University of California • Berkeley SAMUEL TRASK DANA The Development of Forestry A Composite of Selections from Separate Interviews Conducted by Amelia R. Fry of the Regional Oral History Office, The Bancroft Library, University of California Berkeley and Elwood R. Maunder The Forest Society, Yale University New Haven, Conn. In Preparation for The Edited Version Published as "The Dana Years" in American Forests, Volume 72, Numbers 11 and 12, November and December, 1966 Berkeley 1965 All uses of this manuscript are covered by an agreement between the Regents of the University of California and Samuel Trask Dana, dated 15 May 1966. The manuscript is thereby made available for research purposes. All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the Bancroft Library of the University of California at Berkeley. No part of the manuscript may be quoted for publication without the written permission of the Director of The Bancroft Library of the University of California at Berkeley • - DANA/MAUNDERfFRY f\ , £L , ' 7L Page 1 ^ MAUNDER: We usually conduct these oral history interviews in • very informal way, sitting around and just chatting. I like to begin all these, Dean, by getting a bit of personal history—that is, your place of birth, some thing of your early life, your schooling, your family. DANA: I was born in Portland, Maine back in 1883. All of my schooling until I wnet to college was in Portland. I went to Bowdoin College in Brunswick, where two older brothers had been, and graduated from there in 1904. MAUNDER: What was your course of study at Bowdoin? DANA: My study at Bowdoin was what I suppose you'd call just a plain liberal arts program. I was there at the time the elective system that President Eliot of Harvard was so enthusiastic about was in vogue. So I think there were practically no requirements outside of English and possibly Latin. I actually emphasized the physical sciences more than any other one thing. I think I took more chemistry than any other subject. I was also feery mucy interested in economics, in which I won a prise. Curiously enough I didn't take a single course in history, a subject in which I've been greatly interested ever since. MAUNDER: What was your father's business or occupation? DANA: My father got into the Civil War as a young man, just about the time he was finishing high school, so that he never had any college education. The great bulk of his work was £±x* first as a clerk in the Mifcux Maine Central Railroad, and then as the treasurer of the Portland and Ogdens- burg Railroad. My mother was a Portland woman who died relatively early. She came from a family of lawyers. \ • i. •*••• . .• There was nothing in my background to indicate I ought to be a forester. My father was very anxious I should be a lawyer, but for some reason I didn't like the in idea at all. X (Since then I've decided I would have liked law, and I think I might not have been to bad at it.) 0 airf I»no6 a -:•-<<>•• i J:»MO s»n '•( i . I>W,>£ r, aH.'W . .qs,;. I jc .• . . t.: : :. . HJUU d^nu: 'Jit 'io» Ii. . . ':* .*>: i ;..•..•: OJ 3d : >il,\ 0( . 3i.. .- •»•» <*ii LfbfiT> . . . . .... . . .••;.. ,., . . . »"j j •>( . c >; . .' : , . • rvfi DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 2 I wanted to be a doctor. In those days I was a puny young man, and my father said I just didn't have the stamina to be a doctor; It was too hard a life. So then he suggested, "How about engineering? Electrical engineering is coming along." So after graduating from Bowdoin I wnet to Massachusetts Tech for about three days and decided I didn't like engineering. MAUNDER: What interested you in forestry? DANA: It was primarily that I liked the outdoors. I was interested in mature and was a bird watcher even in those early days. But it was actually a matter of elimination. I couldn't find anything else I did like. The final decision was influenced by *kK a classmate of one of my borthers at Bowdoin, an older man hwom I knew fairly well. He had studied forestry at Yale and was on the faculty there at the time/ I was trying to make up my mind. I wrote to him and asked him what he thought of his profession. The reply was, "A wonderful profession if you like it; if you don't you won't last very long." Then I wnet into the backwoods of Maine for a winter to think things over. In sptte of nearly feeezing to death, getting up two or three hours before sunrise, and sitting around doing nothing I decided I liked forestry. MAUNDER: You were with a lumbering operation? DANA: Yes. A lumbering operation of the Great Northern Paper Company. i MAUNDER: How did you happen to get the job? - DANA: We had some connection with an officer in the company who made the ar- ; rangements. It wasn't a job, actually; I just want up as an observer. I was free to come and go as I wanted. MAUNDER: Did you do anything in the way of work while you were ftky there? DANA: No. I just watched. MAUNDER: Can you tell us something of conditions in the camp? '-• •«- E -t ; .7-,'P ' r -. •#. . 'rtllo- I :•> ' ;.-''8 VMM Mi/od W95 A nJ . -lb »» nnA^ixM &<4 r_ 4 ' akfanMk « < io 3tx> JJ o^ft1 02 isqqib • b»e • • ,'.n^.tt. a aqrib M f the course work at Yale at that time? DANA: The scope of forestry at that time was very much narrower than it is today. There are lots of things that we regard now as part of forestry that we never heard mentioned--ecnomics, for instance. W lilife and range manage ment never entered the picture at all. The whole prSgram was mapped out; ghere was no choice of electives at all; you took what the faculty decided you needed to be a forester and that was all. There were realtively few courses but a good many outdide lectures. We'd have somebody come in and hive use1 a few lectures Kl Hi - - ,jl*-*n-r- . . ' i»Jf>i Bfc n' 7 *-f.-B eoioi ror.sJ si ;j lo xifat aaujt c^ i . ::w bf>3 MJJL» ;;;;!< Jrfiri . V 1 "/*• J O'j JjC. '!*i" Of ' "Bf! fi f«J B*V» . . • • • '*« r-, ... - . ' " I •t; • '. . : 1 .• / ; ? ' / 9i1T i DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 5 on entomology, pathology, road building. The only *±M thing I can remember about road building is you should lay out the road uxxk so that as you approach the top of a hill you have a parabola so the horse can't see over the tope of the hill. If he does he will think he's there and will stop. I don't remember that Pinchot gave us any lectures. Old William Henry Brewer did. He was an extraordinarly individual, one of the old- time naturalists who knew everything and an extremely interesting talker. MAUNDER: How much practical training was included in wkat your course at Yale? DANA: Oh, we had a fair amount of field work around New Haven which was da- voted primarily to tree tout identifaction and tree planting with a little silviculture mixed in. Then we had a summer camp on the Pinchot estate at Milford, Pennsylvania, and in the senior year we spent three months in the Missouri Ozarks. In general I would say that the field work was less than the boys get now. MAUNDER: Which of your teachers had the most profund influence on you? DANA: Henry Graves did, I'm quite sure. He had not only a driving personality but a sparkling one. -H«» h«H t-ha n»am •najniin^ in <»m pam «J*T J '"«'"• **~- dominated He *••*«*•* M the school. I think x* Touney probably was next. The rest of the crowd were all young fellows, who, if they had been ten years olders, would have made a lot more impresssion. Chapman, for example, was a relatively young teacher who was just beginning to learn how to teach his subject, and we were the victims. MAUNDER: What were the characteristics of Henry graves that stand out most vividly in you mind? DANA: I would say that the outstanding thing about him was his pepe". He was just on the qui vive all the time. You felt he was a bundle of energy. ; . rfl .p. "- : . : ti.l : JUri r> Ho t Mi il .11 *ri »ri^ i'-> .--q H j I ! • . SWt,i.l.i' . • [ -.... • . - , - I . . . : . • ' DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 6 going full tilt. That impression was incresdd by his eyes, which always snapped at you. He's «k±X about the only man whose eyes I remember in that way. MIUNDBR: Did the boys have any nicknames for him? DANA: No. Occasionally he was know as "Thick Graves," but not very oftefa. There was a botanist on the faculty who was very tall and thin whom we K sometimes called "Thin Graves." But we always addressed the Director as Professor Graves, and Tourney was always professor Tourney. Tourney was very dignified, more so than Graves, although Graves could put on plenty when he needed it. MAUNDER: Would you say that Pinchot had any very strong, cubtle influence on the school? DANA: On the school but Hftjtp not on the students. The students didn't know him at all. MAUNDER: What influence did he have on the school? DANA: He was a very close personal friend of Graves and kept in close touch with him, so that she school developed its program taking account of his pfcux point of view, particularly with respect to training men to go into the Fores t Service. MAUNDER: What were the students of your calss like, their general background? DANA: They came mostly from the middle income «»*»*:» class. I don;t remember any rich boys or any particularly poor ones. You had to have some raoeey to go to Yale. They came partly from professional parents and partly from businessmen. I'd say in general they were just a typical group of middle-class American folks. MAUNDER: What motivated most of them, • in your estimation, to go into forestry? DANA: I think most of them went in for about the same reason that I did, They were interested in the outdoors, and of tern they were attracted by the op portunity for public service, which was emphasized very strongly in con nection with forestry at the time. The importance of forestry from the oublic ooint of view WAS emohasized in nearlv everything we did. • - iiDiiiw ,*i»':o e;/f x<* £>fa*»"* ; ' 'itt- f -,- r. : ;lfK, • „ ,<.'r, : : . iv , • .:«fcr,i:jtejf; •• ! • • 1 uC- tl«V F.BW \3*WO . - . . '• I : . . : | : • 4 :3St • : • . M . . . . fit t;3.;3!*-i&.. O . B '-dn DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 7 MAUNDER: This was, then something that all the professors on the staff expounded? DANA:-If they didn't expound it, they took it for granted in such a way that you realized that it was titxkx presupposed. MAUNDER: Now when you completed your work at Yale what was your first actual Job? DANA: I was assigned to the Office of Silvics in the Forest Service, which was the only part of the Service that was devoted entirely to research. I'd much acre always felt that I was /interested in research and perhaps later in teaching to the Forest Service than I was in administration. When that was made known/through the fac ulty, I was assigned just where I wanted to be/... I thought. Raphael Zon was in charge of the Office of Silvics at the tine. He was about to laave for a field rip when I arrived, and I think within a week of that time he took off fora: the rest of the summer leaving me in charge of the office, so that I was saddled with an administrative job i« almost im mediately and never succeeded in getting out completely. FRY: Was Zon your immediate superior? DANA: Yes. He was not only my inax immediate superior; «k we shared the same desk from 1907 to 1921. t*ra»xx«ytrtgy«MKkY«mxxkKX«*Mrtai«xift«««. It was a big desk, and he sat at one side and I sat at the other. So he had me completely under xkx his thumb.1 MAUNDER: MJTT*™"**""***]""'***"**-"******* What* was Zon's predilection in the field of research? I take it he liked to be out in the field rather than behind a desk. DANA: Oh no. He liked both of them. His interest was very catholic. He was interested in silviculture and also in policy, with x less emphasis on economics. He was one of Pinchot«'» really close A advisors; Pinchot placed a good deal of K* weight on his judgment with respect to policy. Ion was definitely interested in publicity. He loved to talk, and he was one of the most fcux prolific writers of the time. He was constantly no *3ae«*x9Yq *tiJ lie ;m>; »!•••• a cad* ,asw :«WaUAM B • iOOJ \3rfl :: xrfXXX r.f/ Jj y^ J- .BW 3»;:'-? «!&'/ J6 fliot; lUO^c r.^3: ts«w.'3 «e^ fl«dv W--/K tiUMBAM «'• }. HMMtM»"4»l .9 b»30V3t< Ml-: . O 9dj r, L «qt aoln »b*n afiv , Iscnqa^ . . iis&v .*:>»«* *c ;/« Nft asv a.: . s::.-n: . ,w ooi M»9W ^:»«ewE jo .rile • Ml V '*• U«M)i ^1K» Utf «HI « -i. ... dr«l ftfcar *»<-' sli .asi :A, - *r>y^jjii£..3ua iKK;-..,x; i-: J*>)i-^kx; :.;j. ;;..^-,;-..: . . J sxrrt rlaeJ. »• Mf boa ,;iesb r;.' ,t MK ?sbno vis-i*£«|nDO B*l*^*"t*y«"Jtjf*^*tlii n> il«B>lMaMiMi< :^;.' c «tar- , cfiaaai .i aria s«w aK . > 3i?,Br''[r . J »«»*•;• ;. . ;:: • • . •*S8t»-;_ a». ;l*w tv jo J»afc 6003 B SiJl !>«* ,^ . • . ;-..;/ MA I - 0 «*>? S . . DANA/MAUNDER/PRY Page 8 writing articles based aaxiy partly on has own ideas and partly on lit erature he read. He was lucky in knowing lots of foreign languages and made full use of that knowledge. -•--. • :..-•.••- MAUNDER: Was he scrupulous in giving credit to his sources? DANA: No, I don't think always. He seldom used anyone else's material verbatim, so perhaps it wasn't necessary to call attention to the source. It has been said that if you copy from one person, you're a plagiarist, gats but if you copy from a dozen people you're an investigator. He was that kind of investigator. SUU9ND£R: Zon was u a very colorful person. Can you give us a it thumbnail sketch of him? DANA: Zon expressed himself quite vividly. He had quite a command of the Eng- is*k lish language, and he also k always had different ideas. He was particularly influential with a bunch of young folks just coning out of college and getting into the world. Most of us, I think, has been in brought up in relatively conservative, orthodox, middle-class circles, and to get in touch with somebody who saw things in a different light, very largely a i socialistic fcfckt light, was quite an eye openers. It intrigued Every tmresnt week or two he us very much. He/used to invite us young fellows to come out to the house in the evening. We'd sit around the table and drink tea from a Russian samovar with Mrs. Zon participating in the talk. They would bring up all sorts of things that had n never occurred • to us before, not only in forestry but in general. Zon was really very brilliant aa a conversationalist. He could talk very interestingly on almost any subject. He commonly got into philosophical discussions, and he always ^vSP*'''" ' ' emphasized the public interest. He was a real reformer. Did you ever hear of Austin Gary's comment on one of these occasions? He turned up a Zon 'a house one night. He listened to the conversation along the usual liberal lines as long as he could stand it. Finally he r>ti»ca B' • ./qitna -r i*W : .. : . :uo8 9' . . :, i it: A fX Jt*«5£ . • . •- • • • . . . ••'.' DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 9 got up, grabbed hi* hat and put it on hie head, saying, "Zon, I like you, -.:* V- - if* *iC but I can't stand your damn philosophy," and walked ax*. out. Well, the rest of us liked this philosophy; we thought it was KM wonderful. Zon always had hopes of turning me into a real liberal, but $<*t. w. he never quite succeeded. A Said the best he could do was to make me a liberal conservative or a conservative liberal, he didn't know which. MAUNDER: Were you and Zon practically the whole Office of Silvlcs? DANA: Oh no, there NX* were half a dozen or more of us. I don't know as I remember them all. W.W. As he was one of the main ones. He was an ex tremely good dendrologist and sitviculturalist/ and much older than the rest of us. Anton Boisen was another one, and B.H. Frothingham. W.D. Sterrett was a really enthusiastic investigator. He fot to studing the Virginia scrub pine,** which was then regarded as a weed. But he got very enthusiastic about it. One day he was telling one of the older men in the Forest Service about all the interesting things he was discovering about the species. The fellow waid, "Have you found a way to exterminate . it?" That was the attitude towards research plans. Two other members of the Office of Silvics who come to mind are G.A. Pearson and Carlos G. Bates, both of whom ene'tered the Service about the same time I did. MAUNDER: Would you comment more on the attitude toward research within the Forest Service when you first arrived? DANA: It was tolerant. Research was regarded as harmelss, but the real job was to protect the forest from fire, stop trespass, mark timber for cutting, supervisee logging, make BXB sure that all the stumpage that got cut was paid for. taxxkB Only the nuts got involved in xv establishing sample plots. And there weren't many nuts. ~\\\e.f(. MAUNDER: -Threi* weren't many dollars to hire many nuts, I suppose. Most of the money was spent on the work out in the woods itself. mta saw '»- ,IJ«W J,fj.'nti • j .I-*1 RV-"-' i r - .4 f ;r»S I . - » ; " a»i ' . . • . .b.;fc I salJ «Kis.- UAM .4ft ' a • . . on MNA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 10 DANA: That's very true. The administrative office was a relatively small group, simply overwhelmed with problems of fire protection, gracing -raw $,-*•. control, timber sales; they just didn't have either the time of the money for research. I think the general attitude was that research was a good field in E which to put somebody who couldn't do anything else. Sort of •* '?.? a negative qualiiication. « -frt», MAUNDSR: Was Zon pretty unhappy about this? DANA" Oh, moderately. Not nearly so unhappy as Clapp was. It wasn't until .. Earle Clapp came in 1915 as the head of the Branch of Research that there was any really vigorous campaign made to get the same kind of recognition that the administrative branch got. The Regional Foresters insisted that they should have control of all research in their region on the grounds that the research was supposed to contribute to better managment on their part. Mr. Clapp and the rest of the researchers felt that control had to rest under the sole direction of the Chief of the Forest Service, inde pendent of the administration, on the grounds that the Regional Foresters would be certain to divert research into solving problems of immediate interest instead of into basic research. And Mr. Clapp succeeded in getting that point of view adopted £y the Chief of the Forest Service. •RY: Did the sdhools of forestry or outstanding men from schools of forestry help in any way in this effort? DANA: No. It was wholly an internal affair. FRY: Did you have any experience at all in trying to incoprate research findings . into policy? **• DANA: No. That was handled entirely by an administrative group. FRY: Well, can you tell us some of the things you did do? • • DANA: One of my jobs mas an independent study whose basic objective was to find out what the handling of timberlands was doing to the dependent i* «**• Bia^t E :•{•••• .tQ »vll£n»i«J«fci3 wfT .»u« ^1 9iJ_. ?l;r,Ji8 - : ... 's'bi1 MM SBW &t- :!;..'» !*• t it,- . ,. n _ tf. eioS i . i • • • • • '..\-j I'. '! 8«U • u i • . : DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 11 • -.., communities. My job, in large part, was to look up ghost towns and find out why they'd become ghost towns. FRY: The technique you used was personally to visit these various towns? DANA: That's right. I visited them, talked with ak old timers, and took lots of picture. One of the most inters ting ghost towns I found was Cross Fork in Potter Couny, northern Pennsylvania. This had once been a very thriving and prosperous town, though when I visited it it had been bought by the state and incorporated into a state forest. I reconstructed its history primarily from the daily news papers that was published while the town was thriving. I maxtk went through every issue of that paper for several years. As a result I felt that I'd almost lived in the town. I knew a lot of the people by name and what they did on Saturday evenings, how often they got drunk and went to Jail and all sorts of things of that kind. MAUNDER: Were you able to get any other records other than those secondary records? DANA: I fot a fcomxttac few tkk through the state. The state has very little, unfortunately. MAUNDER: Were there any company records? There DANA: Xkmot were companies, but I never have been able to get their records. The companies gassed out of existence and the records just disappeared. I was making the most of what little there was available. Newspapers are not too accurate as far as details go*, but as far as the raw picture :• ,' • •; • of what life was like they're pretty accurate. My study was finally publiched in a bulletin called Forestry and Community Development. The moral, of course, was that the way to avoid these ghost • towns was to practice sustained yield forestry. though accuaate It was a piece of propaganda, &koxg based on what I think is ammanum information. ...... •*m?. •-•• • w>^ esv . l feWMl '- ' • • 'V SMOtf • . . . i :- ' '."' ;^i» 3-Jt' . f sfe«W r . «'•! DANA/MAUNDER/PRY Page 13 DANA: Not specifically, but one in the White Mountinas southeast of there and one in che mountings near Santa Fe. MAUNDER: This mush have been a xxfc rather * rugged trip that you made in the exploring excursion. DANA: (Ai, moderately so. I haven't yet forgotten my first tantu horseback ride. I left Santa Fe with a local Forest Service nan to look over some of the «% country. We went about twenty-five miles the first afternoon, which meant that we trotted quite a bit. I can remember earing off the mantle for several days. How anybody could enjoy horseback riding was beyond me for some time. Also the exploring was a bit strenuous sometimes during the rainy season. Almost every afternoon I'd coma back on horseback in a heavy thunder shower, frequently with sleet in it. Sometimes the horses would refuse to go into the storm; they'd turn around and insist on going the other way. Still, it was a lot of fun and it didn't discourage me from being a forester. I'll tell you one adventure in which I got mixed up in some fire fighting. I want down onto the Prescott Forest in Arizona to look it over as a possible experiment station site, and blamed if I didn't get hauled in by the supervisor, a very hard-boiled individual named Hldenrau, to fight a fire. I was on the fire line for something like thirty-six hours without any break *«•«««« whatever. I can remember how I slept afterwards. But after the fire Hidenrau wrote back to the Washington Office that he didn't know whether I knew anything about silvics or not, . but I was a damn good fire fighter. MAUNDBR: In the Journal of Forestry. I think it's in 1908, you have a paper that you read at the annual meeting of the Society introducing the idea of a series of experiment stations. This was presented evidently even before you had made the trip to Fortx i Valley. DANA: No, it must have been afeerwards, because I went out there in April, 1908. I ( • • ' - . | M «**** . : .. : v ij . j: j 6<- ..• bi & • :. »»r 9H . ..iawsrr . ICftlMR , rb 3s«:;?9i,. .- new «J|fc|||iqx-~ • . 30J ft , I : eooa . • I i ,15! ',!&»?• I& i TfOTHTMtell jUe~-> • . , •'ftj. , '3 -Tratr • c» . ut, a*. . • o .,..v...--i. ..:~ .. . . I-. . 4 > .. . . . • ... js«i.,»v»4 ».fp>«. DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 14 You could get something published pretty rapidly in those days. You didn't have to wait several months. MAUNDER: I wondered whetherd this had been projected as part of a plan on the part of the Forest Service to promote the idea? DANA: No, I don't think so. I think it came from the desire of a young forester to get his name into ptint. It wasn't an official statement of any kind. I'veno doubt, however, that the papers was scrutinised and criticized by ion before it was delivered. Zon used to review all of my material and always criticized it constructively. I don't think I every submitted a statement to him that he didn't bring back xi with the comment, "Sam, I tell you it is rotten'" Then we would discuss what was wrong with it, I would fix it up, and eventually it would get his blessing. 1 ^••ttA V ' •* WMT , He was usually right. There is no questions whatever that he im proved my output. MAUNDER: With research cast in the role of a Cinderella department of the C Awft IWft f"$ *• ' '. " - Forest Service, did you anticipate any opposition to your proposal for the establishment of research stations? real DANA: Thtfere were only two/questions that arose in connection with it. The , 1 f"'--'4' <•' •'*" first question was: "Wfry should the Forest SErvice establish experiment station instead of making this work part of the agricultural experiment stae tions which were all over the country?" The answer to that was two-fold. • One was the the agricultural experiment stations had their hands full al ready witn agricultural problems; they were neither interested nor com- petenet to handle forest research in the way it should be handled. How "'«TV ever, I think that if XKXBX there had been any ±A indication of the ex tent to which forest research* would grown, the agricultural experiment stations would have been more interested in taking it over than they were at the time. The second aaswer to the questions was that if the work were organized under the agricultural experiment stations every state would have to have experimental work in fores tr --and that wasn't necessary. M * • . .vat *.•• • fci'- ^OS! . - • I3BU ati ; j 0*3 Sfefta 3i 'c'--fc 1 ,: ) i C J 0 •::..•. T". : L.',7 ' I • • : •o t* '; I , -V rfOl* . • •. I - ... „, - DANA/MAUNDER/PRY Page 15 Forestry st Ivies could be handled both more economically and acre effi ciently on a regional basis than on a stateta basis. The second problem with the pax plan I have mentioned already: "Why should the experiment stations report directly to the Washington office, instead of reporting through tha District Foresters?" I've already told you bow that worked out. MAUNDER: This question of whether there ought to be forest expenoent stations independent of the agricultural experiment stations raises the questions' of relations within the Department of Agriculture. How did i* the Forest Service 8 stand with other agencies in the Department and with the De partment itself? DANA: Well, it didn't have very much relationship, at that tine, with any of the other groups except the Bureau of Entomology and the Bureau of Plant Industry, with nktax whom it cooperated in ineect and disease control. Both of those agencies were a little Jealous of the Forest Service' . attempts to work in their fields. Sometimes we conflicted with the Bureau of P ne Industry. For instance, the £ vixx very first job I had in the field was a study of the white pine blight. My study indicated the tbouble was pfcx physiological, which means there was no specific disease or insect connected with the difficulty. Apparently, the diffi culty was due primiarily to climatic conditions— a temporary affair*7. In a few yeara the white pine was arpynnr apparently back to normal without anything being done about it at all. MAUNDER: To what extent were the Bureaus of Entomology and Plant Industry •. at work on this same problem? DANA: Oh, they were devoting all of their attention to various forest insect* and forest diseases. The only question with respect to this particular)! study was whether * there was something that should km have been conducted • ftgs€ • -, no • ; . c < -i . . .; ftm :..'' -jrtt KTfK- Off : "... ' " -T» 9»" 'S^JJSS • . • • ...•- • . I • > ana? «*'..» • - - ^B P ' flAG . DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 16 by the Bureau of Pine Industry. The Forest Service felt that there were so many economic Implications Involved that It should get active In find ing out what might be done about the situation. MAUNDER: How did these feelings of rivalry express themselves between the developing research program of the Forest Service and these other Bureau* within the Department of Agriculture? DANA: I don't recall any specific txrt Incidents. The main question was where research stopped and action started. The Bureau of Entomology and the Bureau of Plant Industry were responsible for research/ and ik the Forest Service for seeing that action was taken on the basis of the results of that research. Any difficulties were minor, however, and for the most patt our relations were reasonably close and friendly. Later on, the Service had very close connections with the Bureau of Agticultural Economics, but that wasn't in existence in the early days. As far as the Department of Agriculture in general was concerned, I think it didn't pay much attention to the Forest Service anyway. The Service has always been an autonomous unit. There's probably been some envy of It for that reason. Until recent years It's been allowed pretty ant much to go its own way. Then after it began to get very large ap propriations, it wasn't too popular with some of the other agencies. They liked to see a little more control exercised over it. MAUNDER: What was the reaction to the transfer of forest entomology and path ology research to the Forest Service? DANA: I don't think that the Office of Forest Pathology taut in the Bureau of Plant Industry was at all enthusiastic about it. But my guess would ee that they think they're pretty well off now that lt'§ happened. MAUNDER: Do you think Zon conceived the ejq>eriment stations 4 to do experimen tation which would aid the federal government? DANA: Well, primarily that, but he always felt that they would also be useful • *qnJ «1 -i-tv' n - • ' ' ' ' . II ' ' - . • . I ' DANA/MAUNDER/PRY Pag* 17 to private industry whenever it was ready to use the results. The pri mary purpose was to provide materials; for better handling of the national forests, but that idea gradually changed, particularly as the eastern stations became established/ in areas where there was relatively little public land. It wvs quite obvious that their chief contribution would be to private industry. Furthermore, I think that there was really move interest in research outside the Forest Service than xxxxx in it. Private owners and state organizations were both very much interested in research. It's only within the last twenty years, I would say, that the results of research have been very generally applied throughout the Forest Service and with real enthusiasm and respect for the whole research organization. MAUNDER: Did the establishment of the experiment stations affect in any way the relations hips between foresters and lumbermen or papermen? DANA: I don't think it had much effect until the eastern stations became es tablished. These started a much closer relationship in the East between Indus tyr and the Forest Serrtce than had existed fatgaxax before. Out West I don't think there was very much influence in the early days. any MAUNDER: Can you think of axxuxy specific illustrations of this? DANA: Yes, I can think of one in my own experience. One of the first things xx I did in 1923 as Director of the Northeastern Forest Experiment Station was to organizae an Advisory Council, the chairman of which was a member of industry. Several other representatives of industry were on that Coucnil, and I'm sure they became far more intersted in what we were doing through this connection. They made a lot of helpful suggestions. There's no question in my ming that the relationship between industry and the Service was greatly strengthened through the eastern stations. MAUNDER: The gap between the interest in good forest management which was . -. • liwi - ;:r\ ; i)J ?f •: r yr. •••;: . rVS-J&i . .:fiW :..>.«>v|5i ,D V J fF.(.'f:i,- , j.fifei • <«tfc) iW«! ,B. M - .-.• . •-.. . i#i • • , .. • . . • . : ?OAtt : . . .! . . i • I bar, • . AM* !•• DANi/MAUNDER/FRY Page 18 beginning to be expressed within the forest industries and the actual practice of these ideas, was it principally caused, you feel, by condi tions which were still unfavorable to the practice of industrial forestry? DANA: Conditions that the owners felt were unfavorable, but I'm not so sure they actually were. I don't think they ever really studied the situation. a MAUNDER: This was at a tine when xkK great percentage of these companies were still in the hands of what you might call the old Nineteenth Century I rugged individualist type of manager. This generation of industry's leadership was perhaps unable really to grasp the run of a new concept like this? DANA: I don't think they were flexible in their thinking on the subject. The pattern was nut set, and they found it hard to change. MAUNDER: There were a few men in it who were beginning to show a new attitude. •ANA: Henry Hardtner and Robert Goodman are the two that I happen to know personally. MAUNDER: Can you tell us a little something about these men as you know them? DANA: Hardtner for some reason had develpped a tremendous interest in woods management. In ixix 1915 I put in some sample plots on his property down in Louisiana. They were the first cnucxhu southern experimental plot* at established. They were aimed primarily ax finding out three things: first, what is the effect of fire on the reproduction of long-leaf and loblolly pine; second, what is the effect of hog damage on the reproduction of both of those species; and thirdly, what is the effect of thinning on the yield that you can expect to get within specified periods from both long- leaf and loblolly pine. I think that those objectives have been pretty well achieved. It has been pretty clear that fire did not kill off the long-leaf pine to the extent that many people had thought it did, though it greatly reduced '• i ja*J-.-*»--**.fcNW3Ni ?v :>»-tq *KJ .- .i-/ am iiJdtTOvatav in-** wij 0 98»Ja»ot9q - r.iia • . ..... ... • '•!:*! I -> 3/j|J{< •..«8r :.••;. . • t, : • MJBH 9 .• xaMdmc. ; ;•, - ; .;. a •• -. - .... DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 19 growth, while hogs completely wiped out iong-leaf reproduction when they were allowed a free range. With respect to thinning it proved that my ideas were entirely too conservative. I thought I'd outM made some radical thinnings, and in two or three years you couldn't see that xaqc anything had happened at all. The loblolly pine in particular grew so fast that very much heavier thinnings than I tried out or that I'd contemplated for the future proved to be highly desirable. MAUNDER: How did you happen to coo* in contact with Henry Hardtner and estab- - Isih these plots down there? DANA: Well, I don't remember whether Hardtner started the thing be asking the Forest Service for help or whether I dropped around to see him because we knew in the Service that he was interested. I rather think it was the latter. It was more or less of an acciddnt. I happened to be roaming the South at the time looking primarily at first for headquarters for ex periment stations, and in talking the subject over with him I found he was so much interested that we mac went ahead and put in these sample plots. MAUNDER: Tell me a little bit about Henry Hardtner as you remember him. What sort of man was he? How do you suspect he became interested in *kn the practice of forestry on his land? DANA: Well, he was a veyy wide awake individual with a lively curiousity. He was interested in everything, and he saw real possibilities of making more •aoney out of forestry by more intensive practice of forestry. I'd say primarily he differed from most of his colleagues in ±»±* imagination, because he saw things that most of 'em didn't at all. MAUNDER: MR He nad never had any formal training in forestry? DANA: No. But he spent a great deal of time out in the woods, and that evi dently gave him some ideas that he proceeded to put into practice. MAUNDER: You enjoyed a very friendly relationship with this man for a period of years? i .*..;,! f^SljWl.JpK j'if:J •?• . : » , .:i.i. .T) j«a :> I qa1 .! I , . • •• • 'i»O* Mf 01 b» " - •- . • . • ' DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 20 DANA: No, I had never know him until I net him on hie estate in connection with ' t • • this trip. MAUNDER: Did you MtHttm maintain this friendship over a length of time? DANA: Not iatimateily at all. We Just knew each other casually thereafter. ' H ' < ? f? MAUNDER: Did you make any repeated trips back to see the results? DANA: No, I've never been to those plots since. MAUNDER: Well, I can go you one better, because I have. I was shown through them by the young forester who's related in some way to the Hardtner family, and I think his father bedore him had some part in the management of that company. . DANA: Goodman got interested a little later and.i I think, from the engineering aaoxjrita* point of view. He approached the problem as an Kk engineer who felt there must be some economic solution. He decided that selective cutting of hardwoods was the answer/ and then proceeded to practice that method of forest management. MAUNDER: What reaction did these men get from among their own contemporaries? Were they looked upon as a little «***yfr nutty? DANA: No, I wouldn't call it quite so strong as nutty, just a little bit queer OEM maybe. There was curiosity about them more than anything else, I would say. People wondered, "What's in back of all this, anyway? Why are they bothering? MBX We're making plenty of money by the methods wuw we're using. Why try to start something ne»?" MAUNDER: I wonder whether you knew Austin Gary at all? DANA: Oh, I knew him, but not intimately. I only saw him occasionally and then . somehow or other I never felt very close to him. Seems to me he was a hard man to get thoroughly acquainted wibh. He was quite Ingrownr-a perfect opposite type to Zon. Gary was introspective, reserved, and not a very ji»t*i fleunt talker. He didn't have anything to say unless there was something fc :.- ; ' . t u . • • • ! j- : . . I idttDD* i :'.'if J ^ DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 21 very specific he wanted to get off his chest, almost taciturn at times, and very serious. I can't remember when I ever saw him even smile orrf laugh in my entire «, acquaintance with him. He used to gat so absorbed in what he was itotx thinking or talking about that nothing else made any difference to him. I can remember riding with him when w he was driving an automobile up • in Maine. He got excited, waved his arms at me, paid no attentionto the steering of the automobile, and I occasionally had to grab the wheel and bring us back onto the road. He used to like to get back to Maine every summer. He had quite a little property there. He was a good Yankee. MAUNDER: I've been told that he was the first forester ever employed by pri vate industry to do a professional Job. DANA: Fernow was employed by a minig company to handle their forest properties in Pennsylvania in the late seventies. MAUNDER: That predlates anything I've heard of. DANA: Yes. I'm very sure you {11 find that referred *x to in Denny's biography of him. I should say that Gary was the next one. He was employed by the Brown Company in Maine in the very early days. MAUNDER: But the impact of these early consultant forestry jobs on the rest of the wood-using industries was rather short-lived, I take it. DANA: Yes, even on those particular companies it didn't leave any lasting im press. But when Gary got down South, economic conditions had changed to such an extent that tha South was ready to go ahead, and they responded to practical leadership on his part so that he was very affective. He was a tremendously hard worker and an escellena't field man. He was a wonderfully good observer who always looked at things from the prac tical point of view. It was his ability to combine silviculture and eco nomics that made him such a powerful force with private Industry. Industry *r .*,-;*., ' «§' - :• **«fc «*»••«< iR-v ;j*cL .. •,.•»-! , , 4 . lror!v a*f . . • rrtT I : . . i bei^ .1 • . . nr.jr.i tii . -• ,f^, . u&d* 3 | : :.ll 4 '• • '• «aw -*1 ••j§ ..to hoc- . I • . f : • . DKNA/HAUNDER/FRY Page 22 had great confidence in him, particularly in the South. He was by far the most effective forestry missionary the South has x ever had. It's rather interesting that i typical New Englander should have had so much influence more tititituutc there than he did in New England, where his early work was centered. MAUNDER: Do you have any ideas as to why that may have been? DANA: I think the South was reaching a point economically where forestry was goin to pay off in terms of dollars and cents, whil that situation was not arriving very much in the Northeast. The difference came very largely in the rates of growth of the two regions. Southern pine grows much faster the so that opportunity for profit is much greater than it is with i relatively slow growing spruce-fir in the Northeast where he had been working. MAUNDER: The chnage in the Northest didn't really come until the development of the pulp and paper industry, did it? DANA: Well, the pulp and paper industry, of course, has always been prominent up there, and also cuttings have always been conservative in the North east. There's never been anything like the clear cuttings in the South in the early days, so that from another peint of view there wasn't the need for the newer approahces to forestry that there was in the South. The Northeast was doind fatrly well without too much professional atten tion. MAUNDER: There was, • in other worlds some tradition of Eurppean forestry hanging over from early colonial times in the Northeast? DANA: I doubt how much tradition there was. I think there it was primarily economics. It paMt paid to take out the bigger trees, and the spruce and fir are both toleralnt trees vk that will keep right on gsniiag growing under the older stands, so that clear cutting was not at all necessary to get p reproduction, as it was in the South. FRY: When you were working for Zon, you mush have had some contact with Gifford Pinchot. • ' • • . -Olr.H:: i«i' ;;; ,< ?i. : .•;-; j • ~ W>» BU b.«b • : aA nil-; •/ • . we-, ofl rifiiCI f Mtf - .u tif i -: : «•«•-' I • i«§ I ••3t ' • a* w n»*c : I .• JO . • | . •3DO i.;5J (.I • ./. ' .,. . .. ' : .• . . :ijutt IT'. : . -i» , US OJ »i: ••-•/ . . DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 23 DANA: Pinchot and Zon, as you probably know, were very great fridnds. I think Pinchot was considerably influenced by Zon;s ideas. Pinchot was my idol, of course, in those days. Now maybe I think he had feet of clay, thought I didn't see it at the time. I think that he was a very arbitrary individual, and I think he held gxrfx grudges against people. For example, I fell* out of favor when I stopped being a iederal regulator. He was the most magnetic man I ever knew. He just carried you away with him with his charm; a perfectly delightful person, almost irresistible. While you were talking with him he could convince you of almost anything, but them you'd get away and revert to normal. I've seen him address a crownd of timber land owners who were violently opposed to his basic pol icies. They would give him a warm reception when he came in and an ovation when he finished his speech, and then go out and oppose everyghing that he'd advocated. His personality just carried the day while he was there. MAUNDER: Did he understand this phenomenon himself, do you suppose? DANA: I'm sure he must have. FRY: Did Pinchot have such a thing as a Public Information Office? DANA: We didn't have any education and information branch in those days. Pin- chot did it personally. Of course, k you have to understand that in £• the Forest Service Price really did most of the administration while Pinchot was Chief. He did the organizing and issued all the specific orders; Pinchot determined policies and occupied the limelight. Pinchot was the inspiration, but Price was the backbone. MAUNDER: In the early years t it would seem that the Forest Service under Pin chot really seriously endeavored to do an educational and cultivational job on industry. Yet rH^T«**r suddenly this ventur seemed to break down. Do you seem any particular point or event in the course of these years that mark that happening? el *• jfr .«{>ftfc.V>*-***9g ''-( SR • «>S felt* : - • «m-.fsfj}affw 86* rsodanil rfr I -^MTIMW . F- nl <&* E .®tt*3 »'• -r*flr§lfc BJ-. e --Jtg bi« - u,' •- a golftd brx' > ;n--;n>r» -iw^ ' '*»' 3»m wti MW aJI i ao«J i- i« ,§f. i««ryiv^*8 «S3 3e 1 •**** T!T»* fefTB fsrio . • ?>Mur» DANA/FRY/MAUNDER Page it 24 DANA: No, I think it was gradual. My gsx feeling is that Plnchot kept making offers of cooperation and preparing working px plans «£ for industry, and the plans simply got pigion-holed. The owners would say,*kx*xk "This is fine, but we're not in a position now to put them into effect." This gradually got him disbouraged. MIUNDBR: Do you have any feeling that these timberland owners could have taken the ball and run with it at the time, or were such plans totally impractical? DANA: I think they could have run better than they did. I don't think they could have practiced really intensive forestry as we see it today, but they could have paid a lot more attention to saving young growth, for instance, to leaving more seed tress, to carrying out selection currings which would leave a stand for anoth cut ten to twnety years hence, ft I think some of those things might have been feasible. The foresters quarcel with thira was not so much thatthey hadn't done anything as that they'd never studied the situation enought to find whether they could do anything. MAUNDER: How would you feel about the situation that surrounded the controversy with Ballinger? DANA: Naturally I felt very strongly that Ballinger was kne hundred per cent srong and that Pinchot was one hundred per cent right. And I still feel the same way about that. foresters Like most other *-»«Ffc« Of that time, I felt that Taft was remiss in the way he handled the whoel affair. I remember walking up 16th Street in Wash* ington D.C. one day with a fellow forester, and we happened to pass Taft, who was* presidnt t at the time, and we tipped our hats to him. The other man turned to me and said, "I will respect the office but not the man." That was the attitude I think we all had at the time. Since then, I've changed my xxi views a good deal abottt Taft. I think that he had the wool pulled over his eyes by Ballinejer. Fundamentally, he was very i AS $*«*«* .•af teifaai*) xx* y» . V! : •Jp.ubn* v «ojJfl*rsKs<«*6 1* «*»a*» •i *lrJT' rfxxio&irs ' .h»Ir>,< rsii« *an.J »f • • • I I - i' -a'<5 .jfid.! bnt 30 - Hi «J- fs»T32 . • . . : : fo r,,so • ! na ad 3fci . . ... a «d» .«4M .|.«(Hl! ^:-: :>»»f 30 M«MP> • • ts»bl«*7% »Jbs.v •. :^ni»J swo, IDIUAK ar. ;- :»vsaoo:i . fifar abnow O3 «IR ae; .>*D J: 3 M»13MO« .-w d» , >r.Ml 3- • aj oo oo^JoeM »t ... .Ml? itfU ;fc 8 MM q JftVIMOg .»» s -raum SK «. . J&ii«T ft r*a 3*n •»eo»iq ald3 ;:«•• .^-^;; . ••?jftjtTi i r-BO ,»P . " . : • -. . v^fJl <«•. ill*8 i.;iW3:i I I AAAltlVI I ^ ft fi J IB :j brsae OANA/MAUNBER/FRY Page 27 support that it had prior to the controversy. I think that the Secre- fingers taries of Agriculture? HUUK were a little afraid of getting their burned if they gave too much support to the Service. Also Grave* was not a publicity artist the way Pinchot had been. He stuck to the job of run* ing the Service in stead of advertising it, and that probably had some influence on the amount of support it got internally. After such splurges under Pinchot, it was only natural that theye whould be a slowing down, a consolidation of previous gains; I fckkak think tha 's almost in evitable. But I wouldn't say the Forest Service every got really into the dog house. FRY: Can you give us your evaluation of Henry S. Graves as the Chief from 1910 to 1920? DANA: I think that Graves mum was a very effective Chief for handling the activities that particularly needed his attention during his administration. got P nchot had £•* the Service well established, and what was needed was better organisation and administration of the national forests. Graves was very effective there. He's a man of very strong personality, which was a help to him • in doing this sorttf of thing. He occasionally would be, perhaps, a little bit arbitrary, but not enough to injure his ad ministration. He, of course, was Forester during the very difficult period of the First World War, when the Forest Service was virtually disbanded, and he had to rebuild it afterwards. He felt very badly handicapped by the lack of funds. He used his resignation as a means of stressing the importance of more adequate appropriations. FRY: Did he have an able assistant k to help with organisational work? DANA: He used the whole group of assistant foresters, but *k I think that A.F. Potter did carry the bulkg of the administrative Msockx burden. Greeley \s <»8 an- ?jwiJ jteJti . _fc*»vot.i -.-«-» »wt> ^ 7OJ-»tf L«!f-;tf'^B^ «** •' I I "•-*/ *J i-7'.: ii.'. j • ' 'O.jqoi B »' »*; ;;.j«* I jaeiaaj 1 •" a*i . /7»»:-. . I '•>& airf •r /Q eAW • . • ' . • . «*-< ^fi? • ,-.' DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 28 was also a "IT**T»* mainstay of the Graves administration. FRY: Who in the field of forestry was Graves closets to? DANA: Pinchot was his closest friend. I think he and greeley were quite close. And of course at the school he was very close to Tourney. Another on, who was not a forester, was Herbert A. Smich, an editor in the Forest Service. He was a very intimate friend, had great influence of Graves. Graves was always on very good terms with his Associated Forester, A.F. Potter, but I wouldn't regard him as so close a friend as these other folks. FRY: Was Graves capable of inspiring? DANA: I think Graves would probably rank next to Pinchot as an inspirational type of leader. MAUNDER: Rogers, in his biography of Fernow, gives Henry Graves a great deal of credit for the development of the Forest Service research program. What do you have to say about that? DANA: I don't remember what Rogers said, but it sounds to me an though he over did it a bit. Gravies always gave research his moral support, but I don't know that he paiM sank ever went out ot fight very hard for p ap propriations or that he paid much personal attention to it. The biggest to research, contribution that he made/ in my judgment, was in establishing the Branch of Research and in brining E.H. Clapp to the Washington Office to head it up. That was a distinct forward step which gave research a recognitions' it had never had before. Graves himseef made a greater contribution to the profession in the field of forestry education than he did as Chief of the Forest Servicd. There have been other good Chiefs, but nobody really compares with him as a leader in the field of forestry education, in my opinion. FRY: Tell us more about Graves as dean. .!»«(> (> «l • ;' ' ' ' 't'**1 9>!J 0-t 1C ^V.m... Ic •90*:. : ***:"* «B ... • ' I I . . ^- •' - . . • '. . . . '* fc** 3Bf i ••;» . ««b : . . . . • .be ' . . ' DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 29 DANA: His contributions are primarily H in the field of policy, philosophy, things of that sort, rather than as a teacher. He was a good teacher, but it* not as outstanding, I think,/ as some others. FRY: Can you sum up his kind of policy and philosophy as p opposed to some othere's ? DANA: It was the same as educators are talking about now: general strengthening both in terms of depth and breadth. He felt we needed to cover the whole field more effectively. He was also very K*BKX strong on the need for technicians as well as professional men. In a way our book, Forestry Education in America, just repeated a lot of things that he'd been saying for a long time. There was never any question of dedicating it to anyone else. slump MAUNDER: I'd like to return to this question of a sdbqfji in the Forest Service/ during the teens. You have said that the Forest Service was still in good standing with the Department of Agriculture, but we know that you felt something was wrong with the ••««at morale of the Service in those years because in a talk you gave on February 21, 1919 to the X±u Yale School of Forestry's senior wdk class on the subject, "A Look Ahead," you saw the war as having been a real stimulus to national thought, and you expressed the hope that htis would reflect itslef in a new vitality lease in forestry. You stated that forestry had need of a new *BXXB on life, , • ;•*• < » 4 4 .» 4 I and that much which had been gained in the early enthusiasm had died away by nhe outbreak of the war. You felt that this decline in zeal was due to what you called "resting on laurels of winning the fight to establish • the natonal forests." DANA: Don;t forget, though, that I was talking to a bunch of young folks at Yale. I felt I had to give a little pep talk. • • < qi, ma* 'wr ft»-> :u«ii. Jtiod;-. .-•!V36.T 9W :.i9> 9H .ffjfci," «0«J H««a i M ...... -: I Ml i • >*» . "a Jar;. » -^ b'»i fof 8 fasjasc t«*lfc«' fs ' • ,: i isvatM ; . . •'iSfc.t.a 8«t -Jo f»2 v wa r. oe mat USB a 20 bet ...... '/BWB Kwib bc>l nsslavdj- -9 sria '•"»». al en I W • . 3B»10J le •--.I gctuo^ lo n^nuc* * o :AH&<2 oY DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 30 MAUNDER: You had no feeling, then, that there was any depression among the personnel of the Forest Service which would tend to discourage their hopes for the future and x cause them to leave the Service for other pursuits? DANA: Well, yes. The Service was getting so large that the yonng fellows did not get positions of «««»•» responsibility as promptly as they used to, and that tended to lead to a little discouragement. You know in the early days, up to around 1920, 9t was the young fellows who were running the Forest Service— almost wholly men under foryy and most of them in their early thirties. But now other schools were turning out a lot of graduates, and opportunities in the Forest Service were not increasing at the rate that had they KB when I was young. MAUNDc,*: And there was no real indication of any seraous growing desire on the part of the owners of private forest land do employ forestry trained ••D » DANA: Mot in general. There were a few who were gettin interested, but not too many. Remember again, I was talking at Yale, and in those days Yala more than other schools had been r**""f***y a feeder of the Forest Service rather than of industry. Industry did use a few foresters , but not many of them from Yale. There was also quite a little uneasinesss over the failure of sal aries in fche Forest Service to rise. They stayed pretty stationary dur ing that petiod. Graves, when he resigned, made the very positive state ment that fee was doing it because of the difficulty in maintaining morale under that salary situation. The greatest difficulty was in getting adq- quate appropriations from Congress. MAUNDER: You had some experimence in labor relations among government employees, did you not? DANA: Only in the professional forece. The scientific and progessional branch of the American Federation of Labor was organized while I was in Washing- !•' I I- »q «tfJ3 gjpKMUR OjMsP^v- ; ; . . -• ... *di 10 1 * --'**? »»C - - * fcOR 1 *%iifcii|ii b*rf • • •*'"•' MM! 10 znoiJiM-. . ««««m.- bovoui oJ qw ,; *l*sij «i * j «pw x-i-ioiwr a«wiifl" ir»»i j*t oubui? " &•!«« 6 .->oii3 , . ;as »J. JT»W K>. . JH .ft**!* |M ' ' ' - - • - no »l«»b aalim«t tM^sa vos lo ooHswbci IMCT oa uw »^fdJ i>a* :i^«UAM b»f f&5 SJBV^I'l; JO ti'JOf, , J5SJJ &. JOO - ^«Q«i •I»Y a\afc »»iit'cii cl uas ,*Ui . . '^: ox * nitxiutt^ . &Y MP7i C--&.. jdJ •.; • O i-i-'/ufr o - . . » ^« . -rwnr* 3lg 9* .-n;t of : • r.ii.^ slfi L* i¥f ao 0*1 E,. OJ-; 00 : DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 32 Evan during war time, when wood just had to be had, and in large quantities, the French insisted that forests be cut according to what they regarded as satisfactory practices. That attitude gave the American foresters who wrtet over an t entirely new light on how an older UXXK country regards its forests. " i MAUNDER: Were these regiments made up almost entirely of mtxxkraiKXK fores tars? DANA: Oh no. They included a great many practical men from industry. Industry contributed heavily both in officers and eilisted personnel/ in both regiments. There were a lot of miscellaneous fellows too, but in general fhe Forest Service and industry contributed the leadership. MAUNDER: How did this mixing together affect the future of forestry? DAHA:/y/I would say it make mm impression on the leaders in industry as well as on the Forest Service. Although the immediate results were not spec tacular, the experience in France furnished the background for interest when economic conditions began to improve. MAUNDER: Did you go overseas*1 with the regiments? DANA: No. I was not in favor of going to war to start with, so that I didn't join up at all promptly. For several mmtai months I stayed on with the Forest Service trying to find walnut for gun stocks and spruce 6or air plane construction. t i MAUNDER: Did you have anytltng to do with setting up the big spruce operation in the Vest? DANA: No, nothing at all. My spruce work «as all in the Northeast. And I wasn't setting up an operation but finding areas where there was enough spruce to justify an operation. MAUNDER: What relationship did this assignment have to the other endeavors that were going on at that time in other regions to locate sources of spruce? r •g*V " i ,*» HMT 80 b»l>?«g»s . - ; rfc :>:. .5 • r.-\i.!3»; a !•••-. ".?£>-> < ttMta • fchlo •x»oariHaiiK >??:rfa : »y :^MMAM •*o >05 «U ,»1ft'-S '. : •>t'", 00 IV CijISi/. .:/UI • son».; • r-. . " : . • . I >e rri. . .imtq ill* 36 > -~ , • ,DOl33 .-»n • . r. »Vftd - ,.,r;-7wV: Ada nl lit t •» MV *Tt . "iKjo nr. . B7OVS»fea9 Yd: ..-fDlro-: ScUflQ ^3 - DANA/MAUNDER/HRY Page 33 i DAIA: It was an Integral part of an extra effort on the part of the Forest Ser vice to locate adequate supplies of key materiel. MAUNDER: When did the Away enter into the picture and establish what we know as spruce harvesting and manufacturing operations? DANA: I think it had already don that in the far West at this time. MAUNDER: Was that operation in the far West duplicated then in the Northeast? DANA: No. The government simply bought the materials from pirvate operators who went ahead on their own. MAUNDER: Do fcou have any opinions as to the comparison between the way things were torn* done in theft East and the way they were done in the West during that time? DANA: No. I'm not familiar enotjgh with the situation. Anyway, after the war had gone on for a few months, I felt that we had to see it through and that everyone should contribute what he could. fee* So I enlisted in the array. The army didn't think any more of my physical qualifications thajfo my father had years before. They said I wasn't husky enough^ to be a soldier. But they allowed me to do office work, so I became a captain in the General Staff. I was secretary of tee Committee oa Lumber in charge of collecting commodity statistics on lumber. I did very little except - collect figures from units in the army who had some idea of what they wanted and then attempt to find out through agencies like the Forest Service where the material might be available. It was not a job that involved nqocy very much initiative or originality. MAUND2R: The data that you gathered was pretty largely drawn from within the files of the Service itself or the Department of Agriculture? DANA: From the Army and the Department of Agriculture. • ec «M*-» •if? 3o . -.-vliij rvnxa . •-. ':' ir. :4U6 •', ,- V'.'H • : E -lUpitR ^«A »d Mi' : .9C/ tttfl I a#*9ifa '• • 1mA . . • • i& • > • ilftlt: B j :• " •• • an . : • DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 34 MAUNDBR: What kind of staff were you given to carry out this assignment? DANA: Oh, I think only one or two asslstatns. It was a very small job. The material vas pretty much available; It was a matter of compilation. MAUNDER: Was any amount of this material drawn from outside of government source*? DANA: I suppose other units in the amu army and the Forest Service drew the materkal from other agencies but I did not have to go outside of the government itself. MAUNDBR: Did this experience provice you with any valuable insights into the relationships betueeng government agencies and the suppliers of these materials? 1ANA: No, I wouldn't say sol. It was a short and rather unimportant ap part of my career. After the armistice I found it was even harder to get out of the army than it had been to get into it. In order to keep my busy theyput me to worn writing a history of the General Staff from the Civil War on. It was one of my first ventures into hisobry. I thought I did a good job. FRY: What sources did you use? DANA: I spent nearly all my time at the War College down on the Potomac going over original orders a reports and so forth. It was the first time all that material had all been brought together. FRY: Why kind of staff did you have for this job? DANA: Only a stenographer to write out the material. The rest I did myself. FRY: How long ±A did it take you? DANA: I think I was on it from the early part of November until sometime late in March. you got out of the army MAUNDER: After ikKcnxxMuxmatxr* you went back into the Forest Service? DANA: I went back as a so-called forest economics and was assistant Chief of te-^gi >o bn-** *a•- ' U»» ft ai • ! • • '13»^3F ••, «ff 3B«f3 ties ,noqo .a»a- . • 4- • ' . . ' ac , : DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 36 on getting it in on time. We had to work late in the evening for two or thcee nights befiore it was due. Finally on the last day we finished It, and Clapp carried it up to Congress in person. FRY: How did the Congressional resolution which cleed for this report get passed in the first place? DANA: Well, it came about at the time of the first row over forestry on pri vate lands, and P.nchot thought that a good want to center attention on it was to get a study of this kind requested by Congress. He was hoping that the results would support his view that the situation was so serious that fedeeal intervention was necessary. Being a stron friend of Senator Kf Capper of Kanses, he got Capper to introduce the resolution. There KX usually isn't too ouch difficulty in getting a resolution passed. FRY: I'd like you to evaluate the *fc methods used in the forest inventory. How effective and accuaate do you think it was? DANA: The Capper Report was based in large part on the inventory made by the 1914 Department of Commerce published between 1912 and tfrtt. That report was supplemented by such not new Information as the Forest Service had collected since in the way of additions, amendments, and so forth. There were no new field studies on which it was based; it was simply a bringing together of existing information, a very good Job of analysis and presentation. It was very liberally (and, I think, effectively) illustrated by charts, which we used more freely and more extensively than had been the case in previous reports. But it was really iar from adequate. FRY: Did you develop any new special abilities during your short career as Clapp's assistant? There's DANA: No. I was a jack of all trades under Clapp. Zk*x£x nothing that I can point to with pride. That;s part, I think, of thefc reason that I left OW3 TO* .§f:lHi»Vl ,-,; ,il b«d»lojt2 ew x"1 .1 iB4j^:ri .»- 3 '•' .11 &tr-i :..fct. . • . ' : . . K> - , , §«i. • I ...... . - . , If --»*0 UMM M i new :AKAQ :j • • b«j b«ri a-..:vii.«i )»e »i»v -ua i .rf b»3t • • cli. . jn««r • DANA/MAUNDER/ERY Page 37 In 1921 to become Forest Commissioner of Maine. I felt that I vac fet- tin into a SB rut in the Forest Service. I felt that I wasn't develop ing, and I didn't feel that I was cntributing very ouch. about MAUNDER: You must have gotten to know Earle Clapp quite well. Tell us atanx him. DANA: Clapp was an extremely efficient administrator who promptly put research on the map. He took the attitude that anybody who was no good in ad ministration was no good in research either. The better a man's repu tation in administaation, the more interested Clapp was in getting him into research work. He also went after money very aggressively and in creased salaries. He got experiment station directors put on the same salary level as District foresters, which had been unheard of before. And that, I think, caused a little resentment on the part of the District Foresters. They had much bigger organizations, of course. MAUNDER: How long did it take Clapp to accomplish this? He came in 1915— DANA: I don't remember. Maybe five, six, or seven years. It wasn't very eong. MAUNDER: He was a dynamic force. DANA: He ceraainly was dynamlcr-far more so than you'd realize* to talk with quiet, him a few minutes. He was very BVXKXXSH almost ingrown, somewhat intro spective, but he saw sure was aggressive in putting across a program he thought was right. It was perfectly amazing what he accomplished with that outfit in a relatively few year*. He is the fellow primarily responsi ble for getting the eastern experiment stations developed. Zon was all for them, of course; but Clapp was the fellow who organised the campaign that XK put them across. For instance, when I was Forest Commissioner of Maine, he enlisted my help in lining • up support in Congress for the Northeastern Forest Experiment Station. He used other pxapxa people in the same way. He was extremely expert at getting help in putting across -•^«wj . . ia*^"' :c i :UT MI « o50i ajU tf-tilno sr.w 7 **' ' i •••• • '$MBAM . _•.••• r,= : xr rr, ttv r :AHAC 4O03 f.ft .trjf>.r r.rti booj off •*« noUn r*» oJt •.•• sH .«r.;-.-fil»e bscr < 6* J 5" • ,3tr1: . .» • ^9rii JBW39§ • 0£ .iins^- ^ " T. H !*»TJOC MM) i«ll«» «Wt .SRlftH Hly«^ • ';~' «:BW »H .?sw «wv8 srfj DANA/MAUNDER7FRY rage JO the programs he wanted pushed. I'm a great admirer of Clapp's. I think he did an outstanding job in the Forest Service; the federal research organization is really his creation. He deserves tremendous credit for it. But he's a Messiah. He |ets an idea, and he just has to put it across. For example Clapp was invlved in every major event of his time, /He was influential in getting the Copeland resolution interpreted broadly so as to involve a stddy of the whole forestry situation. There's a question as to whether Copeland really intended that. FRY: Something that the Forest Service was up against during the twenties and thirties was the threat of being transferred to the Department of the Interior. Was Clapp involved in this fight? DANA: Yes, us to his ears. As Acting Chief Forester he was involved to the point where it was touch and go whether Roosevelt would fire him for being so active in the matter. He was working behind the scenes providing the brains for the campaign to keep the Forest Service in the Department of Agriculture, using all the influence he had. There was a special com mittee on the matter set up in Los Angeles by Charles Dunvoodie; but Clapp was really pulling the strings on that "grass roots" movement. I was entirely sympathetic* with Clapp on that; I hoped he'd get away with it, which he did. But I think that campaign is probably the main reason that he did not become permanently Chief of the Forest Service. He an- tagonizdd Roosevelt, who must have known something about it at xxxx the time, so that he simply said, No, he wouldn't accept Clapp as Chief. FRY: Do you foresee any increase in cooperation between the Department of the Interior and the Department of Agriculture? DANA: Oil yes. I think things will improve depending very largely on the sec retaries. I wouldn't be surprised if someday the Forest Service would get into *•» . ,. . ..', ft »'I . .•.!»»<.-•-• . -vl qfajfll •• . - • .'; ,6S»i a*» qs ».v :al«qo0 ad3 91. ' . • . . • . • • >J»gnA to - . i . XSX* BB q I . • . - DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 39 a Department of Conservation o£ or a Department of National !««••• Re sources and that Interior might be abolished and something else take its place. That was the recommendation of the Hoover Commission that I was on, the Task Force on Natural Resources. FRY: On that Task Force, didn't the committee that was looking over the De partment of the Interior suggest that forestry be a part of that? And the committee on the Department of Agriculture suggested that forestry shoulc stay in agriculture 2 DANA: Not only suggested, but both act argued it very vigorously. FRY: Where was your position in this? DANA: I was a member of the Department of the Interior committee. I recom mended that they combine agriculture and nataral resources and call it the Department of Agriculture and Natural Resources. I talked to the com mittee on the Department of Agriculture! about it, and they said they'd be willfing to go along, but my committee wouldn't. They thought that all natural resources activity should be in an indpendent department, including forestry. They didn't want to be bothered with agricultural activities. MAUNDER: Since you were in the Forest Service during the early twenties, may be you can shed some light on the agitation for federal regulation of private timberlands about that time? DANA: In a way Graves started the whole row over regulation of private timber- lands. I think he was ahead of his time in this matter. Before Pinchot got into the picture he was insisting that there must be better manage ment of privately wxnurt owned lands and that this would probably in volve regulation. He made two or three speeches and published several articles on the subject before Pinchot came in on it. Pinchot 's FRY: Did he try oo enlist 2*nska*$x help at first? -*8 XXKnl »•.•••••••; )n«r)TMl*G R 1O : .. c 3 . ' ••" - - .IwnfWMOS:. .;.; »SV JarfT .3 .*»0«to.. ' .-•»-.; 70S . I • • .BAG . ,HAO . • . . . I I . • 1 . n.tL- - . . DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 40 BANA: Mo. MAUNDER: To what extent do you think chat this attitude expressed by Graves * was engendered by the fact that forestry may have slipped as a burning public issue during the war years and that Graves and Pinchot and the others in their camp felt the need to lind £ some way of reinstating it as a burning issue? DANA: Veil, my reaction would be that they were not so interested in getting :-,• an issue that would attract attention as they were in actually getting otn better practices on private land, which constituted, of course, the greater bulk of the forest area. They were interested in action rather than propaganda. Public support had to be mobilized, of course, but public support was a means ra therm than the end. MAUNDER: How was the Society's position determined in this issue? DANA: By referendum votes. As I remember the votes on this matter of publtt regulation in the early 1920 's mustered only two to four hundred votes out of the whole Society. MAUNDER: Was there a vast number of abstainers nk« ? DANA: Oh yes. Probably a quarter to a third of the membership. MAUNDER: What was Plnchot;s influence on the Society's action at this time? DANA: Mr. Pinchot's influence was very strongxx. He was still an outstanding leader in the profession. There was no question that a forestry commit* tee headed by him had very great influence on the membership! in general. MAUNDER: And Pinchot was taking a leading part in committee work in the Society? DANA. Oh, yes. He was personally very active in the committee of which he was chairman. MAUNDER?: To what extent do you feel President Wilson lent his support to this suggestion? DANA: I think Wilson was too much absorbed in many other problems that seemed ar a»v. b9ga«>. ov I, .-. »ixr. ;»i;-- oT : ' 6 SS t->_. 'i YTltE»-|0~i J»> •RiO : ; • • «?a»3 • • • - ,bnsl d »Kfcxy**j<*aiME2 >•)• . r, '• I ' i»dm*". - ' 87 ! ' I 'a • • DANAfMAUNDER/FRY Page 41 to him far more important and didn't pay much attention to forestry or any other phase of conservation. MAUNDER: The recommendations which Graves and inchot were pressing for were not taken up Vy the Congress. Was the President's lack of support for K their ideas a factor of great importance in the matter or not? DANA: Oh yes, I suppose so. I would think that if the Presidnet had gone to bat for the proposal for public regulation either by the federal government or by the states it would have received much more attention in Congress than it did. But x you remember that this campaign was started immediately vqpi after the was when Wilson was virtually Incapacitated, so there was •hen no hope that he would do anything about it. And /Harding came in a couple of years later, he walso was embroiled in other matters, aside from the fact that Harding was not too strong a character anyway. MAUNDER: Do you fin there is quite a little residue of resentment left by his issue on both sides? DANA: Not generally. Oh, there might still be a little emotional reaction against Clapp for his missionary attitude toward federal regulation. Ha tried to be a leader in the wilderness when it was too late. The op portunity, 1 think, had gone by by the time that he became the Acting Chief. He was g fighting for a lost cause from the beglnlng, and he was very emotional about it. And if you find industry men who are still touchy about it, don't forget that the 1920 ' were a period of depression 6or both farmers and the timber land owners. In the early 1930 's President Hoover appointed a Timber Conservation Board at the request of the National Lumber Manu facturers' Association which went into considerable deaail as to what the situation was and what might be done about it. I was chairman of the IP S.;B£/ -s-ioH 03 no r •*'»** rfstw W 1'nkib fcftft ft*ft*9oqKi MO* 7** ttftt ft3 ea*rfq 7«» fio ; x -rfi \j V ««rf«3 soe "1 ft S**i»Jt VJMb .-j« sa^mcr,-?. I ,n»t * i ' 8t .j»i» eri-j vd «o 1 ' •rff.-E.-W3 W ««-• y»W »rf J»d3 »^ ' '».t ^•5 i »«X e : TE .tH*~: : •»J* »ld 10! q' mi»t« a sd oJ b «»v '^ I ••» * 'OM f' i woy :• serwo bn«J^«€$i . P.A 'zTt^' ' DANA/MAUNDER/PRY Page 42 Committee on Private buaxxxkl Ownership, so that I made quite a study of the history of the wood-using Indus tires during the 1920 's, particularly from '25 on, based largely on income tax reports. The num- • •.» her of failures and the small earnings on capital investments were really appalling. They certainly made one pretty sympathetic with the reluctance of timber land owners to spend any more money than they had to just to keep >; above water. There was no doubt they'd been in very difficult straits. That study was en eye opener for me. MAUNDER: Do you have a copy of the final report of the Timber Conservation Board? DANA: I'm not sure that I have the complete report. I have, of course , a copy of the report of the Committee on Private Ownership, Whether I can lay my hands on it, I'm not sure. I have a vague impression that I turned them over to Lyle Crane, in order to get some room in my own files. May be ve ought tl make sure that Lyle doesn't theow them away. Those re ports are really avluable, because most of them were not published in printed form, and the duplicated copies are getting scarcer and scarcer all the time. MAUNDER: KBXZH Now in compiling the information that M you sought for this group you as must have ranged broadly through both ogyernment agencies, the Bureau of Internal Revenue, trade associations, and all that. DANA: No. We didn't go much to trade associations. We confined ourselves z largely to Bureau of Internal Revenue reports. We got a great deal of original confidentila Information out of that Bureau. That really fur nished the bulk of the statistical data. MAUNDER: You came to this by appointment from the President? DANA: The President appointed the Board, then the Board Itself appointed the i i 1*1 JOpCi : j •...•-•..•. .' XiOUf >.»..»* 'JJa '.HI BO •6-JJ V^t . t ' • StXjW ' •nT . • • v * • • I • ,M [< ' I MM i •' l I :;. : . •> \ DANA/MAUNDER /FRY Page 43 chairmen of the various committees. I'm quite sure ray appointment was engineered by R.Y. Stuart, who vas Chief of the Forest Service at that time. For some reason he vented me for this particular job, which I finally accepted with great reluctance. MAUNDER: Did you know President Hoover personally? DANA: No. I met him years later in connection with the Hoover Commission on Govermental Organizations', but until this time I had never met him. MAUNDER: What would you say about President Hoover's interest in forestry af fairs? DANA: Well, I'd say his interest in the economic aspect of forestry — the re lation of timber producgion and utilization to the economic and social welfare of the country — was very keen; but his knowledge of and Interest in the technical aspects of forest management less so. He had a busi nessman's Inters t. He was very much Impressed with the importance of forest Industries in the national economy and felt the importance of doing something to strengthen their position even before the depression hit the country as a whole. Also vk he was a personal friend of Wilson Compton. MAUNDER: Would you be inclined to say that he showed same greater inters t In the field than his predecessors since T.R. ? DANA: I'd say he showed less interest* than Theodore Roosevelt but more interest than any other presidnet up to his own term of office. I think that Franklin Roosevelt again showed more Interest. The two Roosvelts have been the two presidents who've beensac* outstanding in their interest in forestry and other conservation affairs. FRY: Why did you say that finft Clapp's campaign for federal regulation was a lost cause from the h«s*Htn&ifo beginning? DANA: ixxktitk People in the coutnry in general, Including foresters, no longer favordd federal regulation. I think many of them followed the same course I did: I believed in it once but came to doubt its wisdom. I know Xlapp felt quite strongly about me because I wasn't supporting his campaign. tte hurl KAAM •• =*ao» ««•••!. *-«r 3 ' • '•• r i'i.}q' • : •jsnoo- IMS I . • • av ia»JW :«KMUA» to« •i'c. fc1' •• I . . >»CRB : •»fl oqniJ; & - , . . • - • MM " ' . . •• :ii&Ki »tiJ «e -of • - . . . . DANAjfMAUNDER/FRY Page 44 We had beean quite close, too, same as I was to Zon. FRY: What shifted you? DANA: I didn't see HxMxXxflXKHKB* any hope of getting the federal legislation, for one thing. And I thnk I've tost my faith in federal government as a good regulator. I think that the local governments are much more closely in touch with the situation and can do a better job. I favordd federal legislation in earlier days because I didn't sea any hope fore' getting the states to do anything. Now the states are doing something, and private* owners are voluntarily doing ever so much bet ter than they did back in those days too. FRY: Do you think that individual states are less subject to pressures than the federal government? DANA: I think the states are more subject to local pressures than the fed eral government is. On the other kxrf hand, in our field of forestry I think that owners generally now have reached the point where they want to cooperate with thex state. What pressure they put •HUBH* on would be very largely in favof of getting something done to encourage what they think are sound practices. FRY: I'd like to get your opinion of what a model set-up would be if you to were given the power ax legislate forestry for private industry. DANA: I think that I would adopt the ftx Swedish system. Sweden comes nearer to having federal legislation, of course; it's such a small country it's hardly more than a state. In effect control is exercised by a group that represented the state, local agencies, and the private timberland owne s, and they agree on what gmmrtiart standards should be adopted. Then the state enforces the standards. This is quite a change from back in the 1920's when I was all for federal regulation. MAUNDER: The pest-war period is where Bill Greeley really begins to emerge. . .: {?•• : T .gar ft? •<•» If. • . 10 »•_ ' • -^•10 1--Jin . I :-.•!» • • '•' I ; . • - • • JO . . . DANA/MAUBDER/FRY Page 45 la it not, as a very powerful figure in the whole picture of forestry? DANA: No. He began to emerge before that. He'd been emerging as a cooing man vay back around 1907 or '08 when he was a forest supervisor in Califor nia. You noticed him even then as a comer, a man who was undoubtedly Regional Forester at Missoula goin way up the ladder. He was B'ifif|BH**''n^ry^"*TTy '«p»»»y*TriHr»«ai«nt gg £ very young man. In 1910 I was detailed out there to work under him. I remem ber going out having heard of his reputation as a tyrant with very high standards and no mercy on anybody. I was a young fellow just out of school, scared to death of him. But the first Sunday I was there he in vited me over to haves supper with the family, and let helped wash the dishes and hleped his daughter learn to walk. From then on I never was afraid of Bill Breeley. I found he was a human belong. But he had that reputation within four or five years after he'd graduated from Yale. He was a HKKXHH strong man and everybody knew it right off. MAUNDER: Did this impression of his domineering personality and hard two- fistedness continee right along through the years? DANA: Yes . MAUNDER: Did this show up in later years when * he was Chief of the Forest Service ? DANA: Yes. Greeley was unlike Pinchot in lacking personal magnetism — MAUNDER: This might account for the accusations of his being cold. DANA: That's right. He and Pinchot were alike in that either of them mcfci would sacrifice anybody, no matter how close a personal friend he was, if he felt it to be necessary in the line of dury. Pinchot felt that he had a tnissiop; Greeley felt that he had a duty. He was ruthless when he thought it was essential--but he was always ruthless regretfilly. In other words, he x had what used to be known as the old "Puritan conscience.11 MAUNDER: That's, of course, a military man's attitude too, isn't it? • ^j:>. . ' s) '. . •; n i . J . ;l3 X7fi.i t Jiro »ij. •rfH f»M»& - • • •••£ • • • DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 47 said, "Sam, is that what people really think of me?" I said I was afraid it was. It was obvious that he'd been cut to the quick and that he did n't feel himself that he was that kind of a person. After a little fur ther discussion he said that if people felt the Service ought to be in vestigated, he'd be« delighted to ask for their frank criticism. "If you will give me the names of the people you think Might have criticisms to make, I'll write them a persoaal letter urging them in g friendly terms to tell me everything that's on their chests." As far as I know, he go* only one reply from that letter, from Ralph Haw ley at New Haven. I also wrote Greeley at some length telling him what I thought the criticisms were and why they'd been made. I think we were the only two who wrote to him. This poor response K led the sponsors of the resolution to feel that they did't have a very good case, I guess, because I never did recieve any formal notice n of it. Greeley eventually answered my letter to him at great leagth ex plaining why the actions criticized had been taken. Among other things, I remember his comment that loosemeas had crept into the organization, falling that it was more or less iattytiig apart at the seams, and the he found that it just had to be jacked up and put on a more business-like, efficient basis. In doing * so, hv was accused of over-standardizing things, and maybe he did. But he wrote a very convincing letter, which, indidentally, has not been thrown away. MAUNDER: Good. DANA: I think I may have my eetter to him, too, which is unusual. MAUNDER: Good. We would be very happy to have that or to see that it gets placed in the proper repository library or some library of your choa>sing. ! DANA: Two things about this event interested me particularly. First was Greeley's obvious hurt at the opinoin the people had of his personaltiy, V •4f»idJ tfl '-'••-.•' ar «1 ,n»8" ,b.l»e 4 --sr*.-) bo* tafeft . r?»3 • il«u» »oiV3*fe -ji ejqo&« ii *a.f 9»ib •.. e«V it; jiniiJ.i i.ov elqo#q 4riJ Jo ftaorfto ads «• ovl^ ;;>>; si fas ^r II 'T (ia m» T»V* $ 'q*-r MH> vfr/Q ' T J Alfn- i *noa j» y: «! 3* \ . >tom niHuf b' ;Mb xdw b.< . ; loqt; siO bt; > »«f voorfT .• -rr- srf; ' MH»S - bM; isvsrr I *tuc3ftd . fq r. . ?ntc:ic • tfNMBO' gr '•. gP^>: ;;' O5 bar^ ^.aw^ ; a«<- ..-.iaeff ' .bib 6i! 4^03 ..m nwbirft c*»d ?• .laucoau si dolriv ,».o; ,r av Mf bluow •*' JMUAJ , r; ' J <)|, :': ; >. bslf *lqc>- ^SJ DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 48 and second was his readiness to invite a grank expression of their criti cisms. He held no hard feelings against me for talking with him so freely, for a few weeks later he appointed me as the Forest Service representative to the World Forestry Congress in Rome. To as this is typccal of Greeley that he never held anything against a person. MAUNDER: What were some of the steps that you recall Greeley took to reorganise and tightne up the Forest Service organization? DANA: I remember that he rquired more reports than had previously been called for, so that administrative office both in the field and in Washington would have a full knowledge of what was going on. He required that things be done according to his standardised forms ft rather than leaving it up to each individual to handle g* things whatever way he thought best. It was a combination of little things of that sort rather than any one out standing change that he made. MAUNDER: How do you suspect these changes in the Forest Service setup were looked upon by Pinchot and Graves? Were they in any way critical of Greeley's tec ties in that they constituted a sort i of criticism in a sense of their previous administration? DANA: I have no first-hand Information on that at all. I can only guess, and that would be that Pinchot was probably somewhat critical and Graves pro bably not. I don't think that Graves would take it as a reflection on his own administration. He would feel the times were changing and that Greeley was catching up with them. MAUNDER: Were there evidences of this looseness of organisation in fk the For est Service that stuck out in your estimation when you were thete? DANA: No. You see, I was not in the administrative end of the work. I had nothing to do with administration of nati nal forests, whech was what Greeley was trying to rectify. My work had been K±X* entirely in the , r<.ta«»vq»» *«««•» Miynii 03 «•*:,. *!;fiwi e.— t n :B%B ag. ..-, *B LaaaHyi* * >.«Jt»«rvt-. -SKK4B t .'S)'jj>v -.i«r«a »u »»1G« OJ A> ^«W» iO^ «d3 q« *: ns-^r u CMiJ i..-^oq: •M >e ««w q« .v fe | • !> «K> I Mg0f. .. . I : viov ft«» i ; e ec -i •»' • . ->I «ri id ni i.TuauxJttui *Y. <£**<<. br,. o be» • ' i xx*s «str • ^J DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 49 Bra ch of Research, and within that unit we felt ourselves pretty free and easy to do things as we thought x best. Wen weren't very much in terfered with by any of the standardisations that Greeley put in. But I think that on the whole it was a good thing for the Forest Service. I think that he improved the organization and got things move* ing along much more smoothly and efficiently. He introduced a lot of new personnel whose influence was pretty good. MAUNDER: To what extent to dyo feel Greeley was influenced by business methods and businessmen of xk his time? Or weak this just merely an expression of his own Yankee character coming out? DANA: Well, my guess is that it was an expression of his own personal character istics. I don't believe he was under any pressure from the outside at all. Greeley was essentially an organizaer. He was excellednt for get ting machinert to work well. I remember Ovid Butler telling a story, for instance, about the ver£ serious fire season of 1910 in Region One when Greeley was Regional Forester. Butler was in the Regional Office at that time. He waid that the office was in an uproar. Nobody knew exactly what was going vnftx on ii . Then Greeley went out in the field. He came back one day, and wihhin 24 hours everything was on an even keel and everyone knew exactly what he was supposed to be doing. I think ax of one other incident that I think is worth recording. legislation It arose about 1925 from the attempt of the stockmen to get xcxxixxxn which would give them greater privileges on the national forests than '\ they'd previously enjoyed. At that tine, as at present, there was no i,\ legal provision for the creation and administration of national forests, for the purpose of range management. They insisted there should be, and Greeley was willing to go along with them on xte legislation that met xxfcx with his approval. But there was a good deal of opposition both ••<.'• e/ivitaauo ait* »w -iJ/u .stasS io ri? B;rti aF T. Ml , n .c 10 jw t ' »i. • ' • OB *. . »-i'3 bftvo-Kinri . -.olwat • •09 s^ro« riau.-i: 5» " tlOl »»OfH, «3ci»i«trtf ^/. a.i»9»D .f . -i o.,.- .aa«v P«i8MDJ«lltf km d a«"' :..J JOffft? 10 »t a* . • • DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 50 within and without the Forest Service to any legislation on the ground that that was just gett ng the camel's nose M into the tent; that stockmen • :- \Jt would take over the timberland and timbergrowing would lose out in compe tition with grazing. At the annual meeting of the Society of Ameican Foresters I was asked as president to appoint a committee to study and 9 ** ** V W* (JJ. -f - *- report on the proposals made, including Greeley's. The committee of three men submitted a majority report which opposed legislation and which was unanimously approved by the Council of the Society. Since most of the Council members were Forest Service people, that put the Society in the position of opposing a proposal by the Chief of the Forest Service through members of his o«n organisation. MAUNDER: Do you recall some of the members of the Committee? DANA: Yes, The chiarman of the committee was H.H. fkpsi Chapman of Yale; the other two members were Henry Schmidt of the University of Minnesota and A.W. Sampson of the University of California. . MAUNDER: There was both a majority report and a minority report of that com mittee. How did the three men line up in those *«•«& reports? DANA: The majority consisted of Chapman and Schmidt. The minority was Sampson, who submitted a report favoring the Greeley proposals for legislation. MAUNDER: Do you recall what your own position was? DANA: Oh, yes. I strongly supported the majority point of view. I told Greeley of this situation and said that if his bill came be fore Congress the flsuMti Council would feel obligated to oppose it in behalf of the Society. What would he do about it? He said he wouldn't do anything. We had the right as citizens to express our views through the Society of American Foresters. He was sorry that we didn't agree , with him, but if we wanted to oppose him it was ours: right/ and he would'nt hold it against us. Fortunately the rtwke» stockmen lost interest in tr. • .Mutt- Kxi-r.. t•• i '»sre *:, , atfc /i.» S .nioqq.n ;fvr-. a, t'jbf.» ejsM^ortq s.i.U oo ^ : Moqqo ii^ld« -!V .. itoLt,w • !>oJJiodoe at • I • :-T«chMir rf3 9jM ^0 I» .«>t9Mlr' I ;r,£H'u* to o-ratiretMji s,< < )o 9«oe :1SOKOAI^ lo BawiJM? SMJXi . . &daeNB ova 7t . . Jioq. . .•: . . "" . 'aloq mfO : >q . :Q :AMAO ' 8lli 1. -v-ici 4gil4o < ow dd bas . ' nl. •S*»i»3tii .!aa jus.yyjta. DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 51 i Greeley's bill, which didn't go far enough to suit then, so it never I received a hearing. It was just dropped. But the Society actually did sent H.H. Chapman to oppose before Congress the « legislation that was being advocated by the stockmen. To the best of my recollection that was the first time that the Society of American Foresters had ever gone on record in that way on a matter of public policy. Theye had been a good deal of opposition by many members of the Society to having our group take any action on matters involving policy. They felt that we should be only a technical society and not concern ourselves with matters of policy, especially if they wee were controversial. But the Council decided that here was a case where we Ktmrtx should express ourselves, and we paid Chap man's expenses to make the presentation. MAUNDER: How did this precedent affect the Society's policy in this regard in later years? DANA: Well, I'd say that the Society has vacillated. There have been times at which it has been entirely ready to express itself greely on matters of policy at Congress or/ anywhere else. Other times it's been rather kxi hesitant to do so. In general, there has been an increasing gn ten dency to particpate in policy matters, and I think that tendecny is still growing. FRY: How would you evaluate Greeley as Forester? DANA: Very high. He was an excellent administrator. He organised and di rected things wll. He was always clear-cut: when he had a policy, you knew what it was. FRY: How good was he at development of policy? DANA: Very good, I think. I regard him as a man of outstanding intellectual capacity. FRY: I take it them that Greeley is one of your choices for nomination as i one xkx of the best administrators of the Forest Service. •• '• 1 1 ... ' ., i . !>»tjq'. f •*'• saw Je- • •••'•• i! jj»**i •OOf <9«A 'V'. •{-". 1 ^•dT I *fta '• . NT 1 -i»n 01 MNMIl bt«g»Y ?1 T« • • :«1 n»*d «'}.: *« .»«!• *!? : ..-art' lot M T»^»9-- a ar.w »H ./felrf ?!, :> «X»^ ;>l*vefc £». TMJ :' DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 52 class DANA: There's noboyd I'd put in Greeley's nin:. I don't think Pinchot was class in his u*xz, even. MAUNDER: To what extent to you feel Bill Greeley had the ear of Presidents dur- int the time he was head of the Forest Service? DANA: Honestly, I don't know the anser to that. That's ones: phase of Greeley's with career/which I never had any* contact. But my guess would be that there weren't many in the government service with ouch relationship to Calvin Coolidge. MAUNDER: How close was your friendship with Bill Greeley in the years that you were in the Forest Service? DANA: Well, I thought it was pretty cloee. I don't know what Greeley's feeling about it might have been. I felt very much at home with the entire family. We were frequently at their house, and they frequently would come to our house also. I would think I a way that I was closer to him personally than I was officially. MAUNDER: How often did you see him in the course of a working week? DANA: Well, when we were both in town I would see him at laaat every other day, but not necessarily on official business. We'd say hello in the cor ridor or have lunch together or something like that. You see, I never reported directly to him. After he became Forester I was Assistant Chief of the Branch of Research under Clapptf, and my official contacts with Greeley happened were always through Clapp except when Clapp •hppaawd to be out of town and I became acting chief of our branch. MAUNDER: What would you have to say about the social life that Greeley led in Washington as compared, let's say, with the social life that Pinchot had with members of the Service? DANA: I'm not at all familiar with Pinchot 's social life, but my guess would be that it involved many more people in circles outdide his official activi ties than Greeley's. While Colonel Greeley had many outside connections, he still aaw a great • deal more of his family and men in the Forest Service. .<•»?• . "- • . **** °y : ~«l **v Mt «Ri* arfa 3;u . o3 ir- " . Hi .-D- jwt -»/: f»«» •4 fHtolz w» *S*. -•*«« •H •Jiltl* •• i .uori SS» f f .SJA« •.:•» :Attfe(i ... •sA «sw » • • . . ®W 3«r: : • ' ; v:«K . . : I .il '!•*•- a« fe»vl©Wi * wets I.f DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 53 MAUNDER: He did go out of his way to cultivate their frienship and get next to them ina social way outside of the office, then? DANA: Yes. I can't say with how many that was the case. But whenever he was on social terms with people they we e extremely good. I think everybody who was a guest in Greeley's house at all frequently felt that ha had a rather ideal family life and that guests were always most welcome and treated most hispitably. He simply put the office in the background whenever he was home with his family. Now I don't mean that when he had guests like Wilson Compton or other distinguished notables interested in forestry they wouldn't talk shop, but as a family, shop* was just about out of it. I once asked him how he stood the strain of being Forester. He said when he left the office he turned the key in the lockx and never thought of it again until he returned the next day. MAUNDER: How did you and others in the Service Sm±, feel about his departure to the West Coast Lumbermen's Association? DANA: I was personally very sorry, and I think a good many others were too. MAUNDER: Did his resignation come as a great surprise to you? * . DANA: Yes, it did. I had no idea that anything of the sort was in ±xt the wind. On the other hand his appointment in 1920 to succeed* Graves had been no surprise to anybody. I think that all of us took it for granted that he was the only udk real candidate for the job. MAUNDER: Have you ever suspected at all thatGreeley's decision to leave the Forest Service may have been influenced just a little bit by a feeling that ' perhaps his own group wasn't with him all the way? DANA:XXX I never supposed so, but I'm not sure. My own feeling would be that it wouldn't bother him too much to be opposed if he thought that he was doing the right thing. I think he just felt that he had accomplished the things he was particularly qualified to do. The only reason he ever . M «d3 MV. . 8« 3* i- . ' : ' vt- «r»Ktx» * iw awi*i oo vri Mf p»f 1 a aaw I jBfltfT, b»J w ^»4 uw Mt v»v*a«iJk « tait »( HIMT ».-, . . . B »»OC O ' . . ;» Jil ] ' XBi : : •. ia»W s r.iioavMi "-''*' ^ • >»?« ft aagl**? «ij igaOH.'". v uij net ,-at, SA. : aits oO ••'!• 3iw. i Jbui •> Ji o sib raw .d iA&HfU& f.e»5 e . . c •'.••• , • . DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 54 V gaye me didn't seem very convincing, but there may be something to it. / I expressed some surprise as well as regret about his leaving, and he said, 11, Sam, I Just got tired of doing nothing but sugn letters that some body else wrote. I felt that I ought to getdownx to brass tacks and really do something myself." My own guess mdabdK that there were two primary motives in his mov ing. One would be that he had gotten fed up with red tape of government receiving and wanted to get into an opening where there was more chance for initiative; and secondly, that he was tremendously interested in seeing more forestry practiced on privage land, and hex felt that this was an opportunity to advance forestry a from an inside position, perhaps • even more influential than he could be in the forest Service. HAUNDER: Greeley never seems to have had the aame kind of asddi ambitions that you associated with Pinchot. DANA. He had no* political ambitions, not the slightest. I think, however, he was very ambitious not only to be but to be regarded as one of the out go standing leaders in the forestry profession. He wanted to An down in his- tory as one of the men who succeeded in getting forestry more generally and more effectively practiced, particularly on pirvate lands. MAUNDER: He was a great believer in getting frass roots activity in any scheme that he was supporting. I suppose this attitude was felt perhaps in some of his work in the Forest Service. \ DANA: Well, I'm sure xk* that's true to an extent, but I wouldn't think it a hundred per cent true because he certainly was in favor of a very strong central organization in the Forest Service. Even after tee s. went into private work he still felt the need for powerful organisation at the very top iavxs level. On the other hand, he did not go as far as Pinchot rtxft in feeling that generally you get more progress from the top down than you ^ ott jm bnu ,j.-!tvr,ejt •)ve« ofc Jo . -. . ;Jsi* ll»^ • - • ' «a ^ • • - : ' • • • . , • • DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 55 do from the bottom up. Plnchot believed much more In passing the word down from above than letting it grow up from the bottom. MAUNDER: Greeley was always receptive to ideas coming up the line. DANA: That's right. Very much so. FRY: As long as we're evaluating Foresters, I'd like to ask you if Silcox appeared to have any great administrative avility. DANA: Not to me. I think things were pretty loose under him. He was a Clapp type in that he was a missionary and ku had great zeal. He had a very fine personality, much more magnetic than Greeley. He was an exteemely warm person. FRY: Was Watts a warm person? DANA: Moderately. Only moderatly. FRY: How do you feel about Watts as an administrator? DANA: Not too strong. I think things more or less alii along in the usualy grooves, ix I'd just nx classify him as a good man but not an out standing one. MAUNDER: You wn were Forest Commissioner of Maine from 1921 to 1923. DANA: Are you ineeresting in knowing about how the appointment came about? MAUNDER: Yes, I am. DANA: Well, it ahppened about a year or two before that. I had been talking with Percy Baxter while he was 2xc President of the Senate, before he became governor. He was a man that I kad known from boyhood. We nxc were brought up together in the same town. Percival Proctor Baxter. Anyway, we talked about forestry in various ways, and he said something to the effect that he wasn't too satisfied with the way the department vas hxgg being run and he wished that I could take it over. A few months later, he became . governor through £ the death of the Incumbent, and shortly after I wrote to him and reminded him of this conversation. I said if he really was .; I '«3 i>ri ,iEs-r3 :^3G:'Hj.,: . j] «A R-J381- . • * *UW •f»» » r ' . • . fcr' ' JDt» • . I . j *a* til -*«bv- i • l(j >O 3! Jfirf .! (>«• ' • ' ' DANA/MAUNDER/FRY page 56 in earnest and wanted a forester who would be interested only from a professiona, not at all a pi political, point of view, that I'd be very gstt glad to be considered for the job. But when he nominated me to be Governor's Forest Commissioner the/Council refused to confirm my nomination. One of the grounds vas a rumor that I was a Socialist. MAUNDER: On what was this rumor based? DANA: Partly on my stand on federal regulation of timber cutting and partly on that p fact that I was a member of a radical organization anyway — the "* • - T*- W Forest Service. I would think that my close association with Zon, who was recognized very generally as having socialistic tendencies, was psx probably the major reason that I got that reputation. My geing vice president 6f a union might have played some part too. • In Maine the Executive Countil has authority to approve Maine's major appointments and to participate in other • ways in policy making. It has • realy power; it can check the governog in a good many different ways. So before they would confirm my appointment I had to get letters of en- dorsement from Gifford Pinched: and Henry Graves. They even called up my brother and wanted to know from him if I was a Socialist. He assured stable, level-headed them I was a KftaHtipttintnt individual. The funny part of it was that after I got up there and they got ac- quainted wit me, we became very close friends. These folks who had had no use for me to start with decided I was a pretty good fellow after all; but the governor who'd appointed me wasn't quite so ayxaxirii sure about it. FRY: What were the politics of the Governor's Council? tM : *'• DANA: I think they varid. They were Republicans, but there were some Taft Re publicans and SB some Roosevelt Republicans. The governor* was, I'm very sure,» a Bull Moose Republican and a very strong advocate of Roosevelt. And a rather a worshipper of Pinchot. He had the same views as Pinchot I erf Woow or*, oj « feftJo*v i;J. . 3V »d b'l IkJ , »^a »tf O1 «tr ' . •oO .aoiJftr.rnMi x'f; »- • -' b««* '^ '.'•noj e«iwro:/ -,, .4 B » »»* ... .. . iM[ t»r;» ir . * «c .. :4HAa . i«* M .»»iva»£ 3«t mf SAW <«oJ9a»bci . SM»« b»^l . . .r, • ,ftlde --.-/. . . - ", . •eff '?el sco0 ST- • DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 57 in regard to the water power interests and the timber interests. He hated the water power people more tm than anybody else and the timber people next. To him they were all "monopolists" and "predators." MAUNDER: What was your own personal relationship with the governor of the state whilw you were in Maine? DANA: Well, xhac we were frienlly as far as personalities go, but officially the governor did not think I was sufficiently hard-boiled with eespeet to the bimberland owners. He thought that I wasn't making a fierce enought effort to bring them to heel. To the contrary, I found the timberland owners most cooperative in all matters relating to forest fire protection and in general anxious to do a better job in the way of forest management, so that I got along better with them tkmx than I did with the governor, of ficially. MAUNDER: Was his attitude based on a real antagonism toward the industry, or was it part of the popular notion of the day that beating the forest industry people over the heads was a sound thing to do to get votes? DANA: Oh, I think it was a little of both. MAUNDER: Had the position of Forest Commissioner been a part of the so-called "spoils system" up to that *» time? DANA: It had up to that time, but I think that the position that I took got it out of politics, and it's been pretty well kept that way ever since. MAUNDER: X Was your predecessor, then, a non-professional? DANA: Yes. He was • man with very wide practical experience, but he had no juuu professional trailing in forestry. Incidentally, he was a very com petent individual in not playing politics. A very good man. MAUNDER: Did he xa± remain on in any capactiy under you? DANA: No. I'll give you an illustrative of the way politics, I think, had figured previously. Neil L. Violette, the man who was the rfapmre deputy when I took the KB% job, had also been a deputy some years previously. When I came • '>3«t «' • • •-N'T^-" ' * *C ' - I ' ! ffl£ ' - ' ' - ' I *iq fle •oaB«o£ -- f HU3 ' ama-j i> • : • ' ^lauoi DANA/MAUNDBR/FRY Page 58 down from being sworn in to speak to him I noticed that he seemed a little embarrassed and nervious, and I commented on the fact that I hoped that he would stay on, at least for the time being, until we could bet — T**»y really acquainted with each other. He said he'd be gax glad to do that. This was somewhat different from his previous experience whan a Democrat had been appointed to the job. The first thing he said to him after he was been sworn in was, "You're fired!" MAUNDER: Can you remember any instances when politics intruded into your work? DANA: Oh, I might mention possibly a couple. Shortly after I took office I got a request from the State Republican Commit tee to circularise the rield force for contributions to the Republican Party. Nobpdy evan asked my politics, curiously enough)!. They just assumed I was a Republican. FRY: What were you really? DANA: I was a Roosevelt Republican, A Bull Mooser. I replied by sending a pe sonal contribution, which, tsat incidentally, I was happy to sat make, and waying that I would not circularize the field xsaot force, that they •snoncax were not in politics and were not go ng to * get into politics as far as I had anything to do with it. My deputy, Neil Violet te, knew the ins and outs of politics very thoroughly add was extremely helpful to me whenever any political questions cane up. So he said he would explain to the Republicn Committee how I felt about such things. He was sure he could straightn it out. Apparently he did, because I never heard from them again. I remember another incident a little fctt later when the governor's brother called on me one day and said he didn't think I was giving his brother adequate political support. I told him it was definitely under stood when I came to this state that my job was a professional one and that I was not going to delve into xx politics in any way whatever, and ' C bM&a«-Ml 3t, -.;o» $'ttM *3 bMOd • 1 ' '<• ->» • .»'-. •a » ( -.ihr««M •d tea a« i«MW!f • it .»'' I v »qa« : a«t Y» . A ,^ i - M , • " • - ' • . -. • DANA/MAUNDBR/FRY Page 59 I was sorry the governor didn't like the way things were going. Still another little incident might possibly be of some interest. Every year we apointed men known as Chief Forest Fire Wardens who were in charge of fire protection work in different parts of the state. One of year I decided not to * reappoint one is the men, who had apparently done no actual work of any value for the last two or three years. Unfortunately he was a a very prominent Republican politician. He was very much irked at being relieved of this job ans started to stir things up. So my deputy and I developed the idea of establishing the new •£ of Honorary Chief Forest Fire Warden, and we made kirn an Honorary Chief Forest Fire Warden with a very elaborate certificate certifying that fact. From therm on he was one mi of our best friends. Incidentally, that job is still in effect; I get an appointment every year as 2a Honorary Chief Forest Fire Warden. FRY: What were your duties as Forest Commissioner? DANA: The biggest job was forest fire protection. The State of Maine has a law which taxes timber land ownrs in the wildland region of the state to provide a fund for fire protection, and the Forest Commissioner hex han dles that fund. That's tax? by far his biggest job. About the time I went there, the white pine blister rust was be coming a serious danger, and we took over the job of tat tempting to con trol that. That was another protective acticity which took quite a lot . m of time. One other thing that was patt of my job was the management of lands owned by the State of Maine. In fact, the origiaal title of my office had been Land Agent; the term Forest Commissioner was added later on. The state x lands consisted of about 70 or 30 thousand acres scattered all over the state. But about the only job in handling these lands was to make occasional timber sales from them. They weren't carefully supervised silvi- culturally; it wasn't possible to do any intensive management because the ee . •?..:?'•• wo« i-..' . ' •*» WSHui OMI ' . :v^: . I ;-* MM 3- 'JU* !« IP . • W «*V . b0V9! '.-;ioB S • . Jbui aero »MT . 6f '.- •-' 3»»T-. :AKA< ' i • ' i'T«..li- ; 't»w • , l0MU§aiUMI DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 60 tracts were small and scattered. So the purchaser who went in cout cut about what he pleased. FRY: What about land acquisition? £.•> . •' : ..•''•:, . I-'-' On CM iWrtatiftatiC DANA: Not a bit of it. State forests were taboo when I was there. Timbetland * *a« owners just wouldn't hear of ;it. I talked a little about it, but not very much. a«r oj n I did quite a bit of general publicity and education work. I tried ft •** r fc to interest the legislature in providing control of cutting on important watershed fauhl lands, vhere poor cutting might result in «x*»rei erosion, UO tJl£ floods, and so on. That never got anywhere, rather predictably. Then I organized a Maine Forestry Association, one of these public organizations that just built up interst in forestry. FRY: With membership made up of whoa? MMJ DANA: Anybody you could get dues from. Timberland owners joined very freely as a means of getting on the inside. . «tt up mi. 9*m « work FRY: Did you have any encouraging reactions in your efforts to encourage the pri vate owners to adopt sustained yield practices? DANA: Yes, very much so. The forests of Maine lend themselves very well to * * - -»»w W W seletctive cutting, so the private owners were fcodbcxrt already doing a fairly good job from the silvlcultural point of view. There is uca±x rela tively little forest devastation in Maine, only small patches in the southern part of the state and in the pine country. In the northern part of the state where my work centered, there were places where they'd been cutting for three hundred k years and there was still a lot of forest left. .«* *i. V" ' , . ' V1-- FRY: Did you have anything A to do with water power in your job? DANA: No. Notkftng to do with water power or with fish and gaae, which pleased me. I had no desire to get into any of those fields. FRY: You had some research activities going on, didn't you? . .'u.-- .....''«. i.-»s« tuBDAKf 0mMV£ rm» us 3»» HMO HJt >mw Cfirf -!*«sri3l:X| fc-fs Ac F arfw ood»J «7W *3*t 1 5o JJ,fl «ri 01 - . *Tsd'.c , abrjB r Idnsi - , , B b»XlO£ ,£» in S;,• •..;•.; uaaaJt :f*i»3i»J :- !>,,^ - I - t] . . I . . • -• JOU' . . • . •ifw r - ab «fi .ji «aJbcxatxx£xjo: DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 62 anyway. Why should we help then out?* So then I went to the legislature and got «± legislation intorudced for reimbursing the timber land owners. That passed the legislature but was pocket-vetoes by the governor. So the timber land owners never did get reimbursed while I was there. For tunately after I left there were a lot og of good fire seasons during which the basic fund accumulated until it was possible to pay off the debt. FRY: Were ther other issues that involved your ag going to the legislature for help? DANA: Yes. About the time that we were having x&xx arguments with the governor about reimbursing the timber-land owners, he got the idea that some of the department's activities vkfuoi should be curtailed. He wanted to transfer the blister rust control to the Department of Agriculture and make other changes that I thought would weaken my department. After a special Ktgty study he had legislation introduced to accomplish these things. But I went to the cksxtafc chairman of the committee handling the bill in the H • se, who was a very good friend of my department, and suggested some amendments to the governor's bill. We got my chagnes approved by the Attorney General as far as the legal aspects were concerned. The major change was to abolish the title of Land Agent and to make the head of the department merely "The Forest Commissioner," which I felt would emphasize the forest aspects rather than the routine x land management aspects of the Job. The amendments also strengthened the department in one or two minor ways. The bill went through the legislature in its revised form and was signed by the governor. I was never sure he really understood what was in it, because ixxxmcy it very materially strengthened the department. FRY: Did they transfer the control of blister ix rust to Agriculture? **'.> .0- t;SH \43al ai$»r fc v • o, , r-,w *» 34fe '^3 .-id »d3 ab • • I > »c • toMUbf . >,«..•* Js.->s»ce a 7»3iA -• . • iMauuto • . • . 83 sat- ..nfi adT • I ' ' • . • DANA/MAUNDER /HRY Page 63 DANA: No. They left it right where it wa». One of the other thing* that we did early in my administration was to change the name •£ from the Department of Lands and Fore* try to the Maine Forest Service, with the emphasis on the word Service. That was a change the governor approved of very much. Another of my jobs as Forest Commissioner of Maine was to try to get enough* legislation to establish a forest experiments: station in the Northeast. It was federal legislation, and as Forest Commissioner of Maine I vas at liberty to lobby. MAUNDER: What was the nature of your efforts? DANA: They were almost entirely in the form of letters to members of Congress with an occasional personal call when I was in Washington on a trip; and secondly, in getting influential people in the Noctheast also to writ* to their representatives in Congress to get their support. Probably got the letters that I fax other pwdta people to «X*SK «±x write were at least as effective, orlikely more effective, than ray own direct efforts. I was just a minor part of the picture in getting that passed, • of course. MAUNDER: Do you recall any Congressman or Senator who seeradd most helpful to you in accomplishing these obejctives? DAXA: No, I don;t. MAUNDER: As I recall you had an article in the Journal of Fores tryr- DANA: That was part of the campaign to create a Northeastern Forest Experi ment Station. And MAUNDER: Ax you did such a good job that yo received the directorship of it! DANA: I'm not sure there was any connection. I was an ex-Forest Service man whom they knew pretty well anyway. The offer came at a time when it vas a bit difficult to decide what A to do. I also a had a chance to enter teaching at the same time, and I wasn't quite sure which field had the .enu r- !(..,.,»•: f *>'.,' r;'>.;3ii':'3 £ jrlaibi> tjc.- . •/••:;•.. ,. •, , . «3»*rfv • • .ar.-y a »**•»• -• I . ' • . . •:r* «f. :..':- : i:i»» ' ' • . ' .T.(|B5«9 Si ; . ™a£ • . DANA/MAUNDBR/FRY Page 64 greater appeal. I had, however, about decided that in my job as Forest Commissioner I'd learned enough of the political facts of life to last for some time. That is a job which I wouldn't have missed for anything in the workd, but which I wouldn't have kept indefinitely for anything in the world * either. FRY: When the station was established, you helped in determing the location, didn't you? DANA: Yes. The Washington Office made quite a search as to x where the headquarters would be located, and I helped in making the study. We selected the poa- silbilities, which finally boiled down to Amherst, where the Massachusetts State College was located, and secondly Worcester, where Clark College is located. Both institutions were willing to give us quarters to take care inclined ga of the work. I was a little ±HK*XK*XU to favor Worcester, partly, I'm afraid, for personal reasons. It seemed * little more convenient from my point of view to be there. But the official decision lay between a very strong department of geography at Clark with a great interest in the whole conservation field} amd Massachusetts Agricultural College at the State College, which put a very strong case through Processor Frank Waugh, head of the Department of Horticulture, who had worked with the Forest Service in connection with recreational development. He had a very strong personality, and he was able to sell the State College. FRY: What sort of facilities were you given? DAXA: I think during the entire period I was there the experiment station oper ated in one rimi/ room. I think we got something like xfcixx $30 to $35 thousand a year, probably, and two or three technical men, two or three clerks, and that was the whole station. FRY: What training did your technical men have? DANA: At that time I think it they were all Masters of Fore try from Yale. I J««0« &R r:a:_ Viu ft* :.n».: I *b.h>«fe .9BO . 7 i?-, :,tA,, • , t>» . : *»JMJ; an. dy«oft» feMnr. iSiroJtsfc: .-•IT ' vaW*t?:'aNK) - i; . '-,. If -W" ' SOJwt: aft a»t7 o»l3«>a *<13 • ./:-*« 6 t.iw.1 s> inaaV. • .: ' . M(2 i9itaA ••• • *ftW 3.' J . • I a *'• . . - . - • . . - . . » 3o . : -tol & as inww .loqqo TO a ^namae i c*r,» * 33*»r nors srii .i»rtJ MHT ;'UO ri; -ad .' »v*d t s«9 J«di B* ^9Bd »ri3 i *ri se . • oqx* TI aob BO a «» §oJ ••j*»:i f.8W -•• «•• lo j;:3li'vs J« •,IqO!'i< JtoM .m> a*». .' . • • .'ag-- fw . -a d£^: j i*io- a . . • e«ob 31 mnl* bsr -. *»v I . b I . da M ofU I •- -i »is*/ JBiJj »BM lujqla. •a-icA.jio if, ifif w)-ji erroJlBia . no t-d OU «• . BfcV ft »»00 J99B 03 B««t r T.f3(ij JQdUMfe II* oc . . . ij 8t*W a 3na;-. rgr, »J«j8 srij bet 6 s-r: ?d eno^jfii»? ' ffl a ]a«ni?»qx9 ! ^9 ne io Jni tqiao»d. n* DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Pag* 66 Council for the station including many representatives of industry. It was a public relations action as well as one aimed at making the research more effective. MAUNDER: How >x often did you call this Advisory Council into session? DANA: Twice a year. We always had one field meeting of two to three days' duration during the summer, and then we'd meet for one day in tne win ter somewhere to talk over what was going on and to discuss future plans. MAUNDER: How were the expenses oi such meetings carried? DANA. The members of the Council took care of their own expenses, which were minimal, virtually nothing except travel subsistence or a call. Those were the days when budgets for experiment statioas were nut vary lush. MAUNDER: Who were the men who were the most important contributors to the Coucnil's deliberations? DANA: I don't seem to k remember anybody except W.R. Brown of the Brown Com pany in New Hampshire, who was the first chairman and one of the most active in that km kind of progarm we were giving. Osborne Fornell was also one of the active members. There were two or three men from New York. MAUNDER: Are the minutes of the Concil meetings a matter of public record? DANA: Yes. I'm sure a complete file of those would be at the Northeastern Forest Experiment Center at Upper Darby/ nvw. MAUNDER: Perhaps copies might be in the National Archives as a part of the Forest Service. DANA: I would doubt that. I doubt if xkcxv they got away from the experiment station. MAUNDER: This mas not an activity for which you were responsible to make a full report to Washington. DANA: Yes, that's right. It was very largely a local activity; Washington was kept in touch with what was going on only in very general terms. • >J x*r'«ivfcA a «x bib oslto 9* woft-jJ '&X»b »9i -r* to gal)»M bisJkJ aao b»d ^ ^. .fMM; 6 •. •.!. *a« -."o-T JSHSB b'Mr ew»3«Jb ^ o »nlo 7»a agnU "./ .tMOftfM OWD ii»r11 lo «1»0 +. itfoO MU lo BlMlnMl MtT 7 . mlnif >q»Jt Jioa o jo?8 Mf3 lo OW018 J . -x» Mbo 3»OK *d3 lo MM bfiA as, JB'ili Ml •v llsatot »mrod«0 ^ •« m w*K (noil aec ••; •Terff rlduq 1 B9H3io>f or!.-! 3E «d bluow saori lo iq B as ef-v .iD-iA J»rc3 j»H *ri- ni *4 J-gie 8«^«O9 nqr IUA .OOiV7*8 nllftqxe sf'a noil VB-HA JO^ v.:!) — ~«ff 11 Jd«ot> I .ifir,- Jdiiob tJ. - »; I : M-1A a SJ(M oJ •Idlaaoqa*? ait : i3CB«JA: rf«»W OJ loq»T I itv ae { s»Y :AKAC .BfulSJ lB7&fls,j VT: , '--•'>§ djt* , :. . . U • . . " >-5i i - .»qa n*j, ,-rsJfc 3t:S«u»i.-qxi . f30o0 Mil '3 •A* . 3^ r- ' • 9 i" i»; > .ttu . hi»ifa •*) «w»w txni , . ;*t.a a. . : TSOMUW r, 3»»»t La3-tOlt«Jl.'o •'1 :AKAG b«wsn i • da* I MAd ,B- a ee o|j07 . ! I . b«» :l •-> -ova-r MO) •MNQMfe :<'- . rta v- :r ;• •,Jr!lY-r .IlcJ * dtfuc . : 4IQHUA^« . ' .»T'o .... ' '. . jli (Wl3 : , ' .iq .fntSWAH ., \KAfl . . ' • . -•»«•. 9^ • • ^^ : . . . . .J?sri ' DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 70 the federal government In this program, and we're not going to have It, however logical it is." That was that.' MAUNDER: You could never come to a meeting of minds *k*K with him on that score? D NA: Not on that, no. One of the committee members thought that we were getting a little heated in the arguments and tried to cool us off. fighting Freeley laughed and aaid, "Oh, don't worry. We've been ftgkxix for forty years." MAUNDER: The Clarke-McNary Act being a compromise between the positions of Pinchot and tk his followers and that of Greeley and his, was its writing a product of the hands of both Pinchot and Greeley? DANA: I don't k*x think Pinchot had much to do with it. I think it was handled primarily by Greeley and Kellogg with the cooperation of other members of Kellogg's Committee for a National Forestry Program. (It was an i entirely independent committee, organized largely by the tim- berland owners and wood-using indusgries with some other outside repre sentation, to try to work out a solution to the **• problem.) There was no question but that the Clarke-McNary bill was scrutinized k very thoroughly with suggestions from improvements by a large number of people, but I doubt if Pinchot was one of them. My guess is that the group felt that kkaaut they were meeting what objections Pinchot might have in the form they finally adopted, and it wasn't necessary to go any fur- ther than that. As for the strategy of getting the bill passed, I think that Kellogg did a large part of the work in lining up support from national organi sations of various kinds, all of which put pressure on Congress; while Greeley's activities were primarily directed at the congressional com mittee, with which he undoubtedly had great influence. He was on very - . '. MNI .IMBl.^ ,ra&; I I ~.a - :»^.{«oo B ' I . : . -••- -la tex} 9*^ & i • • - . • . - ; *aoK';. •«8 i« ygi &A allow sri* Xo • -».. . DANA/MAUNDER/RRY Page 71 close terms with that committee. My guess would be that Greeley wrote Senate Commit tee the bulk of the refcort Mu /••••! I >•• submitted when it brought the bill before Congress. Greeley traveld all over the country with that Senate Committee. * J At in informal gathering of the committee which I attended while I was Forest Commissioner of Maine, one of the Senators got to lamenting the fact that Maine was a prohibition state. He said, "My God, I'd like to see somebody drunk around this place." Greeley replied, "You'd like to see him in a mirror, wouldn't you?" So you can tell he was on pretty good terms with them. He was the master-mind and Kellogg was the fellow that jutUdfc pulled the strings and put it through. MAUNDER: Kellogg was a great tactician in handling that sort of thing, wasn't he? DANA: Yes. MAUNDER: How big a part did Kellogg play in the total picture in this period? DANA: Outside of the newsprint industry, I don't think he played a very active part in forestry affairs with* the one exception of his being the chiarman of this particular very influential committee. He was never very active in the Society. • > MAUNDER: What about another one of the veterans. Will Hall? DANA: I k never knew Will Hall very intimately, but my impression of him is - that he was an excellent administrator with a fine personality, an un usually good contact man in connection with public relations. It was in that connection that he played a very major part in getting the program under Weeks Act through. Ha later started the acquisitions jucagcnxioacu the act. MAUNDER: Ware xkuu there any real antagonists to this legislation of the twenties? DANA: I don't think so. SlO x: "Ifi ^.fove. , -;.ii< ".' ' 5 ' • •' : - -SA'C, i; 'i, t bfl - vdaSIOfc 1 '• • '^' uow . A *j " nlii ssi o ' bsi »tf »M V 3BJT.V1 . . '. -. I ! I9V90 • I -; oole- : I immxan&xm*^ sc.oi : . DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 72 FRY: When I talked to S.B. Show and read some of hi* old manuscripts, he occasionally metnioed that there had been problems along the line of cooperative fire protection where federal cooperation with a state was made difficult by a rather reticent state department of forestry. Is this common in your experience? DANA: No. In the early days some of the states, particularly in the South, were a little hesitant to install measures that the government thought were • necessary to justify financial contributions. But that's passed long ago. In recent years I think the relations in that field are ex cellent. DANA: In the eariler days there was considerable friction. States didn't want anyinter fere nee with what there were doing. The federal government insisted on higher standards than the states were silling to adopt and kfi kept putting the pressure on until the states moved up, as they did right along. FRY: Could you comment on what finally resolved the difficulties between the stated and federal governments? DANA: No one thing. They must worked until they got together. u__th*ng the otate togoolry_jJcparf«ents -pceia lu Vf pre tCy— rtrong umniF-Miiu.nl' ' H _Tg-la t j OHS *<> DANA: By the way, Clapp was responsible for keeping research out of the Clarke- McNary Act. The oringal draft of that act had included research, but •'tfcltJfc-. •&** 9t*«; . -«i sill ovjtr atttpw-j • ?«: . Mr ; - . • tso • . ' " •. *n . ' «>. . • . •JUM» »- . : fc»»M DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 73 he said research eould Just get lost in an omnibus act that had so many more controversial provisions. So he insisted that there be a separ ate act on research, developed finally into the McSweeney-McNary Act. Clapp was the author, of course, of the McSweeney-McNary Act. He put it through almost single-handedly. He worked with almost every bureau in the Department of Agriculture, just talking with people until he got them either to agree with his po nt of view or to cone to some compromise as to how things were going to be handled. He commented after i t was all over that he never would put through another till involving other agencies of the Department. He Had an awful time getting the ap proval of people like Entomology, Pathology, and Economics, the Weather Bureau and so on. FRY: Why? DANA: Well, other agencies had different ideas. They all wanted to go off on tangents, or at least what he thought were tangents. He wanted to tie the &am Forest Service into almost everything that was going on. Then he worked with the National Forestry Program Committee to get aii their support for it. They had given eg strongs support to the Clarke-HcNary Act four years before, and he got their support for this program too, which was a great help. But there was not quite the same pressure behind that act that there was behind the Clarke- McNary Act. I think it was felt that research was not a particularly controversial item and that if the Clarke -Me Nary got through witout too much difficulty the research act would follow along more or less automatically. That Judgment proved to be pretty well founded. FRY: Did you have anything to do with the McSweeeey-McNary Act? DANA: Yes. Zon talked to me a good deal about it, and I helped him in de ciding what to include in the act and then what phraseology to use. ."lift « ft bwf 'B .'•;•• ''fi •t' 33 •• .'I t : *{. . vr tq •• -^- a £• fttaar) HMi "';f. . . . . ' • . *1 I • & a«3fc-ar- SJ ' . 3 * E: H ' • • • ? j.;*-- .v«Mgfwf • . DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 74 Then shortly after I had been appointed Dean of the School of Forestry at the University of Michigan, in the winter of 1928, I presented a c case in behalf of the bill to a House ftommitee on the subject. Being no longer a member of the Forest Service, I was perfectly free to do it. It came about by accident, actually. At the last mincte the fellow who was going to present the case dropped out, and Roy Kellogg asked me to take his place. Just before I went on the floor Greeley saw me and said, "Sam, for God's sake, remember you're not talking to a bunch of students, but to some hard-boiled congressmen." FRY: And did you talk to theim like hard-boiled congressmen? DANA: Ou, yes. I talked up Jdw to them, but I talked to long. I came down with charts, and I guess I had too many of them. I'm always afraid I won't be adequately prepared and as a reeilt I'm almost always over- prepared in anything of this ttagx kind. So Kellogg had to cut ee ott. But I think I talked with adequate « vehemence. At any rate it got by. MAUNDER: In reading over some of your addressed to the Society in 1126 and 1927 I was struch by your statements regarding the lack of program and effectiveness of the Society at that time. Just how do you explain that dawax condition that existed in the mid- twenties? DANA: M The Society labored under two handicaps in my judgment. One was that it had no organization whatever. Even the President and the Secretary had to sponge on the organizations with which they were connected for stenographic -typist help. time had MAUNDER: All this *kc the Journal )UK been edited and published entirely on a voluntary basis. DANA: That's right. That was functioning on the organization with which the editor was connected. Au Zon used the Forest Service staff right along in all the correspondence and editorial activities. He got no help out of the Socety. I followed him, and I did the same thing. You see, these public ak agencies are usually • very good natured in g being '•i i<- . ' > ^IKfl f a UddT ' :«•; . : i4S'I3^ •> 93MT J «goC : • . '. ... ' . a , DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 75 willing to help out with xta situations of that kind, especially with scholarly kasxaxixx journals. The second handicap of the Society was that it had not established the poliyy of expressing its veiws on matters that were controversial in any way. Those two things, to me, greatly weakened our effectiveness. I felt we just had to have a centralized organization with a top class «»CT*gtioi executive rf secretary in charge of such clerical xkip help as he needed and that we must adopt the policy of letting our views be known of matters of importance to the profession, no matter how *w*"i controversial they might be. MAUNDER: Had either of these two • issues been discussed to any great extent in years prior to this? DANA: The matter of the EKuxttaxyxKktii secretaryship had received very ****** little attention. The natter of expressing our views on controversial issues had cropped up us occasionally but not formally. No attempts had x ever been made to reach a decision as to whether we should do 1C or not. It had virtually been up to the president to decide how far he wanted to go, and most of the presidents, what with the lack of any organization through which to work, list let things ride. MAUNDER: XKXB Where did H. U. Chapman stand in this regard? Was he a stron advocate for taking issue? DANA: Yes. MAUNDER: Some men that I have interviewed on the history of forestry have ex pressed to me the personal opinion that H. H. Chapman has a certain pug nacious streak in his character which wnwant sometimes propels him to participate in controversy just for the love of the battle. Do you think there's anything to k this? DANA: I don't think there's very ranch. I think he gets mixed up in scraps :' -,. - .. . • <.',; i-,lo»i:>r .. Slit 3COM «ff »•' •fqx» to rv-t-i • • *c ; • . • ntgtittM »ji" l •> MUtB»> WO' :»!Z-.j»vyrjffutv • -. : .KAU .: •. ' • baqqo I . • • 03 |»»-.-, nolJM: JBWX : !«3»>OVb» : 90 »POc . . . ^ . . •-» 04 b: KMLtXMO* SMUXS »S y»t ds : • ; . : DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 76 ordinarily only where he clinks there1* a matter of real principle involved. He doesn't get into the scrap merely for the sake of gz fighting. MAUNDER: He's the kind of forceful personality who would make itz friends or make enemies very easily and very quickly. DANA: That's coreect. There are people who don't like him as well as people wbo do, but in general x he commands the respect and support of the profession as a whole. There's no doubt he commands a very large following * in the tmrnimj Society which consistently supports the * variou activities that he has recommended. One of his K moat con spicuous contributions has been the forcing of the policy of accredit ing schools of forestry. He made the first uut study of accreditation, which set a BXBJUQI* precedent that has been followed very consistently ever since. MAUNDSR: Who were some of the other leading people in the Society who took a strong stand on the question of the Society's speaking out on con troversial issues? DANA: Theonly one that I remember very specifically was Walter Mulford of the University of California who preceded me as president of the So ciety and who mas very anxious to keep the Society out of controversial questions. MAUNDER: How did Greeley feel about this matter? DANA: I think Greeley felt that the Society should be active in policy Bat ters even if it disagreed with him. BAUNDER: How would you apprais the Society's role in the total picture of American forestry since the development of a fully staffed organiza tion? DANA: I think it's become much more influential as a result of setting up a strong central staff .and- of organicaing the Society both geographi cally aiid 4*ju*uUjBul-rnalteB -groups s*3 .". :• •. . *j rvHiriir ffj e» •>. r, :;»&ok a8- •"'•.be'.- • •• '5 *8 :. re* bi. : trror- I . 399*0* I Illl !!••>•:. : .»jtarft »ri3 «J: X gfi- ••iftlv J «»70) 1© itmaiMq A ^s. . . *»8 «•• . .W n«tr ; ;a;>.: ; .- • . . ' ^.''•: • •in I 1^007.1 i-. .a :-s* DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 77 cally and by subject matter gxxp groups, or keeping a considerable num ber of special committees active all the tine, and of establishing semi annual meetings of the entire Council. All of those things have helped to focus its activities on important natters and have made it a much more influential force than was previously the case. I think the semi annual ""»**B* meetings of the Council are especially important in gat- ting a clear-cut and fairly stable direction. MAUNDER: To what extent *• do you think the Society has become the real major forum for discussion in formalation of policy? DANA: Both the Society of American Foresters and the American Forestry As sociation particpate in efforts to direct policy, but I would distin guish a little between their fields of influence. The American Forestry Association has much wider distribution of its journal and the much larger number of members. The ftsntantg Society of American Foresters probably has no influence with the general public. On the other hand, I think the Society of American Foresters commands a greater respect amend local legislatures, departments of conseraation, and ftnrtmrEg Congress than the American Forestry Association probably does. MIUNDER: This is u of course part due to the fact that the Society has the local chapters and the regional sections in active work. Can you think of KBB some of the ways in which the section here in Michigan makes itself felt? DANA: I can think of a couple of thins that our local section has done. One of them was to formulate and lobb$ through legislation providing for the registration of foresters. Another one* was to identify and de fine all of the forest types in the region and formulate tko* rules of forest practice that were recommended for the management of these different types. Those were very specific things and, I think, quite helpful. ?<-;•• •• 3 $r; • ' . "„ .-. •• •»*hlr>- b<* ' •>MH «gi-jmiM» .? • : - iXJl-^.i £ • »«*" ''SJIgXiMt f ' • •;3 x-: • ' • D AHA/MAUNDER/FRY Pag* x78 MAUNDSR: Did this section's action in those two areas signal the national movement along this an same line in other regions? DANA: To a very considerable extent. MAUNDE&: Who among your section people have been most active in this work? DANA: I'm not sufficiently in touch with the section recently to be able to tell you that. My general impression is that you'll find quite a con siderable group actifre — usually ten x to fifteen people rather than just one or two. private MAUNDER: The Society does tend to bring public and xtxxxtx forestry more and more into friendly contract with one anohher, doesn't it? DANA: I think so. MAUNDER: You mentioned to me in Ax discussion earlier that you felt that the foresters as a group have not yet impressed upon the public xkx their professional status. DANA: That's true. I don't think that gx forestry xx is generally recognised by the public or by other xxxx professional men as being a high-grade profession in the sense that medicine, law, and KX engineerings' are, for •x instance. That's ax in large part because the general public and even many landowners don't know what a forester actually does. We're still regarded in many quarters as either fire fighters* lumberjacks, or tree xx planters. Those arex about the only things the average par son associated with a forester, and they don'e require any real in tellectual capacity or any intensive professional training. So the average person doesn't see at all why you need a four or five year college course. MAUNDER: Of course forestry, in this xaxxx country, is only fifty or sixty years old as a professionxt. With such a short life it hasn;t really matured to the point where it really has a feeling of long establishxi- ment; it's not too x well grounded in its own historical past. Don't -«t; »:iJ . -JF. . : 4DOA ** ituoY (MMHi aiflf ifJBHBAM l»ll .. : . .-: • ' IAQ ..- -. . i»3 g *iOCT»»l : » « . •- K Jjoc »ao^a« not . 10 . KJCXSX . : , ... , E an i. > eifi«^ . .a« osfcautv -.-• a o«3 JOR i. DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 79 you feel that this is a fact? DANA: Ch yes, I think that's true. And I also think that foresters teera- selves have weakened their position with the general public by taking the attitude, in general, that the major activity in which they're in terested is production of wood. They've ignored other products and services from forest land so that the public does not recognize foresters as being land managers but rather timber growers. I think we've got to get a braader concept across within our own ranks as well as tkc to the general public before we have the acceptance that we need. do MAUNDER: To what extent *• A you think the forest products industries are responsible for creating that impression? DANA: I don't believe they're as responsible as the foresters themselves are. I think if the foresters themsleves had taken a broader attitude years ago and had pushed it strongly, then the general public iwaUk would have bought it in spite of any reaction on the part of the timberland owners. And, of course, the timber land owners themselves are now becoming much more interested in the other aspects of forestry than they have been pre viously, particularly in recreation and watershed protection. MAUNDER: Where do you find this most in evidence? DANA. In the Northwest primarily. MAUNDER: Any companies in particularl DANA: Weyerhaeuser, Crown-Zellerbach, S mson Logging Company are all out standing in that direction. These interests are developing everywhere, but in companies not quite so prominently as/these three/in the Northwest. MAUNDER: Are there any particular men in those companies that you've mentioned that seem to have the vision of this thing more than others? DANA: Oh, I think fellows like Fred Weyerhaeuser, Lionell Webel in Weyerhaeuser; Ed Stampp of Crown-Zellerbach; George Drake of Simson; Paul Dunn of St. Regis. Down South people like Frank Heyward and Lew Porter have the same " **«•:• . B>dP B:»*»«&:r ' .: !1 • ,33V • gfttrfA jg Sif! :<-"/« ODj^Jfcf ;>n ->» oi ,«bi, arfJ . Mlosob»7 jon «*ob ortl :*6«h Ok ba»I 3«»^oi •»*! C«oJhrtfi8 d n«|SOMI I as JOlk ut ii»w no MJBBJ nv/:> -i/o • aswV:.; -isbaftv.; » - s. q;»»« «fl3 ovtrf cw »ioH«f oliduq 1 679*88 i «nr» « q Ja»w»l ttfc Ji Wt 9«»3X« : .flQWOAM I3»»»o %o5 e .a»i ,r- • : *v»il*d ' .KM .' bM( «*V- •VI. . '»B .rtMvo t-r •;-.;'• i>-. »»iqa b'ftA 9<} svr b»38»v lOff .; tarts* ^acmuAH ;>1 al 7«o3 golg •/a .inlqo •: • aaftd. ' jrj«« evViov JU'.'j &9*nft^BD9 9eod3 ai a£ 3ieib tfx/. • "»**»*•<'** T««ye»ite»y«W -'-HAG . ' 8 *> >v': DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 30 interest. It's becoming pretty general. MAUNDER: Weren't you, in fact, recently working on the problem u of forest land and recreation with the Outdoor Recreation Resources Review Board? DANA: Yes. But this commission was not donfined to forest lands at all; it dealt with all lands outside of municipalities--the range lands, for instance, tiucmauty and the awaters of the United States, and desert land. It was established by Congress. There were four members each from the Senate and the House appointed fry the Senate and the House, and seven members appointed by the President. Most of the congressmen at tended very few meetings and did not take an active part in delibera tions at all. All of the presidential appointees came mqt very regu- s bowed great interest, larly, participated actively, and MXBK xkariUxxcxxi MAUNDER: Who were the leaders? DANA: From Congress I would say Senator Anderson from New Mexico; Al Ohman from flngXB Oregon; and John Salem from Pennsylvania were the real leaders. ?m««*r«?« Senator Newburg/ was extremely helpful from the be- gining. Bernei Orell was a very stron member of the commission. A very competent individual. He is a remarkable man in expressing him self clearly and briefly. I was one of the most obstreperous mem bers, I'm afraid. I managed to stir up more arguments than most people. FRY: Cver what issues? DANA: The outatadding one was on whether activities in this field in the federal government should be centered in the Department of the In- there cerior or whether fctey should be a separate commission that reported only to the President and 6ongress. We had some very hot arguments about that. I favored that latter approach, but it was voted down on the gunqi grounds that it was txk thoerecically a fine idea but it •••"i ' - su'-- • • • •-. • , ,y tflBCBIUAh :'1V-.»0»S.: . ; . . • • . n aev iK».laei 4 u t>i! ..- B»T « , ^fcnnadHiA . . -. ... . • . od$- . i aiarfuttv -M tre:< . life • JOHtSt : . . • •.MU. . ; •A^ndr or : ^BHXt . ' •a*«tSX»9 "T9V . 30 . . M iaav«VOj( i' bi . • DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 81 couldn't be done because Coggress just wouldn't approve of it. So we ended up recommending a bureau in the Department of the Interior, the Bureau of Outdoor Recreation. Another question was whether recreation activities should be fia nanced by earmarked funds or by general appropriations from the Treasury. I favored the latter very strongly, and that finally did get approved by the Commission, but it didn't get by legislation. The bill that $ms provided for the Land and Water Conservation Fund, which was approved this last Congres, provides entirely for use of earmarked money. FRY: I've heard intimations from Interior men n that the O.R.R.R.C. was influenced too heavily by Forest Service members. On the other hand, I've also heard one or two specific complaints from Forest Service people who thought that it might have been influenoe too much by pro- Interior members. I'd be interetsed in your evaluation of this. DANA: I don't think it was over-influenced by either group. FRY: Do you think then that issues which did not have much relevancy to the Interior-Agriculture rivalry were the major issues? DANA: Yes. Ineerior versus Agriculture came up occasionally, and Senator Anderson, in particular, would occasionally raise the question of how what we were talking about wka would affect the Forest Service: I'm gonne make sure that they don't get injured in anything we've proposed." However i'ts very seldom the question came up. The Forest Service I think was a little bit hesitant about our appointment of the Deputy Director of Research from the Interior Depart ment, Larry Stephens. I think nobody from the Forest Service was put on the commission staff, and there were two or three others in the In* terior Department that were put on. So that, superf ically, the Forest Service may have a better case for criticiam than the Interior Department does. Juow «»fe.»d 3 'obi) oo :i-7 ftl WWJO* •• IMWMHn tMftb0».mtefc:. . '•' MMniftt . t. ; -r^iMMiw ..nw jjolJauup Tsjiaw^ ... ,.,..• .1 3iU . -il«J«» , ..i, i7£^ . . . ' • • ' : • : P a sd*m Mrnog . , • I • J8»»-^ «i3 t «. DAHA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 82 FRY: I don't know what the case was for Interior's complaint. DANA: I doa;t either, unless they thought that Mr. Orell and I were tools of the Forest Service. We were under suspicion in the beginning by being just plain foresters. Foresters were not supposed to be inter ested in «nyt*htng«x anything but saw log porduction. They kept josh ing us for some tine about taut how narrow were were, but I think we finally convinced them that we were justa as broad as they were. On one occasion they were discussing somebody as a possible addition to the staff. I guess they asked Orelljs opinion, because he said, "I'm not saying anything about him because he's a forester." I laughed and said, "That's why I'm for him. Obviously he must be a very g bread individual if he's a forester." FRY: Do you think the Forest Service's recent interest in recreation repre- setns a change in policy? DANA: No. I think the Forest Service has been rather outstanding in fol lowing a consistent policy all the way through. FRY: When did multiple use policy come in? DANA: There was legislation way back in 1915 authorizing the leasing of sum mer homes on national forests. Even back of that there was one in 1897, before the Forest Service was created, ahat authorized the use of for ests for recreational purposes and other • specific thiggs. Then in the middle 1920's, the Outlook criticized the Forest Service for go ing too deeply into ourdoor recreation: "They're neglecting their main job." So there's nothing new about this. It's simply that the For est Service didn't develop fast enough^ to keep up with the time, in my judgment. I think it was slow in recognizing • in the 1950 's that recreation ha would come to such relatively greater importance than it had had previously. But from my point of view the Multiple Use Act does not make any change whatever in the things that the Forest Ser- .-! : 10 I : ! U . . - , fi*»oa ' . E ' 8 : . • -W- . - . 1 : luodi .•• ' .. . 6 DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 83 vice has long been able to do. It's just that the Service felt very strongly that the legal recognition of additional activities would greatly strengthen their position, particularly with reference to any compet ing agency. PRY: In land policy would you say there's been any change inthe question of mining on the national forests? DANA: The policy has k always been to permit the development of mines where there was a valid discovery, outside of x wilderness areas, but to try to prevent the development of fraudulent claims, particularly for rec reational purposes, which has always been a favorite device. The dif ficulty has been to keep up with the prospectors. The law, until it was modified in about 1950, gave the prospector all the advantages. There wasn't anything you could do it he could find even a trace of mineral. He co Id hold onto the land indefinitely without trying to patent it. FRY51 What about aldn management? Would you say there's been no change in policy on things like cooperative fire protection or the advent of more wildlife management? DANA: I think there have been differences in degree, that's all. I don't see any basic change in policy. Of course, there was a row in North Carolina at one time over whether the Forest Service or the state should central the removal of game from the national forests. The courts finally settled it x in favor of the state. FRY: And did the Forest Service proceed, then, to use this ta as a basis for its policy in other states? DANA: Oh yes. change in policy, You might think wilderness theory constituted a KkxggBxtxxaix but I don;t think so. I think that the Forest Service just didn't get *>a )[ • .• !il 38' Ml I - i >* - • • • • ' . . JBqf : ' ra*mgc: : . . • . - . 31 .. j xlKpri; jKjxr. , DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 84 around to doing anything about it until the early 1920's, but then it hadn't been a controversial issue up until that tine. After the For est Service established the first wilderness area they kept right on . establishing them as soon as they found areas that they felt qualified for the purpose. They keep modifying the boundaries, and the frequently take out timber areas for commercial use that some people think v *ad . gv *ad v . shouldn't cone out. But there's no change of policy in that. It's just the same msx± old multiple use/ idea. FRY: Does the type of con»ervationis epitomised by the Sierra Club member ship have any influence on Forest Service policy or on lumber operators and owners? DANA: Oh yes, I think so. They have an irritating influence, anyway; they ' make us foresters mad. But I tkxxl think maybe they a have some in fluence on actual practice of private timbermen. It's a matter of pub lic relations, however, not a determinig influence. MAUNDSR: Now you became Dean of the Forestry School at the University of Michigan in 1923. I would like to get your opinion of Filibert Roth, -\ .. < ; §§T» who was your predecessor. DANA: Unfortunately I never knew hin at all well. I had only met Roth a few t±aduL times before I came to the University of Michigan, and he died a couple of years before I made the move, so my knowledge of him is »:>>:; c'» essentially second hand. But from all I hear from «xxx saucy everybody that lot did know him he was an outstanding personality. I think he's unquestionaljry the most repsected teacher of forestry that we've ever had. He was able to present things clearly, simply, and forcefully; and * at the same tine he had a magnetic personality that made the boys simply adore him. This was indicated, of course, in the epithet that l» > • ; ; «• • ••••-.- h* • . they applied to him. He was know universally, even to his face, I think, it al i s«.jp ni » t» *ri:t - >'.T! aiJi a r • .-o -.•esifflo: J a* nooa «» g;. eil. Jbdm t« '^ ^\3 MO io i» at!\u,..- ;. .; . . ,1 to a^.j,, iivl^q . a »DBO ^i all w -i»»ol s. : : Ji»di .i»g oj uow I oi :q ti.B , 1 a mlr. vairt 7»v»f/ I x-fa^s: : USAQ 8961.1: sj^ini i ^i •' -. 3 & ila f»07a 3u8 b fcf JmrfJ 9V« i Y-38*'0^ aaiq t eaw ai . X-iJif' A bed _, .^a i-riJ 3« z bnt ..w BifH1 .siln R-J. 1 a is.i - ... , . . ifof..: CBW ah .0; DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 85 as "Daddy Roth." • •;•- *•: • f I.. . I triad to recontruct bothk his career and personality in an articla I K wrote a few years ago, "Filibert loth, Master Teacher," which wuc seems to me to describe his accomplishment as effectively aa anything could. He had done previous work as an investigator in wood technolo gy and as the director of the activities of the Ceneral Land Office on the national forests, but his record in those fields ta is nothing like . the impression he made here as a teacher. MAUNDER: Did you use Roth's papers in researching that articla? DANA: There are practically no papers. I used all that was MX available in the University Archives, but he kept virtually nothing that he wrote or that people wrote to him. What little material we've been able to get was by asking the alumni that received his correspondence what they had kept. Now there must be historical materials somewhere in the Nati nal Archives of activities in the Beneral Land Office. But it might be very difficult to find out mfc* what Roth was personally responsible for and what people in the organisation actually did. The Forest Ser vice may also have something in its archives. But Roth's major contri butions were as a teacher here at the University of Michigan, and I'm sure I've just about exhausted everything xn± relating to that period. MAUNDER: He left his stamp rather imtttt indeliby upon the profession as it's gone forth from this institution. ,_ DANA: Especially through the boys that he sent forth. He K always referred to them as "his boys'.1 There was a real father relationship between him and the students. He was the School of Forestry at the University of , Michigan while he was w here. MAUNDER: Tell me a little bit about what you had in mind when you came here. What were your ideas for developing a program of forestry education? ..! . I t-i . • i !r>-. • / j .-•• • DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 86 This DANA: I came as a very naive educator. AKxy»nvpMk»kfryidpT»reV""'ry**fr*g was the first time I'd ever been on the faculty of an educational institu- tion, BO that I had a lot to learn. I think that I had two really basic ideas. One of them was to broaden the scope of the school so that we would cover all the products and services of the forest rather than emphaslzigg wood alone, which was the reason 6or changing the name of the unit to the School of ordstry and Conservation and later to the School of Natural Resources. The second ambition was to emphasise graduate work, which had received relatively little attention up to that time at any of the schools of forestry. I rather doubt whether any Ph.D. in forestry had been given prior to 1927, and I was much pleased that two of the first students that came after I arrived at Ann Arbor came purposely to get Ph.D. degrees. Those were Dick McArdle, now Chief of the Forest Service, and Robert K. Winters, who's in chagge of taking care of foreigners who come to the United Statesc on behalfl of the Forest Service. I think my general attitude was one of experimentation. I figured that we ought to try new things constantly, and my guess would be that we have carried on more experiments than almost any other school in the country. We;ve tried all kn± kinds of degree and curriculum require ments aad so on. We've also very much surprised students who come to us from other institutions by treating each student as an individual rather than as one of a group to whom all rules apply. To a consider- that able extent we've had the attitude txkx rules are made to be broken when the occasion ariese, so that the evolution has been an experimen tal one. But it has continued to emphasize the two things that ap- pealed to me most when I came- -namely, breadth of coverage and empha sis on high quality graduate work. io : an . ':/ .1 . ea^l :.' a *• . , ' : . ! . . DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 87 taper tance ftae other thing that I didn't realize the iajwxxfciwe of when I arrived kx&xtkx* (but I did shortly thereafter) was the need of making & the School of Forestry and Conservation an Integral part of the Uni versity and not simply the appendage which I found it had been up to that ,v time. The department was vitually Independet of the rest 6f the insti tution. I spent more tine attempting to make the School of Forestry resources and Conservation a part of the University which used all the ««mMii of the Universlth than on any other one thing. And I think on the we 've whole t*n been pretty successful in doing that. MAUNDER: What resources of the University did you particularly w. seek to make use of when you came here? DANA: I'd say botany, zoology, geogogy, economics, political science, busin ness administration, law. Later on we found a lot of contacts In the School of Public Health. In general, our connections were with the social and the physical and biological sciences. We never did get quite as close to the humanities as I would have liked to. MAUNDER: I notice that you left out the historians. DANA: That's rather odd in view of the fact that that's my major interest personally. That's an accident that I didn't mention it, because we always have had pretty good relations with the Department of History. History We have graduate students in the Department of ttixxafcxji who have taken their Ph.D. work in the iwcnt general field of fore try and ax con- *•• ' servation. We developed combined curricula with the School of Business Admini stration and the Institute of Public Adminstaation and also with the School of Education. We've had studaats who have taken degrees that would cut across departments, such as biology and forestry, instead of being essentially in either one. . i6 •V. 1^ f> «i">rr IH'tTlfi ••.vo^t !•- ;tf6«: . ;:..-•- ' . . ' ' • - , . . . ' ' DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Pgge 88 MAUNDER: Lots of joint committees sitting on oral examinations. DANA: Those always have represntatives of other KKXK units on them. University Library? MIUNDER: How have you worked with the »«"*««**«B«iiKyxitk«x*h« arrived DANA: When I amttmar there was no Forestry Library, just a few books on for estry over in the gum general library. One of the first things that I did was to move that over into this building as a separate library and get an indepdent forestry librarian)** — by independent I mean one whose sole job was XKKXK running the forestry Library under the di rection of the general Librarian. The forestry librarian reports to the director of the University Library as far as library matters are concerned, but Hfc she would report to us with respect to acquisitions, indexing, and so forth. We have a iu fund for acquisitions over which we have KHUMHKH complete Miuxaa control, so that we're somewhat an autonomous HHXX unit in the University Library as a MfcxiB whole, which fact gives un the advantage of expert library supervision and at the same XXHBK time great freedom in determining what we want to get, how we NX use it, and so forth. MAUNDER: Is your xxkax library budget, then entirely independet of the Uni versity Library budget? DANA: No, it's part of the University Library budget and not of the School of Natural Resources. Some years ago we combined the forestry library (which by that time had become Natural Resources) with the Natural Secten Science Li brary. They're in the same quarters now and under the direction * of the same ftxaart branch librarian. That combination proved very effec tive. MAUNDER: What about your program for Latin Americans? How did that turn out? oo .,! j'-v riJMttol OB H adbutt •lib o "W bib I . A.Jr.J7B-U< -i V j , ,;:. . ->fcuj d* 3S% L.OB »fol 9. JOUUb-: •. SttOlitf r, j&aat I • -^s^ . / »u* JC: . " S! • .'-Ht • 6V.. . .i»bo I BXI&XXU. «tm»t- »w :^i-.% r A juuu; «uoaoauju« si .. Mhdbt •, ''•V XK »W joattk :»V ' . H tao3»d t>»d » »w fcns •:•?-.« ai- ^i.-iwosJi ac . DANA/MADNDER/FRY Page 89 DANA: Well, that was a pure accident. During the Second World War I was a member of a committee that was attempting to publicize the vn war issues for the benefit of the students and townspeople. We got various speakers to talk about different aspects of the whole situation, and among other* we got a man in charge of the Division of Cultural Rela tions in the Department of State, who discuessed our relations with he Latin America. Some weeks/ after t was here, I happened to meet him on a street car in Washington. Neither of us was a praticularly talka tive individual, and the conversation lagged. I racked my brains for something to talk about. I finally said, "Why doesn't the Department of State undertake a prggram to send some men from Latin America to study forestry at the University of Michigan? It would be an excel lent cultural relations move. They have practically no foresters down there." He said k*K he'd think it over. So I reminded him of tg it shortly, and it wasn't very long before we came to an understanding that they would put KB up enough money to send twenty Latin American students for a two-year program. We started out with this two-year program, and they continued it for another two years with ten men, but since them we've had to get along on our own with what help we could get elsewhere. I remember in our first groi-p a man from Uruguay, who graduated with distinction. He was the only man in the class who did. I was in terested at the Congress in Seattle recently to find that several of the men from that first group are now the heads of their units down in Latin American countries Bfcdtk or the chief es of the delegation at meeting in Seattle, flu Out of 65 folks from other countries who have planted trees in the International Frienshpp Grove, five of them are Latine Americans who are Michigan i alumni/ dating back to this ori ginal program. • •t11* ««W 1xv i3uO1M* 3fH ^oV 8- • : . ' i ib-.iv| I . . . a** b u • , • . . • . ; : :. . DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 90 MAUNDER: Did you have u to make any serious adjustments in the course of study for theu? DANA: No. We didn't adjust the studies, but we made the students spend considerable time at the English Language Institute, laarning to* speak and understand English a little better. But we figured forestry is forestry • in South American as well as North America; we were teaching fundamental principles rathen than the application of those principles. MAUNDER: The Conference of Executives of Forestry Schools held in Ann Arbor in 1945 resulted in setting up the Council of Forestry School Executives. What were the factors leading up to the establishment of this Council and what were its aims? DANA: Simply a feeling of need among the group to get together and talk over mutual ax£k problems and see how they could be helpful to each other; along what lines they might adopt morenoc or less uniforms policies; and in general, swap information and ideas. We simply felt there was a need to do it. MAUNDER: Did you take some lead in getting that together? DANA: Oh, ues. I called the group together and made the proposal. I think the first meeting simply decided to meet again, and at the next meeting they organized formally- -deciddd to make it permanent and fcuc elected of ficers. I was the chiarman of it. MAUNDER: What do you feel have been the most important contributions to come out of this council? DANA: I don't think you can put your finger on anything specific. What has happened is that each Dean has got new ideas and feone back to his own , school and put them into effect as far as he thought they applied. MAUNDER: What lay behing your reorganization of the School of Forestry fin 1950? '.R . 'nl.jf- *i< . :3ii B • .• : : • . I : : '\HAU • ! . : : I . . DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 91 DANA: Our move to a ah School of Natural Resources was preceded In 1949 by a study •£ by a committee of outsiders to size up what they thought •£ our strengths and weaknesses were and make recoomdedations where we •g ought to be going. That committee was of x five people, headed by Greeley; the other members were McArdle, Ovid Butler, Mulford of California and Henry Schmidt of the University of Mianesotar-quite a distinguished group, but they needed a chairman like Greeley to get results. He kept bringing them* • down to earth. MAUNDER: What led to the appointment of this consultant committee? DANA: Well, it was primarily our feeling that every organization needs an outside check every once in a while, or it's apt to get into a rut. We also knew that there had recently been a similar study in the School to have produced of Architecture, which seemed to me/a very constructive report. When I proposed to the provost that we do the same xxm thing, he said that was BXH fsfx O.K. if we wanted it, but he wanted to see what other universities «sat needed it more. We went right ks ahead anyway. MAUNDER: Who selected the members of this committee, and on what basis were they chosen? DANA: They were selected by our faculty with the approval of the provost. He made on change in our original suggestions. Than I wrote letters to the members of the committee invitigg them to serve. MAUNBER: Did you pay these men their expenses, some honorarium or what? DANA: We paid their • travel and subsistence expeases on obth trips, plus one honorarium* of $500 apiece. MAUNDER: How long did this study go on? DANA: It covered a period of some two or three months. We asked each mem ber of the committee to come xxavg alone for two or three days to ac quaint himself with the situation, and then the whole group came back together for another three or four days, swapped views and agreed on ' •' •:-«?: n q sv}; • I i V./.a.H' • T;^ r>': ' fit MMoH**«r r-bc MfogcrttMa iruo , ila*- &«. n»»d«w» , -»iwr!(0 i* .;b.<(Dri3« yar;*H baft ftintoillsia ss .K j j.rfj galXwtl , iv •••« € SV3-' n\a& or- bso«»a j *.*?. M»& ' »04« • xStt CM v aM , «ir>Ja J iU I : )Jt ,li«W : t£$3 i'i- . Mtrf 0»i* .,*»•„ »o3MsiA So MV .««..• / : n,-' OffcJ'5: • >Tq«ffl -• f aj ••7 I rrs.*il' .e --».>; ir-nv '. StrfJ Ttr. ' attee t}3£s»rt«wpt« tturfs •«• •••iU • aft «»%«« . • . ..• . • >&i3 «JtD S»ri.J 03 o« vbt.-ur. eiri -ooi wuH :*S>. w." £SI»3 lo fcoi'/aq * b»,:siv «\'*e .v fHMhl «MMr O.? . rt« awslv ?-•- DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 92 a final report which was *u tentatively drafted before they left, put into final shape by Greeley, signed by all of the members, and then submitted to the President of the University. I think maybe I was optimistic enough to expect a rather favorable Instead they account of our activities. Uwx made some rather drastic suggestions with respect to the desirability of modifying our durriculum offerings, broadening the scope of the work and particularly strengthening the graduate work. It was mostly critical, a very helpgul report, which I published, incidenatlly, in History of Natural Resources Activities here. We immediately appointed committees to study each one of the fields in which they had made recommendations and modified some of our pro grams of study and some BK of our extnesion work and research on the basis of their proposals. We changed to the School of Natural Resources in 1950 primarily because of two events which occurred shortly there after. One of them was the fact that the head of the Department of f • Zoology asked me why the work in Kisheries Management that was being given in zoology should not be given in the School of Forestry and Con servation. I toltt him I thought it should be/ and that some fifteen years earlier I had tried to get it iwthout any luch whatever. Well, hix he thought it was a good idea. The other thing was that the Charles Lathrop Pack Foundation about the same time gave * us a grant of $100,000 dbt to emphasize our work in the broader aspects of conservation, in developing generalists as well as specialists, particularly from the schools, po nt of view of education in the ufcutsjt* And those two things coming together broadened the scope of out unit so that we wanted to change the name stautix* simulaaneausly. 3HT . :•••• 'I ft _«!«*« 3l IH^Iti-iBU, ... £>J. ,n SH7l ? MKkft dt>Mi *pMtf - • • ' uixi«»- . • • ' •• MHHI . • . .. . . I I . , . -.Jtf ,, • .... rt &9o. . - DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 93 MAUNDER: Then the establishment of the School of Natural Resources was not a direct outgrowth of the evaluation report and the subsequent work that was done by yourself and the faculty committee? DANA: No. I'd say It was more the result of the * other two Items — the grant from the Pack Foundation and the transfer of work In fishery management from Zoology to Foresty and Conservation. The Influence of the committee report, as xxf far as reorganization goes, was rather Indirect. The thing would not have come to a head on the basis of that report alone. MAUNDER: ffli The concept of the school was more or less your own, was It not? DANA: Yes, that's right. MAUNDER: What was the aga general reaction to the department here? You say you had good cooperation from Ecology and Botany. DANA: Yes. The change greatly improved our standing on campus. The only ob- jections came from the alumni, some of whom were afrlad to make forestry appear to ve relatively less important than previously was the case. MAUNDER: Are you overcoming that feeling on the part of the alumni? DANA: Some of it still exists. I think not as much as there was, but it still exists. I don't think it BKXX exists within the rantxk faculty. Several times I have brought up the question specifically: was it a mistake from that point of view and wtosuM should we consider going back? The answer is unanimously "no." Even the head of the Department of Fore try doesn't feel that he's laboring under a disadvantage be ing a unit in a larger organization. There was some objection on the part of the students to abolishing the wjsxk word "forestry" as part of a bachlor's degree. The four-year men like to be laveled as foresters even though we claim that they were •I ••F~ «' U "'••''• OY vrf 'tr6 asw 3* Tf a- i rrl >b i sstol •' .' /go foorx » • >-9 e -t as , :». fcM'1 •MMH MM Jcn.,v. > MfT J» :' . GFfflfe: . •n»» »jj» ••»!• -tn*.- '•^ . *wjr<|»i. rtg s^iir • a ; i .-, • . »R' ; ay .»tf. : lo orso?; :AMAO - . ... » j ... ... • gnJ fr, '. s r> i il • a,' (ti WHe« MNT »78/fT ... JV 4fUK,' - • r. DANA/MAUNDER/FRY Page 94 not fully trained professionally. But that's dying out too. FRYL Do you students with the Master of Forestry degree take any different type i of job when they get out than do the Bachelors of Science? DANA: No. They usually get a little § better salary, however — two or three hundrdd dollars more the first year. Theoretically they stau^iibcga k should go on to better positions in later life, but there's never been an adequate study to find out whether they do or not. MAUNDER: Hs the School of Natural Resources influenced/ the general field of forestry education in this country? DANA: Well, it's a little hard to pint to any concretes: evidence, but I think that it must • have had some influcen. There's been a considerable broadening of the curriculum at places like Uftaix Utah State Univer sity, Colorado State University, and Montana State University, but it's hard to tell whether those «*• are simply simultaneous develope meats or nkJui whether we've had some tirttmram influence in connection with them. MAUNDER: Has the School of Natural Resources continued to broaden in re cent years? I'd say that we've continued to develpp. DANA: /There's been no shock in our activities like the one i in 1950, but there's been a gradual move toward a broader field all the time. One of the most recent evidences of that is getting a half-time man who would devote his attention to mineral resources, not so much the \ technology of minerals or the utilization of minlerals as to their \ fm ja. place in our economic and social life: what part does the min- eral industry play in the nation? We've gradually been developing a jqt of broader point of view sac the place that natural resources pley in*k the regional planning picture, and the new man who is emphasizing min eral resources will go farther in that direction than we have thus far. • o. »* 4o ***«»«&: ob rts/i-J 3 MO js. ;!»:» d- >d • »I3J1I a Ja« viJ»L-»u ^erfT^ 4§. ao«m«^c i«Jaj»rf «* no o <* it •,n 10 I ?*b«iv 3UO «M»»b« as ai» w«8 «U UMMullfiJt MOVMCtfi iMu3«r oo:- Jolq o* te^f^ noo a ftMd •f»Y»rfT - • .M 1 '. -1- n ntm&t 5.»2 dgSU MM0 9*JI MNMJq *» «Bl» a« 9 .v»«Jr«fc*6, J>o* ,>(ila-v»V3aU » Ul- »c, s wi-ir *aDd3 ie/!3srtw U« oj bi*. jwjtix* M»* kMf »r ••' ante -^»- .«,».. -»7 ni nabtfe^ BSDIUOM! 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