1 00:00:13,81 --> 00:00:18,74 Thank you very much indeed. And thank you for coming along it's great to see so 2 00:00:18,75 --> 00:00:24,85 many people have. Our talk for a bit and then. We have a have 3 00:00:24,86 --> 00:00:29,79 a conversation some questions. And then if there's time I think you should all we 4 00:00:29,80 --> 00:00:34,90 should all right work across hot coals in our back feet using only the power of 5 00:00:34,91 --> 00:00:41,86 positive thinking to. Keep from burning. When I began 6 00:00:41,87 --> 00:00:47,66 doing the reporting for this for this book which is in brief about what's wrong 7 00:00:47,67 --> 00:00:51,51 with the idea in the culture of positive thinking and what the alternatives might 8 00:00:51,52 --> 00:00:56,80 be. I want to make a vacation of femina in Texas. Part of 9 00:00:56,81 --> 00:01:01,96 a series called Get Motivated I'm trying to pronounce the affirmation point and the 10 00:01:01,97 --> 00:01:07,31 name. One of the speakers was a guy called Robert Schuller who is 11 00:01:07,32 --> 00:01:11,37 a veteran self-help author and also in his other job he's the founder of the 12 00:01:11,38 --> 00:01:15,84 largest church in America constructed entirely out of glass. And he told 13 00:01:15,85 --> 00:01:20,34 a fit if we wanted to six it's an achievement he told us if we wanted to succeed if 14 00:01:20,35 --> 00:01:25,60 we wanted guaranteed success all we had to do was to eliminate the word impossible 15 00:01:25,73 --> 00:01:30,82 from my vocabulary in other words if you focus only on things working out and 16 00:01:30,86 --> 00:01:34,55 that's how to make sure that things will indeed work out 17 00:01:36,95 --> 00:01:41,52 a few months later I saw on the news that his church had filed for bankruptcy. 18 00:01:44,91 --> 00:01:45,54 Which is 19 00:01:45,58 --> 00:01:50,90 a word he evidently failed to eliminate from his vocabulary. Actually since this 20 00:01:50,91 --> 00:01:53,15 book went to the printer has since been printed just 21 00:01:53,31 --> 00:01:56,91 a couple of months ago someone told me I found out and confirmed it but get 22 00:01:56,92 --> 00:02:03,92 motivated itself has filed for bankruptcy. I want to be quite seriously clear I'm 23 00:02:03,93 --> 00:02:07,40 not knocking people for going bankrupt I'm 24 00:02:07,41 --> 00:02:11,76 a newspaper journalist so I have to think hard about the possibility of bankruptcy 25 00:02:12,34 --> 00:02:18,65 but clearly something is wrong with these guaranteed methods of success when they 26 00:02:18,66 --> 00:02:25,62 don't guarantee success for the people who promote them I want to talk 27 00:02:25,63 --> 00:02:29,47 first today about something that is far less amusing about something really awful 28 00:02:29,48 --> 00:02:34,57 actually which is what happened. The tragedy that unfolded on Mount Everest in one 29 00:02:34,58 --> 00:02:38,66 thousand nine hundred six if you read John Krakow excellent book Into Thin Air 30 00:02:38,67 --> 00:02:43,29 you'll know all about this in one thousand nine hundred sixty eight climbers died 31 00:02:43,30 --> 00:02:47,91 in one twenty four hour period on Mount Everest and fifteen died over the course of 32 00:02:47,92 --> 00:02:53,88 that summer's climbing season this was an extraordinary record breaking death toll 33 00:02:53,88 --> 00:02:58,67 and all the more extraordinary for the fact that. By one thousand nine hundred six 34 00:02:58,68 --> 00:03:00,06 climbing Everest was essentially 35 00:03:00,07 --> 00:03:03,35 a known quantity today if you have the money and you're willing to put in the 36 00:03:03,36 --> 00:03:09,78 training you can pay people to take you to the summit regardless of. Your 37 00:03:09,79 --> 00:03:14,37 specific level of expertise and yet still as recently as one thousand nine hundred 38 00:03:14,38 --> 00:03:19,61 six there was there was this appalling toll what's strange is that nobody's ever 39 00:03:19,65 --> 00:03:25,62 really been able to explain since then. What happened. There was no 40 00:03:26,21 --> 00:03:28,43 extremely unusual weather there were 41 00:03:28,44 --> 00:03:32,28 a few problems things like guide ropes that hadn't been put in the right places but 42 00:03:32,46 --> 00:03:37,17 nothing that really accounts for what unfolded and Jon Krakauer has some 43 00:03:37,18 --> 00:03:41,82 interesting insights in his book about the way the personalities of some of the 44 00:03:41,83 --> 00:03:46,40 climbers could have contributed to what happened but even that doesn't get you to 45 00:03:46,44 --> 00:03:49,68 an explanation just briefly if you don't know what happened is that there was 46 00:03:49,69 --> 00:03:50,90 essentially a traffic jam at 47 00:03:50,91 --> 00:03:54,32 a place called the Hillary Step A couple of hundred feet below the summit of 48 00:03:54,33 --> 00:03:58,21 Everest all these climbers became bottlenecks and bunched together so it 49 00:03:58,22 --> 00:04:03,59 interrupted their smooth progress to the top and back down again and instead of 50 00:04:03,60 --> 00:04:07,60 following the protocol which says that if you're delayed by certain amount you have 51 00:04:07,61 --> 00:04:12,59 to turn back and abandon the attempt these very experienced climbers pushed on and 52 00:04:12,60 --> 00:04:16,69 on despite the delay the Coast Guard said they should have turned back if they 53 00:04:16,70 --> 00:04:22,18 hadn't if they couldn't reach the summit by I think it's two pm is the latest of 54 00:04:22,19 --> 00:04:26,62 the times they were working too and yet many of them ended up reaching the summit 55 00:04:26,63 --> 00:04:30,01 much later than that which meant that they defended the mountain in darkness and 56 00:04:30,02 --> 00:04:35,72 the worst of Everest weather and that's when. Tragedy struck and still nobody 57 00:04:36,21 --> 00:04:42,65 really knows why it happened. But want to find out if there was somebody 58 00:04:43,06 --> 00:04:46,69 else in the area that day not on the mountain but in the foothills who I think at 59 00:04:46,70 --> 00:04:51,97 first glance is the least likely person to have anything remotely useful to 60 00:04:51,98 --> 00:04:56,55 contribute to understanding. An incident like this he was 61 00:04:56,56 --> 00:05:01,62 a burned out stockbroker from Indiana called Christopher cave and he was on 62 00:05:01,63 --> 00:05:07,36 a hiking holiday because he just wanted to recharge his batteries. But he was very 63 00:05:07,37 --> 00:05:11,97 well with well this was happening really quite close by and the moment he 64 00:05:11,98 --> 00:05:15,51 discovered about this tragedy he came across people who had been involved in the 65 00:05:15,52 --> 00:05:21,50 rescue mission and spoke to them it really haunted him and nor to him and he told 66 00:05:21,51 --> 00:05:26,59 me that it was basically as if it had happened to members' own family the degree to 67 00:05:26,60 --> 00:05:32,04 which it weighed on his mind he ended up dedicating years of his professional life 68 00:05:32,05 --> 00:05:37,24 in his in his next career to to understanding what could have gone wrong that day 69 00:05:37,37 --> 00:05:42,15 and what really haunted him about it was that it reminded him of 70 00:05:42,19 --> 00:05:48,52 a phenomenon that he'd observed many many times. In the corporate world that he had 71 00:05:48,53 --> 00:05:52,36 become so sick of what would happen is that a corporate leader or 72 00:05:52,37 --> 00:05:57,61 a chief executive would announce some big ambitious goal for that for the company 73 00:05:58,30 --> 00:06:05,11 he or she would commit to it very publicly. Try to get all the employees to 74 00:06:05,11 --> 00:06:09,57 commit to it motivate everybody to be completely focused on this on this big vision 75 00:06:09,89 --> 00:06:14,26 and then slowly evidence would start to creep in that maybe it hadn't been 76 00:06:14,49 --> 00:06:18,71 a wise goal maybe it was going to cause problems elsewhere in the in the company 77 00:06:18,72 --> 00:06:22,08 maybe it was going to even cause the company to collapse and of course that would 78 00:06:22,08 --> 00:06:26,82 make everybody feel very nervous and anxious and uncertain and worried but here's 79 00:06:26,83 --> 00:06:32,48 where it gets interesting because they couldn't stand those feelings because they 80 00:06:32,49 --> 00:06:38,91 were so allergic to the feelings of uncertainty and anxiety and insecurity that 81 00:06:39,03 --> 00:06:43,78 what they ended up doing was actually committing harder to the goal to try to make 82 00:06:43,79 --> 00:06:50,77 those feelings go away and that is when things would go would go wrong so 83 00:06:50,78 --> 00:06:55,41 Chris Kay's now is an expert on the organizational behavior at George Washington 84 00:06:55,45 --> 00:07:00,04 University and I think he probably does understand how annoying it is when he when 85 00:07:00,05 --> 00:07:03,80 he talks about this and writes about this for mountaineers to hear him say you know 86 00:07:03,81 --> 00:07:03,98 here's 87 00:07:03,99 --> 00:07:08,54 a lesson from the world of business that you can use to help you climb mountains. 88 00:07:09,67 --> 00:07:11,88 But the interesting thing is it turns out there actually is quite 89 00:07:11,89 --> 00:07:17,82 a lot of evidence that the same psychological pattern happens among mountaineers he 90 00:07:18,23 --> 00:07:19,79 the study from one to sixty three in which 91 00:07:19,80 --> 00:07:21,97 a team of American psychologists had followed 92 00:07:21,98 --> 00:07:26,25 a team of American climbers who were attempting to summit Everest there were 93 00:07:26,26 --> 00:07:30,87 actually very dedicated psychologists to went as far as base camp with with the 94 00:07:30,88 --> 00:07:36,89 climbers they have them keep very detailed diaries of their planning their motions 95 00:07:36,90 --> 00:07:43,74 everything and then. And analyze them later and. A subgroup of these climbers 96 00:07:43,75 --> 00:07:44,83 decided to try 97 00:07:44,84 --> 00:07:50,25 a very dangerous route to ascend Everest Riba haven't successfully been achieved 98 00:07:50,26 --> 00:07:55,06 before and when their diaries run live later this same pattern could be happening. 99 00:07:56,42 --> 00:07:59,47 They've got some problematic information about the route that they were planning to 100 00:07:59,48 --> 00:08:03,18 take maybe something to do with weather patterns or the inadequacy of their 101 00:08:03,19 --> 00:08:07,01 equipment that would make them feel uncertain and anxious but then to raise those 102 00:08:07,02 --> 00:08:13,04 feelings of uncertainty and anxiety. They would commit even harder to that plan 103 00:08:14,90 --> 00:08:17,29 what comes out of these it happened is that they've made the go into 104 00:08:17,30 --> 00:08:23,12 a part of the identities it wasn't just that they wanted to succeed at this project 105 00:08:23,13 --> 00:08:24,08 anymore it was 106 00:08:24,12 --> 00:08:28,08 a part of who they were and they couldn't tolerate the idea that who they were was 107 00:08:28,09 --> 00:08:33,40 so infected with uncertainty and insecurity so it's not about how they took that 108 00:08:33,44 --> 00:08:36,46 incoming negative information and sort of alchemize that into 109 00:08:36,47 --> 00:08:42,97 a reason to do the opposite then you might think to try harder to achieve the goal 110 00:08:43,76 --> 00:08:47,03 one of the American mountaineers who watched the bottleneck in one thousand six 111 00:08:47,71 --> 00:08:52,12 through telescope from lower down the mountain describes this effect that the 112 00:08:52,13 --> 00:08:57,88 summit exerts has almost literally I mean magnetic He says it draws people on they 113 00:08:57,89 --> 00:09:02,38 no longer think rationally they they become consumed with the goal and as he says 114 00:09:02,71 --> 00:09:05,02 on a good day you'll get away with it and on 115 00:09:05,03 --> 00:09:11,81 a bad day you'll die. Now their claim is that nine hundred sixty three did get away 116 00:09:11,82 --> 00:09:18,77 with it and that that route was was successfully followed and I 117 00:09:18,78 --> 00:09:21,50 think Chris Kay's would admit that we can't ever know for certain that that is 118 00:09:21,51 --> 00:09:25,31 exactly the dynamic that explained what happened in one thousand nine hundred six 119 00:09:26,41 --> 00:09:29,57 but what I want to try to draw out of this is that I think it's 120 00:09:29,58 --> 00:09:32,71 a principle that goes a long way towards explaining on 121 00:09:32,72 --> 00:09:36,85 a psychological level what goes wrong with all sorts of our efforts to become happy 122 00:09:36,86 --> 00:09:40,79 or successful whatever that definition is why have you defined that whether it's 123 00:09:40,80 --> 00:09:44,62 climbing mountains or making lots of money or building 124 00:09:44,63 --> 00:09:50,80 a happy family or just feeling good with so allergic to feeling uncertainty or 125 00:09:50,81 --> 00:09:57,37 negativity and security failure. That we focus about doing everything we can to 126 00:09:57,38 --> 00:10:04,00 stamp those feelings out and then that becomes self sabotaging and. Achieving the 127 00:10:04,04 --> 00:10:07,78 opposite of the effect that we wanted and leading to the very fate that we were 128 00:10:07,79 --> 00:10:12,29 struggling to avoid So what I tried to do in this book primarily was to explore the 129 00:10:12,30 --> 00:10:16,97 opposite of that this idea that I label the negative path to happiness. 130 00:10:19,37 --> 00:10:20,26 I was struck to meet 131 00:10:20,27 --> 00:10:22,91 a very British idea but then I come to Seattle and everyone says it's 132 00:10:22,92 --> 00:10:26,53 a very very Seattle idea in 133 00:10:26,57 --> 00:10:32,62 a short time I'm going to California though so then we will test it out. On some 134 00:10:32,63 --> 00:10:35,41 real positive people anyway this is 135 00:10:35,42 --> 00:10:39,33 a family of ideas that goes back to ancient philosophical and spiritual traditions 136 00:10:39,34 --> 00:10:45,52 but it's also very much being supported by by modern experimental psychological 137 00:10:45,53 --> 00:10:49,05 research according to which we actually need to think about turning towards 138 00:10:49,09 --> 00:10:54,13 uncertainty and insecurity and other forms of negativity even harnessing pessimism 139 00:10:54,17 --> 00:10:59,75 and more generally the power of negative thinking instead of trying to stamp it out 140 00:10:59,79 --> 00:11:06,77 at all costs. So this exterior end of positive thinking culture that 141 00:11:06,78 --> 00:11:12,08 I began by by talking about which is endemic I think in America and to some extent 142 00:11:12,09 --> 00:11:17,69 British corporate culture. A barber Ehrenreich in her excellent book Bright sided 143 00:11:17,70 --> 00:11:19,50 makes a fairly strong case that it played 144 00:11:19,51 --> 00:11:26,50 a significant role in the financial crisis I mean I still 145 00:11:26,54 --> 00:11:30,25 think that most people can see that there's something not quite right about 146 00:11:30,26 --> 00:11:34,82 a lot of the ideas of of this of this culture for example there's been some really 147 00:11:34,83 --> 00:11:38,60 interesting research recently into self-help affirmations you know those peppy 148 00:11:38,61 --> 00:11:43,20 phrases that you're supposed to say to yourself in the mirror. I'm good enough I'm 149 00:11:43,21 --> 00:11:48,92 smart enough and gosh darn it people like me. But they make that actually you have 150 00:11:48,93 --> 00:11:55,49 studied this now and. You know experimental controls and it turns out of people who 151 00:11:55,50 --> 00:11:59,78 already have low self-esteem who are asked to repeat to themselves the phrase I am 152 00:11:59,79 --> 00:12:06,39 a lovable person and not feeling well. Because it provokes 153 00:12:06,40 --> 00:12:11,84 counter-arguments you know you tell yourself. You tell yourself I'm 154 00:12:11,85 --> 00:12:16,57 a regular person and. You just can suddenly think of all the reasons that you're 155 00:12:16,58 --> 00:12:23,04 not. Another aspect of this culture is visualising your goals visualizing success 156 00:12:23,05 --> 00:12:29,37 and seeing visibly picturing everything working out. And we learn that there are 157 00:12:29,37 --> 00:12:34,58 some problems with that as well contrary to my least favorite self-help book The 158 00:12:34,59 --> 00:12:37,33 Secret by the way I saw 159 00:12:37,42 --> 00:12:42,17 a car as if you probably know you probably know the secret but the thesis of that 160 00:12:42,18 --> 00:12:44,46 book. Is that there's 161 00:12:44,47 --> 00:12:51,09 a is that there's an ancient piece of wisdom that is the key to. Happiness and 162 00:12:51,10 --> 00:12:57,79 Success that was passed down kept secret and passed down from. Our stock all to 163 00:12:57,80 --> 00:13:03,62 Jesus to. Leonardo da Vinci to Einstein. 164 00:13:05,40 --> 00:13:06,09 To a T.V. 165 00:13:06,10 --> 00:13:12,49 Producer from Australia who then wrote the book. I don't know about you but I don't 166 00:13:12,50 --> 00:13:19,40 think that happened. Anyway And there's a fascinating experiment at N.Y.U. 167 00:13:19,89 --> 00:13:26,65 Not long ago. Participants were rendered mildly dehydrated and and 168 00:13:26,66 --> 00:13:31,77 then one group was asked to visualise drinking and I see refreshing glass of water 169 00:13:33,00 --> 00:13:36,24 the other groups were asked to do things you know as different things as controls 170 00:13:37,01 --> 00:13:39,56 and then or G. Levels were measured with blood pressure being used as 171 00:13:39,57 --> 00:13:42,81 a proxy for that and it turns out what you want to visualize has experienced 172 00:13:42,82 --> 00:13:48,63 a great a reduction in their levels of energy. Which is 173 00:13:48,64 --> 00:13:52,40 a way of seems to be that they're actually becoming less motivated to achieve their 174 00:13:52,41 --> 00:13:56,47 goal having convinced themselves perhaps on some subconscious level that they've 175 00:13:56,58 --> 00:14:01,23 that they've already achieved it sometimes when I bring up this kind of anti gall 176 00:14:01,55 --> 00:14:06,61 stuff people mention. The Yale study of gold which if you've ever read any of these 177 00:14:06,63 --> 00:14:11,80 books on the importance of goal setting and and in achievement you'll. You'll 178 00:14:11,81 --> 00:14:14,02 probably have heard of because it's everywhere in it and it and it's 179 00:14:14,03 --> 00:14:18,97 a study that found in one hundred fifty three researchers are the graduating class 180 00:14:18,98 --> 00:14:23,64 of you know university which of them had specific written down goals for the rest 181 00:14:23,65 --> 00:14:28,24 of their lives and only three percent of them said they have twenty years later the 182 00:14:28,71 --> 00:14:33,91 research has tracked them down and found that that three percent accumulated more 183 00:14:33,92 --> 00:14:39,37 financial wealth than the other ninety seven percent combined It's an incredible 184 00:14:39,38 --> 00:14:43,67 argument for the importance of goal setting and it is I'm not getting it in scores 185 00:14:43,68 --> 00:14:46,33 of books it turns out there's 186 00:14:46,34 --> 00:14:51,74 a methodological floor with the study. Which is that it's completely made up. 187 00:14:56,62 --> 00:15:00,100 Just doesn't exist and if you ring up after this to your university like I did and 188 00:15:01,01 --> 00:15:03,72 get them to sort of search the archives they said well first of all they side 189 00:15:03,73 --> 00:15:07,41 because they get us about all the time. And then they say in any way that they're 190 00:15:07,42 --> 00:15:12,50 going to check again and and they and they find nothing but I still think that this 191 00:15:12,51 --> 00:15:16,00 kind of stuff affirmations visualization they are an easy target it's 192 00:15:16,01 --> 00:15:20,23 a fun target but it's an easy target and I what I really want to suggest is that to 193 00:15:20,24 --> 00:15:24,45 some extent we were caught in this this trap that one of the philosophers I write 194 00:15:24,46 --> 00:15:31,16 about calls the cult of optimism. That maybe in that in such extreme and ridiculous 195 00:15:31,17 --> 00:15:36,76 ways but on some level we all fall victim to this idea that happiness excess means 196 00:15:37,04 --> 00:15:41,22 stamping out the negative asserting positive emotions at all cost persuading 197 00:15:41,23 --> 00:15:46,79 ourselves that everything must and is going to work out for the best and the 198 00:15:46,80 --> 00:15:51,90 alternative perspective on or less this is negative seems to me very neatly summed 199 00:15:51,91 --> 00:15:52,08 up in 200 00:15:52,09 --> 00:15:56,59 a quote that is often attributed to Edith Wharton and that is if only we'd stop 201 00:15:56,60 --> 00:15:58,06 trying so hard to be happy we can have 202 00:15:58,07 --> 00:16:03,95 a pretty good time and I'm glad I discovered two weeks the firm I got went to the 203 00:16:03,96 --> 00:16:09,73 printers but she didn't actually say that. I don't know who did lots of people on 204 00:16:09,74 --> 00:16:15,05 the internet think she did but it's I think it's. A very valid insight anyway so in 205 00:16:15,06 --> 00:16:17,50 the rest of what I've got to say I'll just maybe sketch out 206 00:16:17,51 --> 00:16:21,100 a few of the stopping points that I that I made on this the so-called negative path 207 00:16:22,01 --> 00:16:25,93 this idea that there's an alternative to the cult of optimism that might actually 208 00:16:25,94 --> 00:16:31,96 prove more fruitful. Because it turns out that this focus on positive thinking that 209 00:16:31,97 --> 00:16:36,79 seems so imbedded in self-help culture and corporate culture is 210 00:16:36,80 --> 00:16:40,69 a very young historical phenomenon goes back a century and 211 00:16:40,70 --> 00:16:45,08 a bit really last year was the sixtieth anniversary of the first publication of The 212 00:16:45,09 --> 00:16:50,01 Power of Positive Thinking which didn't begin everything but was what was there in 213 00:16:50,02 --> 00:16:55,80 the early days if you go further back in almost any historical spiritual 214 00:16:56,30 --> 00:17:01,57 philosophical traditions you find that it isn't really about that. At all 215 00:17:04,68 --> 00:17:05,94 so I discovered for example that there's 216 00:17:05,95 --> 00:17:10,95 a whole underground community of modern day stoic not in the sense that we use that 217 00:17:10,96 --> 00:17:17,45 word in Britain today which means repressing your emotions. And refusing to admit 218 00:17:17,46 --> 00:17:23,25 to them but rather drawing on the ancient Stoics of Greece and Rome people like 219 00:17:23,26 --> 00:17:24,72 epic teachers and Seneca who had 220 00:17:24,73 --> 00:17:27,44 a much more accommodating approach towards negative emotions it's 221 00:17:27,45 --> 00:17:31,74 a huge philosophy with many many layers but but one of the most interesting 222 00:17:32,20 --> 00:17:36,17 techniques is what they called the premeditation of evils you could think of it as 223 00:17:36,18 --> 00:17:40,42 negative visualization instead of focusing on the best case scenario they say 224 00:17:40,43 --> 00:17:44,68 sometimes it's best to focus on the worst case scenario and in modern psychology 225 00:17:44,69 --> 00:17:51,42 this is labelled defensive pessimism so we usually respond to anxiety or worry with 226 00:17:51,43 --> 00:17:55,70 reassurance whether it's ourselves or somebody else you know you try to bolster the 227 00:17:55,71 --> 00:17:59,18 belief that everything's going to turn out OK but there's 228 00:17:59,19 --> 00:18:05,84 a. Double edged sword because in doing so you also implicitly reinforce the 229 00:18:05,85 --> 00:18:10,71 implication that it would be absolutely catastrophic if things didn't turn out OK 230 00:18:12,15 --> 00:18:14,56 And so the stakes I will do the opposite think through in 231 00:18:14,57 --> 00:18:19,03 a calm and sober way how badly things could could really go so what happens first 232 00:18:19,04 --> 00:18:22,49 of all as you usually conclude that they could go 233 00:18:22,50 --> 00:18:29,27 a lot less badly than your anxiety had been. Suggesting that our But Alice 234 00:18:29,87 --> 00:18:32,78 psychologist who is heavily influenced by the Starks who died 235 00:18:32,79 --> 00:18:37,39 a few years ago but I interviewed for this book used to say that the worst thing 236 00:18:37,40 --> 00:18:43,46 about any event in the future is usually your exaggerated belief in its horror and 237 00:18:43,47 --> 00:18:48,66 so if you practice the premeditation of the evils that worry becomes. Finite maybe 238 00:18:48,67 --> 00:18:51,76 still there's a good reason to be very worried but it's still 239 00:18:51,77 --> 00:18:55,97 a finite worry instead of an infinite worry and at the same time as Seneca says 240 00:18:55,98 --> 00:18:58,40 it'll have another advantage which it will make which is that it will make you 241 00:18:58,41 --> 00:19:02,73 appreciate what you what you have we hear all the time these days about the 242 00:19:02,74 --> 00:19:04,71 importance of gratitude and happiness and this is 243 00:19:04,72 --> 00:19:11,35 a finding that is being backed up all the time. In the research setting but it's 244 00:19:11,36 --> 00:19:17,16 kind of hard to do I find anyway might just be my problem but I. Sent to point out 245 00:19:17,17 --> 00:19:17,55 that actually 246 00:19:17,56 --> 00:19:23,38 a very good straightforward route towards feeling gratitude is to imagine that 247 00:19:23,39 --> 00:19:28,32 everything you enjoy today your relationships your possessions you may one day lose 248 00:19:29,33 --> 00:19:34,75 I mean and ultimately in the sense of one point you will will lose he says you 249 00:19:34,76 --> 00:19:38,24 should look at your closest relationships not as one of those things that cannot be 250 00:19:38,25 --> 00:19:40,76 taken away but as though it were a jar or 251 00:19:40,77 --> 00:19:46,94 a crystal goblet meaning fragile and charitable and you can even take this to the 252 00:19:46,95 --> 00:19:50,78 next level and deliberately bring about the worst case scenario in certain contexts 253 00:19:50,79 --> 00:19:55,04 to prove to yourself that you could cope are ballasts used to say that if you're 254 00:19:55,05 --> 00:19:58,83 really scared of embarrassing yourself and as 255 00:19:58,84 --> 00:20:04,15 a British person I'm genetically. Really scared of embarrassing myself you should 256 00:20:04,16 --> 00:20:08,09 try balancing yourself deliberately and he he recommended these things we call 257 00:20:08,10 --> 00:20:13,04 shame attacking exercises and he gave me the. He gave me this prescription 258 00:20:13,08 --> 00:20:18,33 basically but I'm travelling on the London Underground. And he suggested the New 259 00:20:18,34 --> 00:20:23,27 York subway I did it on the London tube and literally just speaking out loud the 260 00:20:23,28 --> 00:20:26,63 name of each station. As you approached. 261 00:20:31,34 --> 00:20:37,37 They see me strange how awful if if they think about it because. When you sort of 262 00:20:37,53 --> 00:20:42,81 contemplated in detail you think well I'm not going to be holing obese or anybody 263 00:20:42,82 --> 00:20:46,14 I'm not going to be inconveniencing anybody and you could argue that I'm helping 264 00:20:46,15 --> 00:20:46,75 them in 265 00:20:46,76 --> 00:20:51,38 a sense I mean and yet the prospect of doing it is absolutely to someone like me 266 00:20:51,39 --> 00:20:53,64 anyway and turned to many people I think. 267 00:20:59,52 --> 00:21:02,72 And I did it and it was pretty horrible. 268 00:21:06,07 --> 00:21:08,87 But this is important thing it's 269 00:21:08,88 --> 00:21:12,36 a finite kind of horrible You don't get arrested or attacked you know the 270 00:21:12,37 --> 00:21:17,72 consequences do not begin to justify the level of excruciating emotion that 271 00:21:17,73 --> 00:21:20,73 accompanied thinking about it in advance what happens is 272 00:21:20,74 --> 00:21:24,61 a couple of people you know look up from their newspapers and then go back to the 273 00:21:24,62 --> 00:21:28,60 newspapers because I remember well well proven finding 274 00:21:28,61 --> 00:21:34,75 a social psychology most people most of the time thinking about themselves and the 275 00:21:34,77 --> 00:21:38,18 result of doing this is that your embarrassment is cut your fur of embarrassment is 276 00:21:38,20 --> 00:21:43,15 cut down to size your your beliefs become infused with this dose of reality the 277 00:21:43,16 --> 00:21:48,33 anxiety disperses and briefly sort of feel great actually I felt. For 278 00:21:48,34 --> 00:21:55,23 a short time after that I felt as good as ever felt. I 279 00:21:55,24 --> 00:21:55,92 would make 280 00:21:55,93 --> 00:22:02,82 a habit of doing it I don't know. How much right in Seattle. The Buddhist tradition 281 00:22:02,83 --> 00:22:09,59 as well I think offers many. Obvious insights on that obviously relevant timing to 282 00:22:09,60 --> 00:22:15,45 the to the negative half to happiness mindfulness meditation of course is all the 283 00:22:15,46 --> 00:22:18,65 rage these days and so while I was researching this book I went on 284 00:22:18,66 --> 00:22:23,20 a week long silent meditation retreat at the Insight Meditation Society in 285 00:22:23,62 --> 00:22:28,80 Massachusetts where I got up at five thirty every day with forty other people spent 286 00:22:29,02 --> 00:22:35,71 about nine hours a day. Watching my breath. And at first this is 287 00:22:35,72 --> 00:22:41,38 a total nightmare to do as some of you may have experienced. Because you realize 288 00:22:41,39 --> 00:22:46,08 that when you try to make your mind really really calm and quiet all you see is how 289 00:22:46,09 --> 00:22:51,13 incredibly noisy it is in that for almost the first few days of this retreat I had 290 00:22:51,14 --> 00:22:58,13 the lyrics to. The song Barbie Girl by at what. You know 291 00:22:58,14 --> 00:23:03,41 from one thousand nine hundred seventy Danish Norwegian both I think. Sort of disco 292 00:23:03,43 --> 00:23:07,92 pop absolutely terrible song which I've never liked you know wasn't I wasn't I 293 00:23:07,93 --> 00:23:11,03 wasn't singing to myself but it just jammed into my brain in 294 00:23:11,05 --> 00:23:17,20 a way that wouldn't wouldn't leave. But then eventually something happens and those 295 00:23:17,24 --> 00:23:20,73 sort of sense of opening and what you realize is that actually it isn't about 296 00:23:20,74 --> 00:23:24,77 trying to make your mind as calm and as tranquil as you possibly can what it's 297 00:23:24,95 --> 00:23:30,97 about is is what I think Buddhist writers would would call non-attachment 298 00:23:32,66 --> 00:23:36,09 the popular metaphor here is to learn to see your thoughts like weather patterns 299 00:23:36,22 --> 00:23:41,92 rising and passing away it's not that you try to push away the bad stuff but that 300 00:23:41,93 --> 00:23:47,09 you let whatever comes positive or negative just sort of be until it goes away 301 00:23:47,10 --> 00:23:54,08 again. American British writer and teacher called Charlotte back who 302 00:23:54,12 --> 00:23:57,48 put it beautifully I think when she said that the point of meditation practice is 303 00:23:57,49 --> 00:24:03,73 not to change the contents of the container that is the mind but to become 304 00:24:03,74 --> 00:24:10,63 a bigger container which is not the same as saying by the way that I feel that it's 305 00:24:10,64 --> 00:24:13,34 a start of passive a teacher to wards life I think it's just 306 00:24:13,35 --> 00:24:19,22 a question of not. Not fixating on manipulating the emotional content that goes 307 00:24:19,23 --> 00:24:24,20 along with things in life I think it absolutely doesn't mean resigning ourselves to 308 00:24:24,21 --> 00:24:29,21 the kinds of circumstances that in fact we should change. And then the third and 309 00:24:29,22 --> 00:24:34,10 final example of this negative parts that are all that are mentioned here is the 310 00:24:34,11 --> 00:24:40,04 largely forgotten tradition of memento mori the idea of building in constant 311 00:24:40,05 --> 00:24:45,71 reminders of mortality into daily life I think it's pretty obvious that death is 312 00:24:45,72 --> 00:24:46,99 the ultimate example of 313 00:24:47,00 --> 00:24:53,26 a negative thing that we try to ignore and not think about only to find ourselves 314 00:24:53,27 --> 00:24:58,60 completely unprepared when when we're forced to think about it the psychologist on 315 00:24:58,61 --> 00:25:03,46 us back or in his famous book from the seventy's or denial of death that actually 316 00:25:03,47 --> 00:25:09,66 trying not to think about death accounts for almost all significant human activity 317 00:25:09,66 --> 00:25:14,66 . I spent 318 00:25:14,67 --> 00:25:18,98 a little Raul reporting this book and in Mexico during the day of the dead 319 00:25:19,16 --> 00:25:24,25 celebrations it's fairly well known and I want to avoid making sort of sweeping 320 00:25:24,26 --> 00:25:29,40 cultural generalizations but it is really quite extraordinary to be that then for 321 00:25:29,41 --> 00:25:34,05 anyone who's more familiar with an American or British for Halloween which takes 322 00:25:34,06 --> 00:25:40,13 place at roughly the same time and has related roots. How in is basically 323 00:25:40,14 --> 00:25:44,70 a holiday dedicated to the celebration of candy as far as I can account for in this 324 00:25:44,71 --> 00:25:47,67 country. The bread Ronnie is 325 00:25:47,68 --> 00:25:54,32 a celebration of death and of the fact of mortality. In 326 00:25:54,33 --> 00:26:01,10 some offices in you know downtown Mexico City. People write. 327 00:26:02,11 --> 00:26:06,03 Poems to each other about how they expect they might die their colleagues I mean 328 00:26:06,04 --> 00:26:07,93 little souls treating it in 329 00:26:07,94 --> 00:26:11,95 a very very sort of jovial way and in the rural areas there's 330 00:26:11,96 --> 00:26:16,27 a tradition of all night vigils in cemeteries I spent a night in 331 00:26:16,28 --> 00:26:20,41 a cemetery where families were conducting this this vigil sitting at the graves of 332 00:26:20,42 --> 00:26:25,95 their relatives playing music talking drinking not not mourning but equally not. 333 00:26:27,65 --> 00:26:33,88 Joking about death but just sort of hanging out and letting death. Seep into 334 00:26:34,35 --> 00:26:38,00 life this as you probably know used to be 335 00:26:38,01 --> 00:26:41,41 a lot more common there are many old traditions in art and for example including 336 00:26:41,42 --> 00:26:47,44 the an image of the scroll of the. Patron of the artist pictured in 337 00:26:47,45 --> 00:26:48,18 a still life as 338 00:26:48,19 --> 00:26:53,85 a reminder that he too was was going to die. Those are fascinating study 339 00:26:53,86 --> 00:26:58,68 a few years ago illustrating the power of this kind of remembering of death where. 340 00:27:00,77 --> 00:27:05,07 People are observed some people are observed taking a shortcut through 341 00:27:05,08 --> 00:27:06,97 a cemetery and other people observe walking down 342 00:27:06,98 --> 00:27:11,87 a sort of regular street some blocks away and they were both exposed by the 343 00:27:11,88 --> 00:27:13,84 experimenters to people speaking on 344 00:27:13,85 --> 00:27:17,93 a mobile phone about the importance of self and I say about the importance of 345 00:27:18,09 --> 00:27:23,29 helping people so that sort of made the idea of helping failure in their minds and 346 00:27:23,30 --> 00:27:28,74 then one of the researches dropped notes on the ground and the people working 347 00:27:28,75 --> 00:27:32,31 through the cemetery with that subliminal reminder of death were thirty percent 348 00:27:32,32 --> 00:27:38,36 more likely to help to pick up the drop notes so it seems that in the right context 349 00:27:38,45 --> 00:27:43,93 at any rate death awareness triggers compassion or perhaps an awareness of the way 350 00:27:43,94 --> 00:27:50,11 in which the one way in which we are truly all the same. And though it's 351 00:27:50,12 --> 00:27:53,89 a cliché Obviously there's also the fact that awareness of mortality it's 352 00:27:53,90 --> 00:27:54,34 a cliche for 353 00:27:54,35 --> 00:28:00,78 a reason I think tends to focus your life on the things that matter the most that 354 00:28:00,79 --> 00:28:07,70 very famous. Quotation from Steve Jobs's graduation speech by Steve Jobs 355 00:28:07,71 --> 00:28:13,41 where he he says that there's nothing better to make you realize that you already 356 00:28:13,42 --> 00:28:18,87 make it if you have nothing to lose. Than remembering. That the undeniable fact 357 00:28:18,91 --> 00:28:25,09 that you will die. So just to draw these threads together 358 00:28:25,54 --> 00:28:30,51 disparate philosophies and disparate approaches but I think what they all share 359 00:28:30,55 --> 00:28:35,09 stoicism Buddhism Memento Mori and some of the other things I write about is this 360 00:28:35,10 --> 00:28:42,06 idea of turning to world's negativity instead of the positive thinking focus on on 361 00:28:42,10 --> 00:28:48,16 on stamping negativity out at all costs probably rather goes I think and we can 362 00:28:48,17 --> 00:28:51,59 talk about this if people are interested it is beyond both negativity and 363 00:28:51,60 --> 00:28:52,45 positivity it's not 364 00:28:52,46 --> 00:28:55,62 a question of replacing positive thinking with negative thinking but of 365 00:28:55,87 --> 00:29:00,58 transcending both of these somehow and really reevaluating our idea of what that 366 00:29:00,59 --> 00:29:05,74 word happiness really means but I do think in closing that it's important to 367 00:29:05,75 --> 00:29:07,01 emphasize that this isn't just 368 00:29:07,02 --> 00:29:13,09 a sort of airy wishy washy spiritual position for people who want to sort of check 369 00:29:13,10 --> 00:29:16,67 out of day to day life I think it's it's 370 00:29:16,68 --> 00:29:23,40 a really intensely practical way to live and to achieve very worldly 371 00:29:23,90 --> 00:29:26,96 kinds of success there's 372 00:29:26,97 --> 00:29:32,10 a research called us who's done some fascinating studies about entrepreneurs based 373 00:29:32,11 --> 00:29:38,70 on very long in-depth interviews and she concludes that actually they they 374 00:29:38,71 --> 00:29:42,60 naturally use some of these techniques without even really thinking about it and 375 00:29:42,61 --> 00:29:48,73 really don't use the the techniques of positive thinking and goal striving that so 376 00:29:48,74 --> 00:29:52,29 much of the self-help literature would have you believe so for example they really 377 00:29:52,30 --> 00:29:58,02 do use the premeditation of evil in in her work it's called the principle of 378 00:29:58,03 --> 00:30:02,67 a thought about loss. You don't try and convince yourself your project is going to 379 00:30:02,68 --> 00:30:08,67 work out you say what would be the cost if it didn't work out and if that is 380 00:30:08,68 --> 00:30:14,21 affordable. Then that's the only criterion that you need to meet you then should 381 00:30:14,36 --> 00:30:19,87 you should and should do whatever it is you're thinking about doing. But don't make 382 00:30:19,88 --> 00:30:23,67 by and large these vivid detailed plans of what they're going to have achieved in 383 00:30:23,68 --> 00:30:29,87 five years and then stubbornly fight until reality bends to their will they don't 384 00:30:29,88 --> 00:30:36,17 instead they turn to ruins uncertainty they don't learn how to move forward without 385 00:30:36,18 --> 00:30:40,87 knowing exactly where they're going to end up but to still make fruitful progress 386 00:30:41,29 --> 00:30:45,76 to move forward alongside those feelings of uncertainty constantly revising the end 387 00:30:45,80 --> 00:30:50,72 point and the really nice analogy that I liked is that there are less like gourmet 388 00:30:50,73 --> 00:30:52,37 chefs who visualise 389 00:30:52,38 --> 00:30:55,81 a dish and then source the ingredients from all over the world but they're much 390 00:30:55,82 --> 00:30:58,23 more like any of us coming home after 391 00:30:58,24 --> 00:31:02,71 a day at work seeing what's in the refrigerator in the cupboard using the things at 392 00:31:02,72 --> 00:31:07,86 their disposal to see what they can build and being constantly ready to change the 393 00:31:07,87 --> 00:31:14,09 definition of what it is that they're trying to build it's somewhat similar. I 394 00:31:14,10 --> 00:31:15,17 discovered with writing 395 00:31:15,18 --> 00:31:19,25 a book because if you listen to the motivational coaches that will tell you that 396 00:31:19,29 --> 00:31:22,86 the crucial thing you have to do to beat procrastination which I certainly suffered 397 00:31:22,87 --> 00:31:29,16 from when I was writing this is is to get motivated. To to bust through your 398 00:31:29,17 --> 00:31:32,56 feelings of procrastination to to work yourself up into 399 00:31:32,74 --> 00:31:38,82 a motivated state where all you want to do is work but when you look at this 400 00:31:38,83 --> 00:31:42,41 through the perspective of non-attachment in Buddhism and the premeditation of 401 00:31:42,42 --> 00:31:46,80 evils and stoicism and all the rest of it. You begin to see that actually this is 402 00:31:46,84 --> 00:31:50,33 this actually adds an extra hurdle because what this says is not only that you need 403 00:31:50,34 --> 00:31:54,72 to work on your project or write your book whatever it may be but you also need to 404 00:31:54,73 --> 00:32:01,54 feel the right way before you do it you need to get your emotions exactly right 405 00:32:01,58 --> 00:32:06,12 before you can add so it actually inserts an obstacle into the into the writing 406 00:32:06,13 --> 00:32:11,81 process. As it is the same idea as you know waiting for inspiration to strike or 407 00:32:11,82 --> 00:32:18,74 trying to make yourself feel inspired Instead you can just co-exist with those 408 00:32:18,75 --> 00:32:24,44 feelings of not wanting to the work of procrastination and reluctance and and act 409 00:32:24,45 --> 00:32:26,67 at the same time anyway it's 410 00:32:26,68 --> 00:32:30,39 a famous observation from the artist Chuck Close He says it's bracing is for 411 00:32:30,40 --> 00:32:37,11 amateurs the rest of us just get to work I really love the writing I 412 00:32:37,45 --> 00:32:43,92 quoted all the time of Frankenstein great from those uninspired Japanese psychiatry 413 00:32:43,93 --> 00:32:49,21 and psychologist Shomer Rita and he's made me go commit sort of anti positive 414 00:32:49,35 --> 00:32:56,21 thinker. And. He has advice for living which I just think is 415 00:32:56,22 --> 00:33:03,17 fantastic he says give up on yourself begin taking action now being neurotic or 416 00:33:03,18 --> 00:33:04,05 imperfect or 417 00:33:04,06 --> 00:33:08,48 a procrastinator or other healthy well lazy or any other label by which you can 418 00:33:08,49 --> 00:33:13,89 accurately describe yourself go ahead and be the best imperfect person you can be 419 00:33:14,25 --> 00:33:19,67 and get started on those things you want to accomplish before you die I think 420 00:33:19,68 --> 00:33:19,85 that's 421 00:33:19,86 --> 00:33:25,45 a kind of great way to think about approaching life go to visit you know you can 422 00:33:25,49 --> 00:33:30,02 walk across hot coals in your bare feet and prove to yourself the power of positive 423 00:33:30,03 --> 00:33:32,99 thinking is completely up to you but that's all I've got to say so thank you very 424 00:33:33,00 --> 00:33:39,98 much for people. Hi Hi So I have two questions 425 00:33:40,69 --> 00:33:44,03 the first I'm talking about corporate culture and everything in that whole and I 426 00:33:44,04 --> 00:33:47,65 have seen that many times that you know you have to score and everybody gets behind 427 00:33:47,66 --> 00:33:49,97 it and then you know it's looking like it's going to be 428 00:33:49,98 --> 00:33:52,65 a train wreck and we all just sort of pretend that it's not going to be 429 00:33:52,66 --> 00:33:54,78 a train wreck but don't you think that has 430 00:33:54,79 --> 00:33:59,29 a lot to do is our competitive culture and people not wanting to feel that winners 431 00:33:59,30 --> 00:34:02,41 and losers and people there are a winner and if I'm 432 00:34:02,42 --> 00:34:08,56 a winner I can't fail and that's part of that yeah absolutely absolutely I think 433 00:34:08,57 --> 00:34:10,03 it's a really good point I mean there's 434 00:34:10,04 --> 00:34:16,42 a I write about but didn't talk about the sort of figure aspect of this analogies 435 00:34:16,43 --> 00:34:22,97 to failure I went to. A place in Michigan which has become known as the Museum of 436 00:34:22,98 --> 00:34:29,92 failed products. It isn't they don't like that name. Possibly for obvious 437 00:34:29,94 --> 00:34:31,22 reasons but it's a it's just 438 00:34:31,24 --> 00:34:37,13 a collection of consumer goods that failed basically. And the reason it exists is 439 00:34:37,15 --> 00:34:39,29 a viable. It's 440 00:34:39,31 --> 00:34:44,11 a private library that product designers come to inspect and they pay for that 441 00:34:44,12 --> 00:34:47,94 privilege the reason it exists in the first place is because so many of these firms 442 00:34:47,95 --> 00:34:53,02 are actually terrible at keeping records of the things that went wrong or looking 443 00:34:53,03 --> 00:34:57,14 closely into the things that went wrong and learning from them they you know find 444 00:34:57,16 --> 00:34:59,60 that product manager put those failed products in 445 00:34:59,62 --> 00:35:06,25 a closet and move them to the next insistence on on success. And yet as those other 446 00:35:06,74 --> 00:35:11,44 writers in this area who I am forgetting who right now but who you know witnessed 447 00:35:11,91 --> 00:35:16,46 motivational coaches tell an entire room of of employees at the same firm that they 448 00:35:16,46 --> 00:35:23,26 can all be the number one salesman next year. So yeah I 449 00:35:23,27 --> 00:35:26,90 think I think you're absolutely right I think I think they these two things go 450 00:35:26,91 --> 00:35:32,07 together basically the idea of not of the allergy to failure and the sort of 451 00:35:32,08 --> 00:35:38,66 fixation on. Big over committing to goals sort of if you each other. 452 00:35:40,06 --> 00:35:46,48 OK so my second question. Is around gratitude and I really am 453 00:35:46,49 --> 00:35:52,46 a firm believer that. A strong sense of gratitude leads to happiness and do you 454 00:35:52,47 --> 00:35:56,55 think that that kind of ties in I mean if you're if you have like all these great 455 00:35:56,56 --> 00:36:01,43 goals and you know totally positive it's hard to feel grateful because you know all 456 00:36:01,44 --> 00:36:04,08 these goals and you're here and all these goals are appear and it's hard to feel 457 00:36:04,09 --> 00:36:09,19 grateful so I mean your philosophy to sort of embrace the negative look at what's 458 00:36:09,20 --> 00:36:13,24 the worst possible thing that could happen and if something better than that 459 00:36:13,25 --> 00:36:18,81 happens then you can feel grateful and and I really and I'm not sure I mean you 460 00:36:18,82 --> 00:36:19,07 talked 461 00:36:19,08 --> 00:36:26,01 a little bit about the idea of gratitude leading to happiness and and I wonder if 462 00:36:26,02 --> 00:36:29,98 you could address how you think that sort of ties into your philosophy of negative 463 00:36:29,99 --> 00:36:34,73 thinking where the whole the whole thing as I understand it. In terms of whether 464 00:36:35,57 --> 00:36:41,07 psychological research is out is that gratitude. Quite apart from whether it's an 465 00:36:41,08 --> 00:36:47,59 ethical value that it is good for those reasons it works because it 466 00:36:47,86 --> 00:36:49,24 counteracts the head on 467 00:36:49,25 --> 00:36:54,25 a treadmill you know the way that anything we get in our lives becomes. Part of the 468 00:36:54,26 --> 00:36:59,89 backdrop of our lives too quickly so what you know anything from just that i Pad to 469 00:36:59,89 --> 00:37:06,29 . A new relationship you know the full gamut if not the 470 00:37:06,61 --> 00:37:13,48 steps delivering the same degree of. Of happiness. Because it because we're 471 00:37:13,79 --> 00:37:17,24 so good at the climatized to those things and Gratitude is 472 00:37:17,25 --> 00:37:24,03 a way of sort of noticing. Those things that you'd otherwise be climatized to 473 00:37:24,76 --> 00:37:29,97 the write this column in The Guardian which you know in many ways takes 474 00:37:29,98 --> 00:37:35,99 a sort of very skeptical look at self-help books and culture but I sort of was 475 00:37:36,00 --> 00:37:37,87 forced to concede that the idea of keeping 476 00:37:37,88 --> 00:37:42,10 a gratitude journal which seems so you know is did really seem very sort of calming 477 00:37:42,11 --> 00:37:45,40 to me and not something that I would probably admit to my friends but you know I. 478 00:37:47,55 --> 00:37:51,40 Whether you from personal experience now but from you know if you want peer 479 00:37:51,41 --> 00:37:56,12 reviewed studies their purview studies now what because you are calling bring into 480 00:37:56,13 --> 00:38:01,30 focus I think that otherwise fall into the background so that's completely I 481 00:38:01,31 --> 00:38:08,10 completely think that it is critical I think. Asking yourself imagining the fact 482 00:38:08,11 --> 00:38:13,12 that you could lose things you have is one is one way towards that. You know that 483 00:38:13,13 --> 00:38:16,00 be different approaches suitable for different people at different times but I 484 00:38:16,01 --> 00:38:18,27 think that you know that is quite 485 00:38:18,28 --> 00:38:22,90 a powerful way of doing it because then you really do start to feel grateful 486 00:38:23,67 --> 00:38:30,27 whether or not you've reached any specific sort of predetermined goal is up. You 487 00:38:30,28 --> 00:38:34,61 can thank you very much. Let's set 488 00:38:34,61 --> 00:38:38,85 a question but when you did your subway exercise I was wondering you said you had 489 00:38:38,86 --> 00:38:42,46 residual positive effects for a short while what I thought was a few hours or 490 00:38:42,47 --> 00:38:43,19 a few days or 491 00:38:43,20 --> 00:38:49,78 a few weeks. I think I think there are probably emotional cognitive levels that 492 00:38:49,82 --> 00:38:55,03 sort of so I'm the sort of I didn't feel fired up for more than an hour or so you 493 00:38:55,04 --> 00:39:01,81 know that was very short term. But I think it did change something you know 494 00:39:01,96 --> 00:39:02,08 in 495 00:39:02,09 --> 00:39:09,22 a modest way. You know I I certainly use that what's 496 00:39:09,23 --> 00:39:13,71 the worst that could happen and question well with time life of daily life. 497 00:39:17,12 --> 00:39:20,90 Increasingly I enjoy speaking groups of people but it's still you know on some 498 00:39:20,91 --> 00:39:21,24 level you're 499 00:39:21,25 --> 00:39:23,89 a bit nervous about it so it's always good to remember well the worst thing is that 500 00:39:24,08 --> 00:39:27,50 a room full of people could like be reborn think I was in India that is not the 501 00:39:27,51 --> 00:39:28,53 same I have 502 00:39:28,57 --> 00:39:32,93 a nuclear war you know and it and it and it doesn't warrant the kind of anxiety 503 00:39:32,94 --> 00:39:34,82 that would that would go along with the prospect of 504 00:39:34,83 --> 00:39:41,57 a nuclear war so that I think after the belong Hi Hi. 505 00:39:42,95 --> 00:39:47,14 I guess is I was listening to you I was having a problem where I was thinking 506 00:39:47,57 --> 00:39:51,94 a lot of times what you described as negative thinking I was thinking that's 507 00:39:51,95 --> 00:39:58,67 positive thinking all right and now given it and actually like that Mt Everest 508 00:39:58,68 --> 00:40:04,83 thing for you know. Then going up the hill when there was bad circumstances that 509 00:40:04,84 --> 00:40:10,46 wasn't positive thinking to me that was stupidity but the positive if they had 510 00:40:10,47 --> 00:40:15,96 turned back where I think in your mind that's negative to me it would be like OK 511 00:40:15,97 --> 00:40:20,03 we're going to turn back and make the best of this like we will do the smart thing 512 00:40:20,30 --> 00:40:20,79 but we put 513 00:40:20,80 --> 00:40:25,68 a positive spin on it Reich OK well now we have more time to visit or sit by the 514 00:40:25,69 --> 00:40:32,09 fire whatever and I I do were many examples you gave that way like your being on 515 00:40:32,10 --> 00:40:38,26 that like imagining the worst case scenario to me again that's positive you think 516 00:40:38,74 --> 00:40:45,08 if this is as bad as it can get and it's not that bad that's positive thinking to 517 00:40:45,09 --> 00:40:49,10 me so I just you know I think I think you're not wrong I think it's I think it's 518 00:40:49,11 --> 00:40:50,69 a partly 519 00:40:50,70 --> 00:40:56,50 a semantic distinction because the way I'm defining positive thinking I maybe 520 00:40:56,54 --> 00:41:00,11 should make it clearer but I think I'm finding positive thinking is as the sort of 521 00:41:00,12 --> 00:41:07,08 world effort to replace negative thoughts with positive thoughts I think the the 522 00:41:07,43 --> 00:41:11,17 the techniques in the approaches that I write about appreciatively in this book I 523 00:41:11,18 --> 00:41:17,56 think are good ones you know they're still focused on that point of being happy and 524 00:41:17,57 --> 00:41:22,47 if they work then hopefully they make you happy so if positive thinking simply 525 00:41:22,48 --> 00:41:26,63 means being being happy then then I think it's very hard for anyone to be against 526 00:41:26,64 --> 00:41:33,39 it I think it's that I don't the world focus on trying to change. Emotional states 527 00:41:33,55 --> 00:41:39,67 and thoughts rather than. What you are calling positive thinking I'm just I would 528 00:41:39,68 --> 00:41:43,10 suggest that you sort of like why it's path to happiness and the fact that they get 529 00:41:43,11 --> 00:41:45,07 you to happiness is definitely positive in 530 00:41:45,08 --> 00:41:51,03 a sense so I really agree. Because I'm still thinking positive perspective yeah on 531 00:41:51,04 --> 00:41:55,56 the negative. And you're saying that's negative and I'm going to let you know where 532 00:41:55,57 --> 00:41:59,19 they were I mean that's so firstly I think it is mantic distinction but then 533 00:41:59,20 --> 00:42:04,06 secondly as I sort of touched on the very end it gets into this kind of very not 534 00:42:04,07 --> 00:42:08,98 just semantic but sort of extremely deep thing but my journey through the process 535 00:42:08,99 --> 00:42:15,44 of writing this book was was not to just become. Certain that I was right that 536 00:42:15,61 --> 00:42:20,06 positive thinking was bad or negative thinking was good but these are apparent this 537 00:42:20,07 --> 00:42:20,15 is 538 00:42:20,16 --> 00:42:24,56 a priority that they were out each other that somehow you know you only have the positive 539 00:42:24,57 --> 00:42:29,64 because of the negative and vice versa and that transcending that distinction is 540 00:42:29,65 --> 00:42:33,24 probably where one has to go next in terms of understanding on 541 00:42:33,24 --> 00:42:38,59 a philosophical level what what happiness is so on that level the fact that what 542 00:42:38,63 --> 00:42:42,88 you think of as positive I think is a negative vice versa or is actually 543 00:42:42,89 --> 00:42:48,03 a function the fact that you know these things define each other you can't have the 544 00:42:48,04 --> 00:42:49,46 peak of a way without the trough of 545 00:42:49,47 --> 00:42:55,70 a wave would think. Right now we're just not for permission and in which case in 546 00:42:55,71 --> 00:42:59,99 which case don't change that is not the message OK not the message because not that 547 00:43:00,00 --> 00:43:03,68 if you're if you wake up feeling very happy every day you should stop feeling sad. 548 00:43:05,69 --> 00:43:12,23 Thank you thank you so much. Yeah I think this 549 00:43:12,24 --> 00:43:16,51 happiness movement is problematic I actually met the woman who wrote The Happiness 550 00:43:16,52 --> 00:43:21,84 Project and she's one of those moods where people are of my opinion which is odd 551 00:43:21,85 --> 00:43:25,97 but I think our whole world has been defined by trying to become happy right and 552 00:43:25,98 --> 00:43:26,13 just 553 00:43:26,14 --> 00:43:30,20 a New York Times bestseller out of that doesn't mean her project has won it for her 554 00:43:30,21 --> 00:43:36,16 though so when I wake up in the morning I think am I supposed to be happy today am 555 00:43:36,17 --> 00:43:42,75 I looking for happiness today I don't look to be happy all day long but the society 556 00:43:42,77 --> 00:43:46,23 says it in so many different ways that that's what we're supposed to be what would 557 00:43:46,24 --> 00:43:47,35 you say is 558 00:43:47,35 --> 00:43:53,52 a healthy motional state for most of us throughout the course of those sixteen 559 00:43:53,54 --> 00:43:55,64 hours that we're awake. It's 560 00:43:55,65 --> 00:43:59,13 a very good question because actually when you look at like the Stoics For example 561 00:43:59,14 --> 00:44:05,78 you find that. The pinnacle of emotional states for them was 562 00:44:06,56 --> 00:44:11,93 tranquility that wasn't. There was an excitement which is what they try to 563 00:44:12,20 --> 00:44:18,42 incorporate get made or did they get motivated. And incidentally that's why 564 00:44:18,43 --> 00:44:22,51 motivational seminars that's the business model you know it works it makes you feel 565 00:44:22,52 --> 00:44:28,68 great for about three days and then it fades and you have to go back for more. So 566 00:44:29,45 --> 00:44:31,50 I think I mean just in general I think you make 567 00:44:31,51 --> 00:44:38,03 a really good point that clarifying me the specific goal here is is kind of 568 00:44:38,04 --> 00:44:39,12 important there's 569 00:44:39,13 --> 00:44:46,15 a psychologist called Paul Pierce or. Who argued that. Or 570 00:44:46,35 --> 00:44:51,93 eight of you he is the. Is the emotion that we should be focusing on here the side 571 00:44:51,94 --> 00:44:56,37 sort of radical openness mixed with negative with negative and positive emotions 572 00:44:56,38 --> 00:44:58,77 mixed in mixed in together that's probably not 573 00:44:58,78 --> 00:45:01,52 a sort of every hour of the day emotion but 574 00:45:01,53 --> 00:45:07,92 a sort of peak peak experience. Emotion again we got to this problem of 575 00:45:09,30 --> 00:45:12,97 the difference between the descriptive way that you may feel and if someone feels 576 00:45:12,98 --> 00:45:17,49 excited every hour of the day I think that's totally fine I mean those people tend 577 00:45:17,50 --> 00:45:17,62 to be 578 00:45:17,63 --> 00:45:25,09 a bit annoying but. It's but it's totally fine versus whether 579 00:45:25,66 --> 00:45:30,28 you should advise yourself or other people to make the effort to become like that 580 00:45:30,48 --> 00:45:36,46 and I think it's that it's in that sort of. It's in trying to will those kinds of 581 00:45:36,47 --> 00:45:40,81 situations those kind of emotions as you as you rightly say I think that that all 582 00:45:40,82 --> 00:45:46,93 the problems arise we can all have different definitions of what feels best. 583 00:45:48,06 --> 00:45:51,09 But it's but but even if that definition is 584 00:45:51,13 --> 00:45:57,12 a good one trying to force it into being is is is unlikely to is likely to bring 585 00:45:57,13 --> 00:46:00,87 about. I didn't really answer the question but I'm not sure it can be answered. 586 00:46:05,91 --> 00:46:09,30 Hello sorry both I was having 587 00:46:09,31 --> 00:46:13,99 a hard time formulating my question but do you write about or do you have any 588 00:46:14,00 --> 00:46:20,18 favorite research about different ways to acknowledge or reflect on changes or 589 00:46:20,19 --> 00:46:24,45 changing goals it seems like gratitude is probably an example of this but I think 590 00:46:24,46 --> 00:46:27,65 there's a difference between an entrepreneur who does 591 00:46:27,66 --> 00:46:32,19 a really good job of sort of changing their goals to meet what they have an C.E.O. 592 00:46:32,20 --> 00:46:35,55 Who sets a goal and then sticks to it no matter what and then maybe 593 00:46:35,56 --> 00:46:37,11 a third kind who sets 594 00:46:37,12 --> 00:46:40,70 a goal and then maybe changes it along the way but doesn't acknowledge that they 595 00:46:40,71 --> 00:46:44,60 were changing along the way and probably isn't getting the benefits of saying oh 596 00:46:44,61 --> 00:46:46,70 it's OK that we change or we're doing maybe we feel 597 00:46:46,71 --> 00:46:52,55 a little bit too you know anything or do you care about like. It's 598 00:46:52,56 --> 00:46:55,43 a great question the only thing that immediately makes me think of that I have 599 00:46:55,44 --> 00:47:01,81 written about and talked to people about is is is just writing things down you know 600 00:47:02,51 --> 00:47:07,35 and the idea of journaling and other forms of writing not to solve problems but 601 00:47:07,36 --> 00:47:11,74 just externalise them and there has been some fascinating research by 602 00:47:11,75 --> 00:47:16,85 a psychologist called James Baker into the power of this is not that it's not that 603 00:47:16,86 --> 00:47:22,23 when you sit down for fifteen minutes and write out your current state your mind in 604 00:47:22,24 --> 00:47:24,43 a notebook that you solve 605 00:47:25,01 --> 00:47:29,75 a problem it's the act of externalizing that sort of shifts the perspective and has 606 00:47:29,76 --> 00:47:35,40 some really extraordinary. Effect for I think as I may be. 607 00:47:37,80 --> 00:47:40,67 Misremembering this but there is a there is some studies there is 608 00:47:40,68 --> 00:47:47,53 a study of from London that involved. Inflicting very very small very 609 00:47:47,57 --> 00:47:53,41 tiny micro sort of paper cuts basically on people and and monitoring. 610 00:47:54,56 --> 00:47:58,08 That physical healing among people who either spend fifteen minutes 611 00:47:58,09 --> 00:48:04,83 a day journaling about the issues and those who didn't and. To monitor the Found 612 00:48:04,84 --> 00:48:11,31 a difference in literally on the physical level the healing of my crew wombs. 613 00:48:12,48 --> 00:48:13,25 But but just on 614 00:48:13,26 --> 00:48:17,74 a psychological level I mean I do that myself you know I think I think that writing 615 00:48:18,13 --> 00:48:23,35 writing is the sort of place where you can externalize this stuff without 616 00:48:23,43 --> 00:48:26,43 necessarily having to share it with anybody else because you don't share what you 617 00:48:26,44 --> 00:48:33,31 write in your car insurance. Anything point I can think of really 618 00:48:33,32 --> 00:48:35,09 in response to that but it's 619 00:48:35,10 --> 00:48:38,36 a really good point I mean you have to reflect and it's not good enough to just 620 00:48:39,00 --> 00:48:45,88 hear someone say that the things reported Thank you. I've 621 00:48:45,89 --> 00:48:46,19 been in 622 00:48:46,20 --> 00:48:51,27 a very reflective time in my life recently I've had to confront some very hard 623 00:48:51,28 --> 00:48:58,17 failures and in looking back on these failures I'm seeing 624 00:48:58,18 --> 00:49:03,94 that if I had been paying attention at the time instead of just barreling forward 625 00:49:04,27 --> 00:49:08,33 and saying you know in spite of it all I'm going to achieve this goal that I would 626 00:49:08,34 --> 00:49:13,79 have seen that this is not going to work out for me and so I'm wondering if part of 627 00:49:13,80 --> 00:49:19,58 what you're talking about is is paying attention to what's going on here and now 628 00:49:20,68 --> 00:49:25,48 yeah I think it totally is and I think it's like the hardest thing there is to do 629 00:49:26,11 --> 00:49:31,79 and I'm not. Going to claim that I. Have got that figured out 630 00:49:31,80 --> 00:49:38,77 a toll. I interviewed for another chapter his book. Is the author of The Power 631 00:49:38,78 --> 00:49:43,90 of Now. And who I was sort of million did to dismiss given my sort of general 632 00:49:43,91 --> 00:49:49,09 position on these things but who I. I really don't I hope dismiss the book because 633 00:49:49,10 --> 00:49:56,06 I think he has an awful lot of. Extremely Important perspective. I 634 00:49:56,07 --> 00:49:56,58 was going to say has 635 00:49:56,59 --> 00:49:58,80 a lot of interesting things to say but that's not the point the point is that his 636 00:49:58,81 --> 00:50:05,14 writing sort of points you back into the. Into the present moment. And I think that 637 00:50:05,41 --> 00:50:08,17 meditation is a sort of in one sense as a kind of 638 00:50:08,18 --> 00:50:15,06 a training in that kind of attentional. Training but it is incredibly difficult and 639 00:50:15,06 --> 00:50:21,59 . We're not helped by all these. By these focuses on goals and and 640 00:50:22,19 --> 00:50:28,44 the books and. Speakers that I that I read about in here because that is all very 641 00:50:28,70 --> 00:50:32,48 a way of thinking about life that is completely focused on barreling toward at full 642 00:50:32,49 --> 00:50:37,42 speed into the into the future so I think actually right I mean but if you discover 643 00:50:37,47 --> 00:50:39,35 the secret then let me know but 644 00:50:46,84 --> 00:50:48,25 since I'm also English and also 645 00:50:48,26 --> 00:50:54,14 a writer I thought I'd come up here and engage you in some competitive. Kids 646 00:50:54,35 --> 00:50:58,72 because it seems to me that listening to you talk about particularly about the kind 647 00:50:58,73 --> 00:51:05,73 of Tony Robbins I have huge weighty school. Positive thinking. He does people 648 00:51:05,74 --> 00:51:06,87 like that will say well it's 649 00:51:06,88 --> 00:51:11,17 a study that shows that if you only do this then this way you've also said 650 00:51:11,18 --> 00:51:15,89 a lot of well in fact instead if you do this you'll do this on his more pessimistic 651 00:51:15,90 --> 00:51:20,92 scenario which is the one I'm inclined to myself which is it could be that all of 652 00:51:20,93 --> 00:51:24,19 those psychological studies that people have got their Ph D.'s on should know it's 653 00:51:24,20 --> 00:51:31,03 not and that in fact the question of how our emotional makeup relates to our 654 00:51:31,04 --> 00:51:35,79 effectiveness which is in life which is what this is all really about is just 655 00:51:35,80 --> 00:51:41,82 a mystery and if you think you look at people who have that kind of stoic calm that 656 00:51:41,83 --> 00:51:46,37 can be very noble and remarkable and enviable and it might even be very effective 657 00:51:46,41 --> 00:51:50,42 perhaps for some people some of the time but then if you look at famous artists and 658 00:51:50,43 --> 00:51:57,20 famous leaders. Most of them are total national screw ups and not me or you 659 00:51:57,21 --> 00:52:03,71 obviously. If you look at the total emotional screw up just to take them as 660 00:52:03,72 --> 00:52:05,20 a class you pick yourself half 661 00:52:05,21 --> 00:52:10,33 a dozen total immersion school should be very effective well so their being that 662 00:52:10,34 --> 00:52:15,24 way was part of what made them effective or made them less effective than they 663 00:52:15,25 --> 00:52:18,69 would have been if they hadn't been like that is something we just don't know and 664 00:52:18,70 --> 00:52:23,02 if that's the case none of the studies on either side show us anything about what 665 00:52:23,03 --> 00:52:24,43 we are trying to be like it's 666 00:52:24,44 --> 00:52:30,08 a really really profound point and I think I mean what I hope I did in this book. 667 00:52:31,47 --> 00:52:38,34 But only other people can judge really is is I don't think of it I 668 00:52:38,35 --> 00:52:41,68 mean as fundamentally at times book I would say it's fundamentally 669 00:52:41,69 --> 00:52:48,59 a philosophy book if I had to fit into one of those categories and so I I'm 670 00:52:48,60 --> 00:52:49,90 very much sort of advocate as 671 00:52:49,91 --> 00:52:53,44 a journalist writing about the things of of using the studies as kind of tools to 672 00:52:53,45 --> 00:52:57,67 think with not not sort of it's not 673 00:52:57,68 --> 00:53:00,25 a question of right you might think this and you might think that but here's one 674 00:53:00,26 --> 00:53:03,98 study that happened that university and that settles the issue it's rather. 675 00:53:06,91 --> 00:53:09,34 Firstly this book is mainly just sort of a rebalancing so it's 676 00:53:09,35 --> 00:53:12,26 a question of like you know we've all gone off in this direction but there is this 677 00:53:12,27 --> 00:53:15,23 whole side of things too and then secondly I think it's really 678 00:53:15,24 --> 00:53:20,91 a question of saying possibly the thinking about these studies and these 679 00:53:20,99 --> 00:53:26,91 philosophers insights and these. Sort of silly personal experiments that I run on 680 00:53:26,92 --> 00:53:30,23 myself possibly they can act as 681 00:53:30,24 --> 00:53:35,10 a sort of intervention in how you think about your own. Like not because you're 682 00:53:35,11 --> 00:53:36,69 going to follow the findings of 683 00:53:36,70 --> 00:53:40,81 a study but because it's going to sort of open up. Ways of thinking I think it's 684 00:53:40,82 --> 00:53:47,33 something that anyone in anything approximating finds journalism we are not the 685 00:53:47,34 --> 00:53:50,48 only thing myself the first journalist but to the extent that I am I think it's 686 00:53:50,49 --> 00:53:55,21 going to be really careful about because you're constantly. Simply choosing studies 687 00:53:55,22 --> 00:53:59,76 that work for you and ignoring the ones that don't I have to say I think I have 688 00:53:59,77 --> 00:54:05,89 some argument on my side based on the fact that several of the studies that the 689 00:54:05,90 --> 00:54:11,37 Tony Robbins types turn out to be fictional When you they don't even exist in the 690 00:54:11,38 --> 00:54:15,14 literature but your point is very well taken I mean I think I think these are so 691 00:54:15,15 --> 00:54:21,16 used to stop thinking about your own life rather than. Gospel truth to to follow 692 00:54:21,17 --> 00:54:28,03 because it's been proven to be true with the Power of Positive 693 00:54:28,04 --> 00:54:34,79 Thinking and the search and Amen working toward happiness I get 694 00:54:34,80 --> 00:54:41,39 totally exhausted at the very thought this is OK if I can just get through my day 695 00:54:41,92 --> 00:54:46,48 and do things that I succeed there and feel contempt with 696 00:54:48,67 --> 00:54:52,76 absolutely yeah I mean thank you for your question but yes yes. 697 00:55:00,83 --> 00:55:00,100 I have 698 00:55:01,01 --> 00:55:08,56 a couple of questions First I haven't read your book yet but I think I will. But 699 00:55:08,57 --> 00:55:14,01 what I've gotten from what you've said is what I've taken from it is. You're 700 00:55:14,02 --> 00:55:19,80 talking about this polarity that happens when people that showcase just on positive 701 00:55:19,84 --> 00:55:26,11 you know positive everything how that creates this huge space where we don't see 702 00:55:26,79 --> 00:55:31,84 reality essentially we're basically focused on this thing that we've imagined and. 703 00:55:33,79 --> 00:55:38,24 So I guess I just wanted to see if it's that's kind of where you were going with 704 00:55:38,25 --> 00:55:43,79 this that. Going just focusing on the positive you're basically missing 705 00:55:43,83 --> 00:55:48,83 a lot of information that could be useful and that brings up for me that can also 706 00:55:48,84 --> 00:55:54,93 happen with negative thinking. You know I know many people who have focused on 707 00:55:54,97 --> 00:56:01,88 negatively to their detriment so it makes me think it's not you're bringing up the 708 00:56:01,89 --> 00:56:07,25 Power of Negative Thinking it's very catchy I love the title. Mostly because of the 709 00:56:07,26 --> 00:56:14,22 culture that we're so bombarded with and you're trying to say. It's 710 00:56:14,23 --> 00:56:20,19 more about thinking and keeping it open and not getting trapped in this polarity or 711 00:56:20,20 --> 00:56:24,56 that. And yeah I want to know if that's kind of what you're saying you know it 712 00:56:24,57 --> 00:56:30,59 absolutely is and I would also add. That it's to do with this idea of will change 713 00:56:30,60 --> 00:56:37,09 because even for people who you may know who are problematically completely 714 00:56:37,10 --> 00:56:41,25 embedded in negativity you know think positive is really bad advice for those 715 00:56:41,82 --> 00:56:46,56 people usually you know personally but you know as a as 716 00:56:46,57 --> 00:56:49,68 a way of. Dealing with 717 00:56:49,68 --> 00:56:53,27 a problematic focus on negatives you know the worst advice that you can give 718 00:56:53,28 --> 00:56:57,53 a depressed person I think is you know to look on the bright side and to think 719 00:56:57,53 --> 00:57:02,05 positive so so you're completely right that it's to do with the sort of narrowness 720 00:57:02,06 --> 00:57:07,88 of the tunnel vision it would be totally possible to commit the opposite fallacy. 721 00:57:08,96 --> 00:57:13,05 In reverse which I sort of try to avoid But 722 00:57:15,94 --> 00:57:20,12 but then it's also about positive thinking as this idea of will change of emotions 723 00:57:20,13 --> 00:57:24,82 but I think that there's a sense in which that is maybe more of 724 00:57:24,83 --> 00:57:29,97 a feel more confident saying that's maybe pretty much always about I do here. Not 725 00:57:29,98 --> 00:57:36,94 because. Being positive is about it but because that kind of will change is is not 726 00:57:36,95 --> 00:57:43,08 how our minds are set up to work with us yes 727 00:57:43,55 --> 00:57:49,96 so what would you do somebody that's in that narrow negative 728 00:57:49,97 --> 00:57:56,96 thinking and maybe this is in your book and over just wondering. You know what 729 00:57:57,17 --> 00:58:03,02 if you're thinking lol gratitude like what that woman said I loved but she brought 730 00:58:03,18 --> 00:58:08,61 it up basically if you think you're thinking about how bad things can be it makes 731 00:58:08,62 --> 00:58:13,51 you reflect on Actually things are good and you can appreciate the things that you 732 00:58:13,52 --> 00:58:20,06 would have been missing you know so. That's I guess that's my next 733 00:58:20,07 --> 00:58:26,83 question is. You know would you say what is when you're talking about the antidote 734 00:58:26,84 --> 00:58:27,37 Yeah that's 735 00:58:27,38 --> 00:58:32,78 a powerful word What's that what your thoughts on the antidote to the narrow 736 00:58:32,79 --> 00:58:38,59 negative thinking I mean to the extent that we're sort of partly talking here about 737 00:58:38,59 --> 00:58:43,64 . How to treat depression I think I have you know this is the point at which I have 738 00:58:43,65 --> 00:58:46,33 to point out that I'm not a don't claim to be 739 00:58:46,34 --> 00:58:51,86 a qualified therapist or anything like that. But broadly I think that they are the 740 00:58:51,87 --> 00:58:58,46 same things because I think you're talking about I think what causes the 741 00:58:58,48 --> 00:59:05,44 problems with that kind of negativity is is what would cause attachment to it it is 742 00:59:05,45 --> 00:59:11,84 the kind of it's the it's the inability to let it arise and pass away so in that 743 00:59:11,85 --> 00:59:13,28 sense I think you know there is 744 00:59:13,30 --> 00:59:18,53 a lot of evidence about the efficacy of meditation and the efficacy of. 745 00:59:20,74 --> 00:59:24,68 Of the sort of those kinds of exercises acceptance and commitment therapy is 746 00:59:24,69 --> 00:59:29,51 a very interesting fairly young field that has to do with Again these ideas of 747 00:59:29,52 --> 00:59:29,84 becoming 748 00:59:29,85 --> 00:59:33,96 a bigger container they call it diffusion I think about learning to be in the 749 00:59:33,97 --> 00:59:37,47 presence of those emotions without them sort of coming to define you so many ways 750 00:59:37,48 --> 00:59:44,22 actually look it actually looks very similar I think the the approach to that. But 751 00:59:44,23 --> 00:59:48,41 I think also the prevent the negative visualization thing in some for some people 752 00:59:48,42 --> 00:59:49,06 could work there was 753 00:59:49,07 --> 00:59:53,44 a tradition of. Paradoxical therapy it sort of died out now but there was 754 00:59:53,45 --> 00:59:56,34 a sort of tradition of telling people who are very worried about things to worry 755 00:59:56,35 --> 01:00:01,64 really hard and. Feeling sad about things to try really hard to feel sad you know 756 01:00:01,78 --> 01:00:05,86 it depends on the person but. I think it all comes down to the same thing which is 757 01:00:05,87 --> 01:00:11,74 sort of being being OK in the presence of both sides of the coin rather than just 758 01:00:11,75 --> 01:00:16,97 trying to stamp out either side of the human emotional repertoire really. 759 01:00:18,79 --> 01:00:22,82 That yeah. Thank you it's 760 01:00:22,83 --> 01:00:29,26 a time for just one more question and then we get to that. So as somebody with no 761 01:00:29,27 --> 01:00:34,41 faults whatsoever I can't relate to any of this. Talk I was that was 762 01:00:34,42 --> 01:00:41,10 a joke. So so as I understand this you know I haven't read your book 763 01:00:41,31 --> 01:00:48,07 Full disclosure. A lot of what you said is basically being willing to grapple with 764 01:00:48,32 --> 01:00:52,60 all the aspects of reality not just necessarily the ones that you would like to see 765 01:00:52,61 --> 01:00:58,15 in any given and that's right so I mean I think this was I think it was Lovecraft 766 01:00:58,17 --> 01:01:04,44 who wrote about this but it could have been somebody else. I recall there was an 767 01:01:04,45 --> 01:01:10,91 author who once. Made the argument that we human beings are 768 01:01:10,95 --> 01:01:17,90 essentially. That that some amount of delusion is necessary to maintain our 769 01:01:17,91 --> 01:01:18,96 sanity in 770 01:01:19,31 --> 01:01:25,93 a world that is as treacherous and uncertain as ours is so my 771 01:01:25,94 --> 01:01:29,58 question would be what would you make of that kind of argument I mean would you say 772 01:01:29,59 --> 01:01:35,72 that's more an over reaction to the sort of hyper of positivity that's out there or 773 01:01:36,38 --> 01:01:40,09 I mean what where would you go it's really interesting because it also ties into 774 01:01:40,10 --> 01:01:45,01 that whole all these findings about I think they've become contested recently but 775 01:01:45,02 --> 01:01:49,50 those findings about depressive realism in the way that. Depressed people have 776 01:01:49,51 --> 01:01:54,87 a more accurate grasp of their control over their circumstances than depressed 777 01:01:54,88 --> 01:02:01,83 people do. I think that in terms of how it 778 01:02:01,84 --> 01:02:07,76 fits together with this it really just. I mean I've thought I'm repeating myself 779 01:02:07,77 --> 01:02:13,64 a little bit but it it comes back to the distinction between what you think first 780 01:02:13,65 --> 01:02:20,31 is what you try to make yourself think and I think that so that I have 781 01:02:20,32 --> 01:02:23,93 a lot of simply with the idea that a certain amount of healthy 782 01:02:24,46 --> 01:02:29,45 a certain amount of pollution is probably quite healthy for us to go through our 783 01:02:29,46 --> 01:02:36,29 lives trying to encourage that delusion by first of will into believing that you 784 01:02:36,30 --> 01:02:40,54 are already on the path to becoming a multi-millionaire or 785 01:02:40,55 --> 01:02:42,56 a whatever it may be I think that is 786 01:02:42,57 --> 01:02:47,23 a different. A different thing because then that's that idea of the will change 787 01:02:47,24 --> 01:02:54,06 that. That seems so full that into the sort of ironic. Mechanism in the mind that 788 01:02:54,10 --> 01:02:59,70 causes the opposite to happen so I don't think that incompatible. But I don't 789 01:02:59,71 --> 01:03:06,01 really explore in this book that. I've heard and I think. Everything in moderation 790 01:03:06,02 --> 01:03:07,17 including maybe 791 01:03:07,18 --> 01:03:12,91 a little delusion perhaps Yeah and meditation as well and I absolutely deafening 792 01:03:13,87 --> 01:03:14,07 thank 793 01:03:14,03 --> 01:03:14,79 you you thank 794 01:03:40,92 --> 01:03:40,92 .