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s 

Universit)'  of  California  •  Berkeley 


University  of  California  Bancroft  Library/Berkeley 

Regional  Oral  History  Office 


Ethel  Duffy  Turner 
WRITERS  AND  REVOLUTIONISTS 


An  Interview  Conducted  by 
Ruth  Teiser 


Berkeley 
1967 


THE  tt 


Mrs.  Ethel  Duffy  Turner 
Photographs  taken  during  interview  August  10,  1966 


Reproduction  rights  reserved  by  Ruth  Teiser 


All  uses  of  this  manuscript  are  covered  by  an  agreement 
between  the  Regents  of  the  University  of  California  and 
Ethel  Duffy  Turner,  dated  17  February  1967.   The 
manuscript  is  thereby  made  available  for  research  purposes. 
All  literary  rights  in  the  manuscript,  including  the  right 
to  publish,  are  reserved  to  The  Bancroft  Library  of  the 
University  of  California  at  Berkeley.   No  part  of  the 
manuscript  may  be  quoted  for  publication  without  the 
written  permission  of  the  Director  of  The  Bancroft  Library 
of  the  University  of  California  at  Berkeley. 


INTRODUCTION 

Ethel  Duffy  Turner  was  born  on  April  21,  1885,  in  San  Pablo, 
California,  the  eldest  of  the  seven  Duffy  children  who  grew  to  maturity. 
When  she  was  ten,  her  father  became  a  guard  at  San  Quentin  state  prison, 
thus  beginning  the  long  and  constructive  association  of  the  Duffy  family 
with  that  institution.  Mrs.  Turner's  years  there,  at  grammar  school  on 
the  prison  grounds,  then  high  school  at  San  Rafael,  and  finally  college 
at  the  University  of  California,  formed  the  background  for  her  novel, 
One-Way  Ticket.   Her  college  career  closed  a  year  before  graduation 
when  she  married  the  twenty- six-year -old  Socialist  journalist,  John 
Kenneth  Turner,  who  later  wrote  Barbarous  Mexico. 

Mrs.  Turner's  adult  life  has  been  divided  into  two  parts.   During 
the  years  immediately  following  her  marriage,  and  again  in  recent  years, 
her  main  interest  has  been  Mexico  and  its  politics.   The  period  between, 
spent  in  Carmel  and  San  Francisco  for  the  most  part,  was  devoted  primarily 
to  literary  pursuits.   Her  interest  in  writing  began  in  childhood,  was 
recognized  in  high  school,  and  continued  at  the  University.   In  San 
Francisco  she  contributed  columns  to  the  Bulletin,  edited  a  poetry  magazine, 
and  wrote  not  only  the  novel  mentioned  above  but  also  a  novella,  and  short 
stories  published  in  Story  magazine. 

Mrs.  Turner's  writing  ability  had  also  been  put  to  use  in  the  years 
before  the  Mexican  Revolution  when  she  participated  in  publishing  a 
magazine  devoted  to  the  Mexican  liberal  cause,  then  wrote  a  regular  page 
in  a  Los  Angeles  weekly  newspaper  committed  to  Mexican  revolutionary  aims. 


ii 


In  those  years,  as  she  recounts  in  this  interview,  Mrs.  Turner  worked 
in  many  ways  for  the  Revolution,  and  since  her  return  to  Mexico  in  recent 
years  she  has  been  honored  for  those  early  activities. 

In  1960  the  Mexican  State  of  MichoacSn  published  Mrs.  Turner's 
biography  of  the  Revolutionary  leader  Ricardo  Flores  Mag6n.   Other 
recent  writings  include  three  essays  referred  to  in  this  interview, 
which  Mrs.  Turner  has  placed  in  the  Bancroft  Library:   "Early  Literary 
Carmel,"  "George  Sterling  in  Carmel,"  and  "George  Sterling  in  San  Francisco." 

The  interview  was  conduced  in  three  sessions  in  Mrs.  Turner's 
cheerful  adobe  bedroom-study  in  the  hilltop  home  of  her  daugher,  Mrs. 
Juanita  Lusk,  at  San  Anselmo,  California.   This  was  during  a  visit  by 
Mrs.  Turner  to  California  from  her  home  in  Cuernavaca.   Between  the 
first  session,  on  July  27,  1966,  and  the  third,  on  August  10,  Mrs.  Turner 
began  work  on  the  book  which  she  discusses  in  the  interview,  an  account 
of  the  participation  of  Americans  in  the  preparation  for  and  execution  of 
the  Mexican  Revolution. 

When  interviewed,  Mrs.  Turner  spoke  clearly  and  animatedly,  making  every 
effort  to  recall  events  accurately  and  explain  them  clearly.   She  checked 
the  final  typescript  carefully,  making  only  a  few  corrections  and  additions, 
understanding  the  value  of  preserving  the  spontaneity  of  the  spoken  word. 

The  Regional  Oral  History  Office  was  establish  to  tape  record 
autobiographical  interviews  with  persons  prominent  in  recent  California 


iii 


history.   The  office  is  under  the  direction  of  Mrs.  Willa  Baum,  and 
under  the  administrative  supervision  of  the  Director  of  the  Bancroft 
Library. 


31  March  1967 

Regional  Oral  History  Office 
Room  486  The  Bancroft  Library 
University  of  California 
Berkeley,  California 


Ruth  Teiser 
Interviewer 


iv 


CONTENTS 


INTRODUCTION  i 

Mrs.  Ethel  Duffy  Turner  -  Interviews  No.  1  and  2, 
July  27,  1966  and  August  1,  1966 

FAMILY  AND  EARLY  YEARS  1 

JOHN  KENNETH  TURNER  7 

LOS  ANGELES  AND  THE  MEXICAN  LIBERALS  10 

BARBAROUS  MEXICO  14 

PRE -REVOLUTION  EVENTS  20 

Interview  No.  3  -  August  10,  1966 

JACK  AND  CHARMIAN  LONDON  25 

CARMEL  AND  MEXICO  AGAIN  29 

CARMEL  FRIENDS  AND  ACQUAINTANCES  33 

SAN  FRANCISCO  39 

RETURN  TO  MEXICO  49 

PARTIAL  INDEX  56 


Mrs.  Ethel  Duffy  Turner  -  Interviews  No.  1  and  2,  July  27, 
1966  and  August  1,  1966* 

FAMILY  AND  EARLY  YEARS 
Turner:   I  am  now  living  in  Mexico  under  a  permiso  de  cortesta,  a 

courtesy  permission.   This  is  granted  upon  request  to  writers, 
especially  those  who  are  writing  about  Mexico  in  a  friendly  way. 
In  addition  to  the  writing  that  I  have  done  down  there,  I  am 
considered  a  precursora,  which  means  a  forerunner  of  the  Mexican 

Revolution.   This  gives  me  prestige  in  Mexico. 

i 

Teiser:  Did  you  apply  for  the  permiso  de  cortesia? 

Turner:  No.   Friends  of  mine  are  always  doing  things  for  me  and  they 

handled  it  completely.   I  didn't  lift  a  finger.   It  has  to  be 
renewed  every  six  months,  but  it  is  being  renewed  in  the  same 
way  by  my  friends. 

Teiser:   You  don't  have  to  go  to  the  border? 

Turner:   I  didn't  have  to  do  a  thing;  I  didn't  even  have  to  sign  my  name, 
which  amazed  me. 

Teiser:  Were  you  actually  in  Mexico  before  the  Revolution? 

Turner:   I  was  there  in  1909.   I  was  the  wife  of  John  Kenneth  Turner,  who 
wrote  Barbarous  Mexico.   But  at  the  time  of  the  Revolution,  in 
November,  1910,  we  were  in  Los  Angeles.   The  leaders  of  the 
Liberal  Party,  which  was  the  party  that  actually  kept  the  revolutionary 
spirit  going  with  two  former  revolutions  that  were  both  betrayed-- 
they  were  sent  to  prison  for  violating  the  neutrality  laws  in 
connection  with  one  of  those  revolutions. 


Material  in  these  two  interviews  was  slightly  rearranged  to 
provide  greater  subject  continuity. 


2 

Turner:   The  leader  was  Ricardo  Flores  Magdn.   His  fame  is  increasing  in 
Mexico,  where  for  a  long  time  it  was  deliberately  suppressed. 
John  met  Ricardo  while  he  was  a  prisoner  in  the  Los  Angeles  County 
Jail.   Ricardo  told  John  about  the  atrocities  of  Porfirio  Diaz. 
So  it  developed  that  John,  who  was  a  newspaper  man,  went  to  Mexico 
and  saw  these  atrocities  for  himself.  That's  a  big  story,  though. 

Teiser:  Before  we  come  to  that,  may  we  go  back  to  your  early  years  in 
this  area? 

Turner:   I  was  born  in  San  Pablo,  Contra  Costa  County,  in  1885.   I  am 

really  anciient,  you  know.   I  am  81.  My  father  was  a  farmer  and 
also  justice  of  the  peace  in  that  little  pioneer  town.  My  mother 
was  born  there.   Her  family  had  crossed  the  plains,  and  my  father's 
family  had  gone  from  New  York  to  Panama,  then  crossed  the  Isthmus 
of  Panama  and  got  another  boat  to  San  Francisco. 

Teiser:  When  did  your  father's  family  come  to  San  Francisco? 

Turner:  Dad  was  a  year  old  when  they  arrived.   That  was  in  1854. 

Teiser:  What  was  your  father's  name? 

Turner:  William  Joseph  Duffy.   The  Duffy  family  is  well  known  in  Marin 
County.  My  father  used  to  tell  many  stories  about  his  life. 
Fortunately  my  sister  Alma  [Mrs.  Zang]  took  down  these  stories, 
so  we'll  have  them  when  we  get  around  to  writing  "The  Duffy 
Family,"  a  project  in  the  near  future. 

Teiser:  What  was  your  mother's  family  name? 

Turner:   Palmer.   My  mother  was  Eugenia  Amanda  Palmer.   My  sisters  and  I 

have  just  finished  the  Palmer-Barrett  genealogy;   it's  the  account 
of  my  mother's  ancestors.   I  have  been  reading  proof.   This  is 
going  to  be  a  beautiful  book.  We  have  so  much  on  the  family. 


Teiser:  Do  you  have  an  overland  diary  of  your  mother's  family? 

Turner:  No,  it  has  been  a  matter  of  using  material  that  other  members 
of  the  family  had  done  research  for,  and  I  added  to  it  and 
assembled  it.  My  sister,  Mrs.  Grace  Zubler,  has  completed  the 
descendants.   It  has  been  a  big  job.   I'm  glad  it's  finished. 
But  I  wanted  to  leave  that  behind  me  when  I  go.  My  brother 
Bill,  William  Joseph  Duffy,  Jr.,  of  Woodland,  is  having  it 
printed  in  Davis.   He  is  a  very  successful  farmer  up  there, 
especially  in  rice. 

I  was  brought  up  in  San  Pablo  until  the  age  of  ten.   Small 
farmers  didn't  make  much  money  in  those  days,  so  my  father  got 
a  job  on  the  guard  line  in  San  Quentin.  We  moved  to  San  Quentin; 
all  my  later  childhood  and  teens,  I  lived  in  San  Quentin  and  went 
to  the  San  Rafael  High  School.   I  went  to  the  University  when  I 
graduated  from  high  school. 

Teiser:   I  read  with  great  interest  and  pleasure  your  novel,  One-Way  Ticket, 
and  I  wondered  how  much  of  that  was  either  autobiographical  or 
drawn  on  fact. 

Turner:  Well,  the  background  was  true,  but  the  story  wasn't.   Some  of  the 
characters  were  drawn  from  life,  but  not  the  main  story.   That 
was  invented. 

Teiser:   I  wondered  if  the  character  Captain  Bourn  was  based  upon  your 
father  at  all. 

Turner:   Yes,  but  it  wasn't  my  father's  position. .. .nor  very  closely  on  my 
father.   Nor  the  mother  either.   It  wasn't  my  family  literally. 
But  it  was  more  or  less  the  way  a  child  in  San  Quentin  was  brought 
up  and  thought.   Most  of  the  ideas  were  authentic. 


4 

Teiser:  Did  you  feel  yourself  somewhat  apart  when  you  were  a  child 
growing  up  there? 

Turner:  Apart  from...? 

Teiser:  From  other  people  and  other  children  in  the  community? 

Turner:  A  little.   I  was  that  type  of  child,  I  guess. 

Teiser:  Not  from  circumstances,  but  from  within  yourself? 

Turner:   Yes,  that  type  of  child. 

Teiser:   Did  you  have  a  large  family? 

Turner:  We  were  seven,  when  I  was  home.   I  was  the  eldest.  My  youngest 

sister  hadn't  been  born.  My  mother  had  eight  children.   One  died 
in  San  Pablo,  so  we  were  seven  in  San  Quentin.  My  brother, 
Clinton,  as  you  probably  know,  was  born  there,  and  all  his  back 
ground  was  San  Quentin.   He  became  the  famous  progressive  warden 
in  a  time  of  the  old-fashioned  way  of  treating  men,  and  he  changed 
that. 

Teiser:  Are  any  others  of  your  family  in  prison  work? 

Turner:  My  sister,  Grace,  married  a  man  who  was  superintendent  of  the 

jute  mill,  and  she  lived  on  the  state-owned  grounds.   She  after 
wards  moved  into  the  house  that  we  lived  in  when  we  moved  there 
from  San  Pablo;  it  was  enlarged.  And  just  last  year  she  left  there. 
She  spent  most  of  her  life  in  San  Quentin.   I  didn't,  you  see.  I 
went  to  the  University  and  I  met  John  Kenneth  Turner,  and  we  were 
married  in  March,  1905. 

Teiser:  What  was  it  like  to  be  a  student  at  the  University  then? 

Turner:  I  met  a  man  I  liked  very  much,  Professor  Robert  Sandels--this 
isn't  too  important  about  him,  except  that  he  took  me  over  to 
Bancroft  Library  about  a  year  ago.  He  asked  me  about  my  impression 


5 

Turner:   of  the  University  now.   I  said:   "There  is  no  space.   There  was 
so  much  space  then;  and  beautiful  landscaping  came  a  little  bit 
later.   Now  there  are  buildings  all  over  the  place.   You  can't  see 
anything  but  buildings." 

Teiser:  Where  did  you  live  as  a  student? 

Turner:   I  lived  in  a  boarding  house  on  Durant  Avenue,  for  only  one  semester. 
I  was  waiting  on  table.   Then  I  got  a  California  scholarship  so  I 
was  able  to  live  at  home  in  San  Quentin.   I  had  to  leave  at  5:15  a.m. 
on  the  bus  to  Greenbrae,  then  take  a  train  to  Tiburon,  then  a  ferry 
boat  to  San  Francisco,  then  a  Key  Route  ferry,  then  a  train  to 
Berkeley.  A  friend  of  mine,  Eleanor  Gilogly  of  San  Rafael,  in  the 
class  above  me,  did  this  too.   She  caught  the  train  in  San  Rafael, 
and  didn't  have  the  bus  trip.   I  saw  her  at  lunch  the  other  day 
at  my  sister  Alma's,  and  we  talked  about  it.  We  had  quite  a  trip. 
But  when  you're  young  you  don't  mind  getting  up  early  and  all  this 
traveling  and  getting  home  at  eight  o'clock  and  having  to  study. 

Teiser:  You  were  an  English  major? 

Turner:  Yes. 

Teiser:  Had  you  always  been  interested  in  writing? 

Turner:   Oh  yes,  always.   I  can't  remember  when  I  wasn't.   Even  in  high  school. 
The  way  I  went  to  college. .. .of  course  I  wanted  to,  but  it  looked 
impossible.   There  was  a  professor  from  Gal.... They  used  to  go,  I 
don't  know  whether  they  still  do  or  not,  but  they  used  to  examine 
the  high  schools.   This  professor  was  Hugo  Karl  Schilling  of  the 
German  Department,  a  highly  cultured  person.   He  saw  me  in  the 
different  classes—not  in  mathematics  I  am  sure,  because  he  would 
have  changed  his  mind.   But  he  saw  me  in  the  English  class, 


6 

Turner:   especially,  and  in  history  and  in  the  languages.   He  took  our 
high  school  principal  aside  and  said,  "That  girl  should  go  to 
college."  The  high  school  principal  said,  "She  will."  He 
arranged  that  I  would  go  over  there  and  wait  on  table  in  this 
particular  place.  And  that  is  how  I  got  into  college. 


JOHN  KENNETH  TURNER 

Teiser:  Was  John  Kenneth  Turner  a  special  student  at  the  University? 

Turner:   Yes.   He  took  special  courses.   He  had  been  a  school  teacher. 

Teiser:  What  was  his  background? 

Turner:   He  came  of  an  interesting  family.   He  was  born  in  Portland,  Oregon. 
His  grandfather,  Clinton  Kelly,  had  traveled  across  the  plains  as 
an  itinerant  Methodist  minister.   He  was  going  to  Oregon  where 
they  were  opening  up  new  country.   Portland  didn't  exist  then. 
It  was  about  '49,  I  guess.  As  they  neared  the  Sierra  Nevadas, 
scouts  came  and  said  gold  had  been  discovered  in  California. 
About  half  of  his  caravan  left  to  go  to  California,  but  he  went 
on  to  Portland.   If  they  don't  call  him  the  founder,  he  was  one 
of  the  founders  of  Portland,  Oregon.   John's  father,  Enoch  Turner, 
married  Laura  Kelly;  he  was  a  printer  on  the  Portland  Oregonian. 
When  John  was  young,  maybe  about  seven  or  eight,  they  moved  to 
California  near  Tulare,  where  they  farmed.   John  became,  as  I 
said,  a  schoolteacher.   He  was  also  a  newspaper  man. 

Teiser:  Where  did  he  first  work  on  a  newspaper? 

Turner:   You've  got  me  there!   He  later  worked  on  the  Fresno  Republican, 
under  Chester  Rowell. 

Teiser:  Was  this  after  college,  after  you  were  married? 

Turner:  Well,  he  had  this  job  before  we  were  married,  but  after  we  were 
married  he  worked  there. 

Teiser:  Was  he  at  that  early  age  a  liberal? 

Turner:   Oh,  fiery!   He  was  a  Socialist.   He  had  gone  to  Los  Angeles  at  the 
age  of  sixteen  and  had  met  very  active  members  of  the  Socialist 
Party.   He  was  seven  years  older  than  I  was,  but  he  seemed  a  lot 


8 

Turner:   older  than  that.   I  seemed  young.   I  was  rather  childlike. 

Teiser:  At  the  time  of  your  marriage  you  left  college? 

Turner:   Yes,  we  went  to  Fresno  and  he  worked  on  the  Republican.   Then  we 

went  to  San  Francisco,  and  we  were  there  at  the  time  of  the  earth 
quake  . 

Teiser:  Where  were  you  that  morning? 

Turner:  We  were  staying  in  a  hotel  at  Sixth  and  Market.   I  was  thrown 

out  of  bed,  I  remember.   The  plumbing  was  all  twisted  and  torn. 
We  managed  to  get  down  the  stairs.  We  were  adventurous  and 
wandered  all  over  the  central  part  of  the  city.  We  saw  ruins  and 
dead  bodies  being  taken  out  of  different  places.   The  City  Hall 
had  fallen.   That  was  a  great  adventure,  but  we  got  out  that 
morning  on  the  last  ferry  boat  that  left,  and  went  to  San  Quentin. 

Teiser:  Had  much  damage  been  done  over  at  San  Quentin? 

Turner:  No,  but  they  had  an  earthquake  there  at  6:00  that  evening,  and 

the  prisoners  were  locked  up.  They  screamed  with  fear.  After  a 
couple  of  weeks,  John  and  I  went  to  Portland,  Oregon,  where  many 
relatives  still  lived.  He  got  a  job  as  the  sports  editor  on  the 
Oregon  Journal. 

Teiser:  He  was  quite  versatile,  wasn't  he? 

Turner:  He  was  a  good  athlete,  almost  tops  in  tennis.   He  got  this  job 

and  we  stayed  there  a  year  and  a  half.   It  rained,  you  know,  and 
as  a  Calif ornian  I  longed  for  the  sunshine.   So  we  went  down  to 
Los  Angeles,  and  he  got  a  job  on  the  newspaper. 

Teiser:  What  newspaper  was  this? 

Turner:   I  think  at  first  it  was  the  Herald,  but  he  wrote  an  article  in 
which  he  called  a  whale  a  leviathan.   That  was  far  too  literary 


Turner:   for  them;  they  couldn't  stand  that, 


10 
LOS  ANGELES  AND  THE  MEXICAN  LIBERALS 

Turner:   The  next  job  was  on  the  Los  Angeles  Record,  but  all  in  a  very 
short  time.   This  was  now  1908--a  great  year  for  us.   He  was 
sent  to  interview  some  Mexican  refugees  from  Porfirio  Diaz,  who 
were  held  in  the  Los  Angeles  County  Jail,  accused  of  violating 
the  neutrality  laws  between  the  United  States  and  Mexico.   I 
believe  we  were  both  members  of  the  Socialist  Party  then--I 
wasn't  a  member  very  long  and  I  didn't  know  what  it  was  all 
about,  but  I  had  tendencies  that  way.  Anyway,  in  Los  Angeles 
we  met  a  group  headed  by  the  attorney  who  was  defending  these 
men  who  were  in  prison.   This  attorney  was  Job  Harriman,  a  very 
well-known  figure.   He  is  now  dead.   By  the  way,  I  forgot  to 
mention  the  names  of  the  imprisoned  Mexicans.   They  were  Ricardo 
Flores  Magon,  Antonio  I.  Villarreal  and  Librado  Rivera.   Later, 
Manuel  Sarabia  was  also  made  a  prisoner.   The  newspaper  sent 
John  there  to  interview  them,  but  he  knew  Job  Harriman  from 
his  e'arlier  experience  in  Los  Angeles,  when  he  was  sixteen. 

Teiser:  Was  Job  Harriman  a  Socialist,  too? 

Turner:   Yes.   But  he  was  quite  a  successful  lawyer,  a  sharp-witted  man. 

Teiser:   What  was  he  like? 

Turner:  He  was  tall  and  slender,  kind  of  loose- jointed.   I  don't  know 
that  I  can  make  a  comparison  to  anybody.   He  had  the  air  of 
belonging  to  the  workers,  but  at  the  same  time  he  was  a  very, 
very  astute  lawyer.  We  met  at  the  house  of  P.  D.  and  Frances 
Noel.   I  have  to  say  P.  D.  because  he  never  used  his  name,  which 
was  Primrose.   Can  you  blame  him?  His  wife  was  very  active  in 
trade  union  work;  they  were  both  active. 


11 

\ 

Turner:       We  met  at  their  house  also  John  Murray,  an  outstanding 
figure  of  the  day  who  was  engaged  in  trade  union  work  and 
editing  trade  union  papers,  but  was  very  volatile  with  a  lot 
of  fire  and  enthusiasm.  And  we  met  at  their  house  a  woman 
who  was  to  be  very  important  in  this  particular  phase  of  the 
Revolution.   Her  name  was  Elizabeth  Trowbridge  and  she  was  from 
Brookline,  Massachusetts;  that's  a  "swell"  residence  district 
of  Boston.   Her  family  had  money.   Her  father  had  died.   He 
had  been  a  great  philanthropist,  but  he  died  before  Elizabeth 
was  born.  Well,  Elizabeth  had  a  lot  of  money.   She  had  to  get 
rid  of  her  mother,  who  had  taken  her  west  because  she  wasn't 
well.   She  had  to  tell  her  a  tall  story  to  get  her  to  go  back 
home  when  she  heard  about  these  Mexican  refugees  and  what 
Diaz  was  doing.  Anyway  the  mother  went  back  home  and  Elizabeth 
stayed  and  threw  herself  into  "the  Mexican  cause"  completely. 
My  next  book  is  going  to  tell  about  this  part,  the  North  Americans1-- 
we  call  them  North  Americans  in  Mexico—participation  in  the  days 
before  the  Revolution  and  the  Revolution.   It's  going  to  be 
written  for  North  Americans.   I  think  I  can  get  an  English 
language  publisher. 

Elizabeth  had  met  Manuel.   We  used  to  interview  them  in 
jail. 

Teiser:  What  was  the  purpose  of  your  interviews? 

Turner:   To  show  our  support,  I  suppose.   This  was  in  1908.   One  time 

John  came  and  told  Elizabeth  atnd  me  that  we  had  a  task  to  perform. 
We  went  to  the  jail  and  Maria,  who  was  the  sweetheart  of  Ricardo, 
was  there,  and  the  three  of  us  went  in  to  interview  the  men, 
Ricardo  Flores  Mag&n,  Antonio  Villarreal,  and  Librado  Rivera. 


12 

Turner:  Ricardo  sat  in  the  middle  toward  the  near  end  of  the  corridor, 
with  Antonio  on  one  side  and  Librado  Rivera  on  the  other. 
Maria  sat  opposite  Ricardo,  I  sat  opposite  Antonio,  and 
Elizabeth  opposite  Librado.   There  was  only  one  guard  there  in 
the  jail,  and  he  walked  from  our  end  up  to  the  far  end  of  the 
corridor.  As  we  were  sitting  at  the  near  end,  it  took  him  a 
couple  of  minutes  to  get  back.  As  soon  as  he  started  his  walk, 
Ricardo  dropped  a  piece  of  paper  and  pushed  it  below  the  iron 
mesh.  Maria  dropped  her  purse,  and  as  she  picked  up  her  purse 
she  picked  up  the  paper.   Elizabeth  and  I  had  spread  our  long 
skirts  on  either  side  of  Maria  to  hide  what  she  was  doing. 
It  was  a  success.  The  guard  didn't  catch  us.  After  we  left, 
we  could  hardly  walk  down  the  street,  Elizabeth  and  I,  we  were 
so  excited--what  a  pair  we  were  I --because  those  were  the  plans 
for  the  1908  Revolution. 

Teiser:  For  the  whole  of  it? 

Turner:  En.ough  of  it  so  that  others  could  take  up  from  where  it  left  off. 

Teiser:  What  did  you  do  with  the  paper? 

Turner:  Maria  sent  it  down  to  the  border,  but  it  was  captured.   They 
were  exposed.   That  was  a  betrayal  of  the  Revolution.   The 
1906  and  1908  Revolutions  were  both  betrayed. 

Teiser:   Do  you  remember  the  specific  incident  of  the  exposure  of  these 

plans? 
Turner:   Yes.   The  other  side  were  watching  everything,  you  see.   They 

found  a  man  in  prison  in  Torre&n  in  Mexico  who  looked  very  much 
like  Antonio  Villarreal.   They  let  him  out  and  they  got  him  to 
play  the  role  of  being  Antonio.   The  Liberals  were  not  able  to 
check  to  see  if  he  was  still  in  prison.   So  he  got  into  the 


13 
Turner:   secret  Liberal  club.   Every  place  they  had  formed  these  clubs 

for  arming  and  organizing.   He  got  into  the  local  one;  someone 

said,  Th  sure,  it's  Antonio."  He  got  their  confidence  and  betrayed 

the  Revolution. 

Teiser:  And  he  betrayed  the  specific  plans  that  Maria  brought? 
Turner:   I  think  that  is  the  way  it  was.   I  tell  you  it  was  tough--it 

makes  me  ache  inside  even  now. 


14 
BARBAROUS  MEXICO 

Turner:       Elizabeth  first  sent  John  Murray  to  Mexico  to  find  out  the 
truth,  but  John  came  back,  not  being  able  to  penetrate  into 
the  hidden  spots.   Then  John  Kenneth  Turner  went  down  with 
a  Mexican  man,  Lstzaro  Gutierrez  de  Lara,  a  highly  educated 
lawyer. 

Teiser:   I  suppose  he  was  interested,  and  that  was  why  he  was  willing 
to  spend  that  much  time  and  effort  and  be  exposed  to  danger? 

Turner:  We  were  all  worked  up.   It's  hard  to  describe. 

Teiser:   I  am  thinking  of  de  Lara,  who  must  have  put  himself  in  a  position 
of  danger. 

Turner:  In  a  position  of  great  danger  I  He  had  escaped  danger  before, 
but  that's  another  long  story.  But  it  was  all  to  try  to  free 
Mexico. 

Teiser:  De  Lara  was  one  of  the  liberal  Mexicans  who  had  come  across 
the  border  into  California? 

Turner:   Yes  he  was.   He  had  been  in  Cananea  at  the  time  of  the  copper 
mines  strike  in  June,  1906.   He  had  been  agitating—teaching 
Marxism  to  the  workers.   He  was  arrested  after  the  strike,  but 
was  released  due  to  the  misinterpretation  of  the  telegram  of 
Porfirio  Dfaz  to  the  governor  of  the  State  of  Sonora.   He  fled 
to  Los  Angeles. 

John  Kenneth  Turner  and  de  Lara  worked  up  a  plan.   Believe 
me,  it's  incredible  that  this  thing  really  did  operate.   In 
late  July  or  early  August  they  rode  the  rods,   they  went  as 
tramps  in  other  words,  to  the  border.   Then  they  elegantly 
bought  tickets  to  Mexico  City  and  rode  the  train  in  the  proper 


15 

Turner:  way.   The  plan  was  to  penetrate  into  the  worst  area--into  the 

Yucatan  plantations  of  henequen,  from  which  they  make  hemp,  and  into  the 
tobacco  fields  of  Valle  Nacional.   There  workers  were  bought 
for  so  much  a  head  and  taken  down  there.  Very  often  their  life 
span  would  be  up  to  six  months.   The  Yaquis  were  taken  away 
from  Sonora  and  forced  to  march  all  the  way  down  into  Yucatan. 

Teiser:   It  was  most  vividly  described  in  Barbarous  Mexico. 

Turner:   They  penetrated  first  into  Yucatan.   The  way  it  is  told  in 

Barbarous  Mexico  is  literally  the  way  it  was.   Later  they  had 
the  incredible  daring  to  go  to  Valle  Nacional.   The  other  men 
might  have  been  suspicious,  but  they  got  away  with  it  somehow. 
I  suppose  if  you  dare  you  sometimes  do  accomplish  something. 
Anyway,  they  did. 

While  John  and  Lazaro  were  in  Mexico,  Elizabeth,  John 
Murray  and  I  went  to  Tucson.   There  we  took  a  house.   Elizabeth 
paid  for  everything.   The  men  were  being  tried  there. 

Teiser:   The  other  Mexican  liberals  were  being  tried  in  Arizona? 

Turner:   Yes,  the  ones  who  were  in  prison.   Ricardo  Flores  Mag6n, 
Antonio  Villarreal,  Librado  Rivera,  and  Manuel  Sarabia. 

We  started  a  magazine  called  The  Border.   It  was  a  monthly 
magazine.  We  had  very  good  articles  in  it,  showing  up  Dfaz. 
Elizabeth  bailed  Manuel  out  of  jail  because  he  had  incipient 
tuberculosis—no,  it  was  more  than  incipient  I  guess.   He  wouldn't 
have  lived  in  jail.   He  couldn't  have,  you  see.   So  in  October 
he  came  to  live  with  us  in  this  house;  he,  John  Murray,  and 
then  John  came  back  from  Mexico.   John  was  awfully  depressed, 
awfully  upset  by  what  he  had  seen. 


16 

Teiser:  Had  this  been  just  the  tour  of  the  henequen  plantations? 

Turner:  And  the  tobacco.  What  he  learned  in  Mexico  City,  too. 

Teiser:  Had  he  stayed  long  in  Mexico  City  at  that  time? 

Turner:  No,  not  that  time.   He  wrote  Barbarous  Mexico,  the  first  part-- 
the  articles  on  slavery-then  he  took  off  for  New  York  where  he 
sold  them  to  the  American  Magazine.   They  wanted  him  to  go 
to  Mexico  City  and  get  the  political  end  of  it. 

In  December  Elizabeth  and  Manuel  were  married.   John 
Murray  took  off,  went  to  Chicago  and  founded  the  Political 
Refugee  Defense  League.   From  then  he  worked  very  hard  in  all 
kinds  of  ways  for  Mexican  refugees—not  only  Mexicans;  there  were 
some  refugees  from  other  countries  too,  but  mostly  from  Mexico. 
Elizabeth  sold  the  magazine  and  she  and  Manuel  went  to  live  in 
England.   He  skipped  his  bail.   She  insisted  that  he  had  to, 
because  he  was  spitting  blood. 

Teiser:   How  long  did  you  stay  in  the  house  in  Tucson? 

Turner:  We  went  down  in  September,  and  in  January  I  left  for  New  York, 
and  Elizabeth  a  little  later. 

Teiser:   Did  The  Border  continue  then? 

Turner:  Well,  it  did  but  it  changed  its  character. 

Teiser:   How  many  issues  did  you  put  out? 

Turner:   I  think  there  were  four. 

Then  I  went  to  New  York,  and  John  had  sold  his  articles 
to  the  American  Magazine.   They  kept  very  very  secret  anything 
on  what  the  articles  were  about.   There  were  some  famous  people 
on  the  American  in  those  days:   Ray  Stannard  Baker  and  Ida  M. 
Tarbell.   It  was  a  good  magazine. 


17 

Turner:       They  sent  us  to  Mexico  in  January,  1909,  to  get  more  on 
the  political  side.   John  took  a  job  as  sports  editor  of  the 
Mexican  Herald,  an  English  daily,  and  got  away  with  it.   We  used 
to  go  to  the  Churubusco  Country  Club.   They  were  having  a  tennis 
tournament  between  the  United  States  and  Mexico,  with  the  greatest 
stars  of  the  United  States.   The  Mexicans  were  good  too.   So 
John  was  the  umpire.   He  used  to  go  up  there  and  umpire  the  matches-- 
this  man  who  was  trying  to  kick  Dfaz  off  his  throne!   [Laughter] 

Teiser:   It  must  have  been  a  vigorous  time  for  him,  carrying  on  all  his 
journalistic  duties  and  all  the  other  things  too. 

Turner:  Well,  we  were  undercover  and  you  couldn't  do  much  at  a  time. 

Teiser:  Did  you  also  do  some  investigation? 

Turner:  Not  on  that  trip,  no.   But  I  was  aware  all  the  time. 

We  went  down  in  January  and  I  returned  in  April.   I  became 
very  sick;  I  was  pregnant  and  I  had  "turista."  I  didn't 
know  it,  but  the  water  was  awful  and  I  became  very,  very  sick. 
I  was  down  to  skin  and  bones.   So  John  sent  me  home  to  my  people 
in  San  Quentin  and  he  went  on  with  his  material  to  New  York. 

I  went  back  on  the  same  train  that  the  tennis  stars  took, 
and  as  soon  as  I  came  to  the  border--!  don't  think  it  was 
psychological  exactly--but  as  soon  as  I  came  to  the  border,  I 
began  to  feel  all  right.   Then  I  went  home. 

Teiser:   You  had  been  staying  in  Mexico  City? 

Turner:  Yes.   We  took  a  trip  down  to  Cuernavaca  where  I  live  now,  because 
the  climate  was  good.   I  did  feel  much  better  down  there. 

Teiser:   Is  it  lower  in  altitude? 

Turner:  Lower  and  a  perfect  climate.   If  there  is  such  a  thing,  Cuernavaca 
has  it.  We  were  there  for  a  little  while  and  then  I  went  home. 


18 

Teiser:   How  much  longer  did  Mr.  Turner  stay  then? 

Turner:   I  should  say  a  couple  of  months --maybe  June.   Then  he  went  to 

New  York  to  see  the  American  Magazine  and  wrote  up  more  articles 
for  them  on  the  political  end.   The  American  accepted  them, 
and  in  the  fall  of  that  year,  1909,  they  started  publishing 
Barbarous  Mexico.   It  was  a  tremendous  shock  to  the  American 
people.   There  were  all  kinds  of  reactions.   He  was  attacked  and 
he  was  praised.   Everything! 

Teiser:  Was  all  of  Barbarous  Mexico  printed  in  the  American  Magazine? 

Turner:  No;  there  is  a  point.  After  the  first  articles  were  printed-- 

in  four  issues,  as  I  remember — someone--we  don't  know  whether  it 
was  Standard  Oil--bought  out  the  magazine  and  it  became  the  most 
wishy-washy  publication.  It  was  just  nothing,  right  away. 

Teiser:  How  many  of  the  articles  appeared?  Did  all  the  articles  on  the 
plantations  and  the  Valle  Nacional  appear? 

Turner:  Yes,  this  much  appeared. 

Teiser:  Not  the  political  part? 

Turner:  No,  not  the  political  part.   That's  what  upset  us.   That  never 
appeared  in  the  magazine. 

Teiser:  What  did  Mr.  Turner  do  then? 

Turner:  He  went  back  to  Los  Angeles  where  we  were  living  then.   In  these 
years  from  early  1908  into  part  of  1911,  we  lived  in  Los  Angeles. 
We  settled  down  in  the  house  of  the  Noels  and  he  finished  his 
book. 

Teiser:   How  did  you  live  in  those  days? 

Turner:   I  don't  know.   It  was  a  mystery  to  me.   I  was  in  a  dream  world  I 
think.   Elizabeth  Trowbridge  had  put  up  for  the  trip,  but  she  had 


19 

Turner:   gone.   Oh,  he  had  advance  money  from  the  American  Magazine, 

of  course.   He  was  paid  for  that,  and  we  managed  without  spending 
very  much. 

Teiser:   You  by  then  had  a  daughter? 

Turner:   In  October,  1909,  my  daughter  was  born.   We  had  moved  to  the 

beach  and  she  was  born  in  Santa  Monica.   Then  after  six  months 
we  returned  to  Los  Angeles  and  he  continued  to  write  his  book. 
In  the  meantime  he  gave  lectures  or  spoke  at  protest  meetings 
on  behalf  of  the  men  in  jail.   He  lectured  here  and  there. 

And  you  know,  with  all  the  publicity  John  had  from  the 
magazine  articles — he  had  a  trunk  full  of  clippings—he 
couldn't  get  a  standard  publisher  for  the  book.   He  did  in 
England,  but  not  in  America  because  the  word  had  gone  out. 
When  the  book  was  finally  published  by  Charles  H.  Kerr  in 
Chicago,  a  socialist  publisher,  the  editions  would  be  bought 
up  as  soon  as  they  appeared.   Kerr  would  put  out  another  edition. 
It  went  fine. 

Teiser:   Did  the  English  and  American  editions  come  out  at  the  same  time? 

Turner:   Practically. 

Teiser:  Was  there  immediate  response  to  the  book? 

Turner:  Not  on  a  big  scale  the  way  there  was  to  the  articles.   The 

henequen  owners  or  somebody  would  buy  up  most  of  the  edition  and 
it  didn't  get  around  very  much. 

Teiser:   Did  the  British  press  review  it  well? 

Turner:   Yes,  they  were  very  favorable,  very  good. 


20 
PRE -REVOLUTION  EVENTS 

Turner       Well,  we  went  through  1909.   In  1909,  the  book  was  published, 
and  he  was  giving  talks  and  carrying  on  propaganda  against 
Porfirio  Diaz.   I  don't  know  who  started  it,  but  it  was  arranged 
to  hold  a  Congressional  hearing.   I  think  it  might  have  been 
through  Representative  William  B.  Wilson  of  Pennsylvania.   He 
was  very  much  aroused.  Anyway,  there  was  to  be  a  hearing  before 
the  House  Rules  Committee.   It  was  held  and  "Champ"  Clark,  who 
was  very  popular  in  Congress  at  that  time,  was  the  chairman, 
f       and  a  good  chairman  he  turned  out  to  be.   But  there  were 

congressmen  on  the  committee,  I  think  two  of  them,  who  were 
hostile.   The  others  were  fair-minded.   Those  who  testified  were 
Representative  Wilson;  John  Kenneth  Turner;  Lazaro  Gutierrez 
de  Lara,  who  went  with  John  to  Mexico;  John  Murray,  and  Mother 
Jones . 

Teiser:  Who  was  Mother  Jones? 

Turner:   Oh  well,  I'll  have  to  give  you  a  bit  on  her.   Her  real  name  was 
Mary  Jones.   She  was  very  active  in  the  labor  movement.  She  was 
militant  and  went  into  the  mining  camps,  especially--oh,  the 
misery  of  those  places  in  that  period  I  We  don't  realize  it  now 
that  labor  gets  good  wages;  then  they  were  miserable.   She  fought, 
and  it  was  due  to  such  people  that  labor  did  get  better  conditions. 

When  Manuel  Sarabia  was  in  Douglas,  Arizona,  carrying  on 
his  propaganda  work,  he  was  kidnapped  and  taken  across  the  border 
to  be  liquidated.   People  got  to  know  it  and  they  raised  a 
tremendous  row;  it  got  to  Washington  and  the  newspapers  took  it 
up.  Mother  Jones  happened  to  be  there  fighting  for  the  miners 


21 

Turner:  and  she  put  on  a  meeting.   It  was  fiery 1   It  was  in  front  of  the 
Mexican  Consul's  office.   He  was  one  of  those  who  was  involved 
in  Manuel's  capture.   The  miners  hung  a  rope,  a  noose,  in  front 
of  the  consul's  office,  with  a  sign:   "You  are  going  to  get  this 
unless  Manuel  Sarabia  is  returned  alive."  After  about  ten  days 
he  came  back.   The  United  States   authorities  sent  word  that  he 
was  to  be  freed. 

Teiser:  It's  almost  as  curious  that  the  United  States  would  have  the 
power  to  have  a  Mexican  national  freed  as  that  it  would  have 
the  power  to  jail  him  here,  isn't  it? 

Turner:  Yes,  but  it  was  a  political  tie-up.   That  is  one  of  the  stories  I 
am  using  in  the  book  that  I  am  writing  now,  because  it  is  very 
close  to  me.   I  knew  Manuel  very  well.   When  he  and  Elizabeth 
were  married,  I  stood  up  for  them. 

Teiser:  What  was  he  like? 

Turner:  He  was  an  intellectual,  well  educated.   He  was  fair,  fairer 

than  I  am,  except  for  black  hair  and  dark  eyes.   He  was  a  fine 
person;  I  liked  him  very  much.   He  was  not  what  we  could  call 
a  big  he-man  type,  but  he  was  gentle  and  courageous. 

The  Congressional  hearing  was  held  and  there  was  a  great 
deal  of  evidence  to  show  that  the  Mexican  enemies  of  Diaz  were 
persecuted  in  the  United  States.   John  Murray  had  all  kinds  of 
evidence  of  what  was  going  on  in  the  southwestern  states  and  along 
the  border,  about  the  opening  and  seizure  of  mail  and  all  kinds 
of  things . 

The  hearings  were  reported  in  the  press,  which  was  a  good 


22 

Turner:   thing,  but  the  matter  was  tabled.   This  was  June,  1910.   In 
November,  1910,  the  Revolution  started. 

In  the  meantime,  the  men,  Ricardo  Flores  Mag6n,  Antonio 
Villarreal,  and  Librado  Rivera,  had  served  their  time  for 
violating  the  neutrality  laws  and  were  freed.   They  had  been 
in  Florence  Penitentiary  in  Arizona.   In  July,  1910, 
they  came  to  Los  Angeles.   There  were  crowds  at  the  station; 
you  know  there  were  many  Mexicans  living  there.   The  crowds  threw 
flowers.   The  men  walked  on  a  carpet  of  flowers.   Then  a  big 
mass  meeting  of  welcome  was  held.   They  were  carried  on  the  shoulders 
of  the  crowd  to  the  platform.   John  was  one  of  the  speakers  that 
night. 

Teiser:  Was  he  a  persuasive  speaker? 

Turner:  Just  as  in  his  writing,  matter-of-fact.  A  good  deal  of  energy 
and  sincerity,  but  not  a  picturesque  type  at  all. 

They  renewed  publication  of  Regeneraci6n,  which  had  been 
done  away  with  by  government  agents  in  St.  Louis.   Regeneraci6n, 
I  haven't  explained,  was  the  paper  that  had  been  started  in 
Mexico,  had  been  smashed  there  and  was  attacked  in  San  Antonio. 
The  editors,  leaders  of  the  Junta,  had  gone  to  St.  Louis,  Missouri, 
and  were  finally  put  out  of  business  there.   As  soon  as  they 
returned  to  Los  Angeles  after  serving  their  prison  sentence, 
they  started  Regeneraci6n  again,  and  John  and  I  used  to  go  to 
the  office  all  the  time. 

Teiser:  Where  was  the  office? 

Turner:   It  was  on  Fourth  Street  and  Towne,  the  other  side  of  Los  Angeles 
Street.   They  had  the  whole  building  and  some  of  them  slept 
and  ate  there.  We  ate  with  them  sometimes  and  got  to  know  them. 
Enrique,  the  brother  of  Ricardo,  had  joined  the  staff,  and  also 


23 

Turner:   Praxedis  Guerrero  was  one  of  the  editors.   He  was  a  gifted  writer 
and  a  marvelous  person.   One  afternoon  Ricardo  and  Enrique 
Flores  Mag6n,  Librado  Rivera,  and  Praxedis  Guerrero  invited 
John  and  me  to  go  into  an  inner,  very  private  office,  as  they 
had  something  to  tell  us.  What  do  you  think  it  was?  The 
date  of  the  Revolution! 

They  had  such  confidence  in  us  that  they  told  us  November 
20  would  be  the  date  the  Revolution  would  start.   You  know, 
it's  one  of  my  proud  memories  that  they  had  such  confidence. 
It  did  start  on  November  20,  although  it  didn't  get  on  its  way 
so  quickly.   They  had  the  same  date  with  Madero.   They  had 
made  an  agreement.   Praxedis  left  to  go  down  and  start  things 
in  Chihuahua,  and  he  was  killed  in  the  last  days  of  December. 

They  had  an  editor  for  the  English  page  of  the  paper. 
The  paper  was  a  weekly  of  four  pages  of  the  standard  newspaper 
size.   The  final  page  was  in  English.   They  had  a  man  who  was 
the  English  editor  but  he  left  because  he  didn't  get  on  with 
them.  When  he  left,  they  asked  me  to  edit  the  English  page. 
Just  a  young,  inexperienced  person!   But  I  had  always  wanted  to 
write,  and  I  was  writing,  and  I  was  full  of  fire.   It  made  me 
so  angry  when  it  was  later  said  that  John  wrote  everything!   He 
didn't.   I  had  guidance  from  everybody,  but  I  wrote  most  of  the 
articles  myself.   That  gives  me  prestige  in  Mexico  today,  that  I  was 
on  that  paper.  My  name  was  on  the  masthead. 
Teiser:  How  long  did  you  write  for  it? 
Turner:  About  six  months. 


24 


Teiser:   You  were  a  good  sport. 

Turner:  Well,  I  had  belief  in  everything  we  were  standing  for. 

While  I  was  doing  this,  John  was  buying  up  all  the  guns 
he  could  find.   They  were  shipped  to  the  border  labeled  as  tools 
or  implements  for  the  farmers,  but  they  were  guns  for  the  part 
of  the  Revolution  that  was  in  Lower  California.   That  part  was 
nearest  to  us. 

After  the  Battle  of  Juarez,  Porfirio  Diaz  was  forced  to  flee, 
and  it  looked  as  though  the  Revolution  had  been  won.  Well, 
Madero  side-stepped  the  issues.   He  wasn't  too  bad,  but  he  wasn't 
good  either.   He  didn't  get  along  with  the  Liberal  Party  men. 
So  John  decided — he  made  more  decisions  than  I  did — that  it  was 
time  to  write  articles  and  even  fiction.   He  was  fairly  good 
at  fiction,  but  on  articles  he  was  splendid. 


25 

Interview  No.  3  -  August  10,  1966 
JACK  AND  CHARMIAN  LONDON 

Teiser:   You  knew  Jack  and  Charmian  London? 

Turner:   I  didn't  know  Jack  London  personally.   I  have  seen  him.   When 
I  was  in  college  he  came  and  gave  a  talk.   Every  Friday,  or 
every  other  Friday,  we  had  a  speaker  at  Harmon  Gym.   Jack  London 
came  there  one  time.  All  the  professors  were  very  correct  in 
several  rows  on  the  platform,  and  Jack  London  came  in  a  soft 
shirt  and  no  tie,  looking  very  handsome.   He  called  himself  a 
revolutionary--no,  I  think  it  was  another  time  that  he  called 
himself  a  revolutionary.   But  his  talk  was  to  show  that  he  was 
a  non-conformist  because  he  had  done  so  many  things,  like  going 
to  sea  and  bumming  on  the  roads.   The  professors  sat  there  trying 
to  look  receptive,  but  I  know  they  were  shocked.   He  was  noL 
their  type.   However,  he  was  pretty  famous  by  that  time. 

Teiser:   Did  he  interest  you  in  Socialism  at  all? 

Turner:  No,  John  was  a  Socialist  from  the  time  he  was  sixteen  years  old 
when  he  made  a  trip  to  Los  Angeles.  I  think  that's  it;  I  don't 
know. 

Teiser:   So  you  had  already  been  interested  in  Socialism  by  then? 

Turner:   Oddly  enough,  I  didn't  know  it  by  name,  but  I  used  to  go  to  the 
University  library  and  I  picked  up  books  by  Maxim  Gorki  and 
Edward  Bellamy's  Looking  Backward.   These  set  my  thoughts  in 
that  direction,  but  this  was  completely  on  my  own.   It  was  just 
that  kind  of  thing,  but  I  don't  know  how  I  got  started  on  that. 
I  had  no  particular  influence. 


26 

Teiser:  You  knew  Charmian  after  she  had  married  Jack  London? 

Turner:  Yes.  In  fact  it  was  after  she  was  a  widow,   she  asked  me  to  go 
up  to  her  place  in  Glen  Ellen,  but  I  never  went. 

Teiser:  What  kind  of  person  was  she? 

Turner:   She  must  have  had  some  good  qualities.   She  was  brave  enough 
to  go  with  Jack  on  these  long  trips  in  his  yacht.   She  was  a 
good  companion  for  him  because  he  demanded  a  lot  of  a  woman. 
He  didn't  want  a  feminine  type,  but  she  was  not  masculine. 
George  Sterling  used  to  say,  "She'd  squeeze  a  nickel  until  it 
screamed!"  She  wasn't  too  happy  about  Jack's  friends.   In  fact, 
she  was  pretty  possessive. 

John  Kenneth  Turner  knew  Jack,  aitd  he  liked  him  very  much 
until  toward  the  end  of  Jack's  life  when  the  U.  S.  Marines  fired 
on  Vera  Cruz  and  Jack  went  down  there  to  get  a  story  for 
Collier 's.   He  said  that  the  Americans  should  march  to  Mexico 
City  and  take  over  the  whole  country.   Of  course,  that  wasn't: 
the  way  we  thought  at  all,  and  that  infuriated  John.   He  had 
no  more  use  for  Jack  London. 

Teiser:  He  was  a  man  of  principles  and  ideals  then? 

Turner:   Oh  yes,  John  was. 

I  was  going  to  talk  about  Charmian,  and  about  how  I  knew 
her  when  she  was  married  to  Jack.  When  I  was  editing  the  English 
page  of  that  paper  I  told  you  about,  Regeneraci6n--this  was  about 
March,  1911--we,  Regeneraci8n  and  the  Junta,  wanted  to  put  on 
a  mass  meeting  to  explain  the  Revolution  to  the  confused  people. 
They  asked  Jack  London  to  speak.   Then  Charmian  came  to  the 


27 

Turner:   office  to  explain  why  Jack  couldn't  do  it.   She  talked  to  me 

because  it  was  a  matter  of  language.   I  was  sitting  at  my  desk 

in  the  outer  office,  and  Charmian  talked  to  me  about  half  an  hour. 

She  explained  that  Jack  was  sick,  but  that  he  would  write  a 

letter.   He  did  write  a  letter,  and  that  was  the  letter  where 

he  signed  himself  "a  chicken  thief  and  a  revolutionist;"  he  made  a 

joke,  you  know.   It  was  a  serious,  good  letter,  though. 

Well,  Charmian  talked  to  me--I  was  a  very  young  unsophisticated 
type--I  was  even  young  for  my  age.   I  guess  I  was  about  23. 
Charmian  went  back  home--and  I  think  she  did  this  very  often- 
whatever  material  she  gathered  she  turned  over  to  Jack  and  he 
wrote  stories.   I  am  in  his  story  "The  Mexican."  It  turned  out 
to  be  mostly  about  a  prize  fight,  but  it  was  all  supposed  to  be 
in  connection  with  raising  money  for  the  Mexican  revolution. 

Teiser:   This  was  one  of  his  short  stories? 

Turner:  Yes.   I  don't  think  it  is  one  of  his  best,  but  a  lot  of  people 
have  admired  it.  Maybe  it  is  a  good  one,  I  don't  know. 

Teiser:   Do  you  have  a  name  in  the  story? 

Turner:  No,  I  don't  think  so,  but  I  am  the  woman.   It  doesn't  describe  me 
particularly. 

That  is  all  I  know  about  Jack  personally,  but  he  was  a  very 
close  friend  of  George  Sterling.  He  and  George  really  cared  for 
each  other;  they  were  more  or  less  the  same  type. 

Teiser:  Wasn't  Sterling  more  sensitive? 

Turner:   Yes,  I  guess  he  was,  but  they  liked  to  be  individuals  and  not  to 
conform  to  the  pattern.   They  were  not  of  the  Establishment, 


28 

Turner:  we  would  say  nowadays,  wouldn't  we? 

I  met  Joan  London.   She  was  secretary,  for  a  while,  of  the 
state  AFL-CIO.   I  don't  know  if  she  still  is.   Their  office  was 
on  Market.   I  went  with  my  very  dear  friend,  Ina  Connolly,  but 
that  is  another  story-all  about  Ireland.   Joan  was  so  glad  to 
see  us;  she  welcomed  us  and  we  felt  that  we  had  a  real  friend  there, 
but  I  have  never  gone  back.   If  I  were  the  type  who  pushed  things, 
I  would  have;  but  I  would  not,  so  that  was  that.   But  we  had 
a  very  fine  talk  with  Joan. 

Teiser:  When  was  that? 

Turner:   It  was  around  1958,  I  think. 


29 

CARMEL  AND  MEXICO  AGAIN 
Turner:  We  went  to  Carmel  in  1910,  before  the  Revolution,  on  an 

exploratory  trip.  We  fell  in  love  with  it  and  then  in  1911  we 

went  there  to  live. 
Teiser:  How  did  you  know  about  it? 
Turner:   It  was  getting  into  the  news  that  it  was  a  literary  colony. 

You  have  read  my  stuff  on  it,  you  know  about  it. 
Teiser:   Yes,  I  read  your  essay  on  it  that  you  sent  to  the  Bancroft 

Library. 
Turner:  You  saw  the  George  Sterling  material?   [Also  sent  to  the  Bancroft 

Library. ] 
Teiser:  I  did. 
Turner:   So  it  shows  you  more  or  less  what  our  life  was  there.   It  tells  you 

some  details  about  our  life  there  —  for  instance,  Sinclair  Lewis 

coming  down.  We  went  to  New  York  in  1917. 

While  we  were  in  Carmel,  John  made  another  trip  to 

Mexico,  when  he  was  arrested,  during  what  they  call  the  "decena 

trSgica." 

Teiser:   Oh  yes,  would  you  tell  about  that? 
Turner:  Well,  John  decided  that  he  wanted  to  see  how  the  Revolution  was 

going,  if  the  aims  were  being  carried  out. 
Teiser:  This  was  during  the  presidency  of  Madero? 
Turner:  Yes,  this  was  the  winter  1912-13,  but  he  got  down  there  late 

in  1912.  While  he  was  there  Elizabeth  and  Manuel  were  living 

in  Mexico  City  and  he  stayed  there  with  them.   In  January,  1913, 

the  shooting  started—the  Tragic  Ten  Days,  during  which  the 


30 

Turner:  nephew  of  Porfirio  Diaz  took  the  lead.   The  American  ambassador, 
Henry  Lane  Wilson,  was  on  the  side  of  the  Revolution  against 
Madero.   John,  being  a  newspaperman  with  a  nose  for  news  which 
was  very  marked  in  him,  went  out  on  the  street  with  a  camera 
and  field  glasses.   He  had  a  carte  blanche  from  Madero.   He  had 
gone  to  see  him,  and  Madero  had  praised  him,  said  that  he  helped 
to  win  the  Revolution  with  his  book  Barbarous  Mexico.   He  had 
that  carte  blanche  on  him.   He  was  captured  in  the  streets  with 
all  this.   He  managed  to  get  rid  of  the  carte  blanche.   If  he 
hadn't,  it  would  have  been  too  bad.   It  was  too  bad  anyway,  because 
they  threw  him  into  a  "black  hole  of  Calcutta."  It  was  a 
room  where  there  were  about  forty  men  and  almost  no  air. 
Teiser:  Was  this  in  Mexico  City? 
Turner:  Yes,  in  the  barracks.   He  was  held  there.   George  Sterling  and 

a  couple  of  other  persons,  whom  I  can't  remember  now,  and  myself 
went  to  see  Harry  Leon  Wilson.   He  lived  down  the  coast  about  five 
miles  below  Carmel.   The  San  Francisco  Examiner  was  there,  and  in 
that  first  edition  it  had  two  or  three  lines  about  how  John 
Kenneth  Turner  was  condemned  to  death.   So  George  and  I — George 
was  one  of  John's  best  friends--rushed  back  to  Carmel  and  we 
burned  up  the  wires.  Also  John's  mother,  his  sister  and  his 
brother—we  all  got  very  active.   In  Washington,  Senator  Ashurst, 
of  Arizona,  was  very  valuable  on  this.  And  Richard  Harding  Davis 
was  furious  that  an  American  would  be  treated  that  way.   He 
had  more  or  less  race  prejudice,  but  nevertheless  he  did  a  good 
act.   He  aroused  a  lot  of  protest  in  the  East.   This  was  all 


31 

Turner:   immediate.   I  went  to  Los  Angeles  and  was  interviewed  by  the 
Los  Angeles  Times ,  and  George  went  to  San  Francisco.   I  got  a 
box  announcement  in  the  Associated  Press  that  John  was  down  there 
as  a  writer  and  not  as  a  politician.   I  don't  know  whether  the 
newspapers  believed  me  or  not.  Well,  the  outcome  was  that  he 
was  freed  after  four  days. 

Teiser:  Had  he  actually  been  tried? 

Turner:   No,  they  wouldn't  think  of  such  a  thing. 

Teiser:   Just  condemned? 

Turner:   Yes,  he  would  have  been  shot.   He  called  on  Ambassador  Wilson 
to  do  something  for  him;  he  was  an  American  citizen.   The 
Ambassador  found  out  that  he  was  the  author  of  Barbarous  Mexico 
and  completely  ignored  him. 

Teiser:  He  was  able  to  communicate  with  Wilson? 

Turner:   Yes,  John  sent  for  him  and  he  came. 

Teiser:   He  did  come? 

Turner:   Yes,  he  came,  but  he  didn't  know  who  John  was  then. 

Teiser:   I  wonder  how  it  got  on  the  wire  services  from  Mexico. 

Turner:  We  never  found  out.   But  you  know  it  was  only  in  the  first 
edition.   It  was  killed  after  that. 

Teiser:  Was  Hearst  against  the  Revolution? 

Turner:   Oh,  very  much  so.   He  had  been  given  hundreds  and  thousands  of 
acres  of  land  at  ten  cents  an  acre  by  Diaz.   No  wonder  he 
loved  him.' 


William  Randolph  Hearst,  publisher  of  the  San  Francisco 
Examiner 


32 

Teiser:  Where  was  the  acreage? 
Turner:   It  was  in  Lower  California.   There  might  have  been  some  of  it  in 

Sonora.   I  don't  know  about  that;  but  I  know  there  was  some  in 

Lower  California. 

Teiser:  Did  Mr.  Turner  come  right  back  to  Carmel? 
Turner:  No,  he  went  to  New  York  with  his  story.   It  appeared  here  and 

there,  but  there  was  an  inclination  to  crush  it.   He  did  get 

it  out,  and  then  he  came  to  Carmel. 
Teiser:  What  sort  of  a  looking  man  was  he? 
Turner:  John  was  good  looking.   He  had  an  aquiline  nose  and  an  olive 

complexion,  dark  eyes  and  black  hair.   George  Sterling  used  to 

say  that  an  Indian  got  into  the  family  somewhere. 
Teiser:   He  was  tall,  was  he  not? 
Turner:   Yes,  he  was  about  5  feet  11,  and  slender. 


33 
CARMEL  FRIENDS  AND  ACQUAINTANCES 

Teiser:   I'd  like  to  ask  about  some  of  the  people  you  knew  in  Carmel,  to  add 
to  the  material  you  sent  the  Bancroft  Library.   Did  you  know 
Lincoln  Steffens? 

Turner:   I  did  not  know  him  personally.   He  was  a  friend  of  John's,  though. 

Teiser:  What  sort  of  person  was  Harry  Leon  Wilson? 

Turner:   I  think  he  had  genuine  talent.   I  liked  him  very  much.   He  was 
a  man  who  knew  literature,  and  he  certainly  knew  how  to  write. 
He  had  at  one  time  been  editor  of--this  goes  way  back  for  me-- 
was  it  Punch  or  Puck?  There  was  the  old  Life,  and  then  I  think 
there  was  Puck.   He  was  from  Indiana  and  he  knew  Booth 
Tarkington.   They  did  some  writing  together.   He  had  a  good  way 
of  writing  humor.   I  learned  a  lot  from  him.  We  used  to  talk 
literature.   He  was  very  fond  of  H.  G.  Wells,  so  I  read  all  of 
Wells.   In  those  days  I  read  Wells  and  Conrad  and  Arnold  Bennett. 
Then  I  got  to  the  Russians,  Dostoevski,  etc. 

Teiser:   You  mentioned  Jimmy  Hopper. 

Turner:   Yes,  he  was  quite  a  person.   He  was  not  much  over  5  feet  tall.  A 
lot  of  good  people  are  not.   You  know  the  poet  Keats  was  only  5 
feet  tall.   Jimmy  was  maybe  5-2  or  3,  but  broad  and  strong 
and  powerful.   The  last  time  I  was  on  the  campus  I  looked  over  in 
that  direction,  but  I  did  not  see  the  football  statue.   I  wonder 
if  it's  still  there.   His  name  is  on  that  as  a  football  player. 
He  played--!  can't  think  of  the  name--I  know  he  wasn't  one  of  the 
powerful  ones.   He  was  light  on  his  feet  and  ran  well,  and  his 
name  is  on  that  statue.   He  got  married,  and  he  and  his  wife  went 
to  the  Philippines,  where  the  United  States  was  setting  up 


34 

Turner:   schools.   They  both  taught  there  for  a  while.  Then  he  wrote  stories 
and  McClure's  Magazine  published  them.   I  doubt  if  they  were  ever 
in  book  form,  but  he  did  write  a  couple  of  books.   His  mother 
was  French  and  his  father  of  Irish  descent.   It  seemed 
to  be  a  good  combination  for  wit  because  he  was  one  of  the 
wittiest  persons  I  ever  knew  and  always  good  company.   The  last 
time  I  saw  Jimmy,  he  was  dying.   His  wife  had  died  years  before, 
and  he  had  remarried,  a  young  woman  who  was  a  musician.   I  was 
in  Carmel  so  I  went  to  see  Jimmy;  he  recognized  me  but  he  couldn't 
talk.   It  was  so  sad  to  see  Jimmy  like  that.  He  was  also  a  very 
close  friend  of  George  Sterling.  As  a  person  he  was  wonderful. 
He  had  three  children.   Jimmy  Hopper,  the  son,  is  a  doctor  in 
Sausalito,  and  the  two  girls  are  married,  but  I  have  lost  track  of 
them. 

Teiser:  Fred  Bechdolt? 

Turner:   Oh,  I  can't  think  of  Carmel  without  Beck.  We  always  called 
him  Beck.   His  wife  had  been  married  before  and  she  had  two 
fine  children.   They  lived  in  the  house  next  to  George.   We 
were  very  close  friends  of  the  Bechdolts.   John  used  to  like  to 
play  cards  with  them,  but  I  never  went  for  cards.   I  would  sit 
at  the  side  and  read  a  book.   We  were  on  the  best  of  terms  with  them. 
He  was  lean  and  lanky.   He  wrote  about  the  West,  not  this 
phony  stuff  that  you  see  in  the  movies,  but  the  real  West. 

Teiser:  What  background  did  he  have  for  that? 

Turner:  He  had  been  a  newspaper  man;  that's  all  I  know.  What  state  he 

came  from  I  don't  know,  but  he  had  lived  in  California  quite  a  while. 


35 

Turner:  His  wife  had  been  a  beauty  and  was  very  good  looking  up  to  her 

old  age,  but  she  was  not  spoiled.   They  were  such  "personalities" 
that  it  is  hard  to  put  on  paper.   These  people  were  themselves, 
so  completely  different,  but  they  all  got  along  fine  together. 
Beck  looked  like  a  Westerner--long  and  lean.   He  rode  horseback 
beautifully.   I  wrote  about  the  parties  he  put  on  every  year. 
I  remember  one  party  which  Harry  Leon  Wilson  attended.   That 
was  before  he  married  Helen. 

Teiser:  You  mentioned  Grant  Wallace.   I  used  to  know  his  son,  Kevin,  who 
is  a  writer. 

Turner:   Did  you  ever  know  Moira,  the  artist? 

Teiser:  That  is  the  daughter,  isn't  it? 

Turner:   Yes,  she  is  the  same  age  as  my  daughter,  Juanita.   Peggy  Wallace, 
Margaret  her  name  was,  and  I  had  these  go-carts,  and  we  would  go 
walking  with  our  babies  in  the  go-carts;  Moira  in  one  and  Juanita 
in  the  other.   Grant  Wallace  was  a  striking,  handsome  man,  big  and 
broad-shouldered.   He  never  made  it  as  a  writer,  although  once 
he  won  fame.   He  was  said  to  have  pioneered  those  world  reporters 
that  came  along  strong  in  the  two  world  wars,  but  this  was 
before.   He  wrote  syndicated  articles  on  the  Russo-Japanese  War. 
He  was  well-known  in  that  field,  but  he  was  trying  to  write  fiction. 
I  don't  think  he  ever  made  it.   I  remember  the  agony  of  going 
to  the  post  office  and  getting  nothing  but  rejection  slips. 
They  needed  the  money. 

You  know,  Kevin  and  Moira  are  Irish  names,  and  I  think  the  wife 
was  Irish  or  of  Irish  descent. 


36 

Teiser:  Herbert  Heron? 

Turner:  He  is  still  alive!   He  and  I  are  the  old-timers.   He  is  still 

down  there,  and  he  is  identified  with  the  theater.   He   founded 
the  Forest  Theater,  and  he  promoted  it  all  these  years.   Grace 
Wickham  Odhner,  when  she  was  down  there  recently,  saw  Bert  and  he 
gave  her  a  whole  stack  of  programs  of  the  Forest  Theater.   If 
you  ever  want  to  know  more  about  that,  I  can  give  you  her  address 
and  his.   He  is  still  in  Carmel.   I  saw  him  about  a  year  ago. 
He  looks  fine.   He  is  married  for  the  third  time.   I  knew  his  first 
wife.   She  divorced  him  and  married  a  musician.   Then  Bert 
married  somebody  else  I  didn't  know.   Now  he  is  married  to  a 
much  younger  person;  I  don't  think  she's  forty,  and  Bert,  I  know 
is  almost  as  old  as  I  am.  We  are  contemporaries  completely. 
She  is  interested  in  theater,  too.   Bert  has  been  interested  in 
theater  all  his  life.   For  a  while  he  was  mayor  of  Carmel.   He 
had  that  interlude. 

Teiser:   Could  you  tell  more  about  Perry  Newberry? 

Turner:   I  can't  tell  what  he  wrote,  but  I  am  sure  he  wrote  stories 

and  maybe  they  went  to  popular  magazines;  not  the  slicks,  but 
the  others.   He  didn't  have  a  big  reputation.   Bertha,  his  wife, 
used  to  write  poetry.   She  wrote  other  things  too.   She  died  a 
long  time  ago,  and  I  don't  know  about  Perry. 

Teiser:  You  mentioned  Michael  Williams. 

Turner:   Yesj  Mike  lived  there.   Grace  Wickham  Odhner  tells  me  he  came  from 
Canada  and  settled  in  Carmel.   He  wanted  to  be  a  writer  and  was 
writing.   He  was  drinking  heavily.   He  became  a  Catholic  and  gave 
up  drinking.   He  was  editory  of  the  Commonweal  for  quite  a  few 


37 

Turner:   years.   That  was  after  the  Carmel  period.   There  were  two  children, 
Marnie  and  Tippy.   Tippy's  name  was  Phillip.  Marnie  became  a 
nun,  and  Phillip  is  married  and  lives  in  Florida.   Grace  had 
that  letter  from  him  about  Halley's  Comet. 
Teiser:   Oh  yes,  the  one  you  mention  in  your  account  [in  the  Bancroft 

Library]  .   What  of  Harvey  Wickham? 

Turner:   Harvey  Wickham  was  Grace's  father.   He  was  really  what  you  would 
call  an  intellectual.   He  had  been  the  music  critic  on  the 
Chronicle.   He  and  his  wife  broke  up  finally.   His  wife  was  not 
an  intellectual  and  Harvey  was.   His  wife  was  a  fine  woman  all 


?*>  ,  ft 
the  same.   He  finally  left  Carmel.   He  married  Phyllis  Bottomo, 

the  English  novelist,  and  they  lived  in  Italy.   He  wrote  a  bo.>k. 

I  don't  remember  what  it  is.   He  died  there. 
Teiser:   It  sounds  as  if  some  people  who  had  made  a  reputation  in  \ 

elsewhere  were  inclined  to  go  to  Carmel  and  free-lance. 

correct? 

Turner:   Yes,  that's  right,  they  were. 
Teiser:  Was  living  inexpensive  there? 

Turner:   Yes,  it  was,  but  of  course  groceries  were  what  they  were  elsewhere. 
Teiser:   It  must  have  been  a  very  interesting  community. 
Turner:   That's  right.   There  were  some  college  professors  who  retired  there, 

too. 

In  those  days  I  was  studying  art.   I  liked  outdoor  sketching- 

landscape  with  figures.   I  studied  under  Townsley  and  one  summer 

under  the  famous  painter  William  Merritt  Chase.   And  I  sold  an 


38 

Turner:  an  occasional  poem  to  a  magazine. 

Teiser:  Did  you  meet  Lotta  Crabtree  when  she  visited  Carmel? 

Turner:   No,  but  John  did.   I  was  down  in  art  school  in  Pasadena  at  the 

time.  John  was  a  dignified  person  in  those  years.   You  just  didn't 
fool  around  and  act  silly  with  him.  Anyway,  at  the  reception 
that  was  held  for  her,  Lotta  Crabtree  walked  up  to  John,  said 
"Naughty,  naughty! "  and  chucked  him  under  the  chin.   I  thought 
that  was  the  cutest  story — that  she  did  that  to  him.   She  didn't 
know  John  was  a  dignified  type.  Maybe  she  guessed  it,  and  acted 
that  way  on  purpose.   Well,  he  couldn't  resent  it.   I  bet  he 
was  pleased. 


39 
SAN  FRANCISCO 

Turner:       I  have  to  tell  you  this,  I  don't  like  to;  but  we  did  separate. 
Then  I  went  to  San  Francisco  with  Juanita.   I  had  to  earn  my 
own  living  then.   I  used  to  work  in  offices  here  and  there. 

Teiser:   What  kind  of  jobs  did  you  do? 

Turner:   I  was  a  dictaphone  operator.   In  those  days  I  could  always  get 

that  kind  of  work.   I  still  wanted  to  write,  so  I  would  go  around 
San  Francisco,  which  was  very  familiar  to  me  from  my  childhood 
because  it  was  "the  City"  to  all  Bay  Area  people.   I  went  around 
San  Francisco  with  fresh  eyes  and  saw  things.   I  thought,  "My, 
the  city  is  full  of  beauty  and  drama  and  stories  of  all  kinds." 
I  wrote  a  series  —  they  were  free  verse,  but  not  exactly  verse  — 
they  were  on  different  subjects  and  I  finally  used  the  streets: 
Fillmore,  Third  Street,  California,  Mission,  etc,,   giving  them 
character  and  color.   I  am  trying  to  think  of  the  last  words  of 
my 'Fillmore  Street."   This  was  in  the  days  after  the  earthquake, 
when  life  had  more  or  less  concentrated  out  there,  but  it  was  still 
shabby.   This  is  the  way  I  ended  "Fillmore  Street":   "Searching 
for  glamor  or  who  knows  what  romance  at  one -third  off."    That's 
the  kind  of  writing  it  was.   I  sent  them  to  Fremont  Older,  who 
was  running  the  Call-Bulletin. 

Teiser:   Did  you  know  him? 

Turner:  No,  but  I  admired  his  reputation.   Within  half  an  hour--I  was 
working  at  General  Electric  then  as  a  dictaphone  operator- - 
within  half  an  hour,  he  called  me  up  and  told  me  they  were  accepted, 
He  was  awfully  nice  to  me.   Such  praise!   I  met  the  city  editor, 
too. 


40 

Teiser:  Who  was  he? 

Turner:  Arthur  something.   I  can't  think  of  his  name  at  the  moment. 
Was  it  Hoffman?  He  was  very  pleasant,  but  Fremont  Older  was 
the  one . 

Teiser:  What  was  Fremont  Older  like  as  a  person? 

Turner:  A  great  big  fellow.   He  sort  of  overwhelmed  you  looking  at  him. 
A  very  straightforward  person.   I  was  very  sensitive  then.   He 
asked  me  to  come  and  have  my  photograph  taken.   I  had  a  by-line. 
I  was  a  feature  writer  right  away.  "Pictures  of  San  Francisco" 
they  were  entitled.   I  had  to  go  and  have  my  picture  taken;  it 
was  the  coldest  day  in  thirty  years,  and  I  had  worn  a  very 
pretty  little  turban  type  hat  the  day  I  met  Fremont  Older, 
but  this  day  I  wore  a  wider  hat.   He  didn't  like  it;  he  was  mad. 
That's  the  way  he  was,  very  outspoken,  but  good.   That  series 
ran  for  a  while. 

Teiser:  What  year  was  that? 

Turner:   It  must  have  been  the  early  part  of  1923.   Then  he  wanted  me  to 
go  out  to  write  about  personalities  in  town,  but  my  style  is 
ironic.   Somehow  I  couldn't  see  myself  going  out  and  interviewing 
people  and  dealing  in  an  ironic  way  with  them.   So  I  gave  it 
up. 

By  June  of  that  year  I  was  co-editor  of  a  poetry  magazine, 
The  Wanderer .   It  was  the  day  of  the  poetry  magazine.   I  built 
it  up  and  got  recognition  here  and  there.   L.  A.  G.  Strong  in 
England  quoted  poems  from  it  and  said  it  was  one  of  the  best 
poetry  magazines. 


41 

Teiser:  There  is  a  file  of  it  in  the  University  of  California  Library. 
I  don't  know  whether  it  is  complete  or  not. 

Turner:   Yes,  I  know.   I  have  two  bound  files,  both  in  Mexico  at  the 
moment . 

Teiser:   Your  co-editor  was ? 

Turner:  Will  Aberle. 

Teiser:  Who  was  he? 

Turner:  Just  a  guy  who  liked  to  write  poetry.   He  was  the  "angel"-- 

he  paid  the  bills.   Finally  after  a  couple  of  years  he  took  me 
aside  and  told  me  we  would  have  to  stop  publishing  it.   That 
was  a  funny  story.  We  went  out  to  the  beach  and  he  told  me  out 
there  that  we  would  have  to  stop  publishing  The  Wanderer.  My 
heart  was  in  it,  and  I  began  to  cry.  A  cop  came  up  and  waved 
his  billy  club  at  Will  and  said,  "Whatever  you  are  doing  to  that 
woman,  you  stop  it!"  He  said  he  would  throw  Will  in  jail.   I 
said,  "You  wouldn't  do  that!   He  is  just  telling  me  we  have  to 
stop  publishing  our  poetry  magazine."  Well  you  never  saw  such 

a  face  as  was  on  that  cop! 

i 
Teiser:   Did  you  write  any  of  the  poetry? 

Turner:   I  wrote  some  of  it  under  a  pseudonym. 

Teiser:  What  was  it?  Can  you  remember  now? 

Turner:  Different  ones.   Frank  O'Hara,  I  remembes  was  one.   That  was 

one  that  was  reprinted  in  L.  A.  G.  Strong's  anthology,  but  I 

had  several  in  anthologies. 

I  kept  on  working  in  offices  and  doing  our  magazine  on  the 

side. 


42 

Teiser:   Oh,  you  had  not  stopped  working  in  offices  at  any  time? 
Turner:  No,  I  kept  on  working. 
Teiser:  Where  did  you  live? 
Turner:   Different  places  around  town.   I  went  to  live  in  the  "Monkey" 

Block—the  Montgomery  Block.   I  had  what  somebody  described  as 

a  salon.   It  wasn't;  it  was  just  a  lot  of  people  who  were  interested 

in  writing,  especially  poetry,  who  would  come.   Every  evening 

we  had  a  great  time. 
Teiser:  Who  were  there?  This  was  a  period  which  is  of  interest  now,  I 

think. 
Turner:  We  weren't  famous,  none  of  us.   It  was  a  striving  period.   I 

wrote  a  story,  a  novelette.   I  like  it  better  than  anything 

I  have  done.   I  sold  it  to  Story  magazine. 
Teiser:  What  was  it  called? 
Turner:   "Likewise  After  Supper."  I  liked  that  story;  I  really  put  myself 

into  it.   It  was  published  in  Story  around  1937,  some  years 

after  I  lived  in  the  Monkey  Block.   I  don't  remember  dates. 

Before  that  I  had  a  novel  published  —  in  1934.   [One-Way  Ticket] 
Teiser:  How  did  you  have  the  energy  to  both  write  and  work? 
Turner:   I  did  have  a  lot  of  energy.  My  child  was  staying  with  my  mother 

in  San  Quentin  most  of  the  time.   She  had  a  happy  time  over  there; 

she  loved  it. 

I  had  some  short  stories  published  in  Story  magazine,  too. 
Teiser:   Did  you  know  Anita  Whitney? 
Turner:   She  lived  on  Macondray  Lane  in  San  Francisco.   I  knew  her  a 

little.   I  found  her  a  very  lovely,  lovely  person.   I  didn't 

know  her  well  enough  to  keep  going  to  see  her. 


43 

Teiser:  What  did  she  look  like? 

Turner:   She  was  nice  looking.   Not  at  all  oldish  looking,  although  she 
had  plenty  of  years.   She  was  very  refined;  she  came  of 
educated  people  in  Boston,  I  think,  or  in  New  England  somewhere. 
She  looked  what  we  called  "the  lady,"  but  had  no  affected 
mannerisms  whatever.   She  was  very  simple. 

Teiser:   You  mentioned  that  you  had  two  trips  to  Europe. 

Turner:   Oh,  I'd  better  tell  you  about  those.   I  told  you  about  living 

in  the  Montgomery  Block  and  having  a  group  come  in  every  night. 
We  were  never  a  drinking  crowd.   It  sounds  as  if  living  in  the 
Montgomery  Block  with  a  whole  lot  of  writers  and  poets,  etc., 
that  we  might  have  been,  but  we  were  not. 

Teiser:  Were  you  a  talking  crowd? 

Turner:  We  were  certainly  a  talking  crowd.   How  the  r.afters  rang!   I 
don't  know  whether  you  know  of  her,  but  Marie  Welch,  who  was 
afterwards  Mrs.  George  West,  became  acquainted  with  me.   She 
came  from  a  very  wealthy  family.  We  were  all  poor  as  church  mice, 
and  we  didn't  know  how  she  could  be  attracted  to  us,  but  she  was 
a  good  poet.   I  recognized  the  quality  of  her  poetry.  She  has 
had  several  books  of  poetry  published.   She  was  shy  and  did  not 
know  how  to  handle  sending  out  her  poems.   I  knew  how  to  do  that. 
I  had  edited  The  Wanderer,  and  I  was  sending  out  the  poetry  of 
young  poets  and  my  own.   So  I  sent  out  her  poems,  and  I  had 
quite  a  few  acceptances  for  her.   In  those  days  it  wasn't  so  hard 
as  it  is  now.   I  never  expected  her  to  do  anything  for  me.   It 
was  not  in  that  spirit  that  I  did  it,  but  she  did  take  me  to 
Yosemite  and  we  had  a  lovely  time  together.   She  did  nice  things, 


44 

Turner:   and  we  went  to  her  house. 

Teiser:  Where  did  she  live? 

Turner:   She  lived  on  Broadway  in  a  beautiful  home.   So  she  gave  me  this 
trip  to  Europe.   It  was  wonderful.  A  lifelong  dream  of  mine  was 
to  go  to  Europe.   I  didn't  go  everywhere.   I  went  to  Paris;  that 
was  where  Marie's  mother  used  to  go  quite  often.   I  went  to 
England  and  Ireland.   I  wanted  to  go  to  Ireland.  My  father's 
people,  my  grandmother  and  grandfather,  were  Irish,  and  the 
other  side  were  English.   It  was  a  rather  short  trip.   I  didn't  stay  very 
long.    I  think  I  stayed  two  weeks  in  Paris,  about  ten  days  in 
Ireland  and  a  few  days  in  England.   It  was  a  lovely  trip. 

Teiser:  What  year  was  it? 

Turner:   1930. 

Teiser:   Right  in  the  Depression! 

Turner:   It  was  crazy!   Then  I  wrote  this  book,  One -Way  Ticket. 

Teiser:   How  did  you  happen  to  write  that? 

Turner:   I  had  always  wanted  to  write. 

Teiser:  But  to  undertake  a  novel  while  you  were  employed  so  fully! 

Turner:   Yes,  but  if  you  want  to  write  you  do  these  things. 

Teiser:   It  does  seem  like  a  great  deal  of  work. 

Turner:   It  was.   It  was  accepted.   Then  my  agent  sold  it  to  the  movies. 
First  it  was  sold  to  B.  P.  Schulberg — I  can't  remember  what 
company  he  was  with,  but  Columbia  finally  bought  it.   A  girl 
from  the  New  York  theater  played  the  lead,  Peggy  Conklin. 
She  never  went  on  with  movies. 

Teiser:  Was  she  good  in  the  picture? 


45 

Turner:  Yes,  she  was  just  fine. 

Teiser:  Did  they  call  the  movie  One-Way  Ticket? 

Turner:  Yes,  One-Way  Ticket.   I  saw  it  once,  but  I  never  went  to  see  it 
again.   I  couldn't  bear  it.   You  know,  they  seldom  make  them 
the  way  you  write  them.   They  just  take  all  kinds  of  liberties. 
They  just  take  it  and  do  what  they  please.  Most  writers  have 
had  that  experience,  I  think. 

Teiser:  Did  they  change  the  plot? 

Turner:   Yes.   They  had  a  big  prison  break  in  it,  and  it  was  all 
melodrama. 

Teiser:   I  liked  the  whole  book,  and  I  thought  it  had  a  perfect  ending. 

Turner:   I'm  glad  to  hear  you  say  that,  because  I  was  never  sure. 

Teiser:  You  were  not  called  in  to  help  write  the  script? 

Turner:   No. 

I  sold  the  book  to  the  movies,  so  I  went  to  Europe  again. 
But  I  still  didn't  get  to  Italy.   I  went  to  Paris  again,  and 
I  went  over  to  Berlin.   Hitler  was  in  power.  My  daughter  was 
with  me,  and  we  slept  in  a  hotel  with  an  awful  Nazi  flag  flying 
from  the  window.   That  was  1934.   Hitler  was  already  making  his 
weight  felt.   The  people  in  Paris  seemed  gay  and  carefree,  but  in 
Berlin  they  were  hangdog.   It  was  shocking. 

Teiser:  How  long  were  you  there? 

Turner:   Only  a  few  days. 

Teiser:  How  long  was  the  whole  trip? 

Turner:  The  whole  trip  was  about  three  months.   I  went  over  to  England 
and  stayed  a  while  in  London.   I  went  to  Ireland  and  stayed 


46 

Turner:  nearly  two  months  on  a  farm  in  County  Kerry.   I  wanted  to  see 
the  famous  Puck  Fair  in  August.   I  also  spent  some  time  on  the 
seacoast,  at  the  Strand  of  Rossbeigh.   I  didn't  get  to  the  north 
of  Ireland.  My  father's  family  came  from  County  Monaghan,  but 
I  didn't  get  up  there,  and  we  had  lost  track  of  them.   It  was 
so  long  ago. 

Teiser:  Was  your  daughter  with  you  the  whole  time? 

Turner:  No.   I  came  back  by  way  of  Scotland,  and  I  had  a  beautiful  trip 
through  Scotland.   I  love  Scotland.   So  that  was  about  it.   I 
wish  I  had  seen  more.   Italy.  And  I  wish  I  had  seen  the 
Scandinavian  countries  too,  but  I  didn't. 

Teiser:  Did  you  write  about  your  trips  at  all? 

Turner:   One  short  story  came  out  of  it,  "Eclipse."  It  was  published  in 
Story  magazine.  I  wrote  another  short  story,  "Sitting  in  the 
Kitchen." 

[The  following  paragraph  and  the  brief  essay  on  the  Stage  and 
Studio  Club  were  written  out  by  Mrs.  Turner  for  inclusion  in 
this  interview  at  the  request  of  the  interviewer.] 

In  the  early  twenties,  while  in  San  Francisco,  I  began  to 
associate  with  fellow  creative  spirits.   I  was  a  member  of  the 
Poetry  Club,  in  which  Gladys  Wllmot  Graham  was  the  most  active 
member.   I  was  one  of  the  first  members  of  the  Western  Arts 
Association,  founded  by  Raine  Bennett  (a  poet)  and  run  by  him. 
We  met  first  in  Arnold  Genthe's  old  home  out  on  Clay  Street,  and 
later  took  over  the  big  Raphael  Weill  home  on  top  of  Russian  Hill. 


47 

There  were  many  interesting  gatherings  up  there.   I  remember 
meeting  Rebecca  West. 

Then  there  was  the  Stage  and  Studio  Club.  Attached  is  a 
brief  account.  My  memory  was  stirred  by  Paul  Romer  recently. 
He  is  a  very  good  artist,  who  lives  at  22  Broadmoor,  San  Anselmo. 
He  was  one  of  our  most  enthusiastic  members.   He  gave  a  talk  on 
art  at  one  of  our  meetings. 

I  remember,  too,  a  small  group  of  poets  who  met  weekly. 
Two  of  them:  Genevieve  Taggard  and  Rolfe  Humphries.  My  taste  in 
this  period  was  greatly  influenced  by  The  Sun  Also  Rises  - 
Hemingway;  Peter  Whiffle  -  Carl  van  Vechten;  The  Magic  Mountain  - 
Thomas  Mann. 

STAGE  and  STUDIO  CLUB 

San  Francisco,  California 

This  Club  was  founded  by  Ethel  Wickes  in  1922.   Ethel 
Wickes  was  an  artist,  at  that  time  in  her  late  thirties.   She 
was  know  as  the  "goose  woman"  because  she  often  painted  geese, 
very  successfully.   She  also  painted  California  wild  flowers, 
and  the  series  was  frequently  on  exhibit,  notably  in  Golden 
Gate  Park.  My  cousin  Fred  Smith  was  a  good  friend  of  "Wicksie," 
and  he  helped  her  organize  the  Stage  and  Studio  Club.   It  was  to 
be  exclusively  for  those  who  were  doing  something  in  the  arts, 
either  creating  or  practicing.  My  sister  Alma  and  I  joined  through 
our  cousin  Fred,  who  was  directing  plays,  acting  and  writing 
plays  of  his  own;  he  was  also  painting.   I  have  a  list  of  27 
members.   I  am  listed  as  "poetess  and  writer,"  but  I  also 


48 

Turner:  painted.  When  an  exhibition  of  paintings  was  held,  I  had  one 
canvas  -  of  Washington  Square  (Greenwich  Village)  in  the 
winter,  with  bare  trees,  and  the  old  church  across  the  square. 

We  held  programs  every  week.   I  was  horrified  the  other 
day  to  see  that  I  gave  a  lecture  on  "Early  Chinese  Literature." 
What  did  I  know  about  the  subject?  But  when  you're  young  you 
dare  to  do  anything.   Several  times  musical  programs  were  given. 
There  was  considerable  talent  among  us.  We  met  every  Friday 

evening . 

We  served  coffee  and  cake.   The  spirit  in  our  club  was 
joyous  and  friendly.  All  went  well  until  we  started  to  accept 
as  members  those  who  neither  created  nor  practiced  the  arts. 
"The  bloom  was  off  the  rose." 

Shortly  after  this  episode  in  my  life,  Will  Aberle  and  I 
started  The  Wanderer,  a  poetry  magazine. 


49 
RETURN  TO  MEXICO 

Turner:   During  that  period  I  was  writing  and  writing,  but  my  mind  was 
going  back  to  Mexico.   I  wrote  verse,  and  I  continued  to  write 
verse  until  1960  when  I  became  ill.   Now  I  probably  will  write 
verse  again.   Eventually  I  began  to  write  about  Mexico.   I  was 
reading  a  lot,  going  back  to  the  history  of  Spain,  even.   First 
I  started  to  write  a  history  of  Mexico  from  what  I  thought 
was  a  little  different  angle.   It  was  into  the  early  1940's. 
There  wasn't  much  production  on  my  part  during  those  years.    I  did 
not  finish  the  history  of  Mexico.   In  1950  I  made  a  trip  to 
Mexico. 

Teiser:   You  had  not  been  there  in  all  those  years? 

Turner:  Not  since  I  got  sick  in  Cuernavaca  and  came  home.   I  went  in 
1950,  and  I  met  people  who  had  fought  through  the  Revolution 
one  way  or  another.   I  made  contacts. 

Teiser:  Had  you  maintained  contacts  over  this  period? 

Turner:  No,  I  hadn't.   I  used  to  see  John  once  in  awhile  in  Carmel,  and 
I  told  him  what  I  was  doing.   He  seemed  very  enthusiastic,  but 
he  wouldn't  do  it  himself.   He  should  have.   His  relatives 
always  said  that  I  was  the  one  behind  him  who  made  him  tick  about 
Mexico. 

Teiser:  He  did  not  write  a  great  deal  afterwards? 

Turner:  Not  very  much.   He  wrote  articles  on  labor  for  the  Scripps  papers. 

Teiser:   I  remember  reading  in  Ella  Winters'  autobiography  that  when  she  and 
Lincoln  Steffens  went  to  Carmel,  John  Kenneth  Turner  had  come 
loping  down  the  hill  and  was  selling  real  estate. 


50 

Turner:  Oh,  we  laughed  about  that--my  friends  down  in  Mexico.   She  came 
down  to  Cuernavaca  with  Donald  Ogden  Steward,  and  I  saw  her  again 
after  all  those  years. 

Teiser:  What  was  she  like? 

Turner:   Pretty  well  self-centered.  A  very  brilliant  woman.   She  did 
good  things,  but  she  loved  Ella. 

Teiser:  Was  that  an  accurate  picture  of  John  Kenneth  Turner? 

Turner:   Oh,  I  don't  think  so;  we  thought  it  was  funny  that  the  man  who 
wrote  Barbarous  Mexico  would  get  this  kind  of  treatment. 

Teiser:  Was  he  actually  selling  real  estate  at  any  time? 

Turner:  Yes. 

Teiser:  Had  you  maintained  an  interest  in  Mexico  through  the  years? 

Turner:   It  was  dormant  all  the  time.   I  met  some  people,  and  we  finally 
talked  about  it.   One  was  a  Mexican.   I  made  an  exploratory  trip 
down  there  in  1950  and  contacted  some  people  who  are  still  my 
friends  down  there  today. 

Teiser:  People  you  had  known  earlier? 

Turner:  No,  but  who  had  known  of  the  whole  situation.   You  know,  that's 
the  book  I  am  writing  now.   It  is  about  the  participation  of  the 
North  Americans  in  the  Revolution,  before  and  during.   There 
are  so  many  stories  that  are  full  of  drama  and  yet  are  true  that 
I  think  it  will  be  all  right. 

Teiser:   These  are  people  you  knew  first-hand? 

Turner:   Some  of  them.   I  am  telling  the  whole  story.   I  am  taking  the 
whole  Liberal  Party,  but  especially  the  participation  of  the 
North  Americans.   I  have  plenty  about  those  that  we  knew  very 
well.   It's  a  great  time  in  life  to  start  writing  that  way. 


51 

Teiser:  You  said  you  had  gone  to  Mexico  in  1950? 

Turner:  Yes,  at  that  time  I  was  trying  to  decide  whether  I  wanted  to  go 
down  there  and  live.   I  made  a  trip  and  stayed  about  a  month.   I 
renewed--  you  see,  the  whole  thing  was  never  strange  to  me.   It 
seemed  as  if  I  belonged  there.  After  all,  we  lived  so  intensely 
in  those  early  days.   John  and  these  others,  especially  Elizabeth 
Trowbridge  and  myself,  were  so  wrought  up  by  what  John  and 
Lazaro  Gutierrez  de  Lara  had  discovered,  about  the  horrible 
slavery  where  they  bought  people  for  so  much  a  head.   Sometimes 
they  didn't  even  buy  them,  they  just  seized  them.  After  that 
their  life  expectancy  could  be  about  six  months,  because  they 
worked  them  to  death.  We  were  so  wrought  up  by  this  that  we 
felt  it  our  duty  to  do  what  we  could  to  get  rid  of  that  situation. 

So  you  see  how  it  was the  emotional  part  of  it.   Those  things 

go  so  deeply  that  you  can't  ever  eradicate  them.   I  have  never 
been  able  to.   I  lived  those  years  over  and  over,  even  in  Carmel. 
When  I  first  went  to  Carmel,  I  almost  had  a  nervious  breakdown 
from  the  quiet  and  the  change  from  extreme  activity  to  quietness. 
I  couldn't  get  used  to  it  for  a  while. 

Teiser:  When  did  you  decide  to  return  to  Mexico  to  live? 

Turner:   I  went  to  live  there  in  1955  . 

Teiser:  Did  you  go  to  Cuernavaca? 

Turner:  No,  to  Mexico  City.   I  lived  very  inexpensively  there. 

Teiser:  Where  did  you  live? 

Turner:   It  was  out  towards  San  Angel.   It  was  called  a  compound;  that  is, 
there  were  several  houses.   It  was  very  nice;  I  liked  being  there. 


52 

Teiser:  Was  that  where  you  first  knew  Alma  Reed? 

Turner:  Yes,  I  did  not  know  her  here  in  San  Francisco.  We  had  mutual 

friends.   In  fact,  the  other  day  I  went  over  with  one  of  my  sisters 
and  had  dinner  with  Gobind  Behari  Lai,  who  is  the  science  editor 
of  the  Examiner.   He  has  been  for  many  years  and  was  syndicated 
when  the  Hearst  papers  were  around  more.   He  knows  Alma  Reed. 
Lai  is  a  Hindu  from  India.   He  was  telling  me,  "I  am  in  three 
parts;  I  belong  to  three  cities,  Delhi,  India;  San  Francisco; 
and  New  York.   He  was  in  New  York  28  years,  but  I  knew  him  when 
he  was  a  young  fellow  out  here,  before  the  Montgomery  Block 
days.   He  is  a  brilliant  man.  He  asked  me  to  dinner,  and  I  said 
I  wanted  a  Chinese  dinner.   He  took  us  to  a  place  called  The 
Mandarin  out  on  Polk  and  Vallejo. 

Teiser:   That's  north  Chinese  food,  isn't  it? 

Turner:   Yes,  it's  very  sumptuous,  but  I  like  the  plain  old  stuff  you  get 
in  Chinatown.   Anyway,  we  had  quite  a  talk.   My  sister,  Alma 
was  listening  and  she  said,  "Your  memory  seems  to  be  all  right. 
You  were  just  clicking,  talking  about  this,  that,  and  the  other 
person."  Sometimes  I  forget,  though. 

About  Alma  Reed.   I  knew  Alma  in  Mexico.   I  had  been  there 
about  a  year  before  I  met  her.   I  met  a  couple  JosS  and  Ruth 

Gutierrez he  is  an  artist  and  she  was  a  schoolteacher  then,  but 

they  have  their  own  business  now.   He  invented  a  paint  called 
Polytec  and  has  been  very  successful  with  it.   Some  of  the  biggest 
artists  are  using  it,  Siqueiros  for  one.   Anyway,  that  day 
Ruth  said  to  me,  "There  is  someone  that  you  absolutely  must  know,  and 


53 

Turner:  her  name  is  Alma  Reed."  But  I  did  not  meet  her  through  them.   I 
cannot  recall  how  I  met  her.  We  hit  it  off  right  away.  We  were 
both  from  San  Francisco  and  we  had  mutual  friends.  We  just  fell 
together  and  have  been  that  way  ever  since.   If  you  think  that  I  am 
a  live  wire  in  any  way,  Alma  is  so  much  more  so!   She  is  on  so 
many  things  and  does  so  much.   She  goes  to  conventions  and  meetings 
all  over  the  world.   She  has  a  column  in  the  English  language 
Sunday  paper  in  Mexico.   She  writes  books.   She  is  the  journalist 
for  Cedam,  which  is  a  deep-sea  exploration  organization.   She  goes 
to  archeological  conventions.   She  has  lots  of  honors.   She  is 
an  Aztec  Eagle,  and  very  few  people  get  into  that.   You  would 
think  she'd  be  impossible,  but  she  is  not.   She  is  nice, 
straightforward,  and  simple.   In  the  last  letter  she  wrote  me 
she  said,  "When  I  finish  this  book"--that 's  the  story  of  her 
romance  with  Felipe  Carrillo  Puerto — and  she  will  finish  that  in 
a  little  while--"!  am  going  to  take  it  a  little  more  easily."  * 

Teiser:  When  did  you  move  from  Mexico  City  to  Cuernavaca? 

Turner:  In  1961.   Because  I  had  pneumonia  and  the  doctors  said  that 
Mexico  City  was  too  high  and  the  climate  was  too  harsh. 
Cuernavaca  boasts  that  it  has  the  most  beautiful  climate  in  the 
world,  and  it  is  not  far  from  wrong.   I  don't  know  how  it  could  be 
better. 

Teiser:   I  wanted  to  ask  about  the  circumstances  of  the  publication  of  your 
book  on  Flores  Magon. 

Turner:  I  wanted  to  write  it  because  the  people  who  knew  the  story  were 
dropping  off.   There  wasn't  anyone  around  to  do  it.   So  I  met 
LSzaro  CSrdenas,  the  former  president,  who  appropriated  the  oil. 


* 

Alma  Reed  died  November  19,  1966- 


54 

Turner:  He  was  the  best  president  they  ever  had,  and  is  a  wonderful 
person.   I  was  introduced  to  him  and  it  was  proposed  that  I 
go  to  Uruapan  and  write,  and  he  would  pay  all  my  expenses  while  I 
wrote  the  book.   So  I  was  put  up  at  a  posada  [inn]  and  he  paid  all 
my  living  expenses  while  I  wrote  the  book.   I  wrote  it  in  six 
months  because  it  was  so  fresh  in  my  mind.   I  wrote  it  three 
or  four  years  before  it  was  published--it  was  published  in  1960. 
But  in  those  days,  I  could  make  a  card  catalogue  of  my  head  and 
pull  facts  out,  dates  and  everything.   Of  course,  I  would  double 
check  afterwards.   I  was  in  a  lovely  place,  very  comfortable  in 
every  way. 

Teiser:  Wasn't  it  a  government  publication? 

Turner:  Oh,  yes,  it  was  published  by  the  State  of  Michoaca"n.   That  was 
where  CSrdenas  had  the  most  influence.   He  was  from  Michoacan. 
There  were  only  1,000  copies,  and  the  Governor  appropriated  700 
of  them  for  himself --for  the  State,  so  he  said.   I  don't  trust  these 
politicians.   It  never  got  into  the  book  shops,  but  it  might  be 
published  again. 

Teiser:  What  do  you  think  happened  to  the  700  copies? 

Turner:   I  never  have  heard. 

Teiser:   Did  300  come  to  you? 

Turner:  Yes.   I  gave  them  to  people  to  whom  it  would  mean  something, 
but  I  sold  a  few. 

Teiser:  Did  the  State  undertake  all  the  publication  costs? 

Turner:   Yes.   You  wrote  it  in  English  and  then  it  was  translated? 

Turner:   Yes.   I  never  have  done  anything  with  the  English  original 


55 
Turner:   because  I  am  going  to  do  this  other  book  that  will  interest 

Americans  more. 
Teiser:   I  believe,  in  an  interview  that  a  member  of  the  Chronicle  staff 

had  with  you  about  a  year  ago,*  there  was  a  mention  of  the 

possibility  of  republishing  Barbarous  Mexico. 

Turner:   It  has  been  republished  in  Spanish,  but  not  in  English. 
Teiser:  There  is  no  thought  of  it  then? 
Turner:   It  has  never  been  followed  through  as  yet,  but  I  expect  to  try  it 

out  soon.   I  have  not  shown  you  the  articles  on  me  in  El  Dfa. 

They  ran  five  days  in  the  daily  paper  down  there,  in  April  this 

year.   I  have  been  written  about  in  Mexico  in  other  ways.   I  don't 

know  why,  except  that  I  belong  to  a  period  when  there  aren't  too 

many  left. 


•k 

Judy  Stone, 'Mexican  Reflections  of  'A  wild  One,"  "This  World1 
section,  San  Francisco  Chronicle,  March  14,  1965,  pp.  29-30. 


56 


PARTIAL  INDEX 


57 


Aberle,  Will,   41,  48 
Alfaro  Siquelros,  David,   52 
American  Magazine,   16-17,  18,  19 
Ashurst,  Henry  F.,   30 

Barbarous  Mexico,  by  John  Kenneth  Turner,   1,  15,  16,  18,  19-20,  30 

31,  50,  55 

Bechdolt,  Fred,   34-35 
Bennett,  Raine ,   46 
The  Border,   15,  16 
BottomeT-Phytthrr — 3-7 

Cardenas,  Lazaro,   53-54 
Carael  (California),   29-38,  51 

Carrillo. Puerto.  FeUpe,   53 
Chase,  William  Merntt,   37 

Clark,  James  B.   ("Champ"),   20 

Conklin,  Peggy,   44 

Connolly,  Ina,   28 

Crabtree,  Lotta,   38 

Cuernavaca  (Mexico),   17,  49,  50,  53 

Davis,  Richard  Harding,   30 

Diaz,  Porfirio,   2,  10,  14,  20,  21,  24,  30,  31 

5'v^i  PM'.''*    33 
Duffy,  Clinton,  4 

Duffy,  William  Joseph,   2 
Duffy,  Mrs.  William  Joseph,   2 
Duffy,  William  Joseph,  Jr.,   3 

Earthquake  and  fire,  San  Francisco,  1906,   8 
"Eclipse"  by  Ethel  Duffy  Turner 

Flores  Mag6n,  Enrique,  22-23 

Flores  Mag6n,  Ricardo,  2,  10,  11-12,  15,  22-23,  53,  54 

Forest  Theater,  Carmel,  36 

Fresno  Republican,   8 

Genthe,  Arnold,   46 

Gilogly,   Eleanor,   5 

Graham,  Gladys  Wilmot,   46 

Gurrero,  Praxedis,   23 

Gutierrez,  JosS   (Mr.  and  Mrs.),   52 

Gutierrez  de  Lara,  Lazaro,   14-15,  20,  51 

Harriman,  Job,   10 

Hearst,  William  Randolph,   31-32 

Heron,  Herbert,   36 

Hopper,  James  (Jimmy),   33-34 

Humphries,  Ralph,   47 


58 

Jones,  Mary  ("Mother  Jones"),   20-21 
Kelly,  Clinton,   7 

Lai,  Gobind  Behari,   52 

Lewis,  Sinclair,   29 

"Likewise  After  Supper"  by  Ethel  Duffy  Turner,   42 

London,  Charmian,   25-28 

London,  Jack,   25-28 

London,  Joan,   28 

Los  Angeles,   1,  2,  7,  8-15,  18-19,  22-24,  26-27,  31 

Los  Angeles  Herald,   8-9 

Los  Angeles  Record,   10 

Los  Angeles  Times,   31 

Madero,  Francisco  I.,   23,  24,  29,  30 

"The  Mexican"  by  Jack  London,   27 

Mexican  Herald ,   17 

Mexican  Revolution,   1,  12,  23-24,  26,  29,  31,  49,  50 

Mexico  City,   17-18,  29-31,  51,  53 

Montgomery  Block,  San  Francisco,   42,  43 

Murray,  John,   11,  14,  15,  16,  20,  21 

Newberry,  Bertha  (Mrs.  Perry),   36 
Newberry,  Perry,   36 
Noel,  Frances 

see  Noel,  P.  D. ,  Mr.  and  Mrs. 
Noel,  P.  D.,  Mr.  and  Mrs.,   10-11,  18 

Odhner,  Grace  Wickham,   36,  37 

O'Hara,  Frank,   41 

Older,  Fremont,   39-40 

One-Way  Ticket  by  Ethel  Duffy  Turner,   3,  42,  44-45 

Oregon  Journal,   8 

Palmer,  Eugenia  Amanda 

see  Duffy,  Mrs.  William  Joseph 
Palmer-Barrett  genealogy,   2-3 

"Pictures  of  San  Francisco"  by  Ethel  Duffy  Turner,   40 
Poetry  Club,  San  Francisco,   46 
Portland,  Oregon,   7,  8 

Reed 7' Alma,   52-53 

Regeneraci6n,   22-23,  26-27 

Rivera,  Librado,   10,  11-12,  15,  22-23 

Romer,  Paul,   47 


59 

Sandels,  Robert,   4 

San  Francisco,   8,  39-48,  52 

San  Francisco  Call-Bulletin,   39-40 

San  Quentin,  3-4,  5,  8,  17,  42 

San  Rafael  High  School,   3,  5-6 

Sarabia,  Manuel,  10,  11,  15,  16,  20-21,  29 

Schilling,  Hugo  Karl,   5-6 

Siqueiros 

see  Alfaro  Siqueiros 

"Sitting  in  the  Kitchen"  by  Ethel  Duffy  Turner,   46 
Smith,  Fred,   47 
Socialism,   7,  10,  25 

Stage  and  Studio  Club,  San  Francisco,   46,  47-8 
Steffens,  Lincoln,   33,  49 

Sterling,  George,   26,  27,  29,  30-31,  32,  34 
Story  magazine,   42,  46 
Strong,  L.  A.  G.,40,  41 

Taggard ,  Genevieve ,   47 

Towns ley,   37 

"Tragic  Ten  Days,"  29-30 

Trowbridge,  Elizabeth,   11-12,  14,  15,  16,  18,  21,  29,  51 

Tucson,  Arizona,   15-16 

Turner ,  Enoch ,   7 

Turner,  John  Kenneth,   1-2,  4,  7-11,  14-24,  26,  29-33,  34,  38,  39,  49-50,  51 

Turner,  Juanita,   19,  35,  39,  42,  45 

U.  S.  House  of  Representatives  Rules  Committee,   20,  21-22 
University  of  California,   4-7,   25 

Villareal,  Antonio  I.   10,  11-13,  15,  22 

Wallace,  Grant  (Mr.  and  Mrs.),   35 

Wallace,  Kevin,   35 

Wallace,  Moira,   35 

The  Wanderer,   40-41,  43,  48 

Weill,  Raphael 

Welch,  Marie, 

see  West,  Mrs.  George 
West,  Mrs.  George,   43-44 
West,  Rebecca,   47 
Western  Arts  Association,   46 
Whitney,  Anita,   42-43 
Wickes,  Ethel,   47 
Wickham,  Harvey,   37 
Williams,  Michael,   36-37 


60 


Wilson,  Harry  Leon,   30,  33,  35 
Wilson,  Henry  Lane,   30-31 
Wilson,  William  B.,   20 
Winters,  Ella,  49-50 

Zang,  Mrs.  Alma  Duffy,   2,  5,  47,  52 
Zubler,  Mrs.  Grace  Duffy,   3,  4 


Ruth  Teiser 

Born  in  Portland,  Oregon;  came  to  the  Bay  Area 

in  1932  and  has  lived  here  ever  since. 

Stanford,  B.  A.,  M.  A.  in  English;  further  graduate 

work  in  Western  history. 

Newspaper  and  magazine  writer  in  San  Francisco  since 

1943,  writing  on  local  history  and  business  and 

social  life  of  the  Bay  Area. 

Book  reviewer  for  the  San  Francisco  Chronicle 

since  1943. 


Ethel  Duffy 
Turner  Dies 
In  Mexico 

Ethel  Duffy  Turner  who 
grew  up  at  San  Quentin  Pris 
on  and  later  became  actively 
involved  in  the  Mexican  rev 
olution,  died  last  Friday  at  a 
hospital  in  Cuernavaca.  Mex 
ico,  her  friends  learned  yes 
terday  She  was  84. 

A  resident  of  Mexico  since 
1955,  she  had  completed  the 
memoirs  of  her  Mexican  ex 
periences  shortly  before  her 
death  A  slight,  frail  woman 
of  fiercely  independent  spirit 
and  courage,  she  lived  alone 
in  Cuernavaca.  maintaining 
her  interests  in  world  events, 
an  inspiration  to  young  writ 
ers,  and  a  woman  honored  by 
the  Mexican  government. 

Her  earlier  book  on  Ricar 
do  Flores   Magon.   a   writer  j 
and  founder  of  the  Mexican 
Liberal  Party,  vho  formulat 
ed  plans  for  the  Mexican  rev 
olution  of   1908   against  the 
dictator  Porfirio  Diaz,  was 
published  in  Mexico  several  j 
years  ago 

SMUGGLED 

As  a  young  girl,  Mrs.  Turn 
er  had  smuggled  plans  for 
that  revolution  out  of  the  Los 
Angeles  county  jail  where 
Magon  and  his  associates 
were  being  held  for  violation 
of  the  neutrality  laws. 

When    the    Mexicans    told 
her   nusband.  the   late  John 
Kenneth     Turner,     about 
slave-labor  conditions  on  the 
henequen  and  tobacco  plan-j 
tations  in  Yucatan,  he  went 
xouth  to  i  n  v  e  s  t  i  g  a  t  e  and 
wrote  a  damning  indictment; 
against  the  Diaz  regime. 

Later,  in  1913,  under  the 
Madero  government.  Turner 
narrowly  escaped  execution 
by  a  Mexican  firing  squad. 
He  was  saved  only  by  the  in 
tervention  of  the  Carmel  poet 
George  Sterling  who  alerted 
newspaperstohis  plight. 
TurVier  later  wrote  "Hands 
Off  Mexico." 


ETHEL  TURNER 

Aide  to  revolutionaries 

NOVEL 

Mrs.  Turner,  who  had  been 
editing  an  anti-Diaz  English 
newspaper  in  Los   Angeles, 
returned    to    San   Francisco! 
where  she  wrote  a  column  of  | 
"free  verse  pictures  of  San 
Francisco"  for  the  old  San 
Francisco  Call,   then  edited 
by  Fremont  Older   Her  novel 
about  San  Q  u  e  n  t ;  n     'One- 
Way  Ticket,'    w.is  made  intq| 
a  film 
The  daughter  of   a   prison 

guard,  she  hated  the  h  ing- 
ings  at  the  prison  and  dis 
liked  te'liup  people  wiiere 
she  liver  i >i  brother  Clin 
ton  T  13'itty  later  became 
one  oi  the  most  famous 
wardi -i-  ul  SHU  (Juentin  He 
now  li .  <  *  :r  Va  nut  (.'reek 

In  .Kid  lion  io  him  she  is  ! 
survive, j  \>\  her  daughter. 
Mrs  Ray  Lusk  of  San  Ansel- 
mo;  two  brothers.  William,  a 
Woodland  farmer,  and  Ray 
a  retired  State  highway  offi 
cial  ;md  three  sisters.  Grace 
ZuUer.  Alma  Zang  and  Mrs. 
1..  A  Peters,  all  of  San  Ra 
fael.  Funeral  services  were 
held  in  Mexico.