yyvt^^c-.^^

OCEANOGRAPHY

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SPECIAL SUBCOMMITTEE OK OCEANOGEAPHY

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON

MERCHANT MARINE AND FISHERIES

HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES

EIGHTY-SIXTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION
ON

S. 2482

TO REMOVE GEOGRAPHICAL LIMITATIONS ON

ACTIVITIES OF THE COAST AND GEODETIC

SURVEY, AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES

S. 2483

TO PROVIDE FLEXIBILITY IN THE PERFORM-
ANCE OF CERTAIN FUNCTIONS OF THE COAST
AND GEODETIC SURVEY AND OF THE WEATHER
BUREAU

JANUARY 22, 1960

Printed for the use of the Committee on Merchant Marine and Fisneri

5

i l/^5'o 53205

UNITED STATES

GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON : 1960

/^H^-^^^c.-^

OCEANOGRAPHY

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SPECIAL SUBCOMMITTEE ON OCEANOGRAPHY

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON

MERCHANT MAEINE AND FISHERIES

HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES

EIGHTY-SIXTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION
ON

S. 2482

TO REMOVE GEOGRAPHICAL LIMITATIONS ON

ACTIVITIES OF THE COAST AND GEODETIC

SURVEY, AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES

S. 2483

TO PROVIDE FLEXIBILITY IN THE PERFORM-
ANCE OF CERTAIN FUNCTIONS OF THE COAST
AND GEODETIC SURVEY AND OF THE WEATHER
BUREAU

JANUARY 22, 1960

Printed for the use of the Committee on Merchant Marine and Fi

&c
3

53205

UNITED STATES

GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON : 1960

COMMITTEE ON MERCHANT MARINE AND FISHERIES

BONNER, North Carolina, Chairman

THOR C. TOLLEFSOX, Washington
WILLIAM K. VAX PELT, Wisconsin
JOHN H. RAY, Xew York
WILLIAM S. MAILLIARD, California
FRAXCIS E. DORX, Xew York
THOMAS M. PELLY, Washington
A. D. BAUMHART, Jr., Ohio
H. R. GROSS, Iowa
WILLARD S. CURTIX, Pennsylvania
MILTOX W. GLEXX, Xew Jersey
ELMER J. HOFFMAX, Illinois

HERBERT

FRAXK W. BOYKIN, Alabama

EDWARD A. GARMATZ, Maryland

LEOXOR K. (MRS. JOHX B.) SULLIVAN,
Missouri

T. A. THOMPSON, Louisiana

GEORGE P. MILLER, California

HERBERT ZELEXKO, Xew York

FRAXK M. CLARK, Pennsylvania

THOMAS LUDLOW ASHLEY, Ohio

JOHX D. DIXGELL, Michigan

L. MEXDEL RIVERS, South Carolina

TORBERT M. MACDOXALD, Massachusetts

ALT OX LEXNOX, Xorth Carolina

ROBERT X. C. XIX, Pennsylvania

VICTOR L. AXFUSO, Xew York

JAMES C. OLIVER, Maine

THOMAS X. DOWXIXG, Virginia

GERALD T. FLYXX, Wisconsin

BOB CASEY, Texas

THOMAS F. JOHXSOX, Maryland

John M. Drewry, Chief Counsel

Bernard J. Zixcke, Counsel

RoRERT H. CowEN, Counsel

Paul S. Bauer. Consultant

William B. Winfield, Chief Clerk

Special Subcommittee on Oceanography

GEORGE P. MILLER, California, Chairman
JOHN D. DIXGELL, Michigan FRAXCIS E. DORX, Xew York

ALTOX LEXXOX, Xorth Carolina
JAMES C. OLIVER, Maine
GERALD T. FLYXX, Wisconsin

FRAXCIS E.

THOMAS M. PELLY, Washington

WILLARD S. CURTIX, Pennsylvania

John M. Drewey, Counsel
Paul S. Bauer, Consultant

CONTENTS

Faffd

S. 2482 1

Senate Report 726 1

S. 2483 7

Senate Report 71 9 8

Testimony of — ■

Allen, Hon. John J., Jr., Under Secretary of Commerce for Tran.s-

portation, as read by Rear Adm. H. Arnold Karo 25

Grubb, R. C., Assistant Chief, Weather Bureau for Administration.. 28

Karo, Rear Adm. H. Arnold, Director, Coast and Geodetic Survey-- 25

Munson, Henry G., captain, USX, Hydrographer of the Navy and
hydrographer in command of the U.S. Xavy Hydrographic Office

in Oceanography 31

Revelle, Dr. Roger, National Academy of Sciences, National Research

Council, Committee on Oceanography 11

Additional information —

American Legion, letter, January 22, 1960, re 1959 National Con-
vention 24

Bonner, Hon. Herbert C, letter in reply to Dr. Harrison Brown,
Chairman, Committee on Oceonography, National Academy of

Sciences, re S. 2482 11

Department of the Navy, letter, August 12, 1959, signed, "R. L. Kibbe,

Captain," with enclosed memorandum, re S. 2482 4

Statement of purpose and need 9

Statement in support of proposed legislation to remove geographical

limitations on activities of the Coast and Geodetic Survey, etc 3

in

OCEANOGRAPHY

FRIDAY, JANUARY 22, 1960

House of Representatives,
Special Subcommittee on Oceanography of the
Committee on Merchant Marine and Fisheries,

Washington^ B.C.

The subcommittee met at 10 a.m., pursuant to notice, in room 219,
Old House Office Building, Hon. George p. Miller (chairman of the
subcommittee) presiding.

Present : Representatives Miller, Dingell, Oliver, Pelly, and Curtin.

Present also : John M. Drewry, counsel ; Paul S. Bauer, consultant
to the subcommittee; and Bernard M. Winfield, clerk.

Mr. Miller. The meeting will come to order.

The meeting this mommg is for the purpose of hearing testimony
on S. 2482, a bill t-o remove the geographical limitation on activities
of the Coast and Geodetic Survey, and S. 2483, a bill to provide flexi-
bility m the performance of certain functions of the Coast and Geo-
detic Survey and the Weather Bureau.

(S. 2482 and S. 2483 and reports follow:)

[S. 24S2, 86th Cong., 1st sess.]

AN ACT To remove geographical limitations on activities of the Coast and Geodetic
Survey, and for other purposes

Be it enacted hy the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America in Congress assembled, That the Act of August 6, 1947 (ch. 504, 61
Stat. 787; 33 U.S.C. 883a-883i), is amended by adding at the end thereof a new
section reading as follows :

"Sec. 11. The Secretary of Commerce may conduct activities authorized by this
Act without regard to the geographical limitations set forth herein in connection
with projects designated as essential to the national interest by the head of an
executive department or agency."

Passed the Senate August 19 (legislative day, August 18) , 19-59.

Attest :

Felton M. Johis'stox, Secretary.

[S. Rept. No. 726, 86th Cong., 1st sess.]

To Remove Geographical Limitations on Activities of the Coast and Geodetiq

Survey

The Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce, to whom was referred
the bill (S. 2482) to remove geographical limitations on activities of the Coast
and Geodetic Survey, and for other purposes, having considered the same, report
favorably thereon and recommend that the bill do pass.

1

OCEANOGRAPHY

PURPOSE OF THE BILL

This bill is designed to remove present uncertainty as to the extent of possible
offshore activities by the Coast and Geodetic Survey by adding a new section
11 to the act of August 6, 1947 (ch. 504, 61 Stat. 787; 33 U.S.C. 883a-883i) to
provide that the Secretary of Commerce may conduct activities authorized by
the act without regard to the geographical limitations set forth therein, in con-
nection with projects designated as essential to the national interest by the
head of an executive department or agency.

NEED FOK THE LEGISLATION

The intensive development of research programs in many fields of scientific
endeavor in connection with military activities, particularly with regard to
the exploration of outer space; and the pressing need for expanded knowledge
of the oceans' depths for submarine operation and defense as well as for possible
new sources of food and mineral resources, have laid greatly increased demands
upon the Coast and Geodetic Survey which are certain to multiply as the years
go by.

In scientific fields that have taken on new and vital significance, such as ocea-
nography, geodesy, seismology, magnetism and the like, the scientific comi:)etence
and experience of the Survey personnel must be utilized to the fullest in the
interest of survival. That this may be made possible is the primary purix>se
of this bill.

Under the act of August 6, 1947, basic authority is provided for activities of
the Survey which cover a wide field — hydrographic and topographic surveys
of coastal water and land areas, tide and current observations, surveys for
aeronautical charts, geophysical measurements, geomagnetic data, etc., etc.
However, it is prescribed by statute that these activities be conducted

"in the United States, its territories, and possessions" while surveys may also
be made "of offlying islands, banks, shoals, and other offshore islands."

That such limited statutory authority for operation of this most important
research organization is dangerously inadequate becomes self-evident when the
tremendously expanded operations of Russia and other nations in the various
research areas are considered.

As a nation we have been remiss in seeking out data concerning outer space
and the underwater areas that now loom so large in military thinking, as well
as concerning the frozen wastes of the north where Russia has been actively
exploring for years. Fortunately, however, our scientists have been awake to
the needs for vastly accelerated research activities, and have on their own
initiative assembled a great deal of information as to what must be done to try
to close the gap between our knowledge of nature's forces and resources and
the far more thorough understanding of such matters by competing nations.

The Committee on Oceanography, composed of eminent scientists from ocean-
ographic institutions and universities, is greatly concerned over our Nation's
deficiency in studies of the oceans. Likewise, launching of Sputnik I by the
Russians was a shocking reminder to us that we had not pursued our own space
program with necessary vigor and appreciation of the need for such vigor.

Our national funds expended in research on outer space and underwater
exploration have almost infinitesimal compared to what these scientists and
some in Government know that they should have been. Crying "Russia, Russia"
must become tiresome to our people at times, but it is certainly no secret now
that Russia has far exceeded any efforts of this country to explore and chart
the waters of the North Pacific, for instance, as well as the entire Arctic area.

Our security in the years ahead may depend to large extent upon our ability
to defend against long-range-missile submarines lying off our shores, but we
have little knowledge of the Continental Shelf and adjacent depths on which to
base such defense. Attack may come over the frozen north, but here again our
data are negligible.

The recent recommendation by the National Academy of Sciences and the
National Research Council that the Coast and Geodetic Survey be responsible
for half of the deep-ocean surveys in connection with their proix)sed oceano-
graphic program has pointed up the doubt as to whether present statutes would
authorize such participation by the Survey in the program. liecause of this
uncertainty the Survey in the past has had to depend upon other sources for
much of the data, measurements, etc., made outside the United States, its
territories, and possessions.

OCEANOGRAPHY 3

On the economies side, our fisheries are in desperate circumstances, while
Russia and Japan have taken command of the vast fishery resources of the Pacific.
They know more about the fislieries than we do, and their fishery fleets are far
ahead of ours in size and fimctional design.

The Coast and Geodetic Survey must play a leading part in the expanded
research operations which experts in various scientific fields have declared
to be essential. To do so it must be released from the statutory geographical
shackles that now restrict its activities.

The Defense Department, in its report on S. 2482, dated August 12, opposed
enactment on the ground of possible duplication or overlapping of efforts in
areas where Defense research and exploration facilities have been working.
Your committee gave very careful consideration to the Navy's opposition to
the bill, but came to the conclusion that the Coast and Geodetic Survey is
peculiarly fitted to take over a much larger share of the work than is now possible
under existing law. It should be noted that the Bureau of the Budget had no
objection to the submission of the legislation to the Congress. On the other
hand, there is no notation on the report of the Navy, as to the Bureau's position
with respect thereto. Further, we are confident the Deiiartment of Defense and
Commerce will be able to properly cooperate in this highly imix)rtant field.

Reports of the interested Government departments and agencies follow:

The Secretary op Commerce,
Washington, D.C., August 3, 1959.
Hon. Richard M. Nixon,
President of the Senate,
U.S. Senate, Washington, B.C.

Dear Mr. President : There are attached four copies of a proposed bill to
provide flexibility in tlie performance of certain functions of the Coast and
Geodetic Survey and of the Weather Bureau.

There are also attached four copies of a statement of purpose and need for
the proposed bill.

We are advised by the Bureau of the Budget that it would interpose no
objection to- the submission of this proposed legislation.
Sincerely yours,

Frederick H. Mueller,
Acting Secretary of Commerce.

"A BILL To remove geographical limitations on activities of the Coast and Geodetic
Survey, and for other purposes

"Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United
States of America in Congress Assembled, That the Act of August 6, 1947 (ch.
504, 61 Stat. 787, 33 U.S.C. 883a-883i) is amended by adding at the end thereof,
a new section reading as follows :

"Sec. 11. The Secretary of Commerce may conduct activities authorized by
this Act without regard to the geographical limitations set forth herein in
connection with projects designated as essential to the national interest by the
head of an Executive Department or Agency."

Statement in Support of Proposed Legislation To Remove Geographical,
Limitations on Activities of the Coast and Geodetic Survey and for Other
Purposes

The act of August 6, 1947. which provides basic authority for the activities of
the Coast and Geodetic Survey authorizes surveys, observations, measurements,
and charting activities in "the United States, its Territories and possessions."

The purpose of the proposed legislation is to clarify ambiguous language in
the act of August 6, 1&47, and to provide statutory authority for the Secretary
of Commerce to conduct activities listed in that act without regard to the
geographical limitations set forth therein in connection with projects designated
essential to the national interest by the head of an executive department or
agency.

The rapid development of the exploration of outer space, the impelling need
for increasing our knowledge of the oceans, and the increasing range of scientific
investigation and study generally require, for maximum effectiveness, the gather-
ing of increasingly detailed and more widespread geophysical data, which in-

4 OCEANOGRAPHY

eludes geodesy, oceanography, seismology, and geomagnetism. The Coast and
Geodetic Survey as a Government agency primarily resi>onsible for surveys in
these fields has experienced a rapidly inci-easing demand for its services in con-
nection with these activities. Many of these requests require data relating to
geographical locations and geophysical phenomena which can be obtained only
from surveys, observations, measurements or investigations outside the United
States, its Territories and possessions. Under the geographical restrictions set
forth in the 1947 act, the Coast and Geodetic Survey is unable to collect through
its own field parties such data and regardless of the necessity in the national
interest for precise data is forced to rely upon other sources for the necessary
observations, surveys, measurements and investigations with no control over
methods, standards of accuracy or priorities to be established for the various
projects.

The oceanographic program as proposed by the National Academy of Sciences,
National Research Covuicil, which is now being considered by the Congress,
recommends that the Coast and Geodetic Survey be responsible for half of the
deep-ocean surveys. The inclusion of the geographical restrictions in the 1947
act poses a question as to whether or not the Coast and Geodetic Survey has
the legal authority to conduct hydrographic and oceanographic surveys on the
high seas. This question is raised by the ambiguity of the phrase ( "including
surveys of offlying islands, banks, shoals, and other offshore areas)" in section
1(1) of the act.

A question is also raised by the inclusion of the geographical limitations in
section 1 as to whether or not the Coast and Geodetic Survey has the authority
to conduct the activities enumerated in that section in areas outside the United
States, its territories and possessions as a reimbursable project for another
department or agency in accordance with section 601 of the Economy Act of
1932 (31 U.S.C. 686).

The proposed legislation would authorize the Coast and Geodetic Survey to
carry out its activities without regard to geographical limitations whenever the
head of an executive agency determines the project to be essential to the na-
tional interest.

Since the enactment of the enclosed draft bill would not, in the forseeable
future, entail annual expenditure of appropriated funds in excess of $1 million
the provisions of Public Law 801, 84th Congi-ess, are not applicable.

Department of the Navy,

Office of the Secretary,
Washington, D.C., August 12, 1959.
Hon. Warren G. Magnuson,

Chairman, Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce,
U.S. Senate, Washington, D.C.

My Dear Mr. Chahiman : Your request for comment on S. 2482. a bill to re-
move geographical limitations on activities of the Coast and Geodetic Survey,
and for other purposes, has been assigned to this Department by the Secretary
of Defense for the preparation of a report thereon expressing the views of the
Department of Defense.

The act of Congress approved August 6, 1947 (61 Stat. 787), pertaining to the
functions of the Coast and Geodetic Survey, limits the activities of the Survey
to the United States, its Territories, and possessions. The Congress considered
this limitation proi)er inasmuch as surveying, mapping, and charting functions
covering areas outside the United States, its Territories and possessions are
being carried out by the charting and mapping agencies of the Army. Navy, and
Air Force. The responsibilities of the Hydrographic Office of the Department
of the Navy in this connection are defined in United States Code, title 10, section
7391^.

In support of the above functions, national repositories have been established
at the Hydrographic Office, the Army Map Service, and the Aeronautical Chart
and Information Center containing information worldwide in scope, in the fields
of hydrography and oceanography; geodesy and topography, and aeronautical
charting, respectively. These repositories, uniqiie in scope, contain classified
and unclassified surveying, mapping, and charting data produced throughotit the
world. Through its military attacht''S the Dei)artnient of Defense is constantly

OCEANOGRAPHY 5

aware of what survey, mappiug, and charting work exists, what is underway and
what is being planned which is considered of vital interest to the defense of the
United States. Thus, any requirement for this tyi>e of information for areas
outside the United States, its Territories, and possessions can best be met by the
Department of Defense.

The proposed legislation is therefore opposed for the following reasons :
(a) It will result in duplication of responsibilities inasmuch as surveying,
mapping, and charting functions covering areas outside the United States and its
possessions are assigned to the Department of Defense and are accomplished
through the coordinated efforts of the Corps of Engineers, U.S. Army, the U.S.
Navy Hydrographic Office, and the Air Photographic and Charting Service, U.S.
Air Force.

( 6 ) Overlapping functions are never satisfactory as they often lead to dupli-
cation of effort, inefficiency of operations, and split responsibilities.

(c) Survey operations outside the continental limits of the United States
and its possessions usually require diplomatic negotiations with foreign jwwers.
Participation by agencies other than those normally recognized internationally
as having the basic responsibility for carrying out such work, will result in loss
of prestige to the military organizations and possible distrust of the United
States.

(d) The Department of Defense, through its worldwide responsibility, can
provide more efficient logistic support and facilities at less cost to the taxpayer
for all surveying and charting operations carried out by this country outside the
continental limits of the United States and its possessions.

It is pointed out that, through the memorandum of understanding dated Feb-
ruary 24, 1959, between the Department of Defense and the Department of Com-
merce, copy of which is enclosed, the facilities of the U.S. Coast and Geodetic
Survey can be fully utilized by the three services in the event of a national
emergency. No special legislation for that purpose is therefore necessary.
Neither is legislation considered necessary involving operations of the Coast and
Geodetic Survey outside the United States, its Territories and possessions, as
long as such work is requested by the appropriate Department of Defense agency
and reimbursement therefore is made available by transfer of funds.

This report has been coordinated within the Department of Defense in accord-
ance with procedures prescribed by the Secretary of Defense.
Sincerely yours,

R. L. KiBBE,

Captain, U.S. Navy,
Deputy Chief of Legislative Affairs

(For the Secretary of the Navy).

Memorandum of Understanding Between the Department of Defense and
THE Department of Commerce in Regard to the Utilization of the
Facilities of the Coast and Geodetic Survey in the Event of National
Emergency

1. purpose

It is the purpose of this memorandum of understanding to provide, under con-
ditions of a national emergency, for the effective use, cooperation, and coordina-
tion of the services of the Coast and Geodetic Survey of the Department of Com-
merce in support of Department of Defense requirements, and to establish the
conditions of use of such services in the accomplishment of the responsibilities of
the Department of Defense. This memorandum of understanding will be imple-
mented upon Presidential or congressional declaration of a state of national
emergency and when requested by the Secretary of Defense, and will be in con-
formity with the provisions of section 601 of the Economv Act of 1932 (31
U.S.C. 686).

2. understanding

Pursuant to paragraphs 3(b) and 5(b) of the Regulations Governing Coop-
eration of the Coast and Geodetic Survey with the Armed Services dated Feb-
ruary 12, 1954, the U.S. Department of Commerce agrees to make the following
services and facilities of the Coast and Geodetic Survey available for projects,
within the limitations of the Coast and Geodetic Survey Enabling Act of 1947,

53205—60-

b OCEANOGRAPHY

required by tlie Department of Defense npon its request, due consideration
being given to civil defense and minimum civil needs :

(a) Establishment of geodetic control, performance of geodetic compu-
tations, and allied processes pertaining to surveying and geodesy.

(&) Compilation of magnetic data required for isomagnetic charts.

(c) Survey vessels with their personnel and equipment.

(d) Preparation and publication of tidal data to meet special military
requirements.

(e) Cartographic facilities and services required for research, compila-
tion, and color separation for topographic maps, nautical charts, aeronauti-
cal charts, target materials, and allied publications as required during the
period of national emergency.

(/) Photogrammetric and ground surveying and allied services required
for location of objects of military significance and for preparation of
topogi'aphic maps.

ig) Cartographic and reproduction (including photographic processing
and indexing) facilities and services to meet special requirements of the
Department of Defense commensurate with capabilities.
In the event minimmn civil needs cannot be resolved by the Interdepartmental
Board for Cooperation of the Coast and Geodetic Survey with the Armed Serv-
ices, the Office of Civil and Defense Mobilization, or its successor agency, will
be requested to determine those requirements.

3. GENERAL PROVISIONS

(a) Coast and Geodetic Survey personnel, having access to classified informa-
tion, engaged in the accomplishment of work of the Department of Defense will
have an appropriate security clearance issued by the Secretary Control Officer
of the Department of Commerce.

(&) Facilities allocated for accomplishment of Department of Defense work
should preferably be located away from coastal or prime target areas.

(c) The utilization of services set forth in this understanding will be within
the administrative structure of the Coast and Geodetic Survey.

id) Expansion of facilities of the Coast and Geodetic Survey to meet mili-
tary requirements will be determined by policies of the Department of Defense,
assisted by such advisory boards of representatives of military and civilian
mapping and charting organizations as may be established.

(e) The Department of Defense will budget for all military projects envisaged
herein, and will transfer to the Department of Commerce the funds required to
cover the cost of assigned projects.

(/) The Department of Defense will furnish the Department of Commerce its
estimated requirements as far in advance as possible.

iff) The Department of Defense will assist, as may be required, in the pro-
curement or development of additional equipment, materials, or other facilities
needed for the successful completion of assigned military projects.

4. SPECIAL PROVISIONS

Requests for the services of the Coast and Geodetic Survey, made by the
Department of Defense, will be in accordance with the following proceilures :

(a) All photogrammetric and geodetic projects initiated to meet military-
topographic mapping needs under the terms of this understanding will be
made by the Chief of Engineers, Department of the Army.

(&) All magnetic, tidal data, survey vessels, and nautical cartographic
projects under the terms of this understanding will be made by the Depart-
ment of the Navy.

(c) All cartographic services devoted to target materials production,
aeronautical charting, and photographic indexing and related processing,
under the terms of this understanding will be made by the Department of
the Air Force.

(d) The accomplishment of cartographic and reproduction projects for
the Department of Defense will be made in accordance with priorities estab-
lished by the Interdepartmental Board for Cooperation of the Coast and
Geodetic Survey with the Armed Services.

(c) Services and facilities not si)ecifically committed to one of the mili-
tary departments above and not required for minimum civil neetls, and any

OCEANOGRAPHY 7

conflicts among Defense Departmental requirements, will be coordinated by
or tlirough the Pliotographic and Survey Branch, J-2 (Intelligence) Direc-
torate, Joint Staff, Joint Chiefs of Staff, Department of Defense.

5. The details of organizational and liaison relationship between the Depart-
ment of Defense elements and Department of Commerce elements to best utilize
the overall capabilities of the Coast and Geodetic Survey will be developed as
rapidly as feasible in order kbat full utilization may be made upon implementa-
tion of the memorandum of understanding.

6. The terms of this understanding are subject to change as dictated by mobili-
zation requirements upon agreement of the departments concerned.

7. This memorandum of understanding supersedes and rescinds the following
memorandums between the U.S. Department of Commerce and :

(a) Department of the Anny, dated May 29, 1951.
( ft ) Department of the Navy, dated May 17, 1951.
( c) Department of the Air Force, dated October 3, 1951.

Donald A. Quarles,
Secretary of Defense, Acting.
Lewis L. Strauss,
Secretary of Commerce.
February 24, 1959.

changes in existing law

In compliance with subsection 4 of rule XXIX of the Standing Rules of the
Senate, changes in existing law made by the bill are shown as follows (new
matter is printed in italic ; and existing law in which no change is proposed is
shown in roman) :

"AN ACT To define the Functions and Duties of the Coast and Geodetic Survey, and for
other Purposes (61 Stat. 787, ch. 504 ; 33 U.S.C. 883a et seq.)

"Sec. 1. Activities. * * *

"Sec. 2. Dissemination of data. * * *

"Sec. 3. Geomagnetic data. * * *

"Sec. 4. Developmental work. * * *

"Sec. 5. Cooperation with organizations. * * *

"Sec. 6. Contracts. * * *

"Sec. 7. Acceptance of gifts. * * *

"Sec. 8. Employment of Public Vessels. * * *

"Sec. 9. Appropriations. * * *

"Sec. 10. Repeals. * * *

"Sec. 11. The Secretary of Commerce may conduct activities authorized ty
this Act without regard to the geographical limitations set forth herein in
connection with projects designated as essential to the national interest ty
he head of an executive department or agency."

[S. 2483, 86th Cong., 1st sess.]

AN ACT To provide flexibility in the performance of certain functions of the Coast and
Geodetic Survey and for the Weather Bureau

Be it enacted hy the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America in Congress assembled. That section 2 of the Act of July 22, 1947
(61 Stat. 400 : 33 U.S.C. 873) , is amended to read as follows :

"The Secretary of Commerce is hereby authorized to pay extra compensation
to members of crews of vessels when assigned duties as instrument observer or
recorder, and to employees of other Federal agencies while observing tides or
currents, or tending seismographs or magnetographs, at such rates as may be
specified from time to time by him.

Sec. 2. Section 3 of the Act of June 2, 1948 (62 Stat. 286, as amended; 15
U.S.C. 327) , is hereby revised to read as follows :

"The Secretary of Commerce is hereby authorized to (a) appoint employees
for the conduct of meteorological investigations in the Arctic region without
regard to the civil service laws and fix their compensation without regard to the
Classification Act of 1949, as amended (5 U.S.C. 1071 and the following) and
titles II and III of the Federal Employees Pay Act of 1945, as amended (5 U.S.C.

8 OCEANOGRAPHY

911 and the following), at base rates not to exceed the maximum scheduled rate
for GS-12, and (b) grant extra compensation to employees of other Government
agencies for taking and transmitting meteorological observations."

Passed the Senate August 19 (legislative day, August 18), 1959.

Attest :

Felton M. Johnston, Secretary.

[S. Rept. Xo. 719, S6th Cong., 1st se.ss.]

Providing Flexibility in the Performance of Certain Co.\st .\Nn Geodetic
Survey and AVeather Bureau Functions

The Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce, to whom was referred
the bill (S. 2483) to provide flexibility in the performance of certain functions
of the Coast and Geodetic Surve.v and of the Weather Bureau, having considered
the same, report favorably thereon without amendment and recommend that the
bill do pass.

purpose of the bill

This bill would simplify administrative activities of the Coast and Geodetic
Survey and the Weather Bureau, and provide flexibility in the legal provisions
under which they carry out their respective functions.

Section 1 of the bill would authorize the Secretary of Commerce to fix certain
rates of pay for extra compensation for members of crews of vessels when
assigned to certain duties, instead of requiring, as at present, that the rates in
question be incorporated in the annual appropriations. It also would correct
certain obsolete language.

Section 2 would authorize that the rates in question be prescribed at base
rates not to exceed the maximum scheduled rates for GS-12. and would reenact
on a continuing basis the exemption from the classification laws, which was
nullified by the Classification Act of 1949, and has been, since that time, reenacted
in the annual appropriation act.

The legislation was requested by the Secretary of Commerce. There was no
objection to enactment from any source.

The General Counsel of Commerce

Washincjtoii, D.C., August 3, 19o9.
Hon. Warren G. Magnuson.

Chairman, Committee on Interstate and Foreif/n Commerce,
U.S. Senate, Wa^hingt^mi, B.C.

Dear Mr. Chairman : Acting Secretary Mueller is today transmitting to the
President of the Senate and the Speaker of the House draft legislation to pro-
vide flexibility in the performance of certain functions of the Coast and Geodetic
Survey and of the Weather Bureau.

For your information and convenient reference there is enclosed a copy of the
draft legislation together with a statement of purpose and need therefor.
Sincerely yours,

F. Bourne Upham III,
Deputy General Counsel.

"A BILL To provide flexibility in the performance of certain functions of the Coast and
Geodetic Survey and of the Weather Bureau

"Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America- in Congress assemhled. That section 2 of the Act of July 22, 1947 (61
Stat. 400, 33 U.S.O. 873) is amended to read as follows:

" 'The Secretary of Commerce is hereby authorized to pay extra compensation
to members of crews of vessels when assigned duties as instrument observer or
recorder, and to employees of other Federal agencies while observing tides or
currents, or tending seismographs or magnetographs, at such rates as may be
specified from time to time by him.'

"Sec. 2. Section 3 of th^e Act of June 2. 1948 (62 Stat. 286, as amended, 15
U.S.C. 327) is hereby revised to read as follows :

"'The Secretary of Commerce is hereby authorized to (a) appoint employees
for the conduct of meteorological investigations in the Arctic region without re-
gard to the civil service laws and fix their compensati(m without regard to
the Classification Act of 1949, as amended (5 U.S.C. 1071 et seq.) and titles

OCEANOGRAPHY 9

II and III of the Federal Employees Pay Act of 1945, as amended (5 U.S.C.
911 et seq.) at base rates not to exceed the maximum scheduled rate for GS-12,
and (b) grant extra compensation to employees of other Government agencies
for taking and transmitting meteorological observations.' "

"statement of purpose and need

"The purpose of the bill is to make possible simplification of appropriation
act language and fo provide flexibility in the legal provisions under which tlie
Coast and Geodetic Survey and the Weather Bureau, in the Department of Com-
merce, cari-y out certain functions relating to oceanographic observations, seismo-
graph observations, magnetic observations, meteorological observations and me-
teorological investigations in the Arctic region.

"Section 2 of the act of July 22, 1947, 61 Stat. 400, 33 U.S.C. 873, authorized
the Coast and Geodetic Survey to pay extra compensation to members of cx'ews
of vessels when assigned duties as bombers or fathometer readers, and to em-
ployees of other Federal agencies while observing tides or currents or tending
seismographs, at such rates as may be specified from time to time in the appro-
priation concerned.

"During the intervening years, it has been necessary each year to incorporate
in the appropriation for the Coast and Geodetic Survey language fixing the
above-mentioned rates. This has resulted in an unnecessary and undesirable
complication of the appropriation act language. In addition, the rate in-
corporated in the appropriation act language tends to become fixed and inade-
quate in the light of changing times and conditions. Necessary adjustments
from time to time require the attention of the Congress, even though they are
of negligible significance compared with the many imixirtant questions of public
policy which urgently require the attention of the Congress.

"To remedy this difficulty and provide necessary flexibility, it is proposed
in section 1 of the bill to authorize the Secretary of Commerce to fix the rates
rather than to require them to be specified in appropriation acts.

"Section 1 of the bill would also correct certain obsolete language. In view
of technological advances in the nature of the work concerned, the phra.se in the
present law 'assigned duties as bombers or fathometer readers' would be changed
to 'assigned duties as instrimient observer or recorder,' and 'tending seismo-
graphs' would be changed to 'tending seismographs or magnetographs'."

"The Weather Bureau has a similar but somewhat more complex problem.
Section 3 of the act of June 2, 1948, 62 Stat. 286, 15 U.S.C. 327, authorized the
Weather Bureau to (a) grant extra compensation to employees of other Gov-
ernment agencies for taking and transmitting meteorological observations, and
(b) appoint employees for the conduct of meteorological investigations in the
Arctic region without regard to the civil service and classification laws and
titles II and III of the Federal Employees Pay Act of 1945, both at base rates
which shall not exceed such maximum rates as may be specified from time to
time in the appropriation concerned.

"The foregoing language makes it nece.ssary to specify the rates mentioned in
the appropriation language each year. This unnecessarily complicates the ap-
propriation language, fixes the rates in relatively rigid form, and makes it
necessary to take up the time of the Congress in consideration of adjustments
in such rates. In addition, the section as enacted in 1948 contained an exception
from the classification laws. This exemption was nullified by the Classification
Act of 1JM9, and it has been necessary to reenact it each year in the annual
appropriation act.

"The additional complexity in the appropriation act resulting from the neces-
sity of including these details is refiected by the fact that two-thirds of the
appropriation act language is devoted to a proviso setting forth these details.

"Section 2 of the bill would authorize the Secretary of Commerce to prescribe
the rates concerned, at base rates not to exceed the maximum scheduled rate
for GS-12, and would reenact on a continuing basis the exemption from the
classification laws which is now dependent on annual appropriation acts.

"Changes in the rates now specified in the appropriation acts are urgently
needed. The Coast and Geodetic Survey reports that it is no longer practicable
in numerous localities to obtain the services required for only $1 a day, the
rate now authorized by statute. An increase in the rate to $5 a day is now

10 OCEANOGRAPHY

essential. The Weather Bureau reports it is no longer practicable in many
localities to obtain the services required for only $5 a day. An increase in the
rate to $8 a day is now required.

"Enactment of the bill would make it possible to simplify the appropriation
act for the two appropriations concerned, provide much-needed flexibility in the
periodic adjustment of the rates, and eliminate the necessity for asking the
Congress to legislate on what are essentially minor details of administration."

CHANGES IN EXISTING LAW

In compliance with subsection 4 of rule XXIX of the Standing Rules of the
Senate, changes in existing law made by the bill are shown as follows (existing
law proposed to be omitted is enclosed in black brackets ; new matter is printed
in italic; and existing law in which no change is proposed is shown in roman) :

(33 U.S.C. 873)

"[The Coast and Geodetic Survey is authorized to pay extra compensation
to members of crews of vesisels when assigned duties as bombers or fathometer
readers, and to employees of other Federal agencies while observing tides or
currents or tending seismographs, at such rates as may be specified from time
to time in the appropriation concerned.]

''The Secretary of Commerce is hereby authorized to pay extra compensation
to memhers of crews of vessels tvhen assigned duties as instrument observer or
recorder, and to employees of other Federal agencies while observing tides or
Gurrents, or tending seismographs or magnetographs, at such rates as may be
specified from time to time by him.'"

(15 U.S.C. 327)

"[The Weather Bureau is authorized to (a) grant extra compensation to em-
ployees of other Government agencies for taking and transmitting meteor-
ological observations, and (b) appoint employees for the conduct of meteor-
ological investigations in the Arctic region without regard to the civil-service
and classification laws and sections 911-913, 921 and 922 of Title 5, both at base
rates which shall not exceed such maximum rates as may be specified from
time to time in the appropriation concerned.]

"The Secretary of Commerce is hereby authorized to {a) appoint employees
for the conduct of meteorological investigations in the Arctic region tvithout
regard to the civil service laics and fix their compensation without regard to
the Classification Act of 1949, as amended (5 U.S.C. 1071 and the folJoiring),
and titles II and III of the Federal Employees Pay Act of 1945, as amended (5
U.S.C. 911 and the following), at base rates not to exceed the maximum sched-
uled rate for GS-12, and {b) grant extra compensation to employees of other
Government agencies for taking and transmitting meteorological observations."

Mr. MiLLEK. Both of these bills have identical countei-parts in the
House. The bills passed the Senate in the closing weeks of the session,
but our committee did not have opportunity to act upon them last
year.

In the case of S. 2482, however, we did order the bill reported, but
withheld actual reporting- when some questions arose concerning the
intent of the legislation. I think it would be worthwhile if I were to
read into the record a letter from Chairman Bonner to Dr. Harrison
Brown, Chairman of the National Academy of Sciences Conunittee on
Oceanography, in reply to a letter from him endorsing the proposed
broadened jurisdiction for the Coast and Geodetic Survey.

I am going to ask the counsel of the committee to read that cor-
respondence now.

]Mr. Dhkwhy. The letter of December 2;^, 1959, fnmi Chairman

OCEANOGRAPHY H

Bonner to Dr. Harrison Brown, Chairman, Committee on Oceanog-
raphy, National Academy of Sciences, 2101 Constitution Avenue,
Washington, D.C., reads as follows :

Deae Doctor : Receipt is acknowledged of your letter of November 27, rela-
tive to S. 2482, to remove geographical limitations on activities of the Coast and
Geodetic Survey. I appreciate hearing from you on this important matter, and
your offer of Committee on Oceanography repi-esentation in the event of hearings.

When I liad the pleasure and privilege, together with members of our
Special Subcommittee on Oceanography, to join with yoiu- group at Lubec, Maine,
last summer, I recall that this subject was an item on your agenda. >Following
that meeting our subcommittee chairman, Representative George P. Miller,
introduced a bill to accomplish that purpose. Subsequently, I introduced a
similar measure, when the administration forwarded a draft bill to the Congress.

Circumstances in the closing weeks of the session denied us the opportunity
to liold hearings on the legislation, although we did take action in the committee,
ordering the bill reported, following the Senate action. Upon learning that the
matter was not noncontroversial we withheld reporting the bill to the House,
pending an opportunity to hold hearings on it in January when Congress recon-
venes. I understand that committee counsel, Jack Drewry, explained the back-
ground of this situation to you when he and Congressman Oliver attended your
committee meeting in Pasadena in October.

It is my intention to schedule a hearing on the legislation as soon as feasible
after the beginning of the next session. I think it will be appropriate and
desirable to receive testimony from .someone on behalf of your committee. I will
see that you receive adequate notice of the scheduling of the hearing.

With kindest regards and best wishes for a very happy Christmas and New
Year.

Sincerely,

Herbert C. Bonner, Chairmati.

Mr. Miller. For the convenience of the members I have had dupli-
cated and distributed to each desk a copy of the pertinent provisions
of law which will be affected by the bills under consideration today.

We have a number of important witnesses from the cognizant
departments this morning, and we are privileged to have with us Dr.
Eog-er Revelle, a member of the Committee on Oceanography of the
National Academy of Sciences, and the distinguished director of
Scripps Institution on Oceanography.

May I say that Dr. Revelle was a wonderful host when Mr. Pelly,
Mr. Bauer, and I had an opportunity to visit with him this summer.
He has come to Washington to attend an important committee meeting
of the National Academy of Sciences Oceanography group. Accord-
ingly, in view of his commitments and the great interest in this sub-
ject on the part of the NASCO Committee, I am going to ask that
Dr. Revelle appear first.

STATEMENT OF DR. ROGER REVELLE. NATIONAL ACADEMY OF
SCIENCES, NATIONAL RESEARCH COUNCIL, COMMITTEE ON
OCEANOGRAPHY

Dr. Revelle. This is such an important subject, Mr. Chairman,
that I am quite glad to spend all the time that is necessary that will
be of use to the committee.

Mr. Miller. May I just say this in passing. The Honorable John
J. Allen, Jr., Under Secretary of Coimiierce for Transportation, was
to appear this morning and I had a call from him just a few minutes
ago that he was called to the White House on a transportation prob-
lem and could not be with us this morning.

12 OCEANOGRAPHY

I think that Admiral Karo will make his excuses.

Mr. Allen is going to Panama next week and I have told him that
when he returns from Panama we shall be very happy to arrange a
meeting at his convenience so that we can hear from him.

Thank you.

Dr. Revelle. Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, the
subject of this bill is one with which I have been closely concerned al-
most all my adult life and I do not appear as an advocate for any par-
ticular point of view. I am concerned, I think, with the interest of the
United States as the greatest maritime power and what I want to
argue for is the continued effectiveness of both the Hydrographic
Office of the Navy and the Coast Survey of the United States.

It is my personal belief and also the belief of the members of the
Committee on Oceanography that Senate bill 2482 and its counter-
part in the House, H.R. 8611, will in fact strengthen both agencies.

The Hydrographic Office, by its charter, has responsibility both for
fostering the civilian maritime interest of the United States and also
the interest of the Navy.

The pressure of the needs of defense has been so great in the postwar
era that the Hydrographic Office has, of necessity, had to spend most
of its manpower and effort in the support of defense needs.

In this work it has been assisted by the Coast Survey upon request
of the Secretary of the Navy and the Hydrographic Office has pro-
vided funds to the Coast Survey for carrying out certain survey work.

This work has usually been of a rather crash nature; that is, it is
something which always had to be done as quickly as possible, and this
is only natural in view of the rapidly changing needs of defense.

In the case of the longer term interests of the country, however,
systematic surveying on a broadly conceived and long range plan is a
far more satisfactory way to make charts, to find out what the shape
of the sea floor is like and what the magnetic and gravity topography
underneath the sea floor is like, than short range highly concentrated
efforts in which necessarily the overwhelming need is for doing things
in a hurry.

Therefore, the work is often quite expensive and it is often directed
to just one objective or a limited number of objectives, and it is dif-
ficult to do the overall broad long-range job which will serve many
future purposes.

The Committee on Oceanography has advocated, and I think every-
one is agreed in the Government, that we should expand our surveying
effort to cover not only the shallow water coastal areas of the world
but also the entire ocean.

We have called this an oceanwide, ocean deep survey effort and the
necessity for this is basically a long range necessity. Part of the
necessity comes from the needs of the fishing industry of the United
States, the needs to expand our exploitation of the living resources of
the sea and, for example, tlie discovery of sea mounts off the Mexican
and Central American coasts many hundreds of miles from shore has
actually led to an increase in the tuna catch. The tuna, and fish in
general, tend to concentrate around high places in the sea floor even
though they are quite deep.

OCEANOGRAPHY 13

Several sea mounts several limidred fathoms deep in the Central
Eastern Pacific have been discovered in the last few years and tuna
fishermen have gone to them and have actually caught a good deal
of fish.

On one bank in particular within a few months a million dollars
worth of tuna were caught from this newly discovered bank. This is
simply an illustration of one of the potentials of surveying the area
beyond the continental shelves of the United States and the other
coastlines of the world.

The principal needs at the present moment for such deep sea sur-
veying are certainly military. They are related to the navigation
of submarines, to the ability of submarines to locate themselves by
using land marks on the sea floor, and the use of various kinds of
underwater devices in which the bottom topography is a serious mat-
ter. But basically, one can say this: that maps of the ocean floor,
like maps of the land, are useful for military purposes. Just as an
army on land needs to know the toj^ography very well indeed, so
the modern navy with its increasing dependence on submarines needs
to know the topography of the sea floor very well indeed.

The making of maps has therefore always been an important mili-
tary requirement.

Moreover, the Navy, because of its worldwide interest, has had a
long tradition of sending out expeditions to faraway places and, as
a case in point, one may cite the maps of most of the South Pacific
islands which were made by either the British Admiralty or by the
American Navy in the first decades of the 19th century, something
over a hundred years ago.

If you want to go to the Taumotu Islands, for example, or even
to many of the Society Islands, you buy from the Hydrographic
Office a chart which was made by the IT.S. Ex]:)loring Expedition in
1837. It is labeled "U.S. Ex. Ex." Particularly during the 19th
century, the Navy was very much concerned with worldwide surveys
and surveys remote from the shorelines of the world but with the
increase of the Navy's responsibilities, it has become plainly evident
that this charting work has attained a fairly low priority. Simply
because the Navy has so many more things to do than it could possibly
do. the charting has tended to take a low priority.

The Coast Survey, on the contrary, has as its primary mission and
indeed its sole mission to find out about the earth, about the magnetic
field of the earth, about the gravitational field of the earth which
aft'ects geodesy, the topography of the surface, and the shape of the
whole earth.

Its appropriations for this purpose come directly from Congress
and the magnitude of the U.S. surveying effort insofar as it is done by
the Coast Survey can be judged directly by Congress and evaluated
and approved or disapproved.

It therefore seems to me and to the Committee on Oceanography
that no harm would be done and a great deal of good would be done
if the abilities of the Coast Survey were enlarged to enable it to con-
duct its excellent surveys in waters which extend beyond the imme-
diate territories of the United States.

53205—60-

14 OCEANOGRAPHY

One reason for this is, of course, the cagueness of definition of what
the waters immediately outside the United States and its possessions
are.

The Survey has, in general, interpreted this to mean waters on the
Continental Shelf or the continental slope, and beyond the continental
slope they have made surveys but these have been essentially incidental
to their work on the shelf and the slope. They have not been part of
their planned program. They have simply been incidental as, for
example, their surveys in the Gulf of Alaska which were made when
the ships went from Seattle to Alaska using the gulf. Each time they
took as close survey lines as they could and were eventually able to
provide a pretty good map of the Gulf of Alaska based upon these
sounding lines of opportunity.

In my own opinion, the map would have been better if it had been
done for its own sake rather than incidentally in passage. The navi-
gational control would have been better.

The spacing of the lines would have been more carefully planned
and the lines would have been laid out in such a way that the accuracy
of different lines could be checked against each other.

The Coast Survey and the Navy at one time were one organization.
The Survey ships were manned by naval officers with civilian engi-
neers to do the actual survey work.

In the 1890's and early 1900's, the Congress was persuaded that this
system was not a satisfactory one and since that time the Coast Survey
ships have been manned by specially commissioned officers taken from
civilian life, trained as civil engineers, so that the entire survey organi-
zation from Admiral Karo on down have spent their lives in the busi-
ness of finding out about the eartli, obtaining information about the
shape of the earth, the topography of the surface, and, as I said, the
other features of the earth which are of national interest, such as the
magnetic field and the gravity field.

The survey ships of the Coast Survey, therefore, have officers and
men who are career surveyors and wlio literally spend, for 20 years or
more, every year at sea conducting surveys of the very highest quality.

In contrast, the Hydrographic Office is, of necessity, manned or is
controlled and supervised by career officers w^ho have many other expe-
riences, who have spent a relatively small part of their time in the sur-
veying business, and whose promotion and whose careers do not
depend upon surveys but upon how good tliey are as leaders of men
and as managers and as tacticians and as gunners and as experts in
electronics and all of the manifold complexities of the Navy.

I have been in the Naval Reserve most of my life. I served in
the Navy for 7 years. What I have often said is that the interests
of the Navy and the interests of the country are identical, and one
can say this in a variety of ways. One way to put it is that every-
thing that is done in the TTnited States is of interest and importance
to the Navy. Everything that the Navy does is of interest and im-
portance to the United States, but just because of tliese very broad
interests, it seems desirable to me that the Navy should be able to
call upon and should be able to depend upon, without really con-
trolling, the efforts of other components of the Government, particu-
larly in this very highly specialized field of surveying where a life-
time of experience is essential for adequate planning and control.

OCEANOGRAPHY 15

The oceans of the world, as you gentleman know very well by
this time, cover a very large area. Nearly three-fourths of the sur-
face of the earth is covered by sea water. About 10 percent of the
ocean area consists of the continental shelves of the world and most
of this Continental Shelf area has been surveyed with some degree of
accuracy.

On the other hand, the other 90 percent of the ocean area, the
deep sea has hardly been surveyed at all. There have been sound-
ing lines run across it on a casual catch-as-catch-can basis primarily
by Xavy ships, and these are the basis of the Hydrographic Office
compilations of the somidings in the deep sea.

Up until a year or so ago, at least, only about 2 percent of the
deep-sea area had been surveyed with any accuracy at all com-
parable to any maps on land. Part of this 2 percent was the area
off the west coast of the United States where the Coast Survey ship
Pioneer, using Navy funds and under the direction of the Navy, made
a survey of an area of about 100,000 square miles with sounding lines
5 miles apart. This is the closest grid we have anywhere in the deep
sea.

I am sure that everyone concerned would say that the survey by the
Coast and Geodetic Survey of this area off the west coast of North
America was conducted with the very highest standards of accuracy
and precision. It is a most satisfactory job.

The purpose of this bill is to enable the Coast Survey to do a
job like this on the request of any head of a Government agency
and provide that the funds are appropriated directly by Congress.
This is a job which they have demonstrated that they are capable
of doing, which they are eager to do, and which, in the opinion of
both scientists and the fishing industry needs to be done.

I think that the basic thing that could be said is that in this
field of surveys one never need fear the problem of duplication, nor
the problem of coordination. The coordination can be done very
easily and the duplication is virtually impossible because of the
extremely large area of the oceans that needs to be surveyed. If
you put every surveying agency of the United States on the job,
it would still take a long time to do it.

The great thing about it is that, if the Coast Survey can be brought
into the act, systematic surveys of high quality can be planned on a
long-term basis, the ships and facilities can be built, and men can be
recruited to do this job at a level with the accuracy and precision that
is required.

I am quite confident that the Hydrographic Office could do the job
provided that they had the support of the Congress for this specific
function, but the Congress does not really have a chance to support a
particular function of the Navy Department. The budget of the
Navy is so large and it passes through so many hands before it
reaches Congress that you have very little control of such a relatively
small operation in the Navy as the Hydrographic Officer, whereas you
have a very direct and easily carried out control of the activities of
the Coast Survey.

I think that that is all I need to say by way of introduction, Mr.
Chairman. Perhaps we can continue this conversation by questions.

16 OCEANOGRAPHY

Mr. Miller. Doctor, are you not in effect telling us that all we are
going- to do is to bring the Coast and Geodetic Survey into the 20th
century ? At the time it was established sailing was used a great deal
in the traffic of the ocean. Most all fishing boats were sailed under
sail. In GO years great changes have taken place and there have been
technological advances, so that we do go far afield for fish for food.
It is a completely new area, just as much as the break from the old
wagon train in the early days of the development of the country has
taken place and all we are trying to do is modernize ; is that right ?

Dr. Kevelle. Yes ; it certainly is. The way I would put this, Mr.
Chairman, is that at the present time with our present technology
and our present needs, it is really completely impossible to divide the
ocean up into arbitrary areas. The oceans of the world are indi-
visible. They are a unit, and to say that you have some kind of an
artificial line between one part and another just does not coincide with
our present needs or our present capabilities.

Mr. INIiLLER. I remember, too, that we have a Geological Survey
that makes topographic maps of the United States. This sprang
from the military. The work was once done by the Army.

Dr. Eevelle. The founder of the Survey was, of course. Major
Powell, who had been in the surveying branch of the Army.

Mr. Miller. Fremont entered the Army as a topographical engi-
neer, not as a line officer. With the most modern methods of aerial
survey today, we have not succeeded in completely mapping the land
area of the United States, which is less than one-fiftieth of the area
of the ocean.

Mr. Pelly?

Mr. Pelly. I would first like, Mr. Chairman, to join with you in
the sentiment that you expressed earlier with regard to the hospitality
when our subcommittee visited the Scripps Institution of Oceanog-
raphy, I can say for myself that I found tlie information and other
experiences there extremely helpful and I know it is going to make
my work on this subcommittee more effective.

I am concerned. Dr. Kevelle, about the adverse report of the Navy
on this legislation. Reference is made in their comments as to the
overlapping functions and duplication. I think all of us are con-
stantly hearing criticism that there is duplication and waste in Gov-
ernment, and I am interested in your objective analysis that actually
that would not exist ; is that correct ?

Dr. Eevelle. I have the letter from the Secretary of the Navy be-
fore me.

Mr. Pelly. I am referring to page 5 in the report on the legislation.

Dr. Eevelle. It says :

The proposed legislation is therefore opposed for the following reasons :
(a) It will result in duplication of responsibilities inasmuch as surveying,
nsapping and charting functions covering areas outside the United States and its
possessions are assi.uned to the Department of Defense and are accomplished
through the cooi-dinated efforts of the Corps of Engineers, U.S. Army, the U.S.
Navy Hydrographic Office, and the Air Photograpliic and Chartering Service,
U.S. Air Force.

(&) Overlapping functions are never satisfactory as they often lead to dupli-
cation of effort, inefficiency of operations, and split responsibilities.

Mr. Pelly, The point of the Navy that I get is that actually the
Coast and Geodetic Survey service is available to the Department of
Defense in an emergency and that the best manner of efficiently getting

OCEANOGRAPHY 17

the results that are desired would be by allowing the Department of
Defense to exercise its present authority to request and coordinate any
surveys that might be made.

Dr. Revelle. But you see, Mr. Pelly, this rests on what seems to me
to be an inadequate premise and that is that the only reason for making
surveys is a military reason outside the continental limits of the
United States, and this I do not think is the case. There are also
scientific and commercial reasons for making such surveys.

Mr. Pelly. I think that is an extremely important point, and one
that I wanted to see written into the record because I think that when
the Department of Defense is pointed up, as it is in this report, as
providing "more efficient logistic support and facilities," they are
thinking in terms of military values and not of other scientific values
that are very desirable.

Dr. Revelle. I do not mean to imply by this that the Navy has not
supported and will not continue to support scientific research on a very
liberal and generous scale, but the Department of Defense, in its sur-
vey functions as opposed to its support of science, inevitably has to put
first things first in accordance with their mission and their mission is
obviously the security of the United States ; so that, the survey opera-
tions planned and directed by the Department of Defense, regardless
of whether they are carried out by Defense Department vessels or by
the Coast Survey vessels, have in general quite a narrow objective
related to the security of the United States.

Mr. Pelly. Has it not been our experience in the last few years that
the various agencies and services of Government are coordinating their
efforts and avoiding the duplication and waste ? Was that your ob-
servation ?

Dr. Revelle. There is no question about tliat, Mr. Pelly, and, in
fact, the New Federal Council of Science and Technology has made
an experiment in trying to go a good deal further in tliis than has
ever been done before, and they have made the experiment in the
field of oceanography simply because there was a ready-made case
here where several departments of the Government had different in-
terests and different activities and the problem was to fit these into
one miified, coordinated, nonduplicating, and effective package.

I was talking to Mr. Kistiakowsky on Saturday, the President's
scientific adviser, and his comment was that in the oceanography
effort this was what they have been able to do. It is an achievement
by them. It is a small field compared with the development of atomic
energy or space research, but it is an important field and one in which
there have been vested interests of different Government agencies for
a long time. They think they have effected, and I am sure they are
right, a very satisfactory degree of coordination. I myself am not
worried at all about the problem of duplication, both because of this
deliberate attempt at coordination within the Federal Council on
Science and Technology and more particularly, however, because of
the fact that if every surveying ship available to the United States
were multiplied by three or four they could all be profitably occu-
pied for many years to come in surveying the oceans.

Mr. Pelly. And the Navy will have a very large voice in the selec-
tion of any area outside present limitations because their priority

18 OCEANOGRAPHY

will be a very high one as far as the Coast and Geodetic Survey
is concerned.

Dr. Eevelle. I am sure this is the case, but I would like to point
out again what I said in my previous statement that what really
needs to be done is to have a long-range i)lan and a long-range plan
is the easiest kind of plan to coordinate. It is by far the most eco-
nomical and it is by far the most eftective in doing the overall job
that needs to be done.

You have to really think not only of the needs of defense this year
and nest year but the defense needs that we will have 10 or 15 years
from now.

This is the kind of a surveying job which the Coast Survey is par-
ticularly adept at doing, jobs which are good not just for the imme-
diate needs but for the continuing needs of the comitry.

Mr. Pelly. Thank you.

Mr. DiNGELL (presiding) . Mr. Oliver ?

Mr. Oliver. Mr. Chairman, I have not too many questions to ask
Dr. Revelle. I would like to say, however, that, associating myself
with the remarks which have been made by Congressman Miller and
Congressman Pelly, it has been not only a real pleasure but a privi-
lege to have been on this committee for these past several months
primarily because of the information which it has been possible to
have absorbed during this time which is due in no large part, may
I say, to such dedicated people as yourself, Doctor, and those others
on the committee of scientists who ha^-e not only made this the most
pleasant mission I have had on this committee but also the sessions
made possible because of membership have been most satisfying
indeed.

I feel that the subject matter of this hearing is of tremendous
importance. I realize that the point about overlapping jurisdiction
and activities, and so forth, is a rather potent one so far as many
people in our country are concerned and also in our Government.

I would like to ask you this question in that connection. Dr.
Revelle. If the civilian purpose, which you have referred to, to result
from a continuity of surveying the ocean bottom is to be carried out
on a systematic and continuing basis, then it obviously requires people
who are specializing perhaps as a career in this type of work. Is that
your feeling ?

Dr. Revelle. That is very strongly my feeling ; yes.

Mr. Oliver. On the other hand, if naval commissioned personnel
are doing this work through the Hydrographic Office of the Navy,
does it not follow, then, that the general efficiency and general ability
of naval personnel assigned to this dut}^ is apt to be diluted by reason
of the fact tliat they would have to stay on this particular assiginnent
for a longer period of years than they ordinarily would in the rotating
system that is now carried out so far as naval commissioned person-
nel, of course ?

Dr. Revelle. You understand, of course, sir, and I am sure Cap-
tain Munson would explain to you, that there are people in the Navy
who are hydrographic specialists and spend their careers on naval
ships; but I was saying tliat the bosses, the men who run the show
and plan the programs, are officers who necessarily have a wide variety
of jobs and a wide variety of responsibilities and interests, whereas

OCEANOGRAPHY 19

the Coast and Geodetic Survey organization all the way from the
bottom to the top consists of people who have spent their lives in this
one specialty.

While I am on this particular subject, let me carry this problem one
step further. It has been suggested that one could do a lot by having
ordinary merchant marine ships make these surveys or in the long
run that somehow by compiling the data from merchant marine
vessels you could produce adequate charts.

My own opinion is that our experience shows that this just cannot
be done. There are several reasons for this. One of the reasons for
it is an interesting fact of geometry.

Merchant ships always take the Great Circle routes from one port
to the other or the shortest distance from one port to the other. They,
therefore, make many sounding lines which are parallel to each other
on routes which are pretty much great circles between ports, and this
leads to a curious type of topography. The contour of the soundings
made by the merchant ships leads to topography which we call Great
Circle topography. It has nothing to do with what the earth is like.
The soundings made by the merchant ships are not very well located,
the sounding machines are not in very good shape, and the result is
that two soundings a mile or so apart may apparently differ by 600
feet or so in depth so that, if you are drawing 100-foot contours, you
would draw six contours between those two lines, whei'eas if you sur-
veyed a line at right angles, you would find that you were going over
a flat plane where the depth difference is not more than a few feet.

So you get tliese lines which are comparable to great circles and
this has nothing to do with what the ocean is actually like. The ocean
does not pay attention to any arbitrary lines let alone such arbitrary
lines as great circles and distances between ports.

Mr. Oliver. Having had a couple of months of "boot" training with
the U.S. Coast Guard in World War II, Doctor, I have a vague
recollection of what you are now discussing. But I appreciate that
there is a problem involved.

Dr. Revelle. It is really very simple. The thing is that any job that
is worth doing requires a professional. You cannot do a good job
as a kind of a supplement or hobby on the side of what your main
mission is. The job of merchant ships is to carry goods from one
place to the other just as fast as they can and to turn around and come
back just as soon as they can.

The job of the Navy is to defend the country. The job of the Coast
Survey is to make charts and maps.

All three of these jobs are done very well by the professionals, but
when a pro tries to do somebody else's job, he turns out to be an
amateur.

Mr. Oli\ter. I have one other question. Doctor. I do not know
whether you would care to comment on it or not, but do you know
whether there has been a free interchange of data between the Navy
and the Coast and Geodetic Survey insofar as surveying material is
concerned ?

Dr. Ee\'ej:.le. Are you talking about equipment now or actual somid-
ings ?

Mr. Oliver. I mean, has there been an interchange of information
and data that have been compiled as a result of surveying?

20 OCEANOGRAPHY

Dr. Revelle. I do not really know abont this, Congressman Oliver.
As you laiow, until recently many soundings have been classified and
I am not sure whether the Navy has given the soundings to the Coast
Survey or not.

Mr. Olpver. "VVliat I am trying to get at is, if the fishermen in the
New England area, for example, wanted the data with reference to
the banks or some other area up in the waters of that geographical
area, any Navy data would be available for civilian purposes?

Dr. IvEVELLE. I am sure it would be available as long as it is not
classified.

Mr. Olh^r. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman. Thanlv you.

Mr. Miller (presiding). Mr. Curtin?

Mr. CuRTiN. Doctor, is it at all possible for you to estimate the
increased cost of this expanded program ? What would be the extra
cost annually to the Government?

Dr. Revelle. Of the Coast Survey ?

Mr. CuRTiN. If this bill were enacted which would provide for the
increased activities of the Coast and Geodetic Survey, would j^ou tell
me exactly what it would cost the Government ?

Dr. Revelle. It depends on what Congi-ess wants the Coast Survey
to do.

Mr. CuRTiN". Is it possible to give an estimate of the cost of this
bill?

Dr. Revelle. The best way to put it is that if the Survey carried out
the recommendations made by the National Research Council Com-
mittee on Oceanography, I can give you the figures. Of course, that
depends on whether the Congress thinks this is worth doing. We
recommended that the Coast Survey should build 10 new survey ships
within the next 10 years, we estimate that this would cost about $36
million over the next 10 years; and that the operating costs would
be $14 million over the next 10 years.

Mr. CuRTiN. Would that operating cost increase as they got more
ships ?

Dr. Revelle. Yes; that is right. By 1970 costs above the present
level of expenditures in our recommendation would be $2.3 million
for ship operatoi's; capital costs for shore facilities for the increased
activity during the next 10 years would be about $4 million; and the
operating costs of the shore facilities during the next 10 years would
total about $24 million above the present level of expenditures. It
comes out to about $3,800,000 a year and capital costs, costs for build-
ing ships and shore facilities, $5 million a year, so that the total cost
to the Government, if the entire program recommended by the Acad-
emy for the Coast Siu'vey were carried out would be about $8 million
a year.

I think the Coast Survey does not plan such an extensive program.

Mr. CuRTiN. But that would be your recommendation ?

Dr. Revelle. What we recommended would be the total that should
be done by the Coast Survey.

We recommended a similar expenditure by the Navy.

Mr. CuRTiN. Thank you.

That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Miller. Mr. Dineell ?

OCEANOGRAPHY 21

Mr. DiNGELL. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Mr. Miller. Mr. Counsel ?

Mr. Drewry. Dr. Revelle, let me see if I understand your position
entirely. The position of your Committee is that this additional au-
thority will more effectively allow the Coast Survey to participate on
an overall long-range planned progi-am ; is that correct?

Dr. Revelle. That is correct. Yes, sir.

Mr. Drewry. At the present time, the Coast Survey, acting under
statutory authority, is statutorily lunited as to its fielcl of operations ?

Dr. Revelle. It is not quite certain that it is but the Coast Survey
interprets it that way.

Mr. Drewry. Althougli it is interpreted that way, never the less
they have worked on a cooperative arrangement with the Department
of Defense ?

Dr. Revelle. Wliat they have done is this : They have made their
ships and men available to tlie Department of Defense provided the
Department of Defense put up the money and in accordance with very
close direction by the Department of Defense.

Mr. Drewtjy. So, still thinking of the Coast Survey's relationship to
the Department of Defense, this would allow the Coast Survey and the
Hydrographic Office together to say, "Here is a project that we can
both work on. I will go to my appropriations subcommittee for
money and you go to yours," rather than to have it all come out of
Navy and then be on a reimbursable basis ; is that correct ?

Dr. Revelle. That is connect. I am not sure that I quite under-
stand what this means in terms of budgeting, but I think that what it
means is that the Coast Survey budget would be based on the planned
survey program and come before you gentlemen for authorization and
before the appropriate subcommittee for appropriations whereas, in
the case of the Navy, most of these things are decided internally
within the Navy simply because it is such a small part of the overall
Navy budget.

Mr. Drewrt. Now, Mr. Pelly brought up a point which is a very
important point in our holding these hearings. In this bill, in its par-
ticular language, it says that the Coast Survey may conduct activities
without regard to geographical limitations set forth in the existing
Coast and Geodetic Survey authority in connection with projects des-
ignated as essential to the national interest by the head of an executive
department or agency.

Is there not a possibility that within that language the thing that
I believe you are interested in could be frustrated by, let us say, the
Department of Agriculture wanting to have them perform functions
relating to some new concept of planktonic food or something of that
sort, while the Geological Survey is saying that it is essential in the
national interest to do certain work to find out about the mineral dis-
tributions, the Navy is saying, "We want you to help us locate sea
moimts in connection with ASW, or something." Is there not danger
in this rather simple language if the head of any executive department
or agency is empowered to proceed without coordination ? There is
certainly no coordination provided for in this language.

22 OCEANOGRAPHY

Dr. Revelke. This is not the way I read this. You may very well
be right, but the way it is stated, I would regard it as permissive:

The Secretary of Commerce may conduct activities authorized by this Act in
comiection with projects designated as essential to the national interest by the
head of an executive department or agency.

In other words, the Coast Survey will have to fit whatever projects
are decided as essential by any executive head of a department or
agency into its overall plan.

Mr. Drewry. But the decision is in the Secretary of Commerce and
even though the request may ask the Department of Commerce to go
into a held which has heretofore been in the hands of the Depart-
ment of Defense, the Secretary of Commerce may, for instance, say,
"I would be delighted to ask the Coast Survey to do this deep ocean
job for you," and let us say it does relate to planktonic studies or some-
thing and then out comes the data and it is published far and wide and
the Department of Defense has not had their views requested on it
and there has been a disclosure of information that may be had best
not be so widely disseminated from a defense standpoint.

Dr. Revelle. Are you not changing the subject here? Maybe I do
not understand this.

Mr. Drewry. I say that decision for the Coast and Geodetic Survey
to depart from its present jurisdictional field is in the Secretary of
Commerce. It is his sole decision. Are there not some possible dan-
gers in that the Secretary of Commerce, a civilian, in making such
a decision, might run afoul of or result in the disclosure of informa-
tion that it would best remain classified at the time 'I

Dr. Re\tlle. I am sorry that I do not really understand this because
this is true of all scientific activities by any department of the
Government.

Are you saying that the National Science Foundation, for example,
or the Bureau of Standards or the present work of the Coast Survey on
magnetism and gravity, that this sliould not be done except by the
Department of Defense because of the danger of disclosure of infor-
mation which should be classified ?

Mr. Drewry. No; I am not saying that. As a matter of fact, my
questions are questions that have been put to me as objections to this
bill, and I wanted to get your views on them.

Dr. Revelle. I would think the same objection would apply to any
research conducted by any department of the Government or sup-
ported by any department of the Government, and this is a separate
matter.

Mr. Drewry. Or any private institution.

Dr. Revelle. Or any private institution. This is a separate prob-
lem, the problem of security, quite apart from the problem of doing
the work. I must say that I have never really quite understood how
this problem is handled in the Government. JFor example, su])pose a
discovery is made by the University of California, not at the Radia-
tion Laboratory but at some other laboratory of the university dealing
with nuclear physics. In that case, I think it is rather clear that the
Atomic Energy Commission does have the authority to classify it, but
this is the only field that I am aware of where such explicit authority
exists and, obviously, this is something which perhaps should be
clarified.

OCEANOGRAPHY 23

It seems to me it is beyond the scope of the present bill, however.
It is a general problem with all research carried out and supported
by the Government.

Mr. Drewry. Would it be well, if not in the statutory language,
at least in the report, to emphasize that the objective is to make possible
a coordinated long-range eti'ort i

Dr. Revelle. I think so ; yes ; absolutely.

Mr. Drewry. We have had this discussion of duplication. Duplica-
tion of capability is ditt'erent from duplication of performance and,
as I understand the purpose of this bill, it is to take niaximum ad-
vantage of the existence of parallel or duplicate capabilities.

Dr. Revelle. It seems to me that this is a very good point, Mr.
Drewry, that we want to be sure that the Coast Survey can do the
things that need to be done and what it actually does do depends upon
the Federal Council of Science and Technology and upon the
Congress.

Mr. Drewry. In fact, is not the essence of the Academy Committee's
approach that there lie ways and means found of using duplicate
capability to its maximum extent ?

Dr. R,e\t:lle. To its maximum advantage.

Mr. Drewry. As contrasted with the present separate boxes of
activity ?

Dr. Revelle. Just exactly.

Mr. Drewry. In other words, we would say that the passage of this
bill would not in any way change the actual relationships. It would
simply make it possible for the Coast Survey to do the things that it is
best at doing.

You have mentioned the possibilities of other functions than the
military functions of surveys. Has there been interest coming from
within the Government or without that broader surveying activities
take place from a tisheries' standpoint^

I^r. Revelle. Oh, yes; very much so. For example, the Fish and
Wildlife Service is right now supporting the Scripps Institution in a
program of compiling and plotting and charting all of the high places
on the sea floor in what we call tuna land, that is the area of the ocean
where our tuna fishermen operate.

Mr. Drewry. That is the Fish and Wildlife Service ?

Dr. Revelle. Yes.

Mr. Drewry. The Department of the Interior report on this bill has
no comment other than it has no objection to its enactment.

That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Miller. Mr. Bauer, do you have a question?

Mr. Baler. I have just one question that I would like to ask Dr.
Revelle.

You mentioned that the Federal Council has a coordination plan
with respect to oceanography.

Is that a published document ; do you know ? It has not been pre-
sented to this committee.

Dr. Revelle. No, sir; it has not been presented to this committee,
nor has it been published. It is something which has been done
during the last few weeks.

Mr. Bauer. Is it the intention of the executive department, do you
know, to advise the Congress of this plan?

24 OCEANOGRAPHY

Dr. Revelle. I am sure it is.

Mr. Bauer. Thank you. That is all I have.

Mr. Miller. Thank you very much, Doctor. We appreciate your
being here.

Dr. Revelle. I have a feeling that, as usual, I have talked too much^
but I am very grateful for the opportunity to have been here.

Mr. Miller. We look upon you as one of the foremost advocates in
this field and are very happy to have the benefit of your long experi-
ence in the field.

I have for the record, a letter addressed to me from Mr. Miles D.
Kennedy, Director of the American Legion Legislative Commission,
including Resolution 640, adopted at the 1959 National Convention of
the American Legion, endorsing oceanographic research and the work
of the Committee of the National Academy.

Without objection, we will make it part of the record.

(The documents follow:)

The American Legion,
Legislath^e Commission.
Washington, D.C., January 22, 1960.
Hon. George P. Miller,

Chairman, Special Subcommittee on Oceanography, House Merchant Murine
and Fisheries Committee, Old Hmise Office Building, Washington, D.C.

Dear Congressman Miller : Referring to the hearings scheduled to be held
today by the Special Subcommittee on Oceanography, I enclose a copy of Resolu-
tion No. 640 adopted at the 1959 National Convention of the American Legion,
having to do with oceanographic research.

While we are not asking for the privilege of the personal appearance of a rep-
resentative before your subcommittee, may I respectfully request that the en-
closed resolution be given consideration by the subcommittee, and incorporated
in the record of the hearings.

Thanking you for your courtesy and consideration, I am
Sincerely yours,

Miles D. Kennedy, Director.

1959 National Convention of the American Legion Held in Minneapolis,

Minn., August 24-27, 1959
Resolution No. 640.

Committee : National security commission.
Subject: Oceanographic research.

"Whereas the knowledge of the scientific phenomena related to the world's
oceans at present is extremely meager compared to their paramount importance ;
and

Whereas the world's oceans cover three-fourths of the earth's surface and
are daily increasing in importance to the destiny of the free world ; and

Whereas increased utilization of marine resources provide a promising foo<i
potential in the face of the explosive increases of the world's population ; and

Whereas the world's oceans provide a future source of atomic fuel, mineral
resources, and fresh water supply ; and

Whereas there is an increased mutual interdependence of the nations of the
free world for nonindigenous strategic materials in view of expanding tech-
nological applications ; and

Whereas the United States and the free world depend for sea lift of 99 percent
of all materials exported ; and

Whereas the United States depends largely upon utilization of the world's
oceans by its naval forces for its capability to cope with limited war and inter-
national crises all over the world ; and

Whereas the threat of enemy submarine launched missile attack against
the United States is now a reality ; and

Whereas there is an urgent need to provide a comprehensive, long-range
program for oceanographic research embodying an accelerated increase in
oceanographic research and survey ships, laboratories, schools, and scientific
personnel : Now, therefore, be it

OCEANOGRAPHY 25

Resolved, That the American Legion National Ck)nvention assembled in Min-
neapolis, Minn., August 24-27, 1959, endorses the overall 10-year plan for
oceanographic research as outlined on the report of the Committee of Ocea-
nography of the National Academy of Sciences and the U.S. Navy.

Mr. Miller. Rear Adm. H. Arnold Karo, Director, Coast and
Geodetic Survey.

STATEMENT OF REAR ADM. H. ARNOLD KARO, DIRECTOR, COAST
AND GEODETIC SURVEY

Admiral Karo. Mr. Chairman, you mentioned at the opening of
your meeting there the inability of Under Secretaiy Allen to appear.
He has also asked me to express his regrets because until 9 o'clock
this morning he had intended to appear when he got this hurry-up
call for this meeting over at the White House. He wanted me to
express his greetings to this committee and asked me to read the
statement that he prepared which I will do.

Mr. Miller. Thank you. You may proceed.

STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN J. ALLEN, JR., TINDER SECRETARY OF
COMMERCE FOR TRANSPORTATION, AS READ BY REAR ADM.
K. ARNOLD KARO

Admiral Karo. Mr. Chairman, members of the subcommittee, I wel-
come this opportunity to appear before you to support enactment of
H.R. 8611 and H.R. 8612. The counterparts of these bills, S. 2482
and S. 2483, were passed by the Senate without a dissenting vote on
August 19, 1959.

H.R. 8611 would amend the basic statute under which the Coast and
Geodetic Survey operates to provide that the activities which the
Survey is authorized to perform may be conducted —

without regard to the geographical limitations set forth herein in connection
with projects designated as essential in the national interest by the head of an
executive department or agency.

The purpose of H.R. 8611 is to remove any possible doubt as to the
availability of all the scientific resources of the Coast Survey wherever
they may be required in tlie national interest. During the more than
100^ years of its existence before 1947, the Coast and Geodetic Survey
compiled a notable history of scientific achievement and service to
the Nation pursuant to authority provided by a series of unrelated
statutory grants. In 1947, Congress enacted the comprehensive statute
under which the Coast Survey presently conducts its various activities.

Section 1 of this act authorizes the Coast Survey to conduct the
following activities, "in the United States, its territories and posses-
sions"; hydrographic and topographic surveys of coastal waters and
land areas, including surveys of offlying islands, banks, shoals, and
other offshore areas ; hydrographic and topographic surveys of lakes,
rivers, reservoirs, and other inland waters not otherwise provided
for by statute ; tide and current observations ; geodetic control surveys ;
field surveys for aeronautical charts; and geomagnetic, seismological,
gravity, and related geophysical measurements and investigations,
and observations for the determination of variation in latitude and
Ion frit ude.

26 OCEANOGRAPHY

In addition to other sections of the act which authorize us to perform
such other functions as the compilation and publication of aeronautical
and nautical charts, analysis, and prediction of tide and current data,
collection of geomagnetic data, section 4 provides :

To improve the efficiency of the Coast and Geodetic Survey and to increase
engineering and scientific knowledge, the Director is authorized to conduct
developmental work for the improvement of surveying and cartographic methods,
instruments, and equipments : and to conduct investigations and research in
geophysical sciences (including geodesy, oceanography, seismology, and
equipments ) .

There is no geographical limitation stated in section 4, nor is it
indicated in the committee report on the bill that such limitation was
intended in connection with the activities authorized by that section.

In any event, some micert^ainty lias arisen in connection with the
full availability, as a matter of law, of the scientific resources of the
Coast Survey to participate in the realization of our national goals*
The Senate Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce, in its
report recommending enactment of this legislation, summed, up the
purpose and need for this bill saying :

This bill is designed to remove present uncertainty as to the extent of possible
offshore activities by the Coast and Geodetic Survey by adding a new section 11
to the act of August 6, 1947 * * * to provide that the Secretary of Commerce
may conduct activities authorizetl by the act without regard to the geographical
limitations set forth therein, in connection with projects designated as essential
to the national interest by the head of an executive department or agency.

The intensive development of research programs in many fields of
scientific endeavor in comiection with military activities, particularly
with regard to the exj)loration of outer space ; and the pressing need
for expanded knowledge of the ocean's depths for submarine opera-
tion and defense as well as for possible new sources of food and min-
eral resources, have laid greatly increased demands upon the Coast
and Geodetic Sur^'-ey which are certain to multiply as the years go by.

In scientific fields that have taken on new and vital significance,
such as oceanography, geodesy, seismology, magnetism, and the like,
the scientific competence and experience of the Survey personnel must
be utilized to the fullest in the interest of survival. That this may
be made possible is the primaiy purpose of this bill.

It is not the purpose of this bill to have the Coast Survey assume
any function which Congi-ess has assigned to any other agency. It
is the purpose of this bill to assure that the Coast Survey's experi-
enced and trained scientific personnel will be able to contribute all
that the national interest may require in our search for new knowledge
in the areas in which the Coast Survey has developed competence.
This subcommittee has already, in its hearings last year, had outlined
for it the tremendous tasks wdiich our national interest requires be
undertaken in oceanography, geodesy, geomagnetism, and related
fields. Our national interest demands that we assure the full avail-
ability of every scientific resource we have to meet the challenges of
our time. It is for this reason that we urge the prompt favorable
consideration of this bill.

I have been authorized to state that the Bureau of the Budget has
authorized us to state that they favor this bill.

OCEANOGRAPHY 27

H.R.. 8612 affects both the Weather Bureau and the Coast and Geo-
detic Survey. Its purpose is to simplify achninistrative activities of
the two agencies.

Section 1 of the bill would authorize the Secretary of Commerce
to fix certain rates of pay for extra compensation for members of
crews of vessels when assigned to certain duties and to employees of
other agencies when performing certain duties for the Coast and
Geodetic Survey. At present the rates in question have to be incorpo-
rated in tlie annual appropriations. It also would correct certain
obsolete language.

Section 2 would authorize the appointment of employees to conduct
meteorological investigations in the Arctic region without regard to
civil-service laws at base rates not to exceed the maximum scheduled
rates for GS-12. It also authorizes the granting of extra compensa-
tion to employees of other agencies for taking and transmitting
meteorological observations.

A detailed explanation of H.R. 8612 was submitted when we trans-
mitted the proposal to Congress. There have been no objections
raised to its enactment. I will not take the time of the subcommittee
to repeat w^hat has already been included in our w^ritten presentation.
Enactment of this bill would be a valuable aid to efficient acbninis-
tration in areas involved.

Mr. Miller, I want to congratulate Secretary Allen, and congratu-
late you, for the presentation.

I have no particular questions.

Mr. Pelly?

Mr. Pelly. The reference w as made earlier by Dr. Revelle to 10 new
survey ships which are recommended by the Committee on Oceanog-
raphy. In this year's budget request from the President, I under-
stand there was a recommendation in the amomit of $6,900,000 for
three new survey vessels. Am I correct that those are just replace-
ments of existing vessels?

Admiral Karo. They have nothing to do with this progi\am, Mr.
Pelly. They are replacement of existing ships which are obsolete or
for some wdiich we have had to dispose of because we could not keep
them in operable condition any longer.

Mr. Pelly. These are just modern up-to-date serviceable vessels
and would tie in wdth any expanded work wdiich the service is called
upon to carry out, wdiether it is inside present limitations or not.
They are very good, new, modern vessels ?

Admiral Karo. That is right. As I said, they are class 3 vessels
which are the smallest type and would normally be devoted to inland-
water surveys like in Alaska or some of the sounds along the east coast.
They are not part of this expanded oceanographic program. They
are needed to carry on our present statutory responsibilities under
either concept.

Mr. Pelly. Thank you.

Mr. Miller. Mr. Dingell ?

Mr, Dingell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I was very much impressed by your statement.

There is one thing that I see too often around here and that is state-
ments without regard to the civil-service law and I assvmie that when

28 OCEANOGRAPHY

we make exception to the basic civil service law that there is a good
reason.

On page 2 of S. 2483, 1 see here :

conduct of meteorological investigations in the Arctic region without regard to
the civil-service laws and fix their compensation without regard to the Classi-
fication Act of 1949, * * * at base rates not to exceed the maximum scheduled
rate for GS-12—

How many people did you intend to have in these categories? Why
should we make this exempt from the civil-service laws ?

Admiral Karo. Mr. Congressman, that concerns the Weather Bu-
reau and not the Coast and Geodetic Survey.

Mr. Grubb, from the Weather Bureau, is here and, with your
permission, I will ask him to answer that.

STATEMENT OF R. C. GRUBB, ASSISTANT CHIEF, WEATHER
BUREAU, FOR ADMINISTRATION

Mr. Grubb. My name is R. C. Grubb. I am Assistant Chief of
the Weather Bureau for Administration.

Shortly after World War II, the Weather Bureau, in cooperation
with the Meteorological Department of Canada, established five
weather stations in the north regions of the Arctic near the Arctic
Circle. These five stations are operated on a cooperative basis be-
tween Canada and the United States. The duties of our employees
at these Arctic stations include not only the taking of meteorological
observations but the transmission of the observations. In other
words, they are communicators. Some of them act as cooks : some of
them act as mechanics ; some of them act as laborers ; so that it is im-
possible from a strictly civil service classification point of view to
write appropriate job descriptions for the work that these employees
would do or are doing.

As a result, shortly after World War II, a public law was enacted,
an act of June 2, 1948 (45 U.S.C. 327), which authorizes payment
of employees in the Arctic regions at rates outside of the Classi-
fication Act, and in the Appropriations Act each year is tabbed a dol-
lar limitation which may be paid these employees.

To answer your specific question regarding the number of employees
involved, we have about 5 employees at each of the 5 stations for a
total of 25. What is being proposed in section 2 of H.R. 8612 is,
rather than naming a maximum dollar amount, to tie the pay rate to
an established GS grade so that it will not be necessary for the Bureau
to submit to the Congress a request for change in the appropriations
language in the Weather Bureau's Appropriations Act when classified
rates change.

Mr. DiNGELL. Why should we not see to it that the Appropriations
Committee has an opportunity to scrutinize these each year ? Is there
any cogent reason for that ?

Mr. Grubb. No; except that for the type of work being done by
these employees in the Arctic, it is generally recognized by the Civil
Service Commission that the rates that are being paid there are. rea-
sonable and realistic in accordance with the established Government
pay scale.

OCEANOGRAPHY 29

What section 2 proposes is to authorize a maximum figure not to
exceed the top of the GS-12 grade.

' Mr. DiNGELL. Would it not be just as well to let it go on and be
handled through the Appropriations Committee with the fixing of
the rates being done by the Appropriations Committee each year?

Mr. Grubb. The rates, Mr. Dingell, are not fixed by the Appropria-
tions Committee. They fix a maximum figure and the Bureau, within
this maximum limitation, establishes the pay rates. At the present
time, the actual pay which we are giving these employees as base rates
up there is somewhat below the base rates authorized in the Appro-
priations Act.

Mr. Dingell. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Miller. Mr. Curtin.

Mr. Curtin. I would like to ask the gentleman just one more
question.

We read in the paper in the last week or two about a station that
had to be removed because the ice broke up under the personnel. Was
that one of your stations ?

Mr. Grubb. That was a station we were operating, I believe, in
cooperation with the National Science Foundation.

The ice floe broke up. We were taking obsei^ations up there some-
what comparable to the observations being taken at the five stations to
which I referred.

Mr. Curtin. That is all.

Mr. Miller. Mr. Oliver?

Mr. Oliver. Mr. Chairman, I want to say that I have enjoyed the
statement of the Under Secretary of Commerce, Mr. Allen, and of the
admiral here in this regard. I think it is a very forceful statement,
a brief one, right to the point.

I would like to pay tribute also to the persuasive powers of some-
body, either the Secretary or Under Secretary or youreelf, to get the
Bureau of the Budget to take an affirmative position in support of
this bill in view of the fact that this probably will call for expanded
appropriations ; will it not ?

Admiral Kj^ro. Yes, sir; and I think earlier some of the questions
were about the lack of controlled appropriations. I think that indi-
cates that the Bureau of the Budget feels that Congress, through the
executive branches, will have complete control of any appropriations
that will be made under this effort.

I would like also, if I may, to say something about this question
of duplication that has been mentioned here by some of the other
witnesses.

We cannot see why the enactment of the proposed legislation would
result in any more duplication of responsibility than already exists.

Section 7392 of title 10, United States Code, states that the Secre-
tary of the Navy under regulations as he prescribes may, (1) have the
Hydrographic Office prepare maps, charts, and nautical books re-
quired in navigation and have such materials published and furnished
to navigators.

Section 246 of the act of August 6, 194Y, authorizas the Coast and
Geodetic Survey to "compile, print and distribute charts of the United
States and its possessions."

:30 OCEANOGRAPHY

This is a duplication of authorization rather than responsibility in-
sofar as the coastal United States and territories are concerned.

We have also always had close coordination to see that there is no
duplication of effort.

I fail to see why, with the committees that will be set up to adminis-
ter the oceanographic phase of this bill, there will be any duplication.

After all, the oceans of the world are so big, as pointed out by Dr.
Revelle, that there is plenty of room that we can all operate and, as
long as we know where the other man is operating, there will be no
duplication of effort and this coordinating committee will see to that.

Mr. Oliver. Thank you very much. Admiral.

I have nothing further, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Miller. Mr. Counsel ?

Mr. Drewry. Admiral Karo, you mentioned that there would not
be any duplication. Have you had difficulties in the past stemming
from the concept that your capabilities were not specifically author-
ized to go beyond the coastal waters ? For instance, with the capabil-
ity that the Coast Survey has, undoubtedly you have been called on
in connection with Arctic programs and other things.

Have you encountered any difficulty in making yourself available
to those projects ?

Admiral Karo. Well, we have particularly in the Antarctic. We
have been asked to take on certain pliases of tliat. We turned it down.
We have had refusal on some other areas, not oceanography, when
we wanted to go afield and the Budget Bureau has not approved it
because of this gray area.

It is a matter of removing doubt as to where we can operate in the
national interest in case it is required.

Also, I might mention here, that I believe some mention was made
in the report on the other committee about an understanding between
the Coast Survey and the Defense Department which would allow
Defense to use this as necessary, but I also would like to quote that
this memorandum agreement says, "Within the limitations of the
Coast and Geodetic Sui*\^ey Enabling Act of 1947,'- which, if you take
the narrow interpretation, would not allow us to do the work required
in the national interest.

Mr. Drewry. So that, aside from the questions of whether this
will bring about any duplication, it actually will bring about in-
creased efficiency in your operations.

Admiral Ivaro. That is our expectation, yes, sir.

Mr. Drewry. And avoid steps and arrangements that otherwise
would be time consuming that you would have to go through ?

Admiral Karo. That is correct.

Mr. Drewry. I have just one more question.

In the other bill, the one concerning tlie crews of vessels, those are
the crews of what vessels ?

Admiral Karo. Our ships.

Mr. Drewry. It applies only to your ships ?

Admiral Karo. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Drewry. Would it apply in case of survey work which might
be done on an incidental basis by other ships ^ Is that contemplated?

Admiral Karo. No, this is strictly our own authorization where
■each year we have to include in our appropriation language author-
ity to pay, shall we say, the recordei"S and instnunent men, people we

OCEANOGRAPHY 31

train on a seasonal basis to do specific joibs for which they should be
■compensated something extra.

This is to pay a man for higher skills which he develops on a short-
time basis.

Mr. Drewry. That is all.

Mr. Miller. Mr. Bauer?

Mr. Bauer. I have just one question, Admiral Karo.

Is it not correct that the important thing in detennining the depth
■of the ocean and the bathymetry at any point is the location of the
ship a that particular time ?

Admiral Ivaro. That is correct. If you are going to have an ac-
curate bathymetric map and make it meaningful you have to know
where you are as well as how deep the water is.

Mr. Bauer. Am I also correct in assuming that if you were going
from a position A on the surface of the earth to position B, and would
traverse an unknown, uncharted, unexplored area of the sea, that it
would not make any difference between a great circle or a rhumb
line for the course you took ?

Admiral Karo. If you are after information, no.

Mr. Bauer. Thank you, sir.

Admiral Ivz\ro. But if you are interested in economy of operation,
yes.

Mr. Bauer. Wliich would be the cheapest ?

Admiral Karo. Naturally, if you are on a scientific investigation,
YOU would run a systematic series of lines so that they would have
definite relation to each other.

If you are on a rhumb line, that is strictly the shortest distance
between two ports, and I do not believe it has any bearing on the full
development of the scientific information that you are trying to get.

Mr. Bauer. You mean a great circle, not a rhumb line ?

Admiral Karo. Yes, sir.

Mr. Miller. Thank you veiy much, Admiral.

Admiral Karo. Thank you, sir.

Mr. Grubb. My only comments had to do with the payment of
payments in the Arctic region outside the Classification Act.

If you have any other questions, I will be glad to answer.

Mr. jVIiller. Thank you very much.

Capt. H. G. Munson, hydrographer of the Navy.

Captain, we welcome you. We are always happy to see you.

STATEMENT OF HENRY G. MUNSON, CAPTAIN, TSN, HYDROG-
RAPHER OF THE NAVY AND HYDROGRAPHER IN COMMAND
OF THE U.S. NAVY HYDROGRAPHIC OFFICE IN OCEANOGRAPHY

Captain Munson. Mr. Chairman, I am very appreciative of the op-
portunity to appear before you for the purpose of presenting the posi-
tion of the Department of Defense relative to the enactment of H.R.
8611, to remove geographical limitations on activities of the Coast and
Geodetic Survey.

The Department of Defense regrets that it does not favor enactment
of H.R. 8611 in its present form, but does believe that a satisfactory
compromise wording can be arrived at which will insure the objectives
of the bill as originally worded and yet meet the views of the Depart-
ment of Defense and that such a compromise is necessary.

32 OCEANOGRAPHY

The reason behind the position of the Department of Defense is
as follows :

(a) The bill, as worded, can conceivably result in a duplication of
statutory responsibilities in the field of hydrographic surveying and
charting in support of the safe navigation of the vessels of the U.S.
NaA-y and the U.S. Merchant Marine. It must be noted that the vol-
ume and coverage of the cartographic and navigational material pro-
duced on a worldwide basis by the U.S. Navy Hydrographic Office,
together with the numerous commercial sales outlets covering all
oceans of the world, are causing a large and increasing number of for-
eign merchant vessels to turn to the Hydrographic Office for hydro-
graphic and navigational information. A number of maritime na-
tions linked to the United States in the NATO and SEATO organiza-
tions are in part dependent upon the U.S. Xavy for emergency provi-
sion of this material. The Corps of Engineers of the U.S. Anny and
the Aeronautical Chart and Information Center of the U.S. Air Force
have overseas geodetic and charting responsibilities in support of the
missions of the Department of Defense.

(h) Overlapping responsibilities and functions, unless clearly de-
fined and agreed to with proper provision for coordination, are very
often unsatisfactory in that they lead to unnecessary duplication of
effort, and split responsibility so that the situation may arise where a
necessary task may remain unaccomplished because of a misunder-
standing as to wliich agency would perform it. One of the most im-
portant characteristics of cartographic and textual material prepared
for the use of the mariner is that changes in all categories are frequent
and continuing, hence very heavy effort must be continually expended
to insure that the information displayed is kept current and accurate.
Clearly duplicate or divided responsibility can lead to navigational
disaster from failure to publish a change essential to the safety of
navigation of a ship.

(c) Extra territorial survey operations of any description, except
those carried out in the open ocean beyond territorial limits, invariably
require diplomatic negotiations with a friendly foreign nation and
the securing of the consent and often the cooperation of a friendly
foreign power. Participation by agencies other than those having
clearly assigned statutory responsibility, and recognized internation-
ally by the corresponding cartographic activitie-s of the other power,
can result in confusion and dissatisfaction on the part of the other
nation. The confusion resulting from a friendly foreign power having
to deal with two U.S. agencies rather than one will result in difficul-
ties in negotiating the necessary diplomatic clearances if not refusal
of entry. In this connection, it is particularly pertinent to the j)rob-
lem to note that surveying and mapping in most foreign countries is
under the control and su]:)ervision of their military agencies and that,
from long establislied practice and common interest, the}' })refer to
deal with their military counterparts in the United States.

(d) A word must be said about the nonclassified international ex-
change of hydrographic material, a ])rocedure which is sponsored and
encouraged by the. International Hydrographic Bureau at Monaco
of which the I^inted States is a member. This })articular as])ect of
international relations is being implemented by the IT.S. Navy Hydro-
graphic Office in a manner which is extremely advantageous botli to
the United States and to the foreign countries concerned. Thei-e now

OCEANOGRAPHY 33

exists chart-exchang-e agreements with Canada, Western Germany, and
the Philippine Republic and within the month just past we have suc-
cessfully concluded a corresponding agreement with the Government
of Brazil.

These agreements provide for the exchange of unclassified naviga-
tional material which could only be acquired by the United States
at a stupendous cost, if at all.

Under the terms of this agreement the participating nations agree
to permit each other to copy each other's charts, with such modifica-
tion as they may wish to do, and to reproduce and sell them at the
cost established by the originating nation. The saving in time and
money to the United States and the time advantage gained in permit-
ting the participating countries to quickly issue to the naval and mer-
chant mariner new navigational charts is veiy great. The charts
carry an announcement that they are modified copies and that the
copying has been done with the consent of the other government, hence
it is seen that the prestige of the originating country and its financial
interests are fully protected. In effect, these agreements are resulting
in the pooling of the hydrographic ability of the countries party to
the agTeements to the mutual advantage of the navigators of not only
the two countries concerned but of third-party nations who may be
customers of the principles for the cartographic products.

I should like at this point to stress very strongly that these agree-
ments can only be executed by and with the complete support of the
Director, U.S. Coast and Geodetic Survey, inasmuch as the carto-
graphic material supplied to a foreign nation by the United States is
very often of Coast and Geodetic Survey origin. It is considered that
this cooperative support of the Coast and Geodetic Survey is but one
more indication of tlie pleasant and harmonious relation that has
existed between the U.S. Coast and Geodetic Survey and the U.S.
Navy Hydrographic Office for so many years.

If you will permit the digression, I take pleasure in informing
this committee that this relationship between the two agencies has
often been held up as a model of friendly and efficient cooperation
between two distinct Federal offices and it is a relationship which
Ijoth agencies are extremely proud of and most anxious to protect
and continue.

(e) Sui-^eying and charting operations in support of marme navi-
gation and classified military projects invariably call for offshore
logistic support which in many cases is provided by the cooperating
nation but more often than not is effected through the regular organ-
izations of the Department of Defense by means of the Military Sea
Transportation Service, the Military Air Transportation Service,
the replenislnnent vessels of the U.S. fleet, and the various overseas
bases of the Department of Defense. It is contended, therefore,
that the Department of Defense through its worldwide organization
and its contacts with the counterpart agencies in the foreign countries,
is completely and demonstratably ready to conduct survey efforts at
a great distance from the territorial waters of the United States in
the most efficient and economical manner.

Moreover, the Department of Defense, through its system of mili-
tary attaches attached to the staffs of the diplomatic representatives
of the U.S. Government throughout the world, is in the best position
to furnish infonnation as to the status of work in foreign countries,

34 OCEANOGRAPHY

to ad%dse on what is being done by local agencies which can con-
ceivably be coordinated with and support the work of the Depart-
ment of Defense, and to make the necessary diplomatic and liaison
arrangements when coordinated effort with a foreign power is of ad-
vantage to the interests of the United States.

In this connection, I woidd like to point out that the Department
of Defense through the three agencies of the Army Map Service,
the Aeronautical Chart and Information Center, and the U.S. Navy
Hydrographic Office, hold by far the world's largest collection of
cartographic and mapping data in the world; a treasury of geo-
graphic, geodetic, and geophysical information which is of vital im-
portance to the defense of our country.

The Department of Defense is most fully cognizant of the vital
importance of the task confronting this Nation in increasing the
oceanographic effort of the United States. It is considered that Dr.
Harrison Brown's Committee on Oceanography, sponsored by the Na-
tional Academy of Science, has performed a most important service
to the Nation in creating the plan for an expanded U.S. oceano-^
graphic effort. The Department of Defense can only express its:
heartiest applause for this work. It is realized that the plan pro-
posed, which is now before the Congress for study, authorization, and
implementation, is monumental and that the survey task alone will
far exceed the ability of any one agency of the Government to carry
out. It is clear, however, that the bulk of the effort in the oceanic
offshore surveys will have to be divided between the Navy Depart-
ment and the U.S. Coast and Geodetic Sui-^^ey and, speaking on be-
half of the Navy, I say that we most heartily welcome this forthcom-
ing partnership with this able cooperating agency. It is clear from
a study of the enabling laws of the U.S. Coast and Geodetic Survey
that a change must be effected to enable them to participate in this
vital national effort.

For the above-stated reasons the Department of Defense, therefore,
strongly recommends that H.R. 8611 be modified to include state-
ments Avhich will insure proper and effective coordination of any l)ro-
posed extra territorial work by the Department of Commerce with the
Secretaiy of Defense and other interested Federal agencies in order
to insure nonduplication of responsibilities of the otlier departments
of the Government and, contrariwise, to guarantee that the Secre-
tary of Commerce has full authority to can-y out liis expected i"e-
sponsibilities under the national Oceanographic program.

The above statement is a coordinated view of the Department of
Defense and I am the authorized spokesman of tlie Department of
Defense insofar as this legislation is concerned. The Bureau of the
Budget advises that they strongly support this bill.

Mr. Mii.LKR. Thank you very much, Admiral. Excuse me. Cap-
tain— it ought to be "Admiral."

Captain Munson. Time must go by.

Mr. Miller. YoU do suggest that there is clarifying language
needed in the bill?

Ca])tain Minson. AVe do, sir, entirely. We like aiul vote for the
authority. It is clear from reading the laws that they are in a hazy
position.

Ml-. Miller. Have you or has the Department of Defense any sug-
gestions to amend the bill ?

OCEANOGRAPHY 35

Captain Munson. Not that we are prepared to offer at the present
time, sir, althongh I think that, should the committee request it, the
Department of Defense stands ready to render draftino; service.

Mr. Miller. I think, at your convenience or as quickly as you can^
pei'haps tills should be submitted to the counsel who can get together
with the people from the Navy and the Department of Commerce
and see if we cannot woi'k out something that will be mutually sat-
isfactory to all concerned.

Captain Munson. We stand ready to assist you.

Mr. Miller. This becomes now a lot of semantics and legal hodge-
podge which most of us are not capable of understanding.

If you would do that. Captain, I think it would further the matter
a great deal.

Captain Munson. We stand ready to do that, sir.

Mr. Miller. I am very happy to see this type of statement coming
in from the Navy.

Mr. Pelly ?

Mr. Pelly, I would like to clarify, Captain, in my own mind as
to just exactly what your objection would be.

As I understand, the system that the Defense Department has for
interchange of information is one of purely a military nature?

Captain Munson. No, sir. I was really referring to open hydro-
graphic information which benefits all mariners. It is true that the
Department of Defense does have, let me say, classified exchange ar-
rangements of certain information, but I did not contemplate that in
this statement.

Mr. Pelly, There is an interchange of a purely scientific nature ; is
there not ?

Captain Munson. There is, but that, I might say, is a third class
and is quite open and free and is a matter which is accelerated.

Mr. Pelly. Would you judge from Admiral Karo's statement that
there would be no objection to a clarification in the law ?

Captain Munson. Not the slightest.

Mr. Pelly. Therefore, the legislation with this little change or two
would satisfy both services?

Captain Munson. That was precisely my understanding of his
statement.

Mr. Pelly. That is all, Mr, Chairman.

Mr. Miller. Mr. Dingell ?

Mr. Dingell. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Miller. Counsel?

Mr. Drewry. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Miller. Mr. Bauer ?

Mr. Bauer. I have no questions.

Mr. Miller. Thank you very much. Captain Munson.

I thank all the witnesses who have come here this morning. This
has been a very interesting session and I think, with a little coopera-
tion, we can get along.

If there is nothing further, we will stand adjourned until the call
of the Chair.

(Whereupon, at 11 :45 a.m., the subcommittee adjourned, subject
to the call of the Chair. )

X