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INDEX
FIRST DAY ~ Morniiiff Session:
Address of Welcome by Governor Henry H. Blood of Utah. .. . ...... A- 1
Address by First Ass't Secretary of Interior T. A, Walters .' A- 2
(including messages from the President ef the United States
and the Secretary of the Interior©)
Announcement of Order of Business by Director F« R. Carpenter A- 7
Discussion - Grazing Fees . . „ A- 9
FIRST DAY - Afternoon Session
Address by Assistant Secretary Oscar Chapman. . . ,- . a . . . , ...... . .... „
Greeting from Senator Elbert D, Thomas of Utah (Read by Mr. Carpenter). .
Message from Congressman Edward T, Taylor (Read by Mr. Carpenter.)
DISCUSSION:
Local assessments „ ..............
Motion - "Who shall be allowed to votoe .
Policies:
1* Chango in order of preferential classes for licenses,, „ „ . .
Motion. ,»••«•.*.«••••••. o.
2c. Division of dependent property into classos0 ........ .v. . .
Motion* • -• • •
30 Should cuts r/ithin a class be made on numbers or by
restriction of season of use
4« Should temporary allocations of range be incorporated
in 1936 licenses
5. Should commensurate property bo divided into classes
and definitely defined*,
A-19
A~20
A- 20
A-2D
A~22
A-23
•A~26-
A-23
A-,52-
0 o c e « .
...... ...0
0 <■
SECOND DAY ~ Morning Session
Talk by Mr. Julian Tcrritt, Assistant Director of Grazing. . «... . .
Recommendations of State Committees, following caucus:
■lirlZOnuf o6«,»ea«..»'*».«.eo6eaaeoOQooooc>oooo«fc«.»sooeQ -» . « • a a .
California . . . * .
-' 0 -L ( J J. L L Q i ' o o o o <\ <> o o • . . o . • o 9 * e< p . o o * o o o o o o o 9 6 e- c o u o o a a a o o » -o u o . a o o o
XaanO e«ooQoooQ0<i«.4.o,<«o»i>oou0
UrOgOHo .0.0««l....OOO..«.». .6OO0
Montana. .»..e. »..•••
New Mexiooo o ....... o
Nevada
Utah,
Wyoming
Talk by Director F. R„ Carpenter
J_iO D Dyillg »oo.o.o...s..oeao«..9iiosD
Special rules of the rango recommended by district boards. .„
Licenses as grazing privileges u » , « , « 9 « « » 0 «« o . <> o ».» • o • g
Placing responsibility -on local boards ,,.«. . „ q ........ ... .... p*
Enf or cement , of rules' and regulations by Government agencies,,
SECOND DAY - Afternoon Session
6....O0.O.
..B..t>.... .. ......
..eboooo.eo.ooe
-0a.....o..-.....9«.oQ.0fl00..«6Qoa
'CO».00'i...*OB«O.O«.000(100OO0XuO000
1ootaeoo.ooooi/o*c-uoo<joc..o.o.o.o.o..
..0.0 ... ...........
.000. .0000000*
oociaouo'4.
O O 0 0 o
. . o
♦ . o
a 6 e
. a ■
A.-36
A- 3,7
A~42
B- 1
B- 2.
B- 3
B~ 4
B« 5
B~ 7
B- 7
B- S
B- 9
B-10
B-ll
B-13
B-13
B-14
B-14
B-15
B-15
B~19
Tolegrara from Socretary of Interior regarding Assessments..,..,,,.
Motion - Range allotments in 1936 licenses „ ....<> m ««.**« o « «<>><><>« «
Motion -fDivision of dependent property into classes. .. •-.•••. .«•• .
Motion and Discussion - Dcfini.ng commonsurate property.. ......... .
Motion (redraft) and Discussion - Rango allotments in 1936 licens
Motion (redraft) and. Discussion - Division of Dependent Property
into classes...
Motion and Discussion - License Fees
•J J- g 3.1L 1 Z a \j J-0!li o « g .OOO.OOO.&..OV.90O.O
Improvements. . . , . „ . .
Resolution of thanks
o . e o .
OS,
.eoopoOi>o0»*
• aueo, ea.ua
...... a.
■>oo...e*
U4,..»Q.0...Q •
J . o ,/ « y <. -J It u < I o
*<<..•. a.o.vu.
• <! a ...'.«, .
ao*.9..(/.*0.4'.
aoo........*.*
u «
B-2^
B-21
B-23
B-23
B-26
B-29
B-S5
B~42
B-43
B-43
B-51
i BMaBtfgaBaaBgMBB^SBi
^i^h^^iASff^j*^
A-l
PlgTRIggL-Ajy/ISORS1 OOiWErTI-ON
"salt Lake"-0ity, Utah
January 13 anc) 14, 1936
FIRST DAY
Mo riling Session
(Meeting called to order at 10:00 A.M., January 13, 1936, in the Lafayette
Ballroom, Hotel Utah, Salt' Lake City, Utah).
RADIO ANNOUNCER: Nearly 1,000 stockmen from ten Western States have
assembled this morning in Salt Lake City's Hotel Utah to confer ■JthJ^R-
Carpenter, Director of Grazing, and other representatives ci the Department
of the Interior on the administration of the Taylor Act providing for *£
prober use of the public domain by graziers of livestocK Assistant Secretary
of the Interior T. A. Halters has come to the meeting as the representative of
Secretary Harold L. Ickes , bringing messages from both the Secretary and
President Doosevelt. Governor Henry H. Blood of Utah opens the conference by
briefly welcoming the delegates.
GOVERNOR HENRY H. BLOOD OF UTAH: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Walters and other
repreeentatives of the Department of the Interior an A lives £»£"£• £
gives me real pleasure to welcome you here en behalf of the State of Utah,
and to assure you of our desire that your stay will be as pleasant as we
know it will be profitable. The State is glad to t.e host. to a gathering of
this kind.
The last decade of adverse climatic conditions served as a timely warning
that the day of unrestricted use of public lands for grazing purposes was at
an end Something had to be done. And that something had to be done now.
Utah was the original supporter of a movement for proper regulation by
the Federal Government of the public domain. The Taylor Grazing .Act and the
rules and regulations based upon it constitute toe machinery set up to
accomplish this purpose. We are all of one mind in the hope that a success ul
cSation of our plans and wisbes will be realized. ^^"^ftS.
gentlemen who represent the major interests aifec.ed We know and ■■ «e
which affects the West for all time to come, nra broad and just .pint.
Many times the thought has been expressed that there ore only two .major
interests directly affected by the program of administration o^ne public
range. This is not wholly correct. I can hardly eoroeive oi an activity
witnin a State that is not vixaily affected by the graz3ng pro clem In so
far as a proprietary interest in the lane is concerns *fl"^td3^B which
involved. First, the owner of the fee lands: se-vad the Uni.ed .^ates mien
is in a position of trustee; third, each individual State, whicn, as in the
case of the individual, owns the land in fee simple -..-tie.
The Department of the Interior is the delegated federal authority to
administer the public, domain. You members of advisory boards are .e.s pert od to
fid with your knowledge, ripened by your many years of experience m the
livestock industry.
. Just as the Department of the Interior through *ho Grazing Division is
charged with a trusteeship of the remaining public domain so are the
verious land departments of the public land States assigned the dutj oi
fil lit tf tftliHga*kA>> ife*31LaUM^,iiLMX
pg^^PH&gH&usswmwwmmsmBBBftt^
A- 2
administering the State lands for the purpose of raising funds for the support
of the institutions for which the lands were granted to the State by the
Federal Government,
The third ownership, representing individual holdings which he-ve been
acquired in various ways, is also seriously concerned with the problem of
administration of what has formerly been its public pasture grounds. Speaking
for Utah alone this thirc) interest is abnormally great because of the
community .life which is typical of rural districts in this State. The
interests of the residents of these small towns and hamlets are worthy of
careful consideration.
. As you know, State land holdings are scattered in many thousands of
individual tracts. Since the enactment of the Taylor Grazing legislation,
the land departments of all of the Western States have been endeavoring to
work out in a cooperative way a solution of what is admittedly a perplexing
problem. As I understand it, their unanimous opinion is that those State
lands should be grouped into compact bodies. This is a question which must
be decided between the States and the Federal Government. It should be
possible to bring about a consistent and satisfactory settlement of the
issue.
May I say in conclusion that it interested me greatly to learn that my
own State has 6,500 of the 15,000 licensees in the ten Western State
districts? This State is, therefore, not only the geographical center of
the public domain, but is also economically its core.
Mr. Walters, I wish to welcome you in a personal way as representative
in this large gathering of the President of the United States, who signed
the Taylor Grazing Act, and of Secretary Harold L. Takes, of the Department of
the Interior, who has initiated its administration. I also welcome other
representatives of your Department.
Permit me to wish this conference every success in its deliberations.
MR. CABPENTER: Thank you Governor Blood. It was the original intention
of Secretary of the Interior Ickes, who has taken a keen personal interest in
every step of the administration of the Taylor Act, to appear in person
before this conference. Press of business, however, made it impossible for
him to attend. In his stead he has sent Mr. T. A. V/i.' Iters, First Assistant
Secretary of the Interior, who has a message from his chief as well as the
greetings of President Roosevelt to this conference.
Secretary Walters is known personally to many of the delegates from Idaho
Others know him because of his leadership in civic and public affairs and
through his work as chairman of that State's Board of Education. I take
pleasure in presenting First Assistant Secretary Walters.
MR. WALTERS: Mr. Chairman, Governor Bloo'3 , Ladies and Gentlemen: It
is not only a pleasure but a privilege for me to meet with you this morning,
and I am delighted that so many of you are present. I have the distinct
and distinguished honor of presenting to you this morning, through the
Secretary of the Interior, a message from our great President Franklin
D. Roosevelt. (applause)
"The White House, January 3, 1936. The Honorable, The Secretary of the
Interior. My dear Mr. Secretary: On the occasion of the forthcoming Salt
Lake City grazing conference, I desire to offer my congratulations.
"The grazing program on the public domain under the Taylor Grazing Act
is a new conservation movement that"- promises to have historic significance.
It i3 the first time since the settlement of the West that there is an
opportunity to regulate over-grazing on the public domain. In less than
fifteen months after the law was enacted the cattle and sheep men have
buried their differences and combined in a joint effort to abolish unfair
range practices and to conserve natural rt.sourcor. The most noteworthy
feature of the program, however, is the unique coordination of local and
Federal effort whereby fifteen thousand stockmen have participated success-
fully in the policy of the Department of the interior to give local autonomy
in the administration of the nc-7/ law.
"Yery sincerely yours, /
?r a n k ."1 i t ; P . I < o o » e v e 1 1 "
), ,, i ,J^lj,,rnir»--~^t-^^
My great immediate chief, Secretary of the Interior, has also sent a special
message dated January 6, Department of the Interior.
"To the Members of the District Advisory Boards and others attending the
Salt Lake Grazing Conference. •.:
"It had been my hope and expectation to be with you on this important
occasion, but demands upon my time have made it impossible. However., I have
designated other officials of the Department to be present, and they will be
prepared to discuss with you all phases of the grazing program. -.1 am taking
this opportunity to extend to you my best wishes for a successful meeting.
• . "Notable progress has been made in carrying out the grazing program since
the preliminary organization stage has1 been completed. In any new undertaking
of this kind many questions of policy and procedure inevitably arise which
must be determined, with a proper consideration of the law and of the
diversified interests involved.. This is especially true if such a stupendous
cooperative plan of administration, as we have decided upon, is to be
established and maintained.
"Various rules and regulations iuwe been promulgated for the development
and use of the range and others are being compiled.' All of these are in the
interest of orderly and simplified procedure. The assistance given to the
Department of the Interior. by the duly elected members of the Advisory Boards
has expedited the transaction of business and has made possible a smoothness ox
operation that otherwise would be impossible.
'■■■has I said at the Denver Conference last year, the District Advisory
Boards are expected to. work out and propose an equitable apportionment of
available range privileges within each district . The Boards will not have
administrative functions. Their functions while advisory will be of the .
highest possible use to the Department of the Interior and of great beneiit
to the grazing interests if they are wisely used. Already, as a result of
the work of these Boards, approximately 15,000 temporary licenses have been
issued during the past few months. I want these Boards to have and to ■
exercise all of the responsibilities which they can carry and which, within
the law, it is possible for them to carry.
"I am sure that everyone interested in the grazing law understands that
the administrative functions are conferred in express terms upon the Secre-
tary of the Interior. Those administrative functions, I have no power to
delegate to others. For the- purpose, of enlisting the interest and the active
cooperation of the stockmen of the West, I did authorize the setting up of the
Advisory Boards to act in the capacity which their name implies. I want these
Boards to exercise all the rights and assume all the responsibilities
consistent with a sound administration of the Taylor Grazing Act that they can
a exercise and assume under the law. It will be understood, of course, that no
executive officer has any power' to go beyond the law that limits and
defines his authority.
"One of the principal purposes of the present conference is to discuss the
question of grazing fees as provided by the law. I '."ill refer again to a
statement I made at the Denver conference which I still believe to be
applicable. I quote: \
• ■ •
'The Interior Department" will have no quarrel with stockmen
on that subject. You are willing to pay reasonable foes, and
that is all we will' expect. I believe that fees should be on a
sliding scale varying with the earning capacity of the land as
measured by the market value of the livestock grazed upon it.
Fees should not be so low as to arouse the envy of those not
': entitled to public range rights or as to subject the permittees
- to a charge of receiving a Government subsidy.
/
nj.\'t'.|
'The whole question of fees, at the beginning, will be ex-
perimental. Me will approach the matter, r/ith an open mind and
consider it from the standpoint alike ol] the .public interest and
■of the welfare of the stockmen.1
■' ;'
-•«
.;-;>'
A-4
Since the Denver meeting we have gone far toward placing the grazing pro-
gram on a sound basis , and I am sure that the report of* progress which Director
Carpenter' and others will make to you will meet with your unqualified •approvcjl.
i
"Sincerely yours , ' • J
s •
Sii
§i
'. ;}
"Harold L. I ekes, |r
"Secretary of the Interior"
Friends of the West: It is altogether fitting and proper that President
Roosevelt should hove signally honored this meeting with the congratulatory
message which I have had the pleasure to deliver to you, for this is indeed an
historic occasion. This convention is a mile-stone on the road of American
conservation, no longer a narrow path beaten through the wilderness by the
dogged determination of the Deportment of the Interior, but a broad '
well-planned highway, built through understanding and cooperation, and leading
literally to greener pastures. •
It is an' occasion because this meeting is the first of its kind in the
history of the industry. It is a pioneer gathering of the representatives of
western stockmen bent on establishing r. new frontier, - and I use; the term
"frontier" in its fullest meaning, - "an" advanced region of settlement and
civilization". We have advanced under the Taylor Grazing Act to the settlement
of important economic problems as well as administrative questions. We are,
therefore, establishing a new frontier for the stock industry of the West. V/e
hope to perpetuate all the spirit and romance of the Old West and weave it into
a. sustained and regulated industry of the future.
The romance, of the West' has not vanished like the waters of a dry river.
'It has merely changed to less spectacular but certainly to no less thrilling
courses. You have but to substitute "the saving of the West" for the empire
builders "battle cry "the winning of the West" to realize the full import of
the present undertaking. Stockmen rill no longer have to win and hold range
. "lands in the West against human marauder, but they will have to battle the
•forces of nature to' save the rolling range from erosion and from the
''unrestricted competition leading to devastating over-grazing.
i
This first annual meeting of the grazing district advisors, - and I am
proud to stress the word "annual", - is unique in our annals as it initiates
a yearly gathering of those dedicated to the policy of a Torudent use of
-public grazing ■■ lands' for the benefit of the livestock industry. We are
gathered together because the administration of the Taylor Grazing Law, under
•the rules and regulations set up under the Department of the Interior, calls for.
your advice and recommendations. It will be recalled that Secretary Ickes,
speaking to the stockmen of the West at Denver, Colorado, eleven months ago,
said, "a patriotic regard for the highest interest of the National will impel
you, I am sure, to work hand in hand -/ith your Government in making this
epochal Act the means of a National contribution to the prosperity and con-
tentment of the whole people"; It was in that same speech that he predicted
that the election and use of advisory beards of stockmen in every grazing
district on the public lands would play an important and vital part in the
administration of the Act. 'The presence horeto.ay of more than 130 delegates
from the 34 grazing districts now operating in 10 States of the West is
l>roof, positive, of the fulfillment of the Secretary's prediction.
Few laws administered by the National Government so vitally affe
economic welfare, the industrial activities, and even the standard of
of the Notion as does the Taylor Grazing Act. Through it we seek to
one of our great national resources, - the remaining public lands of
By conservation we mean not only to hold for future use the remaining
acres of the Western States, but also to overcome erosion and its evi
oh the water supply in a land where water is life, not only for agric
purposes but for the benefit of urban populations which more than eve
depend on the streams and rivers which take their rise on the public
ct the
living
conserve
the West.
broad
1 effects
ultural
r will
domain.
* The President pointed out in his message to you "as the moot noteworthy ^
feature of the program **** the unique coordination of local and Federal
agencies whereby 15,000 stockmen have participated successfully in the policy ,„>
in afegfgagafiBsaiBg
A-5
of the Department of the Interior to give local autonomy in the administration
of the nev/ law". Certainly no one is better qualified to advise and recommend
in the administration of the Taylor Grazing Act then you delegates from the 34
grazing districts. This Act, like the majority of laws onactea by, Congress
-as postulated and grew out of the actual experience of the industry which, it
is designed to perpetuate. Its administration is being developed on that same
principal and your presence here today shows -how successfully this is being
accomplished.
The Department of the interior, charged by law with the administration of
the Act, has had, and has now, absolutely no intention of setting up a bureau-
cratic, despotic organization to carry out the purposes of the Act. The
Department earnestly prefers to take advantage of your wid'e knowledge /of local
and general conditions and to use your services to develop a cooperative, move-
ment for your benefit and for the benefit of the Nation. .
i
. :•' The attitude of the Department is sell illustrated by the history of its-
effort to put the Act into operation. It rill he recalled that almost immedi-
ately following the signing of the Act by the President, a party from the
Department, headed by Assistant Secretary Oscar L. Chapman, came to the v/est
for the purpose of contacting the stockmen and learning their rashes ancl
profiting by the experience of the citizens of that portion of the country in
which the Act is of paramount importance. This was followed by a series of
State meetings where the. stockmen themselves suggested the bouncori.es and size
of the grazing districts. Then, after a period of study of drafting regula-
tions, and of coordination of information in Washington, the rules for the
apportionment of the ranges and for the distribution of licenses "-re brought
West and submitted to you for criticism and advices before being ^ally
approved by the- Secretary., Elections of grazing district advisors ■ in each of
III 54 districts followed.' With the formation of advisory boards, recommenda-
tions on the applications for grazing licenses and for the establishment of
rules for fair range practice follow* quickly. This proceduro is new and
practically unheard o? in establishing an organization to execute a national law.
It is., however, in accordance with the finest conception of democratic coopera-
tionand government by the consent of the governed.
May we summarize some of the accomplishments since the' establis hmont of
the first grazing district. There arc now 34 fully -^^f ^ist^cts
districts The elected representatives of. the industry in those 34 districts
advise and assist in .the administration of practically 80 »0 00 acres o
public grazing land in 10 Ylcstorn States. In round numbers, 15,000 grazing
Ucenses have'boen issued for 8,000,000 head of cattle, sheep horse and ££..
This, in itself, is an achievement In so short a space of time ^"e licenses
reveal significant and relevant facts. They are, that of all of the cuttle
licenses issued 94* are for less than. 500 head, and of nil the sheep licenses
issued 87* are for less than 3,000 sheep. In other words, it is apparent that
the Taylor Grazing Act is already functioning to nn amazing and Gratifying ,
aegree in protecting and encouraging the little man. This is a consummation
muth ?o be desired. Herdsmen with a small flock, the farmer with a small , .,'
number of sheep or cattle is as much entitled to the use of the public domain
as is the large operator. The operation of the Act has already in a large
measure done two things long hoped for, that is, the burial of ^e differences
between the cattle and sheep men, and the establishment of peace between the
big operator and the little fellow.
These results have been brought about under the. rules .and regulations set
up by the .interior Department which, incidentally, employs only o7 full time
people in the Division of Grazing. The Department, hoover has had the
advice of 509 district board advisors who are familiar with local problems and
conditions. In the election of the District Advisory Boarcls the P™le ox
:"0ne rum - one vote" was put into practice and vt was a perfectly natural
result that the 94 and 87 percent of the "little mar." received a fair and
.proportionate representation on all of the. advisory boards.
*The way in which the District Advisory Boards h-v/e assisted in this work
has been molt gratifying. You have adopted „ wholly non-partisan attitude and
earnestly sought to provide the vital basic inf Motion concerning range
,;
V
TTfrfm'fr^T.T^i^
A-fi
»
.'■■
: ■
'■ ! i
operations in your respectiv.9 localities. You are to he complimented on your
willingness to accept the many responsibilities in recommending and advising on
the solution of the .difficult problems which have arisen and will arise. ' The
Department has faith in you and in this cooperative system of administration.
The success of our effort is primarily one of conservation and restoration.
In many places on our public lands forage resources have practically -dis-
appeared. Development of the industry depends upon the improvement of range
conditions. Under the leadership of President Roosevelt, conservation of 'our
national resources has become a reality, and now mediums of conservation have
been created. One of these is the. Civilian Conservation Corps. V/e ht.ve
available through the CCC a means whereby range improvements which would
otherwise take years to accomplish may be made in a comparatively short time.
Before the enactment of the Taylor Grazing Act it was not thought 'advisable to ,
make range improvements because there was no adequate protection for them when
they were completed. The Crazing Act now provides this protection and the ■,:.
Department intends to further the CCC program of improvements to the fullest
possible extent. . , f
i
There are now 43 CCC camps in operation on various portions of the public
domain, chiefly in the southern areas where they are now engaged in important
work. During the coming season we hope, and expect, to begin similar work in
higher and more northern regions. There has been more than a little apprehen-
sion among you concerning possible curtailment of our CCC program. I can
assure you now that there will be no cut at thin time. Moreover, we are making
strenuous efforts to obtain additional camps through which this program can be°
spread to all areas of the public domain.
The law specifies that permits shall not he issued until the land has been
classified. The Division of Grazing has already be$un this work which includes
classification studies of ranges and of commensurate properties so that these
leases can be related to the land and water owned, occupied, or leased by stock-
men within or near grazing districts. In order to expedite the work of classi-
fication, an additional force of qualified "range men will soon be employed. The
President has.. re commended to the Congress an increase- in appropriations for this
classification work.
Under existing rules and regulations and Executive Orders, Sections 8, 14
and 15 of the Taylor Grazing Act are now operating. Regulations for the
leasing of land). under Section 15 have been approved and are here for distribu-
tion. This Section provides for the leasing of isolated tracts of lend to
contiguous land owners for grazing purposes. Inasmuch as these lands are to
be leased in blocks of 640 acres or more' to owners of adjacent land, may I
point out that with the issuance of.tfiese finiil regulations the first move in
the leasing of these lands must come from neighboring land owners. Since the
preliminary regulations for leasing these lands were formulated en September
20, 1934, there have been received 3,200 applications for leases. Each lease
will be handled separately and the terms of the lease will depend on the
local conditions.
Section 14 authorizes the Secretary of the Interior, in his discretion,
to order the sale of isolated tracts of the public domain which do not exceed
7^0 acres. It also grants to contiguous land owners a preference right to buy
the offered lands at the highest bid price, not exceeding three times the
appraised value.
Section 8 of the law authorizes exchanges in the public interest of State
and privately owned lands of equal value for public lands. Regulations for
the operation of this Section were issued on February 8, 1935. They were
amended on November 20th so that no fees are required on exchanges involving
State-owned lands. It may interest you to know that so far there have been""
filed 236 applications for exchanges of State-owned lands and 10 applications
involving land in private ownership. We aro working on arrangements which will
make it unnecessary to refer to the Division of Grazing all applications
involving lands so situated as not to justify their inclusion in grazing
districts, and thus expedite action under these three sections of the Taylor
Grazing Law.
i M^^«ra^i^^Hh^
1 . --:-: v»*-ip*>^^^;t'tliliflf^hfflfii,i- - fa 1*1 -■'!.■ ■-■ -VivJi iiMv^
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A- 7
We are now faced with the larger and more difficult problem of establishing
equitable and reasonable fees. It must be assumed that benefits which will
accrue under the Grazing Act cannot be obtained wholly without cost to the
livestock industry. The Act contemplates and imposes upon the Department of the
Interior the duty of fixing a charge to be paid in the form of grazing fees. Of
these fees, 50% of the money collected is returnable to the States for local
purposes and 25$ is, upon appropriation by Congress, to be used for the .
improvement of the range. , j. ■
• . I
It might "be well to banish the ghosts of a few rumors which have been
wandering- in melancholy fashion around the West. The, Department of the .
Interior has not now, and never had, any intention of adopting a scale of high
fees. One of the purposes of this meeting is to work out a fee which will be
reasonable and satisfactory to^ the. industry.
Representatives of the stock industry have suggested that a nominal .grazing
fee be established during the license period 7/hicn would be less than that;
charged when permits are issued, a permit is an asset, different in character
from. a license and would justify a larger fee. It has been suggested that a "..
temporary fee of five cents per-head-per-month for cattle and one cent
per-head-per-month for sheep be established. 1 was very glad to have these
suggestions come from stockmen and they soem to me to be reasonable and , v
practical. This will prevent any discrimination between those using the
year-round range and part-year range. It will also prevent discrimination
between those using ranges of varying quality, which would arise under on
acreage basis. On a head-per-month basis, those using a scant range will pay
no more per month per animal than those using a well covered range. The
suggestion of the five cents per-head-per-month fee for cattle and a one cent
per-head-per-month fee for sheep .will, in my opinion, have the favorable con-
sideration of the Department. By setting up 3 nominal fee, we will gain, iSome.-;<
time to settle certain problems before us and to attack problems which will
arise in the adjustment of the permanent fee. Unaer the adopted practice and
procedure any suggestion as to fees is subject to the approval of the Department.
YThile our great President, Franklin D. Roosevelt, and my dynamic, and
efficient superior, Secretary Ickes, are true conservationists, they are also
practical men. Your problems are real to them and receive rational and sym-
pathetic consideration. I feel that coordinated, democratic, and understanding
administration of the Taylor Grazing Act will meet the problems of the present
and measure up to the possibilities of tho future.
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I thank you.
MR. CARPENTER: Thank you Secretary Walters. Gentlemen we are ready for
business, and in order that you may understand the method that we will use, I
will say that we expect to conduct this conference in a rather different way
■than what many conventions you may have attended have been handled. V/e have
worked together before but largely in separate States.
We are now gathered, the 10 States by delegates, here together. It is
necessary, therefore, for us to get the national objective of the act clearly
in mind and do all that can be done in two clays to get closer to that
objective. I will state briefly, in order that we. may never have absent from
our minds, what I conceive to be that objective, and that is the proper use of
the lands not only of the public lands but commensurate property so situated
around and scattered through this. public domain, that in order to have any value
to men they must be hooked up with range rights.
The second objective, which will follow naturally when the first is attained,
is to stabilize this business, which means a living to all of us. Now we have
been, engaged in the last 17 months in steps approaching that objective. It
seems. proper at this time that we should take a little account cf ■ stock and
see what we have done, but more than that we want to take further steps in the
same direction provided we have been headed right. In order to got there it
would seem that the policy of discussion would be more fitting for this assembly
than a matter of papers and speeches, and for that reason there will be no more
formal, papers or speeches made at this convention until the last afternoon of the
lafit day, when the last two topics will be taken up briefly by speakers with
fivo minutes allotted to them.
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The entire business of the convention will be divided under four heads.
The subjects of finances and policies will consume today and half of tomorrow,
and the last two subjects are organization and improvements. The first topic
is the topic of finances arid in discussing- it, rafter the problem is stated,
ye will call for discussion from the floor and various. points of view.
Immediately after the noon hour you will be asked, 'in order that we can £,et
our machinery into action, to meet by States and meet under the banner for
your State in this room and elect a temporary State chairman who , when that
State is called upon to give the point of view, will have -a spokesman. We will
then be ready for business a&Yiri at 2:00 o'clock. Vte will then "take up the
matter, if we have not finished it, of finances and start in with the matter of
'policies, which v/ill take the rest of the day and tomorrow morning.
For those primarily interested in the sale, lease, and exchange of land,
as Assistant Secretary Walters has told you, there will be a separate meeting ■/
at 2:30 this afternoon on the roof garden where the assistant Secretary and
Mr. Havel 1 will be present with' their regulations and £0 into that interesting ,. "
.subject, ond you are all invited to attend that meeting on the roof garden 1 (
arid' we will go ahead with the primary grazing work hero in this room at the < ,y
same time .
I have not boen trying to work on a split minute, but, I figured we would
reach this point at eleven o'clock and it is now four minutes to, so I will tell
you we are running right on schedule.
The first order of business is to take up the subject" of finances before
-we approach the matter of fees. It is well to know what the budget of the
Division of Grazing includes, and for your convenience that is set forth in the
program' paper on the third page', which you have in your hands. I will do no
more than run over it , and 'then if 'there is a question or two, answer it*. Then
we will take up the matter of fees.
The Federal fiscal year runs from duly lat to July 1st, and the fiscal year
that we are now in the second half of, which in official parlance is denominated
the 36th finance year, provided $150,00(1 for ulta full time employees of the
Division of Grazing and expenses and $100,000 for ths district advisors. There
was transferred from the Geological Survey $68,000 more. V/e have not nearly
used up that apportionment, neither has the full time Division of Grazing used
'their half, nor have the district advisors used their half, and yo\i may smile
and think when you are through maybe you will owe the Federal Government some-
thing for working. But I wish to assure you that this was a new method of
paying district advisors, and the necessary tape bo unwind is being unwound.
You. may all be assured that you will get your pay, and if you don't you may be
assured your heirs and assigns will.
Now, gentlemen, next year the budget, as approved by the Appropriations
Committee of Congress with whom I met a few weeks ar;o, calls for a total of
§412,000: For the full time employees $312,000; for district advisors #100,000.
The increase in the full time Division is due to the necessity for the
ran.-e examination which we are .^oina; to undertake this year in order to make
the necessary range allocations and allotments, r.nd particularly to get the
land ready for term permits which is the first ::rsut . and permanent step for the
protection of land and the stabilization of livestock values, and, of course,
• for the conservation and development of what rrows on it.
Are there any questions on this budget? If not , I wish to say
the relation of the budget to the fee may or may not be desired by the stockmen
to be considered. You will recollect that the Taylor Act says that 50$ of all
the fees shall go to tho States for the use of the counties. Now it is not
denominated what the counties may~use it for. The counties help take care of
the -oor — or they used to. They have quite a bit to do with the roads. They
hove' their county revenue funds for the pay of county officers and incidental
expenses*. Also under the county comes a general school tax. In m</ own State,
Colorado, the legislature has said that 5C?o of the Taylor fees shall fio from
the Federal Treasury to the State Treasury to the county treasury ond into the
general school tax. If the State legislatures dp not act, it will ^o into the
general fund, wherever tihe county commissioners wish to put it.
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:
In tho State of Oregon and the State of Nevada the legislatures have met and
said that the State Treasury and the county treasury .shall be a conduit for 50$
of the fee which shall thereupon be paid over to the district advisors for the
betterment of the district, so that there arc four possibilities for every dollar
you are gom^ to pay, that it £oes into the general county fund, general school
fund or for the betterment of the district, as your legislature may provide but
in any event it go&s for horns purposes. Twenty-five percent of the foes will ro
for the betterment of 'the district to 'be expended by the Department under our
present set-up. This two-bits on the dollar has bo-n rather over-shadowed by
the emergency .".program which has been going on in CCC camps. But as we go on
and believe we are climbing out of this depression a-ul we see less and less
reason for- this emergency measure, Congress indicate I every desire to turn back
this two-bits appropriation which is ,$oin£ to be of immense value in developing
and protecting these ^grazinc distracts, ' If it could be expended to include -the
lands not in the public dorr in within the districts, think of the possibilities.
You would, then have a full use not only of grazing districts which" couM bo
improved but the actual -addition of rented or rnirc]>a:.toc! properties
Whet becomes of tho other 25$ of the money, the act does not state, but it
is commonly supposes that that was to take care of i,he actual administration
of the act. I was questioned on that point by the /Ipprorriations Coiianitt'eQ. I
told them that as to fees the* stccJav.en had been assured that no foe' would be set
Until they had a full time to discuss it, but that it was generally supposed in
the Yfost that the ■ stockmen preferred to pay as they went and that they would
provide a method to take care of these expenses and ^et down to business basis- •
as soon as possible. That may or may not be advisable at this tine. There may
not be value enough received in these temporary licenses to take care of it.
But if it is the wishes of the stockmen to go on to a business and paying basis,
it will be necessary to adjust' fees on a 4- to 1 basis, fifty cents to go "to the'
local governments, or as indicated two-bits to go for improvement and the other
two-bits to take care of t/ne appropriation. : One advantage h'.s that it makes >
every one of the 15,000 users of the public domain watch the expenses. You
know the general tendency of all G^/arnraent expenses. The inevitable tendency
when not watched, and even when watched, they have a tendency to creep upward.
Go we immediately get the foelin;.; that the moro workable these units are hel'd ,
and the lower the expenses are kept, the better off ti.11 to the stockmen as
rrvards fees.
I will divide the topic of "grazing fees into two heads: First, should
there be any grazing fees or do you 7/ish to £0 on .another free year as we went
in the past?' Having had expressions on that matter, we will take up the
Question, and it; will be referred to the committees to report back here, as to
how much that fee should be. Now I am gbinj to ask speakers when they get up ■
if they will please give thuir name and State in order that the reporters may
get into the record what was said here, and I will ask for expressions of opinion
as to whether, with your knowledge, particularly your knowledge of your local-
district, you believe it is coing to be advisable to have any fees, or whether
you think it advisable to continue on a strictly gratuitous basis as wo are
today. V/e should not be afraid to talk with each other, as we have talked before.
MR. OLIVER LEE OF NEW MEXICO : May I surest that because there is a
number of livestock raisers present in this mooting that are not on the advisory
boards that they be asked especially to discuja this question at this time. I
feel that the members of tho advisory boards should hesitate at this time until
they are permitted to caucus and determine as a body just what their position
should bo.
MR. Ci^RPEMTER: Mr. Oliver Lee has taken the position that the advisory
boards would like to hear from those not on the advisory boards before they go
into their caucus. Is that correct? • .
MR. LEE: Correct.
MR. BPCCK OF WYOMING: Inasmuch as the credit of the stockrc.en is vital at
this time — I saw Mr. Stewart of the Farm Credit Administration here — I wonder
if wo could get an expression from him as to what o£fe«t temporary licenses would
have as against permits in the credit facilities of bha Government ', I think that
might be quite a -factor in answer inc; the question which you asked here before.
MR. GAREEN1JJ3R • I would be very -lad to hear from Mr. Stewart, but at this
time I would like him to take up the question os to whether nny fee is adviHnhln
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■MR. BROCK OF WTOftHW: My thought is just what effect he would consider
i- temporary; licenses in making loans. That would have some effect on the oliher
question.' I j
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-;-f y- MR. CARPENTER: We are not discussing whether we will have temporary |
licenses or not, but whether we will have a fee for them. Would you like 'to
'hear from1 Mr. Stewart on that, Mr. Brock? we are co ing to reach the matter of
'•■temporary' licenses or permits a little later on iii' the program. h
MR. Y7ING OF CALIFORNIA: Mo?. Chairman, the stockmen from Nevada and
California who are temporary licensees under the Taylor Grazing Act have hot
•caucused in reference to the following, hut have made these suggestions. They
offer them for your consideration, and although when they do caucus they may
.change their present stand on these matters. . '.
The licensees under, the Taylor Grazing .Act of California Districts No; -1
and No. 2; Nevada No. 1 and 2, are net in a position to pay fees for grazing at-
this time, unless:
1. In consultation with credit- agencies they will agree to allow the- '
'increased amount necessary in the stockmen's budgets. In this connection it
will necessitate consultation with individual stockmen and credit agencies
affected. ••-:•..,
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2. The livestock men who are licensees of California No. 1 and 2-, Nevada
No. 1 and 2, today are paying their full share and are largely supporting
school, county and State taxes.
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*■ The valuation of the deeded" lands' of these stockmen rives full considera-
tion to the public domain which said deeded land controls.
With local, State and Federal taxes increasing and with these deeded -lands
'^and personal property already paying an undue share of the tax burden for : the-
'support of schools, local State and Federal Governments additional costs of
livestock prod.uction at this time is unwarranted and" will v/ork an undue hardship
on the livestock industry.
3. Any business in employment of labor does not pay cash in advance for
"labor to he done. In other words, if additional benefits to the livestock.
industry are to accrue through the operation of the Taylor 'Grazing Act, such
' benefits should be paid for after it has been demonstrated that said benefits
actually do exist. The land was classified during the year of 19.35; the
protection of the individual stockmen's range from trespass thus assuring the
stockman of range protection and the actual making possible of additional feed
' has not yet materialized.
4. At the present time range rights have not been established. Federal
loan agencies today will not accept a license to graze on the public domain
(Taylor Grazing Districts) as collateral. If said Federal loan agencies aro
not willing to accept a grazing, license as collateral, it is clearly
'demonstrated that no additional benefit has been derived by the stockman and
;that the stockman's license' is not secure.
Until the determination of range rights, :md the issuance of long term
permits (licenses) to graze, the stockmen are not in a position to pay
additional costs of handling livestock on the grazing districts.
5. The water which makes possible the grazing of livestock on the grazing
districts is 99$ owned by the livestock men. The 'stockmen have developed said
water and invested heavily to make this water available. The feod without the
water is valueless. ■ The stockmen have paid out in the developing of the
water -- all the feel is worth.
It also should be considered in this connection that the wild life
inhabiting these grazing areas depends upon this pra.va.tely owned wator. The
stockmen do not charge the Government in its protection of wild life for the
use of this water*. The number of deer, antelope and other forms of wild life
would be much less if it were not for the water development carried on by the
stockmen.
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.'■.- Therefore, we the delegates representing California Grazing Districts "Wo. ■ 1
and 2, and Nevada Grazing Districts No, 1 and 2, ask that no grazing fees be
placed into effect ,for< a period of five years .commencing (with January 1, • 19£Q,
and that at the expiration of . said period if it oan then be Jshown that additional
benefits have accrued, ;that .there is stability, of range use; that Federal credit
agencies recognize, grazing, licenses as collateral ; and if. the stock-raising;
industry has the ability to.rpay. — that then grazing fees.be assessed on the
basis of the total animal months and feed units which said livestock graze within
said grazing districts in comparison with the animal and. .feed units which said
livestock graze in the national forests or on privately-owned" land* ,
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Further, that said grazing, fees shall be only the cost |of administration
of said grazing districts. .. ;■ :-.,-
, Whereas, the Taylor grazing act is one of the constructive pieces .of ;.
legislation ;passed by the New;,Deal for the purpose of the protection and , •
stabilization .of the livestock industry and the conservation of the range, and ■'
■ Whereas, the livestock, men of the public land States have made a !t .
tremendous effort to- maintain rt heir industry so that it will be an asset to, the
counties, States,, and Nation, and have only been able to do s,o with the aid, pf
the Federal Government. r.v--; > -• '■ j
Therefore, we now earnestly request that during the period of setting up of
grazing areas and in the determination of rights for use of the public lands in
connection with private ownership, prior, use, that no foe be charged for grazing
privileges and, . ^ •. ;
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,Be it further resolved, with the full understanding of. .the ( stockmen tha^
grazing fees will be rapproyedjby .them whqn they are in a financial position to
bear this additional burden. I '
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. MR* CARPENTER: Gentlemen, we arc off to a good start. , I thought-' we y/pre
ooming.to.it inevitably — that when we wore through the Federal Government, would
owe you something for running on the range. ( • . .,
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■ SENATOR CAUDLAND OF UTAH: Mr. Carponter • I should not object so much to
the grazing fee. I don't object so much to the grazing foo ;if I got some grass, -
but if I have .watering places on the .range and people .who go on the winter
range before I do and sweep all the feed away from around my watering places
I -don't think I should pay a grazing feo when I don't got any grass, and that to
me is more important than the question of the amount of fee or when I begin to
pay it. ;.• . _
MR. LUBKEN OF CALIFORNIA: Stockmen: Mr, Wing here gave you a statement as
to the; attitude of California No. 1. I wall havo to have it understood that I
am from California 1, from the Mojave section, and I believe I am the only one
here from down there. The sheepmen did not come.
My instructions wore that wo should pay for this range, that it was worth
it to us, and tho amount was 10 cents per head for cattle and. 277 cents for
sheep per month, or a dollar per year for cattle -the year round or . 25 cents for
sheep.
I could not vory well let that statoment of Mr. Wing go by without making
that statement. I pledged myself to the committee back in Bakersfiold that
that is where I would stand, as that was their sentiment and I would do all I
could to put it through on a pay;basis. Wo feel that wo. should pay for what we
got, and if wc got it we are. going to psy for it>^ It is a great deal like tho
Forost Scrvico in tho oarly days; when thoro was not any foo tho Eastern
roprcscntatiyos thought wo wore getting a big thing and made all the fuss
thoy could. That is tho reason wo are whoro we are today with tho Forest Service,
•I bolicvoit is worth 50 cents an aero on rented land liko wo havo to pay
in our country, and wo can got bottor grazingland on the public domain. I
bolievo 10 conts is all 0. K.-.- I am giving you the attitudo of my district. As
. to what tho balance of you want to do is all 0, K. with mo. ,
MR. NEILSON OF UTAH: I think wc havo proscntcd by those two gentlemen the •''
two extremes . ? .
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MR. STAAS OF UTAH: In. my district when we started to 'put in an assessment,
and I have to tell you that, when we .have: the money in our treasury — and we got
two riders --.we have got -wonderful district -and do protect every man. In every
dispute we send our riders and settle, and after we got orders from Interior
Department broke down the money,; we, are entirely up against it, i ■ r '
My friend spoke about, the work*. That, is the question. If we have got.
riders and can enforce, the law, and, can get. them to- respect the, lav;, that is'
going to-be wonderful law... / 1 .wonder how. we can control our district without
any way to enf or ce,>the law. i.n Without,, any means. {bo .enforce ijhe lav/ I am afraid
every one here ;- all of us »■ are going to be disappointed. If we later
increase thej assessment we are going to have wonderful system, protect every
man, especially the men who are liable to be overpowered by some of the people.
Therefore, I believe we are .going to have to .find some way to finance the act,
otherwise we. are going to be .disappointed.^ . ,. < ■ . ,.t
MR. WHINNERY OF COLORADO: Mr. Chairman-. Speaking not as a representative
of the grazing force, but as a ^representative cf the man at home who is running
this stock on the range,. I believe Jtfr. Chairman that the payment of the fee,
whatever may bejagreed upon as <Justrand right, at this tike 4, .should .be conditional
upon the dss'uing of the permits.' . <_ r , ,-■ • ,v. .
(Applause). ,
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MR. BACON OF IDAHO; I would like to indorse the statements made by Mr,
Wing, I don't think our people in, Idaho, want to ;pay any fee until we have
permits issued. We have not anything in .the wajr of rights that is of any
value whatever. We cannot, .borrow, any. money -on .it. When that permit is issued
I think Idaho ^would,- be willing, to, pay a foe. ,; >:v; '■w - ';vr, '; .-,.•<•;,
: - , ;>
MR. MCFARLANE OF UTAH: Gentlemen:- Utah has been in this thing a long
time. They perhaps have been in the front because their necessity has compelled
them tf be.. On account of .the shortage of range, we felt the pinch earlier
perhaps than any other State „ Arid while I believe --" jn fact when I was (in
Washington I told them that the cattlemen were willing to pay for what they,
got. But they want to get what they pay for -- that is what v/e have got to do
now. I just want to say this, that if we douj't take hold of this thing and
are willing to pay for what .we get, (we are not. going to get these lands. .. .
,•■. Wo have the Wild! Life asking for ten or fifteen million acres. We have the «
Park Service asking for fifteen cr twenty million; acres, and the Forest Service
asking to put more in, and if we don't totoahp/Ld of this thing now- and try to do
something, you are going to find that we_ will' not havo these lands to graze.
And I think it would be a mistake to, < try and /put it off for five years, because
we- would have nothing to supervise and regulate.
I can't tell you what I think is right-on the part of a fee. I think it
should be a sliding scale, but .let us be right about it — cooperate, cattle-
men and sheepmen work together and try and protect these ranges and have some-
thing worth while. There is no uso thinking you hove got something when you
have npt got it. So let's get. ..started and, get this thing built up.
MR WEBB OF ARIZONA: Mr. Chairman, Ladies and Gentlemen-. Two extremes
have been suggested. Extremes are rarely ever right or wise. I believe a
happ$- medium is the best. Mr v .Carpenter, I believe in Arizona, we hove been
lod " to believe by talks of yours that under the license period there would
probably be no fee. I think .-that. _ = is only fair and proper. I still think it
would, be wise, until the whole, program has been worked out and operating in all
its details, that there should not be a high foe. I should 'think there should
•be a reasonable amount. There have been reasonable ones suggested hero..
The State owns a large proportion of the lend, and every csittle and
shoepman in the State -« - practioally everyone has State landN"'l-oe,sed more or
less, and they are paying riot to exceed 40 cents a head a year on very much
better grazing land - the. best of the State .-., because the. first homosteader
or settlor took their choice of -all,, the best.- Then .the.. State came along and
they havo selected all of the very best, and we ai*e paying now not to exceed
40 cents, and sometimes muoh less than 40 cents. The public domain loft is not ,
nearly so dosirable, and Mr. Carpenter, for your benefit, there are soctions,
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many of them in the State of Arizona-, whore, the' livestock .owner should be paid
-.to bo permitted fo-koop thoir .cows grazing on them.. .,, . ' .• •, ;•
i ,' I think I -saw a lot of : land in the State, 'of Utah that; . I would not let ja cow
of mine graze on. I boliovo in your sincerity and your, desire to majco a,success
;of ; this Taylor- .Bill operation. -.; "Wo boliovo. it. .can, be, done*! Wo aro extremely
anxious that it: should bo .doneV-.-, One. roason wo are anxious; that "it should.be
done is that we think if . wo] .c'an^mako- a success, of, this and; -show that the dogroe
of local self-government that is. given us undo r this 'grazing distriob, that if
"possible it will have, an influence in getting" us a part in tho regulation on
the national forost. \
Now I think a happy medium between theso two: extreme sj..is ;right«. As soon
tas1 permits are issued, we shouldi bo- not only willing but anxious to pay a
reasonable foe, or whatovor ,f eo the/ industry can stand- .: ■, ,- . \ • .;• ;;
M.".-:^ . vi •.'•;'..= ... ., ■•:.*,v.).ot b*\$ > . ■ '*•••,.,.; ... :..;,r|i c. i • . i
,L , MR.. CECIL iOF OREGON:. I am from District 2 in Oregon. While wo didn't have ...
an opportunity to caucus moro than -'one of our precjivjts , it v/as tho opinion in
precinct.!,, District ;2y \that fivo cents 'per .month per cow and j one oont per head
per month for sheep nvould bo-la- fair- and' equitable foe as a startor. .
.:■■ Some of the gontl omen have said the importance of this whole thing Is not
so "much tho amount of the foe. It is what .v/o -get for our m°n°y when wo get
further alcng. But we all realize, in ordor to get started, wo have got to pay
a little as wo go, ..and whether, tho ; one cent.. and ; five oentSj is /exactly tho right
amount at this timo -as a starting .-proposition/'.-, it ought, not i?o wrock any- of us,
and. I think it fair and .reaSonabld.'s- ^Itimoots the^-approvalf-of ^tho people jiiir. \
District No. 2. "• i-< ;• i Kf-% nc-'fr^^i .«'• ."-';••: \ ■ i i!
MR. HYATT OF WYOMING: Wyoming'No. 1 fe'ols v/hile wo are under temporary
licenses wo should. not be chargod for somotliing we aro not getting. Wo arq under
■•• something like the gentleman from Ari-Jona. Sore cf our. area would coincide with
• somo of that he has crossed over coming up, and I wish to. -state that is the way
we -.feel - no charge at this, time..: .jr; ■ •. .
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- AIR. JOHNSON 'OF UTAH: For the first ti?ne the. Govornmont has really turned
to those governed, and it looks unfair to mo, and I believe that District 1
Advisory Board iwill bear me out in it, that we don't want,,;something for nothing;
.that inasmuch as the President and,..the Secretary havo of f erod, .us this oppor-
tunity to work with thorn in- a" solution of our own problems that we not ask them
to pay all the bills. I would like to assure you that in my. opinion unless we
• do this thing and do it right wo '-will be subjoot to bureaucratic rule -as wo h.ave
rhad in tho Forest Sorvico, and I am 'sure everyone, of -you have fought that all
••the way. It -took them 25 years, to do what .wo have • done in L7 months „ They have
not our good will now, and j want:. to assure.Mrv. Cavpofitor, riid. his superiors .
tthat^thoy have the good will of -a lot of us in 17 month's. We aro willing to pay
in our district I am sure. /
.- . MR. CARPENTER: .Mr* > Johnson >haScComo -back to: something you^have. hoard
•before. The man that pays the price calls the tune.
MR. WILSON OF WYOMING: I may bo out of ordor, but I want to ask whether
or not copies of this record jVdll.f.bp available, to. tho State Association. .
MR. CARPENTER: Cop ies.v of w thO rpocrd'will. bo -available to any interested
[party. It will bo a public document. . ■• •' ■-• ;• '.
MR.; WILSON OF WT0MING:,.>s'Then'WOj.canvSeouroi. copies -of it aftor it has been
I- mimeographed?; • ■ , .-• :.r V- «:,.■;.>■• --'•;■ -■.-.. r-y ii$-*p : ■;'. •.-•■• u? '< . , ■»'
.• •- ';':: ~ti'r; ;'V-. '•■:. ;?.■ *£* $%\& kr$*4\ ' •' i
MR. CARPENTER: .Yes. -.-: ,. .-...' >'M 1 v ;K-
MR. WILSON OF WYOMING: "'I;, am not in n" position to speak for Wyoming bocause
Wyoming has not yet caucused, vltf seems-, to (me; that wo have got the cart bofore
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A-14-
the horse. Wo have in many districts, one" in Wyoming, and in many others,
presented to the Department >fbr approval certain rules and "'regulations that-
are not bound up vdth "any other 'fees -or any othor policies, and until we have
some action, some approval of- -thos^o rules so the lecal advisory boards maV know •
the mcasuro of their control, 1 am inclined to believe that we aro not in! a
position to discuss foos. ^ Wyemirig wi'i.1 'have' to oaucus before they car •
discuss them, but I do "think 'wo should know 'something about the- ai?p -oval of
those rules for' range practice adopted by. the advisory boards, which wore1 to bo'-
approvod by the Department of the Intorior, some of which havo boon in
Washington for six months. ,.•••• ' w. •? « ,y
• *„-■ ;. , \-** --.:/-,.■. *.-, \,~-\ , ..;
MR. WILLIAMS OF UTAH: I want, to sta^o I never obtaindd the program until
lato last evening-. Not knowing- tho contents thereof, our advisorv boards' and
our constituents connocted in'-that district havo tfbvcr caucused and No. 3' ! *•>
Grazing District of Utah is not prepared to act along this subject. I would
liko to soo this, if possible, held over until a later date before we havo I to
go into a matt or of voting upon this issue.
m \}^\ .CARPENTER: BQf^o I' ro'co'gnizo the next speaker I wish to say this to
Mr. Williams, that it is simply brought up horo iri ordor that you may see' the '•
divergent national issues. ! Herotoforo you havo soon only your own district and^
your' own conditions. Now you •aro^vitnbs sing and looking on'- this grazing map
from Canada tc old Mississippi and hoar each £ art give their points of view. *
■'■'■' ' .) ''":- < SteA U & r "• •. - '" f- •> ". ■ ?! ■"-. ■■{•.
After this is discussed- in your <c6mmitto0: this evening!; ycu will take-up
tho matter so that It can -bo expressed- by-States tomorrow' olid if at that t-mo
you do not' fool you -can '■ rod cti a'^fa^r do'crsiohy thbh-a cbhfo^ehce'1 committee (Will
be appointed. • Thoro wi 11* bo": no prbss'urb- brought to,b6ar to: soo7 if thov can :cot
together on a resolution; ; .' .^ £*£ ■• : '»■ >u-v*;» ■■ . \. . -> " •-.- •• /"* :- • 1 ' :
MR STONE OP UTAH: I do not fool wo should be assessed at this time. Those
temporary permits are not wortlva -hoof' asl lo'olc at it* Tho stockmen foel that
they -are as bad or worse off than 'hhby word '"before the thing was inaugurated'.
They question bur rights and they havo made the country all oommon use territory.
We are Assessed', on the cattle,- and wc don't foel like wo should bo assessed until
it is' in working order. ! T- '' ■■'•'-'■ • • ■ '-■■■ ar,-
Maybe I don't sob it just fair,' but I have a ranch and" horo recently tho •
advisory board haVo soeii fit to hiro its own mombors as riaors. A sheepman is
the rider in our district, -and1 he just recently :;rdorod a herd of 'sheop to put
a camp -within a mile of my place, within a half mile of my fenco. I don't feel
like paying a foe until I know I havo got somothing to pay on, then I am '
perfectly willing to do my share. Five cents for cattle and one cent for shoop
would bo all right. I don't think it needs ts be five.' yoars from now. As soon
as tho land is classified and ' wo -know what wo havo got, I am perfectly willing
to" pay my share for -it. ""•:'•';•,■ i-'--
MR. CARPENTER: I wonder when ho says alicehso is not worth a "hoot" — I
wondor about those appeals,- - huhdrods of them, - they wore' doniod licenses, what
about their "hoots". "*•"?'' • '■■ "^•••- -••„:
' '• (Laughter) ■'■'■' • ••-•>• -
'MR'. WYATT OP COLORADO: I-am not speaking for tho advisory board on which I-
sit or tho delegation vdth Which I come, but as on-individual. While I am a
shoopman and holpod to hire a rango rider, wo hired a cattloman and ho is doine
fine. * .. • i<. -.:■ w t> ;. . &
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Washington hasn't mny jurisdiction over a rider. Tho advisory board can hire
him better than they can -in" Washington, or oven Salt Lake, or Colorado, as far as
that is concerned. Tho last few hours of boing around this hotel and listening
to various dolegatos from various- States;- tho ro' soems to' bo a feeling that tho
stockman wants to pay as! ho' -good. •- The livestock man hasnoycr asked for a subsidy
from tho Government. -lib has tried to pay his- dobts and obligations. As I hear
the talk I havo the -impression that the average livestock man wants to start
paying now. Perhaps not toomuoh> but ho wants' to inow whoro ho is coin/*;. Ho
■ "* ' » '■!;•: :ir-:..-/-: ■ i V -- .£.* m& . ■ ■■■■',
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A-15
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wants a permanent permit just as soon" as ho can haVe it:
Now tho Department may toll yoUj Mr. Chairman, and theso dologatos -- wo
foel you aro.ono of ..us of course. — that they are not proparcd to issue a
pormanont permit* How long should it take to got their affairs into shapo?
Thon a. man will- know where he is . going. Ho can go to his .bank or his financial
agency raid ho has an asset. >:I boliovo a happy medium, as tho Gontloman from
Wyoming statod, is tho best solution* Vie might got together where we would start
paying on a temporary basis; but hot for von/ long, and got on a pormonent basis
within tho next fow months, \ but -I for one would rathor bo ^on a pormanont basis
whero I know whore "I am going -'and can adjust .my finances and have something .to
show for the work which I havo done .through tho years, and I think a groat 'many
feel that way. . • ' V '{< • ■£' • : |J \
-V MR. MATHlS OF ARIZONA: I am not speaking for the board. Wo havo not
cauousod on this matter. I am just speaking my owtr individual viovrs on this.
Thoro is a temporary period now that wo havo licenses for; that I think wo
should pay for the administering on, but I don't think, until wo got somothing
:~ pormanont > 'that wo have a real asset that we can depend ■ on and of for as . .
collateral that wo should havo to pay anything into tho county or tho State.
Wo • aro already ;taxod until, tho Fodoral Govornmonb has had tp come in and
help us out of this condition,, but whllo operating undor this temporary poriod,
in which time wo hope to adjust" our claims and our rights, thoro is oxponso that
is necossary. Wo can't got by. Down in our part of the country wo have already
incurred bills that we do not know how to pay, We can't assoss, and to try to
got it by contribution — thoro aro only a fow, as in all other things that arc
financed by contribution, that would pay. So I think it would be. right and
proper that we bo assessed for. tho administering of the affairs in each district
and that only, until we havo a .permanent set-up. .Then after we got our permanent
sot-up I think wo can work with our .county officials" and ^tate -officials, land
adjust our tax so at will bo in proportion with every thinfe else. . But now to bo
assessed, for that purpose, oirfwohoDl purposes, it would' bo a double assessment
that tho livestock interest con not stand at this time a
■ MR. LEE OF IDAHO: In Idaho wo havo throe districts- One of thorn is
o-ganized and two of thorn havo not been organizod. Wo asked tho boys from the
districts that havo not boon organized to speak for themselves. Speaking for the
district that I. represent, No. 1, wo disoussed this informally and formally in
' several meetings^ and tried to oomo to some agreement o.bout what wo woald do about
this foe or assessment, whichever you would like to call it. Wo adopted certain
rulos that we asked, the Department to pasn- for our district. Among those things
we asked to do was to classify tho land and ajlso classify the people, tho
• applicants that should be Issued licenses,, arid wo agreed- at such time as they could
classify this land and soo about what. tho foe would bo worth on that, and also
classify the permittees and see* who >. was going to use this, land and who would bo
allowed to uso it. ; .-:••<- V;: . :< /■* .
That meant, of course,- it would bo 'sogrogatod, some part would be in permits.
Thoro might .be soma torritory in our district that would bo advisablo to run m
common although wo aro not able to agrco on how that should bo done. But until
such time as the land. was classified and,-;tho pormittocs. classified wo could not
agreo as to whoro wo could assoss oursolvos for administration because wo don t
have 'anything to administer. .It was probably at our organization that those
tentative feos originated. Wo.agroed aftor this was sot up that we might pay
one cent a head for snoop and, five cents' -.a. head for cattle as a starter that wo
woula have somothing to. go on. . ,We realizo.that there would have to bo some kind
.■ of policing in:tho district so .that: every follow, would get what ho paid for.
Wo roalizo that in Idaho that wo aro differently situated from the southorn
part of the United States* -I understand down thoro that those boys havo pormits,.
and thoy pay for it where .they, can-graze the stock. tho .yoar round. Up in our
territory, the immediate. .vicinity that I.reprcscnt, all of /the land that wo uso
all of our Stato,- about 75% of .it. belongs to-tho Government as forost. -The rest
of.it is in agricultural leased lands and privately- owned land.,.; Since the
Government allowed: a 640-acro -homostoad, a, groat- deal of it has passed into
tho hands of the oounty, and tho; public domain is vory small. Part of our
grazing sot-up, except' in one part of .the district, that is what wo call tho
south sido of Snake Rivor. Tho rost of tho, territory thoro is just a little
hold-over ground, in the springs of -the year until, tho people can got back on
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A-16
their own land or got on tho forost roscrvo. When that has boon olassificd and
tho follow looks for tho grass, ho will probably think we are orttitlod to a
little bonus for staying thoro tho length of timo that wo do.
I am not spoaking for our district now as to whothcr wo will mako the
assessment, but I boliovo tho consonsus of opinion from our part of the Stafco
v/ould bo.. that this assessment -should bo vory nominal until such time as wp, havo
a, pormit and know we aro going to got somo consideration for what wo pay jfor.
MR. MONTGOMERY OP MONTANA: I am not a member of a Taylor Grazing District
Advisory Board, I. tako.it you aro, asking for discussion from those who aro not.
In my work, botv/oon tho stock grazing associations, which havo. gone quite a long
ways in Montana, and :. tho Taylor -Grazing Act districts, I have found oxprossod ,
desires, on tho part of. tho stockmen of Montana to pay their way for whotovor
they got. , I have found this,' to my. host knowledge, that thero has boon no. , . #
MR, CARPENTER; . Mr., Montgomery, I tjpnk you k/o in viow District 1, in
Montana, whoro, in order to porfect tho stock organizations, no. licenses havo
boon issued. But. it. is my understanding that in other districts in Montana
licenses :have boon issued.. tho samo as othor districts in othor Statos — that
is tho temporary grazing privileges'. .,:. ,-,. "
MR. WOOD OF MONTANA: I was- listening to tho difforont onos in rogard to
fees, and I boliovo a largo .majority in our district will favor a foe, and that
seems vory reasonable - 1 and 6 - but not until wo havo somothing for it.
In our country tho land is chockor-boarded by railroad land, deodod land
and State land. Tho Government land, is in small tracts. I think practically ;
all of the pooplo thoror.will favor ,an allotment,;, and I,thinjc they will be glad
to pay the fee just as soon as the land can bo. classified. But I havo noticed
in tho advisory board »»..ir/canl-t vorywoll speak for* the board but lcnow of our
mombors of our advisory boards «— I just met , them at tho door as I came in —
and I am just spoaking for. myself ■*- but, what I havo J oar nod on tho board',; and
I am satisfied that the stockmen in our locality would bo perfectly satisfied
to pay a foe, but thoy ..want something for their money; thoy want some
protection. • — .. ■.■<....•.. v
We havo not any large tracts of Government land as they havo in other
localities, mostly 'deeded land and State land. I think tho only satisfaction
would bo to allot this land. So far in our country our advisory board has
agreed on everything that' has ccmo up, and thoro is no quostion botv/oon the two
interests, and I bolievo and approvo and v/ould like to see it on- a paying basis
as soon as wo can, get some protection, and' I. highly approvo of the plan that
the Secretary and Mr. Carpontor havo workod out, and if it can bo rcforrod to
the advisory board S' --. the ; men who havo been on the range for years — I have
been on the rango for almost 50 yoars and I .know.tho;. rango men will maybe work
that out bettor than, ,some smartor follow in Washington* We would like to soo
the land classified. . • ■• --. ■ ■--. ■
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MR, MITE OF UTAH: ■ I don't think that we aro so much c one o mod by tho feo
wo are going to pay as we arc about tho management of tho range. I have boon
running ,on tho desert, Utah and Nevada, dvor since 1934. I am also running on
tho dosort at tho prosont time, and I find that tho; Taylor Grazing Act has not
eliminated the hazards on tho. desort., Ono trouble wo aro having at the. present
timo wo aro over-stocked. Thoro is morp sheep and cattle on tho % rango today
than thoro over;1 has boon in tho history of tho country, I boliovo. That is
the caso in our district.
. • I think that as to foos it doponds on the locality in which wo are running.
Utah probably is difforont from othor Statos. Utah and Idaho and Nevada
probably aro very similar, butv/o.aro not,. so much concornod; if wo will get
value received in tho amount that wo pay, but I want to toll you. tho shoopmon
aro running; a big chanco when run on tho dosort. Thoy aro not assurod of food.
They aro subjoct to. hoavy snow falls at any timo -i- they aro worried con-
tinuously about that.— and.it is vory necessary that wo 'have supplementary
food that wo havo to- buy. Wo aro alroady taxed; to ., death. Wo are taxed now to
tho extent that we can not pay. them. Wo are,. taxed -mow,. more than wo v/ero
during good times, ond wo can't stand to pay vory much for tho grazing that
wo, aro rocoiving at tho present .time, and I think wo only should pay tho
ni*\rtUV»T. ■hV>n+: A c nnrtnoonwr +ta V> <■> \*A 1 n 4-ViX <ii»vn,
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MR. COX OF UTAH: I an not speaking for any advisory board, but I -viv, 'how*.
ever, speaking for the Southern Utah Livestock Association which represents 80
to 100 livostock-mon and over 150,000 sheep. Our association has resolved
against assessing any fee under tho liconso period, or until such tine as the
livestock industry can carry tho load, Vte fool, and wo have been led to' believe
and led to' understand by tho Department, that there would be no fees 'during tho
license period. Wc understand that this law was not a revenue moasuro but a
.moasuro to- rehabilitate tho rangos raid the livestock industry, and in the. lav;
it has directed tho Secretary of tho Interior, at his discretion, to rofund in
part or 'in whole any foes during certain emergencies, and certainly tho iive-
stdck industry was 'never in- more cf an emergency or a bad position' financially
than wo are today4 The only difforonoc is wo think some of us can see a littlo
daylight, ■ . \ • ;
' Thore is plonty of precedent why tho Government, why tho Department should
carry this load at this time. They have 'gono out -.. the Reclamation Department
just as an Example — and spent millions 'for dans to- reclaim a few hundred
thousand acres of land for irrigation purposes. Certainly they should spend
some money to rehabilitate the public lands. Further, they aro spending money
to rehabilitate and bolster up or subsidize, if you please, other business,
and wo .think wo aro ontitlod at this time to be rehabilitated. Wo aro back of
the law down that way a hundred percent', and we think it is good, and we are
back of the Department — but thoso are our sentiments regarding "tho foes.
MR. CARPENTER: Gentlemen, on account of tho time, I will havo to intorupt
this interesting discussion; but it is not ended. Let me summarizo it by say-
ing that it is very evident hero that we vail not 'be able [to take up tho 'subject
of foes and roach any reasonable' conclusions until wo have all of tho facts that
wo have 'to discuss, which moans policies, allotments and form permits/, and wo
come back to the discussion mado by Mr* Williams that it would bo unfair to try
to roach a solution on this until you have looked ovor the whole field, and for
this reason and bocauso it is two minutes to /twelve I am. aftor a fow statements
and "'one other important item of business, gep.g to adjourn this meeting, and
then wg yd 11 take it up whore we 'have loft off, but before" continuing the
subjoct we will -make a statement on policiesV range allotments and term permits,
and then if it is tho wi'shos of the conference we vrf.ll go into the matter of
.policies in order that by 7:30 tonight when wo meet by States you may have
covered the field entirely and be bettor able to fit the feo subjoct into other
matt or sv '' • ^■'"': ' ;*<v '-•*• ■' '■
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I am going to recognize Mr. Marshall from the floor.
MR. MARSHALL (Secretary of tho National Wool Growers): I ask recognition
for — I ask it as a friend of tho court — the chief difficulty of this foe
question is bocause we are' short en grass. We don't have anything like a
" working. idea at all as to how much money we are talking about. That is why I
ask this question before you adjourn so that these men in their various con-
ferences after lunch will know how much monoy you are' talking about *
I would like to : ask a few questions.. 'On page 4 of the program reference
■ is mado to paying all cost of administration and rclioving the Federal Treasury
of that burden*- Does' that refer to tho §41-2.000?
MR. CARPENTER: Yes. . - \.^
MR. MARSHALL: If you will give us tho information I ask now, I think I
can work out for your information how many cents por head per month wo will have
to assess ourselves,' We know tho Bill. Now. who is going to pay it? Under tho
licenses now in of foot, what is their equivalent and how much?
MR. CARPENTER: Thank you, Mr. Marshall, for getting down to "brass tacks"
on this. Roughly there aro six and one-half million snoop licensed. They were
licensed indefinitely for the year, most of thorn." As to how many months they
run of tho year, it will bo your guoss as well as .mine « probably somowhoro
between 3 and 7 months - different in different districts. Take an avorago if.y'
you will.
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''' ifhoro' arc onoand one-half million cattlo> ■ approximately, and tho numbor of
months thoy run will bo somowhat tho sano - longor in tho southorn States! and
shorter in tho nor thorn Statos. .
MR". MARSHALL: When you divide that into tho Bill, tho'rovwill bo .a rujlo'i shock
to the boys. ' I.boliovo you are going to makb some statement as to tho period?
MR. CARPENTER: In order that wo nay talk about tho sane thing, I suggest
that in tho figures you bring back this afternoon that you stato whether you
havo calculated on a five months basis or whatever you havo figurod in order that
- wo may not bo talking about different things.
It is evident that boforo wo got down to actual figures thore is going to
be some discussion. But a sound basis is tho full sotting forth of all the
facts. Wo will givo you tho exact figures on horses, goats, cattle and sheep
as soon as we come in this afternoon. -Vic -will then continuo foos for a short
time for discussion and go into policies in order that wo may fit one into tho
v other. !..,..• - ■
Nov/, gentlemen, boforo wo adjourn I am going to ask all of tho delegates,
both of local boards and Stato boards, that aro hore, to remain in their seats
until they havo filled out tho registration card, and that they hand the
registration card in either to a mombor of the Grazing Sorvice at the door or
at the tablo, in order that we may havo a list of tho delegates who are present.
Lot me remind you, all delegates will be roquostcd to bo in their seats by 1:30,
but that others will bo asked not to como into tho room until 2:00 in order that
the Statos may take parts of this room for their State to elect their Stai^e1
Chairman and got their preliminary acquaintance which 'will1 bo perfected 'this
evening at 7:30. At 2:00 o'clock, and that moans exactly 2:00, the conference
will bo rooponed. Tho delegates will talco thoir respoctive seats, and the
audience also, and this discussion will bo continuod,
'■'■ At 2:30 any desiring to attend on tho Roof Garden,, tho discussion of salo,
leaso, and exchange of lands, at which First Assistant Secretary Walters \ arid
Mr* Have 11 will bo present, may loavo this oonforenco and go to that, or they
can go direct to that at tho timo if thoy wish.
MR. METZ OP WYOMING: I wanted to call. your attention to the matter of .
Section 14 and 15. A groat many of tho men who wont to take part in tho meeting
hore want to also talco part 'in tho other. Practically everybody wants to take
part in both. Wo wanted to talco two minutos and ask if wo could not set that
timo somotimo in the afternoon right here in tho same meeting, at tho scone place,
with the samo officers, so we could bo at both mootings. I am very much
interested, and I know a groat many othors are, in this Section 14 and 15, and
also in the organization under your district. I respectfully ask for a revamp
in this schodulo.
MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Motz has suggestod that a largo numb or of those who
• aro interested in Sections 14 and 15, salo, leaso and exchange of lands, do not
wish to loavo this assembly to attend tho other mooting. I will. ask in gonoral
• whether that is -tho sontimont ,— ' that you do not wish those meetings to go on
at tho samo timo. Is it tho gonoral fooling that wo should not havo tho sale,
leaso and exchange moetings whilo this is going on? Let mo hoar by "aye".
AUDIENCE: Ayo
1
MR. CARPENTER: I will ask Mr. Waltors if it will suit his and Mr. Havoll's
convenience to open tho mooting on tho Roof Garden at 5:10. \
MR. CARPENTER: (After a short whispe rod discussion with Mr. Walters).
Mr. Walters suggosts that- that part of tho timo bb takon in tho assombly. Is
that your wishes?
SEVERAL VOICES: Make it' horO.
MR., CARPENTER: It is suggestod that instoad of having it in another room
that we attempt to finish discussion of policies at 4:30 and thon go into tho
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matter of sale, lease, and oxchango right in this room. How will that suit you?
(Applauso).
MR. CARPENTER: That will be the ordor of businoss and when tho .delegates
havo signed their cards and handed then in, the meeting will bo adjourned to
1:30 and 2:00 o'clock.
(Recoss for lunch at 12:15)»
Afternoon Session
January" " 1S^T"1936
(Meeting called to order by Diroctor F. R. Carpenter at 2:00 P. M. ) .
MR. CARPENTER: Gentlemen, it is exactly two o'clock. If you will resume
your places, the meeting vri.ll come to order. (Pause to permit audience to be-
come seated) .
Gentlemen, we have a pleasant surprise this afternoon in having with us by
chance Assistant Secretary Chapman, whom you all knew and who started the Taylor
ball rolling in the way wo hope to keep it rolling. Assistant Secretary Chapman.
MR. CHAPMAN: Every time I try to speak before one of the so things (referring
to "tjio microphone), I find my power rims longer than it does and it breaks off
on me. So I will got out hero away from it and talk right to you.
It has been about two years since wo stood in this roon with about five
members of the Taylor Act Committee that come out from Washington. I ronember
sitting hero that same day starting in as '-groon1' as some of you here this
morning on that same Act, end I can yet see that follotf from Wyoming sitting
over in the corner and asking those annoying quest: ens. I want to tell you ho
does not only ask them hero in these meetings, bub he ke ops coming to Washington
asking them. But anyway, after following me over eleven western States he
finally found that wo wore trying to work out this act for the benefit of the
people for whom it wa3 passed. I am sure that Mr. Wilson, to whom I an
referring, feels today we have made at least some degree of success in carrying
on tho oporation of the Taylor Act.
I did not como here to mako a speech. I dropped in a little late to this
meeting, and it makes mo feel a little like the boy on the first day of school.
He ran in kind of out of breath, kind of lato, and the teacher patted him and
said, "You aro a little late. Do you know your A-B-C's?" He said, "Hell no,
I just got hero." (Laughter). . . . Leave that off the rocord, lady,, please. if«
.Well, a lot of us just got horo whon it cones to the operation of this act,
and we are all trying to learn tho A-B-C's together and carrying on and working
for the interests of tho people in this country. I want you to know that I
appreciate the opportunity of stopping into say hello. I see many familiar
faces, especially of thoso who sat in this first conference here. YVhero is
Mr. Johnson from Arizona? I am sure ho has cither sold or bought tho Arizona
strip by this time. (Laughter).
You people havo an opportunity, I think, through this act to contribute
more toward the success of real conservation, I believe, -than through any
othor one single act that wo havo on tho statutes 3 and I believe you are
broad-minded onough and gonorous enough for the interest of tho American peoplo
that this act will be so handled that it will not bo o.io termed a selfish -
intorcst act; that it will be one for the interests of all the people. That
is all I want to say today, oxcopt to thank you for lotting mo come up for this
ono brief moment. Good-bye Mr. Carpontor. I will sue you in Colorado.
1
A- 20
MR. CARPENTER: Thank you Assistant Secretary Chapman. It is always a
pleasure to soo and hear you. (Applauso).
I have a couple messages I want to read at this convention, one from
Senator Thorns of Utah that he wished to havo read sending greetings to tho
stockmen of tho Utah conforonco:
"Through you I wish to sond greetings to our Utah stock graziers assomblcd
for conference with yourself, Mr. Chapman, and Mr. Carpenter.
"I am happy that you aro mooting. Tho need of the hour which I am suro wo
all havo is patience in working out the Government system for tho benefit of all.
Tho Government works best when it attempts to and succeeds in attaining harmony
among the people to be affected by its measures. I am glad Mr. Chapman is
going out and that Mr. Carpenter is going to be with you. You havo an oppor-
tunity for an exchange of thought from which much ;;ood may como.
"Knowing that Mr. Chapman is going out and having had Mr. Chapman cxpross
a dosiro that I might be there .too, I havo taken it upon myself to send
greetings to you, to Mr. Carpcntor and to the stock graziers.
"With bost wishes and> oomplimcnts of the Season, I am, Sincoroly yours,
Elbort D. Thomas."
I also havo a message from Congressman Taylor for whom the Bill was namod
and one of the sponsors, as follows:
"Kindly extend my cordial greetings to tho Vfostcm Stockmen. I heartily
join with all their frionds in wishing them a successful meeting. They have
the opportunity of making tho public domain grazing lav-r a great success and I
will gladly do everything poss?.ble to help thorn. Edward T. Taylor.''
MR. CARPENTER: Gentlemen, I am going to make a brief summary, and then a
statement about a matter that has not como into the talk on finances. Then I
believe you will agreo wi£h me that for tho present we had hotter leavo finances
alone and proceed to tho matter of policies with which it is interlaced, then
como back to it in order that wo may havo somewhat of a whole picture for the
State Committees to consider when you assemble tonight.
Tho matter of local assessments has not been mentioned ho ro; that was in
essence a service fee for \vhich you wero supposed to got back what you put in
for your further use and paymont. As you know, collection and disbursement of
those foes was stopped at my roquest, tho reason being the question of whether
or not theso funds wore Federal moneys, and whether, as Federal funds, thoy
should bo covered in tho Federal Treasury. If any of. you ever had any
experience with any monoy that anybody ever claimed should go into tho Fodoral
Treasury, you cortainly would not want to go any further rath it until an
authoritative voico said it was all right, because even though they may bo ovor-
crowdod at Ft. Leavenworth I am suro they would build extra rooms for
distinguished visitors. (Laughtor),
Tho opinion is in course of preparation, and Mr. Walters was assured ho could
have it before ho came out here, and he has now wirod to get it, and wo aro
hoping before this conference ends that a definite announcement can be made. No
propor view of finances can be taken until tho grazing fee and tho service fee,
if you wish to call tho assossmont that, can bo all taken up and considered
together. That is the reason I montion it horo in order that you nay havo, in
your deliberations and your study of this matter, theso facts. I would like to
ask if thore aro any questions on tho assessments before wo take up the matter of
policies?
MR. Y.TLLIAMS OF UTAH: ' V'o have just completed a caucus of District 3 Grazing
District of Utah, wherein .and under the aclvico of the administrators during the
board sessions of our board meetings, wo levied an assessment of one cent a head
on sheep raid five cents a head on cattle — that was for the year — for
administrative purposes for tho benefits of tho local organization to bo expended
■■ ■■ ■ i mm^m^mmmm
A-21
for tho purpose of the advisory board.
In our meeting hero today the graziers of District 3 have pone on record as
supporting this levy that has been mado, or this assessment. Vihilo wo have
approximately two-thirds cr a little better of tho assessment collected, wo find
it can not bo tied to tho license as v/as f'ivon us the improssion at the timo it
was made, I think, notwithstanding, they boliovo it is essential and we have
gone on record that they collect and continue to pay this assessment for
administrative purposes in the local boards for those bonefits. Wo make this
recommendation to you, Mr. Carpenter, and v/o hope it will meet "with your
approval.
MR. CARPENTER; Thank you, Mr. Williams. And I assure you that the wishes
of the local board in this respect have my hearty approval. However, I fool at
this time that the matter o'f finances .-raid foos, assessments and budgets - that
wo must exhaust every angle, and thcro are a number of possibilities in which
tho matter may bo finally sottled.
Just to give you one thought, tho Taylor Act was passed by mon who had in
view the Mi zpah- Pumpkin District in Montana. In tho Mi zp ah- Pumpkin District
in Montana — Mr. Nick Monto, tho State Range Conmifsioncr., is here, one of the
principal organizers of that district — thoy have rorao railroad, Stato, and
Government land; thoy organized into an association and entored into a coopera-
tive agreement with the Government and tool: over these lands, and their foe,
which I think runs $1.25 per yoar for cattle whereas it has boon averaging
about $1.50, includes the servico and tho grazing and everything in one fco.
It may be possible that with the development of this Act, you will prefer
to come under Section 9 of tho Act, which says that local State associations in
grazing districts can enter into cooperative agreements w/.th the Government.
In thoso districts where tho na.joi ?.£;>• of tho Irnds are nov. Federal lands, it ,v»
may be moro agrocablo and ooiworj.os.t to have -'-ho stock associations ontor into
a cooperative agreement. I mako this suggost\ on because thoro is before us in
the next few hours a number of divergent developments of '"-ho way this is going
to bo handled. Wo have started in a fairly s:m.v.;.o way, Y'fhero there is fifty,
sixty or ninety porcent of tho lands public lend wo nave, so to speak, been
following one pattorn only.
It must bo patent to you that in cases where there is much public domain
lands, tax default, county lands, etc., that the local associations arc going
to have to, by, partnership agreements or corporations, take over most of tho
lands. Furthormoro, that as allotments are made on the range, say between
cattle and shoep, that tho cattlo section is going to be interested in the rent
of the lands in tho cattlo section, and tho sheep section is going to be
interested in tho ront of tho lands in tho sheen section.
In some districts in Nevada where one or two individuals havo been carry-
ing heavy leases of checker-board land, those individuals should bo relieved
of that burden, and the association, if it is joint use, or ono section of the
association, if it is. cattlo or sheep, should take that over and prorato the
charge .
I do not wish to confuse tho issue we arc discussing by suggesting many
developments. It soems to mc very advisable that wc should' take just what wo
have, and, so to speak, squeeze all the juice out of it. Let us see what wo can
do with this pattern, bearing in mind that the Taylor Act lots us form local
associations and use the pattern wo have started as a stepping stono. Nov; with
that explanation of tho matter of fees, and in order that wo can fit in what we
have to the pattorn of the whole thing, I am goin- to launch the question of
policies, and the first matter on your sheet, which is od. Section 2, you will
notice is tho mattor of swapping Classes II and III under temporary licenses.
You will recollect, gentlemen, that at tho Denver mooting, when tho rules
and regulations under Soction 2 wore submittod to tho stockmen as thoy woro at
Salt Lake City, at Rono, and at Rifle, that your consont v/as given that Class I
licensees should bo thoso with commonsurate proporty and priority, dependent
commonsurato proporty and priority, that Class II, bocauso v/o were taking care
of tho industry as it existed and not as wc expected to have it got before the
Taylor Act under Soction 3 was put into effect, should bo those with priority
,. I
A-22
vdth adoquato commonsurato property, whoreas the third class, which was to bo
taken care of only whon Class II was taken care of in full, and Class I, of
course, was takon caro of in full, woro those people vdth commensurate property
and without priority. The so-called "boginnors", those peoplo who, fortunate
or unfortunato, havo not boon in tho livostock business. You will recollect that
at tho Denver mooting the foar was oxprossod that after those classes were nado
that they would bo loft that way forever. Tho promise was made, according to my
understanding, that after a year, after Class I had been detorninod , after wo
had gone through this great appraisomont of users, that wo would be in a
position to roverso Classes II and III, and after thoso vdth dependent
commensurato property and prior uso were takon care of that the next class that
would be admitted would bo those vdth dopondent commensurate property and with-
out priority, and until and if they wore taken caro of, thoso vdth priority but
vdth inadequate commensurato property would have to wait.
That is the first question that wo have bofero this conforonco. Are you
ready to go ahead and have tho now circular, ;vhioh v/r 11 supplant Circular No. 2,
name the clashes for temporary licenses to be Class 7.,. thoso vdth dopondent
commensurate property and prior use, Class II those vdth dependent commensurato
property without prior uso, Class ill those vdth prior uso without adequate
commensurate property? The question is now open.
MR. HENDRICKS OP NEVADA: Before you get any further along in this
discussion, I would liko to kind of find out how wo stand from the districts
that woro organized? You went out and cauglrc tho horses on the range and loft
us the horses vdth nothing to pull* Vflioro do wc stand in voting?
MR. CARPENTER: I wish to givo the conferenco Mr, Hondrick' s position- Ho
is boyond tho eighty million acre limitation in District 3 in Novada, and legally
ho' will bo recognized whenovor Congress expands tho acre-age so he can bo taken
in logally. There is a term in lav; tka'c appLiios in his case= Pie is a dc facto
dolcgato. Ho is hero because he is horu; ond if the Nevada Delegation choose to
let him voto, of course it is up bo ".;\:ic'l co ?ay. Every State vdll settle tho
qualifications of thoir own delogato.;. Ft. 11 that bo satisfactory to tho conven-
tion? Will that bo satisfactory to you, Mr« Hundxv gJlj ?
MR. HENDRICKS: I think so, Mr« Carpenter. I juct wanted to get my standing.
There are some very important quostions coming up hero. I am very much
interested in all of thorn — fees and regulations and priority, and all of that.
I didn't want to be talking out of turn.
MR. CARPENTER: By the way, Mr. Hendricks is Chairman of the Arizona State
Committoo. All the members of tho State Committee aro invited to tako part in
tho discussion as v/oll as intorestod stockmen whothcr thoy are delegates or not,'
so that tho meeting is free for all in that regard. In the matter of voting it
vdll be up to the Novada Committee.
MR. HENDRICKS: That is tho thing I want to get at. You might talk a long'
while, but when it comes to voting that is what counts. ,/■
MR. CARPENTER: I expect wo had better havo this settlod definitely. Do
you wish to havo each State dotorminc tho right to say who votes, or would you
rather havo it determined from the Chair or from tho convention? I vdll hear
a inotion in that regard.
MR. TERRITT OF MONTANA: I novo that each State bo allowed to sottlc tho
question as to who casts tho vote in each State.
MR. LIGGETT OF COLORADO: I second the motion.
MR. FRANCIS OF UTAH: I think that motion is a little unfair in this way,
that ono State might set up crodcnti'als which mi, -hi bo cliff oront from
another Stato and therefore givo adva?;itages or disadvantages, whatcvor tho caso
may be. Therefore, I novo that tho Chairman sot up the ore "'.ciitials " for the
delegatos hero.
MR. CARPENTER: The motion is out of order, l.'.r, Francis, bocauso thcro is
a motion before tho house. Howovor, wo vdll consider your romarks as an
argu-.ont against tho motion if wo may.
■■
A- 23
MR. FRANCIS: I would like to novo this as an amendment to the notion,
MR. THORNLEE OF UTAH: Second.
MR. CARPENTER: The amendmont is seconded. Any discussion upon the
oncndncnt?
MR. CIIRISTENSEN OF CALIFORNIA: From the information and instructions sent
out by the Department thoro were four representatives of each advisory board to
represent their rospoctivo advisory boards here. Representatives have boon duly
chosen by the advisory boards to represent the people in their district. I
really believe that any voting should bo hold by the representatives who were
delegated to appear at this convention in line with your previous instructions.
MR. CARPENTER: Any further discussion? Are you ready for the question?
The question is on the amendment to the motion, which was that the qualifica-
tion to vote should be rulod on by the Chair and not sottlod by tho States
separately.
VOICE: Vvho may vote on this question?
MR. CARPENTER: ' If it comes to a close vote, wo vail voto by voico, and
than if they call for a poll vote,. I will rule on that question when it comes
up. Those in favor of the motion signify by saying "ayo" Thoso opposed
signify by the sane sign .... The no's havo it.
Wo will now take up the original motion which you made, to the effect that
the representatives from each State should settle tho qua] if i cations as to who
should voto in tho State caucus. I wish t;o make this clear. V.hilc they can
vote in the Stato caucus, if the representatives- of chat Stato desire /to let them,
votes talcon in hero, in this meeting, -..t.'.].". be confined to the accroditod
delegates. This refers only to the cave .-: cy Sl.afes and net what occurs in this
room because we are already committed to acoro<1?utcd del)go.tos in this room.
The motion is carried that within tho Stnto cciuov..-sos r;b.o State representatives
can fix the qualifications to voto. Y-hon it comets here, only the State delegates
can vote.
MR. WILLIAMS OF UTAH: IVho aro going to bo considered as tho accredited
delegates to voto?
MR. CARPENTER: Tho actual delegates will be tho four representatives from
each of tho 34 grazing districts that are legally organized and only them. Aro
there any further quostions? . . , If not, wc come back to tho question of
whether you arc ready to swap Classes II and HI 3M tho order in which they
shall be taken caro of for temporary licenses in the year 1936.
MR. ANDERSON OF UTAH: Before wo go into discussion of that question, I
would like Mr. Carpenter to answer this: In determining this order of
proferenco, is that a mattor for this group to dotermino by our action or is
it one which must bo controlled by tho conditions already in the Taylor Grazing
Act?
MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Anderson asks whether any action of this committee could
or would havo any effect on placing these fOa&sos. My answer is this, that tho
license set-up is not a set-up under Section 3 of the Act at all, It is a
temporary set-up under the Secretary's power tc do any and all things to carry
out tho purpose and intent of the Act undor Section 2 of the Taylor Act, and
having such wide latitudo by those words ho has chosen to sot up a temporary
sot-up that doos not follow Section 3 of the Act, and in his discretion the
desiros of the stockmen will have a very groat effoct, so that it is true, Mr.
Anderson, that it is vital and very necessary that wo know your wishes, and if
your wishes are followed they will hove a controlling effect on tho circular
when it is put out. Do I inako that plain?
So you arc deciding something hero now which will bo quite a controlling
factor when tho thing is considered and put into the new circular, providing youf«
stay on a license basis for this year. Later on we aro coming into term pomi'ts,
so it is very necessary that wo know your wishes
r
A- 24
MR- CONWAY OF COLORADO: After li stoning to the gontlonon horo today and
the people have oxprossed thoir opinion that they arc desirous of going on a
permanent pemit basis, I foel like expressing nyself on this Class B and C,
and the fact that ovorybody has cxprosscd their opinion that they would like
to got on a solid foundation on the use of tho rango undor tho Taylor Act, I
would like to say that I an in favor at tho present tine of putting Class B
ahead of Class C on this classification. I feel like tho quicker wo nako this
change tho quickor wo aro going to get on a solid foundation. So I say, let's
got it going, change tho classification and get on a permit basis and stop this
argunont wo aro having hero today.
MR. MdlNTYRE OF COLORADO: Doesn't the gentleman ncan Class B instead of
Class C? '
MR. CARPENTER: Put pcoplo with dependent commensurate property without
prior use ahead of peoplo with prior use but no commons urate property, but
leave in tho first class those that have both conr.ionsurato property and p
uso.
nor
MR. WINDER OF COLORADO: Doos that nean that tho nan who has prior uso
should bo given tho opportunity to qualify before the nan who has no comnon-
suratc property with no prior use?
MR. CARPENTER: That is oxactly the question. As long as you koop tho
license systen going, you givo tho advantage to the nan with, tho prior uso and
tho dependent commensurate property, the idea being to give hin such period as
he needs to have in order for the prior users that wish to stay in tho business
to have their dependent property in tho right anount, so it will not nako any
difforenco about prior uso bocauso tho existing industry will have shaped
thonsolvos up until they have tho dependent commensurate properties that control
tho range, and then to go undor Section .3 of tho Taylor Act which will take care
of then.
In the neantine you havo cortain properties. My cstinato is — there is
a rather low percentage of the whole, but soiio properties -- every now and then
you hear of then — that havo not had any uso of tho rango, although totally
dependent on the rango, and they want to know how long they are going to have
to say out of this picture ?hoy wore told definitely that they could not get
a smell of it for tho year 1935, and for those that had even a shadow of it
would bo taken care of. Now we aro coning to 1936. Do you want 'to put peoplo
without .comnonsurato property that is adequate ahead of the people with
dependent commensurate property without prior uso, both of thon to start in
back of those that had both?
MR. TOBIN OF NEVADA: In passing on applications in District 2, in Nevada,
wo were told by representatives of the Grazing Department that those who
qualified as Class C applicants wore automatically rejected. If we nako this
reversal proposed in this circular,, what will becone of those people that are
in Class II now? Will they be automatically rejected?
MR. CARPENTER: In case the classes ar ; rovorsod, then Class I will be
takon care of in full, and if Class II is taken care of in full, Class III will
then be taken care of, but Class III will nob be taken care of until tho other
two classes aro takon care of first. There nay be range enough for all thrco
classes and there nay not. Practically all of you took care of Class I, and
quite a bit of II this yoar. Nearly all of you. went to Class II. You
practically all took caro of Class I, and you took caro of a lot of people that
were then on connensurato property. This is pushing then a little further down
tho "scale.
MR. YtfUNNERY OF COLORADO: I think you havo already partially answered the
first question I wanted to ask you, and that was, isn't that according to our
genoral rules adopted last spring that this position should be rovorsod when wo
cone to action next period?
A-25
MR. CARPENTER: It is my understanding that wo wore committed to rover so
those classes at Denver. However, I offor the question to this assembly.
MR. JOHNSON OF UTAH: I take it, gentlemen, that we are asked to decide
whether wo will perpetuate what has been known as the "transient man, the
travelling nan, or the dosort nan," in fact over and above the stoclomn who
has boon in the stock business and owns the ranches. It becomes a question
today whether through this license period we had not bettor go ahead and ta.ee
care of the follow that has tho stock. As I understand you, that will bo taken
caro of when wo go on a permit basis.
MR. CARPENTER: The question was to talco care of the follow with property
ahead of tho follow who had prior uso.
MR. JOHNSON OF UTAH: It seons to no at this time wo should take care of
the nan with the livestock, otherwise wo go on record as setting up a new group
of livestock-nen in the West who are not even financed or can not finance _
themselves to stock tho range and who leave tho dosort nan the nan with prior
use,without a hone. It soons to no it should go on as it is during tho license
period and let that third nan still sit in with his priority on the range.
I think I would bo disinclined to leave the stock without a homo as long as
it is as indefinite as it is now* I believe wo should take care of the stock
and we should serve longer notice then ono year on those non to liquidate, it
soons to ne that the present arrangement is most satisfactory.
MR. WEBB OF ARIZONA: I can't possibly, with tho wildest flight of fancy,
disengage the priority of right fron connonsurability. It seens to no that thoy
are so closely united that thoy nust bo considered.
Now I have, if I nay be permitted to digress, referenced a personal
natter. I know of a case in tho State Land Department in Arizona in the courts
for seven years and ultimately decided by a Supreme Court 3udge who .mow no more
about the real interests in the natter than 762,000 of these people hero. One
week after this decision was rendered, the contestant who got the decision ov.r
no cane around me and wanted §10,000 for the things he won in that court °"eof
seven years. I didn't buy hin foolishly out. I didn't think he would sell then
to anybody else, but he did, and he got less than {2,000 benefit of it and I
lost at least $20,000 in the transaction. Now I know entirely through the caso
that he was only contending for something with which lie could hold me up, 1
knew it, couldn't prove it. All right, he get away with it, and there you are.
' Now it is absolutely all wrong to consider for a moment that these .chi colors
that try to get in on tho legitimate users of the public domain wore handicapped.
Vie know darn well what they intend to do, but we can't prove it. Now it is all
wrong .
Now in a resolution in Graham County, the Gila.. Water Shed in Arizona - I
had the distinct honor of drawing the resolution — providing this:' That we ask
that a f razing district be created with this understanding ana with this
condition, that the Federal Government, with a representative there present,
understood that the State of Arizona was to have first consideration in the
selection and the exchange of public lands, or unless that privilege of our
resolution was recognized wo would not ask for inclusion in a district and
with that inclusion we asked for a creation of the GilaTTator Shed District with
the absolute understanding, with the representatives of the Government them
present, that the State was to have first right on tho exchange of land m order
' to consolidate the different districts of land. We arc still for that. V:e are
still against everything else, and wo want it distinctly understood that we are
first for Arizona, first for the State land control of Arizona, and then we are
for the Taylor Bill.
MR. CARPENTER: Thank you, Mr. Webb.
MR. WEBB: Now we want Arizona State lands all over the State of Arizona in
ono district, and when that is dene then we are for the Taylor Bill heart and soul
MR. CARPENTER: Thank you again. Now before I recognize Mr. Greer and
A-26
Mr. Lublcen of California -*- just a ninuto --,1 don't v/ant to get to talking about
two things, Arizona and Nov/ Mexico havo a situation that these men will
sincerely and honestly talk about that is just as different in the South and
the North as black f ron white. When you have a 12-mcnth range how can you do
anything but adjudicate as you go onto it? I havo heard of cases whore they
have had then fenced up for a number of years. Now that is not what thuso
gontlemon hero from Utah, Orogon, Utah, Wyoming and Colorado aro. talking about
at all. They aro living in an ontircly different country, so I v/ant to keep
this thing fron missing firo if I can. While wo aro not going to shut off any
delegates, I take it that tho natter of nomadic sheep, which they do not have
to take care of in certain localitios, is nevertheless an important one.
In the northern country prior use and commensurate properties havo boon
shown in many instances, and whothcr wo are going to rooognizo them or not is
the question boforo the house. That is the reason I wished to make those
remarks aftor what Mr. Webb said because I can see his point of view, and it
completely misses firo when you are considering tho situation up in othor States
in the north.
MR. GREER OF WYOMING: Do these permits follow tho land or the livestock?
MR CARPENTER: Onco and for all, the land and water.
(Applause).
MR* TAYLOR OF NEW MEXICO: In order to got this question boforo tho house,
I move that tho ardor of preferential or preference classes for licenses be as
follows :
1. Qualified applicants with dependent commensurate property with
prior uso. ;
2. Qualified applicants with dependent commensurate property but without
prior uso.
3. Qualified applicants who have prior use but not adoquate commensurate
property,
MR. CARPENTER: Tho motion is made that Classes II cmd III bo reversed,
that for tho year 1936 tho owner of dependent commensurate property with prior
use remain Class I, comnonsurate property without prior use Class II , and prior
use but not adequato commons urate property Class III.
MR. SHERMAN OF COLORADO: I second the motion.
MR. STAAS OF UTAH: I boliovo we are going to do grave injustice to a lot
of people in a lot of States. We get lot of sheep — lot of sheepmen who havo
not got a lot of proporty. Now if we do this and eliminate, I believe it is
going to be a great injustice to all taxpayers to strike out all those people
without prior use. By this movement you are going to ruin a lot of fanilios and
deprive a lot of old people and old womon. If you eliminate all those people'
then they vail be on the mercy of everyone.
I know a lot of people in my county who, if you climinato those people, God
knows how they are going to livo. Wo have got livestock-men and sheepmen who
have plenty commensurate proporty, how aro those people going to take care of
themselves? I believe it would bo a groat injustice if wo eliminate those
classes. The best way is to let thorn stay on until wo got out of tho depression.
I beg you don't vote for this because you are going to ruin a lot of good families
in the State of Utah.
MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Staas has raised the question as to what is going to
become of the people with stock but without tho property, I imagine there aro
some with tho property but without tho stock who wish to talk.
MR. ALLRED OF UTAH: I happon to bo a representative of tho section of tho
country that was formorly an Indian Reservation until 30 years ago. It has boen
w „««+ 4-n th~t country v/crc being grazod
settled since that tino, and the ranges ^^°0^0.^0°^0S^V,y , thousand
at tho tine this country was thrown open. ^ ^ ^ * sJ.p nnd cattle and a
people located on ranches oporatin^ in a ^ V^ ., ^ inpo?siblo to o
very snail percentage using «» '^J^V under these conditions. \.o
r ToL^Stin^or f iS tinrror0pasLr, of the Taylor Grasing Act, hoping
thai 5H!»SfS5» tho ranch undertakes.
,ow ^ ,e ha.o this undo* JJB -j - -«££, on J* ^fiT
s r0 as s£2 x-o 3/^ - v^^^rpSr .
in 1936 those toe would bo .rovo«od ana th Ian ^ ^ roeoGnltlon
ranch holding and -^^f^Jl^Lurato property, which is all we
aftor tho nan with priority wiu
expect you to do.
Ihis nan spoke of a .^-^^h^euld^o thrown^euW ^ncss
That is very true. That 'vail Tbo the case at ^ rf businoss ^ tho
denied the' range adjacent to ^ £££"• ^ only askirlG f 0r what we a6rocd en
ryr^hatCruld^S- second consideration. .
ones coning on. All in i-v it<
the resolution say "no . . . • iho
,• • s~„9 T ivish to state tho notion again. Tho
Do you wish to call for a division? I wish to c1qss j ^^
notion vis this, as nado by Mr. ^^J^"^^, that Class II be those
people with prior use and deP°»f£ °™S£ these 'vith priority without
question. ,
MR. TAYLOR OF HEW MEXICO: With the consent of ny second, I^ouM ico^
anond ny notion by adding three wer ^^n the Class IX ^ ^^ & ^
like for ny notion to road as follows. ^1111 u __ a smll
vdth dependent connonsurate property ^t without V£>* fo * _cnoral rulos
technicality that I think yo «*«^0I^°h^0 plaood in Class I the free user
and in the rules we have at tins tino wo na i should, in ny
end wo have placed these other cla so A, B, a nd C^ ^ ^ ^ .f ^
opinion, bo that it rovorso tho position 01
Chair so holds.
MR. CARPENTER: The free user was given a ^^^S^XSl^'
*o are net considering bin in our ^scussion. J»« soon^ ^ Jf
r;:^fi^uToua s: :£r.£ra£ i ^ «. **.!-. > -m «**
tho question again.
commensurate property - and by nan i h question up and vote
connonsurate property and prior us . *™f vil • for thc class I applicant
on then by classes. How nany are in favor of 1, L and v/ith prior-
those with dependent connonsurate pro porty °^r position signify by saying
use? Those in favor of paving h mxnth o Oq ^ ^ ^ ^^ ^
"aye" Thoso m favor of ^1;^> aL property but vdthout prior uso
qualified applicants v/ith dopondont connonsurate propoi y
signify by saying "ayo" . . • •
VOICE'- I think you should have included the anendnont stated by the nalcer
or the notion' Ho said "dependent property within the district .
s hit,, tau! or T didn't catch that. I
MR. CARPENTER: I bog your pardon, Mr. Taylor. I i .n ^^
can't at this tino accept that «££»* ^causo it is^o ^ ^ ^
another subject wo aro going to- take up. .vo wvv b
another heading.
■gr
A-28
TOICE! X would U,to a* you i^-td^a°t £*«££ BiU^la
Bill itsolf or by tho audioncc horo? It aoona
anstror this question.
Section 3, but as yet, undox- th c lioons ° «*£^ * tho ordor of preferred
Section. For that reason ttasaosonbly « ^ to this quostion under
classes under licenses. I an goinG to £fc and nOGativo votes under each
three heads, and I an q>U»6. *° £* ^ erred class taken care of before
head - these whe believe that the fi rot pr « dopondent connensurato
anybody else is consid ored should be those *g^ „
g^iff^sS :"."(- «**« ^os>- Tho "ayos have "•
Those in favor pf tnkin. care of the follo^c classes gj-^^' *
b,s been taken care of boforV ^ethor^sc Qualified but without priority --
dependent co^ensurate P^SV^°*£^'tt£^o «*« X in sr'ticficd C1nGnlfy
these in favor of takinG caro of hm first at tor ^ ^ Do
by saying "aye" .... Opposed the sane siGn
you vdsh a division?
AUDIENCE: No.
next •
suratc property goes?
„. of P-m, « u rsr -.0 - xr SK-sr"
connonsuratc property mil lot nin,
Biggs.
.. Bjof , „. *-«1--«rs23'<r£ -r;rr^ s"
at ono shot.
«. CENTER: Yes, if I understand what you noan by that, and I think 1 do.
He, the next question f 11 bo as stated on P^ -^^^^11^°
Those within or immediately contiGuous to a ^rict vni^ l ugod ^
situevtod.
.-< u + 4-v,«+ vr-ill f ' o to tho sheep licensees,
in order that you can see exactly what that will - to ^^ ^ ^
I have had prepared, and you will h* «. ye ur^ proGr t ,.,ould bG
each regional Grasicr has shorn ^^\H ^strict' and these that wore net
taken care of in or immediately 0°'W°U* \° ^ho question, end the analysis is
in or centicuous to a district. On paGo 2 is tho quos ^ ^
Exhibit "A", which is. third from *•*?■* ^ich a-r,ears to be suf ferine the nost
find out what would happen. The di strict *ich a o ^ ^ ^
is Arizona Me. 1, where only 36 of the snoop ii outside of th0
47,000 sheep, and 96 licenses with 145 000 shoop cm- ^ ^.^
district, but in case any of these £°~MTfS an ,naly^is of the strip
niGht bar the,,, y<V^*TsLo^l use ?0/fiv0 nonths will net only talc, care
^^^■STSlf -r?^ SSh but v^l leave a surplus ran£e.
•9
A-29
In othor words, vrith a restriction of season thoro nood bo no out in
numbers ovon to those who ere outside of the district. Arizona No. 1, California
No. 1, and Kovada No. 1„ if you vdll notice fron this sheet, arotho nam dis-
tricts prinarily interested in this problon. Honevor, everyone is norc or less
interested in it.
The question is whothor you arc ready to make a classification of the word
"dependency'', which vdll give it a restriction of the distance f rem the district.
ThoPconPlaint is nado, and justifiably, from sonc of the boards that thoy were
not ,-«i von sharp enough tools to mice a cutting machine on those districts. This
is suggesting giving you a Good sharp hatchet.
You vdll notice that if. you turn to the State of Now Mexico on Exhibit "A" .
that it does not concern a single licensee in the State of Now Mexico. So *t
does not concern those people. Outside of the "Strip" in Arizona, I venture to
say it vdll not concern any people in the State of Arizona. As to ^he districts
that are concerned, this is a very vital question. They need_ not be -°ttlod
vdth one rule for the United States. There nay be some ^tricts vash to u>
into that at this tine. After all, wo are dealmG with two sides, as Mr. Staas
said. Ho presented the views of the nan vrith livestock but no property. ,o
havo got to cut ono or the othor.
Vihat do you think about making a classification of dependent properties for
the yoar 1936?
MR. JONES OF OREGON: I believe the Class II nen, or Class B as you call
hin should got very favorable consideration. This nan has not got Proper
commensurate property, has had this trouble for the past five years just like ,
his neichbor in Class I. AssuninC that you havo a district and throw this Don
out of business, and your neichbor isn't ablo to replace hin on the range,
what is your Tax Collector going to do? Y.hat is the nan with the hay going to
do?
Our forefathers recognized priority. Our Oregon State laws recognized
oriority use. I don't sec where there is any justice in deviating fron ^thax
policy. In OroCon we have several good citizens that would be Class B. If those
nen are forced into the market, it neans it is going to affect the sheep people
cis a wholo. Every head of livestock forced into the narket establishes a now
low in livestock values.
MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Jones is a livestock-nan in OroEon, and he was troubled
with a cold year. Sono of you in the back didn't got it. I an just going to
sunnarizc. He called attention to the fact that the nen who did not have .he
connensurate property in many cases had had a hard tine for the last five years,
accumulated debts, heavy taxpayers, in nany cases purchasers of hay, in o^ner
words, he was helping the community, and Mr. Jones felt that a Greater consiacra-
tion should be shown hin.
MR. "WILSON OF WYOMING: I wantod to remark a while ago that you could not
see ny "perfect thirty-six", but I didn't raise ny voice. Aftor all, it seems
to ne that while you nako general regulations, if we are going to have this
economy, it is a question going to bo decided by each local advisory board.
We have an entirely different situation between the States on both questions
and as between districts within the States. I don't think it can be decided m
any other way.
MR. CARPENTER- I want to sav in explanation, Mr. Wilson suggests that this
hos to be decided district by district. I believe it should be, but I believe
this assenbly should crystalize opinion in the natter- It is fair to hin and
fair to the rest of you, and that is the reason wo ore discussing it. l«o vail
spend a few no re minutes on it.
MR. ORCUTT OF MONTANA: I an heartily in accord vdth hin. The question I
want to ask is how can it be arranged so that this question can bo decided by
the local advisory board? Havo you a suggestion how it can be arrcngcu so it
can bo docided?
A-30
MR. CARPENTER: I can soc that we can adopt an optional rule, .-- a rule that
each ^totcan adopt this yoar if they vdsh to, or loavo it alone, but xf thoy
care to do it, thoy can talco it.
MR. ANDERSON OF UTAH: 1 represent a larCo nunbor of v/ool &™*** £™*
Wond District 1 in Utah to winter. Hot enough winter range for the stock vo
^don ttJVw« range in Utah. Vto drifted into Nevada. They accepted us .
hod on the sun...or ran o thirtv or forty voarn used that vdntor range
node us wolcone, and wo havo tor tmrty or «v y ^ortainlv would
in connection vdth our connon ran* properties in Utah. Jo cert "nl^-ouic i
object to naking a different classification of our properties in re^rd our
winter range.
MR. HUGHES OF COLORADO: Vte have sonewhat the sane situation in Colorado.
V-o have to toke into consideration what the passing of *f° ^ J^^rd
both fron the standpoint of those who havo gone across the Colorado lino ana
those X are staying at hone within its lino. There are approximately
1 0 000 1; cone iron Colorado, or grazing in Colorado in -™. f ^^
connonsurate property located in Colorado on the sane water shed as the Utah
lard. They follow down that water shed and vanter graze m Utah. Mow iyou
-re not going te pewit that property in Colorado for grazing in Utah, you ».
aonit that those nen have a prior use of the range, «-t they have f equate
eormonsurate -roporty in sono districts raid necessarily .hey nust bo ^ivcn tneir
nrer°ta share of rralins rights in districts where their property is located
even though that neons a very serious cut in the graziers who are using and have
used in the past that land in Colorado.
You can't put those sheep off the ranGe. because they have both the °™"
surate property and prior use. what are you going to do in Colorado with the
136 000 head of sheep that, have been using vanter GrazmG in Utah Mo. 6 If we
h-ve rot to nake roon for then, the privilege of grazing on public domin is
Zt to be so smll that it will not be of value te anyone as I view it m the
districts where those 136,000 head of sheep graze.
It was adnitted to the stocknen that lines on the grazing :£■**«£ W°[°
was no authority to carry the district across the State lino*. In so la *£■>
lands of the United States of Anoriea are concerned, State lines are not rv.xonai.
I think you vail all agree on that.
There is only one fair way to view tho situation, and that is to take the
past as the criterion of .what wo should do in properties that are dependent or
not dependent, based on the past use that has been node of that prope rty and
if we violate that principle wo will find certain areas that vail oe in a sad
f x n so far as public grazing is concerned. I think we had better -lentil
a pemanent set-up is node. While wc are having the tenporary license until
;,e nave found exactly what the carrying capacity of. these ranges, are who can
be cut off and who is entitled to renain, we had better not rate new Great
innovations as has been nado in connection with tho public domain grazing area.
Tho nen fron Colorado went onto those grazing areas, grazing on the U.S.A.
They have nado their investnents in land, thoy havo their connonsurate property.
You have drawn arbitrary lines. On one side or the other side of this arbitrary
line vour rights are to bo governed accordingly. Until we are ready lor a
pemanent s t-up, ten yoar pernits as viewed by tho Act, we had hotter follow
as closely as we can past custon or usage and net put a nan out now and find a
few years fron now that ho was unjustly put out of the picture.
MR. -ALTERS OF WYOMING: It scons to ne the procedure hero being follow d
entirely disrupts what has gone before, because in our district wed rulec
thrt we allowed 600 licenses and tho people there are now grazing the range
~7
A-31
similar to what they have in the past.
IVc have no authority to onforco the rules that were promulgated by our
board, and wo find that in nany casos there have been flagrant abuses./ Vie have
prouui.gc.tod a rule which made it nocessary to make reductions in a herd over a
period of years* Nov/ wo aro adopting a different rule. V.:o have chanced the
priority by classes.
My quostion now is whothor it won't bo necessary in the face of that to go
back. My constituents will say that all is lost and must be gone over again.
The liconsos were predicated upon the rules then in existence. Nov: our rules
will be different, and the licenses will have a different basis entirely.
MR. CARPENTER: Mr.. Walters has raised the question that wo are adopting a
new set of rules to guide tho boards by In 1936 than in 1935. T.'e certainly aro.
There is no question but what wo are making changes in then, and I don't want
anybody hore to think we aro not, raid every resolution hore means thousands of
dollars to hundreds of people Tho point we can't get away fron is this: V.'o
started in to aim at a certain objective which the Taylor Act gavo us, that the
rights were to go with grazing land and water. It said nothing about prior
use.. That sinply could not have been put in without a tronendous liquidation
and bankruptcy.
In order to give the existing industry a tapering off period, a method to
got right and come under tho Taylor Act and have this dependent' commensurate
property, the license system was started and cut as nearly as possible to fit tho
industry as it was and not as it would have to be to conform to tho Taylor
Act. Now bit by bit wo are trying to change this picture so that when wo take
the final transition and go into term permits there will not have to be a great
wrench to do it.
Nov/, Mr. Walters, tho Taylor Act says that preferences — this is Section 3
of tho Act — proforcnecs for the issuance of grazing permits shall be given to
those within or near a district. For theyear 1935 we did not consider "near" in
any sense. Now we are bringing up tho quostion of whether you wish your
temporary liconsos granted in 1936 to continue disregarding tho word "near" or
whether you wish to take a little further step toward Section 3 of the Taylor
Act and term pormits and put -into a second class those who arc outside of the
district, not nocesso.rily to bar them but to put them in a class behind those /.
that were in a district or immediately contiguous thereto. I want you to
plainly see what you are doing if you do it. ■ '
A matter was brought up by a gentleman here that it might be left to the
district board. If that is the wishes of the conference, that recommendation
will be made to tho Secretary, but do you wish at this time to give the local
board an option of giving a first class to those within a district and taking
those without a district as a second class? Unless you take some action here
on that tho local board as regards this question will bo in tho same place in
1936 as in 1935. The question is whothor you wish to give tho local board a
chanco to mako a Class I and Class II, according to location of property.
MR •WALTERS" OF WYOMING: In explanation cf tho former statement, in our
district a great many who are going out, pursuant to a rule promulgated by us,
and arc acquiring expensive properties to run thoir holdings, they are of the
belief that tho rules now in effect are to be tho ones that aro heroafter going
to bo the basis of their permit. It is not fair to thorn to leave them assume
that they can go out and acquire properties and then find out wo are wrong.
They arc outside of the district in come cases.
MR. CARPENTER: That is a fair question because wo have got to deal fairly
with both sides on this.
MR. REDD OF UTAH: My good friend, Dan Hughes, raised tho question, with
which wc can agree ,.. who live in District 6, Utah. Ho raised the point that v/o
should follow past practice or customary use of tho range in determining our
— '
A-32
whatsoovor.
, «* « i «. «r * .r^USKU SUr S535 ?
western Colorado, you can see it ^ Lt-vcon four and fivo million acres of
ssxsr eve » b4r £°Lf s«s^k -1"-
that section depends entirely upon the l^ostock ^u^^ /rQU 100 'to 150
of it is off tho railroad, part of the towns off the railrc.a roi
miles.
V;o have boon discriminated affxtaet in tho mtter of aoquir^c *™h™nf°-
Our only asset is tho sn^or ranGo we no, ^0 The gon : cnan vh asl ^that .,0
follow tho syston of followinG past l^otioo .ivxnfc l^°^onoo ^ ^
have boon ablo to qualify because ol Ui«r « sl°°»°°' C°° - £ qualifications
their fams, for pernits .on notion* fc .rests £££«££ * bi£ ,,ay ,nd
thoy have been ^° J^^^ . °^ we could not qualify. V/o are citizens
^tno Z27XT. IXlhe syste. of past practice thoy have Got both a
sunncr ron^e and winter rango.
first consideration to that rango.
■ I novo you, therefore, that Clr.ss A, under the mjor Class A those who have
land or water within or contiCuous to the district, bo first satisfied.
VOICE: Second.
MR. MATHIS OF ARIZONA: Vrtiat do you mean by "near"?
MR. CARPENTER: Innodiately adjacent to.
MR- McINTYRE OF COLORADO: Sonetir.es a thousand niles in a circle during the
year was tomed contiCuous, others 50, others a hundred.
MR. CARPENTER: This definition will be the nearest definition of near-
ncarcr-ncare st .
MR. CLARK OF UTAH: Will you please define tho word "contiguous" before I
conaonce?
MR. CARPENTER: The word "contiguous" ni(:;ht not in all cases have to be
teuchinc, but it would be so innediately near that you would call it bho fringe
of tho district in the usual senso of the word fringe .
VOICE: Define "fringe".
\m C-PPFTITER- You aro roinr to have to use your cordon sense on that
Gontl^n Vie aro-noHeinc to «to a hard and fast line, and yo, ,cnow what 1
noan when I say the distriot and tho innodiatc fringe.
MR. COX OF UTAH: when tho boundary lines of ^eso various districts wore
sot up, it was arbitrarily done. Mow, if wo aro GomS to arbitrarily define tn„t
T
A-33
word "near by using the word "contiguous", by so doing wo vri.ll arbitrarily
bind the various boards to noko their arbitrary decisions fron an arbitrary
ba-is not a basis of fact or condition, v/heroas if wo tako tho construction of
the lav/ as is and use the word "within" or "near" tho district, it will lcavo
tho boards opon to dotcrnino each individual case upon tho facts pertaining to
that particular caso. Therefore, I on absolutoly against any such neasurc.
MR. LEE OF IDAHO: Idaho has not been taking any very active, part in this
discussion, but when you try to nakc rules that will govern ovor all of those
States I confoss wo have to keep our fingers crossed. ■ In Idaho wo had to tako
a great nany things into consideration, and we nadc our own rules up thoro
before wo started in to classify, and those applicants fell into, you night say,
two great classes. That was tho follow that had a year-round sot-up and was
able to tako care of — cither ho had spring and sunnor range and ho had a place
to go in the winter tine, he don't all tho tine raise hay but he had the rost
of tho year that he was able to take of than. I think wo took a foir-nonth' s
basis as the follow who was able to take care of that stock in that district
boforc ho was cvon able to qualify as a Class A nan.
I think you will nakc a nistako if you adopt rules hero without naking it
very clastic and givo a groat deal of consideration to tho advisory boards of
each immediate district. I know in our district there is nothing that you can
do horo that will conpol those boys to notify a nan that ho has got to get out
of business right away and put socio nan in businoss that docs not have tho
stock. If he has the dopondont property and has the stock, of course, he gets
sone consideration, but as I say wc found two great classes, and I think it will
use all the range that will cono undor the Class A non. I think when the
licenses arc classified wo will find out that practically every one of the users
in that district will bo Class A non. The rest of the people that havo no
Class A stock and that the Taylor Bill will autonatically put of businoss now.
I wish, while I on on ny foot, to havo an opportunity to ask you not to nakc
any arbitrary rules here that will go back and be incorp -rated in the regulations
that wc nust conply with when wo do got ready to ask for this torn pornit that
wo hope will cone at an early date.
MR. ORCUTT OF MONTANA: I want to ask what this gontlcnan has just said
fron Idaho. There is dynanitc in this point and it. should be passed very easy
or quickly. I '-spook to Mr. Walters through you. I suggested that the advisory
boards need powor. Right hero is the power you can give then under tho law. If
you koop on recognizing aroas as they go further away fron your district, tho
first thing you know you will bo cutting your uso of that area down because you
havo got so nany cattle you will be just overcising.
MR. CLYDE OF UTAH: ' I an vory nuch in favor of leaving this natter to the
rospoctivo boards. I fool that it is inpossiblo for us to legislate as a group
fo/ tho so various States to fit every condition. Mr. Redd just painted to you
a picture of tho situation which is in his locality, which is probably right,
I would lileo to paint for you a picture of our locality, or the district
I roprcscnt, District 2 in Utah. Most of our pcmitt.es, that is speaking of
shocp pemittoos, cone fron Utah County, Sanpete and ".Vasatch Countios.
The so non have spent, hundreds of thousands of dollars in getting a sot-up for
the livestock industry, lanbing grounds, sunnor rangos, forest pcrnits at a
distance fron tho desert. It nakes a conplctc unit for this nan with invost-
nont in another county to trail perhaps fifty to a hundred nilcs to a wintor
range. They havo also on that wintor rango built water holes and have acquired
property but not sufficient to qualify undor that now rule.
The situation is this, that those non, individuals, ranchers who arc- located
cnong the fringe of these districts, thoso farr.is perhaps located in Millard
County or Jowott, these people who have had wheat — wo do not wish to
discrininatc against then. They should cone in on an equal basis, but to give
then now tho opportunity to cone in and demand a right when they have had
nothing in tho livestock businoss only conr.ions urate property — they have had
no livestock, and to cone in and givo then the preference right ovor thoso non
back in anothor county who havo built up a sot-up, I fool would bo very unjust.
~r
A-34
In District 2, we had a ruling — p'crhaps wo were not well info mod — that
land within a district which was of the sane character, that is it was winter
range, was not considered as commons urate property, thoreforo I feel that now to
entirely turn ovor our rules and regulations it will throw District 2 into a
chaotic condition, load I feel -that wo should by all moans not wreck. the
outfits which have a complete sot-up and givo preforenco to the individual just
becauso ho happens to livo on the fringe of tho doscrt. It will- ultimately ro
to this extent, that it will be necessary for men who have lived in Wasatch and
San Pete Counties to go and purchase the license of individuals who have ranches
and no stock. It will throw those people into a speculative business. It will
allow them to go out and sell to thoso men who arc already sot up in the
business and have a full year-round sot-up * It will put them out of business
and give this man a chanco'to sell at a speculative value his right to acquire
this privilege Therefore, I think it would bo very advisable and wise to
leavo it according to tho district* Perhaps the rule would work in Mr. Pcdd's
district, but I believe it would work adversely to tho groator proportion of
tho stock in tho State of Utah.
MR. MILLER OF MONTANA: It seems to mo in thrashing out this question
nobody wants to do anything to beat any other livestock-men. Our intorosts
• arc varied, so varied that it is impossible to set up a rule which could be
applied to every section of those 10 States. Thorcforc, I would like to make
mention, if it is in order, that this natter of prior rights, prior use and
commensurability bo roforrcd to the various districts within the States, to the
boards of thoso districts »
MR. COX OF UTAH: I would like to say a few words regarding that. These
mon arc opposing Mr. Recto's motion, but I wonder if wo stop to consider the
percentage of the people that aro affected both pro &nc\ con. I think from the
statistics, in my opinion — of courso I haven't the facts — but in my opinion
oighty por cent of the licensees and users of tho public domain live within the
district and their properties arc within the district- and their livelihood •
depends upon tho use of this rango, and I can't sec why v/o should permit 20^
of the nooplo to control tho range that 80^ of the people uso. I can soc no
reason why big operators should be given a preference ovor small operators, and
I wish to make an amendment to Mr. Rcdd's motion that it read "dependent.
commensurate property within tho district".
MR. CARPENTERs A motion has boon made to amend Mr. Rodd's notion in which
dopondont commensurate proporty within the district would be given a prior
classification — within or immediately near the district would be given a
priority ovor properties outsido the district and in the fringe thereof.
MR. JONES OF UTAH: Second tho motion. . •
MR. CARPENTER: Tho motion has boon seconded raid now will be debated upon.
MR. GREENFIELD OF VfYOMING: Tho law says preferences shall be given in
tho issuance of grazing permits to those within or near a district* Land
owners engaged in tho livostock businoss aro owners of water or water rights.
Tho Act defines who are cntitlod to preferential rights.
MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Greenfield has raised the point that Section 3
scttlos this, and ho is correct. The point is whether you wish to adopt tho
point and use it in temporary licenses in 1956, when wo aro not oporating
under Soction 3. Do you want to take a stop that much closer to Section 3 at
this tine?
MR. WILLIAMS OF UTAH: I would like to ask Mr. Clyde as to which one of
theso ordors that ho voted upon when v/o changed tho classification. V/o have now
votod to put the man with commons urate property without prior use in Class B,
or in tho socond class, eliminating or placing tho nan that has prior use but
inadequate commensurate proporty in Class C. , I would like to have him answer
tho question, which one of thoso ho voted upon.
MR. CLYDE: I votod against as it was carried hero.
igr T
A-35
MR. WILLIAMS: I can soo in ny birdsoyc view of this some very treacherous
conditions that arc Going to cntor into the livestock industry. I on proud to
state hero for your interest, for your information, that I have voted against
the ncasuro that has passed horo, for the simple reason we have got a lot of
ncn, particularly in District 3, that in the past havo nado their livelihood
out of the livestock businoss. There is not the land available within that
district for sunmor ranges to bo owned. They havo their ranches down there,
and they havo nado their livelihood out of this livestock business. -We havo
the other class of non down thoro that hove nado their livelihood out of
spiling hay to the so ncn.
Now then, if you arc going to eliminate those non that have fostorcd the
livestock industry through all tho depressing tines wo have gone through, give
othor ncn a fair opportunity that has not accepted tho livestock industry in
the past, tell hin to cone in and take the place of the nan who has fostered
it, you are going to put this nan out of businoss, going to place this nan on
a snail or lovcl. I think you have done something dangorous. I think those
natters should be left up to tho advisory boards, that the advisory boards
should settle this question as to who tho r we arc going to decide "in or near
tho district".
(Applause).
I don't want to be a party that is going to help to injure the livostock
business. ,,
MR. JENSEN OF ARIZONA: I havo got a cold, but I will talk as loud as I , ,*'
can.
MR. CARPENTER: Kind of uso your hands, that will help.
(Laughter) .
MR. JENSEN: Southern Utah cattlemen, end also sheepmen, havo went to work
and used tho Arizona Strip for year-round grazing. Southern Utah has used the
Arizona Strip for grazing for 50 years, and they havo acquired, together with
tho Arizona citizens, logal rights thoro and havo used it for the year-round
grazing, and there are a few shocp herders that have done the very sario tiling.
As I understand it, thoro arc herds of sheep that have been in the habit
of drifting down there. They have gone in there over and above those citizens
that used it together with thoso citizens that havo g no in and developed it.
Thcro is one moro thing, in that Arizona Strip, I don't think there is one
dollars worth of property that is going to be applied upon any other grazing
district, and I say that that one district, that the comncnsurability within
that district should bo tho commons urability that is "Class A.
MR." CARPENTER: Gentlemen, at this tine I wish to nako a request — only
about a third of thoso registration cards wore turned in. Will those of you
that have your cards start passing them along until they come down to the
gentlemen in front, and thoy will hand then to Mr. Ryan, who will put then on
the desk. It is now a quarter to four* Wo havo talked sono on one of tho six
questions. Wo havo four questions that 'wo have net touched. Vfc are desirous
of torninating this noeting in tine for another meeting to consider .applica-
tions under Sections 14 and 15 of the Taylor Act. For that reason I on going
to ask you, with your consont, to propose this procedure that wo leave this
second topic horo, and with tho consent of the makers of tho notion that wo not
put it to a vote this afternoon, that all those natters should be slept on and
discussed in caucus, that when you havo discussed it in your more informal
groups, you State groups, this evening, and when they return here tomorrow
morning wo will take up the question again after we hear the report by States,
and then tho question will be debated at sono length again, and when the voto
cones on this floor the accredited delegates ' only will voto on tha" question
bocauso they represent tho, 34 districts.
Thcro is no getting around the fact that you are slowly and surely putting
tho nomadic men cut of business. Thoro is no use dodging that question.. All
wo arc debating is, how fast you want to do it and what rules you want to do uso
to do it. With your consent wo will co to the next topic, and this matter will
bo referred to the States to be conferrod on in their rooms this evening and
discussed tomorrow morning after you havo had a night's sloop on it, or as much
of the night as remains after your Stato caucus.
*
A-36
». JONES OF OREGON: I vendor if wo ecu!, have , copy of the ncasuro no,
before the houso in caucus?
rary liconscs.
m. mm of y.toming: it has boon ,y -J^^Jg^iSf thoBiU
MR. «>. Mr. Noblett raises tto J^^K&^S ^
January 1, 1934, should not bo .onsxdorod v Tho J . - ot ^ ^
should not bo considered until June 1, 19.5&. in.x -- t
is no restriction on date of acquisition.
MR. FEES OF MONTANA: Doesn't that also state "unless it has boon used in
connection with the livestock industry" ?
MR. CARPENTER: No. The law nokes no distinction as to whether the property
has or has not been usod.
Ml. ALTERS OF DOMING: You spook t^ir^ri/lst^lloe.'Vew'will
district licenses wore extended by order up until ..pril 1st,
this affect us in that district?
MR. CARPENTER: It will only affect the action that you ^o^fter tho^
». f BB OF ARIZONA: I have no brief for J^^^T^
a darn thine about sheep. I don t ^llC'c sufficiently fron the
t-di^efthef/^^e ^^^^0^ a darn thin, that they
don't pay for.
got toccthor. I believe they can,
MR. HEATON OF ARIZONA: In %^<*£%g ^^^^oT^*
th-t ell tho livestock had boon taken oil Uic ranLc ,^ - i
Certain percent? Suppose a person had ~™«^^t't^^^S off?
his livestock four or five nonths a year, Louie ho i^vc
MR. CARPENTER: Seasonal use does net ^^-^nter Season.
EfSo a ^r-fw^^o^errand the sense wo are usin, it hero would
not apply in your State.
MR. HEATON: Practically all ef the people 'in our district are Utah people.
They r.iicht donand seasonal grazing.
KR. CARPENTER: You arc in tho Strip?
V
A-37
MR. HEATON: Yes. Thoy night v/ant to mako the cattlo go off if tncy v/ont
off.
use
MR- CARPENTER: I got y°ur point. I take back what I said about seasonal y,
. Thcro suro is seasonal uso on the Strip. Any further ronarks?
MR. VilNDER. OF 1U IEX: It soons to no the advisory boards — in sone
districts thoy night havo to cut by lumbers ; in other districts thcy night have
to rcduco the crazing period. I don't think you could rake a hard and fast
rule to govern all districts.
MR. HEATON OF ARIZONA: Thrco-fcurths of the advisory board ncribors in
Arizona are Utah non. Now if thcy are united, thcy can say for all of the
cattle to leave the Strip in the stumor tine if tho sheep lcavo.
MR. CARPENTER: At this tine wo will not go any further into tho case
of Utah vs. Arizona. Wo arc going to stick to those topics. If no further
discussion, I will road tho fourth topic and nako a statonont about it. The
fourth topic is stated on page 3: "Should temporary allocations of rango bo
incorporated in all 1936 licenses"?
Now, gcntlcncn, v/o havo nado sufficient range examination to begin within
the next thirty days in sone allocations of ranges in ten districts of the
thirty-four. We bolievc, with due diligence; that by the first of October of
this year we can nake range allocations in every district in the United States
if thcy are desired.
A rango oxanination consists of an estimate of the carrying capacity of tho
rango in which wo expect to get advice cf tho longest residents and nost care-
ful users of tho rango and nako that cstimato based en the moisture. The only
other natter in tho rango examination necessary to havo is a correct statement
of the connensurato properties. Vfo spent all last year listing then up with
what we thought thoy ought to be. Wo have now checked a large number of those
in one district in oach Stato, and we can finish, -re believe, checking this
yoar and bo ready to make a range allotment on different principles in
difforont districts if you aro ready to havo it done.
The range allotment, I nay add, vail bo incorporated in your liconso in
this way. Mr. A is granted a license to run '100 head of cattle. The rango
allotment in his district consists of a sinple cattle and shcop lino. If that
is all tho rango allotment' nado in that district, he will be restricted to the
uso of the cattle side of tho line and denied tho right for any wilful trespass
over on the other side of tho lino. The sheep vail bo licensed on tho shoep
side of the line. If the allotnent has boon nade by comnunity or joint uso,
then a certain nunber of users will bo given a certain tenporary allotment that
will bo incorporated right on tho face of his liconsc.
General rules of the rango, promulgated by the Secretary, mice it a
trespass cad a violation, subjoct to criminal prosecution and a ()500 fine,
to go beyond the torns of your license.
It will not bo nocossary to make a special rule of the range to cover
the allotnent. You can have a tenporary allotnent of range nade ani
incorporated in tho districts. .If that is done naybes/.-.c of this "\;hat c.r~ V/o get-
"tin." for '-5ur.::oney" will be. answered. If yeu v/ant moro for your money, 'net
just a nero license — we had all we could Co just to list you up this last
year — and know whore you aro going or wanted to go, and wo dodged the
manner of range allotnent by using tho words "customary uso", which in tho
case of nany oporators included a use fron Honduras to Alaska, Y/o rocognizo
that v/o can't enforco that kind of uso; with a certainty you can if it is
definitely decidod.
Tako, for instanco, tho Mojavc District in California No. 1. V»"o drew a
cattle and shoep line. I asked one of the users how. that worked. Ho said it
was a wonderful lino and nobody paid any attention to it. That brings up tho
natter that thcro is no use putting anything into these licenses. It is not
going to be enforced.
1
V
A-3I
You gontlonon rocognizo that the Fodorai Government swings a littlo slower
and you do not got action as quickly as you would by going to a Justice of the
Pcaco. You also notico when it gets into action it gets a grip like a bulldog
and hangs on a littlo bit longer. \7o aro now going through a process of
rcforring the violations of license rules in the districts to the Division
of Investigations, Dopartmonfc of the Interior, and they aro now preparing a
large number of roports. In ono case they have recommended a prosecution, and
I hopo before this mooting is over that I will bo able to announce the first
criminal prosocution for violation of the rules of the Taylor Act.
Do not got the idoa into your head that was raised by Mr. Stone in our
Department , that we are just playing around and debating about soncthing. V.'o
aro going into soncthing which is the enactment of so much law which Congress
delegated to tho Socrotary of the Interior, and ho is willing to follow your
rccommondations in tho matt or.
So those temporary allotments, although they will be good only for tho
length of your 1936 licenses, will givo tho Department a dofinite somothing
to control, which will really give you some protection. One man said to mo,
"How can you toll mo to move out of this area without tolling mo I con go
to some other area"? Idon't know how to answer that, I don't know how to
get this range into any kind of fair regulation if wo can't mako some allot-
ments. I an very much against trying to go too far in this matter.
I bolicvo that in many districts drawing a cattle and shoop line is as far
as they will want to go in 1936. In How Mexico I am informed that 35 to 90%
of tho licensees have already agreed among themselves on individual allotments.
Where our studies are complotc enough, wo expect to begin the first of March
in the matter of making at loast a temporary allotmont, and as soon as that has
been tried, out this year to get down to tho matter of term permits. If wo aro
going to got down to tho matter of term permits and allotments of range, which
is tho realization of live stock-men, you, must begin moving in that direction.
You will ncvor got thoro if you don't start to go towards it.
Wo believe in a cautious method of approach. Thoso who know nothing about
your businoss would just as soon say, "Take tho Taylor Act and take her just
as she is right now," because they do not realize what would bo done to it. All
of this liconso business we are in you can't find the word "license" in tho
Act. It is all under Soction 2, giving tho Secretary of tho Interior, in his
wisdom, and I believe he showed great wisdom when ho named the tapering off
poriod from the existing situation, to do what tho Taylor Act provides in
Section 3. Ho didn't know how long that poriod should bo. It may bo only a
year in New Moxico. It may bo sovcral years in other placos. There aro
diffcront practices and different facts to substantiate. If you want range
allotmont s mado, our range examinations can bo complete enough to mako a
temporary allotment and take you ono step forward towards a term permit and
a pemanont allotment of range that is pormanont within tho poriod of your
term permit.
MR. BALLARD OF OREGON: Your statement of tho allotment of lands goes
far to satisfy us. It also goes far to satisfy us in rogard to the feed
proposition.
MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Ballard states that tho statement of range allotments
is satisfactory to his district and also is a satisfactory answer to the food
question.
MR. LEE OF NEU MEXICO : As to the position in Now Moxico on allotments,
wo of New Mexico ondorso tho allotment plan definitely, permanently, and
forever.
MR. MILLER OF MONTANA: I believe this question should bo left with the
States. It goes along with tho finance question which the States are to take
up at 7:30, and I believe tho mattor should bo loft to' tho States the sano
as tho finance question.
A-39
MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Miller, thorc is no question boforc the houso. Those
will be taken up in your State oaucus whore you will only cot your Stato -point
of view, but before you go into your State caucus wo would like to hear fron
the various States so that you nay understand the problon of all the States
concerned.
SENATOR CAUDLAND OF UTAH: I think the nest constructive novo you havo made
so far is one loolcinc toward immediate allotment of range. The sooner wo nakc
those allotments, tho sooner you arc coins to- begin .consorving the range. In
our State we nigrato across to winter range in tho fall and in the spring. Vfo
don't know whore wo aro going, vrc don't know how long we can stay. Whenever
you nako an allotnont and mice it pomancnt you have stabilized the sheep
industry. You havo saved tho sheep industry. The sooner you nakc the allot-
ments permanent, the better it will be
MR. MURDOCK OF UTAH; Mr. Caudland said the sooner you nako the allotments
the sooner you will stabilize the sheep industry, I would like to add, Mr.
Carpontor, that tho sooner you nako the allotments, tho soonor you will stabilizo
tho cattle industry too.
" ,MR. YiEBB OF ARIZONA: May I be permitted to raise one or two points? I
want "to say, Mr. Carpenter, that vrc in Arizona aro for innediatc operation of
the Taylor Bill in tho issuance of permits and the full operation of the
measure, but if you don't make good, God help you.
(Laughter) .
MR. CARPENTER: That sounds kind of like a throat to nc. (Laughter).
Any other States wish to express themselves?
MR. JORGENSON OF UTAH: Pertaining to this question of allotments, I see
that we have segregated in four classes a suggested basis for range allotment:
First, classes of livestock; second, season of use; third, community or joint
use; and fourth, individual use. That is the basis upon vhich wo are expected
to discuss this measure. The first question appeals to no as meaning, are you
able now to dote mine as betweon sheep and cattle what particular range they
aro entitled to.
I on of the opinion that' you arc not quite ready to determine that in tho
beginning. Keep in mind I said in the beginning- I favor allotments, but I
don't think we are ready to determine that question today. A thorough study of y,
tho rango has not yet boon made. You are not able to say just which range
should bo exclusive cattlo rango and which should be sheep rango.
As to season of use, I take it the Bill itself infers, tho Act passed by
Congress, that the present intent of the measure was that wo should make proper
use of the land in question, not only tho public land but tho ranch lands that
are to be used in connection with the public lands.
Let me call your attontion to the fact that here today you passed a resolu-
tion to the effect that you aro going to consider second in order thoso with
comensurato property for pernit right regardless of whether they got prior use
or not. If thoy have got ranch lands suitable for livestock purposes, although
they have never owned livestock in the past, they ore to be considered for a
permit. If Class A applicants arc taken care of — they may have all this land
leased — I take it to moan that practically all tho lands of Utah arc lands
that aro properly in line to bo considered in securing an application on tho
public domain to graze livestock, 1 think that I can -ay without fear of
contradiction that 90% of th* privately- owned lands in Utah could bo considered
as properly in lino for an application to graze livestock upon the public
domain. If we can grant that as a fact, then you. have a big problem to take
into consideration.
Most of tho ranchers have been compelled to feed their livestock upon their own
premises within their own corrals, but under tho Tuylvr Grazing Act as vrc aro
proceeding, apparently he is in lino to expect a pernit upon the public domain.
So I am questioning tho advisability of being ready o allotment permanent
permits at the present tine.
.
A-40
Now you have the question also as to seasonal use. ;.s I said a moment ago,
in ny estimation ono»of the prime purposes of the measure was proper land use.
In ny nine!, proper land use also ncans proper seasonal use. Just what season of
the year should it bo granted? Shall it bo granted in the spring or during the
summer or winter? Has sufficient study been made at this tine to deter: lino in
all cases what is the proper uso to be nade of certain areas? Until it hr.s , 1
thin): you are not roady to start out making allotments.
Then I note by tho program here we cone to connunity or joint use. I an
inclined to think, if we are going to make allotments, in the beginning it
better be community or joint uso. On most of these public domain areas we find
that we have to depend to a groat extent on moisture. It is mostly dosert area
I am inclined to believe. It night bo advisable in tho beginning to make joint
allotments, or community allotnonts. I think it would.
Pertaining to individual use, I have an idea it should be quite a Ion.-; tine
before we cone to that* Yet personally I believo I would, be satisfied if I had
an individual allotment. I an very doubtful that the advisory boards in tho-
ttifferont districts have nade sufficient study to tell then where to go, yet
they nay be classed as Class A grazing entitled to go to the district, entitled
to receive a permit for the district, but no one is able to tell them whore to
go because of insufficient study of the problem and not being taken into con-
sideration to the extent that it should be taken into consideration, as to just
the number of livestock it is expected to graze in any given area and how long.
Our Department of the Government is charged with the duty of bringing back
into proper oondition these public domain areas. I think a good part of our
livestock-men will concede that a lot of these areas have been overdone. V.rc
have killed out a lot of valuable forage that previously grew on it. I take it
that the biggest part of you will grant that this Department of Government is
charged with the restoration of those barren areas. I an very doubtful as -co
whether sufficient study has been made of the area. If you have sufficient
information in this connection, I want to say go ahead and nake your allotments,
but I would advise that they be community or group allotments in the beginning,
deperi -.ing on what information you have before you in making those allotments.
Mil. CARPENTER: Gentlemen, I want to nake a little explanation, l.e are
talking about tenporary allotments of range. In regard to our studies in this
matter, in some districts wo have a very good type cover for commons urate
property studies. 1-"e are not trying to make a complete finding that will a
hundred per cent perfect „ !7e are trying to bring the benefits of the Taylor
Act to the people who are entitled to it, I don't want to fool you members
of the advisory boards.' If this conference decided that temporary allotments
of some kind should be incorporated in any or all of the licenses' issued
during the year 1936, you have cut out a big job for yourselves. It is indeed
an arduous Job. It is not going to be easy,
MR. MATHIS OF ARIZONA: V.nen we started out, we followed the customary way
of grazing and use of the range. That is the thing that tho Taylor Bill is
trying to get away from. Vie elected boards of sheep and cattlemen who know the
country. Our board is ready to make these allotments. I think the Department
is ready to accept the recommendations of these advisory boards who have made
a study of it, have been raised in tho business, and know how the allotments
should be made at this time.
I think we should favor allotments for 193G. I think we are back of this
Taylor Bill one hundred per cent.
I.Il'J. GARDNER OF UTAH: As to range divisions, Mr. Jorgenson has intimated it
can't in a measure be done. It would bo foolish for the advisory boards to go
back and tell the fellows from their districts wo are going to divide this
range. On the other hand, if they come end. say we want a division of the range,
both sheep and cattle, if the division is outlined we know that there are
people who hc.ve more than enough commensurate property but they are vailing
u-ider the license period to be lenient. They will protect the cattlemen and
the cattlemen will protect the sheepmen. Ve are not forcing, it on them. They
are presenting it to us and are anxious to have this division made. They are
preparing for that, they are anxious for us to take a step as an advisory board''
to assort ourselves. They say, "Whatever you say we will stand behind you." , ./»
■-"'A
wWn%[
A-41
Vfe aro behind the the Taylor Bill in all that it means. T.'e are ready to
cooperate with those men. We don't have to go and tell then we are goin/:; to
make a division of the range. They aro making their own divisions. They ,
elect their committees and assemble, three sheepmen and three cattlemen, and
they will respect those lines until such time as the grass can be studied.,
MR. MURDOCK:OF UTAH: I have not heard much from ITo. 3, but I can say this,
if these gentlemen that. are on the advisory board in No. 3 are not able at the
present tine to go and set this ground off and allot, at least in community
allotments, they will never live long enough. I know men born and raised on the
desert in No. 3. I know that these men know whore they want to go, and they
know that transient herds have drove the common and little grazier out of
business. They lenow that.
Vie have got men 65 years of ago on the board. They know what has become
of southern and western Beaver County and western Millard County. They know
that interstate herds has drove those people to poverty. There is no question
about it. I have lived in Beaver County the bigger part of ny life, "'(hen, I
first went in there you could see herds of cattle on the domain. , Today we, have
got a poverty stricken county from- one end to the other. Why? Simply because
they were driven out with big travelling herds. I think we are ready for
the question.
KRi LUBKEN OP CALIFORNIA: I believe that that should be left up to the
various distriots of the States for the simple reason that I believe the
Mojavc District can arrange their whole set-up between the sheepmen and
cattlemen. We have practically got that settled right now and did it last
springe V.re had an agreement between ourselves that different sections were
allotted to different individuals. I don't mean that each individual had a
certain section, but possibly three or four would be permitted in one/ section
of the range.
It is true we overlapped, but I believe -the only way to get at this is
to leave it up to the districts themselves in each State. That is the only way
you can get to it.
- - (Applause)..
I am sure we have got our Mojavc District practically settled, and the only
ones that will discord with us are those that don't own a foot of land. Y.re can
start from thes.upper end of the district and go clean to the other end, and the
sar.e east and west, and I believe we are all ready to make our various allot-
ments, although I admit that there might be three or four permittees in each
allotment, I am in favor of the various districts talcing it up in themselves.
MR. YvHINITERY OF COLORADO: Speaking for District 3, I believe we are just
as ready now as we will ever be to take up the question of giving term permits —
those term permits for Class A should be for 10-year periods — and also to make
thc^e allotments. The big end of the allotments in District A, in my opinion,
will be community allotments, as the Chairman pretty well knows that section.
He knows that we have to use it colloctively.
The division of the range as between the two classes of the industry, the
cattle and sheep, is practically already made and agreed to. We have on our
board, if you please Mr. Carpenter, and you know that too, men who have had
years of experience in operation in our district, men who know the different
sections, in which they live, like a book. They have ridden over it for
years. I believe our board can conolude this work by November 1st of this
year in the permit and allotment section. We also can give temporary area
permits to the other class that aro entitled to that.
Mil. LUBKEN OF C/LIFOR'IA: I want to move that we put this matter up to the
sections of each State and let them make the decision.
MR. CARPENTER: We did not expect to vote on them. It is just a topic I
wanted to run over. You can" consider it further in your caucus this evening. ^
Mr. n.:hinnery touched on a matter. Before this meeting is turned over to the
Sections 14 and 15 meeting in 15 minutes, I want to jump sub-section 5 on pa^e ,,»
3, temporarily, and go doi/n to Section 6 and I will read it to you.
A-42
"If the issuance of temporary tern permits is to be on the basis of
dependent property without consideration of prior use, how soon is their
issuance advisable?" I can't let this assembly go into the State meeting
without calling attention to the fact 'chat there ig nothing mentioned in the
Taylor Act about prior use that I know of, that when term permits are issued
under Section 3 of tho Act they will go for the dependent commensurate property,
land and water, and all that we are doing is finding out how many steps we
want to take to get up to that point. That must be correctly understood. This
matter of a range allotment is' one step in that direction. This. matter of a
classification of dependent properties is another step in that direction.
The subject, just before this classifying commensurate properties, which I am
going into right away, is another step in that direction.
If you take all the steps a little at a time, when you come to the
transitional period to go into term permits, there wiTJ. be no great big jump for
anybody. Wo one realizes better than you do how fast the people are getting
their places ready to go into the division of the range. We should tell' thorn
whero to buy their properties, and we should tell them what properties are
going to carry - these. rights, and then in another year you will give
them a chance to get right and get it. I realize if you delayed this thing
fifty years there would still be people who would not be ready. I have got a
neighbor who is never ready to put in hay until after it rains. There is;
plenty of that goes on.
But this great body of men aro not going to wait until everybody is ready
because the great majority want the benefits as soon as they can get them
without any injustice to too many of us. So I want you in your State caucus —
although Mr, "l/hinnery is the only man who mentioned term permits — I want
you to consider that, when we are working toward term permits, we want to get
people now in the business, and there are plenty of them to use all the range.
If they can do that in two years, they have effected a wonderful adjustment
to a wonderful statute. It is that press for time that we are working for, to
give time to the existing industry to adjust to a law which cut counter to a
use of the range which existed for fifty years. '»
I am not going to ppen question 6 up to discussion, but you can see what
there is leaded into that section. I want now to go back to Section 5, and in
the next few minutes left to us, take up some of the matters contained in there.
Section 5 on page 3. "Should commensurate property be divided into classes and
definitely defined?" Nov/ why should we do that? To give the board something
to put their fingers on. The boards have had to wallow those applications
around in their mouth and did not know which way to go. Wouldn't 'you like to
have something more definite? It is very well to say, "Don't classify/, don't
define, don't be definite." That is the way to dodge, but the fair way is
always the hardest, and we might just as well face these questions and get all
we can in two days, to get all we can and definite rules to these boards
because they are going to work this coming year as they never did before.
If we can come out of the year 1956 with' anywhere near as fair a
division of tho range as they did the division of the licenses, they have
done a marvelous job. That is my excuse for asking your consideration of
the division of commensurate properties.
Please glance at your papers and notice that I have suggested that in
different districts certain properties should be marked as essential. A man
who has not at least one of them could never get in with the second class of
commensurate properties. It would look as though some cultivated feed would
be an essential commensurate property. There are some districts whero yoar-
countl* water is just as essential as feed.
lIn Arizona and New Mexico year-round water is just as essential as feed.
Water means as much to them as feed means to us. That- is the second class
of essential property. The third class is a new development suggested by the
Taylor Act, end I wish to say that one of the highest officials in the Forest
Sorvice, a man who has almost unlimited wisdom on ranges and 35 years
experience, said if he could go back over .his life and do something he had
left undone, he would make protected pasture commensurate property, because when
iL&ittnki
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that is done you are putting a premium on a man who saves his feed and protects
his range. If you care to make protected pasture an essential commensurate ,
property, you put a premium on it and you get men protecting their pasture and
building back their range, and you are coming back to the time when the western
livestock industry is prosperous instead of "hang on by the teeth industry".
I also suggested special facilities for the protection of the livestock.
I am not sure whether they should be essential. _ Possibly they should come
down in the other class. Vftien a man has qualified in the district with
either protected pasture, permanent water, or cultivated feed, if he has' cdme
in with one of them, then he can add out his set-up with pasture lands with 4
purchased fees and with temporary water.
I v/ant to know, and I hope you will consider in your State meetings
tonight: Is it advisable at this tjjae to sub-divide commensurate proporties?
Man after man has come to me and said, "iThy don't you tell me exactly what
it is I can buy and where to buy it?' You won't tell me. There is one
fellow gets the range because he has a haystack." We have done everything
to take Varo of these people. We have had a year to think about it.
If you want to classify this thing, it is going to bo necessary to get in
stop and go along. Look those over — they are only suggestions — and whon
you come back tomorrow we are going to call for a report from each State and
v/e are going to ask the opinion of the States on the division of dependent
properties by miles. We are going to ask for the division of commensurate
properties^ ... We are going to ask their stand on allotments of
range. Then v/e are going to ask them as to the matters of fees. Those four
great topics will have to be covered tomorrow morning.
I j *
After tho State reports are received, after genoral debate is over,, then
we are going to vote — if there rs" a call for division, and these accredited
delegates will vote and they will vote per man right straight through, and the
vote will be recordod. The morning session will be devoted to that.
Tomorrow afternoon we will go to the two last topics, vhich are organization
and improvement. Wo are asking a number of the district advisors on the matter
of improvement. .No talk over five minutes. \.e will take up the matter of further
organization, we will take up the matter of improvement, ojid there will be
selected speakers, and v/e will try and finish our afternoon session.
At this time I will ask all cf those who have not; passed their cards in,tpvdo
so
I am going to ask if Mr. Jewett of the Biological Survey is here, if he
will please meet with the Oregon committee, wherever their headquarters may be,
as they have a game refuge problem to take up with him.
c Now I am going to ask where the State committees want to caucus. (At this
point announcements were made by the chairmen of each, State committee as to
place and time of caucus). ,
(The meeting adjourned at 4:30 P. I«I. , to resume the following morning.)-
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DISTRICT ADVISORS' CONVENTION
Salt Lako City, Utah
January 13 and 14, 1936
SECOND DAY L
y»
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Morning Session
(Meeting called to order by Director F. R. Carpenter, at 9:20 A.M. , , Jen uary
14, 1935, in the Lafayette Ballroom, Hotel Utah, Salt Lake City, Utah.)
i
MR. CARPENTER: It is twenty minutes beyond the time that was stated on the
program to open, but on account of our delay in opening yesterday, there, has been
some confusion. I realize that many of you were up late last night and this may
be a fairly early hour.
This conference if successful, is going to be repeated. It is going to be
successful if we get something out of it that moves us along a little on the
road. If it just leaves us,- when we leave, where we came in, it is not going to
be successful.
We have had this meeting open to rather freo debate. All comers/have been
invited to express themselves. The advisors have had the benefit of very many
and divergent points of view. We caucused last night by states, and I thought it
would be fair to have in full before all the - delegates the resolutions of the ten
states. For that reason, I will begin alphabetically and call on the state
chairmen to give the resolutions of their states. When we are thru we will take
up a discussion of the matter, I am going to ask each state chairman to get up
on the platform end use the "mike".'
(Short recess while the microphono is being connected.)
Gentlemen, I notice the "mike" is working, and I am going to ask the speak-
ers to como up in back of the "mike" in order that you can all hear them. Before
calling for the report of the state chairmen, I will ask Mr. Territt to come for-
ward. Mr. Territt is the man who has been selected as the new Assistant Director
of Grazing. s.
o MR. JULIAN TERRITT; Thank you, Mi*. Carpenter, Mr. Secretary, friends, and
members of tho livestock fraternity: I am very happy to stand here this morning
in this position. Any pleasure that I ir.ay feel by reason of that fact does not
render me insensible to the' responsibilities which I am assuming. In performing'
my duties, it shall be my aim to be guided by the grazing law and the purposes
set forth in the grazing law, as outlined in the preamble of the Taylor Grazing
Act< I have always been greatly interested in the administration of the public
domain. When I was a child, my mother used to take me out to graze, and I have
always been, over since, greatly interested in the preservation and protection of
an adequate grass supply.
I might say that, if it had not been for a slip on the part of an eminent
United States senator, who is now gone, Mir. Byron Wilson of Wyoming and I might
have been the fathers of a good share of the Taylor Grazing Act, In order to
keep from placing Mir, Wilson in bad with his good friends from Wyoming, I hasten
to say that I refer to that part of the Taylor Grazing Act which has to do with
sale of isolated tracts and leasing.
I am remindod of the story of the man from Johnstown. You all have heard 'of
the Johnstown flood in Pennsylvania. One of the men drowned in that flood, whpn
he got up to Heaven, he was so impressed with tho vastnoss of the flood that',
whenover he oould get an audience together, he would climb up on one of 'the golden
lamp-posts and begin to tell them about the flood. One day, he had a big crowd
around him and proceeded to tell them about the Johnstown flood, when an old man
with whiskers almost to the floor came up. and looked at him and said, "Get down
from there and let me get up there." This man from Johnstown said, 1fWho arc
you?" The old man said, "I'm Noah."
I 9 ; I tl. — : MMuM %
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(Laughter. )
I don't want you to feel that I have the attitude of the roan from Johnstown,
neithor that I feel that I am a Noah, but, by strict attention to work, study,
and with your assistance, I hope to be able to accomplish something for the com-
mon good, circumscribed only by the limits of tho law, fairness to the citizen-
ship of tho country at large, and that utmost loyalty which common deeoncy de-
mands that I rendor to the Secretary and my chief, Mr. Carpenter, I shall always
lend a sympathetic ear to the problems of tho stockman.
I can say this because I was born and raised a stockman, and I think that
the people in tho west have more interest in the administration of this Act than
all the rest of tho country put together. I like to feel that there, is a certain
faith which is kept by all true stockmen. If, when I am called upoa to give an
accounting of my stewardship, I can truly say I have kept the faith, then and
only then shall I feel that I have succeeded in some reasonable degree.
(Applause. )
MR. CARPENTER: At "this time, we will call for the report of the state com-
mittees, beginning with Arizona. I will ask tho chairman to stop up to tho plat-
form, if he will, take his position back of the "mike" and deliver it there.
MR. MATHIS FROM ARIZONA: I think, after my introduction to this audienoo by
Mr, Carpenter yesterday, you will decide that I am not an orator. Ho introduced
me as a "wild rider."
MR. CARPENTER: . Well, ho swings a pretty easy rope, I'll say that for him.
MR. MATHIS: I didn't have my wits about me quick enough'to say that' he is
the only man I know that I have not competod with in this yet.
I expected this to be conducted a little differently than the way we have
started, so I have not prepared anything very formal here in tho way of introduc-
ing resolutions. We have just gone down the list of questions and have made a
notation opposite each one, and I am trusting to my memory to explain the atti-
tude of the Board on each of these questions. We discussed some yesterday as to
the meaning of "contiguous". We decided in our meeting that we would define con-
tiguous in our 'district -- I would like to say, however, before I go on further,
that all of tho delegates from the state Of Arizona met with us and participated
in our deliberations, gave us their ideas, which were very fine and good, but the
No. 1 distriot, which constitutes the Arizona Strip on this side of the River, is
the only district that has so far been created in Arizona, so in our votes we
only represent the Strip. '
i •
The question, "Should cuts within a class be made on the numbers of live-
stock Or by restriction of the season of use"? We decided this question could
only be handled right and proper by the Advisory Boards, and it should be elastic
enough that wo could handle each individual case as tho conditions would call
for.
"Should temporary allocations bo incorporated in all 1936 licenses?" To
this we ansv/erod yes. Wo expect thore will be some argument against this but we
deoided this thing may as well be decided now. We may make some mistakes, may
have to retrace, but the thing may as well be started. The Advisory Boards will
change from time to time in personnel, and I think tho Boards that have studied
this for the past year are about as well prepared now as they will be later on.
"Should commensurate property be divided' into classes and definitely de-
fined?" Definitely defined, this division being contingent upon the range manage-
ment praoticb obtaining" in localities. This is also a study for tho advisory
boards to recommend to the Department, I have seen times when I could not read
my. own writing, and I didn't think I would have to do it so much today.
"If the issuanco of preferential term permits under Section 3 of the Taylor
is to be on tho basis of dopen dont commensurate property without considora-
Act
tion of prior use, how soon is their issuance advisable?" We recommend that wo
sy
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do not issuo thoso licenses and permits before 1937, giving us another year in
.which to work this out,
"The need of special rules for fair range practice, and tho enforcement of '
all rules and regulations." Wo favor special rules and regulations, and wo re-
commend that they be enforced. These rules and recommendations should bb worked
out by the advisory board. I will say for District 1 of Arizona; we have worked
out some rulos and regulations, -., ' i
"Should any fee be paid for temporary licenses?" We feel we want to pay for
all we get. We want to help pay the expense- of getting this into working shape.
We realize that, for a period, wo wonTt get much benefit out of this, but the ex-
pense will have to be mot. We favor paying of licenses as sot out and recommended
by tho Department, but we want to go on record as asking Congress to emend this
law that wo will only be assessed for tho operating of this Taylor Bill in our
district. We feel that wo are taxed now to all tho livestook industry can stand
and, when this is set up, wo expect to be assessed only for the operating ex-
penses, I
MR. VICTOR CKRISTEKSEIT OF CALIFORNIA: Ladies and gentlemen: Our committee
Worked quite late in the night to try to arrive at what was best for California.
We did not agree unanimously on all of the things wo aro offering here today, for
the reason that, in our two districts in California, there is as great a differ-
ence in uses and customs as there is possibly in any state in the union.
We have District 1 in California, where the use is on a desert set-up, a
desert condition. Our District 2 in northeastern California, tho range use in
most cases is attached to ranch property near or adjacent to public lands ■. So,
though our recommendations were not always unanimous, we did attempt te make re-
commendations for tho best interests of the people who represent both districts.
First, as to the question of fcosj California representatives approve of a
reasonable fee when the districts are ready for term permits. Tho Modoc-Lassen
district. District No. 2 in California, still being in the process of determina-
tion of rights, asked that there be no foes for that district for 1936. Distri^b
No. 1 of California approvod a fee of one cent per month on sheep and five cents
per month on catble, whenever term permits aro issued and protection furnished.
Also, we wero unanimous in endeavoring to carry on an activity whereby tho
Taylor Act could be amended so the charge for fees would be that which was neces-
sary for the administration of the Taylor Act only and not have it as a tax-
collecting agoncy.
As to changing the order of preferential classes for licenses: California
representatives approve the plan of order as outlined by the Department for 1936
and approved by the grazing assembly January 15, 1936. As to dividing depen-
dent properties into two classes, as follows: (a) Those within or contiguous
to a district. '. California representatives asked to leave the word contigu-
ous out and include or replace by the word "near". (b) Other properties that
have been or oan be used in connection with the publio lands of a district.
No. 3, Should cuts be made on the numbers of livestock or by restriction, of
the season of use? California recommended cut in time or season of use rather^
than cut in numbers. No. 4. Should temporary allocation of range be incorpo-*
rated in all 1936 licenses? California recommended that allocation of range be
made in as many licenses as possible to fairly allot ranges in 1936 by the Advi-
sory Boards. No. 5. Should commensurate property be divided into classes and
definitely defined? Yes, same should be done as definitely as possible and at as
early a date as possible to do so correctly* No. 6 - If the issuance of prefer-
ential tern permits under Sec. 3 of tho Taylor Act is to be on the basis of de-
pendent commensurate property without consideration of prior uso, how soon is
their issuance advisable? Term permits arc only advisable when tho propor in-
formation has been obtained so term permits can bo justly given or approved.
No. 7 - the need for special rulos for fair range practice, and tho enforcement
of all rulos and regulations. California representatives sec tho nood of special
rulos and regulations and ask for tho approval and enforcement of special rules t;o
be suggested for 1936 use.
ttt^jmaa^Jum/mi |ti|B *■£«-
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Even though we are on a license basis in 1936, we hope to have special regu-
lations approved by Mr, Carpenter and the Secretary, and that they be in force in
1936. Our members of advisory boards in Calif ornia aro preparing to tako up all
the problems that may be boforo us this March, possibly the latter part of Febru-
ary, and. we hope to have special rules and regulations that will benefit our
neighborhood.
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As to organization, ' corporations are recommended for district associations
desiring same. That was quite a big question, and v/e did not go into it very
deeply. It -is going to take a great deal of study, but we know, in our district
in northern California, we arc very much in need cf some sort of corporation set-
up in addition to our Division of Grazing and our advisory board work, for ;tho
purpose of leasing Indian lands, school lands, and other stato lands which .are
intermingled with the range areas, and which, in pact years, operators who are
bothered by tramps on some part of these lands, much to the detriment of the peo-
ple who should have the proper use of the range. We hope to have an agency that
v/ill help us properly lease, distribute and charge for thoso lands,
California approves the ECW work program attached to the Division of Grazing
for the benefit of the livestock industry. Wo recommend the continuation and ex-
tension of that service and promise our cooperation towards its success.
At the present time, we have three ECW camps in our state , one in the south-
ern part of the state and two in the northern part of the state, and it is re-
markable how much benefit we are getting from these camps and the good work they
are doing. The boys are all Eastern boys. If any of you geirc.lcmen ha^c the pos;- ■
sibility of getting an ECW camp in your neighborhood, you want to recommend it.
For some reason, there seems to be a distinct change in the personnel of the
CCC boys. A few years ago, wo had .one ECW camp come in which was not attached to
the Division of Grazing, and there were quite a group of renegade boys Jn ib,
which disturbed the little communities. But now the hoys we have in our commu-
nity are just as fine boys as you could find anywhere — not only a credit to the
CCC activities but also to the homes from which -chey came. "*"
We have one further resolution: "The California delegation are in favor of
tho Taylor Grazing Act as it has been explained to us by Diroctor Carpenter „ We
will continue to support the Taylor Grazing Act as long as the democratic princi-
ple of homo rule for each of the grazing districts is granted tho grazing district
advisory boards by the Division of Grazing."
(Applause.)
MR. BRAY OF COLORADO* Mr, Pitchforth asked me to go to bat for him, which I
was very happy to do. At the outset, wo want it distinctly understood that tho
Colorado delegation desires to cooperate with the Department- of the Interior and
the Division of Grazing in any matter of finance, and not only m the matter of
finance but also in the administration of the district »
Tho Colorado delegation met at the hotel last ovening at 7:30, Tho entire
delegation was present, Tho first thing that came up was tho division of depend-
ent property into two classes. You remember that came up on the floor yesterday
and we had some discussion about it. It was moved, seconded and carriod that -che
Colorado delegation oppose putting those permittees in Class B whose commensurate
•property lios without a district. I night make just a small 'explanation of that
stand. In Colorado, wo have, especially sheepmen, who have had their property
there for as high as 25 and 30 years. It has always been their custom to trail
into Utah to the desert to winter. Now, if thoso people are put in Class B, I
would like to ask you what you are going to do with all those sheepmen. They are
legitimate sheepmen; thoy are not tramps.' They havo commensurate property and
lots of it. ;
**Z7 MP
ppppNP
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Questions Should cuts within a class be made on the numbers of livestock or
by restriction of the season of use? ^mswer: Moved, seconded and carried. that
the Colorado delegation go on record that cuts within a class bo loft with the
local board. Everything that we could not decido to answer "yes" or "no", wo
passed the buck to the local board. The local board needs some authority ' and, as
I understand our delegation, wo aro in favor of giving them authority, ahd they
are not going to dodge it. \ -m
No. 4. Should temporary allocations of range bo incorporated in all 1936
licenses? Moved, seconded and -carried that Colorado delegation favor the advisory
boards to make the necessary allocations and that they. recommend temporary allo-
cations until such time as term permits can be issued.
No. 5* Should commensurate property be divided into classes and definitely
defined? The Colorado delegation recommend that property be divided into classes
and definitely defined, but that Item D, namely: "Special facilities for protec-
tion of livestock", be plaoed under Item C in the following paragraph.
No, 6. If the issuance of preferential term permits under Section 3 of the
Taylor Act is to bo on the basis of dependent commensurate property without con-
sideration of prior use, how soon is their issuance advisable? The Colorado del-
egation favors the issuance of preferential term permits en a basis of commonsur-
ability, dependability, and priority, as at present, and that it be left under
the control of tho local board. You see, we keep throwing it off onto the local
board.
Question: Should any fee be paid for temporary license? I am just going to
read the answer, and then the remarks I make afterward will be entirely on my own.
"The Colorado delegation is in favor of paying not to exceed ten cents per head
per month for cattle and two cents per head per month for sheep, providing' that
term permits be issued if and when fees are paid." . In this connection, I might
say that the Colorado delegation probably wore not unanimous on that, but the
feeling among tho Colorado stockmen is this, that if you will leave the adminis-
tration of tho Taylor Act in tho wost among the Colorado stockmen, and the Utah
stockmen, and the other western states, we are willing to assume the full re-
sponsibility of paying the entire cost of administration*
(Applause.)
MR. WORTH LEE OF IDAHO: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Secretary, ladies and gentlemen:
I might say that these recommendations were the recommendations from all of the
users of the public domain from the state of Idaho that were here present at Salt
Lake and they were made with the understanding that they would be in no way pre-
judicial to any latitude which might be given to the local boards of each dis-
trict. Yvro realized that all the latitude possible, and all the consideration
possible, that the Taylor Bill would allow, should be given and considered, from
the recommendations of the local board, as it studied the qualifications and the
classification of each permittee on each application for a permit. I might say
that we worked long and diligently, and discussed this in every manner possible,
and we could have spent a longor time on each one of them, but these are the re-
commendations that we finally arrived at, as far as we were able to get down tho
line;
Grazing fees: Resolved by the stockmen of Idaho that no fees be required to
be paid under the Taylor Grazing Act until the stockmen are issued permanent per-
mits.
No, 2. Policies: Resolved and recommended by the stockmen of Idaho that,
where a man be determined as a Class A applicant under subdivision A of Section 1
of Policies that such right be recognized in contiguous or adjacont districts, it
having boon specifically understood that district boundaries and state lines would
not jeopardize tho customary use of the range. '
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No, 3 in regard to "Cuts", Resolved by the stockmen of Idaho that if any
cuts are to bo made that they be made by animal days instead of any cut incum-
bers. If a man had an economical unit, where he could run a certain number of
sheep, and docidod that his ranch was too small, that, in place of cutting his
number for that year, that he be notified that ho could buy a little pasture or
something, and still reserve the right to keep his full quota, an economical
unit, u« -
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No. 5. Divide commensurate property into classes. Resolved by the stockmen
of Idaho that no action be taken on the division of commensurate property into
classes at this time. Now, I will say that wo talked this over at length, and
finally recommended to the s too lemon that no action be taken on the division of
commensurate property into classes at this time. I will say that District 1 had
already set up rules that they had recommended to the Secretary of the Interior
that wero just about as noar fair as we could decide on for the district in Idaho
that had been set up. Of course, wo have users in the other two districts, in
contemplation that had as much to say about this as the district thai}/ was set up.
No, 7. Need 'Of special rules. Resolved that the question of need of special
rules £or fair range practice, and the enforcement of all rules and regulations
be unanimously passed at this time without action. We did not have much of a
set-up in Idaho and wo did not really know just what kind of rules we wanted. It
was getting latffv at that time and tho boys were getting ready to seek a little re-
freshment at that time, or rest themselves, just whatever you want to *al 1 it, and
.we passed it up,
Organization. Resolved by tho stookmon of Idaho that we are not well enough
posted at this timo to make any resolutions on organisation at this time.
Improvements. Resolved by tho stockmen of Idaho that we are not well enough
posted at this time to make any resolutions on improvements at this time*
But we did, as will be shown later, we appreciated tho CCC camps and re-
alised the wondorful assistance they could be in improvement of the range and, if
wo had a term period of years that we knew we could depend on them to make the
projects and start them out on the work.
That concluded all the questions that we had passed on and, under this new
business, I will read the resolutions and explain it if it is not clear to you.
VOICE* I think you neglected to state our position on No. 6 on Page o.
ME, LEE: I beg your pardon. No, 6. .Issuance of term permits. I over-
looked that and, by the way, it was one that carried a great deal of discussion
and I am very glad you called my attention to that. We discussed this long and
faithfully and, after wo finished, idiis was our conclusions Resolved by the
stockmen of Idaho that it is our judgment that permits should never be issued
without consideration of prior use, Nov/, the point that we wore trying to get
at, I gather from the discussion there, was this, that we felt that our personal
property and our real estate already was standing about all the taxes that it
could pay; in fact, in Idaho, it takes a pretty good business man to borrow
enough money to pay his taxes, and we wanted it brought down to this fact, that
any extra assessment or fees of any kind that could be assessed against the
stockmen on the public domain, should bo only as much as it would actually Use
for their part of tho administration or policing of the public domain.
Now, you gentlemen from Idaho, if I have overlooked anything, call my atten-
tion to it, I believe that is the extent of our resolutions.
MR. CARPENTER: It is evident, from the attention and checking being made on
this, that no one, not even the chairman, is going to skip anything,
MR. MATHIS OF ARIZONA: I have boon reminded, since I took my se»at, tha-b I
overlooked giving tho room my definition of "contiguous",
MR. CARPENTER: I am glad your conscience worked. You can give it now.
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MR. MATHIS: Distriot No. 1 of Arizona and District 4 of Utah, their inte-
rests overlap so that wo had some considerable discussion as to defining I what
"contiguous" might bo called in terms of distance. We decided that Iron, Kano,
and Washington counties will be counted as contiguous to the district, or adjoin-
ing counties to the district will be counted as contiguous to the district.
MR. CARPENTER: Thank you, Mr. Ifethis, That is tho first definition of
"fringe" that I have ever heard attempted. We are going to have to define it
some day; I guess 'we might as well start now. I am glad to see the Arizona Strip
had the norvo to tackle it.
MR. J. M. JONES OF OREGON: I am not going to attempt to give you my ideas or
the ideas of a lot of tho representatives from Oregon, but I am just going to
briefly road what we did. I think there are two words that most all of us like
to hear in praotically ovory speech that is made before very many public I gather-
ings, and that is: "In closing." So I will use this as "in closing." I have
not got the questions, but you are all familiar with them now, so I will just
road the answers to the questions.
Oregon delegates to tho Taylor Act Grazing Conference, following the oponing
session of the conference today, made the following recommondations, which will
be presented to all delegates tomorrow:
That a grazing fee for 1936 be fixed at 2 cents per month per head for cat-
tle and horses and one fifth of that amount for sheep.
That tho definition of the terms "contiguous" or "near" be left to tho Advi-
sory Board in each individual oaso and sot-up.
That, local Boards bo permitted to determine whether cuts of stook or time
should be made in each individual permit.
That the question of allotments should be left to the local boards, -with per-
mission to decide "when the allotment should be. made and whether' they should be in-
dividual or group*..
That cultivated feed, permanent water and protected pasture be considered as
commensurate property, together with other pasture whon used in connection with a
permanent setrup. '•■
That long-term permits bo issued as soon as possible.
MR. TERRITT OF MONTANA: Wo, the representatives of the advisory boards of
the grazing districts of Montana, attending the conference in Salt Lake, make
tho following recommendation. I want to say here that these recommendations were
unanimous in every case. There was no dissenting vote on any of the propositions.
We, the representatives of Advisory Boards of the Grazing Districts of Mon-
tana attending the conference in Salt Lake City make the following recommenda-
tions,
1. Grazing Fees, (a) We recommend that a reasonable fee to cover adminis-
trative costs should be paid for tho 1936 temporary license where range alloca-
tions are made.
(b) We feel that not to exceed one oent per head per month for sheep, fivo
cents for cattle, and sove'n and one-half cents for horses is a reasonable fee to
be assessed in proportion to tho percentage of public domain included in tho area.
I might say tho Montana delegation take the position that they aro porfectly
willing to pay their way. They don't want to pay more than tho cost of adminis-
tration, because they feel that their taxes are already so high that no additional
burden should bo imposed, •
No. 2. Division of dependent properties into classes. We feel that this ia
a question to be left to the discretion of the individual advisory boards.
i
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B-8
No. 3. Should outs vdthin a olass bo made on tho numbers of livestock or by
restriction of tho season of use? We submit that this question is purely a local
one and therefore it should bo left to the discretion of tho various Advisory
Boards,
No, 4. Should temporary allooations of. range be incorporated in all 1936
licenses? (a) Wo are in favor of^ temporary allocation, (b) We recommend that
the basis of allocations bo loft to the discretion of the Advisory Boards*.. ,
I
No, 5, Should commensurate property be divided into classes' and definitely
defined? We consider this question is purely a local problem and therefore re-
commend its solution be loft to the discretion of the various Advisory Boards.
i '
No, 6. Issuanoo of preferential term permits. We recommend that no term
permits be issued until such tino as tho carrying capacity of the dependent com-
mensurate property bo determined and a forage survey of the public lands is made
in carder to determine their carrying oapaoity,
I want to add just this, that tho members of the ^advisory boards of Montana
are willing to aocept all tho responsibility placed upon them, and they f pel that,
tho only way to successfully administer the Taylor Grazing Act is to place ade-
quate authority in the local advisory board.
MR. OLIVER LEE OF NEW MEXICO: I fear that you v/ill feel that New Mexico is
making a very brief report on this questionnaire* New" Mexico has, from the begin-
ning, endorsed the Taylor Grazing Act. New Mexico ha3, from the beginning en-
dorsed the program devised by the Department pf tho Interior and brought to us by
Mr. Carpenter. New Mexico has been in such full. accord with that program and with
Mr, Carpenter's ideals and ideas of proper administration for the public domain
that we feel it is unnecessary almost for us to statd our position on any of those
questions, because they are already well known.
• Further, I think one reason for our briefness is that we oxpeotod that, pos-
sibly, we would just answer "yes" or "no" to the various questions in the program*
But, to be a little more spooifia, I will take up just a few of tho different ,.
questions and state our position. (
One of the first questions I come to on the program: Should any fee be paid
ro'r temporary license. The answer to that is "yes" provided that temporary or
permanent allotments of range are tied, to tho fee. As to the amount of the fee,
the attitude, I think, of not only the delegation from New Mexico, but the atti-
tude of all the users will be, I think, so far as the users of the public domain
in New Mexico are concerned, that, as the Secretary of the Interior has been kind
enough to suggest to us a fee that might be acceptable to the Department, that we
feel we should meet him on that question.
If I remember oorreotly, the fee suggested by Mr, Walters, Assistant Secre-
tary, was one oent per head per month for sheep and five cents per head per
month for cattle and horses. I think that fee is acceptable to New Mexico. It
certainly is to the New Mexico delegation representing the different grazing dis-
tricts that are here, and, in passing, I might say that it has been the exooption
at any meeting that we have held in N©w Moxioo that there was any difference of
opinion — any serious difference of opinion.
In New Mexico, the livestock raisers •— you will pardon me for saying New
Mexico, because I really mean the livestook raisers in New Mexico — both snoop-
men and cattle men have always been unanimous, or approximately unanimous in
their reoommondations on all of these different questions, and the recommenda-
tions that I am offering you here today are unanimous as far as the Now Moxioo
delegation is oonoerned*
We have this question, which I believe has rathsr confused some of the other '
boards, whioh gives considerable concern, and that is this question: "If the is-
suance of preferential term permits under Seotion 3 of the Taylor Act is to be on
tho basis of dependent commensurate property without consideration of prior uso,
how soon is their issuonoe advisable?" We felt that any answer we mado would bo
tho wrong answer, beoause the question is predicated on something that we feel
/
B-9
is not equitable. I don't think you can got, an equitable adjustment of the use
of, the public domain without you consider priorities. .
(Applause, ) j 1 1 .
We admit possibly that it is not written into the law, but I feel that the
intent of the law carried that. Our delegation decided that we. would not attempt
to make a re commendation at this time, that on that question we would pass.
Further, it was the opinion and recommendation of our delegation that some
means should'be provided by which an assessment could be legally made for dis-
tricts in our state, that the revonuo so derived from that assessment should go
into the local treasury of the respective districts to be disbursed by the local
boards in their discretion for the necessary policing, improvement and care of
the, grazing distriot, relieving the department of that amount of expense.,
In conclusion, I would like to say that the New Mexico delegation is in full
accord with the efforts of 'Mr, Carpenter to bring about the proper use of the
public domain, I think you,
MR. WILLIAM WRIGHT OF NEVADA: I wish to preface -my remarks with a statement
that I am not a member of any advisory board. The state o,.f Nevada is rather gen-
erally represented at this conferonco by men who are on advisory boards, by men
who are in areas hoping later to come into .districts, and by men who have pre-
ferred to remain wild.
I have been honored and privileged (to act as temporary chairman with the
thought, I believe, that all oomers would be represented, , First, I would like to
state that Nevada/endorses the stand which has been taken hero, relative to amend-
ing the Act having fees not go beyond the cost of administration. Second, I
should like to clarify Nevada1 s position relative to fees.
The discussion here yesterday was very interesting, and it was evident to-,
the Nevada delegation that many folt Nevada was trying to get something for ^
nothing, which- of oourse pours water on the wheel of the eastern conservationists
who have always 'maintained the wostern stockmen were getting something Tor
nothing, We in Nevada wish not to bo in the gratuity class. Vie never have been.
We have always paid' for our range and we intend to keep on paying for it. But wo
have, involved there, a very serious problem.
• When you stop to oorisider that, of the entire area of the State of Nevada,
only ten percent, or a little over, is privately owned land, fifty percent of
the ten percent, one half of the ten percent, is owned by the railroads. This
ten percent, owned by the railroads and private interests, shoulders the entire
tax burden of the State of Nevada, Thru the indirect process of carrying -those
taxes and the interest upon owning strategic land holdings to control the range,
strategic water holes, wo have paid dearly to control our grass. ,_
This is brought out on the cost studies of grass per cow unit, and I defy
anyone, oven those who maintain wo are getting something for nothing, to break
down this position, and fees, therefore, for us, must be compensated for in a re-
adjustment of the tax structure, which is now carrying the entire state, almost
80 percent of which is to come under federal regulation.
In Nevada, we are not quite as quick in the head as we might bo, and we were
given a rather heavy order to digest, analyze and crystallize thoughts to go on
record concerning the various policies that have boon presented to us. We were
unable to do it — perhaps wo will be classed as thoso in the drag of the herd —
but, rather than take the risk of jeopardizing the welfare of our livostock in-
dustry, the bdsio industry of our state, wo have preferred to proceed oautiously,
and, in -one brief resolution, we have covered our stand:
_ — . . .___ — _
1 ■ ■■
/ /
k-ir
We tho Nevada delegation, resolve that ihore should he no feo during the
temporary license period, until such time as permits are issued and that all mat-
tors brought up hore, such as tho changing of Classes. 1, 2 and 3 in Circular 2,
should bo left to tho local boards, as well as tho determination of tho amount of
foos.
I wish in conclusion, to' state that tho Nevada stockmen are very glad to
cooperate with tho Division of Grazing in an effort to work out this very far- ,.
reaching problem. Our only concern is our vory existonoo, our. very life in the
range business. Thank you, • ,
(Applause,)
MR, J. L. NIELSEN OF UTAH: I brought my secretory along for several - reasons.
This is the first time I ever stood beforo a microphone, and, in caso I might fall
dead, ho could go on with the report. And another tldng, I brought nim along for
is, after looking at tho chairman, you might get a wrong impression of tho Utah
delegation, so I brought ono good-looking man along.
Delegates of Utah met last night and invited all the graziers in tho state
to meet with us. Wo askod thorn to discuss the various problems that wo wore given
to disouss, and that lasted about two hours. Then wo asked them to withdraw, and
the delegation voted on tho different propositions. Wo might state wo consider
it a very big job for us to handle in such a short timo, and we thought that som*
action should be taken. •
While those decisions aro premature, perhaps, and not thoroly digested, they
are the very best we could do- under tho conditions and timo given. I will ask my
secretary to road tho problem and question, and then I will give the position of
the board.
MR. FRANCIS: Under Finances* A, Should any fee be paid for temporary li-
censes?
MR. NIELSON: Decision: Until such time as districts commence to operate on
a permit basis, finances shall bo termed as assessments and rates prescribed by
the District Advisory Boards, the entire amount to bo expondod by District Advi-
sory Boards in preparing Districts for issuance of permanent permits.
That means that, whore a permitteo is grazing in two districts, that those
local assessments would bo prorated according to tho time he grazed there.
MR. FRANCIS: Quostion: If any fee should bo paid, what amount should it bo?
MR. NIELSON: Dooision: When and at such time as the districts oommonco to
operate on a permit basis, finances shall be termed as fees, rates to be 1/2 cent
per head per month for sheep, and goats, and 2^ conts per head per month for cat-
tle and horses, pro-rat od as follows? 25°/ to tho Fodoral Government; 25% re-
turned to district advisory boards for range development within distriots; 50%
to >>e roturnod to Counties,
Wo endorsed the action taken by the gonoral assembly on Monday January 13,
approving the ohange in preferential classes for licenses, ©n thit subject, wo
had our liveliest fight. I intended to say, in tho beginning, that theso deci-
sions wore not unanimous in many casos, and, in this particular case, we had our
big fight, being almost equally divided, but the majority ruled according to this
decision.
1/31, FRANCIS: Question as to dividing dopendont proportios into two classes
as follows: A. Those within or contiguous to a district. B. Other properties
that have or oan be usod in connection with the public lands of a district.
MR. NIEISON: We approve dividing of dependent properties into two classes
with tho provision that tho District Advisory Boards be privileged to classiiy <
and interpret Sub-divisions (a) and (b), according to tho conditions within their
particular districts.
. — . — _ , .
'':"':'^'v ;
i
B-ll
- MR. "FRANCIS: Should outs within a class be mode on the numbers of livestock
or by restriction of the season of use?
MR. NIELSON: Cur decisions are that this be left to the discretirn of the
District Advisory Boards.
MR. -FRANCIS « Should temporary allocations of range be incorporated j in all
1936 licenses? • p • / • •■ I - '•. j ;
MR. NIELSON: We amend No. 4 under "Policies" as follows: That temporary
allocations of range be incorporated as far as pos s ible in 1936 licenses, basis
for allotment under Sub-divisions (a), (b), "Co) and (dT~to be determined by Dis-
trict Advisory Boards.
MR. FRANCIS: Should commensurate property be divided into classes and defi-
nitely defined?
MR. NIELSON: We approve division of' commensurate property into classes, de-
finitely defined. Division and classification shall be determined by District
Advisory Boards.
MR. FRANCIS: If the issuance of preferential term permits under Section 3
of the Taylor Act is to be on the 'basis of dependent commensurate property with-
out consideration of prior use, how soon is their issuance advisable?
MR. NIELSON: Term permits shall be issued as soon as possible and practical,
MR. FRANCIS: The need of speoial rules for fair range practice, and the en-
forcement of all rules and regulations.
/
MR, NIELSON: We charge the State Advisory Committee with the responsibility
of going into this matter, and with the District Advisory Boards and a represent-
ative of the Department of Interior, to v/ork;out a uniform and sound program of
range rules and practioes.
The names of members of the state advisory committee are J. B. White, Jas,
L. Nielson, Leo Stott, Lyman Sevey,' Wilford Clark, Charles Redd, Stylian Staes,
,B. H. Stringham, in ,the Sheep Division; and Lawrence Johnson, Bert Buraston, Ed
Murdock, Edw. T. Lamb, R. A. Meeks, L. L. Taylor, Jess Conover and H. E. See ley
in the Cattle Division.
We might say that we endorsed very heartily the work of the CCC camps.
In my own particular district, where I graze, w© have a camp there, doing wonder-
ful work. The Fountain Green Wool Growers that own large springs there and put
in some troughs, those have been turned over to the Interior department and they
have done a wonderful job in piping the water down to lower levels where we could
get, at it and placing tanks and troughs. They have completed two of these cases,
and we Tory heartily endorse the work of the CCC camps.
MR. METZ OF WYOMING: Like the gentleman from Nevada, I haven't the honor •
to be a member of an advisory beard. I have tho honor, however, to represent 'at
this conference the Governor of Wyoming, who, I may say, is vitally interested in
the outcome of your deliberations, as tho Chief Executive of one of the greatest
stockraising states. I take tho liberty to oarry to the Secretary, to you, Mr.
Carpenter, and to you, friends engaged in the stock business , tho greetings of
the Governor of Wyoming, and I add, personally > that I suppose- it is assumed, in
calling upon us last, that due deference is being paid to tho fact that Wyoming
is conceded to raise the best cattle and sheep in the Union.
MR. CARPENTER: You might start something with that.
VOICE: First joke we've had.
MR. METZ: Not having additional help to oarry the papers — (laughter) —
my apologies to Utah. My report will cover tho following throe phases: First";
fees. Second, the questions presented by Mr. Carpenter in tho program under if,
various heads. Third, some rather snaky -and -wo oily resolutions on our own, which
j
B-12
we bolicvo will bo of general intcrost to this conference.
As to tho first, Wyoming recommends that no foos ho chargod until such time
as permits arc issued.
Socond, as to the various questions prosontcd by the Secretary and Mr. Car-
penter under Section 2 of "Polioios": Subsection 2, on dividing dependent commen-
surate properties. The Wyoming dologatos have dotorminod to refer this question
to thorAdvisory Board of oach district,
Sub-soction 3: "Should cuts within a class bo made"? Wyoming has deter-
mined to refer this quostion to tho advisory board of each. district.
Sub-section 4, as to temporary allocations of rango in tho 1936 licenses:
It has boon determined that this matter should bo_ referred to the Advisory Board
in each distriot.
As to Soction 5 and tho various items presented in Soction 5, which have
been more definitely covered by other speakers, so that I boliove you are famil-
iar with them, it has boon determined by the Wyoming delegation that those ques-
tions should all bo refcrrod to tho advisory board in' oach district, which brings
mo to say that I am now glad I am not a member of tho Advisory Board.
Soction 6, doaling with the question of tho issuanco of preferential term
permits without prior uso: Tho Wyoming delegation most definitely rocommends
that issuanco of term permits under tho Act shall be mado on the basis of de-
pendent commensurate property with prior uso and not othorwiso.
Sub-soction 7, as to tho nood of special rules for fair rango practice:
No action was taken.
-v
Soction 3 on Organization. Items 1, 2 and 3. Wyoming has determined that
•it does not favor organization under Items 1 and 2. Ho attempt would bo mado to
. either suggost or doprivo others from suggesting regulations which might better
relations with existing livestock associations.
Section 4. 'Improvements. Items 1, 2, 3 and 4, including the items which
are familiar to you, among thorn CCC camps. No action was taken except that tho
work of tho CCC camps, it is concedod, would bo very definitely beneficial.
Departing now from tho quostipns prosonted by the program, I go t* tho reso-
lutions of general interest:
First resolution: Wyoming dologates request that tho rulos and regulations
heretofore proposed by tho Advisory Board of District No# 1, Wyoming, be approved
at onco.
■
Second resolution: Tho "Vfy-oming delegation requests amendment to .tho Act, or
other congressional aotion, pormitting any state, at its oleotion, as'exprosscd
by its stato legislature, to tako ovor tho public domain within its borders for
administration, loaso and sale. That resolution will, of course, bo of no par-
ticular consequence to those statos which do (not doom such action advisable.
Third. Bo it further rosolvcd that rules and regulations governing tho
election of tho District Advisory Boards, bo/ writ ton into the Taylor Act. Bo it
further rosolvod that the authority and powers of • tho local advisory boards bo
written into the Taylor Aut. Be it further resolved that tho District Advisory
Boards bo grantod authority, under tho Taylor Act, to fix commonsurability
standards and to grant grazing permits.
Fourth. Bo it furthor resolvod that we are ©pposod to any rostrictivc
amendments to Sections 8, 14 or 15 of tho Taylor Act,
I am furthor advised, sinco the passage of the forogoing rosolution, that
tho powers -that -bo, our local brass hats from Wyoming on tho Advisory Board, mot
in a" star chambor sossion aftor tho rest of us common pooplo had gono homo last
night, and doterminod that, if tho passage of tho forogoing resolutions, provid-
|gj|dfgiWj|af|
B-13
ing the rules of District 1 are approved' and become really effective, and the
range adequately preserved so that real value may be received, then that they
were willing to pay any proper administration fee.
In closing, I will say that I am glad you have all conceded that Wyoming
raises the best cattle and sheep.
(Applause, )
ME. OLIVER LEE OF NEW MEXICO* In making my report for New Mexico, I failed
to cover one reported question. That is the question of commensur ability. It -
was the opinion of our delegation that, for the state of New Mexico, highest
consideration should be given, in the appraisement of commensur ability, to the
ownership of permanent water, and that no permits should be granted or commen-
surate property considered without it was attached to permanent water.
MR..MYE& OF YtfQEltfG: I would just like to state, for the benefit of this
audience, that, contrary to what some, of you people have said, that these resolu-
tions passed -by the Y.'yoming Board, were all passed unanimously.
MR. CARPENTER: I wish to say, from my observation of V/yoming, that, not
only do they raise some of the best cattle and sheep, and the -most of" them,, but
they raise something else quite a bit once in a while,
(Laughter and applause.)
MR. 'YvHINNERY; Colorado: If the states are thru, perhaps, as one of the
minority of the Colorado Delegation, we. should now explain our position.
MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Whinnery. raises the question as to whether, at this time
we will." receive minority reports. The Chair will rule that the discussion will
proceed, as we have to leave the room for othor uses, then the matter will be
placed before the house at 1:45.
MR. WRIGHT OR NEVADA: So that there will be no doubt relative to Nevada's
position, I wish to say that our resolution also was unanimous and, further, the
resolution in itself indioatos that we most certainly, endorse the recommendations
relative to amending the Act concerning providing definitely for local autonomy.
MR. McFARLANE OF UTAH: It seems that each stato has had to get up and ex-
plain what they meant r I recommend to thorn to take their secretary along as the-
Utah man did.
(Laughter.)
MR. CARPENTER: Before v/e proceed to a discussion of these recommendations,
it is only fair to you that a few of. the — as Secretary V'alters terms them —
"ghosts", that are wandering around, if they can not be allayed, at least they
can be somewhat explained.
There wore three matters taken up in these resolutions that I feel I. should
comment on before v/e open this discussion. It was sugv ccted that wo ur;=;e Congress
to do something. You will realize, you district advisors, that, as members of the
Department " of the Interior, neither you nor I can participate in lobbying. As in-
dividuals — which you are at all times v/hen you have not been- called in your- ad-
visory capacity, and not under pay by the Department of the Interior — you are
froe4 of course, to lobby,
I v/ish at this time to mako it plain that petitions to Congress or individual
congressmen, or resolutions having to do v/ith legislation, should not be signed as
a district advisor, nor should it be signed "District Advisory Board". That v/ould
be similar to my asking Congress as Director of Grazing. You will .kindly bear that
distinction in view and it will save you and I and everyone else embarassment,
Tho second matter I wish to comment on — and Which in no way curtails your
right, thru associations and as individuals, to do as you please and exercise
! •
i
! : j ■
B-14
your rights, but, as members of the Department, we will refrain from lobbying.
As to spooial rules of the range. I had, from every district, a moss of spe-
cial rules of the rongo handed to me with the recommendation that they beihandod
to the Secretary for his approval, that they bo posted and become a part of' tho'
federal statutes doaling with that district. Of thoso special rules, fully fifty
percent of them we ro along this lino: "Wo ro commend that commonsurato property
consist of pasture land" or "not of pasture land", and so on and- so on. In other
words, they were suggested constructions of the Taylor Act. Thoy wore in no
sense special rules' of fair range practice. They woro the best reaction which
the board members had to the problem in front of them.
You are awaro that, for mo to submit to the Socretary of the Interior a con-
struction of tho Act that tho beard thought was favorablo would not bo such a
rulo of fair range practice that could bo applied. For that reason, tho job I
had was to tako *ut constructions of tho law and put in what would bo rulos of
tho range. Thoy inevitably consisted of theso mattors: "Wo rocommond such and
such a class of bulls". "So many pounds of salt per critter hoad". "Wo rocom-
mond" various and other mattors.
One board rocommendod that no herd of snoop bo allowed to bed twice in tho
samo place, Ono board in Now Moxico reoommondod — and also one in another
state — that thero bo no butchering on the publio domain unless thoro had boen a
license horotoforo issuocU
I took theso 34 sots of spocial rules to the Solicitor's office. Ho went
over them very carefully and ho said, "What about this butchoring on tho range?"
I said, "It is a vory dangerous practioo, and big losses aro being sufforod."
Then ho said, "Do you think it is a 'good rule?" I said, "I: oortainly do. If a
man wants, to butchor, lot him put his hido in the corral, "or olse got a license
to butchor on tho range." Ho said,. "Why haven* t other boards passed on it?" I
said, "I suppose bocauso it was not presontod to them, and thoy didn't think
- about it."
..Ho said, "What about this matter of bedding? Is that a good thing?" I said
"I. think it is.". Ho said, "Why didn't other boards put it in?" I said, "Largely
bocauso thoy didn't think of it."
Ho said, "Jsn't this tho truth, that in most oases, tho boards adopted tho
spooial rulos that other boards had passod, and maybe didn't give thorn a lot of
consideration?" I had to say, "I think that is so.". Ho said, "Take thoso spocial
rulos back, and, when a board passes thorn, ^havo thorn oonsidor all of tho spocial
rulos that might be applicable, bocauso, when you writo statutes in tho United
States lows; you havo got to do it with consideration of all possibilities."
That sounded like protty good common sonso to mo, and, at tho risk of having
to oxplain why I did not submit a ono of those rulos to tho Secretary, I thought
it would moot with your approval, that you would rather now havo forms of each
ono of tho 34 sent for your consideration in ordor that, when you do pass this
legislation, you do it in a complete manner, instoad of passing pari; for oiie dis-
trict and part for another one, and then next yoar start to. change, and back and
fill; passing laws and changing thorn, and filling them in in about six months,
would give anybody tho jitters.
i ,
I would rather wait and have thorn right. I believe now wo are in a position
to submit thorn to tho local boards. That is tho roason'that the spocial rulos
havo not reached the Socretary.
Tho third mattor which undoubtedly is on everyone's mind hero, and an inter-
esting mattor is v/hcthor, when we como to torm pormits, tho prior uso of tho
range is going to bo considorod. Soarch Soot ion 3 of tho Taylor Aotj thcro is no
mention of prior uso that I can find in Soot ion 3 of tho Taylor Act. You can
find, howovor, some words that, until rooontly, mo ant almost nothing to me. I
bolicvo, now, altho tho mattor has not boon officially submitted or approved,
that it is worthy of your consideration to tako up what was moant by the last
words of Section 3 of tho Act.
t
■s-
B-15
. , *
Whon it said "so far as consistent with the purposos and provisions of this
Act, grazing privilogos rocognizod and acknowledged shall bo adequately safe-
guarded", what doos that moan? Nov/, you toll mo what a licenso is. I suggest
that a licenso is a grazing privilogo, rocognizod and acknowlodgod by tho local
board. Is that right? Is it anything clso? IsxiH it an oxact dofinition of
what was put in the last part of Sootion 3 of tho Taylor Act? Isn't it precisely
a grazing privilogo which, undor tho rulos governing issuance of licenses, has
boon rocognizod and acknowlodgod? ., .
I .
If that, is corroct, tho holdors of liconscs that conic up for term pormits
will have, in addition to tho commonsurato properties, which aro recognized in
tho first part of Section 5, thoy will havo in addition to that a grazing privi-
logo that has boon rocognizod and acknowledged by tho issuance of a license
If that is correct and thoro is inadoquato range — public range — for all
of tho dependent commonsurato properties of all of tho applicants, it will bo
nocossary to ask for additional qualifications bosides tho possession and control
of dopondent commonsurato proporty, will it not? Is thoro not a fair chanco that
in looking around for tho additional collateral, so to speak, that an applicant
for a term permit must havo when ho stands in an equal class with all of tho
othor dependent commonsurato proporty owners, and comes to a board that only has
adequato public rango for half of them, that he ask that tho latter part of Sec-
tion 3 of tho Taylor Act bo considered and that his rights hcrotoforo issued bo
considorod a grazing privilogo, rocognizod and acknowledged, and, as tho owner of
such, that that privilogo bo adoquatoly safoguardod.
I do not know, gentlemen, whothcr this will bo tho outcome of tho mattor,
but I suggost for your consideration that thought, because, if I rightly road tho
sonso of this mooting, and if I can rightly predict the rosult of this assembly,
wo aro going to bo horo in another yoar, standing on what we havo done this year,
and preparod to tako tho third stop, which is going to bo tho issuanco of term
pormits.
Now, I put thoso throo matters, with such explanation as I can, before you ,
to wit: tho mattor of lobbying, the matter of special rulos of the rango, and
tho suggestion for tho futuro as to torn pormits, becauso, if you approach term
permits believing that they aro going to upset all of the recognized grazing
privilogos, if you will, all tho work of tho boards, all of tho liconscs hereto-
fore issuod, tl^on indcod you must approach it with considerable tropidation, but^
on tho othor hand, if you beliovo that thoso words put in thoro almost oxactly
dofino what wo aro already doing, thon you can soo that thoso with grazing privi-
leges nocd havo loss tropidation than thoso without them, and that the intenso
dosiro of tho west to protoct their prioritios will be adoquatoly considered whon '
we roach that point. •
Nov/, gentlemen, I como to tho mattor of tho consideration of tho ten resolu-
tions which wo havo horo, and I wish to summarizo and call your attention to this
fact, that stato after state in. coming to controversial subjects said that thoy
recommended it bo loft to tho local board. You might summarizo tho ontire states'
sttitudo by .saying that, whonovor you Aiavo got. a "hot" question, "lcavo it up to
tho local board."
<
Now, I want to give you a little history. Thoro are representatives of tho
local boards in front of mo. Last summer, in five days, I met with fivo boards.
I mot at Burns, Oro., on ono day. I went to Boise, Idaho, the next day; Elko,
Nevada, tho noxt day, and Salt Lako tho fourth day, and Craig, Colorado, tho 5th
day. Fivo states; fivo boards. And I think I got a fair cross soction. I think
they wcro considoring appeals and, in somo casos, original liconscs. I wish to
state, now, that I took tho roquost of thoso boards to heart, and I bolicvo thoy
fairly roprosont what tho othor boards want.
This is what I found: Thoy said: "Wo aro only ablo to do half a job, be-
cause wo only havo half of tho information in front of us. Wo do not havo tho
statistical information as to tho corroctnoss of thoso statements on commonsurato
proporty. Horo is a man saying ho has 250 tons of hay ovory year. A board mem-
bor who lives noxt door to him has boon passing his ranch every day for thirty
m
B-16
yoars and never saw but two "doodlos" of hay thoro. Wo aro not going to go into
a spiral horo and say the local boards aro going to decide ovorything in a beauti-
ful v/ay and nako us all happy. Thoy oan only work with such tools ao wo givo ■
thorn. Thoro is not a nombor of tho local board who thinks ho had good tools last
year. Am I right?
AUDIENCE: Yos.
MR, CARPENTER: Wo aro going to considor some bottor tools or else wo aro
going to stand still. I want to say for mysolf , personally, that, unless^ this
procossion movos along a littlo all tho timo, I an going to lose as much Interest
in it as you will loso in it. I took up a homestead in 1907 and bought a new
grub-hook to cloar tho sagebrush, and most of tho paint is still on tho grub-
hook, and most «of tho sagebrush is still thoro. I want to stay with this outfit
as long as youAvant to move.
You can talk about local autonomy and tho wisdom of local boards and it
means just that (snap of fingors) if you aro going to stand still for thirty
days. You havo to colloct and gathor. By coming horo, you aro asked to submit
tho wisdom you havo loarnod from oxporionco — not as to how good you wore or how
stand-pat you could bo, but whothor you could tako a stop forward in doing some-
thing for the livestock industry of tho west.
When you say you aro going to loavo everything with tho looal board, and
furnish them with no noro tools than Circular 2 furnished them, it moans that you
aro going to. loavo thorn, standing around liko a cow with a cud. You may tell tho
world v;o did a "hot" job distributing rango. Do you think wo did such a "hot"
job? (Chorus of nogativos.) I don?t. I think you aro going to havo to work
this yoc.r hardor than you over workod, and, if this assombly disbands and novo*
puts another tooth into tho thing, you aro not going to be able to do anything
moro with tho applications than wo did last yoar.
How long do you think ovorybody is going to bo s.atisfiod with a rehash, of
what you did last yoar? Will you bo very proud if you just do that again? Will
this much-vauntod idoa of local so If -government amount to anything oxcopt a weak
rctroat from thoso who don»t want anything dono? An I right? (Chorus of affirma-
tives and applause.)
Now, gontlonon, wo aro going to tako up those nattors one by ono. Wo have
asked for froo and full and frank discussion. Wo aro going into an oxocutivo
sossion in which tho olootod dologatos of tho 34 boards aro going to
talk and oxpross themselves, and they aro going to voto by 34 district boards
without regard to stato linos, bocauso that is the only fair way for this eighty
million acros to bo roprosontod. Is it not? (Chorus of affirmatives and ap-
plause)
And wo aro going to continue our policy if you aro willing to back ne up in
this. Wo want ovorybody to bo horo and hear it, and if thoro aro any of tho dis-
trict advisors that don»t want to got up and say what they say in tho prosenco
of ovorybody, thoy had bottor stay away too. So, in tho twonty-fivo ninutos that
aro left us, wo will not be ablo to covor thoso questions. But I an going to
tako up ono of thorn, and I an going to ask for a briof tino that wo hoar only
from tho district advisory boards bocauso I tako it to bo the sonsc of tho ontiro
assembly that ovorything bo left to tho district boards. Very woll, it is; I
Now, I an asking tho district boards what thoy are going to do with it.
Thoy put it in your lap. Aro you going to tako it homo with no moro rulos than
you had when you cane horo?, It is a tough job for neighbor to pass on noighbor
oven in a roconnondatory way. You nay say, "Why got to making divisions and
classifications?" and I will toll you why. Aft or all, this is a country ruled by
law and not non. You distriot advisors do not wish to docido on tho Applications
of all your noighbors with no rulos to back you, do you? You don't want to do it
according to your porsonal dosiros. If you don't want to do it personally ac-
cording to your porsonal dosiros, you havo got to have sono rulos.
1
B-17
Wo did not know much about rulos whon Circular 2 was nado. Wo know moro
about it now bocauso wo havo worked — and you gent lemon havo workod more in do-
tail with the applications than I havo, I could not spond all tho rost of tho
winter going from state to state, and besides I rooognizo that if we had a fair
number of delogatos horo thoy would rocognizo that this problem has certain
national aspects.
In Arizona thoy havo an entirely different sot-up than Montana and Idaho.
It has boon of intorost to tho dolcgatos to hoar tho other sections of tho 'coun-
try givo thoir points of viow and soo that such regulations as aro issuod must
tako a national standpoint and at tho samo timo must lcavo sufficient leeway so
that in thoir application thoy will not come too hard on a district whero thoso
facts do not apply.
In making our rulos or procooding further with thorn wo oxpoct to of for to
ovory district board such an assortment of sharpened tools so that the board
can look at thoso tools and look at thoir applications, and you will not havo to
say to tho mombors of the Grazing Division whon thoy como around, "You did not
furnish us with anything dofinito. I don't .mind passing on Bill JonosT applica-
tion if, when I got out of this room and moot him on tho street, I can say, 'Now
Bill, you got what everybody olso in your class got, and you got what tho regula-
tions, which wo havo dooidod upon,- said you should get.'"
.. ■ i ■
You aro not afraid to do that. That is your job in assisting in this ad-
ministration. But if you don't havo more tools to work with than you did last
year, you aro in tho position of saying to Bill Jonos, "I did tho bost I could
for you but tho other boys woro against no-," Ko promptly goos around to tho
other boys, and they say, "Not at all. Ho was tho first ono for kicking you off."
Now, I don't fool that way about it, but I do fcol that Wo havo got to como
down to a very serious consideration if wo aro going to got down to this assembly
something to help tho local boards in 1936, and it is going to havo to be some way
along tho linos that havo been outlined hero. For tho district boards to end this
mooting with a resolution that ovorythinfe be loft to tho district boards would put
you out of businoss and put local autonomy out of business, and put an end to what
I think is a rdal oxporiment in self-government.
There aro too many pooplo in the United Statos who believed that this would
nevor work, who said, "Whon noighbor passes on noighbor, you will get injustico;
when people with selfish interests pass on others, you got nowhere." At tho end
of oighteon months, thoy will say, "Tako it and lot an impartial' man docido on
it." Who is tho "impartial man?" Who is tho Moses who will go to Mb. Sinai and
decide thoso things? I don't JtflOW any Sinai to go to, and I haven't got whiskers
onough to protend to be Moses.
Thcro is only ono placo I know of to go, and that is tho desort and you men
who are out horo handling it. Lot's toko this baby homo, sot it on our knee and
soo what wo Can do with it. I want to say this, as regards the foars in every-
body's hoart, that I have livod to see some of those foars down, and probably I
will livo to soo somo of thoso foars proporly substantiated. As yet, I havo not
seen ono of tho initial foars como true.
At tho start of this, I was just down in phoonix, whero they havo no Taylor
grazing districts in tho state oxcept tho strip. I am not dociding whothcr tho
strip is in Utah or Orogon or Arizona. Outsido of tho strip, thoy havo no graz-
ing districts in Arizona, and man aftor man, legit inato oporators, livestock op-
erators, camo to mo and said they don't want a district because, when you talk
about a local board going to toll mo how to run my business, you arc not talking
to mo.
Do you hoar that whore tho mon know what theso local boards arc? You do
not. At tho start of this, whon I wont from stato to state, thorc was not a
careful, substantial, livo stock-nan — and particularly tho largor operators —
that did not havo that f oar in his heart. I ask you mon roprosonting the largo
and snail oporators if the action of tho local boards and tho stato committees
in tho conforonco last night did not express sufficient trust in local boards to
•■r
'r^T
B-18
allay that f oar onco and for all. Do you believo that? .
(Chorus of affirmatives and applause.)
Vory well. Thon thoso substantial operators in Arizona havo a foar that is
unfoundod, that wo have allayed, New, thero *jas cmothor foar that, -when wo
started off, soemed to possess everybody,- and that wis that cattlo and shocp men
could not got along, I havo attondod beard nootings, not knowing whothor the ncn
v/oro cattle or sheep non, and, hearing then pass on applications, it was mpossi-
bio to say whothor thoy wore cattle or snoop men. Isn't that right, gontlomcn of
tho boards?
(Chorus of affirmatives.)
So you havo got a rocord of real accomplishment. You bury this old idea
that, if you aro a shoopman, you want to wrcok tho range, and, if you are a cow-
nan, you want to wrock the shoepman. That is behind us.^
Then wo aro not afraid of a democratic sot-up — ono man; ono vote --and wo
aro not afraid of tho boards passing on those applications. Wo have got those
follows in back of us.
Now, wo have another foar that is in front of us, and that is the foar that
was expressed, that it would not all be left to the local board. It is all going
to bo left to tho local board in a rocommendatory wry, but tho local board will
bo unablo to function in a way oommondable to itself or in a way in which it can
advanco in tho administration unless it is furnished with more tools than Circu-
lar 2 gave it.
So that brings us down to tho question of whether wo aro really going to do
something with thoso matters or not. I have divided it into four subjects:
allotment of rango, division of dependent property, definition of dependent prop-
erty, and foes.
In coning now to tho first subjoct of allotment of ranges, I on going to
mako a briof explanation, thon I am going to call on the different board members
for an expression of opinion. Wo havo fifteen minutes to discuss that, then wo
will toko up tho other subjects. If wo do not finish tho ether subjects until
six o'clock tonight; wo will thon have an evening session to take up tho matter
of organization and improvements, which is not a matter for debate, but a matter
just to bo prosontod by solcctod speakers. But, if this assembly amounts to any-
thing, wo aro going to do something, and I take it to bo your will to stay right
hore until you do it. Is that right? (Applauso.)
Tho allocation of the rango: Some agroo it should bo done; all say it should
bo loft to tho local boards. Different onos wonder this way or that way how to
do it. It is impossible, in my- opinion, to advance in any way in tho administra-
tion of tho rango without untertaking, in somo way, an allotmont of it.
(Applauso.)
Now, I feel that thoso 34 roproscntativos of 34' boards, should toko a firm
stand on' that. It is a littlo hard for a local board meeting alone, if left en-
tirely discretionary with thorn, and an oporator comes in — maybe a friend of
yours — and he says, "You don't havo to do anything with allotments this year.
Wo are all human; wo all try not to troad on any more toes than wo havo to, and
wo will all take tho easiest way out of it. I have found that so and no doubt
vou have. If it is tho unanimous opinion of tho 34 districts hore that somo
allotment should bo mado, then, if you mako somo allotment, you can say to the
man who objects: "Tho board had no discretion; we had to go into some allot-
ments.
Would you rathor do that, or would you rather say to tho man: "It was loft
to us, whether wo would do it or not, and wo dooidod to do it. Isn't it a lit-
tlo fair, now that wo aro all horo, to mako ono rule, a general, rule, which will
,
B-19
apply to tho 34 districts as to wh.oth.or they do or not. As to how nuch is dono,
that will depend on the local boards, "but I doubt whether any of then will ovor
touch that subject unloss sonothing is dono about it*
In Utah, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, California, . Oregon and Novada,' tho
natter has boon moro or loss a moot matter, and I darosay, until" -it was brought up
and brought to j'our attention yostorday, nany of you dolcgatos did not rcalizo it
was almost impossibio to,continuo opo rating this show if wo did not. take ono stop
forward, and that ono stop forward was necessarily something better than what wo
have dono.
Wo havo pas sod on numbors and listod usors. Wo havo* a rango examination
sufficient from a practical standpoint, whon appliod with tho brains of tho live-
stock industry, to mako somo allotments on tho range • They may bo in some dis-
tricts only allotments by classos — no sinplo cattlo and sheep lino — but what-
.cvor you do is going to bo baokod up and incorporated, if that is your wish, in
ovory liconso issued.
Tho nattor of enforcement is going to bo done by tho Department. You havo
boon told that tho administration of tho range can not bo dologatod, and it can
not, but tho rogulation of tho rango has boon placed almost entiroly within your
hands. In 97-^ of your recommendations for liconses, your decision was final,
bocauso it was adopted by tho Secretary of the Interior. Don't let anybody toll
ycu that, bocauso you havo no final say in administration, you amount to nothing.
Thero is less than 2jg!> go any further. For tho great majority, your action is
final, bocauso it is approvod by the So c rotary. But, on tho mattor of enforce-
ment of rulos, wo do not oxpoct you to take any stop further than a posted noti-
fication of advico, and wo fool that tho fodcral enforcement agencies should take
caro of tho onforccmont alone and singlo handed — how do you liko it?
(Applauso.)
Pooplo rosont a distriot board monbor coming out and trying to police tho
district, and I' don't think it is fair to ask you to do it, I admit there was
somo quostion in my mind whon wo started. There is nono nor/". Tho Division of
Investigations investigated homestoaders when wo had thorn, but thoy havon,t got
thorn any more.* Thoy aro adequately proparod to mako those .investigations, and
spoodily. Wo havo, organizod in the Unitod States, a complete fodcral judiciary
that can handle it, and violations of tho Taylor Grazing Act rule's will simply
be liko violations of postal rulos, violations of narcotic rulos, and othor fed-
eral rulos, and should be takon care of in tho same manner*
When tho local boards roalizo that thoy don't have enforcement natters .in
thoir hands at all, that thoy aro merely recommendatory in the administrative
meetings as divorced from enforcomont, I believe it will bo a welcome circum-
scribing of their duties and that thoy will bo able to soo more cloarly what thoy
will havo to do, and that thoy will more choorfully undortakc their duties, bo-
causo thoy will not have tho onus of the onforccmont of tho criminal lav/ upon
them* For that roason — it is now 25 minutos aftor eleven, and wo give up this
room at 11; 30 — I an going to adjourn this mooting until 1:45, and ask tho dol-
cgatos to bo promptly in thoir soats at that tino and wo will take the natter up
for discussion. Tho mooting is adjournod,
(Roooss for lunch at 11:30 AM.)
—
wr i
B -20
SECOND DAY
Afternoon Session
(Meeting called to order by Chairman F. R, Carpenter at 1:45 PM.)
We have taken lots of bad news. You have taken lots of bad news during the
year and I have takon a little, but there are two very fortunate happenings .that'
have started within the last year. One we had nothing to do with, and wo take it
as it comes, and the other ypu have all had something to do with and now you are
going to toko it as it is told to you.
The first is the rain. I know that you are all glad to have this rain and'
that it will do a Lot rf good. The second is a telegram received from the Secre-
tary this morning, about a long-mooted and debated question. Secretary Walters
is going to present that to you,
MR. WALTERS: Friends of tho western states: There was received at 12:13
o'clock this afternoon, the following telegram, addressed to mo, in response .to a
telegram which was sent 'out by me yesterday afternoon. I will read you tho tele-
gram, wh'iph is all that will be necessary, I apprehend:
"Department has held that proceeds of assessments levied on grazing licenses
by division boards are private funds and not public money."
(Applause.)
"Funds already collected may bo oxpended by the boards for purposes for
which collected if such purposes are not unlawful or in violation of departmental
regulations. Tho procedure in levying assessments, in many instances, howover
was improper and no further assessments should be made until departmental regula-
tions are issued. Harold L. Ickes, Secretary of tho Intorior."
MR. CARPENTER: Thank you, Mr. Secretary, and, thru you, wo thank Secretary
Ickes. Wo have, waited a long time f cr this. It means, gentlemen, that your
funds are roleasod. It means you can' go on spending them for the legitimate pur-
poses for which they vroro loviod. It means that there will be forthcoming very-
soon regulations that will guido you hotter in the collection of those funds in
tho future.
Tho improprieties mentioned in the tologram refer to our using franked on-
velcpes — as much of a reflection on mo as on anyone, because, in some cases,
thru mistakes, district boards used frankod envelopes to collect privato money.
That was improper. It was not dono intentionally and it is not a Class A offense
under the felony acts of tho government.
Thcso things you will have now, and also instructions regarding tho pressure
— which the Government is willing to back you up in ' — in tho denial of licenses
and so forth in tho collection of the balance. Wo will ask you not to try to
collect any of the balanco until instructions are issued, but thoy are now re-
leased, and you can go ahead and use thorn.
Now wo will proceed to business. I am roferring now to tho logally accred-
ited dolegates of 34 districts, who will take the sole part in tho discussion
before us, the privilogo of tho floor having boen accorded to all comers up to
this time. Thoro will bo a roll taken of all of the 140 dolcgatos horo present.
MR. WHINNERY OF COLORADO: I wish at this tine to yiold ny p:.aoe until our
Colorado committoo completes their general roport, then I wish to follsw thoir
report. Tho report that they are gotting now, wo are all agreed on, and I be-
lieve they aro roady to moko that roport.
■BOM
■ ni am
^r^^^PP'SPSIiPIIP
B-21
. m CARPENTER: At this tino, the Chair v,ill rulo that any further reports
fron rtitoTaHrlttooa are out of order, that the ttoe is short enough nov, that
^ rill tal-o w executive business, that all further state reports can bo filed
It the dS and bo o^nplotod in the roeord or, after the completion of our loxoou-
tivo business, v/ill bo taken up m full.
■ MR. TOIINNERY: Hoy/ about tho minority report. '? r.
MR. CARPENTER: ^ That v;ill have to bo filod nov;. Asm. havo passed those re-
ports, I take it that you v/ill not v/ish to go further into that at this tav
If it cones up in tho topics, you, beinga regularly accredited dologato, you
can speak on that topic and speak your mind.
MR. WHINNERY: Thank you.
MR. CARPENTER: Tho first topic is tho nattor of allotment of tho range. Tho
question is v/hothor wo should undertake, in tho 1936 licenses to tackle the
problem of allotment of rango. The Chair, in order to bring it to a head, v/ill
entertain a motion in regard to v/hat should be done on allotment of the range.
MR. TAYLOR OF NEW MEXICO: I offor this resolution: Rosolved that somo
rango allotment bo made in all 1936 liconsos providing nocossary information is
available for such action.
MR. CARPENTER: If you v/ill hand that to mo, I v/ill rend it thru tho "mike".
' (Mr. Taylor hands tho resolution to Mr. ,'Carpentcr.)
MR. CARPENTER: "Resolved that . somo rango allotment bo made in all 1936 li-
censes, provided necessary information is available for such action. Is that
correct, Mr. Taylor?
-MR. TAYLOR: Yos. '
MR. CARPENTER: Do I hoar a sooond to that motion?
VOICE: I socond tho motion,
«.
. MR. CARPENTER: Motion is made and seconded. Wo v/ill nov/ call for discus-
sion of this motion from tho oloctcd dolcgatos.
MR. TOBIN OF NEVADA: I v/ish to add tho amendment:' that all allotments
granted during 1936 be subject to the discretion of tho district board.
MR. CARPENTER: Tho amendment offered v/as a proviso that all allotments would
be subject to tho action of tho -district boards. I may say, in order to clarify
this, that this docs not compol the boards to moke any particular allotment, but
it doos say, and it leaves them tho judge, as to v/hothcr tho necessary informa-
tion is available, but, if the nocossary information is available, i£ v/ould re-
quire each board to talco up the matter of allotment and act on it . They might
makn only one allotment or ton, but t hoy v/ould havo to art on that natter, pro-
viding they first had sufficient info mat ion available to do so prudently. Doos
that ansv/er your '.ar.iondi.iont?
MR
. TOBIN: Tho v/ords I use arc "tho discretion of tho advisory board."
MR. CARPENTER: Ho adds that his amendment is that he v/ould mako tho grant-
ing of allotments discretionary with tho district boards, instead of requiring
tho district boards, if thoy find they havo the available information, to go, tato
the matter. Are you ready to discuss tho amendment? The Chair recognises I,r.
Cox of Utah. .
MR. TOBIN: I ariso to a point of. order. As maker of the amendment, I be-
lieve it is my right to first speak on tho amendment.
.
I
m - , man
'•-■•' I
H
B-22
MR. CARPENTER: That is correct. If you wish to do so, you nay have i that
right, right now. Will you cono up in front of tho "uiko" ploase?
It has boon called to tho Chair's attention that sono of tho dologates';
scats are occupiod by thoso who are not delegates. Will you ploaso do then tho
courtosy of vacating tho seats so the dclogatos can get their soats? Wo will
tako a short roooss until the delegates can occupy thoir proper seats,
/,
.Gontlonon, Sonator Tobin of Nevada will prosent an anondncnt to this notion,
I an going to ask him to read the notion and the onendnent, and then spook on it.
MR. TOBIN: I will read tho notion, as stated by Mr. Carpenter, that sono
range allotnent bo nado in all 1936 licenses, provided necessary information is
available for such action. Tho anendncnt I nado fron tho floor a few ninutcs ago
is as follows: that allotnents bo granted subjoct to tho discretion of the: advi-
sory board in which application is nado, .
My reason shall bo brief. I feel that the advisory boards aro bost quali-
fied to pass upon thoso allotnents. I do not boliovo it is proper for us at this
tine to nalco a blanket rulo covoring all applications for allotnents in tho vari-
ous statos which aro represented hero today. I think, as I have said already, that
the nen you have elcoted to represent you as advisory boards havo successfully
fulfilled tho job you gave then. Let's lot then carry it on and soo whether you
aro entitlod to an allotnent.
MR. CARPENTER: In order to save tino and got thoso issuos cloar, I on won-
dering if thero is an issue botweon the original notion and tho anondncnt. I an
going to ask tho senator a question and get his answer, and see if wo can got
this thing oloarly boforo us:
Do you understand tho original notion to be such that tho Board is deprived
of thoir discrotionary powor in granting or withholding individual allotments?
MR. TOBIN; In naking my anondnont, gontlonon, it was with tho intention of
clarifying tho original notion. I for one would bo vailing to withdraw my anend-
ment, and tho other nan who nado tho othor -notion withdraw his, and incorporaxo
in ono, if it is agreeable to you all.
■i.
MR. CARPENTER: Would you like to wait and redraft tho anondnont, putting it
all into this fom, or do you wish to wait and subnit it as an anondnont to the
original instead?
MR. TOBIN: It would bo satisfactory to ne to withdraw both notion and anond-
ncnt , '
MR. CARPENTER: Can you rodraft the notion right now?
MR, TOBIN: Yes*
MR. CARPENTER: At this tine, wo will procoed with the debato on tho anond-
nent, and tho Senator will rodraft it. Will tho consent of tho nan fron Now Mex-
ico bo granted to such a procedure?
MR. TAYLOR OF NEW MEXICO: I don«t know until I know what ho proposos to
bring out.
MR. CARPENTER: I will ask Sonator Tobin and Mr. Taylor to sit down together
ani rodraft that anondnont. In ordor to save tino, whilo that is going on, wo
will proceed to another .topic. Maybo wo will want sono resolutions drafted on
another topic. The next topic is tho natter of the division of dependent proper-
ties — division into classes, whereby thoso within or' on tho fringe of tho dis-
trict arc in one class, and thoso not within tho fringe of a district arc in a
junior class.
-
ijil Li |u^vr! if i.^ii^uuli i^i.^p^^^wp
B -23
MR. CHRISTENSEN OF CALIFORNIA: Last night, in our discussions with rcfcr-
onco to dopondcnt propcrtios within or near, or contiguous to a district, wo
thought, for tho host intorosts of thoso who uso the public domain, that tho word
"contiguous" nay bo a littlo nis construing and wo would rathor havo thoso within
or near d district. Wo havo thought about it a good doal since, and. our cbnnit-
too offors tho prosont resolution: ,
Resolved: That dopondont proportios be soparatcd into thoso within or near
a district and thoso not so noar a district.
MR. CARPENTER: Do I hoar a second?
VOICE: Read that again ploaso.
i
: i
MR. CHRISTENSEN: Rosolvod, that depondont proportios bo soparatcd into thoso
within or noar a district, and those not so near a district.
MR. DORRIS OF CALIFORNIA: Socond the notion-
MR. BRAY OF COLORADO: That night bo all right, but wo would havo to have in
that a oustonary usage. If property in ono district has been usod as commensu-
rate, in another district it certainly will havo to be near — not nearest, but
noar anyway. Wo can't subnit to driving out of Utah 200,000 head of sheep in tho
wintor. In Colorado, wo havo non who havo wondorful ranches and commensurate
property; that proporty should havo to bo usod just tho sano as if it was in
Utah. I an doubtful that Utah has onough connensurato proporty to take care of
that livo stock. \
MR. CARPENTER: Before wo go further with tho nerits of this question, I
wish to raiso tho ono of forn. Do you think this is in the right forn to bo con-
sidered, • or would you like a connittco to redraft this littlo informal resolution
to bring it straight beforo us 2
VOICE: It should be rodraftod.
MR. CARPENTER: Tho Chair trill ask Mr. Christcnson of California and Mr.
McFarlano of Utah to redraft that resolution to fairly prosont it to tho assembly.
MR. CECIL OF OREGON: On behalf of tho Qrogon delegation, I wish to nako the
following motion* Rosolvod, that further and more definite definitions of con-
nonsurato property be nado.
MR. CARPENTER: Lot's soe if I can quote that corroctly. Mr. Cecil, on this
topic of further and nore definite definitions of commensurate property, has
inovod that further and- nor o dofinitc definitions of connonsurato proporty bo
nade. Is that correct, Mr. Cocil?
MR. CECIL: Yes.
GENTLEMAN FROM CALIFORNIA: I second tho motion.
' c MR. CARPENTER: Is thoro any point about the form of tUiis notion, or is it
clear onough to properly bring it up 1 It would seen that this is very clearly
put. That docs not raiso tho question as to hew you will dofino it, but just
sinply that it is desired that further and nore dofinite definitions of commensu^
rate property bo nado. Pending tho bringing in of the other two resolutions, to
bring tho natter beforo the dclogatos, wo will take up tho quostion, which is
now boforo tho houso, that furthor and nore definite definitions of commensurate
proporty should be nado. Wo tail hoar re-narks on that question.
MR. LEE OF IDAHO: That is an answer to quostion No. 5?~~
MR. CARPENTER: Is it, Mr. Cocil?
■
B-24
MR. CECIL* Yos.
MR. C/RFENTER: Yes. Docs anyone wish to ncikc any romarks for or gainst
tho further defining and making more definite of what is comnonsurtttc property?
MR FRANCIS OF UTAH; On tho "natter of furthor defining, it. hus been brought
before our attention in our Board, and perhaps in yours, the nabtor of whether
forest permits shall bo considered as conmonsurato property. I don t soo it
listed hero and I think porhaps wo should have a discussion on it.
MR. CARPENTER: Tho natter of whether forest pemits, or base used for
forest permits, should bo considered as commensurate property --should this re-
solution not pass, it would not bo necessary to consider that, In an assemblage
of this kind, Mr. Francis, and with the limited tine we have, it would seem to me
that the matter of forost permits as connonsurato property, and basis used^for
forest pemits as commensurate property, the only reasonable way v/c can get at it .
is to have a drafting committee and consider closo study by a small body of men.
Our idea is that, when the Division of Gracing has drafted as noar as they can
along tho outlines as put on this program, that it would then bo submitted to the
adviLry boards for criticism. I fool, in a meeting of this kind to open up on
forest permits would not, get us. anywhere. We are no roly dealing ^h the ^oad
principle. Do you want us to work out a fair basis for forest permits olonfe with
ether things? Would that bo the wishes of this assembly, and not go into detail?
I fool it would got us into a long discussion and really we cou.d not button it
up" when wo wore thru.
MR. WRTMERY: In viow of what you have just said, I believe that our chair-
man here, Mr. Pitchforth, should go out with the committee you just sent out -
Mr. McFarlano and Mr. Christenson - as we are doubly interested in that very
question, and it would probably save time by hin being out there and satisfy this
group of men or anyono that ho nay designate.
MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Whinnory of Colorado asked for tho courtesy which con^
only bo extended with tho unanimous approval of the house. Is there rny opposi-
tion to Mr. Pitchforth boing added to the committee? (No objections). If .not,
it is so ordered, and v/c will ask Mr. Pitchforth to retire with that committee.
VOICE: Would it bo right at this tine that we begin to define connonsurato
proporty — to go into tho geographical relationship of it?
MR*' CARPENTER: That would cone undor tho distances of dependent property
and not undor this.
Are thoro any furthor ronarks on this resolution?
MR. TOBIN: I am speaking on ny original amendment. If I am in order at the
present tine, I withdraw the -amendment. I understand that we havd a substitute
motion. '
MR. CARPENTER: Would it be with your consont, Senator, that we finish tho
one we. are new considering and then cemo right back to yours? Arc there any
further remarks on the necessity for further defining and making more definite
what commonsurato property is?
MR. LEE OF NOT MEXICO: Isn't that a rathor complicated question for this
body to determine at this time? Connonsurato property in one state nay noo. have
the same value as it has in some other state. We in Now Mexico, of course, con-
sider that water has tho highest commonsurability, and that the other ocwuui«
ability mus* be joined or connocted with that ownership. So what fits Colorado,
Montana and Utah might not fit New Mexico or Arizona. I hope you will bear that
in mind.
w
!
B-25
MR. CARPENTER: That is correct. In Colorado, in gonoral, v/horo I lived in , ,
t ho fountains, water would havo no valuo at all, and, in Nov/ Moxico, cultivatod
food would havo no value. Tho idea v/as that this Y/ould "bo an oxprossion from- tho
assembled dolcgatos of tho district advisory boards, that they desire, bofdrci they
start thoir deliberations ovor lioonscs, that they would liko a littlo bettor de-
finition of pormanont v/ator in Now Mexico, and a littlo hotter dofinition of feed
and other classos of proporty — mako then a littlo moro sharply -dofincd and lcnov/ '..;
the valuo Of each of then. Wo aro not going to go into v/hat thoy are or hov/ to
do it, but, if it is tho dosiro of the district advisory boards, as I undorstood
fron my mooting v/ith thorn, that thoy v/antod those things mado noro dofinito and
pooplo v/antod to buy this proporty if they roally know v/hat to. buy. It is only
fair to thorn, bocauso they might be put out' of business if thoy don't -get it, or
thtfy night got tho v/rong kind of property.
It -would in no way put a difforcnt kind of proporty into a difforont state.
Fron tho so ton statos, and fron thOso definitions, tho district boards v/ould pick
out tho onos that apply in thoir districts and only those. For instanco, :tho ncv/
circular, if this rosolution passos, will havo a noro dofinito definition of; ton-
porary or permanent water. -It v/ill ,also havo a bettor dofinition of food put up |
and food purchasod, food v/hich is actually fed and food which is raised and not
fed. Cash crops v/cro thrown into tho hopper last year. That v/as obviously un-
fair, but it v/as duo to tho fact that our definitions v/oro not vory procisc., •«•
If this rosolution oarrios, you v/ill havo a noro dofinito set of definitions
of tho various kinds of connensurato property. Tho Boards v/ill thoroforo tako
out that circular and uso tho onos applicablo to thoir districts in passing on
applications. Any furthor ronarks on tho nccossity for furthor definitions of
connonsurato proporty? Aro you roady for tho question?
VOICE: Do v/o undorstand you novr, in view cf v/hat floor connont there is
horo, that, boforo v/o board nombors attonpt to define in individual cases, v/o
v/ill got a regulation fron your offico?
MR. CARPENTER: Tho question v/as v/hcthcr the districts v/ould undorstand, if
this passod, that thoy v/ould not pass on 1936 licenses until thoy had noro dofi-
nito dofinitions. And that is oxactly right. A passing of this resolution v/ill
moan you aro dissatisfiod to go another yoar v/ith Circular 2 as it v/as issuod and
you v/ant something to go a stop further to uso in your deliberations.
MR. DORRIS OF CALIFORNIA: Ovor in our state, v/o aro a litflc bit difforcntly
situatod than any othor part of the Unitod Statos. Wo aro in a high altitudo and
our dopondont ]roporVy is v/hat v/o aro producing, v/hich v/o can only market v/ith
v/hat livestock v/o havo. For that reason, it is dopondont connonsurato proporty
v/o shall stand on in our country. It is not dependent upon tho rango just to
raiso our stock in tho sumnor so v/o can got them off our ranches long enough to
harvost our crops and bring thorn in and market those crops v/hich v/o raiso thru
our livo stock, so our commensurate proporty is very much diffcront from v/hat it
is in Arizona,
It is dopondont upon that rango or v/o oanTt nalco a go of it and that is tho
only way v/o can markot tho produco which wo raiso in our country,. This is for
northorn California*
MR." CARPENTER: Any noro ronarks boforo tho quostion is submitted? I v/ill
first call for a voico voto, thon, if thcro is any dosiro for a poll, oach dis-
trict advisor duly accroditod will bo polled and his voto rocorded.
Tho so in favor of tho resolution that further and noro definite dofinitions
of connonsurato proporty should bo made, will signify by saying "ayo"...
Thoso opposod, tho samo sign. ..... .The "ayes" havo it unaninously.
I will ask Mr* Tobin to speak on the ncv/ rosolution that ho and Mr. Taylor
have agreed upon.
J.J_J!!ftJJU>u u~m>±*=
4.
.
« 4
B-26
ttp TORTW. I havo asked permission to withdraw ny anondncnt. Wo have '
sssrs..' f «—«t *»«*» .,pii*tio» ■». -d... ,
Mr. Chairuan, I novo its adoption.
MR TAYLOR: I nay bo hanging on toohnicalitios, but I think I should prop-
erly %$£** formor noticed present the substitute notion.
HE; CARPENTER: If thoro is no objection, it will bo ordered that way. :
VOICE: I second tho notion.
m. CARPENTER: Motion is nado and see ended j^^'^^£f s^ay_
bo nado in all 1936 lioonsos to individuals, P^JwL^rtTSt prov£din6
Advisory Boards whon application is nado.
IE.
BURSEY OF UTAH: I thinlc that "oonnunitios" should bo added in thoro.
' MR. CARPIMER, I -y say. gentlonon as to who you ^ «™ * ™°£
tern pornit to, is governed by the to™ ^Vetunlificd person " andlthat
plification, that it ^P WW b ^ ^ybedy else tha't was qualified. I
IIS SSffl^fe^S^ -a? o/foct would be arable to to,
MR. TOBIH: That part of tho resolution I had nothing to do vdth. I will >
ask Mr. MoFarlano if ho has any objoetions. j
1IR. McFARLANE: Would that cover it under tho original Act?
■MR. CARPENTER: If thoy aro qualified users, yos.
MR; McFARLANE: If the original Act would cover grazing ■^^^aa' l
don't think I havo any objections to having that part of it withdraw.
MR CARPENTER- Then I will chanEo "individuals, partnerships or corpora-
allotnonts.
is a qualified pomittoo in tho state.
MR. CARPENTER: In other words, you would say the v^rd Honorary" should bo
usod in there, until wo eono to a permanent allotnont.
MR. DORRIS: Yos.
MR. CARPENTER: I
Taylor? .'
MR. TAYLOR: As far as I an conccrnod
thinlc that is proper. Would that bo okay with you, Mr
^UmM
;
B -27
VOICE: Suppose that is changed tc "qualified applicants" instead of P quali-
fied persons"?
MR. CARPENTER: I think that is a good point. Would the word "temporary"
suit vou, Mr. Taylor? I will do a little drafting and see if wo got „his right.
The resolution now reads as follows: "That somo temporary rango allotnonts nay
ho nado in all 1936 liconsos to qualifiod applicants, providing necessary^ infoma-
tion is available for such action, and subject to discretion of advisory boards
v/hon application is submitted."
MR. OLIVER LEE OF NEW MEXICO: Would you mind reading tho resolution again,
vory slowly, so we can got tho full sonso?
MR. CARPENTER: "Rosolvod , that sono tonporary rango allotnonts nay bo
nado in all 1936 licenses to qualifiod applicants, providing necessary information
is available for such action, and subject to discretion of Advisory Boards when
application is subnittod."
MR. OLIVER LEE: .Pardon no. I think tho word "sono" should be stricken.
MR. CARPENTER: If thoro is no' objection, wo will not chango any wording at
this tino. Wo will just disouss tho notion.
MR. DORRIS OF CALIFORNIS: -Just one word, that is "qualifiod applicants". It
nirht bo that tho advisory board would fool like a nan that was not qualifiod to
got a permanent permit should bo allowed a permit for this year, or temporary
liconso. I would not wont to bo tiod to that.
MR. CARPENTER: This is a "qualified applicant", not a qualified preference
permittee, and everybody is a qualified applicant that is a citizen or. declares
his intention to become such.
I will road this again: "That some temporary range allotments may bo nado
in all 1936 licenses to qualifiod applicants, providing necessary infornation is
available for such action, and subject to discretion of Advisory Boards when ap-
plication is subnittod."
MR. OLIVER LEE OF NEW MEXICO: I move that tho resolution bo amondod by sub-
stituting tho word "shall" for "somo".
MR. CARPENTER: The amendment is offered that, instead of reading that "some
temporary range allotments may be made", that "somo temporary allotments shall bo
mado". Is that corroct? Do I hoar a socond to the amendment?
VOICE: Second.
MR. CARPENTER: Aro you roady to debate on tho amondnont change, which is to
change tho word "may" to "shall".
MR. REDD OF UTAH : If wo chango tho word "may" to "shall", it will destroy
or nullify to somo extent tho discretionary powors that wo also grant tho Board,
so, in this particular rospoct, I think it should stand as it is.
MR. CARPENTER: Wo have onough to go ovor. I am going to ask that all dis-
cussion on tho motions bo limited to two minutes each. Would that bo with your
wishos?
MR. TOBIN: Tho chair nood not bo afraid that I will tako up vory much
time.' I agree with the gentleman from Utah. I consider that the amondnont pro-
posed would destroy tho intont of tho resolution. I sincerely hope tho gentleman
from Now Moxico will roalizo that and kill tho amondmont.
MR. McFARLANB: I would liko to see that word "sono" cut out entirely, bo-
causo I think it woakens it#
-—
B-28
MR. CARPENTER: Point of order. You will confine yourself to the notion^
MR. OLIVER LEE OF MEW MEXICO: I an afraid you got nixod up on ny nnondnont.
It was the , word "sono" that I objocted to,
i
MR. CARPENTER: I will road tho resolution again: "Resolved that sono tem-
porary rango allotnents nay bo nado in all 1956 licenses to qualified applicants
providing necessary infornation is available for such action, -and subject to the
discretion of AdvSory Beards when application is nado." The **^J%^°
change that "nay" to "shall", and wo will confine our remarks to that anondncnt.
MR. OLIVER LEE: Pardon no; I don't object to tho word "nay" but I object to"
tho word' "some"-, which is indofinito.
MR. CARPENTER: You wish tho word "sono" stricken, and you wish to withdraw
vour forncr anondnont.
* ' . i; ;
MR. OLIVER LEE: Yos, as it is understood.
MR. CARPENTER: With tho consent of tho house, Mr. Loo mil withdraw his
fomor anondraont, and suggest a change reading as fellows: "That temporary range
Sm lo nado",Gwith no "sono" in it. Now, what do you say? Quo at ion
is en the anondnont to take tho "sono" out. Are you ready for tho question? All
those in favor of talcing the "sono" out, vote "aye" "^"^^ ^
sign (one opposed) In the absence of a request for division, tho
"sono" will bo takon out.
MR. REDD; OF UTAH: I novo to further anend by striking tho last four words
of the notion. If you will read the notion with tho last four words eliminated,
I think it. will be sinplcr and noro cloar,
MR. CARPENTER: The anondod ro solution roads as f ollows : "That temporary
range "allotnents my bo nade in all 1936 licenses to qualified W^^' Pro-
viding necessary infornation is available for such action, and sub3.ct to the
discretion of Advisory Boards, when application is nade." Those are ^o four
disputed words:, "when application is § nado." The notion of Mr. Rodd is to strike
tho words, "whoh application is nado."
I will now read tho notion as.it would read with those four words onitted:
"That temporary range allotnents nay bo nado in all 1936 licenses to qualified
apSc^ts, priding necessary infornation is available for sueh action and
subject to discretion of Advisory Boards" period. Any discussion on that.
MR. TOBIN: I would liko to ask the gontlonan fron Utah, thru the Chair, his
purposo in his anendnorit.
MR. CARPENTER: Tho Chair will ask Mr. Redd to explain the purposo of his
anondncnt.
MR. REDD: I thought it was a short cut and would save asking Mr. Tobin tho
question of tho necessity for the words in tho first place.
MR. CARPENTER: I wish to say to tho senator fron Nevada that, when you talk
about resolutions, you want to know your stuff.
MR. TOBIN: I ask that tho Chair bo authorized to cast tho necessary veto.
MR. CARPENTER: The Chair has strickon out the four last words, and will
road the resolution, which, with your consent, will be presented now for Aobato.
"That tenporary range allotnents nay be nade in all 1936 licenses to qualified
appfioS providing necessary infornation is available for such act -n and
subject to the discretion of Advisory Boards." Any ^rth°Yr WifXr sa -
the question? All those in favor of tho resolution as anondod, signify b„ say
ing "ayo" Opposod, sane sign (none opposod) Carried.
The Chair will now ask Mr. Christenson to report. Will you cone up to the
"niko", Mr. Christonsen, plcaso.
_
?■
B-29
MR. CHRISTEN SEN: Wo did not chango our original notion. Wo amondod it with
a littlo addition. I will road the entiro notion at tho prosont tmo:. "Rcsolvod
that dopondent proportios bo scparatod into thoso within or near a district and
thoso not so noar tho district, with first proforenco to bo given to tho owner of
land and livestock whoso ownership depends on tho use of public lands adjacent to
his proporty and who has had sufficient prior uso,11
MR. CARPENTER: Any socond to that notion? I call your attention to tho
fact that this notion goos a stop' further, and goes to zoning within districts.
MR. BRAY OF COLORADO: Wo arc not altogether satisfied with tho now notion.
To got away fron this "noar,, nearer, noarost" businoss, I would like to make this
as a substitute notion: that noithor district nor stato linos shall be consid-
ered in determining connensurato property, and that only custorary past uso bo
considorcd. (Applause.)
f • •
MR. CARPENTER: You havo heard tho amendment • Is thofo a sooond to tho
V ill'
ar.iondnont? x^. .
■.'
VOICE: Second.
1.21. CARPENTER: Wo will hoar remarks on the anendnent, which is that stato
linos will bo disregarded and nothing considered but custonary uso.
MR. BRAY: Tho roason that I nadc that' notion, I had a groat deal of experi-
ence in helping draw those district linos. Stato linos, county lines, and imagi-
nary lines, coning up otornally. Wc woro assured that the district linos would
only bo temporary and, with this assuranco, wo consented to uso stato linos. Ifow
if wo had had our way about it, wo would havo taken in tho eastern part of Utafr
in our district, and would havo boon glad to, but wo did not havo our way. Nov;
the stato lino is tho district lino. Tho connonsurato property lies in Colorado.
To got this connonsurato property used whoro it has boon in tho habit of 'being
used is tho purpose of ny notion. (Applause.)
MR. REDD: I an opposod to tho notion. I bolicvo you gcntloncn will agroo
that, if this notion provails, the intent of the Act itself will be nullified.
I i-cnind you of 'Soction 3 of tho Act. It is true tho passage of this resolution
will allow tho porsistenco of past practicos, but ronenbor the Act was passod to
correct bad practicos, practicos that woro unfair to the pcoplo who happened to
livo adjacent or on tho range. Wo have not hoard one statement fron tho gcntlo-
nan fron Colorado in opposition to tho statements made yostorday about Grant and
San Juan countios. Our land and irrigation v/ator is very limited. Wo aro dopond-
ing entirely upon this winter range. It is true, if Eastern Utah was included
with Wostorn Colorado, thoy, ovor there, at tho foot of tho Rookies, with thoir .
plentiful water and nico ranches and forest per. tits, would have an idoal sot-up.
They havo got tho summer rango and have got the ranches. But what aro you
going to do 'with tho towns of Monticcllo, etc. Thoy aro out on tho doscrt
almost liko old oows or broon-tailod horses around Alkali Springs. Tho only
chanco thoy have got to nako a halfway doccnt living is to have tho first call
on this.
I can say this to you: Wo do have noro winter rango in Eastern Utah than
tho ranch proporty or tho connonsurato -property will qualify or wo can use, but,
to tho oxtont that wo can uso it, to tho extent that our pooplo do roquirc it, wo
insist that the Act itsolf must bo followed.
If this amendment provails, it will bo a terrible thing. This meeting would
break up a half of them, or nearly half of then at least would go hone bitterly
disappointod. Wo would bocomc confronted with suit after suit.
Sinco wo arc so dividod in tho interpretation or tho understanding of thoso
mattors, I boliovo wo should not bind tho advisory committoos too strongly, bc-
causo wo can't agroe on definitions. Since 'the advisory committees are just about
as capablo of doto mining this as it soens this body is, why not lot thorn intor-
prct their actions and bo'guidod by Soction 3, and lcavo this matter to tho dis-
cretion of the advisory boards, at loast for tho noxt yoar.
B-30
BR*. TOBIN: I approciato tho position token by Mr. Redd and, in^ordor to^as-
'sist hin in his apparont troublos/ I propose .on anondmont to tho notion. I trill
ask that tho gontlcnan road tho resolution again.
MR. BRAY: "That neither district nor state linos shall bo considorod in de-
termining connonsurato property, and that only customary past uso he considered.
MR. TOBIN: I propose tho following amendment., Add: Subjoct to tho discre-
tion of tho Advisory Boards. ■
.. > 'i
MR. CHRISTENSHSs I will only offer a few remarks. Our original notion and
the addition that wo offered — wo have in mind to attempt to protoct tho llttlo
ranch ovmcr v/ho noods tho public domain adjacent to his farm lands, a man that is
too seldom roprcsontcd in the so kind of mootings, and vihoso needs aro too seldom
oxprossod. So I personally would like to sco this accopted as offcrod at tho
pro sent tamo, without any arAondmonts.
MR. COX OF UTAH: It scorns to mo that wo aro placing so many anonclnonts that
it is becoming confusing within tho minds of a lot of delegatos in attendance and
also, in my opinion, wo aro still passing tho buck on to tho next follow. V/o arc
passing tho buck right down to the advisory boards again and leaving them to
stand tho brunt of ill-fooling of tho pooplo within tho district, and I am hoart-
ily in favor of putting tooth into this, as Mr-. Carpenter stated this morning,
and making it so that wo will havo somothing definite to go by, and I would liko
to soo theso rules and regulations read so that there will bo some cloar defini-
tions and some cloar understandings by which the advisory boards in tho respec-
tive districts might pass on applications.
So far as concerns tho "within, and noar-nearor-noarcstn onondnont , I am
hoartily in favor that the commonsurato proporty within tho district havo tho
proforonco.
MR. CARPENTER: Wo aro now dobating whethor district and state linos bo son-
• sidorod, or only customary uso.
MR. OLIVER LEE OF NEW HEXICO: It seems to me that, up to tho present timo,
that the most object ionablo featuro of the substitute resolution, wo aro overlook-
ing tho fact that, if this substitute resolution offorod should pass, wo have do-
. stroyod tho valuo of all commonsurato proporty.
Wo of Wow Moxico, of courso, place a groat doal of valuo on property right,
but wo donTt go so far as to say that priority should bo considered without it is
attachod to commonsurato proporty". Wow, if this substituto resolution passes,
then you havo dostroyod. all commonsurato property, and it is absolutoly contra-
dictory to tho spirit and word of tho Taylor Grazing Act.
MR. 'LEE OF IDAHO: Idaho didn't think it would havo to say anything on this
quostion, but wo gavo considerable thought to this and had tho brightest minds
.of Idaho, as woll as tho practical stoclxien of that district on this particular
question. Wo would liko to road our recommendation again: /
Resolved; by tho stockmen of Idaho: that, whoro a. man bo doterminod as a
Class A applicant, undor Subdivision A of Section 1, that such right bo rooog-
•nized in contiguous or adjacent districts, it having boon spocifically understood
that stato boundaries and stato linos would; not jeopardize tho customary uso of
the rango.
MR. McFARLANE OF UTAH: In adding to that resolution the part that wo bo-
liovo that preference rights should bo given to pooplo running livestock and
owning ground within tho rango district, and should havo tho first proforonco
right whoro ho had the prior use.
That is only to protoct the small ranchor. It is not going to interfere
with shoep coming from Colorado to Utah or from Utah into Novada, or Idaho into
SH«5I
~-~
B-31
Utah. It is just to givo that protoction. I want to say that the first resolu-
tion that was offered that formed the Taylor Bill, )cnn\/n then as tho Coltdn Bill,
wrs that wo bolioved tho first proforence right should bo givon to tho pooplo
living in tho rango district, and that right should ronairi with tho community.
Just lil:o tho water with tho land. . . ,
Vro wantod to got away fron tho Practice of vihat tho forest servico had in-
augurated, and this is not goinG to interfere, with any of your rights, with any
of your proforenco right, unless you aro one of those nomads or those follows
that run all over the country.
I think that you poople all fool that we ouGht to protect those snail1
ranchers who have lived in tho ranGo country, and that is why vro added that part
to the resolution, , •
MR. VrfLLX/jiS OF UTAH: I arise to support the oriGinal notion and render ny
opposition to tho substitute for this reason. Hr. i.cFc.rlane has stated to you
we have cone hero to try to livo up to and carry out tho intent and the purposes
of the Taylor Grazing Act. It tells ne, in these vrords, that, as long as there
are plenty raises available, then it is administered to all, but in case of range
shcrtare, then it tells ne that those nearest in point of distance and accessi-
bility shall be Given preference, and that is what I believe in, and that is what
I an going to support. ,
2fR. DORRIS OF CALIFORHIA: I would lilce to second the statement of this last
speaker.
I.IR. TOBIIT.OF NTHTADA: Fron the remarks made a few minutes ago by sone of the
members "here, that old buGaboo is raised up again, about the "big guy" gobbling
up the little fellow. I am on a board. Ve passed on 515 applications, had pos-
sibly fivo or si:: appeals, and took care of all those appeals ourselves to the
satisfaction of the person that was appealing. I move, at this tine, that the
notion nade by the gentleman fron Colorado, which I understood as a substitute,
be made the original notion.
1.31. CARP3HTER: Are you ready for the question? Are you ready to vote on
the question that tho substitute be made the oriGinal notion, that district and
state lines be disregarded and that prior use only be considered? Do you wish
more discussion?
MR. COX OF UTAH: It seens to ne that this is simmering down to policies
that you ordinarily find in a poker game. The gentleman fron Nevada stated
that they passed on 300 applications in their district. I rn.ll raise the ante.
In our district, vre passed on nearly 900 applications. In passing on those ap-
plications, vro kept within the spirit and intent of the original Taylor Bill _
and following the regulations that Vrore issued for temporary license, and I wish
to make this statement, that I believe that ninety percent of the
applicants that received their licenses were satisfied with the way we passed on
then.
MR. MATHIS OF ARIZONA:' I an opposed to this substitute notion beconing an
original notion. I feel we should support the original notion. If we go baok
to this substitute notion, we are throwing away a year's work. We are going
rirht back to where we were when this bill was created. We are defeating the
purpose of the bill. That is what has killed the range. We are going back to
"dog-eat-dog". Wo have already done that until this country is killed out.
This Taylor Act was framed to protect us,. ana I .an in favor of the original
notion. I call for tho question on the notion.
MR. FRATCIS OF UTAH: I am opposed to the substitute notion for this reason,
that I think it conflicts with the past policy we have adopted under Policies.
Vie put connensurate property above'prior usej now vro cone bad:, and, under the
substitute notion, wish to put prior use over that of commensurate property
within tho. district. For that reason, I am opposed to the substitute notion.
— -I
'■sat
"fPH
B-32
MR. HUTTON OF LONTANA: I simply wish to state that, if you pass this substi-
tute motion, you absolutely kill our district.
MR. CARPENTER: Are you ready 'for the question? The question will be on the
substitute motion to disregard state and district lines and observe customary use
subject to the discretion of the Board. Only the delegates, trill vote. Those in
favor vail signify by saying "aye" Opposed, the same sign The no's
have it. Do you wish a division. We will poll the delegates if 'you wish a divi-
sion, and vote — each man one vote.
If thore is no request for a division, the substitute motion is filled and
we will proceed to consideration of the original motion, which I will reread.
Resolved, that dependent properties be separated into those within or near a
district and those not so near the district, with -first preference to be given
to the owner of land and livestock whose ownership depends on the use of public
-lands adjacent to his property and who has had sufficient prior use.
MR. TOBIN: I move another amendment. Strike out the period on the last line
and add the following: Subject to the discretion of the Advisory Board. ._,
MR, CARPKHTBR: The amendment is offered that the addition of the words,
"subject to the discretion of the advisory boards" be added. Is there a discus-
sion on that amendment?
Are you ready for the question? Those in favor of adding "subjeot to the
discretion of the" Advisory Board" -will signify by saying "aye"........ Those op-
posed the same sign I will read the motion again, then I will read the ad-
dition which is proposed as an amendment.
The motion is: "Resolved, that dependent properties be soparated into those .
within or near a district and those not so near the district, with first prefer-
ence to be f/iven to the owner of land and livestock whose ownership depends. on%
tho ,.use of public lands adjacent to his property and who has had sufficient prior
use."
The amendment is: "subject to the discretion of the local Board."
VOICE: I'would like to have this undorstood, that only qualified men have a
right to vote.
MR. CARPENTER: Only qualified delegates have a right to vote. Do you wish,
the delegates polled? The Chair will call for a revote.
VOICE: I propose that you havo them stand so they can be identified.
MR. CARPENTER: That is a good suggestion. Those in favor of the amendment
adding the words "subject to the discretion of the local Board will stand*.'....
Those opposed to the amendment trill stand.....
VOICE- I would like to ask you if we knew what we were voting on. I want
to know whether we were putting teeth in the law or taking it away. I think when
we add that "subject to the discretion of the Advisory Board , we are taking tho
teeth out of the law.
MR. CARPENTER: Did you all understand that when you voted?
.SEVERAL VOICES: Call for another vote.
MR. TOBIN: So long as tho opinion is to ask for another vote, I wish to ask
for another discussion..
" ;
B-33
MR. CARPENTER: I will read the original motion and the amendment, then call
on Senator Tobin for his remarks. "Resolved that dependent properties bo sepa-
rated into those within or near a district and those not so near the district,
With first preference to be given to the owner of land and livestock, whose own-
ership depends on the use of public lands adjacent to his property and who has
had sufficient prior use." The amendment was to add the words, subject to ) the
discretion of the advisory board". ,
MR. TOBIK: Speaking upon the amendment, I don't believe there is a man
within the sound of my voice but what has had his application passed on by the
local members of the Advisory Ward. You wore satisfied. You elected those
men to pass on your application because you knew they were familiar with your
conditions that existed in your country.
Therefore, why not let him continue. Go ahead and kill this amendment if
you want to, but I am going to toll you the advisory board is going to loathe
confidence that they have m you, and you are showing that you have lost the con-
fidence you placed in your advisory board*
MR NIELSGK OF UTAH: I riso to support the amendment, I think we have al-
ready p-ranted you riust what you have asked for. These advisory boards all along
the line have considered, as the first Class A applicants, the men who lived
within the district.
Mr. Carpenter reported that only 2& or 3 percent came back on the appeals,
that were dissatisfied. I think we have conceded to the wishes of these men who
live within the district, given them what they have asked for.. •
V/e are ready and willing to recognize them as Class A applicants coming
ahead of the rest of us, Yihat more do you want?
MR. mCftiTCRY: A good many of us have been asking for a little bit more
power as advisory board members. Every move of this kind increases the powers
that we have and the recognition it has given us. 1 can't see any harm - m
fact, I think it is a good thing to support the amendment.
MR. WYATT OF COLORADO; This morning, it was the consensus of opinion among
these delegates that home rule prevail. Some of them have apparently changed _
their ideas since the morning session. Why take the control away from the advi-
sory board now if, this morning, they wanted it. I don't tnmk that some of the
p-entlemon who voted against the amendment realize what they are voting on. 11
we are going to have home rule, why tie the hands of the advisory board?
MR. GARDNER OF UT#I : In Circular 2, did you have it Written there "subject
to tho discretion of the advisory board"? Wasn't it understood. Didn't we act
on those applications according to Circular 2? If Circular 5 comes out do we
need to have that tacked on there? Isn't it subject to the discretion of the
advisory board without those additional words?
MR. MBDLIHi I am the man that asked you if you knew what you were voting
on. The Taylor Act has given us something to fight this with, a law that we can
eo by, and, if we had those words on there, "at the discretion of the advisory
boards", it is going to leave it up to us to decide that ourselves and, other-
wise, if it is mandatory, you can say that "you can't come in if there is no room
for vou": if there is room, we aro going to lot them in anyway. Kr. Carpentei
said" there were only 2* percent of the people not satisfied. If they are not en-
titled to go in there, we are not going to let them in, and we have the authority
to do it with.
MR. LEE OF IDAHO: I have always been informed that these rules and regula-
tions wore going to give us fellows from the west some latitude and considera-
tion. There is just one man that can get hurt in any rules and regulations t at
we make here, and that is the bona fide stockman who has put his lifetime in male-
ing a set-up to run stock.
■ J •
B-34
In the state of Idaho, the district already in and both districts in contem-
plation, the "boys pass thru in tvro or three districts, they have had this sot-up
two or throe years, vrhat we call a 12-months set-up, they trail back thru one and
into another district for their summer range.
Vie feol, in Idaho, that we know those conditions and xn aro not afraid -to
take the responsibility of passing on those fellows and aJ liocat.-Jng them into the
class that they belong to. This morniiig, it was the intention a-11 the tome to
pass this back to these boards. So far as we arc concerned, in the management of
the public domain, if we keep as much power as xre con at home, we are able to
solve these problems to the best advantage.
On all tho applications, as you said here, these boards passed on them, and
97$ of them were right and fair. These conditions that seem to af.fect these peo-
ple in Utah and Arizona, that thoy are talking about jockeying for the advantage
of one or the other in those districts, don't apply to our districts up there,
but we do feel that we don't want anybody in Arizona or New I'exico or Utah to make
an arbitrary rule that is going to tell this advisory board up in Idaho who we
shall recognizo and who wo shall not.
Wo are anxious that everybody shall be fairly treated but, on the other hand
xre don't believe there is a man that uses this range, and was using it before the
Taylor Bill was passed, that his investment should be jeopardized by any rule
that is made to fit any particular country. We feel very strongly about it and I
don't believe there is any man in this delegation here that would want to oast
any reflection on himself by acknowledging, before this bunch, that he was not
able to pass intelligently on any application that was brought before him.
Idaho is in favor of this amendment, for the reason that xre feel we are more
capable, have more knowledge, understand conditions, know the applicants person-
ally, and we have more ability to pass on those than anybody else within the
western states.
- MR. CARPENTER: The Chair will restate the question to be sure that everyone
understands it, then, with your consent, it will be put to a vote. The question
is whether we will add the words "in the discretion of the local boar^. ' to this
resolution that was originally introduced:
"Resolved' that dependent properties be separated into thoso within or near a
district and those not" so near the district, | with first preference to be given to
the owner of land and livestock whose ownership depends on the use of public lands
adjacent to his property and who has had sufficient prior use,"
And the amendment adds: "subject to the discretion of the local Board."
Those in favor of the amendment to add those four words will signify by say-
ing "aye" .Those opposed signify by the same sign
I will first take a rising vote on the division.
MR. TAYLOR OF NEW MEXICO: Point of information. Would adoption of this
amendment stop any right of appeal above the advisory board?
MR. CARPENTER: No. It would have no effect on that. All those in favor of
this amendment will rise.
VOICE: One question, Mr. Carpenter. Without those words, would that power
bo taken array from the advisory board?
MR. CARPENTER: No. It would not make the slightest /iiffsrence.
(Count is made by IJr. Carpenter of those standing for the rising vote.)
MR. CARPENTER: Bo seated. Those opposed to the amendment stand. (Count is
made.) Be seated. Tho amendment is lost — vote is 82 to 54* (Applause.)
!W*WW|H1
B-35
MR. CARPENTER: Discussion on the original motion is now in order. Are you«
ready for the question on the original motion? I vri.ll reread the original motion
without the amendment which has now been lost:
"Resolved that dependent properties bo separated into those within or near a
district and those not so near the district, with first preforence to be given to
the owner of land and livestock whoso c^ership, depends on the use of public
lands adjaoent to his property and who has had sufficient prior use.
Are you ready for the question? Those in favor signify by saying "aye"
Opposed same sign.. ...The "ayes" have it. Any further discussion? Any re-
quest for division?...... It is so ordered.
We now oome up to the question of fees.
MR. BRAY: Resolved that fees of H per head per month for cattle and horses
and V Per head Per nonth *" °r sheep and goo.ts be charged for 1956 licenses.
)1R. CARPENTER: The motion is made that 5^ per head per month for cattle and
horses and V Per head Per month for shoeP and goats be charSed for 1^36 licenses.
Do I hear a, seoond to the motion? \
VOICE: I second the motion.
IE, CARPE1ITER: Discussion is in order.
MR. NIELSON: I would like to amend that motion by cutting it in two — 1/2
CAnt for shoep and goats per month, and l\ cents per month for cattle and horses.
VOICE: Second the motion,
VOICE: Vail a further amendment be in order. I would like to make a motion
to. make that H on horses. Otherwise I am in favor of the motion made by Mra
Nielson.
i
' * ' ' ■- i
MR* CARPENTER: Will Mr. Nielson accept that amendment?
MR. NIELSON: Yes.
MR. CARPENTER: The amendment is now l/2 cont on sheep and goats, 2-^ cents
on cattle, and a nickle on ponies.
VOICE: Do I understand that this is the assessment for the advisory boards
or tho grazing fees.
' , MR. CARPENTER: These are grazing fees that ere to be charged for the issu-
ance of licenses. They have nothing to do with assessments.
VOICE: When rail these fees take effect?
MR. CARPENTER: They ivill take effect as the 1936 licenses are issued. ...As to
the payment, I could not say, but in some reasonable manner.
MR, COX OF UTAH: I wish to make an amendment to the amendment to the amend-
ment, and make that 2^ cents on goats.
MR, CARPENTER: That motion is out of order.. Any discussion on the amend-
ment to the motion?
VOICE: I take it that thore"is an attitude or feeling on the part of the .
administration that the stoclonen are willing to underwrite the appropriation of
the president, something like §412,000. Doesn't that require an amendment -as re-
commendod by Colorado?
1
i\m\{iiM*m^w**m^**mmm
■MR. CARPENTER: The amount recommended by Colorado will raise o.bout half the
amount necessary to pay the expense. The amount in the amendment v/ill raise
about one fourth of the amount.
MR. NIELSON: Utah, when we came in with our recommendation, rec6mmended
that fee, but it should not take effect until term permits are issued, and now
the Chairman rather brings that into my amendment for this coming year.
MR. CAKPE1JTER:- I "beg pardon, Mr. Nielsen. I will restate that amendment.
l/2 cent per month for sheep and goats, 2& cents per head per month for cattle ^
and 5 cents per head por month for horses, when term permits are issued. That is
an improper amendment to the original motion, which had to do only with licenses,
therefore it will have to come up separately, and wo will consider the original
motion concerning licenses, which was a niokle on cattle and a penny on sheep.
All those in favor of the original motion, signify by saying aye ■ .
Opposed same sign ..Do you want a standing vote, more discussion or delegates
polled?
MR. TOBIIJ: We have not had the opportunity to discuss the original motion.
Sd a head a month on cattle, to the Nevada rancher, is exorbitant. You can put
a cow down there and it will starve to death. I admit our ranges are more or
less depleted. We are just making a living. Vie can't afford to pay a niokle a
head on cattle. Wo aro indebted now to the RFC and all the rest of the alphabet.
I am opposed to it. I hope. this motion is defeated. I am in favor of the amend-
ment to the motion.
MR. CARPENTER: The point is well taken that the vote was put prematurely.
It was put, however, in response to constant cries for question. I feol that all
phases of this should be fully presented and then, when we' vote, it might be best
to poll every delegate. For that reason, the Chair will recommend further discus-
sion on the question of fees.
IIR. LUBKI1T OF CALIFORNIA: I can't see where you fellows have the argument
that U a head for sheep and 5^ for cattle is exorbitant. If you have got a
thousand head of sheep, you only have to pay this government ten dollars for
those sheep and; if you have got the feed, I would like to know where the. exces-
sive figure comes in at V a head. 1 can't see it.
And the same with cattle. If you fellows have got so much cattle that you
can't run them on that range, why not cut down the cattle. There is no money
made on running cattle on a range whon you haven't got. the feed. In the Lo^e
district, California, we are not running more than the range will run, and we are
willing to pay 10/ a head for the oattle, for the feed we get, and 2^ for sheep.
I am willing to stand with the statement of the Colorado man, of five to one
and I think that is reasonable enough. The first thing you fellows know, this
will go back, and those eastern senators will say, "If you are getting nothing,
stay off." We will get into the same position that we were at tho time of the
forest service. You know the trouble wo got into there. We had to come to Salt
Lake about eight years ago to a grazing conference and fight this thing because
they set the prices up so that we could not pay and run on the forest reserve
— cost you more than running on this public domain.
I know that to be pretty well true of a desert. You gather your cattle at
the v/aterholes and herd your sheep, whether you are on mountains or public domain
and I can't see where that fee is going to hurt anybody. Tho trouble is, it looks
to me like you have got too many cattle and sheep on the range and they are
starving to death. Put the cattle out that the range will stand, cut dorm
your numbers and you will make more money on them.
I have lost money in threo or four years, but I figured this feed out and I
am willing to pay for it, and I could have paid for it in tho last five years, as
M^UkM
>!•.
! :
B-37
bad as cattle We', ft' a the way you handle your stock. You have got too; mx&
on the range. Cut them do\m and you will get somewhere, ji ■
MR. WALTERS OF vftfQIflMGx At the present time, we are exceeding our limit
when wja offer to pay anything, booause all this ought to be on a something for
something basis, and, at the present time, we are not receiving anything, , and
there is no assurance we 'will receive anything other than exercising on the ,
ranee for the next six months. YJyoming rangos are terribly, depleted, lie ap-
plied for license on the assumption that all livestock must necessarily oe in-
cluded in licenses which were on the range in 1934. As a result of that pre-
mise, we ordered licenses for some 90,000 head of sheep and a great many head of
cattle.
We know, before any feasible solution can be arrived at, that a great many
of those stock have to be taken off the range. If there is any fee to be charged,
the Vfyomin- delegation feels it should be a nominal fee, enough to take care of
the administration until wo get on a basis where we know where ire are going.
MR. TAYLOR OF 1IEW HKCCCOi I can't got together the speech we heard here
this morning about the fat cattle of Yarning, and the plea for free range today.
(Laurhter and applause.) I ranched down in Texas and 1 paid 50<* a head a month
pasturage on cattle and 10/ a head on sheep and was glad to get it. Vie have
heard here, ever since we have been here, about the burden of our taxes and ohe
burden of our grazing fees and so on. It is true we have plenty of taxes. to pay
and plenty burdens to carry, but the only people I know of that do not pay any
taxes are on reservations and I. don't want to be en a roS0rva*^\or,^;m^. °*
the Government. I am ready and willing to pay what is suggested by the gentleman
from Colorado*
MR. ratmiiSETi I am in favor of the motion as made, but I still believe that
it should be on the condition of permits being issued as rapidly as possible. I
feel that the Majority of D oards in Colorado are ready to commence right now ^on
issuinr pemits. I think the fee is not excessive. In fact, as well stated by
yoCit does not cover the entire cost, but I feel also that a good part of this
cost of administration should be on Uncle Sam's shoulders, if you please, because
you and your able assistants are going into the work of conservation. You are
saving the forest. You are doing a lot of biological work —
MR. CARPENTER: Not me — not mo.
MR. mimfiCIi And, by the way — you may laugh at this — you should do a
lot of rovegetation, and I believe you would be doing mighty fine v/or/cuhon you
kill some of these rodents. I think that is work that belongs to the Federal
Government and these stockmen should not be called upon to pay it. It is improv-
ing the range, it is true, and the time will come when we can afford to pay uoro
for theso grazing privileges. Look at the little colony they sent up to Alaska.
MR. CARP3NT3R: We will have to stick to tho question.
MR. MIINiTSRY: We would like to have a little government money spent in im-
proving these ranges and I think it is only fair it should be dene. I still re-
turn to the fact that I believe that the issuing of the term permits should be
commenced at once, where boards arc ready to issue them.
MR. CARP3ITTSR: I might state, in explanation, that the Federal Government
spent in excess of two million dollars in grazing camps this year, none of which
is considered in this budget at all.
• IK. HARDIN OF MONTANA: In regard to the question before the house now the
proposal to levy 5^ a head per month on cattle and Ijrf a head per month en ^eep:
In Montana, wo have a little different situation from what you *en>ave; »P there
we have not only got our Taylor Grazing districts, but have also organi zed grazing
districts under the state law, within that grazing ^strict, he have .et up in
the state of Montana a grazing commission, and the funds to support the grazing
j
/
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• lit nlMHBI
• - .■■-.-,-
iipf'^rf-'^Wfi
B -30
6omni8sion rt come from a,a s on stoo^ ^have ^^Jfg
they arc depleted. If the £^^??^ aSwe could^fford to pay
on sheep.
Xn order to militate ^^^^^i^^SLT^ .
JSk-SM StW^S^aVS^. X 2 Heartily in favor - -
».:«« OP UTAH: Conditions in UtayndHev,da are entirely different^ .
from what they are in California ^™«^££%&, if we are going to
no shorts t*u» we go out on *he.deser^.^ ^^enentarv feed. If the Taylor
return v,ith our sheep, without fJ^^^tZt^oXre so we would not bo
Grazing Art could increase the feed and o bv%c £h P ^ be lled
subject to snowstorms and be buried onco or t ace £ babl vfe could af-
t0 go to a railroad track and ship in to a £,« tnen p j^ ^ ^ pres_
ford to pay V or g. and we might be able to raise ^ ^ oxoessive) and
ent conditions as thoy prevail in jBV^\*"Vp y^h deletion, that we pay
I am to favor of the recordation »^^ *h 9"tf on cattle, and we only pay
1/2 oent per head for sheep por month, and <.* cents
that when the tern permits are issued.
m. „ OP COLORADO . If this thing is not ,orth ^ cost ^administer-
ing, is it worth admim storing Let s drop ru u a.
to administer it.
m. iftBurm op Colorado: % wl«^^»!^£r^$ "art
musing. I sit here and hear all ^.^Xl/om on^ of these men, you realize
to tales one of those licenses or permits a uray from one ,
the value of it. It becomes very ^SSkIo^SS I fear that is -vhere we
gone to destruction trying to get somet hag »* J10™1 S«
are going to wind up if we don't pay for what we get.
SBBM PRO!. OREGON Wo as a selectee ipjft £•£{£** "^Wnrt
of using this public domain, * ^/™ "Lert £ J 0\t "and expect it to be pro-
CEVKS ^roriylKo ,V. ?T5fV. oost of administration.
MR. BALLARD OP OREGON, I Just want a little -- i^ation. ^cn thiols
Plathd riimrbeych:rgSed t°n ^e^S^^ we use il the entire
SK; n£ or VtaHK. or whatever the t*. ^b be,
MR. CARPEHTER: The question is rai -d if the P^^^that'te^T
of months - for instance eight months - and then not ^ ^ ^^
. to whether the charge rould extend ,or ^* J? °£ iojU ^n tor the non-use of a pet-
not, that the Board £«".*•*»££• .f^iCrS in these checkerboard axeas
mit! There is one other item that is most ^rtan ^ ^ ^ ^
where the range is capable of r""»8; ■•*» ld be made 40 percent of
public lands in that ^'^^^^i^vf no right to charge for other lands
&^^^?£Z^»»* *~ question,
tt. BALLARD, Hardly. I ^IlS1^^1^^™ ~'*
r^^ouH a ff JMTi'SSi^ we would be stuck for . or T.
or get off for four.
„. ««, » ,™u« d.P«d. o£ .r... « »; o— - ^sysr ■
B -39
an administrative standpoint. You are not; acting on this as members of the De- •
Srtment or lust as I am, and just as much as I am, and you are going to have to
orfent your point of view of the administration of it around to the point of viev,
of the administrators. . , y
If you want to look at the cost of this matter, you want to take the ;ost of
the Division of Grazing, including the pay of the district advisory •• ,,*;j,000.
That does not include the cost of the clerical worlc performed by the general
land office; that does not provide any pay for the Division of inycsoigations in
their technical work in preparing maps, in checking over all of the applications
running' down statements on commensurate properties, and completely mapping all the
private and public lands. The Division of Investigations men are not paid oy the
Division of Grazing. The man hours v/orlced in serializing, abstracting, and "su-
ing permits in the General Land Office, exceeded, in the period for which they
were performed, the man hours of the Division of Grazing. That is no _ part of the
calculations. Just as the improvement of the range in the CCC camps is no part-
— that is an emergency matter. , .1 « *
But you should have before you the whole picture, as Congress is go'ing to
look at it. We are not trying to take our share of the investment, because that
is one of the benefits of government that comes to all of us. But the Particu-
lar earts that pertain to grazing rail be segregated and set apart. The minority
parties subject you to cross-examination when you say you are paying your v/ay.
Whatever you vote, I expect to make that my recommendation, but I want you
to see, fairly and frankly, what you are going into* Ycu are all old enough to
have experience in how much good something you get for nothing amounted to. Get
that all into your points of vie-,;, gentlemen, and gather all your arguments, I
would like to hear from everybody and, when we act, remember the Government put
it up to the men who are not only assistants in the administration of the law,
but who pay the prices. I have been told it was perfectly foolish to put it up
to you men. I answered that saying that you people wore able to divest yourselves
of the point of view as payers of the price and look at it from every angle and
see what was best for the application of the Taylor Act over a period of years.
l'Tavbo 2* cents would be best. 1-aybe it would be best to say to Congress:
"It is true we said we would lay a million dollars on the table, but we have de-
cided to only pay a half million." They would say I would never try that again;
that just simply is a breakdown to the whole system.
I want to hear every argument come out on every side, and I. have got lOOfo
faith in this bunch to do it right if they take time enough. Wo are going to
take all the time required, all night if necessary, and I am going to stay with
you.
HR. DORRIS: I think that the objection to the fees is that it is not going
to the Government, but it is going back to taxes that we are already paying. It
is a double taxation on the live stockman. Three fourths of the fees wo pay in
here goes back to the states and our county governments, which we are already
supporting, and it is making a d cub It taxation on one class. That is where the
objection comes. It is that double taxation that we are objecting to,
MR. CARF311TER: Let me speak a minute on that and try to give you the point
of view that Congress had. You are getting the uso of so much pasture. You are
getting the chance to make it better. It is worth about so much in comparison
with other pastures of people in the middle west and south, and other parts of
the country. You have 15% of the cattle and 4(# of all the sheep in the U. S.
and you ship to the same markets that the gentlemen who pay a much higher rental
do. From the standpoint of meeting the rest of the trade in the U. S., some
fair grazing feo should be sot, regardless of the cost of administration, from
that standpoint.
Nov/, if a man would hear considered some fair fee for an intake, which 5/
would not make, which 10pT would make and a little over — if that is so, tne
— — ^— —
/
B-40
question comes up v/hy give half of it back to the counties. Gentlemen whenever
you learn that half of it comes back to your counties, if a committee of y.ou
users are in there, before the county commissioner, and say, rfe have puo so
much money into your coffers this month, and we want the levy cut aown in, the
degree that that amount equals" —if you don't do that, then you are not. per-
forming your proper duty as a watch-dog of the treasury.
There is no reason to let the money go into the county treasury. Make them
take it off of your tax 'on real estate. You know, if you ask for it, you jwilV
eet it. You vrill not get your taxes cut down if you don«t get on the job,., i
feel that this addition to the local revenue, altho in Oregon and Nevada it, goros
directly back to the districts, is fair from the national point of view, _ ,Tney
are not trying to keep any of this money in their coffers; .they are turnxng, i,
back to the place from which it came and, if it supplants taxes on real estate,
it should really supplant them.
On the other hand, if you have some other venture and want it to go there,
you can do so. Othorwiso, you can request your county commissioner to let it go
where you want it. Taxes will go higher and higher unless somebody objects^
This is one method of having the stockmen object. That is, the only explanation I
can give on that feature of it. The 25^, I was assured, would be used for the
improvement of the district,
MR. LUBKIN: The statements made by Mr, Carpenter are true. I am one of the
commissioners in California. Ve have a budget system set up and, the more money
we can pull dovm from the forest service and from other sources, the less thetax
rate is. I am not here to boast about that, but we are only second or third in
the state in my county, on the tax rate, and we watch every angle of ; .
the producer, whether cattlemen, sheepmen or minors, or whatever it is, and when-
ever we can get the money in from outside sources, we do it ~- for instance, the
zasoline tec:. We used to havo a tax on roads; that has been cut down, but the
taxes on roads cut dovm the real estate property tax. Our budget is such that wo
can only spend - if we spend a thousand dollars, say, as an illustration, on
roads for the fiscal year, we can only raise that budget 5/; it don't ma.ee any
difference; if more of this money came in from an outside source, we couid not
spend more than a thousand dollars plus the SfL So I can not exactly *&ree with
Mr, Dorris on it; that is, double taxation, lie arc getting something worthwhile
and I feel we should pay for it. If it is not worthwhile, we should quit..
MR. COTIOVER OF UTAH: I will tell you why our Utah boys aro opposed to this
fee: because we feel that the Department of the Interior has nothing to soil us,
only operation. In our district, we levied this same kind of tax that we > opposed
for a seasonal operation, and we are going to operate our district for 1/2 cent
on shoep and 2-| cents on cattle and horses. We are going to operate for six _
months for that amount. If we would make that amount for a month, that will in-
crease that fee six times, and we feel that all we should pay at this time is the
operation fee. Maybe a lot of you fellows graze in a fatter land than we graze
in. Our deserts are depleted, not from overgrazing but from drouth. We have been
burnt to death for yoars, and, if we can once got a normal amount of moisture, we
are willing and glad to pay for everything we can get off of public domain.
I think that this fee should be as v/e have stated, that tho Department of
the Interior should carry their part of the expense, and let the people using tho
domain cover the operation cost, and I believe that this fee will cover the oper-
ation cost. Our sheepmen in our districts lose on a herd. A winter herd of
sheep runs around 2500 to 3000 sheep. Our men lose on a herd an averago of
400 head of sheep on that herd in one season. The cattle lose the same propor-
tion. We feel we are not in a position to go ahead and pay uhis iee now because
we have this adverse condition. We would like to have the fee held nominal on
a sliding scale. Why not start easy and give us this nominal foe, let it grow
as tho country grows. Letts pay for what tho country produces.
MR. OLIVER LEE OF HEW MEXICO: I, too, join you in my sincere belief in the
integrity and fairness of the livestock raisers of the west and public domain
>.';oa
'
B-41
states. I don't know how you feel, but I feel we have been just' slipping a lit-
tle bit. I felt that all of the livestock raisers were men of character that
could determine any question that comes before them fairly and justly, regardless
of their personal interest. We have been encouraged by the acts of our advisory
boards up to this prosent time, but I feel that they are taking an unfair posi-
tion here today. \
.. ' ■ ..'■•.»."!
I am not fully advised as to the cost of leasing the school lands in the
different states. I am not fully advised as to the prevailing amount of lease
charges on privately owned land. 1 am not fully advised as to the forest fees
charge, but I feel I could say with confidence that the fee set-up in the present
resolution will bo less, as far as a grazing charge is concerned, than is> charged
on any of the other lands within their respective states, and I think that they
should be fair and just and not attempt to get this land for any great amount
less than they pay for other lands, I
MR. CECIL OF OREGOK: I fail to get the viewpoint of the gentleman who spoke
about double taxation. The reason I mention that at this time, the subject has
come up repeatedly since we have been here. As I understand the theory of this
Act, we are all hopeful that vre are going to improve the rango. Ultimately, it
is going to be worth the fee. The fee collected at this time will simply be an
investment toward bringing about this desired result. As to what bocomes of that
money, it is beside the question; it seems to me that is really confusing rather
than clarifying the issue.
MR. CARPENTER: I might state this: We are trying to get all the facts in
front of the delegates. Senator Leo raised the point of fees on school lands.
They will run from 1-|^ an acre in Arizona, to as high as 80 an acree
MR. COX OF UTAH: Afber listening to this discussion with some amusement and
some recollection of livestock meetings that I have attended here and other
places before the Taylor Act was passed and we, as a group of live stockmen, the
people who promoted the Taylor Act and the people who are now administering it,
signed a note in blank. I know resolutions were passed and I have heard livo-^
stock men say we were willing to pay a reasonable fee for the use of this public
domain, and we didn't want it for nothing. I have heard our congressmen who
worked for it report that the opposition from the East to this bill, part of it •
was because the eastern states had no state lands and, when they produced live-
stock, they entered into competition with livestock produced on free grazing land.
We had all those arguments to meet and vre passed some, resolutions, or ex-
pressed ourselves privately, that vre were willing to stand for reasonable fees
for the use of this public land and for reasonable fees for the administration of
it. We gave that impression out. We have given it out here. Our administrator
here, Mr. Carpenter, has relied upon the feeling and the information that he
got from attending those meetings and I believe he expects us to honor the check
. and the note that vre signed in blank, now, and vote for such a reasonable fee for
' the us© of this public land and for a reasonable fee for the operation of it, and
personally it is my belief that the fee of IjL for sheep and 50 'for cattle is
reasonable and we should stand behind the Department and our Secretary here an<d
our leader, and honor this check that vre have signed in blank today, and vote
down the motion to reduce the foe, and adopt the fee of one to five
MR, CARPENTER: I want to say that I stuck my own neck out on the tea* to two
with Congress, and I will get her back in, so don't mind about me. I want you to
set a fair f oo, and I believe you will, but never mind about me.
MR. DURANT OF NEVADA: With all due respect to the gentleman from New Mexico
in regard to the character of cattlemen, and all due respect to his seniority, I
happen to come from a third generation of cattle people in. Nevada, and wo always
felt that the cattle people were also of good character and wo resent very much^
the fact that Nevada has taken the attitudo that vre don't want to pay for anything,
Wo want to pay just as much as the traffic will bear. We feel that conditions in
Nevada are so different from these other .states that we feel consideration should
B-42
be given and adjust these differences to the local conditions. We are not trying
to evade these conditions. We are trilling and anxious to pay. We feel if is not
entirely fair to put a fee on us that will fit these other conditions. We want
to bo behind you and support you in every way v/e can. We believe the Taylor Act'
is a good thing, but we do' believe in fairness to the people who are trying to
make a livelihood from it©
MR. CARP2I:TER
the amendment to th
goats, and a nickle for horses.
: Aro you ready for the question? The question will b'e on
le motion, which was Z?gd for cattle and 1^ for sheep and
MR. T0BI1T: Didn:t you take the amendment off?
MR. CARPENTER: Yes, I did. That applied to permits and was therefore
ruled out of order. So, when v/e vote, v/e will vote on the original motion,
which is 5^ per head per month on cattle and horses and Ifi per head per month on
sheep and goats. Are you ready for that question? All those in favor of 5^ on^
cattle and horses and 1^-on sheep and goats, per month, for a fee for liconses in
1936, will say "aye" Opposed same sign... •..-•The "ayes" have it.
i
Do you wish a division? Do I hoar a request for a division? If noti, it is
ordered that tho recommendation to the Secretary of the Interior will be 5^ for
cattle and horses and Ifi on sheep and goats. That finishes the 'four subjects we
had under consideration here,
I have an announcement to make which will bo of particular interest to you
here in view of your recent vote, that the first case of trespass under the Tay-
lor Grazing Act has been officially placed in the hands of the United States At-
torney for action. I do not wish at this time to state the name and place, but
you will all know about it, becauso it will soon be out in the shape of a (warrant.
MR. McFARLAiJEi I have a resolution. Would it be proper to introduce it at
this time.
MR. CARPENTER: I would like to complete tho program of organization and im-
provement, which will be completed here with selected speakers, and I believe we
will limit the speakers to not more than three minutes. In the matter of organ-
ization, I will take that up in this v/ay. It was suggested that it would be ad-
visable for district boards to incorporate, for cattle and sheep sections to in-
corporate separately. There is nothing mandatory about that, but it puts you
squarely under Section 9, makes it a little handier to deal under a cooperative
agreement. That is just a matter for you to consider.
In the other matter of organization — the formation of state and national
committees — in the absence of express authorization to do so, I believe v/e will
leave the district committees as they are and, at the next meeting of official
delegatos from the different oommittees, v/e will take up the matter of permanent
state and national committees, in order that the range may be fairly represented
by both local, state and national committees, should that be your wish.
The third subject under organization was the future relations with existing
livestock organizations. I have had some talk with the officers of many of those
associations, and it is believed wise, at this time, 'to lot that subject alone.
Let us approach it gradually, as v/e come to it, and with the idea that we are not
trying to build another organization as a rival to any of those that are already
in existence.
Are there any questions that you wish to ask before I go to the question of
impr ov ement s ?
VOICE: Associations are recognized, such as local associations?
MR. CARPENTER: Yes. I looked up, under Section 9, the legislative history,
into the debates in the committee. Congress referred to unincorporated associa-
tions, and I was assured by the Solicitor that the words "local associations of
stockmen" referred to incorporated associations. In Montana, it would be very
much to your advantage to incorporate.
/
B-43
MR WALTERS OF WYOKIHG: The associations you refer to can be purely volun-
tary can they not? That is, I mean, they must have no formal organization at
all--- just a group brought together without any formal organization will be re-
cognized by tho Department in awarding licenses or temporary permits? | .
ITR. CARPENTER: Yes. I should bring this point before you again. You gen-
tlemen perform dual functions. You v/ill notice that, in Circulars 1 and 2, it is
provided that, when authorized, the district advisors may act for the best inte-
rests of the licensees in other matters than passing on licenses and ^recommending
special rules. How, you are acting as a 13 card of Directors then, icr a local
association. The matter of these assessments brought it up before the district.
The rules and regulations which will be forthcoming and which will provide for
the method of paying the assessments, the matter of incorporation, and tne xunc-
tions of the local associations as separate from the governmental activities,
will be made very plain, and that is why I believe further talk about organiza-
tion is a little premature at this time.
You can see what we are looking forward to is a local association of the ■
users in each district, that will be able to take other action than your govern-
mental activities in coming to assist the Department ■ in recommending licenses
and special rules. In other words, the associations will take care of other mat-
ters for you.
MR. DORRIS: Would that change make any difference in the election of your
advisory board?
MR. CARPEITTER: I think not. I believe it is going to be advisable to have
tho Directors of tho local associations the same men as the district advisors,
for this reason: if they are not, you will get into a conflict. I see no reason
why the Board of Directors of the local association, if they will elect them by
precinct, and one -man- one -vote, the way we do you gentlemen, why the Government
should not adopt them as the advisors. Do you see? In other words, that we would
take tho Directors of local associations, providing they were elected democratic-
ally as you have been, and allow them to Advise the Department of the Intend as
the" district advisors now do.
MR. DORRIS: I had some experience v.ith the stock associations as an advisory
boafd. The Forest Service held that, as long as we had a stock association that
more than 5($ of our permittees belonging to that association, that we would be
entitled to an advisory board. Things went along very well for a time, and the
membership drew out of the association - that is, they just dropped it - and we
lost our advisory board.
Under this ruling that we are in now, every permittee is allowed to vote and
to choose his representative to represent him on the advisory board which makes
it permanent, and there is no way you can drop out and lose this unless the Gov-
ernment says, "We don't want you," and, if we swap over and allow some association
to select this advisory board, I am afraid we might be on ground that is not too
secure,
MR. CARPEi-ITSR: I may say that this is net anything that should be "jumped
at". It should be very carefully considered by the Department and regulations
sent out and discussed by you on the matter.
I have selected eight speakers and will ask them to speak six minutes each
on "Improvements", from the Advisor's point of view - what he thinks of the work
done in his state by actual observation - if he wishes to criticize or Praise,
it makes no difference - and what he thinks about the future of it. I will call
first upon Mr. Mathis of Arizona. If you will speak from your scat, Lr. .lathis,
it will save time.
MR, MATKIS: I think, in ordor for you to appreciate what the CCC camps are
doing on the "Strip", you might as well have a little bit of history on that
"Strip"! It is a quite notorious part of the country. I have been ranching there
f$P fW|fwf^wp?^PP^^
B- 44
for 35 years. and, during that 35 yoars, I think about four men have been killed, ■
and I would not atop to estimate hov; many have been dam near-whipped to death.
When one1 man was fatally shot, we sent a cowboy to tell hite wife about it. . When
his wife met the cowboy, ' she said, "Was it fatal?" He said, "Yes, but I think he
will be all right in a few days." (Laughter) . I
just like to say that 1 want to commend the work.so£ Mr. Carpenter,
Mr* Kerr. They are not trying to do this with their feet under the
I would
Mr „' Ryan and Mrt
•desk. I took a trip with these gentlemen on the "Strip",, ; After tolling! them a
lot of these blood-curdling stories, I got them by without a scratch and they
felt all righto We come by a little settlement there, where they were celebrat-
ing, and the women were running footraces. Mr* Carpenter "said, "Let's stop and
see these races. S0 we stopped. He said, "1*11 bet on that girl in blue' there. "
I said, "What do you want to bet?" We wagered a little on it, and he lost his
money. He gave it up all right, but he said, "I think you have been out; here
chasing the women." (Laughter) '. : •;
MR. CARPENTER : I will say, in that little town, there is a surplus 'of she-
stuff now. (Laughter)
'■■.•I - i •
MR. MATHIS: Gentlemen, wo -appreciate the work of these camps, I just want-
ed to give you that little sketch of the history of Arizona to show you we are
badly in need of this kind of work. It is work We could not afford to do.' We
first went out thero with paok mules and, by donations, wo made it possible to
use buck-boards. At the present time, the CCC camps out there are going to con-
struct good roads and they have advised with the advisory boards and asked us to
help plan the work, asked us to plan a 5-year program. We told them we could
plan a 10-year program if necessary. They are going to- build roads, trails,
fences, water developments, and we soon hope to have the Arizona Strip so- we can
pay l(y a hoad grazing privileges on that, ': ■'•
'-! i .
I would like to say to the gentleman from California, who was shooting at us
a while ago, that we have had to take our cattle dov/n there to fatten thorn, and
pay 55*00 a month for pasture. No wonder you are so liberal about those' payments.
' MR. CHRISTEHSEN OF CALIFORNIA: Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen:'' When the
gentleman from Wyoming this morning was telling about the good cattle in Wyoming,
he reminded mo of an old story of a rancher who, one day when he made his rents,
walked into a bar dealer and said , "Give me a little shot of rye." He poured out
a big drink and drank it and he said, "That's fine; that's good,." The bar dealer
thought, "I wonder what he would say if he had a really good drink." So he put
out a bottle of very fine whiskey aid said, "Try a drink of that." So this fel-
low poured himself a stiff drink and drank it, and didn't eo.y a word, and he
started to walk out. The bar dealer said, "Say, fellow. VJhat do you think about
that drink." He said, "It speaks for itself." (Laughter)
Gentlemen, we have two CCC camps in the Modoc -Las sen grazing district, Dis-
trict 2 in California. I was glad to be asked to say a few words about this graz-
ing work. A good many come to me end ask me about it. I will just give a little
outline of the projects that we have asked f&r, many of which have been endorsed
and granted by the Department, 'which projects are in process of completion at the
present time. First is ran £e examination; determining carrying capacity and a
complete survey of range lands adjacent to our ranches -- range cover, kind and
tendency -- water existing and future development of water, wells and .springs,
etc. Second, trails and roads — at the present time, we have 200 miles of trails
and roads under construction or contemplated to be constructed. > Water develop-
ment -- we have two wells now operating, with' 20 new locations for wells Contem-
plated. Drift fonc os — many miles now under contemplation. The boys are making
pests and starting to dig holes. • Predatory animals -- six projects under way.
In the movement of livestock to summer ranges, where the men used to start out
with cattle overnight, ■ we are now having the set-up where we are having whole '
colonies benefit -- the welfare of those in that neighborhood. Stock driveways
are being located and a portion of those driveways are being policed. Insect
control is contemplatod — fire control, telephone lines, erosion control, and
poisonous plant control. I thank you. ' ,
I
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MR. ZAPP OF IDAHO i We have got two CCC camps in Idaho, doing about ;the
same work as in California, and we appreciate very much what they are doing.
|j : , *
MR. MONTGOMERY OP MONTANA: Range improvements and suggestions for its- solu-
tion and preservation. Wo in Montana feel that it requires a range control pro-
gram -which necessitates several very important features first of which is the de-
velopment and control of stock water supplies 0 Those are many and varied in
nature due to local conditions and supplies that are available to development and
to control, : i ,
: I1 '
1. Dams and reservoirs of varying sizes and for varying purposes. The
storage of water for use in its stored location presents many problems for many
sizes and types of reservoirs and dams — you must readily see that in any En-
deavor to seoure well distributed water supplies local conditions and opportuni-
ties will of necessity decide the location and type or size.. We believe also
the storage of larger quantities of water at heads of dry 'streams that can be
released at periods to replenish the water holes in the stream bed below'td be a
highly desirable storage. The farther use of diversion dams or dikes to distri-
bute run-off water over a large surface area to better store the water in the
soil to also offer a desirable solution to water conservation.-
2. Springs. The development and protection of springs thru the uso of
fenced earth tanks or reservoirs which can be led into service water tanks is
likewise much to be desired- ■ 1 ;
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3. The use of wells in these areas where surface storage is not available
or not practical is still another desirable supply cf water which if properly de-
veloped thru installation of small gas engine pump units and /or windmills along
with earth tanks for storage which, are then equipped with 'service tanks fillled
thru valved or siphon pipes. The construction of reservoirs of all kinds' offer
a wonderful opportunity for soil erosion control.
The construction of drift fences, boundary fences and as time brings the al-
lotments of the range the construction of fences about allotments will aid con-
siderably in controling. the past difficulties of q,vergrazing0 The construction
of roads and trails thruout the grazing area where needed will aid in supervision
and fire prevention.;- The construction of corrals, dipping vats, camp cua.rters
for herders must of necessity proceed with caution and then only when and whore
actually needed and must be under strict supervision of some organization such as
our Montana State Grazing Districts provide.
The problem of driveways likewise are desirable if they be arranged and pro-
vided with ample and proper regulations and supervision. The elimination of
fencod county roads thru large grazing areas is very desirable and wherever pos-
sible should be eliminated by the construction of auto pass crossings and gates.
The removal of old deserted fence material, old farm buildings, the obliteration
of the old signs of farm buildings thru filling of abandoned cellars, wells,
cisterns, and the like, is much to be desired. Due provision should be made for
trail pastures especially for stock en route to market. A concentrated drive on
rodent and magpie control must not be overlooked as well as the continued effort
to keep down to a minimum of all predatory- animals. •
i
All the above are activities that can be carried a long way toward, comple-
tion thru the activities of not only CCC camps but the- camps, and projects now go-
ing ahead under the Y/PA thru the resettlement division. The reseeding of aban-
doned farm lands, the eradication of poisonous plant life, are other improvements
to the range situation. i ,•
In conclusion and summary, every effort should be made to correlate the ac-
tivities of the projects now going f orward under the direct supervision of the
resettlement division with the -establishment of CCC camps which are making possi-
ble a new era for the people of the state and country.
I
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MR. A. D. BRCOIFIE1D OF HEW iiEXICO.: Whon the advisory boards of tho South-
western How Mexico Grazing District No. 3, got organized and settled dorm to
work wo wore told that tho Secretary of the Interior had tho erosion control
work program and conservation of tho rccgo as provided in tho Taylor Act, placed
under tho supervision of tho -Division of Gracing, and that wo wore chargod.with
tho further duty of helping make it servo tho Public Land?. We wore not too
oarer for more duties, but if this was tho Secretary's wishes, well ana good.
We had always wanted some control' over tho Public Domain.- Now we wore Siting
that and if cooperation between tho Grazing Service and the. ranch men wqurld bo
an aid toward protecting and conserving. tho lands we resolved to do all .possible
to help. . '- ( ' ]
On the first of August, last year, we received and got under way tl>ree Divi-
sion of Grazing CCC camps, all located in our grazing district,, T acre is little
need to outline just what the purposes of these camps are .-- with. ;his,? most oi
you are familiar. It will, however, be interosting to show to wual; extent
grazing district Boards, and the ranch men, can cooperate to .facilitate, tljio
range improvement and conservation work of the camps e -.. .. , j
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In cur district, we have been active in helping to develop those projects
Which we believed would benefit and bo of some value to the stockmen. Our Board
receives and makes recommendations, on all ranch proposals submitted by individual
ranchers. There are several reasons why it is believed this is a good practice/
because of the fact that all proposals come before the Board, all selfish, inte-
rests are minimized. Projects are approved only v/here there is a benefit, at
least in varying degrees, to the public range.
Among tho moro important projects and those which will be of a more ;immed,,i-
ate benefit to both the range and tho rancher and the livestock industry might bo
listed: 1. Water development, - just now this is necessarily being delayed be-
causo of the fact that a development of water prior to the allocation of range
would operate to complicate its adjudication. This is lending strength to a posi-
tion, well fortified, we believe, for an early temporary allotment privilege.
2. Tho construction of fonces on ranch boundaries. following this, we
might list water spreading in areas where the terrain adapts itself to the work,
and to be followed by revegetation which becomes practicable because of the col-
lection of a greater amount of water*
3. There is probably no project which has wider sanction and greater gen-
eral approval than the destruction of rodents and poisonous plants. This is be-
ing pushed vigorously and ranchers in our area are cooperating and furnishing
available ranch buildings v/hen necessary to house the boys who are carrying on •
this work.
Other work now being done is community ranch roads, connecting with the
main highways, stock" trails leading thru rough mountainous hills, and experimen-
tal plots for revegetation. And there is .yet other work we hope to getdono, as
rock and concrete reservoirs in canyons where there is no water, community scales,
holding traps at shipping pens, and perhaps along the driveway. In these three ^
latter projects, we are firm in a position that tho ranch-men furnish the material,
i
We believe, with all the good being done, that some constructive criticism
6an well be offered. We suggest that some improvement can be made in the work by
more rigid supervision of the personnel of the camps, in order that the ineffi-
cient ones may be weeded out. Further, that the Superintendents, the technicians
and foremen be in part responsible for their work to the advisory boards. If
• this could be done we are of tho opinion moro interest and efficiency will be the
result among the officers, and the work done be still more permanent and secure.
We are extremely proud of the work dono in our district by tho ECW and glad
that it is under the control of the Division of Grazing. There his been exem-
plary work done and it stands as a monument' to the Service. It appears very per-
manent and no doubt will .control to a degree erosion and redound to the benefit
of the range „
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B-47
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MR. MARVEL OF NEVADA, In our State we have two or throe CCC ««», Wl •
this connection I would like to compliment Mr. Joe Leech h ° P,' '
well as Major Hunt, for their efficient work? ? ^ °°-work^> as
Mi. A. S. CHENEY OF EASTERN UTAH: Vihen our board in Utah Ho 8 lJnr^H
it™ THf Preoo^»G.. speakers on this subject have almost taken my 'power. 4 will
drilling sites, have outlined 419 road, and "rails asw^r" V^'i '" TU
peison plant extermination, trails, drift fences^ etc! ' " ^^ °°1>trp1' ,
This Program calls for an estimated outlay of 090-raan-doys or about TV '''
n- . 1S; f '^ °F "f™ UMI: * a" very .v.uch ill favor of this work. In
We wf * ' WS. tV'° 0ar'pS " °ne at Jerioho and the o«ier at Clover.
We have some very active superintendents in the Jericho Camp. The superinten-
dents are very enthusiastic in the work. supermcen-
ourdS;r^tSEDistr?!tTGi ?! f™'™*' in reP°rt^ « «- improvement of
our.. aisv.net, District 1, I wish to state that a rreat many thin-s hivo h-nn
superSn ofVffcai0!SVflth **■ *' G" ^ ** has th9 ^emont and
h^H-1"6 haJ9.19f,b°ys there. But inspite of the fact that they were
deal inP?he wav or M °^?™nt "* tools' th*' ^™ accomplished a good
deal in -the way of buildup reservoirs or water development arid 'that has
been with shovels, picks and wheelbarrows. They have been mCis, d -ha b\fc« i ,
asps s^isss it^sss"; jas ~ - «r^
they lere^elted3 Ihe^aW °°^" ^ *"" p"P-«*™ localities where
in Le^ylr^aUs^o'th °1 cat ion'of r^T !C ST *£?' ^^
pests alone the driveways where they ^XelnT^^^ZX^
and06in'the «™ *° "^ &1S° ^ * °«* ^S been ostabfi hod at"orland
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B-48
MR, CARP3NTER: I have a proposal that I believe should be submitted to this
assembly. It answers most of the kick that we hear on the range: That tlje Ari-
zona strip be fenoed out, that Utah keep Wyoming out, and Colorado keep Wyoming
out, and all states fence up completely and keep their stuff at home,
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Gentlemen, we have divided the ten western states into three regions, and
we have with us this afternoon, the three regional supervisors". "First region,
New I-Iexico and Arizona; seoond region, California and Oregon, and the last .region
includes Utah, Wyoming and Colorado, I wish we had the time to go into detail
with these regional- supervisors here on that work „ As we do not, I will; ask each
of them to stand up and give us a word as to what they think the value of their
cooperation with the stockmen and their work with the committees,' I will first
oall on the region from Now Mexico and Arizona -- Mr, Caron. Just a word of
greeting is all I am going to call on you for, on account of the time.
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MR* CARON: We have eight camps located in New Mexico and six camps in Ari-
zona, which were occupied at various dates between July and August of 193G, To '
other agencies operating CCC camps £ we probably seemed slow in getting started.
However, during the last four or five months, we expended 150,000 man days , of
labor on the public domain, with the following accomplishments:
Constructed 250 miles of truck trails „ ilaintained some 500 miles of
roads. Treated 80,000 acres for erosion control and flood irrigation. Built 75
miles of stock trails,, Eradicated poisonous plants on isolated areas, totaling
5,000 acres. Gathered 3^000 pounds of various seed, whicl| is being planted on
flood irrigation projects. Constructed over! 1C0 miles of telephone line.
Treated over .450,000 acres for . rodent oontrol. Built 650 -miles of fencov .Also
various other construction and maintenance projects, such as spring development,
cattle guards, stock tanks, wells, 'and so forth.
Have established range survey parties to check commensurate property, \ these
helping to speed the allotments. Constructed a permanent type side camp in Albu-
querque for enrollee draftsmen who work in our drafting department, making vari-
ous kinds of maps needed by the Division of Grazing. Have developed a mobile
type unit for side camps. This consists of a trailer type kitchen unit and also
a trailer for bathing facilities. With this type side camp, accommodating about
35 men, we expect to be able to move about more freely over the public domain
and will be operated more efficiently due to the fact that we have the men lo-
cated near the work projects, thus eliminating the travel time to' and from, work.
We have' submitted to Washington -a five-year program based on. an average of
25 camps for New Mexico, and 21 camps for Arizona, This involves an expenditure,
of some 10 million dollars and covers some 3400 townships in New Mexico and Ari-
zona, Some of the. contemplated projects, are as follows: 35,000 miles of fencing.
Flood irrigation. on one million acres. Rodent control on approximately 10 million
acres, /■
Assuming that all range lands will be. allocated during this time, we set up
a very extensive water development program, which includ.es wells, stock tanks,
and spring development. Our estimate shows need for some 1500 wells and about
4000 sjbock tanks. We also have various other projects such as roads, telephone
lines, poisonous plant eradication, experimental plots, stock trails, etc
Cooperation with the Advisory Boards: Vork projects must have the approval
of .the Chairman of the Advisory Board, This £s necessary in order to make sure
that the improvements put oh the range are what the stock man needs and wants,
/,
We want the members of the various advisory boards and the stockmen to sug-
gest projects that we need in their localities, and help us to put this program
over.
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B-49 '
MAJOR C. IT. HUNT, RENO: Mr. Carpenter has rather limited the opportunity to
teU you all of the very many fine things that we have done and would like .to do,,
and has United the the discussion by ourselves to a point of a matter of intro-
duction ana a thanking of the committees who have formulated these work programs.
I would like to take this opportunity to tell you however, how the wirk
programs are formulated and how they are carried out. ^istrxct 2 -- I 4pcak
for District 2 only, or rather Region 2, which embraces the states fG^-0,-™'
OrLon and Nevada -- the superintendents of the camps - and there are i? o. chem
r6f,°^r^f?Irent states - go to the committee men and ask for their rocomme.id-
aUcnrL tl .hftypo ofVrAo he carried out, the location of that work, and
when it shall be carried out.
Thev then take these recommendations and formulate them into a workable
programed resubmit them to the committees, and, after having ha th»ir «toy
endorsed in writing on the back of the work program, the same is s fitted to
gram is then started, •
I will take this opportunity to thank the members of the committees of the
three states for the cooperation that they gave ^e recent call f °^elp -
California alone6-' the Division of Grazing lest none, and we hope can even ex-
pand after April.
' As to what is coming, what we want to do I am reminded of the rtorfr about
negro: sait '.'Yes suh, and whan I gets my breath, I am going some mere.
A survey with which you are all familiar has been carried on in the matter
of coLenT/ability and look water in Region Jo. 2. B rough ^to < «.. there
are completed 702 coranensur ability surveys, and 654 stock water survejs.
MR CARPEFTER- I wish to call attention to the fact that we never could
have gottef tTthi allotment of range nearly as soon, had we not had available
thl facilities and the work of these camps and these regional supervisor*.
m McivAT SALT LAID CITY: I just want to say "how-do-you-do" to you folks
in m/regi^'l went to compliment ^ ^^J^*^^ ™
to get the five-year program over. Ve are goi t - * this v,ork of range
2SS— TtSS ^asla^ou want, and no faster. 1 want to thank you all
for your cooperation in this matter*
MR rAttFFtfTER. How I have a report from the first desert range experiment
stati^nTe "Sad *s£tLJ and X v,ant a brief .description. It is contemplated
that the next national meeting trill be at Burns, Ore, so you can see ,hat a
range experiment station for stockmen is like.
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B-50
MR. CECIL, OREGOH: There is a first time for everything. I have stood he-
hind many kicking mules. This is my first experience hehind one of these things. -
(Referring to the microphone.)
Over in Harney County, as Mr. Carpenter has said, we have a very unique situ-
ation! We have the firs/range experiment station in the west. -Th is. *»£«P°-
rarily established, some time last year. A CCC camp was sot up and 'thru ^the
facilities of this camp, all of the work is being done, such a f^ the en-
closure, putting in fences, erecting permanent corrals, galling scales, in
fact, everything necessary toward a complete livestock operation.
The idea of this whole sot-up is to shovr and determine just what can be
dono to control grazing.
»,„„ o:f us Y,h0 iiVQ over in Harnoy County aro vory proud of this unique
Those ol us wno live over j restoration will be hastoned
situation and feel hopoful that, as a rosuiv, r„...0o
by many years.
Wion veu gentlemen como over to Burns, wo hope we will have the pleasure pf
shovriS Joujult vtot has boon contemplated. Wo aro proud of it, and are satis-
fiod that you will bo. ,
MR. CARPENTER: Gontlomon, at this tteo, I want to call on our good friend,
Secretary Walters, and sco if ho won't say a word or two to us.
MR WALTERS: My statements will be vory short. I wish to state that it has
HtZ l SS Tt oSstoo,. frlona., «» 4. «* «*««.!,, to .p.»o» .f tho
stockmon of tho West that somo of us ao.
Von.havo ^o,n. ^^S^Sr^W
^^^ou^lves^a1^? such £ to mo, spoils the future welfare of the
Taylor Grazing Act*
ing Act aro not in oarnost and do not dosiro ib.
bo again profitable and you might conduct iu ,-.- -~o pleasure
tburs you have in tho past,
., „ ^-r ,.,«vv-..- - ■h«iv at this time in tho day,
ity to servo you.
Sco of thoso thin£s, I havo had tho opportunity to ^o you in private.
I havo not boon able to shako hands vath each of you ^™™^^ ,nd the
like to state to you, as a v;holo the pleasure I have had in tho 8
manner in which you have conducted yourselves, and r.n. coniidcioo 3
the future of our program.
I thank you.
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B-51
MR. MoFARLAlfl?) OF UTAH: I just wanted to offer a short resolution. I bo-
liovo I can make you hoar, booausc the "mike" and I arc not hording togothcr very
well. . '' ' ;
To tho Honorable Harold L. Ickos, Secretary of the Interior, Washington, DC:
Inasmuch as tho Taylor Grazing Act has to do with land's situated in the Western
part of tho United States and used by citizens of the Western States and only
citizens of the Western Statos arc thoroly familiar with the conditions surround-
ing tho nocossity for the Taylor Grazing Act and essential to its proper admin-
istration, and,
Whorcas, this convention of delegates representing tho Yfostorn Statos which
arc interested in tho administration of the Taylor Grazing Act, has boon di-
rected and conducted by tho Honorable Ta A. Walters, First Assistant Socrotary of
the Interior and Fir. P. R. Carpenter, Director of Grazing, and,
Whereas, tho delegates assembled at this convention from their contacts with
the above named gontlcmon representing the Department of Interior believe that
they have a thoro understanding of the conditions requiring tho passago of the
Taylor Act noccssary and for its proper administration,
Nov/-, therefore, bo it resolved that tho delegates present at this convention
hold at Salt Lake City, Utah, on the thirteenth and fourteenth days of January,
1956, do sincerely thank the Secretary of the Interior for selecting such able
representatives of the Department of Interior and men who arc so thoroly
acquainted with all tho conditions and requirements for the proper administration
of said Act and with tact and ability to moot and discuss all phases of its ad-
ministration with tho delegates cither singly or assembled.
Gentlemen, I novo tho adoption of this resolution.
VOICE: I second the notion,,
MR. McFARLME: Then I will put the motion. ' All who favor the motion .will
make it manifest by a standing voto. Gentlemen, it passed.
(Applause.)
MR. WALTERS: It was r.ioro than kind of you, and wo appreciate it«
MR. CARPENTER: If there is no furbhor businoss, I will say that I have
thought about this meeting for seventeen months. It is quite a bit better than I
over thought it would bo.
I thank you, and tho mooting is adjourned.
(Adjournment at 5:45 PM, January 14, 193S.)
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District
Advisors'^
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DJVJSJOjN
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SALT LA)(£. CITY, UTAH
JANUARY 13 & 14* 1-93.^
JFfPi
INDEX
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FIRST DAY - Morning; Session:
Address of Welcome by Governor Henry H. Blood of Utah'. . . . A- 1 ,
Address "by First Ass't Secretary of Interior Tf A, Walters A- 2
(including messages fron the President cf the United States
and the Secretary of the Interior*)
Announcement of Order of Business by Director F, R. Carpenter. A- 7
Discussion - Grazing Fees . A- 9
FIRST DAY - Afternoon Sossion
Address by Assistant Secretary Oscar Chapman. ..,,„ . A-19
Greeting from Senator Elbert D. Thomas of Utah (Read by Mr. Carpenter),. A-20
Message from Congressman Edv/tird T. Taylor (Read by Mr. Carpenter.) A-20
DISCUSSION:
Local assessments. A-2D
Motion - "Who shall bo allovrcd to -vote.. . . . - A-22
Policies:
1. Chango in order of preferential classes for licenses0 • . . • A-23
Motion. , ■ - A-26
2« Division of dependont property into classos A-28
Motion. ., • • A-32
3. Should cuts rdthin a class be made on numbers or by
restriction of saason of use........ A.-36
4* Should temporary allocations of range be incorporated
in 1936 licenses A-3,7
5. Should commonsurato property be divided into classes
and definitely defined. A-42
SECOND DAY ~ Morning Session
Talk by Mr. Julian Territt, Assistant Director of Grazing B- 1
Recommendations of State Committees, follov;ing caucus:
Arizona, •«••». ...... '••••••••»• • ...... B- 2.
California - B~ 3
Colorado . . . , - B- 4
Idaho:. . B" 5
Oregon., ......... t • ............. o » o . ....... ....... B- 7
Montana. ............... ••• ....a... D~ '
' New MexioOo • *......♦.. B- S
Novada. .,. , * B~ 9
Utah... - B-10
Wyoming. •»••••».. % a..... B-ll
Talk by Director F. R„ Carpenter B-13
Lobbying * « , • B~13
Special rules of the rango recommended by district boards , B-14
Term Permits...... «. • B-14
Licenses as grazing privileges e. ... » ...... * ..*,......«••..♦»...»• • B-15
Placing responsibility on local boards,. .^. ..... . B-15
Enforcement of rules and regulations by Government agencies B-19
SECOND DAY - Afternoon Sossion
Telegram from Secretary of Interior regarding Assessments B-2^
Motion- Rango allotments in 1936 licenses...,.....*...*.. B-21
Motion - Division of dependent property into classes B-23
Motion and Discussion - Defining commensurate property. B-23
Motion (redraft) and Discussion - Rango allotments in 1936 licenses*... B~26
Motion (redraft) and Discussion - Division of Dependont Property
into classes • ••••*<>• B-29
Motion and Discussion - License Fees. ...,.,...,....••••»••••••• • B-So
Organization. •••••.*•»..*... ........ . - B-4*,
B 4>
Associations. ..»......»» ° .' • • - «■*
Improvement s«....p • • " °
Resolution of thanks - * B"51
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\ .5ECOMD -rVHhiUAL; '
i)j$-fRJCj AdVISOXS* LomUH£
' DIVISION .-Of ^RAUMa
£ L CAKH.£.MT£R ■" DIRECTOR.
a i-r i \yp r jtY ! IT AM
D£0£MJi£'R 9, lo, :]-]9 :1936V- :
I I
DISTRICT ADVISORS' CONVENTION
Salt Lake City, Utah
December 9, 10 and 11, 1936
FIRST DAY
Morning Session
(Meeting called to order at 9:15 a.m., December 9, 1936, in the
Lafayette Ballroom, Hot el Utah, Salt Lake City, Utah).
MR. F. R. CARPENTER, DIRECTOR OF GRAZING: You will recall last year,
Gentlemen, we were given a very hearty welcome "by Governor Henry H. Blood of
Utah, This year, Governor Blood Is unable to attend, but we are honored to
have with us in his stead, the Secretary of State, the Honorable M. H.I Welling,
of Utah. Mr. Welling, (Applause)
THE HONORABLE M. H. WELLING, UTAH SECRETARY .OF STATE: ■ Mr. Carpenter,
Ladies and Gentlemen, I have the great honor to welcome you to the second
conference of Grazing officials charged with the responsibility of adminis-
tering the national Taylor Grazing Act.
To those of us who have watched the unfolding of this program, this is an
impressive and an important hour. The program you are. considering was first
proposed to the Congress nine years ago by my friend, the Honorable Don B.
Colton, a representative of the State of Utah.
From that day to this we have had a large proprietary interest in the control
and betterment of the public domain. For years progress was slow, difficulties
at times seemed insurmountable. It was no easy matter for twenty or thirty men
in Congress to command the attention -nd respect of their five hundred associ-
ates and colleagues.
Success came with the passage of the Taylor Grazing Act and the setting up of
the organization which you gentlemen administer today.
Utah includes more public Lands administered under this Act than any State
represented here, or any state in the American union. In similar proportion,
we are grazing more sheep and more cattle than our neighboring states.
I sincerely trust that the cooperation you are receiving from the district
boards in this state is helpful to the general program. When it is realized
that three-fourths of the area of this entire state of Utah is included in
the lands which you administer, it must be obvious .that we in Utah are
vitally concerned with the policies which you adopt.
In recognition of these substantial interests, you officials of the Depart-
ment of the Interior at Washington, and representatives of the western public-
lands states have done us the honor of holding both of your conferences in
this city. May I respectfully invite you to make Salt Lake City and our State
the permanent headquarters for. the administration of this great law. Wo would
like to have vou feel that Salt Lake City is the Capitol of this great empire
of the public domain. I am sure our oeoole will bring to your deliberations
a spirit of helpful cooperation and support. This State cannot prosper except
through a proper utilization of our range and grazing lands.
Of first importance, it seems to mo, is the relationship of the Government to
the men who, for years past, have utilized the public domain as a means of
livelihood for themselves and the fostering of a great national industry.
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These interests are manifested here by hundreds of stock masters not ofttoialjr
connected with the administration of the Taylor Act, yet vitally concerned with
its provisions. Their lives and fortunes are involved.
Of almost equal importance are the l^"^^/***^*^^^!^! *"*
state has large areas of state holding lands intermingled with the public
domain. The segregation of these state holding lands for state use, as origi-
nally intended hy the Congress is, I am sure, one of the major- problems of the
future.
It is a happy circumstance that as American citizens, enjoying a background of
one Lndrefand fifty (150) years of free Government we come to thi 'confer-
ence table knowing that all of these interests can be settled with substantial
justice to the individual, the state and the nation.
In conclusion, may I extend to you personally, Mr. Secretary Walters, my con-
gratulations upon being sent here to represent the Secretary of the Interior,
Mr. Ickes. Alee to you, Mr. Carpenter, we feel largely indebted for the en-
lightened policy under which the Taylor Grazing Act has been initiated. This
vast emnire, Gentlemen, is your home, and we are fortunate to have in Washing-
Ion men who have grown up en the public domain and understand and appreciate
its many problems. (Applause) I ;
MR. CARPENTER: Thank you, Mr. Welling. Our friend, Julian Terrett;_
Assistant Director of Grazing, has come out from Washington today and he is
bringing us a message from Secretary Ickes and he is also going to make a few
remarks on one phase of the law. Mr. Terrett.
MR. JULIAN TERRETT , ASSISTANT DIRECTOR 01 GRAZING: Gentlemen:
"To the Second Annual Conference of District Advisors of the Division of
Grazing:
"I regret that pressure of official business and unforeseen complications in
my schedule make it impossible for me to carry out my original plan to attend
your conference in Salt Lake City. After, the pleasant and mutually profitable
conferences with your Advisory Board Chairmen in Washington last summer, I
had looked forward to another personal meeting with you because I *«flV"\
conference had paved the way for a better understanding of problems confront-
ing us in the administration of the Taylor Act.
"With two years of administration of the Act behind us, I remain convinced that
the Taylor Act is a milestone in land legislation and one of the most benefi-
cial and progressive laws proposed and passed during this Administration. I
have hM Lpfe cause to feel that my original confidence in the Dill was well
placed.
"I believe that you realize clearly to what extent the judicious administration
of this Act depends upon the cooperation of the western stockmen. I await
with interest the action taken by your Conference because I foe] that your
recommendations will he of great assistance to us during the coming year. We
have made substantial progress but we should not be too completely satisfied.
"We still have before us many knotty problems. I feel confident that you will
give these matters your accustomed consideration and extend to the Department
your carefully weighed counsele
Harold L. Ickes
Secretary of the Interior"
I now want to draw to your attention some little known aspects of the Taylor
Grazing Act.
The Tavlor Grazing Act has been so widely discussed in the west as a practical
measure for livestock men in setting up grazing districts and as a means of
leasing and selling the remaining public lands which are so s^^e^^o^°^°
be properly included within a grazing district, that some of those larger and
more far-reaching features have been commented on very little and, in iacL,
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are just now banning to (be observed by those who are in close touch with
the law.
The features to which I refer are those made possible by the langu^e in _
Sections 2, 9 and 12 of the Act, whereby cooperative agreements ^f******
between the Secretary of the Interior and local associations of stockmen,
state land officials, official state agencies, federal agencies and depart-
ments, with almost no limitation in order to accomplish the purposes of the
Act, which are stated in its preamble as follows: iquot..; ■
"To stop injury to the public grazing lands by preventing over
grazing and soil deterioration, to provide for their Orderly
use, improvement , and development, to stabilize the livestock
industry dependent upon the public range, and for other pur-
poses." (Unquote) , I
In the first meetings, where this Act was publicly discussed ln\tt» ^.^
astern states, many state and local agencies which had never ^etofore
actively cooperated with the Federal Government, were called into conference.
State boards of land commissioners, state fish and game ^^f^?££_
road land commissioners and local associations of •tookMn, all of whom hei
tofore had been individually pursuing their way as regards the handling of
land in direct relationship with the public domain, were invited now to parti
cipate in the benefits which might accrue from cooperative agreem en t with the
Secretary of tho Interior in carrying out the purposes of the statute.^
There have now been made and signed, a number of such cooperative «£•"«*•
of far-reaching effect. The first of these was .the now famous Few Mexico plan
for the Protection of wild life within grazing district. Another cooperative
agreemenTis that between the Secretary of the Interior :and th eOr.™ State
■ agricultural College, whereby the Range Experiment Station at oquaw Butte,
toegon, built and equipped by the Division of Grazing, iks been stocked and
is being operated by the college for the determination of proper range
practices.
,n ., , • a.\~„0A n f',r-i^aclnr- cooperative contract "between the
Mnrp rprpntlv there was signed a in.i icaoi'-u-,.-, oi ^r x . ....
Sec etary of the Interior and the Southern Pacific Laid Co*pw *^ «^of
allow the grouping and correlation of some four and one-naif million acres oi
checkerboard land in the states of Nevada, Idaho and Utah, and the public lands
interspersed therein.
At the oresent time there is under consideration a cooperative agreement
betweenPthe State Land Board of the state of Utah .and the Secretary of the
Interior, which will accomplish much the same purpose.
Then we have the cooperative agreements with local associations of stockmen,
of which in my own state of Montana, I am proud to say, there are now thir-
Teen (13) in active operation, whereby the public lands are handled lacon-
nection with the state and private lands with which they;are interspersed by
local cooperative associations of stockmen.
' These cooperative agreements permit a coordinated uae °^^Je^a£^e
tax default and railroad lands, which are so intermingledjfchat the proper use
of one cannot be made without use of the -other.
Cooperative agreements have been entered into with the ^Conservation
Service for the betterment of the range and to prevent erosion, with the
Biological Survev for the protection of game animal! and birds, and for the
extermination of' rodents and predatory animals ^V ^s l^w thin
Administration for the joint control of resettlement lands lying within
grazing districts.
As pointed out in the beginning, the field for cooperation is almost without''
timit The Division of Grazing stands ready to work for the oonsumma .««4
any cooperative agreement contemplated in the law and to «>?pe™te for the
public good, not only with the private and state agencies, but with all
Federal agencies and departments. I thank you.
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MR.' CARPENTER: Gentlemen, I feel that we hardly need any introduction
for the next speaker, who has the principal address of the day. He is our
good western friend, the Honorable First Assistant Secretary of the Interior,
Mr. Walters. ■' - _ ■
THE HONORABLE THEODORE A. WALTERS, FIRST ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF THE
INTERIORS Delegates to the Convention, Ladies and Gentlemen, It is with some
regret on my part this morning that I am not privileged to speak to you more
freely than I want and more direct, however, under the circumstances, it is
advisable that we relate to some extent, the accomplishments and purposes of
the Act and draw attention to the provisions and objectives of the Taylor
Crazing Act's accomplishments and results. ,
Less than a year ago, a month and three days less to be exact, we met to-
gether in this city on an historic occasion — the first conference of grazing
districts delegates from our ten western states. It is significant that that
first conference surpassed the most hopeful expectations in setting new and
high standards of cooperation between the' livestock men using the public range
and the Federal Government. It is my sincere hope, yea, it is based on a sound
belief that this present conference will bring forth greater benefits for all
those concerned with the public grazing lands than did the first one. In this
hope and belief and in the recollection of the very pleasant and worthwhile
association with you in the past, I am naturally happy to be with you again
at this second milestone in our broad conservation highway.
The Taylor Grazing Act is a part of the land history of our nation and bids
fair to be one of the most important of all of our land laws.
Coming as it did after every possible method of settlement and development by
private persons had been fully explored and used and all of the public lands
which were capable of producing anything to pay for local taxation had been
patented and put on the tax rolls, it dealt with a type of land- never hereto-
fore the subject of legislation.
The lands in grazing districts are the left-o^cr lands after three generations
of settlement — they are the dryest and pporest producing lands in the United
States. In and of themselves they have almost no value, in connection with
the private lands and water that largely control their use, they are indis-
pensable.
From this fact came the now famous preference clauses of section 3 of the act
whereby the grazing privileges of the public lands in grazing districts are
to be used first for the proper use of the private lands and water that are
naturally correlated with them. Such a land-use statute as this presupposed
that the proper use of the private lands and water was either a known fact or
one that could be determined. As a matter of fact this western country has
been so hastily settled that even few of the inhabitants know exactly what the
proper use of their land is. Lands which for many years were used to raise
hay became suddenly more valuable for beet or lettuce raising. Pasture lands
never plowed before became more profitable in cultivation when wheat goes
above one dollar a bushel. For the past thirty years we have seen our private
lands change in the.ir proper use again and again.
I recently looked at the first public survey map ever made of the United
States. It is a part of the files in the General Land Office and is dated
1866. That map was preparod within the memory of man:,' men now living, and
yet it did not show even so much as one government survey post in the States
of Idaho, Montana and Wyoming, and only a base meridian line in Utah where
the Mormon settlements were and in Colorado, Nevada and Nen Mexico just a few
surveyed townships where the gold mining activities were greatest. This is
cited just to show you one of the principal reasons why we do not know the
proper use of the private lands and water of the public range areas of the .
eleven western States.
i
With this far reaching and statesmanlike objective of working out a proper
land pattern for the proper relationship of private and public lands in the
West, it was only natural that the Taylor Act should not be put into immediate
operation so far as its land-use objective was concerned until that could
be ascertained.
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A method of temporary grazing licenses was found to be' authorized in the
broad provisions of section 2 of the act to take -care of the existing live-
stock industry until the proper use of the private lands and water was work-
ed out, ; This' is only a step in the process of fathering the data upon which
to base the distribution of grazing permits. You are assisting us, and in
fact doing the major part of the work of inventorying the lands, water, and
livestock now being used in connection with the public domain.
We are now for the first time assessing all of our range lands, private and
public, in an .endeavor to put them to their proper use, .which means their
right relationship . There is something almost awenoue about participating
in "a work of this kind which stretches so far into the future with its
results. This conference and probably many more will be necessary to com-
plete the program, and only the inhabitants of this great region, we call1
our home, years hence will be able to appraise the quality of our work and
whether it was done in a way worthy of the traditions of the pioneers who
first subdued the savage and wildlife of this area and who left to us this
task of saying what is the proper use of the private lands and water and
their rightful -relationship to those left-over lands which constitute the
great "national ranges11 of this country of ours.
We have made progress in the eleven months ensuing since our first meeting,
despite the fact that both our problems and the areas. bo be under the juris-
diction of the Grazing Division of the Department of the Interior have been
increased. As you recall, the Taylor Grazing Act was amended June 26, 1936,
and the permissible area of vacant, unappropriated and unreserved public lands
which might be brought into grazing districts was increased to 142,000,000 of
acres. Even though we of the West are accustomed to dealing in vaster acre-
ages than are our more easternly neighbors, this is still an enormous terri-
tory for us to administer. If these millions of acres were grouped together
an idea of their area can be obtained by drawing a line on the southern bound-
ary of Maryland and Pennsylvania, around the western boundary of Ohio and
- following the shore line of the Great Lakes and the Canadian boundaries back
to the Atlantic Ocean. All' the lands included between this line and the Ocean
— comprising the states of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts,
Connecticut, Rhode Island, New 'fork, New Jersey, Delaware, Pennsylvania, Mary-
land and Ohio, would equaD only the 142,000,000 acres. This gives us some
idea of the vastness of the region which is now, for the first time, being
brought into operation and its proper, relation with the land which has been
used and useful in the past in protecting the -Treat livestock industry of
the northwest.
As of November 1936, forty-eight grazing districts have been established,
totaling a gross area of 253,012,888 acres of which 110,000,000 acres (in
round numbers) are vacant, unreserved and unappropriated public lands. Of
these forty-eight (48) grazing districts thirty-seven (37) are now under
active administration and progress is being made in bringing under adminis-
tration the eleven (ll) districts which have been recently established.
Advisory boards have been elected in all of the eleven new districts and it
is anticipated that the administrative organization in each of these dis-
tricts will be fully completed in time to issue grazing licenses for the
season of 1937, . An additional district in Oregon is in the process of being
established and it is probable that in the near future still another dis-
trict will be established in Colorado.
There is a great deal more to the administration of the public grazing lands
than appears on the surface. To my mind, one of the most outstanding con-
tributions made by the Taylor Grazing Act and its wise administration under
the Interior Department is that through the cooperation of the livestock men
. themselves and the establishment of district advisory boards, a new contri-
bution to the American way of life has been made, a new contribution of
Federal Government administration. In handling a vast and complex situation,
on organization has been created on Democratic principles in which those most
vitally interested in the administration of the public resources have had and
are having a fundamental part. Through the cooperation of the district ad-
visory boards both the appearance and the actuality of absentee landlordism
on the part of the Federal Government has been avoided.
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You will recall that following the meeting of last January, the information
brought out through our discussions was used as the "basis in formulating the
1936 rules and regulations governing the issuance of grazing licenses. In
July of 1936 a conference of chairmen of the district advisory "boards was
called at Washington by the Secretary of the Interior, in order that their
experience and recommendations might "be "brought to "bear on the problems, in-
volved in bringing in of an additional 62,000,000 acres under the grazing
administration. The chairmen of the thirty-seven district boards then estab-
lished were asked for a frank expression as to the progress which had "been
made and for their recommendations on policy. In passing I may add, and it
is with pride t.'; b I do so, that no one of the chairmen at that meeting had
any serious objection to make to the administrative organization thus far
given or to the organization or the setup as to the organization which was
conducting the affairs of these grazing districts. Before they adjourned
they passed unanimously a resolution complimenting the Secretary upon his
administration and emphasizing their endorsement and pleasure in his recog-
nition of the principle of local autonomy and his appointment of men to jkey
positions in the Division who have first hand knowledge of the livestock in-
dustry and with privately owned property used in connection with, the public
domain as well as with the economic features and problems involved.
And to those who attended, I have a picture taken in front of the building,
framed by the -Geological Survey, and it is now hanging in my office, with the
name of each individual, aptly protrayed at the bottom of the picture*
I feel that those individuals passed resolutions which were more than the
ordinary run of resolutions passed by similar meetings. They did nc/t hesi-
tate to express their frank expression at any ti'me and any place, and for
that reason, the resolutions, I folt, meant more than as I have said, the
ordinary mine-run of resolutions, /
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During the last two years we have proved conclusively that home rule on the
range and decentralization of authority are not only practicable and workable
but that such a system, although new in dealings between the Government and
those using our natural resources, is one of the best yet evolved. This is
due in no small measure to the thoughtful and able work of the district ad-
visory boards,
I am inclined this morning to note from a report made from our energetic,
industrious and thoughtful Director of Grazing, Mr. Carpenter, wherein he
says: (quoted)
"A prime force in the administration of the Taylor Grazing Act is
the district advisory boards 3 consi-:;ting ox elected representatives
and stockmen in each district. There are 523 representative and
able 3tcokmen in an advisory capacity, serving on these boards.
"The advisory boards have been invaluable to the Division. Only j
those who have personal knowledge of the facts have any conception
of the amount of time and labor that members have devoted to the
work of recommending adjustments and allocations of range privi-
leges in their respective districts and in adopting fair and
reasonable rules under which those allocations coulcL be. made. A
great amount of work has been done by various board members, parti-
cularly the chairmen, for which they can never be compensated in
dollars and cents. These men have shown every evidence of fair-
ness in their recommendations, and many members have fought for
the adoption of certain principles even though the result would
be detrimental to their own personal interests. Desoite the
fact that the western range men often have been accused of using
the range in ruthless manner without regard to conservation prin-
ciples the boards have, in many instances, of their own volition t
recommended either substantial cuts in the carrying capacity of
their districts or a shortening of the season of use." End of • *
quotation.
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With such an organization- re have made real progress. There are those- who are
rot informed and vrho have said we have done nothing., . .-and there are others ..who
for reasons of their own maintain that we should have accomplished impo'ssibili-
ties overnight., solved every problem, and created a perfect organization and
today "be functioning as though we had "been in existence for a docpdc. These
are "but thoughtless expressions. You vrho are 'acquainted with t-ho work jn.fr hand
know that we have more than one objective and know that vo are reaching toward
those objectives with reasonable speed and without the necessity of paving the
penalty for uneconomic and too hasty progress.
As a part of a process report I shall deal briefly with 'uhe situations involv-
ing grazing leases under Section 15, exchanges under Section 8 and the public
sale of isolated tracts under Section 14 of the Act. In order to expedite the
issuance of grazing ] eases under the authority contained in Sectjon 15;, "on
October 22,' the Secretary eliminated all red tape and directed the Commissioner
of the General Land Offices to issue instructions requiring the registers of the
Land Office to take action immediately . on all pending applications. It will be
remembered that while Congress had under consideration the question of increas-
ing the acreage of the public lands to be included in grazing districts. from
80 '000,000 acres to 142,000,000 acres, it was impossible for the' General ,Land
Office to bake action upon pending applications because of the provision ,of the
law that grazing leases' may" be issued only for such lands as were so situated as ■
not to justify their inclusion in grazing districts. Immediately after the
issuance of these instructions, contained in Circular No, 1412, a number of ex-
perienced employees from the General Lcid Office wore detailed to several of the
United States District Land Offices, To eliminate the delay involved in the^
submission of formal reports by the Division of Investigations in each indivi-
dual case as had been required theretofore, coecial agents were detailed to the
District L,?nd Offices who ^ore faniliar with the lands in the various districts
so that they might act in an advisory capacity, especially in the division of
the range between conflicting applications,; Leasee issued under the instruct-
ions of October 22 are for one year only. /All action taken, however, with
reference to these .applications is subject to appeal.
As vou are aware, the rental fees charred on these leases is in harmony with
the" fees within the grazing districts. They were the fees heretofore establish-
ed.
While the regulations require publication for each amplication for 760 acres or
less in order to meet the ninety-day preference accorded owners of adjacent or
cornering lands the work has been simplified a\d exneditcd l-y the recent authori-
zation of blanket publications at Government expense by counties in those states
where any substantial number <f applications have been received.
IA view of the -provisions of the Act that only those lands so situated as not to
right of appeal to the Division of Grazing for a grazing! license to graze within
grazing districts when such are established*
I would like to make it clear, however, that in the event an application is not
awarded all of 'the lands applied for he -ill be fully advised as to the reasons
therefor and that the Register's action i-s subject to ti.o right of appeal.
Yi'hether or not -an appeal is filed his rights as to any lands applied for but not
included in the proposed lease will in cue course be adjudicated by the General
Land Office and such lands included in a supplemental lease to him if warranted.
In order to protect the oublic lands included in these grazing leases provision
is made whereby the Government reserves the right to have its authorized re-
presentatives enter the leased premises for the purpose of inspection and the
leases themselves are subject to cancellation for persistent overgrazing or the
use of the lar.ds in any other manner which causes soil erosion or for any pur-
pose detrimental to the lands or the livestock industry. ; , .*»
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According to reports received as of HoremDei 28 of this year, 2230 applications
for frying leases under Section 15 have >oen rejected, .757 leases have. teen
sent to applicants for execution, 327, leases have been; returnecVduly executed,
396 leases await the expiration of the publication period and 684 nave yet to
he considered. You tail note, that is as of Hovencer 28th. By this ime , the
runters which have teen executed or set out for execution, have heen largely
augmented, since the Land Off ice is no* in the process of executing tnese leases
and expediting action relative to. them.
Continuing our statistical trend for the moment, it will .interest you to know
that 423 applications for exchange of state-owned lands for public lands under
authority of Section 6 have been filed hy the States of Arizona, Colorado New
Mexico, Montana, Utah and VSyoming. Approximately two and one-half million acres
are involved in these applications. The averse selection list includes ahout
six thousand acres, although some embrace as much as. twenty to flit/ thousand
acres. •
Some of the applications for exchange have been rejected because of adverse re-
ports on the -round that their approval would interfere with the administration
of grazing districts. A considerable number of applications nave seen .rejected
for the reason that the selected lands rare vjitfadrasm or (otherwise not available.
Delays in the consummation of State exchanges have been due to the fact that a
large number- of the applications were filed prior to the issuance of the refla-
tions, which necessitated the f iliac of supplemental applications. Also, in a
large number of cases unsurveyed school sections were offered as basis for ex-
change, which base was not valid prior to the amendatory act of June 26, 1936c
The Amended Act provides that where the selected lands are within a grazing dis-
trict the base lands must be within the same grazing district, _ It has thus been
necessary to require amendment of many of. the pending applications by substitu-
tion of valid base. *,
Some of the States have taken advantage of the provision. in the amendatory ,a^
which' permits State exchanges on the basis of equal acreage, as well as equal
values. The procedure under the equal area provision makes unnecessary a field
investigation for the purpose of determining values, and where .a State elects
to receive title to the selected lands, with a reservation of all minerals to
the United States, no field examination is necessary to establish the mineral
or non-mineral characteristic of the land so selected. Under a recent ruling
of the Department it has been held that State-ovmed lands within reservations
or withdrawals may be offered as a basis for exchange under the Grazing Act.
This considerably widens the scope of exchanges permissible.
At the request of the State Board of Land Commissioners of Montana, the Depart-
ment has recently authorised the detailing of a representative 'from tne Divi-
sion of Grazing and from the Division of Investigations to cooperate with the
•representatives of the State in making tentative pl.ons for exchange of otate
lands. Similar cooperation will be extended to other States upon the request .
of such states as are interested.
Applications for the exchange of privately-owned lands have been less active,
but 37 have been received, four of which have been rejected and the remainder
are awaiting reports from the field- Only one application has as yet been re-
ceived for the exchange of railroad lands as such. This is due possibly to the
fact that some, at least, of the railroad companies have frozen security under
bond issues.
There has been but little interest sd far shown in Section 14 of the Act, as
indicated by applications received. Up to the present 641 applications have
been received, patents have been issued in 13, sales authorized in 5 and denied
in 457 cases.
The Department of the Interior and the Division of Grazing are making every
effort to overcome the situation presented by the checkerboarding or staggering
of the ownership of certain lands and its attendant administrative dilf iculties.
I am convinced that this particular problem, troublesome as it is, is capable
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of solution and if we continue such progress as we have already nacle we will
arrive at a satisfactory conclusion. As an. example of one approach to this
problem I may cite the cooperative agreements entered into by the Secretary of
the Interior, beginning March 17, 1936, with grazing associations in tne^State
of Montana, where the public lands constitute only approximately twenty-^five
percent of the area and are intermingled witjh state, county, tax default >, .
railroad and other privately owned lands . These agreements are adaptable for
use in any other state where a similar situation nay bo found to exist.
Realizing that permits could not be issued until a comprehensive and reliable
range survey is made, a survey which will show not only the carrying capacity
of the public domain ranges, but also the 'ownership of the private dependent
properties and the number of stock for which they are commensurate, the, Divi-
sion of Grazing has issued temporary licenses to those engaged in the livestock
business having dependent commensurate property with priority of use. To 'date
approximately 17, £83 licenses have been issued which have a class 1 rating,
covering a total of 7,553,476 livestock, composed of 1,644,434 head of cattle,
95,700 head of horses, 5,653,395. head of sheep and 158,947 head of goats.
These licenses are temporary, as you know, in character. In the main they form
a recognition that the dependent commensurate properties upon whicn they are
based are entitled to grazing privileges, .although the exact extent of this
grazing privilege has not yet been definitely and finally determined. Ehis
cannot be done until the range survey program is completed. However, the, range
survey program is well under way. Recent reports show that a total of 640
tewnshios have been surveyed in the ten western States, and, 6,162 dependent
property reports have- been made out of the entire number ^of dependent property
reports amounting to 14,063.
In the 37 grazing: districts where there is active administration, a vast amount
of preliminary work has been accomplished. In addition to range survey prog-
rams, just mentioned, a tremendous amount of range improvement has been .planned,
and a considerable amount has been completed. This worfc as you are a^rfc, has
been done largely through the C. 'C. C. camps under the control of the Division
of Grazing.
In addition to this, you are well acquainted with the provision of the law
which permits twenty-five percent (25$) of the grazing fees to be appropriated
■by Congress for the purchase and maintenance of range improvement on the public
domain from which the fees have been derived. These improvements, as well ,a3>
those made by the C. C. C. camps, have been made and located only after appro-
val and recommendation of the local advisory boards having jurisdiction in the
areas in which the improvements were to be made, thus giving assurance that
they would be practical in nature, properly located, and so constructed as to
give a maximum of use, protection, and benefit to the range. t
It will undoubtedly be of interest to know that in connection with the range
improvement work of the C. C. C. camps under the Division of Grazing that
estimates have been "made showing that we would be able to use properly and
efficiently, two hundred of these camps, each with a personnel of two hundred
individuals, which would be useful in carrying to a final consummation, some
of the most needed range improvements.
Some of us are interested in the conservation of wildlife on our public ranges.
Many of you already know of the Hew Mexico plan, an mentioned by Mr. Terrett, •
and undoubtedly many of you by this time are fa.iiliar with the wildlife pro-
tection program adopted by the advisory boards in the state of Oregon. A
detailed account of the Oregon plan would not be anpropriate at this time,
however, it contains a recognition of the ri-;htr, of and the need for game pro-
tection on the range. It calls upon the State Game Commission, Forest Service,
Biological Survey and all other interested parties to cooperate with the Divi-
sion of Grazing for the conservation of our wildlife. This plan has netwith
general approval, and it is now, being submitted to the advisory boards in all
of the districts throughout the ten western states with the exception of Hew
Moxico. . Its enthusiastic reception i's proof positive that the livestock men
as a whole are not only wildlife conservationists at '-cart but believe in the
conservation and development of all of those natural resources which contribute
to making the west economically, socially and industrially a better place in
which to live. More attractive, if you please, to the human family as a whole.
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In conclusion, let me assure you this morning that your deliberations during
this conference will be closely followed by Secretary* I ekes, who has requested
me to extend to you his greetings, and tihat the recommendations you make 'will-
receive the careful consideration of the Department of the Interior, in con- s
nection with the essential and proper administration of the range during 'the
coming year. I thank you. (Applause)
i
MR. CARPENTER: Gentlemen, I was taught to believe that in the taking of
much counsel there was strength. If that is so, there is going to be an "awful
lot of strength given to the administration of trie Taylor Act by such an1 assem-
blage as this, because I see before us today the men who are the most vitally
concerned with the proper handling of this law in the ten western states^ not
only in number, but also in the character of counsel we will £et, for I recollect
very well the words% of a very wise teacher under whom I sat. He said, there
are two kinds of counsel you could get in this world — the counsel of men who
made theirs and were trying to keep it, who were occupying the lobbies of hotels
and the plush seats of retired men's clubs. And the other' kind of counsel comes
from men who were on the make, trying to make their living and were in the 'heat
of the conflict.
As I look about in this assemblage, I realize it is this latter type of counsel
that we will got here today, and so I feel more .than ever, it is the kind to be
relied upon.
We are going to follow this order of business in this conference. There will
be a general discussion here today. Tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m. , you will
meet by states, and you will discuss the. state attitude on' these topics men-
tioned in the program, and there you will elect two representatives of a major
committee, which will meet in the afternoon to discuss each of those six 'great
topics. The major committees will meet in the afternoon and complete their'
drafts by night, and on Friday they will meet here again in the general assembly.
The results of the six major committees will be debated, adopted or modified ■
and that will complete the second annual conference of the District Advisors.
For this morning session, before we onen up the topic for discussion, the first
one is licenses, followed by permits, I want to make a brief statement in order
that you may orient yourselves and approach this in a way that will get to the
pith of the matter as soon as possible. The commonest remark I hear, as I
travel about from state to state and ask what, in their opinion, the Taylor
Act has done for them, is to say it hasn't done anything but slap a fee on us.
To look about on the range and to observe this act, without some consideration
and study, that might be accepted. However, before this body of men, who are
the co- laborers in this field with those of us who are in the Federal Govern-
ment, before that result is accepted I want to just briefly touch on one or two
things about which you may not have thought heretofore.
The Taylor Act has preserved the status quo of the time of the organization of
the district, that is, — no new operators have been allowed to como on and
start in grazing on the public domain. It is required that the old operators
only go until such time as we can determine by thorough and proper considera-
tion of the land. That, in and of itself, has been a proper protection to the
public domain, as well as to yourselves. I notice in the papers, and it is
true, that there has been a cut of some 800,000 head of livestocki. I do not
wish for a minute for you to think, and we do not think, that the end and ob-
jective of this act is to cut numbers of livestock. The end and object of \;his
act is to increase numbers of livestock. >
However, we stepped into a program which was slipping in a direction that we
were not able immediately to stop. I heard some figures from the Secretary of
the Utah Wool. Growers Association that astonished me. He had the figures of the
number of sheep in Utah since 1920, and, gentlemen, they have been slipping since
1920 at the rate of a million or less since 1924. That process wa3 started
before the Taylor Act was enacted and you cannot step into a decreasing range,
as the Taylor Act did, and arrest it in a minute, and so it will bo necessary .
for some time to make this adjustment and there may have to be a considerable
lessening of the livestock numbers because, as we know, unless this range
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reaches stability and has protection, there is no hope for any 'of us and that
means no,t only our livestock, but our private properties -that are dependent
thereon. p? not think that the Division of Grazing feels its existence will "be
justified "by cuts in the numbers of livestock. The Division of Grazing feels
that its ultimate justification is by increasing the numbers in livestock. ,
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We realize that livestock is the underlying basis of the agricultural system.
We realize that the total cash receipts from; livestock and its products in the
United States in the year 1935 exceeded the /total receipts of all agricultural
products combined by over some $700,000 .COO. That is to say, thirteen selected
livestock items and their products exceeded the seventy-eight other products,
which are cotton and tobacco and wheat and corn, and all the rest of them, and
not only that, but the livestock consumed the by- products of tho principal other
industries of the cov.nf.ry — the beet factories , the wastage from the grazing
fields, the stubble and the straw, and in a thousand other ways, livestock is
the one great supporting industry of this entire country. And for that reason
as the livestock industry prospers, so prospers the other industries of agri-
culture, of which it buy3 most of .its products and buys directly and indirectly.
!
How 'many industries would be here if tho products of the existing livestock!
industry and mines failed us? None, and so ultimately we hope to support, more
cattle and horses, sheep and goats than ever before.
3ut when we step into something that has been going down hill as this public
domain has, it takes some little while to get the matter adjusted and stopped,
and that is the reason we read those reports, which are of a co::nplex nature.
I am not going to recite here the by-products of this act,' but I believe we
have reached an all-time high for Government divisions in th'e-matter of coopera-
tion. We have entered into active cooperative agreements with associations of
stockmen. We have entered into active cooperation with great railroads con-
trolling a groat empire of land. We have negotiated cooperative agreements with
State Land Boards who own a large part of the public domain, particularly' in
this state.
Wo have entered into cooperative agreements for the handling of wildlife and
for range experiment stations, and in addition to those we have Government
cooperative agreements with the Soil Conservation and Biological Survey, and ,.
many. other agencies of Government. This action has spread out and now you see
focussed in this meeting the results of the work* • • '''
There are those who say we have done nothing but slap a fee on them.
The average life of the grazing district in the west is seventeen months and
twenby-six days. That leaves out the newly organized districts that are not
organized as yet. Seventeen months and twenty-six days is the average life.
It is questionable whether or not we have not exceeded everything wo hoped to
do, as it .seems to mo the main objective that we have reached is that we have
acquired a way of working together, and we have forever answered the age old
saying that I heard when I went around these states. People used to tell me
that cattle and sheepmen could not sit down amicably in a room and discuss a
subject together. That is a thing of the past.
Those men in this room have proved -it is a thing of the past. I have been in
plenty of meetings in my day where tho sheepmen sat on one side of the room and
the cowboys on the other. But I can't spot which is a sheopman and a cowman
in this bunch today. I am happy to see that. That is one thing we have oroved.
There is another thing we have proved, and that is s^cctenen interested in the
use of this range could be far-sight od enough to forego some immediate use for
the sake of preserving and rehabilitating the publi : domain. There are those
who said that was impossible — to forego one little blade to grass to lat it
seed down. They wanted to grab it off and use it this year and never mind the
future. The western men have shown that they are locking toward the future.
Then, lastly, there is another thing that we have demonstrated and that ia
these new districts that have been set up, have r ©-demonstrated it, in the
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inauguration of this system of administration, I consistently heard from very
substantial operators that the idea of "one man, one. vote" would T)e very, dis-
astrous generally to the larger outfits, that the hoard would he dominated by'
small two-by-four men, who did not know just what it was all about. Time after
time it was demonstrated not to bo so. Tine after tine it was demonstrated that
the western ran^e livestock men vote for the man, neither hie; nor little, hut
the man in whom they had confidence.
In these new districts set up, I met the, same objections. ""Don't turn us over
to the mercies of these flat-footed farmers" and the "flat-footed farmers" voted
the "best of any range men, I am told, in the new sotups that have come in.,
So, we have really qlcmonstro.ted the sound principles on which our Government is
"based, of one man", one vote, and the ability of the people to elect representa-
tives who will represent them. properly. Those things wo have demonstrated.
We now have a working machine and we ha-e a problem beio-o us. We have mouthed
it around long enough in our mouths until we know what it was ahout, until
now the time has come when we want to sink our teeth into it and know exactly
where we are going* This" industry will never hit its stride until we reach a
degree of stabilization, so a mo.n will know about where he is one year from now,
and will know where he is coins to be ten years from now, as well as one month.
That is our big objective. • i
That brings me down to the topic in hand, which is the matter of licenses and the
matter of permits. The two have to be token up together. I am gcing to sketch
out a little preliminary statement and then open the matter for discussion from
the floor. Before I do that I will announce certain rules that I believe will
make for our best progress in the discussion.
Do not make any mistake about the Taylor Act. The Taylor! Act was set up as a
land stabilization act and incidentally, and, of course as a direct result, to
stabilize the lives took* industry. It was set up to find out the proper relation-
ship of those public and private lands, and insofar as consistent with that pur-
pose to award priorities and orotect them and allow them to use the range. Now,
no range man could read that law and start in to administer it, because nobody in
this world knew what the proper relationship of the public and private lands was.
That relationship had been demonstrated by use. I have found some livestock
traveling a thousand miles to use a bit of land here with another bit of land
here. It had been established by custom and it had been established by cattle,
but it had not been established by proper inventories of all the properties of
the west. I realize the hopelessness of such situations.
I went into this work on September 12, 1934, end the third day I was in the work
I wrote the Solicitor of the Department and I asked hi- whether 'it was possible
to set up a preliminary setup to take care of the existing industry until the
public domain could be inventoried and to discover the proper relationship of
these lands, whether the powers of section 2 were broad enough to disregard the
mandate in section 3, which said that priorities and range privileges should be
turned in only after the land usages were required, because if that had to bo
done we would have to wait for three or four voars, until we found out what the
land was.
He said the powers in section 2 were sufficient that we could set vp sufficient
setup to make and to consider priorities and range privileges recognized and ac-
knowledged and as nobody knew what range privileges were, and as nobody knew how
they were to be recognized and acknowledged, we were told to find out and recom-
mend to the Department, and you have advised us plenty.
If you will look on the back of your program you will find the advice of thirty-
so^en (37) districts, all the way from half a year to ten years.- Call it a com-
posite if you like, call it a hodge-podge if you like, but it was done by practi-
cal people in a practical woy to take care of a situation, until the day was here
until we could go into the working part of the act and also to make a cushion or
shock absorber before the relationship of that land was properly worked out.
That has been your job and mine for the past two years, and that has been worked
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with laborious study and appropriation and conciliation. Our work in some eight-
een thousand (13, COO) specific cases in hundreds of meetings in which you men >
have staved long over union hours and worked, and while your work may not be
perfect, at least you have a machine which picked this thing up within six months
after the enactment of the act, within six months after the districts were set
up we have what is an American working machine*
i
Last year, you may recall, you met here and you took the instructions of May
1936 and you kicked some of them in the waste paper basket,, and we took, five
great results hack to Washington and incorporated them in the Rules of March 2,
1936, and under those rules we have been action They are net perfect „ They
are only a step in our program. We, at this time, can appraise those rules
and say what is wrong about the license method. : I .
You will find on the back of your prograii, rvt estimate prepared by the nan in
charge of Baugo Surveys, teJling about what tine each district with the;< present
personnel carfhave the data where any Governmental agency pan move in with- any
degree of sanity and try and say what the proper relationship of the land is.
You will notice that many of these districts are mnny years off*
tthen the distinction between licenses and permits are f.'.-ially understood there
will be. some who wi?.l never want to get on permits and some who will want to
get there tomorrow mcrninj a'o 7Ux).
That is what we wont to do here today, mainly to clarify. the difference, and
see which way re are going and I am trying to set up some kind of guidepost
with which we can judge itc
I recollect a Mexican who had. an old team of mules, and that Mexican and those
mules used to synchronize their, movements so you could not tell whether thec
were moving at alio You would have to get a long ways off and get a post or
tree between you, and then you could see which way they were going.
The man on the range does not know which way he is going, and I have also heard
seme well-informed men express the fear, that we were going too fast in this
matter, and that is another reason for this conference, in ^rder that we may
definitely face the issues and know what it is we are going to do0 We .are
ffoi-lK into this, as Secretary Walters told you., a oro-ram of making a true- land
use" in this country that is almost awesome, bee-use it will govern ourselves and
our children and our descendants for many years to come. I know of no other
country that has so much nuhlio land scattered around and that chooses to use
this public land for the special benefit of the private lands and water inter-
spersed-
ffo ask no such thine as the power of a sovereign. V;o know that the/ well-being
of ouv peonle is for the benefit of our sevecoign, because the people tnemselvefl
are the sovereign. And so, indeed., the crocus; results of the homestead law,
as has been stated by the General Land Office, .are the thousands of millions of
chimneys over Kansas, Kehraska and Iowa, where that pirn worked successfully
and by the up-building and the granting of title to those lands, that is wnat
made us the na.tion we arte
Mow, by the proper ascertainment of this public load that is not able to /be
deeded, even if :rcu wanted, became it couldn' t support taxation, we continue
in the ordinary program of :.ur imcric-m Government to neko the people prosper-
ous, individual well-being, and thereby moke the country what it is.
With that preliminary statement, gentlemen, I want to arnounce some rules here
that if you are not in accord with them, I would be glad to have them discussed.
I am going to ask each speaker when he gets up to announce his name and his
state. I am going to ask the spencers in front to turn a/ound end talk to the
'audience and net to me. I am gcing to ask thorn to talk in a loud voice and I
am going to ask those in the back of the norm and these in t.ae front ol the room,
I am going to ask those who do not hear to ray "louder" and then if we have M
many Haulers", 1 am going to oak thorn to cone up hero, to step xn front of the
mike, ffe have a loud speaker here which will take just an ordinary conversation,
and as some of you do not have a voice which will carry over tne room, I am
going to ask you to como up here.
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And ps there are a large number hero who .trill wish to he heard on these .subjects
I am going to hold time on you and 'no speaker will speak over five minutes^,
without the consent of the Chair or the assembly, and no speaker will speak
trace or, the same topic, as long as there are others who have not spoken wno^
wish to be heard. That is in order to make a fair debate and get all sio.es m-
All talks and all questions asked we will ask to be confined to the topic under
consideration. We are going to come to enforcement, improvement, range survey*
and many other topics this afternoon, fees and finances, but this morning we
wish to confine ourselves to licenses and permits, changes which we think are
proper and necessary in these rules and to bring out clearly here just what we
mean and which way wo are going.
Anyone who wishes to talk behind the mike is privileged to step up here and
apeak from behind the mike. I will .announce the first topic for discussion.
This is a general discussion. The members of the Advisor- Boards delegates
here, and others in attendance who are interested are more than privileged to
speak and ask questions on this subject, because we are sitting down now to take
counsel together, as we have been doing for two years, to try and clarify an
issue and the intriguing part of it is that there is no answer in the back of
the book and we have the interesting job of working it out step by step.'
The matter is now open for questions or remarks. Are there an/ changes in the
present license method of distribution, and furthermore, this topic is a matter
of great concern to this Department. The disparity in the rules of priority
between districts ~- the disparity in the rules of priority just over state
lines — what is your wish — that the disparity be continued or do yov think
it would.be more proper that we have the same priority date established here
for the United States or by regions of uso? (Applause)
MR. FRANK MO ARTHUR, SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA. (California Grazing Dis-
trict No. 2): Gentlemen, that is a subject which interests mo.
MR. CARPENTER: If you will turn please, so they will all get you.
MR. MC ARTHUR: I think that the priority rules should be established the
same all over the United States, the dates in which the priorities are to be
figured, the same.
MR. CARPENTER: Come on up here, Frank, and tolk. Frank is an old-time
operator from Northern California.
MR. MC ARTHUR: Ladies and gentlemen, this is- the first time I have talked
before one of these things .and I hope it will prove to be all right. Tne sub-
ject which Mr. Carpenter has suggested - that of priority - interests me.
In District No. 2, California, we dated it back five (5) years My personal
interest in the thing is this (I see Mr. Clarke and Mr. Jenkins looking at me).
Their message to me is that two years out of those five years I had no cattle
on that range, but that is a selfish end of it. And in fairness to the people
who own Land within the district or near the district I think that whenever
the priorities should be established they should be the same. *nd with that
brief statement, I want to thank you for your attention and will sit down.
Thank you.
MR. CARPENTER: He has given us an idea of the right way for a stockman to
talk — right to the point.
MR. MORONI A. SMITH, SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH. (Utah Grazing District No. 8):
I have never talked before one of those mikes —
MR. CARPENTER: "Think how many speakers we are going to break into this
today, friends.
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g MR. SMITH: Gentlemen, I happen to operate sheep in three different -states
here, Utah, Colorado and some in Wyoming. It rather gets me to think about what -
we expect to do in the shape of universal regulations.' It is my candid opinion
that the rules of priority should be universal in order to he legal* I rte't
think that this Department could moke me have a priority in cne st-.te that I
don't have in one state. I would ask for the same qualifications if. ore st;.to,
that I have in another state. That is the conclusion to which I havrs come, and
I think we will have to coordinate this thing "back to tho feoginning.
Priority in the use of the livestock has "feeen a late contention v/ilh most all of
the livestock men. What is the date for the consideration of the prior it" of use
of the lajid? That question is not settled. It has not "been settled either way.
We will have to get at a happy medium somewhere. When we talk about the priority
of use, that is a legal situation. . Any rules and regulations that the Department
may make which are not legal, will not hold, even if the whole body makes them, ■
if they do not conform with this act .or the common law that preserved tho use of
the public domain relative to priority of use of public resources.
In the beginning of thio act, right on the first line, it soys: "To stop injury
to the public grazing lands by preventing ovorgrazing and soil deterioration, typ
provide- for their orderly use, improvement, and development, to stabilize the
livestock industry dependent upon the public range, and for other purposes-"
These dependencies are all the livestock that was there at the creation of 'this
law. It is self-evident that they were dependent — you can't dispute thrat.
Now, I would like to see the Attornov General come out hore and help us solve
these laws and get them into a legal aspect.
Now, as to adjudication and ramification — I think adjudication is our most im-
portant question at this time so as the administrative laws can be more easily
acceded to by the definite facts. Then the law of adjudication — by tho way,
I have got a lot of priority in my ovn properties — owning about 50,000 acres
of ground in the three states. That is, I think, pretty near as heavy a land
holding as anybody has. .
But I want to see the thing get into a start right off, and not be like the
Forest Reserve. I remember it. They gave us first a ten-year permit, then they
reduced us here in Utah fifty or sixty percent. Thank you, gehtlbr.cn, .
MR. CARPENTER: Now, I didn't call time on him just because he mentioned
tho Forest Reserve. Nov, we have hoard from the cowboy and the sheepherder.
Both agree that priority should be made uniform, that is as to dates or rules,
'I or whatever it is.
'.'■
MR. J. E. CONDIT, HAGERMAN, IDAHO., (I-laho Gracing District' No. 1): You
have heard from the sheepman and the cowboy, nnd I represent the "flat-footed
j farmer".
MR. CARPENTER: Come on up here. I knew I would get in "Dutch" when I
talked about those foot.
MR. CONDIT: I nover stood before one of those mikes before, and I don't
know how I will make out. About this priority of right being the same all over •
I don't see how that can work. In the printed reoorts here, it says that over
fifty percent of the graziers own less than .fifty head of stock. I happen to be
representing that class of people, in a district where the priority causes con-
siderable trouble.
Cur Chairman here told you that the by-products t'.^-t tho stock u.uod and the by-
products of the farm went together. Now, in the Twin Falls country, along Snake
River, they are all farmers, with a small amount of stock, and this priority is
cau3inr: lots of trouble .
Men, before I got away from here I expect to introouce a r^s.olution, which I
don't suppose I will get to work — but I am going to ask for it, that the man
with less than twenty head of stock that has more than the proper commensurate
property, will be allowed to put that stock on the range. I thank you.
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MR, CARPEKTER: That is what nak&s a meeting. V{e have got all kind's of
people o
MB* GUS PAPPAS, RIFLE', COLORADO. (Colorado Grazing District No. l):
Ladies and gentlemen —
MR. CARPENTER: Come on up here, Mr. Pappas. You run in two states, don't
you? All right, Mr. Pappas, pack it on. -— .^
MR. PAPPAS: Ladies and gentlemen, this is now to me', and I don't know if
I can make it work.. In discussing the priorities in the matter, as Mr. , Carpenter
has said, we are goin*: to work together. I will make my statement todojf — a few
words for all you hero in this meeting.
I have followed this meeting since the Taylor Grazing Act was started, so, I say
to vou this, I know it is for the benefit of the livestock on the range and to
you people. This has besn what I have seen — what has been discussed >y the ,
Boards — I think it is important to everyone of us.
. , '*»
I nT a member of the Board on District So. 1 this year and I take my part in the
meetings, hut I think today is the tine for all of us ^o set this on a legal
basis and to satisfy everybody. So, what I say on District No. 1 applies on I,o. .
8, where the proper use of public and .private lands are both combined and people
having property in Colorado come down to Utah.
Now, we have some cases over there where the Advisory Board finds somebody half
a mile cut of the limitation where they have the* sixty-five mile rule. This is
the time for us to say about that one-half rule, or sixty-five mile, or one-mile
rule, and we should get together and then fix it up.
And, also the priority rights — for instance, there was a man in Colorado allow-
ed his stock on the public land 5n the western states, made, let us say, fifty
thousand or a hundred thousand dollars, and then he buys .that property in 19o7.
There is nothing to stop him investing his money, and there was nothing to stop
him when this Act was enacted in 1934. Sow, they w-it this man out and say to
him he will have to be a pioneer here of ten years or you can't use this range.
I had a lot to soy on this subject, but I have forgotten it , so I will thank you
very much for your attention.
MR. C\RPEI<ITER: Now, Mr. Paooas said a good bit in a few words. He is kick-
ing on the Utah 6 rule, that is the sixty-five mile rule, he says it is not right.
He is kicking on the rule that anybody who buys <iny range has to know beforehand
the date of priority.
We want to hear from you men as to whether or not you want any priority role, or
any rule.
MR. XMUEER GILMER, METROPOLIS, NEVADA. (lTeva«3a Grazing District No. l) !
Ladies and gentlemen —
MR, CARPENTER: Ever:' man wants to hear .vou. Come on up and stand up here,
please.
MR. GILMER: The thin- that comes to my mind is that the conditions are so
very different in each district. The Advisory Boards have made the rules for
each district. It seems to me that the traditions are very different in each
district and that the priority rule that mi;;ht apply very well to one district
might be very objectionable to another district, and I am in favor oi each dis-
trict making its own priority ruling.
I don't think that two-year rule would be applicable to Nevada and perhaps our
Nevada 1 rule mi,:ht not be applicable to Utah. I don't see why the Department
of the Interior can't uphold the priority rulings, just as they do the livestock
setup. (Applause) I thank you.
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LIR. MC ARTHUR; What, priority rule hurts anybody? You have objected to
It, "but how does it hurt you 7 ... /
■ ■ I
MR. G-ILMSR: I think it will hurt other people, "because it, will hurt me.
MR. MC ARTHUR: Well, if you don't have it, it will hurt me.
MR. GILMER: It will hurt "because our conditions are so different, TJiere
is a very long period in Nevada, and a very different condition will "be found
in Utah and Colorado. A priority rule of five years in ITevada mi^ht not suit.
It is roing to hurt the fellow in Utah. On the other hand, if there is a short
priority rule it will hurt the fellow in Nevada. The Advisory Boards Hajve , xiade
the priority rules and I am in favor of those priority rules for each district.
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::R, R. J. C:NWAY, CRAIG, COLO; (Colo. Grazing District No.. 6): I "believe I
.can talk loud enough, without going up there. If I got up there and looked over *
this room, with all these faces, I might get nervous. " , \
i
I helieve in priority, absolutely. I "believe it is. too sacred a thing to "be used
as an instrument to deprive users of the range , who are dependent on the range
for its proper use. 1 am in favor of the priority, where it can be used consist-
; ently with the land use program, and I believe it can.
MR. J.C.CECIL, SUNTEX, ORB. (Oregon District Ho. 2): We, \in Oregon, have
adopted a uniform rule of priority inall of our districts. We have adopted two
consecutive years out of five immediately prior to June 1934. We feel that the
uniform rule is to the best interests of all of us, because, in our state ~ and
it must be true in other states Uw we have men who graze both in Oregon and in
Nevada, and in Oregon and in Idaho, and, unless we have some uniform priority, it
will be very difficult to adjust these border line cases. Otherwise we wouldn't
care what priority rule you adopted; we could use our two out. of five rule, for
' our own satisfaction and convenience. I-
MR. JAMES L. NIELSON, FOUNTAIN GREEN, UTAH (Utah lir.trict No. 2): I be-
lieve'in priority, as this gentleman over here said, and I believe it is a sacred
thing, but I do believe we ought to be nearer uniform than we are. I am a dis-
trict advisor in Utah. We have a ton-year priority. All the rest of the dis-
tricts have a two-year priority. The district on the south of us has a two-year
priority. We are on the long end, and I think we are too long. I believe we
should come nearer to uniformity on priority than from six months to ten years.
There can not be that much difference in the different districts. In districts
' such as Utah Nos. 1 , 2 and 3, I think the conditions are' exactly the same, or
so nearly the same that those three districts at le^st ought to be uniform on
their priority. *** i\ I iw
MR. CARPENTER: I want to say this, so we can keep on the topic: Mr. Cecil
mentioned uniformity between the districts within the state. Really, the topic
here is uniformity between the states in order to make priority uniform thruout
the United States, because there are no state-lines that are not crossed and re-
crpssed with livestock, and the particular tnpic for discussion how is whether
there should be uniformity thruout the ten states. If we can reach some kind of
majority opinion on that, then I think it would be proper to take up a suggested
rule to the Department as to what date should be used, with the least disturbance
to the industry.1 -
MR. WALLY MATHIS, ARIZ. NO. 1: I don't think that -we can fix a uniform time on
i priority of use thruout all of the western states. I think it might be possible
for districts, where their interests are overlapping, to '.get together on some uni-
form time. But I think our conditions are going to be sosvaried and so different
that it will be difficult to work that out in justice to all the licenses, and to
make a uniform priority date. I think, in some places, it would open the way for
people to compromise on something, whore it might take care of people who need to
be token care of. People who have gone out of business 10 or 15 years ago may
come back in the district and resurrect something they have abandoned 8 or 10
years ago and sell it to someone who is trying to work it out, and he would have
to buy it to stay in business, I think it would work a hardship on some who are
entitled to stay in, to benefit the man who has quit years ago*
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MR. CARPENTER: I might say, in explanation, Mr. Mathis runs down on the
"strip" , and when he talks about "years ago", he talks about cld-time wate* rights
being sold out to take care of old operators, I believe.
MR. STYLIAN STAES, PRICE, UTAH (Utah District No. 7): If we are going to
have a general rule on priority, I would like to see the question very carefully
discussed first. I recognize the fact that all of the Boards have different rules
on priority, but this is a rule that must, at some time, become uniform, and must
be regulated. If you give us the opportunity to act at our pleasure, to our in-
terests and to our purposes, we will work with you better than ever before. I
firmly believe that we must find a way to be uniform. I do believe that it should
be worked out so there will be no hard feelings on the part of any members of the
boards, but there must be some uniformity.
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MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Staes is in favor of a uniform rule. Lot me say, gentle-
men, that we didn't know what lack of uniformity we would have when we turned
these boards loose to make recommendations to fit their conditions. If you will
look on the hack pages of your program, you will find it shows these variations.
This is the first t?.me we have had an opportunity to sit down and consider all
these variations. 3?or that reason, this is the proper time to decide.
We will not vot^ on this question this morning. Th:5 s 6.iscdeslon is directed par-
ticularly to members of the licenses committee , The licenses committoa will meet
■ in the afternoon, tomorrow,, and then, the following day, the raattei will bo
"brought hack and finally decided in this convention.
JUDGE COX, UTAH; I am opposed to uniform regulation and uniform priority
at this tine, for the following reasons: I believe it will amount t<i an opening
wedge whereby you will d* away with local autonomy, so to speak, that has been
given to the livestock men under the Taylor Grazing Act. There are two or throe
fundamental things in that Act that we considered in giving licenses — priority
of use, commensurability of land and water, and propor usage of the range. If
you nako a uniform rule of priority, why not make a uniform rule of land usage
and commensurate rating Of land and water, and, if you do that, you might as well
do away with every local board in every district, because, once you unify things,
there is no need for a board.
The very principle of the Taylor Grazing Act was bassd upon the fact that we had
different problems in different grazing units in different states and different
districts. You might as well do away with all the districts, if you are going
to unify and centralize things. Why have 37 districts, or whatever it is? Why
not only have one district, under uniform rule, with priority and land use in
all of it" uniform. That is the othor extreme, I believe, from local autonomy.
I believe that there are local conditions, wfrich are different in "he various
districts and states, and at this time wo are not ready to have a uniform rule
of priority, I believe it. should be voted down.
MR. CARPENTER: I will say this, before I recognize the next speaker: I
think nono of us want a fascist state here. We want to keep our local autonomy.
But renomber, we are working towards a permit system, in which each particular
piece of land and water i3 to have its proper use worked out, and that is to bo
the governing feature of term permits. So the time will never como , regardless
of what is done with priorities, when the Taylor Act will not take into consider-
ation all of the local differences, all of the degrees of dependency of every
piece of land, all of the various values of commensurability that vater should
have in the south, for instance, and food in the north,
We are now talking about the desirability of a uniform rule, which is being given
precedence in the licenses, until such time as we got on to permits, and you
should bear that in mind. Wo are not going to destroy this Act whether we make
the priorities uniform or not, because the big and controlling feature is going
to be the land uses.
MR. ED MAHAZFEY, GRAND VAIiLEY, COLO. (Colo. District No.3)i-It is hardly
worth my while to walk up here. I just want to' ask a question or two, I realize
there is a difference in grazing districts, and these differences have to be
taken into consideration. But I can!t see whore it would work a hardship on one
district any more than on another district, to comply with a uniform priority of
use. There are sevoral gentlemen spoke on that subject. Thoir opinion is that
it would work a hardship, and they think it would work a hardship. They haven't
shown why it would work a hardship on one district any more than on another, in
this priority of use. On seasonal use, I can soo that very plainly, and some
other things that might cone up within the district, but, on priority of use, 1
would like to have those who discussed that oxplain why it works a hardship on
one district m.oro than on another, I feol that we should have a uniform priority
of use thruout the different states, and not have different priority of use for
different districts,
MR. A. H. ANDERSON, UTAH: I have listened for some time to thi3 question,
pro and con, as to whether we should havo tho priority rights universal in the
different districts. I on speaking for n group of men from southern Idaho and
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northern Utah, who are at present grazing in the winter season in Nevada Grazing
District No, 1. We have about 75 or 80 thousand sheep. I want to illustrate to1
you gentlemen just what this priority question i3 doing to us. Most, if not all1
of these men have a priority grazing right on the public domain of some 30 or 40
years, some of them Iosb, tut, sono seven or eight or nine or ten years ago, ye
wore overcrowded down in District 2 of Utah, and there was more roon and noro
grass over in Nevada. We moved over and commenced to graze.
Some of us have an eight or nine-year record of grazing in Nevada, and say 32
in Utah. Now, the Taylor Grazing Act comes along and finds us grazing in Nevada.
They pass a priority rule of ten years. Utah Districts Vand 2 have a different
period of years — two and three, I understand. Now,, we have "been away lon£
enough from Utah that they don't want us. We have "been away eight or nine years.
I can point to three men' in this audience who happen to come under the nine-^year
rule. They have been away from Utah nine years; consequently, Utah don1 1 v,ant
them, Nevada says: "We passed a ten-year rule — wo don!t want you; you don't
"belong here. " . '
These men have investments in commensurate property, very heavy investments. I
would say that that particular district — southern .Idaho and northern Utah ■*-
have heavier investments in commensurate property than any other section of this
immediate west, I think we are men without a country. In my particular case, I
own my own range. I don't run on the forest reserve. I have investments, pri-
vate holdings, range lands and it is a very heavy investment. Part of It I have
only owned seven years, the rest of it ten yoars, hut, on that part of my prop-
erty that I have controlled only seven, years, I have "been denied a permit in
Nevada. These other gontlemon, in the same group t that have nine yoars, were
denied ontiroly for all their holdings.
It looks to me like, as the gentleman "before ne said, the priority right should
he universal all over the grazing west.", It won't work any 'more hardship on the
man in Nevada No. 1 than it will in Utah No. 1; the same condition exists. If it
is wise to have it limited to two years in District 1, Utah, it should ho Just as
wise to make the priority rule two years in Nevada, and vice versa.
If I had owned my set-up for six years in ono district, it ought to he just1 as
good as if it was owned for six years in another district. ' Our investments are
there , our priority dates "back nans'* years, 'hut v/e happened to leave one district
and start coming into another district to graze, hut those linos that the govorn-
nent drew, and calls district lines, leaves us out and drops us into a district
that says ten year priority, "wo don't want you". Then the other district says
two years, and we have "been away more than two years, and wo are loft without a
country. I think, hy all moans, the priority, rule should he uniform in the en-
tire grazing west. . \- • . . ,!
MR, CARPENTER: Mr. Mahaffoy wanted to hear from somebody who had been hurt.
Now, you have heard from somebody who has been hurt.
MR. OLIVER LEE; Alamogordo, N.M. (N.M.District 5) I just arise to a point
of order.. WQ have been hearing from individuals as to their opinions. It seems
to mo that wo might not get the right consensus of opinion in that manner. A nan
rising to speak should represent his grazing district or his state. If we are.
going to listen to the individuals, over seventy-five percent of the people here
will not rise to talk on this question and you pLon't know vrfiat they are thinking
about.
MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Lee has raised the point of order. He feels that the
discussion should bo limited to those who represent diatavicts or states. If I
did not announco it this morning, I meant to announce that this morning' s session
would be open to individuals, but that the closing session, and\before the vote
is taken, will be confined" to delegates. That is, to the district advisors pres-
ent, and, in the committees, the voting will bo limited to those1, men. But, at
this time, we wish to hear from: any aggrieved individuals. J
MR. LEE; With that understanding, I withdraw my objections,
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MR. JOHN ETCHARD, TAMPICO, MONTANA. (Mont. District No. l) : Inn speaking
partly for myself and partly for the Montana delegation, who realize the necessity
for uniform priority Five years is about the average that we want to go, prior
to the enactment of the Taylor Grazing Act. That is all. I have to say.
MR. JOHN McMURRAY, OAKLEY, IDAHO (Idaho District No. 2.): I wmt to qualify
by remarks "by saying that I am not in a district that has boon hurt. We have not
been a district long enough. In other words, we have just been hatched out, and
I or.! here with others, representing District 2 in Idaho. I am for priority of
use and I am for local administration. I think that those men who havo to; drift,
over state lines have a grievance here. I don't soo why that can't be adjusted
between the different boards of the state, and lot us control our own administra-
tion within our own boundaries. We havo three districts in Idaho, and I would
say there is the same condition existing in other districts. Some of the con-
plaint was that our district was too large.
The folks at home want local control. I think I can speak for the small men in
our district No. 2, and that is ho would like local control. Ho thinks that this
board will be entirely fair, that they can sit there on the hearth stono and work
out their plans best for their condition. Why can't you men that have a grievance
get together on state lines. I think you have a grievance, but why take away our
local control.
MR. GUS PAPPAS, UTAH: I want to ask you about state rights, Y0u said what
we want is local control. Aj.e we going to have a state fight or what? Why don't
you realize that every one of these states is in the United States.
MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Pappas raisod the point' that we iive in tho United
Statos as well as in the state. I wish to say, gentlemen, in order that we don't
got off on a tangent on this, ' that tho controlling feature for the issuance of
permits will be the proper use of land, and we are in no danger of having one
hard and fast rule for all permits, regardless of priority.
MR. McMURRAY: I would like to tell those people that I am representing my
particular district, and I am telling you what they would like. I think that
would be almost a hundred percent. I am not an attorney general and I don't know
the constitutionality of these districts. . They are just being set up. But I
can't understand why those advisory boards can't get togother, where they overlap,
and have an agreement between them.
MR. CARPENTER: I am going to try to answer that, Mr. McMurray said he was
the member of a' board of a new district. Many of you men have beon on Boards now
for two years, and I daresay any member of a board who has served for two seasons
realizes tho almost insurmountable difficulties of crossing over a stato lino
where the districts end'. We have tried to get boards together whore the priority
conflicted, and, when they are all thru, they fail to. reconcile their differences
and, for that reason, many of the men here feel there should bo one universal
rule.
MR. McMURRAY: Is that more important than the local rule?
MR. CARPENTER: No, it is not, and this, if adopted, will be a local rule,
adopted by the localities in the interests of stabilizing the livestock business
in order to follow the general procedure of livestock which cross and recross
state and district lines.
MR. JOHN I.:. PRU1TTT, CHARLESTOWN, NEVADA (Nevada District 1.): I am a member
of the District No. 1 board, of Nevada. We started in to handle our first year .
without very much priority proceedings. T^e result was, whore we found —
especially on the winter sheop proposition — we found all the sheep in Idaho
wanted to come over on tho Wendover desert. We never got anyplace until wo made
a priority rule. We finally compromised on the state law, which was eight years
prior to two years ago, some time. Even then, I think that we found wo were
pretty badly crowded, and we will have to eliminate. In fact, we did eliminate
some on the Wendover desert. In our own district, wo have no trouble at all. But
wo believe in priority over there, and tho more: priority wo get tho better it
will suit us . ".'»•.
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MR. CARPENTER: There is no question about all of us believing in priority,
"but the question is whether there should be, under this liconso method, sono uni- _
fbr-M' priority in the different states. M
MR. A. D. BROVNEIELD, FLORIIA., N.K. (N.M. district No. 3); . I think that. we
will defeat the ontiro purpose of the Secretary if we,- attempt to make a uniform
rule on priority. If we can say right now that we are willing and ready to
throw ovorboard all priority, I » think every nan in this house would jump up and
say; "No, we don1 1 want that done.11 Why should we have the same priority in Now
Mexico as we- have in California or sono other stato. Why have advisory hoards if
you don't give them some rules and regulations whereby they can. control condi-
tions in their own district.
I think it is all right for advisory "boards to work in harmony, hut not have any
advisorjr hoard cay that the priority in one state should govern the priority in
another state. If so, wo night as well do away with the advisory hoards and have
one control the entire ten western states. We do not have equal state statutes
cdnt rolling the public lands; then why throw out the. rules that the Secretary has
given us. I do not have the consensus of opinion of all of the New Mexico del-
egates. However, New Mexico has the least priority, I believe, of any state,
with the exception of that one-half year priori vy. We certainly, should not, have
a uniform priority date. , !
*
MR. CARPENTER: I want to say, in explanation, gentlemen, so that you will
understand thiss In New Mexico, the priority date is January 1, 1934 in all
districts, and that is probably the least priority date. . Now, I am not going to
propose here that we throw all priority out of the window, because I am not. going
to start a lynching party. I know the way you feel about it. But we are dis-
cussing the question of diethor we should reach .a uniform priority date, at least
as to crossing stato boundaries. In Now Mexico, we do not have the sane ques-
tion. Their allotments are pretty well worked out and they have a priority date
that is suited, but the states where a nan, in the regular course of his .opera-
tions uses two or three, states, it is a most acute question. »
MR. WHINNERY, COLORADO: I might say, in the beginning, that I happened to
hoar something down here in the lobby today, oarly this morning, that substanti-
ates just what Mr. Carpenter told us at the start of this meeting, that he can no
longer distinguish which is a sheep man and tfnich is a cattle man. I heard a man
down here ask a girl at the- dance what was all this meeting about today. Hex.
answer was that "it is a mooting of the grazing beards under the Taylor Act."
"Oh", he said, "that means cowboys." So I think that is a great compliment to
the sheep men. I
In the first place, I don!t believe that this question cuts very much ice. I
toy a it that any rulo we ad.opt now can not bo retroactive. We have been under
operation of our rulus for almost two years. In Colorado, there is now a uni-
formity of time as to priority, almost. iFor instance, I find that all our dis-
tricts there are two years priority, excepting No. 1 requires three years. Ihon
No, 2 only requires a half year. Now, knowing 'the members of the advisory ,
boards of Nou 2, I believe there was a good and sufficient reason for that re-
quirement. Therefore, if we change the rule now, I believe., Mr. Chairman, wo
will only be accomplishing this: that we might open a deba'cable question to some
people who' have already been denied permits or licenses. Those who have already
received licenses would almost come under any general rulo of priority. .
So I can not see just where wo are getting if wo take this out of the hands of
the advisory boards. I am sure those of U3 in Coloradc donH care. I am sure
any general rulo will be higher than most of us have agreed." When it cones to
voting on this question, I may have something more to say, but that is all I want
to say at this time at the goneral meeting. Y
MR. J. PERTflTS, OVERTON, NEVA.uA (Nevada District 5): I an U)cn Perkins of
Clark County, Nevada, District N0. 5, which is one lake Mr. Murray mentioned. It
is a now one, and I believe that Daniel Webstor must have had in m.md that par-
ticular part of the United States "when ho objected to acquiring this western ter-
ritory , because, in' a great many places, thero is no possibility for livestock to
exist. In speaking of property righto, common sur at o property rights, priority of
rv« -: it i • ' • - ;
;
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irtiiM
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righjts, I "bolievo that , in nearly every or.o of tho different states who are, "*
af footed, t!icy havo different periods of tir.o in which to. acquire rights. In
Nevada, wo have what is known as tho state water ri^itV, and wo havo with1 us hero-
a state ongincor from whom. I' would liko to hear later in regard to those rights. '
Many of our cattl onion and sheopnon havo acquired rights in the State of Nevada at
considerable cxpenso and they have used the public domain in collection with
those rights, which they have had years and years, When it cones to na&ihfc-'a
two-year period, and someone with connensurato property rights in tho stato of
Utah or Idaho, and coning over into Nevada and having an equal ri$it with1 those
people who have boon there years *\n& years* -it i-s hardly justice, and I on of tho
opinion, as has beon stated here bof ore, that m$\ district should formulate its
own rules and regulations in each state.
Those advisory boards are able to. determine what would bo applicable in one dis^
trict and what would not, and, to make a general rvii0 0f ^^ j don»t think it
will over work out satisfactorily. The Taylor Grazing Act, as has boon stated,
is for tho benefit of tho whole. Now, it is going to take sono very caroful
thou^it and consideration. Y0u have got to forgot yourself in the ratter and re-
cognize the other f ellow1 s right alone with your own, and, if it is ovor to bo "'
nade a workable projoct, we .have got to give and have got to take. I know tho #
gentleman here a while ago spoko of poople fioins out of business, forced out of
business, that all they havo loft is tho rights they havo acquired to their
water rights in certain crazing districts.
If they wish to cono bade in ten years, or twenty years* if thoy want to cone
back to the state, why shouldn't they be recognized? Why should sonoone coning
from another state absorb all that thoy havo loft? These are questions that I
think the commit too s will have to thrash out, that* are appointed, and they will
havo to be broad enough so that they will strike a happy nodiuu for the benefit
of both tho sheep and cattle, as woll as coats and horses. I
fcffi. CARPENTER: I wont to soy a word of explanation, bocause Mr. Porkiris
has raised a very vital point. H0 lias raised tho point that, understate laws,
which distributod the ranee in the absence, of fodoral legislation, ncn have de-
pended on their rights, and that is all they have. In Nevada, the nan who did •
not developo wator on the rone© i^ 1926, ran on thcro as a crininol. That is to
say, he violated tho crininol statutes of the state. That was their range
rights. Ko fools that those rongo rights should be recognized "by the Taylor Act.
TTo realize that tho suprene court has rocognizod the state laws on ranges. These
uses have beon rocognizod. Now, along com.es, Mr. Porkins says, this Taylor Act,
which supersodos all state legislation, and tho quos':ion now is how wc can rako
a shock absorber in the transition poriod fron tho tir.o in which you operated
purely under state laws and not fodoral laws, and whothor federal'. law lv\3 flexi-
bility enou^i to consider these state laws. Heretofore i'heoe boards havo boen
considering their 3tate statutos, and the quostion we arc deciding here is whothor
that doesn't cause r.oro grief than it does good.
Mr. Anderson told us tho grief it has caused then. I5r. Perkins will toll us tho
good it does those that have it. It isn't going to suit everybody, but tho quos-
tion is whether we are going to allow inter-state r.ovenont to run un^or tho sLane
priority rule in two or more districts. Each board sticks on what they think
their own state rights arc, so the quostion comop up as to whether the Department
should not find there is noro grief in allowing this grazing in dicparity than
there would bo da:v;er in allowing a uniform rule.
MR. JIM SMITH, CENTRAL, ARIZ. (Ariz.District Eq.4) i The question this morn-
ing ic a very grave ono. I think we all appreciate that. I represent a district
which, according to our schedule this morning, shoes' our survey is complete, and
we havo issued grazing licences unJ'.er a ruling perhaps nearer tho happ^' nodiur. of
the ups and downs of various periods. However, I think — liko the gontlonan who
spoke, Mr. flhin-\ery — I believe that, if you attempt now to go back and. make
those rulings rotrooctivo, you are going to causo a lot of griof for tho boards.
You arc going to cause a lot of griof for tho department of tho Interior, and it
is going to cruse a great anount of . grief to tho entire grazing poriod, rnd I can
see a^ groat amount of grief that is going to bo caused hero todoy in reconciling
tho views of all the non and wonon ropresontod horo today. Now, as I say, wo
havo issued our grazing licenses on a basis of two years out of sovon. If wo
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start in again — wo have had some little hell down in District 4, Arizona, and
wo don't want too much more. How, if we are going to do tniq, let's do it now* ;
Let's not wait one year or tv/o years. My opinion is it should' havo "been done,
"but, if it lias not "boon done, ray opinion is it should not "be done.
MR. CAEPS1TT3R: Mr. Smith, fpoxi one of the newer districts in Arizona, feels
that, if thoro is anything done about this, there should "be no longer delay. You
roalizo <thnt the longer we go v/ith different systems of priorities, the worse
shape we get in to Change then, "because rights acquire on every change in rule.
Ho says, why wasn't it dono.bofore. i The reason wo3 "because I didn't know what
the hoards would do. Wo didn't know what the differences wero. So now we know
what tho different districts wantod.
.! i *
MR. McARTHUR: Will ycu ask Hr. Smith this question:, if some "board raado a
wrong ruling, would they "bo willing to change it?
MR. CARP31TTER: I will answer the question myself. The "boards have "been
very willing to change their rules when they are wrong. Sor.e pooplo complain
they change their rules too many times. Ehfct is necessary, where they are just
composed of human "beings and can not get them right at first.
*
MR, STANLEY IT/ATT, COLORADO! , Thoro are two sides, of course, to this pri-
ority matter. It seems to some of us that there is a wide difference in priority
in states — too wide a difference. In the district which I represont, it prob-
ably wouldn't moke any difference to anyone who has been issued a license in that
district. H0wovor, when these "boards decided on priority, did they not take into
consideration the angle of tho fewest number being hurt? Mr. 17hin.no ry of my
state made the statement that this tiling is practically settled. I'don't know on
what basis he makes that statement. It isn't settled yet. It should have been
settled, as the gentleman from Arizona said, two years ago, to stabilize the in-
dustry. Then there is tho investment angle, people today are going but, and
have cone out, in the last .two years. The sooner it is settled, the better.
Mr. V5'hinnory also speaks of the matter not being retroactive, I would, liko to
ask the Director of Grazing to express his views on that matter of it not being
retroactive.
MR. CARPENTER: I don't" know as I understand exactly what they mean by not
being retroactive. The grass ha3 been' used up, so we can't do anything about
that, T^at is over with. Rules that wo make now will go into the 1937 regal a- ^
tions, of course. ■ T7e"havo got to stay with what wo ha"o done up to this time, in
fairness to everybody, but of course at this time we are considering tho new re-
r gulatlons for 1937.
ITow, gentlemen, it is 11:45. T7e have heard expressions about the advisability of
making the priority rules universal. It would be interesting to listen to that
particular discussion, possibly the rest of the day, but, as we are going to take
up different topics when wo reassemble at two o'clock, I am going to suggest that
in the next 12 minutes of this morning session, if there is going to be a compro-
mise reached by this committee that will report this out, that some kind of time
or period of . use will have to be suggested here, and we will have to seo how we
can got the states together on this matter. I realise this: Some say, "Lot's
take this day," or "that day" or "the other day".
Gentlemen, if you take .tho date of the enactment of the law, or take a day in
December, in July, or August, when the districts wero established, and you say
on that date they will got rights. If you do that, there was nobody on tho win-
ter range at that time. There is nobody has a right. You can't take a particu-.
lar day and pick it out and trick everybody "by" saying they have got their rights
as of that day. You and I have worked too long on that proposition. It is
period of use that gives a man a range privilege. It isn't happening to be there
on that particular day, and you know it. So this matter has to bo considered and
justified, What is a rango privilege? If you make it a day when there wasn't
anybody on the range, then nobody got a privilege. T^nt is nonsensical. We are
going to* have to set a date that can bo used in fairness. There may bo dif-
ferences between tho states and districts, but certainly there must be one rule
for every United States citizen, or it would seem to me 'it would almost violate
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the Constitution, which says ono state can not bar a nan from another state from
coniry: in. It nay "be that you will want to keep some local rules for thoso who
do not cross out of the district or state, "but, just for the purpose of this
last ten minutes of discussion, I an r.oinc to propose this, uniform rale: that
ono full soa3on!s use "before tho enactment of the law "bo considered the acquire-
ment of enough of a range privilege to entitle a man to priority, and thick, then
his caso will bo judged on his proporty qualifications.
I would like to hear on that topic in our few remaining minutes. Do you think
that ono full season of uso prior to onactment of tho Act will cauno lens! grief
than tho present method we are under. I would like to hoar from you now.
MB. HALTER GRAHAM, WYOMING; When a nan in Deconbor 1933 purchanod corv.onsu-
rato proport3' ■ and livostockr and entered into the livestock business, ho was cn-
: gaging in a legitimate business, without any shadow across his right to continue
in that business. Now, if those district boards, in the natter of priority,
antedate January 1, 1934, you are inviting dissont from tho -razing depart: lent
and legal action from thoso whom it affects.. The matter of legitimate priority
is a difforent subject altogether and can bo dealt with by local advisory
boards, but tho right of anyono who had his ticket and was on tho boat in Decem-
ber 1933, can not bo abrogated. The Act itself says that nothing acquired after
January 1, 1934, could be 'Granted as crodit, either in tho mattor of comnonsura-
tion or priority.
*
MR. CARPENTER: What Mr, Graham has said is truoT with this qualification,
that the failuro to rocognizo proporty rights acquired in the year 1934 would
hold good until July of 1935, and, after that timo, it was to be disroGardod.
MR. .WHITE, COLORADO: The matter of priorities has been bost fixed up by
districts. I think every district board has tried to make the bost rules for
their district. Consequently tho rules woro made to keep as many of tho people
in their own district taken care of as possible. In order to make this equal, I
don't think there is any quostion but what uniform priority, if it could bo ar-
ranged, would bo a cood thing-, but I think it should be with a five-year minimum
basis, ,
MR. KJLX. COHEN, IDAHO: When this Taylor Act was first created, wo all looked
forward to the priority in tho uso of the ranGe. Stoclmon were all behind it,
because they thought there would bo priority, wo would Got tho uso of tho ran::;o
that was adjacent to us, that wo had been usin^. Tvit is why we' workod for it
and that is why it was passed. Now, to make a uniform rule, as has boon proposod,
a uniform rule of 10 or 15 years, that night apply and wo would bo for it. In
tho event it would bo a few years, there aro a few man that are GoinG to be hurt.
There will bo somo people hurt no matter what years or what length of timo is bo-
inG usod, but, if wo are GoinG ^° servo tho ::iansos, it must bo done by local
boards. We know tho conditions of the local usors. Tsoy aro the ones that
• should bo considered and takon care of. QSon, if there is any range after that,
thoso man have the riGht to use this land, but tho first consideration aro those
who havo boon usiri£ it for years and years and have their set-up, and I for one
am very much opposed to the uniform rulo, unless it be for along period of
years. I know I could not sit on the board, and go' homo with a uniform rule,
say for two years. It would moan that I would have to havo a bodyGuard. I
couldnH face my noiGhbors and my associates. It would mean that wo would have
to cut them out and let some man come in on a two-year' sot-up. It wouldn't be
fair. I for one an vory much opposed to a uniform rule for all of the states.
MR. CARFSNTER; It go 03- without S&yingi of course, that if Mr. Cohen is
against a two-yoar rule, he is against a one-year rule,
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S««*. or M! ». to M 1.W M f'Sfj »S^ SlS: M S £
r o\SF3"^. I «aafc---thiti is a very/ good suggestion. Wo have *Mr toft a
«, £ad1£er^scussion on this aa«|7r. W^ffiSZ.TS&Sr
vour state coa-Attoo roons, and you ^W**^*?}1 £&£&# will have
put mi good fightinG** on W national ««£«*«•. ** ^Xo^ovrf state f.avors
this question up, and you had tetter instruct then as to «£T«i?*i2 romliro_
or opposes the unifom rule, olid, if thoy fwwi^ *f**^ ™ot give 'then
rents should he. Instruct your delegates witn -ef "i?*/1 "^' DLf :
"so Utile Xotatf that there is nothing they can do hut vote one way.
We are going to have to reach a conproniso. Wo <« W* jjj £ Slf they
Brief, ^t .stochnen have scored enough , ri «* ^^he various cbEf,.iMees to
?ArtLrov£ranf^^
SifKJWS SS3 Bffi8 ^ssaa^JffJR- -ii
2'. 00 PU'f arid hetfin promptly .
•/
:
I Li!
(Hoooss 12 Foon until .2:00 R.t) A
nSO.9,1936 - AreSHHOOH S3SSI0H: f
(Mooting called to order hy Chairman T. B, Carpenter, at 2r00.FK)
• UE. QUranm Oontlenon, uiilo we are waiting for the loud gg^&J^
turned on, I will sake a few announcements. T« ^Jf£°l£ *£B * lag h con-
lihe all regular gfe^S, "^^o^Uached to the.
!S?S ho'antef i-i'toSS aUttle'hlt of poetry he ceased. He .as pre-
ventod by illness fron attending this neetinc.
"Ho^e, hone rule' on the ran^o, '•
Where the sheep and the herefords now stay, ^
flhere seldom is heard a discburacine word,
And the 'stockmen have fe&thing to say.
(Applause and laMQiter.)
How, I want to go over a few little natters of procedure that *££££»&,,.
tioned about during the noon hour, on wnicn t^r^BO^B to do
i„G. There has hocn a fee li j>G on ^ part of W™**£ ^ BJof tha De_
district advisors have stolon the show, t..at «WW t u
partnent, or have the Department's sole oar ^ichovcr t.oj ou wisn P
Fils neoting, and this day's sessxon, is distinctly ope. to jwy us
and I 4elf to he the wishes of the ^rte^^g"^ ^Lorst hut
deo^artaental nen, that they want to he.ar, not paly fron 01 ***"* f; *
fro* all users of the range who feel thenselvos aggrieved fron an: cause.
That is the reason we want it understood that no one will he jtatjjf^ * eiyone
1. 3oing to he hoard, within *^™^^£^1^lS£u. he-
sion. But, especially, this day is uoing *° °° *°* ;™L reEOiutions, and the
cause the hoards, after this day is over, will ^^""g^ !,oho^ tat
final day nohody hut hoard nenhors will sport? on t.ie resolution, ana -j
hoard. r.or.hers will vote on the resolutions. ^
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However, at this tine, we. want to hoar all parties. So I want to again extend an
Invitation to any one to ;voice anything they wish. , i
There seems to he a little misunderstanding as to the committee meetings , tomor-' '
row In the committee heetings tomorrow, you will meet by states. flhen the dis-
trict advisors of the state are assembled in the roon, they can decide whqtner
they wish to have others besides district advisors in the roon or not, and they ^
can have then in or not, just as they desire. T^ey will then diocuss those
Questions, and the last hour 6t their nomine meeting will he devoted to electing
no-tors of a national comittoe. ' On each of the six subjocts, they will elect
two members. Utah having so many licenses, and being in two regions, will elect
four nonbers. 'That is, Region 1, which is the west side of Utah, ana Region 2,
the east side of Utah, will each elect two members on each of tsho six national
committees. The other states will elect two men on their national committees.
Then, at two o'clock tomorrow afternoon, general committees, after listening to
general discussion and states' discussion, will settle down to one topic to con-
centrate on, and bring bade to the general meeting, which will open up Friday at
nino o'clock, their reports.
As to where these state meetings will he held: That information will be obtain-
able at the information doslc on the nezzanine floor. The neetmgs will all be
hold in this hotel building. Arizona will r.eet in Roon 202, California in Room
0-38, Colorado in Roon 0-41, Idah* in 0-43. Montana in 206 Nevada in Ch42, New
Mexico in 138, Oregon in 207, Utnh in the Jade Roon, which is Roon 100, -a largo
roon, on account of the size of the delegation, and Wyoming in Roon 0-37.: Thero
will bo signs posted over the rooms. Thoro will be an information de*e on the
mezzanine floor when you get here in the morning. Most of these rooms aro on
this floor or the floor above.
In the afternoon, the national committees: The committee on licenses will meet
in Room C-41, the committee on permits in 0-43,. foes and finances in 138,
range improvements 0-38, range surveys C-37, and legislation in 0-43. If you are
in doubt as to where your room is, if you will inqvd.ro at the information desk,
they can speedily sot you right. We are anxious to start these committees off
promptly on tine in the morning.
I have been informed of a number of misunderstandings since our morning meeting,
and I havo also boon asked to continue the discussion of the importance of prior-
ities in licenses. We have a number of other subjects just as important to go
over. I feel it would be unfair to the committees and the state delegations not
to have those subjects covered in the general assembly, and particularly to give
the chance to those who are not district advisors to cone hero and express tnon-
selvoB, whether for or against the syston we are using.
For that reason, I feel' we should cover the other topics. Then, if we have any
•time left over, we can go back to this intriguing subject of priorities again.
But I feel, after our two-hour discussion this morning, we have a fair cross-sec-
tion hero, and we have sone thing for your state committees to take up and later
your national committee.
3Ne next subject for discussion is the natter of permits; I feel that the most
valuable 'thing that can be done at this tine is to got a distinct concept in all
of our minds ,9 to what a pornit under the Taylor Grazing Act is, or is going to
be. Then, after you have reached there, you can look bade, and see better wheat the
licenses are, and you can see the rather insignificant position which priorities
will play, relatively, in pernits, to what they are now playing in licenses, arid
possibly it will give you a better perspective in any further 'discussion of prior-
ities here today.
Preferences in the issuance of grazing licenses shall bo given for the proper use
of the land that they own, use or occupy. Any other consideration besides the
proper uso of the lands in or near the district will havo to bo, consistent with
what lias been done, to hook up the proper relationship botwoon tho public and
private lands. In other words,, under the pemits, wo are obliged to bo consist-
ent with the other purposos and provisions of the Act. That does not noan, neces-
sarily, however, that priorities sink into such alow state that they have nothing
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to do until everything is practically fixed by the property set-up. because you
all know that Section 3 does not say that ranee privileges recognized and acknow-
ledged nust "bo consistent with the property set-up, or nust bo consistont with =.
the proper use of land. It says it must ho consistent with the 'ether purposes
and provisions of this Act, and ono of tho other purposes of this Act is ,the
stabilization of tho livestock industry so that it does not go clear out of Digit
and tho stabilization of tho livestock industry is one of tho purposes that nust
ho adhered to and that all rules nust ho obliged to ho consistont with, j
Now, you have copies of tho Act. Many of us havo studied it for years, and will
probably he studying it for nany noro years. Ultinately, of course, courts will
pick it up and study it, arid finally, the United States Supreme Court will un-
doubtedly say what tho authors neant when they wrote "proper use of lands" and
"ranee privileges recognized and acknowledged." In the noantino, it is our do-,
sire to so interpret the proper use of those words, gentlemen, that ,we will have
no fear of any decision of any court, in order that wo nay have no undoing to do
in this adninistration and this adjudication of range privileges. That is tho
endeavor of the Department, and that is the (reason for the taking of this wido
counsel hero today, and for this debate. j
Now, a permit is passed prinarily to give privileges to honesteadors, sottlers or
land-ownors. Nearly all of the possible users cone within those throe classes,
• so they aro relatively uninportant. Everybody is oither a honosteader, a settler
or a land-owner, bocause, if ho lives there, he is naturally a landowner, hono-
steader or sottler, but he is given a pernit for tho proper use of tho lands and
water he owns and occupios, if within or noar tho district. First, wo havo the
groat stumbling block; how near is noar? And second, what is the proper use?
Is the proper use the denonstratod uso nade heretofore, or is tho proper use tho
use for that particular type of land, by reason of its vegetation, clinato, rain-
fall, and so on, which it is host adapted to, whothor that is what it is now used
for, or whothor it is now being used for sone thing different.
M ■«•••• i «
You realize that we now havo two districts which have the carrying capacities
completed by careful range, survey, and agreed upon by tho stock non. That is, in
New Mexico. Wo have one pieco of range in Colorado District 2 whero allocations
havo beon nade and allotments agreed upon, and there is a possibility of only one
appeal out of tho entire district, which doubtless can bo fixod up. So we are
.going to havo, before we go thru this year 1937, sono kind of regulations for
permits. When a permit is issued, it is obligatory, under tho torns of the Act,
that it be renewed, provided the permittee has complied with the rules and rogu-
lations of the .Secretary, and provided its failure to bo renewed would impair
the security of. his sot-up, if it bo pledged for a bond fide loan. So that is a
permit and it is a very serious natter to go into.
So wo want to see what your ideas and recommendations would bo for those ruloo
for term permits. In other words, while we have been seeking the proper relation-
ship of land, we practically perform a narriago ceremony when- we give tho terra
pornit, because we hook up, private lands and wator with sone range, and, while
there nay be changes for conservation and othor uses, at the sane tine it was^
Oongross* desire that public range be used properly and be usod so as to give the
proper use to that which tho settlors and people of the west have found that ,*they
; could patent and uso with their set-ups.
I believe that, before going further, it might possibly bo bost illustratod if we
got some questions from the floor, as to this distinction between a license sot-
up and a permit set-up. I an going to ask , if there aro any questions, that you
ask them at this tine*
MB, J. E. CONDIT, BAGSHMAN, IDASO (Idaho District No.l)i I would like to
know tho difforonco botwoon a license and a permit.
MR. CARPENTER: You will find on — I think it is — the last page of your
program, ther e are set out the distinctive differences betwoon licenses and per-
mits. Licenses are purely an administrative sot-up, under tho broad powers
given tho Secretary, to do all things necessary to carry out tho purposos and
provisions of this Act, whereas permits aro governed by a spocific statutory
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guard. Liconsos, as you know, are temporary, and for a year only. Permits will
"be anything up to ton yoars .and is a guard against a failuro to renew a permit,
for those in do bt , and there aro t?ireo or four other distinctions botuoon liconses
and permits that aro sot out. You will find then in the progran. It is Exhibit
4 in your progrnn,
MR. McARTHUR, CALIFORNIA: Eow can they Intelligently issue a permit 'until
you know the value of the whole property as compared with the -value of the range
land in which the licenses are issued.
MR. CARP2NTER; Mr. McArthur has asked this questioni He says, "How can you
intelligently issue a pernit until you know hot only tho carrying capacity of
tho range land, "but the value and use of the private lands and water, and' tho
proper relationship between tho two kinds of lands." Now, gontlonon, ho has hit
the nail right on tho head, H7e can not do that, and that i3 tho roason we have
not tried to do it. Failing this accurate date as to the carrying capacity of
the range, as to the commensurate value and tho dependent value of tho private
lands and wator, and foiling a r.ioro propor relationship that can only cone to us
after we got that data, wo have had 'to wait until after we got it.
This past year, we have been working on a range survey, which has been completed
in one district. In some statos, it will bo complotod this year, and so on, in.
order to take care of it as it cones along* I an glad, it is coming piecenoal.
I an glad. we will have a chance to cone into one district and work it out thero.
My feeling has always been that all those with licenses should bo given a few
years of a licensee, and a full year or two of tino in which to porfoct an ap-
peal, in order that, before they aro deprived of any property right, they nay
have a full year. You realizo that, in the appeals on these' licenses, tho rogu^-
lations have gotten out so late in tho spring that, by the , tine tho appeal is
thru or perfected, the uso of the range is practically over with.
That is duo to the fact that this is a now Act, that wo are setting up .machinery
and operating it at tho sane tine. But, on tho permits, it is a serious-enough
natter, I take it, that, after tho debate today, they r.ay recommend that thoro be
a continuance of liceneos for a period of years, as an adjustment period, 'and
ample time given to perfect all appeals. Now, I won't scare you to death. It
is not so bad. , \7o aro not acquainted' with it, \7e have a first-hand acquaintance
with liconsos. ffe feel pretty safe as long as they have tho sane ratings on it
as they used to. t,
Now, as I soo it, wo have worked close enough to what a permit is going to be«, *
that the transition can be made without badly discommoding the industry.- The
depondoncy of the property is going to bo of prime importance, and dependency, of
courso, is a flexible word. As to how much importance a pioco of property v/ill
bo given will depend on its conmonsurato value and how nnny it will support for
the period it is necessary to support. Its dependency is not how dependent tho
operator is on the public domain, but how dependent that particular land is en
the public domain.
Then wo have the word "near11. Then wo have a largo number of commensurate prop-
erties, sufficient to exhaust tho carrying capacity of the range, under the con-
struction that has been put on "noar" heretofore, those who aro nearest in the
point of miles and accessibility will take it, up to tho full carrying capacity
of the range, and those not so near will bo loft out. One district in Utah has
made an attempt to put in practice tho "near" rule. They first made the rule 35
mil os from tho district. A nan cane to soo mo who lives 36JV miles from tho die-'
trict. I said, "The Board could change their. rule to 36j nilos. Then there would
immediately bo a nan living 37 nilos away who would protest." Soonor or later,
to protoct.your ranges, you aro going to have to draw cone lino.
.
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Wkoro you are going to put "near", vriiat kind of construction you will put on it,
is a natter you yourself will have to determine, and -you will not" "bo a"blo tOid<#-
tormino it until you have the complete picture I have "boon with* this, -in the
\ /adjudication of ranges:. Wo run in a rather snail arc, particularly the cow nan.
'Thoy don1 t. have the whole picture of a district, and none of us have the whole
picture, of course, of the ten states. To make the richt uso of these public
lan&Sf. and to sot up the right relationship "between the public and the private
lands, it is going to ho necessary that you have a picture. That could ho gotten
in two ways, as I see it. If wo had money enough, or ability enough* wo could
toko you 'up in airplainoa and take you. out until you &-;t a look at all tho diffe-
" rent properties, and all the different r.ovom.onts of livestock, and it would ho a
narvolou3 chance to see the entire picture -That is not practical.
Tho next "best is to reduce it to paper and get it on a nap, and wo are jotting
naps. The comm.ittoo on rango inprovononts and the committee on range surveys
will go" over to the place here where the drafting department is in operation.
Tho so of you in Colorado havo prohaoly seen tho marvelous status nap gotten up
"by tho forest service, which shows tho ownership of tho entiro state of Colorado,
whether they arc owned "by tho county, tho stato or tho nation. If you can ipic-
turo y'our own stato in that kind of nap, or your own district, and then super-
impose on that picture tho carrying capacity of the puVlic lands* and the1 commen-
surato value of the private lands, you would thon ami-each the question of saying
what is the dependency rating of each pioco of private land, hocauso you would
.:', pick out its relation to the range, and you would know what it had raised, and
[i what its depondoncy was, and the determination of that dependency would he tho
determination of tho permit. # : >
I feel that we need havo no foar of stopping into, a dependency x>roposition. I
cortainly would not liko to ho a participant in any land plan in which tho
users did not havo a very loud voice in what went on, hocauso wisdom was not given
to a few people. We have got to got it collectively, this way, and tho main
trouble wo have is knowing exactly what wo are doing.
Wo are jgoin&j now, to try and discuss a permit, as to what wo feel should ho
Given the main emphasis, in those rules for permits, "because there is going to ho
a set of rules worked out, and, if it is your wish, we can pursue the method we
used on liconses. You will romomhor, whon we first approached the matter of li-
censes, the trepidation with which the industry approached it was so great that,
even when wo hold meetings in evory stato, and I went hack to Washington, and it ^
was all worked out and approVod "by tho Socrotary of the Interior, .still, .wo wore
unwilling to have those license rulo3 until we camo hack and held four meetings
in tho wost to 300 whether those rules would do for a preliminary sot-up, i
Possibly tho rules for permits, onco drawn up, should ho circulated ,omo"ng tho
hoards, should he discussed in some meetings, and possibly another national meet-
ing. They are much more important than tho liconso rales. TTo want to know what •
you think ahout permits, whether you are in a hurry to got there,' how you want to
got there and what you think they, should ho when you arrive. You know' as much
ahout this law as wo do. There is comparatively so little public range in regard
to the private lands and water, that tho privileges practically tako tho range.
I would he glad to get questions end suggestions from you men as to how you view
this matter of drawing up either tho procoduro side of how wo should do it, or
the side of what that should ho.
MR, HcAJlTHURj • How much of this CCC work will tho rango users ho required to
pay in the swoet hy^and-hy, I think, myself, the cattle men should pay for their
own range improvements, hut wo certainly can* t afford to pay tho amount it is
costing to build scenic roads and trails and get "by with tho cattle "business. We
can!t do it. Do wo have to pay that hill?
MR* CARPENTER; Mr. McArthur* a question is as to whether the cost of tho CCC
camp will ho loviod against the stock men using tho ranges. My understanding is -
that the CCC camps aro part of the omorgoncy sot-up that tho administration has
put into off oct to help ond the depression and give employment and training to •
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young non, and no part of that will "be recovered in a special assessment against
any industry, that it will fall into the national debt and will "be paid out of .
general taxes. So the stock non will pay no nore for the. work on the^.r :rangos
than will the average person in general,, the average tax-payer in the United
States. Does that answer your question?
i
MIU McARTHUR: Yes. I hope it will work out that way.
MR. CARPENTER: I don't see any other way that it can work out.
MR. A- R. TEWR , POST, ORE. (Oregon District No. 5): Do I understand that
there will he no pernits issued, either temporary or otherwise, in any district,
until there has he en a range survey made?
MR. ' CARPENTER: Mr. Teater wishes to have it rcvctatttd as to whether there
will he permits issued "before there is a complete range survey. Now, gentleman,
there will not ho. If you will turn to your circular o£ May 1935, and your cir-
cular of March 2, 1936, you will find stated in the preamble that these; licenses
are issued to give us tine to make those surveys, and, until they aro complete,
we can not go under pernits. You will find that these licenses aro not, issued
under Section 3 of the Act, hut only under Section 2 of the Act, It would he un-
fair to you, unfair to the Department, and to the industry, to try and go at this
in a half-baked tray, and, withal, it may take several years. Y0u will find on
your program the number of years estimated for your particular district, with
our present facilities. The Department feels that they would rather not do
anything until they can do it right. Does that answer your quostion.Mr.Teater?
MR. TEATER: I think so. ■ ?r - • '
MR. MAX COHEN, IDAHO: I want to ask the question as to whether these per-
mits will be inter changeable for sheep and cattle.
. MR. CARPENTER*.' Pernits will; be interchangeable at the option of the owner
of the permit, provided the change does not interfere with the other users of
the range.
MR. COHEN; Will that be governed by the local boards?
MR. CARPENTER: Yes. ' In that case, the other users of the range will, of
course, have a voice. •
MR. STYLIAN STA.ES, UTAH: Since pernits are going to be for allotments,
I wonder if we couldn't give every licensee a separate area undor a license and
see how it would work.
MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Staes makes this very practical suggestion: that,
whereas most permits are -based on an allotment, either individual er community,
that, before pernits are issued , a trial and temporary license allotment be given
in order that they can have a kind' of trial harness put on them, in the allotment
business, to work under /for a year, before it becomes hardened into a permit.
I would like to hear a discussion on that matter, if you have views on it.
MR. D. H. ADAMS, LAYTON, UTAH (Utah District No. l) : I don't believe it is
the proper thing to do, to put that trial harness on until the survey has actually
boen made. If you put the trial harness on,' and someone tries it out for a year
or two, and then you come back and take one of the tugs awry from them, you might
have some trouble." So, keep the harness off until you get the survoy completed,
would bo my advice.
MR. CARPENTER: The way I understood Mr, Staes suggestion, that, oven after
we have all the data ready for permits, and the range survey' complete, then we
should give just a trial allotment for one year. Would that meet with your ideas?
MR. ADAMS: That answers it. If the Burvoy has boon completed, then it is
all right. ■
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^ JIR. CARPENTER: In other words, if I properly understood Mr. Staos11 suggos-
tion, it was that, even v/hen everything is collected, when we can assemble these
boards and lay befdre then complete -naps, when we can agree with then on carrying
capacities on every piece of land, when all that is done* still, "before the tern
permits themselves issue, that a trial allotment "be nade, at least for a period
of years, boforo the permit is gone into. I would like to know whether or notf-
that meets with your favor, "because those suggestions, gentlemen, will probably
"bo carried out, t I i
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MR. HAL HAMMILL, HOPE, N.M. (N.M. District No. 6): We feel that we have "been
thru a trial period in the last two years, and that wo are -ready for term permits,
and if wo could have something in the form of, say, 75 percent, for a ton-year
"basis, loaving 25 per cent to take up the slack, it would give us something con-
crete to go on.
MR, CARPENTER: Mr. Hammill is from Nov/ Mexico, whore the range surveys
are the most nearly completed, and whoro the question of "near" does not ontcr
into the discussion. He says that he would like to have the permits issue up to
a certain percent, and he suggests 75 per cent, that the Department hold 25 per
cent slack in the temporary license method, for future adjudication, "because he
says, for two years, they have "been temporizing along and they would liko to have
it settled.
MR. J. D. NOBLITT, COKEVILLE, WTO, (Wyo. District No- 4); For what reason?
MR. HAMMILL: In our state, wo haven't had a great deal of troublo. Wo have
90 per cent satisfaction in our district, and the banks, and othor money loaning
concerns, are talcing a "big intore3t in it, and that would "be the reason, for the
"benefit of the stock men on that range,
MR. CARPENTER: He has a vory different condition from what you have in
Wyoming and Utah. They have had what 'amounted to .allotments in that state for
many, years. As Mr, Hamnill says, 90 per cent of them are satisfied with this
temporary set-up, and have "been for a period of yoars. So ho feels that, in his
region, at least up to a certain percentage, as soon as naps are completo and ac-
cepted, they are ready to go,
MR. NOBLITTj Then it would seem to me we would have to approach this propo-
sition from an angle that would take care of New Mexico on a different "basis than
other states. Can we do that?
MR. CARPENTER: Precisely so. That is the "beauty of a meeting liko this,
that we can get group to ask for what it wants. That is the reason why wo have
these meetings. If wo got shut up in Washington, we would only' see our "back yard.
We have, represented in this room, every condition in the range states in the
United Spates, and if they are all put into the record, they will all "bo consicU
ered.
MR. J. M. WILSON, SAFEORD, ARIZ. (Arizona District 4): We in Arizona have
something of the same situation. District 4, as you will notice on the program,
lias the field work completed. In our district, wo have some appeals pending. In,
the majority of cases, however, we figure the thing is settled'. We have some
appeal cases that are very light. Some have an allotmenb or community allotment.
We feel it is more or loss settled. They have gone, so far as it has been autho-
rized, to build fences. If wo go back and say we have got to issue temporary
licenses for another year, they will say "Why?u Our ranges are divided on the
nearness of water, as a rule. ' I would say 75 per cent is settled,, There is
hardly any question of their boing re-opened.
MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Wilson lives at Safford, Arizona, and, down there, with
tho cooperation of tho Soil Conservation people, we have mado a very completo
rango survey, the most completo range survey in the United States. Tho condition
down thoro is that tho wash and tho run-off from that soil has boon so groat that
the Reclamation Service are in danger of losing some of their greatest roservoirs
and so great sums of monoy have boon pourod into that region to make a completo
survey of that range, to protect all of tho agriculture in that valley, that de-
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ponds on the ranees. . As a result, Mr. flilson is taLkins ahout rtiero « ey have a
co-TPloto nrf. That is dqr h» feels as he. docs.. tfo can not take one rule and fit
it ai over the United States. He has a different condition fron *at most of
the dologate3 in the northern states have.
HR.. O'KSILL, OTOMIHG: In case of sale of the stock and the land, are those
permits transferrahle, and to what oxtent?
ME. CARPE1W3R: The pomit will not transfer with the livestock at' all. The
pornut or license will transfer only with tho-pernit, and there will he no cut
on transfer. , U*>*~ .
ME W. C. JOHES, WISE RIVEE, M0MT.ua (Montana District H0.5)s Supposing a
case where a party is activo during the period of the co-ensurability, he has
censurable* property and, at the tin. he qualifies under ^period of Priority
rights, then ho hocor.es inactive during the licenso period. At the Mm the per-
manent pernits are issued, if he doesn't set in, then is he required to hold his
peace forever after,
MR. CARPENTER: The question is, if a con is not stockod at the tine pernits
are issued, whether he is out — is that it? *;
MR* JONES J Yes.
i ,
MR. CARPENTER* No. He can cot a non-use pcrnit and hold his rights. He
need not "bo stocked-up at that tine.
MR. JONES: How is that going to stabilize, the industry when these men
have been licensed, to use this privilege, and he is cut off and this other nan
cones in..
MR. CARPENTER: If it is necessary, in order to utilize the ranee* to issue
sone temporary licenses, .to take up that slack for the period that na*,ijs oat,
they will he issued, and also a reasonable restriction will he placed :on his
cone-hack, so that he can't cone in in one jump. He nay have to cone m in two
or three years.
MR E. D. WILLIAMS, MINERSVILLE, ITCAH (Utah District Ho. 3): I v/ould just
like to ask a question, inasnuch as you are on the subject of non-use, how long
this non-use privilege will T» Granted. How long will they hold good for?
MR. CARPENTER: I can't tell you that. That is sonething that you non
will have to act on and reconnond. That night he different in different dis-
tricts. But it will he reasonable. It will be for a reasonable period and under
reasonable restrictions.
MR. J. M. CONOVER, HEBRON, UTAH (Utah District Ho. 7): I think that these^
licenses and pernits are a very serious question. I don't think that one district
should be held back on its pernits bocaus'e sonobody else is not up on their work.
I think, as fast as any district is qualified and is ready for^a permit, that we
ought to immediately give then these pernits, because it is going to establish
the stock industry. They can get noney and go ahead and do something as soon as
they get their pernits. I don't see why, if sone districts should be slow in
getting their priorities and connensurato ratings worked out, sone other districts
should bo hold back,
MR- CARPENTER: It has always been the intention of the Department, as fast
as we had a set of data, to go into that district with a pemit syston, even
though districts around it night be on the license syston. Thoro is no intention
to hold back any district when this data is ready, ffo have thought of setting up
a trial district in sone state this coning year, and profiting by any nist alee s
that we shall undoubtedly make, in order that ^7e can use it in other districts.
That is an inducement to you to got in on the first district!
MR. MARION LEE , THATCHER, ARIZ. (ARIZ. District. No. 4) : I rculd like to know,
in Arizona District 4, if we are going to bo compelled to take the S. C. S. figures
on the carrying capacity.
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I
MR. CARPENTER:. Mr. Leo raises a good, hot point. The Soil Conservation
people have been in that district in Arizona and set the carrying capacity. Tne ...
carrying capacity on the so-called crass, raises in Arizona, ^e have two types of
ranges down there: arass range, and a ranp where they don't have grass, tat
they just have an annual growth of weeds and cactus, and the large part of it is
scenery. On that second part of the range, we have had a violent disagreement
between the stock nen and those government me* who have estimated the carrying
capacity of the range. How, Mr- Leo wants to know whether the stock nen are
goirg to have to observe the carrying capacity of iron Zero to 2, tnax was placed
on that range. This is the method of approach that has been worked out:. 'At the
meeting of the chairmen in Washington, your chairman, Mr. Wilson, was there, and
he Drought up the sane question you "brought up, and wo sent for Dr. Lowdomilk
of the Soil Conservation Service.
Mr. Wilson said there wero ten sections that ho know cows could get fat on, if
thev would fence it off. I asked those fellows if they were willing to fence it
off" and make an experiment, and, if the stock nen could prove by practical aencn-
stration that, instead of carrying zero, or one, or two head to the section, it
would keep several nore head, and still not deteriorate the land, that [that could
he the final answer that the Government would have to accept, as well as tne
stock nen. H0w, ny understanding is that they are fencing off ranges, on wnicn
one area on this scenic range will hold no stock, one range will hold tne estimate
of the stock nen, and one range will hold the estinato of the Government,! and
that, after a few years, the stock nen themselves will ho invited to go out and
look at those ranges and see which is proper. I know of no "better way to solve
those difficulties.
MR. LEE: I would like to know what we are .going to do in the meantime.
MR. CARPENTER: That nan has a very practical and persistent hahit.
(Laughter). We are going to do what -we have had to do in the past We are going
to got along the hest we can by a compromise, and just wag along with this until
we know surely what your carrying capacity is. Y0u probably won't get all the .
stuff you want out there, and wo probably won't get all the cuts we feel aro
proper, hut, in the nethod whereby the stock nen make recommendations and tne
Department act on the recommendations, you probably won't ho hurt badly, and ye
mil find a method of getting together until we get those facts definitely deter-
nined "by actual experiment.
I want to say this: We have not found any great difference in carrying capacity
of the ranges, where we have a grass range., I an going to call on some New Mexico
people that have had sone experience, going over these government estimates c-i
carrying capacity. I wonder, Mr. Oliver Lee, if you could say sone thing to tne
Steele nen on the capacities as found hy the range surveys, as 'to how they agreed
with the stock nen's estimate of the range. Mr- ^eG c0-ies fron a district and a
state where we have "been thru what you gentlemen will have to go thru m adjust-
ing your practical experience with government surveys and data.
MR. OLIVER M. LEE, ALAMO GORDO , HEW MEXICO. (Hew Mexico Grazing District
No- 5): Ladies and Gentlemen, I have "been asked to answer a question that is
just a little hard for me to answer, at this time. I rant to say this , that in
general discussion with the men making the range surveys for the Department, I
have found very little different in the estimate that they put on as to the
carrying capacity and the estimates that the boards generally have found -~ so
slight a difference that it is not material -- and in just a very few cases.
I think that we are coming close to an agreement in nearly every ^9tri^ that
has been classified up to the present time. That is my understanding. Now, I
wart to say to you that that statement is made from general conversation with
men doing the work and not from studyingthe actual data that they have gotten
up. But that is my general impression and while on that question, we haye gone
so far in some of those districts that we are now ready, I Relieve for the
term permits. And in my opinion, it is very desirable that they oe issued at
the present time.
MR. CARPENTER: Thank you, Mr. Lee..
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MR. J. J. BALLARD, MC DERMITT , NEVADA, (Oregon Grazing District No. 4):
Ladies and gentlemen —
MR. CARPENTER: Is this a question, Mr. Ballard?
MR. BALLARD: Well, will be a little more than a question.
MR. CARPENTER: Everybody wants to get a try at this mike., You cojne; on up.
• ' MR. BALLARD: The only mike I ever stood before^before wasla *»-«•**
Mike, and I came out second best It looks to me like we - ^£^°e
^^grant^er^ ^^ *££» I «« >~ ££* have to
wait another three lonS years. Ever heard that before? (Laughter)
And further than this, a suggestion has just been made fSf™ ££?£*'
with the approval of Mr. Carpenter ^f^^^f^y^'J^ period
giving us the permit which, we had hoped for *f ^^ that way it is Going
of probation of several years. Now, it this tiunj, ", •,
to be too late to do the present speaker any good. (Applause)
you can't even get close to a banker without him asking you ^J"**^ l(
stands, if you have one* No, I haven- 1 one -I ^^^nce that that
thfit? Class 1 or 2 — whatever it may oe. nave yju ^y ao0 ^^•u. wan
will he Sr^etuated? I can only say what 1, ndon said in hi. last speech. 'No
man knows". (Laughter and applause)
How, there are some things that ™^*™*J?£\g]£^£?$L
. that the Judgment Day is going to be quite a busy «■* «* * *« £* t
the rest of the delegation from Oregon. I thank you.
ur MP ARTHUR* I have spent the last two years giving Mr. Carpenter hell ,
them.
MR. BALLABD: I want to go this far ~ I ^^jT^V^ facts,
extra period of probation on at a later date. As soon as we 6
let' s go ahead. j ■
MR. MC ARTHUR: That is all right with me.
MR W. S. GINNERY, GUNNISON, COLORADO. (Colorado (Grazing District Ho. 3):
that he is in a good deal better financial condition toto to maK
with a greater security on these licenses, than he was beiore unae
I believe another thing, that perhaps ^. ^^J^Z^l^Tts
today when we are discussing this proposition of "°^e* «* ^ all
just barely possible that Congress may decide, within ts wxsd ^
this grazing under one department, and Mr. Oarpenier, m=tter — I have
be out of order for me to say that ^-onal -f^Xarlment , ** I
Se^r:na7Sif sh^ldt unLftrSepartment of the Secretary of the
Interior. (Hearty applause)
home control, if you please, and I heliove it should extend
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A year ago I urged upon this meeting that we get down to issuing permits as soon
as possible. Even though last' year I asked for it , I am not worried so greatly
about it at the present time. I feel that our people are becoming more and nore
satisfied with the license period until all this investigation is made , because
the boards are going to give this man the same that he had the year before when
he falls in the right class today.
The banker need have no uneasiness about making him the loan. In reference to
priority, I think that is a big question and I want to say at this time we should
be in one department,
•• MR. CARPENTER: I might say you wouldn't find any difference in putting this
in one department, either hero or Washington".
MR. WHINKEHJT: A great many of us have made up our minds about that depart-
ment, . ~~~^-
MR. CARPENTER: I don't want to raise that question at "the present time.
MR. E. S. GATMY, MOUNTAIN HOME, IDAHO. (Idaho Grazing District No. 1): r'e
are at the time when we ought to have more stability in the livestock business.
I was very gratified to hear you say that the Bill — the Taylor Bill — pro-
vided for the stabilization of the livestock business. I was afraid you had
overlooked that point in the law, in your seeming desire to stabilize the land
values. '•
Now, I feel that mistakes have been made in putting too much importance on rafifce
rirhts and preferences in the lands, especially lands with no connection with the
livestock business, and I rofer particularly to a lot of homesteads that the
livestock men have been paying a nuisance fee to the homesteader on, to keep him
still. Now, your Department is putting a prior right in those homesteads, which,
I believe, is wrong, because the homestead value will be raised up until we can t
keep it up any more.
The stability should be put on now in the livestock business and, I believe, we
are ready for the term permit in most states, but still, I believe, we should go
slow enough so that we are certain we know what we are doing. In my four or five
years experience there never has been a time when the livestock business was so
unsettled as today. There. is no stability to it. The bankers are fearful. The
men here are also afraid of what is going to happen, There is a roof of lear on
the livestock business' today, and I think we can clear away this fear by issuing
term permits. V believe we are ready for them, in order that we will know wnere
we are going from here.
The banker doesn't know, we don't know. We can't sell or buy. "There is no trad-
ine in livestock or ' land because of this uncertainty, yet I say this, tnat wo
should be careful. We don't want a permit like the Forest issued here for ten
years, except that they reserved the right to reduce it for range control, they
reserved the right to reduce it for transfer purposes and they reserved the right
to cut the allotment. No man can run under those ten-year permits.
But, llr. Carpenter, we are ready right now in all these districts for these term
permits. What is there to be afraid of? Why are you fearful of this term permit?
We want this term .permit to stabilize this livestock business, as it provides in
this Taylor Bill.
A man, who is a Basquo, came to me a year ago, and he said, "What this fellow
Taylor going to do? I hear this Fellow Taylor going to take this range away, and
I hear we all have to go just one little place over out of region. What the hell
the matter with this fellow Bill Taylor?" Now, in my opinion, there isn't any-
thing the matter with the Taylor Bill. If .there is. anything wrong it is in us,
not knowing the facts, but I do believe that they know the facts well enough that
by the next spring they can issue a permit, not a license, next spring.
As to the question then of the length of time, I cannot say, oxcept as to the
facts, but I can say that what we want is a ten-year permit and if next year is
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the tine and we are ready, we want then because we want to know whore wg "are
and what we are doing and where we go from hero. I thank you.
JUDGE LERO'f H. COX, ST. GEORGfi , UTAH. (Arizonr Grazing District No. l):
I "believe we should five some consideration to what the gentleman just d-iid. I
"believe this, that we have the Department here with a handful of nu..n trying to
make a survey in order that we may have the ten-year permit , and the livestock
man has boon ignored. So far as tho cost and worry and anxity, that }ic tons had.
Because 'the Department said, we have a handful of men to work ten years' tine.
I believe the Department can do something b-' expediting these surveys and put-
tin:;; on enough men. It would not cost any more to do it in one year than in
three or ten years. /
. MR. CARPENTER: Judge Cox has raised a /point that the program at present is
not very fast with the existing personnel, and as long as these term "Permits are
dependent on the proper data, we should get/ a larger personnel. I want to make
,a statement on that matter. We have a few 'men qualified to make range surveys.
Everyone can't do it. It takes specific training and experience. There is,
however, quite a little foot work and drafting work. We have asked that we use
the emergency setup i — the C. C. C. camps — for what help they can give us.
We have taken selected young men from the camps ■ — some of them highschtfol boys,
some of them college* boys — we have riven them intensive courses in drafting and
in working section lines for range/ surveys. We have three schools — one in
Salt Lake — and the committee on Range Surveys, and the committee on Improve-
ments will visit the drafting room tomorrow* We have another in Albuquerque and
another in Reno. Likewise, we have in tho field a number of boys who a.ru learn-
ing how to walk the section lines and make a careful estimate of the vegetation
and palat ability .
We are not waiting: and saying that we can't do our work because we need more
appropriations. That is a hard word in Washington, Out at the Zoo, near Con-
necticut Avenue, they have a bird there. Its tongue has been split so/it can
say a few words. And whenever a visitor . comes to town, they take him out to
Connecticut Avenue to hear this bird, and these are the four words he sayst
"What about the appropriation, what about the appropriation, what about the
appropriation?" It is customary for all Government people to holler about the
appropriation. We have tried not to do it. It is true, as Judge Cox says ,
and- wc have made a frank estimate to you on the sheet in your program, on when
we figured the work will be completed with the trained men and men we are train-
ing, but it will take some time. Any questions?
MR. W. C. JONES, WISE RIVER, MOTITAHA. (Montana Grazing District No. 5.):
We have had no range survey J but have had some experience with the range con-
servation men and from what I can learn — well, recently we have had somo ex-'1
perienco with these fellows in the range conservation program and from our ex-^i
perience with these fellows, we would be a lot better off if we had never had
any conservation survey. They run all the way from the absurd to the ridiculous.
MR. CARPE3TIER: They say frank expressions are good for tho soul,
is. true, this gentleman's soul is in pretty good shape.
If that
MR. JOIIES: Referring to Mr. Gatny's speech, in which he emphasized we are
read;/ for term permits. I gather we are ready to those we know are qualified.
What will we do with the other fellows?
MR. CAHPE1TTER: I want to say in defense of Mr. Gatny. He is a new man and
I find the older men are more cautious. I remember last year a great many of
you were not so cautious, but you have found that no matter which way you jump
you hurt somebody. The . longer you are on the boards, the more carefully you
will move. The Department is ready to go whenever you give the word.
MR. GATFf: CanH these boards grant one man r permit for one year, tho
same as they grant a license for one year, and then the other fellow who )ms
the dependent commensurate property — they can grant him a pormit for ten years?
It will al'.7cays be the same — there will be n few men in each district who can't
qualify, but give them a permit for one year. Then you can immediately go to a
bank and if you can talk about a Permit, that is a '.-hole lot greater thnn talk-
ing about a license — and it is greater in the trading and transfer of livestock.
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, -wm*m-*v . mwmm^
Now, in our district, there are a few men who are not qualified at this time to
qualify for a ten-year period. Give them a smaller permit. We can make mistakes
and we can correct them. What harm is there going to he if we do give somebody
a permit who does not deserve it. We can take it away from him later, but the
actual "bona fide livestock "businessman is entitled to this stability of this
permit.
MR. CARPETER: Mr, G-atny suggests that we go immediately into is suing.! term
permits to some and not to others.
MR. W. B. MATHIS, ST. GEORGE, UTAH, (Arizona Grazing District No, l) Si I
would like to speak as a "banker and a "board member. I think that the bankers
are not nearljr as badly worried over their loans now as they were before: any
permits were issued — - pardon me, I mean licenses. I think they are more con-
cerned that their patrons see they go into this carefully and get something they
can depend on, then to rush into it. For my part we are willing to move along
pretty well as the Department thinks best and if the date is here and the De-
partment is ready to issue permits to those who are ready and have the informa-
tion and data to guarantee these permits, then it is all right with me.
MR. R. J. CCFWAY, CRAIG, COLORADO. (Colorado Grazing District No. 6): I
have been listening to these boys talk about permits and I have been thinking
and I will say something if you will lot me. I don't believe you could issue a
permit until you have all the data 'to work out the carrying capacity. We' must
wait to get this data. We admit , the da,ta might not be correct. All right
then, do it this way. Issue permits — term permits -- when we get this data,
but confine it to three years and then we can perfect this data and then I say
probably we would be ready to issue ten-year or seven-year permits. Why can't
it be done along this line.
MR. CARPENTER? We now have three suggestions, one is the suggestion that
Mr. Conway just made that we issue term permits for three years until we get the
data perfected and then issue ten-year permits. Mr. Mathi's thinks we should go
carefully and not issue permits until we are ready to issue them on all the data
obtainable, Mr. Gatny thinks we should issue permits right away, and then gather
the data. Some say three years, some say one year, and someday issue permits
up to 75$.- Probably each one of them would fit some particular part of the
country and after this discussion is given hero today before the state meetings
it will be of value for that purpose,
MR. P. W. SPAULDING, WYOMING: Sitting in the back of the room and looking
at the number of men here, it seems to me that there is some knowledge among our
advisory board members of what the range really will carry. A knowledge, I be-
lieve, sufficient to issue the permits, if and when those who are '.being given in-
tensive training in the C. C. C. camps, turn in the data. Then we can make a
pro rata adjustment. But it seems to me there is some knowledge among the mem-
bers of the Advisory Boards at this time to issue permits.
MR. CARPBNTUR: Yes, I agree with Mr. Spaulding, and I wish to say that the
men from New Mexico will probably vouch for it. When those range surveys are
made they will be laid before the Board and they will be asked whether the Board
thinks they are correct. They will bring in all they found in the field and ask
the Boards, are those correct. In general, there has been no disagreement, as
Mr. Lee has said. I see Mb Brownfield —
MR. A. D, BROWNFIELD, FLORIDA, NEW MEXKfO. (^ew Mexico Grazing District No.
3): Mr. Carpenter, may I say — \
MR. CARPENTER; Mr. Brownfield. is chairman in his district, and this is a
man who has been through it all in this, if anybody has.
MR, BROWNFIELD: Under the licenses granted we have been concerned only with
the lands they have customarily used. Now, ccrung out of the license-period to
the permit period, or granting the allotment s , you are more concerned with es-
tablishing the linos — the dividing lines between the ranches. In our state we
-- 38 -
'
have teen told 'that some 90$ of the ranchers have agreed upon these lines and
for that reason wo say that we are read:/ for the permit. One year, three years,
or ten years, wo are 90$ ready for nermits. We, for the sake of aiding the
Division of Grazing and 'Mr.' Carpenter, .are asking for 75$ and holding in reserve
for their -benefit and future developments this 25$, and for that reason we -be-
lieve that each and every one on advisory "boards and our apportioned time for
making the allotments and recommendations — then ycu will find it very easy to
make your recommendations for the term permits.
MR. CARPENTER: As our time is rolling on, I. want to introduce a new topic,
because we wish to cover all of these topics so there' will "be some generaVback-
ground for each state committee to work on tomorrow morning and the national com-
mittees to work on tomorrow afternoon. We will take up railroad and wagon road
checkerboard lands.
This public domain wasn't made in blocks, but when the Government gave grants to
railroads, it was scattered out and a number of grants made. The railroads were
p-iven alternate sections bocause Oongraaa did not wish to create any great in-
terests. Thev gave every other section there because they were supposed tb sell
it and develop little homes. Practically all of that country that could be sold
or rented has been done so. Some has been used as public domain. It will be of
interest to know that in the state, of Nevada, where the largest amounts are
•there, with the railroad having the most public lands, the Southern Pacific Land
Company, I think has some four and one-half million acres of land, part in Idaho
and Ut'ah, although this same land takes in some land preference in New Mexico,
Arizona and Montana, and is a wagon grant in Oregon. The most, however, is in
Nevada. ' I
1
We met with the representatives of the Southern Pacific Land Company and we
agreed on a cooperative contract to use nine of the railroad company's owned
lands end the Government lards together, and the applicant for the lands will
meet and they would a£ree that if 'a man did not have a priority or dependent
commensurate property, he would not get on the Government lands in between.
Congress says that those who had the ri£ht to use the Government lands should be
able to use the railroad lands in part. Now, I don't know whether that contract
has been finally approved or not, but when it has been, it will be followed by
an .order for the Regional Grazier to work out the particular allotments, fhere
are, I believe, about 150 in Nevada to be worked out.
The method used in Idaho in working out isolated tracts is as follows: There
were some 125 isolated tracts that could not be handled on a regular range opera-
tion. Our representative in Idaho went to the town near the tract and as-ed all
the inhabitants to adjust their difficulties and they wore told if they didn t,
it would be done for them. When you get right out on the land you have less
difficulty in settling matters. The result' in that it was worked out in Idaho.
There were over a hundred, practically all 'were fixed up with allotments and no
•appeals. This is a matter for this meetings and other meetings to consider.
If there was nobody in Nevada, we could easily say, well you take the south and
we will take the north, or you take the land north of the railroad and we will
take the south. That would be just as fair for the railroad as for the Govern-
ment , but with all those ranches out there, we can't do that, and we have to go
into a huddle and working this out on this track. But we have a precedent now,
-
We have authority in Section 9 and we are going to start in working out Parti-
cular allotments in Nevada. This agreement was put up to two boards in Nevada,
oven the. terms drafted and received their approval by the Boards before it was
taken out to Washington and they considered the checkerboard lands in Nevada,
Idaho and Utah.
We have already worked out a situation similar to this in District 1 in Utah -~
a similar situation, which wa3 successful.
39 -
When we come to the state land, I feel like askin£ the people i rem Arizona and .
No- Mexico to pardon me. State land is one thins up here and another tnin, down
there. In Utah four sections oi every township was given to the school, and is
Dart of their reliable, substantial setup. Here those four sections lie where
they wore granted originally, fundamentally, 9C* of them are not leased in Utah.
This is a serious situation. We are in n,: ,t:i ,U.nwith the State Land Board here
and the Utah Cattle Growers Association and trying to rent those lands and the
Government will later purchase those leases and then handle them in a -businesslike
kind of way*
tfe have the wagon grant situation in Oregon nnd wo have the state laws' in Oregon
and all of the northern states. I want to devote just a little time to this to
let you know what is bein^ done and I will now open that topic lor any discuss-
ions or question you dosire.
'We have touched on the subject of licenses, the subject of permits, the subject
of ranGe surveys, isolated tracts, railroad and wagon grants, state lands, and
checkerboard lands. We have a number of other topics loft.
I have an announcement to make that Utah District Ho. 3 will meet on the Roof
Garden of the Hotel Utah at 7:3C - all users of the ranajo in that district are
invited to attend. On the Roof Garden of the Hotel Utrh at 7:30 p.m.
"I am going to leave the matter of foes and finances until last, because when we
get on it, we don't want to be cut off by any other irrelevant macters.
On the matter of stock driveways there have been a larre number of entrances
which have beer abandoned and have reverted to nubile domain lands. In general,
cur rule has been to follow the advice and suction of the advisory board in
such matters. And a large number of stock driveways heretofore established and
found, not to be in accord with the uses, have been abandoned. Any questions on
s t o ckdr i v eway s .
MR. WAOT3 GARDNER, ST. GEORGE, UTAH. (Utah Grazinr District Ho. 4)!:
The exchange of privately owned lands that come over the driveways. -In Washing-
ton last summer;" they authorized us to go ahead and make those changes, if there
was some form of assurance, something worked out by the Department , the part ieo
could Go to the individuals and assure them that, in due tin- there would be a
deed or something in the way of , transfer, then we could t*;o ahead and use the e
lands. In our particular area, we 30 for 60 miles or more over a lot of pnvaoe
lands. Made trades .and exchanges to make possible that driveway, but we
haven't any forms or any legal matter that wo inn go ahead and make exefcan^oj to
the satisfaction of private land holders. What can we do?
MR.- CAJRFBITTSR: I suggest that you get the circular from "the land office,
which covers land exchanges, and in that you will find a form of application for
an exchange, then each nan will have to file his application for exchange.
It will then be forwarded to the Department and come back to the Board for recom-
mendation, and then be acted upon. The General Land Office here in the Federal
Building will have those circulars for distribution.
MR. WHINtfSRY: Just one question, Mr. Carponter, on that same line. In a
case where a man is given an allotment, and they happen to have 640 acres that
is not in, and they want to make exchange of.it,. should we follow the same pro-
cedure there?
MR. CMP3HE3R: If you expect to change the title on it. Are there any
other questions on stock driveways or trails. In the matter of allotments, at-
tention has been called to the fact that, several tines during the meeting, I
have mentioned a completed range survey. That is only a name to most of you.
Mr. Molohon, who has- char g» of range surveys, informs no that no wiU put up a
picture of the actual comploted ranr-;c survey of a district in ITcv; M0xico, and ho
will have it u-o on exhibition here in this room. In the committee on range sur-
veys, he is GoinS to take thorn ovor and show them what a completed ran^e survey
looks like, and Friday morning, and possibly Thursday evening ho will havo on
display here, cither on the mezzanine floor cr in this room, the completed 100?o
map 'of a district. It vail bo of groat interest to you to see that.
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The o s sontif.il 'features of the nap arc -the sane;' the carrypg capacity of each 40
aero tract and the eonnensurrtte ratings of .all private properties aro sl-^v/n, and
it shows how tho allotment is made.. It nay not all "be in ono "block. It fclvos;
you a very interesting picture, and they 'will ho put up 0:1 tho Board for your in-
spection. Are there any" questions on this natter of allotments?
MR* ALIDERSON, UTAH: Gentlemen, on the question of allocation or range ,we
call oursolvos tho stop-children from Idaho and TJtali, in Nevada District lip. 1.
I think we have "beaten the rest of you to that question, We have alroady re-
ceived an allotnent, First we objected to it. We attempted to, and wo thought
we would, provo that we had usod considerable noro of the. range in our private
operations for years. The Advisory Board would like to get -rid of us, and maybe
1 couldn't "blame then so, nuch. ( I think, maybe wo would do tho sane, if wo had
tho cane power, "but we haven1 1.' Now, then, they allot us about 40 percent of
the rouse that wo have formerly "boen using* It has already "been done. ,Sone
of our sheep ncn fron other districts say, "They can't do t that J" But they have
done it. W0 can1 t graze there. What are wo going to do?' That question looks
to ne like it is "being prematurely handled "by some districts. I took the trouble
of getting some data on what results this has already "brought about. SBhroo of
our nen, operating about a hand of sheep, 2500 head of owes perhaps, each,
stayed "back voluntarily and "bought hay.
Two of our nen were forced to stay "back by their financial backers. ^ They .would
not risk their money on a band of sheep that would have to be fed with the other
sheep on that snail amount of land. Three of them were forced to liquidate.
Twenty-two of us are going to tackle' it. Wo think that such premature action on
the allocation of the range should be stopped. The board advised us to appeal.
All right, they will do that, but an appeal is slow, We cannot winter there. ■
We have nevsr confined our operations to a small area, We think they should go
more carefully, I thank you. , . . it \. \
MR. CARPENTER; I am glad in the matter of allotments, that if they are
step-children, they have such an able advocate, . I
MR. R. J. CONWAY, CRAIG, COLORADO. (Colorado 'Crazing District No. 6): Mr.
Anderson, if you got your allotment, the other fellow — would that cut down on
his rights?
MR. ANDERSON: They did not give us an equal break. - We do not want to bo
set aside*
MR, J. M. MC EARLANE, SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH. (Utah Grazing District No. 2):
I think the most important . question before us toclay is the question of allot-
ments and we have had more complaints come' in from people who are pacing foes
and receiving nothing. Now, the- feel if they are go in- to get any fruits of
any sort, some part of the range must be set out so they will know what they aro
going to have, I don1 1 care whether you call it a license or a permit ~* just
so they have some range.
The cattle men are willing to pay for what they get, but they want to be sure
they get it. But they won't get it until we fix the allotments. In district 2
we have allotments, but no enforcement and I don't believe any range survey is
complete until you have made the allotments and tried them out. The allotments
represent the practical part and if wo are going to do anything with the Taylor
Bill we should have allotments and have them right away. (Applause)
MR. CARPENTER: It is plain all tho cowboys are applauding on that.
MR, MORONI A. SMITH, SALT LAICE CITY, UTAH.' (Utah Grazing. District No. 8):
I don't understand how you can make an allotment arrangement unless it is very
short and very temporary. They always have to get the same man to make the
investigation. Up to tho present time all the advisory boards that I have had
an,V contact .with, come fellow fi.aired that if he could get there first, he Y.'ov-.ld
be fixed up. The other fellow wouldn't got in. The boards have attempted to
make allotments without notifying the other licensees grazing there. And some
fellow ,-et thoir allotments and the board has at t otto ted to give -them allotments
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and "hey can make them, hut can they enforce them? I think that lioaU order.
?h. hoards are «orklne teo fait J when they make these allotment ■ without substan-
tial investigation. Every license should have a modlfyine order. That is impor-
tant to each and evezy licensee on the district. And we must have a heUor setup
in order to make them work, • i
MR. S. C. HYATT, HYATTVILLE , WYOMING. (Wyoming Grazing District No. 1):
In figuring out the pro rata range as used, as a commensurate radius, I think a
year lease would he ahout right. How will we go on a term allotment on a year
oasis? ,. , . : , ' i ■
MR. GAEPEMR: I don't see how a term permit can he hased on a less number
of years than the term permit. ., If the hase is. transferred a part of the permit
would follow with it. . ,
The question of enforcement was "brought up by Mr. Mac Far lane, ^st year we
worked it with a range rider. That led to legal difficulties, O^^ast prob-
lem-is the interstate movement hetwoen November 1st and December lbth, and this
year the four states were divided into four regions, Special! enforcement offi- .
cials were appointed nnd given a right to hire helpers in the 'program. I would
like to hear from you grazing men on your enforcement this fall. Any suggestions
about it or comments on it? '..<•:. \
MR. ELMER KING, TEASDALE , UTAH. (Utah Grazing District 1T<j. 5): On these
allotments *~ I have heen on two boards and we have tried to make these allot-
ments and the carrying capacity' of the ranges has a lot *o do with these allot-
ments. One range has had quite a lot of- rainfall and will carry twice the
number of stock one year it would another year.' The next year, if it Aoesnt
get any storm, it might carry only one hand of sheep, where this year with plenty
of storm it will carry two or three bands. So which year would you use in figur-
ing the carrying capacity? It would he a mighty hard question to decide.
MR. CARPENTERS Mr. King has called, attention to the neoessity of under-
standing what the climate will he in the future. It is pretty hard to do.
MR. R. C. ATKIN, ST. GEORGE, UTAH, .(/Arizona Grazing District Ho. 1): On .
the strip we were limited to* a five-mile Radius around water. Is the Interior
Department going .to make first use of one/ and second use of another?
MR. CARPENTER;' Yes, I heard the question, .and . I have heard it before and
it is Going to he settled, Mr.Atkin, but it can't he settled in a day and how
. many men would it take to keep. the cattle off the sheep allotments?
MR. ATKIN: If' they would give us some estra preferences, but to tie us
down and make ub stay in one place is not fair.
MR. CARPENTER: A compromise was worked out in one district with an area
• allotment for sheep along some water and the cattle drifted in and there was
trouble with sheep people. We- didn't have fences and wire and money enough .to
• fence it, so the cattle people agreed to give the sheepman twenty Percent more
allotment, provided they wouldn' t kick, and let the cattle drift. , Sid that
work out satisfactory? , ,. .- K ""
, VOIC.JJ It has. On the same situation, this :>.mtlomen fed a similar
situation and we allowed five sections, hetv.-oeri the sheofrnen^ and the cattlemen s
allotments. • . , ' '■ / ' <
MR. CARPENTER: I think, Mr. Atkin, that we can work this along similar
lines, giving a larger allotment to the sheep interest a^nd^ln order to take care
of the drift that oan*t /be prevented at /this time. And that is what our hoards
are for, gentlemen, at this -time. ;
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MB. J. A. TARTER, REISER, IDAHO (Idaho District tfo.l):" In Idaho Ho. 1, wo
have made aor.o 45 or 50 individual 'allotments in tho checkerboard land. Get the
fellows to £0 right out on tho land and made somo 45 or 50 private allotments on
tho checkerboard land, and I don't believe there has "boon a single appeal on
those allotments. In a very cases, vrhoro tho fellows couldn't agroo on the allot-
ments, tho Board handled it for then*
i
MR. CARPSiTTER: jlhat, gontlemon, comes from tho district in Idaho, where I
nontionod tho Regional Grazier was successful in working out individual allotments
in which v;o have had no appeals, and Mr. Tarter is just giving us evidence to
substantiate what was stated her. I am very clad to hoar from him, because I have
not had an opportunity to see those this year, but J have heard about then,1 and I
thin!: it is a big nark to tho credit of that Board and that Rogional Grazior, the
way they have handled that situation.
MR, IT. H. MEEKER, GTOTIS01I, COLO. (Colorado District N0. 3)| I do not know
what the experience of tho others lias boon in the ratter of this enforcement, but
we in our area in Colorado 3, endeavor to protoct some of tho scalier users of
tho range. Many of tho users wore honost in their endoavor to gather the stock,
but a certain percentage, very snail percentage in licensees, but perhaps a larger
percentage in livo stock, absolutoly and uttorly disregarded the fact that their
licenses had expired. I fool that you can make allotnonts. I. feel that you can
carry your Taylor Grazing Act completely thru, you can take up every subject here,
and unless you can enforce them, our sot-up is entirely too lame.
MR. CARPENTER; Mr. Rose is in charge of your enforcement, isn't ho?
MR. MEEKER; Yes.
MR. CARPENTER; Has ho taken any steps to remedy that situation?
MR. MEEKER; Mr. Rose lias boon up thoro several times, hit, with the limited
personnel that Grand Junction has apparently had, to got them on tho job at the
time that we neod them, it seoms almost impossible. Some of the people fool tho
penalty under the Taylor Grazing 'Act is too sovoro. .They feel that tho Boards
may bo a little slow in enforcing tho $500 — I believe it is — ponalty of tho
Grazing Act. Wo had, as you recognize, under our laid law, under adjudicated
lands, somo rocourse. As I understand from our attorneys, wo now have no re-
course. XIq hpvo not boon able to got nearly tho work done, and it is said that
it is lack of porsonnol. If that is tho sot-up, canft wo add -t- oven though
appropriations are hard to got *— can't we add enough to properly enforce this
Act? The big mail up there lias takon the feed from tho little fellow, tho fellow
whom I believe was to have been protected undor tho Taylor Grazing Act.
MR. CARPElJTERi I am glad to hoar of that instanco. I am sorry, of course,
to hear of any failure in any spot, but I want to know whether there has beon a
general failure. ApO there more spots lacking enforcement? Lot's hoar from it.
tfo are all hero togother and we are not afraid to face thorn.
MR. PAULEY, UTAH; I would like to ask the man who has beon so successful in
their allotments, if they have had a rango survey.
MR. TARTER; Ho, thoro lia3,not boon a range survey, The men who wore di-
rectly interested in this fight are. tho regional graziers, Every man around
there had an application for whatever righto ho thought he had, and he was noti-
fiod of the time and place of the mooting, and ho figured he had a right to ap-
pear, and ho presented his case, and, in every instanco, it was takon caro of.
MR. CARPENTER; Are thoro any more complaints .on lack of enforcement?
VOICE: I can't soo anjr use in waiting for surveys if, in tho most success-
ful allotment, that has not .boon done. Somo of thoso districts won't have tho
rango surveys until 1934. That i0 n, long while. I can't soo any use of waiting
for these rango surveys, when tho most successful allotmont wo have had has boon
gotten up without it. . '^
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MR. J. A. WILCCXSON, DoBSqpS, COLO. (Colo. District ITo.l): I would like to
say a word ahout Colorado No. 1. in regard to tho enforcement officers. ;ffe have
had some very successful mon, I think, working in our district. A lot of tho
sheep nncl cattle have boon cut off "by tho Board and were not allowed liconsos.
These mon, a lot of than, had planned to go on the winter range without a license
and take tho rait tor up with the courts, and these noil interceded to stop the:;,
and told then that they were not allowed on tho rango, and they stopped a groat
nany of then, and it was much easier to stop then from going on the rango than
to remove then when they were on. I think it has. saved a lot of litigation, and
caused people that had no license to take a different view of, it, and I think
they havo done a wonderful wQrk in Colorado No. 1. \
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MR. ffAYNS GARDN3R, ST. G20RGE, UTAH (Utah District No. 4): Just 'when should
tho Department of Investigation ho called in? I think we appreciate tile pen in
the Department of Investigation. Ti\ey are beginning to soo the situation. Buu I
dorJt appreciate it when a Department of Investigation ram Wants to count my nerd
without any warning from tho Grazing Dopartmont, when I an notified that the De-
partment of Instigation wants to count my outfit. It seems that there should be
at least warning from the ' Department of Interior before the E.iy nan comes out.
MR, CAaPi^raSR: His hord count od out all right; I know that.
MR. GARDH3R: flhy should a group of sheepmen, "because some cattle man makes
a report, why should they come out and count us without some notice from the De-
partment, If the sheoFJon ror>ortod to tho cattle men, would it ho fair, witnout
any warning at all, for -the O.I. man to come and ask that they he Counted. Tne
men who havo counted hove, "boon gontlomen in ovory respect. Ti-.oy have been very
considerate, "but it seems that tho, D.I. ran, coming without any warning at all,
without any consideration of what it was all about, was not appreciated.'
MR. CARPBNTER: Our gonera! rulo is not 'to 'call on" the D.I. until our own
' enforcement officers have- failed and wo aro trying to got a report case to take ^
to court. In some cases, reports got in 'and tho investigations are made kind oi
"short-cuttod", hut it isn't our intention to ;do that, and that is the first com-
plaint I have heard of such a matter. .,
J.1R. JOHN l/EEDLIN, HARPER, CK3. (Oregon District N0.3)j VJlion wo got our set-
up over there, called District 3, wo cut it up into six. units. tfe had our sot-
up there, and it was cut up into six districts — units, rather ~ and the sheep
men and the cow men began to talk about .allotments, Mr. Klemmo is our grazier
over there and he came down and told us it was our duty to sit down together and
talk it over and divide it up,' The sheep men and the cow men load aoout tnroo
' meetings, and we divided it up there, ovory unit that we had, in from throe to
fivo community allotments. In my particular allotment that I run in --^eli,
, and one other sheepman, we asked them' if they wanted to make an individual allot-
ment for tho sheep and they said, "No, we want to run together", and today wc • are
satisfied; wo have our community allotments. C^r line *• are there. We don't pay
much attontion to tho linos as far as the oattle are concerned, hut wo aro run-
ning more stock. *
In regard to our law enforcement, wo havo a rider thoroVand our sheepmen have
all stayed where they heloiv:, with the exception of one or^tewo this pring. 77*
have a few cattle men that have a littlo drift out, hut they .are trying to ,>t
them in as near as they can, and I don«t think we could have any better law en-
forcement than wo havo got, It soomc to mo like, as far as these allotments aro
concerned, if tho sheep men and. the cow men will go home and sit down among
themselves, and figure out what is right for each other, they don't. need to cone
to tho Department of the Interior- to ask then to allot it for thorn. TAey can
allot it themselves. And that is tho proper way to get it allotted.
MR, CARPD1ITER; • I wish that had been a radio broadcast, when ho said tint
all the shoop mon stayed where they should. I would -like the world to havc^eard
him. Cn tho matter of improvements, by tho way. V/o haven* t hoard muoh from ^o-
gon, but we were glad to hoar that kind of report. Do you realize there has been
several million dollars spent on these ranges in tho last few years? Wo nave
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just mcV'od- down to where we are using a certain part of the foes for ranee im-
provements. So I am going to open up tho subject of foes and finances in connec-
tion with ranee improvements, We will spend a little tire on range improvements '
and then we will go into the subject of foes and finances and savo some short time
for legislation.
Of every dollar of grazing foe that is <?hargecl, except on indian lands, Congress
has said that 50 cent3 of it shall bo returnod to the states, to "be used as the
state legislature nay direct, for the "benefit of the counties. Some states, thru
their state legislatures. — -notably Nevada and Oregon t— have said that it should
be returnod to the district advisory boards, to be used for rango betterment.
Some states, such as California, say .that that 50 cents should be used for range
betterment or predatory animal control. Somo states havo said, as my own' state
of Colorado, that that 50 cent 3 shall go, half of it, to tho general school fund,
and the county commissioner can say where the other half goes.
When wo come to legislation, it is going to be an interesting matter, and,you
will have an interesting report from your national committee. In the state of
Utah, wo figured up, just the other day, and that 50 cents amounts to 90 thousand
dollars this year, so it is a considerable sum, and its di position is a matter
of interest to every stock man, O^r future deponds on tho disposition of that
money. 25 cents of that dollar is to bo used by the Department for range im-
provements and their maintenance, and, following our usual custom, when it is to
be used by the Secretary of the Interior, the suggestion will first come from the
advisory board.
Many of the boards have token their 25 poroont-, which was returnod to many of
these districts, and havo used it to purchase material, and the C.C.C. camps
havo furnished the labor for the erection of the improvement . • In that manner,
not having to use their money 'for tho labor, they have made it go farther in
material. Are thore any questions on improvements, or tho uso of' this money?
MR. P. J. BRATTAIN, PAISLEY, ORE. (Oregon District ITo. 2): I am very much
interested in improvements. I sort of feel like the follow who whites a letter
and always adds, after tho lottcr, "Please oxcuse tho spelling", when I got up
before an audi once and try to say something. Bit I will try to explain to you
what is bothering me. As I said before, I want to talk about imprdvomonts. I
came hero to talk about improvement's on the range, I think, perhaps, at tho
present time, there is nothing concerning my fellow livestock operators in our
grazing unit and district that is more important than tho improvement of tho
range. In ordor to bring out the point that I want to imply, and to point out
to the Division of Grazing what wo are up against, I am going to describe our
situation there as it stands.
. ,i
We have had a meeting and havo divided the range between the different/ classes of
livestock, as wo wished to do it. Wo have taken in territory where we run in
common with tho sheop and tho cattle, and we also havo a cattle allotment allot-
ted off, and a spring range in another part oij the country. In ordor to create
circumstances that are favorable, we must bui])d 36 milos of fence. We also must
build around 20 waterholes in that grazing unit, H9w, then, in ordor to do that,
we neod labor or we need finances of, somo sort. As nearly as I can figure it out,
we must have around soven thousand dollars tor build 36 miles of fence .and 20
waterholes. Our, groat problem is: where is/this monoy coming from, and where is
the labor coming from. Perhaps $3,000 or better of this $7,000 is oxpendod, or
would bo expended , for labor.
N0w, then, we are also told that we must do something in the matter of congostion
of our livestock on that rango. Wo must either complete our plan or cut 40 per
cent. Probably a little hasty but I approciato that remark. That remark lias
spurred us to do somotldng in order to croato favorable conditions. Getting
right do\m to facts, wo need tho CCC camps, which we do not havo at' tho present
timo,g or wo need somo manner of financing, we don't ask for appropriation neces-
sarily, altho that would be acceptable. If the Government was ablo to finance it
in tho samo manner I was able to get $5,000 from an individual recently — borrow
it and croato a sinking fund.' Vfhy not? It was acceptable and agreeable with all '
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of us within that crazing unit, to do that, ffo could pay it all back within five
or six years. It was pointed out that perhaps that would not ho desirable, How,
then, I would like to have sonoboc'y offer Bono suggestions , how v/o aro going to
finance that kind of project, lie doubt there aro nony other units here that are
needing CCC carrps, and noro of then,
MR. CARPENTER: It is quite an ago-old probler.1 that Mr. Brittain has, as to
how to got nonoy when you haven1 1 cot it, rnd' without appropriations, I will say
in answer to your question, you ean reconnend the use of 25 percent of your fees
that aro paid in that district, t\z& you have, under your Oregon law, the return
of 50 percent of the fees, which you can use for improvements , and, further than
that, wo have no moans, unless wo have available sor.e of theso or.orgoncy CCC
camps to uso. Nov/, are there any other questions or suggestions on ir.prov orients?
MR. McGETTY, NEVADA: We have the idea over in NQvada, that the individual.
stock nan probably lias a "better idea as to what his range improvements should "be,
than any one else night have. So long as the money was coming thru taxation on
all of the taxpayers of the nation, expenditure thru the OCC canps r.ot with
favor. But I an inclined to think that, if they start spending the stockmen* s
money, they would rather have it spent under sono othor set-up. It soens to no
it night ho possible to allow the individual stockmen to nake tlie inprovonents on
their ranges as they seo fit, if nocossary, and that they night apply tho grazing
feos to tho public donain.
MR, CARPENTER: Tv,o CCC canps are not using any stockman1 s r.oney at all.
The 25 por cent to bo used is , for instance, if you want to put a water tank in
on tho range, you can reconnend that your 25 percent go into the purchase of that
tank, and then, without any further contribution from you, the CCC labor can put
it in and it is not charged against tho 'stock non at all. I an glad you raised
that point, because I want to cloar that up, '
MR. McGETTY: Aren't we approaching the point whore wo aro likoly to have to
finance those canps, if this continues?
MR. CARPENTER: FAat would be in the future, and certainly wo would not want
to go into that nethod of naking inprovenonts at our own expense?
MR. J. M. SMITH, CENTRAL, ARIZ. (Arizona District No. 4): I wish/to refer
tc the legislative natter of tho 50 percent. You have just got an added tax on
the cattle nan and livestock nan of your state-, and I think that this body of non
ought to go on record in the legislative committee, favoring that this 50 percent
of tho feos revert to the boards, tho advisory boards. If they want to raise ad-
ditional taxes for the genoral school fund, tnen v/o aro in favor of the livestock
nan paying his portion. But wo are paying a pee now for gracing privileges, and
wo want that fee, and in my nind I think it i/s very vital that this entire asson-
bLy go on record, before' this progran is ovor; that we favor this 50 porcont going
back to tho advisory boards for the uso and inprovonents of tho ranges, according
to tho recommendations of the advisory board.
MR. CARPENTER: The. national legislative committee rail be n3ked to draw up
sone form of the nodel law to be turned over to the stockmen, as individuals, to
place before their state legislatures, and tho natter will have to be thrashed
out in tho ton state legislatures. I see one state legislator fron Utah standing
up. Mr. Mat his fron Colorado*
•MR. MATHIS, COLORADO: In Colorado, where you have returned 50 porcont of
this to tho commissioner, or 25, has there been any othor adjustment nado in
the county taxes?
MR. CARPENTER:' No* • '. :• \
MR. MATHIS: T^en' it is an additional tax to the cattlonon?
MR. CARPENTER: Yes.
/
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MR. WKIinTSRY, COLORADO: It is oven worse than that. The legislature has
put 25 percont in the General school fund and then cone ahead and said it. shall
he proportioned according to the census in the school district. It is practically
taking this ' money away from tho stockmen1 s school districts and putting it in
the Viands of the town. I "believe that, in Colorado, wo shall have to have that
legislation amended, and I an strongly in favor of what the gentleman has, just
said hore, that us poople from Colorado should ask it he roturnod for the use mid
improvement of those ranges, to he used hy the hoards in Colorado — tho whole 50
percent, if you please.
MR. CARPENTER? I don!t "believe wa need further arguments to \ convince all
those hore that wo would like to have the money returnod to us. ^ho national law
says it shall "be oxpended as the state legislators diroct.. I don!'t holi eve that
can ho changed, 'hut your state legislators, I. "believo you \7ill find that .they
will take it up.
MR. PETER H3NRICHS, YERINGTOK, KSVADA (NQvada District Ho. 3): -.-Those fellows
wore slow on tho draw, they wore asleep at the switch, when that thing wont over.
This law said it was to go to tho Treasury, then it was to ho returned, and the
men at the head of tho stock mon in tho state of Nevada got "busy and got that
turned over to tho advisory hoards to use as they saw fit , The quostion is<vory
"broad, anything pertaining to the gbod of the range.
MR. CARPENTER: Nevada has led tho way J- IT0vada and Oregon — and Mr.
Honrichs is telling you so. /
MR. HENRI CHS: I have got an amondmont ,to add to it tliat will help us a lit-
tle hit mo re when it gots thru* /
'MR. CARPENTER: We havo ono topic only, left hero, and that is the matter of
foes and finances, and, "before wo tr2:e up fees, % .will make a statement on fi-
nances. W*ien the Division of Grazing was originally created in January of 1935,
there had "boon no appropriation mado for it, the appropriation year running from
July 1 to July ;L, so it was necessary for then to just "borrow men hy assignment
from other divisions and "bureaus of the Department of the Interior, such a3 the
Division of Investigations and General Land Office, mid G0ological Survoy. The
only new person -put on the payroll was myself, and I had to he paid out of the
Secretary's contingent fund. T^at was tho condition until July 1935.
Thon Congress passed an appropriation of $400,000, and a hundred thousand dollars,
of that was earmarked for tho expenses and paying of tho District Advisors. That,
left a sum of $300,000 for tho payment of the Division and their travel mid sun- •
dry expenses. Cut of that $300,000, we now have 45 men in the field, spread out
over the ten states. You know, there ie -about ono or two ^0' a region. They are
sproad pretty thin. A few of them are putting in their tiSje supervising the
range survey. Some of them put in their timo on onforcementv-othors meet with
you on the hoards and go over thoso applications. There has" hoen plenty to do.
I feol that, if there is any division of tho government tliat has worked this yoar
this division has. Wo sought, in the coming yoar, and with tho consent of the
Department, to have an increased appropriation, largoly to speed up thoso range ,
surveys, and wo asked for an increase to $800,000, which would, we thought,
amply take care of it. That was cut 'down hy tho director of the Budget to
$550,000, which is the shape 'in which it will go "before Congress, and Congross is
standing and whetting up a knifo on their hoot, getting reacly for us. I don't '.
know. how it will come out. If it goes thru, a largo part of it will go for raye
surveys.
We all want tho "budget "balanced. Wo all want oxponsos cut down. But, when it
comes to our own particular activity, wo hogin to coe tho need for more money.
We aro going to have to tako it, along with the rest of the country, and wo are
not going -to ho ahle to got everything 'We Want. The finance committee, two men-
hers from each state, vail have all tho facts of our finances "before thorn. We
will have very little, if any, increase in our appropriations next year. One
hundred thousand goes to the Boards, the other three fourths to the porr.anont
set-up. Next year, we hope there will ho an increase in it. That is tho situa-
tion, as to our financos, and I wish to say this — and I "believe you will ap-
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NPUPI
-3 rove of this way of doing; T^oro srafl 3ono sentiment that wo should overspend
our ar.ount , oncl go in for a deficiency appropriation. I just have nevor prac-
ticod Liy ov/n business that way, and I just could nover approvo of it. And wo
aro one division that lias a littlo something loft ovor at the ond of the year.
\7o bay oo subject to criticisn for not doing as r.;uch, "but ug will have something
loft over at tho ond of tho year.
Coming to tho subject of foes, you will romombor, last yoar, foos wore set at
fivo conts per head per nonth for cattlo and one cent per head per r:.onth for
•sheep. Tiaat fee has been for all of tho ton states, without any; differences.
In the past year, they have had a bad drouth in oastorn Montana. \ The eastern
Monona, and M0ntona districts, all but No; 4 in Central linntanay applied for
a rebate of tho foes, which was granted by the Department. T^at is the orly re-
bate that lias been appliod for, and that has boon .made this yoar) with the ,^_
exception of an application which oama from Nevada. M0st of tho Ifoos in Novada
are hold up by litigation, a restraining order koopin;; tho Doparttient from col-
lect k\£ the foes, so tho foos thoro. have bo-, n paid into court .and \ will bo hold
pending tho legislation, will oh has been pas sod, on tho ground that the fee is
unreasonable, bocauso it is a flat feu for all parts of tho range and based on
tho fact that there is no authority to issue a feo under liconsos, which come
under Section 2. That is, of course for the courts to say.
Your fees and finances committee, whon they neot, will go ovor finances, and I
feol, before it is taken up by states, we should have 3one general discussion
here as to whether such a foe was satisfactory, and as to its method of payment
by installments, or whether it was too much or to*, littlo, or what you think
about It. So wo will open tho subjoct of fees.
MR, NOBLITT, TT/OKIiTG; Districts Wo. 3, 4 and 5 in tf--oning are just boing.
completed, as I understand it. Plans aro to /bo proparod to issue licenses for
grazing baginning May 1, 1937,, 'on thoso throonow districts. I want to abfclMr.
Carpenter if wo will not be porr.itted to ope/rato our first year without the pay-
ment of any fees. That is, tho first year under license, 12 months from tho
first of noxt Hay. .•., \\ j ",.,. .
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MR. CARPENTER: That is the -method, Mr. Noblitt, that was followed in all
other districts. Tho first year ; of oporation no fee was charged. Will these new
districts have one year with no fees? I would like to hear the sentiment of
these district advisors in this matter. I have nevor had the question raised
before.
. MR. E. L. JAMESON, KINGMAN, ARIZONA. (Arizona Grazing District No. 2);
Maren 1936 was our first beginning and the first dav of July 1936 we paid up to
January 1, 1937. If there is such a rule as that we have never heard of it. I
have to say no member of our district has made any particular protest of any fee*
and wo feel we have our money's worth in the way of protections
-..,..• \ " / "J
MR. CARPENTER; Mr. Noblitt , could you hear Mr. Jameson?
/
MR. NOBLITTj However, up in Wyoming we were under tho impression that it
has been tho practice of char ging. no fee for tho first yenrNinder license. Of
course, we would like to have that extended' to usi
MR, J. V. TAYLOR, CARRI20Z0, NEW i.GXICC, (New Mexico Grazing District No.
4): I would like to know if the gentleman did not have tho use of the grass
this year when tho rest of them wero paying for nothing
MR. CARPENTER;. Mr. Noblitt, this is kind' of. a tough crowd.
MR. .NOBLITT; Ve have all been having the grass and we aro all willing to ,,
pay for it when we have an organization and know what we ore doingt
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MR. D. F. HUDSON, LANDER, WYOMING. (Wyoming Grazing District No. 2): It
has heen generally understood in our part of the state that -re would have the use'
of the ranee without paying the fees the first yoar after the district was setup.
All the stockmon in our district have mot us halfway in regard to the feeding of
grass and we have had very little grass or water there and in the future if we
have to pay for this ranee and have no more grass than we have now, the thing is
certri nly a failure. ' » ■
MR. CARPENTER: A very frank expression from Mr. -Hudson. •
MR. ED MAHAEFEY, GRAND VALLEY, COLORADO. (Colorado Grazing District No. 3):
The gentlemen have the advantage of our experimental stage that' the other states
have come through, When we were going into that experimental stage we did not
charge a fee. It is no experiment with you men in Wyoming. You are getting .he
advantage of the experimental stage that we have gone through, and you also have
the advantage of the grass the last few years. And along that line, from what I
saw of the Dig fat cattle from looming, you must have had hotter grass than we
had, too. • (Applause)
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MR. HUDSON: The cattle and sheep come out of other districts into ours. In
District No. 2 in Wyoming they have como out of District 1. We don't know what
to do with them. That is where our grass wont. If fat cattle came from Wyoming
they didn't come from District No. 2.
MR. CARPENTER: There are no fat cattle when we talk ahout fees, we all
agree to that.
*
MR. E. C. VAUGHN, BAKER, OREGON, • (Oregon Grazing District No. 6): We wore
organized in November 7, 1935, and we paid our 1936 dues and assessments in our
district.
MR. CARPENTER: Organized November , .1935, and paid 1936 dues. No further
argument than that.
MR. D. H. ADAMS, LAYTON ,• UTAH. (Utah Grazing District No. l) J District No.
1, Utah, was organized and we made our owns rules and regulations. The other
twenty-five or twenty-six districts did not tell District 1 what to do. I don t
believe it is the proper thing for the other districts to tell the advisory
board of Wyoming what to do with their profits. . I think it is entirely out of
place for the advisory "boards to say whether Wyoming is guilty or not guilty.
That is a question between doming and the Department. (Applause)
MR. CARPENTER: ■ Mr. Adams suggested it is out of place, but he tells them
anyway.
MR. MC ARTHUR: I wanted to ask if that state isn't part of the United States
Government and to say that my tenant and I have an agreement and are glad to pay
• those fees. • Br those fees we are taking care -of the. range, and we spend part of
the fees taking care of the range. We are willing to double the present fees if
jit would get the grass "back, •
MR. CARPENTER; I am listoning for applause on that. (Applause)
• Leaving then the question of these new districts, let us open r~
VOICE: I noted that in his statement in regard to those fees, his tenant
is paying them, not he, himself, « .
MR... JOHN MC MURRAY, OAKLEY \ IDAHO. - (Idaho Grazing District No. 2): In our
district we expect the first year, to operate without any fees. \We offer no
apology for it and if neoessary we will give reasons why, • \
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MR. C-iRPENTER: Another one of the new districts, and he joina with the^
new districts from Wyoming.. Are there any questions or discussion on the divi-
sion of foes? 1 1
• MR. J. PERKINS, OVERTON, NEVADA. (Nevada Grazing District No, 5): Why is
it the fees should go to the state legislatures and not to the maintenance of the
raneo itself? She object of the Grazing Act is to perpetuate and improve the
ranso and I think it would he no more than fair that seventy-five percent of
those fees should go hack into the range for its improvement and that would give
any stockman a "break for his money.
MR, CARPENTER: The reason, Mr. Perkins, is th^.t Congress said that half
the fees should go to the State legislatures diroct. In Nevada the state1 legis-
lature has directed that hack to you. So that you people in Nevada there al-
ready have seventy-five percent. The other states need to do most of the squal-
ling..
MR. JOHN DAVENPORT. (New Mexico Grazing District No. 2-a) : We have a new
district and we do not think we should pay any fees. If we pay these fees, do
we set any extra service?
MR. CARPENTER? They wish to join with the other new districts and then he
asks: "If we pay those fees, do we get any extra Service?" Does he got any ^
additional grass for the fee? No, sir, the conditions will he the same.
MR. DAVENPORT: I meant protection,
.
MR. CARPENTER: Neither additional grass, water or protection. You will
got the same service.
MR. GEORGE GOSE. (New Mexico Grazing District No., 2~b): We are a new
district and we are all willing to pay.. (Applause)
MR. HYATT:- Last year in Wyoming 1 we paid for it. We,paid our fees, most
of them, and I will say" we "are mighty thankful for the Taylor Act and for the.
protection we received and the little fee that we paid has heon repaid many
times. ' (Applause)
MR. CARPENTER: That is quite a statement from Wyoming, if you were here
last year. What about fees for 1937. Everybody seems to want to raise them.
MR. G. M. TIERNEY, CEDARVILLE , CALIFORNIA. (Nevada Grazing District NO. 2);
All of the new grazing districts should pay a fee, then we can hold the fees
down. We were all supposed to pay a fee last year. We came in in November and
paid for last year. What is, the matter with these new districts in not wanting
to pay a fee?
MR. CONWAY: I would like to ask if in 1937 the present grazing foes will
be the same. And if they can't .pay them, we might do a little better. We nught
increase them. And I move —
MR. CARPENTER: ■■ • „ . , mv •
We are not interested in motions at this time., mis ib
• a general discussion to assist -in the state discussions tomorrow. The Committee
on 'fees and finances will bring in a resolution as to applicability to new dis-
tricts. I
MR. O'NEILL of WYOMING:- I don't understand how anybody could make a motion
to increase the price on this, because no sheep or cattle men haVe made any
money in the last five years. I know it couldn't be done in the^last two years
to make any money with your livestock.
MR. CARPENTER;. Mr. O'lioill has only left the goat men and the horse men
to support the national. Government-*
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MR. FRANK MEANS, SAGUACHE , COLORADO . (Colorado Grating District No. 3): I
sincerely hope that the fees for 1937 will not "be raised. We are in a predica-
ment in Colorado. We were too slow on the trigger ^d. tne county commissioners
and school found got away with all the money and we would like to have an oppor-
tunity to ask our legislature to get the funds diverted to the proper place, and
if we now increase them, and the Colorado legislature, which is as greedy as any,
gets a hold of an increased fee, well, that would nerve as another source of
revenue, and I think we also ought to get it hack. I recollect in looking over
my papers of my file in 1906, when we paid $0.10 per head three entire seasons
on a cow. It got up to $1*00 a head in that came district and I will state this,
if we are going to increase these fees, the first thing wo know we will have the
fees in this organization comparable to the fees charged by the Forest Service —
always on the increase and never on the decrease without a great deal of argument
and trouble. No, I don't think wo should increase fees until we see where we
are.
MR, BALLARD, I would like to ask at this time if the Department contem-
plates a raise in the fees?. ,* '."':' ' «■ **
MR. CARPENTER: The Department has taken no stand on that position* They
are waiting for a recommendation from this body.of men before thoy take any
action.
I
MR. GEDDES of NEVADA: Nevada is already in the ur.fortunate position of
having asked too much, "but we feel that we have a legitimate "basis for asking
that the fees in Nevada he not set at the same rate as thoso.'set in the better
grazing areas of some other states.. It takes two'years to raise one lamb and
twelve pounds of wool in our state. We feel that .we have a legitimate argument
and that the*e fees should be sot by stntes, rather than by the country as a
whole. .
MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Geddes thinks that these fees should not be uniformly
levied, but should take into consideration the character of the ranges, i
■ME. SMITH of ARIZONA: , Relative to the grazing fees, most of the states up
state have not made this wh'ole 50$* Your advisory boards might not get it.
Let. us, before we even consider tho raising of any fee, lot us go back to our
legislatures and get this put back in the advisory board, and then when we find
out that. there is at least more than 25$ coming back to us and 25^ to the De-
partment of the Interior, and then we can talk about the raising of fees, but
not now. . •
MR. WRIGHT of NEVADA: What steps have been taken by the Department to fix
or determine if the proposed 1937 grazing fee is reasonable?
MR. CARPENTER;1 No particular steps have been made, Mr. Wright, in that res-
pect at all. It has just been left hero to be discussod and ,th.e recommendation
that came last year was regardea as a reasonable recommendation of a reasonable
fee. \
MR. WEIGHT: What steps havo been taken by .the Department tq determine
whether this fee is reasonable to apply uniformly to each area within the same
state? • I
MR. CARPENTER: As to the fees, no one in tho Department has \ ever consider-
ed thoy were anvthing but reasonable. That matter has never been 'discussed or
brought up. But we welcome discussion and I am sure that any point of view will
bo given every consideration by the Department.
MR. WRIGHT: When and where did you fix and determine whether this fee
should be made? • j
MR. .CARPENTER: The Department considers it was made out hero in/Salt Lake,
here last year.
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MR WRIGHT: No one back in Washington f/'ixed that?
CI
MR., CARPENTER: No, no one at all. No grazing "back in Washington. They, *
never think about it. •
MR. MO MURRAY of IDAHO: I under stand that the fee was* set by the stockmen
here?
MR. CARPENTER; Yes.
MR. MC MURRAY: I have asked them a number of times and they have told me
it was fixed toy Mr. Carpenter or the Secretary of the Interior,
MR. CARPENTER: Well, if you had been here last year you would have known
how it started.
MR. MO MURRAY: I am talking about cutting it until we get proper adjust-
ment. (Applause) When the receipts come in for the districts — there is
another chance for a tax. I think we ought to appeal to our Congress to amend
the Taylor Bill to see if we can't get this money back from the legislature.
You must be more prosperous than us in Idaho until we get proper distribution
of funds.
MR. KING: I believe this experimental stage of the grazing department
could be very detrimental duo to the condition of the livestock at the present
time and the Department men are not getting much benefit from the grazxng lands.
Until the lands are distributed and they have some grass to sell, I object to a
raise in fees. At this time I realize we are not getting any grass for the
money.
MR. CARPENTER: You would want to be the judge of the grass, wouldn't you,
Mr. King?
MR. KING: I would leave that up to the stockmen.
MR. STAJ3S: The only thing I have to say on the fees is not to increase
the fees ~ that is, not to raise them. Do not raise them for the benefit of
the livestock business. In all the states where you get all this money back to
the livestock men, that is going to be for the benefit of the stockmen. If you
raise the fees by the state as a whole, but if we can't for the benefit of all,
we want to graze to improve the conditions of the livestock business. We don t
want to have the fees increased at this time.
MR. CARPENTER: Do I state it right when I say, united we stand against a
raise in fees?
MR. P. J. BRATTAIN, PAISLEY, OREGON. (Oregon Grazing District; No. 2); In
listening to these arguments here and the question has been raised several times
about the disposition of this grazing fee that takes the circle around to the
state legislature, around to the county and finally back to the advisory board.
I can't see why wo can't take a short cut here. Why can't our advisory "boards
and stockmen prevail upon our congressmen to enact a law or amend that law so
that seventy-five nercent of our fee goes direct to the advisory board for dis-
position on the range and the remaining twenty-five percent to the Government.
We pay a tax on our livestock and we also pay a tax on our real estate — why
the different tax?
MR, CARPENTER: Gentlemen, it is a little past five now. Tomorrow morn-
ing at 9:00 you will assemble by state committees. If you do not know the room,
you can ask at the information desk* We would like to have all state committees
'assemble at 9:00, All district advisors are urged to come to that meeting and
each state committee will meet until noon. After they have discussed these sub-
jects they will olect two members of the nationa} committee on each of the six
big tonics and then those men will meet at 2:00 in this building at rooms
designated. Then Friday, the assembly will moot again in this room at 9:00 and
the committees will make reports and will bo diocucnod on the floor and voted
on. No one will speak or vote Friday except district advisors without the un-
animous consent of the house. At that time the vote will bo taken and ii
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requested, an individual poll will be taken by districts, by the delegates
voting from the districts.
MR. PETER HENRICHS, YERINGTON, NEVADA. (Nevada Grazing District No. 3):
Any of these people that are interested in that Nevada Law about the transfer-
ring of the money, I will be glad to make them a copy. • J
MR. CARPENTER: We have copied that law and it is on ^he program.
MR. HENRI CHS: Thank you*
(The meeting was adjourned at 5:15 p.m.)
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DISTRICT ADVISORS' CONVENTION
Salt Lake City, Utah
December 9, 10 and 11, 1936
. , *
THIRD DAY
Morning Session
(Meeting called to order at 9:00 aTm, , December 11, 1936, in the
Lafayette Ballroom, Hotel Utah, Salt Inke City, Utah).
MR. CARPENTER; Gentlemen, if you will find your seats we will open the
meeting. The order of "business this morning; will "be to hear the reports of the
national committees, and as wo call the committees, ask the. chairmen of the com-
mittees to come forward and I wish he would leave a copy of the resolutions in
front of the desk on the platform here.
We will consider the reading as a motion for adoption and then the matter will
be thrown apon for discussion "by the advisors only.* The vote will be taken by
voice and in case of division in the vote, any delegate or advisor oresent asking
to have the assembly polled, we will take the poll as follows! Beginning /alpha-
betically with Arizona, we will call each district, and the chairman of that
district, if he is present, or someone else delegated "by him to be the spokesman,
will announce how the four votes go. If only one man is present he will vote the
four votes. If more than four men are present, each will take his fractional
vote.
New Mexico has roquosted to vote their six districts altogether on all topics,
so with the consent of the assembly, the chairman of the New Mexico delegation
will simply give the twenty-four (24) votes from New Moxico.
Are there any questions as to the procedure before we call for the reports? If
not, I will ask the chairman of the Committee on Licenses, if he will come for-
ward and leave a copy of the resolutions on the desk. If you will please come
forward and read your resolutions to us, Yes, I see the chairman here, Mr*
Williams, if you will come forward a3 Chairman of the Committee on Licenses,
Have you an extra copy of your resolutions you can leave on the desk?
MR. E. D, WILLIAMS, MINERSVILLE , UTAH. (Utah Grazing District No. 3):
Gentlemen, I haven't had time to overlook our report, which was' submitted yestor-
day by the committee on licenses. We had some considerable discussion within
our meeting, and we did not arrive at all of the ideas unanimously, nevertheless
we are going to present to'y°u. thbso ideas that we did finally conform to and
leave it up for your consideration.
Motion made by Mr. Hay of Wyoming, and seconded by — the name is not mentioned —
that: It be resolved by the National Committee on Licenses that the determination
of the priority rule be left. to the Advisory Boards of each district of the
several states, (Applause)
I want to make a brief statement there, gentlemen, that we were so far apart upon
^he problem of priority that we could not get together on the priority period,
therefore, we decided to leave it up to the different states to settle their own
priority. We felt that the different states had so manv opinions and conditions
to work upon that we finally deoided the different states, should settle their
own priority rule.
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11 H11-1^. f u^iRui.i^i^p^Pf^^w^P^ffiipp^fl
.
Motion made fcy Mr. Hyatt of Wyoming and seconded by Mr. Adams of Utah that the
National Committee favor a Department policy in issuing licenses until such a
time as the several Advisory Boards feel that , they have reasonable knowledge on
which to issue permits > Carried unanimously.
Motion made by Mr. Gland of Colorado and seconded V Mr. Seeley of Utah, Resolved
by the National Committee on licenses that trie "Proposed New Interpretation o.
Preferences under The Taylor Act" be accepted in issuing licenses in 1937.
Carried unanimously. .
■Now, we have cne or two motions that wore made here that were defeated. If you
would like to hear them, I will read them to you. If not, I will just, submit the
motions and resolutions to our Director aud pass them as they were given. What
is your pleasure in that re^rd? (Audience signified that they did not wish to
hear the' defeated motions), Mr, Chairman, I move the adoption of the Committee
report. .
MR. CARPENTER: Thank you, Mr. Williams. Is it your pleasure to take these
up. separately and discuss them or' take the report as a whole?
VOICE: I move that we take them up separately.
VOICE: I second the motion.
MR. CARPENTER: The motion is made and seconded that these resolutions from
the National Committee en Licenses be taken up separately and discussed and I
take it you mean to. have them voted on separately. Any discussion on that motion.
Are you ready for the question? (Calls for question). V_^
All those in favor of the motion that the resolutions of the National Committee on
Licenses be taken up, discussed and voted on separately, all those in favor sign-
ify by raying aye. 'Contrary - no.. The ayes have it. Accordingly, I will read
the first part of the resolution. ,
The first resolution is as follows:. . "That U be resolved by the National Commites
' on Licenses that the determination of the priority rule be left to the Advisory
•Boards of each district of the several states". Is there any discussion on
that ?
MR. J. L, NISLSCN, FOUNTAIN GRJJSN , UTAH. (Utah Grazing District No. 2):
I am not in favor of that, I think ^e will have too much discrepancy — run-
ning from six months tc ten years. .Mr. Williams stated that the conditions are
so different. .1 do not think there can be any different in the matter oi prior-
ity in any district. I think the Department should have set that in the begin-
ning. Hew could their have been any difference in priority.
I am opposed to the resolution. I believe we should get somewhere together,
should set a minimum and a maximum to come i» between those too lines. I am
opposed to the resolution.
7e
MR. AIM FINDLAY, KAKAB , UTAH.
substitute motion in order?
(Arizona Grazing District No. l); Is a
■MR. CARPENTER: Yes,. sir, that is always proper.
MR. FINDLAY: Gentlemen of the convention, I move that the priority had in
all districts bo June 27, 1954. ,
MR. CARPENTER: A motion that a substitute resolution be offered in which
the priority date bo set at June 28th, (l presume you mean June 28tn, instead of
June 27th, as that was the date of the passage of the Taylor Act), has been made
■ Do I hear a second to that motion?
MR. EDGAR ERAY, RED VALE , COLORADO. (Colorado Grazing District No. 4): I
second it-.
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!
MR. CARPENTER: Is there any discussion on that substitute motion?
MR. BEATS I am as much interested as anybody in having a long priority,
but the idea is this. This Taylor Bill is a national law and the priorities to
my mind are going to ha,v© to be the same in all the districts. That is, if tho
lav; is to. stand up in the Court.
How, as to the time of the priority. Anybody knows, that will stop to .think,
that the man on the range when that Taylor Bill was passed has a priority. Here
is what I would like to see. I think Frank Means brought it out yesterday in the
Colorado delegation. The older your priority the better your right. (Applause)
If you had been there ten years, you are absolutely established and they can't
kick you out. However, if you were on the ground when that Taylor Bill was pass-
ed you have some rights, but the man on there /one year does not have the right
that the man on there two or three or four ye^rs has.
But, if we are to avoid litigation, let us make a rule that will hold water. If
our rules are going to stand up in court, let us make them right. It is absolu-
tely ridiculous for one state to have one year and another state next to it has
ten years. Let us have, the older the priority the better. Let us have the
date the bill was passed as the prioritv date.
MR. J. M. SMITH, CENTRAL, ARIZONA. (Arizona Grazing District No. 4): Ii
rise to a point of order. V7e have a motion before the house that we adopt the
recommendation of the committee. The latter motion has not been voted down.
The first motion is still before the house, Amend it, but I don't think you:
can substitute it.
* !
MR. CARPENTER: The point is well taken. If tho man that offered the1 first
motion cares to amend it — i
A
MR. EINDLAY: I understand, Mr. 'Carpenter, that you ruled —
MR. CARPENTER: I have reversed my ruling and it will have to bo offered as
an amendment and discussed before the amendment is voted on,
MR. FINDLAY: I move to amend the priority date to be considered as June
28, 1934.
MR. CARPENTER: Instead of putting it in a motion, the amendment is proper
and before the house. Any discussion on the amendment? Are you ready for the
question? The question you -are now voting on is, whether the resolutions that
the Resolution Committee made', that the priority date should be left to the sep-^
arate district boards of the states, or whether tho amendment, which is that it
should not bo left to the states, but set as the date of the passage of tho Act ,f»
in all districts in the ten western states, should be accepted.
MR, V. \7. BRCT.7N, OGDEN , UTAH. (Nevada Grazing District No. 1): I mako a
motion that we poll by individual votes instead of by districts.
MR. CARPENTER: Mr. Brown has made a point of order, that we vote by person
instead of districts. I wish to say that we do not have a list of the delegates
here. Each district will poll. VTe do not have a complete list of all the lole-
gates and I could not poll by individuals. Also, in my opening remarks I stated
that we would poll by districts at tho request of any one individual.
The Chair will rule that motion out of order for that reason. The question is
to amend tho original motion and make a uniform rule of priority. All those in
favor of the motion, signify by saving Aya« Those opposed - No. Tho No's have
it. The amendment is not carried.
TCe now continue the discussion of the original motion. The original motion was:
"That it be resolved by the National Commit toe on Licenses that the determination
of the priority rule be left to the Advisory Boards of each district of the
several states". All those in favor signify by saying Are* Contrary - No. The
Ayes have it. The motion is carried.
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*T|[PJPf^*f
The second resolution is as follows: "That the National Committee favor .a De-
partment policy in issuing licenses until such a time as the several Advisory
Boards fool that they have reasonable knowledge on which to issue permit a". To I
hear any discussion on that point? Are you ready for the question? All those in
favor of the second resolution, which is: "That the National Committee favor a
Department policy in issuing licenses until such a. time as the several Advisory
Boards foel that they have reasonable knowledge on which to issue licenses —
MR. J". D. NOBLITT, COIOTILLE, TWO. : (Wyo. Grazing Ti strict 3To, 4): j.,
Mr. Chairman, I think you used the word "licerises" instead of "permit s .
•
MR, CARP3NT3R: I will read it again then, Mr, N0blitt. "That the National
Committee favor a Department policy in issuing licenses until such a time, as tne
several Advisory Boards feol that they have reasonable knowledge on whicn to is-
sue permits."
MR. NOBLITT: T^at is correct.
MR. CARPSNTER: Are you ready for the question? All those in favor of the
resolution, signify by saying'Ayo. Those opposed, go. The .Ayes Jiave it. The mo-
tion is carried.
The third resolution is as follows: "Resolved by the National Committee on ,
Licenses that the 'Proposed Now Interpretation of Preferences under The xaylor
Act1 he acceptod in issuing licenses in 1937." \
I will read that again: "Resolved ,hy the National Committee on licenses that the
'Proposed New Interpretation of Preferences under the Taylor Act he accepted in
issuing licenses in 1937." I'll as* -someone on that- committee what the ^Proposed
New Interpretation1 is, because. this refers to a proposed new interpretation.
MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. ^airman, some of the rales that the Department got off
regarding priority.
MR. CARPSNT3R: I will read those New Interpretations for you. "The proposed
changes in the Grazing Regulations to carry these provisions into effect are to
substitute the following for Pago 2 of the Rul/es of Ma. .^,1936, to wit: .—
"A qualified applicant will be considered in k preferred classification if ho is a
membor of any one of the following four classes:
(1) Landowners engaged in the livestock business.
(2) Bono, fide occupants.
(3) Bona fide settlors.
(4) Owners of water of water rights.
"The following definitions will assist in determining who belongs in said classes:
"A landowner must be in "the livestock business" and not simply ".an owner of live-
stock. An occupant to be bona fide must show that ho actually occupies land to
the exclusion of others for at least the period for which such land is subject to
grazing Such exclusive occupation may be by fencing or otherwise excluding
trespassers, Posting notices unaccompanied by actual possession, or part time ,
seasonal use by grazing livestock, will not be considered occupancy. Any land
claimed to be occupied must bo held under a right such as to entitle the applicant
to possession. Lands to which the applicant has no lawful right of occupation
cannot be made the basis of a claim of bona fide occupation. (The last sentence
abo^ may also bo stated as follows: Occupancy of lands to which there is no law-
ful right cannot be bona fide.) I
"A bona fide settler is one who maintains actual residence under lawful authority
on the land to the exclusion of a rosiclenoe olsowhere. An owner of water of w^ter
rights must show that it is for stock water purposes and held under proper author-
ity from the state. Qualified preferred applicants will bo given licenses to
graze the available public range insofar as necessary to give a proper use to the.
lands, wator or water rights owned, occupied or leased by them.
"In determining what such proper use is, the following definitions will guide:
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— mp*
»^w^_ , .
• * hi
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"Property - shall consiot of land and its products or stock wator owned or •*
controlled and used according to local custom in livostock operations. Such prop- •
orty is:
; .(a) Dependent if public range is required to maintain its proper use.;
(b) Hoar if it is close enough to "bo used in connection with public
range in usual and customary livestock operations. In caso tho
public range is inadequate for all the near properties, then those
which are nearest in distance and acc0s3ib.il it}' to tho public
range shall be given preference over those not so near.
(c) Commensurate for a license for a certain number of livostock if
such property provides proper protection according to local custom
for 3aid livestock during the period for which tho public range is
inadequate, , • . I
"Qualified applicants who besides being preferred, as above sot forth, also havo
grazing privileges recognized and acknowledged shall have such privileges safe-
guarded by being given consideration before such applicants who do not hayelsuch
grazing privileges. : • I '
"Grazing privileges recognized and acknowledged shall be called priority of use,
which is defined as follows;
*
"Priority of use - is such use of the public rahgo before June 29, 1934, as tho
Secretary of the Interior, or his administrative officers, by reference to local
customs, statutes, decisions of the courts", or other compotent sources of evidence,
may find to havo been recognized and acknowl edged as a propor uso of both tho pub-
lic range .and the lands or water used in connection therewith.
"Issuance of licenses - after rosidents within or immediately adjacent to a graz-
ing district having dependent commensurate property are provided with range for
not to exceed ten (10) head of work or milch stock kept for domestic purposes,
the following named classes, in tho order named, will be considered for licenses:
;. 1, Qualified applicants of the preferred class who also havo priority
of uso, to an extent not to exceed such priority of use or commensu-
rate rating. S
2. Qualified applicants of the preferred class who do not have priority
of uso, to an extent not to exceed their commensurate rating.
3. Qualified applicants who aro not in the preferred class."
I will say, in general explanation, gentlemen, this is' simply a clarification of
tho Pules of March 2. It does not amount to a very material change of the Pule3
of March 2. I believe tho committee gave some thought and study and considera-
tion to that. Is that correct, Mr. Williams?
MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir, we wont over each and every one of these problems
and discussed them pro and con and finally arrived at the resolutions presented.
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MR. 17HIMBRY, GUNNISON, COLORADO. (Colorado Grazing District No. 3): I
would like to ask if they carefully checked the water right question. It seems
to me that there was a little difference there in readin.; that resolution than-
there was "before* It is one of the vital things we are particularly interested
in in Colorado. . \ i ,
I ! ii
MR. CARPENTER: I will read the definition of property again then, Mr, {
tfhinnory. "Property shall consist of land and its products or stock watejr owned
or controlled and used according to local custom in livestock operations." That
'MR. FINDLAY: I would like
i'
water could he commensurate
ike to know, Mr. Carpenter, how under your definition
— under your definition of commensurability?
MR. CARPENTER: The definition of commensurability is:' »I;J such property
(that would he land or water) provides proper protection according to local cus-
tom for said livestock during the period for which the public range is inade-
quat e . " /
V
MR. FINDLAY: Under "C" — under propertv, is what I had~referonco to.
MR. CARPENTER: "Property is commensurate for a license according to local
custom for said livestock" — is that what yon meant, Mr. Findlay? If you have
water that will provide protection for livestock for the period for which the
public range is inadequate, then your property is commensurate. In the South
that definition does not equally fit in with thoso conditions.
MR. FINDLAY: In that case, Mr. Carpenter, how can you give the owner of
water priority over the owner of land? , '■
MR.. CARPENTER: You cannot. The owner of land and the owner of water stand
together. In New Mexico and Arizona if you do not have water, no matter 'what
land holdings you have, you cannot get a license.
MR. EINDLAY: In Arizona it all depends on water.
MR. CARPENTER: The understanding on those southern ranges is that water is
the primary factor. I believo that rule has boon accented "in Now Mexico and with
some qualifications in other places, where the feed arrangement does not enter
into the picture.
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,iG practically the same. . \ \\ ,
\ ;
MR. tfHINNERY: That seems to he the same. \
\
MR. CARPENTER: Yes, sir. Any further questions? Aro you ready for the -
question?
i i
MR, WILLIAMS! In discussing that we had a feeling, some of us, that we had
better accept the definition 'rather than debate it and "ball" it up more. We
suggest that in the future those rules should not bo sent out to the advisop
, I boards prior to their adoption nt the meeting here.
■:;!.'"'.-■ ' /
MR. CARPENTER: In an extended clarification of rules like that, that was
not really a rule, but a clarification of the Rules of March 2. I may say* that
this clarification of rules was worked out vefy carefully by a Committee, then
submitted to the Department and then again taken up by the Committee.
/
MR. J. E. JENSEN, MORONI, UTAH. (Utah Grazing District No. 2): I would
like to have the definition of a mari in the livestock business and one who owns
livestock. • /
MR. CARPENTER: He- wants to know the clpf inition ct£ a man in the livestock
business and one who owns livestock — a man who owns oiis cow or sheep is the
owner of livestock and it in possible to any hn is in the livestock business to
a certain extent for such a small amount. . But, although the amount may bo very
, small, if he depends upon the income, derivod from that stock he is then — he is
in the livestock business. It is conceivable that a man with one cow could be
in the livestock business. It is distinction without being a difference, ,
~
_m
MR* WHINNERY: Another question on water. Are there any possibilities that
if this rule goes through that our irrigation water does not count?
MR. CARPENTER: No, the definition says water used in livestock operations,
Water U3ed for irrigation purposes, if used for livestock operations would "bo
considered as commensurate, "but if used only for watering fields would not be
considered. Do I make that plain? Such part of irrigation water as is diverted
and used for the support of livestock would be. considered water in the terms of
this Act. Purchase or rental of water is considered as control. Is thatjcor-
rect of what has -been done in New Mexico? That has been my understanding
all along.
MR. WHINNERY:
water priority?
Does that bring up stock ownor priority or the owner of the
MR. CARPENTER: Range rights go with water, the same as they do with the
land, Mr. Whinnery.
MR. GILMER: I think for the sake of clearing these records as to votes,
we should poll these votes.
MR. CARPENTER; The Chair stated that at the request of any one man, 't would
poll the assembly. I will accept the voice vote otherwise.
MR. GILMER; You poll by mass first?
MR. CARPENTER: Yes, I will call for a voice vote first, and if it is over-
whelming I will declare the motion carried. But anyone has a right to ask to
have the vote polled and ,it will be polled immediately by districts. Are you
ready for the question? All thoso in favor say Aye- those contrary - No. The
Ayes have it. I believe those are all the motions of the committee on licenses.
Is that correct , Mr, Williams'?
c
I will ask the Chairman of the Committee on Permits to come forward. Leave a
copy on the desk. Otherwise, come forward and read those resolutions.
•MR.' A. D. BROWNFIELD, FLORIDA, NEW MEXICO. (New Mexico Grazing District No.
3): Friends, it looked like' war might break out any minute. Wo finally settled
down and emerged without any bruises. We considered first, and had a very able
explanation by Mr.. Kerr, on the difference between licenses and permits. And
the provision for licenses first under Section 2 and then permits under Section 3
of the Act. We discussed v/hether the setup necessary in ordor to have the •
qualifications of the permittee should be altered, and we decided to leave that
as it is. Then preferences 1 — the same, that is moaning to say> the citizens
and the state authorized corporations.
Third, the newer clause, and that one a great many overlooked the McCarren amend-
ment to the act, meaning that if the setup is under mortgage at the expiration
of the license period, the Government is to be held to issue a permit. And the
duration of the permit may be from one year up to ten years. Ten 'years is the
maximum and that is left in the beginning to the Divisioi. of Grazing, whether in
the beginning the permits will be from one year, two, or more. 1
The permits and the priority brought about the major part of the discussion and
there seemed to be a great deal of uneasiness in the minds of those in our com-
mittee and a great deal seemed to interpret, oven though Mr. Kerr gave us a very
full explanation as to what would happen when we go on the permit system, that
the word "priority" goes" out of the picture. They thought if that happened, we
had better stay in the license period.
Yet , we are making an effort to go forward and we decided we wanted to got on
permits as soon as possible. The word "uso" in Section 3 of the Act, whore
grazing privileges recognized and acknowledged shall be adequately safeguarded,
was construed to bo your protection. Any ranch unit properly setup and/ going,
their commensurate property was adequately safeguarded.
1
/
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■|CT^TWP5P5|iW|iPi
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There was a good deal of uneasiness then about property- developed subsequent to
the Act. Would the individual developing a bose land, developing his water, get!
a right... The committee decided that that piece of property could not bo .inter-
preted as commensurate.
Then there was another arrangement entered into and that wan the so-called home-
steaders. Are the nen who "bought a tax title to a piece of land that had not
been opened for years, had not had any use, but at the time new improvements
placed in the way of more development and water, could that land get a right
and would it be classed as commensurate property? The Committee felt that, H
now, if I get off wrong — there was so much said, there was so many talking
several times and we only came out with one resolution ~~ I may not got it quite
right and if I do not, I sincerely hope you will correct me because I am trying
to interpret the meaning of what I understood you meant and what was not reduced
to writing.
1 i i
Then, to get back to the subject. This piece of property that bad had water
developed on it prior to the Act and had been used prior to the priority of use
date, that was fixed in issuing licenses would be rated as commensurate property
and carried a right.
Then, wo got down to the problem of the degree of dependency of commensurate
nroeerty and that is what I have just finished saying as to how to rate commen-
surate base ^rooerty over another. In allocating public range to individuals,
of use of individuals to amend the allotments and. I see no way to decide on that .
except to leave it to the Advisory Boards, because they are the only ones who
really know how your property and my property ranks in use and water developed
and those other ratings which are necessary to decide upon. Shall I read this
resolution?
ME. CARPENTER: Yes, sir.
MR. BROWHFIELD; Now, we brought out only one resolution and in order to
'-stabilize the industrv, and we all felt that a permit had more stability than a
license, particularly with, the loan corporations and that a fellow could mort-
gage his entire setup, and that is subject to all rights carried with property.
The individual is left out when we get on permits and are dealing with the lands -
the commensurate property only. So, wo leave you this resolution:
RESOLVED that the Division of Grazing issue term permits upon recommendation of
the Advisory Board in the District affected, which shall includo_ seventy-five
percert of the allotment recommended .for any ranch unit or range setup in pro-
portion to commensurate property owned or controlled; that the twenty- five per-
cent of the allotment and numbers of livestock shall have a temporary license
until such time as the Range Survey program is completed.
MR. CARPENTER: Would you please read this resolution again, Mr, Brownfield?
MR. BROWNFIELD: "Resolved that the Division of Grazing issue term permits
upon recommendation of the Advisory Board in the Distrct affected, which shall
include seventy-five percent of the allotment recommended for any- ranch unit or
range setup in proportion to commensurate property owned or controlled; that the
twenty-five percent of the allotment and numbers of livestock shall have a
temporary license until such time as the Range Survey Program is completed.
MR. JONES: I wou
will be at the discret
or will they all have t'o be issued?
Id like to inquire whon these permits are issued if they
ion of the boards. Can the boards use their discretion
MR. CARPENTER: Was it your intention that all be considered?
MR. BROWNTIELD: I think whon a number of ranch units are in a position to
go on a permit arrangement ; that they should be permitted to do so.
/ . '
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MR« CARPENTER: Whether the survey had been completed .f or the entire dis-
trict or not. Seventy-five -oercent term perfaits can be issued on any part of the
district when they start in to issue thorn on recommendation of the district
board. Is that correct, Mr. Brownfield?
MR. BROWNFIELD: Yes.
MR. CARPENTER: Is it your pleasure to rote 0:1 this resolution?
i : '■•
"VOICE; I make that motion.
, • ! •
VOICE: I second it.
MR. CARPENTER: The motion is made and seconded that this resolution of
the Committee on Permits: "Resolved that the Division of Grazing issue term
permits u"non recommendation of the Advisory Board in the District affected, which
shall include seventy-five percent of the allotment recommended for any ranch
unit or range setup in proportion to commensurate property owned or controlled;
that the twenty-five percent of the allotment and numbers of livestock shall
have a temporary license until such time as the Range Survey program is completed",
be adopted as re-.d. ..... All those in favor say Aye - contrary ~ No, The
Ayes have it. I' ■
MR. FINDLAY: I would like a vote on that by district.
MR. CARPENTER: Before polling by districts, I am going to read the resolu-
tion again. "RESOLVED that the Division of Grazing issue term permits upon rec-
ommendation of the Advisory Board in the District affected; which shall include
seventy-five percent of the allotment recommended for any ranch unit or range, tf
setup in proportion to commensurate property owned or controlled; that the
twenty-five percent of the allotment and numbers of livestock shall have a tem-
porary license until such time as the Range Survey program is completed." Is
that correct , Mr. Brownfield?
MR. BROWNFIELD: Yes.
MR. S. J. WTATT, CRAIG, COLORADO. (Colorado Grazing District No. 6): How
can you get down to a term permit basis before the capacity of the range has
been determined. Too many pitfalls in that.
MR. J. M. WILSON, SAFFORD, ARIZONA. (Arizona Grazing District No. 4): The
last words, "the Range Survey program is completed" do 1 understand that to mean
if you have an allotment sunder consideration. That is a little vague.
MR. CARPENTER: The range survey program referred to is a complete checkup
on all of the dependent properties near the district, a complete gauge of the
carrying capacity of the public lands within the district, a complete working
out of whatever allotments of lands found advisable to make. You cannot get
away from this, that permits and allotments are Beared into together.
MR. JONES: Until the range survey was completed, what kind of permits
would bo given?
MR. CARPENTER: Under this resoluti-on it would be up to seventy-five Per-
cent of the allotment recommended for any ranch setup,
MR. FINDLAY: It seems to me the resolution puts authority on the advisory
boards so that if they felt that the allotments were not complete, so that the
.term permit will be granted.
MR. JONES: I don't think you got me quite clear. The question that I
raised was the way I under r.tand it, that this seventy-five percent is to be
permanent and the twenty-five percent temporary to any man who has a permit
issued to him. Not seventy-five percent left over of the applicants. Is this
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— 2r^— .
n • ' '
^■wppp
■
/
"board going to "be allowed to issue permits fco one or two in that district and
leave the others on a license system ', or will they have to consider all the
applicants as permittees?
MR. VTYATT: I do not like that resolution. Every advisory board in this
reom knows there are too many pitfalls ahead.- Unless you get the capacity '
first. The Division of Grazing rill .be put in a bad position. There will be
turmoil.
I •
MR. D. H. ADAMS, LAYTON, UTAH. (Utah Grazing District No. l) : It s"eems '•
to mo that where you issue seventy-five percent of the stock allotted to ]one ,,i
man in one part of the district, before the range is completely survived, that
someone on the other part of the district is -not going to be issued a license.
I think there are too many pitfalls, like the gentleman from Colorado said,
V7ait until the general survey has been made.
MR. CARPENTER} Do you wish to offer an amendment to this resolution, Mr.
Adams ?
. • " • • I
MR. ADAMS: Yes, sir, that permits be granted them on the ratio of the1
carrying capacity of the range, when the range has "been surveyed.
MR. CARPENTER; The amendment has been offered to this resolution to the
effect that, I will re-state it, that permits be only issued after the range
surveys are completed.
MR. ADAMS: That is correct.
MR. CARPENTER: That is stating it simply. 'Do I hear a second?
MR. SMITH of ARIZONA: The motion.haG carried and announced b5r the chairman
as carried and the gentleman has asked a pnll from the house. I think the amend-
ment is out of order until that motion is taken care of.
i
MR. WHINNERY; I think you ruled on that.
MR. CARPENTER: We failed to carry out the poll because the discussion
came on then, ftoes the maker of the motion for the poll want a discussion now
or the poll.
MR. EINDLAY: The discussion is what I want.
MR. SMITH of ARIZONA: If some of the gentlemen who voted for the motion
want to make a motion to re-consider the motion and the house wishes to re-
consider, then you can re-open it for the house. But you have declared the
motion carried. This gentleman has asked for a poll.. You said the motion was
carried. Now, we have got to have a poll or somebody who voted for the motion
will have to ask to have it re-oonsidered.
MR. CARPENTER; I am going to ask for the discussion to consider and then
we will vote over again. All those in favor say Aye - contrary - No. The .Ayes
have it - the motion is carried. The motion is carried and we will vote later
on the amendment to it. .
MR. SMITH of ARIZONA.: I have no desire to get technical here, but I think
we should proceed orderly, and ap a man who voted for the motion, I make a motion
that we move for re-consideration.
KIR. FINDLAY: I maintain the motion was not carried, It was only carried
conditionally. I make a motion for a poll and it is not carried until it is
carried completely*
MR. CARPENTER: I thought wo were going to learn range rights, but we are
going to learn parliamentary law.
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i
MR. SMITH of ARIZONA: As you will find out, after the chair has called for
a vote on a motion and that motion has teen announced as carried, that closes
the motion. This gentlemen has asked for a poll of the house. There was no more
debate on that and if the poll carries tho motion again, there- is no way to re-
open the question again.
MR. WYATT: In order to expedite matters ,. would it "be in order to make a
motion that this other motion "bo rescinded? j, ;
MR. CARPEKTER: I think we will stay away frcm any more motions. Tho chair
will rule that the motion is not yet carried until the poll shows the motion
lost or made, and all discussion will pertain to the amendment and as soon as
the discussion is over we will proceed' on the amendment.. The amendment offered
was that permits he not issued until tho range surveys have heen completed. ■
MR. -NOBLITT: Will the man please clarify that?
i
MR. CARPENTER: I think you are clarified now. There is an amendment up to
the motion. The motion was that seventy-five percent of the allotments be issued
and twenty-five percent he held up. The amendment was that no permits he issued
until range surveys he completed. That is what we are discussing. I have, sum-
marized it only.
i
MR. MATHIS: I would like to talk on the amendment to the motion. The^
seventy-five percent was left entirely up to the advisory hoards. I am in favor
of the amendment to the motion. I think where you have a Class A license you
have vour permit in the hag. I don't thinjc it is feeing to hurt your credit any
to delav some on the permits. Why reserve twenty-five percent when we can dis-
cuss the hundred percent with the same information availahle.- We are already
protected according to the hill, on any loans that we have heen hearing talked
of here. I don't think any financial institutions are worrying at all if you
have a Class A permit or license, and they would rather we would know our graz-
ing business and he sure we arc right when we issue the permits, and when we
have all the information availahle and necessary data, we will he in a position
to make it one hundred percent. I am in favor of the .amendment to the motion.
MR. WYATT: That comes1' from a hanker. How good, will a man's credit he. if
after the capacity of the range is determined he is cut down twenty-five percent.
That will not helu his credit. That will not give the hanker the proper pro-
tection. The range survey has not made their report yet, hut they will and they
have asked the Division of Grazing to put on a larger force, and if this group
will insist on it, there is no question hut that the Division of Grazing will do
it, and push this matter ahead as fast as possihle. Like the gentleman from
Arizona, I am with tho amendment.
MR. BALI^J I helieve that you can hear me here. We appointed our com-
mittees and each state has "been represented. I helieve I will hegin this like
the lawyer does. "Your honor, please we ohject." We appointed our committees
on this' and each state was represented and I take it, you appointed the hest
men you had. If you didn't, you should have done, and I helieve^this committee
should he sustained and the resolution passed as recommended. If( this amend-
ment carries, I can see indefinite delays. We were told here yesterday that the
personnel to carry out this range survey was low, and that there \vas no immedi-
ate prospect of getting this personnel augmented to any & eat extent. We are
fighting against these delays and if you please we resist the motion to amend. ■
(Applause)
MR. TAYLOR of NEW MEXICO; . I wonder if this amendment would not place each
district in this position. On a contested case it might hang in the courts for
years, It might stop the issuance of permits in an entire district. Tho reso-
lution is left in your hands. We heard here last year, everything was tied in
at tho -discretion of the local advisory hoards. This resolution offered hy the
committee leaves it entirely at the discretion of tho local hoards, wijjjh all
federal employees as members of that hoard. They are going to act fairly with
the hest interest of the entire district at heart. I think we should issue
- 64 j
/
Formit"s~to rtrVWll.e our industry and got emqr from those licenses as fast as we .
can. I am- against the amendment.
UR.OMER: I think permits should he issued as^soon as the advisor:/ .hoards
BW m iher ar0 the people who have the first hand information and tne people
Z have thence to Jrt'th. first hand information J^S^';*^
ing evidenoo as to what a man's qualifications are, an,.. ?° *f £f **°£ *S °°f
plfte without that evidence. A license is a temporary thi bg fori t
credit rating. I don't seo how a credit man could consider it very seriously in
a credit setup. At Winnomucca, .at a recent conference it came out that tony
operators wore almost on the rocks because they needed federal aid and credit ,
and could not get it until permits were issued. For that reason I am in favor
of making pornfts as coon as possible and I think the advisory hoards could:
handle that hotter than any other way. (Applauso)
MR. TOODt I am in favor of issuing these permits -"cording to the wishes
of the advisory hoards of the different districts on t» basie of the carry ng
capacity fixed hy the different hoards until the survey is made. Upplaupej
MR. SMITH of ARI20HA: I would like to call your attention, to th;> ^port
here in the program in the case of Idaho, where it is estimated that tne range
.., f n^4.«j ^ -iqak "NTorr ---mi . Fertlemen that have your range sur
survey will do completed m 1946. hov o OU , ge nz permit We
VFr3 completed, now. do you want to wait until i,y-ib reioro yuu 6 r
h y nave had a lot'of /rouble with the Forest in getting en year perm its and
re are very much interest ahout the permits. Je want to s abili " our^8J°c^
suff cfent numhers to complete this work. I think we are ?-««^»*8^'
the resolution as adopted hy the Resolution Committee and I am in favor
resolution and not the amendment. (Applause)
MR. CARPEEER: In ordor that there may ho no confusion, the\ issuance of
permit inTe district -U. not ho delved -cause the survey is not complete^
.h:%fLia~Llhr^v:y1isTompretedSwrtnti; S district. ^ is the
i question at issue.
MR. HYATT: There was submitted to this assemhly hy the License Committee
a res"n that when the advisory hoards felt that they had su ---t da a to
issue term permits, they could. Hot,, we all agree those districts .ill have
have a range survey made. What way aro we leaning t
MR.' GARDNER: They are leaving us twenty-five percent figuring that any
think^S gTto S^L
ma ne1heBr^ge and surveying those range's. Hew let the ^"°^°-*° ™f
. these estimations and let the Department prove that we are wrong. I therefore
. .stand for this resolution without any amendments.
MR, J0H3S; I would like to have Mr. Vaughn make a statement.
MR. VAUGHN:. Gentlemen, this is a great opportunity. Oregon is in favor
, cut. lAuunu.. nunuj.ui.io , _#4.° „ „.„„i„tfi -pirvov of the commensurate
of licenses or permits heing issued alter a complete survey o si_
■ property. We do not feel that the advisory hoards wr. to ta« the ^esponsi
Mlity of guesaing at a man's commensurate property. He do not want to Trait
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'1
—
until wo have a complete range survey made, therefore the original resolution or
the amendment thereto does not fit, We want the medium. We want the permits
issued up to seventy-five percent of the applicant's commensurate property
extent after that survey has "been made by the Division of Grazing. I wonder if
1 have made that plain to you, that we want the permits after the property, is sur-
veyed. We do not want to vw.it for the range surveys. We feel that the advisory
hoards are competent to determine the carrying capacity of that range. That is
all;
MR« CARPENTER: It may not "be necessary to elaborate on what Mr. Vaughn
said, because ho made it very clear. Range surveys are divided into a checkup
of carrying capacity and a- range survey of the range. Mr. Vaughn wants a survey
made, but he does not want to wait for the carrying capacity of the range, i
MR* LEE: Mr.- Carpenter', I am opposed to the amendment and in favor of the
committee report. I am surprised and disappointed to find that the minority of
the members of this convention distrusts themselves and their own judgment, , I
feel that they should not be so distrustfulr i
VOICE: We all feel very deeply for Mr, Lee. It is going to be a very long
time between tho figures and the estimates.
MR. CARPENTER: I want to say this to everyone, under the amendment to the
motion there is nothing that will prevent New Mexico from consid6ring and issuing
licenses — permits, within the very near future.
MR. LEE: We certainly appreciate the attitude of the Department.
MR. CARPENTER: 'That would be included within the amendment. There is
nothing in the amendment that prevents going right into permits, lit is simply
that no district shall consider permits until the range survey is completed..
MR. STASS: How are you going to do it without knowing the carrying capacity
of the range down there, and at least seventy-five percent. And then after you
get that in my district, the whole capacity v/as exhausted by seventy-five per-
cent; What are you going to do with the other twenty-five percent.^ Will you
kill them. (Applause) The board would have to know, would have to have evi-
dence of each individual' s capacity and of our commensurate property,, Then
there would be no delay.
MR. CARPENTER: That is an election talk.
MR. J. B. WRITE, PARADISE, UTAH. (Utah Grazing District No. l): ,1 am
going to say, any term permits should not be issued until we determine 'carrying
capacity of the range and the commensurate rig-its of the permittees* I believe
if we issue term permits we are going to got into a lot of difficulty. It is
much easier to make adjustments and issuo those term permits after we determine
the facts. Therefore, I am in favor of the amendment to the motion. (Applause)
/
(Calls for Question) /
• /
MR. PERKINS: The mike might m£® them understand better than I can. It
seems to me, friends, that there is a lot of'uscloss discussion and since there
has been this committee appointed to work out this detail in this act , and as
•here seems to have been given to each committee, certain discrotionary facts
which would enable them to act in the best .interest of the district which they
represent. And this survey committee was to determine the carrying capacity of
the range, as I understand it. That should be completed as soon as possible and
upon tho report of the survey committee to the advisory boards would be made.
Then the advisory boards would bo able to act intelligently as to the issuing of
licences or permits.
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wm —
,|li '' : I
Now, if there could "be some medium betreen the survey committee and the advisory
boards, if there could be something that would enable the range .survey committee
'to complete that report a3 soon' as possible so that the advisor;/ board might get
their report to act* upon, or where there has been' information supplied to the^
advisory board that they can go ahead and act on their knowlodgo and information
together with that of a survey committee, they could go ahead and issue those
permits. And I believe the Resolution Committee had those things! in mind, and I
do not believe we are going to go very far amiss if wo leave the matter as it is,
and it would be my suggestion that every committee use its own judgment, and
everyono put himself in the position of the other fellow, that we \rd£ht allll have
a fair and sauare deal in the matter, that the thin/: will go throng V
The difficulties will be local and minor and can be adjusted to tne satisfaction
of the district.
, . i
MR. CECIL: If this question is illustrated much more. we won't know whore
we are. , /
MR, CARPENTER: Are you reads' for the question? All those in favor Isay Aye.
Contrar- - No. We will poll the delegation. / ********
First lot me say, that there will be no poll /taken until everybody knows what he
is voting on. I have been asked questions which led me to believe tnat there is
some cloudiness as to the issue. Some have hskod.— would the twenty-five per-
cent not granted permits read to another Government program of killing stock.
That is not so. I have been asked if that would force a reduction of that twenty-
five percent of the stock. That is not so. We will answer questions and correct
any misunderstandings if you will bring them to me.
MR. WHINNERY: I would like to ask if the amendment carries, if we will go
back to the resolution.
MR. CARPENTER: If the amendment is carried, that ends it. That is to say,
. it. will be the answer of the assembly here that range permits will' be issued.
i-vi
MR. WHINNERY: It kills the original recommendation?
MR. CARPENTER; Yes, sir. .
MR. MC MURRAY: Would the advisory board in each district pass on this?
MR. CARPENTER: After this range survey is completed?^
MR. MC MURRAY: No, they have their own choice of putting this-into effect
when this range survey is completed* is that correct?
MR. CARPENTER: That is true. They do not have to do it until this dis-
trict is completely surveyed and they desire to do it.
MR. WILLIAMS: I would like to call your attention to the fact that there
has been a resolution voted upon and passed this morning by the license com-
mittee, that these permits be not issued until after the range survey has been,_
made. Now, we are coming along and trying to set aside that which is already
carried* Therefore, I am favoring the amendment to the motion — simply on , 4
those rules, that we voted unanimously hero this morning that there be no per-
mits issued until after this survey was made.
MR. HYATT: May I suggest that you re-read the resolution by the license
committee?
MR. CARPENTER: You will listen to the resolution already adopted as recom-
mended by the license committee which is as follows: "Motion No. 2. KESOLVM) by
the National Committee on Licenses, motion bv Mr, Hyatt of Wyoming and seconded
by Mr. Adams of Utah, that the National Committee favor a Department policy in
issuing licenses until such a time as the several advisory boards feel that they
67 -
^PW^7^^^^^^^^pP^^Jw?fW!P^^|Pf^W
havo reasonable knowledge on which to issue permits."
I call your attention to the fact. that the "reasonable knowledge" might re baaed
on, their own knowledge and so it is not in conflict at the time.
v
JUDGE COX: This question occurs to my mind, if you vote in fa/or of this
amendment, you have used in the amendment the word "comDleted" . You might make ,
ra situation like this; you 'might send the boys out and they come in with a
survey, submit it to the advisory "fcoard, but they might refuse to accept.it.
John Doe standing on the side line is dissatisfied with thit survey. Ho' files
an appeal. They hear it. They decide against him. He takes it up to tho
Director and the Secretary of the Interior and then into the courts. During all
that time, your survey is' not completed. With that word "completed" you strangle
what hps been done in tho other motion and here by the amendment you take that
discretion away and got the possibility of dragging it out maybe for six months
or six years before you can get that survey completed. I think that word is
dangerous. For that reason I would bo opposed to the amendment with that word
"completed" in it.
MR. CARPENTER: I wish to offer another construction of that word. When
the range survey has been mod.e and laid before the Board and accepted, it will
be started to be put into operation and will not wait for individual cases to ,.
prosecute and appeal. When a majority p-rt of the board thinks the:- are ready, ^
they will start into operation in spite of any particular man thore. . * *
MR. KA.THIS: Does it not say within the law that they do not issue permits
until this range survey has been completed and handed to the Board.
MR. CARPENTER: There is nothing in the law making it necessary to have a
range survey.
MR. MATHISr Isn't the advisory board and the Division of Grazing bound to
agree?
MR. CARPENTER; The advisory board recommends the issuance of a permit and
the Division of Grazing issues it. The two concur in that. It clarifies this
issue a little, which I do because these questions are asked. There is a ques-
tion which duties should the board have, and what should the Government do for
them? Gentlemen, I' am well aware of the western feeling for resourcefulness.
I filed on a desert claim in 1907 and I ran all my ovT: ditches with a spirit
level and a nail in it. In that little town, I served on the Town Board, and
thore was a fellow in there and we got together and decided instead of paying
an engineer, we would -do tho work and save the money, tfe ran sewer lines over
all the town, and when we got through, we ran three of the laterals upside down,-
so the water run back into the houses. ' Then we had to hire an engineer, which
cost us $400.00, .and r/e hod to got out and re-dig all those ditches. I have
carried flags for engineers, when the water ran straight up hill.
I feel that we need solf-reliance, but the real question here is whether you
want to be certain whon serving on the board, or whether you want to venture a
guess on this thing. Any more questions on this?
MR, SMITH of ARIZONA.: I really felt that in tho advisor:/ boards using
their discration, it may not bo altogether a guess, as to whether we are making
those nermits from a guess standpoint. I think the advisory boards should be
careful about issuing those permits, especially since they have got the Division
of Grazing to cooperate with them, ^e have got the two interested parties —
you advisory boards and you Division of Gracing. They don't say that we have to
issue those permits at any time. I hate to see a man's hands tied, and I want
to see them in a uosition to do something. T7o don't have to wait until the last
little bit has been gone over -by tho Division of Grazing, You fellows are
limited, and while I realize that, then we are limited.
MR. CARPEITT3R: I think we have opened this question about three times.
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MR.- SMITH of ARIZONA: A point of ordor. 7e arc discussing this amend-
ment. It appears to me a question was called on it.
MR. CARPENTER: Are you ready for the question to "be voted on "by districts?
Vo will call the role "by districts and the chairman wi 11 'announce the result of
the four votes — four votes -in favor of the motion or four votes against the
motion, which is in favor of the amendment, or he will split the votes. Any
questions on how to vote?
All right, we will call the role and take the vote down. A vote Yes is in favor
of the amendment which would he in favor of delaying the issuance of permits
until all of the range surveys are completed. A vote Ho would he against the
amendment •
MR. ADAMS: I think it would clarify matters some if the word "completed"
was omitted.
MR. CARPENTER: Do you want 'to withdraw the word "completed"? Do you have
the "oermission of the second? \
MR* FINDLAY: Yes.
MR. CARPENTER: tfill you state it?
i
MR. ADAMS: That no permits he issued until the range survey is made.
MR. CARPENTER: "That no permits he issued until the range survey is made".
MR. ADAMS: That will he all right. Thon your word "completed" is left out
MR. CECIL. The previous question has "been raised. I think we should now
vote.
J,
MR. CARPENTER: V/e will now vote on the amendment: Ho permits he issued
until the range survey has /been made. A vote Yes is in favor of that amendment
and a vote No is in favor of the original motion.
VOICE: Some of the voters would like to 'know what -\o you moon "by the
word "completed"? /
/
MR. CARPENTER: As there is no tfebster'a Dictionary ohtainahle, we are
going to vote on this question.
(This question was voted on hy states. The list of
districts was read hy Mr. J. H. Leech.)
/
- 69 -
RESULT OF POLL BY DISTRICTS ON
THE MMDMEET: NO PERMITS BE ISSUED UNTIL THE
RANGE SURVEY HAS BEEN WADE
!
S-t-nt.P
TH st.ri r.t
Yes
1NU
Arizona
1 '
*
2
4
4 .
1
i
3
4
California
1
2
j|
4
4
Colorado
1
2
4
3
1
-
3
4
4
6
A
' 4
.i
Idaho
"1
2
3
4
•
4
4
4
4
Montana
1
2
3
4
A
4
4
4
Nevada
i
5
1
2
3
4
2
»
2
4
4
4
4
/
5
i
3
New Mexico
2a
4
4
2h
3
!
4
4
4
5
i
4
6
4
Oregon
1
2
3
4
5
6
4
4
4
4
Utah
1
2
4
1
3/4
2 1/4
■
3
3
1
4
5
1
1
3
3
6
3
1
. 7
2
2\
• 8
4
Wyoming
1
2 ■
3
4
5
4
4
4
4
4
TOTALS
58
3/4
137 lU
I • I-
1 , J
I .
I
W. CARPENTER: Results of the vote: JSP votes in favor °^° m0^°n'
X37 votes against the a—ent. The aW* on is st gwjj^"^
original motion stands and we are -read, fox diocussion
Cone on up to the mike, Mr. Vaughn. ■
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^_--
MR, CARPENTER: In ordor to clarify this question, with the consent of tho
na&or of the notion, I an going to try to simplify it. Tho original notion, as
proposed by Mr. Brov/nfield, chairman of tho committee, is as follows: "Resolved
that the Division of Grazing issue tern perr.it r. upon recommendation of the Advi-
sory Board in the District affected, which shall include 75$ of the allotment re-
commended for any ranch unit or range setup in proportion to commensurate property
ovmod or controlled; that the 25$ of the allotment and nun'oers of livestock shall
havo a temporary license until such tine as the Range Survey program is completed."
How, as I understand Mr. Vaughn1 s amendment, it would "be to add in six words, as
follows: "Resolved that the Division of Grazing issue term permits — " and add
these words: "when the commensurate property survey is completed, upon recom-
mendation of the Advisory Board — " and so on. Would that be correct, Mr, Vaughn?
MR. VAUGHN: We would accept that.
MR. CARPENTER; If you would accept that, that simply addo the words: "when
the commensurate property survey is completed.". Do I hear a second to that amend-
ment?
VOICE: Second,
MR. CARPENTER: Motion is r.ado and seconded that an amendment be offered to
the original motion, and that the words, "when tho commensurate property survey is
conpleted" be added in the notion as discussed. Any discussion on that motion?
MR. SPALDING: May I ask in what order you are going to make tho surveys of
commensurate property? He has got voted down "by an overwhelming majority "until
after the range survey was made", and now we are going to inject a phrase that
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i
MR. VAUGHN, OREGON: Oregon wishes to offer, as an amendment to tho original
resolution that, when commensurate property surveys are conpleted, and approved
"by the advisory "board and the Division of Grazing, all Class A applicants will "bo
issued permits for 75 percent of tho range available, and tenporary licenses for
the remaining 25 percent. It is plain to see, gentlemen, when a district, within
itself* can't agree within a fraction of a man, that there has got to bo some
compromises made, and I think it is a cinch that something concrete bo arrived at
so that all the advisory boards have got something to stand on. If you hove got ,
a concrete policy, thruout tho grazing area, to back up the advisory boards, you
have got something to stand on when you render a decision.
■
It scons to mo that a lot of you gentlemen serving in an advisory capacity, must
have your successors pointed out. Up in our country, we are not in office inde-
finitely. We don't know who our successors might be. Wo v.buld^like to see a uni-
form ruling thruout the grazing area, that will give the advisory boards something
to base their ruling on, and we don't think that it is necessary to hold up tho
issuing of permits until the range survey is made. We believe that the advisory
boards are capable of arriving at somewhere near the carrying capacity of the
range, but wo do not believe it is -within tho discretion of tho advisory boards .
to determine your neighbor's cozrr.ensurability. Therefore the roason for the
amendment. f •
MR, WILLIAMS: I would like the gentleman from Oregon to explain why he *.
wants to put in that 25 .percent. J
MR. VAUGHN: A compromise.
MR. WILLIAMS: Why not compromise on the 100 percent.
MR. WHINNERY: I wonder whether or not tho committee on this report has cov-
ered the entire situation when they say Clo,ss A. If I remember the rules,1 Class 1
defines common surability and tho standing of tho applicant as to his common sur-*
ability. Class A defines whether or not that property is dopendent upon the pub-
lic range. It seems to me there should be an amendment there to accomplish what
they wish to accomplish, and that should be, Mr. Chairman, Class 1-A should be
put- in there, if they are going to consider conmensurability at all.
/
/
will hold u.3 up until the property •survey ip made. In what order doos tho Depart-
nent contemplate making those survoys.
MR. CARP3NT3R: Y.ou will find tho order designated in the oxhi"bit to your
program, which separates commensurate property and range surveys, and shows the
estimate of the range survey division as to how soon they can complete it. In
tho north, it is one way, and in the couth, it is another way,, "because they can
work the year 'round. Up here, we can mot make a range survoy, of courso, in the
wintor. How that will work in each territory is shown on one of your exhibits to
your program. Any discussion? Are you in favor of the notion? All those in
favor of the amendment, signify "by saying "Aye". *** Opposed, "No". *** ' The
NO's havo it. Aro you ready for tho original motion? All those in favor' of tho
notion as made "by tho chairman of the core." it too, signify "by saying "Aye". ' ***
Opposed, "No." *** Motion is carried. I will ask the chairman of the commit too'
on foes and finances to make his report at this tine. Tho; chairman of tho
national committee on fees and finances, '
MR. E, L. JAMESON, KINGMAN, ARIZONA: I was very fortunate yesterday, in be-
ing put on a committee that didii't have anything to do. Had no arguments, 'only
a. "bout six or seven hours, something like that. Our report, you will no tied, is
short:
"Tfo, your national committee on fees and finances, ^QCiZ leave to submit the follow-
ing report:
"1. It is recommended that there ho no change in* fees for licenses during the
year of 1937,
"2. This committee is unanimously agreed that tho ma.tter of charging fees in :low
districts during the first year of administration is a matter to "bo decided by^i
each particular district and the Secretary of the Interior, and this committoe,
therefore, make no recommendation.
"3. It is recommended that if and when permits aro granted, during the season of
1937, no change shall he made in grazing fees.
"4. It is recommended that there he no fees charged for trailing licenses on
stock driveways, hut whore water is provided "by artificial means, that the charge
"be the cost of producing such water, and that there also ho a charge for tho cost
of policing tho stock driveways."
I move the adoption of the committee* 6 report.
MR. EINDLAY: VT^ero does the foe come from.? You aro not chJarging tho drivor
any feo , hut you are charging tho foe for watering purposes?
MR. JAMESON: That was the intent.
MR. CARPENTER: Do you^rish to a.ct on tho recommendations separately, or on
the report as a whole?
VOICES; As a whole.
MR. CARPENTER; Those in favor of adopting tho four resolutions on foes and
finances, signify by saying .Aye, *** Goosed, No. *** The Ayes have it.
There has "been a littlo confusion in tho minds of some ahout a suit to restrain
tho collection of foes in the State of H©v,nda, and, "because wo do not wish any
mi Guilder standing on that, I am going to ask if * there is anyone here who cares to
. Snake an explanation, so that we will know clearly why that suit was instituted,
and what was involved in that suit.
- 72 -
pap r
r ■
*»»
>'VT--+*n
W
I.IR. tf. B, vTRIGHT, DESTH, 1IEYADA: I especially appreciate the privilege, not
"being an accredited delegate, to address this group, and I wish to thank not only
the Chairman, "but the state delegates, for the courtesy extended to Nevada, of
allowing us a few moments to explain our position. You know, when a cow nan
talks on technical legal questions, he is in a difficult spot. therefore, I
trust no one will ask no technical quostiorisL I think Hr. Carpenter has already
riven mo the answer, only, in my caso, I would state I don't have any logal vol-
umes with lie; therefore we will go forward, j His reference was to tho dictionary.
Last year, I had the honor of prc-senting Hevada1 s general statement, and, at that
■tine, I attempted to make clear our attitude that we wore not desiring froc
range. Ue have every wish to pay for what wo got. I also attempted to explain
to you that wo feel. wo have "been paying for the range for a number of years, duo
to our tax set-up, under which only 11 percent of the entire area of the ',state is
in private ownership, one half of that 11 percent belonging to the railroads and
which land wo leaso. Therefore, it is not a question of free use vorsus pay.
As a ground work, to clarify our position, I must call your attontion to the dif-
ference "between tho Taylor Grazing Act and tho forest set-up, and, in so doing,
I do not want anyone to misconstrue my renarks as being antagonistic or in1 favor
of either sot-up. I simply present facts to you to mill over in your mind, For
about thirty years — and w.e might odd at this tine that this difference is an
important consideration for you, due to the fact that there is a definite r.ovo to
concentrate tho two grazing services either under the Department of Agriculture .
or tho Department of Intorior — for about thirty years, you have "boon ^ operating
on the forest under a grazing sot-up which is a. "by-product of the service. In
othor words, grazing is secondary. You are regulated "by departmental rules a.nd
regulations, solely. The Forest act was "brought *nbout "by a-presidential proclama-
tion.
If the Taylor Grazing Act has any ono great advantage,' as has "been pointed out to
you "by Director Carpentor on many occasions, it is the fact that you have a "basic
law, designed primarily for grazing, and designed to stabilize tho livostock in-
dustry dependent upon tho public ranges, ITow, then, grazing is the first consid-
eration undor the Taylor Act. This Act not only limits those who are to ho regu-
lated, "but it places certain administrative limitations upon those who aro direct-
ing application of tho act. Our theory in Novada is simply this: if v/o have a
basic grazing law, it is highly important that conduct under tho law "be confined
to the limitations of the law, particul.arly in tho initial stages, for that nV
when tho die is cast. If you get away from tho law, it is just a matter of timo
until you have a set-up which will "bo controlled entirely "by departmental regula-
tions.
Now, this suit is a friendly suit. I might say to you that the relations between
"the stock mon of Nevada and the Department of Grazing are most cordial at all
times. Wo have no antagonism over there. T7e are not attempting to "be oh s tract ion-
ists. I think it is a rather short-sighted view, to consider that an attempt to
crystallize law is an obstruction. T7o have, on occasion, heard Mr. Carpenter
state that many of the so things will ho ironed out thru a period of years, rela-
tive to crystallizing ambiguous parts of the law. The Department of the Interior
has their logal advice in their solicitors' department. Tho individual stock man
has his legal, advice in his attorneys. Sack, of course, has confidence in his
legal advisor. However, as in all things, diversifications o£ opinion arise,
and, in our x^articular caso, our attorneys advise that a fee undor Section 2 of
tho Act is not logal.
The question, therefore, arises: Do we wish to "brush asido the technical legal
phase of it, and accept a fee, or do wo wish to abide by the law, which provides,
in Section 3 of tho Act, that the Secretary of the Interior may collect a reason-
able fee in each and over;/ case, fixed and determined upon tho issuance of per-
mits. H0w, to us it lias seemod vory important that we stay within tho law, in
order to prevent an arbitrary sot-up. ITow, in order to emphasize that, I can re-
fer you to tho hoarings beforo tho various congressional, committees, and, on vari-
ous occasions, our legislators voicod .apprehension relative to a government
bureau being set up which might prevent the normal operation of the industry, .
and it was because of this apprehension that certain limitations wore written
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upwp
into the Act. Nov/, there are other features in this Act, if one was out simply
to causo headaches and "be an obstructionist , that wo boliovo could "be legitimately
attackod. That is not the purpose. The purposo is to crystallize and to deter-
mine whether or not a Department can put. their own interpretation's upon this Act
and can ctrotch it to such a "broad oxtont that, for example, under Section 2,
thoy can collect a foe without the issuance of permits. Administrators of the
lav/ — and I think that Mr, Carpenter is no exception in this; in fact, I ' am sure
he i3 not — welcome attempts to "bring a"bout such crystallisation and clarifica-
tion, and the sooner these thiiv;& C£*o settled, t&o "better.
i
Nov/, another limitation in there,. to bring out what I referred to as restrictive
limitations, is the so-called McCarron limitation, which was reforrod to this
morning. It is granted that a few v/ords in there woro rather unfortunate, "but
don't "bo confused in that feature of tho -provision, which provides that the
value of tho grazing unit shall not "be impaired. That is tho essence, not .that a
nan may "be in debt, and that is one of- their restrictive limitations.
In order to "boar out what I have said, with regard to this "being a friendly
suit and not an attack upon tho Act, and not 'an attempt to obstruct it, I, wish to
read you the opinion of Judge Yankwieh of tho Federal Court. You know, attorneys
have devious ways of doing things. -They always exhaust all avenues, and, as wa3
expected, the original case, filed in. tho st.->te court, was transferred to tho
foderal court "by tho Government , the reason "being that the Government maintained
the state court had no jurisdiction. Cur attorneys maintained, for technical
roasons, that the federal court had no jurisdiction.
In tho first heat, we won, as wo are now "back in tho state court. Bu^» just to
clarify the picture with regard to the Act itself, I wish to read you just a
brief statement taken from Judge Yarkwich's opinion:
"The plaintiffs do not question the right of the United States Government, thru
Congress, to rogulato the use of any part of its public domain, nor do thoy ques-
tion tho right of Congress to enact the Taylor Grazing Act or the delegation of
power to tho Secretary of the Intorior under tho Act, to requiro the payment of a
license foo. They assert a right not contrary to the Act, but one under it.
What is that right? Each of them asks to be relieved of the iDaynent of grazing
fees by virtue of clained authorized rules and regulations. Thoy question merely
the right of tho Secretary of the Interior to. demand a license fee for a tempo-
rary, revocable permit."
In this instance, he uses the word "per. ".it" ' in place of "license". That is the
essence of the suit and the purpose of the suit. At this time, I wish to refer-
you to our statement last year, that Nevada stock men stand at all times ready to
cooporate and assist in the furtherance of all constructive a.t tempts at range
regulation, which we recognize the necessity of. Thank 3rou.
MR, CARPENTER: I can add nothing to that clear statement, except to say
that, as a lawyer, I glory in tho fact that wo have a system of government , /.
whereby any citizen, no matter how humble, can go to the courts and question any
administrative department, no matter how great, and v/o, of courso, wish to pro-^
serve that, and this is a demonstration of that right being presorved in' that way.
GENTLEMAN WOK MONTANA; ' I move that a mimeographed copy of this address bo
sent to each advisory board,
MR. CARPENTER: It will be included in the record, gentlemen, and wo expect
to mimeograph tho entiro rocord and nail a copy to every district advisory member
in the United States, so that you will get a record similar to what you got last
yoa.r, which will include all tho debates, resolutions, votes, and everything else.
Will tho chairman of the committee on rango improvements present his report?
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It'
A
m. L. L. TAYLOa. MOAB, ttUHi. After the onjr «?xatatw. » Uje cW tnat wo
have U totay, I think it vdll bo a relief to no.t of us ^esont, ^ ha o latnor
a sweet subject brou-ht up; that is, ranCe iaproycr:o-.its. It is a s ibjoc « *-\;^ -
a He subject, when you go to nBa]7.e it. For the last year ■«£ a ..alf, £ ..avo
started on this n»c inprovonent proem?; but wo toe .eal 1 ^* ^atc ™ ^
surface At lb. .tart °^^°fg^^3 ^ ?&£*%£ S^JS of So
atiOK of the fine cooperation of the SCT7 organization. It an. really boon von
ierful .
'proved by our boards. toy ooaru .ie..,ux, « -s, ----- -•-- > ^
or not, if it is a worthy project, ho can pot :«^to on . ri^it ov in
a very or/tafi need for :,ore ennps Ton take a look at the .ap, «J.-~ g1
th-t a lot of our onn)>S are croupod, n.nd you look at t.io ,.ap o. u.o
states and it looks like one or too states have a monopoly on ca,ps.
«* to soy, now, that each of th.se c,,pS that -e no. established have work
•elects that will keep the;, busy for ox* years. Eebody weal, .iwj-t . ^ - -
six voars to conplote their proton. Oar rosoiuxior. is ,9 "'="" Xte
Kid like to nention a few Uiwtratto. project .» J^*-*^? ^pro3ectS
S8°2& Put°ov:r°0l0r fil^S S"*^^"- r£3Si». -raGo oi*t
acre fte? ?er reservoir. That has been done in a little over a year.
Hero is Utah. Here is a whole paf of types of projects Szs>™ is °»^
bridce. two spans wide one 100- . =. an and one G£rt span. Hero ^
Cisco Spring ag^,^^^^. ^ brin.
Hrw, I an coins to road the resolutions and let it go at that , but out in the
lobby hero" or the corridor, there are a let of narrative reports, and t 1« ..
terested will do well to step out there and road those narrative reports.
I will road the resolutions and 1 will be ti-.ru:
.... B«r „.«!«». 0, ,™. •»* ?«?:£« X^S'lfS »*S=S
ne-
ither
nont that r.oro need exists tor inprovo,,^. «-*«.-- iT"^,: we herolDy rcco-ond
Federally ovned and operated lands. Based on thxs ^a^hle, neie „
to this assembly, that the follov/ir./: resolutions Dc adoptee.
-1. (,) Ve reconnend that all DW-Lon £ «^*^ g^
lrrly established grazing districts dxiu tiiat no \.or*. piojc.ou
such ca-ips unloss located within organized districts.
, . j.1 4 *.-Tor,n+ on# n -id perhaps noro of the
l.(B) Ynur cor^ittee is of the opinion r. at tot* ^^ theri fully oc-
existinc CCC carjps have v/or!c procrnna r^ead ,i t.u i ^f£11 w0 rocomond that
cupied for the oonlng tuelve ::.onths, at the least. ...eroiore,
- 7? -
10
that the opnps now established, which have work projects justifying their future
"to™ not disturbed by seasonal r.ierr.tion. In this connection, wo point
e"t thkt the vast mjority of Divisio, of Grazing CoWare located in areas
•-ore yearlong nor): is practicable. However, m roco.-ize tot a »Sf,^-
nay be feasible and proper to neve cnups- north in the su^or and _ south in to
winter, depending on soazonal and clinatic conditions of the venous areas Oxt.
public flteiia where r,.noO improvement is needed. Therefore wc reckon*. t.vat .
the Question of seasonal migration of canps be left to the aiscroUon of t e
Re.-ional Grazier, Division of Grasin.-, and the to&uuO. Supervisor, BCJ, Dearly
inV.ind the climatic conditions existing in the various localities.
"(C) T.'o recomnize that in oomo of the nev:l;.? oroatca ,~razinc districts there aro
very few if anv 0C0 car.** and vve ur-;c upon f.e Department of the Interior «* the
EOT organization in T7a=nin-ten the cryinr; njed for the establish -.oat of W
cams in those districts, feelir.G that the ,GCC ca,ps should be locatea ^eth-
ically so as to insure that all frazinf dis/trictcjdll receive their proportion-
ate share of funds available for ra...;o improve: ion to.
"3. (A) \!o recoa.r-.ond that the Af-vinorr Boards as a whole pass upon ^-d approve
all projects and olace then in their priority of importance, whenever to *oard
S in session and the approval of a najority of the members is ohtainablo, otnc^-
wise final approval on projects end their priority ox importance nay bo ,;i/on by
the Chairman and one other Board member who resiles in the locrlit, o, the pro
j ect . ' i
"4 Ve ore positive that the Division of C-razin-;, possibly duo to its recent
organization has not been -rented its fair proportion of EC7T camps, taking into
.cco^the^ast amount of -bread end butter; project* «?^^f *£."•
vital to a propur administration of t.io (>razi^., ro^nuicuo ux ,--« .
"*e msl, to point out that the public dona.in consists of ^l^'^ij^
as yet only 45 Division of Grazing or»i are m operation. 0 thei Gover one atal
arencies wo feel, have had the lion's share of the DOT work, as illustrate, by
£o fte^/the West Cervice has six camps to each one camp __for the g™ion
of Grasin-. TTe roconmond that each and every Advisory Board-..o;.ber as.o...e tea more
- today censktute himself a committee of one to ur.,o upon the proper authorities
that -ore Division of Grazing eamrps bo established, to the end that every .razi,,
district be Given at least one camp, and as many more as their needs ma, require.
"5. T?o recommend that the 35# of the erasing fees that are returned to thefiraz -
inG districts bo emended for ran-e improvements, principally cater develop em.,
road and trail construction, recent control, poi serous plant eradication, ^c.
other similar wit. As the needs of the several f^™?* ^a%J%f^£%Z
the Advisory Board of each district be ordered with tie authority of „pecil,.i.^
what projects shall bo approved for the expenditure of oucn fanes. ^ f
"loose resolutions were adopted this 10th day of December, 1930, by the «««*ee
on ran;e inprovenont, consisting of: VTeyne Gardner, Utah Boston 1; Edjar Bray,
Colore; J. D. flhoelor, Montana; J. L. Ripple, Kovada; V. *-*«*£> ^°f^.
Walker Durham, Hew Mexico; J. J. Bollard, Ore.-pn; Marion Lee, Arizona, L. L. T.„
lor, Utah, Ro,oio:-- 2; B. Thomas llorris, Idaho.
"Mr. Chairman, I move you the adoption of these resolutions."
till. CABPSKSBHt You have heard the moti :n. Are you ready for the question
of the adoption of the resolutions of the committee on ran~o improvements?
(Calls for question.) All those in favor of the adoption, signify by sayinc
^Opposed! ilo. The Ayes have it. Will the _ chairman of the committee on range
survoys orin^ his resolutions forward at this ti::.o.
MS. J. a. SMITH, ARI2DItt.: Your national' co;nittoo on ran ;c surveys j> eg to
report as follower The comittoo on ran-Q butted, aeotinfi poster W™J** *•
Molohon, v/cnt over to the office u.ioro t:.o plats are drav/n up an, y/nore all tio
naps concerns the ranSe surveys are nofla, «U went into do ta.l ,ath the people
flrafti»B tlte naps, relative to the procran and tha v/.-^s r>.ncl r.eans of d^^
these :,aps. It i a very Creat help to the co:,,iUoo, to have tneso naps and
-t 7fi -
pinto placed "before then in order that thoy any .find just how tho Division of
Grazing is operating in noking the range survey. Wo thon returned to our comity
too room and had a great deal of discussion over range surveys. It is ny privi-
lege to report to you that v/o cane out of that committee without a dissenting
voto. Altho there wore r.any ideas, we consummated those ideas into a resolution
which was unanimously adopted, by tho committee aiitf then turned over to tho
resolutions committee for then to draft. Xle wish to siibpit to you at this tine
tho resolution as draftod "by the resolutions committee: i
"Bo it resolved, that tho objectives, standards of work and nethods of procedure
now established "by tho porsonnol of tho Rar.go Surveys "branch of tile Division of
Grazing he approved. \
\
"That since tern permits must "be "based upon accurate data gathered "by the Range
Surveys, this work "be expedited "by an enlarged personnel,
"That the Range Survey personnel "be instructed to give first preference to tho
various kinds of work as follows:
1. ' Dependent proporty surveys in the rogions whore thoy forn tho basis
,for licenses. /
2, Actual rango surveys in regions whoro dependent proporty surveys aro
not needed.
3. Actual range surveys in regions where the depondent proporty survey
' lias hoen completed,
"That all data collected in the Range Surveys program "bo submitted to the Advisory
Boards concerned for their approval.- /
"That all Advisory'' Boards cooperate to the fullest extent with tho Range Surveys
personnol and furnish all available data covering lands within their rospoctivo
districts.."
Mr» Chairman, your committoo on range surveys submit this report and now make
the motion that tho report "be adoptod as read.
MR. 1AAHAF5HY: I would like to second that motion, and I would like to say
further: You made the statement here lay "before yesterday ab?ut tho "bird about
three blocks from tho whitohouse that could say throe words, "Give us more
appropriations." I "bolievo you can go hack and report to your superiors, or
Congress, and say that every stock man in the west is in harmony with that in
shouting, "Give us more appropriations, so we can got this survoy completed as
quickly as possible." /
/
MR. CARPEiTTSR: You have hoard tho reading of the resolution. Aro you ready
for the question? Those in favor of adopting tho resolutions submitted by tho
committee on range surveys, signify by saying Ayo. Opposoa^&Q^ *** Tho Ayos
havo it, and tho resolutions aro adoptod. 1 an going to ask tho Pirst Assistant
Secretary to take tho Chair at this tine and he will call on Judge Cox, the
Chairman of tho Legislative committee, I believe.
MR. WALTERS: Ladios and gentlemen, you can hear me without the "mike" ,
can't you, back there?
VOICES: Sure.
t,
MR. WALTERS: I never had much trouble boing heard before anybody excopt
Congress. Yesterday evening, some friends of mind prosented mo with a picturo,f
which they had clipped from some newspaper, and. asked mo whether the statement
made at tho bottom of that picture was correct. I road thru the printed matt or
above the picture and below it. Above tho picture, it say 3, "Talks on grazing".
Immediately below tho picturo, "T. A. TTaltors, hero on grazing meeting," and
right at the bottom of that, immediately below tho last statement, it reads:
"Ploads not £uilty." On a close examination, I found, however, • that these gentle-
men had been doing some tinkering with tho matter as it camo from tho press,
and thoro is a lino there indicating thoy had foldod it ovor and, I think, pasted
it on. I do not know whether thoy wore sheep men or cattlo men.
nn _
Ihat puts no in nind of that old story or. Carpenter - I think he ha > lof t
the roori TBun ho was speakine to a Group of ran^c ::.on, and Bhowinc ..is knovr-
ied~o of the rave and individuals and his lone association with then, ho said
that hf cou^d picv out the sheop P.en «* cow non by their Wf- Ho referred
to one nan over hero and said, "You are a sheepr.on. aren't you, Mr. Jones, . iua
he said, "Yes, sir," and he said, "Saith,. you are a cattle can, aren't .~T
', a d 'Yes, sir." Ho was pickir-G then out ri^.t along. Hero was a big
£ SSb-tat heea'on^a few yearsPfron Sweden, who had Just cone in fro, the
ran-e. Ho said, "Mr. Olson, you aro a sheep am, aren't you?" Ollio rose up
Lad he said, "Ho, Ay bano r.o sheep r.an; Ay bane sic!, aboot six nunts, nak no
loo!: lak hell." (Laughter.)
We aro approaching the conclusion of this ncotin,;. I an going to call on
Jud>-o Cox for his roport in a ninute, hut lest, poradventuro, no mfiut take tie
tine which I should consune, perhaps, I went to sake a f w observations. I taw,
as °ou know, boon at this noeting since its inception. I had the great ^W
ox being at- the first nceting of the hind you ever held, alnost W^ ana
ny interest In the nesting and in the non and wonon who attend those °wg^
increases with the amber of tines I attend and associate with you. If you M
S nothing else hut cone here, as you do, and asco oiate one wi t tn* oth or,
have your connittoo r.cotings and present your problem, and c.iscass thca, (U
sonetines cuss then, and went hone, you would have perfomed a groat service .or
the other fellow arid also for yourself.
We find, by associating together, that none of us are fret, fren l^^f
that the other follow, ove/on the other side of ^"^^^iC.SS
to what you have on this side, and naybo ho has a little aifloicnt pro
vou have but, by your cooperation and discussion, you illustrated tne wooicne
and Sny tine; assisted each other in solving then. You nay not bo satisfied or
contented, but you have gone a long way towards both.
<Wtoid.il,* of "satisfied and contented" rcrnnds :.e of the instance where
sonoonr.oaxiVupon>e Irishman, to distinguish between the word s "satis id ana
"contented", and ho paused for a mnuto e»d ro sal d, *ol 1, ^'l^1^1 our
f^F gtTjS ffStSnlSS'^T^^rS;* Period "when he
has^ars^uwonte^nt^e-'^s-reachoi that. stage in ^•JSJS^SS --
the nlnco to feich a Great character in ancient tines was transported Loftily
to it ' ethereal rcalns above known as Hoavon. Wo don't find that o-/. earth.
Our problens aro capable of solution today, but tcnorrou th ere ^ new °nos
born. The Department of Interior is nest ^itally interested in your^r oblo. s
Mary of us who have to do with the range hive per sonol knowledge o f it • ^ ^.ave
«VmU in tho eoBDB* wo have oaton the Bourftough with pleasure, ana the Bacon.
Sonetiies ovon^ houji it Lsn't cooked according to the nost nodern no hods, it
perfectly I can reconnend it to those who have .weak stonachs or bad diction.
Before calling upon Kr. Co., I wish to say that we ^Wj'^j *ȣ
i— ton notlii".' but tho best, nothing but a roport of tne Greatest intorest -«ani
£5 bf^on and wonen. *^™ ^£^,S SSS n^ould
T^tardy S^nTsil^in ^nUe^cs, and I don-t care to
what business they bolonG. . (Applause.) . \)
.,3 -,„ a, i-nvn ■,-robablv would repeat ;the state-
I stated to a young nan — and ..o is ..oro, ^rooaoi^ nou ^ -Meove who
neat - Sofoi-o wo l.-.nded in Salt LeJco, I said to one of our legal advi.or. .a.o ,
nS never boon west of tho Missouri Rivor ~ wo asked h in «W ^fc^|hen
on local problons that cor.o before us, arising out of *■*■*» voua2tU^laa
have arisen and will arise- I said to hin, this: ,.^ *^,^^ ^ lB a
after -ou havo attended this noetin,;;, «nd that is t..is. V6nat you my oj
nooUnG where nen expressed thennolvos as fearlessly and accurately,^ to tho
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point, and as intelligently, as you will find these men expressing thensclves .
I said to hip: "If you could get a group of rlen °f the sane number, of the
co-called industrialists of the east together, they would frill short of that
capacity to e:cpress then solves and to coopcrato, which you will find among the
ct?c: men of the west." ,
How, I think I havo talked to you long enough. I have had the -privilege of
talking all over the west and not lone ago — I will toll you another story;
we havo got tine for that, I guess — it amused no when I was talking about
the social security question, and the chairman of the occasion was a preacher
and ho took groat interest in the subject of social security and lookod upon
it partly as a religious nattor. Before ho concluded, ho took occasion to
speak at some length to the audience and disagree somewhat with my conception
of the social security act as passed by the Congross of the United States 'and
signed by the President, and ho said to his audionco with sor.io enthusiasm, quot-
ing the Scriptures: "rrhat wo nood, ladies and gentlemen, is a condition in this
country where every nan of us may rost beneath the grateful shadow of his own
vine raid fig tree, and none shall make 1:1m afraid."
It was a beautiful conception, and ho had groat applause, and ho repeated it:
"What wo need is a condition in this country whoro every man of us nay rest be-
neath the grateful shadow of his own vino and fig tree, and nono shall make him
afraid," With largor applause and greater enthusiasm on his part, ho repeated
for the third tine, and with sono mistake, perhaps, he said, MLadios and Gontle-
men, what wo nood in this country is a condition where ovory man of us nay sit
beneath tho grateful shadow of his own fig loaf and none shall make him afraid."
How, Mr. Cox, if you will cone forward, we will hear your report.
JUDGE LeHOY COX: Your national corral t too on legislation has unanimously
adopted the following resolutions, for your consideration:
K "It was unanimously resolved by this legislative committee that provision be made
so that the 50$ now going to the state to be clisposod of by tho legislature shall
be turned ovor to the grazing boaras whoro tho grazing land is located, for the
improvement and development of the ran-os; and
"It was further ro solved that we recommend tho form of tho following proposed
draft of the law, which vail carry out tho purpose of tho foregoing resolution:
"Proposed Model Law for Stat.es for Distribution of jpedoral Funds.
"Section 1. That all funds- rocoivod by tho State of , as its distri*-
butivo share of tho amounts collected by the United States government under the
provisions of tho act of Congress of June 23, 1934 (43 Stat. 1269) ' known as. the
Taylor Crazing Act, and any act amendatory thereof shall bo deposited with tho
State Troasuror. Upon receipt of said money, the State Troasurer shall distri-
bute tho sane to the several counties of the State in which such public Lands aro
located. The State Treasurer shall .ascertain from the proper United States offi-
ors having tho records of receipt fron grazing permits and lop.se and sale of pub-
lic lands the amount of receipts from such sources in this state for each year
for which money is received by tho "state, and a separate account shall bo kept of
tho sun rocoivod fron each grazing district and lease and salo of public lands,
which sun shall bo segregated by tho State Treasurer and paid to tho county in
which said grazing district or leasod public land is located; and if any such
grazing district or leased land lies in more than ono county of tho state, each/,
such county shall recoivo such proportional amount of said sum as the aroa of
such grazing district or loascd public land included within tho boundary of' sucli
county shall boar to tho total aroa of such grazing district or loaso.
"Section 2. All money received from tho lease and salo of public lands within
tho county. shall bo placed to tho credit of the genoral school fund of tho county,
"Section 3. All money rccoived from grazing fees of a grazing district regularly
established and including public lands within tho county shall bo placod to the
credit of a spocial fund to bo designated 'Tho Range Improvomont Fund of Grazing
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f
District No. .' Tho Count-- Troa surer of the .county. in which such public
lands arc located shall "bo and is hcroty constituted tho ox-officio district
troasuror of any federal grazing district located in whole or in part within such
county, and shall "bo liable upon his official "bond for tho proper caro and dis-
tribution of such moneys; and he shall collect, receive, receipt, and account
for all moneys from such source. Tho County Troasuror, as 3uch ex-officio Graz-
ing District Treasurer, shall pay out such money upon tho warrant of tho Grazing
District signed by the Chairman of tho Board of ri strict Advisors of such Grazing
District, and count or*- signed by the Vice-Chairman thereof, and the Regional
Grazier in administrative charge of said District.
"Section 4. Said money from grazing fees of Grazing Districts shall be oxpoiidod
as tho Board of District Advisors of such Grazing District may direct within said
county for range improvements and the maintenance thereof; predatory animal con-
trol ( rodent control, poisonous or obnoxious wood extermination, or for the pur-
chase or rental of facilities or lands within such comity which will "benefit such
grazing district or the part thereof within said county."
Since wo have a number of resolutions, which differ as to their intent, perhaps
it would be bettor to take each resolution up, one at a time. Mr. Secretary, and
follow members of this delegation, I move tho adoption of the first resolution.
MR. WALTDRS: You have heard tho resolution. Is there a second? Is thoro
a discussion, firsts All those in favor, signify by saying Ayo. Those opposed,
Ho. Tho Ayos have it. Tho motion prevails, (jo ahead, Mr. Cox. .
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JUDGE COX: "Resolution Ho. 2. It was unanimously resolved by this legisla-
tive committee that wo recommend to the Secretary of the Intorior that the Taylor
Grazing Act bo amended to incorporate within'its provisions the recognition of
tho Advisory Board set-up as a part of the administrative features of the Taylor
A Grazing law." I move tho 'adoption of that resolution.
MR. 17ALTDRS: Do I hear a second? (Motion seconded.) All those in favor,
say Aye. Contrary, No. The Ayos have it.. The motion prevails.
\^ JUDG3 COX: "Resolution Ho. 3. It was unanimously resolved that wo recom-
mend to tho Secretary of tho Intorior that Section 10 of tho Taylor Grazing Act
be so amended as to provide that instead of 50$ going to tho several state treas-
urers to bo expended as therein provided, that said 50$ bo added to the 25$, mak-
ing 75$ in all to bo used for tho purposes sot out in the Act, upon tho recom-
mendation of tho Advisory Board under the direction of tho Secretary of tho In-
A terior and on the recommendation of tho Advisory Board."
Just a word in explanation, of that resolution, before I move its adoption. It
was colled, to the attention of your legislative committee, that, in a numbor of
the states, legislative action hod "boon talc on in which the 50$ of tl;.e grazing
foos that was returned to the states, havo boon diverted into school funds and
into general county funis. Your committee folt that all of this^should go for
range improvement, under supervision of the Advisory Board, and the Secretary ,
and, fooling that perhaps there may be some difficulty in got ting tho law
changed in some of these statos which have already onactod laws giving tho money
to school districts or genoral funds, and those receiving the bonefits having
had a tasto of the pie might bo roluctant to give it up, that wo would rdso re-
commend, in addition to the proposed state law, uniform state law, an&dditional
change in tho basic law of tho Taylor Act, which, if accomplished, would give di-
rectly, or appropriate directly, thru .tho Socrotary and tho Advisory Boards, a
total of 75$ of tho foe to be used for range improvomont.
Mr. Chairman, with that explanation, I move tho adoption of Resolution llo, 3.
MR. Wi\LT3RS: Is thore a second to the motion? (Socondod.) Is thoro a dis-
cussion? If not, those in favor, signify by saying Aye Contrary, 1T0. Tho Ayes
have it; tho motion prevails.
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JUDGE COX: "Resolution Ho. 4: Wo commend the Secretary'- of the Inferior for
his splendid administration of the Taylor Grazing Act ana. for his selection of
/ E. R, Carpenter as Director of Grazing — " a nan who, I night state, has really
boen'tho father, in a large sense, of this particular administration of the Taylor
Grazing Act, who has fathered the idoa, the theory, of local autonony, in the
solution of grazing problems among the livestock r.en. Fron rjy observation, where
I have travolod, it is ny honest judgment that, if wc had .not had a nan of the
capabilities and the fight that Mr. Carpenter has given to us, that we would not
have had the participation in the handling of the grazing problems that we now
enjoy under the advisory board set-up, and your legislative committee, feeling
that way, na&e this conr.ondation,
c " — and we unanimously favor a four-year tern, for Mr. Carpenter and we rospoct-
«-- fully recommend that the Socretary make this rccoi-:.o:,:uation to the President."
I move the adoption of that resolution.
MR. WALTERS: You have heard the notion; is there a second. (Second.) Is
there a discussion? If not, all those in favor signify by saying Aye. Contrary,
Ho. The Ayes have it; the notion prevails uiianinously.
w JUDGE COX: "It was unanimously resolved by this legislative connittee that
we reconnend to the Secretary of the Interior that Section 17 of the Taylor
Grazing Act be attended to provide for a definite r^our-year tern for the Director
of Grazing; and
"Be it farther resolved, that section 17 be amended to provide that in making fu-
ture appointments livestock men connected with the T-ylor Grazing Act from each
public land state noninate one qualified potential director of grazing and that
J--' fron these selections the Director by appoint o-'1 , "
I night state, briefly, in explanation of that resolution, that it was the
sense of your legislative committee that, if it were possible to remove the ad-
ministration of the livestock problems to the extent that it would not be nade
too much of a political football, pad to the' c::teat that we would always be as-
sured of a western nan who is acquainted with western problems, and to the further
extent that we would always hove, as a director, a nan who is interested in the
livestock problons of the west, a nan who hao" interests under the Taylor Grazing
Act, and a nan who is interested in seeing the preroat set-up, under the Depart-
nent of the Intorior, of this particular adr.iinistrativo
system kept in force, that wo would achieve this by r.aking an anundmor.t to this
law, which would carry out this purpose. Mr. Secretar/, I novo the adoption of
that resolution.
MR. WALTERS: Is there a second?
CAPT. B. C. M0SSI.IA1T, ROSWELL, H.M.: I would like to second that notion, Mr.
Secretary.
MR. WALTERS; Is thero a discussion? If not, all in favor, signify by say-
ing Aye. Contrary, Ho. The Ayes have it. T^e notion. prevails unanimously.
JUDGE COX: Mr. Secretary, and fellow members of thi-s convention, that con-
cludes all of the resolutions that your legislative committee drew up to report
at this convention. There were some one or two direct roconnondations nado by
this legislative committee to the Department, on natters that they didn't fool
were of a legislative nature. I thank you.
MR. WALTERS: Tho Chair will now rocognize Mr. Mossnan of HGw Mexico, and
Mr. McEarlane of Utah.
CAPT. MOSGMAiT: I want to say, in opening these brief remarks —
MR. WALTERS: You better como up here, Ca.pt. Mossnan.
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CAPT. IIOSSKAIT: Thank you, sir. I have always spoken thru ay own horn.
I an a free nan. I live in Hew K©xico. I on encased in the stock business. I
aa not an advisor, and I hold no office, and I seek no office'. I heard this re-
solution. I an very glad to see it pass. I wish you could feel .about it — and
I think you d.o — as I do, that nevor in the history of our country has there
"been such a aononstr.it ion of cooperation and willingness to cooperate with the
beneficiaries under tho Taylor Act as is shown by the Secretory of the Interior,
and this noblest old Korean of thon all: Secretary Walters. It has boon a won-
derful demonstration, gentlemen, of tho freedom that is accorded a pooplo, v;ho
are trying to work out their own salvation under difficulty.
Kore wo have tho administration of 142 million acres, and the fortunes and wel-
fare of many thousands of people, and they are invested with the mechanics of
self-government themselvos. I think it wore ungrateful to ignore Secretary
Walters, SGcrctary Ickes, and that splendid body of men that have been provided
for our guidance and direction, T^oy con not be ignored. Without their assist-
ance, there would have been many stumbles in the dark, I think that resolution
expresses our appreciation of tho whole lot. ,
This is a wonderful country, tfe cow-punchers in it — wo arc just cow punchers
but we ore men, after all, and I boliove that the people are being sold on this
Taylor Act, and they are being sold core and more every day, and I think we aro
being especially soil en Mr. Carpenter and on /that oo^r of fine men that have
been provided for our guidance. Thank you.
MR. WALT3RS; Mr. McFarlane. Would you 'care to come up on the platform,
where they use the artificial horn, or your own?
MR. J. M. MacFARLAiE OF UTAH: I think I will follow "Cap" Hossman, and blow
my own horn. Mossmnn and I wore on the range, where we had to mako them hear
on the other end, before they had telephones, so we cultivated voices that car-
ried, and I hope that I can do that today.
I have a resolution here that I want to present. It was given to mo by a commit-
tee composed of tho ton Wcstorn states. This comes spontaneously. Nobody asked
for iflt. But they thought, inasmuch as Utah was host to this body, that I should
present it. So I an going to read this resolution:
"Whereas, tho Socretary of tho Interior Harold L. Ickes has soon fit to call this
tho Second Annual Conference, of the District Advisor-' Board from the ton western
states, to confer with each othoranC tho Department on the rules and regulations
governing tho public domain, thereby insuring a greater local autonomy; therefore
"Be it resolved: That we commend tho Secretory for his special interest in ad-
ministration of tho Taylor Grazing Act by sending out the First Assistant Secre-
tary, Mr. T. A. Walt or a, and wo most heartily enjoyed and approved his splendid
address given us tho first morning of the conference held in Salt Lake City and
we feel that tho Secretary could not have done anything better to cement tho good-
will of the western livestock men than to send a man who has been born .and brod
in the West here to represent him at this conference.
"Wo further commend the Socretary on the splendid choice he made in appointing
Mr« F. R. Carpenter as Director of Grazing and wo sincerely hope that Mr. Carpenr
ter call remain with us until this Administration of the Taylor Bill has been '
^thoroughly put on a firm foundation and pcrmanont permits aro issued." . • ,ft
Gentlemen, this represents the unanimous approval of tho ton western states, and
I move its adoption.
V0IC3: I second the motion.
Mil. MacFAT<LAH3: All in favor of this motion will stand, please. ***** Mr.
Secretary* -I think this is unanimous. I thank you.
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V?ICS: Will the author of the resolution just "boar with ne for a r.omont..
He says that tho scrvicos of Mr. Carpenter "bo continued for four years. Ulr/
can't we say just ""be continued." Wo don1 1 need to say for any length of tine.
Wny don't we say that tho services of Mr. Carpenter" "be continued".
MR. WALTERS: I approhond, if Mr. Carpenter continues during the application
of the Taylor Orazin^ Act, his life span will he largely in er.cess of that of
I.l c thus ol ah. H0wevor, Mr. MacEarlano would no doubt he clad to entertain any
suggestion for alteration or modification of the resolution. I will call upon
Mr. ^MacParlane, if you wish to offer an amendment or modification. I shall call
Mr. MacEarlane to the chair, "because I feel somewhat r.Ddest, ur.der the circum-
stances , flattered and yet humiliated in a way. Mr. MacFarlane , do you wish to
make a notion?
MR. MacEARLAitE: No, Mr. Chairman. T:ie motion has aarriod.
MR. WALTERS: All ritfht. Ho does not wish to. Is there anything further to
cone "before this meeting?
1AR. TERRETT: I have a brief announcement to maze. Delegates from Wyoming
and Oregon have requested a meeti3ir; to consider local associations and coopera-
tive agreements with tho Secretary. To accommodate them and any others who mi^ht
wish to attend the hearing, there will "bo a mectin-'j at 2:15 in this hotel, in
Room C-38.
MR. WALTERS: Is thore ally further "business? If not, I would just like to
say, "before we present the final motion, that there is nothing at this timo of
the year that could bo more appropriate, which is inscribed in red up hero, than
the worls: "Merry Christmas",. I don't care what yciir religious belief is or
whether you have any or not. It has cotton to be a -rcat institution, the celebra-
tion of Christmas, it is of tho heart and not tho head, and it maizes us all feel
a little more kindly, each to the other, and I wish to say to you, in conclusion
that I wish you all, and oach and every one of you and your loved ones, a most
nerry and enjoyable Christmas and a happy now year. (Applause.)
Do I hear a notion that wo adjourn?
VOICE: I nako a motion that wo adjourn.
MR. WALTERS: Is it seconded?
VOICE: Second the motion.
MR. WALTERS: Those in favor of adj-nirnin.;, signify by saying Aye. ***
Contrary, Nof *** T^e Ayes have it. The notion prevails. I thank you.
(Adjournment, at 12:30 PM, Dec. 11, 193G.) .
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