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c> 1

Evolution of a Metropolitan Skyline

A.C. Martin

Interviewed by Marlene L. Laskey

Completed under the auspices

of the

Oral History Program

University of California

Los Angeles

This manuscript is hereby made available for research
purposes only. All literary rights in the manuscript,
including the right to publication, are reserved to the
University Library of the University of California,
Los Angeles. No part of the manuscript may be quoted
for publication without the written permission of the
University Librarian of the University of California,
Los Angeles.

Partial funding for this interview was provided by
Atlantic Richfield Company, Security Pacific National Bank,
Mitsui Fudosan (USA), Incorporated, Southern California
Gas Company, and May Company.

CONTENTS

Introduction ix

Interview History xv

TAPE NUMBER: I, Side One (December 8, 1980) 1

Martin's ancestry on his mother's side--The
Borchard family ranch in Ventura County--His
parents' marr iage--His mother's brothers and
sister--His parents' first meeting.

TAPE NUMBER: I, Side Two (December 17, 1980) 17

Martin's uncle, Father Joseph Martin, arrives
in Los Angeles from Illinois — The beaux arts
style of architecture — The introduction of
steel and reinforced concrete into building
construction--The use of concrete in the
buildings of Martin's father, Albert C. Martin,
Sr.--His father's parents and siblings--His
father's architectural achievements — Los
Angeles in the early 1900s--Martin ' s own
brothers and sisters.

TAPE NUMBER: II, Side One (December 17, 1980) ..... .36

A large and convivial f amily--Modern concepts
of cultivation in Oxnard — Martin's father has
problems with epilepsy and drinking--Ef f ect on
the family.

TAPE NUMBER: III, Side One (January 7, 1981) ...... 43

Albert Martin, Sr., purchases a ranch in
Riverside — Albert Martin, Jr., and Ed Martin
develop the ranch into a citrus orchard--Plans
to develop the ranch into a series of small
ranchos — Problems with Sunkist Growers, Inc. —
Building the water company — Problems involved
in developing residential tracts--Energy
conservation and ecological concerns--History
of the Riverside area--Furnace Creek Inn in
Death Valley.

TAPE NUMBER: III, Side Two (February 4, 19B1) 62

Albert C. Martin, Sr., builds Los Angeles City
Hall--St. Vincent's Church--An organic
philosophy of design in the works of Albert
Martin, Sr. — The Albert C. Martin firm in 1920 —
The Desmond's Bui lding--The problem of giving
credit to individual architects in a large
firm.

TAPE NUMBER: IV, Side One (February 4, 1981) 82

Albert Martin, Sr., and the May Company--The
Martin family's difficulties during the
Depression--The children's educat ion--Inf luence
of Albert Martin, Sr., on his son's decision to
become an architect--Martin ' s jobs on
construction sites as a youth.

[Second Part] (March 3, 1981) ... 88

Martin enters USC--Learns the new concepts of
the Bauhaus school of architecture — Impact of
the Depression and World War II on Los Angeles
and on the architectural prof ession--Dif f icult
times for A. C. Martin and Associates--The firm
gets back on its feet during the war years--
Martin remembers his father as a man of honesty
and integr ity--E . L. Cord's exploitation of
construction workers during the Depression.

TAPE NUMBER: IV, Side Two (March 3, 1981) 102

The effect of the 1933 Long Beach earthquake on
architecture--Older architectural concern with
detailing of buildings vs. newer concerns for
environment and planning--Architectural
developments in this century and prospects for
the f uture--Var ious buildings designed by A. C.
Martin and Associates--The Department of Water
and Power Bui lding--Mart in ' s trip to Europe and
subsequent marriage to Dorothy Dolde .

[Second Part] (March 18, 1981) . .112

A. C. Martin and Associates' employment of
engineers--Mart in ' s admiration of Frank Lloyd
Wright and Willem Dudok--Pref erence for an
architecture which is richer than Rauhaus — The
classic design of the Second Church of Christ
Scient ist--The May Company Wilshire building.

TAPE NUMBER: V, Side One (March 18, 1981) 122

%he award-winning parking structure designed
for the May Company Wilshire store — Martin and
his brother John Edward become partners with
their f ather--Shopping centers designed by A.
C. Martin and Associates--Reasons for the
development of the suburban shopping center--
Superiority of the closed mall over the open
mall--Building of the two-level Eastland ^
Shopping Center--Mart in ' s decision to focus on'
commercial architecture rather than residences-
A love for sailing. \iJ

TAPE NUMBER: V, Side Two (April 8, 1981) 140

iThe decision to have Los Angeles Civic Center
fun in an east-west direct ion--The influence of
this decision on the expansion of Los Angeles —
A. C. Martin and Associates' innovations with
computer analysis of earthquake movements--
Decision to make the ARCO building into two
towers--Oecision to put the ARCO Towers' plaza
at the Flower Street level rather than Figueroa
Street--Future plans for downtown Los Angeles.

TAPE NUMBER: VI, Side One (April 22, 1981) 159

Th'e controversy over preservation of the old
Los Angeles Central Library building — Martin's
plans for the library building and alteration
of the surrounding area to create a large open
space--The North Civic Center plan--Ideas on
what could be done to improve the transpor-
tation systems of Los Angeles.

TAPE NUMBER: VI, Side Two (May 5, 1981) 181

The El Pueblo area--AGvantages of Martin's plan
for preserving the Los Angeles Central Library
building--Further solutions to transportation
problems in Los Angeles--Costs of public
transportation systems should be shared by the
entire city--The private sector's role in urban
development--Trend in the downtown area toward a
more human-scaled environment.

TAPE NUMBER: VII, Side One (May 5, 1981) 203

Optimization of space in buildings--Energy-
saving measures--Trend toward lightweight
metallic walls in bui lding--Importance of open
space in the urban landscape--The fragility of
the life-sustaining atmosphere of planet Earth--
New technological developments in space.

[Second Part] (May 27, 1981) . . . 213

Martin's position as chairman of the Los
Angeles Bicentennial Commi ttee--The composition
of the commi ttee--Financing Bicentennial
act ivit ies .

TAPE NUMBER: VII, Side Two (May 27, 1981) . . .223

Bicentennial publicity in Los Angeles--Archives
recording Bicentennial events--Fundrais ing for
the Bicentennial--Bicentennial publicat ions--
The Bicentennial history committee and the
"Spectrum" exhibi€r--Problems of government
bureaucracy and the necessity for the private
sector to provide initiative and leadership--
Martin and his brother Ed's involvement in
community affairs and city planning.

TAPE NUMBER: VIII, Side One (June 2, 1981) ...... 246

Thirty thousand trees planted in downtown Los
Angeles under the sponsorship of Los Angeles
Beaut if ul--Martin ' s scheduled reception of the
Spirit of Los Angeles Award — The development of
large open spaces in the Los Angeles landscape--
The problem of clients altering a building so
that it no longer expresses the architect's
intent ions--Mart in ' s plan for St. Basil's
Church marred by two large statues--Martin ' s
involvement with the .\merican Institute of
Architects (AIA) and the California Council of
Architects--Architects in Los Angeles in the
city's early days--The transition from beaux
arts to modern architecture--The influence of
Frank Lloyd Wright on Martin--Martin ' s role in
A. C. Martin and Associates--The role of the
director of design in the f irm--Inf luence of
Frank Lloyd Wright, Samuel Marx, and Noel Flint
on Martin.

VI 1

TAPE NTUMBER: VIII, .Side Two (June 2, 1981) 268

Past trends in architecture toward eclectic
borrowing from various styles--The present
trend toward humanism in architecture--Meed for
architects to understand the nature of
mater ials--Importance of organic structure in
creating a unified building--Herbert BaYer--The
Double Ascension fountain in the ARCO Plaza--
Alexander Calder's sculpture The Four Arches in
A. C. Martin and Associates' Security Pacific

Bank Building

[Second Part] (June 9, 1981) . . . 279

The process of obtaining commissions--The Wells
Fargo Building--Working with contractors--
Collaborating with other architectural and
engineering firms. -.--

TAPE NUMBER: IX, Side One (June 9, 1981) ....... .290

Successful collaborations--The architect/client
relat ionship--A,. C. Martin and Associates' New
York, Texas, and Orange County offices — ^David
and Christopher Martin join the partnership--
Reaction of the firm's staf f--Responsibi lit ies
of the individual members of the partnership
and the changes that will follow Martin's
retirement--The firm's financial situation and
the risks involved in practicing architecture--
A. C. Martin and Associates the oldest firm in
Los Angeles--The future development of Los
Angeles — The increasing integration of ethnic
groups in Los Angeles--Changes in Los Angeles
over the years--The use of open space in
California architecture--The need to renovate
Wilshire Boulevard.

Index o 312

VI 1 1

INTRODUCTION

Albert Carey Martin, Jr., (born Los Angeles, August 3,
1913) is a partner in A. C. Martin and Associates, one of
the most influential architectural firms in Southern
California. The A. C. Martin firm was founded in 1906 by
Martin's father, A. C. Martin, Sr., an architectural
engineer from Illinois who came to California in 1904. The
senior Martin invented and patented a technique in steel-
reinforced concrete construction which was particularly
useful in the construction of offices and commercial
structures. His most famous work is Los Angeles City Hall
(1927), designed in collaboration with John C. Austin and
John Parkinson. Other well-known buildings by A. C.
Martin, Sr., are the Ventura County Courthouse (1911), the
Million Dollar Theatre, on Broadway Street in dov/ntown Los
Angeles, in which he employed the world's first canti-
levered reinforced concrete balcony (1917), St. Vincent de
Paul's Church on Figueroa Street and Adams Boulevard
(1924), and the Atlantic Richfield Mariposa Building at
Wilshire Boulevard and Mariposa Avenue (1931). The senior
Martin had a close relationship with the May Company and
designed many of their stores. The May Company downtown

(1924) and Wilshire (1937) stores are considered classics
in the department store genre. Martin also designed the
dome for the Church of Christ Scientist at Adams and Hoover
boulevards (1917).

A. C. Martin, Jr., the subject of the following oral
history interview, studied architecture at the University
of Southern California while working summers as a
carpenter's helper on projects his father designed. He
graduated with a B.A. in 1936 and went to work in his
father's design department. Martin senior operated an
individual practice until 1945 when he invited his two
sons, A. C. Martin, Jr., and John Edward Martin, to become
partners. When A. C. Martin, Jr., became a full partner,
he assumed the title, director of design.

In the post-World War II years, Martin and Associates
expanded rapidly. The Los Angeles Times credits the firm
with the design of "more than fifty percent of all the
major buildings erected in downtown Los Angeles since World
War II." (November 25, 1979) Among the most prominent of
Martin-designed buildings downtown are the Southern
Counties Gas Company Building at Eighth and Flower streets
(1958); the Department of VJater and Power Building at First
and Hope streets, the world's first integrated modular
office building (1965); the United States Federal Office
Building at 300 North Los Angeles Street (1965); Wilshire

Metropolitan Medical Center at Wilshire Boulevard and Bixel
Street (1965); Union Bank Square on Flower between Third
and Fourth streets (1967); the Atlantic Richfield Towers on
the block bounded by Figueroa, Fifth, Flower, and Sixth
streets (1973); the Security Pacific World Headquarters at
Flower and Third streets (1978); the Wells Fargo Building
at Flower and Fifth streets (1980); and the Manufacturers'
Life Insurance Building at Fifth and Figueroa (1980).

A. C. Martin and Associates has designed commercial
structures throughout the Los Angeles metropolitan area.
The firm was a pioneer in shopping malls, beginning with
the Lakewood Shopping Center in Long Beach (19 51), the
Eastland Shopping Center in VJest Covina (1956), and V7arner
Ranch in Woodland Hills (1960). It designed the 1900
Building (1969) and the Century City Theme Buildings (1975,
in collaboration with Minoru Yamasaki) in Century City.
Other notable projects in the Los Angeles metropolitan
region include the Bethlehem Steel Building in Torrance
(1958), Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena (1965), TRW
Space Park in El Segundo and Redondo Beach (1966), the
Sears Building in Alharabra (1970), the Sunkist Building in
Sherman Oaks (1973), Cedars-Sinai Medical Center (1975),
One Town Center in Costa Mesa (1979), the Prudential
Insurance Headquarters building in Thousand Oaks (1984),
and the Thousand Oaks Public Library (1984). Martin and

Associates has continued constructing churches, and A. C.
Martin, Jr., is particularly proud of his design for St.
Basil's Church on VJilshire Boulevard near Western Avenue
(1969), which David Gebhard and Robert Winter describe as a
"forest of narrow concrete volumes [creating] an illusion
of a Medieval northern Italian town, perhaps with Sir Basil
Spence ' s Coventry Cathedral in mind." (David Gebhard and
Robert 'Winter, A Guide to Architecture in Los Angeles &
Southern California, Santa Barbara: Peregrine Smith, 1977,
p. 194; this work contains descriptions and analysis of
many of the buildings designed by Martin and Associates.)

As of 1984, A. C. Martin and Associates had a staff of
over three hundred forty architects, engineers, and support
personnel in four offices located in Los Angeles, Irvine,
Houston, and New York City. Martin and Associates remains
a f amily-owned-and-operated enterprise. The third
generation of Martins, A. C. Martin, Jr.'s son David
(currently director of design) and John Edward Martin's son
Christopher, have become full partners. Martin comments
that his role in such a large organization has been more
"to provide an analysis and critique of the design of
others ... I probably have a deeper feeling for making
judgements and appraisals and guidance of the work of
others than actually the development of my own." (pp. 263-
64) He elaborates that after stepping down as the firm's

Xll

director of design in 1974, his role has primarily been
"making judgements as to problem solving in human
relationships and client relationships and to generally
watch the movement of the firm as it handles its ever-
moving problems." (p. 263)

A. C. Martin and Associates has been a pioneer in the
use of computers to analyze earthquake movements and the
dynamic loads earthquakes impose on structures. In the
Union Bank Square Building, the firm introduced ventilated
vestibule systems into high-rise construction, which
permitted a dramatic increase in usable floor space in
office buildings. In the Wells Fargo Building, Martin and
Associates implemented new energy-saving designs through
the use of stainless steel panels and double-glazed
windows .

Martin has served as director (1950) and president
(1958) of the Southern California chapter of the American
Institute of Architects (AIA). He chaired the committee
that rewrote the parking ordinances of the city of Los
Angeles. In 1969 he was director of Los Angeles Beautiful,
which implemented a tree-planting program. In 1976 he was
elected president of the Los Angeles Chamber of Commerce.
Martin has been active in the city's historic preservation
movement and has proposed plans to revitalize the El Pueblo
district north of Civic Center as well as the Los Angeles

XI 1 1

Central Library building. In 1978, Mayor Tom Bradley
appointed Martin chairman of the Los Angeles Bicentennial
Committee. During the city's bicentennial celebrations, he
successfully located corporate underwriting for events
which traditionally would be supported by public monies.
Martin's many civic activities reflect his oft-stated
opinion that the respective roles of the private and public
sectors need to be realigned. He views the private sector
in the United States as the most vital force upholding the
interests of democracy against government bureaucracy.

The following oral history interview with A. C.
Martin, Jr., is more than a life history of one prominent
professional: it is the history of a Los Angeles firm and
of the ideas which have reshaped the face of a major
American city. In 1963, Los Angeles architect Albert Carey
Martin, Jr., predicted that "the architect of tomorrow will
be the master planner of total environments." Martin has
fulfilled his own prophecy with the many projects his firm
has done since then.

XIV

INTERVIEW HISTORY

INTERVIEWER:

Marlene L. Laskey, Interviewer, UCLA Oral History
Program. B.A., Political Science; has researched,
organized, and conducted architectural tours of Los
Angeles .

TIME AND SETTING OF INTERVIEW:

Place : Martin's office in the Union Bank Building, Los
Angeles, California.

Dates : December 8, 17, 1980; January 7, February 4, March
3, 18, April 8, 22, May 5, 27, June 2, 9, 1981.

Time of day, length of sessions, and total number of
recording hours: Interview sessions were conducted at
various times of day and were generally forty to forty-
five minutes in length. A total of approximately ten and
a half hours of conversation was recorded.

Persons present during the interview; Martin and Laskey.

CONDUCT OF THE INTERVIEW:

The interview begins with a chronological format, covering
Martin's family background and the architectural
accomplishments of his father. After Tape V, however, the
interview format becomes topical.

EDITING:

Editing of the tapes was done by Bernard Galm. The
verbatim transcript was checked against the original tape
recordings and edited for punctuation, paragraphing,
spelling, and verification of proper nouns. Words and
phrases inserted by the editor have been bracketed. The
final manuscript remains in the same order as the taped
material .

In July 1983 the edited transcript, along with a list of
queries and names requiring identification, was given to
Martin. The approved transcript was returned in December
of the same year.

The index was compiled by Cheri Derby, assistant editor,
and Teresa Barnett, editorial assistant, who also prepared

the table of contents and interview history. The
introduction was written by Richard Candida Smith,
principal editor.

SUPPORTING DOCUMENTS:

The original tapes and edited transcript of the interview
are in the university archives and are available under the
regulations governing the use of permanent, noncurrent
records of the university. Interview records and research
materials are on file in the office of the Oral History
Program.

XVI

TAPE NUMBER: I, SIDE ONE
DECEMBER 8, 19 80

LASKEY: Mr. Martin, you're one of the rare breed of people
known as a native Californian, native to the area, with
roots that go back well over a hundred years. So I thought
perhaps we could start the interview with a discussion
of those roots, perhaps beginning with your mother and your
remembrances of her and [then] moving into the family.
MARTIN: Yes, my remembrance of the Borchard history includes
stories of the trek across the plains in 1847 by my grand-
father's father, but including my grandfather as a two-
year-old child; and stories of Indian attacks were always
mentioned, and whether there were very many wagons lost is
a question. I remember something about some losses. The
Borchard family came in through one of the northern passes,
and down through the Stockton area, and eventually settled
in the Ventura County area, on the south bank of the Santa
Clara River, which is now part of Oxnard.
LASKEY: This was when, when they actually came into
Ventura County?
MARTIN: Around 1866.
LASKEY: Around 1866.

MARTIN: There were stories of the height of the mustard
plants and the existence of many snakes, and the trails
which wove through the mustard fields would be flanked by

mustard which was as high as the shoulders of a man on
horseback. The commercial center, that is the four
corners with a store on it, occurred at a place called
El Rio, which has now disappeared as a four-center inter-
section, and of course the old general store went with
it. The man that owned the general store was Simon Cohn,
a Jewish merchant who was one of the early breeds of
merchants that also settled in this area.

Stories of my mother include her beauty, and some of
them described her as the belle of the county.
LASKEY: What was your mother's name?

MARTIN: Carolyn Elizabeth. One of the stories of her
vivaciousness is the fact that she was selected as the
young girl to help drive the golden spike which completed
the railroad trackage across a new bridge spanning the
Santa Clara River flood area. So Carolyn, my mother, grew
up as a young, vivacious farm girl and sought her education
after high school at St. Mary's College, which was part
of the Sisters of [St. Joseph of] Carondelet, who now operate
the Daniel Freeman [Memiorial] Hospital.

LASKEY: And Mount St. Mary's College too, don't they?
MARTIN: Oh, yes, they have Mount St. Mary's also. But
St. Mary's College was out on--I'm not sure whether it was
Slauson [Avenue]. I suppose it's gone now.
LASKEY: So she had her education in Los Angeles.

MARTIN: She had her education, part of it — well, the
college education in Los Angeles. I don't know about her
high school education. Probably locally in the Oxnard area.
LASKEY: So your great-grandfather, when he came down into
Ventura, now there was nothing but mustard fields, is that
what he reclaimed into--?

MARTIN: Yes, the south bank of the basin of the Santa Clara
River was very rich, I guess somewhat rough in character.
And those farms along that edge of the basin, which were
alluvial in nature, became outstanding farming ground,
eventually. Principally for the raising of lima beans,
which was the basic crop in the area, and a great deal of
sugar beets, which were promoted by the American Sugar
Beet Company, which had a major refinery in Oxnard.
LASKEY: But this must have happened some time after your
family had settled there.
MARTIN: Oh, yes.

LASKEY: Do you have any idea about how your great-grand-
father went about reclaiming the land? It had been part
of a rancho, is that right?

MARTIN: I believe it was part of Rancho Colonia, but I
know nothing of Rancho Colonia. There's a Colonia school
district that did exist, and may still exist, in that area.
It was a one-room schoolhouse, which I remember very well.
LASKEY: So your grandfather, then, proceeded to grow up

in this area and expanded on what your great-grandfather

had done.

MARTIN: That's right; he had his entire growing career in

this area, because he came across the plains as an infant,

and his father took quite a few years to drift down to

Southern California and the Ventura County area. So that

meant that my grandfather, John Edward Borchard, did grow

with the land and did help develop the land as a pioneer.

LASKEY: Do you remember your grandfather at all?

MARTIN: Very well, very well.

LASKEY: What was he like?

MARTIN: He was tall and rangy, 6 '4" in height, a

quiet man, German background, a very kind man with a large

family, and [who] I v/ould say was extremely proud of the

evolution of his holdings into one of the major ranches of

the area. I believe he had some thousand acres at the time

of his death, that were passed on to his heirs, nine

children. So I remember him as being quiet and perhaps a

little gruff, but kind, probably bothered with the some

twenty-five grandchildren, who assembled often for the

holidays out on this wonderful ranch.

LASKEY: What was the ranch like?

MARTIN: The ranch was first of all dominated by a very

beautiful Victorian home, which was painted in the same colors

as the railroad stations were: a tan and ocher color. It

was elaborate with its ornate finials and decor and corbels,
just as so many colonial houses were. The house was sur-
rounded by a picket fence, which was typical of the times,
a kind of olive-shaped cap to it. The house had an addition
to it, which was a cool house that was built on the grade
or a little bit below the grade so that the soil dampness
would keep the cool house fresh, would keep the food and
the butter and so forth fresh, because they made their
own butter (which I remember very clearly) . Also, outside
of the house and to the side of the typical Victorian
garden, a beautiful mixture, conglomerate mixture of precious
flowers, outside of that was the typical washbasin, which
was really a trough with many faucets, and all [ranch] hands
that came in for food would of course do their washing away
from the house and then would come in to eat.

The farm--or the ranch, as it was called — as I knew
it, had some very inventive mechanized features, including
a very, very large diesel v;ater pump, because in those days
they were starting to pump water from perhaps a hundred feet,
which of course now is about six hundred feet.

The plan of the ranch included a forecourt that was
about a hundred and fifty feet in diameter, and in that,
and surrounding that, were a series of buildings. There was
a blacksmith's shop. There was a carpenter and toolshop
adjacent to it. Next to that was another isolated building,

which was a grain building for seed and for feed for the
animals. Then next to that there was a buggy barn, and
at that time there was a whole series of buggies of various
kinds, two-wheelers and four-wheelers and wagons and so forth.
Next to that was some kind of a small, I'd say, foreman's
house, and then continuing around this circle was the pumping
plant and the base of a water tower for storage. As it
came on around farther, there were areas dedicated to crops
for the household use, until it made a complete circle back
to the original homeplace. Back of all of this, in a
secondary row, were a series of houses for families which
worked on the farm, like three or four additional families.
And to one side there were three barns, which were large,
with their adjacent corrals, and one pigpen, with its
outside area. So the cluster of buildings in the home-
place was a fascinating cluster. Interspersed with orchards,
oranges and apples and all fruits, and perhaps dominated
by two very tall pines, which were most unusual and were
brought over from Australia, I believe. I have seen the
same pine around the country and in Hawaii, but that was
one of the things that in the very early days came to these
settlers. The homeplace was a very fascinating kind of a
development.

LASKEY: It sounds like a self-contained unit, with a separate
life of its own.

MARTIN: It was; it was a self-contained center which had
as part of its working complex all of the kinds of buildings
and equipment necessary to be uniquely separate, including
the blacksmith's shop, which was necessary for the shoeing
of horses and particularly necessary for the development
of plows and eventually the application of hardened
edges for the plows.

They also, in the days of sugar beet harvest, used to
have huge wagons drawn by a span of maybe eight large
work horses, and I remember they used to go to the field —
As a child, when I was sleeping there, I would hear them
go to the fields, maybe at four or five in the morning. As
soon as it was light they would be heading out to the fields,
A very colorful place, and unfortunately all of it is lost.
LASKEY: What happened? Did it just develop as — ?
MARTIN: None of the family acquired it to — Even though
many members of the family lived there subsequent to the
death of my grandfather — two or three members of the family
lived there--none of them ever preserved it or decided to
maintain it as a heritage home, or a farm, which would be
a most unusual thing if it was preserved today.
LASKEY: Oh, it would have been beautiful.

MARTIN: My brother and I returned some fifteen years ago to
try to find any part of the homeplace, such as a tree or
a fence, and there was not one thing we could identify.

LASKEY: What had happened? Was it still a ranch?

MARTIN: It was all subdivided into —

LASKEY: Oh, it was subdivided.

MARTIN: — into residential districts, for nice residences.

We could not find one semblance of that great ranch. That's

very interesting. So I always have been sorry that we didn't

buy it and preserve it, not as an investment but as a matter

of pride and heritage.

LASKEY: Well, it sounds--

MARTIN: Turn it into a museum. It would have been an ideal

museum of a typical ranch homeplace of the age.

LASKEY: Well, most of your uncles then became ranchers,

didn't they?

MARTIN: Yes.

LASKEY: It's interesting that it wouldn't have been

preserved just in the nature of things, since they were

living in the area.

MARTIN: Well, preservation was not as important to them

as we find it in our thinking today. To them it was an

old homeplace and better let it go into redevelopment. And

true, they were all farmers. Some of them ended up with

some related businesses, but most of them were farmers,

farming the land that they inherited, plus that which they

acquired. My mother inherited several pieces of land, which

she had to sell to bail out "the office," which was my

father's architectural office, which had such a difficult
time in the Great Depression of the thirties.
LASKEY: Well, I'm interested — You have nine aunts and
uncles. All of your uncles became ranchers or farmers;
there was one other daughter, besides your mother, who
married in the area. But your mother married outside of
the area, essentially, and an architect. Was there anything
about her that was a bit of a renegade?

MARTIN: I never visualized her as being motivated by things
that were entirely different, such as a renegade might
interpret.

LASKEY: That's a strong term.

MARTIN: Strong term. She, I believe, aspired to be some-
thing more than a farm girl, as evidenced by the fact that
her college education was in the city of Los Angeles. She
also was a good pianist and she had a good voice, and she
really enjoyed the vivacity of my father, who was a brilliant
young architect-engineer, and a person who was most respected
in the entire community of Los Angeles because of his drive
and his honesty and his loyalty to his clients. [tape
recorder turned off]

My father and mother were really very close and were
very much in love their entire life, and they were very
proud of their family of six children. I was the oldest
son, and I am certain that in their minds I was always to

be an architect, but I didn't know that. I guess subliminally
it all did happen. And, as you know, I have a son that is
a fine architect. So it's a very deep kind of a natural
understanding that exists in our family about the evolution
of planning and the requirements of people in environments,
because it is a strong background, this kind of thought
process .

But the Depression was hard on my mother and on my
father .

LASKEY: What did it do to the Borchard family? Did they
suffer, the ranch particularly suffer from it?
MARTIN: I believe that there were some hard times in the
Depression, because land values were very low; I'm certain
that the prices for crops were very competitive. There
was an influx of farmers from the Middle West who came and
became farmhands, because they were in worse condition due
to the drought and the creation of the dust bowls of the
Middle West, which are an important matter in history.
The family was very prosperous during and following the
First World War, when lima beans commanded a price of
eleven cents a pound or twelve cents a pound, which is
like twelve dollars a sack, and they were producing
that crop for perhaps two dollars or three dollars a sack.
So the Ventura County farmers were very prosperous following
World War I and during the twenties. I'm sure the Depression

of the thirties hit them just as it hit everybody else.
LASKEY: But this particular period would be the period
that you would have remembered the ranch.
MARTIN: Yes, it was very prosperous.

LASKEY: When you were out there, did you ever think in
terms of becoming a rancher or a farmer, despite what your
family may have had in mind for you?
MARTIN: No, I never had thought like that at all.
LASKEY: You didn't.

MARTIN: No. I enjoyed it because I had four first cousins,
young boys, that were real close to me; and I used to stay
with them in the summertime, all during my youth. So
there was a strong tie, and it lasted for many years,
amongst the first cousins, the boys, in my particular age
category. So I used to work there later on when I was in
high school, for my bachelor uncle that lived on the home-
place.

LASKEY: Now, this is the one who stayed and helped your
father manage the ranch? Was he one of the younger--?
MARTIN: My grandfather.
LASKEY: Your grandfather, I'm sorry.

MARTIN: I worked for Will, the oldest uncle, but others
lived on the ranch. There was Andrew Borchard, who stayed
on the ranch during World War I, and Matt Borchard went
into the service. And Matt Borchard, being the youngest,

always felt entitled, as the German tradition would have it,
to be the heir to the homeplace, that is, to continue the
management of the farm. As it happened, Andrew played
that role, and Matt never did get over it. Because he felt
it was his: he went off to war and somebody else took
his place. So that became a lifelong, unfortunate, negative
factor amongst the two younger boys.
LASKEY: What happened to Matt?

MARTIN: Matt died last year, and to his deathbed — He was
always a jolly fellow, a wonderful fellow. The pet of my
mother, by the way; he was the baby when my mother was a
young girl. And he used to stay at our house in Los Angeles
when he was going to college, St. Vincent's College. But
he never got over the fact that he was not the continuing
young son, [as] a member of a German family. That was a
German tradition that the youngest son would stay and help
with the older years and farm the land. It's kind of an
interesting point, really, because it was a negative point
in the relationship of several members of the family.
LASKEY: Well, who was it? Was it Andrew, then, who would
make the final decision to let the homestead go, or was it
the family?

MARTIN: Well, no. Andrew built his home on the homeplace,
right adjacent to the original house. And Ray, Raymond,
lived in the homeplace for many years and did farm some of

the land that was part of the original ranch. I believe

Ray farmed land which belonged to the girls, you see,

because the girls weren't there to do their own farming.

And Matt farmed for the girls also; so two of the younger

boys became the farmers that handled the estates of the

girls of the family.

LASKEY: Now, there was your mother, and then she had a

sister. And I can only find her name listed as Mrs. John

Lagomarsino, so what was her--

MARTIN: It's Ida. She's still alive.

LASKEY: Is she really? Is she living up in — ?

MARTIN: She lives in Ventura. Ida Lagomarsino. And she

has a daughter in Los Angeles and a son-in-law,

LASKEY: How about any of the other brothers or sisters?

MARTIN: Now, well, Andrew is alive; I think he's the last

survivor. Matt is dead, Ray, and Will, of course, was the

oldest, then Frank, and then Henry, Ernest. So I think

Andrew is still alive, but I'm not positive of that.

LASKEY: Did two of your uncles, Frank and Henry, marry

sisters?

MARTIN: Yes, they did.

LASKEY: The same year?

MARTIN: I have a feeling they did. I think it might have

been a double wedding, but I'm not sure. They were the

McLaughlin girls, Katie and Nellie, and that created double

cousins, and they are still around. I've seen them recently.

They're a very nice family.

LASKEY: Now were the McLaughlins, then, I take it, also

a ranching family in the area?

MARTIN: They were, yes.

LASKEY: What about your grandmother? What do you remember

about her?

MARTIN: Oh. The thing I remember the most is her dynamic

posture as a mother and a grandmother of a huge tribe and

her slightness of build — she was very thin; she was about

4 '11" tall.

LASKEY: My goodness.

MARTIN: And really loved every child that came onto the

ranch. She was a very kind person. But she was busy.

LASKEY: I bet she was.

MARTIN: She was really busy.

LASKEY: Was she a native of the area too? Do you have any

idea how your grandfather met her?

M-ARTIN: I don't know. The Kaufman family, I think, were

related to the Hartmans of Ventura, but I better be careful

because it gets pretty thin there. I don't remember. I'm

sure that the Kaufmans were active in the Ventura area.

There are streets in there that are named after the girls,

still in the downtown area. I don't really know a lot about

her family. There were cousins, and how they became cousins

I don't know, but the Pettits were related. And there
was Ayala, who was not a blood relation, but by marriage
that part of the family was early and around Oxnard. Finally
the children of John Edward Borchard and Mary Borchard
married into the Daily family, and my sister is now
married to one of them. He's passed on, but Mrs. Milton
[F.] Daily is my sister; she's from Camarillo. So that's
a whole other strain now, the Milton Daily strain. There
was other Dailys who married into the Borchards on an
entirely different relationship. Andrew's wife was a
Daily.

LASKEY: So out of this mix, your mother came down to
Los Angeles. Was it down here when she was a student that
she met your father?

MARTIN: No. She met my father through a neighbor, who was
Mr. Joe McGrath- And Joe went to college at St. Vincent's
College, where all of these young men went. And my father's
brother preceded him to Los Angeles from Illinois, who was.
Father Joe Martin, a Catholic Vincentian priest. He
encouraged my father to come here and be a part of Los
Angeles. My father had been a graduate of the University
of Illinois, had been working in the steel mills to learn
about steel, in Pittsburgh, and then came out here without
a job, except that they made him track coach of St. Vincent's
College .

LASKEY: Did he have a background for being a track coach?
MARTIN: He happened to be a low hurdler at the University
of Illinois.

LASKEY: Now, what time are we talking about?
MARTIN: [About] 19 04. So Joe McGrath knew young
Father Joe Martin, and Joe Martin brought his younger
brother, Al, to Oxnard on a visit to Joe McGrath 's, and
that's where young Al Martin met Carrie Borchard. Through
the McGrath family. I don't know very much about the
romance except that I think it went through a long period
of time, and my father was a "city feller."
LASKEY: He was.

MARTIN: He was a city feller, and he was thin, and they
called him "Bird Legs." But he was a very charming man
and the apple of my mother's eye, I presume. So in 190 7,
December 190 7, they were married, and they produced a large
family. [laughter]

TAPE NUMBER: I, SIDE TWO
DECEMBER 17, 19 80

LASKEY: All right, Mr. Martin, last time we were talking
about the Borchard family, and I thought perhaps this
time we could start talking about the Martin family.
MARTIN: The Martin family is a family that I had less
contact with than the Borchards . The Martin family first
came to Los Angeles when my uncle Joe Martin, who was a
Vincentian priest, came here, I believe in connection with
St. Vincent's College, which I believe was the predecessor
to Loyola [University], which of course is Jesuit. But
I do know that so many of the early population, or the male
segment of the families, did go to St. Vincent's College,
and I don't know much about that except it was very, very
much a part of the Catholic society.

LASKEY: I also think St. Vincent's was the first college
in Los Angeles, the first and the oldest college, as I
recall .

MARTIN: I think that that's right. I was reminded of
that the other day, on some occasion, [something] that was
sent to me by Loyola law school.

In any case, Joe Martin, Father Joe, invited my father
to come to Los Angeles. Now my father had been born, I
believe, and reared in La Salle, Illinois, and was educated
and graduated from the University of Illinois as an

architect-engineer. And in the way of background, it
might be well to remember that the University of Illinois,
as a prominent learning center near Chicago, was greatly
influenced by the World's Fair of 1893 in Chicago. History
tells us that there were some great architectural achieve-
ments in that fair and in the city of Chicago about that
time, work by architect [Henry H.] Richardson and Louis
Sullivan and later on Frank Lloyd Wright. That these
architects were reaching away from the pseudoclassic schools,
the beaux arts and the Rome school, which was being
exemplified so strongly in New York.

LASKEY: Could you identify beaux arts, that is, define it?
MARTIN: Well, the beaux arts school of design was French
and was the prominent school in the world in the teaching
of architecture in all of its most sophisticated aspects
of planning and refinement of the design as it is found in
the Renaissance and the return of classic architectural
motifs borrowed from Rome and Greece and even the introduc-
tion of the Egyptian. All of these architectural styles
were through the School of Beaux Arts, Ecole [des] Beaux-
Arts, or something like that. All of these things were
highly refined by masters of architecture in that period,
in the nineteenth century, and it is that school of design
that was prominent in the growth of New York and the great
financial institutions, because you can think of the stock

exchange and the bank being replicas of the Roman pavilions

and the classic facades. But Chicago, being in the Wild

West, broke away, and you see the works of Richardson and

Sullivan and other architects that I'm not aware of: the

real break against the revival of the classic.

LASKEY: What was it that triggered the break, was there

anything in particular?

MARTIN: I believe that the real break and the desire for

new expression was part of the introduction of the use of

steel in architecture, as exemplified beautifully in some

of the very light steel buildings of London, where the ^IfTAntSl

beautiful — What were they called, where they had the

glass — ?

LASKEY: The Crystal Palace?

MARTIN: The Crystal Palace. As exemplified by that, or

the Eiffel Tower. You see, steel, a tensile material, a

material that could work in tension, was being introduced

to architecture, and that brought new dimensions in the

construction of office buildings, where actually we had

cast-iron fronts, in Chicago particularly, and cast-iron

columns with ornamental cast column caps. Those movements

were part of the transition. Not necessarily a revolution

but a transition into new thinking, and as the buildings

feeling, more than the classics of Rome, those buildings

started finally to evolve into a freedom in design.

And at the time of the World's Fair in 1893, according
to [Sigfried] Giedion, the western builders introduced
something called the balloon frame, which was a system of
construction not used in the West, but in the Midwest,
wherein the sticks of wood, like the two-by-fours, extended
from the foundation to the top of the building, instead
of being cut off at the second floor, to eliminate shrinkage,
And this was a new kind of a frame. Those frames were,
again, an expression of the craftsmen of the Midwest, who
set the pace for even the California cottages and the
[Charles] Greene and [Henry] Greene houses of the West and
[of] Los Angeles. All of this I speak of because that's
part of the University of Illinois,

Another part, and the most important part, quoting
again from my brief knowledge of history, was the fact
that there were professors at the University of Illinois
who were working in the field of reinforced concrete design,
which was advanced by great architects of France, who were
doing bridges in reinforced concrete, and as I recall,
[Robert] Maillart, an architect and engineer in France,
was working in reinforced concrete design. This is the
combination of the cementitious materials with the new steel
tensile materials, and that's what reinforced concrete is.
The steel takes the tension, and the concrete takes the

the compression. That was being advanced, and one of
Dad's professors was the man who wrote the book — and I'm
sorry I can't remember his name — in concrete design. So
my father came from a center of learning that was really
on the front, the leading edge, of experimentation in new
systems of construction, and that was reflected in my
father's work. My father invented many systems of con-
struction^ One of them is standing on the corner of
Eighth and Hill [streets] , as part of the May Company
downtown today .

But to get back into history, my father graduated
from the University of Illinois, was acclaimed by his
professors as one of the most brilliant persons ever to
graduate from the university. He went to Pittsburgh to
work in the steel mills to refine his understanding of
steel, which he did; he worked for Jones and Laughlin Steel
Company. And in 1904 he was invited to come West by his
brother, Father Joe Martin. He came West without a job.
He happened to be a low hurdler on the University of
Illinois 's track team, and he became the track coach at
St. Vincent's College, after work. He also came West and
became a laborer on a reinforced concrete gang, on the
Pacific Electric Building at Sixth and Main [streets],
which is still standing.
LASKEY: That's a beautiful building.

MARTIN: Yes. He worked a short time, I'm told, before he
was made the foreman, because he understood concrete like
no one else in the construction industry here. A reflec-
tion of his higher education at the university.
LASKEY : In 1904, reinforced concrete would have been very
new.

MARTIN: Very new, and just how it was applied in this
building I don't know. Probably in some of the floors,
because I think it's a brick building. He was discovered
by Carl Leonhardt, who was one of the leading contractors
in the city of Los Angeles, a name long forgotten, but you
may note his name, sometimes engraved in some of the paving
materials around Los Angeles. Carl Leonhardt introduced him
to some of the Hellman family, who were bankers, and he later
built one of the Hellman buildings, as an architect.
LASKEY: There was Isaias and there was Herman Hellman, and
they have banks almost across the street from each other.
MARTIN: Right. And Dad did one of those, and I forget which
one at this moment. The I. W. Hellman Building and the H.
W. Hellman [Building], I think it was. In any case, he was
invited to become an engineer by an architect by the name of
[Alfred F.] Rosenheim, who was commissioned to design the
Hamburger Building, which is today the May Company downtown.
Dad worked with him, and as it happened, this Mr. Rosenheim
got into some trouble in his business arrangements, and he

was dismissed from the project. Dad was hired to finish out
the project. This was in approximately 1907, because at that
time he married Carolyn Borchard.

LAS KEY : You had mentioned earlier that he developed a
process while building the Hamburger Building. What was that?
MARTIN: This was a system of reinforced concrete which con-
sisted of building a skeleton frame for the pilings and
beams out of reinforcing steel, which was strong enough,
by its very structural design, to suspend the forms for the
pouring of concrete. In effect, he built a steel frame of the
lattice-like members of reinforcing, hung the forms on them,
and then poured the concrete around the fireproof ing, and the
reinforced concrete--! mean the concrete itself — which made a
composite design, a composite type of reinforced concrete,
which is the substance of the nature of the system. That
allowed one to continually build out of reinforcing steel
and bring on the concrete later, and this is what is done
today in steel frame. So it was something like that. I
don't have, I'm sorry to say, any of the detail, unless
we could find it in our archives, of the nature of that
system. It may be someplace around. But that was it.

He also was working in thin-shell concrete dome design,
and sometime later, a few years later, he designed the dome
of the Christian Science church that stands on Adams
[Boulevard] . And they tell me that it was at that time the

largest thin-shelled dome that had been designed of reinforced
concrete .

And as he went through life he constantly worked on
imaginative engineering invention. It showed up well in the
construction of [Sid] Grauman's Million Dollar Theatre at
Third and Broadway. The occasion was the result of the
failure to receive structural steel from the mills at the
time of World War I and the requirement that they had to do
something, like go to reinforced concrete, which he did, for
the cantilevered balcony of that building. Which is truly
an historic event in structure. But that breaks a little bit
away, again, from the account, the history of the Martin
family.

LAS KEY : Just to go back a bit, did you ever meet your grand-
parents, or do you know anything about them as far as the
Martins?

MARTIN: Well, I certainly did. We used to go to their house
on Sundays very often.
LASKEY : They moved out here?

MARTIN: The grandparents, John Martin and Mary, moved here,
established residence on Fourth Avenue, probably south,
between Washington and Adams [boulevards]. And the rest of
the family came West.
LASKEY: Well, now, who came first?
MARTIN: Joe Martin.

LASKEY : Joe came first. Then your father.
MARTIN: Then Dad. And then I am not certain. There was
an older brother, Frank; there was a younger brother,
Emmett, who was an architect; then there were the daughters,
there are Mary, Stella, Virginia, and Mrs. Ganahl — my mind
fails me at the moment — [Margaret]. So there was, I guess,
four girls and four boys.

LASKEY: So it too was a large family, like the Borchards.
MARTIN: It was a large family, yes. And they all lived.
They all moved here eventually. The girls probably came with
their parents.

LASKEY: What did your grandfather do out here? Was he--?
MARTIN: I don't think he was employed. I think he came in
the later years of his life, and I don't know what his source
of income was. When he lived in La Salle, Illinois, he was
in the hardware store business, which meant they were also
the undertakers, because caskets were sold in hardware
stores. My father used to drive the hearse, with its big
black horses; and that was one of the things that he spoke
of when I was young. That was the nature of their business,
and they were very active in La Salle, Illinois.
LASKEY: How did your father come to be interested in
engineering and architecture? Did he ever tell you about that?
MARTIN: No, I think that he always had this interest in
invention, and he was a very brilliant person. And there

was just no question that he would be headed for the

university because of his high IQ. And all through his

life that was proven; in his most productive years he was very

inventive, very energetic.

LASKEY : Now he also, I think in the early years, did

things in Oxnard and Ventura.

MARTIN: Yes. Well, his marriage to Carolyn Borchard gave

him an introduction, first of all, to the design of

residences, and he designed residences for some of the

early families of Ventura and Oxnard. The Henry Borchard

residence was an outstanding residence. The Tom Gill residence

was an important one. He also designed the Bank of A. Levy

in Oxnard and the Chapel [of St. iMary Magdalene] for Adolph ■

Camarillo in Camarillo. And then, most importantly, the

Ventura County courthouse, which today is an historical

monument and is the city hall of Ventura today.

LASKEY: When did he do that? Do you know when the city

hall was built?

MARTIN: I would say that that was, I believe, in 1913 or

' 14.

LASKEY: When did he decide to go into business for himself?

MARTIN: When he was commissioned to become the architect

to complete the Hamburger store. He was then recognized as

being very capable, and he was launched on his own by that

project. And in 1907 he married Carolyn Borchard; so he went

into business in 1906.

LASKEY: From the beginning he must have been successful,
MARTIN: Yes, he was. He was the favorite of the Jewish
community and the favorite of the Catholic community, which
is rather interesting.
LASKEY: How did he manage that?

MARTIN: Well, I think it was basically a matter of trust.
The Jewish community, who were merchants and bankers,
developed a high degree of trust with A. C. And the Catholic
diocese in those days found the same thing: that he was the
most capable. And he did a great many schools and churches
for what is today the archdiocese. An endless list, you
know, like Loyola High School, St. Vincent's Church;
hospitals, like Queen of Angels Hospital, or many others,
St. John's Hospital in Oxnard, Ventura County Hospital.
LASKEY: Did he ever talk about what Los Angeles, the city
itself, was like in those early years, say from 1907 to 1910?
What kind of a city was it?

MARTIN: Well, I don't remember direct conversations, but I
have impressions. My father, who was prominent as a young
architect, strove to become socially recognized in the
establishment of the city of Los Angeles, which I believe
was pretty sophisticated and an exclusive group of early
settlers who were quite wealthy. He was really a young man
that earned all of his way and was very proud of his family.

and he moved his homeplace to Seventh and Catalina [streets],
which was right across the street from the Newmarks and the
Hellmans and the Tatums, Donn Tatum's family--all those
early families. And my father really became a part of that,
to some extent. He was ambitious, and underneath it all
he had a strong desire to be recognized for his ability,
which he certainly had. So his life was influenced greatly
by his works in helping to build the city, his association
with prominent bankers or business people. His initiative
brought him far into the recognition as being a substantial
citizen and part of the establishment, and there certainly
was an establishment.

LAS KEY : He had some strong competition, too, I would think,
at that time, with the Parkinsons and Morgan and Walls.
MARTIN: The Parkinsons, right. And those firms were
really established earlier than he was; like John Parkinson
was the dean, without a question, and Morgan, Walls, and
Clements finally, and Myron Hunt, and some of the early
architects were here before Dad was here. And they really
were more prominent in the design of office buildings than
A. C. was. He was the newcomer. In some ways they had to
recognize him because of his attainments, and he was an
independent person, too. Very proud to be independent.
LASKEY : This was in his nature, to be an independent thinker?
MARTIN: Yes, I would say so. The nature of the city, as

I recall it, was to a great extent, I think, very clean
and very nice, from a physical point of view. And Wilshire
Boulevard, in the vicinity of Vermont [Avenue] , was the
center of the fine residences. At the corner of Vermont
and Wilshire [Boulevard] was the beautiful residence of
the person who's given the museum and so forth to USC
[University of Southern California], Hancock, [G. ] Allan
Hancock residence was on the corner. The [Oscar] Lawler
[Jr.] residence was in the vicinity of Vermont and New
Hampshire [avenues], on Wilshire. Many of those residences
you can see in Hancock Park today, because they were all moved
out. In those days they used to move them out.
LASKEY: You mean they were physically moved into Hancock
Park?

MARTIN: Physically moved, yes, right. And you can find
them there today. It might be hard to recognize some of
them now. But I recall the city as being really quite clean,
people interested in tree planting, beautiful boulevards.
LASKEY: Now, when were you born?
MARTIN: I was born in 1913.
LASKEY: In 1913, and where?

MARTIN: My home — Well, I was born in St. Vincent's
Hospital, which was on the corner of Sunset [Boulevard]
and Beaudry [Avenue], on the hill, and it was later moved
to where it is today. My parents' residence was at Seventh

and Catalina, which was a home located immediately adjacent
to the Windsor Hotel, which is still there, and the Windsor
Restaurant is there. I often go there today to talk with
Mr. [Ben] Dimsdale, who bought my father's property,
because we are friends, and we talk about the old times.
So that is the last bit of a tie, because you can't find--
The house is gone. The garage is gone too, I believe, now.
LASKEY : That would be about where the Ambassador [Hotel] is.
MARTIN: We were there before the Ambassador and before
the Windsor Hotel. As a matter of fact, where the Windsor
Hotel stands today was the original site for St. Basil's
Church, which my father designed. They built the original
St. Basil's Church, which was an English half-timbered
church, and as the saying goes, the father pastor couldn't
stand the noise of the Martin kids, who were right next door.
Besides, my father wouldn't sell him the house to be the
parish house, so they moved the church. And my father moved
it for him, out to Wilshire and Harvard [boulevards], and
later on that same church burned down. And that church was
expanded, which I had something to do with. Then finally
we built the new St. Basil's Church, and the old one burnt
down the day we moved in, almost. So that little half-
timbered church had a wonderful history, but a little rough.
It was the parish church for Monsignor Father [Edward] Kirk,
who was a very much of a loved priest and had a great

devotion to the Virgin Mary. But that's-- Those are little
remembrances.

You asked about the nature of the city, and I think
the most vivid thing in my mind is the importance of
streetcars and the whole system of transportation, because
when we were children, in the early twenties and late teens,
we went to schools that were along the Eighth Street car
line, which became Eighth and Ninth. I first of all
went to kindergarten at Hoover Street School, and then
went to Cathedral Chapel, which later became Immaculate
Conception Parish, which my father had designed. We would
take the N car, a nickel a ride, and those streetcars did
a magnificent job, of course. I remember the demise very
clearly. The demise of the streetcars was because the
automobile was coming on the scene, and the conflict between
the pedestrian coming from the curb to the streetcar and
the automobile was the worst kind of a conflict. And the
automobile--every thing finally plugged up. Downtown, you
couldn't move through downtown, and they therefore abandoned
the streetcars. I remember that very clearly. I used to
be a paperboy selling papers at Eighth and Vermont; I
remember that very clearly.
LASKEY: Now, these were the "red cars"?

MARTIN: No, these were the "yellow cars," streetcars. The
red cars were a different line. LA Railway was the yellow
cars, and the red cars were Pacific Electric [Railway],

which was [Henry E.] Huntington.

But the city was a clean city, and the whole nature of
Los Angeles, I think, was very progressive, really a very
industrious kind of people, and to some extent agricultural,
beause of the orange groves, which were so important, on
the east side, around Pomona and Whittier and so forth.
LASKEY: Well, if you lived at Seventh and Catalina, was
that pretty much the outskirts of the city at that time?
MARTIN: It was close; it was before the Ambassador Hotel
was there, and that site of the Ambassador Hotel was an
open field. The west edge of that site was the swamp, which
was our playground, but which we had a lot to do with later
in life. That is now a major storm drain that comes down
Normandie [Avenue] and runs south through that whole
district. It's all underground now, but in those days it
was an open swamp, on the west side of that site. That
swamp came all the way from Bimini Baths, which was north
on Vermont, adjacent to Virgil [Avenue].
LASKEY: What were the Bimini Baths?

MARTIN: Bimini Baths was probably the most exciting and
popular cluster of swimming pools for the public that you
can ever imagine. There were two indoor pools and one
outdoor pool. They were heated pools, and all of the populace
in the area used to go there and learn to swim, or swim, and
it was the center of that whole idea of recreation. It

was adjacent to the swamp, and the swamp came south to
Fifth Street and turned west over to Normandie and Vermont,
and then south on Normandie, running right through the
Tishman project and the west side of the Ambassador. I
remember as a boy very clearly that that swamp, which had
oil wells pumping adjacent to it, caught on fire because
of the oil, and there was a three-block fire, running from
Vermont to Kenmore [avenues], all ablaze at one time. The
cattails were like wicks full of oil, you know, and it was
a huge fire. But that was one of the things I'll never
forget. That must have been about 1920.

I probably should get back to the history of the Martin
family.

LASKEY: It's all Martin.

MARTIN: As I said, the city was a very beautiful city,
in my estimation. It was clean; the houses were compara-
tively new. John Martin and Mary Martin lived on Fourth
Avenue, as I described. Virginia McNamee , whose family is
active in the city today, was one of the daughters. Margaret
Ganahl was one I couldn't think of, lived on St. Andrew's
[Place], and C. C. Ganahl was in the lumber business, a
very prominent lumberyard [Ganahl Lumber Company] . Frank
Martin was a technician that worked in the testing of
materials; Smith-Emery [Company], I believe, was his
employer. Emmett, the young architect, was educated by

my father, my father supported him, and he came into the
office, but there became a conflict. Emmett then went
into business on his own and did some magnificient churches,
including St. Brendan's on Third Street, west of Western
[Avenue], and probably one of the finest churches in the
city. Father Joe Martin was drafted into the service in
World War I. He was inventive and invented an early version
of the tank, which I remember he modeled up and showed us
as we were children, how this tank worked, a tank with
the continuous tracks. He was interested in that; I don't
think he had patents, but he was always talking about it.

Family today: there are very few left except Virginia
McNamee ' s family. John McNamee is in this city. I believe
he's a banker; I'm quite sure he is. And the others, I
haven't seen them for a long time. So that's about my
remembrance of the Martin side. Not very many children
left.

LASKEY: What about your own family? Your brothers and sisters,
and your growing up, so we can--

MARTIN: Our family is — everyone is still alive and doing
well. I have four sisters and my brother, Ed. Starting
with Ed, he has five children, as my wife and I do, three
boys and two girls, and we're partners, and of course that's
very current. I have a sister, Carolyn, who is Mrs. Joe
Novak, living in Pittsburgh, and Joe Novak is a very

prominent opthamologis t in Pittsburgh. They have two
adopted children. Then my sister Margaret, who is Mrs.
Milton Dailey (he is deceased) , lives in Camarillo, part
of Ventura County, and is extremely active in the area, as
is her offspring. She has, I think [pause] four children.
I'd better not get into it--I'm embarrassed. And Evelyn
is the oldest sister; she is Mrs. Frank Purcell, lives in
Palm Springs. Frank Purcell, now deceased, was a very
active and prominent dentist in the Palm Springs area.
Lucille is living in Westlake; she is divorced, has been
for many years, lives alone now, and is very active with
her hobby of training horses. She loves to help train
horses, and she does that as a hobby. So that is a quick
rundown on our own family.

LASKEY: To go back, there's one thing I should ask you.
What does the C stand for?
MARTIN: The C is Carey; it was my grandmother's maiden name.

TAPE NUMBER: II, SIDE ONE
DECEMBER 17, 1980

LASKEY : Mr. Martin, you were telling me about your

father's name.

MARTIN: The name Carey, which is my father's middle name

and mine, was my grandmother's maiden name. Beyond that

I know nothing of the Carey family, but they were from the

Middle West, probably from the vicinity of La Salle. The

name has been carried down by myself as junior and my oldest

son, Albert Carey Martin, III.

LASKEY: It sounds Irish.

MARTIN: It is. Both sides of the Martin family are Irish,

and both sides of the Borchard family are German. So we had

the Borchards , which included tlie Kaufmans, Grandmother

Borchard was a Kaufman. And my grandfather Martin v/as Irish

and so was his wife, Mary Carey. So it is a kind of a distinct

mix of German and Irish.

LASKEY: At any time when you were young, were the Borchards

and the Martins ever together?

MARTIN: Yes, there were several occasions where they paid

somewhat of a nice courtesy visit, where members of the

Martin family would go to Oxnard. As a matter of fact,

some of the Martin girls became very good friends of some

of the Borchard family and some of the people in Oxnard;

so there were ties, friendship ties, between the Martins and

the Borchards, and between the Martins and some of the
other Oxnard people. It was a very nice kind of a relation-
ship .

LASKEY: Did anybody ever take a head count?
MARTIN: Well, yes, quite often. Not when the Martin
tribe, the family, and the Borchard clan got together.
But on the Borchard side I believe I had something like
twenty-five first cousins, and on the Martin side I believe
I had something like fifteen first cousins. And of course
later on the families developed into a big group.
LASKEY: Do you have any feelings about growing up in a big
family?

MARTIN: Well, my feelings were all very pleasant. My
remembrances of my immediate family, brothers and sisters,
were always very pleasant. And with r:\y first cousins it was
the same way, in all cases, I would say. I was not very
close to my Martin first cousins, but I was very close to
the Borchard side, first cousins.
LASKEY: Were they very supportive of you?
MARTIN: What do you mean?

LASKEY: As a family unit, did you support each other in the
sense of approving, you know, encouraging?

MARTIN: I would really say no. Not in a negative sense.
Oxnard was a long way from Los Angeles. The Oxnard side
of the familv were oracticallv all farmers. The farmers

were engaged in their thing, which was quite different than
the lifestyle of the city people. And there was a distinct
difference between the country people and the city people,
one which probably would be enhanced by the fact that the
country people had to come to the city for their education —
high school and college, high school to a lesser amount.
The city people were always doing things which were a little
more related to the latest advancement in automobiles, in
communications. In fact there was, I believe, a certain
subliminal jealousy between the country people and the city
people. Now, the people of Oxnard really advanced the state
of agriculture greatly in their very modern concepts of
cultivation and drainage of the land and such things, the
development of water. And they were on the frontier.
LASKEY: Specifically, what did they do?

MARTIN: Well, I believe the development of the drainage
ditch system in the Oxnard plain area was the thing that made
that into the very valuable agricultural plain that it is,
because formerly it was an alkali deposit, which would even
be shown as a crust on the surface of the land and would,
of course, be detrimental to any crops. That drainage system
was initiated by Senator [Thomas R. ] Bard of Hueneme--! think
I mentioned that before--and my grandfather was one of the
farmers who was participating in the district and undoubtedly
paying taxes to pay for the bonds and things like that. But

there was a feeling at that time between these two segments
of society, which of course today is almost washed away,
because those people are as much urban today as anybody.
So I guess that may be a response to your question.
LASKEY: How about your own family, your immediate family,
growing up and your brothers and sisters?

MARTIN: We had — I think the most important event in my
family was that my father really was ill. He was subjected
to-- What is the disease where you pass out?
LASKEY: Epilipsy?

MARTIN: Epilepsy. I think the stongest influence on the
children was the fear of his death, all through our lives.
He used to collapse and fall on the floor, and you would
think he was dying right there. And I think I lived perhaps
my whole life in fear of his death. He lived to be eighty-
one, [laughter]

Then later on ray father, after the Depression, had some
problem with drinking, and that became a very negative thing
in his later life. His companionship with my mother in
later life was really pretty serious. When I came into the
office after I graduated in 1936 and in early 1937, things
were in a very severe state of affairs. That was the
end of the Depression, which in a way just wiped my father
out, and between his epilepsy and drinking, it created a very
difficult thing. He was still respected, but he was losing

ground very rapidly and his professional posture. He had
some good clients, and he did a good job, a terrific job;
especially Tom [Thomas] May and the old Ducommun family and
some of the Union Hardware people, the McLaughlins, were very
loyal to him, and he did a great job. When I came on the
scene, the youth started to bring a certain element of
reliability, and he had some employees--Tom [Thomas]
Gilbert, Joe Longueville, and Norman Patten — that were very
loyal, and they kept the office going really.

Then as the war came on, in 1942, the architects
were in bad shape, because in the civil engineers' manual,
or the army manual, there's only the word engineer , not
architect. Architects were camouflage people. And that's
the way it was. When they started building buildings, like
temporary hospitals or aircraft manufacturing, they
started to bring the architects back in. This was later on,
two or three years after we were in the war. That's when
we got started again as a firm. We were very low. We
weren't doing schools. (My dad did a beautiful job in 1937
on Lincoln High School; I think it is one of the finest
schools that he ever did.)

But in any case, this period of my father's was turbulent,
and it became turbulent in the family too. My mother was,
in our minds, a saint to be able to withstand it. She was
a very strong woman, and she was very loyal to my father.

but it was not easy. So you asked about the relationship
between the children and my parents: it always included
the element of fear of death of my father, of protecting
him against his habits of drinking, and [of] trying to do
the most with a very difficult situation. So they were very
trying years, as far as Mother was concerned. One doesn't
like to recall those things, but we're talking about the
truth and history, and it was very bad. My father, as he
got older, even though his reaction to his epilepsy was
improved because of medicine — And he was an early trial case
I remember that, the doctors were searching, searching, and
searching for something to hold it back. Now between
that and — I lost my train of thought a little bit.
LASKEY : Your father's struggle and your relationship to that
struggle .

MARTIN: Well, the struggle, and then with all of this,
and the bringing on the family-- We were all educated at
use, and there was no money to educate us. We all worked
to help get through. The Depression destroyed the assets
of the family completely, with the exception of a few pieces
of property-- the homeplace and the Riverside ranch, which
we still own. (Ed and I own it now, and it was one of my
father's very interesting ventures, almost a story unto
itself.) But the feeling between the girls and the boys
today I would say is excellent, considering all the years

that have passed, considering opportunities for disagree-
ment; we really don't have any strong disagreement between
members of the family today. And everybody's alive, which
is unusual.

TAPE NUMBER: III, SIDE ONE
JANUARY 7, 19 81

LASKEY: iMr . Martin, you made some references to the Riverside
ranch. I thought perhaps you could tell us what that is.
MARTIN: My father came from a small town in Illinois. He
landed in Los Angeles and became a very well accepted architect.
He married the daughter of a farmer who was most successful
in Oxnard. I believe subliminally he always wanted to have
a ranch of his own, which one can probably understand as a
desire on the part of a small- town midwestern youth. The
Riverside area was an area that had a great many prominent
settlers at the turn of the century, many English families,
and today if you go through the area along the Riverside
Freeway, from Newport to Riverside, you find an area which is
called Victoria Avenue, which was the reference to the English
backgrounds of so many people. These people developed wonderful
orange orchards and avenues lined with palm trees, and today
it's one of the prettiest areas in Southern California. This
is in the vicinity of Van Buren [Boulevard], a cross-street to
the Riverside Freeway.

Somehow, through some of my father's friends, generally of
pioneering interest, he discovered a parcel of land in the
back country from this Riverside area, in the Gavilan Hills.
And sometime, perhaps about 1916, he purchased around 1,500
acres of land, some of it suitable for agriculture and some

of it, because of the rock coverage and lack of water, was
suitable for nothing more than "rocks and rattlesnakes."
That became, in the minds of the family members of the family,
the Riverside ranch. We had very little to do with the ranch
because it was far away. It was undeveloped, and not until I
became interested in it, just because I wanted to hunt rabbits
and things like that, did we ever as a family participate in
the ranch. However, about 1950, I became more interested ■
and suggested to Dad that we do something with it and that
I would like to help.

Perhaps closer to 1960, I with a neighbor, Mr. Don McMillan,
proceeded to develop water for the area. Since the large ditch
feeding the Lake Mathews water basin or Lake Mathews water
storage area, the ditch which came from the Colorado River,
was about two miles from the ranch, we proceeded to develop
a private water company. We put in pumping stations and
pumped water up the hill, a lift of about 900 feet, into
reservoirs that we constructed near the ranch. So in this way
we opened up the country for the development of citrus. My
companion Don McMillan was in the citrus business, and he took
the initiative in getting the lines laid.

This led to an agreement between my brother Ed and myself
and my father to proceed with the planting of citrus groves.
Eventually we planted and have today 480 acres of citrus,
equally divided between Valencias and navels. Our philosophy

was that the only way we could keep such a piece of land

through time would be to improve it and get some kind of an

income flow that would preserve it for future development.

My father died in 1962, I guess —

LASKEY: In 1959. '-"

MARTIN: [in] 1959, and the ranch was willed to the

girls. We developed a purchase agreement with

them and bought it from them and proceeded with our orange

development enterprise. As you look back through time,

because of the high altitude of 2,000 feet and occasional freezes,

it has been a very unprofitable venture, with the exception,

and perhaps it's a rationalization, that we still have the land,

and it is in the process of becoming subdividable into

residential tracts. There are 1,460 acres, and perhaps 1,000

of them are usable for high-quality residential. I've spent

the last five years in the process of planning and developing

the whole area, with neighbors, and creating the laws which

will promote the development of streets and school districts

and water supply, gas, and all the utilities. So I've been

personally very involved in the formation of the property

owners' associations and the development of the infrastructure

for future development.

At this moment, after all these years, Ed and I have realized
that the land is getting valuable, perhaps worth $7 or
$8 million now, and we better get rid of it. So several years

ago, we started the process of giving it to our children and
our grandchildren, which is now accomplished; we have given
maybe 400 acres of it to some thirty heirs, in a partnership
which we control for management purposes. Just what the future
brings I don't know, but I'm in the process of actively
planning the long-range future of the area, and our land
particularly, at this moment. It's a great piece of land and
has to be handled very carefully. It's never been profitable;
as a matter of fact it's been a headache, but does have
tremendous financial potential.

LASKEY : Would you see it like another Westwood or Westlake
Village, that kind of development?

MARTIN: No, it's really suburban, it's way out in the country.
It's beautiful country. It is in the center of population that
is less affluent than the Westside of Los Angeles, by
considerable. However, there is a certain element of our
society that are interested in ranchos , small ranches, that
are interested in equestrian activities and just getting into
the smog-free area. And we visualize now homes that would sell
in the vicinity of several hundred thousand dollars.
LASKEY: But they would be like small ranches.
MARTIN: Yes.

LASKEY: Rather than a tract kind of a development.
MARTIN: Yes. The zoning is such that it discourages any
small-sized lots. The fact is you can't do it under the zoning.

We are the ones that have been working with the pattern of
zoning, and the consensus of all the owners in the area is that
they do not want it to get down to a half-an-acre lot or
anything like that. So that's satisfactory with us, and
therefore our plans are made accordingly. But our plans will
include some high-quality features just because of the pride
that is existing in seeing this ranch of "rocks and rattle-
snakes" evolve into a beautiful residential area. That's
kind of a summary of the history and the existing status of
the ranch. I can't go much further with projections. I know
it's long-range very valuable, I know it's going to take a
great deal of effort to bring it through its evolution,
which is a pleasure, as far as I'm concerned.
LASKEY: Is it still being farmed?
MARTIN. Yes.

LASKEY: It still has the orchards on it.

MARTIN: Yes. Our part of Corona-College Heights [Orange and
Lemon Association] packinghouse, which we are part owners of.
We are partially Sunkist [Growers, Inc.] label for marketing,
which we just moved out from because of some deficiencies and
some disorganization, and we have helped through our influence
to bring in another marketing company called Sun World, just
because Sunkist has, in my mind, failed us and cost us a lot
of money.
LASKEY: In what way?

MARTIN: Well, internally the Sunkist organization has been

weakened due to internal politics, I believe, and a change in

the ownership composition of the board of directors from a

farm-owning director to a commercial type of director,

meaning the commercial interests have been moving into the

farming business, and that creates a great deal more attention

to the marketing process, in the Asian countries especially.

So Sunkist has been marketing as a cooperative type of organization

with an agreement that the marketing will be controlled by

Sunkist, in the Asian countries particularly, and that the

procedure would include a single source of marketing. However,

members of Sunkist organization have been marketing on the

side, to the detriment of the loyal members of Sunkist, and the

board of directors of Sunkist hasn't stopped the policy. And

so we gave them the word, we just moved our whole packing

operation out from under the control of Sunkist. It's a

movement that is forthcoming, I believe, in many cooperatives.

LASKEY: Is Sun World a cooperative still?

MARTIN: Yes. They have a very strong marketing organization.

They market vegetables also. United Fruit [Company], I believe,

and they have, for example, a label for bananas called Chiquita

banana, which in Europe is a very big label.

LASKEY: It is here too; I think it's probably the one

identifiable label.

MARTIN: So it's a strong organization, and my goal at the

moment, my brother's also, is that we will hope to sell the
packinghouse, which has a great profit in it, and we own
about 12 percent of the ownership, which is valued at $5.2
million. So we would much rather have our interest in the
form of cash than in the form of a packinghouse and as a
capital gain. So the future will see some resolution of that
problem, but I've been somewhat instrumental on the side in
seeing that this sale of the packinghouse may become part of
the move to the new marketing organization, just because we
don't want to be in the packinghouse business, just like
originally we didn't want to be in the water company business
when we built the water company.

LASKEY: What happened to the water company? Do you still
own that?

MARTIN: We submitted our interest to the people by a vote,
and the people voted to accept Metropolitan Water District
as the water company management and ownership. We sold it
back to them at our cost, just to get out from under. But
we did accomplish the goal of bringing water to the Gavilan
Hills, which was a major goal. It was two miles away and
it's 12,000 acres in the watershed area of this plateau.
It was a very constructive thing to do, because now everybody
has water and before that nobody had water.
LASKEY: And the land is usable and of value, which you
didn't have before.

MARTIN: Well, the day we turned on the first pump, we made

the remark to each other, Mr. McMillan and myself, that we

just made $1.5 million. Because it added, actually, $1,000

per acre to our holdings at that time, that's a long time

ago. Which was true. It didn't mean anything, because we

were not after it, and what we really want to do is convert

it into a very beautiful long-range development and have

others participate and our family to participate.

LASKEY: In the process of going through all this, when you

started growing citrus up there, did you get involved in the

growing of it at all?

MARTIN: Oh, I was and I am.

LASKEY: Oh, you are.

MARTIN: You see, I'm managing the groves right now as the

member of our partnership between Ed and myself. We have

an operating manager and an assistant resident who are on

the property all the time. I'm involved in a business sense,

with the responsibility of operating it now. Which is fine.

When you're a farmer you worry when it gets cold.

LASKEY: Or too hot, or no rain.

MARTIN: Oh, yes. It's a lousy business, but it's kind of

fun. But we have never made any real money.

LASKEY: Well, it's a very chancy business, especially citrus.

MARTIN: Yes, you can lose a couple hundred thousand [dollars],

or you can make it. You lose several hundred thousand

periodically, that's about the way it is. And the reason,

fundamentally, is that we're really in a marginal area.

We grow a high quality of fruit, but it's cold, and some of

the places on the ranch are shallow soiled and a little more

difficult to develop a producing tree. But it is quality

fruit, and we have a very good operation with an outstanding

manager, Mr. Chuck Johnson, who's permanently our manager.

LASKEY : Do you have a timetable, even remotely, for starting

to phase out the citrus operation?

MARTIN: Well, I'm convinced that with the major change

in the cost of energy because of the oil shortage and the

increase in electrical rates, that any marginal operation will
fail. And we, I believe, are seeing the first indications of that

right now. Because our costs of water are about $156 an acre-
foot per year and we apply 2.8 acre-feet per acre per year —
xAnd this alone, let alone the cost of chemicals (which are
from oil) , this alone destroys the opportunity for profit, even
though the cost of fruit has increased. And there's an excess
of fruit on the market because of the large plantings in the
San Joaquin Valley. Then there are many areas of the emerging
nations throughout the world that are producing oranges,
and with new increased communications and the various markets
that exist, it's tough for the California grower at this moment.

So, therefore, I really believe that a forecast of time
would be that we will not replace sections of the grove which

may depreciate due to excess water, incidentally. We will
continue to operate, but with an eye to the possibility of
developing small ranches for people who want to have an orange
grove and who want a home, ten to twenty acres- And it may
be that we'll develop an operating company with Chuck Johnson
heading it, which would commercially operate the orchards
for the landowners. But the landlords would have the benefit
of a cash flow from the citrus or a deduction of a commercial
operation, which would be beneficial to them, and they could
hold it for long-range appreciation of the land, through
twenty years, let's say. And it will appreciate, for those.
We may go that route. That's the process that we're in and
the long-range planning at this moment. iMany things tie in
to such a thesis. The best form of land planning and
community planning: we're very capable of that in our office.
And I'm certain that a very exciting community will develop,
with our land being part of it.

LASKEY : Well, it's that you're in the position of creating
something from the very beginning, exactly the way you want
it. It's a wonderful challenge.

MARTIN: Well, it doesn't really work out that way. It's an
uphill battle to even attain half of your desires. The process
of land development that is existing today in our various
governments, particularly in Riverside, includes the dominance
of certain people that, let's say, are the environmentalists'

group, or the no-growth group, that throw roadblocks against
development or in front of development continually and
hypothecate impossible situations, such as growth brings
an undesirable element into the community, brings smog, brings
all the negative factors. And those people really have a frame
of mind like that because they really do want to live in the
country. They got their land cheap, and they don't want
anybody in the whole area to change the nature of the land.
I can't blame them, except that big landowners like us have a
terrible problem. We don't want to dump the land to gain money,
because that's kind of a distasteful thing to me and to Ed;
we really want to develop the land into something that is
high-quality, and that takes governmental procedures and
policies that allow for such a thing. So it's an uphill battle
within elements of the society.

It's an interesting game, but we're not able to control
our destiny, we can only influence it. And we try very hard
to do that by spending money v/ith consultants, as we're doing
now, to show the advantages to the supervisors and the
planners of certain kinds of systems, civil systems, that will
allow for a proper development in a reasonably intelligent
economic format. Most planners and most people, like super-
visors, have no appreciation for the financial aspects of
development. They have the belief that all developers are in
for a fast buck and are loaded with money and they can build

the roads and they can put in all the underground utilities
and come out ahead. Our pro forma has indicated that that's
not the case at all, that we have a hard time finding the
formula for optimizing our investment. From our point of
view, we're investing for partnership of thirty kids, you
see, and so it's not to make a fast buck, it's to develop
a long-range, solid ownership type of thing. Of course
there will be sales, but that money probably will go to the
education of these children, that's what I believe.
LASKEY: It's interesting that they, the environmentalists
or whatever, would challenge you or give you--when you clearly
want to develop an outstanding product, that you're not
there to bring chaos.

MARTIN: I think most people now in the valley, who are out
there, like retired firemen, three or four of those, I think
they believe that we are trying to do good. But they don't
want the change, and so no matter what they believe-- And
we do have a good image; Albert C. Martin and Associates has
an outstanding image in the planning department and before the
board of supervisors because we have done so many fine
projects, recent projects, that have gone through the Riverside
planning department and supervisors. But one can still see
that it's the process of creating the new formats, new laws,
new ordinances, that will allow for this, is pioneering of
the first order. And this is nothing new for the people

that have been bringing raw land into urbanization, it's
always been this way. It's just tougher these days they
tell me.

LASKEY: You're finding out. I'm curious — You mentioned the
rising costs of energy. Does your new plan include any
alternative energy sources?

MARTIN: We haven't really given any attention. However, it's
a fine question, because all residential work, all residential
projects, in the future will really have to take advantage of
some of the energy conservation things. The management of
energy on a communitywide basis is an important future subject.
Certainly solar energy will be employed for domestic water
and m.aybe a little bit for household heating, but there is
much more in the "way of energy use in a community than just
residential lighting. There's street lighting, and there's
water pressures and all of those utility things that require
energy. Especially to move water from one level up to another.
That's where it gets expensive, and I don't know what those
things are yet for such a new community, but there will be
something there.

One thing that may happen in the future, since we are
somewhat writing for the future, is that I hope to develop
this land in a manner which will preserve some of the natural
landmarks. On our property is a small mountain called Gavilan
Peak. It's a very unique geological landmark; it's a perfect

cone in shape. And all of our plans at this stage will include
the preservation of that peak in its natural state and not
endeavor to hang residences all over its sides. I am of a
mind to dedicate it as an open space, permanently, along
with some of the other possible parks in the area. I think
that the preservation of Gavilan Peak would be a wonderful
thing for the future and a wonderful thing to live in the
flatlands around the peak because it will be untouched.
So those are criteria things that hover around the background
of the planning process. It's a very exciting kind of an
endeavor. So that is just one more element in the life of
Al and Ed, in their practice of architecture and engineering.

So is there anything else that occurs to you concerning
the Gavilan or the Riverside ranch?
LASKEY: No, I think we've covered that.

MARTIN: Oh, several things about the Riverside ranch that
may be of interest, for the record. I spoke of the English
interest in the Riverside area, but that interest also v/as
involved in the mining for gold in the area. Back at the
turn of the century, there were a series of mines in the
Gavilan Hills area, the most prominent of which was the
Idaleona mine, and we have named our first development project
Idaleona Estates. That mine was open when I first went up
there, but since then it's been closed over, so there's no
evidence of it except piles of rock in the area. But the

country is very loaded with gold-bearing ore, but we all

know that that's a process that these days takes a lot of

capital to pursue it, and conditions really aren't very logical

for people to go down there and try to start in the goldmining

business again. The Idaleona mine produced several million

dollars for the owners in the turn of the century.

LAS KEY : Do you know how it happened to become an English

settlement? It seems very remote.

MARTIN: No. If you think about the other areas, such as

Pasadena, and the influence of the railroads and influence

of [Henry E.] Huntington, you realize that at the turn of

the century there was a great deal of wealth and a great

many wealthy people looking at some of the possibilities of

the West, and there's no question in my mind that these people

came with considerable money. The weather of course is ideal

in Riverside; it's hot in the summer, but it's a beautiful

place. And that's true all along the foothill of the Sierra

Madre mountains. Some of those areas have blossomed and some

have deteriorated, but I think that was part of that whole

movement, the railroad movement or the development of

these big hotels, like the Huntington Hotel, the Ambassador

Hotel later on, around 1920. But the early ones were related

to the railroad.

LASKEY: I think Redlands and Pasadena were actually built

to resemble eastern communities, weren't they, and then

people were wooed to come out here, and so the environment

would be as much like home as possible.

iVlARTIN: Well, it's true of Riverside, if you think of the old

Riverside Mission Inn and some of those facilities out there and,

as I mentioned, the residential area along the Victoria district.

I think it's part of that same early turn-of -the-century

Victorian period. People in this country, like 20 Mule Team

Borax, which later became U.S. Borax, [was] all English-owned.

LASKEY: I didn't know that.

MARTIN: My father was the architect for 20 Mule Team Borax and

built the Furnace Creek Inn in Death Valley as one of their

hotels, the hotel in Death Valley, and that was his design.

LASKEY: Do you still go there?

MARTIN: We were there last year. I had once designed an

addition to it when I was a young architect. We just stopped

in last year, and it's changed, because the recreation

vehicles have taken over Death Valley, really,

LASKEY: Death Valley must have been very remote from

Los Angeles,

MARTIN: Yes, it was. There was, of course, a road, and they

were mining borax out near Death Valley,

LASKEY: Did they really use twenty-mule teams?

MARTIN: Oh, yes. They were existing when my father first

went there. As a matter of fact, he went there and they

located a site for the hotel. They drilled tunnels into the

mountains to develop cool water. He worked with the president

of Pacific Coast Borax Company, that had the 20 Mule Team label;

the president was Mr. [Christian B.] Zabriskie.

LASKEY: Of Zabriskie Point.

MARTIN: Zabriskie Point. And then Frank Jennifer and Harry

Gower. Harry Gower was really the son-in-law of Frank Jennifer,

who was the West Coast manager of Pacific Coast Borax. And

Harry Gower really had the Furnace Creek Inn under his wing,

so there's a lot of history connected with Furnace Creek Inn

that is very interesting. My father was very much involved.

LASKEY: Well, the Furnace Creek Inn, according to my little

sheet, was done in 1927 —

MARTIN: I guess that could be right.

LASKEY: --and that was a while ago, as far as the development

of Death Valley. Who were they expecting-- I mean, it sounds

like a very bold move to build an inn at that time.

MARTIN: Well, it was-- I believe that there were special

hotels that were somewhat tied together, as far as friendship

is concerned. And the one hotel operator that was very close

to the Jennifers who managed the Furnace Creek Inn was

Mrs. Coffman in Palm Springs. She had, I believe, the Desert

Inn. I'm not sure whether it was the Desert Inn, but she

was a hotel owner-operator, and there was a tie. Whether it

was related to the railroads I'm not sure; it could have been.

But of course Pacific Coast Borax was a big industry, and
they may have owned their own railroad in there, and I think
they did. But they were tied over to Baker and some of those
towns along the main railroad, starting with Victorville.
It was the main route, so this was a branch road, and you went
in thirty, forty miles with it. Like the existence of hotels
in Pasadena, or the Mission Inn, there was I think the Desert
Inn and there was the Furnace Creek Inn, all appealing to a
certain group of sophisticated travelers.

LASKEY : It must have been a great adventure in the 19 20's
to go to Death Valley.

MARTIN: Oh, I am certain that it was. I'm certain that the
spirit of adventure was there, and, which you may not suspect
today, but I realize that my father participated with all
those other people in the development of the water.
LASKEY: What is the water source?

MARTIN: Well, they have a spring, and they tunneled through
a little hill to get to the spring. I remember his talking
about it, and I've seen the tunnel, it's still there.
LASKEY: How was the design hit upon for the inn? Do you
remember?

MARTIN: Well, I'm sure it was inspired by my father, and he
undoubtedly had some of his architects develop it. If I had
to guess, there was an architect by the name of Harry Veale
that might have designed that for Dad. I don't know; you see,

I wasn't around.

LASKEY: No. I just wondered if it had to do with the area,

with the heat.

MARTIN: Well, it was of the Spanish Renaissance inspiration,

perhaps more mission inspiration.

LASKEY: It's a beautiful hotel.

MARTIN: It is; it's a very friendly hotel. Well, we got over

into a little different branch.

LASKEY: Well, they're part of the same thing.

TAPE NUMBER: III, SIDE TWO
FEBRUARY 4, 19 81

LASKEY: Mr. Martin, the last time you talking about the Furnace

Creek Inn, and about the same time that building was built,

your father was involved with building another important

building, a landmark building. City Hall. I thought we

might start today by talking about City Hall.

MARTIN: I believe that the commissioning of my father,

along with John Parkinson and John [C. ] Austin, was probably

the highlight of my father's career. The three architects

were unusual in their practice, and, as a team, they were quite

formidable because of the many, many contacts that the three

of them had. They had competition, however, that was active

in their attempts to do public work, and it was a consortium

of local architects--and I can't name them — that banded together

and eventually did the [Los Angeles] County Hospital, called

Allied Architects [of Los Angeles]. And I'm sure they were

very capable, but there were a lot of them. When the

selection for the design of the City Hall took place in the

early twenties, my father and the other two presented their case,

particularly to the Board of Public Works [Commissioners] and

someone by the name of Hugh [J.] McGuire, who I believe was

the president of the board, and they prevailed with their

arguments and were selected.

The unique thing about the design of the City Hall was
the fact that it was the first building to be approved
separately to be built higher than 150 feet, which was a
limit height in the city ordinance. City Hall was designed
at approximately 450 feet, twenty-eight stories, and it was
designed to do the wonderful job that I think it has done
through the many years of being a landmark that is seen from
all parts of the city. Today it is submerged by the many
high-rises that have been built since, many of them designed
by our own firm. But it is unique in its position in the
Civic Center Mall, it is unique in its characteristics of
being a classical revival of the kinds of the various features
of the Roman and Greek architecture.

City Hall was built for less than the budget, a few
dollars, which was less than $5 million. And if one attempts
to appraise that today, they of course can't believe it.
Because not only is the City Hall a well-built building, but
it contains some very fine rooms and some very fine uses of
marble and ornamental work and some very fine terrazzo and
marble floors, and really it has done so well. We all know
that as an office building it is inefficient; however as a
central symbolic structure it's still very excellent, and
that's some fifty years later. I suspect that the City Hall
will be there fifty years from now, also, and maybe much
longer than that, I hope.

One thing connected with this City Hall was the controversy
that existed at that time in the determination of the Civic
Center Mall, and the Civic Center Mall was not aligned at the
time of the design of the City Hall. They tell me that there
were once designs for running the Civic Center Mall north and
south, down Main Street, Spring and Main Street.
LASKEY: Well, Allied Architects, I think, had a system for a
grandiose, sort of a Renaissance or a beaux arts plan for the
Civic Center, didn't they? Was that part of what your father
was dealing with, was it a whole plan that the Allied Architects
had presented or was it — ?

MARTIN: I understood that there were more than one plan, and
I think the Allied Architects did have a plan, now that you
remind me of it. I don't know that my father ever prepared
a Civic Center plan. I don't think so. But I do know that
the final adoption of the east-west mall was the responsibility
of the chief administrative officer of the county--! 'm trying
to think of his name.

LASKEY: Was it [C. Erwin] Piper, was he it?

MARTIN: Not Piper; he was the city. This was [Arthur Will],
the C.A.O. [chief administrative officer] , and his son [Arthur
Will, Jr.], who became the C.A.O. over the county later on.
But it was he that had the persuasion and the strength to
settle the alignment of the Civic Center Mall in an east-west
direction, and at that time the court's buildings were

constructed several blocks to the west. But this is much

later than the early considerations of the City Hall. It was

built in a time before there was great technical research in

the construction of earthquake [-proof ] buildings. Frank

Lloyd Wright had designed the [Imperial] Hotel in Tokyo,

I believe, which had withstood some great shocks, and at that

time my father, who was the engineering-oriented person,

performed many studies as to the fundamentals that should be

involved in City. Hall construction. One feature that is not

talked about is that the central tower rests on a gigantic

pad of a foundation of reinforced concrete, some eight feet

thick, covering the entire area of the tower itself. And

like a pendulum, that mass of concrete causes the tower to

act in synchronization with the movement of the earth in an

earthquake, because it's homogeneous. .

LASKEY: How deep is that?

MARTIN: That's down below the level of the garage and

whatever rooms are underneath that garage. There's two

levels of garage there now. Furthermore, their design

included a weakened plane joint at each floor line in the tower,

which is in effect a compressible joint between the terra-cotta

stones of the outside. That was caulked with a compressible

mastic. The idea was that as the tower moved in an earthquake,

like a spine, the stones would remain intact, and the movement

would be taken by the joints. And one can observe that if

they look carefully. I'm not certain whether it's been
concealed now with the recaulking that has taken place in
recent years, but it is a feature that was there.

Other things of interest about the City Hall include a
kind of a sad thing that used to happen in construction in
those days, where safety features were not as important as
they are today. The death of men working on the structure
was often referred to as "we'll lose one man per million dollars,"
and that sticks in my mind, which I learned as a boy. I don't
believe that the City Hall had five men killed, but it had
several men 'killed. One of them was tragic. In the corner of
the tower, there are elevator shafts, and at " the top of the
City Hall there's kind of a gallery. And the elevator shaft
in the southeast corner was, during construction, an open
shaft, and one of the workmen thought the elevator was there
and took his wheelbarrow and himself and walked right into
the hole and [the fall] killed him. Whereas this is a little
bit of a sad note,- it tells a little bit about some of the
usual problems of the danger of construction, which we have
today; we have people that don't quite make it through the
construction process. Hopefully we are safer today than they
were in those days.

There were some artists, and I wish I could recall their
names, that were prominent in the decor of the City Hall,
sculptors as well as painters. They're in the record. But

they were prominent, and I'm sure it should be said that the
fine arts part of the design of the City Hall was complemented
with the full spirit of the design of the architects and the
elected officials of the day. And today it stands there as a
fine demonstration of the art.

LASKEY: I assume that the lifting of the height limit was
largely due to your father's proficiency or [his] being able
to persuade them about the safety of the building.
MARTIN: From a safety point of view, I believe that that's
true. From the standpoint of the design, I believe the other
architects as well as my father were very much in agreement
that it should be unique and tall. About that time there were
other buildings, one of them by [Bertram] Goodhue, and I'm not
sure whether this was before the Los Angeles City Hall or not,
but the state capitol in Nebraska, I think, it is, is a tov/er
similar to the City Hall, but not as classic as the City Hall.
So towers were part of the heritage, architectural heritage,
of American cities, as they were certainly in the Renaissance
period of European cities, where often there were bell towers,
but there were towers that were representative of the unions
and the city governments and so forth all through Europe.
Certainly the classical Renaissance character of the City Hall
was really returning to the cities after there was the period
of revolt against the classics that was demonstrated so well
in the fair of 189 3 in Chicago, where the [Louis] Sullivan

and [Henry] Richardson influence was prominent. So there
were many banks and neoclassic-type structures, and the City
Hall was one of them.

LASKEY : How did three architects like Parkinson, Austin, and
your father, who were each a force in themselves, how did they
work together to create a design?

MARTIN: Well, John Parkinson was a noted designer. His son
was coming along, and he was also well trained in design.
That was Donald Parkinson. Also there was a gentleman by
the name of [Austin] Whittlesey that I believe was very
prominent in the design. My father was really proud of
the design and a good contributor, and he probably covered
the engineering aspects of the trio. John Austin was the
president of the Chamber of Commerce and the politician, the
arranger; and of course he did a beautiful job. He was a
very suave, capable architect. So they were an excellent team
and I believe performed the job without friction.
LASKEY: Do you remember when it was opened? Do you remember
the opening of City Hall?

MARTIN: Not the ceremony. I remember the time and I remember
something about the existence of sculpture and painting and
I remember particularly that the granite which clads the lower
floors of the City Hall was a California granite and it was
from the McGilvary quarries in the lower Sierra area, inland
from Fresno. And that quarry supplied this light gray granite

to many of the buildings in San Francisco.

LASKEY : When City Hall was built, was the old courthouse
still standing, the old red stone courthouse?
MARTIN: I believe it was, and I believe it was torn down
after City Hall was opened, but I'm not sure of that. I don't
recall any of the activity in the removal of the old City
Hall. It's too bad that it's gone, but that's the way it was;
it was of course condemned and not usable.

LASKEY: Wasn't there a feeling at the time that City Hall was
built that this was a spectacular building, that this was
something that was going to become, as it- has, a symbol of
Los Angeles? That it was an extraordinary —

MARTIN: Most certainly. It was the tall building, it was a
building that could stand alone. It became the representative
of the image of the city of Los Angeles; I can recall there
were many paintings, advertisements, perhaps from the Chamber
of Commerce, where you would see the City Hall with a background
of the snowcapped mountains and the orange trees in the fore-
ground. And that really was very symbolic of what existed
at that time, because the orange trees were not far away,
in Pasadena and Monrovia and so forth, and the Whittier area.

Of course the mountains are the same. So I would say, yes, it
accomplished what it was intended to do: it became a symbol
of Los Angeles that was used extensively by the convention
bureaus and the visitors' bureau and the Chamber of Commerce

and such groups.

LASKEY: I've seen a lot of pictures of City Hall when it

had the Lindbergh dome, or the Lindbergh light, at the top.

When was that put on, do you remember?

MARTIN: I'd forgotten about that. Yes, I don't know what's

happened with that.

LASKEY: It's not working any more, obviously, but I think

it was there for-- I think it was there when I came out here,

which was in the 1950s.

MARTIN: I think it was there, too, and the name of it. I'd

forgotten all about that.

LASKEY: About the same time that your father was working on

City Hall, he also was working on or had completed St. Vincent's

Church, which was another landmark building.

MARTIN: Yes. I think St. Vincent's Church, like the City Hall,

was one of the bright spots of my father's practice. A cute

story connected with it-- that this was Doheny ' s fire escape--

always sticks in my mind, because Doheny, Edward Doheny, gave

the money for the church, which was, I believe, $1 million, and

at that time he was having great trouble with the Teapot Dome

scandal, and so the word was that this was Doheny ' s bailout.

But that church of course was also a classic, and I personally

drive by it often and observe really the beautiful techniques,

balance, architectural balance of the detail. And I remember

as a boy going down there and going to the sculptor's shack.

where he was modeling all the detail in clay, which was before

the casting of the stone. And there was a lot of cast stone.

I can almost name the sculptor, but it slips me again; he was

one of the prominent sculptors in the Southland that did that

work.

LASKEY: Now, [John B.] Smeraldi did the painting, right?

the ceiling painting?

MARTIN: Yes.

LASKEY: We'll check on who the sculptor was; I think we can

find that.

MARTIN: Yes. The sculptor, I'm sure it's in the records.

But the church is certainly a beautiful thing, and it is today.

It has done very well in the earthquakes, even though there

has been some damage. You wouldn't know it if you look at

it today. I think the quality of the materials is very well

exemplified today as you observe its beautiful character — the

tile in the dome and the nature of the cast stone, the tower,

and so forth.

LASKEY: Did your father model it after any specific church

or style?

MARTIN: Yes, it's been said that one of the Mexican churches,

and I can't recall [from] what city, was the inspiration to

my father and his architectural group. And I can't for sure

name the person in the office that did the detail of the design;

I don't think it was Harry Veale. But a great deal of inspiration

came from this one Mexican church, a great deal of similarity.

I believe the execution was a beautiful job of interpreting

the inspiration of the other church, and I wish I knew the

name of the church.

LASKEY : One of the interesting things about St. Vincent's

is the siting of it on that corner, which does a lot, I think,

to show the church off.

MARTIN: Yes. The diagonal positioning of it does just that.

And it really relates the church, not only to the intersection,

but it relates the church to the property [Chester Place] at

the back of the church so well, where there were some fine

residences, including the Doheny residence. It's, I think,

an outstanding piece of architecture, and it's been

recognized as such.

LASKEY: Is it Spanish colonial or Spanish Renaissance?

How would you characterize it?

MARTIN: Well, I really can't say or comment on the refinement

to that extent. I think it's Spanish Renaissance, because the

Spanish colonial was really much more local. But I really

am not equipped to discuss that refinement.

LASKEY: Your father, then, really had two churches on

West Adams, and it sort of embraced the whole wonderful

elegant area that was West Adams at the turn of the century

and the twenties, with the Christian Science church down by .

Hoover [Street] and then St. Vincent's up at Figueroa [Street].

MARTIN: Yes. I don't know his role in the Christian Science
church. I know he designed the dome, and I just don't know
that he did the entire structure. He must have been highly
involved, but I just don't know. There might have been
someone else associated on that Christian Science church.
LASKEY: Well, was the dome done — The Christian Science
church was built in 1908, and I see dates for the dome sometime
later than that. Do you recall-- Obviously it was started
before you were born, and when the dome was put on you would
have been very young, but I wonder if you have any remembrance
or if you know if it was done at a different time.
MARTIN: I have no remembrance of it, and the remembrance
that I have was his pride in designing what was the largest
single-shelled dome in the area, and maybe a broader area than
local. But he was very proud of the design, and this harks
back to the discussion of his interest, in his history as
a brilliant engineer from the University of Illinois, in
reinforced concrete. It shows up through his work there,
shows up through his unique solution to Grauman's Million
Dollar Theatre in the balcony, and for that matter it was part
of his whole practice and his life, this really dealing with
all the structural parts of a building with the same feeling
as he dealt with the aesthetic parts. And I would say that
dealing with the organic quality of the design is still, in
this firm, one of the strong philosophies of design that

remains today, that the structure of the building is as much

a part of the architecture as the superficial expressions of

the exterior. It follows right on through all of our work.

I've been inspired by that, and my brother, Ed, and David is

very much inspired by that; and so it comes down through the

firm.

LASKEY : Was it something that your father ever talked about,

particularly, or was it something that was sort of taught to

you?

MARTIN: No, I was-- I think' that he practiced automatically

as an architect with his great sympathy for the structural

integrity. As I came along, I realized that, of course,

but my training included a transitional period between the

beaux arts school of design and the Bauhaus trends. The

Bauhaus trends of course were structure and lack of

ornamentation and a complete breakaway. So my training

included that element of the design in a very strong way, and

as I grew and observed the work in Holland and Germany — and

France, for that matter--l was very sympathetic to the importance

of the total composite molding of the building structure into

what we may call architecture. But it was there with my

father, and very strongly.

LASKEY: Well, that same feeling about structure and design

and engineering that you were talking about certainly leads

us right back to City Hall.

MARTIN: Very much so. The things about City Hall that we have

talked about this morning include a great concern for the

stability of the structure and ways it could be built to

withstand earthquakes.

LASKEY: Plus, all your father's background in reinforced

concrete and steel, and that whole body of experimentation and

work--

MARTIN: Absolutely.

LASKEY: — that ended up being City Hall.

MARTIN: So it's a very proper reflection, I would say.

LASKEY: What was the Albert C. Martin firm like in 1920,

how large was it?

MARTIN: It was about one hundred people located on the

second floor of the Higgins Building, which he built in 1909

for Thomas Higgins. The building housed the Catholic diocese

office; at that time I believe Bishop [John J.] Cantwell was

in residence, as far as the office is concerned, at the Higgins

Building. The office at that time was a composite of archi-ects

and structural engineers and specification people. It was

managed by a man by the name of McArthur, who was a very

capable person, perhaps given to extravagances in operations,

which became a point of contention later on, as the Depression

came along. I would say it was very well run, and the

construction documents that were produced were excellent

because there were people like Mr. Tom Gilbert, Mr. Norman

Patten, Harry Veale, Joe Longueville, finally, and others
that were very talented architects and engineers.

I remember particularly working there as a young boy,
running a duplicating machine which was for the purpose of
duplicating specifications and forms. It was a ditto machine,
with purple ink and a jelly-like roll that would hold the ink,
and many an hour would be spent there with that. I also
remember the sample room that was adjacent to the specifi-
cation department, I use the word department a little loosely;
but the sample room was excellent, and I remember the walls,
like a library, were lined with shelves with samples of
materials (which is common practice today) . The drafting rooms
were open, and they were scattered all over the second floor,
really, as business would be good or bad.

There was a lot of work being done for the diocese at
that time, churches and schools, including Immaculate Heart
College, which I think was done in the Depression days. I'm
not sure of the date of that.

LASKEY: One other thing that I see was being done at that
time was the Desmond's Building, down at South Broadway,
which is a little jewel.

MARTIN: Oh, yes. The Desmond Building was really ornate
and represented the feeling of fashion in those days. He
was a good friend of Mrs. [Daniel J.] Desmond. His brother-
in-law was at that time a window decorator in the Desmond

organization; that was Bill Vaughey, who later became the men's

buyer in the European circles and so forth. Desmond's was

the ultimate in men's fashion. But that building was elegant.

LASKEY: It still is.

MARTIN: I worked there as a boy, a runner on the main floor

during the summer, several summers. And I always remember

the marble floors and the people that were merchants, a very

select group. Desmond's was really an outstanding institution,

and the building is still there,

LASKEY: The upper part is being used for artists' lofts,

apparently very successfully. I don't know what's happened

to the lower part, if any of the marble might still be under

the false floors.

MARTIN: Yes, it probably is.

LASKEY: Hopefully, someday someone will restore those things

or get back to them.

MARTIN: It was very ornate, which was the expression of the

times.

LASKEY: It's certainly a unique building, down on South

Broadway. There's none other like it.

MARTIN: It probably doesn't get the credit that it should get.

LASKEY. I think it's wonderful, one of my favorites. This

is sort of apart from the discussion we're having, but it

seems like a good time to bring it in. You were discussing

the men that worked for your father, and I wonder how he or

you deal with aspiring architects. How do architects who
design for you get credit for their design, or how do they feel
about a firm getting credit for a design that they've done?
I mean, I'm certain that this is a standard architectural
procedure, or a problem. I just wondered how it's handled,
how you deal with it.

MARTIN: It's a very important subject. Our innermost
feeling, that is of myself, to start with, and my brother,
Ed, and David, and now Chris [Christopher], as partners, is
that our staff should be given complete recognition for
their contributions. It is often the case that even when
it's controversial, where I will personally give credit to
those that conceived of the design — The process of designing
things, I believe, includes those that conceive of ideas
and those that encourage them to develop those ideas . I
think the latter is the case in our practice. Even though
all of us have designed things on our own, I would say
that our very best work has come from those that have
very great talent in the conceptual process and our own
input into the design to make it happen and to refine it
or modify it or change it. That's the nature of the process.

There is, however, a strong mood that is always part of
the day-to-day operations of the firm, and that is the desire
on our part for the world to know that we are one organization,
that we're one group, and that the process of design includes

not only the architectural conceptual work and the detailing
and the refinement of it, but includes this organic quality
of all the systems, but playing the role that by their very
nature are part of the design. Today we have the importance
of the mechanical electrical systems, always we have the
importance of the structural concept, and so it is a practice
which includes a rather homogeneous attack on the whole
substance of the building and /or the plan. And more and more
in our urban design, we introduce things of external
influence, such as void space surrounding the building and the
void space of the urban complex. So we desire to give credit
to those that should have credit, and we do so in public
declaration, but when it comes to the architect and/or
engineer of record, we hold very strongly to the single entity
of Albert C. Martin and Associates, Architects and Engineers
and, I should say. Planners.

LASKEY: Well, do you have an expectation, then, if a brilliant
architect becomes part of your firm, that he will eventually
leave and go off and establish himself as an individual or as
his own firm? Is this an expectation, or — ?
MARTIN: Well, we realize that it can happen and does. We
endeavor to control our thought processes and our relationship
with our staff, to involve them. And we give them credit, with
the hope that they would find a permanent practice in the
organization of Albert C. Martin and Associates. The existence

of a partnership which is a family partnership can be looked
upon as negative to this on the one hand, but as a strength
on the other. The strength being the responsibility that
is inherent in a family partnership, as compared to the
responsibility that is not inherent in a collection of strange
people — wrong word — of a collective group of architects
and/or engineers who want to practice together. All one has
to do is look at history and one will find that there have
been successful partnerships of individuals but [that] they
eventually have broken away and that singleness and cohesion
has disappeared. We have kept Albert C. Martin and Associates
together, and we are anticipating that we will stay together
at least for another, let's say, forty, fifty years because
of the way we have structured it.

This is not to say in any sense that top architects and
engineers cannot have a very complete practice, with full
recognition that they are highly professional and should have
credit. For example, we introduce our top people into clubs.
They are members of the California Club or the Jonathan Club
or the Chamber of Commerce, and we treat them just as if they
are a partner, and there will be more and more of that. So
your fundamental question of a brilliant young architect
coming here and then going on his own is a good question,
but I believe there are some very substantial arguments for
the collective practice, where this young man can design

important structures here, whereas if he goes out onto his
own he cannot design important structures because he's
unknown. And of course the practice today is more a collec-
tivism than ever before, a collectivism of talents; and if
you really look at it, a person like myself is an organizer
of people of different skills in such a way that the end
product emerges, hopefully, in an optimum way.
LASKEY: And of course the facilities that you have as an
organization here, which you are able to pass on to your
architects and planners, an individual is not likely to have
the sorts of facilities you have.

MARTIN: Just couldn't afford them. We have a million dollars'
worth of computers, you know, and extensive talents in
engineering and planning. That's true, he couldn't do it.
I'm not saying that he can't make it, because architects do,
and more credit to them. But in today's world, which is
influenced by the complicated corporate structure in the
business world, today's world includes many more complications
than when my father practiced, many more. I think he worried
just as much, but the process is much more complicated,
especially with the introduction of computer-aided design,
which is big in our firm right now. This is an evolution
of the modular concept of uniting units of materials into
what is a kind of a building structure.

TAPE NUMBER: IV, SIDE ONE
FEBRUARY 4, 19 81

LASKEY: So in a sense, then, architecture in itself has
become so complicated today that it's to the advantage, in
many cases, of an individual architect to be part of a corporate
plan.

MARTIN: I believe that to be true. I know that individuals ^
can develop a unique name as an architect, and we have some
in the city. They do unique buildings, and sometimes they
are great pieces of architecture; but the major planning and
architectural designs emanate from the collective group of
architects and sometimes architects and engineers. So,
therefore, the leadership of that process becomes the
principal challenge of the architect.

LASKEY: Sort of getting back to the 1920s, there was one
other influence in this time in your father's career, which
was the beginning of his association with the May Company.
MARTIN: My father, of course, was associated with the
Hamburgers [Asher Hamburger and Sons] before the May Company,
and he designed the original Hamburger Building. He '.vas the
engineer for it when he was working for [Alfred F.] Rosenheim,
Later, halfway through the design, they had to disassociate
Rosenheim from the job, and they awarded the completion of
the job to my father. That was the start. That was probably
1906, because he was married in 1907, and I think he had

completed the design. He added units to the May Company,
and Claude Beelman was given one of the units of the Mav
Company to design.

LASKEY: Now, are we talking about the structure down on
Eighth — ?

MARTIN: Eighth and Hill [Streets]. So this was before the
May Company purchased Hamburger's. Colonel [David] May came
out with his two sons, Tom [Thomas] and Morton, and introduced
them to my father and he was generally their archetect for many
years, even though Claude Beelman did some of the work because
of the influence of the Union Bank. So the May Company
building program with branch stores didn't start until about
the time I came into the office, because I worked on the May
Company Wilshire, and that would have been about 1940, I
believe. There were always things being done in the downtown
store, however, and Dad's relationship was good. Later on,
that account developed into a large account because we did some,
I believe, fourteen to seventeen branch shopping centers--
Lakewood, Crenshaw, the [San Fernando] Valley, San Diego,
one of the others out here. West Covina--
LASKEY: Eastland,

MARTIN: Eastland, yes. And I guess others. So I was
greatly involved in that account, to the extent that I was
involved in the design of Mr. May's home and subsequently
David May's home, along with Sam [Samuel A.] Marx in the case

of Mr. Tom May, who was Tom May's brother-in-law and a very

prominent Chicago architect. Extremely capable.

LASKEY: You were a fairly young boy at this time.

MARTIN: In the twenties?

LASKEY: Yes, You were probably in prep school?

MARTIN: I went to Villanova [Preparatory] School in the

Ojai Valley in 1923 and spent four years there. That was

about the time of the Depression, the start of the Depression.

LASKEY: You were- in prep school, then, when the Depression

started?

MARTIN: I was in prep school, and the financial situation was

very difficult at my father's practice, extremely so, because

the Depression, which was 1929, I believe, wiped him out and '

many of his properties, like the Fourteenth and Hill corner,

like the Hohm Building at Sixth and Western [Avenue] , where

he was a partial owner with Harry Hitchcock, Fred O'Brien,

and Mr. Healy. The office was losing money, and it was my

mother's estate that saved the office. She sold her ranch

to her daughter, my sister, for some $35,000, which went in to

save the office from bankruptcy. My father saved the homeplace

at Seventh and Catalina, 712 [So. Catalina] , and he saved

the Riverside ranch, which my brother and I now own and

which has such a great future.

But the Depression was very hard on the family because
we had a large — We had six children, four girls and two boys.

and we were all either in prep school or university, at USC,
and the costs were heavy. Mother and Dad sacrificed, probably
we'll never know how much so, and we all made it through the
university.

LASKEY: All six of you?

MARTIN: All six. Even though we worked part time ourselves
to help get through. But my last year of Villanova Prep
School, my bachelor uncle helped pay my tuition; that is, my
uncle Will Borchard, and he came through and helped in that
way. My father, incidentally, was the architect for Villanova
Prep School in the Ojai Valley. So back in the twenties,
that was one of those projects that was related to the
Catholic diocese.

I went to USC because my two sisters, who were ahead of
me, Evelyn and Margaret, they were both Thetas, and one was
the president of the house, and USC had a good school of
architecture .

LASKEY: Was there ever any thought of the girls going into
architecture, were they ever considered?

MARTIN: None that I-- I'd say no, there was no thought, no
serious thought.

LASKEY: No Julia Morgans in the family.

MARTIN: No. [laughter] Evelyn was interested in literature;
Margaret was interested in languages, German particularly;
and Carolyn and Lucille were interested more in the arts.

Lucille was most inclined towards art and architecture,
LASKEY: You said before you had always assumed you were
going to be an architect. Was this something that your father
encouraged you to do?

MARTIN: I think so, subliminally . I forget any particular
incidents except that I was always involved on the fringes.
The stories he would tell concerning his business affected
me greatly; his pride, his extreme pride in his accomplishments,
I'm sure, was a very motivating force. He was, after all, one
of the prominent architects here. He was a kind of a lone
architect, following John Parkinson, who was the prominent ■
architect, I would say, and Morgan, Walls, and Clements, and
some fine firms. My father was alone as A. C. Martin, and
he made it and did great work and was highly trusted.
LASKEY: It's interesting that you weren't intimidated by
that.

MARTIN: Never had that feeling. I never had the feeling of
any submersion at all by my father's dominance. As a matter
of fact, if one analyzes it, I was interested in some things
that my father didn't care about. I was more interested
in the architectural planning and detail, even though my
father's works illustrate some very great capabilities. I
know basically my father was really a builder and an engineer
and had a fine sensitivity of design and was able to organize
people to do the designs. Whereas I would be a little more

inclined towards the design concepts myself and did very well

in the university in design.

LASKEY: Did you ever go with your father, when you were

young, to sites or to locations?

MARTIN: Yes, often. My life was a little bit remote

because I was at prep school, but I did work on jobs. For

example, I was assistant timekeeper on Polytechnic High

School, I worked for the school board, I was a timekeeper

on the Cord Building at Wilshire and Mariposa [Avenue] . I

was working there for Lynch-Cannon, the contractors from

Salt Lake. That was a story unto itself. So I really was

kind of involved in — Oh, I also worked as a laborer on a

church in Santa Monica, for Father [Nicholas] Conneally.

LASKEY: St. Monica's?

MARTIN: St. Monica's Church.

LASKEY: That's a beautiful church.

MARTIN: Yes, it is. I was a laborer there and worked in

summers. So the answer is I was quite involved in the

summertime, during high school when I was I guess old enough

to do work like that. So my father really in a way, if you

think about it, was training me.

LASKEY: Sort of.

MARTIN: Sort of. But I didn't give it — You know, it hasn't

occurred to me that I was being processed.

LASKEY: Well, you were being encouraged, certainly.

MARTIN: Being encouraged sure, and I loved it,
LASKEY: And you still do, obviously.
MARTIN: Oh yeah, sure.

SECOND PART (MARCH 3, 1981)

LASKEY: Mr. Martin, you started USC in 1931, is that correct?
MARTIN: Yes. In the school of architecture, having graduated
from Villanova Prep School in the Ojai Valley and having been
away from the urban area for four years, I really believe
that when one is away from the city and from business, in
a country-oriented prep school, that one is shielded from
the real facts of life, and some ways it's a happy-go-lucky
existence. My life at Villanova Prep School was one of hard
work academically and a very intense participation in sports —
tennis and football and basketball. It was a small school,
so you could do almost all the sports and really enjoy it.
LASKEY: Did you have a favorite?

MARTIN: Oh, I suppose the favorite was football, but we had
a fine baseball team, and we played El Monte for the
championship of Southern California, such things; we had a
good time. Academically speaking, I believe the education
was reasonably good, and I was always a student and was the
valedictorian, which pattern kind of carried on through the
university too. But the main thing is I was oriented to
the country life when I went to USC, and going to USC, studying

architecture, I found that I was considerably behind those
students that were trained in the various high schools in
the city. They had classes in architecture and history and
drafting that put them out way in front of me when I was a
freshman. As a matter of fact, I think the first year in
architecture was a struggle.

The times were difficult. The Depression was on.
Architecture and engineering had come to a halt, and my father
and the family were losing their assets and were really starting
down the road to being very poor. My father was a person
that had an illness that would cause him to faint occasionally,
so he always had to have a driver, and even in the depths of
Depression somebody had to drive my father. There was a
time the children, including myself, became the driver, and
we would take Dad to work at Second and Main, in the
Higgins Building, and pick him up. The business of paying the
tuition became one of the burdens, because at that time, I
had a sister Margaret [and] a sister Carolyn in school also.
My sister Evelyn had gone to USC and graduated, I believe,
in 1928. So the Martin family was starting to be well known
as a large university family.
LASKEY: Yes. [laughter]

MARTIN: And eventually it turned into something. I think
that certainly like twenty to thirty of the offspring have
gone to USC.

LASKEY: That must be almost a record of some sort,

MARTIN: Well, there's some big families; I know that we're

one of them. And there's a great spirit that exists today,

a loyalty to the university amongst most of us.

LASKEY: Did it ever occur to you in that time to go to UCLA,

for example, rather than USC, because of the cost?

MARTIN: No. My sister Evelyn did go to UCLA when it was

up on North Vermont, and it was in I guess the middle

twenties when they started UCLA, and UCLA was not engaged in

the teaching of architecture,

LASKEY: Oh, it wasn't.

MARTIN: And as a matter of fact, today there's only the

University of Calfiornia at Berkeley, [California Polytechnic

State] University at San Luis Obispo, and USC that are

accredited universities for the teaching of architecture.

LASKEY: Really.

MARTIN: Now UCLA has a fine school of architecture and fine

arts, and the type of degree, I think it's slightly different

than USC. But USC was always a strong school of architecture

even in the early days, and that v/as the important matter.

We did work while we were at USC. There were government
programs which would allow us to earn money by drawing
various pictures of various projects and drafting and things
like that; and then of course I finally ran the university
parking lots as a way of helping out in the last several

years of my education. But at USC I found that I couldn't
participate in sports because of the drag of time in the
studies of architecture. The disadvantage that I originally
had as a freshman competing with some of my peers slowly went
away, and by the time I was graduated after a five-year course,
I was the valedictorian again and I was president of the stu-
dent body. And I guess that is something that has gone down
through my whole life, is having the qualities of leadership,
I suppose, which went through the American Institute of Archi-
tects, the Chamber of Commerce, and other organizations.

But I liked USC, and it was an interesting time because
it was a time when there was a transition in the teaching of
architecture from the beaux arts technique of teaching to
include modern concepts, particularly [those] advocated by
the Bauhaus school and, to some extent, the architects of Italy
and France who were also moving in the area of very contempo-
rary design.

LASKEY: Did this create a lot of dialogue, a lot of excitement
in the school of architecture? Did it make it more stimu-
lating do you think?

MARTIN: Well, without a question it was more stimulating,
because the beaux arts technique of teaching included many
laborious design activities, v/hich bordered on drafting and
fine penmanship and things like that. However, I look back
and greatly appreciate the history of architecture and the

development of special projects which involved the classical
designs and the classical planning. And that formality-
still is part of my appraisal of architecture; a certain
balance and proportion is extremely important, I miss it
in some of the contemporary work done by younger students.

I will say that in the attempts to grasp the meaning of
the Bauhaus school of design and the planning activities of
the modern technique, I felt it to be extremely difficult
to really have a feel for the essence of architecture as
we practice it today. This was the beginning of an entirely
different concept of architecture. It was the beginning of
the inclusion of the total environment in which the building
was located. Space was as important as brick and mortar:
the space around the buildings, the space that people walked
through. It was truly an introduction to the whole new
element in design — which today is natural in our urban design
concepts — where the management of the whole design process
includes the management of the space allocation and the
environmental factors that occur in space, whether it's
outside or contained space. So, at that time at the university
there was just a glimmering of this kind of discussion, which
I believe makes it an important time in the teaching of the
history of architecture.

LASKEY: It was probably a social movement as much as an
architectural movement, too — wasn't it?--what we call modernism.

MARTIN: I think so, but I must say that the impacts that we
observed occurring within the academic world were undefined
to a great extent. Even though there was a social movement,
I don't think we really talked or thought in those terms.
What happened at that period, people like myself graduated
and entered the design world at a time when there was no work,
and as soon as there were a few public things like school-
building projects coming on the scene after the Depression,
the entire evolution was followed by war in 1942 [1941],
December the seventh, I believe. And the war years were
detrimental to the interests of the architects. They were
complementary to the interests of the civil engineer, because
in the manual of the [U.S. Army] Corps of Engineers there was
no such word as architect, and the architect found himself in
the camouflage area, and there were many local architects that
ended up there, just to get a job. It kind of related to
painting rather than building. So the civil engineer was
the only recognized entity at the beginning of World War II,
and that was very bad for the [architecture] profession. Now
that changed before the war was finished, because many hospitals
were built and temporary encampments were being built and
planning became important.

LASKEY: Now, it's been said that the Depression hit Los Angeles
first and it hit it hardest but it also hit it less; that
is, Los Angeles recovered from the Depression earlier than

the rest of the country. Do you feel that was true?
MARTIN: Well, I certainly do feel that was true, from
several points of view. In the farming area--and there was
extensive farming around Los Angeles, in Orange County and
Pomona area, citrus, and the Ventura County area and even
in San Fernando Valley — farming products did very well in
some parts of the Depression and certainly in the war years,
while the Middle West suffered tragic storms, drought. And
that was the beginning of the emigration of people from the
Middle West to Southern California. Those families now are
native Calif ornians of course.

In the war years, of course, Los Angeles was a center of
aircraft industry. This was the beginning of a whole new
electronic industry, and the idea of research and development
was so big that it was a center of activity after the war. But
during the war, Los Angeles did have industry, and the ship-
building industry was big at San Pedro, and all the comple-
mentary manufacturing for defense projects was at hand. So
in the war years Los Angeles wasn't hit that hard, and, prior
to that, I can't say whether Los Angeles, compared to other
cities throughout the United States that had suffered during
the Depression, I can't say that Los Angeles was not hit as
hard as some of the others. I suspect it was hit pretty hard.
LASKEY: It was hit very hard, especially in the beginning,
but apparently the rise of the movie industry in the mid-thirties

helped to bring it out [of the Depression] a little sooner

than the rest of the country.

MARTIN: Of course, now that you mention it, that v/as big in

our whole concept of society,

LASKEY: What were you doing in this time? You graduated

from use in what, 1936?

MARTIN: Nineteen thirty-six. Well, I was married in 1937,

and I was employed in my father's office, in an office that

was deteriorating rapidly due to the lack of business and

the drifting away of the staff, to the point where there was

probably eight or ten people in the office, as compared to

a hundred to a hundred and ten in the twenties. We still had

several very strong staff people: Mr. Tom Gilbert, who was

chief draftsman, Mr. Norman Patten, who was chief structural

engineer, Jack Sparling, Joe Longueville, Mary Sresovich, who

ran the office, and some others. But the lack of work was

really making it a very difficult thing for survival, and this

was part of the thing that really broke my father, which caused

a drain on some of his outside assets, v/hich were eventually

lost, with the exception of the homeplace at 712 Sourh Catalina

Street and the Riverside ranch, which had no indebtedness and

no mortgages levied against it.

So just keeping the office open was a task that was
almost insurmountable. My mother sold her inheritance,
which was a farm in Oxnard of a hundred and twenty acres or

so, for a very small amount. She happened to sell it to
her daughter, my sister Margie Daily, for a ridiculous
amount of money, I think something like $30,000, which money
went to the office to keep it open. And that $30,000 parcel
in those days would probably be worth today like $4 million.
That shows comparatively what has happened.

But, in any case, it was a case of survival, and my
father's health was not good. When things were idle, a great
many people in the business world would attempt to enjoy their
hard times by collecting with each other for luncheon, and
sometimes it involved drinking, and that was not a good
influence in the whole picture. It was a pretty dim picture
at times. That dim picture of the many facets of the Depression
had a big effect on myself and the older daughters of the
family and my mother. It just was depressing, and it
involved not only the points of survival, but the points of
maintaining my father's health, which v;as a very difficult
thing. So between physical handicaps and excessive drinking,
between the loss of business and-- It was a low time.

When I went to work in '37, things were picking up,
and some of my father's older clients, like Union Hardware,
Ducommuns, and some of the industrial group, were starting

to build buildings. And so I had an opportunity in about 1938
to design those buildings, and they have been good buildings.
So that was my introduction to the design world. And the

responsibility. Responsibility came quickly to me because
during the war years, starting with '42, the old mainstays
of the firm — Norman Patten, Joe Longueville, Tom Gilbert —
left the firm and went to Alaska to work in the area of
central Canada and/or Alaska in designing bridges and camps
and things for Sverdrup and Parcel, who were contractors.
After the war they returned, but I was left alone without
technical staff, which created a very interesting thing when
we started getting work for the Corps of Engineers.
LASKEY: Well, it certainly must have created a challenge
for you.

MARTIN: Yes. And we built an organization — I did principally-
composed of men, other architects, Herman [Charles] Light,
Arthur Frolich, Gene Brokow, who were established architects
that had lost their practice and had been working in Las Vegas
on the [Hoover] Dam, which J. V. McNeil was building — I forget
the name of the dam, right out of Las Vegas. But those
fellows went up and designed the buildings, and then they
were looking for work and came, and we started to have work
for the Corps of Engineers. We built up a firm of maybe
thirty, thirty-five people. That's when we started to survive
again financially.

LASKEY: I was going to say, is that when you started to
restabilize the firm?
MARTIN: I would say so. From then on, during the war

and after the war, of course the big shopping center move-
ment came on the scene, tremendous industrial expansion
came; and we were one of the leading firms in shopping
centers. We designed the Lakewood Center, the first
integrated shopping center, and, oh, the Crenshaw May Company.
Most of this work was for May Company, and the company was
one of my father's oldest clients. So, in kind of a review,
the time between the early thirties clear on into the
middle forties was a time of difficulty — in survival in the
beginning and a difficulty in organization and rebuilding
in the end.

LASKEY: It sounds like there were scars and wounds during
that time, you know, and insecurities. Did it take long for
them to heal?
MARTIN: Uh —

LASKEY: How about your father, did he recover fairly easily?
MA-RTIN: My father was getting older about the time of the
war. And his influence was substantial in securing work.
He was a great friend of Del [E.j Webb's, and he had some
cronies in the school board; so his contacts — and since he
had been one of Del's closest friends on the West Coast
(as differentiated from Phoenix) --were very important in our
obtaining work [from] the corps. But the Corps of Engineers was
really our source. My father's ability to lead was diminishing
because of his age, and although he still was not that old at

the beginning of '40 — He died in 1959 or '60, I forget, at

the age of eighty-one; so in the forties he was sixty-one,

which doesn't sound old to me at all.

LASKEY: [laughter] He's just beginning!

MARTIN: So than as time went on his health was not too bad.

There were times when the drinking problem was serious, and

that was — I think you used the word scars . I'm sure the

scars were deep, even though today most of that has vanished

in my perception of my father, which is extremely respectful

and high at this point in time, and with all of the family.

So the so-called scars of embarrassing situations in the

family pretty much have gone now, and his attributes are far

above in the memory of everyone.

LASKEY: And his monuments.

MARTIN: His monuments, but principally his integrity and

his honesty. He was a dedicated person to his family,

dedicated (that was his most important thing), and those

attributes are the survival, as far as perception is concerned,

He was a very brilliant rnan, actually, in architectural

engineering, and as honest as the day is long, and that's

why he was a success.

LASKEY: That's probably why he survived too through the

difficult times.

MARTIN: I think so. His word was his bond, yes.

Bankruptcy was unheard of, and there were many reasons why

he should have been bankrupt, but it was dishonorable in those
days, whereas today people will go through bankruptcy just
to get rid of indebtedness, without thoughts of repaying it,
but not in those days,

LASKEY: I noticed, though, that during this period of time,
in 1931, you did the Cord Building, your father's firm did
it, which was certainly a great building.

MARTIN: Yes. The Cord Building at Wilshire and Mariposa
[Avenue] was the showroom and shops and storage for the
Auburn and the Cord automobiles, under the direction of
E, L. Cord, who in so many ways was a person that was ruthless
in the management of his funds and the entire financial
aspect of the v;hole construction process for the building.
I was the timekeeper on the building, working for Lynch-
Cannon, the contractor from Salt Lake, and it was at the
depth of the Depression. I'll never forget the day that
E. L. Cord cut the salary of the laborers from something
like thirty-seven cents an hour to around thirty-one, and we
had a strike on the job, and I can swear that if Mr. Cord
had walked on the job they would have killed him.
LASKEY: Really?

MARTIN: They were so desperate. Men were so desperate
that they would carry sacks of cement on their backs and
carry it to the mixer and would develop sores on their
back (which will not heal, cement sores just don't heal).

100

and there was many of them who were in that condition, as
I recall. So it was a very tense and difficult time, during
the Depression, for a lot of laborers. The building, of
course, turned out to be beautiful, and we to this day
continue to remodel it.

101

TAPE NUMBER: IV, SIDE TWO
MARCH 3, 19 81

LASKEY: There was another natural catastrophe in this time
of great catastrophes that I think influenced your work a
lot, and that was the 1933 earthquake at Long Beach.
MARTIN: That was in some ways, as disastrous as it was,
a blessing for not only architects and the contractors
but for the industry, because it reshaped their entire
engineering f ormulization of building construction. My father
was an important part of the development of new techniques,
particularly in regards to reinforced masonry construction.
This was natural to my father because he was such an outstanding
engineer in the management of reinforced concrete, which he
learned at the University of Illinois. The reconstruction of
the school system became an important part of the work that
caused our office to survive. It was great damage to schools,
and there ended up to be much rebuilding, but in some cases
replacement. There were several school bonds that made it
through for bond issues. This was really important work for
the architects and engineers of Los Angeles.

So that catastrophe of the Long Beach earthquake
resulted in new school work, in some cases some outstanding
designs related to improve planning techniques, like lighting;
never was there so much attention given to the importance of
lighting and specular glare and glare from the dome of the

102

sky and such things as that. The California schoolhouses
were formed and shaped to take advantage of daylight, with
skylights and other devices on the north side and with louvers
and long overhangs on the south side, with much more intensity
than we have today.

As a matter of fact, there was much more attention
given to the detailing of buildings in those days than we
give them today. So many things today are shop-fabricated
and inserted within our buildings as a completed matter.
If you think for a minute: the exterior walls, the windows,
the floor systems are all shop-fabricated and placed on the
building. But at the time I was educated, you invented all
these new forms, such as extruded aluminum frames for windov;s .
Those were invented by people like myself — that is, the actual
configuration of the section, with its matter of waterproofing
and matter of assembly. So it was common for us to design
special moldings of aluminum extrusions for such things as
show windows, window sections. And all of those came from
the architects. Today you buy them out of a catalog; there's
a great difference in the approach. But today's architecture
is more with the planning and the environment. in those days
the architecture dealt with the detailing of buildings and
the planning of buildings. It's an amazing difference.
LASKEY: How do you feel about that?
MARTIN: Well, I feel that the transition to more environmental

103

matters, given the whole space, is a magnificent movement.
I regret the loss of sensitivity in detailing very much.
And it's almost like the lost art of cabinetmakers: it's gone
and our young people don't really understand it, although
some of them do. I regret that, but, on the other hand,
when we think of architecture today we think of the total
role of environment for people, as distinguished from
buildings with historic reflections in the structure and
in the ornamentation of the buildings. That's almost a thing
of the past. But we have such wonderful new things evolving,
things such as spaces for public, rooftop parks; in the city
we have two- and three-level spaces for pedestrians, for
separating the people from the automobile. And this offers
some very exciting choices for urban living, and that's
what a city really is: it's a place of many choices for
people to live in, as contrasted with suburban living, which
has its merits but which are somewhat limited.

So I think the transition which has been so great
during my practice, from the beaux arts clear on through
to — For the last fifty years, we have had — We have gone
from the Depression, the elimination of the beaux arts, the
introduction of modern architecture, particularly from
Europe, the Dutch architects in the vicinity of Hilversum,
the Bauhaus, we've gone through a war, the reindustrialization,
the development of the suburban shopping center, the new town

104

planning, the great return to the urban core, the evolution
of large banking interests and all of the support facilities
for banking, the evolution of large government centers, with
all of their support, and at this point in time we are
continuing the redevelopment of the central cities at a
rapid pace and looking forward, long-range, to architecture
in space, which will happen.
LASKEY: Do you really think it will?

MARTIN: Oh, I think so, a certain kind, not lots of
people; but after all, next month we launch our first space
vehicle, you know, a vehicle that can return to Earth and
that will be just like a big truck going out in there, taking
with it things that will be permanently hooked up in space.
LASKEY: Two thousand and one isn't that far away.
tlARTIN: Not that far away. Where we'll have probably new
forms of energy, maybe related to laser fusion and other
forms of fusion that will provide power. So I think that
the twentieth century will provide some of the most advanced
steps in the history of man, when you think that we go from
the whole evolution of travel, from the horse and buggy to
travel in space, the evolution of architecture from brick
and mortar and classical adaptations into environmental
concerns wherein [we contain] the people and the functions
with [in] comfort-creating environments rather than building
buildings. It's a whole different concept when you contain

105

people in some kind of a form to do that function or create
that comfort in the environment, as building of brick and mortar
into classical forms [does]. It's a big difference, and that's
happened in the twentieth century. Of course in medicine and
science and computers and electronic devices--all of these
things have happened this century. So what comes next is
going to be a fascinating venture into the imagination. I
think it's gonna be related to a new form of personal commu-
nication.

LAS KEY : Well, there seems to be in architecture, at least
in the sort of post-modern architecture, a reversion back to
classical forms, much, much more modified, of course, but a
reaction against the Miesian boxes. I think of your own
building, the Security Pacific [World Headquarters], which
[David] Gebhard and [Robert] Winter have described as a return
to beaux arts .

MARTIN: It is. It is, and it contains some false elements
that bother me, even though it's a beautiful form. The
hollow columns on the outside to me represent a misuse of
contemporary materials.
LASKEY : Really?

MARTIN: As compared to ARCO [Atlantic Richfield Tower], which
is not that was at all. ARCO is a more honest building than
Security Pacific, in my estimation.
LASKEY: Really? Now, ARCO is almost pure Bauhaus .

106

MARTIN: It is, but the ARCO frame, the cladding of the frame,

of granite, the magnificent eight-foot-by-eight-foot window,

is perhaps the most organized design that we've ever participated

in. Security Pacific, as beautiful as it is as a design, with

its columnar classic proportion, contains those architectural

exaggerations, I believe, that were done to create a classical

form rather than to have a simple building assemblage. So

I really don't feel that good about the Security Pacific

design, as compared to the Bauhaus or even the new Wells

Fargo Building, which is pure modern stainless skin. I think

the purest form of all is the Department of Water and Power

[Building] .

LASKEY : I was about to ask you about that building.

MARTIN: I don't think there's any building in the city that

touches it for its elegance, which is the simple expression

of plates, of the floor plates, and the translucent wall,

and that's it. But it does a job next to its neighbors, with

the classic pavilions and the theaters, does a job of

creating a cohesion between all of those things.

LASKEY: How did you hit upon that design? You had, I assume,

to create something that blended with the Music Center [of Los

Angeles County], which I think was already built at that time.

MARTIN: Yes. It was in the process. Well, we felt strongly

that we had an obligation to design a building which would

not dominate the [Dorothy] Chandler Pavilion, which was

107

classical, like the Parthenon. Our solution of having a
translucent building with a very simple horizontal expression
of the floors gave a perfect complement to the classical
columns of the pavilion, and as you look at them today they
are companions of two different eras of design. But it was
the translucency and the simplicity of the horizontal plate
design, and the use of the building emanating from water was
pretty nice.
LASKEY: Beautiful.

MARTIN: So I think that the Department of Water and Power
is one of the best buildings that we've ever done.
LASKEY: Reyner Banham, I suppose you know, in his book
[Los Angeles : ] The Architecture of Four Ecologies, says it's
by far and away the best building in downtown Los Angeles,
the most perfect Southern California building. But how do
you feel about their not using the pools?

MARTIN: Oh, I feel badly that they don't use the pools and/or
the lights, because that building kind of is illuminated
indirectly; it's really one of the most pleasant urban
experiences that we have. The indirect lights were wasteful,
but the building lights themselves were a practical way of
heating the building. There is no boiler in that building
at all, and we heated the building with our lighting system,
which was a first time. We actually invented the lighting
fixtures, which are now standard, with the return air cooling

108

the balance of the lighting fixtures. And we invented the
partition system, which has proven to be a very flexible
partition, and it's now standard. So those things, like
many of the other things, many other details, emanated from
the creative thrust of architects that were in our own
office. A great many things have emanated from this office.
LAS KEY : Getting back to the fountains again: I was
wondering, in reading about the building, I had understood
that the fountains actually were part of the cooling system
of the building and that they were created as an energy-saving
device rather than an energy-wasting device.

MARTIN: They were, and they are. They replace part of the
water-cooling system for the air conditioning. It's a
water-spray idea, and so the cooling effect of the fountains
helps to reduce the temperature of the water. Now, we do
have induced draft coolers, water towers on the roof, also.
But the rationale and in fact the practical end of it, the
fountains were playing a role, not only aesthetically
speaking, but practically speaking.

LAS KEY : Just to get back a little bit to where we started
in the thirties: you were married in 1937, shortly right
after you got out of school. You also took a trip to Europe.
When was that?

MARTIN: Well, right after I graduated.
LASKEY: Right after.

109

MARTIN: A young man by the name of Marvin Summerf ie Id,
who was a college classmate, and myself went to Europe
to broaden our understanding of architecture and to partic-
ipate in the whole life of the Europeans, and that was a
very important thing in my life. This was still the depths
of the Depression. I had, through my early days of being
a paperboy, had saved $525, and that plus some more advanced
by my family--and I don't know where they got the money--paid
for my trip, which lasted five and a half months. Of course
we were poor-boying it all along, but we had a great time.
LASKEY: You could do that in Europe, I think, at that time.
MARTIN: Yes. Even though we bought a car in England on
a repurchase guarantee plan, but it didn't cost us a lot,
of course. Then things had to be getting better, because
when I came back across the United States I picked up a new
car for my family, so things were on the rise in 1935-37.
I think they had to do the work for the school board.
LASKEY: Now, had you met your wife in college?
MARTIN: I met her in my own home, because she was a sorority
sister of my sisters, who were Kappa Alpha Thetas. And so when
I returned from Europe I met her there, fell in love with
her, and proposed to her. Immediately after that she
went to Europe with the Harry [G.] Johansing family, and so
when she returned we sure enough did get married. It was
interes ting--we look back on it today--I was making $125 a month.

110

LASKEY : A month.

MARTIN: A month. And we were paying $42 for rent, and I want
you to know that we were broke all the time. [laughter] That
condition remained for at least five years; we never had
saved a penny. And the salaries didn't increase very much
either. But we did have an automobile; we were given an
automobile by my parents for our wedding anniversary. And
it really wasn't until after we got work during the wartime
that that condition changed, where we started-- I remember
my father, the firm made $30,000 one year profit, and I shared
in that with my dad a little bit. Of course later on it
changed completely. Our beginning years in married life were
frugal, for many years.
LASKEY: What is your wife's name?

MARTIN: Dorothy Dolde. She was born in Orlando, Florida.
Her mother [Virginia Dolde] died when Dorothy was two, and she
was then reared by her grandmother [Mrs.- Willie Young] in
Marshall, Missouri. Her mother had gone to St. Mary-of -the-Woods
[College] in Indiana, and then Dorothy did the same thing for
two years before she came out to USC.
LASKEY: How did she happen to come to USC?
MARTIN: Well, her father. Chuck Dolde, was a banker with
the Bank of America and operated the Wilshire-Robertson
branch, which was big in those days. Then he moved to
Whittier and worked in one of the local banks, after which

111

he formed his own small- town bank, and he formed several banks
before he died. But he was a Phi Psi and knew the people from
Kansas University. Kind of a spirited man, and so he knew
the local Phi Psis, and his daughter had to go to USC. So
as it happened — and I was a Kappa Alpha at 'SC--instead of
our sons being Kappa Alphas they all became Phi Psis.
[laughter]

LASKEY: Shows you where the influence is.
MARTIN: That's right.
LASKEY: OK, suppose we stop here for now.

SECOND PART (MARCH 18, 19 81)

LASKEY: Mr. Martin, you've said that it never occurred to

you not to be an architect. Did it ever occur to you not

to work for your father?

MARTIN: No, it never did occur to me to be employed by

somebody else or even to be employed on my own. There was

a strong attachment and great pride in not only my father

but the office. The office was considered a certain individual

entity in the minds of our family; everything was done for the

office, so to speak. Of course the office was the livelihood

of the family, and the office included the financial interest

of my mother, which was mentioned before.

112

Also, there was an attachment on my part to somewhat of
the survival of my father, not that I had anything to do
with his physical survival, but there was the need for taking
care of certain situations. That was felt on the part of the
older children in the family also. We'd drive for my father
when things were very low economically speaking. So once I
got into the first challenges of the management of certain
projects, I kept going into not only management but the
building of the firm as far as new employees were concerned.
And that happened during the war, where we had difficulty
in keeping our doors open and some of our staff went to
Canada and Alaska.

LASKEY: Was this because there was not an availability
of materials for building during the war?
MARTIN: No, it was not so much that, even though that
did exist; it was because the type of work was all war-related,
such as temporary hospitals, airstrips with hangars, office
buildings related to the operation of the airfields. We in
effect became hospital experts, probably the most important
hospital firm here, working for the Corps of Engineers.
They found that our work, which was done by architects
and engineers, had some advantages on the work that could be
done either by independent architects or civil engineers.
As I believe I've mentioned before, in the manual of the
Corps of Engineers the architect was connected with camouflage

113

and the engineer was the dominant figure. So as the work
proceeded, work of this nature proceeded, of course, the
civil engineers retained the architects to help them with
the contract. It was all kind of routine work, directed
by the Corps of Engineers. Very little new design work.
Once in a while there would be some.

But there were standards of the Corps of Engineers that
would set the nature of the buildings themselves, and let's
say the site planning of the whole project was a matter of
initiative. At that time I was doing such things as designing
engineering work, such as drainage ditches, and even drafting
on electrical work, because these were standards, and they
became involved in the distribution of water and drainage
problems. So all of that work was done right in the office
by people like myself, often with the assistance of some
consultants who were around the city. Later on after the
war it became very apparent to me that we expand our firm
to include mechanical and electrical engineers. My father
had always been a structural engineer. But we had difficulty
in getting our work done well by having and using consulting
engineers, and we just thought that maybe it would be better
if we started the process of having our own mechanical and
electrical engineers. Which we did.

LASKEY: Was that a direct outgrowth of your experiences with
the war, seeing that you could do it here and found out

114

it worked better?

MARTIN: I think it was because we found out it worked

better, at least in our minds. And it was easier to manage

if we knew that we could count on our own production. We

had always used consulting engineers, but we've always been

happy that we're a totally integrated firm of architects

and engineers.

LASKEY: I want to backtrack just a little, just to the

prewar period, which would be the late thirties, which is

the point at which you actually become active in the firm.

Is that right, you were out of school?

MARTIN: Yes, in 19 37.

LASKEY: Nineteen thirty-seven. You had mentioned, the

last time we talked, about your preference for a plain or

Bauhaus style or a simple form, and I was wondering--

At that time in Los Angeles, modernism was at its height,

it had sort of taken root here -with [Rudolph M.] Schindler,

[Richard] Neutra, and their followers, and I wonder if that

affected you at all, if you were impressed by what they had

done .

MARTIN: Well, I was very much impressed with what Frank

Lloyd Wright did. I was more aligned to the philosophy of the

evolution of architecture as practiced by Frank Lloyd Wright

than anybody. I recognized the work of Neutra and Schindler,

and to some extent appreciated it, but it didn't have, to me.

115

the warmth of Frank Lloyd Wright's work. Frank Lloyd Wright
was, of course, heavily influenced by [Louis] Sullivan and the
Chicago school, and I believe right to this day I have a
strong preference for a richer form of architecture. Not to
say that Neutra's work was cold, but it didn't possess the
organic quality that Frank Lloyd Wright's did, the sculptural
quality. So my response came from either Frank Lloyd Wright
or an architect in Hilversum, Holland by the name of
[Willem] Dudok. And I was very impressed with the work
that he was doing.

LASKEY : Now, did you see this when you took your trip abroad
and went to Holland?

MARTIN: Yes. When we went abroad I more or less followed
and looked forward to seeing the work of Dudok, who was,
I believe, a Dutch architect. Again, that form of design was
more related to Frank Lloyd Wright and some of those than it
was with the Bauhaus, the Bauhaus being very rigid. I
believe today my response is a little more in favor of the ■
richer, more sculptural architecture. Although I believe
that the ARCO project is strongly influenced by the plain,
sophisticated lines of the Bauhaus school, it still is a
granite building with columns from granite, quite a rich
design, and quite different than the Bauhaus might produce.
So there's no question in my mind that the evolution of
design in this office, as perhaps influenced by me to some

116

extent in the beginning, was more related to the movement
from the Chicago school.

LASKEY: And that would have been your father who v/as
influenced by that.

MARTIN: My father really was influenced by that: his work,
however, really didn't show very much of that. His work v/as
classic, which was ore-World's Fair of 1893. Because that's
when the revival of classicism took place: the new western
architecture was emerging, and the eastern seaboard
architecture, which was beaux arts, a beaux arts background,
was diminishing at the change of the century. So my father's
work, as exemplified by the Ventura County courthouse, even
the Higgins Building at Second and Main, was more related to
classic .

LASKEY: How much was he involved in the design of the Second
Church of Christ Scientist? I know he did the dome, speaking
of classic design.

MARTIN: Yes. I don't think he really designed all of that
church. I think he designed the dome, but I'm not certain
where the line was drawn. I should really investigate that,
because everything that he ever said about it was related
to the uniqueness of the structure of the dome, the single-
shelled dome, and that design doesn't look like his work,
although it's classic.
LASKEY: It is very classic.

117

MARTIN: So I really should find out about that, because I
don't know.

LASKEY: The reason I was asking about modernism, because
it brings us up to the May Company at Wilshire and Fairfax

[boulevards], which was an extremely modern building, and I
think one of the first that you did, or that A. C. Martin

[and Associates] did,

MARTIN: Yes, but the May Company Wilshire and the May Company
Crenshaw were conceived, as far as design was concerned, by
Samuel A. Marx from Chicago, who was Tom May's brother-in-law.
LASKEY: Really.

MARTIN: Yes, And there was an architect by the name of
Noel Flint and another one by the name of Charles Schonne,
who v/orked for Samuel Marx in Chicago and did some very
sensitive design work, I think some of the finest, including
the Buttery, a restaurant in Chicago, I believe — or New York,
I'm not sure--the Ambassador East, v/hich was the Pump Room,
including the apartment of Leigh Block, who was president of
Inland Steel [Company] in Chicago. Even though they did
many fine interiors, including the design of furniture,
Noel Flint was really the one that conceived that design of
the May Company Wilshire. We really took his preliminary
designs and developed the building from them.

The May Company Wilshire has something about it that you very
seldom see any more, which are statuary bronze canopy facings and

118

the bronze light coves above the show windows. They were

beautifully detailed, and they stand there today as elegant

designs. I think [it is] far superior to any other buildings

of that era in Los Angeles. It has become rather run-down,

of course. They even do not replace the gold mosaic on the

corner, which is gold-leaf flashed tile from Italy.

Beautiful design, but it has not been maintained. So May

Company Wilshire, the original May Company Wilshire, was

to the credit of Samuel A. Marx and Noel Flint, who was his

associate .

LASKEY: I'm really surprised, because I think the modern,

or that kind of modern, or the streamlined modern, as being

almost indicative of this area, of having come from here; I'm

surprised that it originated in Chicago.

MARTIN: Yes, it was really from the Chicago school. Nov;,

I'm not certain where these men were trained. But it was a

very modern building.

LASKEY: Very modern.

MARTIN: And it has, of course, classical proportions. There

are reflections of classical cornices all the way through

that building, for example. They've got a granite coping,

very subtle, but it's a transition between the beaux arts and

the modernism that was creeping in, as practiced by different

people,

LASKEY: What was the effect of that building in 19 39?

119

I think [that's when] it was built.

MARTIN: It was considered a very elegant building. I
think it did have an effect on the architecture of
Los Angeles; in fact I'm certain it did. The details and
the casework and layout of the May Company Wilshire was
of the finest quality. The second floor gown shop was with-
out match in the city. It was a very flamboyant design,
and I happened to detail it myself, but Noel Flint designed
it. It was, I think, a very notable and impressive kind of
a statement in the department store design.

LASKEY: But was there anything else around it at the time?
The Miracle Mile was just being developed, wasn't it? Were
there other buildings, or did it stand by itself?
MARTIN: No, it was standing alone. The Miracle Mile, some
of it was developed. The Prudential [Building] wasn't there
or of course Cal Fed [California Federal Savings], and none
of the other high-rise buildings, the museum--none of those
buildings were there at that time, and they were pretty
much out in the country. Also, from an engineering point
of view, we were pioneering. Because we opened up the earth
for the foundation, which we had designed as spread footings,
individual spread footings based upon the discovery of the
soil borings, and when we saw the nature of the soil, which
was mottled of different kinds of clay and different deposits
because of the tar pits at La Brea, we changed the design

120

of the foundation to what we call an inverted flat slab,
which in effect floated the building. The May Company was
the first building here that floated. Subsequent to that,
Prudential was built on a similar foundation, and most of
the buildings in there had this matt foundation. So there
was a lot of fine engineering in the May Company Wilshire,
and it was designed in our office.

LASKEY: Did you actually run into any tar when you were
laying the foundation?

MARTIN: VJe ran into some soils which had to have some
relationship to shale or oil shale or something like that,
but there was some white deposit in there. There was some
spring, like a hot spring, which didn't amount to much.
When we built the parking structure on the lot to the east
of it, we actually had to install pumps to pump the seepage.
Which is not unusual in building design, but it v/as related
to the tar pits.

121

TAPE NUMBER: V, SIDE ONE
MARCH 18, 19 81

LASKEY: Now, the parking structure for the May Company that
you're talking about, I believe you won an award for that
structure.

MARTIN: Yes. It was a first and a most interesting solution,
It's a three-level parking structure, built between tv;o
level streets, and we were desirous of eliminating the ramps,
because of the ease of women patrons to drive. So we con-
sidered raising the street and making a hill out of the
street: so you'd drive up the hill and turn right on into
the parking structure on whatever floor you were passing
as you drove up the hill. But Orange Grove Avenue was limi-
ted because of a reversionary type of provision in the lease
that existed between the May Company and the Hancock estate.
It was eventually owned by USC. This caused many complica-
tions if we wanted to consider closing Orange Grove. Which
we thought was a very good idea: to close Orange Grove,
because it was a one-block-long street. So instead of that
trouble we worked the building so that in effect the building
slopes instead of the street becoming a hill. We created
exactly the same ease of access by having the bottom level,
the lower level, approached from the end, the middle level
approached from Orange Grove at one of the low points on
the warped slab — warped like a boomerang in shape — and

122

the upper level was approached both from Orange Grove and
from Ogden [Drive] , But it won a first award from the
American Institute of Architects as a unique development
and a unique idea. It's a very successful parking structure.
So we've had a lot of history at Wilshire and Fairfax.
LASKEY: I think the history of Wilshire and Fairfax is
where the first gas station in the city of Los Angeles
ever existed. Is that right? Apparently the Gilmores,
when they discovered that they had oil on their property
rather than water for their cattle, put it in big barrels
and sold it by the gallon for people who were trying to get
to the beach and back, when cars first started very early
on. Fascinating corner.

So that brings us back up again to the war, and at
this point in about the mid-forties you become a partner
with your father, as does your brother [John Edward]. Now,
what had your brother been doing up to this time?
MARTIN: Well, my brother and my sister Carolyn both entered
the government service. Carolyn was in the Waves--not the
Waves, there was another [branch], segment of Coast Guard.
Spars. And my brother became a Seabee and was stationed in
Hawaii. I believe he was there at the time of the attack —
well, no, that couldn't be. He went there later, and then
was transferred to the Aleutians and was stationed on the
island of Tanaga, where he was with a group of Seabees that

123

went in and established this base. I guess it has some of
the most severe weather in the world. He also was stationed
at [Port] Hueneme when he first enlisted near Oxnard,
where he had some roots because of the family. So he
returned after the war to the office, and I did one thing
that has always impressed him and that is the day he
walked in I said, "You're my equal partner." And we've been
equal partners ever since. So that formed a bond between
the two of us, which has prevailed over many differences.
So it's been a long and successful partnership, really, and
whenever we had differences we would agree that the partner-
ship was more important than the difference, and that's one
reason why we've stood together. Also, it's really an
exemplification of the same kind of motivation that existed
when I first went with my father and never had any ideas of
working for anybody else; it was natural to be part of the
office.

LASKEY: And just for the record, your brother's name is?
MARTIN: John Edward.

LASKEY: John Edward, and you call him Ed.
MARTIN: It's the same name as my mother's father, John
Edward Borchard.

LASKEY: Now, his interest is slightly different than yours,
his background, I believe; he's not an architect.
MARTIN: Yes. He started out to become an architect, went

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to use, and preferred to follow into civil engineering.
And his work at USC and later on at the University of
Illinois, where he graduated, as did my father, was in
engineering, civil engineering. His life is more aligned
to civil engineering, and he is by license a civil engineer.
So again it's a continuance of the integration of engineering
with architecture. I mean, that's one reason why our firm
is strong in engineering.

LASKEY: Which has been one of the benefits of your firm.
MARTIN: I believe it to be a benefit, for one fundamental
reason: that all of architecture and all of design is the
embodiment of structure. It is not superficial, but when
it becomes superficial, as is found in "fagadism" or eclec-
ticism, it loses its quality, because it's not organically
honest. We've spoken somewhat of this subject, of the
honesty of architecture, which is a very big and important
thing in our firm today, as it always has been in my mind,
through my practice.

LASKEY: Now, again in the mid-forties, when your brother
came into the firm, you had been managing it for some time.
MARTIN: Yes.

LASKEY: Your father was still alive.

MARTIN: Dad was there, and he was active. He handled the
contracts, he handled the field supervision work, and he
was very close to our chief draftsman, Mr. Tom Gilbert, who

125

in effect was really the manager of the office, and perhaps,
other than my father, was the most important mainstay in the
office. Tom Gilbert was probably the best chief draftsman
who existed. He was a lifelong employee of my father. He
left the office for a fev/ years, went to Canada and Alaska,
worked on the Alcan project, which was a highway project
that went up through Canada to Alaska, built during the war.
He was building camps and bridges and things like that.
The office grew finally and slowly through the forties. We
did work for Ducommun and Union Hardware; we were very strong
in industrial-type architecture.
LASKEY: This was in the late forties?
MARTIN: And into the fifties.

LASKEY: In the fifties. Now, it was in the fifties that
you began your work v/ith shopping centers, I believe.
MARTIN: Yes.

LASKEY: Lakewood was 1959.

MARTIN: Yes, and we had of course designed May Company
Wilshire before the war. After the war we designed
May Company Crenshaw, and it was that project which illus-
trated a trend into the integrated shopping centers.
Because at May Company Crenshaw, which was right across the
street from the Broadway [department store] , there was an
attempt to be close to each other as competitors and gain
business from each other because of the proximity. The

126

Broadway store was part of a shopping center, with a tunnel
for deliveries. That's on the south side of Crenshaw
[Boulevard] and Santa Barbara [Avenue]. That project showed
the fallacy of the thesis that two stores — major, dominant
retail stores--should be across the street from each other
on a corner.

After that was completed, we did the May Company
Lakewood Shopping Center. And the May Company Lakewood
Shopping Center was one of the first fully integrated shop-
ping centers, with a tunnel for the distribution of goods
and with a mall fifty feet wide for pedestrian access to
the stores. Even though Broadway was kept out of the May
Company Lakewood by Tom May, the Broadway finally did go in
the vicinity of Lakewood, just to share the business. So
the Lakewood [Shopping] Center had May Company in the center
and dominant; it had Hiram's Market on one er.d and a second-
rate department store on the other end, with a lot of
specialty shops and a lot of shoe stores.
LASKEY: There always is. [laughter]

MARTIN: But it was May Company Crenshaw project, which
demonstrated the fallacy of building across from each other
on a major intersection. Everyone in the United States
knew that, and we knew it very clearly that this was v/rong ,
but it was the attitude of the merchants and not the attitude
of the architects, even though some architects on the eastern
seaboard — Skidmore, Owings and Merrill being one — were

127

starting to design the so-called integrated shopping center,
the suburban shopping center.

This was before [Victor] Gruen became prominent. At
that time Gruen was working here in Los Angeles, and he was
doing stores, because it was Gruen and Krummeck. [Elsie]
Krummeck was his wife, and they came from New York. He
became a member of the Southern California chapter of the
AIA; he was a very prominent storefront designer. Of course
Gruen became the leading architect for retailing shopping
centers in the United States and maybe the world. He
did it through his own abilities and promotion. Very strong.
He did some wonderful things. Now, May Company Lakewood,
which was a very successful shopping center, had the consul-
tation of Skidmore, Owings and Merrill, who were working in
our office on the concept. They were in the same kind of a
transitional period as we were, and they had done some things
on the eastern seaboard that were good. They didn't last
too long on the job because they really weren't contributing
that much it was felt. Not that they weren't perfectly
capable of it of course. Then as they departed from the
scene, we took over. We became very active in the whole
retail shopping center field. The suburban shopping center
movement was starting there, just as the expansion of the
suburban residential districts were flourishing.
LASKEY: Did they sort of create each other; that is, did

128

the suburban shopping center develop because of the sudden
increase in suburbia, the explosion in suburbia? Was it
something that was going to happen, or was it something that
had to be — I don't want to say forced, because it's a rather
strong word — but had to be proven?

MARTIN: That's a very interesting question, and my thoughts
would include many things. First of all, the downtown
businesses were diminishing. They were losing their impor-
tance, primarily because of conflict between the automobile
and the streetcars, which was one of the greater conflicts
in urban design. They had to abandon all the streetcars
finally to rearrange the lanes for automobiles to filter
through.

Also, it was the time of the expansion and start of the
freeway system, which was of course statewide and of grand
proportion, really big. And that movement of the new free-
ways without a question was the most important factor in the
whole urban development of all cities really, but of
Los Angeles in particular. The freeways subdivided the land,
the freeways were like the original crossroads out in the
country. And with this subdivision of the land came
identifiable districts, having to do even with civil
government, because for the first time there was a very
strong line of subdivision creating smaller units of land
between the freeways. Well, all of this was related to the

129

prominence of the automobile and the movement, the mobility,
of society. And that was related to the construction of vast
housing projects, endless housing projects, following out
with freeways. So it was a movement.

Now Lakewood Center, which perhaps has been the most
successful shopping center for the district, was planned by
the developers of the housing project. That was Ben Weingart,
Lou Boyer , and some others, who built eight thousand houses in
Lakewood all around the shopping center, then built the shopping
center. And that was one of the most intelligent business
arrangements you could imagine, because the market was there
for the stores to come in and be immediately successful.

So the evolution of the suburban shopping center was
really related to the automobile and the dire need for a
rapid kind of movement, especially in the California area,
where distances are great. It was quite a bit later that
Gruen built the first interior mall, and that was in the
eastern area, where the weather was bad, a very logical
development. And he did a great job on it of course.
LASKEY: That's a question I would ask you, and I was going
to a little later on, but we might as well talk about it
here. The open or closed mall in the Southern California
area. Do you have any feelings about that?

MARTIN: Well, I have strong feelings that the closed mall
is the way to go.

130

LASKEY: It really is, even here?

MARTIN: Yes, Primarily because all of the stores that are
participating collectively can have complete open storefronts,
air-conditioned and clean, without the dust, and complete
access by the pedestrians who are in the mall to the merchan-
dise. So it's like a gigantic department store with all
these specialty shops. There's no question in my mind that
that is the best system. You might recall that at one time
the open-air markets were the thing in Southern California;
they were almost invented here. The food and fruit markets
had great open storefronts.

LASKEY: I've seen pictures of it, and I've read about it,
but by the time I got here they were gone.

MARTIN: They were starting to be closed. Well, they were
closed for a very good reason: it was because of the weather.
And the uncleanliness . So the same thing was true of
shopping centers to some extent. But the real factor that
is important with the closing of the malls was (a) the weacher
and (b) the ability to open up the storefronts so that the
whole leased area of the tenants can be opened for the
pedestrians to flow in; it's a much stronger merchandising
plan.

LASKEY: What about energy, the conservation or use of
energy in a mall, a closed mall?

131

MARTIN: Well, of course, that's all so recent that it never
has been considered up to these last few years. Even nov/
there are still malls that are air-conditioned, with the
exception that a lot of outside air is being used through the
ventilation cycle. Yes, it takes more energy, except I will
say that the pattern of most merchants, if you have a shop
on the street or a shop on the mall that is not enclosed, is
to prop the door open and leave it open.
LASKEY: That's true.

MARTIN: So these early shops at Lakewood were losing all
of their air-conditioned air because the merchants would
prop the doors open to get the people in. So it shows you
that the mall should have been closed, really, in the first
place, because all that air was going out, that cool air was
going out into the warm air. So it certainly was the right
thing to have happened.

LASKEY: You also did Eastland Shopping Center within a
couple of years of Lakewood.

MARTIN: Yes. We followed on with Eastland, and being a
two-level shopping center, it was a very difficult problem,
because there were very few two-level shopping centers.
Most of them were one level at that time. So we designed a
two-level, with the lower level being a little different
type of merchandise. It was a step towards the contemporary
shopping center, which is now two levels, but the whole lower

132

level is just a lower class of merchandise. That two-level
shopping center at Eastland still used the interior truck
mall; all the merchandise was delivered into a tunnel at
Eastland. So on the lower level, stores were on one side
only, because it was a topographical change, and so the
tunnel was used for the upper stores, v/ith elevators, and had
direct access to the lower stores. So that was the days of
the tunnel. Now these days, shopping centers don't build
tunnels, and the reason for that is that it's too costly in
handling the merchandise, like .5 percent more. A food
market exists on 2, 2.5 percent of the in-gross, so it was
a huge cost for transporting merchandise from the truck,
across loading docks, up elevators, and things like that.
LASKEY: Do you marvel when you go out past Lakewood or
Eastland, at how large they've become, the areas, the shop-
ping areas?

I4ARTIN: They're huge, and they are, really, generally
reasonably successful. They have good food markets, because
the residential areas were built around them, or were built
first, with the shopping center inserted into the paved area.
LASKEY: I'm looking at my list here, and I see kind of an
interesting juxtaposition of structures that you, or your
firm, did the same year, in 1957, You built a home for
your sister and a men's detention facility,
MARTIN: Uh huh, yes.

133

LASKEY: You were very busy that year; they sound very
different. Did you actually design the house for your
sister yourself?

MARTIN: Oh, yes. Yes, I designed a series of houses.
Before that I designed a house for J. Watson Webb and one
for Higgins Sword out in the West Los Angeles area. And
to this day, one of my dearest friends is J. Watson Webb.
Watson is an interesting fellow, he's a bachelor, he's a
direct heir of the Vanderbilts. His mother was a Havemeyer ,
and he is now alone with his responsibilities, which include
the management of the Shelburne Museum in Vermont, probably
one of the greatest collections of Americana in the United
States. But our friendship exists to the point that today
we're adding on to an outhouse for J. Watson Webb, and his
house was built I think in '55, or something like that.

Then that experience led me into an interesting decision,
Watson asked me if I was interested in expanding the resi-
dential design practice. He and his friends were building
all over the world these large residences,
LASKEY: Individual residences as opposed to tract?
MARTIN: Individual residences; some of them, you know, like
the Vanderbilts, built large residences.
LASKEY: Yes, they did.

MARTIN: And I made a decision that I would not, that I
would stay with the commercial. But I remember very clearly

134

that was a decision, a purposeful decision, that I would
not follow that trend.
LASKEY: Were you tempted by it?

MARTIN: I was enjoying the residential work, because I was
quite good at it, I'd say. And that had to do with my
training, I believe, and my desire for small-scale consi-
derations. Then later on I did my sister's house, and then
I did my own home in Whittier, which was a very successful,
modern, very modern home, which we sold two and a half years
ago.

LASKEY: Oh, you did,

MARTIN: And moved to the beach. It was too large; it was
two acres of land and 6,000 square feet of house.
LASKEY: So you no longer live in Whittier?
MARTIN: No, I live in Long Beach, Alamitos Bay,
LASKEY: Do you miss all those years that you lived in
Whittier?

MARTIN: No, no, we don't miss it. We loved it, it did its
job, the people were great. We still go back to Whittier
to enjoy our friends. But the family is gone, and the house
and the yard were too large, just too much trouble. So I
was happy to reduce the scale of our living down to 3,000
feet, and on Alamitos Bay, and the boat is right out in
front in a slip, which has been a dedication in my life
ever since the early fifties.

135

LASKEY: Well, now the boat leads us into another subject,

of your interest —

MARTIN: Yes,

LASKEY: — in yachting, that you might want to talk about.

MARTIN: Well, we could talk about that any time. [laughter]

LASKEY: We'll talk about it now, since it's very important

to you,

MARTIN: I became interested in sailing really through my

friend Jack Axelson, Axelson was the heir of Axelson

Manufacturing Company, who built landing gear during the

war. They had a boat by the name of Jada, which is still

around. Dorothy and I went sailing with them one time, and

it was quite a thrill. So later on I bought a little

eighteen-foot sailboat and started racing and sailing; that

lead, eventually, to a thirty-eight-foot sailing boat, and

eventually to a forty-six, and now a fifty. And I have

done a lot of racing; I've raced to Honolulu nine times,

and Mazatlan probably six times, Acapulco , and a lot of

local racing around the islands. So I still race a bit; I

did race last November and did very well in the Mazatlan

race. In an old wooden boat,

LASKEY: I was going to say, how old is your boat, what's

it like?

MARTIN: Twenty years old. It's well-kept, a beautiful

boat.

136

LASKEY: They are beautiful.

MARTIN: And she's redesigned, and I've done a lot of things
with the boat. It's a different sail plan, a new mast, the
whole reconfiguration with lots of modern equipment. But
the boat is still a very important part of my life. I enjoy
it and I work on it myself, although I have some work done
by the professionals.
LASKEY: Is your wife a sailor?

MARTIN: Loves to cruise, loves to be on the boat after
cruising; the answer is probably no. She doesn't feel well
sailing. I used to sail a lot and be gone a lot on the
weekends because of sailing, which I don't think was very
positive at home, but I guess that's what I wanted to do and
I did it that way.

LASKEY: Did that influence where you moved, when you left
Whittier, that you had to be near the water?
MARTIN: I'm sure it did, yes.
LASKEY: Closer to the boat.

MARTIN: Oh yes, it definitely did. We found a place with
a slip and a very nice residential district.

LASKEY: Now, that's a large boat, fifty feet. Is it some-
thing that you can just go out for a cruise on a Saturday
afternoon, or do you need a crew?

MARTIN: You really need another person that can handle sail.
I can do it alone, but Dorothy wouldn't be comfortable, if

137

the two of us went out. As we have done that many times,
I've sailed alone, and I can. But it's quite a bit of boat
to bring in in case you're having trouble and have to sail
it into a slip so you're pretty busy.

LASKEY: When you sail, say, down to Mazatlan, what size
crew do you have?

MARTIN: A racing crew of eight people.
LASKEY: Eight people!

MARTIN: Two watches, three persons on a watch, plus a cook,
and then I as captain work between the watches. It's worked
quite well. . .■;

LASKEY: It sounds very important to you.

MARTIN: Oh yeah, it has been, because the thrill of these
long-distance races really is pretty great.
LASKEY: How about your children? Are they sailors, some
of them?

MARTIN: Well, the best sailor, I suppose, is the youngest
boy, Charlie, and he enjoyed sailing. They all sailed with
me, one way or the other. Charlie and David both sailed to
Honolulu with me. The boys have had other interests:
David in automobile racing, and Al in being around his home
(he has related to his family more) , and Charlie has been
always working on something like that, not aligned to
sailing. Today, David has a sailboat, a Hobie Cat.
LASKEY: Fast?

138

MARTIN: Yes, that's right. Speed, I'm sure that one's
life is influenced by such attractions, as you go in many
directions ,

139

TAPE NUMBER: V, SIDE TWO
APRIL 3, 1981

LASKEY: Well, today, Mr. Martin, we'll begin to talk on
the subject of the evolution of the reincarnation of down-
town [Los Angeles] , and I know that you have a great deal
to say about that because you've been instrumental in a lot
of what's happened,

MARTIN: The downtown area was dormant from the time of the
Great Depression of 1929 until the early sixties, which is
a period of thirty years, and the once vibrant business
center of Spring Street stayed level because of a whole
series of external movements that were taking place:
traffic congestion, the introduction of freeways, the
suburbanization. And the thesis of the FHA that every home
shall have a garage with a car in it and every pot a
chicken, as advocated by Franklin Delano Roosevelt, became
a way of life in California. There was movement. There
was a real surge of the need for cohesive arrangements of
government buildings. Because Los Angeles was destined to
become one of the great cities of the world, for all the
reasons that everyone knows about: the weather and the
access and the adjacency to the Pacific Rim.

The Civic Center emerged after long struggles of alter-
nate Civic Center plans, the most notable of which ran north
and south down Main Street, and various architectural groups

140

would express their ideas to the government officials of
the time, including my father, who was connected with some
of the explorations for how a new civic center should be
developed. It wasn't until a man by the name of
Arthur Will, Sr., came on the scene as the chief adminis-
trative officer of the county of Los Angeles that action
towards the adoption of a civic center plan took place. It
was Arthur Will, Sr., that put his shoulder to the wheel
and through his abilities caused the Civic Center to be as
it is today, which is running in an east-west direction.
And as everything evolved, this was parallel to the Hollywood
Freeway, which became the San Bernardino and Santa Ana
freeways and a major artery in the whole western part of
the United States. That freeway carries more traffic than
any freeway in the world. The Civic Center was paralleling
that as it evolved, and this in effect ran the Civic Center
up the old insurmountable Bunker Hill. So Bunker Hill was
not as high and mighty as it always seemed to be, because
in effect the Civic Center ran right over it.

The City Hall, of course, was established early, and
my father was one of the three architects — John Parkinson
and John Austin and Albert C. Martin. That tall, 450-foot-
high, twenty-eight-story building became the center of much
of the attention of the downtown, as well as the government,
area. So in effect it was the hub of the Civic Center, which

141

was branching out to the west,

LASKEY: At the time that City Hall was built, actually the

Civic Center could have gone either way — east and west,

north and south — and City Hall still would have been the

center.

MARTIN: Yes, that's right, and all those plans really

hinged upon the Civic Center as the hub of any kind of an

expansion. And today it really is, because the Civic Center

east, the east mall, and other future developments still

hinge upon the City Hall as its hub.

The construction of the Civic Center Mall in the east-
west direction led to some very important urban land move-
ments. First of all, that eliminated the idea of the
Civic Center running south down Main and Spring streets.
Also, the Hollywood Freeway and the Civic Center Mall formed
a very strong barrier on the north edge of the dov;ntown
area. The only things that would span across the freeway
and the mall were the ethnic developments which v;ere
historically located there in the first place, such as
Chinatown and El Pueblo, the founding place of the city of
Los Angeles. So the business building development, which
was always Spring Street in the last fifty years at least,
or last eighty years, and was stagnant until 1960, the
business building development had finally to expand because
of the postwar demand for new financial institutions, and

142

Los Angeles became the financial center of the West, on the
fringe of the great Pacific Rim, where trade was starting
to flow. Therefore, with the Harbor Freeway on the west
side of downtown Los Angeles, the Hollywood Freeway on the
north, with the Civic Center established flanking the
Hollywood Freeway, with Main Street wall-to-wall, thirteen-
story office buildings, the expansion really had to go to
the west. Important things happened, such as the lifting
of the limit height in companion with the requirement for
parking facilities for one car per 1,000 foot of building
improvement. That combination created a whole new concept
of buildings and open spaces. Requirements for business
houses tripled, they could now go up into the air; the
requirement for parking was a law. And the entire fabric of
the city started to open up, as is so well exemplified in
the new buildings that we have been privileged to work with
on the west side of the Biltmore Hotel and the library.
The Harbor Freeway on the west was pulling the expansion of
the business area to the west because it was the point of
access to the downtown area. Unlike the Civic Center on the
north, the industrial section on the east, an industrial
section of a smaller scale on the south, the west was open
for expansion, and this was the direction of most of the
business residences in any case,

A strange thing also happened in the evolution of the

143

planning of the downtown area. The new Community Redevelop-
ment Agency [CRA] created the Bunker Hill Project, This
included a huge lot of acreage just south of the Civic Center
Mall, running in effect from Hill Street to the Harbor
Freeway. The Bunker Hill Project stripped off many of the
old historic buildings (residences that were on Bunker Hill) ,
recontoured the land, and offered it for sale to a community
that wasn't expanding at that time. As mentioned,
Los Angeles was stagnant from the Depression until the
sixties .

LASKEY: Now the CRA, I think, took over Bunker Hill in the
fifties. They actually started around about '56, '57 —
MARTIN: I think so.
LASKEY: — to flatten the land,

MARTIN: Yes. So in effect Los Angeles had at that time a
great excess of land available, which at that time seemed
to be in the wrong place. As time has shown, however, it
was a well-conceived plan and is now in the process of final
commitment, with some substantial development already in
place. However, with the need for expansion of the dov/ntown
area, and the barriers to the north, the Spring Street wall-
to-wall buildings on the east, the expansion started first
going to the west, out Sixth Street and out Fifth Street,
which was the southern boundary of the Bunker Hill area.
The high-rise development came because the ordinance lifted

144

the limit height, and our firm was selected as an associate
firm with [Wally] Harrison and [Max] Abraraovitz from
New York, who were the architects for Galbreath-Ruf f in.
New York developers. The developers were Galbreath and
Ruffin, and the owner of the insurance company was
Connecticut General. We together designed the first high-
rise, other than the UCB [United California Bank] building
which was built at Sixth and Spring in an endeavor to anchor
Spring Street. It went eighteen stories or so. The
Connecticut General Building, which is now Union Bank Square,
was the first forty-two-story building constructed and was
the first example of the use of earthquake-resistant struc-
tures resolved by the process of dynamic analysis, which
was developed by our engineers in conjunction with a very
outstanding San Francisco structural engineer by the name
of John Bloom. It was then that Albert C. Martin and
Associates learned the techniques and started a very impor-
tant development: computer analysis for earthquake movements
and their resolution. Undoubtedly the most advanced
engineering accomplishment of the time. With the help of
[George W.] Housner, [Charles F.] Richter, and some of the
professors from Berkeley, this team evolved a new technique
by the use of computers. ■

LASKEY: What does it do? Can you describe it in layman
terms?

145

MARTIN: Yes, It analyzes the characteristics of each and
every member of a frame in a building, and if you think of
the frame of the building as a birdcage, with all the
strength on the outside, and if you think of that frame
being subjected to movements of an earthquake at the ground
level, which have very erratic characteristics, strong
accelerations of perhaps one to two feet in one direction and
then erratic movements the other way and even lifting as
much as nine inches, you then can see what a stress that
places onto a frame. Now formerly the frames were designed
principally for static vertical loads, and then after the
earthquake of '33, Long Beach earthquake, an application of
lateral movements caused by earthquakes was required for
these frames. This again had the characteristic of being
a static lateral movemet. The real performance, however,
of earthquake forces causes dynamic responses all through
the frame. The jerking — and I'll use the lay term--of the
ground movements causes an array of forces to be distributed
up through the columns and into the beams, which are so
great that the normal static stresses in beams and columns
are even reversed to where the compression end of a beam
may be on the bottom flange instead of the top flange. And
all of the calculations that had been assumed through the
static process start to be affected. One can visualize
that with a reversal of stresses in the members of the frame

146

that the joints where beams meet columns and the nature of
the beam and column itself are considerably different.

The dynamic analysis computer program that was developed,
or refined, in this office very clearly showed the condition
in each and every member of the frame, as these earthquake
movements were applied in the computer to the frame, and
by trial and error the frame was, through the computer,
redesigned until the optimum condition of size to resist
shearing action or bending action was found. That of course
changed the whole system of design of frames and put it into
a highly sophisticated process for, not only the design, but
the fabrication of the steel. If you think for a minute,
that the development of the aircraft industry probably was
the leader in such stresses, because airplane wings were
subjected to these kinds of bending and waving actions, and
the scientists and engineers of the aircraft industry
developed these computer techniques that did this. That
was at the time of the construction of this Connecticut
General Building, now Union Bank Square, that our engineers
learned from that process and advanced the state of the art
into what it is today. I believe that was one of the most
important design attainments that any firm had reached for
a long time.

LASKEY: Did that design movement have any direct relation to
the lifting of the height limits in the city of Los Angeles?

147

MARTIN: I don't believe so. Although there is a relation-
ship of most all influences, such as technical advances, to
all urban planning requirements. If you think of what it
is that causes a configuration or a result in urban planning,
you would have to include social influences, technical
influences and advances, and business influences. But,
in any case, this Connecticut General Building was built
forty-two stories high; it was a very sophisticated design,
it was at the west side of the Bunker Hill Community
Redevelopment Project.

LASKEY: Well, we're sitting on the nineteenth floor of
that building right now.
MARTIN: Yes.

LASKEY: What would happen if an earthquake--getting back
to the point you were talking about--if an earthquake, say
the magnitude of the 1971 earthquake, were to hit, would we
be — ?

MARTIN: I'm glad you asked, because in the Sylmar earth-
quake, 1971, this building contained two accelerometers , as
required by law. These were to record the movement of
earthquakes at that particular spot in the building. One
of those was defective, but the other, wherever it is
located, was not. It recorded the exact movement of this
building from that quake. And a very strange thing happened.

148

The Sylmar earthquake, which took place in a valley in that
area, was a quake that caused an alluvial deposit at the
bottom of this valley to act like a bowl of jelly, and the
alluvial sand and earth structure really shook like jelly
and caused tremendous damage. That bowl was bounded by rock
structure. Now that quake, however, had reflection that
came through the whole district and strongly towards the
downtown area, which has a substructure of blue clay, very
thick, and all these big buildings are resting on this clay
structure, which is an outstanding foundation material.

But the wave action of that particular quake, as it
came south and hit this high-rise building, strangely caused
a harmonic reaction between the wave periods and the building
period, to the point that the resultant effect on this
building from an earthquake that might have been something
like 5.5 or 6.0 on the Richter scale reached a harmonic
intensity of something like 7.0 or over, which is a much
more severe earthquake. This building performed exactly as
it was designed, and the movements of this building, as
shown in computer readouts from that earthquake, matched
exactly the curves that were represented on the accelerometer
which is in place. This proved, in a practical sense, the
validity of the design and the theory that was employed and
adapted for all of these dynamic analyses techniques. The
process is now in existence here in the city as a standard.

149

LASKEY : So when you're talking about the skeleton of a

building these days, you're really talking about a skeleton

almost like a human skeleton, that moves and adjusts and is

no longer a thing that is static.

MARTIN: Yes, it is not static, it is not rigid, it is

flexible. That's of course the secret to an airplane wing

and a building and, for that matter, the granite slabs of

the ARCO project and the Security Pacific project; all float

separately, unto themselves, with compressible joints around

the perimeter, so that they can work in their same little

orbit. They can work in their own orbit in the pattern of

the fabric of the whole wall as the building moves. In the

Sylmar earthquake we had no cracking whatsoever in ARCO

and no damage to the exterior of this building. We had

plaster cracking around the interior shafts because the

plaster is rigid and no provisions were made to try to put

flexible joints in the plaster walls. That we believe to

be a secondary kind of a result.

LASKEY: Now, all these are techniques that you worked out,

not you specifically, but your office worked out.

MARTIN: These are techniques that we were leading in, the

application of them, the creation of the formulas, the

computer programs, and we have a proprietary computer program

today that is probably better than that which is required under

the law. It has been modified and, let's say, taken by former

employees of ours who are now in the business of dynamic analysis,

150

something which you cannot possibly retain unto yourself.

LASKEY: Nor would you want to really.

MARTIN: And we don't really try to; we try to teach the

whole industry, the whole profession, what our findings are.

LASKEY: So you feel very secure, then, with your high-rise

buildings in an earthquake situation.

MARTIN: Yes, yes, and I'm not sure that I mentioned it,

but when we did the fifty-five-story Security Pacific Building,

we were retained to shake that building to the point of

extending beyond the elastic limit of steel, and to find out

what happens, theoretically, if you have an earthquake of

such great intensity that the elastic limit of steel is

exceeded and all the members start to bend instead of

springing back in their original place.

So we shook the building up to the 8.0 measurement on
the Richter scale, which is a most intense earthquake — this
is all being done in the computer--and nothing happened.
The members of the steel frame started to bend — they absorb
a great amount of energy when that happens, they don't
spring, they just settle in — and the whole design just
settled in and didn't go anyplace. In other words, this
is countered, this is a counterthought to a building falling
over, which some people might imagine. So we have proven
it in the computer experience on that building, which is
the only time it's ever been done, to our knowledge, and of

151

course with that knowledge we feel secure in our ability to
make very good buildings. Very advanced.

One thing that you might be interested in: when we
were retained to study the ARCO, which are now twin towers,
we looked at several other designs, one of them a seventy-
five-story building and another one a single high-rise tower
with a low bank building of six or eight stories. Our
recommendation was to go to the twin identical towers. The
reason for it was that we felt that the large building would
be kind of a dominant insult to the rest of the fabric of
the city — much as the John Hancock Building is in Chicago
{it's overbearing, it is not a graceful neighbor) — and
we felt that the twin identical towers, black, reflective
of each other, would be very acceptable companions to the
rest of the development of the urban center. Which they
have proven to be, they're very acceptable. And one has to
recall the psychological fact that if you have two parallel
white objects like buildings, they oppose each other, and
the tendency visually, psychologically, is for them to go
outward, whereas two black reflective shiny companions,
identical, tend to be cohesive and complement each other
and reflect into each other and so forth. They become a
single entity and a smaller concept, and that's what we did
to the ARCO Towers.
LASKEY: What did ARCO think?

152

MARTIN: They accepted the resolution and the recommendation.
They felt very good about it, and they do today. The ARCO
Towers really have qualities that are unique because of the
twin characteristics, and the reflectivity and the black,
dark green essence of the stone bring them into a very, very
happy type of development. Now, they are severe in design,
utterly simple, highly detailed, and probably one of the
best designs that is existing. I can say that about other
buildings also, but since the ARCO/B of A Towers are of that
nature and a little unusual —

LASKEY: Well, I think what's unusual about it, too — several
things — is how you got the granite.

MARTIN: Yes. It was mined in Canada, shipped to Italy.
It was cut into one-inch slabs in Italy, and that's the only
place in the world that had saws that could do that, and
still is, and then shipped to Los Angeles, taken to a yard
which casts concrete, and we cast a sandwich of concrete on
the back of those slabs, including anchors and stainless
steel butterfly wire anchors into the granite. And the stones
in their composite essence are well attached to the frame
and do act with enough mass so that they take their own
place in an earthquake. There is somewhat of a danger with
thin slabs, paper-thin, so to speak; they crack like glass
would crack if you had a load applied to one little part of
it. So the mass of the composite stone of the ARCO Tower
has worked very well.

153

LASKEY: And the wall, the retaining wall on Figueroa [Street],

is a beautiful wall.

MARTIN: We did borrow the inspiration, as I guess most

everything we do, from the Greeks and the Romans, and the

rustication of that granite is of course historic in nature.

It's an evolution between the rustic nature of the ground

and the polished nature of the material up above the ground.

And I think the rustication, with its ivy creeping over it,

is really very beautiful.

LASKEY: So we will pick this up next time and start with —

MARTIN: Yeah, sure, there's a lot of things like that that

are just very exciting.

LASKEY: Well, they're very exciting buildings. I think

people don't look at them closely enough.

MARTIN: Well, they don't really understand, and I can

understand that. The evolution — Another example of the

ARCO design was the decision to put the plaza at the Flower

Street level, as counter to the plaza being at the Figueroa

Street level,

LASKEY: Would it have been possible to put it at Figueroa

Street?

MARTIN: Yes. If we had put it at Figueroa Street then we

would have had a landscaped bank along Flower Street, like

twelve, fifteen feet high, that's how much difference.

154

LASKEY: You would have actually built up the area there?
MARTIN: We would have built up the plaza so that there
would be a bank on the west side of Flower Street. Now,
that wasn't a bad scheme, because there is a small bank
over at the library across the street, and you could have
put a bridge across the street from that plaza going east,
and that would have been a good pedestrian scheme. The
decision to put the plaza at the Flower Street level was
primarily influenced by the Bank of America, who wanted the
pedestrians of Sixth and Flower to be able to walk right
into the bank. That seems silly, but that was the motiva-
tion of the old idea that their business hinged upon people
walking through their front door. That was actually expressed,
LASKEY: That's rather interesting, because Los Angeles has
a history of people not walking anywhere, front doors being
really more traditional, something like that.
MARTIN: Right. It's a traditional idea. But that was a
strong influence. I'm not saying that the present scheme
is secondary to the other, but we strongly considered putting
the plaza at the Figueroa Street level, and it would have
worked well in the whole urban design. But now, you see,
the new Wells Fargo Plaza is at the street level too, whereas
eventually the people, we hope, will be once up at the plaza
level, or the raised level, like the Union Bank Building —
You see, we designed the Union Bank Building with the ground

155

floor at the level of the pedestrian system of the future.
So [when] you walk out of the ground floor of the Union
Bank Building, you walk straight across a bridge over to the
hotel,

LASKEY: And then straight across the bridge over to the
World Trade Center, and then over to the Bunker Hill Towers.
MARTIN: That's right.
LASKEY: Which is just wonderful.

MARTIN: And there will be a bridge straight over to Wells
Fargo, and we put a bridge over to ARCO Plaza, but we had to
go down to the plaza level by an escalator. That is the
edge of the pedestrian system of the Bunker Hill redevelop-
ment project, as we go down to the plaza level of the ARCO
Towers. And those things are very obvious if you think
about them.

LASKEY: Well, if you think about — and we can discuss next
time or maybe the time after that — the bridges, I think you
could talk about the bridge you wanted from the Music Center
to the Civic Center Mall.

MARTIN: I think that would be one of the grandest projects
the city will ever realize, and I think they will realize
it. I'm still trying to have it officially adopted as part
of the Civic Center master plan, and I think we'll win.
LASKEY: I hope so.
MARTIN: I think it will make it. That would be a

156

sensational thing, probably one of the most sensational
places in the city, if we could extend the plaza at the
cultural center across Grand [Avenue] and have it descend
down to the level of the plaza between the courts buildings,
which is a lovely plaza in there, and have a continuity of
it in the east-west direction for the pedestrians traversing
the mall. Right now you stop at every street, which is silly.
LASKEY: Oh, it is, it really is. It needs crossing. I
think at one time they were considering making Broadway a
pedestrian mall, and if that ever happened, we could walk
from here to South Broadway and up South Broadway without
ever crossing a street.

MARTIN: The pedestrian system will come. It's slow, but
it will come. Maybe one of the most exciting parts of that
[system] will be the new retail mall that is hopefully
planned between Seventh and Eighth streets and the south
side of Seventh Street. It will be an elevated retail mall,
just like contemporary shopping centers, running from
Figueroa, which will be where Bullock's is, clear on through
to the other side of Robinson's, and that would be one of
the greatest retail developments you can imagine, and that's
at the level of the pedestrian system. And the People
Mover — that's one reason I have been so strong for the People
Mover is that it would be a link for pedestrians, pedestrians
that want to go to the Civic Center, you know, or to

157

peripheral parking structures.

LASKEY: The Whole area is so potentially fascinating,
MARTIN: Fabulous, it's fabulous. I don't know what is
going to develop on the library. I've been reading about
the library this morning, this proposal to tear the library
down, you know, and we're advocating that the library stay.
I'm trying to develop a scheme that would be a compromise,
perhaps, but would keep the library, and some people and
myself are trying to find a donor to take over the library
as a museum. That would be magnificent. We have some
possibilities, and to operate it through time. It would be
one of the greatest things the city could have. And then
to build a new library either to the east side of that site
or some other place.

LASKEY: I think nobody's questioning that we need a new
library .

MARTIN: Oh, no.

LASKEY: It's just a matter of saving one of our few land-
mark structures is the problem at hand, and that happens to
be sitting on an incredibly valuable piece of property.
MARTIN: Yeah, but it's valuable not only from a commercial
point of view, but it's valuable to the people as an open
space, and the latter is more important than the dollars,
by far. It's like getting Main Street out of the middle of
El Pueblo; El Pueblo should not have that.

158

TAPE NUMBER: VI, SIDE ONE
APRIL 22, 1981

LASKEY: Well, we'll continue talking about the library
and your involvement and your feelings about it, your
reservations .

MARTIN: OK. We have discussed the evolution of the down-
town— I should say evolution and revitalization of the
downtown area-- and we have discussed the importance of urban
plans which include large open spaces between buildings and
how these have been managed. Perhaps key in the overall
downtown urban plan is the large plot of land that the
Central Library occupies, located between Fifth and Sixth
and Flower [streets] and Grand [Avenue], The Los Angeles
Central Library has for years been obsolete from the stand-
point of being a practical library. They tell me it contains
some magnificent collections. It also has become obsolete
in some of its physical characteristics related to fire and
safety and earthquake, and it is estimated at the present
time that to correct these would take some $14 million of
reconstruction.

LASKEY: But, specifically what would they have to do?
MARTIN: Well, they would have to create fire separations
in some of the areas that are like open stacks. They
would have to renovate the whole electrical distribution

159

system as well as the heating, ventilating, and air condi-
tioning. I suspect that the structural work required to
resist earthquakes would be manageable, but we have never
made a detailed examination as a firm. Important to our
client ARCO, which borders this site on the west side, is
the restoration of the open space between the library and
Flower Street,

LASKEY: Oh, where the gardens used to be and what is now
a parking lot.

MARTIN: Where there was an original configuration of a
fountain, a cascading fountain and gardens. And we as a
firm have prepared for ARCO (at our expense, incidentally)
some very interesting sketches of how it used to be; so
that we now have a representation, even though there are photo-
graphs, a representation in a beautiful pencil sketch by Joe
[Joseph L.] Amestoy of this garden. Today, even as of yester-
day, I visited with Bob [Robert 0.] Anderson, who is chairman of
the board, and Rod Rood, and we discussed the garden and a
new idea that ARCO is pushing, somewhat at my suggestion,
although we try to stay in the background when somebody
picks up an idea and wants to take the initiative, especially
a client.

The idea at the present time, which is enthusing
Bob Anderson and Ed [Edward W.] Carter, who has been brought
in by Bob Anderson, is to ask the [J. Paul] Getty Museum,

160

the Getty Foundation, to take over the library and reconstruct
it into the form of an early American ethnic museum and to
operate it in perpetuity. The people connected with the
Getty Museum, or Getty Foundation, are friendly, but most
encouraging is the newly retained services of Harold [M.]
Williams, formerly the secretary of the Securities and
Exchange Commission under the Carter administration and
formerly the dean of the school of business at UCLA. Harold
is very friendly personally to these people. So, in some-
what of a cautious way we are marking time until the
proposition can be made by Bob Anderson and Ed Carter that
this be done. If that happens it solves one element of the
problem of getting a new library.

Now to describe the overall problem of the library, it
might be well to go back into recent history a little bit
and discuss some of the things that have happened in the
last few years. The American Institute of Architects,
Southern California chapter, took a hard position, after
doing a great deal of research, that the library should be
preserved. Charles Luckman, who has been friendly to
Gilbert [W, ] Lindsay, the councilman of the great ninth
district, has for years been promoting a modification to
the library which would add the required space and parking
and, however, would change the design and configuration of
the library drastically. The American Institute of Architects

161

sued the city several years ago for not performing the
environmental impact report properly.
LASKEY: That was the Luckman plan?

MARTIN: On a plan which was developed by Charles Luckman
and Associates, And [it] delayed any action on the part of
the city council. It was at that time that I personally
felt so strongly about the emasculation of the original
design of the library.

LASKEY: Could you discuss, could you describe, what the
plan actually would have done to the building?
MARTIN: The building is approximately 250,000 square feet
gross in area. The building is of a square configuration
with a central tower with a pyramid-shaped tile cap to the
tower. In order to gain the required space for the expan-
sion of the library, Charles Luckman proposed the construction
of a two-story large, massive building to be built on the
west side between Flower and the library, with huge wings
that may be three stories high flanking it on the north side
of the property as well as the south side. Also, on the east
park, there was a large construction proposed as well as a
very deep excavation for parking. I knew that such a
modification of the original configuration of the building
would absolutely destroy the building; for one thing, the
pedestrians couldn't even see it, could not see it at all,
and another thing is that the scheme which was estimated by

162

Luckman to be $30 million would actually have cost about
$60 [million] , I knew that, and it was the basis of that
misrepresentation that caused me to make a political issue
out of this and a debate on the council floor with my good
friend Gilbert Lindsay, the councilman; I won the support
of the council, even though this was his district. This
was a great victory, but it left me in a very difficult
position with Mr. Lindsay. All of this has since been cured,
and Mr. Lindsay is one of my dear friends, I don't think
Mr. Luckman [laughter] feels very good about it. Although
we really are fair friends even with all these bitter
experiences .

Now, several years later, in desperation, the city
through the initiative of the library commission, has
recommended that the city go out to the public with a request
for proposal (an RFP) to provide the city with a new library
on some other site in the downtown area in exchange for the
land, which is one of the most important pieces of land.
The city, in their RFP, which is in the draft form only today
and not officially issued, suggests that there may be alter-
native schemes which would leave the library intact and with
some other possible use of the land for the construction of
offices or income-producing improvements that would allow a
developer to buy the land, which is rumored to be valued at
$250 a foot, producing some $40 million. This RFP today
has been stopped by the request of people like ARCO and a

163

conservancy group that is working on the side, so that the
conservancy-minded people and those that are against this
procedure have a chance to organize and prepare for the
creation of alternatives. We are currently in the process
of doing that.

From the standpoint of our firm, David and myself (who
are both against the destruction of the library or, more
importantly, the loss of the west park as an open space)
have prepared a very exciting solution which would be based
upon the creation of the existing library into a museum as
described, hopefully sponsored and operated by an outside
private source; and the use of the easterly side, eastern
part, for the construction of a very low profile library
which would extend in a north-south direction from the
Mayflower Hotel across the east park and across Fifth Street
to connect up with the property to the north of Fifth Street.

This would be a very unusual urban plan, but what it
would do, it v/ould give an opportunity for the reorganiza-
tion of all the properties on the north side of Fifth Street
lying between Grand and Hope and the movement of Hope Street —
which now ramps down to the corner of Fifth and Grand, with
a very bad traffic situation — to the north about 300 or 400
feet, which would greatly improve the traffic and give an
opportunity for the properties that lie north of Fifth Street
to be collectively organized into one large site. This would

164

in effect be a great urban plan and would allow another
major structure to be flanking this great open area which
the library creates ,

We have built a model of this, we have produced it on
film and have presented the idea to several people as of
this reading. It's a great idea, considered by 'Ar , Anderson
as being a very exciting idea, and I'm about to present it
to Ed [Edward] Helfeld, head of the CRA [Community
Redevelopment Agency] , Which, hopefully, will be such a
good idea that the combination of the Getty grant of the
museum, which is the existing library, plus this new urban
plan of the land surrounding the library site, would be so
sensational that we somehow could cause it to be constructed.
I don't know what the future will bring, but this is another
idea in trying to remold the character of the central city.
LASKEY: The structures that would be north of Fifth Street,
like there's the [Southern California] Edison [Company]
Building there and there are the Engstrom Apartments and I
think there are parking lots behind that, would those
buildings remain or are you talking about removing the
buildings and building a whole new complex in that block?
MARTIN: I'm talking about removing the Edison Building, the
Engstrom Apartments, and the parking structure which lies to
the west of the Engstrom, Now the ownership of these
properties is in the hands of people who are our clients.

165

The parking structure on the west is Rockefeller [Realty-
Corporation] , the Engstrom Apartments is John Cushman [III]
and Rob [Robert] Maguire [III], who has just teamed up with
John, and the Edison Company is owned by someone that has
it as an investment. Now this scheme, which would move
that ramped street, the terminus of Hope Street, to the
north of a new building, would create a new site with a
Fifth Street frontage and an address that those properties
do not now have. And it would create one of the most
spectacular sites for a major structure in the city.
LASKEY: There's a large retaining wall there now and a
stairway. Would you remove those? Would you bring it down
to sidewalk level?

MARTIN: We would bring a portion of it down to the street
and create a plaza, landscaped. And then we would have a
portion of it at the Hope Street level, which is up about
fifty feet. So that the whole pedestrain action which we
have created in the design of the Wells Fargo Building on
its east side, that whole pedestrian action would now start
to be organized and hooked up with the top level of the
library which spans Fifth Street, which would be another
park. So that the whole pedestrian movement from upper
Bunker Hill to lower Fifth and lower Flower would be managed
in a spectacular kind of an arrangement, with escalators
and trees and parks and so forth. It would be a very
beautiful scheme.

166

LASKEY: How would you get from across Fifth Street, how

would you connect to the library?

MARTIN: Well, the library building itself would span Fifth

Street, up in the air. The library design would be a

series of terraces, landscaped terraces, so its very low

profile —

LASKEY: Now this is the building you're suggesting putting

in on the east of the--

MARTIN: Yes, that's right, I'll show you a model which we

have right out here now. It's a great idea, and so v/e're

in the process of pushing it. As I said, what the future

will bring at this moment in time I don't know,

LASKEY: It certainly is one of the more reasonable proposals

MARTIN: It would be an exciting proposal.

LASKEY: Have you talked to the [Los Angeles] Conservancy

about it?

MARTIN: Well, yes. I'm kind of on the fringes of that

committee and a new committee being formed to move ahead

with the conservancy under John Welborne's leadership. Yes,

they're tuned in to what we're doing. They will take the

position that they want nothing to disturb the parks of the

library site. My proposition is to preserve the west park

and build the library addition floating over the east park.

So that the public would still have an open space, but it

167

would be part of the library planning, and visually, hov/ever,
you could penetrate the space which is now a park.
LASKEY: The parking, I assume, would then be in the new
structure that would be —

MARTIN: The parking would be below Fifth Street and below
the new structure, in a huge parking structure which would
extend all the way north to the north side of those proper-
ties that I have just described. It would hold 3,500 cars.
So, that's the current status of the library, which has
been under consideration for so many years, and it's a
choice piece of property and everybody's trying to get it.
LASKEY: We'll have to go back to that again, especially in
these days of economic sort of confusion and fear. If
Getty were to take over and create a new museum, would they
buy the property? or would the city continue to own the
property?

MARTIN: I'm certain that the city would continue to ov;n
the property. My guess would be that they would pay for
the reconstruction of the library into a museum and would
have a contract to operate the museum, and, of course, presum-
ably the museum would be named after [j. Paul] Getty.
Bob Anderson, who is promoting the idea now, is thinking of
early American Natives and the movement of several collections,
like the one in the Southwest Museum, down to this location,
which would offer a much more public participation.

168

and movement of several other early American museum
collections on in. I suggested to him that I knew of a
collection in Mexico City that is in storage, a lot of
which pertains to Southern California, and so you can see
the possibilities of making this an international museum
with iMexico and the United States participating, which is
much needed at this present moment in time. We really need
to get a coalescence of the thinking, and Los Angeles is
the place to coalesce Mexico and the United States.
LASKEY: How will you begin to get this program across to
the people that need to — ?

MARTIN: Well, we have produced so far this model and a
videotape and plans, and the next thing that I'm going to
do is to present that to the Community Redevelopment Agency
staff, David and I will do that. Following that, we
probably will present it to our clients that own much of
this property, and following that, we probably would present
it to the library commission and/or maybe the councilman
who hates to be left out, Gilbert Lindsay. And the mayor,
without a doubt, the mayor. So the process will be one of
the usual strategies to inform people of a new idea, and
of course if the Getty thing was hooked onto it, it would
be the greatest [Los Angeles] Bicentennial gift the city
could ever receive,
LASKEY: Well, with the support of Getty and ARCO, you have

169

some mighty allies —
MARTIN: And Ed Carter.

LASKEY: — which I think that the conservancy and preser-
vation groups haven't really had until now,
MARTIN: Right,

LASKEY: Fighting a lone battle,

MARTIN: That's right. It would really do something. So
it looks like it's strong. So that's the way it goes there,
[laughter]

LASKEY: Well, preservation, historic preservation, is a
kind of a knotty problem in any event, and I think most
particularly in Los Angeles we haven't been too careful
about preserving our past.

MARTIN: I quite agree, and too many of us, even like myself,
have really not paid much attention to it. We participate
when we become aligned with projects like Bicentennial or
the El Pueblo or Grauman ' s Million Dollar Theatre or the
Bradbury Building. We participate, but we haven't been
leaders until two things have happened: one, the library
issue that I have just described; and also, which I have not
described, the latest plan which we in the Bicentennial have
developed for the creation of a North Civic Center plan.
I could describe that to you, if you wish,
LASKEY: Yes, please do.
MARTIN: Another story.

170

LASKEY: Good.

MARTIN: El Pueblo has for twenty or thirty years been
limping along as a state historic park. The charter includes
the three entities: the state, the county, and the city.
The city is charged under contract with managing El Pueblo's
affairs. Any improvements or modifications have to be
approved by the other parties of course; it's a joint powers
agreement. The Bicentennial Committee has adopted as one
of its most important priorities the redevelopment of
El Pueblo. We've been working for two and a half years,
ever since we started with the Los Angeles 200 Committee,
to try to find a way that would lead to the redevelopment
of El Pueblo. As I said, it's been a fractured attempt by
many participants, most of whom have had a bureaucratic
alignment and none of whom has been able to bring together
all of the various entities that are part of the action.

We in the Bicentennial went to Mayor Bradley early in
our activity with a very simple summary letter which said
to him that our conclusion of our analysis was that the
only way that El Pueblo, as the city's founding place,
could be made into an acceptable park would be to close
Main Street and route the traffic around El Pueblo; secondly,
that the management of the various properties of the various
entities — state, county, and city — would have to include
the agreement that the property management would be the sole

171

responsibility of one of the entities,

LASKEY: Yes.

MARTIN: That was almost the end of our conmunications with

the mayor. iMuch work has been done by lots of good people

trying to find a way to make this happen. Behind the

scenes the great resistance came from two sources, the city

traffic department and the RTD [Rapid Transit District] ,

that they all in lengthy reports gave a myriad of reasons

why it couldn't be done. So in the latest meeting which

the mayor called, including all the affected departments

and some other institutions that were part of this area, we

heard the usual negative report by the traffic department,

after which I made a strong appeal to the mayor (who was

heading this special meeting) that what had been said by

Mr. [Donald] Howery, the head of the traffic department,

was true.

LASKEY: Well, what was his basis?

MARTIN: His basis was that you couldn't possibly manage the

traffic if you closed Main Street, giving all sorts of

figures and traffic movements and congestion times and all

of that.

LASKEY: Now, where were you going to close Main Street

from? from Main to the [Santa Ana] Freeway?

MARTIN: From the freeway to Sunset, So I said that there's

no question that his technical input was correct and I for

172

one wouldn't argue not one iota of the report; but, in
light of this, it's very evident to me that we need a
larger plan than the plan of El Pueblo, that v/e needed
what has now become the North Civic Center Plan, which
includes Chinatown, it includes Union Station, which is
becoming the property now of the city or Caltrans, and
includes El Pueblo and, even possibly, may include Little
Tokyo.

Now the mayor seized upon my suggestion, which hope-
fully would end up to be an official plan adopted as a
Bicentennial attainment and adopted as the plan which all
entities would follow with the improvements as they go
forward through the years. Mayor [Bradley] seized upon this
and gave very firm instructions to the planning department to
bring to him a comprehensive- list of the parties affected
and to start the process of developing an agreed-upon plan
which would integrate all the activities of all those
entities that I just mentioned in one grand plan.

And if one thinks about it, and you think of Chinatown,
which is immediately north of El Pueblo, you think of Union
Station, which is the future center of transportation of the
city, of the downtown area, and you think of going further,
we have a well-developed Little Tokyo and we have the North
Civic Center Mall. All of those areas are adjacent. They all
have much in common: they're multi-ethnic, they have

173

commercial aspects, and they have entertainment/visitor
aspects .

I'm hopeful the plan which is now emerging, and I have
fortunately been able to contribute something to that, v/ill
embody a series of planned elements which will make those
entities a singular, flowing plan rather than dispersed
areas, unplanned, at the present time. For example, strong
landscape motifs, mini-bus systems, pedestrian paths, bridges
over streets, second-level kinds of commercialism — all could
create this big area into one of the finest world-renowned
cosmopolitan areas in existence, I honestly think that's
going to happen in time, and hopefully the concept and a plan
will emerge as a Bicentennial accomplishment. So there seems
to me to be progress, and there's a lot of enthusiasm about
it at this moment,

LASKEY: It makes such good sense,

MARTIN: It makes a lot of sense. To overcome the fractured
nature of our established society is almost impossible, and
without some kind of a catalyst it just can't happen. We're
using the Bicentennial as the excuse and the catalyst to try
to make some of this happen. [tape recorder turned off]

I haven't seen what they're doing- at the city planning
department. I have had several meetings with Reuben Lovret,
who is a very imaginative person, and who followed up on my
expressed opinion that we need some kind of a ribbon tying

174

this whole thing up together and has come back with many

ideas that, hopefully, will get into that plan that will

cause a cohesion of the various parts. It's a complex

urban grouping, but that by its very nature makes it

interesting.

LASKEY: Well, now they've opened up the [Merced] Theatre,

essentially with "Spectrum"; that is, they're using it for

space now. What's the status of Pico House at this point?

MARTIN: Pico House has been reinforced for earthquakes,

has been resupplied with electrical pov/er in their major

system, and is now being submitted to private entities who

hopefully may take it over as a commercial operation. So

far there hasn't been any results from that request on the

part of the city. For whatever reason I don't know, but I

have a strong feeling that if we were ever able to close

Main Street and make it into a singular, wonderful.

El Pueblo park that these commercial possibilities would

flourish. And that would be very good for the city of Los

Angeles to have an exciting park, in addition to Olvera

Street,

LASKEY: Are there any plans to refurbish Olvera Street?

I had heard once that they were thinking about taking those

little center booths out and opening it up the way it was

originally, and I wondered if that's still —

MARTIN: I have no knowledge of them, although right at the

175

moment there are two bills before the [California] State

Legislature to more or less legalize the idea of a group of

private merchants collectively contracting with the city to

further Olvera Street as a single entity rather than a series

of little merchants. T don't know about the merit of that;

that is a broiling kind of a situation. But that really

doesn't stop the big idea of organizing the whole park into

a singular entity.

LASKEY: What I was thinking or wondering is if the Pico

House opened up and if the Garnier building ever gets

finished that that would be even more of a reason to do

what you're trying to do —

MARTIN: Oh yes.

LASKEY: — because here you have even more people down

there and you have this whole complex that's sitting right

there that really cries out to be made into a mall and then

to be expanded.

MARTIN: Right. Yes, I agree completely. Also I think

that the Merced Theatre would become a very great success,

but that's an expensive project and we've only remodeled

the lower floor into the "Spectrum" exhibit. So, these are

all possibilities. You see if we get the big plan accomplished

and adopted that someday it could happen,

LASKEY: Think how long it took to get the Civic Center

itself in, how many years —

176

MARTIN: All the years it took and the — And you know, it

could have been so much better and we could still modify

it to include the bridges across the north-south streets,

and that could be so exciting.

LASKEY: Well, I think I read once you had a plan, or had

proposed a plan, of taking along the Los Angeles River

back behind the [Union] Station, the tracks, and putting

bike paths in and green strips.

MARTIN: Yeah.

LASKEY: Which is essentially a discarded area, at this

point, railroad tracks; it would be North Spring —

MARTIN: You know you could really dam up the channel and

make a lake out of it> and that would be pretty good looking.

That would be a wonderful thing to have, and I think it

could be managed. You've got a line channel in there now.

It's be a great place for a lake.

LASKEY: How different it would look.

MARTIN: Yeah. Well, there's endless ideas like that and

here we are day after day attempting to find ways to

accomplish them, and it's almost like a dedication.

LASKEY: With the Olympics coming in 19 8 4 that might become

a positive incentive too,

MARTIN: Positive incentive, it's a positive incentive to

do many things. I'm sorry the People Mover didn't make it.

LASKEY: Well, it didn't make it this time, but I think

177

there's always the possibility — Again, I think we're
going through a rather difficult financial time in the
country, and a lot of these plans possibly have to be put
off.

MARTIN: I think the solution to the financial problem
will be greatly influenced by the emergence of Los Angeles
as the financial center of the West and the Pacific Rim.
Like New York is the financial business center on the
eastern seaboard, there's no question that Los Angeles's
destiny is similar, and there's every evidence that it's
happening now.

LASKEY: But don't you find — I should say, do you find,
having been a lifetime Los Angeles resident, a renewed
interest in downtown Los Angeles that just wasn't there
before?

MARTIN: Oh, it's a very strong interest. The fact that
we are constructing important residences in downtown
Los Angeles is one of the most encouraging things, and
Los Angeles will contain many, many blocks of fine apart-
ments. We're already there on Bunker Hill, This is only
the start of a great urban experience, I think. The main
thing that I think is important is we're talking about some
very important issues when we're talking about open spaces,
rooftop parks and people movers and transportation,
LASKEY: Certainly transportation is an issue that has to

178

be discussed and thought out in depth, because what's
going to happen to Los Angeles transportation wise?
MARTIN: Well, I have come a long ways in favor of the
People Mover as a mode of transportation encircling the
downtown area. And I firmly believe that the freeway
system must be supplemented by fixed-rail subways or
other kinds of arrangements. Even though the economics
on the surface of it does not apparently work out. There's
no question that our freeways are becoming parking lots,
and as great as they are — And we should complete the
freeway system that would be the next twenty years; if we
could do that it would be just wonderful. But, someday,
the automobile's going to have to play another different
role, and I say that as the vice-chairman of the auto club
[Automobile Club of Southern California] .
LASKEY: But I think it's only a sensible thing to say.
MARTIN: Oh yes. Oh yes. Economically, I believe that
transportation has to be judged as an element of a collec-
tive society, the cost of which must be born by all entities
and with due consideration to the share of the local
commercial institutions that border transportation routes.
All you have to do is enjoy the subway of Paris and realize
that you couldn't get around Paris without that subway.
The taxicab situation is terrible, and the subway is just
great. London is the same way, and Washington, D.C. is

179

starting to be. So the great American cities have them,
and they all cost a lot of money and they're always broke,
and yet it seems to me that the economics of urban centers
is always kind of a touch-and-go situation.

180

TAPE NUMBER: VI, SIDE TWO
MAY 5, 19 81

LASKEY: Before we go on with our discussion of transporta-
tion, I would like to backtrack and clarify a couple of
pieces of information, something we've been talking about.
We were talking about El Pueblo, but we never clearly-
defined the area that we were talking about, and I think
that there is a definite area that is El Pueblo.
MARTIN: I'm not certain that I can define it accurately,
but El Pueblo is a state park, historic park. It is owned
by the state, the county, and the city, and it is managed
by the city of Los Angeles. The boundaries as I know them
are: on the west I believe it is Hill Street or Broadway,
which is the location of the Fort Moore monumental wall;
on the south is the freeway, the Hollywood Freeway; on the
east is the Union Station; and on the north is Sunset
Boulevard. Now there's some slight modifications to those
general perimeters. What is it, in addition to that, that
you--?

LASKEY: Well, that was what I wanted to know. I simply
wanted to find the boundaries. I did have one question.
There have been some rumors that the original cemetery that
was attached to the plaza church, the Campo Santo, as a
[Los Angeles] Bicentennial project might be restored. Is

181

there any possibility that that would happen?
MARTIN: I don't think that there's a possibility that
we can make anything happen on that specific site during
the Bicentennial year. We have attempted to kindle interest
in a redevelopment of that area, and at one time we proposed
that that specific area be converted to a park which would
be dedicated to the king of Spain, who was scheduled to be
our guest but had to cancel his visit because of local
problems within Spain. So as I see it now there is not the
motivation at this particular time to accomplish any improve-
ment on that site. If we can accomplish the adoption of an
overall master plan agreed to by all of those institutions
and departments that are involved as a Bicentennial contri-
bution, we'll be lucky, and we are working diligently on
that subject right now with the creation of a mayor's
special committee called a blue ribbon committee, consisting
of about six representatives of the private sector and six
representatives of government, and these would be from the
highest level of respect and position,
LASKEY: That would be to redo the whole area.
MARTIN: That would be to create a plan which is being
formulated now in the planning department of the city,
to solve the planning of the El Pueblo area, plus Chinatown
to the north, the railroad station to the east, and even
perhaps Little Tokyo to the south. This being a technique

182

for solving the traffic movement problem, which is the one
thing that always stops the closure of Main Street, as it
goes through the center of El Pueblo.

LASKEY: And then I had a couple of questions going back to
our discussion on the library and your plans and formulations
for a new site. It included — and we sort of touched on this,
but I just wanted to clarify it — it included the tearing
down of what they call the No. One Bunker Hill building,
or the Edison Building, and the Engstrom Apartments, and I
wondered if you foresaw any problem with the conservancy
groups, particularly with the removal of the Engstrom
Apartments?

MARTIN: I'm not sure that the conservancy group that is
now working under John Welborne's leadership, is this one
branch of the various conservancy groups?
LASKEY: Well, preservationists in general —
MARTIN: I have resigned from that group in good stead,
because I mentioned to them that I thought that I had a
conflict of interest, and the conflict of interest arises
from a difference in belief between the conservancy group
and myself as to what is important in the saving of spaces
and the library, I have taken the position that we should
save the library and convert it to a museum and that we
should construct the new library on the east park, to the
east of the present library, and one scheme would be to

183

expand that library as a low-rise, stepped, terraced building
form across Fifth Street and become contiguous to the
Edison Building, or the site of the Edison Building. In
my thinking I wouldn't hesitate to recommend tearing dov/n
the Edison Building or the apartments or even getting rid
of the old switching building of the Department of Water
and Power .

LASKEY: That's across Grand is it not?
MARTIN: That is on Hope,
LASKEY: On Hope.

MARTIN: So, whether or not this can be accomplished is a
big question. Right now things are very upset amongst the
property owners because they each have been trying to gain
a command over the other, and we have some very upset people
who believe that our plan might have dulled their individual
opportunity to gain. This happens to be local, but it's
serious, and just how our plan will be received by planners
and library commissioners and so forth I don't know. It
may be well received, as it has been so far. The critiques
of it have not arisen yet, but they probably will,
LASKEY: As I understand it now, and our discussion before,
what the city has offered or what they are proposing, what .
they're searching for, is that someone will buy the library
land for $40 million — I think you said was its value — and
then supply the city with a library at a new site. Now

184

with your plan, the city would lose that $40 million in
income and still have to pay for the library. Would that —
What does that do to the city? I mean, where does that put
your stand as far as — ?

MARTIN: Well, just to get it in a little bit more accurate
perspective, the city is considering requesting proposals
from developers wherein they would lease the land on a long-
term lease to a developer and that developer would in return
provide the city with a new library on some site within the
downtown area. The new library as it is described in the
RFP is a $70 million proposition. And since the library
site must live up to a 6:1 floor area ratio criteria —
LASKEY: What does that mean?

MARTIN: It is the amount of space that can be built on a
piece of land. Six times the area of the land would be, in
this case, six times 220,000 square feet of land, or
1,320,000 square feet; but that isn't enough building to
pay for a $70-million library. The economics do not work
out in my estimation and in the estimation of every other
developer that I have talked with. So, in weighing the
several ways that might be applied to get a new library, you
have that scheme just described wherein a developer tears
down the existing library, builds a new building of
1,300,000 square feet, let's say, on that site, and, in return
for the use of the land for fifty years, builds a new library

135

on some other site that costs $70 million. So these two
companion proposals which knit together are not even
logical from an economic point of view.

Now what I've proposed is that we retain the existing
library, seek a donor to rebuild it and convert it into a
museum and operate it as a museum, and use the east park
land for a new low-rise library, and sell the development
rights that flow from the site to landowners so they can
build bigger buildings on their land. In doing this we
could create a very interesting urban space, because the
library and the new museum would all be low rise. Now the
economics of this proposal also show a shortfall of maybe
$40 million, but on the plus side you have a new museum
operated by someone and a new library, which is in accor-
dance with the city's needs. So on the asset side of it
the city comes out very far ahead by using the land that is
available on the east side of the present library.
LASKEY: You've also preserved the library building, which
is a plus in itself, the preservation of that building.
MARTIN: That's right; the preservation of the building and
converting it to a museum is perfectly acceptable to everyone
I've ever talked to. So, on balance, it appears to me that
our rationale is far superior to the other rationales. Even
though there is a shortfall between the value of the develop-
ment rights that flow from that site and the cost of the new

186

library. As I said, it's a very controversial subject and
before it's ever settled there's going to be a lot of weeping
and gnashing of teeth, I'm sure.

LASKEY: Well, there already has been. For how many years
has this been going on? It's pitiful,
MARTIN: Right, it's been a long time,

LASKEY: Well, just one last aspect since we got into
discussing preservation. A, C. Martin and Associates has
done preservation work with the Subway [Terminal] Building
and other buildings downtown. You are obviously concerned
with the library, you've mentioned the Bradbury Building. So
preservation, historical preservation, is something that
you're interested in. Could you define, is there a criteria
for preservation? When should a building be preserved, what
are the standards, the criteria, for preservation?
MARTIN: Well, I believe that buildings that have unique
qualities and are representative of a certain period of
architectural development and are particularly located within
the plan of the downtown area, in this case, so that they
can take a very strong role in the appraisal of their value,
then I believe that they should be preserved. Certainly the
library and the Bradbury Building are two prime examples.
The Edison Building is a very fine building; it is a modern
building in lots of ways. And even though it's a very hand-
some building in some respects, I believe it stands in the

187

way of developing a magnificent urban space, especially in
light of the library proposal I've described, I don't
think it has to be preserved, it wouldn't be bad, but it
doesn't have to be. The [Engstrom] apartments which are
adjacent to it I think are not important at all. So,
perhaps that description doesn't cover all the considerations,
but that's the way I feel about it.

LASKEY: Now, v/hat about — Well, for example. Heritage Square,
which is I think a private restoration project that is going
on. Hale House, the criticism and sometimes of the Pico
House, too, has been that perhaps it's being restored too
meticulously, that to actually restore something back to
exactly what it was isn't necessary, but for reuse or
recycling.

MARTIN: Well, I would be inclined to attempt to restore it
fairly accurately in my appraisal. An amateur can destroy
the quality of architecture very easily: the quality being
perhaps the unique way that materials and forms were
applied to represent-- the thinking of the architects then,
the people of that time. I would be inclined to restore
fairly meticulously not only the building itself but as
much of the environs of that building: for example, the
relationship to street spaces or street furniture and hard-
ware would be important, I think El Pueblo and the Pico
House should be restored fairly accurately. I've said the

automobile has split El Pueblo in half and, that v/e should
restore it to an original open plaza, which of course had
wagons and horses in it; that we should restore it to be
closer to its original use, which was the place for the
people to be. The only way to do that is to get the auto-
mobile out of it and route it around it and create it into
a park (as has been done in London so many times) .
LASKEY: That brings us back to our discussion of transpor-
tation and it might be a good idea to start v/ith what is
the place of the car in downtown Los Angeles? Can it be
controlled, eliminated, or modified?

MARTIN: Well, the automobile is really a personal thing,
and one has to have the automobile to be mobile in downtown
Los Angeles today. You can walk about six blocks, but that's
about it. We have a very modest form of public transporta-
tion in the bus system, and we really don't employ the use
of buses in our everyday life; so at the present time we are
counting on the automobile, which is, you know, an
outstanding means of private transportation, I feel that
the People Mover was really a very good thing because, like
the Loop in Chicago or many other public transportation
systems, it is something that weaves through the urban core,
that gets you closer for example from here [Union Bank
Building] to the City Hall, gets you closer than even,
sometimes, the automobile.

189

So, since there's a conflict between the automobile
on the street and the people on the street, which conflict
we're trying to eliminate by raising the people to the upper
levels, generally, and the parks on top of the garage
portions are some of the improvements, and putting in
pedestrian bridges, I believe it's a very good direction
and as time goes on it should be enhanced considerably.
When the people are elevated, the automobile is in less
conflict, and since the biggest conflict, really, is that
the people stop the free flowing action of the automobile,
especially at the signals and right turns, people crossing
the same street will stop all the traffic and create
congestion. So, if we can remove the people and get them
up on the upper levels, the present automobile situation
could be greatly improved. For the time being, and for
how many years I don't know, we can get by with that system.

There have been alternative schemes that we have thought
of in past history, I say "we," Ed and myself particularly,
wherein we could remove automobiles from the core of the
city very easily by creating what we called "dispersal
viaducts." Now if you think of the Fourth Street viaduct,
which comes in off the freeways and without interruption
places you right in the middle of the downtown area, that's
a perfect example of the movement of automobiles right into
the core without creating congestion. That thesis could be

190

carried on to where other streets could deliver automobiles
two miles farther out towards the perimeter of the city and
spread the congestion instead of having it concentrated in
the downtown. You could have, let's say, a series of ten
dispersal viaducts that would load or unload the city,
because there v/ould be no cross traffic; they would be
viaducts above the regular street system. That is probably
a lot less costly than the freeway systems as we have them
now.

The freeway systems as we have them now have become
highly congested, not only because of the load, which is in
excess of the freeways' design, but the concentration
around the downtown area is not well managed. At certain
times freeways are loaded and stop. Mow, of course, the
freeway system has never been completed because the state
government has cut it off, and whether it ever will be or
not is a big question. So I think, at this point in time,
that the pedestrian system as proposed by the city planning
department and the Community Redevelopment Agency is really
excellent; that is, headways, parks, and so forth, because
it separates the people from the streets.

LASKEY: Now, that will work in the newer areas, Figueroa,
Spring, and Flower.
MARTIN: Yeah, right.
LASKEY: What about the older part of downtown, say.

191

Seventh and Broadway, down in that area?

MARTIN: It really doesn't work. And I don't see how any
redevelopment will occur that will make it work. Because
the whole marketing system of the city — the shops and the
office buildings and the banks and so forth — is geared to
the pedestrian on the sidewalk.

LASKEY: Way back in 1969 you proposed a series of group
parking structures upon main arteries and then mini-buses
and walking or, you know, a people mover into the core —
is that still a valid idea?

MARTIN: Well, I think it's very valid, and the people mover
that's recently been proposed included peripheral parking
structures and an elevated people-mover system. As ele-
mentary as that is, it's in the right direction for relieving
congestion. Now that really doesn't solve the problem of
people on the sidewalk having an interface with the automo-
biles on the streets. If you remember, the reason that the
streetcars were eliminated many years ago was that there was
a conflict in the downtown areas between the streetcars
and the automobile and the people, and as a matter of fact,
it was so bad that only one automobile line could travel and
traverse around a streetcar in the congested area. It was
just too many conveyances in one place; so the streetcars
went out, and the automobile then had that lane. So there
are just many ways in which automobiles can be encouraged to

192

be more remote from the congested areas. But it takes
planning, it takes control, and the merchants won't let it
happen. So even though it will happen someday by force and
demand, these things are terribly slow.

LASKEY: Well, you said earlier that you've come a long
way in your thinking about transportation and that — I think
you were referring to the People Mover, alternative systems,
freeway supplements. What was your original thinking on
transportation?

MARTIN: Well, I originally felt that the more separation
of the automobile and people and the use of peripheral
garages was the dominant thing, and I think that even today
it is true. I have come a long way perhaps in the belief
that rapid fixed-rail transit does have a role in the urban
design; certainly the People Mover does have, as exemplified
in so many places, especially the Chicago Loop, And the
proposal down here was in some ways very handsome. The
fixed-rail transportation, which is found in Paris and
Washington, D.C., and Toronto, and is proposed for the Wilshire
corridor, would--if connected up with local surface transpor-
tation at the stations — would provide a great relief for a
lot of people.

The problem that I fight is the same age-old problem,
[which] is that the cost of doing that is not acceptable if
one measures the number of people served and the burden on

193

the community from a tax point of view, and therein the
enthusiasm wains. I guess that it's economically impossible
to justify that cost unless one spreads that cost over the
entire city as a burden that the city must pay for this kind
of transportation. That rationale is accepted by a lot of
people; it is not accepted by the anti-fixed-rail people.
And here I am the vice-chairman of the Automobile Club
[of Southern California] [laughter], and it really isn't
accepted by them; that is, the staff, although the Automobile
Club takes the position that it encourages all forms of
transportion in a balanced way.

If I have come a long ways, it is perhaps the acceptance
of the thesis that a public transportation system, as expen-
sive as it may be, is part of the cost of building a city
and needs to be shared by the entire city. And even though
it's not cost effective in so many ways, it is quite an asset,
and everything within a city is not cost effective when
measured alone. So that kind of a philosophy, or rationale
if you want to call it, is extremely debatable; however,
someday the cities will have many other costly elements and
they may be taking the form of air transportation within the
urban core of some kind. I suppose the measure is whether
or not a city survives economically, and there's a lot of
them in trouble today. So this whole growth and economic
problem is with us today, and I suppose as it always was.

194

I do feel the need of better transportation, however,
because the freeway systems are now clogged, and with very
little hope of unclogging them unless something supplants
them — either the freeway network is expanded, that would
help, but that would eventually be clogged, too. So, it's a
constant dilemma.

LASKEY: Well, one aspect of it that I know you have strong
feelings about is the importance of the private sector
working with the public sector in developing programs for
the city and in transportation. What role would the private
sector take on in developing a transportation system?
Obviously, you have changed, you have come a long way in
your thinking. Isn't it possible that the rest of the private
sector will make those changes?

MARTIN: With the present administration in Washington, the
private sector has taken on a great deal more importance.
Principally because federalism has been slashed at by the
Reagan administration and the budget has been slashed to
attempt to get into a balanced, healthy economic situation
as far as the United States is concerned, I truly believe
that the bureaucracy which has been created by the Democratic
regime and the advocacy of welfare programs of many kinds
has brought us to the point where we expect more as a
society than we can afford. Now, that's perhaps a natural
cycle and we're now going around the curve on a different
cycle.

195

The private sector, so-called, has come a long ways in
realizing that the real strength of the development of a
community must spring from the people and not their govern-
ment. Government has assumed the role, however, under the
federalist kind of sponsorship, wherein the members of the
bureaucracy have been assigned charters, have assumed charters,
have done their thing to the best of their ability expecting
funding, most of it from the federal government, and have
created an isolation unto themselves that has not reached
out and included the private sector. Now, sure, public
hearings have always been held and it's a most difficult
process. But I believe that with the revolution of the
people on taxes, as exemplified by Proposition 13 passed a
few years ago, that now with the reduction of grant funds
from Washington that the private sector is going to have to
step up and be counted and be participant in public decisions.
By that I'm thinking of the private — call it the business
sector or power structure, those people that have an economic
interest and a social interest, which would be enhanced so
that there will be more of the government-private sector
partnership that is talked about so often. And I think
we're at the turning point now.

LASKEY: You've said, I think, that it's up to the private
sector to provide the initiative and the public sector to

196

provide the coordination.

MARTIN: Well, I believe that, because I believe that the
private sector really is more representative of the will of
the people generally than the public sector. Mow, I use the
word bureaucracy because we've allowed ourselves to drift
into bureaucracy instead of democracy, and that conflict is
raging now. We must eliminate the bureaucratic viev;point
and get back to where the government employees really are
the servants of the people. That's what they're supposed to
be, rather than serving themselves.

LASKEY: How would this operate in downtown Los Angeles, for
example, because that's the area that we're talking about
now, the revitalization of downtown? How would you see the
various sectors working together?

MARTIN: Well, I believe that our government as it is
structured--and it's called the weak mayor system and a
strong council system, along with the bureaucracy which
exists in the various government departments — I believe that
structure has no room for strong leadership on a citywide
basis, unless the mayor can take a much stronger position
and the bureaucracy of the departments is limited more
than it is now. We are experimenting with that very subject
when we are advancing this El Pueblo renovation and we're
doing what is designated as the North Civic Center Task Force
in trying to solve the problem of closing down Main Street

197

as it goes through El Pueblo. We have structured and
presented to the mayor a format for accomplishing just that,
creation of a public group and creation of a private sector
group all acting as one blue-ribbon advisory committee to
further the process of consolidating the opinions of the
institutions that are involved as well as the plans that
are involved. I think that's a very good system, and hope-
fully more things like that can be done in the future.
LASKEY: Wouldn't it be to the benefit — keeping now on the
subject of transportation--to the private sector to eliminate
the congestion in downtown, to see that parking places are
provided right now? I think that now it's almost impossible
to park in downtown Los Angeles. Even if you can drive down,
you can't park down there.
MARTIN: Right.

LASKEY: Is there anything that you could see, any kind of
coalition between the private and the public sector, in
helping with the parking situation if not the traffic situa-
tion?

MARTIN: I believe it is happening when the private sector
endorses a people mover, which they have done, because that
included peripheral parking and includes the minimization of
the use of the automobile. The answer is definitely that
the private sector has to find an answer to the high cost of
parking. Right now the private business sector is subsidizing

198

the parking of their employees with large amounts of money.
And that's really a burden on the whole society that should
be managed a little bit better.

LASKEY: I think along with that you have talked, too,
about the quality of life, and especially again in relating
to downtown and to Los Angeles that more attention has to be
given to the environment, not just to the architecture but
to the whole environment of living downtown or of being
downtown.

MARTIN: The downtown area is now starting to get housing
and the plan of the CRA and the city planning group are
starting to bring in the separation of the people from the
automobile and the free movement of pedestrians. I believe
that all of that is conducive to a different quality of life
because as those people participate in the environment of a
well-planned city, they will then enjoy more human-scaled
places, like small restaurants and gathering places in the
sun and a little bit more of the leisure aspects that the
city can provide. And that's just happening to Los Angeles
now. It's just starting to happen, with some great potential.

Because if we look back, Los Angeles has been devoid
of cultural things, has been devoid of even trees until we
brought in and planted all those trees, as you know. And
it is slowly happening that the human-scaled environment is
developing all through downtown, not only in the new western

199

portion but even in the old portion, where the Mexican
population particularly are using Broadway as their shopping
area. So there's a movement, I think, that is beneficial,
that has to do with the quality of life downtown, particularly

if one lives downtown, as they do in most other cities.
LASKEY: Well, I'm going back a ways now; I have a quote here
from you, from 1963, in which you say, "The architect of
today is sought out because he deals in broad aspects of
social need. The architect of tomorrow will be a master
planner of total environments." You said that in 1963, and
essentially I think that's what's happened, as far as certainly
your relationship to the development of downtown.
MARTIN: Well, that's almost twenty years ago, and I think
that the words are the same, but there has been a marked
evolution of thinking that has occurred in those twenty
years. The planning aspect of the total is superseding the
trespasses of the individual, as it relates to using the
qualities of the city to enhance his personal gain. As I've
often said, one of the marked examples of private interests
serving public interests is the development of all the parks
on the roofs of the parking structures, which are by law
open to the public but maintained by the private sector.
And that is, in my mind, a torch in the brightness of the
city, that this is really an elimination of the greed that
is inherent in the subject of private ownership of land and

200

facilities, and to the exclusion of the public. And I
believe a city is a place that includes all of the people,
with privileges to be mobile and to participate. Otherwise
the city would be a series of cells owned by individuals,
with fences around them.

LASKEY: Well, maybe the difference would be if you look at
Spring Street and you look at Flower Street today, the
difference in the accessibility of the buildings and the
spaces between the buildings.

MARTIN: That's a perfect example; it was of course caused
by the demands of the city for greater amounts of space
and the elimination of the limit height on the buildings and
the changing of the density factors, which limited the amount
of improvements that could be made upon property, from 13:1
down to 6:1 now, and that's a big change. So open space
results, and less density results. Hopefully, a balance can
be found that will include enough density to make civilian
contacts real and fruitful and enough managed open space to
create environments that somehow seem appealing.
LASKEY: Well, how is the idea of growth built into your
system? I think you also talked about the mobility of
people, their idea of moving and growing and expanding. In
the old system, using Spring Street as an example, there
was no real room for expansion or growth in that system; it
was verv solid.

201

MARTIN: Well, we had wall-to-wall buildings, as we say.
The limit height was 150 feet or thirteen stories and there
was no setbacks required on the buildings. So they banged up
against each other wall to wall. That did not leave any
open space for the pedestrian, and in effect it was a very
detrimental system, and still is, although it's opening up
because they're tearing down a lot of them now. But those
buildings are obsolete, and they do not have good access,
even from the freeway system.. Spring Street has very poor
access, and that's a fault of the design of the freeway system,
But these things will change in time.

202

TAPE NUMBER: VII, SIDE ONE
MAY 5, 19 81

LASKEY: The design of the freeway system was probably not
good, but there's also been a tremendous change in design of
buildings, designed for flexibility and for change, I would
think.

MARTIN: In the buildings which are constructed in the
business core and which are often high-rise, the old business
of vertical transportation comes into play. The optimum is
to incorporate floor areas that match the ability of the
elevator systems to carry the people in and out, and that's
a very refined science. So we find several factors: this
vertical transportation as one factor, and then the adapta-
bility of the interior space to almost any use adds another
factor. And all of our buildings these days include flexible
partitions and, hopefully, the interior stairs and elevator
shafts that are convenient to this perimeter space.

If you recall, it wasn't too long ago that we had on
the outside of buildings something called the fire towers,
and to get to a fire tower you had to create a corridor going
from the middle of the building through rentable space to an
outside stairway, like a fire escape. And we were the ones
who designed a new system in this Union Bank Square, which is
called a ventilated vestibule system and [v/hich] is now
standard. There are no perimeter corridors going to the

203

outside; all the corridors are in the core, on the inside of
the building, and the staircases, stair shafts, have vestibules
leading into them, which have ventilation systems. They're
under pressure, and any smoke that finds its way towards the
stairway is blown out instead of sucked in. So, that was
one little design solution that we invented and is now the
standard in office building design.

LASKEY: But I would think then a series of these kinds of
changes and design improvements would also leave you more
space to work with because you need less space for units —
air conditioning, heating, cooling. I imagine that there 've
been a lot of refinements in these areas.

MARTIN: Yes, the building efficiency — that is, net usable
to gross square footage--has improved from a factor of
maybe 75 percent in some of the older designs up to as much
as 85 percent today. And that is an important point because
all of that additional efficiency really returns greater
profits to the owners of the building and makes them a more
economically feasible improvement. The same thing is true
now in the energy-efficient mechanical electrical systems
that we are designing to meet the national demands because
of the energy shortage. Our buildings use 50 percent of the
energy today as compared to 100 percent only ten years ago.
LASKEY: What sort of specific changes, modifications, have
you made?

204

MARTIN: Well, we have eliminated the extravagant use of
electricity for lighting around the perimeter of the building,
For example, the light fixtures which are located next to
the outside wall are on a separate switching system that is
controlled by light detectors; so they're often turned off
during a good bright day, and we save all that electricity.

Then another system that we're using right now is we
are putting in large water storage tanks, which are chilled
at night when the temperature differential of the outside
and, let's say, the demand temperature of the inside of the
building is reduced, and it's easier to gain the storage of
chilled water at night. And as it happens, incidentally,
the electric rates are lower also. I'm not certain that this
is going to last, but that's one thing that we're using.

And we are using much more refined design methods,
which make certain increments of the equipment finer tuned,
or more compatible, so that the wasted energy of incompati-
bility of equipment is eliminated. That would be in air
conditioning and ventilating, and then in lighting we have
many features like I mentioned. Also we have reduced the
footcandle illumination down to a lower level, as applied
to the overall space, and we are using more task lighting to
make up the difference. This is what happens in the design
of the garden- type office layouts, wherein a person has
liberal task lighting, supplied usually from above the desk.

205

for his task, and general illumination is probably half
of what it used to be .
LASKEY: That's interesting.
MARTIN: Yeah.

LASKEY: Also, what about what we generally think of as the
modern skyscraper, as the curtain-wall, the glass-wall
building: will there be any modification in the facades to
save energy? My understanding is that they used a lot of air
conditioning or heating or whatever, just the glass-windowed
buildings. Will there be any change, any physical change,
in the way the buildings will look?

MARTIN: Yes, well there's considerable right now, and all
you have to do is look at the Wells Fargo Building, which is
a stainless steel panel and a double-glazed window. Now
that, as far as heat loss is concerned, is a very productive
design, whereas our older buildings like ARCO have granite
exterior walls and single-glass windows. So the temperature
loss or the heat gain, whichever you wish to consider —
LASKEY: Whichever way you're looking at it.

MARTIN: — is just remarkably different. Now, shop fabrica-
tion of the panels on the Wells Fargo Building dictates a
certain standardization that would be a little more difficult
in masonry or stone buildings . So the future really includes
very lightweight walls, shop fabricated and brought to the
site as one unit, and that's what almost all of our buildings

206

are now. We also reduce the weight of the building frame
when we have lighter walls, which helps in conservation of
steel and especially in the seismic aspect of design. So
the trend is, of course, towards conservation and shop
fabrication and a different appraisal of aesthetics,
which takes a generation or two to accept, such as "I love
granite and I don't like shiny steel buildings." That
would be one generation, whereas it's often said today that
the youth would gravitate towards the more modern metallic
materials and accept them as being aesthetically satisfactory
This isn't of great import to us because we understand the
subject, but society is accepting a different form of
aesthetics, and that means architecture.

LASKEY: Wouldn't also your idea of open spaces, of green
spaces, which aesthetically I think we all find pleasing,
be beneficial as far as energy conservation is concerned?
Because it would seem to me that space between buildings, or
grass, or trees, or whatever, would have an environmental
effect that would be positive, as opposed to, like New York
City, just acres of tall towers.

MARTIN: I'm not sure about the energy-saving feature of
that, but I am sure that there is a new demand by those of
us that may be environmentally motivated to solve the sun
problem, or to share the sun, and to eliminate a situation
where one building places another building in shade all day

207

long, or shadow. It has to do with human rights and their
right to share in the warmth of the sun. That's a big thing,
and when we have large open spaces we manage that problem a
lot better than if the open spaces are small.
LASKEY: I've also noticed that some of the new buildings —
well, particularly your Security Pacific Building, although
it was there first — there's been a lot of innovative siting
of buildings on the land. I don't know what the building is
that's going up across from the Security Pacific at this point
(I think Skidmore, Owings and Merrill is doing it) , but
that's an interesting siting of a building, no longer just
on the street front.

MARTIN: It's a very fine example of the flexibility that
the architects are employing in the design of different
configurations of buildings, generally to match the importance
of the shape or space between the buildings rather than com-
paring one building form with another solely. We have often
said that this amount of space between the buildings is as
important to design as the buildings themselves, and that's
proven in so many cases where we've had a chance to influence
the creation of great urban spaces, usually void spaces.
They're found here, and the space to the east of Union Bank
Square, which was created by the Connecticut General chairman,
who insisted that that be open — that is, the space immediately
east of this building — is reserved forever as space. No

208

building can be built in there, by law. Mow, that was the
foresight of the chairman of Connecticut General when we did
this building, but if you think about it, this building, the
[Bonaventure] Hotel over here, the north tower of ARCO, and
the new Wells Fargo — all share that space. And that's true
of the space around Security Pacific, where we protected the
space around, we located the building —
LASKEY: That's a beautiful space.

MARTIN: Yes, it is a beautiful space, but that was really
a planned space. The same thing is true, incidentally, with
the library problem. If you retain that space as an urban
space and you create high density around that space, it's
I think a more pleasant urban solution than if you fill that
superblock with a great big building in the middle of it,
destroying the character of the space. So, yes, the design
of the buildings and their material compositions and the
position of the buildings within the spaces created in the
urban plan — all have a tremendous amount to do with human
acceptance, with the responsiveness of people, with aesthetic
impacts and humanization of the scale of the city, and we're
giving a tremendous amount of attention to that these days .
LASKEY: Is that where you see the role of the architect, or
your role, today, is in the humanization of the cities?
MARTIN: I see the role of the architect very strongly being
exemplified in that particular direction. That's also true

209

of city planners, who generally have an architectural
background. Yes, the molding and the configurations within
an urban development are becoming more and more vital to the
solution of the city as such: the place of choices; the place
of congregating with other city dwellers; a very exciting
life, as compared to being out in the middle of a farm and
enjoying nature; it's a different thing. So I know that the
city developments and redevelopments are at hand constantly,
because the world is filling up with people.

One observation I had the other day, which I am
intrigued with, is if you think about Spaceship World in this
universe, and you think that the world is the only planet in
this universe with a very, very thin band of oxygen that
surrounds it, comparatively paper-thin compared to the
distance. It's the only place a human can live, and it's so
thin that when you're at sea level you breathe comfortably,
but if you're at 8,000 feet (which is a mile and a half)
above sea level, you have difficulty living, maybe at 10,000
feet. And that comparatively is like a paper-thin envelope
around Spaceship World, and if you go out through that
oxygen, you have to have support systems that would allow
you to live. You have to take the oxygen with you. And if
you think about that for a minute, as we start in to penetrate
that, or to go out from our protective area of oxygen, the
envelope of oxygen, if you think about it for a minute, we're

210

so miniscule in the big sense, and all of this that v;e're
talking about is going on within that little tiny band of
air. And now we're going out through it, and we can stay
out there with life-support systems and be free of gravity
also. That gives one, I believe, an entirely different
perspective of the role of man on Spaceship Earth. It's
a very interesting perspective to even think about that for
a minute: that we are really trapped in a thin layer of
oxygen. And that's not bad; we're glad to have it.
LASKEY: But we certainly should take care of it.
MARTIN: And we certainly should take care of it; it's that
thin, it's that thin, in the way of the whole universe. And
it better hang together, otherwise we all cease. So in the
big sense, if you go out in space and start thinking about
this, and obviously man and animals and flowers and flora —
All relate to the existence of that oxygen, and that's unique
in the solar system.

LASKEY: Something I think that probably most of us don't
think about, and that probably should be thought about as
we become more and more populous, something that should be
thought about more and more, is conservation and protection
of this ecological system.

MARTIN: Well, if one wants to start from that perspective,
and I'm sure a lot of people do, one realizes what a fragile
existence man has, extremely so, because even to go up in

211

the high mountains, you can't live. So all this goes on in

this little envelope, which is a very interesting thing: how

do you live within that little envelope of oxygen?

LASKEY: And how do you save it.

MARTIN: How do you save it, and presumably it's worth

saving; so philosophically speaking, a lot of things can

emanate from that kind of a thinking process.

LASKEY: Certainly the fragility and the importance of

conservation are two things that have to come out of that.

On the other hand, as an architect, do you have any great

ideas in soaring out through space?

MARTIN: I've started to think about that a little bit,

although not very constructively. I believe that great space

developments, they're just around the corner, because it's

entirely possible to do it right now.

LASKEY: With the technology.

MARTIN: And the only thing that we have to create out there

is this lif e-supporcing gas called oxygen and a few of the

other things, because out there you're free of gravity, and

you can move from one place to the other, seemingly very

easily, in the future, because nothing stops you from moving.

So yeah, I think without a question that there's going to be

great developments in space, great developments.

LASKEY: Actual living in space, is that in the plans?

MARTIN: Well, I don't know what benefit there would be;

212

they tell me there's a lot of commercial benefits, that many
processes are better done out in gravity-free spaces. That
takes a lot of imagination, but I'm sure it could be.
LASKEY: It's like all the science-fiction movies that we've
gone to all our lives suddenly becoming reality.
MARTIN: I think that they are real right now; I mean, the
space vehicles are there. And they're working hard,
photographing, going out to photograph the weather every day,
and I look at that picture every day now to see where the
cloud structures are. That's really exciting.
LASKEY: Fascinating. And we sort of take it for granted.
That element of space we've gotten used to, and we accept it.
MARTIN: Already. In navigation right now, with a little
electronic instrument you can locate the point that you're
standing on within fifty feet and closer, just by turning on
a dial and triangulation between space vehicles that are
fixed in space. It's the earth that's turning; the vehicles
may be in a fixed position, compared to the sun. Well, of
course they can move, I'm sure they can do anything, but
there's a great change ahead.

SECOND PART (MAY 27, 1981)

LASKEY: Mr. Martin, I think we should talk about your position
as co-chairman of the Los Angeles Bicentennial Committee. We've
referred to the Bicentennial, and you've referred to the things

213

your company is doing, but we haven't talked about what
you ' re doing.

MARTIN: Just a matter of detail, Marlene, I'm the chairman,
and Margo [Albert] is the vice-chairman. It is not a co-
chairmanship.
LASKEY: Oh, OK.

MARTIN: It's just a slight distinction, but the record
should be straight.

It was sometime about the middle of 1978 that Mayor Tom
Bradley called me and asked me if I would consider being the
chairman of the city of Los Angeles's Bicentennial celebration,
which would be a yearlong celebration starting September 4,
1981. I asked for a day of time and then responded favorably,
for the principal reason that I felt that it was a distinct
honor. I knew that it would be a time-consuming assignment
and that, to a great extent, it complemented a certain pride
that exists in my mind because of the long history of the
family and the development of the city of Los Angeles and its
environs. So the acceptance of the assignment did not carry
with it a program of what was intended, nor did it carry with
it any funding, which caused me to attempt to describe what
I thought a bicentennial celebration might include.
LASKEY: Well, when Mayor Bradley approached you on this,
did he have any kind of program in mind, or did he sort of
throw that in your lap as part of the acceptance?

214

MARTIN: Well, it was the latter. There is no existing
program, or there was none, and therefore I really had to
imagine what a program might be. To do that I analyzed what
I thought was important about the society, with its multi-
ethnic composition, with its diverseness of interests of
all of the people, and I prepared a statement (which I hope
is still around) that pretty much exists today as the
adopted program. That statement analyzed what I thought
were the interests of society, and it included matters of
culture, of the various types; that is, active cultural
things-, such as the dance, and somewhat passive cultural
things, such as painting and art and the theater. It included
certainly a strong role for religious affairs, for educational
affairs. It included quite an interesting role because of
the interests of society in sporting events, since
Los Angeles is the center of so many great athletes and the
home of so many great athletes. It included thoughts related
to entertainment because of Los Angeles's role in the movie
industry and of course now the TV industry. There were also
thoughts that we should honor the past and we should
certainly respect and recognize the present and we should
do as much as we can to forecast the future.

Actually, besides that broadly, described program,
there was a question of how would one organize it, and it
was decided with the mayor. And by this time, iMrs . Jane Pisano,

215

who was working for the mayor at the time of my acceptance —
It was suggested that she might be an assistant to me . I
quickly recognized her tremendous assets- As time went
on she was designated as the executive director, and time
has proven that she is one of the most outstanding people
that I have ever had the pleasure of working with. The
formulation of the committee — and it was suggested that the
committee might include forty-four representatives of different
segments of society, principally selected because of ethnic
background, but also strongly influenced by myself as to
their background in certain abilities; these abilities v/ould
be organizationally determined, such as finance, accounting,
legal, public relations, and other standard disciplines that
are found in business.

LASKEY: Was the forty-four selected because that was the
number of original settlers, or was that--?

MARTIN: Yes. It was the thesis that perhaps a committee of
forty-four would be in honor of the original forty-four
pobladores , who incidentally were dominantly of Mexican,
Indian, and black descendance. A great number of the forty-
four were children, as it happened. So therefore the method
of selection was [that] each councilman would select one
representative, which I thought was unfortunate because they
had no concept of what qualifications should be represented —
LASKEY: Oh, really. They weren't briefed, or given — ?

216

MARTIN: It was not really well done by the council (with no
reflection on anybody) . Then the mayor and myself selected
the twenty-nine, which included myself. In this case, the
most important selection that I had to do was the selection
of Margo Albert, who is a Mexican and a former star, an
actress, to be the vice-chairman and to act as a bridge
between the Mexican community and the entertainment and
cultural community. She is just outstanding in that role.
Also the selection of Olive Behrendt, who I had hoped would
be the head of the cultural aspects, and, as it has worked
out, she has remained head of the cultural aspects, with most
of her attention being given over to music, which is her
outstanding quality. We supported her strongly with staff,
and it has worked quite well. Also I selected Bob [Robert R. ]
Dockson, who is a dear friend and also chairman of California
Federal Savings and Loan and former president of the Chamber
of Commerce, to be head of finance. We selected
Rod [Rodney W. ] Rood of ARCO, who was on the original Olympic
citizens' committee, and his role was to be head of sports.
Tyler Macdonald, who I thought to be an outstanding,
inspirational public relations and advertising executive,
proved to be just that and remains as a committee chairman.
My friend Glenn Dumke, who is chancellor of the state college
and university system, accepted the chairmanship of the educa-
tional committee, and later on, as it developed, he assigned

217

Dr. Gloria Lathrop to play the role of representing him on
the committee. I cannot say enough for Gloria Lathrop, who
I think is one of the strongest organizers of educational
matters that I've ever come across.

So we are going further, and there was a decision to
be made: the invitation as to who would head the religious
committee, and this was sensitive. But since we knew that
there had been a coalition of religious leaders for the 1976
U.S. Bicentennial established locally, the problem of selec-
ting a leader was lessened, and I determined that Bishop

[Manuel] Moreno of the Catholic archdiocese should be
the leader. He has proven to be an outstanding religious
leader, and I think that there has been a lot of good come
from some of the events that they have sponsored.

With this kind of leadership on the committee and with
the process of having all programs approved by an executive
committee, which was composed of the heads of standing
committees, we have had excellent cooperation from the
executive committee of the committee of forty-four. The
actual committee of forty-four, which meets quarterly, is

not too active, in that it's almost impossible to have forty-
four people active that are interested, and we try to keep
them interested. There's been some good work done by members
of the committee who I have not mentioned, but really excellent
work.

218

The process of finance has been an interesting one. We
determined early in the game that we would separate the sub-
ject of operational funds from the funding of specific
projects. The thesis that we established also included the
point that our committee would act as a catalyst to bring
together existing corporations, foundations, and organizations
which may be connected with performing arts: for example,
bring people together not only to formulate programs, because
most of them are formulated by professionals, but also to
sponsor and to pay for the implementation of all these programs.
And as of this date, since we have kept operational funds
separate from the project specific funds, we have developed
the following amounts: we have secured some $560,000 for
operations and have maintained a staff of about seven or
eight, and we have secured something like $7.5 million in
specific projects funded by corporate groups and foundations.
LASKEY: Now, this is starting out from the basis of nothing,
right? You had no funding from the city?

MARTIN: Well, I did get $40,000 from the city council, which
paid for Jane Pisano as executive director and a small staff,
the establishment of an office in the Oviatt Building, and
other miscellaneous expenses. Most of the work of the committee
and the legal work has been volunteered, which has helped us
tremendously. So the answer is that in most cases the funds
have come from the private sector, and this has been a matter

219

of pride. It has been pride to our committee, but also
pride of the citizens, because this society these days are
so used to having the federal government pay for everything
and local government pay for everything that this is one of
the first times that the private sector has come forward for
such an event and funded it completely. The $40,000 from
the city council, of course, was a small fund that allowed us
to get going and for which we are grateful.
LASKEY: Eight million dollars is a lot of money.
MARTIN: Yes, and actually that's in direct grants. I am
certain that the reflected multiple of this kind of funding
would multiply it several times over, as far as the effect
on the community is concerned, because a direct grant always
generates other supporting grants. So it appears, even
though at this moment in time we have struggled to keep the
doors open — because we actually ran out of cash--and we've
been on an additional fund drive, it appears that we'll make
it through now, and finally the city government is giving us
a little bit more support. When we needed it, it's been
awfully slow in coming. Which has kept the pressure on the
committee and particularly on myself and Jane Pisano. That's
a brief history of some of the important factors of the
management of the Bicentennial.

I think that the public attitude and the support of
the press has been quite good. This summer we'll see the

220

performance of a series of nine or ten community festivals,
and these are ethnically oriented to some extent, because
the ethnic groups do collect in different areas of the city.
That looks like it's going to be a nice, summer-long series
of events. We have a major sports luncheon scheduled now
for August 13, which will be one of the largest events ever
held in honor of the great athletes that have come from this
area. They will be collected and honored at the Biltmore
Hotel with a very major luncheon. So that is now scheduled.

We also are trying — Oh, a matter of interest, we did
have a visitation scheduled for the king of Spain and had
preparations made, but his problems of an internal government
shakeup had caused him to cancel the visitation. We are now
attempting to bring the president of the United States and
the president of Mexico, [Jose] Lopez Portillo, here for the
night of September 3, at which time, if we can accomplish
this, we will have a major fundraising event conducted by the
Los Angeles Area Chamber of Commerce, which would bring funds
to our committee if it is successful; $100,000 is our
arrangement. So we're going to make it through financially.

As a side comment on the Bicentennial: to date, the
one failure has been the failure of the coin and medallion
program that we launched with great work and difficulty, and
it may possibly succeed. But we did expect to receive from
$500,000 to $1 million from the licensing and selling of

221

related objects and the coin and medallion program. This
has been disappointing, I think, because our resources are
spread so thin in this big city. We have a staff of eight
people doing this, and even though there are 3,000 teachers
forming an education committee, to undertake such a major
event for a year long by such a small committee with such a
small amount of money is difficult. However, everybody
feels that we've been eminently successful.

222

TAPE NUMBER: VII, SIDE TWO
MAY 27, 1981

LASKEY: What are some of the results of the Bicentennial
program that you have been particularly pleased with?
MARTIN: Well, I think that we've had a wonderful recognition
as to the work of the education committee. We produced a
syllabus that was used by the teaching profession to teach
the children about the history of Los Angeles, and that
became a consistent document, giving two hundred suggestions
as to how to accomplish that, for example, on the two-
hundredth birthday. I believe there 'd been a dissemination
of good, correct historical background and knowledge into
the school system by this effort, and I think that's very
worthwhile.

There's also been a recognition of the importance of
the entertainment industry through this opportunity created
by the Bicentennial that I think has to some extent chanced
the image of Los Angeles, v/hich had been often described as
a city of twelve districts in search of a unanimity —
LASKEY: Sixty suburbs in search of a city?

MARTIN: Yeah, something like that. And also the image, the
national image, of Los Angeles has been really elevated due
to some of the national publicity that's been generated.
This has recently been true of New York, with their campaign

223

"I Love New York," and we coattailed right onto that with

an "I Love L.A." or "L.A.'s the Place."

LASKEY: "L.A.'s the Place," now, that's the Bicentennial

slogan.

MARTIN: Yes.

LASKEY: How did that originate?

MARTIN: That originated through the assistance of our

public relations counsel. Stone Associates. We had talked

about it in the executive committee, as we had discussed

many other logos. We really discouraged the use of the word

"L.A." in the beginning, in favor of "Los Angeles," but as it

all developed through the communication media, "L.A.'s the Place"

has taken, and it is now used by the [Los Angeles] Visitors

and Convention Bureau as a standard procedure, "L.A.'s the Place."

We also, as a matter of a supporting activity, early
in the game we decided that we would develop posters which
would be done by local artists. We selected some seventeen
artists, who have produced a series that I think is very
notable. We also, through my influence, selected John Follis,
who is a dean of graphic artists, to coordinate the graphic
work that was found throughout the whole program, and, of
course, he designed our logo, a simulated angel. And that
has been a great success.

So some of these things, such as having a sound base of
an organizational format, with contracts carefully established

224

and licensing contracts — We also had controlled very carefully
the artistic representations, as well as the press represen-
tations, as to the spirit of the Bicentennial. We decided
strongly against the use of pseudorepresentations of the
nature of Los Angeles, such as the old symbol of a Mexican
sitting in the front door with a sombrero hanging over his
head. We wanted no part of that, and throughout this
Bicentennial there has been none. Rather, we have used the
highest form of graphic art, and we have only advocated
programs which were culturally molded, with guidelines that
would be of a highly respectful nature. We felt that since
we have so many strong ethnic groups in this city, that it
was a matter of complementing all those ethnic groups with
the finest representation that could be applied to them.
And I think this has been very successful. It is easy to
make a circus out of an event like this, and we were conscious
of this. Never have we allowed it.

LASKEY: Well, I'm thinking of the posters, the Bicentennial
posters, which are uniformly good. You have very high-level,
high-powered artists, like David Hockney, that you were able
to get. Who did the persuading, who had the contacts with
people like this?

MARTIN: Well, we had a special committee organized by
John Follis, and I believe that on that committee there were
professional people. I can't recall who they were, undoubtedly

225

leaders in the field, who extended the invitations to these

artists. And we paid the artists for their work, I think

something like $1,000 or maybe $3,000 apiece. It v/as a

nominal sum, and the program is extremely successful. The

fact is, the posters are the most successful licensing thing

we have.

LASKEY: It may be that this summer, with all the festivals

coming up, that the other things will take hold. As people

join in things of a festive nature, they like to have

remembrances of those things.

MARTIN: Also supporting that thought, we have an agreement

with Ralphs grocery, who have combined with McDonald's

restaurants, and they're going to spend some $3 million

in advertising for special Bicentennial events; included will

be the distribution of the Bicentennial dollars at the stores,

and this will be a very strong outlet. At that time, with

this big advertising program, I believe the dollar sales

will really start to go. I think it's going to happen, and

it could very well be that we're going to end up with an

extra $100,000 or so, which will be used to clean up and

to establish a proper archives to permanently tell the story

of the Bicentennial.

LASKEY: That's an interesting point: is anybody archiving

the material now? do you have someone?

MARTIN: We have received as a gift the collection of

226

photographs that was assembled by Security Pacific Bank,
valued at $1.25 million or so and including the services of
a full-time archivist for two years to place this collection
into a highly organized property for the people of the city.
This will be kept at the library.

LASKEY: The Security Pacific collection is certainly one of
the great collections of Los Angeles photography, old
photography.

MARTIN: Correct. Also, Ticor has made available their
collection, which I believe is being held by a separate
corporation. I'm trying to think of the name of the historical
society — I think it's California Historical Society--that is
in charge of the Ticor [collection] . So we also have estab-
lished within the new city service building a space for the
city's archives. That is something new, and it's amazing
that the city of Los Angeles has never had a real highly
organized location for its archives, which is unbelievable,
but —

LASKEY: That's amazing.

MARTIN: But there has been work done in this area, and we
will have an archives established. As I see it, at this point
in time (three and a half to four months from the completion)
it's wrapping up extremely well. There are other programs
that I didn't mention that have to do with the future,
forecasts of the city of Los Angeles in the twenty-first century,

227

and one of the programs is called "Los Angeles 200+20," and

another program is a seminar which will bring together two

hundred leaders from throughout the Pacific Rim to meet and

discuss the most important things of the future of Los

Angeles in its Western Hemisphere position.

LASKEY: Now, will this be funded by the L.A. Bicentennial

Committee, will you continue to do funding?

MARTIN: Yes, it is being funded, and we look to Armand

Hammer of Occidental Oil [Occidental Petroleum Corporation]

to be our major sponsor. He's promised to do that, so it

looks like it's going to be a successful program.

LASKEY: How much of your time in the last three years has

been spent exclusively with the Bicentennial?

MARTIN: Well, I think that it approaches 40 to 50 percent

of my time. It's very interesting. I hope it hasn't been

a burden on Albert C. Martin and Associates. In some ways

it might have been, but in other ways of course

Albert C. Martin and Associates is right out in front in the

minds of the society, everybody knows of the firm these days,

which was not true fifteen years ago.

LASKEY: Really?

MARTIN: Our position competitively was not nearly as strong

as it is today. So I think it all adds up to position the

firm pretty well. But, in any case, I think it's been

worthwhile.

228

LASKEY: As exhausting and difficult as it's been.
MARTIN: Well, yeah, but it's been rewarding too. Everything
that one does has its problems, and we all make it through,
we keep saying to ourselves.

LASKEY: Well, you've done extremely well up to this point.
I'm fascinated still by the idea of a committee as yourself
raising such a large amount of money so successfully in such
a short period of time. Was there just possibly someone
waiting to be asked, in the sense of the city wanting to do
something for itself, or the people — I don't know how to say
this correctly — that this was a source that hadn't been tapped
before, to actually go to these various corporations and ask
for their help in something like this and give them a chance
to participate in this?

MARTIN: Well, there have always been important financial
drives for important projects, like Mrs. [Norman] Chandler
drove for funds for the Music Center, that was an outstanding
event. Then there have been drives for the museums and so
forth. For a large civic celebration this has undoubtedly
been the biggest endeavor and undoubtedly the biggest response.
I think that there is an increasing spirit of the corporate
responsibility, especially with the trend nationally, now, with
President Reagan, to return the responsibility to the states
and the counties and the cities, rather than having the federal
government dominate all the thinking. The subject of corporate

229

responsibility has been really unfolding for the last ten
or fifteen years as a national trend, such as consumer
advocacy and such programs as that. I think we just touched
the tip of the iceberg though. So many corporations that
should have responded did not respond, and the old reliables,
particularly ARCO and the Bank of America and Security Bank,
the big corporate groups, have been very fine in supporting
the program.

Now, we were very nervous for a while because we had
nothing to submit to the press in the way of programs. The
development of programs comes so slowly in an organization
like this because you have to organize your committees first
and you have to go to the people to evolve the programs. So
when you start — and you need money for operations in the
beginning — nobody has ever heard of you. Finally towards the
end they start to recognize that there's a big thing going on.
Therefore the fund drives are really based upon faith and
somewhat on the faith of the success of the committee and
its leaders. As I mentioned, we have some fine leaders on
this committee.

LASKEY: Well, was most of the fundraising done by the one
committee, or did each of the committees do a fair amount of
their own fund raising?

MARTIN: The operation funds was done by the finance committee
under Bob Dockson. Most of the fund raising for specific

230

projects was done through our staff, staff of the Bicentennial,
the lead staff, with the help of everyone. Today I still see
a good reception for helping to fund these things. The
Chamber of Commerce has been slow, but the present leadership
of the Chamber of Commerce in the last two years have been
very supportive of having the chamber take a more important
role. I had a hard time with the chamber because the
leadership of the chamber three years ago did not really
respect the role of the Bicentennial to the degree that I felt
they should. But Bob Dockson and myself and others have kept
at the chamber so strongly that now we have a big effort on
their part to be successful, or to be a successful part of
the Bicentennial. You would think that they would have been
the first ones to step up.
LASKEY: Yeah.

MARTIN: But it wasn't that way, and I lay it to the leader-
ship at that time.

LASKEY: Were they afraid, or didn't they have enough vision
to see what this was going to be?

MARTIN: I think it was at a time when the chamber needed
funds. They actually capitalized on our activities, to our
detriment, which was a very bad thing, and we let them know —
that is, Dockson and myself particularly — really let them
know what we thought they had done. They published a book,
without our endorsement, which should have been published by

231

us or through the chamber with our endorsement. And we
should have shared in the funds, but they took all the funds.
That was really a terrible thing for the leadership to do
that. We finally have overcome that.

As I mentioned earlier, there's going to be, hopefully,
a very major event on September 3 which will be a fundraising
event to secure some funds for the Bicentennial Committee
wrap-up, but a larger amount of funds [will be] for a program
which is related to some of the activities of the Bicentennial;
that is, working towards the future betterment of the city of
Los Angeles. So there's so many stories about the
Bicentennial that are missed here, but one can't cover them
all.

LASKEY: Well, speaking of books, Bicentennial did put out
an excellent guidebook, the LA Access.

MARTIN: Excellent. Yes, and I think the auto club did a very
good job of developing a new map available to the public,
showing two hundred locations of historic importance in the
city. Those maps have descriptive material which illuminate
the important facts about two hundred places.
LASKEY: And the Junior League put out that children's map.
MARTIN: Yes, and I really should know more about that;
there's some good maps.

LASKEY: It's a wonderful map — I've seen it down at the
library — and just very nicely done.

232

MARTIN: One interesting point, I think, that occurred
earlier in our discussions, and I failed to mention our
important history committee under the leadership of
Dr. Doyce [B.] Nunis, [Jr.]. It was decided that there
would be no way that historians could prepare a compre-
hensive revision of the historic background on the city
of Los Angeles, that the historians could help to prepare
material through the activities of the Bicentennial, which
material could then be organized by future historians. I
think that that was fundamentally a good thing, because
when we recall history through a series of events and if
that history is authentic, which is always the danger, and
we watch that very carefully, then those recollections of
so many events become the basis for a new collection and
a new treatise on the history. And I'm sure that a lot of
that has taken place.

LASKEY: Well, the opening of "Spectrum" down at the Plaza
is a wonderful thing.

MARTIN: I think that's one of the finest exhibits that's
ever been assembled. Incidentally, that is one exhibit that
was funded partially by the federal government, the
National Endowment [for] the Arts, I think it is, or
National Endowment [for] the Humanities. The Bank of America
picked up the other half, a total investment of maybe
$200,000. But an outstanding permanent collection. Again,

233

when you think of a permanent collection presented in that
manner, it's an asset that the city now has forever. It
takes an event like this to do it. So, again. Bicentennial
activities have brought much of this to light and into
being. I think the repercussions of the Bicentennial will
be here for a long time.

LASKEY: What will be your repercussions? On September 4,
do you just fold up and come home?

MARTIN: No, I really believe that when we close the office
and turn over the cleanup work to some part of the govern-
ment,. I presume,' or some private organization--it could be
an historic organization — I believe that my activities will
continue on with a knowledge of what was done and what can
be done. And I firmly believe that some of the institutional
things that we're establishing now will demand some of my
time in the future, such as we have set up a process which
hopefully will solve the problem of the planning of
El Pueblo. The process is one of creating a new commission
which is government-private sector. That has now met, and
the entire structure of this has been created by myself and
Jane Pisano as a procedural structure. And it's a very exciting,
well-received process. Well received in the bureaucracy of
the city of Los Angeles, who are enthusiastically trying to
solve the traffic and space problems of El Pueblo and Chinatown
and the Union Station. We have a committee of leaders of both

234

government and the private sector to try to solve, to get
a handle on what the future should be to really make a
cohesive park out of El Pueblo. Principally to reroute
Main Street around it. A very complicated process and not
well received by the bureaucracy of the city, because the
bureaucracy, by its very nature, resists any cohesive or
coordinated action and, by its very nature, supports diverse
type of activity which is hard to bring back into a single
effort.

It's very clear at this stage of society and history
of Los Angeles — and, for that matter, federal government — the
biggest struggle we have, I believe, is the struggle between
bureaucracy and democracy. I mean, the vote of the people
are not really running the government; it's the bureaucracy
that is running the government. That is a big struggle, and
we try to bridge over that by enlisting the support of
bureaucracy through a new kind of organization, which is private
sector-government [cooperation]. That's what we think could
happen, and I think it's an important move towards the future.
LASKEY: What kind of support did you get from the city all
during your tenure?

MARTIN: A very friendly response, but without any kind of
financial support or really staff support. The government —
mayor's office, particular ly--and certainly the councilmen
have been very cooperative with us. The only problem is that

235

they don't do things for us; we had to initiate everything
ourselves- Which is quite related to a political approach
versus a private-sector approach. The mayor couldn't be
nicer and more supportive as long as he was out in front
and doing the talking about "L.A.'s the Place." And that's
just great. But when it comes to trying to underwrite our
activities — And I mentioned that underwriting our credit
would have been a big help in the beginning because we
could have borrowed from private-sector banks if the govern-
ment would have guaranteed us. This was, after all, a city
affair; it wasn't a private affair. It was a citywide affair.
At one time we did secure $500,000 underwriting for a while,
but during the next budget that was wiped out, and so we
came down to the wire several times where we didn't have
enough money for the payroll. And I couldn't go to the
private banks because that would have meant that I personally
representing our committee would be guaranteeing the loan.

To this day tne government hasn't responded to us,
other than to help us go out to the private sector again and
secure enough money for operations. That is probably the
situation in a nutshell. The government just doesn't have
the money today, blaming everything onto Proposition 13,
which I doubt is really the reason. The government has not
reduced its bureaucracy, and it's self -perpetuating to a
great extent. So I'm not bitter, I'm just saying that's the

way it is today.

236

LASKEY: Well, did you run into that bureaucracy when you
were trying to set up events? For instance, did you have
difficulty with the city in — ?

MARTIN: Not at all. They were very cooperative, and we
would have to beg the police department for support. The
mayor's office was always helpful in asking for in-kind
services from the police department, but the initiative was
on our part to organize everything. And really that's
probably the way it should be. Otherwise we would lose the
control that comes through taking the initiative. We don't
have regrets; we just feel that the government was not
really the greatest partner that we could have had.
LASKEY: That's interesting.

MARTIN: I think for the record and if one is looking back
at what the real facts are, it's a peculiar time in the
history of government in the United States. I'm not saying
it's bad, I'm just saying it's being slowly reorganized,
and we will have less bureaucracy eventually, hopefully. But
only if the citizens take the initiative, and that's what
government's all about, always has been. It's what democ-
racy's all about, and it's a strong form of government if
citizens will do it.

LASKEY: Well, I think it sort of implies territorial imperative;
once you have a position or a place, you're reluctant to give

237

it up, and they become entrenched over a period of time.
Don't you find that happens in corporations too that you
deal with sometimes?

MARTIN: Definitely. There's bureaucracy in every kind of
a private corporation to some extent. And I think you've
expressed it well.

LASKEY: So that puts you in a position of having to deal
with all the bureaucracies, then — private, governmental.
Did you feel like you were walking on a tightrope most of
the time?

MARTIN: No, the private sector you can reach because you
can reach the leaders, who are strong. But when you reach
the leaders of government, you're talking to politicians,
who are very careful of their actions, and that's not true
of corporate leaders. That's the big difference. Big
corporate leaders will take an initiative and take their
chances, but not a politician. And politicians do not
control bureaucracy. They're afraid of public exposure to —
LASKEY: Who controls it, then, basically? How does it work?
MARTIN: Well, the very nature of the bureaucracy is that
the departments themselves live within their charter and
their budget and their rules, and they become hard-and-fast,
tight organizations. The only thing they can control in a
bureaucracy is the budget. Of course the mayor and the
council people control the budget, but they have an internal

238

struggle that's horrendous. They try very hard to do a
good job, but they're still politicians, and there's a lot
of patronage between the council people. They just trade
off one for the other, and that doesn't make for good
government. I think, however, that there's strong hope:
I don't feel rebellious at all.

LASKEY: Well, it'll be interesting to see how this plan
for El Pueblo develops — if you really can cut through the
bureaucracy and the red tape to some extent and get some-
thing done.

MARTIN: I think that we can get something done. For
twenty years it's been on dead center, and I think we've
broken through, found a way to break through, and it was
entirely due to Jane [Pisano] and myself.

LASKEY: Do you think that you would have developed that
plan, that you would have gotten involved, if you hadn't
been involved in the Bicentennial?

MARTIN: Oh, I would never have been into it. Even though
we were the architects for the last layout of El Pueblo, we
did what they said. And when I came along with the
Bicentennial activity, I knew what was necessary was a more
drastic solution than what we were doing. Now, whether
that ever comes about or not, I can't tell. I think we're
going to win that one, in time.
LASKEY: But it's just one more of the little waves that are

239

emanating from the Bicentennial.

MARTIN: Definitely. Initiative on the part of the private
sector is the fundamental thing that is necessary to reshape
our cities, and they really need reshaping. The process is
too laborious through our city government; the greatest hope
for reshaping our cities is through the Community Redevelop-
ment Agency, and who has power of eminent domain, by the way,
with the approval of the city council.
LASKEY: Are they the only agency that does?
MARTIN: I believe not, I believe that the Department of
Public Works has it for matters that are related to streets
and lighting and the infrastructure of the city. Then of
course we know that the Harbor Department and the Department
[of Airports] and the Department of Water and Power are
independent agencies; they're departments of the government.
They're autonomous but subject to the approval of the city
council.

LASKEY: Well, now, your being selected as chairman of the
Bicentennial Committee just didn't come out of nowhere. I
mean, obviously you have had a lot of experience in Los Angeles,
and you've had a number of other honors and occupied a number
of other positions of responsibility over the years. You
mentioned the Chamber of Commerce. You were president of the
Chamber of Commerce in 1976, I think it was, and apparently
shook them up considerably in that capacity.

240

iMARTIN: Well, yes, I was president in '76, but I'm not so
sure I shook up any of the procedures. I have been a
critic of the internal immobility of the staff of the chamber
for some time, and I did call for a reorganization of the
chamber from a pure organization point of view; that is, the
subdivision of the various disciplines that are managed
within the chamber. That may have been the contribution.
I think that I have represented small business, if one really
digests it; that the viewpoint of an independent entrepreneur
probably was expressed by my regime as the president. And
that's essential, if one thinks of the board of the chamber
as composed of the presidents of the major corporations.
The major corporations are all large, with a few selected
smaller businesses, sometimes professional — doctors, architects,
and a few others. The position of being president of the
Chamber of Commerce does put you out in front, involved in
civic activities and political activities. That again has to
do with this whole subject of the functioning of the govern-
ment as we know it and the planning the city as we know it.

My brother Ed and I have always done a great deal of
planning as to the evolution of the city, and I think together
we have formulated ideas that are to some extent reflected
today. Matter of fact, Ed was really the editor of a
Chamber of Commerce treatise called "Los Angeles, Financial
Center of the West," It was Ed's editorial activities that

241

made that a very successful document. And all through the
business activities, Albert C, Martin and Associates have
been in the last thirty to forty years the dominant dov/ntown
architect. There aren't any others that have stayed downtown,
and so we have gravitated towards the activities downtown,
pretty much. We have had work for government, like the
Department of Water and Power [Building] , and my father of
course with John Parkinson and John Austin did the City Hall.
I think the Department of Water and Power is one of the most
important buildings we've ever designed. And then of course
we got started with ARCO. Well, we got started with this
building, the Union Bank Square, first, then ARCO, and then
Security Pacific, and then Wells Fargo and Manufacturers Life;
these are all major structures.

But, I guess because of community leadership positions
that I have held several times, heads of appeal boards for
the county and the city, and I was the head of a committee
that rewrote the whole parking ordinance for the city of
Los Angeles. That was an important contribution because of
the direction that the building department was taking. And
if one stays in the action long enough, I suppose you really
help mold the nature of the laws and eventually the planning.
I've always been interested in the planning of the basic city,
the freeway alignments, the lack of a freeway on the eastside
(which was once destined to be called the Industrial Freeway)

242

and the importance of the Fourth Street viaduct. At one
time, years ago, we planned a transportation center to be on
the site of the Union Station, and that's exactly what's
happening thirty or forty years later, thirty years, I guess.
So we've always been in the action one way or the other.

LASKEY: Of course what this has done, it has given you a
tremendous familiarity with the bureaucracy.
MARTIN: Right.

LASKEY: Which puts you in a position of probably dealing far
more effectively with the government than someone who had to
start--

MARTIN: I think that's true. We're respected in the city,
and we are friendly to all the leaders of the city, of
government, and we work with them and such things as that.
LASKEY: Well, in 1971, you were the Man of the Year from
the Chamber of Commerce.

MARTIN: Yes, and I think that had to do with my activities
and being chairman of the committee that we initiated to
rewrite the parking ordinance. I pulled together a whole
series of organizations. It was a committee called
Associated Organizations. We actually wrote the new ordinance
on our own initiative and presented it to the city attorney's
office, who adopted it, and it was adopted by the city. It
was that initiative that made such a change in the nature of
the parking ordinance today.

243

LASKEY: What was that change?

MARTIN: Well, we actually rewrote all the technical parts
of the parking ordinance, which had such things as the
dimensions of ramps and parking spaces, the widths of
buildings, and all of that. We went out and got $25,000,
and we did a professional job and handed it to the city.
They gave us a year to do it. The city council, who was
about to pass a very untenable ordinance, gave us a year,
and we asked for it, and we went out and did it. They
adopted it unanimously and gave us great thanks. I think
that might have been one of the reasons why I was named
the Construction Man of the Year, or something like that.
LASKEY: Well, just previous to that, you had won an L.A.
Beautiful award, or Daisy Award, for landscaping work that
you've done. Now, vie haven't discussed landscaping at all
as an element of architecture.

MARTIN: Well, that is interesting. I'd forgotten about
it really for the moment, but Cleve Bonner of Richfield Oil-
he was treasurer and a very dear friend of Ed's and mine
and perhaps the reason why we designed the ARCO building--
Cleve and myself were members of Los Angeles Beautiful and
a good friend of Valley Knudsen. I suggested to Cleve when
we were remodeling the old Richfield Building (which was
an historic monument, which we later tore down) that he
consider planting thirteen trees around the building in the

244

sidewalk. Something [like] that hadn't been done in the city
for years and years, even though some of the early leaders
of this city were great tree planters, if you think of
some of the residential districts especially. But we
decided to plant trees downtown, and they were so successful,
and the building improved so much from the trees, that a
committee was formed under Los Angeles Beautiful; and by
the time we finished, we had planted close to a thousand
trees in the downtown area, by the persuasion of Mrs. Knudsen,
particularly. But each of those efforts was work. Later
on, because it was so successful, rather quietly, through
the L.A. Beautiful — [tape recorder turned off] Later on,
through the Los Angeles Beautiful, we initiated an ordinance
which caused an assessment district against the properties
for tree planting in the downtown area contained within the
four freeways .

245

TAPE NUMBER: VIII, SIDE ONE
JUNE 2, 1981

iMARTIN: — and we have planted in the downtown area some
30,000 trees, which have helped to recreate the image of
the downtown portion of Los Angeles. As we all know,
downtown Los Angeles was once criticized as being bleak,
and for that matter the entire city had been criticized
for being a series of villages in search of a city. This
tree-planting program that we did through Los Angeles
Beautiful helped to bring cohesion to the whole area.
People forget it now, but actually the nature of the down-
town area, with its trees now, has changed completely.
LASKEY: You mentioned Valley Knudsen; would you tell us
something about her?

MARTIN: Valley Knudsen was the leader of Los Angeles
Beautiful. She was the wife of the founder of Knudsen 's
creamery [Thorkild R. Knudsen] , and she was solicited by
Mr. Earl Grover , who was the founding person of Los Angeles
Beautiful, which was originally a division of the Chamber
of Commerce board of directors. But Los Angeles Beautiful
later became an independent entity, still working with the
Los Angeles Area Chamber of Commerce. So Valley was a very
popular person, very influential with the businessmen of
the city, and a person who perhaps did more than any person

246

in establishing a very strong program for beautif ication
of the city by Los Angeles Beautiful. Her slogan was
"Beauty Is Good Business," and that carried through to this
day. So she is one of the unheralded history-makers of
the city of Los Angeles,

LASKEY: When was this, approximately? I have 196 9, but
I have a question mark next to it. I wonder if it might
have been a little earlier than that.

MARTIN: It was. It was two or three years before we
removed the Richfield Building and started the excavation
for the ARCO Center. It must have been back in '65 or so.
LASKEY: Did you have any problems in dealing with tearing
down the old Richfield Building?

MARTIN: The problem was handled very carefully by
Cleve Bonner and Mr. Bob Anderson, the chairman of the
board. The old Richfield Building was considered to be
an historic monument, and it was a fine building, although
terribly inefficient. So ARCO commissioned an historian
who was well founded in architectural work to do a complete
review, photographic survey, and put together a record of
the character and quality of the building, which today
stands as the principal record of that building. The
entire subject was delicately handled, and there was not
really a public voice from any conservancy group at that
time. The conservancy groups were not nearly as strong at

247

that time as they are today. So the answer is no. We
proceeded to tear the building down and then, of course,
build the magnificent ARCO project, which takes in the
whole city block, and will, I'm sure, be an historic
monument unto itself.

LASKEY: When we were talking about honors and your
involvement with the city, and we talked about some of
your past honors, you have another one coming up next
week, I think, the Spirit of Los Angeles Award that's
being given to you. Do you want to talk about that?
MARTIN: Yes, I do feel honored with that. I'll be the
fourth recipient, I understand, and it undoubtedly is
influenced by my chairmanship of the Bicentennial. But
also it's because it's being given by the Los Angeles
Headquarters [City] Association, and since I have had a
lot to do with the planning of downtown Los Angeles and
many of its facilities, this is being recognized. I'm
told that the mayor will make the presentation, and it'll
be a considerable honor.

LASKEY: What is the Los Angeles Headquarters City
Association?

MARTIN: It is an association of building owners and
property owners that are gathered together to promote
downtown Los Angeles, particularly, as a headquarters
location for major corporations, such as Occidental Oil,

248

ARCO is outstanding. Union Oil, and others of that nature.
It is a promotional effect which I think is quite outstan-
ding, and it's a well-supported group.

LASKEY: Well, you made a point about your having been
involved in so much of the planning of downtown Los Angeles,
which makes me wonder, how do you feel, how does it affect
you, when the buildings that you've built affect the lives
of millions of people, literally, as they have over the
years? How does that thought affect you?

MARTIN: Well, I have a deep sense of responsibility, since
we have had so much to do with the actual design and
construction of many of the buildings. But I think most of
all I enjoy the urban planning aspect of this work, which
has changed the nature of the development of the city of
Los Angeles in an urban sense. Our new work has been
principally of the nature that it is because of the lifting
of the limit height of thirteen stories and the maintenance
of the parking requirements in the building code. The combi-
nation of those two means that the density of building forms
is quite low, like from 6 to 8 percent of the floor area
ratio--excuse me, the floor area ratio is 6 to 8 percent as
a multiplier against the area of the land. So you have six
to eight times the area of the land that you can build into
a building form. But I also believe that that combination,
along with the opportunities that we have had to create these

249

large open spaces and landscape plazas which are likened
unto parks, has completed the urban composition.

If you look carefully at the way the city is now
developing, you find about four major open spaces in this

area other than the Civic Center Mall and the East Mall.
You find the open space to the east of the Union Bank
Square, which is above the auditoriums of the Bonaventure
Hotel, as an open space that will always be there, by law.
It is a dedication of open space that was created for
Connecticut General, who was the owner at the time we built
the Union Bank Building. As it has happened, we have built
the north tower of ARCO, the new Wells Fargo Building, and
of course [John] Portman designed the Bonaventure Hotel
around this space, and it's a notable space in the urban
scene today.

Another space that is hopefully to be maintained is
that which is existing around the Los Angeles Public Library,
and even though there is now a request for proposal to buy
that land, in return for somebody to build a new library,
we hope to maintain that space by our own individual actions,
which involve countermoves and suggestions on our part,
independent of any client, to establish some kind of an
urban molding of space and buildings that will be comple-
mentary.

Another space is the space that we developed to the

250

south of Security Pacific Bank, and this was due principally
to the rules and regulations of the Community Redevelopment
Agency, but there is a huge open space that is permanently
dedicated over the roof of the garages (which happen to be
parks) . Then, of course, Pershing Square is a permanent
space.

There are new spaces evolving. One I'm very excited
about is the South Park plan, which is being developed by
the Community Redevelopment Agency and will bring into the
southern part of the downtown area large parks, around
which will be residential buildings.
LASKEY: Where is that, specifically?

MARTIN: That is, it's aligned to Hope Street, which will
be vacated to the south of Ninth Street or Olympic [Boule-
vard] , I'm not sure which. But it's in process right now,
the first block is, and that's going to become another
great open space. These open spaces and all of the civic
activity that continually develops around such a major
project become dedications of ours, so that we as private
citizens do have an opinion as to how the whole thing is
pulling together. In that sense, getting back to the
original question, the way I feel is that we are really
making strides in molding the downtown portion of the city
of Los Angeles into, I believe, a very, very beautiful,
well-composed business center, cultural and governmental
center, I should say.

251

LASKEY: Do you ever have proprietary feelings about the
city?

MARTIN: I do if they start to impinge upon these motives
that I have had and, to some extent, Ed has had. As I
mentioned some time before, Ed and I have advocated a large
international section, international exhibit and trade
center section, to the south end of the city, immediately
to the north of this new South Park that I just described.
So, yes, if we see things being done that are quite negative
to this urban plan, we subliminally offer alternative
suggestions to see if we can't help to see the city evolve
in a decent sense.

LASKEY: This is a little off the subject we're talking
about, and we'll come back to it, but there's a question
I've always wondered about an architect: When you design a
building for a client and then that client does things to
the building once they move in that you find totally wrong,
do you get angry about it? How do you deal with that, or
do you just have to turn it off and say it's their building,
and you don't have control over it? Is it always your
building I guess is the question I'm trying to ask you.
MARTIN: Well, generally speaking, we have good luck. We
really use all of our influence during the creation of the
designs and the evolution of the buildings, when they're

252

occupied by commercial tenants, particularly. We use all
of our influence to sell the idea that their improvements
should be very compatible with the spirit of the design.
We don't give up easy, and sometimes we're considered to be
fairly rigid in our opinions, not only in aesthetic opinions
but in engineering opinions. We have been criticized for
being difficult to work with, but, on the other hand, that
sometimes is an asset, because we have developed some very
pure buildings, like ARCO, Security Pacific, and certainly
the Department of Water and Power. They are very pure.
Now, there are occasions — One of those occasions,
incidentally, as a matter of interest, happened at
St. Basil's Church, which we felt was a very pure expression
of contemporary thinking in the creation of a church for the
adoration of God and that the idea of imagery within the
church should be very sensitively handled and should be an
acceptable part of the design. Now, that church is homo-
geneous material. It's poured concrete, the aggregate of
the concrete has been exposed by bushhammering, and our
dear friend Monsignor [Benjamin] Hawkes, in his enthusiasm
for the drama, has inserted into the areas of the church
two large, grotesque statues, which are out of harmony with
the design.

LASKEY: Where are these statues?
MARTIN: They're in the foyer, and then one of them is

253

outside, the southwest corner of the parking lot. And they're
just not quite in keeping. And even though we have critiqued
them and he's invited us to critique them, his determination
[has] prevailed. I think that it is a shame to have those
statues in there, because St, Basil's is not a church for
statues or imagery. We have subordinated such things in
that design. We have reflected, and we've created a recep-
tivity for imagination, but not to impose some grotesque
image of a powerful saint into this place of God, So I
think that that is quite a test. We lost the battle, but
it's a case at hand, at least.

LASKEY: The interior of the church has not been harmed?
MARTIN: No, the interior of the church is really quite in
keeping with the way it was designed.
LASKEY: Could you describe it?

MARTIN: The inspiration for the design was a place similar
to the crags of Edinburgh, with vertical cliffs, strong
counterimages of different planes, with the structure of
these walls being such that light was sensitively emitted
into the building, and as the path of the sun traveled
through the dome of the sky, during the daytime in both
winter and summer seasons, the emission and introduction of
light into the church has been carefully handled. Of course,
the windows designed by Claire Falkenstein were created to
complement the swing of the sun; in other words, they were

254

cool colors when the hot sun would pour in and warm
colors on the east side when the sun would be at that side.
These tall, sculptural, concrete forms, with their oblique
positioning paralleling the sides of the nave, complemented
the historic form of the usual cruciform church. Not
exactly, because they're parallel and we do not have a
transept as such. But the handling of the walls in the
section of the altar was very sensitively composed to settle
down the strong movement of the positioning of the walls as
you view the whole church. I think it's an outstanding
piece of sculpture, an outstanding church in every sense.
LASKEY: You have won many awards for it.
MARTIN: Well, it hasn't been submitted to very many
competitions, but we have not won too many awards. There
have been a lot of recognition of the church, but nothing
like an outstanding American Institute of Architects
national award. The publication of the church has been
very subtle, to say the least, and controlled by the
archdiocese. That hasn't really bothered me in any sense,
I know the church is a fine design, and whether it receives
the credit of many organizations, it doesn't bother me.
LASKEY: Well, you have had a long association with
St. Basil's. Did you particularly enjoy doing this one?
I recall from an earlier interview that you grew up near
there.

255

MARTIN: Yes, our homeplace was at 712 South Catalina
[Street], which was a key lot just inside of the corner
of Seventh and Catalina. In the earliest times, probably
in the early twenties, the diocese built St. Basil's Church,
and my father was the architect. It was a temporary church,
built out of half-wood framing, similar to an English
Gothic church, and it was an outstanding church. They soon
grew out of it, and the parish priest was not able to buy
our homeplace for the parish house, and so they moved the
church to Wilshire and Harvard [boulevards]. My father was
still the architect, and an addition was put into the church
at that time. I was starting to be a little active,
especially when the church had a big section of it burn out
and we had to rebuild the church.

Then that same church, which was the parish of
Monsignor [Edward] Kirk, who was noted for his adoration of
the Blessed Virgin Mary and noted throughout the city for
his ability in preaching love and such things, became very
famous and then, finally, just before we started the design
for the new church, it burnt down again, a second time.
We did have, fortunately, a new church on the way. So,
yes, St. Basil's--or as my youngest son, when he was an
infant, said, when he announced that St. Basil's had burned
down, he said, "Mama, St. Bastard's burned down." [laughter]
But anyway, yes, St. Basil's Church was very dear to my

256

family and myself. I was an altar boy there for many
years under Monsignor Kirk.

LASKEY: Speaking of awards and the AIA sort of brings us
back on track of what we were talking about, which is your
involvement with the city and with architecture. You might
want to talk about your involvement with the American
Institute of Architects.

MARTIN: Well, I went through the chairs at the Southern
California chapter of the AIA and finally became the
president. It was, I believe, a very strong chapter, with
an advancing membership, and I believe that it was in very
good condition at that time, better than it is today. The
members were of seemingly more business substance and pro-
fessional substance than we find in the changing membership
today, even though now, today, there is over one thousand
members. The time of leadership and presidency was — It
reminds me of the time today, [because] one of the critical
issues is dues and a dues structure, and I had a lot to do
with the formation of formulas for dues structure at that
time. That lasted clear on through and probably, even
though it has been changed recently, probably will be
returned to my same formulas soon. But that's beside the
point.

I was therefore active in the new organization at that
time, which was called the California Council of Architects.

257

And I became the vice-president of the California Council.
LASKEY: When was this?

MARTIN: I can't remember. In the late fifties, I guess.
And I helped to launch that organization, which fundamentally
was developed for the total advancement of the profession
and for particular attention to detrimental legislation
that was always popping up in Sacramento. We maintained a
legislative advocate for the state group of architects and
established an organization that is very strong today, and
so I was on the fringes of that.

LASKEY: What would you consider detrimental legislation,
for example?

MARTIN: Well, the licensing of unqualified people. For
example, the designers were often people that were not able
to qualify for practice and pass the examination, and so
they would be designing some important smaller work, and
for which they may have been qualified, but certainly not
to hold an architect's license. So they would continually
introduce bills into the legislature which would usurp the
position of the architectural profession. That would be
one case, and then there are myriad of other cases related
to government work, related to the building of a huge
bureaucracy in the state architect's office, which inciden-
tally has now been pretty much abandoned, but at one time
it was a huge bureaucracy, practicing architecture, and that

258

was one of our continual fights.

LASKEY: Now you became an [AIA] fellow in 1955. What does

that mean?

MARTIN: Well, I was the youngest fellow in the history of

the AIA at that time. It means that the peers on a national

level recognized me for the work that I have done, which

includes service to the institute and for design. And it

means that this is the highest honor that you can receive,

other than receiving the Gold Medal, which is given annually

by the American Institute of Architects. It's really an

outstanding senior position. So I was very young to receive

it and very happy about it.

LASKEY: Then you became chapter president about three

years after that, in 1958, which would have been just about

the time that the height restrictions were lifted from the

city. Were you involved in that?

MARTIN: Not very much, not very much. I was in favor of

lifting them, but I don't remember taking any particular

leadership in that event. I was very happy it occurred,

but I was not an instigator.

LASKEY: Well, the architectural milieu of Los Angeles for

a long time was in its houses. Did you find that most of

the architects at that time were designers of houses, as

opposed to large buildings as you do?

MARTIN: With a few exceptions, most of the outstanding

259

architects in the early days were designers of houses,
from smaller houses to large mansions. There was a very
important architectural practice in the design of major
homes here, and there were architects like [Myron] Hunt
and [H. C.] Chambers, Gordon Kaufmann, who later designed
the Times Building, [Irving] Gill, and many others that had
their major practice in residential work. I believe some of
the most capable architects in the country were here in
Los Angeles, as exemplified by the outstanding residential
design that is found in Pasadena and other places. There
were some exceptions to that, such as a firm by the name
of Morgan, Walls, and Clements, and Bob [Robert] Clements is
the successor to that firm today.

There was Claude Beelman, which was once Curlett and
Beelman. And [Aleck] Curlett was related to the young man
that — Oh, I guess it was Curlett that my father invited
down to help him with the design of Grauman's Million
Dollar Theatre. [It was actually William Woolett. — M.L.]
He's a very imaginative designer, later became Curlett and
Beelman, very important architects. Finally, Beelman did
many contemporary buildings.

There was the dean of the profession, John Parkinson,
who I believe had as fine a reputation as any architect in
the city. He was a Scotchman that came to the city, having
a background of millwork, as a cabinetmaker, and he of course

260

became a highly educated architect as he grew into his
professional stature. He had a son, Donald, who later
carried on the practice and was noted particularly for
Bullock's Wilshire,

There was John Austin, another partner of Dad's in
the City Hall along with Parkinson, who was really an
outstanding architect in lots of ways. He was really a civic
leader and was the only other architect, besides myself, to
be president of the Los Angeles Area Chamber of Commerce.
So he had stature and outstanding political connections and
financial connections. He was a very good architect. His
firm later became Austin, Field, and Fry, which still exists
today.

LASKEY: When you came into architecture, you were sort of
at the beginning of the model movement in Los Angeles.
MARTIN: Yes. A movement that was a challenging one, to
say the least, because our training was in the school of
the beaux arts and all teaching at all universities was
modeled after the beaux arts system. In my second year at
the university, USC started the transition under
Dean [Arthur Clason] Weatherhead to branch into the
so-called modern architectural teaching. The inspiration
really came from the European schools principally, although
Frank Lloyd Wright had a lot to do with it: but the Bauhaus,
from Germany; the French school, which supplanted the

261

beaux arts finally under the leadership of Le Corbusier;
the Rome school, that was moving in the same direction of
modernism under some outstanding modern architects from
Italy. (Which is always the case, incidentally.) The Italian
architects were really so sensitive, and are today, really
outstanding designers; and then, of course, our own western
school, which was, as I mentioned before, really the
evolution of the inspiration that emanated from the
World's Fair of 1893, Chicago.

The Chicago school, it was called sometimes, included
the influence of Louis Sullivan and [Henry Hobson] Richardson
and later on Frank Lloyd Wright and others similar to him.
In the local arena, the leader, I think, was [Richard] Neutra,
who was a dear friend of mine — he and his wife — and my wife.
We had many social contacts, and Neutra really was an
inspired architect. He had a hard time locally being
accepted by the established architectural firms, but his
work was outstanding really. His firm still continues
under his son [Dion] .

LASKEY: I think Mrs. Neutra is still alive,
iMARTIN: And perhaps iMrs . Neutra is still alive. They
used to have concerts. I think she played the violin, as
a matter of fact. [Mrs. Dione Neutra plays the cello.

— M.L.]

LASKEY: She was quite a lady, or she is quite a lady.

262

MARTIN: Yes, yes,

LASKEY: Did you ever have any contact v;ith Rudolph Schindler?
MARTIN: Never, never. I knew he was working, and at that
time his work was not recognized for its quality that it
does have. He was there, but I don't think too many people
recognized him at that time.

LASKEY: Did it ever occur to you at that time to go in
that direction of modern housing?

MARTIN: I think that I was always inspired by Frank Lloyd
Wright and am today: the scale of his designs and his
techniques of construction, which of course are completely
homogeneous with the structure and the design, and his
great amount of warmth through his detail. I think he
must be noted as one of the most exciting, interpretive
architects ever existing through time, I would say, Frank
Lloyd Wright truly was a master of ornament and decoration.
Probably more so than Richardson and Sullivan, who were
working in the field of ornamentation in architecture, ,
especially as exemplified in the windov/s of Carson Pirie
Scott and Company in Chicago. But Frank Lloyd Wright, I
believe, would be my principal inspiration for whatever
I did, and perhaps more so in forming a judgment as to
design, which I think, in- self-criticism, I probably have
a deeper feeling for making judgments and appraisals and
guidance of the work of others than actually the development
of designs of my own.

263

LASKEY: I think you said once — in fact, in an interviev/ —
that "my role in the firm is to provide an analysis and
critique of the design of others. I try first to be a
good critic. "

MARTIN: I think that prevails today, although I do not
engage in criticism particularly today. I think that, even
as time goes on, at this age my future will include parti-
cipation in a new thing that David is starting, and that is
a design review committee, chaired by Karl Klokke. That is
just starting up in the firm, so I feel encouraged that
criticism of our designs will be an ongoing process.
LASKEY: What is your role with the firm today?
24ARTIN: Well, for the past two years I've been absorbed by
this Bicentennial thing, and perhaps too much: I don't
know, I've debated that subject. It is a success, and the
firm has received great publicity from it, through my
nejne principally. I'd say my role today is still making
judgments as to problem solving in human relationships and
client relationships and to generally watch the movement of
the firm as it handles its ever-moving problems. The
problems are so similar from year to year, and they are
the same problems that we had thirty to forty years ago,
that I've been there before and I know what some of the
results were.

264

The practice today is considerably different in that
the computer is having such an impact on the development
of our work, and properly so. I mean, all of our standard
details today are stored in the computer, and we press a
button and they appear on a drawing and that's really an
advancement. But I do encourage freedom of thinking, and
if there was a philosophy that's strong in the firm, and it
still prevails, is that we give an opportunity to other
architects to express themselves in the designs that emanate
from the firm, but we very carefully manage those designs
so that they are outstanding designs and exemplify our
own endorsement, so to speak.
LASKEY: How is a design agreed upon? ■' '

MARTIN: The design is agreed upon by the director of design,
which I used to be and David is today. It's a final say
in design, and it's an important role. And we have to watch
it carefully because we have so many people doing designs,
solving architectural planning problems, that the role of
being director of design is critical. We have outstanding
people, like Michael 0' Sullivan, who have an approach that
is a very interesting, earthy type of a pure approach, and
Mike does deserve criticism, but his designs have been very
creditable, and the firm has received a lot of credit for
his work.
LASKEY: Getting back for just a second to Frank Lloyd Wright

265

and your influence by him, were you influenced by the
structures out here? Particularly because most of the
houses that he built he had built in the twenties.
MARTIN: No. I was, I believe, influenced by the work
that he did in Wisconsin, in the northern states. There's
a job I think by the name of "Fallingwater , " or something,
that he did for, I believe, [Edgar J.] Kaufmann, and that
design was less sculptural in its detail than some of his
earlier work, which was influenced so strongly by the
Indian culture of the Americas. But I would say that his
Chicago work was an influence in my thinking,, as was the
work of Sam Marx and Noel Flint, who worked with us on
May Company; I became very strongly aligned to Noel Flint's
work.

LASKEY: Who was Noel Flint?

MARTIN: Noel Flint was an architect who worked for
Sam Marx in Chicago designing such restaurants as the
Buttery in Chicago and the Ambassador East, which were at
the time really magnificent design developments, dovm to
the silverware and the cutlery and things like that. It
was a beautiful influence of design. Noel Flint didn't
live too long, but he really was a great architect.
LASKEY: Are there any architects who are particularly
influential today that come to your mind?
MARTIN: Well, I think that there are young architects that

266

are doing fine work, and I don't really recognize any one
of them as being an inspiration to me . I just know that

the caliber of the work all through Southern California
is ten steps above the caliber of the work when I was
young .

267

TAPE NUMBER: VIII, SIDE TWO
JUNE 2, 19 81

LASKEY: The West is far above what it is in the rest of
the country. Why do you think that is?

MARTIN: Well, I believe that the universities have for the
last twenty to thirty years been teaching a broader concept
of architecture. They've been teaching concepts which
involve the total area of the project, the composition of
all the elements within the master plans of projects, and
the relationship again between space and the building form.
In other words, the accent has been very much on the impor-
tance of space and circulation and relative impacts of
building forms. The accent has drawn away from the structure
of the building to a great extent.

Now, that has been a very disturbing element in the
educational process. As soon as the schools started moving
away from the importance of the structure, the designers
and architects started drifting into more dramatic expressions
of architectural form, which really was kind of a revolution
against the rigidity of the structure as taught and
preached by the Bauhaus . The Bauhaus , as I mentioned before,
was a very strong influence because it was the use of
manufactured materials, like standard beams and steel, and
the expression of those materials within the building. That

268

created great rigidity and duplication in architecture.
As a revolt against that rigidity, the schools were
teaching a freedom of design and a movement away from the
importance of structure, and some very bad things
happened.

The commercial structures — Before that, I should say,
in their search for imaginative solutions, many of the
architects reached back into history and started to adapt
pseudoarchitectural motifs and incorporate those false
architectural forms into the architecture. Now this, I
think, was a disaster, and I'm sure that there's a lot of
work built in Southern California the last twenty years
which is pseudo-Spanish, for example, that will go down in
history as being of no consequence whatsoever. However, as
usually happens, that trend towards eclecticism again
borrowing from other architectural styles and "facadism"
is often found in the thinking of Bill [William] Pereira,
for example, who is a fine architect but engaging in
facadism, the dramatic part of entertainment and the
influence of the movie studios. And the movie studios did
engage in a lot of facadism, because that's the nature of
the business. That had a great impact on the architects
in this region.

Now, again the pendulum keeps swinging, and we are
moving away from, and have moved away from, the pseudo-

269

adaptation of architectural forms into the current
work and have moved in towards something that I believe is
quite homogeneous to this area. It is an architecture
which well exemplifies the nature of the walls and the
windows and the openings, and it includes great considera-
tion to the importation of light into interior spaces, for
the importation of exterior landscaping into interior
spaces, often described in atriums, that are found in most
buildings today. And generally speaking, a much more
honest use of materials. The structure generally is treated
with respect by the younger architects today. Not perfectly,
but it is happening. So I think there is a new architectural
expression that is forthcoming.

Now, how has that affected our recent work or the
recent work of other architects? All you have to do is to
drive through some of the outstanding industrial areas in
the Irvine Ranch area and find some of the industrial
corporate headquarters that are gems of architecture, with
beautiful landscaping and setbacks, and yet in those things,
although they're not manufacturing generally and some of
them are manufacturing of a light nature, we find keen
architectural interest in spaces for people; and perhaps
the expression that is really emerging is [that] the archi-
tecture is becoming much more receptive for the people that
are working and living within those forms. I see a very

270

personal architecture evolving.

Now, the names of the young architects, none of them
have risen to be bright stars, but they're there. And I
think the best work is yet to be done. No question in my
mind that as we move away from the rigidity of the financial
pro forma and enhance our buildings with more personal
spaces, even the commercial buildings, we will find a
different kind of architecture happening. Of course the
greatest influence of all, these days, is because of the
energy shortage and the high cost of materials, the use of
lightweight walls, the development of new modern glasses
that reflect light and heat. And so the energy shortage and
the closer management of light and the abandonment of high
brightness interior lighting is all changing the nature of
architecture. We now really are not illuminating all of
our commercial spaces with bright high-f ootcandle-power
illumination; we are reducing it way down and using local
task lighting to do our work. This saves a lot of energy.
So you can see very clearly it affects architecture.
LASKEY: It also sounds like there's been a complete
reversal of the theories of the Bauhaus and a new humanism
regarding architecture is developing.

MARTIN: I think that that's well said, that humanism is
the word. The Bauhaus, however, I must say, could be very
humanistic. Much more so than the eclecticism which came

271

to bear on architects striving to find something that was
imaginative and yet without having the ability to create or
adapt even very well.

I will say one thing about the refinement of the
beaux arts: that the architects who were highly trained
in that particular school, about the early twenties and the
1910s, did some magnificent work in the adaptation
of the forms and the spirits of the classics, and hence
these beautiful classic homes that you find all over the
nation, with spaces that are inspiring spaces, with elegance
that is not found in some of the humanistic trends. So
that is an era that is gone, but one that will go down in
history as being refinement of the historic styles and so
forth that was notable.

LASKEY: And that's the era your father came out of.
MARTIN: Yes, absolutely. My father came out with appreci-
ation for the refinement of the classical beaux arts schools.
He was influenced considerably, because he was from the
Illinois area, by the more practical aspects, although if
you look at his work he had this great sense of need for
good architecture. And he saw to it that his work was fine.
So it's a great heritage, especially if one really gives the
time to analyze the background and influences of that
heritage, because these architects, and my father and
myself coming along, have been working in the field with a

272

very rapidly changing society. The financial system has
changed considerably. The energy system has changed
considerably. Material supplies and all of these things
have had a rapid transition, and so we have had the privi-
lege of working in that kind of an environment. I think
it's exciting.

LASKEY: Well, Peter Blake, in the book that's an attack
on modernism, called Form Follows [Fiasco] , accuses architects
generally of not testing some of the new materials. How
does A. C. Martin and Associates deal with new materials
and the use of new materials?

MARTIN: Well, we have a strong feeling for quality, and
that implies — and all of our work is this way--implies quality
all through our work. Now, some architects aren't privileged
to deal with quality materials, and they have made do with
other substitutes. I think, however, that most of the
architects that have misused materials just don't know any
better, that they don't have the real fiber within themselves
to use materials properly. The use of materials, I guess,
is one of the most sensitive talents that an architect can
have, and you see many examples of a lack of understanding
on the part of the architect as to what it is really going
to do. Many of them. The fact is you find plaster made
into wood forms and vice-versa. These transgressions are
unfortunate, but that's the way it is with many professions.

273

Some excel and some do not. I have cited that there are
young architects today that are very good, but all of them
aren't very good, and that's been true through history of
course. I think it comes from a real understanding of the
nature of the materials and the nature of the architecture
using those materials. And that is what it's all about.
That I think is a sign of a talented, mature architectural
practice.

LASKEY: Have you had any real surprises in designs that
you've made? For instance, the way a shadow would fall, or
some element that couldn't be designed or built into your
design that has turned out to be especially nice?
MARTIN: Well, I've seen some structural details that were
done for structural reasons that have turned out to be
really beautiful things if one really looks at that detail
and concentrates on it, enhances it. Yes, I'm sure that in
the evolution of designs the creation of space and shadov/
and light always brings a thrill when it comes to pass.
Also, counter to that, when you know you've made a mistake,
it becomes a glaring mistake; something you've done may not
have been quality. Most of the mistakes that I know of
have been more [from] following the trend of doing one part
of a project as an office, let's say, in one kind of an
architectural development and the warehouse portion of it
being of corrugated iron, and there really is no apparent

274

unification between the designs. I'd say that that's v/rong.
We've done it many times, and it's unfortunate, doesn't
have to be that way. The structure of an industrial plant
can be absolutely magnificent.

Matter of fact, I believe the time that a high-rise
building is most exciting is when the frame is up and you
can look right through it. Yeah, like that. [looking out
window] That is very exciting because it's pure. You
know that there it is, it's a structure, and we're going to
very carefully clad it with materials to resist the weather
and, hopefully, not to conceal the structure. In other
words, the building should reflect organism and purity of
structure, which is an old thesis but has prevailed through-
out the practice of Albert C. Martin and Associates. The
structure has to be clean and pure, otherv/ise we have
conglomerate architecture, which generally is a mistake.
LASKEY: How much control do you have over the building as
it goes up?

MARTIN: We have lots of control over the building as it
goes up, yes. Lots of it. And there are trespasses, as
we talked about a little while ago, but most owners that
we deal with will not violently oppose their architect,
because they hired him to be their architect. And when
they venture into architecture, it's usually distasteful,
actually, because they interfere. Now, that doesn't mean

275

that we don't become terribly inspired with our clients,

because we do . It's like Bob Anderson of ARCO and

Herbert Bayer, who is his counsel. Mow, Herbert Bayer has

been one of our greatest advocates and supporters and, at

times, critics. But he's a Bauhaus man, and Anderson is

too .

LASKEY: When you say Herbert Bayer is a Bauhaus man, you

might want to elaborate on that a bit.

MARTIN: Well, he's the last of the masters from the Bauhaus.

LASKEY: He really is.

MARTIN: He's the last living master. And we worked v/ith

Herbert Bayer way before we met him through ARCO. We

worked with him when he was with Container Corporation of

America, and he developed a book for them which was like a

World Book. It [World Geo-Graphic Atlas] had to do with the

geography of the world and the graphic representation of all

the continents and so forth, and that was done under the

guidance of Herbert Bayer.

LASKEY: Well, graphics was his strong point, wasn't it?

MARTIN: Herbert Bayer was really a graphic artist, more so,

I think, than an architect. But he is outstanding, and I

think he is one of the last of the masters.

LASKEY: Now he did the [Double Ascension] fountain in the

plaza, the ARCO Plaza.

MARTIN: Yes, yes. And that has an interesting thing. It was

276

really a collaboration between Herbert Bayer and myself.
I visited with Herbert Bayer at his home in Aspen when I
was trying to solve the problem of getting the approval of
the Bank of America and ARCO for the development of the
plaza. My solution v/as the development of a large fountain,
a circular fountain, which in my mind was representative of
the source, the source of power and the source of water, as
being a motivator. Herbert Bayer accepted that, and he
felt that one of his creations, which was Double Ascension
of the stairs, could float over the pool and create an ever
changing variation in color as they go around and also,
therefore, a reflection of, let's say, an inspired aesthetic
response. We did that together, and I think it's one of the
most successful art forms in the city. Herbert Bayer was
responsible for the Double Ascension sculpture, and then we
actually built it for him and designed it. We have passive
water and we have active water, with great force bubbling
up, and that's all controlled.

LASKEY: That sheath of water that goes over the side, that
almost looks like it's motionless. How did you accomplish
that?

MARTIN: That's passive — Well, it's very interesting. We
made the pool deep enough and we had the source of the water
distributed such that it didn't create any motion in the
water, so it becomes a glassy sheet hanging over the edge of

277

the granite. Whereas then we changed the mode periodically

to be a very vibrant, heavy evolution of water as it comes

up, and I was inspired to think that that had something to

do with the earth and the development of oil and things

like that.

LASKEY: You know, of course, that nobody can look at that

fountain without sticking their finger in it.

MARTIN: It's really a fine fountain. It's well done, and,

as I said, we really were the designers of the fountain,

and Herbert Bayer designed the sculpture. Not any discredit

to Herbert — all the credit in the world, because I think

he's a great artist and a great architect.

LASKEY: That's a great statement about the plaza.

MARTIN: Oh, it is. I think it's just as good as any.

LASKEY: Well, the only other sculpture that I can think of

in the downtown area is also in a building that you did,

which is the [Alexander] Calder [The Four Arches] .

MJIRTIN: Yes.

LASKEY: How did that come about?

MARTIN: Well, that came about by the inspiration of the

of f icers--I 'm not sure which officer--of Security Pacific

Bank. It might have been Fritz [Frederick G.] Larkin, [Jr.].

We had an art committee. It probably was Pat [Oscar T.] Lawler,

who was at that time an executive vice-president and retired,

who had some experience with Calder 's father [Alexander S.

278

Calder] , who was a craftsman that designed and built many
wrought-iron gates. He knew of that history and he knew of
Calder 's success in mobiles and so forth. So that committee
selected this Calder, and I think it's a magnificent piece
of sculpture and very harmonious with the vertical lines of
the building and well placed. And Karl Klokke of our office
had the initiative on that.
LASKEY: Of siting it there?

MARTIN: Of siting it and approving it and things like that.
It's a very good piece of sculpture.

SECOND PART (JUNE 9, 1981)

LASKEY: Mr. Martin, suppose an ARCO or a Security Pacific, a
Department of Water and Power, in their boardrooms decide that
they want a new structure built. How do you get involved in that?
MARTIN: Most of the major projects that we have designed
were awarded to us after rarher intensive interviews of
our thoughts and credentials , and we were compared to other
firms who were generally located in this city, but not
always. There were many cases where firms that are called
national firms are brought in and interviewed. We have been
able to develop a good record, and in the case of the major
buildings downtown, we have been the dominant firm in this
particular period of history. There's, you know, five or
six of the major structures that are credited to our office.

279

We sometimes find ourselves building structures for competing
firms, particularly competing banks, and this is sensitive.
But since our work exemplifies our understanding of what the
client's needs are and what the client's philosophy may be,
we find that our work is everchanging and does harmonize
with the role that the client takes in the whole business
society. In other words, we're not building monuments to
Albert C. Martin and Associates; we really are building
buildings which are reflective of the quality and desires
of our clients. And I think that's been part of our success.
Our work has been quite varied, but very sensitive, as it
molds into the overall urban scene.

After we are selected, we spend a great deal of time
programming the work in a written and sometimes illustratied
format to try to understand clearly the role that that
particular corporation plays in the business or society of
the city. There are many important things, such as image,
such as the placement of the building form within the over-
all space of the city, questions related to long-term
expandability and flexibility; there are practical things,
such as the resistance to seismic movements, the foundation
conditions, the inclusion of artwork within the environment,
and an endless list of matters that need a firm decision on
the part of the client. Once this program is adopted by
the client and approved by its board of directors usually.

280

we then can plan the first schematic solutions to what we
believe that program is calling for. This is an exciting
part of the whole process and one which the client inter-
faces with us on a very close basis. And of course, as the
work progresses, there's estimating and there's engineering
and there's a great deal of detail work related to tenants
in the building and department layouts and so forth.
LASKEY: Do you have an initial design concept in mind
before the firm accepts you, or does that come later?
MARTIN: We have often developed initial concepts to present
to the client. That's a touchy point in that some competing
architects might consider that free services, but when we
talk to the board of a company we generally like to know
about the nature of their work, otherwise we're not very
convincing. Which leads us to do some thinking about that
prospective client, and, like in the case of Security Pacific
and the Department of Water and Power, we actually build
small scale models of what it might be, and I think those
were very convincing, and I think they were very proper to
express ourselves.

LASKEY: Well, something like the Department of Water and
Power, did you then have to deal with many agencies in the
city, to get their OK on the building?

MARTIN: Yes, we had to deal primarily with the Civic Center
Authority, which was a group of assigned professional staff

281

from each of the entities that participated in the Civic
Center Mall, most of them aligned to the county as well as
the city, and one representative of the American Institute
of Architects, in those days. I don't believe that's true
today. In my estimation they could stand one. [laughter]
Also, the interdepartmental relationship is pretty well
expressed in the form of a written program, either prepared
by ourselves or other consultants that do this work
specifically .

LASKEY: Is it more difficult working with the city or
with a governmental agency than with a private agency?
MARTIN: I would say it's more difficult because we are
working with members of a [governmental] bureaucracy rather
than a private bureaucracy, and there is a difference. As
I've said at other times during this discussion, the
bureaucracy within the governmental agencies today is one
of the biggest problems that society has, because they do
not have any cohesiA/e role with other bureaucracies leading
towards the resolution of a single problem. They operate
on their own, in accordance with their own rules, and
that's fundamentally why it doesn't work.
LASKEY: Let's talk specifically about the Well Fargo
Building, since that is one that is just about finished.
How did you start with Wells Fargo?
MARTIN: We started with a very close contact with the

282

Community Redevelopment Agency, who had some basic require-
ments for circulation of people in this particular location
of Fifth and Flower [streets], which is becoming a point of
transition between lower Los Angeles and upper Bunker Hill,
The base of this building is designed for a very strong
pedestrian movement up through the building in an open
colonnade, which is unlike most buildings, that are all
enclosed in the ground levels. So this building has open
colonnades with open escalators, strong landscape features,
including an attractive waterfall, which will be in the upper
plaza, up in the--let's see, Hope Street elevation. And so,
being open, it's also going to be landscaped with groves of
tall Riverside palms that we have purchased out in the
vicinity of Van Buren [Boulevard] , where the old English
settlers settled into Riverside. They're beautiful
specimens, so they'll be brought into the city and planted
down there.

LASKEY: Nov,-, did you have much trouble in convincing
Wells Fargo of this design?

MARTIN: Well, the real control on the design of the building
was with ARCO, who owned the land, and the ARCO Foundation,
which supports their retirement program, owns the fee of
the land, and ARCO retained control and approval of the
design. Now, ARCO was very cooperative with us, and we were
sensitive to their feelings. Wells Fargo is a tenant, and

283

so the building is really being built by Rockefeller
Realty Corporation, who owns it. So our principal point of
satisfaction on the design features was with Rockefeller,
with secondary approval by ARCO .

We advanced the idea that the building should be
stainless steel, and there's no other stainless steel
building in the city. We knew that, cost being a factor,
it'd be difficult for us to discover a kind of wall panel
for the outside, that we could use very thin stainless steel,
However, we did, and we designed a stainless steel cover
over a cellular core, which is actually called a honey-
comb core. And I believe as the building is emerging, it's
really quite effective, even though there are small ripples
that can be seen at certain times of the day. It's a very
clean building, it has a great deal of depth, and it is,
incidentally, the most important building that David Martin
has designed. The authorship of the design is his, and the
determination of all the detail and the artv/ork has been his
responsibility. So I believe it to be a very great success,
and I believe that the tenant, Wells Fargo, does appreciate
the building now more than in the beginning; they were
worried about the ripples. But I think they really like
that building. Of course it does a wonderful job of being
complementary to the whole space development in that
vicinity.

284

LASKEY: Now, I think you mentioned before there's going

to be a pedway that connects the building across

Flower Street?

MARTIN: Yes. There is a connection across Flower Street

to the Bonaventure Hotel, and that, incidentally, hooks up

with the bridge that we have constructed between the

Bonaventure Hotel and ARCO Plaza. So the pedestrian

circulation links well through the area, and that,

incidentally, is part of the requirement of the

Community Redevelopment Agency, the master plan for

Bunker Hill.

LASKEY: Well, was the idea of the landscaped plaza, was

that David's too?

MARTIN: Yes, the palm trees — all those ideas have emanated

from his hand, you might say, and so it's a great pleasure

for the firm and for him.

LASKEY: To backtrack just a bit in the Rockefeller-

ARCO-Wells Fargo triangle, that brings up the subject of

financing. How is a project as large as that financed?

It must be very complicated.

MARTIN: I'm not certain of all the intricate financial

arrangements. I believe Rockefeller has financed it with

conventional financing. Undoubtedly they have a very

strong portfolio of assets, which would make financing

such a building not too difficult. They will have over

285

$100 million in the project eventually. I hear that they
consider it to be one of the best investments of all their
investments throughout the United States, and I hope that's
true. But they're pleased with the building.
LASKEY: Now, what are these ripples that you have talked
about? Is that on the coating on the stainless steel?
MARTIN: Yes, the stainless steel, which is the outside
skin of a large prefabricated panel, is less than a sixteenth
of an inch thick and it is cemented to an impregnated honey-
comb core, which is similar to that which is being used in
aircraft design. On the inside of the panel is a regular
steel sheet, and these materials are clamped together to
form a sandwich construction. That sandwich panel is then
fitted into some aluminum extruded frames, which also contain
the glare-reducing glass. In that case we have double glass
with a vacuum on the inside, so that there's less direct
transmission of heat. We have radiant heat, but convected
heat is eliminated by this double pane of glass. So in the
process of laying on the thin stainless-steel exterior sheet,
which is highly polished, there is a lack of perfection,
especially for a mirror-like material, where any kind of a
distortion will cause uneven reflections. This is true in
any polished building. ARCO, for example, has a great deal

of unevenness if you're looking for it. Most people don't
know it because they're not looking for it. But the very

286

nature of stones being erected one on top of the other, or
the very nature of a mirror-like surface, if there's any
unevenness you can discern it. So we were very sensitive to
that, and we think this has come off quite well, really, and
will withstand a lot of time.

LAS KEY : Now, David designed the building, and your engi-
neering department perfected the techniques. ARCO and
Rockefeller accepted. How do you get it built, the actual
building?

MARTIN: Well, in this case the general contractor is Tishman
Construction Company, and at the time we started the building,
Tishman Construction Company was owned by Rockefeller Realty,
as well as Cushman and Wakefield [of California, Inc.], which
is still owned by Rockefeller. So the team was kind of a
family team. In the process, however, of doing the job,
Tishman Construction Company was bought back by John Tishman,
Abe Bolsky, and some others. So that it it now independent
of Rockefeller. However, they're still the general contractor.
LASKEY: How important is the choice of a general contractor?
MARTIN: Well, I think extremely important. There's some
contractors that are much easier to work with — that is, our
organization with theirs--and we have always had some
difficulty working with the Tishman organization through the
years. They're New York-oriented and very tough and very
ruthless, whereas people like Turner [Construction Company],

287

or [C.L.] Peck [Contractor], or in former days William
Simpson [Construction] were really more reasonable in
their activities, which brought in so much cohesiveness
as necessary. Tishman will do a fine job, they're a fine
concern, but there's a great difference between firms. So
we establish our preferences, but we'll work with almost
any of them that have the ability to do such a major project.
LAS KEY : Is it usually your choice?
MARTIN: Very seldom is it our choice.
LASKEY: Really!

MARTIN: We recommend a list, and we sit in judgment often
with the owners, and we lead the discussion in many cases
of the characteristics and qualifications of the proposed
contractors. And we may make a recommendation that the owner
may follow, but not always, not always. There may be some
other connections that will be more important in regards to
that very big decision.

LASKEY: What about collaboration with other firms? Is that
something you try to avoid?

MARTIN: Well, we have through the years resisted collaboration
with other firms, and the resistance emanates from several
points of consideration. I'd say the most important is that
most architectural firms have a tremendous pride of author-
ship of the design, and that pride then filters through the
entire organization, and hence it is with us and with the

288

others, the other architects or architectural engineers that
we might consider collaborating with. So many cases we're the
only truly integrated AE [architecture-engineering] firm, and
when we tie up with another architect, the only thing he can
contribute is architectural design, theoretically. So that
makes a rather limited choice on our part, because we can
contribute both architecture and architectural engineering
and our other kinds of engineering. However, we say to
prospective collaborators that we will either be a consultant
to them or they will be a consultant to us. Very seldom do
we advocate joint ventures, which are frowned upon by our
liability insurance company because of split assets as
security for the policy. So we are very selective, really,
with those that we agree to consult with. Generally speaking,
it's our opinion that the major work and major design process
has to be undertaken by one firm or the other, and so that
guides us in our discussions.

289

TAPE NUMBER: IX, SIDE ONE
JUNE 9, 19 81

LASKEY: Are there any collaborations that you have done
that have been successful?

MARTIN: Well, in the design of the Union Bank Square, which was
designed originally for Connecticut General Life Insurance Com-
pany, we were associated with Wally [V^;allace K.] Harrison and
Max Abramovitz of New York. They were part of the architec-
tural team that designed the United Nations and were close
to the developers of this building, Galbreath-Ruf f in
[Corporation] . We found that collaboration to be a great
pleasure in every sense, and Max Abramovitz and his staff
were the principal originators of the design of this building.
We had one of our staff with them in New York during crucial
times, and then we did all the working drawings and basic
engineering, other than the mechanical engineering, which was
done in New York. It was a fine collaboration.

Another major collaboration we had was with Charles Luckman
and Associates on the Cedars-Sinai Medical Center. I would
say it was a very good collaboration, even though we ended up
with difficulties between the two firms because we were all
sued by the owner finally, as well as the contractor, in
major lawsuits.
LASKEY: Resulting from what?

290

MARTIN: From claimed errors and omissions, and we felt,
that is, Charles Luckman and ourself felt, that the ownership
of the Cedars-Sinai hospital was very unfair in their
perspective. The basis of their claims were the documents
that I myself prepared to enlighten them as to the extent of
omissions that might have occurred, and they turned that
around and sued us with our own list. In a job that size we
always have errors and omissions. We go into the job warning
the owner that in a building where there may be ten thousand
decisions made by our staff, all related, that sometime there's
going to be an error or you might omit something. So even
with that kind of a background, these days you have to be
careful that you're not sued on almost every job. It's just
like the state of the medical profession, it's exactly the
same way. It's an unfortunate condition, and we had that,
and it was very bitter. But my reaction was that it was a
good collaboration with Charles Luckman and his group. They're
very capable, and even though we were estranged it was still
a very good collaboration. We did 99 percent of the work
maybe, or something like that, but that didn't mean that they
didn't contribute greatly.

Other associations are of very little consequence in my
mind, and we do not generally practice with this kind of a
business arrangement.
LASKEY: Well, the Cedars problem brings up another question:

291

Clients pick you; do you ever pick your clients?
MARTIN: Oh, we still are running all the time trying to get
work, I would say. It's a work ethic that's not particularly
relaxing, that we try to get every major job. We miss a lot
of them, but we do pretty well, too. So the spirit of compe-
tition prevails strongly in the architectural profession
today. We do our share of it.

LASKEY : Have you ever turned down a client?
MARTIN: Yes, we have, and generally because the client
indicates that he either doesn't understand the process, or
he may possibly be a client that we know is not going to be
a good client, that he may have characteristics that indicate
to us that trouble is on the horizon. And so, yes, occasionally,
not very often. •' '

LASKEY: What is a good client?

MARTIN: A good client is a person that really, in all
truthfulness, will join with you in an understanding way to
see that the building gets done well. A client that can make
a decision and stick with it and a client that pays his bills
on time. So those things probably, in that order, and of
course there are magnificent clients around, especially the
big corporations, like ARCO, Security Pacific, they pay their
bills and they pay them on time, and they do engage in the
process with you in a very businesslike way. All clients
aren't like that.

292

LASKEY : With ARCO , for example, speaking of internal politics,
do you have to deal with a number of agencies within ARCO,
or do you deal with just one board?

MARTIN: We deal with many of their agencies within their own
organization, because, as I mentioned, we must first draft a
program of needs, and those large corporations have departments
that are constantly describing and summing up the required
facilities. So we usually end up with a branch of the facil-
ities development group within the corporation, and our staff
works with their staff over a program. Now, some of them are
very sophisticated, some of them have some very strong proce-
dural techniques that often clash with ours, and it's a give-
and-take, but most of our clients end up to be good clients.
LASKEY: You said that Wells Fargo is going to cost in the
area of $100 million.
MARTIN: Yes.

LASKEY: That's a lot of money. What size — What I'm trying
to do is to relate the size of a project like that with the
size of your firm. How large is Albert C. Martin and Associates
right now?

MARTIN: Albert C. Martin and Associates now has a staff of
a little over three hundred people. We have offices in
Los Angeles, where the headquarters is. Orange County, Houston,
and New York. The New York office is an office that we
acquired when we once acquired Morganelli-Heumann [and Associates],

293

an interiors firm, which we later sold back to them, just
to get rid of it. But we kept the New York firm, which is
Kenneth Pfeiffer and Fidel Miro [Associates], who are planners
of department store interiors. They're one of the best
interiors planning and merchandising firms in the United
States. They do good work, they are barely profitable most
of the time, and we like them very much. They're controlled
by us completely, but we do not, because of the distance,
interfere with their design approach. It is a bit of an
arm's length arrangement.

Houston we do control stringently, because it is an
architectural engineering office, and we have some good work
there, hopefully good enough, with good enough management to
make a go of it. Our thesis is really that Albert C. Martin
and Associates will function in the future generally along
the Houston-Los Angeles axis and that, since Houston is the
gateway to the Gulf [of Mexico] and South Ajnerica and Europe,
and Los Angeles is the gateway to the Pacific, that the
influence of business will probably flow that way, you see.
It's a Sun Belt kind of an approach. And we have guided our
moves to some extent based upon that thesis. I think it's
sound, and I think it will, in the long-range future, show
up very well.

LASKEY: How long have you had the Houston office?
MARTIN: About four years. It's a small office.

294

LASKEY: Was that your decision, then, to open the office?
MARTIN: Well, when we bought Morganelli-Heumann they had
a Houston office. That's one of the reasons we bought them,
so that we could go to Houston with an established office.
That didn't work out very well, because we closed down the
interiors part of Morganelli and Heumann and opened up an
architectural engineering office. So it's been a struggle,
but I think we're making it now. We believe it's going to
be good. , " ■ '

LASKEY: And Orange County, is that particularly an industrial

concept?

MARTIN: No, Orange County is general practice. It's strange

that we should have an office in Orange County, which is so

close to Los Angeles, but there's a lot of people in the

Orange County area that are provincial, and Los Angeles is

just a long ways from Orange County, we find. The Orange

County office is really very successful today. Small, in

that there's probably twenty-five people there, but we think

it'll be all right. We do much of the work from Orange County

in our Los Angeles offices, like engineering work.

LASKEY: Now David is your son; we were talking about David

earlier .

MARTIN: Yes. •

LASKEY: And David and your nephew Christopher and your brother

Ed, and yourself of course, now are the four main partners in

the firm.

295

MARTIN: Four partners, yes. And I believe that it's really
a very good partnership. David and Chris get along v;ell.
They have been given authority to take initiatives and to
keep things whipped into shape, and since I'm at the age of
sixty-seven at the moment and Ed is coming along, we want
them to be in charge as early as they can take it. Because
it's a big responsibility, both professionally and financially.
So I think the partnership will work well. We at one time
considered taking partners in who were not members of the
family, and we immediately found a contest amongst our
principal staff that was very negative, and they were all
striving to be the principal people, when they didn't really
have to be. We finally said, "Lookit, we are going to be a
family-run firm, as we always have been, and we're going to
have a very fine environment for our principal staff." We
set a business principle many years ago that in effect said
that 40 percent of all the profits of the firm will go to the
employee group in the form of profit-sharing retirement trusts
and bonuses, and we have adhered to that all through these
years. Sometimes it's been fruitful for those that have earned
it, and sometimes it has not been all that great. However,
the associate group, and there's about thirty-five or forty
associates in this firm, seems to be reasonably satisfied with
the compensation aspect. I think the most important thing is

296

the development of a strong feeling of loyalty amongst the
members of the firm, the staff, so that they are happy with
their pursuit of their profession. It seems to be working
quite well now, although there have been some rough roads.
LASKEY : I can imagine. Was there much indignation or
apprehension when David and Christopher were brought in,
because of their being young?

MARTIN: David is considerably older than Chris (I think about
six or seven years older) , and David earned his way into the,
let's see, acceptance by the senior members of the firm by
being a very capable designer and a very capable person, who
is able to analyze and with firmness work with all the rest
of them. And I made it very clear from the very earliest
times that David would become a partner; there was never any
question about that, so they all knew. In other words, that
was extremely important that those that were not going to be
partners, under the arrangement that I spoke of, recognized
that he was going to be a partner and he would be their boss
someday, in effect. The same thing came along with Chris.
We made it real clear. And with that kind of positiveness
I think it's been well accepted.

LASKEY: You had said that you could never imagine not being
an architect. Did David feel that way?

MARTIN: Oh, he always was destined to be an architect; when
he was a boy he used to build and design cars, and he still

297

does, and races them. But he always was really a fine
designer, able to create form and mechanical aspects. Chris,
I don't know about that, but Chris is a very capable architect
and good in settling problems on jobs, and. that will be his
dominant role, I'm sure.

LAS KEY : Well, with yourself and your brother, your brother
is more--his forte is more engineering, as I understand that.
MARTIN: Originally. He is an engineer, and as we've gone
through time and our organization has changed, we finally as
partners adopted a certain area of the business that each
partner would be in charge of. Like I'm in charge today of
client relations, which includes marketing. Ed is the
operating manager today, and he has total responsibility for
doing that. David is manager of professional affairs, which
has to do with procedures and policies and so forth, and Chris
is a project director and working on some of our most impor-
tant projects. So as partners we have special assignments,
and it seems to be working quite well. Now, since there's four
of us, it's not quite so much an elbow-to-elbow relationship
like Ed and I have had through the years, but a meeting of
four partners periodically, and we do have substantial
meetings.

LASKEY : You said you were sixty-seven; do you see yourself
retiring at all?
MARTIN: Well, I can see when I've finished with the Bicentennial,

298

there'll be another look at it, and I really don't want to
completely retire, that'd be ridiculous, I believe. But I
certainly am going to have to take it easier, because I find
myself really exhausting all of my energies with all this
activity. So I suspect that in another four or five months
I'll start thinking of a reduced workload, but maintaining
more and more client contact where I can do the most good.
LASKEY: And then Ed would be —

MARTIN: Ed will continue with his management, and the
boys are coming on a fairly well defined program of picking
up some of the management operations detail, and Ed will
probably gravitate more to the overall financial aspects.
We have a lot of different organizations that we have, Ed
and I do. And agriculture, he runs a cattle ranch--
LASKEY: Oh, he does!

MARTIN: Yeah, he has a big spread, he leases land; he used
to own it. He always has about four hundred, five hundred
head of cattle,
LASKEY: Really.

MARTIN: And he likes horses. So we have some property
interests; the biggest one is the ranch at Riverside.
That is large and very valuable, very slow and tedious type
of development, which is under my wing, incidentally. But
we have many properties, most of them very slow in their
movement, valuable sure, you know, like property at Sunset

299

and Beaudry [Avenue]. There are two blocks of land, they're

worth $4 million, and people once in a while hint at paying

us that; so one of these days we'll sell that.

LASKEY: Sunset and Beaudry, now your original office, or one

of your offices, for a long time was on Beaudry. Is that the

land?

MARTIN: Yes. Well, we really leased that to a developer,
and right now it's leased, and he has an option to buy it.
We had to make that move because we were so much in debt
at the bank, and so we had to sell the property to bail out,
really, and it did [sell]. We sold it for $1.76 million and
bailed out of the bank, got the load off, and so we had to
sacrifice that very fine asset.
LASKEY: This was in 19 60?
MARTIN: No, it was 19 74 and '5.
LASKEY: Really I That recent.

MARTIN: We had a large office. We bought Morganelli and
Heumann, and lots of things really turned wrong. So there
really is a huge demand in running a firm like this for
working capital, just huge. Like at least $4 million in
working capital to run this place. That is something that's
always on our back; we can't get out of the bank, you know,
and all the old story. My mother heard it from my father,
and it's not much different. But we were not too discouraged.
But it's not easy, it's a very difficult financial business to

300

run a shop like this. You can operate different kinds of
firms and do it easier.

But when we have all the things we're doing — like
computer development, we're one of the leaders in America in
the development of computer sciences. As a matter of fact,
the navy department is just about to buy our proprietary
program that we use for drawing plans on computers for $300,000.
Then the government will own one copy that can be used by
government services, and we will still own the basic proprietary
set of programs. So you can see how advanced it is. And
those things, the decisions on how much we expand in research
and development of the new computer sciences, are decisions
that are costly, are large-risk; they're fun and all of that,
but we run a pretty risky shop sometimes, the way we manage
things. It's not like selling some product; it's the
discovery process, it's the promotional process, paying for
development of programs.

LASKEY: Well, you must also develop a lot of programs or
projects that never see the light of day, too.
MARTIN: Yes, some of our projects-- Do you mean programs,
or are you thinking of computer now?

LASKEY: No, what I'm thinking of is that you design a building,
or you design a complex, and you put all of your time and
effort into it, and then it doesn't get built.
MARTIN: Oh, yes, that happens every once in a while, for one

301

reason or another. The corporate-financial world, I say
corporate-financial, today moves so fast that many large
organizations have great success and great failure, and
papers are full of it every day. And we're no different.
We can have wonderful luck with our buildings, and we can
really have some failures. So it's the pace that has
changed so considerably. And you really have to be alert
and measure every decision. So it's all right, that's the
nature of the thing.

LASKEY : But it keeps you living on the edge all the time.
MARTIN: You're always living on the edge. Of course I
think the practice of architecture, especially, keeps you on
the edge anyway, because keeping clients happy and making
certain that your decisions are proper is a very difficult
process. And bureaucracy creeps into your own organization:
you know, people that aren't thinking and causing you damage,
and you can't keep track of it all. It's too big.
LASKEY: Well, when you're caught, too, I would think,
between having an established team that you can depend upon
and having creative input, that you don't have a team that
becomes tired.

MARTIN: Yeah. Well, the creative input, every building is
kind of exciting. Sometimes the engineering systems become
somewhat routine, somewhat. But the design, architectural
design systems never do. That's the thing about architecture

302

There's never two buildings that are alike nor two client
relationships that are alike. And it really is a very
interesting profession. People drift in and out of it all the
time. And there ' re not many firms that keep the pace that
Albert C. Martin and Associates keeps. Our pace has been fast
for all these years.

LASKEY: Well, your father began the firm in 1906 or 1904?
MARTIN: [In] 1906. He came here to the coast
in 1904, and he married my mother in 1907; but I think that
was right after he obtained the position of principal designer
for the Hamburger store, working for [A. E.] Rosenheim, and
that led him to the account, the Hamburger, and then the
May Company account, amongst others. So the firm, even
though it's had its ups and downs, through the now seventy-
five years, it has always been pretty active. And we've always
had a good reputation. Once in a while we slip a little bit,
and we really get excited and start to shape up.
LASKEY: Is there any architectural firm in the city that
has a comparable history?
MARTIN: No, we're the oldest.
LASKEY: That's what I'd think.

MARTIN: Yeah. Now, the others don't really come close to
us. Sure, there are some of them [which were] started after
the V^Jorld War II, but-- Well, there's Bob Clements, whose
father was an architect, Bob's still going; but if you look

303

around there are very few firms today that didn't start until
after the war.

LASKEY : What do you see, since you've been so involved in
Los Angeles and the way it looks, as the future of the city?
MARTIN: Well, I believe that the city will densify
considerably, and there will be a lot of multistory apartment
complexes and condominiums in some cases. I see, hopefully,
the development of a different type of village plan, little
small community plans, little cells of community life, located
in the various segments of the city, and they probably will be
related to the centers of transportation. I think the smog
situation will clear pretty well.
LASKEY: How will we do that?

MARTIN: Well, the perfection of the gasoline engine, for one,
and then perhaps another form of power generation is on the
horizon. There are lots of hope that there will be power
generated from some process of atomic development wherein
we'll have adequate power to drive various vehicles.
LASKEY: Really.

MARTIN: But that's out thirty, forty years. But I can't
believe that there wouldn't be that, because the gasoline
engine has been perfected through the last fifty years, sixty
years, to something that's highly refined. Well, we all know
that we're running out of fuel, and another form of fuel,
whether solar energy or nuclear energy, is out there to have.

304

And I think it will be commonplace. So driving transportation
vehicles, of whatever nature, I think we'll be on a much
freer basis.

And I don't know whether we'll ever get free of gravity,
but any development like that is going to be sensational.
Obviously we're on the fringes of that in our space program,
which is very exciting, to be free of gravity and drive those
space vehicles without any pull. All sorts of things are
happening there now, things that we don't even conceive of.
There's no question in my mind that there will be space
cities, bases out in space, where people will live and work
for certain specialized work, because it's all so easy to do.
That's really a long-range and exciting thing, and it will
be designed probably by special architects.

LAS KEY : I was going to say, what's the role of the architect
in this future?

MARTIN: Well, I think that there is a role. He's a different
person, he will ba . But somebody has to design things, and I
believe those that are trained in the management and design
of space and form will be the ones.

In the immediate future, of course, there's Los Angeles
being the financial center of the Pacific Rim and of the West,
and it's there now. There's a great deal of activity and
many, many jobs and pretty good weather. And it's going to
densify more and more and more. We'll need more transportation

305

and transportation centers, whatever kind, you know, whether
it's subways, fixed rail, modest type of helicopter. I think
that will all happen, but it'll be different. And it'll
still take firms like this to do it.

LASKEY: I think that we've pretty much covered the history
of A. C. Martin.
MARTIN: OK.

LASKEY: We've talked about your father and his coming out,
and the past and your growing up and the development of the
firm, and the future. I wonder if you have anything that you've
thought about that we haven't covered that you'd like to get
on the record, that you'd like to say.-

MARTIN: Well, I suppose that we'd have to gravitate away
from the day-to-day happenings. As I hope I've indicated,
I think there is really a fine development for men in this
particular urban element and in the education of man,
children and all of that. I firmly believe that there are
strides being made now, especially with the integration of
different ethnic groups into this West Coast. They're here,
and we're conglomerate. It's not easy to bring common
understanding of different issues of society, but that's
what it's going to be. There will be a lot of very fine
training of youth into the ways of society. This is exempli-
fied in the Bicentennial very clearly, where we have made
such an issue of the training of children and the weaving

306

together of certain kinds of ethnic relationships, friendli-
ness at least. All you have to do is look at the man on the
street in downtown Los Angeles today and you find that they're
of some other foreign background, practically everyone. You
walk into the elevator lobby of this building and you may
not see a person of, let's say. Christian background at all.
Or white. So it's happening very fast. So therefore I do
think we have lots of changes of government, but that every
country does. I hope we can conserve our natural resources
and stay industrious as a nation, especially on the West
Coast.

LASEKY: Well, you've lived in Los Angeles for sixty-seven
years. That's a long time to live in this city particularly.
MARTIN: Yeah.

LASKEY: I just wondered if you would give some impressions
off the top of your head, the things that come to your mind,
the remembrances, or changes.

MARTIN: I'm always impressed at how sophisticated the people
were at the change of the century in Los Angeles; that is,
the business leaders and the social leaders and their society.
I'm very impressed, even though the automobile was just
showing up on the horizon, at the cultural things that took
place, and the architecture, the development of fixed-rail
streetcars. Pacific Electric — those were new developments.
The wealth that was generated by some of these pioneers.

307

absolutely amazing, and there were people before that, like
the Bannings and some of the Huntingtons and so forth,
people that were really adventurers with great foresight.
Great foresight. I mean, the idea of [William] Mulholland
going up into the [Owens] Valley, up into the Sierras, and
bringing water that distance is unbelievable, but they did
it. So, all in all, I'm always amazed at how sophisticated
they were in practically every aspect of social and business
life. Sure, we have changed with communication, principally.
I think the big change is communication, because of the TV,
radio, and all of that, and now computers. And the war did
so much of that. It brought forth the space program promoted
by President [John F.] Kennedy. Really changed the nature of
the world. So one sees all those things, and yet the substance
of the mind of the individuals today is about the same, as I
see it, the intelligence level, even though we have more
resources to draw from. I'm always amazed at the advanced
state of the society here in Los Angeles in the change of the
century.

LASKEY : Well, it was a very wide open city that you grew up
in, especially in the thirties, with Aimee Semple McPherson
and the various political organizations, like EPIC [End
Poverty in California], and a whole different world really
out here than it was in the eastern, middle western part of
the United States. Do you think that influenced your
architecture at all?

308

MARTIN: I have a feeling that my period of design — where I
was half- trained in the beaux arts and then gravitated toward
the more contemporary design at that time, in 19 36 and '7
when I graduated-- that in some ways that was a weak period
of design development here. Sure, we did some good work, but
if you think of some of the magnificent classic things that
were done before that, and I know they were borrowed and they
were eclectic, but there was a lot of work done in urban
buildings, like downtown Los Angeles, that were indeed
advanced in their own sense. And I think we lost a lot of it.
The Depression took a lot of spark out. For one thing there
was no money, and the war destroyed the architectural practices
that were remaining here. It wasn't until after the war when
the great exodus from the city and the highway syste.m came
along and shopping centers and great residential building
programs like Lakewood and those came along, there was a
whole new thing developed. Architectural firms sprang up;
the school architects were busy as can be because we were
building so many schools, and the industrial. So in the
fifties and sixties this place was quite vibrant, as it has
been lately.

LASKEY: But the shopping centers and the schools, that long,
low layout of the shopping centers, doesn't that reflect a
California approach?

309

MARTIN: Oh, definitely.

LASKEY : The idea of space. And even your downtown buildings,
the buildings that you have built, the open spaces.
MARTIN: Yes, I think the open spaces are handled with more
delicacy than in other societies. I think we really respect
the element of space in our design. Whether it was the low
California bungalow and shopping-center type of spread, or
even in the more densified urban design, like we have it
downtown today, there's a great deal of sensitivity to space
and its qualities. And, thank goodness, there were some
people, you know--we talked about tree-planting the other day--
some of those early developers planted miles of trees out
here, street trees. Then there was a big lull, and it
wasn't until Cleve Bonner and I started it all over again
that we got so many trees planted.

LASKEY: There used to be great gardens, too, that I don't
think exist any more, that I've read about: the [Adolphe L.
and Eugene] Bernheimer Gardens or the Arthur Letts Gardens.
Did you ever see any of those?

MARTIN: No, but I knew the name of Arthur Letts so well.
No, I never saw the gardens. I remember the mansions on
Wilshire Boulevard extremely well, the Hancock residence,
which is now preserved at USC and which I had the privilege
of eating lunch there every few months. There's some of
those historic buildings that have been retained.

310

LASKEY: Wilshire Boulevard is pretty much decimated,
unfortunately; that is, from the houses. There are only a
couple rambling ones left.

MARTIN: Wilshire Boulevard has been up and down, every
segment of it has been, and it keeps coming back, and there
will be a rejuvenation in some of those areas again. But
I think the most important thing about the Wilshire corridor
is the amount of living space, the density of the apartments
along there, from Wilshire up to First Street in some cases.
That is a very, very busy kind of an urban area, and it's
going to have to be rejuvenated too. But I don't know, one
could go along and reminisce a bit and perhaps look out in
the future; we've tried to do some of that in the Bicentennial
with actual programs. We have one at USC called "Los Angeles,
200+20"; that may be a very interesting program. I mean, the
s tudy .

Well, it sure has been a pleasure, Marlene, to work
with you through these many, many experiences; it's been a
lot of fun.

311

INDEX

Abramovitz, Max, 290
Albert, Margo, 214, 217
Allied Architects of Los

Angeles, 62,63
American Institute of

Architects (AIA) ,

161-62, 257
Amestoy, Joseph L. , 160
Anderson, Robert 0. , 160-

61, 165, 168, 247
Austin, John C, 62, 68,

261
Axelson, Jack, 136

Balloon frame construction,

20
Bard, Thomas R. , 3 8
Bauhaus, 116, 261, 268, 271
Bayer, Herbert, 276-78
Beaux arts style of design,

18-19, 91-92, 117,

119, 261, 272
Beelman, Claude, 83, 260
Behrendt, Olive, 217
Bimini Baths, 32
Bloom, John, 145
Bonner, Cleve, 244, 247,

310
Borchard family, 1-15, 36-

39
-ranch, 4-3, 10-13
Borchard, John Edward

(grandfather) , 4 ,

15
Borchard, Mary Kaufman

(grandmother), 14-

15
Borchard, Will (uncle), 85
Boyer, Lou, 130
Bradlev, Tom, 171-73, 214-

15, 217, 235-36,

238
Brokow, Gene, 9 7
Bunker Hill project, 144

California Council of

Architects, 257-58

Carter, Edward W. , 160-61,
170

Cedars-Sinai Medical

Center, 290-91

Chambers, B.C., 260

City planning, 104, 207-10,
310, See also Los
Angeles Civic
Center; Historic
preservation; Los
Angeles — present
renovation and
future development;
Transportation
systems

Conservation of

buildings. See

Historic

preservation

Cord, E.L. , 100

Curlett, Aleck, 260

Dimsdale, Ben, 30

Dockson, Robert R. , 217,
231

Doheny, Edward, 70

Dolde, Chuck (father-in-
law), 111-12

Dudok, Willem, 116

Dumke, Glenn, 217

Earthquakes. See Long

Beach earthquake;
Martin, Albert C. ,
and Associates —
computer analysis
for earthquake
movements; Sylmar
earthquake

Energy conservation, 55,

109, 131-32, 204-6,
304-5

Enqstrom Apartments, 165-
66, 183, 188

Falkenstein, Claire, 254
Flint, Noel, 118-19, 266

312

Gilbei

Gill,
Goodh
Gower
Grove
Gruen

Follis, John, 224, 225
Frolich, Arthur, 97

Getty, J. Paul,

Foundation — Plans
to preserve Los
Angeles Central
Library building,
160-51, 168-69
rt, Thomas, 40, 75,
95, 97, 125-26
Irving, 260
ue , Bertram, 67

Harry, 59
r. Earl, 246
,, Victor, 128, 130

Hammer, Armand , 228
Harrison, Wallace K., 290
Hawkes, Benjamin, 253
Helfeld, Edward, 165
Historic preservation, 170,
187-89
-El Pueblo, 170-76, 181-

82, 189, 239
-Engstrom Apartments, 188
-Los Angeles Central
Library building, 158-
69, 183-84
-Richfield Building, 247-
48
Hitchcock, Harry, 84
Housner, George W. , 145
Howery, Donald, 172
Hunt, Myron, 260

Jennifer, Frank, 59
Johnson, Chuck, 51, 52

Kaufman, Gordon, 260
Kirk, Edward, 30, 256-57
Klokke, Karl, 264, 279
Knudsen, Valley, 244, 245,

246-47
Krummeck, Elsie, 128

Larkin, Frederick G., Jr.

(Fritz), 278

Lathrop, Gloria, 218
Lawler, Oscar T. (Pat), 27i
Leonhardt, Carl, 22

Light, Herman Charles, 97
Lindsay, Gilbert W. , 161,

163, 169
Long Beach earthquake

(1933), 102
Longueville, Joe, 40, 76,

95, 97
Los Angeles

-early 1900s, 29, 31-33,

307-8
-Depression and war

years, 93-95, 308-9
-1950s, 128-30
-present renovation
and future development,
140-45, 157-202, 244-46,
249-51, 304, 305-7, 311
Los Angeles Area Chamber of
Commerce, 69, 246
-and Bicentennial

celebration, 221, 231-32
-Martin's chairmanship
of, 240-44
Los Angeles Beautiful, 244-

247
Los Angeles Bicentennial,
213-37
-activities, 220-23,

228, 232, 233
-archives of, 226-27
-Chamber of Commerce
involvement, 231-32
-city government
suoport, 219, 220, 235-
37
-composition of

committee, 215-18
-funding, 219-20, 221-
22, 228, 229-31, 232,
235-36
-North Civic Center
plan, 170-76, 182, 234-
35, 239
-publications, 232
-publicity, 223-26
Los Angeles Central Library
building, 158-69,
183-84
Los Angeles Civic Center,

64, 140-42, 156-57,
164-68, 183-86, 250

313

Los Angeles Civic Center

Authority, 281-82
Los Angeles Community
Redevelopment
Agency, 144, 165,
169, 191, 199, 240,
251, 283, 285
Los Angeles Conservancy,

167, 183
Los Angeles — El Pueblo,
170-76, 181-82,
189, 239
Los Angeles Headquarters
City Association,
248-49
Los Angeles North Civic

Center plan, 170-
76, 182, 234-235,
239
Lovret, Heuben, 174-75
Luckman, Charles, and

Associates, 161-62,
290-91
Macdonald, Tyler, 217
McGrath, Joe, 15-16
McGuire, Hugh J., 6 2
McMillan, Don, 44, 50
Maillart, Robert, 20
Martin, Albert C, and
Associates
{originally Albert
C. Martin firm) .
See also Martin,
Albert Carey, Sr. ;
Martin, Albert
Carey, Jr.; Martin,
Christopher;
Martin, David;
Martin, John Edward
-branches other than Los

Angeles, 293-95
-buildings designed by
-Atlantic Richfield
Tower (ARCO building),
106-7, 116, 150, 152-
55, 208-9, 242, 244,
250, 253
-Cord Building, 100-1
-Department of Water
and Power Building,
107-9, 242, 253, 281

-Desmond's Building,

76-77
-Double Ascension

fountain (ARCO Plaza),

277-78
-Eastland Shopping

Center, 132-33
-Furnace Creek Inn, 58-

61
-Grauman's Million

Dollar Theatre, 24
-Hamburger Building

(May Company

Building), 22-23, 82
-Hellman Building, 22
-Higgins Building, 75,

117
-Immaculate

Conception Parish, 31
-Immaculate Heart

College, 76
-Lakewood Shopping

Center, 98, 126-28,

130, 132, 133
-Lincoln High School,

40
-Manufacturers Life

Building, 242
-May Company

Crenshaw, 126-27
-May Company X-7ilshire,

118-23
-Saint Basil's Church

-first building, 30,
256

-second building, 30,
256

-third building, 30,
253-255
-Saint Vincent's

Church, 70-72
-Second Church of

Christ Scientist, 23-

24, 73, 117
-Security Pacific World
Headquarters, 106-
7, 150, 151, 208-
9, 242, 251, 253,
278-79, 281
-Union Bank Building
(originally

314

Connecticut
General Buildinq),
145, 148-49, 155-
56, 203, 208-9,
242, 250, 290
-Ventura County

Courthouse, 117
-Wells Fargo Building,
107, 155, 156, 206,
209, 242, 250, 282-87,
293
-other buildings, 26-27
-collaboration with other

firms, 288-91
-computer analysis for
earthquake movements,
145-50
-emplovment of engineers,

114-15
-finances, 299-302
-history of firm, 75-76,
84, 95-98, 113, 125-26,
133-35
-organization and staff,

78-81, 265, 295-99
-relationship with
clients, 252-54, 275-76,
279-80, 282, 288, 291-93
-relationship with
contractors, 287-88
Martin, Albert Carey, Jr.
See also Martin,
Albert C . , and
Associates
-architectural
influences, 115-16, 263,
266
-awards, 243, 244, 248,

259
-children, 138
-development of

Riverside ranch, 43-57
-education, 84-85, 88-93
-father's influence, 86-

88
-leadership positions
in community, 240-44,
257-59; see also Los
Angeles Bicentennial
-marriage, 109, 110-11,
116

-nhilosophy of desian,
73-74, 104, 105-6, 'l25,
209-13, 273-75
-on the public and
private sectors, 195-
99, 235, 238- 40, 282
-role in A.C. Martin

and Associates, 263-64
-and yachting, 136-39
Martin, Albert Carey, Sr.

(father), 9, 15-16,
17-18, 21-28, 39-
41, 43, 73, 84, 86,
89, 96, 98-100,
113, 117. See also
Martin, Albert C. ,
and Associates
Martin, Carolyn Elizabeth
Borchard (mother),
2-3, 9, 15-16, 40,
95-96
Martin, Christopher

(nephew), 78, 295-
98
Martin, David (son), 74,

78, 164, 169, 264,
265, 284, 285, 295-
98
Martin, Dorothy Dolde

(wife)', 109-11,
137-38
Martin, Joseph (uncle), 15,

17, 21, 24, 34
Martin, John Edward

(brother) , 34 , 42 ,
44, 45, 74, 78,
123-25, 190, 242,
244, 252, 295, 298,
299
Martin family, 36-37
-children of Mary and

John Martin, 25, 33-34
-children of Caroline and
Albert Martin, Sr., 34-
35, 41-42, 84-85, 89-90,
123
Marx, Samuel A., 83, 118-

19, 266
May, David, 83
May, Thomas, 40, 83, 127
Merced Theatre, 176

315

Moreno, Manuel, 21B
Morgan, Walls, and

Clements, 28, 86,

260
Morqanelli-Heumann and

Associates, 293,

295, 300

Neutra, Richard, 115-16,

262
Nunis, Doyce B., Jr., 2 33

O'Brien, Fred, 84
Olvera Street, 175-76
O'Sullivan, Michael, 265

Parkinson, Donald, 68, 261
Parkinson, John, 28, 62,

68, 86, 260-61
Patten, Norman, 40, 75-76,

95, 97

r, 157, 179,

T n -> inT 198

Associates , -^ .
Pico House, 175-76, 188
Pisano, Jane, 215-16, 219,

220, 234, 239

Richardson, Henry H, , 13,

19, 68, 262, 263
Richfield Buildina, 244,

247-48
Richter, Charles F., 145
Rockefeller Realty

Corporation, 284,

285-86, 287
Rood, Rodney W. , 217
Rosenheim, Alfred F., 22,

82, 303

Schindler, Rudolph M., 115,

263
Schonne, Charles, 118
Shopping centers, 126-33
Skidmore, Owings, and

Merrill, 127, 128
Smeraldi, John B., 71

Southern

South Pa
Sparl ing
Sresovic
Stone As
Sullivan

Summerf i
Sunkist

Sun Worl
Svlmar e

California Edison
Company Building,
165-66, 183, 187-88
rk plan, 251
, Jack, 9 5
h, Mary, 9 5
sociates, 224
, Louis , 68 , 116 ,
262, 263

eld, Marvin, 110
Growers, Inc., 47-
48

d, 47-48

arthquake ( 1971) ,
148-49, 150

Tishman Construction

Company, 287-38

TransDortation systems,
179-80, 189-95

Twenty Mule Team Borax

(U.S. Borax) , 51

-60

United States Army Corps of
Engineers, 93, 97,
98, 113-14

University of Illinois, 17-
18, 20

Vaughey, Bill, 7 7
Veale, Harry, 60, 71, 76

Weatherhead, Arthur Clason,

261
Webb, Del E. , 9 8
Webb, J. Watson, 134
Weingart, Ben, 130
Whittlesey, Austin, 68
Will, Arthur, Sr. , 64, 141
Will , Arthur, Jr. , 64
Williams, Harold M., 161
Wilshire Boulevard, 310-11
Wright, Frank Lloyd, 115-

16, 261, 262, 263,

266

Zabriskie, Christian B., 59

316

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