Official report of debates (Hansard) : Legislative Assembly of Ontario = Journal des débats (Hansard) : Assemblée législative de l'Ontario

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Toronto, Ontario, February 21, 1952, et seq.

Volume XIX

Tuesday, March 18, 1952.

HON. (Rev.) M. C. DAVIES, - Speaker.

"JR.. (fi. Sturgeon,

Chief Hansard Reporter

Parliament Buildings

Toronto

A-1

NINETEENTH DAY

PROCEEDINGS

of the

FIRST SESSION OF TH2 T^'JENTY -FOURTH LEGISLATURE, HELD
IN THE PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS, TORONTO, ONTARIO, ON
THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 21st, 1952, et seq.

Hon. (Rev.) M. C. DaVIES, Speaker,

Presiding.

Toronto, Ontario,
Tuesday, B/Iarch iSth, 1952.

The House having met. 3 o'clock p.m.

Prayers.

MR. SPEAKER: Presenting petitions.

Reading and receiving petitions.

Presenting Reports by Gormnittees,

Motions.

Introduction of Bills.
HON. D^NA PORTER (Attorney-General) moves
first reading of Bill intituled, "An Act to amend
the Loan and Trust Corporations Act".

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He said: This Bill makes certain provisions
in connection with the common trust fund permitted to
trust and loan corporations by Section 76 of the Loan
and Trust Corporations Act. This provision arose in
an amendment — I think it was a year ago — which
permitted loan and trust corporations to set up comnon
trust funds when they v/ere handling a number of small
estates, and has been a matter of considerable conven-
ience in the administration of those estates.

The amendment proposed provides for the
passing of accounts with respect to common trust funds,
in the office of the Surrogate Court in the county
or district in which the fund is being administered.

In the second place, there is an amendment
complementary to the amendment proposed for the
Trustees' Act in connection with a trustee invest-
ing in loan and trust corporations, and since this
amendment is similar in principle to that which was
mentioned the other day, in connection with the Trustees'
Act, this Bill will also be referred, in due course, to
the Legal Bills Committee; and \vill be disposed of,
no doubt, in the same way as the amendment to the
Trustees' Act,

M^.tion agreed to. . ^ ■.,.. .;

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HON. L. P. CECILE (Minister of Travel and
Publicity) moves first reading of Bill intituled
"An Act to Amend the Tourists establishment Act",

He said: Mr. Speaker, heretofore, all matters
in connection with tourists outfitters' camps have been
administered by the Department of Lands and Forests,
under the authority of the Game and Fish Act. This has
been done in order to sufficiently conserve wild life.

The effect of this Bill, together with a
complementary amendment which will be introduced to
the Game and Fish Act at this Session, is that the
licensing of tourist outfitter camps will remain under
the Department of Lands and Forests as an additional
conservation measure. All other features of control,
such as classification and inspection will become the
function of the Department of Travel and Publicity,

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill,

MR. R. MACAULAY (Riverdale) moves first
reading of Bill intituled, "An Act to Amend the
Mechanics' Lien Act, 1952".

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill,

HON. G. H. DUNBAR (Minister of Municipal
Affairs) moves first reading of Bill intituled, "An
Act to Amend the Municipal Act" ,

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He said: T'^r. Speaker, in this Act there are
27 sections and a number of sub-sections, and it will
go to the Committee on Municipal Law, at the second
reading.

75% of these amendments have been asked for
by municipalities, or organizations representing
municipalities, and the others are just to clarify-
some sections which are already on the Statute Books,

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill.

HON. A. WELSH (Provincial Secretary): Mr.
Speaker, I beg to present to the House the following:

1. The report of the Secretary and Registrar of the
Province of Ontario, for the calendar year ended
December 31, 1951, in respect to the administra-
tion of the Provincial Corporations Act,

2, The report of the Secretary and Registrar of the
Province of Ontario, for the fiscal year ended
March 31, 1951, with respect to the administration
of the Companies' Act, the Mortmain Act, and the
Charitable Uses Act,

MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day,

HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr,

Speaker, I beg to table answers to questions numbers

9, 46, 45, 26, 44, 25 and 13,

I notice, in regard to Question 13, that the

Ontario Municipal Improvement Corporation, in less

than two years, has loaned over ten million, three

hundred thousand dollars to the municipalities, which

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shows the corporation is at work.

m.. R. E. SLLIOTT (Hamilton East): Mr.
Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to rise in this
House to welcome the boys and girls from the Memorial
School in Hamilton, Cne-half of these boys and girls
come from V/entworth, and the other half from Hamilton
East,

Hamilton has the pleasure of receiving
thousands of tourists during the year, and I have
had an opportunity of speaking to a great number of
them from time to time, and according to the tourists,
Hamilton is known to haye the finest-looking women on
the North American continent. You can see that veri-
fied by simply looking at our fine boys and girls
who are here to-day from the Memorial School,

MR. F. OLIVER (Leader of the Opposition):
Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Hon. Prime Minister (Mr.
Frost) when he intends to call the Committee on Govern-
ment Commissions?

VS., FROST (Prime Minister): I think the Committee
has been set up, and is ready to go ahead at any time.

Mr, Speaker, I notice a number of questions on
the Order Paper in connection with hydro. The Hon.
Minister (Mr, Challies) tells me that he worked until
four o'clock on the questions, wh-'ch I assume means four

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o'clock in the morning. He is a very hard-working
Minister, and we will have the answers very shortly.
A meeting of the Committee can be convened at any
time, and I would ask the Clerk of the House to arrange
for a date which is satisfactory next week, to convene
the Committee,

MR, F. OLIVER: May I say further to the Hon.
Prime Minister (Mr. Frost), Mr, Speaker, that the
other day he brought up the question as to whether
Questions l6 and 17 should not be made Orders for
Return, On looking over the questions, I cannot see
why they should be. If there is any reason why, I
would be very glad to have that information,

IIR. FROST: The answers will be ready, but
they are very voluminous, and there is no necessity
of printing them all in the journals. If the Hon,
Leader of the Opposition (Mr, Oliver) will agree to
the motion, I will be prepared in a day or so to
table the answers to the questions I think the hon.
Leader of the Opposition (Mr, Oliver) is fearful
that if Orders for Return are made, the questions
will not be answered for some time. I will assure
the Hon. Leader of the Opposition that the questions
will be answered before the House prorogues.

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MR. OLIVER: I am fearful -- period. Does that
apply to both questions 16 and 17?

m. FROST: That is right, they are quite
voliominous. The hon, member wanta the information,
and I think if we tabled the answers, it would be
sufficient, without cluttering up the proceedings,
SPEECH FROM THE THRONE

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: First Order, Resuming
the adjourned debate on the amendment to the amend-
ment to the motion for an address in reply to the
speech of the Honourable the Lieutenant-Governor at
the opening of the Session.

Iffi. H. E. BECKETT (York East): Mr. Speaker,
it gives me much pleasure, on behalf of the people
of the riding of York East, to congratulate you on
your election as Speaker, and we feel that you will
add dignity to that high office.

As we look back upon the history of our
country from the days of Confederation, we know that
the planners of our Dominion built soundly and well.
They and their successors had many problems to solve,
by reason of the areas involved and the divergence
in national background and cultural outlook of the
people. We live in a land richly endowed with all
manner of natural resources: our people, of sturdy

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pioneering stock, have succeeded in developing these
resources, so that Canada today, as a nation, has an
influence in the world greater possibly than her
population of fourteen million warrants. We would not,
as Canadians, make exclusive claims for ourselves,
but certainly we know that living in this fair land
of ours so remarkable and so free from catastrophies
and horrors of war, we are a wonderfully privileged
people. Privilege always carries with it specific
responsibilities, A true citizen, one who loves his
country, always thinks in terms of responsibility,
not of privilege, of what he can do for his nation,
not of what he expects his nation to do for him. In
planning social security for the citizens of the
Province of Ontario, ranging from Child Welfare,
Blind and Old-Age Pensions, Mothers' Allowances,
Soldiers' Aid, Care for the Aged, and Ujiemployment Relief,
there is a tendency to emphasize privilege almost to
the exclusion of responsibility. The more the
Government does for people, the more people will
expect the Government to do. Paternalism in Govern-
ment is desirable to a point, but paternalism becomes
more of a hindrance than a help to a nation when it
discourages individual initiative or the fulfilment

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of one's duty of citizenship. A certain British
leader in the l^th century said that "it is the
function of the state to promote the good of the
people within it". The good of the people can best
be safeguarded by maintaining in them the spirit of
independence, enterprise and co-operative goodwill,
so that each person will assume his full share of
national responsibility. If we are to continue as
a progressive country, our people have to retain the
indomitable spirit of the pioneers who by the sweat
of their brows, in spite of discouragement and set-
back, cleared the country and cultivated it, We must
be a nation of workers, not shirkers, if we are to
raise a strong stalwart nationhood.

The welfare of the citizens of Ontario is
of the utmost importance to the Ontario Government,
Sound progressive policies that keep pace with need
and public demand ensure the best possible social
democracy. As the citizens of Ontario become more
conscious of the need of social services, care must be
exercised in the expansion of these facilities so as

not to overburden the ability of the taxpayer, to
provide the revenue. From a distribution of expendi-
tures of approximately -^19,000,000,00 in 1943-44 in

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welfare services, it has expanded to a cost of
approximately -^52,000,000.00 last year. The Province
will contribute an estimated .^22,000,000.00 of this
total from provincial revenues. This is truly
indicative of the growth of social services under-
taken by the Government. There is no magic well of
unlimited funds from which the revenue can be drawn.
The revenue must come from the taxpayers of the
Province on a year-to-year basis. The following
figures give you the percentages of cost of the various
welfare services:

Old Age Pensions - 75.6^
Mother's Allowance - 9.8%
Public Assistance - 4.4%
Children's Aid Societies- 2.4%
Administration Costs - 2,4%
Homes for the Aged ' -: 2,3%
Medical Services - 1.9%

Sundry Welfare

Expenditures - 1.2%

100%

(Take "B" follows)

B-1

Mr. Speaker retired from the Chair.

Mr. S. L. Hall (Halton) in the Chair.

The passing of the Old Age Assistance Act
last year granting up to $40. OC per month, subject to
a means test^, to persons between the ages of 65 and
70 was not unlike the Act passed in I927 governing
Old Age Pensions, whereby the Province and the
Dominion paid one-half the cost each but the Province
paid the administration cost and also paid the
cost of medical attention. Under the Old Age
Assistance Act, the Government of Canada pays one-
half the cost, the Province the other half and the
Province must administer the Act and will continue
to provide free medical attention.

The extension of this Old Age Assistance to
needy persons between the ages of 65 and 70 Increases
the beneficiaries from 300,000 to 675, OOl, persons.
It provides benefits for the first time In our
history to a new section of our population and along
with Old Age Pensions, now Old Age Security, to
almost one-third of our entire population between
65 and 70 and brings the total number benefitted to
817,000 persons. With the addition of the Old Age
Assistance there is now provided for every eligible
person in Canada 70 years or more the equivalent to a
Government Annuity valued at $4,690.00 for males
aged 70, $5,500.00 for females aged 70 and
$10,190.00 for married couples if both are eligible
for Old Age Security.

M'iry

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The significant social implications of this
change in our Pensions Act will cause hundreds of
thousands of our aged citizens, relatives/ friends
"and neighbours to find for the first time a new
sense of security and relief for their later years.

Thousands mere of our younger citizens will
have the satisfaction of knowing that they will
be able to provide better security for their own
parents, relatives and friends and at the same
time make provision for the time when they will
have reached the qualifying age.

Mr. Speaker, no less important will be the
knowledge of our Government that it has established
a permanent, orderly and comprehensive system for
Old Age Security to replace the old system which
was less adequate.

As a result of this new system, we Shall
feel that the aged people of this Province, in
their declining years, will be assured of a
measure of dignified, self-respecting security
fully comparable to that which other countries
have been able to provide for their aged people.

During the last twenty -three years close to
750,000 Canadians have benefitted under the Old Age
Pensions Act.

You will therefore see, Mr. Speaker, what
a lot of good comes out of the many conferences
between this Government and the Government of
Canada and I might say here that it was mainly due

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to the insistence of the hon. Prime Minister (Mr.
Frost) and his Government constantly prodding the
Government of Canada.

I would like to suggest, Mr. Speaker, that
perhaps the title of the Federal Act should be
changed to Old Age Assistance for surely $40.00
per month today does not mean Old Age Security, and
the title of the Old Age Assistance Act of Ontario
be changed to Social Benefits because people today do
not consider they are old at 65 and they do not like
the word ''assistance".

During the last twenty-three years I have had
the privilege of administering the Old Age Pensions
Act for the whole of the County of York. This has
brought me in touch with thousands of pensioners
and their families, for the population of the
County of York, apart from the City of Toronto, is
about one -tenth of the total population of the
Province. This experience has taught me many things,
chiefly that the receipt of the Pensions cheque
made the people feel that there was somebody who
cared a little for this class of person who is
considered by many today to be a burden.

Mr. Speaker, before I leave this subject I
would like to suggest -- and no doubt the hon.
Minister cf Welfare (Mr. Goodfellow) has it in
mind -- that some system of housing be worked out
whereby those receiving Old Age Security or Old Age
Assistance be allowed to live together as man and

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wife and not be separated as and when they

are admitted to a House of Refuge. After all,

when you are toddling down that last mile it

is nice to be accompanied by your husband or wife,

as the case may be.

May I say that the best way to overcome the
present threat facing our way of life is to provide
some benefits and some form of shelter to the
people as a whole.

The Speech from the Throne indicated that
legislation would be introduced to provide an
allowance up to $^0.00 per month to needy and de-
serving citizens between the ages of l8 and 65,
and this will surely be welcomed by many parents
who have sons and daughters who are unable to care
for themselves due to physical unfitness, which in
many cases developed at birth.

Mr. Speaker, in conclusion I would like to
say that these various forms of social benefits
tend to establish that freedom of the individual
which is the true basis of democracy.

(Page B-5 follows. )

B-5

HOK. W.s, GEMMELL (Minister of Mines): I
would first of all ask that you convey to Mr. Speaker
my congratulations upon his re-election to the high
office of Speaker of this House and also for the
dignity vath which he carries out the duties of that
office. I also feel that due to the manner in
which he fills that position he adds considerably
to the dignity of this House and the impression that
he leaves upon the hon. members of this House en-
courages the high standard of speeches whi.ch have
been made in the House this Session.

May I also congratulate the mover and the
seconder {Mr. Root) of the debate in reply to the
Speech from the Throne on the very excellent manner
in which they presented their problems to this House
and the speeches which they made on their initial entry
as hon. members of this Legislature*

May I also congratulate all new hon. members
f or t he excellence of the addresses they have made
to the House in this Session, which, in my opinion,
have been of a very high order.

One thing stands out in my mind since this
House commenced sitting, on this occasion, and strikes
me particularly because as a member from Northern
Ontario, I am particularly impressed — but before pre-
ceding may I congratulate all the hon. members from

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Northern Ontario who were elected to represent ridings
in the great, vast North. I, for one, am proud to
represent my own riding of Sudbury.

Mr. Speaker, during the course of this debate,
I was impressed by the address by the hon. member for
Bellwoods (Mr, Yaremko). I happen to have been brought
up and lived among people whose parents came from all
parts of Europe, and whose backgrounds were in the
northern sections of the country, as a matter of fact,
in the City of Sudbury, in which I live, we have thirty-
two different nationalities. I have always considered
it a privilege and pleasure and a great help to me
during the years of my life to have be ^n associated
with people whose backgrounds were different from my
own. It has, in my opinion, given to me a much
broader aspect of life, a much keener appreciation of
what other people have to offer in life, and has given
me a greater tolerance of race and religion and all
those things that go to make life more happy. I say
to those hon. members from Northern Ontario — and
also particularly the hon. member for Bellwoods (Mr.
Yaremko) — to whom I extend sincere congratulations
for the fine address he made in this House — because
of the peculiar quality of mingling of races and groups
of people who are being raised there today —
and I am sure the hon. member for Cochrane South

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(Mr. Grummet t ) will agree vdth me — despite all the
riches that are pouring into the economic blood-
stream of this nation Northern Ontario is making as
great a contribution to Canada and the world in the
way of tolerance of race and religion among nations
as any other area of comparable size in this country.
In the world we live in today beset v/ith internal and
external strife, I would say that Northern Ontario is
raising a group of people who will make a noticeable
contribution towards international peace.

Speaking as Minister of Mines, it was not my
intention, today, to dwell at any length upon that
particular aspect of Government, because I will be
speaking later when my estimates come up in the
House dealing specifically with the problems and
the work of our Department. However, I would like
to make a general reviev/ of the mining situation as
it affects this Province today.

I would like to refer to the many great
developments that have taken place this past year
and particularly to indicate to you the growth
that has come about in mining in this Province. I
can well remember on t aking office as Minister of
Mines a little more than three years ago, that at
that time the Province of Ontario was producing
minerals to the total wealth of less than ^250
million. In the past year, we have reached a
figure well over the -{^400 million mark, and when

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the figures are computed for 1951, we feel they
will reach close to the $450 million mark and we
hope by the end of 1952 that Ontario will be pro-
ducing minerals to the total value of half a
billion dollars.

Seme of this, of course, has been due to
Improvement in price but most of it has been due to
the extensive exploration and development going on
in the base metal field. I am sure the gold indus-
try has suffered severely from the exchange rates,
from the low price of gold and the high cost of
operation. It is Interesting to note that the base
metal today is carrying much of the greater share
of the total production of minerals in this Province.

For instance, in my district the International
Nickel Company alone produces nickel equal to prac-
tically the total of the gold production of the
whole of Canada less $9 million. They have spent
since the end of the war $100 million on an expan-
sion programme and by the end of this year they will
be raising each month more than one million tons of
ore. They will raise this year or hoist from the
underground operations 13,000,000 tons of ore which
will make that one operation the largest single
mining operation in the whold world.

It is interesting to note in connection
with the Sudbury district that not only does it
produce ninety per cent of the world's nickel but
it produces the largest share of copper in the

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British Empire, it produces the largest share of
silver in the world and most of the world's
platinum and today is supplying the pulp and paper
industry with a large share of liquid sulphur
dioxide .

The Falconbridge mine is one of the small
operations that has greatly increased and has recent-
ly established a new ore body sufficient to warrant
a smelter of its own. On top of that, the Ontario
Pyrite Company, a subsidiary of Ventures Limited,
has opened up a part of the Treadwe 11 -Yukon property
of lead, zinc and copper and are spending $2 million
to open up that property and put it into production,
Ag a result of this in this year the total mineral
production from the Province of Ontario, one-third
of ;'.t will come from the district I have the honour
to represent.

However, there are many other significant
mineral developments taking place m this great
Province. VJe have the great development at
Steep Rock in the District of Rainy River, and
last year they shipped to Lake Erie points high
grade iron ore of the sum total of better than
1,300,000 tons. The information we have at
our command indicates that other companies are
sharing with them in the benefits which they hold
there which means that by 1955 that district will
be shipping 4,000,0^0 to 5,000,000 tons of high
grade iron ore to the steel industry of this con-
tinent and by i960 can possibly be shipping

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10,000,000 tens.

In the Michlpicoten area in the district
which my hen. friend from Sault Ste. Marie (Mr. Lyons)
represents they last year shipped sinter ore to a
total of greater than one million tons, and favili-
tles are to be extended both at Sault Ste. MaR-e
Marie and in this district which will ensure an
increasing growth in that community of the iron
situation as it now exists in this province.

The Cobalt area, of course, was referred to
by the hon . member for Temiskamlng (Mr. Herbert)
yesterday and there is very little I can mention
in this connection outside of what he had to say
then except that we are all extremely happy that
the Cobalt camp is coming back and that Cobalt is
makin^i a great contribution to the production of
America through the production of Cobalt and that
geophysical surveys and diamond drilling will
surely make that into a great camp as it was back
in the early days of the century .

One of the significant things which I men-
tioned last year which will probably be interesting
to newer members of the House was that during the
term when the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) was
Minister cf Mines for this Province, he had carried
out an airborne magnetometer survey of a section
of Hastings County.

(Take "C " follows)

C-1

As a result of that work being- done, we have now in
process of being opened up by the Bethlehem Steel Cor-
poration of the United States, a new iron mine in
eastern Ontario. This has focused the attention of many
on the iron and mineral deposits of eastern Ontario,
V/e hope as a result of their activities, as well as the
activities of the Algoma Steel Corporation that new
developments v;ill take place in eastern Ontario, in
the mineral field which will be beyond the dreams of
many of us.

The gold camps, as I have said before, have
suffered and we are hopeful this situation will take care
of itself in the very early future, so that gold will
once again resume its proper place and bring wealth to
the people of this province. I just want to make a
brief review of the mineral resources of this province
because I will be speaking very definitely on them in
the estimates when they come before the House.

I would like to take this opportunity to dwell
upon a subject which I think is of great importance to the
people of Ontario and the people of Canada, in the days
ahead. Most of you have probably seen in the Press within
the last few months, the developments that have taken plac?
in Alberta with regard to oil and natural gas. You have
seen where there have been attempts to bring natural gas

C-2

in from Texas to Ontario and also to pipe gas from

western Canada into Ontario. In order to give you the

whole picture properly and particularly for those who

are not familiar with the gas business , I v^all read to

the House, a statement made in 1950 on the gas situation

in Ontario, or a brief report on its history:

"The first gas well in the Province was drilled
near Port Colborne in 1885. This well was quite
small with a daily capacity of only 7,000 cubic
feet. It was not until January of 1889 that
the first commercial gas well was drilled in
Gosfield Township, Essex County, Later, in
August of 1889, commercial production was also
begun in Humberstone and Bertie Townships in
We Hand County,

It may be said, therefore, that the natural
gas industry had its beginning in 1889.
Immediately following the discovery of commercial
quantities of gas in Essex County and shortly
after in V/elland County, arrangements were made
for the export of I'/elland County gas to Buffalo,
New York, in January, 1891, and of Essex
County gas to Detroit and Toledo in 1894. The
export of gas to the United States from the
above field was of short duration, owing to the
rapid exhaustion of the fields, and the export
of gas to Buffalo ceased in 1907, and to Detroit
and Toledo in 1901, The distribution and use
of natural gas in south-western Ontario began
shortly after the discovery of natural gas in
Essex and V/elland Counties v/hen gas was piped
in 1893 to the City of Vfelland and in 1904 to
the City of Niagara Falls.

In the years that followed, other fields

C-3

were developed and the production and distribution
of natural gas increased steadily until 1917,
when owing to the war demand and the exhaustion
of gas wells, controls and restrictions had to
be placed on the use of natural gas. These
controls were renoved a few years later, but v/ith
the increased requirements in the fall of 1940
of natural gas for war industries, it was found
necessary to once again put into force controls
and restrictions on the domestic, commercial
and non-essential industrial consumption of
natural gas. Under the provisions of the V/ar-
time Measures Act, the Federal Pov;er Controller
took over control of gas supplies and gave
priority to war industries,

V/ith the resignation of the Federal Power
Controller in the Spring of 1946, all the Pov/er
Controller's orders v/ere rescinded and the control
of natural gas once again placed under Provincial
Jurisdiction.

Since the supplies of gas v/ere limited
and not sufficient to meet all req_uirements , it
was found necessary to place provincial controls
on the distribution and consumption of natural
gas under the provisions of the Natural Gas
Conservation Act and also the Fuel Supply Act.
In the summer of 1949 it v/as possible, for the
first time since the second Great V'/ar, to relax
the controls on the use of natural gas in
certain areas, while in other sections it was
found necessary to enforce strict control on
the distribution and use of natural gas. Con-
trols still remain in force, particularly with
reference to the utilization of natural gas for
industrial use, and for any type of space-
heating, either domestic or industrial.

In order to meet the shortage in the supply

C-4

of natural gas in south-western Ontario, the
distributing companies have since 1944 been
carrying on negotiations for substantial supplies
of natural gas from the United. States".

I have a statement regarding negotiations

the Union Gas Company carried on since 1944 regarding

the importation of natural gas from the Texas fields,

from the eastern panhandle system. I will read this

statement to the House:

" In 1944, the Union Gas Company of Chatham
entered into a contract with the Panhandle
Eastern Pipeline Company for the annual impor-
tation of 5.5 billion cubic feet of gas into
Ontario.

In April, 1946, The Federal Power Commission
of the United States granted an export permit
subject, however, to the condition that the full
contract could not be exercised until all the
requirements along the Panhandle Eastern Line in
the United States were satisfied. This condition
resulted in the Union Gas Company only receiving
token volumes (20 million cubic feet per year)
of gas during the period 1945 to 1948 inclusive.
During the summer of 1949, however, the Union
Gas Company received nearly one billion cubic
feet. In the summer months of 1950 nearly three
billion cubic feet and in the summer months of
1951 a slightly larger volume of natural gas
was received.

G ing to the restrictions imposed on the
export of gas by the Federal Power Commission
in 1946, the Union Gas Company continued, from
time to time, to petition for a modification
of the restrictions Vv'hich would permit a

C-5

reasonably assured annual delivery of the
volume set out in the original contract. To
date, these petitions of the Union Gas Company
have been unsuccessful and in August, 1951, the
Federal Pov\^er Commission ruled that owing to
increasee. demands for natural gas in the United
States it v/as "not in the public interest" to
allow the export of gas to Canada on a "firm basis
at this time". The Federal Pov/er Commission
stated, however, in dismissing the application
of the Union Gas Company, that they did so
"v/ithout prejudice".

Owing to the unsatisfactory conditions which
the Federal Power Commission of the United States
placed on the export of natural gas to the
Province of Ontario, it is now evident that in
order to obtain adequate supplies of natural
gas on a long-term basis, it will be necessary
to ob.ain supplies of gas from the Province of
Alberta and in this connection I am pleased to
say, that negotiations are presently underway
for the establishment of an all-Canadian pipe-
line from the l/estern Provinces to the Provinces
of Ontario and Quebec. It should be noted,
however, that the building of such a pipeline
cannot be undertaken until the reserve in the
Province of Alberta are sufficient to justify
the export of gas".

During the course of the past six months,

the hon. Prime Minister (iVIr. Frost) and myself, have

endeavoured to bring this to the attention of the

public, and to the attention of the Federal

Government, that Ontario needs natural gas to ensure

its expansion. IVhen you have a province like Ontario*

C-6

to which the world is looking for supplies of our
metals and other natural resources for defence
needs, not forgetting our expanding economy, it is
important that v/e be supplied with an adequate amount
of energy whether it is in the form of Hydro-Electric
Pov/er, whether it is in the form of natural gas, or
other forms. It is expedient to look to the future
as v\[e see the present need for power in this province,

I must congratulate the hon. Prime Minister
(Mr. Frost) for having introduced into this House, Bills
which will bring to the fore the beginning of the St.
Lav.'rence Seaway and the production of pov/er to meet the
evergrowing demands in this province. We realize
we are going to need power in this province, and
energy of some nature. i7e are going to have to tap
the supply now found in western Canada, and bring it to
eastern Canada to meet the evergrowing expansion of
this province of Ontario,

I am going, with your permission, Sir, to read
to this House tv/o letters I have written, one to the
hon. Minister of Mines for Cana-da and one -to the hon.
Minister of Mines for Alberta, on the subject of natural
gas and the policy of our Government, regarding a Trans-
Canada pipeline. As you know, in the province of
Alberta, where natural gas has been discovered in

C-7

increasingly large quantities, the Natural Gas
Conservation Board of Alberta have taken this position,
that they must ensure to the province of Alberta
sufficient natural gas to meet the needs of that province
for thirty years. They have set this figure at four
trillion cubic feet, and that will probably increase
with the increase of industry in the province of Alberta,
At the present time, it is our opinion that the province
of Alberta can provide eight trillion cubic feet. In
order to increase that picture, to develop those resources,
requires considerable suns of money and to carry
out this v/ork and drill these wells, it is going to be
necessary for Alberta to export gas. The needs of the
province of Alberta will probably change and these
companies v/ill be able to carry out their continued
exploration.

Just recently, Saskatchev/an has discovered
natural gas and the picture is changing rapidly as the
days go by.

There are three or four important
propositions placed before the country to-day, I have
been approached by two different companies, Trans-Canada
Pipelines, and Canadian Delhi, laying before me their
propositions for a pipeline from the Alberta fields
into eastern Canada, I will read the letter written

C-8

to me, follov\ring their presentation of the case

by t'he President of the Trans-Canada Pipe Lines,

the only Company so far which has applied for the

rights for a permit to build a pipe-line to eastern

Canada. He says: •

" Confirming our conversation of Friday last,
I would like to outline briefly the basic
reasons why we believe that Ontario and Quebec
must look to Alberta for adequate supplies of
natural gas.

V'/e will supply you v^rithin a few days a
memorandum on the natural {jas situation and the
inadequate Texas supply to moot tho potential
market in the United States. It is our con-
sidered conviction that there is neither sufficient
gas in Texas to supply the North Central and
Eastern United States market adequately nor is
there any likelihood that the United States
Federal Authorities would permit long term, non-
interruptable export of Texas gas to Canada v^hile
the American consumers still need gas. It is
obvious that Eastern Canada cannot depend upon
the usual form of export license v/hich the
Federal Power Comr.iission is empovirered to grant,
namely an interruptable export which must be
cancelled upon demonstration of unsatisfied
markets in areas in the United States through
which the pipe line passes.

Our market study in Ontario and Quebec
indicates an initial market of over 300 million
cubic feet per day. This, we are confident,
will .jrow to 500 million cubic feet per day
within the first five years and within ten years
to one billion cubic feet per day. It would not
be in the best interest of Eastern Canada to

C-9

accept an initial supply of £:as from the United
States of 250, 000, .000 feet per day when there
is little likelihood of that being increased and
indeed a likelihood of it being decreased.

The gas pipe- line from Alberta to Eastern
Canada following generally the main line of the
CPR serves the majority of Canadian residents.
It has been estimated that such a line v^ould
have 5,000 people v/ithin reach of the pipe line
for every mile of main transmission line. This
compares with an average of 600 persons per
mile of main transmission line in the existing
pipe-lines of the United States. Both railroads
are strongly in favor of the Canadian gas line,
having in mind the freight-making possibilities
from nev; Industries along the pipe-line.

It was with these thoughts in mind that our
Trans-Canada Project was conceived. ¥e believe
that when these factors are considered the
governments of the provinces and dominion v/111
stronglj^ support the project. At the present
time there is some danger that if Eastern
Canada does not indicate its active support for
the Trans-Canada Project, action may be taken
in the next fev; months to permit the export
of an initial quantity of gas from Alberta
to the United States West of the Great Lakes",

As I said in the beginning, before reading

this letter, the situation in Alberta is that the

Conservation Board of the province indicated that

they will not grant an export unless _t he supplies

and the immediate needs of the province have been met

for thirty years in advance. Our information is, at

the present time, that sometime this month or next month.

C-10

the province of Alberta v/ill grant an export permit
for gas to some other sections of this continent. Vlhen
this decision is made, there are five companies planning
to take gas into north-western United States and the
Pacific Coast and one to Eastern Canada. There is a
third project which will bring the gas from Alberta
through Saskatchewan to Winnipeg, south into Minnesota
and the middle-western States. In view of these facts,
and in view of the fact that this decision will be
made by Alberta sometime this month, in view of the
fact that Eastern Canada is short of gas and are going
to be short of energy in the days to come, it is
iraiiortant that we place our case before the people of
this country, to indicate the government's position
and to place our needs before the province and before
the Dominion. The final decision as to wheter the pipe
line will com-e through this section or not, vdll be
made by the Dominion Transport Board.

As a result of the studies of our Department
and to indicate the policy of the Ontario Government
in this regard, because vre are strongly in favour of
the Trans-Canada Pipe Line, I will read to you, these
letters v/hich I have already mentioned in order that
you may see the trend, the policy and the course we
are following.

C-11

I was in Ottawa in January and had a discussion
with the bon. Minister of Mines for Canada and when I
returned, I wrote this letter in connection with the
situation:

"Dear Mr, Prudhara:

Upon returning to my Office following the
discussions which I had with you in Ottav/a
during the week of January 21st, I have given
the problem of obtaining an adeq,uate and long-
term supply of natural gas for the Province of
Ontario very careful consideration and wish to
once again stress the fact that an all-Canadian
pipeline ap; ears to be the only solution,
particularly since it was only a few months
ago that the Federal Poorer Commission of the
United States denied the application of the
Panhandle gas to the Province of Ontario, As
time goes along, it becomes more apparent
that the requirements within the borders of
the United States will never be met and
consequently we here in Canada would be ill
advised to place our dependence on supplies of
natural gas from the United States even if
there exists a reciprocal arrangement for the
export of Alberta gas to the Nor th-lVes tern
Section of the United States.

The problem which now is of vital impor-
tance to not only the Province of Ontario
but I should think also the the Province of
Quebec and to a lesser degree to the Province
of Manitoba and possibly Saskatchewan is the
establishment of an all-Canadian pipeline
from Alberta Eastward to Eastern Canada at an
early date. As you probably know, at the
present time, certain financial groups are

C-12

w

orking for and here in Ontario obtaining
franchises for the establishment of pipelines,
distribution lines for natural gas from the
United States via Texas Panhandle Pipeline.
It seer.is to me that it is not desirable at this
time to have transmission pipeline projects under
way which may later on seriously interfere with
the establishment of an all-Canadian transmission
line and its markets.

V.'ith reference to the exportation of natural
£as from Alberta, I appreciate the fact that
until such time as the Natural Gas and Petroleum
Conservation Board announce the results of
their recent Hearing, that neither the Alberta
Government nor the Federal Transport Board will
be in a position to deal v^ath this question,
'i.'e do, however, fully realize that the reserves
presently available in zhe Province of Alberta
will not be sufficient to justify the export of
gas to the /est coast as V'lell as Eastward to
the Provinces of Ontario and Quebec. At the
same time, it is my desire and that of our
Gov-rnment to do everything v/ithin our power to
ob'cain substantial volumes of Alberta natural
gas on a firm and long-term basis at an early
date.

During the past yeer, I have met with officia:
of Trans-Canada Pipeline (Canadian Delhi Company)
and Pacific North ■ est (Fish Group) Companies,
and each of these Companies have carefully out-
lined their proposals for the establishment of
a transmission line to bring natural gas to the
Provinces of Ontario and Quebec. Unfortunately,
the market in Ontario and Quebec is not 1; rge
enough to justify tv;o transmission lines and
therefore, it must be decided at a very early
date as to which line will supply the Eastern

C-13

Canadian market. ViHien in Ottawa during the
week of January 21st, I announced to the Press
that the establishment of an all-Canadian
pipeline from Alberta to Eastern Canada would
offer Eastern Canada a much more dependable
and assured supply of natural gas, particularly
during times of stress or war and vrould, there-
fore, assist in developing a free and healthy
exchange of natural resources v/ithin the
Dominion of Canada. I also understand that the
Department of Defence Production in their
Confidential Report, "The Natural Gas Industry'*,
May, 1951, supvort and favour the Canadian
pipeline route".

(Take "D" follows)

D-1

"In order to obtain for south-western Ontario
the portion of Ontario which is already served
with natural gas, for northern central and
eastern Ontario a long-term and adequate sui)ply,
it is my hope that an all-Canadian pipeline may
be established from ^^Iberta to Eastern Canada
and in this connection I will be prepared to
meet with you and other Ministers of the Federal
Government at any time."

At the same time I wrote the Hon. Minister of

Mines of alberta, expressing very much the same opinion,

which I will table in the House for the benefit of

the hon. members, and which can be placed on the record,

in Hansard.

"V/ith further reference to the discussion
which we had in Ottav;a during the week of
January the 21st last, regarding the question
as to whether or not the reserves of natural
gas in the Province of Alberta are sufficient
to Justify the export to the V/est Coast, the
Pacific North-'.'7est or to Eastern Canada, I
may say, that within recent weeks, the struggle
betwiven companies proposing to bring natural
gas to the Province of Ontario and Q,uebec
has become active and to a certain degree
quite disturbing. It has just been brought
to my attention that the Pacific North-West
(Fish Group) are at the present time pressing
for and obtaining franchise rights in many
of our communities here in Ontario. You
will appreciate the fact I am sure, that as
I have already stated, an all-Canadian
pipeline from Alberta to Eastern Canada would
be more desirable, particularly since such a
pipeline would assure Eastern Canada of sub-
stantial volumes of natural gas on a long-

D-2

term basis and also promote the exchange
of natural resources and manufactured
products within the Dominion of Canada. As
you probably know, the Federal Power Commis-
sion last Fall, denied the Texas Panhandle
Company permission to export natural gas
on a firm basis to the Province of Ontario,
In fact, this restriction on the export of
natural gas has been in force since 1946 or
1947 and it would now appear that we here in
Ontario would certainly be ill-advised to
place any confidence in a supply of natural
gas from the United States even if there
exists a reciprocal arrangement for the
exchange of natural gas with the United States,

As mentioned above, we are extremely dis-
turbed over the fact that the Pacific North-
west (Fish Group) are at the present time
actively engaged in obtaining franchise rights
from cities, towns and communities here in
Ontario. This certainly will create a serious
problem in the event a Canadian pipeline is
established from Alberta to the Province of
Ontario and Quebec, and consequently I should
like to take steps in the very near future,
to place before the citizens and municipal
representatives of the Province of Ontario
the true facts relative to supplies of
natural gas for the Province of Ontario, In
order, however, to m.eet this situation, and
to take a definite stand as to the question
of the establishment of an all-Canadian
pipeline, I wish to once again have your
support for the establishment of an all-
Canadian pipeline from. Alberta to Eastern
Canada and of course for the export of Alberta
and possibly Saskatchewan natural gas to
Eastern Canada, rather than to the north-
western United States.

I wish to express my appreciation for
all the courtesies which you have shown to
me and to officers of m.y department, and
to assure you t hat I will do everything
within my power to obtain for the Province
of Ontario via a Canadian pipeline, substan-
tial volumes of Alberta and possibly Sask-
atchewan natural gas on a long-term basis."

D-3

In connection with the natural gas problem,
and thinking in terms of Canada and Ontario as a
whole, there is no question but the advent of large
supplies of natural gas to the Province of Ontario,
travelling through the northern section of this
Province, and pouring its energy into the mines and
operating mills of that section, would add greatly
to the development ofthat section of the Province,
Secondly, it would meet the needs of the scarcity in
Western Ontario, where there is no question but a
scarcity exists.

When you think of Hamilton, for instance,
supplied by manufactured gas, and the city of Toronto,
supplied by manufactured gas, and when you think that in
the whole of western Ontario the total volume which
could be used there, as far as we can estimate, would
be 25 billion cubic feet of gas, and that in the city
of Toronto, as near as we can estimate, there would
be used 25 billion cubic feet of gas, and that
Northern Ontario could use approximately 25 billion
feet of gas, and estimate that the markets in the
Montreal district could use another 25 billion cubic
feet, there is no question but that wo havo a great
market in eastern Ontario for natural gas.

D-4

Now, speaking, for instance, of the cities
of Toronto and Hamilton-, where manufactured gas is
used; by bringing this gas in from the West, it would
reduce the cost to the consumers in these cities by
nearly 50;ci. At the present time, a man heating his
home — and I refer to an ordinary-sized home,
costs him about 1^00 per year. If this gas is brought
into this city from the Vest, in line with present
conditions, the same man could heat the same home for
1^200.00. I think every hon. member in this House
will agree that if it is possible at all, we should
encourage the Dominion Transport Board, the Dominion
Government and the Government of the Province of
Alberta, to see we get an adequate supply of gas in
this section of the Province. And I think, if that
can be arranged, there is no reason why we cannot
supply to the Eastern Canadian markets this ever- in-
creasingly important product, which would add to the
growth of the whole Dominion, in the development of
our natural resources, which we have in such abundance.

I was reading an editorial in one of the
Lakehead papers, in which was quoted a statement
made by Mr. Cyrus Eaton, Chairman of the Board of Steep-
rock Iron Mines Ltd., to tho effoct that if natural gas

D-5

was made available to the Steeprock Iron Mines, there
would be no question about the development of a steel
plant in that portion of the country.

Speaking from memory, Mr. Speaker, I Relieve
the International Nickel Company, uses about one million
tons of coal per year. Twenty thousand cubic feet of gas
equals a ton of anthracite coal, and figuring on that
basis, it would mean that one industry alone, could
eliminate the import into Canada from the United States
of the required anthracite coal and would use two
million feet of gas per year.

Add to that the steel industry at the Soo,
and the pulp mills which have developed all through
the north as the result of the policites of this Govern-
ment, then you will see what an impetus it would give
to that section of the country, and also what it would
mean to the citizens of Toronto, Hamilton, and all of
Eastern Ontario.

These communities in TVestern Ontario which
are not now served, would find a great development,
and I think, Mr. Speaker, the policies we are follow-
ing and trying to encourage, would mean a great deal
toward Canadianism, and mean much to the Province of
Ontario, in fact, to every citizen of Canada,

ii-;

.0 t^OT-

D-6

I'H. mi. HOUCK (Niagara Falls): Mr. Speaker,
I wonder if I may ask the hon. Minister (Mr. Gemmell)
a question before he leaves the subject of gas.

How much gas was imported from Buffalo to
Fort Erie and Niagara Falls in 1951, and if it v/as a
greater amount than was imported in 1950?

Iffi. GEMIELL: I will have those figures for
you in a moment, I may say to the hon. member for
Niagara Falls, that for the first time, I believe, in
eleven years, there was a shortage of gas in the sj'-stor;
which served the area described. That will shov: the
hon. member (Mr, Kouck) the desirability of importing
an extra supply of natural gas.

Another matter which has come — not to light,
exactly, but on which public attention has been focussed
in the last few m-onths, but which is really not anything
new, is the question of the mining lands in this Province
I think this was focussed largely because of the announco-
ment in the press that the Abitibi Power and Paper Cor.ipam'-
had acquired, or were carrying on negotiations to acquire,
certain parcels of land formerly owned by the Grand Trunk
Pacific Railway, and it was going to be used for m.ining
purposes. Most of this land had never been opened to
prospectors. This caused some concern to the prospectorc;.

D-7

particularly, and has brought into focus the whole
question of whether our mining act in this Province,
under which patented lands are held in fee simple,
is adequate to meet the situation as it exists to-day,

I will make a brief statement to the House,
and try to clarify, for the hon. members who come from
the areas in which this problem exists, the situation tend-
ing to show some of the problems we are up against.
The statement I will make to-day will be brief because
I intend to have the whole problem placed before the
Mining Committee of this House, so. they will understand
the great difficulty involved in this province,

Ontario is one of the oldest mining provinces
in the Canadian Federation, That is so because year
after year, for the past half-century, its mineral
pro-uction has led that of any other sister province
in Canada,

The laws of this province which made it
possible for an individual, a group of individuals
or companies to acquire land for the purpose of '
developing the minerals thought to exist therein,
have, for the greater part, been most liberal in
scope. These laws were created to speed the
development of the Province, to get industries going,

D-S

to attract people here so that the vast areas which
comprise Ontario would become productive, and that
an increasing number of people would flock here and
find root.

In a sense our law-makers did not err. Up
to a degree their way of thinking has borne fruit.
But we are faced to-day with what I believe is the
result of a weakness in our legislation affecting
mining lands.

To-day, in this province, hundreds of
thousands of acres of potential mining lands are
held by individuals, groups of individuals or com-
panies, of which no work is being done to search for
possible mineral riches. I will go so far as to say
that on many of the patented lands presently out of
the reach of the Crown, that no prospecting or de-
velopment work of any kind has ever been done since
they have been handed over to their owners in fee
simple.

Let me here give you an example of what has
happened in Ontario in this particular case. I refer
to the granting by the province, practically at the
dawn of its history, of mining rights to vast tracts
of land we now believe have a potential value. I
will quote from some of the remarks made by Harold

D-9

C, Rickaby, Deputy Minister of Fines for the Province
of Ontario, These remarks he made at the annual
convention of the Prospectors and Developers Associa-
tion here in Toronto last week. Here, in part, is
what he said:

"Two months ago there appeared in the press
an announcement that the Abitibi Power and
Paper Company had acquired or were carrying
negotiations to acquire certain parcels of
land formerly owned by the Grand Trunk
Pacific Railway and that they would commence
this coming season to prospect these lands
for mineral deposits. The size of the area,
some 635,000 acres, comprising ten blocks
of varying sizes naturally gave rise to some
queries as to how it had been acquired com-
bined with the circumstances under which it
has apparently lain dormant with respect to
its mineral possibilities for many years.
Since these blocks of land have never been
open for staking in the usual way, there was
naturally no encouragement for the ordinary
prospector to explore them.

The history of the alienation of these
lands ^oes back to the beginning of the
century when railway construction was being
so actively pursued. Chapter IS, 1+ Edward
VII, 1904, of the Ontario Statutes being an
Act respecting aid to certain railways, pro-
vided among other things a subsidy in the
form of a land grant to the Grand Trunk
Pacific Railway of 6,000 acres for each
mile of railway constructed from a point on
Thunder Bay to the intersection of this line
with the main line of the Eastern Division
of the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway, Section
13 of this Act provided that the lands should
be granted in fee simple and should include
'all ores, mines, minerals, base and precious,
and all powers, rights and privileges apper-
taining thereto' with certain reservations
which are of little moment for the purposes
of this paper.

D-10

The ten blocks oif land lie along the
railway line connecting the Lakehead with
Sioux Lookout and the grants were completed
in 1909. Portions of some of these blocks
adjoin or form parts of belts of rocks we
now know to be favourably located geologic-
ally speaking for mineral deposits. Apparently
the railway concerned made very little effort
to explore them, but it seems difficult to
see what steps the province could have taken
to compel them to do so. It is encouraging
to know, however, that plans are apparently
now under way to actively explore them under
new ownership.

Several other large grants of land have
been made by the province to aid in the
construction of railways as follows:

The Algoma Central Railway by an act
passed in I9OO was granted a subsidy of
7,400 acres for each mile of its railway
to be constructed. This grant also carried
with it the mineral rights but in this case
the company set up its own regulations under
which it issued permits to prospectors to
stake out and acquire mining lands similar
to the procedure under the Ontario Mining
Act. In 1941, by an agreement between the
Province and the Railway Company, 3^ of
these townships were returned to the Province
and were thrown open for staking as soon as
certain details covering certain parcels that
had been alienated were attended to. Only
three of the 3^ remain to be thrown open,
and it is hoped to have them made available
for prospecting in the very near future.

Two other land grants of substantial
areas in the form of subsidies were made —
one to the Algoma Eastern Railway comprising
16 townships amounting to 702,404 acres and
one to the Canadian Land and Emigration
Company of ten townships in Haliburton County
comprising 402,979 acres. Both of these
grants like the others included the mineral
rights. In the case of the former company,
six of the townships, lying east of Chapleau,

D-11

were transferred to the Northern Ontario
Lands Corporation and on these exploration
has been carried on by mining companies for
a number of years. In the case of the
latter company the mineral rights on a
portion of the lands have been returned to
the province. With respect to all of these
land grants except that of the A.C.R., there
has been no encouragement for the ordinary
prospector working on his own to prospect
the ground and in some cases there has
apparently been no arrangement made by the
owners to explore them."

I was going to mention some of the patent

lands in this Province, which we feel are now lying

idle. I will read a portion of the statement which

has to do with the discussions which have taken place.

It says:

"I would now like to direct your atten-
tion to some other mining lands of the
Province which may be said to be inactive.
In 1946, at the annual meeting of this
Association, a well-known engineer-prospector,
J. C. Honsberger, put forward some suggestions
with reference to Ontario's method of acquiring
and holding mining lands. He went to con-
siderable trouble to show the situation in
this province as compared with that of our
sister province of Quebec, pointing out
that the Quebec system was better designed
to ensure the active development of mineral
potentialities than that of Ontario. I
believe that those suggestions gave rise to
much discussion at the meeting, but there
was apparently considerable difference of
opinion on the matter among the prospectors
and no action was taken at that time. Is
it possibly not time that we should again
study Mr. Honsberger 's suggestions along
with other means of encouraging mineral
exploration in Ontario?

D-12

It is admitted by everyone that the
main object of laws governing the acquirement
of Crown Lands for mining purposes should be
to encourage the findi^ng of new mines and
new ore deposits. The ideal mining law is
one that places a premium on the development
and search for new mines and at the same
time discourages the holding of mining lands
with little or no attempt at exploration.

At the present time this Province has
on the tax roll some 30,000 parcels of mining
lands which would aggregate some 1,200,000
acres or 1,^75 square miles."

V7hile this may sound like an enormous piece
of land lying inactive, I believe it is in reality
only about one-half of one percent of the total land
available for prospecting in the great north country.
It is our hope, when the Mining Committee meets, that
all the problems involved,' and any changes in the Act,
will be focused upon and brought to the attention of
all the hon, members concerned, so that we may have a
full discussion on the matter. It is my hope that
by the time this Legislature meets again, the problem
of mining lands in this Province may have been
thoroughly studied, and a new Act may be introduced
which will eliminate the holding of patent lands in
the Province, by people who are either very inactive,
or have done nothing to bring the land into production
in any shape or form.

It is not an easy problem, because in some

D-13

areas you have the holding of large blocks, on which
there is being done a great job in connection with
the production of minerals in this Province, while
in other areas, you have smaller tracts, where no
attempt has been made to negotiate the sale of them,
or do anything with them. It is my hope that by
this time next year, we will have an Act prepared to
bring to this House, which will eliminate this
problem, and yet not affect the sacred rights of people
who now hold patented lands.

I hope that each hon, member of this House
who is interested in this subject will attend
the meetings of this Committee, and we could all have
the benefit of such knowledge as you may have on this
subject. I see sitting in front of me the hon.
member for St. Patrick (Mr. Roberts) who has had
considerable experience, as have a number of other
hon, members of the House, and we hope to have the
benefit of your experience in our discussions. It
is a difficult problem. It is not a problem we can
rush into without a great deal of thought, and a
great deal of consideration.

In closing, Fr. Speaker, I wish to emphasize
again that we in the Department of Mines and this

D-14

Government hope to bring in legislation at the next
Session of this Legislature, which will bring to an
end the difficulties v;hich were causing concern to
so many people in this country.

I referred briefly to Northern Ontario and the
gas pipeline, and the fact that the importation of
natural gas would mean a great increase in the indus-
trial capacity of this great Province, I have referred
to the problem of mining land. All the factors enter
into the industrial growth of this great Province of
ours, which is expanding at such a terrific rate, and
to which the world is looking in regard to its national
defence needs, and I am sure that every hon. member
here views with great satisfaction the leadership of
the Hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost), which he has given
in this field, and the leadership he is giving to the
people of Ontario to ensure that Ontario will continue
in its growth, and that industrially it will improve
to meet the needs of the people of this Province,

( Take "E" follows )

E-1

MR. F. R. OLIVER (Leader of the Opposition):
Mr. Speaker, I was very interested in the hon. Minister's
(Mr. Gernniell) talk about bringing Alberta gas to Ontario.
Would he mind telling the House what is the proposed
cost of laying this pipe line from Alberta to Ontario
and the size of the pipe line to be used? I think
that would be interesting.

HON. MR. GEMMELL: Mr. Speaker, in reply to
the question of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.
Oliver) the information that we have available at
the present time is that this pipe line will re-
quire, I believe, three-quarters of a million tons
of steel, the pipe line will be 30 inches in diameter
to Winnipeg and 24 inches through Ontario, and will
cost, from the information I have, in the neighbour-
hood of ^250 million.

(Page E-2 follows)

E-2

MR. D. M. XERR (Dovercourt ) : Mr. Speaker^
it is with some timidity that I rise in this august
body to make a maiden speech. I want first of all,
with those who have already spoken;, to extend here,
sir, my congratulations on your being again elected
to the position of Speaker.

Sitting back as a neophite -- I was going
to sayamateur" or 'novice, but realizing that the
hon. member from Wentworth (Mr. Child) might find
some difficulty in that tertr^ I prefer to remain
just a neophite watching what is going on. I
must say, sir, that your position and your manner
of handling this Assembly is indeed an Intimation
to one sitting back that the hon. members knew the
Speaker whom they had elected.

I would like also to say that it is my wish
for the hon Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) and the
members of the Government that they may always be
able to look to those on the Speaker's left with
the same sympathetic attitude as those occupying
that position have today .

I would like to extend also congratulations
to the two new Ministers, the Minister of Public
Works (Mr. Thomas) and the Minister of Education
(Mr. Dunlop). Both of them have merited the promo-
tloaa they have received and in their new positions
their usefulness will be put to the test.

I am reminded that in my profession it does
not matter what :kind of speech I make, it is liable

«• J

E-3

tc come cut a sermon. Therefore, if I begin to

moralize, you will understand that it is not being

done intentionally. I do hope that the hon. members

of this House will extend to me that greatest of all

Christian gifts ^ that of charity, and realize that

if there is anything m what I have to say, in

any way reiterates the topic of a former speaker,

it is purely coincidental.

I have had many serious thoughts as to the

responsibility of an hon. member of this House. The

other day I read an article by George Matthew Adam

that seems to, in my mind at any rate, reveal what

our responsibility is. May I be permitted to read

it?

"In a free land every citizen has
his responsibility to perform if he
desires good government-- as Abraham
Lincoln put it "government of the people,
by the people, and for the people.'
No one is to be left out if it is a
free government, but this kind of

government must have its alert
watchers all the time. Government,
first of all;, belongs to the people
-- not they to the government. A
stock owner in a corporation is con-
cerned with how this organization is
run and keeps an eye upon all its
workings. If irregularities or
crookedness is evidenced, that stock
owner does something about it and
that promptly. V/e,as stock holder
citizens, every individual, should
be just as concerned. We cannot
have good government when we pay no
attention as to how it is run. No
government can ever be perfect but
it can be kept honest . If the
people's representatives elected by
them do not perform honestly, they
t can be voted out and they always

should, regardless of any party
affiliation. Nothing in a free
government is so important as the
privilege of the ballot. Those who

1

E-4

do not faithfully use it do not deserve good
government. Always register and vote at any
election or forever hold your tongue should
be the procedure. The moral and spiritual
fibre of a nation begins its deterioration
the moment a citizen neglects his duty to the
government. Nothing is more sacred in a
democracy than the free privilege of the ballot.
All of us suffer humiliation when an elected
representative of ours violates his oath of
office.

"William Ewart Gladstone, the great English
statesman, once said: 'It is the duty of the
Government to make it easy for the people to do
right and difficult to do wrong.*

"We are witnessing these days too many
instances where governments have been making
it too easy for some people to do wrong. The
corrective process still remains v/ith the
individual in government r It is his government
and he can take pride in that fact."

Mr. Speaker, it has been my privilege to
represent the riding of Dovercourt for four years on
the Board of Education of the City of Toronto, and I
would like to take issue with statements made in this
House by one hon. member at least that it was about
time the municipal government should have a represent-
ative on a Board of Education. As an elected representa-
tive to a city body we both stand on the same ground,
and we both have the same recourse to the electors
who have elected us. For people to state that one
public body is going wild in spending public money,
is a poor football to be kicked around.

I feel at home on the subject of education

E-5

and if my remarks deal with that more than others
it will be because It is one subject that is very
close and dear to me. One need not be in an
executive position to detect the problems that our
young people have to face today. We are all
interested that they should have the greatest
possible opportunities in life and I think in
Canada -- and in Ontario in particular -- these
opportunities are best applied through our educa-
tional system.

Our Government has xn the past >ears of
office done its utmost to increase these oppor-
tunities and to extend them equally to all. On
the level of subject learning? improved organization,
provision of free equipment, and revolutionary changos
in the subsidy system iiavo eminently bettered
educational facilities and made them available to
more people, more children, in Ontario.

The hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Oliver
has a clause in his motion In reply to tho Spoech
from the Throne, deploring the failure to provide
adequate assistance for education to municipalities.
May I quote that in 19^^ the grants for education
were $8,700,000; in 1951, $46,900,000, and for 1952
most likely they will be larger when the budget is
presented.

We are all interested in the lowering of the
tax burden on municipalities and though education
costs have risen seriously in the past ten years.
I think that in the list of grants I have just

E-6

read, the municipal taxpayer has received at least
some assistance.

Mr. Speaker retired from the Chair.

Mr. 0. F, Villeneuve (Glengarry) in the Chair.

Today the aim of education is to develop
the potential ability and skill of every child
attending school. We have devised special kinds
of educativn to suit special abilities and means.
For example, there are classes for crippled children,
classes to meet the needs of deaf and hard-of-hearing
children, sisht-saving classes for children with
limited eyesight, and auxiliary classes for slow
learners. Our commercial, technical and vocational
schools provide specialized instruction in almost
every subject you can think of. The trend then
is shifted from standardized education to atten-
tion to individual need.

Along with this has gone greater freedom
for teachers and mere emphasis on local initiative,
and may I digress here, Mr. Speaker, to draw the
attention of the hon. Minister of Education
(Mr. Dunlop) to the fact that in the City of Toronto
a new Normal School is long overdue. Those who
know the history of the old Normal School and how
the Federal Government has taken it over and then
later turned it into the Ryerson Institute, will
remember that the Niormal S chool was bought from the
City of Toronto as an old public school, and at the
present time it is altogether too small and inadequate

-.::!

E-7

to train the vast number of young men and woraon tea-
chers who are going out into cur schools to mold
the life and weltbeing of our children.

In the past, the Department of Education set
the course of studies, supplied the textbooks and
set the Entrance examinations. Today these things
are left almost entirely? to the discretion of the
local authority. There is no reason whatever for
artificial barriers between public and secondary
schools and when the Entrance examinations were
abolished, this Province made a great step forward
educationally. Education has been attempting to
fit the .individual, to fit his responsibility in
the modern world. In fact, I think I can say that
the main purpose of education has been democracy,
that the basis of our democracy is respect for the
Government. So our educational system has come to
emphasize the importance and the training and
development of individual personality.

All this IS good. But in the last half of
the twentieth century we have come to a fresh stage
in man's development. The past fifty years has been
an age of great scientific discovery. I need only
mention three of them -- the invention of the aero-
plane and jet propulsion, the discovery of radio and
television, the splitting of the atom and the develop-
ment of atomic energy. These discoveries have forced
new problems upon us and they have revolutionized our
attitudes towards them. The discoveries and

E-8

inventions I have spoken of have one thing in common;
they have tended to reduce the size of our world in
terms -of space and time. There was a time not so
long ago when one cared little in Canada what hap-
pened in China or Korea or even in Russia, but today
things are different. The darkness separating us
from other people has vanished. We live side by
side with our neighbours whether we like it or not
and everything they do affects our lives. IN
this shrunken world we are called upon to face new
and urgent problems -- problems of government,
problems of welfare, problems of peace and problems
of war.

The challenge of today is directed against
the very basis of our system -- against that
respect for government that we cherish so dearly,
and against the educational system that tries to
develop the capacities of the individual to the
very utmost. V/e are pledged to resist this
totalitarianism which is indeed a survival of
the age old despotism out of which man should have
grown long ago. We' have taught ourselves how
to live at peace within our community. V/e need
to learn how to live at peace in a united and
democratically organized world. Thus, we have
a greater emphasis upon the subject of social
studies. Our children are now learning more than
ever before about the lives and problems of people
in other lands. By film, and I hope in the near

E-9

future by television. we will be able to place in our
schools something to bridge the gap of time and space
that separates the people of our world from the people
living next door or in another country.

(Take "F" follows)

F-1

May I extend my congratulations to the hon.
Minister of Labour (Mr. Daley) and particularly for his
statement made yesterday before this House, Some of
the most beneficial labour lav/s in the world pertain
to this province of ours and they are products of the
present administration. Some of them, such as V/ork-
men's Compensation, have been accepted as models the world
over. I would suggest to any hon. maiiber of this House
if they have any doubts about it, take a trip down
to University Avenue and visit the offices dovm there
and see the competent manner in which this part of the
Department of Labour is handled. This does not mean v>7e
tout ourselves as implacable enemies of capital as some
parties advertise themselves. V/e believe capital and
labour deserve square deals. There can be no doubt
that one of the prime moves for modern social reform
and welfare has been the movement of trade unions, they
have by united effort brought themselves just treatment.
In doin^ so, they have raised living standards for all
and made life more secure for others as v/ell as them-
selves. Great credit must go to trade unions and to
their leaders for these ■ successful acts making the lot
of all Canadians better than it v/as before. These
unions are not only important socially but the number
of their members make them a formidable, political . •

F-2

force as well. Here I think we find the answer to all
the time and money spent by certain parties in trying
to prove that we, of this Government, are anti-labour.
This propaganda is an insult to the intelligence of the
men and v/omen who, by united effort, hard and con-
tinuous, have raised themselves and their fellows so
far above conditions, even those that existed only twenty
years ago. These same parties, hov^ever, have some
difficulty and make a large amount of noise with little
thought of how to do more or better for the working men
than has been done by the present Government.

I believe that labour and capital are partners,
I believe they should share problems, not create them
for one another. The Ontario Labour Relations Board under-
stands there should be the best feelings between these two
giants, neither of v/hich we can do without and neither
of which can do without the other. Three of the most
important functions are to improve working conditions,
to extend protection to the worker and provide a just,
efficient method of settling disputes as far as possible
before work stoppages result.

I might digress and say that this province is
indebted to the hon. Minister of Labour {llv. Daley) for
the manner in which he has in the past exemplified the
working methods of his Department v/hen 'labour and

F-3

management could not get along.

ApiTrenticeship is now aided and supervised
by the Department of Labour. Boys entering trades are
assured of a good working condition during their apprentice-
ship and that by provincial regulation and inspection.
Trade courses are provided in the city of Toronto and
Hamilton. The Factory, Shop and Office Building Act
assures healthy and pleasant working conditions for all
workers by provincial Inspection. Every worker in
Ontario is entitled to vacation with pay unconditionally.
The stamp system takes care of the seasonal, transient
and casual worker. As we ivere told yesterday, the clinic
out at Malton operated by the Department of Labour is
doing a masterpiece in the work of rehabilitating those
who have been unfortunate in their work.

May I pay my tribute to the hon. Minister of
Lands and Forests (Mr. Scott) for the excellent work
done in his Department. Ontario forests from 1800 on,
were attacked ruthlessly, firstly, for timber for the
British Naval building in the Napoleonic v/ar; then for
lumber to hurry the fantastic expanding need of a
growing United States. This same market now dominates
our forests but the demand has changed to one for pulp
and paper to feed the massive United States presses.
However, the slaughter of Ontario's resources continued

F-4

on unabated. In 1943, our Government's first act was to
stop the heedless policy of the preceding administration
by cancelling seven or eight very unwise agreements. The
following steps have all been in the same direction,
tov/ards protecting and conserving one of the largest
forest resources in the v/orld. Small Europeon countries
have realized long ago that only by sound conservation
and cutting practices can they hope to retain and use
their forest v/ealth. Many of our resources were con-
sidered endless and this has proven to be tragically
wrong.

From its election in 1943, the present Govern-
ment had one of the world's largest staffs in forest
management . In this it has been criticized for not
cutting enough, for cutting too much; for making money,
for not making money, and for every conceivable fault
that could be twdsted out of its successes.

It should be unnecessary for me to cover the
vast amount of work that is being done in pest control,
fire fighting and all the rest of this, by this great
Department. This Department is in safe hands and the
hon. Minister (Mr. Scott) is doing a good job.

In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I want to present,
as most of the hon, member have, some pet theories of my
own. I would like the hon. Minister of Highv;ays (Hr.Doucett)

F-5

to consider the possibility of lifting the speed limits
in tovms and cities so that the local municipalities
and the local authorities can reduce the speed limit
in our school areas. It is a matter of great con-
cern to the parents and to the citizens , that a man does
not break the speed limit and yet cause hazards for
children around these areas. At the present time, it
is impossible for any city to tone dovm the speed, and
I think something might be done along this line in the
city of Toronto in particular. I am sure the example
set by some of the larger cities in Canada and the
United States might be follov/ed,

_I 7/ould like to say also that we have three
classes of people to-day who are suffering a great in-
convenience. I \70uld like to make an appeal to the
Federal Government that something might be done for our
Old Age Pensioners in the matter of cost of living. V/hen
|40. a month was set as a standard, it might have been
adequate, but it certainly is not adequate to-day.
v7hen the scale of rates -was drawn up and applied, they v/ere
necessary, according to the Government. They certainly
do not apply to-day, and the cost of living should be
added there. Also, in our avn field, I would make an
appeal for the cost of living to be added for those
in receipt of Mothers' Allowance.

F-6

There has been a lot of talk about how much
education costs and I would like to draw a comparison
and ask you to compare your bill of taxes where the cost
of education is computed. Havin^^ compaied it, compare
the depreciation on your car, surely the lives of our
children are more important than that depreciation. I
understand that you can buy a 1951 car to-day for $600.
under the price last year. I might say there ere no
tax bills that are carrying a #600.00 cost of educa-
tion on them.

With particular reference to my own riding,
I hope this Government, as soon as we receive the green
light, from Ottav/a, in regard to steel, will do some-
thing to eliminate the two bad railway crossings within
the precinct of my riding, one in particular on Dufferin
Street — there are two of them on Dufferin Street, one
north and one south, but the one on the north in
particular is a hazard. The city of Toronto has spent
a lot of money in widening this street so it would be
a traffic highway out of the city, but right at this
railroad crossing, the pavement narrows and nothing can
be done until an underpass is made.

Mr. Speaker, I want to conclude by saying
that we, on this side of the House, the majority of us
at any rate, are one hundred percent behind the

F-7

Government on the other side. As the hon. Attorney-
General (Mr, Porter} says, it is nice to sit on this
side and look over into the faces of friends. Vi^e have
not got an enemy to look at at all, only the backs of
their heads.

J.iR. J. A. PEINGLE (Addlngton): Mr. Speaker,
in rising to make a few observations and contribute
something to this Debate, I do not do so v/ith any
thought in mind of prolonging it to any great extent, I
have in mind that I have the privilege to represent that
great rural constituency of Frontenac and Addington.
I am surrounded by the County of Leeds, the city of
Kingston, Prince Edward-Lennox, Renfrew and Hastings,
and each hon. member from those constituencies have
made a contribution to this Debate. Each one of those
hon. members represent ridings v/ith urban populations.
My riding, of course, has a purely rural population
and I think I would be remiss in my duty if I did not
have a few things to say in the interests of the people
of the County of Frontenac and the County of Addington.

For the benefit of those hon. members who
have just come into this House, I thought I would like
to tell you something about the County of Frontenac,
Many of you know the County because many institutions
are situated in that part of the province. It is a

. F-8

County that probably has more different kinds of
activity , -farming, lumbering, trapping, educational
centres, military centres , -than any country
in this province. I doubt if there is any county in
the province that has a greater number of things going
on than the County of Frontenac. We have there, as
the hon. member for Kingston (Mr. Nlckle) told you, the
great nylon plant, the aluralnum plant, the Ford Motor
plant. I did have the privilege of being the represen-
tative of the aluminum plant until the 1st of this
month when the hon. member for Kingston (Mr. Nlckle)
took over. He is going to be the C omptroller of that
wide area which houses so many fine, new people
who came to this country in order to make a living in
the days of the depression, and settled there, and
are now associated with the aluminum plant. They are
all very prosperous and a fine class of people. I
would say to the hon. member for Kingston (Mr. Nickle)
that they have been good to me in every election In
which I have run, and I am sure they will be good to
him.

Mr. Speaker, I was glad to hear the hon.
member for Kingston (Mr. Nickle) speak earlier and
with such weight in connection with the St. Lawrence
Seaway. Of course, the southern part of my riding

F-9

borders along the St. Lawrence and it is a pleasure

to know that that great power development v/ill come to

Ontario, It will be of great benefit to every part

of this province, particularly beneficial to the riding

v/hich I have the privilege to represent, because we

border along the St. Lawrence River and Lake Ontario,

V/hy my County is called"Addington" , I never
could tell you. I have two counties, the County of
Frontenac, there are 13 townships, and in Addington, I
have 5, but they still call it the riding of Addington,
Perhaps they wanted to head the list so they used a
name that started v/ith an "A". In the northern part
of that riding, it is a different picture. Up there,
v/e go along with the old Portland road, a road built
by the British government for the same purpose that
Fort Henry Vv^as built, and it stretches into that country
almost to Renfrew. V\re have different roads there,
38 highv/ay, 41 highway, No. 7 highway and have a number
of people coming into that picturesque country. I
doubt if there is any part of this province that is
more interesting. Those who have travelled by No, 41
highv^ay v/ill realize right away that it is very plcture-
esque and scenic, and has many possibilities for
tourists and sportsmen. We are very proud of the
northern part of the County ^though it is becoming a

'( -'•■:

F-10

non-revenue producing part of the County, Is there
any other riding that is able to produce and hand over
to the Government <of this province well over #100,000.
in American fishing licenses? That is v^hat my riding
was able to do this year, well over $100,000. in
American licenses alone.

(Take "G" follows)

G-1

Therefore, I have no complaints to make to
my good friend the hon. Minister of Lands and Forests
(Mr. Scott), because I think he is doing a grand job.
Of course, I am like my good friends who used to sit
in Opposition and with whom nothing vms ever good
but "it did not go far onough and so I would like
to see the hon. Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. Scott)
go a little father in the few things that confront that
great area of land. During the first War, it was
necessary, of course, to have timber and lumber, and
at that time, we were just building highway No. 41, and
a great many thousand feet of lumber was cut in
the northern country and transported dov/n that highway
to various destinations v/here it was useful in war work.
However, I.Ir. Speaker, I v^onder if we are not carrying
that a little too far. Our timber is being depleted
very fast. These very large companies which como in there
have wonderful mills, they have good working conditions,
they pay good wages, they supply good food and good beds
to the people who work for them; nevertheless., I would
like to see a little halt to their operations, par-
ticularly in my part of the riding, and opportunity given
some of the smaller mills, and the neighbours given
a little more of this timber to cut. It is being
depleted very fast in some areas 3-nd it will be

_.y;;-

371V,, a-:

G-2

difficult even to harbour deer, game, and other wild
life if it is carried too far,

\7hen I hear hon. members who represent ridings
in the northern part of Ontario rise and tell about the
thousands and thousands of acres of timber they have
in that part of the country, I think sometimes we forget
that we in southern Ontario have a bit of timber too.
We will not have it much longer unless we pay a little
more attention to it than we are paying. We must plant
more trees than we are planting, we must reforest this
country which we have here, becausQ> particularly in
those rough lands, there virill be nothing left in about
two or three years except rocks where the soil has been
washed away^ There will be nothing left for the natives
to live on. The fur business has not been doing well,
prices are too low.. ". Tne tourist business is all that
will be left for the people of the northern part to
live on unless they are allowed to cut some of this
timber to a greater extent. They stretch it out much
longer than the large companies do, and while it is not
being neglected, I rather think it is not getting the
attention it should and I should like to see more
attention paid to it.

I do want to corxiiend the hon. Minister of
Lands and Forests (Mr. Scott) for the grand job he has

,Wt:

G-3

done in fish hatcheries and in distributing fish

throughout the country. Altogether, I think we have

come a long, long v;ay in the last eight years in
protecting wildlife and developing those attrac-
tions which bring American tourists and American
dollars, in the last few years. I well remember
when the Hon. Mr. Dunbar was Minister of Game and
Fisheries in the early days of this Government.
Revenue was not very great at that time but it has
become a tremendous revenue now and I am glad to say
the hon. Minister (Mr. Scott) plows back a good share
of It into developing those things. ♦

HON. H. R. SCOTT (Minister of Lands and
Forests) : All of it.

MR. PRINGLE: All of it. Thank you. Now,
Mr. Speaker, I want to say a few things to the hon.
Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Kennedy). I see he
is not in his seat but that does not matter; he has
left enough landmarks in this Province to allow him
a few days off if he Is not feeling well. I would
like him to leave one more landmark for himself.
I complained today that we are not going far
enough in these things . To • my mind he is not
going quite far enough In an amendment to an Act
which ho brought down here a few years ago. The
Community Halls Act. I happened to be on the
committee that considered that Act, and I remember
when we gave this 25 per cent for building skating

G-4

rinks, recreation centres, community halls, etc. it
made everybody happy and particularly did it make
happy people out In the country and in small com-
munities. The trouble is, donations are not as
handy in the small communities as they are in bigger
centres. When you get a little village of five or
six hundred people it is a little difficult to
gather too much money, so it was then and is now
my feeling that in the case of these smaller com-
munities that build $5,000 or $10,000 projects
anyway, the Government should pay 50 per cent
up to $10,000 for skating rinks, community centres
or community halls and a graduating scale from
there on, because there has been no Act ever
put on the statute books of this Province that has
done more to keep rural people at home and to keep
rural boys and girls satisfied and thus help the
juvenile delinquency problem than has this Act
which the hon. Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Kennedy)
sponsored and brought into this House. I wish
he would give consideration to that suggestion
because he intimated to me he thought it would be
a good thing, and I believe he realizes the im-
portance of decentralizing people. Wo talk about
" decentralization' but if we do not do things like
this we are simply centralizing everything and no
doubt you have enough young people in your cities
today, but if we do something to induce rural boys
and girls to stay there it is much better for this

iri^

'Q,..-

,..'-!»!■

•n jDfjH

■O.d 1 c" W

G-5

Province and much better for all those communities.

I wish I had been here yesterday because
I always like to hear the hon. Minister of Labour
(Mr. Daley). It made me feel pretty good, Mr.
Speaker, to hear hon. members of this House jrise
and praise the hon. Minister of Labour. He has
not always been getting this praise, you know. I
remember a few years ago this was not the case, but
now when he stands up here I have often thought that
although I have never had an opportunity of re-
ceiving a lecture from a college professor, it has
always seemed to me that he was like one; he acts
like a teacher, he gets up here and tells us the
real facts about things without any trouble or
without pretending he is making a speech at all.
When I heard txie hon. member for Essex North (Mr.
Reaume) the other day, it gave me great pleasure
to see the hon. Minister (Mr. Daley) coming into
his own because there is no one who could have
carried on and settled those strikes like he did
with his great persuasive qualities really coming
into play.

However, there is one thing I would like
to have him do too. I realize, Mr. Speaker, that
It probably is unfair to ask Industry today to dig
down in their pockets to pay for something which
happened, fifteen, twenty or twenty-five years
ago; it is Just unfortunate those people were born
twenty -five or thirty years too soon, but they were

G-6

working for wages In those days of two or three
dollars a day, and they got hurt Just the same aa
people working for fifteen dollars a day, and
after awhile they became fit only for light labour.
But we have no light labour out in the country,
none whatever; all they have got is the task of
chopping wood, there are no logs to cut, no
shrubbery to look after or elevators to run;
there is no light labour and they are at the
mercy of the municipality and it weighs heavily on
the municipalities, particularly those who are
assessed only for $50,000, $60,000, $75,000 or
$100,000. They find it difficult to take care of
these people, who have to be kept warm and fed Just
the same as anyone else.

It is true that this new Act which our
gifted chief has brought in for the benefit of those
between sixty-five and sixty-nine is going to de
wonderful things, but there are still a few people
who are not as yet sixty-five, and while I do not
talce the position that it would be fair to punish
industry or levy on them to provide that money today,
I rather think there should be some way around that
whereby some of these old people who are now getting
$8, $10 or $12 a month, 15 per cent of one dollar and
fifty cents a day, which they earned at that, time, should
be a: little better jtak en. cajTes, of ttraoi; t-hey. are .

I heard the hon. member for Ontario (Mr.
Thomas) mention that the other day. It has always

Jwr-

b.i ;jj£jM ,ocii*r .c-caff ■ jtj ■i'l:;?:

x^^

G-7

been in my mind and I believe we should give it
some serious consideration. I expect it would
t^ke a tremendous amount of money to go into the
whole thingj but we have not got to go into it on
such a large scale as labour is today, but we could
at least take some of the pressure off the munici-
palities ' hands and give some of these poor old
people a little better opportunity to live.

I assure you, Mr. Speaker, I shall be
through in just a second. I am sorry, as you all
are, about our hon. Minister of Highways (Mr.
Doucett). Probably we never had a better Minister
of Highways than the Hon*. Minister (Mr. Doucett)
and it seems too bad that he had this unfortunate
accident and is not present in the House at this
time. It Is somewhat of a revelation, you know,
to have so many hon. members get up and make
speeches tn such a wide range.-. of 'subjects without
one that I have noticed repeating anyone else.
They have had their own thoughts and their own
subjects to talk on and it is refreshing to hear
so many different subjects discussed by so many
of our own membors. I am sure the hon. Prime
Minister (Mr. Frost) must be very, very proud to
have the vcte of confidence which he received on
N6.T. 22nd and of those fine membGrs with which he
is surrounded today. i do hope the good work they
have started will continue because we like to hear
them .

•

G-8

I have a little worry, Mr. Speaker, about
our four-lane highway. It does not seem to be
getting along as fast as I would like to see it.
There is a bad bottleneck between Napanee and
Brockville, particularly from Kingston to Cataraqul
along No. 2, and I do hope the hon. Minister (Mr.
Doucett) has something in mind to clear up the
situation in that section of the country this
year. It has been spoken of now for a long time,
and I hope there is something in the offing this
year in connection with the four-lane highway.

Living as I do In the northern part of the
riding, what they call "the sticks", I am greatly
interested in lead-in roads. The highways are fine;
we are glad to have them, but I am Interested in
having a road come to the back concessions by which
one can get onto a highway. We well remember the
Hon. Mr. Hepburn. When he was here it was the
fellows in the back concessions for whom he was going
to do something. He forgot all about them when
he got into office, so it is up to this Government
to take over and do it for them because the people
in the back concessions, do not forget, are worthy
of consideration as well as anyone else, and I do
hope that in my riding something will be done,
although I have been used as well as anybody and I
have nothing to complain *out along that line.
It has been said it is the squeaking wheel that
gets the grease, and I want to put it in the fore-
front and keep it before the attention of the hon.

G-9

Minister of Highways (Mr. Doucett) that that countrj/
certainly needs roads. It is hilly country, a good
share cf it is sandy or rocky country and it is not
easy to build roads; it costs a tremendous amount of
money to do so, and municipalities with small assess-
ments need a lot of help from the Provincial Govern-
ment .

Mr. Speaker, I am finished. That is all I
want to say. Our gifted hon. Prime Minister (Mr.
Frost) told us the other day that he at no time was
going to be complacent in this House, ^ven if he
did have a big majority, he was still going to
create and foster friendly relations with the Federal
Government, and bring to the Province all those
things which are our Just due, give everything to
the Dominion Government which justly belongs to them,
and carry on as though we had an Opposition sitting
across there -- we have an Opposition, you know --
en account of which he would have to "watch his step."
I really believe that a Gcvernment which started out
in 19^3 as a people's government, which has continued
as a people's government, which has administered the
affairs of this Province with a view to the well-
being of and in the interests of the welfare of these
people, will still continue to do so for a long time
to come.

G-10

MR. G. ;, H-^iMA (Huron-Bruce): Mr. Speaker,
hon. members Ox the Ontario Legislature and our hon.
Prime Minister (Mr. Frost), it is a pleasure and an
honour this afternoon to have the privilege of
congratulating my friend the hon. member for
London (Mr. Robarts) and my good friend the hon.
member for ./ellington North (Mr. Root) on the
speeches they made on the Motion for an ^iddress
in reply to the Speech from the Throne.

I am very happy to receive that applause,
and very happy to have been an hon. member of this
House since 1943 o It seems to me the new hon.
members have missed a great deal. You should have
been in politics long ago because the people of this
Province feel that this Government has done a good job.

I would like to mention the new hon. members
amongst the seventy-nine Conservatives who have been
elected to this Ontario Legislature r This is a
Legislature that will long be remombered for several
things. One is the seventy-nine members; another is the
fact that we have a new Lieutenant-Governor; we also
had that great visitor from Michigan, Governor V/illlams.

Td new hon, members, may I say I come from
V/ingham, Ontario, up in Huron. I have had some
experience in municipal life, being Mayor of my town
for some five years, and it is gratifying to have been
able to come here after the last four elections and
feel that this Government is getting stronger and
strongero

G-11

I should like also to pay a compliment to
the Liberals who supported me. I am not one of
those fighting men, I know how to handle them, and
they have all been perfect gentlemen.

Passing on to the next row, I would just
like to mention at this time our QDod friend tte
hon. member for Cochrane South (Mr. Grummett) and
our good friend and hon. member for Ontario (Mr.
Thomas), I believe what is left of the C.C.F. is
maybe the best part of it.

And to the hon. member for S-^, Andrew (Mr.
Salsberg) I v/ould suggest that he should move out
with MacLeod, -f^verybody likes the hon. member,
when he is sitting nice and quiet.

I have forgotten to say a word to Mr* Speaker.
I was so happy v/hen he was elected at the last elec-
tion because he is a grand Speaker for this Province,

I would like nov\f to say a word or two to the
"Ginger Group" over there, •'e have the fattest member
in the House, and we have got the youngest member in
the House, so we are very proud to be here and feel
that we are of some importance, in this territory.

In 1943 we had good men. V/e have lost a lot
of good men, good men have been defeated, but today,
looking back over '43, '45, '48 and again '51, to you
hon. members may I say it is a pleasure to be able to
say a good word about the Conservative Party.

I would like to mention the late Hon. Russell
Kelley today, and also refer to the ..late Doctor

G-12

Taylor. We have had sotne very fine men since 19^3
and I hope you do not let us down. We have a lot
of lawyers here, and I know they are going to need
a little handling.

If you feel as I do, you will agree we
cannot get along without the farmer, the man on the
land, the man who builds the factories and the man
who feeds the people. Today it is very important,
and I like to hear the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost)
say: "I am one of the little people.- I like to go
to the Fall Fairs i like to come up to your con-
ventions and steal all the votes; I like the people
to come up and shake hands with me. That is
the scrt of people this Government consists of, and to
you memberswho have been newly elected. I hope you
will appreciate the kind of people you are associating
v;ith.

I am not going to say a great deal more, Mr.
Speaker. I would like to mention something about
welfare. I have a great desire to see the people of
this Province get a fair deal. I think under this
Government they have had an excellent deal and I
think there is a better deal coming as we get bigger
and stronger. As more people come into this
promised land I feel this Government is vJllling to
support and help every individual in the Province.

Security is a wonderful thing. The security
of the people of your Province is your Province, and I

0-13

would like to mention at this time that the hon.
Minister of Welfare (Mr. Goodfellow) has done a
marvellous Job.

(Take "H" follows. )

H-1

The Hon. Minister (Mr. Goodfellow) , too,
has taken care of people when things were rough. He
has provided for the aged at the age of seventy, for
assistance to between sixty-five and sixty-nine. I
had tv70 very nice letters, sir, to-day from two
people in my riding who were entitled to the sixty-
five to sixty-nine assistance and they were very
thankful, as they needed the money.

Furthermore, I would like to mention the
fact that this Government should see fit to look after
the crippled children, persons from, say, eighteen to
sixty. I believe that is good law, I believe it is
what the people of this Province are looking for, and
I know I would also like to say a word about the
widows, comprising 5^Jo, which this Province has. There
is no finer group in the world than good Conservative
women. So, I would like to mention that there are cases
in my riding, — one where a widov; is left with three
children and is without compensation. Her husband
did not get a very large wage to start with, and if
she gets compensation, she cannot get childrens* allow-
ance. I would like to leave that with the Government
to think over. It is only a suggestion, but I know
it is a good suggestion and I know that the widows
are deserving of the children's allowance, as well as

H-2

compensation,

I would just like to say a word to the Hon,
Minister of Labour (Mr. Daley). The Hon. Minister has
been in the limelight; he has been stealing all the
thunder in the newspapers. He has done an excellent
job. An old man came up to me in my town the other day
and said, "If you see the Minister, just mention the
fine job he has done; he has saved this country millions
of dollars." So, may I pass that compliment on to the
Hon. Minister,

The Hon. Minister of L:unicipal Affairs (Mr,
Dunbar) has shaken hands with more people around the
Royal York Hotel, I think, than anybody down there.
He is very kind to people. He is an asset to any
government and I hope and trust he has many years
to live,

I would like to say a word or two about the
heart clinic, I think I mentioned it last year.
^'.Tien you read every day in the papers about people
dying of heart trouble, perhaps twice as many people
as of cancer, I would like to bring that to the
attention of our very important man, the Hon. Minister
of Health (Mr, Phillips) who is in charge of the health
of this Province,

H-3

However, I will skip that and go on to the
fact that I would like to mention something about the
Hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost). I do not want to get
sentimental, but it does bring back memories to me
v/hen the Hon. Prime Minister mentions that sooner or
later he is going to bring in his Budget. Then I
think of that good-looking brother of his who used
to sit up there with much pride and listen to his
brother present the Budget, These are some of the
thing-9 which happen around a building of this kind,
We know he comes from a great family, with a great
background. The people of this province have never
seen anything like the result of the last election,
and I can assure the hon. members that it v/as the
Hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) v;ho secured fifty
percent of the votes for each one of us,

I hope, sir, that I am not talking too long.
I think maybe common sense is the scarcest thing
in the world, I believe good salesmanship is a good
thing, and I think the service we give the people of
this Province, is something they arc expecting of us.

I would just like to touch a minute on Travel
and Publicity. In order to travel you have to buy a
ticket, and perhaps to go to some other country and

H-4

find out what is going on in the world. In my case,
I think travelling provides a great education, and
our good friend the Hon. Minister of Travel and Pub-
licity (Mr. Cecile) has been doing an excellent job
but, you know, I tried to sell a little of Ontario
down in Kiami this year and I got quite a reception,
I interviewed the Miami News, told them what a great
province we had, and they said they knew more about
Ontario than they did about Canada, I felt quite proud
of that. I will say that salesmanship, organization,
common sense, governments which can stay in power and
serve the people as the people should be served, are
the important things.

I could go on here for some time, because
there are so many things to say. I would like to
speak of the young farmers and the Loan Act which
this Government is considering, where the young
farmers can get ,,20,000 to „>25,000. It will cost
him that to get started, but you must realize, hon,
members of this House, that you cannot get anywhere
without the farmers. I have found that out in my
riding.

I could go on and talk about the warble
fly or the Bangs disease or the Hon. Leader of the
Opposition's farm, or the hon. member for Niagara

H-5

Falls (Mr, Houck), but to-day I just want to bring
home to you the fact that there are so inany things
in which the Hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) has shown
us so much leadership, and in which he has been doing
a grand job in so many ways. I believe it is important
that the hon. members of this Legislature should try
to help him and to take off some of his load and
burden. I am quite happy about his committees on
Rent Control and on Conservation, and the other
different committees, I think it is a good idea for
the people of this province; I think it is a good
idea for the hon. members of this Government,

I cannot go on forever. I would like to
say a few words about the speech by the Hon. Minister
of Mines (Mr, Gemmell) this afternoon. I am a great
booster for Northern Ontario, I hope some day to
see it, I do not know whether I will or not, I
hope to see the day when Northern Ontario will have
as many roads as V/estern Ontario and I would like
to pay the Minister a compliment; I think we have
the right man in the right place. He seems to have
a good knowledge of all the extensive legislation
which will come before this Legislature sooner or
later, and for that, I wish to congratulate the Hon,

■n

H-6

Minister. If there is going to be a war, I would
not want anybody better than the Hon. Provincial
Secretary (Mr. Welsh) to lead us.

We will come to education for a minute. I
would like to say a word about our new Minister of
Education (Mr, Dunlop). He has a terrific reputation
for being a high-class man throughout this Province,
and to my mind that is what the teachers and the
children of this Province are looking for, I am not
saying anything about the former Hon, Minister, the
Hon. Dana Porter. I think he did a marvellous work,
but, you see, it takes all kinds of people to make a
Government, and it takes all kinds of people to make
friends,

I hope I have not missed too many, I would
like to say a word or two about the Hon, Minister of
Public Works (Mr. Thomas). I would like to say to
him, let us spend money in building, let us have
Diore homes, let us have more parliament buildings,
let us create work and we will never have unemployment.
That may sound very silly. I was at the luncheon
to-day for Mr, Diefenbaker — three-quarters of the
audience were women, so I felt quite at home -- and
the statement was made that there are 350,000 people

H-7

out of work.

I think this rental commission is excellent
for the people of the Province, with the leader we
have in the person of the hon. Prime ItLnister (Mr.
Frost), It is a great thing to have people say-
something nice about you, and that is what they do
when I go back to my riding, so it makes me very
happy to be a member of this great Government, as
I have seen it improve from 1943 to date.

At this time I cannot go on without saying
a word about my two seatmates here. They are very
important and very nice people. They spend a lot of
money on me.

I think with those few remarks, I will return
to my subject of good roads. Good roads are important,
That is what the farmer wants; he wants some place to
go, and do not forget that they are building up the
Federation of Agriculture. Do not forget the seed
fair, the junior farmer — and I would like to ask
you who live in Toronto to never forget the rural
centres. If you have any money to spend, spend it in
the rural areas,

I hope that I have not talked out of turn
to-day. I know I have not even looked at my notes

H-a

yet.

Mr. Speaker, in conclusion I wish you all
the very best.

(Take "I" follows)

I-l

MR. A.G, FROST (Bracondale) : Mr. Speaker, I
wish to say how happy I am to be in this 24th
Legislature. I would also like to pay a tribute for
the courtesy and kindness of those employed in this
building who are conducting the business, welfare and
common good for the people of Ontario.

May I also congratulate the hon. Prime Minister
of this Province (Mr. Frost) for his wonderful leader-
ship. Mr. Speaker, I v/ish to congratulate the hon.
Prime Minister on the wonderful asset he possesses,
his ability to call each hon. member of the Assembly
by his first name and to make them all feel so much
at home in such a short period, with his friendly
attitude. I wish to thank,Mr. Speaker, each hon.
member of this Assembly for his friendliness*

Mr. Speaker, I would like to say something
about Bracondale, a really important riding in Ontario,
a riding with a wonderful background, a riding which
dates back to the early days of the Province, a riding
which I have represented as alderman. The on].y barracks
within 100 miles of Toronto is situated on the water-
front or south end of my riding, and that is Stanley
Barracks. There are many buildings of solid stone and
many of these walls are 4 feet thick and all hevm out
of solid rock, Dovetail Joints fitted together?
prefabricated in England and then shipped to Bracondale
district to be re-erected on the old Fort York grounds.
Many moats surround several of these buildings.
Earthen barrackades were also thrown up around many

1-2

other buildings. These barrack residences were occupied
by many families who grew up in the buildings, erected
as homes for the early pioneer soldiers, v/ho were then
stationed in Stanley Barracks in Toronto. Many noted
generals received their early training in these
barracks under the jurisdiction of the Royal Canadian
Dragoons, and many who served their country well in
the First '..\v id ^".ar received their training a t t he
barracks. served 8 months as a runner under
Colonel Collins and Colonel LePaney before enlisting
for service overseas.

During the period of the Second World '"'ar, when
homes were at a premium, these barracks were turned
over to the City of Toronto and accommodated at one
time 133 families who found it impossible to secure
other housing. These families are now located in
other parts of Toronto, and many of the buildings
were .torn down, while others of historical importance
remain and are being reconditioned for' historical
reasons.

To the east of Stanley Barracks are t emporary
barracks which were used by thousands of troops and
citizens from Norway during theF irst World War, thereby
receiving the name of Little Norvray. During the S.econd
World ""^ar, many thousands of men for the air crews were
stationed and trained in Little Norv/ay, my son being one
of them. These buildings are now being used as emergency
housing by over 100 families.

To the west and surrounding some of these buildings

I -3

are over 100 acres of land occupied by the largest
annual exhibition in the world, The Canadian National
Exhibition, having an attendance of over 2 million
people each year f or t he last few years. Every
country in the world has goods on display, and for
several years space has been at a premium despite the
100 odd acres of ground and buildings worth many
millions of dollars. Our grandstand, which is still in
my riding, was erected at a cost of over $3 million
dollars and will seat 28,000 people. The platform
for entertainment by three shows at one time is the
largest outdoor platform in the world.

Confined in the exhibition grounds is the
noted Coliseiom which sponsors again the largest annual
fall or stock fair in the world. Cattle, horses and
other animals, fruit and vegetables and flowers are
brought here from most remote parts of the world.
'Attendance here is the largest in the world for a
show of its kind.

Now, Mr. Speaker, don*t think I am boasting.
I am just quoting true factsj

On the way north we will come upon one of the
three city-owned incinerators which takes care of
about 60,000 tons of garbage per year. Then there is
the only city-owned public abattoir in Bracondale,
which slaughters yearly about 45,000 cattle and about
107.000 calves, hogs and lambs.

To the south, or on the waterfront, in front
of the exhibition grounds is Canada's largest aquatic

1-4

course, being approximately 1^ miles long. George
Young, the world's greatest swimmer, and many other noted
athletes have competed here for both swimming and
boating.

Some 40 odd years ago a breakwater v/as built
along the waterfront at a cost of several millions of
dollars. To the east and south of this v;aterfiDnt is
one of Toronto's most wonderful assets — our Toronto
Islands -- accessible only by ferries, which exclude
all car and truck fumes, and which provide a wonderful
outing for the poor and also families in higher
brackets who like the fresh lake air but cannot take
a trip farther afield.> According to history, these
islands were formed from the Scarborough Bluffs. The
water current from Lake Epie through Lake Ontario and
to the Str. Lawrence River had a return eddy, which
as the Scarborough Bluffs were being eroded was washed
back to form these islands, which are separated from the
mainland by Eastern and Uestern Gaps. Now here is
one place Toronto requires assistance. These islands
are not only used by Toronto people, but also many
people from the suburbs and further out enjoy them-
selves on these fresh water islands, with miles of fresh
water shoreline and with every facility possible,
including yacht clubs, several more of vmich are in the
making, many ball grounds, lawn bowling greens, rowing,
canoeing, and swimming. During these last few years the
water has risen to such a height that the marvellous picnic

grounds which are used by millions of people, and which
Is a haven for the children. Is being washed away.

(Take "J" follows.)

\

J-1

Hundreds of families reside on the islands
for 2, 3 or 4 months of the year, and during the housing
shortage many families have been forced to remain
there all winter. The city supplies tugs during the
winter months which cost the citizens of Toronto
thousands of dollars, to assist these unfortunates who
are unable to locate other housing.

All these facilities are being jeopardized by
the high water and erosion. Because of the use made
by so many people outside the city, it is unfair to ask
the city to pay the Miole cost of the seawalls. Our
estimated cost of adding 3 feet to the present walls for
added protection is about $80,000, and about 2 miles
of new seawalls would cost the city taxpayers more than
double that amount, totalling almost a quarter of a
million dollars for your friends' and my friends'
happiness and satisfaction.

To the east is the S-^. Lawrence wliich has been
talked about for a long time. I wish to congratulate
our Premier for his leadership in entering into the
present workable condition of the St. Lawrence Seaway
and Power Project. This stupendous work r equires many
hours of thought and action and I know I voiced the
congratulations of the people of the Province, and
especially this Assembly, for the farsight ed aid untiring
efforts of our hon. Premier, which will open up water-
ways for the whole of Canada and permit us to get the
ore from Alaska to Europe in a modern fashion and will

J-2

be a great saving to the people of the world. This

development of power for Canada is another wonderful

asset which must not be lost sight of during the

develo-oment of the seaway. I have wandered far away

from my beloved riding where I have lived almost 60

years. Let me return to my home groun-" again. If

we travel north in my district we come across Trinity

Park. In the centre is an old and revered building

which dates back many years as one of Canada's early

educational training centres. Trinity College has

served as the background and training centre for many

world-noted educational professors and great men of

learning, men who have made a great name for themselves

and are a great advertisement for the City of Toronto

and its educational centres.

As we go north, and still in Bracondale, we

come across Christie Street Hospital. During the

First and S.econd W/orld W ars thousands of boys found a

real haven and home as they were returned, many very

badly wounded in fighting to protect you and me. Under

the capable leadership of Colonel Sidney Lambert, an

amputatee of the first war, the boys of our army received

a wonderful reception and

(Page J- 3 follows)

J-3

real Christian treatment. It being in a central
location It was easily accessible to many of the boys'
relatives and friends, and very close to entertainment
of the very best kind, and religious services every
Sunday .

That building is still serving a most useful
purpose. At the present time 710 elderly people
are, you might say, living the life of Reilly in
their declining years. They are all so happy with
the kind of treatment they are receiving and the
entertainment brought in by outside organizations
every week, that many of them admit they are happier
now than they have been for a long time. Those who
wish to spend their time resting may do so in very
pleasant surroundings. Those who wish to window-shop,
which many of them have been so used to doing all
their lives, can do so by taking a very short walk.
Those who wish to travel to the centre of the city may
do so very easily, as a bus goes almost past their
front door every few minutes.

During the period the welfare have been In
charge, one wedding has taken place, and another
one is to take place this week. The. participants of
the first wedding party were both over 70 years of
age. The lady was entering the wedding field for the
third time but this was the gentleman's first
venture. They are both very happy. That makes
four couples who have taken up residence together
in Lambert Lodge. Another couple will be married
this week; in fact tomorrow, Wednesday the 19th.

lo 3.:
.3fi; "If.

ri.TPX 9f« \

J-4

They did not know each other previously but have Just
met since coming to Lambert. Both are over 70 years
of age. One couple stopped me on the street to tell
me how happy they are in Lambert . I and many others
hope and pray that the building will never be used
for any other purpose. They are all living in
happiness and I am afraid that if the older people
are moved out to the country, as many think they may
be, although they would naturally have more fresh
air, there is a big possibility of many of them dying
of loneliness, being too far from their friends to
visit them and being away from the environments they
have been used to all their lives. We all appreciate
the fact that as we become older we find it hard to
change our environment, our friends and our living
conditions .

Our Lambert Lodge Home for the Aged has a
waiting list of about 800 people, waiting to secure
residence in this Home. The only restriction is that
each one must be over the age of 65. No means test
is or has been necessary.

Down through the centre and eastern boundary
of Bracondale ran the old Garrison Creek crossing
Bloor Street from what was then Christie Pits, and
I used to swim in this Creek -- and, I may say,
sometimes in the nude. While sand was being removed
from these Pits, a skeleton of an elephant was
uncovered and removed, which is now in our Museum.
The Pits were 25 feet below street level. This

.•i 0,ijO

J-5

is now called Wlllowvale Park and Is retained as the
city's second largest park amphitheatres.

Now we travel a little farther to the north,
and still in my riding, we come to the Red Chevron,
a former Oddfellow's Hall which is now occupied by
about 200 men returned from the First World War.
They all appreciate what the Government is doing
for them there. The food and environments of all
these men is of the best and all are very happy,
many of them so crippled they have to be wheeled
around, and others will never be able to get out
of their beds again. This building is on Davenport
Road, a street which is far from straight and running
north and south in some places and east and west in
other spots. In fact, the story goes that this street
was once the border or shore line of Lake Ontario.
The one side is much higher than the other side,
which gives one every impression of an ordinary shore
line. The word "Toronto" means in the Indian
language, "A Meeting Place" and we all know that
Toronto and its environments was controlled by
different tribes of Indians who used to gather
together with their Chiefs for their Pow-wow in
Toronto, using as their route the street now
called Davenport, which at that time, when coming
from the west, according to my in.. ormation, was the
drled-up shore line. It runs from near Weston on
the Northwest to Yonge, Church and Bloor Streets
on the South East .

.iffiOr.i

J-6

Now that brings us to Bloor Street, which is
one of Toronto's highways. The traffic conditions
are definitely becoming worse every day for our
almost 700,000 people. If we can, and I know we
will, receive assistance from my Provincial friends,
we can to a great extent overcome some of our
difficulties. A super highway across the city will
relieve our streets considerably by allowing those
travelling possibly from centres as far as Quebec
on the East to Windsor on the West to simply pass
through the city, leaving the streets to be used to
a greater extent by those stopping locally. The
Humber Bridge relief is one of our "musts."

Mr. Speaker, I trust I haven't bored you with
a too lengthy description of one of our ridings,
because I believe there is so much of interest to us
all. I thank our patient and long-suffering
listeners, the hon. Premier, the Members of the
Opposition and my Party, who have listened so
patiently to my rambling remarks, and may our good
Lord, Who sees all and works for the benefit of all,
prolong the working ■ powers and life of our
conscientious Christian leader, the hon. Premier
(Mr. Frost) and may he be in at the development and
opening of the big undertaking - the St. Lawrence
seaway .

(Take "K" follows.)

K-1

HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker,
before moving the adjournment of the House, to show my
appreciation and respect for the hon. Leader of the
Opposition (Mr. Oliver), I am going to table, pursuant
to his motion, the answers to questions 16 and 17.

To-morrov;, Mr. Speaker, we will go ahead with
the Debate on the amendment to the amendment to the
Motion in reply to the Speech from the Throne. It has
been arranged so that the Debate may be concluded and
the vote taken before six o'clock to-morrov.- night. The
concluding speakers will be the hen. Attorney-General
(Mr. Porter) and the hon. Leader of the Opposition
(Mr. Oliver).

I m.ove the adjournment of the House.

Motion agreed to.

T.:e House adjourned at 6:05 p.m.

ONTARIO

of III?

f rnutnr^ of (§ntma

Toronto, Ontario, February 21, 1952, et seq.

Volume XX

Wednesday, March 19, 1952.

HON. (Rev.) M. C. DAVIES, . Speaker.

Chief Hansard Reporter
Parliament Buildings
Toronto

A-1

TWENTIETH DAY

PROCEEDINGS
of the

FIRST SESSION OF THE TWENTY-FOURTH LEGISLATURE, HELD
IN THE PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS, TORONTO, ONTARIO, ON
THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 21st, 1952, et seq.

Hon. (Rev.) M. C. DAVIES, Speaker,

Presiding,

Toronto, Ontario,
Wednesday, March 19, 1952.

The House having met. 3 o'clock p.m.

Prayers .

MR. SPEAKER: We are very pleased today to have
as visitors to the Assembly representatives of six
different schools from various parts of the Province,

pupils from Central and East Burlington Public
Schools, the Dunnville Public School, Humewood
Public School, Drury Public School in North York and
the Chatham Vocational School.

It is always a delight to all of us to welcome
the students of the schools of the Province to the
Assembly and we sincerely hope that their stay with us

A-2

will be one of pleasure and of profit.

While we have quite a number of pupils from the
Grade and High Schools of the Province here, I wonder if
I might take you today to school as hon. members of this
House. We are coming to the close of the debate on
the Speech from the Throne, and in view of the fact
that we have a very large number of new hon. members
in the Legislature, I think you will agree with me that
I have allowed what might be considered by some to be
a great deal of latitude in the matter of speeches.

I am not here as one in tremendous authority
nor trying to create a state of perfection, but there
are certain very simple rules of procedure which have
been developed in the history of parliaments through
the centuries and I, with all humility and diffidence,
would like to point out to the hon. members the very
simple method of conducting debates, and I bring it
now to your attention as we are coming to the close of
this most Important and very interesting debate which
We have had on the Speech from the Throne .

It has been a delight to me to have heard so many
of our newer hon. members enter into the debate and I
believe that all of us will agree that the contributions
have been very fine, regardless of their political impli-
cations.

In yi-Bw of the latitude allowed, I think it is
well that I might take the opportunity for just a few
moments this afternoon to point out two or three very
simple procedures, which we do have. They will all be

A-3

found in Lewis' very valuable, readable and interest-
ing book.

The first thing is the form of address. I know
that the hon. members are anxious to include everybody
in the House in presenting a speech, but may I draw
your attention to the fact that the only form of
address is, "Ivir. Speaker". We show the proper
deference to the Prime Minister and the Leader of the
Opposition and to the various members of the Cabinet
and so on, but fortunately or unfortunately, rightly
or wrongly, the only one the hon. members have the
right to so address is "¥iX, Speaker", so in the
preamble wanting to include everybody is just a little
bit irrelevant and just a little bit out of order. You
will find that in Rule 14 in Lewis.

Yve do not say "Ivir. Speaker, hon. Prime
Minister, hon. members of the Cabinet, hon. members
of the House and ladies and gentlemen." All of that
is "out". Just be satisfied to address the Speaker
and you should get along without any trouble.

Then, with reference to hon. members of the
House, we have had some very, very interesting
references in that hon. members of this House in the
past three or four weeks have been called by their
first names or by their last names, and up to the
present, I have let you "get away with it". The
correct form of reference is "the hon. member for
Wentworth" or the "hon. member for Beaches". You
cannot say the "hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville",

A-4

manner. Will you please be good enough to use the proper
form of address in referring to an hon. member, "the
hon. member for such-and-such a riding".

The same is true, of course, of "our Cabinet
Ministers -- "the hon. Minister of Plighways" or "the hon.
Minister of Labour" -- much as we may v/ant to make reference
to "Mr. Doucett" or "Mr. Daley". Please do not use this
against me because I am using these names, but v/e just
confine the reference to the portfolio a Minister holds.

It is customary that the speaker — I mean the
one addressing the House -- must be in his own place.
V/e have had no trouble alon^ that line this year, thank
goodness I Last year we had some speakers who were very
eloquent and they got a little overly enthusiastic and
used to wander up and down the aisle, V/e have not had
that this year. Thank you very much for that. You must
be in your place before you can address the Chair. If
you want to address the Chair, do not attempt to do so
from some other hon. member's place, because you will
not be recognized.

The same is true when we come to the vote this

afternoon, if there is a vote. You must be in your

place and once the bell has started to ring you are not

allowed to leave the Chamber and you cannot come into

the Chamber after the Whips have made their appearance

in the House, You must be in your own place in order to'
have a recorded vote.

iJTiS

9DnB-

0& la&io n.

A -5

I have also allowed a good deal of latitude
in the reading of speeches. That again is because
a great many of you have come onto the floor for the
first time, and I know from experience it is a very,
very nerve-wracking experience. It is generally
customary -- and indeed we encourage it — to have
speeches, well prepared butshould be as extamporeously
delivered as possible, I am not referring to the budget
speech which the hon. Treasurer (Mr. Frost) will bring
in tomorrow because I do not think any of us would
expect him to speak extamporeously on such a vital
and important matter.

I used to say, when I was trying to train
chaplains in the Air Force that it took a great deal more
time to prepare and deliver a sermon of seven minutes
than to write a thirty-five minute sermon and read
it, I wonder if the same might not be true
of some of us in our debates , and I wonder if we
could not get our speeches into shape where we could
speak from the heart and with sincerity.

We do want the House to retain the dignity
which is a great tradition of this Legislature, and to
follow the proper procedure and the rules to the very
best of our ability. I appeal to the hon. members to
be tolerant with me if I use the gavel once in a
while. I think I have only used it three times this
year. Tou are most fortunate in that respect. If occasion
arises and I do check hDn. members, it will be in a
spirit of kindness and with the very sincere effort

A-6

on mj'- part to assist all of us in the proper conduct
of the procedure of the House.

I am sorry to have taken so long In this very
simple explanation.

HON. G. H. DUNBAR (Minister of Municipal
Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I may safely say that they
cannct refer to me any longer as "old George".

MR. SPEAKER: I thought we were going to have
a debate between the Speaker and the Minister of
Municipal Affairs (Mr. Dunbar), but I might say I am
sure any reference to the hon. Minister in those terms
is one of endearment and affection.

Reading and receiving petitions.

Presenting reports by Committees.

Motions .

Introduction of Bills.

THE DOWER ACT

HON. D. PORTER (Attorney General) moves
first reading of a Bill intituled, "An Act to amend
the Dower Act".

He said: Mr. Speaker, this amendment Is
designed to broaden in some respects the type of case
in which an application might be made to a judge to
bar a dower. At the present time, for Instance, under
the Act as it is, where a wife has been living apart
from her husband, in such circumstances as will entitle
her to alimony, and where the wife is of unsound mind
and confined to hospital, an application might be made
to a Judge. It is proposed to extend the grounds

J

A-7

of such application in the following four ways:

1. In any case where the husband and wife
are living apart.

2. Where the wife has not lived in Ontario
since the marriage.

3. Where the whereabouts of the wife is
unknown .

k. Where the wife is of unsound mind and
confined as such in a hospital.

Those are the main features of this proposed
Bill and this will also be referred to the Legp.l Bills
Committee .

MR. A. CHARTRAND (Ottawa East): Will the hon .
Minister (Mr. Porter) answer a question? Will the hon.
Minister tell us how many provinces in Canada have done
away altogether with the Dower Act?

MR. PORTER: I believe they have in some of the
Western provinces. I have not here a list of all the
jurisdictions where they have done so and, of course,
there have been representations made for some years
to do away with dower entirely, but the Government
does not feel ' that would be a desirable move
at the present time under conditions of life in this
Province c We are proposing this amendment to make
it possible in certain cases for an application to a
judge where the husband may be put to an unfair dis-
advantage where it is quite impossible for him to
obtain a bar of dower by the wife, and if in the dis-
cussions in the Committee there may be some suggestions

i

A-8

for any further broadening in this respect, of
course, that will be considered and we can deal with
that in due course.

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill.

HOUSING DEVELOPMENT ACT

HON. V«f. GRIESINGER (Minister of Planning and
Development) moves first reading of a Bill Intituled,
"An Act to amend the Reusing Development Act".

He said: Mr. Speaker, the Bill which I have
just introduced, an Act to amend The Housing
Development Act, is the first part of our con-
tinuing attack upon the problem of housing. I
propose also to introduce two other Bills today,
one having to do, among other things, with urban
redevelopment and the other with the housing problem
in rural areas. My colleague, the Minister of
Public Works (Mr. Thomas) will introduce a Bill
having to do with the establishment of young
farmers .

I might say at this point that this state-
ment will include the other two Bills which will
be introduced in a few minutes.

(page 9 follows)

!,-■

A-9

There Is no doubt that the greatest single
factor that will accomplish the building of the
greatest number of houses in the shortest possible
time is private building. Therefore, every step
that can be taken to encourage private building will
lead to the shortest and soundest way towards the
ultimate solution of the housing shortage. This
was amply borne out by the steady increase of house
building in Ontario following the introduction of
your Government's second mortgage loan plan in 19^8.
Sc long as this plan continued, first under this
Government and later absorbed by the Federal Govern-
ment, but withdrawn in February 1951, the building
trades worked to the limit of their capacity, and the
number of houses built increased from year to year.

On or about that time, overall credit
limitations were imposed by the Federal Government
and these perhaps have been the main reason for
the subsequent sharp decline in commencing new housing.
Whether the policy of the Federal Government may or
may not be justifiable as applied to the whole field
of credit, its effect upon house building has been
serious. It is with this condition in view that
the Government now is providing for wider measures to
concentrate upon certain other aspects of the housing
problem -- to assist in some further ways the private
builder, as well as to encourage rental housing on
a wider scale.

There are many new principles and plans

■■'grr f "

i

A-10

Involved In this legislation and, as is customary, I
will .give a detailed account of the purposes of each
cf my three bills In moving second reading. However,
I believe a brief explanation would be helpful to the
House at this time and so, Mr. Speaker, with your
permission, this I will now give.

The fact is that all the bills which I have
mentioned, including the Bill for the establishment
of young farmers, are related. They are designed to
strengthen the position of the Province, its partner the
Dominion, and the municipalities in providing housing
over a wide field. In conjunction with existing
Provincial and Federal legislation, they constitute
a comprehensive and several -pronged attack on the
problems of providing sufficient and satisfactory
housing accommodation for our people.
Land Acquisition

Prom our experience under the provisions of
existing legislation and more particularly under the
partnership provisions of The Housing Development Act,
we have found that private builders are handicapped in
their building operations for lack of subdivided and
serviced land in the majority of municipalities in
which they operate, and we have been handicapped in
our efforts to repair the situation by reason of the
fact that the Department lacks the power to take
expropriation proceedings where it is necessary to
do so .

Accordingly one of the amendments in The Housing

:<'\\

A-11

Development Act is for the purpose of giving the
Department the necessary powers of expropriation,
having due regard to the rights of landowners.
2. Rental Projects

We have further found in our dealings with
municipalities in regard to rental housing projects
that many of them object to sharing capital costs and
possible operating losses even though their share has
been but Ts" pe^ cent of the whole. Other municipali-
ties have taken the position that full recovery rents,
which have been the basis of the present agreements,
are too high for many of the families in need of
rental accommodation. After consulting with our
Dominion partner we are prepared to meet both situa-
tions. The Province is prepared to relieve the
municipalities from participating in capital costs and
possible losses. The Dominion and the Province are
also prepared to relate rents to Income subject to a
rental floor which will limit any losses to be borne
by the two governments.

In return for these concessions we will ask
the municipalities to accept something less than, or
not in excess of the full taxes being offered to them
under present agreements. The Housing Development
Act is accordingly being amended to permit such
an arrangement.
3. Industrial Participation

We have also found that industry in many cases
is locating in rural and other small municipalities

•JO ,fiJsriJ ■

A-12

which are in no way geared to meet the housing
problem.

Amendments In the Housing Development Act
accordingly provide for Industrial participation
with the partners and xvlth municipalities in such
cases .
k. Urban Redevelopment

We have also found there is need for legis-
lation which will enable municipalities and particularly
the large municipalities, alone or in partnership with
private capital, to redevelop their deteriorated
areas from both a residential and industrial stand-
point.

Consequently, one of the amendments proposed
in The Planning Act will repair this deficiency.
5. Rural Mcrtgage Loans

We have also found that in operations under
the mortgage section of The National Housing Act
there has been an unwillingness on the part of
lending Institutions to participate with the Dominion
in financing new housing in rural villages and hamlets
and in other rural areas.

To remedy this I will beg leave in a few
moments to introduce The Rural Housing Assistance
Act under which there will be incorporated a Crown
Company under the name of The Rural Housing Finance
Corporation to make conventional or National H. using
Act first mortgage loans on residential property in
rural villages and hamlets and in other rural areas.

Hi £>n

ii':<

■■vi,t--ir.

:nnr}

JO A

r.iv

A-13

V/hat I have said will, I hope, demonstrate very
definitely that your Government intends to use every
means at its command to stimulate the construction
of hemes for private ownership at moderate prices
and upon terms which the average citizen can afford.
At the same time it will do everything that it can
to make rental housing available for families with
children who require rental housing accommodation.

Mr. Speaker, I am sure all hon. members of the
House will appreciate that the problem of Housing, as
I said at the outset, is a many-sided problem. There
is no one plan which will meet the situation in every
municipality. What suits one locality is not suited
to another. It will therefore be appreciated that
what we are under takin-j is a comprehensive attack
upon both the Housing and Community Planning problems
of our Ontario communities on a scale unmatched else-
where in Canada and indeed in most other jurisdictions.

Motion agreed to: first reading of the Bill.

(Take "B" follows)

B-1

IvIR. SPSAKSR: Introduction of Bills,
PLAKNING ACT

HON. W. GRIESINGER (Minister of Planning and
Development), moves first reading of a Bill intituled,
"An itct to Amend the Planning Act".

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill,
FINANCIAL ASSISTANC:^- IK THE BUILDING OF HOUSES

IN RURAL VILLAGES AND HAIvILETS

HON. W. GRIESINGER (Minister of Planning and
Development), moves first reading of a Bill intituled,
"An Act to provide Financial Assistance in the Building
of Houses in Rural "Villages and Hamlets and in other
Rural Areas".

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill.
ONT/iRIO JUNIOR FAPJvlER ESTABLISmJJENT LOAN CORPN.

HON. F. S. THOI/iAS (IJinister of Public Works),
moves first reading of a Bill intitued, "An Act to In-
corporate the Ontario Junior Farmer Establishment Loan
Corporation for the Purpose of Assisting Young Farmers".

He said: The Bill which I have just introduced
is, insofar as I am av;are , an entirely original Bill,
After an exhaustive search, both in Canada and in the
United States, I have been unable to find any juris-
diction which has legislation comparable to this Bill
entitled, "The Ontario Junior Farmer Establishment Loan
Corporation" for the purpose of establishing young

B-2

farmers.

The original idea for this Bill was first brought
into clear focus when a delegation from the Ontario Junior
Farmers and Junior Institutes appeared before the Select
Committee on Conservation in 1950,

In the Report of the Select Committee on Con-
servation, in Chapter 16, entitled"the Economics of
Conservation," Section 3 deals v/ith "Youth and the Land."
On pages 78 and 79 in the Conservation Report, a summary
of questions asked the Junior Farmers, together with their
replies, is very clearly set out. Before quoting from
this, I would like to make this observation and I know
other members of that Comrnittee, sitting in this House,
will entirely concur when I say that one of the most
interesting days we had was that day v;hen the Juniors
of Ontario placed before our Committee their views on
the agricultural industry of this Province. These young
people were asked by our Committee to make a survey taking
representative Counties,

In a brief presented by the Junior Farmers
Association of Ontario, it v/as recommended that the
Ontario Legislature look into the possibilities of
providing a similar type of assistance as the Veterans'
Land Act for young men who have proven experience on
Ontario farms and are seeking to purchase farms of their

B-3

own. As a follow-up to this recommendation, the Committee
suggested that the Junior Farmers Association conduct
a survey in different sections of the Province to
ascertain how m.any young men would take advantage of such
a scheme if one were set up, and to find out v;hat per-
centage of the total capital involved in starting farming
should be loaned to them. The survey vvas conducted
through Junior Farmers Clubs in the nine Counties of
Dundas, Lanark, Hastings, Simcoe, Bruce, Kent, Oxford,
Lincoln and Halton. The following is the summery of
this survey, in which 300 questionnaires v^rere submitted:

"1. Q,: Are you planning to operate a farm?
A: 92 per cent ansv/ered 'yes',

S. Q: If 'yes' do you have all needed funds?
A: 78 per cent, required additional capital,

3. Q: V./ould you use a financing plan, such as V.L.A.

if available to you?
A: 79 per cent, v/ere in favour of a financing
plan.

4. Q,: For the type of farm you plan to operate in

yqur district, what capital would you need
for (a) land and buildings, (b) livestock,
(c) machinery and equipment, and (d)
household goods?

A: This varied considerably by areas and the
local types of farming which prevail, but
for those who stated their requirements to
start farming, the averages were:

(a) Land and Buildings | 9,486.

B-4

(b) Livestock I 1,856.

(c) Machinery and Eguipment 2,428.

(d) Household Goods 655.

Total I 14,405.

(e) Average Capital Available • $ 4,692."

This involves a credit of approximately |10,000.
which is more than present lending agencies will advance
to establish young farmers.

This representative survej'', which I have just

quoted, clearly indicates the problem of young people

trying to establish themselves on farms in Ontario. This

Section on "Youth and the Land" concludes with the

following recoim.iendation and I quote:

"The Government of the Province of Ontario
should recognize the responsibility of providing
long term credit through some agency to meet the
problem of assisting young experienced farmers
to establish themselves on farms".

During the Sum/aer and Fall of 1951, the

Government of this Province took the above mentioned

recommendations under consideration, and in an address

given by the hon. Prime Minister at London, Ontario, on

November 6, 1951, the hon. Prime Minister stated, in

part, as follows:

"A Crown Corporation v/ill be established to
provide loans to those persons in agriculture
who desire to engage in farming as a full-
time occupation on their own farm. This
will be of particular assistance to farmers'

B-5

sons and other young people who, under present
conditions, find it financially difficult to
become established".

I would like to draw attention at this time to

the main features of this Bill. On second reading, all

hon. members of this House will have an opportunity of

discussing it q^uite fully, but at this time, on first

reading, I think it advisable to focus your attention

on the principal points in this Bill.

(D- This Bill provides for the setting up of

a Crov.Ti Corporation entitled, "The Ontario Junior Farmer

Establishment Loan Corporation." This Corporation shall

be composed of three members v/ho shall be its Board of

Directors, To carry out the objects of the Corporation

a sum of money, not exceeding, in the aggregate $10,000,000,

at any one time, shall be provided,

(2) - Out of monies at the disposal of the

Corporation, loans may be made for the following purposes:

(a) the acquisition of land for agricultural
purposes.

(b) the erection and improvement of farm houses
and farm buildings essential to production;

(c) to pay off charges existing against land at
the time of acq^uisition by the borrower under
a will or by descent;

(d) to pay off encumbrances;

(e) to consolidate outstanding liabilities

B-6

incurred for productive agricultural
purposes;

(f) for the purpose of providing drainage;

(g) to purchase live stock;

(h) for such other purposes relating to the

establishment, development and operation of
the applicant's farm as the Corporation
approves,

3 - Q,ualif ications of applicants for loans are,

as follows:

(a) that he is of the full age of twenty-one
years and not more than thirty-five years of

age ;

(b) that he has been resident in Ontario for at
least three years immediately preceding his
application;

(c) that he has had a minimum of three years'
experience in farming and has displayed the
ability and capacity necessary to operate a
farm ;

(d) that he is industrious and of good character;

(e) that he is actually farming, or intends to
farm, on a full-time basis on the land upon
the security of which the loan is applied
for.

4. The extent of the loan shall be up to

80% of the value of the security, as shown by a valuator's

report, but no loan shall exceed $15,000., and each loan

shall be secured by a first mortage upon the lands

farmed or to be farmed, by the borrower.

B-7

5 - Re-payment shall be, as follows:

(1) Except as herinafter provided, every loan
made under this Act shall be repayable in annual in-
stalments of principal and interest sufficient to dis-
charge the debt at the end of such period as may be
agreed upon, but no loan shall be made for more than
tv/enty-five years.

(2) The first three annual instalments of
principal and interest may be graduated so that the first
instalment .is less than the second, the second less than
the third and the third less than the subseq.uent instal-
ments, which shall be egual,

(3) Payments on account of the loan, in addition
to those provided for in the mortage or agreement, may
be made at any time,

A fev/ minutes ago, my colleague, the hon.
Minister of Planning and Development introduced a Bill
dealing with rural housing and, as a farmer, who has
been interested in this for many years, I just wish to
make an observation or tv;o regarding this Bill. I do
this more particularly for the hon. members of this
House who represent urban ridings and also, for the
bftnefit of the press, because I find, and it is quite
natural, that it should be so, that many urban people
do not appreciate the fact that rural areas have not

B-8

been receiving benefits under the National Housing Act.

I V70uld also like to point out that this Bill
on Housing will, over the years, go a long way tov/ards
solving the housing problem for farmers. Many people,
particularly urban people, may think while driving
through the country and occasionally seeing- vacant houses
on farms that there v/ould be no problem in rural housing.
The facts are, however, that there are problems pertain-
ing to housing in rural areas. May I give just one
simple illustration's

In some instances, the son en a farm wishes
to marry and take over the operation of the farm on which
there may be only housing accomi-.odotion for one family.
The father may desire to have a small cottage on the
corner of the farm, and vork with his son during the
busy season, or he may desire to retire to the nearest
local village or town. In some cases, of course, the
farmer, alon^ v;ith his son, may have sufficient capital
to carry out this programme, but in many cases, however,
this is not true, therefore, the Bill on rural housing
introduced by the hon. Minister of Planning and
Development (Mr. Griesinger) takes care of a situation
such as the one I have illustrated.

In conclusion, may I say that these two
Bills, the one on rural housing and the one which I

i ,'-■

■ '^i X ' J iJ O il

bae

B-9

have just introduced, are somewhat complementary and
this Government feels that when they become operative
they will make a very definite and distinct contribu-
tion to rural Ontario, which plays such a vital role
in the economic life of the Province of Ontario.

(Take "C" follows)

C-1

ft

MR. F. R. OLIVZIR (Leader of the Opposition):
I"r, Speaker, may I ask the Hon. llinistar (Mr. Thomas)
if he indicated what the interest rate would be on the
loan,

¥R. THOMAS (Minister of Public Works): It
is not stated in the Bill, but it will be the current
rate of interest.

HON. A. WELSH (Provincial Secretary) moves
first reading of Bill intituled, "An Act to Amend the
Legislative Assembly Act",

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill.

HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker,
in view of the fact that the Bill introduced by the Hon.
Provincial Secretary (Mr, Welsh) affects the position of
all hon. members of this House, I felt I should give an
explanation to the House concerning the subject-matter
of this Bill.

It is, of course, a matter of delicacy affcctiT*^
all hon. members of the House, and I may say, quite frankly
that I had some diffidence about dealing with this question
during the last three years.

My first acquaintanceship with the problem was
at the time I was leading the House in 1949, in the
absence of the then Prime Minister, now the Hon. Minister
of Agriculture (Mr. Kennedy). Subsequently, I dealt with

.r,

• *

1 " w ty

C-2

this matter in the House, To be frank — as I will

explain in a moment -- I have never felt the matter should

be dealt with until after a general election.

The subject-matter of this Bill has its

inception in a Select Committee of the House appointed

on the 4th of April, 1946, consisting of five then hon.

members of the House: -

T. K. Creighton (Ontario South) (PC)

T. A. Murphy (Beacher) (PC)

M. C. Davies (Windsor-Sandwich) (PC)

F. R. Oliver (South Grey) (Lib.)

W. J. Grummett (South Cochrane) (CCF)

This Committee reported on the]4'th of March,

1947.

This was followed by a Committee appointed by

this House on the 6th of April, 1950, composed of five

then hon, members of the House :-

William Murdoch (South Essex) (PC)

Bryan L, Cathcart (Lambton West) (PC)

Alexander A, MacLeod (Bellwoods) (LPP)

Karry A. Nixon (Brant) (Lib.)

Charles E. Rea (St. Patrick) (PC)

W. J. Grummett (South Cochrane) (CCF)

This Committee reported on the 5th of April,

1951.

■■->'■:

C-3

The reports of these Committees are set out
in the Votes and Proceedings. Upon the recommendation
of the first Committee certain action v;as taken by the
then Government. The recommendation in connection v;ith
indemnity to the hon. members of the Assembly wa^s not
followed. I was a member of that Go'/ernment, and I
thought it WP.S a mistake, not to have followed that
report. I think that v.d.ll be ar^ecd, IVe had cut out
part of the Committee's recommendation, and I am satis-
fied it was v.rithout ja'st if i cation.

The indemnity itself of -^2, .000. 00 was not
changed, but 4pl,000.00 -Gr-penses was granted to the
hon. members.

With this matter is associated the question of
Ministers' salaries. In 1930 the salaries of the hon.
members of the Executive Council v;ere set by Statute,
In the depression days the salaries of all Ministers
on consent were reduced by Hij2,000.00o At that tins
the indemnity of the hon. members of the Assembly v;as
reduced by ^^200. 00, v/hich amount Mas later restored.

The reduction in the hon. Ministers' salaries, hoive/er,
has been carried on to this day. It will be noted in
the estimates after the hon. minister's salary in each
case "Minister's salory Statutory -.^10,000.00.. volun-
tarily reduced cc ^1^9,000,00." In the case of the hon.

C-4

Prime Minister the Statutory salary is spl4,000.00, and
was voluntarily reduced to s)'ll>995.00. Why the extra five
dollars, I have never been able to understand;

These reductions have been carried on since the
depression days. In 1949, under the Premiership of the
now hon. Minister of Agriculture, it was decided that
the reductions should be terminated and that the salaries
should be put in at the rate called for in the Statute.
At that time it was pointed out in the House that the
report filed on the 14th of March, 1947, had never been
fully acted on. It was then decided that no change would
be made in the hon. Ministers' salaries, but that the
same would continue with the voluntary reduction, and
at that time I stated that no change would be made in
the hon. Ministers' salaries until after a General Elec-
tion.

I confess the diffidence I had in dealing with
this problem. As in the matter I am dealing with to-day,
I felt, and still feel, sensitive about the matter. I
felt that should not be done. In looking over the pre-
cedents, I followed the precedent of the then hon.
Prime Minister of Canada, the Rt. hon, Mr. King who
had been faced with the same situation in regard to the
Federal Government, as I thought that was the proper
thing to do.

C-5

On the 6th of April, 1950, oh e motion by
E. 3. Jolliffe (South York), Leader of the Opposition,
and seconded by F. R. Oliver (South Grey), Leader of
the Liberal Group, the second Select Committee above
referred to was appointed "To study and enquire into
the pajrment of indemnities and allowances to the
hon. members of the Legislative Assembly and the
mem':ers of the Executive Council, and all matters per-r
taining thereto".

As stated, this report was filed on the 5th

of April, 1951, and is shown in the Votes and Proceedings

The report follows:

"The Committee gave consideration to the
indemnities and allowances provided in other
Provinces of Canada and also to the report
of a Committee which reported on the same
matters on the 10th March, 1947. In this
connection, it may be pointed out that the
recommendations of the Committee of 1947
were not fully implemented by the legislation
which followed it.

After due deliberation, the Committee came
to the conclusion that the salary and expense
allowance at present paid to the Speaker of the
Assembly, to members of the Executive Council
and to members of the Legislature, are inade-
quate when considered in the light of the
following conditions :-

1. The expansion of Government services
and legislation affecting all Departments
now makes membership in the Legislature
practically a full-time occupation. The
gross ordinary expenditure of the Province
has more than doubled since 1936 and as a

C-6

result the duties of a Member have greatly
increased from year to year.

2. The increase in the work of Government
has made it necessary to lengthen the
sessions of the Legislature substantially
thus entailing a greater expense for the
Members.

3. The desirability of making it possible
for citizens to become candidates for
election, even though they may not possess
sufficient private means to enable them to
devote full time to their duties as Members
of the Legislature,

4. The mileage allowance to Members for
travelling from their homes to Toronto and
return for one trip only during the year
is quite inadequate in view of the number
of visits each Member must make to the seat
of Government during any year."

The Committee has considered the present salary
and allovjances paid to the Speaker of the
Assem.bly, which at present, consists of his
salary and expense allowance as a Member plus
an allowance of ,^2,500.00 per year. The
Comraittee is of the opinion that this allowance
is not sufficient to reimburse the Speaker for
the expenditures incurred by him in carrying
out the extensive duties of his office and
accordingly recommends that in addition to
his salary and expense allowance as a Member
of the Assembly, the Speaker be paid an
additional indemnity of ^3,000.00 per year
and an expense allowance of •,p2, 000.00 per
year, such payments to be exclusive of any
sum placed to his credit in the Estimates
for entertainment purposes.

The Committee recommends that the Members
of the Executive Council be requested to draw
the full salary authorized by Statute, rather
than the reduced amount presently drawn by
them.

C-7

The Committee further recommends: -

1. That there be paid to each Member of
the Assembly-
la) A salary of $2,600 per year,

(b) An allowance for expenses of $1,300
per year.

(c) A mileage allowance of ten cents
per mile for four trips each year,
based on the distance between his
home and Toronto.

The Committee recommends that this report
receive consideration at the beginning of the
1952 Session,

Y/illiam Murdoch, Chairman
Bryan L. Cathcart
Alexander A. KacLeod
Harry C. Nixon
Charles E. Rea.J?

Mr, W, J. Grummett -- I am referring to the
hon. member for Cochrane South, and I am referring to
the name of the member at that time, and I do not think
I am transgressing the point you raised, Mr. Speaker, a
moment ago.

Mr, Grummett, the then member of the House,
and who is now the hon. member for Cochrane South, did
not sign this report because he dissented from the
provision for postponing the considerations until 1952.
He felt it should be implemented at once, and on the
5th of April, 1951, so stated his position.

And I wish to give all due credit to the hon.

C-g

member for Cochrane South (Mr. Grummett) for' the point
he made at that time. He stated his position very
honourably and very fairly in this House, and being one
of those returned on the 22nd of November, I am sure
he will agree that his not signing the report was not
beeause he dissented from the report, but because he
dissented to the fact that it was not to be dealt with
until this Session,

Perhaps I may have had some influence on the
Committee in connection with the deferment of the date,
but, as I say, it was a matter which I felt should be
dealt with, with extraordinary care.

It will be noted that the Committee recommended
that this report should receive consideration at the
beginning of the 1952 Session. This matter has been given
thorough consideration by the Government. The course
adopted in 1949 and the proceedings and report of the
Select Committee were thoroughly debated in this House
and the statement that the hon. Ministers' salaries
would not be restored to the Statutory amount until
after a General Election has been widely commented upon
and, indeed, favourably commented upon in the Press. The
Government has given full consideration to the matter and
ha3 decided to recommend to the House that the report of
the Select Committee filed on the 5th of April, 1951,

C-9

should be implemented and accordingly an amendment to
the Legislative Assembly Act is being introduced for
that purpose. It is not necessary that any amendment
should be introduced to the Executive Council Act as
the amount vfhich it is proposed should be paid to the
Ministers is Statutory and the recommendation is
voluntary and the reduced amounts are being paid as a
result of a written direction from the hon. Prime Minister
and Treasurer, and supported by individual letters from
the hon. Ministers to the Provincial Auditor.

The report of the Select Committee of the 14th
of March, 1947, went very fully into the whole question
of indemnities, making comparisons with other juris-
dictions and giving other reasons. This report which
is contained in the Votes and Proceedings of the 14th
of March, 1947, should be read in conjunction with the
much shorter report which refers to this report, and
which is shown in the Votes and Proceedings of the 5th
of April, 1951.

This is a matter with which I found myself
somewhat diffident to deal. This applies to all of us.
I feel, however, that it has been handled with care.
All kinds of time has been taken. The fiollest of pub-
licity has been given, a General Election has intervened
since the last report v/as made. It was clearly indicated

C-10

that the report would be considered this Session, The
time arrives when the House has to deal with matters of
this sort, and I feel and I hope the House agrees that
the time has arrived when a decision should be made,
I think it can be done with dignity and respect and
after the public has had the opportunity of having all
the information available on the subject,

HON. T. L. KENNEDY (Minister of Agriculture)
moves first reading of Bill intituled, "An Act respecting
the Health of Livestock",

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill,

He said: This gives tl^e Department power to
inspect live and dressed beef in any part of the Province
of Ontario,

HON. T. L. KENNEDY (Minister of Agriculture)
moves first reading of Bill intituled, "An Act to Amend
the Milk Control Act".

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill,

MR. T. D. THOMAS (Ontario): Mr. Speaker, would
the hon. Minister care to make an explanation?

I'iR. KENNEDY: Mr. Speaker, the main object is
to set out the Board's power to describe what butter-fat
and solids should go into the milk, and what should not
go in, such as vitamin drinks and so on.

C-11

HON, M. PHILLIPS (Minister of Health) moves

«

first reading of Bill intituled, "An Act to Amend the
Sanitorium or Consiimptives Act".

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill.

He said: Mr, Speaker, there is only one
amendment proposed by this Bill, which relates to the
burial of indigent patients in sanitoria for consump-
tives,

A similar amendment will be brought in to
the Public Hospitals Act, It raises the fees paid to
the funeral director to a maximum of ^75.00. Secondly,
it provides the actual cost of opening and closing the
graves, and, thirdly, it makes provision for a fee of
ten dollars for religious services performed in connec-
tion with the burial,

HON, M, PHILLIPS (Minister of Health) moves
first reading of Bill intituled, "An Act to Amend the
Public Health Act".

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill,

He said: Mr, Speaker, this Act has four
principles. The first is the clarification of authority
to limit the application of regulations under the Act,
as to time and place.

Secondly, to increase memberships of Boards of
Health in cities of 100,000 or over. This really concerns

C-12

only four cities, Toronto, Ottawa, Windsor and Hamilton,

The third provides for the temporary appointment
of an Acting Medical Officer of Health by cities for a
limited period upon death of Medical Officer of Health,
pending the appointment of a permanent Medical Officer
of Health. Heretofore, if a l:edical Officer of Health
died, such as was the case a short time ago in Toronto,
the city had no authority to appoint an Acting Medical
Officer of Health, until the vacancy was filled.

Fourth, the repeal of Section 110 of the Act
relating to municipal financing of investigation costs
of sewage works and water works.

Section 110 is being extended and transferred
to the Municipal Act,

m. SPEAKER: Introduction of Bills.

It is customary, once a year, to have a group
photograph taken of the hon. members while sitting in
their places, and this seems to be the fortunate, or
unfortunate day. May I suggest that all hon. members
face the left-hand corner of the Chamber, as I am
facing it, and put on your best smiles, and the group
photograph will now be taken.

(Take "D" follows)

D-1

HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr.
Speaker, I would like to table answers to questions
49 and 53.

}m. SPZAI'OSR: Orders of the day.

CLERK OF THE HOUSE : Eleventh Order, resuming
the adjourned Debate on the amendment to the amendment
to the Motion for an address in reply to the Speech
by the Honourable the Lieutenant-Governor at the opening
of this Session.

MR. A. W. DOVi'NER (Duf f erin-Simcoe ) : Mr.
Speaker, first of all I v^ould like to offer my con-
gratulations to you on your election to the high office
of Speaker, for the second time. You can take it as
a great tribute to your affability, your fairness and
your impartiality. I would also like to congratulate
the Mover and the Seconder of the Speech from the Throne,
the hon. member for London (Mr. Robarts) and the hon.
member for V/ellington North (Mr. Root). I must con-
gratulate them on the very fine speeches they
delivered in the House.

It seems like overdoing things to take
part in this Debate. However, there are a few things
I would like to say. I believe that anyone represent-
ing a rural constituency, which is progressive, honest,
thriving, such as my constituency is, should have

^Al

^Ui! ,

D-2

something to say. In the first place, I think the
Speech from the Throne has great merit. It deals first
with the things that touch our heartstrings, with
referen^.e to His Late Majesty and to our nev/ Queen. It
deals secondly with particular things having to do with
the prosperity and welfare of the province of Ontamo.
Now, we will deal with those two things in order.

I could not possibly enter into this Debate
v/ithout making some reference to that great loss that
every one of us feel due to the death of our late
Sovereign. The late King was loved by everyone in the
Dominion of Canada and we have very vivid and happy
recollections of his visit to this House in 1939. During
this Session, we particularly mourn the loss of a great
King and a good man. His reign coincided with one of
the most troubled periods in all the history of the world,
a period of depression, war and distress and fear, and
yet, throughout all that period, he remained calm, stead-
fast, firm to his faith, his faith in freedom, and his
people. One has only to read the speeches he made on
Christmas Daysto get the clear idea of the ideals of this
great man. We can never forget, and we should never
forget, his great sense of duty, his great courage, his
example as a father, his kindness and concern for the
welfare of all his people. I shall always remember the

Mi.

Ba at"

'T^^^^Xl

Id ,f?s3,K^i;o-

ii'is'^no-

'i»d;!t9ii':»':

D-3

concluding words of a radio broadcast he made on the
24th of May, 1939, in the City of Winnipeg. He said:

"Life is a great adventure and every one of

you can be a pioneer, blazing by thought and
service, a trail to better things. Hold fast
to all that is just and of good report, in
the heritage that your Fathers have left you,
but strive also to improve and equalize that
heritage for all men and women in the years to
come. Remember too, that the key to all progress
lies in faith, hope and love."

Our late King did hold fast to all that is

just, good, and of good report. He epitomized these

great ideals during the whole of his life and so, for

us, a light has gone out, but his memory will remain as

roses in December, Our sympathy goes out to the Queen

Mother and to our new Queen, and all the Royal Family.

To the new Queen, we not only extend our

sympathy, we offer our loyalty and devotion. Though

young in years, Her Majesty is well qualified to follow

in the footsteps of her great Father, In speaking to

the Privy Council for the first time after the death

of her Father, King George VI, Her Majesty said:

"I shall always vvork as my Father did, I
shall work as he did throughout his reign, to
uphold constitutional government, to advance
the happiness and prosperity of my people,"

Mr. Speaker, there can be no greater or

better example and no greater pledge. Like her Father,

ad:j

D-4

Queen Elizabeth II has promised to hold fast to all
that is just and all that is of good report. We pray
her reign may be long, untroubled and glorious.

The second thing I would like to say this
afternoon is that something has been forgotten in this
House this Session. Me have forgotten to pay tribute
to one of our greatest Canadians. During the past year,
a former hon, member of this House and a former hon.
Minister of Education passed away. I refer, of course,
to the Rev. Canon H. J. Cody, who occupied a seat on
the Government Benchs during V/orld War I. I repeat
again. Dr. Cody was one of our great Canadians and one
of our great educationalists. He was not only Minister
of Education of the province, but he was at one time,
President of the University of Toronto and later.
Chancellor of the University of Toronto, He had a great
capacity for v/ork, as we all know, and a great ability
to create confidence. I think ive can very safely say
that he was one of the greatest men of our generation
and he left his mark for good on everything he touched,
V/e cannot forget his honesty, his kindness. Doctor Cody
was a great statesman, a great scholar and a great man.
He was a man v/ho loved the people, all the people, of
his community and a man who served them well. I am sure
Mrs. Cody receives the sympathy of all hon. members of

D-5

the House. I am sure we shall never forget the services
of men like the late Dr. Cody, a man who contributed
largely to the developr.ient of this country, through the
years that have gone.

Ivlr. Speaker, generally speaking, I am not
very much in favour of omnibus speeches. I believe that
if a man is speaking and wants to make a good speech,
as we all do, he should be imbued with one single idea
in which he is particularly and vitally interested.
A speech Should convey the impact of a single notion,
Hov/ever , the Debate in v/hich we are taking part is
chacterized by omnibus speeches and I know you will
pardon me if I make one to-day. I do not want
to say much about anything, but I want to say a little
about several things, things v/ith which the people of
my constituency are concerned.

Yesterday morning, I read a report in one of
the Toronto papers that foot and mouth disease had
broken out in my county and it came as a shock. I
think it came as a shock to everyone in this House.
Then, in the afternoon, the report was denied and the
paper said it was not the foot and mouth disease, but
some other disease. As you know, our County of Dufferin
has a reputation for producing beef and it v/ould be
disastrous if the disease were present. I would like to

D-6

say just a \vord or two about this disease. The out-
break in western Canada is the first on record in the
Dominion of Canada. Almost every other country in the
world has had an outbreak of this disease, but this is
the first in Canada. I think that is a tribute to the
vigilance of our veterinarians. The fact that we have
not had to deal with this disease has produced a spirit
of legarthy as far as finding a cure for the disease is
concerned. I believe every endorsement and every assist-
ance should be given to our research technicians so that
this dread disease may be stamped out. V/e should not
forget that our farmers, who are affected by this dread
disease, should be properly compensated for their losses.
I know that adequate compensation is provided for those
who have cattle or other livestock infected. V/e
should also take measures and bring pressure to bear,
pass resolutions and send them to Ottawa, and also
take measures to provide compensation to be paid to
farmers in the immediate areas which are quarantined.
These men also lose income as soon as their neighbouring
farms are affected, I am sure that all hon. members of
this House, particularly the rural hon. members, share
the anxiety v;ith me regarding this very serious'
disease. V/e all desire that every possible measure should
be taken by this Government and by the Ottawa Government

D-7

first to discover the source of Infection and, secondly,
to provide for the extermination of the disease,
particularly to protect our livestock industry from
impairment. I believe that stronger measures should
be taken to see that immigrants coming into this
country from areas where foot and mouth disease
prevails, to see that these immigrating men and women
are properly examined to see that the disease is not
brought in from foreign shores.

We now go back to my own riding. I am
always interested in my own riding because the people
of that riding elect me. I would like to offer my
congratulations to the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost)
on the resounding victory he won on the £2nd of
November last and to express the hope that he will win
many resounding victories in the years that lie ahead.
I say very humbly, that if the Government continues
to give the same sort of government it has given for
the last eight years, we need have no fear of meeting
the electors. I believe the Government will give the
same sort of leadership it has given,

I said a moment ago that we are all
interested in our own riding and I would like to ask for
a little more consideration for roads in Dufferin-
Simcoe. I know the hon. member for Grey South
(Mr, Oliver) has been

(Page D-8 follows.)

.. H + <

V-.3v/.,i.-l.y:' 3-f^'

D-8

there and seen the roads and thinks they are very good
roads, but we would like to have a few more improved
roads. Along with all hon. members of this House, I
regret exceedingly that the hon. Minister of Highways
(Mr. Doucett) is unable to be present at this Session.
I know I am expressing the hope of everyone when I say
I hope he will soon be restored to health and strength
and bo able to take his place with us. The hon.
Minister (Mr, Doucett) has done a fine job for Ontario,
our highways are improving year by year.. I think our
highways compare very favourably with highways anywhere
in the v/orld. I believe the four- lane highway, the
main artery of traffic, is necessary, but we must not
forget tbe two-lane highways running into smaller
sections of rural Ontario. In my section, the roads,
especially the road between Angus and Maple Valley,
highway No. 91, and highway No, 24, should be added
to the highway system,, I would like to remind the House
that in my riding we have that great military camp, called
Camp Borden. Every day from that camp come ttanks and
trucks of every sort and description and I am sure you
need not strain your imagination to see just what those
tanks and trucks do to our roads. In the rural
communities, during tbe winter seasons, the roads
are torn to pieces, I believe extra assistance should

>JOV 3'

fcluoria

D-9

be given to these townships surrounding the Camp,
because of the disabilities under which they work, I
believe representation should be made to Ottawa for
assistance in keeping up the roads in the immediate
area surrounding the Camp. Great assistance has been
given for municipal roads by this Government and I
believe greater assistance will be given.

There are two or three things I would like
to deal with, perhaps not having much to do with the
roads, but they do deal with the Higjiway Traffic Act.
Today, our highways are wider and our cars faster than
they have ever been before. While a great deal has been
done to cut down the appalling toll of accidents, a
great deal remains to be done. In the United States of
America, every state is seeking for some workable
means of cutting down the traffic accidents, and I
know that every hon. member in this House is interested
in the very same thing. The automobile is the modern
juggernaut of death. More people were killed on the
highways of this continent last year than were killed
in the front lines in Korea and I say that something
can and must be done to reduce this toll of misery
and destruction. No man would be allowed to run a
streetcar, a railway, or even operate a printing press
without proper training, but we allow

(Page D-10 follows.)

D-10

anyone to drive a car without any training whatever.
I humbly suggest there should be a five-year examination
period for all drivers. At the present moment, there
is no provision at all for an examination, v/e just take
the money, send them out to the highways and you know
the result.

(Take "E" follows)

E-1

Secondly, I would like to suggest that
every automobile should be roadworthy. It should be
roadworthy before it is taken out on the road. A
boat has to be seaworthy and a plane airworthy, but
what about a car? It should be roadworthy. There
should be a periodic examination of cars after a
certain age. Used cars sold by used car dealers
should be certified as roadworthy before they are sold
to the unsuspecting public.

There are two things that we can do and
those two things might cut down the toll of highway
accidents .

During the last election a great deal
was said about the gasoline tax rebate. The people
of the Province of Ontario decided that we were doing
a pretty good Job over here and they would let us
continue. You know, I think we can improve that
particular situation. There is a great deal of con-
cern among our farm population about this problem.
A great many people lose their rebate because they
do not happen to be on time. There have been all
sorts of suggestions. Some say: "Well, we can
colour the gas for the farmer" -- 'Do this and do
that". I think we can solve this problem very
easily. I would suggest that as long as bills are
presented within the calendar year the ".rebate be
paid, or to go beyond that, you could say: "No
matter when the bills are presented we will grant the
rebate." After all, the province has the money;

E-2

It has already received the tax. Why not send the
rebate back?

I think the farm members in the Legislature
realize the difficulty. The farmer, as a rule, pays
his bills not every month but usually in the fall.
The bill for six months, as far as gas is concerned, is re-
cieved in August and he does not pay for it until
October. Of course, if he sends it in then it is
too late. So, I would susgest whenever the bill comes
in asking for the rebate , the tax be refunded by
the Prcvince.

I would like to say a word to the hon.
Attorney General (Mr. Porter). I am not going to
speak about every cabinet Minister this afternoon.
During the past summer I was a member of the Committee
set up by this Legislature to inquire into the
administration of criminal Justice in the Province
of Ontario. The Committee came to an untimely end
because of the election, and I would like to pay
tribute to the members of that Committee -- the
Chairman of the Committee, the hon. Attorney General
(Mr. Porter), the hon. member for Niagara Palls (Mr.
Houck), the hon. member for South Cochrane (Mr.
Grummett), the hon. member for Lambton East (Mr.
Janes) and the hon. member for Glengarry (Mr.
Vllleneuve). Each man did his work conscientiously.

The Committee was brought into being,
because there were comments during the last Session
and a few aspersions made that things were not going
along as well as they ought in the Attorney General's

I

E-3

Department. Let me say that we sat for four or five
months and we found not a single thing wron^, that
the hon. Attorney General (Mr. Porter) and the Depart-
ment had nothing to hide and nothing to cover up. V/e
learned a lot of things about how the underworld acts
but there was not one thing that we could say was
wrong with the administration as far as the present
law is concerned in the Province of Ontario.

lie learned some things during the Committee's
sessions and I would like to humbly suggest that in
some way or another the things we learned should not
be forgotten, that some report should be brought in
from that Committee. I am not suggesting that we
go any further. I do not think we will find any more
than we heve already found, in the other Departments,
and I would like to congratulate -- even though I
am a member of the Committee, I would like to con-
gratulate the hon. Attorney General (Mr. Porter) and
the Government on their clean slate. They had nothing
to hide and nothing to cover up.

A.long this line, may I say that
law and order must be upheld in this Province and
respect for law and order should be taught in the
schools -- not only in the schools but in the homes
of all our people. There is no place in Ontario for
gangsters -- for gangsters such as the men who shot
down Detectives Tong and Perry, and I respectfully
suggest that the Criminal Code should be amended
making it a mandatory sentence of life imprisonment.

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E-4

If anyone Is found carrying a concealed weapon
whether it be a pistol, a Sten gun or a Bren gun.
Anyone carrying such weapons is a potential murderer
and you know it and I know it and no mercy should be
shown them.

Leaving the hon. Attorney General (Mr.
Porter) I would like to refer to the Department of
Health, and I would like to pay my tribute to the hon.
Minister of Health (Mr. Phillips) and the great job
he is doing in the Province of Ontario for the people
of the Province. ', We have an excellent
record in the field of health, our Department of
Health is alive to the needs of the people all over the
Province -- alive, very much alive, to the needs of the
people. It is paying more money and putting more
effort into the promotion of public health than ever
before .

Under a previous Government in 194l and 19^2
the health expenditures in this Province were about
$9 million. Last year about $40' million was spent;
in other words ^ our health services have quadrupled
in ten years, and despite population growth and the
rising cost of services our annual per capita expendi-
ture on health has risen in the last ten years from
less than $3 for every man, woman and child to over
$8 for every man, woman and child resident in the
Province cf Ontario.

The Department has raised the standard
of care and raised -- vastly increased and improved.

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E-5

the treatment to patients in the public hospitals in
the Province, especially a regular basis of grants
to public and general hospitals, increased main-
tenance grants to these same institutions, and provided
for special financial assistance to out-patient depart-
ments of hospitals. It has also provided for the
nursery care of babies.

T-hese are Just a few of the highlights
of the real down-to-earth approach to Ontario's health
problems by this Government of the Province,

Increased awareness of alcoholism as a public
health problem was made by the establishment of the
Alcoholic Research Foundation which is already
proving its worth. Ontario has the lowest T.B.
deathrate of any of the provinces and we can take
credit for that, due to the work and the effort of an
efficient Department of Health.

For the control of cancer in Ontario we have
two Government agencies, one a Commission for the
investigation of cancer remedies -- it investigates
and reports upon remedies which are claimed to have
value in the treatment of cancer -- and the second is
the Caneer Treatment Research Foundation which came
into being in 19^3- In 1951. $200,000 was given to
that Foundation. We have also provided $2 million
for a cancer radiotherapy centre in Toronto at
Wellesley Street Hospital.

Under the Foundation's guidance nine cancer

E-6

treatment centres are operating in Ontario, and I
want to say that, just as soon as personnel and equip-
ment become available, several centres will be opened up.

The object of the cancer control programme
is to find out just as early as possible the history
of the patient's disease and to encourage citizens to
avail themselves of the wonderful services provided for
the diagnosis and treatment of cancer. That is the
first thing, and then, the second thing is to continue
to discover newer and better means to detect and com-
bat this dread disease . There are as many as ten
thousand new cases of cancer each year and our citizens
must be trained and educated to make use of the ser-
vices that are provided -- not only that, but the
services must be expanded.

Under the present hon . Minister of Health
(Mr. Phillips) a great deal has been done along this
line. The hon. Minister has also done a great deal
as far as the mental health of our citizens is con-
cerned. He has been in nearly every mental hospital
In the Province of Ontario and has made many improve-
ments for the comfort of the patients in thoss hospitals,
and these changes have greatly added to the general
welfare and treatment of the patient.

Just think of some of the things he has done.
First, he has improved the clothing that was given to
the female patients. Instead of the old standard
dress, they now have dresses that vary as to colour.
There are coloured blankets^ more comfortable chairs

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E-7

and not only that, but he has provided for each female
patient to receive some sort of beauty treatment and
this treatment has helped a great deal. He Is now
In the midst of setting up physiotherapy units In
General Hospitals, which touches every riding in the
Province. He is setting up these units in General
Hospitals where patients can get early treatment and
diagnosis, not one thousand miles away, but in their
own local community. He has established wards in
many hospitals in order that disturbed patients need
not be kept in jails weeks and months awaiting the
verdict of the magistrate or awaiting the decisions of
the two doctors ,and then being transferred to mental
hospitals.

I think one of the most interesting
things of all is this, that our hon. Minister (Mr.
Phillips) hates the word or rather the stigma that
is attached to patients going to a mental institution.
There should be no more stigma attached to a patient
of that type than to a patient suffering from pneumonia
or cancer or tuberculosis.

And so, I commend the hon. Minister of Health
(Mr. Phillips) for the great work he is doing in the
Province of Ontario and may he long continue as
Minister tc carry on that great work.

I would also like to commend the Hydro
Electric Power Commission for its tremendous develop-
ment in rural Ontario during the past few years and
for its promise of more and more mileage in 1952.

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Though we owe a great debt of gratitude to the -dynamic
Chairman of the Hydro-Electric Power Commission,
we owe a debt of gratitude to the Vice-Chairman of the
Hydro Electric Power Commission who sits In this House.

Hydro has made greater strides In the last
five years than In all Its history and the members of
the Commission are the driving force behind it.

I know our friends across the House in Opposi-
tion talk about the great work they did in their day,
and in wartime. Do you know in 19^1 our County was
in darkness? Not only Dufferln Count:,- but Simcoe
County as well. In 19^1 only l6 per cent, of the farm
people in the County of Dufferln had the benefit of
hydro. In 1951 -- ten years later -- 69 per cent, of
the people had the benefits of hydro electric power
in our county. In the County of Simcoe 31 per cent,
had it in 19^1 under a Liberal administration and,
in 1951, 76 per cent, of the people living on the
farms had hydro electric power.

. Mr.. Speaker in the Chair.

There are still a lot of things we would like
to do. I would like to again plead -- I have been
pleading for this for years and years -- for equal
rates in every municipality in the Province of
Ontario so that industry can locate in the smaller
centres. At the present moment the large centres

E-9

have it all over the smaller centres when it comes to
attracting industry. So I would like to plead with
the Hydro Electric Power Commission to give us
equal rates throughout the length and breadth of
Ontario .

(Take "P" follows)

F-1

I would like to commend the Government for
its action in bringing in the Bill to provide for the
power development on the St, Lawrence. V/e need that
power, and need it badly for industrial development,
and with that power resource, there will be no limit
to our expansion.

This Government has shown it has bision. There
is an old statement, "V/here there is no vision, the people
perish", and we are indeed fortunate to have men of vision
managing the affiars of Old Ontario.

I would have liked to have said something
about welfare, but I will slip by that, as I want to
speak for a moment or two on education, I had a great
deal I could have said about labour, but as we have
two or three others who wish to speak in this debate,
and I know that most of us would not like to stay here
after six o'clock, I will, for the present, omit what
I have to say on labour.

As regards education: I would like to pay
my tribute to the Hon, Minister of Education (Mr,
Dunlop). I am sure our hearts were thrilled to the
limit when we heard of his appointment. He is a great
educationalist. He made his mark and established his
reputation long before he entered this House. I agree
with the principle enunciated by him at a meeting once

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F-2

long ago when he said he was in favour of getting "rid

of the frills", and getting back to the three E's in

education. I agree with that. We need to teach oxir

boys and girls how to live, and how to make a living,

and not to be sports only, although sports have their

place in any educational system. They teach our children

to play the game, but it is more important to teach them

how to live, and. how to make a living. The welfare of

our children is of prime concern to any Government, and

it has been the prime concern of this Government for the

last eight or nine years. Grants for the maintenance

and building of schools have risen from ,^14 million

dollars in 1943 to ^63 million dollars in 1951.

May I refer, Mr. Speaker, to the amendment

now before the House:

"Moved by the Hon. Leader of the Opposition
(Mr, Oliver), seconded by the hon. member
for Brant (Mr. Nixon) that the Government
has failed to provide adequate assistance
to meet the rising costs of education."

Have you forgotten 1940, 1941, 1942, and 1943,
when all you could give to the people of the municipalities
was a paltry '|pl4 million dollars? Compare that with the
$63 million dollars given by this Government in 1951.

This Government has also provided free school
books, transportation, given large grants for the erec-

F-3

tion of community centres, of which the youth and the
children are the chief beneficiaries. This Government
is the first Government to give substantial instruction
grants to the schools. The policy of the Government is,
and will continue to be, to achieve equality of oppor-
tunity for our children in basic education, and full
grants for transportation and for other purposes,
equality of opportunity, as far as education is concerned,
has been attained and maintained.

Mr, Speaker, we have a great record, I would
like to close by saying that I believe every hon. member
of this House, regardless of his political affiliations,
is interested in giving good Government, I know that
every hon. member — possibly barring one — is interested
in democracy; every hon. member believes in freedom ,
Mr. Speaker, a battle of ideas is going on in our world.
Not long ago a great Liberal statesman — and he is none
other than the Secretary of State in the Dominion Govern-
ment, the Chancellor of one of our Universities, said:

••"Communism can never be killed by bayonets.
It must be met with intellectual and
spiritual weapons and by removing the
conditions of poverty and misery in which
it grows . "

Then he went on to say:

"Freedom must include the obligation to be
socially useful, and to struggle against

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.F-4

evil and injustice. Only on that concept
of freedom can a full and secure society be
based."

Mr, Speaker, upon that concept, this Govern-
ment is built. We are trying to meet Communism with
spiritual and intellectual weapons, and are trying to
remove the conditions of poverty and misery on which
Communism grows, and as the months and years go by,
when the record is comxplete, I think it will show we
have been successful,

m, F. R. OLIVER (Leader of the Opposition):
Mr, Speaker, in speaking once again in the debate in
reply to the Speech from the Throne, I want, first of
all, to refer to the lesson you read to us this afternoon,
as to hov; to conduct ourselves in the Legislature, in
debating the questions which come before us. I think it
was particularly appropriate, and the timing was excellent,
coming, as it did, prior to the remarks of myself, and
the Hon, Attorney-General (Mr, Porter), You safeguarded
the House, I am sure, in making the suggestion at this
particular time,

I just want to say, however, J'r. Speaker, in
passing, that I do agree with your interpretation, and
what I gathered was your determination to stick rather
more closely to the Rules of Debate. I think we were

F-5

getting very far afield, in calling each individual
hon. member by his first name, or his last name, which-
ever seemed to catch the fancy of the speaker at the
time, and if that were allowed to continue, I think it
would have m-itigated against the dignity of the Legis-
lature and the quality of the Debates in the House itself.

I want to say, Mr. Speaker, that I am rather
surprised at the attitude of the Government on this
particular day of the Debate, Last Friday, and again
on Monday, the Hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) expressed
hope -- and when the Hon. Prime Minister hopes hard
enough, that hope could be realized, I imagine -- that
the Debate in Reply to the Speech from the Throne would
be concluded last night, with the exception of the
Leader of the Opposition, and the Hon, Minister who was
to respond for the Government. I was proceeding on
the assumption that that course of conduct would be
carried out, and that to-day there would be just the
two speeches, and we could try to focus our attention
on various matters which have been discussed in the
great many speeches we have heard during this Debate.

But on coming into the House to-day, we find
that the Government seized upon this opportunity to
introduce three or four of the most important measures

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F-6

which have come before the Legislature at its present
sittings, and the Hon. Ministers concerned seized their
opportunity of being rather expansive in their elucida-
tion of these particular Bills which they were introducing.
On top of that, we had to have our picture taken,
and beyond that again, we had to listen — and I enjoyed
listening — to the hon. member for Duff erin-Simcoe (Mr,
Downer).

I want to say to the Hon, Prime Minister that
I have no desire at all to be critical; I do not want to
express annoyance at this particular procedure, but I do
want to remind him that his political strategy in this
particular case has not passed unnoticed. We are quite
aware of the procedure,

HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker,
may I say to the Hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr,
Oliver) that I never considered such a thing.' I really
did not think it would require quite the length of
time in giving an explanation of the Bills. I was
anxious to introduce them to-day, because they really
fit into the Budgetary Statement which will be made
to-morrow. I can assure the Hon, Leader of the Opposi-
tion (Mr. Oliver) there was no strategic intent in what
took place. It was just one of those accidents of
procedure. Also, may I say, Mr, Speaker, that I regret

F-7

that we have taken up a little more time than was
anticipated, and I would ask the Hon. Leader of the
Opposition (Mr. Oliver) to take as much time as he
wants, and the Hon. Attorney-General (Mr, Porter) has
advised me he will be quite happy to shorten any remarks
he had planned on making, in order that the Hon. Leader
of the Opposition may have the fullest opportunity to
speak,

- MR. OLIVER: Having received the assurance of
the Hon, Prime Minister, who I am sure is sincere, I
will still remind him it started away back in the days
when Mr. Drew was the leader of the party in power,
Mr. Drew used to rise before the Orders of the Day,
when anything special was to come from the Opposition,
and speak for a couple of hours, and do precisely what
it looks like the Hon. Prime Minister was doing here
this afternoon,

I want to sum up, Mr, Speaker, if I may, some
of the things I have heard as I listened patiently --
perhaps very patiently -- during the long days when
the speakers on the Government side followed one after
the other in that "parade of praise" we have listened
to over the last niunber of days, I would say in the
debate, in my judgment, the speeches were at least

F-a

equal to the average we have enjoyed in past Legisla-
tures, and the speeches of the new hon. members were
such as to be commented upon. I do not want to particular-
ize, and say just whom I think made the best speech
amongst the new members, but let me put it this way,
that I did enjoy particularly the speech of the hon,
member for Kingston (Mr. Nickle) . It is too bad the
Hon, Attorney-General (Mr. Porter) had to leave when
the hon, member for Kingston was speaking,

im. PORTER: I was in the House all the time,
and I read it over since -- every word of it,

M. OLIVER: I think it should do some good,
because it was an admirable speech, and there were
in it some definite recommendations to the Government,
particularly having to do with the Department of the
Hon, Minister (Mr, Porter),

I listened as well to the speech by the hon,
member for Leeds (Mr, ]VIacodrum) , I enjoyed his remarks
very much, as I did also the speeches made by many of
the "rookie" hon, members from the Government side of
the House,

I think it is generally admitted that the
hon, member for Kenora (Mr, Wren) made one of the
best, if not the best, "rookie" speech in this Legis-
lature, I know from my association with him and my

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F-9

conversations with him; that as we enter into what I
consider the important part of the Session, that is,
the Budget coming down and the Estimates being
presented, and as we enter into discussions on the
various Departments of the Government, you are going
to hear, Mr. Speaker, not only the voice of the hon.
member for Kenora (Mr, Wren), but those of other hon,
members on this side of the House, because we want to
examine, not critically, but certainly exhaustively,
the Governmental Departments, as the Estimates are
tabled before the House.

As I listened carefully to this Debate for
quite a number of days, I noticed there was a particular
thread running through all the speeches, just like a
thread running through a garment. That particular
thread was, that each hon. member took it upon himself,
very religiously, to devote at least one-half of his
speech to praising the Hon, Prime Minister and the
mental giants who sit on the Cabinet benches.

MR, T. L. KENNEDY (Minister of Agriculture):
It was a good thing, was it not?

I'jR. OLIVER: I doubt that. I am going to make
what I think should be an acceptable suggestion as we
go into the Budget Debate. I think some hon. member

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F-10

on the Government side -- some private member -- be
designated by the Government of the day to rise in
his place and make one speech, in which he embodies
all possible congratulations to the Government, and
to the Cabinet, and then say that he is speaking for
the rest of the hon. members who are going to partici-
pate in the Debate,

If there has been repetition -- and there has
— it has b een on that one particular subject. It may
be, of course, that I am biased in that regard, but I
think, Mr. Speaker, that even the hon. Prime Minister,
as that avalanche of congratulations descended upon
him, must have thought he was the "Great W-hite Father"
himself. The Hon. Prime Minister, I agree, is an astute
politician, but I do not think he is very far apart from
the rest of us, and I do not think he would enjoy it himself,
to be sitting in a different pew, apart from the rest
of the hon, members of the Legislature, and finding
himself placed in a category far removed and far above
any of those v/ho sit in this Chamber, or who take
part in the deliberations of this House. I do not want
to be unduly critical in that regard, but it seems to me
that we overdid that angle, just a little bit. Repetition
is one thing, but a very large dose of repetition becomes

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F-11

nauseating, even to the Government sponsors, and I
think to the Hon. Prime Minister himself,

MR. KENNEDY: I rather liked it.

I'IR. OLIVSR: I am not surprised that the Hon.
Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Kennedy) liked it. Perhaps
some of the others here are more sensitive.

There was one other remark I would like to
make in introducing the matters I have to discuss,
and that has to do particularly with the hon, member
for St, David (Mr. Weaver) who expressed the thought
that it was pretty hard to be sitting on this side of
the House, and not being at home with the family on
the Government side.

I would like to say to the hon. member, and
to those who think with him, that our dilemma in that
respect is no greater than his, \'Je are just as sensi-
tive on this particular feature as the hon. member for
St, David (Mr. '.'/eaver).

The hon. member for Dovercourt (Mr, Kerr)
yesterday made what I thought was a somewhat unusual
statement. Looking across into the faces of friends
across the way, he was comforted and strengthened by
being able to look upon their faces, but he was upset
and regarded as enemies those upon whom he had to look
from the rear.

(Take "G" follows)

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G-1

I know quite well the rear view is not too good,
but I would say to my hon. friend (Mr. Kerr) -- and I
want to make a serious point out of this if I may, Mr.
Speaker — I doubt if anyone in this Legislature is an
enemy of mine on political grounds or any other grounds,
and I doubt very much if anyone in the House is an
enemy of the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) or of
hon. members of his Cabinet. V/e cannot be an enemy
of another in this Chamber if we stand for the State,
the"3,tate"in this instance meaning the Province of
Ontario. If we are workers in the vineyard of progress,
then we cannot be enemies one of the other. I
would go on to say, hov;ever, that sharp differences of
opinion may arise as to the proper method to pursue to
obtain a given end. We might be widely apart in our
views, but we are all one when it comes to the goal to
be achieved. We are all going in the one direction
and the difference lies in the method of approach and
in the attitude of mind on particular questions.

Let us always keep it on that plane, and let
our approach to public questions be always made in that
regard because after all is said and done all of us in
this House, whether we sit in Opposition or in Govern-
ment, are here to do what we can to advance the best
interests of this Province, and all the people who
live in it. Those who sit on Opposition benches
today are just as anxious to play that part to the
maximum as are those who sit upon the Government
benches. All of us have a part to play and none of

G-2

us are enemies of the other; all of us are striving
to achieve that end which in itself is a betterment
of conditions under which our people live and under
which they work.

I want now to say a word about another ten-
dency that I detected in the speeches delivered by
Government supporters . That tendency was to take
unto the Government of the day all the credit for the
things which in their opinion were good, and to place
upon the shoulders of the Government at Ottawa all
the blame for the things they considered to be bad.
I suggest to the House^ Mr. Speaker, that is an
unrealistic approach to the problem that confronts the
Province of Ontario. I believe Ottawa is to blame
for some things, naturally, even as I believe this
Government has its shortcomings on particular subjects,
but I do believe this, Mr. Speaker, and I say to you
that even though the Federal Government at Ottawa
has tremendous taxing powers, it also has tremendous
financial responsibilities. It has the obligation
incurred on behalf of all of us to pay for two world
wars and to prepare for another one, which we hope
will never come. In addition to that, Mr. Speaker,
I say to my hon . friends who belittle not only the
attitude but the accomplishments of the Federal
Administration at Ottawa, that in my Judgment and
opinion we have never had an Administration at Ottawa
which has done more for the people, the men and women
who live in villages and towns, v;ho work with their

G-3

hands, who live on farms, the everyday person, than
the Administration at Ottawa. I suggest to
you, Mr. Speaker, that they have accomplished with a
minimum of dislocation the greatest redistribution of
wealth this country has ever known. They have taken
wealth from those who had that wealth in abundance and
have distributed it to people who are less fortunate,
and by doing that have raised the standard of living
in this country by many degrees over the last number
of years .

I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that in great social
measures like the Family Allowance Bill, and the
universal Old Age Pension Bill, ' in themselves
have wrought great good in the Dominion of Canada and
have forged, in my opinion, another link in the chain, oi*
in the armour that will keep us from being over-run by
any '''ism" that we do not like and will not tolerate.

I agree with my hon . friend from Dufferin-
Slmcoe (Mr. Downer) in reading as he did a report
on the speech of the Hon. Lester pierson; I agree
as I did here a few days ago, that the way to cure
communism or to stamp it out is not wholly by the
bayonet, the sword, the gun and the aeroplane, but
by addressing ourselves to our particular social and
economic problems, and by attacking those problems with
such force and such sincerity that we will bring the
lives of men and women all over Canada to a higher
plane of thought and activity. Those are the things
that count , those are the things that are fundamental.

G-4

Another thing I noticed running through the
speeches of my hon . friends was this thread, and I
do not like it. There was the suggestion relating
to blaming everything on the Federal Administration;
it seemed to be set off spontaneously as if some
central agency had given them the word to"go"and
each hon. member took it upon himself to express the
opinion of the "line", so to speak. Each one of them
in their turn dutifully and carefully mentioned each
time they rose to speak that the question of housing
was a serious problem but its solution lay with
Ottawa; the question of unemployed employables was
a serious problem and that the solution lay with
Ottawa. I hope that was not a propaganda machine
that was being unloosed because I agree now, as I
agreed before in this House, that Ottawa has respon-
sibilities in regard to unemployed employables; I
agree they have responsibility in regard to housing,
but what I do not agree with is that the Federal
Government has full responsibility. In connection
v/ith '^inemployed employables"! want to touch on this,
and I want my hon. friend the Attorney General
(Mr. Pcrter) to say a word or two on it, if he will.

The Federal Government at Ottawa, this
Government says, should have complete control over
unemployed employables. The hon. Prime Minister (Mr.
Frost), in the opening part of this Debate, addressed
himself to that particular question and suggested that
inasmuch as the Province had agreed to take care of the

G-5

unemployed unemployables, it was the duty of the
Federal Administration to assume the responsibility
for the unemployed employables.

I say again to the House, Mr. Speaker, and I
want to expand on it, that the Government of the day
have nothing but their own determination to back up
that suggestion or that principle.

HON. MR. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker,
I would like to correct my hon. friend (Mr. Oliver).

MR. OLIVER: Yes, all right.

HON. MR. FROST (Prime Minister): My hon. friend
at one time was the Minister of Welfare of this Province.

MR. OLIVER: That is right.

HON. MR. FROST (Prime Minister): And when the
amendment to the Constitution was passed in 19^1> 3-nd the
legislation for unemployment insurance was introduced,
it was my hon. friend himself (Mr. Oliver), I believe,
who introduced legislation in this House that removed
relief for unemployed employables from the statute.
My hon. friend did that himself, so why does he want
any further proof?

MR. OLIVER: That may be true, Mr. Speaker.

HON. MR. FROST (Prime Minister): It is true.

MR. OLIVER: It may be quite true, but that
does not alter the argument I was making --

HON. MR. FROST (Prime Minister): Do you want
us to put it back in again?

MR. OLIVER: -- that my hon. friends opposite
say the Dominion Government should be responsible for

b

G-6

■unemployed employables. I say the Government of
Ontario has no agreement with the Federal Government
to back up that decision; it is an arbitrary decision
on the part of the provincial Administration, whether
It was made in your time or in my time, and until that
is removed and until there is an agreement with Ottawa
we cannot say: "Ottawa, this is your problem com-
pletely."

I want to bring up this further point, Mr.
Speaker, which has to do with the British North
America Act itself. I am getting on ticklish ground
when I talk about the British North America Act, but
I want my hon. friend the Attorney General (Mr. Porter)
to follow me and perhaps correct me if he thinks I am
wrong in this.

HON. DANA PORTER (Attorney General): I shall
have to revise your whole speech.

MR. OLIVER: May I suggest to the hon.
Attorney General (Mr. Pcrter) that there was neces-
sarily an amendment to the British North America Act
when unemployment insurance was brought in, and I
would suggest further to him that before the Dominion
can accept full responsibility for unemployed em-
ployables there must be further amendments to the
British North America Act.

MR. PORTER: I would say that was nonsense,
Mr. Speaker. That is just complete nonsense.

MR. OLIVER: Well-', my hon. friend says it is
"nonsense", i have some doubts about it myself. However,

G-7

I shall leave It at that until another day.

MR. PORTER: Did you have some doubts before?

MR. OLIVER: My hon. friend says there is no
need for a further amendment to the British Ncrth America
Act. I accept my hon. friend's assurance in that regard
but I want to say to the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost)
and to the hon. Attorney General (Mr. Porter) that this
problem of unemployed employables is one we cannot pass
over with a shrug. We savj in this morning's Press
the number of those people who are out of work has
Increased only slightly. We had thought that the
coming of spring and the approaching of the end of
March would relieve much of this trouble.

MR. PORTER: That is what the Federal Government
said.

MR. OLIVER: Yes. Well, I think it was gener-
ally accepted even by the hon. Minister that there
would be a decline in unemployed employables at the
end of this month. I do not think It is a fair thing
to say to the municipalities that they will have to
look after these unemployed employables; I believe
this Government has an obligation to work out with the
Federal Government some satisfactory solution to this
vexing problem. The man who has not enough to eat
and not enough to wear gets pretty v;ell worked up, he
gets generally exercised about the squabble between the
different levels of Government, as to who is going to
have to accept responsibility for his plight. I do
not think we should allow it to proceed- ^Je should go

G-8

right in and accept a share cf the responsibility and
insist that other jurisdictions do the same.

Hon. members who have spoken in the debate
referred to"conservation/' and I just want to touch
upon that subject for a moment. They said it was a
vital subject but that it rightly belonged to the
Federal Administration.

HON. MR. FROST (Prime Minister): Oh, no,
we did not say that, surely.

MR. OLIVER: May I say to my hon . friend that
there seems to be a clear line of demarcation between
the place your responsibility for conservation pro-
jects ends, and the Federal responsibility begins.

HON. MR. FROST (Prime Minister): May I say
to my hon. friend --

MR. OLIVER: No, I know what my hon. friend
is going to say.

HON. MR. FROST (Prime Minister): I do not
think there can be any clear line.

MR. OLIVER: I think there can.

HON. MR. FROST (Prime Minister): It has to
be a partnership. You cannot draw a line between
bugs that plague forests, and forests fires. There has
to be a partnership in these things, and there is
no clear line.

•MR. OLIVER: I think a solution to that
problem has pretty well been arrived at, Mr. Speaker.
I think great areas of reforestation, for instance,
are the responsibility of the Federal Administration,

G-9

but I think likewise that reforestation on a limited
scale within the Province is the task of the Provincial
Administration, and that building up the land of the
Province and the farms is the responsibility of the
Provincial Administration. However, there has
been a hesitancy on the part of this Government to
accept its full responsibility^ in this regard.

The question of housing comes up. I do not
want to touch at length upon that subject this after-
noon except to say that I think we all agree there
seems to have been a tendency to ease up a little on
restrictions on vital materials for housing.

(Take "H" follows)

H-1

We read in the Press the other day where

the United States expects one of the biggest building

booms they have had for many years. V/hether that

has anything to do with an event that takes place

in November, I am not clear at the moment,
but there seems to be an easing of the supply situation
in relation to those vital materials. I hope the Bills
introduced this afternoon will solve the problem of
housing from a provincial standpoint , I hope that they
are courageous enough to meet this problem head-on,
I daresay it is a provincial problem of greater
magnitude and one that touches the lives of the people
more closely and more intimately than the need for
housing in the province of Ontario. I believe, whether
the Government does or not, that this Government has a
real and an abiding responsibility to step ahead of
the Federal plan, to go it ourselves and to do this
Job that needs so badly to be done for the people of
the province of Ontario. I hope the Bills which are
coming up will help us to meet this problem in a
realistic way.

I v/ould like to talk about the hon. Minister
of Agriculture (Mr. Kennedy) for just a few moments.

H-2

He v/ill remember, of course, that back in November of
this past year, an event took place in which he vms a
participant. That event, of course, was a provincial
general election. V/hen that election was won, I think
the hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) v.dll agree v^rith me
that the farmers of Ontario were standing on top of
prosperity ridge, I doubt if ever in the history of
agriculture in this province, all phases of the great
basic industry were enjoying a greater measure of
prosperity than they were when the election was held
last November, I do not know v/hether the hon. Minister
(Mr. Kennedy) had any part, whether he was seeing ahead
as he sometimes does in these particular matters, or
whether he knew that the time to strike v/as in November
rather than in June, but if he did not know, then
certainly he was lucky, because you could not have found
the farm population in a more receptive mood, if you had
searched for a date over the last half-century , than you
did last November, You went before the farmers at that
time, bowing low and accepting Y\Aithout a murmur or
protest, the full share of credit being accorded you
as participants in this great prosperity that had come
upon the farmers of Ontario. Not once did you say
that the prosperity was due to agencies other than
yours , but you seemed slow to contradict the suggestion

H-3

that the Government of the province of Ontario with the
great measures of reform, so-called, which it has
introduced to benefit the farmers, was responsible
for the large measure of prosperity that they enjoyed.
Last Fall, as the hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) will
recall, all farm products were selling at good prices,
cattle got up close to ,4052f a pound, hogs were getting
up towards 40?? a pound. In the months that have passed,
something has happened and even as the Government
accepted the credit and the plaudits of the crowd for
the good times the farmers were enjoying, by the same
measuring stick, they must accept at least a measure
of responsibility for the difficulties that farmers
are experiencing at the present time. V/hat has the
Government done since the last election to offset this
drastic reduction in farm income? Not a thing until
these Bills v^reve introduced to-day, I suggest to the
hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) and to the hon. Minister
of Public Works (IJir. Thomas) and the hon. Minister of
Planning and Development (Mr. Griesinger) that they
know q.uite well these Bills which came in to-day,
do not strike at the fundamentals of agriculture.
In other words, you have to have money, you have to
have a good price for your products before you will
be anxious to farm. V^at has the Government done to

H-4

relieve this situation that presently has developed?
\7e are now selling hogs at some $26.00, less expensive.
That is a drop of about $13.00 a hundred pounds and I
would sa3'- to the House that on every hog a farmer finishes
to-day, he is losing |15,00, He just cannot escape it.
He is faced with that sitioatibn and it is a very
unfortunate one for Ontario farmers. Cattle have gone
dovm from about |40,00 to about $24.00 or $25.00 a hundred
pounds. What has the Government done to earn themselves
the right to say they are the spokesmen for the farmers
of this province? You say you got a mandate from
farm people in November last and I say to you that if
you tried to get a mandate next June, the same sort of
a mandate, you would be disappointed in the results
because you have not done anything to earn it. Let me
say to the hon. Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Kennedy)
and to the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) who is so
jumpy this afternoon, that all this Government has done
to relieve this distress in agricultural areas to-day,
is to assume a position of majestic immobility, just
sit there and do nothing about the problem, waiting
for time, and another jurisdiction, to work out the
answers to the difficulties. That is not good enough
for this Ontario Government. I remember one day, not
so many years ago, another Government met that .

H-5

particular problem, just such a crisis as this, and
they met it with very definite action. They introduced
subsidies on cheese and on hogs, on sugar-beets and
on wool, and they helped the farmers over the ridge.
I suggest to the hon. Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Kennedy)
unless he does something to tackle it in the very near
future, it will have him on the run. For instance,
what justifiable reason have you for not subsidizing
the freight on grain to Ontario farmers, at the present
time? Governments in the past, both your Government
and mine, have assisted the farmers in paying part of
the freight from the lakehead to the farms in the
province of Ontario and if ever there was a time that
should be done, that time is now. In western Canada,
they do not knov/ v/hat to do with the wheat, so it is
frozen and is only fit for feed, and down here we have
a need for it for feed, and we have a need for it at a
price that the farmer can afford to pay. Yet, this
Government sits inactive, they do nothing in that
particular regard and the price of feed remains high,
the price of the product remains low, and the farmer
"gets it" all around.

HON. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): May
I ask a question? \7ith his close connection with
Ottawa, may I ask the hon. Leader of the Opposition

H-6

(Mr. Olivei) what is being done in regard to New
Zealand butter and cheese? Does he know about those
things?

MR. OLIVER: I might have something t6 say-
on that some other day, I have not any note on it
to-day. There is a problem there, and the hon. Prime
Minister (Mr. Frost) knov;s the problem, and I appreciate
it as well as he does. However, it is not related to
what I am discussing here now. The hon. Prime Minister
(Mr. Frost) wants to relate it, in order to relieve
his mind. He wants to try to relate it, so as to get a
better feeling of composure in his ovm mind in regard
to this problem. I want to say to the hon. Minister
of Agriculture (Ilr. Kennedy) in regard to the subsidy
on hogs, the Dominion Government has something to do
with stabilizing the price of hogs at $26.00. I think
if it had not been stabilized, it would have gone down
to $20.00 during the current months.

I v/ant to speak particularly to the hon.
Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Kennedy) about the
advisability of reinstating a provincial bonus on
premium bacon. There are two or three arguments , one
night use in that connection. For years past we have
done a good job in Ontario in raising the quality of
our agricultural products, particularly the bacon

H-7

product. You can go into any restaurant in the United
States to-day and you will find Canadian bacon at a
premium over that v/hich is offered from United States
sources. I think that is something v/e have gained
over the years that we should preserve and the vay to
preserve it is to give the farmers some financial in-
centive to produce a quality product.

At the time the bonus was discontinued on
hogs, the hon. I-Iinister of Agriculture (Mr. Kennedy)
said that he would put something in its place of far
greater value. Not even with a microscope could you
find what he has put in the place of the hog subsidy.
At this time, when the bacon farmers are suffering qs
they have not suffered for years, I would suggest to
the hon. Minister (Mr. Kennedy) that he might well
reconsider the question of reinstating the bonus on
quality hogs. I am still asking what the Government
has done. Recently, I found out. I picked up this
circular, this propaganda sheet, called "Ontario
Government Services", and I found down in the bottom
corner, this interesting answer. It says a lot of
people in Ontario are overweight and that the Department
of Agriculture is going to do something about it. If
the people interested will write to the' Department,
it will tell them what foods to cut out, in order to

,.J!;

H-8

reduce weight. I suggest to the hon. Minister (Mr. '
Kennedy) in all seriousness, if that is the maximum
contribution that you can make to agricultural diffi-
culties in this province, then you are Indeed barren
of ideas.

(Take "I" follows)

I-l

It may come from the hon. Minister of Health
(Mr. Phillips) but surely not from the hon. Minister
of Agriculture (Mr. Kennedy). He is going to tell
the farmers, and going to tell the people generally,
to eat less bacon, to eat less beef and don't touch
that, while at the same time we have a surplus of
these particular products, that is increasing every day,

HON. MR. FROST (Prime Minister): May I send
over to my hon. friend "Your Pood and Your Figure",
published by the Department .

MR . OLIVER : I have already sent for my copy .
I will get it in a day or two. I want to say to
the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) that, he, even more
than I, could make a unique contribution to the
lessening of certain products, above that which
is actually required for the people of the Province
of Ontario, and he would be rendering a real service,
even if it were at the expense of an expanding waist
line . He would be rendering a real service by
eating more of these products that we have in such
an abundance here, and do tell your hon. Minister of
Agriculture (Mr. Kennedy) not to send the bulletin
out because I think it is Just directly opposite
to what the Department should be doing. They
should be trying to stimulate consumption of these
very products rather than restricting their on-
sumption.

I want to say seriously in completing this
point, I am glad my hon. friend is impressed, but I
just want to say this to complete what I was saying.

1-2

that I think it is something that we should consider
as we move into estimates.

I have for a long time -- and I think this
goes back to the days on the farm, although as far
as this is concerned I do not want to be political
on this particular question Just yet, although I
may in others -- we are now Increasing the expendi-
ture on agriculture from 19^3 to 1950 by some 35-9
per cent and we have increased the expenditure in
all Government departments by l6l.3 per cent.

HON. MR. FROST (Prime Minister): My hon.
friend knows there is education and all sorts of
things.

MR. OLIVER: Let me finish it. There is
some substance to it. I think the time has come
in this Province when, if we are going to do justice
to the industry of agriculture, then more of the
taxation dollar, more of the expenditure of the
Province, should be directed into channels which will
help the agricultural industry and the picture that
we have today is not one that should allow us to drift
into a position of lethargy^ nor allow us to stand
still and think that we have done a good job in that
particular field.

HON. MR. FROST (Prime Minister): Might I
point out to my hon. friend that the subsidies for
rural roads have been multiplied, I think, ten times.
My hon. friend used to give $3 million; we give $30
million. Does that help the farmer?

.: -iJiM

r-

ri^ •4-

■- -■ in.':-

1-3

MR. OLIVER: That indirectly helps the farmer,
yes. It IS not an expenditure through the Department
of Agriculture, and my hon. friend (Mr. Frost) knows
that .

I say again that the Estimates for the Depart-
ment of Agriculture as such, the Agricultural College
included^ should be Increased and increased drastically
if you are going to meet this problem as you should
meet it.

I want to speak for a few minutes on the
question of highways and I want to say at once that
I do not think I am being unfair in saying these things
when the hon. Minister of Highways (Mr. Doucett) is
not here. I would not want it assumed that I was, but
if some of these things I am going to say are a little
critical, some of them I hope will be constructive in
respect of the whole highway policy.

There is, I think, Mr. Speaker, a need now
for a drastic revision of highway policy. I want to
say to the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) — and
this is my opinion, but it may not be his -- that
regarding these great new highways which are '.now going
through our Province, these great four-lane roads,
people generally are beginning to feel that it is
Just a little unfair for such a large proportion
of their taxation dollar to be going into these very
expensive structures while maybe they will not be
on them more than once or twice a year, and perhaps
will never see them.

I-^

The time is fast approaching in highway
construction for serious consideration to be given
to some sort of plan for financing these great through
highways .

(Take "j'' follows)

k

J-1

There is a feeling, and I say to the hon. Prime
Minister (Mr. Frost) that It is a very real feeling,
that these great four-lane highways are being built
at the expense of needed roads in other parts of the
Province which cannot be built because of the tre-
mendous expenditure involved in the building of
these four- lane arteries. I suggest to the
Government very seriously that they should examine
that picture with a view to financing these roads in
a different manner, so that it will not Interfere
with the ordinary expansion of highways in other
parts of the Province.

HON. MR. FROST (Prime Minister): Has my
hon. friend such a road as that in mind? Barrie
highway J for Instance?

MR. OLIVER: Well, the new highway, for ■
instance, you are starting from VJindsor to Montreal.

HON. MR. FROST (Prime Minister): How about
Toronto to Barrie, the two-lane highway? Do you
want that to be a toll highway?

MP.. OLIVER: No, I did not say a toll high-
way. I was very careful about that, but I am not so
sure, I am frank to say, and my hon. friend
the Attorney General (Mr. Porter) need not get
itchy on this --

MR. PORTER: I am not itchy.

MR. OLIVER: I am frank in telling the House
that I am not so sure what the solution is, and I am
just as sure my hon. friend (Mr. Frost) does not know

J-2

What the solution is, but I am sure there Is a problem
there that must be tackled in the near future, and I
shall leave it there.

Further with respect to highways, I think
there must be a definite expansion of development
roads in old Ontario as well as in new Ontario, I
know of Instances, and so does every hon. member,
where a municipality has a very difficult piece of
road to build and to build that road according to
specifications in the way it should be built means
that municipality will not have any money to spend on
any of its other roads during that year. I su2;gest
to the Government it should be their policy, emanating
through the Highway Department, that a stated mileage
of development roads should be built every year in
the various townships of the Province of Ontario.
That is one way you would get a fair allocation of
the taxpayei''s dollar. That is one way to ensure
relief very definitely from financial difficulty of
the municipal taxpayers, and it is a way in which
you would give them much better roads because they
would not need to make such a terrific outlay on
a small piece of road, and could improve their
whole roadway system with the money they would other-
wise have to spend for that purpose,

HON. im. FROST (Prime Minister): I might
point out the development road was Just introduced
about four or five years ago and it has come into
very general application in all parts of the Province.

',t>.-

J-3

'MR. OLIVER: I think the hon. Prime Minister
(Mr. Frost) is a little enthusiastic when he says
"general application''. Its use is being steadily in-
creased --

HON. MR. FROST (Prime Minister): That is right.

MR. OLIVER: But not nearly enough to meet the
need which I think exists. I want to touch on
another matter which was referred to by my hon. friend
from Dufferin-Simcoe (M- . Downer) this afternoon. He
said that certain roads in his riding should be included
in the township roads system. I want to make a par-
ticular plea to the Government in this respect. I
asked, Mr. Speaker, a question on the Order Paper,
and the answer has been tabled, and you will find that
between 19^4 and 1951, forty-three miles of county
road have been absorbed into the provincial system,
and that in that same period of time, 107 miles have
been reverted to the counties. I do not knov/ whether
those are provincial roads or vjhat,

HON.. MR. FROST (Prime Minister): On the is
other side of the balance, though, are the develop-
ment roads which have been built in the meantime.

MR. OLIVER: My hon. friend will appreciate
that the development road is designed to meet a par-
ticular problem; it is not one which fits into the
whole highway system of the Province as it is con-
stituted, as between township, county and provincial
roads; it is to meet a difficult terrain or big
bridges that have to be built, or something of that
kind. I suggest to the Government in all seriousness

J-4

that a time of great trouble is at hand for the coun-
ties because they cannot get rid of some county roads in-
to the provincial system. That means the township
cannot get rid of roads into the counts system, and
there is a definite bottleneck that has been develop-
ing I suppose ever since the last war. Before very
long I think we have to meet that problem and initiate
a policy that will take into the provincial highway
system each year a stated mileage of county roads, so
that, in turn, the county can take from the municipalities
some of those roads that m they wish to pass on because
I believe unless that is done we are going to get into
great financial difficulties and I do not think even
the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) wants that, par-
ticularly if they have political application.

The question of snow plowing comes up and I
want to put this before the House as my own view. I
say tc the House, Mr. Speaker, that in my judgment
the Province should plow all roads in the Province of
Ontario during the winter season. At the present
time the Province plows the provincial roads and
pays 50 per cent of the cost of plowing the township
roads .

HON. MR. FROST (Prime Minister): Sometimes
higher than thatj sometimes 80 per cent.

MR. OLIVER: I ask my hon. friend: where is
the common justice in a policy that is erected on
discrimination, because there is nothing else this
can be called except "discrimination. " In certain

J-5

areas of the Province there is a very heavy snowfall,
and the costs of snow removal are consequently very
high and those particular areas have not very much
money left to spend on their winter roads. I do not
think any people anywhere should be penalized because
they are situated in a particular locality.

HON. MR. FROST (Prime Minister): Might I
point out to ny hon . friend that our method of meeting
that situation is better than my hon. friend's. We
at least pay big percentages and we plow those roads.
My hon. friend when he was in office virtually paid
no subsidies and did not plow the roads at all.

MR. OLIVER: ' Mr. Speaker, that is the
lamest excuse my hon. friend has offered this afternoon,
becauae he knows quite well that the snow plow was just
coming into being in those days; it was not the highly
developed agency it is today, not only here but in
other parts of Canada. My hon. friend wants to be
fair but in this case he is quite a way from being
fair. I say to him there is a valid argument as to
why the Province should plow all roads in winter time,
because if the roads are plowed the traffic that starts to
roll on those roads pays a tax to the Provincial
Government of 11 cents a gallon on gasoline, and it
seems to me, if a logical system were worked out, it
might be found over the course of time that it
actually pays the Department to do the job in a
scientific and systematic manner.

r, +

J-6

I want to touch on thlsproblem, Mr. Speaker,
and I think perhaps the hon. Prime Minister (Mr,
Frost) has thought of it before; I believe there is
an overlapping and a duplication of services as between
the Province, the county and the municipality that
could well be done away with. That overlapping occurs
in this way: we have in this present day and generation
very fine, up-to-date machines for the building of
roads and for their maintenance. Great progress has
been made in developing those machines. You have
the Province buying these machines, you have the county
buying them, you have the township buying them. I
have always thought, and I cannot get it out of my head,
that there should be a system worked out whereby a
lot of this overlapping could be done away with,
where there could be a concerted policy that would
relieve the municipalities to a considerable extent
in the buying of these new machines, and I think in
the long r'un, Mr. Speaker, much better work would be
done all round.

HON. MR. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker,
I may say that is done in machinery pools now.

MR. OLIVER: As between the county and the
province.

HON. MR. FROST (Prime Minister): Yes, and the
municipality.

MR. OLIVER: And the municipality as well?

HON. MR. FROST (Prime Minister): Yes.

J-7

The pool idea Is one, but I think that policy-
should be extended and I believe if the efforts of the
three levels of government Interested in road building
and in their maintenance were co-ordinated into a
system, it would really work out at much less expense
than the way we are doing it today. I offer these
suggestions to the Government in the belief that they
have some merit and in the belief too that the Govern-
ment will give some study to them and that something
may come out of them which will be beneficial to the
municipalities as a whole.

In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, — and I did not
intend talking so long -- I want to say a word about
a subject mentioned previously by the hon. member for
St. David (Mr. V/eaver), and it had to do with getting
industries out in the outlying areas. Hon. members
who have been here a long time know that I have always
had the idea you could build a much stronger Ontario
if you had the outside centres built up by the in-
clusion of industry within their borders. I am not
one who believes we should take industry already-
established, pick it up and set it down in some other
place in the Province, but I do believe that either
through the Department of Planning and Development
or some other Department, we could very well set up
a master plan under which industries could be encour-
aged to locate in certain areas where their situation
would make the maximum contribution to the economic
fabric of the Province.

Mr. Downer retires.

• (Take "K" follows. )

K-1

Mr, Speaker in the Chair.

MR. OLIVER: I think it is in England that
before you can establish an industry, you have to
obtain a permit, and in that permit you are pretty
well told where the industry is to be established.
That is good policy, whether it is in tine of war,
or in time of peace. In time of peace, when the
war clouds are not threatening, it seems to me that
if we look at this picture in a realistic way, we
will come to the conclusion that there is not much
sense in making the hub of our economic order stronger
still, if we do not straighten the spokes which support
that hub'. There should be a determination to build
up the outside areas of the Province of Ontario. The
City of Toronto -- in my opinion -- and I say this
quite frankly -- is quite large enough at the present
time. I think any further growth would be harmful to
the city of Toronto, and, indeed, harmful to the
Province. It is much easier in times of recession
to face the problems which arise in the smaller sec-
tions, than when congregated in the large city areas.
In times of war, it is not arguable that we should go
on and make the big, bigger still. Surely it is a
sound policy, from a defence point of view, if from

K-2

nothing else, to set these industries out into the
Province, where they would be safe from air attack,
but where they would be able to make the maximum
contributions to the life of the communities.

'Jhat is happening in this Province — and
all our members realize it — is that we have a great
metropolitan area along the lakeshore, and the rest
of the Province pays toll to those in that area. I
do not mean to be unkind in that reference; I mean
that only in its simple application. It is far better,
in my judgment, if we can -- and we can if we will —
develop a system whereby we can benefit all parts of
the Province of Ontario, particularly these great
northern areas. There is no reason why manufacturing
concerns cannot be situated iri Northern Ontario, and
be enabled to make that contribution to the develop-
ment of that great land.

We have done a little. I agree with the
hon. Prime Minister as to that, but there is much
more we can and should do, and I implore the Govern-
ment, not in the interests of any political party,
but in the interests of a continuing Ontario, that
they use every medium they possess to broaden our
economic base, and to bring security to manufacturing

K-3

concerns being situated outside the great metropolitan
areas.

Miay I say, Mr, Speaker, it is my intention,
and I hope the intention of those around me, to support
the amendment to the motion in reply to the Speech from
the Throne,

(Page K-4 follows)

K-4

HON. DANA PORTER { Attorney-Geners l) : Mr.
Speaker, I have listened wlth'pleasure and very great
Interest, as usual, to an address by the hon. Leader of
the Opposition (Mr, Oliver). He is as eloquent as
usual, Hov/ever, I notice it is his second speech in
the Debate on the motion in reply to the Speech from the
Throne, and it was of very great interest to me to note
that he hardly touched upon his amendment, in his
speech to-day,

MR. OLIVER: It speaks for itself.

MR. PORTER: So does the hon. Leader of the
Opposition. I v/as very much interested in many of the
points he brought out in the after-thoughts, which were
thrown in after the lengthy debate we have had.

One thing v/hich appealed to m.e and interested
me very much, being one of the urban members amongst this
great wilderness of farmers for so many j'-ears, although
I am now supported much more strongly by my own city,
was that we have not been subjected to some of the
criticism v/e formerly received, when I was one of the
fev/ stalv/arts representing portions of this city. I
think if the hon. members have listened closely as the
hon.nembers for the different Toronto ridings have made
their contributions to the Debate, they v/ill realize
that the representatives from the ridings in Toronto,

K-5

have been looking at the problems faced in this
legislature through provincial spectacles, and have not
attempted unduly to put f'orward some of the claims which
this great city might have made upon this Legislature.

There is one thinr I may say, Mr. Speaker,
and that is from my long association v;ith so riany of
the hon. members who have been closely connected with
the rural way of life, I have never yet heard a political
spokesman for a rural community admit that at any time
the farmers had reached the peak of their prosperity.
They have admitted the rural communities were prosperous,
but never that they had reached the peak of their
prosperity. The hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.
Oliver) admits to-day that the farmers, on November 22nd,
had reached the highest peak of prosperity ever reached
in the rural life of this community. V/hen I looked
over a certain newspaper, which was published in great
q_uantity prior to November 22nd, I noticed there was
one who styled himself as a "part-time farmer'/ one v/ho
claimed to be the o\/ner of an Ayreshire herd, made
many statements, but I never saw reported that he said
the farmers v/ere enjoying the greatest era of prosperity
they ever experienced. On the contrary, his picture
of the farmer was one of gloom and depression and
complaint. I do not know how the statement made to-day
by the hon. Leader of the Opposition gibes with the

K-6

statements v.re read in such voluble "magnificence" --
although perhaps that is the wrong word, although the
hon. Leader of the Opposition called us "majestic", so
I suppose I can be equally courteous -- to the effect
that there vms such gloom on the part of the farmers
v/hich he said was probably due to the policies of this
Government. It is refreshing to hear the hon. Leader
of the Opposition "come clean" and admit at least that
the condition of the farmers was never better than it
is to-day, which, of course, is due to the acts of
this Government during the past eight or nine years.
The hon. Leader of the Opposition seems to
think that the election on November 22nd was the result
of some strategic plan on the part of certain people on
this side of the House. But what about the "part-time
farmer" from Ontario County, who was calling elections
every day, every week, and every month for so long that
we finally got tired of it , and thought v/e might as
well let the people decide.

I do not know that there are a great many
things I need to say in reply to the very interesting
afterthoughts of the hon. Leader of the Opposition.
He raises the question of unemployment, and asked me to
say something about it. The position of this Government
and of its predecessor in office, as the hon. Leader

K-7

knows, and as was pointed out to him a few moments
ago, has always been that the ma,ior responsibility for
unemployment was Federal. That is a responsiblity which
has always been maintained. V'/hen the question arose a
few years ago concerning unemployment insurance, the
hon. Leader of the Opposition suggested that some
further amendment to the constitution might be necessary
to deal with that particular phase of unemplojnnent . That
was never necessary before, when the Federal Governments
in the past did make large contribution toward solving
the problem of unemployment. But what has changed it
to-day? The responsiblity was assumed then; why was it
not assumed before? There has been no change. The
position of this Government has ramained the same on
that point. There is no reason in the world v/hy the
matter should not be dealt with fully and fairly with
the Government which is primarily responsible.

But unemployment insurance is quite a different
problem from the problem regarding assistance to the
unemployed generally. The reason the constitution had
to be amended was that the unemployment insurance pro-
posal wao an insurance scheme. It relied upon con-
tributions by the employees, by the employers, and some
contributions by the Government, to provide for looking
after the workmen after they became unemployed, under
certain conditions, and for a certain length of time.

,^tl>l

iS f -.-.■^'r

K-g

A fund has been built up, and it has been held, in cases
v/hich have corae before the Privy Council, that the
subject matter of insurance is provincial, and, there-
fore, if the federal Government was to become involved
in a national insurance scheme to deal v/ith the un-
emplojonent situation, there must be an amendment to the
constitution to transfer that power within those limits
to Federal authority. That was done. It v/as simply
following the general view which has alvmys been held
in this country, that the Federal Government is
responsible for unemployment, that is, the main
responsibilitj'- is Federal, and always has b'Sen. But in
order to complete and round out the whole program, and
enable the Federal Government to do what they wished to
do, and what everybody wished them to do, and what they
were willing" to do, to supplement a program for the
assistance of the unemployed, a change in the constitution
v/as made necessary for the purpose of permitting: the
Federal Parliar:ent to set up an unemployment insurance
fund.

The hon. Leader of the Opposition has said a
gr at deal about v/hat he called "the parade of praise".
Personally, in reference to the "parade of praise", if
that is v^rhat it was, I thought was very moderate and
conservative in tone, but, as the Conservatives always
are, their statements were accurate in all respects.

K-9

In my opinion, it is far preferable to the hornets*
nest of abuses, to v;hich we were subjected for so many
years. V/e had a nest of hornets, but without very
much sting, it is true, but you had the feeling you
were in a hornets' nest, and that a great many un-
reasonable people were attacking the proceedinris of
this Government at every turn.

I was very much interested in what the
hon. Leader of the Opposition, in his last speech, did
not say. He did not tackle any of those problems which
were so important to him that he put them in his
amendment. He just rushed them off. He only dealt
v/ith certain things he never thought of mentioning in
his amendment. He is not suggesting the Government is
derelict in its duty. He did not suggest there should
be a tc ll-gate on the highv;ay; he does not mention
unemployment in the amendment, he did notsuggest any-
thing about the snowplowing of the roads. Apparently,
in the hon. Leader of the Opposition's mind, this is
just the last -moment window dressing, so he can say
that he made a gpeech about it, but he does not mention
anything to which he referred in his amendment; he does
not let them, get on the order paper, nor put himself on
record about these very important matters v^hich I have
dealt with as best I can. He does say something about
other things, and some of the matters have been mentioned

o..:

■t,\ ■■■■f-

• VSJB 'ft^'O

-:j-r :^ ?■'■-, • in--^

K-10

in more or less detail.

I would have liked to see in his amendment
some mention of conservation, V\fell do I remember the
days when I v/as in that nev; Department of Planning and
Development, and in this House we had a conservation
program, for which the hon. Leader of the Opposition
shov/ed no enthusiasm whatever — none whatever. I
reL.ember on one occasion he made a great speech —
perhaps even r re-ter than the one he made to-day --
attacking everything which had not been done. I
replied in a three and a half hour speech, and the
hon. Leader of the Op]:osition never said anything more
about it until to-day. I kept him quiet on that subject
until to-day. I want to remind the hon. Leader of
the Ox;position, who is now such an enthusiast of some-
thing which was just then beginning, something v/hich
had never been touched upon in the barren, sterile
years of the previous Government, that to-day we have
nineteen conservation Authorities. \7e have had a
Conservation Committee which brought in a very fine
report, and the hon. Leader of the Opposition seems to
think we never did anything about it. However, I will
not go into details about it, because there is too much
in it which has to do vdth the rural v/ay of life, and I
may say the v/rong thing. But let me say that of all

rl

nw

K-11

recororaendations made by the Conservation Committee,
forty-eight have been v/holly or partially implemented;
there are nineteen recommendations to which further
study is being given, and seventeen are being held in
abeyance. To suggest that does not show substantial
progress in a comparatively short time is just one of
those absurdities to be expected from the hon. Leader
of the Opposition as there really is not very much
criticism of substance to level at this Government,
because I believe that in the heart of the hon. Leader
of the Opposition, he does not think this Government has
done too badly in regard to these matters. I think,
in view of the fact that he hardly mentioned his
amendment, which sounded so formidable, that perhaps all
of -che things he was going to say about it, just
evaporated, and I thought that perhaps he was going to
withdraw this amendment. He should know there is really
no substance in the amendment, and he should realize
that he has failed completely to substantiate the
allegations he has made in such a bald, general and
non-specific fashion.

May I say, Mr. Speaker, that since these
Conservation Authorities have been set up, over one
million, nine hundred and forty-two thousand dollars
has been spent on the entire program. Is that nothing?

K-12

Is that a complete failure to implement the
recorrinendations of the Committee? Vv'e have in past
Sessions passed some legislation to implement the
recommendations of the Connuittee and we have accomplished
a very great deal in a very short space of time.

There is one thing I wish to mention which
is not dealt v;ith in the hon. Leader of the Opposition's
amendment. I assume everything which has been omitted
from the amendment must be something with which the
hon. Leader of the Opposition iscompletely satisfied
or he v:ould have put it in the amendment,

LIE. OLIVER: It v/ill be in future ones.

im. POSTER: \'7e will watch carefully to see
if you repeat any of these.

I was very much impressed with the address
by the hon. member for Kenora (Mr, V/ren) , in spite of
the fact that I have great faith in our own hon. member,
we do find that even from the Opposition benches, we
sometimes get a good speech. I think the hon. member
for Kenora made an excellent speech. I was interested
in what he said about the provincial police, and I
can assure the hon. member and this House that the
position of the Provincial Police is constantly under
review by my Department and this Government, May I
remind the hon. members that a year ago, the pay of the

K-13

Provincial Police, and also that during the course of
the year, within a very fev/ months after the prorogation
of the last Session of this Legislature, it v/as in-
creased again. I said at that time — and I repeat --
that the v/hole position of the Provincial Police Force
is constantly under reviev/, and we are endeavouring at
all times to maintain their position as it should
properly be, in view of the changed living conditions
of the times.

Another thing the hon. member for Kenora
(Mr. '7ren) mentioned was housing for the Provincial
Police. That is a very acute problem, in some places.
The Government has had that under consideration, and I
am lad to have the matter raised in this House and while
it v/as not entirely because of the suggestion made by
the hon, member, that I have referred to this subject
to-day, cbecQuse it is something which is constantly
before us and is one of the problems we have to face
as the times change.

In certain places housing is a very serious
matter for the Provincial Police, especially when they
and their families arbitrarily are moved from place to
place. The Government is prepared toapply the provisions
of the Housing Legislation to build, in places where it
is necessary, desirable houses for the Provincial Police

cue:

V,en«t iKi/iW

gnoialv'.

^1 A-:^

90liO'-T -IJSlOi'

K-14

to ease the situation in places v/here the housing
shortage is very acute and where they aresuffering
due to that reason. Some arrangement v/ill be worked
out to bring the rentals in line with v/hat they other-
wise would be paying. There is no reason in the world
why we should not adopt the legislation now before this
House with reference to houses for rent, and use some
of those houses for employees of this Government who
hold the positions of Provincial Policemen, and who
may have to move from place to place at a moment's
notice, from time to time. That is something \^e are
prepared to do, and something v/hich I have great
pie- sure in announcing at this time, especially in
view of the fact that the hon. member for Kenora (Mr.
iVren) raised it so effectively in the course of this
Debate .

Mr. Speaker, listening to this Debate from
the beginning, may I say I think there has been a
great improvement here as a result of the elimination
of many people, and also as a result of some new hon.
members coming in. However, that is something perhaps
that v/ould best be left unsaid. May I suggest to the
hon. Leader of the 0 position that before he discusses
with too great enthusiasm the high prosperity of the
famers, as it was on November 22nd, he consult with

K-15

\

person who presented such a different picture at that
time.

Mr. Speaker, I do not knov^r that there was ever
a time when the hon. members of this House can so
completely, and with such great satisfaction, endorse
in all respects, resolution for the adoption of the
motion for a reply to the. Speech from the Throne. The
Speech from the Throne forecast sound legislation, much
of which is already before us. It represents good
Government. The one thing which disturbs me and makes
me feel sorry is the embarrassment of the hon. Leader
of the Opposition (Mr. Oliver) in attempting to find
any real fault v;ith v/hat this Government has been doing.

Iffi. SPEAtZER: Mr. Robarts moves, seconded by

Mr. Root, that:

"l/7e , Her Majesty's most dutiful and loyal
subjects of the Legislative Assembly of the
Province of Ontario, now assembled, beg leave
to thank Your Honour for the gracious speech
Your Honour has addressed to us".

Mr. Oliver moves, seconded by Mr. Nixon,

that:

"That the Motion for an Address in reply to
the Speech of the Honourable the Lieutenant-
Governor no\7 before the House be amended by
adding thereto the following words :-

But this House regrets:

1. THAT no definite interim assistance is

K-16

being provided by the Governraent for the relief
of Municipalities pending the report of the
Provincial-Municipal Conidttee ;

2. TH(.T the government has failed to provide
adequate assistance to meet the rising costs
of Education in the Municipalities,

3. THi-T the government has failed to disclose
any plan to remedy the obvious defects in The
Labour Relations Act (1950),

4. THAT the government has failed to forecast
legislation v/hich v/ould implement the unanimous
recomi'.iendations of the Select Committee on
Conservation.

Mr, Grummett moves, seconded by Mr. Thomas

(Ontario) :

That the Araendment to the Motion for an At'.dress
in Reply to the Speech of the Honourable the
Lieutenant-Governor nov/ before the House be
amended by adding thereto the following:

"And this House further regrets that the
Government has fai led to supplement the
inadeq^uate pensions paid to the recipients
of Old Age Assistance, or to provide relief
for employable unemployed men and women and
their fam.illes who are at present in serious
need. "

The vote is on the amendment to the amend-

ment .

The amendment to the amendment was negatived
without divi'^ion.

The amendment to the Motion v^-as negatived on

division.

\

K-17

AYES 10
NAYS 76
The Motion was agreed to on division.
AYES 76
NA.YS 10

HON. liSSLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister); Mr.
Speaker, I move, seconded by Mr. Porter, that to-morrow
this House resolve itself into Committee of Supply,

Motion agreed to.

HON. LESLIE M, FROST (Prime Minister): Mr.
Speaker, I move, seconded by IVir. Porter, that to-morrow
this House resolve itself into Committee en V/ays and
Means.

Motion agreed to.

HON. LISLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister ) : Mr.
Speaker, I move the adjournment of the House.

Motion agreed to.

The House adjourned at 6;30 of the clock p.m.

ONTARIO

of 111?
of tlj?

Toronto, Ontario, February 21, 1952, et seq.

Volume XXI

Thursday, March 20, 1952.

HON. (Rev.) M. G. DAVIES, • Speaker.

^- (d. Sturgeon,

Chief Hansard Reporter

Parliament Buildings

Toronto

S E E 0 N D

ERRATA.

Toronto, Ontario.
Ilarch 20, 1952.

Vol. 20. Page A-3; last line: After the last \v'orci

on the page, please
insert, "because I am
not referred to in
that" .

A-1

TWENTY-FIRST

DAY

PROCEEDINGS

of the

FIRST SESSION OF THE TWENTY-FOURTH LEGISLATURE, HELD
IN THE PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS, TORONTO, ONTARIO, ON
THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 21st, 1952, et seq.

Hon. (Rev.) M. C. DAVIES, Speaker,

Presiding.

Toronto, Ontario,
Thursday, March 20, 1952.

3 o 'clock p.m

The House having met.
Prayers .

MR. SPEAKER: Presenting petitions.

Reading and receiving petitions.

Presenting reports of Committees.

MR. W. M. NICKLE (Kingston): Mr. Speaker, I
beg to present the Fourth Report of the Standing
Committee on Private Bills and move its adoption.

CLERK ASSISTANT: Mr. Nlckle from the Standing

Committee on Private Bills presents the following as

its Fourth Report :

Bill No. 23 - An Act respecting the Township
of Pelee.

A-2-

Your Committee begs to report the
following Bills with certain amendments :-

Bill No. 4 - An Act respecting Sarnia
Young Men's and Young
Women's Christian Association.

Bill No. 11 - An Act respecting the Synagogue
and Jewish Community Centre
of Ottawa.

Bill No. 22 - An Act respecting the Young
Men's Christian Association
of Belleville.

Bill No. 32 - An Act respecting the City
of Kingston.

Your Committee would recommend that the
fees less the penalties and the actual cost
of printing be remitted on Bill No. 4, An
Act respecting Sarnia Young Men's and Young
Women's Christian Association; Bill No. 11,
an Act respecting the Synagogue and Jewish
Community Centre of Ottawa; and on Bill No.
22, An Act respecting the Young Men's
Christian Association of Belleville.

All of which is respectfully submitted.

Motion agreed to .

MR. SPEAKER: Introduction of Bills.

Orders of the Day.

HON. G. A. WELSH (Secretary and Registrar):
Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present to the House
the Report of the Workmen's Compensation Board of
Ontario for the year 1951.

MR. SPEAKER: I would like again to welcome
the various schools represented in the East and West
Galleries -- the Lawrence Park Collegiate and the
Owen Sound Collegiate, the Orde Street School and
Saint Basil's School, and I would say we are very,
very happy today to have had the students of these
various schools present with us in our sitting of
the Legislature.

'n'i^i ban

i>n£> iv'jori'jc.-

' i? J V

A-3

Orders of the Day.

HON. M. PHILLIPS (Minister of Health): Mr.
Speaker, just before the Orders of the Day I would
like to extend a welcome to all the children here
and especially those from the Owen Sound Collegiate
and I want to congratulate Mr. Little, in charge, for
bringing these children here, because I feel that it
is a great education for them. I certainly want to
extend a warm welcome to them all.

MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day.

HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr.
Speaker I beg to table Answers to Questions 10, l8,
39, ^1, 56, 62 and 64. We have done pretty well.

MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day.

HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr.
Speaker, I have two messages from The Honourable the
Lieutenant-Governor, signed by his own hand,

MR. SPEAKER:

"The Lieutenant-Governor transmits
Estimatesof certain sums required for
the services of the Province for the
year ending 31st of March, 1953, and
recommends them to the Legislative
Assembly.

''Signed, Toronto, March 20th, 1952."

"The Lieutenant-Governor transmits
Supplementary Estimates of certain sums
required for the services of the Province
for the year ending March 31st, 1952, and
recommends the to the Legislative
Assembly.

"Signed, Toronto, March 20th, 1952.''

A-4

'HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): -Mr.
Speaker, I move that the House resolve xtself into
a Committee cf Supply.

Motion agreed to.

House in Committee of Supply.

Mr. Speaker in the Chair.

BUDGET FOLLOWS

BUDGET SPEECH OF

THE HONOURABLE LESLIE M. FEOST

TREASUEEE OF THE PEOVINCE OF ONTAEIO

TO BE MADE IN THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

THUESDAY, 20TH MAECH, 1952.

PRESS EELEASES

To all Newspapers
and Eadios - 1:30 p.m.

BUDGET ADDRESS

Delivered By

HOKOUmBLE LESLIE M. FROST
Treasurer of the Province of Ontario

in the

LEGISIATIVE ASSHffiLY OF ONTARIO
THURSDAY, MARCH 20TH, 1952

HONOURABLE LESLIE M. FROST (Treasurer of Ontario) noved:

That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve
itself into the Committee of Supply.

He said: Mr. Speaker, on this, my tenth occasion of making the
traditional motion on the Budget presentation, it is opportune to review
present economic conditions in Ontario and the application of our "basic
policy on surplus and debt that I first enimciated in 1944. This policy
has heen approved by the people in the general elections of 19i^5, 1948
and 1951, and we have not deviated from it.

Against the background of outstanding developments in Canada
as a whole, the economic growth of Ontario has been impressive. Expansion
has been very marked in mining, forestry, construction, hydro -electric
power and in the chemical and heavy manufacturing industries. The continued
high level of capital investment and employment affords ample testimony
that confidence in the basic soundness of the Province is undinj.nished.

Consumer retail sales at the beginning of 1951 reflected the
inflationary boom of which they were an important part. The anticipation
of impending Federal credit restrictions and higher excise taxes led to
intensified production and sales of commodities -vdiich it was correctly
assumed would become subject to heavier restrictions and taxes. A sharp
reaction from this feverish buying was inevitable. Part of the sales
occurring In the first three months of I951 were in effect borrowed from
the later months. But the readjustment, with its resultant effect on
employment, has gone further than most expected. In consequence. Federal
credit restrictions have been relaxed, and additional steps will no doubt

O-J s. js i

;iai.,3S '

X1£>i.-

Ul 8

-2-

"be taken to meet the sitxxation.

Not all the slackening In consumer spending and retail sales can
be attributed to the ant 1- Inflationary program. Some international prices
were beginning to fall; foreign competition ■was being increasingly felt in
domestic textiles and other industrial fields. The postwar backlog of
consumer wants vas vanishing, and temporary saturation points vere being
approached at prevailing prices in some lines.

In spite of some adverse developments, the past year has been one
of extraordinary growth and progress. Ontario's provincial product in 1951
increased by about 17 per cent in value and 6 per cent in voltune to a total
of $8.7 billion. Personal income in Ontario rose by $1.0 billioni labour
income by approximately $600 million; farm cash income was 17 per cent, or
$ll6 million, more than in 1950.

Private and public investment in Ontario, one of the outstanding
characteristics of our postwar economy, rose in 1951 to $1 3A "billion, an
increase of 22 per cent over the previous year. As in past years, approximate-
ly 21 cents out of every dollar spent in Ontario was devoted to the expansion
of industrial plant, machinery and equipment, ho\ising and other capital assets.
There is no better evidence of the vigour of Ontcurio's industry and faith in
the future of the Province than this investment in the capital assets of the
Province -- $7.7 billion since 19l<-4. This Province has done very well indeed.

Export trade, another of the dynamic forces in the econony, rose to
a new high level, both in value and volume terms. Ontario's primary and
secondary industries, which contribute substantially to this export trade, were
in almost all lines operating under forced draft, Canadian domestic exports
in 1951 totalled nearly $k.O billion, an increase of 26 per cent in value and
9 per cent in terms of physical volume over 1950. Consumption of electrical
energy in Ontario showed an increase of I6 per cent over consun5)tion in the
same period a year ago .

In terms of population, Ontario's natural increase (births less
deaths) -totalled over 71,000 last year. As in the case of births, the rate
of natural increase approximated the highest level this Province has
experienced in the last fifty years. As to Immigration, last year 5^ por cent

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of all those coming to Canada gave Ontario as their destination. Our
gross population gain was over 176,000 and after allowing for emigration
from Ontario, the net increase was probably about l60,000, exceeding the
largest previous yearly increase by 4^5,000. Ontario's present population
is nearly h SA million.

Influenced by recruitment from the flow of immigration and from
bur own native born who in the year reached working age, the volimie of
employment attained a record high level in 1951. By August, the number of
Ontario men and women with jobs had risen to nearly 1,900,000, an Increase
of 58,000 in the year.

Despite tighter credit conditions, the dropping of the l/6th
provision on N.H.A. loans (partially restored in October) and higher interest
rates, the number of completions of new residential dwelling units in Ontario
in 1951 was the highest in the history of the Province. The position of
Ontario in this respect is unique, for it is the only pxovince to show an
increase in housing completions over those of a year ago. The number of
starts and houses under const-ruction ie, however, lower than a year ago,
and unless conditions change drastically a drop in completions in 1952 is
unavoidable. Both starts and houses un/ier construction were also lower in
all the other provinces.

The story in Ontario is one of development in every field. In
agriculture, preliminary estimates place the gross value of Ontario's
agriculture output in 1951 at over $1^ 1 illion, about 15 per cent greater
than in 1950. Increased returns from the sale of livestock and field crops
were largely responsible for the higher dollar value. In the main, this
increase was the result more of higher prices than of greater output from
Ontario farms. But, by end large, the industry achieved a slightly larger
output with a smaller labour force. The decline in the farm labour force
was offset by increased mechanization end by the extension of rural power.

In forestry, Ontario's gross value of production is estimated
to have Increased about 20 per cent in 1951. Higher outputs were realized
by sawmill and pulp and paper industries. The output in pulp and paper was
substantially higher. Export figures showed a marked increase.

In mining, the increase was over 19 per cent. The .output of
Ontario mines reached an aJ.1 time high of $437 million. During the past
year, iron ore development has "been fxirther advanced, providing a foretaste
of the great future for iron production in this Province. Nickel was the
leading mineral produced in Ontario and it ranked second in all Canada,
replacing copper. Gold production, beset by operating difficulties and
the loss of the exchange premium, declined slightly, but it was still the
leading mineral in Cajiada and occupied second place in Ontario.

In manufacturing, activities in the Province are yearly assuming
new importance. Manufactures now provide employment for 52 per cent of all
the working men and women in Ontario industry who are on salaries or wages.
The gross value of manufacturing production in Ontario in 1951 'was estimated
to have been over 20 per cent higher than the previous year.

The capacity of Ontario industry to produce is rising. This means
that we are to an increasing extent enjoying the fruits of our past capital
Investment in the expaJision and modernization of our industrial plant and
machinery, Ontario is providing not only a healthy environment for the
expansion of established industries but a strong attraction for new industries.
Hundreds of projects, large and small, have been located throughout Ontario,
and will have importajit consequences for the industrial growth of this Province,
Jfemy of these developments are taking place in the smaller communities, and
we cannot doubt that this movement is in the general economic and social
interests of the people. The number of manufacturing establishments in
Ontario is increasing by several hundred annually, but a large part of the
increase in capacity is taking the form of expansion by established plants.

CHANGES IN THE M3NEY MABKET
Federal fiscal measures designed to control inflation were re-
inforced by several monetary steps to tighten up credit and investment money.
At first, this action was on a modest scale and made little inpresslon. On
September 30, 1950, the Government abandoned its official buying and selling
rates for the Cstnadian dollar. Two weeks later, on October 17, 1950, the
Bank of Canada moved to control credit expansion by raising the bank rate
from 1^ per cent to 2 per cent. Although the direct effect of this action

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was almost negligitle, the raising of the "baTik rate was a clear signal
that the cheap money philosophy had for the time being ended. Since the
creation of the Bank of Canada in 193 , there had "been only one previous
adjustment in the bank rate. Tixat occurred in 19^^, "v^ien the rate vae
reduced from 2^ per cent to 1^ per cent.

The attack on inflation by monetary measures -was the first major
reversal in the policy of the Bank of Canada since its inception seventeen
years ago . Through eleven years of war and postwar reconversion an easy
money policy had reigned; and it is one of the reicarkable features of this
■vrtiole period that, despite the financing of heavy public and private war and
capital expenditures, interest rates on. high grade bunds tended to move
downwards. But for a year an.d n half now the prices of Canadian bonds have
been declining and interest ratec rising. The Dominion of Canada perpetuals,
which were selling above par in October, 1950, were down to 85 and 86 at
the beginning of January, 1952, Dominion of Canada 2^ per cent bonds, due
in 1968, dropped to 90| to 91.

The decline in the pr. je of Government of Canada bonds created an
entirely different situation for the rt'-rl-eting of provincial bonds. So long
as Government of Canacia bonds were seJJLin^ above par, the provinces covild
count on a fairly active market lor new issues. When Federal Government
bonds moved below par, provincial bonds were no longer so attractive,
Financial institutions were \indarstar.dably no more eager to sell their
Ceuaadian bonds at a loss than any other investor — thus, a thinner market
for provincial and municipal bonds.

This deterioration in the supply of money for new bond issues has
come at a time when the Province's requirements in the way of capital Issues,
particularly on behalf of the Hydro -Electric Power Commission of Ontario, are
exceptionally large. Last year it was iTidicated in the Legislatiire that new
action would have to be taken and our eta. tut es were amended accordingly. As
a result, the Province entered the Hew York aarket on two occasions during
the past year with issvies of $50 million each for the piirposes of the Hydro-
Electric Power Commissicn of Ontario, Additionally, the Government maintained
its interest in the Canadian market. Two issues, one for $30 million and the

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other for $50 million, were made for Hydro, and the Province itself entered
the market, principally for refunding purposes, for a loan of $50 million,
making a total of $130 million raised in our own markets.

Ontario's New York loan last May was the first long-term issue the
Province has sold in this market in twenty years. Hydro's experience with
its May issue had not encoioraged us to "believe that the Canadian markets,
under the unusual conditions irtxich I have outlined, were capable of absorbing
another loan so soon. Interest rates, of course, had risen in New York as
well, but because of the extent of their market, we found that we were able
to borrow amounts •viiich at that time were not available in Canada.

The effect of increases in interest rates is, of course, manifest
in our issues. We have been obliged to pay from about -g^ to 1 per cent more
than we would have had to pay on comparable loans a year and a half ago.
This is in line with the rates on other government issues. The terms tipon
which we have sold our bonds are favourable in the light of the recent
experience of other borrowers and, indeed, they are a tribute to the sound
credit position of this Province, to which I shall refer later, and to the
Government's practice since I943 of building up sinking funds and retiring
debt out of surplus account -- a practice from which we have not departed
over the years. It is to this policy and to the strong control which we have
maintained over our net debt, which must be paid from taxes, that our strong
fiscal position can be attributed. This has given us the financial strength
to finance self -liquidating projects, such as Hydro, -which in the past few
years have involved over $700 million in financing, and it is this strength
•vdiich makes it possible for us to face developmental projects, such as the
St. Lawrence, with positive confidence in our ability to carry out our
commitments.

While we recognize that a low interest rate policy is at present in
conflict with the measures adopted to combat inflation, nevertheless, I am
referring back to a statement made in 1944 by Mr. G.F . Towers, Governor of
the Bank of Canada, when he explained the reasons for the reduction in the
bank rate at that time. He said,- "the prospect of unstable Interest rates
could make it exceedingly difficult for business to formulate long term plans.

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Moreover, high borrowing costs vould hamper new investment in plant, equipment
and housing, would restrict the expansion of employment, and would seriously
complicate the task of government financing."

There was great cogency in Mr. Towers' remarks then and there is
some application to the present sitviation. A slightly firmer tone developed
in the money market this last January, hut we should like to see further
improvQuent to the end that the needs of Hydro and our own capital undertakings
are met, as well as those of our municipalities, industry and the people who
are seeking to establish themselves in homes of their own.

Ontario is old enough to value thrift and saving and young enough
to need investment capital and to be able to make effective use of it. It
is no exaggeration to say that the future productiveness of our industrial
structure depends on how wisely ve are able to add to our capital stock. A
high rate of investment in production facilities gives better assurance that
the problems and tasks of tomorrow will be lighter than those of today.

SOME FACTORS IK 19^2
The immediate economic outlook, although not so trouble-free as a
year ago, has many undercurrents of strength. The increase in defence
spending will add nearly 3 per cent to our total national expenditure, and
will inevitably set up a train of secondary effects amplifying the initial
outlay. The distribution of an additional $200 million for old age pensions
will mean a boost to consumer expenditure. Continuation of the capital
investment boom in defence industries and in primary resources, particularly
mining and forestry, is assured. The pace of general construction shoiild
continue largely unabated. It is hoped that there will be further relaxation
in Federal credit restrictions on housing, which is showing some softness.
Exports in 1952 will again be at a high volume. The high rate of population
growth throiighout the democratic community of nations carries a presumption
of increased long term demand for the products of our farms, mines and forests
and memufactures of one kind and another.

The drying up of credit and lending in the money markets curbs
construction of housing and other capital works, affecting building suppliers
and employees in these fields. Shortages of steel and other structural

'.U ■j-ldja'Z

-8-
materials may form an even more effective barrier to expansion. Among the
unpredictable elements in the 1952 picture is the increased volvune of
savings of private individuals estimated at $961 million more than in 1950.

Sound economy and thrift are two of the sovmding posts of progress.
They shovild he practised by governments and individuals. The past year
has dOTcnstrated the tremendous productivity of our industry. Inflationary
pressures are considerably less today than they were a year ago, and our
enlarged productive capacity has gone a long vay towards relieving that
condition. By and large, the future is bright. Our financial position is
sound. The world is tximing its eyes to Canada and in the Canadian picture
Ontario loonB large. 1952 should be a good year.

TAXATION. SURPUJS AND DEET

This brings me to a discussion of the policy which I set out in
my first Budget Speech, delivered on the I6 of March, 19¥<-. The question
may well be asked: hov has this policy worked out in these years of
spectacular expansion and development where at every hand we see signs of
growth and development? The policy we set out at that time has been followed
vmswervingly and unhesitatingly. As I have said, it has had the endorsation
of our people in three general elections. During the last general election,
and, indeed, in some newspaper comments since, there have been attempts to
distort -vAiat we are doing and vAiat we have done. May I assert that the policy
we have followed is one which has contributed greatly to the financial .
strength of this Province. The fact that we have a large reservoir of credit
available has made it possible for us to find the hundreds of millions of
dollars required for Hydro, highway and other expenditures. It made it
possible, without a moment's hesitation last July, for us to say that in
partnership with the Federal Government we were prepared to go ahead with
the seaway and power development on the St. Lawrence as an all -Canadian
project,

I refer the Members of the House to the first fifteen pages
of that 19hk Budget presentation dealing with the policy we have since
followed. There, will be found a description of revenue producing
and realizable debt, gross debt, and the all-important net dei)t, which

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must be paid from the taxes of the people and bears Interest which is each
year a first charge on our revenues. As I pointed out at that time, this
type of debt had grown from virtvially nothing at the commencement of the
century to approximately $-|- billion in 19^3. This type of debt is inseparable
from surplus financing. If services are provided on ordinary account -which
increase the net debt, then we create a charge against each and every one of
us on our future income.

It is, of course, necessary for us to use our credit. We have not
taken the position that all of the capital costs of highways should be paid
out of the revenues of one year. That is an extreme position. Credit,
however, should be soundly used. It is a real asset which should always be
consejrved. Times come in the life of a Province when, because of recession
or other conditions, it is necessary to increase the net debt. But in times
of buosnancy, it is the way of prudence to pay as much of our capital costs
as we can from current revenues.

When I say, pay as much of our capital costs as we can, this brings
me to the matter of taxation. We could pay all of our capital costs -vdiich are
chargeable to net debt out of current taxes if we desired to impose the
taxes. It has been our belief that in these days of high living costs and
inflationary trends the best contribution we can make to containing that
inflation is to carefully control our net debt, the class of debt \*iich
is payable from the taxes of our people.

Ontario has the lowest provincial taxation in Canada. We have no
personal income tax, although we feel the Federal Government should credit
us with 5 per cent of their collections, which has not been done. We have
no sales tax, tobacco tax, meal tax or any taxes of that sort. Our taxes
are of that class -vdiich have the lowest impact on the cost of living, and
outside of corporation tax, our revenues come very largely from services
\rtiich are provided. Such taxes include gasoline and motor licence fees,
royalties on natural resources and profits on commissions operated by the
Government. Our two-fold objective has been to keep our taxes low -- in which
we have been successful -- and to so conduct our business that we can apply
surpluses to the control of our net debt and by paying what we can on
current capital costs and increasing sinking fund payments, keep our credit

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healthy and strong and reduce the interest 13111 and service cost which go
with the rise of debt.

Net debt can be Increased by deficits on ordinary account. We have
avoided deficits. We have had nine consecutive surpluses — a series that
is unprecedented in the history of this Province. The other principal cause
of net debt increase arises from borrowing to meet the capital cost of highways
and public vorks.

The covtrse we took in l^kk was designed: First, to provide for a
sinking fund which would extinguish the then existing net debt of $it-95 million
over a period of not more than fifty years. That is the amount \ihlch. is set
forth each year in the sinking fund provision. Secondly, to use our highway
revenues to pay the ordinary cost of operation and maintenance, subsidies to
our municipalities, interest on the present highway debt, the amortization of
new debt created, and after these charges to apply any beilance which exists
to surplus accoimt to extinguish capital debt in the year in which it was
incurred. Thirdly, with respect to public buildings and other works, which
are not revenue producing, to pay as much as possible of the cost of construc-
tion of such works out of ordinary revenue. In other words, to apply surpluses
■fcftiich cotild be accumulated from the businesslike operations of the Province
to the extinguishment of this debt in the year in which it was incurred.

Eight years ago I said in describing this policy -

"All of the foregoing is, of course, predicated upon governments
having the wisdom to tax for services which are given. The rule should
be that we have balanced budgets and a wise use of our credit. A
disregard of these principles will impair or destroy our credit, •vAiich
is one of oiir greatest assets, and will place our Province in a debt-
ridden position,"

I am glad to be able to say that we have followed this policy

unswervingly and with salutary results. I may point out that our practice

is to allocate many of the charges which might be regarded as capital, such

as re-aligning and eliminating highway grades, to current account and to

increase our sinking fund provisions beyond those required for extinguishing

the net debt of 19i|-3 in fifty years. In the last nine years, we have paid

$110.3 million into sinking fund --22 per cent of the net debt outstanding on

Mferch 31, 1914-3. This result justifies our increasing the sinking fund

payments .

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Another vay of illustrating what ve have done is this: for the
eight years up to I^rch 31, 1951 we have increased our physical assets "by
the amount of $215.2 million. This is in capital construction, including
highways and buildings. During the same period our sinking fund provision
and surplus have amounted to $188.0 million vhlch means that we have met
87.6 per cent of capital construction during that period from ordinary
account. The balance has been added to net debt which has increased during
that period by $26.1 million, making the net debt as of the 31st March, 1951
021.6 million. This is a very vivid illustration of how we have controlled
cur net debt during the period.

We would not approach the point of taxing beyond what is necessary
until we reach the point of paying all of our capital costs for every year
within the year in \*Lich they were incurred and then providing for debt
retirement in excess of that needed for extinguishing the debt within the
fifty year periods We have never had any such objective as that. We have
felt that such a policy vrould be extreme and would requirfi the imposition of
more taxes . We have never taken the position that wo should pay all of the
capital costs in the year in which they are incurred. Our position has
been a moderate one of applying ■vrtiat we reasonab].y can against new debt and
amortizing the balance.

I append hereto a statement which was, in part, in my Budget
Address of 19^^, and has now been brought up to date. This shows our
position in the various classes of debt to which I have referred.

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How well we have been able to control our net debt is shown by
the fact that on March 31, 19'+0, it stood at $507.2 million and on March
31, 1951, at $521.6 million. In the first forty years of the centiiry when
our population was much smaller, approximately $500 million was added to
our net debt; in the next eleven years only $ll4-.^ million. Of course, in
this latter period were the war years when there were little. If any,
capital expenditures. Nevertheless, since 19*^-5, we have seen the spectacular
expansion of Ontario, a period when we might have expected to call veiy
largely on our credit. This is a remarkable record, indeed. It is fair
also to say that the $521.6 million, under date as of March 31^ 1951> bears
a very different relationship to our income than did the $507.2 million as
of March 31, I9U0. Since that time the value of the assets of Ontario has
increased mightily. Our net ordinary revenues, due to the expansion of
Ontario, have risen from $88 million to $265 million last year. In 19^0,
the net debt was nearly six times revenue; in I95O-5I it was less than twice
as much. The purchasing value of the dollar is, of course, less. Accordingly,
the bvirden of ovir net debt is a great deal less than in 19^0.

As to the future, we shall be faced with net debt increases unless
we increase teixation, which I think we are wise to avoid. In this period
of high cost of living I think it is fair that we should moderately use
our credit to avoid raising taxes. We should apply the principles of our
policy of 19^4-, neimely, to increase our sinking fund emd retire our old
debt within the term set out and apply euay surplus above that to the retire-
ment of new debt resulting from capital works, thus makiag provision for
the amortization of our net debt over a reasonable period of years. This is
the policy we have followed which has kept Ontario's credit bright and clean
and placed us in the strongest financial position in our history, particularly
from the standpoint of our credit. Again I emphasize that we have the
lowest provincial taxation in Canada, taxation arising almost in its entirety
from services which we render or resources which we sell.

If our siirplus were such that we were making no additions to net
debt, our situation would be different. We would then be in the position
that we would be applying all our surplus to the reduction of old debt over
and above our sinking fund requirements. If we were in that position we could

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conr.lder further tax reductions, but we are nrt. Our position Is that for
a number of years. Indeed, for the foreseeable future, we shall have to
make additions to our net debt. Ovir objective must be to keep such additions
as low as possible. If we reached the position that the additions beceune
too large we would be obliged to Increase taxes, as outlined in the l^kk
policy, to take care of them.

DO^iINION-PROVINCIAL BEIATIONS

I shall not elaborate upon what has taken place in this Important
field as I referred extensively to It last September, and again in the
House during this Session. I shall merely poln*-- cut that we have occupied
only a portion of the taxing field which we cruld have rented under the
proposal of 19ij.5-46, and still we have realized more from the portion of
the field -vrtiich we have occupied than we would have from the rental for
the whole field.

The following statement shows results to March 31, 1952, but as
part of the Federal rental will be paid after 14irch 31, and, as there
will be arrears of taxes collected by the Province after that date, it
has been adjusted to take these "backlogs into account.

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-16-
For the year 1952-53 we have prepared ajid balanced our accounts.
We are budgeting for a surplus. None of this precludes the possibility of
the Province entering into an agre^nent or agreements on tax matters. The
door is wide open for discussion. In fact, discussions have been held
and views have been exchanged on a variety of subjects. JFor the last five
years we have been able to stand on our own feet without having hurt
anyone, and we feel that not only have we helped ourselves but that we
have helped everyone. Much has been learned. At the last Dominion-
Provincial conference, convened on December 4, 1950, the Federal Minister
of Finance quite generously acknowledged this ■vAien he said,-

"I believe, too, that I should pay tribute to the general
restraint and reasonableness shown by the twa provinces which did
not choose to enter into these tax agreanents. In recent years,
■vdien financial demands have been extremely heavy, both provinces
have in general pursued tax policies ■vdiich, while conceived, of
course, in the interest of the particular provinces, have not caused
serious complications for the economy as a -^ftiole."

This is quite true. Each government has been able to pursue its

policies unhampered by the others. Indeed, there has been a spirit of

co-operation and appreciation of the problems of others on all sides which

I do not think has been present for many years. This spirit of understanding,

eind the wealth of experience upon -vdiich it is based, will be of great benefit

to us all in futtire dealings. That real success has attaided negotiations

between the governments of Canada and Ontario on fiscal, constitutional

and other subjects is a matter of record. We have arrived at agreements

relative to old age pensions, housing, the St. Lawrence Seaway and Power

Development, the Niagara Treaty, the Trans-Canada Highway, conservation,

and a great many other matters. There still remains much to be done. For

instance, in the complicated subject of housing, we do not for a moment

assert that what we have done is the last word. This difficult problem

involves constant collaboration and action and I am glad to say that a

harmonious relationship exists to make this possible. In all matters of

Federal-Provincial relationships we as a Govenment are primarily responsible

to the people of Ontario. It is our job to represent their interests. At

the same time we are all Cemadlans and we shall play our full part in

promoting the general, sound economLc-. advancement- of Cajoada.

i r

"'••3;:;—; ritd& ?■

-17-

I have said before - and this applies as well ix> taxation agreements
as to anything else - that an agreement vhich is not good for all parties is
not a good agreement. It must be fair and must protect the interests of all.
It must he a Canadian approach, brought about by men of goodwill. The
Federal offers have not been made in a take-it-or- leave- it attitude, and oxir
position is similar. We are constantly looking for betterment and for
advances which will be for the benefit of all ovir people.

In the past there has been a tendency in some respects to over-
emphasize the benefits of certain types of revenue potential. In Ontario,
we have a vast industrial concentration which has become more markad than
ever in the last ten years, and it is increasing. We have received very
large revenues from industry. That, however, does not make us a wealthy
province. Industry has brought us enormous problems in Education, Welf&re,
Highways, Municipal Affairs, Conservation and, in fact, in every phase of
government. Revenues are needed for these pvirposes. If the Province did
not have them, it could not meet its commitments. In our case, these large
revenue potentials have their coimter -balance in an enormous growth of
responsibility. All governments have their own particular and peculiar
problems and it is the growing appreciation that we cannot be poured into
the same motild, that creates the spirit of understanding which has made
possible such positive resxilts in Dominion-Provincial relationships as has
been evidenced in these recent years. We have made progress, and we believe
sound progress, emd it will be our continuing policy to make further progress.

SPECIAL GRAMTS AND PAYMENTS

Recent years have given rise to a number of special problems for
our universities and our teaching hospitals which are an integral part of
our tiniversities. Our teaching hospitals play an inrportant part in the training
and education of students in medicine. For a number of years we have stressed
the importance of these institutions. Without doctors and without science,
the expansion of our health services In the Province would be impossible.
Having met with sp ecial circ\imsteuicea since my last Budget, we have made
commitments to strrengthen ovir teaching institutions.

During tthe year the Toronto General Hospital under-book to raise a

: ^ 1 1 V .

....■■ s Bad i.
yr : . . .sjad as aetr-fr. ,

i i ■ ■ . .

\

-18-

large sum of money for renovation, modernization and expansion. The
Hospital Board was successful in raising a sum in excess of $l6 million,
aM of this amount the Province agreed to pay $3 million. The position
of the Toronto General Hospital is, in many respects, unique. It is our
largest teaching hospital, and accommodation for the conduct of surgery
and treatment has become congested beyond description. Its facilities
and much of its equipment are outmoded. Surgical operations are being
conducted under conditions which place a great strain upon the medical and
nursing personnel concerned. We therefore decided to take action at once,
and we pledged the above sum, and we believe it was an Important factor in
the success of the fund-raising ceimpaign. We propose to pay this amount
from this year's oudget.

As I have mentioned on previous occasions, the Wellesley Hospital
is the site of the new Cancer Institute. The nursing facilities at that
hospital were totally and completely inadequate, and as part of our project
in cancer work we have undertaken the construction of a niirses* residence.
Of this amount, $^24,000 was paid during the current year in the normal
course and the balance of $1,200,000 we propose to ask the permission of
the House to pay at once. The Cancer Institute, which will use the
technical and nursing staffs of the hospital, cannot function unless there
is adequate personnel.

We do not, however, desire to confine this special assistance

to Toronto General Hospital, important as it is, and to the Wellesley

Hospital with the Cancer Institute. We are cognizant that the other

teaching hospitals throughout the Province also face difficulties which

come from an expanding Ontario. The Government, therefore, is Including in

the expenditures for the present year an additional amount of $1,550^000 for

dlstri>uticn among the other teaching hospitals of the Province as follows:

Ottawa General Hospital $ 250,000

Ottawa Civic Hospital 150,000

Kingston General Hospital 275,000

Kingston Hotel Dieu 125,000

Victoria Hospital, London 300,000

St. Joseph's Hospital, London 100,000

St. Michael's Hospital, Toronto 175,000

Western Hospital, Toronto 175,000

$1,550,000

•r ©"S I ;

-19-

Thls amoirnt, together with $3,000,000 to Toronto General Hospital
and $1,200,000 to Wellesley Hospital, makes a total of $5,750,000 for the
betterment of the teaching facilities and teaching hospitals of this
Province.

We are not overlooking the general hospitals throughout the
Province. In my Budget Address last year, I stated that the Government
vould pay the general hospitals, before Msurch 31, 1951, a special grant
of $l| million towards the cost of indigent care and I said that this
assistance would be continued for einother year and would be over and above
all greoits under existing bed assistance programs. It is proposed,
therefore, to pay to all of our general hospitals in the Province the sum
of $l| million before the 31st of this month to be used for their maintenance
costs.

We are not forgetting our universities. During this current
fiscal year we have paid them $5,700,000. This sum has been augmented by
about $2-5- million of Federal grants. All of the universities, however,
are faced with capital expenditures, because of needed improvements and
expansion. Our universities are not only the centres of things cultural,
but they are also the main spring of scientific and health research \diich is
fundamental to Ontario's progress and betterment. Accordingly, we propose
to the House that special grants, totalling $2,300,000, be given to our
universities this year, distributed as follows:

University of Toronto
Queen's University
University of Western Ontario
University of Ottawa, Medical Faculty
McMaster University
Carleton College

$ 900 ,000
400,000
l|-00,000
250,000
250 ,000
100,000

$2,300,000

The grants to our \miversities for the current year will therefore total,
including these capital grants, $8 million.

We are also placing to the credit of Ontario Housing Corporation
the sum of $1 million, ;rtiich will be used in connection with the Province's
expanding housing operations. This amount will be supplemented, as I shall
state in a few moments, by the provisions made for the next fiscal year.

»;.<-

, 1. ■ -r-'t .■■■"1 :

-20-

In order to strengthen the Teachers' Superannuation Fund, we
are requesting the approval of the House to pay the sum of $1 million
into this Fund.

It is my intention to introduce to the House at once supplementary
estimates \Aiich will permit the payment of these sums before the close of
the present fiscal year.

:■■,

EXPMDITURE AM) REVMUE

Including the above special grants and payments, the net ordinary
expenditure before provision for sinking funds in the present year is
estimated at $266.9 million. In addition, provisions for sinking fund
this year are made to the sum of $25.3 million. This amount includes
$7,276,000 required to retire old debt and the sum of $18, OCX), 000 applied,
in accordance with the policy ■vdiich I have outlined, to capital indebtedness
incurred during the year. This will make a total ordinary eaipendlture of
$292.2 million.

As a reflection of the high level of prices azid economic activity
in the Province, we are estimating our net ordinary revenue for the present
fiscal year at $293,1 million, resulting in a surplus on ordinary account
of $896,000.

With the permission of the House, I now table the Interim Statauent
of Ordinary Revenue for the Fiscal Year ended March 31, 1952, consisting
of receipts for 10 months' actual and 2 months' forecast.

73. .J

-21-

INTERIM STATEMENT OF OEDIMEY EE^TENUE

mSCH 31, 1952
ACTUAL - 2 MONTHS' FORECAST - 12 M)NTHS

FISCAL YIAR APRIL 1, 1951
10 MONTHS

Gross
Ordinary
DEPARTMENT Revenue

AGRICUiaiURE $ 855,000.00

ATTORNEr-GENEE?AL 2,860,000.00

EDUCATION 1,561,000.00

HEALTH ., '^ 2,879,000.00

HIGHWAIS :

Main Office and Branch .... 30,000.00

Gasoline Tax 71,000,000.00

Motor Vehicles Branch 21,000,000.00

$ 92,030,000.00

INSURANCE $ 31^1^,000.00

lABOUR 283,000.00

lANDS AND FORESTS 13,899,000.00

MINES 1^,606,000.00

MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS 527,000.00

PRIME MINISTER 90,000.00

PROVINCIAL SECRETARY 819,000 .00

PROVINCIAL TREASURER:

Main Office - Subsidy 3,641,000.00

Interest .... 71,000.00

Miscellaneous 6,000.00
Liquor Control Board -

Profits If 2, 000, 000. 00
Liquor Control Board -

Transfer Fees 570,000.00
Savings Office -

Refund of

Expenses 535,000.00
Provincial Share of Taxes

collected froffl privately owned
Corporations operating Puhlic

Utilities 630,000.00

Controller of Revenue Branch:

Hospitals Tax 6,290,000.00

Succession Duty 19,500,000.00

Corporations Tax 90,000,000.00

Race Tracks Tax ll-,0ll|-,000.00

Security Transfer Tax. . . . 1,668,000.00

Land Transfer Tax 1,800,000.00

Law Stamps 837,000,00

Logging Tax 1,000,000.00

Miscellaneous 8,000.00

Motion Picture Censorship and

Theatre Inspection Branch 270,000.00

$172,840,000.00

PUBLIC WORKS $ 45,000.00

REFORM INSTITUTIONS 2,927,000.00

PUBLIC DEBT - Interest, Exchange, 8,401,000.00
etc,

$304,966,000.00

Application
of Revenue to

Expenditure

Net

Ordinary
Revenue

$

406,000.00

185,000.00

21,000.00

$ 855,000.00
2,454,000.00
1,376,000.00
2,858,000.00

30,000.00
71,000,000.00
21.000,000.00

$

$ 92,030,000.00

$

10,000.00
8,000.00

$ 344,000.00

273,000.00

13,899,000.00

4,598,000.00

527,000.00

90,000.00

819,000.00

3,641,000.00

71,000.00

6,000.00

42,000,000.00

570,000.00

535,000.00

630,000.00

6,290

19,500

90,000

4,014

1,668

1,800

837

1,000

8

,000.00
,000.00
,000.00
,000.00
,000.00
,000.00
,000.00
,000.00
,000.00

270.000.00

$ 535,000.00 $172,305,000.00

$ 3,000.00

2,334,000.00

8,401,000.00

$

42,000.00
593,000.00

$11,903,000.00 $293,063,000.00

00.

-22-
1 also table the Interim Statement of Ordinary Expenditure for
the same fiscal period.

k

-23"

INTERIM STATEMENT OF OEDJMBY EXFENDITUEE
FISCAL YEAR APRIL 1, 1951 - MARCH 31, 1952
10 MONTHS' ACTUAL - 2 MONTHS' FORECAST - 12 MONTHS

DEPARTMENT

I AGRICULTURE

ATTORNEY-GENERAL

[EDUCATION

I HEALTH

I HIGHWAYS

INSURANCE

' LABOUR

I LANDS AND FORESTS

\ LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR ,

i MINES ,

MUNIC IPAL AFFAIRS ,

PLANNING AND DEVELOPMENT . . ,

PRIME MINISTER ,

( PROVING lAL AUDITOR , ,

. PROVINCIAL SECRETARY

. PROVINCIAL TREASURER

; PUBLIC WELFARE

' PUBLIC WORKS

REFORM INSTITUTIONS

TRAVEL AND PUBLICITY

'. STATIONERY ACCOUNT ,

■PUBLIC DEBT -

Interest, Exchange, etc.

Sinking Fund Instalments

Gross

Application

Net

Ordinary-

of Revenue to

Ordinary-

Expenditure

Expenditure

Expenditure

> 7,735,000.00

$

$ 7,735,000.00

11,712,000.00

406,000.00

11,306,000.00

67,888,000.00

^^ 185,000.00

67,703,000.00

i+i+,980,000.00

21,000.00

44,959,000.00

52,267,000.00

52,267,000.00

133,000.00

133,000.00

1,246,000.00

10,000.00

1,236,000.00

10,725,000.00

10,725,000.00

18,000.00

18,000.00

947,000.00

8,000.00

939,000.00

5,558,000.00

5,558,000.00

2,553,000.00

2,553,000,00

,259,000.00

259,000.00

228,000.00

228,000.00

1,204,000.00

1,204,000.00

3,750,000.00

535,000.00

3,215,000.00

25,507,000.00

25,507,000.00

3,850,000.00

3,000.00

3,847,000.00

8,289,000.00

2,334,000.00

5,955,000.00

1,057,000.00

1,057,000.00

30,000.00

30,000.00

249,936, OOCT. 00

3,502,000.00

246,434,000.00

28,858,000.00

8,401,000.00

20,457,000.00

278,794,000.00

11,903,000.00

266,891,000,00

25,276,000.00

25,276,000.00

364,070,000.00

11,903,000.00

292,167,000.00

-2k-

I eilso tatle Summary of Ordinary Revenue and Ordinary E5q>endlt\ire
for the Fiscal Year April 1, 1951 to March 31, 1952. This summaiy shows
an interim surplus, after provision for sinking fund, of $896,000.

-25-

SUMMARY

ORDIWAEY REVE]^1]E AND OEDIWAEY EXPENDITURE

FISCAL YEAR APRIL 1, 1951 - MARCH 31, 1952

10 MONTHS' ACTUAL - 2 MONTHS' FORECAST - 12 MONTHS

Net Ordinary Revenue $293,063,000.00

Less: Net Ordinary Expenditure (nefore providing for

Sinking Funds) 266,891,000.00

Surplus (befcre providing for Sinking Funds $ 26,172,000.00

Less: Provision for Sinking Funds 25,276,000.00

Interim Surplus , $ 896,000. 00

-26-

SUEPnjS ACCOUNT

An explanation of some length has already been given concerning
the policy which we have followed since 19^il- in relation to our surplus
position. This year, in addition to paying all of the costs of our
operations on ordinary account, we have applied $7,276,000 on old debt
and $18,000,000 against capital expenditure during the year. To this is
added a surplus of $896,000, making an application of $26,172,000 on old
debt and new capital investment for this year. If we had not followed the
policy which I have outlined, the Province would now owe $21 1^,8 million
more debt than we have at the present time, involving an additional interest
cost, calculated at 3 3/^ per cent, of $8 million annually.

A statement of Surplus on Ordinary Account for the past three years
and an estimate for the current year follows:

-27-

SUMMAEY OF SUEPLUS ON ORDIMBY ACCOUNT

Fiscal Year Ending March 31

19^9

1950

1951

Interim
Estimated
1952

Jet Ordinary Revenue 215,1+69,613.61 228,550,022.2? 265,272,106.50 293,063,000

[Less: Net Ordinary-
Expenditure
(before pro-
vision for
Sinking Funds) 190, 706, 361.37 199,271,373.6? 228, 090,421+. 26 266,891,000

Surplus (before pro-
vision for
Sinking Funds) 24, 763, 252. 24 29,278,61+8.60 37, I8I, 682.21+ 26,172,000

[Less: Provision for

Sinking Funds 15,550,000.00 20,622,000.00 21,698,000.00 25,276,000

[Balance carried to

Surplus Account 9,213,252.21+ 8,656,61+8.60 15,1+83,682.21+

896,000

-28-

I also table an Interim Statement of Capital Eeceipts and a
Statement of Capital Payments for the Fiscal Year April 1, 1951 to
^5a^cll 31, 195^.

-29-

HWEEIM STATEMENT OF CAPITAL EECEIPTS

FISCAL YEAE APEIL 1, 1951 - MAECH 31, 1952

10 MOIWHS ' ACTUAL - 2 MOUTHS ' FORECAST - 12 MONTHS

DEPAETMENT

Gross
Capital
Eeceipts

. $ 305,000.00
8,002,000,00

2,577,000.00

85; 000. 00

U, 136, 000. 00

^3,^69,000.00
25,750,000.00

11,000.00

Application
of Eeceipts to
Payments

Net
Capital
Eeceipts

HIGHWAYS

$ '.\.

$ 805,000.00

LABOUE

8,002,000.00

IAKD3 AND FOEESTS

2,577,000.00

MHffiS

85,000.00

PEOVniCIAL SECEETAEY .

1^,136,000.00

PEC/TNCIAL TEEASUEEE .

1^3,^69,000,00

PUBLIC WELFAEE

25,750,000.

00

PUBLIC WOEKS

11,000.00

$ 8ii-,835,ooo.oo

$ 25,750,000.

00

$ 59,085,000.00

-30-

INTERIM STATEMENT OF CAPITAL PAYMENTS

FISCAL YEAE APRIL 1, 1951 - MAECH 31, 1952

in MONTHS' ACTUAL - 2 MONTHS' FORECAST - 12 MONTHS

Gross Application Net

Capital of Receipts to Capital

DEPARTMENT Payments Payments Payments

AGRICULTURE $10,315,000.00 $ $10,315,000.00

HEALTH 73,000.00 73,000.00

HICSVAYS 51,900,000.00 51,900,000.00

LABOUR 7,000,000.00 7,000,000.00

LANDS AND FORESTS 2,200,000.^0 2,200,000.00

MINES 150,000.00 150,000.00

PROVINCIAL SECRETARY 1,750,000.00 1,750,000.00

PROVINCIAL TREASURER 100,765,000.00 100,765,000.00

PUBLIC WELFARE 25,750,000.00 25,750,000.^0

PUBLIC WORKS ii,95o,eoo.oo 11,950,000.00

MISCELLANEOUS 50,000.00 50,000.00

$211,903,000.00 $25, 750, COO. 00 $186,153,000.00

I now table the statements of Gross Debt, Net Debt, Funded Debt
and the Indirect Debt. '

-32-

PE07INCE OF OMTARIO

nETA.IL SUMMAEY ACCOUWTIHG FOE ESTIMATED INCREASE IN GROSS DEBT
FOR THE FISCAL YEAR TO END ON MARCH 31. 19^2.

Estimated Gross Debt as at March 31, 1952 $831+, 066,326.91

Gross Debt as at March 31, 1951 691 ,9^3 M^ .^2.

Sstimated Increase for the fiscal year to end on March 31, 1952 . $136,102,902.69

:08S Debt Increased by:
Capital Disbursements -

Disbursements on Highways, Public Buildings,

Works, etc $ 75,308,000.00

Less - Capital Receipts 2.716.000.00

$ 72,592,000.00
Disco-unt on Debentures and Treasury Bills

issued during year 81v6,931.36

Increase in Loans Receivable -

The Hydro -Electric Power Conunis-

sion of Ontario $100,000,000.00

Tile Drainage 373,000.00

Co-operative Marketing Loans 280,000.00

100,653,000.00
Increase in the Ontario Municipal Improvememt

Corporation - Investments 9,171,92^,81

Increase in Income Liabilities , l,l8l,U39.06

$181^,1^5,295.23

Gross Debt Decreased by:

Sinking Fund Instalments cheurged to Ordinary

Expenditure $ 25,276,000.00

Estimated Siurplus on Ordinary Account 896,000.00

$ 26,172,000.00
Discount on Debentures and Treasury Bills,

written off 620,000.00

Repayments of Loans Receivable -
The Hydro-Electric Power Commis-
sion of Ontario $ 1,732,000.00

Agricultural Development Finance

Act Investments l,6oll-,600. 00

Consolidated Revenue Fund In-
vestments 10,000,000.00

Miscellaneous , 14-69,200.00

13,805,800.00
Decrease in the Housing Corporation Limited

Investments 1,560,572.20

Decrease in Cash on Hand and in Banks 5,962,931.36

Increase in Reserves (Net ) 221.088. 98

1^8.3^2.392.5^

Estimated Increase for the fiscal year to end on March 3I, 1952 .. $136,102,902.69

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-33-

FBOVINCE OF ONTARIO

ESTIMATED IWCEEASE IN THE NET DEBT
AS AT MABCH 31. 1952

Estimated as at March. 31> 1952:

Estimated Gross Debt

Leas - Estimated Bevenue Producing and Realizable Assets
Estimated Net Debt

As at March 31, 1951:

Gross Debt

Less - Revenue Producing and Realizable Assets

Net Debt

Estimated Increase in Net Debt

$83^,066,326.91

264,808,681.09

$569,257,61^5.82

$697,963,^21^.22

176,1^13,259. 81^
$521,550,164.38

$ 47,707,481.44

-3^-

THE FtiKDED DEBT OF ONTAEIO
DETAIL SUMMARY CF ESTIMATED CHANGES
FOR THE FISCAL YEAR TO END CBJ MARCH 31,. 19^2

As at March 31, 1951

(after deducting Sinking Funds) $582,717,500.00

ADD - Sale of Debentures:

BU 3^ due May I5, 19'-,1 $50,000,000.00

B7 3t^ due Septemoer :., 1972 50,000,000.00

B¥ i4> due December I5, I96I 50,000,000.00

TI h^o due November 1, I952 6,^00,000.00

156,500,000.00

$739,217,500.00
LESS - Redemptions :

AL hi> due May I5, I95I $ 720,000.00

AP k^ due May I5, I951 773,000.00

AS kj, due June 1, I951 665 , 000. 00

ET 3^ due June I5, 1951 3,227,000.00

BM 1 5/^ due July I5, 1951 500,000.00

RZ 2§fo due August 1, I951 1,000,000.00

BS 3fo due November 1, 1951 850,000.00

AK kpi due November 1, I951 800,000.00

AH k^ due December 1, I95I 68i+,000.00

RA 3I due December 1, 1951 16,9^8,000.00

RAD 2 1/8^ due December I5, I951 2,000,000.00

TFB 3 1/^ due January 1, 1952 1,200,000.00

AJ hM due January I5, 1952 800,000.00

AR 4|fo due January 15, 1952 626,000.00

RB 3^ due January 15, 1952 990,000.00

BN 1 5/^ due January I5, 1952 1,500,000.00

CF 2 3/4^ due January I5 , 1955 ^0,000.00

$33,333,000.00
Increase in Sinking Fund Investments -

Current Year , , 25,276,000.00

58,609,000.00

Estimated as at March 3I, I952 (after deducting Sinking Funds).. $680,6o8,500.00

SUMMARY

New Issues , $156,500,000.00

Less - Redemptions and Increase in

Sinking Funds 58,609,000.00

Net Increase in Funded Debt $ 97,891,000.00

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-35-

PROVINCE OF ONTAEIO

CONTINGEOT? LIABrLITIES, BONDS, ETC., GUAEAMTEED BY THE EROVINCE
ESTIMATED AS AT MAECH 31, 19^2

Total as per Public Accounts, March 31, 1951 $496,856,710.98

ADD - New Guarantees or Increases for the Fiscal
Year to end on March 31, 1952 -

Fa>:er Coimisslon $ 80,000,000, 00

Park Coraniiss ions 2,500,000.00

Eailwe.ys 1, 000, 000. 00

Co-operative Associations 197,750. 00

83,697,750.00

$58o,55^,i^6o.98

LESS - Principal Maturities redeemed or to be

redeemed, .'jicluding redemptions prior to

maturity, duririg the Fiscal Year to end

on March 31, 1952 -

Power Commission $ 2,799,000.00

Park Commissions 2,600,600.00

Eailways 678, 000. 00

Schools 94,289.21

Universities ., 23,79^.65

Ontario Stock Yards Board 35,000. 00

Municipalities 2,709. I8

Ontario Food Terminal Board 537.99

6,233,931.03

$574,320,529.9?

LESS - Sinking Fund Deposits for the Fiscal Year to end on

March 31, 1952 871. 19

Estimated Contingent Liability of the Province as at March 31,

1952 $574,319,658.76

SUMMARY

Estimated Contingent Liability of the Province as at

Msrch 31, 1952 $574,319,658.76

Contingent Liability of the Province as at March

31, 1951 496,856,710.98

Estimated Increase $ 77,462,947.78

-36-

WAYS AND MEANS

In laying plans for the fiscal year, commencing April 1, 1952, we
are keeping in mind the demands for rearmament vith which rvx nation is
charged, and also the necessity of all governments doing their part to con-
trol the inflationary tendencies which can have such a detrimental effect
on our economy. We are not including any projects which we do not consider
vitally necessary for the times In which we live. We must not only keep
the matters which I have mentioned constantly in mind hut we must also
consider that we gire in an ever -progressing and expanding economy and it
is our desire to provide for greater opportunities for our citizens and
at t>.e same time keep our financial position strong.

In past years in the Budget, a very considerable review has been
given of the various departments of Government. This is not being done
this year, owing to the fact that each of the Ministers will be giving a
comprehensive review of the departments over which they preside. Additional-
ly, appended to this Budget, are a number of statements relative to the
financial position of the Province which nay be perused by the Members of
the House and others who are itterestwd and concerned. This section will,
therefore, be confined to an outline of some expanding projects in which
the Province is, or will be, engaged.

The Municipal Position

This important subject has been quite extensively mentioned in
each budget presentation for the last eight years, and quite rightly so.
Commencing in 19^^, we have emphasized the municipal position and we are
again providing increased assistance for the year 1952-53. Grants for
primary and secondary schools are being increased by $6.6 million, which
is nearly the amo\mt of all grants for education in 1914-3. Our educational
grants in 1952 will total $55.^ million. The increases in grants in
education may be seen from the fact that in 1950 the amount was $^3.6
million; in 1951, $14-8.8 million and this year $55. U million.

In 1951-52, our total grants to municii)alitles, covering a wide range
of subjects, total approximately $100 million in place of $l8 million in 1943.

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-37-
In 1952-53, there will be a "further increase of $19 million. This

increase is as much as we paid for everything in 19'<-3. The total grants
to municipalities for the coming fiscal year will be $118.6 million; in
other words, an increase of $100 million in the last nine years. Grants
in aid to municipalities now represent about one-third of the ordinary
and capital budget of this Province and form a major portion of the
increase in our expendit\xres .

During the past year two Municipal Committees have been set up,
one of them in relation to mining municipalities and the other with very
broad powers of enquiry into the whole municipal financial position. In
this latter Committee, which has an immense task, considerable progress has
been made. This work, however, will cover a large period of time. The
Mining Committee has completed its work and we are taking steps in this
Budget to deal with the matter of mining taxation in relation to our
mining mimicipalities.

As has been stated on various occasions during the past year
I feel that emphasis should be placed upon grants -vdiich are not allotted
to any particular service, and indeed nany of the present graxits might
be revised on that basis with a view to giving to our municipalities
more complete autonomy within their field. It is quite true that
unconditional grants in aid have a tendency to encourage expenditures
in a way that does not apply to grants which are conditional.

Assistance to Mining Municipalities
The Government is proposing both a change in the method of
providing aid to Northern Ontario Mining Mimicipalities and an increase in
the amount of assistance.

Since the commencement of mining in the North, mining municipalities
have derived their tax revenues from participation in the tax receipts of
the Province on mining operations, which since 19^3 have been supplemented
by grants in aid. Under The Mining Tax Act, miring municipalities were
entitled to a prescribed share of the taxes collected by the Province on
mining royalties. This method has become out-moded. For instaxice, a mine

-38-
within the municipality may employ a large number of men ajid carry

on a considerable operation euad yet have no profits and, therefore, pay

*
no taxes to the municipality. On the other hand, a mine may be in an

organized territory and have large profits and its employees reside vithin

a municipality which would not be entitled to any taxes,

A new formula is being introduced,;*Lich includes several
factors — residence of the miners, profits of any mine within the
municipial limits, the actual tax rate of the municipality and assumed
assessment figiires for the homes of miners. The effect of the new formula
will do justice to the municipalities \diich are providing the services
to the emplx)yees . /

During this present fiscal year $^4-35 ,000 was paid to the mining
municipalities under the provisions of The Assessment Act. This was
supplemented by grants in aid to the extent of $38^,000, making a total
of $819,000. Under the new formula, the mining municipalities will receive
$1,300,000, an increase of approximately $i+80,000. Provision has been
made that no municipality will receive less revenue than under the old
system. The municipalities, including the Town of Timmins, The Township
of Teck ^ich includes Kirkland Lake, and the City of Sudbury, will
generally receive very considerably more than formerly.

This is the first revision of methods of taxation and financing
since the present provisions in The Assessment Act were devised nearly
fifty years ago. .It is a practical and realistic solution to the municipal
mining tax problem which has been outstanding for many years.

Payment to Kunlctpaircies OH
Tax Exempt Provincial Properties

The Government and the Hydro -KLectric Power Commission of Ontario

will make payments to municipalities on business properties located within

their boundaries in accordance with the taxes levied for general piirposes,

including local improvements, in the municipalities. The assessment of

properties will be made by the Department of Municipal Affairs. The

valuation for assessment purposes will in each case be on the same basis

as other property liable for local taxation within the mimicipal.ity. The

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-39-

municipality will have the right to appeal the assessment before the
Ontario Municipal Board.

This provision for payment of taxes will not extend to Crown
and forest lands or to educational institutions, hospital or charitable
Institutions, parks or fish hatcheries, except for local improvements
in certain cases, but will extend to Government administrative offices
and business establishments such, as the Ontario Northland Eailway, the
Ontario Stock Yards, the Ontario Food Terminal, Liquor Control Board
Stores and buildings, Provincial Savings Offices, and the like. With
Hydro, it will include all similar business offices and establishments
but not plants and transmission lines. Section 4l of The Assessment Act
will be amended to provide for the payment of taxes by local utilities
on lands and biiildings.

The amount of $2 million is bein^ placed in the estimates to
pay Provincial taxes and it is estimated that a further $2 million will be
paid by the Hydro -Electric Power Commission and the Municipal Commissions.

Housing

Legislation has already been introduced in this House involving
a many-sided approach to this problem ■v^iich extends and strengthens plans
■vdiich are already in effect. Reference has already been made to housing
within this Province. Conditions here are in most cases not comparable
with those existing in other provinces. It may be said, however, that
this Province from an over-all standpoint has made more progress than have
the others.

We have lorged the Federal Government to ease the restrictions in
connection with private building under national housing. This, in our
belief, is the method by which to get the greatest number of units constructed,
All other Government participations are auxiliary to the efforts of the people
themselves. This Government has urged that the down payment should be
reduced eaid that materials shovild be allotted in cases of shortage to the
average type of houses.

I'-f TV.rf:?

-ko-

As Members of this House know, in 19^8 the Government at that
time entered into vtoat is known as a second mortgage plan which had the .
effect of reducing the down payment. l4,919 loans were made -under this
plan , involving the advance of $l6.9 million. These loans have been highly
successful. 1,509 have been fully repaid and $k^ million has been paid
from the amounts advanced by the Province. The Second Mortgage plan
\ra.s a conspicuous success -- so much so that two years ago the Federal
Government decided to incorporate the principle of Ontario's second
mortgage loan into The National Housing Act loans as an additional one-
sixth loan. Under the agreement, the Province retired from the field as
of December 31, 19^9. About a year later, the Federal Government announced
that as part of its efforts to control inflation the one-sixth additional
advance would be discontinued. We are dissenting strongly from this course.
On the other hand, we recognize that the fiscal and economic policies to
combat inflation are a Federal responsibility.

During the autvunn of 1951 the Federal Government restored in
some cases the additional advance, but still in a major portion of the field
the plan remains suspended. We have felt that this -was a mistake and have
continued to urge that it should be reinstated. It must be borne in mind
by Members of the House that credit, interest rates and control of materials
are Federal matters. No province can hope to successfully operate in this
field, particularly with the changing conditions which come about continvwusly.
Some suggestion has been made that the Province itself should re-enter this
field. I have already reviewed the effects of the changes of Federal
Government policy on interest rates and on credit. These conditions are
so entirely different from 19kQ when the Province was able to operate in
a second mortgage field for about a year and a half, that it would be
completely unfeasible to consider re-entering it.

In addition there is this important feature. The Federal
Government, in its wisdom, has taken steps •vrtiich are within its jurisdLotion
to control Inflation. For the Province to enter the field in direct
opposition to the plans of the Federal Government would I am quite sure be
regarded as being contrary to national effort. We maintain that in this

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regard the decision and the responsibility must be with the Federal
Government, and ■vAiile we may disagree, we shall abide by their decision,
with the hope that they at an early date will reverse it and will make
not only the one-sixth advances again available, but will take steps,
similarly as in defence projects, to give priorities for materials to
housing developments, private or public.

By what I have said, I do not desire it to appear that the Federal
Government has been unmindful of our problems. As a matter of fact, the
Minister, the Honourable Mr. Winters, and his staff have been co-operatire
in every way. We caoi readily acknowledge that only matters of high policy
would have Influenced their decision in connection with the one- sixth
mortgage advances. Despite this, in every field we have worked closely
together and we can see that, with an \mderstanding approach to this
complicated problem, very real advances will be made.

Our plajis, in co-operation with the municipalities for providing
serviced land for housing purposes, are meeting with real success. Already
many projects have been carried out across the Province, and we are sure
that this plan will be very greatly extended.

l*iy I commend the Federal Government for their participation in
the rental housinig plan which was started as a pilot plan last June for
5,000 units with provision to expand it to 25,000 units. As will readily
be understood, this includes a close partnership with the municipalities,
and as was Intimated by one of the Members of this House a few days ago,
instantaneous results cannot be produced. Every municipality has Its
problems concerning "".ocation, services and other things. Furthermore,
this type of housing Is new to our people as well as to ourselves and to
the municipalities. Authorities have to be set up. Experience has to be
gained, but this plan will prove a very useful avixillary to providing
houses for that segment of our population which Is Interested In rental
units. Already projects have been started in St. Thomas, Windsor, Hamilton,
Fort William, Prescott with combinations of land assemblies and rental in
Brockville, Guelph, Trenton, and negotiations are xmder way with North Bay,
Peterborough, Port Arthur, Stratford, Sault Ste. l^rle and a number of

-1*2-

other places.

Reference has already been made in this House to the many-sided
approach to the complicated and involved problem of housing and the
conditions which vary greatly across this great Province, This approach,
as has been said, covers the following phases: -

1. Extension and siniplifi cation of the land assembly plans.

2. Introduction of the principle of taxes geared to rentals,
which can be used as an alternative, or in combination with any
municipal, participation.

3. Broad powers to expropriate.

k. Powers to acquire lands within municipalities for
redevelopment in deteriorated areas,

5. Industrial participation.

6. Eural housing.

7. Establishment of young farmers on the land, which is in
part a housing problem.

8. A Crown corporation vdaich will in itself be a loaning
institution within the provisions of The National Housing Act to
opeitite in rural areas.

All of these points are the subject of discussion with the Federal
Government which is our partner in the problem. The purpose of both
Governments is to assist individuals and municipalities to reduce burdens
and to cut red tape.

In this Budget upwards of $10 million is being directly placed In
the estimates to further these projects. When it is considered that many
of these projects are in partnership with the Federal Government, vrtiich is
the partner to the extent of 75 per cent, it will be seen that this can
involve an expenditure of more than $k-0 million next year -- if such a vast
sum can be expended in view of the many involvements, including availability
of land, shortages of labour and material and the requirements of private
industry in house and other construction work. The $10 million, however, is
not all. There is the extension of Provincial credit to these matters
through the Ontario Housing Corporation and the corporations which will be

XSfi.:^ .;.:,i. -.--.v.

formed to take the place of the loaning institutions for farm housing and
the provisions of the Act to incorporate the Ontario Jimior Farmer Establish-
ment Loan Corporation.

By all of these provisions we are confident that we will encourage
modem housing in this Province on a big scale and that progress will be made
in a sound, practical way which will be well within the capacity of our
people to sustain.

Establishment of Loans to Young Farmers
While I have already referred to this item, I should like to
elaborate a little further on this important matter. Everyone recognizes
that a prosperous emd expanding agricult\iral Ontario is essential to the
high standards of health and living of our people wherever they may be.
Our farm work force has declined somewhat. Production has been maintained
largely because of the spectacular extensions of r\iral power to our people.
Rural power is after all the finest hired man. At the same time, the farm
labour force has been declining. One of our primary objects must be to keep
our young people on the farms. Great steps have been taken to provide for
more attractive rural life in improved highways, snowploughed roads,
opportvinities of education where equality of opportvmity is now an actual
thing, the extension of rural power with all of the benefits to better living,
rinks, community halls and programs and things of that sort.

This provision in no way duplicates the loans made by the Federal
Government under their two Acts - The Canadian Farm Loem Act and the Farm
Improvement Loans Act. These Federal Acts are designed to serve the needs
of established farmers. The loans and assistance we propose to make will be
for the purposes of establishing yoimg farmers. The Junior Farmers Establish-
ment Loan Corporation will be for the purpose of making loans to qualified
young farmers vjax> desire to enter farming as a full time occupation. The
loans may be made to young farmers between the ages of 21 to 35 up to 80 per
cent of the value of the assets and with a maximum of $15,000. As I have
said before we are placing the credit of the Province behind this project, and
Tdiile we are putting in the estimates $1 million to give effect to the p\irposes

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of the Act, it is with the intention of extending this as we are required
to do. Again, in the first year of the Act, organization has to be set up.
We are confident, however, that this Act will make a real contribution to
maintaining our rural population and not only encouraging, but definitely
making it possible for yoiing people to take up the great business of
agricultvire as their lifetime work.

Conservation

The conservation and development of o\ir natural resources of forest,
mine, soil and water are of the greatest of importance. Diiring the year
ending 31 of this month increasing emphasis has been placed on this phase
of our responsibilities and we shall have expended over $13 million.
Conservation projects are carried on hy a number of departments, including
Lands and Forests, Public Vforks, Agriculture, Highways, Mines, Education
and Planning and Development, integrated by a Departmental Committee and
now by the Minister of Public Works, The work is on a very extended front
including reforestation, forest management, insect control, soil conservation,
flood control, exploratory work concerning water tables, drainage, the
propagation of game fish and protection thereof, the work of the Ontario
Research Council and many other phases.

Two more conservation authorities have been established at Upper
Holland and Middle Maitland rivers, bringing the total of such authorities
to 15. Field assistance has been given to all authorities diiring the year
and in k of the authorities - the Upper Thames, Ausable, Etobicoke-Mlmico
and Grand - financial assistajice in the s\jm of $957,500 has been granted.
In addition, smaller grants have been given for engineering and general
conservation purposes. Reforestation has been undertaken in 3 of the
authorities. During the coming year, additional payments of $l,40i»-,000
will be made to the Ausable, Thames, Grand and Etobicoke authorities for
flood control schemes. Additional surveys are planned in several areas.

While community planning covers a wider field than conservation,
nevertheless, it is a factor. Sixteen new Planning Boards have been
established raising the total authorities in the Province to 123, covering

-45-
all or part of 207 municipalities. Every effort is "being made to encourage
planning and to secure the development of communities along sound and
modem lines.

In the problem of conservation, the Ontario Research Council has
been of great value. Conservation and development of financial resources
are in the forefront of the work of this Council. In conjunction -.d-th the
Ontario Research Foundation, industrial researches are under^way to give
to the development of our natural resources every advantage of science.
Controlled density of iron is a case in point. This year the Council
awarded from 70 to 80 scholarships to Research students and it is also
giving assistance to the promotion of research in Universities and other
fields. Science and research will make a great contribution to the conserva-
tion and sound development of our natural resources.

During the coming year, expenditures which are attributable

directly to conservation will amount to nearly $l6 million j, r;;..'. nc,ny

millions of do'J.nrs more of expenditures will be made indirectly aff ectir^
conservation.

The problem of Great Lakes water levels and erosion on the Great

Lakes shores has been a matter of grave concern to this Govemaent. Ilie

Province has no control of Great Lakes water levels -vAiich are an interinatioral

problem concerning the governments of Canada and the United Stctes. Erosion

control should properly be a problem for those governments. We, however,

are urging a joint conference between representatives of the governments of

Canada and the United States with our Province and those interested

municipalities in order that a survey of the whole matter be made with

steps to control the Great Lakes water levels to prevent the damage whicli

is taking place on our shores.

No ITew Taxes
I am pleased to make the following announcements regarding taxes
for the ensuing year:

There will be no new taxes.

There id-ll be no increase in the rates of present taxes.

There will be slight reductions in some tax rates achieved througli

f. ■■ .-. ■ ■.•5-1

46-

an adjustment of depreciation rates for corporations and a lowering of
rates of Race Track Tax and of some other minor itans.
Corporation Tax

Depreciation allowances under the income tax sections of
our Corporations Tax Act are being made to conform to the depreciation
provisions of the Federal Income Tax Act.
Race Tracks Tax

The rate of pari-mutuel tax is being reduced by the amoiint
of 2 per cent in each bracket, thus reducing the combined Provincial tax
and the proportion retained by each track to an average eunount of 17 per
cent instead of the 19 per cent that prevailed last year. This is being
done to curb illegal betting.

During the 1951 racing season, this tax, added to the

percentage of the amount wagered to which each track is entitled to receive

under the Criminal Code, made a total withdrawal from the amount staked

or deposited on each race as follows:

Total amount staked
or Deposited
on Ea.ch Race

On the first $20,000 or part thereof

On the next $10,000 or part thereof

On the next $10,000 or part thereof

On the next $10,000 or part thereof

In excess of $50,000

For the 1952 racing season, the Government's percentage has been

reduced by 2^. The tax will, therefore, be:

Total amovmt staked
or Deposited
on Each Race

On the first $20,000 or part thereof

On the next $10,000 or part thereof

On the next $10,000 or part thereof •

On the next $10,000 or part thereof

In excess of $50,000

Provincial

tax
Percentage

Percentage
Retained by
Race Track

Total

10^

9^

19^

llfo

Qi

19^

12^

Tlo

y^

13^

^

19^

iki

%

19^

Provincial

tax
Percentage

Percentage
Retained by
Each Track

Total

&f>

9?&

Hi

9f>

83t

Hi

1(4

7*

ni

11<^

656

ni

J2$

5^

ni

*ri ■

>■■■ »■ 1

2?YX

or-i

-47-
FOBECAST OF REVENUE AND EXPEMDITORE

We are estimating the net ordinary revenue of the Government for
the fiscal year 1952-53 at $291.1 million and the net ordinary expenditure
"before provision for sinking funds at $281.6 million. We are providing for
sinking fund $9.k million, leaving us vith an estimated surplus of $88,000.

We are iDudgeting for a revenue of $89 million from corporation taxes.
This item, of course, depends upon corporation profits and we are budgeting
Intentionally at a safe level. The amovmt may exceed this. If it does, it
is our intention to apply this excess, and indeed any other additional excess
of revenue, to the reduction of capital expenditures made during the year in
accordance with our 19kh policy. We are budgeting for a revenue of $36 million
from Liquor Control Board profits, $75 million from gasoline tax, and $21.0
mm ion from motor vehicle licences.

The largest items on the expenditure side are education $72.1 million,

which is $9.0 million higher than the appropriation last year; highways $5^
million on ordinary accoimt and ^k6 million on capital, or a total of $100
million, $5.8 million more than the amount appropriated in the last Budget;
health $42.9 million; and welfare $25.8 million. The estimates include
capital expenditures of $19.5 million for public works and $11,0 million for
rural power extensions.

While we are budgeting for revenues of $291.1 million, I should
like to again st:^ess that there are many uncertainties ahead. We think that
our estimates have been predicated, as always, on safe grounds. Federal
policies, of course, may affect this. Any taxation in fields occupied by
the Province or the tightening of restrictions and credit restraints could
have very far-reaching effects. Last year in the Legislature I referred to
the chaotic effects ■vAiich were produced by the Federal increases In excise
duties and taxes on spirits and beer in the autumn of 1950. I again state
that in arriving at a fair division of tax fields the Federal Government
should give to the Provinces the \rtxole field of taxation on alcoholic
beverages. The Provinces are confronted with the problems of administration,
control, enforcement and, in fact, everything else connected with this great
problem. The Federal Government as I indicated last year is deriving very much

■J.'.i

:'-. ■—. p-{d& lii^y^-.b-y-^-

more in taxation than are the provinceo. I suggest again that the Federal
Gkjverament would, do well in agreement with the provinces to vacate this
field hy progressive steps and leave it exclusively with the prcrvinces
which have to deal with the whole prohlem.

BinXi-Ea? FORECAST FOR FISCAL YEAE l%2-^3
With your permission I new place on the records of the House
the "budget forecast of Ordinary Revenue, Ordinary Expenditure, Summary,
Capital Receipts and Capital Payments for the fiscal year April Ist,
1952 to March 31st, I953 and I forecast a surplus of ^88,000.

.if9-

BUDGET FORECAST OF QRDIKAEY REVENUE
FISCAL YEAR APRIL 1, 19^2 - MARCH 31, 19^3

Department

AGRICULTURE

ATT ORKEY-GENERAL

EDUCATION

HEALTH

HIGBWAYS:

Ifein Office and Branch
Gasoline Tax Branch
Motor Vehicles Branch

INSURANCE
LABOUR

LANDS AND FORESTS
MINES

MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS
PRIME MINISTER
PROVINCIAL SECRETARY
PROVINCIAL TREASURER:
1-laln Office - Subsidy

- Interest
Liquor Control Board -

Profits
Liquor Control Board -

Transfer Fees
Province of Ontario

Savings Office
Provincial Share of Taxes
collected from privatel;y
owned Corporations opera-
ting Public Utilities
Controller of Revenue:

"P

Gross

Ordinary

Revenue

Up 815,000.00
2,998,000.00
1,980,000.00
4,831,000.00

30,000.00
75,000,000.00
21,000,000.00

$ 96,030,000.00 $

Application
of Revenue to
Expenditure

i^99, 000.00
275,000.00
520,000.00

$ 311,000.00

258,000.00

18,175,000.00

i^, 582, 000. 00

^35,000.00

70,000.00

655,000.00

3,6^1,000.00
71,000.00

36,000,000.00

600,000.00

580,000.00

670,000.00

12,000.00
8,000.00

580,000.00

Net
Ordj.Bsry
Revenue

il> 815,000.00
2,^99,000.00
1,705,000.00
4,311,000.00

30,000.00
75,000,000.00
21,000,000.00

$ 96,030,000.00

Up 311,000.00

246,000.00

18,175,000.00

4,574.000.00

435^000.00

70,000.00

655,000.00

3,64l,COO.OO
71,000.00

36,000,000.00

600,000.00

670,000.00

Hospitals Tax

6,000,

,000,

.00

6,000,

,000,

.00

Succession Duty

16,000,

,000

,00

16,000,

,000,

.00

Corporations Tax

. 89,000,

,000

.00

89,0C0j

,030,

.00

Race Tracks Tax

4,000,

,000

.00

4,000,

,000,

.00

Security Transfer Tax

1,200,

,000

.00

1,200,

,000,

.00

Land Transfer Tax

1,800,

,000

.00

1,800,

,000,

.00

Law Stamps

800,

,000

.00

800,

,000,

.00

Logging Tax

500,

,000

.00

500,

,000,

,00

Motion Picture Censorship

and Theatre Inspection

Branch

262;

$161,124;

,000
,000

.00
.00

262,
$160,544,

,000,
,000,

.00

$

580,000.00

.00

PUBLIC WORKS

$ 40;

,000

.00

$

3;

,000,

.00

$: .

,00

REFORM INSTITUTIONS

3,066,

,000

.00

2,500,

,000,

.00

]^oo .

.000,

.00

MISCET.TANEOUS

100;

,000

.00

100,

,000,

.00

PUBLIC DEBT - Interest,
Exchai3ge, etc.

$295,470,000.00 $ 4,397,000.00 $291,073^000.00

8,826,000.00 8,826,000.00

$304,296,000.00 $ 13,223,000.00 $291,073,000.00

•50-

BUDGET FORECAST OF ORDINARY EXPENDITURE
FISCAL YEAR APRIL 1, 19^g - yABCH 31, 19^3

I

Gross
Ordinary
DEPARTMENT Expenditure

AGRICULTURE $ 8,592,000.00

ATTORNEY-GENERAL 10,699,000. 00

EDUCATION 72,Ul8,000. 00

HEALTH J+3, 41+1, 000. 00

HIGHWAYS 5^,000,000.00

INSURANCE 11+5,000. 00

LABOUR 1,1+86,000.00

LANDS AND FORESTS 12,500,0r0. 00

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR 20, 000. 00

MINES 1,053,000.00

MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS 9,293,000.00

PLANNING AND DEVELOPMENT 1,850,000. 00

PRIME MINISTER 282,000.00

PROVINCIAL ATIDITGR 2l+8 , 000 . 00

PROVINCIAL SECRETARY 1, ^1^ , 000. 00

PROVINCIAL TREASURER 5,118,000. 00

PUBLIC WELFARE 25,81+2,000.00

PUBLIC WORKS 1+, 660, 000. 00

REFORM INSTITUTIONS 8, 355, 000. 00

TRAVEL AND PUBLICITY 1, 1+95, 000. 00

MISCELLANEOUS 100,000.00

$263,016,000.00
PUBLIC DEBT - Interest,

Exchange, etc... 31,833,000.00

$29*^,81+9,000.00
PUBLIC DEBT - Sinking Fund

Instalments .... 9,359,000.00

$301+, 208, 000. 00

Application

Net

of Revenue to

Ordl nary

Expenditure

Expenditure

$

$ 8,592,000.00

1+99,000.00

10,200,000.00

275,000.00

72,11+3,000.00

520,000.00

1+2,921,000.00

5l+,000,000.00

11+5,000.00

12,000.00

1,1+71+, 000. 00

12,500,000.00

20,000.00

8,000.00

1,050,000.00

9,293,000.00

1,850,000.00

282,000.00

2i+8,ooe.oo

l,l+ll+,000.00

580,000.00

1+, 538, coo. 00

25,81+2,000.00

3,000.00

1+, 657, 000. CO

2,500,000.00

5,855,000.00

1,1+95,000.00

100,000.00

$ 1+, 397, 000. 00 $258,619,000.00

8,826,000.00 23,007,000.00

$13,223,000.00 $281,626,000.00

9,3^9,000.00

$13,223,000.00 $290,985,000.00

0

0 ■

■ '0 ^

- .'yDC^') r''*^.:, ■">

-51-

SUMMARY

BUDGET FOEECAST
FISCAL YEAS APBIL 1, 19^2 - MABCH 31. 19^3

Net Ordinary Revenue $291,073,000.00

Less: Net Ordinary Expenditure (before providing for

Sinking Funds) 281,626,000.00

Siirplus (before providing for Sinking Funds) $ 9,Vi+7,000.00

Less : Provision for Sinking Funds 9,359>000. 00

Surplus Forecast $ 88, 000. 00

-52-

BUDGET FORECAST (F CAPITAL RECEIPTS
FISCAL YEAE APEIL 1, 1952 - MARCH 31, 1953

DEPAETMEJIT

Gross
Capital
Receipts

GHWAYS $ 755,000.00

lOUR 9,500,000.00

s and forests 3,175,000. 00

:mes 75,000.00

ovincial secretary 4, i9i, 000. 00

ovincial treasurer 2u, 732, 000. 00

' public welfare 6,520,000.00

• Application

of Receipts to

Payments

6,520,000.00

Net
Capital
Receipts

$ 755,000.00

9,500,000.00

3,175,000.00

75,000.00

4,191,000.00

2U, 732, 000. 00

$lj-8, 9^8,000. 00 $6,520,000.00 $1+2,1^28,000.00

Y'.n

-53-

BUDGET FORECAST CF CAPITAL PAYMENTS
FISCAL YEAE APRIL 1, 19^2 - MARCH 31, 19^3

DEPARTMENT

GrosB
Capital
Payments

AGRICULTURE $11,250,000.00

HEALTH

HIGHWAYS

LABOUR

LANDS AND FORESTS

MINES

PLANNING AND DEVELOPMENT

PROVINCIAL SECRETARY

PROVINCIAL TREASURER

PUBLIC VffiLFARE

PUBLIC WORKS

MISCELLANEOUS ,

2,000,000.00
^5, 000, 000. 00
9,500,000.00
1,900, 000,. 00
1,000,000.00

7,500,000.00

2,150,000.00
2,92^,000.00
6,520,000. CO

19,525,000. r?0

150,000.00

Application

of Receipts to

Payments

6,520,000.00

Net
Capital
Payments

11,250,000.00
2,000,000.00

45,000,000.00
9,500,000.00
1,900,00c. 00
1,000,000.00
7,500,000.00
2,150,000.00
2,92J+,000.00

19,525,000.00
150,000.00

$l09,i^l9,0'<o.oo $6,520,000.00 $102,899,000.00

-54-

SUMMARY
Mr. Speaker: Before concluding my address, I should like to take a few
moments to summarize our accomplishments of the present fiscal year and
our program for the next yea,r.

1. We are continuing the "pay as you go" policy which I outlined in
my first Budget Address in March, 19^+^. This year we have allocated
$25,276,000 to sinking fund, leaving a surplus on ordinary account of
$896,000.

2. We are budgeting for a surplus in 1952-53.

3. This will be the Gtovemment's tenth consecutive surplus on ordinary
account since it assumed office in 19^3.

k. We are neither raising rates of tax nor imposing new taxes; we are
making some tax reductions.

5. Taxes will hereafter be paid on Provincial and Hydro properties;
$2 million is being placed in the Provincial Estimates and an additional
$2 million is being provided by Ontario Hydro and Municipal Commissions
for this purpose.

6. A new formula in respect to payments to mining municipalities will
be introduced in the coming fiscal y' ar, increasing payments to such
municipalities by $| million.

7. $10 million is being provided in the Estimates to carry out various
housing projects.

8. The Province's Housing Corporation will make loans for rural
home construction.

9. The Province will make loans to young farmers to establish
themselves on fanns.

10. Special capital grants of $5 3/4 million are being paid out to the
teaching hospitals for modernization and improvement of facilities and
equipment before the end of this fiscal year.

11. Distribution of a special maintenance assistance grsjit of

$l|- million to the general hospitals will also be made before the end of
this fiscal year.

lijM aal

-55-

Maintenance
$

S£

ecial Capital

if, 187, 000

900,000

550,000

lfOO,000

550,000

400,000

150,000

250,000

150,000

250,000

100,000

2

100,000

5,687,000

,300,000

12. In addition to the regxolar maintenance grants amounting to
$5.7 million, we shall pay to the universities this year special
additional grants of $2.3 million for general capital improvement purposes.
The following are the maintenance grants for this year plus the capital
grants, totalling. $8.0 million:

University of Toronto
Queen's University
University of Western Ontario
Mclfester University
University of Ottawa
Carleton College

13. Including the special capital grants advajiced this year only,
total grants payable to municipalities and local agencies for education,
roads, hospitals and other purposes total over $105 million in 1951-52.

Ik. In 1952-53, grants to all municipalities and associated bodies will
amount to almost $119 million, $19 million more than in the present year,
excluding special capital grants. Grants for roads are up $7 million and
for education $6|- million. The total of these grants now represents
one-third of the ordinary and capital budget of the Province.

15. We spent more than $13 million on conservation in 195:^-52;
nearly $l6 million will be spent next year.

16, Curing the 1951 calendar year, the bonus paid on rural power
extensions to bring the benefits of electricity to the rural areas of Ontario
resulted in 3,^^00 miles of line being constructed and 25,795 new customers
supplied with power. Since October 19i<-3, 18,111 miles of line have been
added and l82,i<42 new consumers served, mere than doubling niral power
operations .

-56-

17. To impiDve telephone service in rural Ontario, we paid the Ontario
Hydro this year $35,000, and we are placing in next year's Estimates for
this piirpose the amount of $50,000.

18. During the present fiscal year, 273 new schools or substantial
additions to old schools will be completed at a cost of $45 million. These
additions will provide accommodation for 40,000 new pupils, making an
investment of more than $1,100 per new pupil.

19. In the field of health, the hospitals of the Province, with the
help of capital grants paid by the Government, will, during the present
fiscal year, have added 1,885 new beds and 3^0 new nursery cubicles to
their facilities.

20. As a result of the mutual cooperation between the Dominion
Government and the Province, old age pensions have become payable, without
a means test, to all persons 70 and over. Those between 65 and 69 are
eligible on a means test. Province administers the payments to the 65 to 69
age group and pays half their pensions. Province also provides medical
services.

21. The cost of homes for the aged, completed or being built, totals
$10 million.

22. In the educational field, s:,hools for Grade IX and X pupils will
now receive grants of $3 each for free text books.

23. The Department of Education appropriation for 1952-53 is $72.1
million, $9.0 million higher than the appropriation last year,

2k. The Government will provide allowances for disabled persons.

25. Capital construction grants to public general hospitals will reach
$12| million in 1952-53, an increase of $1^ million over the 1951-52 fiscal
year grants.

26. Expenditure for Ontario mental hospitals will be $l6.5 million,
$2 million moro than for 1951-52.

-57-

27. In addition to paying all costs on ordinary account, we have this
year provided for the sinking fund instalment of $7,276,000 on the old debt
and applied $18,896,000 against capital expenditures.

28. Had we not adhered to this policy of retiring old debt and
meeting part of the cost of capital construction out of current revenue,
the net debt would now be $2l4.8 million higher, involving on addltlojial
interest charge of $8 million annually.

29. Highway expenditures, including ordinary and capital expenditure
and grants to municipalities for 1951-52 amount to $104 million, $12 million
more than estimated revenue from gasoline tax and motor vehicle licences.

30. Capital expenditure in 1951-52, representing investment in
highways, buildings, special conservation projects, rural power extensions
and other physical assets, total $72.6 million.

31. Province raised $100 million in New York for Hydro and gixaranteed
Hydro issues of $80 million in Canadian market. It also entered into the
Canadian market for an issue of $50 million for its own purposes,
principally for refunding.

32. We are calling for redemption on May 1, 1952, three years before
maturity, the series RN 3"u P©i" cent issue of $15 million.

33. Second stage in the program of aerial photographing and mapping
of Ontario's forests has begun. Total area covered is now 165,000 square
miles. Ontario and Dominion governments will share fifty-fifty the cost
of surveying the more northerly and southerly parts of the province,
covering 105,000 square miles.

3^. 185 million board feet of lumber has been salvaged from the
burned-over Mississagi forest reserve.

35. We have kept Ontario's credit bright and clean. We can face
with complete confidence the St. Lawrence Seaway and Power project and
any other development the Province desires to undertake.

-58-

C0NCLU3IQN
Mr. Speaker: In these times of sudden and iinpredictable ciianges we dare
not fail to recognize our responsibility as the largest and most prosperous
of all the provinces of this great Dominion. We must conserve ovir credit
and our resources to the end that we may be prepared to meet any reverses
that may come with little or no warning and to fulfiU. our proper role in
the progress and development of this Province and this Nation.

We in Ontario must ever be mindf\il of the fact that the prosperity
of this Canada of c:^urs is all of one piece - indivisible. We cannot morally
or wisely grasp prosperity with one hand and with the other strive to
impede the progress of our brother Canadians in other provinces. As Ontario
prospers, so must Canada prosper.

In this First Session of the Twenty-fourth Legislature of the

Province we enter upon a new era - the Elizabethan era. The torch that

fell from the hands of Her Father, -rfiose career was one of goodness, courage

and of devotion to duty, has been caught up by His daughter. Our Gracious

Queen Elizabeth the Second. It is for us. Her loyal subjects, a matter of

thanksgiving that our '^ueen takes up the torch at a time when the words

uttered by William Pitt in the House of Commons in another period of trial

and difficulty, in November 1797, only five years after our then infant

province took form, have a present day application in Canada as well as in

the Motherland: -

"There is one great resource, which I trust will never abandon
us, and which has shone forth in the British character, by \Aiich we
have preserved our existence and fame as a nation, which we shall be
determined never to abandon under any extremity, but shall join heart
and hand in the solemn pledge that is proposed to us, and declare to
His Ifejesty, 'that we know great exertions are wanted; that we are
prepared to make them. . . . '"

And, Mr. Speaker, in all events, like Pitt In his day, we are determined to

stand or fall by the laws, liberties and religion and moral traditions of

our people. May the new Elizabethan era, ushered in during a time of trial

and testing in which our people will not fail, become one of the great

periods of Peace and of Betterment for all mankind.

J *i--

; :'I.

Dc£c

..lo r^anf-r ; ■ .vio ;

■59-

APPMDIX

Contents

Page

1 - Proposed Dominion-Provincial Tax Hental Agreements 6O-63

2 - Ontario Municipal Improvement Corporation 6k

3 - Investment in Physical Assets by Province of Ontario 65
h - Expenditures on Hvunan Kesources by Province of Ontario 65

5 - Province of Ontario's Assistance to Municipalities 66

6 - Population 67

7 - Immigration 68

8 - Housing 69

9 - Personal Income "JO

10 - Wages, Salaries and Supplementary labour Income 71

11 - Net Income of Agriculture and Other Unincorporated Business 72

12 - Public and Private Capital Investment 73

13 - Provincial-Municipal Capital Investment in Ontario 7^
Ik - Current Expenditures by All Levels of Government 75

15 - Estimated Tax Collections in Ontario by Governments 75

16 - Chart of Province of Ontario's Cumulative Investment

in Physical Assets

17 - Chart of Province of Ontario's Net and Per Capita Net Debt

■u.

-60-

TAX RENTAL AGREEMENTS PROPOSED AT THE

FEDERAL -PROVINCIAL CONFERENCE, DECEMBER, 1950

AND AS LATER MODIFIED BY CORRESPONDENCE

At the Conference of the Federal and Provincial Governments in
December, 1950, the Federal Go ver nine nt proposed a continuation of tax
rental agreements for a further period of five years from April 1, 1952 to
March 31, 1957 along lines basically the same as the agreompnte in off«ct
frbm April 1, 19^7 to March 31, 1952.

The 1950 offer consisted of an upward adjustment in the guaranteed
minimum payments, a new option, and two modifications in the method of
calculating the adjusted annual payments. The Federal Government was not
prepared to make any sizeable increase in the amount of the adjusted payments,
but it gave recognition to the depreciation in the value of money by raising
the level of the guaranteed minimum payments. Thus, under the agreements
effective April 1, 1952, the guaranteed minimum payments are adjusted up-
wards in accordance with the increase in provincial populations and the gross
national product per capita between 19^2, the former base year, and 19^8,
which is the new base year. This revision provides a considerable increase
in the guaranteed minimum payments, but it does not affect the level of
adjusted payments unless, of course, there is a substantial fall in the gross
national product.

The new option is based upon tax rates applicable to personal
income and corporate income in the province in 19^8, and succession duties in
certain years, and it has the same escalator provisions as the other tax
rentals. The guaranteed minimum payment is calculated by taking the sum of
the following:

1. The yield of a personal income tax at 5 per cent of 19^8 federal
rates applied to 19it-8 incomes in the province.

2. The yield of a tax of Q^ per cent on corporation profits earned
in the province in 19^8.

3. The average revenue received by the Province from succession
duties in either the two years before succession duties were
suspended or in the case of Ontario and Quebec the average of
the three fiscal years 19^^6-^+7 to 1948-^9.

xo^D- rt'-i ip:

'>.',

;o. ds^s^eTii ••■•

-61-

k. Statutory subsidies payable to the province for 19*18.

This option - Option 2 - is beneficial only to Ontario. It raises
Ontario's minimum payment to $101.8 million, an increase of $2.1 mlllicn or
2.1 per cent over the guaranteed amount that would otherwise be payable.

At the Conference, the Federal Government proposed two modifica-
tions in the method of calculating the adjusted rental payments. The first,
and perhaps more Important, was the shift in the escalator clause to a two-
year averaging of the relevant factors. Under the agreements from 19k'J to
1951 'the adjusted payments were calculated by using the average of the G.N. P.
per capita and provincial population in the three years prior to the year of
payment. The December 1950 offer reduced this averaging to two years. The
other modification involved the substitution of the concept of the G.N. P. at
factor prices for that of the G.N. P. at market cost. The former is the latter
after excluding the revenue derived from indirect taxes.

The combined effect of these modifications is to raise the adjusted
payment to all provinces for the fiscal year 1952-53 ^7 $23 million over the
amount payable under the former agreements, assuming they were extended with-
out change. The adjusted payment to Ontario for that year is raised to $127
million as against $ll8 million under the terms of the igkj - 51 agreement.

Since the Conference, an additional revision has been proposed.
Under a letter from the Minister of Finance of Janviary 10, 1952, the
provinces have been given the option, subject to them making an election for
the entire five years, of calculating the adjusted rental payment on the
G.N. P. per capita and provincial population in the year immediately preceding
the year of payment. On this one year basis, the adjusted payments are
obviously more sensitive to the changes in the G.N. P. per capita and provi-
ncial population than on either of the former two or three year bases.
While the payments on the one year reflect the increase in income and
population since 19^8, they would, by the same token, decline more rapidly
in a period of economic recession. In the same letter, the Minister of
Finance also stated that under the new agreements the provinces would not
be required to levy a 5 per cent provincial income tax but that instead
the Federal Government would maintain a uniform corporation income tax

■62.

across the nation and would allow a tax credit of up to 5 per cent against
corporation tax payments to the Federal Government with respect to such
payments made to any province which did not enter into a tax rental agree-
ment.

With these modifications, the conditions of the latest Federal
proposal are essentially the same as under the present agreements, namely,
that the Province undertake for the duration of the agreement not to impose
taxes on corporations (other than on logging and mining operations) on
personal Incomes, and, at their option, on successions. The provinces may
continue to levy succession duties, but If they do so the credits which
are allowed under Federal succession duty law in respect of duties paid to
the Province are deducted from the amount of the rental otherwise paid to
the Province. The Province will continue to receive its statutory subsidy,
but this is also deducted from the amount of the rental payment.

t,l

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-61+-

TEE ONTARIO MUNICIPAL IMPROVEMENT CORPORATION

The Ontario Municipal Improvement Corparation came into "being on
March 2k, 1950 under legislation passed in that year. Its purpose bas been to
purchase from Ontario municipalities debentures issued by them for undertakings
such as waterworks, sewage works, plants for the incineration of garbage and
drainage works. The affairs of the Ccrpcration are conducted by three directors
who, subject to the approval of the Lieutenant-Governcr-in-Councll, are empowered
to barrow money up to an aggregate of $50 million by issuing debentures of the
Corporation, treasury bills or through the medium of temporary loans.

Up to February 29, 1952, the Corporation had purchased municipal
debentures to a total of $10,355,1^1.52 in connection with water, sewage works
and plants for the incineration of garbage. The Ccrpcratlon has not issued any
debentures of its own.

Debentures Purchased by the Onteirio Municipal Improvement Corpcsration

Atikokan

Water and

Sewers

$ 237; 500. 00

Bertie

Water

137,000.00

Bracebridge

Water

90,000.00

Burlington -Nelson

Water

327,000.00

Chapleau

Sewers

310,000.00

Cochrane

Sewers

109,000.00

Delhi

Water and

Sewers

50,000.00

Dryden

Water

20,000.00

Elmvale

Water

4,100.00

Etoblcoke

Water and

Sewers

692,038.00

Fort Frances

Water and

Sewers

3^,^63.66

Grantham

Water

107,700.00

Eawkesbury

Water and

Sewers

99,000.00

Matheson

Water

5,000.00

McKlm

Water and

Sewers

472,905.00

Mattawa

Water and

Sewers

158,000.00

Niagara Falls

Water

598,000.00

Worth York

Incinerator, Water and Sewers

1,626,359.86

Oakville

Water

490,000.00

Port Credit

Water

270,476.00

Port McNlchol

Water

16,500,00

Riverside

Sewers

94,405.00

Scarborough

Water and

Sewers

2,460,200.00

Schreiber

Water

"

35,000.00

Sioux Lookout

Water and

Sewers

69,050.00

South Elver

Water

120,000.00

Stamford

Water

602,000.00

St. Clair Beach

Water

11,130.00

Sudbury

Water

77,264.00

Tay

Water

81,000.00

Teck

Water

100,000.00

Weetmineter

Sewers

28,000.00

Weet Ferris

Water

60,000.00

Wlddifield

Water

12,050.00

Windsor

Water

750,000.00
$10,355,11+1.52

R-!:;«j»^,;V«VS=:;'Vi>

-65-

PEC7INCE OF ONTAEIO

IMESTMENT IN PHYSICAL ASSETS

Highways

Provincial Lands and
Buildings

Rural Power Transmission
Lines

Other

1951-52
51,005,000
9,989,000

10,035,000

1.563.000
72,592,000

Total, Nine Years Cumulative Total
I9I+3.U4 to 1951-52 1867 to 1951-52
1 ^

202,004,721
35,300,616

i^5, 397,376

5.132.737
287,835,450

557,266,327
98,942,914

63,105,619

39.547.190
758,862,050

EXPENDITUEES ON HUMAN EESOUECES

1951-52

Total, Nine Years
1943-44 to 1951-52

$

$

Agriculture

7,735,000

63,248,822

Education

67,703,000

366,302,652

Health

44,959,000

198,845,363

Public Welfare

25,507,000

145,766,647

145,904,000

774,163,484

•-66-

PROVINCE OF ONTAEIO

ESTIMATED ASSISTANCE TO MUWICIPALXTIES
IN TEE FISCAL YEARS EMDING MAPCH 31, I95I TO 1953

Grants for Education
Grants for Hospitals

(Thousands of Dollars)

1951
^3,695
10,11^6

Grants for Health Units, School Medical

Inspection and School Dental Services 527

I Grants for Roads 21,3^6

,'Grants londer The Police Act 1,669

[Grants under The Fire Departments Act 1,551

[Grants for Day Nurseries I98

I Grants for Children's Aid 1,017

[Grants for Homes for the Aged 1,038

[Grants for Unemployment Relief 2,687

[Grants for Community Centres ^25

[Grants for Conservation, Drainage

Aid and Flood Control 60O

[Grants for Mining Municipalities 302

[Payments re Municipal Taxation on
Provincial Public Buildings

[Railway Tax Distribution 220

[Miscellaneous Grants 937

86,358

1952

118,869
11,760^^^

58i+

2^,250

1,925

1,725

235

1,175

2,372

3,000

1+22

1,835
38I1

7U8

99,506

1953
55,1+25
12,673

637

31,500

2,100

1,900

300

1,276
2,700
3,000

300

2,275
1,300

2,000
223

961
118,570

(1) Does not include special grants for capital purposes of $3,000,000 to
[Toronto General Hospital, $1,200,000 to the Wellesley Hospital, and $1,550,000
(to Teaching Hospitals -- a total of $5,750,000.

-67-

POPUIATION

Since 1939, Ontario's population has grown by 2U.0 per cent, rising from
3,708,000 to 1|, 597, 5^2 in 1951. Over this same period the number of live births
rose from 6k, 123 to an all time high of 116,193 In 1951, an increase of 52,070, or

81.2 per cent. In 1939, natural increase (births less deaths) totalled 26,593,
rose to 67,23^ in 19^7 and jumped to a record 71,223 in I95I.

Since 1939, Ontario's birth rate per 1,000 population has risen from

17.3 to a high of 26.1 in 19^7, and after a moderate decline rose to 25.3 in 1951.
Ontario's natural increase rate exhibits a pattern similar to that of the birth
rate. In 1939, Ontar:'.o's rate of natural increase was 7.2 per thousand population.
By 19^3 it had reached 10.2 and in l^k'J established a high of I6.I. Thereafter,
the natural increase rate declined to an average of slightly more than li<-.i^ for
the next three years and then jumped to 15. 5 in 1951.

In 1951, Ontario's birth registrations were 7 per cent above those of a
year ago; Quebec's registered Ein increase of one -tenth of 1 per cent and Canada's
3 per cent. Ontario's natural increase totalled over 71,000, about 7,000 more
than the previous year and i4-,000 more than the previous high in 19^7. Both the
rate of births and natural increase approximated the highest level this Province
has experienced in the last fifty years.

POPULATION IN ONTAEIO AND CANADA
BY DECENNIAL CENSUS YEARS, 1901-195l(^)

Ontario

Canada

Increase

Increase

Increase

Increase

Year

Population

Amount

Percentage

Populat:

.on Amovmt

Percentage

(000)

(000)

%

(000)

(000)

i

1901

2,183

69

3.3 ■

5,371

538

11.1

1911

2,527

344

15.8

7,207

1,836

34.2

1921

2,93^

407

16.1

8,788

1,581

21.9

1931

3,432

498

17.0

10,377

1,589

18.1

1941

3,788

356

10.4

11,507

1,130

10.9

1951

i^,598

810

21.4

14,009

2,502

21.7

ONTAEIO'S POPULATION, BIETHS, DEATHS &

NATURAL INCREASE 1939 TO

1951(2)

Birth Bate

Natural Increase

per 1,000

Natural Bate per 1,000

Year

Population
(000)

Births

Population

Deaths

Increase

Population

1939

3,708

64,123

17.3

37,530

26,593

7.2

19hQ

3,7^7

68,524

18.3

38,503

30,021

8.0

I9in

3,788

72,262

19.1

39,226

33,036

8.7

19J+2

3,88i^

78,192

20.1

39,119

39,073

10.1

19^+3

3,915

81,173

20.7

41,063

40,110

10.2

igkk

3,963

78,090

19.7

39,781

38,309

9.7

19^5

U,000

78,974

19.7

39,499

39,475

9.9

I9i^6

i^,093

97,446

23.8

39,758

57,688

14.1

1947

4,176

108,853

26.1

41,619

67,234

16.1

19U8

4,275

104,195

24.4

42,364

61,831

14.5

19^9

4,378

106,601

24.3

43,379

63,222

14.4

1950

4,471

108,554

24.3

44,106

64,448

14.4

1951

4,598

116,193

25.3

44,970

71,223

15.5

(1) Canada Year Book 1951, and D.B.S. Memorandum, February 1952.

(2) Population figures were taken from D.B.S. Memorandum, February 1952 and
Ontario Annual Eeport, December I949 and D.B.S. Beport, Births, Marriages and
Deaths in Canada, December, I95I.

-68-

IMMIGRANT ARRIVALS, ONTARIO AND CANADA

(1)

The return of peace in 19*4-5 was followed "by a renewed flow of
immigration to Canada. The volume of immigration swelled until in 19I+8 over
125,000 immigrants entered the country, of which 6l,621 settled in Ontario. Far
the next two years immigration lagged but in I95I it Jumped to a level which has
not "been seen in either Canada or Ontario since the mass immigration years
immediately preceding the First World War. In 195I, over 19^,000 immigrants
^entered Canada of which nearly 105,000 or 53.9 per cent, gave Ontario as their
j. destination. To find anything comparable it is necessary to go back to 1913-14
Ivhen 120,497 immigrants entered Ontario, but only a portion of them stayed.
During the period I9U6-I95I, Ontario received over 319,000 immigrants, or 5I
per cent of the total for Canada.

(

Canada

Imml grants
Giving
Ontario
As Their
Destination

f

Calendar
Year

U.K.

Imm1gratl<

TJ.S.

3n Arrivals
Other
Countries

From

Total

Ontario
Canada

1939

3,098

5,654

8,242

16,994

5,957

35.1

1945

10,853

6,394

5,475

22,722

9,342

41.1

1946

50,984

11,474

9,261

71,719

29,6o4

1^1.3

1947

35,957

9,444

18,726

64,127

35,543

55.4

1948

43,724

7,393

74,297

125,414

61,621

49.1

1949

22,201

7,744

65,272

95,217

48,607

51.0

1950

13,427

7,799

52,686

73,912

39,o4l

52.8

LI951

31,370

7,732

155,289

194,391

104,842

53.9

V"^^ Immigration 1939-1947, Canada Year Book, 1950, p. I86; 1948-I95I,
Statements issued by The Department of Citizenship and Immigration,

Ottawa.

:tP.

j?f>3a^..

^.?e 548,

.nr

-69- .

HOUSING STAETS, COMPLETIONS AND CAREY-OVERS
IN ONTARIO (1)

Since 19^+5, the numter of completions of new residential housing units
in Ontario has increased by two and one-half times from 13,100 units to 31,732
units in 1951* Total completions of new housing, including conversions, has
Jumped from 15,100 units in 19i)-5 to an estimated 32,782 units in 1951.

Year

B9^5
' 19k6

\9k9

1950
t951

Starts New Units

Total N.A. 13,100

Total N.A. 19,600

Total N.A. 22,500

Total 29,976 26,391

TTrhan 21,5^7 18,207

Rural 8,U29 8,l84

Total 31+, 023 31,i|i^0

Urhan 23,107 23,lJ^U

Rural 10,916 8,296

Total 33,^30 31,318

(2) Total 27,3^9 31,732

Total I9U5 to 1951 inclusive ,

Completions

Conversions

Total

Carry-Over

2,000

15,100

N.A.

1,700

21,300

12,706

2,200

21^,700

17,21^3

2,273

28,66U

21,112

16,382

U,730

l,26i+

32,701^

23,585
16,270

7,315

1,178

32,496

2^,331

1,050

32,782

19,319

187,7^6

1)

2)

Data of the number of dwelling units completed in Canada during 19^5, ^9^^
and 19^7 are "based on returns received by the Dominion Bureau of Statistics
from 623 municipalities out of a total of 3,8^5. These 623 mimicipalities
had approximately 66 per cent of tiie total population of incorporated
municipalities. The number of dwelling units completed as reported in
these returns is increased by an estimate of the probable completions in
municipalities frcm which returns were not received. The Dominion Biireau
of Statistics only provides figures by provinces in these years of the
actual completions reported. As this method leads to an obvious under-
statement of the completions in the provinces, the number of completions in
Ontario for the years I9U5 to 19i)-7 has been increesed above the actual
number reported by the same ratio as the estinates for Canada have been
iixreased above the actual number reported. Completions of dwelling units
in Ontario during the years 19^+8 to I95I have been estimated by the Dominion
Bureau of Statistics from the results of a nation-wide survey carried out
each month by the Bureau with the co-operation of Central Mortgage and
Housing Corporation.

Preliminary; subject to revision.

-70-

PERSONAL INCOME, ONTARIO AND CANADA

(1)

Since 1939^ personal income in Ontario has increased >y more than
three and one-half times, rising from $1.8 billion to an estimated $6.3 'billion
in 1951* Over the same period personal income in Canada rosp» from $^,3 billion
to $15.9 imiion in 1951.

Ontario's share of the Canadian personal income rpach«»d a high of
1^2.8 per cent in the war year of I9J+I and then gradually declined until a low
of 38.6 per cent was reached in post war 19^8. Since then Ontario 'n share of
the national personal income has continued to rise until in 1951 approximately
kO per cent of the Canadian personal income wont to the Provln6o <^f Ontario.

Year

1939
19^0
I9J+I
19^2
19^3
19^^^

I9U5
19^16

19^+7
19h8
19k9
1950
1951

Ontarl o
(Amount )
(millions of Dollars

1,766

2,059
2,522
3,002

3,367
3,566

3,729

3,821

1^,068

4,608

^^,953

5>327 ,^,

6,300 (2)

Canada
(Amount )
(millions of Dollars)

U,320
k,9h7
5,896

7,^75
8,176
9,002

9,239

9,761

10,390

11,9^3
12,757
13 Ml
15,859

Ontario as
Canada

40.9
41.6
42.8
40.2
41.2
39.6
40.4

39.1
39.2
38.6
38.8
39.7
39.7

(1) National Accounts Income and Expenditure I926-I950, p. 62.

(2) Estimated.

■71

WAGES, SAIARIES MP SUPPLEMENTARY LABOUR INCOME

(1)

The level of vages, salaries and supplementary labour income rose to
a nev peak in 'I951. In Ontario, preliminary estimates show that wages and
salaries rose to nearly $4.2 "billion, an increase of I8.9 per cent over 1950,

On a per capita basis, wages and salaries continue to remain on a
substantially higher level in Ontario than in Canada as a whole. In 1951^
estiirated wages and salaries amounted to $905 for every person in the Province
compared with $690 for Canada.

Ontario

Canada

Ontario as

Year

1939

19h6
,191+T
:i9i^8

19h9
[1950

1951

Amount
(millions $)

1,092
2,189
2,58U
3,010
3,246
3' ^98 .^.

Per Capita
$

295
535
619
704
741
782

905

Amount
(millions $)

2,575
5,323
6,221
7,170
7,761
8,271
9,660

Per Capita
$

229
433
496
559
577
603
690

Canada

42.4
41.1

41.5
42»0
41.8
42.3
43.1

(1)

Dominion Bureau of Statistics, National Accounts, Income and
Fxpenditure, I926-I950 and 1951 (preliminary).

(2)

Estimated.

-72-

NET INCOME OF AGRICULTURE AND OTHER UNINCOEPCKATED BUSINESS

(1)

Net Income of agriculture and other unincorporated 'business in Ontario
registered an increase in 1951 over the previous year of approximately $283 million
while Canada showed an increase of $882 million. This marked upswing was due in
large part to the sharp rise in income of farm operators ,which was brought about
by several factors ^including the record wheat crop and the high average prices of
livestock.

Final figures will show Ontario's net farm income in 1951 to be
Bubstantially higher than in 1950. The value of the I95I alfalfa, hay and clover
crop was $133.6 million, or $17.6 million above that in 1950. Production of
cattle and calves on Ontario farms in I95I was valued at $195 million, $35 million
above last year, while production of hogs registered an increase in value of close
to $29 million over I95O. The value of the tobacco crop in I95I was $62.7 million,
the highest on record, and $l4 million above that in 1950«

Net income of other unincorporated business in Ontario probably rose by
at least the same percentage as for Canada, or 9.5 P©r cent, and thereby contri-
buted substantially to the rise in Ontario's total net farm Income and other
unincorporated business to $1,300 million compared with $1,017 million in 1950.
In 1951 Ontario received something like 3^ per cent of the total Canadian net
Income derived from agriculture and other unincorporated business.

Year

1939
19h6

19'+7
I9U8

191+9

1950
1951

Ontarl

0

Canada^"'''

Ontario as

Amount

Amount

^

(millions of

dollars )

(millions of dollars)
899

Canada

306

31^.0

732

2,161

33.9

789

2,350

33.6

932

2,953

31.6

966

2,969

32.5

1,017

(3)

2,9^2

3^.6

1,300

3,824

3U. 0

(1)

Dominion Bureau of Statistics, National Accounts, Income and
Expenditure, I926-I95O and I95I (preliminary). Net income of
agriculture includes adjustment and equalization payments to
farmers by the Canadian Wheat Board but excludes undistributed
earnings of the Canadian Co-operative Wheat Producers and the
Canadian Wheat Board.

(2) Includes Newfoimdland for the years I9U9, I95O and 1951.

(3) Estimated.

73

COMBINED PUBLIC AND PRIVATE CAPITAL INVESTMENT
IN ONTARIO AND CANADA

Combined public and private capital investment in Canada in construction,
machinery and equipment since 19^+0 has totalled over $27.2 billion. Since 19'*-5>
Canada's capital investment has increased by 32 times, rising from $1.3 billion
to $h.k billion in 1951. In Ontario it has more than quadrupled since 19^0 to
reach $1.7 billion in 1951. Ontario's capital investment forms a large part of
the national pattern. Since 19^0 an estimated $10. U billion, or 38.3 per cent,
of the Canadian total has been made in Ontario. In the last five years,
Onteurio's capital Investment has been from 48 to 79 P©r cent greater than in any
other province.

CAPITAL INVESTMENT IN ONTARIO AND CANADA
19i^0.51 (^)

•

(Millions

of

Dollars )

Capital Investment

In Canada as ^

Year

Canada
l,0l^8)

Ontario

Ontari 0

io Canada

Canada's G-.N.P.
6,872

G.N. P.

19i^0

15.3

19^1

1M3)

8,517

17.2

19i^2

1,5U2)

2,739

10,539

14.6

19^3

l,i^85)

11,183

13.3

19^4

1,309)

11,954

11.0

19i^5

1,28U )

11,850

10.8

19^+6

1,703 )

2,048

37.4

12,026

14.2

19i^7

2,489 )

13,768

18.1

19i^8

3,175

1,183

37.3

15,613

20.3

19^9

3,502

1,298

37.1

16,462

21.3

1950

3,823

1,430

37.4

18,029

21.2

1951

4,1+08
27,231

1,744
10,442

39.6

21,217

20.8

The following table provides a breakdown cf capital Investment by type
of enterprise in Ontario for the years 1949 to 1951.

CAPITAL INVESTMENT IN ONTARIO, BY TYPE CF ENTERPRISE

(1)

Industry

Manufacturing

Utilities

Other Business

Housing

Institutions

Government Departments

1949 1950 1951

(Mini

ons of dollars j

240.2

239.3

4o4.7

279.9

307.4

382.4

312.0

359.0

354.7

292.2

321.2

335.1

72.6

72.9

87.7

101.1

130.3

179.7

1,298.0

1,430.1

1,744.3

Grand Total

(^) Capital Investment data for Canada and Ontario, for
years 1948 to 1951^ are from Private and Public
Investment In CanAda, I926-I95I, Department of
Trade and Commerce, Ottawa, P. 201.

Q roc

f.OfI -

^•..^L^4'^'

■fo r.

■!;'•:•■■ .M.i I

•hAi:

-7'*.

ESTIMATE OF PROVINCIAL-MUNICIPAL CAPITAL
INVESTMENT IN ONTARIO, 19i^9-^0 TO 19^1-^2

(Does not include expenditures or grants for

(Thousands of Dollars)

1. Direct Capital Expenditures of the
Ontario Government
Highways
Puhllc Works

Hydro -Rural Power Extensions
Resource Development (2)
Educatl on ^ 3 J

Grants to Hospitals and Sanatoria
Grants for Community Centres
Grants for New Homes for the Aged
Miscellaneous

Sub -Total

, Provincial Commissions, etc.

Hydro -Electric Power Commission of Ontario
Ontario Northland Railway
University of Toronto
Niagara Parks Commission

Suh -Total

, Municipalities ^^^
Schools
Hospitals
Water
Hydro
Sewors
Drains
Pavement, Sidewalks, Bridges and

Road Machinery
Local Improvements
Civic Buildings
Housing

Capital Expenditures out of Revenue
Toronto Transportation Commission
Other

Suh -Total

Total of Items 1 to 3 (Less Rural Power Bonus)

repairs and imintenance)

Fiscal Years or Nearest
Calendar Years '-^^

1949.50

1950-51

1951-52

32,31^

36,001

50,900

6,921

8,971

11,950

10,622

7,297

10,035

11,100

12,500

13,200

627

623

685

2,561

2,083

3,500

J+75

it25

422

196

652

1,700

1,220

l,ll|0

2,300

66,036

69,692

94,692

153,300

138,672

164,097

89i^

3,UiiU

4,020

2,366

1,772

l,o4l

2^9

kko

148

156, «09

144,328

169,306

22,000

36,000

38,200

11,300

5,300

8,200

11,500

8,200

28,100

2,900

1,200

12,000

8,000

12,900

12,800

1,300

1,400

6,100

7,300

9,700

12,400

3,000

3,800

1,200

5,500

1,500

1,100

it 00

400

1,900

4,300

3,900

4,000

9,5it8

13,520

16,500

10,500

9,300

13,700

97,54B

107,120

156,200

309,771

313,843

410,163

(1)

(2)
(3)

(M

Capital expenditures of Ontario Government departments. Hydro, Niagara Parks
Commission and University of Toronto are for fiscal years and all others are
for calendar years.

Includes the Departments of Lands and Forests, Mines and Planning and

Development.

Includes expenditures of the Department of Education on Normal Schools,
Schools for Blind and Deaf, etc., and provincial grants for capital purposes
to Vocational Schools.

Municipal expenditures, with the exception of those shown for schools, capital
expenditures out of revenue and the Toronto Transportation Commission, are
1948, 1949 and I950 debenture approvals of capital undertakings.

■-is.--

,rr

av- /. .-* 7«l*Ji_>^ ,

■- > 1 4 Ti r. 'Tf^J

>^ ,i.T-\r^p '--xp:/ _:--i__-i *V^ finr^

■75"

CURRENT EXPENDITURES BY THE GOVERNMENT OF ONTARIO
AND ALL LET/ELS OF GOVERNMENT IN CANADA
AS A PERCENTAGE OF PERSONAL INCOME
FISCAL lEAES 1938-39 AND 1950-51 U)

1938 - 39

1950 - 51

Current

Current

Expendi -

Expendi -

^b

Current

Personal tures as

fo Current

Personal tures as f>

^m

Expendi -

Income Personal

Expendi

- Income Personal

H

tures

(1938) Income

tures

(1950) Income

w

(Millions

of Dollars) ^

(Millions

of Dollars) f

TOtario Government

86.8

1,689 5.1

21^0.3

5,327 ^'^

Federal Government

^13.0

U,090 10.1

2,680.5

13 Ml 20.0

Provincial Governments

289.2

4,090 7.1

777.5

13,417 5.8

Ontario Municipal

Governments

106.6

1,689 6.3

27U.3

5,327 5.1

Canadian Municipal

Governments

288.8

l+,090 7.1

519.4

13,^+17 3.9

^^' Compiled from the Bank of Canada Statistical Summary, 1946 Supplement,
pp. 39 and 43," the Bank of Canada Statistical Sumamry October 1951, P.
and December, 1951, p. 2l8; Public Accounts of Canada, I95I, p. 102;
Comparative Statistics of Public Finance 1936-40; Dominion-Provincial
Conference January, 1941, Table 5^5 Annual Report of Ontario Municipal
Statistics, 1950, pp. XVlll and I3O; and National Accounts, Income and
Expenditure I926-I950, p. 6I.

176,

ESTIMATED TAX COLLECTIONS IN ONTARIO

BY TEE THREE LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT

FISCAL YEARS 1938-39 & 1950-51

1938-39

$
(millions)

Total Tax

Revenue

Collections

1950-51

$
(millions)

Total Tax

Revenue

Collections

Federal Government Tax

(1)

Collections in Ontario ' ' (2)
Ontario Government Tax Collections

Ontario Municipal Government
Tax Collections ^3)

Total

188.5
80.6

115.0
384.1

49.1
21.0

29.9

100.0

1,212.5
255.1

188.4
1,656.0

73.2
15.4

11.4
100.0

(1)

(2)
(3)

Any estimate of the Federal Government's tax collections in Ontario must
inevitably be approximate. Compilations of the Federal Government's direct
taxes, such as corporation and personal income tax and succession duties, are
based on the figures published in the report of the Department of National
Revenue, "Taxation Statistics". Federal collections of indirect taxes, such
as sales and excise taxes, are estimated on the basis of the ratio of retail
sales in Ontario to those in Canada.

Includes taxes such as those on corporations and gasoline and motor vehicle
licenses, mining royalties and liquor control profits.

Compiled from Annual Reports of Municipal Statistics of Ontario.

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savmoa dO SNonniw

C-1

im, H. C. NIXON (Brant): Mr. Speaker, I
move the adjournment of the debate.

Motion agreed to,

HON. L. ¥. FROST (Prime Minister ) : Mr. Speaker,
to-morrow there is the matter in which the Hon, Minister
of Labour (Mr. Daley) is interested, and which was
adjourned the other day. Also, the order regarding
the Agricultural College, standing in the name of the
Hon. Minister of Agriculture (Mr, Kennedy) ; the order
concerning the Power Comraission, in the name of the
Hon. I'linister (Mr, Challies) and the Public Service
Act standing in the name of the Provincial Secretary
(Mr. Welsh).

On lionday, Mr. Speaker, I propose to proceed
with some of the Government orders, with the estimates
relating to the Provincial Secretary, and also the
supplementary estimates mentioned in the Budget. I
think it is desirable to proceed in that v;ay. I would
be very happy to co-operate with the Hon. Leader of
the Opposition (Mr. Oliver) in connection with the
estimates, and I will give him notice as to when the
estimates will be called, so he will have the fullest
opportunity of knowing what the order of business is.
That v;ill occupy us cnFriday and Monday. On Tuesday

C-2

we would like to proceed with the Budget Debate, if
that is satisfactory to the hen. member for Brant (Mr,
Nixon).

Mr, Speaker, I move the adjournment of the
House,

FR. F. R. OLIVER (Leader of the Opposition):
Mr, Speaker, may I ask the Hon. Prime Minister (Mr,
Frost) if he going to proceed with the St. Lawrence
Bills on Monday?

I'!R. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): I had not
thought of I'onday. I would like to dispose of them
in Committee stage next week, and if the Hon, Leader
of the Opposition (Mr, Oliver) has any particular day
in mind, it may be possible to do that. Of course,
after the speech by the hon. member for Brant (Mr,
Nixon) on Tuesday, the hon. mombors of the House will
no doubt be speechless, and we may be able to proceed
with the matter of the hydro Bills,

Motion agreed to.

The House adjourned at 5.10 p.m.

'.i. .

ONTARIO

of %

Toronto, Ontario, February 21, 1952, et seq.

Volume XXII

Friday, March 21, 1952.

HON. (Rev.) M. C. DAVIES, - Speaker.

Chief Hansard Reporter
Parliament Buildings
Toronto

A-1

TWENTY - SECOND DAY

PROCEEDINGS

of the

FIRST SESSION OF THE TWENTY -FOURTH LEGISLATURE, HELD
IN THE PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS, TORONTO, ONTARIO, ON
THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 21st, 1952, et seq.

Hon. (Rev.) M. C. DAVIES, Speaker,

Presiding.

Toronto, Ontario,
Friday, March 21, 1952.

The House having met. 3 o'clock p.m.

Prayers .

MR. SPEAKER: May I draw the attention of the hon.
members to two things, please? First of all, to those
who may be a little short of money, may I remind
you that after next Monday it will be impossible to
obtain an advance on the inderanity coming to you.
The books will be closed as of next Monday afternoon, so
I would suggest if you do need a little bit of extra
money to carry you through prior to receiving your indemni-
"ty, you see the Accountant not later than Monday morning.
The second has to do with all of us.
I have been advised by the Accountant -- and those

who are guilty of the lack of doing this little
Job will be notified this afternoon -- that there are

V «•

r>:-i

i.r-' ■•

A-2

quite a number of hon. members who have not filled In
their T.D. Form. It seems that unless all these forms
are filled in by all the hon. members, those of us who
have taken that little bit of trouble will be deprived
of our pay next week. I am very, very sure no hon.
member of the House wants to be responsible for othor hon.
members not being paid. So I do suggest, when you
receive your notice from me this afternoon, together
with an additional T.D. Form, that you fill it in
immediately, because they must be in by next Monday at
the very, very latest.

May I ask for your hearty co-operation on this
very, very simple matter.

I wish to stand corrected on one little piece
of information. If you need money — you always do,
I am sure -- you will see the Clerk of the House, please,
for any advance. I am not quite sure what the regula-
tion on advances is but you can get a certain amount.
The Government does not give you the advance, but if you
need a little extra, see the Clerk of the House.

Presenting petitions.

Reading and receiving petitions.

Presenting reports by Committees.

MR. J. YAREMKO (Bellwoods): Mr. Speaker, I beg
leave to present the first report of the Standing
Committee on Legal Bills, and move its adoption,

THE CLERK ASSISTANT: Mr. Yaremko of the

Standing Committee on Legal Bills presents the following

as its First Report:

"Ycur Committee begs to report the
following Bill without amendment:

: iSirHJti

A-3

Bill No, 61 - An Act to amend The Jurors Act.

"Your Committee begs to report the
following Bills with certain amendments:

Bill No. ^0 - An Act to amend The Division

Courts Act
Bill No. 45 - An Act to amend The Registry Act
Bill No. 46 - An Act to amend The Surrogate

Courts Act
Bill No. 57 - An Act to amend The County Courts

Act
Bill No. 59 - An Act to amend The Sheriffs Act
Bill No. 60 - An Act to amend The Judicature

Act.

"All of which is respectfully submitted."
Motion agreed to.

MR. SPEAKER: Reports by Committees.
Motions.
Introduction of Bills.

ASSESSMENT ACT
HON. G. H. DUNBAR (Minister of Municipal
Affairs) moves first reading of Bill intituled,
"An Act to amend the Assessment Act.".

He said: This is the usual Bill, Mr. Speaker,
introduced each year to amend the Assessment Act, which
I would ask to be carriedon to second reading, and it
will be sent to the Committee on Municipal Law.

Motion agreed to: first reading of the Bill.

PAYMENTS IN LIEU OF TAXES
HON. G, H. DUNBAR (Minister of Municipal
Affairs) moves first reading of a Bill Intituled,
"An Act to assist Municipalities by providing for
payments by Ontario to Municipalities in lieu of
Taxes . "

.''

r,:

A-4

He said: Air. Speaker, this is a Bill
complementary to a part of the speech by the hon.
Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) given yesterday, concerning
the Estimates, wherein the Province was going to give
an amount in lieu of taxes to the municipalities; that
is to say, when the Federal Government decided, two
years ago, that they would give an amount in lieu of
taxes to the municipalities, they inserted a clause
to the effect that 4 per cent, of the total assessment
of a municipality must be Federal property, otherwise
no allowance would be given.

Vie do not do that, V/e say: "Supposing you
have only one building in a municipality, you will receive
relief in lieu of taxes on that building or land".
With reference to payment by the Hydro, the hon.
Minister (Mr, Challies) will introduce a Bill on
Monday which will look after payments by the Hydro-
Electric Power Commission.

From information filed with the Department,
there are 330 municipalities in the province which have
assesses properties owned by the province or provincial
agencies or the H.E.P.C. Toronto's assessment will be
about $10 million at the present time. But, when you
look into the future, and see the v;holesale liquor
supply building site costing $434,070, and that so far
there is an assessment of only $5,000 on the building,
hon. members may well wonder what that assessment will
amount to when construction of the building has been
completed. They have just started the building.

1

A-5

The Workmen's Compensation building will be
the same when completed, although, using their own
figures, the assessment is only $10 million. I notice
that Mr. Gray's report states that they have not been
assessed for twenty years. I understood they were
re-assessed a couple of years ago, but I noticed in
the newspaper last night that JVIr, Gray said these
had not been touched for twenty years. It would, in
that case, appear that the figures we obtained at the
Mayors' and Reeves' Convention for the taxes that
were being lost, were not accurate figures. This may
develop when we assess these lands and buildings in
Toronto. The assessment may be considerably more than
#10 million, because I am just taking their own figures,
and I feel sure it is low when compared to what it will
be when we shall have completed the process of
re-assessment.

This building we now occupy will be one of
those assessed. The one across the road — the Vi^hitney
Block — will also be assessed, but not hospitals,
schools or other similar institutions. However, all of
the "public buildings", such as those connected with the
maintenance of highways throughout the province, will
all be taxed. I should not properly use the word "taxed".
We shall figure it on their assessment, but it must be
given in lieu of taxes. This Provincial Government
has no power to tax crown property, but we can give an
amount in lieu of taxes so it will be figured on the
assessment.

. ^jror^rjt;-

A-6

Regarding the Utilities, I know the hon.
member for Vvindsor (Mr. Reaume) will be quite interested
to learn that it is no longer "may" with Utilities,
it is a definite "must", that the municipal utilities
have to be assessed and figured out, and it will be
paid in lieu of taxes to the municipalities, about
which you have had difficulty in the past. That
problem has now been overcome.

Since this is to be a short sitting, and
some Bills are to be presented, I shall not go into
all the parti culars , but , on second reading of this
Bill, I shall be prepared to submit particulars if
any hon. members are interested in learning how the
Bill will affect their respective municipalities.
Do not hesitate to ask me any questions about the
Bill. We have secured information from the Auditor's
Reports of the different municipalities, and,
although there are some mvinicipalities in the outlying
districts which have not as yet been assessed, they
will receive something in lieu of taxes. We shall see
that they are assessed, and no municipality will be
overlooked.

lim. W. L, HOUCK (Niagara Falls): Mr,
Speaker, I wish to ask a question of the hon. Minister,
I wonder if those provisions include the Rainbow
Bridge and the store zone under the Bridge.

A-7

MR. DUNBA.R: I think you do get $12,000
in lieu of taxes for that. If I remember correctly,
in looking over the estimates which I shall soon be
presenting to the House, I noticed $12,000 in lieu
of taxes,

MR. HOUCK: That is the property, not
the Bridge itself,

IVIR. SPE^^KER: Vve shall have a discussion
about that matter, I am sure, upon second reading.
I am sorry that I cannot allow more than an
explanation of the Bill, on first reading.

Motion agreed to ; first reading of the

Bill.

(Page A-8 follows.)

A-8

MR. SPEAKER: Introduction of Bills.

Orders of the Day.

HON. fi. A. WELSH (Provincial Secretary): Mr.
Speaker, I beg leave to present to the House the
following:

The 32nd Annual Report of the

Department of Labour for the Province of

Ontario for the fiscal year ended March

31st, 1951: and

The Report of the Special Committee

of the Research Council of Ontario on the

pollution of the waters of the Spanish River.

MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day.

HON. D. PORTER (Attorney-General): Order
No. 26.

CLERK OP THE HOUSE: 26th Order, resuming the
adjourned debate on the motion for Second Reading of
Bill No. 80, an Act to amend The Workmen's Compensa-
tion Act .

MR. J. B. SALF.BERG (St. Andrew): Mr. Speaker,
when speaking on this Bill a few days ago I said
that although the V/orkmen's Compensation legislation
and its administration is far better than is to be
found in many other areas, there was a need for con-
siderable Improvement both in the Act and its adminis-
tration.

To refresh the memories of the hon. members,
I want to remind' them that, on that occasion I dwelt
on the accident prevention features of our Workmen's

A- 9

Compensation law. I tried then to emphaxize the
Importance of giving Labour, an opportunity to partici-
pate in accident prevention work. I said that
working people are mere Interested in the prevention
of industrial accidents than any other part of industry
in the community, and that it was unreasonable to permit
the continuation of a system of accident prevention
which, while being paid for by the Workmen's Compen-
sation Board, is administered and operated exclusively
by management .

Before leaving that point, I merely want,
for the purpose of strengthening that argument and
my appeal to the Government for a change in the
Workmen's Compensation Law., to put on the record
the words of Mr. Justice Roach who was the
Commissioner during the investigation of the Workmen's
Compensation Act in 1950. I am quoting from page 91
cf the Report of Mr. Justice Roach, where he said:

"In my respectful opinion the present
provisions of the Act dealing with accident
prevention are not adequate and need re-
vision. Since accident prevention is of
common interest to both employers and
workmen it would seem logical that they
should both actively participate in any
organized system the purpose of which is
to lessen Industrial accidents. As
between the two groups It seems to me
that the workmen are much more vitally
Interested than the employers. If a
workman is maimed in an industry, the
employer has to pay the compensation, but
no monetary allowance can ever adequately
compensate a workman who has to go through
the balance of his life minus an eye or
a hand or some other member . "

I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that these very clear-cut

A-10

words of the Commissioner should be taken to heart by
the Government and that it should agree to .so amend
the Act that' the recommendation will be Implemented.

That is one point with which I wanted to deal,
namely that of accident prevention. There are,
however, a couple of points on the Workmen's Compen-
sation Act I think should be mentioned at this
time tc enable the hon. Minister of Labour (Mr .Daley)
to reply to them.

The second point is one that I have stressed
in this House for a number of years. In fact, I think
that like the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) I can
say this is the tenth occasion on which I have spoken
on this isaue. That is the special needs of
injured workmen who reach a stage where their incapa-
city borders on the psychological or mental; in other
words, I have said in the past, and I repeat now, that
in addition to the good work we do at Malton, we should
establish a department of psychiatrists and professional
social workers to deal with the type of case which is
no longer considered physical by the ordinary physician
or specialist , but which, nevertheless, is a serious
incapacity in so far as the workman is concerned.

We have many instances -- and I am sure every
hon. member of this House has had experiences of the
same SDrt that I have — of workmen who come and
complain that they are handicapped and incapacitated
but that the Compensation Board refuses further com-
pensation. Medical opinion which is usually the basis

^ v.-

n-

■'4m'

7io:fi>v.

A-11

for the decision of the Compensation Board in such
Instances often Is that the man has no longer a .
physical handicap, that he has been cured, but the
person involved does not think so, and he complains
of serious pains and inability to perform his work.
I suggest that in such cases the Incapacity
Is as real to the person affected as if it were
actually a physical incapacity, and that we cannot
in such instances dismiss the applicant, discharge
the case and tell the workman to go and take care of
himself, that we are no longer responsible for him,
when he is still unable to work.

(Take "B" follows)

B-1

May I, Mr. Speaker, cite a case to prove this
point? About three years ago, the hon. Prime Minister
(Mr. Frost) and the hon. Minister of Labour (Mr. Daley)
made a tour of Malton. In the official publications of
the Government, there vj&s carried a number of photographs
of the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) and the hon.
Minister (Mr. Daley) speaking to an injured workman who
was flat on his back, and who was being helped in Malton.
What happened, Mr. Speaker, is this; the workman
receiving assistance in Malton was eventually discharged
as being cured and able to work. Hov;ever, he cannot
work and, in his opinion, continues to suffer definite
and serious pain in his back. He has appealed to the
Compensation Board and it v/as until recently considered
a closed case. Yet this same man collapsed at the
door of the General Hospital some months ago and is at
present in the Hospital receiving some treatment. I
am advised by the family of this injured worker, that
the physicians in the Hospital, and they are undoubtedly
sincere: in their opinion, feel this man suffers no visible
incapacity and yet he is so affected, he cannot work.
He Is at present in the Hospital,

I suggest in cases such as the one I mention,
and in hundreds of others, specialized treatment is
required, and that should be part of the rehabilitation
work now carried on in Malton. Perhaps this should be

B-2

done in conjunction v/ith the Department of Health;
perhaps it should be done in collaboration with private
social service agencies, but I do appeal to the Government
to take the necessary steps for the establishment of such
specialized treatment for crises of that sort,' I, could

cite cases from memory for hours, but I do not want
to take the time of the House. The hon. Minister {Mr.
Daley) is av/are of some of these cases.

Let me mention just one other case of a man
who has not Viforked for about ten years. This family is
in a terrible state of mind as well as in the most
unhappy financial position, because the woman is working but
he is not. There is a dispute between him and the
authorities on the Board, as to whether he continues to
be a responsibility, but for all intents and purposes, that
man is sick and incapable of working, yet he was fully able
to work prior to the industrial accident.

Another point I wish to bring to the attention
of the Government, Mr. Speaker, is that of pre-existing
physical conditions. This matter was discussed quite
fully during the hearirgd of the Commission and, I
might say Ivir. Justice Roach came to some very positive
conclusions which I believe have not yet been imple-
mented. , What is that special problem.?

It is this, - that an industrial accident very

B-3

often aggravates a physical condition which existed

prior to the accident, but the Commission, in accordance

with the present legislation end regulations, does not

recognize the aggravation aspect of it. This works

great hardship on many workmen. i.Ir. Justice Roach, in

his Report, in dealing with this question, made the

following statement , as appears at page 46 of his Report:

" To insure that section 2(1) shall be given
its proper application I recommend that the
following be added as subsection 5 of section 2:

'(5) \7here an accident causes any injury to
a v/orkman and that injury is aggravated by
some pre-existing physical condition
Inherent in the workman at the time of the
accident, the workman shall be compensated
for the full injurious result, save only
where the pre-existing physical condition
is due to an injury for which the workman
is then receiving compensation, or was at
some earlier date receiving compensation
which has been commuted,'"

Mr. Speaker, this is a serious aspect of

our compensation work. It happens very often that

certain physical conditions become aggravated and have

a lasting, harmful effect upon a workman as a result

of the iraraediate injury, but the Compensation Board only

recognizes imtnediate injury and not pre-existing

conditions v/hich v/ere aggravated. In their opinion,

and they are guided by present legislation, when the

B-4

injury is taken care of, say, for the loss of toes, or
the amputation of part of a leg, and has healed, they
will decide that man is finished as far as treatment
is concerned, and that he has lost earning capacity
by ten per cent. , fifteen per cent. , or twenty per
cent. And yet, that injury may have put into motion
serious developments which, because of his condition,
result in his being totally incapacitated. He gets
no compensation for it. I will present to the hon.
Minister (Mr. Daley) anytime he is prepared to receive
them, actual cases of this sort, where workmen are
totally disabled.

In one case, it was an eye that was affected;
another case, it was the kidney. In one case a woman,
the wife of the husband injured, has gone to almost
every hon. member in the Cabinet with her case. I do
not want to mention names, but the hon. Minister (Mr,
Daley) I am siire, is aware of it. I am dealing with
the Compensation Board at the moment on that case.
They are sure that it was not as a result of the injury
received he is totally disabled. Medical examiners
are not in a position to say it was, but the family
get no compensation. I appeal to the Government to
accept the recommendation of Mr. Justice Roach and
apply it very liberally, because it affects the well-
being of many families

(Page B-5 follows)

B-5

One other point or tv/o, and I will be finished.
The question of the older pensioners has been discussed
here and the hen. Minister (Mr. Daley) spoke about them.
Mr. Speaker, no one denies that this constitutes a very
serious problem, that it involves a great deal of money.
At one time, I was told in this House, that in order to
take care of those injured years agajV^-^hen earnings were
low and compensation rates lower than they are to-day,
in order to . .b.ring ' those old cases in line
with present payments, an amount of something like
ten million dollars would be req.Uu.red. It may be more
than that now, but at one time I remember that figure
v/as quoted to me, I will correct that, I do not think
it waw mentioned in this House, but I was given that
fi£:ure by the late Ur. Morrison, in discussing it with
him, when he v/as Chairman of the Compensation Board.
I told the late Mr. r/iorrison>and I say it here, that
ten million dollars is, of course, a lot of money, but
I do not think it is beyond the ability of industry
in this province to carry. Let us be clear about it,
Mr. Speaker, it does not call for the expenditure of
ten million dollars in one lump sum or that the amount
be raised in one year. It means that approximately
that amount of money would be required to completely

B-6

discharge the responsibilities of the Compensation

Board to all these families during their lifetime. I
do not think it is beyond the capacity of industry
in this province to assume another small percentage
of payment towards the creation of a special fund to
take care of these very unfortunate families. The
argument is advanced, and it was advanced before the
Royal Commission, that it would be wrong to tax
industry today for accidents that occurred twenty
years ago, many of which firms may even be out of
existence. Legally and formally, it may be argued
that way, but if we approach this question from a
hiiman point of view, from the point of view of the
lives of a few thousand people affected who do not
receive sufficient compensation to live in any way
decently, who are even denied sufficient food, who
are obliged to seek charity and relief, Mr. Speaker,
I think we can overcome this problem. Industry
will not be impoverished and care will be given to
these needy cases. I do not know what the percentage
of increase would be or the additional levy, but I
am sure it could be worked out if the will to do
it were there.

In conclusion, I repeat one point I have
spoken of in the past, and feel I should repeat. We

•>:i-o J

B-7

are all very glad about the increase in the rate of
compensation. I think it is a year ago that the new
increase vms c.£-reed upon from 66-2/3 per cent, to 75
per cent. I maintain that the compensation should be
100 per cent. The rea-son I say that, and it is the
opinion of a great many people, is when the bread-
winner of a family is incapacitated because of an
industrial accident and you rive that family only 75
per cent of the earnings of the breadv/inner , you
are punishing the wives and the children, and I think
that is unfair. Their loss becomes extremely difficult
and there is no justice to this approach. I have been
told that if v;e were to x^ay 100 per cent compensation ma-
lingerers might take advantage of the compensation and
return to work much later than they norcally would, :/[r.
Speaker, I an not going to argue that there may not be
an odd case where this may be done by a person
but I deny that any considerable number of injured
workmen would ever resort to such a thing. Because
the family is made to suffer due to no fault of
theirs, nor to the fault of the father, the head of
the family, I continue to argue that compensation
should be 100 per cent, so that the family, the v/ives
and children, and other dependents should not be made

to suffer as they are made to suffer under present
regulations.

:i;r ,^0-

B-8

ijR. S. F. LEAVINE (V/aterloo North): L'Ir.
Speaker, I would like to make a contribution to the
Debate dealing v/ith the Vvorki'ien's Compensation Act
by reason of the fact that ray practicing days, in the
main, coincide with the existence of this Act and of
this Board, and I also belong to a profession which has
the duty of translating into being, the policy of the
Board for the benefit of the injured v/orkmen.

I may say I doubt whether in the smaller
municipalities there is any person v/ho has had a more
intimate and pleasant relationship with the Compensation
Board. I can confirm its meritorious evolution to the
present, and I vrelcome the further expansion of its
policy at this time. Kiay I say that at no time have I
found the Board members to be arbitrary; they have
always kept an open mind and I think v/e should pay
tribute to the Chairman, referred to by the hon» mamber
for St. Andrew (Mr. Salsberg) the late William
Morrison, of Hamilton. He is responsible for many of
the expanded ideas of the Board now put into practice.

I would point out to those who advocate 100
per cent payment for disability, that they are not
acq.uainted with applied psychology. I have the duty
of trying to return many of these people to v/ork,and
I laiov/ wherein the difficulty rests. While a great

B-9

deal has been made of the fact that no appeal Is
possible in the legal sense, may I point out there is
a provision for appeals; at least, I have utilized it
many times over the years and I do not think it is
peculiar to my own situation. As the problem is
usually admitted to be one of considerable complexity
and hinges upon the fact as to whether it is post
hoc or propter hoc, whether it is for this, or on
account of this, that the disability arises, where
I have had some doubt or where the claimant has some
doubt, I have asked the Board to nominate a panel of
three consultants in the required specialty and asked
them to allow the complainant to pick from the board
or panel, one person who is to make the decision.
You pick a specialist in that line, a man who is
interested in the causation' of the problem and I have
found in many cases, they come up with a solution
that is satisfactory not only to the claimant but to
the Board, I do not say it is one hundred per cent,
satisfactory, because again the confusion arises of
whether it is post hoc or propter hoc. I think after
yesterday's presentation of the Budget in which we
saw one million dollars transferred for the pensions
of teachers, with which I might say I am totally in
accord, and I very much appreciated the presentation

B-10

of the hon. Minister of Lsbour (Mr. Daley) when he
told with accuracy and soundness, the reason, why
pensions awarded in the past could not be increased.
The problem is, nevertheless, very real and I think it
is a problem whichv/arrants study by the Board and
industry throughout this province. If it is beneficial
for the tecchers to receive such treatment, I submit it
is beneficial for the workmen who have been injured .
in the past.

(TiJCE "C" FOLLOV/S)

C-1

One other improvement is asked for, and that
is the compensation be paid for those injured in civil
defence effort. At the present time we are having
difficulty covering our temporary policemen , firemen,
and our general workmen.

Those are two improvements which I think are
very much in order, and I stand before you as one who
thinks and knows from experience that this has been
and is the best Act of its kind in the world,

I would make another recommendation to the
Board, but perhaps for not such serious consideration,
bom.e of us are only visitors in Toronto and temporary
residents, Ilay I point out that we, who come from the
outlying districts, are not entirely acquainted with
the type of motorists you have in the City of Toronto,
and we are not nearly as agile as Toronto pedestrians,
and there should be some coverage given to those of us
who are here from outlying districts, because every
time v;e go downtown on your city streets, we take our
lives in our hands,

I"R. S. J. HUKT (Renfrew North): Fr. Speaker,
may I say at the outset that I am wholly in agreement
with the principle of this Bill,

I have a specific case of a situation which

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C-2

may be mare or less general throughout the Province,

which I have been asked by an employer of the man

involved in this particular case to bring to the

attention of the House, when the V/orkmen's Compensation

Act amendment was being discussed. I will quote an

extract from a letter sent by the Board:

"The point I am trying to make for the benefit
of Dr. Cotnam and the employer is that con-
ditions which may be termed purely physical,
or health conditions which merely manifest
themselves while a person is at work ,are not
covered by the provisions of any 7orkmen's
Compensation Act, and no doubt this thinking
is proven in the minds of the legislatures
down through the years because the entire cost
of compensable accidents must be paid by the
employer with no contributions from either the
workman or the Government. In fact such con-
ditions v;ere discussed before the Royal Commis-
sion enquiry which was conducted by Honourable
Justice Roach a year ago, and the Justice
recommended to the Legislature that such
purely physical conditions were certainly
outside and should be outside the provisions
of Workmen's Compensation Legislation,"

In this particular case, the employer, the
National Grocers Company Limited, is lOO^o behind this
man's claim.

There are several reasons why I wanted to
bring this up. The first is, that this man was a

veteran of the Second VJorld V7ar, discharged in 1946,
from the Canadian Army, with a clear bill of health,

so he is a comparatively young man, and, as shown in

J J3it-^ »n .

C-3

the letter, since then he has lost no time from
work due to illness, other than a couple of weeks in
regard to some minor operation, in a previous year.

This is a coronary case, which the man suffered
on the 19th of October, 1951. He is still under medical
ca e and hospitalization,

I have a letter here from Dr. D. A, KacKercher,
of Cobden, Ontario. In passing, may I say that Dr,
IvIacKercher has nearly thirty years' experience as a
practising physician in the Village of Cobden, The
letter is as follows:

"Re: Mr, Earchman Zufelt.

On Oct. 19/51 I was called to the farm of lir.
Klaus Beimer to see Mr. z,ufelt, who was suffer-
ing from an acute attack of coronary, suffered
after he ran from the field near the farm-
house to his car, when it started to pour rain
very hard.

He had been in the field looking at potatoes
to buy for his firm, when the rain started.

There is no doubt, this over-exertion of
running to the car, was the cause of the attack
and as it occurred when in the course of his
duty to the firm, it should in my opinion
be covered by compensation."

I also have a letter from Dr, H, B, Cotnam,
of Pembroke, supporting the statem.ent made by Mr,
MacKercher, which I do not intend to read.

This is not something new to come before the

39C

,:K&a3c

C-4

Workmen's Compensation Board, but it is not covered

under the regulations of the VJorkmen's Compensation Act.

In another sentence it said:

"He need only refer to the various representa-
tions made by the Labour Organizations
representing fire fighters, who have been
for some time striving to have coronary
thrombosis declared an industrial disease
for fire-fighters under the provisions of
various !Jorkmen's Compensation Acts."

I understand that something has been done by
way of revising or amending the regulations, to include
fire-fighters who suffer from coronary thrombosis, while
in the discharge of their duties,

I would like to suggest to the Hon. Minister
(Mr, Daley) that consideration be given to amending
this Bill, when it comes before the Committee of the
Whole House, by adding an additional clause, so that
the workmen or employees who suffer a coronary while
actually engaged in the discharge of their duties may
be compensated in some way,

li/jR. A. !'7REK (Kenora) : Mr. Speaker, I have one
or tv/o observations to make on the amendment to the
Workmen's Compensation Act, as I mentioned when I was
speaking the other day on the re^ly to the Speech
from the Throne.

At the outset I want to say that many of the

:<J -Tl ■

C-5

railroad unions are in complete accord with the provisions
of this amendment in its coverage for apprentices and
"learners" who are exposed to injury, although not
actually employed by the railroad. Kay I commend the
Hon. Minister [Vr . Daley) for including those in the
legislation.

There is one matter which I mentioned the other
day, and which has also been mentioned by one or two
hon, members, and that is in regard to compensation
to people who have been injured in previous years while
working for lower incomes more particularly those who
are widows and dependents of men who were killed vrhile
engaged in the discharge of their duties, I do not think
we can fail to recognize the need of these people, I
can appreciate the problem the Hon, Minister (Mr<, Daley)
has when he says it might be difficult to reconcile
the costs of these adjustments, with the costs of
compensation in industry to-day.

But I think there is one thing missing from
every balance sheet of industry, something which
perhaps cannot be expressed in dollars and cents,

but something which certainly has a proper place
in the assets of any company, and that is the loyalty
over years of service which an employee in that industry
has devoted to it^ There is no way of expressing it in

C-6

dollars and cents. There is another means of expres-
sing the equity these men have in industry, and
that is by seeing to it that their wives and dependents
are cared for adequately, should the workmen be killed
in the performance of their duties.

Let me cite, as an example, the Dominion Govern-
ment, It pays a widow with two children .i^lVO a month,
if the husband is killed in military service, I know
the examples are not precisely parallel, but I often
think — and I have had military service myself —
that a man in industry who is obeying the orders of
an executive officer or foreman, or other person in
authority in his company, is just as entitled to protec-
tion as the man in uniform who is obeying the order
of a sergeant or an officer.

By comparison, under the present rates of
compensation, ; Q widow with three children would
receive \^'7h*00 a month. There is a wide difference
between the ^74 #00 a month she would receive under our
present regulations, and the hp170 a month she would
receive had her husband been killed while wearing a
military uniform,

I agree this is something which will require
considerable study, but I do hope the Hon, Minister

'■■ !■.»«-■ i

C-7

(Mr, Daley) will take the matter under serious advise-
ment, at the earliest possible date, •

Ky riding, while large in area, is not so great
in population as many of the southern ridings, but I per-
sonally know more than twenty widows with families who
are actually in need, whose husbands were killed in the
line of duty, and in the discharge of those duties,
were carrying out the orders given to them by a superior
in the industry,

I am inclined to agree with the Hon, Minister
when he says that we have the best compensation laws
in the world, and may I say to him, let us keep it the
best, I do not think we should hesitate to keep our
compensation legislation to the fore, by paying particular
attention to the families and dependents of the men who
have lost their, lives in the service of the industry
which employed them.

There is another observation I would like to
make to the Hon. Minister (Mr, Daley) while this matter
is under consideration. That is the manner of settling
hospital accounts. As any hon. member of the House, who
has served on a Hospital Board or been connected with a
hospital in any way, knows, one of the greatest problems
with which a hospital is faced is the collection of

C-g

accounts, As serious as the collection of individual
accounts becomes, the collection of compensation accounts
by hospitals, for some reason or other, is very complica-
ted, and it has resulted in a serious financial loss to
many hospitals. In fact, one of the hospitals in my
own riding writes off per year several thousand dollars,
in regard to compensation accounts which cannot be
collected, because of some mistake, or some lack of
correctly following the procedure, either by the work-
men or by the doctor, and possibly sometimes by the
hospital itself.

In the northern country particularly, there are
a large number of D.P, workmen, who are not conversant
with our language, nor with our regulations. !'Je find one
particular point which is becoming very serious, and
that is the report the workman has to make to the Board
on his own initiative, which has some direct relation
to the hospital accounts. Many times the workmen
cannot understand the form, and, of course, neglecta
to ask anyone who understands it to help him, Ths
result is, the hospital bill is not paid. I have a
rather intimate knowledge of this matter, because I
have something to do with the hospitals at home.

« '-

, *

3 SVBfi I

C-9

I also have a letter from the Board of the Kenora
General Hospital, where they are experiencing the same
difficulty.

I would commend the attention of the Hon, Minister
to this fact, because industry has paid for the coverage,
a workman is entitled to treatment, which the hospital
generally willingly provides, and I would seriously ask
the I''inister to study this matter and see if some better
means of protecting the hospitals cannot be worked out,

Fil. T. D. THOMAS (Ontario): Mr. Speaker, I do
not wish to prolong the debate on the amendment before
us. The hon, member for Cochrane South (Mr, Grummett)
and myself welcome this amendment, but frankly we are
disappointed. V/e think the Government should bring in
some further amendments along the lines suggested by
Mr, Justice Roach,

I listened with a great deal of attention the
other afternoon to the remarks by the Hon, Minister of
Labour, which were very interesting and very informative,
but there was one statement he made which I think could
be questioned. That was when he said the Government
had dealt with all the recommendations of Mr. Justice
Roach, except the one referring to accident prevention.

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C-10

I think, Mr, Speaker, the Hon, Minister may agree that
statement was somewhat of an exaggeration.

To the question of payment for those who have
been disabled in the years gone by, I was very pleased
to hear the the hon. member for Addington {¥jr, Pringle)
and the hon. member for ^'Jaterloo iMorth (Mr. Levine)
have agreed on the question of the adjustment for
compensation of these unfortunate people,

I would like to ask the Hon. Minister if he
thinks this request is a r easonable one, and that some
adjustment should be made. Would the Hon. Minister care
to answer that?

Mr, Speaker retires,

Mr, Parry in the Chair,

HON. CHARLES DaLEY (Minister of Labour):
I will answer all the questions, Mr. Speaker, in a :

moment.

IIR. THOMAS (Ontario): It was said the

other afternoon, it should not be a charge on the
municipality. Sir Justice Roach recommended that it
should be paid out of the consolidated revenue,

I agree with the hon, member for Waterloo
North (Mr, Levine) when he said if we can apportion

C-11

one million dollars toward the super-annuation fund for
the teachers — with which, of course, I am in complete
agreement — I see no reason why an adjustment cannot be
made for the unfortunate people who have been injured in

the days gone by,

I hope the Hon, Minister will consider his

attitude of Monday and tell us the Government will give
this some further consideration.

The question of accident prevention has

been very ably covered by the hon. member for bt. Andrew
(I^r. Salsberg), While the manufacturers, of course, are
interested in cutting-down the accident incidence^ we
must agree that the workers are also, but from a slightly
different angle. The manufacturers, of course, think
of the decrease in the levies which might be made by
the 'Workmen's Compensation Board, But, llr. Speaker,
with the working people, those engaged in industry, it
is a question of the loss of a leg or an arm or an eye,
or even perhaps the loss of life itself. They stand to
sacrifice everything, if they are unfortunate enough
to be involved in an accident, and no monetary reward
can compensate them for the loss of a limb or of life
itself.

I would ask the Hon, Ilinister if he would

C-12

re-consider the question of representation of organized

labour on these Coinrnittees, The hon. member for St,

Andrew (Mr. Salsberg) quoted an extract from a report

of Fr, Justice Roach regarding accident prevention.

I wish he had gone a little further. On the same

page, the learned judge is very critical of the present

arrangement, insofar as accident prevention is concerned,

I would like to draw that to the attention of the Hon.

Minister, as it seems to me it proves very conclusively

this point, where he says:

"Several of the associations complained they
were handicapped in properly furfilling
their functions by reason of:

(a) lack of sufficient funds, and

(b) the failure of the Board to impose
sanctions on employers v;ho flagrantly
violate well-recognized rules for
safety, notwithstanding the association
has reported these violations to the
Board."

I hops the Hon. Minister will re-consider

the question of representation of organized labour on

these accident-prevention committees, because I feel

if they are given an opportunity to co-operate in the

years to come, it will pay dividends, because no one is

more interested in the curtailment of accidents than the

men who are operating the machines.

::.!.-

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C-13

HON. CHaS. DALEY (Minister of Labour): llr.
Speaker, in reply to the representations made this
afternoon, I think I shall pass quickly over the amend-
ment before the House, because it has been gone into
very carefully, and I think practically all hon. members
are in agreement with the amendment proposed.

The other day, while making representations
to the House, I was asked a question by the Hon. Leader
of the Opposition (I"r. Oliver) if ther-e was an appeal,
and I said, "No, there is no appeal", I meant that
from a legal point of view, Mr. Speaker, because, as
I have said frequently in this House, a case before the
Workmen's Compensation Board is really never closed.

The procedure, when a case is sent to the
Board, is as follows:

It goes, first, before a claims officer, who
is experienced, from dealing with thousands of cases of
this kind.
Mr, Speaker resumes the Chair.

L'IR. DaLEY: The claims officer rejects the
claim, that is, if he feels, in hds opinion, the claim
is not justified, then the applicant for compensation
will have access to a review board, which is composed
of a doctor and two members of the staff. If the claim

i

C-14

is still rejected, he has a further appeal to the
^"/orkmen's Compensation Board itself — the actual
members of the Commission, If he is still not satis-
fied, he has, as the hon. member for ^'aterloo North
(Mr, Levine) said, the right to appear before a referee.
There is a group composed of three specialists, men
considered to be ''tops" in their profession, men who
have no connection with the Board, with the industry,
nor with the injured workmen,- but are three absolutely-
impartial men, one of whom will be the referee, When
the a pplicant 's case is completely reviewed, and we hope
justly dealt with.

That is the type of appeal there is, Mr,
Speaker, to prevent inju"artices creeping into the aQjuin-
istration of the Workmen^s Compensation Board,

, V^ith regard to accident prevention:
I will not deal with this at any great length to-day,
because time is passing, but accident prevention is,
and has been given a great deal of consideration by
myself, members of the Board, members of organized
labour whom I have met on frequent occasions -- as a
matter of fact, I have an appointment with a group for
next week — to endeavour to see if there is a better

C-15

way by which this work could be done.

V/e have spoken about the employers performing
the accident prevention work. Actually, it is the
workers, as the foremen, the superintendents, people
under the direction and supervision of management, who
are the people formed into committees in industry, and
who meet regularly to discuss the problems below the
management level.

(Take "D" follows.)

D-1

I do not wi:nt the ..mpresslon to be created
here that it is just management Itself that sits up in
its big of fic^ and directs all this, because it Is not.
Actually, the management of an industry may not have
very much to do with this, but it is their men, their
foremen, their superintendents all through the plant
who are checking and watching and doing this accident
prevention work. But, as I have said before, we
are still not satisfied that possibly some improvements
could not be made to it, and if that is possible,
particularly after we get our new building and have a
better opportunity to do the work, we are certainly
keeping it in mind.

Of course the thing that the hon. member for
St. Andrew (Mr .Salsberg) said about the results of
accidents, what effect they had on conditions already
existing, is a very difficult' situation. Mr. Justice Roach
dealt with that and I would like to correct my hon.
friend who spoke last on this question, who said v;e

"had dealt with everything but accident prevention." I ■
said, "That just about cleans up Mr. Justice Roach's
report," The report is a report from a Commission

and does not necessarily mean that everything that the
Commission mentions is correct in every detail.
After all, he was an individual, he did a very fine
job, and I certainly appreciate his suggestions
have meant much to this Board , but he could be wrong in
some respects.

Here is one of the difficulties that we have

D-2

felt In regard to this recommendation; that it. would
create far more injustices than it would remedy
If I had more time I would go a little more into detail
on this, but having in mind the practices of the pre-
sent Board;, which give a greater degree of justice to
a greater number of people, the practice being that where
some minor accident or accidents aggravate a pre-existing
condition, the Board orders payment for total disability
during the period the workman is temporarily totally
disabled or receiving medical treatment, and orders
payment for all necessary medical expenses^and should
there be some permanent disability resulting from the
said aggravation, the Board pensions the injured work-
man at 50 per cent of the total disability.

Me feel -- and we have given a lot of thought
to this -- that if Mr. Justice Reach's recommendation
in this respect were incorporated into law, it
would mean that employers would be responsible for the
total cost of total disability when such total disability
was the reaiilt of a physical condition, and you do
not have to think very hard to know what that would
mean -- that in a time of surplus employment no man
with such things as a minor case of diabetes, arthritis,
osteomyelitis, heart condition, etc. would ever get a
job.

Our object in administering this Act is to keep
people employed and we want the greatest care taken to
see that they are not injured and, if they are, we want
to see that they get the best treatment and the best

D-3

methods of rehabilltttlon and go back to work, but we
alSo have to use a measure of common sense to see
that those men because their condition might disclose
a bit of arthritis or a bit of diabetes would not be
refused employment by an employer who might say:
"We cannot take a chance on you. If you happen to
hit your hand and aggravate that diabetic condition,
I would be stuck for total disability." So I am sure
the hon. member can see that possibly we have dealt
with that even better than the Hon. Mr. Justice Roach
suggested.

In regard to heart conditions, I do not think
that we can at this moment accept the responsibility
for all coronaries that take place within the province
if the man happens to be working. There are a great
many people of whom it could be said that, although
they had a coronary because they were at work would
probably have had it had they not been at work, but
we do accept it in the case of fire fighters because
we realize the nature of their work and we do pay
for fire fighters.

The hon. member for St. Andrew (Mr .Salsberg)
was very insistent that we accept everything that Mr.
Justice Roach said. In regard to the 100 per cent, of
course,, Mr. Justice Roach said that the percentage of
compensation was most satisfactory and recommended no
change .

MR. SALSBERG: I differ.

MR. DALEY: I would have presumed you would have

D-4

accepted that.

MR. SALSBERG: No, I differ with the Justice
there .

MR. DALEY: Well, that is certainly your privi-
lege .

On Increasing the payments to those injured
in a period when the wages were very low, I am just
as , sympathetic as you are, and Mr. Justice Roach has
said in his report that it should in no way be the
responsibility of industry, but should be taken from
the Consolidated Revenue Fund. I said the other day
-- I thought I made it very clear -- that that was
Government policy and in assisting to administer the
VJorkmen's Compensation Board I am sympathetic to that
and I would like to see something done for those
people.

I think that about sums^ up my debate in con-
nection with this Act. I still say I think we have
a wonderful Act. I think this Government since 19^3
has done a tremendous job in improving its most im-
portant piece of legislation and I am sure that the
working people, the people it protects, are grateful
for it.

I presume, Mr. Speaker, from time to time we
will improve it as conditions and the desirability of
doing so present themselves to us . I would just
like tc say that at Malton, which we have spoken of
a great many times here -- in my opinion an out-

■'' ■ t flic. .. 1

vril

D-3

standing place -- th-t I would appreciate it if the
hon. members v.'ould be interested in accepting an
invitation any morning to go out there, and I would
be glad to arrange transportation to take the hon.
members out. We could leave here at eleven
o'clock, and have lunch out there and see the place,
and return in time for the afternoon session. If
you would get In touch with me so I will know if
of you are anxious to do that I would be glad to
make those arrangements .

Mr. Speaker, I move second reading of
Bill No. 80.

Motion agreed to: second reading of the Bill.

HEALTH OF LIVESTOCK
HON. D. PORTER (Attorney-General): Order
No. 60.

CLERK OP THE HOUSE: 60th Order, second reading
Bill No. 99, an Act respecting the Health of Livestock,

HON. T. L. KENNEDY (Minister of Agriculture):
Mr. Speaker, in presenting this Act I should like to
give a very short explanation. It is the first Act
we have had of this type in the Province of Ontario.
It gives us power to examine animals and if they are
not healthy not to allow them to go from one place in
the Province to another. This also applies to dressed
meat. The Act is designed in view of the tremendous
increase in community sales which have sprung up
in this Province in the last few years and also
gives us power to rep;ulate meat'. that riciy be

diseased once it gets into the Province of

D-6

Ontario.

Mr. Speaker, I ask that this Bill be sent down
to the Agricultural Committee and be reported back to
the House. I move second reading of the Bill.

Motion agreed to: second reading of the Bill.

HON. D. PORTER (iittorney General): Mr.
Speaker, I move the adjournment of the House.

HON. F. R. OLIVER {Leader of the Opposition):
Would my hon. friend indicate what will come up on
Monday?

MR. PORTER: I might remind the hon. member
(Mr. Oliver) that the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost),
mentioned yesterday afternoon in a general way what
would be taken up on Monday, and I have really nothing
to add to that as I have no further information.

What he said was that he would proceed with
some of the Government orders. I assume that those
will be second readings. I see we have a number of
second readings to be dealt with. He also stated
that we would be dealing with the Estimate relating
to the Provincial Secretary (Mr. Weish) and also
the Supplementary Estimates mentioned in the Budget.
He said he thought it desirable to proceed in that
way, and that he would be very happy to co-operate
with the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Oliver)
in connection with the Estimates, and will give notice
of what Estimates will bo taken up, so that he will have
the fullest opportunity of knowing the order of
business, and so on. That is the programme as far

sisyi'^qo-

-<j •

D-7

as I know.

MR. OLIVER: I will Just say to the hon.
Attorney General (Mr. Porter) that I think he will
appreciate the point, that it would be preferable and
more to the convenience of hon. members of the House
if we knew precisely what second readings were going
to be called.

MR. PORTER: I can go this far, and say
that I expect second reading of Bill 55, that is
Order 3I3 an Act to amend the Agricultural College
Act; Order 35j second reading of Bill 70, an Act to
amend the Power Commission Act; Order 51, second
reading of an Act to amend the Public Service Act.
I am sure that those will be proceeded with, because
it was intended to go on with those if we had had
time today. That will take a substantial part of
the time .

Motion agreed to.

The House adjourned at 3.22 of the clock, p.m.

ONTARIO

of il}t

Toronto, Ontario, February 21, 1952, et seq.

Volume XXIII

Monday, March 24, 1952.

HON. (Rev.) M. C. DAVIES, - Speaker.

'JR.. dl. j^turgeow,
Chief Hansard Reporter
Parliament Buildings
Toronto

A-1

TV/ENTY-THIRD DAY

PROCEEDINGS

of the

FIRST SESSION OF THE WENT Y- FOURTH LEGISLATURE, HELD
IN THE PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS, TORONTO, ONTARIO, ON
THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 21st, 1952, et seq.

Hon, (Rev.) M. G. Davies, Speaker,

Presiding.

Toronto, Ontario,
Monday, March 24, 1952.

The House having met.

Prayers.

Mr. Downer in the Chair,

3 o'clock p.m.

MR. SPEAKER: Presenting petitions.
Reading and receiving petitions.
Presenting reports by Committees.
MR. T. L. PATRICK (Middlesex North): Mr.
eaker, I beg to present the first report of the
Standing Committee on Agriculture and Colonization,

A~2

and move i'os adoption.

THE CLERK -ASSISTANT: Mr. Patrick from the
Committee on Agriculture and Colonization begs leave
to present the Com:niittee's first report as f:illows.

Your Committee begs to report the following
Bill without amendment.

Livestock,

Bill No- 99, An Act Respecting the Health of

>

All of Tshich is respectfully submitted.

(Sgd.) T. L. Patrick,
Chairman.

Motion agreed to,

im. SPEAKER: Motions.

Introducvion of Bills.

HON. GEO. H. CHALLIES (Minister without
Portfolio) moves firvSt reading of Bill intituled, "An
Act to Amend the Rural Telephone Systems Act, 1951."

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill.

He said: Mr. Speaker, the Commission has been
investigating the possibility of increased use of its
rural distribution lines for carrying telephone cir-
cuits. It has been decided that joint use of Hydro
lines should be encoursiged as a means of preventing
and eliminating dur^lication of pole lines by local
systems.

:'v.c?r

f.^t':i etc ■•'Xt-iaiitKioO saJi ,
Gix .ib vcu bssBaTOtrr-.. '^

■■■' r;,^-'r';:^i^.V3'jq-:'Jo .§nji92! la;

A-3

Naturally, careful consideration will be
given to all factors involved in joint use with Hydro
on power line poles and only where power and telephone
circuits can be co-ordinated satisfactorily will
joint use be permitted.

It is estimated that from B5% to 90^ of the
poles of rural independent telephone systems carry
only one circuit of two wires. Under such circumstances
joint use of hydro poles can be of tremendous assistance.

This Bill provides that the Commission may
enter into contracts with these independent companies
for the joint use of poles at a materially reduced
rate. The rate for a single circuit of two wires
was 50 cents per pole. It is now reduced to 10 cents.
Where there are hook-in attachments, it was formerly
one dollar; it is now fifteen cents,

MR. FARQUHAR OLIVER (Leader of the Opposition):
Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. Minister (Mr. Challies)
if up to the present the Commission has issued any
prohibitions?

MR. CHALLIES: No.

MR. OLIVER: Have they been used in some
instances?

IIR, CHALLIES: To some extent, but not very
much. However, owing to the development of hydro in

\ :iy.

'V .5 to

"i _ 5 tr?f> •^>» e

A-4

the last two years, it has been thought 'desirable to
encourage the rural people to use these lines, rather
than have two lines along the same road.

HON. GEO. H. CHaLLIES (Minister without
Portfolio) moves first reading of Bill intituled, "An
Act to Amend the Power Commission Act."

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill.

He said: Mr. Speaker, this Bill is comple-
mentary to the Bill introduced by the Hon. Minister of
Municipal Affairs (Mr. Dunbar) and provides for granting
to the municipalities annual payments in lieu of taxes
for services rendered.

HON. McKINNON PHILLIPS (Minister of Health)
moves first reading of Bill intituled, "An Act to Amend
the Medical Act".

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill.

MR. F. OLIVER (Leader of the Opposition ): Mr.

Speaker, may I ask the Hon. Minister (Mr, Phillips) to
explain.

T5R. PHILLIPS: Mr. Speaker, Ontario is fast
becoming a place v;here there are being given post-graduate
studies to students, not only from Canada, but also
from the United States and, in fact, from all over the
world. We feel we should encourage this. This amend-

(r.r

:iiir

'(ibmM}tf&

'^'ii'--''.'-;r'-'"ra k

A-5

ment simply grants to post-graduate students the right
to practise medicine within the hospital where they
are taking their post-graduate work, with the same
privileges of those practising outside the hospital.
That is, it will give them the right to sign birth
certificates, death Certificates, and prescribe nar-
cotics where necessary.

HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister) moves first
reading of Bill intituled, "An Act to Amend the Succes-
sion Duties Act",

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill,

He said: Mr. Speaker, this Bill provides for
an exemption to educational organizations carrying on
work across Canada. At the present time, it is limited
to Ontario, It also increases the amount which an
insurance company may pay on policies without the consent
of the Treasurer. This is limited at the present time
to -iplBDO, It is now intended to approve the payments
under pension plans which, I believe, amounts to $1200
at the present time.

HON. L. M. FROST {Prime Minister): moves
first reading of Bill intituled, "An Act to Amend the
Devolution of Estates Act".

;io

■jii-..

oiJn9xin,>-. .

A-6

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill.

He' said; Mr. Speaker, this is just a routine
matter which may be discussed on second reading. It
removes from the Devolution of Estates Act provisions
which were repealed from the Registry Act and the Land
Titles Act some years ago,' and which are no longer

required.

HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister) moves

first reading of Bill intituled, "An Act to Amend the

Securities Transfer Tax Act".

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill.

He said: Mr. Speaker, this Bill is routine.
It does not increase any taxes, nor extend them. It
clarifies the classes of transactions to which the tax
applies. It merely enacts into the Statutes the prac-
tices of the Securities Tax Branch for some time past.

HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minisber) moves first
reading of Bill intituled, "An Act tc Amend the Law
Stamps Act".

Motion agreed to; first reading of the Bill.

He said: Kr. Speaker, this is also routine.
There are some cases, I am glad to say, where corpora-
tions, in particular, pay us as high as five hundred

* -- ' -

■■.'■'■-I',-.-;.'-';,-' '-f ■- - ; ^! ;' t '•;'"

A-7

dollars, and more, for law stamps, and this amendment
provides that instead of adding a stamp to each docu-
ments as it is filed, the certificate of the Treasurer
may be attached, which relieves taxpayers of that
particular duty, Ve like to make payments of taxes
easy and pleasant,

HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister) moves
first reading of Bill intituled, "An Act to Amend the
Corporations Tax Act."

Motion agred to; first reading of the Bill.

He said: Mr. Speaker, this Bill is oree of
considerable importance to which I referred in the
Budget Address on Thursday last.

This Act brings into the Ontario Act the
provision for depreciation in connection with corpora-
tions, as applies in the Federal Act, for the purpose
of simplification, and it means the assessing work
will be very much easier.

The second point refers to the matter of
allocation of profits. As the hon, members may know,
the Province does not tax a corporation on all the
profits made by the company, but an allocation is
made of such profits as arise in Ontario, a different

rdJ c...

iG f.

98X1..

A-8

method being adopted In connection with profits arising
elsewhere. Generally, they are exempt. The purpose
of this is to make certain the new provisions will
apply under the new Federal Act which will impose a
five percent tax, which was previously imposed by the
agreeing provinces, and it makes sure that profits
arising from outside of Ontario are not taxed by us.
If it were not for the allocation, our taxing field
would be very, very much broader, and would involve
a great part of the corporation tax in Canada. Our
tax applies only to those profits which arise from
business done vdthin the Province of Ontario,

MR. SPEAKER: Orders of t he day.

HON. DANA PORTER (Attorney-General): Mr.
Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, there is a
matter upon which I think the hon. members of the
House will agree some comment should be made.

I am sure every hon. member of t his House

has heard with profound regret the news of the death

of Sgt. of Detectives Edmund Tong, of the Toronto

Police.

"Tong was born in Leeds, Yorkshire, 47 years ago, and
came to Canada in 1926. He joined the Toronto police
force on September 16, 1929, and was assigned to uniform
duty at Claremont S-^;, Station. But his excellent police
work rapidly drew him to the attention of senior officers,
and in 1933 he was transferred to the detective office
at headquarters.

From that time on, his career really started. His
cases and arrests read like a rogue's gallery, with
almost every prominent criminal listed."

(Take "B" Follows)

■■■>[':

■.••1

t ..--,

B-1

Murders", holdups, shootings, big robberies, Tong got
them all. He cultivated underworld contacts and was
known by criminals everyv/here. Oddly enough, though
many criminals feared and hated him, others admired and
respected him.

For Iddie Tong v/as fair. He never lost his
head or used bad judgment. He v/as kind and considerate
to those who deserved it. He Vv^as hard and tough with
others — those who usually ended up in Kingston
Penitentiary,

To his brother officers there was no one quite
like affable Eddie Tong,

In his career, first as a partner to his
lifelong friend, Insp. John Nimmo, and later to Sgt.
Perry, he worked on every major crime in the Toronto
area. Bank bandits were his specialty and in the past
few years he helped crack two organizations, the Polka
Dot Gang and the Numbers Gang, On the trail of another
bank suspect, V/illiam (Skippy) Miller, last September,
he caught his man after a 7,000-mile sleuthing job
through the underworlds of New York, Buffalo, V/innipeg,
Chicago and Minneapolis,

His death was the finish of a celebrated
career. The final chapter began last March 6 v/hen Tong
and Perry vv'ere assigned to crack yet another bank hold-
up, this one at the Bank of Montreal branch at College
and Manning Avenue, in which -(^24,000. was taken.

He and Perry stopped a car about which they
were suspicious at the corner of Lansdowne Avenue and
College Street. Tong stepped from the police car and
v/as shot down. Before he lapsed into unconsciousness
he told a witness that he thought he recognized the
gunmen ,

While he lay in critical condition in
hospital, a manhunt swung into action. The next day,
.March 7, Suchan was shot and captured in a Montreal
apartment, Jackson v/as shot and caught in a gun

B-8

battle in Montreal four days later. Then, last
Saturday, the alleged mastermind of the bank holdups,
Edwin Boyd, was caught in Toronto,

Tong had been mortally wounded by a .45
calibre bullet that ripped through both lungs. But
during the ensuing days, hopes were held for his
recovery. Although it v/as never actually admitted,
doctors doubted that even if he had lived he v/ould have
been able to walk.

Tong suffered a relapse on Saturday night and
the crisis was reached at 12:21 a.m. on Sunday, In two
minutes he was dead as a blood clot reached his heart.
Mrs. Tong v/as not at his bedside."

And so ended the life of a gallant officer.
His life and his death represent the courage and the
hazards and the personal qualities that are the foun-
dation of the great force of Police upon whom we depend
for protection and enforcement of the law.

HON. G. A. YfELSh (Provincial Secretary): Mr.
Speaker, I beg leave to present to the House, the
following:

"The tv/entieth annual report of the Department
of Public Welfare for the fiscal year 1950-51,"

MR. W. MURDOCH (Sssex South): Lir. Speaker,

before the Orders of the Day, I v/lsh to bring a matter

of urgent importance to the attention of this House,

v7e have read in the newspapers of the severe damage

being caused by the present high water in Lake Ontario

and in Lake Erie, Hundreds of miles of shoreline

B-3

have been affected, causing untold damage and severe
hardship.. I am n9t going to refer to any of those
conditions except those which affect my own particular
riding of Essex South. During the v/eekend, a severe
gale caused the highest level of Lake Erie in history,
and at Point Pelee, eleven hundred acres of fine onion
land, including the homes of some fifty-eight families,
have been entirely inundated. The v/ater of Lake Erie
poured in over a municipal road which acts also as a
protective dike and all this water vvdll now have to be
pumped out and bridges and roads repaired. On Saturday
and Sunday, every available truck v/as pressed into
service and gravel hauled to stop the water. This quick
action on the part of the township council averted a
situation which could have been much more serious.
Hundreds of cottages and permanent homes in Essex County
have been either partially or totally destroyed. I
have photographs here, which were taken yesterday, and which,
no doubt, v;ill be published in the V/indsor Daily Star
giving an indication of what has taken place.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I do not know what can
be done but I believe It is my duty to report this
serious situation to the hon. members of the Legis-
lature.

MR. A. J. CHILD (Wentworth): Ivlr. Speaker,

B-4

I v/ould like to add a v/ord or two to what the hon,
member for Essex South (Mr. Murdoch) has said regarding
lakeshore erosion.

The shore in my riding is largely bulllt
with permanent homes, v;e have a number of small cottages
as well as a large shoreline of fruit land. In some
cases, over the weekend, during the recent storm,
farmers lost as much as fifteen feet of their fruit
orchards. However, the serious damage was done to our
permanent homes. At one beach, Crescent Beach, we had
to vacate a number of our families, it became so serious.
It was necessary for us to call out the Army and the
Red Cross for assistance, and thanks to these
Organizations and to the efforts of the deputy-reeve
of the township, Mrs. Kineer, a disaster was averted.
Fortunately, due to the quick thinking of these Organi-
zations and I£rs. Kineer, v/e did not have the loss of
any life. There was one emergency case of a baby we
had to rush to hospital,

Mr. Speaker, I do not know the answer to
lakeshore erosion, but I do knov/ that these people need
help and they need it now. The hopes of these people
rest on our shoulders here in Toronto to impress on
Ottawa the necessity of assuming responsibility for
this situation. If there is anything that we can do

yi--:!.^ ■rt0i\

■^' ^-dAi^rm

B-5

here to expedite the matter, I know we will, to relieve
these people to some extent.

IvIR. J". B. SALSBERG (St. Andrew): Mr. Speaker,
in view of the seriousness of the situation, I vms
going to ask Vi/'hether the Government would not think it
urgent enough to arrange for an emergency meeting with
the Ottawa authorities, to take up the matter of
immediately helping the people who suffered and also
some long-range action to prevent this happening in
the future?

HON. LESLIE i.I. FROST (Prime Minister): llr.
Speaker, the answeisto these questions, of course, are
not simple. I have been concerned in the last fev/
weeks, as have all hon. members of this House, with the
lakeshore situation, particularly as it affects Lake
Ontario and Lake Erie. Perhaps in answering the
questions, I might just give a little outline of the
problem.

First of all, it must be remembered the
lakeshore erosion problem is one that has been with us
for generations. The lakeshore situation varies from
time to time. There are hon. members in this House who
will recall a few years ago, I think back to
about 1935, 1936 and 1937, when there was some fear
that the lakes v/ere actually receding. There v;as some

esi: Ts

B-6

talk at that time about the v;ater which was taken by
the Chicago Drainage Canal lowering the level of
the lake. In some cases, it was seriously advanced in
an article in one of the papers, some fourteen or fifteen
years ago, . It was argued that the shores of the
lake were gradually being tilted up by the bonding of
the earth's crust and that v/as causing a lowering of
the water and a raising of the shore levels. We know
nov/ that is quite incorrect, but, nevertheless, if you
go back to about 1904 or 1905, there was one of these
cycles and the level of the St. Lawrence River was
£0 low that in order to continue navigation, the
Federal Government had to take steps in order to keep
the stream open , and to divert the water, so it would keep
the water high for navigation purposes.

Hon. members will have noticed in the Press
that some of the American interests claim that is the
cause of the flooding on Lake Ontario. V/hether it is
or not, I am not qualified to say, but I cite that to
point out the fact we have cycles of high water and
cycles of low water and It may be that at the moment,
we are at the peak of one of these cyles. Perhaps in
half a dozen years we may have questions asked here
about the low levels of these same lakes. We have had
that difficulty before. . , '

B-7

The hon. member for Sssex South j (Mr. Murdoch)
will recall that in the St. Clair River, at times, it
has been necessary to tie up shipping in order to
wait until there is sufficient water accumulated to
allow the ships to pass through in the channels. Of
course, there is nothing of that sort now, The reverse
is the situation.

First of all, these are international waters,
they are boundary waters, controlled by the International
Joint V/aterways Commission, jointly appointed by Canada
and the United States. As far as the province is con-
cerned, when erosion takes place on our shores, we have
no control of the water levels. It is very questionable
and debatable as to what control v/e have at all over
the condition. However, we will be glad if we can
effectively find a way of dealing with the situation.
If we could do so, we would,

Mr. Speaker, I will give you some figures
that perhaps will enlighten hon. members as regards
the lake levels. One of the great problems in the
erosion problem or the erosion situation is to put in
works along the lakefront that have no bearing at all,
if the water goes up a foot or so. In other words,
if we v/ere able to control the v/ater levels, and
knew the variation would be perhaps six inches or a

:i z:ubX^

sdi .:■

B-8

foot, all right, but we have here v/ater levels which
rise, in some cases, three and four feet. For reasons
which are very largely unexplainable , except by reason
of the fact there is a cycle of high water, you can
quite readily see if protective v/orks are installed on
the shores, and then there is a great rise in the water
of the lake, these protective works are just washed away
and become of very little value. That can be seen at
Toronto Island at the present time v/here protective works
have been installed and where permanent sidewalks and
things of that sort are simply destroyed and v/ashed away,
and the money that has been invested in them is lost. I
do not doubt that the hon. member for V/entv/orth (Mr. Child)
has himself seen works that were supposed to go on
forever disappear' because of the high water. This
shows you the difficulty of doing anything, much as we
would like to help.

That, I think, is the first-line problem which
has to be faced, the problem of making arrangements for
the control of v/ater levels which will permit permanent
protective works. It is not so long ago that we entered
into a transaction in connection with a highway in
Kent County, and I have been waiting to hear that these
works have been washed away. I suppose they are still
there -- I hope they are -- and everything is all

B-9

right but between the Federal Government, the municipal-
ities and ourselves, a great deal of money was invested,
and I hope the -work is not washed av;ay. If it has disappeared,
it is another example of the difficulty of the province
in dealing in any way v/ith the problem. It is something
like King Canute who sat on the shores and ordered the
waves back. There is not much v/e can do,

I will refer to the head of ^ the lakes, and give
you one or two examples of what is taking place.
A few years ago the low levels in lakes were attributable
to the Chicago Drainage Canal, which at that time was
taking about sixty-five or seventy-five cubic feet a
second and diverting the water into the Mississippi System.
Here a few years ago, it would be in the late 1930 's,
arrangements were made to divert a portion of two rivers
in northern Ontario into Lake Superior. They were the
Ogoki and Long Lac emptying into Lake Superior. Nov/
the amount of the diversion amounts to four thousand
cubic feet a second into Lake Superior. We have not had
any complaints to date about the level of that lake.
Probably some hon. member opposite from the head of
the lakes v;ill now say that the water levels in Lake
Superior are very high, but, in any event, insofar as
I am aware, I have heard of no complaint in connection
with Lake Superior levels.

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B-10

When we get down to the Huron level, the
Michigan level, in other words, the Chicago Drainage
Canal, is on the same level as the waters at Windsor.
Roughly speaking, except for some slight fall in the
St. Clair River, they are generally the same. The
Chicago Drainage Canal is now taking about thirty-four
hundred cubic feet a second and at the present time,
the Ogoki and Long Lac diversions of the lake are putting
in three thousand, four hundred and seventy-two cubic
feet a second so one really cancels the other.. That
is the way it has been working out for the past ten
years. I do not think the diversion in Lake Superior
makes any difference to the v/ater levels on the Lake
Huron-Michigan level, because of the fact there is a
diversion of an equivalent amount from the Chicago
Drainage Canal. Coming down to Lake Erie, we find this;
we have there a lake which is in the state of nature
as far as the flowage of the water is concerned. I
do not .think there are any works that impede the flow
of that lake. On the Niagara River, there are some
things which stimulate the flov/. First of all, there
is the DeCew diversion; particularly at this time of
year, the upp> cf tho Welland Canal for the purposes
of diverting water down to DeCew Falls is developed
by the Hydro-Electric Power Commission. That is an

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B-11

entirely nev/ diversion and if Lake Srie were lower, of
course, that diversion would be blamed for the fact that
the -lake was low. As it happens, Lake Erie is higher
than that diversion. I do not think there is an
obstruction in the Niagara River v/hich prevents the flow
of the water as freely as it did when Columbus discovered
America but in addition to that, there is the power
canal which was built in the 1920 's, which is taking
out twenty thousand cubic feet a second, V/e are now
digging another hole away undergroundwhlch will take
off more, so I think we can say in 1952, there is a
freer f low.^ of water from Lake IHrie than there has ever
been.

Vfhen we get to Lake Ontario, it is a different
story. When you get down there, you have a freer flow
of water -"rom Lake Erie into Lake Ontario, and the
waters are high again in Lake Ontario. It is our belief
that the St. Lawrence V/ater^vay will very much assist
that, for the reason that the St. Lawrence River
presently comes down a rather treacherous channel
in some cases. In the St. Lawrence, there are rocks and
reefs which change the current of the river end prevent
the free flow and there i s in that river, a diversion
which the Federal Government placed there in 1904. The
St. Lawrence V/atenftray should correct that situation

i iHf^

B-12

because quite a considerable part of t he expense in-
volved is in connection with clearing out the river
channel, so there will be a freer flow.

In the vicinity of Prescott or Cornwall, a big
dam will be located and one would imagine — I say
that as a layman — that the level of the lake will
be somewhat lower than it is at the present time. It
should be possible with the St. Lawrence Waterway, to
more effectively control levels of Lake Ontario.
In connection with the lake, I have some
figures here. In 1952, the lake level is 248.19 feet.
The low level in 1934. that is when the lake was going
to dry up, t least, editors and others were certain of
that, it went down to 242.5 feet, that is about six and
a half to seven feet difference. The average over the
years that are recorded since 1870 amount to about
245»8, 30 it would appear that the lake at the present
time, is about two and a half feet above the average.
Of course, two and a half feet of water is a very
considerable amount and a very considerable force.
If the two and a half feet were removed, I imagine
there would be no difficulty at the Island and very
little erosion difficulty.

I would like to make reference to what
the hon. member for V/entworth (Mr. Child) mentioned.

'if} v., £'.

B-13

I might refer you to the Budget Speech of last Thursday
when I said the problem of Great Lakes water levels
and erosion on the Great Lakes has been a matter of
grave concern to the Government. The province has no
control of the Great Lakes water levels. That is an
international problem concerning the Government of
Canada and the United States. The erosion control
should be properly the problem of these Governments
and we are ever urging a joint conference between the
representatives of the Governments of Canada and the
United States, with our province and those interested
municipalities, in order that a^ survey of the whole
matter be made with steps to control the Great Lakes
water levels to prevent damage that is taking place on
our shores, V/e have been studying that problem for some
time past. We have had a great deal of information, and
inany sugrestions have been made relative to controlling
the water levels. In giving consideration to this
problem, we feel that perhaps the best method of
studying the problem would be to refer it to a Committee
of the House and let the hon. members themselves learn of
the problems, hear the engineers and learn what Is
being done. By that method, it would give publicity
to the matter. I think that publicity in bringing
the problem to the fore will mean more will be done

B-14

to draw these parties together, whether it be the
International Joint T/Vaterv/ays Commission or whatever it
may be. With this situation in Lake Ontario, 'I think the
problem is worse for the American people than it is
for us for th.e reason that the prevailing wind for
them is west and north-west and probably beats upoon
their shores. Our problem comes about when we have an
east wind as we had the other day, but fortunately
east winds are not so prevalent here. We have only one
occasionally,

I had in mind referring this problem first
of all to the Committee on Commissions and the Hydro-
Electric Power Commission will be making the explanation
of its stewardship to this Committee in a few days.
That may be a good place to have the matter aired in
the first instance and if it appears necessary then, I
should say a committee of nine or ten hon. meoibers
who can sit throughout the spring and summer and
thoroughly go into all the angles of the problem,
I think that v;ould give the House and the public
valuable information, and would enable us to urge
such steps as are doomed proper, under all the cir-
cumstances, be taken,

17e have on hand a good deal of inform.ation
from our own engineers. V.'e have the reports of the

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B-15

hydraulic engineers who have studied the St. Lawrence
Seeway problem. The great problem, of course, in
referring a matter Involving so many problems, to a
few engineers is that the people never understand
what is taking place, and they become dissatisfied and
perhaps they feel their affairs are not being given
consideration and attention.

(TAKE "C" FOLLOWS)

C-1

If we refer it to the Committee I have men-
tioned, that will provide all hon. members of the House
and the public with all the information we have, and
we can make sure we are on the right track.

MR. SALSBERG: What about financial assistance
to those who now suffer.

Iffi. FROST: The hon. member is always free
in spending somebody else's money. The problem is,
strictly speaking, not an Ontario problem. You can
have an expenditure of many millions of dollars -- and

we may be justified in spending that in some circumstances
— but the matter will have to be carefully considered.
In the Budget, as hon. members will remember, we set
aside sixteen million dollars for conservation; that
is, across the land area of the province of Ontario,
Frankly, I would like to see that very much increased.
While I want to protect our people f rom t he effects
of the lakeshore erosion, I do not want to assume a burden
if I can avoid it, which belongs to somebody else, I
think we should be spending these sums of money on
something which properly belongs to our people. How-
ever, that does not preclude the possibility that
after a joint conference, some type of joint action

C-2

may be found for protection along our waterfront, but
I would like to sit in with the people whom I always
felt had the responsibility in this matter, to see what
could be done, first of all. I think that is the
sensible thing to do. At the moment, I do not think
we should commence some work without having the proper
knowledge, and not having any control over the waters,
and then perhaps have the work which may cost hundreds

of thousands of dollars obliterated. That does not
seem to be reasonable ot sensible,

I think the studies I have suggested would
bring this matter to the fore.

M, F, OLIVER (Leader of the Opposition):
Mr, Speaker, I believe that the hon. members and the
public generally appreciate the position of the Govern-
ment generally in regard to this problem, and we will
accept the Hon. Prime Minister's suggestion, that we
actively concern ourselves with preparing our case,
the case for the Province of Ontario, to be presented
to whatever Board has authority in this respect. I
agree with the Hon. Minister, Mr. Speaker, that the
lakes and rivers are not within the control of the
Province of Ontario. They are governed by nature,

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I suppose, in the first instance, but physically by
the authorities of the Dominion Government and the
United States, through the International Joint Water-
ways Commission.

The point I want to make, Mr, Speaker, is
that we can say in this Province it is not our concern
financially, but, on the other hand, it is our property
which is being damaged; it is our people who are being
put out of their homes, and it is our land which is
being washed away by the action of the waves from
ghis lakeshore erosion, and we cannot sit idly by,
as we face this tremendous problem,

I want to agree with the Hon. Prime Minister,
that, in my judgment, the thing for us to do in this
Province is to prepare our case in the very best way
we can, and then having prepared our case, present it
to those in authority. I, for one, believe if we
show we are in earnest, and we can convince them of
the great damage which has been done, and which is
likely to be done in the future, that we will receive
a hearing, and will be able to work out from that a
solution, financial and otherwise to this very vexaticur
problem.

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C-4

MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day.

HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr.
Speaker, I move that you do now leave the Chair, and
the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply,

Motion agreed to; the House in Committee of
Supply; Mr. Downer in the Chair,

(Page C-5 follows)

C-5

HON. A. WELSH (Provincial Secretary): Mr.
Chairman, in introducing the Estimates for the Depart-
ment of the Provincial Secretary, may I say that I
appreciate having this opportunity of speaking, and I
would crave your indulgence for a time, in order to
make a report of the progress of civil defence in
Ontario,

I may say that we are fortunate to-day in
having with us Ma jor-General V/orthington, the Co-
ordinator of Civil Defence for the Dominion, and we
are very glad, indeed, to have him with us to-day,
I regret that the international situation has hot
cleared appreciably, and the necessity of preparing
our people to meet an atomic air attack is not the
happiest of tasks, but, nevertheless, a very necessary
one. This nation to-day is in grave danger, and an
effective program of civil defence organization and
education is a necessity.

The civil defence organization which may
be established for the province of Ontario, or. Indeed,
in Canada, may function just as effectively as
a disaster organization, as it would in the event
of a national emergency. In war, the armed forces

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C-6

cannot win without industrial production, and produc-
tion cannot be assured without civilian defence, as
oar industrial centres are the target of attack, and
if such an attack comes, vast numbers of casualties
and disruption of production are inevitable.

If the public of this Province is informed,
organized and trained, this Province can cope with
disaster, and our production can be maintained. On
the other hand, an uninformed, untrained, and unor-
ganized population would be so stunned by an attack,
that chaos would be inevitable, and production would
come to an end, and it might be that even our will
to fight would be destroyed.

Civil defence is not a military matter, but
a civic responsibility. The primary job of the armed
forces is to meet and defeat the enemy on sea, land,
and in the air, and in spite of all we can expect
of them, undoubtedly some enemy aircraft will penetrate
out defences, and bombs do not discriminate between
soldiers and civilians. In that event, a civil defence
agency must be prepared to take over, to minimize
casualties and restore production. This is a job for
all our people, and how well we function may well decide

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C-7

whether we survive or not, as a nation.

Mr, Chairman, I would like to take a few
moments to give the hon. members of this House the
genesis of what has been jointly done, to date.

^.'Je have done in Canada, and particularly in
Ontario, what we could to meet this problem, and I
would like to give the hon. members of this House the
outline of the plan on which both the provinces and
the Federal Government are proceeding.

At a joint meeting in Ottawa the unanimous
decision was made that civil defence organization and
training was primarily a matter for the municipalities,
with the Provinces and Federal Governments co-ordinating
and assisting, and that the initial responsibility for
organization and training fell on the elected represent-
atives of the municipality. I am firmly convinced that
success can only be achieved if every one of us joins
with his neighbours in the old pioneering spirit to
work for a common object for the general good, in this
case to save not only our own lives and homes, but also
those of our neighbours.

Unfortunately we have in Ontario the majority
of the potential targets in Canada, These target areas
require a different type of organization from the smaller

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C-S

towns and from rural centres, as their role would be
in the welfare field, and in providing mutual aid.

Much of the organization work has been c om-
pleted, and we are now embarking on the second or
training phase. As each area completes its basic
organization, training schools are established and
key personnel trained. I would like to emphasize that
in the opinion of the Government, Civil Defence must
be a grass roots organization, a voluntary banding
together of men and women, of good citizens, to work
together for a communal goal.

Such organizations have been established in
all 29 cities of Ontario, in 101 towns, and 22 villages,
their basis organization completed, and now embarked
on training programmes.

We assist their work by providing them with
training aides, manuals, instructors, the necessary
standard syllabi, films, technical instruction in
A. B.C. warfare and assist them in setting up the
necessary training schools. In the Civil Defence Branch
we have six highly qualified people only, who are
enthusiastic and energetic and interested in the •
problems of the municipalities. Within the last few
months these m.en — and there are actually only four

c-9

of these available for use in the field — have
assisted 7^ cities and towns in establishing the
necessary schools; 4^0,000 copies of one manual alone
have been distributed; 35,000 copies of another at
the Exhibition where 200,000 people viewed the display
which was built, staffed and operated by our staff.
During January and February our training films were
used in 42 civil defence courses.

Concentration on the training of a nucleus of

key personnel is vital, a nucleus that will be capable
of expansion rapidly in the event of an emergency. I
may say, Mr, Chairman, that the display which was
shown at the Exhibition, was entirely prepared by
my own staff, and manned by them, I think this is
the first one of its kind ever shown in the world.

One example is the steps taken by the Hydro-
Electric Power Commission, which now has 150 trained
instructors available, and our school at the Old
Christie Street Hospital is being used by classes of
50 for each course. Training material is secured
through the Federal Government, and distributed by
the Province for training purposes. For example, ten
thousand respirators, 300 pumps, 12,500 steel helmets,
and other material has been made available or distribute.

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C-10

for training to the municipalities,

I would like here to pay tribute to those
two splendid organizations, the Red Cross and the St,
Johns' Ambulance, who are training all civil defence
workers in basic first aid. Those who are being
trained are from our own Government service in the
Province of Ontario, which includes the Provincial
Police, the employees of the Department of Lands and
Forests, and the employees of the Department of High-

ways.

I may say that I attended recently a con-

ference at Ottawa w.^th the Hon. llr. Martin, the Minister
of Health and Welfare in the Federal Government, and I
suggested this training should be extended to every
defence worker in Canada, and that the Federal Govern-
ment should give the grant to these organizations for
training the people, in excess of their normal require-
ments, I am very glad to say that they agreed to
that, and I think it should be a matter of very great
pride to the Federal Government that they were willing
to co-operate with the Province, in trying to do their
job, and with the organizations which are doing such a
splendid job for the people of the Dominion of Canada,

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C-11

Another activity of major importance is the
refresher courses now being run across Ontario for
graduate nurses, both active and retired, in A, B.C.
warfare. By the end of the year 10,000 nurses will
have taken this course; 2& of these courses are
actually operating now by the Ontario Department of
Health, the Federal authorities, and the Nurses
Association. Our Department of health has provided
one of their health nursing supervisors to undertkke
this programme. The Red Gross are expanding the home
nursing to include various aspects of A. B.C. training.

Medical officers and other medical personnel
have taken special courses in Canada and United States
on this subject, and are now planning courses for
first aid station personnel to staff them.

{Page C-12follows)

C-12

In overall health services we have provincially
an advisory Committee composed of Department of Health,
Ontario Medical Association, Ontario Hospital Associa-
tion, the Ontario Red Cro-ss, Registered Nurses Associa-
tion, and the St. John's Ambulance. Pertinent informa-
tion is compiled, health service manuals as a guide for
municipalities and hospitals are distributed, standard
hospitals kits are prepared and distributed. The stock
piling of essential drugs is being done by t he Federal
Department of Health.

Now, Mr. Chairman, we have also made progress
in the establishment of an effective warning system
which will alert our civil defence force in a 11 possible
target areas. \^e have the advantage of distance which
must be covered by enemy aircraft before vital target
areas are reached. In cooperating with the RCAF Ground
Observer Corps, we will have warning of approaching
aircraft, and the alert will be sent to all t arget
areas by a special telephone warning system which is
presently being installed. This system will link our .
Provincial Civil Defence Headquarters with our civil
defence organizations in the various target areas.

This headquarters will have radio and special
telephone communication with the RCAF filter stations
which will be located strategically along a belt across
the Northern section of Ontario. Assisting the RCAF
in spotting aircraft will be employees of the Department
of Lands and Forests, the HEPC and the Ontario Northland
Railway.. These employees will be specially trained in

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spotting aircraft and will flash by radio to RCAP
filter stations energy aircraft. Enemy a ircraft picked
up by radar will also be flashed to the Provincial
Civil Defence Headquarters.

I might say, Mr. Chairman, that the radio and
aircraft facilities of the Department of Lands and
Forests have been placed at the disposal of the Civil
Defence Force. These facilities will not only be
operating in the warning system, but cooperating with
the Department in plans for relief of an area which
may be bombed. Emergency supplies, particularly
drugs and medicines, can be moved quickly to a
stricken area by the aircraft of the Department which
will be in radio communication with our Provincial
Headquarters.

(Take "D" Follows)

D-1

Another important aspect of any civil defence
set-up is the fire fighting forces and facilities,
I need not stress this to the House, as I am sure all
are aware of the potential damage and casualties
that would result from an atomic bomb, fire, blast,
fragmentation over wide areas. This problem was
appreciated as early as 1949, when the Fire Departments
Act was amended to provide increased grants to municipal-
ities for the provision of equipment, $5,000,000,
has been paid since then, and an increase of 30% in
fire equipment has resulted. In three years 156 new
pumpers have been added, 63 in entirely new areas, 54
pieces of obsolete equipment replaced.

Now, Mr. Chairman, in addition to this program,
we have also done something about another problem
which has plagued our fire fighting system throughout
the Province for a great many years, and that is the
problem of standardizing equipment, particularly hose
connections and couplings, so that one municipality
may interchange its equipment with another should a
disaster take place.

This Government regarded this problem as one
requiring urgent solution and vital to our Civil Defence.
Some 18 months ago we approached the Federal Authorities
with a plan to do something about it, and after a great
deal of negotiation, an- arrangement which would benefit
all Provinces was developed.

Under this arrangement the Federal Government agreed
to pay one third of the cost and the Province two-thirds.

or; a ".

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D-2

l;Vhen the detail was worked out, we were the first
Province in Canada to make an agreement of this kind
vidth Ottawa, and I am happy to report to hon* members
that our standardization program is now underway.

The estimated total cost of this program is
|900,000 with as I mentioned before, the Federal
Government paying one-third and the Ontaiio Government
two-thirds. The contract to supply the necessary
equipment has been signed and conversion will begin
in the field by next month.

We are indeed grateful to the Department of
National Defence for making available several mobile
workshops vathout cost to Ontario to assist in this

work.

The program will include not only s^tandardization
of equipment owned by the municipalities but also the

equipment presently in use by industry.

There will be no cost to the local municipalities

or to industry other than having their employees assist

the provincial teams. These conversion field teams

will be under the direction of the Ontario Fire Marshal's

Office. They will start in municipalities in York and

Peel Counties, and then at Windsor, moving eastward until

all of Southern Ontario is standardized. These teams

will then move in Northern Ontario to complete the

conversion for the Whole Province. It is expected the

whole program will be completed by t he end of next year.

Conversion will take place in 362 municipalities

D-3

or approximately 70 percent of the hose and hydrant
facilities in the Province* All cities will be effected
except Toronto and its suburbs, and Peterborough
which are now on standard. Some 48 smaller communit-
ies are also on standard.

y/hen completed the program will make possible
effective mutual aid and cooperation between municipal
fire departments in all parts of the Province. As
hon. members will realize, this will greatly strengthen
our civil defence organization and I might add that
with standardization the normal operating costs to
municipal fire departments will be materially reduced.

And now, Mr. Chairman, I would like to take
a few minutes to tell the hon. members what we are
doing to prepare an effective fire fighting organiza-
tion throughout the Province. This is a specialized
job, requiring a great deal of specific information
and knowledge of the techniques of fire fighting
after an enemy air attack. For that reason this job
is being done by the Ontario Fire Marshal»3 Office.

Standardized fire training programs have been
carried out by the Fire Marshal's Office in *iegional
Fire Schools in practical fire fighting. These programs
have been carried out in eight counties and will be
extended to other counties in 1952. Specialized one-
week training courses in the problems of atomic warfare
and radiological defence have been carried on by the
Fire Marshal's Office for fire department instructors

D-4

from all the major cities in the Province and for
other municipal officials engaged in civil defence
training.

Outside of the Canadian Army Courses conducted
at Camp Borden and the Royal Military College, these
radiological defence courses conducted by the Fire
Marshal's Office are the only such courses at liie level
of practical field exercises which have been held
anywhere in Canada to date. The Fire Marshal's Office
has also provided cooperation with the Civil Defence
Branch by providing instructors for fire fighting and
atomic warfare subjects in provincially-conducted
Civil Defence courseso

Officers from the Fire Services Division of the
Ontario Fjre Marshal's Office have taken specialized
training in all phases of civil defence duties, particu-
larly in various federally-sponsored courses at Ottawa,
Camp Borden and Royal Military College, and also courses
sponsored by the United States Government and the New
York State Government .

In addition to the staff at Toronto Fire Marshal's
Office headquarters, field officers from the Fire Services
Division are now stationed in London, Welland, Guelph,
Kingston, Lindsay, Cornwall and Timmins, and a re working
with the local fire chiefs in all areas throughout the
province in fire training and civil defence organization
programs.

Close liaison has been developed with New York
and Michigan towards mutual aid among the fire departments

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D-5

in the event of. civil defence emergency. For example,
in New York State, to ensure uniform training practices,
there has been an exchange of personnel attending
each other's training schools. To facilitate communica-
tions in an emergency, the Fire Marshal's Office has
mobile radios on the same wave length as used by some
of t he U, S. fire departments, and this increases
mutual aid.

All municipal fire chiefs throughout the
province have kept abreast of t he latest -thinking in
civil defence and fire civil defence through the
distribution of all available Canadian and United
States manuals. Substantial progress has been made
towards training key fire department instructors
across the province who in any sudden need would be
able to rapidly expand all local training and t he
recruiting and training of fire auxiliaries.

Members of t he Fire Marshal's Office staff
have given lectures on basic emergency fire fighting at
two general civil defence courses in Toronto , one in
Hamilton and one in London, all conducted under the
auspices of the Provincial Civil Defence Committee
with the exception of the London course which was under
the London City Committee.

Members of the Fire Marshal's Office staff have
given lectures in "Atomic V/arfare" at two civil defence
courses in Toronto and one in Hamilton, also conducted
under the Ontario Civil Defence Committee auspices.

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D-6

Field officers, with their sound motion picture
projectors and our lending library films, have shown
various civil defence and atomic warfare films to audien-
ces totalling an estimated 30,000 persons.

To meet the dual purposes of present-day hazards
in fire departments from laboratory and commercial use
of radioactive materials and the possible hazard of
atomic warfare, the Fire Marshal's Office has completed
seven Radioological Defence Courses, combining classroom
teaching and outdoor field practices. At those seven
courses there was a total attendance of 113, mostly
from fire service personnel but including a few other
minaicipal officials and four from the New York State
Bureau of Fire, two from the City of Buffalo Fire
Department and one from the City of Milwaukee Fire
Department .

Short radiological defence courses f or s enior
municipal personnel are scheduled in t he immediate future
for Toronto, Ottawa, Hamilton, London and Windsor, for
which the dates will be settled as soon as a promised
federal s hipment of radioactive sources arrives here.

All fire chiefs from the largest city in each of
the target and support counties in the province were
brought in for a 3-day meeting at Toronto in April
1951. The bread principles were discus.^ed f or fire
civil defence planning and organization in Ontario. The
meeting was attended by 26 leading fire chiefs through-
out the province.

^ ^' ..

.^...7' ..",/, I j<i :,-3;x3: .,i^n

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D-7

MR. OLIVER: Mr. Chairman, would the hon.
Minister (Mr. V/elsh) say how many counties are
organized now?

MR. WELSH: Yes, I can give that. The arrange-
ment is almost completed in Southern Ontario, and
a considerable n\imber of 1he countj'es are completed
or well underway. Practically all of Southern Ontario
has been completed, and there are several districts
in the northern part of the province which will
be very much more difficult to organize because
they have not the same number of fire units, and
the distances are so great.

The chief of the largest city in each county
would be responsible for making all mutual aid arrange-
ments in his county between fire departments to help
themselves and neighbouring counties. Under this
county co-ordination program, fire chiefs have been
appointed as District DePuty-Fire Marshals for the
counties throughout Southern Ontario and three areas
in Northern Ont.ario.

These appointments are now almost all complete for
Southern Ontario, and in a considerable number of counties
the mutual aid plans are either completed or well under-
way.

Regional Fire Schools giving a standardized
fire training program have been barried out for eight
counties at Chatham, Niagara Falls, Oakville, Owen Sound,
Islington, Lindsay, Smith Falls and Cornwall, with a
total attendance of 300. These schools are designed

D~8

primarily for fire department instructors, but there
were some senior officers and some ordinary fire
fighters.

Another important aspect of our civil defence
program is the part being played by the Ontario
Provincial Police. Since our earliest planning days,
the Provincial Police have cooperated in the setting
up of the necessary organization for control of our
primary and secondary roads and highways viiich will
become vital arteries for relief and evacuation of
a bombed-out area.

The problem of road congestion which can occur
after a city has been bombed is frightful. We know
the experience of countries which came uni er enemy
. aerial attack during the two World Wars. We realize
that the problem of keeping our primary and secondary
roads free of traffic congestion Is one of the greatest
to be faced by any civil defence organization.

One of the first jobs to be done was that of
preparing a detailed civil defence road map of Ontario
showing roads which will be designated as primary and
secondary. This was a tremendous undertaking and
required months of surveys by the Provincial Police.
Police Chiefs of all municipalities were contacted and
requested to submit marked maps indicating their opinion
of roads which should be designated as primary and
secondary civil defence routes through their areas.

As this information came in from the local areas,
the work of integrating the system throughout the whole

ii>ui

D-9

of the Province was undertaken by the Provincial Police.
The final Provincial Civil Defence Road Map isnow
complete. Every Provincial Police District and Detach-
ment will be issued with this map showing their respon-
sibilities so there will be no delay or confusion
putting the operation into effect. Arrangements have
been made with local and township police f or t he roads
which will be under their jurisdiction.

A staff officer of the Ontario Provincial Police,
who has attended Civil Defence course in Ottawa, has
travelled throughout the Province giving lectures to
Provincial Police detachments on their duties in the
event of enemy action and explaining the damage caused
by the atom bomb. Some 52 of these lectures have been
given during the past year and they have been attended
by local municipal police.

The radio communications of tte Provincial
Police have been incorporated into the general civil
defence organization and will serve as a vital link with
the provincial civil defence headquarters, with that of
Lands and Forests, Hydro, Fire Departments, Taxicabs,
Hams etc.

I have here a copy of the detailed traffic control
plan prepared by the Ontario Provincial Police which shows
the traffic points, number of men and cars required and the
sources from which these are to be obtained.

During the period that we have been engaged in
civil defence organization a questionnaire has been sent

rfr^h*

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D-10

to all municipalities requesting them to make a survey
of such resources as buildings which might be used as
temporary hospitals, welfare centres, emergency feeding
and clothing stations, as well as normal availabilities
of drugs, food and clothing.

As more municipalities respond to this
questionnaire we are able to build up a valuable
catalogue of civil defence resources throughout the
Province.

(Take "E" Follows)

t

E-1

m. HOUCK: Mr. Chairman, before the Hon.
I'inister (Ilr. '/elsh) leaves that question, raay I ask
if he thinks there is the same interest shown .by
the municipalities toward the matter of civil defence
that, there vias last year.

m. '.^ELSH: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I think there
is. It has been a matter of education. V7e have been met
with a tremendous amount of apathy from a large
portion of the population of Ontario. It is a strange
thing about the Anglo Saxon race, they never appreciate
an emergency until it is right on their doorstep, '/e
are so much inclined to speak about the British Empire
losing all the battles except the last one. But, it
cou].d be that we woula find ourselves in a position
where we cannot afford to lose even the first battle.
The sooner we get that idea "across" to the municipa-
lities, and to the people of Ontario, the happier will
be the position we are in.

I do think there is more interest being
taken now than there was before.

\ie have seen a great deal in the Press lately
about shelters. For the tim.e being we are following the
policy of thorough investigation before recommending

-'-. TN ;■ c-i "^

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E-2

individual or comnunal shelter on a large sc&le.
Certainly we know that the cost of building public
shelters would be prohibitive even if the labour and
materials were available. It has been estimated that
it would cost three billion dollars to provide communal
shelter for only one percent of the population in
critical target areas of the United States, At the
moment we are doubtful of the desirability of this
type of shelter from a safety standpoint, ¥e are in-
clined to encourage our municipal civil defence directors
to make a study of buildings which are suitably con-
structed for shelters. ^'le believe that every person
should explore the premises in which they are presently
situated and determine v/hat parts are the best places
to take up shelter on the basis of the information we
have sent out, or is available on personal protection
against blast, fire and radiations. By examining
either their homes or buildings something can be done
by everyone at once with very little cost.

There was a survey lade in the United States
not so long ago on this question, and it was estimated
there, — and I take it that the figures from the
United States would probably be applicable to Ontario —

OX'

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E-3

that it would cost us three billion dollars to orovide
communal shelters for one percent of the population in
the target areas.

During the war I spent a great deal of time
in a town on the outskirts of London, and Vr, Chairman,

if I may be pardoned for speaking on a personal note
for a moment, I will tell you my experiences with
shelters, and they were not very pleasant, '/e did
practically no training for two months, We were too
busy at night fighting fires. I assure you I saw some
harrowing sights. ''Je dug people out of shelters, which
were supposed to be bombproof, people who had been
drowned by bursting waterpipes, people who had been
asphyxiated by carbon monoxide gas, and people crushed
by the building above them falling in.

This is a subject we want to look into very
carefully, and I know that General V/orthington will
agree with me when I say that we could very easily
make a frightful mistake, by spending all our revenue
in building shelters which would not be of much use
to us.

The first thing we must ask ourselves is

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from what are we to protect the people? Is it against
fire, is it against direct hits, is it against gas,
is it against radio-active material? If it is against
gas, there must be gome sort of air conditioning system
installed. All of these things comprise different
problems, and the solutions must be found. At the
present time we have made no recommendations whatever
in regard to shelters, I am very doubtful of the
desirability of spending a great deal of money at
this stage building the type of shelters which v/e
have to-day. I would encourage our municipalities
and the municipal civil defence directors, to make a
study of the buildings which are suitably constructed
for shelters, as I said before. Every person should
explore the premises in which he lives and determine
what part of those premises would be the best place
to take shelter.

There has been a great deal of information
on this subject sent out, and a great deal of informa-
tion furnished in pamphlet form, I think by examining
our homes and our business places, and other building®,
we can perhaps provide the maximum protection, in the

E-5

light of what we nov7 know, without going to great
expense in this matter.

Mr, Chairman, I have taken up too much time
already, but there are one or two other things I
would like to mention.

(Page E-6 follows)

f

E-6

We have had in existence for some time now a
Provincial Civil Defence Committee composed of
representatives from the Ontario Civil Defence Branch,
the Ontario Department of Health, the Ontario Department
of Lands and Forests, the Department of Highways and
Agriculture, the Ontario Provincial Police and the
Ontario Fire Marshal's Office. This committee is con-
cerned with the over-all organization of the Civil
Defence Force and is assisted and supplemented by special
sub-committees and representatives of various public
organizations who are being asked to participate in Civil
Defence.

Mr, Chairman, I v/ould like to again emphasize
that after two years of hard work our civil defence
organization in this Province has come a long way, con-
sidering that we had to start from scratch.

\\'e have a great deal of v/ork ahead of us before
we can say that v/e have an adequate and effective civil
defence force in readiness for possible enemy air attack,
T/Ve can, however, say that we have established a program
which oan bring it about if we do not let up in our
efforts.

In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I would like to
make some general remark on this problem. Preparedness
does not invite aggression, but the lack of it might

iu

E-7

lead to other nations risking a conflict.

The democratic nations cannot match our
potential aggressors in man power, but we can out pro-
duce them in the necessary materials and have at present
a superiority in industrial production and atomic
weapons. How long these advantages wall lie with us is
problematical. Both sides are right now buying time
to increase their advantages, by the seemingly endless
negotiations in Korea, Iran, Egypt and elsehwere, but
the crises will come eventually and result in armed
conflict or if our strength is sufficient to deter
aggression, permanent.

It is v/ithin the bounds of possibility that
the determining factor may be the appreciation by the
Soviet that this continent is so well prepared to meet
attack that a knock-out blow on our industrial centres
would fail. However, if the opposite viewpoint is
accepted, we may well be subjected to an all out atomic
attempt to destroy our industrial potential and morale.
I would like to point out, Mr. Chairman, that
with the use of aircraft, the whole picture of warfare
changed. Previously the civil populations v/ere not
subject to attack, v/ars v/ere the concern of armed
forces. All that is changed, the last war brought home
the lesson that the civilians were as much a part of any
war effort, and subject to most of the same hazards.

E-8

It also taught the lesson that all countries without
civil defence organizations attacked by Germany were
defeated in record time. Great Britain, with a civil
defence organization, which expanded rapidly under
stress, successfully withstood the greatest bombardment
in history,, and the morale of the people actually rose.
Japan folded in a fev/ days v;hen subjected to atomic
bombardment, although her armed forces were still un-
defeated. Obviously a well trained, civil defence
organization is a necessity for survival. If the
international situation deteriorates, no doubt Federal
legislation will be forthcoming to integrate the
municipal and provincial organizations, and in that event,
all such organizations w.ould go on an operational basis
immediately.

It is the considered opinion of this government
that an operational role at present is undesirable for
several reasons, — cost, apathy, and the necessity of
sustained endeavour. Let us lay the ground work, train
and educate our key personnel in fundamentals, build
up our resources of fire, medical, welfare, police and
engineering facilities, and when the time of emergency
arrives, v;e have the necessary plans and people ready to
expand the organization. That is all I think is
necessary at present, as this may be a long term

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E-9

programme. 17e are endeavouring, and I am sure the
Federal Government is also .doing all possible to prepare
ourselves to meet such an emergency with confidence,

Basic training in this field might be compared
to a parachute. "If you need it, and haven't got it,
you v;ill never need it again."

(TAKE "F" FOLLOWS)

F-1

IvIR. V/. L. HOUCK (Niagara Falls): Mr. Speaker,
may I say that during the Session of last year, like
most hon. member, I vv'as quite concerned about this
matter of civil defence. I rather felt at that time
and felt it keenly tooj that not only the Provincial
Governnent but the Federal Government was rather lax
in that respect, that neither Government was doing too
much nor taking any interest in regards to civil
defence. However, at this time, I v/ant to congratulate
the hon. Provincial Secretary (Mr. V/elsh) for the
splendid report of progress he has made on this very
important subject. I see, according to the estimates,
there is only $50,000. granted, last year it was |25,000.
but I presume it is just a token estimate, that more
can be drawn if that is not enough. I am not so much
worried about the money that is voted in the estimates
for this very important subject, but I quite agree with
the hon. Provincial Secretary (Mr. vVelsh) that this is
a matter that must be dealt with at the local level
and must be voluntary organization in order to make
it the success that we v/ant it to be, I certainly
think that the Provincial Government and the Federal
Government must give leadership to the municipalities.
As the hon. Provincial Secretary (Mr. V/elsh) well knows,
the municipalities are not financially able to pay their

F-2

own way in regard to this very important item,

I am very pleased in regard to the progress
he has made on this q^uestion, \Ie , in Niagara Falls,
have sent one or two of oar Council members down to
the City of Ottawa for tv70 or three v>reeks and they have
come back and we have started to organize, as far as
civil defence is concerned.

It rather puts me to shame when I realize
what they are doing in New York State, especially in
Niagara Falls, Nev; York, in regard to civil defence.
They are holding meetings every night in school houses
in the outlying districts, meetings for school children
every day, they have already marked their highv\fays for
evacuation and everybody is right up to the minute as
far as anything taking place. I think we have a lesson
to learn from them.

I want to pay tribute to the Red Cross and
the St. John's Ambulance Corps. I think they are doing
a splendid work and in case of disaster, they v^/ould be
called upon and not found wanting. I am very pleased
to vote this money for conversion and standardization
of equipment in regard to the fire -fighting department.
We, in Niagara Falls, have at times been called upon
by Niagara Falls, Nev*r York, Fire Department, to help
out and in turn, we have called upon them and because

F-3

our eciuipment is standardized, v/e can assist one
another.

The hon. Minister of Labour (Mr. Daley)
knows St. Catharines has had one or two serious fires
and because our equipment was not standardized, we
were unable to go there and at different times we have
asked them to assist us and they could not.

In Niagara Falls, we are in a rather
peculiar position, probably more so than anybody else
in the province of Ontario, In case we had to evacuate
our people, we would have only one way to go. We cannot
go to the south or north because of the lakes on both
sides. If^ perchance, some of the bridges over the
Hydro canal happened to be blovm up, we would be stopped
right there.

{TAKE "G" FOLLOWS)

G-1

Naturally ws are vitally interested in seeing
some real plan formulated for the people in the
Niagara District in case we have to evacuate them
at very cihort notice. I want therefore to plead
with the hon. Provincial Secretary (Mr. Welsh) to keep
up the good work he is doing Jointly v;ith Ottawa. For
this splendid report^ both levels of government de-
serve a pat on the back for the efforts they have put
forth in the past few months, and I know this Govern-
ment,acting with the Federal Government, will show
leadership which is being demanded at the present
time by our municipalities.

On Vote 142:

MR. J. B. SALS3SRG (St. Andrew): Mr. Chairman,
on Vote l42. Item 4, I have on previous occasions when
we considered the Estimates , spoken about the cost of
living bonus, and on every such occasion have urged
the Government to agree to incorporating the cost of
living bonus into the wage and salary structure of
our civil servants. I was disappointed, as I am
sure the civil servants were, at the failure of the
Government to do that. This year, however, Mr.
Chairman, I am more surprised than in the past,
surprised that we still continue the practice
which most sections of private Industry have
abandoned, where in most instances the cost of
living bonus has been incorporated into the wage
structure. The Civil Service of Ontario has made
a strong point of that, and I was hopeful that this

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year there would be a special provision in view of
the sentiments expressed by the Hon. Prime Minister
(Mr. Frost) on this question.

HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Of course,
Mr. Chairman, our cost of living bonus is on a
slightly different basis -- if I may so phrase it --
f roM other industries . We give automatic increases
to cur staff, Mr. Chairman. This year we are getting
them through earlier than ever. We have twelve or
fifteen thousand employees and it takes a long time
to go through them, but we are giving our staff
automatic increases , and they are going through at
the present time by the thousands .

V>fe did incorporate the cost of living bonus
into salaries some four or five years ago; there was
a cost of living bonus but we revamped the salaries of
the whole service, included that, and then instituted
a new method of giving salary increases one step, or
whatever it may be, every year.

The cost of living bonus, sir, at the present
time is $35 a month. That bonus is a true cost of
living bonus. It is based upon salary increases which
are automatic every year, and this amount is added to
salaries every month and amounts to $^1-00 a year at the
present time.

There might be an argument for incorporating
some of that in salary, but on the other hand it
seems to me that under our system, where we have auto-
matic increases every year it Is a true cost of living

G-3

bonus and should be so regarded.

MR. SALSBERG: Mr. Chairman, I am sorry I
cannot agree with the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost).

MR. FROST ('Prime Minister): Well, you never
do agree with me .

MR. SALSBERG: I might say I smiled as the
hon. Prime Minister rose; I think he rose a.t almost

the same point a year ago when I raised the very
same question, and gave the same explanation. Since
that last remark of the hon. Prime Minister a year
ago -- and that is why I said before I was surprised
at the continuation of the policy -- the hon. Prime
Minister was present at a meeting of representatives
of the Civil Service Association and I have before me
a section of the official publication of the Associa-
tion for October, 1951- Of course, Mr. Chairman,
that was shortly before the event in November. At
that time this question was raised and I quote from
page 8 of The Trillium for October as follows:

"Cabinet also approved in prin-
ciple the incorporation of the major
portion of bonus into basic salaries.
As a matter of recorded fact, the
Prime Minister in his remarks at a
joint advisory council last June
indicated that he favoured Increased
salaries to meet rising living costs
rather than bonuses --"

MR. FROST (Prime Minister): That is right, but

we have given both since that time.

MR. SALSBERG:

"-- and expressed the hope that within
the year all bonuses would be incorpora-
ted in the salaries and future discre-
pancies taken care of by straight salary
Increases .

mi

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"The machinery of finance being
what It Is In a corporate operation as
large as Ontarjo's, It would be almost
a physical lmp5ssibillty to create
such a tremendous change In a year.
It has therefore been agreed by the
Administration that when the end of
the present fiscal year rolls around,
basic salaries will be expanded
across the board to take in all or
the major portion of the then exist-
ing cost of living bonus."

That is the end of the quotation and obviously
the impression was left that in preparing the budget
for the coming fiscal year the cost of living bonuses
would be incorporated, and I see by the Estimates that
the cost of living bonus item is much larger than it
was last year, so that .obviously we are not dealing
with one cost of living bonus only but with the
major portion.

This is very Important, I am sure, to the
civil servants; it is not only a question of incor-
porating cost of living increases so as to make sure
they become part of the general salary structure for
the future, which is an important consideration, but
what is also of Immediate importance to the civil
servants is this, that fllure to Incorporate the
cost of living bonus deprives them of benefits
which they otherwise would get. The amounts

of , the various contributions to funds which
the Civil Service would make, the retirement fund
and so on, are smaller because of the failure to
Incorporate the cost of living bonus into the wage
structure .

Industrial workers, unionized workers, have,

G-5

in the main, succeeded in abolishing this injustice
and have had the bonus incorporated Into the wage
structure and they derive a benefit which the Civil
Service is denied. * It is all very nice to get on
festive occasions and pay tribute to the Civil
Serants for the fine work they are doing -- and
I am sure we are all proud of the Civil Service
of this Province -- but I think we can always ex-
press it best in giving them an adequate living
wage and all the benefits they are entitled to,
and thus set an example to private Industry. But
I do not think we are setting an example by con-
tinuing the policy of separating cost of living
bonuses from the basic wage structure. I am amazed,
especially in view of the impression the hon. Prime
Minister (Mr. Frost) left with the Civil Service as
officially recorded in their Journal. I do not know
the editors of their publication but I imagine they
quite deliberately, as they say, put on "As a matter
of record" the opinion expressed by the hon. Prime
Minister (Mr. Frost) at the time.

Mr. Chairman, this Item will recur in the con-
sideration of the Estimates of every branch of
Government and I thought we might as well discuss
It now and deal with it fully rather than deal with
it piecemeal on each Estimate.

I want to ask the hon. Provincial Secretary
(Mr. Welsh) whether he and the Government will not
agree to implement what amounts to a pledge by the

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G-6

hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) to the Civil Servants
that the cost of living bonus would be Incorporated
in the salary structure when the new year rolled
around. Well, the new year is here and now is the
time to carry out the pledge given the Civil Servants,
a pledge which was given as a result of their con-
tinued pressure and demand.

Vote No. l42 agreed to.

On Vote No. l43:

MR. J. B. SALSBERG (St. Andrew): Mr. Chairman,
since the hon. Provincial Secretary (Mr. Welsh) did
not answer my question on the previous Vote, I want
to say something about No. 1^3. In this Vote we
deal with the Civil Service Commission, and I think
this as good a place as any in the Estimates of the
hon. Provincial Secretary to deal with another evil
that exists in the Civil Service of the Province.
I am referring now to the evil of casuals.

For years the Civil Service Association has been
pressing this Government for the elimination of a
state of affairs which constitutes a grievous in-
justice to thousands of honest, devoted civil ser-
vants by keeping them on the list of casual em-
ployees and therefore not entitled to the security
which permanent employees are receiving. I want
to say now, Mr. Chairman, to new hon. members of
the House that this is not an issue that affects
only a handful of employees and not only in one
constituency. I think you will find such

fiffl

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G-7

discrimination tn every constituency.

The Civil Service estimates that about six
thousand employees of the Government are not listed
as permanent employees but are shown as casuals and,
of course, receive no benefits of the sort the others
get. In their publication a couple of years ago
the Association devoted an entire editorial to the
question. I have in my hand an editorial from
The Civil Service News of June, 1950, and I want to
say, Mr. Chairman and hon. members, that the situa-
tion has not changed materially since then. Now
what was the situation at that time as dealt with by
the Civil Service? They said the following:

"Each spring when the Estimates
are brought in the Civil Service Com-
missioner enters a report on the num-
ber of civil servants in the employ
of the Ontario Government. By tacit

implication the members of the public
are led to believe that this figure
represents the total establishment
of our public payrolls. Yet a spot
survey made by the Civil Service
Association of Ontario from within
its membership would tend to indicate
that some six thousand individuals
are continuously employed by various
Government departments but completely
denied the privilege of security and
superannuation usually associated with
capable and responsible servants."

And listen to this, Mr. Chairman:

"There are countless cases on
record where individuals have ser-
ved the public through the offices
of Government Departments continu-
ously and diligently for periods
ranging from five to twenty-five years.
It Is reasonable to suppose from the

employee's point of view that he has
a steady job. He has, but he cannot
en,joy the security of tenure nor look
forward to the reward of superannuation."

• 'sH^' ■ffto^l". ;f»?^c,i'ii;a'

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G-8

Mr. Chairman, I think this is a scandalous
situation. We talk about responsibility of private
enterprise and of industry to its workers, but this
Government is setting a horrible example by keeping
upwards of six thousand people on the casual list for
periods of from five to twenty-five years.
I think it is a gross injustice to those people.
You will find particularly in the Department of
Highways people working on the highways in your
constituencies who have been on the job for ten
years and more and are still listed as casuals.

I do not think the people of this Province
want this Gcvernment or any Government to perpetuate
an injustice like that and, Mr. Chairman, it may be
some defence for the Government to say they did not
institute the policy, that they inherited it from
previous Governments, but I suggest that is hardly
a justification for the continuation of this policy
now. I venture to suggest that if my remarks were
printed in the weeklies in the smaller communities
from which you come, you would have hundreds of your
constituents come to you, each hon. member separately,
and say: "What the hon. member for St. Andrew said
is absolutely true, and why do you not do something
about it?"

There is an entire section of the Maintenance
staff, for Instance, that is not considered permanent
because its employees only work five or six hours a
day, but they have been working five and six hours

:v.5-:

G-9

a day for fifteen years and more, yet they are still
not considered permanent and are not entitled to any
of the benefits which the permanent members of the
staff are entitled to, on a percentage basis that is.

I want to protest very, very sharply against
this horrible policy which is being continued in our
Civil Service. I think it is high time we stopped
it, and I hope the hon. Provincial Secretary (Mr .Welsh),
who is a very fine gentleman whom I admire personally,
and whom I hate to put "on the spot", will nevertheless
rise and either defend this Government's policy on
an indefensible position or say that it was wrong and
they will do away with this injustice henceforth.

MR. W. L. HOUCK (Niagara Falls): Mr. Chairman,
before you leave Vote No. 143, I want to ask the hon.
Provincial Secretary (Mr. Welsh) a couple of questions
and I do not want to make a speech. I wonder if the
hon. Minister would tell me, is the Civil Service
Commission made up of three members or just one member
at the present time.

MR. V/ELSH: Just one member at the present time,
Mr. Chairman.

MR. HOUCK: And how many permanent civil ser-
vants are listed with the Commission at the present
time?

MR. WELSH: You mean in the Civil Service
Commissioner's office?

MR. HOUCK: That is right, yes.

MR. WELSH: The staff of the Commission, Mr.

eoi

^^dff

G-10

Chairman, numbers twenty-nine as compared with twenty-
six last year.

MR. W. J. GRUMMETT (Cochrane South): Mr.
Chairman, following the question asked by the hon.
member for Niagara Palls (Mr. Houck), I believe new
hon. members should be informed that the Statutes
provide for a Commission of three members . We
passed an Act, if I remember correctly, in 1950, an
amendment providing for a Commission of three members
and that amendment to the Act stated that the Commis-
sion "may be increased to three". There was the
whole secret of the thing, Mr. Chairman; the Com-
mission "may be increased to three." Why do we not
put in our Statutes "the Commission shall be in-
creased to three"? It leaves it to the Government
to do as they wish on recommendations of this kind.
I think that Commission should now be increased to
three .

I have a great deal of admiration for the
Commissioner; he is a very fine man and doing a very
fine Job, but it is a big job and I believe he and
everyone else would be better satisfied if he had some
assistance in the Job he has to do.

MR. SALSBERG: Mr. Chairman, I want to protest
against the attitude of the hon. Provincial Secretary
(Mr. Welsh) in Just sitting there and refusing to
answer a question.

HON. DANA PORTER (Attorney General): He does
not have to.

G-11

MR. SALSBERG: He does not have to, I know.

THE CHAIRMAN: Order.

MR. SALSBERG: I shall raise another question;
perhaps I will get an answer to this one.

MR. PORTER: What is the question?

MR. SALSBERG: I may speak if I want to.

MR. PORTER: I know, but you did not ask a
question.

MR. SALSBERG: The hon. Attorney General
(Mr. Porter) had better read the rules and not come
to the defence of the hon. Provincial Secretary (Mr.
Welsh). He is well able to take care of himself,

MR. PORTER: I am just an hon. member entitled
to know what is the question.

MR. SALSBERG: There is a good reason he does
not answer; it is because he cannot defend the situation
I mentioned. Having failed on these two, I want to ask
another question. Why did the hon. Provincial
Secretary (Mr. Welsh) on behalf of the Government --
because whatever he does is the responsibility of
Government -- interfere when the employees of the
Liquor Commission attempted to Join a union and deny
them the right to join a union?

MR. WELSH: Mr. Chairman, I would be very glad
to answer that question. We have in the Liquor
Control Board an Employees ' Association. I was
approached by an absolute outsider whom I had never
seen before in my life, who demanded that he be
brought in to see me on a matter that affected the

A ^Ys^ii^J

G-12

Association of the Liquor Control Board, and I said,
"No, I deal with only one Assoeiatlon; that is the
Association of my own employees. If they wish to
bring this man in, that is their privilege, but
until they do I will not see him."

MR. SALSBERG: For the record I must state --

THE CHAIRMAN: Order.

MR. SALSBERG: I beg your pardon, there is
nothing wrong with what I am doing; I am not violating
any rules of the House In Committee. For the record
I must state that the hon. Provincial Secretary (Mr.
Welshj_ did more than what he has announced here. He
made public statements that he considered the em-
ployees of the Liquor Commission as Civil Servants
and therefore could not join a trade union. That is
recorded.

MR. WELSH: That is absolutely untrue. I
made the statement that the employees of the Liquor
Control Board were civil servants, that is true. I
said nothing whatever about their joining any labour
union or anything else.

MR. SALSBERG: I am glad to hear that and I
will check it.

Votes Nos. 143 and Ihk agreed to.

On Vote No. 1^5:

MR. V/. L. HOUCK (Niagara Falls): Mr. Chairman,
Vote l45 is up some $12,000 over last year. I wonder
if the hon. Provincial Secretary (Mr. Welsh) could
tell us the reason. This is not an election year,
is it?

':■ UlSl ::■>.. .

G-13

MR. WELSH: Mr. Chairman, in reply to the
question the hon. member for Niagara Palls (Mr. Houch)
has asked, that Includes the. salaries of the Clerk of
the Crown In Chancery, who used formerly to be
shown separately. We have amalgamated, that is
all, and that is why that Item Is larger.

Vote No. l45 agreed to.

On Vote No. l46:

MR. J. B. SALSBERG (St. Andrew): Mr. Chairman,
may I ask the hon. Provincial Secretary (Mr. Welsh)
to tell us how much of this $6,100 appropriated a
year ago for the Legislative Committee for Art
Purposes was used, and whose likeness was painted
and where was it hung?

HON. DANA PORTER (Attorney General): Where
Is it?

MR. SALSBERG: It Is In Vote No. l46. Item 8.
MR. WELSH: Mr. Chairman, in reply to the
question of the hon. member for St. Andrew, the
Estimates for 1951-52 provided an amount of $6,125
to meet the possibility of the portraits being
painted of Hon. Mr. Hepburn, the Hon. Mr. Nixon and
the Hen. Mr. Drew. None were painted, however, and
to again provide for that possibility an amoiont of
$6,000 was placed In this year's Estimates.

MR. SALSBERG: Mr. Chairman, does that mean
they are the only outstanding hon. members who have
not been painted, who deserve to be painted?

MR. WELSH: Well, Mr. Chairman, whether they

.TIS

ypi:j

f i.■■

J:*il'l•

H.,

G-14

remain outstanding would be a matter of personal
opinion^ but I may say they are the only three
Premiers who have not been painted.

MR. W. J. GRUMMETT (Cochrane South): Mr.
Chairman, on Vote 1^6, Item 6, I notice there Is an
Estimate set aside for Committees ' fees and so forth
of $2,000. Is that to cover Select Committees of the
Legislature? If It Is, then does the hon. Provincial
Secretary (Mr. Welsh) not think It Is too low? In
1951 the Select Committees of the Legislature I be-
lieve cost an amount of around $l8,000, and more and
more the work of the Legislature has to be done by
Committees, and I think we should provide In the
Estimates for a sufficient amount to cover the
expenses of these Committees. Undoubtedly this
year there will be three or four Select Committees,
and $2,000 will not by any means cover the expense.

MR. I'ELSH: Mr. Chairman, In reply to the hon.
member for Cochrane South (Mr. Grummett), he Is quite
right, that is only a token estimate actually because
it is impossible to make an estimate that is anywhere
near being correct as to the amount of money that
will be expended on Committees. In the first place,
when these Estimates were made up some time ago we
did not know how many Committees were going to be in
operation, and we dldnot know how many hon. members were
to sit on those Committees or how long they are going
to sit, so it Is necessary to put in an amount, but
it is actually only a token amount. As the hon.
member for Cochrane South says, the item last year

nofl

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■ji'^ris;

Vir- t-i

;r:-r...'.jy?i>

G-15

was very much smaller than the amount that was
actually expended. We spent about $l8,0o0.

Vote No. l46 agreed to.

On Vote No. 1^-7 r.

MR. J. 3. SALSBJiRG (St .Andrew): Mr. Chairman,,
on Vote 1^7 I do not think it is necessary to apologize
but I do want to explain that, after all, the Opposition
side is not taking up too much time.

HON. DANA PORTER (Attorney General): Well,
do not apologize, that is a waste of time.

MR. SALSBERG: On l47, the Queen's Printer,
there are a couple of re.narks I want to make and a
couple of questions I v/ant to ask. First I want to
reiterate what I have said on other occasions, and
that is that all printiiig done by the Government
through the Queen's Printer should in my opinion
bear the union label. I believe that nowadays this
is not too much to ask even from a Conservative
Government. I think this Government can take the
example of the City of Toronto where the Civic
Government has established this principle, that City
printing bear the union label and it is asked for
when contracts are let. I think we should follow
that very fine example and make it part of the
conditions for granting contracts that the union
label be . .'^ovm. I chould like to hear from the
hon. Provincial Secretary (Mr. Welsh) as to whether
he agrees with this ver;' progressive thought and
this very correct suggeptlon.

^ (".'.< r-

•I'i^il OJ

G-16

The other point I want to raise is the manner
in which our printing contracts are let. I hnve
tried for the last couple of years to find this out,
but have failed to get the Queen's Printer to attend
the meetings of the Committee on Printing to answer
questions . I gave that Information to the House
and the very genial hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost),
in his very friendly way, implied that I may have been
in order in asking, but that there is nothing In the
rules to compel the Queen's Printer to appear if he
does not wish to, even before the Committee on Printing.
Because I was persistent -- and may this be a lesson
to you young hon. members -- I was dropped from the
Committee on Printing. That is the way I was answered,
Let It, also, be a lesson for you that when you want
something badly you can secure it in more ways
than one. Having been dropped from the Committee
on Printing, on which I had the privilege of serving
for a long time, I am now obliged to raise the ques-
tion here rather than in the Committee on Printing.
It would have been wiser to have allowed me to
continue on that Committee.

I want to say that I am not satisfied that
the official printing contracts of this Province are
let in a manner that is satisfactory. I do not know
whether the major printing orders are advertised,
although I have been a member of the Committee on
Printing for years. i do not know whether firms
are given an opportunity to bid for the printing

G-17

contract, and I do not know whether it is granted
to the lowest bidder, everything else being equal or
not, and I doubt whether other hon* members of the
House know, and I doubt whether other hon. members
of the Cabinet know. In fact, I am sure the hon.
members of the Cabinet do not know, and I think
that is a wrong procedure. I think it is very, very
bad when we cannot state that all our contracts are
let in a manner that will give every printing house
in the province an opportunity to compete, and that
the contracts will go to those who offer to do the
work for the lowest price, everything else being
equal . ■

I think the hon. Provincial Secretary should,
in addition to answering my first question about
printing with the union label, also enlighten the
House on the procedure followed in regard to the
matter I have Just raised.

Just a moment, Mr. Chairman; the hon.
Provincial Secretary wishes to make an explanation.
I think you should give him that opportunity.

MR. V/ELSH: Mr. Chairman, to my knowledge I
have answered that same question perennially. If
the hon. member for St. Andrew (Mr. Salsberg) has
been on the Committee on Printing so long and is
so familiar with its workings, it is a very strange
thing to me that he has not found out that the
Committee does not deal with Government printing
generally.

G-18

MR. SALSBERG: What does the Committee on
Printing deal with?

MR. WELSH: It deals with the printing of
the Reports of the Hcuse.

MR. SALSBERG: What major deals —

MR. WELSH: And each major job is let by tender,
and if he is in doubt as to anything being wrong in
the office of the Queen's Printer, he has his remedy
in his own hands. Call the Public Accounts Com-
mittee and we would welcome an investigation.

MR. SALSBERG: I did not say anything was
wrong.

MR. WELSH: The hon. member has brought up
this old perennial chestnut when he speaks about the
union shop. We have in the Province of Ontario
1100 firms engaged in the printing businesss, of which
five per cent are union shops and they are practically
all in the City of Toronto, and he uses the City of
Toronto as an example. There are a lot of other
printers in the Province of Ontario besides those in
the City of Toronto, and of those 1100 firms actually
engaged in printing -- and that includes newspapers
and other people who are in the business as well —
we deal with 722.

Does that answer the hon. member's question?

MR. SALSBERG: No. There are union shops in
Toronto, Hamilton, Kingston, Ottawa and other places.
I.n the cities where there are union shops do you
give preference to the union shops and ask for the
union label.

(Take "H" follows)

H-1

MR. WELSH: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to
drag this discussion too long. The hon. member for
St. Andrew (Mr, Salsberg) knows as well as I do that
there are a large number of printers who are union
men, but are not engaged in union shops, and I certainly
will not restrict my printing contracts to about five
per cent of the shops in Ontario.

On Vote I4S.

lim. GRUM5ETT: I would like to ask one
question, Mr. Chairman, of the Hon. Minister, covering
the standardization of hose couplings and allied fittings.
Have any steps been taken t o prevent municipalities in
the future purchasing equipment which is not standard-
ised? Supposing some little municipality in some area
purchases some old equipment and installs it, and
immediately thereafter, that particular equipment
might be standardized, I wonder if the Department
has taken steps to see that suppliers of equipment,
in the future, do not supply any equipment whatsoever
in the Frovince which is not of a standard make,

MR.'.'ELSH: Mr. Chairman, I would like to
thank the hon, member for Cochrane South (Mr, Grummett)
for bringing that matter up, because it is very
important. We realize the danger. With the help of

i^^lti

Si-IO

H-2

the Federal Government, we are not importing any-
American equipment which does not rate the standard
specifications, and when new equipment is standardized,
the old equipment is taken out, and replaced, and is
then melted down, for further use in some other way.

That question might arise, but I do not think
it will, because the Fire Marshal has absolute control
of the equipment in the Province, and he is well-
acquainted with the situation, and will not fail to
see that all his equipment is standardized.

IIR. HOUCK: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the Hon.

Minister (Mr, VJelsh) a question? He mentioned this

afternoon either four or six men who were lecturing
on the question of civil defence. May I ask if they

are loaned by the Federal Government, or are they paid

for by the Provincial Government?

m. "JELSH: They are employees of the Civil

Defence Department, I think I have about seven people

altogether in that branch.

Votes I4S to 150 inclusive, agreed to,
HON. L. K. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr.

Chairman, I move the Committee rise and report progress.

Motion agreed to.

Kt:

H-3

The House resumed; Mr, Patrick in the Ch.-.ir,

im, A. W. DOWNER (Dufferin Simcoe): Mr.
weaker, the Cominittee of Supply begs to inform you
lat it has come to certain resolutions^ and moveF for
9ave to sit again.

Motion agreed to,

HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr.
oeaker, I move that you do now leave the Chair, and
le House resolve itself into the Committee of the
lole.

Motion agreed to.

House in Committee; Mr, Patrick in the diir.

THE MAGISTRATES' ACT. 1952
CLERK OF THE HOUSE: 24th Order; House in

-jmmittee on Bill No. 44.

HON. DANA PORTER (Attorney-General): Mr.
lairman, I move that Order No. 24 be discharged, and
lat Bill No, 44 be referred to the Committee on Legal

lIIs,.

Motion agreed to.

Order No. 24 discharged.

H-4

THE CITY OF STRATFORD

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Private Bills; first
order; House in Committee on Bill No. 3, "An Act
respect ingthe City of Stratford." Mr. Edwards,

Sections 1 to 5 inclusive, agreed to.

The preamble agreed to.

Bill No, 3 reported.
THE CITY OF Si^ULT STE. FxARIE

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Second Order; House in
Committee on Bill No. 5, "An Act respecting the City
of Sault Ste. Harie", Mr. Lyons.

Sections 1 to 9 inclusive, agreed to.

The preamble agreed to.

Bill No, 5 reported,
THE TOm OF TBMINS bEPnRATE SCHOOL BOARD

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Third Order; House in
Committee on Bill No. 6, ^'An Act respecting the Town
of Timmins Separate School Board", Mr, Grummett,

Sections 1 to 6 inclusive, agreed to.

The preamble agreed to.

Bill No, 6 reported,

(Take "I" follows)

I-l

J. L. THOMPSON SUPPLY LIMITED

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Fourth Order, House in
Committee on Bill No. 8, "An Act respectlrr: J. L.
Thompson Supply Limited." Mr. Parry.

Sections 1 to 3 Inclusive agreed to.

Preamble agreed to.

Bill No. -8 reported.

TOWN OF BARRIE

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Fifth Order, House in
Committee on Bill No. 27, "An Act respecting the
Town of Barrie . " Mr. Johnston (Simcoe Centre).

Sections 1 to 4 inclusive agreed to.

Preamble agreed to.

Bill Noo 27 reported.

CITY OF FORT WILLIAM

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Sixth Order, House in
Committee on Bill No. 7, "An Act respecting the City
of Port William." Mr. Mapledoram.

Sections 1 to 21 inclusive agreed to.

Schedule agreed to.

Preamble agreed to.

Bill Noe 7 reported.

MUNICIPALITY OF NEEBING

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Seventh Order, House in
Committee on Bill No. 17, "An Act respecting the
Municipality of Neeblng." Mr. Mapledoram.

Sections 1 to 7 Inclusive agreed to.

Preamble agreed to.

Bill No. 17 reported.

\^

1-2

TOWNSHIP OF McKIM

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Eighth Order, House In
Committee on Bill No. 33, "An Act respecting the
Township of McKlm." Mr. Fullerton.

Sections 1 to 3 inclusive agreed to.

Preamble agreed to.

Bill Ho. 33 reported.

THE DIVISION COURTS ACT

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Seventeenth Order, House
in Committee on Bill No. 40, "An Act to amend the
Divisions Courts Act." Mr. Porter.

Sections 1 to 4 inclusive agreed to.

Bill .No. 40 reported.

(Take "j" follows)

J-1

THE REGISTRY ACT.

CLERK OF TliS HOUSE: Eighteenth order, House in
Committee on Bill 45, "i^ji Act to amend the Registry
Act", Mr. Porter.

Sections 1 to 8 inclusive agreed to.

Bill No. 45 reported,

THE SURROGATS COURTS ACT.

CLERIC OF THE HOUSE: Nineteenth order. House in
Commmittee on Bill No. 46, "An Act to amend the Sur-
rogate Courts Act", Mr. Porter.

Sections 1 to 3 inclusive agreed to.
Bill No. 46 reported.

COUNTY COURTS ACT.

CLERK OF THE: HOUSE: Twentieth order; House in
Committee on Bill No. 57, "An Act to Amend the County
Courts Act", Mr. Porter,

Sections 1 to 5 inclusive agreed to.

Bill No. 57 reported,

THE SHERIFFS ACT.

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Twenty-first order, House in
Committee on Bill No. 59, "An Act to amend the Sheriffs'
Act", Mr. Porter.

Sections 1 to 5 inclusive agreed to.

J-E

Bill No. 59 reported,

HON.L. M. FROST (Prime Minis.ter): Mr. Chairman,
I move the Comrrdttee do now rise and report certain
Bills v/ithout amendment i

Motion agreed to.

The House resumes; Mr. Downer in the Chair,

ivB. T. L. PATRICK (Middlesex North): Mr. Speaker,
The Committee of the V/hole House begs to report certain
Bills \7ithout amendment, and move its adoption.
Motion agreed to.

TOV.g^I OF FORT ERIE.

CLERK OF THT HOUSE: Ninth order; second
reading of Bill No. 30, "An Act Respecting the Town
of Fort Erie", Mr„ Houck,

hm. 17. L. HOUCK (Niagara Falls): Mr. Speaker,
I move second reading of Bill No. 30, "An Act respecting
the Town of Fort Erie".

Motion agreed to; second reading of the Bill.

(Take "K" follows').

nv/c J.

&^ ttiiA cut"

1 ftnoDi

■. f': ^ ■ ^'i '.«V&A

K-1

CLERIi OF THS HOUSL: 10th Order; Second
Reading of Bill l\io.4, "An Act respecting Sarnia Young
J'^en's and Young Women's Christian Association", Mr»
Cathcart ,

Mr. T. R. DENT (Oxford): L'r. Speaker, in
the absence of Mr, Cathcart, I move second reading of
Bill No. 4, "An Act respecting Sarnia Young Men's and
Young '.'/omen's Christian Association".

Motion agreed to; second reading of the Bill,

SYNAGOGUE AND JF;/ISH COM .UNITY CENTRE
OF OTTAWA

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: 11th Order; Second
reading of Bill No. 11, "An Act respecting the Synagogue
and Jewish Co^inunity Centre of Ottawa", T'r. Morrow,

MR. T. PRYDE (Huron): Mr. Speaker^ in the
absence of Mr, I'.orrow, I move second reading of Bill
No, 11, "An Act respecting the Synagogue and Jewish
Community Centre of Ottawa".

Motion agreed to; second reading of the

Bill,

THE YOUNG I.Li,K'S CHRISTL.N ASSOCIATION
OF BELLEVILLE

CLERK OF TH-u HOUSE: 12th Order; second
reading of Bill No. 42, "An Act respecting the Young

K-2

Fen's Christian Association of Belleville," Mr,
Sandercock.

MR. T. PsRYDE (Huron): ITr. Speaker, in the
absence of I^r. Sandercock, I move second reading of
Bill No. 22, "An Act respecting the Young lien's Christian
Association of Belleville",

I'otion agreed to; second reading of the Bill.

TC^'.^NSHIP OF PELEE
CLERK OF THE HOUSE: 13th Order; Second reading
of Bill No. 23, "An Act respecting the Township of Pelee",
Fr. Furdoch.

lUt. T. P.RIDE (Huron): Mr. Speaker, in the
absence of Fr. Furdoch, I move second reading of Bill
No. 23, "An Act respecting the Township of Pelee".

Motion agreed to; second reading of the Bill,

CITY OF KINGSTON
CLERK OF THi^ HOUSE: 14th Order; second reading
of Bill No, 32, "An Act respecting the City of Kingston",
Mr. Nickle.

MR. G. G. JOHNSTON (Simcoe Centre): Mr.
Speaker, in the absence of Mr, Nickle, I move second
reading of Bill No. 32, "An Act respecting the City of

K-3

Kingston".

Motion agreed to; second reading of the Bill.

HON. L. y. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr.
Speaker, before moving the adjournment of the House,
I would like to table answers to questions Cl+, 7B, 5S,
52, 4g and 47.

MR. \'J. L. HOUCK: (Niagara Falls): Mr. Speaker,
before the House adjourns, the Hon. Leader of the Opposi-
tion (Mr, Oliver) requested I ask the Hon. Prime Minister
if it is the intention to continue the Budget Debate all
to-morrow afternoon.

MR. FROST: Mr. Speaker, I would like to go
ahead at three o'clock with the address by the financial
critic of the Opposition, the hon. member for Brant (Mr.
Nixon), and then the other Opposition speakers. I am
not sure at the moment whether there will be any Govern-
ment speakers intervening or not.

I would like to take up the supplementary
estimates mentioned in the Budget, following which we
might consider the estimates of the Attorney-General's
Department. Then, if there is still time, we can proceed
with the second r eadings of certain Bills, but I can

u'-^e -.-•■. J ri&o i'"^ ^^T.l^ ri;:t€'ai

K-4

assure the hon, members that the speeches on the Budget
will take precedence,

I'Ir. Speaker, I move the adjournment of the
House.

Totion agreed to.

The House adjourned at 6,02 of the clock p.m.

ONTARIO

of ^t
of tijp

Toronto, Ontario, February 21, 1952, et seq.

Volume XXIV

Tuesday, March 25, 1952.

HON. (Rev.) M. G. DAVIES, • Speaker.

Chief Hansard Reporter
Parliament Buildings
Toronto

A-l

T '■/ E N T Y - F 0 U R T H DAY

PROCEEDINGS

of the

FIRST SESSION OF THE rJEivTY-FOURTH LEGISLATURE, HELD
IN THE PARLIAFENT BUILDINGS, TORONTO, ONTARIO, ON
THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 21st, 1952, et seq.

Hon. (Rev.) M. C. Davies, Speaker,

Presiding,

Toronto, Ontario,
Tuesday, March 25, 1952.

The House having met. 3 o'clock p.m.

Prayers,

M. SPEAKER: Presenting petitions.

Reading and receiving petitions.

Presenting reports by Committees.

LIR. W. M. KICKLE (Kingston) : I.^r, Speaker, I
beg leave to present the fifth report of the Standing
Committee on Private Bills and move its adoption.
• THE CLERK-ASSISTANT: Mr. Nickle, from the

A-2

Standing Cornjnittee on Private Bills, presents the
following as its fifth report:

Your Committee begs to report the following
Bills with certain amendments : -

Bill Ko.12 - An Act respecting the City of London.
Bill No.l^ - An Act respecting The Ottawa Association

for the Advancement of Learning.
Bill No, 25 - An Act respecting the City of Ottawa.
Bill No. 29 - An Act respecting the City of Toronto.

All of which is respectfully submitted,
Toronto, Tarch 25th, 1952. (Sgd.) \J . M. Nickle,
Chairman,

Introduction of Bills.
Orders of the Day,

BUDGET DEBATE
CLERK OF THE HOULE: 14th Order, resuming
the adjourned debate on the motion that the Speaker
do now leave the Chair, and that the House resolve
itself into the Committee of Supply.

m. H. C. NIXON (Bf-ant): Mr. Speaker, I
must thank the hon. Prime I''inister (I-r. Frost) for
calling this order so early in the afternoon, and not
leave me suffering on the hook for some hours, as he

A-3

did the Hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Oliver)
a couple of days ago. I do not know, Mr. opeaker, at
what stage in the experience of an hon. member he
looks forward with any degree of pleasure to making a
contribution in the form of a debate, but I am sure
the Hon. Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Kennedy) will
agree with me that it must be considerably longer than
either he or I have been in the House.

I do want to take this opportunity, even
though somewhat belatedly — to pay my respects to
you, Mr. Speaker, as this is the first time I have had
the floor. I want to congratulate you on your election
by the unanimous vote of this House as Speaker of the
24th Legislature, a position you held in the 23rd
Legislature, and the duties of which office you have
discharged so capably and acceptably. This is not an
honour which falls to the lot of many past Speakers
in the Province of Ontario, and I believe none at

Ottawa, where they are changed with every Government,
and this is an honour you well deserve,

I think I mentioned before the election
that with you in the Chair, I would be quite happy
to accept the custom which obtains in the I'other of

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A-4

Parliaments, and that j'-du should continue as Speaker,
irrespective of what Government might be in office,
I am very sorry indeed I did not have the opportunity
of showing how sincere I was, by seeing you elevated
to that position by the Liberal Government in office,
bmt I know you will accept my assurance in that regard,

Mr, Speaker, I am never one to complain of
the outcome of an election. Of course, I have not had
much reason personally to do so. However, I never am
unduly elated by the success of my party in a general
election. I know well how much responsibility goes
with the Government of the day. Nor am I unduly dejected
when my Party goes down to defeat, because there is always
another day coming.

The experiences of the past are always the best
guide to the future, and I remember very well after the
election of 1929, when Mr. Ferguson came back to this
House with 91 members out of 111. The House to-day
®eems a little over-crowded with "Tories" with only
79, so you can imagine what the situation was in 1929,
when we had 91 of them here, .If it is thought that
some of our members are a little too enthusiastic over
their victory at the present time, I would remind my
hon, friend (Mr. Frost) of former days, and ask him to

A-5

cast his mind back to the 1921 election, following
which there were 91 "Tories", and he will agree with
me, I am sure, that our present hon. friends are very-
mild and considerate indeed of the Opposition, compared
to the experiences we had in those days, when it was
almost as much as your life was worth to stand in your
place in Opposition and suggest that the Government
of that day might not have all the best policies any
government could assume.

I remember Mr. Ferguson telling a friend of
mine, when the campaign was on, that he was very fearful
there was not going to be any opposition at all. He
evidently liked the situation so little, when he came
back into the House with 91 members, that he resigned
very shortly afterwards. This is the thought I give
to the Hon. Prime Minister (Mr, Frost),

HON. T. L. KENNEDY (Minister of Agriculture):
It is simply wishful thinking.

MR. NIXON: At that time, Mr. Henry took over.
The next election rolled around in 1934, following
which there was not a single Conservative elected
from Toronto to Windsor, Even my good friend, the
Hon. Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Kennedy) went out

: 13

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A-6

with the tide. There was one non-Government member, Mr,
Lawrence of Hamilton, who was not opposed by a Liberal
candidate at the time, but he went out in the next elec-
tion when he was opposed. So judging from past history,
we have happy days ahead of us , indeed.

I have listened with a great deal of interest
to the addresses on the Debate in Reply to the Speech
from the Throne, particularly those from the new hon,
members. It is always a great pleasure to meet the
new members when they come into the Legislature, although
it is saddening, of course, to part with those who have
been colleagues of ours for so many years, I want to
take this opportimity of congratulating the new hon,
members of their successes in the election, and for
the splendid contributions they have made to the Debates
in Reply to the Speech from the Throne, I was particu-
larly interested, Mr, Speaker, in the references which
were made to the three new hon, members of this Legis-
lature who are sons of former Cabinet Ministers, I
knew their fathers very intimately, I was here when
they came in; I was here when they went out, and I
hope I may be here to welcome the third generation, if
and when they make their appearance in the House,

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A-7

although that may be asking a little too much of

«

Providence, and the electors.

The very mention of these former members
whose sons now succeed them in the House brings
to mind many interesting incidents. Certainly their
fathers, as Cabinet Ministers in two instances, and
as members of the Opposition, made very great contribu-
tions, indeed, to the Legislature, and to the development
of the Province of Ontario. Without exception they were
responsible for some tense moments in this House, and
I recall with a good deal of interest the occasions
on which they were the outstanding subjects of discus-
sion, and the events which followed on those occasions.
I was interested in the address by the hon. member for
Riverdale (Mr. l.acaulay) when he said he certainly was
not going to follow in his "Dad '^' footsteps, and be
confined in the tower, or even follow in his footsteps
toward opposition. I can assure the hon, member that
the confinement of his father in the tower was more
symbolic than real or actual. I remember very well,
as probably other hon. members in the House also
remember, when he was led down this floor by the
Sergeant -at -Arms of that day, an experience we have

•a o*i-

■ I . \. .i. :

k-B

never had before nor since, in my day.

Insofar as not following in his father's foot-
steps toward opposition, Mr. Speaker, I do not know
that I can sympathize with him in that suggestion, I
know that his worthy "Dad" did some splendid work in
Opposition. I know the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost)
would not, for anything, have missed the education and
opportunities he had in opposition. So, with the very

best wishes to my hon, friends, I hope that in the
not-too-distant future, they will have the opportunity
of serving as members of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition,
I was also greatly interested, and found myself
in complete agreement with the hon. member for Kingston
(Mr, Nickle) whose father, was a former Attorney-General
in the Province, and also in Opposition. He came into
the House, I think, in 1920 or 1921, and certainly per-
formed a very outstanding service in both capacities,
I found myself in complete agreement with the address
by the hon. member (Mr, Nickle) on the motion for a
reply to the Speech from the Throne, and on the St.
Lawrence Waterways as well. He mentioned the unnecessary
delays in our courts, Mr. Speaker, and just recently
I noticed that one of the municipalities in my own

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A-9

riding of Brant was complaining very bitterly of the
costs of court delays, mentioning that in one case the
delays had been repeated to such an extent that the
expense to the municipalities had amounted to the sum
of ^1100. and the case had not yet come to trial.
VJitnesses had been brought from considerable distances
at great expense, but the case never was tried. There
is certainly ground for improvement there. I think,
also, there is ground for improvement in our magistrates'
courts. I know of some experiences in my own riding
where adjournment followed adjournment, six
times, witnesses had been brought back and brought
back at great expense, and trouble, and the case when
it was finally called was disposed of by being thrown
out, in a matter of ten minutes. I think there is room
for improvement in the Act in administration of justice
in this regard.

It is a matter of great regret to me that at
this stage the House is denied the very competent ser-
vices of the former Liberal budget critic who fell by
the wayside in the fortunes, or misfortunes — as you
may view them — of the last Provincial election. Mr.
Brown was a chartered accountant with vast experience,
and made some very able suggestions and contributions s

A-10

in his three budget speeches ; however, the lot now falls*
upon your humble servant, although I am but little able
to fulfill the important duties thus assigned to me, if
I may borrow the words from your acceptance speech of
a few days ago. However, I will do my best to deal with
the astronomical figures which the Hon. Treasurer (Mr,
Frost) has placed before the House. He tells us this
is his 10th consecutive Budget speech, and I believe
that constitutes a record, although he did deliver two
of them in one year. I congratulate him on achieving
such a record. It is quite an achievement to live in
Government for ten years, with all the stresses and
responsibilities which go with the position,

I found myself in considerable agreement and
accord with many of his proposals. ' I am sure he
will pardon me if I do not take up too much of the
time of the House this afternoon in expressing those
points of agreement. After all, he managed to pat
himself on the back rather effectively, and he has some
77 other members who, I have no doubt, will take an
early opportunity to do the same. I am excepting
you, of course, ¥.r. Speaker. There are 78, and the
Hon. Treasurer (Mr, Frost), makes 79, I do
not wish to add to the nausea of the hon, member for

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A-11

Grey South (Mr. Oliver) who complained the other day
that he found the repetition of praise of the Govern-
ment very nauseating.

The Hon. Treasurer (Mr. Frost) has certainly
learned through his long years of experience how to
present a Budget in the most palatable way. ' • .
He knows just v;hich points to emphasize, and which
points to gloss over quickly. For instance, when he -
came to the question of debt and taxation — particularly
of debt — he said, "I now table statements of the gross
debt, the net debt, the funded debt, and the indirect
debt", and statements were simply placed upon the table,
I suggest to the Hon. Treasurer it would add greatly
to the interest of the hon. members of this House if,
at that point, he had given us the sum total, and the
increases in these debt statements. It would also
have saved me the trouble now of having to look them up to
bring them to the attention of the House, because
they are really interesting, and very pertinent to
the matter Vvhich is under discussion.

Mr, Speaker, I find in connection with the
gross debt, for instance, that it is now si'^34,000,000,
with an estimated increase for the current year of
(iil36,000,000. Those are very considerable sums of
money, indeed. The 0136,000,000 increase in the gross

A-12

debt in one year constitutes, I am sure he will agree,
a very substantial amount. Of course, ^100,000,000
is accounted for by the money borrowed in New York and
turned over to the Hydro. Had that money been bor-
rowed by the Hydro and guaranteed by the Province, it
would have been an addition to the indirect debt, so
there is not too much difference between the two forms
of debt, the gross debt and the indirect debt.

Coming to the estimated increase in the
net debt, which is now hi>569,000,000, with an estimated
increase for this year of ^47, 707,000, 'hat is really
an alarming figure, I presume it v;ill be reduced in
connection with the application of surplus, but the
increase for one year of ;;(i47,707,000 is a figure which
should be brought very emphatically to the attention
of this House, and the Province,

This is one form of debt about v;hich the Hon.
Treasurer (Mr. Frost) has always warned the Province. It
is a debt which must be paid by way of direct taxes
from the people.

(Take "B" follows.)

t:j ■'•.S.W Y

B-1

i

There are no compensating assets built up
that will automatically retire the debt by returning
revenue to the province, but here we have an increase
of forty-seven million dollars; the funded debt increased
by nearly one hundred million dollars and that is very
substantial. In the contingent liabilities, . which now
total practically five hundred million dollars, there is
an increase in that, Mr. Speaker, of seventy-seven and
one-half million dollars. V/hen this Government took
office, I think the indirect debt of the province was
about one hundred and twenty-two million dollars, vdiich
has now been increased to nearly five hundred million
dollars- I have heard the hon. Provincial Treasurer (Mr.
Frost) say, being a canny Scotsman from Victoria, he
learned very early in his experience, not to take other
people's notes. Certainly, as hon. Provincial Treasurer
of Ontario, he has taken over notes to the extent of the
difference between one hundred and twenty-two million
dollars and five hundred million dollars. As I have
pointed out, there is little difference, in fact, between
the debt of the province and its contingent liabilities
if, for any reason, any of your guaranteed notes or
bonds are not paid by the principal. That has happened
in the past. Ontario has to make them good. The
question in regard to our Hydro issue, I assinae, is
as to what will be to the best

(Page B-2 follows.)

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B-2

advantage for the Hydro and the province, whether the
Hydro borrows their own raoney, guaranteed by the
province, or whether the province issues their own
bonds and hands the money over to the Hydro. It is
interesting to note that the last Hydro issUe of 4 per
cent bonds was . at the time there were Ontario 4 per
cent bonds which had been issued shortly before and
which were selling at a premium. V/hen the Hydro issue
came along at 4 per cent, it was sold at a discount.
I think there may be some explanation as to how
they account for the fact that the straight provincial
bond was selling at a premium, whereas the Hydro bond
was selling at a discount.

It is also worthy of note and of bringing to
the attention of the House that for the first time in
over twenty years, the Government of Ontario went into
the United States market for new money and secured some
one hundred million dollars at 3-^ per cent.
That may look very attractive at this time, IJlx,
Speaker, but we have all gone through the sad ex-
perience in the past where it cost Ontario plenty of
money to discharge her obligations in Nev/ York, when
American funds were at a premium and our own money at
a discount. It was held for some years arbitrarily
at 10 per cent, but we have seen the discount against

B-3

Canadian funds much greater than that. I hope that
will not be a policy of the Government to secure funds
in foreign countries, if it is possible to secure them
at reasonable rates in the province of Ontario, The
day may well come v/hen some future Government may bind it-
self to paying these monies and having to find American
funds at a very considerable premium.

To get some idea of the debt of the province,
I think it is fair to add the gross debt and the
contingent liabilities v/toich total up to one billion,
four hundred and eight million dollars. I remember
predicting many years back, with the way the
expenditures and the debt of the province was mounting,
I would live to see the day the debt would be one
billion dollars, although at the time I doubted if that
would happen, to Old Man Ontario. However, I find these
debts are approaching one billion, three hundred million
dollars. At this time I suggest we should pause and
take stock.

The hon. Provincial Treasurer (Mr. Frost) has
received some honorary degrees from universities such
as Ll.D*; and I might suggest that we give him a degree
here of Ph.D., honorary or otherwise, because of his
experience with debts, as he has certainly piled
them higher and deeper.

B-4

I sat in this House for some years when the
hon. Provincial Treasurer (Mr. Frost) was in Opposition.
I can imagine what he would have been able to do v/ith
a statement such as that, Mr. Speaker, he vifould have
had this House believing that we were just a very short
jump ahead of the sheriff, if not absolutely bankrupt.

Let me remind you briefly of the financial
condition of the province at the time the hon. Provincial
Treasurer (Mr. Frost) took over. He delights to boast
he has had nothing but surpluses in all his experience
and it is a very pleasant situation to experience as
hon. Provincial Treasurer of Ontario. He took over that
important Department at a time v;hen our financial
condition was very good, and the Department of the
Provincial Treasurer was staffed with most competent
officials. In the last budget address delivered by the
Honourable St. Clair Gordon on March 19, 1943, these v/ere
the comparable statementswhich iir . Gordon gave to the
House at that time. The indirect debt showed a re-
duction of t^ro million, three hundred thousand dollars;
the funded debt showed a reduction of nine million
dollars; the net debt showed a reduction of three
million, eight hundred and fifty-three thousand dollars
and gross debt showed a reduction of twenty million,
seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars. That, was

fn

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..^V" W >!

B-5

an OYer-all situation to which- the hen. Provincial
Treasurer (I/ir. Frost) does not like to refer, very
much. Ke has been doing his budgeting on an over-all
basis, but that year we had an over-all surplus of
tv/enty million, seven hundred thousand dollars. The
hon. Provincial Treasurer (Ivlr. Frost) takes great credit
for evolving a policy of applying the surplus to the
reduction of debt. There are only tv;o ways a sur-
plus can be used,, to reduce the debt or to reduce
taxation and it is a matter of option v/ith the Government,
Most Governments like to use their surplus to reduce
debt; in Opposition, they demand that the surplus be
used to reduce taxation.

I was rather interested in an article in the
Windsor Star, about the new "Tory" definition;

"There is a new definition of the 'Tory',
The 'Tory* is a man who condemns the
Dominion Government for having a surplus,
but praises the Ontario Government for
having a surplus,"

Of course, our ''"Tory"friends at Ottawa have been
fairly raving over the surpluses of hon, Mr, Abbott, but
the hon. Provincial Treasurer (iJlr. Frost) takes great
credit for the surplus we have here. Down there, they
want the taxes reduced, of course, but here the Govern-
ment wants to apply it to the reduction of debt. There

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B-6

we have the tv^ro comparative pictures. There was a
reduction In all of the debt at the time the hon.
Provincial Treasurer (Mr. Frost) took over the reins of
office, and now there is an Increase, a very substantial
increase.

The hon. Provincial Treasurer (Mr, Frost)
speaks a great deal about paying off the old debt in
fifty years. I wish he v/ould explain to me when a
debt becomes old. A debt before you took office?' j^ debt
from another Government? Or last year's debt? Debt is
debt, Mr. Speaker, as far as the province is concerned,
and I do not think it has ever been outlawed. It has
been repudiated. We have seen that in the experiences
of the provinces of Canada. This is nothing new, • .
the paying off a debt with debt retirement funds. I
remember back in 1926, v/hen Col. William Price v:as
hon. Provincial Treasurer, he brought in a very
elaborate debt retirement scheme and a certain sum v\;as
to be set aside each year to retire a portion of the
debt, so all the debt would be retired in thirty years.
The new bonds were to be serial so they would retire
themselves automatically, and he was going to retire the
debt, even if he had to borrow money to do it. That is
what it amounted to, because the debt v;as very con-
siderably higher when he left office than when he came in.

o ■ J-'.'-'

■ta.C

B-7

The idea of these serial bonds was scuttled as being
impracticable.

Then v/e come to the question of surpluses and
here again the Government claims a very substantial
surplus of twenty-six million, one hundred and seventy-
two thousand dollars before providing for sinking funds.
Less provision for sinking funds, twenty-five million,
two hundred and seventy-six thousand dollars, leaving a
surplus of eight hundred and ninety-six thousand dollars.
There does not seem to be any definite policy. I do
not see how these figures are arrived at except by an

arbitrary decision of the hon. Provincial Treasurer
(Mr. Frost). He might just as well state that the

twenty-six million, one hundred and seventy-two thousand
dollars was surplus, or he could have said there is
only one dollar to be carried forward into surpluses to
say that he had a balanced budget. It was learned by the
Government some years ago that it was unpopular tc declare
a very large surplus, at that time I think about twenty-
five million dollars; that it looked much better to change
the bookkeeping system and have the surplus paid into
the debt retirement fund and declare a very small
surplus of a few hundred thousand dollars. As I
pointed out, that can be reduced to one dollar and all
the rest paid into the debt retirement fund.

B-8

Of course, these figures are not final,
because this is only the actual for ten months and
estimated for two months. In past experience, judging
from public accounts and auditors' reports, even the
estimate of two months* revenue is many millions of dollars

different from the actual. In the last report, I
think you will find in the year ending the 31st of March,
i951, there v/as fourteen million dollars more money
received than the hon. Provincial Treasurer (Mr. Frost)
estimated there would be v/hen he presented his Budget
Address* and estimated the last ^vro months of revenues.
We v/ill not know until the public accounts are presented
next year, and we get the auditors' report the extent to
which the actual revenues have exceeded the hon.
Provincial Treasurer's (Mr. Frost) estimate at this
stage. I raight suggest in passing that the Department
might very well have these public accounts issued and
distributed to the hon, members before v/e come to the
next Session of this Legislature, V/hen the hon.
Provincial Treasurer (Mr. Frost) was in Opposition,
he got the public accounts every year in November. If
they were not forthcoming . the first of November, he
objected very strenuously. Surely it should not take

his Department ten months to get your public accounts
out for this year, which ends in a fev; days. I can

B-9

assure you that out on the farm it would make very
interesting reading in the early part of the winter,
to have the public accounts available for that year,
^A'hen v.e get them here, they are ancient and we are
occupi3d with other activities, v/e have not time to
give them the study v.'e could if they were issued
in November of the year that has just closed.
Another matter I wanted to bring to the
attention of the hon. Provincial Treasurer (Mr, Frost)

-- and I have done this bef9ro ,■ is the question

of calling the bonds of the province before redemption,
tv;o or three years before they come due. That causes
considerable embarrassment to small holders of bonds
in the province. V/hen I objected to it before, the
Dominion Government was calling a bond issue and they
were advertising it on the radio at frequent intervals.
It was widely advertised in the Press .that they were
paying $101.00 for a $100.00 bond. The small holder
does not see these advertisements, even if they are
issued, and sometimes they are not issued very
prominently, if at all. The only time you find that
your bond has been called and that interest payments
are no longer being paid, is when you present the
coupons for payment and the bank cashes them and, of
course, this sort of money is spending money, like manna

. i; ■ J MA.

■/■"' .

■t! 3I'

B-10

from heaven. In the course of a few weeks, you get a
notice from the bank that the bond has been called
six or eight months before and you will kindly make
good the monies that have been paid you, and you are put
to that loss and embarrassment. The Government actually
gets the use of the money for ten months for nothing, at
the expense of the very patriotic citizens who have
bought your bonds. There may be some excuse for calling
bonds for redemption if it is provided for in the bond, as
of course it is, and it bears a high rate of interest,
and you can borrow money for a much lower rate of interest.
But why you are calling a bond for redemption that bears
3-g- per cent or 3i per cent, when you are paying 4 per cent
for money and calling it three years before it is due,
is beyond my understanding. I wish the hon. Provincial
Treasurer (Tylr. Frost), at an early opportunity, would
explain the financial advantages of this procedure.
On this occasion, they did advertise quite prominently
the fact that they are calling this issue for redemption,
a 3-|- per cent bond, and no interest would accrue after
the first day of May, 1952. The bond itself becomes
due the first of May, 1955. It is probably quite true
that holders of registered bonds of the province in
large quantities would naturally be advised ,but I know
from sad personal experience that the holder of a bond

B-11

or two of an unregistered nature does not find this
out until he actually has to make good the coupon
payments he has received,

Mr. Speaker, in the estimates that are before
the House for consideration, we find the gross estimate
of four hundred and thirteen million, six hundred and
twenty-seven thousand dollars. That is divided into
money to be voted, two hundred and thirty-nine million
dollars, and statutory, one hundred and seventy-four
and one-half million dollars. This is, of course, by
long odds the largest gross expenditure that any
Government has ever estimated before or has ever asked
the House to pass upon.

(T.IKE "C" FOLLOWS)

C-1

A.s the Hon. Treasurer suggested in his Budget
Speech, we might very well ask wherein is the economy
where such vast sums are recommended for our approval?
I want to also register a complaint about the
amount which is statutory, :ipl74,400,000. Mr, Speaker,
Legislatures of the past have praced the Stati^tes on
the books which give the Government a blarjl> cheque
with regard to this vast sum of money, nearly
spl75,000,000, so that these present hon, members have
nothing whatever to do with the voting of this money.
It is statutory, and is provided for by the Statutes
which have been passed. I doubt v^-^y much if the
hon, members of that day always appreciated they were
giving the Government a blank cheque for all time to
come, to spend these monies which were not voted by
the House. I do suggest in every instance where a
measure has this effect, the hon, members should be
told the Statute, if it is passed, will provide for
the expenditure of monies, in a statutory way, without
the action of future Legislatures. As an example of
the extent to which this has been carried, may I call
attention to the fact that of the .h'99,000,000 which
will be provided for the Department of Highways, only
v4, 500,000 is presented to us, representing monies to
people voted by this Legislature, 4p4, 500,000 out of

C-2

^#100,000,000 brings us nearly to the point where it is
scarcely worth v;hile for the votes to be put before the
hon. members at all. You might as well say, "All
highway expenditures are statutory, and the members
are not concerned with the places in which the money
will be Tspent."

Other provinces have not found it necessary
to carry this policy to the extreme v/hich Ontario has,
and even if there is no way of re-taking the ground
which has already been lost, I suggest that any legis-
lation of this kind in the future, should make it
plain to the hon, members that they are robbing them-
selves of the right they undoubtedly have to vote the
money in future.

In e stimating the revenues for this year, the
Hon, Treasurer has been rather pessimistic again, as he
has been in the past. The auditors' report of public
accounts shows that those were much higher than had
been estimated by the Hon, Treasurer a year ago, I
suppose the same will occur in the current year, be-
cause that has been the experience in the past.

Let us consider, for instance, the interim
statement of our revenues, which is ten months actual
and two months forecast, and we find the actual tax
receivfd was oVl million dollars, while the estimate

'*^&^v B ,V^'3'"i-

C-3

was ^6^5 million dollars. That was much closer than
the Treasurer has been in the habit of coming, so I
presume he is improving with age and experience.

The Liquor Board revenue, ^1^42 million dollars,
I think the estimate was ^39 million dollars, an increase
of three million dollars in this case, I wonder if there
is set out in the budget speech any statement which shows
the amount of money which was left in the till at the
Liquor Board, because it has been the practice in the
past to leave large sums there, Mr. Speaker, for what
is called "stabilization of revenue", I think a year
ago there was the sum of four million dollars, a very
considerable sum in any case, and I believe the total
amount which was held by the Liquor Board for "stabili-
zation of revenue" was ^>14, 600,000. I, for one,
would be very much interested in knowing how much money
there is in the till at the Liquor Board at the present
t ime .

im, FROST (Prime Minister): Just the same
amount; no increase,

MR, NIXON: No increase? Are you satisfied
that money should not be turned in to the Treasury of
the Province of Ontario, rather than remain there
year after year? Surely, Mr, Speaker, the trans-
actions of each year should stand on their own feet,

C-4

and the profits of the Liquor Board should be turned
over to the Treasurer of the Province of Ontario.

I might add that even the revenue of ,^42
million dollars from the Liquor Board seems to me a
very substantial sum of money. I can remember, in
former days, when we reported revenues of ^14 fcl'llion
Or -#16 million, Mr. Drew rose in his place and damned
the Budget as a "Fool's Budget", I do not know what
he would call a Budget showing a revenue of y!+2 million
of which ,A4,600,000 v/as still in the till of the
Liquor Board^ and had not been placed into the hands
of the Provincial Treasurer.
The Speaker retired, Mr. Downer in the Chair,

IIR. NIXON: I suggest that the Province is
doing fairly v^e]l financially from the Liquor Board,
the way we ars carrying on at the present time, and
I hope that the Government will consider very well
indeed before they permit an extended policy of
advertising of liquors in this Province of Ontario,
as I have heard suggested. I can assure you it
would not be with my approval, if it is brought
about .

In regard to succession duties; the revenue
expected^ ;^19, 500,000; the Budget was for ,pl5,500,000,
four million dollars' difference in this Department —

C-5

over the estimate period. But it is in regard to
corporation taxes particularly, that the Hon, Treasurer
under-estimated the revenue by a very substantial
amount. We now expect to get ,^90 million, with two
months' forecast, where the estimate was .1)71,500,000.
That is ij^lS, 500,000 received from corporation taxes
over and above what was anticipated by the Hon, Treasurer
a year ago. That is a very substantial amount, indeed.
The corporation was really turning the money in to
the Treasurer in a big way. It is this over-receipt
of 0lS,5OO,OOO that has made it possible for the Hon.
Treasurer to show the favourable picture he did, when
he compares the money received by collecting our own
taxes — corporation and succession duties -- with
the renting of these fields to the Federal Government
under a tax rental agreement plan. Had it not been
for this •.■i;lS,500,000 he would not have had such a
good picture to present. I suggest that possibly the
buoyant state of the corporation tax is, in no small
measure, due to the vast sums of money being spent
by the Government of Canada in defence expenditures.
So we are profiting from the expenditures made necessary
for defence purposes at Ottawa,

Here we have a total revenue of ^293 million;

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C-6

the estimate was for ;i>256 million, or an under-estiraation
by !ii)37 million. I suggest there can be some improvement
in the budget estimates, if my hon, friend (Mr. Frost)
capable Department could come closer to it than
#37 million.

In connection with the corporation tax; there
seems to be a feeling that this is almost manna from
heaven, that the corporations are without sou].s; that
there is no easier way in the world to get money than
from the corporations by way of taxation, but taxes
have now become so high on corporations, that every
increase, Mr, Speaker, is simply adding value to
the selling prices of their products, and they become
direct taxes on the consumers of those products,

I was very muck interested in an editorial
in the March 19th issue of the Globe & Mail in connec-
tion with the demand for increased rates by the
Consumers' Gas Company. The demand is for 2^%
increase. The editorial says:

"The Consumers' Gas Company estimates that
the 25 per cent increase will bring additional
gross revenue of ,^2,325,889. Of this, no less
than ^^1,542,935 — or 54.6 per cent — will
go for Federal and Provincial corporation
taxes, leaving ,^1, 2^2, 954 — or 45.4 per cent
— for the company. In other words, the
company must charge an extra twenty-eight
cents in order to have the use of an 'extra
twelve cents.

f.i.V

C-7

Much of the same situation was brought out
at the time of the telephone rate increases.
The new rates granted the Bell Telephone
Company in Ontario and ^,uebec are expected
to give it additional gross revenue of
■„il4,339,000. But more than half of this —
>?, 327,000 — will go to Federal and Provin-
cial tax collectors, leaving ,136,512,000 for
the company. In other words, it must charge
an extra fourteen cents in order to have the
use of an extra six cents. The railways are
in an identical position. Included in every
freight increase is a substantial tax increase
for Federal and Provincial Governments. The
railways get what is left over.

The public, which complains about all such
increases, should understand this. It should
realize that taxes have reached the level
where an increase can no longer be absorbed,
but must be passed along to the public in
the form of, or as part of, a price increase.
In short, taxes are prices; and constitute the
chief factor in the new price of gas,"

So we, by "going it alone" are duplicating
the corporation taxes, and we are adding very consider-
ably to the inflationary spiral, and the increased
costs of the production of goods necessary for all
our taxpayers.

I am, of course, in accord with and welcome
the increased assistance to municipalities, and the
increased assistance to our school section. But I
notice, on careful study, the municipalities do not
find the increase quite the bonanza they thought it
would be, and in some cases it will not even meet
the demands for the increased mill rate which they

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have to meet.

^■Jith regard to the payments to the municipa-
lities of what are, in reality, taxes on crown
properties, and assessment of those properties by
the I'unicipal Board; I do not see why the assessment
should not be made by the regular itssessment Commission-
er of the municipality, nor why we should have the
Government assess its own properties, with the fight
of appeal from that assessment to the Municipal Board,
which is a creature of the same Department that is
going to make the assessment.

Frankly, I say that I am not too enthusiastic
about the payments of taxes on the Parliament Buildings
here in the City of Toronto, After all, Mr. Speaker,
this is the Crown; this is the Legislative Assembly,
and is the property of every citizen of the Province
of Ontario, and every citizen is contributing to the
costs of this Legislature, and the Legislative Buildings
by way of taxes, directly or indirectly. While I cannot
present any strong arguments, I do feel that it is
offensive to the proprieties of the situation, that
this building should pay taxes to the City of Toronto,
It is all right to pay taxes on the Liquor Board Build-
ing, or the Hydro Building, but somehow or other I

c-9

resent the paying of taxes on the Parliament Buildings,
Every municipality, I feel, has an equal right and an
equal interest in the Parliament Buildings of the
Province of Ontario, and I suggest that there might
be some second thought given to that matter. Certainly
the establishing of the Parliament Buildings in this
city, and the making of Toronto the capital city of
the Province^ has brought untold millions of dollars
to the Province, and has added immeasurably to the
growth of the city, and the city has unquestionably
derived very great advantages from being the capital
city of the Province of Ontario,

Ifhen in our Liberal amendment we suggested
to the House there should be increased assistance to
the municipalities, we little thought that it would be
so quickly carried into effect, from the reception it
received at that time.

(Take "D" follows)

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I was going to suggest to the hon. Minister
{Mr. Challies) he might consider the payment of taxes
on those great power lines that extend through our
municipalities. I think with the new transmission
lines you are providing from Niagara, you are
actually buying the right-of-way where previously the
right-of-way still belonged to the farmer who received
some consideration, very inadequate in most instances,
for the erection of the towers. This would provide
much needed revenue to many municipalities? and I think
it should be just as favourably considered as the pay-
ments of taxes on office buildings. Municipalities
receive no benefit because of these great transmission
lines passing through their municipality. I do not
suggest that the lines which' distribute paver to the users
of the commodity are in the same position at all.

In our own municipality, v/e expect this coming
year to have the Imperial Oil place their pipe-line under-
ground, that is the pipe-line now extending from Sarnia
to London, and which will this year be extended on to
the city of Toronto. They are paying taxes to the
municipalities through v/hich they go and what they
will pay in crossing the ordinary one hundred acres,
will practically equal the tax on that one hundred
acres. In our own municipality, we expect some four

■;;^i; I.

D-2

thousand dollars for this pipe-line which will be forty-
inches underground.

I might point out to the hon. Minister of
Mines (IVIr. Gemmell) that the Imperial Oil finds it
possible to build this pipe-line from Sarnia to Toronto
without any powers of expropriation whatever. I did
not like too Vv^ell the legislation v;hich was passed
in this House a couple of years ago giving the gas
companies the full pov/ers of expropriation in laying
gas pipe-lines. It is certainly proven in this instance
that it is not necessary to give these corporations
the same powers of expropriation that the Crown likes
to take for itself. Incidentally, the value of good
public relations might be shown in this case. In one
instance, when one farmer refused to accept the settle-
ment offered, they were able to vary the directions
slightly and go to another farmer and he said, "V/hy,
sure, after all the pleasures I have had for years
in listening to the Imperial Oil hockey broadcasts,
you can cross my place for nothing". That just shows
the value of good public relations,

Mr. Speaker, it is not my intention to detain
the House at any greater length. I had some brief
comments I wanted to make in connection with the
Department of Reform Institutions, the Department over

D-3

which I had considerable to-do for some thirteen years,
but as the hon. Minister (Mr. Foote) is absent to-day,
I would like to reserve my comments on that for the
Estimates,

I am very glad to see our new hon. Minister
of Education (Mr. Dunlop) in his place. I want to
congratulate him not only on his appointment to this
important portfolio, but on his very outstanding success
in the election. It goes to shov; that long experience
in elections is not necessary to obtain a very handsome
majority, certainly not in Eglinton riding, anyway.
In this also, I commend the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost)
in finally getting around to the point of adding a full-
time hon. Minister of Education to his Government. We
will not quarrel with you any longer on that basis, I
was rather amused during the election when there was
a proposal that the hon. Ministers might be reduced in
numbers to ten. The hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost)
held up his hand^in horror and said, "V/hy, it would
make the Department of Education a part-time job for
some Minister", In all the years of Tory Governments
in this province, up to last October, I believe the
important . Department of Education was a part-time job,

I want also to congratulate the hon. Minister
of Public V(?orks {¥ix. Thomas). I have always had a rather

o c .

D-4

fatherly interest in him. I was a member of the

Government away back in 1920 when he was first appointed

to the public service after graduating from the Ontario

Agricultural College, and I have watched his good work

in the public service and as a member of the Legislature,

with much interest and approval. V/e will follow with

interest, his contributions to the province as hon.

Minister of Public Works and we expect great things of him.

In connection with the Department of Education,

I was very much interested in an address delivered by

the hon. Minister of Education (Mr. Dunlop ) in Toronto,

some weeks ago, on February 19. He v/as speaking to the

Association of Rural Municipalities and 'ims quoted.. .

in part :

"Dr. Dunlop predicted that the era of lavish
spending on education has gone and the return
of the teaching of the three R's is in the
offing. Some school boards were spending far
too much money, we must nov/ start to spend
wisely."

Well, the inference is that we have not been

spending too wisely, I take it.

" — and practice the old virtue of economy.
Perhaps we have too much in the way of fancy
subjects taught in our schools and have gone
too far av;ay from the actual material needed.

School children realize that they will not
obtain much in life without hard work. He
v/ould like to see more competition in work

D-5

in the class rooms V ' . ^ ■

Dr. Dunlop, in speaking of useless spending
of some boards, mentioned that to his knowledge, some
school buildings have been torn down when they still had
several years of service left. School pupils in some
districts v;ere dwindling but a little wise thinking for
the future v/ould have prevented mansions being built
v/hich will be empty in a few years.

That very interesting address fairly electrified
the province and it seems to me it indicates a complete
right -about-face on the part of the Government policy if
he were speaking of Government policy, which we assume
he was. It would certainly indicate to me that the
Department of Education to-day regards many of the
schools, very costly schools that have been built, as
unnecessary expense, in fact, are mansions, as the hon.
Minister (Mr. Dunlop) says, and much of this has really
been wasted, I have wondered for some years, Mr. Speaker,
if I were reactionary and out. of step v;ith the times or
if the Department and tbe sohool-boards were running wild
in their expenditures. I think I brought to the
attention of the House some time ago an incident where
a school in Toronto installed stage ecLUipment costing
$53,000. To an ordinary rural citizen, it would seem
like a colossal extravagance to instal such equipment.

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1-; yi/jr-XJ ^n:*- rf^-ivy

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h-^if

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D-6

It was not the stage, it was the ec[uipment-, lighting
and so on that cost :)53,000. If municipalities'
school boards spend money in that way, I have not too
much S3rmpathy with them when they come complaining that
their grants are being lowered, I noticed in to-day's
paper that the School Board in Toronto is complaining
that their grant is now dovm from 12 per cent,

Afev; years ago, they thought they were going
to get 50 per cent of the amount of money spent for
education whichv/as assessed on real estate. I do not
need to remind some hon. members in the House of the occasion
on which that 50 per cent was suggested to them as the
Conservative policy of the day, v/hich in no small
measure accounted for the return of that Government.
It is, however, of interest to note that this 50 per
cent Toronto expected to get > has now dwindled down
to 12 per cent. I can point out other authorities
besides the hon. Minister of Education (Mr. Dunlop)
who feel that our educational policy in the last few
years has been wrong, that v/e have been following
false gods, that, in any case, the end v/e arrived at
was not the one v;e desired. Having quoted the hon.
Minister (Ivir, Dunlop) , I might even quote his pre-
decessor when he said:

"In recent years, Ontario's secondary schools
have been turning out students v/ho can act

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D-7

in plays, cheer at football games, but cannot
v/rite or spell properly and read nothing but
crime comics."

That v;as the present hon. Attorney General
(Mr. Porter).

MR. PORTER: My successor has not apparently
changed the policy too much since my time.

MR. NIXON: I thought you were a bit extreme
for saying "nothing but crime comics". You do not
still say they read nothing but crime comics?

i/IR. PORTER: V/ell, I do not go that far.

IVIR. NIXON: That is what you are quoted as

having said. I do not want the crime comics, I can

assure you of that, and I do not believe our young people

read nothing but crime comics.

This very same Association which the hon.

Minister (Mr. Dunlop) addressed this year, the hon.

Minister of Agriculture (Mr, Kennedy) addressed a year

ago, and he said then:

"Many farmers are leaving farms due to
high taxes and other costs, and I do not
blame them too much."

Too much of the educational tax which is

now 50 percent of the total tax, will soon be 75 per

cent, if paid by the farmer. In England, they have a

^stem of taxing vhere all farmers' buildings are taxe ,

but his land is not. Other countries have adopted this

D-8

system and I think we in Canada will adopt it before
long. We are certainly going to do something about it
and I do suggest to the hon. Minister of Education
{Mx. Dunlop) and the hon. Minister of Agriculture (Mr,
Kennedy) that they hasten these reforms that are
promised, because it may be later than they think,
I hope to live to see the day v/hen our school policy
is restored to the essentials, that many of these frills
such as have been suggested, $53,000. worth of stage
eq_uipment, etc., aredone av/ay with. If you provide
$53,000, worth of stage equipment, you surely cannot
complain if your pupils can act in plays. You would
not be making the best use of it, if they did not.
I think there is plenty of room for economy in education
without any loss of its effectiveness to the pupils
and much betterment in the educational system.

I can continue my approach to it by referring to report
by Dr. Sidney Smith of the University of Toronto but I
will not take the time this afternoon. It is very
familiar, in any case, to every hon. member, as it was
given v/ide publicity. This v/as when some sixty-five
per cent of the pupils in an English course failed to
get fifty per cent of the marks in what appeared to
be a very easy examination indeed. He said that steps
must be taken to make sure that illiteracy no longer

'v-JT'i-' '" ■ ■

D-9

i

dwells in easy partnership with the holding of a
University degree, I am sure we are all behind him in
that.

Just one moment on the Federal taxation
proposal and I am finished. This has also received a
great deal of discussion in the Legislature for five
or six years. The hon. Provincial Treasurer (Mr. Frost)
made some reference to it in his Budget Speech but he
left his position and the position of the Government very
indefinite as to v/hat should be done. You know, Mr.
Speaker, the hon. Provincial Treasurer (Mr. Frost) has
such nice words to sa:/ on these issues but his action?
are so completely contrary to the direction in which his
words point, that one scarcely knows what to make of io.

(TAKE "E" FOLLOW.'S)

E-1

Certainly at the conference in Ottawa in
1950, his speeches were most encouraging, and we were
all very proud of him, and we looked forward to Ontario
taking her place with at least eight other provinces
in the Dominion, when these new tax proposals came
up for decision,

I have here an excerpt from his address,
in which he said:

"We believe that ways and means of either
assigning or shajring the fields of taxation
can be devised which will be mutually satis-
factory to the Federal Government, as well as
to the Provinces, After all, such recommenda-
tions earry with them the realization that
both Federal and Provincial taxes come from
the same source, namely the Canadian taxpayers.
The big job of the Government, whether it be
Federal, Provincial or municipal, is to
provide the services the people v/ant, with
the greatest amount of efficiency, and at
the lowest possible cost. Taking the long-
term view, the answer is to be found by
allocating the responsibilities of all tax-
payers to carry out this responsibility to
the Government thalt is able to do the job."

I recognize that might be idealistic, but
taking the long-term view, which probably we do not
consider here at this present time, it seems to me
that is the answer, if we look 25 or 35 years ahead
from where we sit to-day.

In his Budget Speech of last Thursday, he
had these nice things to say:

E-2

"We in Ontario must be ever-mindful of the
fact that the prosperity of this Canada of
ours is all of one piece — indivisible,
V7e cannot morally or wisely grasp prosperity
with one hand, and with the other strive to
impede the progress of our brother Canadians
in other provinces. As Ontario prospers, so
must Canada prosper,"

I asked the Hon. Treasurer if any approach
had been made to open discussions or conversations at
a high level with the authorities at Ottawa in con- •
nection with the new offer which was made last January.
He gave me the usual bland "brush-off" by saying,
"VJe are talking with Ottawa on various matters all the
time." I did not get the impression — and 1 do not
think this Province has — that Ontario intends to do
anything tov;ard entering into an agreement v.'-ith the
Federal authorities since the offer was made last
January,

Mr. Speaker, eight other provinces have
entered into agreements of this kind for five years,
and they seem to have been very well pleased with
their experiences, indeed.

As soon as the offer was received in British
Columbia, the Conservative Treasurer in the then
coalition government, hastened to Ottawa end negotia-
ted a new agreement, and I see it was evidently very
favourably received by the Press in British Columbia.

E-3

A Victoria columnist, on January 17th, wrote:

"Finance Minister Anscombe has negotiated in
Ottawa a new Dominion-Provincial Tax Agreement
which, if accepted by the Legislature, would
yield to the Province in the new year ten
million dollars more than the year now closing,
about :54,500,000 more than the Dominion Govern-
ment offered in the discussions. The deal thus
has the appearance of being highly advantageous
to British Columbia."

Mr, Anscombe was so delighted with the deal he

had negotiated at Ottawa, that he hurried home and gave

the details to the Press without bothering to consult

his Prime Ilinister, Mr, Johnston, or the Coalition

Government, of vjhich he was a member, and Mr, Johnston,

the Prime Minister, was so put out at the action of

his Treasurer that he "fired"him out of hand, which

was the cause of the breaking-up of the Coalition

Government. Should the Hon. Prime Minister (Mr,

Frost) of this Province, in his dual capacity of

Prime Minister and Provincial Treasurer, go down to

Ottawa and conclude what we think would be a fair

and advantageous agreement, he would not be open to

the same danger into which Mr, Anscombe ran when he

vrent home from Ottawa, Mr, Anscombe said, of course,

that Mr. Johnston was simply jealous of the fact that

his Treasurer had concludeda deal which was so much

better than anybody else had been able to arrange,

and that was the reason he was "fired", and it was

■^H*X0"

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E-4

not the reason given by Mr. Johnston, that it was
because he did not consult the Government before he
gave the details to the Press. Evidently British
Columbia was more than satisfied with the tentative
agreement which had been negotiated.

I noticed a year ago an address by Hon. Mr,
Garson, the present Minister of Justice who was, I
believe, the Premier of Manitoba when the first agree-
ment was entered into. He said "the Manitoba Tax Agree-
ment with the Federal Goverranent has transformed the
Province from one with the highest tax and the biggest
debt, to one with the lowest tax and the smallest per
capita debt." He recalled that at the recent Dominion-
Provincial Conference, the Federal Government had
offered to renew this tax agreement, but had increased
the minimum payments.

I earnestly hope that the Government of
Ontario will accept the invitation to at least open
discussions and negotiations on a high level with
the Rt. Hon. Minister of Finance at Ottawa (Mr.
Abbott), and see if it is not possible, for the next
five years, to go ahead in step with the other
Provinces of Canada. I have already suggested —
and I firmly believe — that the buoyant nature of

E-5

our revenue, particularly in regard to corporation
taxes, is in no small way due to the vast expenditures
by the Dominion Government for defence purposes.

The Hon, Treasurer has in the past referred
to what he calls our "unfortunate experiences"*^ in
conferences at Ottawa, and said that we lost millions
of dollars for the Province of Ontario when we entered
into a war-time tax agreement, although he, himself,
voted for it when it was passed by the Legislature,
and he was then in Opposition. Certainly I have no
apology to offer to this House for having been a party
to negotiating that agreement.

(Page E-6 follows)

E-6

V/e got enough to see us through. That is a sure thing.
As I pointed out In the very attractive budget state-
ment given by Mr. Gordon in 1943, we got as much as
we would have got under peaceful peacetime conditions
and I question the propriety or the right of the
Province of Ontario to fatten its treasury pockets by
the wartime expenditures of the Federal Government
which were being poured out in such vast sums of
money running into, I think, well over four billion
dollars, and this year, Mr. Speaker, the Federal
Government will spend $2,100,000,000 in defence ex-
penditures alone and I think it would be infinitely
better if Ontario would go along hand in hand with
the other Provinces of Canada and see the Dominion
through this crisis, in any case. The new offer
w.ould pay us, I believe, $137 million the first year,
Mr. Speaker. That is certainly very substantially ,
higher than anything ever considered before, and I
trust that action will be taken along this line.

In any case, Mr. Speaker, I want to be on
record five years from now as having advocated such
a procedure, and I close my remarks in this Debate
by moving the following motion, seconded by the
hon. <eader of the Opposition (Mr. Oliver):

That the Motion "That Mr. Speaker do now
leave the Chair and the House .resolve .Itself
into Committee of Supply" be amended by adding
thereto the following:

. T rf.

E-7

But this House regrets that the Govern-
ment of Ontario has not taken definite action
to initiate discussions on a tax agreement
under the new offer of the Government of
Canada for a five-year period beginning
April 1, 1952.

-Mr. Downer leaves the Chair,
-Mr. Speaker in the Chair.

(Take ''F" follows

F-1

MR. T. D. THOMAS (Ontario): May I first con-'
gratulate the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) on his
ninth budget speech. I agree that it is quite a
record for any man to deliver in this Assembly nine
budget speeches in succession. It is a performance
which may not be equalled for some time. I have had
the pleasure of listening to four budget speeches in
the Assembly. Of course they are becoming more lengthy
and expansive. One thing which I believe the hon.
Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) should appreciate is this:
his speech was listened to with great interest by all
hon. members in the House -- even the Opposition did
not interrupt him during the course of his remarks.
In fact the Opposition gave him complete freedom, al-
though sometimes he interjected some caustic compari-
sons respecting previous administrations. I do hope
the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) will be reasonable
and extend to Opposition members the freedom given
him last Thursday, for free speech is one of the
cornerstones of our democracy, and an hon. member
should have the right and privilege to say out loud
what he really thinks, with the minimum of inter-
ruption.

I am interested in money, of course, and I
am sure we shall all be Interested when we receive
our indemnity some day next week.

The hon. Prime Minister's remarks on the
economic position. in Ontario and in the country as a
whole were most Interesting and illuminating. One

F-2

or two points in particular which he made require,
I think, some comment.

The hon. Prime Minister referred to the large
proportion of private and public investment in
Ontario, amounting in the past year to 21 cents out
of every dollar spent. We all welcome a large
measure of expansion In the productive assets of the
Province, but I need not remind the hon. Prime
Minister that in a time of rising prices and infla-
tionary pressures such capital expansion needs to be
carefully watched. Every dollar paid out in the form
of wages or payment for materials used in capital
construction is a dollar added to purchasing power
which is not balanced by immediate production of the
equivalent in consumer goods. Such a risk is sound
and necessary when its purpose is to increase the
volume of consumer production in the near future.
Capital construction to build new plants, or homes
for workers to live in, or hydro plants to produce
power for the factories and farms, represents sound,
desirable expansion. But in these difficult times
we cannot afford socially wasteful or unnecessary
expenditures on capital goods. The erection of
huge bank buildings when families need homes, con-
struction of flashy cocktail bars and bowling alleys
when we should have more hospital beds, adds greatly
to inflationary pressures with no compensating ad-
vantage In expansion of future production.

I recognize, Mr. Speaker, that this is primarily

' J. J i

F-3

a problem for the Dominion Government. I mention
it here because the subject was raised by the hen.
Prime Minister and because It does affect the pro-
gramme of many departments cf our Gcvernment. At
least it is a constant plea of this Government that
things it would like to do in the v;ay of housing,
of hospital expansion and of highway construction
are being held up by material shortages. In that
circumstance, I should expect this Government to be
among the first to urge on Ottawa that the Government
there dc far more than it has so far done to channel
all essential materials into those projects which will
best serve the needs of our people, regardless of the
claims of private profit.

The other point mentioned by the hon. Prime
Minister, en which I would like to make a few very
brief remarks, is the policy of the Dominion Govern-
ment with regard to interest rates. I am no
economist, but it seems tc me that a programme
supposed to combat inflation, which can only succeed
by increasing the finance charges laid on the back
cf every man who vjants to buy his own house and by
increasing the income of those who grow rich on the
rent of money, is a very poor way to fight infla-
tion indeed.

This is part and parcel of the whole fiscal
philosophy now popular at Ottawa, that every effort
by the Government to influence the direction of our
economy must be in the form of indirect pressures.

P-4

rather than direct controls. Raising of the Interest
rate is only one of those steps; others included the
severe restrictions on credit buying, which resulted
in almost immediate unemployment in the automotive
and other heavy consumer goods industries, and the
unforgivable reversal of policy on housing loans which
made it sc much more difficult for families to acquire
their cwn homes.

As long as the Dominion Government tries to
Influence economic trends by means of indirect pres-
sures, working through the normal operation of the
economic system, the additional burdens which are
thus Imposed upon our people will continue to be
carried by those who are weakest, who are least able
to resist such pressures. A restriction on credit
buying means nothing to the wealthy man who can
afford to pay cash for whatever he wants; it means
real deprivation to the average salary or wage-
earner who either buys a car or a refrigerator or
other household goods on credit or he doesn't buy them
at all. Withdrawal of second mortgage loans and
increases in the Interest rate mean nothing but an
opportunity for greater income to the man with large
sums available for investment. To the average man —
like most of us in this Reuse — it means that the
dream of owning a home of his own recedes still
further into the future; or if, somehow, ho does nanage
to afford it the burden of finance charges, which
is already one of the most costly items in home

.it;

na TLtf 1.:,...

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CiOs.iiW -^a^^^lg^cir^ ;■•: - r1 'j^

F-5

buying, becomes an even greater load upon his back
than It was before.

Ontario's record on housing Is not good. It
may be, as the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) claims,
that more housing units have been built in Ontario
than in any other province. But we have also had
a greater population growth than any other province,
in large part due to the aggressive immigration policy
initiated by the government even before the end of
the war in Europe. The net result has been that the
increase in housing units has been barely sufficient
to keep pace with the increase in population. The
figures tabled in the House by the hon. Prime Minister
(Mr. Frost) himself last week make that perfectly clear.
From the tables of population growth and housing
construction found in the Appendix to the Budget speech,
I see that in 1945, with a population increase of 37,000,
v;e completed 15,100 new houses; in 1946, population
went up 93,000, and we completed only 21,300 houses;
in 1947 population increase was 83,000, new homes completed,
24,700; in 1948, population increase 99,000, new homes
completed only 28,664; in 1949, population increase
103,000, new homes only 32,704; in 1950, population up
93,000, new homes only 32,496; and last year, population
increased by a record-breaking 127,000 while we completed
only 32,782 new housing units.

Over the seven-year period, for a population
increase of 635,000 persons, we have provided only 187,000
new homes. And we must bear in mind that this figure of

•-00 nomoii 'V.

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187,00 nev\f units does not represent a net increase.

Every year -a certain proportion of old houses are

retired, either because they are tDO old and decrepit

for further use, or to make way for industrial or

commercial developments, or even for new housing projects.

Taking these losses into account, it is highly doubtful

whether we have had enough new housing even to

accommodate our population increase. In this regard,

we might bear in mind the statement of a top official

of the rent control administration to the Rent Control

Committee set up by this House last year. Explaining

to the committee the necessity for continuing rent

controls, he warned them that in many parts of Ontario

the housing shortage at that time — and it is just as true

to-day — was even more severe than it had been at

any time during the war. In many communities, all our

efforts have not been sufficient to keep up with the

increase in population. V/e have not solved our

housing problem in Ontario; we have let it grow worse.

I am afraid the clue to our failure is to be

found in a statement by the hon. Minister of Planning

and Development (Mr. Griesinger) in this House only

a few days ago. Speaking on March 19th he said, as

Appears in Harisard at page A-9fr

"There is no doubt that the greatest single
factor that will accomplish the building of
the greatest number of houses in the shortest
possible time is private building."

That is a statement of opinion with which I

cannot possibly agree. For the past seven years we

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have been relying almost exclusively on the private
"ouilder, and in spite of all the enoouragement and
assistance he has been given both from Queen's Park
and Ottawa, he has not been able to build the houses
we need. I think the reason is obvious. From the
very nature of his operations, the private builder
cannot build for those whose need is greatest, but
only for those who have the most money. Undertaking
relatively small projects with limited resources,
his methods are too often inefficient and out-of-date,
while both his operating costs and his financing costs
are t co high.

The one method, I am convinced, by which we can
crack this housing problem and start to pull ahead
of the shortage is by a large-scale direct building
operation by the government, making fullest use of
the newest building materials and techniques and using
the government's strong credit position to obtain the
lowest possible financing costs. That is the way it
will eventually be done — if not by this government,
then by another — and it will require an expenditure of
a great deal more than ten million dollars. An adequate
housing program in this province will have t o be under-
taken on the same scale, and with the same degree of
vigour and governmental leadership as the St. Lawrence
Development project.

V/e were all very much interested in hearing the
hon- Prime Mini sterfe (Mr. Frost) clear-cut exposition

. ;r

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F-8

of his policy with regard to the net debt of the province*
"Generally speak:ing, I think the policy of using surplus
revenues in boom times to pay off existing debt, or
at least to keep it within controllable limits, is
a sound one. But it can be carried too far when it
permits old folks to starve on $40 a month while
the hon. Provincial Treasurer (Mr. Frost) tucks extra
millions into his sock, I have some figures here
respecting the aged people between 65 and 69 years.
For the month of February thera were 10,051 receiving
pension on a means test basis, but of course there
will be a greater number at the end of the year.
-According to a statement in the Globe snd Mail of
last Thursday, it is estimated that there are 160,000
persons in Ontario between the ages of 65 and 69 years.
It is expected that ZOfo will qualify for the maximum
pension. There will be about 30,000 persons, which
will amount to $14^ million, the Province's share
being just over $7i million. A fair number of t he
recipients of this pension were unemployables and had
been maintained on a 50 - 50 basis by the municipalities
and the Province. There will, of course, be a saving
there for the municipalities, but even then some of the
municipalities have signified their intention of
supplementing this small pension because of the great
increase in t he cost of living.

At this time last year, the hon. Prime Minister
(Mr. Frost) estimated that in the fiscal year ending
March 31, 1951, he would have a surplus of about

lly-'i^

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$22,000,000, which he intended to place in the sinking
fund. 1/i/hen we met at t he special session last Fall to
pass the old age assistance legislation, v/e in the
CGF pleaded with him to use just a portion of that
twenty-two millions to provide a cost-of-living bonus
for those aged people who were a provincial responsib-
ility. He was adamant in his refusal to do so, in
spite of the fact that he knew what he did not see
fit to reveal to the House, that his actual surplus
for that fiscal year had been, not twenty-two millions,
but a record-breaking thirty-seven millions.

This year the hon. Prime Minister's (Mr. Frost)
excuse for closing his ears to the needs of these
needy citizens is even flimsier, because according
to his own estimates he is going to save over five
million dollars on this item of expenditure. A year
ago, in the estimates tabled for the year which is
now ending, the estimate for the Province's share of
old age pensions was over thirteen million dollars.
To-day, the estimate for the Province's share of old age
assistance, including medical care for thcs e in need
over 70, is about eight millions — a clear saving to
Ontario of more than five millions. In fact, the
saving is even more than that, because in a large prop-
ortion of cases these recipients of old age assistance
are merely being transferred from the relief rolls. For
not much more than half the amount he is saving on the
new system, the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) could
order that a ^i^lO cost-of-living bonus be paid to every

l-'if^

' f'een al a as rid" aot siSo;
■ ■ 3 u .* ,-j"o a-x Si ■■ • '• iiii '-. ^.'liiz: •

F-10

recipient of old age assistance in Ontario.

I estimate, Mr. Speaker, that to do this would
cost roughly §6,300,000. The hon^ Provincial Treasurer
(Mr. Frost) already has this |5, 000, 000 he is saving by
not paying out what he did last year. He might say:
"That would cost us $1,300,000 more". Mr. Speaker, if
you refer to the Estimates this year, you will find
another saving in the Department of Public V/elfare
whose estimate last year was for the siua of ;ip22,000,000
for unemp] oji'ment relief, and v;ho this year are estimating
only for ^£0,000,000, representing a saving of §2,000,000;
and once again. Mr. Speaker, I plead vdth t he hon.
Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) to dip into his swollen
revenues to help these needy men and women. These
elderly foliv have done their share to help build the
great industrial and commercial undertakings which
'/.'e v/ere told last Thursday have been responsible for
the buoyant, booming period we are now enjoying. They
built, and we are reaping the fruits of their labours.
Let us give them at least enough crumbs from the table
to maintain them in honest decency.

I make this suggestion to the hon. Prime Minister
TMr. Froct)^ v7e all r ecognize that the Dominion
government has an equal share of responsibility in this
natter with the provincer Between them, the two juris-
dictions are now paying |40 a month, and have been paying
that amount for some years. But anyone who looks at the
cost of living index these days can see t hat it takes
at least $60 a month to buy what $40 would buy fiTe or

F-11

six years ago. In April, 1946, the index was at 120.

To-day it is over 190 more than 50% greater.

To provide any kind of a decent standard,
therefore, the old age assistance should be |60 a
month — $30 from Ottawa and sp30 from Q,ueen's Park.

I appeal to the hon. Prime Minister {Mr. Frost)
to take the initiative, and announce before this House
prorogues that Ontario will pay its share of a $60
allowance — that we will boost our immediate payment
to our old people by $10 a month, and will urge Ottawa
to pay $10 more.

I know the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) has
often said that Ontario will pay its share of any
increase that Ottawa proposes. But that is not good
enough. Elderly men and women without enough food to
eat cannot wait till Ottawa makes up its mind. They
need help now — to-day, while they are still alive
to use it. Let Ontario take the lead in this matter.
Let us show a good example, and then we shall be in a
strong position to demand that Ottawa follow suit.

We can well afford it. As I said b afore, little
more than half of what we are saving on t he new system
will pay our share. Indeed, that extra fifteen millions
of added surplus that gave the hon. Provincial Treasurer
(Mr, Frost) such a pleasant surprise last year — that
sum alone would be enough to pay a $10 cost-of-living
bonus on the old age assistance allowance for the next
five years.

During the course of the hon. Prime Minister's

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(Mr. Frost) remarks, comparisons were made of what the
Government of to-day was doing and what the government
of 1943 did. Mr. Speaker, great changes have taken
place in nine years. Road transportation has
increased tremendously in nine years with increased
costs for highway construction and maintenance. The
industrial progress of this Province and of t his
Dominion has been prodigious. Yet we hear the hon.
Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) speak of the great things
this Grovernment has done. Mr. Speaker, I think it is
about time he gave some of the credit for our great
progress to Old Man Ontario. For the progress we have
made this last 10 years has been mainly due to the
initiative, enterprise and adaptability of our people,
not only in Ontario, but in this Doninion.

(Take "G" follows)

G-1

MR. W. E. BRi^DON (York West): Mr. Speaker,
I move the adjournment of the Debate,

Motion agreed to.

CITY OF STRATFORD

CIIERK OF THE HOUSE: First Order, third
reading of Bill No, 3, "An Act respecting the City of
Stratford". Mr. Edwards.

In the absence of Mr. Edwards, Mr. J", A.
Pringle (Aldington) moves third reading of Bill No- 3.

Motion agreed to; third reading of the Bill.

L/IR. SPEiXEE: Resolved, that the Bill do now
pass and be intituled as in the Motion.

CITY OF SAULT STE. IVIilRIE

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Second Order, third
reading of Bill No, 5, "An Act respecting the City of
Sault Ste, Marie". Ii/Ir. Lyons.

MR. C. H. LYONS (Sault Ste. Marie), moves
third reading of Bill No 5,

Motion agreed to; third reading of the Bill.

l/m. SPE^'JCER: Resolved, that the Bill do now
pass and be intituled as in the Motion.

TOV/N OF TIIvMINS SEPARATE SCHOOL BOARD

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Third Order, third reading
of Bill No. 6, "An Act respecting the Town of Timmins
Separate School Board". Mr. Grummett.

?o ,

-'...I I. J J J.

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G-2

im, W. J. GRUMViETT (Cochrane South ) ; moves
third reading of Bill No. 6, "An Act respecting the
Town of Timrriins Separate School Board".

Motion agreed to; third reading of the Bill.

MR. SPEAKER: Resolved, that the Bill do
now pass and be intituled as in the Motion.

J. L. THOI\ffSQN SUPPLY LIMITED

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Fourth Order, third
reading of Bill No. 8, "An Act respecting J". L. Thompson
Supply Limited". Mr. Parry.

MR. V/. MURDOCH (Essex South), in the absence
of Mr. Parry, moves third reading of Bill No. 8, "An
Act respecting J. L. Thompson Supply Limited,"

Motion agreed to; third reading of the Bill.

Lffi. SPEAKER: Resolved, that the Bill do new
pass and be intituled as in the Motion.

TOWS OF BARRIE

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Fifth Order, third
reading of Bill No. 27, "An Act respecting the Town of
Barrie", Mr. Johnston (Simcoe Centre).

RJR. G. G. JOHNSTON (Simcoe Centre), moves
third reading of Bill No. 27, "An Act respecting the
Town of Barrie",

Motion agreed to; third reading of the Bill.

MR. SPEAKER: Resolved, that the Bill do now
pass and be intituled as in the Motion.

G-3

CITY OF FORT WILLIiU^J

CIJERK OF THE HOUSE: Sixth Order, third reading
of Bill No. 7, "An Act respecting the Cits'- of Fort
William." Mr. Mapledoram.

MR. C. MAPLEDORAlvI (Fort William), moves third
reading of Bill No^ 7, "An Act respecting the City of
Fort William."

Motion agreed to; third reading of the Bill,
MR. SEEAICER: Resolved, that the Bill do
now pass and be intituled as in the Motion,

MUNICIPALITY OF NEBBING

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Seventh Order, third
reading of Bill No, 17, "An Act respecting the
Municipality of Neebin^^," Mx. Mapledoram,

MR. C. IV[APLEDOPAIvI (Fort vailiam) , moves third
reading of Bill No. 17, "An Act respecting the
Municipality of Neebing,"

Motion agreed to; third reading of the Bill,

MR. SPEAKER: Resolved, that the Bill do now
pass and be intituled as in the Motion.

TOWNSHIP OF McKIM

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Eighth Order, third
reading of Bill No. 33, ''/in Act respecting the Township
of McKim". Mr. Fullerton.

MR. W. MURDOCH (Essex South), in the absence

G-4

of Mr. Fullerton, moves third reading of Bill No. 33,
"An Act respecting the Township of IJcKim".

Motion agreed to; third reading of the Bill.

LIE. SPEAiCER: Resolved, that the Bill do now
pass and be intituled as in the Motion,

DIVISION COURTS ACT

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Ninth Order, third
reading of Bill No. 40, "An Act to amend the Division
Courts Act", rlr. Porter.

HON. DANA PORTER (Attorney-General) , moves
third reading of Bill No. 40, "An Act to amend the
Division Courts Act".

Motion agreed to; third reading of the Bill.

MR. SPEMCER: Resolved, that the Bill do now
pass and be intituled as in the Motion.

THE REGISTRY ACT

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Tenth Order, third
reading of Bill No. 45. "An Act to amend the Registry-
Act." Mr. Porter,

HON. DiVNA PORTER (Attorney-General), moves
third reading of Bill No. 45, "An Act to amend the
Registry Act.",

Motion agreed to; third reading of the Bill,
MR. SPEiJCER: Resolved, that the Bill do now
pass and be intituled as in the Llotion,

^■Tirf?

•v;: .vi 5; X ^-sn. jiii ~u;

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SURROGATE COURTS ACT
CLERIC OF THE HOUSE: Eleventh Order, third
residing of Bill No. 46, "iui Act to amend the Surrogate
Courts Act." Mr. Porter.

HON. DMA PORTER (Attorney-General), moves
third reading of Bill No. 46, "An Act to amend the
Surrogate Courts Act."

Motion agreed to; third reading of the Bill.
im. SPEAKER: Resolved, that the Bill do now
pass and be intituled as in the ivlotion,

COUNTY COURTS ACT
CLERK OF THE HOUSE: T\velfth Order, third
reading of Bill No. 57, "An Act to amend the County-
Courts Act". Mr. Porter.

HON. DANA PORTER (Attorney-General), moves
third reading of Bill No, 57, "An Act to amend the
County Courts Act".

Motion agreed to; third reading of the Bill,
MR, SPEAKER: Resolved, that the Bill do now
pass and be intituled as in the liotion,

SHERIFFS' ACT
CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Thirteenth Order, third
reading of Bill No. 59, "An Act to amend the Sheriffs'
Act". I'Jr. Porter,

MON. DANA PORTER (Attorney-General), moves

G-6

third reading of Bill No, 59, "An Act to amend the
Sheriffs' Act".

Motion agreed to; third reading of the Bill.

MR. SPEAKER: Resolved, that the Bill do now
pass and be intituled as in the liotion.

HON. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister); Mr.
Speaker, I move that you do nov; leave the Chair and the
House resolve itself into Committee of Supply,

Motion agreed to.

The House in Committee of Supply; I-jIr. Downer
in the Chair.

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIIVIATES
On vote 196;

HON. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): We
have not in the past had too many supplementary estimates,
My recollection is the last supplementary estimate we had
v/as in 1945 or 1947 in connection with the prepayment
of school taxes. In 1945, 1946 and 1947, I

believe we had supplementary estimates. In any event,
Mr. Chairman, it is a good practice. This last year,
we endeavoured to avoid extra paymente which we felt
might very properly be referred to the Legislature.
This amount, of course, is to be paid out of the income
of 1951-52 and the amount of this ten million dollars
is included in the expenditures for that year.

G-7

Q,uite apparently it would not be possible
to do this but for the fact that Revenues have been
buoyant and it is possible to pay this amount and still
meet the requirements of the Budget introduced a year
ago. I should like to say a word of congratulation to
the hon. member for Brant (Mr. Nixon). In connection
with his address this afternoon, I think it was a very
able address dealing with matters relating to the
Budget, and I would say from the standpoint of an
Opposition critic, his criticism was fair and to the
point. There were some parts of it to which I should
like to refer at the moment, because it seems to me to
be apropos of what he said. The hon. member for Brant
(Mr. Nixon) mentioned the debt of the province. His
references v/ere, I think, entirely fair in connection
with the debt of the province. I thin]^ it is a great
thing- to have these matters mentioned here. For some
years past, little attention has been paid to our debt
position by hon. members of the House. I think in
every one of the Budget Speeches, I mentioned the all-
important question of debt and I welcome the comments
of the hon. member for Brant (Mr. Nixon) in connection
with it. Of course, the revenue producing debt and net
debt makes the total of gross debt and again I emphasize
the fact that net debt is the important feature. It is
true that revenue

(Page G-8 follows. )

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producing debt does increase our debt, but, nevertheless,
it is payable from revenue producing assets and is
not an impact on the taxpayer. It is q.uite true that
our revenue producing debt has increased one hundred
million dollars in the last year due to the fact that
we had to borrow money in Nev/ York on account of Hydro.

Because of the situation existing in Nev; York, it
was necessary to borrow the money in the name of the
province rather than as a Hydro issue guaranteed by the
Government. In other v/ords,-v.'e know the Hydro-Electric
Power Commission up here, but in Nev/ York it is just
another name. In Nev; York, the name of the province is
something else and vie were able to borrow the money
more cheaply. It is difficult to borrav money v/ithout
the guarantee of the province.

In regard to indirect debt, the hon. member
for Brant (Mr. Nixon) mentioned that in 1943, our
indirect debt, that is debt which is borrowed by Hydro
and guaranteed by the province, ran one hundred and
twenty million dollars and nov; it is five hundred million
dollars. I v;ill say that v;e can see within the next
four or five years that indirect debt will rise to about
one billion dollars. In other words, the debt will be
five hundred million dollars more than at the present tins,
due, as. is quite apparent, to the development at Niagara,

G-9

V/e are going to have to borrov/ probably another

two hundred million dollars or tv/o hundred and fifty

million dollars for the S.t. Lawrence Seaway. I think'

probably hon. members of the House in considering that

v/ill recognize the importance of our credit.

I v/as quite interested in two articles which

appeared in a journal which devotes some attention to

myself and this Government, the Toronto Daily Star, and

I was interested in an editorial of March 21, \vhen it

said that the payment of twenty-five million dollars

into sinking funds to reduce our net debt is actually

in excess of the requirement by some eighteen million

dollars. That is quite true. They say it is

excessive taxation. The very next day, on the financial

page of the paper, in an article by the financial editor,

appears:

"Frost says saving for a rainy day is a good
idea but he does not follow it."

As a matter of fact, the tv.-o articles are

completely contradictory. The financial editor says

that in these days of buoyant revenues, it is a good

idea to apply what you can to the debt that is incurred dur-

inSthe year. On the other 'hand, the editorial says it

is excessive taxation. I v/ould say the answer to both

articles is the fact that they are contradictory. As

a matter of fact, it is right and proper that we should

G-10

apply everything v;e can in keeping down our debt
position. One of these articles raises the point which
was raised here this afternoon, that there are some
criticisms of the Ottav/a situation. You know by new
I never criticise Ottawa; I never say anything about
their Budgets, I would point out that the position in
Ottawa is different, Ottawa is not borraving new money,
Ottav/a, for some years now, has been able to go along
and not incur any nev; debt. They obtain money fo-r 'defence
rec[uirements, from current account through ordinary
account, and if there is a surplus this year, as there has
been other years of |5, 000, 000,, $4,000,000. or $5,000,000.
of course, it goes on the debt which has not increased
for some three or four years. Our position is entirely
different, we are borrowing new money continuously and,
as I said in the Budget, we are going to have to increase
our net debt. V.'e did increase our net debt last year
but we are keeping it as low as possible by applying
increased amounts, we are seeking funds to keep that
net debt down. So successful -were we over the period
of eleven years, the increase was only about $14,000,000,
This year, the increase is going to be considerably
more but in effect v;e can say that rith the net
debt accrued during this particular year which will end
on the 31st of this month, on the new debt we have been

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G-11

able to pay at least Ol8>886,000. from current account.
If we find in the last days of this month our surplus
runs beyond $18,886,000. that sum again will be applied.
I think that is wise and prudent financing end I think
it is in accordance with v/hat the hon. member for
Brant (Mr, Nixon) would say is good, namely, to keep
our net debt well in hand and well under control. I
agree v/ith what he said about statutory amounts which
are shov/n in the estimates. It is another thing, however,
to change our bookkeeping system. The provincial
auditor is here and I think he would agree with that
fact.

V/e have some fictions in our public accounts
which have cropped up from other days such as the
Highway Improvement Fund. .This is competely misleading,
the Highway Improvement Fund shows a paper balance of
;j200,000,000. at the present time, which is completely
non-existent. The reason is that in the* days of
the old Highway Improvement Fund when it was first
brought in from thirty-odd years ago, there were certain
things not charged to the Highvay Improvment Fund, for
instance, intere^st on highway debt is not charged to it.
The cost of administration of the Department which amounts
now to several million dollars a year is not charged to
it. Even the hon. Minister's salary is not charged to it.

;=. i y

G-12

As a matter of fact, if you take the figures on the
basis that no doubt was in the minds of those who
created the Highway Improvment Fund, there is a deficit
of a like amount, probably a couple of hundred million
dollars. These things are fictions, and I v/ould like
to do away v;ith them. The problem, of course, is it
means such a radical change in our public accounts
system. It seems if we v;ere to do i"c this year, i't
would not really bo comparable v.'ith any previous
year. It creates problems of that sort and while I
agree with what has been said > I think, v;e are
moving along the lines of getting away from this situation,
I would really like to do a major operation and abolish
the old Highway Improvment Fund which, as I say, has
reached the stage v/here it is completely meaningless.

(TAKE "H" FOLLOWS)

H-1

AS regards the loan which was called at 3i
per cent; may I point out that was a New York loan
and is payable In U.S. funds. We were able to borrow
that money at a premium, and due to fortuitous
circumstances to pay it off at a discount. In
effect the loan had probably a couple of years to
run, but we were able to pay it off and get 3u P®^
cent for cur money, which is a high rate of interest
for a short-term loan. We also have been afforded
this added advantage, that we cleared off an issue
of $15 million, and were enabled to get away from
the New York market but, at the same time, making
. it possible for us to go back to that market if we
care to in the future. We are hoping it will not
be necessary. I am in agreement with the hon.
member for Brant (Mr. Nixon) when he says it would
be preferable to borrow money in this country, but
we kept the slate clear down there, and it enables
us to go to the New York market in the future if we
want to, or find it necessary. That gets the loan
out of the. way under favourable circumstances; in
fact, we made money at both ends of the deal be-
cause of the exchange situation.

Just a word in connection with the
Supplementary Estimates: this covers an amount
mentioned m the budget of $2,300,000, under the
Department of Education, by way of special grants
to universities; $l,000,00u to the teachers' super-
annuation fund; $5,700,000 in capital grants for the ■

?rh i

>j n-

H-2

teaching hospitals, as set out in the Supplementary
Estimates, and $1^000,000 being paid into our housing
corporation, for the purpose of strengthening that
organization. The latter $1,000,000 forms part of
the sum of $10,000,000 set up in the budget, in
connection with the housing scheme.

MR. PaRG:UHAR OLIVER (Leader of the Opposition)
May I ask the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost), Mr.
Chairman, what rule is used to determine the various
grants as applied to the different universities?

MR. FROST: (Prime Minister): The rule is
somewhat a rule of thumb, of course. The same
question might be asked in connection with the
teaching hospitals. In regard to the universities,
we have taken the number of students and the special
work they are doing which requires capital assistance
and have divided it on that basis. This is not un-
like vjhat we did some four years ago, as the hon.
Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Oliver) will recall,
when the amount was paid out of surplus in the
Supreme Court fund.

In regard to the hospitals, we ascertained
the services the various hospitals were rendering.
For instance, in the City of London it was felt that
probably as between Victoria Hospital and St. Joseph
Hospital the amount .would run about three to" one in
beds, and in the services they rendered, and it was
on that basis the division was made.

Vote No. 196 agreed to.

3 -n.

. xV.

H-3

On Vote 197:

MR. OLIVER: On Vote 197. Mr. Chairman, may
I ask the Government If the provision of this $1
million for the teachers ' superannuation fund will
make that fund actuarially sound? Is that sufficient?

I^. FROST (Prime Minister): Mr. Chairman,
perhaps I may answer that question for the hon.
Minister of Education (Mr. Dunlop). We felt the
fund need strengthening. The whole matter is being
inquired Into by actuaries appointed by the teachers
and the Government. That survey will, of course,
take some time. As I say, we felt the fund should
be strengthened. We acted on the advice of our
officials and the Provincial Auditor and this
seemed to be a suitable time to add that sum of
$1 million.

MR. OLIVER: But the Government has no
present knowledge go indicate whether that is suf-
ficient?

MR. FROST (Prime Minister): No.

Votes 197 to 199 Inclusive agreed to.

MR. W. L. HOUCK (Niagara Falls): Mr. Chairman,
may I revert back to the remark by the hon. Prime
Minister about borrowino; money on the New York
market. Was any difficulty experienced in bor-
rowing money on the New York market?

MR. FROST (Prime Minister): No. Actually
our loans were received very well. Of course, as the
hon. member (Mr. Houck) will realize, we have been

H-4

doing business In very unusual times.

A year and a half ago we could borrow money
in the Canadian market at a little over 3 per cent.
I think it varied from 3-08 to 3.18 per cent; with
the raising of the bank rate, and the support
removed from Dominion Government bonds which were
held by institutions and individuals, which resulted
in dropping the prices, Vfhen requiring money we have
had to step into the market and try to judge what
would be the Interest rate at which people would
loan the necessary money. When we went into the
New York market we were, of course, going into a
new market. We had not been there for some twenty
years with a new loan, although we had been there
with refunds . However, we went to New York and
endeavoured to get the best rate we could, and we
seem to have hit the market very accurately. Some
of the other Provinces and municipalities went there,
but our rates were comparatively very favourable.

If you can call $30 million a "small loan",
we had one about last May. We went in at a coupon
rate,. I think, of 3|- per cent, and sold at a dis-
count to yield about 3.6 per cent. As the money
market deteriorated, we went into It toward the end
of the year for two loans, one for ourselves and one
for Hydro, at k per cent. The rate seems to be
stabilized at about that figure, as far as I can
see .

In New York we had no difficulty with one

S'lsr

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" T ■,.,•: '.•

H-5

of the loans J and the market there is such that we
can go back to It, if we want to. On the other hand,
we would much prefer to borrow here In Canada if we
can.

MR. OLIVER: Mr. Chairman, may I revert to
something the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Frost) said a
few moments ago with regard to highway expenditures
as between capital and ordinary? I think that some-
thing a little over $3 million was voted by hon.
members of the Legislature and something like $90
million went by a devious route to the highway im-
provement fund. I have been persuaded for some time
-- and I think perhaps the hon. Prime Minister is of
a like mind on that -- that this is a most unusual
and undemocratic procedure. I think the
Highway Improvement Act was placed on the statute
books about 1920. I imagine the idea at that time
was that all the money for highway purposes would be
paid into and out of the highway Improvement fund. As
an actuality -- and I think the hon. Prime Minister
will follow me -- there is no money in the highway
improvement fund at all; it is now in the consoli-
dated revenue fund of the Province. Consequently we
are working through an Act which does not exist for
the purpose for which it was intended, and by follow-
ing that route we are relieving the Legislature of
the responsibility of voting almost $90 million in
highway funds. I am not so sure that we should
not hasten to correct that situation.

(Take "I" follows)

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After all, hen. members come here to pass on
the Estimates that are presented for the ensuing year,
and It seems to me not only unreasonable but highly
improper that a capital expenditure should be pro-
vided for removing snow from the highways and paying
for ordinary maintenance of permanent highways. That
is not a capital expenditure by the widest term; it
is ordinary expenditure simple and pure.

HON. MR. FROST (Prime Minister;: We do not
treat that as a capital expenditure, of course.

MR. OLIVER: You must be a lot lower than I
thought you were if you only vote $3 million and you
do not take it on capital expenditure. V/hat is
ordinary expenditure, then?

MR. PROST (Prime Minister): I think we
have been very broad in our ordinary expenditure.
The Provincial Auditor is here and I shall ask him
afterwards if I am right or wrong in this, but I
think that in what we call maintenance we include,
for instance, the realignment of old highvjays. V/e
may have carried that too far. I think much of our
realignment work on old highways really might have
been carried as capital work, but as a matter of fact
we have treated that as ordinary account, because it
is arguable.

This year we have $55 million in ordinary
account and $45 million in capital, and the hon.
Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Oliver) may count on
it that what is allotted to capital is very strictly

• 1. > .

:t- :-u:^. -.--lev -

jCi-

■ ') oj Do:t:Jo*xv.

1-2

capital work, there is no question about that, and It
may be that some of what we have in ordinary account
is, if not capital, then pretty close to the line.

Estimates of the Office of Lieutenant-
Governor .

Vote No. 119 agreed to.

Estimates of Office of Lieutenant-Governor
agreed to.

HON. L. M. FROST (Prime Minister): Office
of the Provincial Auditor.

Vote Ko . 1^+1 agreed to.

Estimates of Office of the Provincial
Auditor agreed to .

HON. L. M. FROST (Prlm.e Minister): Miscel-
laneous Item, Vote 202.

Vote No. 202 agreed to.

Vote No. 203 agreed to.

rliscellaneous Estimates an;reeci to.

HON. L. M. FROST (Prim.e Kinister) : Mr.
Chairman, I should like to say in connection with the
Provincial Auditor that this Government and thir
Assembly of the people are v;ei:. served by Mr. Cotnam,
the Auditor who presides over that Department. In
him we have an official who Is not an official of
the Government; ho is an official of this Assembly
and is responcible to the assembly. lis is v^ry truly

the "watchdog of the Treasury", and I m'^y way ilr .
Cotnam has been very strict in his inter;;:^retations
of matters, and I can assure my hon. frienc the

1-3

Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Oliver) that in con-
nection with matters relating to capital payments or
to statutory payments, the Provincial Auditor pretty
well shares his views. If he presses the point
long enough the Provincial Auditor might insist
indeed on something of that sort, and I would not
have any opposition myself to doing that. J think
the more possibilities that are given to hon. members
of the Legislature to vote money and have control over
the purse strings, the better, and the Provincial
Auditor is certainly a constitutionalist on matters
of that sort.

Mr. Chairman, I move that the Committee rise
and report progress.

Motion agreed to.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the Chair.

im, A. W. DOV/NER (Dufferin-Slmcoe) : Mr.
Speaker, the Committee of Supply begs to inform you
that it has come to certain resolutions, and moves
for leave to sit again.

Motion agreed to.

THE INTERPRETATION ACT
CLERK OP THE HOUSE: 27th Order, second
reading of Bill No. 49, "An Act to amend the Interpre-
tation Act." Mr. Pv.rter.

HON. DANA PORTER (Attorney General) moves
second reading of Bill No. k-g.

He said: Mr. Speaker, in moving second reading

1-4

of this Bill I may remind hon. members that this
Bill is designed to accomplish two things. One is
tc provide that every proclamation Issued by the
Lieutenant-Governor in Council shall be Judicially
noticed by all judges, justices of the peace and
others , without being specially pleaded.

The second purpose of the Bill is to deal with
the question that has been raised by the change in the
hours during which certain public offices are open to
the public, and is complementary to the other legis-
lation to that effect.

I propose that this Bill be referred to the
Committee on Legal Bills.

Motion agreed to: second reading of the Bill.

LAND TITLES ACT

CLERK OP THE HOUSE: 28th Order, second
reading of Bill No. 50, "An Act to amend the Land
Titles Act". Mr. Porter.

HON. DANA PORTER (iittorney -General) moves
second reading of Bill No. 50.

He said: Mr. Speaker, this Bill is another
which I propose to refer to the Committee on Legal
Bills. I do not know that it is necessary for me
to again outline what the Bill contains, unless
hon. members wish me tc do so.

Motion agreed to: second reading of the Bill.

EXECUTION OF TRUSTS ACT, 1939
CLERK OF THE HOUSE: 29th Order, second reading

1-5

of Bill No. 51, "An Act to repeal the Execution of
Trusts Act, 1939". Mr. Porter.

HON. DANA PORTER (Attorney General) moves
seccnd reading of Bill No. 51.

Motion agreed to.

THE DEPENDANTS ' RELIEF ACT

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: 30th Order, second
reading of Bill No. 52, "^ri Act to amend the De-
pendants' Relief Act." Mr. Porter.

HON. DANA PORTER (Attorney General) moves
second reading of Bill No. 52.

He said: Mr. Speaker, I propose that this
Bill be referred to the Committee on Legal Bills.
I think it is not necessary for me to review the con-
tents of it at this stage.

MR. J. B. SALSBERG (St. Andrew): Mr. Chairman,
I think the hon. Minister should explain this Bill
to the House now .

MR. PORTER: Well, for the benefit of the hon.
member who was not in his seat vhen it was explained in
the first instance, I shall explain it again. It is
always a great pleasure to explain a second time
to those who ask for it. I do not know whether the
hon. member (Mr. Salsberg) wants a long explanation,
but I trust it will be one he can understand this
time.

The first two sections of this Bill deal
with a certain difficulty that has occurred in the

1-6

courts in interpreting certain sections of The
Dependants' Relief Act. A case occurred recently
and was decided by the Chief Justice of the High
Court. It dealt with two things; one was with
respect to a certain section in The Dependants '
Relief Act whicti requires the applicant to give evi-
dence orally. There was some question as to whether
under certain circumstances the applicant would be
entitled to submit evidence by way of commission
evidence if the applicant happened to live outside
the province. Provision is made by the general rules
of the court for a commission to be appointed and the
evidence of the person might be taken outside of the
province and read at the trial, and there is also
provision in the general rules of the court in cases
where a party is incapacitated by Illness or for some
such reason is unable to attend personally in court,
to have his or her evidence taken in a manner which
is called"de bene esse" which the hon. member for
Brant (Mr. Nixon) would understand if he were here.

im. VJ. L. HOUCK (Niagara Falls): I do not
understand it. What is it?

MR. PORTER: It means that even if he is not
here his evidence can be well and truly taken. I
hope that is approximately correct. It is ''off the
cuff."

MR. HOUCK: Subject to revision.

r4R. SALSBERG: Vlhile the hon. Minister (Mr.
Porter) is at it, would he explain the case he has in

1-7

mind, because I am worried about it.

MR. PORTER: I believe I have it right here,
specially for the benefit of the hon. member, because
I expected he would ask that question.

This is a case of Re Martin, 1951 Ontario
Weekly Notes, Page 69I, in case the hon. namber for
St. Andrew wants to take notes.

MR. SALSBERG: I shall take it from Hansard.

MR. PORTER: This was a case under The Dependants'

Relief Act, where there was an appeal from the ruling
of the Judge of the Surrogate Court of the County
of Carleton, dismissing an application for a commis-
sion to take ±n British Columbia the evidence of a
widow eligible for relief under The Dependants '
Relief Act. The Chief Justice of the High Court
pointed out in his judgment that the Surrogate Court
judge had dismissed that motion for a commisnicn on
the ground that on such an application "the evidence
taken shall be given orally before the Judge,"
according to the present wording of the Statute.
The question was whether or not that over-ruled the
general rules of practice in some cases where evidence
under certain conditions can be ":aken or. commission.

Probably reasons 'vorc given in this case
and it was decided under all the circumstances that
evidence could be taken en commission in r,plto of the
wording of the Act. Therefore it was considered
advisable to amend the Acl; to bring it in line so
there vjill be no possibla question arir.ing and

1-8

commlsslcn evidence will be acceptable. It Is in-
tended to make applicable the practice and procedure
of the Surrogate Court to all the proceedings under
this Act, instead of some of the special provisions
which were inserted in the Act when it was first in-
troduced, so that the Surrogate Court rules of
procedure will apply and will provide for all these
things .

(Take "J'' follows)

J-1

This second part of the Act deals with the
question of appeals and the practice and procedure on
appeals. I might just remind the hon. members that the
Dependent Relief Act became law some years ago for the
purpose of the relief of a dependent of a deceased
person who was not sufficiently provided for in a
will: the widow, for instance, or, in some cases, where
there were children who were dependent, and, naturally,
had some claim upon the estate. This Act generally
provided that, where a person in that category chose to
go before the County Court Judge and try to establish
they were dependents, and the will did not make suf-
ficient provision for them, considering the amount of
money that was left in the estate, the Judge could make
an order, which in some cases, had the effect of altering
the will, and because a first charge on the estate, in
the amount the Judge decided should go to the dependents.
These amendments to the Statute are for the purposes
I have mentioned.

IVER. SALSBERG: Mr. Speaker, I ask this
question despite information I received about a series
of fairy tales carried in the Telegram in one of
which I am listed as being a lawyer - I want to

'^aji-y

J -2

say that there is no truth to it, I am not responsible,
I never was a lawyer^ This was brought to my attention
by the legal profession. I do not know if I can sue,
or if one can get damages for being called a lawyer
when he is not. Now, I was afraid this may affect a
category of people which under certain laws — and ob-
viously under this one-- could be taken to court and
com^pelled to assume certain responsibilities for main-
tenance of members of families. But I think I am right
in thinking this Bill is only for widows and orphans,

¥R. PORTER: l/ell, where there are dependent sj
where there was aix estate that could have supported them,
but for some reason or other through a mistake, or due
to meanness, the testator denied them.

im, SAL3BERG: It is to help the needy.

IIR. PORTER: I can assure the hon. member
(Mr. Salsberg) it is to help the needy.

Motion agreed to; second reading of the Bill,

THE TRUSTSS ACT

HON. DiJSIA P OR TI.R'( Attorney General), moves
second reading of Bill No. 74, "An Act to amend the
Trustee Act."

He said: As I mentioned on the first reading

J-3

of this Bill, this is an Act which extends the
powers and widens the scope of trustees as to invest-
ments. I propose that this should be referred to the
Committee on Legal Bills and there an opportunity will
be given those who are chiefly interested and have
advocated this measure, to present their case and have
it more fully considered. I also may add the Government
was not prepared to advance this and be responsible
for it as a Government measure in the ordinary sense.
After the Legal Bills Committee has had an opportunity
of threshing it out, we will sec in what form it
returns to the House.

Motion agreed to; second reading of the Bill, ■
LOAN JiND TRUST CORPORATIONS ACT

HON. DANA PORTER (Attorney-General), moves
second reading of Bill No. 89, "An Act to amend the Loan
and Trust Corporations Act",

He said: I propose that this be sent to the
Committee on Legal Bills for full consideration.

Motion agreed to; second reading of the Bill.
THE DOVvSR ACT

HON. DANA PORTT^R (Attorney-General), moves
second reading of Bill No. 93, "An Act to amend the
Dower Act."

He said: I propose to send this to the
Committee on Legal Bills for full consideration.

J-4

Motion agreed to; second reading of the Bill,
HON. LESLIE M. FROST (Prime Minister): LIr.
Speaker, in moving the adjournment of the House, may I
particularly refer to what the hon. iittorney-General
(Mr. Porter) has said about these last three Bills,
Bill No. 74, Bill No. 89 and Bill No. 93. These Bills,
of course, are not being introduced as Government measures
but they have been introduced with the viev; of sending
them to the Legal Bills Committee with no strings
attached. V/e welcome a very thorough consideration of
the Bills, particularly the first two. The last Bill,
of course, is more or less routine, but it raises a
very interesting subject into which the Legal Bills
Committee might v/ant to further delve and give a good
deal of consideration to it.

To-morrow, we propose to go ahead with the
estimates of the Department of the Attorney-General and
also the estimates of Insurance and follov/ that with
some Bills. V/e are hoping to adjourn to-morrow afternoon
about 5:15,. I think the greatest show on earth comes offto-

morrow evening, which is a highly important piece of
public business and it is, I think, desirable that we
should adjourn a little earlier.

Ivffi. F. R. OLIVER (Leader of the Opposition):
Could the hon. Prime Lllnister (Mr. Frost) indicate the

J-5

Bills?

MR. FROST: I think v/e might take the Hydro
Bills that are on the Order Paper and if there are any
Bills the hon. Leader of the Opposition {¥ix . Oliver)
objects to, I will not call them.

Motion agreed to.

House adjourned at 6:03 of the clock, p.m.

'f

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