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\\

FIRST SESSION-ELEVENTH PARLIAMENT

HJr»EIt:CEL

OK

MR GEO. H. BRADBURY

0!f

MANITOBA FISHEEIES

K

OTTAWA. THURSDAY, MAY W, 1069.

Mr. G. H. BRADBURY (Selkirk). I wish 1
to draw the attention of the Hou.se to a
statement rocarjinc the fisheries of Mani-
toba and Saskatchewan. This is a very
important question to a hirire numlier of
mv constituents, who are interested in tiie
fishing industry, as well as to the other
residents of these two provinces. It is im-
portant to my own constituency from the
fact that a lariie number of my constituents
depend for a livlihood upon the fisheries
and important to the other residents of tlie
two provinces from tlie fact that the man-
ipulations of the .\nierican combine have
increased the cost of fish to nearly double
what it ousht to be. Some fift-een or ei'.-li-
teen years aero tho.se who knew lake Win-
nipeg ami its wonilerfu! resources were
wont to boast that we liad in that province
the irreatcst whitefish fishery in the worl.l.
which promised an abundant, supply of
fish for all time to come for Manitoba and
the other provinces of the west. Early
in the seventies, a larcre number of Ice-
landic settlers were attracted to that
lake lareely on account of this crreat fish-
ery. These people settled along the south-
west shore of Lake Winnipeg, and, at that
time, found no difficulty in obtaining white-
3046—1

! 1

fish in larze quantities in the southern
part of the lake. They secured all the fish
they reqiiirel for domestic use and to sup-
ply at that time the market of Manitoba.
Tliis afforded triese people i nty of food
ready at their doors and promised a great
future industry to the settlers, an industry
fiom which these people, no doubt, expec-
ted to reap great benefit. But unfortunate-
y for their hopes and for our great fisher-
ies, the lar:.'e c.immercial interests that had
already depleted the fisheries in the lakes
of Ontario were not Ion? in scenting out l^ia
i;reat flsherv on Lake Wlnnipei; and, as
earlv as 1881, just as soon as railroad com-
nnmication made it possible, we find these
interests uetting ready for the work of de-
struction which thev have just about com-
pleted in that creat lake at the present
time. Mr. D. F. Reid and Mr. Clark, of
roUinirwood, were the pioneer fishermen of
that day. Mr. Reid is one of the commis-
sioners "appointed to investigate the fisher-
ies at this time. In 1881. he and Mr. Clark
established operations on the south end of
the lake and had no difficulty in securing
an abundant supply of whitefish lor the
market at that time. In 1885 they
put on a steam tug, and in one seasoa put

m^n »

\ V

i>\*iA**«

up l&O tons of flfh with a very small plant.
Thi« was the conimencenieiit of the export
of whitetish from Manitoba. As soon as our
fish reached the Chicago market, the great
American interests were not long in realiz-
ing that there was magnificent whiteflsh
in the western provinces. In IH86 we find
established in that lake what was called
the Manitoba Fish Com|<any. But in real-
ity it was an American concern, flC per cent
of the stock being owned or controlled by
gentlemen living in De^rnit. This company
started operations in a big way. They had
one or two steamers and a couple of tugs.
They had their large freezers, one at Swamp
island, one at Little Saskatchewan, and an-
other at Selkirk. For two years this com-
pativ. with the pioneer fish company, Reid
and Clark, took from 1,200 to LSOO tons of
fish in that lake, nearly all of which wore
exported to Chicago and other American
cities. These tlsh were cleaned and frozen
us soon n.-* taken out of the water and tielil
in freezers until the winter and shij)-
ped out of the provime during the winter
season. The fish at that time ovcr-
at'ed from 4J to 6 pcpunds each. The
men who eauirlit the fish, nur set-
tlers, Icelanders principally, received from
the American interests M cents a fish.
When I tell yc j tliat those same fish retail-
ed on the markets of Chicago and other
American cities for ten cents and twelve
cents per pound, you will realize the im-
mense profit that accrued to this American
interest. As early as 1890, the possibility
of the depletion of this great lake became
apparent. Repres<'ntatinns were made
to the Department oi Fisheries here by
prominent men in Manitoba and by the
settlers engaged in the business on Lake
Winniiieg. Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper,
then Minister of Marine and Fisheries, was
induced to send a commissioner to that
province to make investigation. He in-
structed Mr. Wilniot, who was then com-
missioner, to proceed to Manitoba and
make a thorough investigation of this ques-
tion. I have in my hand the report made
by Mr. Wilmot. and, for the information
of the House and for the information of the
minister, who, 1 know, is a very busy man,
and not likely to have time to read these
treat reports, I intend to read a few pass-
ages;

Ottawa, October, 1890.
The Hon. Charles H. Tupper,

Minister of Marine and Fisheries.
Sir,— Having received instructions from you
to go to Manitoba to examine into the condi-
tion of Lake Winnipeg fisheries, covering the
grounds mentioned in certain corresponaence
regarding the alleged depletion of whitefish,
and to investigate other matters connected
therewith; and having carefully read the num-
erous files of correspondence, relating to the
above subject, which have passed between the
Departments of the Interior and of the Fish-

ng Mnonally
nt fishing stal

TilitWl

stations on Lake

«riM ; and alio hAving

of the most important

Winnipeg, mentioned in the* aforesaid correi-
pondeuce, I beg to report, fur the information
of your department, the folln'ving views which
I entertain and the conclaiioni I have formed
an the subject matt -r under consideration.

Lnko Winnipeg lies partly in the two prov-
inces of Manitoba and Keewutin. It is the larg-
fit and mott important body of water in these
provinces, with an area of some 9,5S0 square
miles. Its extreme length takes in about 270
. les, and its greatest width is about 70 miles.
It runs in a line nearly north and south. The
southern half of the lake is very narrow, and
largely eat up with small bays and inlets, and
filled with numerous islands. The northern
nr upper half opens out to a width of some 60
miles, and covers nearly three-fourths of the
whole area <^ the lake.

The principal pro<luct from Lake Winnipeg
is the famous highly-priced whitefish, core-
genus albus which, lor domestic and coninier-
ciul purposes, no doubt stands foremost ou
the list of fresh water fishes in America.
These fish have been, and no doubt are yet,
quite numerous in L.tko Winnipeg, although
it is held by many persons, and truly so, that
in certain localities a depletion is already felt
from the wholesale methods of fishing practised
by certain fishing companies, who cnrrv ou
this industry quite e.\ten8ively almost wholly
for the United States markets.

Much controversy has arisen regarding this
alle)-fj excessive fishing in Lake Wiunipsg
lietweeii thest> fishing couipunies and leading
inhabitants of Manitoba, and also with the
setllers and Indian tribes around the lake,
which has culminated to such a degree at hist
as to call for the serious consideration of the
Dopartnioiits of the Fi>heries, and of the In-
terior to investigate this matter from a dis-
interested and lublic standpoint, not only
with regard to the above issues, but al<o in
the interests ef the general public.

It is therefore of vital importance to all
concerned that some practical solution should
be reached by which, if possible, the fishing
industries of Lake Winnipeg should not l)e
speedily impoverished, but shouH be main-
tained as a source of wealth, and luxury for
the inhabitants generally of Manitoba, both
for the present and future.

• •••••

There are several separate interests con-
nected with the fisheries of Lake WinnipeK
which are dealt upon somewhat lengthily in
the departmentnl correspondence referred to-
each claiming that the views held by them are
the correct ones, in so far as the question of
depletion of the whitefish in the lake is con-
cerned. These diSerent interests may be
classed as follows: —

1. The Indian tribes under the control of
the Department of the Interior claim that,
many parts of the lake which formerly sup-
plied them with the requisite abundance of
lish-food are now showing depletion by reason
of the excessive and wholesale fishing carried
on by certain large fishing corporations.

2. Prominent officials and leading citizens of
Manitoba also represent that Lak.» Winnipeg
is undergoing a falling oS in many localities
of its former whitefish crop, and that, there-
fore, means should be instituted to stay this

i 91J2S8

too rapid dMtraotion of fiih by jadicioai rit-
faUtioni, whioh, whilit protactiDs th* flih,
will not too Mriouly intorfero with th« fiih-
iag indaitriM of tbo ooantrT.
• •••••

Fir«t.— " Th* Indiani, knd th* interoiti of
th» i>*p«rtm«nt of tbo Interior.'
VolnminoM OTidano* ii givtn in th* corrot-

Kndano* thowing quit* conclaiiToly that th*
diau on wmo of th* roaarr** aronnd Lak*
WinniiMg »r« pnilaring from th* want of
their formar rapplioa of whit*ttih, which in
pait TMira war* obtain*d readily and in great
abondancei and notabl* inttanc** ar* r*Iat*d
wher* watara which at on* tim* w*r* teaming
with th*s* liih hav* now iMcom* very scarce,
and faari are entertained that the usuul Kup-
pliea of tiih-food for th* Indiana will loon be
at an end, and that this has been brought
about by orer-eahing at the ri' iitha of rirera
by fish trader!, who are permi .ed to carry on
this exceaaive fishing regardieiis of consequeu-
ees. It is also represented that unless this
McklesB system of fishing be dibcontiuued
these Indians, who are the wards of the gov-
•rnment, will hare to be supported by other
means from the public funds of the country.

These are no doubt pressing facts, and must
b* ao considered from an uninterested and
practical comprehension of the state of affairs
aa ther now exist. It is therefore "Mpedient
that the gavernment should meet t' s subject
in the spirit of reciprocity; as b< ween the
requirements of the Indian, the settler and
th* fiah trader each hare their rights and are
entitled to full consideration as inhabitants
of the country.

Second.— The statements made by prominent
individuals and leading inhabitants of Mani-
toba are, that over-fishing of the whitefish in
Lalie Winnipeg is being experienced, and is
steadily increasing, and that it should be
atayad, in the interests both of the present
and lucoiuing inhabitants of Manitoba and the
Northwest, and that the whitefish industry
ahould be studiously husbanded. This advocacy
for the preservation of the fishing wealth in
Lake Winnipeg br th* leading inhabitants of
Manitoba ahould be sustained by the Depart-
ment of Fisheries, in order to prevent a repe-
tition of said experiences which are now felt in
many of the waters in the eastern provinces,
where over-fishing has brought depletion to
inch an ext*nt as tu be almost wholly beyond
Ncovery.

Formerly this industry was pursued in the
lower or southern parts of the lake; but the
catch becoming much lessened there the fish
traders have established themselves about
midway up the lake, and at Selkirk island, at
th* head of the lake. The principal points for
their operations at present are at Bercn's
island. Reindeer island, and the mouth of
the LitUe Saskatchewan river, about midway
of the lake, and at Selkirk island, near the
mouth of the Big Saskatchewan, at the north
end. Other places may be only temporarily
fished; but the above named localities form
th* present headquarters of the fishing cum-
panie*.

At Beren's island a good natural harbour
ii formed on the southern side. Here the two
principal firms have each extensive ice-honsea
and freeaing-honses, alao landing piers for

20M-H

their ateam-tnga and barfaa; similar werka,
bnt laaa aztenaiv* ar* at Raindaer ialnnd and
at Selkirk island. But the most •xtenaiT*
buildings and works are inat at th* mouth ol
th* Little 8askatcb*wao river, where two oom-
I penlaa eaoh bav* larg* ie*-houa*«, freeaer*
I and piers on either side of the mouth of thta
I river, which la only abont 100 yarda wide.
Th* praaant mod* of fiahing by th* compan-
i*a ia with gill-nats, whioh ar* fish*d at cer-
tain distances off the ahor** of th*a* ialanda,
I varying from on* to six and t*n mil«a. accord-
ing to th* ' running' of th* whitefiah, aa it
ia Mrmed.

If sovere stoim<t prevail, which is very otten
the ease in the open lakes, these nets cannot in
many cases be lifted until the winds subside,
whicn may not be for several days, in whioh
case the fish in the meantime die, partial de-
composition sets in, and they become unfit for
use, and the whole catch, sometimea amount-
ing to many thousands, are thrown away.
(Jreat destruction is caused in this way, and
a question has arisen whether it would not
be better to do away with the gill net and
substitute the pound or trap net under cer-
tain regulations, as the pound net would not
only save the fish whioh are lost by the gill
nets, but would also raise the standard of the
, whitefish generally in the markets of th*
I country; whereas it is now somewhat lowered
[ by the many fish which are offered for sale
that are unwholesome for food, by reason of
the blemished fish whose injuriea and defect*
, are hidden by the freexing prooeaa. The pound
' net would no doubt be very acceptable to the
I fiahing companies generally, not only to ob-
viate the difficulties above mentioned, but on
l account of being less expensive in their gen-
eral working.
The quantity of gill nets set in Lake Winni-

?eg in 1889 covered about 60 miles in length,
'hcse gill nets, though apparently small, and
averaging but 6 feet in depth, are nevertheleae
from their many miles in length where set,
very deadly engines, and capable of causing
great havoc in circumscribed limits, auch aa
;.iiiiill Ui.v- .mil ri\.M-. As iiii .'viiliMni. of this
it may be stated here that in Lake Winnipeg,
where only three fishing companies are carry-
ing on the fishing trade, the quantity of whit^
fish reported to oe shipped by one firm alone
in 1889 amounted to 9,000 boxes of 130 pounds
each, making 1,170,000 pounds, the other two
companies making up a similar amoiint, thua
showing that this small number of tradera
are capable, with the present improved
methoda of fiahing, of capturing upwards of
two and a quarter millions of pounds of white-
fish in Lake Winnipeg during one short season
alone, the greater portion of which passed
directly out of the province, causing the home
consumption of Manitoba and ether parts of
the country to be only sparsely supplied, and
at high prices.

This taking of upwards of two and a quarter
millions of pounds of whitefish by these fishing
companies in Lake Winnipeg, more particu-
larly that portion of the catch taken at the
mouth of the Little Saskatchewan river,
must, in the common sense reasoning or
things, go to show, that originally intended
balance of nature regarding these fish is being
largely interfered with, and to such an extent

•r .caught by »ll oth.r flAormon. IndiMi »nd
iitUri in othof P»rU of th. lako during tho
wholo Bihing MMon^o'^tho yoar.

Tho following quoitionii rolnting to tho

whi?.«.ha.h.ri5. in L«;k«^'"'P!«V°«;]'Ji

■ittod for n>T coniidor»tion oro horowJta
UMworod foriktim:— j.„u*i«»

1. Whothor th.ro rooUy oiiit. » ,*'«^'^'V \
•f wbiUfith in th. w»t.r. »' L.k. Winn pogf

Th.r. ii k gradual but itwdr d.pUtjon of j
tho whit.aih product of Uko Winnipou going
on! from the .II*:tt of th. prw.nt .y.Um .1 .
Bshing in cortain parti of t" '»«•■ .

«. If io. in what water*, and what ar« th. j
oaoMs of it? .. „ !

Tho depletion is experienced more particu- |
Urlr at the mouthi of the larger riveia. and ,
,^ tho lower parts of the lake. partKularly ,
in the Little Saskatchewan rirer and ht.
Martin's lake, caused by ovor-Bshing at im- ,
proper times, notably at the mouth and buy of :
IheXittle Saskatchewan river. Ihis cause, if
permitted ti. be continued here, and tu be al-
lowed in other places similarly situated in
other parts of the lake, must assuredly hapten

rapid depletion and eventually termination
of the whitefiih ir 'ustry of Lake Winnipeg.
3. What areth.- <mediM? . » .u

Th. remedies nre to reasonably restrict tne

wholiwil.. Ii-liiim ii"W .uMied 1)11 by tlie hsli-

11,1,' iiinipaiiii^. Iiv judicious reKulatiiuin, and to

wholly prevent these companies, and others,

from tishiug in certain well known localitieM,
-here the whiteKsii congregate m great uui:i-

^.s prior to tho close season and preparatory

to their breeding time.

• .•■••

Mr. Wiliiiot. wlio was tlioii the Com-
miiwioiior ul Ki»lario.<, nporteJ that if
these ooiiipiiuies were alluwod to continue
taking such t-'reat ([uautities of lisli out of
the lake each vrar the waters would surely
be depleted. After the evidence contained
in this report an J the finUinas of the com-
mission it would be only reasonable to as-
sume that the Fishery Uoparliiient would
have seen to it that lishin-j on the scale then
in vcgue would have been checked. In-'ead
of that we lind that these large coninitrcial
companies were allowed to increase their
operations and instead of two fishini; com-
panies there were four or five large com mer-
mcrcial companies operating in that lake.
Thi' result is, as Mr. Wilmot predicted, that
the lake is rai>i.ily becoming depleted of
lish.

Mr. BRODEUR. Is my hon. trien<I not
aware tliat the reeomniendations contained
in that report were adopted by the depart-
ment?

Mr. BRADBURY. No. the recommend*-

tion. in that report were not »<1°?!;«'J, .»'^!

of the recommendations were adopted, but

the chief recommendation. th»t eommercl.l

f^sliliiB ihould be checked, was not ftdopt«d.

The recommendation as to defining th.

boundaries where commercial fi»hing tjould

be allowed was adopted, but even that U

,'b:en violated by the fishing comp.me.

within the la*t two y«»ri by fl«hing »n

i I'laygreon lake.

At tlx o'clock the House took recett.

After Beceu.

Hou-ii' resumed at eifjht o'clock.

Mr BR.\DBURY. Mr. Spriker, at six
o'clock I was drawing the alt<'ntion of tho
House to a statement of the luanti'V J'
"hiU-ti-h taken out of Lake Winnipeg
from 1890 to 1907 by the comerciol com-
panieji. 1 will not weary the House by
rea.iintt 'he full statement but will intent
mvseH with making one or two quotations
from this sUlenieiit and. with your permis-
sion. I will hand the Uatemeiit in to Han-

s'lrd' . „.

Whitefish Whitelish Sturg><"ia

Lake shipiwd from
Winnipeg. Manitoba.

Lbs. Lbs. Llh.

2.2M,000

ISflO..
IhM. .
IsM..
lH9t..
1»9.'). .
iHiW..
IK97..
1S!W. .
IM!t..
1900..

3,068,790

3,873.000
, 2.370,000
, 2.659,000
. 3,470,NfiO
. 3,270,000
. 2.,i37.«00

1.966.000
, 3,895.000

5.0<M).000

3,499.520
5,M3.000
7,276,000
7,Wt,.T00
9.100.000
8.800,000
6.000.500
6.136.000
3.69.5.000

4.M.787

9ai.soo

600.000
600.000
600,000
600.000
600.000
325.000
177.000

PM)-.' ' " . ■ 6,000,000

190.")' 7.000.000

190l" 6.000.000

lin)-," 6,500.000

iljoii ' 5.000.000

{907:: :. i.ow-ww

In I8'.f.'. when Mr. Wilniot. the then com-
„..issioner. made his report, they were
tikinu' '2'25O(10() 11.^. of Nvhite fish out of
'.ake Winnipeu' Mr. Wilniot at that tune
pointed out clearly that if this continued,
vithin a very short time. Lake Winnipeg
would be depleted. We mi'-'ht naturally
h;ive ..xpectcd that the department at that
lime and since would have endeavoured
to curtail the quantity of v,hitetish that
was being killed in Lake Winnipeg, but.
in.-^tead of that, we find that year after
vear this amount increased until, in 1903.
"there were 7.000,000 lbs of whitefish taken
cut of Lake Winiiii>eg by the .\mericaii
fish combine. In all during these seven-
teen years this American combine took out
„f this lake about 68.000,000 11>8. of whitelish
and there was a total shipment from the

#>*

province of Manitoba ol M.OOO.OOO Ibf., the
(iklance being taken out of Lake Manitoba
and Lake Wlnnlpegosla. In addition to that
there were 5,320.000 Iba. ol iturgeon. ThU
valuable flub. I may *ay, li ahnoit extinct
in Lake Winnipeg. The lake haa almoit
been depleted and the reason for that u
that it l«ke» a very long time for iturgeon
to mature. It taket about twelve or thirteen
yean for a iturgeon t'> reach the weight
at from 10 to 16 lb». We have had Blur-
geon taken out of Luke Wlnnlpeir that
weighed 125 lbs.
Mr. HENDERSON. How old are they?

Mr BRADBURY. Some of them are
ieventy years of age.

Mr. HENDERSON. That is a fishy
•tory.

Mr. B1.\DBURY. While the»e figures
iihow the amount of fish put up by the lurce
• American fl»h combines, they do nut l"-
gin to account for the amount of tigh kiUei!
by the methods <^niployed by the Ameri-
can fish Interests uiiJ by other commerciul
companies. It is well known that tlie
method of fishing In Lake Winnipeg is I
the uill net. We have had as much as sixty
milos uf gill net stretched in Lake Win-
nipeg at one time by these coininercial
companies. During the month of Septem-
ber «c have as a rule, very stormy wea-
ther. There are days and days when the
fishermen cannot visit the nets. The con-
sequence is that the nets are killing fi*!!
all the time. Some of these nets are swept
away from their moorings and lost, and,
goinir (loatinu through tlu' lake, the most
deadly engine one could imagine, killing
fish and polluting the water as tln-y pass
through the waters until they are thrown
up on some beach where hundreds of tons of
fish lie rottinL', and polluli" tin wat>r. This
Sir, is one of the greatest factors, and, 1 may
say. it is the greatest factor in the .lepletion
and destruction of our once great whitefish
industry in I/akc Winnipeg. Unfortunately
for our fisheries and for our settlers along
Lake Winnipeg, almost immediatily after
Mr. Wilniot hRti made his report and had
pointed out the danger to the Lake Win-
nipeg fishing industry from the methods
practised by tlu lartie combines, he retired
from office being Men an old man and a man
of very great experience. Mi. Wihnot had
been in the employ of the government for
m.any years and he had been under, 1 be-
lieve, the best deputy that the Department
of Marine and Fisheries ever had. 1 am
speaking of the late William Smith. He,
Wilmot. understood what tliese interests had
done alone the shores of the great lakes in
Ontario, he knew whit their methods had
resulted in and lie knew that they would
result in similar destruction in Lake Winni-

ptig. He pointed out in hit report, in a very
specific and clear manner, what Uioae
ciimpanlei were going to do in Lake Win-
nipeg if not restricted, and it is remark-
able that the department did not act mora
vigorously upon that report. He retired ■•
I have said just alter making thia report,
and the gentleman who was appointed to fill
hii position was the present comniiaeloner,
Prolesaor Prince, a man who came to this
country Irom the old land entirely ignorant
of tlie conditions that prevailed on Lake
Winnipeg, entirely ignorant of the meth-
ods practised by the American fish in-
terests and entirely ignorant of the reiulta
of those methods on the Ontario lake*. Con-
sequently, when he came to Manitoba he
was handira[>ped in such a way as to make
it almost impossible for him to realise
tliat there was any ureat danger of the de-
[ilition of Lake Winnipeu by the methoda
Practised by the coinnu'reiai inti rests. No
(.oubt th's "idea was created and supported
.strongly by the then resident inspector ol
lislicrie"?, " I speak of the late Latouche
Tupi)er. I know it is an old maxim, which
I intend lareely to follow to-niirht, to always
speak well of the dead, bJt to do justice
U.} this suiiject I must tell the Houae
the truth regarding what I believe to l>e
till- cause of the depletion of that great
lake. Mr. Tupper was inspector, and if
he had been a paid official of that great
American combine he could not have
<liini' more to assist in the deetruction
nf the lishery of Lake Winnipeg than he
did. Every move that was made to check
the killing" of fish by the American fish
interests was countered by this inspector.
He had the ear nf his minister at Ottawa
nri account of his oilicial position and he
apparently had the ear of the officers in
tliH def>artment and e\ery move that was
niu<ie to check this .\merican fish interest
was countered by this man and by the in-
llucnces that surrounded him.

I .egret, Mr. Speaker, to have to say that
representation after representation was
made to the De,.artment of Marine and
Fisheries pointing out the destruction that (
was goiiiL' on. but it seemed impossible to
reacii the ear or obtain the sympathy of
the department. Settlers along thav lake
who had been induced to settle there large-
ly on account of the great fishing industry
that was promised had petitioned the gov-
ernment time after time praying for protec-
tion, but it seemed impossible to get the de-
partment to takp any action. That cannof be
verv much wondered Ft perhaps when we
realize that for year?, on both sides of the
.Speaker. .=at s/entlemen who were stockhold-
ers and sui'port<>r5 of the American fish in-
terests. We had up to a very few years ago
members on both sides of this House who
were stockholders or agent-s of the American
fish interests. Con.=equentIy. you can well

undrmtsna how impo».ll.;.. it »m (or th« Uuortor milllont of pounds of flih •nnuijUir
provincl.l MitWrt to «w th« r.r ..( th» .le.|t)ie Uk« would ioon^Ki ^*P''"?f _„'j?.j?*

iuro w»« brouaht to bflar on th<> pre»<>nt

'^•""' ■ ^, •'.^ . . t »f„- sure waft nrouirni lo dphf uii nif wicwt-h*

ohf^.n iuMire '^■''' ' '' O^"''" j"''"' "' .^"j I "^^^^ th« thon Inspector

1,1,1.11.1 Ki*lit.ri.v« Uiiiix w.!l "''l"»">»';'l;utourhe Tupper In hU place the (fovem-

alonc tho ,hor... of th»t lake an.l b.'nff in ] \;^Xi»vpoM^\\ man (rSm whom every

iiHitiL' thr <l.»tructiv.' mo h.),l4 that were ^j^-p Vv. ColcleuRh. an old resident of the
priutit.'.l by til.' Aiiicriciin U\U-Te*U und the ^^^^^ ^j Belkirk. a man who had been ennag-
(frtnl ili'ttructi.in thiit had taken phuc in p,, j„ ,|,p jj^^ buiineni himself and who
our tiiheri.s, I cunic to Ottawa mid took the 1^,,^^^ ,,y,.,y |,„y „„j pyi-ry inlet, on the
inuttT iipwith the then minister, Sir Charle* ||,,j,, |„„i fiyory setiler on tt» shores. When
Hilibert Tapper. I became intere.ited In the ^j^. 'poip)puph gjiinnied nfflre we expected
mutter up with the tlun minitt-r. Sir jj,|,( (|,p .Vmcriciin Fish Company would re-
Chiirles Hiliert Tupper. I bernnie in- pp|yp » check, b- ' we failed to reallw the
teroHted in lln' iiiattir liirL'clv bi'enii<i' ni p„,^p, of this sreat combine. Within less
the fiiet that tlie Aiiiiruuii tisti in- t},„„ two years this mon who tried to do
terest*. not miti-ille 1 with I'.mtroUiiiii "or (,jg duty i,y the country and by the settlers
li^liirie« and t ikinu' lUli mit <A our was practicnlly forced ciut of office. Every
lake to the extent of millions of pounds recommenilation he made to the department
illiL-allv, w.n- eiiileavi.urin.' to erush at Ottawa in the way of restrictinB the
out of e\iatence the two ^tiiiiill Ciiineli;!!! Ariicricin ri-=liinL' int«r.*H from killini: the
eompanie* tliat wer.- tli.-n operatinii on ll*!!. wnn either ignored or side tracked so
the lake. This was their modus eperandi: that he fail.'d entirely to muke any im-
there was a .lutv u( a quarter cnl a pound provement in the conditions. Mr. Colcleugh
.in all lisli imports, I into tlie I'liitfJ State.H

fruiii Canada, but a olaii-^' in the V nited
Stat' s I'uitunis Aet provided tliat any tish
taken in Canada in mis owii,-.i Ijy Ameri-
can eiti/.c'iis would bi' admitt''! into the
Unit. (I States free. Tlie li.iuili Ki.-li I'ack-
iiiK Company of Chicago, that L'roat octopus
which lii.-itrnrd its te itacies un^every tish
produciin; sheet of water in Canada, re-
ceived tlie advaiita-.'e of tlii.s provision of
tlie Tniti'd Stall's enstonis law a-" i! owiii'd
the nets mid jilant uf th.' Kobinsm t'om-
pany of that time and when the iisli of
the two Canadian compiinies got to the
biirder line it was nut with the duty
and handicapptd to tliat e.xtent in the
CliicaL.'o mark. t. In this way til.' An li-
eans w.r.' ulile t.i .lictate price* ami
tiTiiis til the Canadians Tli.' r.'Siilt was
that ill If*'.' tley .succeeded, with their
control of tlii' Cliicau'o market in crusliini;
the two Canadian companies out of ex st-
ence. In that year the Selkirk Fish Co n-
panv and the Rei.l and Tait Company so d
their business to the Booth Fish Paekii e
Company, or as it was called in this coun-
try the Dominion Fish Company, but it
was Canadian in name only, the stock he-
inff almost exclusively owned by the Rooth
Fish I'acUiri',' Company of Chicauo. Since
that time tlie Booth Fish Packinc Com-
pany of Chicairo have practical v controlled
the fishini.' in Lake Winnipeu, Rieht under
the eves of the officers of the trovernment
they have taken from 1.2i1f> to 1.500 tons of
fish annually out of this lake, althousrh it
was pointed out in 1810 that if they were
allowed to cntinne tnkiticr out two an.l a

was not only a prominent citizen but he
was a prominent Liberal; he had repre-

. nteil a Manitoba constituency in the local
li'.'islature for many years and the settlers
.iloriL' the lake had creat hopes that he
woiiM see justice done to them. Now. In
nrdi-r to prove that Mr. Colcleush was true
t<i the pcMpIe and true to bis trust, and
that he saw eye to eye with Mr. Wilmot,
who realized that these erent American
tish interests were destrovins; Lake Winnt-
peu, I shall read some stronsr representa-
tions t.i this ffovernment contained In a re-
j.ort of Mr. Colcleush made on .January 15,
l!>o<»

."Selkiik. .Innuary i:>. IMO.
fToii. Sir Louis Dnvles. K.CM.O..

Minister of Marine mid Fisherii-s.
Sir,— I havo the honour to report as folloirs
on the fislierids iif Manitoba, for the year 1899,
and til enilose h'Tewith statistical retuM's for
the >aiiie [leriod.
[ This season iii the matter of catch anil all
[ other respects, may be said to have Ix'eii all
1 iweraue one, some lakes sUowiuK an iiu lease
■ in oiitpat, and others a proportinnate de-
crease.

• • • •

The ti«h companies continue to ninvo their
plants northward, and this year their opera-
tions were carried on within a short distance
of the noitlurii shores of the lake, and I un-
ilirstand tliey (uiiteinplate another mnve to
Norway House ami I'layerwn I'oiiit on th«
northern coast. To my miud this is prima
facie evidence of the depletion of these waters,
I'ully 90 per cent of the catch of all our lake.i
Roes to the United States and tinds a market
there at Rooil prices. La-t spring I had a
wholesale price list from the Detroit Fish

V

I

AiwcMtioa, vliicb I km told, ia on* of tb«
tonUelM of th« irrat Am«rlc>ii octopui, tho
Ath combino, and tbii Imt aaotod oar whit*-
Aih at S cmU par pound wnolaaala, and our
•turgaon at from ( to it cant*, wbila Una
droaaad treat takan from aaatarn watart waa
ualy qaotad at H cast*.

Now, I want to give you the r i>drt« of
two of hit officer* on Uiu lakvs:

I. Oflear Macnaaion of Arnaa, on tha wa«t-
am ahora of Lm» Winnipaf, raporta a aM:r»tii«
In thocalch <>f a«b in hia diHtrict, aa eouiparMl
with laat laaaon, and aajs that wintar Aabini
waa a failarr. He rvporta eloaa aaaaona and
otbar raaalatiooa wall obaarTad in bit dia-
triot and oloaaa bia raport a« followt;: In
mr opinion tba lalie will anraljr ba daplatad
of flab in a faw yaara if tba ■ompaniaa ara al-
lowad to Bib aa at preaant.'

Antjiw McKay, oii« of the oldest men
on Lak>! \Viniiii>t'L'. a niuri wlio wa* in the
I'mpluy uf th>! lilt' ir.jvrrniniMit (or niuny
yeara us Indian u-'iiit iit lloretra river,
niakfs tlii!« ri|>'irt:

a. Angua McKay, E»q., of Boran'a rirar, lata
Indian agant at tba point, baa reaidad tbara
tor liver twi'ntv yenr*. and hiii nlwiiyt t.ikiMi a
lively intaraat in all niattara pertaining to tba
welfare of tba oommunitv, and now writea
atating that the lalce in lioiiiK rapidly dppUt.d
of both whiteflab and sturgeon, and urges tha
goveruinent tn pay hrml to it before it ia too
lata. I niay add "that this opinion i» shared
by all diaintermted parties who have given
thia matter any cousidaration.

Mr Cololouyli al^'o makes the followitii,'
report to the deputy minister, which with
your permirtition 1 will not read, but hand
in, as I do not wi.<h to take up the time of
the House. After a lengthy report he says:

In conclusiou permit me to say that I have
given the matter of our fisheries ronMiderable
itudy, and consulted hundreds of settlers, and

Cple who have no interests, other than tba
t interests of the province to serve, and all
ara of opinion that lake Winnipeg is being
rapidly depleted of both whitefish and stur-
geon and tnat even one more season's fishing
fuch as last year, and a few preceding years,
will be disastrous.

In vprifiintion of thii let mo state 'hat tl,!-
enly wbitaflsh now left in the lake are within
from -•' til -'• miU'- of tin- most noitlipilv
parts. Last season over twelve hundred tons
were taken under commercial licenses by tho
Dominion Fidb Coinpony, most of which were
caught within 23 miles of the outlet of the
lake. Then it must be borne in mind that all
Bib which pass ever Sea Falls never return.
The first mentioned fishing was done in the
south portion of the lake near to the mouth
of Red river, where whitefi?h were very pier 'i-
ful, then tbay moved gradually northward to
Swampy island. When these grounds wer<>
Bshed out, ther then moved to Reindeer island
where tliey fisned so lonjj as it was profitable,
and then shifted to Qenrge's island, and later
to Horse island, the most northerly island in
tha lake and all commercial fishing was car-
ried on last season between this island and
the north shore of tba lake.

At tkls ■omant gaaga of man ara angagad
buildlBf ie« hoaaaa and making otbar aitaa-
aiva prvpn rations on the northern •bore* of the
take ia tba vicinity of Warren's landing, and
l'la.vi(ri»ii liik», ptriiHriitiiry '» o|M>ration*
tbara tbia wintar and next summar, and aa I
Mid bafora, if fishing is permitted for anotbar
year on laeb a seafa, it will prova a aarioaa
matter to tba paopU of tbii provtnea.

These reports prove conclusivi'ly that Mr.
ColeleuL'h saw eye to eye with Mr. Wllmot,
iitiij did all that any man could do to tftva
the tisheries u( Lake Winnipeg, but the u(-
lieials of the ilepartnielit and I fear the
minister himself l''nt a deaf ear to hit re*
porta and reciinimendations; and after
stru^i,''lin;< (or two year* with the depart-
rni'iit to si-cure justice (or the settli-rs of
Lake Winnipeg, he gave up the flght in
di.'ti.'ust. and resigned. The poslMon waa
then tiUi'd )>y a man taken out of a hard-
wan- store ill the town of Selkirk, a man
who knew no mure about fish than the aver-
aiii' nii'mlitT of this House know* about
watelimukin^' I have no hesitation in say-
ini; that it was iin the recommcndatinn o(
the head of the hsh combine in Selkirk,
the president of the Dominion Kiah (."om-
|iany. Captain William Kobertion, that
.Mr Youiii; wu.s appointed to that position.
While a very estimable man, Mr. Younir
i at tliat tinii- waa thoroughly ignorant of
till- tisheries. It is a very grave question
wln'tliiT 111- kni'w a whiti'llsh (rum a tiillibee,
or a tulliliiM' from a pieki rel ; but he was
just the kind o( a man who suited the
LTcat American tlsh interest. .\» he knew
nothing about the fisheries, he could not
.see where these great companies were des-
troying the fisheries of Lake Winnipeg.
Coming in right on the heel« o( Mr. Col-
eleiich, a man who had years o( experi-
ence in the fisherie.si, and who had resided
at the headcpiartiTs o( the fisheries at Sel-
kirk, ever sinoe they were started. Mr.
Young made a report, and I wish to nuote
; passage of it to give you an idea of the
position he took in this matter. His re-
port to the nonunion Commission o( Fish-
eries, Ottawa, is dated Selkirk, March 18,
Ifl02, and in it he says:

Aa waa foreshadowed in tho preliminary
statement published in last year's report, tha
returns show an increase in the iiiinntity of
fish caught and exported over the year IWH).

Whitefish h?-. been very plentiful, so much
so that some of tt.e companies got all the fish
reqnirad in about six weeks or two months
fishing. 1 1 m pleased to report a yield of
1,364,000 pounds over the preceding year's,
which goes to show that wa have still an abun-
dance of whiteti'ili ill nur waters at any rat«;
1 rill sav -o with regard to the waters of Lake
Winnipeg.

1 just want to point out how easily a
man may be misled. I do not believe that
Mr. Young realized, when he made that re-
port, how misleading it would be to the de-
iiurtiiioMt, He states that there is abund-

ance of iish in the lake in the very season
when tlie companies had nearly doubled
their plants, doubled the number of boats
in use, more than doubled the number of
men employed, and consequently more tJian
doubled the power to kill the fish and chase
them into the deep waters. These things
account for the apparent abundance of fish,
and Mr. Young does not take them into
account in making his report. It merely
shows how well this large trust had forti-
fied itself. Reading the report of Mr. Young,
the average man would suppoee that Lake
Winnipeg fishery was in a flourishing
condition, that there was really no danger
of its waters being depleted, while the facts
prove that the lake to-day is depleted from
the south end to the north end. One proof
of this is to be found in the fact that in
the early days the average whitefish t"ken
out of Lake Winnipeg was from four and a
half to five pounds weight, whereas the
average taken last year by the American
iish companies was less than two pounds
weight. According to the law and the repu-
la*i(ins of the department, no fish of less
than two pounds weight is to be taken out
of Lake Winnipeg; but I make the state-
ment here that the average fish taken by
the American fi.shing companies last year
was "ot over two pounds, so that there must
have bfon a lnr;:e nuniuer under two pounds
to make that average. In the season of 1907
the catch was verv loor, and the inspector,
reporting under <lii ,> ui Selkirk, June 1,
1908. speaks of it ir. the following .an-
guapp:

It will be noto<i fh.it there is a large falling
oB in the production of wUitcfisli, while the
apparatus used was practically the Baine as
that used the previous year. In the first place
the season was a month later than usual in
opening up, it being about the Ist of July lie-
fore any fish were taken. Throughout the
pummer season the weather conditions were
very unfavourable for successful operations
of the fisheries, which created a Bhortage in
the catch. My observations lead me to Ijolieve
that the shortage was entirely due to the
above cause, and not from depletion of the
fishery. I have no doubt but that when the
weather conditions are favourable for success-
ful operations the fishery will reileem itself.

That report coming from the Inspector of
Fisheries in the face of the fact that the
average size of the fish had fallen from 4J
and 5j to 2 pounds, is conclusive evidence
that the officials of the Fisheries Depart-
ment have not been as zealous as they
mi'.'ht have been in the protection of this
groat fishery, and not willing to admit that
the lake is depleted greatly. A few
years ago, when wo who took an interest
in this question and were trying to con-
vince the Department of Fisheries from
time to time that this lake was being de-
pleted, and made statements to that effect
to any of the officials in charge, we were met
almost invariably with the rei^ly that we

were endeavouring to kill a great industry.
The idea that this fishery belonged to Uie
people of Canada and ought to be protected
for our own settlers and our own people
never seemed to enter the minds of these
officials. Their whole aim seemed to be to
do everything possible to encourage these
great commercial companies to export our
fish to the American market. The idea
never seemed to suggest itself to them that
this fishery ought to be protected and kept
for the people of our western country.

I want to be as brief as possible, but I
desire tj put this matter on record in such
a manner that the minister and this House
will understand so; lething about the condi-
tions which have prevailed on Lake Winni-
pes during the last fifteen cr eighteen
years; and to do so, it will be necessary for
me to give a short resume of the operations
of these commercial interests since their es-
tablishment. As I have said this lake was
depicted right ur.dor liie eyes of the depart-
mental officer?, .^ny one. having as much
experience as I have had on this question,
would a' iiost think that these men had been
hypnotized by these crcat interests and
were consequently unable to realize what
was actually taking place. In 1881, Messrs.
Reid and Clark, two fishermen from Col-
liiigwood, started to fish in the extreme
southern part of the lake, right opposite
Big island. At that time that part of the
lake abounde<l in fish. Its waters were
teemiiiL' with magnificent specimens cf
whitelish, by long odds the best ever taken
irom any waters on tliis continent. Right
alongside where thev were fishing was a
settlement of some 3.000 Icelanders that
sealed there early in the seventites. These
Iclanders expected that they would be
allowed to carry on a great industry and
reap the reward which would have been
theirs had these commercial interests not
been allowed to come in and practically
steal what really belonged to our own
people. This great settlemeiit had no diflR-
eulty up to 18'H) in ohtaininL' all the iish
they required in the southtern part of the
lake, not only for their own use but for the
Manitoba market, which was not then very
laree. In 1882. Reid and Clark moved their
plant a little farther north to Bull Head,
still in the south end, and caught an abun-
dance of fish there. In 1885 they put on the
first steam tuc that was ever used in these
waters and put up 150 tons of fish. This
wat the commencement of the export trade
of whitefish from Manitoba to the United
States. Soon the wealth of this lake be-
came known and in 1886 the Manitoba Fish
Company— Canadian in name only — 96 per
cent of its stock beine held by Americans —
began ojierations on Lake Winnipeg and
built a large plant at Swampy island. Rein-
deer island, and the Little Saskatchewan. In
1887, the Booth Fishing Packing Company of

Chicago, that (freat vampire which has
sucked the heart's blood out of our fishery,
came into oparation under the name of Wm.
Robinson. This gave thj lake over entirely
to these American interests, but in 1889 the
Selkirk Fish Company, a purely Canadian
company, started operations and estab-
lished their plant in the north end of the
lake at what is called Selkirk or Horse
island. In 1892 Reid & Clark started oper-
ations al«o on Horse island. In 1894 we
find that all these other companies which
had been fishing in the south end of the
lake, off Swampy island and Reindeer,
had depleted these waters and moved to
the north end and were fishing off Horse
island. In a few years they took from
that sheet of water surrounding Horse
island and Big Saskatchewan from 1,600
to 1,800 tons of whitefish annually, 90
per cent of whioJi were exported to Am-
erican markef«. In 1896 the Booth Packing
Company of Chicago secured absolute con-
trol of the lake and have controlled it ever
since. There is one point I want to bring
to the attention of the minister, and that is
that, under the laws of Canada, this great
..merican combine had no status in our
waters. They had no right to fish in Cana-
dian waters, but they succeeded in evading
the laws by forming what thoy called the
Dominion Fi.sh Company. Everv official,
however, in the Marine Department, as well
- the inspector at Selkirk, knew that the
Uootli Fish Packing Company of Chicago
were the real owners of the plant at Lake
\yinnipeg. In face of the law which states
distinctly that every company or individual,
before it can sponre a commercial license to j
iish in Lake Winnipeg, must be composed !
of British subjects and be the actual j
ownor* of tlie plant, these men were en-
aliled throuuh their acrents. to tnke the
oath and spcure a license which made it
possilile for them to destroy the t'reatest
inland fishery this country had. or ever
will have. Yoni would suppose. Mr. Speak-
er, that this fact would have caused an
inve.stisration by the Fishery Department
yi fir? nso. There i*" no nuestion but that
the Commissioner of Fi.sheries knew it
a? well as I did, because the attention of
the department was drawn to if from
time to time. But the department seems
to be powerless to interfere to y)ro-
tect our settlers against the encroachment
of American poachers. After depleting 1
Lake Winnipeg from the south end clean up j
to the north end, from Big island. Swampv
island. Reindeer iBland, and moving out to |
Horse island in the north, we find them |
at the northeast corner of Lake Winnipeg |
six or seven years ago, and they have been i
fishing there oontinually ever since, so that 1
that part of Lake Winnipe? is very near de- |
pletion at the present time. When I made I
the statement a moment aco that the fish 1

taken out of that part of Lake Winnipeg last
year did not average more than two poundi
weight, it will be clear to every man of this
House what the condition of the fishery is
at the present time in that lake must be.

When Mr. Wilmot made his report in
1900 he pointed out that certain parts of the
lake should be protected, and he furnished
a map to the department, which is contain-
ed in his report which I hold under my
hand, setting aside certain waters in which
he thought no commercial fishing should be
allowed. This 1 believe was observed fair-
ly well up to within a year or two ago.
But a year or two ago we find that commer-
cial fish interests, after the season had
closed on Lake Winnipeg, operating in
waters known as the Playgreen lake, and
that part of Lake Winnipeg— because it is
really a part of the lake— was pruected ac-
cording to the map that Mr. Wilmot had
furnished to the department. Now this
was not done unknown to the department,
it was thoroughly aware that the com-
panies were fishing in Playgreen lake,
their attention was drawn to the fact
but no effort was made to stop them. I
want to point out that during the last 15
.years, under both political regimes, the
Fishery Department has not given to the
settlers on Lake Winnipeg the protection
they had a right to expect for that great
industry, or an industry which was former-
ly great. When I state that Lake Winnipeg
is depleted to-day, it is a statement I have
made from time to time during the last
three or four years, not from hearsay, not
from what I have read in the newspai)ers,
but from what I know. I have been ac-
quainte<l with Lake Winnipeg on and off for
26 and 27 years, and 1 want to ?av that dur-
ing that time I have never' had the
value of a five cent piece invested in the
fisheries on that lake So my action here
to-night does not arise from any pecuniary
interest, but altoeethcr on account of the
public interest. Tlie fact remains that our
fisheries have been depleted by the com-
mercial companies.

But, Sir, it will he hard to get one of the
officials, either at Selkirk, where vou have
an inspector, or in the department here, to
admit that Lake Winnipeg is depleted.
They will toll you that Lake Winnipeg is
not depleted. We have the inspector stat-
ins in miT that he did not believe Lake
\Vinnipeg was depleted, and that in the face
of the fact that tliesi' commercial interests
have moved from station to station, year af-
ter year. diiritiL' the last 18 years, until
now they have established themselves on
the northeast corner of Lake Winnipeg. If
their former haunts have not been deplet-
ed, why have thev travelled 270 miles to get
fish elsewhere. They have gone this great
distance simply because they have taken
out all the fish in the lower part of the lake.

10

Surely it ia time now that something should
ho done, that some drastic measure should
bo taken to protect this fishery. It is high
time that this farce which has been going
on should end and that we know the truth
rpRardinc the lake. We have men at the
present time investigating that matter.
They compose the second commission that
lias been appointed ti> invpstgate the flsh-
irirM in Lake Winnipeg.

Just here let mo give the minister a
little history of the first commission, which
may save him perhaps from some little
decc- tion that may be practised through
the I. resent commission. In 1894 I made
a report to Sir Charles Hibbert Tapper that
American companies fishing in tho.so wat-
ers which were allowed to use 20,000
.var.ls of nets, that they were fishing
double that amount and were destroy-
ini: the lake fisheries, and that the
waters of the lake were being polluted
by dead fish. My statement was com-
batteil by the then inspector. Latouche
Tupper, who, as I said l)efor.., was in
hearty sympathy apparently with the
.American interests. Thi' coiiseiiuence was
that I induced Sir Charles Hibbert Tupper
to grant a commission, and he u[)pointed
;i lawyer in the town of Selkirk, and gave
him instructions to go to tlie lake during
itho winter time an^l take the evidence
I'roni all the fishermen that were engaged
ill this great tisli comiiany. This lawyer
went on and made a report, which I think
is in the department, in fact, 1 have seen
it within the last three or four weeks. It
is composed of a couple of liundr^'d sheets
of foolscap typewritten, fcvery man that
was e.\amined iiroved conclusively every
statement and every charge that had been
made regarding the manner in which the
American fish interests were operating on
that lake. Now, what liapiM'ned!- In tlie
spring of the year when tlnse poor men
came off the lake, men wlio liad l)een
robbed of a great industry, men who had
to work or starve, when they came in to
olitairi eniiiloyiiient froni the great Ameri-
can combine, thoy were met at t.iio door
of the oflici; by one of the men who had
a copy of the re|)ort of this commission in
his hand, and he would say to these men:
Mohn. vou swore so and so to Mr. Elliott;
you cannot work any longer for the lish
oniiiaiiy if you talk like that; you made
u mistake.' Consequently he look Uiat
man upstairs and made liiin swear just
the reverse. Ninety per cent of these men
were made to contradict tli( ir former evi-
dence. I pre.sume tliat reiiorl is in the de-
partment here, and was tile.l to eountract
the effect of the other report. I make this
statement here to-n' ht so that it may help
the minister to be on his guard in resrard
t 1 the inV''5tic;atio:i that ;- lu'.v goin'.' on in

Manitoba, and so that he may take mea-
sures to make it a fair and impartial one. I
was reading some of the evidAice that waa
taken at Winnipeg, and I want to draw
the miniater'a attention to it. I do not
know what power this commission has, but
I notice that every man who is examined
in Winnipeg, and I think also in Selkirk,
were all of them either owners of or stock-
holders in these fish companies, or men
directly interested in the large fishing
combine. There waa not one man who had
the interests of the public at heart, that is,
the interest of the settlers, who was ex-
amined in either of these cities, and this
is a very important fact. Some of tlie evi-
dence given by Mr. Guest I have under ray
hand; he is a fish dealer in Winnipeg, a
member of what is called the Northern
Fish Company. He states that the North-
ern Fish Company ia purely Canadian.
Well, I am sure the minister knows and
the department knows that a majority of
the stock of the Northern Fish Company
belongs to what is called the Ruck Eye Fish
Company, and the Buck Eye Company is
controlled by the Booth Fshing Pack-
ing Company of Chicago. Consequently,
the Booth Company controls the Northern
I'ish Company just as much as it does the
Dominion Fish Company on tliat lake. But
that man swears before this commission
that that company is purely a Canadian
company. Now, Sir, evidence of that kind
should be a warning to the minister, and
I hope his c. mmissioiiers who are taking
this evidence on Lake Manitoba will be in
a position to cross-examine these men. I
do not suppose that the paper gives all the
evidence, but I do not notice, in reading
the whiile nf t!ie evidence then given that
there has been any cross-e.xamining done.
Men have been allowed to come forward,
simply make their statements and walk out
of the" room. If that is the class of evidene ■
that the commission is going to secure I
want to say to the minister that ho will lie
very much disap|Kiinied with the result. I
believe that the iiresent Minister of Mar-iie
is anxious to do what he can to prot'.ot
the fisheries. I have that feeling and I
hope I will not be disappointed.

There are one or two other items that I
want to cull the minister's attention to.
First, 1 want to say a word as to the stur-
L-eon fishery. This, at one time, was a pro-
fitable industry on Lake Winnipeg, l)ut the
same interests, the American fish interests,
laine in and depleted that fishery. We
find tliat while tliev were able to set from
600,000 to 80n,000 pounds of sturgecm in a
year and were able to do it year after year
the best they could do last year was to se-
cure ITO.OtW pounds. This proves conclus-
ively that the tish is almost extinct on that
lake. This is a serious question for our

u

,

Indians upon that lake. We have a large
number of Indians along that lake and the
depletion of our fisheries, in addition to
being an outrage upon the people of those
great provinces of tlie west, is a great hard-
ship to the poor Indian who has to travel
miles and miles to get enough fish to feed
himself and his family. In the old days
an Indian could set his net any place along
the lake and get any fish he wanted. To-
day, he cannot do that. These waters are
depleted to such an extent that he cannot
put up the fish that he used to put up for
his winter's supply The sturgeon was a
very valuable (ish. We, in Manitoba, never
realized the value of this fish. The Ameri-
ciin.s came into our waters, however, and
they have made a great deal of money out
of sturgeon. The Indian or settler who
caught this sturgeon, received, as a rule,
75 cents or $1 at the most for a stureeon
weighing from 75 to 125 pounds. These
fish were taken to Chicago and sold from
9 to 14 cents a pound. The caviare that
was got from Iho product of these sturgeon
was a very valuable product in addition
Consequently, the Americans have reaped
a very great harvest out of our great in-
land waters. It does seem strange to me
that the Canadian government have been
almost powerless to protect our watc^rs from
the American fishermen. I could well
understand the difliculty along the interna-
tional waterways, but there should surely
be no difliculty in great lakes lik.' Lake
Winnipc:,', Lake Winiiipcgosis and Lake
Manitoba. They are in the heart of our
own country and we surely should be able
to kii'p the Americans from coming in and !
taking the fish from under our no,«e. We
have, during the last 15 or 18 years, '
been simply hewers of wood and drawers :
of water to tlie great American interests.
The settler who camn into that country in
the early day.s and who ought to be wealthy
io-day, as a result of the existence of these '
great lialierie.-, is struggling for a living
while these American trusts have been
allowed to make hundreds of thou.sands of
dollar.-* out of the fishing industry. !

I wuuM just like to say a word or two '
liere regarding the province of Saskatclie-
wan. We have no great lakes there, but we j
have a lot of small ons. These lakes are be- i
ing rapidly depleted. I know this is not the j
report that the minister gets. I have read !
the report.s that have come in from his in- '
specturs, but, 1 would refer the minister '
to the evidence given at Selkirk by one Mr. ,
■loliii Morrison. He swore that he had j
lished at Turtle lake, which is a small lake '
in Saskatchev an. atul that he had taken j
out ten carloads of whitefish last winter. ■
Hdw long do ynu think tliat lake can stand '
that class of Ijshiiig? The iiievitablii re- !
suit of eomiMPri'iu! lishinL- in these small
'akes is that they will b> depleted within |

a short time. I enter a plea to-night for the
settlers of that great province. Those people
who are going in there in thousands and, I
hope, by hundreds of thousands, wUl re-
quire all tlie fish that these small lakes will
yield. That is the fresh fish supply for
that province as Lake Winnipeg was to
Manitoba and her sister provinces. I think
we have a right to ask the government to
protect these fisheries and see to it that
the fish are kept not only for the resi-
dents but for the coming residents of tliese
great provinces. This is an industry which
gives employment to perhaps 5() or 60 men
during the winter time. They receive a
very small sum for the fish they take, just
enough to pay for their labour and nothing
for the fish. They get their wages and that
is all they get while the American Fish
Company get the fish. Our people who
want hsh in Manitoba to-uuy are paying
nearly double what they ought to pay for
fresh lisli. This is true of Winnipeg and
other towns throughout that province.
When I tell you that fresh fish in Winni-
peg commands the same price, or just
about the same price, as the same fish in
Chicago and other American cities you can
understand how great a hardship it is to
the people of Manitoba and Saskatchewan.

With regard to the Sturgeon question I
omitted to refer to Lac du Bonnet, a small
lake on the Winnipeg river. It is really an
e.xteiisioii of the Winnipeg river about 9
miles long and having an average width of
■2 or 3 miles. It is a great sturgeon breed-
ing ground. That ground has been pro-
tected and I notice by the report of your
ollicer-the one thing that I have noticed
from the rei)ort of any olhcial of the de-
[lartment regarding the fisheries of that
country that meets with my approval -was
a statement coiiiniending the policy of pro-
tecting that little lake Lac du Honmt,
pointing out that it was teomiiig with
sturgeon that it was a reservoir or brew-
ing ground and ought to be protected. I
know there is a very strong effort beiii,;
made -and I know the minister knows— to
secure a license to fish that lake I trust
that the minister will carry out the policy
that iio has inaugurated and not allow any
commercial companies or even any set-
tlers to fish tliat lake for export purposes.
I strongly urge the minister— and I believe
that wliat 1 say now will be very popular
in the province of Manitoba— to prohibit the
export of sturgeon from Canada. Stur-
i:con are very scarce and sliould not
be exported from Canaila. A sliort season
might \>v allowed duriii_'' which the set-
tlers living along the lake might be allowed
to take sturgeon for tlie home ni.-irket only.

\i\ important question arises in connec-
tion with tiie settlers living along the Red
river. There are along that river a large
numlier of old settlers. These m-"!! liave

12

lived there all their livet and have always
enjoyed the rifrht to take fish at any time
during the year, but under the present law
they are not allowed to take fl3h durijiK what
is called the close season. Very few fish
go up that river and all the fish the aettlers
take during the season would not amount
to as much as one of those great fish com-
panies would take out of Lake Winnipeg
in one day. 1 shall cite one case to illus-
trate the great hardship sometimes caused
by the enforcement of the law. In the
spring of 1897 an old woman, about 80
years of age, went down to the river to try
and get a fish. Many of these settlers, it
must be remembered, are very poor. This
old woman had a little scoop-net and was
fishine with it alone the shore when one of
the zealous inspectors of the department
came alon?, saw the old woman trying to
take fish during the close season, took the
net and broke it across his knee. The old
woman said: 'You micht as well take a
stone and knock my brains out as leave
me to starve.' That is a hard case, hut
there are many quite as bad. I wrote the
minister a letter upon this subject as fol-
lows:

January 28, 1909.
Hon. L. P. Brodeur,

Minister Marine and Fisheries,
Ottawa.

Honourable Sir,— I be raw your atten-

tion to what has provt ' t . ie a vpry great
hardship to many of the j.d settler.'! alnnR
the bank of the Rod river, that is, the en-
forcomout of a closed ^oason for the taking of
tish in the Ued river by the settlers who fish
only for their own ronsuniption. This has
proved to he, as I said alxive a great Hardship,
espeeially tt. many of the poorer families — this
applies especially to the spring of the year. 1
would tlierefore suggest and urge that you
eause the h>w. whirh re^trut'^ the settlers
along tne bank of this rivfi , ))etween the
Catholic mission, " or 8 mil<\.< north of the
town of Selkirk and the northern limits of the
city of Winnipeg, to Ije an'.uUed. — that all
settlers between these points be allowed to
fish at any season for home consumption only.
This change cannot have any very bad etfcvt
as all the fish taken by the settlers for this
purpose does not amount to as much as to
what one of these fishing companies would
take o«t of the lake nr at the mouth of the
Red river in one d.iy, — while on the other
ht Td, the change that will enable those poor
settlers to catch fish for their own table, as
they have been in the habit of doing for fifty
yeatS before this law was applied by your de-
partnieiit would piove a great blessing to
these pe<iple.

Trusting that yon will se your way clear to
meeting this request, I am.

Yours faithfuly.

I reM'ivcd a ro-^lv siL'iifd by Mr. VenninL".
one of the offlrials of flip department I do
not wish tu speak harshly of the officials
but I have alwav? felt that the officials of
the department did not txtend to the i>oor

settlers of that county the sympathy that
th«'V should. Mr. Venning says :

The minister directs me to ackDOwledgv the
receipt of your Utter of the 26tb ultimo, re-

S nesting that so far as that portion of U>«
ed river beween Catholic mission and the
north limits of the city of Winnipeg is con-
cerned, the fishery regulations be so arranged
as to allow the settlers at all tiroes of the
year to take fish for their own utie, and I
note your opinion that the amount taken
would be so small as to have no ill effect on
the permanence of the fishery.
• In reply I may say that the fishery regu-
lations are framed with a view to imposing
the least possible restrictions on the fishermen
compatible with the permanence of the fishery
and the experience of the department is to
make it very loath to countenance any fishing
whatever for a particular kind of fish during
the close season provided for its reproduction.
While the department would regret very
much to have to cause hardship to any of the
settlers it fails to see why it would not be
possible for such settlers to be able to provide
themselves with sufficient fish for their own
use under the ordinary domestic licvnse, the
fee on which is only $2, dnring the regular
fishing season.

This letter conies from one of the offiwais
of tliH department and shows how little
symiiathy they have with the hardships
tliat prevail along that river. These people
enjoyed the riirht to take these fish long
liefore we as Canadians had any right to
a foothold in that country, and it seems a
preat hardship that we should go in there
and allow our great corporations to kill fish
liv hundreds and millions of pounds and
ship th.m out of the country and at the
same time deny to those potjr people the
ri'-'li' t(i catch enouali tish to keep body
and sou! together. So I enter a plea with
the minister and ask him to see that this
privikce is pranted to these settlers from
this date on. It must he remembered that
these men do not sell the fish, what they
take are simply for their own use, and sure-
ly they should be allowed to catch enough
for their own consumption.

T!i«' question of fish culture is one of
creat imjiortance to the settlers along that
I.-ike and deserves careful attention. It is
•in industry requirinc very skilful manage-
ment but ' regret to say that the hatcher-
ies in M ''a have been conducted care-
lessly, tlessly and inefficiently. I
Iwlieve u._ ..nen the minister realizes what
his really taken place along the southern
end of the lake he will endeavour to repair
the f-'reat wronc that has been done to our
settlers. I believe that the depleted fish-
eries can be repaired to a great e.\tent
through the use of hatcheries properly man-
ned and managed, although little can be
aeeomplished with hatcheries conducted as
those in Manitoba now are. A hatchery
was built at Selkirk many years ago, un-
der the late t'overnment more as an ex-
periment than anything else. We have in

13

I

charge of that hatchery a man who knew
nothing about fish culture, who had driven
a dray in Selkirk (or 20 years. He was
taken from that position and put in charge
of the flsh hatchery, and yet the department
expects good results from a hatchery of
that kind, managed by a man who knows
practically nothing about fish culture.
What happened? Two years ago, although
the government had spent over $10,000 in
tryins to secure spawn In Lake Winnipeg
their efforts were abortive simply because
the man in charge did not know his busi-
ness, and did not understand the taking of
spawn. The hatcheries at Selkirk and at
Lake Winnipeg were closed. A consign-
ment of spawn was sent from Ontario to
kocp the hatchery going, but when it reach-
i\l Selkirk, through the ignorance of the
man in charge, the spawn was allowed to
.ipoil and the hatchery was again clused.
Even when it is successful as it was this
year, the management is imperfect. At Sel-
kirk, when the young fry are ready and
must CD into the water, the water is unfit
f,>r them.

The Red river is clear of ioc tlirt'i> weeks
before Lake Winnipeg; the temperature of
the river rises rapidly and the fry have to
be deposited, and when they are di-cliurgej
the water of Red river is extremely muddy.
It is safe to say that not ten per cent of the
tish from the hatchery ever live to reach
Lake Winnipeg. Everybody knows this, the
department knows it. To-night from my
place in this House I put in a plea that
the hatchery be removed to where it will
do ."Jome good. I sii.'gcst that it be pl.iceil
on Big island or some other point on the
south end of Lake Winnipeg, and if tluit
be done it will to some extent help t-i
remedy the great wrong perpetrated, and to
replenish the waters in the south end of the
lake. There is no question that if there was
a batclicry placed on Mig island or some-
where on the south end of the lake that
»-tthin the next four or five years we would
have abundance of fish there, for the .set-
tlers at least. Two or three years ago we
spent .$'J4,00<) in building a hatcliery at
Beirns river and although Mr. .Jackson, the
late member for the county promised the
settlirs at the .south end that the hatchery
would be built on Big islaml, the influence
of the LTeat fi.sh companies was too stronij
and they bad it locatecl on the north end
of the lake so as to help to produce fish to
keeji that .\nierican combine supplied.
What I set out to say was that that hatch-
ery lay idle all last year, because, throuiih
tlie buni-'ling of the men employed to look
after this delicate business of fish culture,
no spawn was .secured. Not one of these
men in charge of the hatcheries has lind
any experience. The inspector of hatcheries
at Selkirk is a very fine fellow himself, but
ho is a lumberman who attends to his lum-
ber business in Selkirk, and he knows no

more about fish culture than I do about
making a watch. That is the kind of men
that is placed in charge of the flsh culture
of the province of Manitoba, and is it any
wonder we have had such results? The
man in charge of the hatchery at Beren's
river was a friend of the late member, Mr.
Jackson, and he was taken off the farm
to be put in charge there. II we are to
succeed in replenishing that lake with fish,
if we are to get any value for the thousands
of dollars we have spent, it is absolutely
necessary that competent men should be
put in charge. I trust that the report of
the commission will be a comprehensive
one, and that it will enable the rain'ster
to judge of these matters himself and not
be dependent upon his officials. Now, Sir,
I have endeavoured to place this matter
as fairly as possible before the House.
There is no politics in it or there ought to
be none, but unfortunately at times politics
do get mixed up in it and politics have a
good deal to do with the destruction of our
lakes. I have tried to place the matter fair-
ly before the minister in the hope that I
may induce him to grapple with the ques-
tion and to remedy the evils that exist.
Our Manitoba fisheries are a great natural
resource of the province and they ouglit to
be well guarded. There are a large number
of citizens in my own constituency who de-
pend largely for a livelihood on the pursuit
of this industry, and the fall and winter
fishing on the lake is quite an important
enterprise. There is no danger to the fish-
eries from winter fishing because every time
the ne' is put into the water it is taken
■ lut again with the fish that are in it. but
in the case of the summer fishing miles
and miles of these nets are often torn away
and they go sailing through the lake killing
and destroying the fish us they pass along
and polluting the waters. I ask the minis-
ter to see that the commission which inves-
ti'.'ates this ijiiestioii will not be content
with taking the mere statements of certain
people, but that they will have power to
su()i)a?na witnesses and cross-examine them
so that a true knowledije of the conditions
on Lake Winnipeg may be obtained and an
aile'iuate remedy applied.

Niov, in cdiuliision, allow me to again
press upon the minister the absolu! ' neces-
sity of (>rectintr at oiue an up-to-date hatch-
ery 'Ml Biir islaiul. This end of the lake
has hen thorouirhly depleted of whitefi.sh
fi^r eciinniercial jmrposes. and as it is the
portion of the lake where the large lee-
lamlie settlement reside, it ought to be re-
plenislieil at the earli<'st possilile date.
That tlie lake has been depletivl is evi-
iloncecl from the fact that the companies
are to-day paying 3} cents per pound for
v.hitefish that they used to pay about one-
ilM.irter ef one cent jier jiound for. .\ great
wrong has been done to our settlers and to
our residents, not only of Manitoba and
ef all the Eastern provinces, where our

14

magnificent whiteflgh ought to come but
on account of the manipulation of our fish-
ery by American interests. Canadians have
to pay double or nearly so for their own
fish than they ought to. I therefore
strongly urge upon the .government the
wisdom of nil up-to-date system of hatch-
eries on the lake, especially in the south
end. placed under the management of ex-
perts in fish culture, and a thoroughly
t unadian policy, from this date, regarding
the companies that are iillowed to fish. As
far ns possible, the fishing ought to be hus-
biinded for our sotflers ; their fall and
winter flshinc oueht to bo preserved, and
every encouriieement ouirht to be given to
tlii.s kind of fisbinsj.

Tiiisd.'iy. May 18. I!xm.

Mr. O, H. BRADBURY (Selkirk). Mr.
Speaki r, Ik fore the House goes into Sup-
ply. I wish to call the attention of the
hen. Minister of Mnrine and Fisheries (Mr.
Brodeur) to an editorial in one of the Win-
pipeu- jiapers on the statement he made in
the House in reply to some remarks I had
the lionour to make in this House on the
I-'itli i.f the month. 1 stated at that time
that f.ake Winnipeg was being dejileted.
The niini.iter, in reply, said that th. re-
j.ort.s sliowe.l fhnt Lake Wiiiiiipe?: was not
beint' depleted. I am going to (luute just
a f"w s.ntt'nces from the Winnipeg •Trib-
une ' of the !4th instant. Thifi is u pajier
that has been in touch with this question
durin:.' tlie !a?t lifteeii or -ix:een vears ani
is fhdroiiL'hly competent to speak upon tlie
subjeet : i

DEPLETION OF FISHEKIE.S.
Hon. Mr. Br^^deur «ni<l the rejiorts showed
that there was no depletion of the fisheries
of Manitoba.

At the moment when he spoke those ish

words, witnesses were giving evidence Mioio
his own fisheries commission at Gimle, the
headquarters for many of the fishermen on
the lake. The report says:—

The majoritv were in favour of the lake
being closed for whitefish in the southern
portion until the fish increased sufficiently in
numbers to make it profitable and that the
closed season for domestic fishing licenses
should commence on August 15 for summer
fishing.

A few years ago in the southern portion of
the lake, the waters fairly teemed with white-
fish; fishery stations were in nr^ration, and
remained in operation until thr devastation
was almost complete. Then they were closed.
And yet the Minister of Fisheries stands up
in parliament and says:

The reports showed' that there was no de-
pletion of the fisheries of Manitoba.

Take further testimony given before the
fishery commission yesterday:

Rev. J. P. Solmundson, secretary of the
flsiierman s union, wac the last speaker. He
claimed that United States capital was the
direct causa of the depletion of the whitefish

in Lake WinnipH- and while he was in favour
of fishermen being allowed longer neta and
( iuiiHlian-hiiniired firms doing businens in the
northern part of the lake where whiteHsh
were itill qaite plentifal. he objected ttronglv

iLn,f„V'°tfc """fl' 1'"*S»" Canadian namei
•eonring the product for the American
market.

The fact ii that the American capitalists
have m the majority of instances, been in
league with friends of the government. The
old, rotten system of placing the country's
resources at the disposal of friends, is at the
Dottom of the depletion of Lake Winnipeg
and other western inland waters. Friends,
aa they are called of the government have
1 Jt "e™«M0UB rake-o« in this business,
and the protests of the whole people have been
iguored.

Tliis is from the 'Tribune' of May 14 the
I niurning after I had the honour of address-
mi: this Hdiise. Now, for the purpose of
convinciii!.'. if posible, the hon. minister
that Lake WiiinipeL' is in a depleted condi-
tion, I wisli til read from another important
report, made by u man who is entirely im-
partial, taken from the report of the Royal
Northwest Mounted Pidiee for 1907. This
is an extraet from the report of Inspector
E. A. Pelletier. of a patrol from Reeina to
Churchill and return, in the winter of
l!HJ6-7. It is as follows:

Ueginn. March 11, 1907.
With regard to fishing companies;—
T take the liberty of suggesting that bv
what I heard and what I believe some restric-
tions shduld bo made in the extent of their
operations.

Th.' fish e.iught. I hear, is mostly all ex-
ported to the United States market, and it
is foreseen that sonr there will be hardly
fish emnigb left to feed the natives and their
dogs. If some low could be passed to forbid
the exportation of fish caught in the Kee-
watin district, outside of Canada, it would
benefit the .-ountry a great deal, for at this
rate the fish will soon become extinct or
j practically so. Something like it is in Lake
i Superior. Lake of Woods, and is getting ia
I regard to Lake Winnipeg, which is getting
I fished out.

i Fishing companies are operating as far as
; Lake Tipiwesh. The new railway coming in
from the Pass will come through a country
of g, 1(1 fishing lakes.

Fisiiir, companies find it even profitable to
haul fish some 100 or 150 miles from railway
transportation with horses. One can easily
iinagiiie if a railway ever comes through to
Fort Churchill to what extent the country will
he exploited by these fishing companies, and as
these lakes are of comparatively small sise it
tt_ill take very few years indeed to drain them
of all their fish, and then the natives will be
left starving if a poor year of fish comes. As
It IS now, they can always fall back on fish
after everything else fails.

Even then this country is growing now at
such a rate that if no restrictions on the ex-
port of fish are made at an early date there
will be no fish left for our own consumption.
Evidence of this kind, coming from a man

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who is entirely impartial, who has no otlier
interest to serve than the public interest,
ought to impress the minister that there is
something wrong. The hon. gentleman
seemed to take exception to the statement
I miide regarding- the laxity of the officials
of his department.

Mr. 8I'P:AKER. The hon. gentleman can-
not refer to a previous debate.

Mr. BRADBURY. 1 am very sorry I can-
not. However, there seems to be some dif-
ference between the hon. minister and my-
self regarding the position these gentlemen
occupy. Either the officials of the department
have been derelict in their duties regarding
the fisheries of Luke Winnipeg or the min-
ister of the department has counteracted
their reeonwnencliitions. If the olliciala have
been honest, and have notified the govern-
ment from time to time of the fact-' then
the covernment tiiiist take the full fi spon-
sibility for the destruction nf these (.Teat
fisheries. There is no question that Lake
Winnipeg is in u depleted condition to-day.
The hon. minister quoted from the report
of one of his olliciuls. who, as I pointed out,
has from time to time made reports which
were contrailictory and therefore not reli-
able. However, I am going to read for the
minister's information an extract from the
report of 1906 of the inspector at Selkirk,
the gentleman whom the hon. minister
quoted the other night.

Some hon. MEMBERS. Order.

Mr. BRADBURY. I do not like to irri-
tate the hon. fjentleman. but I wish to place
this report on record, in the hope that it
may open the eyes of the hon. minister to
the fact that reiwrts made by the ins[)eetor
at Selkirk are not altogether reliable. In
this report for 1906, the inspector states :

I would JQst say in conclusion, that the year
1901 has Ijeen, ou the whole, a very success-
ful one, considering that the weather througli-
out th« year, was very unfavourable, for the
carrying on of fishing operations. In some
cases nets were set from four days to a week
without being lifted and fish taken therefrom.
This of cour.se hi\d a very b.id effect on the
fishing as a good many of the fish deterior-
ated before the nets could he lifted and in
• (iii^pqupiire were unfit (or the market. It
is a hard proposition to overcome this loss as

long af gill n«tt are used for the capturing
uf tish in our waterH.

I'i«h of all kinds are very plentiful except
iturceon and whitefiib, both thea* valuable
fish Keeni to be getting scarcer every year.
The setting anart as a breeding ground the
waters of the Winnipeg river was a move in
the right direction, and will be u benefit to
the fiHheries of our province as long as it it

Wept closed to commercial fishing. The waters
<>f the Winnipeg river are teeming with
young sturgeon.

The common whitefish in our waters seem
to be getting scarcer e\ery veur at any rate
they are harder to locate during the fishinu
season than they wore a few years ago.

I wish to draw the attention of the min-
ister and employee to the fact that his
own inspector as lute as 1906 pointed 1
out that Lake Winnipeg was in a de- '<
pleted condition and that the fish were
getting scarcer every year. 1 do not in-
tend to take up the time of the House fur-
ther than to say that I hope the minister
will be cuided by the reports which I have
tried to lay before him. honestly and fairly,
without any political bias, and "will see that
they are looked into by the Fish Commis-
sion. I fear very mucfi that that commis-
sion is not going to accomplish the work
for which it was appointed, because I have
noticed in the refiorts of the papers that
one of the nian.iL'ors of the fish companies
aiiainst which I have been protesting, is fol-
lowing that Commission up from place to
place giving his evidence at different places
and no doubt influencing the men who come
li' fore the Commission. There is no iloulpt
that the evidence given before that commis-
sion is being secured to a very large extent
by this man. All I ask is that the (.eople
have a fair chance to put their case before
that commission. As I pointed out to the
minister this morning in private conversa-
tion, unh'ss the witness.s are subpcenaed
by the commission, the evidence will not be
properly secured from the standpoint of the
people. The companies will take good care
to have their evidence placed before the
commission, but there is no one looking
after the interests of the people, and con-
sequently I am afraid that if the commis-
sion do not sulipcena witnesses and cross-
examine tliem direct, the inquiry will not
be a fair one. and will not accomplish the
result which it was designed to accomplish.

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