time I came there, it was maybe two,
three months later, I saw Mr. Gianinni. I said hello to him and
he said to me, 'Veil, Alfred, how are you and how is the wine
business?" The man had tremendous recall, too. You know those
public figures need to have this gift. Why would he know my name?
I was at that time a small businessman.
Dorfman: Apparently not to the Bank of America.
Fromm: Not at that time. We were not big customers. But we always had a
nice relationship. I think I told you that to me the most
important thing in any business relationship and in personal
relationships too, the first thing is that people respect you and
know that your word is good. If they like you that's very nice,
but if they only like you and don't respect you, you have nothing.
71
IX WINE MARKETING CENTER, UNIVERSITY OF SAN FRANCISCO
Dorfman: This leads us to the work that you did in wine marketing at the
University of San Francisco.
Fromm: Well, the really top quality wines in California are generally
produced by very small wineries which we call boutique wineries.
They produce and sell small quantities, very often just a few
thousand cases a year. And with the tremendous increase in
competition, many of these wineries are in a difficult financial
situation because they don't have the ways and means to market
their product. And regardless of how good a product is, if you
cannot sell it, it doesn't do you any good.
So, with the large firms in our industry, like Gallc. and the
spirits firms like Seagram and Heublein, National Distillers, and
Schenley, the wine business has taken an entirely different turn,
Those giant producers make a very acceptable wine, better than the
daily wines in Europe. It's absolutely a fact. But the small
wineries are gradually being pushed out of business because the
large wineries spend fifteen, twenty, twenty-five million dollars
and more a year and more on television, which, of course, a small
winery cannot afford. They have no marketing person.
A friend of mine, Dr. Su Hua Newton who, together with her
husband, owned Sterling Vineyards before it was sold, talked to
me. Now they own Newton Vineyards, a small premium winery in Napa
Valley. She came to me one day and asked, "Well, can we do
anything about this?"
Planning with Dr. Su Hua Newton
Fromm: So, we put our heads together. She's a very inventive woman, very
capable, and with a lot of good ideas, but she hardly knew anyone
in the industry. So, we devised a plan which I said was the only
way it could be done: to invite the president of the University
7 la
•>
72
Fromm: of San Francisco and the leading heads ef the premium wineries in
California to come to my office for lunch. We told them that we
want to educate young people who are at the University of San
Francisco or in other places to learn about wine marketing and
also product knowledge. They are wine makers, but if you are a
good wine maker and you don't sell your product, what good is it?
So, we got the owners of the best premium wineries and ef the
largest wineries to be our lecturers and we told them right from
the beginning that we wouldn't pay them anything. But they were
very glad to do this and this has developed into a very good
organization that is known throughout the United States in wine
circles. We have quite a few people from very prestigious
wineries that send their people to get this additional education
because it's very necessary.
When I first came to California in 1934, 1935, there were
probably twenty-five or thirty wineries here. Today you have over
six hundred. So, the competition is fierce. And I always felt
that it was very important that the small top premium wine be
maintained because this is where the reputation is being built.
The same as the French reputation came from Chateau Laf itte,
Mouton Rothschild and all the ether top first growth wines of
France. They built a reputation and then the mass wines came in.
For instance, the Italians have not been able to do that, but they
hardly have any wines of that outstanding character.
The French get enormously high prices for their top wines.
Five hundred, six hundred dollars a case and more for young wines.
When the wines are a few years old, they sometimes sell for a few
thousand dollars for a case of twelve bottles. It's overdone but
there is so little of it and it is sent all over the world. So,
they can get that price. The wine is certainly not worth that
kind of money. There is no wine that is worth that kind of money,
but it is a rarity.
The Wine Marketing Center now has an accredited course of
study at the University of San Francisco, which has cooperated
very well with us. We have personally. Dr. Newton and I, given
most of the money that it took to start this. It always is, you
know, hard to get money from other people. But we both have put
real money into this, and felt that it was an important
contribution that we could make to an industry that has been very
good to us. Now the large firms see it too, and they understand
the existence of the small boutique wineries is just as important
to them too. If everything is mass produced, then we are losing
an advantage that we have in California where we really can
produce wines of world class.
Dorfman: That began on what date?
73
Fromm: We started this about two and a half years ago, 1982. I have
given considerable time to it, and I have been very actively
involved by calling on the people whom we wanted to speak, and we
get almost everyone that we wanted. I told them, "Look, the
industry has been good to us. So, give something back." And en
that basis, I don't think I ever had a refusal.
Dorfman: It's a very tightly knit community, isn't it?
Fromm: Yes, but you have to know the people. And Dr. Newton hardly knew
anyone and most people, even if they didn't know me personally,
they knew who I was. I had been the head of Fromm and Sichel for
so many years. We were the world-wide distributors of the
Christian Brothers, a very successful firm. So, it wasn't
difficult to make these contacts.
Then, the next thing was to get the people for the wine
product knowledge classes. We have good contacts at the
University of California at Davis which is the leading
viticulture! school in the world today. We got some of their
professors to give courses on wine production. We got people from
large wineries, small wineries. Their wine makers came and gave
courses. We had a host of outstanding speakers and we didn't pay
anything for it. But we needed this help.
Our classes are completely filled. And whenever our students
graduate, many of them go back to the wineries where they worked
before. Now they have this additional knowledge: how to sell
wine. Others like Safeway, Liquor Barn, which are very large
outfits, each time take six or eight of our students that have
graduated because they want someone who knows something about
wine.
ff
Dorfman: How does the marketing of wine differ from the marketing of other
beverages and food products?
Fromm: Well, ether beverages and food products have simple marketing
goals. For example, with Coca-Cola there is not very much that
you have to know about the product. But wine has such a
diversity. There are hundreds of imported wines. And it's
important that we spread the good word of the quality of the top
California wines which are really world class. To see to it that
the retailer, who very often is not educated about wine,
particularly the smaller retailer of imported wine — it is also
important that the people who have come from our wine marketing
course can impart some knowledge to those retailers, and therefore
build a relationship of confidence with the consumer. You know,
if you just sell a retailer something and he doesn't know what to
do with it, you haven't accomplished anything.
•<
74
Frotnm: The old idea — that if you were a crack salesman you could sell an
icebox to the Eskimos — is outmoded. This is not being done this
way anymore. First, it's important to establish the human
relationship between seller and buyer.
When you have that, you get him interested and then explain
the product to him and show him that he can have a wine department
instead of wine being displayed among all the liquor and decorate
it nicely and display the wines in cases. So, we showed this to
the students. The promotion department of the large firms give us
all their knowledge, because they too have an interest in keeping
those small wineries in existence. The smaller wineries are not
taking anything away from them. The large wineries sell through
television. They are giant organizations. It's an entirely
different business.
Dorfman: What positions do the graduates of your program go on to take?
Fromm: Some in large liquor stores who want people who have knowledge and
can advise the consumer. Then there are quite a few who were in
wine production, engaged in small wineries, but had absolutely no
knowledge about marketing. And this was the most important goal
we had: to get these people to understand that wine has to be
sold. They couldn't afford to have any extra marketing person.
They were too small for that.
Dorfman: So that there is this bridge of information between production and
marketing?
Fromm: Yes. You see, many of the production people have no idea about
marketing and don't think much about it. They think if the wine
is good it will sell. Well, often it doesn't. Secondly, the
marketing people very often have no appreciation of the pitfalls
and the difficulties in producing a fine product. So, it's
important that those two sectors get together, and that's what
we're trying to do.
Dorfman: So, some of the graduates of your program, those not directly
selling to the retailer, would be involved in a peripheral way?
Fromm: Quite a number of small quality wineries have many visitors. And
they should know how to treat them without overwhelming them. How
to do it in the proper way so that the customer doesn't feel
pressured. And some of those winemakers now go out and call
together with their salesmen, when they have the time. So, they
take on that additional function of being helpful in the marketing
end of the business.
Dorfman: How many graduates of the program are selling full time to the
retailers?
75
Fromm: They are net only selling to the retailers. Some of them are now
employed by some of the large firms in their advertising
department. You know, if you want to advertise a wine you are
supposed to know something about it. It's to me an un-American
attitude to disregard product knowledge.
Program Changes
Dorfman: The program is so new — how has it changed since it began?
Fromm: Yes. We learned certain things that were more important than
others. We got additional people to give the lectures, people
from different parts of the industry, and some wine writers. But
the program has been very well accepted. If the university could
give us more classrooms, and if we had more money, we could have
five times as many students. There is such a demand for the
program from all over the country.
There are some marketing programs at the University of
California at Davis and at ether places, in Fresno State
University, for example, but they're not really thorough programs.
They are somewhat superficial, whereas we go into the details and
specifics and say, "This is the way you set up a display. This
the way where it should be seen. Let's say you have a few boxes
of wine next to a refrigerator case." They're all those things
that one has learned over many years. The people who send us
those students, they generally don't advertise. So, it has to be
sold in an entirely different way. They learn how to make up a
nice sales brochure. Most of those people don't know when they
received a gold medal, how to hang a replica on the bottle. There
are hundreds of techniques being taught by people who have had
great experience, who have been in this industry for many years,
and have found what has been successful.
Dorfman: So, the course includes theory, but certainly goes beyond — ?
Fromm: Oh, yes. Mostly the practical things because that's what the
people need. Of course, the one thing in selling which we always
tell our students is, you have to work very hard, and you have to
be willing very often to take some bad days with the good days,
and you need a certain aggressiveness — to want to succeed. Your
psychological attitude is very important in selling. It's not
only knowledge. You can have a professor with the greatest
knowledge in something, who can be the greatest dud when you talk
to him because he cannot relate.
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76
The Future
Dorfman: What are the future plans?
Fromm: Well, we want to continue this. And what I would like is for the
Wine Marketing Center to ultimately become the marketing center
for most of the agricultural products of California We have
almonds; we have all sorts of fruits; we have everything in
California. We try to show the agricultural community that they
need better educated people, that marketing is very important.
Dorfman: And how to tap into the experience of those who have been
successful?
Fromm: Yes. We are not that far yet, but that's ultimately what I would
like to see.
Dorfman: Are there plans for that in the future?
Fromm: Yes. We are talking about it, but it's a matter of money, too.
Agriculture doesn't pay much and it's very difficult to get any
money from those people. But there are large producers. When you
look at pistachio nuts, many people never have heard of them.
Well, we produce them now here in California. Look at kiwi fruit.
They are being produced now here. Many things of that sort that
are small, items, in the total picture, but very important items to
the people who produce them, and can be very profitable. They
don't have an organization. They don't have anyone. Really, they
might have an agent who sells it, or so. But the agent has fifty
other things.
Dorfman: So, a marketing program then would help to make a more cohesive
community among them as well.
Fromm: Yes, that's what we would ultimately like to see. I hope I would
be around long enough to see it.
Dorfman: Do you have a projected date?
Fromm: No, this has to develop. You knew, in my long business life, I
often have seen that if you make definite plans that something has
to be done by a certain date, very often, it doesn't work. It has
to develop in a natural way.
Dorfman: Are there other parallel programs?
Fromm: Not in the same way, no. Ours is the most complete program of
wine marketing and to my knowledge, product knowledge.
Dorfman: Did you and Dr. Newton pattern the program after another program?
77
Fremm: No, we worked it out ourselves.
Dorfman: What else would you like to add?
Fromm: Well, there's not much else. I gave it considerable time and
still do. and have a real involvement. But I hope this will
develop the way we want. I always felt the industry was very good
to me. I worked hard for it, naturally, but we were fortunate.
So, I would like to give something back, and see that the industry
develops in a normal and proper way, instead of just ending up as
a few giant firms who will produce millions and millions of cases
of an average, good drinkable wine, but not of real qualilty wine.
This has to be maintained and it is something that people in
America often don't understand. The wine industry, of course, is
a new business with fourteen years of prohibition. There was no
wine business when we came over. A number of us began to create
it.
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78
X MORE ABOUT ACTIVITIES AND CONTRIBUTIONS
Dorfman: I saw a photograph of you in an ad for Barren's, the publication.
It was October of 1977 in Dun's Review. Why don't you tell me
about that?
Fromm: Well, Barren's contacted me and asked me if I would be willing to
be in an ad. I said, "I will be if you feature our product. And
it will cost you a contribution of a few hundred dollars to the
Fromm Institute For Lifelong Learning. I will not personally
accept any money from you." And they did. [laughter] It was in
Barren's and in quite a few other magazines.
Dorfman: Yes, it was a very well done ad. How much time did that take to
photograph?
Fromm: It took a day or so.
Dorfman: That's very interesting.
Fromm: But those are all very little things, Mrs. Dorfman. I would never
have considered this as anything that would interest anyone.
Dorfman: You are a member of the advisory board of the California State
University at San Francisco.
Fromm: Yes, we knew the various presidents of the state university very
well. And my late brother, Norman, had particularly good
connections to the art department, music and other art forms. And
we have continued on that. The last president was Dr. Paul
Romberg. He just died a few months ago. He was a very close
personal friend of ours and he was one of the founding directors
of the Fromm Institute, too. We asked him to help us to recruit
the proper professors for us, which he did. And his predecessors,
the first two or three before him, we all knew quite well. Glenn
Dumke, who was the chancellor of the whole university system, is a
personal friend of ours.
Dorfman: And what contribution have you made in an advisory capacity?
79
Fromm: Well, there were a number of problems which came up at that
university, particularly housing, for others, money, of course.
And they are discussed at great lengths by this advisory board,
and we gave our opinions and tried to come to a solution. I
personally have recruited a few members to join. I have given
seme financial assistance. We know the new President, Dr. Chiu
Wei, a very intelligent man. In fact, he was present at the last
dinner of the Fromm Institute. We always had a very nice
relationship net only with the top people — but were involved with
a number of things that were dene there, but all of it, Mrs.
Dorfman, I don't think it's even worthwhile for anyone to know.
Dorfman: It will give researchers an idea of how things work.
Samuel Bronfman and the Seagram Company
Dorfman: I know that you admired Samuel Bronfman. Please tell me why.
Fromm: Samuel Bronfman was an outstanding business man. He had
tremendous foresight, and knew or anticipated things long before
anyone else. And my late partner, Franz Sichel, knew Samuel
Bronfman quite well. He had visited him with his wife when my
partner, at that time, lived in Berlin. When Franz Sichel came to
the United States, Samuel Bronfman gave him a job. Then later
Franz Sichel and I formed the partnership of Fromm and Sichel
Importers, Inc., and I was introduced to Sam. I had great
admiration for him because he was absolutely insistent that
everything had to be of the highest quality.
Sometimes people thought he was in the bootleg business.
Well, he really wasn't. In Canada, he sold to people who
bootlegged it later, but in Canada it was perfectly legal to sell
liquor. He was an extremely smart man and after I dealt with him
for a year or so, I felt that the man started to respect me. Then
we became very good friends. He was very helpful to me whenever
we needed something because Seagram became the largest partner in
our firm. Whatever we suggested to him, he'd say go ahead and do
it.
A Valued Business and Personal Relationship
Fromm: He helped me enormously with good advice. He always was a very
busy man, and ours was a comparatively small business. He always
had time and if he didn't have time during the day, he'd say to
me, "Alfred, come over to the St. Regis Hotel." He had a big
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80
Fromm: apartment there. "Have dinner with me and we can talk." Then
we'd talk for three, four hours which was very strenuous because
he was extremely sharp and intelligent. You had to be careful ef
what you told him because he never forgot anything.
Here is his picture. [pointing at a photograph on office
wall] In the middle, this is Samuel Bronfman. He gave this to me
with a very nice dedication and I have some other mementos from
him. I always have been on very friendly terms with the Bronfman
family and with the sons, Edgar and Charles. Edgar in New York,
and Charles in Montreal. They head the worldwide Seagram
business.
Dorfman: You say his most important traits were his intelligence and his
demand that everything be ef the highest quality?
Fromm: Yes.
Dorfman: Can you give me some examples?
Fromm: Well, when I first met him, I was very unsure of myself. I never
had talked to a man of that importance. It was many years ago and
we were still a small firm. I was prepared to tell him everything
about our firm. After we sat down — he had invited us for lunch —
he said to me, "Well, Alfred, what can I do to help you make
better wine?" That sold the man to me. He never asked me how
much money do you make, and what you think you can make in the
future. He knew that Franz Sichel and I would do the right thing.
He had a great feeling about people. You know that certain people
instinctively have the feeling that they are or are not dealing
with the right kind of persons.
So, I told him what he could do to assist us and they sent us
out some of their experts. When we went into the Christian
Brother's Brandy business we had the same old stills as everyone
else. And Sam said to us, "You need different and better stills."
I said, "There's nobody to build them. There's nobody who knows
anything about it." He said, "We have the people who build them."
And he sent his top experts out from the distilling business and
they designed a still for the Christian Brothers which is still a
unique still in California. It's probably the reason why Christian
Brother's Brandy was always a leading brandy in the country. We
made a better product.
Things of that sort which he did for us, and how to blend
brandies and other matters were of invaluable advice. I listened
very carefully to what he had to say. But there was a very close
personal relationship. Unfortunately, he died some years ago and
I was a pallbearer at his funeral.
81
Dorfman: That's too bad. When he gave you advice, were you then affiliated
in the business sense?
Fromm: Yes, before we were affiliated with him, and then after we were
affiliated with him. But, of course, he saw the balance sheets
and then we talked about it. He said, "You know, you are doing
okay. " That was all he said and that was good enough. [laughter]
Dorfman: Well, he was a man, then, who gathered his information first, and a
great visionary.
Fromm: Yes, yes, he was. I had the greatest admiration and respect for
that man.
Dorfman: What other experiences did you have with him?
Fromm: I told you, Sam asked me what he could do to help. When I made my
will, I asked him how I should do certain things. He gave me some
invaluable advice. One was that if one of the spouses is
financially not in the same class as the other, be sure in your
will that you leave a bequest to the other spouse, too. So, if
the wife is the one who has more money, and the man has much less
or visa—versa, this can lead to great complications. I have told
this to many people and they have been grateful. We have always
included this in our own wills. Money is a very good thing, but
can be a very bad thing, too.
Dorfman: So, that is a good way then to use money as an enabler.
Fromm: Yes. Sam was a very charitable person. He was the President of
the World Jewish Congress for many years. His son Edgar is now,
and Sam involved me in that. We had a few meetings on that in our
home and raised quite some money. There was a dinner given by the
World Jewish Congress in my honor. I received a beautiful silver
kiddush cup with a very nice inscription and Samuel Bronfman's
signature embossed on it. Whenever I was in New York, he always
would see me although there were sometimes many people waiting for
him.
as
Dorfman: Obviously, the relationship had a great deal of meaning to him
well.
ffl
Fromm: One thing I can say about Sam was — you know, a man who had such a
tremendous amount of money and power, can become very suspicious.
Many people have some intention of asking for something or involve
them in something — which I never did. And I knew Sam trusted me.
That took a few years to build such a relationship, naturally.
That's why whatever we wanted that was reasonable, and I didn't
ask for anything that wasn't, he would just say, go ahead and do it.
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82
Fromm: So, I ran this firm for the last twenty, thirty years. Even
though Seagram's was the majority stockholder, Fromm and Sichel
was run completely autonomously. And I think we were the only
firm in this giant Seagram's concern that had that privilege.
Dorfman: As a result of the relationship-?
Fromm: Of the relationship with Sam, and then later with his sons. It
was a relationship of complete trust and confidence. We did well
too, which didn't hurt. You know, most of the large firms, they
interfere in almost everything. Large firms are the killers of
small business very often. But Seagram's did not interfere
whatsoever, until I retired. And then the firm was sold. One of
the good reasons why the firm was sold was the fact that I was
retiring and I was 79 years old. Because I was retiring, there
was no one in the Seagram organization to deal with a religious
Catholic order like the Christian Brothers.
Dorfman: How did Mr. Bronfman's sons differ?
Fromm: Well, Edgar who is Seagram's Chairman of the Board in New York is
a very intelligent man, a good personal friend, too. His other
son, Charles, who lives in Montreal, handles the Canadian and
other business and a good personal friend of ours, too. We get
along very well. I must say in those almost forty years that we
were with Seagram's, we never had a cross word either with any one
of the Bronfman family or with any one of their top executives.
But I made it my business only to discuss things with their top
executives and not get involved en the lower level, because that's
where the trouble mostly starts. And of course, the lower level
didn't like it at all that I, who owned much less of the firm than
Seagram did, had such complete autonomy.
Dorfman: Who didn't like it?
Fromm: The lower level people: the insurance people and the financial
people. In fact, we did many things better than they did. But we
had to. [laughter]
Dorfman: And so the relationship with the sons, Edgar and Charles,
continues to this day. Do you still see them?
Fromm: Oh, yes. We maintain our contact with them. We know Sam's wife
Sadie who lives in Montreal. She has had her ninetieth birthday.
Our families know each other well.
82a
SAMUEL BRONFMAN
;*3C Fc£L STREET
MONTREAL 2. CANADA
March 12, 197L
Mr. Alfred Fromm,
Fromm & Sichel, Inc. ,
1255 Post Street,
San Francisco, California 94109.
My dear Alfred,
I am looking at your heartwarming letter
of February 25th, I have not been able to reply to it sooner
because as you know I was in New York and then have had a
string of birthday parties culminating in a large Industry Party
at Ottawa the day before yesterday so today I am back at the
office.
As I approached my 80th Birthday it gave me
a great deal of food for thought of what has happened in our
world in the past 80 years of my life and reminiscing my own
life in relationship to what has happened in the world, I have
some wonderful memories of my associations in the development
of my personal life, my family life and my business life. In all
three I have been a most fortunate man. I have enjoyed in my
business life many friendships - yea romances - and one of the
outstanding business romances in my life has been my happy
relationship with Franz and yourself. Let us pray that we con
tinue in good health and that we may enjoy our very pleasant
relationships and continue to be happy with our families and
with our good deeds.
"With my warmest regards to Hanna and yourself
and family, I am
Affectionately,
82b
SENT TO EVERY MEMBER OF THE
FROMM & SICHEL ORGANIZATION.
IN MEMORIAM - SAMUEL BRONFMAN
1891 - 1971
On July 13, 1971, Mr. Samuel Bronfman, the founder, builder and
Chairman of the Board of the Seagram empire, was laid to rest.
In his memory all the activities of our firm stopped on this day.
I attended the funeral in Montreal, and having known Mr. Sam for
over thirty years I believe that you would like to know more about
this man who, already in his lifetime, was a legendary figure in our
industry.
*
Over these many years my late partner Franz Sichel and I were indeed
fortunate to have his friendship and trust and the benefit of his
wise counsel.
It would be redundant to dwell on Mr. Bronfman's success in building
an enterprise that stretches to all corners of the globe and is the
largest in our industry throughout the world. I had the privilege
on many occasions to observe him as the big-hearted, warm and lovable
person he was, with a deep concern for others. Mr. Sam was an activist
in numerous charities, who gave fully of himself in addition to his
large financial contributions.
Almost every time I saw him, Mr. Sam stressed the dignity of business
and people and the need to earn the consumer's lasting respect. Highest
quality in product was almost an obsession with him, a point on which
I never saw him compromise. By his example he has immeasurably lifted
the status of the whole liquor industry in this country, to which he
has left a lasting legacy.
Samuel Bronfman will be remembered, not only as an empire builder, but
as a good and kind human being. I revered this man who, through his
example, had a great influence on my life. His passing is an enormous
personal loss for all those who were fortunate enough to have known
him well.
Mr. Sam, during his lifetime, has wisely provided for good and capable
successors to direct the world -wide business which he founded. In his
sons he has raised men of proven ability who will follow his example
of leadership.
ALFRED FROMM
83
The Wine Museum, San Francisco; Now the Seagram Museum. Waterloo,
Ontario. Canada
Derfman: I understand that the Wine Museim has been moved to Canada.
Fromm: Partly to Canada, and the most valuable part, the glass collection,
is now at the de Young Museum in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco.
Dorfman: The glass collection is at the de Young.
Fromm: Because this is really what the cere value of the museum antiques
was. Probably with between half a million and a million dollars,
so it's a sizable, a fabulous collection. There is a special room
at the de Young Museum for the Franz Sichel Glass Collection.
Dorfman: What about the museum itself, which was moved to Canada? We do
know that the museum was moved to Canada at the time that the
firm, Fromm and Sichel, was sold. I wonder what thoughts you've
had about the change of location.
Fromm: The Seagram Museum is located in Waterloo, Ontario, which is about
an hour away from Toronto. It's a large museum, and it has, I
think, thirty-seven thousand square feet, and a very valuable
collection that the Seagram people have assembled over some time.
There are antiques that are particularly interesting to the
production of spirits and a very sizable collection of wine
antiques, not only from the San Francisco Wine Museum, but also
antiques that they have acquired. A very valuable part of the
wine collection is my own library, which has one of the most
valuable libraries of old wine books, some of them very rare. I
contributed this to the "Friends of Samuel Bronfman Foundation,"
and they turned it over to the Seagram Museum. Mr. Sam was my
patron saint, so I thought that this would be a fitting thing to
do.
The value of those books is hard to say, but it could be 100
to 150,000 dollars. They were some very rare and valuable books
collected over fifty years.
Dorfman: What kind of books, for example?
Fromm: Strictly having to do with wine. Books that were written about
wine. I think our earliest books were from between 1500 and 1600.
They are in Latin, Italian, German — in all languages because the
wine culture in English-speaking countries came much later. So
that we had about five or six hundred books, but very carefully
selected and very rare.
Dorfman: So that the focus was on the production of wine?
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84
Fromm: The production of wine, the knowledge ef wine, and the place ef
wine — whatever was written many years ago. And then, of course,
there were quite a few volumes dealing with wine that were from
this century.
Dorfman: What has been your involvement with the museum since that time?
Fromm: Well. I was the founder of the Wine Museum in San Francisco. We
had a museum director who worked under me. but I was the guiding
spirit of the museum. I think I told you that we had about a
million and a half visitors during the museum's San Francisco
existence. It was like a little jewel-box, with selected, small
exhibits. We had a tremendous amount of publicity all over the
world.
*
Dorfman: And your involvement since its move to Ontario?
Fromm: I have no further involvement in it except always keeping in touch
with the director of the Seagram Museum, giving him some
suggestions.
Dorfman: How have they changed the museum since its move?
Fromm: They added the collections of the Wine Museum in San Francisco to
their own and it made a very beautiful presentation.
Dorfman: Do you have any feelings about any changes or publicity that the
museun might benefit by?
Fromm: Yes, the Seagram Museum received very wide publicity, and it
probably is today, or certainly will be, the leading museum in
North America dealing with spirits and wines.
More About the Wine Business
Dorfman: The plaque at the entrance to your suite of offices indicates
the Brandy Association. In what way is that related to the Brandy
Association of California and Brandy Associates?
Fromm: It's the same. But Brandy Associates is a division of the Seagram
Company in New York and this is its actual legal name, but it's
known as Brandy Association of California. I'm chairman of the
board. I was chairman of the board of Fromm and Sichel but the
firm was sold back to the Christian Brothers. They wanted to
retain the name of Fromm and Sichel because it was a very
respected name throughout the country.
85
XI ORGANIZATIONAL CONTRIBUTIONS AND AWARDS
California Medical Clinic for Psychotherapy; Vice Chairman
Derfman: You were Vice Chairman of California Medical Clinic for
Psychotherapy?
Fromm: I was for a number of years. It was an organization that rendered
psychiatric services at very low prices. There were doctors in
charge and some other personnel who were not medical doctors, but
had a license to practice in psychology. It was quite a good
organization, but they were in a terrible financial mess. They
had accounts receivable that went back for years by people that
just hadn't paid, and they always were in financial straits.
So, I contributed a good sum and with the help of some other
people, straightened out their financial situation.
Dorfman: You gave them financial and organizational advice.
Fromm: Yes. I didn't try to interfere in psychiatry because I'm not
qualified for that. I always have stuck to these things that at
least I know something about.
Dorfman: I understand that the clients of this clinic were primarily middle
class.
Fromm: Middle class and lower-middle class.
Dorfman: And they were based here in San Francisco?
Fromm: Partly in the avenues, I think they are still there.
Dorfman: What sort of contribution do you feel that the organization has
made?
Fromm: Well, it gave many people who could not afford to go to a
psychiatrist the opportunity to get counseling either in a' group
or individual when it was necessary at very low- rates.
>
86
Dorfman: I understand that your role in the group began in 1964 until 1968
er 1969?
Fromm: Yes, that's about right.
Dorfman:
Fromm:
Dorfman
Fromm:
St. Mary's College; Beard of Regents
Before we go en to your work in music, would you like te tell me
about your role as regent with St. Mary's College?
My wife and I have always been very interested in education. __ And
I knew the people in St. Mary's College very well because St.
Mary's College is owned by the Christian Brothers. Our firm was
the world-wide distributer for the Christian Brothers wines and
brandy located at Napa. I got acquainted with the people of the
college in Moraga in the East Bay. I could see that a lot could
be done. There was a new president. Brother Mel Andersen, who is
still there as president, a first class, capable man. Hie large
deficits that they had were wiped out gradually. Today, it's
really a flourishing institution.
So, I was elected te the Board of Regents of St. Mary's
College. I was there for many years, but now I'm not so active
anymore. I'm now a regent emeritus.
.
How long were you a regent?
It must have started in 1970. I was elected te the Board of
Regents of St. Mary's College in 1970, and stayed until 1984 when
I became a regent emeritus.
Now, my late partner, Franz Sichel in New York, was also very
much interested in education. And I made it possible fer St.
Mary's College to receive, after my partner's death, about five
hundred thousand dollars from the Sichel Foundation te build a
special building for biology that was very badly needed. It is
named the Franz W. Sichel Biology Building. But this was done
after I had been a regent fer quite a number of years.
I have been active on the board of regents and there were a
lot ef problems which always came up because the school was in bad
financial shape when I joined. Over the years, it really made
very wonderful progress.
Today, they turn people away if their grades are not
sufficiently good because all their facilities are fully used.
They have about twelve hundred students. They have many Christian
Brothers as professors who have studied for many years all ever
87
Fromm: the world. And then they have some outside professors and
teachers too. It's a very good school and it became co
educational. That, of course, made a big difference. But you
know, in the early years Moraga was not easily accessible. But
today, the East Bay has built up so much and is such a flourishing
part of the country. This has made a big difference because it's
easy to get to now.
Dorfman: What is the greatest personal contribution that you made as a
regent to St. Mary's?
Fromm: Well, that I was able to get the financing and the donations for
the Franz Sichel Biology Building. Brother Mel Anderson, the
president, is a good personal friend of mine, too. And I have
helped throughout the years wherever it was necessary. They've
founded a museum that was endowed by the Hearst Foundation, a very
nice little museum. And as I knew a bit about the museum
business, I was on that committee for that museum and have been
able to give some advice.
Founding Member of the President's CLub
Dorfman: You were also a founding member of the President's dub.
Fromm: Yes, I was the president of the President's Club for many years,
[chuckle] When I took this job, we had maybe thirty or forty
members. And by contacting many people personally and in writing,
they have now about three hundred and fifty members who paid, at
that time, a thousand dollars a year. Today, I think it's twelve
hundred dollars a year. I have made a much larger contribution
for many years, and still continue to do so.
Dorfman: And the President's — ?
Fromm: The President's Club raises substantial money for the college and
they can use those funds for their regular expenses. It has
become an important part of the financial arm of the college.
Dorfman: That enters the general fund for the college?
Fromm: Yes.
Dorfman: How long have you been a member of that club? ..
« 4
Fromm: It may be ten or twelve years.
88
Honorary Alumnus, 1981; Honorary Doctor of Humane Letters, May 1974
Dorfman: You were also elected an honorary alumnus in 1981.
Fromm: As you know, 1 have no college education, They elected me an
honorary alumnus. I really don't know why, [chuckle] but it was
really in some way. maybe to thank me for the many things that 1
had done for St. Mary's College. I think I told you, I have an
honorary doctor's degree from St. Mary's College.
Dorfman: Tell me about that, please.
Fromm: After a few years, the college felt very strongly that they owed
me something. Although I never asked them for anything, they
asked me if 1 would accept an honorary doctor's degree. I said I
certainly would. And they gave me a D.H.L., Doctor of Humane
Letters. I received this in 1974, and the bishop of Sacramento
was the one who gave the address and award. I think this is
pretty well what he said. [showing degree]
Dorfman: In addition, you received a degree of Doctor of Public Service,
1979 from the University of San Francisco.
Fromm: My wife got the same degree because the Fromm Institute was a
joint undertaking of my wife and me, from the University of San
Francisco, 1979.
Dorfman: Two honorary degrees.
Fromm: They're the only degrees that I have. [chuckle]
Dorfman: Those are very impressive achievements and you must be very proud
of them.
Fromm: It just happened when I got the honorary doctor's degree from St.
Mary's College that my son David visited us in California. So, he
came with me and my wife.
Dorfman: Did you have anything else that you might add about your
involvement with St. Mary's College?
Fromm: I think that covers it pretty welL I was very active there for a
number of years. And I was highly pleased with the progress made
under President Brother Mel Anderson of St. Mary's College. We
worked very closely together.
Tuition is quite high there, as in any private college — so
there's always the problem of where the funds come from. They
have a lot of minority students over in St. Mary's College and
quite a lot of scholarships.
ALFRED FEOMM - As an exponent of the best tradition of European culture and
refinement, as a respected and successful businessman and as a beloved
benefactor and Regent of Saint Mary's College, we salute you.
You brought with you the wisdom and business acumen of your ancestors'
two hundred years experience in the wine business when you emigrated to the
United States from Germany. Convinced that the future of the wine business
was in California's premium wine districts, you secured representation of
the Christian Brothers winery in Napa, California, in 1937 and have been
associated with it ever since.
Together with your late beloved partner, Franz W. Sichel, you made the
Christian Brothers name synonomous with excellence. As the wines and
brandies you distribute grow in popularity, the work of the Christian
Brothers also flourished - supported by the emoluments you made possible.
The largesse of your heart is manifested in the beautiful Wine Museum
recently opened near the waterfront in San Francisco. There, for all fro
enjoy, is a tribute to the romance and history of winemaking, as well as
the exquisite glass collection of Mr. Sichel. The museum is the realization
of a longtime dream to share your love of a noble art with the world.
Your philanthrophy toward charitable and cultural organizations is
attested to by your numerous associations: with the Jewish National Fund,
San Francisco Opera Association and San Francisco Conservatory of Music to
name a few. The Fromm legacy spreads throughout the United States, as your
brother Paul is the founder and president of the Fromm Music Foundation,
which nurtures symphonic music in the Chicago area, and your twin brother
Herbert is musical director of Temple Israel in Boston and foremost composer
of liturgical music. Your late brother Norman was the founder of the San
Francisco Chamber Music Society.
As a fitting monument to your generosity toward Saint Mary's College,
and the love of your late partner for the Christian Brothers, the Franz
W. Sichel Biology Center will soon rise on the Saint Mary's campus. It
will ever testify to the loyalty and largesse you have displayed throughout
your life, as your plea as President of the Franz W. Sichel Foundation made
a grant for its construction possible.
On the occasion of its one hundred eleventh commencement, Saint Mary's
College of California is pleased to recognize your many contributions to it
and society by conferring upon you the Degree of Doctor of Humane Letters.
Text of Alfred Fromm 's Honorary Degree conferred by Saint Mary's College
May 25 3 1974
>
Alfred Froiran receiving Honorary Degree, Doctor of Humane
Letters. St. Mary's College, May 1974.
>
89
Dorfman : So that funding is all the more a problem.
Fromm: Yes, it is.
Dorfman: Is that the major problem of a small private school such as St.
Mary's?
Fromm: No. there's funding, and then there is academic excellence of a
school. They have improved this tremendously. I know St. Mary's
College in California well because of their relationship to the
Christian Brothers. And knowing the provincial of the Christian
Brothers very well, under whose direction the college was run,
they had very hard times for a long period.
Music in the Vineyards ; Co-Founder
Dorfman: We can go on to your involvement and the contributions that you've
made to music. I'd like first to ask you about Music in the
Vineyards.
Fromm: Our oldest brother, Norman, was quite knowledgeable in music and
always very much interested. And my twin brother, Herbert, is a
professional musician. So, music played a big role in our home as
we grew up, even though I don't play an instrument, nor do I
really know very much about music except that I enjoy it.
In Paul Masson, there is a big terrace and it overlooks the
whole Santa Qara Valley. It's just beautiful. Outstanding
scenically. Then there is that old winery. The portal of the
winery is probably three or four hundred years eld. It came from
Italy. In the little chateau we had some guests up there, and my
wife talked to Kurt Herbert Adler, who was the general director of
the opera, and she said, "Wouldn't it be a marvelous place to have
a concert for the people?" We didn't know what the acoustics
would be. Then the Ford Foundation had this institution near
Saratoga where professors from all over the world came for a
sabbatical. They came up and played, and then we found that the
acoustics were excellent.
We followed up on that. My wife and my brother Norman did
all the work to make this possible. My role was a different one.
I was, at that time, the president of Paul Masson. The firm had
developed and had become much larger, and we needed a lot of
money. There was a question: could we afford to do this. But we
all thought this was such a worthwhile thing to do, and we were
the first ones who had outdoor concerts. I think we appropriated
five thousand dollars to start the whole thng. Today, it would
cost many, many times more. But except for the music, we did all
the work ourselves in order to save money.
90
Fremm: At that time, the read up was very bad. It was very curvy and
very narrow. We had some hay-wagons and took the people up there.
They loved having this beautiful view and then during the
intermissions, we served them some champagne, Paul Masson
champagne. And it became very popular. We had at first four or
five hundred people because it was all we could accommodate. Then
we created some additional parking spaces and now they have about
a thousand people. The concerts are every year and they are
always completely sold out. There are hundreds and hundreds of
people who write in for tickets and whom we cannot accommodate —
If
Dorfman: So, you wouldn't have the space for more than a thousand people?
Fromm: No, and we didn't want any more because it becomes almost
unmanageable. Many, many people came down from San Francisco and
from other areas. Then, of course, many people came up from Santa
CLara. It became a very popular thing. In the meantime it has
been expanded substantially. But all the performances are on a
very high level. We had some really outstanding musicians play
there. We gave some small operas, too. And you know when you sit
outside with this beautiful view in nice weather and have some
champagne, you get people who just loved it and still do.
Then one of the reasons, too, for doing this was that we were
newcomers in California.
Dorfman: What year did this begin?
Fromm: This is now twenty years ago. And I felt that besides the
artistic value, that it would have a very good publicity value,
too, for Paul Masson. Our competitors who sometimes didn't look so
fondly at us because we were successful in our business, we
invited them, and they came. I think it has created a very good
atmosphere for the firm and for us personally. If you are Jewish,
you know, there is always this talk that Jews take the business
away. But we created a business that didn't exist. So, we didn't
take it away from anyone and everybody had the same chance.
My brother Norman ran the concerts and spent considerable
time selecting the programs. He was really the soul of Music in
the Vineyards !
Dorfman: It has been a model?
Fromm: Yes. It's now done in Napa Valley and many other places. It's
really a very nice thing during the summer.
Dorfman: What was the most successful program over the yenrs?
"
91
Fronm: It's hard to say which one was the most successful because every
year the program was carefully accepted. We had Sander Salgo, a
Hungarian, as conductor. I think he is still there today and was a
professor of music at Stanford.
Dorfman: And what kind of a future de you see for Music in the Vineyards?
Fromm: Well. I hope this will be continued for many more years because
it's such a successful and pleasant undertaking.
Dorfman: Do you anticipate any changes?
Fromm: I don't think so. I'm not involved in this anymore. There's more
modern music today which twenty years ago was net as popular as it
is today. But we always have tried to have at least one piece of
modern music right from the beginning. We felt this was a good
way to present it and get the people acquainted with it.
Dorfman: So, the breadth of this program has broadened?
Fromm: Yes, there were generally very good critiques in the newspapers.
It really was a nice thing to do.
Norman Fromm, Founder; San Francisco Chamber Music Society
Dorfman: Your brother, Norman, who was the co-founder of Music in the
Vineyards, was also the founder of the San Francisco Chamber Music
Society, I understand.
Fromm: Yes, he was. He died about ten or twelve years ago.
Dorfman: What can you tell me about your brother's work with the San
Francisco Chamber Music Society?
Fromm: Well, my brother Norman was very knowledgeable about music and he
knew almost everybody in the music world here and in other cities,
too. He was able to get the cooperation of outstanding
performers. It was a new organization and of course, like
everything else it takes money. So, I contributed accordingly as
did quite a few of our friends. We sold tickets at a fairly low
price because, you know, the ticket prices that we have today for
good concerts was something that didn't exist in those days.
Dorfman: Yes. And then when we discussed accessibility —
Fromm: The concerts were held in various places. In the last years, I
think, it was mostly at the hall in the Fireman's Fund Building in
California Street. Then there was this stipend made for "Norman
92
Fromm :
Fromm Concerts" after he had died. And we have helped with this.
But now the San Francisco Chamber Music Society, I think, is going
to be dissolved because there are not enough people anymore who
have an interest. There are always new things coming up. And as
you know, all this is the product of a person. There was no one
there who really would spend the time and the interest as my
brother had. So, I belive it went on for something like twelve or
fifteen years. But it was definitely a contribution to the
cultural life here.
Paul Fromm, Founder; Fromm Music Foundation, Harvard University
Dorfman: Your brother Paul, it has been said, is the most famous musically.
What can you add to what you told me earlier?
Fromm: Yes. He's the youngest of us. He's about two years younger than
I am. He was in our firm in Bingen and was very active there.
But his love was always music. When he was able to come to this
country, he went to Chicago and joined a wine firm there which we
later bought. He started his own firm, Geeting and Fromm. It was
quite successful because some of the salesmen who had worked for
us in Germany, when they immigrated to the United States, wanted
to work for him. We had a lot of experience in selling to
consumers. And he built a very nice and profitable business.
As soon as he started to make some money and was financially
independent he started the Fromm Music Foundation in 1952 in
Chicago. He had a group of advisors, all outstanding musicians.
Their aim was to promote only modern music because at that time it
was almost impossible to get modern music performed in a large
city. They always perform good old pieces that everybody loves.
What my brother did was: after the board of the Fromm Music
Foundation accepted a work, they guaranteed that it would be
performed and it would be published. The composers had no chance
otherwise. They were sometimes salesmen of neckties, of shoes,
or teachers or whatever jobs they had. You certainly couldn't
make a living on modern music.
So, the new works were published and performed, which was
something those young people who wrote modern music never were
able to do for themselves. And some of them discovered by the
Fromm Music Foundation have become leading modern composers.
Derfman: Are there names that come to mind?
Fromm: I can't remember the names,
music.
I know very little about modern
•»
93
Fromm: My brother has been named one of the most valuable citizens in the
cultural life of Chicago. Later on, as he get elder, he wanted to
make sure that the Fromm Music Foundation would go on. He turned
it over to Harvard University. It's now the Fromm Music
Foundation at Harvard University. But my brother is still the
president of it. He felt that Harvard would continue this and he
has endowed it with a very substantial amount, so that the money
for it is available. Paul received two honorary doctoral degrees
and is considered the leading personality in the world of serious
modern music in the United States. He has written many articles
about modern music for the New York Times and ether leading
newspapers and magazines.
Dorfman: I understand that from 1952 until 1957. he aided fifty young
composers to write ambitious music.
Fr omm : It couldwell be.
Dorfman: Epic Lable, Twentieth Century Composer Series apparently issued
the recordings.
Fromm: He died at eighty years of age in July. 1987. His obituary
appeared in the New York Times. I always thought of my brother as
a first-rate intellectual who made the largest contribution in our
family to this country.
San Francisco Conservatory of Music; Board of Trustees
Dorfman: Another of your efforts was with the San Francisco Conservatory of
Music. How did you happen to become involved?
Fromm: Through some friends of mine who were on the board of the
conservatory. There was a lot of trouble at that time. The
director wasn't the right man and their financial situation was
very unsound. They asked me if I would join them as a trustee
which I did many years ago.
Dorfman: About what year would you say?
Fromm: It must be easily twenty-five years ago.
I have helped them financially. The director is there for
twenty years by now. Milton Salkind is also a personal friend ©f
eurs. He's doing an outstanding job. Today the conservatory is
one ©f the leading conservatories in the United States. But it
wasn't at that time. Now that we have good professional people
handling this, our job was to see that things run right.
»3a
Fromm, Krause
Rooms Dedicated
On May 4, Conservatory President .
Milton Salkind, and Board of Trustee*
Chairman . John C. Beckman. presided
at the dedication of the Hanna and
Alfred Fromm Room at the Conserva
tory. The room naming was attended
by Conservatory Board member* and
friends of the Fromm*. and included a
short concert by Conservatory students
Jeff Lee, Wende Namkung, HoUy
Houser, Elizabeth Van Loon and Steve
Kalm and remarks by Mr. Beckman.
The Board of Trustees voted to name
the room, which is one of the class
rooms in the new Conservatory build
ing, to commemorate the support the
Fromms have given the Conservatory
over the years both financially and
otherwise. Mr. Fromm has been a
member of the Board for many yean.
Together with Mrs. Fromm, he has
hern involved in and supported
numerous San Francisco community
activities and has had a long and
distinguished business career as Chair
man of Fromm and Sichel. Mr.
Beckman made special mention of the
frankness, honesty and humility of the
Fromms and their true feeling for
people and the community.
At informal ceremonies on July 9,
Milton Salkind presided at the dedica
tion of the Stella R. Krause Piano
Room at the Conservatory. Made
possible by the generous contributions
of Herman R. Krause, Madeline
Altihuler and Mr. and Mrs. Stanley
Nairin, the room is named in honor of
their mother. The dedication cere
monies included a short concert by
Conservatory student, Steve Wartycki
and a buffet lunch which was at
tended by friends and relative! of Mrs.
Krause's children and Conservatory
Board member*, Curtii M. Caton,
June Kingsley, David Hall, and Kris
Geti.
Mr. Salkind remarked upon the
< ontiiniing »ii|i|>oii <>< <!><• Ktauar
family. He said people like them
tpitomiie the commitment needed to
krrp an institution like the Conserva
loiy K."'"K. ' '' •'''•" umioum rd dial
Mr, Herman Krautr made a gilt »l •>
Steinway grand piano that is now in
ihrSirlbK Ki.iii*r K.KMII
TJic
San Francisco
Conservatory
of Music
Newsletter
94
Fromm: There is a room at the conservatory which is called "The Alfred
and Hanna Fromm" room because we have been connected with the
conservatory and have helped in varied and rather substantial ways
over the years.
Derfman: I understand that that room was dedicated in 1976.
Fromm: Yes, that's about right.
San Francisco Opera Association; Beard of Directors
Dorfman: The San Francisco Opera Association is the next organization to
which you have contributed much time and effort.
Fromm: Well, when we came to San Francisco, Kurt Herbert Adler with his
family came to San Francisco, too. We have known each other now
for maybe forty-five years. And we became very friendly. He was
at that time chorus master and worked his way up. He's an
extremely capable man. My wife and my oldest brother always were
very interested in the musical part of it and I was more
interested in the business side of it. They asked me to join
their board of directors. There were very few Jewish people at
that time on the board. Now that has changed. I accepted it and
have been on the board for many years. I really don't know when I
joined them, but it must be easily twenty-five years or mere.
Dorfman: What was the most difficult problem that the association had at
that time?
Fromm: Always money. There was never enough and Kurt Adler consulted me
quite a few times. There were certain problems and I said, we
should do it this way or the other way. So, as far as the musical
part is concerned, as I mentioned before, I have made no
contribution.
Every year we have a box at the opera. But not on Tuesdays.
We originally went on Tuesday which is the so-called fashionable
day. Well, I was working very hard and on Tuesday — run home, eat,
and go to the opera and then your tongue is hanging out. So, we
changed this to a box en Friday, and you know, on Friday you have
much more leisure because there's Saturday coming. So, for years
now, we have a box together with some other people on Friday.
Dorfman: I understand that you haven't been involved in musical decisions
for the opera. But how would you say the problems with which you
assisted have changed over the years?
95
Fromm: Well, some came after Kurt Herbert Adler retired as General
Director of the San Francisco Opera. A new director was appointed
and there were a lot of problems. What could one do? The top
officers of the opera called en me and we had lunch together. We
discussed how the opera could be put in a situation where there
would no longer be a deficit. This has been always a very
troublesome matter. We have given substantial amounts to the
opera to help out. This is necessary. Without money, just
nothing happens.
Dorfman: From your experience, how do you think that audiences are
changing?
Fromm: There are a lot of young people now.
Dorfman: More so, now?
Fromm: It's amazing. And it's not as formal, you know. In former years
it was the playground of the so-called society. Whenever I was
with the ether directors or officers, I always said that you have
to change that. Society is getting old or dying out and their
children don't have the same interest anymore. They don't have
the money after the inheritance taxes are paid and the fortune is
distributed to all the children. And it certainly did change the
picture.
You have an entirely different group of people today running
the opera than twenty years ago. I could foresee this very well.
I said, "Well, you've got to get some unions to make it possible
to get tickets at a low price or at certain performances, and you
must attract the young people." And they really have reached out
to all of California.
I think in the restructuring of the opera, this was
important. It was something that I was very outspoken about
because I could see that those old people one day wouldn't be
there anymore. And there wouldn't be the support for the opera,
that the opera had to get their support on a very much broader
basis.
Dorfman: So, you see a means of supporting the attendance of the young by
getting organizations to subsidize those tickets. Are there any
ether ways?
Fromm: Well, we have a number of sub-organizations in the opera like the
Medallion Society. I think you have to contribute a minimum of
five thousand dollars. Then you are invited to some of the dress
rehearsals and you have seme dinners and all those things. But
that has never meant anything to me.
Dorfman: Do you attend them?
96
Fremm: Seme of them. yes. My wife is much more interested in music than
I am.
Derfman: Why the opera and the conservatory rather than other musical
institutions, perhaps the ballet, for example?
Fromm: My wife is a graduate of the Joos School in Germany which was at
that time the most famous ballet school in Germany. She graduated
as choreographer and when she was younger she was a dancer, too.
She has much more interest in the ballet, but to me personally,
the ballet is not anything that interests me. Maybe it's just
ignorance.
Dorfman: Perhaps experience. Was your experience in Germany with opera?
Fromm: It wasn't much with opera because we lived in a small town, you
know. At that time, if you had to travel for two hours, it was
considered a long trip. If you live in America, distances have a
different meaning than they were in Europe.
Dorfman: And you have been a longtime member of the San Francisco
Commonwealth Club?
Fromm: Yes, about twenty-five years or thirty years. You know what that
is, they have some outstanding speakers. It's a very good
organization.
Dorfman: And you are also currently a member of the Concordia dub?
Fromm: Yes, also for twenty-five or thirty years.
Dorfman: Which is a social organization.
Fromm: Yes. And I am a member of Villa Taverna, which is a private
dining club.
Awards
Dorfman: You received an honorary doctorate from the University of San
Francisco for your work with the Fromm Institute for Lifelong
Learning.
Fromm: Yes, I became an Honorary Doctor of Public Service in May 1979.
My wife was awarded a degree as well.
97
Jefferson Award for Community Service; The American Institute of
Public Service
Dorfman: In 1980, you received the Jefferson Award for Community Service
from the American Institute of Public Service. Tell me about
that, please.
Fromm: Well, I didn't know anything about it. But I was nominated. You
know you never know about this beforehand.
fi
— they felt that I had rendered some public service.
Dorfman: I see. And the reception was at the Examiner?
Fromm: At the Examiner, yes.
Dorfman: I see, and you received a medal as well? There was a long article
in the Examiner giving a vitae of each honoree.
Fromm:
Yes.
Wine Spectator; First Annual Distinguished Service Award
Dorfman: You also, in 1982, received an award from the Wine Spectator.
Fromm: Yes. The Wine Spectator is the leading publication of the wine
industry for the whole country. They are the publishers of
Impact. And Impact is the leading statistical publication for the
wine and spirits industry. The Wine Spectator is part of it.
They annually give a big dinner for the wine industry and they
then select the leading restaurants with the best wine list in the
country. They compete and it's a big thing. They always have
three, four hundred people out here at the annual dinner.
It selects a person from the wine industry that has
contributed to its success, and I was the first recipient of this
honor. The second recipients after me in the following year were
Ernest and Julio Gallo. The third year recipient was Robert
Mondavi.
Dorfman: Prestigious company.
Fromm: Yes. Yes, you have the medal here.
97a
Ptg» 4 Scene
Mar. 23. 1980
S.F. Sunday Examiner & Chronicle
The gifts of wine and learning
By Mildred Hamilton
£ £• T B NK-E to &ve Wlth warc
i* hands," sa>-s Alfred Fromm,
U who also gives with a grateful
1 heart,
W* The refugee who fled the
™ Nazis to. build a successful new
life in the United States enjoys sharing.
'1 am fortunate in being able to help,
and I like to see the results of it while I
am alrve" .
In the business world, Fromm to
known as the chairman of the board of
Fromm & Sichel Inc, world-wide
distributors of Christian Brothers
win«. In the world of philanthropy,
education and culture, he to known for
innovative Ideas and gifts that enhance
Bay Area life and set examples copied
across the country.
"I am happy here This country has
been good to me Whatever I have
done has been just a small repayment
of what I owe the United States. You
cant be a good citizen if you only
take," said Fromm, an erect impres
sive and elegantly tailored man with
thick, wavy gray hair and a serious
mien. .
He sat fa his Beach Street office,
richly paneled in wood and decorated
with wine theme paintings and photo
graphs, a few days after he and his
twin brother Herbert, a Boston com
poser and author, had celebrated their
75th birthdays at a family gathering. "I
blew out all 75 candles on my cake," he
said with a smile
Alfred Fromm to eligible to enroll in
one of his favorite creations, the
Fromm Institute at the University of
San Francisco, which he and his wife
Ilanna founded in 1976 for education-
yearning 90- to 90-year-olds.
He smiled at the prospect 1 dont
plan to retire, but if I did, I would go
back to school, and I would not want to
go back with my grandchildren."
That was part of the sentiment
behind the Fromm Institute, a univer
sity within a university where older
students would be taught by retired
professors but would be able to mix
wTOTyounger students. Last year USt"
conferred the honorary degree, doctor
of public service, on both Fromm and
his wife in appreciation for the
institute.
He views the institute as "some
thing that had to be done and had
never been done before Eleven per
cent of today's population to over age
65, and by the year 2000, it will be 21
percent this kind of institute for life-,
long learning prevents vegetation in
retirement and opens the joy of
learning to all."
The Fromm Institute has attracted^
world-wide attention and is rapidly
becoming a model "We have had 88
universities and colleges write us after
reading about it to ask for details to do
something similar." •
The wine merchant laments his
own lack of formal schooling. "I teft
school at 15 to become a wine
apprentice" in Germany, where his
family bad been in the wine business
nearly 200 years. "I have had to learn
by listening and by association,"
He made his first trip to California
in 1934, "during Prohibition, to make a
study of the wine business that didn't
exist then." Because he was Jewish, he
fled Germany in 1936. He became a
partner in a wine import firm, and
eventually he was able to get his six
brothers and sisters, his parents and
other relatives out
jmm, who"still has a hint of what
he calls "my South Bavarian accent"
recalled building a wine business. "If
people know you are working hard
and are honest they win help. Mr. AP.
Giannini and the Bank of America
helped at the start when we needed it
most I havent forgotten they gave me
my first credit without collateral I
used to go in at 8 a.m. and see Mr.
Giannini that was 40 years ago. He was
very good to us when we needed it
and I have a great feeling of grtteful-
ness. That to the only place we have
ever done business." J
Fromm & Sicbel Inc. does a lot of
business, distributing the Christian
Brothers wines in 75 countries today.
His partner Franz Sichel died 11
years ago, and Fromm, who has been a
regent of St Mary's College for years,
is particularly proud of the new
biochemistry building, Sichel Hall on
the Moraga campus. The foundation
bearing the Sichel name, of which
Fromra to president donated much of
the cost of the building. Fromm
received an honorary doctorate from
St Mary's in 1974.
He and his late brother Norman
were involved in starting the Music in
the Vineyards programs at the Paul
Masson winery in Saratoga in the 1950s.
Now a popular tradition, the vineyard
concerts have been widely copied
-
98
Hebrew University; Torch ef Learning
Dorfman: Oh, that's lovely. First Annual Distinguished Service Award. We
have a few more here. In 198A, you received the Torch of Learning
from the Hebrew University. That was a joint award, was it?
Fromm: Yes, to my wife and to me. As you knew, that was in recognition
for our having founded and funded the Fromm Institute for Lifelong
Learning at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem.
Dorfman: And then in 1980, you received a Founder's Medal?
Fromm: Oh, from the Hebrew University. We have received so many of those
things from organizations and the Israel Bond Office because over
the years we have given a substantial amount. We get all kinds ef
things, but I really don't count them anymore because I even don't
know what to do with all of them.
Share Zedek Hospital, Israel; Founders' Stone Trophy
Dorfman: And then in 1977, you and Mrs. Fromm received a Founders' Stone
Trophy for support of a hospital in Jerusalem.
Fromm: Yes, that's the Share Zedek Hospital. The grandfather of my wife,
Abraham Gruenbaum, he was one of the founders ef Share Zedek
Hospital, Jerusalem in 1890. So, we always have been interested
in Share Zedek and we have supported it.
Dorfman: And that was in recognition of that effort, continuing support?
Fr omm : Yes.
Brandeis University Distinguished Community Service Award
Dorfman: And then in 1975, you received the Brandeis University
Distinguished Community Service Award.
Fromm: Yes, at the Brandeis University Library the Alfred and Hanna Fromm
Fund was established. But we have no direct involvement in
Brandeis University.
Dorfman: This was a fund that was established?
Fromm: Yes, either a fund or a scholarship. It particularly benefited
the library.
99
A Key t© the City from Mayor Joseph Alioto. 1974
Dorfman: And then you also received the key to the city from Mayor Joseph
Aliote.
Fremm: Yes. I have it right here. As I have told you before, I founded
the Wine Museum of San Francisco. It was inaugurated on January
21. 1974. I asked Mayor . Alioto, whom 1 knew quite well, if he would
speak and make the official dedication, which he was very happy to
do. He is a fabulous speaker. And after the ceremony he gave me
the key to the city and said this was a special honor that he
would be happy to have me accept. Now, I understand, the keys are
not solid iron anymore. [laughter]
Dorfman: It's a very heavy piece, isn't it? While we're speaking of Mayor
Alioto since you knew him so well, what can you tell me about your
memories of him, particularly of when you worked with him.
Fromm: Well, I worked on a few things in the interest of the city. My
wife and I, we knew him socially, and after his divorce, we knew
his new wife. too. She is a very nice person. But this was more
or less a social contact. I have not been involved too much in
city affairs. It always has been a matter of fact for me because
running the business was the first priority. If you don't make
the money, you cannot give anything. So, I always knew that. But
it had to have the first priority.
Memories of Kurt Adler, General Director, San Francisco Opera
Dorfman: What are your memories of Kurt Adler?
Fremm: Kurt Adler is a very capable man. He can be very rough with
people, but he did something that very few other general directors
of opera have done. He negotiated with the unions. He handled
the musical parts, the whole administration and he's a very good
money raiser. This is one of the greatest attributes for a
general director of the opera today. You know, it's easier
possibly to find experts in many phases of whatever it might be,
but it's difficult to find a man who has a total concept of
something. And Kurt Adler certainly had it. He got the most
famous singers here, and he cajoled them. But they came. While
he was there, I think, the financial situation of the opera was
very much better.
And then the new man came, and there were some very sizable
deficits. But we are now in the process of trying to cure this.
Adler is a very excellent manager. Many people said that they
100
Fromm: couldn't get along with him because he was very rough, but. you
know, sometimes, to deal with all the egos of the singers is not
easy.
Dorfman: What are the greatest differences between Kurt Adler and Terence
McEwen, his replacement?
Fromm: Well, Kurt Adler was an outstanding good administrator. He was so
in all phases of the opera. He really lived it from early morning
until late night, and a very forceful person. Now, McEwen, he
comes from the recording business in London. He's a very
personable guy and knows quite a lot about music, but in my
opinion, he doesn't have the strength and the totality that Adler
had in the j ob.
101
XII
REFLECTIONS ON BUSINESS
[Date of Interview: May 22, 1987]
An Important Business Experience in 1942
Dorfman: Mr. Fromm, you were going to tell me about an important experience
in 1942 that made a substantial change in your business career.
Fromm: Yes. As you know, I was a partner in the firm of Picker-Linz
Importers, Inc., in New York, and we had the exclusive
distribution rights of the Christian Brothers of Napa for their
wines and brandy. This business developed very well, and I became
the focal point of it because my partners in New York hardly knew
anything about the wine business. They had, during the fourteen
years of Prohibition, been in other professions. The Christian
Brothers insisted that they only wanted to deal with me. The
president of the firm at that time was Dave Boley, a very intelli
gent man, a hunchback* very small-minded and extremely jealous.
He was a bachelor for many years, but had an operation, met a
nurse, and married her. She was an ambitious and jealous person
and egged Boley on — that he was the president of the firm and he
really should carry on all negotiations, why should I [Alfred
Fromm] do it? — and in short, she made a lot of trouble. One day
when I arrived at my office in San Francisco, the office was
locked and there was a note that the keys had been changed and
that I would not be able to enter by myself. An employee of the
firm, and a friend of Boley, had come from New York to take charge
of the office. Well, of course, that made me very angry because I
was really the one who was running the firm. And I was
responsible for the relationship with the Christian Brothers. No
easy matter because you are dealing with members of a religious
order with limited business experience. I had earned their trust
with my dealings with them over a period of time.
Fromm: I called a well-known attorney in New York, Abe Pomerantz, whom I
knew. His specialty was cases dealing with the protection of
minority stockholders. I went to New York and saw him. In the
x
102
Dorfman:
Fromm:
meantime, I received a letter from the firm that my partners
wanted me out. and they would be willing to buy my stock at long
terms and a low price. Well, I was furious! And my attorney said
there was absolutely no good reason for the firm's actions.
Brother John, the manager of the Christian Brothers Winery,
accompanied me when I went to New York. He told Mr. Boley and the
other members that if I was not a member of the firm and in charge
of the relationship with them, they would return to the provisions
of the original contract and supply us only a minimum quantity of
wine and brandy. That would have been only a fraction of what we
needed for our business. We were, by that time, quite successful
and prosperous. A short, armed truce was agreed upon.
The firm and Mr. Boley were represented by Judge Proskauer,
the head of a very prominent law firm in New York. He said to me,
"Well, I don't think that what the firm wants to do is right, do
you? But you must straighten it out somehow." In other words, he
felt that this was a personal vendetta that would be very harmful
to the firm. In fact, I believe it would have been the end of the
firm if they had succeeded, and of the very good salaries we were
able to pay, and the end of our fine profits. So, we negotiated
with the other partners and they decided, with very little
foresight, to sell out to me, if I could raise the money.
I had talked before to a number of my largest distributors
throughout the country, and they were quite willing to invest a
certain amount of money, so that together with my own funds we
could purchase, for cash, the stock of my partners. I had met
Franz Sichel before. He came from Mainz which was very close to
Bingen, from where we came, and our families were friends — my
father, and probably my grandfather as well.
Then you had known Franz Sichel previously?
While I hardly knew him personally, I knew the firm and the family
well. And Franz said to me, "Why don't we get together and become
partners?" I said, "That would be fine with me, but where do you
get the money? I can put up my share of the capital and I have
some good credit in the Bank of America. But what about you?"
Franz had just come over from England, and he had very, very
little money as the Nazis had taken everything from them, as they
did with any Jewish firm.
Franz Sichel knew Samuel Bronfman, the founder and head of
Seagram's, quite well. He had met Mr. Sam and his wife some years
back in Berlin and had a very friendly relationship with them. He
introduced me and we sat down with Mr. Sam, as he was known. He
said to us, "I will buy the majority of your firm for cash and you
will have access to all the money you need, under one condition,
that you and Franz remain partners with Seagram." I said, "I
103
would not have it done any other way. I have never been just an
employee, I have always been a business owner. I have a great
stake in the development of this business." He said, "That's
fine."
So, arrangements were made and Seagram's bought seventy
percent of the stock of Picker-Linz Importers, Inc., and we
changed the name to Fromm and Sichel, Inc. I could not have
handled the many problems and anxieties during these trying times
without the support and help of my wife.
Franz was much older than I, about ten or twelve years. I
said, "Franz, you become the president," as titles never meant
anything to me. I became the executive vice president, and then
some years later president and chief executive officer, and
chairman of the board after Franz's death.
So, I went to the Bank of America and saw my friend and top
executive, Mr. Fred Ferrogiaro, who was the head of the world-wide
loan department. At that time, the bank was not as big as it was
later on. I always could see him at eight o'clock in the morning
to talk to him before nine o'clock, when the bank officially
opened. I said, "Mr. Ferrogiaro, I need about three hundred
thousand dollars. I will put in two hundred thousand of my own,
but this is as much as I want to invest because if something
should happen to me, I don't want my family to be without funds."
He said that was all right, that was good. So I asked him, "What
is the interest rate? Mr. Ferrogiaro, I am really looking for a
good interest rate, because you know, I'm going to pay." Well, he
laughed and said, "How about two percent?"
Dorfman: That was 1942?
Fromm: Yes, 19A2. I said, "That's a little high." And so we argued back
and forth. And we finally arrived at one and three-quarter
percent. He said to me, "You know, Alfred, why I will give you
that rate? Because people who are so insistent on a low interest
rate are the ones who will pay. The ones who don't pay are the
ones who don't care." He said, "This will go on a six month note
and it will be renewed when it comes due." "No," I said, "I can't
borrow money on that basis. I need a firm, three-year commitment
of the bank to sleep peacefully. Then I can pay it off in three
years. "
Well, he finally agreed to that too — by that time, the firm
had a good name, the Christian Brothers had a good name, and I had
been in California for a few years and had done business with the
bank personally. So they knew me quite well and we finally
arranged that it would be a three year credit, at one and three-
fourth percent. The prime rate at that time was one and one-half
percent.
104
Dorfman :
Fromm:
After one and a half years. I paid my loan off. because we
made very good money in those years and we lived very frugally.
Franz Sichel didn't have the funds available ax. that time, but he
had them in later years when his family received restitution from
the German government. He needed at least the same amount of
credit that I had. He went to Sam Bronfman for help. Sam said,
"I will guarantee the credit. So you can get what you need."
This was also paid off in one and a half years. It really was the
Seagram's guarantee that made it possible for Franz to join me as
a partner. We paid off all the old partners, and the firm was
then transferred a few years later to San Francisco.
A rapid development followed. We became one of the largest
and most prosperous firms in the quality wine industry. During
the difficulties in my firm, I got an offer from younger brother
Paul in Chicago who had a small import business. He said, "You
can come to Chicago and join me as a partner anytime you want."
I said, "Paul, this is not what I want, I want to stay in
California. And, in addition, you have other interests and are
satisfied with a small and prosperous business, but I would be
satisfied only with a large and prosperous business." But I never
forgot it. As I mentioned before, my brother Paul had quite some
influence on my life, and I believe that I was an influence on
his, as we were very close.
What happened to Dave Boley and the other partners?
Well, David Boley became ill and died a few years later, and no
one ever heard his name again. The others invested their money,
but if they had remained with the firm, they would have become
millionaires. Boley had poisoned the minds of the others. Never
have I met a man in my life like him.
You can see the intimate relationship that existed between us
and Samuel Bronfman. Our firm had become a very profitable
investment for Seagram — many, many times over what they had
invested. When the business was sold back to the Christian
Brothers, it was a very strong and prosperous firm. During our
long partnership, we never asked Seagram for any help. Whenever
we had a problem, we told them what the problem was and what we
wanted to do about it. So it was a very fine relationship that we
had with Mr. Sam and, later, with his sons, Edgar in New York,
Charles in Montreal, and their top executives.
105
Lengthy Partnership with Franz Sichel
Dorfman: You were planning to discuss your relationship with your partner,
Franz Sichel.
Fromm: Franz and I got along marvelously. We were partners for almost
twenty-five years, until he died. We never had a cross word — I
loved him like a brother. Franz was a very fine man, with a very
good background in the wine business. A very decent and
experienced business man with a very gentlemanly way about him.
We understood each other very well. As I lived in California, we
talked on the telephone every Sunday for about an hour or an hour
and a half about whatever was going on. It was a happy
relationship with mutual trust. I was able to develop some good
executives who had their share in the progress of the firm.
I negotiated the contract with the Christian Brothers for an
extension of the time that we would be their world-wide
distributor. The large development — the increase in the size of
the firm and the profits — really came after the firm was
transferred to San Francisco, because the wine industry in
California became important and we took our share of it.
Dorfman: I see. That is certainly very interesting. Have you been in
contact with Franz Sichel1 s family since his death?
Fromm: Yes. Some of his cousins are good friends of mine. Franz got
married late in life. He was in his middle sixties. Sylvia, his
wife, was an actress whom he knew from Berlin. I now have very
little contact with her.
I encouraged Franz to form the Franz W. Sichel Foundation in
New York. While he was still alive, Franz and I owned some very
valuable real estate together in California. I had asked him to
join me, as I felt that if you are going to be in a partnership,
you should do this all the time. This became very valuable land
in the Silicon Valley in the San Jose area. Franz put all of this
land in the Franz Sichel Foundation so that it was out of his
estate. A lot of good has been done through the Franz Sichel
Foundation. It started with a valuable collection of old wine
glasses, and Franz was very well advised by some experts. These
wine glasses were displayed for ten years at the Wine Museum of
San Francisco. They are now housed in a special room, the Franz
W. Sichel Room in the de Young Museum in Golden Gate Park in San
Francisco.
As you know, I was always very closely connected with St.
Mary's College of the Christian Brothers, and arranged for the
Franz W. Sichel Foundation to put half a million dollars into a
biology building that carried Franz's name. I was president of
•>
Mr. and Mrs. Alfred Fromm and Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco Director
Ian McKibbin White toast the inauguration of the long-term loan of the
Franz W. Sichel Collection of drinking vessels.
"Photograph "by Triptych
Left to Right: Franz W. Sichel;, Brother Gregory, President Mont La Salle
Vineyards.; Reverend Brother Charles Henry Ȥuperior General of Christian
Brothers: Alfred Fromm. 1967.
106
Fromm:
Dorf man:
the foundation after Franz's death for ten or twelve years and
believe that the funds were distributed to a number of good
causes.
The impact of this experience in 1942 on your business career is
very clear.
[Interview 6: January 31, 1986] ##
Changes
Dorf man: I'd like to go on to ask what is the most important change that
you have seen in business since, let us say, the twenties or the
thirties?
Fromm: I think the most important part is that the California Wine
Industry, that hardly existed when Prohibition was repealed on
December 5, 1933, has developed into a very large industry that
has really gained world class. There is a small group of top
wineries called "boutique wineries" that make outstanding products
that compare with almost the best made in Europe.
The second important development was that America was not a
wine-drinking country at all, because there were fourteen years of
Prohibition. People drank hard liquor, they liked to get drunk,
and today you have a great acceptance of wine as a social drink,
and quite a few people who are very knowledgeable about wine or
like to learn about wine. So American has actually become a wine-
drinking country. It is in no way comparable to France and Italy,
but wine has been there forever. So, this is a new thing, but in
America if there is something that is good, then it is embraced by
many people, and it can become an important industry as the
California Wine Industry did. That was really the main
development.
The Future
Dorf man: What do you look forward to for the wine business?
107
Fronm: The wine business presently has quite some difficulties, like the
wine businesses all over the world, because of overproduction, and
there is a tremendous amount of competition. When I first came to
this country, I think there were twenty-one wineries after
Prohibition was repealed. Today you have 650 wineries. There
will be a sifting out. And then of course there's the fact that
large whiskey distillers and other giant American firms went into
the wine business toe, like Seagram's and Coca-Cola. Reynolds
Tobacco Company and others. There was no capital in the American
wine industry when we started, because it was entirely new and few
people had any money in those days anyway. But today it's a big-
money industry and very large amounts have been invested in
vineyards and in wineries, including substantial amounts by
European and Asian firms.
Dorfman: So you think that there will be a sif ting-out, which would reduce
the number of companies involved?
Fromm: Yes, or consolidations, but the present situation is
unsatisfactory all over the world.
Dorfman: Do you foresee other large changes in the industry in the future?
Fromm: Well. I don't think so for the foreseeable future. The problem
with the wine industry is that we have to get more people to drink
wine, because there are many millions of people in America who can
well afford it. And wine is reasonable in price. This means that
there will be campaigns in the promotion of wine, in popularizing
wine so that the average person, instead of drinking hard liquor
or beer might once in a while drink a good glass of wine. If
people in America only for Easter, for Thanksgiving and for
Christmas, would buy one or two bottles of wine, the business would
be double what it is today. So we may have a long way to go, but
it's a young business. The consumption of hard liquor has
declined in the last few years, which gives the wine business an
additional chance.
Dorfman: What role do you think the new products will play, such as the
coolers?
Fromm: Our main thrust is to have people consume wine with meals, with
food. It's the way wine can be enjoyed most and it's a good way.
It doesn't increase drunkenness, just the contrary, there are very
well-known health effects for consuming wine in moderation.
The coolers have become very important. They are low in
alcohol because they contain no more than half wine, the rest is
fruit juice with sparkling water. I believe they have seen their
best days, and consumption of coolers will decline.
-
108
Recognition of Social Change by Business
Dorfman: Well, we've talked about what you foresee and what you have seen
as changes in the wine industry over many years. What do you
think the most significant social changes have been, in general,
in this country?
Fromm: Today I think there is much greater social recognition by business
than there was when I first came over in 1933. In those days,
there were some large firms that controlled a great deal of the
business life. And they really didn't care very much about their
employees. With the inauguration of Social Security and of health
insurance, it is today a different way than it was in those days.
At that time, there were millions of people out ef work and no
help for them. When I arrived in 1933, the Depression was still
en. The safety of the people today is very much greater than it
was in former years. I think it is recognized more and more by
even the most ardent conservatives today that those people have a
voice and they have a vote. So I would say that in this respect,
conditions in the United States are much better for the average
man than they ever were.
Of course, there are great problems today with our large
budget deficits and our very large deficit in the trade balance of
the country, and the enormous amounts that the government expends
on armament.
Hopefully, we will come to some sort of an understanding with
the Soviets, because I think the main problem today in the world
economy is the distrust that we have against the Russians and they
have against us. If it ever would come to some understanding, it
would help both countries immensely. I think you would see a
development of the economies that nobody can even think of today.
With the great danger of nuclear war, and particularly with
nuclear weapons in the hands of some irresponsible people, like
the Libyans and others, if America and the Soviet Union could
come to some understanding, I think you would see a golden age.
Dorfman: What do you think is the likelihood of that?
Fromm: Over the long run, I think it has to happen er the world will go
up in flames. And there will be no victor.
Expertise
Dorfman: You have worked with many organizations ever a long period of
time. What special skill do you offer?
109
Fromm: Well, I have seme organizational experience and common sense. I
have helped in fund-raising in addition to our giving substantial
amounts over the years. As a head of a business for so many years
I think I have the capacity to get the facts together under one
umbrella. This is very important when you're head of an
organization — I always felt in business, too — the most important
part that I had to play was to get the total concept of what was
going on and not get lest in all the details and individual
knowledge of certain problems. Because you can find people for
that, but there are not enough people who see the whole picture.
I always considered that was my main role. And to show the
people who worked with me that I could do it, and therefore they
could do it. It's very easy to tell other people to do something,
and they don't respect you if they can say, "Well, the guy is just
talking." I always have tried to show that it can be done, if it
was in sales or in any other matters. That worked out quite well
for the firm and for me personally.
Dorftnan: What business plans do you have for the future?
Fromm:
Derfman :
Fromm:
Well, I have no particular plans. Of course, I'm running my own
affairs. You could say of the investments that we have to make,
the greatest threat is inflation. You don't know when it will
break out again. I believe it will. I really have no particular
business ambitions any more, because I would like to use the time
that's still given to me to assist the San Francisco Jewish
Community Museum, the Fromm Institute for Lifelong Learning, and
some ether organizations that I'm connected with. I think I can
make some more contributions there, and this is something which
would be very close to my heart. I'm not in business any more to
make any more money, because money just has a limited value. I
have talked to many people during my life, and they often said,
"If I only had a little money I would be happy." They do not
understand what money cannot do.
What are the other organizations that you referred to just now, in
addition to the Fromm Institute and the Jewish museum?
There is the Wine Marketing Center at the University of San
Francisco, and the other charitable enterprises in which I'm
active. I really hope that in the coming years I can do some
good.
On Contributions of Women
Derfman: You've related with a great many women in your business and
community careers who have made special contributions. Is there
one, or several, in particul ar whose contributions are marked
enough for you to mention?
•>
110
Fromm: There are in almost any organization some outstanding women who
make great contributions. In addition to that, voluntary work
that is done by women is invaluable, because most organizations
couldn't afford to do it any other way. I have met over the years
a number of people for whom I have the highest respect, and I feel
that they have done a lot of good, and are a good example for men
and women.
Dorfman:
Fromm:
Dorfman;
Fromm:
Now. Mrs. Fromm has been very active, and has done much important
work. What is her strongest and most important contribution?
She is the Executive Director of the Fromm Institute for Lifelong
Learning at the University of San Francisco, and she has headed it
since its founding which was eleven years ago. She spends a few
days every week at the Institute, and the development of the
institute to the leading one of its kind in the USA has been to a
good part her devotion and work.
What particular qualities and attributes does Mrs. Fromm bring to
that role?
She is intelligent, she knows what can and cannot be done. She
has a good way of having other people work with her, because she
is not bossy. She listens. And, she generally has very good
relationships with the people who work with and under her.
Preparation for Successful Volunteerism
Dorfman: Again, in view of what you have learned, suppose a successful
young man or woman was interested in making a civic contribution
and came to you. How would you advise that person to prepare
himself?
Fromm:
That person should check out very carefully what he or she wants
to do, and would have to be aware that making a contribution is
not only a financial matter, but a matter of giving of yourself.
You have to take this person's interest into account. He or she
will prepare to do a lot of work, because en any board I have been
connected with most of the directors and trustees really are there
to give money, or to lend a well-known name. They really are not
active. The active work is done by a few persons only. This is a
very unfortunate situation. I have seen it in every organization
in which I have been connected.
Dorfman: How have you surmounted that problem over the years?
Ill
Framm: In the organizations I was closely connected with, we always had a
small group of experienced people who worked. We got together,
came to conclusions, and submitted them to the board. I don't
think that I ever remember our suggestions being turned down,
because the people were happy to have a few people who did the
work.
Dorfman: What kind of an education would you suggest that the young person,
to whom I referred might obtain to prepare himself?
Fromm: Well, as you know, I have no particular education, except for what
I have learned throughout my life. I've worked since I was
fifteen years eld, and I never found this any handicap. A college
education is certainly of value, but a graduate might have some
pieces of knowledge, but without a real connecting knowledge which
I think is the most important part. There are many people who
understand details, and can always add needed information. I
think a college education and work on the outside are important,
because you cannot do anything for others if you do not have the
experience on your own. I have seen the children of some very
wealthy people do some very marvelous things, and I have seen very
many who haven't done anything. They just luxuriated in the money
that they inherited. For those people, I don't have any
particular respect.
I think it is important if someone is able to make a
contribution, that he or she have some really good personal
experience. This means selling, administration — because in the
end, whatever you do, it always involves some selling.
Dorfman: And so some experience and broadening.
How do you suggest that this young person might begin?
Fromm: Well, it depends on what he or she likes to do. You cannot be
successful in your own affairs and the affairs of others if you do
not have a full commitment. And you can only make a commitment to
something that you are involved in and that you really want to do.
I think you do it because you feel you must and to maintain your
self-respect. If you do anything for publicity, I always tell
people, "Don't do it."
Dorfman : Why not?
Fromm: Because there is no commitment in it.
D»rfman: Hew would our young person, then, choose the right kind of civic
work? How could he find the work he's best at, and enjoys the
most?
"
112
Fromm: Well, it depends on the inclinations of the person. There are
people who like to deal with young people; there certainly is a
lot to be done. There is a lot to be done for eld people, in
which my wife and I are particularly involved. There is a drug
problem, a crime problem — there are nothing but problems,
actually. So whatever a person feels might particularly interest
them, I think then they should look to what kind of an
organization is engaged in that, and determine if that is an
organization where he or she wants to work. Many of these
organizations are ossified, and are run by people who are a little
bit too old. I shouldn't say that, because I will be 82 years eld
next month, but I don't feel that eld!
Dorfman: How might this man er woman set up his or her own professional
life to allow time for civic work?
Fromm: If you really want to do it, you have time. In the first few
years when you are establishing yourself, and I can speak here for
myself, you don't have the time to do anything for other people.
Particularly when you come over as an immigrant without money, and
have to learn the language, and find the different ways of doing
business here in America as compared to Europe. But after you are
established, to some extent, you just have to make the time.
Doing things for some of these organizations has meant a lot of
work for me in the evenings. I just did not have the time during
the day. That gave me seme time to devote to other matters.
Dorfman: Sounds as if you took on another job.
Fromm: Yes. it is in some ways, I guess. You should net join an
organization unless you are willing to do some actual work and
take an interest. So it has to be something that interests the
person.
Dorfman: And what are the greatest rewards that this young person might
look forward to?
Fromm: To me the greatest reward is that I have fulfilled something about
which I feel very strongly. It is necessary when you come over
here as an immigrant, that you have to contribute something to the
country that gives you a home and a chance. Also to maintain yeur
self-respect. Because as I have said to you before. I don't think
I deserve any credit for what I have done. I only did what I felt
I had to do, and because I felt an obligation not only to this
country but to myself and to my family.
Dorfman: And the disappointments?
Fromm: In whatever you do, there are always disappointments. There are
people who promise a lot and don't do anything, this is a
disappointment. There are people whom you trust, and find out
113
Fromm: maybe you shouldn't have trusted them. It's often a
disappointment that things do not go as fast as young people
particularly think they should go. It takes a certain amount of
patience and determination, and realization that to do something
right might take time.
114
XIII PERSONAL PHILOSOPHY
Dorfman: In the years to come, what would you like the record to reflect
about you?
Fromm: I'd like to continue what I'm doing now, as long as I am able.
When the time comes that I am no longer alive, my wife and I have
made substantial previsions for what we leave behind us in earthly
goods. This will go into the Alfred and Hanna Fromm Fund that we
founded many years ago to continue what she and I have been
connected with and feel very strongly about.
Dorfman: What is it that you feel that you will leave behind in a non-
material way?
Fromm: I hope and I think that I can leave behind me the people who have
respected me. To me this is the first consideration if you deal
with people, that you gain their trust and respect. Out of this
very often comes liking. But if someone just likes you and
doesn't respect you, you've got nothing.
We hope to leave a family and group of friends behind who
keep us in good memory.
Dorfman: And in a more personal vein, and part of this you touched upon,
what are your expectations of your grandchildren?
Fromm: Whatever they do, I hope they will do well, and understand that in
today's life; one does not do things one hundred percent for
oneself. One has to consider how it affects other people, and
should continue to contribute not only through their work, but
also in ether ways that can be helpful te people.
Dorfman: And what else would you add, before we close?
Fromm: You don't know how life will develop. So far our grandchildren
are honest, they are straightforward, they are excellent students,
they are good sportsmen, they are doing exceedingly well in
college — so we have the hope that they will amount te something —
115
Fremm: even though there is no guarantee. The parents of our
grandchildren are good and committed people. There is much love
in our family and we hope it will guide our grandchildren in their
lives.
Dorfman: Well, with their fine background —
Fromm: I have seen children from people with very good backgrounds who
unfortunately did not turn out. All we hope and pray is that our
grandchildren will do well.
Dorfman: Thank you so much for your time and the valuable historical
information.
Fromm: I want to thank you for your patience.
ABOVE: Back, kneeling: Marc Fromm. Seated; Kathleen, David, and Kenneth Froiran.
Front: Barbara Fromm.
BELOW: Rabbi and Mrs. Brian Lurie (Caroline Fromm), 1986.
115a
Concluding Thoughts After Last Interview
January 27, 1988
To: Regional Oral History Office
The Bancroft Library
University of California
I suggest for the end of my interview the following:
I am obliged to Mrs. Dorfman for her patience. Some of the matters
discussed I felt were of . scant interest; however/ Mrs. Dorfman believes
that they should be part of the interview to round out the picture of
one's personality.
Life has been good to me. I married a beautiful woman who has been
a good wife and an intelligent adviser/ who helped me tremendously in
reaching certain goals I had set for myself. We have loving/ good
children, who have made a success of their lives and have married
spouses who are a full part of our family.
Our son David's wife Barbara is a sterling woman, intelligent, kind/
and modest, who has brought up three fine children.
Our daughter Caroline is married to Rabbi Brian Lurie. Like many
fathers I felt that there is no man good enough to marry our daughter.
I have completely relented because Brian is a very fine and highly
intelligent person and one of the important young Jewish leaders in
this country. Our daughter Caroline has brought sunshine into my life
since she was a little girl; she and Brian have two lovely children —
a boy three-and-a-half years old and a girl six months old.
David is an outstanding surgeon with an illustrious career. He was
for some years professor at Harvard University Medical School/ and
was appointed chief of surgery at New York State University at their
medical campus in Syracuse, N.Y. for eight years. He was selected
in January 1988 as chief of surgery and professor at Wayne State
University in Detroit, a very big job in his field. He is in charge
of surgery for four hospitals, heading up a staff of 42 professors.
(continued)
115b
January 27, 1988
To: Regional Oral History Office
page 2
Based on my life experience, I would like my grandchildren to know
some of the experiences that have shaped my life. Most important
in whatever one does is a strong sense of integrity in order to
retain one's self-worth and self-respect. In one's professional
life, one should be guided by enlightened self-interest and strive
for excellence. Thi.s makes it possible to help others who are less
fortunate. I consider it an obligation for the gifted and intelligent
to make their contribution to the community.
I would like to advise the young people who will come after me not
to do anything for credit's sake or out of vanity. The reward is
in one's own satisfaction. While I do not want to sermonize, I hope
that our children and grandchildren will think of Ma and me that we
have tried in life to do right and that we loved our children and
grandchildren dearly.
Alfred Fromm
>
INTERVIEW WITH HANNA GRUENBAUM FROMM
v
116
FROMM, HANN'A, educational administrator; b. Nuremberg, W.Gcr., Dec.
20, 1913; d. David and Mela (Stiebel) Grucnbaum; m. Alfred Fromm, July 4,
1936; children — David. Caroline Fromm Lurie. Grad. in choreography and
music Folkwang Sch. Dancing and Mus-.t, Eiscn, Gemany, 1934; D.Pub.
Service (hon.), U. San Francisco. 1979. Served with ARC, World War II;
exec. dir. Fromm Inst. Lifelong Learning, U. San Francisco, 1973 — . Co-
founder Music in the Vineyards, Saratoga. Calif.; bd. dirs. Amnesty In
ternal., Nat. Council of Fine Arts Museums; former bd. dirs. Young
Audiences, Community Music Ctr.. Leg^l Aid to Elderly, San Francisco
Chamber Music Soc.; coordinating com. geriatric curriculum and program U.
Calif.-San Francisco; dir. Nat. Council oft Aging. Mem. Gerontology Soc.
Am., Psychoanalytic Inst. of San Frwdsco Jewish. Club: Met. (San
Francisco). Home: 850 El Camino del Mar San Francisco CA 94121 Office:
538 University Center 2130 Fulton St San Francisco CA 94117
From tfho 's Who in the West
21st Edition
117
XIV HANNA GRUENBAUM FROMM
[Interview with Hanna Fromm: December 23. 1985]##
Childhood in Germany
Dorfman: Would you tell me about the world of your childhood?
H. Fromm: We lived in Nuremberg, one of the largest cities in Bavaria. I
had a wonderful, secure childhood. I was born after my parents
were married for ten years. They were first cousins, and I think
they were reluctant to have children. I come from a very large
family. My father had nine brothers and sisters, and my mother
had five brothers and sisters, so there were lots of cousins, and
lots of company. My parents were very cultured and lots of
artists, writers, and musicians came to our home. My father was
also a good violinist with his own quartet. World War I broke out
when I was born. My father served in the Germany army as a
physician for four years.
Religion in the Family
Dorfman: Would you discuss the extent of religion in your childhood?
H. Fromm: My grandparents were very Orthodox, and my parents kept a kosher
household in deference to their parents. So I grew up in this
atmosphere. In those days, you tried to do what the grandparents
wanted you to do.
I wasn't allowed to carry things on Saturday. I did at
times, but my grandmother saw me once, when I stuffed a book under
my coat, and all she said, "I think you gained a little weight."
She was a wise woman. They wouldn't turn on electric lights, on
Saturdays. They were really, really very Orthodox, and also very
charitable. My grandfather was a prominent businessman in the
gold leaf business and highly regarded in the Jewish community.
He was very Orthodox.
118
H. Fromm: Half of my family is very religious, the ones now living in Israel
still are.
Dorfman: Did you attend services as a child, you and your parents as well?
H. Fromm: I remember that I did only on High Holidays. I had private
lessons in, I think it was the Chumesh. [The five books of Moses]
I really don't remember, because I resented it so much. Every
time I asked a question, "Why?", this teacher would say, "You're
not to ask why, you're simply to believe and to do."
Dorfman: That must have been difficult for you.
H. Fromm: [laughs] It was. I always asked why, and never got an answer,
and that didn't please me — just to blindly obey laws.
Dorfman: Did you have mostly Jewish friends as a child?
H. Fromm: Yes. I really didn't have any non-Jewish friends.
Dorfman: The area in which you lived, was that primarily peopled by Jewish
families?
Every Friday evening we went to my grandparents' for dinner —
and there were twenty-five, thirty people. Since I was an only
child and a late comer, I was very spoiled. Very spoiled and very
loved; I had a wonderful childhood.
The only bad memory I have is walking to school with my best
friend and there were always kids who yelled to us, "Jewl Jew!
Hep, hep, hep! Pork is fat, fat, fat! Jew, stinking Jew!" This
was the fear of my life.
Dorfman: How old were you when this happened?
H. Fromm: Oh, school age; six, eight, nine.
Dorfman: How frightening.
H. Fromm: It was. I mean, anti-Semitism of this kind was rampant even then,
particularly with the lower-class people.
Impact of Father' s Death
H. Fromm: It was 1923, or before. Otherwise, I had a wonderful childhood,
until my father, who was a very busy and famous gynecologist and
surgeon, died within four days of pneumonia, when I was fourteen.
He had been a leader in the Jewish community and as a doctor had
118a
H. Fromm: been consulted from far and wide. And then my world fell to
pieces. He asked me to come into his room just before he died,
and told me he was dying.
He said goodbye, and said 1 have to take care of my mother.
From then on, things were rather difficult.
Dorfman: One can imagine.
H. Fromm: He wanted me to be a physician, and he trained me at an early age.
He taught me about anatomy, and how to use the microscope, and
what to look for. I wanted to be a physician, but after he died,
the will was gone. My mother had fallen to pieces, and my grades
weren't all that good after that.
I went to dancing school during my school years, and my
dancing teacher said I should become a choreographer. I loved
choreography because it was something very vital and very
creative. I studied, after graduating, at the famous Laban School
of Dance and Music in Essen, now part of the University of Essen.
Dorfman: Essen?
H. Fromm: Essen, a medium-sized city close to Cologne, which is now the
University of Essen. It was the Folkwang Institute at that time.
My teacher was a very famous man who later on moved to London.
His name was Kurt Joos. I studied there for two years and got my
degree. He created some very famous dances, which are still
danced now.
Dorfman: What might they be?
H. Fromm: One was "The Green Table," which — I helped to create. And "The
Waltz." They are still in the repetoire of some companies like
the Jeffrey Ballet and when they come here, I'll go and I get
nostalgic.
Dorfman: Of course, you must.
119
XV LEAVING GERMANY FOR ENGLAND AND PARIS, 1932
•
H. Fromm: After getting my degree, I went to England.
Dorfman: About what year?
H. Fromm: In '32, to study English. When Hitler came, my relatives in
London said, "Why don't you stay here, it'll blow over soon." I
stayed on. and studied English. Then, I had to go back to Germany
and pick up my degree in person in Essen. Faculty and M. Laban
said I should go to Paris together with another girl and open a
dancing school sponsored by them, which was the craziest and most
naive suggestion.
Life and Work in Paris
H. Fromm: We were eighteen years old; we didn't speak but school French;
we had no money and did not know anyone. [laughs] Two eighteen
year old girls going to Paris. I mean, it was lots of fun, but of
course we couldn't open a school. We lived in an awfully run-down
hotel, as all my friends did, and thought it was very romantic.
Only when our mothers came, they saw how we lived, they all cried,
[chuckles]
The view was of another wall, and I remember the window was
patched with flypaper. Coming from a well-to-do home, where we
had two maids, my mother and I — one for her, one for me — who
carried my skis to the train at 5 a.m. when I went skiing with my
friends — our life in Paris was quite a switch.
But I thought it was just wonderful, because we all had a
feeling, "We don't have to live this way forever." Something will
come up and we didn't want to go back to Germany, and I would have
settled in England instead. We always had that hope, and when
you're young, joint misery does not affect you all that much.
-
120
H. Fromm : We had a mentor, an older man, a friend of the family who was
forty years old, who lent us money, or bought us food, and
listened to our problems. There was a whole group from Nuremberg,
where I was born. This friend knew a man who was a very good
dress designer, who looked for a model. I was very thin, very
tall for that time. So I went there; I had never seen a model in
my life.
The designer was a short man originally from Poland, Jewish.
He put on a black velvet coat with a huge white fur, and it was so
long that it was like a train, and he walked around in this. I
practically cracked up with laughter.
Dorfman: Hand upon his hips?
H. Fromm: Yes, to show me how to model. Which I did for a week only,
because models were often harassed by male buyers. My boss said,
"This is not a job for a Jewish girl. I want to groom you as my
directrise." That means the head of his establishment.
But for that I had to learn how to sew in a sweatshop with
one bulb. The room was about as big as this, [gestures to
indicate a small area] and there were six of us there, sewing and
cutting and ironing. The ironing was dreadful. The iron was put
on a stove until it was red hot. Then you took a long rod with a
hook at the end and put the iron in cold water which was in a tub
on the floor. You had to be careful not to burn your hand, from
the steam, which they warned me about, but I didn't understand
it. My French was not good enough.. .the first thing I did was to
burn my hand very badly.
I didn't like it there, but I learned a lot. I stayed there
for nine months until I was undernourished and sick, because our
group of friends spent little money on food. We walked around in
the evenings with a bag of food and a baguette, and ate in each
other's rooms. Not much to eat.
When some of our relatives came to Paris to invite us for
dinner, most of us got sick. You know, we weren't used to eating
good food anymore. When I became seriously undernourished — I
wasn't too fat in the first place — my mother then sent me to
England.
My father's three brothers and sister moved to England when
they were very young. It's a long story, how my grandfather
started a gold leaf business in London. And so I had a lot of
English relatives, and cousins.
Dorfman: So that you did have an established family.
121
H. Fromm: Yes. I did, a big family. I left the atelier in Paris because the
man wanted to marry me, and didn't leave me alone. Besides, I was
vastly underpaid because I didn't have a work permit. And we
couldn't get money from Germany anymore. So we had to live on
what we made. My name then was Renee because it sounded better to
my boss.
Dorfman: A difficult time financially.
H. Fromm: It was very difficult, but somehow, looking back, I don't remember
it as a bad time. I remember it as a good, interesting time. The
bad memories seem to disappear. In London, I learned dressmaking
as a profession, which I disliked, but I had to learn from scratch
again and got a degree in dressmaking and designing from Madame
Katinka.
A Frightening Episode in Germany, 1933
Dorfman: [interruption in tape] You were going to tell me a story of how
you had been rescued in Germany.
H. Fromm: Since I left in '32, I had to go back to Germany in 1933 to get my
financial affairs in order. I inherited some money, and only
could take five percent out of the country, which was very little.
The Nazis did not permit Jews to take more than that out of
Germany. And then I had to pick up my degree, in Essen. I then
went to Frankfurt for two days to visit my relatives, and got
caught in a rally, where Hitler spoke.
Dorfman: Horrible.
H. Fromm: I must have looked very frightened, and a man came to me, with the
swastika armband, and I thought, "He's going to arrest me." He
said to me, whispering, "I think you don't belong here. May I
take you to wherever you want to go in my car?" And I did leave
with him, I thought I had no choice. He asked, "Where do you
live," and I gave him the name of a street corner near my
relatives, but not the correct address.
He was a reporter, and he said to me, "I will give you one
piece of advice. Leave Germany as quickly as possible, I will
leave too. I'm not Jewish, but I can't stand this." I know he
rescued me. He wrote me many letters afterwards, and he did leave
Germany after a while.
Dorfman: Chilling story.
>
122
H. Fromm: It was. The two days, three days, that I was back in Germany, I
could easily have been arrested there. I got so frightened when I
heard Hitler talk, and it must have shown in my face, and this man
came and led me away.
Dorfman: You did hear Hitler talking?
H. Fromm: Oh, yes, well, I heard him in Nuremberg, before. That's where it
all started — it was an unforgettable experience to hear his
hysterical voice and the people wildly responding. But this
experience in Frankfurt was touch and go, because at that time
already Jewish people were arrested off the street and put in a
concentration camp. Picked up, just as he picked up me, while my
rescuer had all the insignia, and the Nazi uniform — and he was not
a Nazi — he just had to pretend because he was a reporter.
Dorfman: Which country did he go to?
H. Fromm: I think to England, but by that time I had left. He told me,
'*There will be a war, they're re-arming, and I urge you to leave
as quickly as possibly." I left for England the next day. But I
couldn't convince anybody else, in those days, to do the same.
Dorfman: And they remained, then.
H. Fromm: They remained until they had to flee, without anything, with
nothing.
Engagement to Alfred Fromm
Dorfman: How did you meet Mr. Fromm? You said you became engaged....
H. Fromm: I met him because my aunt who was a widow with two children, and
his father who was a widower with five children, got married when
I was twelve years old. So, I knew him all my life, more or less.
Dorfman: This was while you were still in Germany.
H. Fromm: When I met him. Oh, yes, yes. I was only eleven years old and he
was twenty. And then he came over to London in 1932 and proposed.
He proposed when I was eighteen the first time, but I didn't want
to know about it. It just frightened me — to get married. I was
too young and immature.
I had the most romantic proposal the second time. We were in
a rowboat on the River Thames in our bathing suits. My fiance
said, "If you marry me, I must tell you we must move to America.
We will be very poor in the beginning, we might have to live in
123
H. Fromm: the basement of an apartment house, and I may have at the start to
sell newspapers." And after he said this, he dove into the water,
and swam to shore, very fast.
I thought, "My God, what am I going to do, he's sorry." Then
he swam leisurely back, and said, sheepishly, "I'm awfully sorry,
but I took a laxative last night, and in the excitement, it just
took effect." [chuckling]
Life and Work in Palestine. 1935
H. Fromm: My mother had emigrated to Palestine, to Jerusalem. I went there
in 1935 to say goodbye to her. I was supposed to stay for four
weeks, and get married in Jerusalem, but my fiance couldn't leave
Germany.
There were lots of things wrong. His father was in a
concentration camp for a few weeks, but he got out because they
were important exporters of wine, and the Germans needed the money
from foreign trade. I had to stay in Jerusalem for nine months
and worked. A friend of mine bought a department store, and he
needed a cashier. I told him, "I can't add," and he said, "But
you don't steal." So, I said, "I'll work until my fiance comes,"
which took nine months instead of two weeks. My job was catastro
phic, because I really can't add, you know; however, I learned.
Then I became chief cashier after several months with six
cashiers working for me.
To me, it was a huge department store. I went back a few
years ago, and it was actually a tiny little place. It was an
interesting job. I spoke at that time, both Hebrew and Arabic,
enough to get by.
Dorfman: Where did you learn Hebrew?
H. Fromm: I had to learn it as a child, the classic Hebrew. But then I took
lessons in Hebrew and Arabic — Hebrew in Germany but Arabic in
England.
Dorfman: But you did leam Hebrew at home?
H. Fromm: I did learn the classic Hebrew, in my private lessons in Germany.
The Hebrew didn't do me much good in Palestine, because at that
time only children learned and spoke Hebrew as I did. Old people
spoke their native language, whatever that was. I asked an old
man once, in my best Hebrew, what time it was, or where to go, and
he said. "Why do you speak this language to me? I'm not a child."
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124
Marriage in Trieste. Prague, and New York
H. Fromm : Then after waiting for nine months for my fiance, we couldn't get
married as planned in Jerusalem. The English and the Arabs and
the Jews were shooting at each other. I went to Trieste with my
mother, and we were married there. We also got married in Prague
a second time, and got married the third time in New York, because
the first two weddings were only Jewish weddings, religious
weddings; they weren't valid in New York and weren't recognized.
One had to have a civil ceremony, a religious one was not
mandatory.
Dorfman: That's what Mr. Fromm told me.
Why did that take place?
What about the wedding in Prague?
H. Fromm: Because my uncle, who was a professor there (he, and his wife, and
my cousin died in a concentration camp later) — said the first
ceremony in Trieste wasn't good enough, and he would give a big
wedding, a big Orthodox wedding. We were married already six
months, and we had to come in separate taxis to my uncle's house,
because we weren't supposed to have seen each other before.
I got my aunt's wedding veil, and there was a chuppa, and a
rabbi who talked for ever and ever and ever, and had halitosis.
He put his hand in his pocket, took out a handkerchief and said to
my husband, "Touch this handkerchief," which was sticking out of
his pocket and enormously dirty. My husband did so reluctantly,
but it was meant for good luck. After the ceremony was over, they
led us to the bedroom for twenty minutes, left us alone, I guess
to get acquainted. So that was the second wedding.
There was a big wedding feast, with all people unknown to us,
who mostly spoke Cfeech.
After we arrived in New York, we found out that this second
wedding wasn't legal either, and we went to New York City Hall and
got married again. It's a pretty depressing thing to do in city
hall. After standing in line, the clerk said in a bored voice,
"Two dollars please. Swear it's true, and good luck." It was a
good thing that we were married before. I had a checkered youth.
Dorfman: You certainly did!
H. Fromm: The interesting thing is that when we asked my daughter, in her
rebellious years, "What would you like to do? What profession
would you like to follow? Which college would you like to
attend?" She said to me, "You were lucky, you didn't have a
choice." I said, "You're right, but I would rather not have
experienced that, because it wasn't easy. We just made the best
of it."
125
H. Fromm: If one has too many choices and does not have a special skill or
interest — young people become insecure. I mean, both have
problems, but the non-choice, in a way, is easier, if you can
survive it. Many of them didn't survive in Paris.
Dorfman: The agony of decision making.
H. Fromm: Unless you have a special gift for science or know what you want
to do, really, it is difficult.
Dorfman: But you say that many people in Paris did not survive.
H. Fromm: No. Survive, I mean, they survived physically, but many were
emotionally damaged. Yes, emotionally scarred. Altogether, it
was a pretty grim time. Some of my friends went insane, and had
to stay in the charity mental hospital. We visited them and there
were fifty beds in a row, full of young people. It was a grim
experience for a young girl, but still, we survived this, too.
Dorfman: Was it the dislocation?
H. Fromm: Yes. I didn't feel this as much because I lived in England
before, and my family had managed to leave Germany, all but this
one uncle and his family in Prague. So the rest of the family was
spared those losses.
I had a very intimate relationship with my mother until her
last breath. She was a wonderful woman and a wonderful
grandmother and our children loved her dearly. My husband loved
her and she was always an important part of our family. Mother
had very good friends who admired her for her warmth, her kindness
and her intelligence. She enjoyed greatly the success of our
family and counseled many when they came to her for sound advice.
She lived with us for a time, and all of us still miss her.
•«
126
XVI ESSENTIAL VOLUNTEER WORK IN THE UNITED STATES. 1939-1945
Resettling, Relatives Who Fled Germany
Dorfman: Who helped Jewish people who fled from Germany and came here?
H. Fromm: I guess organizations, and relatives, friends. Ourselves, we gave
thirty-four affidavits, which means that you're responsible for
the person, for, five years, until they become citizens. I
remember when I was pregnant with my son in 1939, all I did was go
to the ships in New York and call for relatives, and get them
settled, find them housing, and explain the American way of life.
The first thing I did was take them to Woolworth's to get
them a banana split ice cream. [laughter] You know, there was
ice cream, and bananas, cherries, whipped cream, for fifteen
cents. And they were so impressed.
Dorfman: You felt that this was typically American.
H. Fromm: That was typically American then, for me.
Dorfman: Yes.
H. Fromm: People said, "Why didn't you work," well, there was no chance.
Every few weeks another relative came and had to be settled. They
had children, and you had to see that they go to school, and —
Dorfman: Who funded those people, initially, for apartments, and —
H. Fromm: We did. We led a strange life. We lived in New York when we
arrived, in a two room crummy furnished apartment, right off
Lexington Avenue, with the El [elevated train] rattling the
apartment, with southern exposure, and the sun beating down.
Every month, we had to take customers out for elegant dinners,
because my husband had to show that he had spent his expense
funds. He sold German wines in those days and he had an expense
account.
127
H. Fromm: We took my husband's customers to the Waldorf, which was the
fanciest place to go to. We asked ten or twelve people, went
dancing. I had wonderful clothes from Paris, I was better dressed
than now, and afterwards we went back, like Cinderella, to our
terrible little apartment. People always said, "Why don't you
invite us to your home?" I didn't want to say, "We don't have a
'home,' really." They thought we were very rich young people.
We had little money, but were officially wealthy in a strange
way, because I had, in my name, $80,000 in the bank which,
however, wasn't ours. You know, people sent us, ten dollars,
$100, $300, $500, $1000 to keep for them until they could come to
the U.S. • There were probably fifty or sixty accounts.
Dorfman: People from —
H. Fromm: From Germany — to keep for them, monies they managed to smuggle
out. So we had ledgers, and books, and books of accounts. But it
was $80,000, and when I went to the bank at the age of twenty-two,
the bank manager, his name was Mr. Ghost, practically bowed down
to the floor to cater to this rich young woman.
Dorfman: So confusing —
H. Fromm: It was, it was, but it was very strange, you know. Same thing as
when we emigrated to the United States. We came on the German
luxury liner. The trip was paid for in Germany, first class, we
even had a suite. We had five hundred German marks board money
for a five day trip. Which we tried to spend desperately, because
we couldn't bring it to New York. We could take ten dollars with
us. We called New York every day in order to spend the money,
because unspent money went back to the German government.
We had champagne for lunch, which we didn't like. We bought
things, like twelve silver lemon squeezers, when I couldn't even
cook for one person. I mean, it was a crazy life. We could j ust
pay the taxi. And I had my little inheritance.
Dorfman: Which you were able to take out with you.
H. Fromm: Yes, five percent of it, which didn't amount to very much, but it
was enough to make us feel a little secure. And so our life went
always from one extreme to another. Incredible.
Dorfman: An emotional yo-yo.
H. Fromm: Yes, but you get used to it. If you have a sense of humor, if you
don't take yourself too seriously. I remember we thought we were
very wealthy, we lived on fifteen dollars a week household money.
Friends of mine had ten dollars a week.
128
Dorfman: The f if teen was-
H. Fromm: Enough.
Red Cross Driver and Instructor, World War II
Dorfman: Now. you also were a Red Cross driver.
H. Fromm: That was here in San Francisco, and a first aid instructor.
Dorfman: And when was that in San Francisco?
H. Fromm: Beginning of World War II. In 1942 I worked at the Red Cross, I
took first aid instruction, then I became an instructor.
Dorfman: What were your duties as a Red Cross driver?
H. Fromm: To drive anybody who was assigned to us. Mainly pregnant women
who were in labor, and either made it or didn't quite make it to
the hospital. I delivered two babies. We had a course in
obstetrics, because very often women, war brides, called us too
late, to take them to the hospital. But we drove anybody.
Dorfman: You certainly had varied experiences.
H. Fromm: [laughs] I did. We drove people to the ships, when they had to
go overseas, we had to take soldiers sightseeing, so they didn't
go astray before being shipped out. These big buses up and down
the hills. For them, it was a great experience that a lady would
drive a bus.
Dorfman: You were driving buses as well, then, not just a station wagon.
H. Fromm: Double clutch buses, trucks, ambulances, anything.
Dorfman: Where did you learn to drive those vehicles?
H. Fromm: We had instructions. When I went there to introduce myself, they
said, "Would you drive a truck to Mare Island, and get an anchor?
It's an emergency." I had a suit on, and a little hat that looked
like a pie shape, and a veil. And I had to drive a truck with
double shift, which I had never done before, and I couldn't shift
from first into second gear, so I drove in first gear to Mare
Island, and arriving totally exhausted — the hat was by that time
over one ear; disheveled and everybody laughed. I looked like a
Helen Hokinson cartoon, if you remember — "A lady, working for the
Red Cross." It was really hilarious.
129
H. Fromm: And I drove back in first gear, because I didn't know how to shift
this thing without ruining the whole car. I had very varied
experiences, I must say.
Dorfman: Much of that must have prepared you for the Fromm Institute for
Lifelong Learning.
130
XVII FROMM INSTITUTE FOR LIFELONG LEARNING; DESIGN AND DEVELOPMENT
H. Frotnm: Well, nothing prepared me for that. It took two years of
preparation. The idea came to me when I was sick, with a bad
stomach ulcer. I talked to a lot of people on the phone, and I
found out how many retired people are bored and lonely and feel
completely useless.
I started asking people, "Would you be interested in going to
a university and being taught by retired professors," because the
professors become just as lonely. Some people said, "Yes," some
people said, "No." Some professors said, "Don't be stupid, who
wants to teach after they are retired?" But most came back to
us sometime after they were retired and asked to teach again.
Then my husband and I prepared for two years on how to go
about it. I had a very good director, Millie Mishkin, who really
was the driving force at the time. I mean, I didn't know much
about universities or teaching.
Dorfman: What was her role?
H. Fromm: She was the program director, she was the doer, she was —
Dorfman: What had she done before?
H. Fromm: She had worked in adult education. Before, at the Steelworker's
Union in Pittsburgh, and did many other things.
Dorfman: And how did the two of you —
H. Fromm: A friend of ours introduced us, and said, "She has just arrived
here, and is married to Professor Mishkin, he teaches at the law
school in Berkeley, and she would be the right person for you to
start such a project." So we did plan. One day, our board of
directors said, after two years, "You can plan for years, but
there must be a time that you simply start and see how it goes.
You might get no one, you might get thirty-five people." We had
131
H. Fremm: an academic search committee; President Romberg of San Francisco
State University, and a professor from the University of San
Francisco found us six retired professors.
We told them all, "You might not have any students. This is
an experiment," There was one article in the paper about the
start of this institute, and then six hundred people came, and
wanted to enroll. There was a long line of older people. It was
really scary.
Dorfman: Frightening.
H. Fromm: It was. And they pushed and they shoved, it was just incredible.
We ceuld accommodate seventy-six people. All the others were put
on the waiting list. It was first come, first serve, and when
they found out where to enroll, they really pushed so hard that
some people became disgusted and simply left. And the women were
more aggressive than the men.
Dorfman: Why do you suppose that?
H. Fromm: I don't know. It was astounding. One man came to us after we had
enrolled as many as we ceuld, a few days later, and said he saw
the article in the paper, and we must take him. We said, "We
can't, we're full." He started to cry, and he said, "I worked all
my life, and I have five children, they all go to college. It's
time that I get educated so that I can talk to them." We enrolled
him. The desperation of people was something frightening.
Dorfman: Something meaningful.
H. Fromm: Something meaningful, something to do, to find friends, to find
people who are in the same situation as they are. Which is one of
the side benefits of the institute.
We have now a student association with three hundred
students. Twenty of our students went to Europe on a trip. They
went to Spain, to Italy, and to Morocco. They flew home from
Rome, via New York, arrived here at three in the morning, the next
morning they were back in class. One of them is eighty-four years
old, and I said, "Don't you have j et lag?" She said, "Yes, but I
can't miss any more classes."
Dorfman: What dedication.
H. Fromm: Unbelievable.
Derfman: You must be offering something.
H. Fremm: We must. As I said, the time was right. We got irto this project
not expecting anything, and it just took off.
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132
fi
Dorfman: You were telling me last time we met about a man who came to you
and told you that he had attempted to do the same sort of thing
that you had —
H. Fromm: Five years before, at the same place,
was interested.
Dorfman: Why do you think —
At USF. and he said no one
H. Fromm: I don't know. Maybe the timing wasn't right, maybe he did
something that wasn't —
Dorfman: What was this man?
H. Fromm: I don't know. I have no idea. I think aging came into its own
within a short time. Attention was being paid to older people and
retired people, also within a short time. Maybe our timing was
right, or maybe our preparation was better; I don't know. With
all the people who were around me that day, I couldn't talk to
him. And I think that a strong sense of commitment to the project
helped substantially.
Dorfman: Were there any models that you had for the Fromm Institute for
Lifelong Learning in — people, or other institutions?
H. Fromm: The only one was Hastings College of the Law in San Francisco.
Since my cousin. Peter K. Maier, professor of law, teaches at
Hastings, I met quite a few professors there. That was the only
model, really. But they have such fabulous retired law
professors, that I thought, "Why can't we get some fabulous
retired professors in other disciplines?"
Dorfman: And you did.
H. Fromm: And we did indeed. But I think my ignorance was a blessing. I
was totally ignorant of rules and procedures. I simply wrote to
professors I had met, or who were recommended to me. I wrote them
letters to ask if they wanted to teach for us. That we do this and
that, and would they be interested. Some were, some were not.
Dorfman: By and large —
H. Fromm: But by and large, as it is usually, the more famous or well known
the person was, the nicer they were. Those not well known didn't
even bother to write back. The others wrote back, or said, "I
know another person who would possibly teach for you." So it
progressed by word of mouth.
College for
only the
over
Bv Caroline
"TI7E HAT- A FHIEND who retired First, he
* * went around the vn>rlti. Then he took up golf.
Then he simply got bored and died. "
Starkly limned, that is when the idea resulting in
the Fromm Institute for Lifelong Learning began to
take shape more than two years ago. or as it is
described by Hanna Fromm. cool and gracefuJ and
exquisitely groomed as always, relaxed on her
cinnamon velvet sofa.
Alfred Fromm adds another case history of
another friend, the retired president of a bank. "One
day he was in the prime of life, ready to enjoy
himself outside the working world he'd known for 40
yean. The next time I saw him, he told me he has
little to do and few people with whom he can
exchange thoughts."
Hanna again: "I asked my husband, 'What would
yon do if you had to retire?' and he said 1 think I'd
like to go back to school. But not with my
grandchildren.' Not that his grandchildren are that
old yet Then I started asking the same question at
cocktail parties and many people gave the same
answer. A professor said he would rather teach older
people."
For the next two years, the president of national
wine distributors Fromm it Sichel and his wife —
whose last project was the establishment of the Wine
Museum near Fisherman's Wharf — researched the
subject of adult education in the Bay Area, talking
with older adults, gerontologists, government offi
cials in Washington and other experts on aging.
"It son of came to me," says Hanna in
retrospect, 'that this was something well worth
doing."
Finally, they brought together nearly a dozen
private funding sources, including their own.
This month the Fromms' idea iwomes a reality.
Registration in the Fromm Institute for Lifelong
Learning at the University of San Francisco begins
Feb. 16 with an open house: classes commence there
on Feb. 23.
Limited to retired people over 50, the Institute
offers courses covering serious disciplines which are
taught during the day. Instructors, like students,
have completed careers and are now in search of
meaningful retirement through education. It is a
"university within a university" on the USF campus,
offering an atmosphere of peers in a traditional
setting, with the privileges that go with it, but with
its own board of directors.
132a
•
Mildred MishJnn is planning director. A $100 annual
tuition entitles students to take any or all of the 8-
week course offerings, three times a year.
Among instructors are Stanford's Dr. George
Sensabaugh: Dr. Robert D. Clark, former president
of Oregon State College: and Dr. Robert Thornton,
who studied with Albert Einstein while teaching at
Brandeis.
Dark-haired Hanna Fromm. student of music,
choreography, and art in her native Germany and of
design in London and Paris, but never involved in a
career other than marriage, believes compulsory
retirement is "wrong," and as for the prospect of old
age, "I hate it." Lake everyone else. "But I'd rather
be active than feeling sorry for myself." Among her
volunteer activities, she is a director of the National
Council on the Aging in Washington, D.C.
The Fromms. who first met when Hanna was 12
and her widowed aunt married .Alfred's widowed
father, came here in 1936. They settled in San
Francisco because Alfred saw the future of the wine
industry in the Napa region.
"We were married three times in three different
countries." Hanna tells you. "Actually, we were
supposed to be married in Jerusalem, where my
mother was living. I went to stay with her a few
weeks and then the Nazis wouldn't let .Alfred leave
Germany for 9 months." So for 9 months. Hanna
worked as a cashier in a department store, speaking
both Hebrew and .Arabic.
By the time the couple was reunited, "there
were riots in Palestine, shooting between the British
and the Arabs and the Jews. We got married in
Trieste instead. I had an uncle in Prague who
thought that was not a real wedding. After a year
and a half we had a very orthodox wedding in
Prague. And when we arrived in the United States.
we were told both weddings were not legal. So we
were married again in city halL We are well
married." And Hanna smiles.
Certainly they are a good team. Educators,
sociologists, and gerontologists are watching the
pilot program at USF as the start of a trend toward
full sen-ice education for the elderly.
"If it works as planned." say the Fromms.
"many colleges and universities will probably
implement similar programs.
"In this country we do so much for our young
people, and very often they don't appreciate it. We
offer the elderly arts and crafts, but nothing
intellectually stimulating. We have a great natural
resource in our old people."
San Francisco Sunday Examiner_ and Chronic]
February 8, 1976
Edith Fried is resident director of the Institute.
>
133
H. Fromm: One professor whom I contacted was an economist, a very well known
economist, who wrote back. "Your project is very interesting, but
I will not teach economics any more, because economics cannot be
taught. What you need is a referee. You get ten economists and
ten opinions. Nobody can teach economics nowadays."
Dorfman: Interesting.
H. Fromm: Well, in a way. it was a bitter letter. But it was interesting.
We got our professors together, and then from then en it just took
off, and it was a lot of work.
Dorfman: I understand.
H. Fromm: After Mrs. Mishkin retired in 1982, we asked a retired professor
to become the academic program director. By that time we also
needed a professional person.
Dorfman: And who replaced Mrs. Mishkin?
H. Fromm: Professor John Dennis, who took early retirement from the San
Francisco State University. He's very good. The institute
blossomed. I wouldn't say prospered, because we always have to
look for funds. And the more students we have, the more expenses
increase.
Limitations
H. Fromm: We can't take any more students, for two reasons. One is because
we don't have the money, and the university doesn't have the
space.
Fund Raising
Dorfman: You previously mentioned that there was always a problem in terms
of money, of fundraising. You also mentioned Mr. Fromm's unusual
effectiveness.
H. Fromm: Yes.
Dorfman: What is his secret?
H. Fromm: He's a born salesman. He is committed and is convinced of his
"product. "
134
H. Fromm: I'm the opposite. I can't raise funds. I freeze up, I dry up,
I'm embarrassed, and that's not a good way te do it. I only got
money once, from a man who said to me, "What are you doing this
damn feel thing for?" He was a very well known, very wealthy man,
and I said te him — I was very angry — "You live in an ivory tower.
You have your own plane, you have your house with a swimming pool,
lots of servants, limousines, and you're sixty-seven years old,
and you're still working. Have you ever followed up on people who
retire? What becomes of them, what happens to them?"
He said, 'Vrite it down for me." So I wrote him a letter,
and I said, "I'm not asking for money, I just want to tell you
what we're doing and why" He sent a very terse letter back, and
said, "I'll give you $5000."
Derfman: So you feel that Mr. Fromm' s belief in what —
H. Fromm: He firmly believes in what he is doing, and he can convey this
feeling.
Dorfman: That's a talent.
H. Fromm: It is a talent. It is something I can't do, which is very bad.
We ourselves give a very substantial amount for the expenses of
the institute.
Dorfman: In addition, you bring other very needed skills.
Skilled Listening
H. Fromm: I listen. We have students who come and say, "Oh, I see you're
busy. I just want to talk to you," and then they tell me about
their illnesses from age six months on. I figure out, "Now she's
at the age of fifty, now it's maybe twenty-two years to go."
[laughs] Sometimes they go back to the year '40. This woman
talked to me for one hour. I had to write a letter, and I got a
bit impatient. She said in the end, "I'm awfully sorry I took so
much of your time, but you see, I live alone, and I have nobody to
talk te, " and then I felt terrible.
Or a woman writes te me and sends me fifty pages of what
happened to her in Vienna, how she was raped, and what a terrible
fate she had because she was half Jewish, and her Jewish relatives
ostracized her for being non-Jewish. The others didn't pay
attention te her because they thought she was Jewish. She had to
move from place to place, and she has no money, and no friends.
She's a very good writer, and she wrote a book.
>
135
H. Fromm: So I called her doctor, and I said, "I got permission to call you,
I don't want to know what she has. But hew can I help her?" He
said, "Find her an apartment, preferably with Jewish people, have
her book published, and see to it that she gets a word processor."
I said. "We're not social workers, that's not our role. I'll try
to help her," and I called various organizations. So these are
the by-products.
Dorfman: Good listening is very powerful, isn't it?
H. Fromm: It is. It's very exhausting, too. Your heart breaks; you hear so
many horrible stories.
More About Funding
Dorfman: Can you tell me who besides you and Mr. Fromm helped to fund the
institute?
H. Fromm: We went to foundations. It was not hard to get seed money. The
San Francisco Foundation gives you some seed money, but then they
don't go on with it. You always have to find either new
foundations, or new organizations, new corporations, er new
individuals.
Dorfman: Were there individuals who —
H. Fromm: We started the Friends of the Fromm Institute. Some money came
in, in twenty dollars, fifty dollars, $1000, but it is an enormous
amount of work. We always had to have these fundraising dinners,
which are a pain. You try not to bore people with lots of
speeches. Finally we had an idea which is much copied now; to
show contributors a video of what we are doing. Then we had
students who spoke, and told what they get out of joining the
institute. After that, we had professors who spoke, who told what
they get out of teaching after retirement. Then we ran out of
ideas, and I said, "Let's try a new thing, and not have a
fundraising dinner."
So we sent out very attractive folders, telling people what
we are doing, and asking would they help us. We actually got more
money by not having a fundraising affair, because I think people .
have go to too many. And also, the cost of having a fundraising
dinner is enormous.
Dorfman: It must be.
H. Fromm: So it's less work and less staffing. And we raised the same
amount of money by a concentrated effort.
136
Dorfman: That1 s wonderful.
H. Fremm: But new this has been copied, too. I received a fundraising
brochure the ether day for a non-Ball.
Honorary Doctor of Public Service. University of San Francisco.
May 1979
Dorfman: You were recognized for your work with the Fromm Institute by the
University ef San Francisco. Tell me in what way.
H. Fromm: I was awarded an Honorary Doctorate of Public Service in May 1979.
My husband received the same degree.
The Future
Dorfman: What do you see in the future for the Fromm Institute?
H. Fromm: There is such a tremendous need for an organization like ours, and
I believe it will continue for a long time. We're trying now to
plan for the next ten years.
Derfman: And what are your plans for the next ten years?
H. Fromm: The main thing is funding, and making plans what we want the
university to do and what they want us to do. And to find a
person who will oversee this. We might not be alive in ten years,
or probably not able to do it, I don't know. We are trying to get
together with lawyers and the university.
Dorfman: Are there major issues for planning for the future?
H. Fromm: We would like it to go on that way. And who will take care of the
money? We send the money to the university to pay our expenses.
We invest the money, not they. Whatever the cash expenses, they
are paid by us to the university who then disburses it.
Derfman: So that the planning involves financial planning for the future —
H. Fromm: It's both. It's financial planning, it's academic planning, it's
that people who will run the institute stick to our creed to only
ask retired professors to teach. Because if you start with young
professors, you are just inundated. We had an ad in the Journal
ef Higher Education when we started. We wrote that we are looking
for retired professors; we got so many letters from young
PROGRAMS GROW
Elderly Find
a New life
on Campus
BY WILLIAM ENDICOTT
TlltMt SUH Wrttw
SAN FRANCISCO-Hannah
Fromm watched a neighbor, "a once-
powerful man, a banker." disinte
grate.
"He retired and didn't know what
to do with himself." she said. "I'd see
him out walking his little dog or put
tering in his yard. And then one day
he died.
"I was convinced it was because he
was totally bored."
So she and her husband. Alfred, a
vuicaltunst, began asking friends
what they would do when they re
tired and the answer they received
most often was that the older people
they knew would like to return to
school "but not with their grand-
c.iildren."
And they wanted to learn some
thing besides how to make table mats
out of Popsicle sticks.
What their friends and others like
them needed, the Fromms decided,
was a setting where older people
could enjoy a campus atmosphere but
with classmates in their own age
group and where they could take so
lid academic courses for pleasure, not
for credit.
The result was the founding three
years ago of the Fromm Institute for
Lifelong Learning at the University
of San Francisco, typical of a growing
number of programs in higher educa
tion being developed at colleges and
universities across the country exclu
sively for senior citizens.
Case Western Reserve University
in Cleveland, for example, has the In
stitute for Retirement Studies where
men and women ages 50 and older
can enroll in free, noncredit courses;
Ohio State University and other
schools offer a "Program 60" to allow
persons 60 and older to take classes at
no charge.
Fordhara University m New York
has a "College at 60"' and Pace Uni
versity in New York offers, for j
smai! fee. a one -year membership in
:'S "Active Retirement Center" ana
enrollment in spenal davf.me
rours-es. The New bchooi for Social
Researrh in New York has a swi.mi
'institute for retirea professionals. "
136a
Mure than 230 colleges and univer •
<ities :n 3S states participate in the
National Elderhostel program, whicn
enes the elderly a chance to live anl
learn on campuses during vacation
pencds when other students are
away.
"Lots of people enjoy 'earning a;:<i
want to learn." William Berkeley, the
National Elderhostel president, said,
"and it isn't just something that goes
on for people under 21 or 22 years of
age."
Indeed, the thrust of all the pro
grams for older persons is that one is
never too old to learn.
"We thought we'd be lucky to get
50 students when we first started,"
Hannah Fromm said, "and had
planned for 35. We had 600 show up
to register. It was pandemonium.
"The most we could accommodate
was 76 and we had filled all the spots
when one 60-year-old man came up
to me with tears in his eyes. He said
his wife was still working, his five
kids were gone from home and he
didn't know what to do with himself.
We took him."
Although the University of San
F'anciscc. a Jesuit scnooi. provides office ar.d
ciassroerr space, the institute depends aimcst
«nrirfci« or. pnvat* foundations and corporate
donations for its $121.000 annual budget S'.u-
•ier.ti. if they can afford it, pay $150 tuition for
'.nree eignt-week terms and some make volun
tary contributions above that amount
"'Money is our biggest problem," Mrs. Fromm
said
The University of San Francisco was chosen
as the site for the institute, program director
Mildred Mishkin said, because "they are small
ar.d have Jesuitical patience— and they wanted
us."
Currently, 160 persons from ages 50 to 91 are
enrolled in courses ranging from Greek mythol
ogy and genetics to foreign affairs and Califor
nia history. All are taught by retired university
professors living in the Bay Area who, like their
students, have often found retirement difficult
Among the faculty members are Charles Eas-
ton RothweU. a former president of Mills Col
lege in Oakland and executive secretary of the
United Nations Charter Conference here in
1945; Thomas Blaisdell. professor emeritus of
political science at the University of California
and a former official in the administrations of
Franklin D. Roosevelt and Harry S Truman,
and Ernest Mundt, professor emeritus of art at
San Francisco State University.
"There is homogeneity of wisdom in the
group," Robert Thornton. 81. a physics profes
sor who once studied under Albert Einstein,
told a reporter shortly after the institute opened
in 1976. He added that he could teach more to
the older students in a shorter period than he
ever had been able to do with their younger
counterparts.
To be sure, a study conducted at the Puget
Sound Health Cooperative in Seattle found that
a person's abilities do not necessarily decrease
with time and, in fact verbal-comprehension
skills frequently increase as one grows older.
There is no reason, the study concluded that
older people cannot acquire new knowledge and
Some of the Fromm students have college
degrees earned years ago-, others have never
been inside a college classroom. But they repre
sent a cross-section of older adults in the Bay
Area. A few have gone on to enroll in regular
university courses in pursuit of a degree.
"I was so busy earning a living my whole life.
I didn't have time for such things," the insti
tute's student body president, 83-year-old Gir-
vin Wait, said "I think this is stupendous. And
being around all the young people on campus
just fascinates me tremendously."
Wait is a master mariner by trade and retired
several years ago as a merchant captain after 50
years at sea with Matson and Pacific Far East
Lines. He is now taking courses on such sub
jects as philosophy, foreign affairs and science
and said he also "took a couple of astronomy
courses just to bring myself up to date."
His wife of 56 years, Constance/probably will
enroll in the institute next year, he said "She's
had such an active schedule, she's just been too
busy this year," he said
Margaret Sah. 65, a retired librarian, and her
husband Benn. 68, who retired three years ago
as an engineer with Bechtel Corp., are taking
music, political science and other subjects they
never had a chance to study when they were
preparing for their careers.
"I like the intellectual stimulus." she said
"This is more like a liberal arts college."
And James Schaefle. 73, has taken courses in
English literature, astronomy, physics and cos
mology, plus auditing regular university
courses in anthropology and philosophy.
"My wife died of cancer three years ago and I
was really in a low state of mind" he said "A
friend told me about the institute and I enrolled
I like it because it doesn't have the usual acade
mic tensions."
A marine engineer before he retired in 1965.
he also .discovered that he and Wait had once
served together on the same ship. "It was in
1932," he said "But our paths were quite sepa
rate then. He was the captain and I was a wiper,
the lowest rate in the engine room."
In addition to organizing their own "student
government" the Fromm students regularly
schedule brown-bag lunches featuring prom
inent speakers and field trips to such events as
the Shakespeare Festival in Ashland Ore.
"I feel like a schoolgirl again," Anne Davis.
66. a retired librarian, said. One of the institute's
first students, Fred Ramstedt said that at his
age "learning has more meaning than it has
purpose. My presence on this campus is simply
telling the world, 'If you love learning, you love
life.' "
Mrs. Fromm. who works without pay as the
institute's executive director, said she had done
nothing that would have prepared her for run
ning such a program and. despite a lifelong in
terest in muse, choreography and design, had
never had a career other than marriage. "I'm
the perfect example of teaching an old dog new
tncks." she said.
But she is a director of the National Council
on Aging in Washington and has strong opin
ions about the prospects of old age. "I hate it."
she once was quoted saying. "But I'd rather be
active than feeling sorry for myself."
Los Angeles Times, October 9,
1979
137
H. TV aim ; professors who said, "To all intents and purposes, I'm retired
because I lost my position. I didn't get tenure — " Once you start
with this, you don't have any way to check them out.
And our students are more comfortable with people their own
age. There are other places to go to for those who are not and
whs want te study with young people. They can also audit with
young people at the University of San Francisco. They can be
visitors, not auditors, because auditors pay, and visitors don't.
But, on the whole, there are not toe many who do this. They would
rather study with their own age group, they love being taught by
their own age group.
Because young professors also don't know how much older
people know. So they start, as if they were undergraduates, and
with information our students already know.
Dorfman: From experience.
H. Fromm: From experience. Yes, from life experience, from reading a lot.
They know the basics.
>
138
XVIII MUSIC IN THE VINEYARDS
Dorfman: I'd like to move on now to your work with Music in the Vineyards.
I believe that that came about because of the connection with your
brother-in-law, Norman.
H. Fromm: Not really. It began because the Fellows of the Behavioral
Sciences came to Saratoga, to meet each other there. It used to
be called the Ford Foundation, now it's the Behavioral Sciences.
Where professors go for a year of studies ef their choice.
Dorfman: Yes, at Stanford.
H. Fromm: Yes. They came to the Paul Masson winery twice a year, when they
joined the foundation, and when they left, because they had little
contact with each ether in that year, although they knew one
another. So it was very interesting for us, and seme ef the
fellows asked us if they could come up to the winery and play
music.
Dorfman: What year was this?
H. Fromm: I would say about twenty years, twenty-two years ago, or more.
We had this big terrace, and we had moonlight concerts and invited
a few friends. It was wonderful, you know. And then everybody
said, "Oh, we heard you had a concert, next time can we come,
too?" So we invited about a hundred people. The read was so
narrow that you could either drive up or you could drive down.
We had a hay wagon. We drove down to the parking space, and
had all the guests come up in a hay wagon.
Dorfman: Oh, how exciting.
H. Fromm: And it was great fun. So, it started. And then somebody said,
"You should do this professionally, it's so enjoyable."
Dorfman: And this was at Paul Masson Vineyard?
139
H. Fremm: Yes. We owned it at that time. I said, "It's a marvelous idea,
but I don't knew how to do it," So Norman, who was a great music
lover and organizer, and I started it together. Then other people
got involved. But that's how it started.
We had an acoustics expert to tell us where the best
acoustics are and what we can do to improve it.
Dorfman: Who was that?
H. Fromm: Somebody from Stanford. We had the music performed in front of
the church facade, which was actually the front of a wine cellar,
but it was an old church facade. It was shipped from Spain and
was brought to Saratoga stone by stone by Mr. Masson, and it is a
beautiful old Romanesque church facade. That is where the
concerts are. We also built bleachers to accommodate hundreds of
guests.
Dorfman: So it's something that developed over a period of time.
H. Fromm: Yes. of course, it takes years to do that. And we found out for
that if there is a wind, singers can't hear their own voices. We
had to adjust for that. We found out that if we have a piano, the
night before the concert it gets damp, or if there's a storm, that
we had to get a piano tuner on Sunday morning.
Dor f man: How did you manage that?
H. Fromm: Just somehow managed. There were a lot of us who worked at that.
Then we found out that people fainted, or people got hurt, so we
had first aid stations. Because we had, in the end, eight hundred
people. You learn by bitter experience at times. Later this
increased to one thousand with the creation of some new parking
space.
A woman fainted right in front of me, from the heat, and next
to me was a surgeon and his wife. I said, "Do somethingl", and
his wife said, "If he can't operate, he wouldn't know what to do."
He didn't move a finger, and she came to by herself.
Dorfman: Fortunately. [laughter]
H. Fromm: I think somebody threw water on her or something. And some had
heat prostration, and I bought a lot of salt tablets. Somebody
gave us twenty pounds of salt, which I still have.
Dorfman: And for how long did the concerts continue?
H. Fromm: They're still continuing, but we are not involved anymore.
Dorfman: How long were you involved?
140
H. Fromm: Maybe ten, twelve years. And then the winery changed management
and we stopped being involved.
Dorfman: The concerts continue under the auspices of the winery?
H. Fromm: Yes. As a matter of fact, they expanded it. They have jazz
concerts, and they have rock and roll music — they do much more
than we did; we just had classical music. I heard it's very
successful.
Dorfman: But you haven't —
H. Fromm: I can't bring myself to go up and see our house and not be
permitted to go in — all the things we built — and not feel a part
of it; being a stranger there. Because we rebuilt the whole place
ourselves with the help of winery workers. We rebuilt the house,
we built the terrace, we built the pool, we built the bleachers,
we built the whole thing, planted the trees — which are now all
grown up. It bothers me to go up. Last time they wouldn't let me
go into the house, and then I said, "That's the end."
Dorfman: That's understandable.
H. Fromm: Last time I was there was when my daughter was married at the
winery, in front of the wishing well, and it was simply beautiful.
Only the marriage didn't last.
Dorfman: That was too bad. What year was that?
H. Fromm: 1970, I think.
Dorfman: Are there other thoughts or memories that you have in connection
with the Music in the Vineyards project?
Conductors and Artists; Friends and Guests
H. Fromm: No, just the enormous amount of work and satisfaction. Saying
hello to eight hundred people whom you would meet in San
Francisco, and they would say, TJut I know you," and we didn't
know them. Because to us it was a blur of faces. And the good
times we had. Meeting interesting people, and all the musicians,
who stayed in the house.
Dorfman: Who particularly comes to mind, who stayed with you as a guest?
H. Fromm: They all stayed with us. And I can't remember the names anymore.
141
Kurt Adler
Derfman: The San Francisco Opera — you have known Kurt Adler.
H. Fromm: Kurt Herbert Adler; since he came here.
Dorfman: What year was that?
H. Fromm: I have to think back, because his wife was pregnant with his son.
He must be forty years old, at least, I think.
Dorfman: What kind of a person was Kurt Adler?
H. Fromm: He's a very powerful person, he's very dogmatic, he's a good
organizer. He's very charming when he wants to be, and he's very
knowledgeable about opera, music, and what he's doing, or was
doing. He's a very intelligent man. And difficult.
Dorfman: In what way?
H. Fromm: I mean, he's not difficult, socially. He was difficult at the
opera, because he wanted to have things done the way he wanted to
have them dene, and it's difficult to deal with all the prima
donnas. You know, who when somebody boos or somebody doesn't
applaud enough, then they say, "I'm not going on for the next
act."
But he did a marvelous job.
Dorfman: In what way did you and Mr. Fromm relate with Mr. Adler?
H. Fromm: We were friends. As a matter of fact, he got engaged at our house
in Kentfield, to his second wife. At the pool, more or less,
[chuckles] But, we were very good friends. I always gave a party
after the opening of the opera for people he wanted to invite;
fifty or sixty people for a sit down dinner. That was in our
young years. I don't think I could do it anymore. We went to bed
at six or seven o'clock in the morning. At times my husband said
to the artists, "You can stay up, you can make your breakfast if
you want to, but I'm going to bed." [laughs] So we had a very
good time.
Dorfman: Yes, I imagine you did.
H. Fromm: Met all the well-known singers. Like Leontyne Price, and Joan
Sutherland. But I stopped when, instead of fifty people, ninety
came for dinner, without my knowledge, without asking if they
could bring somebody. When somebody said, "Are you going to the
Fromms for dinner," I was told that a singer said, "Oh, who are
142
H. Fremm: the Fremms?" "Oh, they are the people who have a house by the
ocean where we get enough to eat, and dor' t have to stand in
line. "
Then I said, "That1 s it, finished. n
Dorfman : That was it. Who was the most personable of all the artists?
H. Fromm: I would say Leontyne Price.
Dorfman: In what way?
H. Fromm: She was fun to be with, she was intelligent and warm; told us
wonderful stories, jokes, and stories of her life. She and Regina
Resnick; they always stayed for a long time, and we sat around and
talked.
Dorfman: Did you talk about music?
H. Fromm: They don't want to talk about music. They don't want to listen to
music, they don't want to hear music after they have sung in an
opera.
H
Dorfman: When we turned the tape, you were talking about your relationship
with some of the opera artists and personalities who you had
entertained in your home. You said that most of them didn't want
to talk about music at that time, that they talked about what went
on backstage.
H. Fromm: Or about their lives. So many things go on backstage. This prima
donna doesn't want to go back and sing because she thought
somebody offended her, and lots of hysterics! And they love to
talk about it.
[chuckles] It's incredible. Because their whole life
revolves around this. Rehearsals, and fittings ©f costumes, and,
"this isn't right, and that isn't right," and arguments with the
conductor, or whatever.
Dorfman: Did you have many close friends who were members of the opera, or
of the symphony?
H. Fromm: Artists. Yes. Yes; conductors mainly. Not many singers. But
conductors usually. You know, singing is a special talent.
Singers remember all the notes, and all the words in a language
they don't even understand. If they sang in German, and I would
say anything in German to them, they wouldn't know what I was
talking about. Because they learn it very often by rote. They do
have this fabulous memory.
143
Dorfman: Which of the conductors comes to mind as a special friend?
H. Fromm: Oh. Steinberg. Leinsdorf. Bruno Walter, Josef Krips. There were
so many.
D«rfman: What do you remember about Josef Krips?
H. Fromm: Very nice. You know, socially, they are all different than
professionally.
William Steinberg
H. Fromm: When I saw some of them conduct, some of them were very nasty, or
very sarcastic, but socially they were very nice, very much fun.
And very interesting. Steinberg, especially was a very
intelligent and interesting man.
Dorfman: In what way?
H. Fromm: Very knowledgeable. His hobby was studying Sanskrit, on the side.
When he came to our house, he always disappeared into the other
room. He was always called "Steinberg," never by his first name —
Dorfman: Which was?
H. Fromm: His first name was William, but nobody seemed to use it. I said,
"What are you doing in this room?" (He was conducting the opera
here.) And he said, "I'm watching the fish bowL I watch the
fish open their mouths, and not a sound comes out. And it's so
wonderful." [laughter]
Dorfman: That* s wonderful. And Terence McEwen?
H. Fromm: I know him very superficially.
144
XIX PERSONAL REFLECTIONS AND FAMILY
Dorfman: You know, it has occurred to me that you are a very contemporary
woman both as an executive and a wife. And I wondered if you
would comment en that.
H. Fromm: I was brought up that way. Since my mother and I were alone after
I was fourteen, I had to really take care of her when she made a
trip. I had to get the tickets, I had to look up the time table.
I had to take care of a lot of things, and I was very independent.
Leaving at the age of seventeen to study in Essen and then for
England alone, and having to take care ef myself and my finances —
makes you independent.
In my husband's family, it was just the opposite. All the
women were very dependent on their husbands. They were all
together every night at my parents-in laws' house. Every night
they waited for the men to finish their business talk, and then
they all peeled the apples and oranges. To this day, I can't
peel an orange, [chuckles] because I was so rebellious.
I was there when I was sixteen. I was supposed to learn — I
was a house daughter, it was called — to learn haw to keep house.
Of course, I hated it — together with a cousin of my husband's,
who's still a good friend of mine. I said, "I couldn't live a
life like this." They weren't allowed to go to the movie, or to
go out alone. My father-in-law was a very strict man. He ruled
the house, and the women catered to him.
For them it was a natural thing to do, for me, it was an
unnatural thing t© do, since I was more-or-less 9n my own.
Dorfman: So that your role today is largely the result of your early
training and experience. Because you certainly are a most unusual
woman.
H. Fromm: I always went from one extreme t© the other. I was very sheltered
as a very young girl. I never had to clean my room; threw
everything on the floor, nobody ever said anything. Then, from
145
H. Fromm: that well-to-do environment, I went to Paris and to poverty, real
poverty, and having to work.
I suffered physically because I now had to sit fer eight
hours and sew instead of practicing — exercising my body for eight
hours. In this place where I worked, there was a toilet for the
employees that was a hole in the floor. Sometimes, I had to
stretch myself. I went into this toilet room and made the
bridge — you knew, you bend backwards, to stretch my body. One
day, I forgot to lock the door, and my boss came in. [laughs]
Can you imagine this sight? I was perched backwards over this
hole. He thought I was totally crazy.
Dorfman: You were in a backbend?
H. Fromm: Yes. And from that environment, again, then I went to the
sheltered environment of my relatives in London, who were very
conservative and very Orthodox. From there I went to Israel, or
at that time, Palestine, I worked as a cashier, and then I went to
New York, and got married and had a child. There were a lot of
changes. But you get used to it; you do miss it after a while.
Children and Grandchildren
Dorfman: You have one son, David, who lives in the East, and grandchildren
who are in the East as well. Your son was born in New York, and
your daughter was born here and resides here.
H. Fromm: In Sausalito. She has a son of about sixteen months, Alexander
Lurie.
Dorfman: And your daughter is married to Rabbi —
H. Fromm: Brian Lurie.
Dorfman: Your son —
H. Fromm: He lives in Syracuse, New York, and is the chief of surgery there,
at New York State University [SUNY], upstate New York, medical
school. He's married to Barbara Solter, from San Francisco. Her
father is a doctor. We have three grandchildren. Marc is twenty-
one. Ken is nineteen, and Kathy is sixteen. Marc goes to Tufts,
and Ken goes to Haverford, and Kathy is still home.
Dorfman: What are your expectations and hopes for your family?
H. Fromm: That they may be content — happy at whatever they choose to do.
>
146
Alfred Fromm
Dorfman: Can you tell me what life with Mr. Fromm is like?
H. Fromm: [chuckles] Hectic. All my life, I heard him say, "I will take it
easier soon." That has been from the very beginning. In the
beginning, he had to work very hard, and he traveled for six
months out of a year, which was very hard on me.
Dorfman: Oh, it must have been.
H. Fromm: He worked really terribly hard, to make a go of things. I'm sure
he told you why. That we lived in Riverdale, New York. And we
had to go out there by subway and then walk for twenty minutes.
He said, "I wasn't born to go by subway anywhere, and to be shoved
in winter, smelly cars, or to be shoved in, in summer, when
everybody smells." So he said, "I am working as hard as I can to
get out of this." So, it's been work, work, work. A lot of
traveling, a lot of fun, too.
Dorfman: You were telling me earlier about his feeling about space, as
opposed to your feeling about space.
H. Fromm: I like space, but not too much of it. I like a manageable space.
This [house] is sort of — if you don't have household help, it
becomes sometimes difficult to manage. It's manageable if I would
enjoy staying home all day and cleaning up, then it would be
manageable, but I'm not the person to do that.
Dorfman: But, Mr. Fromm, you said —
H. Fromm: He said he needs space, because, "positive thoughts need space and
a view."
Dorfman: You were going to tell me about how you came to build this house.
H. Fromm: We lived across the street. My husband, when I visited San
Francisco the first time in 1939, took me out here, and said,
"This is where we are going to live one day." We moved in 1941 to
San Francisco. After two years we were thrown out of our apartment
in San Francisco because we had a child. And moved to 845 El
Camino Del Mar, and looked across the street at this lot all the
time. We owned a small piece of property in Silicon Valley, a pie
shaped piece of property, which was of not much use to anybody.
Then my husband heard that General Motors was going to build
a plant there, so he offered them that lot, and they paid a fair
amount. On his birthday, on a Sunday, the real estate man came
and said, "This lot in Seacliff is for sale. But you have to make
147
H. Fromm: up your mind right away." So I said to him. "Forget that you ever
had the lot. and pay the price," which he did. And blamed me for
everything afterwards, but he said, "I'm glad you did push me. I
wouldn't have done it on my own." And we built the house with one
of the finest views of the Golden Gate in San Francisco.
Dorfman: You were telling me that Mr. Fromm told the architects, William
Wurster and Theodore Bernardi, that he wanted —
H. Fromm: A large house. And I wanted a small house that looked spacious.
But, since they were good businessmen, they built a large house.
And we needed the space at that time. Life was easier then, you
got household help without trouble. We had a lady for twenty-five
years, and then somebody for ten years, and then it was disaster
afterwards; every few months it was somebody else.
Dorfman: Which must make it very difficult to maintain.
H. Fromm: Also, I'm getting older, and it's harder. And I'm not a person
whe likes to stay home all day, be a housewife. So I'm really
dependent on help in this house. I would like to move in to a
smaller one, but my husband loves this house so much. Because
they were always property owners in Germany, and he feels this is
his property, this is his place. He doesn't want to move to an
apartment, he would feel displaced. He said, "I was displaced
once, and I don't want to feel displaced again." So we just do
the best we can.
So some things are dusty, and some things are run down. It's
the only way to live.
Dorfman: It's lovely. The view is magnificent.
H. Fromm: The view is fantastic, yes.
Dorfman: What do you think your most important contribution has been?
H. Fromm: It's hard to say. Bringing up children to be good citizens,
having a nice family and to be successful. Starting the Fromm
Institute for Lifelong Learning. Doing a lot of things for other
people.
.
Dorfman: What do you look forward to?
H. Fromm: Staying healthy — for all of us.
Derfman: About Mr. Fromm, what do you think is most important to him?
H. Fromm: The family, his business. He loves to work, and he still, at the
age of eighty, gees daily to the office. H<> leaves at eight
thirty, and comes home at five, five thirty, and works on so many
148
H. Fromm: different projects that his mind has to change every hour. That's
what keeps him going.
He comes home exhausted, and takes a nap, and then he's
fresh.
Dorfman: He has a wonderful mind.
H. Fromm: Yes. He can switch his mind very quickly.
Dorfman: Mr. Fromm has made many important contributions to the general
community, and to the Jewish community, both. What d© you think
he would consider the most important of those contributions?
H. Fromm: At one time it was the wine museum, which is now relocated. The
San Francisco Jewish Community Museum, and all the other things he
contributes to, not only money but time, to various
organizations.
Dorfman: What else might come to mind before we conclude?
H. Fromm: That I've had a very happy and productive life, up to now. With
many tragedies too. But, on the whole, it's been good.
Dorfman: Thank you for your time, and your involvement. Your interview
will provide a valuable resource.
Transcribed by Anne Schofield
Final Typed by Shannon Page
>
INTERVIEW WITH ALFRED FROMM ON MUSIC
>
149
INTERVIEW HISTORY -- Alfred Fromm
Alfred Fromm and Kurt Herbert Adler had a lot in common. They were born
and raised in German -speaking countries before World War I, they left Europe
in the 1930s in the face of Nazism, they eagerly launched new lives and
careers in the United States, and they brought a special brand of drive and
determination to achieve excellence in their work.
Fromm gave an extraordinary amount of time to the support of the arts in
the Bay Area. His involvement with San Francisco Opera grew from his close
personal relationship with Kurt Adler, whom he met in the early 1940s just
after Adler had come from Chicago to work as chorus director for the opera
company, and the two remained friends until Adler 's death in 1988.
Mr. Adler valued Mr. Fromm' s expertise in financial matters and
suggested he join the opera board of directors in 1973; Mr. Fromm did and has
been a member ever since, although he is the first to say that his only role
was to work directly with Mr. Adler and then only on matters financial. He
supported the company generously, he offered advice when it was asked of him,
and the Fromm home welcomed opera artists during many a fall season. Fromm
recalls many post-performance parties where wine and champagne flowed, and
from which he retired only at four a.m.: "I'm going to bed," he announced,
"because I'm a working man!"
In this interview, Mr. Fromm talks about the dynamics of arts giving in
the Bay Area, the Opera Association boards of directors, and other arts
companies with which he has been involved, and about the life and career of
Kurt Adler.
The interview took place in Mr. Fromm' s Montgomery Street office in
downtown San Francisco on a warm fall afternoon. He edited the text and
deleted certain portions he thought duplicated materials in the large oral
history.
Caroline Crawford
Music Interviewer
September 1988
Regional Oral History Office
486 The Bancroft Library
University of California at Berkeley
150
XX ALFRED FROMM AND THE SAN FRANCISCO OPERA
[Date of Interview: October 29, 1987] ##
A Longstanding Friendship; The Fromms and the Adlers
Crawford: Mr. Fromm, you are not a newcomer to oral history.
Fromm: Well, I am no expert, but I have done it before.
Crawford: Yes, I enjoyed reading your transcripts.
We are going to focus in this interview on your friendship
with Kurt Herbert Adler and your involvement in the arts here.
So let us begin with your talking about how you came to meet Mr.
Adler and his family.
Fromm: We lived in New York when we first came in 1936 from Germany. I
was in the wine business all my life and I wasn't the first
generation: our family in Germany were vintners for a few
hundred years. When I, with my associates, developed a business
in the United States for California wines, it was necessary for
me to go to California, as our firm had taken the representation
of the Christian Brothers in Napa, which is a religious order of
the Catholic Church. The Christian Brothers at that time didn't
know very much about wine, and so I moved in 1941 with my wife
and our son to San Francisco to counsel and to help.
Some friends of ours knew Kurt Adler from Vienna, and they
introduced him to us. Mrs. Adler at that time was pregnant with
Ronnie. As we both had started our profession, to build a life
in the United States, we became good friends. They came to our
house, and we came to theirs. We knew their children, and it was
really a personal friendship. We exchanged our experiences
because we were both newcomers. That's the way it started, and
has remained so, this friendship. It's now forty-four years that
we have known each other.
151
Crawford: What do you remember of Mr. Adler when you first knew him, in the
1940s?
Fromm: Well. I could see immediately that Kurt was a very active and
ambitious person, a real doer. He was first chorus master at the
opera, under Mr. Merola.
Mr. Merola, the general director of the San Francisco Opera
and a very intelligent man, soon found out that Kurt Adler was a
very unusual person. A man who worked immensely hard, who needed
very little sleep, who had a lot of good ideas, and quickly, in a
very short while, Kurt became Maestro Merola's assistant. When
Mr. Merola died, Kurt was appointed the director of the San
Francisco Opera.
Fromm: During his long tenure he has done a fabulous job. It is not
easy to be the director of a first-rate opera company, because
you are dealing with a lot of egos and some I would consider kind
of nuts.
Crawford: You are thinking of artists now?
Fromm: Yes. And I remember that once we were at the opera backstage
when they gave Boris Godunov, and I saw the people running around
because the star said he couldn't sing, for whatever reason.
Kurt came down and talked to him, and ten minutes later the
opera opened and it was a fabulous performance. But then I said
to Kurt, 'Kurt, believe me, I'd rather be in the wine business
than in your crazy one. "
Crawford: And what did he say?
Fromm: He laughed. He said, "I wouldn't mind being in the wine
business, but I know nothing about it. "
Kurt Adler as Impresario
Crawford: What do you think worried Mr. Adler about the business? Or put
another way, what taxed him?
Fromm: Well, there were always serious negotiations with the unions, and
the need of cutting expenses to a reasonable level. The public
in San Francisco is quite spoiled. They want a first-class
performance; they want some famous stars singing. Of course all
this unfortunately costs lots of money. Kurt was fabulous in all
these matters; he was a first-rate money-raiser, because he know
how to talk to the right people. He had this great gift of
152
Fromm: communication, regardless of whether the people were large or
small. Th:Is is a gift that very few people have. He could be
charming or tough—whatever was called for.
He was a tough taskmaster too, but I think he was the
toughest with himself.
Crawford: Did he like fund-raising?
Fromm: Well, I don't think it was a matter of liking, but a matter of
necessity. During that time, the opera was smaller, and there
was a lot less money than there is today.
I remember when the Adlers were at our house for a dinner
party. Tom Clausen, a friend of ours, who was at that time the
president of the Bank of America, and is presently its president
again, was one of our guests. Kurt talked with him, and he did it
with such enthusiasm that the Bank of America sponsored one of the
performances of the opera. That was a personal experience that
happened in our home.
Crawford: The story illustrates that he was always working.
Fromm: Yes, he did. During the years we knew each other we always gave
after the opening of the opera a party at our house. This was
before the Fol de Rol existed, which is a money-raising affair.
Kurt gave us a list of all the stars and they came out at twelve
or one o'clock when we could feed the artists with a good dinner,
because they mostly eat very little before they sing.
There was plenty of wine and champagne, and the conductors
and singers came — all the top people — and it generally went on
until three or four o'clock in the morning, when I said to our
guests, "There is still plenty to eat and plenty of wine, but I'm
going to bed because I'm a working manl" [laughs]
I think we had almost every one of the illustrious opera
stars in our house through the first fifteen or twenty years that
we knew each other.
Crawford: And you knew the children then. Kristin and Ronald.
Fromm: Yes. It might interest you that before Kurt and Nancy were
engaged they came to our country house in Kentf ield. We have a
pool there and it was summer, and he said to my wife, "This is a
very important day, because Nancy will tell me within the next
ten minutes if she will marry me or not." And he said to my
wife, "What do you think?" And Hanna said, "Well, if I had a
daughter I would think twice too, because there is a big
difference in your ages." We knew each other so well, that it
was an honest answer. Kurt said to Hanna, "Are you for me or are
153
Fromm: you against me?" She said to him, "You wanted an honest answer."
Anyway, they did get engaged in our summer house in
Kentfield. It was a good marriage because Nancy is a very
intelligent, spunky and pretty woman with a great love of the
opera.
Crawford: You've shared some important moments, then.
Fromm: Well, yes. We are old friends.
But what he did for the opera was unprecedented, and I think
there was never anyone else who could do that with limited funds.
He was a master in spending the money where it had to be spent,
and not spending where it could be saved.
Opera in San Francisco; Fund-Raising
Crawford: Do you think it is extraordinary that a city the size of San
Francisco supports such an opera house of world-class stature?
Fromm: It is, definitely. I'm a director of the opera for a very long
time; I think about fifteen years.
Crawford: According to my list of the boards of directors, it is since
1973.
Fromm: Yes. Maestro Merola and Adler have done so much to make the
opera a glamorous undertaking that it has its local roots. The
difficulty, I believe, is that when the old families who have given
so much money to the opera in previous years are not alive any
more, the children inherit and have to pay heavy taxes, and it
will be much more difficult to get these large amounts donated.
So it is necessary for the opera to be on a broader basis.
This was for a long time a very social affair, but will become
less and less so as time goes on.
Crawford: Is there a different kind of distribution of wealth today?
Fromm: Well, it's not the same kind of old wealth, where taxes were
almost nonexistent or very low. When people die with a very high
inheritance tax and large "ortunes get split up, it means that
the children and grandchildren don't have the large funds
available that have been in the past the main part of the opera's
income.
154
Crawford: What about corporate giving?
Fromm: Corporate giving is still not at the level it should be.
Corporations are generally not generous; of course they always
have the excuse that they are spending the money of the
stockholders, which is true, but on the other hand San Francisco
is not a manufacturing town — it is a headquarters town, and in
order to be a headquarters town it is necessary to have cultural
advantages that do not exist somewhere else.
For example, let's take Detroit, which is a larger city. It
has three or four hundred thousand people more than San Francisco,
but it doesn't have an opera. A cultural enterprise can only be
successful, Miss Caroline, if it is broad-based, and the opera in
San Francisco is a San Francisco institution.
Crawford: So you expect that the population here will continue to support
the opera and the other arts?
Fromm: Yes, but in the long run it will perhaps be a different sort of
people and not anymore such large gifts. There are such
wonderful people here, like Louise Davies, but one day Mrs.
Davies will not be here, and I don't know if Mrs. Davies1
children will be willing to spend that kind of money. Those are
all in the future, but they have to be considered today.
In addition to that, I feel that the opera has to spread out
and not just be a San Francisco institution but a regional
institution for northern California.
Crawford: When do you attend performances?
Fromm: We have box seats at the opera. First we went on Tuesday nights,
but that was such a bad night for me, so now we go on Fridays.
Crawford: Is that a different audience?
Fromm: Yes. Much more democratic.
Crawford: In 1978, patrons with preferred seating had to begin paying a
surcharge for their tickets. Some called it "blood money," and
it did represent a change in policy.
Fromm: Yes, there was resistance. When you ask people to pay. not
everybody will come forward. But it was absolutely necessary to
do this, because a very substantial sum comes in this way.
On the other hand, if you can presently afford to pay $62.50
for a ticket for each performance, then you can afford this
surcharge.
155
Serving on the Opera Board of Directors
Crawford: Let's go now to the board, because you have been a longtime
member of the San Francisco Opera Association board and have
bridged two administrations: that of Mr. Adler and also Mr.
McEwen. How did you come to join the board?
Fromm: Well, Kurt and I, since I am a businessman, often talked about
the business aspects of the opera, with which Kurt was very
familiar. One day he said, "Alfred, why don't you join the
board?" I said, "I can't contribute anything to the artistic
endeavor of the opera, but maybe I can assist you in financial
and administrative matters. If I can help, I will be happy to do
it." And that is the way I joined.
Crawford: Could you compare the boards on which you have served? I know
you have been on the Conservatory of Music board and others for a
long time.
Fromm: Well, when I joined the San Francisco Conservatory of Music
board, it was an awful mess. The conservatory was in really bad
shape as an institution and in its financial setup.
As you know, Miss Caroline, nothing can be done without
money. If you run an institution like that, it cannot be self-
supporting.
Crawford: It cannot be.
Fromm: No, it just can't be. But a few of us at the conservatory could
see that something would have to happen or it would disappear
completely. When Milton Salkind came in, he took hold of it — he
is a friend of ours too for many years — and he has done a
wonderful job of making the conservatory an outstanding
institution. It is one of the best in the country, and very many
of the graduates have made fine careers.
The fact that we have the conservatory here and the opera,
they really complement each other. That is what got me involved
here. I figured that between the conservatory and the opera some
good could be done.
And you know the opera had been for years a social affair,
and that did not really appeal to me, because I felt that you
need to involve many people, and I discussed this often with
Kurt. He understood it well; Kurt was a very intelligent man,
and he knew the way to get the cooperation of the so-called
social strata of the opera.
N
156
Crawford
Fromm:
Crawford
Fr ouim :
Crawford ;
Fromm:
Crawford !
Fromm:
Crawford:
Fromm:
Crawford
Fromm :
Crawford:
Fromm:
Tell me, what was Mr. Adler's rapport with the board?
It was excellent. He really knew how to talk to people. You
know, if you can run an opera house and deal with all the stars
and unions, you can deal with almost anyone.
What about Robert Watt Miller? You weren't on the board when he
was president, but you must have known him.
Yes. He was a great friend of the opera, and he did a great
deal. But his time has passed. Today, the opera has to be a
more democratic institution that needs a broader basis.
Did the board ever resist Mr. Adler's wishes — his desire for new
productions, for example?
Not that I know of. No, I think he had the full cooperation of
the board. When I joined the board, Walter Baird was president.
What was his relationship to Mr. Adler like?
Very good. Wally Baird is still on the board; I've known him for
a long time. He was with Price Waterhouse, the large accounting
firm, and I think he was very helpful to Kurt. In fact, it was
one of the gifts Kurt had, that people would extend themselves to
help him accomplish something that he felt was necessary. It is
a very well known fact, Miss Caroline, that most of the work is
not done by fifty people on the board, but by a few.
How has the board changed?
Well, the entire board management has changed. The president and
the other officers are mostly business people, practical people,
and I think this change is something that was absolutely
necessary. People who see that the funds come in and many who
give large amounts themselves. It's a different board today,
much more democratic and much more effective.
This relates to what you were talking about earlier,
become more broad-based.
the need to
Yes.
What was your role on the board, as you saw it?
I didn't have a role of any importance on the board. I think I
could do more by talking directly to Kurt, because if you have
forty or fifty people there, it isn't conducive to do much. I
have for many years helped the opera financially to the best of
our ability. Whenever there was anything that needed to be done,
my wife and I were there to assist, 1-i.ke inviting certain
157
Fromm: artists, which I understood was part of Kurt's public relations.
Some of the stars came to our house for dinner, and we
became with some of them quite friendly. They were sometimes
narrow [-minded] , but with fabulous voices. And there were also
some fabulous voices who were broadgauged. I hope you don't mind
that I'm so outspoken!
Crawford: Not at all. That makes it more lively and a whole story.
Dealing with the Unions
Crawford: You mentioned in your own interview that you suggested to Mr.
Adler that he get the unions to help sponsor lower-priced
tickets. Which unions came forward?
Fromm: Very little has been done in this area. But I always said to
Kurt, "We have got to get the union people interested because
that makes it easier to deal with them, too." This was one of
the great jobs Kurt did, to be able to deal with the unions.
But there are today a lot of union people who make very good
money and could become gradually interested. I am not thinking
of a union in a steel mill; it's people who made already years
ago good money and who want their children to be culturally
better educated. That's one thing.
The other thing is to go into the suburbs, and I mentioned
this often to Kurt. The opera needs directors from San Jose;
they need directors from Oakland, from the outlying districts of
the Bay Area because San Francisco as a headquarters city has
cultural facilities, and the population of San Francisco is
really too small to raise all the money that is needed. We
should expand into the very wealthy outreach territories that we
have around San Francisco, and Kurt understood this very well.
Crawford: Was this implemented?
Fromm: Only to some extent. I think it will be implemented now with the
people who are running the opera, the businessmen.
Crawford: Do you think the board is strong now, in the eighties?
Fromm: Yes. Particularly the officers of the board are successful,
active businessmen. And you know, if you are successful in your
business, you learn how to run things, and the opera is a
business too, a cultural one.
158
Crawford: Is Mr. McEwen as much of a presence before the board as Mr. Adler
was?
Fromm: Yes, but in an entirely different way. Kurt was an all-around
man. He could do almost anything, and McEwen is probably not
that versatile. As I told you before, I cannot criticize or
account for the musical level because I'm not educated for that,
and I hate to talk about things I don't know much about.
Donors for the Future: "A Great Reservoir"
Crawford: Let me ask you then about something you said in an earlier
interview. You said that in earlier years, there were few Jewish
members on the boards of directors. Are there more now?
Fromm: Yes, there are. You know, being Jewish is not always an easy
life, but that has changed greatly in this country. I can talk
about this because I come from Germany and I lived through the
Nazi hell. We escaped in time, otherwise we wouldn't be alive.
I think today you have in general in the country less
prejudice among the various religions and races, because in the
end you know there are good people in every religion as well as
bad ones. We have a great number of Japanese and Chinese
citizens, some of them extremely wealthy, and also from other
Asian countries. Think also of the many people of Mexican
origin who are becoming integrated into the American way of
life. There is a great reservoir for the future, but we must
start now to get them interested. They are hard-working and
their children will work for the finer things in life.
If you look back to the great disagreements between
Catholics and Protestants, they were without good reason. If one
wants to go to one church and someone else to another, well, let
them do it. After all, we all live together in one place and we
have to get along together.
Crawford: We have talked about the donor community a little and it seems to
me that individual sponsorship of opera productions in the last
few years have been increasing. I'm talking about contributions
in the order of a quarter of a million dollars now. Do you think
those sponsors are diminishing in numbers?
H
159
Fromm: Ultimately, they will, yes. Most of the large sponsors of the
opera belong to the older generation, who were interested in the
opera and did so much for it, and there will be in the future
fewer and fewer of them. It is the natural way of life.
In my opinion, it is of utmost importance to get young
people and people from all walks of life interested so that the
opera becomes an institution that is close to the hearts of all
the people, all of them looking for some romance. You know, if
it becomes strictly cultural business, without some romance, then
the average person says, "What the hell do I have to do with
this?"
Crawford: I like your way of putting it — the idea of romance.
The Fromm Family and the Arts
Crawford:
Fromm:
What about your own children?
as you and your wife?
Are they as involved in the arts
Well, my daughter Caroline is, but my son David is less so. He
is a surgeon and the chairman and chief of the Wayne State
University department of surgery, which has one of the largest
surgical departments in the United States. So he has four
hospitals under him and thirty-two surgeons. He seems to be an
outstanding surgeon, but I don't know anything about surgery. My
wife does, because she is the daughter of a doctor, who was very
well known.
Crawford: So that was a natural avenue for him. And Caroline?
Fromm: She is a psychotherapist and has her own practice. She just had
a little girl so she is not doing much professionally right now.
She is married to Brian Lurie, who is one of the most intelligent
and well known young leaders of the Jewish community. He is the
head of the Jewish Welfare Foundation, which is the Jewish head
organization. He is a really outstanding man. They live in
Sausalito. You know, most fathers think there is no man good
enough to marry his daughter, but my wife and I are happy.
Crawford: Oh, that's remarkable. Good!
>
160
The Adler Temperament and the Question of Retirement
Crawford:
Froram :
Crawford
Let me now concentrate on your friendship with Mr. Adler.
would you describe that personality?
How
Well, I know that in his work, Kurt was rough and had to be
rough. It was necessary to accomplish what he had to do. In our
relationship, that never played any role. We always enjoyed
ourselves and talked about what was going on in the world. It
was a strange country to come to in some ways, when you grew up
and had your roots in Europe.
On the other hand, I am one of the America-firsters. There
is no place in the world like it, even with all its warts. I've
been around the world quite a bit, because our firm in Germany
was a very large exporter, and I traveled very extensively
throughout the world, so I know what I am saying.
Was Mr. Adler ever tempted to leave San Francisco and return to
Vienna?
Fromm: I don't think so.
Crawford: Even when Maestro von Karajan invited him to Vienna as his
administrative chief?
Fromm: Well, the San Francisco Opera was a bigger and more fulfilling
job, that Kurt has developed. It was his child.
Crawford: Did his retirement come as a surprise to you?
Fromm: Well, Kurt and I talked about it quite a bit. The time comes for
everyone. I am eighty-three, and I retired when I was seventy-
nine, and I did it because I thought it was time, although I must
say I'm busier now than I was for many years when I ran a
substantial wine and brandy business.
Crawford: Some retirement!
Fromm:
Well, I don't know what else to do. I've worked since I was
fifteen years old! Retirement, though, has given me a chance to
do substantial pro bono work. I spend about 80 percent of my
time doing it, There is not the need to make money any more, and
there is not the continuous demand on my time for business
matters.
You know, it takes simple people who are willing to work and
who have common sense. It is not a question of the smartest
people. I have met a lot of smart people, and they have made such
a mess of their own lives that it is really pitiful.
161
Crawford: Tell me, if you would, what Mr. Adler is doing at the Fromm
Institute.
Fromm: We have always had courses in music, which were very popular,
since we started twelve years ago. Since we knew Kurt very well,
we asked him to become a professor at the institute, and he
enthusiastically accepted.
He gave fabulous lectures, and the elderly ladies swooned,
because he addresses them in the proper way, and his was one of
our most popular courses.
He teaches, of course, about opera, and there are so many
stories that it's an enjoyable course, and at the same time, the
students learn a great deal. It's so mixed up with anecdotes,
and Kurt is a master in telling it.
So we are very happy with him, and of course all our
professors are paid — some twenty-five or thirty of them — and we
have a waiting list of many professors now that the institute is
known. Professors have the same problem as everyone else. They
say when they retire that they don't want to teach anymore, but
soon they feel like fish out of water.
Crawford: Teaching is what they know.
Fromm: It is what they know, and they need the adoration and the feeling
that they are important. It has a lot to do with ego, I think;
I'm not a psychiatrist and I don't worry about it. [laughter]
Even so, I'm aware of psychiatry since Erich Fromm is my second
cousin, and a few members of our family practice it.
Crawford: I didn't know that. I read his books with great pleasure.
Fromm:
Has Adler been content with retirement?
Only partially, I believe.
The Adler Legacy
Crawford: Well, let me move on now to the last question: the Adler legacy.
What has he left to the region and to the Bay Area?
Fromm: He has left an opera organization that is known throughout the
world, which he created. When Merola ran the opera, it was a
very nice local institution, but it was not an opera of world
class. It was Kurt who did this. This is his greatest
accomplishment, and he did it with less personnel and less money
Fromm :
Fromm:
Crawford :
Fromm:
162
than anyone else who has followed after him.
Crawford: Was there genius there?
Definitely. When I think of my own life, it's like going up a
ladder: you go up six steps and then you look up and try to go
another six steps, and when you are at twelve steps you try for
another six. After that, you don't have to do it for the money
anymore, because most likely you are financially secure; you do
it because you want to prove to yourself that you can do it.
If you put a great deal of effort in yourself and you want
to see how far you can go. I think that's what Kurt's life was.
Maybe that's why we were always on a common level, and I think
that's why I did understand Kurt. He wanted to do something
outstanding for his own satisfaction.
Was your background similar to his?
upbringing?
Your education and
No, not at all. Kurt has had an entirely different education
than I had. I started to serve an apprenticeship when I was
fifteen, while Kurt had the whole gymnasium-university training
and then started in the music and theater field. Our careers
were entirely different, but I think our goals and our attitudes
were quite similar.
Crawford: I appreciate your answering my questions.
Fromm: You're welcome. I hope it was what you wanted.
Transcribed by Shannon Page
Final Typed by Shannon Page
TAPE GUIDE
163
ALFRED FROMM
Interview 1:
tape 1,
tape 1,
May 16,
side A
side B
1985
tape 2, side A
Interview 2:
tape 1,
tape 1,
tape 2,
July 19
side A
side B
side A
1985
tape 2, side B
Interview 3: July 23, 1985
tape 1, side A
tape 1, side B
tape 2, side A
Interview 4:
tape 1
tape 1
tape 2
July 31, 1985
side A
side B
side A
tape 2, side B
Interview 5: August 8, 1985
tape 1, side A
tape 1, side B
Interview 6: January 31, 1986
tape 1, side A
tape 1, side B
Interview 7: May 22, 1987
tape 1, side A
1
1
8
10
17
17
20
29
38
43
43
49
56
57
57
63
73
81
90
90
97
106
106
111
100
100
HANNA FROMM
Interview 8:
tape 1,
tape 1:
December 23, 1986
side A
side B
tape 2, side A
116
116
128
142
ALFRED FROMM (Interview on Music)
Interview 9: October 29, 1987
tape 1, side A
150
150
164
APPENDICES
A. "Hocks and Moselles, How They are Growing and Ripening."
House of Fronun, Germany. 165
B. "Deutscher Wein: Wie er wachst und reift," N. Fromm, Bingen am Rheim,
Germany. 174
C. Wine labels of N. Fromm, Germany, 1929 and 1932. 193
D. "Dean of Wine Tasters Sips For Three Hours Daily," San Francisco
Examiner. June 8, 1953. Article about Max Fromm. 194
E. Letter from Paul Fromm, October 20, 1986. 195
Brief Biography of Paul Fromm 196
An Addition by Alfred Fromm about his brother, Paul Fromm 198
Obituary of Paul Fromm, New York Times. July 6, 1987. 199
"New American Music: The Living Legacy of Paul Fromm."
Chicago Tribune. July 9, 1987.
F. Program of a concert honoring Herbert Fromm, January 30, 1977. 201
>
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DEUTSCHER
WEIN
er wdckst und reift
SEIT 1864
Gin Qang durck die dCellereien wn
HAUS FROMM
BINGEN AM RHEIN
DEUTSCHER WEIN
WIE ER WACHST UNO REIFT
SEIT 1864
N.FROMM
WEINBAU UNO WEINGROSSKELLEREIEN
SEIT 1864
B I N G E N A. R H.
fflauG fawnm, ftincefi a.Rfwti
inyenaffikein
im Wlittelpunkt desdeutschen QfJeinbaugebietes
RHEINGAU
Jfe/nbery
Johannisbeni
Assminnstiiusen
• Rudesheim
Wunburg
\
Kihingen
. - Enkirch
Traben . J
• irjrbacn
• Ere/en
• Zeltingen
Laubenheim
Bodanheim
Nientein
Oppenheim
Kreuznach •
MunstenSt •
• Berncastel
• Brauneberg
Piesport
Dienheim
Guntersblum •
» Durkheim
, Wachenheim
m Deidesheim
• Forst
• Rupperteberg
* Konigsbach
SMoss Boclfelhfim.
A/sheini
Liebfraumilch
EINEGROSSEDEUTSCHEWEINKELLEREI
AM RHEIN
OUTER WEIN HAT DIESEN LOHN:
DASS MAN LANGE REDT' DAVON.
T. V. Eckehard, 1727
Inmitten der Rebenhange des Rheines und der Nahe, nur durch den
Strom vom Rheingau getrennt, unweif der Rheinpfalz, der Mosel und
Saar liegt Bingen im Herzen des deutsdien Weinlandes. In dieser
alten Weinstadt laufen die tausend Fa'den des Weinbaus zusammen.
Wer von Mainz her rheinabwarts kommt, erblidct vor den Toren
Bingens, an der Rheinuferstrafje, ein statfliches Patrizierhaus, das
Hauptgebaude der weitbekannten Weinkellereien N. Fro mm.
Seit dem Griindungsjahr 1864 widmet sich das Haus Fromm der
Pflege des deutschen Qualitatsweines. Nahezu 70 Jahre besitzt es die
SEIT
1864
Haus Fromm am Fufje des Rochusberges
Gunst seiner treuen Freunde. Hervorragender fachmannischer Fuh-
rung, steter enger Fiihlungnahme mit den Freunden des Hauses, sorg-
samem Eingehen auf all' deren Wunsdie verdankt die Firma N. Fromm
ihren Aufstieg zu einer der grorjten und angesehensten deutschen
Weinkellereien. Da mit dieser Entwicklung die alte Kellerei des
Stammhauses in Kitzingen a. M. nidif Schritt halten konnte, wurde der
Sitz der Firma nadi Bingen am Rhein verlegt und Kellereien und Kel-
tereibetriebe in einer mustergultigen Anlage zusammengefarjt. Die
Kellereien in Bingen sind in ihrer Geschlossenheit wohl die
grofjten des rheinischen Weinba ug e bietes und gelten
bei Weinfadileuten als eine Sehenswurdigkeit am Rhein. In
dieser Pflegestatte deutsdien Weines wirken 150 Kufer und Ange-
stellte unter Leitung ihres Seniordiefs Kommerzienrat Max Fromm
und wetteifern in dem Bestreben, dem Weltruf deutschen Weines zu
dienen.
SEIT
1864
frvrnm, ftwyen a.tRfieitt
We i n bergslage , Sch a r I a ch berg"
VON DER TRAUBE ZUM WEIN
Das Landschaftsbild des deutschen Weinbaugebietes empfangt Linie
und Bewegung durch die Rebenhiigel, die in Hangen und ragenden
Bergen an den Ufern des Rheins und seiner Nebenflusse Mosel, Nahe
und Main aufsteigen. Klima und Bodenbeschaffenheit schufen hier die
Vorbedingungen fur eine Jahrtausende alte Weinkultur.
Von fleifjiger, sorgsamer Winzerhand betreut durchziehen die Reben
Stock an Stock in geradlinigen nZeilen" den Weinberg. Zunachst blatt-
lose Stammchen treiben sie hochwachsend in der ersten Entwicklung
Blatter, im Spattruhling Gescheine (Bluten), und nach der Bliite den
Beerenknoten, der erstarkend und saftbildend dem Herbst entgegen-
reift. Haben Natur und bodenverwachsene Winzererfahrung in den
Monaten September-Oktober das Reifewerk vollendet, so rustet man
zur Weinlese.
Den Zeitpunkt der Lese bestimmt das Wetter. Sind die Herbsttage
sonnig und trocken, so beginnt die Weinlese erst in den letztenWochen
. ,D1864
-
b 3~rcmm , ftmen a.ftfiein
Eine Ecke im Kelterhaus
des Spatherbstes; denn umso grower ist der naturliche Zuckergehalt,
je langer die Traube reift. In solchen Jahren werden die kostlichen
.Spatlesen'und ,Auslesen"gewonnen. AufdenberuhmtenWeinbergs-
lagen schenkt man in sonnengesegneten Jahren denTrauben so lange
Leben am Stock, bis sie rosinenartig zusammenschrumpfen. Sie ergeben
die wertvollen nBeerenauslesen" und .Jrockenbeerenauslesen", deren
quantitativgeringesKelterergebnisdurchdieuberragendeGutedieser
Weine um ein Vielfaches ausgeglichen wird.
Bin jeder Winzer lebt innig mit seinem BWingert" und seinem Wein.
So gestaltet sich die Weinlese zu einem frohen Fest: Gesang sdiallt
von den Bergen, Musik undTanz kunden den Abschlurj ernstersorgen-
voller Monate der Arbeit.
In diesen Tagen sind die Weinberge von lebhaftem Ernte-Treiben
eHiillt. Emsige Leser und Leserinnen schneiden dieTrauben, sammeln
sie von ,Zeile" zu ,Zeile" in Eimern und Bottichen und bringen sie
zur Traubenmiihle, wo die Beeren an Ort und Stelle zu Maische ge-
mahlen werden.
SEIT : 7)1864
fovrntn, fti/iyea a.&fiein
Teilgang im Moselkeller Nr. 12
IN DEN FELSENKELLERN DES HAUSES FROMM
Auf dem Wege von der Traube zum Wein sind wir den geherbste-
ten Beeren vom Weinberg in die Kelterhauser und dem gekelterten
Beerensaft (Most) in die Garkeller gefolgt. Der ausgegorene ..Feder-
weifje" wandert nunmehr in die unterirdischen Kellergewolbe. In die-
sen Lagerkellern reift der Jungwein unter fachkundiger Pflege heran.
Oft dauert es Jahre, bis er ausgereift ist. Liebevolle Beobaditung und
reidie Erfahrung sind notwendig, um im Wein das Beste zu wecken,
was er herzugeben vermag.
19 miteinander verbundene breite Keller sind tiet in die
Weinbergsfelsen eingesprengt. Durch ihre stetige unveranderlidie
Temperatur sind sie dem Weine eine ideale Pflegestatte. Natiirliches
Quellwasser wird in Kanalen durdi alle Kellergange geleitet, Feudv
tigkeit sattigt die Luft und bewahrt das Fafyholz vor dem Austrocknen.
Luftschachte regeln den Temperaturen-Ausgleidi. In diesen einzigar-
tigen Gewolben reiht sidi Faf) an Fafj in sdiier unendlidien Fluditen.
SEIT f ' 1364
Wan* Jrvmtn, (Bingen a.
Rheinweinkeller Nr. 16
Millionen Lifer deutschen Weines vom leichten Konsum-
wein bis zu den feinsten Qualitatsgewachsen und erlesensten Spitzen-
weinen barren hier ihrer Bestimmung. Die Felsenkeller beherbergen
nur deutsdie Weifjweine, wahrend die Rotweine in daruber liegen-
den warmeren Kellergesdiossen lagern.
Jeder Wein und jeder Jahrgang bedarf seiner besonderen Pflege und
Behandlung bis zur abgesdilossenen Reife. Erst wenn sein Wesen
harmonisch entfaltet ist, wird der Wein Jlaschenreif befunden und
mit Hilfe hygienischer Kellereimasdiinen auf die Flasche gezogen,
um dann zur weiteren, oft langjahrigen Lagerung in die Flaschen-
wein-Keller zu wandern. In einem dieser Flaschenkeller des Hauses
Fromm birgt ein einziges riesiges Gestell eine halbe Million
abgefiillter Flaschen.
Weit ist der Weg von der Traube zum Wein. Jahre vergehen, bis
sich der nFederweifje" in den Flaschenwein gewandelt hat und der
unter sorgsamer Obhut gereifte Wein nun im Versandaufzug wieder
an's Tageslidit tritt.
'364
7rvmtn, 'B-ingen a.ftfiein
Ver bi nd u n g sga ng im Hauptkeller
Pfalzweinkeller Nr. 4
SEIT O>.TA> 1864
, Bwyeu a.Mein
Holzgeschnitzte Kufer-Meisterstiicke im Kabinettkel ler
Blick in einen der Flaschenwelnkeller
1864
Want
a.Mein
Seitengang im Flaschenweinkeller Nr. 3
SEIT -.:.. .. •"'. 1364
Teilansicht aus denVer-
sandhallen
Elektrische Aufziige befor-
dern die Flaschen aus den
Flaschenweinkellern indie
Packraume. Tagesleistung
15000 Flaschen.
a.ftfieiri
Packhof
Die in den Versandhallen
ausgestatteten und ver-
packten Flasdnen treten
hier ihre Reise nach dem
Inland und alien Teilen
derWelt an.
SEIT ; f> 1864
^rumm, ftinyen
In 25 neuzeitlichen, dem Umfang des Betriebes entsprechenden Euros wird
die organisatorische Arbeit geleistet, die den Wein von Weinberg, Kelter
und Keller zu den Freunden Fromm'scher Weine fuhrt.
SEIT <"
1864
-
tTrcmm , ftinyen a.Mein
WEINPROBE IM HAUSE FROMM
DIE DEUTSCHEN WEINE UNO IHRE EIGENART.
Weinproben versammeln taglich den Chef des Hauses und seine
fachmannischen Mitarbeiter zu bestimmter Stunde im Probierraum.
Das Ergebnis der Weinprobe entsdieidet iiber den Ausbau und die
Pflege der Weine. So wird im engsten Zusammenwirken aller fur
den Kunden tatigen Krafte die Gewahr fur hochste Qualitat und Be-
kommlichkeitderWeine des Hauses Frommgeboten. Zeichen und Aus-
druck dieser Eigenschaften ist das auf alien Etiketten wiederkehrende
Bild des .betenden Winzers iiber dem rot-weirj gezackten Wappen".
Verschieden wie der Gesdimack der einzelnen Weine sind dieWiinsche
des Weinliebhabers und die Gelegenheiten, bei denen man Wein
kredenzt. EntsprechendderBodenbesdiaffenheit und den klimatisdien
Vorbedingungen ist der Charakter der Rheinweine ein anderer als
der der Moselweine, und der Pfalzer wiederum anders als der Wein
von Main und Nahe.
SEIT
1864
ftinyen a.Rfiein
Singer Rosengarten
Unsere Ausstattung (ges. geschiitjt)
Mit Bild und Text dieser kleinen Schrift versuchten wir, den
Werdegang des Weines in seiner Pflegestatte darzustellen.
Fiihrt Sie, freundlicher Leser, Ihr Weg zum Rhein, so laden
wirSieherzlichstein.uns in Bingen zu besuchen.
N. FROMM IN BINGEN AM RHEIN
SEIT T> 1864
>
193
Contents 1 Pi. and 7 Fl. OZ.
1932
Rauenthaler Nonnenberg
Grown and bottled in German)
Contents 1! 8 R OZ. Bottled in 1932
1929
Riidesheimer SchloBberg
Product of Germany. Contents not over 14 Vol. °/0 Ale
<KITZINGEN>
NGE
AM RHHN
19*
Dean of Wine Tasters
Sips for 3 Hours Daily
By DFLYS
The Cer.-rai Tower Building
a -o*ably modern structure, has
c= its third floor a small, highly
a.-3:satic room in w.lich a aun
-f raler.t carries on the pursuit
cf a career begira sixty-five
•-=»ars aco en the banks of t*ie
Shin*
Msx Frcm*n. the mar., is a
wine raster.
He is 60 years old. is gen
erally regarded as the dean of
America's wine tasters, and
rvery cay he passes three ho»-s
in the room s'r?ir>S 150 differ
ent wines.
SWALLOWS LITTLE.
Since each wine rates four or
five sips, wine enters and leaves
his lips more than 600 times in
those three hours. He does not
get addled, of course, because
a wine taster swallows exceed
ing little.
Max Fromm brought his deli
cate art here from Germany and
he did so because he saw no
point in wasting it on the men
of the Nazi creed.
He was born to the world of
wine in Bingen. Germany.
His grandfather had a vine
yard, his father created a
winery, and young Max became
an apprentice at the age of 12.
WTNS "LEHRBRIEF.-'
When he reached his fifteenth
year he got his lehrbrief. the
•letter of finished education"
that dubbed him an authority
on wine.
In the natural course of fam
ily events he became president
of the Fromm winery.
In the unnatural course of
totalitarian events be saw the
day, in 1938. when the winery
was taken from him.
A Nazi leader told him he had
taken a liking to the winery
and would purchase it. The sum
was negligible. The alternative
was a concentration camp.
COMES TO U. S.
Max Fromm and his wife.
Lea. left the new Germany in
disgust and came to America.
New York held them but a
few months. Fromm. then 65.
was anxious to embark again
on his career so he came to San
Francisco and joined forces
with his sons. Norman and Al
fred) who distribute Christian
Brothers wines and brandies
and own the Paul Masson Vine
yards.
JONES
"The English language
strange enough to him to cause
him to bypass the administra
tive element of the business and
become the master taster. The
taste of wine, he pointed «ot, 1*
a universal - r -i r •
So. daily at 9 in th* morning
Fromm enters his tasting room
and he stays, there until noon.
NO EVTERRUPTIONS.
He brooks no interruptions-
for those three hours.
The procedure which requires
his fun concentration is as fol
lows:
He lifts the glass and
swirls it gently.
Then he sniffs the bouquet,
for the smell is almost as im
portant as the taste.
He lowers the glass, then
puts it to his lips.
He takes the tiniest sip
Imaginable and rolls the
liquid on the tip of his tongue.
finally, he spits out the
wine.
Very occasionally he swallows
a bit, to see- how smoother it
goes down.
WRITES OF REACTIONS.
After each sampling he writes
his reactions in a notebook.
One reads: 'Clean, hamionl
ou* and round — abnoct seduc-
tive.-
But another reads: "Poor
dead and has no tatt. (Having no
tail means having no after
taste.)
Still a third will be a combi
nation: "Fresh and young but
sticks."
Max Fromm Is enthusiastic
about his work anyway.
But he has an extra enthusi
asm these years because he is
convinced that California wine
win some day be the best in the
world and he regards himseli
as a pioneer in the attainment
of that goal
San Francisco Beowtner
- ~
• . . ,
EXPERT— M" Fromm. 80, etlltd th. :,«- of Aa<
• =« tmitcr*. i :i in a t«*t at feu •ffie* i» dowatowv 5 «= Fi
-I-.- Z .- - l ki* -•?-:-- c • ; : t «i» -« lipt ISO i '•••!
wia«». H« i-i-- 1 : Ut« r - r • t >i r- i i •;»•'»; » •»• i if- ia Ccrraal
SEES NEW GAINS.
He firmly pooh-poohs the no
tion that only Europe can pro
vide great wines.
To his thinking, long and
painstaking work can make
California's soil and climate
combine to produce even great
er wines.
He wouldn't go back to Ger
many on a bet — because the fu
ture of wine is here.
But he has one complaint and
that concerns the younger gen
eration.
He is shocked because his sens
cannot match his 600 sips in
three hours — they're only good
for some 200.
195
PAUL FROAAM
10JS WEST VAN BUSES STREET
CHICAGO. ILLINOIS 60607
October 20, 1986
Mr. Alfred Frorrrm
655 Montgomery Street
Suite 1720
San Francisco, California 94111
Dear Alfred:
The enclosure contains the information
you requested.
CordiallY,
PF:CE
Encs.
NAME:
DATE OF BIRTH:
PLACE OF BIRTH:
PROFESSION:
FAMILY:
196
BIOGRAPHICAL SKETCH
Paul Fromm
September 28. 1906
Kitzingen, Germany
Business Executive
Married; one daughter
PROFESSIONAL POSITION: President, Kenwood Corporation and Fromm Management
Corporation
ASSOCIATIONS WITH
CULTURAL & EDUCATIONAL
INSTITUTIONS:
President of the Fromm Music Foundation until 1972;
since then Director of the Fromm Music Foundation at
Harvard University.
MEMBERSHIP IN THE FOLLOWING VISITING COMMITTEES:
University of Chicago
a) Division of the Humanities
b) Music Department
Boston University
Board of Visitors
Princeton University
Advisory Council
University of Illinois
Citizens Committee
HONORS AND AWARDS:
Director. American Music Center
1960:
Award in the field of philanthropy from The
Immigrant's Service League (presented by the late
Adlai E. Stevenson)
Chicagoan of the Year in the Arts — Chicago Junior
Association of Commerce and Industry
197
BIOGRAPHICAL SKETCH — PAUL FROMM (cont.)
HONORS AND AWARDS (cont.)
1967;
Honorary Doctor of Music Degree — New England
Conservatory of Music
Laurel Leaf Award for Distinguished Achievement in
Fostering and Encouraging American Music — American
Composers Alliance
1973;
Jessie L. Rosenberger Medal for "incomparable
contribution, through the Fromm Music Foundation, to
the composition, performance and criticism of
contemporary music" — University of Chicago
Distinguished Service in the Arts — Cliff Dwellers
dub, Chicago
1974;
Honorary Doctor of Music degree — University of
Cincinnati
1976:
American Music Center Award
1977;
Mu Phi Epsilon International Music Sorority Citation
of Merit
1978;
Illinois Governor's Award for the Arts
1983;
The George Peabody Medal for Outstanding
Contributions to Music in America, awarded by The
Peabody Institute of The Johns Hopkins University,
Baltimore, Maryland.
1986;
Golden Baton Award of the American Symphony
Orchestra League
198
Mr. Fromm suggested that the following be included:
For his accomplishments, Paul was awarded an Honorary Doctor of Music
degree from the New England Conservatory of Music in 1967, and in 1974 an
Honorary Doctor of Music degree from the University of Cincinnati. He is a
member of the Visiting Committee of the Music Departments of the University
of Chicago, Boston University, Princeton University, and of the University
of Illinois Citizens Committee. Until recently he was also on the Visiting
Committee of Harvard University.
In 1960 he received an award from The Immigrant's Service League,
presented by Adlai E. Stevenson, in the field of philanthropy, and in the
same year was named Chicagoan of the Year in the Arts. In 1978 he received
the Illinois Governor's Award for the Arts; in 1983, the George Peabody
Medal for Outstanding Contributions to Music in America, awarded by The
Peabody Institute of The Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Maryland.
In 1986, he received the Golden Baton Award of the American Symphony
Orchestra League.
I ' f
Paul Fromm, Classical-Music Patron, Is Dead
By JOHN ROCKWELL
Pa' I Fromm, a German-born wine
Importer who became the mosi acuve
ftjnd distinguished private patron of
contemporary classical music in the
United States, died Saturday at ihc
Bernard Mitchell Hospital of the Uni
versity of Chicago after a series of
tvai't attacks. He was 80 years old and
Kid lived in Chicago.
Through his Fromm Music Founda-
lion, now based ai Harvard University,
pdr. Fromm dispersed commissions to
American composers of every stylistic
^ort Ho also supported performances
of new music, especially at the Univer
sity of Chicago, ihe Tanglewood Festi
val (where the "Fromm week" of con
temporary concerts became an annual
tradition) and the Aspen Music Festi
val.
"We composers have lost our dear-
csl friend and leader." said Kalph
Shapc-y. the composer, in a statement.
"He had a total commitment as our
champion. He believed in us and dared
us to believe in ourselves." At an 80th-
birthday concert for Mr. Fromm last
year in Chicago, Mr. Miapry had called
him "the Esterhazy of the 20th cen
tury." in reference to Haydn's patron.
Earle Brown, a composer and the
Fromm Foundation director who will
be primarily responsible for us contin
uance, said yesterday: "He was the
leading sponsor of contemporary
music in the United States His love and
support for new music were just ex
traordinary."
Family of Vintners
Paul Fromm was born on Sept. 28,
1906, in the small Bavarian town of Kit-
zmgen, into a prosperous family of
vintners (Erich Fromm, the psycho
analyst and author, was a cousin). Mr.
Fromm played four-hand piano duets
with his brother Herbert as a child and
attended the contemporary-music fes
tivals at Donaueschmgen between 1921
and iy2li. He- later said his first encoun
ter wuh Stravinsky's "Sacre du Prm-
temps" in Frankfurt in 1927 "made a
20th-century man of me."
Eventually, Mr. Fromm decided to
enter the family business, but even in
the iy30'she intended to devote himself
to the patronage of modern music.
Forced to emigrate in 193h, he arrived
in this country on the Fourth of July,
married that year and opened Ihe
Great Lakes Wine Company in 1940. He
became a citizen in 1944, but was well-
known for his impenetrable German
accent all his life.
By 1952. Mr. Fromm felt ready to
carry out his musical plans, and began
his foundation in Chicago. From the
first, he espoused a serious, even Ger
manic, ideal of elite musical culture.
His tastes had been formed during the
great early years of modernism, and
although he deliberately broadened Ihe
stylistic range of music he supported in
later years, he never abandoned his
principle that great art was a rarefied
experience, and that his nurturing
should be devoted to work thai truly
needed it.
"Wo must realise that serious an
does not appeal to everybody." he
wrote in The New York Times in 1978.
"It never did and it never will. It is up
to us to create stimulants to cultural
development and to foster an environ
ment !hat is friendly to creative pur
suits We can do this best not by trying
to bring serious art to more people but
by educating a more knowledgeable
and more devoted minority of art pa
trons. We must look to them as a nu
cleus from which a healthy culture can
gruw."
Advice Krom Compofccr*
A modest man who once described
himself as "a footnote in musical histo
ry." Mr. Fromm surrounded himself
with com|X)scr advisers. At first, he
relied primarily on such committed
modernists as Milton Babbitt, Elliott
Carter and Gunther Schuller.
But twice, Mr. Fromm made deci
sive efforts 10 diversify hU commit
ments. In 1972. he withdrew his support
from Perspectives of New Music. •
Princeton-based journal he felt had be-'
come loo closely identified with the
Scnalist position. And in 1983, he pub
licly questioned the narrowness of Mr.
Schuller's programming at the Tangle-
wood Contemporary Music Festival
(or "Fromm week"), withdrawing his
support. Mr. Schuller. who resigned a
year later on other issues, complained
bitterly that Mr. Fromm was "now op
posing everything he ever stood for."
Undaunted, Mr. Fromm reorganized
his foundation, dividing it into three
geographical areas and signing on nine
new composers as advisers to ensure a
wider range of commissions. He also
moved his summer festival to Aspen,
Colo., and entitled Ihe first scries of
concerts there in 1984 "Musical Plural
ism in the 1980's."
Mr Fromm's annual financing could
never match that of the National En
dowment or the Rockefeller Founda
tion. But its steady concentration on
contemporary music lent it an influ
ence far beyond its means. In the
1950's, Ihe foundation's annual budget
was around $50,000 By the BO's, that
figure had risen to $150,000, although it
varied from year to year and he was
loath to provide exact totals. By now.
nearly 200 composers have received
commissions, amounting to an honor,
roll of 20th-century American classical
music.
Received Many Honors
Through all the shifts of musical
fashion, Mr. Fromm held (rue to his
faith in the vitality and importance of
Ihc music of our time. In one of the
many speeches and articles he was
asked for in his later years. Mr.
Fromm wrote in 1979: "I am con
vinced thai our century will eventually
prove to be one of the great musical
centuries. If we choose to ignore what
is happening in our midst, it is exclu
sively our loss."
In addition to his foundation, Mr.
Fromm served at various limes as an
overseer of the Boston Symphony and a
leader of several Chicago charities. His
many honors included honorary doc
torates from ihc New England Conser
vatory and Ihc University of Cincin
nati, the Golden liuion Award from Ihc
American Symphony Orchestra
League und awards from the Univvr-
sity of Chicago, the Peabody Institute
and the American Music Center.
Mr. Fromm is survived by his wife,
Erika, a psychologist; a daughter,
Joan Greenstone, of Chicago; (wo
grandsons, Michael and Daniel, and his
brothers Alfred, of San Francisco, and
Herbert, of Brookline, Mass. .
New York Times
July 6, 1987.
New American music: The living legacy
I of Paul Fromm
By John von Rhem
Musecntoc
Paul Fromm once described
himself as "a footnote in
musical history." He was
being far too modest When
the annals of the classical musk
fife of America in the second half
of the century are drawn up, this
remarkable patron of the arts, who
died in Chicago last week at age 80
aftei a series of heart attacks,
surely will rate a chapter.
To the beleaguered American
composer, faced with an indifferent
musical Establishment on one hand
and a confused, sometimes hostile,
concert public on the other,
Fromm represented more than a
benefactor. He was a fervent cham
pion of everything they stood for, a
means of liberating their creative
energies, a super- impresario who
used his power and influence to se
cure more and better performances
of contemporary classical music.
Setting a personal example of
passionate commitment to new
American works through the activi
ties of his Fromm Musk Founda
tion, Fromm sought to shake our
leading musical institutions out of
then narrow allegiance to dead
composers. Once that was
achieved, Fromm argued, these in
stitutions could once again "savor
tbei. roles as witnesses to musk in
the making,* and our composers
would regain the central position
thei- 18th and 19th Century Euro
pean predecessors had occupied in
the musical life of their societies.
"A composer should not feel as
though he is working in a vacu
um,' Fromm said in 1982, on the
occasion of his 75th birthday and
the foundation's 30th anniversary.
"A composer needs to be a pan of
the music community." Right up
to his death, Fromm labored
tirelessly to make it happen.
Although it is unlikely that his
crusade will drastically alter the di
rection or assumptions of our per
former-dominated musical culture
in the near future, his efforts have
for more than three decades signifi
cantly broadened the repertory of
new American works. And they
have helped the serious listening
public establish a closer bond with
the important musical thought of
our time.
At a special tribute to Fromm
last February in Mandel Hall, the
Chicago composer Ralph Shapey
(a recipient of several Fromm
commissions) called him "the ,
Esterhazy of the 20th Century." a
reference to Haydn's patron. And
Shulamit Ran, another Chicago
composer, (aid that Fromm's
kfework "is a living testimony to
the fact thai one person singlehan-
dedly can make a difference."
True enough. The Chicago wine
merchant and arts patron was the
most active and important private
patron of new music in this coun
try. To date the Fromm Music
Foundation, which Fromm estab
lished in 1952 at Harvard Universi
ty and which he co-directed until
his death, has commissioned works
from nearly 200 composers, a veri
table "Who'i Who" of new Ameri
can music. |
These include such giants of con
temporary composition as Elbott
Carter, Milton Babbin and Roger
Sessions, and man) less celebrated
though no Jess dedicated, musi- j
cians Fromm was parucularty ITH
terested in assisting young un- .
known composers who had
something uniquely their own to
Appreciation
express.
Although the Fromm Founda
tion's annual budget is modest by
comparison with those of the Na
tional Endowment or the Rockefel
ler Foundation (in recent years it
has varied between $120,000 and
$150,000), its influence has reached
far beyond its means It is difficult,
in fact, to think of a deserving
American composer of the past 35
years who has not benefited from
Fromm's patronage.
Among the many Fromm
Foundation commissions are Car
ter's Double Concerto for Harpsi
chord and Piano, Babbitt's "Vision
and Prayer"; Lukas Foss' "Echoi";
Shapey's "Songs of Ecstasy";
Charles Wuorinen's Violin Concer
to; and George Rochberg"» "Music
for the Magic Theater.'' The list is
long and impressive.
But as Fromm readily conceded,
commissioning the music was al
ways the easy pan: The major
hurdles came in celling the music
played and heard Fortunately, a
loose network of new music per
formance groups has arisen across
the country, and the foundation
takes pains to see that after a wor
thy new piece is played in, say,
Chicago or New York, it will be
taken up by other ensembles and
eventually become pan of the ac
tive repertory.
From the first, Fromm relied on
the advice of such established East
Coast academic composers as Bab-
bin, Carter and Schuller. (Schuller
for many years served as a co-di
rector of the Fromm Foundation
and director of the Tanglrwood
Music Festival ) But in 1983
Fromm questioned the narrowness
of programming ai the Tanglewoorl
Contemporary Music Festival (or
"Fromm Week"), withdrawing his
support. Schullei bitterly de
nounced Fromm's decision, saying
thai the patron was "now opposing
everything he ever stood for.
Fromm defended his position,
claiming that the festival had be
come too monolithic, narrow and
exclusive in its esthetic outlook.
With that he restructured the
foundation in such a way as to
make it more open to nonacadem-
k, more experimental styles in
cluding Minimalism, electronic and
theater musk It was a courageous,
even controversial, stance, but one
that reflected the patron's deep
commitment to encouraging thr
musical diversity he fell mirrored
today's pluralistic society
Although Harvard is the Fromm
Foundation's official residence, for
years its working address has been
an austere warehouse at 1028 W.
Van Burcn St thai is the home of
fice of the Greal Lakes Wine Co ,
which Fromm began in 1940 He
later sold the business but for the
past five years stayed on as consul
tant, retaining his office and secre
tary There, surrounded by dusty
cases of wine and bundles of music
manuscripts, Fromm held court in
his thick German accent, making
pronouncements on baseball (an
other of Fromm's passions) and
the crisis of American high culture.
He grew up in a wealthy Jewish
home before fleeing Hitler's Ger
many, but he lived his entire life
without ostentation believing that
respect for humanistic values was
far more important than wealth
Through his foundation he gave
away millions of dollars that could
have bought him lakefrom apart
ments, big can and other symbols
of material success Instead, he
chose to live his modest version ot
the good life in Hyde Park, where
his widow Enka, a distinguished
psychologist, pursues her career at
the University of ChkafO.
The last time I spoke with
Frumm w*s IB April it a piano re
cital in Mandel Hall. I used the in
termission to sound him out on
my choices for a Tribune article I
was preparing on Irving composers
who would be remembered 100
yean hence. He listened carefully
to what I had to say, beaming his
approval at some of my choices,
vigorously disagreeing with others.
Fromm had his own convictions
about music, and he voiced them
with the implacable moral authori
ty of an ancient rabbi dispensing
God's law to a terrified dock. 1 will
miss our musical skull sessions.
Over the years Fromm saw wide
pendulum swings of musical fash
ion, but he ne%er Ion his allegiance
to the time-honored virtues of ar
tistic quality and originality. Nor
did he set himself up as a supreme
arbiter of masterpieces. "I do not
try to be the custodian of posteri
ty," he once declared
He nonetheless carried his advo
cacy of new music throughout the
nation, delivering speeches and
writing articles on contemporary
music. His many honors included
honorary doctorates and awards
from the American Symphony Or
chestra League, Chicago Junior
Assn. of Commerce and Industry,
American Composers .Alliance and
the U. of C. music department.
Despite all this attention, Fromm
harbored no illusions about the im
pact he might have on the increas
ingly market -oriented music indus
try. "The influence of any
foundation must be marginal," he
once said. "We must realize that
serious art does not appeal to
everybody."
What is needed instead, he
added, was to foster an environ
ment that is friendly to creative
pursuits. "We can do this best not
by trying to bring serious art to
more people, but by educating a
more knowledgeable and demoted
minority of art patrons. We must
look to them as a nucleus from
which a healthy culture can grow."
What directions will the Fromm
Foundation— in so many ways an
extension of its founder's tastes and
philosophy— assume without
Fromm around to sponsor or guide
its activities? Composer Earte
Brown, a Fromm Foundation di
rector, will be primarily responsible
for its continuance. The commis
sions Fromm paid for before his
death no doubt will be carried out
Beyond that, however, lie many
question marks that composers all
over the nation must be contem
plating with fear and trembling.
For the death of the Fromm
Foundation would be urJbrtunate,
but the death of _ the kind of un
compromising vision and high cul
tural idealism that its founder
stood for would be a tragedy be
yond measure.
Chicago Tribune
July 9, 1987
201
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INDEX — Alfred Fromm
203
Adler, Kurt Herbert, 94, 99-100,
141, 149-161
Alioto, Mayor Joseph, 99
Anderson, Brother Mel, 86-88
Boley, David, 101-104
boutique wineries, 106
Bronfman, Samuel, 54, 79-82,
102-104
Brown Bag luncheons, 32
California State University at
San Francisco, 78
Christian Brothers Winery, 25,
80, 101-103
Church, Frank, 61, 62
coolers, wine, 107
Dennis, Professor John, 133
de Rothschild, Baron Evelyne ,
54, 63, 64
Fromm, Max (father of Alfred),
3, 9, 15, 17, 20, 21
Fromm, Music Foundation at
Harvard University, 8
Fromm, N. Company, Kitzingen,
Germany, 1, 4, 12, 16
Fromm, Nathan, 1
Fromm, Norman, 8, 89-92
Fromm, Paul, 8, 92, 93, 104
Fromm and Sichel Company, 84, 102
Geballe, Frances, 44
Gianinni, A. P. , 70
Goldman, Richard, 44
Goldstein, Mark, 50
Goldyne, Joseph, 45-50
Hoadley, Walter, 68
Inouye, Senator Daniel, 60
Israeli wine exports, 54
Feinstein, Dianne, 66, 67
Ferrogiaro, Fred, 69, 103
Fortgang, Helaine, 48, 49
Friends of the Fromm Institute,
135
Fromer, Seymour, 43, 44
Fromm, Erich, 11, 12
Fromm, Hanna, 19-24, 28, 38-39
42, 89, 98, 110, 116-149
Fromm, Herbert, 6, 7, 89
Froram Institute for Lifelong
Learning, Hebrew University,
Jerusalem, 38-41
Fromm Institute for Lifelong
Learning, University of
San Francisco, 28-37,
130-137
Jewish Community Museum,
San Francisco, 44-52
Jewish Welfare Federation, 44,
57-59
Joos, Kurt, 118
Judah Magnes Memorial Museum,
43, 44
Kaye, Danny, 61
Klemig, Dr. Roland, 46
Koret Library, 35, 36
Koshland, Daniel, 43-45
204
lifelong learning, 28-41, ISO-
IS?
Lurie, Brian, 44, 145, 158
Maier, Peter, 66
Masson, Paul, vineyards, 89-90,
138-140
McCall, Governor Thomas, 60
McEwen, Terence, 100
Meyers, Otto, 10
Mishkin, Millie, 30, 130
Moldaw, Stuart family, 47
Music in the Vineyards, 89-91,
138-140
Wine Marketing Center, University
of San Francisco, 71-77
Wine Museum of San Francisco,
83, 84
Wise, Rabbi Stephen, 17, 18
Yarden wine, 55
Newton, Dr. Su Hua, 71-73
Opera Association,
San Francisco, 99-100,
149-161
Osher, Bernard, 44
Picker-Linz Importers, Inc.,
69, 101, 103
Saitowitz, Stanley, 50
Salkind, Milton, 93
San Francisco Conservatory of
Music
Scenes From Our Lives, 35
Seagram Museum, Waterloo,
Ontario, Canada, 83, 84
Seagrams [Distillers Corporation-
Seagrams Limited] , 82, 103
Shapiro, Bill, 65
Sichel, Franz, 79, 83, 86,
102-105
Skidmore, Owings, and Merrill, 50
Steinberg, William, 143
Swig, Ben, 66
205
Elaine Dorfman
Graduate of California State University at Hayward, B.A. in
Sociology; Lone Mountain College M.A. in Sociology /with
Communications .
Wrote advertising copy for theater agency in San Francisco
and wrote a monthly investigative column for a Richmond,
California newspaper.
Taught Sociology at Diablo Valley College, Pleasant Hill;
culture and history of Chinese cooking in the Martinez
Recreation Department; business communication, business law,
and business English at Heald College, Walnut Creek.
Instructor in oral history classes for the Peralta Community College
District at Vista College, Berkeley. Directs oral history program
for the Western Jewish History Center, Judah Magnes Memorial
Museum, Berkeley. Interviewer-editor for the Regional Oral
History Office, University of California, Berkeley, in the
Jewish Community Leaders series and areas of business and
education.
206
CAROLINE CRAWFORD
Native Californian; Stanford University, B.A., in
political science. University of Geneva, certificate in
international law. San Francisco State University, M.A. in
linguistics. Royal College of Musicians (London), degree in
organ performance.
Press officer for San Francisco Opera, 1973-1979.
Co-Director for Peace Corps (Eastern Caribbean), 1980-1983.
Music reviewer for Peninsula Times Tribune. 1983-1988.
Interviewer-editor in Regional Oral History Office since 1985
207
PART TWO: MARKETING CALIFORNIA WINE AND BRANDY
Regional Oral History Office
The Bancroft Library
University of California
Berkeley, California
The Wine Spectator California Winemen Oral History Series
Alfred Fronnn
MARKETING CALIFORNIA WINE AND BRANDY
With an Introduction by
Leon D. Adams
An Interview Conducted by
Ruth Teiser
in 1984
Copyright (c) 1984 by The Regents of the University of California
All uses of this manuscript are covered by a legal
agreement between the University of California and
Alfred Fromm dated October 2, 1984. The manuscript is
thereby made available for research purposes. All
literary rights in the manuscript, including the right
to publish, are reserved to The Bancroft Library of
the University of California Berkeley. No part of the
manuscript may be quoted for publication without the
written permission of the Director of The Bancroft
Library of the University of California at Berkeley.
Requests for permission to quote for publication
should be addressed to the Regional Oral History Office,
486 Library, and should include identification of the
specific passages to be quoted, anticipated use of the
passages, and identification of the user. The legal
agreement with Alfred Fromm required that he be
notified of the request and allowed thirty days in
which to respond.
It is recommened that this oral history be cited
as follows :
Alfred Fromm, "Marketing California Wine
and Brandy," an oral history conducted
1984 by Ruth Teiser, Regional Oral History
Office, The Bancroft Library, University
of California, 1984.
Copy No.
>
CONTENTS — Alfred Fromm
PREFACE
INTRODUCTION by Leon D. Adams iv
INTERVIEW HISTORY vi
I GERMANY 1905-1936
The Firm of N. Fromm
Apprenticeship and Studies, 1920-1924
Selling Wine for N. Fromm, 1924-1936 2
First Travels in the United States
II THE UNITED STATES SINCE 1936 8
Partnership in Picker-Linz, New York 8
Association with the Christian Brothers, 1937-1983 10
Joining Efforts With The Brothers
Beginning to Market Christian Brothers Wines
The World War II Years *•**
American Wine in the Latter 1940s
Entering the Brandy Market, 1943
Creating an Advanced Still ^
Agreement with Seagram's, 1954 20
Business Principles
Fromm and Sichel, Successors to Picker-Linz, 1945 22
Association with Paul Masson
President, 1944-1955 24
Planting Vineyards in the Salinas Valley 26
Associatioc With the Christian Brothers, Continued 28
Selling Christian Brothers Wines 28
The Vie-Del Company 29
St. Regis Vineyards 30
Growth of Christian Brothers 30
The California Brandy Business 32
Styles of Brandy
Sale of Fromm and Sichel to the Christian Brothers, 1983 Jt>
Key Men at Christian Brothers 37
The Wine Museum of San Francisco, 1974-1984 38
Industry Organizations
III APPENDIX
Biographical Information ^5
Alfred Fronnn, Who's Who in America. 1982-1983 46
"100 million empty glasses," a 1957 speech by Alfred Fromm 47
Purchase of Fromm & Sichel by Mont La Salle Vineyards, 51
September, 1983
IV INDEX 53
>
PREFACE
The California wine industry oral history series, a project of the
Regional Oral History Office, was initiated in 1969 through the action and
with the financing of the Wine Advisory Board, a state marketing order
organization which ceased operation in 1975. In 1983 it was reinstituted as
The Wine Spectator California Winemen Oral History Series with donations from
The Wine Spectator California Scholarship Foundation. The selection of those
to be interviewed is made by a committee consisting of James D. Hart, director
of The Bancroft Library, University of California, Berkeley; John A. De Luca,
president of the Wine Institute, the statewide winery organization; Maynard
A. Amerine, Emeritus Professor of Viticulture and Enology, University of
California, Davis; the chairman of the board of directors of the Wine
Institute, who is elected annually; Ruth Teiser, series project director, and
Marvin R. Shanken, trustee of The Wine Spectator California Scholarship
Foundation.
The purpose of the series is to record and preserve information on
California grape growing and wine making that has existed only in the memories
of wine men. In some cases their recollections go back to the early years of
this century, before Prohibition. These recollections are of particular value
because the Prohibition period saw the disruption of not only the industry
itself but also the orderly recording and preservation of records of its
activities. Little has been written about the industry from late in the last
century until Repeal. There is a real paucity of information on the
Prohibition years (1920-1933) , although some commercial wine making did
continue under supervision of the Prohibition Department. The material in
this series on that period, as well as the discussion of the remarkable
development of the wine industry in subsequent years (as yet treated
analytically in few writings) will be of aid to historians. Of particular
value is the fact that frequently several individuals have discussed the same
subjects and events or expressed opinions on the same ideas, each from his
own point of view.
Research underlying the interviews has been conducted principally in
the University libraries at Berkeley and Davis, the California State Library,
and in the library of the Wine Institute, which has made its collection of in
many cases unique materials readily available for the purpose.
Three master indices for the entire series are being prepared, one of
general subjects, one of wines, one of grapes by variety. These will be
available to researchers at the conclusion of the series in the Regional Oral
History Office and at the library of the Wine Institute.
ii
The Regional Oral History Office was established to tape record
autobiographical interviews with persons who have contributed significantly
to recent California history. The office is headed by Willa K. Baum and is
under the administrative supervision of James D. Hart, the director of
The Bancroft Library.
Ruth Teiser
Project Director
The Wine Spectator California
Winemen Oral History Series
10 September 1984
Regional Oral History Office
486 The Bancroft Library
University of California, Berkeley
iii
CALIFORNIA WINE INDUSTRY INTERVIEWS
Interviews Completed by 1984
Leon D. Adams Revitalizing the California Wine Industry 1974
Maynard A. Amerine The University of California and the State's
Industry 1971
Philo Biane Vine Making in Southern California and Recollections of Fruit
Industries. Inc. 1972
Burke H. Critchfield, Carl F. Wente, and Andrew G. Frericks The California
Vine Industry During the Depression 1972
William V. Cruess A Half Century of Food and Vine Technology 1967
Alfred Fromm Marketing California Wine and Brandy 1984
Maynard A. Joslyn A Technologist Views the California Wine Industry 1974
Horace 0. Lanza and Harry Baccigaluppi California Grape Products and
Other Wine Enterprises 1971
Louis M. Martini and Louis P. Martini Winemakers of the Napa Valley 1973
Louis P. Martini A Family Vinery and the California Vine Industry 1984
Otto E. Meyer California Premium Vines and Brandy 1973
Harold P. Olmo Plant Genetics and New Grape Varieties 1976
Antonio Perelli-Minetti A Life in Vine Making 1975
Louis A. Petri The Petri Family in the Vine Industry 1971
Jefferson E. Peyser The Law and the California Vine Industry 1974
Lucius Powers The Fresno Area and the California Vine Industry 1974
Victor Repetto and Sydney J. Block Perspectives on California Vines 1976
Edmund A. Rossi Italian Swiss Colony and the Wine Industry 1971
A. Setrakian A Leader of the San Joaquin Valley Grape Industry 1977
Andre* Tchelistchef f Grapes, Vine, and. Ecology 1983
Brother Timothy The Christian Brothers as Winemakers 1974
Ernest A. Wente Wine Making in the Livermore Valley 1971
Albert J. Winkler ViticulturaZ Research at UC Davis (2922 - 2972) 1973
iv
INTRODUCTION
Alfred Fromm's interview is a fascinating narrative of
the contributions by an emigre German expert in premium vine
marketing to the post-Repeal advancement of California's grape
and vine industry. Historians of the industry and of its
important by-product — brandy — vill find explanations in his
interview of some hithertoo little-understood aspects of the
industry's progress since the late 1930's.
What his modest recital does not fully explain, is the
part played by the late Samuel Bronfman, who headed the
vorldvide Seagram vine and spirits empire, in enabling Fromm
and his associates to build Paul Masson Vineyards and The
Christian Brothers into major factors in the industry.
In 1943 during the Second World War, vhen the U.S.
government restricted vhiskey production, Bronfman had
Seagrams purchase the Mt. Tivy vinery in the San Joaquin
Valley, and also the then-small Masson mountain vinery in
Saratoga, from Martin Ray. Bronfman's purpose vas to market
brandy made at Mt. Tivy under the premium-quality name of Paul
Masson. When that plan vas dropped, Seagrams sold Mt. Tivy to
The Christian Brothers, and part ovnership of the Paul Masson
vineyard and vinery to the partnership of Fromm and Franz Sichel.
I have knovn Alfred Fromm since 1938, vhen, while still
residing in New York, he first visited me and my then-
associates at the Wine Institute offices in San Francisco. I
later met his father and his brother Norman, and vas privileged
to witness each stage of their achievement, vith brother-in-
law Otto Meyer, in building Paul Masson into one of the
nation's leading vineries. Visiting Brother John and Brother
Timothy at the Brothers' vinery in Napa County, I also
observed the renaming, inspired by Fromm, of their vines from
"Mont La Salle" to "The Christian Brothers." Brother John
shared Fromm's long-held viev that vines of different years
should be blended in order to provide consumers vith uniform
flavor year after year. This is vhy the Brothers and Paul
Masson Vineyards resisted for many years and until quite
recently, the trend tovard vintage labeling of premium
California vines.
The Christian Brothers Wine Museum (The Wine Museum of
San Francisco), established in 1974 by Alfred Fromm, vas an
unselfish effort to acquaint Americans vith the noble cultural
history of wine. He made valiant efforts to preserve the
Museum until 1984, when, after the sale of Iromm and Sichel,
Seagrams decided to move the Museum to their headquarters
in Ontario, Canada.
Leon D. Adams
Author of The Wines of America
27 August 1984
Sausalito, California
INTERVIEW HISTORY
Alfred Fromm was interviewed on two successive mornings,
May 3 and May 4, 1984, at his office at 655 Beach Street in
San Francisco, shortly before the building was taken over by
Seagrams, which, as he explained in the interview, had pur
chased it the previous year. Final conferences on the
interview and the photographs to illustrate it were held in
his new office at 655 Montgomery Street in San Francisco.
Mr. Fromm's characteristic mildness and firmness are
reflected in the interviews. A courtly man with the manners
as well as the speech rhythms of his native land, he spoke
with deliberation but without hesitation. His life as a
highly successful salesman of wines and brandy in the United
States was built upon the principles instilled in him during
his early years with his family firm in Germany, principles
which he articulated in the interview.
Leaving Germany during the Hitler regime, he chose the
United States because of the freedom here, as he explained,
and that freedom, combined with his diligence and marketing
ability, created his success. Together with Franz Sichel,
whom he had known in Germany and met again in the United
States through Samuel Bronfman of Seagrams, he created the
firm of Fromm and Sichel in 1945 as successor to Picker-Linz,
through which he had represented The Christian Brothers since
1937. His part in the history of the development of The
Christian Brothers' wines and brandy is told here, as well as
the part played by his brother-in-law, Otto Meyer. Their
part in the rehabilitation of the Paul Masson winery is also
discussed here. It was during their leadership of Masson
that the development of the Salinas Valley as a vineyard
district began, when Masson and Mirassou, both looking for
land beyond Santa Clara County, joined forces to investigate
the potentialities of Monterey County.
N
vii
The initial interview transcript required little
editing. Mr. Fromm corrected some minor errors and added a
number of dates from his records. He preferred the spelling
Seagram's, with an apostrophe.
Related oral history interviews in this series are those
of Otto E. Meyer, CALIFORNIA PREMIUM WINES AND BRANDY,
completed in 1973, and Brother Timothy, THE CHRISTIAN
BROTHERS AS WINEMAKERS, completed in 1974.
Ruth Teiser
Interviewer-Editor
10 September 1984
Regional Oral History Office
486 The Bancroft Library
University of California at Berkeley
I GERMANY 1905-1936
[Interview 1: May 3, 1984]##
The Firm of N. Fromm
Fromm: The firm of N. Fromm was started by my great-grandfather, Nathan
Fromm. He was a schoolteacher in a small wine village, and I'm
told — I didn't know him — that he had eleven children. The salary
of a schoolteacher in those days was really minimal, and there
never was enough money to feed and clothe the children and buy
them shoes. So my great-grandfather then started to help some of
the winegrowers in this small wine village and advised them how to
make better wines as he was a more educated man, and he taught them
about sanitation and so on.
As a result these vintners came up with a better product.
They were not very flush with money either, and they paid him very
often by giving him some wine as his fee.
So then he started to sell the wine and gradually built up a
little business. And after some years my great-grandfather decided
he should go into the wine business because he could not make a
living as a teacher, that he would buy the wines from those
vintners he knew in the Franconia district of Germany. It became
after a little while quite a nice business. He traveled within
Bavaria (because the Franconia wine district is in Bavaria). He
died, I understand, when he was in his sixties, and then my
grandfather took over.
By that time the family was already in the wine business. My
grandfather, Josef Fronrn, developed the business further. He died
very young, when he was in his early forties, and I did not know him
either. Then my father, Max Fromm, who was thirteen years old when
his father died, took over and left school, because someone had to
make a living. He was an unusually capable man and developed later
Fronm: on into one of the best-known wine tasters in Germany, and became
then an adviser to the government, and over the years made the firm
of N. Fromm one of the leading firms in Germany.
The firm was at that time in Kitzingen on the River Main where
there were very many small wine firms, but our firm of N. Fromm was
the largest there.
Apprenticeship and Studies. 1920-1924
Fromm: When I was fifteen years old 1 had graduated from middle high
school. I was apprenticed to a large wine firm, Feist and Reinach,
in Bingen-on-the-Rhine, and I served a three-year apprenticeship.
And, as it was in those days, my father had to pay for my education
at this wine firm. But you really learned the wine business right
from the ground up, starting with the vineyards and moving into the
cellars. You learn an awful lot between fifteen and eighteen that
you don't learn later on. If you are an apprentice in Germany, you
are not nothing; you are less than nothing, [laughs]
But it was very good training. In the winter you had to
be in the office at six o'clock in the morning and stoking the fire
for the office, and later on at eleven o'clock go out and get the
sausages and the bread for the people for their second breakfast.
But I really learned the wine business.
The owner of the firm where I was apprenticed was one of the
outstanding men in the wine industry. His name was Joseph Guembel.
After I was there for two years, he took me into the wine tasting
room. There was every day a wine tasting between twelve and one.
I arranged the glasses and made notes for him, and then he said,
"Try this," and "Try that." I learned from Herr Guembel how to
taste and evaluate wine. He started to like me, and I was very
much interested. In fact, I never wanted to be in any other
business since I was a young kid, than the wine business. And I
learned an awful lot. When I was eighteen years old, I thought I
knew a great deal about German wine. But you know, when you are
very young you don't know how many things you don* t know.
Selling Wine for 1L-. Fromm. 1924-1936
Fromm: So after I was through with my apprenticeship I went to the
Weinbau-Schule, which was an agricultural college in Geisenheim,
>
Fromm: which in those days was the leading viticultural school in Germany,
and stayed there for about a year, taking various courses in wine
chemistry, wine treatment, and so on.
After that — by that time I was nineteen years old — I joined
our firm in Kitzingen. My father then insisted that after I had
worked another year in the cellars that I go out and be conversant
with the selling business of wine, because the marketing of wine
was always a problem for everyone.
So I started to travel extensively in Germany when I was
twenty, twenty-one, twenty-two years old, and I worked very, very
hard. My father insisted that I only call on new customers. I was
paid commission, but only half of what regular salesmen were paid,
because that was a German educational idea, that a son during his
learning period should not make as much as everyone else, but I
made good money anyhow. [laughing]
When I was twenty-three, twenty-four years, I had already in
my travels six or eight young men with me whom I trained and who
became good salesmen afterwards.
Teiser: To whom did you sell?
Fromm: We sold mostly to consumers.
Teiser: Direct?
Fromm: Direct. The wine business in those days in Germany was that way.
You called on consumers, and it was a tough job because very many
people didn't want to see you. But somehow I managed to do quite
well.
In 1924 our firm started to go into the export business, and I
traveled very extensively then in the export business and became
director of exports when I was twenty-five years of age. I
traveled in England, in Belgium, in Holland, and particularly up in
the northern states, in Denmark, Sweden, Finland, and Norway.
First Travels in the United States
Fromm: We were advised by our American agents that Prohibition would be
repealed in the United States, which finally took place on December
5, 1933. As 1 was the oldest son, I was sent here to build a
market. (I had a younger brother who was in the business, too,
4
Fromm: Paul, who's now in the import wine business in Chicago) On
December 4, I arrived in New York, and I never have seen such
excitement.
t
Teiser: Would you describe it?
Fromm: I never had been in such a large city as New York City. The people
were all celebrating, and there were a lot of people who were drunk
because it was the first time they could buy legally alcohol. On
the other hand, the Depression was still on, and the repeal of
Prohibition gave the people a great moral lift. They felt things
would get better, so they took it as a good omen that times would
improve, which fortunately they did. But in those days there was a
tremendous amount of unemployment and very great hardships to which
most of the people were not accustomed.
I went to our agents, Picker-Linz importers in New York, and
worked with them because none of the partners in the firm had
anything to do with wine before. They had ran other businesses,
and I was the only one who knew something about wine. And then I
traveled very extensively throughout the United States. I had a
little Ford car and I went from one end to the other, from north to
south, from east to west. I think I have been in every city of
fifty or a hundred thousand at that time existing in the United
States.
It was very, very difficult then because American people were
not used to drink wine, and it was mostly an upper class that knew
a little about wine, that had traveled to Europe before. But I
managed to sell quite a bit and built a net of distributors.
The most interesting experience I had was when I went in
January of 1934 to Los Angeles, because I had heard there were many
movie stars who made a tremendous amount of money, and there were
no licenses yet at that time. I had some connections to Mr. Carl
Laemmle, who was head of Universal Pictures, and he gave me some
recommendations. I called on some of the big movie stars, and I
was amazed how well they received me. They gave me very nice
orders for expensive wines. In those days we had those fabulous
1921 wines. You could get sixty or ninety dollars a case — for
ninety dollars you got a Schloss Johannisberg '21 Auslese, and it
was a tremendous price.
Then I wanted to call on William Randolph Hearst. I called
him from my hotel in Los Angeles. He didn't talk to me, and his
secretary told me they would come back to me and let me know if Mr.
Hearst could see me. What I didn't know was that they were
>
Fromm: checking up on me, who I was, because, the idea that someone could
think I might be a gangster or bootlegger never occurred to me.
[laughter]
Teiser: Let me interrupt you. You said somebody could be a gangster.
There was a good deal of opprobrium, was there not, about any wine
man, that carried over from Prohibition?
Fromm: Yes.
Teiser: Did you feel it?
Fromm: Yes, I did, and I was very much upset by it, because when people
talked about wine, they said we are in the booze business, and that
hurt my feelings very much, because the wine business in Europe was
always a highly respected business and really had nothing to do
with hard liquor. I hardly knew any hard liquor. When I came to
this country for the first time I tasted American whiskey and
Scotch whiskey because I never before had an opportunity to do
that. At home we had some German brandy that was always considered
good for your health, and you drank it once in a while. But as
children we never got any hard liquor. But we always got a little
wine with dinner. So I grew up with wine, and I must say until
today — I am seventy-nine years old — I have drunk wine every day. I
don't touch anything during the day, but I have half a bottle of
wine for my dinner, and I consider this better than vitamins or
Valium.
When I called on Mr. Hearst, he gave me orders for some
rare, immensely expensive wine, the very finest that was made in
Germany. Hesitatingly, I said to Mr. Hearst, "You know, Mr.
Hearst, that wine sells for three hundred dollars a case." I
have never seen or tasted anything like it since then.
-
Teiser: What was it?
Fromm: Nineteen eleven Steinberger Kabinett. Trockenbeerenauslese from the
Prussian domain in Eberbach. It was marked "Jahrhundert Wein" by
the Prussian government and it really was.
Then I offered him some other very outstanding 1920 and 1921
Rheingau wines and Franconia wines, and he gave me an order for
thirty cases or so. It amounted to over five thousand dollars,
which in those days was an enormous amount of money.
Teiser: Where did you meet him?
Fromm: Mr. Hearst visited with us when he was in Bad Nauheim, a very well
known health spa. There was a Profesor Groedel whom he consulted,
Fromm: and then after he felt better he wanted to make a few excursions,
and he came to Bingen, which was not very far, and visited our
winery and said to my father, "When your son comes over to America,
have him call on me." Of course, we took this for a regular
invitation and didn't know that this was often just a polite saying
like "Let us have lunch together sometime."
Teiser: Where here did you meet him? In San Francisco?
Fromm: No. I was invited to San Simeon. He sent his plane. I was
received by Marion Davies, who was a very charming and nice lady.
I was a young, inexperienced man, and she was very kind to me. I
was introduced to a lot of people, many of them famous movie
stars, and other big people but I never had heard their names
before, so it didn't make any difference. [laughing] But in those
days a young European, who was in the wine business, was something
new for better educated people, or people who had traveled widely.
So apparently I filled the bill.
Teiser: Did you go to San Simeon other times also?
Fromm: No.
I got some other recommendations from them. Some of the most
famous movie stars gave me very nice orders. In those days if you
paid for a case of wine fifty, sixty or ninety dollars, it was a
big price. So I sent these orders to Germany, and I spent
. altogether six months in the United States and then went back.
Teiser: Were you in Northern California?
Fromm: Yes.
Teiser: Did people in San Francisco buy the same way?
Fromm: Being more conservative, they didn't buy this way, but I called on
Mr. Paul Verdier, who was the president and owner, I believe, of
the City of Paris. A Frenchman. Quite well known, quite well
versed in wines. He gave me a very nice order.
We did some good business in the U.S.A. and actually between
1933 and 1936 my own sales amounted to almost 26 percent of the
wine imports from Germany. Of course, the total business was small
in those days, but they were all good wines, because I could see
right from the beginning that the only chance German wines would
have would be to sell the very best, and address myself to a
special group of consumers; it was not for the average man who
didn't drink wine and drank whiskey or beer.
Teiser: That certainly gave you a good idea of the United States, then.
Fromm: Yes.
Teiser: At that time did you like it veil enough to think you might ever
come back here?
Fromm: The fact is at that time the Nazis were already in power, and our
family is Jewish, so it was always a consideration: should one
stay, could one stay in Germany or not? After my first visit to
the United States I made up my mind this is the place I wanted to
live. I had traveled in England, and I liked it very much there.
But I loved the freedom here and the chances offered. If you did
the right thing, you really were on your own, something which to a
German was entirely new.
So I came back by the middle of 1934 to Germany, and I was
traveling in the European countries for the export of our wines,
where we did quite well. I think we sold to about forty foreign
countries altogether, our German wines.
The next year again I went to America and spent again in '35
and '36 six months each year traveling and completing a net of
distributors. I got acquainted with a lot of very good people.
They were very kind to me, and I really felt it was the place I
wanted to live.
II THE UNITED STATES SINCE 1936
Partnersip in Picker-Linz. New Yorl
Fromm: By 1936 the Nazi situation looked very threatening, and I decided
that we had to get out of Germany. I was the first one of our
family to come to the United States. I got married in 1936 to a
girl that I had courted since she was sixteen years old, Hanna
Gruenbaum. We are married now forty-eight years and we are still
very happy.
Teiser: You came to New York first?
Fromm: Yes. We came to New York. Then the firm of Picker-Linz, who were
our agents, offered me a small partnership. It was a very small
firm. And we came with almost nothing because we couldn't take
anything out of Germany. They let us take out some furniture and
our clothes and some personal belongings, but no money.
So I became a partner in this firm with a minimum investment
of maybe a thousand or two thousand dollars advanced by my wife,
and this is the way we started here in this country.
I went for Picker-Linz to Europe quite a few times in the
following years, in '36, '37, as they were in the imported wine
business. And I traveled extensively in Europe in the wine
countries, in France, Italy, Spain, and so on.
Teiser: Buying for them?
Fromm: Buying the wine, because I was the only one who was qualified to do
that.
*
Teiser: Were the wines shipped in bulk or were they bottled?
Fromm: We only bought bottled goods.
Alfred Fromm in 1936, the year he came
to the United States.
Alfred Fromm at an interview conference,
July 19, 1984.
Fromm: But I could see the preparation for war of the Nazis. I saw the
underground bunkers in Germany, and I saw in the Ruhr, which was a
heavy industrial part of Germany, the armaments they produced. I
could see that this would lead to a war. I told my partners that
one day we will be completely cut off from our foreign sources,
that wines cannot be shipped anymore, and that if we wanted to
remain in this business, we'd better make sure we find an American
source of supply.
Many people didn't believe that there was a war coming. My
partners were skeptical, too, but they said, "Well, if you are so
convinced, why don't you go to California and see what you can do?"
I just want to show you how I got into the California wine
business.
Teiser: That's a missing link that I had not known.
Fromm: So in the middle of 1937 I came to California. At that time there
were just a few wineries, and I looked around and called on every
winery in California to see what could be done.
Teiser: What was your impression? You had been to wineries all over the
world — what did you think of the California wine industry at that
time from that survey you made?
Fromm: The industry as such in those days hardly did exist. The aftermath
of Prohibition was still very much in evidence. There were many
vineyards with the wrong kind of grapes. The equipment in the
wineries was very old because there was no money to replace it.
The winery buildings were very old. There was really nothing there
to be particularly attractive. Most of the wineries that I called
on said, "Well, we would be glad to give you the agency, but you
must put some money in," and this was something that we didn't
have.
Teiser: Let me take you back again. You had a sudden view of something
that most people saw developing. What were the outstanding
wineries among those that you visited?
Fromm: There was Beaulieu. There was [Louis M.] Martini. There was Wente
[Bros.]. And there was Martin Ray, who had the Paul Masson winery.
There were maybe four or five premium wineries that made quite
acceptable wine.
Teiser: Was there a quality relationship to the fine wines of Europe?
10
Fromm: No, absolutely not. However, as I traveled so extensively in
California, and particularly in the Napa Valley, and as I knew
something about vineyards and saw the soil and the various
scientific reports that had been made, I had the feeling that if
this was bandied properly, we can make in California a wine that
ultimately could be world class. I was a young man, but of course
when you are young you are enthusiastic and optimistic. I felt it
could be done.
Association with the Christian Brothers. 1937-1983
Joining Efforts with the Brothers
Fromm: So in my travels I came to the Christian Brothers in Napa. The
Christian Brothers at that time were in financial difficulties. As
you know, they are a religious order of the Catholic church, and
they had built monasteries and some colleges like St. Mary's
College, during the heyday of the boom, and then when the
Depression started they couldn't pay their bonds any more, and they
were in some sort of bankruptcy, like today we have Chapter 11 or
something like that.
So I called on them. There was Brother John, who was the head
of the winery, who was a few years younger than I, and Brother
Timothy, who was probably two years younger than I, and the three
of us, we put our heads together and we said, "Well, we have to do
something," because the only way the Brothers could get out of
their financial difficulty was to sell some wines.
ft
Inasmuch as they were not bootleggers, they had accumulated an
inventory of old wines which they did use for sacramental wine.
This inventory was among the best in California.
So we put our heads together and we were good partners,
because they had no money and we had no money [laughing]. But we
all -were young, and I felt we had to make a success, otherwise we
wouldn't eat, because many more members of my family had arrived in
the U.S. without hardly any money.
Teiser: Did you consider an association with any other wineries before
that?
11
Fronm: No, I really didn't. None really appealed to me as much as
Christian Brothers, and one reason for it was, too, that I had a
great feeli :g for the integrity of religious organizations in the
vine business, because in Germany, particularly on the Moselle,
some of the finest vineyards are in the bands of religious organi
zations, and also in Franconia. In the Rheingau the church always
had very important holdings of some of the very finest vineyards.
That was one reason why I thought it might be a good thing to
inspire confidence in the consumer. Even so, I was connected with
Christian Brothers for 46 years and we never mentioned the religious
angle, because it's a poor way to sell. If you ask a Catholic to
buy Christian Brothers wine because it's made by a Catholic order,
it's a poor way to do business. So this never in any way came into
play.
So in 1938 I spent about four months at Mont La Salle
vineyards in Napa up where the monastery is. I slept in the
bishop's room but I always had to get up very early because at
five-thirty one of the Brothers came through all the corridors
with a bell and said get up for mass. And breakfast was at six-
thirty. If you were not there at six-thirty there was
no breakfast because they did not run a hotel [laughing].
But I got up early, and Brother John, Brother Timothy and I
went into the winery and we took a sample of every barrel, a few
hundred small and larger, we tasted the wines, and we made some
blends. At that time there were no varietal wines, so we blended a
burgundy and a sauterne, some Riesling, and a few wines of this
sort. Then by late fall of 1938 we were ready to go to into the
market.
Beginning to Market Christian Brothers Wines
Fronm: The wines were considered in those days premium wines. (They
wouldn't be considered so today, but after all this was 1938, 46
years ago). We developed a unique label. In fact my wife, who is
more artistically inclined than I, first drew it up with lipstick.
We thought a Christian Brothers label in the shape of a triptych
would be the right label, and we had it printed by a printer who
helped us a little, because money was so scarce that we really had
to save every penny, and we did a lot of the work ourselves.
Brother John and Brother Timothy worked in the winery and I worked
in it too, so it was really a joint undertaking.
12
Fromm: When we started out to sell the vine, first in New York and then in
some other places —
Teiser: Through Picker-Linz?
*
Fromm: Through Picker-Linz as exclusive agents for the Brothers— it was
very hard to sell California wines. There were really only two
lines of American wine available that made some claim to quality
and that had wider distribution that the few premium wineries in
California. They were Taylor, New York, and Christian Brothers.
Those two lines were the two lines that were in almost every
store in New York and in many other states.
Teiser: I have been told that wine drinkers in New York were used to the
taste of European wines so that they had to get accustomed to
California wines. Is that correct?
Fromm: It is correct to some extent. Those were wine drinkers, and it
took us quite a few years before we really got to the consumer that
was used to European wines, because at that time we hadn't got
American people yet to drink table wine. They drank sweet wine,
port and sherry, also because it was the cheapest form of fortified
alcohol. The tax on fortified wine was much lower than it was on
distilled spirits. But we were quite successful in a small way,
and we then extended the business into New Jersey, into the middle
West, into Chicago and California. I traveled very extensively
six, seven months a year calling on distributors, traveling as a
salesman, because we were in fact missionary men. Most of the
wholesalers said there was no chance to do anything in the wine
business anyway, "Why do you waste your time here?" I answered,
"Give it a chance and you will be surprised."
So the business grew in a small way, and we opened up maybe 25
states within two or three years, and then in 1941 World War II
broke out.
Teiser: Did you before World War II establish a pricing policy that was
unusual?
Fromm: Yes. Our wines were all priced at the same level. In New York it
was one dollar a bottle, which was then a very high price because
you could buy a lot of California wine for 35 to 40 cents. One
dollar a bottle. We had this price throughout the country; we only
had one price. This was also new. We had only one label. The
only change in the label was the name of the wine.
Then we did something else. We found out that an educational
campaign had to be started, because otherwise people just wouldn't
buy any wine. We needed people to sell wine. Our wine wholesalers
13
Fromm: just didn't care because a case of whiskey was selling for three or
four times as much, and the commission was much higher than on
wine. And the people just didn't know wine. It was really a
wasteland, America, as far as wine was concerned.
I still was optimistic. I always felt that it would come,
because the American people are very flexible, and if something new
comes up that is good they take to it. I think what has been done
in California in the last fifty years has taken Europe 250 years.
The American people, if they have faith in something, the money is
available, the people are available, the market is right there, and
it is just a question how to sell it. So our problem in the first
few years of the firm was to train salesmen of distributors.
Teiser: At that time, didn't Cresta Blanca have some reputation on the East
coast?
Fromm: Yes. In a small way.
Teiser: Was it priced below Christian Brothers?
Fromm: I don't think so, but it was not large. Later on it was taken over
by Schenley and it became a mass producer.
Teiser: Italian Swiss Colony was on a lower level —
Fromm: On a lower level. Gallo was in the business but was not yet as
important at that time. Italian Swiss was very much larger. But
most of the wines in those days were shipped from California in
tank cars, and if the wine did not ferment on the trip and the tank
car did not blow up on the way, it was considered acceptable wine.
It was 90 percent sweet wine. It was bottled by the distributor,
very often under his own label, and not very frequently under the
label of the winery. This was a radical change that took place a
few years later. Then wineries promoted their own brands, like
Italian Swiss and Gallo and Roma and others.
Teiser: But Christian Brothers was shipping everything in bottles all the
time?
Fromm: All bottled at the monastery. We never shipped anything in bulk.
Teiser: Did you consciously adopt the standardized label and the single
price, and shipping everything in bottles as a good merchandising
plan?
Fromm: Yes.
Teiser: Because it surely was.
14
Fromm: It was. And what was new was that we had what we called missionary
men, a few but as many as the firm could pay for, to help the
distributor to train some salesmen so that we would sell some wine.
I talked to thousands of salesmen during those years. If we went
to a large distributor who had, say 75 or 100 salesmen and three or
five were interested in wine, we were already lucky. I think we
were the first to adopt uniform label, uniform pricing, and had
missionary men that were paid by us and helped the wholesaler in
the fullest sense to sell wine, to train him to sell wine. And
that really paid off very handsomely for us. We were the first
ones to do that. Those steps resulted not from great smartness but
from necessity.
Teiser: [laughing] It sounds like a well thought out plan.
Fromm: Well, we had to do it. I always believed that if you are in this
business you have to go to the stores; you have to call on the
people who buy the wine, not go to the wholesaler and leave it up
to him, because if you do generally nothing happens. But if you
talk to the people direct and rather extensively, and call on
restaurants in the evening — And we worked extremely hard, twelve
hour days. But of course we were young and we wanted to make a
success.
The World War II Years
Fromm: In the meantime I brought out [of Germany] all my family. We were
seven children, and they had children. We were four brothers and
three sisters.
Teiser: Tour father came too?
Fromm: Yes, but he came very much later, because he didn't think that the
Nazis could mean him. He was the last one to leave because he was
such a well known and highly regarded man, had a very important
title from the German government, "Kommerzein Rat," only given to
people who have made an outstanding success and contribution to the
country. So he felt that he was safe from the Nazi terror, but
unfortunately he was not.
So I brought out all these people, and we are one of the very
few large Jewish families that live all in the United States where
we have our roots today. Most Jewish families were dispersed all
over the world. It is a very fortunate thing for us.
15
Fromm: When the war broke out, very quickly the shipments from Europe
stopped. We were the only California winery that was ready with a
certain quantity of good wines — sweet wines and some table wines.
We became very succesful during the years, let's say, from 1941 to
1945. Our business increased rapidly. We went into every state of
the union.
We didn't do any advertising because there was no money for
advertising, and in those days the wine business was a small
business basically, but the firm made fairly good money. All of
the partners had a good salary. I drew only $25 or $50 a week out
of a total yearly salary of $10,000, but the difference was never
paid out until many years later. We needed every penny in our
developing wine business. In the beginning we had no credit.
Nobody knew us and we couldn't get any money from the bank in those
days because the firm was too small.
But we did between 1941 and 1945 what would have taken us
fifteen years of normal development, so the war situation
accelerated our business to a very considerable extent.
American Wine in the Latter 1940s
Fromm: In 1945 there still was no real California wine business or
American wine business. There was a poll made by Elmer Roper, who
interviewed 5,000 people in America at random to find out what they
thought about wine and what they thought the industry could do.
The result was, according to the survey, 90 percent of the wine was
bought by bums who wanted to buy cheap alcohol; 6 or 7 percent was
used by ethnic groups like Italians and others and foreign born
people. And maybe 3 percent was purchased by people who knew
already a little bit about wine. But as far as table wine was
concerned, the business was almost non-existent.
In 1945 and up to 1950-1955, it was very difficult to get any
good hotel or restaurant to list any California wine. We made great
efforts in this respect, and finally we got some wines listed. I
had a lot of connections with the finest stores in the country
through my earlier sales of imported wines, and they said, "Well,
Alfred, if you insist, we will buy five cases," but then they
languished some place in the corner and nothing ever happened.
There just was no demand in the finer stores for California
wines. And if a hotel or a good restaurant listed one or two
California wines, one white and one red, one burgundy and one
sauterne, then we felt we were quite successful.
ss did not exist in the sense me know it today.
the large wineries eventually found out if they
a success and earn enough money to improve the
and whatever was necessary to conduct a
•ss, that they had to make some money and that
to sell their ova brands. This is when Callo, Boma,
Italian Swiss, and some of the others started to sell wine under
the wineries' own labels, and this is really the start of their
rketing.
.e
They sold maybe 90 percent sweet wines, fortified wines,
because their type of customer was less used to table wines than
rs were, which vere already a step higher. So this
reased, and by 1960-1965 you could see some nore
elopmemts. People had some faith that thi
business could be developed in the United States.
Barn-ing the Brandy Market, 1943
Fromu: Our vine business grev consistently, and vhat vas particularly
successful for Christian Brothers vas that ve vent into the brand;
business in 1940, and by 1943, vhen ve had enough inventory, ve
vere able to come out vith a very acceptable American brandy. At
that time many people thought it should be called American cognac,
which I opposed very much because we have to stand on our own, and
if you have to borrow the foreign names, it's not good business in
Bow ever, ve came out vith a clean, good product that was
entirely different from French cognacs, which were 99 percent of
the brandy category imported into America. Ve came out with &
product that was much lighter, less high in fusel oil and in
aldehydes than imported brandies, and was particularly fashioned to
mix well with other things like vermouth or whatever mixed drinks
were made in those days. Because I could see in my wide travels,
in so many restaurants and hotels and bars, that mixed drinks were
the big thing, and people rarely drank straight brandy. If they
did they bought cognac, but this was not a bar iten. It was sold
in the finer stores and in the good hotels and restaurants as an
after-dinner drink. But I felt very strongly that brandy had a
place in the American way of life, particularly in spirits, because
it is such a versatile drink and it mixes with almost everything
and had to become a bar
17
Teiser: In the development of the brandy at Christian Brothers, who tasted
and who decided what?
Fromm: Otto Meyer, who is my brother-in-law — he married my late sister — he
was in the brandy business in Germany. His family was in it for
generations, too. He knew a great deal about it, and he helped the
Brothers tremendously by advising us about the best way to blend a
brandy that was different from foreign brandy and that was more
eligible for use in mixed drinks. It was a lighter brandy and a
more palatable brandy. You know, French cognacs very often have
that soapy taste, which is very good for someone who likes it, but
the average person in America didn't like it. You see, in those
days, don't forget, people were a lot less sophisticated in
drinking than they are today.
Teiser: As I remember Christian Brothers brandy when it first came on the
market, it was rather sweeter than it is now.
Fronra: Yes. In those days sweetness was one thing that people were
looking for. It was not really sweetness in a sense but it was
softer and mellower. Then later on when people got more
sophisticated and really appreciated fine spirits, the Christian
Brothers reduced the level of sweetness considerably.
At that time, when we came out with Christian Brothers brandy,
the inventories of French cognacs in America were almost
nonexistent, and this became an instant success.
Teiser: How were you making it? Were you using pot stills?
Fromm: We didn't use pot stills for about three years, because we didn't
have the pot stills. When I say we I mean the Christian Brothers.
We didn't have a pot still in the beginning, but we picked out the
brandies very, very carefully from a large pool, and Otto Meyer
did really an outstanding job. Our brandy was far superior to
anything that was on the market and had an instant success.
Teiser: This was from the prorate pool?
Fromm: Yes. We went throught the whole pool, Otto and I. I think we must
have tasted probably six or seven hundred samples of brandy, which
was no pleasure. But we picked out those maybe fifteen, twenty
lots which were clean, which were nice, and which had some bouquet,
and then Otto made some blends. We came out with some brandy that
was & highly successful product and far superior in quality to
anything which was on the market.
Teiser: Thee you started using pot stills?
18
Fromm: Yes. Then the Brothers saw that pot-still brandy was a heavier,
richer brandy. It had to be aged between six to ten years to
really attain its full quality. You cannot use it as young as
regular brandy.
Teiser: The brandy made in a column still?
Fromm: Yes, the column-still brandy. It's pretty well at the proper age
when it's four years old. But by blending in ten to fifteen
percent of pot-still brandy, it gave our brandy that quality that
didn't exist before.
So we sold to every state in the union. We could have sold
more brandy if we had had the inventory.
Teiser: Were you making that at Mont La Salle?
Fromm: No, it was made at Mt. Tivy.
Teiser: Oh, you'd bought Mt. Tivy by then.
Fromm: Yes, the Christian Brothers bought Mt. Tivy from Seagram's.
Seagram's owned it at the time. We arranged that the Christian
Brothers could buy it at some very favorable terms of payment. On
each case that was shipped they paid a few pennies to Seagram's,
and after six or seven years the winery was paid off.
Teiser: That put you in a Thompson Seedless area, I assume.
Fromm : Ye s .
Teiser: So that you had a good source of supply.
Fromm:
Thompson Seedless makes good brandy. It makes a very neutral
brandy, and that is desirable, but in order to get more taste and
flavor into the brandy, we felt very strongly that we needed some
pot-still brandy. That's what got us into the pot stills, because
it's much more flavorful and gives you more substance. Because
you had blended whiskeys which were very light and didn't have much
taste, and vodka came into the market, and to me this was always
something that I never could understand why people drink anything
that had no taste and no smell and no nothing and was just ordinary
alcohol. But it became very successful, and there was a trend to
lighter drinks. The heavy bourbon drinkers gradually disappeared
and people wanted lighter drinks.
Teiser
Did you use some marketing strategy on that?
bottle was a distinctive shape.
As I remember, the
•>
19
Fromm: Yes, it was a nice bottle that we developed and a nice label, but
nothing really fancy because we always felt that the money had to
be spent on the product and not on the package. So we had a nice,
clean, good package, and the package has hardly ever been changed.
There was a slight improvement in the label but the package
basically is still the same.
Teiser: It's distinctive.
Fromm: Yes, because it's a recognized package and the bottle shape has
been copied by many others.
Creating an Advanced Still
Fromm: So the brandy business then became very large, made large revenue
for us. And then the Brothers put in a special large continuous
still down there, which was entirely different from the stills that
existed in California, because the California brandy stills are
generally high-proof stills, and we wanted a still with more
plates. A much finer product could be developed.
So we went to Seagram's, and Mr. Samuel Bronfman, the one who
developed Seagram's and the largest owner of the Seagram's company,
became a good friend of ours, and we asked him for some advice,
since he was an outstanding expert in spirits. He said to Franz
Sichel*, my partner, and to me, "There is only one way you can do
it. We will give you our best technical people from Louisville,
our still people, who build their own stills, and they will tell
you how it should be done." Then we had the right advisers how to
build stills, and the Christian Brothers stills today still are the
only stills of this kind in the United States.
Teiser: What did this type of still do that other brandy stills flon't do?
Fromm: Well, it was a much more sophisticated still than any still existing
until today in California. It had a lot of improvements that the
whiskey people had worked out over many years for their products,
which of course was a big business and a lot of money was spent by
them on research. So we were the beneficiary of that and had a
brandy still that made cleaner brandy and brandy that did not have
*For an account of the formation of Fromm and Sichel, successors to
Picker-Linz, see pages 22-23.
20
Fromm: as much fusel oil and aldehydes as other brandies produced here.
Actually, we were very anxious that the Christian Brothers produce
for our sales a brandy that was lighter, softer, and would lend
itself particularly for blending in mixed drinks.
Teiser: Does a more sophisticated still "recognize" more sensitively the
factors in the brandy as it's being made and separate them out? Is
that—?
Fromm: Yes, that's exactly what happens. It gaves us the means to double
distill the brandy and clean up any impurities.
So it was not all accidental that the brandy was successful.
It took a lot of planning and thinking. But as I have so often
said, the marvelous thing in America is that if you talk to the
right people they will advise you honestly and give you advice that
you couldn't buy for money. That happened to us.
As the brandy business developed further, we had of course to
borrow money for inventory at the Bank of America. The Bank of
America was very good to us. Very shortly after we started, we got
our first credit because we needed to make more brandy and at that
time you couldn't get any money in New York on brandy because the
banks in New York said, "We will loan on whiskey, but we don't loan
on brandy; we don't know it." So we went to the Bank of America;
who gave us the first credit, and were very good to us, and I have
worked with them since then and never been with any other bank
either for the firm or personally.
Agreement with Seagram's, 1954
Fromm: However, the business ran away, and millions were needed to really
build the inventory, because at that time we sold already six or
seven hundred thousand cases per year of brandy. Your brandy,
let's say, is an average five years old, including the pot still, so
if you sell five hundred thousand cases you have to make two
million cases or two and a half million cases in order to have the
inventory at the same level and not even figuring on any increase.
So that took an enormous amount of money. So again my partner
Franz Sichel and I went to Samuel Bronfman, who was a very good
friend of ours. (I have his picture here on the wall; I'll show it
to you later) And we said, "What should we do?"
So he said, "Well, Seagram's will buy a 70 percent interest in
your firm if you want us to. However, on the condition that Franz
oichel and you remain partners at a sizable share. Because," Mr.
21
Fronm: Bronfman said to us, "I believe that the most money can be made if
you have partners who are financially very much interested in the
firm." I said, "Sam, I do not want to work on a salary regardless
of what the amount is. I have never worked on a salary. When I
was young I worked on commission and I just don't work on a
salary." He said, "Well, we want you as a partner for that reason.
We don't want a man just on salary."
So Seagram's bought 70 percent. However, the understanding
with Seagram's was — and they kept this until last October, 1983,
when the firm was sold back to the Christian Brothers — that this
was run as a completely autonomous business.
After Franz Sichel died, in 1967, I was president and chief
executive officer. I moved in 1941 to California from New York
because it was important that a partner of the firm would be here
in daily contact with the Christian Brothers, the winery, in
California. We moved in '41 to California, and the business
developed very well and made money every year except in 1947, when
the Christian Brothers and we had a large inventory of wine and
then the price controls were dropped, and wine went from $1.20
(sweet wine) to about thirty or forty cents. But that was the only
year we lost some money, because we had a large expensive
inventory. Otherwise we made some money every year.
Business Principles
Fromm: I have, in those many years that I have been with Picker-Linz as a
partner and then with Fromm and Sichel, never have taken a penny out
of the firm except my salary and a bonus, because I wanted to
increase my stake in the firm, which I have done this way. So this
is one of the good things I can say about the German method of
running a business.
As I mentioned, we started in the export business of Christian
Brothers wine and brandy. We were one of the better known
exporters. We shipped to about sixty foreign countries. And the
nice thing was that we got a lot of re-orders. See, when you get
your first order and you don't get a re-order within six months,
then the wine doesn't move. But it worked out quite well. We sold
for less money in the export business than we sold in America. We
had one price. Nobody could get a different price from us. It was
an absolute principle. There was no discount; there was no under-
the-table business. I never found it necessary to bribe anyone or
to pay off someone. That's just no way to do business.
22
Fromm: In all these years that I'm in business in America, I found out you
don't have to be a mental giant, but you have to have certain
principles by which you stick, and this is honesty, and that you
know what you are doing and that you know the field in which you
are working. And if people trust you — and that's why I like it so
much in America — if people trust you, you really have no problems.
Another principle I always worked with is only to deal with
the best people, because if you are not so smart yourself and you
deal with sharpies, you mostly get the short end. If you deal with
honorable and first-class people you do all right. Sometimes
people asked me, "Alfred, how come you have so many good
distributors in the country?" I said, "Well, for a very simple
reason. Because they're people I could talk to, who trusted me,
and they're people who would pay us right away." We needed the
money right away because in a firm like ours that had developed
that fast there was never enough money, because all the money had
to go into the inventory.
Teiser: This arrangement with the Christian Brothers group and your group,
was there a parallel in the United States at all for such a
combination?
Fromm: I don't think so.
Teiser: It was unique?
Fromm: Yes. And as the Brothers often said to me, which pleased me very
much, before they made the contract with us they dealt with some
people in the East, and they said, "You know Alfred, since we were
dealing with a Jewish firm, we never had a better deal. You are
honest, you are men of integrity." I said, "Well, it's no more
than good business to be honest and have integrity." I have told
this to hundreds and hundreds of young men who have worked for us.
It was a principle that applied to anyone who worked in the firm.
So many of the young people, particularly today, think if you are
successful in business that you must have some tricks or that you
have some crooked ways of making money. I always tell them, "If
ever anyone told you this, they didn't tell you the right thing."
Fromm and Sichel, Successor to Picker-Linz, 1945
Teiser: When did Picker-Linz become Fromm and Sichel?
Fromm: Nineteen forty-five, on January 1. I associated myself as a
partner with Franz Sichel, who comes from the wine firm of Sichel-
23
Fromm: in- Mainz. He was ten years older then I am, a very good wine man,
and a very fine person. We were partners for almost twenty-five
years and never had one cross word. So it was a very happy
relationship. He knew I was more adventurous than he was and more
active and younger, so he let me handle things without interfer
ence. We talked every Sunday for an hour or an hour and a half on
the telephone, discussed everything that was going on, and then we
made our decisions right then and there. That worked out very
well.
I had already bought out all my other partners. And Franz
Sichel joined me in 1945. I needed a large credit in the Bank of
America. And just to give you an illustration of how things were
in those days, I got a three-year credit at 1 3/4 percent interest
per year. Those were different times and it was a very good rate.
But one of the top men in the Bank of America who liked me quite a
bit, had complete trust in me. He said, "Alfred, the fact that you
are so anxious to get the lowest rate of interest — only people who
want to pay want the low rate. The ones who don't want to pay,
they don't care what we charge them."
Teiser: Do you want to name him?
Fromm: Fred Ferroggiaro. He was an executive vice-president of the Bank
of America and chairman of the finance committee. A really old-
style banker.
Instead of three years, after one and a half years I was able
to pay off my loan at the bank. That was one of the happy days of
my life. I had a lot of deferred salary coming that I hadn't
drawn, so I drew that, and the taxes were low in those days. So I
paid off the bank. Franz Sichel borrowed, too, in the Bank of
America, and Seagram's had to deduce that I didn't need any help
from them. They knew me in the bank and I didn't need any
guarantees or anything. But they didn't know Franz Sichel, so he
borrowed in the bank, too, with Seagram's backing, and that was
paid off a little later. It was always a very excellent relation
ship of trust that we had with the Bank of America.
In those days the bank was a lot smaller, and there was much
more of a personal relationship. I mean, I had many good friends —
most of the presidents of the Bank of America have been personal
friends of mine because they liked to talk to a small businessman,
too, get his ideas and suggestions.
San. Armacost, the new president of the bank, I know him well.
He's a personal friend. But if you want something, if you go to
Sam Armacost you are being turned over to someone else, because the
24
Fromm: man has so many responsibilities. It's not the same as it was
forty years ago.
**
Fromm: In 1950 Seagram's became a partner in Fromm and Sichel. The
partnership consisted 70 percent of Seagram's and 30 percent was
owned by Franz Sichel and myself.
As I told you, we were completely autonomous. Seagram's was
always available when we wanted advice, but we never came to them
and said, "This is a problem and that's a problem." We said,
"Here, this is the problem; that's what we expect to do. Do you
have a better solution?" They always said, "Go ahead and do what
you described."
You know, as I so often say, the good Lord had his hand over
us. That you have to work hard, that you have to be honorable,
have integrity, that you know your business — that's only 50
percent. But the other 50 percent is being there at the right
time, getting together with the right people. And some people say
that's good luck, that's good fortune; I say it was a good hand
that was over us. In all those years. And I'm very grateful for
that.
Association with Paul Mas son
President, 1944-1955
Teiser: There was quite an overlap, was there not, with your interest in
Paul Masson?
Fromm: Yes. Paul Masson was owned by Seagram's. They didn't do anything
with it. It was very small. They bought it from Martin Ray. It
was a premium winery, had some very, very good wines there. But
they had no sales organization. One day the head of Seagram's
called Franz Sichel and me and said, "We would like you to take it
off our hands." We said, "We'll be glad to do it, but we will pay
you only as we sell the inventory, because we cannot afford to
invest additional money and we don't want to borrow any more
money." They said, "Fine, do that."
Then I became president of Paul Masson, and I spent quite some
time down there. At that time my father was already here, and he
tasted every barrel of wine, and he was really an outstanding
25
Fronm: taster. And we put a small quantity of wine into the market at
that time at, I think, $36 a case, which was an unheard of price.
They had some beautiful wines there. That business developed very
quickly. The purchase price to Seagram's was paid off within two
years.
Teiser: You were president from '44 to '55.
Fronm: Yes. I ran the business in addition to our business here for
Christian Brothers, and we did very well with it, but there was a
limit how far we could grow because the inventory did not exist,
and the winery up in the hills in Saratoga was very, very small.
So we did a few things up there, like Music in the Vineyards,
started by my late brother Norman. You have heard about Music in
the Vineyards? It's already in its twentieth year at Paul Masson.
Open-air concerts. We founded that, and it has been done now by
other wineries, and the nice thing is if you do something right,
other people will do it, too. But it always takes someone to stick
his neck out and try to do it.
So we developed this firm, and then we could see there was
quite a chance in Paul Masson as a premium winery, as they were
only in the table wine business at that time. Otto Meyer, who was
with me in the firm, was asked to take over management of Paul
Masson and run it, and he became president and ran it quite suc
cessfully.
Teiser: Let me take you back if I may. As I remember, at the time that you
took it over, the winery wasn't very much and it had little vine
yard land. Is that right?
Fromm: It had a few hundred acres of top-grade vineyards up on the hill,
but the production was extremely small. We replanted quite a few
vineyards, and then in the early 1960s we bought a lot of new
vineyard land down near Salinas because there just was no land
available in Santa Clara County, as you know, with the development
of the whole Silicon Valley, at a price where you could afford to
have a vineyard. So we went down there and we planted about 1500
acres.
Teiser: In the meantime, did you have others making wine for you?
Fromm: Yes. We got some wines from Mirassou and from some other people
down there. They made it under contract for us. Then we built the
winery in Saratoga. That was at that time quite an undertaking.
And the champagne business was developed, the wine business was
developed. And then in Soledad another vinery and crushing plant
was built.
26
Fronm: When Otto vent to Paul Masson, there was some sort of jealously
between the Christian Brothers and Paul Masson, even though we ran
it separately and never had any difficulty in our mind to separate
those two and do the right thing for both. But the Brothers felt
maybe that I would spend more time on it, so we split it off and
made it a completely separate operation.
Teiser: For both of them.
Fromm: — by Picker-Linz first, and then by Fromm and Sichel.
it up and they had their own organization.
Teiser: Masson was no longer distributed by your firm?
So we split
Fromm: No. They built their own organization and became quite big in the
meantime. They went more and more into production of large
quantities of wine. They now have another plant in the San Joaquin
Valley. But at that time when Otto and I were in charge, we really
ran it as a premium wine business, as a top-quality producer.
Planting Vineyards in the Salinas Valley
Teiser: When you bought the acreage in the Salinas Valley, was that a big
decision? Were you part of that decision?
Fromm: Yes. It was a decision that gave me many sleepless nights because
we didn't know how well a vineyard would do. We were the first
ones to do that. And after that Mirassou came in, and after that
Wente came in. But we were the pioneers. We were the first ones.
Masson bought acreage in 1960, Mirassou in 1961, and in 1962 their
first commercial plantings were made.
What we found out later was that the white grapes down there
were absolutely excellent but the red grapes needed something else.
Red grapes there are not as good as the grapes in Napa or Sonoma.
We planted only the best varietal grapes. Then later on the red
grapes were mostly grafted over to white grapes like Johannisberg
Riesling and Chardonnays and Semillon and Sauvignon blanc.
Teiser: You planted the vines on their own roots?
Fromm: No, they were all grafted on American rootstock.
Teiser: Originally?
Fromm: Yes. Even so, it's no phylloxera yet down there but it's coming
27
too.
Teiser: Then the Masson vineyards there won't be affected?
Fromm: Yes, they can still be affected; even a grafted vineyard can be
affected to some extent by phylloxera in a small way. But it's a
danger, you know — if you have pests in a certain territory you
never know how far it can go. Some of the chemicals that we used
before in spraying the vineyards are outlawed and the new ones are
less effective today, so we were very, very careful on that.
Teiser: Did you work with the university on various plantings for Paul
Masson?
Fromm: Every vineyard has been plotted and planned by UC Davis. They were
absolutley marvelous. They sent their groups down there; they made
the surveys and they made us plots of the various soil conditions
and all that, and we followed strictly their advice, and it turned
out very well. They are the best people in the world. I have been
around in my life, and I really can say that.
Teiser: Who there did you work with mainly?
Fromm: There are quite a few people, mainly, Dr. [A.J.] Winkler. We also
talked a great deal to Dr. [Maynard A.] Amerine, and to Dr. [Emil]
Mrak. Dr. Winkler was really in charge at that time. He sent
students down, and it was a good experience for them, and it helped
us and hardly cost us anything. It's a marvelous service. And as
I have often said, the California wine industry would not be where
it is today if it wasn't for Davis, because they are really the
tops in wine-making techniques and all that. They developed a
combination of modern American technology and European traditions,
which is what makes a good mixture.
Teiser: In the rehabilitation of both Christian Brothers and Paul Masson,
did you draw on your knowledge of European wineries to select
equipment for these wineries?
Fromm: We advised the Brothers, we helped the Brothers to get the best
equipment. We gave them the names and we put them in touch with
the various people. But in the meantine, the Brothers had
developed their own staff of really good people, BO that was not so
much necessary any more. But we always consulted with each other
and worked very closely together. Unfortunately, Brother John
died very early, and there were a few successors who were not as
well versed in the wine business as Brother John was, who really
grew up with it, the same as I.
Teiser: Was champagne an important product for Paul Masson all along?
28
Fronm: Yes, it was. Champagne was the main product of Paul Masson, but
with the chances that we all saw in the wine business, we felt that
the wine business had to be developed and came very fast, and that
made it necessary then to build the new plant and to put the
vineyards in. And then Masson had a lot of contracts with other
vineyardists down in Monterey County, so the grapes were then
available. They were the first ones to put in a large vineyard,
and as I told you, then Mirassou and Wente followed afterwards.
There are good grapes from there.
**
Association With the Christian Brothers Continued
Selling Christian Brothers Wines
Teiser: One thing that you said yesterday that I was thinking about — you
said that when you started working with the Christian Brothers, you
decided that it was necessary to educate Americans about wine
drinking. How did you undertake that?
Fronm: Well, the first thing was that we had what we called missionary men
that called on our wholesalers and distributors and tried to
educate the salesmen so that they, in turn, would talk to the
retailers. In addition to that, we talked to a lot of wine
writers. There were not too many in those days, and they were all
new in the business and I was able to give them some helpful
information. It was amazing how much good will I found as far as
education of wine is concerned, because it's a very pleasant sub
ject.
Teiser: Another thing occurred to me: When you were tasting with the
Christian Brothers, were you trying to create a wine that was not
European, and not like previous California wines? What was your
aim?
Fromm: Our aim in tasting all the wines was to blend together the wines
which were most suitable for this purpose because the Christian
Brothers, and in particular, Brother John, Brother Timothy and I,
felt that we should come out with a product that was on a quality
level but at the same time, would appeal to the American taste.
And that meant, among the red wines that the wine should not have
excess tannin, that the wine had a certain softness to it. As you
know, particularly for a neophyte in drinki.ng wine, the scale of
taste generally goes from sweet to dry. As I said to you
Gathered for a 1967 meeting in Montreal, left to right: Brother
Gregory of Mont La Salle; Samuel Bronfman, head of Seagrams;
Brother Charles Henry, first American Superior General of the
Christian Brothers; Alfred Fromm.
At the Christian Brothers' Greystone winery, late 1970s,
left to right: Brother Gregory, Alfred Fromm, unidentified
person, Brother Timothy, Walter Neihoff of Botsford Ketchum
advertising agency.
29
Fromm: yesterday, America was really a wasteland in those days as far as
wine is concerned. We had to come out with something that would
appeal to the consumer but at the same time was on a very much
higher quality level then the California wines that were in the
market and were mostly shipped in tank cars from California and
were bottled and sold at very low prices.
The Vie-Del Company
Teiser: I don't know where it fits in, but I want to ask you about the Vie-
Del Company. Was it connected with either Christian Brothers or
Paul Masson?
Fromm: No, it was not. However, Vie-Del supplied blending sherry to
Seagram's, and we were talking to Jim Riddell and Mike Nury, who at
that time were running the Vie-Del Company. It was a very small
firm at that time, and we built, later on, brandy warehouses at
Vie-Del to store the brandy produced by the Christian -Brothers.
Under our contract with the Christian Brothers only brandy produced
by the Christian Brothers could be sold under the Christian
Brothers label. This was in effect in all those years.
So we had our brandy warehouses there, and Vie-Del supplied to
Seagram's blending sherry, and we became very friendly. It took
considerably more money than Vie-Del at that time had of their own
to build the brandy warehouses, and their credit with the banks was
not very well established. So Fromm and Sichel purchased the
majority of the Vie-Del shares. We also got an option on the
balance of the Vie-Del shares, and after the death of Mr. [James]
Riddell all his shares would have to be purchased by us. So Mr.
Riddell knew that there was a market for his share in the business.
He did die some years later [in 1973]. And Mr. Nury
acquired from us some of the shares at a very advantageous payment
schedule, because he is an extremely capable man and has made a
great success of the Vie-Del Company. I was a partner in the Vie-
Del Company, too, but when I sold my shares to Seagram's in August
of 1983, they acquired Fromm and Sichel's shares in Vie-Del, too,
and own something like 87 percent of the Vie-Del Company, and Mike
Nury owns roughly 13 percent.
30
St. Regis Vineyards
Teiser: I think I read that in 1939 you bought some vineyard land in
California, maybe it was a small amount, and I think I noticed that
from time to time you had invested in other vineyard land. Is that
correct?
Fromm: No, our firm did not invest in vineyard land as early as that, but
we did later on. It must have been about 1975 that we founded the
firm St. Regis Vineyards, that was a subsidiary of Fromm and
Sichel, that acquired 350 acres of first-class vineyard land in Napa
Valley in order to produce additional top varietal grapes that the
Christian Brothers needed. The Christian Brothers did not want to
put their money in or were not able to put their money in for those
additional vineyards so we financed it, and then as the vineyards
produced grapes, we turned the grapes over to the Christian
Brothers.
St. Regis Vineyards still has this land under long-term
leases. It's right on the highway and near St. Helena and then
further up in the hills.
Growth of the Christian Brothers
Teiser: Over the years, then, since you have known and worked with
Christian Brothers, it's really developed considerably, has it not?
Fromm: Yes, it has developed to one of the leading wineries in the premium
business. It's not a boutique winery, it's a medium-sized winery
and sales were something like a million and a half cases of brandy
and between a million and a half and two million cases of wine. So
it's not a small winery.
Teiser: And it's grown physically, also?
Fromm: Yes, very much so. The Christian Brothers built additional facili
ties in the Napa Valley and they purchased, quite a few years ago,
the Greystone Cellars in Napa Valley. They purchased the Bisceglia
winery in Fresno. They built a big warehouse near St. Helena.
They put in additional vineyards of their own because it was
needed. They have invested quite some money in their facilities,
and we generally helped them in doing it. The Brothers own
approximately 1400 acres in Napa Valley.
Teiser: I read about Greystone being possibly not earthquake-proof.
31
7romm: Yes. Well, they will make a lot of seismic investigations now
to find out. That building looks like a fortress, and it has big
stone walls and all that, but it is earthquake country there, and
there is a certain danger, and it is such a popular place for
visitors to visit. I know there are sometimes a few hundred people
there, and God forbid you had something collapse. It could be
really catastrophic. Greystone was built in 1889, and of course
in those days one did not know how one could build better
earthquake-proof buildings. It is a beautiful place and a great
tourist attraction.
Teiser: The Christian Brothers champagne cellars are on the southern edge
of St. Helena —
Fromm: Yes.
Teiser: Can you say something about that?
Fromm: Well, we asked the Brothers to produce champagne, and then they put
in the Charmat process because in many tastings we found out that
we could make a more even-bodied champagne and stabilize the
quality. It's made in small tanks and they really have put out
a product that is very well accepted by the trade and by the
consumer because it is a very good champagne. It was made at
Greystone but now, of course, they have to relocate this and put it
where they have the big warehouse and storage capacity in St.
Helena.
Teiser: They were not making the methode champenoise champagne at Grey-
stone?
Fromm: No, it was all Charmat process champagne. Yes. They were making
it there at Greystone at first, and it was well aged there on the
upper floor where the champagne facilities were, and there was a
lot of room. We put the bottles aside for aging, and after some
time it was a really good product.
Teiser: The South St. Helena Charmat process facility itself was quite
advanced, was it not, when they built it later?
Fromm: Yes. Brother Timothy and some of his assistants had been to France
and to Germany and talked to a lot of people. And then we all
decided that the Charmat process for Christian Brothers would be a
better process than a bottle-fermented methode champenoise because,
as I said, we would have a more even quality product.
32
The California Brandy Business
Teiser: Have Christian Brothers' sales increased or have they hit a
plateau?
Fromm: Well, in the last few years, brandy sales were rather flat. They
increased every year by maybe thirty or fifty thousand cases and
there was a certain plateau. The Brandy Advisory Board, which
unfortunately is being discontinued, was able to promote brandy in
a way that a private firm could not do legally. On the other
hand, the brandy business is one of the businesses in hard liquor
that is more stable and has not receded; in fact the total
consumption of brandy has increased.
Teiser: The Brandy Advisory Board was started in 1972 —
Fromm: Yes. At that time the president of our firm, Jack Welsch, was
instrumental in establishing the Brandy Advisory Board. And all
the brandy producers were members of it, and there was a certain
assessment on each gallon of brandy produced.
Teiser: It was a California state marketing organization?
Fromm: Marketing order, yes, it was.
Teiser: Has it accomplished what it set out to do?
Fromm: We think it has, yes.
Teiser: Why is it being let go now, then?
Fromm: Well, there is a very large factor — the Gallos. And apparently Mr.
[Ernest] Gallo felt that if he spends the money on production that
he supplies to the Advisory Board on assessment, he could get more
for his money. However, now they're changing because, for the
first time, Gallo seems to be willing to cooperate with the
vintners, with the producers, to have a joint order for wine. This
is quite a change in his attitude. The Gallos are farsighted
people.
Teiser: The rise of brandy sales by Gallo, which has been overtaking
Christian Brothers —
Fromm: It has overtaken to a very small extent, and right now sales of
Gallo and Christian Brothers are about equal, but Gallo brandy is
selling for a much lower price than Christian Brothers in
general, and they give very large discounts. They are a privately
held firm and I think a very profitable firm, and they can well
33
Fromm: afford to do that. They have the enormous scale of size. Gallo is
the lowest-cost producer of any winery in the United States. So
they spend considerable money, but generally their brandy sells for
less than Christian Brothers'. They do not use any pot-still
brandy in their blend. That's a good part of it, so we think it
will always be neck and neck, the competition between Gallo and
Christian Brothers.
Teiser: The implication in Gallo's effort is that brandy can have a larger
market than it has. Do you believe that?
Fromm: Yes, I definitely believe that.
Teiser: Where would it come from?
Fromm: Well, brandy has a lot of versatility and can be used in very many
ways. We are getting away more and more from trying to sell to the
public brandy in a snifter because there is a different way of
using brandy. Brandy is a very nice and soft drink. It is a very
agreeable drink. It is made from grapes, so it has all the advan
tages in the public eye. A very good brandy is really a very good
drink. As people get away more and more from harsher whiskeys, the
brandy business has increased and will further increase the same as
the business in cordials has tremendously increased in the United
States — imported cordials and American produced cordials. And
they're being consumed mostly by the younger people.
Then the brandy market could expand at the expense of whiskey or
vodka or —
Yes, well, the whiskey business is receding and I think brandy can
take some of it. Brandy is only a small part, about 4 1/2 to 5
percent of the consumption of spirits. We feel that progress will
be slow but there will be progress every year and it is quite
possible that brandy will ultimately have maybe a market share of 8
to 10 percent of the spirit consumption.
Teiser: One of the brandy mysteries, I believe, is its heavy sale in
Wisconsin.
Fromm: The consumption of brandy in Wisconsin was for many years much
larger than the consumption of whiskey, and nobody has found out
the real reasons. Of course, there are a lot of European families
there with people of European origins — Germany, in
particular — who really didn't know any whiskeys, but brandy was
always considered a medicine and very healthy and a good drink.
But nobody has explained why the people in Wisconsin just drink
brandy so much. They drink a shot of brandy with a glass of beer.
A strange way for us to think of it, but that's what happens.
Teiser:
Fromm:
34
Fromm: Minnesota is a large market and we have done there very
considerable business. However, in Wisconsin the brandy business
was strictly a price-cutting business and, while we were there for
many years, we did not choose to give the brandy away and lose
money on it. So a lot of cheap brandy was sold.
Teiser: Are there imported brandies that are competitive with California
brandies?
Fromm: Well, certainly not the cognacs that sell for at least two and two
and a half times as much, but the so-called French brandies which
are not cognacs which are made in other parts of France from low-
priced wines. These grapes that are used in the cognac districts
are very expensive. There is a very limited production. So, yes,
there are some there to give us competition. Low-price brandies
particularly from France. And every wine-producing country in the
world produces brandy, too.
Teiser: Can you make brandy out of any old wine?
Fromm: Well, you can, but you can not make good brandy out of poor wine.
The wine has to be clean, it has to be fresh and has to be made
from the right kind of grapes, otherwise you have no flavor. And
if you have wine that is half-spoiled and you have so much fusel
oil in it, it becomes almost like gasoline; it's undrinkable.
Styles of Brandy
Fromm: Actually, when the Christian Brothers went into the brandy
business, there was hardly any brandy business in America. I think
we were really the ones who put brandy on the map. There was very
little brandy sold here.
Teiser: The California Wine Association had A.R. Morrow brandy.
Fromm: Yes, that was a very heavy brandy and there were some people who
liked it, but it was not really for the American taste. I think
Christian Brothers was the first one to find out what the American
people would like to drink, and then we tried to fashion a good
product and told the Brothers what we needed, and had a lot of
tasting on that and checked it continously, and decided that pot-
still brandy ae I mentioned before was a necessary ingredient that
would give it quality.
Teiser: Just now there is at least one winery making pot-still brandy —
Schramsberg Vineyard, in a joint venture.
35
Fromm: Yes, yes, that's together with Remy Martin who is from France. But
pot-still brandy needs a lot more aging than continuous-still
brandy. It will probably take quite some time before it will be on
the market. All of the specialties can only be helpful to the
brandy business. I always have been of the opinion that good new
products — a product that has a special interest that can be produced
in small quantities — can only help the industry. It's, you know,
like going into a store to buy a dress. You want to look maybe at
ten dresses before you buy. That's how most women do. So you have a
certain variety that adds some interest to the search.
Teiser: Is there a "boutique" brandy industry starting?
Fromm: If there is there a boutique brandy, I think Christian Brothers had
it by putting out X 0 Brandy. X 0 [Rare Reserve] had 50 percent
pot-still brandy and 50 percent continuous still brandy and was
made from the oldest reserves of the Brothers. The Brothers today
have by far the largest inventory of old brandy and the largest
inventory of brandy altogether in the United States.
Teiser: They served it at your testimonial dinner, did they not?
Fromm: Yes, yes they did. I think that X 0 Brandy is something that can
well compete with good French Cognacs.
Teiser: I would think there would be a temptation for the same kind of
people who have a lot of money and don't mind losing it and want to
make fine wine — to get into experimenting with pot-still brandy.
Fromm: The brandy business is a very capital-intensive business. It takes
a lot of money to do that. As an example, if you sell a thousand
cases of brandy, the pot-still brandy would have to be six or eight
years old; you would have to produce each year enough for six or
eight thousand cases plus whatever you expect your sales increases
will be. So it takes a tremendous amount of money. It was the
fact that it takes so much money that led us to go to Seagram's and
find a very secure large financial basis where there was no limit
to how far we could extend the business.
Teiser: I remember having been in the experimental brandy distillery at DC
Davis. Have their studies contributed to the industry?
Fromm: Yes, Dr. [James F.] Guymon did a very creditable job. I would
certainly say that without the people who work in Davis, the wine
industry and the brandy industry in California would not be what it
is today. They have a great share, they can take a large share of
credit for that.
36
Teiser: I am told by industry members that the Data Annual summarizing each
year's California wine and brandy statistics, was of great value to
everyone. Would you tell about how Fromm and Sichel happened to
undertake the job of compiling and publishing it?
Fromm: We felt that as a public service we should give pertinent
information to the American wine writers, trade associations, and
others interested in this material that was not available otherwise
to them in such a comprehensive form. We felt that at the same
time it would build some good will for our firm.
Sale of Fromm and Sichel to The Christian Brothers, 1983
Teiser: To come back to recent events, Fromm and Sichel continued until
just this last year?
Fromm: Fromm and Sichel was sold to the Christian Brothers on October 1,
1983.
Teiser: What part of the holdings of Fromm and Sichel went to the Christian
Brothers?
Fromm: Only those holdings that they needed to run the sales business of
their products.
Teiser: You said that the reason for the sale —
Fromm: The issue was that the Christian Brothers were very anxious to
combine marketing and production — to synchronize that because this
became sometimes a problem. And it had something to do, too, with
my retirement, as I was running the firm for so many years. So we
turned over a lot of the brandy inventories — the inventories were
all made by the Christian Brothers, but we paid for them at time of
production because the Christian Brothers couldn't afford to keep
brandy inventories of something like $80 million to $90 million.
So we turned over to the Brothers the amount of brandy that
they needed for their sales. They asked if they could continue
with the name of Fromm and Sichel because we have a respected name
throughout the country, which we agreed to. And they took some of
our top people, including our general sales manager, who was with
us for many years, Al [Allen] Nirenstein, and so we have helped
then as much as we can and we will continue to help because we want
to see them succeed.
37
Fromm: I have a personal reason in that, too, I was for 47 years connected
with the Christian Brothers, and the firm Fromm and Sichel has my
name in it. I was a founder of Fromm and Sichel, and the best part
of my business life I spent with the Christian Brothers, so I have
a very warm feeling for the Brothers in my heart and I help them
whenever possible.
Teiser: Do you still work a little with them, then?
Fromm: Well, they ask me sometimes about certain things, and they know
that if there's any problem coming up where I can be of help, that
I will be glad to do it and so will the Seagram's company.
Teiser: What is the organization known as the Brandy Association of
California with which you continue to be associated as chairman of
the board?
Fromm: It was until the sale of Fromm and Sichel to the Christian Brothers
a subsidiary 100 percent owned by us. Over the years Brandy
Association sold brandy produced by Vie-Del to other brandy
marketers. After the sale of Fromm and Sichel, substantial
assets, including our office building, not sold to the Christian
Brothers were transferred to Brandy Associates, now a Division of
Joseph £. Seagram and Sons, New York, and 100 percent owned by
them. They have taken over certain pension matters and other
obligations of Fromm and Sichel.
Key Men at Christian Brothers
Teiser: Have you tasted for them all these years?
Fromm: Yes, we have done a lot of tasting. That was, I think, maybe one
of my main contributions that I could make in the production — in
tasting — because it was with Brother Timothy and in former years,
Brother John. Brother John was a dynamic guy and he died,
unfortunately, much too young and I would say, Brother John and I
really put the business on the map. It was a very close
cooperation and, as I think I mentioned, in the beginning neither
the Brothers nor we had any money to speak of, so it was necessaary
to do a lot of things together and fortunately, it did work out
well for both parties.
Teiser: Did the two of you sort of teach Brother Timothy?
38
Fromm: Well, Brother John probably did to a large extent, but Brother
Timothy has a very good palate. And Brother Timothy is very good
in public relations. I mean his whole appearance. And he's a very
kind man and a very knowledgeable man. He has been very helpful in
the development of the business, and we have asked Brother Timothy
very often to call on certain customers, together with some of our
sales force, which has always been successful.
Teiser: Are there others among the Brothers who have become experts?
Fromm: Well, there are some and then, of course, they have some lay people
who run the wineries and their production. There was John Hoffman
who was in charge of production of table wines in Napa, and he is a
brother of the late Brother John. And then down in Mt. Tivy
winery in the San Joaquin Valley, there was Herman Archinal — a very
capable man who worked very closely with Brother John. Those
people are not there any more. They have retired now. There are
new people now there. They were there for many years; you know, we
all have gotten a little bit older in the last 47 years.
Teiser: But they haven't been able to bring up any Brothers as experts?
Fromm: Well, I always told them how important this was, and they have some
people, but they are not as conversant with all the new production
techniques that are required today. So they hired some very good
lay people.
Museum of San Francisco. 1974-1984
Teiser: There were other assets of Fromm and Sichel that were disposed of?
Fromm: They were not disposed of to the Christian Brothers.
This building here, that was owned by Fromm and Sichel, was
sold recently and this is one of the reasons why the Wine Museum
has to be dissolved, because it's part of this building. I built
this building twelve years ago as headquarters for Fromm and
Sichel, but since I sold my stock 100 percent to Seagram's, Sea
gram's actually, now is the owner of this building. It's held by
Fromm and Sichel, but Fromm and Sichel is owned 100 percent by
Seagram* s.
Teiser: So it was really Seagram's, through Fromm and Sichel, who made the
sale to the Christian Brothers — is that right?
The Wine Museum of San Francisco, incorporating The Christian
Brothers Collection, was opened in 1974.
Above 3 Mr. and Mrs. Alfred Fromm at the opening reception, with a
grape vine sculpture by J. B. Blunk commissioned for the museum.
Below, the Thomas Jefferson Gallery.
'
39
Fronnn: That's correct.
Teiser: But Seagram's held on to this building?
Fromm: Yes.
Teiser: There's a picture of you and several other men standing on a board
in what looks like London after the blitz, with glasses of
champagne. And it's the site just before construction started.
It was clearly a very happy occasion.
Fromm: Well, you know, this building site was really a slum, with some
miserable schlock stores. But we bought this lot because it has
such a marvelous location particularly for the museum, you know —
the end of the cable car line. And there's a tremendous amount of
visitors here in this neighborhood, so we were very anxious to get
the lot. It was very expensive in those days, but today it's
probably worse — three times as much.
Teiser: Who designed the building?
Fromm: Worley Wong, architect in San Francisco.
Teiser: You must have worked very closely with him, did you?
Fromm: Yes, we did, yes.
Teiser: Was the wine museum conceived as part of it originally?
Fromm: As soon as we built the building we created space for the wine
museum and built an extra addition for it.
Teiser: The wine museum — may I ask you about it?
Fromm: Well, I always felt that a wine museum that would deal exclusively
with wine in the arts would be a great asset to our industry. In
fact, the Wine Museum of San Francisco is the only museum in the
United States that deals exclusively with wine and the arts. We
don't show any old barrels or any big wine presses or things like
that, but we really deal with wine in the arts. My late brother,
Norman, and I and my wife, we collected for about forty-five years
and got some marvelous artworks which today are almost
unobtainable. Even if today, say, you want to spend a few million
dollars, you couldn't get those collections together because the
stuff just isr.'t available or you can buy it at some auctions — one
thing here and one thing there — but it takes many years to get a
collection together.
40
Teiser: Did you buy through agents in Europe, or —
Fronm: Well, we bought through agents in Europe and people we know that
had connections. We bought things here, and I had a very large
collection of wine books, about a thousand wine books, some of them
very, very rare and old, going back to almost the earliest type of
printing, in Latin and in Italian* English wine books are, of
course, a much later date. And I own this collection and it will
end up at the new Seagram museum in Waterloo, Ontario, Canada,
which was just built and will open very shortly. It is a very
large museum for wines and spirits. Most of our collections will
go there.
Teiser: I'm so sorry San Francisco is losing all that.
Fromm: Yes. It was really a labor of love. It was a special project of
mine, but that's the way those things go, in very large companies
decisions are being made that are very difficult to change and the
very top management of Seagram's just didn't want to overrule them.
They felt the Wine Museum wouldn't produce any revenue. Well,
that's of course the wrong attitude. You know, man doesn't live by
bread alone.
We had in the museum every year between 100,000 and 125,000
visitors. We were very choosy — we never accepted any bus tours.
We could have had 500,000 people a year if we had bus tours, but we
didn't want it because a museum should be a place where you can
leisurely browse around and really enjoy what we have, and I think
it has created a lot of good will not only for Christian Brothers
but for the whole industry. And I am very industry-minded. I
always felt that what's good for the industry is good for us too.
Teiser: Could you speak a little of Mr. Ernest Mittelberger's part in the
museum?
Fromm: Yes. Well, when we opened the museum, Ernie Mittleberger, who had
worked ae Public Relations Director of Paul Masson and who had
worked with me for many years before in New York when our firm was
in New York — the old Picker-Linz Company — he was there with us, and
I knew that Ernie was always very much interested in art. He was a
real student — typical German student, you know; they were very,
very thorough. He had to know. So when we opened here, I said,
"Ernie, I want you to take that over."
First he said to me, "Well, I don't know if I could do it, if
I'm qualified."
I said, "Ernie, you are qualified. You just find out what you
have to do." And within a couple of years, it was amazing how well
-
«}-,
41
Fronnn :
Teiser
Fronnn :
Teiser
Fronnn:
Teiser
Frourm :
things ran and how people came to him for information as be was
very sound in what he was doing. Ernie and I, we planned then
together those various exhibits in the museum which were very well
received. We were very anxious that the museum not be used for
propaganda and not for trying to sell something. We never sold
anything in the museum. Yes, you could buy a few postcards for
twenty cents or the book that Ernie wrote as co-author.
I have a copy of it, In Celebration of Wine and Life
Lamb and Mr. Mittelberger.
by Richard B.
You probably saw the foreward that I wrote.
Yes. I'm about to ask you to autograph it.
There was also a second book, wasn't there, on art?
Yes, there have been quite a few books. Some odd publishers came
to us and wanted to reproduce a number of our artworks and they
did, and they were always very well received, but we never in any
way whatsoever promoted any sales of them because I felt this was
the wrong way for a museum. A museum should be a public place and
a place for the good of the public, and ultimately you get some
benefits out of it, too.
What will happen to the glass collection?
The glass collection belongs to the Franz W. Sichel Foundation.
Franz Sichel, as I mentioned, I think, to you yesterday, was my
partner for almost twenty-five years. After I started to collect
wine antiques, I finally induced Franz that he should do something
too (this goes back now about thirty years) and he started to get
interested in wine glasses and he had some very excellent advisers,
true experts, because those things you have to know. He got a
fabulous collection together and this was exhibited in our office,
of course. Not all the glasses could be. That was one of the
reasons we wanted to show them in the wine museum. Unfortunately,
when we opened the museum years ago, Franz was not alive anymore,
and then I was appointed president of the Franz Sichel Foundation,
and we got the glasses here on loan from the Franz Sichel
Foundation. They own the glasses. We didn't want to buy them.
That would have been a very sizable investment. His collection is
worth, I don't know, probably something between $600,000 and a
million dollars. But we were very happy to see the exhibit that
carries Franz's name, and it will go to the De Young Museum In
Golden Gate Park here for permanent display.
42
Industry Organizations
Teiser: I wanted to ask you about the Wine Institute. Did you feel that it
did a good job educating the consumer, a matter you spoke of
yesterday?
Fromm: They did a good job while they had the means. Then they had to
stop it, because the [Wine Advisory Board] assessments were
discontinued, but the Wine Institute has many other important
functions. It looks out for the industry, and almost everybody in
the wine industry is a member of the Wine Institute. It takes care
of all the legal matters. As you know, every state has a different
law for alcoholic beverages, so we are not in that respect in the
United States. And there is a federal law. There are continuous
changes, continuous difficulties by smaller states that produce a
little wine that want to enact preferences and tax wines higher
from California.
You wouldn't think such things would exist in the Dnited
States, but under the change in the Constitution the states really
have the first right — it follows in many ways the guidelines of the
federal law. And then we have of course those state monopolies,
where only the state can sell wine and liquor, and they have not
been very helpful to the wine industry. It's a bureaucratic sys
tem, and it's been not good for the consumer by its limited choice
of offerings.
Teiser: Do the same or similar regulations apply to brandy?
Fromm: Yes. Whatever alcoholic beverages there are.
Teiser: I believe you served on a committee of the Wine Institue.
Fromm: Yes, I did serve on several committees years ago, but I never
wanted to be a director of the Wine Institute because actually it
is a producers' organization. Jack Welsch and some other people
from our organization were directors. I felt I had more impact in
talking through them.
John De Luca [president of the Wine Institute] is an
absolutely outstanding man. It is a very difficult job to balance
the various forces. You know, after all, Gallo is the largest
contributor to the Wine Institute.
Teiser: Has James McManus of the Brandy Advisory Board been a help to the
brandy industry?
Above Ernest Mittelberger, director of the Wine Museum of San Francisco, and
Alfred Fromm examine a wine jar of King Solomon's time that was given to the
museum by Teddy Kollek, mayor of Jerusalem.
Below, at a reception given at the museum, 'left to right, Philip Hiaring
publisher of Wines and Vines; Baron Philippe de Rothschild, guest of honor-
Alfred Fromm.
43
Fromm: Yes, he has. They were able to do certain advertising and tastings
that under federal lav we could not do. It has been a useful
organization.
*
Teiser: Is there now going to be a voluntary brandy organization to follow
the Brandy Advisory Board?
Fromm: We don't know yet. There probably will.
Teiser: Is there something more I have not thought of to ask you?
Fromm: Well, you know what the set-up is at the Christian Brothers. The
Mont La Salle Vineyards is owned by the De La Salle Institute. The
Mont La Salle Vineyards is a taxpaying organization, and the De La
Salle Institute is not. The money that the Brothers are making is
being used for the maintenance of several of the schools, and this
has been successful enough so that the Provincial has had enough
money out of the business so that they never had to close down any
of the schools. They are good educators, and any good school is
good, regardless of what faith you are. In the end if it's taught
with the right principles it only can do some good.
As you probably know, I have been a regent of St. Mary's
College for many years and was awarded an honorary degree in 1971.
My wife and I founded the Fromm Institute for Lifelong Learning at
the University of San Francisco ten years ago. Both my wife and I
got an honorary degree, Doctor of Public Service, for the formation
and funding of the Fromm Institute, because it was something new
and needed. It has become the most successful institute of its
kind in the United States. We educate retired people during the
daytime at an advanced university level in an age group from fifty
to nintey years. Students are taught exclusively by prominent
retired professors, chosen from the University of California, Stan
ford University, San Francisco State University, University of San
Francisco, and others.
Transcribers: Sam Middlebrooks and Lindy Berman
Final Typist: Ernest Galvan
TAPE GUIDE
Alfred Fromm
44
Interview 1: May 3, 1984
tape 1, side A
tape 1, side R
tape 2, side A
tape 2, side R
Interview 2: May 4, 1984
tape 3, side A
tape 3, side R
1
1
10
24
28
28
36
Regional Oral History Office
Room 486 The Bancroft Library
45
University of California
Berkeley, California 94720
Your full name
BIOGRAPHICAL INFORMATION
(Please print or write clearly)
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Date of birth I ' 3-3
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Birthplace
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Mother's full name fl fffl+t L.Q tL
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46
FROMM. ALFRED, disibf . co. cue.; b. Kitimien, Germany. Feb.
23. 1905; s Mu and Mathilda (Maier) F.; student Viticulture! Acid .
1920; LH.D (hon.), St Mary's Coll., 1974. D.Public Service (hon.).
U. San Francisco; m Hanna Gruenbauro, July 3, 1936;
children— David George. Carolynn Anne. Came to U.S.. 1931.
naturalized. 1943. Export dir. N Fromm, Bingcn Germany, 1924-33;
v.p. Picker-Unu Importers. Inc., N.Y.C, 1937-44; e«ec. v.p. Fromm
A Sichel, Inc., N.Y.C, aUo San Francoco. 1944-45. prei.. 19*5-73.
chnm. bd . chief eiec omcer, 1973 — . dir. Joieph E. Scafram A Sons,
Inc. Dir Calif. Med Clinic for Piychotherapy. San Francuco, 1964 — .
Mem. nat- council Eleanor RooKvclt Meml. Found, N.Y.C; trmtee
San Francisco Conservatory Music; relent St Mary's Coll., Morata,
v.p. Jewish Nat Fund, bd. din. San Francisco Opera Assn., founder,
pro. Wine Mus., San Francisco. Clubs: Concordia, Commonwealth
(San Francisco). Contbr. articles prod joon Home: 150 El Camino
del Mar San FraociscoCA 94121 Office: 655 Beach St San Francisco
CA 94109
From Who 's Who in America
42nd Edition, 1982-83
47
100 MILLION EMPTY GLASSES
Address by Alfred Fromm, Executive Vice President, Fromm and Sichel, Inc.,
San Francisco, New York, and Chicago, World Sales Agents for
The Christian Brothers Wines, Champagnes and Brandy, before the
Advertising Club of San Diego, National Wine Week Luncheon, at the
El Cortez Hotel, San Diego, October 16, 1957
Mr. Chairman, honored guests, members and friends of the Advertising Club
of San Diego, ladies and gentlemen:
It is my great pleasure to bring you the warm and friendly greetings of
California's 35>000 grape and wine growers — growers who, at this very moment,
ore busily gathering in the vintage.
For this is the peak of the harvest season, and in the hills and valleys
of our great State, from San Diego to Eureka, from the coast to the Sierras, busy
hands move the crop from vine to vat amid the fresh aroma of the bubbling Juice.
And this, too, is National Wine Week — set aside each year at this time
by official State proclamation to honor one of California's most important indus
tries and to focus public national attention upon the products of our abundant
vines.
I am most grateful for this opportunity to speak to you of wine in the
historic City of San Diego. It was almost at our very door step here, beside the
Mission bearing your fair city's name, that the first wine grape vineyards were
planted by Father Junipero Serra just 186 years ago, marking the birth of grape and
wine culture in California.
Wine, it has been said, is one of man's greatest gifts, bestowed by Nature
in one of her more loving moods. To the truth of this, we of the wine industry
most emphatically subscribe. It is sometimes difficult to be prosaic about the
product by which we live --a product extolled in Bible and legend, in verse and
narrative, in song and art. Yes, even completely outside of our industry there are
tens of thousands of men and women in all of life's walks who regularly foregather
to pay homage and tribute to the vintager's artistry. To mention but a few:
The Wine and Food Societies, The Societies of the Medical Friends of Wine, The Wine
Appreciation Societies, The Gourmet Societies, and many more. They form the inner,
active circle of an ever growing public on whom the quality producers of California's
premium wines and champagnes largely depend. They do not represent, however, the
great American public whose attitude toward wine, we were glad to have confirmed in
a recent study by opinion analyst F.I mo Roper, is friendly and favorable. The great
American public, Roper found, thinks of wine in most cordial receptive terms but
they think of it as something special, to be enjoyed not just every day but chiefly
on special occasions.
We produce in California a wide range of good wines in different price
classes. Coming from an old wine family in Germany myself, I can tell you with all
my conviction that the average wine of California is consistently better than the
average wine of Italy, France, or Germany. Too, wine is made here under more
advanced scientific and sanitary conditions than is the case in Europe.
48
•
I am not talking about the very small quantity of fine European vintage
wines that are produced once in a while in good years and due to their rarity have
to be sold at very fancy prices, but about all other European wines. This is not
only a personal conviction but a fact that has been proven time and again in an
extended series of blind wine tastings. People of all classes and tastes from
layman to connoisseur have participated in these tastings, and have not only, in
the majority of cases, failed to identify the origin of the wine as being European
or Californian but, furthermore, the overwhelming majority have expressed their
taste preference for California premium wines.
We are proud and happy as Americans of the high score California has had
in these tastings. Most heartening to us was the average cost of the California
wines which were subject to these tastings and which were purchased in stores through*
out the country. Their cost averaged $1.35 per bottle of wine, whereas the European
wines cost an average of $3*57 per bottle. The average cost of the California
premium champagnes, which scored so heavily over the champagnes of our French col
leagues, was i?k.kl compared to $6.83.
i The growing of fine wines in California has been, and is being, spearheaded
by the producers of premium wines. None of these is a volume producer and their
aggregate production amounts to only about 5$ of California's total production, but
it is a significant group indeed from the standpoint of pioneering the name of
California as one of the world's great wine producing regions.
However, the fact that wine has not found the place it rightfully deserves
in the American pattern of living is not caused by economic factors. The large
producers in California furnish to the consumer a worthwhile product at very reason
able cost, and even the finest premium wines are within the reach of millions of
people.
What, then, is our problem? A few figures will give you the idea: Wine
consumption in Western Europe varies from 15 to 30 gallons per capita annually. In
the United States, on the other hand, the figure is only 0.9. What's more, beer
consumption in this country is a whopping 16 gallons per capita, coffee 27 gallons,
and even soft drinks are consumed at the rate of 12 gallons per inhabitant. In
California the situation is, of course, much better than in the rest of the country
for here we consume close to 3 gallons per capita annually, but even here we feel we
have not begun to tap the potential of the market for wines. Looking again at the
country as a whole, our best estimates tell us that 85$ of all the wine is consumed
by roughly 15$ of the population or, conversely, that 85$ of the people consume only
15$ of the wine. You do not need a slide rule to see what would happen if we could
bring these 85$ who now use little or no wine to consume only as much as the remain
ing 15*.
Actually, we as an Industry have been hard at work to develop a larger
market for wine In this country. We are critical of ourselves though, and engage in
continuous self examination as to what we can do. The problem of increased con
sumption has been tackled on seven broad fronts, as follows:
First, we developed several new wine types that have found high public
favor, particularly with people who seldom had used wine before. Outstanding among
these new type-, are. the mellow red w:.nes often called "Vino", and the gay, colorful
Rose's whose popularity is increasing rapidly.
Second, we took wine out of the category of a commodity and began to create
wine brand consciousness. This was done by greatly intensifying our efforts in the
areas of merchandising and advertising.
- 2 -
49
Third, we stepped up industry trade educational work with store keepers and
clerks, rest aur ant eurs and waiters, and our distributors and their salesmen. The
Wine Institute and the Wine Advisory Board have contributed importantly to the
success of this phase of the program.
Fourth, we broadened and extended industry public relations work wlwh
consumers. The Wine Institute's Study Course — in which I would urge all of you
to enroll -- has been of significant value in communicating facts about wine to the
public. Recently the public relations firm of Hill and Knovlton has been retained
by the Industry to assist in developing public interest in our wines, particularly
with people who mold public opinion.
Fifth, we have undertaken many new research projects in such diverse fields
as wine economics, consumer taste preferences, consumer attitudes, the great benefits
of wine in the field of medicine, and numerous others. These have helped materially
to improve our understanding of the industry and some of this research may one day
open up whole new vistas of wine as an integral part of the American way of life.
At this point, it is befitting to express the Industry's gratitude to the University
of California for its unselfish devotion and high standards of achievement in many
of these research projects.
Sixth, and most important of all, we intensified our work in quality
improvement in all phases. Large acreages of improved grape varieties were planted
to produce finer wines. Lessons learned from intensive research were applied to the
handling of grapes, crushing and fermentation. Larger and larger inventories of
wines were set aside for aging each year to create a solid foundation of improved
quality on which to build the increased sales we confidently expect.
And, finally, we invested many millions of dollars in wine production, aging
and bottling facilities and equipment that are the most modern to be found anywhere
in the world. All of these things were done -- and, for that matter, are continuing
to be done — to bring the consumer the best possible product we are capable of
producing. Truly, it can be said that California wines in all price classes today
are of distinctly higher quality than ever before in history.
These efforts have paid off handsomely, particularly in three products of
the wine industry — Champagne, Vermouth and Brandy.
Sales of California champagne have risen 150$ in the last 10 years, compared
to about 35$ for table wines and less than 10$ for dessert wines. The reasons for
this remarkable growth are quite clear. We have improved our quality tremendously,
heightened the attractiveness of our packaging, developed strong point-of-sale
techniques and kept prices at moderate levels.
While California champagnes were tripling in volume, imports increased less
than half as much during these past ten years. People discovered that California
champagne quality is second to none in the world — including the choicest imports
selling at double or more the California champagne price. Today, American champagnes
outsell the foreign product almost three to one and the spread is widening.
Much the same thing has happened with Vermouth. Right after Repeal in 1933*
and for years thereafter, Prance and Italy supplied practically all the United States
Vermouth demand. Now the pattern is changing rapidly. California vermouth sales
have more than doubled in the past ten years and are fast catching up with the import
volume. The American public has learned — just as they learned with champagne •-
that the California product is tops in the vermouth field and twice as good a buy as
the import.
• 3 -
50
So, too, with California brandy. Only even more so, because the California
product now sells at two and one-half times the rate of foreign brandy. Here is a
shining example of quality improvement, merchandising and brand development paying
off. California brandy is achieving fast-growing recognition as the most versatile,
the most pleasing of all spirit beverages. Patiently aged for years under United
States Government supervision, California brandy is enjoying the greatest market
advances in its long history -- and the outlook is for more of the same.
You will now have realized that we are faced with an inherent paradox: on
the one hand we are proud of the association of wine in the minds of the public as
a contribution to better living. Yet, on the other hand, we must fit wine into the
picture of hamburger, apple pie, and the general pattern of everyday American living.
Ladies and gentlemen, the necessity of resolving this paradox is what we as an
industry bring before you. And it is only you who can work with us on this job.
To do this we must, through you, communicate to the American public the good and
simple facts about wine. We must convey the fact that wine is a food beverage, to
be enjoyed with other foods, or just by itself, and for its own goodness. It must
help to motivate the millions of people who are friendly toward wine to emerge from
their apathy, and to discover wine's pleasures.
In which direction should our advertising be channeled?
Today, there are uncounted millions of younger people — the newly marrieds,
the thirty and forty-year olds -- women especially -• who know little or nothing
about wine. Many of them yearn to know, or would if their attention were directed
to the virtues of wine.
Wine's most important place, however, is in the home, on the family table.
Its pleasurable and temperate use will set the pattern for the generation now
growing up and a civilized approach to wine when they become adults. In this area,
more than in any other, the future of the wine industry rests.
Effective advertising can help sell a worthy product or service. And wine
is no exception. At this point you are in a key position for you are the connecting
link between our industry, ready and anxious to serve the public, and a public
enjoying an unsurpassed standard of living, with more leisure time than ever in
which to enjoy the good things of life.
We realize that advertising alone cannot solve our problems but it must
carry a very important share of the common effort.
I think I speak for all of us in the wine industry in saying that we today
have a very different idea of the relationship between advertising and our work.
Whereas only a few years ago, an advertising agency meant to us only an intermediary ,
we realize today the many other vital services that the advertising profession
offers us and we gratefully avail ourselves of them.
We now work closely with the advertising agency of the Wine Advisory Board,
Roy Durstine Co., and the agencies for our respective brands in all matters concern
ing merchandising, such as packaging, the development of trade marks, point of pur
chase material, promotional literature, etc., and even production has often been
influenced considerably by the advertising profession who is in daily touch with the
consumer, his needs, and his preferences.
Last year wher I had the pleasure of speaking during National Wine Week to
the Advertising Club of Los Angeles, I stuck my neck out in predicting a 100$ in
crease in wine consumption within the following five years. I am happy to say a yeeu
later that my head is still on my shoulders, and it is my hope to keep it there for
the next four years. There is no telling how far the wine business can go in this
country, and I believe that you and we together will succeed in fashioning the key
to unlock the cabinets and shelves throughout the Nation, behind which 100 Million
Empty Glasses stand ready to be filled with the good wine of our own State.
~
1882 CENTENNIAL 1982
™ CHRISTIAN BROTHERS.
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
For further information contact: Ron Batori
Director of Public Relations
Mont La Salle Vineyards
(707) 226-5566
NAPA, CALIFORNIA, September 22, 1983. . . Brother David
Brennan, F.S.C., President and Chairman of the Board of Mont
La Salle Vineyards has announced an agreement to acquire for
an undisclosed sum certain business assets of Fromm & Sichel,
Inc., a wholly owned subsidiary of Joseph E. Seagram & Sons,
Inc., related to the distribution of THE CHRISTIAN BROTHERS
brandy and wines as well as the facilities for the aging and
bottling of brandy.
The acquisition is being made by a newly formed company
in which the majority of common stock is to be owned by
senior management of Mont La Salle Vineyards and the newly
formed company, and the balance by Mont La Salle Vineyards,
producers of THE CHRISTIAN BROTHERS brandy and wine. In
making this announcement, Brother David said,
"The new company, which will retain the name
Fromm & Sichel, -Inc., will provide the foundation
for growth in the marketing and sales of THE
CHRISTIAN BROTHERS brandy and wine.
more. . .
THE CHRISTIAN BROTHERS MONT LA SALLE VINEYARDS PO BOX 420 NAPA CALIFORNIA 94SS9 707-226-S566
Page 2.
Brother David has also announced that R. Paul Toeppen is
Chairman of the Board of Directors and Chief Executive Officer
of the new company. Allen M. Nirenstein will be appointed
Executive Vice President/Sales.
Brother David added,
"Importantly, the firm of Albert E. Killeen
& Associates, Inc. has been retained to direct
the structuring and implementation of marketing,
sales, merchandising, promotional and advertising
plans, and the development and positioning of new
products.
Albert E. Killeen, President of the firm that bears
his name, was formerly Vice Chairman of THE COCA
COLA COMPANY, and President and Chief Executive
Officer of THE WINE SPECTRUM."
In concluding, Brother David said,
"The formation of the new company, along with new
senior management at the winery and significant
capital improvements currently in progress, provide
a strong foundation for the resurgence and position
for growth of THE CHRISTIAN BROTHERS brandy and
wines. "
f-'f «
BDB/bhs
53
A. R. Morrow (label) brandy, 34
Amerine, Maynard A., 27
Archinal, Herman, 38
Armacost, Sam, 23
Bank of America, 20, 23
Beaulieu Vineyard, 9
Bisceglia winery, Fresno, 30
brandy, 5, 16-20, 32-35, 36, 42
Brandy Advisory Board, 32, 42
Brandy Association of California, 37
Bronfman, Samuel, iv, 19, 20-21
California Wine Association, 34
Christian Brothers labels, iv, 11, 12, 13, 14, 19
Christian Brothers, 10-43
City of Paris department store, 6
Cresta Blanca wines, 13
Davies, Marion, 6
De La Salle Institute, 43
De Luca, John, 42
de Young Museum, 41
Distillers Corporation-Seagrams Limited. See Seagrams
Feist and Reinach, Bingen-on-the Rhine, 2
Ferroggiaro, Fred, 23
Franz W. Sichel Foundation, 41
Fromm and Sichel, 19, 21, 22-24, 26, 29-42 passim
Fromm Institute for Lifelong Learning, 43
Fromm, Hanna Gruenbaum (Mrs. Alfred), 8, 39, 43
Fromm, Josef, iv, 1
Fromm, Max (father of Alfred Fromm), 1-3, 24-25
Fromm, N. company, Kitzingen, Germany, 1-3
Fromm, Nathan, 1
Fromm, Norman, iv, 25 ,39
Fromm, Paul, 4
Gallo, Ernest, 32
Gallo, [E. & J.] winery, 13, 16, 32-33
German wine industry, 1-7, 11
Greystone Cellars, 30-31
Guembel, Joseph, 2
Guymon, James F., 35
Hearst, William Randolph, 4-6
Hoffman, John, 38
In Celebration of Wine and Life, 41
Italian Swiss CoTony wines, 13, 16
Jews under Nazi regime, 14
John, Brother, iv, 10, 11, 27, 28, 37, 38
Joseph E. Seagram and Sons. See Seagrams
Laemmle, Carl, 4
Lamb, Richard B., 41
54
Martini, Louis M. , winery, 9
Masson, Paul, [Vineyards] iv, 9, 24-28, 29, 40
McManus, James, 42-43
Meyer, Otto, iv, 17. 25, 26
Mirassou [Vineyards], 25, 26, 28
Mittelberger, Ernest, 40-41
Mont La Salle Vineyards. See Christian Brothers
Mt. Tivy, iv, 18, 38
Mrak, Emil, 27
"Music in the Vineyards," 25
Napa Valley, 10, 30
Nazi regime in Germany, 7, 8, 9, 14
Nirenstein, Allen (Al), 36
Nury, Mike, 29
phylloxera, 26-27
Picker-Linz, 4, 8-9, 12, 19, 21-23, 26, 40
prices for wine, 12-13, 14, 21, 25
Prohibition, 3-4, 5, 9
prorate, 16
Ray, Martin, 9, 24
Remy Martin [et Cie.], 35
Riddell, James, 29
Roma [Wine Company], 13, 16
Roper, Elmer, poll, 15
Salinas Valley, 25, 26-28
Schenley Distillers, 13
Schramsberg Vineyard, 34-35
Seagrams [Distillers Corporation-Seagrams Limited and
subsidiaries], iv, 18, 19, 20-21, 23, 24, 25,
29, 35, 37, 38-39, 40
Sichel, Franz, 19, 20, 21, 22-23, 24, 41
St. Mary's College, 10, 43
St. Regis Vineyards, 30
stills, 17-20 '
Taylor Wine Company, New York, 12
Timothy, Brother, iv, 10, 11, 28, 31, 37-38
University of California, Davis, 27, 35
University of San Francisco, 43
Verdier, Paul, 6
Vie-Del Company, 29, 37
Weinbau-Schule, Geisenheim, 2-3
Welsch, Jack, 32, 42
Wente Bros. , 9, 28
Wine Advisory Board, 42
Wine Institute, 42
Wine Museum of San Francisco, iv, 38
Winkler, Albert J. , 27
Wong, Worley, 39
World War II years, 12, 14-15
55
WINES MENTIONED IN THE INTERVIEW
burgundy, 11, 15
champagne, 25, 27-28, 31
Johannisberg Riesling, 4, 26
port, 12
Riesling, 11
sauterne, 11, 15
Schloss Johannisberg [Riesling] 1921 Auslese, 4
sherry, 12
Steinberger Kabinet Trockenbeerenauslese, 1911, 5
GRAPES MENTIONED IN THE INTERVIEW
Chardonnay, 26
Sauvignon blanc, 26
Semillon, 26
Thompson Seedless, 18
Ruth Teiser
Born in Portland, Oregon; came to the Bay
Area in 1932 and has lived here ever since.
Stanford University, B.A. , M.A. in English;
further graduate work in Western history.
Newspaper and magazine writer in San Francisco
since 1943, writing on local history and
business and social life of the Bay Area.
Book reviewer for the San Francisco Chronicle,
1943-1974.
Co-author of Winemaking in California, a
history, 1982.
An interviewer-editor in the Regional Oral
History Office since 1965.
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