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REPORT

FROM THE

SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS,

ON THE

PRESENT STATE OF DISCIPLINE IN GAOLS
AND HOUSES OF COREECTION;

TOOETHEK WITH THE

PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE,

AND APPENDIX.

1863.

(37.)

Ex Libris
K. OGDEN

"\ 'f.\
ll./ii

REPORT

FROM THE

SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS,

ON THE

PRESENT STATE OF DISCIPLINE IN GAOLS
AND HOUSES OF CORRECTION;

TOGETHER WITH THE

PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE,

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE,

AND APPENDIX.

Session 1863,

Ordered to be printed 7th July 1863.

(37.)

REPORT p. iii

PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE - - - - p. xviii

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE P- 1

APPENDIX p. 475

.JJ O .iO t/0_

"1-1^ bL^ -It:.....--. --......- ■-- ^

L i" ]

REPORT.

THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to consider and report on the
present State of Discipline in Gaols and Houses of Correction, have
agreed to the following REPORT :

ORDERED TO REPORT,

On a subject so large in extent as that referred to them, the Committee have
obviously been unable to carry their inquiries into the particular management
and details of all or even of the majority of county and borough prisons. Enquiry
into the Irish and Scotch prisons is not included in the Order of the House ; and
the Welsh Gaols, from their smaller size, and as falling naturally under the rules
and principles of penal discipline which are applicable to the English prisons, have
appeared to demand somewhat less investigation than those in England. With
regard to the English Gaols and Houses of Correction, they have endeavoured, as
far as lay in their |)ower, to summon for examination witnesses who, from official
position or from known differences of personal opinion, might in some sense
be said to represent the various schools of thought and practice which the
administration of our prisons has developed.

Amongst so many persons speaking on so many and such various systems
of prison management, some conflict of evidence is naturally to be found, but
that disagreement is one rather of opinion than of fact, and it turns mainly
upon points of secondary importance. The Committee have been greatly guided
towards their general conclusions by the remarkable concurrence on the larger
questions of many of the ablest and most experienced witnesses whom they have
examined.

I. They have, in the first place, to remark that many and wide differences, as
regards construction, labour, diet and general disciphne, exist in the various
Gaols and Houses of Correction in England and Wales, leading to an inequality,
uncertainty and inefficiency of punishment, productive of the most prejudicial
I'esults. In some gaols, such as Wakefield, the cells are constructed on the
separute system; in many, as at Leicester and Stafford, a portion only of the
cells are certified, though all prisoners are separated ; and in others, such as
Maid'^tone and Coldbath-fields, the associated system still prevails extensively.

On reference to a Return Ordered by the House of Commons, 18 April 1856,
it appears that the separate system was not at that time established in the
Borough Gaols of Bodmin, Falraouth, Saltash, Exeter, Barnstaple, Colchester,
Ilford, Gloucester, Deal, Dover, Westminster, Oxford, Beccles, Hastings, and
Rye, in the southern district ; nor in those of Leicester, Kirton-in-Lindsey,
Louth, Spilsby, Norwich, King's Lynn, Nottingham, Wenlock, Litchfield, Wnv-
wick, Coventry, Appleby, Kendal, York Castle, and the City Gaol, in the northern
disti'ict. The Queen's Bench in Surrey, and the countv prisons of Coldl)ath-
fields, Monmouth, and Rutland are also described as wanting in the accommo-
dation of separate cells (together with the Liberty Prison of St. Alban's). Since
then the gaols at Saltash, Deal, Beccles, Hastings Coventry and Wenlock
have been closed, whilst many have been wholly or partially fitted up with sepa-
arate cells. Amongst these are the gaols of Bodmin, Exeter, Gloucester, Oxford,
Nottingham, Leicester and Warwick, together with the \\ estminster House of
Correction.

The differences with regard to labour are still more marked. In some gaols Appendix N.
the treadwheel is the chief and occasionally the only means of giving labour.
At Northallerton, Warwick, Rutland, Walsingham, Spilsby, Canterbury, and
Huntingdon, it is said to be the sole punishment in force ; in others, the cellular
rrank forms the principal implement of punishment, but it is sometimes reserved
for second and third offences, refractory paupers and assaults, and sometimes it

(37.) a 2 is,

IV REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE

is, tis at Southwell, appropriated to the punishment of vagrants alone ; in others
the crank, v\hich is worked by one continuous shaft, and which gives employ-
ment to several prisoners at the same time, is in force •, in some cases picking
oakum or stone-breaking, in others industrial occupations [irevail; in one prison
" self-instruction" is said to be the main element of discipline, and labour is not

2fii8. only supposed to be productive of no good result, but every h<iur devoted to it is

2609. treated as a relaxation or relief from the seclusion of the cell. Nor are these

various forms of tniployment in any fixed proportion to each other or to the
period of imprisonment. In Leicester the labour of the crank is continued during
the whole of the prisoner's sentence, whilst at Stafford and at Fetworth it is
enforced dining the earlier stages of confinement. The construction too both of
the treadwheel and crank appears to vary in the different gaols. In Wands-

1025. worth prison, according to the evidence of one of the witnesses, the pressure

put upon the axis of the crank is graduated by defined weights, and the amount
of resistance left to !)e determined by the surgeon : on the other hand, in the
older form of crank, as at the New Bailey, Salford, the pressure is regulated by
a simple turn of the screw, at the option of the gaoler. It may, according to
this witness, be estimated at 7 or 10 lbs. ; but the efl^ect is very difterent, for
" the rffect of the nominal 7 lbs. ciank at the New Bailey at Salford, in com-
" parison with the effect of the Wandsworth crank of 7 lbs., is as 1"6 to 1 ; and
" the eri'ect of the so called 9 lbs. crank at the New Bailey, as compared with
" the 12 lbs crank at Wandsworth, is as 1 i to 1. Therefore there is very great
" difference with regard to the effect of the nominal value, rnd since the nominal
" value is determined by the simple turn of a screw, which can never be gra-
" (luated nicely, it is quite clear that the pressure at the New Bailey must vary
" with each prisoner every day."

Again, the discrepancies of diet, both as regards amount and quality, and the

different periods at which the several changes take place, are equady remarkable.

A s ale of diet was issued by the Home Office in 1843 for the consideration

of the local authorities. That scale has been wholly adopted by some gaols, and

818. partially by others. Thus it is stated that in CardiflT, till recently, no meat was

allowed, whilst in (^oldbath fields the prisoner enjoys six ounces of cooked meat
on four, and four ounces on three days of the week : and again whilst the higher
scale of food begins in Cardifl" after 14 days' confinement, it commences in
Coldbath-fields after four days only. It would seem from the evidence of Dr. Guy,
that the higher clas-es of diet, as sanctioned by the Home Ofl[ice in 1843 were

3809. framed upon the prison diet of Millbank —Class V. corresponding closely with it.

38. G. No less than 42 county and borough prisons are said by him to have adopted

the Home Office recommendations in regard to the diet of this Class; but the
Millbank dittary exceeds that of Peutonville by two nuiices of bread per day;
an excess which , in his opinion, can be justified only by the peculiar local con-
ditior. of that prison in a sanitary point of \iew. It is, however, on this excep-
tional standard, th t the Home Ollice recommendations for Class V. appear to be
based.

It is difficult to trace the existence of any fixed pi inciple in the original
construction of the official dietaries, and such a principle would appear to be
equally wanting in those prisons which have not adopted the Home Office scale.
Dr. Guy states, that on an analysis of the dietaries in use by county and borough
piisons which have not adopted the Government recommendations, the element
ol biead is found to vary from a minimum of 30 ounces per week, to a maximum
of 224 ounces, that of potatoes, from 24 ounces to 1 12 ounces, and that of meat,
from 0 thiough 6, 8, 12, 18 to 25 ounces; whilst taking the total solid elements
of bread, potatoes, and meat, differences are exhibited, varying from a minimum
3817. 3819. of 100 ounces, to a maximum of 340 ounces during the week.

II, The Committee are of opinion that it is desirable to establish without
delay a system approaching as nearly as may be practicable to an uniformity
of labour, diet and treatment; and,

III. That whilst industrial occupation should in certain stages form a part of
prison discipline, the more strictly penal element of that discipline is the chief
means of exercising a deterrent influence, and therefore ought not to h^ weak-
ened, as it has been in some gaols, still less to be entirely withdrawn.

IV. !a

ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. V

IV. In all questions of prison discipline, it appears to the Committee that Separation,
the principle of separation, or association, stands first for consideration. Next
in importance is the question of solitary confinement.

Association, or a mixed S}stem of association and separation prevails, as has
already been shown, in many gaols. Such anomalies however, are, in the
opinion of the Committee, very objectionable. They should be removed at the
earliest practicable time ; and their present existence can only be justified by the
difficulties of reconstruction, and tiie natural reluctance of the local authorities
to incur a heavy expenditure. The Committee entertain a very decided opinion
on this head, and having reference to the course of legislation now extending
over many years, and the agreement in opinion and practice of the highest
authorities, they consider that the system generally known as the separate
system, must now be accepted ;is the foundation of prison discipline, ami that
its rigid maintenance is a vital principle to the efficiency of county and boi'ough
gaols.

The Committee concur entirely in the opinion expressed by the. Commissioners
of Pentonville, vfho in their Fifth Report, dated 5 March 1847, give the following
decisive testimony in its favour : —

" We concluded our Third Report, by strongly urging; the advantage of the separation of
" one prisoner from anotlier, as the basis and great leading feature of all prison discipline.

" On reviewing this opinion, and taking advantage of further exjierience, we feel war-
" ranted in expressing our firm conviction that the moral results of the discipline have bef n
" most encouraging, and attended with a success which we believe is without parallel in the
" history of prison discipline."

And in conclusion they state as their deliberate opinion, that

" The separation of one prisoner from another is the only sound basis on which a refor-
" matory discipline can be established with any reasonable hope of success."

In order to avoid all ambiguity on so important a branch of this inquiry, it :s
to be observed that separation has a two-fold aspect in which it may be consi-
dered : first, that seclusion which results from the mechanical construction of
the prison and its cellular arrangement; secondly, that separation of the prisoner
frotn his fellows which is dependent upon system and discipline, as apart fronti
the material separation of the cells.

(a) Separation by Construction.

1. The Committee have observed from the evidence submitted to them, that
in many of the best gaols a large proportion of the cells are below the precise
standard of size, and consequently uncertified by the inspector. Such cells, how-
ever, appear to be used under certain conditions, without prejudice to the
administration of the prison or the health of the prisoners.

Whilst for the future the fullest development is given to the separate system,
it will be for the Secretary of State to consider how far the practical object in
view may not be met, and the ditficulties arising out of the exjiense of a recon-,
struction of many prisons obviated by allowing a certain proportion of cells below
the average standard to be ceitified and sanctioned, it being understood that the
occupants of those cells shall consist of prisoners undergoing short sentences, who
shall be chiefiy employed during the day upon hai^d labour outside their cells.*

2. The Con)mittee recommend that legislative measures be taken as speedily
as possible to render the adoption of separation obligatory upon all gaols and
houses of correction in England and Wales, and that the payment of the propor-
tion of the charge, now issued from the public revenues in aid of the county
and borough prisons, be made contingent in each case on the adoption of
the separate S3'stem.

In 18ol Sir J. Jebb, in his Report on Prison Discipline and Management, proposed to reduce the
dimensions of prison cells from 13 feet long by 7 feet wide — rhe standard size at Pentonville— to 9
foot long by 6 feet wide. "There ia no objection," the report proceeds to state, "to the use of
such eells for short periods varying from three to six months, if the ventilation be sufficient. Where
looms or other cumbrous machinery .nre introduced, a larger space is necessarily required." See also,
Sti- W. Crofton's suggestion for the provisiona-l partition of associated prisoners in gaols of aa old and
imperfect construction, 3237-44.

(37.) a 3

{

Vl REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE

(b) Separation by System.

3. It is clear that this kind of separation must depend upon the judgment and
capacity of those who are locally responsible for the administration of the prison.
The newest and most elaborate form of construction is an insufHcient safeguard
if there is any relaxation of the necessary precautions by the local authorities,
whilst an old and defective gaol may in some degree, by care and proper arrange-
ment, be adapted to the requirements of our present system.* Looking, however,
to the ordinary arrangements which exist in most gaols, there are so many inter-
ruptions to the regularity of prison discipline, instruction is given at such
various times, and the communications which pass between prisoners and other
persons are so frequent, that separation, though it exists nominally in many, is
really to be found in few gaols ; but where it does exist, it exercises both a
reformatory and a deterrent effect. Under these circumstances, the Committee
are of opinion tiiat the principle of separation should be made to pervade the
entire system of the prison, nnd no adequate reason has been assigned for the
relaxation of the rule in school, in chapel, and at exercise. It is, however, to be
imderstood that this conclusion is not intended to limit the cellular and other
religious instruction which the chaplain may think ht to administer to any
prisoner.

4. The iustice of this view is generally admitted, except as regards the associa-
tion of prisoners in chapel. Upon this point the evidence is conflicting.

The main objections to the use of separate compartments in chapel appear to
resolve themselves into tNvo ; one moral, the other mechanical. The first is
grounded u|)ou the opinion that a gaol chapel ought to he as much as possible
like a parish churcli ; the second arises from the belief that the compartments,
from the mode of their construction, tend to facilitate rather than impede com-
munication between the prisoners, and to induce them to deface the panels of the
stalls by indecent writings or drawings. Neither of these objections seems to
the Committee to be valid. With regard to the first, they conceive that the
benefits which may be derived from giving a more devotional character to the
chapel cannot outweigh the advantages of preventing the communication of pri-
soners with each other, and of rendering difficult their recognition by their fellow-
prisoners on their discharge. With regard to the second objection, the Committee
think that by adopting arrangements of the same nature as those which are in
force in Bristol Gaol, the separation of the prisoners may be effected without
difficulty. For these reasons the Committee recommend that the separate system
should be carried out in the chapel as well as in every other part of the prison.

Solitary- Confine- V. In regard to solitary confinement, the Committee observe that at the present
"'«°t- time it scarcely forms any part of the ordinary treatment of criminals, except as

a punishment for prison offences, for which purpose it is found to be very
effective.

The Committee are of opinion that it would be possible to substitute, in
many cases, the shorter term of three and seven days' solitary confinement on
bread and water for the present sentences, ranging from seven to 21 days with
hard labour.

By such change in sentences passed by the court, the advantages of a more
efficient discipline and economy in the amount of accommodation required would
be secured.

The principle of sentencing offenders to solitary confinement is sanctioned by
the 43d Clause of the Mutiny Act. and the 24 & 25 Vict. c. 100, s. 70.

VI. 1. There

* This appears actually to be done in the city gaol of Bristol. See Mr. Gardnnr's rvidence.
Sir .J. .lebb has added his testimony to the coni|jlete success, so far as separation is conccrnod, which
is obtained by the system that is there pursued. " I know of one prison," lie says, " which is on the
old construction (I speak now of the prison at Bristol), where a most effective discipline is well kept up
by the governor, with very inadtquate means as regards construction : bo has smiill cells, which are
only fit for sleeping in, and cannot be certified fo separate confinement; but by dividins: his tread-
wheel into close compartments, and letting out the prisoners from their cells at certain distances from
each other, and shutting them up in the compartments of the treadwheel, and marching them back
again to their cells in the same way, no two prisoners can ever see each other, and you really obtain
the advantages of separate confinement without the expense which is entailed by the construction of
;i prison." [leoj.]

ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. vii

VI. 1. There can be little doubt that a large proportion of the discrepancies Labour,
which exist in the discipline administered in different prisons is due to the dif-
ferent construction placed by the local authorities upon the sentence of hard
labour ordered by the Court. Committees of both Houses have repeatedly
recommended, and various statutes have distinctly required, the infliction of
hard labour ; but it is clear from the evidence that there is the widest possible
difference in the opinions held as to what constitutes hard labour. The Com-
mittee believe that, with the best intentions on the part of the local authorities,
there is in many gaols a great and unfortunate misapprehension on this head,
and that until some more precise definition of hard labour is assigned, the grave
public inconvenience and injustice which now arise from the inequalities of
penal discipline in neighbouring counties or even in parts of the same county,
must continue in full force. The first step towards a better and more uniform
system throughout the country, would, in the opinion of the Committee, be found
in an authoritative definition, by Act of Parliament, of the term of hard labour.
Nor does there seem to be in this any practical difficulty. Of the various forms
which are in force in the several prisons, the treadwheel, crank and shot-drill
alone appear to the Committee properly to merit this designation of hard labour.
Of these, the treadwheel aud the crank form the principal elements of penal dis-
cipline, and might be safely prescribed as such in any future Act of Parliament.
But whenever the local authorities mav tliink it necessary to supplement the
treadwheel or crank by further hard labour, recourse may satisfactorily be had
to shot-drill, and this form of hard labour may be combined with the industrial
employment in the later stages of imprisonment. Industrial occupation, though
it may vary in amount and character, is so much less penal, irksome, and
fatiguing, that it can only be classed under the head of light labour. The picking
of oakum must he regarded as an intermediate form of work ; but under no cir-
cumstances, and to no class of prisoners, can iudustrial occupation be made an
equivalent for a corresponding amount of hard labour as admmistered by means
of the wheel, the crank, or the shot-drill.

2. It has been alleged in the course of the evidence, that the use of the tread-
wheel and crank degrades, irritates, and demoralises the prisoner; but the Com-
mittee, after full consideration, see no reason for entertaining this opinion, and,
under certain conditions, they highly approve of the use of both these instruments
of prison discipline. Productive labour, indeed, holds out to the local authorities
the hope of some profit, and is somewhat less irksome to the prisoner : it is
therefore frequently urged, that the crank and wheel, if used at all, should be
confined to the pumping of water, or the grinding of corn, or some other remu-
nerative work. The Committee cannot subscribe to this view. If the local
authorities can make use of the crank or treadwheel for productive work, the
Committee see no objection to such an arrangement, but they think it essential
that every prisoner sentenced to hard labour should be employed upon the
crank or treadwheel for a minimum period, and that in no case should the
regular enforcement of this system be relinquished or impaired for the sake of
making the labour remunerative.

3. In considering the effect of any particular discipline, the Committee have
had to look, not only to the nature and the amount of the hard labour to be
required of every prisoner in order to secure a certain uniformity, but they have
thought it their duty to take into consideration the further difficulties involved
in the different length of sentences. The labour which is fitting and salutary for
a prisoner undergoing a sentence of six, nine, or twelve months, may not be so
appropriate physically or morally, if applied during the last year of confinement.
It appears difficult to lay down any precise rule for the more advanced stages of
imprisonment. There is much disagreement, both of opinion and practice, on this
point, and it is for the local authorities to determine how far the proportion of
hard labour which the Committee are now prepared to recommend for the earlier
stages of imprisonment, may be carried on, supplemented, relaxed, or modified
by some other form of employment. As regards the short sentences or the earlier
stages of imprisonment, the Committee believe that they are adopting a safe and
a moderate standard when they recommend that every prisoner sentenced to
hard labour shall, unless exempted by medical authority on grounds of health,
be employed at the treadwheel or crank not less than eight hours per day the
first three, and not less than six hours per day during the next three months of

(37.) a4 ■ the

via REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE

the first year of imprisonment. They further recommend, that all Gaols andHouses
of Correction sliali, as a condition to their receipt of the Treasury allowance, both
be provided with a sufficient supply of hard labour machinery for the average
number of male prisoners sentenced to, and medically tit for, hard labour, and be,
annually certified to the Secretary of State as giving the full daily minimum
work on treadwheel or crank, as described above.

4. It is however essential, that the tread wheels, as far as possible, be of an
uniform pattern and construction, divided by proper partitions, with machinery
yielding the same number of revolutions in a given time, and with steps of an
equal height; that the cranks be also of an uniform construction, giving- a fixed
pressure, and the screw now regulating that pressure be omitted. Where,
however, any gaol is already furnished with a treadwheel, which can be certified
by the inspector as effective, it would be desirable that the Secretary of State
should sanction their provisional use, subject, however, to the condition that the
pressure of the cranks be adjusted as nearly as possible to the fixed pressure.
It is desirable that a register should be attuched to the treadwheel and the
ordinary crank, and that wherever the cellular crank is used, an index to record
the number of revolutions effected should be fixed within sight of the prisoner.

5. It will be seen that under the changes here proposed, a minimum of hard
labour is provided during the first six months of a prisoner's confinement. The
Committee do not think it necessary to extend their recommendations into further
detail, and they belie. e it will be best left to the local authorities of any gaol, in
which there are the means of giving industrial occupation, to determine whether,
and to what extt-nt, such employment should be a substitute for hard labour
during the remainder of the imprisonment ; but wherever such employment is
given, not less than nine hours per day should be allotted to it.

6. These recommendations, indeed, fall very far short of giving practical effect
to the full powers of punishment sanctioned by the 4 Geo. 4, c. 64, s. 10;
and if the minimum scale of hard labour indicated in the a!)0ve paragraphs be
adopted, there will be in the case of prisoners undergoing the shorter periods
or the earlier stages of confinement, a considerable portion of the dayto be disposed
of. It will be under such circumstances, as already explained, competent for
the local authorities, either to devote that time to industrial occupation where
they have the means of so doing, or to prolong the hard labour at the crank
and treadwheel, if upon consideration this should be found expedient; but there
will be cases where industrial employment cannot be given, and where it is de-
sirable to make some variation in the labour of the wheel and crank. In such
cases, it seems to the Committee that recourse might well be had to shot-drill.
The experience of the Naval Prisons clearly shows that a simple form of shot-drill
is perfectly applicable to other than military offenders, and if the shot be slightly
raised from the ground, this punishment is free fi-om all possible objection in a
physical point of view. They recommend it on the grounds of efficiency, simplicity
and economy as a form of disciplinary correction in aid of, and supplementary
to, the hard labour of the wheel and crank.

dustrial employ- VII. The Committee have had their attention strongly directed by many
'•'"'• witnesses, on the ground both of profit and of individual reformation, to various

modes of industrial emploj'ment which are provided in different gaols with more
or less success. The Committee have not pursued their inquiry far enough to
determine, with any certainty, what proportion the work done bears to its average
cost. They are inclined to doubt whether under the usual circumstances of
any gaol the return from such labour can be said to be very remunerative; but
at all events they are of opinion, that a profitable return from industrial employ-
ment ought not to be made the test of prison efficiency. It is not applicable to all
classes of prisoners, or to all individuals amongst them. Where even it is most
extensively in operation, it does not appear to be the practice to estimate the
labour done by task or piece-work, and by the admission of many witnesses
it would be dillicult to do so. The extent and value of that moral influence,
which industrial employment exercises upon the mind of tlie prisoner, is a matter
which is much debated, but which is obviously not susceptible of direct proof.
The truth probably lies between the extreme views of those who lay great stress
1128. upon, and those who altogether deny the existence of such an influence. The

Committee arc, however, of opinion that industrial occupation is wholly unfit for

those

ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. IX

those offenders who are undergoing a short sentence, or are working out the . ',
earh"er stages of their imprisonment. On all grounds it ought to follow upon i \

the hard labour of the tread-wheel or crank, and ought not to be accepted as an
equivalent for them.

VIII. 1. When Sir J. Graham issued a scale of diet for county and borough Diet,
gaols, it was understood that the dietary was not an integral part of the penal
system then laid down. It is, however, shown by the evidence, that in the
majority of county and borough gaols the diet is supposed to form part of the
punishment, and is more or less regulated upon that supposition. That this
modification of the original system is a salutary one, the Committee cannot
doubt. The low animal natures of too many of the criminal class, and the
admitted efficiency of reductions of food in cases of prison offences, render plain
the value of diet as one form of penal correction. Sir J. Jebb, in his evidence,
states this very clearly : " I think that the deterring elements of the punishment
are hard labour, hard fare, and a hard bed, and for the lowest class in a civil or
a military prison, I should propose that those elements were applied as far as
they could consistently be applied, with a view to deter the men from crime."
The medical witnesses, who have been called, concur in the expediency and 1284.

practicability of this view; and the Committee are of opinion that diet may be
made a just and useful element of penal disci|)line.

2. It is always difficult to arrive at a fair comparison of the conditions of
different classes of men ; but it may be safely laid down, that whilst sufficient in
amount and quality to the requirements of the prisoner's health, the diet ought
not to be in more favourable contrast to the ordinary food of the free labourers
or the inmates of the workhouse, unless sanitary conditions render it necessary.*

3. The dietary of county and borough prisons is very unsatisfactory, from the
total absence of uniformity, and the irreconcileable inequalities in the nature and
the amount of food given, whilst the dietary framed and recommended by the
Secretary of State, and adopted in many prisons though frequently with local
modifications, is not sufficiently based upon scientific and medical principles to
be taken as a satisfactory guide. In the opinion of witnesses who, from know-
ledge and experience, are entitled to every consideration, a scale of food is laid
down in Classes IV. and V. which is beyond the reasonable requirements of health.

4. But whilst these classes are probably in excess of the due amount of food,
it would seem that the Classes below them, I., II., and III., are, in some respects,
defective as regards the quality of the diet ; for whilst the Committee have had
evidence to show that animal food need not enter so largely as is at present the
case under the Home Office Scale into the ingredients of prison food, they are
not at liberty to doubt that the presence of a vegetable element, and particularly
of potatoes, is indispensable as a preservative against scurvy, and that the absence
of it has been proved by experience to be a very serious defect.

The evidence which has been received tends to show that a vegetable and
farinaceous diet, with the assistance of milk and some slight addition of meat,
might be used by prisoners without risk to health. The experience, indeed, of
the military prisons shows that this is possible for the first 56 days of imprisonment,
and the " Penal Class Diet" of Millbank, from which the element of meat is ex-
cluded, proves that such a diet may be sately carried on for upwards of a year.

The Committee are not indeed prepared, (on their own responsibility,) to re-
commend any one table of diet to be made uniform for all prisons in England and
Wales ; but they would draw special attention to the medical evidence which Dr.
Smith and Dr. Guy have given, and to the four principal scales of diet subjoined.

* There is a great conflict of opinion on the comparison of workhouse with prison dietaries.
Several witnesses have expressed a confident belief that the workhouse scale is very much below
that of the gaol. Mr. Oakley, the Governor of Taunton Gaol, compares the diet of 46 union work-
houses with 30 county and borough gaols, and shows, that whilst there is an average of 202 oz. of
solid food and 16 oz. of liquid food to each inmate of the workhouse, there is allowed an average of
267 oz. of solid food and 17 oz. of liquid food to every prisoner during the week (see Appendix F.);
and he believes that workhouse offences are committed from the sole motive of gaining admittance
to the superior fareandcomfortsof the prison. On the other hand, Mr.Lumley, who was summoned
from the Poor Law Board, has given some other figures on the same subject (see Ajjpendix G.),
and expresses his disbelief of the commission of workhouse offences in order to secure a removal 1432.

to the prison.

(37.) b

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ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. m

5. It is a matter for the consideration of the Secretary of State, and of (he |
local authorities in their various districts, how tar the present scale may be with '
advantae;e modified, on the evidence which is annexed to this Report and the
tables of diet as laid down above ; but it appears that there are still medical and
scientific questions as to the eH'ect produced by confinement upon prisoners, and

as to the necessity of certain ingredients in the food, which require further inves-
tigation. Under these circumstances, the Committee recommend that a Com-
mission be issued to iuquire into these questions, with authority to determine by
experiment the points referred to them.

6. Whilst the Committee admit the necessity of giving to the surgeon of
every gaol a discretion by the occasional increase ot food to meet the special
circumstances of individual cases, they cannot but feel that the issue of " extra
diets" to prisoners who are not upon the sick-Ust, is a pov\er to be sparingly
used and carefully watched. It should, in their opinion, be the invariable rule
of every gaol, that the surgeon, when ordering extra diet to any prisoner, should
not only record the fact, but should m writing specify the medical grounds
upon which the alteration is made.

7. It is desirable, for the sake of uniformity, that the respective dietaries of
male and female prisoners should be adjusted by a fixed rule and proportion, and
that boys under 15 years of age should be classed, for the purposes of diet, with
the female prisoners.

IX. I. The efficiency of every prison will depend not only upon its general Prison details,
system, but also upon its subordinate regulations. It is mainly for the local
authorities to determine what tiiese shall be; but there are some of so much
importance, that it would be desirable to embody them in some future Act.

2. The Committee recommend, that, during short sentences or the earlier
stages of a long confinement, the prisoners should be made to dispense with the
use of a mattress, and should sleep upon planks. This is, in fnct, the practice in
the military prisons, where " guard-beds" are in use.* No evil has resulted from
this practice, and recourse might advantageously be had to it in civil prisons.

3. They observe that 9j to 10 hours is the proportion of time usually
devoted to sleep.f They are of opinion that this exceeds the fair allowance
due to health, and is injurious both to the prisoners and the prison discipline.
They would (in conformity with the Resolutions of the Committee of the House
of Commons in 1850) strongly insist upon a limitation of the time, during
v^hich the prisoners are allowed to be in bed, to eight hours.

4. They are of opinion that in order to avoid interference with the discipline
of the prison that all school instruction should be given at a fixed time, and to a
fixed proportion of the prisoners in succession. It does not seem necessary to
amend the Act of Parliament which gives a discretion to the chaplain to call for
any jrisoner at any hour for this purpose; but it is clearly desirable that tiie
chaplain and governor, subject to the control of the visiting justices, should come

to a fixed arrangement on this subject. The evening appears to the Committee 104. 2=4
to be a very suitable time for school instruction, both as follow iuij upon the hard
labour of the day, and as providing occupation for a portion of the time which
is now passed in sleep. But they consider school as a boon granted to the pri-
soner, which should under no circumstances become a substitute for labour.
They regard as extremely unsatisfactory a prison system in which instruction
by the schoolmaster, or " self-instruction," is made the substance of penal
discipline.

5. To give further effect to the above provisions as regards sleep, instruction
and reading, as well as from the great importance of the change in itself, the
Committee recommend that all cells should at the earliest practicable time be
lighted.

6. It appears that by the 4 Geo. 4, c. 64, s. 30, it is obligatory upon the chap- ..q, ,,06.
lain to perform both services on the Sunday, Christmas-day, and Good Friday

between the hours of nine and five. This rule is said to be occasionallv pro-
ductive of inconvenience, and such an alteration ought to be made in the law

• See Rules and Regulations for Military Prisons. April 1868. Section 170.
+ In Bome cases even this proportion is larc^ely exceeded.
(37.) b 2

Xii REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE

as will permit the performance of evening service on those daj'S after tlie hour of
five in the afternoon.

7. The Committee, whilst they believe that the judicious distribution of books to
the prisoners may often be productive of much advantage, \vould suggest the
importance of preventing any over-issue. It would further, in their opinion, be

4310. desirable to modify the 2 & 3 Vict. c. 56, s. 6 — which provides that all books

admitted into the prison shall be chosen by the chaplain for the use of prisoners
belonging to the Church of England and by the visiting justices for the other pri-
soners—so far as to give the visiting justices a joint discretion and responsibility
in the selection and issue of all books.*

8. They consider that all convicted prisoners should be clothed in a prison
dress, and that the amount of clothes allowed, as also of the prison bedding,
should be sufficient, but moderate.

Reformatory X. 1. The possible reformation of offenders is an object which successive

Influences. Committees of both Houses have had in view. The House of Lords Com-

mittees of 1835 and 1847 both refer to it ; the House of Commons Committee
of 1850 recognises its importance in marked terms. The Committee fully admits
that it forms a necessary part of a sound penal system, but they are satisfied that,
in the interests of society and of the criminal himself, it is essential that the
other means employed for the reformation of offenders should always be accom-
panied by due and effective punishment. Sir W. Crofton, indeed, whose
experience on this subject entitles him to much consideration, does not hesitate
to go so far as to say that moral reformation of character is greatly assisted
by a preliminary course of stringent punishment.f

They also believe that the inefficiency of the present system of administering
the law in ordinary prisons is shown in the large proportion of prisoners M'ho,
after undergoing a period of confinement, are again committed to prison under
fresh sentences. The relapse of such prisoners is partly due to the difficulty
which any one of tainted character has in finding employment.

In this view, the question of rendering assistance to prisoners on discharge,
as a preventive measure calculated to reduce the rate of re-convictions, appears
to the Committee to be deserving of serious consideration.

2. The Committee, whilst they are compelled to admit that the reformation
of individual character by any known process of prison discipline is frequently
doubtl'ul, believe that the majority of prisoners are, within certain limits, open
to the influences of encouragement and reward. They therefore attach impor-
tance to the establishment, in every prison, of various gradations, which shall
rise from the penal and disciplinary labour of the treadwheel, crank, or shot
drill, into the higher and less irksome stages of industrial occupation and prison

employments.

4310. * A. "I think a revision of the statute is desirable upon that point. The Od and 3d of Victoria,

chapter 56, section 6, rule 8, says : ' No books or printed papers shall be admitted into any prison
but those -which shall be chosen by the chaplain for the use of prisoners belonp;ing to tlie Esta-
blislied Church, and by the visiting justices for the use of the other prisoners.' 'J'here is an appeal
to the Bishop in case of difference of opinion. I think that equal power should be given to the
visiting justices to select books to be read by the prisoners.

431 1- Q. " On what ground ?

A. " I have seen a novel in a prisoner's cell before now."

3183. +Q. " Your view would be, that, having regard to the requirements of prison discipline, and

the ultimate reformation of the prisoner, the penal element, whether it be by the treadwheel or by
the crank, ought to form a constituent part of that system ?

A. " I am quite satisfied about that, and more now than ever, because nine years since we
established reformatory schools at a great cost of money and time: and I think that when we do
so much to prevent crime, and to train those youths up, so that they shall not pursue criminal
avocations, we are bound, on the other hand, to be more stringent in the punishment of those who
still pursue a course of crime in spite of what we have done for them; and I am quite satisfied
that the managers of reformatory schools would consider their hands to be strengthened by
the prisoner knowing that pursuing a course of crime would lead to really stringent punishment, and
other procedure externally, wliich I shall, I hope, point out presently,
g Q. " It has been given in evidence before tliis Committee by some of the witnesses, that,

" in their opinion, the effect of the treadwheel and the crank is to create a sense of degradation

in the mind of the prisoner; is that your opinion ?

A. " 1 have no doubt it may do so ; but, combined with other industrial pursuits, I think it
miglit be counteracted. I believe that the penal element is so necessary that the feeling of
degradation I must place on one side altogether in my mind."

ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. Xlii

employments. And with that view they would make the entire system strictly
progressive tiiroughout its several stages.

3. They are further disposed to recommend the adoption of some system,
such as that of marks, by which the progress of any prisoner can be recorded,
and his promotion to a higher class accelerated within certain moderate limits.

But it would be undesirable, as indeed it would in practice lead to great incon-
venience, to apply this modification of the ordinary discipline of the prison to
oftenders undergoing short sentences or the earlier stages of confinement. It
might safely be attempted after the first three mouths ; but under no circum-
stances should such promotion be allowed without actual work performed —
concurrently, of course, with personal good conduct.

It should also be clearly understood that any relapse will be visited not only
with forfeiture of the privileges gained, and a return to the more penal classes,
but that it will be necessary for the prisoner, by renewed exertion, to work his
way upwards through the ditierent steps hy which he has been put back.

XI. Punishments for offences committed in prison form so important a part Prison Punish-
of prison discipline, that, under any system, they cannot be overlooked. The ments.
Committee beUeve that in many cases misconduct is best punished by degradation

from a higher to a lower and more penal class, combined with harder labour and a
more sparing diet; in others, by the ordinary penalty of reduction of food, or by
solitary confinement in dark cells — if separated by a sufficient distance from each
other, and from the other ])arts of the prison — but that where the offender is
hardened, and the offence deliberately repeated, corporal punishment is the most
effective, and sometimes the only remedy. The most experienced witnesses are
unanimous as to the wholesome influence of corporal punishment ; some, indeed,
have stated, that they have never known it ineffective; and the Committee wish
to record their opinion of its great value as one form of disciplinary correction.

XII. i. The system of prison inspection arose out of the recommendations Inspection of
of the House of Lords Committee of 1835, and it will be seen, on a reference Prisons.

to the Resolution of that Committee, as well as to the general course of evidence
then taken, that in advising the appointment of official inspectors, it was their
object to secure a general uniformity of discipline.

2. But the great and irreconcileable differences of treatment and system now
prevailing, to which attention has already been called, sufficiently show that this
object has not been attained.

3. Changes have also taken place in the number of, and the work performed
by, the inspectors. The original number was five. This has been gradually
reduced to two, who now divide between themselves the whole of England,
Wales, Scotland, the Isle of Skye, the Orkneys, and the Shetlands. On the
other hand, the amount of inspection given to the different prisons appears to be
less than it was originally intended to be, and than is in itself desirable. The
5 & 6 Will. 4, c. 38, s. 7, obviously contemplates the inspection of every prison
at least once in the course of the year; but it appears by the evidence that in
many cases prisons are visited by the inspector only once in the course of
18 months, and that such visits average in duration from about two to four hours.

4. It further appears that it is not customary, either at the time or after the
inspection of the prison, for the inspector to hold communication with the visiting (.
justices, or even to leave any written record of his visit in the gaol,* nor does '^. '
I heir official report come under the cognizance of the magistrates in quarter
sessions.

5. The

• There is some slight variation as between Mr. Perry and Mr. Voules Mr. Perry, in answer
to the question, " As an ordinary rule, you do not hold communication with the visiting justices, i8.

do you '!" replios, " We ought not to do so according to our instructions ; all our communications
ought to be made through the Secretary of State. As it was expressed to me when I was appointed,
we represent the eyes and ears of the Secretary of State, but not his tongue or voice."

On the other hand, Mr. Voules takes a soinewhat different view of his duties, as shown in the
following examination: —

Q. " Is it your practice to hold any communication with the visiting justices? — A. I invariably jgo-,.

communicate with them if I see any cause for doing so. My practice has been perhaps diSerevt ''

(37.) h 3

XIV REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE

5. The Committee have had the benefit of Mr. Everest's experience as regards
the course pursued at the Home Office, and on a general review of his, Mr. Perry's

76. and Mr. Voule's evidence, they cannot resist the conclusion, ibat for years past

the inspection of prisons has thus been reduced in most cases to a mere formality,
both as regards the supervision itself and the subsequent use made of that
supervision by the Secretary of State and the local authorities in counties and
boroughs.

6. Under these circumstances, the Committee are of opinion that every prison
should be inspected at least once in the course of the year, that the duration of
such visit should be recorded, and that, in the event of any omission to visit such
prison, the inspector should in his report state the fact and the reasons ; that the
reports, when laid before the Secretary of State, should be forwarded by him at
the earliest practicable moment to the Quarter Sessions in every county, and the
Town Coimcil in every boroujih — such report to be addressed through the Clerk,
of the Peace in counties, and the Town Clerk in boroughs.

7. The Committee give full credit to both the inspectors for their wish to
improve the general condition of the gaols placed under their supervision ; but
they feel bound to express their dissent fmni many of the ruling principles of
prison disci|iline, which they, and especially Mr. Perry, have laid down. They
do not consider that the moral reformation of the offender holds the primary place
in the prison system; that mere industrial employment without wages is a suffi-

695. cient punishment for many crimes ; that punishment in itself is morally prejudicial

to the criminal and useless to society, or that it is desirable to abolish both the
crank and treadwheel as soon as possible.

Pi ison Regulations XIII. — 1. It is obvious that to secure an efficient discipline, every gaol must

and Funcnons of have a definite code of rules under which it is governed. It is indeed clear that

slat?""'^'^ "'^ -^"^ ^^^ ^'1^ intention of the Legislature. The 5 & 6 Will. 4 contemplates the

existence of certain regulations in every prison, and with that view, a code of

rules has been issued by the Secretary of State for the information and adoption

32-82. of the local authorities.

But as their acceptance is left to the discretion of the local authorities, a com-
paratively small number of gaols in England and Wales have adopted the rules
as framed by the Secretary of State. In some prisons neither the rules as laid
down by the Secretary of State, nor any other rules framed by the governing
body, and approved by him, are in existence ; and in the remaining gaols the
regulations vary indefinitely according to the views of the governing body.

It is indeed quite true, that it is within the competency of the Secretary of State,
under 5 k 6 Will. 4, c. 38, s, 6, on default of the framing of the regulations by
the local authorities, to certify such rules as he shall deem necessary for the go-
vernment of any prison which shall then become binding. It appears, however,
that this power has never been exercised by the Secretary of State.

231 r. 2. The Committee are of opinion that such rules for gaols as may be thought

advisable should be embodied as a schedule in an Act of Parliament, and that the
Treasury allowance should be withheld from all gaols where those rules are not in
force.

XIV.— I. The

from some other inspectors, inasmuch as I have generally conferred with the visiting justices,
instead of making a report direct to ihe Homo Office, althoujjh I believe that in doing so I am
not acting in strict accordance with the directions to the inspectors ; but I liave found that I get
more done bj doing go than by simply making an official report."

J909. Q- " Have you found that your communications with the visiting justices have led in general to

the correction of any evil or abuse which you have pointed out, or to any change which you have
thought desirable? — ^. When T have communicated directly with tlio visiting justices, I have
found generally that they are very much disposed to carry out any iinprovemciil tli:it I have sug-
gested ; that is more especially the case in the counties. In the borough gaols it is dilforent. because
the magistrates there have not the same power. The town council alone controlling the purse-
strings, the magistrates cannot make any order whiih would render an outlay of mmey necessary.
Q. " Are your communications with the visiting justices in general verbal or written .' — A. Our
communications are generally verbal. They sometimes ask me to put the matter in writing, in order
that they may lay it before their colleagues; but I seldom meet a visiting justice in a gaol, unless
I write bet'oreliaiid to him ; therefore, there must necessarily be written communications."

1910

ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. XV

XIV. — 1. The Committee have examined the governors of several of the minor Borough and
gaols, who have given their evidence with great frankness, and have fully admitted Liberty Prisons.
the difficulties and inconveniences which arise in their management. This evi-
dence is strongly corroborated by the inspectors and other witnesses; and the
Committee, though obviously unable to inquire into each individual case, feel
satisfied that a large proportion of the smaller borough prisons are deficient in
proper accommodation and in the means of safe custody, and are distinguished
neither by efficiency of administration nor by economy of expenditure.

Many of these minor prisons are little in use, for it appears by the judicial
statistics of 1862, that out of 193 prisons in England and Wales, there were
63 which, during the entire year, gave admittance to less than 25 prisoners ; and
that of these there were 22 prisons which received between 11 and 25 prisoners;
14 prisons which received less than 11, and more than six ; and 27 prisons which
received less than six prisoners, or in some instances were absolutely tenantless.

2. Some of these gaols, such as that of Falmouth, have repeatedly been con- '*4.
demned in the inspectors' reports as altogether unfit for the custody and penal
discipline of prisoners, and it would almost seem that the inspector in such cases

has given up the fruitless duty of making his inspection, and republishing his
annual censure. There is frequently an unrestrained association of untried with
convicted, juvenile with adult prisoners, vagrants, misdemeanants, felons ; dor-
mitories wholly without light or control or regulation exist, and in one case the
governor admits that, in the event of a disturbance at night amongst the prisoners,
the warder on duty would not be allowed to enter the room, for fear of an assault
being made upon him ; occasionally two and more prisoners have been allowed to 4624..

sleep in the same bed. in one instance the beds themselves have been removed, 114.

lest the prisoners should break them up and make use of the fragments, whilst ug.

in another gaol the beds form so large an element of the life of the prisoners,
that no less than 15 hours out ot the 24 are allowed to be given to sleep. It appears 186.

that in several places tiie building itself is out of repair, or is overlooked by ad-
joining houses; that sometimes one man alone is in charge of the gaol, and
responsible for its security; that, in one case, so little facility is there for carrying
on the ordinary administration of the establishment, that the prisoners' food is 115.

supplied daily from the neighbouring inn, and the innkeeper's bill constitutes
the only accounts which are kept ; that there are times of complete idleness, when
neither penal labour nor light employment is given, and that amongst many other 299. 301.

abuses communications of a contaminating and injurious tendency take place
between the prisoners.

3. In reviewing this unsatisfactory and discreditable condition of many of the
minor borough gaols, the Committee cannot conceal from themselves that it is
in a great measure due to a disinclination on the part of the town councils
or governing bodies to provide the necessary means for the proper administra-
tion of the prison. In one instance, where the visiting justices of the borough
as a measure of common prudence, appointed a warder to assist the governor,
who is the only functionary in the gaol, the Town Council have declined to
confirm this order, and the warder remains unpaid.

In the same prison no chaplain has been appointed, although the 2 Sc 3 Vict. 5224'

c. 56, s. 15, makes this obligatory upon the authorities of every gaol.

4. Under these circumstances, the Committee are of opinion that an amalga-
mation of such small gaols with the larger prisons is highly desirable and even
necessary, in order to secure greater economy and efficiency of administration.
Powers indeed both of amalgamation and of contracting for the keep and main-
tenance of prisoners exist under the 16 k 17 Vict. cap. 43, and the latter course
has been occasionally adopted ; but little advantaiie lias been taken of the former.

Such being the case, the Committee recommend that further powers should be i"'^~'

conferred upon the Secretary of State to require the corporation of any borough,
or the governing body of any borough gaol — where such gaol is of too limited a
size to admit of satisfactory arrangements being made for the custody and disci-
pline of the prisoners — to contract with the county gaol upon such terms as
the Secietary of State shall approve. It will be desirable after due inquiry into
the hiCcd and special circumstances, that those borough gaols which are not " '

required for purposes of present or future utility, should be scheduled in a Bill
for entire abolition.

(37 ; b 4 The

XVI REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE

The same principle of amalgamation might also be perhaps beneficially adopted
in some of the small county gaols.

The majority of liberty prisons were recently abolished, and there are few
now existmsi ; but their superiority over the small borough prisons is verv ques-
tionable, and after due examination into each individual case, the course of pro-
ceeding which is indicated above, might be advantageously taken.

5. A consolidation of the various statutes, and parts of statutes, relatini: to
the discipline and regulation of county and borough prisons, is desirable at the
earliest practicable time.

Identification of XV. — 1. x\lthough the proof of former convictions is not one which is direct!}-

previously com- involved in the question of prison discipline, the attention of the Committee
victed Prisoners, has SO frequently during the course of examination been drawn to the great
public inconvenience, which is i'elt from the difficulty in identifying a previously
convicted prisoner, that they cannot close their report without indicating, both
the extent of the evil and the suggestion of a remedy. The Committee are
satisfied that it ts of the greatest importance that those offenders who are com-
mencing a course of ci'ime should be made aware that each repetition of it, duly
recorded and proved, will involve a material increase of punishment, pain, and
inconvenience to them.

Sir W. Crofton states, with great clearness, the prejudicial effect wliich the diffi-
culty of identifying previously convicted prisoners has had in Ireland, and he has
indicated photography as a simple means by which it has been in a great measure
obviated :*

2. The

* " I believe," he says, " that at the present time the want of records and knowledge of the
antecedents of the prisoners who come to the county and boroutjh prisons leads to the large
number of okl offenders and old convicts wlio are now under detention in those prisons — to the
detriment of the discipline of the establishment, to the cost of the county rate, and, worse than
all, to the encouragement of crime, because in every gaol there are novices and tyros in crime ;
and we find old convicts, who have probably been under sentence of penal servitude for a long
period, who have been living for many years in crime, suddenly for a month or six weeks' impri-
sonment, side by side with a young hand who is just commencing a criminal career; and the
effect upon the mind of the person who has just commenced a career of crime, of knowing that
such immunity exists for a criminal, must be very fatal to what we want, which is the reduction
of crime throughout the country. I should therefore wish to see some arrangements and appliances
instituted which would serve in some measure, as far as possible, to check such a state of things.
I believe that if the criminal classes knew, and those who are commencing crime knew, and
those who are in reformatory schools knew, that the end of a criminal career must be a long
sentence of penal servitude, terminating with a civil disability in the shape of supervision, because
the man would then have proved himself to belong to the criminal classes, I believe that the effect
of that knowledge operating upon the mind of those people, would do more to reduce crime than
any stringent proceeding that we could adopt inside our prisons. And one arrangement for that
purpose (it may appear a trifling one, but it is a very efficient one, I can say after many years'
experience) is the institution of photography. I believe that if every man were photographed when
he came to prison the first time, and on the serond conviction if that photograph were sent to
the head of the police, it would have a very great deterrent effect with regard to crime on the
minds of those prisoners. In Ireland for manv years we have been carrying out this plan, and I
have brought a sample with me. We have a photograph taken of every man who comes into the
])rison, and by a contract which we have entered into we have three of them for I s., and after the
third for 4d. each; you can have as many as you please to send round. This (pj-oc'nring a
phntor/rapfi) is the result of that expense. I can assure the Committee that the effect of the know-
ledge of that on the minds of those people can scarcely be exaggerated. Many people will say
that a man may make faces, and disguise himself while he is being photographed ; that is quite true.
I found for the first fortnight that there was nothing else but contortions on the part of the
prisoners to evade this practice; but after a fortnight there were no faces made, and they all
submitted to it. I am quite satisfied it has a very great effect upon them, because the police
then know them all, and can trace them by this means; and that system, coupled with other
procedure, will, I am satisfied, have more effect in reducing crime than anything I know of, because
it will lead at once to a man being suspected, and in many cases they woidd know him at once
when they see that photograph sent, without any further trouble about identification. Wo have an
arrangement in Ireland in all the county prisons which works extremely well ; whenever they have
any offender whom they either suspect or know to be a con\-ict, they send to the Directors' office
the particulars of the person of the man who is sent for trial in this form, which I will hand to the

3'^4^'' Committee, which description is sant to every county gaol in Ireland."

* » » •

" The case before your Lordships illustrates my view. A man for picking pockets would probably,
under ordinary circumstances, have had a very short period of imprisonment in the County Prison,
but his antecedents being thoroughly known as they were was the cause of his having 20 years'
penal servitude. <

3247. Q. " I understand that this system of photographing is applied in Ireland only to the case of penal

servitude men? — In some county gaols in Ireland, they have adopted it in other cases ; but I have

ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. XVU

2. Tlie Governors of Bristol, Wakefield and Leeds Gaols, corroborate the
advantage of the use of photography,* and the Committee strongly recommend
the further extension of this system, which is inexpensive, etl'ective, and wholly
free from objection.

been referrinj; to the case of penal servitude men. I would carry it further, and use it for men under
short sentences, and use it with the police wlien a man comes a second time back to prison.

Q. " There could be no possible difficulty in applying it to persons in confinement in county 3248.

prisons ? — None whatever ; it v.ould be the greatest possible advantage. I could mention two
other cases illustrating the same thing; and the extent to which it has enabled county gaols to be

cleared of old offenders who have been convicts has been very great."

*****

Q. " Would there be any difficulty in extending that system, and in having a thorough com- 3250.

munication between county prison and country prison ? — There would be no objection to it whatever ;
it would be quite as easy as fiom the Directors' Office."

* See Mr. Gardner's evidence (3.583). " I introduced some years ago (indeed I was the first
who introduced them) the daguerreotvpe portraits of the prisoners, and, from having succeeded
in one or two cases, we introduced it more freeiy ; we now take a large number of portraits, and I
think it would be very difficult for a man to escape detection in our gaol. I take a stereoscopic
picture instead of a plain portrait, and I request the parties to whom I send it to put it into the
stereoscope ; they have a better opportunity of seeing the man before them standing out in relief.

Q. " Do you take a portrait of every prisoner who is committed to your gaol 7 — We do not. 'i';84.

I do it myself; and I have no time to take so many. We merely take portraits of those whom we
do not know. Railway thieves, and strangers to the city, who are taken up for picking pockets
at the railway stations and in railway carriages.

Q. " Have you found the practical advantages of that system ? — Yes, I have found out a great 3585.

many by that means. On one occasion I recollect an officer of mine being offered a large sum of
money by the wife of a prisoner to release him. He was offered 100 l. This was reported to me ;
and I thought that as the man had only three months more to serve, he certainly must be wanting
somewhere else. I took his portrait directly, and sent it round to perhaps -10 or 50 different gaols,
and he was recognised at last at Dover. I had an order from the Secretary of State to remove
him, instead of discharging him. I removed him on a Friday, and on ihe following Friday he
was sentenced to 15 years' transportation, for highway robbery."

Oi .

( xviii )

ORDER OF REFERENCE.

Die Veneris, 20° Fehruarii, 1863.

Select Committee appointed to considei' and report on the present State of Discipline
in Gaols and Houses of Correction.

The Lords following were named of the Committee: The Committee to meet on

Tuesday next, at Four o'clock, and to appoint their own Chairman.

Lord President.
Duke of Richmond.
Duke of Marlborough.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Malmesbury.
Earl of Romney.

Earl Cathcart.
Earl of Ducie.
Earl of Dudley.
Viscount Eversley.
Lord Wodehouse.
Lord Wensleydale.
Lord Lyveden.

Die Jovis, 12" Martii, 1863.

The Evidence taken before the Select Committee from time to time, to be printed for
the use of the Members of this House ; but no Copies thereof to be delivered, except to
the Members of the Committee, until further Order.

( xix )

LORDS PRESENT, AND MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS AT THE
SITTING OF THE COMMITTEE.

Die Martis, 24" Februarii, 1863.

LORDS PRESENT:

Lord President.
Duke of Marlborough.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Malmesbury.

Order of Reference read.

Earl Cathcart.
Earl of Diicie.
Earl of Dudley.
Viscount Eversley.
Lord Wodehouse.

Order of the House of the 20th February, empowering the Committee to name their
own Chairman, read.

It is proposed that the Earl of Carnarvon do take the Chair ; the same is agreed to,
and the Earl of Carnarvon takes the Chair accordingly.

The course of Proceeding is considered.

Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next, at One o'clock.

Die Martis, 3" Martii, 1863.

LOKDS PRE8ENT:

Lord President.
Duke of Marlborough.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Malmesbury.
Earl of Romney.

Earl Cathcart.
Earl of Ducie.
Earl of Dudley.
Viscount Eversley.
Lord Wodehouse.
Lord Lyvedeu.

The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair.

Order of adjournment read.

The Proceedings of the Committee of Tuesday last are read.

John George Perry, Esq., Inspector of Prisons in the Southern District, is called in, and
examined. (F?«?e the Evidence.)

Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Thursday next, at One o'clock.

(37.)

AX PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE

Uie Jocis, [>" Martii, lii63.

LOKDS PRESENT :

Duke of Marlborough.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Caraarvon.
Earl of Malmesbury.
Earl of Eomnev.

Earl Cathcart.
Eiirl of Ducie.
Eai-1 of Dudley.
Lord Wodehouse.
Lord Lyveden.

The Earl of Carxakvon in the Chair.

Order of adjournment read.

The Proceedings of the Committee of Tuesday last read.

John George Pern/, Esq., Inspector of Prisons, is again called in, and further
examined. ( Vide the Evidence.)

Ordered, That the Conmiittee be adjourned to Monday next, at One o'clock.

Die Luna, 9^ Martii, 1863.

LORDS PRE.SENT :

Lord President.
Duke of Marlborough.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Malmesbury.

The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair,

Earl of Romney.
Earl Cathcart.
Earl of Ducie.
Lord Wodehouse.

Order of adjournment read.

The Proceedings of the Committee of Thursday last are read.

Edward Smith, Esq., M. D., is called in, and examined. ( Vide the Evidence.)

Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Thursday next, at One o'clock.

Die Joris, 12'' Martii, 1863.

LORDS PRESENT :

Duke of Richmond.
Duke of Marlborough.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Romnev.

Earl Cathcart.
Earl of Ducie.
Viscount Eversley.
Lord Wodehouse.
Lord Lyveden.

The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair.

Order of adjournment read.

The Proceedings of the Committee of Monday last are read.

MajorGeneral Sir Joshua Jebb, K. C.B., Surveyor-General of Prisons, is called in, and
examined. ( Vide the Evidence.)

John George Perry, Esq., Inspector of Prisons, is again called in, and further exa-
mined. ( Vide the Evidence.)

Ordered, That the Committee be arljourncd to Tuesday next, at One o'clock.

ON PRISON DISCIPLINE.

XXI

Die Martis, 1/° Martii, 1863.

LORDS PRESENT :

Lord President.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Malmesbury.
Earl of Eomney.

Earl Cathcart.
Earl of Ducie.
Earl of Dudley.
Viscount Eversley.
Lord Wodehouse.

The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair.

Order of adjournment read.

The Proceedings of the Committee of Thursday last are read.

The following Witnesses are called in, and examined; viz.. Major William Fulford,
R. A., Governor of the Staftbrd County Gaol, and William Musson, Esq., Governor of the
Leicester County Gaol. ( Vide the Evidence.)

Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next, at One o'clock.

Die Mar lis, 24° Martii, 1863.

LORDS PRESENT I

Duke of IMarlborough.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Malmesbury.
Earl of Romney.

The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair,

Earl Cathcart.
Earl of Ducie.
Viscount Eversley.
Lord Wodehouse.
Lord Lyveden.

Order of adjournment read.

The Proceedings of the Committee of Tuesday last are read.

Albert Poulton Voules, Esq., Inspector of Prisons in the Northern District, is called in,
and examined. ( Vide the Evidence.)

Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Thursday next, at One o'clock.

Die Jovis, 26° Martii, 1863.

LORDS PRESENT :

Duke of Marlborough.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of ]Malmesbury.
Earl of Romney.

Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair.

Earl Cathcart.
Earl of Ducie.
Earl of Dudley.
Lord Wodehouse.
Lord Lyveden.

Order of adjournment read.

The Proceedings of the Committee of Tuesday last are read.

The following Witnesses are called in, and examined ; viz., G. Everest, Esq., and
Captain Charles Maxwell Luckraft, r.n., Governor of the Naval Prison at Lewes. ( Vide
the Evidence.)

Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Thursday, the 16th of April next.

(37.)

xxu

PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE

Die Jovis, 16° Aprilis, 1863.

LOKDS PRESENT :

Lord President.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Malmesbury.
Earl of Romney.
Earl Cathcart.

Earl of Dudley.
Viscount Eversley.
Lord Wodehouse.
Lord Wensleydale.
Lord Lyveden.

In the absence of the Earl of Carnarvon, it is proposed that the Marquess of Salisbury
do take the Chair.

The same is agreed to, and the Marquess of Salisbury takes the Chair accordingly.

Order of adjournment read.

The Proceedings of the Committee of Thursday, the 26th of March last, arc read.

The following Witnesses are called in, and examined ; viz., William Merry, Esq., and
Edward Shepherd, Esq. ( Vide the Evidence.)

Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next, at One o'clock.

Die Martis, -IV Aprilis, 1863.

LORDS PRESENT :

Duke of Richmond.
Duke of Marlborough.
Mar(iuess of Salisbury.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Romney.

Earl Cathcart.
Earl of Ducie.
Earl of Dudley.
Lord Wensleydale.
Lord Lyveden.

The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair.

Order of Adjournment read.

The Proceedings of the Committee of Thursday last are read.

Edward Shepherd, Esq., is again called in, and fui'ther examined. ( Vide the Evidence.)

Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Thursday next, at Twelve o'clock.

Die Jovis, 2.3° Martii, 18«;5.

Duke of Richmond.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Carnarvou.
Earl of Romney.
Earl Cathcart.

LORDS PRESENT :

Earl of Ducie.
Earl of Dudley.
Lord Wodehouse.
Lord Wensleydale.
Lord Lyveden.

The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair.

Order of adjournment read.

The Proceedings of the Committee of Tuesday last are read.

Sir fValter Crofton is called in, and examined. ( Vide the Evidence.)

Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to To-morrow, at One o'clock.

ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. xxiii

Die Veneris, 24° Aprilis, 1863.

LORDS PRESENT

Duke of Richmond.
Marquess of Salisbury
Lord Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon.

Earl of Romney.
Earl of Ducie.
Earl f)f Dudley.
Lord Wensleydale.

The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair.

Order of adjournment read.

The Proceedings of the Committee of yesterday are read.

The following Witnesses are called in, and examined ; viz. William Oakley, Esq.,
Governor of the Taunton Gaol ; William Golden Lumley, Esq. ; and James Anthony
Gardner, Esq., Governor of the Bristol Gaol. {Vide the Evidence.)

Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next, at One o'clock.

Die Martis, 28' Aprilis, 1863.

LORDS PRESENT :

Duke of Richmond
Lord Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Romney.
Earl of Ducie.

Earl of Dudley.
Viscount Eversley.
Lord Wodehouse.
Lord Wensleydale.
Lord Ly veden.

The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair.

Order oi' adjournment read.

The Proceedings of the Committee of Friday last are read.

The following Witnesses are called in, and examined; viz. William Augustus Guy,
Esq., M.D.J and George Pinson, Esq., Governor of Norwich Castle. ( Vide the Evidence.)

Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Thursday next, at One o'clock.

Die Jovis, 30° Aprilis, 1863.

lords PRESENT;

Duke of Richmond.
Duke of Marlborough.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Earl of St. Germans.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Romney.

Earl Cathcart.
Earl of Duoie.
Earl of Dudley.
Viscount Eversley.
Lord Wodehouse.
Lord Wensleydale.

The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair.

Order of adjournment read.

The Proceedings of the Committee of Tuesday last are read.

William Linton, Esq., Governor of the Petworth Gaol, is called in, and examined. {Vide
the Evidence.)

Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Saturday next, at half-past Eleven
o'clock.

(37.) C 4

XXIV

PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE

Die Sabbati, 2° Mali, 1863.

Eai-1 Cathcart.
Earl of Dudley.
Viscount Eversley.

LORDS PRESENT:

Marquess of Salisbury.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Eomney.

The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair.

Order of adjournment read.

The Proceedings of the Committee of Thursday last are read.

The following Witnesses are called in, and examined; viz. Major C. IF. Bannister,
Governor of the Maidstone Gaol, and Mr. Charles Augustus Keene, Governor of the
Leeds Gaol. ( Vide the Evidence.)

Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next, at One o'clock.

Die Martis, 5° Maii, 1863.

LORDS PRESENT ;

Marquess of Salisbury.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Romney.
Earl Cathcart.

Earl of Dudley.
Viscount Eversley.
Lord Wodehouse.
Lord Wensleydale.
Lord Lyveden.

The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair.

Order of adjournment read.

The Proceedings of the Committee of Saturday last are read.

The following Witnesses are called in, and examined ; viz., Mr. John Deayton, governor
of the St. Alban's Liberty Gaol ; Mr. George ffliitehaU, Governor of the Poole Borough
Gaol ; Mr. Joseph Constance, Governor of the New Radnor Borough Gaol. ( Vide
the Evidence.)

Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Thursday next, at One o'clock.

Die Jovis, T Midi, 1863.

lords present :

Lord Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Romney.
Earl Cathcart.
Earl of Ducie.

Earl of Dudley.
Lord Wodehouse.
Lord Wensleydale.
Lord Lyveden.

The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair.

Order of adjournment read.

The Proceedings of the Committee of Tuesday last, are read.

The following Witnesses are called in, and examined ; viz., Colonel Thomas Harpvr
Coloille, Governor of Coldbath Fields Prison ; Mr. William Griffiths, Governor of the
Worcester Borough Gaol ; Mr. George Julgan, Governor of the Falmouth Borough Gaol;
and William Augustus Gug, U.I)., is again called in, and further examined. (^Vide the
Evidence.)

Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Thursday next.

ON PRISON DISCIPLINE.

XXV

Die Jovis, 14° Mali, 1863.

LOEDS present:

Lord President.
Duke of Richmond.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Romney.

Earl Cathcart.
Earl of Ducie.
Earl of Dudley.
Viscount Eversley.
Lord Wodehouse.
Lord Wensleydale.
Lord Lyveden.

The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair.

Order of adjournment read.

The Proceedings of the Committee of Thursday last are read.

Heads for a Draft Report are laid before the Committee by the Chairman.

The same are read, and considered.

Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Friday, the 19th of June next.

Die Vefieris, 19° Jimii, 1863.

LORDS PRESENT:

Lord President.
Duke of Richmond.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Malmesbury.

Earl of Diicie.
Viscount Eversley,
Lord Wodehouse.
Lord Wensleydale.
Lord Lyveden.

The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair.

Order of adjournment read.

The Proceedings of the Committee of the 14th of May last are read.
A Draft Report is laid before the Committee by the Chairman.
The same is read, and several amendments are made therein.
Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next.

Die Martis, 23° Junii, 1863.

LORDS PRESENT ;

Duke of Richmond.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon.

Eai'l of Ducie.
Viscount Eversley.
Lord Wodehouse.
Lord Lyveden.

The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair.

Order of adjournment read.

The proceedings of the Committee of Friday last are read.

The Draft Report is again considered, and further amendments are made therein.

Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned till Friday next, at Twelye o'clock.

(37.)

Xxvi PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE

Die Veneris, 26" J unit, 1863.

Dul?e of Kichmond.
Duke of Marlborough.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon.

LORDS present:

Earl of Ducle.
Viscount Eversley.
Lord Wodehouse.
Lord Wensleydale
Lord Lyveden.

The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair.

Order of adjournment read.

The Proceedings of the Committee of Tuesday last are read.

The Draft Report is again considered, and further amendments are made therein.

It is moved by the Lord Wensleydale that the further consideration of the Report be
postponed, and that further evidence be taken with a view to the framing of a scale of diet
to be made uniform in all prisons.

Objected to ; and, on question, resolved in the negative.

The following paragraph of the Draft Report (VIIl. 3), is then read, and is as follows.

VIZ ;

" The dietary of county and borough prisons is very imsatisfactory, from the total
absence of uniformity, and the irreconcileable inequalities in the nature and tlie amount of
" food given, whilst the dietary framed and recommended by the Secretary of State, and
" adopted in many prisons, though frequently with local modifications, is not sufficiently
" based upon scientific and medical principles to be taken as a satisfactory guide. In the
" opinion of witnesses who, from knowledge and experience, are entitled to every con-
" sideration, a scale of food is laid down in Classes IV. and V. which is beyond the
" reasonable requirements of health."

It is proposed by the Lord Wodehouse to leave out from " guide," in line 5 of the para-
graph, to the end of the paragraph, and to substitute the following words in lieu thereof,
viz. : —

" The Committee would draw special attention to the valuable evidence of Dr. Smith
" and Dr. Guy, and to the four scales of diet subjoined, but they are not prepared on their
" own responsibility to frame a new prison dietary. It appears to the Committee that
" there are many questions as to the effect produced upon health by imprisonment, and
" the necessity of certain ingredients in prison food, which require further investigation
" before a uniform dietary can be safely framed for all prisons in England and Wales; and
" they therefore recommend that a Commission be issued to inquire into the whole subject
" of prison diet."

Objected to.

On Question, that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the paragraph:

Not Contents.

Duke of Richmond.
Lord Steward.
Lord Wodehouse.
Lord Lyveden.

Contents.

Duke of Marltorough.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Ducie.
Viscount Eversley.
Lord Wensleydale.

The following paragraph of the Draft Report (VIIL 4), is then read, and is as follows;
viz. : —

" But whilst these classes are probably in excess of the due amount of food, it would
" seem that the Classes below them, I., II., III., arc, in some respects, defective as regards
" the quality of the diet ; for whilst the Committee have had evidence to show that animal
" food need not enter so largely as is at present the case under the Home Office Scale
" into the ingredients of prison food, they are not at liberty to doubt that the presence of
" a veget<able element, and particularly of potatoes, is indispensable as a preservative
" against scurvy, and that the absence of it has been proved by experience to be a very
" serious defect. The evidence which has been received tends to show that a vegetable
" and farinaceous diet, with the assistance of milk and some slight addition of meat, might
" be used by prisoners without risk to health. The experience, indeed, of the military
" prisons shows that tliis is possihle for the first 56 days of imprisonment, and the ' Penal
" Class Diet' of Millbank, from which the clement of meat is excluded, proves that such
" a diet may be safely carried on for upwards of a year."

ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. XXVll

It is proposed by the Duke of Richmond to leave out from " defect," in line 8 of the
paragraph to the end of the paragraph.

Objected to.

On Question, that the words proposed to be left out, stand part of the paragraph.

Contents.

Duke of Marlborough.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Ducie.
Viscount Eversley.
Lord Wensleydale.

Not Contents.

Duke of Richmond.
Lord Steward.
Lord Wodehouse.
Lord Lyveden.

The following paragraph of the Draft Report is then read, and is as follows ; viz. : —

" The Committee have been during the course of the evidence forcibly impressed with
" the anomaly, that under the ordinary practice of English gaols, the shorter sentence,
" and probably, therefore, the minor oifence, is followed by a very severe diet, whilst
" the longer sentence, which represents the heavier offence, carries with it an ample if
" not an excessive proportion of food. This inconsistency has doubtless originated in a
" fear of impairing the health of the prisoner sentenced to long periods of confinement ; but
" after a careful review of the medical evidence submitted to them, the Committee think
" that it is possible to reconcile the double principle of making the food in short sentences
" as scanty and uninviting as is consistent with health, and of augmenting that food in pro-
" portion to the increase of sentence. They fully admit the justice of Dr. Guy's proposal,
" that the diet should increase with the imprisonment in as proportionate and equal a
" degree as is practicable : and that in this view there should be some constant elements,
" such as bread, subject to which the addition in each such successive stage should be
" made ; but under all circumstances they would recommend that for the future the diet
" should be made progressive, and that all prisoners should commence with the lowest
" class."

It is moved by the Duke of Richmond, to leave out from the beginning of the para-
graph to " this " in 1. 5 of the paragraph.

Objected to.

On Question, that the words proposed to be left out stand pai-t of the paragraph.

Contents.

Duke of Marlborough.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Ducie.
Lord Wensleydale.

Not Contents.

Duke of Richmond.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Lord Stewai-d.
Viscount Eversley.
Lord Wodehouse.
Lord Lyveden.

It is then moved by the Chairman that the paragraph, as amended, stand part of the
report.

Objected to.

On Question, resolved in the Negative.

The following paragraph of the Draft Report (X. I.) is then read, and is as follows,
viz. : —

" The possible refonnation of offenders is an object which successive Commitees of both
" Houses have had in view. The House of Lords Committees of 1835 and 1847 both
" refer to it ; the House of Commons Committee of 1850 recognizes its importance in
" marked terms. The Committee fully admits that it forms a necessary part of a sound
" penal system ; but they are satisfied that in the interests of society and of the criminal
" himself, it is essential that the other means employed for the reformation of offenders
" should always be accompanied by due and effective punishment. Sir \V. Crofton, indeed,
" whose experience on this subject entitles him to much consideration, does not hesitate to
" go so far as to say that moral reformation of character is greatly assisted by a preliminary
" course of stringent punishment."

It is proposed by the Duke of Richmond, to leave out from " punishment" in line 7 of
the paragraph to the end of the paragraph.

Objected to.

(37.) e On

XXVIU

PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE

On Question, that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the paragi-aph.

Contents. Not Contents.

Marquess of Salisbury. Duke <if Richmond.

Lord Steward. Lord Wodehouse.

Earl of Carnarvon.
Viscount Eversley.
Lord AV ensleydale.
Lord Lyveden.

The following paragraph of the Draft Report, (X. 3,) is then read, and is as follows: —

" They are further disposed to recommend the adoption of some system such as that of
" marks, by which the progress of any prisoner can be recorded, and his promotion to a
" hiffher class accelerated within certain moderate limits."

It is proposed by the Duke of Richmond to leave out the words " such as that
" of marks," in lines 1 and 2 of the paragraph.

Objected to.

On Question, that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the paragraph.

Not Contents.
Duke of Richmond.

Contents.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Viscount Eversley.
Lord Wodehouse.
Lord Wensleydale.
Lord Lyveden.

Ordered, That the Committee be adjourned to Monday the Gth July, at Two o'clock.

Die Lwice, 6" JuUi, 18G3.

LORDS PRESENT

Duke of Richmond.
Duke of Marlborough.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon.

Earl of Romney.
Earl of Dudley.
Viscount Eversley.
Lord Wodehouse.
Lord Lyveden.

The Earl of Carnarvon in the Chair.
Order of adjournment read.

The Proceedings of the Committee of Friday last are read.
The Draft Report is again considered, and further amendments are made therein.

The following paragraph of the Draft Report (XII. 7) is then read, and is as follows : —
" The Committee give full credit to both the inspectors for their wish to improve the
" general condition of the gaols placed under their supervision ; but, looking to their
" official position, and the natural influence exercised by them, the Committee feel bound,
" in conclusion, to express their dissent from many of the ruling principles of prison dis-
" cipline, which they, and especially Mr. I'erry, liave laid down. They do not consider
" tliat the moral reformation of the offender holds the primary place in tlie prison system ;
" that mere industrial employment without wages is a sufficient punishment for many
" crimes ; that punishment in itself is morally prejudicial to the criminal and useless to
" society, or that it is desirable to abolish both the crank and treadwheel as soon as
" possible."

It is proposed by the Duke of Marlhnrouf/h to leave out the words " looking to the
" official position, and the natural influence exercised by them," in lines 2 and 3 of the
paragrapli.

Objected to.

On Question, that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the paragraph.

Contents.

Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Riimney.
Earl of Dudley.
Viscount Eversley.
Lord Lyveden.

Not Contentsv

Duke of Richmond.
Duke of Marlborough.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Lord Steward.
Lord AVodehousc.

The

ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. XXIX

The division being equal, resolved in the Negative.

Further Amendments are made in the paragraph, and the same is agreed to.

The following paragraph of the Draft Report is proposed by the Chairman ; the same
is read, and is as follows ;

" It is perhaps doubtful whether any such power would be exercised by a Secretary of
" State, if the responsibility of taking action should rest solely with him. The enforce-
'• ment of rules by his direct authority will be always attended with some difficulty, and
" there will probably be less risk of failure if a legislative requirement can be made the
" substitute for personal or official responsibility. It will therefore be desirable to embody
" as a schedule in any Act of Parliament, by which effect is given to these recommenda-
" tions, such rules and regidations as seem desirable.

" If indeed, after this, the conditions of the Act are not complied with, it will become
" the duty of the Secretary of State, when he has duly verified the fact, to see that so
" much of the Treasury allowance as would be appropriated to any such defaulting prison,
" be withheld until the omission is corrected."

Objected to.

On Question, that the paragraph proposed stand part of the Report.

Contents :

Duke of Marlborough.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Dudley.
Lord Lyveden.

The division being equal, resolved in the negative.

Not Contents :

Duke of Richmond.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Romney.
Viscount Eversley.
Lord Wodehouse.

The following paragraph Is then proposed by the Duke of Marlborough :

" The exercise of the powers now conferred upon the Secretary of State for the enforce-
ment of rules by his direct authority will be always attended with some difficulty, and
there will probably be less risk of failure if a legislative requirement can be made the
substitute for personal or official responsibility."

Objected to.

On Question, that the paragraph proposed stand part of the Report.

Contents.

Duke of Marlboroujih.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Dudley.

Not Contents.

Duke of Richmond.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Romney.
Viscount Eversley.
Lord Wodehouse.
Lord Lyveden.

The following paragraph is then proposed by the Lord Wodehouse ; viz. : —

" The Committee are of opinion that such rules for gaols as may be thought advisable
" should be embodied as a schedule in an Act of Parliament, and that the Treasury allow-
" ance should be withheld from all gaols where those rules are not in force," (after XIII. 1
of the Draft Report.)

Objected to.

On Question, that the paragraph proposed stand part of the Report :

Contents.

Duke of Richmond.
Duke of Marlborough.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Dudley.
Lord Wodehouse.

Not Contents.

Marquess of Salisbury.
Earl of Romney.
Viscount Eversley.
Lord Lyveden.

The following paragraph of the Draft Report (XV. 1.) is then read, and is as fol-
lows ; viz. : —

" Although this subject is not one which is directly involved in the question of prison
" discipline, the attention of the Committee has so frequently during the course of exami-
" nation been drawn to the great public inconvenience, which is felt from the difficulty in
" identifying a previously convicted prisoner, that they cannot close their report without
" indicating, both the extent of the evil and a suggestion of a remedy. The Committee
" are satisfied that those offenders who are commencing a course of crime should be made

(37.) " aware

XIX PROCEEUINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE

" aware that each repetition of it, duly recorded and proved, will involve a material
" increase of punishment, pain and inconvenience to him.

" Sir W. Crofton states, with great clearness, the prejudicial effect which the difficulty
" of identifying previously convicted prisoners has had in Ireland, and he has indicated
" photography as a simple remedy by means of which it has been in a great measure
" obviated."

It is proposed by the Duke of Richmond to leave out from " him," in line 8 of the para-
graph, to the end of the paragraph.

Objected to.

On Question, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the paragraph :

Contents.
Duke of Marlborough.

Not Contents.

Duke of Richmond.
Earl of Romney,
Lord Wodehouse.
Lord Lyveden.

Marquess of Salisbury.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Dudley.

Amendments are made in the paragraph, and the same is agreed to.

The report is read, with the amendments, and is agreed to. ( Vide the Report.)

Ordered, That the Lord in the Chair do make the said report to the House.

M I N U T E S OF EVIDENCE.

(37. 1.)

[ 2 ]

LIST OF WITNESSES.

Die Martis, 3° Afartii 1863.
John George Perry, Esq. - - 3

Die Jovis, 5" 3Iartn 1863.
John George Perry, Esq. - - 41

Die Luim, 9° Martii 1863.

Edward Smith, Esq., M.r>., ll.b.,

F.K.S. ----- 73

Die Jovis, 12° iMartii 1863. '
Major General Sir Joshua Jebb

K.C.B. - . -

John George Perry, Esq.

107
- 131

Die Martis, 17" 3Iartii 1863.

Major William Fulford, n.A. - 141

William Musson, Esq. - - - 160

Die Martis, 24" Martii 1863.
Herbert Poulton Vonles, Esq. - 177

Die Jovis, 26" Martii 1863.

George Everest, Esq. - - - 211

Captain Charles Maxwell Luck-
raft, K.N. ----- 227

Die Jovis, 16° Aprilis 1863.

William Merry, Esq. - - - 237
Edward Shepherd, Esq. - - 255

Die Martis 21" Aprilis 1863.

Edward Shepherd, Esq. - - 265

Die Jovis, 23° Aprilis 1863.

Sir Walter Crofton, c. b. - - 295

Die Veneris, 24" Aprilis 1863.

William Oakley, Esq. - - - 315

William Golden Lumley, Esq. - 319

James Anthony Gardner, Esq. - 327

Die Martis, 28° Aprilis 1863.

WiUiam Augustus Guy, Esq.,M. b. 347

George Pinson, Esq. _ - - 373

Die Jovis, 30" Aprilis 1863.

William Linton, Esq. - - - 383

Die Sabbati, 2" Mali 1863.

Major C. W. Bannister - - 407

Mr. Charles Augustus Keene - 414

Die Martis, 5" Mail 1863.

Mr. John Dayton - - . 423

Mr. George "Whitehall - - - 431

Mr. Josejih Constance - - - 442

Die Jovis, 7" Mail 1863.

Thomas Harpur Colvill, Esq. - 439

Mr. William Griffiths - - - 450

Mr. George Julyan - . . 457

William Augustus Guy, Esq., M. b. 466

( 3 )

Die Mar lis, 3° Martii 1863.

LORDS PRESENT:

LoKD President.
Duke of Marlborough.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Lord Steward.
Earl of CARNAEVOiir.
Earl of Malmesbury.
Earl of RoMNEY.

Earl Cathcart.
Earl of DuciE.
Earl of Dudley.

Viscount EVEESLEY.
Lord WODEHOUSE.

Lord Lyveden.

THE EARL OF CARNARVON, in the Chair.

Evidence on
Prison Discipline.

JOHN GEORGE PERRY, Esquire, is called in, and examined as follows : j q pg^^u Esq

1. Chairman^] YOU are one of the Inspectors of Prisons, are you not?

I am one < if the Inspectors of Prisons, and a Fellow of the College of Surgeons.

2. Formerly there were five inspectors, were there not i
There were.

3. Since that, the number has been reduced considerably ?
It has been slowly reduced to the present number of two.

4. You mean since Sir John Kincaid's death ?
Yes, that was the last reduction.

5. Will you tell the Committee what the extent of your district is ?

My present district comprises Berkshire, Buckinghamshire, Cornwall, De-
vonshire, Dorsetshire, Essex, Gloucestershire, Hertfordshire, Kent, Middlesex,
Monmouthshire, Oxford, Somerset, Hampshire, Surrey, Sussex, and Wiltshire ;
those comprised my old district ; and then an addition which was made last
year to my district comprises Bedford, Cambridge, Hereford, Huntingdon,
Norfolk, Shropshire, Suffolk, Warwickshire, Worcestershire ; 26 Enghsh
counties ; and besides those, ray district comprises the 12 counties of Wales.

6. That appears not to be an exact division of England by a line drawn
laterally from east to west ?

No ; the division was made partly with reference to communication by
railways.

7. Do the inspectors of prisons adhere rigidly to their districts, or do they
ever exchange their districts ?

My colleague is strictly confined to his own district ; but I hold another
appointment, that of Medical Inspector of Prisons, in respect of which I may
be called upon to go upon medical questions to any part of England or Wales.

8. Is it a desirable arrangement that each inspector should be confined to his
own particular district ?

"^ I think it is, because they become better acquainted with the circumstances
of the locality, and of the particular prisons, by being so confined.

3d March 186:5.

(37. 1.)

Might

4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G. J'enij, Esq. y. Might not there be an advantage in their occasionally seeing the prisons
"~~ of a different district, and bringing to bear upon their system of management

3c - »rc 1 1 3. ppi-i^jj^pg ^ somewhat diffei-ent opinion r

It would l)e quite impossible that the duty could be discharged by two per-
sons if that were the case, because each would have to learn his lesson afresh,
and to learn all the circvunstances of the prisons, which we, having held office
for a great many years, have become gradually acquainted with. If we were
suddenly to change districts, it would be quite impossible that we could do the
same amount of inspection in the same time.

1 (>. Are you of opinion that it was an improvement to have reduced the
lumiber of inspectors, and the number of districts to two ?

Perhaps the number is now too far reduced ; but the work will become
easier after this year.

1 1 . How large a portion of the year does your district occupy in visiting it ?
The mere travelling probably occupies about four months ; but there is a

great deal of work at home arising from references and questions between the
Secretary of State and the Visiting Justices, whicli take up a great deal more
time than tlie visitation of the prisons ; besides which, there is the preparation
of the reports, which requires a great deal of correspondence, to get statistical
information, to get information as to matters which may either have been
overlooked, or may not have been perfectly examined at the 'tune of the ^dsit,
so that there is a great deal more time taken up now, under the altered arrange-
ments, in consequence of the increased number of prisons, and the increased
amount of correspondence. And I ought to mention that the inspectors have
no clerk or other assistance, so that all tiie correspondence and all the reporting
rests upon themselves.

12. Are your reports compiled from the notes which you take at the time of
each inspection, or are they drawn from information which you obtain sub-
sequently ?

Partly the one and partly the other.

13. What are the times of your regular visits ?

1 make a point of not visiting the same prisons at the same time of the year ;
in fact, all my arrangements are directed to ensuring that I shall not be ex-
pected in my visits ; because it would be fruitless, and would be hardly fair to
the prison officers themselves, if 1 were to go at one specitic time to each prison,
because it might be said that they had prepared everything for my visit.

14. Practically, is it the case that when you do come you are unexpected?
Almost invariably.

15. You give no notice ?

I give no notice, except when I go for the purpose of meeting the magistrates,
or making some special inquiry, when of course notice is necessary.

i(). What is the number of your regular visits to every prison, in the course
of the year ?

They vary very much ; some prisons I have visited as many as 10 times in a
year, and others not more than once perhaps in 15 or 18 months ; there is no
time specified in our instructions, and it would be very inconvenient that any
time should be specified, because we should then have to dispose of our time
often fruitlessly, instead of bestowing it where we thought we were most
required.

17. What are the extraordinary visits dependent upon?

Sometimes upon comj)hiints of ])risoners which are rei'erred to the in-
spectors by the ^Secretary of iState, and then of course it is necessary that the
prison authorities should be informeiJ of our intenticm of visiting, and of the
time of our proposed visit, meetings with the magisti'ates at their recjuest, &c.

18. As an ordinary rule, you do not hold communication with the visiting
justices, do you ?

We ought not to do so ; ncpording to our instructions all our communications
ought to be made through the Secretary of State. As it was expressed to me

when

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCII'LINE. 5

when I was appointed, we represent the eyes and ears of the Secretary of State, J- ('. Peny, £t(j.

but not his voice. ^ , >. i~ ^.v- ,

3a March ii:();j.

1 9. Would it not be a great advantage if you were to hold personal or

written communication with the Visiting Justices, upon whom the whole
machinery of prisons rests ?

We are always ready to do so at their request, but we are instructed not to
make our recommendations for alteration directly to them, until they have
received the approval of the Secretary of State.

20. Do you leave any written record of your visit in the prison itself?
No, we do not.

21. And. of course, there is no communication made by you in any shape to
the quarter sessions ?

Tsot directly from ourselves.

22. Would it not be a great advantage that there should be some record of
your opinion of the circumstances of the gaol, and of the manner in which it
is carried on ?

I do not think it would, as it would occupy too much time

23. Marquess of Salishury.'l Do you not make some short report to the
Secretary of State from your notes ?

\\ henever there is anything special to be reported, we do ; we are directed
when there is anything requiring immediate attention to make a special report,
and those special reports are sent down at once to the magistrates.

•24. Chairvian.'] The ordinary reports, I think, are not laid before the quarter
sessions, or before any number of magistrates ?

The ordinar)' reports are always sent to the visiting magistrates.

25. By the Secretary of State r

Nominally by the Secretary of State, but really by the Inspector.

2fi. Duke of Marluoroiif/h.] Under what Act do you exercise your functions?
Under the Act of the 5 & 6 WiU. 4, c. 38.

27. Chairman.'] Will you stale what you conceive to be your powers acting
under that statute, and also under the instructions which you receive from the
Secretary of State ?

To examine all the books and all the salaried officers of the prison, to hear
complaints from prisoners, to visit every part of the prison, and to see as far
as we can that the rules and regulations of the Secretary of State and the enact-
ments of the law are carried out, and to report any deviation from them to the
Secretary of State.

28. It is your duty idso. is it not, to certify cells ?

Yes, that is another part of our duty, to certify the cells intended for separate
contjnement under the Act of the second and third of the present Queen,
chapter 5(5.

29. Can you put in a copy of the instructions of the Secretary of State ?

I have never received direct instruct inns, excepting a paper which was pub-
lished some years after 1 w^as appointed, but I have no doubt that I can put
that in.

30. Viscount Eversley.'] Are any rules of the government of prisons sanctioned
by the Home Office?

There are, but the law requires that they should be iirst proposed by the
magistrates in quarter sessions, and that they should be sent up by the clerk of
the peace, to be certified for the prison by the Secretary of State. In the year
1842 the Secretary of State circulated a copy of regulations for prisons; not
intending that they should be binding upon prisons, for he had no power to
impose them upon the justices, but as a suggestion to the justices upon which
they might form rules of their own, because some of the rules are applicable to
one kind of prison and others to another ; for instance, some prisons are for
debtors only, others for women only, others are mere gaols ; others are also
houses of correction, others are houses of correction only ; so that the rules of
the Secretary of State are not exactly adapted to any one prison, but they

(37. 1.) A 3 were

6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

./. G. Perry, Esq. were sent down as a guide to the justices in quarter sessions, and to the visiting
3d March 1863. justices ni drawins; up their own regulations, and they were very generally
adopted in all prisons.

31. Marquess of Salisbury.'] At what date was that done?
Somewhere about the year 1842, I think.

32. Earl Cathcart.'] You mention in your report, do you not, that there are
two prisons in your district which have no rules at all ?

There must be more than two ; there are several, but the magistrates gene-
rally act upon the regulations that I have just alluded to, considering that they
are really binding upon them ; they do not appear to have understood that
those regulations when adopted must be sent up for contirmation.

3,'^. Is it a compliance with the Act of Parliament that there should be
prisons without any rules at all ?

Practically they are under rules, because they act upon those rules ; but the
Secretary of State has no power to impose rules, but merely to consent to or
dissent from the rules which are sent up by the magistrates.

34. Then, in those prisons which have not regular formal rules, are the rules
which are sent down by the Secretary of State published, and made known to
the prisoners ?

They are generally very small prisons, in which I do not suppose that the
rules are printed for that purpose, but the prisoners are made aware of the rules
under v. hich they are governed.

3,5. But I presume you do not approve of prisons being without regularly
authorised rules ?
Certainly not.

36. Earl of Malmeshurj/.] What are the exact liuiits of the Secretary of
State's power with respect to rules ?

lie has the power of certifying them as the judges had under the old Acts of
Parliament. He has had that power ever since the year 1835 ; and when the
rules are sent up, as tiiey are recpiired to be, once a year, from each prison, he
has also the power of making alterations in them ; but that power has been very
seldom exercised, because the magistrates generally prefer making the. rules
themselves, and they very often object to the alterations that are made, which
leads to very long correspondence. It seems to me that it would be a very
great advantage if there were certain definite codes of rules for all prisons of
certain characters, as for instance for all gaols, all housrs of correction, debtors'
gaols, and so on ; that there should be four or five definite codes, and not, as is
the case at present, infinite varieties. In fact, the variations of the rules of
prisons are so great that it is hardly possil^le for the inspector at the time he is
going round a prison to have in his mind the rules of that particular prison,
because so many rules have been introduced, and so many have been struck
out and modified (sometimes only in a few words), that there is no uniform
code, except in those prisons where the Secretary of State's regulations iiave
been accepted entirely.

37. But has the Secretary of State the power of vetoing a set of rules r
He has.

38. Do you not find that he often ol)jects to alterations made by the magis-
trates with regard to his own regulations '!

The alterations made by the magistrates are sometimes inconsistent with the
regulations which may be assumed to be approved of by the Secretary of State,
but it has seldom been the custom to dispute them ; they have been generally
adopted, unless they are thought to be positively objectionable.

39. Earl of Rovinei/.'] Are you aware that about 20 years ago the Secretary
of State sent out a body of rules, and submitted them to all the counties for
thir consideration ?

That is the code to which 1 allude.

40. What year was that ?

I think it was in 1842 ; I came into office in 1843, and I think it was in the
year before that.

41. Earl

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 7

41. Earl Cathcart.'\ The result of what you have stated is, that the Secretary J. G^ Perry, Esq.
of State does not exercise sufficient control over the prisons?

Yes ; that is my opinion. 3 J March ^ 863.

42. Chairman.'] You stated, did you not, that in some prisons there were no
rules at all r

They are generally very small prisons, more deserving the name of lock-up
houses than of prisons, in which there are no rules that have been actually
certified by the Secretary of State.

43. Can you specify in what i)arts of your district those prisons are to which
you refer ?

Such prisons as Bradninch, Helston, Romney, Rye, Winchelsea, and other
small gaols of that kind.

44. Would you not feel it your duty in such a case where no rules existed
to report the fact to the Secretary of State ?

I have continually spoken of it in my reports to the gaolers or the visiting
justices, when thei'e are any ; but there are not always visiting justices to those
small prisons.

45. Marquess of Salisbury.] Many of the borough gaols have no justices at
aU?

Soine have none at all ; and some have not even any resident officers.

46. Lord President.] Is it not your habit to report to the Home Office any
case in which there seems to be illegality connected with the discipUne of a
prison?

Yes.

47. It is illegal not to have rules certified by the Secretary of State, is it
not r

Yes ; and I do report it ; but a report of illegal acts done in a gaol may not,
even with the best intentions on the part of the Secretary of State, produce
the reform that is required. I may mention as an illustration a county gaol
in which, during the first 14 years of my tenure of office, the law was habitually
violated every day by two prisoners being put, not only into one cell, but into
one bed. This was continually reported not only in my published reports, but
in special reports, and it had been similarly reported by my predecessor ; and
yet, as I say, 14 years of my time passed without my being able to effect any
change, although the Secretary of State sent down the reports, and sometimes
the magistrates went so far as to draw up plans for a new prison, and on one
occasion to get them certified ; but they were not acted upon during that long
period of time.

4S. You are referring to the case of Falmouth, which is mentioned in your
Report for 1861 ?

Not in my answer to the last question.

4q. The Home Secretary had no further power except calling the attention
of the magistrates to such illegal procedure ?
Practically he has no power to do more.

50. Karl Cathcart.] In your Report for the year 1802, with regard to the
large prison of Devonport, to which "were committed the last year 319 males
and 126 females, total 445," you state, " It is my duty again to call attention
to the fact that no code of rules has ever been forwarded to the Secretary of
State for his certificate as fit to be enforced in this prison." This would appear
to apply to a large prison?

That is a large prison.

51. It is clear that the law has not been carried out in that case ?
It has not.

j-f'X. W hat is the duty of the Inspector under such circumstances as that r
To report it, as I have reported it.

(37.1.) A 4 53- And

8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

,/. (;. Perry, Esq. .53. And then no notice is taken of your report?
Often none. »

ad March 1863.

54. Then, are the Committee to infer that, so far as inspection goes, the
inspection leads to no practical result r

It has generally led to \evy beneficial i-esults ; but in many instances, I am
sorry to say, that the remonstrances of the Secretary of State have not produced
any effect.

55. And here is a large prison carried on apparently without any published
rules at all, and the report of the inspecting officer on the unsatisfactory con-
dition of the prison has not been attended to in such a case : is it not your duty
to urge the matter more forcibly in your report to the Secretary of State, and
would it not be your duty to write a special letter calling the matter to his
attention more prominently ?

In the case of Devonport the rules of the Secretary of State are acted upon,
that is to say, of that code which was sent down, but they have never been
specially certified for that prison.

56. They are not legal rules till they are certified, are they r
They are not.

57. It is a mere matter of form ?

Just so. A great many of them are legal rules, because they are e.\:tracted
from Acts of Parliament.

58. But the real rules are, in fact, the Acts of Parliament; the Act of the
4th of George the Fourth is the foundation of a great many rules, is it not :

Yes ; a great many of them.

5y. Dul^e of MciTlborough .'] In such a case as has just been mentioned to
you by the noble Lord, where the prison authorities neglect to send up the rules,
does not the Act empower the Secretary of State to furnish rules that are
to be acted upon ?

Yes.

60. Has that been done in this case of Devonport ?
No ; it has not.

6 I . I see that the sixth section of 5 & 6 Will. 4, c. 38, states : " That in
case of any clerk of the peace, clerk of gaol sessions, or chief magistrate of
any citv, town, borough, port, or liberty, neglecting or omitting to transmit to
one of his Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State, copies of the rules or regu-
lations in force for tlie government of any prison, which he is required by this
Act to transmit, it shall be lawful for one of his Majesty's Principal Secretaries
of State, after the 1st day of December in every year, to certify what rules
and regulations he deems necessary for the government of such prison ;" is
there any difficulty in doing that r

I believe that has never been done in any case.

62. liut there is clearly, by that Act, a power in the Secretai'v of State to
send down rules for the guidance of the prison i

There is.

63. Is it obligatory, then, upon the prison authorities to act upon such rules
after they have received them ?

It is.

64. Marquess of Salisbnn/.] They have the power to alter them afterwards,
have they not r

They have the power to suggest alterations, just as they would have done if
they had had a permanent code before.

65. Thev are not final ?

No ; in lio case are they final, because magistrates in quarter sesvsions may
propose alterations in them.

'G6. In

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 9

66. In the same manner as if they had gone in a more formal way, and had J. G. Perry, Bsqt
had new rules imposed upon them by the Secretary of State ? , „ — : -^

67. Duke of Afarlborough-I Any alterations must receive the subsequent
sanction of the Secretary of State, must they not ?

Yes.

68. Earl of Malmeshury.'] In the case suggested by the noble Duke, if the
Secretary of State sends down rules, in default of rules being sent up by the
justices, what is the penalty if those rules are not followed ?

There are no penalties connected with that at all. The Act of Parliament
prescribes no penalties.

6g. Then, in point of fact, the power of the Secretary of State is null ?

It is null. All that the Secretary of State could do would be to institute a
prosecution for a misdemeanor for disobeying the Act of Parliament ; but that
has never been done, nor is it likely to be done. The Secretary of State should,
in my opinion, have the direct power to impose rules.

70. Earl Cathcart.] Are you aware that Plymouth prison, which is also a
large prison, has no rules at all ?

It is in exactly the same position as Devonport in that respect. They act
upon those regulations.

7 1 . But they are not legal ?

They are not certified for the prison.

72. Chairman.'] Have you made representations to the Secretary of State, both
with regard to Devonport and Plymouth, on this subject previous to that report ?

I cannot remember now.

73. Is this the first time that you have called attention to it ?

I am unable to answer that question in a moment without referring back
to old reports.

74. Duke of Marlborough.'] With reference to the question, how far the
statute is obligatory on the prison authorities to act vipon the rules furnished
by the Secretary of State, do you not consider that the latter portion of this
section whicli has been read is obligatory upon them in that sense, " and the
rules and regulations so certified by such Secretary of State shall thenceforth
be binding upon sheriffs and all other persons, and shall be the only rules in
force for the government of such prison'"?

Undoubtedly the Secretary of State has the legal right to impose rules, but
I say that practically, if the rules are not obeyed, there is no penalty for not
obeying them.

75. Is not the infraction of an Act of Parliament punishable at common law
as a misdemeanor ?

It is so, as I have just mentioned, but that process has never been adopted,
even in much stronger cases than that to wliich your Grace alludes.

76. With reference to the reports which I understand you to say are made,
have the terms of this Act been strictly obeyed as regards the reports which
are required to be furnished. I see by the Act that the inspector is required
to furnish a separate and distinct report in writing of the state of every gaol,
bridewell, house of correction, penitentiary, prison, or other place of con-
finement visited by him, and that he shall transmit the same to one of His
Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State on the first day of February in each
year. Has that been practically observed ?

Not before the first day uf February in all cases ; they are sent to the press
before they are presented to the Secretary of State, and the printing occupies
some little time, and they are not presented until later in the Session.

77. Is it the case that a separate and distinct report of the state of every
gaol is made annually to the Secretary of State r

Of every gaol visited within the year.

78. Then you consider that the Act of ParUament merely refers to gaols
that are visited, and not to every gaol in existence within your district r

(37.1.) B No,

10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G. Perry, Esq. No, I think it does not refer to that ; the Act says that the prisons shall be
visited from time to time.

Sd March 1863.

79. Earl Cathcart.'] Is it not the custom to read the prison rules to prisoners
on admission ?

Yes.

80. If there are no rules, how can those rules be read ?

The rules relative to prisoners are read in Devonport Prison, and in Plymouth
Prison, from the regulations of the Secretary of State, which they assume to be
their rules.

8 1 . Viscount Everslet/J] And are those rules legally binding ?
Only those which are supported by Acts of Parliament.

82. Only those rules in fact which are parts of Acts of Parliament ?

Just so ; every prison has those rules, and the officers must act under them.

83. As I understand you, every prison has its rules, which the visiting
magistrates have drawn up, and which have been approved of by the Secretary
of State ; but in the case of the Devonport Prison, they appear to have no rules,
but til at they govern themselves by a general code of rules, which have been
sent down by the Secretary of State ?

Many prisons have not rules of their own, but all are subject to Acts of
Parliament.

84. But those rules are only binding when they form parts of Acts of
Parliament ?

Just so.

85. Earl of RomncT/.'] There is a complete set of regulations in the 4th Geo. 4,
cap. 64, is there not ?

Yes, and all those are binding, whether any rules are certified or not.

86. But are there any rules with regard to the classification of prisoners, and
as to many of the smaller details ?

Yes.

^7. Lord Steward.'] With reference to an answer which you gave sometime
ago, you stated that there would be some inconvenience in requiring the
inspectors to visit their different districts alternately. Are you aware that that
has been the practice in Ireland ; that the country is divided into two districts,
visited alternately by two inspectors, and that that practice has been found to
work very well ?

The districts in England, including Scotland, are so much more extensive
than those in Ireland, that the difficulty would be greater.

88. That difficulty might be met, by increasing the number of inspectors,
might it not ?

Yes, of course.

89. If there were an additional number of inspectors, would you deem it
objectionable to require them to visit the districts alternately ?

1 think the present system is better, and that the inspectors become better
acquainted with the details of the prisons.

90. Do not you think that it would give the inspectors an opportunity of
comparing the practices, and mode of treatment, and the different details in
different prisons, and of selecting what was thought to be best in each ?

The inspectors do meet now and compare notes upon the difl'erent points
that may arise.

91. How often on an average do you visit each prison in your district in the
ordinary waj^ ?

Once in aljout a year or 15 months. There are some prisons which are
sometimes empty, or sometimes they have only one or two prisoners in
them.

92. Generally speaking, those small prisons require more frequent visitation
than large ones, do they not ?

Yes. I may mention that the average time of visit is within a year. Look-
ing

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. U

ing at the present time, I have visited every prison within the last year, except J. G. Perry, Esq.
about half a dozen, which 1 should have seen in the month of February, had —

it not been for my expectation of being called before this Committee. ^ ^^^ ^ ' ^'

93. What is the total number of prisons in your district ?
About 96.

94. Earl Cathcart.'\ You only report upon 40 prisons, what is the reason of
that ?

When the Report of 1862 was pubUshed, I had only a part of the district that
I have now.

95. If you have 90 prisons in your district, why is it tliat in your Report for
1862, you only report upon 40?

Because the greater part of the additional number were not in my district
when that Report was published.

96. How many prisons had you in your district at the time when this Raport
was published ?

About half that number.

97. Will you be kind enough to state what occurs in case of death-vacancies,
or in case of the sickness of inspectors ; there is a vacancy at this moment in
the northern district, how is the work done in that district ?

There is no vacancy at this moment.

98. Has not the inspector of the northern district lately died?
Sir John Kincaid died after he had resigned his office.

99. In case of sickness, what would be done ?

Happily, no such instance has arisen, but we should attend for each other in
any special or urgent business.

100. Has any report been pubhshed for the northern district for 1862 ?

A very short one indeed, for Sir John Kincaid was almost dying when he
resigned.

101 . And there is no satisfactory report concerning the northern prisons for
1862?

No.

102. Chair ma?/.'] Was there any report for 1861 for the northern district?

I do not recollect exactly ; but I think Sir John Kincaid's illness, even then,
prevented his publishing the northern report ; he merely complied with the
forms. I'or two years there was no report, I think, from Scotland.

103. Earl Cathcart.'] With regard to sending a report to the quarter sessions,
do not you think it would be exceedingly satisfactory and useful, if the Crown
inspector sent in a report to the next quarter sessions immediately after his
last inspection ; and that he should send to the chairman of the visiting jus-
tices, appended to his report, a copy of the report which he had forwarded to
the Secretary of State r

Under the present instructions it would not be possible to do so.

104. Assuming that the instructions were altered, do not you think it would
have a salutary effect if, in the quarter sessions, a copy of the report of the
Crown inspector were read r

I think it would be better sent by the Secretary of State.

105. Do not you think it desirable that the Secretary of State, after the
Crown Inspector has made his report, should, as soon as possible, send down a
copy of that report which he has received from the Crown Inspector?

That is the course adopted now, when there is any special matter to be reported.

106. Are you aware that this is now done in the case of the Crown Inspector
of Police ?

I am not aware that that is the practice.

107. Chairman.'] You stated, did you not, that there were at present 96
prisons within your district?

About 96, but that includes many very small ones.

(37. 1.) B 2 108. Can

reign ?

12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G- Perry, Esq. loS. Can you specify them, so far as the number is concerned, in different

classes — Borough prisons, County prisons, Liberty prisons, if there are such,

gd March 1863. and so on?

Fifty-four County prisons, forty Borough prisons, and two Liberty prisons.

1 09. Has any amalgamation of the borough and county gaols taken place
within your district lately ?

There has scarcely been an instance of it.

1 1 0. There is power given to amalgamate, is there not, under an Act of this

Yes, under the Act for estabhshing district prisons.

in. Have you known of no instance in which that amalgamation has taken
place ?

There are many instances, of course, iii which the Boroughs have sent their
prisoners to the county gaol by contract ; but I do not recollect any instance
in which a county gaol has been amalgamated with a borough gaol.

112. In your opinion would it be desirable that some of the smaller gaols
should be amalgamated with the county gaols r

Yes, it would, and I have very often recommended it. There are still several
gaols which it is highly improper should continue, such for instance as one of those
which I have mentioned just now, that of Bradninch, where they have sometimes
only a single prisoner for months together, and where there is no resident
officer in the gaol at all ; the man who looks after the prisoners living at a
distance from the prison. And the same is the case in some other gaols. They
should send all their prisoners to the county gaols.

1 13. Would it not be an advantage in an economical, as well as an effective
point of view, if that amalgamation were carried out ?

It would, and I have often recommended it upon those grounds.

114. Duke oi 3I(irlborough.] Would you feel yourself at liberty to state to
the Committee any other case in your district where the evils of the existing
borough gaol are as glaring as in the case of Falmouth ?

I do not think that I could mention any instance equal to that, because
Falmouth is a prison that receives sometimes a very large number of
prisoners, and I have occasionally known 24 male prisoners in Falmouth
gaol, when there have been only four beds in the gaol — they lie two or
three in a bed, and the rest on the ground by the side of the bed. I have
reported that specially to the Secretary of State, and on one occasion, upon my
recommendation, a number of prisoners were pardoned, in order to get them
out of the gaol.

115. Earl CfitJicart.] Could you not mention a gaol at Poole, where the
dinner comes in from a neighbouring inn ?

Yes ; but the number of prisoners there is so small, that the accommodation
is sufficient.

116. The dinner is provided at 5 s. 6 d. per head per week from the inn, is
it not ?

Yes.

117. You have one prison where there are bedsteads which are not used, and
where the prisoners sle(;p on the floor, where is that ?

That is at St. Alban's.

118. Can nothing be done at St. Alban's to improve that state of things?
I have repeatedly represented it, and the answer is, that they have it in

contemplation to build another prison, or to unite the two prisons of Hertford
and St. Alban's, and upon that score it has been postponed/rom year to year.

119. Has the Secretary of State no power in such a case as that where there
are bedsteads, and they are not used, but the men and women sleep upon the
floor ?

The reason assigned for their not using the bedsteads upon one occasion was,
that they were afraid of the prisoners breaking tliein up, and making use of them
as weapons against their officers, and for the puri)ose of effecting their escape.

120. Is

SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 13

120. Is it a state of affairs which ought to exist in the nineteenth century, in J. G. Perry, Esq.
England, that the authorities are not able to provide the prisoners with bed- Mairoh'186':!.

steads, because they are afraid of their using them as weapons of offence against .

their officers ? *

Certainly not.

121. Lord [Vodcfionse.~\ Referiing to your report upon Falmouth gaol, I see
that you recommend that the prisoners should be sent to the county prison of
Bodmin where you say there is sufficient accommodation for them ; and in the
report which immediately precedes that, you observe that Bodmin is one of the
best conducted establishments of the kind in the kingdom ; do you not think
that the remedy for the evils of many of those small prisons in boroughs would
be to give power to the Secretary of State, where there is su Hi cient accommoda-
tion in the county prison, to require that the prisoners should be sent to the
county prison ?

Certainly ; I have very often recommended that, and in the case of Falmouth
I have done so over and over again. The Town Council of Falmouth do now send
a great many of their prisoners to Bodmin ; but a difficulty has arisen f)n account
of there being a great arrear of payment by the borough authorities to the
county magistrates, and it was in contemplation to stop the admission of the
borough prisoners in consequence ; but I believe that the magistrates have
determined not to do so, partly, I think, upon my recommendation, and
the3^ are still receiving them.

122. That might easily be met, might it not, by giving the county some
summary power of recovering the arrears ?

I suppose it might be met by an action at law.

123. Duke of Marlhorongh.'] It might be treated as a common debt, might
it not ?

I presume so.

1 2A. Earl Cathcart.] Is not one of the worst prisons in England close to
where we are now sitting, namely, the House of Correction forthe county of
Middlesex, at Coldbath-fields ?

It is a very bad prison, and, considering its size, it may be said to be the
worst in Great Britain, because the prisoners are very numerous and in close
association, although under supervision.

1 25. Chairman.'] The majority of the prisons within your district are assumed
to be upon the separate system, are they not ?

Not numerically, the majority ; but the majority of the larger prisons are upon
the separate system ; all the prisons that have been rebuilt or materially
altered within the last 18 or 20 years are upon the separate system.

126. Would you state to the Committee the proper construction of the cells
in order to give effect to the separate system as intimated in the Act of Par-
liament ?

They are required to be sufficiently ventilated, warmed, and lighted, and pro-
vided with all the appliances necessary for the system ; but the main points are
that they should be sufficiently large, well ventilated, lighted, and warmed.

127. Pentonville, I think, has been taken, has it not, as the general
standard ?

Generally so, not invariably. In some prisons the cells have been made
somewhat smaller than those at Pentonville.

128. Earl of Romney.'] What are the cubical contents that are required for a
man's cell?

That would depend very much upon the efficiency of the ventilation. A cell
may be as well ventilated, and as habitable, wliich contains 800 cubic feet, as
another case which contains 1,000 cubic feet.

1 29. But let us take an ordinary cell, without any special ventilation, what
would be the cubical contents ?

Those cells would not be fit for the continual confinement of prisoners. I

l^/*- '•) B 3 understand

14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J.G. Perry, Esq. understand your Lordship's question to apply to cells certified for separate con-
finement.

3(1 aiarch 1863.

130. There is a certain quantity, I believe, certified to be properly qualified
for males, and a certain quantity for females, with ordinary ventilation r

Not with ordinary ventilation ; I am not aware of that ; I have never
certified any cells that were not artificially warmed and lighted.

131. Chairman.'] What is the recognised standard of Pentonville ; how many
cubic feet of air is a prisoner allowed there ?

It is easily calculated ; it is 13 feet 6 inches long, by 7 feet wide and 9 feet
high. I think that those are the dimensions of the separate cells at Penton-
ville.

132. Marquess of Sali.sbunj.] Is that cubic measiu*e ?

The cubical contents may be calculated from those data ; they are, pro-
bably, given in the Pentonville Reports.

133. Cliairman.'] What is the minimum number of cubic feet of air in any
cell which )'ou would be disposed to certify ?

I liave certified, under some circumstances, cells which contained rather less
than 800 cubic feet.

1 34. What do you look upon as the maximum ?

There would be no objection to any size, except that they take up more
room.

13.5. What is the largest cell within your district ?

The largest certified cells are, I think, in Shrewsbury Gaol ; they consist of
old cells thrown two into one, by which a very much larger extent is obtained
than would have been the case had the prison been built afresh. I do not
remember exactly the measurement ; my old reports would state that.

136. Is there ventilation in every cell ?
Yes.

137. By what means is the ventilation generally secured; is it by the
window or through the door ?

By flues.

138. There are cells, are there not, where the ventilation is effected by the
window ?

Yes.

1 39. And the prisoner himself has the power of regulating that ventilation ?
Yes, but those are not certified for separate confinement, so far as my know-
ledge extends.

140. Is not that the case in Winchester?

In Winchester Gaol the cells are ventilated by flues, and they have also the
means of opening the window, but I should say that the power of opening the
window is directly subversive of the principle upon which they are ventilated ;
for if air be admitted from the outside, the same quantity of air must be
arrested in its passage through the flues, as only a certain amount can come
into tlie cell within a given time ; just so much as has been extracted within that
time. It you admit air from the outside you stop exactly the same amount of
air from coming in through the flues, and though in the summer time that
would make no difference, yet in the winter it would make a material difference,
because, when the thermometer is below the freezing point, it would be very
difficult to keep up the temperature of the cell if you ventilated it by letting in
air from the outside.

141. Would you object to the prisoners themselves having the power of
opening and closing the windows ?

I believe that that is generally injurious to the ventilation.

142. Has it any other objections ?

Yes ; one objection may be stated, namely, that it would admit of voices
being heard on the outside.

143. Would

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 15

143. Would it not probably facilitate communication between the prisoners? J- G Peny, Esq
Yes, with prisoners from the outside, but not from cell to cell. , ^ ~T~ „„

] 44. And would not that be a very great disadvantage in a disciplinary point

of view ?

It would. For instance, if a cell overlooked the airing yard, and there were
a power of opening any aperture between the cell and the outside, the prisoner's
voice might be heard in the airing yard.

145. In all those gaols where the cells have been certified for use, and con-
sequently may be assumed to be on the new and improved principle, is there
any provision made for artificially warming them ?

Certified cells, so far as my own experience goes, have always been
warmed and ventilated. There has always been an apparatus for warming and
ventilating them before the certificate has been given.

1 46. What has been the general temperature of the cells ?

It is difficult for me to speak, from occasional visits, as to what has been the
general temperature. In some prisons they keep a record of the thermometer
in two or three cells ; and if my instructions are obeyed, they would never raise
the temperature of the cell above 60 degrees, or, perhaps, scarcely so high as
that ; but I dare say that, by mismanagement of the flues, they may occasion-
ally be warmer than that, or occasionally not so warm.

147. ]\Iarquess of Salis/nay.] What is the lowest temperature?

In the night there would be no objection to its going down much below 50° ;
but if a man is to sit still in a cell he will be cold if the temperature is 50° in
the day-time.

148. Earl Cafhcart.] When prisons are ventilated by means of flues, and
most prisons are ventilated by means of flues, the ventilation is dependent, is it
not, upon a fire being lighted somewhat either above or below ?

It is so.

149. Has it not so happened in your own experience, and do not you mention
in your report that sometimes they forget to hght this fire, and consequently
the ventilation is defective ?

Yes.

150. Have not you known a prison become almost unbearable from the want
of ventilation, because they have not lighted the fire ?

Yes, I have known that happen, but not very often.

151. You do not think that that occurs frequently ?

No ; in most prisons they have a resident engineer, and it is regularly done ;
but it does occur sometimes ; I have spoken strongly about it when I have
found it to take place.

152. Would it not in that case be safer to trust to the external air than to
have to trust to the air flues ?

For the reason I mentioned just now, the air from the outside would not
answer the purpose in the winter season.

153. It sometimes happens that the ventilating apparatus is out of order, and
consequently the whole ventilation of the gaol is most ineffective, is it not ?

It can scarcely be said to be entirely out of order ; but the ventilation is
languid from the want of a current in the extracting shaft.

1 54. Do you know from experience any instance of the fire for the extract-
ing flue in the ventilating apparatus not having been lighted at all, and conse-
quently that the flues have not acted ?

But even then if there is a fire below there is a certain amount of ventilation.

155. But supposing that in the summer time when there is no fire below, they
should neglect in the exhausting shaft to light the fire, the whole ventilation of
the prison must be entirely defective ?

It would not be entirely stopped, but would be rendered much more
languid.

1 56. And consequently to a great extent unwholesome ?

Yes ; but there would always be a certain amount of ventilation even with-
(37. 1.) B 4 out

16 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G. Perry, Esq. out additional warmth in tlie extracting shaft, because upon the principle of
3d March 1863. ^^^^ reversed syphon, the long chimney will always have' a current up it, as
, " the long leg of the syphon.

157. For women and children the ordinary cells are too small, and the air is
very offensive, is it not, in a cell where a woman and child are confined
together ?

That is not altogether from the want of air, but it is from the child not
being so cleanly as it ought to be.

1 58. In such cases the cells ought to be rather larger, ought they not ?

I think the size that I have mentioned is sufficiently lar2,e for a woman and
child.

1*59. I believe also that iu almost all the separate cells there are water-
closets, are there not ?
There are generally.

160. Have you not known sometimes very serious objections arise both with
regard to cleanliness and with regard to the health of the pi'isoners themselves
from the use of those waterclosets ?

In the case of frost breaking the pipes I have known that ; and in one
instance many years ago, when the mode of ventilation was much less under-
stood than it is now, a fever broke out in a prison in consequence of those
waterclosets, but then it arose, not from having waterclosets in the cells,
but from conducting the soil from the watercloset into a cesspool, which
was made air-tight under the idea of rendering it less offensive, so that the
gases could not escape from tlie cesspool at all, except through the cells, and
they came up again. In that case the mischief was remedied as soon as the
cesspool was set right.

161. Earl of Z)w//e7/.] They are not waterclosets in the common acceptation
of the term, are they ?

Yes, they are.

162. "N^'ith a closing pipe '.'

Yes, with a closing pipe, or with a water valve at least.

163. In some of the ordinary waterclosets will the valve close again?

No ; 1 think they are constructed in general in a curve, so that there may
be always some water at the bottom of the curved portion, making what is
technically called the water valve.

1 64. Chairman.'] Are you not aware that in very many gaols there is a very
strong effluvium in some of the cells, in consequence of the waterclosets r

I have never perceived it except now and then, when the extraction aper-
tures were closed by the collection of flue behind them. In Hereford Gaol
I noticed that very badly, and I had the perforated plates taken out, and a
thick mass of flue Avas found behind each composed of portions of cotton or
wool, or anything that hap])ened to have been manipulated within the cell,
and formed a complete crust behind the perforated plates ; but since that time
I have constantly spoken about having them taking down and examined. I
remember that Reading was one of the instances in which that occurred. I
have not observed the same thing to have occurred again.

165. Wherever that is the case, it would go a long way, would it not, to
explain the paleness and even loss of weight and general iU health on the part
of tlie prisoners .'

If the ventilation were bad, certainly.

ifio. That would be the case, would it not, if there was an effluvium r
In many instances the effluvium is from the bodies of the prisoners them-
selves. It is known to medical men, that different persons differ very much
indeed in the odour of tlieir perspirations.

167. I think you misunderstood my question. I say that wherever this
effluvium exists from these waterclosets. would it not go a long way to ex])lain
the ill health of the prisoners?

It would.

168. Do

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 17

i6S. Do you look upon the existence of these water-closets in the cells as J. G- Perri/, fijjt
absolutely essential to the separate system ? March 1863.

The reason that tliey have been adopted was to prevent the necessity of ^ " '

taking the prisoners continually out of their cells. People tired of confinement
in their cells would be constantly affecting to require removal for the sake of
going to the water-closet ; and in order to prevent that continual necessity, and
the time of the officers being occupied, the water-closets were put into all the
cells.

1 69. That has been abandoned, I think, in one or two cases ?
I only know of one instance, and that is Gloucester.

1 70. Was not the system abandoned in Derby ?
I do not know the Derby prison.

171. Duke oi Marlborough.] ^Vllat have they substituted in Gloucester?
The prisoners are taken out to a general water-closet.

172. Earl oi Dudley.'] You were saying that the ordinary ventilation of the
cell would be interfered with by an open window from above. Is not the cell
all the healthier for that cold air being let in during a certain number of hours
per day ?

During the summer it is very desirable, but in the winter, when the ther-
mometer is low, it would be impossible to keep the temperature of the cell up
to a habitable point if the air were admitted from the outside directly.

173. That would bring down the temperature, but as soon as that window
was closed again the air that is passing in from below would very soon bring
the cell up to its temperature ?

It would ; but if the prisoner remained in the cell all day, as they do with
the exception of an hour or two for exercise, he would be very much chilled if
the opening of the window were maintained long in winter time.

174. Is there not an advantage, even in winter, in having perfectly pure and
fresh air let into the cell for a short time, because it is vitiated air which you
let in by the mode of ventilation which you use ?

A great deal of care is taken to prevent the air being vitiated ; it is always
brought down from an elevation by a pipe which is carefully kept clean, and
the air goes into chambers where it is warmed .

175. It passes over heated plates to begin with, does it not?

No ; it passes over hot-water pipes, not pipes heated by hot air, which might
be raised too high in temperature, but by hot water, and they never become so
warm as to vitiate the air.

176. But you do not call that perfectly pure air, when it has been passed
over anything and warmed, and is then brought into the cell?

Chemically it is quite pure.

177. Lord JVodehouse.] Do you think that there is any great evil to be appre-
hended from there being no water-closets in the cells, and their being simply
provided with a pail ?

That would be very objectionable ; it is very offensive, indeed.

178. Earl of Dudley.] You must have the jailor there constantly to remove it ?
"\'es. In the morning those i)ails are carried out and emptied, and then it

does not often happen that they are used afterwards through the day ; but
during the time that they remain unemptied, I should conceive that there must
be very much more danger of the air being foul than from water-closets.

i7q. Earl Cathcarl.] Are you aware that they make a sort of apparatus with
a cover, that tits close, and with a water valve in the cover ?
Yes.

iSo. In your district are there not a great many prisons and a gi'eat many
cells where there are no water-closets at all, but merely these pans are used ?
Yes ; there are in the old fashioned cells-

(37.1.) C 181. Lord

18 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G. Perry, Esq. i8i. Lord TVodelwuse.'] And are not some of those cells certified ?

„ No ; not any in my district, I think.

3d March 1863. ^ J J >

182. With regard to the warming of the cells, have you had any cells certified

in your district which are warmed by means of gas ?
No; not any.

183. Chairman.] Are the majority of the cells which are certified lighted
with gas ?

The majority are, but not all.

1 84. Is there any uniform rule with regard to the duration of the time for
which the gas should be turned on ?

In the best regulated prisons it is turned on at dusk, and put out at about
nine o'clock, I think ; but in some prisons there is no light at all, ft-om
the time that the prisoners are 'locked up till they get up in the morning,
and I have constantly complained of the prisoners being shut up for 16 hours
in winter without any light, as leading to slothful habits and even worse
consequences.

185. Do not you conceive that to be a very grave evil indeed ?
Very much so indeed, and I have always remonstrated against it.

186. What is the duration of sleep which is supposed to be allowed in those
prisons where the prisoners are shut up for 16 hours in the dark ?

There is no control over them in that respect ; they may sleep for the
16 hours.

187. Are the beds allowed to be taken down at dusk ?

I think they are at six o'clock ; at any rate they are taken down after supper.

188. So that it is optional to a prisoner to go and undress, and go to bed at
six o'clock ; and he would not be disturbed until six or eight the following
morning ?

Yes, in many instances that is so.

189. Earl Cathcart.] Do not you mention in your report, that in one
instance they may go to bed at four o'clock ?

Yes.

1 90. And that they may lie in bed until seven the next morning ?
Y'es.

191. Earl of Dudley.'] They would have no light ?

No.

] 92. Earl of Romne}!.] Do you think that the prisoners like that ?
I do not think they do ; they would rather be employed in any way.

193. In fact, it is a punishment to them ?

Yes ; they cannot sleep all that time ; and I have known prisoners complain

of it.

1 94. Chainnan.] If instruction is to be imparted to the prisoners at all, by
means of schoolmasters, is not the evening one of the best times at which that
may be imparted r

Certainly it is.

IQ5. Duke of Marlborough.] Does this take place in associated prisons?
Sometimes.

1 96. Is that regvdation with regard to going to bed so early in force in any
case where they sleep in one room ?

There are very few prisons now in which they sleep in one room. With the
exception of Coldbath Fields Prison and that of St. Albans, I can scarcely
name any, I do not remember one county prison in which they sleep in one
room, except when the cells are over filled.

1 97. Earl of Dudlry.] In the case of Coldbath Fields, is there a light burning
all night ?

Yes, and there are officers watching ; but it is not so at St. Albans.

198. Earl

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 19

198. Earl Cathcart.'] Are the prisoners packed so close together at night, J.G.Perry, Esq.
that one can scarcely pass between them ?

Ygg 3d March 1P63.

log. If a man wanted to get out at night, from any cause, how is that
arranged for ?

He climbs over his sleeping fellow prisoners ; and at the present time there
are rooms in which the beds are placed upon the floor so close together, that
the floor is not visible between them.

200. If a man wants to pass out, in case of illness during the night, for the
purposes of nature, he is obliged to crawl over his sleeping fellow prisoners ?

He is.

201. ¥i^x\ oi Malmeshury .'\ Have you found that the prisoners feel a strong
repulsion to being in the dark so many hours?

Some prisoners have complained to me of it.

202. Do you find that generally felt as a very severe punishment?

No, I tliink that prisoners would generally take it as a part of their lot, and
would lie down and sleep as much as they could.

203. But it is, in fact, an aggravation of their punishment?
The more inteUigent would think so.

204. Looking at it as a punishment, is it deleterious to their health ?

I think it is productive of slothful habits ; a man could scarcely follow that
practice for many months, and go out as active and alert and disposed for early
rising as he was before.

205. Would not it rather have a contrary efi"ect ; after having been pvmished
by 16 hours of darkness, would not a man be very glad to be relieved from that
peculiarity incidental to prisons ?

I think that would depend very much upon the constitution of his mind ; I
think the general run of prisoners would probably feel it as an indulgence to
have nothing to do ; the more stupid class would.

206. I am speaking of their remaining in darkness?

If they have light in tiieir cells they would probably have work to do.

207. Earl oi Dudley.^ Are not nine-tenths of the men found in gaols exactly
of that sort that you speak of, who would be perfectly content if they were 24
hours in darkness so long as they had food ?

Yes.

20S. Duke oi 3Iurlhorovgh.'] Is not this a matter which would be regulated
by the rules of the prison ?

There are no rules in general bearing upon that point.

209. It would be within the power of the Secretaiy of State to require the
adoptiim of a rule regulating the hours of rest, would it not ?

No doubt he might insert that rule as he might any other, when the rules
are sent up annually ; but it would be nugatory, unless the cells were lighted
in winter.

210. Do you conceive that the same difficulty exists with regard to the inser-
tion of that rule, as you stated in answer to a former question, as regards the
adoption of any rules proposed by the Secretary of State ; that is to say, you
conceive that there is no power which actually enables the Secretary of State
to enforce rules of his own selection.

No, there is no penalty for the non-reception of them.

211. Karl of Rom)ie{j.] But in those gaols the rule is, that the prisoners shall
be locked up at a certain time ?

It is not always a rule certified, but a bye-law, a sub-rule as I may call it.

212. Earl of Dudley. "\ But it holds good in that prison ?
Yes.

2 1 3. Earl of Eomiicy.'] It is not a rule which has been adopted by the Quar-
ter Sessions and sanctioned by the Secretary of State ?

(37. 1.) c 2 I think-

20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

i/, G. Perry, Esq. \ think in many instances it has not been adopted by the Quarter Sessions
'd March i86i ^^^ ^^^ Secretary of State, but by the Visiting Justices.

214. But there are cases in which it is just as much a rule that they shall be

locked up at that particular hour, as it is the rule that the uien shall not be put
into the same cells with the women ?

That may be so ; I am not objecting to locking them up at that hour, but to
their being locked up in darkness.

215. Of course that depends entirely on what their object is in imprison-
ment ; if you suppose that the prisoners are always to be impioving their
minds, of course the darkness is against their doing so ; but as a matter of
punishment a man dislikes darkness, and he is more punished by being kept in
darkness than if he was able to read an amusing book "1

I suppose that a small portion of them would dislike it very much indeed ;
that is to say, the more intelligent of them ; but the general mass of them would
be perfectly indifferent, even if they did not like it.

216. With regard to those men who are sentenced to hard labour, and have
been working at the treadmill, I presume they would go to sleep r

Yes.

217. And they would sleep during the 12 hours?

Yes ; but it is a great deal longer than is requisite for their refreshment.

218. Chairmau.] Do you remember what the resolution of the House of
Commons was in 1850 on the subject of sleep ?

I do not.

a 19. Do you not remember that the maximum which was there laid down
was eight hours.

I do not remember it at this moment.

220. In vour opinion, is eight hours sleep sufficient for any prisoner r
It is.

221. Lord WodeJini/se.] Is there not this objection, looking upon darkness as
a punishment, that the amount of punishment inflicted upon a man would
depend upon the time of the year ?

Yes.

222. Earl Cathcarf.l Are you aware that in some instances lately they litter
down beds on the floors of the workroom as soon as they have done work ?

I have known that done in one prison in this county, in Coldbath Fields^;

223. What is your opinion with regard to such an arrangement as that of
littering down beds upon the workroom floor r

I think it is a very bad arrangement, and I have objected to it, and it has been
discontinued.

224. Is it possible to make those workrooms clean, and ventilate them properly
before prisoners sleep in them ?

The windows are put open for some time while the prisoners go down to their
suuper, and therefore the air is changed, no doubt.

225. Do not you consider that the whole question with regard to beds and
bedding in prisons demands inquiry and consideration ?

The beds and bedding are generally very good.

226. Do you not think that hammocks are a very luxurious kind of bed in
themselves, and that they are unnecessarily soft and luxurious?

I do not think so. I do not think that the prisoners prefer them to beds ?

227. It is the opinion of some people, and you concur in that opinion, do you
not, that it is very desirable that the hammocks should be done away with, and
that planks should be made to fold down, and that a bed ])ut upon the planks
is not so soft as a hammock r

I think that a hammock is a very convenient arrangement on account of the
small sj)ace which it occupies in the day time, but I do not think it is regarded

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 21

"by the prisoners as a very desirable mode of sleeping. I think they would just ^' G. Perry, Esq.

as soon sleep upon a flat bed. ^^ March 1863.

228. Are you aware that in military prisons they take away the soldiers' bed-

ding, and when the soldier is obliged to be on duty once in three nights they do

the same ?
Yes.

229. Could that be applied in civil prisons ; do you think it would be desirable
to take away the soft part of the bed, and leave nothing but the planks ?

I do not think it would be desirable ; it would not contribute to health
to do so.

230. Marquess of /S'ff/ii/!';/?^/.] Would it do the reverse ?
Yes; it would, in nw opinion.

231. In what respects?

By keeping the men awake, and giving them had nights.

232. It seems that sometimes sheets are used, and sometimes not; do you
•consider it essential that sheets should be used for the purposes of cleanliness r

1 have invariably promoted the use of them for the purpose of cleanliness
and economy also. When sheets are not used the blankets wear out very fast,
partly by the friction of the feet, and partly by the frequent necessity of wasli-
ing them, because, unless they are washed almost as frequently as the sheets
when they are used without sheets, they would tend to propagate disease in the
prison, and therefore they require to be frequently washed ; and a blanket,
every time that it is washed, loses something of its tliickness, and it very soon
wears out, and as they are very much more costly than sheets, it is found to be
a great deal more economical to have sheets ; and wherever they have been
adopted, which they are now very generally, upon my recommendation, I have
been told afterwards that the saving has been very large on that account.

233. Duke of 3I(irlborough.] Would you think it better to give them proper
bedding, but to limit the number of hours during which prisoners should be
in bed ?

Yes.

234. 'Would it be better than subjecting them to any hardships, such as Ipng
on boards, or anything of that kind ?

Yes.

235. Oiairman-I Would you designate by the name of hardship the guard
beds which are used in the army, which are simply tressels with planks, and a
mattrass upon the top of the planks ?

^Vhen they have not hammocks, tliey have wooden beds generally in prisons.
I do not speak of that as a hardship ; I think, in many uistances, the prisoners
Avould prefer that mode of sleeping.

23<). Then I understand that you do not object to the use of guard beds ?
1 have never seen them employed.

237. Would you object to them ?

In theory, I suppose they would be much the same as a wooden bedstead,
except that they are closer to the ground. There would be no advantage in
having them closer to the ground that I am aware of.

238. Earl Cathcart.'] Are you aware that in workhouses the vagrant wards
are fitted up witli a bed of that descrij)tion ; merely a sloping plank ?

I have not seen them, but I have heard that it is so.

239. Cliairman.l You have stated that the use of such beds would possibly
deprive prisoners of sleep ; but if they had hard labour for eight or ten hours in
the day, are you not of opinion that sleep would come fast enough, whether
they were in a guard bed or whether they were in a hammock.

I am not prepared to say ; I tliirik that there are a great many persons who
would pass very restless nights if they sle|)t upon a plank witliout any bedding,
and tliat those men, if that were repeated constantly, would have their health
impaired.

(37.1.) c 3 240. Earl

22 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G. Perry, Esq. 240. Earl Cathcart.'] I have received a letter from an intelligent governor of

a gaol, who suggests to me that hammocks are too comfortable and luxurious,

3d March 1863. ^^^ j^^ suggests, that instead of having slung hammocks, the bottom of the
bed should be of planks, with a coarse mattress on those planks ; but you do
not concur with him in the view that a hammock is a luxurious kind of bed ?
I do not think it is so regarded generally.

241. Earl of Romney.} Do you understand by lying on the plank, that the
planks should be without any bed between the man and the plank ?

Yes.

242. IVIarquess of Sal/sbiirj/.] Did I not understand you to state, that you
think it is injurious to the health of a prisoner to sleep upon a plaok?

In those instances in which they would be kept awake by it, and which, I
think, would be the case frequently.

243. If they were not kept awake by it, you do not. think it would be
injurious ?

There are some persons who can sleep very well upon a bare plank.

244. Do vou think, if they were to sleep constantly on a bare plank, it would
injure their health, provided they got a sufficient amount of sleep ?

No, certainly not ; they must have sufficient clothing over them, of course,
but 1 think that there are a great number of persons who would not be able to
sleep so. For instance, there are old prisoners, who would be subject to
rheumatism, and who would suffer most grievously from such an arrangement.
Men in the army being generally in the prime of life, could bear that discipline
better than many prisoners, who come in with broken constitutions, and many
of them advanced in life, and subject to rheumatism and other diseases.

245. Lord Sleicai'd-I Your great difficulty is, that it either prevents their
sleeping, and so injures their health, or where it does not prevent their sleeping,
they iiet so accustomed to that mode of passing their life that it leaves no
painful recollection upon their mind ?

No, certainly not.

246. Duke of Alarlhoroiigh.'] Do you consider that the mere fact of a prisoner
being deprived of his liberiy and being placed in confinement, operates upon
him in such a way as to require a certain amount of comfort to be administered
to him in the prison, in order to sustain his health ; that is to say, comparing
his situation with the hardships to which a labouring man is subjected, with
regard to sleeping, do you consider that the confinement to which the prisoner
is subjected is of itself sufficient to require that he should be more comfortably
provided for than he would be under the ordinary conditions, either of a
soldier, or of a labourer who is at liberty and is performing his duty ?

No, I do not think so. 1 think, for the reasons I have just stated, that a
great many persons who come to prison, come in in a very infirm state of
health, and that tliey, on that acconnt, would hardly l)e abli' to bear the hard-
shi{)S which more robust people outside would be able to bear — and very few
labourers sleep upon boards, 1 imagine.

247. Do you imagine that the mere fact of the confinement itself creates a
drain upon the physical energies or constitution?

1 do, but I do not think that in a strong man that would be much increased
by his sleeping on a hard bed ; but there is no doubt that the depression of
mind wliich accompanies imprisonment requires that prisoners should be better
supported than they would require to be if they were outside.

24S. One of the eliief elements of support in sustaining the health of the
frame would be sleep, would it not ?
Yes.

240. Is it not the fact that if a prisoner's sleep were impaired frequently,
there would be an additional tax put upon his constitution from the fact of
his being in continement?

Certainlv-

2.30. Earl of Dudley.] If only eiyht hours were allowed for sleep in every
prison, you would have great difficulty, would you not, about the prison

arrangements.

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 23

arrangements. Let us suppose that the prisoners went to bed at nine o'clock J. G. Perry, Esq.

at niarht, thev would have to rise at five in the mornins; ?

Yes 3d Marcli 1863.

^^51. Then everybody in the prison would have to be on foot again by five in
the morning ?
Yes.

2.52. That is not the case now, at all, is it r

Generally speaking, they are up before six in most prisons ; if they were
only eight hours in bed you could hardly say that they had eight hours sleep ;
but the question was j)ut to me whether I thought more than eight hours
sleep was required.

253. As a matter of course, if a man turns in in the darkness, be it four or
be it six o'clock, the natural tendency is to sleep the whole of those hours that
have to be consumed before the gaoler comes, or anything is doing ?

Yes ; but he does not sleep the whole night ; he will probably sleep a short
time, and then lie awake a great deal, and then go to sleep again.

254. I understand you to say that you would recommend their having lights
up to a certain time, in order that they may be employed in something, or taught
something, and then go to bed after that employment ?

Yes ; and that would be the most convenient time for education.

255. You think that the time is so long that it tends to produce habits of
sloth ?

es.

256. Do you also say that sleeping so much renders them luxui'ious in their
habits ?
Yes.

2,57. Earl Catlicart.~\ You mean to tell their Lordships that their being so
long in bed, and so ]ong shut up in that way, tends not only to slothful habits,
but to degrading and almost disgusting habits ?

Yes ; that is what I alluded to when I said just now, that it led even to
worse habits.

258. Lord irodehouse.'] \\\ fact, when you speak of eight hours, the arrange-
ment which you probably contemplate would be that the cells should be shut
up about nine o'clock, and that the prisoner should be on foot again about six
o'clock, leaving about half an hour for going to bed, and composing himself,
and half an hour in the morning for getting up and cleaning himself, and
leaving eight hours for sleep ?

Yes.

259. I understand you to say that if a regulation of that kind were in force
in all prisons, and at the same time all the cells were properly hghted, then, as
regards the matter of sleep, the prisons would have all that you would
recommend ?

Yes.

260. Duke of Marlborough.'] Do you think it desirable that uniformity of
practice should exist in ditlerent gaols as regards the matter of food and beds,
and bedding, and the hours of sleep ?

Yes, I think tliat would be very desirable. I do not think that there are any
circumstances affecting prisoners in different parts of the country which would
make them require more or less sleep.

261. Earl oiDudlaj.'] At all events in one district, such as yours, there would
be no such variation of temperature or other reasons why there should not be
one and the same rule ?

None whatever. I consider uniformity in that and other rules is most
desirable wherever it can be obtained.

262. Chairman.'] In the majority of certified cells what is the nature of the
floor, is it paved or of wood ?

(3;. 1.) c 4 It

24 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G. Perry, Esq. I^ IS sometimes paved with stone, sometimes of tile, and sometimes of

asphalte; more commonly, I think, of asphalte.

3d March 1863.

_ ■263. Have you any |)articular preference with regard to that matter?

Yes ; I should prefer having it of .srone to asphalte, because a slow decom-
position appears to go on in the asphalte, which produces an unpleasant smell
in the cell without anything else.

264. Asphalte occasionally imbibes the moisture, and exhales it at particular
periods as well, does it not ?

1 should not have supposed that that was the case, but it becomes softened
in warm weather, so that even the weight of the table causes the leg to sink
into the floor.

265. Do you see any object in point of health or in point of disciiDline why
you would prefer having the floors of stone ?

I think they may be kept more clean and dry.

266. Marquess of Salishia-jj.] Is not stone very absorbent of moisture ?
Some kinds of stone are exceedinglv so. One objection, perhaps, to the use

of stone is, that as the stone of a particular district is likely to be used, it may
happen that that may be a soft, porous stone, and therefore unfit for the
purpose.

267. And you think that that would be injurious to the health of the
prisoners ?

Yes, it might be injurious to the health of the prisoners. The same thing
appUes somewhat to cells, and I tiiink it is on that account that asphalte has
been so commonly preferred. I cannot say that I think that the exhalation
which I have observed from the asphalte is likely to be injurious to health. Of
course the softening of it, which I have observed, is not of any material con-
sequence.

268. Chairman.'] Have you never known any injurious consequences to
health from the floor being of stone, ])rovided that the stone was not of an
exceptional nature ?

No, not at all.

269. Are you aware of any prisons in which that stone pavement has been
covered up in any way with matting or with carpet''

No, excepting in those cells which are intended for sick persons or for lying-
in women.

270. But not for an ordinarv prisoner?

No.

271. Earl Cat heart.'] Is it admitted by all those who are best informed in the
science of prison disciphne that separation is essential to prevent con-
tamination .

I should not like to take upon myself to say that it is so regarded by all those
persons, but I think that almost the universal opinion is in favour of it.

272. I asked with regard to the jxople uho are best informed with regard to
prison discipline. Do you think that there is any great difference of opinion
with regard to that essential jjrinciple, namely, that separation is essential to
prevent contamination :

I think that there is no difference of opinion about that.

273. Is it not a most fixed ])rinci])le, and, indeed, almost the only really fixed
and hmdamental principle in the science, that sci)aration is essential.

It is so in my own opinion, and the opinion ot those whom I consider the
best infcnnued upon the suliject.

274. Chairman ] Can you state what is the average thickness of the walls of
separation between the dift'erent cells i

I cannot at this mcnnent ; it varies very much in dift'erent prisons ; I think
that information would be best obtained by a reference to the reports of the
Pentonville Prison, which are generally taken as tlie standard in building prisons;
though not always.

275- In

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 25

27,';. In many prisons the walls are not of such a thickness as to exclude the j ^ p^^^ ^^^

possibility of communication between prisoner and prisoner? ' ; '

Certainly not, communication by sounds. 3d March 1803.-

276. Have not those sounds sometimes been reduced to language ?

So it has been said, but I think that that must be a very fanciful idea, because
as they will not have an op])ortunity of conferring together to agree upon the
significance of the sounds, it is not likely that they can communicate an)' fact
by them. There is no doubt that they can excite attention and make them-
selves heard very easily thi'ough the walls, but a voice cannot be heard.

277. Do you believe that there are any prisons with which you are ac-
quainted in which communication in some manner or other does not pass ?

I feel sure that there are prisons in which no communication takes place of
any kind.

278. Duke of jMaiihorou(fli.~\ Will you state what prisons those are?

One of those that I had in my mind was the gaol at Bristol; there are two
prisons there, but the one that I allude to is the gaol at Bristol.

279. .Are you referring to the county gaol?
No, it belongs to the city.

280- C/uiinhan.'] Is it on the separate system ?

There are separate cells throughout, but they are not certified for separate
confinement because they are too small, and they are not artificially ventilated.

2S1 . Marquess of Salisbury ] Is there any peculiarity of construction in those
cells ?

No, not any ; but it arises from the good management and extreme vigilance
of the governor.

282. Lord WockIio7ise.'] What is the effect of the cells not being certified as
to the restrictions which are put iq^on the governing authorities of gaols ?

The effect is very small indeed, because it is impossible to control the time
that a prisoner is kept in a cell, and the Act of Parliament does not define what
length of confinement in the cell shall constitute separate confinement ; and
therefore in some prisons, where the cells are not certified, the prisoners are
really kept as long in them as they are in certified cells. I always set my
face against it, and insist upon their being walked out of doors, or exercising
more, but that is not done to any very great extent, I think.

283. I suppose that, practically, in some at least of the gaols where the cells,
though separate, are not certified, the prisoners are employed more in labour
out of doors than is the case where, the cells being certified, they are kept ex-
clusively in the cells, with the exception of a short time for exercise ?

Yes.

2 84. There is that practical distinction, though there is no absolute rule ?

Yes.

28/5. Duke of Marlborough.] Is it the case now that the cells are required
to be certified befoie the prisoners are allowed to be subjected to separate
confinement in them?

Y'es.

286. Is that bv the old Act of Parliament ?

No ; it is by the 2d and 3d of the present reign, c. 56.

287. Lord Wodehoiiic] Is it not necessary to draw some distinction with
regard to the length of time that the prisoners are confined in their cells ; that
is to say, you may either a(loj)t the whole system of separate confinement as it
is spoken of by persons who write upon this subject, under which system the
prisoners are entu'ely confined to their cells, with exception of an hour or an
hour and a half for exercise, as is the case in Pentonville, or you may adopt a
system under whicli the prisoners are in separate cells whenever they are not
at work, by which you obtain a certain amount of the benefit of the separate
system, though you have not the whole ; it is necessary, is it not, to make that
distinction ?

Yes.

(37.1.) D 288. Do

26 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

/. G. Perry, Esq. 288. Do you not think that, although you may have in a prison cells which

• — ' are not sufficiently large or well ventilated to be certified, yet that it is very

'^ " ^"^^ ^' important, even where that is the case, that tlie prisoners should sleep in

separate cells, and should be separated as far as possible consistently with their

being employed during the day at hard labour.

Certainly ; and at the Bristol prison to which I have alluded, the prisoners
are taken out of their cells very much for hard labour, but they are not
associated when they are out of their cells ; they work in separate sheds.
Lately they have abandoned the treadwheel ; they used to work the treadwheel,
but the prisoners were in separate partitions — ever}^ man was shut into his
partition, so that no communication could take place between them in the
treadmill, but now tbey have abandoned that system for the purpose of adopting
productive labour, which has been carried on to a very great extent by the
present governor.

289. In your opinion, in the case of old gaols, where it would be very
difficult, except at a very large expense, or by the construction of a new gaol,
thoroughly to carry out what is called the separate system, is it not the best
plan to do as is done in the Bristol gaol, namely, to separate the prisoners at
night, and to employ them in work during the day, separating them one from,
another whilst they are at work ?

Yes, if it can be done ; and it can be done by the exercise of a due degree
of care and ingenuity on the part of the governor.

290. My object in asking the question is this, that there a,re a great number
of gaols throughout the country in which the separate system could not be
completely carried out, and yet a very great improvement might be made in
the system, by adopting it partially ; and I wish to ascertain your opinion,
whether that partial adoption of the system would not be, pi'actically, a very
good object to aim at.

Certainly ; I am of that opinion.

291 . Earl Cat heart.] What is the most glaring example that you are acquainted
with, of the evils of association in a prison within your district ?

Perhaps the most glaring example of that is the one that has been mentioned,
that is to say, the prii-on where two prisoners slept in one bed.

292. You do not refer, do you, to Coldbath Fields ?

No ; they have never arrived at that in Coldbath Fields.

293. Do you mean, that at the present moment two prisoners sleep in one
bed in the case that you refer to ?

No ; that is not the case now.

294. What is the worst example at the present moment?

I suppose that when the Falmouth Prison is full, that is about the worst.

295. Which would be the next to that?

Coldbath Fields is very bad in that respect now ; but 300 separate cells are
in the course of erection there.

296. Do you thinl< it is absolutely essential that some measures should be
taken to prevent communication, where prisoners are associated ?

Yes ; I think so.

297. You probably mean, that that should be done by legislation ?

Yes; by giving greater power than exists at present, to insist upon the
prisoners in the smaller gaols being sent to the well provided county gaols or
borough gaols in the neighbourhood.

298. You are clearly of opinion that such are the evils of association that
measures ought to be taken at once to put a stop to the system entirely ?

Yes, I do think so ; and I say this not merely upon moral grounds, but upon
political grounds also ; because I am quite sure that the thing which has con-
tributed more than any other to getting employment for the prisoners after
their discharge from prison, is the conviction that is entertained m the neigh-
bourhood of those prisons which are conducted on the separate system that
no additional criminality can have been derived by a prisoner during his resi-
dence in the gaol ; that is to say, that he has not been allowed to associate

with

3d March I863.

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 27

with the other prisoners, and that, at any rate, he is not any the worse for his j. g. Perry, E&n.
imprisonment.

2Qq. Would it surprise you to be told that in one prison there was a
prostitute associated with a young woman who had before been tolerably decent
in her conduct, and that arrangements were made by which the prostitute
induced this girl, who was formerly comparatively innocent, to come to her
house and become afterwards a prostitute ; would it be confirmed by your
experience that such a circumstance might occur ?

That such things have occurred I have not the least doubt.

300. "Woidd you be surprised to hear that a bui'glary, with violence, has
been concocted upon the treadmill between two prisoners .'

I should not be surprised at it.

301. There was a curious instance in which a very dangerous burglary was
planned in Winchester Gaol between two prisoners, who were afterwards
executed for the same offence ?

It would not surprise me that such a thing should occur in associated
prisons.

302. Chairman.'] Would not such communication be impossible, or next to
impossible, on the tieadmiU if there were separate compartments in which the
prisoners were confined.

Yes, if they were sufficiently well constructed, and if the prisoners in the
intervals of rest were kept as separate as they are on the treadmill ; but that
is not always the case ; 1 have seen prisoners who are separated on the wheel
sitting upon the bench in front of the wheel in the intervals of rest.

303. Lord IFodehouse.] Is it not easy to guard against that by making the
prisoners sit down during the intervals of rest, and always having the otiicers
continually walking up and down in front of the prisoners to see that they
cannot converse ?

Ihat may be done by proper care, or they may sit in separate compart-
ments.

304. Earl Cathcart.'] Is not communication on the treadmill a great source
of prison crime and punishment.

There are very few prisons in which the prisoners are not now separated on
the treadmill by partitions, but it is not invariably so ; in the great prison at
Worcester it is not so on all the treadmills.

30> Lord JVoddiousc.'] ^\'ould you be prepared to go so far as to say that
in any associated gaol where the system of association is kept up, you would
recommend that it should be discontinued even though it be a county gaol r

Yes, certainly.

306, Chairman.] In fact, you would recommend that the law should enforce
a general system of separation throughout the country :

1 should recommend that most strenuously.

307. Earl of Romncy.'] May I ask whether your object has regard to the benefit
of the prisoner or to the benefit of the public ?

Both ; first, as regards the prisoner, that it would prevent his being further
contaminated ; and it affects the public, because, of course the comparative
innocence of a prisoner is a very great object to them, and they can also
more safely take the prisoner into their employ after he goes out of gaol.

305. You think it a decidedly good plan for reforming a man to shut him
up in a room by himself, and let him see no one.

Not to let him associate with other prisoners.

309. You mean that he shall associate with nobody else on terms of
equality because his intercourse is confined to the turnkey, who is a respect-
able man, or the chajjlain, or the warder.

The turnkey is superior only in being respectable ; many of the turnkeys
are c[uite as illiterate as the prisoners.

310. Do you think that from his being shut up in that way there is any
probability of his reformation ?

(37- 1.) D 2 Provided

28 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G. Perry, Esq. Provided that the confinement be attended with other means. I do not
, ,r^ — ~ „„ think that merely shutting the man up is sufficient.

3d March 1863. ' ° '

— 311. Were you ever in a prison, or did you ever know a prison under the

old prison system where the men associated in the yards r
Yes ; many.

312. You think that is an undoubted evil?
Decidedly so.

313. Do you think that there was no good in the habit that a man might
learn in that association, of restraining his temper and the habits that he had
been indvdging in towards other men ?

I do not think that self-control would be so likel}^ to result as the excitement
of temper. The quarrels were very great. I have known prisoners fight in
the day-rooms from quarrels taking place between them.

314. Have you ever l<nown an instance of a man who began to fight when
he came in, becoming afterwards, through being compelled to resti-ain himself,
a ver}' quiet man r

I cannot say that I have when the prisoners have been in association.

315. Marquess of Salisburij.'] What other means of reformation do you
allude to besides imprisonment .'

Labour and education.

316. Earl Cuthcart.^ When prisoners are associated, it would be impossible,
wonld it not, for any man more decent than the others to pray or meditate, or
anything of that sort, without being mocked by his comrades ?

(^)uite so.

317. The sum of what you say is this : with regard to contamination, that
if evil communications corrupt good manners they will certainly much more
corrupt bad ones ?

Yes ; the better disposed will very soon sink to the level of the worst, and
there is very little chance that the worst will be improved l:)y association.

318. Earl of Roiuneij.] When I talk of associated prisoners, I do not mean that
the prisoners are associated during the night, but in separate cells at night and
associated during the day ; do not you think that an improvement might be
made with regard to classification, if instead of classifying them as under the
Act of the 4th of George the Fourth, according to the offences for which the
man is now in prison, they were . classified, according to the knowledge and
experience of the keeper and of the visiting justices r

Yes ; they are very seldom classified according to the 4th of George the
Fourth.

319. But they must be so in associated prisons, must they not ?
Yes, they must.

3 1 9.* In associated prisons if it were left to the discretion of those who know
from the look of a prisoner immediately what sort of a man he is, and if they
were placed according to what was known of them, and not according to the
offence for which they happened to be imprisoned at the present moment, do not
you think that that might be a very great advantage over the present system?

I think it might, and it is done in some instances, even though there is not
the sanction of the law for it.

320. It is a violation of the Act of Parliament, is it not ?

It is so, Init the governors sometimes take the responsibility of removing a
prisoner from his class if they think that he is very nuu;h less contaminated
than the others in the room, and of putting him by himself.

321. Then, if they were associated in that way, might not this happen, that
by being in society together, so far from doing themselves harm, very often a man
of uncontrolled temper might be obliged to yield to others, and he might
become a better man in consequence ?

That is possible, but I should not be sanguine as to such an effect.

322. Duke of JMarlhoroii'^h.'] Would not the probability lie very much in the
other direction, and that if a man is predisposed to lose his temper if he fotnid

that

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 29

that others were equally predisposed, it might in all probability aggravate J- G. Perry, Esq,

I should rather expect that effect myself. ^ '^'

323. Lord Wodehoiise.'] I collect it to be your opinion that, apart from all other
questions of discipline, it is conclusively in favour of separating the prisoners,
and that in no other wav can you avoid contamination ?

Yes.

3'.:4. And that you think that that negative good is certain to be obtained by
separating them ?
Yes.

32,5. And that any possible advantages which might result from association
are quite certain to be overbalanced by the certain evils which must result from
their being contaminated ?

That is quite my opinion.

326. Earl Cat/icart.'] Would it not be cruel, as well as unjust, supposing that
a man is innocent, and is committed for trial, that he should be herded with a
number of the worst possible characters, and should be associated with them?

Such a thing would never be in accordance with my experience,

327. In associated prisons that must be done, must it not ?
Whenever I find it out I always object to it very strongly.

328. A man with tolerable decency of feeling would much prefer being kept
by himself instead of being mixed up with a number of bad characters, would
he not ?

Undoubtedly ; but a man committed for trial is not necessarily better than
those who are convicted ; but when a decent man is in an associated prison
the governor generally puts him into a room by himself if he can.

329. Chairman^ The Com.mittee would wish to have some infonnation with
regard to the executive staff of officers in the prisons ; can you state what the
general staff of any ordinary certified prison comprises ?

Nothing can be more various than the proportion which the officers bear to
the prisoners.

330. Would you be good enough first to state what the different officers are,
without regard to the proportion r

Tiiere is a governor, and where the prison is large there is commonly a
deputy-governor; a certain number of warders (which is a very varying number
in different prisons), a chaplain, and in very large prisons an assistant chaplain,
or a second chaplain v/ith equal powers with the first. If the prison is on the
separate system there is an engineer for the management of the fires, and
indeed for general repairs, which are continually wanted, a cook, a gate-porter,
a surgeon, a schoolmaster, a matron, and trades' instructors generally ; but
the warders are generally chosen on account of their proficiency in trades, so
that they may be able to instruct the prisoners.

331. The appointment of the governor rests with the sheriff, does it not, in
certain cases ?

In most gaols I think tliat originally the sheriff had the appointment, Imt it
is now very rarely made by the sheriff; the appointment is generally made by
the Quarter Sessions.

332. And in boroughs, how is it made r
In boroughs it is made by the magistrates.

333. Lord President.] By the Quarter Sessions you mean the magistrates in
Quarter Sessions r

Yes.

334. Marquess of Salisburj/.] The sheriff has no power to pay the governor ?

No.

335. And, therefore, it entirely falls into the hands of the magistrates ?
Just so ; I have known an instance where the sheriff made the appointment,

and where the man was incompetent and the salary was withdrawn.

(37 1.) D 3 33^- Earl

30 MINUTKS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G. Perry, Esq. 33^'- Earl Romney.'] Is it not the fact that the sheriff always appoints the

keeper of the gaol ?

3d March 1863. ] beheve that the sheriff has a voice in the appointment; but as the keeper
of the gaol is always the keeper also of the house of correction, he is generally
appointed first as keeper by the magistrates and accepted by the sheriff,

337. It is the case that the sheriff appoints the gaoler, and the magistrates
the keeper of the house of correction ?

Yes ; but now that the prisons are combined, there is combined action in
the appointment.

33'!i. Lord Steward.'] Practically the united office of gaoler and keeper of the
house of correction is filled up by the appointment of the magistrates assembled
at Quarter Sessions ?

Yes, I think it is ; but as gaoler he must be confirmed by the sheriff,
because he has the care of the debtors, and gives security to the sheriff for
them.

339. Earl of Malmesbury.l If the sheriff appoints the gaoler, who has the
autliority to dismiss him in case of misconduct ?

I apprehend that the sheriff has the power to dismiss him as gaoler, but not
as governor of the house of correction.

340. Then a complaint must first be made to the sheriff of the misconduct of
the gaoler before he can be got rid of?

The practice is different in different places, I believe, and in boroughs and in
counties. I have one case in my mind where the Secretary of State caUed
upon the justices to dismiss a gaoler ; in that case the gaoler was appointed by
the bailiff, and he refused to dismiss him. Therefore the same power that
appointed him had the power of dismissing him in that case ; but there it was
not the sheriff, but the bailiff of the borough.

341. In that case the Secretary of State did not consider that the gaoler was
the officer of the sheriff ?

No, certainly not, but that was in a borough.

342. Earl Cat heart.] Do not the justices pay him a certain part of his
salary ; he receives fees from the sheriff, but his salary is paid by the magis-
trates, is it not ?

1 believe that the justices pay him all ; I do not think that the sheriff pays
the gaoler.

343. Lord Wodehousc] It is provided in the Act of the 4th of George the
Fourth, that the magistrates shall fix the salary, both of keepers of gaols and
the keepers of prisons ?

That is what I say ; that the magistrates certainly pay them.

344. Duke of Marlboroiig/i.] Is it supposed that the magistrates do not
ap])oint the gaoler, but only the keeper of the house of correction ?

They appoint the keeper of the house of correction, and as they never
have two separate officers, the keeper of the house of correction is accepted
by the sheriff as the gaoler, and gives security to the sheriff for the
debtors.

345. Chairman.] Can you state what is the maximum salary of a governor in
your district r

I beheve 600 I.

346. And what is the minimum ?

That is very low indeed ; 20 /. or even less.

347. Those two salaries imply an entirely different class of people, from which
the govei-nors are selected r

Yes, entirely ; the highest salary in my district is that of the governor of the
Middlesex House of Correction.

348. Y)\\kc oi Marlborouijh.] Have you ever known any inconvenience arise
from the appointment of tlie gaoler being vested in the sheriff, while that of the
keeper of the prison is in the magistrates, from the fact of the two being
combined in one ])erson, and the sheriff not sanctioning the appointment made
by the magistrates of the keeper of the liouse of correction ?

I have

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 31

I have never known any such eiise of inconvenience. The only incon- /. G. Perry, Esq.

venience that I recollect, is where a gaoler having been appointed by the sheriff

and found to be incompetent for his oiBce, the magistrates reduced his salary 3^ March 1863.
with a view to leading to his resignation. That is the only instance which has
occurred within my knowledge, and that was many years ago.

349. Did it lead to his resignation in that instance ?
Yes, it did.

350. Chairman.'] I presume that the case of the dismissal of a governor is a
very rare case ?

It has been recommended by the Secretary of State, in two instances within
my district, in my time, and in each case resisted by the magistrates, and the
magistrates carried the point. In the first case, the man was afterwards guilty
of forgery upon the county to a very large extent, and he was prosecuted and
transported ; and in the other case the gaoler still remains.

351. Eaxl Cathcart.] With reference to the number of debtors confined in
prisons, it is very greatly reduced now, is it not ?

Yes, it is very much reduced.

352. Therefore, in the prisons the debtors are pretty well accommodated
now?

Yes, there is generally very much more room than is required for debtors,
and only within the last week I have pointed out a change which might be
made in taking some of the debtors' cells for criminals.

353. Do not you consider that the class of persons appointed as governors
are generally superior to what they were some time ago with reference to intel-
ligence, and so on ?

Yes, they are men of intelligence and social position who are appointed now,
but 1 am not sure that that is always a security for their competence for the
office,

354. Within your experience has the class of persons who are appointed as
governors of prisons improved in intelligence and in position ?

In intelligence and social position certainly, but not always, as I have said,
in fitness for the office. I should myself rather prefer promoting a good officer
from the lower ranks than bringing in a sti'anger who has never seen a prison
in his life perhaps, and whose only acquaintance is with military discipline. I
do not mean that to apply to all instances of the kind, for I have known some
very good military governors, but I do not think that military education is the
best preparation for the office of governor of a prison in all cases.

355. Chairman.'] What are the faults that a military education tend to
develope in the management of a gaol ?

It leads the governor to treat prisoners in a mass rather than as individuals.

356. Your opinion being that you ought to individualise the treatment as
much as possible r

Yes ; and that the characters of the men should be studied.

3.57. Earl of Romney.] Military governors rather like to govern by means of
the turnkeys than by knowing the prisoners themselves personally ?
Yes, that is frequently the tendency.

358. Chairman.] Would it not be impossible, in a gaol with 800 or 900
prisoners, for the governor to individualise to the extent of personally being
acquainted with the characters of his prisoners.

If it were adopted amongst the subordinate officers that system of individual-
isation might be carried out very well. I do not mean to say that the governor
himself is to be the sole means of carrying it out, but if he inculcates that
system amongst his inferior officers, they may all assist in the work, and that
a mihtary man is very little likely to do ; and on that account I have frequently
seen instances where military governors are too much, as I have thought, dis-
posed to rule by military discipline, and by general rules, rather than by indi-
vidual means.

3,5Q. Lord Steward.] Do you not think that a good commanding officer of a

regiment endeavours, either by himself or by his subordinate officers, to make

(37. 1.) D 4 himself

gd March 18^3.

32 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G. Pe'-ry, Esq. liiinself acquainted with tiie character of each individual soldier under his
command ?

I do helieve that that happens sometimes, and on that account I have said
that there are excejations to the rule '.vhicli I iiive laid down. I have known
military officers who have had that teiulencv, but I do not think that a military
education leads to that tendency, and prob.ibly those men would liave cultivated
the habit (jf individuaUsation more if they had been civilians.

.3G0. Is not that the pi-actice of everv good commanding officer?

I am not sufficiently acquainted with the discipline of the army to say.

3G1. Earl Cathcart.] Are you not aware that it is the duty of the captain of
a company to know every man of his company, and in his own handwriting, or
that of the officers of the company, to record every offence committed by every
man in his company ?

I presume it is ; but I was not aware of the rule.

3ti2. Chairman.] Passing now to the subordinate officers in the gaol, what
are the limits of the salaries which are generally assigned in certified gaols ?

Generally .speaking, I think the highest salaries in the countv gaols are
about 70 /. a year to the subordinate officers, and 200 /. or 300 /. a year to the
deputy governor.

363. From what class, as a general rule, are the uisciplinaiy officers of a
prison taken ?

Many are pensioned soldiers ; many are countrymen hired fi-om the neigh-
bourhood, and some are policemen.

364. As a class, do you entertain a favourable opinion of them ?
Yes, I do ; 1 think that there are among them a great many very com-
petent men.

36.5. Do you consider that the work is effectively done ?
Yes ; I think it is, generally.

366. Earl Cathcart.] You have mentioned in your report, the case of a chief
warder who was dismissed for having carried communications between prisoner
and prisoner.

Yes, 1 have known such instances ; I am not speaking of their being inva-
riably fit men, but I was asked what was my general impression of them, and
1 think that most of the prisons contain some very good officers.

367. Is it invariablv the rule that they Hve within the walls of the prison r
No.

368. In the majority of instances, what is the case r
Thei-e are generally some that live within the walls, and others in the towns.

369. Do you conceive that it is an objectionable principle that they should
live without the walls ?

Yes, I think it would he much better if they could live within, but it is very
difficult to provide accommodation for them within.

370. Under the regulations of most gaols, are they armed ? '
No.

371. Do you conceive it desirable tliat they .should be unarmed ?
Yes. 1 do not think that it is desirable in general that they shndd be armed.

372. Is there generally a sufficient force at hand to support them in every
gaol ?

Yes, there is generallv sufficient force of officers : but combination among the
prisoners is very uncommon, and when a prisoner attacks an officer, there are
generally two or three ready to assist the officer against him.

373. Loi-d Stnrard.'l Is the period of imprisonment in gaols and houses of
correction sufficiently long to enable the officers to become acquainted with the
character of a jirisoncr r

"i he confinement in gaols and houses of correction sometimes goes up to
three years, and often to two, but that is a very small proportion ; a great many
are confined for si.\ months or for three months.

374. Earl

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCtPLINE. 33

374. Earl Cat heart r\ Could you tell their Lordships of the case of a woman j, g. Perry, Esq.
who was confined in a gaol, in which gaol her own husband was a warder ?

Yes, 1 have heard of such a case. 3d March 1863.

375. I presume such cases as that do not occur frequently, and ought not
to occur at all ?

They are not likely to occur frequently, but I do not see how they are to
be avoided ; sometimes a woman having been guilty of an offence, say an assault
in the town in which she resides, if she is committed to prison at all, must be
sent to that prison where her husband may happen to be an officer ; and I do
not sec how that is to be avoided.

376. Chairman.'] What is the proportion of officers that you consider neces-
sary to a prison ?

That depends very much upon the construction of the prisons ; those that
are best constructed, such as are built at the present day, require a smaller
number of officers than other prisons, which have been altered, perhaps, from the
old system to the new. It is difficult to say exactly what proportion is wanted,
because the number of prisoners varies so much, and the number of officers
cannot be made to vary in the same proportion.

377. Must not the proportion of officers be much greater where, under any
system, you give the prisoners facilities for out-of-door exercise, for agricultural
employment, for trades, instructions in various branches, and for frequent occa-
sions of passing to and fro in different parts of the prison ?

Yes, certainly the proportion must be greater in such cases ; and in prisons
where the prisoners work in association, as at Cold Bath Fields and as at the
Westminster Bridewell, the number of officers must be very large to keep up
a continual supervision over them. The prisons that require the smallest
number of officers are those on the separate system, where the prisoners work
in their cells.

378. And where that system is carried out most strictly?
Yes.

379. As regards the prisoners themselves, are they allowed in any gaols to
see their friends ?

They are, under certain restrictions, and at long intervals of time.

380. Is there always a specified interval between each visit?
It is almost invariably three months.

381. Are they separated by any gratings at those interviews?

They are. They never can approach each other so as to convey anything
from the one to the other, and an officer is generally or almost invariably
placed in the interval between them.

382. What is the interval of time in ordinary cases which is required to
elapse between visit and visit ?

Three months.

383. Are they allowed to receive letters ?

One letter in the interval ; so that they have one letter every three months,
and one visit every three months ; that is the ordinary rule.

384. Are they allowed to write letters r
Yes ; they are allowed to write one letter.

385. Is that treated as a matter of indulgence, or is it limited to particular
classes, or is it thrown open to the whole of the prisoners within the gaol ?

It is a standing rule that a convicted prisoner shall be allowed to write once
in three months, but he may forfeit that privilege by bad behaviour, and his
letter may be postponed for some time.

386. Ave. you aware whether this privilege of communicating operates on
the minds of prisoners as an inducement to good conduct ?

I think it is a good rule in that respect. I think that keei)ing up a man's
association with his home has a good and humanising influence, particularly
as the letters are always seen, and as the prisoner is aware that his letters will
be seen ; but there are a great many instances in which a prisoner cannot

(37. 1.) E write.

3d March 1863.

34 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G. Perri/, Esq. write, and then the letter is written for him by one of the officers of the
prison.

387. Would you say that that holds good in the case of a man taken from
what I may call the habitual class of thief?

That would depend upon the person ^\■ith whom he communicates. There
are some persons whom it would be certainly desirable to deprive altogether of
the privilege, especially if they wrote anything whicli was at all objectionable ;
but they cannot make any communications which are very objectionable with-
out their being discovered by the officers who read the letter.

388. Earl Cathcart.'] In cases where humanity requires it, and there is any
good reason for it, do the visiting justices relax the rule, and allow letters to be
written at a shorter interval than three months ?

Yes, they do by special order.

389. Chairman.'] It must be a special order from the visiting justices, must
it not ?

Yes.

390. Are you aware of any gaols in which prisoners are allowed to under-
take any particular duties in the management of the prison, such as instructing
other prisoners, or acting tliemselves as turnkeys or warders ?

I Lave known two or three instances where they have been allowed to assist
in the instruction of other prisoners ; and I have pointed out that it was con-
trary to law at present. I have sometimes regretted that the law was so
stringent upon that point, inasmuch as I have known men of education who
would have been very competent instructors of the other prisoners, and who, I
have thought, might have been made to assist in the education of prisoners ;
but the law is very strict upon that point, that no prisoner should be employed
in the management of a prison, or in the control of other prisoners.

391. When you speak of the law, do you mean under the statute?
Yes.

392. Would it not be very objectionable to relax that rule, and to enable the
prisoners to be turned into monitors -

. If it were extensively done, it would be very injurious indeed. It is fre-
quently done in convict prisons ; and I Lave known instances where I have
tliought it would be useful in other prisons ; for instance, I have known a clergy-
man to be in prison, who, although guilty of an offence sufficient to bring
him there, was, generally .'^peaking, a good moral man, and who would not
have corrupted the prisoners v/lio were put under his care, and who really
might have been made useful in the instruction of the prisoners.

393. Are there any instances in your district where prisoners have been
allowed to go beyond the walls of the prison on messages, either for the governor
or any other officer ?

I have sometimes discovered it, and have always treated it as an illegal pro-
ceeding, and have remonstrated with the authorities upon it.

394. Are you aware whether it exists at all, as a practice, in any gaol ?
In some.

395. At this moment ?
1 hope not. I have remonstrated against it, and have received promises that

it should be discontinued.

396. Do you consider it to be a desirable thing that the prisoners should be
employed outside the walls of the gaol, or even inside the vvrtlls of the gaol, in
the rei)airs of particular parts of the building 1

I have no objection to their being employed inside the gaol, but certainly
outside the gaol I think it is very objectionable.

397. Are you aware whether that has been done ?
Yes, I am sure it has, in some cases.

398. Has it been done frequently ?

No, very seldom.

399. In

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 35

399. In what gaol has that been done r j^ G. Perry, Esq.
In Montgomery I rememljer an instance of it, and I think in Winchester '

and in Bodmin too. 3d March 1863.

400. Earl oiRomncy.'] When you say outside the gaol, the sessions house may
be close adjoining to the gaol, and it may be that sort of case in which the
prisoners have been employed outside :

In the case that I allude to at Montgomery, the prisoners were allowed to go
quite outside the prison, and assist in bringing in coal<, and some of them ran
away in consequence ; and the same occurred at Bodmin.

401 . In those cases they were employed within what may be called the curti-
lage of the prison ?

It was close b}'.

402. It was merely for the purpose of doing the work of tlie prison ?
Yes.

403. Earl Cathcart.] Are we to understand you, that it is possible at this
moment, tiiat prisoners may be sent out of the prison upon messages ?

]\o, I have never myself known an instance of that kind.

404. Have there not been two instances of men escaping this year, in con-
sequence of their being employed in sweeping outside the prison door, and
taking advantage of the opportunity to escape ?

Yes.

405. Are you aware that it was frequently the practice at one time to send
prisoners out upon messages ?

I have heard so, but that was before my time ; I have never known an in-
stance of it within the last 20 years.

406. Earl of Ronmet/.] Do you think it is objectionable that out of 20 men,
one man should be selected occasionally to have the charge over the others ?

Yes, I do think that is objectionable.

407. Why?

I think that the prisoners feel less disposed to be subordinate to that sort of
authority, and it is difficult to know whether a man is deserving of the trust.

408. But in doing prison work, supposing men have to wheel up coals, one
man is put as a sort of foreman over them ?

I would never do that ; I would always put them under an officer's direction.
In some prisons they employ prisoners as cooks ; but I would never have that
done if I could help it, without having an officer over the prisoner.

409. Do you think that if the turnkeys and others in authority, seeing that a
man is behaving himself well, were to select him and put him forward over the
others in that way, that would produce no good effect in showing that their
good conduct is observed and respected, and that they thereby gain the appro-
bation of their superiors ?

I do not think, speaking theoretically, that it is likely to be so ; I have never
seen it in practice, but I know that the practice was discontinued in conse-
quence of its being thought very injurious.

410. Lord IFodehouse.'] You stated that you thought there might be some
advantage in allowing prisoners who are well behaved to assist in the education
of the other prisoners ; do you think that such an arrangement is consistent
with the proper punishment of those persons who would be so employed r

In the instances that I have known, and where I have thought it would be
desirable, the persons were not capable of doing hard labour, and were not
employed at hard labour, and therefore it would have been no alleviation of
their punishment to allow them to become schoolmasters to the other prisoners.

411. Do not you think that it would be a considerable alleviation to their
punishment for educated men to be allowed to be employed in the work of
instruction ?

It would give them a kind of satisfaction, but at the same time it would be a
very exalted satisfaction — it would not be an indulgence of a dangerous kind.
(37. 1.) E 2 412. Earl

■J

36 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKKN BEFORE THE

G. Perry, Esq. 4' 2. Earl Cathcart.'\ Besides which, the cases are so very few in which it
could be done r
3d March 1863. Yes.

413. Chair man. '\ Is not a relief granted to one prisoner v\'hich is not ex-
tended to another, an injustice to the others, and so far prejudicial to your
whole system ?

I do not think that that kind of indulgence, supposing it is an indulgence,
would be looked upon with envy by the other prisoners — they would be ex-
tremely grateful for tlie assistance rendered to them. I do not think they
would consider that the man who was put over them as an instructor was par-
ticularly indulged by that Act.

414. Earl of Malmesbury.'\ It would be rather a laborious office, would it
not ?

Yes.

415. Earl Cathcart?\ If they were employed in the governor's garden,
would not it be rather an indulgence r

Yes, but they are not permitted by law to do any work in the service of the
governor.

416. It is done sometimes, is it not?

It is done sometimes, but very rarely, or else it is denied. I have not myself
seen those instances often.

417. There was a case mentioned in your report, of a prisoner who was em-
ployed to nurse another sick prisoner and he caught the infection and died;
he was a sort of volunteer, I presume ?

Yes, he was a volunteer.

418. Chair man. '\ Is there not a practice in some gaols of giving gratuities to
prisoners ?

There is ; there are gratuities of two kinds, one of that kind which is per-
mitted by law, namely, the advance of a certain sum of money to carry the
prisoner home ; but in some other prisons (although very few) it is carried
further, and a man is rewarded for good conduct by having periodically a
star put upon his arm, until perhaps, if he is long enough in prison, he may
have seven or eight stars upon his arm, and at the end of his time, if he
has not forfeited any of those stars by subsequent bad conduct, he receives a
sum of money for each star. In Coldbath Fields he gets half-a-crown.

419. What is the maximum which it is possible for earnings of that descrip-
tion to amount to ?

If a man were two years in confinement he would get I /.

420. Duke of Marlborough^ Do you think that it is a sufficient inducement
to him to endeavour to maintain his good conduct r

It operates very well indeed. I am not sure that it is legal under the present
state of the law.

4'i I . Marquess of Salisbury.'] Is that a regulation in Coldbath Fields r
It is a regulation in that particular prison.

422. Has it been lately adopted?

I think it must be three or four years old.

423. Have you found any improvement result in the appearance and conduct
of thr prisoners in consequence ?

Yes, it has diminished the number of punishments very much, because a
prisoner is afraid of forfeiting his star by being put into punishment.

424. Duke oi Marlhnroucjh.'] Has the system of marks for good conduct been
brouglit within your observation in any other instance of prison discipline in
the (■; se of county prisons ?

Not any.

42'i. Earl Cathcart.] Has the Act of Parliament of last Session giving power
to give additional assistance to prisoners on leaving prison been acted upon ?
It Las been acted upon in very few prisons, I believe, as yet.

426. Probably

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 37

426. Probably that would be advantageous in the long run ? j, g. F,rry, Esq.
I think if that were done to any considerable extent, it would, perhaps, raise

an outcry among the ratepayers against the expense ; but it is done in Bir- 3d Mavcli i8(),3.
mingliam now : but then the Birmingham Prisoners' Aid Society was established "

before, and this Act was in some measure passed to assist that society.

427. Are you inclined to think that the Prisoners' Aid Society, being a
charitable institution, ought to be supported rather by voluntary subscriptions
than by an assessment upon the county rates ?

Yes, I think it ought.

428. Chairman.^ When you state that for good conduct a prisoner receives
so many stars, and for so many stars so much money, what do you mean by
good conduct ?

I mean only in a negative sense, that he has not been reported for ixny bad
conduct. There is no instance, that I am aware of, in any prison (I wish thei'e
were) where good conduct is substantively rewarded.

429. Good conduct in prison, in fact, is nothing positive ?
Good conduct in prison means avoiding reports and punishment.

430. But it involves no substantive act on the part of the prisoner ?
It doLS not.

431. Marquess of Salisbury.'] Have you known any instances of prisoners
wishing to merit approbation by being more industrious ?

Yes, many instances ; the mere love of approbation operates very strongly
upon them ; there is a great emulation as to the amount of labour that they
perform in many prisons.

432. Chairman.'] Is there not a wide difference between giving money for
.positive labour done b)^ a prisoner whilst he is in confinement, and money

given for the negative virtue of not committing any breach of prison rules r
There is a great difference in that, and in its moral effect also.

433. Is not the principle perfectly different ?
Yes, certainly.

434. Duke oi Marlborough.] Did I rightly understand you to say, that there
is great emulation among the prisoners as to the amount of work per-
formed ?

Yes, where that work is of a productive and valuable kind ; as, for instance,
in mat-making, and other things of that sort, the prisoners exert themselves ;
and are proud of being told that they have made the greatest number of mats
in the prison.

435. Does that feeling exist where the prisoner does not derive any ad-
vantage from the work ?

It does ; indeed they never receive any pecuniary advantage from it in
county and borough prisons.

436. Is it your opinion that productive labour is always preferable to un-
productive labour in prisons ?

I think it is ; I think its moral effect is better, besides the economical effect
of it.

437. Marquess of Salisbury.] Have you had any opportunity of judging how
far the reformation or pretended reformation of prisoners is real ?

I have been able to trace many instances myself, and have heard from
chaplains and other officers of prisons many more, where prisoners after their
discharge have got into employment, and have done extremely well afterwards,
and have not for many years, during which my observation has extended,
come back to prison.

438. What class of prisoners were those ?

Those very favourable cases were generally in agricultural districts, where
men commit small offences, and> their masters feel that they have been suffi-
ciently punished by being sent to prison, and they take them into their
employment again in some out of doors occupation after they are discharged,
and the men are grateful, and they do very well afterwards.

(37. 1.) E 3 439- Then

38 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G. Perry, Esq. 439. Then j'our observation does not apply to large towns r
, ,, , „^ Not so much so.

3d March 1863.

440. Or where they are liable to fall into bad company?

No ; the prisoners in towns have much greater ditficulty in getting emplo}'-
ment, partly because the great majority of servants are obliged to be in-doors
(their work being in-door work) ; and also, partly because men in the same
factories will not work with them. There is a very strong prejudice in the
minds of workpeople in towns against working with men who have been in
l^rison. I do not think there is the same prejudice in the country, as far as
my observation goes. I think that agricultural labourers liave no objection to
a man being employed as a carter, or what not, in the same employ as them-
selves, if he has been in prison. They look more charitably upon those things
in the country ; but in towns it is extremely difficult for men who have been
in prison to get into any employment.

441. Viscount £uer5/('j/.] But that does not apply equally to prisons under
the separate system and under the associated system r

Certainly not, equally ; but taking the separate system prisons in the rural
districts and those in towns, the prisoners on their discharge from the former
would get into employment much sooner than those discharged from the
latter.

442. There is less reluctance to employ a man who has been confined in a
prison under the separate system r

Yes, both in towns and in the country.

443. Earl CathcartS] But outward good conduct in prison is not any proof
of moral reformation, is it .'

Certainly not.

444. Marquess of Salisburij .'] Are not the best conducted prisoners very
often the worst criminals ?

Those who have been in prison many times learn to conform to the rules at
once, and they have very few reports against them. The men who are in for
the rirst time, and who are therefore less guilty probably than the others, are
more intolerant of control and more irritable, and more inclined to fall out
with the officers, and to get into trouble, than the old experienced hands who
have been in often.

445. Have you had any opportunity of judging which is preferable, a short
and severe confinement or a long confinement r

I think that confinement may ])e too long ; one great advantage which
was proposed to the public from the adoption of the system of separate con-
finement was that the sentences would be shorter, that much more good
might be effected in a given tinie by that system than by the old system, and
that therefore the sentences might be shorter, but I do not think that that is
very much the case, as far as my obsei'vation goes. There are as long sentences
passed now as there were in the time when tlie prisons were upon the asso-
ciated SA'stem. I tiiink that it is better to give a smart sentence at first than
to send a periron to prison just long enough to learn that it is not so terrible a
place as he expected. It is better to keep him there for some time at some
inconvenience to himself, and also for the purpose of instruction, especially if
he is young : but the system of control which is necessary in different i)risons
is very different, and the sentences required are very different also, because the
people who come into the London prisons ai'e a great deal more knowing in
crime tlian those in the country ; and many of the men in country prisons are
hartlly criminals in intent at all.

446. Lord Wodehovsie.'] May I ask what is the exact meaning of the expres-
sion which you have just used, "criminals in intent?"

I mean that they are not criminals by profession, but persons who have rather
been le:l to commit small robberies from the want of something just at the moment,
and not concerted robberies ; the men have seldom been associated with others
in their offences.

447. L^pon what experience do you found that opinion, because it would
seem to me that, generally speaking, the majority of crimes committed are by

persons

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 39

persons who are in the habit of thieving and not pui-suing any other j. G. Perry, Esq.

avocation ?

There is a very large class who begin as poachers, and get into idle habits, '^^ March 1SG3.
those idle habits lead to crime indirectly, by making it easier for them to
get the means of satisfying their desires by theft than by labour ; they get out
of the habit of labour, and they find that theft, even with all its risks, is
much better to their mind than going through a regular course of toil.
Those men, I mean, are mere thieves from idleness ; but in the towns it is
a regular trade to which people are educated.

448. What I understand you to mean is this, that you would divide criminals
into two classes — what may be called criminals by profession, and ci-iminals
from idleness.

Yes.

449. Marquess of SaU.sbttn/.] Does not the greater part of the crime in the
rural districts arise from the long score at the back of the beerhouse door?

Yes.

450. In your opinion, which part of the imprisonment does the prisoner feel
most deeply, the first part or after a certain period :

The first part generally.

45 1 . Prisoners I presume have told you that very often ?

Yes, they have ; and it is a very remarkable observation, especially with
regard to bo3's, that they will cry for a few days after they come to prison, and
be very much distressed, but afterwiirds they get as indifferent as the older
criminals.

452. Then they become hardened to it at last, and they become very indif-
ferent about it ?

Yes.

453. Is not that in a great degree the occasion of the preference which is
shown by vagrants to pass the winter months in gaol ?

Yes, I suppose it is ; it is quite a part of their system in the inclement part
of the year to go to prison.

454. Earl Cathcait.] It is commonly said that prisoners return to prison
because they like it, but that has not been your experience ?

No, I do not think so at all.

4.55. Do you think that when prisoners commit crime they think they will
be detected ; do not you rather think that it is the chance of impunity which
leads them on r

Yes ; no man takes into account the punishment which he will endure,
because he does not expect that he will be discovered.

456. Criminals generally hope to escape in some way, do they not ?
Certainly ; the idea that prisoners like coming to prison has originated from
the workhouse offences.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Thursday next,

One o'clock.

(37. 1.) E 4

[ 41 ]

Die Jovis, o"" Martii 1863.

LORDS PRESENT:

Duke of Maelborough. | Earl Cathcart.

Marquess of Salisbury. ! Earl of Ducie.

LoKD Ste^vakd. I Earl of Dudley

Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Malmesbury.
Earl of RoMXEY.

Lord WODEHOUSE.

Lord Lyveden.

THE EARL OF CARNARVON, in the Chair.

— — Evidence on

Prison Discipline.

JOHN GEORGE PERRY, Esquire, is again called in, and further examined, J. G.Perry, Esq.

as follows : , ,7~~T c,r

5ih March ;Sf)3.

457. Lord Steward.'] I think you stated to the Committee on Tuesday, that
you thought it better that one of the inferior officers or warders should be pro-
moted to the office of governor of a prison, rather than that a military officer,
inexperienced in the management of gaols, should be appointed to that office ;
and you stated that the warders were chiefly selected from amongst pensioned
soldiers and men of the labouring class in the neighbourhood ; are the Committee
to understand that it is your opinion that the experience gaint'd by men of that
class more than counterbalances the advantage arising from the superior education,
cultivated minds, and habits of command which military officers may be supposed
to possess ?

Tije pensioned soldiers whom I alluded to are seldom employed in county and
borough gaols ; persons in the neighbourhood are generally employed (I did
not mean to imjily that they were of the class of labourers), and I meant merely
to say that where an officer had served long in a gaol, and was qualified to take
the office, I thought he ought to be rather jjreferred ; because he is acquainted
with the discipline of the prison, or of prisons generally, and also because it
would be an encouragement to other good officers to see that they had a chance
of rising to the first appointment. But, cceicris paribus, supposing the two persons
had had equal experience, or study of the subject, I, of course, do not consider
that a man of inferior education would be preferable.

45 S. What I asked you was, whether you thought the experience acquired by
those men as warders counterbalanced the advantages of education, and so forth,
which are possessed by military officers?

1 think that their experience in the prison, and their habit of rule over those
below them (for many have been raised to be chief warders or deputy governors,
and have thus had the means of showing their fitness for positions of command),
would render them very fit for the higher office ; and there are a great many very
striking instances which I could name in the district over which I have inspection,
of officers who have risen from the ranks in that way, and who have made most
excellent governors.

4,)g. Earl Cathcart.] Is it not your opinion that it is very desirable that a
j)erson who is called upon continually to be in confidential communication with
the Visiting Justices should be a jierson with gentlemanlike feelings and views.-

That is an additional recommendation, no doubt ; but I do not know that it is
equal to the recommendation of diligence and knowledge of his duties, and, in

(37.2.) F feet,

42 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G. Perry, Esq. fact, it is not equal in value to the quality of condescenrling to look after the

i\l"~~h 8P work of tiie prisoners. A gentleman who has long been in a high position is

^^' '"^ ^ ^' very little likely to exert himself, and to take much pains in pushing the work of

the prisoners on, or in obtaining a sale for it, and so forth ; and in many respects,

therefore, a man of inferior position may be better.

460. Earl of Alahneshury,'] In. fact, you appear to prefer practical experience
to polished accomplishments ?
Yes, I do.

4(11. Chairman.^ We will proceed now to consider tlie question of hard
labour. The treadwheel, I presume, is one of the engines which is most in use
in prisons ?

Yes, it is, perhaps, the most in use ; although it has been discontinued in a
great many prisons, and superseded by trades and different forms of industrial
labour.

462. Can you put in 'any returns which will specify those prisons in which the
treadwheel is still in use, and those in which it is disused ?

Since I heard that the obtaining of information upon that point was likely to
be the desire of the Committee, I have made a rough return of it, which is not
fit at this moment to be put in, but from which I could answer any questions
which the Committee might wish to put to me.

463. Perhaps you will put it in at a later period of the inquiry r
Yes, I will do so.

464. Speaking generally, what are the number of working hours during
■which the treadwheel is in motion with reference to each individual prison ?

That would depend very much upon the size of the treadwdieel, and the number
of prisoners who may be sentenced to hard labour. Supjiosing that the tread-
wheel will hold 20 at a time, there will be 40 men employed ; that is, 20 on and
20 off, with the interval of rest ; and if there were only 40 prisoners in a gaol
sentenced to hard labour, they might work for six or eight hours a day ; but if
the number very far exceeds the space upon the treadwheel, of course they can
only work for shorter periods in proportion.

465. Can you state what is the case generally ?

I think, generally speaking, they work six hours at least, or perhaps sometimes
eight ; but it varies in tlie winter months and in the summer months on account
of the daylight.

466. Are those six and those eight hours subject always to the relief whicii
you just alluded to ?

Yes, always ; but in varying proportion.

467. In your opinion, is one-half of the time the proper relief which is
necessary r

It is quite enough.

468. Is it too much r

Judo-ing from the practice in some prisons, I should say that it is ; sometimes
they are off a quarter of an hour, but different men, according to the habits of
their iirevious lives, arc more or less qualified to perform the action of the tread-
wheel. One man who may have been employed in a sedentary occupation, such
as that of a shoemaker or a tailor, may be almost killed by that which is very easy
labour, and almost a pleasant exercise, to a vagrant who has tramped about the
country all his life, and who can walk his 30 miles a day.

469. But, taking the average of jjrisoners who work upon the treadwheel, do
you consider that a relief of one-half of the total time is necessary ?

Yes, I think, taking the average, it is necessary.

470. Earl of Dudley.'] Do you mean a cpiarter of an hour on and a quarter of

an hour oft"?

Yes, or 20 minutes on and 20 minutes off; the time varies in different prisons.

47 J . I suppose where the treadwheel has been done away with, and this hard
labt)ur does not exist, when a prisoner is sentenced to hard labour, you think it is
a mere form without any meaning of any kind 'I

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 43

In order to answer tliat question, one must commence by defining bard J. G. Pc.ry.Eiq.

labour. 1 do not tbink tbat tbe nature of tbe labour makes it hard so much as ,

tbe amount of labour performed. It may be hard labour to break stones, provided ^'^ ^larch 1863.
a very large amount of stone is required to be broken up in a day, or it may be
even hard labour to make sliirts, provided a great many hours are employed at it.
On the contrary, it may be very easy labour to work on the treadwheel, provided
persons are only on it for an hour or two in the day.

472. Cliairiiian.'] Generally, I understand from your answers that there is a
considerable discrepancy as to the number of hours which the men are employed
upon tbe treadwheel ■

Yes, necessarily so.

473- ^^ ill J^^ ^^ good enough to state what is the height of the steps in the
different treadwheels employed in the different prisons, or whether there is any
regular height ?

I have found some which differed a little from the mean, judging by my eye,
but I tbink the difference is very slight indeed ; they are made very much upon
the same models.

4. How many steps are there which are trodden in a minute ?
1 am hardly prepared at this moment to answer that question.

47.5. Are you prepared to say that there is a general arrangement as to the
number of steps on most of the treadwheels ?

No ; the same treadwheel will work differently at different times, according to
the number of persons on it, and the strength of the resistance. For instance, a
treadwheel which grinds corn, where the supply of com is very small, will work
more rapid! v with the same number of men than where the supply is large. On
the other hand, treadwheels which do no productive work at all, but which are
merely resisted by a spring, will work more rapidly or less rapidly according to
the number of persons who are placed upon the wlieel.

476. But in general are there the same number of steps to every wheel ?
Yes, generally 24.

477.. And in general are the steps of equal height r
i'es, generally eight inches.

478. What is the total number of steps, under ordinary circumstances, which a
prisoner ascends bv the hour ?

About 1,440.

479. (';m you state whether there are any fixed number of revolutions of the
wheel either by the liour or by the day in all prisons r

In most prisons they aim at a fixed number; but, as I have mentioned just
now, the deviations may be considerable under the circumstances which I
described, according to the greater or smaller resistance, and the greater or smaller
number of men upon the wheel.

480. Is the machinery in the construetion'of the wheels uniform as a general
rule?

No, not quite so ; some are better made than others; some have a jumping
motion, which indicates that the cogs are not equally well made.

481. Is the principle of construction the same r
Very much the same.

482. Does the action of the wheel, as applied to the prisoners, vary in duration,
either in summer or in winter, with regard to the rate of motion ?

J\0j I think not in the rate of motion,||but the duration of the labour varies.

483. Duke of Alarlborough.'] Does the amount of exertion required depend
upon the relative diameters of the wheel .-^

Not altogether; as those accustomed to the work wait for the step to come to
them, whereas the inexperienced prisoners raise their feet, as in ascending stairs.

484. The greater the diameter of the wheel the greater the leverage, and
consequently the greater the ease witli which it would be turned ?

Yes.

(37. 2.) K 2 4S5. Are

44 MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G. Perry, Esq. 485. Are you aware wliether, as n rule, the same diameter of wheels is o-enerallj
5th March 1863. adopted in all cases ?

^es, I think It IS generally five feet ; I think they have been copied one from

another, and there is scarcely any perceptible ditference in them.

4S6. Earl Calkcart.] Are you not aware that, in the rules of the Secretary of
State, it is laid down that there shall be no more than 12.000 feet, and that they
have never ])een able to carry out more than half of that, and that the meii
cannot stand it r

I am informed that at Cold Bath-fields prison each man performs 15 spells of
720 steps, making 10.800 steps in the day.

487. Is it your impression that tlie 12,000 feet was ever performed at any
time ?

I am told by the Governor that in the county prison of Worcester the number
is still greater, even amounting- to 12,240.

4S8. Chairman.] Are the majority of the treadwheels in your district applied
to any productive jmrpose ? '

"i es ; the majority of them are so applied, if we reckon among the productive
purposes the raising of water ; there are nine that are applied to the grinding of
corn.

48;;. Is there any difficulty, looking at the construction of the treadwheel, in
its being applied to the grinding of corn ?
None whatever.

490. Are there partitions on most of the wheels ?

"ies, there are now; when I was first acquainted with prisons, 20 years ago, it
was very uncommon to see them partitioned, but they have been gradually im-
proving in that respect, and there ai-o very few now which are not so, except in
the smaller and more insignificant prisons.

4ui. Do you believe that the partitions, accompanied with a moderate super-
vision on the part of a disciplinary officer or two, is sufficient to prevent commu-
nication between the prisoners ?

Yes, to any considerable extent.

492. Marquess of SaH4>ii7'ij.'\ You stated, did you not, that there is an incon-
venience with regard to grinding corn ; tliat at ditierent times the pressure of the
wluei is unequal ?

I did not mean to be understood as applying that only to the grinding of corn ;
but I mean that wlion wheels are ill-constructed, and the cogs are une(juai in
size, a jum|)ing motion takes place ; and with respect to the ra]U(lity or slowness
of the motion, that depends upon the degree of resistance, whether it be from
grinding corn, or from any other cause.

49.-;. Is iliL'rc not machinery in most well-conducted wlieels that would either
increase or diminish the resistance accordnig to the luimber of persons on the
wheel 'i

Yes, there is generally a lever which may be tightenod or otherwise when the
resistance of the stones or the pump is insufficient ; l)ut it cannot be expected that
that should be continually watched by an ofiicer, or that an officer should be
always competent to judge when it requires to be tightened.

494. Is not that regulated by the number of prisoners who are \mt upon tlie
wheel ■<"

Yes. I have said tluit that is one of the elements whieli determines the rate of
motion : the weight on the wheel and the degree of I'esistance.

495. Does it not make it a more equal ])unishment if the wdieel is employed
without any actual profit in the labour, than if it is ada])ted to grind corn ; and
does not that make it a more average amount of labour, and more ecpial in its
operation ?

I think that wheels that grind corn, if they are carefully watched and well sup-
plied with corn, work quite as evenly as any other.

49O Earl

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 45

406. Earl of Royviey.'] That would be the business of the milk'r, would it /. G. Perry, Esq.

not .'

Exactly so. 5th March .863

4917. .And lie could put the corn into a mill, lliougli loaded with prisoners,
just as easily as lie could do it into mills turned either by wind or water?
.- Yes.

498. Marquess o'i Salhlmry.'] If there is an absolute power of regulation where
no work is done, and there is not an absolute power of regulation where work is
done, of the two would not the more ocpial motion he where there is no work
done ?

It seems to me tliar, there is an aljsolute power of regulating it in either case;
either in tlie case of grinding corn, by keeping it equally supplied, or in the case
of mechanical resistance, by kee|iing it evenly screwed up.

409. Earl Cathcart.l There is a screw, is there not, which regulates the speed ?
Yes.

500. The motive ]))wer of the treadwheel is the weight of the prisoners upon
it, and not their exertion r

Just so.

501. Are you aware that in many instances the treadwheel has been given up
altogether as a means of punishment ?

Yes, in many instances.

.502. Do you think it is a desirable mode of infliction of hard labour ?
I do not ; I tliink it is very undesirable, on account of the inequality of its
operation upon different prisoners.

503. Doctor Trail, the Professor of Medical Jurisprudence in the University of
Edinburgh, has lately written a work upon the subject of medical jurisprudence,
in which he expresses this opinion. He first states that the treadwheel is a con-
trivance by ^^■hich united weight puts the wheel in motion; and he objects to it
njion the same grounds that you do, namely, with regard to its inequality ; he
says it is nothing to an active man, but to the sedentary it is a grievous punish-
ment, giving intolerable pains in the legs anrl tlie spine ; do you concur in that
opinion ?

I do entirely.

504. Then he goes on to say that it is an exceedingly cruel ]mnishment to
inflict upon females in regard to the female constitution ; that it induces female
complaints, such as prolapsus, and other complaints of that kind ?

No doubt ; but it has been discontinued entirely in my district with regard to
females.

505. Earl of Dvdley.'] Did not I rightly understand you to say that you think
that it ought not to be done away with I

No ; I think it is a very bad and unequal mode of punishment.

506. But you stated that in some prisons it had been done away with, and did
you not add that you thought it ought not to have been done away with ?

I am an advocate for doing away with it altogether Avhen its place can be
supplied by industrial labour.

507. Earl Cathcart.] Do you not think that a prisoner gets so habituated to
the use of the treadwlieel, that it becomes a very slight punishment to him r

Even from the beginning it is a very slight punishment to those who have been
accustomed to it.

508. Did you ever hear that some prisoners dislike the Sunday for this reason,
that they are without the treadwheel on that day r

I never heard of it ; it has never come within my own observation.

509. Chairmnn.'] Are the Committee to understand you that one of your
objections to the use of tlie treadwheel is the inequality of the amount of punish-
ment which it imposes in different prisons r

No, I meant as regards diflerent prisoners. Allowing for accidental deviation
(37.2.) F3 it

46 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G. Pernj, Esq. jt is much the same in different prisons, but I mean that it is a much more severe

, ,, T „„ punishment to some individual prisoners than to others.
5th March 18O3. ^ "^

510. In that case is there not the same inequality in almost everj'^ punishment

that you can impose ?

No, because in other punishments the labour of tlie prisoner can be proportioned

to his powers.

511. Earl of Dndley.~\ Why may that not be done here ?
Because they all work alike upon the tread wheel.

,51l'. What is the gaoler for l)ut to see what a man is capable of, and propor-
tioning- his work accordingly ?
1 mean while they are at work.

513. There would be very few men who are not capable, by their constitution,
of going on to the wheel at all in performiug their sentence ?

But the question is, who is to be the judge ; the gaoler cannot judge, on
account of the very great dithculty there is of distinguishing between true and
feigned complaints on the part of the prisoners.

.514. Still every gaoler has eyes in his head, and he sees exactly how a man is
built, and he knows what is his general character when lie comes in, whether he
is a man such as you speak of, or whether he is a man wlio has been accustomed
to sedentary work ?

The surgeon would have to judge of that. I do not think that you could trust
an uninstructed gaoler.

.515. But, generally speaking, our gaolers are not uninstructed, are they?
I mean uninstructed in medicine ; the surgeon would examine the state of tiie
prisoner's circulation, which the gaoler would not understand.

S 16. He has the surgeon by his side to help him in such judgment, has he not ?
The surgeon is not always present; but when he is wanted, he would be sent for.

517. Earl oi Romney.~\ In a gaol where the sentence of hard labour has to be
carried nut uj)on the treadwheel, if the keeper were to exercise any discretion,
such as is now suggested, would he not be violating the rules of the prison ?

Yes; and he would be encouraging complaints on the part of the prisoners,
which it would be very difficult to scrutinize exactly.

5 I 8. Mould he not be actuallv assuming a discretion which he has no right to
do .'

Certainly, under the present law.

,5 1 q. Earl of Dudley.'] Does not the gaoler of every prison exercise that dis-
cretion every day or hour of his life ?
Yes, by the surgeon's recommendation.

.520. If the surgeon is not present, does not he take it upon himself to take a
man off the wheel if he thinks him incapable of performing the work, and there-
fore is not tiiat a discretion which is exercised by every gaoler every hour in
which the mill is going I

1 think he does sometimes ; but he cannot always judge of the necessity.

521. Earl Cathcart.] You mean to say that it is exceptional where indulgences
are given to [jrisoners ?
Yes.

52'2. Supposing you were to make the gaokn- a sort of dictator, and to put it
into his power to administer a harder punishment, or a less severe punishment,
you would be giving him the authority of a ju(lg(>, would you not?

Yes; I think it would be vcry^objectionabe, and could not be carried out prac-
tically.

523. Are you aware that at this moment the surgeon has not the power of
decreasing a' ration, but he has the jiower of incnasing it .'

^'cs, except in the case of sickness. With regard to a question which was
put to me a short time since, I should like to say, that I liave repeatedly
examined men who have complained of their inability to work upon the wheel,

and

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 47

and wbo had not been believed, and in some instances I have found very advanced ./. G. Perry, Etq.
disease of the heart in those men.

524. Earl of Dudkj/.'] Where was the surgeon all this time ? '

Probably the case had not been brought before him.

525. But you state that the man complained?

Yes, to the warders, and thoy would consider that he was shamming, and wished

to avoid the \\ ork.

•

526. Karl Cathcart.'] Is not shortness of breath, in going upstairs, a great
symptom of heart complaint, and a most alarming one ?

It is one of the earliest symptoms. A man with the smallest disease in
his heart, \\ orking on the tread-wheel for a quarter of an hour, would come
off with a very rapid pulse, but before the surgeon could see him his pulse
might have subsided, and the surgeon might not recognise the source of his
complaint.

527. Earl of D«,/%.] But the gaoler would naturallv send for the surgeon at
the right moment, if he was not present, when the man was at work ?

If he were to do so, the surgeon might be absent.

528. Does not the surgeon, when he is called in, and declares that the man is
not capable ol the hard labour which is imposed upon him, virtually free him from
any more ?

Ves, he does.

529. As a rule, through your district, do you find that there are very many-
men who have sufti'red from being compelled to work upon the wheel ?

Yes, 1 have seen them several times.

530. Are there many men who have really suffered bodily pain from being com-
pelled to work upon the wheel ?

Undoubtedly. I have seen such cases.

531. You do not tell me that there are manj'^ of them r

Yes, I have seen many of them ; but I am speaking now from an experience of
20 years. I do not mean to say that they are cases that I meet with every day.

532. Earl Cathcart.'] Are you aware that a number of men are never put upon
the wheel at all, because of their physical incapacity for that species of labour ?

Yes ; and in their case the sentence of hard labour is virtually abrogated.

^■^2>- Are you not aware that in military prisons every man before he is
employed upon shot-drill is examined previously, to ascertain whether he is fit for
labour I

Yes, I have no doubt that it is so ; and in common prisons also.

534. Would there be any difficulty in applying the same principle in civil prisons,
and subjecting every man to previous examination, to ascertain whether he is fit
for labour ?

That is done already. AVhen a prisoner comes in, he is always examined by the
surgeon, who is bound to make a report in writing as to any disease which he may
have brought in with him ; as to the state of his health on admission, and whether
he is fit for labour.

535. Duke of J\Iarlborou(//i.] With regard to this last question, how is it then
that cases are found to occur in which a prisoner may have a disease not known to
the governor of the prison, and for Avhich the surgeon is not called in to
pronounce upon it af the moment, and therefore he may receive injury by the hard
labour '(

The symptoms of disease of the heart in its incipient stages are very obscure,
and they do not nuuiilest tliemselves always when the prisoner is in a state of rest;
a prisoner may have, for instance, fat deposited upon the heart, which can hardly
be called a disease, but yet it would render him incapable of that labour without
the risk of i)roducing more serious disease as a sequel. So that as the men on
their admission are examined by the surgeon when they are in a state of rest, and
the exi)eriment is not made of first putting them on the tread-wheel to see
whether it unduly accelerates their respiration and the pulsation of their heart,
incipient disease may be very easily overlooked.

536. ^Do you think that it has so happened that there are cases of frequent
(37. 2.) F 4 occurrence

48 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G.Perry, Esq. occurrence v.ithin your !:nowledg-e where disease has been as it were brought out

by means of labour upon the tread-wheel ?

5tli March 1863. ■ I have no doubt about it at all.

.537. In frequent cases ?

Yes, there have been many such cases that have come to my knowledge, and
therefore 1 infer that they must be very numerous ; because as I do not watch the
treadwheel in any particular prison, and can only speak from my knowledge at
the time that I hapjien to visit it, if I discover several cases, I infer that there
must be many.

538. Loj'd Steward.] Are the Committee to understand you to state that, in
those prisons in which the usual form of administering hard labour is the tread-
wheel, no other form exists by which hard labour could be administered to
prisoners who are unfit to be put upon the treadwheel ?

No, I do not mean that.

5S9- What I understood you to say was this, that when a man was unfit for
hard labour on the treadwheel, the hard labour in his case was virtually abrogated r

Yes, that is so in the case of persons very decidedly unfit. For instance, if a
man on his admission is discovered to have disease of the heart, or a bad rupture,
or anything of that kind, they would not put him to any kind of severe labour.

540. Is there no means by which he could be employed, such as picking oakum,
or breaking stones, or anything of that kind ?

Yes ; that brings me to the very point upon which I wished to speak ; I was
speaking of men who on their admission are found decidedly incapable of labour.

541 . Earl of Dudley. 1 What is there beyond the treadwheel "

There are many other occupations, any one of which, as I said just now, may
be called hard labour, provided it is inflicted in sufficient quantity ; picking oakum,
for instance ; if a man is obliged to jiick a large quantity of oakum in a day it
becomes hard labour.

542. But how can you compel him to do it ?
By punishing him if he does not do it.

543. "i'ou can compel him upon the wheel, because he must do a certain number
of revolutions, but how can you compel him to pick a certain quantity of
oakum r

You can compel him to do his oakum picking, or mat making, or whatever it
may be, by depriving him of his food, and putting him in a dark cell if he
refuses.

544. That very food being only sufHcient to keep him in health?

Yes, but for a few days he may, without danger to his health, be put into a cell
and deprived of a part of his Ibod, being under the daily observation of the
surgeon.

545. Do not they sometimes persist in their obstinacy in spite of the puuish-
men t ?

Yes, there is no question that an obstinate man will sometimes do so.

546. Then it conies back to my other question, that the treadwheel is the only
forced hard labour ?

No, I do not say that ; on the contrary, I say that any labour is hard which the
man is barely able to do.

547. You have just said that you cannot comj)eI him to ilb it ?

It now and then happens that a man is so obstinate that he will endure the
continued privation of his food rather than do the work ; but those are exceed-
ingly rare instances.

048. Lord Steward.'] You cannot say that in the supposed case hard labour
is altogether abrogated ?

No ; I only say tliat it is virtually abrogated in the case of those who are quite
incapable of hard labour.

549. Are there many cases in which a man is unfitted to pick oakum, or break
stones, or lal)i)ur of that kind?

No; but I think that the misunderstanding of my meaning arises from the

want

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 49

want of a true definition as to what is hard labour; some people regard those J.G.Perry, Esq.
things only as hard labour in prisons which are different from the hard labour — -

])t>rformod by persons out of doors; I do not agree with them, but there is a 5tti March 1863.
very general ojjinion that unless people are put to work upon the crank mill or
the treadwheel, they really do no hard labour; I do not agree with that,
because I believe that any kind of labour may be made severe by the amount
that is required to be performed.

550. Duke of Marlhorovffh.] Your definition of hard labour would be con-
tinued labour ?

Yes, for a certain number of hours.

551. Earl (■athcart.'] With regard to mat making and paper bag making, and
those sorts of light labours, do not they usually, as a matter of practice, come
ratlier under the head of prison pastimes than hard labour?

Paper bag making certainly does, but mat making is very severe labour, espe-
cially the weaving of matting.

.-,52. As carried out in prisons, does not it come more under the head of pas-
time than of hard labour?

I certainly think not, as it is carried out for instance in the Coldbath Fields
prison, and in the Wakefield prison, and iu many others that I could name where
a stij)ulat(^d amount of labour is performed by the prisoners, in which prisons it is
Aery severe labour indeed; but where they are merely called u})on to occupy their
time in doing anything, then no kind of labour is severe.

553, Earl of Dudlejj.'] Except the wheel?
That is not severe to many prisoners.

5,54. Duke of Marlborougli.^ To bring back the subject to the treadwheel
again, have you ever known any cases oi' rupture produced by it ?

A ju'isoner with a rupture is now never put to it. I do not think that there
has been such an insiance in my knowledge for these 10 or 15 years of a man
having been put upon the wheel who has been previously ruptured ; and as to the
wheel being capable of producing a rupture, although it cannot be denied that
any hard labour of that kind might produce it in a person very much predisposed
to it, I have never seen such an instance.

555. Eavl of Da(Ueij.\ You liave never known rupture produced bv the wheel:
No.

.550. You have known it developed by it, but not produced by it?
Just so.

5 -,7. Duke of Marlborough.]^ Have you ever known a case of rupture developed
by the wheel ?

I have known it very much iccrease<l by it.

55S. That is to say, although the prisoner had been subjected to previous
examination by the surgeon, still the surgeon had not been able to detect the
rupture at the outset of his confinement, and that rupture has been subsequently
developed by the action of the whci 1 ?

Either it was not detecteti, or the surgeon thought that, it beinu' very trifling,
it was no obstacle to the prisoners being put upon the wheel ; but such cases
have not occurred, I think I may safely say, in my district for the last 15 years.

559. Earl Cathcart.'] What is sujiposed, in medical statistics, to be the number
of ruptured persons; do you know the per-centage at all?

I cannot tell the numl)er, but it is very large in that class of life.

560. Earl of A'o»««fy.] Do not you think that the most ordinary avocations
of men out of doors are more likely to produce rupture than the treadwheel?

Yes. Stooping to lift weights frequently occasions rupture.

561. Take the case of sailors, masons, carpenters, and all that class of men
who have to lift weights, is not their occupation more likely to produce rupture
than the treadwheel ?

Sailors are very subject to it, because they use great exertion sometimes in a
bent position of the body.

,562. And masons also ? Yes?

(37.2.) G

50 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G Pcrrn, Ei,q. Yes, they are all liable to it ; and more liable to it from their ordinary employ-
5th March 1863 i^ents than from the tread wheel.

563. Earl Cathcart.'] Do not you suppose that picking up heavy shot from

the ground is exceedingly liable to cause rupture r

Very much so ; it is exactly the jiosition of the body that is favourable to
the production of rupture.

564. Duke of Marlborough^ You have mentioned some objections to the use
of the tread wheel of a physical character, such as rupture in some cases, and disease
of the heart in others ; have you any other objections of a physical character to
the use of the treadwheel ?

No. I think those are the physical injuries most likely to be aggravated by it ;
there are minor effects, such as pain in the limbs and in the back ; but then, if a
man had very severe attack of pain in the back from lumbago, which is not at
all uncommon, he ought to be taken off, and he would be taken oft' the wheel
immediately.

565. You are obliged in that case, are you not, to trust to the prisoner's word
that he has a pain in the back?

He would be examined by the surgeon, who would satisfy himself.

^66. Would the surgeon detect from any outward appearance whether the man
had lumbago in his back ?

His mode of walking would often betray a fraud if he attempted it.

567. Earl oi Dudley.'] Is it not the commonest possible thing for them to plead
pain, and to try to avoid the wheel ?

Very common, and, therefore, as it is so difficult to detect it, it is very probable
that some real cases are overlooked or discredited, as well as some feigned cases
admitted.

56S. Duke oi Marlborough.'] Does the use of the treadmill involve actual pain
to some of the prisoners, not because of any disease existing in them, but from
their being rather of a weaker constitution than others ?

Yes, from their being unaccustomed to walking they have the most intolerable
cramps in the legs occasioned by it.

569. Earl of Dudley.] Do not these wear off after they have become habituated
to the exercise .-

It would take some time to habituate men of sedentary habits to it.

570. Duke oi Marlborough.] Do you know anything to recommend the use of
the treadwheel in a sanitary jjoint of view in giving exercise to the prisoners ?

No, I do not.

571. Do you think that the exercise which they obtain upon the treadwheel
is not of a character to materially benefit their health, or stand in lieu of other
exercise which they would have had, had they been in a condition of liberty :

There are some men who perform their work very easily, who would find the
treadwheels a very salutary exercise, just as walking up hill would be ; but, to
the majority, I do not think it is at all so.

572. Earl Cathcart.] Is not the treadwheel house often very otfensive from
tlie foul air and the perspiration of the prisoners ?

Yes, frequently so.

573- In that case, the exercise in an unwholesome atmosphere could udt jiossibly
have a salutary effect r
Certainly not.

574. Earl of llovmcy.] That is not an argument against the treadwheel, but
against having an unwholesome house to work in ?

Yes.

575. Marquess of ia//5^vf7-_j/.] Is it not the case that those places are always
open at the back, or have windows?

They are often enclosed.

576. Earl of Maltntsbiiry.] Are the Committee to understand that you object
to the treadwheel ?

1 do object to it.

577- And

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 51

.577. And that you would wish to abolish its use ? j-_ q^ Perry, Esq.

I should.

5th March 1863.
.')78. Earl of Z)M(//t'3/.] Will you state shortly why you object to it ? ,

I object to it on account of the inequality of its operation, on account of

its injurious effect upon the health of many of the prisoners, and on account also

of its being, when unproductive, a waste of labour which might be better

bestowed.

579. Then the Committee are to understand that you object to it because it is
unequal in its operation, and sometimes injurious to the health "r

Yes.

580. Duke of Marlborough.] Do you object to the treadwheel in any moral
point of view as regards the prisoners ; do you believe that the eifect upon the
minds of the prisoners of feeling that they are employed in this particular kind
of labour which is supposed to be a degrading kind of labour, and is sometimes
also unproductive, has an irritating effect upon the mind, and rather tends to
keep up that species of irritation than to make them more open to any better
influences which one might wish to bring about whilst they are in prison?

I have no doubt whatever that the prisoners more cheerfully devote themselves
to severe labour when they believe that they are doing good in some way, not
only to themselves but to others. The moral effect of that irritation of mind
which is produced by all kinds of labour which is unproductive, and therefore
which is interpreted by the prisoner merely as inflicted for the sake of punish-
ment, is very bad, by keeping up an irritation against the authorities, and in that
way opposing itself to the reformation of the prisoners.

581. Earl Cathcart.] Will you read to the Committee a short portion of your
last Report to the Secretary of State upon that subject, in which your deliberate
view is expressed in writing ; the passage I refer to, is at page 6 of the introduc-
tory letter to the 27th Report ?

" The advance which has been progressively taking place in the substitution
of productive labour for that which was merely punitive, has been attended with
all the beneficial results anticipated by those who had the best means of forming
an opinion on tlie subject. Besides the general amelioration of character obser-
vable in prisoners trained to habits of productive industry to which they had been
previously u!)accustomed, subordination has been, so much better maintained, that
corporal punishment for prison offences has almost entirely ceased iu prisons on
the separate system ; except in those in which hard-labour crank mills, grinding
nothing, continue to take the place of employments of a useful character. It is
instructive to contrast in the returns on corporal punisliment, presented to Parlia-
ment iu the Sessions of I860 and 1861, the 136 floggings inflicted for obstinate
resistance to discipline, in the prisons of Salford, jNIanchester, and Wandsworth,
in which unproductive crank laljour is resorted to, with the aggregate number of
four such punishments which have taken place in tliose of Liverpool, Wakefield,
and Holloway, in the same period ; the discipline in those last-named, being con-
ducted without recourse to any but useful industry." Perhaps I may add, that
I am entirely of the same opinion now that I was when I wrote that passage.

582. Chamnan.l There is another form of punishment, is there not, which
sometimes is concurrent with the treadwheel, and sometimes apart from it, which
is known by the name of cranks, and which is common in many gaols ?

Yes.

5S3. There are tAvo forms of crank commonly in use ; one the cellular cran k
or a crank which grinds nothing but air, and the other, a crauk with one long
shaft or bar, at ■\\hich many prisoners may be employed at the same time?

Yes.

.584. Can you state whether there is any difference in the degree of hard
labour imposed hy tlie two cranks :

Tlie crank which your Lordship alludes to first, is what is called the hard-
labour crank, which grinds nothing ; in fact, the labour there is regulated gene-
rally by a screw or by a Aveight, and therefore, according to the tightness of the
screw or the amount of the weight, the labour would be increased." With regard
to the other kind of crank, that is generally applied to pumping water. The

(37.2) g2 labour

52 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G. Perry, Eiq. labour imposed by the hard-labour crank may be nil ; it may amount to nothing

more than the force required to turn the handle, or it may be made intolerable

5th March i 3- by increasing the tightness of the screw ; therefore it is impossible to conijiare
that with the otlier kind of labour.

585. The amount of pressure is optional; in point of fact at the discretion of
the governor, is i t not 'I

Yes.

586. Does the governor or the surgeon superintend tlie amount of pressure
which is applied by means of the screw ?

I think the governor or tlie warders attend to that.

5S7. Is it graduated to what is supposed to be the strength of each individua
man ?

Yes, it is pretended to be so; it cannot be done very exactly.

588. In general, is there an index in siglit of the prisoner?

Sometimes it is in sight of the prisoner, and sometimes outside tlie celi.

,589. Does that index register the amount of Mork done, and the time in whicli
it is done ? •

Yes, it registers the number of turns since the index was set to zero.

.iQO, Do you think it is desirable that it should be in the sight of the prisoner?

I think the instrument so very objectionable in every respect, tliat I do not
think it would make it tolerable to make any chan^e in it ; i think the whole
principle of it is objectionable, and it has bt en found so, and has been discon-
tinued in a great many prisons.

50 1. Are the Committee to understand that you are now alluding to the
cellular crank 1

Yes, that is the only nne that I am speaking of; there is no index to the
other.

502. Do you see any objection to the use of that crank as a punishment '-
I do see very great objection to it.

593. On whar, ground?

Fiist, that it is merely harassing, that it is unproductive, and merely intended
to inflict suffering, which, ior the reason I mentioned just now, leads to irritation
of mind and insubordination and breach of rules, as it did in the Leicester and
Birmingham prisons, which formed the subject of an inquiry by a special Com-
mission, the results of which inquiry have led to its being discontinued iu mo-t
prisons since that time.

.-'",94. It is not at all events free from the objection of inequality ; is it not per-
fectly possible to graduate each of those cellular cranks to a precise scale, and to
the strength of the individual ?

That may l)e done undoubtedly, if the strength can be ascertained, and if the
person who regulates it is endowed with sufficient power of observation and suffi-
cient humanity.

595. Must you not in all cases leave a certain amount of discretion both to the
governor and to the surgeon, and must you not trust that I hey will be n'.en of
humanity and discretion ?

Yes ; you must in all kinds of labour, iuit in this kind of labour tlie power of
secretly or inadvertantly inflicting an additional amount of labour is so great, that
it ought not to be trusted in the hands of the warders.

.596. You say that it ought not to be trusted in the hands of the \varders ; r.re
you aware that in the most of those cellular cranks there is a key uhich eiiahks
^ the governor or the surgeon, or one person alone, to regulate the machine, %\ hicli

places it entirely beyond the control of any chance warder :

Yes ; but the result of it is, that it is either made so easy of performance
that a child might turn tlie handle, or if it is not so, it is made so severe as to
lead to resistance on the jiart of the prisoner, or to injury to his health. If it leads
to resistance, it leads to a great amount of jjunishment, and as has been shoMn in
some instances, even to suicide. 1 am not aware that the surgeon ever assists in

regulating the cranks.

597. I understand

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 53

597. I understand you on the other htind to express a decided preference for ./. G. Pen-,/, Es-i.
those cranks wliich are worked bv means of a common shaft ? —

Yes. ' jtl» March 1863.

598. Are most of those of one uniform construction?

No ; they may be divided under two general heads, one in which all the Ijandles
are so fixed to the crank, that whatever power may be exerted by the individual
prisoners, tlie handle Avili still continue to follow the same gyrations, whether a
great deal of force is put to the work, or no fcrce at all. In others it is so con-
trived that if a person fails in using a fair amount of labour in turning the crank,
the handle falls back upon him, as it were, and clicks, so that the officer who is
su[)erintending can tell whether the prisoner is neglecting- his duty or not. The
last-mentioned constrnclion may be ver}'^ well seen in the prison at Wandsworth,
M'here it was first employed, and it has been imitated in several other pris'jus by
my recommendation,

5q9. Is that Appold's patent crank ?
No ; that, is a hard-labour crank.

600. Duke of Marlborough.] You stated, did you not, that the crank of which
you have been speaking, was adopted at Wandsworth in consequence of vour re-
commendation :

No; it was first employed, I believe, in Wandsworth, and afterwards adopted in
other prisons by my rtcouiniendation, I having pointed out in my report the
advantage of it, and referred the magistrates to Wandsworth to see it in opera-
tion.

601. Did I not understand you to state just now, that yr>\\ considered the whole
system of crank labour as entirely objectionable ?

I am not now speaking of the annroductive hard-labour cranks, but of those
cases where crank labour is applied to a single shaft, for the purpose of raising water,
to v/hich I do not object.

60J. Chairman.'] Are you not of opinion, with regard to that first class of
cranks to which you have alluded, that there is this serious objection, that one pri-
soner may shirk the work which fairly belongs to him, and transfer it, perhaps to
his next neighbour, who may be more willing to work r

Yes ; and therefore I have always recommended that an alteration should be
made in the wheel, so as to make it work upon the principle just described.

603. Assuming that you have a treadmill at work in any prison, and that the
system of hard labour is framed upon the use of that treadmill, is it not desirable,
in your opinion, also, to have cranks concurrently with the treadmill ?

I do not understand why they should both be required.

604. Does not the crank call one set of muscles into play just as the treadmill
calls another?

Yes, exactly so ; and, if it were a mere gymnasium, it would be an advantage to
have that diffeience.

605. Is it not an advantage to have a variety of hard labour?
Yes, it is.

606. Earl Cathcart.] With regard to a modification of the crank, do you know
of the gravel hard-labour machine; a crank in which there is a pan of gravel out-
side, and a fan revolves in tiiat by means of the crank r

I have not seen them in use ; I have heard of them.

607. If those cranks are used, and they are used in many prisons, by putting in
a little more gravel, you might almost grind a prisoner to death, might you not :

Yes.

608. Is what occurred in BirmingJiam gaol, not very long ago, within your recol-
lection, in which some very cruel i)uuishinents were inflicted, v^hicli were entirely
unknown for a long time to the visiting justices and to the Crown inspector there ?

Yes.

009. In your particular district there have been two cases of cruelty which you
have reported ; at least one case particularly, with regard to a prisoner who was put
in a dark cell, and who was left there for a long time upon very insufficient diet r

(37.0.) G 3 Yes ;

54 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G. Perry, Etj. Yes ; but not as intentional cruelty ; rather as the result of an injudicious regu-

— lation.
5th March 1863. Q^^^ YQ^ mention tliat circumstance in your report, do vou not:
Yes.

61 1. And you also mention the circumstance of a prisoner having been flogged
under circumstances in which the provisions of the Act of Parliament were not
complied with ?

Yes, I remember such a case.

612. With regard to one question which was asked you just now, about the
stitTness of the cranks ; a drop or two of oil might make all the difference, might
it not, between their working stiffly and their w^orking easily ?

Yes, it might be so.

613. I mean that the neglect of cleanliness with reference to oiling the cranks
might make them stiH'er than they were originally intended to be ?

Yes, if they work upon the plan of a spindle.

6 1 4. Cliairma)i.'\ You object, as I uiiderstand by your answers to the questions
which have been put to you, to the inequality of labour wliich is imposed upon
tlie different prisoners by the hard-labour cranks ?

I have stated that it would be possible to exactly regulate it to a man's force,
but that practically I believe it would never be done ; first, from the difficulty of
ascertaining Avhat his powers are ; and, secondly, from the want of attention on
the part of the officers.

615. Does not the objection of inequality lie against almost every form of hard
labour which can be devised ?

It applies less to tliat kind of hard labour which involves manufactures of any
kind, because it is easy for a person who is constantly observing a prisoner to see
whether he does his best in producing, we will say, a certain amount of cloth by
weaving, or a certain number of mats.

616. Is not inequality of labour produced by inequality of age, and by inequality
of stature, and inequality of physical strength .'

Certainly ; but a slight man may be much more capable of continued labour
than a stout bulky man.

617. But will not the amount of hard labour, if you have any system of hard
labour at all, vary very much with the various conditions of health and strength
•whicli belong to each prisoner ?

Yes ; and for that reason I should prefer all those kinds of labour which can
be most certainly regulated with reference to a man's power.

618. Do not those conditions enter even into trades?

Certainly ; if you mean to ask whether different persons are more or less
capable of exercising different kinds of trades, there is no doubt of that ; but
I think it is easier for an observer to tell whether a man does his best in the
amount of any product which he makes, than to judge whether he does his best in
turning a crank ; a man may complain, and may be thought merely, to use a
prison jdirasi', a malingerer ; but when a man is emi)loyed in productive industry
it is easy for anybody who is acquainted with that industry, to tell whether
he is doing his best in performing it.

619. But as far as mere facility of perceiving that is concerned, is not the
number of revolutions wliich arc marked on the index the most obvious test of
whether a man is doing his work or not doiuff it ?

Yes, hut the question is whether he does it with facility ; one man, much more
capable than another, may make a much smaller number ol' revolutions in a day
thnn tlie other, because the weak man ujay have more zeal and anxiety to please
the authorities than the strong man, and therefore the weak man may work
himself to death, while the strong man is doing very little labour.

620. Duke of MarUwrotif//i.'\ Vou think, therefore, that it is easier to ascer-
tain whether a prisoner is actually doing his duly in the work which is set him to
do in objects of productive industry than in such things as mechanical appliances,
sucii as crank labour or treadwheel labour?

I do.

G21. And that if there be any inequality in regard to strength in those des-
criptions

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 55

criptions of labour, as there must be in difFerent prisoners, that would be corapen- j. q, perry Eta

sated by allowing each a fair amount of work to be done according to what each '

prisoner is able to do r 5th March 1863.

That is my opinion ; I see that practically carried out every day in prisons

where industrial employments prevail.

(322. Earl Calhcart.] The detection of malingering is one of the most difficult
questions in medical jurisprudence, is it not r
Yes, it is so.

623. Chairman^] What is your opinion of stone breaking as an employment for
the prisoners?

I have no objection to it.

624. Do you consider it to be a good employment ?
Yes.

625. Does it not keep the prisoners out in the open air?
They are generally under sheds.

626. Earl Cat/icart.] You have already stated in your report, have you not
that it does not pay for the haulage }

Yes ; that is frequently the case.

627. What is your opinion with regard to picking oakum?

That it is a very useful employment to those prisoners who, either from their
being in prison for a very short time, or from any other cause, are incapable of
learning anything better.

628. Is there not a certain amount of discrepancy in many gaols in the nature
of the lab'-ur which is imposed, when you take into account the differences in
the quality of the oakum ; is not the quality of the oakum which is picked,
different in different (raols -

Very ditierent.

629. Does not that create a very wide discrepancy in the amount of labour
which picking oakum is supposed to represent ?

It does ; and it leads to an allowance beinp; made by the authorities. No
governor or warder would expect a prisoner to pick the same quantity of junk, as
the ro])e is called before it is picked, if it were of a very hard kind, that he would
if it were of a softer and more manageable kind.

630. Then are the Committee to understand from you, that as a general rule
the hard labour which is imposed in the different prisons, both in respect of the
treadwheel, in respect of the cranks, and in respect of picking oakum, is pretty
nearly the same, or that it varies very greatly ?

The labour of the treadwheel varies in its effect on different persons and in the
time for which it is continued ; and there is sometimes a difficulty in getting
oakum to be picked, and more frequently in getting the governor to exert himself
to buy it. It depends very much upon the activity and zeal of the governors in
the different prisons, as to what amount of productive labour is performed by the
prisoners ; the governor must exert himself to obtain the work to be done.

631. \ou are, therefore, of opinion that there are very wide discrepancies in
the amount of hard labour as represented by the treadwheel, by the crank, and by
picking oakum, in different prisons ?

Yes, I am. 'J here is a very great difference, but that difference is not a necessary
ingiedient in the system ; it would be possible to make prisoners in all the oaols
pick nearly the same quantity of oakum under the same circumstances —that is to
say, supposing it to be as easily picked ; but, as I have said, there is often not
enough to keep them employed.

^32. Are you of opinion that it would be possible to reduce those different
varieties of hard labour to something like a common and uniform standard
tliroughout the different prisons in your district ?

There must always be a great deal of discretionary power left to the authorities
after all rules are made.

^33- Would it not be perfectly possible to provide that the construction of
every crank and every treadwheel sliould be uniform ?

The construction might be uniform, but the labour imposed would not be
uniform, for the reasons I have mentioned.

(37. 2.) G 4 034. Would

56 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J.G.Pcrry, E-,q. 634. 'VVoiild you iiot simplif)' to n "reat extent the conditions of the problem

.i Ai T Qc„ if "^'ou secured a complete uniformity in resoect of the construction of the

Atli ftlaich 1003. 1.0

machinery :

No ; I think that it differs so little that I do not regard tliat as a very im-
portant element. The difficulty afterwards would remain of selecting proper
persons to perform the labour, and defining tiie j^rojier amount of work to be per-
formed by each prisoner ; and there must be much discretion left to the authorities
in that respect.

635. Are you of opinion that it is practically immaterial to have a uniform
construction of treadmills and cranks throughout the difl'erent gaols ?

Their construction is nearly uniform now, but that does not secure uniformity
in the labour imposed, because the prisoners differ, as I said before, in their
susceptibility of injury from those different kinds of labour.

636. Therefore the only mode of solving the difficulty, in your opinion, would
be to disuse altogether those forms of hard labour in which it is impossible to
obtain regularity and uniformity ?

I think that would be desirable.

637. You would desire to see the treadmill, the crank, and all machinal forms
of hard labour disused ?

No; that term would include the crank, which I have expressed an approval
of, and which is used in raising water ; namely, the crank pump.

638. That is the only form of machine to which you give your approval, and
the only one v\hich you would wish to see in use ?

There are some other machines which your Lordship has not yet alluded to in
use in prisons which I very highly approve of; for instance, the loom for weaving.

639. But speaking now of what we will call the two forms of hard labour, the
crank and the trcadwheel, do you consider it desirable that it sliould be laid
down by the Home Secretary, or by the legislature, that those machines are either
to be used or disused throughout all the prisons ?

1 think that at the present moment it would not be possible entirely to dispense
with the treadmill ; my observation would a[jply more to the hard-labour cranks,
which I think ought to be prohibited altogether ; they are so injurious to discipline,
and morally so bad in their eft'ects, that I think they ought to be prohibited by law ;
but 1 would not apply the same legal prohibition to the treadmill, for if you were to
do that you would do away with the treadwlieels, which are usefully emjiloyed, and
you would do away with the power of ]uitting capable people upon them, as well
as tliose who are incapable ; but 1 think that wherever they are employed, the
strictest means should be used to ascertain the fitness of the prisoners to work upon
them.

640. Can you suggest any improvement, in this respect, on the present
practice ?

Perhaps if the surgeon were required to attend occasionally during the action
of the treadwhcol, and to examine the men when they came ofT the wheel, that
might be an improvement.

641. Would not that involve the attendance of the surgeon at the treadwheel
for either eight or ten hours a day r

It would not ; because the number to be examined at a time would never be
considerable.

642. AA'ould not that involve the employment of an additional surgeon?

It would be convenient that tlie surgeon should be resident, which I think he
ought to be in all large prisons.

643. Would the mere residence of a surgeon within the gaol i-ecure that
amount of su])ervision which your answer implies ?

It would not absolutely secure it without the possibility of error, but it would
render the error much less frequent.

644 You stated in a previous answer, did you not, that three or five minutes
subsequent to a pristmer leavingvtlie wheel, it was impossible to detect whether
there was any very great variation in his pulsation :

I cannot have said three or five minutes, because that would not be the case. I

said

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 57

said that supposing the surgeon was sent for when the man was taken off the /. G. Perry, Esq.

wheel, probably before he would arrive, which might not be for some hours, the

man would cease to exhibit any indication of heart disease. 51 arcli 1 63.

6dS. Looking at the fact that the prisoners are taken off tlie wheel periodically
every 10, 15, or 20 minutes, in order to carry out the system of reliefs, would
not the personal supcrvi-ion of the surgeon involve his attendance upon the spot
during the whole time that the treadwheel was kept in motion ?

It would frequently happen that only one or two prisoners would require any
examination, and the same prisoner would seldom require to be examined more
than once.

646. Duke of Marlborough.'] Does the surgeon attend at the prison every
day f

The rules arc different in different prisons. In all the large prisons, the surgeon
is required to attend daily.

647. Would not it be possible for him to certify in the morning, or whenever
he attends, what prisoners could go upon the treadwheel r

I am su]iposing that thei'e may be only such an amount of disease as he would not
discover until the prisoner is put to active exertion ; but it would not be necessary
for him to attend all day, because the prisoners are not changed continually ; and
suppose that he makes a note when he has examined A. B. on his coming off the
wheel, and ascertains that he has no affection of the heart, and that he has previously
satisfied himself that he has no rupture, he would be satisfied about that man
ever afterwards, unless there was some renewal of the complaint, and then it
would be his duty to examine him again. But the manner iu which the surgeon
examines prisoners now when they first come in, and have been in a state of
rest in the reception cells, for some hours perhaps, before he sees them, is such as
to mask any slight amount of disease, and make it very difficult to discover.

648. But I understood you to say that the best mode of examination, if it were
conducted at all, would be, that the surgeon should examine the prisoners after
they come off the wheel r

Yes ; in doubtful cases.

649. And you also stated, did you not, in answer to the noble Chairman, that
you would not recommend the mechanical appliances now existing in gaols to be
done away with altogether, because it might be necessary on some occasions to put
prisoners on the treadwheel ?

I would recommend that one kind of labour, which I specified, to be abolished at
once, namely, the unproductive hard labour crank.

650. But you would not recommend the abolishment of treadwheels alto-
gether.

No. I think that, until a better system of productive labour is organised in the
different prisons, it would be almost impossible to find any kind of hiird labour for
prisoners without the treadwheel in some of the gaols ; but in many gaols the tread-
wheel has been given up for years, and the prisoners are employed productively,
and in some prisons it has never existed.

651. Objecting as you do to the use of the treadwheel as a hard labour punish-
ment as ageneral rule, in carrying out a portion of'apenal sentence, is it your opinion
that it might be retained as a punishment for an infraction of prison rules, or for
bad conduct in prison during the time that the prisoners were carrying out their
sentence.

There would be the same objection to that if the persons were physically inca-
pactiated frum performing that labour, in which case they could not be put upon
the treadwheel as a punishment.

652. Excluding, of course, those cases where they were physically incapa-
citated, would you retain the treadwheel in prisons as a means of punishing pri-
soners for an infraction of prison discipline during tlie time that they were in
prison, but not applying it as a portion of the punishment to which they were
sentenced ?

In the present state of things, I think it would be quite necessary to retain it

in some prisons, and this class of persons would be the first to be put upon it ; bat

(37.2.) H I think

58 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G. Pern.', Efq. ^ think that in process of time such a system of organised labour might be
— - introduced into all the prisons that the tieadwheel would be unnecessary in

5tb March 1863. carrying out the sentence, and the prisoners under punishment are very few, and
could not therefore work it by themselves.

653. With reference to productive industry, and to some of the inequalities
which you stated you felt it to be impossible to overcome in the case of prisoners,
when they Avere put upon hard labour as given by mechanical appliances, do not
you think it would be much more within the power of the governors of prisons
to regulate the amount of labour or of hard labour which should be given to
prisoners by modes of productive industry ?

I think it would be much easier to do so in that way than by mechanical
modes.

654. In fact, the governor, or the warders overlooking the prisoners at work
upon any species of productive industry, would be able to see whether they were
doing their duty ?

Yes, I have no doubt that they would. Some of them should be persons them-
selves instructed in the trade, and qualified as instructors of the prisoners ; and
those persons who are ca|)able of instructing the prisoners are quite capable of
judging whether the prisoners are doing their best at the work.

65.5. Would that involve any great additional expense in prisons:
No, because some of the men who are trades-instructors would also be war-
ders. There would, perhaps, be some additional expense ; perhaps there might
be some extra officers required ; but generally speaking, as in many Government
prisons, the trades-instructors would be discipline-warders also.

(556. Are there any objections which can be reasonably urged against prisoners
being employed in productive industry .?

I think not. 1 have heard of some objections : one, which was entertained per-
haps for the longest time of any, was that by employing persons in productive
labour in prisons, you were robbing the fair trader outside of his employment ; but
it does not appear to me that that is a valid objection, because the persons who
are in prisons are of a class who ought to labour if they were outside ; and giving
them the means and impulse to labour within the prison, does not seem to me to
be any encroachment on the fair traders outside, unless indeed the funds of the
county or of the borough were to be used as a capital to enable the county or
borough to undersell the fair trader ; that would be extremely injurious, and
would raise justly a very great clamour against labour in prisons.

657. Earl of Dudley.'] Could you refer the Committee to any such case ?

I do not think I could at this moment, but when I have inquired what things
were sold for in prisons, it has once or twice occurred to me to say, " You charge
less than the article can be sold for outside," which the governor has admitted ;
and I have said, " Do not consider that I sanction this ; I do not sanction your
selling things below the market price, because you are using the capital of the
county as a trading capital against the small dealers outside," and that has been
discontinued ; 1 do not know of any instances at present where that is done.

658. Do you know any case where the labour is not productive, and where it
does not show a return at the end of the year ?

Yes ; it is sometimes not profitable.

659. In fact, where it is a loss ?

It is not a loss if they get a sale for the articles, but there is often a very
large accumulation on hand, and there is a cjuantity of capital in that way fre-
quently lying dormant; but if they are sold, they are always sold at a profit.

660. Duke of Marlborcniffh.] Have you known any instances where the labour
of prisoners has been contracted for by manufacturers ?

I have.

Gfti. And has that answered beneficially ?

Yes ; that is the general mode which is ado])ted in very large prisons in
■which mat-making is conducted. At Coldiiath-fields and at Holloway, where a
very large nundjer of mats are mnde, thev are contracted for by dealers in
London, and they arc not sold at all below the market price in those prisons

where

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 59

where the labour is not contracted for. For instance, at Reading, where they j. G. Perry, Esq.

are made for the coiintv and sold for the benefit of the countv, they are not bv

any means too low-priced. ' ' " -^'^ ^^'"^ '^^'^

662. Earl Cathcart.'] Yoa informed us in your last day's evidence, that among
practical men there was a general opinion that seimration was essential to prevent
the contamination of tlic prisoners ; are you not equally well aware that with
regard to the wliole subject of labour, there is among practical men a very great
diversity of opinion ; indeed, that the whole question is considered very debatable
as to the best mode of industrial hard labour, and also as to the labour question
in general ?

Yes, there is a great difference of opinion upon that point.

66"^. Earl of Romney.] To go back to a subject which has already been discussed
at some length, namely, the putting of men upon the treadwheel, do you not
know that the practice is, that when a man is sentenced to hard labour where
the treadmill is used, the first thing done is that he is examined by the doctor,
who reports whether he is fit or not to be i>ut upon the wheel ?

Yes.

664. After that, if the man feels himself ill while at work and complains to th
turnkey, is it not then the case that they always order him straight to his cell ?

Yes, if his complaint is thought to be at all well founded.

665. It is the rule, is it not, that he is taken to his cell in order that then he
may be examined by the surgeon as soon as he comes into the prison :

Ye.s ; but then that examination is liable, as I have said just now, to the
objection that it is not made at the time when the symptoms are the most urgent.

660. Lord Steward.^ Who is the judge as to whether a complaint is well
founded or not?

Generally the superintending officer or the governor. If a man makes a very
decided complaint, the governor's attention would be called to it, and his duty
would, in my opinion, be immediately to take him off the wheel for examination ;
but that it is always done, I do not think I can say,

()()7. Earl of Romney.~\ Would not it be, in your opinion, the right course that
the man in charge of the wheel should take the prisoner to his cell and report the
fiict to the keeper of the gaol ?

It would.

66S. Then, supposing the surgeon reports that the man is shamming, he would
thereupon be punished, would he not :
Yes.

669. Then, supposing he is put upon the wheel after his punishment is over,
and he does the same thing again, do not you think that in all probability, and
do you not know', that the surgeon would, on his next visit, go to the wheel and
see the man undergoing his work, and have an opportunity of making a closer
examination ?

How the practice may be generally, I cannot say. I think he would be right
to do so, and I should feel it my duty, if I were a surgeon, to do that upon the
Jirst complaint.

670. You cannot say what is the course of practice in a well-regulated prison r
I do not think it is very common for the surgeon to go and examine persons

coming off the wheel.

671. If it comes to this that a man resists, and although he is put in the dark
cell over and over again, he continues to carry on a system of imposition, do not
you think that before proceeding to flog the man it would be just to require the
surgeon to go u]) to the wheel and see the man when he is undergoing labour on
the wheel ?

Yes, I think that should be done.

672. Before the Visiting Justices woud submit to be foiled by the man, or
before they would exercise the extreme powers which they possess, do not you
think they would require that the man should be carefully examined ?

(37.-2.) H 2 ■ Yes,

60 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G. P'Tiy, Esq. Yes, I am snre they would : before they ordered a man any extreme punishment,
h M~TT 86 they would refer him to the surgeon for examination.

(")73. Therefore, the real risk is very small:

Jt would amount to this : that tlie surgeon might examine the man when lie is
free from the symptoms, and thus overlook his disease.

674. That is no more than happens with everything in the world ; the surgeon
goes up to the wheel and hears the man's complaint, and then he has the best
means possible of testing it, has he not ?

Yes, I have said already that if he docs that, he would be adopting the right
course.

675. Have you any right to presume the contrary r

I do not presume the contrary, but I know that it is not always so. A surgeon
having examined a man when he was in a quiet state, and failed to discover
anything amiss about him, has afterwards had his attention called to him when
he has come off the wheel, and has discovered that the man had some disease of
the heart.

(176. With regard to the punishment of the wheel and the crank hard labour
you stated that you should like to do away with the crank labour at once, and with
treadwheel labour in time, when a better system of productive labour is found out ;
what would that better system be ?

It is difficult to say what it should be in all prisons, because it cannot be the
same in all. It must depend very much upon the habits of the people in the
neighbourhood : for instance, weaving is a very good employment, and it is now
used in many prisons, and it is taught to the prisoners, which involves a consi-
derable expense ; but in a county where weaving is the occupation of the ])eople,
a man who comes in for a week, or for three days, might be made to weave at
once, so that 1 think different kinds of occupation might be selected according as
they happen to prevail in the particular neighbourhoods.

677. Weaving and mat-making are carried on in many prisons now, are they not r
\ cs ; there are several prisons in my district in which weaving is carried on,

and many in which mat-making is carried on.

678. Is not that the alternative to which a man is put who receives a sentence
of hard labour, when the surgeon reports that he is not fit to be put upon the
wh eel ?

Yes, that is the case with many who are quite capable of labour.

679. Then it is not a better system than that which is in the prisons, because
it is already in existence there?

That is so ; but I wish to see it extended very much.

ti8o. Then that meets the difficulty in the case of a man who has been sen-
tenced to hard labour : if the surgeon says he is not fit to be on the treadwheel
because he has some disease, he is then employed in the manufacturing depart-
ment of the prison, wherein he works at mat-making, or some work of that
descrijition ?

That is already done in many of the best-conducted prisons.

t)8i . 'i'licii what is the better system to which you alluded r
I mc;an where a good system is more generally organised, and where it is carried
further than it is now carried in the best prisons.

68:2. Duke of Morlborongh.'] In referring to a better system, you do not
intend to imply a better system yet to be devised, but the system now in opera-
tion being more generally extended ?

Yes ; perhaps I ought to have said a more complete system.

6S3. Earl of T^wZ/cT/.] Namely, that of productive labour?

A system by which different kinds of productive labour should be more extended.

684. Earl of Ducie.~\ You have expressed a very strong opinion against what is
called unproductive labour, and more especially against the hard labour crank, I
believe ?

Yes.

685. And

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 61

68,5. And the reason that you have given for discontinuing those punishments j . G- Perri/, Esq.

is, that they produce such a feeh'ng- of irksomeness among the prisoners as to lead

to insubordination:- 5th March 1863.

Yes.

686. Admitting that a certain amount of the reformatory element is practised in
prison discipline, is there not also a certain amount of the df^terrent element
looked to ?

Yes ; but I have not so much confidence as many persons have in the deterring
power of prison punisliments.

687. Earl of Dudley.'] Have you confidence in their reforming influence ?

I tliink that many men are reformed in prison, but I do not think that it often
hapj)ens that persons are deterred from the commission of crime by the recol-
lection of past suffering ; because, when a man is about to commit an offence,
he does not expect to be discovered, and if not delected, he will not be punished ;
and therefore he is not very likely to weigh minutely the shades of difference of
the punisiiment that he may have gone through in different imprisonments.

688. Kar! of Ducie.] The change from crank labour to productive labour would
be to produce a milder system of punishment, and also one much more palatable
to the prisoners, would it not?

I suppose tiiat it would be more palatable, but, at the same time, it would
bring a m;ju's mind into a better state : and although I am far from a'^n-eeino- -with
those who would put punishment entirely out of the way, I think that we ouoht
to recollect that we are strongly interested in making the pris-oner a peaceable
and industrious citizen when he goes out of prison ; and 1 believe that by incul-
cating habits of industry in that ]iraetical manner, you will give a man a greater
tendency to industrious habits when he goes out than he had before.

689. You stated, did you not, that there were cases of men having committed
suicide in despair at the crank labour ?

Yes ; the case that brought on the inquiry at the Birmingham Gaol originated
in that. \

690. But you only know of one case, do you ?

No, I am not able at this moment to speak of any other case where suicide
has actually been committed.

691. Marquess o\' Satisburj/.'] Are 30a prepared to say that the necessity for
imprisonment in general does not make it very desirable that the position of a
prisoner in gaol should be worse than that of a common labourer?

Yes ; but I do not see how that is to be done by the imposition of any kind of
labour. Men who work for their living out of doors work to the extent of their
strength, and it would be impossible to require more than that from a prisoner.

692. Y'"ou inade a distinction, did you not, between labour being irksome and
not being irksome ?

That was not a word that I used ; I said that unproductive hard labour was of
a kind to stir up all the bad feelings of a man against the authorities, and, there-
fore, to produce a deterioration of his moral character.

693. Then you think that it is disadvantageous ?

I think that that is the disadvantage of that kind of labour. It mioht be
extremely irksome for a man to be emidoyed in productive labour, but it would
not be so irritating to his feelings, because he would feel that tiiough he was
suffering it was probably inflicted for his good ; but when he sees no result from
his labour but what he would consider mere torture to himself, he does not look
•with the same respect at the motives of those wiio imposed the labour.

694. What, in your opinion, is the object of imprisonment with hard labour.?
Partly punishment and partly reformation.

695. Which, in your opinion, ought to hold the first place ?

Certainly the most important to the community is the reformation of the
individual, and if that could be brought about \vithoiit punishment I should be
very glad to see such a change ; but I do not see at present how we can produce
the reformation of the individual without some admixture of punishment. If it

(.37.-2.) H 3 could

62 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G. Perry, Esq. could be shown, which I think is impossible, that tiie public could gain their
~ object of reforming the criminal without imposing upon him any punishment, 1

5t aic 1 iL 3. gij^^^jjj ti-,jj^i^ that the highest state of moral advancement and the greatest political
advantage to the public had been attained. But in the present constitution of the
human mind I do not think that that is possible, and, tlierefore, I think that the man
must undergo a certain amount of punishment ; but that is imposed by making- him
labour ior the advantage of others without any wages for liimself. if a man who
is employed in producing for two years a large amount of work, which would be
extremely remunerative to him if he were a free labourer, sees that all tiie ])ro-
ducts of his industry go to others, that must be allowed to be a considerable
punishment. Then he is deprived of his liberty, which is another yery consider-
able punishment ; and without the imposition of actual pain in prison, I think
that we do consult the principle of punishment in those two ways, and in the
privation of the indulgences to which those men are addicted.

696. Then your great objection to crank labour without profit, or hard labour
without any result from it, is that it is injurious tf) the moral feelings of the
prisoner ?

Yes, and to the possibility of the labour being unequally imposed ; that is
another ground of objection.

697. You have just now stated that it is a grent punishment to a prisoner
to be deprived of the profits of his exertions and industry. Do not you con-
ceive that that would in some respects be injurious to his moral feelings :

No, I do not think so ; he would feel that that is a just retribution for what he
has done, and he may promise himself that, having acquired the means of produc-
tive industry in prison, he may, after his discharge, turn it to a good account,
and that he may, therefore, be a gainer by what he has undergone ; but he would
not feel that with regard to labour which is simply punitive.

(iu8. You have stated that the main object of punishment is reformation;
therefore, in your opinion, the main object of punishment is not the prevention
of crime in others :

I think that punishment is a means of reformation.

6ga. You say that reformation is the main object ?

Yes.

700. And )'ou do not look upon the punishment of crime as any benefit to
society at large ?

I am sorry that I should have been so understood. T say that, in the present
constitution of the human character, I think punishment is necessary to follow
crime; but I would not impose the punishment simply for the purpose of pun-
ishing, but with the view of producing refr)rmation in the individual, so that
he might be a more profitable member of society afterwards.

701. But you do not think that the suffering which is inflicted is any benefit to
society at large ?

I think that society at large are less influenced by it than the criminal himself,
and I have already said that I do not think that it produces a very lasting im-
pression upon his mind. I think that other persons are less likely to be influenced
by the surt'erings of a criminal than the man himself, because they are less
acquainted with them.

702. Then vou repudiate all deterrent influence ?

I do not repudiate it altogether, but I think that the value of it has been very
much magnified by some persons.

703. Do you moan its value to society, or to the indivi(hial ?

I think that the public in general attach more value to the deterrent effect of
punishment than it deserves; I do not by any means say that it ])roduces no
effect upon the criminal or upon others, but I think that the effect has been very
much magnified in ])ul)lic opinion.

704. Do you conceive that the deterrent influence upon society by the
infliction of punishment is of no benefit in the prevention of crime -

I think that it is of some benefit, but I think that the benefit is not so great as
is generally supposed ; and looking at the efl'ect of iirisons M'here we have a

greater

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 63

greater opportunity of observing it, we find that the greatest resistance to authority, j, q. Perry, Esq.

and consequently the enduring of greater punishment, takes place where the mode •

of discipline is the most severe and irritating. A man is not prevented from dis- oth March 1865.

obeying the rules of the prison by being put into a dark cell once, or twice, or "

thrice, and sometinn s not l)v being flogged, although he may feel quite sure that
his disobedience' will lead to those results ; therefore, that proves how little he is
deteired by the fear of punishment.

705. Do you think that society at hirge are not deterred by the fear of punish-
ment ?

I think that the public are slightly deterred, but as they cannot be acquainted
with the full extent of the punishment, I think that they cannot be deterred so
much as the individual who undergoes it ; and we see that he is not very seriously
deterred, for we find the same man coming into the same prison 15 or 20 times
over to undergo the same punishment.

706. JNIay not tliat be attributed to the punishment not being sufficiently
deterrent ?

I can speak of some instances where persons have been on the treadwheel
during the whole time that tliey have been in prison, and some where they have
even been flogged, while tiiey have been in prison, for refusing to work, and vvhere
they have still come back again. I remember a very remarkable case that I saw
at Hertford, and which I mentioned in one of my reports, of a man who had been
in a great number of times for poaching, and he had suff"ered the punishment of
the treadwheel every time, and he had even been flogged, and yet he came again,
and he very frankly siiid, '' Well, sir^ if I can't get a gamekeeper's place after
my discharge, I shall be in again."

707. The result of your evidence is, that you do not think that it is desirable
to have such punishments in prisons as would deter society, but you prefer
those punishments which would lead to the reformation of the individual
only ?

1 by no Tneans object to any punishment which would deter from crime ; but
I think that those punishments whicit I have mentioned, and wliich every man
undergoes — namely, the privation of libertv, the privation of aninml indulgences,
and the being obliged to work for others — are severe punishments, and quite as
likely to be dreaded by others as those which profess no reformatory object, and
which I should think produce no good effect upon the man's mind at all: and as
they cannot be weighed by persons outside, I think that their effect upon the
public mind generally is very small.

708. What is the number of re-committals, according to the last return?
The number of re-coumiitted prisoners for the year 1861 was 24,763 males.

7119. What was the number of committals in that year?
96,763.

710. Out of those about one-fourth onlv were re-committals r
Just so.

711. To what do you attribute the absence of re-committals on the part of the
other three-fourths?

In that there is a fresh supply of criminals.

712. Tlien you estimate the fresh supply of criminals per annum at about
three-fourths ?

It is obvious that it is so, so far as the previous committals can be known, but
there are a great many that have been previously committed who are not known ;
but, taking this as the number, that would prove that about one-fourth are
rC'Committed.

7! ■

13. Are the other three fourths deterred from committing crime again by the
jiunishment which they have received, or do you believe they are reformed ?

Some may be reformed, some may be prevented by the recollection of former
punishment ; but in the case of by far the greater mmiber, it has been because the
circumstances which exposed them to crime have been less active against

(37-:>.) h4 them.

64 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G. Peiiy, Esq. tbeni ; for instance, many of them have got into employment, having been
th Marcli iS6t previously unemployed. I cannot attribute the immunity of the three-fourths

' from re-conimitnient to the deterring effect of the former punishment wlien there

are so many other causes which may have operated in their favour, their getting
into employment being among the greatest of them. Others, again, have left the
country, and others have entered the army and navy.

714. Ch{iirma?i.'j You stated, did you not, in answer to a question which was
jjut to you, that you wished to see trade instruction and trade occupation in the
the gaols extended ?

Yes.

715. And proportionately with the extension of trade occupations, you would
advocate the disuse of the treadwheel and the cranks ?

Yes, of the liard labour cranks.

716. I understood you to say that you would prefer to see that which is tech-
nically and commonly known now under the name of hard labour disused, and
the place of that hard labour supplied by means of trade occupations?

I should hardly like it to be inferred that 1 object to what is technically culled
hard labour, because it is difficult to define what that is. Many persons agree
with me in thinking that every kind of labour is hard or light in proportion to
the amount of it that is exacted.

717. \ ou are aware, are you not, of the investigations which took place, and
the resolutions which were passed, by the Duke of Richmond's Committee in
1S35 ?

Yes ; but I am not very familiar with them, because I was not in office at that
time.

718. You are aware that they recommended, and that they contemplated, the
adoption of hard labour in all prisons on the separate system ?

Yes.

719. You are also aware, are you not, of the inquixy which took place in this
House in 1847 ?

Yes.

720. Arc you aware that one of the recommendations of that Committee was,
that hard labour should be enforced r

Yes.

721. You are aware also of the examination which took place in 1850 in the
House of Commons, by Mr. Pearson's Committee r

Yes.

722. Are you aware that in those resolutions hard labour was contemplated
and recommended ?

Yes.

723. Do you believe that in the opinion of those several Committees, when
hard labour is spoken of by them, it certainly applied both to the treadwheel and
to the cranks?

It applied, I presume, to any kind of hard labour that could be procured ; I do
not know that it was exclusively applied to those descriptions; in fact, tlie hard
labour of the crank was unknown at the time of the Committee of the Hou<e of
Lords which you'' Lordship refers to. \Vh;it I call the hard labour crank was
not invented until about 184.') ; it was invented at Pentonville Prison by one of
the officers.

724. Are you aware that one of the distinctive differences in the gaol at Read-
ing has been the absence of that which is commonly and currently known by the
name of hard labour r

Yes ; if tiie term is to be restricted to those kinds of labour which your Lord-
ship has named, they are quite wanting at Reading.

72.5. The report of Mr. Field, the chaplain of the gaol, in 1846, to the quarter
sessions at Reading, is quoted in his evidence .'is given before tiie Selei't ('oni-
mittee of this Ilou^e in 1847, in which report this passage occurs: — "The short

experience

SELECT COMMITTEE ON VRISON DISCIPLINE. 65

experience -which has yet been obtained of the operation of the system in Reading /. g. Verry, Esq.

Gaol has yielded every encouragement for the hope and the belief that its con-

templated benefits will be confirmed by its continued application ; and the visiting 5tli March 1863.

justices are so persuaded of its incompatibility with hard labour that they are not

prepared to offer any suggestions for the supply of means by which to renew the

introduction into Reading Gaol of that mode of punishment. On the contrary, if

it be necessary, they would rather recommend that application be made to the

Secretary of State, that measures be taken to obtain by law such a construction of

the legal sentence of hard laliour as would provide due authority for its commutation

by a compulsory moral discipline." Being familiar with the system pursued in

Reading Gaol, are you prepared to say that that system is one which you would

adopt ?

Certainly not.

J 26. On what ground ?

]3ecause there is, in rny opinion, far too little labour performed at Reading.

727. Can you state to the Committee in short terms what the Reading system
is, and on what grounds you object to it ?

It has been altered since Mr. Field gave that evidence by the introduction of
a greater amount of labour, in which respect I approve of it. In my 27th Report
I state " the labour performed by male prisoners consists of pumping water for
the use of the prison by means of a crank-pump, divided into separate compart-
ments ; grinding corn for the supply of the prison, with Dean's patent hand flour
Diills; gardening, whitewashing, mat-making, shoe mending, tailoring, carpentry,
and painting; and the females are employed in needlev\ork and washing."

728. How far do you consider that that fails to carry out the system which you
would approve of?

Although it is a great improvement upon the total absence of labour that existed
at first, 1 do not tliink it is carried quite far enough ; I think that the introduction
of the hand flour mills is a very good measure indeed, and is very well adapted for
all prisons, especially those on the separate system, because they can be worked in
separate cells.

729. Is it always easy to obtain a supply of corn sufficient to keep the mills in
working order ?

Always; because they do not do a great deal of work in a day, but they grind
sufficient for the maintenance of the prisoners, and sometimes more ; but in many
prisons in which they have introduced them, although they have only a small
number of mills, they can grind corn enough for the prisoners' bread.

730. Are you aware what amount of labour that would give to a prisoner, in a
gaol containing from 300 to 400 ?

Generally, there is a selection of prisoners to work at those mills, and they
work for several hours in the day at a time. Then, it is commonly varied with
other kinds of labour, which, I think, is a good plan ; for instance, a man may
work in grinding corn for some hours, and tlien he may go and pick oakum, or do
some other work.

731. Do you believe that if those mills are employed simply to grind the amount
of flour, which is necessary for the consumi)tion of the prison, that would give on
an average more than one or two hours work a day to every man ?

Most certainly, to those engaged upon them, if the number of mills is small
and the number of prisoners is large.

732. Does a small mill grind less in proportion than a large one ?

I mean, if there is a small luunber of mills, and a large number of prisoners, the
mills will be occujiied all day in grinding corn enough for tlie prison.

733. Will that give you on the average an hour a day per prisoner?

Men are generally selected, and they work for several hours each ; the prisoners
are not all brought in rotation to work at those mills.

734. From your own practical knowledge and experience in this matter, are
you aware whether, in a gaol containing from 300 to 400 prisoners with mills
wliich grind only that amount of flour which is necessary for the consumption of

(37. 2.) I the

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G. Perry, Esq.
5th March 1863.

the establisliment, it is ]>liysically possible to attain to very much more than one
hour per day of hai'd work at those mills ?

No ; I liave said that every man is not put to that work ; but I am speaking- of it
as a kind of labour, to which a certain number of men are told off, and those men
may have just as much time occLipied in it, as is thought desirable. I do not mean
to say that hand mills for grinding corn for the prison, supposing the number of
prisoners to be large, would furnish employment to every prisoner in the gaol, but
that that is one mode which I think verv o-ood.

735. Will not, therefore, a
occupation at the handmills.
No doubt.

large majority of the prisoners be without this;

736. If, consequently, there is no other employment except that which trade
occupations afford them, a large majority of the prisoners will have to depend upon
those trade occupations for their hard labour ?

Yes.

737. Is it your opinion that when a sentence is pronounced in court, assigning
so many months with hard labour, employment of the prisoner in trade occu-
pations of particular kinds, such as book-binding, gardening, or making paper
bags, is in fact a legitimate carrying out of the sentence so pronounced ?

iNo. Your Lordship has mentiimed one occupation which I think can hardly
be called liard labour, and I should not put any man to do it ; I refer to making
paper bags ; gardening is generally reserved for the sick, or those who are
incapable of doing heavier work, and who require a large amount of exercise and
fresh air, and bookbinding is only done to repair the books.

738. Do you think that gardening comes up to the standard of hard labour?

It is not given to those who are capable of hard labour ; it is given
to persons who may be under sentence of hard labour, but Mho, by reason of a
bodily infirmity of some kind are not able to perform hard labour, or who have
been in the infirmary, or are recommended by the surgeon to have more exercise
in the open air; such persons are generally pnt into the garden class, — it is not
considered hard labour.

739. Do you think that the employment of a man on his own special trade, at
which he possibly, when out of prison, may be working VI or 14 hours a day, but
on whicli he is employed in prison five or six, or eight hours at the maximum,
implies that amount of hard labour ?

No, it docs not ; but a man may be employed in his own special trade much
more than five or six hours in prison ; he maybe employed ail day.

740. Are you aware of any single prison in which he is employed all day ?
Yes, certainly.

741. The Act of Parliament prescribes 10 hours hard labour as the maximum,
does it not ?

Yes, I think it does.

742. Are you aware whether in any prison any prisoner is employed even for
10 hours in the trade on which he is employed out of the walls of the prisons?

Yes, I conceive that there are some prisons in which that is done.

743. Can you name them ?

I can mention one, namely, the Borough Gaol of Northampton, and, I think,
in tlie ])rison of the West Riding of Yorkshire, at Wakefield, they must be em-
ployed quite as long as that, but I would not take upon myself to speak
j)Ositively.

744. Do you believe that the maximum of 10 hours, as assigned by tlie Act of
Parliament, contemplated that form of hard lai)our which I have described r

I cannot say ; it is impossible for me to answer that ({uestion ; but the difficulty
of working in ])rison for more than 10 hours arises from causes which it would be
impossible to change w itlioiit a subversion of the system altogether. One cause is
the necessity for attending Divine service every day, M'hich takes up time ; another
is the rule wliich prescribes that a prisoner shall have a certain amount of educa-
tion and instruction given him ; when these deductions, and the time employed in

their

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. G7

tlieir meals are taken into account, it would bo difficult, I think, to give them J. G. Perry, Esq.

more than 10 hours, or even as much. In some prisons there is chapel service „

twice a day. ^th M^rch 18G3.

745. Therefore, under the present arrangements, in many prisons it is impos-
sible, even if there are means of doing it, to give the maximum of 10 hours' hard
labour r

Yes, I think it would be very difficult, especially in those prisons which are not
lighted at niofht.

7/^6. I understand that your reason for advocating trade instruction in preference
to hard labour at the crank and the treadwheel, is the moral reformation which
is produced in the character of the prisoners?

Yes, and also the advantage from the sale of the produce to the county or
borough,

747. From your experience, Mhich has extended over a great many years, have
you been able to follow the characters and conduct of prisoners on their leaving
prison ?

Yes, in some few instances, but my observation of them has been very limited
after their discharge.

748. Do you believe that the system of reformation, as practised in any of the
gaols, has been successful ?

In a great number of instances it has.

749. Can you state to the Committee whether it has been successful with
regard to any particular classes of prisoners ?

It would be very rash in me to say what has produced the reformation, but I
have not the leasi doubt that a great number of persons who have committed an
ofFence anti have gone to prison, have afterwards conducted themselves very well,
and have obtained good characters. I would not take it upon me to attribute that
to the effiict of any positive discipline that they have undergone, but I think it is
very likely that the time that they have had for reflection, especially in prisons on
the separate system, and the good advice and encouragement that they have received
from benevolent and zealous chaplains and governors, have contributed to make
them lead good lives afterwards ; but I have not the smallest hesitation in saying
that there are great numbers of persons who do lead good lives, and obtain good
characters after having been in prison.

750. In our large gaols there are to be found a certain number of prisoners who
may be said to belong to the class of educated persons ; do you believe that the
system of moral reformation by means of trade instruction has produced any eliect
upon them which has subsequently changed their course of life r

Practically I have no means of giving an opinion on that subject. Educated
men are very often persons who, after their discharge from prison, have friends
or properly which may put them out of the reach of common temptations ; and
they may also be more deterred than others, by the recollection of their suffer-
ings, because their sufferings in prison are much greater than those of common
prisoners ; but I know of no instance that I can point to, for happily the number
of persons of high education and position in prison is not very large.

751. Do you mean that moral reformation is produced by those agencies upon
the receivers of stolen goods as a class ?

No ; I think that those are, generally speaking, among the worst of prisoners.

752. Do you believe that it is produced upon that class which we may call
trained and habitual thieves ?

1 do not think that one ought to speak of them collectively as a class ; I think
that a man may have been an habitual thief, and yet he may be ]ilaced under cir-
cumstances after his discharge from prison, which may make him feel that it is
the wiser policy to be uidustrious, especially if he have learned a trade by which
he can live.

753- Are you aware of this system of trade instruction having produced such
an effect upon the minds of men selected from those i)articular classes which have
come under your notice ?

1 have already said tliat I have not the means of answering that, because I can-

notfollow those persons after their discharge ; but I see such an amendment of

(^7. 2.) I 2 demeanor

68 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G.Periy, Esq. demeanor and cliaracter produced 1 y regular industry of a productive kind iu

,.k iii'~r or itrisonw, that I Think it cannot fail to be productive of a beneficial effect after
5th March 1803. ' . .' , ^ . ^
their discharge troni prison.

754. Do you believe that it has produced those beneficial results upon the
class of vagrants '.'

The vagrants are so short a time in ])rison that they are seldom employed upon
anything- but the roughest kind of work.

755. Do not they appear and reappear over and over again in gaols?

Yes; hut there are other causes besides mere criminality \\hicli lead them to
prison ; they come to prison for the sake of an asylum in the bad seasons of the
year. There are a great numljer of vagrants who commit crimes in order to lie
sent to prison, simply to keep themselves Marm and to be fed well through the
winter, 1 believe.

7,')6. Do vou believe that th<'Se effects are produced upon the class from which
buro-lars and" men committed for violent and murderous assaults are tai<en ?

I do not know. I see very few of them in common prisons ; jiersons who are
guilty of niurilerous assaults are generally sent to the Government prisons; but I
can conceive that a man may even have been a highwayman, and yet he may be
susceptible of improvement, if he gets under favourable circumstances. That
is, probablv, the reason why transportation was beneficial in restoring so many
persons to a useful position, namely, that they found nuich greater facility in
getting a living and in procuring the means of indulgiuLi their appetites by labour
than by theft, because they went into thinly-peopled colonies where there was
little to steal, and where employment was very easily obtained.

757. Puttin"- however the question of transportation aside, the conditions of
which arc entirely different from those existing in this country, and foreign to
them, are vou of opinion that that large class to which allusion has been made,
which comprises the reconvictions to prison, are a class upon whom thi^ trade
instruction produces any beneficial effect ?

■^'es ; I thiiik that it has a tendency to improve every man who is employed in
it ; I do not mean to go so far as to say that it is likely to be effective to the full
extent ujion all, but I believe that it produces some modicum of good upon every
mind.

7.58. Vou Ijelieve that this present system has produced a beneficial effect upon
those classes which I have enumerated, namely, upon receivers ol stolen goods,
upon vagrants, upon trained thieves, upon burglars, upon men committed for
murderous assaults, and upon reconvicted prisoners?

I have said before, that I cannot take upon myself to speak so confidently as
that, but I believe that the tendency of industrial employment is good ; and 1 see,
I think, a very nuich improved demeanor in the prisoners who have been sub-
jected to it, compared to the demeanor of those who have betn subjected
only to those punishments which are simply punitive, and amongst whom the
countenance retains that criminal expression which ti.e prisoner brought iu with
him.

7.59. Do not those classes which I have enumerated, comprise, at all events, a
large proportion of the prisoners ?

Yes, a very large proportion, I imagine.

760. Arc yon of o])inion that in this case punishment, as such, in a deterring
point of view, is useless ?

I believe that a person who is not likely to be reformed by the methods which

I have mentioned, is not likely to be deterred by punishment. We find persons

coming in over and over again when they have been transported and retransported,

and sentenced to penal servitude, and still they continue coming in for receiving

stolen goods, or for the same offences that they were in for before ; and therefore 1

think that it may be inferred that punishment, in the form of Avhat is called

" hard labour," has produced as little etiect upon them as the cultivation of

industrious habits would have done. 1 believe that a greater reduction has

taken place in the number of committals, has been experienced in prisons on the

separate system where treadmills and cranks have been unknown than in those

where they have been employed.

76 1. And

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 69

761. And in spite of the existence of those classes, you would he prepared to J. G. Perry, Esq.
recommend the disuse of the crank and the treadwheel, and other machinery of , ^ T ^gg
that nature for inflicting hard punishment, and substitute in lieu thereof, as widely

as possible througli the country, a system of trade instruction ?
1 would.

762. Earl oi Dudley.'] What you have now said so distinctly in one word
does not quite agree with what you said before ; I understood you to say, that you
recommended that useless labour at the crank should be done away with, and not
productive labour ?

Certainly, and 1 do not mean to reverse that opinion.

7G3. That is rather different, is it not, from the answer which you gave to the
noble Chairman ?

I understood his Lordship as speaking prospectively, as to whether I was in-
clined to recommend the substitution of productive labour for that which is not
at all productive eventually ; and my answer was, that I should be so inclined ;
but I had previously said that I would not abruptly discontinue the treadmill,
althouah I would wish that the crank be at once discontinued.

-*o

764. Lord Steward.] The treadwheel might be made productive, might it
not?

It might, and on that account I would not wish it to be discontinued at present.

765. Chairman.'] Is it not a matter of fact, that the treadwheel is made, in
many gaols, a means of j^roductive labour?

It is ; but then it is open to other objections, as I stated in my examination on
the last day of the meeting of the Committee,

766. Earl Cathcart.] It appears to me that you have forgotten one most dis-
turbing influence with regard to the statistics of recommitments ; namely, that
prisoners are, in numerous instances, put down as convicted for the first time,
simply because there is no proof to show that they have been convicted before,
on account of the want of communication between the different gaols.

I did mention that. When I gave the number from the Blue Book, I said that
those were stated not to have been committed before, but of course we had no
means of knowing that that was the case, and in many instances they probably
had been committed before, though the fact had not been discovered.

767. Lord Lyveden.] Would it not be easy to have such general communica-
tion from one prison to another ?

I have often thought that something of the kind might be done, that officers
might be sent round to the different prisons ; at present there is a means adopted
which does not seem so effective in practice as it was thought that it would be.
I refer to sending round photographs of the j)risoners, but that is only done on a
small scale, when a man is supposed from his manner and demeanor to have
been a convict in the hulks, or a convicted prisoner; some officers are very quick
in discerning the ])ecularities of manner of those who have been in convict prisons,
and ihey sometimes send round previously to the trial of a man, a photograjili of
him to the different prisons to be passed on from one to the other, perhaps some-
times going to 20 prisons to inquire whether the man is known there, and if
so, what is known about him.

76S. Would it not be easy to have a general rule laid down, that there should
be a description of the person committed transmitted to all the gaols all over the
country.

That might be done, but it is a very difficult thing from a simple description of a
man to establish his identity ; but 1 think that much might be done in that way.

769. Earl Cathcart.] You are aware, are you not, that there is a communication
sent by the Secretary of State, or by his authority, called the " Police Gazette"?

Yes';

770. Might not some paper, in the nature of the " Police Gazette," be circu-
lated in the different prisons?

It would of course hardly undertake to send descriptions of all persons com-
mitted for petty thefts and vagrancy.

(37.2.) 13 77!- Earl.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G.Perry, Esq. 771- Earl of Dudley.'] With regard to what was said just now by the noble
■til mI^i86t ^^h^'!""^*'^"- '}'^ not you tiiink that at the present moment, the punishment wliich

" ' ^s gi^'"^'" ai"^! "je hibour which is exacted in every gaol, is discussed and known by

the prisoner class generally throughout the country, and that they calculate what
amount of punishment they are to receive ?

1 do not think that ; I think that they are extremely reckless as to the conse-
quences of their crimes ; they know that a very small proportion of the crimes
committed by them are ever discovered, and they think that they will draw prizes
though other men may draw blanks.

7712. They risk it?

\es, they risk it; and I do not think that the ulterior consequences of re-
committals to prison ever enter into their calculation at all.

773. Wo hear them constantly say, " We expected only three months"?
"Yes, that is their expectation alter their arrest, but when they committed the

crime they never dreamed that they would get three months, or be discovered
at all.

774. You do not think that that enters into their calculation, but they simply
run the risk ?

I do not think it does.

775. They are carried away by the incitements to crime, and their previous
punishment does not deter them ?

Yes ; I fear that it does not deter them, except in the slightest degree, and
therefore it is that I so much prefer the kinds of discipline which are likely to
improve the character of the man.

776. Do not you think that that class are governed almost entirely by fear,
and that that is the most important question to be considered with regard to
them ?

No ; I do not think so.

777. Lord lVo(khouse.~\ Would not your answer come to this, that except for
the purpose of reforming offenders, it would be better to abolish prisons alto-
gether, and not go to the expense and trouble of maintaining them ?

It would still be necessary to restrain them by imprir-onment. I said before,
that if it Mere possible to reform a man without inflicting pain, I should conceive
it to be our duty to do so ; but that as pain to a certain extent is necessary to
produce reformation in the present constitution of the human character, pain must
be inflicted ; but we do not do it for the purpose of inflicting punishment, but
to make punishment a means of improving the prisoner.

778. Earl of Diicie.] In short, the only punishment that you would advocate
would be that which would have in view the reformation of the offender?

Yes, if that could be done effectually.

77Q. Lord Wode/iouse.'] And if you were to fail in reforming the offender, the
logical result would be that we nmst give up punishment ?

Not imprisonment ; you can put it out of tiis power to commit offences by that
means.

780. That is rather inconsistent with vour statement, because that is something
entirely beyond the reformation of the offender.

Yes, the protection of the public from spoliation and violence is the object,
and the reformation of the offender is one of the most powerful means of pro-
tecting the public. Speaking aljstractcdly, there is no advantage in inflicting
punishment, but merely as a means of reformation or repression, for the benefit
of the public.

781. You just now said, in answer to a noble Lord, that you did not think that
offenders were in any respect inflm need, when they hereabout to commit a crime,
cither by the expectation of jiuuishmeiit, or by tlie reuienibrance of past punish-
ment ; do not you then see that the result of that must be that, unless you can
reform the offender, ])risous and ])unishments are a useless and unnecessary
cxjiense r

1 do not say that they are not in any degree, but that they are not much in-
fluenced by such recollections, because they do not take into account the

probability

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 71

probal)ility of being discovered ; and tliercfore, in proportion to the small risk tliat /, q_ Perry.tiq:

tliey run, their consideration of the consequences must be small also.

•^ . 5th March 18631

782. Chairman.'] Have you any special suggestion to make to the Committee

with regard to the production of evidence which can establish the identity of a

person on his second appearance ?

There is one expedient which I have thought might be adopted partly with
that view, and partly to obtain a repressive power over a man after he is discharged
from prison, which is, to require that all persons sentenced for felony either after
the first sentence, or at any rate after the second, should enter into their own
recognizances for good behaviour after they are discharged for a certain length of,
time, and that the condition imposed upon them should be that they should
report themselves to the police, and that their residence should be made known
to the police and any change of residence. It seems to me that that would be
a great check upon them ; and tlie Secretary of State might have the powei* of
releasing them from their recognizances upon proof from the police that ihey had
conducted themselves well for a certain length of time. That intercommunication
would make them known to the j)olice, and their movements would also become
known, so that they nn'ght be much more easily traced ; and this would have the
effect which was intended to be produced by the ticket of leave, of giving a
proper sujjervision over the man for some time after he is discharged, without its
operating, as the ticket of leave is supposed by many to do, in abrogating a part
of the sentence, and therefore destroying the prestige of the judgment of the
court.

783. Supposing, however, that the prisoner, after his discharge, was either
unwilling or unable to enter into recognizances, how would you deal with him
then ?

It would be merely a personal engagement, and would make him liable to a
forfeiture of his liberty if he did not fulfil that eng-ajrement. I do not think that
it would be possible to bind him over in any money penalty, but the man should
be told on his discharge, "You will be under supervision for six months (or what-
ever term it might be), during which time you will have to report yourself once a
month to the police, and if you change your residence you nmst give them a re]Jort
of your change of residence." That would at any rate keep the men after their
discharge in the knowledge of the police for a little while, and if they were found
to have got into employment, or to be conducting themselves well, and getting
their living honestly, they might be liberated from their engagement by the
Secretary of State. I do not tliink that it would be difficult to work sucli a sys-
tem, and it seems to me that it would be a very great security against persons
going back into crime.

784. That would be simply establishing, with regard to prisoners who have
passed through the criminal courts with less than two years' imprisonment, the
same system which is now supposed to be enforced with regard to penal ser-
vitude.

Yes ; except that it would follow the sentence, instead of being part of it.

785. Lord Steward.'] If a man declined to give that recognizance, what penalty
can you inflict upon him ?

Not any in the present state of the law.

7X6. What object would a man have in entering into such an engagement ?

It should be made a part of his sentence. The law would not admit of it at
present, but fresh legislation might make it possible, just as is done now in the
case of assault. It is very common to order that a man shall bo imprisoned for six
months, and then give security for 12 months afterwards; and so in this case, in-
stead of giving a money security, which is very olten difficult to get, I would let the
man bind himself, under certain conditions, to show himself. The registering
which would be rendered necessary in that process would make it much more
easy to trace a man afterwards, if it was desired.

787. Lord ff'odf/iouse.'] Would you recommend such a system with regard to
prisoners sentenced for very short terms?

No, I would not ; indeed, I think that it is unnecessary, unless a man is con-
victed a second time ; I should try it first with the second comnnttals.

(37. 2.) I 4 788. Chairman.']

72 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE

J. G. Perry, Esq. 788. Chairman.'] Is not, very often, the real difficulty this, that when a man
— — appears, in fact, the second time in a court of law, it is supposed that he comes

.;th March 1863. \^Qy.Q for the first time, and there is no means of proving his identity ?

~~~~ That happens every day no doubt ; but a great number of cases are discovered.

There would still be some undiscovered ; but it appears to me that this mode of
reo-istering a man, and requiring him to report himself for a time, would make
the police so familiar with him that he could be easily traced if necessary.

789. Would you bind him to confine himself to one particular district?
Not at all ; but he should give notice of his change of residence, so that he may
be put under the supervision of the police of another county if he removed.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Ordered, that this Committee be adjourned to Monday next, One o'clock.

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE.

Die Lunce, 9° Martii 1 863.

LORDS PRESENT;

Lord President.
Duke of Marlborough.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Earl of Carnarvon'.
Earl of Malmesbury.

Earl of EOMNEY.
Earl Cathoart.
Earl of Due IE.

Lord WODEHOUSE.

THE EARL OF CARNARVON, in the Chair.

Evidence on
Prison Discipline.

jE. Smith, Esq.,

EDWARD SMITH, Esquire, m.d., xl.b., f.r.s., is called in, and examined '"'"'' ^^•'^•>^-"'

as follows :

790. Chairman.'] I believe you belong to the College of Physicians ?
Yes.

791. Will you be good enough to state to the Committee what are the dif-
ferent qualifications which you possess ?

I am a Doctor of Medicine, a Bachelor of Laws, a Fellow of the Royal
Society, a Member of the Royal College of Physicians, and a Fellow of the
Royal College of Surgeons.

7q2. And you are Physician to the Hospital for Consumption at Brompton,
are you not ?
Yes.

793. You have recently been appointed, have you not, by the British Asso-
ciation to conduct a certain inquiry ?
Yes, for three years.

71)4. Will you state what the nature of that inquiry was ?

It was a general inquiry as to the precipe effect of prison discipline and
dietary upon the bodily functions of the prisoners. We have gone through an
elaborate series of inquiries, which have formed our first report ; and we should
have issued last year a second report, but the results of the inquir}' were im-
perfect. This year we shall be required to present a second report.

79"). I think that in that inquiry you had the sanction and assistance of the
Royal Societv :
Yes.

70(». Has the inquiry itst-lf extended over a large field of operations?

It occupied a month in inquiries at Coldbath Fields on the functions of four
prisoners, the aim being to determine precisely the ingesta, or the amount of
food taken into the body during the day, and the amount of material passino-
out of the body during the day under the different conditions of treadwheel
labour and of rest, and with the ordinary dietary and certain special kinds of
dietary, such as tea, coffee, alcohol, and fat. A similar inquiry was carried
out at Wakefield upon a number of prisoners, under Mr. JNJilner and myself,
who were a Committee appointed by the British Association. Mr. Miliier is
the resident surgeon at \\'akefipld, on the Government side of the prison.
There we determined the effect upon two tailors, taking theirs as light
labour, and upon two prisoners making the wide widths of mattins;, which is

gth March 1863.

(37. 3.)

lor

74 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

K Smith, Esq., for a manufacture very heavy labour, taking the same course as in the other

I.D., ll.b'., f.r.s. inquiry to determine precisely and scientifically the relation between the

ingcst'u and the egcsta, and to determine tlie effect of weight, and all questions

gth March 1863. ofthat kind incidental to it.

797. You extended this operation so far as to experiment upon yourself, did
you not ?

Yes, the experiments began upon myself. I have determined in many prisons
the effect of "treadwheel labour upon myself, and in several prisons the effect
of crank labour, the shot drill, and other punishments.

708. In fact, you have given the subject very considerable study and con-
side lation ?

It has formed a large part of my scientific work during the last seven years.

79(). Will you have the goodness to state to the Committee what woi'ks you
have written upon the subject ?

Tlicre were three pajiers read before the Society for the Promotion of Social
Science, two of which were publislaed in their transactions in 1857, and one
before the British Association in 1861. There were two papers read before
that time, but the report which I published separately was in the Transactions
of 1861. There were also three papers read before the Royal Society, and
published in the Philosophical Transactions, two in 1859 and one in 1861 : and
there have been a number of papers and short reports of experiments upon
myself read before the Committee of the Social Science Society, on Prison
Punishment and Reformation, and pubhshed in the "Philanthropist" in 1858.
A paper on a new scheme of prison dietar}' was piibUshed in the Dublin INIedical
Quarterly of 1860, I think.

800. In this inquiry you have considered, have you not, the effect not merely
of diet, but of punishment also, combined \^ ith it ?

Yes.

801. The Committee propose to examine you with regard to dietary, in the
first place, with reference to labour ; and dietary, in the second place, with
reference to punishment. Taking it under the first head, that of dietary in
reference to labour, I presume that you would adapt the division of labour into
hard and light ?

Yes.

802. The hard labour would ])robably include the treadwheel, the crank,
and machinery, and the lighter labour would include the picking of oakum and
trade instruction ?

Yes. The only i)oint that I find it difficult to arrange in that way is stone-
breaking. If we take amongst the hard labour the treadwheel, and all kinds
of crank labour, such as grinding, pumping and the ordinary hard labour
crank, and the shot drill, we have thi-ee well-defined species of hard labour.
If, on the other hand, we take as light labour the ordinary manufactures, not in-
chuiing the wide widths of matting, but taking the ordinary manufactures, such
as tailoring, the repairs of the prisons, the manufacture of the clothing of the
prisoners, rope-making, and I think you may include oakum-picking, then stone-
breaking might be added to hard labour ; but that must entirely deiiend u]jon
the amount of work that a man does ; he may make it light labour or heavy
labour, according to the exact amount of labour required of him, but I think it
must be classed amongst the hard labour.

803. "iou would have no hedtation in placing the trade instruction in the
class of light labour ?

No.

804. What is the amount of either hard or of light labour which you would
consider a fair projjortion during the day ?

I find it very dillicult to answer that question, inasmuch as the punish-
ments for hard labour are so various in their effects ui)on the system. 1 should
recpiire to consider each instrument of punishment, and then form an estimate
of the effect of it u]>on the body, before I couUl determine what the relation of
it would be with no labour, or with any other given kind of labour. At
present the influence of the punishments by the treadwheel and cranks of
every kind is extremely various, so that the waste of the body would vary
from about twice the ordinary amount up to five and a half times, and

yet

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE.

yet those punishments are given indiscriminately, so that I do not see how I can
answer that question precisely at present.

805. Assuming that the tread wheel be the engine which is to he employed
in hard labour, could you assign any hmit to it, in point of duration, for a d.iy's
work, as hard labour ?

I think that the system which is adopted at Coldbath Fields, which is 3^
hours of treadwheel labour, a quarter of an hour on the wheel, and a
quarter of an hour off the wheel, making 7h hours as a day's work (assuming
that the treadwheel work was regulated properly, with regard to speed and
other matters to give it uniformity of action;, would be a fair and proper day's
work at hard labour.

806. Are you of opinion that whatever be the labour, whether it be hard or
light, it should always be a full day's work ?

Yes ; I think it should be a full day's work.

807. How would you define a full day's work ?

I think with regard to manufactures, that a day's work ought not to be less
than 10 hours a day ; and with regard to hard labour it should be less, say "I
or 8 hours a day.

808. Are you aware that in the Act of Parliament, which regulates these
matters, 10 hours a day are assigned as the maximum for treadwheel labour?

I am not aware exactly; but I know that there is a maximum period, and
that there is also a maximum ascent beyond which they may not pass.

Sf-ij. Would you employ a prisoner on the same kind of labour during the
whole course of the da\', or would you vary it ?

I think it is very important to make the prison punishments absolutely
uniform, and that a certain degree of monotony in that uniformity is not
at all unwise. If, therefore, prison punishments could be devised, or could be
selected, which would each and all have the same effect upon the system, I think
that object would be met whether you varied them or not ; but if only one or
two were selected, my belief is, that it would be better to keep it uniform, and
have it all treadwheel labour, or all crank labour.

810. I'rom your experience, are you aware whether a large part of the day,
in a niajority of gaols, is spent in idleness ?

A ver}' large part of the day.

811. From what you have stated, I infer that you are averse to that ?
Yes ; 1 think it very injudicious.

812. Is it an object that hard labour should be more or less conducted in the
open air ?

I think that object very important, if there be a fair protection from the cold
and wind. Hard labour, of course, gives rise to a very much greater amount
of respiration than light laljour or no laboiu', and if it be performed in
the open air, the air breathed would be purer, and the other
would be more conducive to health.

E. Smith, Esq.,

M.D., LL.B., F.a.S.

arrangements

813. '1 he fundamental
view^ in considering this
health must be sustained
secondly, that the labour
possible ; and, thirdly, th;
good enough to state to
question, you have given

Quite so.

rule which the Committee would wish you to keep in
question of hard labour, wovild be first of aU, that
under any kind of discipline which is to be imposed ;
should be administered in the most economical form
it due punishment should be inflicted ; would you be
the Conuuittee whether, in your consideration of this
due weight to all these three points ?

814. With regard to the diet, I believe that in those prisons of which you
have had experience, the differences of diet are very considerable ?
■\''ery great.

8)5. Can you explain that to the Committee?

There is no uniform dietary enforced by the Government, and I think that
that is a fundamental defect. A dietary is recommended by the Home
Office, and any scheme of dietary must be sanctioned by the Home Secretary,

(37. 3.) K 2 but

gth March 1863.

7& MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

E. Smith, Esq., but there is none enforced, and the result is that the Visiting Justices of the
M.D., LL.B., F.u.s. different prisons adopt such a plan as seems to them to be good within the
gth ruli^ 18C3. li"iit« ^^"bich are allowed by the Home Secretary. Therefore "it seems to me

' th;it the want of an authorised and enforced system of dietary by the Home

Office is that which leads to all the diversity now existing in that respect.

816. The scale of dietary laid down by the Home Office has been adopted,
has it not, by a certain number of prisons ?

By about one-half of the number of the county prisons, I believe.

817. And of the remaining half, some are above and some below that
scale ?

Yes ; they are very different indeed.

81 S. Can you give any practical illustration to the Committee of the amount
of discrepancy which exists between those different diets ?

If we take the case of meat, which is perhaps the most striking case that we
can take, at the time that the report was published in 1857, of the "dietary for
convicts, &c." which I take as my authority in this question, at Cardiff gaol, they
allowed no meat whatever. On the other hand, the gaols in Middlesex allowed
six ounces of cooked meat on foiu- days in the week, and four ovmces ol cooked
meat on three days in the week ; and the same occurred also in Brecon gaol,
one of the Welsh gaols. That is for the highest class. On the other hand, for
the lowest class, there is in no gaol any meat allowed, and that dietary is ex-
tremely insufficient in all the prisons. A discrepancy occurs again in the
way that the classes of dietary correspond with the duration of the imprison-
ment. A person imjnisoned for seven or tburteen or twenty-one days, has a
much lower dietary than one imprisoned for a longer period. A discrepancy
occurs therefore in the length of time during which this very low dietary shall
be given in tiie different gaols, so that in Cardiff' gaol the higliest scale of
dietary begins after 14 days' imprisonment, whereas in many other
gaols it begins after four Biontlis, and the dietary being very meagre, even in
the highest class in C ardiff' gaol, renders the discrepancy so much the greater,
because it never can exceed the dietary which is given for that period.

819. Looking at the dietary as one pait of the sentence which it is required
should be carried out in prison, is there not the greatest variety as to the extent
of i)unishment intiicLcd upon different prisoners for the same offences in different
counties, or even in different parts of the same county ?

The greatest diversity, both in punishment and in the dietary.

8i?o. In dealing with this question, would it not be necessary, in the first
instance, to get at some uniformity of practice by determining the nutritive
value of the dietaries r

Without that nothing can be done. A return of the different dietaries is
quite valueless for reference at the present time, because it cannot be sum-
marised unless it could be reduced to the elements of nutrition, the nitrogen and
carbon contained in the food.

8.21. Do you believe that in many gaols there is a considerable excess of food
given at present r
Yes.

822. On what ground do you come to that conclusion ?

The quantity of nutriment supplied at the Wandsworth prison, which I have
been recently requested to determine from their scale of dietary, shows that
in the highest class, and I think also in the gaol at Coldbath Fields, the amount
of carbon furnished is nearly 37,000 grains per week ; whereas the quantity
Avhieh I believe to be necessary, and which I have recommended for the Lan-
cashire operatives, ought not to exceed 30,000 grains, so that there is an
excess of 7,000 grains of carbon in the Wandsworth dietary. Then, as I have
said before, the nu at at the Coldbath Fields jirison seems to me to be much
in excess of that which is obtained by the labouring poi)ulation of this country,
and therefore I think much in excess of what should be found in prison discipline.

823. The two elements with which, chemically, you have to deal are a certain
portion of carbon, and a certain portion of nitrogen ?

X es

824. The

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 17

S24. The nitroijen is an element which is supohed mainly by meat, is it E. Smith, Esq.,

not? " ' " M.D.,LL.B., r.U.S.

\iy nvixt, milk, eggs, an 1 che?se— these kinds of animal food, in fact, supply yth March 1863.

a larger portion of nitrogenous elements in relation to carbon than the vegetable

foods do.

825. Would it, in your opinion, be possible to construct such a dietary, by
either the employment of milk or of cheese, or of other food of a similar quality,
or by a combination of them, as would enable you to dispense in a great measure
with meat, and yet would sustain the health of the prisoners equally well I

1 am not at present able to say whether meat may be entirely dispensed with,
but taking the expression your Lordship made use of, " in a great measure,"' I
can quite answer that question in the affirmative.

826. Do you beheve tliat you might reduce the allowance of meat which is
granted in most prisons without in any way impairing or affecting the health of
the prisoners ?

Yes, I am quite sure that that might be done.

S27. Would you exjilain to the Committee a little on what principle you
would act in that case ?

It would seem to me that the right course of proceeding would be this, to
determine the amount of food which is necessary to maintain a person in fair
health in the open air, and to endeavour so to arrange that it shnll also maintain
the prisoner in health in a state of confinement. The difference of the two
conditions is mainly, or, perhaps, entirely this, that in confinement you have
less vital action in the body, less digestion of food, and less assimilation of food
or conversion of food into the tissues of the body. Jhe aim, therefore, should
be so to arrange the prison discipline that there shall be such an increase of
this assimilation over the present amount vvith inaction as shall enable the
cheap food which is sufficient for the support of an agricultural labourer to
keep the prisoner in health. If that be not not done, it will be necessary, as
we do at present, to give more nitrogen. With the deficient assimilation
existing in confinement, you must increase the meat or the milk — the
nitrogenous foods, in order to increase the vital action of the body; but if
you adopt the other course, that of giving them exercise and fresh air, such
as a labourer would have, you do not need to give a proportionhte increase
of nitrogen ; you therefore assimilate the conditions of a prisoner much
more to those of an ordinary labourer, and you will not give them a
dietary ]3^3rond that of any ordinary labourer, either in quantity or in
quality.

8:28. Therefore, are the Committee to understand from that answer that,
labour and meat both tending to stimulate the vital action of the body, labour,
to a certain extent, in your point of view, might l)e made a substitute for
that amount of stimulation which you would gain by meat ?

Quite so.

829. Lord President.'] I presume it is not merely the use of the muscles
which gives that power of assimilating, but it is the increase of nervous power
altogether ?

Yes, the increase of respiration is probably a fundamental question.

830. Would their being upon the treadmill produce the same effect upon a
man of 20, and another of 40 ?

Yes, the effect would be the same, if it were in the open air ; lee the other
conditions be the same, the effect would be the same.

831. Do you think the effect upon the mind has nothing whatever to do with
that ?

I think the mind may have some influence, but not very much over the
great m;iss of prisoners. If you take the case of a prisoner who has moved in
a higher station in life, the effect upon his mind may influence his vital powers
no doubt, but with regard to the great mass of prisoners, I do not think that
has any material influence, or that it much needs to be considered in the
question of prison discipline, if other things are duly considered.

(37. 3.) K 3 832. As

78 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

E. Smith, Esq., 832. As a general rule, a labourer feels some sort of interest in the work in

M.D., LL.B., F.R.s. yfiy^^i^ ijg jg employed; whereas a prisoner finds the treadwheel or the crank

9th March 1863. simply irksome ?

Yes, that is so, no doubt.

8.33- You think that the effect of imprisonment upon the mind or the
nervous system has nothing to do with the power of assimilating '

Practically speaking, not much, I think ; I of course assume that proper
exertion is to be made. Without the exertion, there might be a considerable
difference, but the exertion would take away the evil influence of the condition
of the mind.

S34. Cliainiuui.'] therefore, the point wliicli you would wish the Committee
to vmderstand is, first of all, is it not, that in many gaols there is a considerable
excess in the food, and especially the food of an animal nature which is now
allowed?

Yes.

83 v And, secondly, would you be prepared to say that there is a deficiency of
labour ?

I think there should be no imprisonment without labour, and therefore when
labour is not given, or is given very carelessly and very variably, as it is in dif-
ferent prisons, there must be a deficiency. But labour and exercise I would
take, in a mere medical sense, to be a certain amount of exertion in the open air.

836. Whenever you have a deficiency of labour, you miglit make either the
labour or the open-air exercise, whichever it be, more or less a substitute for
the amount of nitrogen which otherwise would be su})plied in meat ?

Yes, quite so.

837. Consequently, a farinaceous and vegetable diet, with possibly the same
nitrogenous element introduced, but kept subordinate to it, would be such as
would sustain the health of the prisoners, and might be used with safety ?

Yes. Perl)aps I should state, that in nature all carbonaceous food, such as
starch, is almost always found associated with a certain portion of nitrogen. In
bread, which is the staple of our dietary, and must be of every cheap dietary, the
proportion of carbon and nitrogen is one of nitrogen to 22 of cai'bon ; the propor-
tion in milk, taking the more expensive and the more nitrogenous dietary, is
one of nitrogen to 1 1 of carbon ; therefore double the quantity of nitrogen in
l^roportion to the carbon. If, therefore, you increase the labour, you are com-
pelled to increase the nitrogen, because you must increase the carbon, and
you must increase the nitrogen in the food in the same proportion as you would
increase the carbon.

838. Marquess of Salisbun/.'] Is it the labour that increases the nitrogen, or
is it the necessity of giving other food?

The necessity of giving more food ; with increased labour you must give
more food.

S3(). C/iainvaa.'] Consequently, ai-e the Committee to luiderstand that it is
a fallacy to suppose that the increase of hard labour of necessity involves the
increase of animal food ■■

I believe it is a fallacy. AVith the increase of labour you must give more
food, but that food may be of the cheaper kinds, the farinaceous kinds of food.
You do not need to give more milk and meat, which are the higher nitro-
genized forms of food, the labour supplying the vital stimulus sufficient for the
assiuiihition of the lower and cheaper kinds of food. I would just mention
to the Committee some most important experiments with reference to this
m.atter which luive been made very recently. Two German chemists,
Bis-chofF and Voit, at the same time that I was making experiments
on the treadwheel, put a dog in a spitwheel, which is a similar thing to
a treadwheel, and kept the dog at work for a number of days, and they
ascertained that the amount of nitrogen ])assing out of the body was not
in the least increased by the increase of exertion. The effect which came out
in my experiments on the treadwheel was almost identical with that — that
although you increase the waste of the body five or six times, yet during the
period of waste you shall not throw out of the body more nitrogen than you
throw out during rest, which is a very striking basis for the statement which I

have

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 79

have made now ; and if it do not come out of the body you do not need to £. Smith, Esq.,
put it in ; you do not need therefore with increased labour to give a proper- "•»•) ^^-^-i ^•^•^•
tionate increase of nitrogen. jj^ March 1863.

840. Would you therefore go so far as to say that in a strictly medical point

of view hard labour is necessary to a prisoner r

Yes, labour or exercise, to put it in that form.

841. Would you go further, and say that the want of that labour would be
calculated to produce a depressing effect upon the mind of a prisoner ?

Yes, and the prisoner would require a higher kind of food.

8^2. Consequently you are of opinion, are you not, that every prison system,
in a strictly medical point of view, ought to embrace labour as one of the
constituent and necessary parts of the system ?

Yes, I think so.

843. Reverting to what you mentioned just now with regard to the different
elements of diet, would you be good enough to state to the Committee what
you would consider to be the basis of prison diet ?

I think the basis should be the dietary which is in use by a large section of
the community, say our agricultural population ; that, should be the basis of an
experimental dietary, for at present we have not the information necessary to
enable us to construct a dietary M'hich shall be final, and thereto le in any ques-
tion of dietary, I should regaicl this as experimental, and that the basis should
necessarily be that which is known to sustain in health a large section of the
community, such as our agricultural population.

544. You believe that a dietary might be constructed upon a basis which,
if it did not absolutely exclude meat, wi)uld be able to exclude it to a very
considerable extent, and provide a substitute for it, which would equally sustain
the health of the prisoner ?

Yes ; I have the conviction, that a dietary may be framed which shall contain
a little milk, it may be, or bone liquor, or meat liquor, and which shall be
sufficient for all the wants of the system, with light labour, entirely excluding
meat.

545. When you come to increase that labour to hard labour, what would be
the proportionate addition which it would be necessary then to make to the
diet ?

In the experiments, I should have of course to calculate the effect of a
particular punishment upon the system, and as my experiments have enabled
me to make those calculations, I can ver}^ readily communicate them to the
Committee. If crank lal)our were the labour in question, the effect upon the
body during the period of the laljour, is to increase the waste from two to three
times, and since there would be, either with or without labour, the period of the
night when there would be no labour, taking the whole 24 hours, the increase
of the waste of the system on the whole 24 hours by the crank labour, is one
and-a-half. With regard to the tread-wheel, the increase of waste during the
period of its continuance is five and a half times ; but taking into account the
whole 24 hours, the increase is equal to twice. The increase of waste by the
shot-drill, with a 1(3 lb. shot is four times; and, with a 24 lb. shot, it is 4-1
during the period of labour ; as it is never employed for a whole day, I have
not calculated its effect over the 24 hours. The quantities I have named are
sufliciently accurate for all experimental purposes, and I should give the prisoner
an amount of food corresponding with that increase of the waste of the system.

8..|(>. Do you think it would be possible, proceeding on the basis of that
calculation, practically, to reduce that theory into a system of prison rules, and
to allocate, as it were, to each prisoner the amount of food which he ought to
have in jjroportion to the length of time that he is employed, and to the par-
ticular kind of labour upon which he is employed?

Unite so ; 1 believe that the effect of all prison punishments might be made
uniform, except where such an effect would be dependent \\\)on the variations
in the bodily health and strength of a prisoner, but the effect of all prison
punishments should be made uniform, and the diet may be arranged so as
exactly to meet the effect of that labour upon the system.

(37. 3.) K 4 S47. Earl

80 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

E. Smith, Esq., 847. Earl of Malme,shin-y.'] You stated did you not^ that meat could not be

M.D., LL.B., F.R.s. entirely dispensed with ?

Qth March iSGt ^ *^''^^^ ^^^^^ ^ ^^^^ "°^ ^"^'^ ^^'^^ ^^ Could be.

848. Are you aware that many thousands of our labourers in the south and

west of England, never eat any meat at all ?

I am not aware of that as an absolute fact ; I believe they eat but a very
small quantity of meat, but they do occasionally get it so far as I am informed ;
but at present we have nothing, 1 think, stated absolutely to that effect.

849. That, however, is the case in a very large jsortion of the country with
which I am acquainted ; indeed, I may say in several counties, that they live
upon bread and cheese and vegetables, and sometimes bacon, but perhaps that
only once a week; but what we should commonly call meat, they do not use; is
that the class upon which you would found the basis of the dietary of which
you spoke just now ?

Yes, that would be the class I should take, but I should reckon bacon is in
some sense meat, because although bacon consists very largely of fat, yet there
is a considerable quantity of animal tissue or nitrogenous matter in it ; and of
course the leaner parts have as much nitrogenous material as other meat has.

850. 'With regard to a subject which has been alluded to this morning, it has
been stated that the vital powers of prisoners fril in continement, especially at
first, and that that is occasioned by the impression upon their minds re-acting
upon their nervous system ; you stated, did you not, that if they took proper
exercise, in the majority of cases, that would not take place or at least to a
very small extent "-

Yes; perhaps I mav say that an experiment was made at Wakefield a few
years ago by which a short amount of extra exercise was given per week ; I
cannot say the exact amount, but it was only a short period ; yet it very mate-
riall}' reduced the extra diets which indicates that it m;iteri;dly increased the
health of the prisonei's; and the result of that experiment is now in print.

8.51. You are probably aware that the greatest number of prisoners of a
lower class, in fact, almost all who are found in our gaols have during their
previous lives been very irregular in their habits, and been accustomed to
imbibe a considerable quantity of alcoholic liquors ; that being the case, would
not the sudden stoppage of those stimulants i)roduce the effect which is said to
take place when they are first confined, and occasion a collapse of the vital
powei's ?

I do not know quite how to answer that question, because I do not know
that I could admit that there is the very large depression which the question
seems to indicate in a healthy state of the prisoners , and then as regards alco-
holic liquors, I do not admit them to be stimulants in the ordinary sense. I
do not think that they do necessarily increasi' the vital action ; 1 think that they
diminish vital action when taken in the quantity to which your Lordship refers,
and tlierefore that the al)sence of alcohol would rather tend to increase the vital
power.

85 J. If a man has been accustomed to drink a large or even a small quantity
of spirits or wine, and he is suddenly deprived of the means of continuing that
habit, does not he at first for some time experience a mental depression from
the want of those stimulants, and undergo a general collapse of the spirits and
of the strength r

I think he may feel it, but not in such a way as will interfere with his health,
assuming of course that the person is in fair healtli to start with.

8.53. Assuming that what has been so generally stated may be true, and that
under such circumstances a collaj^se of the vital ])(nvers is i)roduced, do you
think that if those men had been accustomed to drink a great quantity of beer
and spirits, the sudden deprivation of them would not l)e felt by them for a
considerable time after they are sent to prison r

Not so as to injure their health. I should state with reference to that that
those are questions which I have investiuated very thoroughly in the papers
which I have pubhshed, and the experiments made on the question of alcohol.
There is now a great difference of opinion with regard to the action of alcohol,
and the necessity for it, compared to wiiat w,is the state of things a few years

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 81

ago. It is not now believed that any material disadvantage would arise from E. Smith, Esq.,
the sudden stoppage of alcoholic stimulants, assuming the prisoner to be in a m.d., ll.b., f.r.s.
fair state of health. ^^^ ^^ ,83^^

854. You will understand me, that I do not insinuate that depriving them of —

spirits would eventually and permanently injure their health, because it would

probably improve it, but speaking of the effects when they are first imprisoned,
it, has been constantly stated, and we have had it in evidence before us, that
when prisoners aretirst imprisoned there is a great collapse of their vital powers.
Supposing that to be true, may not that be occasioned in the case of men who
are accustomed to drink stimulating liquors by their being suddenly deprived
of those liquors r

1 have said before, that I do not believe that that can occur in a way that will
injure health, or that will injure any function of their body.

855. Nor to occasion an}^ temjiorary difference in their health ?

No ; I should think that a plan such as I have been mentioning, where,
from the beginning, you would give the prisoner sufficient food and sufficient
exercise in the open air, would prevent that collapse of which your Lordship has
been speaking.

856. With regard to the increase of food necessary to a man taking exercise,
have vou observed that men in good healtli taking a considerable amount of
regular exercise, gain in weight as compared with their former weight when
they were leading a sedentary life, although the quantity of food consumed be
the same at both periods f

Yes, but do I understand the question to be this, that having taken a certain
amount of exertion, and that exertion having ceased, they gain weight.

857. Supposing a man, as many of us do, pass half the year in a sedentary mode
of life, and afterwards take a considerable deal of exercise, but living under the
same conditions of food, does he gain weight when he takes exercise rather than
when he passes a sedentary existence.

When that occurs, it must be from that which has already been mentioned,
namelv, that with the increase of labour, and the increase of respiration in the
open air, you increase the functional activity of the system, and thereby the
assimilation of food ; but I do not think that that can be taken as a universal state-
ment ; on the other hand, in prison discipline, at first the prisoner almost always
loses weight, even with a fair dietary, but that loss of weight is not a loss of flesh
in the sense in which it is generally understood ; it is the loss of fluid passing
from the body, and of fat. Therefore the converse might as well be stated ; if
any of us for a short period do not take our usual exercise we gain weight,
not because we have increased in flesh, but increased in fat and the fluids con-
tained in our bodies.

8.58. The amount of weight is not a proof of health ?

No.

859. And the diminution of weight is not a proof of losing health ?

Not at all ; it may be the reverse sometimes.

S60. Then that substance which you do lose under those circumstances is
not the healthy part of your system ?

It is not even a necessary part of the system ; supposing we took a Turkish
bath, we should lose perhaps three pounds weight by perspiration, and if a person
could afford to lose three pounds of fluid from the blood and tissues he would
be all the better for it, but if he were a thin person, and could not afford to
lose it, of course he would be so far injured by it.

86 1. Earl Cnt/icart.'] With regard to a question which has been put to you
last, you stated that the necessity for additional food would be done away with,
if more exercise were given ; in speaking of exercise, you refer, do you not, to
exercise in tlie open air ?

Yes.

86'.^. When you answered the question you did not mean that more exercise
in mat making, or in any in-door occupation, would do away with the necessity
for additional food ; but you referred to exercise in the open air r

I think that it should be arranged with regard to all occupations that the
(37. 3.j L prisoners

82 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

E. Smith, Esq., prisoners should breathe good air ; it does not follow that it should be open
M.n , I.L.B., F.u s. air, but good air, of which the effect would be the same.

9th March 18G3. 863. When there are a large number of prisoners together in the prison

workrooms, the fluffy matter and other things so contuminate the atmosphere

that you would not expect it to be very pure ?

The aim should be to make it pure. I know that it is not altogether pure at
present.

864. When you answered the question of tho noble Lord, did you mean
exercise in the open air or labour within doors ?

Labour, apart from every other question, will increase the vital action of the
body, whatever that labour may be, and however small in degree. 1 cannot
move my hand without increasing the vital power in an appreciable manner,
in a degree which I can scientifically estimate ; but if it be in the open air it
will increase the health much more than if the air be impure.

865. Referring to a question which has been put to you with regard to the
depression caused by the powers of mind and the influence of the mind upon
the body, are you acquainted with the last work written by Sir Benjamin
Brodie, his " Psychological Inquiries" ?

I have read it.

8fi6. You remember that in that book he recognises the immense importance
of considering the influence of the mind vipon the body ; do you not concur
with Sir Benjamin Brodie in reference to that?

The influence of the mind upon the body is, no doubt, very considerable.

867. You rather surprised me in your answer to the noble Lord President's
question, that you did not attach so much importance to the influence of the
mind upon the body as I had been led to attribute since reading what Sir
Benjamin Brodie has written upon the subject ; but with regard to your medical
reading, have you not read that there is an immense difference between the
advance of an army and the retreat of an army with respect to the feelings of
the oflicers and the men ; that is to say, in the advance they are full of spirits,
but in the retreat they are weak and dispirited ?

I have no doubt of it.

868. The more the mind is depressed, and the more intellectual the prisoner
is, the more liable is he to catch that impression ?

I have little doubt of it.

860. Have you not read that in the Foundhng Hospital at Paris they tried
to feed the children upon a Uquor made with bones in an apparatus like a
digester ?

Those experiments were made by what was called the " Gelatin Commission,"
and they ascertained that they could not feed dogs upon bone liquor ; but we
have ever since questioned the results obtained from this very ground, that they
gave them only bone hquor, and it is manifest that no animal can Hve upon
bone liquor only ; but whether that liquor may be made a part of the dietary is
quite a different question ; and when I take gelatine, which is a material ob-
tained from bones, I find that it is transformed'iuto the nitrogenous compounds
which pass out of the body, and therefore it must be useful as food.

870. Are you not aware that the children at the Foundling Hospital in Paris
who were fed upon this bone liquor (of course there was other food given with
the bone liquor, such as bread and other things), became exceedingly scro-
fulous ?

I am not aware of that experiment.

871. Are vou aware that a number of persons cannot adopt a milk die!
at all ?

There are very few, speaking generally. As physician to the Consumption
Hospital, where I have; to order milk in all my cases (and I have many thou-
sands of them), I find that if the milk be varied in quantity, and given hot, and
sometimes skimmed milk be given where new milk cannot be taken, very tew
per.-ons, speaking in a general sense at any rate, could be found by whom milk

could not be taken.

872. You

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 83

872. Vou state that you would give exerdse in the open air, and not so E. Smith, Esq ,

much meat ; l^earing in mind the g-reat variation in the cHmate of this country, md-, li-b • f.u.s

what species of open-air exercise would you propose to give the prisoners r \i~TT ->(•■

The best kind of exercise I think that I could suggest is stone-breaking ; ~ ^^^^^^^ '3-
that meets tlit' question in almost every aspect.

St.S- Are you aware that stone -breaking is not remunerative at all, and that
the expense of brin^iing the stone into the yard, and carting it out again, is
more than the value of the labour bestowed upon breaking that stone ?

That may be so. I do not know that ; but I think this, that the eifect of
the system would be the best of any punishment that could be devised for
prison discipline, in reference to health and as discipline also, because the
punishment is rather degrading in its natvu'e ; it is also exercise in the open air,
and it should be in some places remunerative.

874. You are aware that, out of doors, it is considered the occupation mostly
of old people ; and that people who are incapable of other work are employed
in stone-breaking in rural districts ?

It is very likely.

■S75. So that if stones were all broken in prison, it would have a material
effect upon the means of gaining a livehhood of a great many most respectable
persons ?

There is a great demand for broken stones in towns ; therefore I believe that
that objection would not apply universally.

876. With regard to the diet of the labouring class, you are aware that it
differs most materially in different parts of the countr)' ?

It differs in the names of the food used. I do not think it differs so much
in the nutritive materials contained in the food.

877. Do you not attribute much importance to the experience of all the gaol
surgeons throughout the country, who have constantly had the regulation of
the diet of prisoners under their supervision r

When I see the greatest possible diversity in the labour enforced, in the
rotation of that labour, and in the dietaries, and that the dietaries depend
merely upon the duration of the punishment, I cannot see any necessity in
the case. I could not, therefore, inform myself as to what are the opinions
of the surgeons upon that point.

878. Have you not considered the extraordinary diversity which there is in
different sentences for the same offence ?

I know that there is a great diversity in that respect.

879. Do not you tliink that the carrying out of the system of diet in different
prisons depends in a great measure upon the experience of the surgeons ?

I think if there were a basis diet adopted, which would be proved upon good
principles to be sufficient for the prisoners in ordinary conditions, then the
surgeon must have power to increase it in states of ill health, or those tendino-
to ill health.

880. Do not you think that the increase of the dietary by the surgeon
would be the rule and not the exception "r

Tlie aim should be that the standard dietary should not be too low, but
sufficient to maintain the system in the condition in which it is placed.

881. I observe in one of the last Inspector's Reports, that in one prison the
surgeon gave ale to above .50 of the prisoners ; could you conceive any circum-
stance which would justify a surgeon in so doing r

I should not do so myself, certainly ; but there is a great difference of
opinion amongst medical men on this subject, arising out of their imperfect
knowledge of the action of alcohol. On many of those questions I should say
that science is gnatly increasing our knowledge, and that we must not take
authorit)- as our guide always.

882. Is not the giving of molasses a cheap form of administering carbon to
the system \

It is one of the forms, and it is considerably cheaper than sugar, but it is
much dearer than starch. In my report on the nourishment of the Lancashire
operatives J have shown that sugar is three times dearer than oatmeal as a
nutrient, omitting any reference to the nitrogen contained in the oatmeal.

(37. 3.) L 2 883. Are

Smith,

Esq.,

M.D.;

, LL.B.,

r.R.s.

gth

Maich

1863.

84 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

883. Ave you aware that in cattle feeding, and the feeding of pigs, molasses is
frequently given as a cheap means of administering carbon to the animal system ?

Yes, but Lavves and Gilbert, who are the great authorities upon those ques-
tions, have shown tliat sugar is three or four times dearer than starch in its
fattening properties upon cattle.

>'-'S-i. Could you put in a statement of the diet, which is considered the
standard of diet as allowed in one half of the prisons in the country, which you
have already referred too ?

I have not such a statement, but it is in the " Dietary for Convicts, &:c."
which was published in 185/ by the Government.

855. Would you refer to that dietary and tell the Committee in what
manner you would alter the diet table if you were going to propose a standard ?

I am quite familiar with it ; I think that the lowest class is so low that the
system could not be sustained upon it.

886. Chainnan.'] Would it not sustain an individual for a short time only:
I think that every day the system must lose.

887. Earl Cathcart.'] Will you take the lowest class of dietary at page 45, and
state what it is — take breakfast first ?

At breakfast they are all allowed a pint of oatmeal gruel, which contains two
ounces of oatmeal, and two ounces of oatmeal will furnish 350 grains of carbon
and \7h grains of nitrogen ; on each alternate day the gruel is sweetened with
I oz. of sugar or molasses, which will give 131 grains of carbon. The quantity
which I have recommended for the Lancashire operatives, and which is, I think,
only that which is necessary for the wants of the system, is 1,400 grains of
carbon for breakfast and 70 grains of nitrogen ; therefore two ounces of oatmeal
bear no proportion whatever to the wants of the system ; 1 lb. of bread is also
taken at dinner, or divided between the three meals, and therefore of course
that must be taken into account ; and a pint of oatmeal gruel is also given for
supper. The total daily nutriment is, carbon 2,791 grains, and nitrogen 124
grains.

888. Marquess of Salisburi/.] Could you put that in in the shape of a return ?
Yes, I will do so.

889. Earl Cathcart.] Do you consider Class I. of the Secretary of State's
dietary suflicient r

I think it totally insufficient-

890. Do you think that it is totally insufficient even for a small man :
It is totally insufficient for any man.

891. Then for a very large man it is almost starvation.
It is starvation.

892. Chairman.] Are you speaking now with regard to the dietary of '•' con-
victed prisoners confined for any term not exceeding seven days " r

Yes ; I should like always, in speaking of this subject, to refer to what takes
place on one day. I say that on the particular day on which you give the
prisoners this food it is insufficient, and therefore the less the number of days,
the less the injury, and the greater the number of days the greater the injury.
The evil occurs rather in those persons who are often committed for sliort
periods. When it happens only once or twice, I am informed that it has little
influence practically, but it is when they are frequently recommitted for short
sentences that material injury is caused to their health.

893. Earl Cathcart.] What is your opinion of Class II. ?
I should think that insufficient also.

894. What is your opinion with regard to Class III., the dietary for " Con-
victed i)risoners employed at hard labour for terms exceeding 21 days, but not
more than six weeks r"

I should think that that scale is abundant ; there is more meat than is neces-
sary, generally speaking, both in Class III. and Class IV. and Class V. 1 con-
sider with regard to meat. Classes III. and IV. are abundant.

895. Is it not often the case in the longer terras of imprisonment that occa-
sion arises for additional food ?

Not in the way that I have been speaking of. If you give them from the

first

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 85

first a sufficient dietary and a sufficient amount of exercise in the open air to -£'. Smith, Esq.y
enable them to digest their food, then there is no necessity for increasing |tlie *'■'*•' '-'••^•» *'-R-s-
food with the duration of the imprisonment. 1^ jyj^j, jg{ „

896. Have you noticed, in your visits to various prisons, that the prisoners
have generally a blanched and bloodless look ?

Yes, I have noticed that.

897. To what do you attribute it?^

Merel)' to the want of due assimilation of the food, and that may be proved
in another way. The amount of faeces passed by all the prisoners in our
experiments, was 10 ounces a day, whilst the amount passed by ordinary
members of the community, is only four. There you find a waste of material
passing off from the prisoner to an amount equal to that contained in a pint
of milk a day, which shows that the prisoners' blanched appearance is owing
to their deficient assimilation of food.

898. When you treat cases of insanity, do you not give the patient very
nutritious food ^

It is very important to do so.

899. Would not the influence of insufficient diet be to superinduce insanity ?
It would of course lower their physical condition, and therefore have a

tendency in that direction.

900. Are you aware that insanity prevails to a great extent in prisons where
there is an insufficiency of diet?

I am not aware of that as a fact.

90 1 . You stated, that you object very much to prisoners passing their time
in idleness ; when you speak of idleness, do you refer to the case of prisoners
who are put into cells on purpose that they may reflect, and that minds may
re-act upon themselves r

I can only speak of it in a medical sense, and in that point of view I am sure it
would injure the health. Solitary confinement, without labour, I should object
to, so far as health is concerned ; in that case, the system would go down in spite
of anything that you could do, and in spite of any diet that you can give.

902. Duke of Marlhoroug]i.~\ In answer to the question put to you by the
noble Lord, you have just stated, that in some prisoners who had a blanched
look, there was a greater waste from the system, than in the case of persons in
the ordinary state of life. To what do you attribute that greater waste ?

To the passing out of material unused ; I do not refer to the waste of the
system, but to the waste of food.

903. To what do you attribute that ?

To defective assimilation, due to defective vital action.

004. Do you mean defective digestion ?

Yes; and a further act, which is called assimilation, which is the absorption
of the digested food and its conversion into the tissues of the body. Those two
acts may be separated partly, but they will generally go together.

90,5. To what do you attribute that defective assimilation ?

To whatever forms a component of the confinement, to the effect upon the
mind (whenever that effect occurs), of deficiency of exercise, to the want of
movement of the air which is necessary to the vital actions of the system, and
where confinement is maintained in cells, to deficiency of light. All these things,
the deficiency of light, the diminished purity and decreased movement of the
air, and the deficiency of exercise, must have an eflfect upon the man ; and all
these will occur together in the conditions of confinement.

906. Then the Committee are to understand that you consider exercise to be
indispensable in order to produce that assimilation which is requisite to
health ?

Quite indispensable.

Q07. With regard to such work as mat-making and those employments which
would be conducted in a sitting posture, such as breaking stones or anything of
that sort, would those be descriptions of exercise which would conduce to the
proper assimilation of the food ?

(37.3.) L3 I think

86 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

E. Smith, Esq., I tliink you must have movement of the whole body in addition to that. The

M.D., LL.B., F.B.s. effpcj Qf ordinar)- manufactures is to increase the waste of the body during" the
«.i, %A T ,er„ period of work to about one-half more than that occurriu"' at rest ; but in the

Qtn March )f<o3- t^ . i-i, -i ., ... .", ,.

exercise which they give tliem in tlie round ring m prisons, where tlie speed is

about three miles an hour, the waste is about three times the amount of that
ordinarily proceeding from the body.

908, In the comparisons which you have given, you suggested, did vou not,
that the prison diet should be assimilated as much as possible to the diet used
by aijricultural labourers in diflferent parts of the country :

Yes.

qo(). Are not the species of occupations which prisoners might be expected
to follow in gaols rather those of a manufacturing population thitn what agri-
cultural labourers would pursue ; for instance, are not such occupations 'c\r> mat-
making aud stone-breaking in a great degree sedentary occupations not
involving the motion of the entire body, as is the case with the agricultural
labourer ?

Yes ; I think the difference is, that in one case you have less exposure to the
open air, and a less general movement of the body ; but both conditions can be
met by giving periods of exercise alternating with periods of mat-making.

Qio. Have you ever in the course of your experiments endeavoured to ascer-
tain wiiat is the amount of waste upon the body of persons engaged in weaving,
or any of those pursuits -which persons fellow in manufacturing towns .-

Mv experiments have only been made with walking and all kinds of labour
in which the body alrogether is moved, and the effect of walking at certain
definite rates of speed ; my endeavour has been to compare all other labour to
walking at definite rates ; at present no experiments have been made upon
labour conducted in a sitting posture only.

oil. Would it not l)e very important that experiments should be made in
that particular branch of labour, in order to see how far prison labour, which
is assimilated to that more than any other, can be judged of by comparison
with it ?

It Avould be very valuable ; but we know the limits of waste ; we know that
it cannot exceed 1 3 in ordinary cases.

012. You stated, did 3'ou not, that there is great disparity of diet in the
different prisons r
Yes.

Q13. In some prisons the diet, as prescribed bj' the Home Office, is not fol-
lowed ; aud, in fact, diet of a much more genercus kind is allowed in those
prisons. If you were asked, what should you say is the prevailing opinion
among the prison authorities in those cases where an over-generous diet is
allowed r

1 think that that has arisen in this way ; it was found with the low diet, in
former times, that the s}'stem gave way, and the prisoner sank in health ; and
when it was referred to persons of distinction to recommend a dietary to meet
that deticienc}-, they recommended this higher dietary ; but as there were not
sufficient scientific data existing with i-egard to the food question, they could not
make a calculation by which to determine accurately what should be the increase.
They fell into a very natural error, and have given an excess. At the present
time if I were to be required to frame a new scheme of dietary with the
deficient knowledge that we have (and accurate knowledge could not he ob-
tained except by experiments in prisons), 1 should be obliged to err on the
safe side, and give too much.

914. Do vou suppose that it would be possible eventually, taking into
account the differences of constitution, to frame a uniform scale of dietary for
all prisons ?

I cannot see the least difficulty, only that we should require a large amount
of certain kinds of knowledge which are necessary. For example, the points
upon which we are at pre-ent deficient in knowledge are these : we want to
determine precisely the effect of mere confinement upon the system ; we only
know, in a i^eneral wav, that it does depress the system ; but it must be deter-
mined i^recisely. Then we want to determine precisely the effect of meat,

whether

SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 87

whether meat is necessary in any quantit}-, and in what quantity it is necessary-. £. Smith, Esq.,
Then, whether fat, which is a dearer food than starch, with which it is analugous ''•''•' i-i-b., f.r.«.
in coniposilion, can be supplanted by starch, or in what proportion it must be . j^^^jj, jgg„

givrn. We must also know what is the precise effect upon the system of ^ .

those various punishments which are to be recommended ; and having first of
all decided upon those punishments of a definite kind, we must then know what
would be the amount of food necessary to meet that particular case ; so that we
have many subjects about wliich we are at present ignorant, and which
are absolutelv necessary- to be understood before we can form a new scheme of
dietar}-, but all of which information can be obtained by proper experiments in
prisons.

9 1 5. If it were put into your hands to carry out such a scheme, how would
vou pro]icse to determine those points ?

I should first take a basis dietary, such as is used by the agricultural popula-
tion, and such as I think would be suitable for persons condemned to light
labour, or not to hard labour ; with thut dietary I should think it necessary
that they should have so Ji.uch exercise, or so much labour in the open air as
should induce the whole of that food to be assimilated. That is the great diffi-
culty which must be overcome by experiment, namely, to find out what amount
of labour is necessary with a given dietary to enable the whole of the food to
be assimilated. For that purpose it would be necessarj' to take, perhaps, five
prisoners of average age and power, and place them upon this dietary — to deter-
mine every day the effect upon the weight of the body, the colour of the blood,
and a so the effect upon tb.e excretions — that is to say, to prove whether due
assimilation occurs by determining the amount of food passing off by the
faeces ; that is the only scientific inquiry which is necessary. If it be shown
that the whole of the faeces were so reduced in nutritive vdue as to be only
eijual to that of an ordinary individual of the community, then we should suppose
that a proper proportion of the food was assimilated.

916. Would you follow out those experiments with regard to hard labour as
well r

Yes. Having first ot" all settled the previous question (which might require a
great deal of variation in regard to the elements of food), with regard to light
labour, and having determined also the propcrticnate effect of the different kinds of
hard labour upon the system, T should be able to devise experimentally a
scheme of diet which would meet the case. I should take five persons upon
each of the systems of hard labour, and put them upon that dietarj-, and deter-
mine hi the same way the effect of this food upon them. In the course of
twelve months 1 have no doubt that a sufficient number of experiments would
have been made to settle the whole of these questions.

917 In order to determine any question of that sort accurately, it would be
necessary to have some species of labour which would be vmiform in its character
in all prisons. Do you think that it is possible to devise any scale of hard labour
which could be so uniform in its character "r

We can do that, except v\ith regard to those conditions which are inherent to
each individual body, such, for example, as weight. If we take the treadwheel,
for example, which is a very good form of punishment for that purpose, and so
arrange t!iat the prisoner can stand upon his centre of gravity, that is to say,
so arrange the bar above the wheel that the centre of gravity should also be
the centre of his body, and be not thrown in front of his body as it is now,
and if we regulate the speed of the wheel, in that way we should determine
accurately and uniformly the effect upon the system. The only difference would
be caused by the weight of the individual. concerned. If, say, I am 200 lbs. weight,
and you put me upon the treadwheel, I have to lift three tons through one foot
per minute, whilst a person wlio only weighs 100 lbs. may only have to lift one
and half t-ms per minute, so that there is great variation.

018. In the strict application of the treadwheel to these questions, do I
rightly understand you to state that the treadwheel, as at present constructed,
aliov.s of very great variations in the amount of labour which it imposes upon
jivisoners ?

Yes, according to the rapidity of ascent, and according to the position in
which the body is held. If the body is allowed to stand upon its centre of

f37. 3-) L 4 granty,

ai V.

538 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

E. Siuith, Esq., gravity, the amount of waste of the body is less than it would be if it were
^'"°-' FR-s. hanging behind its centre of gravity.

&th Alarch 1S63. pifj_ l\\en 1 understand you that the treadwlieel is capable of considerable
mechanical improvement, so that it may be made to administer a far fairer
amount of h;ird labour than it does now ?

Yes ; it can be made, 1 believe, an uniform punishment for persons of the same
weight, and also uniform with regard to ascent.

920. We have been considering the question of diet in a sanitary point of
view ; what do you conceive would be the injurious effect of the present high
dietary in any other point of view ?

I should think that the effect must be very prejudicial, in this way, that per-
sons do not object to going to prison ; there is not so much to deter them from
prison, and therefore to deter them from crime, as there ought to be ; I think
that by a system in which the food is only just sufficient to meet the wants of
the human frame, and where it is of a very simple kind, and where the system
is one rather of punishment, you will deter persons from crime much more
than you do, under present circumstances.

921. I understood you to state, that with increased exercise a much lower
dietary might be administered with perfect safety ; do you consider that in the
present system, with a deficiency of exercise, and with a high dietar}% there is
anything injurious to health ?

I think that the main difference is the loss of food ; that you lose a great deal
of food every day ; but there is, in addition, the moral effect upon the prisoner.

922. So that there is a great waste of food which you may look upon in an
economical point of view, as well as in a sanitary point of view r

Quite so.

923. "When you speak of conducting experiments on prisoners, is there any
power to conduct those experiments now ?

Ihe Home Secretary has the power of authorising experiments in prisons,
I believe.

924. You are not aware of any power, besides that of the Home Secretary's,
to conduct those experiments ?

No.

925. Have the Visiting Justices power in prisons to order experiments of
that nature ?

It could not be done as a matter of right ; they would have no power, in the
strict sense of the word. Those experiments which I made at Coldbath Fields
were made with the concurrence of the Visiting Justices, and without an appli-
cation to the Secretary of State. I think that all those experiments such as we
are speaking of, would have to be made by a prison official of competent
scientific knowledge, such as an inspector of prisons should be, or by a scientific
officer appointed for the purpose.

926. Eaii of Hotnnet/.] You think that the present system does the prisoner
harm, and is also a loss to society ?

Quite so.

927. AVith regard to the dietaries, Class I. and Class \l., you said that you
thought tliey were too low ; do you think that in a case of a person imprisoned
for any time not exceeding seven days, would be likely to receive any harm to
his constitution by being on that dietary for so short a time ?

It might not be a degree of harm that yon could define, but as I mentioned
before, it is the repetition of these seven days, in the case of persons committed
over and over again that has been proved to have a most prejudicial influence
upon the system, and we can prove that for every day he is confined he is re-
ceiving injury, and that his system is not receiving so much as it is giving
out.

92 S. Strictly speaking, when a prisoner is in prison, those in authority are
boimd, are thev not, to give him the diet as had down bv law ?
Yes.

929. With regard to the diet, you have stated that you would take as a
basis the amount of food which is used by the largest number of common

agricultural

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 89

ag;ricultural labourers; do not 3^011 think that there is a great distinction e. Smitli, -Es/j.,

between the condition of agricultural labourers and those broken down consti- m.d., ll.b., r.K-s:.
tutions which prisoners generally have ? ~ ^

I do not know for a fact that the system is generally broken down in ^ '^^

prison.

930. I mean that the men themselves when they come into prison are broken
down in constitution to a great extent by their habits of life ?

I believe that they have a lower grade of health, as ascertained in a general
manner, than other classes of the community, but not so much so that the
term " broken down " would apply to them, speaking generally.

931. They are injured by their habits of living, are they not?
Yes.

932. '^'ou stated that you thought it was not of very great importance to
change the labour, and that it would be undesirable with regard to hard labour
to shift the nature of the hard work, that is to say, to have the prisoners
employed jiart of the time on the treadwheel, and part of the time at the crank,
and part of the time in stone breaking ; that you thought it better to keep
them at one employment during the day. What is your reason for thinking .
that ?

I think that you would get a more uniform system by that means ; and the
fact of monotony occurring in prison punishments, if the punishments be
themselves right, and be sufficiently met by food, is an advantage in prison
discipline.

933. So far as discipline is concerned, you would prefer uniformity ?
Yes, I think there should be uniformity with regard to discipline.

934. But, medically speaking, you would prefer variation, would you not ?
\es, I shoidd think so, provided that the effect of the same punishment was

the same upon the system, not as is the case now, when they would ]3ut a
prisoner upon the treadwheel one day, and put him to oakum picking the next
day, and call them both hard labour.

935. Do you think that it is desirable for health to get all the pai-ts of the
bodv into action in the course of the day ?

Yes.

936. With regard to the treadwheel and the crank, would not each of them
bring into play one particular portion of the body and not others ?

The treadwheel, I think, affects nearly all portions of the body; the prisoners
hang by the hands, and the muscles at the back are strained to maintain the
body in its centre of gravity, and they are using the legs at the same time.

937. Having regard to all those conditions, you think that it is desirable that
thev should be emploved at one time ?

Yes.

938. Do you think that there is anything in the treadwheel that is injurious
to a man, as producing rupture, varicose veins, or anything of that sort ?

Yes ; but not, perhaps, more than in other systems of punishment, having
the same effect upon th(^ system. For instance, in affections of the heart, you
■would not put a prisoner on the treadwheel, ])ecause the action of the heart
amounts to from TiO to 160 pidsations per minute on the treadwheel ; neither
would you put a person on the treadwheel with asthma or any affection of the
chest, because the amount of respiration, instead of being 40 cubic inches each
respiration, becomes 100 cubic inches; neither would you put any prisoner
with any deformity upon the treadwheel, but only persons with a fair amount
of health.

939. You would recommend the use of common discretion in the treatment
of prisoners as well as on any other subject ?

Just so.

940. Is there any difficulty in detecting heart disease ?
Not if care be taken by a proper person.

(37.3.) M 041. Do

90 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

E. Smith, Esq., 94 1 . Do you know whether it is the duty of the surgeon of a prison to
ii.D., LL.B. F.R.s. examine info those things, and see whether a prisoner is or is not fit to be put
9thM^i863. "ponthe wheel ? , ^^ . . . ^ ^ ^ ,

It IS his duty; whether it is carried out, 1 do not know. There are but few-
prisons in the country in which there is a resident surgeon, and therefore many
of those medical questions are insufficiently attended to on that very ground.

942. If a prisoner complained as he came off the wheel, would it not be the
proper course to take, that the surgeon should go up to the wheel and
examine him at the time that he comes off?

I do not know that tliat would very much affect the issue.

943. Do you know whether it would make much difference if you examine
him one or two hours afterwards in his cell ?

Of course the effect of the prison punishment wouldjpass away when he is in
a state of rest.

944. If it was a doubtful case, the surgeon ought to go up to the wheel and
examine the prisoner, ought he not ?

Yes, if it were a doubtful case, I think so.

945. It is quite easy to detect the conditions of heart disease, is it not ?
Yes, generally speaking, it is so.

946. Duke of Marlborough.'] Do you believe that it would be a case of rare
occurrence that a disease of the heart should exist and not be detected by the
surgeon, and that a prisoner might be put upon the treadwheel and go througti
his labour, and come off the treadwheel again without the heart affection beiug
detected, so that gradually a heart affection might be developed ?

I think it is very possible. I should think the prisoners are not examined
as to the condition of the heart and lungs, or not examined in all cases ; but
I have no positive knowledge upon that point.

947. Earl of Romney.'] Are you largely acquainted with prisons?

It has been my experience to get much into them, and to make mvself
acquainted with them, but I have no official position in connexion with them.

94S. Afe you aware that almost a constant business in prisons is hearing
complaints from prisoners, making excuses, sometimes with good reason, and
sometimes with bad, to get off their labour ?

I should suppose that very likely.

949. It is not very likely that a man, if he had a complaint of the heart,
would not cry out in sufficient time ?

I think that every prisoner should have his heart and lungs examined on
entering prison, and that that should be recorded on his entry into prison, before
he is put to hard labour ; but whether that is done as a rule I doubt very much.
Disease of the heart frequently exists without the person being aware of it.

9.50. Duke oi Marlborough.'] Would it not be a proper precaution to take,
that the surgeon should examine the prisoner after he comes off the tread-
wheel rather than before he goes on ; and would not the action of the heart
upon his coming off the wheel, supposing that the examination took place
immediately, be a more sure indication of any disease than it would be before
he goes on ?

No ; diseases of the heart are best determined when a man is in a state of
quietude.

0.5 1 . Karl of Romney.] Do you know that it is the duty of the surgeon to be
at the prison every day ?

I believe it is once or twice a day.

952. And to examine every prisoner when he comes in ?

Yes ; but whether he examines into the state of the lungs and the heart as we
understand by examination is another question- What the profession understand
by examination of the lungs and heart is not a mere visual examination.

9,53. Earl of Ducie.] You have stated, have you not, that a strictly regulated
diet, in wliich there is no surplus whatever, but in which the prisoners have

exactly

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 91

exactly enough to meet the waste of the body, would rather tend to deter E. Smiih, Esq.,
prisoners from crime ? m.d., ll.b., f.h.s,

I should think so.

9.-'54. At the same time you state that the low diet for short sentences in
Class 1 is insufHcient, and may be mischievous when often repeated ?
Quite so.

955. Do not you think that if a strictly regulated diet tends to deter from
crime an excessively low diet, ct fortior'i, will tend in a greater degree to keep
men from crime?

It is a question whether the diet should be used as an instrument of punish-
ment. Sir James Graham in the instructions given to the Commissioners who
framed this dietary, stated distinctly that it should not be made an instrument of
punishment ; but it is impossible in looking at this dietary to see that it is not
the most powerful instrument that the justices possess, and that it is used as
an instrument of punishment.

956. Short sentences are frequently given, are they not, on purpose to insure
very low diet, which shall be looked upon as a punitive measure ?

Then that is evidence that it is used as an instrument of punishment, contrary
to Sir James Graham's instructions to the Commissioners.

957. That is the case also in the Government dietaries, is it not ?
The lowest class of Government diet is quite insufficient.

9.5S. You admitted, in answer to a question, the injurious effect of depression
under certain circumstances out of doors. Are you aware that that depression
to a great extent exists among prisoners ?

Yes, I believe that it exists, but not to an extent to injure the health, provided
that there be sufficient exertion in the open air.

959- But mental depression is not a thing of frequent occurrence to any
great extent, is it ?

It would not affect any system of discipline and dietary, provided other things
were made suitable to the condition of the prisoner.

960. You state that there is no difficulty in framing a general dietary for
prisons ; would the geographical position of a prison, as to \\ hether it stood high
or low according to the conditions of the neighbouring atmosphere, affect the
question in any way ?

I think not. We should not be able, in framing a dietaiy, to come within a
few grains of carbon, neither attempt it, because of the variations in the weight
of the body ; we should take a medium, which would be found to be a little in
excess for the light ones, and a little in defect for the heavy ones.

901 . It has often been urged that where the position of a prison is geographi-
cally low. a much higher scale of diet would be necessary ; in your opinion, is
that a fallacy ?

I should think that if the position were so low as to diminish the vital powers
of the system, the men must either have more exercise or more highly nitro-
genised food.

962. There is great variation in the altitude of different prisons, as you are

gth March 1803.

aware

Yes ; but mere altitude, I would say, does not affect the question, whether it
is high, or whether it is low, but the question is, whether the prison is so low
as to be in a state unfavourable to the health of persons living outside the
prison ; that would be sufficient evidence whether the prison were too low.

963. It has been stated tiiat the Oxford gaol lies so low as to be in a compara-
tively unhealthy condition ; are you aware whether such is the case ?

In Oxfordshire there is some ague, which imphes that it is low, but whether
the lunnan system is of less power in Oxfordshire than elsewhere we have not
evidence to show.

964. Duke of Marlborough.] Have you examined the Oxford gaol ?
No, I have not been to the Oxford gaol.

(37- 3.) M 2 965. Marquess

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

S. Smith, Esq.,

JI.D., I.L.B., F.R.S.

Qth March 18G3.

965. Marquess of Salisbury.] You have stated that in your opinion no differ-
ence is caused by the aUitude of a prison unless the neio;hbourhood is positively
unhealthy, and you have referred frequently to Coldbath Fields prison ; do you
know anything of the Penitentiary at Millbank ?

1 have not made any experiments in the Penitentiary at INlillbank.

966. You are not awai'e that there is any considerable diiference of diet
there ?

I think that there would be no difference caused by the difference of altitude
between that and Coldbath Fields.

967. You stated, did you not, that the waste of the system by treadwheel
labour is double that caused by crank labour, or rather in the proportion of

14 to 2.

Yes, about that, according to the present system. Perhaps I should state,
in reference to my experiments, from which that computation is derived, that
in crank labour the prisoner is required to perform 13, .500 revolutions a day,
and in the treadwheel at Coldbath Fields the ascent is 1-36 miles; there must
be uniformity in those conditions, or else I cannot compare them.

968. Do you conceive that labour on the treadwheel involves a necessity for
a much higher diet than labour on the crank ?

That would depend upon the labour exacted at each of them, because it is
not the same in any two prisons.

969. Is not there the same proportion between them, namely, 25 per cent.?
One is one and a half and the other is two. But we have a certain amount

of waste of body which always occurs in a state of absolute rest. I re^jard that
as my basis line. I assume that you must always supply, even in absolute rest,
a certain quantity of food to meet that waste. One and a half of that will
meet the waste of the whole 24 hours at the crank, and twice that will meet
the waste of the body from treadwheel labour at Coldbath Fields. The expe-
riments on crank labour gave the following exact results : —

At Wandsworth Prison. — Total daily labour, 13,500 revolutions.

Pressure.

Lbs

r- {

Revolutions per
Minute.

30
4.D-7

30
44-7

Jleau of

Revolutions per

Minute.

37-8

37-3

{

Increase over

Rest during the

Labour.

Meau
of Increase.

2-05
3-

2-8
4-2

Increase over

Rest in
the 24 Hours.

1
/

3-5

1-36
1-46

1.57
1-67

Mean
of Increase.

I 1-42

I 62

Q-o. Do you make allowance in that for the number of hours of rest?

Yes. If I find that 20 ounces of bread are sufficient to maintain the body in
a state of rest, tlien I must give one half more, or 30 ounces, for the crank,
and as I have doubled the amount of waste with the treadwheel that I should
have at rest, I must give 40 ounces for the treadwheel. That is my illus-
tration.

971. You conceive that there should be a material difference between the
treadwheel and the Crank labour ?

If those conditions are maintained. Of course it is easy to make the crank
and the treadwheel precisely the same in their effect on the system, and that
is what I should seek for, namely, to have an absolute uniformity in those
employments.

972. Would that be possible?

Quite so. It is merelv a question of the pressure you put upon the crank,
and the rapidity of bodily ascent upon the treadwheel.

973. Does not the treadwheel act with greater uniformity upon the system
than any other species of prison employment ?

I think it does.

974. Does the crank act with equal uniformity upon the body?

It does not act much upon the lower limbs. It acts upon the arras and the

back ;

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 93

back ; and therefore persons who are accustomed to use their arms and backs E. Smith, Esq.,

as day labourers would find the crank a much easier punislnnent than clerks *'•''■• ^^■''•j ^•'^•s-

or persons leading a sedentary life. Still, at first, I think the effect upon the

system would be greater with the crank than it would be with the tread- 9''^ March 1863.

wheel.

975. You would therefore recommend labour upon the ti'cadwheel in pre-
ference to labour upon the crank ?

I should think so. I do not know that the difference is so very great.

976. Do you make any allowance for the difference in the heat of the
weather r

- There should be a considerable allowance made for that. According to our
recent experiments, there must be more nitrogenous food given in hot Aveather,
because the vital powers of the bod}^ are diminished in hot weather. In my
experiments the effect of heat upon the body was to diminish the vital power
one-third between the beginning of June aud the beginning of August ; that is
to say, as the summer advanced the vital power progressively diminished,
taking precisely the order in which the cholera increased. As the cholera
increased the vital powers of the body diminished, and during that period there
should be a large amount of nitrogenous food given. There should be, at the
same time, a less amount of labour performed, because the muscular tissues of
the body become more relaxed in summer than in winter. In cold weather it
is possible to make the same amount of exertion without the same amount of
■ exhaustion.

977- Would it be possible to make a scale of dietary which should be
adapted to the different seasons of the year, or be regulated by the thermo-
meter ?

Yes, I think so. But as the temperature of the cells is kept pretty uniform
throughout the year, the prisoners are not like persons exposed to the ordinary
atmosphere. I think that there should be some difference made between the
summer and the winter dietary, but it need not be anything very great, under
the jJresent system of prison discipline.

978. Do }'ou allow anything in the waste of weight for perspiration ?

Yes, that must be allowed for. In all cases of hard-labour punishments
there is a loss of weight under any system of dietary, partly from the loss of
perspiration, and partly from the loss of fat, as mentioned before.

979. Then the waste of a very fat man would be considerably greater than
the waste of a spare thin man ?

With an increased amount of exertion it would. I should state, with
regard to weight, that under every system of prison discipline the weight dimi-
nishes to a certain point, and that diminution takes pbice, as I have mentioned,
■with regard to the fluids, and the fat. When these have been reduced to
a certain point, say after the first month or two months' imprisonment, the
weight of the prisoner remains nearly stationary during the whole period of
imprisonment, if the amount of food supplied is sufficient.

980. Have you had any experience in the examination of military prisons .'
No, I have not.

qSi. I think it is stated that a diminution of weight takes place later in the
confinement ; that is to say, after the average length of confinement in military
prisons ?

It may be that in that case the dietary is insufficient, and then, of course, it
would do so ; you would not only have a diminution in weight earlv, but you
would have it late also. I assume the question to refer to a long duration of
imprisonment, which brings the prisoner up to the high scale of dietary in
county prisons, in which he would have abundant nourishment.

982. In the report on military prisons, it appears that with a diminution of
weight, the health of the prisoners has greatly increased ; has that been your
experience ?

It is quite possible, I have no doubt. If we take a familiar illustration, in a
Swiss tour we may lose 10 lbs. or 14 lbs. in weight; but we improve in health,
because we get rid of material which we do not want in the system, and which,

(37. 3.) M 3 in

94 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

E. Smith, Esq., in the ordinary conditions of life, is in excess ; but if persons are ill fed, then a
M.D , LL.B., F.R.s. dimiiiution of weight must be injurious.

gth March 1863, 9S3. Is that attribulable to their having labour in the open air ?

"1 es, to increased labour. Labour in the open air is better, as I mentioned

before, than in less pure air ; but the labour itself is the essential cause of the
diminution in weia;ht.

'»'

0S4. Lord Presidcvf.] Are the Committee to understand you to state that it
depends entirely on the state of the person whether that increase or diminution
of weight is a disadvantage or an advantage r

Quite so.

985. Is that so with regard to prisoners generally r
it is in some cases, but in others it is not.

986. "Would it not increase a man's weight if he were allowed to drink a large
quantity of cold water ?

No, that diminishes it ; I may say that water taken in the morning without
food diminishes the weight of the body twice as much as if it were taken with
food, and the reason is that the fluid [lasses out of the body in much larger
quantity than was admitted, and carries away with it material which is more or
less valuable to the system.

987. Marquess of Salisbury.'] It is stated in the report on military prisons for
1859 and 18G0, at page 12, tliat "The diet generally in use in the miHtary
prisons at home has been, throughout the years 1859 and 1860, the reduced
scale adopted in August 1850, viz. : —

Ordinary. After 56 days.

Breakfast - - 8 oz. of oatmeal - - 10 oz. oatmeal.
Dinner - - 9 oz. of Indian meal - 12 oz. of Indian meal.

Supper - - 8 oz. of bread - 8 oz. of bread.

with half-a-pint of milk to each meal." Do you think that that dietary is
sufticient r

1 should think it a very good experimental dietary, except that I should say
there is more milk given than is necessary. I should think also that Indian meal
could scarcely be wisely given in county prisons ; it is one of the classes of food
with wliich we are not familiar in this country,and which would therefore not digest
well, and as the aim should be in all prison discipline, both in a medical and an
economical point of view, to make the food digest, I should have my doubts
about the propriety of giving Indian meal simply because it is a httle cheaper
than other farinaceous foods. I think that there should be a little more variety
than is given in this dietary, because by varying the food you increase the power
of assimilation. Even the best kind of food if given constantly would not
assimilate after some time, whereas if given with a certain variety it would
assimilate. But the principle of giving bread or some analogous matter
with the gruel or soup at each meal given hot, is the idea that I should have
in the formation of a fundamental dietary. I should state that with regard
to the Lancashire operatives, we have had special analyses made, in order to
determine the value of meat liquor and bone liquor, and taking a mixture of
lean and fat meat together, the liquor from the meat is about one-tifth the value
of the meat. Lrom each lib. of meat there would be 490 grains of carbon in
the liquor, the meat itself containing, if it be beef, 2,400 grains of carbon.
With regard to nitrogen, the liquor from lib. of beef will contain 18 grains of
nitrogen; the quantity of nitrogen in lib. of beef itself is 1/5 grains; there-
fore, the liquor from lib. of beef is about eijual to one-fifth of the value of the
meat in carljon, and about one-ninth of the value of the meat in nitrogen, and
is therelore of considerable value. The liquor from bones contains 783 grains
of carbon from each 1 lb. of bones, which therefore is equal to about one-fourth
the weight of the meat ; and there are 24 grains of nitrogen in 1 lb. of bones,
which would be equal to about one- seventh the same weight of meat. Therefore
both the meat liquor and the bone liquor are proved manifestly to have very
considerable elements of nutrition.

988. Will you state what sort of bread you would recommend?

I think

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 95

I think it essential foi* prison diet that it should be white bread ; or if not E. Sniith, Eso ,
white bread, it shoiiid have the bran ground finely. My reason for this is, that m-p-. ll.b., f.b.s.
I and others have shown that the bran of brown bread, as the husk of oatmeal, , ,, . , ^g^
and the shells of peas, hastens the nutritive material through the bowels. We, ^ _J_^!^__
therefore, have a larger waste of food if we give the bran with the bread, and
the husk with the oatmeal, and the shells with the peas, than we should have
without them.

9S9. Then, the general prejudice which prevails amongst the agricultural
community, that the finest white bread is the best for tliem, and the most
nutritive, is correct ?

Certainly, it is correct. Brown bread is the rich man's and not the poor
man's dietary.

990. Are you able to state what are the proportion of sick in a pxison :
No ; I have no certain knowledge of that.

991. Are you able to state what the proportion of sickness is in the popu-
lation generally .-

No, we have no returns of that ; we have mortality returns, but not sickness
returns.

99-2. You were asked, with regard to depression of mind, whether it did not
tend very largely to the increase of lunacy and suicide in different prisons ; are
you aware what pro[)ortion lunatics, and persons of that description, generally
bear to the population ?

No, I am not aware.

993. Are there returns to that effect?

I believe there are. ,

y94. Are you able to state the proportion with reference to suicides ?
No.

905. If you will have the goodness to look at the return of judicial statistics
for the year 18G1, at page 31, you will observe that 112 were removed from
local prisons to lunatic asylums, and six committed suicide ?

I should think that the proportion of prisoners who are lunatics, and also of
those that commit suicide, is very large, in proportion to the total number of
prisoners ; the object of the scheme which 1 have been mentioning would be to
take away that depression altogether by labour and by exercise, thereby pre-
venting the depression and removing the conditions that would lead to lunacy
and suicide.

996. I infer from your general evidence, that you do not think employment
in trades in prison a beneficial occupation, as compared with what you stated
with regard to hard labour generally ?

The exertion itself would have the effect upon the system of which I speak,
inasmuch as in exertion men respire very much more than under other con-
ditions ; and if the air be pure it is manifest that the effect upon the system of
pure air would be much better than if the air be less pure, but you scarcely
can say that the air in prisons is impure except in a modified sense ; I have no
doubt that labour in pure air is very much more valuable than in less pure air,
but I do not think that the air is ever .so impure in prisons as to render the
labour injurious.

097. You think that it is more desirable to employ prisoners in the open air
than in close confinement ?
Yes.

99S. And, consequently, as trades cannot be carried on in the open air, you do
not think that a most advantageous mode of applying labour in prisons ?

I do not know that there would be any difficulty in so arranging a current of
air through the large rooms in which they work, at oakum picking for example,
that you woidd not assimilate the conditions of those rooms very much to those
of the open air. I think the aim should be to assimilate the conditions of the
trades which they carry on in manufactories to the conditions of the open air,
which may be done if the rooms are lofty enough, and you have a sufficient
current of air through them. I think that that can never be carried out
properly in cells in prisons where crank labour is imposed, which is labour that

(37.3.) M 4 requires

96 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

E.Smith, Esq., requires a large aniovint of respiration, and therefore tends to vitiate the air
M.D., LL.B. F.R.s. ygj,y iiiuch. At thc Nt'W Bailey, Salford, for example, where the labour is car-

.1 HT 1 or ried on in sei:)arate cells, I think that there could be no system adopted which
oth Marcli 1803. J . '. , , . . , . • it,,-,
would remove the impvn-ity produced by respn'ation, which would therefore be

increased by exertion. I think, therefore, that severe labour should not be

carried on in separate cells.

1)90. Lord frodchoiise.] Do you think that cocoa is a valuable article of food
for prisoners ?

Not for prisoners Cocoa must be regarded in two aspects. It contains one
half of its weight of fat, and as fat is a necessary element of food, if we regard
it as so much of that element of food, it is therefore so far valuable ; but tliat
which makes cocoa valued particularly, is the peculiar principle it contains,
which is analogous to tea and coffee ; tea, coffee, and cocoa have an analogous
action in increasing the assimilation of food by the body. That is the result of
my experiments. If therefore cocoa could be afforded, as it tends to increase
assimilation, it would be a right food to give to prisoners ; but since it is a
luxurv, and vou can supply the stimulation by labour, it appears to me to be a
food which should not be given in prisons.

1000. Chairman.'] The real object which you have in view is to procure what
you technically term the assimilation of food, is it not?

Yes.

1001. And that can be effected by having a supply of fresh air on the one
hand, and a certain amount of active exercise on the other ?

Yes.

1002. And consequently those prison employments which admit of active
exercise in the open air or fresh air, are in your opinion the best for the
prisoners :

Yes.

1003. You have been asked whether stone breaking, to which you gave your
approval as a form of jn'ison employment, would not interfere with the labour
of honest men out of jjrison ; would not the employment of prisoners upon any
trade occupation, either at mat making or at weaving, or at any other employ-
ment you can name, equall}' interfere with honest trade r

I should think so.

1004. Therefore the objection which is urged against stone breaking would
equall}- be against all trade occupations, would it not ?

I should think so.

100.5- Speaking generally, you contend that you could obtain very nearly an
equivalent for meat bv the use of milk ?
Yes.

1006. And the amount of nitrogen contained in milk corresponds pretty
nearly with the amount ot nitrogen contained in meat ?

Each ounce of meat contains 10 grains of nitrogen. In the prisons in
London, they give six ounces of cooked meat without bone, which would be
equal to about 7 h to 8 ounces of uncooked meat ; therefore in the ration which
they give of meat* that would amount to 80 grains of nitrogen. Now a pint of
milk contains 4."^ grains of nitrogen ; if, therefore, we supplant the meat by milk,
still sui)i)osing the whole quantity of meat to be necessary, we must give them
nearly two pints of milk for every ration of meat which they now have.

101)7. Would you be good enough to give the Committee, in round figures,
an estimate of the amount of carbon and of nitrogen which ought to be taken
in daily ?

Perhaps if I gave that which I have given for the Lancashire operatives,
it would be the best information that I could give, as that is the only one
that I have thought over with sufficient care ; namel}-, 30,100 grains weekly of
carbon, and 1,400 grains weekly of nitrogen ; that would be 200 gi'ains of
nitrogen daily, and 4, .'500 grains of carbon daily ; and these facts are derived
from this method of calculation. From various experiments which I have
carried on through the whole period of a day, upon a number of scientific

gentlemen

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLIiNE. 9/

gentlemen chiefly, we found the amount of carbon which is evolved from a body -^ Smiin, E^iji)
in a condition of entire rest, then with a certain amount of exertion (always "•"■> ^'""•» *'-^-Si
calculated as that of the body in a standini^ posture and walking), and then, gth March 1863^

with a certain further amount of exertion, corresjwnding with tiie increased

quantity caused by those modes of exertion, I take the medium amount of
carbon evolved, with a medium amount of exertion, added to the amount of
carbon passing off unused by the bowels, to give me the quantity that I require
for the Lancashire operatives.

1008. Assuming these different constituents as the basis of the prison dietary,
namely, bread, rice, oatmeal, jjotatoes, or some other vegetable of that sort,
milk, and either meat liquor, or of fat which you spoke of before, would these
elements, in your opinion, by combination, and by re-combination in different
proportions, furnish you with a sufficient diet to maintain the health of any
prisoner at the standard point ?

I should use them for experimental dietaries, and I should, in my experi-
ments, assume that they would be sufficient.

loog. In the military dietary it is provided that the prisoners shall have 10
ounces of meat on one day in the week ; is that, in your opinion, a satisfactory
arrangement ?

It appears to me to be the most wasteful and unscientific procedure ima-
ginable ; because the amount of food that can be assimilated in a given number
of hours cannot be indefinitely increased. 'I'here is no reason to beheve that 10
ounces of meat could, if necessary, be digested and assimilated at one time ;
and a portion of it being given on this particular' day must be wasted, and, as
1 think, a very large portion. And, since you cannot carry on the nutriment
that you receive one day to the account of the next day, or only a very small
portion of it, whatever you have given in excess to day will not compensate
for a deficiency to-morrow.

1010. 'i'herefore, a large portion of those 10 ounces of meat run absolutely
to waste ?

I have no doubt of it.

10 11. You stated, did you not, that hot food was, on the whole, a desirable
element of prison diet ?
I think it is quite essential.

1012. On what ground ?

Chiefly on account of its acting as a vital stimulant ; it is a cheap way of
supplying stimulus to the body. We find, medically speaking, that in cases
of indigestion, and defective assimilation, if you give the food hot, you increase
the power of assimilation ; and the same thing, no doubt, occurs in prisons
where there is so great a liability to defect of assimilation.

1013. Therefore, the Committee are to understand, that by the combination
of all these more simple elements, by the introduction of a certain amount of
labour, where labour does not exist, and by the introduction of hot food, in
order to facilitate digestion ; by these combinations, and re-combinations, you
may often find an adequate substitute for meat itself?

That is what I should look for experimentally.

1014. I think you staled just now that in your opinion the treadwheel was
the best punislnnent?

If you must have a severe punishment, the treadwheel, I have very little
doubt, is the best of any at present devised. The shot (h-ill is a particularly
good punishment, but it has never been carried on through the whole day in
county prisons. But if you want a punishment not so severe as the treadwheel
labour, then I think stone breaking is most useful ; but I consider that the
treadvvlieel, properly regulated, not employed as it is now, without regulation,
and where every governor does as he pleases, but properly regulated, is the
best of all severe punishments.

1015. At the same time you consider that the different treadwheels which
are now in use admit of very large mechanical improvement ?

They simply want regulation. With regard to Canterbury gaol, I may

mention that, being a small prison, they have not a sufficient number of pri-

(37. o.) N soners,

98 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

M^ ^Tlb ?k's. ^""^^'^' generally speaking, to occupy the whole wheel ; and as the whole wheel

■' — '-^ ' ' ' moves round by the weight of the prisoners, it will move more or less rapidly,

9th March 1863. according to the weight of the prisoners. When I worked at that wheel with

- — — . some prisoners, a variation occurred in the rapidity from 32 revolutions per

minute up to 48 revolutions per minute. In proportion to the number of

revolutions so is the rate of ascent. If there had been a governor to that wheel

with a sufficient weight of prisoners to turn the wheel, the ascent might have

been made absolutely uniform.

1016. Of course, under such cii'cumstances, the treadwheel produces very
different effects upon the human constitution and system generally.

Very different.

1017. Do you know, from your own inquiries, and your own study of the
subject, wdiether the treadwheel itself is a very different engine in point of con-
struction in different gaols ?

It is the same in construction.

1 01 8. Are the steps of the same height ?

As far as 1 know they are of the same height, but, of course, if the steps vary
in height whilst the rapidity is uniform, you will still have a difference in the
total ascent.

] o 1 9. Are you of opinion that it would be very desirable to have a complete
uniformity in the action of the treadwheel throughout the country ?
Yes.

1 020. Are you of opinion that that uniformity could easily be secured ?
Without the least difficulty.

1021. Is there any mechanical objection to it ?

There is not the least difficulty mechanically, I believe. The first question
would be to settle the total ascent which should be allowed, because there is a
limit to the amount of exertion which the body can make in a given time. On
the treadwheel at Coldbath Fields the amount of labour exacted is equal to
5 s times that of rest, and the total limit that the human system can bear, as
proved by my experiments, is /. Therefore, there is a limit which you must
not pass. If the steps now per minute are 54, which is about the average at
Coldbath Fields prison, it would be necessary to limit the number to that or
some other number ; but having determined the total ascent to be made in a
given time, and therefore in a day, you have to regulate the whole of the
machinerj' by that.

1022. When therefore the Act of Parliament takes time as the measure by
which the punishment on the treadwheel is to be graduated, you are of opiniou
that that is an incorrect gauge to apply ?

I believe there is another limitation, namely, that the height of the total
ascent shall not be more, I think, than a mile and a third. There is a limita-
tion with regard to height.

1023. In reducing it to a practical rule, would you apply a limitation in the
shape of ascent ?

Yes, the total ascent of a day ; but I think that there should be such an.
amount of rapidity of revolution each minute as to make it a punishment ;
because if you allow the wheel to go round slowly, it becomes a pleasure and
not a punishment. There should be a certain limit as to the an)ount of ascent
and rapidity of ascent, and there should also be a limit as to the number of
minutes of work at one time, followed by a certain interval of rest.

1024- Are you not aware that the law prescribes that the ascent shall not
exceed 12,000 feet, whicli of course is more than a mile and a tliu'd r
I had forgotten that.

1 025. I presume that what you have said with regard to the treadwheel, would
apply in some respects to the crank, namely, tliat the pressure on the crank
is in many gaols very unequal and very different ?

Exceedingly different. In the better kinds of cranks, as at Wandsworth
(AppokVs patent being used there), the pressure put upon the axis which is to
be turned by the handle, is graduated by defined weights. The amount of

pressure

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 99

pressure to be put upon it is determined b\' the surgeon, there being, however, -E- Smith, Et

II.-

M.D., LL.B., r.R.R.

a normal quantity, but any reduction is determined by the surgeon. In the old

form of cranks, as at the New Bailey at Salfbrd, the pressure is regulated simply Q^h March 1863.

by turning a kind of screw ; the gaoler gives a turn to the screw, and he calls '

it what he pleases; 7 lbs. or 10 lbs. as the case may be, but the etiect is
extremely different ; the effect of the nominal 7 lbs. crank at the New Bailey at
Salford, in comparison with the effect of the Wandsworth crank of 7 lbs., is as
16 to 1 ; andthecflFect of the so called 9 lbs. crank at the New Bailey, as com-
pared to the 12 lbs. crank at Wandsworth, is as 1 3 to 1. 'Iherefore there is
very great difference with regard to the effect of the nominal value, and since
the nominal value is determined by the simple turn of a screw, whicli can
never be graduated nicely, it is quite clear that the pressure at the New Bailey
must vary with each prisoner every day.

1026. Does Appold's patent admit of variation by any warder that may be
passing ?

No, only by taking off or adding weights.

1027. Therefore practically it is at the discretion of the governor, and of the
governor alone ?

Of the governor and the surgeon. I think that no cranks should be allowed
which have not a uniform system with regard to the graduation of weight. At
present I am not quite clear that the mode of determining the exact pressure .
is the correct mode of determining it. A weight is put at the end of the handle,
and whatever will draw the handle down to the horizontal position, is supposed
to measure the pressure put upon the crank ; but it does not in the least follow
that that will accurately determine the amount of pressure. The amount of
pressure of the crank will depend very much upon the decree of lubrication of its
axis. In turning round the axis, if it be dry or well lubricated, the ease or
difinculty will be very different indeed. If this axis be quite clylindi-ical in form,
and if, on the other hand, it be out of repair, so that it moves with a jerky motion,
the effect will be very different. The crank should be constructed with a
certain pressure, produced only by weights, and then it should be kept always
in one condition with regard to its action.

1028. You would, of course, give the surgeon and the governor, either con-
jointly or separately, the power of moving those weights, and graduating the
pressure to the strength of the individual prisoner ?

1 think the basis or standard pressure should be that which a moderately con-
structed man can prettv well perform ; then, if the prisoner be out of health, the
surgeon should have the power of diminishing it ; but I would not have the
basis so high that he should find it necessary to graduate it according to the
strength of his prisoner, setting apart the question of health.

102.). You think that the governor and the surgeon should have the power
of diminishing the number of revolutions which the government should requii'e
in a day rather than that the pressure itself should be reduced ?

Either the one or the other. I do not think it matters whether it is the
pressure or the number of revolutions, but the standard quantityof labour to be
performed by the prisoner should be set at that which a man of moderate
strength can peiform ; and any diminution below that should be on account of
his health, and not on account of his strength ; if he becomes out of health he
should have a diminution ; but if it be a mere question of one man being
stronger than another, do not let tlie standard be so high that a man of moderate
strength cannot perform the task. It would be better that the total number of
revolutions to be made daily should be uniform, and that the pressure should
vary under the direction of the surgeon.

1030. Practically, you see no difficulty in securing uniformity, both at the
treadwheel and the crank f

I believe that there is no difficulty in that respect.

loji. Earl of Kovuici/.] You stated, did you not, that the human constitution
diminished in strength in the sunmier ?
Yes, it is less powerful in the summer.

1032. Do you know, with regard to the treadwheel, that the quantity of
labour is reduced in the summer as compared with the winter ?

(37. 3 ) N 2 It

100 MINUTES OF EVIDENTCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

E. Smith, Esq., It is in some gaols ; in the New Bail}' at Salford it is reduced from 56 in
M.D. LL.B., F.K.S., ^j-jg ^vinter to 52 in the summer ; but that is not uniform ; there is no system
eth M^i863. ^^ the gaols in general.

' 1033. You know it is done ?

Ye:,.

1034. And therefore it could be done universally ?
Yes.

1035. Duke 0? .Marlborough.'] You consider tlr.it the treadwheel is the best
system of hard labour ?

Yes ; that and stone-breaking I should consider the two best.

1036. What description of exercise do you recommend ?

I think the ordinary swift running and walking exercise, which is now
adopted in gaols, is the best that can be devised as an exercise.

1037. Walkinir around the prison yard ?
Yes.

1038. Do you consider that that is sufficient in its character r

The character of it is sufficient ; it is a question of quantity, how much might
he necessary ; but if there be a day's labour exacted, a prisoner would not
require much more exercise than his day's labour.

1039. Do you consider that the treadwheel should be as much as possible
exposed to the open air r

I think it should be under shelter, inasmuch as the temperature of the skin
is mucli increased during- the action of the treadwheel. When the work of
the treadwheel is over, the ])risoner sits quietly for a quarter of an hour, and
if a draught of cold air fall upon him, he is, of course, apt to take
cold ; it therefore should be under shelter, at the same time that it is in the
open air.

1040. Marquess of Sf//M/w;7/.] You have attended a good deal to Coldbath
Fields Prison ; did I not understand you to say that the rooms in which the
trades are carried on should be as well ventilated as the open air ?

Yes, if possible.

1 04 1 . Is that tlie case at Coldbath Fields Prison ?

At Coldbath Fields Prison they have not manufactures ; there the system
is carried on by treadwheel labour and oakum picking.

1042. Is it not the case on the female side of the prison ?
I had an impression that there were no females there.

1043. It has been stated that Coldbath Fiekls Prison was in a state of great
want of ventilation, in consequence of there not being sufficient cells ; did you
find that to be the case when you were there, in the daily rooms where you
were ?

I found no deficiency in any room that I went into ; but as the work is not
performed in the different cells, there would be no reason why there should be
any vitiation of the air to any great extent. Where oakum picking is carried
on", I dare say there is a deficiency of air, because -100 persons are put into
a small space, and sit very closely together, and you can never, therefore, have
sufficient ventilation to carry away the products of respiration. With regard
to Wakefield, that is a gaol in wliich the system of manuf icture is exclusively
adopted, ail other kinds of punishment being discontinued. There the diffi-
culty exists of ke(^ping up a sufficient ventilation, both in the cells and ni
the larger rooms. 'I'he work is done tliere chiefly or entirely in the cells, and
I have the testimony of the surgeon for saying that the ventilation is necessarily
defective.

1044. ^Vhat do you consider the most advantageous temperature for a cell ?
The temperature should never exceed GO ; the limits should be about 48

and 58.

1045. Is that the case in Wakefi(>ld prison ?

Yesj I think it is. Tliere is a variation throughout the year ; but I think it

is never Ijelow, or never above those liaiits.

104O. Are

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE.

101

1 046. Are those cells warmed ?
They are not artiticially warmed.

1047. Do you I'ccommend the use of water closets in cells ?

I should not if it could be avoided ; it is quite contrary to health ; it is a
system which ought not to be adopted.

1048. Do you recommend the usual system of )3ails put out in the morning?
That is better, I have no doubt, than the other, or some system should be

adopted by which the water closet should be separated from the cells.

1049. Do you find any bad effects from water closets in cells r
I should think that it would be injurious.

1050. Lord IVodehouse.'] Do you think that the use of water closets could be
Supplied by pails and other utensils used in cells, and afterwards emptied, or
are you contemplating a separate water closet system altogether ?

The best system is that of the water closets being placed quite separate from
the cells, as in Coldbath Fields Prison ; but if you are to have the separate
system followed out entirely, you must have some'system of leaving them in the
■cells, which must be injurious.

1 0.5 1 . Which would you prefer with the separate system r
If you must maintain the separate system, the water closet system is much
better than having pails.

1052. Chairnum.] Are you aware that in almost all gaols it is the practice,
for the surgeon to allow extra diet to prisoners without actually putting them
upon the sick list ?

Yes.

E. Smith, Esq.,

M.D., LL.B., F.R.S.

gtli March 1863.

1053. Is that in your opinion a practice which is indispensable to the presen
system of prison discipline ?

I think there must be power given to the surgeon to increase every dietary if
lie should find the state of the prisoner's health diminishing ; but at present
there is no very general system whereby the state of health is estimated; it is
rather a matter of opinion on the part of tlie surgeon than any definite state-
ment that he can make as to weight and colour and firmness of muscles, and
so on.

1054. Is it not probable that one sui'geon might form one estimate of his
■duty with respect to the health of a prisoner, and another another ?

Yes, under the present system it is.

1055. Is it not probable that one surgeon may consider it his duty to dis-
charge a ])risoner from gaol in a condition of perfect bodily health, and another
would consider it merely necessary to let him go out in the same average state
of health in which he entered ?

No doubt there would be that variation of opinion.

1056. Would not that very largely determine the issue of extra diet ?
No doubt it would.

1057. Are you aware whether there is a very large discrepancy in the amount
of extra diet issued in different prisons ?

I believe there is great discrepancy.

10.58, Your general experience of the prison system in England would lead
you to this conclusion, that there is a very large discrepancy in the amount of
diet and in the nature of that diet, in the amount of punishment and in the
nature of that punishment, and in the extra diets as they are issued by different
surgeons ?

Yes. I know of no gaol in which the system of determining the amount of
health of the prisoner is good, except in' Wakefield prison. On the convict
side of that prison Mr. Milner, who is a man of great intelligence, has adopted a
very definite system of registering the degree of health. The weight is taken as
one indication, both at the commencement of the imprisonment, and whi'n it has
become tolerably stationary. Then the colour of the gums and Hps, as indicat-
ing the colour of the blood, is observed, and the degree of firmness of the
muscles ; I think he has five elements which he writes down, with certain num-

(37- ^O N 3 bers

102 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

E. Smith, Esq., bers to them, to indicate a larger or a smaller quantity of health. If that system

M.D., T.L.B., F.R.s. were adopted throughout the country, 1 think we should have much moie uni-

, ' ~ or formity than we have under the present system.
gth Maich 1863. ■' ^

~ 1050. Earl of Miilmcs/mri/.'] Suj)posing a system which, as far as we can

ascertain, is superior to the present, and, as far as we can ascertain, is as perfect
as possible to be discovered by scientific persons, like yourself, do not you think
it would be very advantageous that the Seci-etary of State should have power
to enforce that system universally and upon the same footing ?

Yes, certainly : I think it is a fundamental question that the matter should
be regulated absolutely and enforced by one common authority.

1060. Earl Cathcarl.'] If you have one particular scale of diet, must it not be
the same for a giant as for a dwarf, that is to say, one man might be starved
while another man might be fattened by the same diet ?

But you would not have so great an extreme as is indicated by vour Lordship's
question ; the dietary must be made so as to allow a little licence in either
direction.

io6i. I mean that under the present system it very often happens that one
man comparatively feasts while another man may starve ?

Perhaps it may be so ; I should take the average at about 1,50 pounds, which
is the average weight of the men of our working classes, and I should apportion
the dietary to that.

106-2. Dors not diarrhoea prevail in griols very much ?

Yes, especially at certain seasons of the year ; and it occurs at a time of year
when a deficiency of assimilation exists, that is to say, in the hot season, when
the food is not properly assimilated, and therefore diarrhoea may be an advan-
tageous condition, rather than one of disease.

1063. Do you think that it is generally considered by gaol surgeons that the
prevalence of diarrhoea is a healthy sign }

It depends very much upon the talent and intelligence of the surgeon. Some
surgeons who act by routine would stop it ; others would inquire what was
the cause of the dian-hcea, and whether it was not a beneficial state of the
system.

1 064. Might not diarrhoea, if prolonged, very soon carry a man off alto-
gether ?

Yes ; but that is a condition of disease.

1065. Do you believe that potatoes at a certain time of the year produce

diarrhffia ?

A man may have deficiency of food with a deficiency of starch in the potatoes,
which would produce a deficiency of vital power, but the condition of the potato
itself would not be the cause it.

1 (^fit). You stated, did you not, that as the diet in various prisons was very
different, the diet must depend upon the experience and experiments of the
surgeons to the gaols ?

That is not the idea that I li;id in view in establishing a diet ; it should be
established upon purely scientific grounds, such as would be satisfactory to any
scientific man, and having ascertained those grounds, and the dietary being
adoi)ted, the surgeon should have the power to increase it if he finds the health
of a prisoner failing, but he shouhl have to do with exceptions only.

10G7. C//a?'/mfi'n.]' Looking, however, to the inequalities which exist among
all men, the inequalities of age and of stature, and of i)hysical strength, any
system which you devise must be more or less a broad, and a general one, and
must be fitted to ai)ply to tlu; average of men rather than to an exceptional
deviation on the side of strength, or on the side of weakness, must it not?

Certainly ; but the limits of the (>\tremes are small, and therefore there would
be no difficulty in that question if there be a surgeon, or some proper authority,
to vary it with regard to individual persons.

lofiS. You stated, in answer to a question put by the noble Duke some time
ago, that there were still several points which are undetermined^ and which it

would

SELECT COMJIITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE.

103

would be necessary, before any exact diet could be laid down, to settle scienti-
fically.

Yes, quite so.

1069. You suggested also that tbe best mode of ascertaining those points
would be by means of a commission ?

A prison official, if he were a competent person, would be the best, because he
would have his whole time to devote to the question, and it would seem to me
to be essential that whoever carries it out, should be able to devote the whole of
his time and thought to the subject for the time.

1070. Can you state what vould be the time that such commission would
be required, supposing it to be issued for the solution of those undecided
points ?

Not less than 12 months ; to what extent more, would depend upon the cor-
rectness, as they would consider it, of the results that were obtained, for we
find in all experimental work that a great deal has to be thrown away.

1071. Are the Committee to understand that the scale of dietary now laid
down in military prisons would on the whole be applicable as a provisional and
temporary dietaiy, until the large questions on which the main question hangs
are scientifically decided ?

I could only mention that as an experimental dietary for the cases of
prisoners not condemned to hard labour. I think that in that sense it would
be very valuable.

1072. Are you not aware that the majority of sentences now involve hard
labour ?

I do not know that positively, but T dare say it is so. Under the plan which
I have mentioned, in which labour would be enforced under every sentence, the
frequency of the hard labour sentences might probably be lessened.

1073. C-ould you furnish the Committee with a provisional statement of the
dietary which might be laid down in the case of ordinary hard labour in
prisons ?

I could do so, but I doubt whether it would be satisfactory. I could give my
grounds for doing it, but till those other questions are settled it would rest as a
mere matter of opinion. Until those matters obtain a final settlement we
could never settle any dietary, it would rest upon opinion, which would change,
and would not be satisfactory.

1074. At the same time a settlement might be deferred for one, two, or even
three years ?

For one or two years. One year, I should think, would be sufficient ; but
the subject is one of the greatest possible importance.

1075. Are you not of opinion that the dietary, as laid down in military
prisons, with that one single exception to which you alluded, of 10 ounces of
meat on one day in the week, is, for a provisional dietary, far better than the
average of the dietaries now in use in prisons ?

Yes. It would do away with dietaries that are manifestly insufficient, for I
think it a sufficient dietary ; but whether it would be sufficient for all con-
ditions of prison discipline I could not venture to give an opinion upon.

1076. Earl Cat/icart.] You are aware that military prisoners are men in the
prime of life ?

I suppose so.

1077. And, therefore, the dietary that would suit them might not suit persons
from the purlieus of a town ?

Those are questions of opinion, and, as opinion, it would, of course, require
to be settled by experimental proof. I think the evil connected with the late
alterat'on of dietary was that it was based upon opinion and upon authority,
and not upon absolutely proved data.

1 07S. C/uiirman.] Are there any immediate changes which you would suggest
in the dietary, with the view of putting it upon rather a better footing than it
stands upon now ?

I think the great question is to have no dietary of less value than our miUtary
dietary. If the lower scale of Government dietary were taken away, and tliey

(37. 3.) N 4 had

JE. Smith, Esq.f

SI.D. LL.E., F.R.S.

9th March 1863.

104 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

£. Smii/i, Esij., had equivalent scales in all the county prisons, that would be a great gain ;

M.D., LL.B., F.K.s. for at the present time the low scale must be very injurious to the health of the

^ ^ ^ prisoners. With regard to the excess, that is chiefly a question of econonw, but

^ 1_^^L I think it probable that the highest class in the Government dietary might be

also dispensed with.

1079. Ai'^ you acquainted with any workhouse dietaries?

Not very much ; I have not worked at them, and do not know them suffi-
ciently to give any evidence upon them unless they were put before me.

1080. Lord WodchoHse.^ Do you not think that for such short periods as
seven days' imprisonment a very low dietaiy ma}' be enforced without injury to
health r

That is a matter of opinion ; I do not think the public would be justified in
diminishing the health of a prisoner, and I do not think they would want to
increase it very much ; he should lie allowed to go away in the condition that
he came in: but to do that which you know must every day diminish his health
is a moral question which, I think, is of great importance to consider.

1081. Are you aware of any cases where, from the lowness of the prison
dietary, the health of a prisoner confined for a short time has been injured ':

Mr. Milner, of Wakefield prison, has informed me of eases of persons who
have come back to him in the course of 12 months again and again, and he has
been able to trace consumption to their low dietary.

1082. Chairman.] Were the Committee to understand from an answer wliich
you gave to a nol^le Loixl, that you could take the Secretary of State's dietary
as it stands at present, and place in parallel columns the alterations which you
l)ropose to make ?

No, 1 did not say so ; I could take the Government dietaiy, say, or the other
dietaries in the return, and put in parallel columns the amount of carbon and
nitrogen which they contain, which would show to the Committee the immense
diversity existing, but I could not take upon myself to advise upon a scale of
dietary as a permanent thing ; we have not sufficient knowledge upon that
point at present.

1083. Would you have the goodness to put such a return in?
Yes, I will furnish it to the Committee.

1084. Duke of Marl/wrough.] Would the scale of dietary, which in any
case you will be prepared to recommend, differ very materially froai what you
have recommended for the Lancashire operatives ?

I tiiink not ; the experimental dietary would be probably a little lower than
that. Then with regard to the amount which would be required to meet the
waste from hard labour, it must of course be much more than that, but to
what extent I could not say.

108.5. Chairman.] Would there not he this difference between a dietary
constructed for the use of prisoners, and the dietary constructed for the
Lancashire operatives, that in the cases of prisoners, there would not be the
same necessity for consultiui,^ the palate l)v introducing a great variety of
food ?

No, but I would not have a variety with the idea of coasidting the
palate. I would merely have such a variety as would eualde the food to
digest.

1080. That variety would lie within verv tuirrow limits, would it not ?

Yes ; it might not be of a kind to affect the i)alare at all. For example,
with regard to soup, nothing would be more injudicious than to give soup
of the same kind every dav without meat. H on one day pea soup were given,
and on another day soup of a different flavour, and yet of the same nutritive
value, the soup would digest.

1087. Duke of Marlliordvtjh.] Is the ha- is on which von have drawn the diet
for the Lancashire (operatives sim])ly that which would be sufficient to retain
soul and body together with the pmpir amount of health?

Yes, but rather more than the idea that those terms would imply ; I think
persons would be able to live and maintain their health vveU upon that diet.

iu88. Earl

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 105

1088. Earl Cathcart.'] In drawing a comparison between the dietary of a E. Smith, Esq..
Lancashire operative and a prisonei', do you bear in mind the fact, that the «•»., ll.b., f.k s.
Lancashire operative is at large, and may beg or buy, or in some other way ^^^ j^j^^^,^ ^g^^

may get bread, or other food, easily, whereas the prisoner can get no other food - '

than that which is supplied him ?

Yes ; but if the dietary give sufficient food on the one hand, and on the other,
with regard to the Lancashire operatives, it is recollected that they have not
much oppoi-tunity of getting food, except in a certain definite form now, I think
that that objection will not have much weight.

1089. Chairman.'] You suggested, did you not, that liquor from bones should
be used very often in preference to the liquor from meat ?

In framing a fundamental dietary, I think that at two meals in the day,
dinner, and perhaps supper, there should be either meat liquor or bone liquor
added to the material, the soup or gruel, as it is called, and in that way you
could give more fat tlian is contained in milk, and at much less cost.

1 090. What is the proportion of bone to meat ?

It varies according to the part of the animal ; in the forequarter of beef,
except in the shins and legs, the proportion is about 10 per cent. ; in shins and
legs, the proportion is 30 to 50 per cent.

1091. Marquess of Salisbury.] A great deal of that is now reduced to gela-
tine, is it not ?

Yes, I suppose it is ; still I think they make gelatine, latterly, of hoofs, and
the clippings of skins, rather than of bones.

1092. Cha^rman.^ Are there any other facts which you would desire to put
in evidence ?

Upon the question of the inequalities of prison discipline, when the matter
was under my special observation in 1858, I wrote to upwards of 60 governors
of gaols, to beg of them to give me their rota or system of punishment,
having reference to the inequalities of punishment, and I received from them
60 replies, and the result is this : that it is not merely in different gaols that
there are different instruments of punishment, but in the same gaol the kind
of punishment is varied from day to day, and at diiferent parts of the da}-,
and that the different kinds of punishment have a totally different effect upon
the body, and without any uniform action whatever. 1 think those letters, or
an analysis of them, would form a very valuable document.

1093. AVill you liave the kindness to put those letters in ?
Yes, I will do so.

1094. Are they tabulated ?

They are not tabulated at present, but I could do that at some future time.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Thursday next, 1 o'clock. ,

(37. 3.) 0

[ 107 ]

Die Jovis, 12° Martii 1868.

LORDS PRESENT:

Duke of Richmond.
Duke of Maklbohough.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Romney.

Earl Cathcart.
Earl of DuciE.

Viscount EVERSLEY.
Lord WoDEHOUSE.

Lord Lyveden.

THE EARL OF CARNARVON, in the Chair.

Evidence on

Prison Discipline,

MAJOR GENERAL SIR JOSHUA JEBB, k.c.b., is called in, and examined -, "7" ,

c ^^ Major-Ceneral

as follows : sir Joshua Jehb,

K.C.B.

1095. Chairman.] WILL you be good enough to state to the Committee •

what office you hold ? 12th March 1863.

In connexion with county and borough prisons, I hold the office of Surveyor
General of Prisons, the duties of which include all questions connected with
the construction of prisons.

1 096. Since when have you held that office ?

I have held the office of Surveyor General during the last 18 years, but have
been engaged in various duties under the Secretary of State for the Home
Department for the last 25 years.

1097. I think a great number of prisons have been built under your
direction ?

Yes, a large number of convict prisons, and all plans of county prisons have
been referred to me before being sanctioned by the Secretary of State.

1098. Could you state to the Committee briefly, what those have been ?

I should think that there must be between 1,200 and 1,400 cells erected now
on the plan of Pentonville, in different parts of the country.

1099. That is to say, upon the separate system ?
Yes.

1 1 00. You are aware, generally, are you not, of the condition of the gaols at
this moment in England r

Yes ; there is a great approximation to uniformity now which did not
exist formerly. Perhaps I may be permitted to mention that the question of
separate confinement having been forcibly brought before the Government in
1837 by Messrs. Crauford and Russell, the Inspectors of Prisons, it was deter-
mined in 1840, to build a model prison at Pentonville. It was first occupied
in the year 1842, and a very influential board of commissioners were appointed
for working- out the experiment of separate confinement which was to be carried
out in tliat prison ; among whom were the late Lord Wharncliffe, the late Duke
of Richmond, Lord Chichester, Lord John Russell, the present Lord Eversley,
and others, and I was one of the members.

1101. Could you state very briefly to the Committee what the principles of
construction are ujxju which you have proceeded in all those prisons which
have been built under your direction, or by your advice?

(37. 4.) 0 2 They

108

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

3Iajor- General

Hir Joshua Jebb,

K.c. B,

12th March 1863.

They are precisely those of Pentonville Prison, the general principle is an
open corridor, having the cells ranged upon galleries, by which means the
mosf perfect inspection of the interior of the prison is secured, and all the other
requisites ai'e provided for in construction for the inforcement of the discipline.
Under the 2d & 3d Victoria, chapter 56, which is the only Act which authorises
separate confinement being carried out for unlimited periods, it is provided that
the cells shall be such a size and lighted and warmed, and ventilated in such a
manner as shall be required by a due regard to health ; and that those
particulars shall be certified to the Secretary of State l)efore the cells can be
legally occupied.

1 102. Admitting, of course, that there are differences of principle in the ma-
nagement of Pentonville and the management of a county prison, are you still
of opinion that the pattern upon which Pentonville prison is constructed is the
proper pattern to adopt in county gaols generally .'

Yes ; I think the principle of construction cannot be improved ; but some
years ago I suggested that the cells at Pentonville which were designed for very
long periods, and were 13 feet long by seven feet broad, and fitted up with water-
closets and other conveniences, were not necessary for the shorter periods which
were passed in county gaols ; and though there was some opposition to it, I
induced the Secretary of State to authorise plans upon my recommendation
being constructed with cells, I think, nine feet long by six feet wide. That was
with a view to diminish the expense to the counties ; but my general recom-
mendation was, that there should be a certain number of larger cells in each
county prison for carrying out long sentences, and that the average period of
confinement should be looked to in determining the relative proportion of the
larger and smaller cells, perhaps three-fourths of the smaller cells to one-fourth
of the larger cells would be sufficient.

1103. But, with regard to any class of prisoners whether for long sentences
or for short sentences, you would not depart from the separate system as such ?

No ; the separate system I consider essential as the basis of discipline.

1 1 04. That is to say, that each prisoner should have one separate cell in which
he should be confined both by day and by night except at such hours when he
goes out for prison punishment or prison exercise ?

Yes ; but the administration of discipline would require perhaps to be some-
what changed, so as to allow of sufficient separation by night and dui'ing other
periods, and still have the means of taking the prisoners out of their cells for
labour ; because if strict separation in a cell is carried out, the means of en-
forcing hard labour is much restricted, and you have no means of carrying out
the sentence excepting by a crank.

1 105. With regard to one detail to which you jiist now alluded, and on which
other witnesses have previously spoken, do you believe that water-closets are
necessary in the cells ?

No ; but that depends again upon the administration of discipline. In prisons
where we have not the means of carryinii' out a strict separation by day
and night, as in the associated prisons for public labour, and in military prisons,
op])ortunity is afforded to the men to go to the water-closets when at exercise
in the yards, but that involves more or less of regulated association.

1106. Have you ever contemplated any scheme by which you could dispense
with the use of water closets in separate cells ?

There is no doubt that a water-closet is the greatest convenience you can
have of the kind, but it is rather an expensive one.

1107. Is it not sometimes prejudicial to health?

I tliink not ; if the water-closet is properly constructed, and the cell is pro-
perly ventilated, no inconvenience is experienced ; we have now had the ex-
perience of 20 years at Pentonville without the slightest inconvenience having
been experienced in that respect.

1108. Have you not been aware sometimes of any disagreeable and almost
prejudicial smells which have arisen from that cause ?

No ; that must arise from a faultiness in the construction of the water-closet,
or the ventilation of the cell.

1 1 09. Do

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 109

1 109. Do you approve of the system of ventilation by means of windows ■ Major-Gencral

No, I think that you may secure sufficient ventilation without them ; it is Sir Joshua Jebb,

always well to provide a direct communication with the exterior, but not kc.e.

through the window ; I tliink it is better to have a flue whicth is worked in the intj, siarch i8Gt

outer wall, and which will admit of a prisoner opening or shutting the ven- ._

tilator.

i!io. Do you see any objection as regards the discipline of the prison in
allowing the prisoner himself to open and to close the windows ?

No. excepting that if you make use of the window, the prisoners might com-
municate from cell to cell by means of the open window, and that leads me to
prefer a flue in the outer wall.

nil. Would not that communication be a serious inconvenience ?
Yes, it would.

1112. And therefore you would come to the opinion that it would be desir-
able not to give the prisoners the facility of opening those windows ?

Certaini)' not ; but I think there is an advantage in haiing a communication
with the outer air, and I should always recommend a flue in the external wall,
as well as an opening into the corridor ; these ai-rangements will be seen in my
reports for 1844 and 1847.

1113. Are you of opinion that looking to economy, a gaol built upon the
pattern of Pentonville, or upon the separate system, is on the whole the cheapest
form of construction that could be adopted ?

I think it is quite as cheap as any that ever preceded it, in fact it is cheaper.

1114. Are there any gaols at this moment in England where the solitary
system is enforced as distinguished from the separate system ?

No, solitary confinement cannot be legally enforced for more than 28 days at a
time, nor for more than three periods of 28 days in 12 months.

1115. There are still considerable discrepancies, are there not, both in the
construction and in the discipline of dift'erent prisons in England ?

I have stated that there is a great approximation to uniformity in the con-
struction of prisons, but theie is undoubtedly a great diversity of discipline in
the administration, and it is a great evil.

1116. Could you state briefly to the Committee what, in your opinion, are
the different divisions into which those discrepancies would fall ?

There are onl}^ three kinds of discipline that have ever been fairly brought
before the public. One is based upon classification of the prisoners ; another
is called the silent system, where classification is not so necessary ; and the other
is the sti'ict separation of prisoners. All these questions have been fully considered
by Committees ; there was especially a strong Committee of the House of
Commons in 1850, which gave a great deal of attention to the subject of prison
discipline, and their resolutions bear strongly upon this point. If the Commit-
tee will allow me I will just refer to the resolution of the Committee (of which Sir
George Grey, Secretary of State for the Home Department, was chairman). After
a laborious investigation of the whole subject, the Committee came to the follow-
ing resolutions : — " That many prisons have been rebuilt or materially altered
since 1835, by which uniformity of construction has been extensively promoted,
and that the internal discipline of prisons has been materially improved, but that
great variety of construction and discipline still exists. That this Committee
■concurs in the opinion expressed by former Committees of both Houses of
Parliament, that such variety is a great evil ; and considers it desirable that the
Legislature should intrust increased powers to some central authority, of
enforcing uniform adherence to rules laid down from time to time by Parliament
in these respects." Then they go on, with respect to individual separation, to
say, "That individual separation of prisoners, termed 'the separate system' of
imprisonment, contemplated in the 2 & 3 Victoria, chapter 56, has been
adopted in Pentonville prison, and in many county and borough prisons. That
this Committee has received mucli evidence both as to the mode of applying
this system, and as to its results. That this Committee regrets to have found
a want of uniformity in some important particulars in tlie mode of applying this
system in diflerent pri-ons, which they think ought to be remedied." " That
individual separation ought to be applied to all prisoners before trial, as it is
essential in an especial degree that such prisoners should be secured from all

(37. 4.) O 3 intercourse

110 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Mujor-Gencral j,-,tgj.course With other prisoners." " That it ought also to be applied to all
Sir Joshua Jeob, . , , ' i • ^i i- ' • j r ^i • • • .

K.c.B. prisoners under long sentences during the earner period oi their imprisonment,

but this Committee does not recommend that it should in ordinary cases be

12th March 1863. enforced for a longer period than 12 months. That hard labour is not incom-
patible with individual separation, and that where they have been tried in com-
bination, as in the county prison at Leicester, the effect has been remarkable in
the decrease of the number of committals^ especially under the Vagrant and
Malicious 'J'respass Acts." Now, with all our means, as I have stated, for esta-
blisliing a uniform system of discipline in the ordinary prisons of this country,
and it is to this point that I would desire particularly to direct attention, it is to
be lamented that there is yet so great a diversity in practice. To establish the
principle of separate confinement as a basis of discipline is well deserving the
serious attention of all who are interested in the administration of the law or
the welfare of societv and the criminal ; the real question is, the kind of labour
or employment.

1117. You wish the Committee to understand that although there has been
a considerable extension in the direction of an increase of uniformity as regards
the construction of pri-ons since the year when those resolutions were put
upon paper by the Committee of the House of Commons, there still is a very
large diversity whicli, in your opinion, it would be desirable to reduce as
speedily as possible?

1 do nut think that the resolutions of this Committee have ever been acted
upon to any great extent ; they may have been to a certain extent, but there
certainly still prevails a great diversity of practice in different prisons.

1118. Is it not your opinion that uniformity in construction as in discipline
is one of the first essentials ?

I think it is most imjiortant. We have now got absolute uniformity in all
the convict prisons, males and females ; and there exists entire uniformity in
all the militarv prisons. And I do not see that there is the least difficidty in
having the same degree of uniformity in the county and borough prisons, so
that men receiving sentences from two different courts should be quite certain
to be subjected to the same discipline and under the same amount of punish-
ment. It seems unworthy of a great country to have such a diversity of practice.

1119. In 1850 you gave evidence before the Committee, to which allusion
has been made. Are this Committee to understand that your opinion with
regard to the separate system, as there expressed, still holds good ?

Yes, quite so.

1 1 20. Have you seen no reason to vary that opinion ?

Not at all. We have had the separate system now in operation for upwards
of 20 years, without any variation as to its principle of discipline or the results
either. We have had cause to deplore the period being shortened. In the
case of convicts who have come afterwards into association in public works, it
has been reduced to nine months, and that is rather too short a period for the
amendment of a criminal and his correction.

1121. What in your opinion are the main objects which may be carried
out by the separate" system as applied to county and borough gaols r

I think that the separate system is the best corrective, as well as the most
likely to conduce to tlie reformation of a prisoner.

ii'2_\ Does your view contemplate the infliction of punishment together
with some attempt to reform the individual criminal r

I think that the reformation of a prisoner should always be kept in view,
evtn for the shortest period : but the discii)line should be so adapted as to
meet the changing circumstances of the longer or the shorter sentences.

1123. Does not the fact of a long sentence or a short sentence make the
whole difference in your view of the case r

Yes, in my view of the administration of discipline, it does.

1 124. Do youbeheve that the moral reformation of a prisoner, as it has been
called, could be effectively carried out with a short sentence ?

No ; under such conditions I am of ojjinion that the discipline should be
more directed to deter tlian to reform ; no onc> can hope to reform during very
short periods, and if you fail to deter, you miss both the objects of a sentence.

1 125. Would

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. Ill

1 1 2,5. Would you consider it desirable in the case of short sentences to apply Major-General
industrial training or occupations, such as book-binding or carpentering ? Sir Joshua Jebb,

Under the Act 4tli of George tho 4th it is provided, " That due provision k. c. b.

shall be made in every prison for the enforcement of hard labour in the cases 12th March 1863.

of prisoners sentenced thereto, and for the employment of other prisoners." I

would draw the attention of the Committee to the distinction in this Act be-
tween hard labour and employment. It is further enacted in clause 8, " That
everv prisoner sentenced to hard labour shall, unless prevented by sickness, be
employed so many hours in every day, not exceeding 10, exclusive of the time
allowed for meals, as shall be directed." ISow, the Select Committee on
Prison Discipline of 1850, in their comprehensive and valuable report, state
in resolutiou 13, " That hard labour is not incompatible with separate confine-
ment ; " and in the 25th resolution it is stated, " That provision ought to be
made in every prison for enforcina; sentences of hard labour." The Com-
mittee thus confirmed by their opinion the provisions of the Government Act.

1 1 26. Would you state what in your opinion is the meaning of hard labour,
as applied especially to the shorter sentences of imprisonment r

I think that those two provisions of the Act and the opinion of the Select Com-
mittee of 1850, point to the enforcement of distasteful hard labour of a penal
character, with a view to deter ; that is my interpretation of hard labour. The
employment of prisoners more particularly refers, according to my view, to the
employment that would be given to a prisoner before trial, because the same
Committee recommend that the separate confinement should be applied to pri-
soners hefore trial, whom it would not be legal to punish; and under the Act
of the 2d and 3d of Victoria it is provided, amongst other things, that one of
the conditions shall be, that a prisoner, being kept in separate confinement, shall
be furnished with employment ; but tliat is a different thing to distasteful penal
labour with a view to deter him from crime, and which the Committee lay down
as not being " incompatible."

1127. Lord Steward.'] Are the Committee to understand that employment
would be optional with the prisoner ?

Yes, it would be optional before trial ; employment should be offered to him
as an amelioration of his confinement.

1128. Chairman. ~\ In your opinion does industrial occupation constitute hard
labour of a penal or a distasteful kind 'r

I think not ; as usually understood.

1 1 29. Are you conversant with the system as practised in the gaol at
Reading ?

Not exactly now ; it is some time since I visited that establishment, but when
I was aware of it, it was a system almost entirely identical with that of Pen-
tonville, where prisoners were confined for 12 to 18 months.

1 1 30. Would that, in your opinion, be a proper system to apply to short-
sentence prisoners ?

No.

1131. Would it be likely to have any deterring effect upon them ?
I think not, during short periods.

1132. Would it be likely to have any reforming effect upon them ?

It might to a certain extent, but I do not think that the period of what I
should term short sentences, would admit of the hope that a prisoner would be
reformed under any system ; it would, however, be a protection, and give him
the best chance.

1133. Therefore the Committee are to understand that with reference to the
short-sentence prisoners, at all events, you would impose upon them the hard
labour which you have spoken of as being of a penal and distasteful cha-
racter ?

Yes, certainly ; combined with short separation.

I 1 34. What is the maximum of a short sentence, in point of duration, which
you contemplate in such a case ?

Tiiat would depend very much upon the character of the prisoner. I should
(37. 4-) O4 be

112 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Minor General be disposed to admit of a certain modification in regard to the term for

Siy'Joihua Jebh, which I would administer distasteful hard labour. With regard to the

K.c.B. military prisons, with which I have had some experience, having organized

12th jTrch 186:! tbem, and superintended them for the last 18 years, the Committee npon

_^ " mihtar} prisoners, of which Lord Cathcart was the Chairman, recommended

that the discipline should be as severe as was compatible with the circum-
stances, because it was necessary for other objects to make the sentences very
short, so that a man might return to his regiment : but the Committee were
very anxious not to carry out those sentences in a way that would either degrade
the soldier, or render him reckless and revengeful ; they wished to encourage
hope and amendment on his parr, even during short sentences which now
do not average more than about 60 days. Formerly the average was about 90
days.

1135. Would you be good enough to explain to the Committee what
length of sentence you propose in your idea of a short sentence '!

I have just stated with respect to the short sentences of military prisoners,
that they do not now average more than 60 days, and I should not be disposed
to carry out one uniform rigid hard labour discipline with even those short
sentences, excepting in the case of reconvicted prisoners.

1 136. Lord WodeJiouse.'] Where would you draw the line between them and
the prisoners who may be said to be sentenced for long terms ?

I think that a prisoner sentenced for a month or six weeks might be kept at
hard labour the whole of the time. I do not think that it would be expedient
to make much change in that time.

1137. Chairman.] Would you be of opinion that even up to three months
there was much chance of industrial occupation producing a reformatory
effect upon the prisoner ?

No, I should not ; but in reference to industrial occupation, it might be
granted to some men in the way of a remission in their favour of the hours
of labour, or substituting instruction in school for a portion of the hard labour ;
it would be more in that way that I should make a change under a short sen-
tence of three months, with an ordinary prisoner.

1 1 38. Marquess of Salisbury/.'] Would you combine hard labour, and wha
you have termed employment, in the same individual, with the view of lightening
his term r

Not in a very short term.

1 139. Beyond six weeks I think I understood you to say you would do so ?
Of course I can only epeak in a general way, on a sort of average ; if a

prisoner were in for six weeks, and were an evil-disposed man, it would be
better to endeavour to deter him by severe discipline ; and if he were in for a
longer period, say up to three months, and seemed to deserve it, it then might
be relaxed a little, with a view to encoui-age his good behaviour.

1140. Do you think it desirable in such cases, to combine hard labour with
his being engaged for a portion of his time in employment ?

Yes, I think after a certain period the two might be advantageously combined ;
that is just what is tlone in military prisons.

1141. Chairman.'] And the relaxation itself would be very gradual, and would
go on with the working out of the sentence, would it not ?

Yes, it would be gradual, and would depend in a great measure upon the
chai-acter of the man that you have to deal with.

I I 42. Lord Wodchousc.'] The system whicli you would recommend would be,
that when prisoners who were placed on hard labour, strictly so termed, conduct
themselvcswell, they should have the relaxation of being employed for a portion
of their time in industrial labour, subject to being re-employed upon the more
severe labour if they do not (;ontinuc to conduct themselves well r

Yes. If the Connnittec will allow me I would refer to the Rules for Military
Prisons, for 1851, 1 think they will explain the routine. They are as follows :
" Prisoners generally will, except in very special cases, be placed on reception
in the third class," (that is, the lowest class) " but the governor will exercise

his

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 113

his discretion, except in the case of re-convicted prisoners, in making an early Major-General
selection for promotion to the second or fiist class, of any prisoner who, from Sir Jos/ma Jeb'o,
the nature of his offence, previous good character and conduct in prison, appears k.c.u.

deserving of such distinction." That would be a great encouragement to all ,2th Maicli iSe-i

who intended to do well. " Prisoners who have been previously convicted by a "

court-martial shall, on admission, be placed in the third class, and if previously
convicted within six months of their admission, shall not be promoted to a
higher class until three-fourths of the period of their sentence shall have expired ;
if within 12 months of their admission, not until one-half of their sentence
shall have expired ; and if within 18 months of their admission, not until one-
fourth of their sentence shall have expired. Prisoners who have been previously
convicted, but not within 18 months, maybe promoted to a higher class, at the
discretion of the Governor. On foreign stations the visitors may relax this rule
in the case of prisoneis under sentence for periods exceeding six months. At
home, the visitors will report specially, for the Secretary at War's decision, any cass
in which they recommend the relaxation of this rule in favour of a prisoner, on
account of good conduct. Prisoners in the third class will, by good conduct,
be eligible for promotion into the second class, under tlie above restrictions.
The first class will be composed of those prisoneis who, from their quiet, orderly
habits, and general good conduct under punishment, may appear deserving of
being promoted from the second class, after some experience has been gained
of their characters. Prisoners in either the first or second class will also be
liable to be removed to a lower class for misconduct." Tlie distinction in the
different classes is this : all military prisoners commence by sleeping lor the
first week without a bed, the same as if they were on guard, with nothing
but their blanket. After the first week the third class have a bed given them
every third night ; and they have shot-drill for an hour-and-a-half in the
morning, and an houi'-and-a-half in the afternoon, with 32-lb. shot; they have
oakum-picking for two hours in the evening, and tlieyhave, I think, four hours
of drill in heavy marching order. On being promoted for good conduct to the
second class they get a bed every other night ; they have the shot exercise with a
24-lb. instead of a 32-lb. shot ; and, instead of picking oakum in the evening, they
go to school. The first class are relieved from shot-drill altogether ; they work.
at gun-drill and other things, and they are selected for doing certain duties
of the prison which are of a lighter kind ; they get their bed every night.
Formerly the first was the only class that had meat, and they had a meat dinner
on Sunday ; but now, from some medical testimony in favour of increased diet,
all the prisoners get meat three times a week, as well as the first class.

1 143. Chairman.] Therefore the principle of the system consists in having a
certain variety of classes ?

Yes ; certain gradations in the punishment, and it is in a great degree the
application of the same principle which has been in operation in the convict
prisons. This is one of encouragement, combined with great stringency of
discipline.

1144. From your experience of county and borough prisons generally, are
you of opinion that the principles of that system could be in any way applied to
them r

I have no doubt of it.

114,5. Lord Steward.] Would not the shot-drill be found practically incon-
venient, as being likely to produce rupture ?

We liave never found it so in the military prisons ; it is entirely under the re-
gulation of the medical man, who sees whether a man is fit for it or not ; and it
is so far, perhai)s, easier to carry it out in mihtary prisons than in county
prisons, because there are prescribed orders for the position in which a man shall
stand when he lifts the shot ; but if it were adopted in a county prison, I should
propose to have it on a higher level, so that the prisoner should not have to
stoop down, and then it could not be prejudicial.

1 146. Chairman.'] There could be no apprehension then of rupture?

I should think not ; there has been no inconvenience of that sort felt, the
medical officer having inspected the man before he is put to that kind 'of hard
labour ; but few e-^ceptional cases arise.

(37.4.) P 1147. Are

114 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Major General 1147- Are 3'ou of opinion that shot-drill is very useful either as a prison

A7r Joshua Jebb, punishment or as a disciplinary stage ?

^^^' I think it is a punishment that the prisoners dislike very much, and that it

liiliMarch 1863. h^s the merit of being- exceedingly economical in its first establishment.

1 1 48. Lord Steward.] 1 las it a prejudicial effect upon the temper of the men,
and does it make them irritable and discontented ':

I think not ; we have never found it so ; it is not carried out for any great
length of time ; an hour and a half in the morning and an hour and a half in
the afternoon is all.

1 140. You do not think that they dislike what they must know to be unpro-
ductive labour ?

No. that makes it more penal, and they feel it to be penal labour. It would
appear to be an object to be kept in view.

1150. Marquess of Salisbury.'] How is the shot-drill carried on ?

There are various ways in which it is carried on, which are perhaps difficult to
ex])lain, but I could state it simply thus : — A row of shot are laid on the ground,
or rather on a small block to raise them a few inches fi'om the ground in a line.
The men are formed up in the rear of the siiot, and on a signal thev stoop
down and take the shot up, and then face to the right or left, march three or
four paces to where the next shot was, and set it down again; on a signal
they take up the shot again, march back, and replace them where they took
them from. That is the most severe way of carrying out the drill, from a man
having the shot always in hand ; in the other way, where it is deposited in
a pile, the man comes back to his place empty-handed.

1151. Chairman.~\ You may carry the drill to any extent of complication, and
you may keep it exceedingly simple, may you not ?

It may be very simple ; that depends a good deal upon the number; if there
are a large number of prisoners, they do it in successive lines, perhaps 10 or 15
men in a line.

1152. Marquess of Salisbury.] At what pace are they bound to lift those shot ?
About the ordinary quick time, or rather slower, I think. Here is a diagram

(produci?)^ {be same), which will explain the shot drill to the Committee.— (7'Ae
Ifit?ie.-<s ddivtred in tlie name. Vide Appendix.)

1 153. Does this diagram give the time.-
Yes, it gives the whole process.

1 1 54. Does it give the pace at which they go ?

1 do not think that that is named ; they take a steady pace ; they have only
three or four paces to take ; they just take the pace, and do it altogether ; they
do it by signal, and so many are lifted in a minute.

1155. Chairman.] I beheve the system which is pursued in the military
l)ri.sons has been applied to the naval prisons which have been recently
established ?

There has been a naval prison recently established at Lewes on the plan of
the military prisons.

1 i5(i. Is the shot-drill practised in the naval prisons ?
Yes, it is in the prison at Lewes.

7 1:,7. Consequently there would be no more difficulty in applying a simpler
form of shot-drill to agricultural labourers than there would be in applying it
to sailors ?

I think not ; they would very soon fall into it.

1158. May the Committee, therefore, understand that you would recom-
mend shot-drill as one of the employments for ])risoners, either in the nature of
])uni^hnient, or in the nature uf a disciplinary stage through which tliey must
pass ?

I think it would be a very good means of enforcing hard labour. It has been
enforced in that way in some county prisons ; and probably evidence might be
obtained from those prisons on the subject.

1159. Duke

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PraSON DISCIPLINE. 115

1150. Duke of Richmond.] Do you prefer the shot drill to the treadwheel Mnjor-General
or tlie 'crank ? '^'' "^k.^ b/'**'

The treadwheel is, I think, in some respects bettei-, especially, that it may '

be subdivided into compartments, and therefore you could carry en separate lisih March 1863.
confinement in connexiini with hard labour ; this coukl not well be effected — — —
with shot-drill. Tliat is the only objection that I have to shot-drill for the
county prisons ; I do not quite see the way in which it could be carried out
in separation.

11 60. Would not the treadwheel have the effect of keeping the prisoner's
muscles in better order than the shot-drill ?

I think it might.

1161. My question supposes that the treadwheel is properly constructed,
^vhere both arms and feet are brought into exei'cise r

Just so.

1162. Chairman.'] Are the Committee to presume that a variety of prison
punishments is, in your opinion, desirable ?

Ido not know that anvgreat variety would be desirable, except that some punish-
ments may be applied to certain individuals that cannot be applied to others.

1 163. Are you of opinion that the crank is a useful form of punishment r

I think it is, but it is open to this objection, that if the governor has the
power of putting on the screw too tightly, he can, at his own discretion, increase
the hard labour beyond what was perhaps contemplated ; and there is also this
further objection, that if the machinery is not kept well oileil and in very good
order, all the diflerence in the hard labour falls upon the prisoner.

1164. Would it not, however, be possible to remedy that by having one
uniform amount of pressure b)' which every crank could be regulated?

There might be a very low maximum, and that, I think, would do it.

1 165. Following up a question of the noble Duke's, would it not perhaps be
desirable to have the ciank lor one set of prisoners, and the treadwheel for
another, and shot-drill for a third set of prisoners, in order to call the different
muscles of the body into play in turn ?

I think it would be possible, and it might be convenient ; and if one were
more distasteful than another, or of a more penal character, that would fall in
very well with the gradations in punishment.

1 1 G6. Lord Steward.'] Is not the crank labour liable to the same objection as
shot-drill, that you cannot carry it out separately ?

No ; the crank luay be put into a cell, or through the whole range of cells, or
the crank can be easily arranged in compartments out of doors, and applied for
pumping or other work.

1 1 67. Chairman.] There are two forms of crank which are commonly in use in
prisons, the one which has one continuous bar connecting every crank together,
and the other, which is commonly known by the name of the hard labour crank,
or the cellular crank, which employs one single man to turn it ; to which are
you alluding ?

I was explaining both. One maybe made for each separate cell, or a line of
cranks may run through the whole of the cells. Tlie one in the separate cell is
the most penal of the two, because every one must do his share, whereas in a line
of cranks it is very difficult to regulate it ; one man might merely allow the
crank to go round, and the others would be turning it, whilst he was not helping
at all.

1 168. Do you see any objection to the use of the hard labour or unproductive
crank as constituting a penal stage ?

It is a highly penal labour.

1 169. Provided that the regulation of the screw was satisfactory, and that the
pressure was not excessive, would you have any objection to it then as a
punishment ?

The only objection that occurs to me is that the cells, as usually constructed,
have scarcely enough means of ventilation for that purpose, and they become
too hot.

(37- 4-) p2 1170. Supposing

] \G MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Majoi-Gmeral 1 ' 70- Supposing that the amount of pressure can be satisfactorily regulated.

Sir Joshua Jebb, and that the crank itself is erected, not in the cell, but in some more convenient

^•^•"' place, where there is a free admission of air, would you then be of opinion that

i2tli March 1863 ^* ^^"^"^ ^^^ undesirablf mode of prison punishment?

J " JNot at all.

1171. Lord Wodehoiuse.] Would it not be very difficult indeed, without occu-
pying too much space, to have cranks sejiarate the one from the other at which
the prisoners could work, and which would not be in tlie cells ?

J^o, it is a very narrow machine, and small compartments, such as you see
the treadwheel divided into, or rather wider, woidd be sufficient for separate
cranks.

1172. Chairman.^ It is smaller in bulk, is it not, than the crank, which is
connected by one continuous shaft ?

Yes, it is very narrow.

1173. Duke oi lUclnnoud.'] Are you alluding to the description of crank
which is now in use in the Petworth gaol ?

I have not seen that crank. I think there are some at Winchester, and some
at Lewes in the separate cells.

1174. Lord Wcdehouse.'] If I understand you rightly, you do not think that
one separate crank would occupy more space, if so much, than the treadwheel
at present?

No, I do not think it would ; it would not require so large a building.

1:75. Earl of Diic/e.] Is it a fact, that the hard labour or vmproductive crank
is generally discontinued in prisons now?
That I am not aware of.

1 176. Is it within your knowledge, that the infliction of this punishment of
the unpiuductive crank leads to insubordination, produced by irritation and
despair on the part of the prisoners ?

I have not heard of that ; the Inspector of Prisons will be able to give the
Committee information on that subject.

1177. Is the unproductive crank a more irritating and disheartening labour
than the shot-drill would be ?

That would depend upon circumstances ; but I think it just possible that it
might be so, from being more continuous.

1 178. Chairman.'] Is there not this difference with regard to the unpi'oductive
crank, that in some cases the index of the work done is within sight of the
prisoner, and in other cases the index is placed outside the door of the cell ?

Yes ; I liave seen it both ways.

1 179. Would you not suppose that that constitutes a considerable difference,
and that the prisoner, if he could measure the amount of work done as he
effected the revolutions of the crank, would be less disposed to feel that
irritating and depressing- influence ?

1 hat would depend very much upon circumstances ; some prisoners will
resist anything that is disagreeable to them.

1 180. Duke of Marlborough.'] From your experience, do you disapprove of
improductive labour ?

Ko, I do not at all disapprove of unproductive labour when you are enforcing
a sentence of liard labour. The labour that is the most productive, as far as
the county rates arc concerned, is tli:it which will keep a man out of prison ;
and if a prisoner is placed merely in industrial employment for a very short
time, it cannot have the same deterring influence that penal labour has.

1181. Then your answer would extend simply to short terms of imprisonment?
To short terms entirely ; because in the convict prisons where we have long

terms, we trust mainly to the deterring influence of loss of liberty. We begin
fi-om the first day a man enters Pentonville to occujjy him at industrial employ-
ments, because the length of the period of confinement will have a sufficiently
deterring effect on the man himself, and out of doors as an exemplary punish-
ment.

1 182. Duke

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 117

1182. Duke of Riclimor.d.'] Do you think it possible in short sentences to Maior-Gtmrnl
carry out the system of industrial employment ? Sir Joshua Jcbh,

Not during short sentences ; at least not to advantage. k.c.b.

1 183. Would it be practicable, in sentences varying from three weeks up to i^ih March 1SG3,
six weeks in agricultural districts, to carry out the system of industrial employ- — — —
ment ?

I should think not.. They would know nothing when they came in, and they
could not learn anything. I do not call oakum-picking an industrial employ-
ment ; tiiat is a penal labour of a light description.

1184. Lord Stauard.'] You stated also, did you not, that you did not approve
of the introduction of the Pentonville system into county prisons ?

No, not for short terms.

1185. Earl Cutlicarl.] In your evidence this morning you have laid great
stress upon two points, namely, with reference to the importance of separation,
and the ad vantage of uniformity of system throughout the country.

Yes.

1186. With regard to separation, you must very much lament the circum-
stances which occur at this moment in some prisons in England, namely, the
association, of whicli C'oldbath Fields is an example, where many prisoners
are associated together at night time upon beds laid down upon the floor, and
nearly seventy in a room ?

Veiy much indeed, nothing can be worse.

1187. With regard to uniformity of system throughout the country, could
you suggest to their Lordships any system by which that uniformity throughout
the country might be secured, which you have stated that you consider to be
a matter of very great importance indeed ?

Ihere is a very considerable approximation to uniformity of construction
now in the country generally ; and 1 tlujik it is almost a question for your
Lordships to consider whether the permissive clause of the 2d & 3d of
Victoria, chapter 56, which allows of separate confinement being carried out,
should, with a view to establishing uniformity of discipline, be made compulsory,
instead of merely permissive. The clause states, " And be it declared and
enacted. That separate confinement under the provisions of this Act shall not
be deemed solitary confinement within the meaning of any Act forbidding the
continuance of solitary confinement for more than a limited time ;" but the
adoption of the system is left with the magistrates. Lord John Russell in 1837
strongly recommended the adoption of the principle in a circular.

n88. Do you not think that the inspection of prisons by the Crown
Inspectors, to be followed immediately by a report, would have a good deal to
do in securing uniformity f

I think the law would require to be clearly laid down first, and the regulations
for enforcing the law.

1 189. And publicity in this, as in other matters in this country, is a matter
of great importance, is it not?

Certainly.

1 1 90. With regard to the inspection of prisons, do you think that two inspectors
are sufficient to inspect all the prisons and places of detention in England ?

I cannot offer an opinion upon that point.

iiQi. Do you not think that it is a matter of importance that the report of
the inspector should be sent through the Home Office to the quarter sessions
as soon as j^ossible after his inspection ?

I should think so, certainly.

1 1Q2. The effect of the report would be very much dependent, would it not,
upon its (;oming immediately after the inspection, wliich led to the report ?

It might perhaps be difficult to secure a report immediately afterwards,
because the inspection goes on throughout the year, and by the Act of Parliament
the report is onl}' laid before Parliament at certain periods.

1193. By some modification of the existing system, do you not think it
important that the quarter sessions should receive the report of the inspector as
soon as possible after the inspection ?

(37. 4.) p 3 I think

118 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

MttjoT-General I think it would be desirable that a copy of the report should be forwarded
-Sir Joshua Jebh, to iiiagistrates,

K.C.B.

1194- With regard to my former question, do you think that two inspectors

•12th March 1863. can efficiently inspect all the prisons in England ?

Where there is a considerable degree of uniformity they would not require

the same amount of inspection.

1 iQ.T. But could they do so under the existing system with the present want
of uniformity 1

Until greater uniformity exists in prisons they would require very close
inspection.

1196. Do not you think it a matter of very great importance that every
prison and every house of detention should be inspected at least once a year ?
I should think so.

1 107. Are you not aware that that is not now the case ?
I am not aware of that.

1198. You are probably aware, from your knowledge of the sentences of
criminals, that there is throughout the country an extraordinary diversity of
sentences for the same offences ?

Yes, that is the most m.arkefl feature in the administration of the law.

1 ■. 09. Has it not struck you that that is an anomaly, which if it were possible,
should be removed?

You cannot fetter the discretion of a judge.

1200. But the matter has attracted your attention, has it not ?

Yes, and I feel it very much in the convict prisons under the present Act of
1857, liy which the judge may sentence a man for the same offence either to
seven years' penal servitude or to three, v.hich makes a very material difference
in the discipline, fiom a feeling on the part of many prisoners that the sentence
is unjust.

1 201 . With regard to the history of prisoners, do you not think that it would
be of very great importance indeed that some system of inter-communication
between the ])risons should be organized by which the previous history of
prisoners should be better traced than is the case at present 'i

It is a very inijiortant thing that there should be full and complete commu-
nication between the Home Secretary and the governors of prisons, and between
the governor of one prison and of another, respecting the antecedents of pri-
soners.

1202. Are you aware that at the present momenta number of prisoners
receive inadequate sentences because their previous history has not been
traced ?

Yes.

1 203. Are you aware whetlier the table of fees at present existing militates
against the proper administration of justice in that respect ?

I am not sure that it does to any great extent ; it is, 1 believe, known that
the habitual thieves remain in the same locahties, and do not travel about very
much.

^10J,. Do you think that in some instances prison officers are deterred from
coming forward to give information as to the antecedents of a prisoner from the
inad<>quacy of their remuneration r

That I am not aware of.

120.> IjQviS. Lijveden.\ Will you i)oint out to the Committee how you think
an alteration in the Act which you have just mentioned would secure uni-
formity in the system ?

Prc-ssurt' would be brought upon those counties and boroughs which had not
got a prison apjjlicable to separate confinement.

1 206. How does that stand at pi-esent ?

The clause to adopt separate confinement is permissive, and by a subse-
quent clause certain conditions with regard to the cells are to be enforced.

1 207. Your

SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 119

1207. Your notion is, that if it was made compulsory to adopt separate con- Major-General.
finement everywhere, that would to a great extent secure uniformity of Sir Juihuu Jebb,

■' ' K.C.E.

system f

Yes, it would secure uniformity of system to a great extent; but I still 12th March 1863.

think that a great deal might be done by rules, because I. know of one prison

especially which is on the old construction (I speak now of the prison at Bris-
tol), wb.ere a most effective discipline is well kept up by the governor, with
very inadequate means as ngards construction : he has small cells, which are
only fit for sleeping in, and cannot be certified for separate confinement ; but
by dividing his treadwheel into close compartments, and letting out the ])ri-
soners from their cells at certain distances from each other, and shutting them
up in the compartments of the treadwheel, and marching them back again to
their cells in the same way, no two prisoners can ever see each other, and he
really obtains the advantages of separate confinement without the expense which
would be entailed by the construction of a prison.

1 208. These regulations which you speak of could be issued from the Home
Office without any alteration in the Act of Parliament, could they not ?

I am not aware of the extent of the power which the Secretary of State
could exercise. They could oiiginate with the visiting- Justices, and be ap-
proved by the Secretary of State. I believe, however, that the Secretary of
State has power to lay down any rule in addition to those which the justices
propose.

1209. Duke of Marlborough ?j Are you aware that there are some instances
in which prisons have no rules at all ?

I am not aware.

1210. Are you aware that at present the Secretary of State has no power to
enforce rules ?

1 think that his power is very inadequate, as far as I have understood ; but I
am not personally acquainted with that subject.

1211. At present there is no penalty in the Act for the non-observance of
any of the rules furnished by the Secretary of State ?

There is no penal clause, so that virtually he has not power to enforce
rules, excepting, I suppose, by mandamus.

1212. Should you think it would be an improvement which you would con-
temi)!ate in any legislation on this subject that power should be given to the Se-
cretary of State absolutely to enforce rules if they are not observed by prisons ?

I think so.

1213. In any case should you consider that it would be an advisable change
m the law that the Government should require the magistrates to frame rules
according to their ai)proval. and in the failure of those rules beiug so framed by
the magistrates the Government should have the power to frame rules of their
own, and send them dovvn to the gaols ?

I almost think that the power exists at present in the Home Secretarv ; I
think he has the power under the Act ; but from the want of a penal clause to
enforce the observance of his directions, it would be inoperative ; but I speak
under correction.

1214. Is it your idea, from the knowledge which you have of the state of the
law, that it was the intention of the legislature to confer that power on the
Home Secretary ?

I think so, at least to recognize the power.

1215. Earl of liovwey.'] With regard to the classification and promotion which
you suggested, and whicii is in use in military prisons, do you think that could
be carried out in county prisons ?

1 think it would be very easy to do so.

1216. Would there not be this difficulty, that the men in those prisons are
in for only a very short time ?

All tlu'se that were in for a very short period would be kept in one class, the
lowest class ; it would only come into operation for those who might be in for
two or three months ; then it might come into operation in that difficulty.

(37. 4.) P 4 \2\ 7. To

120 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Muj jr-Gencral ^'2\j. To wliom do you give the power of raising them from one class to the

Sir Joshua Jebb, other ?

^^- I think it would be for tlie governor to submit their names to the visitor of

12th Marcl. .863. tl^^ "'^^^'^ foi" ^"^ approval.

1 2 1 S. Would not it have the effect that there would be nothing certain

in the sentences ; if a man is sentenced to four months' or six months' impri-
sonment, and it is competent to the visitor of the gaol to move the man up or
down in those classes, would they not by that means increase or diminish the
sentence ?

I think, taking a practical view of the matter, if we were to assume the
present discipline for the second class to l)e the medium discipline, it wDuld be
more stringent discipline for the lowest class, and perhaps a less stringent dis-
cipline for the higher class. I do not think it would make the punishment less
certain because the discipline even of the first class for the short sentences ought
to be very severe. '

1 Ji()- But no one would know when a sentence was passed for four months
what it really was. As the matter stands novs', you turn to the dietary, and you
turn to the punishments, and you know what four months means ; but if the
authority in the prison has the power of altering it, a judge, however well in-
formed u]ion the subject, does not know whether his sentence is carried out ?

He w ould not alter the term of confinement for a day, nor the dietary as laid
down, but there would be some little variation for the purpose of working the
discii)line, with a view* to the good influence it might iiave upon the prisoner ;
it woijld not, I think, make it less certain.

1220. Then, by a combination of the dietary and labour together, a sentence
of 21 days is a much more severe sentence than one of six months, is it not ?

Ws, for a time.

1221. And a sentence of four months would perhaps be more severe tliaa
one of six montlis ?

Yes, for a time ; but the longer tlie sentence the more severe on the whole.

122 2. If it is competent to the authorities in prisons to lift the prisoner up to a
higliei- class, the effect of tliat sentence which it was intended to have when it
was passed would be taken away, would it not r

I should not vary the dietary. The dietary would probably remain as at
present, because it is regulated by the period of confinement more than any-
thing else.

1223. Chairman.'] Besides the dietary and the hard labour which form
constituent parts of the discipline of a prison, you naturally look, do you not,
to the influence which the cell has upon the mind of a prisoner ?

Yes.

1224. Are you aware of the character of that discipline, so far as the
separate cell is concerned, in the majority of prisons in England ?

1 luive no doubt of its having a very corrective effect upon the mind of a
prisoner.

1225. Would you propose to provide for any uniformity as regards the
clothing of the prisoners in their cells, or the bedding which they are to occupy,
or the books whicih they are to receive whilst they are in the cell, or any other
indulgences which are sometimes allowed r

That might be a matter for consideration in framing the different gradations
of punishnfent. The deprivation of bed is one essential element of deterring
discipline.

1226. Do you see any advantnge in the use of the hammocks which are
verv frequently used in manv gaols ?

The particular advantage of them is that they roll up during the day, and
give you the whole space of the cell for carrying on any employment which
you may prescribe.

1227. Do not you think that it leads very often to a good deal of self-indul-
gence,'and that it is, on the whole, an easier and more comfortable mode of
sleeping than that which most prisoners enjoy out of prison ?

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON' DISCIPLINE. 121

It is a very comfortable bed, tbere is no doubt ; but, as I have stated, our Mojor-General

great object is to have the whole cell as vacant as possible if you employ Sir Joshua Jebb,

the prisoner in it ; and in that case a standing bedstead would occupy more k.c.^.

space than was convenient. I think, as far as indulgence goes, that a i^ih March 1863.

man cannot make use of his hammock during the day at all. It is rolled up

and put away, and he would make use of his bedstead if it were there.

1228. Are you aware whether in many gaols the hours of sleep are not
extended to 12, 14, and even 16 hours?
That I am not aware of.

1 220. In your opinion, what is the maximum which ought to be allowed r
That would depend in some measure upon circumstances. If you have a

thorough means of lighting the prison, I do not think there ought to be any

difterence in the hours of labour or of sleep the whole year round.

1230. The Committee of tlie House of Commons in 1850 recommended
a maximum of eight hours' sleep ; do you agree with that r

Eight hours would be about what 1 should say was proper ; going to bed at
nine, they would rise at live.

1231. Do you not conceive that by thus reducing the hours of sleep to eight,
which is an unusually low number in most gaols, you might utilize the two or
three hours that would be gained, by employing them in instruction ?

Yes, I think you might. It would afford an opportunity of carrying out the
full maximum of 10 hours of hard labour, and you might give instruction in
addition, or take the instruction out of a part of the 10 hours.

1232. There are some gaols where the hours of hard labour at the crank, or
the treadwheel either, do not exceed two or three, or are absolutely none at
all ; are you of opinion that a sentence of hard labour pronounced in court is
satisfactorily and fairly can-itd out in such a case ?

I should say it was not carried out at all.

1233. I presume, that in your opinion the employment of a prisoner in an
industi'ial occupation would not be a legitimate carrying out of such a sentence?

I do not think it is within the meaning of the Act of the 4th of George the
Fourth.

1234. With regard to the punishments which are inflicted in prison for
prison offences, they may be divided, may they not, into corporal punish-
ments, into punishments of dietary, into solitary confinements, and into
reproofs or admonitions ?

Generally speaking, that is the range of punishment which is within the
power of the governors or the visiting justices to infliet.

1235. Are you aware whelher there is any other punishment in use in
any gaols ?

I am not aware that there is.

1236. Will you be good enough to give the Committee your opinion upon
those different forms of punishment ; you are probably acquainted with the
effect that corporal punishment produces in reference to prison offences ?

Corporal punishment in the convict prisons is administered for offences of
violence. I have here a list of thf offences, and they consist of mutiny or open
incitement to mutiny in the prison ; personal violence to any officer or servant to
the prison, or to a fellow-prisoner, or threats of such violence ; grossly offensive
or abusive language to any officer or servant of the prison, and several other
offences. Corporal punishment is usually confined in the convict prisons to acts
of violence, and the number of lashes to which we are now restricted is 24.

1237. Are you aware whether in county or in borough prisons the use of
corporal punishment has been found very effectual?

That I am not aware of.

1238. Are you of opinion that the stoppage of diet is a satisfactory punish-
ment ?

Yes ; I think it is.

(37.4-) Q 1239. Does

122 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Mdjur-Gefieial 1 039. Does nut that imply that the diet itself must be rather in excess, if that

^zr Joshua Jeub, g^oppage can be effected foi" several days lunning ?

' Not always. It is the punishuient of hunger that is inflicted upon the man,

a 2th March 18G3. and I (lo not think it is an argument that the diet is in excess if you can give

him his bread and water, or a diminution of diet, without seriously injuring his

health.

1 240. Have not some prisoners been kept in a dark cell on bread and water
for a good many days running I

There i? a limit to that in military prisons, but I do not quite know what the
limit is in other prisons.

1241. Wliat is the limit in military prisons?
I think it is three days.

1242. Are you of opinion that solitary confinement at certain periods is of
advantage as a prison punishment ?

I think that solitary confinement, alternating with confinement with hard
labovn-, is a very good punishment, and it is very extensively adopted now in
the army in sentences by courts- martial, and is introduced into the Mutiny
Act ; it is seven days' solitary confinement, alternating with seven days' hard
labour, and so on, taking cure not to exceed the maximum amount of solitary
confinement which can be awarded within the twelve months.

1243. Will you explain to the Committee what you mean by solitary confine-
ment in such a case ?

Solitary confinement is confinement without employment in a light cell.

1244. W ould you allow in such a case the use of any book at all.-
No book but the Bible is allowed in the convict prisons.

1245. Is the chaplain allowed to have admittance to the cells?

The chaplain is allowed to visit the prisoners, and the medical officer and
the governor of course visits them every day.

124C. Are the warders allowed to interchange any words with the prisoner?
No, they merely serve him with his meals.

1247. Are you of opinion that such a system could be applied as a short
stage for the short-sentence prisoners, or as a preliminary stage for the longer
sentence prisoners ?

It would depend a little upon the character of the men. Seme men might
prefer a sentence of seven days' solitary confinement, where he could lounge his
time away in his cell, to seven days' hard labour at the crank.

1 248. Would you see any objection to enforcing solitary confinement for
three weeks, sujiposing there were nothing objectionable in an individual case ?

No, I do not see that there would be any objection in that. I am not sure
that it would be so severe a punishment as alternating it one week after the
other with hard labour.

1249. To what extent are reproofs administered as punishments in military-
prisons r

Whenever tlie oovernor sees that the offence does not require a greater
punishment than an admonition, or that an admonition will have a better effect
upon the prisoner, he exercises his discretion in giving him that admonition.

1 250. The admonition ranks in the nature of a punishment, does it not ; that
is to say, it is entered and re[Jorted as such ?

Yes, it is entered in the Defaultei's' Report Book.

12.51. If two admonitions fohow each other closely, is it the rule that a
punislinient of a different nature is inflicted?

Not a punishment in addition, but the governor would exercise his discretion
as to wliether he shoidd not punish the man instead of admonishing him. If
that admoriition should be of no use, 1 should think the natural course would
be to try j)unishnient for the next offence.

i-2.'i2. Can you state the proportion of admonitions to other punishments ?
No, I cannot.

1253. Would

SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCirLINE. 123

1 253. Would you state briefly to the Committee what is the nature of the Mqjor-Gene<-af

changes which have been effected in niihtary jn-isons within the last ten years ? ^"' •^o*''"<* -ft^^^,

There have been no changes, I think, excepting in reference to diet ; the diet ^' ^' "'

has been increased as I have mentioned. 12th March 1863.

1 254. Marquess of Salisbury.'] Can you give any reason for the alteration of
diet ?

It has been done on medical grounds.

12.55. Has any report been published on this subject?
I am not aware of any report having been published.

1 2 "6. Was it submitted to you ?

There were representations from the medical officers to the Secretary of State
for War, which led to the consideration of the diet being increased in conse-
quence of the loss of weight of the men and other circumstances.

1257. Are you aware that in one of your reports it is stated that, notwith-
standing the loss of weight of the men, the health of the ])risoners was better ?

For 12 or 14 years I should think the military prisons were carried on
without the use of any meat at all except for the first class, and tlie health of
the men was certainly, generally speaking, good ; but it was some change which
took placf in the views of the medical men or in the condition of the prisoners
which led to their receiving meat on three days in the week.

1258. There is, in your Report for 1859-60, a table which shows that, not-
withstanding the decrease in weight, there was a marked improvement in the
health of the prisoners ?

Yes, that was in some particular prison, I think. The report states : " Not-
withstanding the apparent effect of the punishment in causing a considerable
average loss of weight, it is remarkable and satisfactory that the number
treated for sickness during the years 1859 and 1860 was proportionately less
than in any year since 1848."

1 259. Is there any change of the kind mentioned in your report for the suc-
ceeding year 1860-61 ?

"Yes ; I state, at page 16, " An improved scale of diet, which had been in use
in the military prison at Aldershot since August 1 858, was provisionally adopted
for prisoners engaged at hard labour in military prisons at home stations in
September 1861 ;" and following that is the scale. But all the changes in diet
have been made entirely on the strong representations of medical officers, and
there are different views entertained by medical officers upon this as upon other
subjects. But it is difficult to resist a medical opinion when it is accompanied
by any statement saying that the health of prisoners is less satisfactory than it
ought to be. That has been the pressure brought upon the .Secretary of State
for War by the medical department of the Army : otherwise I think that the diet
would have been continued as it was originally intended.

1260. In your experience was it satisfactory }

I think that the diet was sufficient before, and I think I may say more ; I
think that they are beginning to find out that in some respects it is now too
good.

1261. Duke oi Richmond.] Is it not the case, that wdiat may be a sufficient
diet in one prison may not be sufficient in another ?

A good deal depends upon the climate, and I have no doubt a good deal
depends upon the class of prisoners that you have, and the habits of life to which
they have been accustomed ; in some counties they live better than in others.
Now, men accustomed to live well cannot bear the loss of the stimulants which
they have been in the habit of receiving, or the loss of sustenance.

I2fi2. Earl Cathcart.'] Dr. Brinton, the physician of St. Thomas's Hospital,
the latest authority I believe (ui the subject of food, and an authority of repute,
has laid it down, that although an insufficient diet may not show itself for a
time in telling upon a man, yet that afterwards it may slowly but surely sap his
constitution ; should you think from your experience that there was any truth
in that observation ?

(37 4.) Q 2 I think

124 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Major -General I think it is very possible, but our experience is confined to the pei'iod whilst

Sir Joshva Jebb, ^he inan is in custody.

K. C. B.

3263. After that you have no subsequent reports of the state of health of

,2th March 1863. those men?

~ I think there has been no subsequent report of the health of men suffering

after they have joined their corps.

1 264. Probably medical men in the army may have had opportunities of
judging subsequently to the prisoner's discharge from military prisons?

During a short period afterwards, I think it has been represented that the
men did not join their regiments in a fit state for duty ; why the change took
place I do not know.

1 265. You, as a military man, probably would say that the surgeon in a regi-
ment had great oppoitunities of judging and knowing a man's previous history,
and weekly opportunities of judging afterwards, and he would be a very good
authority upon the subject ?

Yes ; and it has been the weight which has been attached to those opinions
which has led to the diet being increased.

1266. Would those opinions carry very great weight in your mind also }
Certainly, if the point was clearly established.

1267. Do you not think that no medical men have so many opportunities of
judging as military nicdical men, because of their knowledge of the previous
history of the men, and their weekly opportunities of observing them after-
wards r

Yes, certainly.

1 268. Earl of Ronriiei/.'l Would it not make a great difference whether the man
was in prison for a very long time or not ?

Yes ; our present dietary provides, that after 56 days the diet shall be higher
than in the earlier jieriod ; but it is also a fact in medical science, which was
strongly stated attlie time when Pentonville Prison was first opened, that it was
of great importance in long sentences to commence with a good diet, and never
to let a man be down in his health at all ; that if he were once let down it would
be very difficult indeed to get him up again under the depressing influences of
separate confinement.

1 269. Did I'ou ever hear of a case where it was necessary to alter the system of
feeding within a prison because of the harm done by the system of feeding low
at the beginnini: and increasing- it at the latter end ?

No, I do not think I have ; but I believe the scales of diet are laid down
rather with reference to that in the Secretary of State's rules.

1 270. What is the longest sentence that you know of in a military prison ?
In ordinary cases not more than a year, but the average is not more than GO

days.

1271. Earl Catl/caiL] A scientific witness the other day before their Lord-
ships informed them, that in his opinion wheaten bread and milk would form a
very good diet ; do }'ou concur in that opinion ?

Yes ; there is a good deal of milk in the diet of military prisons.

1 27J. 1 have made inquiry at a large establishment in London, and I find that
the price of milk per quart is 4 fl., and the ])rice of stock-beef, used in making
soup, is also 4 d. a pound ; assuming the prices to be comparative throughout
the country, do you think that that would be an economical diet ?

I am not jjrcpared to say the relative amount of sustenance in milk and
meat, according to price.

1 273. Marquess of Salisbury.'] The expense of the military prisons does not
amount altogether to the pay of the soldier, does it ?

Generally .•^jjeaking, the stoppage of the pay and beer-money of the soldier
covers the entire expen.se of military prisons.

1 274. What is the amount of a soldier's pay ?
I think it is 1 *. 1 ^. a day.

1275. Earl

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 125

1275. Eavl of Ducie.'] Do you find the system in military prisons satisfactory Major- General

as far as the health of prisoners is concerned ? *'• "JJ'J"^/'**'

Yes, very satisfactory.

1 276. Do you find it to be a system which is easily and economically worked ? T^^th March 1803.
It is very easily and very economically worked also, I think.

1277. Is it within your experience that it is deterrent in its influence?
Certainly.

1278. Is it a system which is only adapted to young men with healthy and
vigorous constitutions 'r

I think that any man of middle age would go through it very well; it per-
haps may not be "exactly adapted to what you would call old men, but with a
few exceptions it is adapted to the generahty of prisoners, such as you see in
county gaols.

1279. It is a great deal more severe than the ordinary discipline of county
prisons, is it not r

I think it is more stringent.

1280. Would you recommend that in short sentences in county prisons a
system should be introduced which should bring in some of the severities of
military prisons ?

I think it would in many cases be an improvement.

128 J. Lord Lyved(:n.'\ How do \ou prove that it is deterrent?

By this circumstance: when Lord Cathcart's Committee sat in 1842 or 1843,
a return was called for from all the regiments in the service to know how many
men were in confinement under sentence of court-martial at that time, and
what the average rate of flogging per 1,000 was ; and I tliink the returns were
that three per cent, of the men were at that time in confinement in county
gaols under sentence of imprisonment by courts-martial, and that the rate of
flogging in the army was five per cent. ; and, based upon these data, we formed
our calculations as to the accumulations that would be required, and the pre-
sent discipline had not been introduced more than 12 months before there was
a very manifest diminution in the number of men under sentence of confine-
ment ; that was concurrent with a diminution in the number sentenced to
flogging; and that went on, and in fact has been going on until the present
time ; I do not believe that the number now in either case is one-half of what
it was.

1282. Do you find the same prisoners return ?

Not very many ; the re- convictions do not take place in any very great pro-
portion.

1283. Do they speak of it as a great penalty?

Yes ; the system of discipline in military prisons is severe, and well adapted
for short sentences.

1 284. Duke of Richmond^] I understood you to tell the noble Lord that you
thought it woidd be advisable to introduce into county prisons some of the
severities of the mihtary system of iuiprisonment ; what portion of military dis-
cipline did you allude to when you gave that answer ?

I think that the deterring elements of the punishment are hard labour, hard
fare, and a hard bed ; and for the lowest class in a civil or a military prison, I
should projiose that those elements were applied, as far as they could consis-
tently, with a view to deter the lutn from crime.

12S-. Do you conceive that there is much difi^erence in severity between the
treadwheel and the shot-drill ?

i should think that the shot-drill is the most severe, from this circumstance,
that we nrc obliged to limit it to an hour and a half in the morning, and an hour
and a half in the afternoon, and the treadwheel can be worked all day.

1 2Sfi. Lord Lyveden.] Do you consider the fare of prisoners much harder
than that of the same class of persons when they are living at home ?

One can hardly compare the diet in a prison to what a labourer gets at home i
the conditions are so different.

(37.4.) Q 3 1287. But

126 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Major-Gcnend ^ 12 87. But when you speak of the deterring effect, you must mean that the
Sir Joshua JeLb, fare is harder than a man is accustomed to; otherwise, how can it be
K. c. B. deterring ?

12th March 1863. '^^^^ ^'"'^ f^^^ that I should refer to is giving as httle as is consistent with

the health of a man, and a kind of diet not such as he is perhaps accustomed

to would be useful.

1288. Are you prepared to say that tlie peasantry of this country in general
get more than is consistent with their health ?

It is a very dilticult question to compare the diet in prison with that of an
ordinary labourer out of doors.

1289. When you say that hard fare is a deterring cause, you are bound to
prove that it is harder than what the parties get out of doors ?

I shoidd give as little diet as would keep a man in health ; and the hard
labour and deprivation of liberty will do the rest.

i-.r90. Duke of Mctiiborough.'] It was given in evidence before this Committee
the oiher day by a medical witness, that a proper amuunt of exercise admi-
nistered to a prisoner either in the shape of walking exercise or hard labour
acted beneficially upon his system by enabling him the better to digest the food
that he received in ])rison, and so did away with the necessity of giving him a
superior kind of food ; does your expex-ience at all bear out that opinion r

I think that the fact of prisoners in separate confinement requiring a very
large amount of food to support them against the depressing influence, as it is
termed, of separate confinement, may partly arise from the less amount of
exercise they get, because it is really a fact that though the men are not
required to use great bodily exertion in the trades which they carry on, they
do require more food than men would require out of doors.

1291. So that if a proper amount of exercise were given to prisoners, with a
proper amount of fresh air, they might still be subject to the hard fare, which
you think is necessary as a proper punishment without its exercising any dele-
terious effect upon their system ?

Yes.

1292. Lm-d Steward.'] Do you think that the improvement wViich you state
has recently taken place in the diet of military prisons, has at all lessened the
deterrent effect of imprisonment ?

I think it would have a tendency that way, but it has not been sufficiently
tried to allow of any deduction being made from it.

1 293. Chairman.] With regard to the difficulty of proving the identity of
a prisoner, have you ever turned your mind to any remedy for that ; and are you
aware of any means by which it would be comparatively easy to prove a pre-
vious conviction against a prisoner ?

I think that a careful record of all the evidence at the trial of prisoners, and
an interchange of communication between the superintendents of police of the
different counties and boroughs, would certainly tend to have that effect.

1 294. The difficulty does not meet you in military prisons excepting in
respect to the one single offence of desertion, I believe ?

That i> the only case in which the difficulty exists.

129,5. In that case the remedy employed is that of placing a particular mark
upon the offender, is it not ?
Yes.

129(). And that mark is ineffaceable, is it not ?
I believe so, excepting after a painful operation.

1 297. Are you aware whether that practically answers the end in view r
I should think it does to a great extent.

1298. Duke of M(irlhoroug/i.] Where is that mark put?
It is put under the left breast.

1299. Chairman.'] Is that from your experience open to the objection which
is sometimes raised against it, that it is a degrading punishment ?

As far as the soldier goes, I think that if he deserts, it is well to mark him

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE.

127

in order that he may not enter the service again ; but that question has been Major-General

put before me in reference to a discharged convict, and to that I should cer- -Sir Joshua JM,

tainly have a great objection, because if a man is strugghng to earn an honest k. c.b.

livehhood or to go back into industrial courses, it would stamp him for the rest 12th March 1863.

of his life and prevent him from earning an honest livelihood.

1 300. ^^ ould it stamp him if the mark was affixed upon a part of the body
which never would be seen under ordinary circumstances ?

It could always be referred to.

1301. Are you aware of the evidence which the late Captain Maconochie
gave upon that subject .-

No, I am not.

1302. You are probably awai'e of the opinions which he entertaiiied with
regard to the importance of giving every man an opportunity on his discharge
from prison of recovering himself, and obtaining a fresh start in life ?

I think it is of the greatest possible importance : and I will take the liberty of
mentioning, as the question has been opened, that I think assistance to prisoners
on their discharge is a necessary complement to any good system of prison
discipline.

1303. Therefore you would be prepared to accept the oi)inion of Captain
Maconochie without any suspicion, coming as it does from such a person ?

Yes ; I think it is a matter of common sense.

1304. Are you aware that he proposed in his evidence, given before the
Committee of the House of Commons in 1850, to affix a certain mark between
the toes of the offender ?

No, I do not remember that ; and I should object to anything of that sort.

130-,. \)\x\e oi Richmond.'] Soldiers who desert are marked only with the
letter D, ai'e they not ?
I believe that is the case.

1306. Are they not also marked for bad conduct ?
Yes, for certain offences they do put B. C upon them.

1307. Chairman.] Does not the infliction of corporal punishment practically
mark any man ?

I should think it does, if it were severely inflicted.

1308. Must it not do so as administered in the Army and Navy ?
I should think so.

1309. Therefore, practically, you do affix a mark in that case r
Yes.

1310. Do you object to corporal punishment on that ground ?

No ; I do not think you can dispense with corporal punishment altogether ;
you must take the evil and the good together.

1311. Will you be good enough to draw a distinction between the two marks ;
one such as Captain Maconochie suggested, and the other such as is daily in
force in the Army and Navy ?

Corporal punishment would be quite the exception among prisoners, and as
I understand your Lordship's question, it would be a general rule to mark eveiy-
body. I think a general rule for marking deserters is very well, but not with all
discharged prisoners.

131-2. Earl of llnmney.'] With regard to corporal punishment you are limited
now to two dozen lashes, are you not ?
Yes.

1313. That would not mark a man seriously, vrould it?

No, I think not. I have not, however, much experience on the subject.

1314. Earl Cathcart.'] In one instance a man was taken in the North Riding
of Yorkshire, for passing bad five-pound notes, and he was identified because
he wore a belt round his waist marked D, which meant Dartmoor Prison : do not
you tliink that that example would go to prove that some system of marking
would be advantageous ?

1 think that the evil would be greater than the good.

(37.4) Q 4 • 1315. Lord

128

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Major- General
Sir Joshua Jebb,

K. c. B.

lith March 1863.

131,5. Lord M'ode]iouse.~\ ^^"ould not the objection to marking apply with
much greater force to a prisoner who had been sentenced to short terms of
imprisonment, than it would even to convicts r

Yes, of course ; because, numeiically, they are so much greater.

1316. And also it would be a great hardship, would it not, in impeding the
ease of his return to honest employment ?

Yes ; it would be only in tlie case of ii-reclaimably desperate characters that
I could recommend it.

1317. Clunrmanr\ Would you be prepared to relax your ol)jection in the case
of men who had been perhaps committed and re-committed to prison for very
violent assaults or other outrages ?

Y^es; I have just stated that, in certain exceptional cases, the objection would
be done away with, because it is assumed that a man never would attempt to
earn an honest livelihood, and that he is warring against society, and the pro-
tection of society would be certainly increased by marking him.

131 8. Therefore, in the case of incurable offenders, you would see no objec-
tion to affixing some such mark as has been described ?

No.

1319. Marquess of Snlishurj/I Would it in your opinion be desirable, for the
sake of identifying any criminal when he comes a second time into the hands of
justice, that a photograph should be taken of him when he comes in ?

In some cases it might lead to detection on the second offence, and it is
practised in some places, but I do not attach much importance to it.

1320. Duke of 3farlborou(/h.'\ With regard to the characters of prisoners,
do you find in the convict prisons that in the case of prisoners who come
to you after having been convicted a great many times for small offences, and
having suffered their punishments in county gaols, there is a marked difference
in their characters as compared to those who may come to you for one grave
offence ?

Yes, a very marked difference indeed. Those who are habituated to prisons
are known directly ; they generally conform to the discipline, and are not bad
prisoners as such, but still there is no reliance to be placed upon them ; they
are jjlaying a part.

1321. Any system which would apply to county gaols, and which would have
the effect oF diminishing the frequency of prisoners being brought to gaol for
short terms, would have a very important effect, would it not, upon the convict
prisons themselves ?

1 think there is no doubt about it ; it is from the county prisons that the
convict prisons are fed, which circumstance has always led me to attach great
•jmportance to the vigorous administi-ation of discipline in county |)risons.

1322. Chairman.'] To resume very briefly what you have stated to-day in evi-
dence, you have told the Committee that you are in favour of a greater uniformity
of system as regards both the construction and the discipline of tlie different
count}- and borough gaols of this country ?

Y es.

1323. And with that view, you would propose to entrust somewhat larger
powers than at present exist to the Home Secretary, to lay down rules which
should not be optional, but which should be obligatory upon the county and
borough magistrates ?

Yes, I think that would be an improvement.

1324. And you conceive that those rules could be laid down sufficiently to
insure the object in view without trenching \\\Mn\ the local jurisdiction of the
justices, which ought not to 1k' interfered with :

I should think so, and it would be for the public advantage.

1 325. Do you anticipate any difficulty in so framing your rules as to avoid
that ?

1 should think not ; but the aid given by the magistracy and visiting justices
is so great that certain discretionary powers should be lodged with them.

1326. And

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE.. 129

1 326. And )'ou th'nk that such powers must bo lodged with them? Major-Geneml

Ype Sir Joshua Jebo,

K.C.B.

1327, Under any system of prison disciphne ?

I think so ; but 1 think that moderate powers entrusted to the Secretary of 12th March 1863.
State, and wisely administered, as no doubt they would be, would be sure to
command the concurrence of the country generally, for it would be for the
public advantage.

1528. It is further your opinion, is it not, that hard labour should be made
compulsory in ali short sentences, meaning, by hard labour, not industrial
occiipati(jn or employment, liUt labour either at the treadwheel or at the crank,
or the shot drill, or stone-breaking, or some such work ?

That I think seems to be contemplated under the Act of 4 Geo. 4.

1329. And it is your opinion, is it not, that it would be desirable to adopt
that practice ?

That is quite my opinion.

1330. "With regard to the hard labour or the cellular cranks, you believe that
if they could be worked in the open air or in the fresh air, and if they could be
used as a preliminary stage to long-sentence prisoners, or as a penal stage
or disciplinary stage to the short-sentence prisoners, and moreover if the
amount of pressure could be adjusted to a very moderate maximum indeed, the
objection against those cranks would disappear ?

I think so.

1331. And you would entertain no objection to their use, under the circum-
stances I have detailed ?

No. And probably their discontinuance in some prisons may have arisen
from the defects in the construction of the machines, and from its being found
that the cells were too close.

1332. And lastly, you would be in favour, where it seemed desirable, to
employ shot drill, either as a preliminary stage, or as a penal stage, to the
prisoners in county and borough gaols.

Yes ; it is a convenient and econoiuical means of enforcing hard labour.

1333. And you anticipate no difficulty in the use of that shot drill, inasmuch
as it has been applied to naval prisoners in naval prisons.

I do not anticipate any material difficulty. They would require some more
instruction before they got into the way of exercising themselves with the shot,
and perhaps it would require more precautions.

1334. Nor do you believe that there would be any risk of personal injurv
accruing to the prisoners, if the shot were raised upon steps or stands, instead
of obliging them to stoop down whenever they raised a shot ?

I think not; some precautionary measures being taken, and the medical
officer certifying that the man was fit to undergo that description of di'il!.

1335. In order very succinctly to get your view before the Committee, would
you be good enough to state whether there are any other points of essential
importance which you conceive ought to be considered by them ?

The main point of all is, in my judgment, separation, as the basis of dis-
cipline.

1336. Y)Vi\ie o{ Marlborough.'] If I understood you rightly, one of the points
which you advocate is, that the law with regard to the separation of prisoners
should be made compulsorv in all cases ?

Yes.

i3.)7- In answer to one of the noble Lords, who asked you whether there
was not a considerable objection felt, in consequence of the diversity of sen-
tences in different parts of the country for the same offences, you stated that
you found in convict prisons that in some instances the same offence was visited
with seven years' penal servitude, and in other instances with three years'
penal servitude, \vill you state to the Committee what injurious effects you
have found flow from that difference ?

During the period of separate confinement, the men having no communica-
(37. 4. ) R tiou

130 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Major-General tion with eacli Other, the effect is imperceptible ; but the moment tliey get into

Sir Joshua Jebb, association on the pubHc works, the men naturally compare notes; and a man

^•^•°' who has received a sentence of three years for a particular offence, compares

12th March 1863 notes with a man who, for the same offence, may have received a sentence of

seven years ; and the man who has received the longer sentence necessarily

feels himself aggrieved, and that he has been treated with injustice, and he
perhaps becomes a reckless and dangerous man during the remainder of his
continement, and it may be, throughout the whole period of his life, in conse-
quence of his feeling that he has been treated unjustly.

1338.-00 not the various lengths of the sentences very often depend upon
the previous character of the convict ?

In some measure they may ; but the Act lays down that a certain portion of
time shall be added to the sentence which would be proper to pass for the
purpose of being remitted ; that is an anomaly which is contained in the second
or third clause of the Act of 1857 ; the term is added in some cases and not in
others.

1339. That is an objection which would be felt in convict prisons, I presume,
more than in county gaols ?

Cert I inly ; but although it would be impossible to limit the discretion of a judge,
it would be desirable to have it within narrow limits to avoid that difficulty.

1340. IVfarquess of Salisbury.] Has it ever occurred to you that it might be
possible in sentences for long continement after a certain time to remove the
prisoners from the county gaols to establishments conducted by the Govern-
ment, and thereby, of course, ensure unif irraity in their treatment ?

In very long sentences it might be possible ; it would be a sort of intermediate
system of discipline between the present convict system and the coimty prisons.
At present we carry out two separate periods : one in separate confinement
system in two prisons which we have engaged for the purpose,^ Wakefield and
Leicester, and another in the convict prisons ; but if an alteration were to
take place in the Act of 185/, by which the sentences of three and four years
confinement were taken away, it doubtless would cause an increase in the
number nf sentences passed for 12 and 18 months, or even two years in the
county prisons, and it would require careful consideration as to the discipline
which should be administered. TJje discipline that I have ventured to suggest
to the Committee of a gradation of punishments would come very fairly into
plav then. There would be a certain proportion of stringent hard labour
discipline going on in the earlier pei'iod, with some amelioration during the
latter period.

1.341. Could not that be carried on with much more uniformity under the
inspection of Government officers than it could in the separate gaols ?

I have no doubt of it; sentences above 12 months might be removed to
a district prison. There is an example of that in the case of Parkhurst ;
Parkhurst is for juveniles under sentence of penal servitude ; but the Secretary
of Slate has the power, on the application of magistrates, to place any boys
there whose sentences extend from 12 months to two years.

1342. On the whole, you think that under proper regulations, and the details
being well considered, such a plan would be rather desirabh; to be adopted ?

I think it might be desirable ; and il' it were carried out to any extent, it
would almost become necessary, because there is no question that if the number
of sentences to twelve montlis and upward- increased very much, more accom-
modation would be required in the county prisons ; and the best way of relieving
those prisons would be to draft out from them after twelve months confinement,
a certain proportion of the longer sentences.

1343. If that were beneficial in point of expense, would it not be beneficial
in point of deterring prisoners from offences which require those long confine-
ments ?

It would lead to iniiformitv ; it would be very much what the present convict
system now is, but under discipline more applicable to shorter terms.

13.^)4. Duke of j\farlhoroii(ji/i.'] Is it your opinion, that if the sentences in
county prisons were limited to sentences of sliort duration, say under twelve

months,

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. l31

montlis, it would ensure a more deterrent and a more uniform system of punish- Major-Genernl

mcnt in the county prisons being carried out ? Sir Joshua Jebb,

I think it -n-ould ; but with regard to the longer sentences, I merely suggest ^_^-

that with a view to prevent the counties having to increase their accommodation, ^^th March 1863.

any central pi'ison for the reception of all above twelve months, might be a very

convenient way of meeting it; I suggested it more with a view to convenience
and as being conducive to uniformity, than as making it more deterrent.

1345. Duke of RiclnnoniL] Supposing the plan now suggested is carried out,
if prisoners at the expiration of their sentence of twelve months, were kept
in the manner suggested, it would practically take them entirely out of the
jurisdiction of the magistrates, would it not ?

It might or might not, if a central prison were made subject to the jurisdic-
tion of the magistrate?, that Avould be one way of doing it ; but perhaps, as has
been suggested by one of your Lordships, the best way would be to have a
Government prison for the purpose, with a separate establishment.

134(5. When once they got into those prisons, they would be wholly out of
the jurisdiction of the magistrates, would they not r
Yes, if such a plan were carried out.

1347. Chairman.'] Is there any paper which you wish to put in, and which
you think might be useful to the Committee ?

Yes ; I have here a memorandum on the principal questions that appear to
require consideration with reference to the resolutions of the Select Com-
mittees of the House of Lords and of the House of Commons, on the subject
of convicts and imprisonment, and I could put in that part which refers to
imprisonment. It was written in 1856.

1348. Does your opinion remain the same as it was at the time when you
■wrote that paper ?

Yes. quite so. I will just state what my conclusion was : " In considering the
present system of secondary punishment, increased stringency would appear
necessary in the discipline of county and borough prisons, combined with
greater encouragement to good conduct, and above all, assistance to prisoners on
discharge ;" that is as far as regards the imprisonment ; there are other questions
connected with transportation to which I need not refer.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

JOHN GEORGE PERRY, Esquire, is again called in, and further examined J. G. Perry, Esq.

as follows:

1349. Chairman.'] Without going back to any of the subjects included
in your examination the other day, I will just ask you one or two questions first
of all with regard to diet ; is it not the fact, that very great differences exist in
the different prisons in your district, with regard to diet ?

That is the case.

1 350. Some are below the Government scale, and some above the Government
scale ?

A few are above the Government scale, chiefly as to the allowance to short
sentenced prisoners.

1351. There is no uniformity of principle existing in the different gaols under
this head ?

in the greater number of the more important prisons the Government dietary
has been accepted with very little alteration, but there have been some modifi-
cations made even in them ; in the smaller gaols it has been variously modified,
so that it would be hardly too much to say that the modifications are endless in
the different small prisons.

(37.4.) R 2 1352. Will

132 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. CPernj, Esij. 1,3,52. Will you be good enough to state what is the object which you believe

, ,;; : „„ is kejjt in view, and which you yourself would keep in view, with reajard to the
12th March 186,3. 1 lA j: i-i • • -^ / n .i • • ,1 1 • i

health or thi* prisoners ; is it to send the ]irisoner out in the highest possible

condition, or is it to send him out in the same state of health in which he was

received into the prison r

The latter would certainly not be the object which I should have in view,

because many persons come into prison in a most exhausted, diseased, and

debilitated state, and therefore I should certainly not aim at sending them out

in precisely the state in which they were admitted ; I should send them out, if

I had my wav, in such a state of health and strength as would enable them

to get their living, and in that way make it less likely that they would be

again committed to prison for offences which might be the consequence of

their inability to work.

13.5.)- Would you not endeavour to improve the health of prisoners to the
utmost point ?

If prisoners were admitted in full health, I should endeavour to maintain it ;
and if tbey were admitted out of health, I should endeavour to improve their
health.

1354. So as to raise it to the highest point which was possible ?

To that degree of health and vigour which would fit them for labour.

iS.W- ^^ ill yoii state, with regard to extra diets, whether you are in favour of
the principle that the surgeon should have a discretionary power of issuing
extra diets r

It is absolutely necessary that he should, unless so liigh a dietary were given
as would be far more than sufficient for the persons requiring the smallest
amount of food.

1356. Is it your opinion that a record should be kept in writing on every
occasion that an extra diet is issued, specifying the particular case, and the
reasons why that extra diet is allowed ?

It is so at present, and I think it is a very proper rule.

13,57. Are you aware whether that record acts at all as a check upon the
surgeon ?

I am not aware that such a check is necessary ; for I do not think that sur-
geons generally have any disposition to give extra diet where it is not required.

1358. Lord JVodeliouse.l Is it frequently the case where the Government
scale of dietary is adopted that the surgeons are obliged to give extra diet
except in case of illness ?

Where the Government scale is adopted without alteration, the number of
extra diets is very small indeed.

13,59. Duke of Richmond] In what mode is it that a different scale as to diet
is adopted, from that certified by the Secretary of State ?

It is not so. When I speak of the Crovernment dietary, I mean that recom-
mended by the Secretary of State ; but until it is adopted for a particular prison
it has not the force of law, and the magistrates are not obliged to give it. Like
the rest of the rules that were circulated by the (government, they may or may
not be adopted by the magistrates in quarter sessions. If they are adoptcid, they
are siiit up to the Secretary of State to receive his sanction and confirmation
for that particular prison ; but unk^ss the dietary, as one of the rules, lias been
certified for tlie particular prison, the magistrates are not required to use it. It
was in that sense that 1 spoke.

1360. Cluiirrnaii.'] Will you be good enough to state to the Committee what
the principle is upon which the surgeon acts when he issues an extra diet to a
prisoner ; that is to say, whether it is necessary that a prisoner should be con-
sidered an invalid previous to the issue of the extra diet, or whether that extra
diet is meri'ly given to him in order to supplement what, in the opinion of the
surgeon, is a supposed deficiency of food ?

I citnceive that the latter was the; intention of tlu^ law, but it is differently
inter|)retcd in different prisons. In some prisons the surgeon feels it his duty
to interfere before a man actually comi)lains of illness, and I think that is the

right

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 133

right view to take of it. Tlie surgeon may see that a man is falUng into a feeble /. (j, Perry, Esq.

state of health, although he may have no special illness which would lead him

to make a complaint. But in other prisons the surgeon feels that he is hardly i^th March 1863.

warranted in giving extra diet until a man is actually ill, and fit almost to be

sent to the infirmary.

1361. Therefore, in the one case the extra diet is issued when the man is
labouring under positive disease, whereas in the other case it is issued before he
passes on to the sick list I

Exactly so : to prevent his health from breaking down.

1362. Will you be good enough to explain a statement which I find in your
evidence taken before the Committee in 1850, in whicli you were asked by Sir
George Grey, " Is there not a discretion in the medical officer to incre;ise the
diet where tiie health of the prisoner is suffering from a low diet ; " and your
answer is stated to be this : " Yes, but that power can only be used where a
prisoner is suffering from disease. It is held by the magistrates that the medical
officer has no right to increase the diet of a prisoner unless he is positivtdy ill,
but a man may be so much reduced in strength by a low diet as to have the
seeds of disease laid in his system," and so on. Would that imply that in 1852
a diffei'ent practice prevailed from that which, according to your last answer,
exists now in your district r

It would imply this, that in 1850 the magistrates held that view very much
more generally than they do now. I am speaking of course of the practice in
my own district ; I have repeatedly had opportunities of conversing with magis-
trates on rny visits, and have explained to them that the surgeon is bound not
only to treat disease but to prevent it ; and therefore that when persons are
failing in health it is his duty to interfere if he thinks an extra diet necessary to
save them from disease or weakness. I believe that that opinion has very much
extended since the time that I gave that evidence. When I gave that evidence
it certainly was the custom generally to regard a surgeon as bound to wait for
symptoms of positive disease ; that was the more common view taken by the
magistrates, but now I do not think that that is the more coamion view ; I think
that a surgeon feels himself more unshackled than he did then.

1363. You would naturally attribute considerable influence to the admonitions
which you have delivered to the different surgeons in different prisons within
your district on this point ?

I have no doubt that they have had some effect.

] 364. And that has contributed to alter the practice in this respect ?
I think so.

1365. Where the extra diets were previously issued in the case of disease only
they are now simply issued as anticipatory of disease ?

Yes ; and of course also in case of disease.

1 366. Lord Wockliou,ser\ Do you think that if a sufficient diet is prescribed,
there is any necessity for ^the surgeon exercismg such discretion as you have
alluded to in your last answer?

I think there will always be that necessity, unless a great excess of food is
given to the prisoners ; because men differ so much, not only in their appetites
for food, but also in the necessity that they are under for support, and in their
normal condition altogether, so that if a sufficient dietary were to be prescribed
for the whole prison to meet the requirements of those who want the most food,
it would be very far in excess of that required for the others ; and therefore a
very great expenditure would be incurred, which is now avoided, and also the
small feeding men would be over fed.

1367. Did I understand you rightly, that practically it is not found necessary
where a dietary which is sufficient is adopted, to order extra diet except on com-
paratively rare occasions ?

Yes ; i have said that is not done very often ; the number of exceptions to the
normal rule is so small that it is not necessary for the surgeon to interfere very
often.

1368. Do you not think that it would be very objectionable that the diet
should be such that exceptions should be frequent r

(37.4.") R 3 Certainly.

134 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

/. G. Perry, Esq. Certainly. I may add, that there is a prison in this very town which is a
strong iUustration of that opinion ; I mean the prison of the city of London at

i2tli March 1863. Holloway ; when it was first opened, the city magistrates thought that the
dietary recommended hy the Secretary of State was too high, and they requested
that, as an experiment, they might be allowed to lower it ; that was tried lor
some time, and the great number of extra diets that were required made me
recommend that the dietary should be raised to the originally proposed standard,
by adding four ounces of bread to the diet of prisoners under long sentences ;
that was done, and since that time the number of exira diets has been reduced
almost to nothing.

1 369. E.arl Romney.^ With regard to the case of a man with a bad constitu-
tion, broken down by dissipated habits, and who has received a sentence of
six months for misconduct, coming into prison, is it the great business of
the autliorities to restore his constitution ; is the utmost care to be taken,
lest he should be injured by the treatment in prison, and the greatest pains
taken to restore his constitution, and to reform him ■:

I certainly would not send him out in a weak and feeble state, simply
because he had come in in that condition.

1370. It would be the business, in many cases, of the gaol authorities to
restore his constitution as far as lay in their power, would it ?

That would be incidental to his proper treatment.

1371. And therefore hard labour in many of those cases could not be
carried out r

iS'ot until a man's strength was somewhat restored.

1372. A great number of town prisoners are of very dilapidated constitutions,
ai'e they not.

Yes, very much so ; and vagrants also are very often very feeble.

1373. Earl Calhcurt.\ I find that in one prison in the Midland district they
give a great deal of ale to many of the prisoners. Do you conceive of cases
in which it may be necessary to give ale to large numbers of prisoners?

If beer wei-e required, they would naturally give ale in the country, rather
than porter, v\hich is given in London.

1374. Chairmcai .'] With regard to school instruction, in most pi-isons on the
separate system, provision is made, is it not, for school instruction ?

Yes.

137,5. Is that school instruction generally carried out hy the chaplain, or by
a school instructor r

In the large prisons there is almost always a schoolmaster, and there are
several schoolmasters in some. In the smaller prisons there is seldom a
separate schoolmaster, but one of the warders instructs the prisoners, or the
chaplain or the governor does it ; but even in some large prisons they have no
schoolmaster ; tlae chaplain does the duty.

137(5. Is the system of instruction in its general outlines tolerably uniform?

Not precisely .-o ; in some prisons they confine the instruction to boys and to
young- persons, in others they extend it as far as possible to all. The amount
of instruction given depends very nnich upon the number of prisoners, because,
as only a certain time in the day is given up to in-truetidu, the larger the
number of prisoners the smaller will be the weekly amount of attention that
each will receive from the schoolmaster.

1377- W'henever instruction is given, is it given in classes, or is it ever con-
fined to ceUuiar means ofteatihing ?

It is frequently confined to instruction in the cells ; it is sometimes given in
classes, sometimes in the(;hapeis, and sometimes in the school-rooms, which are
occasionally subdivided so as to prevent tlie prisoners from seeing each other ;
but in other cases they arc not.

1375. Wlicn it is administered in classes, what is the average number consti-
tuting a class?

It would be impossible to state that.

^37<^ Could )-ou state what is the maximum ?

I do not think I coulil with exactness. When the instruction is given in the

chapel

* SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 135

chapel there is a very considerable number of prisoners at a time, perhaps as J. G. Perry, Esq.

many r.s 24 or 30 at a time, but where it is given in smaller rooms, of course

the prisoners are in smaller numbers, and in the cells they are single. ^*^'' March 1863.

1380. Is it not the case that very often a large number of prisoners, to the
extent of 24 or 30 as you have said, are all colli cted in a room for the purpose of
class instruction, with the chaplain or the schoolmaster to instruct them, and one
warder at the very outside to maintain order ?

I think that where so large u number were collected together they would have
more warders than one.

1381. Have you never known cases where that has been done ?
I have not seen any instances of it.

1382. Do you believe that the number of warders ever exceeds two in such
cases ?

I should think that they would seldom have more than two. Where the pri-
soners are instructed in the chapel, the seats of the warders are so placed as to
enable two persons to command a view of that small number of prisoners.

1383. Are you of opinion that one schoolmaster, who is employed in giving
instruction, and two warders who stand by, are able effectually to control the
prisoners, and to jirevent all communication passing between 20 or 30 pri-
soners ?

That would depend very much upon the construction of the room where they
are instructed.

1384. I am speaking now of a room in which they are upon benches wi'.hout
partitions ?

They seldom have such rooms in prisons upon the separate system ; it is
more common to instruct the prisoners in the chapels where they sit upon the
same seats that they occupy during the service.

1385. And where there are partitions ?

There may or may not be partitions ; partitions are very generally aban-
doned in the chapels.

1386. Are you in favour of the separation of prisoner from prisoner, by
means of partitions in the school-rooms ?

There may be no objection to it there, I think ; but in the chapels I think
that there is very great objection to it.

1387. Would you be good enough to state whether in the school-rooms you
see any objection to the separation of prisoner from prisoner by partition?

No, I do not.

538S. Do not you conceive that it would be rather an advantage than
otherwise ?

I think it would in the school-rooms.

1389. It would enable them to fix their attention more completely upon the
work which is in progress, would it not ?

Yes.

1 390. Would it not also prevent communication from passing between
prisoner and prisoner ?

It would.

1301. Will you be good enough to state to the Committee, whether those
same advantages would not exist in the case of partitions in chapels as well as
in schdol-rooms ?

I think not. Originally, prison chapels were constructed in that manner ;
and the reason why that construction has been abandoned, and in many
instances actually taken away after it was put up, was, that the prisoners not
being able to see each other, were continually adopting other means of com-
munication, either by altering words in the service as sometimes happened, or
by scratching on the sides of the pews. Another objection was, that the
prisoners were apt to go to sleep during the service from the closeness of the
confinement in which they were ; and they had great facilities for doing so, by

(37. 4.) R 4 sinking

136 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

./. G. Perry, Esq. Sinking down upon their seats, so that they could not be seen by the chaplain.

But the great objection was the constant attempts that were made by the

i2t!i March 1803. pj.jgoners to communicate or to recognise the voices of other prisoners.

1302. You stated just now that you conceived tliat there was an advantage
in having partitions in the school-room, inasmucli as it obliged the prisoner to
concentrate his attention more closel)' upon the schoolmaster, and conscjuenth^
gave the schoolmaster a greater control over the prisoner for the time being ;
and also that it assisted in preventing communication passing between prisoner
and prisoner ; why would not the same advantages exist in the case of partitions
in chajjels r

Because in the school-rooms the men are constantly and positively employed
themselves ; whereas in the chapels, they are merely listeners to a service per-
formed by others ; and therefore they have much time on their hands in the
chapel to misapply in the way that 1 have mentioned, whereas they have no
inducement to do the same thing in the scliool-room, nor would it be possible
to do so without being seen by the schoolmaster.

1393. In wiiat manner are the prisoners constantly employed in the school-
room, except in the case of writing and arithmetic r

They are employed in reading, writing, cyphering, and so on.

^ 394. One person only can read at a time, and whilst he is reading all the
others must be silent ?

But they are all much more under the eye of the schoolmaster than they are
in the chapels, because where the seats are partitioned in the schools the par-
titions rise from the ground, and are completely open in front, and the prisoner
has a table before him, so that he can be perfectly seen by the schoolmaster, and
it can be seen whether he is doing his work or is neglecting it ; but in the
chapels where they are completely inclosed, except as to part of their heads,
within the separate pews, it is very easy for them to sink down out of sight, and
while they are supposed to be listening to the service, to scratch upon the panels
messages to other prisoners ; I do not mean to say that that is of any import-
ance as a breach of discipline, but it takes off the attention of the prisoners
altogether from the service, and causes them to be continually thinking of the
other prisoners, and listening for them.

1395. But where is the mechanical difficulty in applying- the same form of
construction to a partition in the chapel, which you say is perfectly effective in
the case of the school-room ?

One difficulty would be the enormous size that the chapels would require to
be made. If every prisoner were placed in a partitioned sitting, with his whole
person visible, the chapel would not contain more than half the number, or not
so many as half the number it now contains, where the seats are arranged one
behind the other, and where it is only the head of a prisoner that appears
over the edge of the pew.

139G. Then, do your objections really resolve themselves merely into
mechanical ones ?

No, they do not ; the other objection will still remain, that the prisoners being
only passive dm'ingthe chapel service instead of being actively employed in the
school-room, woidd be more likely to be making use of their opportunities for
listening for other prisoners and communicating with them, than they would be
in the school, where such attempts are never made; they are much n;ore
interested thei-e, hecause they are themselves engaged in the operations that are
going on in the scliool-room.

1397. But will it not induce them equally to talk, whether there are separa-
tions, or whether there are not separations r

No; because where there are no separations they are so much more completely
under the observation of the officers, that they have not the same means of
communicating ; and also a still stronger reason is, that they can see each other,
and feci that they are in the society of each other, and they lose that restless
disposition which makes them continually listen for the voices of the other
prisoners.

13()8. Are you of opinion that in a prison chapel where there are no separa-
tions between prisoner and prisoner, communications fail to pass ?

I believe

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 13/

I believe they do in all those that are well regulated and managed ; some J- G- ^erri/, Esq.
slight communication may pass, but no communication of the least importance , r. , gg
can be made. ^^__«__

1399. Do you believe that during those parts of the ser\ice, vrhen the con-
gregation are speaking at the same time, no communications ever pass between
prisoner and prisoner?

I i\n not think that they do on the open benches, for the reasons that I have
mentioned.

1400. Would you be surprised if you were told that prisoners have repeatedly
applied to the governors of gaols to remove them to other places in the chapel
in order to avoid being offended by the exceedingly filthy conversation of their
companions ?

I have never heard of such instances, but I can conceive it to be possible.
But when I say that no communications of any importance can be made, I
mean that none of those communications which are said to take place in
prisons, and which lead to subsequent crime, could possibly take place between
them. I can quite conceive it to be possible, as your Lordship states, that the
prisoners may make use of obscene words to each other, which, in the case of
a well-conducted prisoner, would be very offensive to him, and might lead him
to ask to be removed to other parts of the chapel.

1401. You are aware that in some of the prison chapels singing is made
part of the service ?

It is.

• 1402. Are you not aware that by means of singing it is perfectly easy to hold
a very long conversation on any possible subject ?

Yes, it is ; and that is what I more particularly alluded to when I said that
communication is made by altering the words in the service ; but it is much
less likely to take place where the prisoners sit upon open benches, because the
warders have a better opportunity of observing them than they have in the
enclosed seats.

1403. Was it not perfectly possible, when there were partitions, for one or
two, or, if necessary, three warders to be placed upon a bridge above, so that
they could look down and see the motion of every single prisoner within the
partitions ?

Tliere are some prisons which have bridges above, but I do not believe
that the inspection from them is better than in those in which the warders are
placed in the usual manner.

1404. Is not the inspection, at all events, perfectly possible r

I am speaking now comparatively ; and I think that a better inspection may
be maintained where the warders are on a level with the prisoners, than where
they are placed on a bridge above them.

1405. Can you state what is the maximum time devoted to school instruction
to each individual prisoner, in the gaols witii which you are familiar ?

I think that it is very seldom more than an hour in the day for each person,
supposing the prisoners to be separately instructed ; but I would not say that
that was the maximum time.

1406. But where the prisoner is instructed in a class, how long would it be .'
Then, of course the time would be longer, supposing the schoolmaster to be

in the prison for a certain number of hours.

1407. Do you believe that a prisoner is ordinarily able to bear more than
three, or at the very outside four, hours' instruction ?

No, I do not think that they ever have so much given to them. I think
that in the earlier days of the Pentonville Prison, there may have been as
much ; but 1 do not think that is at all to be /ound in county gaols.

1408. Earl of Romnei/.] Has a prisoner sentenced to hard labour a right to
demand to be taken from that hard labour, in order to be instructed?

No, certainly not.

1409. It is a favour, is it not ?

It is generally accorded as a favour,

(37-4.) S 1410. Therefore,

I3th March 1863.

138 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

/. G.Perry, Esq. 1410. Therefore, when at school, it would be his interest to behave himself
well ?

Yes, cei'tainly.

141 1. Would not that be the distinction between the chapel and the school,
that at the school he has an interest to behave well in order to get the privilege
of being taken off the treadwheel, supposing that is the hard labour used in the
]n'ison, whereas chapel is part of the discipline which he is compelled to
undergo ?

That would be an additional reason, certainly.

1412. Therefore he would be more likely to behave better at school than at
chapel ?

Yes, practically that is so, certainly.

1413. Lo7d Steward.'] Is the practice, with regard to untried prisoners, uni-
form in the gaols in your district ?

No, it is not.

1414. Is there as much disparity with regard to them as there is with regard
to prisoners under sentence ?

Quite as much, I think. In some prisons they are offered employment, but
in others they are not.

1415. Do not you think it desirable that there should be some one uniform
practice established with respect to this matter ?

Yes ; decidedly so.

1416. Are there any particular improvements that you would suggest with
regard to the treatment of those untried prisoners ?

I think that in all cases some kind of industrial employment should be found
for them ; they very often suffer very much indeed from the want of it.

1417. It should be offered, but not enforced ?
Yes, it should be offered, but not enforced ; the law as it at present exists

requires that it should be so ; but it is not done in one prison in ten with any
regularity.

1418. Are you now speaking of county gaols or borough gaols?
Of both. Prisoners have frequently complained to me that they have not had

the option of employment.

1419. Earl of Romney.'] There are very few prisons, are there not, where
labour is offered to untried prisoners ?

It is very seldom indeed that it is offered with any regularity.

1420. It is very difficult to carry it out, is it not ?
No ; I have known them eagerly embrace the opportunity.

1421. But it is difficult, is it not, for the prison authorities to provide employ-
ment ?

In the present state of prisons, there are a great many where the prison
authorities do not provide labour or work for those who are convicted, and
therefore, of course, it would be an additional difficulty to provide it for the ■
untried.

1422. And it is practically difficult, is it not, to fit up the prisons so as to
meet the wants of the various trades when the men come and ask for employ-
ment r

There is no doubt that it is so ; but there are some light employments which
can gemerally be found. It depends a good deal ujion the activity of the autho-
rities, I think, and upon the kinds of trade that are carried on in the neighbour-
hood.

1423. And the sort of people that are mostly confined there?
Yes.

1424. Duke of Marlhornngh.] Do you find that in the prisons in your
district a large number of boys are imprisoned ?

In some prisons there are a great many ; in London, for instance, there are
a great many ; but they are very mucli reduced in number by the operation of

the

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 139

the reformatory schools, — partly by crime being repressed by the schools, J. G. Perry, Esqi

but still more by the immense number of boys ayIio are in the reformatories, ^^^^^ March 1863.

and who would have been in prison over and over again if they had not been

there.

1425. Do the prisons in your district still contain boys in certain cases ?
Yes, they do.

1426. "What is the youngest age of a boy that you have known in prison ?

I have known a boy committed for trial at the sessions at six years old ; but
that, of course, would not be possible now ; that was in the early part of my
time, when one boy between six and seven, and the other of eight, brothers,
were committed for milking a cow on a common, the one sitting on the ground
and the other attempting to milk the cow into his mouth ; but that could not
happen at the present time.

1427. At present what is the age of the youngest boy in any prison with
which you are acquainted ?

I think eight is the lowest age.

1428. Should you say that there are a considerable number of boys in prison
in your district between the ages of eight and fifteen ?

Yes, a very great number.

1429. Are those boys who you think ought to be in reformatories ?

I think they ought ; but I think that a system of classification in the reforma-
tories ought to be introduced, or else, whilst there is much good done by the
reformatories, a good deal of mischief may also arise by mixing up compara-
tively untainted boys from the country with the worst vagabond boys of large
towns, by which association more harm will be done to the comparatively good
boys than good will arise to the others.

1430. So long as they are in prison under the separate system they are to a
certain extent kept separate and free from contamination ?

Yes.

1431. But I understand you to say, that when they enter the reformatory
they are immediately associated with other boys r

Yes, they are ; so that some boys who have been merely committed to the
reformatory for the purpose of taking them away from bad associates, they being
supposed to be very little tainted with crime, will for three or four years be asso-
ciated with some of the worst characters of the neighbouring town.

1432. Do you think that, in addition to the reformatory, a system could be
adopted of a prison for boys without its being necessary to send them to a
reformatory ?

1 think that the system might be very much improved in large prisons, but in
the smaller establishments the boys are continually mixed up with adults.

1433. In a prison conducted on the separate system, tlie boys might be
kept as separate as any other prisoners, might they not ?

Yes, they might ; but of course young boys can scarcely bear the separate
system for any time.

1434. I presume that the system of the reformatory was more for the purpose
of continuing the punishment for a longer duration than could have been the
case if a boy had been kept in prison, and with the view of adopting a system
of reformation during that time r

Yes ; and it was very well designed for that end. But it appears to me that
the value of reformatories would be very much increased if the boys that were
.sent to them were classified as they are in France. In France, when oifences
are proved against boys under 16 years of age, they are sent to the Maison
Centrale, where they remain for some time, until their characters have been
ascertained by the governor and the chaplain ; and according to the observa-
tions made by those officers, they are allotted to the different reformatories ;
so that in some there are boys who are taken away from their parents on
account of the vice of their parents, more than of their own.

(37-4.) s 2 1435. Is

140 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. G. Perry, Esq. 1435- Is there any Suggestion that occurs to you with regard to boys at

th Alarcii 1861 P^*^^^"^ confined in gaols?
^ ' I think that a great deal of pains is generally taken now by the authorities

in the gaols, especially by the chaplains, in the instruction of the boys that are
confined in them. Much more attention is bestowed upon them than upon
adults, and I do not see how it could be very much increased unless a separate
department were altogether allotted to the boys ; the number is now so small
in each gaol, that it is only in some of the very largest that that would be
practicable. In Cold Bath Fields prison, for instance, there is a separate divi-
sion altogether for the boys, and they are under very good management there ;
but boys of every character are associated together.

1436. Then your own observation in the inspection of prisons does not lead
you to ofler any suggestion as to the improvement in the system of management
of boys in gaols ?

I should hke to see them in industrial schools and reformatories ; but I should
like at the same time to see those alterations introduced which I have mentioned ;
and I say this not merely upon theoretical grounds, for I have seen instances
in which boys have been rather corrupted than otherwise, on account of the
indiscriminate association to which they are exposed when they are sent to
reformatories.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next,

at One o'clock.

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 141

Bie Martis, 17° Martii 1863.

LORDS PRESENT:

Lord President.
Marquess of Salisburt.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Malmesbury.
Earl of RoMNEY.

Earl Cathcart.
Earl of DuciE.
Earl of Dudley.

Viscount EVERSLEY.
Lord WODEHOUSE.

THE EARL OF CARNARVON, in the Chair.

Evidence on
Prison Discipline.

MAJOR WILLIAM FULFORD, r. a., is called in, and examined, Major W. Fulford,

as follows :

1437. Chairman.'] I believe you are the Governor of Stafford Gaol ?
Yes, of the Stafford County Prison.

1438. Will you be good enough to inform the Committee what the size of that
prison is ?

The numbers average about 650 prisoners.

1439. Including debtors ?
Yes, including all.

1440. Does that imply 6.50 cells?

No ; it is not all on the separate system at present.

1441. What is the proportion of cells which are certified by the inspector ?
There are 422 certified.

1442. What is the condition of the other cells?

One hundred and fourteen of the others are now about to be pulled do\vn to make
room for 320 separate cells, to be certified.

144'^. You are preparing, in fact, to make the prison separate throughout?
Yes.'

1444. Will you be good enough to tell the Committee what is the system
which is in force in Stafford gaol r

The separate system, as far as possible, and as far as we have the means of
carrying out hard labour for the convicts separately.

1445. What form of hard labour is in use ?

The treadwheel and the cranks are the modes of penal hard labour in use in the
gaol.

1446. I conclude that by the word " penal," you mean hard labour, as contra-
distinguished from trades ?

Yes.

1447. Will you state also what are the trade occupations which are in use in
your prison ?

The prisoners make all the clothing for the use of the prison ; the tailoring, the
ehoemaking, the repairs of the prison, and mat making.

(37.5.) s 3 1448. Are

R. A.

17th March 1863.

^■^2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Major W.Fulford, 144S. Arc tliose trades carried on under the superintendence and directions of
«-A. tnide instructors r

I7t!i March 18G3. ^^^-

M49- What is the maximum time which is allotted to hard labour ?
Six liours and three quarters.

!4,50. Is that uniform for all the prisoners?

It ought to be ; but unfortunately we have not machinery sufficient to carry out
the system at present ; and one of the alterations in the prison now in prospect is
the addition of some wheel labour, sufficient for 200 men.

1451. Therefore, at present, a part of the prisoners in the gaol are without hard
labour ;

Without that species of labour; there are some emjjloyed in breaking stones,
and picking oakum, and so forth.

1452. Is the tread wheel applied to productive labour?

Yes ; one is employed in grinding wheat for the consumption of the prison,
and of tlie two lunatic asylums in tlie neighbourhood, and the other pumps the
Avater by a forcing ])ump over the building.

1453. Are the cranks of winch you spoke applied to productive work ?

They are not ; the cranks are unproductive, with the exception of eight, which
pump water.

1454. Have you ever had recourse to shot drill ?
Never.

1455. Do you enforce oakum picking?
Yes.

1456. Would you class oakum picking amongst the hard labour?

No, I should not ; it is disagreeable ; but I do not think that a good many of'
the prisoners care half so much about it as they do for the treadwheel labour; iu
fact, the latter is the only one that they do care about.

1457- Will you state to the Committee what is the form of the crank which is
in use r

The common hand crank, with a dial, which records the revolutions, and which
admits of the friction being increased or decreased, according to my order.

14.58. Is each cranic a separate machine by itself?

Yes.

14.59. -^J^*! ^^^^7 ^''6 not connected by one common shaft ?

Not a great number of them ; the pump cranks are all on one shaft.

1460. Have you from experience found any objection to the use of those
separate cranks?

Not the least.

1461. Lord S/eivard.] Do you proportion the requirements of the crank to the
special strength of the prisoner r

I did it more so at first ; but I found, after some little experience, that 10,000
revolutions of the crank, which is the number ibr a day's labour, made a very light
weigiit sufflcient to s^ive a man a day's work. Mv orders are that they shall only
do the work u\) to tlie meal, and then stop a little after they have had the meal,
in order that the day may be divided ; aud I have frequently found, when I go
round, that every one has finished his proper number of revolutions, and that the
befon; dinner work, which ought to take till a quarter to one, is done before 11.
But, taking one with another, it is a fair day's work, because the people who are
employed at the crank labour are those who are imprisoned for very short sentences ;
summary convicts, and they do not get much to cat.

1462. Still, is it not much easier to some than to others ?

Yes, no doubt; and you cannot name a punishment that is not.

1463. Earl of Dudley.'] Then you give a margin of two hours?
Yes.

1464. Lord

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 143

1464. Lord Steivard.] Is it not in your power to proportion the resistance so as Major IV. Fulford,
to increase or diminish the difficulty ? r. a.

Yes ; I only mean that as an ilhistration ; I could make it so irksome that the ' — '

prisoner could hardly turn the crank with hoth hands. It is quite a matter of ^7tn March 1863.
arrangement, but I make very little difference in the amount of resistance.

1465. Chairman.'] The regulation of each crank is confined to yourself, and is
not in the power of any warder, is it ?

No, it is confined to myself; I always test the crank ; it was originally thought
that it might be tested by a weight ; that the dropping of the handle would give
so many pounds, which was quite a mistake ; it did not do so. No doubt a weight
of seven pounds would droj) the handle, but it took a good deal more than seven
pounds to pull it up the other side.

1466. Lord Steivard.'] But you think that the prisoners do not dislike the crank
so much as they do the treadwheel ?

No.

1467. Earl of Dudley.'] There is compulsion in the case of the treadwheel,
whereas they can take their time over the crank ?

Yes, they can take their time over the crank, but they all must go on working
sX the treadwheel.

1468. In one word, the treadwheel is the only compulsory hard labour r

That is the only compulsory labour that I know of, or the only compulsory
labour that any prisoner cares about, which is a more important circumstance still.
There is not a day passes that I do not get, certainly a dozen, of different sorts of
applications for the men to be withdrawn from the wheel; either they have a pain
in their back, or they want to be put to a trade, or they think they have been long
enough on the wheel, or some excuse, either to me or the prison surgeon, if they
cannot come to me, to withdraw them from that labour.

1469. Chairman.] The Committee have been informed that in the opinion of
some prisoners the use of the crank and the treadwheel, especially when applied
to unproductive labour, has a tendency to degrade and to irritate ; is that your
opinion ?

I do not believe it one bit.

1470. Have you, in your experience as governor of a prison, had an opportunity
in any way of testing the truth of that opinion ?

There are a great number of prisoners, of course, that I have had to deal with,
and a great many of them have asked to be put to the one anti to the other. I
speak to a great many of them every day, and they have all sorts of excuses to
make to be withdrawn from the crank, but I never heard any prisoner hint
at that, and I do not believe that it ever entered one of their minds.

1471. Have you ever had any communications with any of the prisoners,
either in writing or verbally, on that particular point ?

No, I think not.

1472. You never asked any questions of the prisoners about it ?

No, I never should dream of asking them about it, and putting it into their
minds, because they would apply it instantly.

1473. Viscount Eversley.] Are those cranks put up in the cells of the prisoners,
or are they in separate buildings ?

They are in their own cells, with the exception of about seven or eight, which
are attached to the separate department in the certified part of the prison, and
they are in a shed, and to them are put such prisoners convicted at the assizes
and sessions as are ordered by the surgeon for a time, perhaps, to be taken off the
wheel, or who are cripples with wooden legs, and so forth, of whom I have a
large number sometimes.

1474. In the cases where those cranks are in the prisoners' cells do you find that
the ventilation is very much deteriorated r

That is the reason why we are building ; the part they are in has never been
certified, and the magistrates have now determined to pull down and rebuild the
whole thing upon the same plan as the other parts of the building. No doubt the
■ventilation is not so good as it ought to be ; but I do not know that it has anything

(37. 5.) s 4 to

144 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

■ Major W. Fulford, to do with the crank so mucli, as that the ventilation of the building is bad. Some

R. A. of the cells have not got cranks in them, but I do not see much diiierence ; the

, ~. ; o- ventilation is very bad all over the buildino-.

■ 17th March 1863. •' °

■ 1475- Chairman.^ From your long experience as a governor, do you see any

practical objection to the use of those cranks ?
Not the least.

1476. But are the Committee to gather from your evidence that upon the
whole you consider the treadwheei the better punishment of the two, inasmuch
as it is less optional to the prisoner to evade it f

Yes.

1477. Loi-d Steicard.'] Would not the treadwheei be too severe for prisoners
who are not able-bodied ; and in that case would it not be necessary to have a
crank, or some other instrument to substitute for it ?

It is so occasionally ; some of the prisoners cannot work at it, but that is the
surgeon's business ; there are a few in all prisons who are not equal to treadwheei
labour.

1478. Can you dispense altogether with the crank ?
No.

1479. Earl of Dudley.] You would prefer to have a medium between compul-
sory hard labour and industrial occupation ?

Quite so.

1480. Chairman. ] You have stated that prisoners very often petition for indus-
trial occupation, in order to escape being put upon the wheel ; will you state
whether there are greater facilities in industrial occupations for the prisoners to
shirk their fair share of the work which is naturally imposed upon them ?

In making clothing, I am not a very good judge as to whether a man does a
fair day's work ; for instance, in making a pair of shoes, it must be remembered
that they are not skilled artizans, and that therefore the master tradesman is not
so good a judge as he would be of the work of 60 men in Stafford, where they
are all shoemakers, and very acute at the labour, so that it is difficult in that way
to a'^certain when they have done a proper day's work. But it is admitted by the
master shoemaker and the master tailor that they do not get the amount of work
out of a prisoner that they should in a fair day's work from a man out of doors.

1481. Taking, on the one hand, the six hours' labour on the treadwheei, and,
on the other hand, six hours' labour at industrial occupation, do you think that
the six hours of industrial occupation are a fair equivalent to the six hours at the
treadwheei ?

No, certainly not.

1482. Do you consider industrial occupation in itself to be a labour which is
adapted for the majority of prisoners in a gaol }

No, 1 do not ; and 1 have for many years been telling the justices of Stafford
that I do not think s^o.

1483. On what do you base that opinion?

That the prisoners do not care about it. In the case of the industrial occupa-
tion of a man who is not a master of his trade, we will say, the less he knows of
the business the more he is interested in the occupation, and the more he is
interested in the occupation the less he cares for being shut up in the cell ; con-
sequently time passes quickly and agreeably, and is no weight to him compared
to that which it is to a man who is all day on the wheel.

1484. Do you say that from what you would naturally believe to be the case,
or from your own experience of the jiractical working of the system in prisons?

It is my own experience; but I should have judged it if I had never seen a
prison.

1485. Do you consider that the industrial occupation in itself succeeds in a
pecuniary point of view ?

No.

1486. Earl of Dvdln/.] It does not pay its expenses, does it?

I do not think it docs, "ith the exception of grinding wheat, which pays its
way. We grind corn, and make bread for the prison, and for tlie county pauper

lunatic-

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 145

lunatic asvlum and for the subscription asylum just outside Stafford, and the profit Major W.Fulford^
of the prison upon that is upwards of 500 /. or nearly 600 /. a year. But with "•^•

regard to all the rest of the work that we do, of course if the prison clothing j-fj, March i86''.

Avere made abroad instead of being made inside, it would apparently swell the

prison bills ; but any protitablo work for sale, such as mat making, and occasion-
ally other small matters, that we have for sale, barely covers the outlay on the raw
material when all is done ; because one reason is that the workmen are not
skilled artizans, and it takes some time to teach them, with rare exceptions.

1487. The things that are made in prison are very inferior ?
Yes.

1488. Shoes made in the prison are not so good as shoes made outside the
walls of the prison, and do not command the same sale?

Certainly not.

1489. Do you find that for all that is made in the Staftbrd gaol you get a
ready sale ?

Now we sell nothing but mats and matting and oakum ; we have a ready sale
for them ; there are no mats, I b(-licve, made so good as those which are made in
prisons, not only in our prison, but in others.

1490. The clothes and shoes are only for consumption within the prison ?
Yes, only for consumption within the prison ; and the prisoners also execute

the repairs of the clothing for the officers of the establishment.

1491. Marquess of Salisbury .'] By whom is the bread made in the prisons ?
By the prisoners ; we have a master baker and miller, and he has under him

six men, and they between them superintend the milling and the baking and the
■whole business ; they bake about 60 sacks of flour a week.

149c. What class of prisoners are those men?
They are all convicts.

1493. You do not mean Government convicts ?
No, convicted prisoners.

1494. Lo7-d Steward.] Is that employment a substitute for hard labour?
Yes.

1495. In allotting them to that labour, have you reference to their aptitude
for that jiarticular employment, or to their general character and conduct ?

We generally pick out men who have a long time to serve, and powerful men ;
we must have both of those qualities.

1496. Earl of Dudley.'] Are you at all guided by the fact of whether he knows
anything of the business before ?

No ; we should set any of the men to work at it ; they are not all put on
together; we turn out one at a time ; and a man is always put out of the mill,
or whatever employment we may give him of an industrial character in my prison,
three months before he is discharged, so that he may go out with the influence of
three months of treadwheel knowledge upon him.

M97- Does it never happen that your prison arrangements are thrown out of
working order by the fact that you do not get a man w^ho is capable of being a
master baker ?

No, because the master baker is a paid officer, not a convict ; he is a superior
man.

1498. Is he like the instructors in trades, and so on ?
Yes.

1499. Chairman.'] Are the Committee to understand that you employ the
short sentenced prisoners under any circumstances in industrial occupations "?

As seldom as possible.

ijOo. At what period of the sentence does the industrial occupation com-
mence 1

If a man were sentenced for a year, for instance, I should keep him to Iiard
labour, certainly, for three months.

(37.5.) T i.-^oi. During-

146 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Mujcr W. Fulford, 1,501. During those three montlis wnnld you, under your present system, be

''•^" able to give Iiim six hours laliour a day ?

17th March 1863. No, not quite; the prisoners who are convicted with hard labour, are not all

capable, from some physical cause, of carrying out a full day's work, even if 1 could

manage it, and some cannot do it at all.

1502. Lord Steward.] With regard to the excuses wliich you say prisoners
frequently make with a view to avoid the punishment of the treadwheel, are you
able, generally, to distinguish between bo)utJkle excuses, and mere pretexts ?

Generally ; sometimes they are very clever, but I do not think now that they
often get excused.

1503. Can you, or the surgeon, generally distinguish between excuses and
pretexts ?

\'es', 1 almost flatter myself that I know more about it than the surgeon.

1504. Have you frequently found any injurious consequences arise from the
employment of the treadwheel, such as rupture r

No, never ; once or twice men have slipped off and bruised themselves, but the
wheel is instantly stopped ; we have never had a fracture of a limb since I have
been there.

1505. And no increase of any affection of the heart?
No, not that I know of; I never heard of such a thing.

1506. Chairman.] Is the man examined previously to his being put upon the
wheel ?

Yes, every man is examined and reported by the surgeon as fit or unfit for the
wheel.

i,-,07. If there was any suspicion of the man being in an unfit state of health,
he would be taken off, would he not ?

Yes.

1.508. Earl Cathcart.] How many feet of ascent do you require in a day ?

1 scarcely know ; I believe it is 57 steps in a minute ; the steps are 10 inclies
wide.

I 509. But you are a^^ are, are you not, that the ascent is limited to 2,000 feet ?
In my prison it is within my limit, but I consider it is quite fast enough.

1.510. Marquess of Salisbury.'] You give 6 i hours to each prisoner for a day's
work, do you not }

Yes.

1 .51 1 . What becomes of the prisoner during the remainder of ihe day ?

The day is divided into three periods : before breakfast, between breakfiist and
dinner, and between dinner and supper; the prisoner comes off of course for his
breakfast and his dinner, and when he comes off from his labour after diiuier, he
is locked up.

1.512. Then, in fact he has, you may call it, seven hours' work and five hours'
rest r

He may rest all the remainder of the time if he likes.

1513. Therefore he is off work five hours out of the twelve ?

Yes.

I 514. The remainder of the time I suppose he is shut up in a cell ?
Yes.

i.Si:")- With regard to the treadwheel, does the number of prisoners who are
upon the wheel at a time, make any ditl'ereuce ?
The w'heel only holds so many at a time.

1 .5 1 6. Have you ever foinid yourself short of that number ?
Never.

1.517. Have you, in case you should be short of the number, any means of
regulating it.

The efFect would not be to give the prisoners any more trouble. I should not
have so much poucr upon the stones for the grinding of the wheat. That would

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 147

be tlio only difference. It Avould not give the prisoners more labour, I mean to Majcr W.Fnl/nrd,
sav tljat one man would not be able to turn the Aviicel ; but, 10 men being off r- a.

out oC 48, "ould produce no effect at all uj)on the labour. The treadwheel ~ '

labour is merely going- nps.tairs ; there is no physical weight upon the foot. The ^*

stair drop? from under the prisoner.

1518. It has been stated that it is a very painful position, from the man having
to hang upon the treadwheel. Have you ever found that to be the case ?

A man wlio is first |)ut on the wheel is awkward at it for a day or two ; but I do
not think tiiat tiiey fee! it so much afterwards. Of course the labour acts differently
v\ith dirterent people; it is much less trouble and much less exertion, say, to a
hodman, or to a man who has been employed in going up a ladder, than it would
be at first to a tailor or ;i collier who lias been sitting crouched up in a small hole
in a coal-pit ; but, when they get once into the swing of the thing, wliich they do
in a day or two, they have no further trouble about it.

1,319. Then you have not observed that the ])osition in which the prisoners are
placed, as vas slated by one of the witnesses before this Committee, causes a
strain upon their muscles, which is likely to be very injurious to them ?

1 do not think so, unless the chain be too long to which they are attached.
If a man hangs back too far it would be so ; but, if he stands up to his work, if
he is jierpendicular, and the chain is a short one, I do not see why it should affect
him at all. I never heard the thing questioned for a moment.

i;,20. Earl of Z)Mf//t7/.] As a rule, you do not find amongst the greater number
of prisoners, that any inconvenience arises from the use of the treadwheel?
Not the least.

1521. Marquess of Salisbaru.^ Do you approve of separation upon the
■wheel ?

Yes ; all my prisoners are separated.

152.'. Do you think that that is advantageous.'^
I tliink so.

1523. They are off the wheel every other quarter of an hour, are they not ?
In my prison they are on sixteen minutes, and off eight.

1 524. L)u;ing the time that they are off, is the same separation enforced ?

They are still in rheir separate stalls Each stall is about the breadth of this
table, 1 should think, and it reaches out behind the man ; and there is a small
seat conveniently placed for the purpose ; and when the machinery rino-^ the bell,
which notes his turn to drop off, he sinks on to his seat, and he cannot see
anyl)ody.

1,52.5. Earl of D«c/e.] Do you think that shot drill could be advantageously
introduced into county priscms r

It was lirouglit into the military service after I left it, and I have never seen
it at all. It is very irksome, no doubt.

1526. Loi'd Steward.] Have you ever had occasion to employ any mo de of
punishment to compel prisoners to go upon the treadwheel ? Have they ever
refused to do so ?

Sometimes ; not very often. Occasionally a man turns rusty, and will not go
on ; but the stoppage of a meal (a supi)er generally) is sufficient to make them
go on. In thirteen years there may have been three cases of that sort, perhaps.
I think we had one man flogged for it, but he went up the next day, and he never
dropped off agiiin.

l.')27- Chairmmi.'] What is your opinion with regard to corporal punishment
for pri-on offences ?

I do not think I could manage my prison without it; it is very seldom resorted
to; but it is an incomparable punishment, no doubt.

1528. Have you uniformly found it effective?

Always, but in one solitary instance, about 12 years ago, soon after I came to
the prison, and that man is in prison now. He was a boatman, a young man
about '20, and he was put to tlic crank labour, and he would not do it ; and so I
punished him up to the limit of my power. I gave him three davs in the dark

(37.5.) t2 ' cell,

148 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Major V,\F„lford, Cell, and still he said he would not work ; and, notwithstanding all I could say to

"• '^- liiin, he would not. So I took him before the justices, and they gave him "two

ijth March 1863. '^"zen lashes, and then he was sent back to work, and lie would not ; they gave

' li'Qi four dozen, and he would not work then, and by tliat time his time Avas up.

He was out, I should think, six months, and then he came back again; but the
next time he came in he wori<ed, and he has worked every time since, and lie has
been in a dozen times since that.

1529. Is that the one single exception of a man receiving two floggings during
the whole course of your experience as governor of the gaol ?

No ; we had a man Hogged the week before last, the second time ; really there
was no escape from flogging him, but I was sorry for him. He was a man of
excessively bad temjier, and he had made use of the most horribly insubordinate
language, and the most gross and filthy language he could think of, and I reported
him to the justices, who ordered him to have a dozen lashes, and he told me it
was quite enough, he should never offend any more ; but, unfortunately, we had
an oflicer who was a very weak man, and, on one of the frosty mornings wlien this
prisoner was at exercise, he had his hands in his pockets, and, for some reason or
other, the officer pecked and pecked at him so long till he raised his ire again ; he
was continually telling him that he would bring him to me, and he wouhrgct I do
not know what punishment ; and the end of it was, the prisoner knocked him
down, Mliich I was not much surprised at. However, the magistrates said they
could not permit such conduct, and they ordered the man two dozen lashes ; that
is the only other instance that I can call to mind.

■•530. Earl Cathcart,~\ How do they conduct the punishment of flogging in
prison ?

The man is tied u]) as in a military flogging, and I parade the whole of the pri-
soners, and read the j)rocecdings from the magistrates' minute book, and he is
flogged in the presence of all the prisoners and the surgeon.

1531. Do you employ one man or two men to flog r
Only one.

1532. Is it anything like equal to the punishment which is given in the army?
1 should say it is a good deal worse than any flogging I ever saw in the army.

1533. Do the first 12 lashes break the skin ?

I do not know that they break the skin, but they are spread out so much more.
A drummer in the army is drilled to put the whole of the 25 lashes into one little
spot, but an unskilled artist does not ever hit in the same place ; and therefore,
although he may not break the skin, it is the first lashes that smart, not the last.

1534. Are you aware whether in the army the first 12 lashes cut the skin ?
Yes ; but they are all put in the same place.

1.S35- Is the man marked in prison by flogging so as to identify him a year or
two afterwards ?

Sometimes the flogging leaves a mark, I believe, but I am told not always. I
do not know whether it is so or not, I have never seen a man's back afterwards.

153G- Do men, when they are flogged, show any signs of feeling; do they cry
out at all r

This last one that I spoke of was the most hard-skinned fellow I ever saw in
my life ; his hands were tied up, but he did not even shut his eyes or change colour
at all ; but in general they make a tremendous outcry.

1 537- Chairman.'] There are some classes of ]irisoners, are there not, with whom
it would be al)soIutely impossible to carry on the discipline of the prison if it were
not for the terror of corporal punishment ?

No doubt it is so ; it is the only thing that they dread.

1538. Do you believe, as a matter of opinion, that if corporal punishment
were applied in certain cases of re-convictions, it v\ould produce a very salutary
effect ?

I think so.

1,539. Earl C(ilhcart.'\ You are aware from 3'our military experience, are you
not, that the men frequently are flogged over and over again in the army ?

Not very frequently ; perhaps there may be one man in a regiment or less who

would

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 149

would be flogged over again, but I do not think that many people get flogged Major W.Fulford,
twice in the army. ^- ■*•

1540. Chairman.'] At wliat o'clock are the prisoners locked up ? 17th Marcli 1863.
The lights are put out at eight o'clock.

1541. And at what o'clock do they rise in the morning?

At a quarter before six when it is light enough, and six when it is not ; just
now they have begun to rise at a quarter before six.

1542. Therefore they are in darkness for very nearly ten hours ?
Yes.

1 .543. Are you of opinion that those ten hours are necessary ?
Not necessary for a man's rest, I think ; but I do not see how it could be
well altered.

1544. Are the cells liglited with gas?

Yes ; at one time it was suggested that we ought to keep them up for educa-
tional purposes, and so forth, to a later hour, and that it was a waste of time, and
therefore for about a month, I think, I tried it, and kept the cells lighted till half-
past nine, and I went round myself and examined the cells through the inspection
holes at various periods during that time, and I found that there were not above
three prisoners who were not aslee[) at nine o'clock. They were ordered not to
go to bed, but they all had their heads down upon the tables, and were asleep

notwithstanding.

»•

1545. Are you aware of the resolution of the House of Commons in 1850,
which limited the number of hours of sleep to eight?

Yes.

1 546. In your opinion, would eight hours be sufficient ?
Yes, quite.

1,547. Are there not evils which result in a prison from allowing too great a
continuance of sleep ?

It is a waste of life certainly, but I do not know that there is any great evil
beyond what attaches to that. I am not aware of any absolute evil.

1548. On what do the prisoners sleep ?
In hammocks.

1549. Do they all sleep in hammocks ?

On the summary side of the prison there are a certain number of wooden
guard-beds as it were, such as they have in military guard-rooms, to wiiich
prisoners are sent on re-conviction for poaching or vagranc}', and such like
offences, for any time not more than three months.

] 550. Do you allow a mattress with those guard-beds ?

No.

1.551. Do the prisoners sleep on the boards?

Yes, they sleep on the boards ; they have a blanket and rug.

1552. Have you ever become aware of any injurious consequences to the men's
iiealth from that practice ?
Not the least.

1553- Would there be any difficulty in applying that system for more than
three months ?

I do not know; we have never -done so for a longer period, but the men go
out as well as the others. I have never observed any difference ; they are always
complaining, of course.

1 554. Do you weigh the prisoners on their entrance and discharge?
Yes.

1555. Have you found, as a general rule, that prisoners lose weight?
No, they have rather increased.

1556. Earl oi Dudley.'] What is the division of the day; has each prisoner so
much work, and so much teaching, and so much industrial occupation, or how is
it managed?

(_37. 5.) T 3 Those

150 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Major W. Fulford, Those prisoners who are in their ells are taught or spoken to by the chaplain,

""^' when he thinks fit, at any hour of the day ; the industrial teaching goes on all

ijtli March 18G3. day; those who are eni])loyed in their cells get their exercise in tlie yards twice

a-day, otherwise they are in their cells all the day, supposed to be at their w ork,

whatever it is.

1557. Are those prisoners who are cnijiloyed in hard labour at the tread-
wheel and the crank, not employed at all in industrial occujjation ?
No.

1558- Do those who are doing hard labour receive any education ?

From six till seven in the evening the schoolmaster and some of the warders
are emplo\ed in an adult class, and twice a week a certain number, some of whom
apply for it themselves, and some are suggested by the chajjlain, attend on the
schoolmaster in the school-room, but not many.

1559- They are not separately instructed, are they ?

No, they are in the school-ioom together, but under surceiilance tlie whole
time; there are two officers watching them.

1,560. If they are recommended by the chajilain, they are all allowed to go
into a class with the schoolmaster, it being much easier to teach a number in a
class than individually r

Yes, I suj)pose so.

1561. Does any man who comes in for, as you say, over six months, get an
op]»ortuuity of learning?

If he wishes it ; it is not compulsory.

1562. Do you find, as a rule, that many refuse ?

There are some few who learn very readily, but I should say that there are
more who do not,

i."i63. Then are the Committee to understand this : that there are a great many
Iirisoners who come into your gaol, who ])erform the labour that they are obliged
to do, and will do nothing else ; that is to say, they will not volunteer to learn r

They will not volunteer to learn ; all those uho can read arc suj)plied with books
of instruction in their cells.

1,564. Just take that class who only perform the wheel-labour which is put
upon them ; when that is done their day is done, is it not ?
Yes.

1565. Have they the treadwheel Avith a ceitain amount of time for their meals,
and an airing besides?

i\o, the wheel counts as their airing.

1.566. And their day is done with when they finish their work on the wlieel ?
Yes, and then, as a general rule, they go to sleep.

1.567. You were asked whether you did not think that so many hours in a cell
alone was productive of evil ; I think that cjuestion bore upon a particular evil, as
to whether so many hours in the cell alone led to anything in the gaol that would
be prejudicial to the health of the prisoners ^

Not to my knowledge in any way ; at least I am not aware of it.

i,'i6S. With regard to the class wlio are engaged in hard labour, when their
work is done you simply send them to their cells, and there they lie till the
morning ?

That class of people who arc totally ignorant, and whose minds are void, as it
were, can sleep a much larger number of hours than persons of education can do.

1.569. Thsn we come to the chiss who are industrially occupied ; how many
liours do they have of industrial occupation, and how many hours of airing?

Tliey ought to have two hours a day of airing, and in a general way, barring
the climate, they have that amount.

1.570. Lord Sktvaid.] "When the weather is bad, how do you manage ?

Then tliey do not go out ; if it is a very bad, downright ])()uring day, we should
not send them out ; but if it were a little drizzly, and so forth, they would go out.

1571. Earl

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 151

1571 . Earl of Dudley.] How many hours of industrial work have tliey ? Major W. Fulford,

The tailors and shoemakers are supposed to work much later tliau the others, R- a.

and they do s-o ; their tools and things are such that they can work bv "aslifht

and they work till half-past six. .' » - & ' 17th Marcl. 1863.

1,57-?. How many hours have the others?

The others leave off at a quarter before five, and then they have their sni)per,
which is supposed to take lialf an hour in getting, and arranging- and one thing
and another, but it really takes about an hoar or more.

1.573- ^c>'<J Stcwarcl.l Is not the instruction in classes a little inconsistent with
the separate system ?

Precisely so, as we arc doing now ; only that instead of 'me watcher, as it may
be, there are several oiikers, one to every three or four, perhaps, m-Iio is
assisting in tlie teaching.

I, ',74. Do you think that any inconvenience arises from that r
Not the least.

1575. Does no communication take place ?
I think not.

1576. Chairman.] V.hat is tlie proportion which you would allot of officers to
men whilst they are receiving class instruction ?

Perhaps from 10 to 20 men would have four officers. Some of the [irisoners
read very badly, and colliers and such like people could not get on at all if there
were not a large proportion of officers there. Some of them are very intent upon
receiving instruction. Those who do wish to learn, learn wonderfully rapidly.

1577. Do you conceive that when a class consists of from 25 to 30 men, and
there is one oHicer at the outside, two olticers in the room assisting the school-
n:aster, either that the men themselves can gain very much information in the
long nm, or that it is possible to prevent communications passing between one and
the other ?

I do not think that they could begin at the beginning, ;ind learn up anythino-
very much, but I think that comnnuiication is prevented by ilie system tliat we
adopt.

1.57s. Earl of 7?ow;n(??/.] ilay all prisoners who are sentenced to hard labour
demand to be taken to the schoolmaster r

No, I sujjpose not ; there is no settled rule about it ; practically thev do not ;
a good many would not be allowed to be taught; men who ;:re conductino- them-
selves ill in the prison, or v,ho are r.'-convicted, and so forth ; but the chaplain
arranges that matter; I do not interfere M'ith it at all.

1.579. ^^ affords a very good opportunity, does it not, for a man's pretending that
he wanted to be taught, in order to evade the hard labour?

They are taught twice a week in the school, and I dare say it may be used as a
pretext, but the Act of Parliament says that the cliaplain shall have the men at
such hours as he thinks necessary, whether it takes tliem from their hard labour
or not ; therefore, I have no voice in the matter.

1580. Chairman.] Since the system of instruction has been in force in your
prison, have you noticed any increase in the general intelligence or educational
cajiacity of the prisoners t

No, I think not. The chaplain's return, I think, does not vary much annually
with regard 10 the astounding ignorance of the great bulk of them.

1.581. Do you find that those who are recommitted remember the instructions
with tolerable accuracy which they have received in prison ?

Prisoners who mean to learn, for instance, adults of the class of small trades-
men, either masons or carpenters, or something of that sort, who go in and find
it hard to learn, I do not think ever come back again, and a man who in three
months will learn to read and write, and do it fairly, as I have known many of
them do, does not mean to comeback, he is doing it for a purpose.

•5S2. Lord President.] Have yon observed from what class you get the
greatest number of reconvictions; whether from the animal stupid class, ov from
those who show an anxiety for instruction ?

With regard to juveniles, of whom we have a great many in Staffordshire, there
(.37. 3.) T 4 are

152 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Major i\ . Fiilford, ^re a great, many who have learned entirely to read and write in the prison, and
'_' they are almost certain to come back again.

]7'li Miircli ib(j3. 1 583. More so than those who have not learned to read and write in prison r
Yes, they are the sharpest of tlie lot.

1584. Marquess of Saltsbury.'] You do not believe in their reformation ?

No, I am sorry to say that it does not show up very well in that respect, but
rather the contrary. A little boy is brouglit in for stealing a loaf, or a cake, or a
knife, or some small offence, and he is sent to prison for 21 days, we will say. J
have had them really so small and so tender that I have been obliged to put them
in the female hospital to play with the kitten ; that is an absolute fact. Most of
those little wretches either have a ste])father or a stepmother, and they lead tlie
life of dogs at home ; and the effect of their coming into prison, where they are
fed, and housed, and clothed, and treated gently i#, that they have lost the dread
of a prison, and they have o'ained the swagger of a prison bird, and they come
back again. If those little boys were whipped at the police ortice, instead of
being sent to jirison, it would make a material difference in the number of our
prisoners.

1585. Earl of Dudlet/.^ As a rule have you not been relieved of those boys by
tlieir being sent to reformatories ?

We have decreased a little, but a very little, in the average number of our
Juveniles since the reformatory system began.

1586. You still have juveniles sent to you, have you not ?
Yes.

1587. Earl Calhcart.~\ Is it not the case that reformatories will not take small
boys until a second conviction r

It is a very difficult case to manage, because some reformatories will not take
them unless they are very bad boys, and other reformatories will not take them if
they are b;id boys ; some will not take a boy under a certain age, and others
will not take him over a certain age, and the effect of the two systems is that
the justices in the country are rather puzzled as to whether they shall send any
particular boy to a reformatory, because they do not know whether they will
receive him or not.

1588. Is it not the case that when boys are put into prison the first night they
cry very much r

1 have had several cases of that sort ; for instance, the case which I mentioned
of the little boy with the kitten, and I have had three or four boys in whose
cases we have been obliged to light their gas, and leave the door of their cells
open by night ; but it is astonishing what hard lives most of them have led before
they come into prison, and consequently they do not care much about it in any
way.

158Q. Chainjifiii.'] During your ex[)erience as governor of a gaol, have you
ever known a case of prisoners returning to the gaol by their own contri-
vance?

Yes, I think that prisoners from workhouses frequently commit some offence in
the workhouse in order that they may come l)ack to prison ; the prisoners have
told me so many times.

1590. Is that in consequence of the system pursued in the workhouse, both in
point of diet and of general comfort being very inferior to that which they receive
when in prison ?

The prisoners themselves tell me that the whole system in the workhouse is
much less comfortahle than that of our jirison, and some years ago, by order of the
visitin"- justices, I made a comiiarisoii between some eight or nine of the neigh-
bouring Union workhouses to Staflord and the Stafford gaol, and I found that our
weight^'of diet per week was greater than any one of them.

1591. Lord WodeJioii.se.'] Is it not found that i'emale prisoners more often
come back from the m orkhouse to the prison than male prisoners ?

I do not know that it is more the case with them than with the others. Female
])risoncrs elect to be confined in child-birth in the jirison in preference to the
workhouse ; they would always come if they could.

1592. Earl

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 153

1592. Earl of Ducllaj.'] Do you mean that they commit an offence in order tliat Major W.Fulford,

they may be sent from the union to'prison ? n. a.

Yes, I have one now in my custody wlio has been committed upwards of . ,"; ; .^
^,„ ,. J J I 17th March 18G5.
70 tunes. ' ^

1593. Chairman.^ Would you be good enough to put in a table of the dietary
of your gaol ?

Yes (delivering in the same). (Vide Appendix.)

1.59:^. Is that dietary framed on the Government rules ?

I believe there is some very trifling variety in it, but I am not sure whether
there is or is not.

1595. Will you state to the Committee how often, under the last class, the pri-
soners receive meat ?

Class :") receive, on Sundays, Tncsdavs. Thursdays and Saturdays, four ounces of
cooked meat without bone, and soup on the oiher three days.

1596. Consequently meat, in one shape or other, is given every day ?
Yes.

1597. As a mere practical question, and not receiving it in any scientific light,
is that, in your opinion, enough, or is it too much ?

1 think it is too much.

1598. Do you believe that it might be reduced without injury to the prisoners?
I think so ; I am not sure that it is too much for prisoners who are confined for

two years or a long term of that sort, but up to a year I am convinced that it is
more tlian is necessary.

1599. You therefore think that the ordinary classification which allows this
substantial diet at the close of four or five months' imprisonment commences too
soon r

If the imprisonment is only to last a year I think it does, but if it is to go
on for 18 months or two years I do not think it does.

1600. Would it not therefore be wiser to have another break in the diet at the
close of the first 12 months?

Yes, if it is considered advisable to have such long imprisonments in the county
prisons ; but it seems to me that if the imprisonments were shorter, and the whole
discipline severer, it would be better and more deterrent.

1601. Speaking generally, do you consider the diet which is allowed in all
prisons is in excess of the diet that they would receive in the workhouse ?

Yes, in the case of the higher classes of diet, not in the first and second classes.

1 602. Earl of Romnfij.'\ At Stafford there is a break at the end of three months,
is there not, in Class 4 ?

Class 3 is for one calendar month, and not longer than three mouths ; Class 4
is for terms exceeding three calendar months, and not more than four months.

1603. That is the difference between the regulation at StaflTord and that sug-
gested by the Secretary of State ?

Yes ; that was arranged by the justices and Mr. Perry when he was the inspector
of the Stafford district.

1604. Chairman.] Therefore I think the Committee are to collect that in
point of diet, and in point of bedding, and in point of the general comfort of the
cell, the prisoners enjoy advantages in prison which they do not receive when they
are in the workhouse ?

Yes.

1605. And consequently there is a disposition on the part of many who are in
workhouses to commit workhouse offences in order to gain admittance to prison.

Yes, certainly.

1606. Earl Cathcart.] You arc speaking of some particular workhouse, are you
not, and not of workhouses generally ?

No ; I am not speaking of any workhouse in particular. The workhouses that
I am sjicaking of were seven or eight unions. Stoke, and the various unions in
the neighbourhood all round the prison, were the ones that were tested.

(37.5.) U 1607. Chairman.]

154 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

3Iqjor W.Tulford, 1607. C/iuiriiiaii.'] You are speaking- of those unions which are withiu the

^'^' county, and which, in fact, in that sense would be said to feed the prison?

jjlh March 1863. Q^^'i^e so.

ibiiS. Can you supply the Committee with information as to the number and
amount of recommittals r

Yes. I can do so for the last year. In IS62 there were 622 prisoners tried at
the Sessions and Assizes, of whom 180 were either acquitted, or the bills against
them were thrown out by the grand juries. Therefore, there were 442 who were
convii ted, 39 of whom had served various terms of penal servitude. It appears
that 77 of the 442 had been once before in prison, 42 had been twice, 22 had
been three times, 21 had been four times, 5 had been five times, 9 had been
six times, 13 had been seven times, 9 had been eight times, 1 had been nine
times, 3 had been ten times, 1 had been fonrteen times, and 1 had been
twenty-three times, so far as we know of our own dealings with them. They
might have been in other prisons besides.

1609. Marquess of S^/l/sbury.] Does that include summary convictions?
Yes, for all sorts of offences.

1(^10. Chairman. '\ May the recommittals for 1862 be accepted as a fair average
of the recommittals in each year ?
Yes, I think so.

1611. Are you of opinion that that amount of recommittals is necessary under
any system ?

No, I should think not. That brings in the very point that we have been
tali<ing of. In the case of a great many of those who were committed and recom-
mitted again and again, probably those that had been in the longest time began
when they were nine years old, and they never should have begun at all. That
is one point. Then, if the others had been more seriously dealt w ith, on a former
occasion, jtrobably some of them would not have come back.

1612. Tlierefore the Committee may infer that the system, Avhatever it is at
present, is not so deterring as it might be ?

I think so.

1613. Are you of opinion that there are ceitain classes of offenders upon
whom the whole machinery of moral reformation, as it is termed, is practically
thrown away.

Yes, certainly.

1614. Are you of opinion that moral instruction has any weight with the class
of receivers ot stolen goods ?

None whatever.

1615. Do you believe that it has any influence over men Avho are trained and
halutual thieves ?

No.

1616. Are you of opinion that it has any influence over those who are recon-
victed more than twice ?

Nc.

1617. Therefore in all those cases, you would wish to substitute a more
deterring element in your system than mere moral instruction 1

Yes, quite so. There is one other class that I do not think are at all deterred,
namely, coiners antl jiassers of bad money. I remember one case of a «hoIe
family" who were sent to me, a man and his wife and some other member of the
family, to undergo imprisonment; and actually their iricnds brought them base
coin "at the door of the prison, and they did not get .')00 yards from the door,
before they were caught again for passing it, and they had not been out of prison
half an hour.

i6i S. Do you believe that the apjdiances of moral reformation have any effect
upon tlie class of vagrants ?

No, I think not. 1 consider that in a great many cases with the class of
va"Tants, the prison is a mode of resting in their passage from place to place,
more convenient and agreeable than the workhouse.

i6iq. Would

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. J 55

10 I q. Would it therefore be vour opinion tlmt with those classes it would be Major W.Fulford,
better to make the discipline more penal and more sliarji, and more irksome than ^■■*'

it is at present, and to reserve the moral reformation for the longer sentenced j-jj^ March 1863.

prisoners, and prisoners of altoji^ether a different class?

I do not know what the other classes are.

1620. Are there any classes to whom the system of moral reformation, as it is
at present applied, is valuable ?

Very few indeed, I am afraid. I was going to say not 1 in 500, but T consider
the moial element in the s\stem to be nil. A man has come in once for some
offence ; say a farm labourer who has got drunk at a fair, and has got into some
trouble through a case of drunkenness, or something of that sort ; or a domestic
servant who pilfers from her mistress from some little want of money at the
moment to buy some finery, or some accident of that sort, comes into prison once,
and the chaplain talks to them of course, and they go to church every day, and
all that kind of thing; and no doubt they are comforted and supported by what
the chaplain says ; but 1 do not believe they would ever come back if there was
no chaplain ; they are accidental offenders, and are of a totally different class from
thieves or vagrants, and all other classes of criiuinals. They come to prison
because it is the accident of their life, just as in the case of a man hunting who
breaks his collar-bone ; lie does not like it, but it is the accident of his life, and it
is the accident of their lives, and a very disagreeable one to come to gaol, and
they go through it as quietly as possible, and get over it ; and it is to some of
them a real rest ; their lives are most exciting, and they require a certain rest,
and they do not care about it

1621. Have you ever been able to follow, by means of inquiries, any of those
prisoners who have made great professions of reformation whikst in ];rison?

Yes, I did so once, and a very great failure it was. Lord Hathertou and the
Bishop of Lichfield once gave me 10 I. to lay out as I thought best among
prisoners who 1 thought might be benefited by it after they had left us, it' they
were in want of any little assistance to set them goin"-. And, first of all, 1 was
not to have anything to do with the chaplain in the matter; it was a stipulation
that I was to do it without any reference to him. I took a great deal of trouble
about it. In the case of one man whom I had known somethitig of before, he
was employed at a [joulterer's shop at Staftord, and he had gone away, and got into
trouble at a tish shop at the other end of the county, and had embezzled his
master's fish money. However, he was very penitent, and he had a wife, and if I
would set him up he said he should do very well indeed, and that he coukl earn
7 5. or 8 s. a day as a dresser of poultry at a great shop at Manchester. So 1 took
some little bother about it, and wrote to people at Manchester, and got him a
place at this shop, and paid his fare over, and got him a suit of clothes, but
within a fortnight he walked away with a whole basket of poultry. That was my
first case ; and I had not one out of 12 or 14 that did me the slightest credit.

1622. Lord Presi(h'nt.'\ Do you think that you could make any prison disci-
pline suflrciently deterring to prevent that class of people from committing* those
crimes ?

Not in all cases ; but there are a great many of them who lead a life of luxury
and sensual indulgence who are more sensitive to suff"ering than persons of a
higher class ; they cannot bear suffering as I could, or as any of your Lordships
could, and they would not bear it.

1623. Earl of Dudley ?\ Is it not a matter of calculation Mith them what pun-
ishment they will get for certain ofiences r

Yes, they know that to a nicety almost, and they know exactly the judge who
is to try them, and the judges' characters are discussed by them, and they know
that some are more gentle than others ; and it is the same with regard to the chair-
men and assistant chairmen of sessions; they prefer being tried by one rather
than another.

iG-'4. Lord Steward?^ They could hardly know, when they commit an offence,
who is to be the judge that will try them ?

No, but they could tell the sort of sentence ; and in the case of offences tried at
sessions they know the judge who is going to try them.

1625. Earl of i2o;««c^.] One of the great evils attending the present system is
that you give them long sentences, and then are obliged to feed tliem well ?

(37. 5.) u 2 Yes,

156 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

•

Major W. Ful/onl, Yes, we nve obliged to let down the whole disci])line in the case of long

R.A. sentences. If I were to carrj^ out strict discipline ; if I had the means of giving

_ . ~ — • every man who is sentenced to hard labour in Staftbrd pi'ison the full amount of

i-tn . arc 11 3. jjj^^jpjjj^g ^],a,t I am empowered to do by Act of Parliament, for two years, no man

alive could bear it : it would kill the strongest man in England.

1626. Without going to tlie full term in the case of prisoners who are in for
more than twelve months and are subjected to tlie jirisDU diet, the comparison as
between gaols and workhouses is in favour of the gaols?

Yes ; and nt)t only that, but I think it is of great importance that the discipline
should never be relaxed ; that he sliould go out with it stinging hot.

1627. You think that if a mode of punishment were devised with shorter terms
of imprisonment you might give a lower diet?

Yes ; it is not that the treadwheel labour is hard work, but it is the monotony
and irksomeness of it which renders it punitive. 1 dare say the prisoners in the
Government prisons, allhough I have never seen one of them, do a longer and
harder day's work ihan they do in mine ; but there is a variety in the labour, and
they are out of doors too, which makes it much less irksome.

1628. Do not you think that if, instead of sending men in for six months, they
were sent in for three weeks or six weeks, with a low diet, such as you might give
in that case, with a whipping once or twice, that would be much more deterring
than ihe present system 1

I am sure it would ; that really v.ould be deterring.

1629. 'i'herefore it would get rid of the great difficulty with regard to feeding
them too well as compared to persons in their own position in life out of doors,
and it would also save a great deal of expense, would it not, in having so many
I^ersons in juison ?

Yes, I think so.

1630. Ear] of Diidlci/.] How long should a sentence of that description last ?
Three months ; you could keep a man upon a very short diet for three months,

because I do not hold that it is absolutely necessary that you should send a man
out witli his muscles and his weight precisely the same as when he came in. He
has committed an oH'ence for which he is to be punished, and punished throughout.
Of course he should not be sent out of prison to faint in the road, or anything of
that sort ; but 1 think it is a mistaken notion that he should be fed, and sent out
in the open air every day with the doctor, and petted up ; and if he says lie
cannot eat his dinner to-day, that he is to be weighed, and have a pint of milk
given him. I look upon all that as nonsense. I would say, let him go without.

1631. Marquess of Sa/isbtirij.] Is that done in your prison ?

I do not know tliat that is absolutely done, but the diet is varied at the im-
soner's request very often.

1632. Earl of Ducic] Do you think that a much severer discipline would lead
to desperate attempts to resist caj)ture ?

I tliink not.

1633. Earl Cdthcarl.~\ But if you turn a man out in a weak state, how is he to
earn his livelihood ?

I would not do that ; I am not talking of real downright weakness.

1634. Earl of Malmeshury.'] Do you find thorn very much depressed, and that
tliey lose much vital power when they first come in, from any cause ?

Some fcw.of tliem do, but as a rule they do not. They almost all sink a little
in weight, say between 2 lbs. and 3 lbs., but that we look for.

1635. Is it not the case that most of them are addicted to drinking and accus-
tomed to stimulating liquors before they come in ?

A great many oi them are.

1636. Has not the sudden stoppage of stinuilants an effect upon the spirits,
animal and physical, at first ?

It has a certain efiect, l)ut not much ; on an average they drop about 2 lbs. or
8 lbs. in weight, not more than that, and they soon pick it up again.

1637. That

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 157

1637. That depression does not last long? Major W.Fulf'ord,
No, except in some exceptional cases. "• ^•

1638. Earl of iiojHnc!/.] It may be only getting into condition ? 17th March 18O3,
It may be so. In Staflordshire they live perhaps higher than in any county in ~^

England out of doors. Wages are so high in the " black country " in the southern
division nf Staffordshire, that they indulge in the most luxurious living ; and the
enormous quantities of meat and strong drink that the colliers and iron people are
able to consume is wonderful.

'y^i^). Lord Steward.^ Are the prisoners separated in the chapel of the Stafford
gaol r

No, not at all.

1640. Do you think it is desirable that they should be sejmrated ?

No, I do not think it desirable that they should ; Ave have rarely a com-
])laint ; the chapel is as open as any church tan possibly be ; they are all open
sittings.

1641. Do you think that tliey never communicate?

Occasionally a man may nod to his neighbour, or something of that sort,
but beyond that there is very seldom any communication, the punishment being
that they shall not come to chapel, and it is such a boon to a fellow who is locked
up in his cell, at any rate all Sunday alone, that it acts very powerfully to pre-
vent their talking. I believe from what I have seen in one or two of the London
prisons, where they have divisions in the chapel, and from what I have heard the
officers of the prisons say, that it is much more easy to communicate in them than
it is with us. We have ofKcers all over the building cross-firing at them, and they
cannot communicate.

1642. Earl of 'Dudley.~\ What do you think of the Government inspection of
gaols, do you consider it bona jide ?

Yes, 1 think so.

] 643. Has the inspector any real power ?

I do not think I can answer that question ; but the inspector has suggested
several improvements to the visiting justices of the Stafford gaol.

1644. If the justices please, do they not set his recommendations entirely at
nought ?

They sometimes please to take no notice of them at all.

164=1. Do not \ou know other cases where they take no notice at all of the
recommendations of the inspector, and uliere therefore the inspection is of no
actual avail ?

I have heard the inspector himself say so ; in fact it is so stated in their own
annual rejjorts, that they go to prisons and find that things which they have sug-
gested have not been done.

1646. If I understand rightly, you generally take your orders from the visiting
justices and from the quarter sessions ?

Yes, they are my masters.

1647. You do not consider yourself bound to carry out any suggestion of the
Government inspector ?

No, I have nothing to do with him.

1648. Earl of Alalmesbury.'l Does that answer ajipily to the Secretary of State's
suggestions ?

The Secretary of State communicates witli the visiting justices, and occasionally
with me, but any proposed alteration of the system, or anytiiing of that kind, always
comes to the visiting justices.

1649. ^"t the Secretary of State does communicate with you sometimes, does
he net ?

Yes, but never on those matters, only on some detailed matters.

1650. Marcjuess of ;Sa/w'iMrj/.] He communicates with you, does he not, in
cases of petitions?

Yes, and in matters relating to the sickness of a juisoner, and so forth.

(37. 5.) u 3 1 65 \ . Lord

158 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Major IF. Fulford, i6',i. Lord Wodekoiise.] Do you think that it would be desirable that more
"•*• power slioiild be given to the Home Secretary with respect to the management

17th March 1863. of prisons?

I do not see that he has any power now.

16,52. Do you think that it would be desirable that some power should be given
to him ?

Yes, I do. I think that all prisons ought to be regulated, managed and governed
jirecisely alike, which is not the case at present.

1653. Chairman.^ Supposing that you could obtain that uniformity by Act of
Parliament, would not that answer your purpose just as well as by placing the
power in the hands of the Secretary of State?

It comes to the same thing ; the Secretary of State's order is equivalent to an
Act of Parliament ; any order that emanates from the Secretary of State is by Act
of Parliament binding on the visiting justices.

16.54. But are you of opinion that it would be an advantage that the Secretary
of State should interpose in the administration of prisons in lieu of visiting-
justices or the quarter sessions ?

No, I should think not.

16.55. Lord Pi'cside)il.~\ With regard to your former answer, do you consider
that the order of the Secretary of State is binding .'

Yes, I think it is ; I think you will certainly find in the Prison Act that any
order made by the Secretary of State shall be considered binding.

1656. Marquess of ^wZ/sSm/-^.] There is no penalty for an infracticm of the
order ?

No ; but the Secretary of State has power to make rules for the management of
o-aols under the last Prison Act.

16,57. Lord President.'] 1 think you will find that the pouer that he possesses
is to certify anv bye-law or rule, and also with regard to the construction of a new
prison, or the alteration of a prison, that must be approved of by him; but I do
not think that he can issue any order which the justices are bound to obey ?

The Act of Parliament says that he may approve of, alter or make additional
prison rules: " It shall be lawful for such Secretary of State, if he shall think fit,
to alter such rules, or to make additional rules ; and he shall grant a certificate
that such rules, as submitted to him, so altered or added to, are proper to be
observed and enforced." There is no penalty whatever.

16,5s. Earl Cathcart.] Is there great difficulty experienced in getting at the
criminal history of a prisoner M'hen it is necessary to do so for a conviction ?

Not often, I think. Most prisoners are remarkably simide in letting out their
foregone arrangements, either among3t their fellows or the officers or somebody.
I do not think there is much difficulty on that score.

16,59. You had four cases of insanity in the year 18G2, two females and two
males ; is not tliat in excess of the ordinary number ?
Pei-haps it is more than the average.

1 660. ^Vere there any ])eculiar circumstances connected with those cases ?
Yes ; they were ail of them insane when they were admitted.

1661. Lord President.] Do the police visit the prison in Stafford in order to
make tliemselves accpiainted with the faces of the prisoners ?

Tliey do come in frequtrntly, and I always allow them to go round the prison ;
but they arc not admitted to see more prisoners than accidentally cnne in their
way.

1662. Chairman.] You stated, did you not, that in many cases there was no
disinclination, on tlie part of many classes, to return to tiie prison ?

Yes.

166,3. Are you aware whether, in the opinion of the prisoners, as a distinction is
drawn 'between the workhouse and the prison, so any further distinction is drawn
between a county prison and a Government convict establishment ?

Yes ;

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 159

Yes ; there is a very great distinction drawn between a county prison and a Major W. Ful/ord,
Government prison; a Ciovernment prison is infinitely preferred to a county ^■^-

prison, I believe, all over England ; certain!}- in my neighbourhood I should say so. i, lu h 86

1 664. As persons in the workhouse often desire to escape from the workhouse

into the prison, so a man sentenced to a county prison would desire to pass into

a Government prison r

I have had many prisoners who have been sentenced to 18 months' hard labour
in the county prii^on, who have expressed themselves to me as very much dis-
aj)pointed and unhappy that they did not get three years' penal servitude ; because
the arrangements of the labour, and so forth, I suppose, are much more agreeable
to tliem ; I have had several who iiave been sentenced for a less term, who would
rather have had three years' imprisonment.

1 66r,. Is it not a matter of fact, that with the generality of offenders, two
years' imprisonment is considered a much more severe sentence than three years'
penal servitude ?

Yes, a great deal. '

1666. Does the number of prisoners in your gaol increase during the winter
quarter ?

No, it is just the reverse ; there are always fewer prisoners on Christmas-day
than on any other day in the year.

16O7. Is there any other information which you desire to give the Committee,
on any point which has been raised before them ?

I think that there are several ways in which prisons might be reduced in number ;
I do not know whether that is the business of the Committee at present ; but I
mean with regard to the supply of prisoners.

1665. The Committee would be glad of any suggestion that would bear upon
prison discipline in any shape r

There are a great many prisoners who are committed to my prison, both men
and women, for petty assaults, mo«;t of them very trifling indeed, and most of them
from towns; they rush to the policemen while they are hot, and by the time they
have caught the oflenders they are sorry for it ; but the policeman does not let
them go very often, and they are taken before a magistrate, and then the process
goes on, and they are found guilty of having committed some very small assault,
and they are fined and imprisoned, or imprisoned without a fine, and to find
sureties; either they have to pay some very trifling fine, or they are imprisoned
for a short time, say, 14 days or three weeks, and then they have to find sureties
for six months, which is frequently a very difficult thing to do ; very often they
have not got a friend in the world who will become bound for them, and the end
of it is, that these ])0or wretches whose whole offence is wrangling over a smoothing
iron, or a piece of washed linen over the side of a hedge, or some trifling matter
of that sort, are constantly taken away from their families for months, sutieriug for
an offence that really did not originally amount to 10 minutes' worth of imprison-
ment, in my idea.

i6t)(). Are you prepared to suggest to tlie Committee any remedy that would
meet the difficulty to which you have just referred ?

I do not know of any other way of doing it, except by making whatever
punisliment is given, certain. If a prisoner is sent to prison for tliree weeks, let
him be imprisoned for three weeks, but not for three weeks and to find sureties
for six months. However, it is a difficult question to answer, because assaults
vary so much in degree.

1670. Marquess of Salisbvry.'\ Has it ever occurred to you that we should
obtain more uniformity of punishment, if, after a certain period of confinement in
a gaol, a prisoner should be removed to a Government prison something inter-
mediate between a convict prison and a gaol ; might not that be desirable for all
j)artios r

It would be very agreeable for the prisoner ; he would like it. Any change,
I ajiprehend, would be agreeable to him, unless he were sent to Leicester. I
believe that no prisoner in England would like to go there if he could help it.

1C71. Lord President^ Is that on account of the prison, or of the discipline
there r

(37. 5.) u 4 I icfer

160 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Major W.Fulfvrd, I refer to the Government convicts. We occasionally send them from our
R. A. prison to Leicester. I sent some the other day, and one man told me that it was

hell upon earth.

17th March 1863.

1672. Earl o^ Dudley. ^^ It comes to this, does it not, that if there were severer
punishment all over the country, there would be greater hesitation about com-
mittino- offences ?

I think so.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

WILLIAM MUSSOiN^, Esq., is called in, and examined as follows :

W.Muiion Esq ^673. Chairman.'] YOU are the Governor of Leicester Gaol, are you not?
I am.

1674. l^'or how many years have you held that office ?

I have been governor 20 years ; but I have been connected with the prison
under my father, 40 years.

1675. Would you be good enough to state what the number of cells are in the
Leicester Gaol, which have been certified by the Secretary of State?

We have 212 cells that have been certified, and we have others that we use
which have not been certified.

J 676. Practically, the prisoners live in those cells, being taken out simply for
purposes of hard labour and instruction by the chaplain ?

Yes, they live in their cells, and are taken out for exercise, for employment,
and for instruction by the chaplain ; but those who are upon the crank labour are
not taken out of the cells for labour, the cells being provided with cranks ; there
are 33 cranks fixed in the different cells.

1677. Do those 212 cells include those which are rented by the Government?
A greater portion of them do. Of those 212, we are now letting 140 to the
Government.

167S. So that somewhat less than 100 certified cells are at tlie disposal of the
county for county purposes ?
Yes.

1679. Will you state to the Committee what the system is that you adopt
with respect to hard labour ?

Every prisoner sentenced to hard labour, not being a Government convict, is
placed upon what ueterm the crank ; he is there called upon to perform a certain
number of revolutions per day ; he commences upon eight hours a day, one hour
being devoted to another kind of labour of a lighter description. After a period
■which is set forth in a printed form in his cell, his labour is reduced to seven
hours, six hours, and so forth, depending altogether upon the length of his sentence.
Some work nearly the whole time ; a short sentenced prisoner will work the whole
time; a man scntinccd to 21 days hard labour, would work 12 days upon the
crank ; a man sentenced to one month would work 18 days, and a man sentenced
to six weeks would work 24 days, and so on.

1680. The princiiile being that the earlier stages of imprisonment should be
severer than tlie later ones.

Precisely so.

1681. Does every prisoner, whether he be a long sentenced prisoner or a short
sentenced prisoner. ])ass through those earlier severer stages ?

Yes, he does, unless he is excused by the surgeon.

1 AS'i. Is it part of your system that, in the event of misconduct or misbehaviour,
of any sort, the prisoner should ever be put back to the earlier stages ?

He is not put back as a prison jmnishment, but there is a condition attached,
that if he misconducts iiimself after having been put to hard labour, he renders
himself liable to be sent back to it again. 1 have here with me a notice which is
alwavs put up in the cells.

1683. Would

SELECT COMBliriEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 161

1683. M onld you be good enough to hand that in r W. Mutson,Esq.

Yes (delivering in the same. Vide Appendix).

1684. Do yon practically enforce that condition r

I cannot say ihat we do practically enforce that condition, for this reason, that
we really h.ave not cranks sufficient. We are very glad to put men to other
trades, so as to make way for those who succeed them at the cranks, because we
have only .'^3 cranks in the prison.

i()85. At present, mechanically, you have not sufficient hard labour for the
prisoners r

MLcluinieallv we have not sufficient to carry out crank labour altogether.

1686. Does tlie tread-wheel form jiart of your hard labour system?
It does not.

1687. Have you industrial occupations for the prisoners ?
^'es.

5688. At what [)eriod in the sentence does the industrial occupation take
place ?

it commences at once.

1689. And is it concurrent Mith the hard labour of the crank?
Yes.

1690. \Vith regard to the crank, would you be good enough to state how
many revolutions in a day a prisoner is required to effect ?

When he commences, he has 14,400 revolutions per day to work, that is to say,
1800 revolutions per hour. I am speaking now of adults. The juveniles have
12,000 revolutions per day to perform, or 1,500 revolutions per hour.

1691. Is it in the power of a prisoner to effect those revolutions either in a
shorter or longer time, in proportion as he may work well or badly ?

Of course, in some measure it v^ould depend upon the industry and willing-
ness of a man ; but, as a rule, it takes him the whole time.

1692. The cranks which you have mentioned I understand to be what were
commonlv known by the name of the cellular hard labour crank?

Yes.

1693. They are not cranks connected with each other by means of a shaft?
They are not.

1694. Consequently, with these cranks there is an impossibility to shirk or
to avoid the foir share of work ?

Yes, quite so.

1695. ,\ re those cranks erected in tlie cells?

The handle is placed in the cell. The crank itself is in the corridor.

1696. Is the index which registers the number of revolutions within the sight
of the j)risoner ?

1697. Have you ever found that the absence of the index, and the knowledge
of how the work was progressing, has dispirited the man in the work }

No.

1698. Do you not conceive that there is an objection to the index being out of
the cell ?

1 ratljer prefer it ; I think it occupies their minds very frequently to check
their work ; I always encourage the men to keep an account themselves of their
number of revolutions, and many will use a slate for that purpose.

1699. Have they any difficulty in testing their own calculation by reference to
the index outside the door?

They never see the index, but they can aluays keep an account of their revo-
lutions themselves within the cell.

1700. Is there a large difference between the ni.en's calculations in general and
the index ;

(37. 5.) X It

17th March i86j.

162 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

JV. Musson, Esq, it is very rarely indeed that a man disputes the number, even when reported
for idleness.

17th March 1863^

1701. Have you not found that there is an objection to the cellular crank on
account of the vitiated atmosphere of the cell, owing to the limited space within
which the prisoner works?

During the summer months it used to be warmer than I have approved of, but
latterlv 1 have had ventilators introduced into the windows, which have made very
o-reat difference, so that there is external air admitted as well as air through the
ventilating apparatus.

1702. Do you prefer, as a matter of opinion, the cellular crank to the crank
which is united by a common shaft ?

Yes, very much.

1703. On the ground that there is no opportunity for shirking the work ?
Precisely so.

1704. Are those cranks applied to unproductive labour ?
They are unproductive labour.

170.5. It lias been stated to the Committee that one effect of unproductive
labour, is to create either very great depression or great irritation and degradation
of mind in the prisoners, are you of that opinion ?

I have not of late years felt that curiosity about prison discipline which 1 used
to do formerly, but some years ago it was my practice to ask every man on his
discharo-e from prison, when he was dressed and brought into my office to be dis-
charo-ed, what had been the effect upon his mind, and in no one instance have I
ever met with a man who could say that he had been irritated by tlie work of the
crank ; tliey felt it to be hard labour, and that they admitted.

1 706. The Committee understand that in that way hundreds must have passed
under your notice .'

Yes, I should say hundreds ; I had a roll of pajiers with me which 1 produced
on a former occasion, when there was a very unpleasant inquiry, but since then
1 have !iivcn up taking any notice of the matter ; it is now some years since, but
up to that period I can very safely assure the Committee that in no one instance
did I fiu'l such a result ; but on the contrary, I believe that the great bulk of the
men quite ridiculed the idea, and I may also say that there was a large i)roportion
to whom I put tlic question, who stated that it had never entered into their minds
to think whether it was productive or not.

1707. In your opinion, is there any preference on the part of the prisoners for
one mode of employment over another ?

Yes ; the industrial employment, of course, they would prefer to the crank
labour, as being less severe.

170S. Would the diminution of severity be the main cause of their preference.'
Yes; but I think also that such work as matting and mat-making is more
interesting to the mind.

1 709. Would it not also be more easy for a prisoner to slight his fair amount
of work in industrial occupations?

It is impossible to measure the amount of work they could do.

) 7 ! 0. Practically it must be labour by time rather than labour by piece ?
Just so.

1711. Do you think that industrial occupation, taken as a whole i)iece, pays?

Yes; we are very particular in our accounts; we keep a debtor and creditor
account of everything the prisoners do, and we make a balance-sheet out every
quarter, that is four times a year ; I have before me our clear profits of 18.52 ;
I must except the cost of oflicers, and the trade instructors' and the storekeeper's
salary ; they are not included in my account of the profits,

171 -2. If it included every indirect expense which is connected with indu.strial
occupation, would thire be a profit ?
We should then have a small profit.

1713. Is the prisoner's food charged?

No ;

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE.

163

>»o; tin's is simply a debtor and creditor account of trade, the account of all
our receipts and all our expenditure ; the fact is, we do no work even for the
county that Ave do not charge for ; we make our prison clothes and shoes ;
those are passed into store, and are, upon the order of the visiting magistrates,
passed out of store for the use of the prisoners, and then the county is charged
much the same as a tradesman would charge if the purchase were made from him.

1714. Cliairma)!.'] Are the Committee to understand that you believe it to be
possil)le in the case of a short sentenced j)risoner, who is committed to gaol for
three months, and who is previously ignorant of any industrial trade, to make his
labour remunerative to the gaol }

Certainly not.

I 7 1 .5. A short sentenced prisoner then must be a dead loss so far as remunera-
tion goes ?
Yes.

1716. Will you be good enough to state whether, taking into account all the
expenses connected with the gaol, including the salaries of trade instructors, and
including the building and the housing, and the custody of the prisoner, and iiis
food, any profit accrues from the industrial labour of the prison ?

No, there Mould be no profit then.

1717. What is the furniture of the cells in which the prisoners are confined ?
A hammock, a mattress, a pillow, two blankets and a rug, a table, a stool, a tin

for food, salt cup, spoon, a wooden fork, two hair combs, a brush, and a sweeping
brush ; I think that would embrace the whole.

1718. Do you allow any difference in summer and winter as to the bedding?
No, excepting that I prefer using old blankets, as being thinner, in the

summer.

W. Muison, Esq.
17th March 1863.

1719. Do the prisoners wear the prison clothing, or their
The convicted prisoners all wear the prison clothing.

own ?

17-20. Are there any reoulations as to the issue of books to the prisoners?
That is entirely under the control of the chaplain, subject of course to the
visiting magistrates' approval.

172). Is there no regulation by which the issue of those books is limited, or is
it entirely optional ; that is to say, is there any rule or principle by which the
distribution of books by the chaplain is limited ?

An exchange of books is made twice a week ; I cannot say that there is any
limitation as to number, it varies so much according to circumstances. If we
have a man of a superior intellect or education, that man would probably have a
larger number of books with him than a man of inferior mind, or a less educated
man.

1 722. Do you regard books as an indulgence, or do you regard them as part of
the normal and ordinary business of the prison ?

We consider them as quite belonging to the ordinary system of the prison.

'1 723. Therefore you would not be prepared to deny books to re-couA'icted
prisoners r

Certainly I would not.

1 724. You would consider them as part of the instruction ?
I should.

1725. Are you aware, from your own experience, whether workhouse offences
are committed in any of the neighbouring unions in order tojget admittance to the
prison r

Very rarely indeed ; we occasionally may have a half-witted man committed to
us from the workhouse under such circumstances, but they are very isolated cases.
Very few are committed to us from the workhouse ; we had one very recently,
only six weeks or two months ago.

1726. Can you state the number of re-commitments to your gaol?

\ es ; 1 think that that is the weakest point of our system. 1 have an account
(37.5.) x2 here

164 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Tf-. Miisson, Esq. Jiere of committals from the commeuccment of the separate system and of our re-
i7tb March i86c! committals also. In 1845, before our separate system commenced, our com-

mittals amounted to 1,235; in 1846, when wo had commenced our system, the

nur.iberwas reduced to 710; in 1847, 594; in 1848, G90 ; in 1849, 682 ; in
1850,552; in 1851, 602; in 1852, 553; in 1853, 441 ; in 1854, 546; in 1855,
520; in 1856, 461 ; in 1857, 540; in 1858, 536; in 1859, 435 ; in 1860, 379,
which is, our lowest number; in 1861, 470 ; in 1862, 578. And our population,
1 may as well add, is nearly 170,000 in the county, apart Irom the boroug-h.

1727. The Committee may infer from those figures that, as far as committals
are concerned, there has been a very considerable diminution of late years ?

Yes, more than half.

1728. Will you be good enough to state what the facts are with regard to re-
committals .'

In 1845 there were 251 ; in 1846, 165 ; in 1847, 158 ; in 1848, 156 ; in 1849,
153; in 1850, 138; in 1851, 153; in 1852, 149; in 1853, 111 ; in 1854, 1.37;
in 1855, 125; in 1850, 112; in 1857, 131; in 1858, 139; in 1859, 104;
in 1860, 118: in 1861, 122; in 1862, 162.

i 729. It would appear from those figures there has been a very slight diminution
in the amount of re-committals ?

There has been a diminution of one-third ; 251 as against 162.

1730. Are the majority of those re-committals after having been convicted
once or twice, or do they run to greater lengths ?

'We have some run to greater lengths ; generally, I think, they are once or twice
convicted, but I cannot speak quite positively upon that.

1731. Do ^ou not consider that the re-committals bear rather a larger propor-
tion than ought to be the case w-ere the system very deterrent to criminals.^

That is a difficult question to answer. I am disposed to think that, sup-
posing we could reduce the numbers very materially indeed, and the "hole of
tho^^e numbers had been committed before, it would be a proof that the gaol
■was deterring, because there would be no fresh committals to us ; still, I admit
that the number of re-committals is a point that often is rather puzzling to me ;
at the same time 1 may say that they consist chiefly of triflini^- offences, or
such, for instance, as sliuht day-poaching cases. A case occurred the other
dav of two men, who wen^ brothers, who had been both probably twice or three
times committed before ; they were committed for day-poaching, and they were
ordered to be imprisoned, or to pay a fine, a very heavy fine indeed ; 1 think
the two men had to pay 12 l. within \s. Gd., and these men came to prison, and
of course they would be numbered amongst our re-commitments ; but no sooner
■were they in prison than one of them applied to be allowed to write to his wife,
and lather than stay in prison, they both paid the money that ni^ht. Then, in
addition to these, cases of assaults, and of drunkeimess for which there is no hard
labour, constantly recur, and such are all considered as re-committals.

173'j. Therefore, the inference from your evidence would b;, that, deducting
the cases of drunkenness and assaults, such as you have described, and of poaching,
the real re-committals to prison constitute a small number in proportion to the
total ?

Yes, they would be much smaller than these numbers represent.

1733. Is it your habit to communicate with prisoners on their discharge, or do
you ascertain ^hat their feelings have been with regard to the system to which they
have been subjected .'

Not so much of late as it used to be formerly ; at one time I took very great
interest in the matter ; every man was brought before me, and I examined him
before he left the prison.

1734. Do you believe that prisoners canvass very freely amongst themselves
the merits or demerits, in their eyes, of jiarticular jirisons ?

We do not know that of ourselves ; we hear of it. Perliaps I could best
illustrate the effect of the prison by a case which has been recently told me by a
solicitor, the clerk to one of the petty sessional divisions, at our last Epiphany
sessions: the circumstance occurred on the borders of Leicestershire and the

adjoining

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 165

adjoining- connty : a man was convicted of jioacliing-, was sentenced to be ini- ir. Musson, Esq.

prisoned with hard hibour, or to pay a fine ; he w-as sentenced to a neighbouring-

county prison, and not to Leicester, and on hearing his sentence he said, " Oh, I '7'^ - "''t' '^ '3-
will serve my time in that prison ; if it had been Leicester, I would have paid."'

1735. Lord Sfexcard.] You stated to the Committee just now, that for some
years yon made inquiries into the effects of prison discipline ; but that for some
years past you have ceased to do so. Will you tell the Committee -why you
ceased to do so ?

There was a Commission of Inquiry sent down by tlie Secretary of State to
investigate the conduct of the officers in the treatment of prisoners in Leicester
Gaol some years ago, and it gave me such a distaste for putting myself prominently
forward in any matters connected with prison discipline, that I was determined to
cease to do so. It was a most unpleasant matter to us all, both to the magis-
trates and myself.

1736. Chainnan.'] Your opinion of the system which is pursued at Leicester is,
that it is, ujion the whole, deterring to the prisoners?

Yes.

1737. And that is grounded upon your own experience as governor there for so
many years, and your own knowledge of the feelings of the prisoners who have
been subjected to this discipline ?

Yes ; I have heard it myself many times from the prisoners.

1738. Are the Government convicts who occupy the 140 cells you have
mentioned, subjected to the same discipline ?

No, not to the crank ; in all other respects the same discipline is applied to them.

1739. In the event of prison offences being committed, what are the punish-
ments to which YOU have recourse ?

Our more general punishment is the light cell, the prisoner being confined in
his own cell, upon bread and water. Occasionally we use the dark cell, and
occasionally we flog.

1 740. Will you state what your experience has been with regard to corporal
punishment ?

There is no punishment so effective. There cannot be a question about that.

1741. Have you frequently found it necessary to repeat corporal punishment
for the same oti'ence r

No ; it may, and no doubt has happened, but I do not at this moment remember
a case.

1742. Earl of Dudley.'] Once is found to be quite sufficient, is it not?

Yes, as a rule, it is. We have occasionally had desperate men, who have told
the magistrates that they did not care about flogging, and have set us all at
defiance. Our rule in flogging is, to put a leather collar round the man's neck, so as
to prevent the whip catching him there. I have said to the officer flogging him,
" You must flog the man in one place, keep the whip in one place, because
the n::agislrates have determined to flog him again if he commits himself;" and
the man has never been flogged again after that. One punishment has always
proved effective. I had one man amongst the Government convicts, a ticket-of-
leave man, and a most insubordinate man. He smashed everytiiing m his cell.
I do not know how many times he has been before the visiting magistrates for
misconduct, and a short time ago he was flogged. The magistrates said it was
impossible for them to overlook the matter ; he had three dozen ; and he has
never been reported since. The following case approached very closely to a second
punishment. A boy about a fortnight since, was determined not to work at the
crank. He and his brother had been with us, at different times, ever since ahnost
infants. He was birched, and after he was birched he was idle for two days ; I said
to him, "• The magistrates will not allow yon to continue in idleness; they will
flog you on your back the ne.xt time. He was subdued at ouce, and he did his
work after that. lie went down to the magistrates a few days ago, and told
them that if they would allow his misconduct to be looked over, he would always
do his work in future ; and he has done so.

1743. That was simply from the fear of being flogged on the back ?
Yes.

(37. 0.) X 3 1 744. Chairman.\

166 iJINUTKS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

W.Musscn,Eiq. ^'"^4- Chuirman.] Do you believe that with those two classes, juvenile of-

' ' fenders, and men who have been frequeHtly re-convicted, and are of a very har-

17th March 1863. dened character, flogging is the punisliment' which is most effective "^
I do.

1745- I" fact your evidence woukl show that it is almost invariably deterrino- ?

\ es, and tliat is also the opinion of our visiting justices, for the matter has
been discussed by them, and one, if not more, has said that he never remembered
an instance of flogging being repeated.

1 746. Are not some of your prisoners locked up in their cells ?

They are in their cells the whole day, excepting when they are taken out to
chapel, to exercise, &c. They rise at six in the morning in the summer and
winter, and retire to rest at 10.

1747. Eight hours being the allowance of sleep ?
Yes.

174S. Is that, in your opinion, sufficient?
Quite.

] 74g. Have you never had any comjjjaints to the insufficiency of it ?

No.'

1 750. On what do they sleep ?

They have a hammock, a mattress, two blankets and a rug.

1 75 1 . Do you have recourse, in any instance, to the guard-bed, a simple
board r

No, excepting in the refractory cells.

1752. Earl 0^ Dudley ^^ In winter how is the time from dark to 10 o'clock
filled up ?

The county prisoners work until 9 o'clock, and then are allowed one hour to
read.

1 753. I understand you to say distinctly that even in the case of those per-
forming hard labour a certain amount of industrial work is done besides the
teaching ?

Yes.

17,54. Is the teaching voluntary or compulsory?

Their attendance at school is voluntary ; but the crank is a species of labour
which makes them all volunteer for school; I never had a case to the contrary.

1 755. Does every man who comes into your gaol more or less learn then while
he is there according to his capacity ?
We endeavour to teach him.

1756. Lord Jl'odehoiise.'] Are prisoners who are in for very short terms, such as
a w eek or ten days, employed in industrial labour r
No, they are not, beyond one hour per day.

17.57. Lord President.'] You have given the Committee one instance, and we
have heard from another witness that the reputation of Leicester Gaol has a deter-
ring effect ; can you give the Committee any reason why you think it is more
deterring tlian some other prisons ?

I think that our system of discipline is very strict; we never allow the separate
system to be broken through on any consideration; the prisoners are in separate
cells ; they are exercised in separate yards, and they have separate stalls at chapel ;
and 1 may say that when they arc taken up to be tried in court, they go in separate
partitions in the waggon, and are arraigned separately.

17.58. Earl of Dudley.] Is not the separation relaxed when they are with the
schoolmaster in class .'

No, they are separated then.

1 75y. Do they not sit at the same table r

No ; [hey arc in the chapel in separate stalls ; we use the chapel as a school-
room.

1760. Lord

SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE.

167

1760. Lord President.] Do you think that the principal element of deterring W. Musson, Esq.
them is the completeness of the separate system ? -

I think that the separate system conjoined with the hard labonr is a very J/th^^arc 3.

powerful element.

1 76 1. Do you consider your hard labour harder than is usually the case in
other j)risons ?

I believe thai the crank labour has been discountenanced so entirely, that it is
scarcely practised in apy prison in England. It may be in use at Northampton,
but 1 am not certain of that. The prison inspectors have set their faces against
it entirely as an irritating and useless labour.

1 76'2. Earl of Dudteii.'] Does your experience as a governor confirm that ?

Certainly not. The'inspectors and I do not agree upon that point. We have
had very long arguments upon the subject, but I am satisfied their theory is unsound.

17G3. Lord President.'] Do you think it superior to the treadwheel ?

I ought not to say so, as I have had no experience wilh the treadwheel. 1 think
the treadwheel is difficult to equalize, and that if you put four men upon the
treadwheel, the labour will be unequal.

1764. Earl of DudleijP\ Is not the treadwheel the only compulsory labour, and
cannot a man shirk his work more when he uses the crank ?
Not unless he is determined to be punished.

1 765. But he can take more or loss time about it, can he not ?
No ; he is made to do his work in a given time.

1766. And that is hard labour if done in a given time ?
Yes.

1767. Earl Cathcari.] Do vou separate the women as well as the men ?
Yes.

1768. With regard to the washing, how is that managed?
They have separate washhouses.

1769. Earl of Romjzey.^ You mean one house with different compartments ?
Yes.

1 770. Lord IVode/ioiise.] Are they washing cells ?

Yes, they are of wood ; and the women are all separated the same as they would
be in their cells, only in smaller compartments.

1 77 1. Chairman.'] Do you carry out the system of separation at chapel ?
Yes.

1772. Is every prisoner in chapel separated from his fellow prisoners by means
of compartments ?

He is.

1773. Has that arrangement, in your opinion, been attended with advantage ?
Yes.

1774. Are you of opinion that if those separations were removed, any evil would
result either in the way of communication passing between prisoner and prisoner,
or otherwise r

I am of that opinion certainly.

1775. Do you find that, practically speaking, much communication passes now?
No.

177G.
Yes.

Are the separations painted .'

1 777. How many officers are on guard in chapel ?

Seven or eight usually ; but the numbers vary a little, according to their duties.

1778. Are you uuare whether the chaplain of your gaol prefers the prisoners
to be in compartments, or would he wish to see the compartments removed ?

He was very anxious to convert the chapel into a church, as many chaplains
have done ; and some short time ago he spoke to the visiting justices again, recom-
mending an alteration. 1 then said 1 should like to have the thing settled one way
or the other, because I was not at all pleased with the pendulum kind of work

(.37. 5.) X 4 about

16S MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

;r- Miitson, Esq. fibout it. lie then wrote to some chaplains to inquire as to how it had answered,

and I believe the answer he received from one chaplain, where the stalls had

171I1 March 1863. jjgg,^ discontinued, so satisfied him that it would be an injudicious change, that he
~~ withdrew his representations from the magistrates, and now is quite satisfied that
the stalls are preferable to an open cha]iel.

1779. Fi'om your experience of the matter, you would, so far as you are con-
cerned, refuse your acquiescence to any abolition of compartments ?

Most decidedly ; if there is any attempt at communication I can know what
that communication is ; I would venture to say that if I were at home this day,
supposing any communication had taken place, an officer would be almost sure to
report the men when they came out of chapel, and would tell me every word
they had said. It has occurred over and over again that an officer has reported a
man for talking, and when the man has denied it, I have said to the officer, " You
are quite clear that you are not mistaken ; tell me what he said ; " and he has
told me in the presence of the prisoner.

1 780. Do the women attend chapel at the same time as the men ?

Yes.

1781. In the event of sudden illness or fainting, how are the prisoners, whether
male or female, removed ?

We move them out of the stalls as quietly as possible.

1 782. Have you ever found any practical inconvenience to result from their
removal ?

There is a little interruption to the service, but the inconvenience is so trifling,
that I do not think it worth a thought.

1783. Earl oi Dudley.'] They do not take to fainting as a feint, do they?
No, I think not ; it may be so occasionally, but it is very rare.

1 784. Marquess of Salisbury.'] Is the fainting a matter of frequent occurrence ?
No, very rare indeed.

1785. Chairmau.] In your opinion the advantage of separation far outweighs
any inconveniences which may result from it ?

Yes, I think so.

1786. Lord JVodchoiise.] Do you ever find that prisoners when confined for
long periods in sejiarate cells suffer at all mentally from the separation }

There arc a great variety of minds, and it does not influence all alike.

1787. Do you think that they suffer more than it is desirable that they should
suffer ?

I should say, as a rule, that they do not.

1788. Do you find it so in exceptional cases ?

AV e have a i'ew exceptional cases, but I am afraid that some of them I could
not speak very positively about; I am in very considerable doubt whether there
is not simulation ; the notion that separation produces insanity has been made so
public, that all i)risoners are aware of it.

1789. What is the longest period for which county prisoners are confined r
Two years.

1790. Do you ever find that women when confined as long as two years in
separate cells suffer mentally more than is desirable?

I c(,uld not, speaking from recollection, say that a woman did ever pass two
years in my prison ; but certainly no woman ever suffered from long confinement
in a cell ; I tliink the longest jieriod that a woman ])assed with us was in the case
of a very incorrigible woman who was sent us from the borough by the Secretary
of State, and certainly her mind was not affected.

17QI. In that case, was the confinement for a year and a half?

I should think it would be.

]70'2. Earl Cathcart.] On the occasion of a suicide by hangin'j,- in 1SG2, there
was a" verdict of temporary insanity returned ; what did that occur from r

The suicide was in 1861. The jirisoner was committed for trial, had been
three weeks in conrmenient, and committed suicide, as it was believed, because

Lis friends would not bail him out of prison.

1793. Lord

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE, 1 C9 *

1793. hard Wodehouse.'] You stated, did you not, that you had not crank W. 3Iussori, E^q.
labour enough for all tlie prisoners who are sentenced to hard labour r „ , ■m~^] gf

We have at times more than 33 Avho have not finished the crank ; therefore '

some must Mait until others are worked oft'.

1794. Do you not think it is essential that there should be a sufficiency of hard
labour, either by means of the crank or the treadwheel, for all the prisoners who
are so sentenced ?

Yes ; in all cases ] should advocate the carrying out of the sentence of hard
labour.

1795. You employ the prisoners a part of their time in industrial labour ; how
do vou regulate the time during which the prisoners shall be employed on the
crank as compared with their being employed in industrial labour?

I can hardly tell how it first arose ; I believe I had the arranging of it.

1796. I mean, what is the princijile u])on which prisoners are divided into
classes or otherwise, so that some are employed in one way and some in other
ways ?

Every man works at the crank before he becomes entitled, as it were, to what
is called industrial labour.

17Q7. Then is he given industrial labour as an indulgence?

We cannot carry the crank labour out entirely, because we have not a suffi-
cient number of cranks for it, and therefore we are obliged to resort to some other
mode of labour.

1798. Earl of Dvdlci/.] But you have the wheel, have you not ?
No, we have no wheel.

1709. Lord Wodehouse.^ Supposing you had crank labour enough for all the
prisoners who are sentenced to hard labour, would it, in your opinion, be desirable
that they should be employed as an indulgence part of their time in industrial
labour, or would you keep them entirely to the crank ?

I should not recommend their being kept at the crank up to the close of their
sentence if it were a long sentence ; but if it were a short sentence I should prefer
their being kept at the crank the whole time.

1800. Viscount Evcrsleij.'] Can you regulate tlie pressure upon the crank ?
Yes.

] 801 . Do you attend to that yourself?

Of late I have not done so. Since the inquiry to which I have alluded I have
given it up. I take care that there is no complaint made upon the part of tho
prisoners, because if a prisoner at all intimates to me that the crank is heavier
than it ought to be, I feel it myself, and satisfy myself as to whether it is so or
not.

1802. Chaii'man.'] With whom does the regulation of the crank rest?
With the warder who has the charge of the ward.

1803. How many principal warders are there?

It would not be the principal warder who would attend to this. One ward
does not contain the whole of the crunks. Tliere are 28 in one ward, and five in
another ; so that one warder would have 28 cranks under his charge, and the
other five.

1804. Is there not, under such ciicumstances, a risk either of negligence or
partiality if the regulation of the cranks be entrusted to a warder?

I do not think there is where the prison is carefully supervised ; the warders
require looking after as well as the j)risoners.

1 805. Lord Steivard.'] Does the warder regulate the crank according to the
supposed boddy strength of the prisoner ?

We used to be very careful about that, I)ut of late we have not been so particular.
We do it to a certain extent, but not to the extent that we used to do, because I
used formerly to try tlie weight of every crank m\se]f. I have not done so
recently ; indeed, the inspectors liave said so much against the crank that it has
quite cooled my ardour in the matter.

(37.6.) Y 1S06. Cliairman.l

170

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

W. Musson, Esq. 1 SoG. Cliairman.'] Are tlie Committee to understand you that, whatever the

lengtli of a sentence which may be passed upon a prisoner, during some portion,

171 aic 1 3. ^^ ^^ij gypjjt^g^ Qf j^jg imprisonment, the crank is always in operation?

Yes.

1S07. y\nd that a prisoner never can be entirely free from hard labour at the
crank during his stay in prison ?

Not unless upon the report of the medical officer.

1 SoS. Have you any means of following the characters and conduct of those
prisoners who have professed themselves to be reformed whilst tliey have been in
prison ?

No, I cannot say that we have.

1809. Do you believe that the majority of prisoners are permanently benefited
by the moral instruction and reformatory system of the prison ?

I think many are benefited.

1810. To what extent do you allow the instruction of the chaplain and school-
master to come in with regard to the hours of labour?

The county prisoners at this time have tive hours' instruction per week. The
school is not under my control at all ; that is quite apart from my duty; it is
settled between the magistrates and the chaplain. They have five hours per week
in school, and those who can write are allowed a certain time per week in their
cells to Avrite.

1811. Earl of Dudley ^ To write letters to their friends?

They arc entitlfd to write a letter every three months, but that we do not con-
sider a part of their instruction. I mean that they are allowed to write in copy-
books, under the instruction of the schoolmaster.

1812. If I remember your figures rightly, the average number of prisoners in
your gaol is a little over 500 ?

About that.

1813. And 33 cranks comprise the whole of the forced labour that you have
in your prison :

Yes, the whole.

1814. Are you speaking now of the county gaol ?
Yes.

1815. You have a second gaol at Leicester, have you not ?
There is a gaol for the borough, not a second county gaol.

i8i6. Chairman^ Have you any means in your system of giving either encou-
ragement or reward to those prisoners who conduct themselves well whilst they
are in prison ?

No.

1817. Are there no classes with superior advantages attached to them to which
it is possible to ))romote well-conducted prisoners?

No, we do nothing of that kind in our prison.

1818. Do you not conceive that that might be an advantage ?

I am not very fond of giving an opinicm upon matters which I have not some
practical knowledge about; I cannot speak with practical knowledge upon this
point. It might be an advantage, but tl.ere would be very few in number, I
apprehend, who would come under that category.

1819. From your point of view it would probably be difhcult to find people of
good conduct ?

It would be exceedingly diflicult thoroughly to satisfy myself that a man was
a reformed man. A man may be a very good prisoner, as many of the old ones
arc, and yet not be reformed.

1820. Lord fVodehoiisc.'] VV'ould you see any ol)jection to make a man's em-
ployment or industrial labour dependent upon his t)ehaving himself well in

gaol .'

iS'o • I think that would be desirable, and that is what we contemplated when

the

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE.

171

the rule was drawn up ; but we are not altogether in a position to do it because of
our limited number of cranks.

1821. But you think it would be desirable as a sj'stem ?
Yes, I think so.

i82'2. Chairman.'] Speaking, therefore, generally, you would be in favour of
the reduction of hard labour Avithin certain limits, and the substitution for that
hard labour of some lighter and easier labour as a reward for good conduct.

I can see no objection to that ; indeed, speaking of long sentences, I should
object to the crank being used the whole time.

1S23. ^ aOyH Wodehouse .^ You are now speaking of long sentences; but vou
stated before, did you not, ihat lor very short sentences you would employ crank
labour entirely?

Yes.

1824. Earl of Dudley^ Where does a long sentence begin according to your
notion ; is it after a year r

Earlier than that ; I think a six months' sentence a long sentence if it is to be
carried out.

1S25. Chairman.'] I presume that there are a certain class of prisoners, such as
receivers of stolen goods, trained thieves, men re-convicted very frequently, and
the whole class of vagrants with whom educational teaching and moral instruction
is almost valueless ?

Of receivers of stolen goods and trained thieves, we know very little ; the
vagrants, I am happy to say, we have nearly got rid of altogether ; Leicester gaol
used to be a red letter gaol, it is a black one now.

1826. At anytime within your memory, was the gaol of Leicester resorted to
for the winter months ?

Yes.

1827. Has that ceased ?
Quite so.

1828. Used offences to be committed in workhouses, for the purpose of gainino-
admittance to the prison ?

I think that has been done, but I can speak more of the class of vagrants
committing offences ; occasionally they do commit offences ; but those who do
■commit such offences do not know Avhat Leicester gaol is.

1829. Generally speaking, there has been a falling off in the re-committals of
county offenders of that class to the gaol at Leicester, has there not ?

Yes, I believe there has ; we have very few cases of committals for workhouse
offences ; and of trained thieves we know very little in our county.

1830. Earl of Ducie.] Is it the strictness of their separation in your gaol, that
makes it so deterrent ?

I think it is.

1831. Solely that?

I would not say solely that ; but that combined with our crank system.

1 832. Do you think it is that which keeps vagrants out r
Yes.

1 833. Earl of Malmcshurij.'] Is their diet less good than in other gaols ?
Our diet is the official diet, the same as in other prisons.

1 834. Lord Steivard.] What is your opinion with regard to the sufficiency, or
the more than sufficiency, of the diet ?

I do not think I have any lault to find with the diet.

1 83;^ . Earl of Dudley.] If you were absolute in the matter, would you reduce it ?
1 should hesitate very much about reducing the diet.

1 836. What do you mean by a Government convict, contradistinguished from
an ordinary convict ?

He is a convict under sentence of penal servitude, who is sent to us by the
Uovernment. —

(^''•5-) y2 1837. From

W. Musson, Esq,
17th March 1863.

172 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

'11^. Mussoti, Esq. \ 837. !From tlic moment a sentence of penal servitude is passed upon a prisoner,

he is considered to be a Government convict ?

171 .larcii 3. j^T^_^^ ^^jj. ^^^,j^ convicts ; our own are removed to other prisons, and other Govern-
ment convicts are sent to us from other prisons.

1838. Lord President^ Woukl you have any objection to state upon what
subject \ou and the inspectors have such very different opinions ?

The inspectors have been very anxious to remove the separate stalls in the chapel,
and also to do away with the crank labour.

1839. And to substitute the \vheel for it?

I do not know that ; they want a dilFerent kind of labour, profitable labour, such
as trades to be carried on in prison.

1840. And to do away with forced labour altogether ?
To do av, ay with hard labour.

1841. I'larl of Dudlei/.] Tlie Committee have been told tbat a long day's work
as industrial labour is hard labour ; in your Oi)inion is that so ?

I should say it is not.

1842. It is im])ossible to enforce it, is it not, if the priso!ier will not do itr
You cannot do it. 1 recollect a most extraordinary instance which occurred

when we picked oakum. The oakum was paid out ; every man bad his allotted
task. I cannot give the exact amount, but we had a youth in the ])rison who had
been picking oakum during his full sentence, ])eihaps a fortnight or three weeks,
and we thought we had given him enough to do, but to show us how much we
were out in our calculation, the last day, for his own amusement, I think he picked
throe times the allotted (juantity.

I 843. Lord Wodehousc.^ I understand then that you do not consider industrial
labour as penal labour ?
[l is scarcely penal Iribour.

1 S44. Lord President.] Is there any other difference of opinion upon any other
subject between you and the inspectors ?

No, they always give us credit for good management, but upon those two points
there has been a difference of opinion between us.

184.V Earl of Ronwci/.'] One of those points, being about the most essential
point in the management of a prison, namely, the question of hard labour or not

hard labour ? 1 1 • n

That is one point, and the separation of the prisoners in the chapel is another

very material point.

1846. Chairman.'] Under what circumstances are extra diets issued .?_

It is a very rare instance indeed that we increase the diet ; an alteration in the
diet for invalids is not uncommon, but an increase of diet is exceedingly rare.

1 847. Is that increase of diet given at the sole discretion of the surgeon, or is
it with your concurrence r

It rests with the surgeon, I never interfere with it.

1848. Does he state that increase upon some permanent record ?

Yes, in his journal.

,84.,. Are the prisoners who thus become entitled to this extra or to this
altered allowance of food upon the sick list, or in the infirmary, or are they pri-
soners supposed to be doing ordinary work ? , . ^ • .1 •

They are upon the sick list ; they may 1)C in the infirmary or in their own

cells.

1 8 r,o. 1 lav(- vou a stnge which is intermediate to the infirmary ?

Ih'at is ontirrlv under the supervision and control of the surgeon ; if he has a
case which he thinks is necessary to be removed to the mhrmary, he orders he
man or woman to be removed there. We have a man at this time and a woman also,
in the infirmary, and we have other cases which the surgeon does not think ne-
cessary to remove out of their own cells, but treats them in their cells.

185.. Does it ever hapiien that a man is working his full time at the crank,
and at the same time is in receipt of an extra allowance ?

No, I have no recollection of any such case. ^^

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 173

' 1852. In all matters of labour and diet the surgeon is absolute, is he not? ff. Musson, Esq.

He has a veto uj)on the labour, and of course the diet is entirely under his

control. The magistrates also have the power of mcreasing the diet if they i7tn March 18C3.
please.

18 -,3. In the general every-day government of a prison, in deciding whether a
prisoner shall have more or less hard labour, or more or less diet, the surgeon is
absolute.

He cannot increase the amount of hard labour, but he can reduce it ; and he
can increase the amount of food.

1 854. Marquess of Salisburij.^ Which do you think the most effective, a short
sentence severely inflicted, or a long sentence with less severity ?

That would be very difficult to answer. I think a short severe sentence for a
young beginner or a boy, or for a man who has never been in prison before, might
probably be more effective than a long sentence ; but I would not say that a
short sentence would be more effective than a long one for a man who had been
imprisoned before. I should doubt it exceedingly.

1855. In case of re-committal, you would prefer a long sentence?
Yes, I should.

1856. Earl o^ Malmesbury .'] I think that the question of the Noble Marquess
referred to a long and comparatively easy sentence ?

Precisely so. But your Loidship must remember that we have our system of
separation strictly carried out all through.

1 857. Would a short and sharp sentence be more effective than a long one
with less of hard labour ?

I think in many cases that it would.

iSj;8. Marquess of &//56«7-(/.] You have stated, have you not, that a sentence
of hard labour cannot be carried out for the full period of a long sentence — say
18 months, or two years ?

Just; so.

1 8,59. Earl Catlicart.l The inspector reports that you have had a great deal of
diarrhoea in your prison. Do you attribute that to any particular cause ?

Yes. The diarrhoea was confined chiefly to the Government convicts, and I
attributed it, and suggested to the medical inspector, that it arose from the richness
of their food ; this was also the opinion of the surgeon, and in consequence of
that, the ox-head cheeks were withheld from the soup, and the men's health
improved. We have no diarrhoea to speak of amongst the prisoners working at
crank labour.

1 860. Chairman.^ Do you believe that prisoners entertain a preference for
Government convict establishments over your own gaol ?

Yes.

1861. Earl ofZ)W/c(/.] Then they would prefer a sentence of three years,
involving penal servitude, to 18 months' imprisonment with hard labour?

I should say decidedly that a sentence of three years' penal servitude is less
in amount than a sentence of 18 months or two years with hard labour. I
think many men would prefer penal servitude for three years to 18 months in
gaol.

1862. It would appear from what you have stated, that in 1862 the number
of committals to your gaol rose again. Can you give any reason for that?

No, 1 do not know that I can ; it seemed to be aliuosr simultaneous and universal
throughout England. It is a very difficult thing to form an opinion upon the
cause of the sudden increase or decrease of crime.

I St)3. Chairman.'] You have probably become aware that in many courts of law
there is a difficulty in identifying prisoners, in order to prove their previous con-
victions }

Yes.

1864. Have you ever turned your mind to that subject, or have you ever
(37. 5.) Y 3 contemplated

174 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

W. Musson, Esq. contemplated any scheme by which it would be easier than it is at present to

identify them ?

17th March 1863. J cannot say that I have.

1 '^6^. Earl of Dudley.'] Tliere is no difficulty if the officers will do their work
properly ; has not the difficulty arisen from quite another cause ?
The bad pay, I believe, has been the great check.

1 866. There is no difficulty in regard to the recognition of a man who has
ever been in prison r

Our officers have no difficulty ; they always identify a man when necessary.

1867. When prisoners are not identified in that way as having been previously
convicted, is it not simply because the officers, for some reason or other, do not
appear against them r

I cannot speak fi'om any personal experience, but I have understood that the
allowance that the officers get is so very bad, that there is an objection to identify
them.

186S. Lord SteiLmrd.l Docs your experience coincide with that of another
witness before the Committee, that the prisoners are generally very communicative
with the officers and with each other as to their antecedents '(

I could not say that we have no communication of any kind ; but we do not
allow the officers to communicate with them.

1869. Lord Wodehouse.~\ The chaplain and the schoolmaster would of course
have an opportunity of communicating with them ?

Yes ; they would have more opportunity than any other person.

1S70. Do you find that they communicate with the chaplain, so as to enable
you to know wliether they have been committed before?

I am afraid that a great many of their histories are not to be relied upon.

1871. Chairman.'] How are the cells warmed and lighted?

They are heated by hot air, on what is called Haydon's principle ; the building
was erected under the su])erintendence of Sir Joshua Jebb, and the cells are
lighted with gas.

1872. Earl of i)ufZ/ej/.] Are they entirely ventilated by the ventilating appa-
ratus, or can they open the windows }

They are ventilated from the corridor, and the prisoners can open the outer
window in addition.

1873. Chairman.] Do you think it an advantage that the prisoner should
himself have an opportunity of opening the window ?

Yes, I think there is an advantage in that.

1874. Does not that sometimes facilitate communications between the pri-
soners ?

No, not with us ; our windows are constructed upon such a principle that it is
impossible for them to communicate, and that is saying a great deal too, because
they will communicate almost under any circumstances.

1875. Do you believe that, on the whole, communications do not j)ass in the
gaol at Leicester ?

They are very limited ; that they do pass communications we know, because
■we detect them ; but they are very limited.

1876. Does punishment always follow upon communication :

Yes, as a rule ; 1 do not mean to say that no one ever escapes punishment,
but punishment follows generally.

1877. Is there any suggestion that you would wish to make to the Committee,
or any infoniiation tliut you think would be useful to their Lordships, on the points
that we have been discussing i

I cannot say that there is.

1878. Lord Stetvard.] Are you so well satisfied with the effect of the crank
that you do not wish to try the experiment of the treadwheel ?

I should

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 175

I should have no objection to the treadwheel if it were to be proposed by the W. Mmson, Siqi
magistrates of the county ; but I very much doubt whether you couhi equalise ■• - g„

the labour on the treadwheel, because assuminc; that anv four individuals were ''^
upon the treadwheel, I do not think they would tind the labour equal ; I think
that one would suffer very much more than another from it.

1879. Marquess of Salisbury.] I think you have stated that you know nothing
about the shot-drill r

No, I do not.

1880. Earl of Dudlvi/.] Have you, in the course of your experience, had any
knowledge of the treadwheel .'

Never anv.

1881. C/iairnian.] Have you ever tried stone breaking as a punishment ?
No.

1882. Would you be of opinion that stone breaking was an advantageous
punishment?

I cannot give an opinion upon that; I think it is a species of labour that
would introduce a relaxation of discipline into a prison almost inevitably, because
you would have to move your men backwards and forwards to and from their
labour, and I do not know wliether you wouhl get that close supervision that you
ought to have without a large number of officers.

1883. In proportion as you change the men from one part of the prison to
anotlier, the facility for communication increases, and the difficulty of maintainino-
order also increases ?

Yes, I think so.

1 884. Earl of Dudley.'] Do not you consider that your number of cranks is far
too few, considering the number of prisoners you generally have ?

We could employ more undoubtedly, but then the question arises as to whether
we ought to have them at all, because the inspectors say we ought not.

188,5. But speaking now, from your point of view, and feeling that forced
labour is an absolute necessity, if we pass a sentence of hard labour, which means
either the wheel or the crank, is not the amount of crank labour in your prison far
under what would be necessary for such a number as 500 prisoners?

Yes, but 500 is the whole number, not the average number; our average number
is very much below that.

1 886. What is your average number in the prison at a time ?

Our average number of county prisoners for the last four years was 196, 175,
1G2, 181.

1 887. Inasmuch as a very large proportion of those are sentenced to hard
labour, are not 33 cranks far below what you require ?

Yes, I say that they are.

i888. And you are obliged to take men off to make room for others ?
Yes, and to delay one sentence of hard labour until another has passed
through it.

i88q. Consequently, the same crank is obliged to be used on the same day by
many prisoners ?

Not on the same day. The man is in his own cell with the crank ; and he has
to finish his labour before he is moved out of the cell.

iSgo. As long as there are 33 prisoners in possession of the cells with the
cranks, no other prisoner can go on to hard labour ?

Just so ; it sometimes liappens that we have spare cranks. Some of the
prisoners are undergoing the remaining portion of their sentence, and they have
passed their crank labour ; so that we have spare cranks.

1891. Are you not necessarily obliged to shorten the time of the crank labour
very much, in order to allow others to come on to that labour?

No, not otten. ^Ve may have done it occasionally. We postpone the labour
of one man until another lias gone through it.

(37.5.) y4 1892. Chairman.]

176 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

W. Musson, Esq. 1 892. C/iairmn?!.'] Will you be so good as to put in a return of the scale of the

hard labour punishment which you have described to the Committee ?

]7tli March 1863. J ^jj] Jq gQ_ j^j/g sa7)ie is delivered in. {Vide Appendix.)

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next.

One o'clock.

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE.

177

Die Martis, f24" Martii 1863.

LORDS PRESENT:

Duke of Marlborough.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Loud Steward.
Earl of Carnarvok.
Earl of Malmesbury.
Earl RoMNEY.

Earl Cathcart.
Earl DuciE.
Viscount EVERSLEY.
Lord WODEHOUSE.

Lord Lyveden.

THE EARL OF CARNARVON in the Chair.

HERBERT POULTON VOULES, Esq., is called in, and examined

as follows :

i8y3. Chair ma)}.] YOU are inspector of prisons for the northern and
midland districts, are you not ?
For the northern district.

1894. There has been a change made in the practice since the death of Sir
John Kincaid ?

Tlie whole of Great Britain has been divided into two districts ; it was in
three.

I 895. Do you take the whole of that which formerly belonged to Sir John
Kincaid's inspection ?
The whole of it.

1 896. Can you very briefly state to the Committee what counties are included
in your district ?

I would simply state that I take Northampton and everything north of that
place, including the Isle of Skye, the Orkneys, and the Shetlands.

1 897. How many prisons are there within your inspection ?

I have 47 English prisons, the prisons in Scotland, large and small, are
altogether 72 ; but many of them are lock-ups, rather than prisons.

1898. How many visits do you pay in the course of the year ?

I make it a rule to visit every prison once a year ; some prisons I visit
oftener, according as any special question arises, or if I apprehend that there
is anything going on wrong, 1 visit it a second or a third time during the year.
But perhaps the Committee will allow me to state, that this year I think there
were four or five prisons, including those in the Isle of Skye and the Isle of
Lewis, that I did not visit.

1 899. Do you consider that the terms of the Act of Parliament, under which
you act, are so fur obligatory upon you, that they require one visit in every 12
months ?

If 1 remember rightly, the terms of the Act are, that we shall visit from time
to time ; it does not specify once in every year.

1900. What are the causes in general of an extra visit to any prison ?

It may be to investigate any complaints that may arise. I have within the
last week received a letter from a prisoner in Manchester gaol, making a com-
plaint of his treatment. I forwarded it to the visiting justices, stating that I
should not be able to go down for the next 10 days, as I did not know when

(37. (i.) Z my

Evidence en
Prison Discipliner

H. P. Voulcs, Esq-

24th March j8(33.

178 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

H. p. Voules, Esq. my presence here might cease to be required. In ordinary cases I sijould

, ,, r „^ have visited that prison to investigate the complaint.
54th March 1863. r & t

— -— 1901. Do you give notice of your arrival ?

Never, unless it is desirable for any special purpose to meet the visiting jus-
tices ; then, of course, I must write to request them to be kind enough to
meet me.

IQ02. Your visits are not at stated times in the year ?
No, not at stated times.

1903. How large a portion of the year does the actual visiting and inspection
consume ?

I live in my district, and divide the travelling as much as possible. I go out
more frequently in the summer; but my visits of inspection extend tliroughout
the year. In winter I am out, say, once a week probably, whereas in the summer
I may be out on an average three days in the week, i have latel}' had occa-
sion to look into that, and I think it was 142 days that 1 was out last year,
engaged in inspection.

1904. How do you proceed in drawing up your report ; do you draw your
report at the time whilst the visit is immediately fresb in your memory, or do
you take notes, and subsequently compile your report from them ?

I m;ike notes for my report; it would be impossible to draw up the annual
report until I receive certain returns at the close of the year as to the wliole
number of prisoners. You cannot draw an average as to re-commitments, and
so on, until the returns are made up in each prison at the end of the year.

1905. In that case the report is framed at some time subsequent to the visit,
is it not ?

That is the case with regard to the statistical portion of the report; but the
observations and the remarks upon the discipline are made at the time of my
visit.

1 qo6. Is it your practice to leave any record of your comments in the prison ?

It is not.

1007. Is it your practice to hold any communication with the visiting
justices ?

I communicate with them if I see any cause for doing so. Aiy practice has
been perhapi different from that of some other inspectors, inasmuch as I have
generally conferred with the visiting justices instead of making a rej)ort
direct to the Home Office, although I believe that in doing so I am not
actina: in strict accordance with the directions to the inspectors ; but I have
foiuid that I get more done by d(jing so than by simply making an otiicial
repoit.

19(18. Do you not, in fact, think that even carrjdng that process one step
further, if your report were to be laid before the court of quarter sessions, it
would be productive of very great advantage ?

I think generally the justices dislike any complaint or any observation laid
before them in print. They receive with a much better grace a letter coming
from myself as conferring with them.

1909. Have you found that your communications with the visiting justices
have led in general to the correction of any evil or abuse which you iiave
pointed out, or to any change which you have thought desirable r

\\ ben 1 have conununicated directly with the visiting justices I have found
geneially that they are disposed to carry out any improvement that I may
suggest ; that is more especially the case in the counties. In the borough
gaols it is different, because the magistrates there have not the same power.
The town council alone controlling the expenditure, the juagistrates cannot
enforce any order which would render an outlay of money necessary.

i()io. Are your comimunications with the visiting justices in genei'al verbal
or written ?

Our communications are generally verbal. They sometimes ask me to put
the matter in writing, in ord« r that they may lay it before their colleagues ;

but

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 179

but I seldom meet a visiting justice in a g-aol, unless I write beforehand to H. P. Vonles, Etq,
him ; there must necessarily,"therefore, be written communications also. ^i~l,

11)11. From whom do you anticipate that objections would arise if your '^^^ "'''^ 3-
report were laid before the quarter sessions ; from the visiting justices, or from
the magistrates generally ?

I think that it places the inspector at issue with the magistrates, and I do
not think it is well received if made as a complaint, however well founded that
complaint may be.

iQiJ. Practically, does the complaint ever come to the knowledge of the
magistracy ?

If I make a special report to the Secretary of State, the practice is to send
down that report, for the magistrates to report upon it.

jgi.'j. Duke of Marlborough.'] Then, in fact, it is your opinion, is it not, that
a report to be presented to the quarter sessions would be better received by the
magistrates in quarter sessions, if it came from the Secretary of State, rather
than from you ?

Not if it should appear as a special report or complaint by the inspector ;
I communicate with the visiting justices, not with the quarter sessions ; I
have no power to do so ; and the visiting justices lay my letter before the
quarter sessions, recommending any suggestion of mine or not, as they may
think fit.

1914. The noble Chairman put a question to you as to whether you thought
that there would be any objection on the part of the justices to receive a report
from you in quarter sessions ; did I rightly understand you to refer in your
answer to that question to any special report as regards any complaint made in
a gaol, or to the general usual report of your annual visit }

I have no authority to make a special report to the quarter sessions : I only
write a letter, making suggestions to the visiting justices ; 1 have no authority
whatever to address the quarter sessions.

1915. Did I rightly understand you to state that you considered it might not
be well received by the magistrates in quarter sessions, if your report was made
to them ?

Yes ; for it could only appear before them as a special report to the Secre-
tary of State.

igi6. Earl Cathcart.] Are you acquainted with the system adopted by the
Lunacy Commissioners in their inspections ?

I know so little of it that I would not venture to say that I am acquainted
with it.

1917. Chairman.] In 1850 it was not the practice for an inspector of prisons
to see the criminal returns of his district pi-evious to the compilation of his
report. Is that the case now r

I do not receive any returns except those which I obtain from the prison
itself. The statistical returns are not issued until probably the same time as
the inspector's report.

1918. Have you ever considered whether it would be an improvement on
the present system if you were to exchange the visitation of your district alter-
nately with another iuspector?

I think, on the contrary, it is desirable that we should know as much
as possible of the prison, and of the prison ofHcers, and of the population. I
think that there is a great advantage in knowing something of the people.

1919. Is there not, on the other hand, some advantage in bringing a fresh
mind very often to bear upon the details which have grown familiar, and which
possibly receive less consideration in consequence ?

The inspectors frequently meet, and talk over any point that arises. I have
now only one colleague, and 1 talk over with him any question upon which
1 entertain a doubt.

1Q20. I presume, from what you have stated that it is your opinion that two
inspectors are sufficient to discharge all the work that has to be done in
England ?

(37. G.) z 2 I undertook

180 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

B. P. Voules, Esq. I undertook to do it, feeling that I could visit the prisons as required by the
Act of Parliament.

J4th March 1863.

]9'2i. Do not very great discrepancies exist, both in the system and in the
construction of prisons ?

All new prisons are now built on the separate system.

1922. But are there not many prisons within your district in Avhich the
systems var}^ ?

I have several in my district in which they have only a limited number
of cells certified for separate confinement, and some of those are certified for
limited periods, such as one month or three months.

1923. Does not association prevail in a great many prisons ?

In several of the prisons. I have a return here which shows, for instance,
that in Chester City Gaol there are only 28 separate cells ; at Derby they are
all associated, but with separate sleeping cells; at Kirkdale there are only 162
separate cells ; at Liverpool and Manchester they are all separate ; at Preston
there are only 168 separate cells; and at Salford New Bailey there are 101
separate cells, the daily average number in Salford, for instance, being 491, so
that there are a large number in association. They are now building a new
gaol ui^on the separate system, at Salford ; at Preston they are building a new
wing upon the separate system, and at Kirkdale two new wings.

]y2d. In the Welsh gaols which fall imder your notice, is the separate system
generally prevailing t

Wales is not now in my district, but it was so until Sir John Kincaid's death
last year ; there was only one prison in the whole of my district in Wales in
which they had any separate cells, that exception was in Merionethshire, at
Dolgelly.

1925. In all the others it was the system of association under different
conditions ?

Yes, it was the system of association.

1926. Since you have been an inspector, has the separate system increased

considerably ?
Very largely.

1927. Do you think that on the part of the magistrates there is a favourable
view entertained of its working ?

Yes, I can now mention that from the county of Lancashire alone I have
received plans within the last week for building one new wing at Preston, and
two new wings at Kirkdale ; and I find it generally the case that wherever the
separate system has been tried they strive as soon as possible to have the whole
of the prison on the separate system.

1928. Do you beheve that the separate system is the best form of prison
discipline ?

1 think it is the only safe foundation for prison discipline ; but it would not
be right to extend it too far.

1929. What are the objections which have prevented the introduction of the
separate system into Wales ?

Simply that they have old prisons there, and are unwilling to incur the
expense of rebuilding ; but I believe since I have given up that district they
are about to build in Montgomeryshire a new prison, which will be on the
separate system.

1 930. Under the Act of the 5th and 6th of the Queen is not power given for
the amalgamation of borough prisons with county prisons ?

It is.

1931. Are you aware whether that Act has been taken advantage of?

In several counties ; for instance, in Derbyshire there is only one gaol for the
town and county.

1Q32. Looking to the fact that many borough prisons are very small, are you

not of opini(m tiiat it is the most effective and most economical arrangement

that they should be amalgamated with the county prisons ?

I think

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 181

I think it would be very desirable in most cases ; but the borough magistrates H. P, Voulet, Esq^

are very unwilling to give up the little patronage and power that they have in

their borough gaols. 24th Maicli 1863.

'933- Is there not a provision in the Act which would arrange for a joint
council of visiting justices under those circumstances ?

I think that would be very dangerous ; in most cases where I have had the
opportunity of meeting them in that way, I find that they never pull well
together.

1934. Is there any objection, as a general rule, on the part of the county?

I can hardly say on which side the objection arises, but the two bodies are
so differently constituted, that they never could agree ; they take different
views. In one instance, I took upon myself to bring the county and borough
magistrates together, and I found it did not answer.

1935. Is it not the fact, that the Secretary of State has no power under any
existing Act to require the removal of prisoners from a borough prison to a
county prison ?

He cannot compel it.

1936. Would it, in your opinion, be desirable to entrust such a power to the
Secretary of State ?

On more than one occasion I have reported upon a borough prison as being
unfit to carry out sentences of hard labour for long periods ; and in such cases
they have been recommended to contract with the county. I would mention
Grantham, in Lincolnshire ; and Lynn, in Norfolk ; the period for which pri-
soners could be sent to those borough gaols was limited, and they contracted
with the county for the long- sentenced prisoners.

1937. But as I understand from your evidence, very little amalgamation
has as yet taken place between the small borough prisons and the county
ones ?

It would be very desirable that small borough gaols should contract with the
county for the maintenance of their prisoners ; but I am not aware that the
Secretary of State has any power to compel them to do so ; they do it of their
own accord.

1938. If such a power should ever be entrusted to the Secretary of State,
are you of opinion that there would be any practical objections or difficulties
in the way uf working such a provision ?

No, provided the county magistrates had the sole power ; otherwise there
would be this difficulty arising from it ; in the boroughs the town council
control the expenditure ; the magistrates have no control over them whatever ;
if there were a joint visitation by the county and borough magistrates, they
might frequently be at issue with the town council.

7939. Your opinion is, that whilst it would be a great advantage that such a
power should be vested in the Secretary of State, it is an indispensable con-
dition that the sole controlling jurisdiction should exist with the county magis-
trates ; is not that so ?

That is my opinion.

1940. Are there within your district any liberty prisons still existing r
There are three ; Peterborough, Ripon, and Halifax.

1941. Can you state to the Committee, whether there is any special circum-
-stance connected with those prisons, or what their condition generally is ?

At Ripon there are two gaols ; one is for criminals ; the other is the
debtors' prison. In the del:)tors' prison, although it is still kept up, they have
had no inmates for about five or six years. In the criminal prison they liave a
-very small number, and they are entii'ely on the associated system, and without
any employment.

1942. The greater portion of the liberty prisons were aboHshed some few
years ago, were they not ?

Yes ; about five or six years ago.

1943. How many years have you held an inspectorship of prisons?

(37. 6.) z 3 I was

182 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

■ ,11. P. Vovles, Esq. I was appointed an inspector of prisons in 1851; but before that, I was
, ,; — ; „^ associated with Sir Joshua Jebb and Captain O'Brien, as one of the directors
24th IV.arch 18C3. of convict prisons.

1 944. During the time that you have held that office, are you of opinion that
there iias been any improvement in the class of persons who administer the
county and borough prisons, such as the governois and the chaplains, and the
other officers connected with the establishment ?

I think that the officers recently appointed are generally a better educated
class, and better quahfied to administer the affairs of the prison.

!945. Marquess of Salisbury.} With regard to borough magistrates, they are
not of necessity members of the town council, are they t
]Sot of necessit3^

1 946. Are the visiting justices of counties members of the quarter sessions r
They are members of the quarter sessions.

1 947. You are of opinion that there may be an antagonistic influence between
the borough magistrates and the town council ?

Ill the boroughs I have frequently found that to be the case.

194^. That antagonistic influence cannot, I presume, exist in the counties ?
It cannot.

1 049. And in consequence, therefore, there is not the same danger of anta-
gonistic influence between the county magistrates and the visiting justices as
exists in the boroughs?

Certainly not.

1950. Your opinion of the borough magistrates is not so favourable as of the
county magistrates '■:
Certainly not.

1 9.5 ' • Chairman.'] Are not a large proportion of the governors of gaols military
men -

In the larger gaols they are ; but not generally so. I have a few governors
now in my district who are military men ; but the gaols in Scotland are not in
the hands of military men.

1(^52. Would you be prepared to express an opinion favourable or unfavour-
able to the emplovment of mihtary men as governors r

I am an old soldier myself, and am, perhaps, prejudiced in favour of them.

1953. You would entertain no objection to the employment of military men
as governors ?
Decidedly not.

19.54. A very favourable opinion has been stated to us in evidence with
regard to the system of promoting men from amongst the subordinate officials
of the prison to the rank of governor ; is that, in your opinion, a desirable
mode of procedure?

I do not think it is generally desirable.

10.15. Do vou think that the class of men from, whom the subordinate
officials of prisons are taken, are a class who are veryehgible for the duties and
res]K)tisibilities of governors ?

Generally speaking, they are not ; but I could mention one or two exceptions.

igif). Would you say that the routine of a prison subordinate is an educa-
tion whi(;h would naturally tend to fashion his mind for the duties of a
governor ?

I think th.at an old soldier having a perfect knowledge of discipline, would
very soon learn the prison routine, and I think it often operates unfavourably if
a siibordiiiate officer is inomoted to be the governor of a gaol ; his old asso-
ciates, the other subordinate officers, do not respect him or treat him in the same
-way tliat they would a better educated person.

i9-,7. Are there not many qualities which belong to military men, as a class,

which are verv valuable in the government of prisons ?

Yes.

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 183

Yes, I think there are many ; not only the knowledge of discipline, but the H. P. Vuules, Esq.

habit of acting promptly and investigating complaints, and having a general

knowledge of character, all assist a military man very much. ^'*'** March 1863.

1958. Do you believe that it is possible, and if possible desirable, that a
governor should be acquainted with the individual characters and the minutiae
of the prisoners who are entrusted to him ?

I think that it is his duty to study the characters of the i)risoners. Of course
in the case of those prisoners who have short sentences, there is no time to do
so ; but if the governor will take the trouble, he may exercise a very salutary
influence over the prisoners by talking to them, finding out the weak sides of
their characters, and taking advantage of anything he may observe.

1959. From your experience of the chaplains as a class, are you of opinion
that they are equal to the duties of their position ?

I know man}' chaplains who have great influence with the prisoners, and who
exercise it very usefully ; but I think that in the appointment of chaplains, the
practice has been too much to look to a man's being a serious and good man
without looking sufficiently to other requirements, such as tact and knowledge
of the world and knowledge of character ; these are quite essential in order to
obtain any influence with prisoners.

1 960. Does not the chaplain very often take some part in the administration
of a prison, beyond spiritually ministering to the prisoners ?

It is not desirable that he should do so. I think it is very desirable to
separate the discipline and the moral instruction ; so much so that I have
always recommended the schoolmasters should not be called upon to make a
report of a prisoner ; there should be a discipline officer present in school to
report any misconduct ; the prisoners should be taught to look upon the
chaplain and the schoolmaster as their friends, and as having nothing whatever
to do with the discipline.

1961. Has it not fallen sometimes within your cognizance that a chaplain has
taken upon himself in no inconsiderable degree the administration of the prison
details ?

I cannot call to mind any case in which the chaplain has improperly inter-
fered. I may have heard of it, but at this moment 1 do not remember any
instance.

1962. Are the Committee to understand that, in your opinion, the province
of a chaplain should be strictly limited to spiritual ministrations and instruc-
tion?

Certainly.

1963. Marquess of Sul/s/mr!/.] Has it come to your knowledge that chaplains
have interfered in obtaining a remission of sentences from the Secretary of
State ?

I have known instances of chaplains making such a recommendation to the
visiting justices, but never jiassing beyond that.

1 gf^4. Earl Ducie.] Are you aware that it is a common practice for the
borough magistrates to contract with the county magistrates for the mainte-
nance of their prisoners .'

It is frequently done.

■ 196,'). Are you of opinion that that is a good arrangement r
It is very desirable ; for, in a small borough gaol, they cannot carry out the
discipline properly.

1966. Does that system, to the best of your knowledge, work well?

It does. It is far better that they should contract with the county than that
they should have a joint authority.

1967. Have the borough magistrates ever come into collision with the county
authorities in such cases r

No ; the borough magistrates resign their authority, they merely pay for
maintenance of the prisoners.

1968. Duke oi Marlborough.] Are there a good many borough prisons within
(37. 6.) z 4 your

184 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

■H. P. Vowles, Esq. your district which )'ou would consider to be badly managed prisons, and not to

be desirable places for the confinement of prisoners ?

24th March 1 863, gome of them have not the means of carrying out a good system of discipline.
■ I would not go so far as to say that they are badly managed ; because, if I

found them badly managed, it would be my duty to make a special report con-
cerning them.

1969. Are there a good many in that condition ?

Not a great many ; but I have not a large number of borough prisons in my
district.

1970. Lord Steward.~\ Have you had occasion to make any reports with
reference to that ?

On one or two occasions I have i*ecommended that they should contract with
the county for the maintenance of their long sentenced prisoners, and it has
been done.

1971. D\\keoi MarlborotighJ] Supposing you found a borough gaol in a con-
dition which you would not think a suitable one for the prisoners, what would
be the course that you would take under those circumstances ?

The course which I have adopted generally is to communicate, in the first
instance, with the magistrates ; and, if I found them unwilling to make the
required additions to the gaol, or to enter into a contract with the county for
the maintenance of their prisoners, 1 should then make a special report to the
Secretary of State.

J 972. That special report having gone to the Secretary of State, what power
would he have of remedying the state of things of which you have com-
plained }

I am afraid that the Secretary of State has very little power to enforce any
thing of that sort ; the utmost that he can do, 1 imagine, is to indict them for
a misdemeanor for disobeying an Act of Parliament.

1973. Are you aware of any instance in whicli the Secretary of State has
ever resorted to that extreme measure ?

I am not aware of any such instance.

1974. As the case now stands, are there still borough prisons, with regard to
which you have been obliged to make reports of that nature, and where that
evil has not been remedied ?

No ; the evil has been remedied as far as practicable.

1975. In what way ?

Either by making additions to the gaol, or by additions to the staff of the
prison, or by contracting with the county. I should mention, as an example,
Grantham in Lincolnshire. I found that prison insufficient to carry out the
sentences. The superintendent of police for the borough was also the governor
of the gaol, and as he could not be in two places at once, the duties of the gaol
were frequently neglected. I communicated with the magistrates, and with
the inspector of constabulary ; the result was that they built a few additional
cells, and ;.])pointed another "governor, leaving the superintendent of police to
his duties of a police officer alone.

1076. Are the Committee to understand, that as the result of your recom-
inrn'"(lati<)ns to the borough magis^trates, you are satisfied with the condition of
all the borough gaols in your district?

No, I should like to level m.any of them to the ground, and rebuild them ; it
is impossible, with some of the present buildings, to have any good system of
discipline carried out.

1977. You stated, did yi)U not, that when you have found the buildings in-
sufficient, vou have recommended an alteration or enlargement ?

That was where I found them overcrowded ; but we have now in York City
a very bad gaol. The men are always in association during the day. It would
be impossil)le from the construction" of that gaol to carry out any good system
of discipline.

i()7S. 'I hose are cases where a new gaol must be built, before any improve-
ment can be made ? _,.

Yes,

24th March 5865.

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 185

Yes, it is the faulty construction alone, which prevents a better system -ff- P- Vouks, Enq,
being adopted.

1979. Have you represented that fact to the borough magistrates ?
I have frequently talked to the magistrates about it.

1980. Have you found them willing to entertain your plan of having a new
gaoi ?

No, I have not found them disposed to rebuild that gaol ; but I have found
them disposed to take the next best step, namely, to make any practicable im-
provement they could in the old gaol.

1 98 1 . Do you consider that any improvements are capable of being made in
that instance ?

There may be improvements made, but not sufficient to satisfy me.

1982. How long has that state of things existed ?
That was the state of things many years ago, when York was in my district,

and it is only this last year that I have assumed the charge of that district
again.

1983. Do you find things still in the same state? — Yes, still in the same
state, excepting that they have a better governor than they had before.

1984. Have you any hopes that the magistrates will consent to rebuild that
borough gaol, and put things on a better footing?

I have no expectation that they will rebuild that gaol.

1985. Is the state of things which exists there very deleterious to the
prisoners ?

I cannot go to that extent ; I merely say that it would be impossible to carry
out there what I call a good system of discipline, that is, separating the pri-
soners at all times ; and I am of opinion that prisoners placed in association
frequently go out worse than they come into prison.

1986. Are the Committee to understand you to say, that from that associa-
tion at present existing, and likely to continue in that gaol, a good deal of
injury would exist with regard to the prisoners themselves, as you say they
come out worse than they go in.

Perhaps I have gone too far in saying that they come out worse than they
go in ; but I will say that I think there can be but little improvement effected
in the prisoners.

1987. You very much deprecate the system of association, do you not?
Most decidedly.

1988. That is the system existing in that gaol?
It is.

1 989. And you see no means of obtaining a remedy ?
The only remedy I have applied there is, that I have obtained a better

supervision when the prisoners are in association.

1990. Unless the borough magistrates consent to build a new gaol, you see
no means by which the state of things could be improved ?

No. A governor wrote to me the other day about altering some cells ;
my answer was, that it would be useless, as I thought, to attempt to patch up
the old gaol ; the only way of making it a good gaol would be to rebuild
it altogether ; they would only tiirow money away if they expended it in
attempts at improvement.

1991. That being the state of things, if the law is insufficient at present to
provide a remedy, has any remedy suggested itself to you ?

The Secretary of State has no power to compel them to rebuild the gaol ?

1992. Should you think that power ought to exist in the Secretary of State,
either to require a proper gaol to be built, or to require the borough magis-
trates to take the advantage of the existing power to contract with the county
magistrates ?

I think that would be very desirable now that the separate system has had a
fair trial. Tormerly the cry of the borough magistrates would be, " It is merely
a new system, and, in order to try these experiments, you put us to the expense

(37. (i.) A A of

186 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

H. P. Voules, Esif. of building anew gaol." Many of them even now look upon the separate
1. »T T o^ system as merely an experiment.

24th March 1863. •! J I

1PP3- ^'ou do not consider it an experiment, do you ?

Decidedly not.

1994. You consider that its results have been permanently and satisfactorily
ascertained r

I think they have.

1995. So that no injustice would accrue to the magistrates if the power
existed of compelling them to build an entirely new gaol upon the separate
system ?

I do not think there would be any injustice in that.

1996. Do you know what number of prisoners are confined in York gaol ?
The average daily number last year was 30. The number committed during

the year 458.

1997. Earl RomneyJ] You stated, in answer to the Noble Duke, that the
results of the separate system had been thoroughly ascertained ; what are those
results ?

I stated that I thought it was the only safe foundation of prison discipline.
It would occupy too much time if I were to attempt to state what I consider
the advantages of the se|)arate system. In a few words, I may say that it forces
a man to reflect; it makes him feel that employment is a boon, and not a task ;
and it separates him from the contaminating influence of other prisoners. And
another ver}^ strong fact is, that it places him under the influence of the chap-
lain. In association, a prisoner is afraid to listen to any advice or instruction
from the chaplain ; he is laughed at, and there is notliing which a prisoner
dreads so much as ridicule ; but when he is in separate confinement, he will
listen to the chaplain calmly, and he has time to reflect upon what the chaplain
has said to him.

1998. The direct eff"ect of being separated is, that the prisoner cannot com-
municate with those from whom he is separated ; but my question was as to
the result ; what is the result of all that?

I consider that the number of recommittals in those gaols where the separate
system is carried out are fewer than they are in gaols carried on under the
associated system.

1 00)9. Are you able to say at all from whence that arises ?

1 think that the separate system has a great deal to do with it.

2000. By doing what upon the man, or upon the population in general ?

As I have stated just now, it gives a man time to reflect, and that reflection
leads to improvement.

200 1 . Do you think that the result of his being shut up in that way, and
having time to reflect is, that it makes him a better man r

Not that alone ; but that and all the other agencies that are employed. Cer-
tainly, a man is more likely to be improved under the separate system than he
is under the associated system, and men have told me at the time when I
inspected the hulks, " If 1 had been under the separate system, sir, I should
never have been here." In association, they become thoroughly hardened, and
they cannot contend against all the ridicule and other evil influencies that are
brought to bear upon them.

2002. Is it not the case that you find that those prisoners who have been in
separate confinement came into ])rison again ?

'I'he separate system is not infallible : I am afraid we shall not find any sys-
tem that will improve them all.

2003. But crime is not reduced, is it r

Crime was largelv on the decrease up to the year 1859; since then (and
I find it most difficult to trace the cause of it) there has been an increase of
crime again. i3ut if we take the last ten years we shall find that there has
been a large decrease in crime.

2004. Do

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE.

187

2004. Do you think that the separate system is more or less disagreeable to E. P. Vouks, Esq.

prisoners than the other system ? o^th March iSC-?

I think the advantage of the separate system is this, that the shoe pinches, 4

if 1 may use the expression, just where you require it — that is to say, a
thoroughly bad man cannot bear separation ; it is a severe punishment to him ;
but a man who is comparatively well disposed can not only bear the separation,
but he can benefit by it, and make a good use of his time.

2005. Do you think that a bad man dislikes it so much that he will not come
in again if lie can help it ?

I am afraid that many of our more hardened criminals cease to care much
about it when the pain ceases. The effects of any punishment upon a tho-
roughly hardened man will not continue much beyond the time during which he
is suffering pain, and therefore it is, I think, if we want to improve a man we
must bring two agencies to work — we must punish him, and at the same time
endeavour to improve and humanize him.

2006. What is the punishment under this system r

I think the loss of liberty itself is a great punishment, they feel it so. I see
constantly in letters from prisoners that they hold the loss of liberty as a great
trial.

2007. Do you think that that deters other people who have not been in
prison ?

I think that the separate system, combined with a strict discipline, is better
calculated to deter than any other system. We frequently find men dishke the
separate confinement so much that they would beg to be put on the wheel
ratlier than remain in a separate cell ; and I think the most severe punishment
you can inflict upon a man of that sort is to set him to pick oakum in a separate
cell.

2008. Where a man asks to be put upon the wheel, is not that because he is
on a low diet in a separate cell and has nothing to do ?

He would get no improvement in diet by going on the wheel ; but prisoners
like working in association, even though they cannot speak to each other ; the
mere feeling that they have a man working in the next compartment to them
does away with the irksomeness and monotony of the separate system.

2009. Lord Steward.'] Do you think it desirable that the separate system
should be carried out to the fullest extent ; that is to say, in school and in
chapel as well as at work ?

Decidedly not in chapel, I think.

20 in. Nor in the school ?

That depends upon the number attending the school ; if you can separate
them fully without, it would be desirable that the separate stall system should not
be carried out ; but generally they have not a sufficient number of officers to
control the prisoners, and the schoolmaster cannot do it himself ; they have only
one officer probably in the school, and if he has a hundred men there, they can
talk freely if they are not separated by stalls.

2011. Do you not know that in Leicester gaol the separate system is prac-
tically carried out in the chapel and the school-room as well as at work ?

Yes ; 1 disapprove of separate stalls in the chapel, and separate airing yards.

2012. 'E.Qxloi M(dmesbury.^^ What is your objection to their being separate
in chapel? ,

One reason is, that the House of God is not the place where they should be
made to feel that they are prisoners in that sense ; but I think the effect upon
the prisoners is bad ; they listen to the service in a very different spirit when
tliey are shut up in those separate stalls ; with others it is a great trial from
the difficulty and constant strain in endeavouring to hear what is said ; many
of them give it up as hopeless.

2013. But you stated just now that they hstened with great attention to the
chaplain when they were in their separate cells ; why would they listen with less
attention to a clergyman when they are in separate stalls in the chapel ? ^

The general instruction which they gather from the service is very di fferent

from the personal communication between the chaplain and the prisoner in the

(37.6.) Aa2 ceU.

188 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

H. P. Voules, Esq. cell. I VTRS Speaking of a chaplain going into a prisoner s cell to advise him and
■ to talk to him. The course which the chaplain takes, if he understands his

34th March 1863. ^^^^^ j^ j-^q^ ^q gg jjj ^^^^i begin talking to a prisoner at once upon matters of
religion, but to make some observation on his work or on the books that he
is reading, and to draw him into conversation, and then take his own opportu-
nities of advising him ; leading the conversation in whatever way he desires.

2014. Then your opinion is, that they are less attentive to the clergyman in
the ]udpit when they are separated than when they are associated r

They are less attentive ; and there is a constant strain from the difficulty of
hearing. I have gone for experiment into those separate stalls, and have had
great difficulty in hearing.

2015. Marques?, oi Salisbiiri/.] Does not that objection rather relate to the
building itself than to the system ?

To the separate stalls in the chapel.

2016. To all separate stalls in the chapel ?

In some gaols, they have a separate stall for each man in the chapel ; he is
shut in with a spring.

2017. Does that always interfere with his hearing the clergyman ?

They are surrounded on three sides, and there is a sort of hanging board
over head, which causes such confusion that it is difficult to hear.

2018. Without the board over the man's head, would the same echo be
produced ?

No ; but that board is necessary to prevent the prisoner behind from seeing
the man immediately below him.

2019. Earl of Malniesbun/.] Do the prisoners complain that they have great
difficulty in hearing under those circumstances ?

I have heard complaints to that effect.

2020. Chairman.'] Do your objections to the separation in chapel resolve
themselves into a mechanical objection ?

Not simply so. I think that we should do all we can while the prisoners are
in chapel to humanize them. Experience tells me that where the prisoners
are brought as they are in Stafford prison, in Chester Castle, and in some
other prisons, into a chapel fitted in the ordinary way of a village church,
they are far more attentive than they would be if separated; and tluy do not
attempt to communicate.

2021. As a rule, do you approve of the separation of prisoner from prisoner
in the school-room ?

It is desirable, generally, from the want of insufficient supervision in the
school.

2022. Is that the only ground on which you would recommend that sepa-
ration in the school-room i

I think it would be better if they were in open sittings, provided they had
sufficient supervision.

2023. Is it not possible in the school -room to have the same amount of super-
vision as you would approve of in the chapel ?

It would be possible, but you would require a larger staff of officers, the pri-
soners are only in the chapel for three quarters of an hour or an hour perhajis,
once a day ; in the school they are two hours or two hours and a half in the
morning, and the same time in the afternoon.

2024. Lord Steward.] Is not the chapel generally used as the school-room ?
It is, generally.

2025. Lord Lyvedcn.] In your district, is there generally separation in chapel
or not ?

No ; they are doing awav with the separate stalls in the majority of places.
Tliey have done away with them at Pentonville, at Wakefield, and some other
prisons.

2026. By whose orders ?

The magistrates have done it in the county prisons.

2027. Lord

SELECT COMMITTEE ON' PRISON DISCIPLINE. 189

2027. Lord IFode/iouse.'] On the recommendation of the inspector? H. P. J'oitks, Esi/.
I think not. The only case in which I interfered was when they were building

the new gaol at Liverpool ; they wished to have separate stalls, and I advised ''^^ ^ ^"''^ ' ^'

them strongly against it. I could do no more than suggest or advise. Some

of the magistrates were very anxious to have separate stalls ; however, there

was a division, and ultimately they agreed to refer it to Sir Joshua Jebb,

knowing that he was the parent of the separate system ; to their surprise he

-agreed entirely with me, and said he would recommend that they should have

open sittings.

2028. Marquess of Salishnry.'] You stated, did you not, that you conceived
the separate system to be a greater punishment than hard labour ?

I think that to a badly disposed prisoner the most severe punishment that you
can give him is to put him in a cell, without any employment at all. A pri-
soner, if put into a cell without employment, wiU ask for work, the time hangs
so very heavy on his hands.

2029. Chairman.'] With reference to the separation in chapel, are you not of
opinion that any partition must be some obstruction, at all events to communi-
cation passing between the prisoners ?

I think separate stalls or partitions tempt the men to communicate, the super-
vision is better when they are in open seats, than when they are partlv separated
by stalls.

2030. Lord Steward.'] Is not one great advantage of the separate system,
that the prisoners do not even see each other, and know each other by sight,
when they come out of prison ?

But how has that been carried out ? It has been found impracticable ; at
Pentonvillc, for instance, the prisoners are not allowed to see each other, but
the moment they are removed to the public works they can see and associate
with each other. But more than that, the prisoners have a language that we
none of us can understand. They cough and knock at their cells or at their
stalls ; they have an alphabet of their own by which they can carry on com-
munications which we cannot understand. We can only hope to prevent con-
tamination ; we cannot altogether prevent communication.

2031. Chairman.] Do not you believe that in those chapels in which the
partitions have been removed, communications pass very freely between prisoner
and prisoner?

Not so much so as in chapels where the stalls have been retained ; I think
that the prisoners are less disposed to attempt to communicate when they are
in open seats ; and more than that, I think the supervision is much better.

2032. Are there not extraordinary facilities for communicating during the
moments of the responses, or at the time that the singing is going on in the
chapel ?

1 have known prisoners chaunt what they desired to say to the tune of the
chaunt.

2033. Would not that process be far easier where there are no partitions in
the way than where there is a separation ?

I think they would be more readily heard by an officer sitting amongst them,
than if they were in separate boxes.

2034. Would you be surprised to know that in some gaols the prisoners have
-spoken to the governor of the gaol, and have requested to be removed from the
stalls, and the seat which they previously occupied, on the ground of the in-
decent communications that were continually made to them by their fellow
prisoners ?

I have heard of a complaint being made by a prisoner, that the man in the
-next stall endeavoured to communicate with him, and he begged that he might
be removed. That was not at all an uncommon occurrence at Pentonville in
former days, when it was first built.

2035. Does it not follow that the communication must be in a much louder
tone of voice if a stall interposes between two men?

When they are in open sittings the officers are brought nearer to them, and
can hear the communications better than when they are in separate stalls.

(37. G.) A A 3 2036. Is

190 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

H. P- I'ottles, Esq. 2036. Is it not perfectly possible for one, or two, or three officers, if neces-

• sary, to be posted on a bridge over head, trora whence they can look down upon

24th March 1863. ^.j^^ actions of the prisoners, provided the prisoners are in separate stalls?
■ ■ The best arrangement that is possible is made with the staff we have ; but

you require a very large staff to watch every man closely, so that he cannot com-
municate. It is impossible altogether to prevent communication; therefore I
would endeavour to raise the prisoners, and not degrade them. The more you
degrade a man the worse he will become, and the more likely he would be to
make such indecent communications as have been referred to.

20,37. Therefore your objection resolves itself rather into a moral objection
than anything else ?

I think it is objectionable, both in a moral point of view, and also as a matter
of discipUne.

2038. You of course have been aware that there have been some chaplains
who have acquired an extraordinary power over the lorisoners ; Mr. Clay, at
Preston, for instance, and others, and that a considerable influence has very
often been produced by their preaching ?

I think Mr. Clay did exercise great influence with the prisoners ; but they
would not have listened to him with the same attention had they not seen him
in their separate cells, and had he not there made the prisoners feel that he
was their friend and adviser as well as their minister.

2039. You are probably aware that during the course of his preaching the
prisoners constantly gave signs of very great emotion by tears and otherwise ?

I have seen such effects produced.

2040. Would there not, therefore, be this advantage in the existence of par-
titions, that the emotion would be unseen, and consequently would not be so
much suppressed, as it must necessarily be suppressed, if the prisoners were
sitting in open chapel, with the knowledge that every sign and look that they
gave would be observed by their companions ?

I think that many prisoners who give way to emotion in that way have per-
fect power to control themselves ; in fact, such signs of emotion are frequently
exhibited by great hypocrites in order to court favour with the chaplain ; I
think that the large majority could control any such feeling, although they may
give way to it when they go into their cells.

2041. Therefore you would feel very suspicious of any great emotion or
demonstration of that sort ?

It would depend very much upon my knowledge of the prisoner. I meet
among the prisoners very weak-minded men, who would not have power to
control their emotion ; but I am now speaking of those who have more power
over themselves, and who are, as prisoners, better educated than the others.

2042. For those who have not the proper control, you do not see any advan-
tage in the partition ?

No ; it is sacrificing the number to the few, for 1 think there are very few
who would give way to emotion. By having the open sittings, you raise the
prisoners, and confer a benefit upon a large number.

2043. Does not that argument suppose that the majority go away having
profited very little by the service ?

My belief is, that the majority of prisoners when they make professions in
prison are sincere at the time," but they have no moral courage to carry out
their i)rofessions, and resist the temptations to which they are exposed when
they go out ; one of the <ireatest trials to them is the ridicule of their old asso-
ciates^ If we had more widely spread over England such institutions as the one
at Birmingham (the Discharged Prisoners' Aid Society), it would do more good
thun anything else. "What we want is a helping hand to be held out to the
prisoner wlien he comes out of gaol.

2044. Duke of Murlhoroiiijh.'] To recur to the subject of borough gaols, are
there many other borough gaols in your district of a defective construction
analagous to what you were stating ; was that the case with regard to York ?^

Some of the best gaols we have are the borougli gaols of Leeds, Liver-
pool, and Manchester. At Hull they have added some separate cells, and

they

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 191

they carry out a better discipline now than they did formerly. It was con- B. P. Vovles, Esq.

ducted on the associated principle when I first went there in 1851 ; and I .' : ^.
, ,. ,, , , . . ^ , / ... J. ^ ^, . 24th March 1863.
beheve that the association had a very injurious etlcct upon tlie prisoners.

Northampton borough gaol is also a very well-conducted gaol.

2045. Have you a large number of borough gaols in your district?

Not a large number. For instance, at Stafford there is only one gaol for the
whole county and borough ; but at Walsall and Newcastle-under-Lyne, I found,
when I went there., that tliey kept the prisoners in the common police cells for
three or four weeks, without any means of carrying out the discipline. The
mayor at Walsall told me that he had brought the matter before the local
authorities, and as they were about to build a new court-house, they proposed
also to build a new gaol ; it would depend upon their carrying that proposal,
whether they sent their prisoners to Stafford, or kept them at Walsall. In the
mean time, they will never keep a man there beyond seven days ; but that
is not a borough gaol, it is a mere police station.

20.i6. You have mentioned some instances where your advice has been
attended to, and where improvements have in consequence been effected ; but
there are a large number of borough gaols within your district, are there not ?

Not a great number.

2047. Can you state the number ?
Thirteen.

2048. Does that include Scotland?

No ; I may say, we have no borough gaols.

2049. Do you consider that the great defect at present existing in the
borough gaols is rather the associated system, whereas you would recommend
the separate system?

That is geiierally the case. The Manchester City and the Liverpool and
Leeds Borough gaols are on the separate system, and they are well conducted
gaols ; I have not the same fault to find with them ; generally speaking, the
faults are more in the construction than in the discipline.

2050. You would therefore consider it very great improvement if, by any
means, the separate system could be introduced into all borough gaols ?

Decidedly.

2051. Especially in towns of large size where there is a large number of
prisoners likely to be brought together?

Yes ; in boroughs, perhaps, it is even more desirable to separate the prisoners
than in counties.

2052. Is it not the case that even where the mayor of a borough and one or
two of the common councilmen may be public spirited and desire to see im-
provement when any of those improvements are suggested which involve a
considerable amount of expense, such as either rebuilding, or altering, or
enlarging the borough gaol, they do meet with a great deal of opposition from
the other members of the Council, or with general opposition in the town
itself ?

Yes ; and to show how strongly that is the case, I will mention that in one
gaol I found fault with the insufficient number of blankets, and that they had
only one towel to every six men. I spoke to two magistrates about it, and
each said, " I will not order it, for the last thing I ordered the Town Council
made me pay for it ;" the magistrates refused to order the things in conse-
quence.

2053. You do not consider that Town Councils are of all bodies the best
in the world to take a liberal and public spirited view with regard to prison
discipline ?

I think they are not ; but I should mention that the Town Council have no
authority in the gaol, it is the magistrates who have the authority in the
gaol.

2054. The Town Council would have to assist in any expenditure, would
they not ?

Yes, but they cannot interfere with the gaol, they cannot order any expendi-
(37.C>-; Aa4 ture

192 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

H. P. v,ndes, Esq. ture without the magistrates, it must come first by order of the magistrates,

and then go to the Town Council to be approved by them as a sort of Finance

24th March 1863. Committee.

no.55. In fact, there is a double difficulty : the difficulty of obtaining the
consent of the magistrates, in the first instance, and then the difficulty of
obtaining the consent of the Town Council to the expense ?

Yes, that is the difficulty, that it should be in two hands instead of in one.

2056. Chairman.'] The Committee have had a great deal of evidence from
different witnesses with regard to the system of liard labour, as administered
in different prisons. I presume that the labour in your district may be divided
into hard labour and light labour — hard labour comprising the treadwheel, the
crank and such occupations as stone-breaking, and light labour consisting of
industrial occupation ?

Yes.

2057. Do you generally approve of the treadwheel as an instrument of
punishment r

I do not ; I think that it is far better to carry out the separation, and to
keep the men employed separately.

2058. Would you state very briefly what your objection is to the treadwheel ?
I just now stated that the prisoners are brought together at the treadwheel,

and they would infinitely prefer working in association (even though they have
very little opportunity of communicating with each other), to any monotonous
work such as oakum picking in their own cells.

2059. Therefore the principal objection is the association, which in your
opinion is inivolved in the use of the treadwheel ?

That is not the sole objection. I speak generally ; my experience has left
that impression upon my mind, but it is difficult to explain how it has caused
me to form that opinion. I have paid some attention to the subject, having
been connected with, since the year 1842, prison discipline, and tliat is the
general impression which I have arrived at.

•2o6u. Do you believe that the use of the treadwheel is too severe physically
for the men ?

I think that very many prisoners are more or less affected with heart disease,
and 1 think that it is decidedly dangerous to put a man so affected on the
treadwheel. A case happened about five years ago, where a man dropped
down dead at the wheel. The surgeon who examined him said he saw no
reason to take idm off the treadwheel ; after he had been working there about
two months, he dropped down dead.

2061. Is it not the surgeon's duty, to examine any man who complains when
he is put to tlie wheel ?

Decidedly it is ; and he is also to certify whether the man is fit for labour or
not before he is put to the treadwheel.

2062. I presume that there are very few cases during your whole experience,
of a similiir nature to that which you have just stated ?

I mentioned that as a solitary instance that I have known of a man dying
suddenly at the wheel ; I cannot say that the wheel caused it.

2063. As a general rule, has not the surgeon the means of ascertaining with
complete precision whether a man is afflicted with disease of the heart
or not r

No doubt the surgeon has means of ascertaining it. I cannot say hat the
prisoner to whom I have referred had heart disease, but the fact is that tlie
man dropped down dead at the wheel.

2064. Was it proved at the time that he died of heart disease ?
No.

206.5. It might have been of apoplexy, might it not ?
It might have been from that or any other cause.

2066. Are you aware what the verdict of the coroner's jury was r

" Died by the visitation of God." It was fully investigated at the time.

2067. Do

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 193

2067. Do you further object to the use of the treadwheel, on the ground H. P. Vouhs, Esq.
that it is a deiiradinc:, and very often an unproductive einijlovnient for tlie — r-
men? » &' ^ I . 24th March 18G3.

I think, speaking generally of the crank or treadwheel, that it lowers and
degrades a man who is well dis|iosed, and tljougli you in;iy fail in improving
some men by employing them in industrial kiboui", still you sacrifice the well
disposed b}' putting them on the treadwheel.

2068. Lord Steward.] Is it not rather the crime than the punishment that
degi'ades :

Yes ; but I would hold out to the prisoner that, altliough he must be punished
for the crime, it is still open to him to raise himself, if he is determineti to do so.

2069. Chairman.'] Are the Committee to understand, that, in your opinion,
the use of the treadwhetl does convey a sense of degradation to the mind of
the prisoner?

I do not think it is so much the case with the treadwheel as with the crank
in the separate cells.

2070. Do you object to the use of the crank altogeti\er ?
To the general use of it, I do.

2071. Under what circumstances do you admit it within your catalogue of
advisable punishments ?

Supposing a man who is employed in industrial labour should neglect his
work or destroy the materials, or be guilty of any misconduct of that sort, I
would then make him feel that he has further lowered himself, and I would
order crank labour as a punishment for that misconduct.

2072. Therefore, the Comntiittee are to understand that you would employ
the crank and treadwheel, if at all, simply as a punishment for the offences
committed in prison ?

I think the treadwheel has its advantages in cases of men who are committed
for short periods, and who cannot well be employed in other labour ; for
instance, in an associated prison, where they have no ])Ower of separating the
prisoners, it is better to employ them on the wheel, than to employ them in
picking oakum in association. If they could make them pick oakum in separate
confinement, it would be different.

2073. What do you mean by a short sentence ?
Under one month.

2074. 'J'herefore, are the Committee to understand that you would employ the
treadwheel simply for prisoners sentenced under one month, and that you would
never employ the crank at all except as a punishment for prison offences ?

That is so.

2075. The Committee would wish to understand whether, the treadwheel
being, in your opiuion, a degrading punishment, it is desirable to inflict that
degradation upon a short sentence prisoner who may be supposed to be in prison
for a venial offence, in preference to a long sentence prisoner who is probably
■committed for some great outrage ?

That is nut in any way my meaning. I have a strong objection to all short
sentences. I think that they do more harm than good. I think a prisoner is
degraded, and has the taint of the prison put upon him for an offence of a
very minor character, which would perhaps be better dealt with in some other
way ; but with regard to prisoners when they ai-e committed under a month,
I would recommend that they should be put to the treadwheel simply because
there is no other way of employing them.

2076. What is the shortest sentence that you would admit of, in your view ?
It is very ditiicult for me to lay down a rule as to that, but I think that

short sentences generally do more harm than good.

2077. Speaking generally, what is the shortest sentence which the Committee
are to understand you to allude to 'i

Under a couple of months you can gain no influence over a prisoner. I

think that the first object in sending a man to prison should be punishment,

(37. (i.) B B the

194 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

H. P. Vuules, Esq. the discipline ought to be severe, and a month is too short a sentence altogether.

If he is deserving of being sent to prison, I would give him severe punishment,

24th March 1863. ^^^^^ ^^ ^j^^ ^.^^^-^g j^j^^^g j would allow time for the prison authorities to gain an in-

~ ' fluence over him.

2078. Do you believe that in two months it is possible to reform a man under
any system of prison discipline r

It would he taking upon myself too much to say that a man can be reformed
in two months, but what we hope to do in dealing with that class is, to prevent
the majority from coming under the arm of the lavv again, without supposing
that we can make them all good men. If we do this, we should do a great
deal.

207q. Do you believe that reformatory influences have any general effect
within the space of two months ?

I think they may go together ; if you give a man sharp discipline, and at the
same time obtain an influence over him, you may do good with a well disposed
man ; but there are some men who are trained to thieving from their infancy,
and it would be madness to say that two months or six months would be
sufficient to reform them ; you have quite to change their character, their
habits, and their nature altogether.

20S0. Lord Stexvard.'] You stated just now that you would deal with venial
offences in some other way ; could you give the Committee some notion of what
you meant by the expression " some other way " ?

We could perhaps meet it by fine, but that could not be done in all cases ; I
think for first cases a great deal of discretionary power might be left to the
magistrates to requiie a man to find security for good conduct.

2081. How would a labouring man do that; in what sum do you think that
he would be able to find security ?

If his conduct is so doubtful that he cannot find security, the magistrates
may then give him the longer period of two months.

2082. Are the Committee to understand tliat if he coidd not find security,
you would then sentence him to a longer term of imprisonment for a venial

offence ?

Not on that oround. I would say, " You have committed an offence which
renders you liable to imprisonment for such a period ; if your general conduct
is o-ood, and you can find approved securities that you will not commit such an
offence ao"ain, we will allow you to be at liberty, but if you cannot find such
security we must punish you for the offence, and give you two months."

2083. Lord WodfJimisc] How would you deal with the case of vagrants ;
would they be likely to be able to find securities ?

No • but I think that a wilful vagrant is a man that should be dealt with
more severely.

2084. Would you give a vagrant in all cases two months or more imprison-
ment ?

They are a very difficult class to deal with ; a vagrant is in training for a
thief; and if you can stop the man's career as a vagrant, you cut short a career
of crime.

20 8 r;. When you have committed a vagrant to prison for two months, how
would you employ him during that time?

Vagrants generally are sociable animals, and if you ke])t them in separate
confinement, picking oakum, you would be more likely to produce an effect than
if \()u employed them at the ti eadwhcel ; there is nothing they disUke so much
as being separated.

2086. C/i'iinvan.] Is it your opinion that vagrancy is increasing ?

I think the extension of the separate system alone has done nmch to cause
a decrease in vagranev. It nuiy liave increased slightly the last year or two,
but before that there was a very large decrease in the number of vagrants.

2087. Are you aware that in many gaols it is the systematic practice on the
part of vagrants to be committed during the winter months ?

^ That

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 195

That was very much tlie practice formerly. In some gaols they had what H. P. Voules, Esq.

they called the Vagrant ^Yard, where there was a good fire, and the vagrants •

were all turned in together in a filthy state, without any supervision whatever. ''4th March 1863.
I am speaking of some 20 years ago. Vagrancy was largely on the increase
then; but now that they have been dealt with individually, it has done much to
decrease the number.

2088. You believe that the vagrant at present is deterred from coming into
prison by the separate cell, and by tlie accompaniments of that cell ?

I think he is more likely to be deterred by the separate system than by any
other.

2o8p. Do you believe that, practically, that has been the result ?
1 think it has. I tiiink the number of vagrants has decreased since the
extension of the separate system.

2090. Lord Wodehouse.] Would you abolish altogether the sentence of hard
labour.

No.

2091. How would A'ou propose to carry out sentences of hard labour ?

In separate cells hard labour consists of 10 hours' work during the 24 ; but
I would keep the power in reserve of resorting to the ti-eadwheel, or the crank,
in case a man misconducted himself.

2092. Are the Committee to understand you to say, that a prisoner would
be sentenced to hard labour, but would not be employed on hard labour if he
conducted himself well in the prison ?

I would not go to that extent, because I look upon oakum picking, for
instance, as hard labour, when it is done by task-work. I would recommend
that all the labour in the cell should be done by task-work, and it may thereby
become hard labour.

2093. Would you consider that what is generally known as industrial employ-
ment, or trade occupation, can be fairly called hard labour?

If it is done by task work, I think it may be so.

2094. So that you would retain the sentence of hard labour, and carry it out
by employing the prisoner in industrial labour ?.

Yes, by task-work, with the power of putting him to other hard labour, in
case he should abuse it.

2095. Do you think that that sort of labour would be more deterring than
labour at the crank or the wheel ?

A large number of persons are brought into prison, to speak generally, from
a distaste for labour, and you are not likely to remove that distaste by putting
them to grind at the crank ; you are much more likely to do good by hu-
manising them and making them feel that work is sometimes a boon and not
.always a task.

2096. When you speak of humanising prisoners, are you not rather thinking
of prisoners who are condemned to imprisonment for long periods, than pri-
soners condemned for periods such as are usual in a county prison ?

I am speaking of long-sentenced prisoners generally.

2097. But the inquiry in which the Committee are engaged relates to county
prisoners, and the sentences which they generally undergo are what we may
term short sentences ; can it be supposed that any system will work a reforma-
tion in the character of a prisoner in a period of three, four, or six months ?

Not in a man who has been regularly trained to crime.

2098. Or any other man ?

Yes, 1 think that many a man has committed one act which would send him
to prison for a period, and that the degradation and the punishment woidd be
sufficient to deter him in future.

2099. Would you confine your observations entirely to prisoners who have
committed one oti'ence only.

(37. G.) B B 2 I think

196 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

H. P. Foules, Esq. I think a prisoner who has been before committed should invariably be more
seriously dealt with. 1 would deal with him more severely, not only in the
24th Marcli 1863. sentence, but, if possible, in the discipline also.

2100. In what way would you deal with him more seriously; what more
serious punishment would you inflict ?

1 would grant certain privileges to a well-conducted man who comes to prison
for his first offence.

2101. What privileges would you give him?

1 believe the strongest appeal 30U can make to vagrants is through their
stomachs : but we are not permitted to alter tiie diet, or to give them any
advantage from their work ; with other classes, a man who comes in for the
first tin^e may have certain hours given him, say one in the evening, for
reading and instruction ; he should have more exercise m the airing yard,
and other minor privileges of that sort, which are appreciated by the pri-
soners.

2102. When you say that you would inflict a more serious punishment upon
a prisoner who had committed more than one offence, you do not mean that
you would inflict any more penal labour upon him, but merely that you would
give certain privileges to prisoners who are committed for the first time.

In the first instance, that should be considered in the sentence. This is
not so generally acted upon as it should he. Of course a sentence should be
more severe for the second offence.

2103. I understand you to say, that by a severer sentence you mean a longer
one, and that in the Ciise of a man who is sentenced for a second or any fol-
lowing offence, you would not subject him to any severer discipline in the pi-ison
than that of being emjjjoyed in industrial labour in a separate cell -*

Just so, by task work.

2104. Cliairvicni.] I presume from the answers that you have just given that
you would exclude such employments as stone-breaking from your category of
advisable employments ?

No ; on the contrary, I think stone-breaking in separate yards ])y task-work
is a very good employment, especially for short-sentenced prisoners. The
advantage of stone-breaking, provided that it is not in association, is that you
can task each man ; every employment in a prison should, if possible, be per-
formed by task- work.

2105. When a prisoner is sentenced for more than two months, you would
propose generally, as I understand, to employ him in an industrial occupation
of some sort ?

In the case of a person coming to prison for the first time, I would certainly
give him some industrial employment.

2106. Lord StctvariL] You have spoken of task work ; is it not very difficult
to determine what amount of labour of any particular description a ])risoner is
capable of performing ''

I tliink not. A governor who pays much attention to it can see whether a
man has any meelianieal turn or not. In the case of an agricultural labourer,
for instance, he would not think of i)utting him to the finer work ; he would
put him to prepare the coir or any coarse work, and would task him at that ; he
could not he put at once to the more advanced stages of mat-making, and
tailoring, and shoemaking.

2107. It was given in evidence the other day before the Committee, that in
the case of a man who had been condemned for some offence, his task-work
amounted to so much oakum jjicking per day, and that when his term was
expired, as a sort of bravado, on the last day he did three times the amount of
work, in order to show what he was capable of doing ; would that modif)' your
opinion with regard to task-work ?

That would be tlie fault of '.he officer who measured the task. Oakum varies
very much, according to the state of the rope, and whether the prisoner has any
means of warming it ; of course they can do it much quicker if they warm it ;

but

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCirLINR. 197

but I think that the governor and officers who understand it ought to be able //. p. Vouki Esq
to task the work so that tlie men should not be able to do much more than the

task. 24th March i86;j.

2108. Chairman.'] Are there any gaols within your district in which there is '
neither the employment of the trtadwheel, nor of the crank, nor of stone-
breaking r

Yes, there are several gaols where they have no labour such as I understand
the noble Earl to call hard labour, that is to say the treadwheel, or the crank,
or stone breaking.

2109. In those gaols is the labour confined to industrial occupation of some
sort?

In many of them the prisoners are employed in labour which would come
under the head of hard labour, such as cutting wood to make up kindlers, and
things of that sort ; cutting up large logs of wood is very hard labour.

2! 10. Part of that industrial occupation consists, does it not, in shoemaking,
in tailoring, and in carpentering?

Yes.

2111. And even in making paper bags ?

I know only one gaol in which they made paper bags.

2112. In what gaol is that r
That was at Ely.

2113. In 3'our opinion when a sentence of 18 months or two years' imprison-
ment is pronounced in court for a very grave offence, is the occupation of
making paper bags a practical carrying out of that sentence ?

I have never seen it carried to that extent ; I do not know any case in
which they have been employed continuously for any period in making paper
bags.

"to"-

2114. Are you aware whether in those gaols where the system is a mixed
one, the prisoners prefer industrial occupation to that which I have called liard
labour ?

I should say that a j^risoner would decidedly prefer industrial occupation to
hard labour.

2115. On what ground would he entertain that preference ?

I think it is natural that he should prefer some occupation in which he sees
a return for his labour, rather than that he should, as the prisoners commonly
express it, saw the wind ; I think the crank, for instance, serves to irritate a man
and create a bad spirit.

2116. Lord Steivard.'] Did not you say that their dishke was to confinement
alone, and that rather than continue in those industrial employments, they
asked to be put to hard labour, in a sort of association with their fellow-pri-
soneis ?

I was alluding in that case to men employed in picking oakum.

2117. Chairman^ Then is it the ease that the preference is simply for such
occupations as taihn-ing, carpentering, and others that have been mentioned,
and that where they are employed in picking oakum in a soUtary cell they
would prefer to be put upon the treadwheel ?

I have known instances of that. I cannot say that in all cases a prisoner
would prefer to work on the treadwheel to an industrial occupation in a
separate cell; but I have known instances in which they felt the separate
system so severely that they said they could not stand it. I have known the
same request to be made by men emj)loyed in some industrial occupation.

2118. Is not, in your opinion, the work at any industrial occupation, with
the exception of picking oakum, much lighter than the work at the treadwheel
or the crank ?

I do not think it is necessarily so ; I think if it is task work you may enforce
10 hours' work. The great evil is that the 10 hours' work which we are em-
powered to give is not always strictly enforced.

(37-6.) BB3 2119. Are

198 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

H. P. Voiiles, Es'-:. 2 ! 1 q. Are you aware of any one gaol in your district in which the full

" amount of 10 hours' labour at any occu[)atioii is enforced

24th March 1863. Yes, I have met with several instances. I would take Wakefield, for instance,

where the industrial labour is carried to too great an extent. It is more like a

large mnnufactory than a prison.

21 20. What is the amount of time that they woi-k there ?

The men work from six in the morning till eight at night, deducting two
hours for meals ; that is, one hour for dinner, half an hour for breakfast, and
half an hour for supper ; but those men are required to do a certain task, and
some of them work the greater part of their dinner hour in order to complete
that task.

2121. Earl of AIahn€sbury.~\ Are there any prisons where no labour is
exacted ?

At this moment I cannot mention any in my district, but in the county gaol
at Hereford, which was until lately in my district, some men were in separate
confinement, without any employment at all ; and I had an application from a
man that he might have some employment. If a man is sentenced to, and is
fit for hard labour, he is put upon the wheel, but the men who have been sen-
tenced to hard labour, and are physically unfit for the wheel, have no employ-
ment whatever.

2122. Are there any gaols in which there is no labour at all, either industrial
or vt^hat we call hard labour ?

No, I think not.

2123. In Hereford Gaol it was merely an absence of industrial labour that
you remarked ?

It was the absence of any employment for men who are not physically able
to jierform any hard labour. The complaint there was that men were put in
separate confinement without employment.

2) 24. Did you not state that there were instances there of men asking to be
put upon the wheel ?

No. An appHcation was made to me for some employment the last time I
visited it ; the man was not fit to be put upon the wheel.

21 2.-',. But there was no employment for him ?

Emplovment was provided for him after he made that request.

2i2ti. Lord Steward.'] In those gaols in which there are no instruments of
hard labour, and no means of enforcing hard labour, what steps are taken to
enforce the performance of a due amount of industrial employment in the
case of reluctant or disobedient prison-rs ?

Where rhe labour is not task work it must be left to the discretion of the
task- master, who reports to the Governor ; he investigates the charge of idleness,
and says whether the man has done a fiiir amount of work, if not he is punished.

2127. What punishments are inflicted in such a case ?

He is deprived of a portion of his meal, or, according to the magnitude of
the offence, he may be put in a solitary cell, or a dark cell for a certain time.

2128. Ill such cases is it sometimes necessary to have recourse to corporal
punishment ?

I have found that more often the case where crank labour is enforced, but
there are some eases where a man will not do his work in which it is necessary
to resoit to corporal punishment.

2129. You are of opinion, are you not, that corporal punishments cannot in
all cases be dispensed with ?

I should be very sorry to find that the power of ordering corporal punish-
ment was taken away from the magistrates.

2130. C/iairman.] Have you, in your experience, found that corporal punish-
ment is gen( rally effective.

If I may refer to it, I think what occurred in the House of Commons last
Session, had a very bad effect; the weight of the cat has been so hghtened a
prisoner does not care for it. I tliink, in the first instance, we should seek

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 199

to lead prisoners, but if they will not be led, they must be driven. If it was H. P. Voules, Ef,q.
necessary, 1 would at once I'esort to corporal punishment, and in such a case it " ~

should be no child's play ; I would rather give six, or even two lashes, well ^'^*'^ ^"^ ' •^"
laid on, than two dozen imperfectly, as as it is done now. The prisoners laugh ~~~

at it, not only those upon whom the punishment is inflicted, but the others.
In looking over the journal of a borough gaol which I visited, I found an entry
that an officer had been struck by a prisoner, and I asked this question, " I see
no entry of the punishment, either in the punishment-book or in the journal;
what was done in this case?" 'J he answer was, " 1 reported it to the magis-
trates." "Of course you did so, but what did the magistrates do ? " "The
mayor came down, and told the man that if he did it again he would punish
him." And then this explanation followed : they had called for a return in the
House of Commons, in which not only every punishment should be recorded,
hut the name of the magistrate ordering it, and that he had no idea of his
name going up to the House of Commons as having ordered the punish-
ment.

2131. Lord Wodehouse.] What alteration has there been made in the rules as
to punishment, and by whose orders ?

The other inspector and myself were directed to draw up some rules with
respect to corporal punishment. We did so, limiting the weight of the cat. and
the number of lashes to be inflicted ; those rules we sent up to the Home Office,
and were told that it was not necessary to enter so far into detail, but that they
should be embodied in the rules generally.

2132. Are those rules sanctioned by the Home Secretar}'.
Any alteration in the rules must be sanctioned by him.

2133. Are those rules to which you refer, with regard to the infliction of the
cat, sanctioned by the Home Secretary?

They were sent up to the Home Office by his directions.

2 1 34. Is it imperative upon all magistrates to observe them ?
Decidedly,

2135. What power has the Home Secretary to enforce them ?

He has power to alter the rules, but I am afraid, as I stated just now, lie has *

very little power to enforce them.

2 1 36. He has no more power with regard to those rules than with regard to
any other rules that he may make for a prison ?

No, he has not.

2137. Chairman.] Would you make a return of those rules to the Com-
mittee ?

I will do so.

2138. Lord IFodehouse.'] In fact, if I understand you rightly, this alteration
in the rules as to the infliction of corporal punishment was in consequence of
discussions which took place in Parliament, and not in consequence of any new
Act which was passed, except as relating to juvenile offenders .'

It was at the time of the alteration in the Act with regard to juvenile
oft'enders, but I cannot say whether it was in consequence of the discussion
that took place in the House of Commons. We sent up the amended rules,
and I suppose they would, in due course, be sent round to the prisons, but my
colleague and myself have received instructions to look at the rules of all the
prisons, and to amend them. I have looked through manv rules and made
memorandums upon them ; but when I found that this Committee of the House
of Lords were about to inquire into the matter, I thouglit it was far better to
leave them alone till the Report of the Committee should be made.

2139. Chairman.'] Have you ever seen one of those new cats to which you
have alluded?

I have not seen any light cat. I took some trouble to inform myself about
the cats used in difterent prisons, both as to the length of the lash and as to the
weight.

(37.6.) B B 4 2140. Can

200 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

H r Voider Esq -'40- Can you state any prisons in which the cat has been altered since this

' ' Act was passed?

24th March-x863. ^ cannot.

2141. Lord Sfeward.l Could you easily ascertain whether there are any pri-
sons in which the cat has been altered ?

I could ascertain that and make a return of it.

2142. Chairman.] The Committee have had it in evidence from more than
one witness that the administration of one single whipping has been so effctive
as effectually to prevent the recurrence of a similar offence ; is that within your
experience also r

I cannot say that I know any case in which the whipping of one prisoner has
deterred others.

214:5. INly question was with regard to the individual himself; are you
aware of anv prisoner who has undergone corporal punishment who has offended
again in the same manner subseciuently r

There have been cases, I know, in which a man has been whipped more
than once for the same offence ; but that has been for neglecting to perform
his task at the crank.

2144. Is not that a very exceptional occurrence?
I tliink if a flogging is properly administered, a man will not render himself

liable to it a second time.

2145. Are you aware that of recent years the number of corporal punish-
ments inflicted in prisons for prison oti'ences has fallen off in a very large
proportion ?

Within the last two years more especially I think that has been the case.

2146. Can you inform the Committee of any causes which have led to that
diminution ?

I cannot, but there has been so much sympathy shown from without with
prisoners that it has done great harm ; that sympathy has been withdrawn
from them when it might be most useful ; that is to say, in providing them
with emi)loyment when they come out of prison ; but there has been a sort
of ultra philanthropy towards prisoners, which has made them feel that they
are the aggrieved party.

2147. Are vou aware whether the number of corporal punishments for prison
offences within vour district has fallen off in the same proportion as it has in
the south ?

I think there are very few corporal punishments in prisons, except where
they have the crank labour.

2148. Are you aware that a great reduction has taken place in your

district : 1 • 1

Certainly there has been a great reduction in the number of corporal punish-
ments.

2 1 49. Can you attribute that to any specific cause ?
There has been too much sympathy shown with prisoners, and the prisoners

have been treated too leniently in many cases.

21 -,o. Have vou ever felt it your duty to communicate on that point, either
with the governor, or with the visiting justices of any gaol r

Yes, 1 have seen offences which I considered to be lightlv dealt with, and
have recommended that, for a repetition of such conduct, tiie man should at
once be punished with corporal punishment.

2 1 -, 1 . Has your advice been acted upon ?

It has in some instances. I have never made a special report upon the sub-
ject, but have communicated with the visiting- justices.

21.t2. Duke of Marlborough.'] With reference to labour, do you deprecate
unproductive labour in gaols, as a general principle, as applied to hard labour ?

'i'he general use of the crank and treadwheel I do object to, the crank
more especially ; but I do not see the same objection to stone-breaking.

21.53. Supposing

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON' DISCIPLINE. 201

21,53. Supposing that the crank and the treadwheel arc used for unproduc- H. P. Voules, Esq.

tive labour, and are simply mechanical labour without au}- result, do you object

to that system from its being unproductive ? 24th March 1863.

I do ; I think it irritates the men, and creates a bad spirit.

2154. Do you think it increases the punishment of labour to a prisoner to
know that it is unproductive ?

No doubt it increases tlie punishment.

2155. Your feeling of objection, then, with regard to the treadwheel, or the
crank, would be less if it were used either to grind corn, or to pump water, or
anything of that sort ?

I think that it takes away very much from the irritation, when a man knows
that he is doing some good with his labour.

2156. You stated, did you not, that you did not think that short sentences
were of much avail in effecting any reformation upon a prisoner ; but do you
not think that short punishments may be deterrent ?

No ; I think that a man who is sent to prison for seven days, or 20 days, or a
month, becomes marked, and he is not in prison long enough to enable us to
exercise any influence for good over him.

21.57. Take the case of a man who has not been accustomed to vice or
crime, and who finds himself in prison for a month for an offence into which
he has been hurried, and finds the prison to be a very unpleasant thing, and
the discipline to be very severe, and that he is subjected to a great many
things which he did not expect before he entered prison ; do not you tliink that
the recollection of that month's confinement may have a deterring effect upon
that man in future ?

1 think that to a man of the character your Grace has described, a month's
imprisonment would do more harm than good. If that man escaped the taint
of a prison, and was bound over under certain securities, he would be more
likely to turn out well than if he had been subjected to the discipline of the
prison for a month ; it is too short a period in itself to have any deterring
effect upon him.

2158. When you speak of the taint of a prison, are the Committee to under-
stand you to mean an ideal taint, or an actual taint ?

No doubt the taint is in the crime itself ; but I am referring to the way in
which the class to which the prisoner belongs look upon him. They speak of
a man who has been in prison as a gaol bird-

2159. Supposing that the system of separation is properly carried out in
prison, so that a man does not get contaminated in prison, do you consider that
there is a prejudice in any way against a man who comes out of prison after a
month's confinement ?

I think there is a strong prejudice against him ; that is very much the case
in England. As I mentioned just now, there is a strong sympathy shown with
a prisoner so long as he is in gaol, but it ceases the moment he comes out ;
everybody turns his back upon him.

•2160. Is not that rather the case with those who have been habituated to
prison, and who have been in for long sentences ; because if a man is to receive
any taint in prison, that taint would be much more likely to fix upon him after
a long sentence than after a short one ?

Yes ; but a man who has committed a serious offence cannot go on un-
punished. You could not deal with him in any other way. You might leave
a discretionai-y power with the magistrates to deal with lighter cases. For in-
stance, when a man is committed for trial, he may be bailed out at the discretion
of the magistrates ; they might carry that system a little further, and bind a
man over to good conduct, as well as to appear to take his tiial.

2161. That would always resolve itself into a question of degree ; you w^^uld
admit that there were some offences for which a man must be imprisoned r

Doubtless.

2162. You stated, in answer to a previous question, did you not, that two
months would be the shortest sentence that you would inflict ?

I think that two months may be considered a short sentence.

(3/. 6.) C c 2163. Do

202 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

H.P. Vouks, Esq. 2163. Do you consider that two months would be a sufficient time during

which any reformatory effect could be produced upon a prisoner, as contra-

24th March 1863. distinguished from a deterrent effect ?

— I mention two months, simply because I was called upon to state a time ;

but it would be presumption for me to say in what time you can hope to deter
a man. For instance, in the case of a man who has been trained up to a life of
crime, you may imprison liim for two, four, six, or even twelve months, and
hardly hope to have any influence over him.

2164. Might not characters of that sort be found who would commit a crime
which could not in justice call for moi'c than tvvo months' imprisoinnent ?

When a man is brought up for a crime, his general character should be
taken into consideration in the sentence. I mean, for instance, if he had been
in gaol before, or if he is known to be an associate of thieves or bad characters.
Whereas, on the contrary, supposing a man to be well conducted generally,
and to have been brought into prison, it ma}^ be for a petty theft, under the
influence of some sudden temptation, you may hope that two months may have
some good effect upon him.

2165. There are some offences, are there not, for which the law does not
allow more than a certain duration of punishment ?

I am aware of that, but it is a great evil that we do pass short sentences,
which, in my opinion, do more harm than good.

2166. Taking the fact as it is, do you consider that when a sentence of two
months' imprisonment is passed, it would be possible to reform a prisoner of
the character which you have just described as having been an associate of
thieves ; could you have any reasonable hope of reforming him by any prison
system of two months ?

No, I do not think we could.

2167. In that case would you not lose the effect of punishment altogether,
if that punishment, failing to be reformatory, were not sufficiently deterrent in
its character ?

I til ink the most deterrent discipline you can inflict, especially for short
sentences, is very close confinement in a separate cell.

2168. Do you think that that is deterrent in itself without hard labour?
Yes, if by hard labour is meant the treadwheel or the ciank. I think

picking oakum is somewhat different ; you must give the man some employ-
ment in a separate cell ; in fact, nothing could be more severe to him than
to shut him up in a separate cell without employment.

2'. 69. It has been stated to the Committee in evidence, that some prisoners,
from previous idleness of disposition, are not at all averse to being shut up in
a cell without employment ; your opinion would not coincide with that r

I think not; I have seen some Irish vagrants who would perhaps answer that
character. If you would let them sleep, they would sleep day and night.

2170. Take the case of those Irish vagrants that you have just described ;
what mode of punishment do you consider to be the best to be applied to them
in order to keep them out of prison r

J think separate confinement with task work would be the best punishment,
or for such a man as I have just now mentioned, 1 would apply the treadwheel
for short sentences. I mentioned just now that it was desirable to keep the
treadwheel in reserve for such extreme cases as that of a man you could not
employ in any other way.

2171. In any sentences which are usually carrried out in county gaols, the
duration of which is not so great as in the case of those sentences which are
carried out in convict prisons, do you think that the time of imprisonment is
sufficiently long to have any reformatory effect upon a prisoner?

We have sentences of two years, and I think that tliat is ample time. If a
man is placed under the separate system of discipline, and there is anything
good in his character, it gives time for reformation.

2172. Do }ou think that the system of county gaols is such, admitting, as
those gaols do, both of loni,^ and short sentence;-, as to enable that reformatory
system to be carried out in them in the manner which you have described?

In many well conducted county prisons I think it is so.

2173. Lord

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 203

•21 73. Lord Ste^vardJ] Have you known of any case in which a man coming H. P- Voukt, Esq.
into a county prison with a bad character has been dischare-ed from it thorousrhlv „ — ~

reformed? b t, y ,4th March 1863.

Yes ; I frequently have names and particulars given to me.

2 1 74. And have you been able to trace out a man afterwards, and ascertain
that he had been so reformed ?

In some cases I have inquired, and found years afterwards that they have
been so. I have been addressed myself by a discharged prisoner in the street
in Hull, who is getting on very well there.

21 75. Had he been confined in a prison where there was no hard labour, and
where industrial employment was the only means of reformation enforced r
Both systems were carried on, I think, with the prisoner 1 have alluded to.

•2176. Is the case that you speak of rather an exceptional one, or have you
known many others ?

I am not in the way of meeting with many such cases, but I frequently have
returns sent me by a chaplain or by a governor of cases of men who have been
in gaol, and are now earning an honest livelihood, and doing well.

2177. What are the grounds on which you say that the performance of un-
productive labour produces a feeling of irritation in the minds of the men who
perform it ?

I infer that from tlie general tone of the prisoners on visiting them, and from
what I have heard from the prisoners themselves.

2178. Then you would be surprised, would you not, to hear that it has been
given in evidence by the governor of a prison, that he has never remarked any
such feeling of irritation in the minds of any prisoners vmder his control ?

I should not be surprised to hear it, because I know one or two governors
who are strong advocates of crank labour, and I know other governors who are
equally strong advocates of industrial employment. J could mention goyernors
who could each give good arguments in favour of their own view.

2179. Duke of Marlborough.'] Is not the whole system of imprisonment, and
the very fact of his being depi-ived of his liberty and subjected to rules, and
discipline, and hard fare, of a character to irritate the mind of a prisoner ?

I think not. In the case of prisoners who have been in a gaol where they
have been associated, and afterwards were in a prison upon the separate
system, they have told me they felt most thankful for the separation, and the
opportunities for improvement offered them ; some of those men turned out
well when they came out of prison.

2 1 80. The crank work labour,or even the treadwheel labour, need not neces-
sarily interfere with separation ; both those systems can be carried on, can
they not, keeping separation still in use r

Yes, especially in the case of the crank, which may be carried on in a
separate cell.

2181. Are you aware whether a convict feels in his mind, that there is a
degree of injustice to him, in subjecting him to an employment which he knows
to be unproductive ?

I find, from my experience, that with some prisoners there is no punishment
beyond the crank ; that is the reason they are so frequently obliged to resort to
corporal punishment for the non-performance of a man's task at crank labour.
Many a man would sooner take a flogging than perform the crank labour.

2182. C/iairman.'] You mentioned just now, that you attributed a good
many of the evils under the existing system to the spirit of what you termed
ultra philanthropy : will you state to the Committee some of those evils which
have proceeded from that cause r

It is difficult to state directly any evils ; but I think the general tone pro- "

duced by it is, that prisoners feel themselves to be the aggrieved parties.
They have, more or less, a craving for notoriety, and the sympathy which has
of late been shown towards great criminals has encouraged this feeling with all
classes of prisoners. Even the inquiry into the abuses in the hulks in 1847,

(37. 6.) c c 2 and

204 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

H F. Vouiei, Esq and more recently at Birmingham, had a bad effect. Prisoners became more
7 — T gg insolent and defiant, not only to their officers, but in some cases to the visiting

'^ J ■ justices. In Ireland the sympathy Avith prisoners follows them after their

liberation, and they can always get employment. It is not so in this country ;
I have had frequent complaints from prisoners that the police and others
interfere with them the moment they come out of prison, and they have no
chance of getting employment.

2183. However, does not that state of feeling to which you have alluded
re-act in a prejudicial manner also upon the authorities who are charged with
the carrying out of Prison Discipline ; and does it not induce them, as far as
they can, to make their system conciliatory and palatable to the prisoners f

I have no doubt that it has had that effect upon some ; I can call to my mind
one case in which a surgeon complained of the labour being too hard in the
prison. I met him on my way 10 the gaol, and he called my attention to it.
When I came to inquire into it, I found that there was nothing in his statement ;
he then said, "Yes; but we shall have another Birmingham Inquiry here,"
showing that he was influenced by the fear of what had occurred at Bir-
mingham.

2184. Do you believe that the prisoners within any gaol are aware of such
communication being made by the surgeon, or by any otiier officer who may
take a view adverse to that of the governor in desiring to relax the discipline of
the prison ?

1 do not know any case that I can call to mind just now in which a surgeon,
or a chaplain, or any other officer, has improperly interfered with the dis-
cipline.

2185. What I mean is this : would any communication of the nature which
you have just dcpcribed to the Committee, made either by a chaplain, or by a
surgeon, reach in due course of time the ears of tiju prisoners themselves.

In the case I have mentioned, certainly it would not ; for the communication
was made to me, and of course ( did not repeat it. But the same surgeon may
have shown sympathy with the prisoners witliout my knowledge, and he ma}'
have spoken to them words to the same effect as he spoke to me.

2186. Are the prisoners perfectly well acquainted with any suggestions which
are made for the relaxation of discipline ?

Prisoners have extraordinary means of knowing what is going on. but I
cannot say that they are aware of the suggestions made to the authorities with
regard to the discipline.

2187. In alluding to any relaxations wnich have been effected, are you of
opinion that the stringency of the diet has been unduly relaxed r

No ; I think it is very necessary that the prisoners should have wliat is
generally looked upon as a liberal diet ; that is to say, according to our present
rates of diet, a^ compared with workhouse diets. I have found in many cases,
in comparing them, that the workhouse diets are as good, or sometimes
better, than the prison diets ; but I do not think the cases will bear com-
parison, the one man is under the depressing influence of imprisonment, and
the other is not. The criminal has been in the habit of taking a certain quantity
of animal food, and if you suddenly cut him off from animal food his health will
be seriously injured. The exj)erimcnt was tried some time ago of putting
prisoners uj)on a low diet at Millbank, and the men got hnv fever. At the
hulks, also, they tried the experiment of putting them on a lower diet, and it
was stated to me at the time (it was before 1 inspected the hulks) by the medical
man 1 hilt their bones were "rotted" from the low diet. Those men had been
accustomed to a generous diet, and upon their imprisonment they were cut off
from all stimulants in the way of beer, or spirituous liquors ; it was therefore
necessary, if you put them to hard labour, that they sliould have a certain
amount of animal food ; this was looked upon with great jealousy ; people said
that they were too well fed.

2188. Are you aware that about 50 per cent, of the persons who are com-
mitted to prison are taken from the class either of labourers, or of very small
tradesmen indeed ?

I am

SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON niSCIPLINE. 205

I am aware that a veiy large proportion of committals are from that class ; I h.p. VovIet,Esq.
do not know the exact number.

2 1 89. Are you aware that among the labouring class, at all events in a
certain part of England, meat is hardly tasted once in the course of the week ?.

I think that the diet should be regulated in some measure according to the
ordinary food of the same class of persons from which the prisoners are taken.
For instance, in the manufacturing districts, you find that men gee animal food
every day ; whereas if you go down to Dorsetshire, and some agricultural dis-
tricts, they rarely taste it ; perhaps once a week at the utmost.

2 1 90. Would you be prepared to advocate a variable scale of diet, according
to the different districts r

I think it should be so.

2191. Would not that involve a multiplicity of classes, and divisions of diet,
that would be perfectly unmanageable ?

The diet of each prison is recommended by the local magistrates, and sent
for approval to the Secretary of State.

2192. Are )'ou, therefore, of opinion, that uniformity in the scale of diet
throughout the prisons in England and Wales, would be undesirable )

I think that it would be undesirable ; for instance, an attempt was made
formerly to introduce the English diet into Scotland ; the consequence was,
that thu Scotch prisoners, who had been accustomed to a greater bulk of food,
and not to animal food, could not be satisfied with the small bulk in animal
food which they got in the English diet. The introduction of the Scotch diet
into England was afterwards tried, and there the -very reverse took place ; they
had been accustomed to a smaller bulk, aod more nourishing food, and they
became very ill. Soine of them, I remember, were attacked writh erysipelas and
low lever, from the low diet that they had been put upon in prison.

2193. Earl of Maimeshury.'] Had they been put upon oatmeal ?
Yes, upon oatmeal, principally.

2194. Chairnuiti.] Therefore, you would prefer the extreme discrepancies
which exist at present in the different prisons in England, to any uniformity
in diet ?

Yes. I think that it would be wrong to give the same diet to prisoners in
an agricultural district, where they rarely have meat, as you would give to
prisoners in a manufacturing district, where they have meat every day.

2195. But do not very often men from the manufacturing districts find their
way into prisons in the rural districts ?

Yes, of course, it would be impossible to meet that ; I mean that the diet of
each prison should be framed somewhat in accordance with the ordinary food
of the town or county in which the prison is situated.

2 1 p6. Does not a very considerable proportion of the inmates of every gaol
include men who came from different parts of the country ?

Yes, but these are generally vagrants and tramps, who are on the lowest scale
of diet. In some of those gaols under three months they get no solid animal
food at all ; they get soup, but no solid animal food.

2197. Do you believe, therefore, that it would be impossible to construct a
dietary such as would suit the average of men ?

The danger would be that it would be both too much and too little, it would
be too much for one class, and too little for another. As I stated before, a
man who has not been accustomed to meat would find the diet very tempting
and very good, whereas a man from the manufacturing districts, who had been
always accustomed to meat every day, would suffer if it were suddenly stopped,
as he gets no stimulants.

2198. Are there any gaols within your district where beer is allowed r
Not any.

2199. Earl Cat/icart.] In your report for the year 1862, you state, do you
not, that beer is allowed in the Birmingham Gaol ?

(37.6.) CC3 Yes;

24th March i86j.

24th March 1863.

206 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

M. P. Foules, Es(j. Yes ; but in the cases alluded to ale was ordered by the surgeons on medical
grounds, and we have no control over that.

2200. But is it not rather remarkable that there should be 59 prisoners
jn one gaol at one time receiving allowances of ale, as you state in your
report ?

I took that from the return of the surgeon. I do not know the individual
circumstances, but it was given to prisoners under medical treatment, and we
have no control over that.

2201. Are you aware of the same circumstance ever having occurred in any
other prison, that it was necessarv to give a quantity of ale to a number of
prisoners ?

Men under medical treatment constantly have wine and brandy given them,
but it is only when they are under medical treatment. I was speaking just now
of the ordinary diet.

2202. Does not 39 appear to you to be a remarkable proportion as re-
ceiving ale r

No ; 59 is not a very large number, 1 think, of the total number of conunit-
ments, which is 1,951.

2203. Lord Sletvard.'] Does it appear that those 59 were receiving this
allowance all at one time throughout the year ?

During the year ale was issued to 59 prisoners while they were under treat-
ment by the surgeon.

2204. ^iwloi Malmeshury.'] Do you find that when prisoners first come to
prison, who have been in the habit of drinking stimulants, that they miss tlu-m
very much, and become very much depressed in consequence ?

That varies very much in the different districts ; and as my visits are only
occasional, I cannot know how many days each man has been in prison.

2.205. But you stated, did you not, as a reason for giving them the quantity
of meat and food that is allowed, that they had been accustomed to stimulants
before they were put in prison, and that those stimulants were stopped when
they entered it.

I did so, but my meaning was this, that prisoners, generally speaking, of that
class in the manufacturing districts, get daily a certain amount of beer or other
stimulant before they come to gaol ; they receive no support of that sort when
they are in gaol, and therefore, if we were to cut oflF the animal food as well as
the stimulant, we should find them generally fail in health ; that is what I in-
tended to convey.

2206. Marquess of Salisbury.'] Are you aware of the diet in the military
prisons ?

Yes, I have seen something of it.

2207. Are you aware that the diet in the military prisons is very considerably
lower than the diet in most of the c\\\\ prisons ?

Generally the periods for which they are sentenced are so much lower.

2208. The diet is given at the 56th page of Sir Joshua Jebb's report ou
military prisons, in which meat is entirely excluded ; are you aware that, with
the exception of the prisoners at Aldershot and Devonport, the scale of diet in
those ])risons is much lower than in any other gaol in the kingdom ?

I do not know the present scale of diet in the military prisons, but my im-
pression is that it is not lower than the prisoners receive who are sentenced
for the same periods in our criminal prisons.

2209. Are you aware that meat does not form a part of it at all?
I was not aware that it did not form a part of the diet for long sentences.

2210. Are you aware that it does not form a part of the diet for sentences
after 56 days :

The sentence S'ldom exceeds three months, I believe in military prisons, but
I was not aware of the fact.

221 1. Are

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 207

2211. Are )ou aware that there is a return also given in this report upon JS. P.Vou!es,Esq.
military prisons of the health of the prisoners ? . .. ~ .„

TUi. *U4.* 34th March 1863.

I have not seen that return.

2212. You stated just now that meat was necessary in some parts of the
country and not in others, according to the usual diet of the locality ; are you
not aware that in the army, persons are drawn together from all |)arts of the
country.

Yes ; hut the sentences of prisoners in a military prison very seldom exceed
three- months.

2213. Did 1 wrongly understand you to state that your former answer re-
ferred only to longer sentences than three months?

To prisoners under three months ; they have soup three times a vreek, but I
think they have very little, and in some prisons no solid animal food under
three months.

2.214. Are 3'ou aware that in Class 3 of the Government Dietary, convicted
prisoners employed at hard labour for terms exceeding 21 days, but not more
than six weeks, and convicted prisoners not employed at hard labour for terms
exceeding 21 days, but not more than four months, are entitled on Sunday and
Thursday to a pint of soup, and on Tuesday and Saturday to three ounces of
cooked meat without bone ?

That is altered in some gaols. I think it will be found that prisoners under
three months get very little or no solid animal food.

2215. In your opinion, is the dietary laid down b)^ the Secretary of State
more than sufficient for the support of prisoners at hard labour ?

That depends upon the locahty.

221 6. Lord Wodehouse.] Are you speaking now of the diet approved by the
Secretary of State, or are you speaking of the diet which has not been approved
by the ISecretary of State ?

The dietaries of prisons are all sent up from the different prisons ; they
vary very much ; in one county they may have more animal food than in
another ; but I think you will find that they receive very little and in some
prisons no animal food until they have been three months in gaol.

2217. Is there not a scale which is generally recommended by the Govern-
ment, though it may not be universally adopted r

Yes, and I have always recommended a graduated scale ; but it must be
regulated in a great measure by the habits of the people in the neighbour-
hood. I recommend to the visiting justices that they should draw up a diet
table ujjon this system, that is in proportion to the period for which the pri-
soners are sentenced.

2218. Marquess of <Sfl//s6?/;7/.] Then you do not think it desirable that the
rate of diet prescribed by the Home Office should be followed ?

Not in all cases. I think it is more the jjrinciple upon which this diet is
framed that is recommended, than the absolute diet ; and I look upon it as
a maximum diet.

22 1 g. With regard to this diet which you say is the maximum of the class,
are you aware that Class 2 has been called by a witness, who has given evidence
before the Committee, starvation ?

No ; but class 2 is intended to deal with vagrants ; those classes were framed
with that object.

2220. You cannot limit it to vagrants, because a man may be convicted for
any offence, and the justices may send him for 14 or 21 days; practically he is
not in imprisonment for 14 or 21 days, with the diet of that class, a much more
severe punishment than a longer term with a higher diet ?

I am aware that the magistrates frequently commit persons for the shorter
periods in order to give them the lowest class of diet, but that is done generally
in the case of vagrants.

2221. That may be for any offence against the person, or against property, or

any other summary conviction, may it not?

Precisely. . ,

(37. 6.) c c 4 2222. Chairman J

208 .MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J{. P.Voiiies,Esq. 2222. Chairman.'] Are you of opinion that in dismissing a prisoner from his

confinement, you are bound to send him out in the best possible physical con-

24di March 1863. ^l[^[^^^ of health, or in that state of health in which he entered the prison r

' I think that it is our interest, as well as our duty, to send a man out

physically able if he is so disposed to earn an honest livelihood.

2223. Therefore you would endeavour by means of diet to improve his con-
stitution and his physical powers to the utmost r

I would not leave it to the prisoner to say, " I was so reduced when I came
out of prison that I was physically incapable of earning an honest livelihood."

2224. Would it be the duty of the governor and the surgeon, in your
opinion, to improve that man's physical energies and powers to the^ highest
point ?

1 would not say to the highest point ; I think that no indulgence should be
allowed but simply what is necessary to maintain a man in health so that he can
earn his livelihood when he goes out. I would forbid any indulgence ; and
would make the diet as simple as possible, giving the required nourishment.

2225. Are you of opinion that, in your district, there are any indulgences in
the matter of diet ?

No, I do not think there are.

2226. You do not believe that the dietary in any prison under your in-
spection contains what may be termed indulgencies ?

So far as I can speak from my knowledge at present, if I had observed any-
thing of that sort in my inspection, 1 should certainly have called attention
to it.

2227. Do you carry in vour mind the dietary of Wakefield, for instance?
Yes, I do.

2228. Are you aware that there is a very great variety in that dietary ?
They are trying a new system there which has been adopted for six months,

as an experiment.

2229. Since when have they tried it ?

I think that the six months for which it was adopted must be very nearly
run out now.

2230. Does the variation of the food which is comprised in that dietary
represent the experiments which are now being made ?

The experiments are not confined to the diet. There are certain privileges
attached to good conduct. It was, I believe, in consequence of the report of
four of the visiting justices who went to Ireland ; they wished to embody in their
disciphne some points of the system that they had observed there, and to grant
to the prisoners certain privileges which they might attain to by good conduct.
An improved diet is among those privileges.

2231. Could you put in as a return to the Committee the dietary as it w'as
previous to those experiments, and the revised dietary with the expei'imental
changes ?

Yes ; I will get the return made out, and furnish it to the Committee.

2232. Can you state to the Committee the instructions that you received
from the Secretary of State with regard to your duties as inspector r

I will put in a copy of them.

2233. Have those instructions been varied at any time ?
Not since I have been an inspector.

2234. Are the instructions which you received in 1851 the same as those
under which yon act now ?

"i'es ; 1 received a printed copy of the instructions which had been issued to
other inspectors.

2235. Duke oi Marlborough.] Do you find that your district is well within
the compass of your inspection ?

I have undertaken the district ; and as I mentioned before in the year that has
now passed, I have inspected every gaol, with the exception of five ; my

omitting

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 209

omitting to inspect these was partly occasioned b\- illness which called me home ^^- P- Voules, Esq.

more suddenly than I anticipated. I was going ou to the Isle of Skj^e when

that occurred. 24th March 1863.

2236. You consider, do you not, that in order to ensure an efficient inspec-
tion each gaol should be inspected annually ?

I certainly would not omit the insj)t'etion of a gaol at least once in each year
if I had any fear as to how the discipline was going on.

2237. Do you find that you are able to go all over your present district
with ease and efficiency ?

Yes ; I can visit all parts of my district without difficulty.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Thursday next,

One o'clock.

(37. 6.) D D

[ 211

Die Jov'is, ^& Martii 1 863.

LORDS PRESENT

Duke of Marlborough.
Marquess of Salisbury.
LoKD Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Malmesbury.
Earl of RoMNEY.

Earl Cathcart.
Earl of DuciE.
Earl of Dudley.
Lord WoDEHousE.
JjOid Ltveden.

THE EARL OF CARNARVON in the Chair.

Evidence on
Prison Discipline.

GEORGE EVEREST, Esq., is called in, and examined as follows : G. Everest, Esq.

2238. Chairman.'] WILL you be good enough to state to the Committee
•what office you hold at the Home Office ?

I am principal clerk for criminal business.

2239. How long is it since you were appointed to that office ?
I was appointed in 1847-

2240. Since that time you have given consideration, 1 presume, to all those
matters which would be included under the criminal business of the office ?

I have.

2241. You are probably aware of the changes which have taken place of
recent years in the system of inspection with regard to county and borough
prisons ?

I am.

2242. Will you state to the Committee briefly what those changes have been,
so far as they have fallen under your cognizance in the Home Office ?

The first change was that of the appointment of inspectors of prisons under
the Act of the 5th and 6th WilUam the Fourth, chapter 38. Five gentlemen
were originally appointed to those offices, but tliey have by degrees been re-
duced to the present number, two. The Act under which they were appointed
was amended by another Act, the 2nd and 3rd of Victoria, chapter 42, but
that Act did not in any way interfere with their functions.

2243. Are those the two principal Acts?

Yes, those are the principal Acts, except the original gaol Act of the 4th
of George the Fourth, chapter 64.

2244. Is the appointment of the inspectors revokable at the pleasure of the
Secretary of State r

The appointment is revokable.

2245. What is the salary which the inspectors receive?
The salary was originally 70O/. a year, but it is now 800/.

2246. Not including- travelling expenses ?
No, they are extra altogether.

'■■ (37- 7.) D D 2 2247. Are

afith March 1863.

212 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

G. Everest, Esq. 2247. Are there any qualifications for the office ?

^, ,, — 7 n^ No special qualitications that I am aware of. There has always been one

^Gth March 1863. medical inspector.

224S. Lord Steward.] At present the country is divided into two districts,
one of which is visited iDy one, and tiie other by the other inspector ?
Yes.

2249. And the one which is not visited by the medical inspector derives no
benefit whatever from his medical knowledge and expirience ?

None, but the medical inspector is referred to by the Secretary of State on all
questions upon which any medical point arises.

2250. Would not that rather lead to the inference that it would be better if
each district were visited alternately by the two inspectors, if it is thought
desirable to have medical inspection '

I can hardly give an opinion upon that point. The medical inspector, no
doubt, is very useful in all ca<es where any medical point arises, but that is not
very often the case. The question of diet, for instance, is one more particularly
for the medical inspector.

2251. C/iainna?!.'] Whenever any medical question has arisen, in what way
has the Secretary of State dealt with it, and to whom has he referred it ?

Usually to the medical inspector.

22.52. Therefore, if a question arose at this moment in the northern district,
with regard either to diet or to any matter of a medical nature, that question
would be referred to Mr. Perry's consideration r

Yes, it would, if of a purely medical character.

2253. And tiie Secretary of State would be guided exclusively by Mr. Perry?
Mainly ; I can scarcely go the length of saying exclusively, but to a great

extent it would be so.

2254. Will you be good enough to put in the instructions which the Secretary
of State gives to the inspectors r

I understand that instructions to the inspectors were prepared in the Secre-
tary of State's office many years ago, but I was not cognizant of them, and
never saw them.

2255. You are not aware whether any have been issued ?

I have no personal knowledge of ihe fact. I have been told that instructions
were prepared in 1H49, but I very much doubt whether they were issued.

22.56. Can you put in a copy of those which were prepared ?

I have not a copy with me ; 1 believe there is a proof copy in the office, and
that is the only copy that I am aware of.

22.57. Will j^ou be good enough to put it in as a return and forward it to the
Committee ?

Yes, if I can procure it.

225 S. Is there any rule laid down by the Secretary of State as to the number
of visits which are to be paid by the inspectors to the several prisons during the
course of the 12 months ?

Noni' ; that is left entirely to their discretion.

2251). According to the general i)ractice of the office, has it been cu-toraary
to expect that those prisons should be visited at least once in every year ?
Certaiidy, it is understood that that is the practice.

2260. Taking into consideration the terms of the A(!t of Parliament under
which the inspectors exercise their powers, is it the inference, in the Ofjinion of
the office, that that visit ought to be paid once a year '?

Certainly, at least once a year.

2261. Would you feel it your duty, in the event of a visit being delayed for
more than 12 months, to call the inspector's attention to it, and require some
explanation ?

That would he a (juestion for the consideration of the Secretary of State ;

it has never been done.

2262. Is

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 213

22f)-2. Is any return made of the number of visits and the time at which they G. Everest, Esq.

are paid? . , • ^ , .i • • -.i • 26ih March 1863.

None whatever ; the reports 01 the inspectors show the prisons visited in _____^

the course of the 1 2 months.

22(13. Are the printed reports which are laid every year before Parliament
the whole of the information which the Secretary of State derives from the
inspectors r

'llu' whole, except any special case occurs requiring immediate attention,
and then a special report is made to the Secretary of State.

22(^4. Do those special reports ever appear in the Annual Report?

No, they do not ; they are directed entirely and exclusively to the Secretary of
State.

2 2()-). Where those special repoits refer to some cause of complaint, or some
abuse which exists in any prison, has it ever been the practice to lay them
before Parliament, together with the annual report ?

No, that has never been done.

22()(>. Can you state generally vvhnt are the causes of any extraordinary visit
which an inspector may be called upon to make ?

Th<' occurrence of any unusual event, such as insubordination, the outbreak
of disease, the complaint of a prisoner of ill treatment, or tlie contravention of
some one of the prison statutes, would lead to an extraordinary visit from the
inspector. In such cases he makes a special report to the Secretary of State,
who usually calls upon the visiting justices for explanation.

2.07. Has the inspector the right of himself, ex pruprio motu, to pay an ex-
traordinary visit to any [irison, or is it necessary for him to obtain the sanction
of the Secretary of State ?

He can visit a prison at all times, whenever he thinks fit to do so.

2268. Can you state the principle upon which the reports of the inspectors
are compiled?

No, 1 cannot. I presume that they make memoranda at the period of tbeir
visits, from which they subsequently compile their reports.

2261). Is there any rule laid down by the Home Office with regard to the
practice which ought to exist upon that point ?
None at all.

2270. Wlien those reports come before the Home Office, what is the course
which is adopted there .'

They are laid before the Secretary of State, and he gives directions for their
presentation to Parliament.

2271. Is it the duty of any particular department of the Home Office to con-
sider the report?

No, no duty of that kind has ever been laid down or defined in any way.

2272. Then, as a matter of fact, the report reaches the office, and passes
throu,:;ii the office of the Secretary of State as a mere matter of form ?

Quite so.

2273. As a general rule, no comment is made upon the report either by any
one in the office to the Secretary of State or by the Secretary of State to the
magistrates?

As a general rule, none.

2274. Lord Steward.] Does the Secretary of State, for instance, make any
communication to the magistrates if he finds in a report any complaint?

He has dcme so in several cases where his attention has been specially drawn
to a statement in the inspector's report.

227."). Chairman.'] The Committee have become aware, by the evidence of
several witnesses, that the reports of the inspectors are not laid before the court
of quarter sessions; in your opinion, would it be a desirable change that they
should lie so laid before them?

1 think they shoidd be laid before the court of quarter sessions, and I have
reason to believe that they always were so until recently.

(37. 7.) D D 3 2276. Will

214

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

G. Everest, Esq.

26ih March 1863.

2.276. Will you state what the reason is for the discontinuance of that
practice r

The Treasury thoughf fit to gi\e directions for reducing the number of Par-
liamentary papers issued for gratuitous distribution, and the inspectors conse-
quently, instead of being supplied with TOO, are nov.- supplied with only 50 ;
and therefore they are unable to distribute them as they used to do.

2277. Under the former plan, was it the practice of the inspector to send to
the chairman of each set of visiting justices a co])y of the report ?

One copy, I tliink, was sent to the clerk of the peace of the county ; another
to the visiting justices of each gaol, and others to the governor, chaplain, and

2278. Karl Ccithcart.^ Do you not think it would be very desirable that, if
possible, the inspector's report, relating to a particular gaol, wliich he has
lately inspected, should be sent as soon as possible after his visit to the visiting
justices, to be appended to their report, and to be presented to the court of
quarter sessions ?

I think it would be very desirable.

2279. Do you see any difficulty in the way of that being done ?
There would be none, that I am aware of.

2280. It would be very analogous, would it nor, to the system now adopted
with resjject to the inspectors of police who send their reports to the police
committee in the gaol ?

It is the same thing in principle.

2581. Lord S[e.u-ard.~\ The expense of doing so would be very small, would
it not ?

Very inconsiderable, I think.

•2282. Chairman .] In your opinion, I presume, it would be desirable to send
such copy rather to the C(;urt of quarter sessions, to be considered by the
magistrates at large, than to the chairman of the visiting justices ?

I think that the visiting justices should have a copy ; it would be convenient
to them.

2283. Therefore you v>ould send a copy in each case ?

Yes, I would send a copy to the visiting justices, and another to the clerk of
the peace for the use of the court of quarter sessions.

^.'84. The Committee iiave had it in evidence that, as a rule, communica-
tions do not pass between the inspector and the visiting justices of the gaol
which is inspected. In your opinion, would it not be desn-able to make an
alt eration in that respect ?

T do not quite know what the practice is with regard to communications
between the prison inspectors and the visiting justices ; but I was under the
impression that communications did pass between them.

228.5. Assuming that the evidence which we have had is correct, would you
not say that it is desirable that there should be communications between the
i'.ispectors and tlie visiting justices on any sul)jects relating to the discipline or
to the management of the prison inspected ?

I think that they would be very convenient.

2286. Does it not almost stand to reason that the visiting justices, with
whom the whole machinery of prison discipline rests, should be in communi-
cation to that e.xtent with the inspectors ?

It is quite reasonable certainly.

22S7. Duke of Marlhorouffh.] In the case of borough gaols, to whom do you
consider that the report should be sent ?
To the mayor of the town.

02S8. You would recommend the same practice to be adopted, would you
not,'with regard to borough gaols as with regard to county gaols '!
Certainly.

2289. Chairman.]

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 215

2289. Chairman.'] Are you aware of the Act of Parliament which gives the G. Everest, Esq.

power of amalgamation between borough and county gaols ?

Yes. '^^A March 1863.

22gv. Are you aware whether that has been acted upon ?
If the question refers to the Act which authorises the making of contracts
between boroughs and counties, that has been acted upon frequently.

22qi. Has the clause which allows the amalgamation of the borough gaol
itself with the county gaol ever been carried into effect ?

1 am hanlly prepared to answer that question. I do not remember any
instance at this moment.

2292. Ave you cognizant of the state of the borougli prisons ?

Not personally cognizant, but I have reason to beheve that some of them are
in a very defective state.

2293. Are you aware that many of them are very small establishments, and
that the expense of maintaining them, and the efficiency of the machinery, are
altogether out of proportion ?

They are most of them too small to be efficient.

2294. Would you consider it a desirable change if power were given to the
Secretary of State to require the removal of prisoners from a borough prison
to a large county establishment ?

I tliink that a power of that kind is highly necessary.

2295. Would there be, in your opinion, any difficulties in carrying that
change into effect ?

I am not awiire of any.

22g6. Lord Steivard.] You state that power should exist; in whom would
you vest that power ?

In the Secretary of State ; to make it compulsory on the part of the borough
authorities, if he saw sufficient occasion for it.

2297. Chairma)!.] The Secretary of State, as a general rule, has been very
diffident, has he not, in enforciuLi,- upon the magistrates of counties measures
which even in his own opinion might seem to be desirable ?

Very much so indeed. I have always observed a great disinclination on the
part of tr.e Secretary of State to interfere with the discretion of the magistrates.

2298. Supposing that such a power as that to which I have alluded, namely,
the power to enforce the removal of borough ])risoners from borougli prisons to
comity establishments, were given to the Secretary of State, do you conceive
that there would then be the same amount of disinclination on the part of the
Secretary of State to act on the power thus given ?

I think not. One reason of the present diffidence I believe to be, the want of
adequate power on the part of the Secretary of State to enforce his views.

2299. You are aware, are you not, that there is a very large discrepancy in
the general system of the borough and county gaols in tliis country ?

I believe there is a very considerable discrepancy.

2300. Are you aware that the Act of Parliament and the rules which have
been issued by the Government for the guidance of the visiting justices, con-
template the existence of certain prison rules ?

Certainly.

2301. Are you aware that there are several prisons in which no rules what-
ever exist ?

I have reason to believe that there are several prisons in which no rules have
been certified, as required by the Act of Parliament.

2302. Has that been reported to the Secretary of State?
Kot officially.

2303. Has it never appeared in any report by the inspectors ?
1 do not remember having seen anything of the kind stated.

(37. 7.) D u 4 2304. Assuming

216 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

G. Everest, Esq. 2304. Assuming that such a report were to be made, what would be the

^ , ,^ T „,, practice of the office ?
■ioth March 1863. -{,■,■,,■,,■. , , , „ , /-i

— . 1 take It that the course would be to call upon tlie Uourt of Quarter Sessions

to make rules under the statute, and to submit tliem to the Secretary of State

for approval.

2.305. And supposing that the court declined to make such rules, what would
be the course ?

That would be a contravention of the Act of Parliament, and might be the
subject of an indictment, or proceedings might be taken by mandamus, in the
Court of Queen's Bench.

2306. Are you aware that there are many gaols in which there are no certi-
fied cells ?

I beheve there are some.

2307. Has the Secretary of State ever taken any action on that subject ?
I think there was an instance of that sort some time ago.

2.:;oS. The Committee have had it in evidence that there are a large number
of prisons where the system of association of prisoners is still in force. Has
the Secretary of State ever called attention to that fact }

I think not. That is a matter which has always been left entirely to the
discretion of the magistrates.

2309. Has the Secretary of State ever, within your knowledge, called atten-
tion to any cases where the discipline might be thought to be unduly relaxed ?

I have no immediate recollection of any case of that kind.

2310. The dietary which the Secretay of State puts forward is not a compul-
sory dietary upon the magistrates, but it is merely a dietary for their guidance,
is it not ?

That is all.

231 I. In those cases where representations have been made to the Secretary
of^tate that the dietary was either above or below that allowed by the Govern-
ment, and issued in their set of rules, has the Secretary of State, as far as you
remember, ever taken any action ?

Any question of that kind which is brought under his notice is invariably
referred to the inspector of the district.

231 2. Therefore if the inspector reports the existence of an abuse, the Secre-
tary of State refers back that report to the inspector ?

No, to the visiting justices.

2313. Does the Secretary of State put himself in direct communication with
the visiting justices ?

Yes, continually ; the inspector has no power whatever to act in any way.

2314. Duke of Marllwronf/h.'] You stated just now that in the event of the
provisions of the Act of Parliament not being obeyed by the justices or by the
quarter sessions, there would be a remedy by a mandamus in I lie Court of
Queen's Bench : are you not aware that the Act of the 5th and Gth of William
the Fourth, chapter 38, enacts that the Secretary of State, if he does not
approve of the rules which are sent up for his approval, or on the failure of the
magistrates to send up proper rules, may frame rules himself which shall be
binding upon the magistrates .'

Yes.

231,). Has that taken place in any instance?

That power has never been exercised in any one instance.

23 1 6. It has been stated in evidence before the Committee by witnesses, that
that clause is inoperative in consequence of there being no penalty in the
Act of Parliament, which enables the Secretary of State to enforce the pro-
visions which the law has put in his ]io\ver. Is that the case ?

That may be so ; there is no penalty, certainly.

2317. Is not there in that case the same remedy which you suggested just

now,

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 217

now, namely, that the Court of Queen's Bench should issue a mandamus, to G. Everest, Esq.

require the justices to fulfil the provisions of the Act of Parliament? ,,~T o«
ir 1 1 i ii 1 11 1 26tQ March 1863.
No doubt the same remedy would apply.

2318. In fact the law, as it stands now, is sufficient for the purpose, if it is
put in force ?

As regards rules and regulations, it is so.

2319. Can you state any reason why the law has not been put in force with
regard to those rules ?

It arises, I think, solely from the disinchnation of the Secretary of State to
do anything which may be, or may be considered to be, distasteful or offensive
to the magistrates.

2320. Are you aware that there are many instances in which prisons have
failed to be provided with proper rules, in consequence of the disinclination on
the one hand of the justices to frame those rules, and of the Secretary of State
on the other hand to enforce them ?

I believe that there are several instances of that kind.

2321 . Do vou think it would be objectionable that that state of things should
continue ?

Certainly.

2322. Lord Wodehouse.~\ You stated just now, that you thought that the
Secretary of State might with advantage have power to enforce the rules ; but
if the Secretary of State is disinclined to exercise that power, what advantage
would there be in enacting a law to give him further power ?

I think the whole difficulty would be cleared away if the Secretary of State
were empowered to lay down rules for the government of all prisons.

2323. You have stated that the Secretary of State might by mandamus
enforce the rules which he never has enforced, because of his disinclination to
do anything that is disagreeable to the magistrates. What reason is tliere to
suppose that if the law is changed he would be inclined to do then what he is
not inclined to do now ?

I think the subject would be relieved from all difficulty if it were placed entirely
in his hands ; and if the rules, instead of being made by the quarter sessions,
were made by the Secretary of State.

2324. Duke of Marlborovgh.l Does not section 6 of the 5th and 6th of
William the Fourth actually place the whole thing in the Secretary of State's
hands ?

It may be considered to do so, but according to the present practice it is
inoperative.

232,5. Will you be good enough to read section 6 of the 5th and 6th of
WiUiam the Fourth, chapter 38 ?

" And be it further ea;icted, that in case of any clerk of the peace, clerk of
gaol sessions, or chief magistrate of any city, town, borough, port, or liberty,
neglecting or omitting to transmit to one of His Majesty's Principal Secretaries
of State copies of tlie rules or regulations in force for the government of any
prison which he is required by this Act to transmit, it shall be lawful for one of
liis INIajesty's Principal Secretaries of State, after the 1st day of December in
every year, to certify what rules and regulations he deems necessary for the
government of such prison ; and the rules and regulations so certified by such
Secretary of State shall henceforth be binding upon sheriffs and all other
persons, and shall be the only rules in force for the government of such prison."
i am quite aware that that clause has never been acted vipon.

2326. \\ ith regard to that clause, does not it put the whole power entirely in
the hands of the Secretary of State when the magistrates on their part fail to
provide proper rules for the prison ?

^'o doubt it does.

2327. Chairman.] Are the Committee to understand that you would go so
far in your recommendation as to say that it would be desirable that the

(37. 7.) E E Secretary

218 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

G. Everest, Esq. Secretary of State should henceforward make the rules for all the prisons, and
— r that those rules should be obligatory upon all prisons r

' ^' I think that would be very desirable, and would remove all difficulty.

2328. Would not that be equivalent to a very serious curtailment of the
local jurisdiction of the magistrates ?

I do not think it would very materially interfere with the discretion of the
magistrates.

2329. Would you not find some difficulty in persuading the gentlemen who
now discharge the duties of visiting justices to act for the future, if the rules
were to be uniformly laid down by the Home Office in all their details ?

It is very likely that any proposal of that kind would meet with some
opposition.

2330. After all, the only rules which are really necessary might be reduced
to a very small number, might they not ?

Not a small number, I think. What are called the official rules and regula-
tions, that is to say, those which are recommended by the Secretary of State
for adoption, are reduced to as small a form as possible.

^2331- Wovdd it not be possible to lay down those rules which are really
necessary, as well by an Act of Parliament as by the authority of the Secretary
of State ?

JNIany rules are laid down by the 4th of George the Fourth, chapter 64,
as to classification and other matters.

2332. Does not it occur to you as being a coui'se of proceeding which would
obviate many of the difficulties that might arise, if the power were in the Secre-
tary of State of laying down at his own discretion rules which are to be binding
on all the prisons ?

Yes, I think so.

2333. Therefore, you would prefer legislative action to the mere action of
the Secretary of State r

Certainly.

2334. Lord IVodehoiise.~\ After you have had legislative action, and have laid
down in the Act of Parliament a code of rules, who is to enforce that code ?

The Secretary of State must be entrusted with some means of enforcing the
rules.

2335. What means could you entrust him with ?

The best means would probably be a penalty ; but that would be a question
for consideration.

2336. What leads you to suppose that the Secretary of State would take
steps to enforce such rules, when he does not take any steps to enforce the
present law ?

Because the justices at present make their own rules, and he feels very great
difficulty in interfering with them. If the law were to make them, or if the
Secretary of State were to make them, it would be a different matter, and he
would no longer feel any difficulty ; at least, I venture to think so.

2337- Do not you think that it is more probable that the only way of giving
power to the Government to enforce the rules, would be for the Government to
pay a certain portion of the cost of the prisons, and to withhold its quota,
unless tlie magistrates observed certain rules?

The (lovernnuiit pays a considerable ))ortion of the expense already, that is
to say, certain expenditure connected with the maintenance of the prisoners,
for fuel, food, clothing and bedding.

2338. Can you inform the Committee what proportion is paid, and under what
conditions ?

The whole of the expense of the food, fuel, clothing and bedding for pri-
soners after conviction.

2339. The fact being as you have stated, would not it be possible to give the
Secretary of State powe* to withhold that payment, in cases where the rules

which

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 219

which he laid down under the authority of the Act of ParUament were not g. Everest, Esq.
complied with r - — -

Certainly. .6th March . 863.

2340. C/tairman.] And would not some such course of proceeding be in con-
formity with the principle which has been adopted in the County Constabulary
Act, where a part of the Government payment is dependent upon the action of
the county r

No doubt it would.

2341. Upon the county that probably would work much better than any
penalty, inasmuch as the penalty would come out of the pockets of the rate-
payers ?

That would depend upon the nature of the arrangement.

2342. Marquess of Salisbury.^ You stated, did you not, that the Secretary
of State is in the constant habit of communicating with the Chairman of the
Visiting Magistrates ?

Yes.

2343. And not with the Chairman of Quarter Sessions ?

When any question is raised as to prison discipline the Secretary of State
always refers to the Visiting Justices.

2344. Would it not be rather desirable that it should be to the Bench,
generally in the shape of a communication to the Chairman of Quarter
Sessions ?

T hat would depend in a great degree upon the nature of the question at
issue, I think.

2345. Would it not have the effect of bringing forward the conduct of the
Visiting Justices, if the case was put to the Chairman of Quarter Sessions ?

No doubt it would.

2346. Would that be desirable in your opinion?
In some cases it might be desirable.

2347. Earl Cat/icart,] The Home Secretary is constantly in communication
with the Visiting Justices, is he not?

Continue! lly.

2348. Duke of Marlborough^ Arc you aware whether the Secretary of State
has the same disinclination to interfere with the borough magistrates that he
appears to have with regard to the county magistrates ?

Practically, it is the same thing.

2349. Chairman.] Are you aware that, under certain circumstances, the «
governor of the gaol is appointed by the sheriff ?

Yes.

2350. On the other hand the gaol governor is always paid by the magistrates ?
Always.

2351. Are you of opinion that that is a satisfactory arrangement?
I think not.

2352. Ought not the appointment to rest with those who pay the salary, so
that the responsibility should be as far as possible undivided ?

That would seem to be the consistent arrangement.

^353- Do you think that it would be a desirable alteration if the appointment
were vested in the quarter sessions ?

1 think that all such appointments ought to be vested in the court of quarter

sessions.

2354- Earl of Romney.'] You are aware, are you not, that the sheriff is i-espon-
sible for the safe custody of the prisoner ?
Yes, quite so.

2355j_ Is it fair, seeing that the sheriff is deeply responsible in money for the
(3/. 7.) E E 2 safe

220 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

G. Everest, Esq. Safe custody of the prisoners, that the governor of the prison should he ap-

pointed by others ?

26th ]\Iarcb^63. ^ difficulty arises out of that consideration undoubtedly, but still I think
that the court of quarter sessions of the county might be safely trusted to
appoint a proper and competent person to fill the office of governor of a gaol.

23.56. Practically, the sheriff being also ordinarily a justice of the peace, does
it not usually arise that there is no dispute at all between the two authorities,
and that each works with the other cordially ; and that while the sheriff
appoints to the gaol, the justices appoint the same individual to the House of
Correction ?

Usually, I believe it is so ; but I have heard of an instance to the contrary.

2357. That is a single instance, and it would not upset the general rule?

No, it would not. It should be borne in mind that the governor of the
gaol gives a bond to the sheriff to indemnify him against any loss arising through
escape of debtors.

2358. Might not the justices appoint a person who was very fit to have charge
of the House of Correction, but who would not be able to get a bond ?

No doubt.

2359. Then you are of opinion, are you not, that they might not be able
to get the best men r

It is possible.

2360. Chairman.'] Do you think that, practically, you would get worse men if
the choice rested with the quarter sessions r

I think that the chances are that you would get the best men.

2361 . Earl of liomney.'] Probably you would get the same men ?
Perhaps the same.

2362. Chairman.'] In your opinion, there is an anomaly under the present
system ?

I think there is.

2363. Have you ever considered the expediency of some change with regard
to the identification of prisoners after a previous conviction ?

Frequently.

2364. You are aware that it is a very great evil in the law courts, that
although there is a moral certainty that a man has been previously convicted,
yet it is impossible to prove it r

I have no doubt that a large number of instances of that kind escape detec-
tion altogether.

2365. Are you aware whether any arrangement with regard to the photo-
graphing of prisoners would be likely to be attended with advantage r

Ihat is done in some prisons, but with what effect I hardly know; I believe
that some identification has taken place through the means of photographs.

2366. Do you know whether it has been attended with success?

I have not heard whether it has been generally successful or not.

2367. Have you considered the possibility of effecting an arrangement for
the better communication between prison and prison on the subject?

1 have thougiit upon the matter, but nothing has suggested itself to me as
being at all likely to be effectual.

2368. Is that a matter which has ever been brought under the attention of
the Secretary of State on account of the practical difficulties arising from the
want of such communication ?

The fact has incidentally come before the Home Office on many occasions ;
l)ut I do not remember at this moment that any direct application has ever
been made to the Secretary of State on that point.

23CQ. You are of opinion that it would be very desirable if it were possible .-
Highly desirable in every way.

2370. Has

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 221

2370. Has any suggestion ever been made to the Home Office on that G. Everest, Esq.
^^^ffL.T u ^*i . fi, T 26th March 1863.

Not that I remember, except that of brandmg.

2371. When you speak of branding, you mean affixing a mark which might
be done by a very painless operation on some part of the body where it would
not be seen ?

Yes, in the same way as marking a deserter, for instance.

2372. Is there any method whatever by which, in your opinion, it is pos-
sible to affix a mark which shall be ineffaceable ?

Yes ; I believe that is the case in marking deserters ; I am told that it is
impossible to eradicate the mark.

2373. Do you see any objection to such a proceeding ?

I cannot say that I see any objection to making a mark of that kind on a
man who has been convicted of felony.

2374. Do you think that there would be any objection entertained if the
prisoner were marked on a second conviction ?

There certainly would be less objection in a case of that kind than might be
supposed to exist after the first conviction of felony.

2375- Can you conceive any reasonable objection being made to such a
practice ?

I am not aware of any, tliough I think that it is possible that objection might
be raised.

2376. Earl Cathcart.] \^'ould not one objection be that you would preclude
all possibility of a man's commencing a new career if you were to mark
him r

That might be urged, but such marks would not be apparent except upon
examination.

2377. Chairman.] Practically, does not flogging, such as is administered in
the Army and Navy, leave a trace upon the man's back?

I believe so.

2378. It would be, consequently, possible to identify a man who had under-
gone corporal punishment, would it not, by those marks ?

That could always be done.

2379. You are aware of that?

Yes ; I have heard it over and over again.

2380. Do you believe that there is a further cause which has led to a difficulty
in identifying prisoners previously convicted, in the low scale of remuneration
which is allowed for the attendance of witnesses ?

I have understood that there has been a great unwillingness on the part of
prison officers to travel to a distance to give evidence so as to identify a prisoner,
in consequence of the low rate of remuneration to witnesses.

2381. Has a representation to that effect been very frequently made to the
Home Office ?

Very frequently, I believe.

2382. Has it produced any change or any revision of the scale as it was
originally determined ?

1 believe that the Secretary of State has recently amended the scale with
regard to certain classes of witnesses.

2383. Are you aware whether there have not been verv great complaints
since that revision took place ?

That has not come within my own knowledge. I have not heard of any com-
plaints ; but the revised scale has only been very recently adopted.

_ 2384. Can you put in a return showing the scale of allowances as it pre-
viously existed and the revised scale which has recently been adopted .'

I can procure the two scales for the Committee.

23S5. Earl Catkcart.'] There are only about 160 prisons in England and
Wales ; would there be any difficulty in circulating some paper, in the nature

f37- 7.) E E 3 of

222 Mli>JUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

G. Everest, Enq. of a Police Gazette, or in the nature of Notes and Queries, amongst all thos e

AT — Z -« prisons ?
26th March i«63. j ^^ ^^j. |^j-^q^ ^^^^^ there would; there is a Pohce Gazette already published.

2386. I mean an analogous paper to Notes and Queries, regarding prisons ?
I do not know that there would be ; it would lead to some expense.

2387. Have you anything to do with the Police Gazette ?
Nothing whatever.

2388. Eixrl of Ducie.l Do you think that the existing number of prison in-
spectors, namely, two, is sufficient for the work that they have to perform ?

I think quite so.

2389. Lo7'd Steward.'] Do you think it better that the country should be per-
manently divided into two districts, to be regularly inspected by the same
inspector, or that they should visit the districts alternately, as in Ireland?

Something may be said on both sides of that question ; but it is generally
remarked, 1 think, that it is more convenient to have one inspector for one
district. They become better acquainted with the mode of administering the
discipline, and they are better able to revert to circumstances which have taken
place at some prior period, which is sometimes desirable.

23(^0. Lord WodehouseJ] Are you aware that, in point of fact, the inspectors
do not visit each prison every year now ?

They do not, I believe, sometimes ; it is clear that they cannot, because every
prison in their district is not always reported upon in their annual report.

2391. Would it not be desirable to make it imperative upon them to visit
each prison at least once in the 12 months ?

I think it would.

2392. Earl Catficart-] Ought there not to be a third inspector in the case of
the illness of one of the inspectors, or in case of a protracted inquiry ?

No difficulty has arisen in that respect.

2393. Supposing one of the inspectors were ill, what would be done in that
event ?

The Secretary of State has the power of making an interim appointment.

2394. Duke of Marlborough^ He has the power, has he not, to appoint any
number not exceeding five '?

Yes ; and he has also the power to appoint other persons to assist the inspec-
tors, if necessary ; so that any difficulty which might arise from the illness of
an inspector could be very easily met by the existing law.

2395. Earl Cathcart.'] With regard to pardons upon medical grounds, are
they of very frequent occurrence ?

Very frequent indeed.

2396. Does not that influence the statistics of mortaUty in prison a great deal 1
It must do so.

2397- If the men are likely to die, they let them out of prison, do they not ?
Usually.

2398. Chairman.'] That is always done, is it not, by warrant from the Secre-
tary of State ?

It is done by a pardon signed by the Queen.

2399. Confining your remarks to those prisoners who are under sentence for
two years imprisonment, and no more, can you state to the Committee the
number of commutations of sentences which have taken place on any grounds
during the last year r

I have no means of giving the number at this moment ; I can easily ascertain
it, but it is not large ; it is a very small proportion, I should say, in relation
to the whole number of prisoners.

2400. On what grounds besides medical grounds are sentences of under two
years commuted ?

The grounds are so very various that I could hardly attempt to give a descrip-
tion of them. Sometimes it is considered, upon a review of the case, that the

prisoner

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 223

prisoner has undergone sufficient punishment for his offence, and sometimes G. Evcreit, Esq.

the remission takes place on tlie eround of the exemplary conduct of the , ,

*. , . Ill • i.r 1 Q6th Mf.rch i86s.
prisoner, or some special service rendered, and on various other grounds. •^

2401. Has commutation of a sentence ever taken place upon the ground of
merely the good conduct of a prisoner, apart from any particular action ?

In many cases. The Gaol Act enables justices to recommend prisoners for
pardon on the ground of exemplary conduct in gaol.

2402. Is the Secretary of State considered to have tlie power to commute on
the general grounds of good conduct, or is he limited to where a prisoner has
performed some act, such as interfering in an attempt to escape, or murder, or
any tiling of that kind ?

The CJrown is not limited in any way as to commutation or remission of
sentence ; but as a matter of practice, remission does not take place on the
ground of good conduct in j)rison, unless the prisoner is recommended by the
A'isiting magistrates through the court of quarter sessions, on account of " extra-
ordinary diligence or merit," in terms of the Act of Parliament.

2403. Earl of Romney.'] Do the visiting justices often make use of that power ?
Yes, they do.

2404. Chaiimnii.'] Can you make a return of the immber of cases within
the last 10 years where a commutation of sentence has taken place upon those
grounds r

Certainly.

2405. Duke of A/arlhnroitgh.] On whose recommendation does the Secretary
of State usually act in granting those remissions?

On his own view.

2406. Tiie circumstances of the case must be brought before him by some-
body. On whose recommendation is it that he generally proceeds to grant the
remission of a sentence ?

That is a very large question indeed, and it would take me some time, to go
into full detail. Whenever an application is made to the Secretary of State on
behalf of any prisoner, he takes such measures as he may think fit for inquiring
into the facts of the case, and he disposes of the application accordingly. If
he finds upon inquiry that there are grounds which, in his judgment, afford a
fair reason for a mitigation of the sentence, he advises it ; if he thinks that is
not the case, he takes no action whatever.

2407. Do I understand you aright that you are now alluding to cases of
remission of sentences in county prisons ?

Yes, entirely in reference to county prisons.

2408. Are recommendations, with regard to the remission of a sentence,
ever made and acted upon contrary to the opinion of the county justices, or the
visiting justices of a prison ?

Not that I know of. If the Secretary of State, on inquiring into any case,
sees ground for remitting a portion of a sentence, he does not refer the matter
to the visiting justices at all.

2409. Chairman.'] Is it within your knowledge that the Secretary of State
has ever commuted a sentence, without any communication passing between
him and the magistrates of the county.

Continually.

2410. Lord Wodchnuse?\ Does he communicate with the Chairman of the
Quarter Sessions who sentenced the prisoner ?

Very frequently, but not invariably.

2411. Marquess of Salisbury.'] Does he not invariably send to the judge,
who tried the offender, and ask for the notes of the trial.

In the generality of cases, but not invariably.

241 2. In what cases does he not do so ?

Where a pardon, for instance, is recommended on medical grounds.

2413. But in all other cases does he do so?

C37. 7.) E E 4 There

224 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

G. Everest, Etq. There are some exceptions, but usually the case is referred to the judge

n , .. — 7 . before whom it is tried before any remission of sentence is granted.
2Gth March 1863. ■' °

_ 2414. Lord Steward.'] That would be in cases where a man performs any

meritorious act in gaol.

Yes, certainly,

2415. Chairman.'] Putting aside the question of medical grounds, is it within
your knowledge that the Secretary of State has ever commuted a sentence oriu
the ground of severity, or that the evidence was insufficient, without consult-
ing the Chairman of the Quarter Sessions, or the judge ?

No ; he would not do so upon that ground without consulting the judge.

2416. Lord Jl'odehouse.'] The cases to which you refer would be either where
a sentence is commuted on medical grounds, or for some special meritorious
act, with the knowledge of the prison authorities.

Yes.

2417. Where, therefore, the judge could have no knowledge of what had
taken place.

Quite so.

2418. Chairma7i.] What is the form of the commutation of a sentence r
The form is a warrant signed by the Queen ; a pardon, in fact.

24 1 g. Therefore, the Secretary of State advises the Crown to commute the
sentence of such and such a prisoner ?
He does.

2420. Duke of Marlborough.] Does every case of this nature come under the
cognisance of the Secretary of State ?

Every one of them.

242 1 . And he then acts upon his own discretion ?
Entirely.

2^22. Are there frequent cases of remission of sentence for good conduct in
prison ?

They are not numerous, as compared with the whole number of prisoners.

2423. In cases of that sort are the visiting justices consulted beforehand?
The recommendation emanates from the visiting justices, in the first jjlace ;-

the Act requires that the visiting justices should recommend to the Court of
Quarter Sessions, and that the Court of Quarter Sessions should then submit
the case to the Secretary of State.

2424. Does the Secretary of State exercise the power of prospectively short-
ening a sentence ?

Yes, that is done sometimes ; that is to say, a sentence of two years may be
reduced to 18 months.

2425. Before the expiration of the 18 months ?
Yes, certainly ; that is frequently done.

2426. Chairman.] On what ground is that done ?

Upon various grounds ; the good conduct or special services of a prisoner, or
the favouralile result of inquiry into the case, or possibly severity of sentence,
and on other grounds.

2427. Where a remission is made on the ground of the severity of the
sentence, is the judge or the chairman of the quarter sessions consulted ?

Yes, most generally.

2428. But not invariably?

There have been cases in which no consultation of that kind has taken place ;
but usuall V it is the practice to refer to the judge before whom the trial took place.

2429. On whose representation would the Secretary of State be moved to
advise the Crown in that matter ?

The action of the Secretary of State would not depend upon the quarter from
whence the application came ; it would rest entirely ujjon the facts of the case.
Applications are received sometimes from prisoners, scmietimes from their friends,
and sometimes from the counsel for the defence, as well as from other quarters.

2430. On.

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 225

2430. On what ground could the Secretary of State himself go, except the G. Everest, Esq.
notes of the presiding judge ? ~"

He has no other information, except perhaps prison and police reports as to ^ ti arc 11863.
character, and so on.

243 1 . But what facts would the Secretary of State have, upon which to base
his opinion, apart from the notes of the presiding judge ?

That would depend entirely upon the nature of the case.

2432. Can you conceive any case in wdiich the Secretary of State could
come to a conclusion without " having before him the notes of the presiding
judge ?

In some of the cases to which I have referred, such as the good conduct
of a prisoner, &c., remission takes place upon grounds wholly ii-respective of
the facts of the case.

2433. I am dealing entirely with those cases where remission is made on the
ground of the severity of the sentence ; what facts are there upon which the
Secretary of State could proceed ?

He could not proceed upon any facts except those disclosed at the trial, or
ascertained by subsequent inquiry.

2434. Is there any official record which would disclose those facts at the
trial, except the notes of the presiding judge ?

None.

^435- Therefore, the Secretary of State would be acting entirely from his
own fancy and pleasure if he were to make any change in a sentence without
previously consulting the notes of the judge, which alone are the authority for
any particular fact ?

No doubt he would ; but that has so seldom happened, that I might almost
say it never takes place,

2436. Duke of Marlborough.'] As I understand you, the notes of the pre-
siding judge are the only record that the Secretary of State would have to act
upon in the remission of a sentence on the ground of severity ?

The only one.

2437. And those notes, as I understand you, would be invariably called
for?

Yes, almost invariably.

2438. Is it a fact that applications for the remission of a sentence of that
nature are made soon after the sentence has been passed ?

Frequently.

2439. ^"^^ is it the case that the Secretary of State occasionally acts on that
application, and after reviewing the notes of the judge soon after the sentence
has been passed by the judge, proceeds to remit the sentence ?

Yes, that happens sometimes.

2440. So that, in fact, the remission would rest solely upon the different
view of the case taken by the Secretary of State from that which the judge
took.

Not upon that ground ostensibly, I think ; although practically it would come
to that.

244 1 . Earl Cathcart.] Is it not the invariable practice, in asking for the facts,
to ask for the opinion of the judge, as well as a statement of the facts from the
judge or the chairman of the quarter sessions ?

Invariably ; in asking for the notes, the opinion of the judge is always
requested.

2442. Chairman.'] Are the Committee to understand that there are no cases
whatever upon record in the Home Office where a commutation of a sentence
has been made by the authority of the Secretary of State, on the ground of the
excessive severity of the sentence, without previously calling for the notes of
the presiding judge ?

I cannot go so far as to say that ; cases of that kind may have occurred, but
they are very rare.

(37. 7.) F F 2443. Lord

226 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

G- Everest, Esq. 2443. Lord Wvdchoiise.] When a question of that kind occurs, upon v/hat

does the Secretary of State base his decision ?

26th March 1863. Up„ii iiis own view entirely.

2444. Chairman.'] Have you become aware, in the Home Office, of the great
inequaUty of the sentences pronounced by judges or chairmen of quarter sessions
for the same offence ?

That has long been very apparent.

244.5. Is that inequality to be found even in the sentences at the same assize
or the same quarter sessions ?

Not so much so at the same assize or quarter sessions, I think.

2446. Has the attention of the Secretary of State been drawn to that fact,
and have any steps ever been adopted with a view to produce greater equality
of sentence ?

His attention has often been drawn to the fact, but no steps have been taken
upon the subject.

2447. Can you make any suggestion to the Committee upon that point ?

I am afraid I cannot ; the Secretary of State never pretends to interfere with
the discretion of the judges in the administration of the criminal law.

2448. Do not you think that the judges themselves consider that inequality
of sentence a ver}" great misfortune :

It is very likely they do. 1 never have heard the opinion of any of the judges
upon the subject ; but it must be quite apparent to them all that great diversity
of practice exists.

2449. For identically the same offence a very different sentence is continually
passed ?

No doubt.

2450. Lord SlciLHird.'] Do you know any cases in which tlie Secretary of
State has mitigated a sentence contrary to the opinion of the judge ?

I am (juite suie that that can have happened but very rarely ; I do not re-
member any case of the kind at this moment. Sometimes the judges decline to
express an opinion.

2451 . Marquess of Sa/isbuiy.] A judge seldom expresses an opinion, does he ?
Usually he does, but sometimes he does not ; he is always asked to do so

whenever he is referred to.

24.52. Earl of Roi)niey.'\ He is sometimes asked to give his opinion without
his notes of the evidence ; but if he is asked for the notes of the evidence he is
always asked for his opinion, is he not ?

Always. There is usually a particular form of reference to the judges, and
the same words are used upon all occasions ; the request is for a copy of
the notes of the evidence, together with the judge's opinion upon the case,

24.5.3. Duke of Maiiborough.] Is it the case that the judges invariably
forward their notes of the evidence upon the request being made to them ?
Always.

24,54. Earl Cathcart.l Are you aware that religious toleration prevails in all
prisons, or nearly all prisons ?

Yes.

2455. I'hat is to say, if a prisoner wishes to see a clergyman of a particular
persuasion, that clergyman is sent for ?
Certainly.

Tlie Witness is directed to withdraw.

Captain

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 227

Captain CHARLES MAXWELL LUCKRAFT, r.n., is called in, and examined Captain

as follows : ^- ^- Lnckraft,

R N.

•2A^(>. Chairman?^ YOU are at the head of the Naval Prison at Lewes, are — -

' ^ -' 26th March 1863.
you not ?

I am.

2457. Will you state to the Committee when that prison was established ?
It was first opened for the reception of prisoners on the 7th of April last.

24.58. Therefore it has been established very nearly one year ?
Yes, very nearly a year.

2459. M'ill you state generally, before going into details, whether the result
of that prison has been satisfactory ?

So far as one can observe, and from what one hears, it is very satisfactory.

2460. What is the size of the prison?

It is capable of containing, 1 think, 180 prisoners with comfort, but more
might be crowded into it ; it is the old county prison.

246 1 . At present, what is the number of naval prisoners in confinement ?
One hundred and twenty.

2462. On what system is the prison constructed ?

They are mostly separate cells, but we class the prisoners. I have an
associated class ; but the generality of the prisoners are in separate cells.

2463. How many cells are there?
I think about 100.

2464. Are those cells upon the same model and plan as the Pentonville
cells ?

I think not.

2465. Are they larger or smaller?

They are large cells. I am not quite prepared to state their dimensions now,
although I sent their dimensions to the Admiralty the other day ; but they are
large vvell-ventilated cells. I should think the size is about 12 feet by 10, and
probably nine feet high.

24G6. Is there any inspector appointed by the Government as an inspector
of naval prisons ?

^^'e have quarterly visitors and monthly visitors, but I am not aware of any
inspector biing appointed- by the Government. Sir Joshua Jebb has been
down twice, and looked into the working of the prison, but whether he is
appointed by the Admiralty or not I am not prepared to say ; I think not.

2467. Are the cells certified previous to their use ?
Yes.

2468. Do you light the cells with gas ?

No, they are not lighted with gas ; they have a trap-door, and they work in
the cells by the hght which is afforded by the gas in the corridors.

2469. Where does the ventilation proceed from ?

The ventilation proceeds from a simple hole in the wall from the corridor;
but the cells are very high, and there is a large window.

2470. Is it in the power of the prisoners to open that window and close it at
their own pleasure ?

Yes, it is.

247 1 . Within the cells what is the bedding which is in use ?

The bedding I manufacture myself ; it is made out of the fibre of the cocoa-
nut, stutfed and well packed, and it forms a very nice elastic bed ; and the
bedding consists of a rug and one or two blankets at the discretion of the
governor.

2472. Do the prisoners sleep in hammocks ?

No, they sleep on iron bedsteads ; the first week they have to sleep on bed-
boards. '1 hey are not allowed a bed except at the discretion of the governor.
(37. 7.) F F 2 2473. Is

228

MINTJTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Captain
C. M. Luckraft,

B. N.

26tli March 1863.

2473. Is there a mattress added to the iron bedstead ?

Yes, there is a mattress placed on the bedstead when they have a bed
allowed them.

2474. Do the prisoners wear the prison clothing or their own clothing ?
They wear the prison clothing.

247,5. What does that consist of?

It is a uniform of my own, as nearly as possible the same description of
frock as the sailors wear ; it is made of a kind of stout grey frieze for the
winter, both the frock and the trowsers, and the the trowsers are fitted with
a strap and buckle behind, not suspended by braces, so as to leave the limbs
and body free ; they have also a check shirt and a flannel shirt and a flannel
drawers, worsted stockings, and shoes.

2476. That you think sufficient ':
Quite sufficient ; then in the summer
dunearee trowsers.

time, in warm weather, we have

2477. Are books gllowed in the cells ?

Religious books only are allowed to those prisoners who are not in the first
class ; we class men according to good conduct.

2478. At whose discretion are those religious books issued?

The chaplain undertakes the issue of them, and has the charge of them ;
there are religious books for tlie Protestant as well as the Roman Catholic
pi'isoners which they may have.

2479. ^^ t^^^ chaplain limited in the distribution of the books by any rule?
No ; but it is the rule that there are to be religious books in every cell.

24S0. Are books of any other nature allowed to prisoners?

Yes ; we have a library for those pi-isoners who are in the first class.

2481. The first class, I presume, are composed of those prisoners who have
acquired that privilege by good conduct r
Yes.

general

rule included in the first

24S2. What is the total number as a
class r

I have never exceeded 26 yet.

2483. How many classes are there ?

I am simply working it in two classes ; that is my own idea ; the first and
third class, in military prisons they frequently have an intermediate class,
the second class ; but I could not see the utility of it very much, and so I
worked it with two, with the permission of the Admiralty, and it was a saving
in expense also.

24S4. ^Yhat is the ordinary length of the sentences in naval prisons ?

They vary very much ; in the case of prisoners who are sent from the
Channel Fleet, and who are not tried by court-martial, the maximum is three
months, and the minimum about 28 or 21 days ; but if they are tried by court
martial they are sentenced to as much as two years.

248.5. Are your classes arranged simply upon the principle of good or of
indiff"erent conduct or, are they arranged upon the principle of length of
sentence ?

Upon the principle of length of sentence, and of good conduct also. Those
men who are in for a short time require the full sting of their punishment ; and
altlKjugh a man may be sentenced to a long im]irisonment, yet he probably is
not a wor.-e man for (hat; he may have connuitted an offence upon the spur of
the moment, which he has regretted afterwards, but yet, having been brought
to a court martial, he is sentenced for a long period.

2486. 'ihen you are without any rules which would place the Committee in
possession of precise information as to the distribution of the prisoners into
those two classes ?

It is simply from good conduct, at the discretion of the governor. Hitherto

I have

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 229

I have not put a man into the first class whose sentence does not exceed three Captain
months ; but there is* no reason why it should not be done, and I think by-and- ^- ^^- Luchrafl,
by it may be done. '_ J

2487. Therefore, are the Committee to understand that the large majority ^Gth March 18G3.
of naval prisoners are in the third class :

Yes.

2488. And a very small minority are in the first ?
Yes, at present it is so.

2489. And that none enter the first class who are committed to prison for
short sentences ?

There is no reason why they should not, but that is left to the discretion of
the governor, in a great measure.

2490. And that none enter the first class under any circumstances, unless for
good conduct?

Not unless for good conduct, under any circumstances. I have had men in
for long sentences whose conduct has been troublesome, and they have never
entered the first class.

249 1 . You have framed this system, have you not, very much upon the
system adopted in military pi'isons ?

Very much.

24q2. So far as classes or gradations are concerned, you have merely varied
it by dropping the intermediate class?

Simply by that. We save by that means one principal warder and the
warders of one ward.

2493. Have you any good-conduct badges, or any marks?

Yes ; I have a distinctive badge, which is a red band upon the left arm.

2494. Do you find that that produces a good deal of emulation amongst the
prisoners ?

Very much.

249.5. Are there any prisoners in the third class who are in possession of
those badges ?

No, none in the third class ; they only gain that badge by being removed to
the first class.

24()6. Is there only one set of marks ?

There is only one set of marks. In the case of those men who are in for a
very short time, and who are not admitted into the first class, it is scarcely
worth while to make any distinction.

2497. When the sentence does not exceed two months, the system of grada-
tions and good-conduct badges can hardly come into operation ?

Scarcely ; it takes some time before you can really tind out what a man is.
When they first come in they all commit offences, and they try very frecpiently
to kick against the rules of discipline, and that prevents them for a certain time
from having a mark of distinction.

2498. Can you inform the Committee what is the kind of good conduct for
which you would award one of those badges ; is it positive good conduct, or is
it merely the negative virtue of abstaining from breaking the prison rules 1

For positive good conduct, and also for not coming before me in the De-
faulters' Book, and for activity and readiness to do that which is right and
proper.

2499. Do they work by time, or by piece ?
By time.

2500. What is the nature of the work on which prisoners are employed ?
We commence simply with the work of picking oakum. The hard labour is

similar to that in use in military prisons ; it consists of the shot drill ; but in
consequence of a suggestion which I made to the Admiralty the other day, I
employed all the first-class men upon work connected with the steam reserve of
the different ports, making useful articles for the steam reserve ; that is, employ-
(3r. 7.) F F 3 ing

230 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Cnptain ing them at. tUeir profession instead of the monotonous dull work of picking
C. Il.Luckraft, oakum continually. They appreciate that very much ; anJl although it is not
^•■^* hard labour, yet it is continuous labour; they are at it from morning till

nisrht.

a6th March 1863.

2501. Is there a strong wish on the part of those who are in the third class
to get into the fii'st class, in order to obtain that employment ?
Yes, doubtless.

2,502. What is the work upon which the first class are exclusively employed ?
At present they have been employed in making what is called matting for
boats' gripes, of various sizes.

~5'^3- Will you state whether that is work to which they have been accus-
tomed on board ship previous to their entering the prison ?

Yes, they have been brought up to it; it is a part of the profession of seamen ;
I mean making matting for harbour gaskets, and sea gaskets, and junk wads
for guns, swabs, and various other articles. That kind of woi-k is very remuner-
ative work ; it i^ays the prison very well ; we get very nearly at the rate of
1,000 /. a year for labour.

2.504. Is that very coarse work ?

Some of it is very fine and neat work, it is made with what we call a sword ;
the different parts of the rope are wove one inside the other, and liove on with
a heavy piece of wood called a sword, it is quite a sailor's work.

2.505. Is there any other form of more penal labour than that ?
No, none that I have adopted.

2506. Does shot drill form a part of your labour ?
Yes, it forms a part of the labour of the third class.

2507. How many hours a day are the prisoners exercised at that shot drill?

" An hour and a half in the morning, and an hour and a half in the after-
noon.

2508. I presume on board ship they have never been exercised at shot drill ?
Never, except by simpl}' loading and carrying shot to supply the guns at

exercise.

2.509. What is the weight of the shot ?

32 ll)s. and 2-1 lbs.; we give the 24-pounder to the weaker-bodied men, and
the 32-pounder to those who can carry it. 32 lbs. is the maximum weight.

2510. Is the drill which is in use of a very simple nature ?
Verj' simple.

2,5 1 I . You are aware that in military prisons the shot drill admits of a good
deal of complication ; have you confined it to one particular form, the drill ?
One particular diagram.

25 12. Could you put that diagram in ?

Yes, tliis is it {handing the same to the Chairman). The men work in lines,
and when one rack is empty he returns, and it is filled by his neighbour.

251.3. Have you ever found any impracticability in teaching sailors to perform
shot drill ?

Not at all ; it is done in one minute.

2514. From your experience on that ])oint, would you say that there would
be any jiractical difficulty in teaching civilians in a county prison to perform
shot drill ?

Not at all ; I think it is the best thing for vagrants.

2,515. Since the shot drill has been tried iu naval prisons, have there been
any cases of rupture ?

No, none. We are very particular indeed in examining a man before he
undertakes the shot drill ; a man who comes into prison ruptured is not
allowed to be put to shot drill ; and we are very particular in how he lifts the
shot, so as to prevent a prisoner being ruptured.

2516. Might it not be a safeguard against the possibility of such an accident

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISOX DISCIPLINE. 231

if a man were employed with rather a lighter shot whenever there was any sus- Captain

picion of rupture ? 'CM. Luckraft.

Possibly it would ; but I think that a 32-pounder shot is not too heavy for a "

man with any strength at all. „^., ,t k or

■' o 20th March 1863.

2517. Does the shot rest upon the ground ? ■

No ; it is raised about four inches upon a cast block, a Uttle scored to take
the shot.

25 I 8. Of course the smaller the action of stooping the less would be the ex-
er tion r
Of course.

2519. If the shot were of a lighter form, would not the task itself be equally
irksome ?

It would require the same amount of stooping, but not the same amount of
labour.

2520. Duke of Marlborough.'] Would the wearing of a belt at all help to
prevent rupture 1

Yes, I should think it would ; it certainly assists them, because men have
frequently asked me to be permitted to have a belt, which they have brought
in privately to the prison, and I have always granted it.

2521. From what you state about the dress, the trousers being fastened with
a buckle behind, that would act as a belt I presume?

Yes, I consider it a great relief to them.

2522. Chairman.'] Shot drill is an essentially unproductive form of labour, is
it not ?

Quite unproductive.

2523. The Committee have had conflicting evidence upon that point ; they
have been informed by some witnesses that unproductive labour has a tendency
to create great degradation and irritation in the mind of a prisoner ; have you
ever observed that in the case of naval prisoners ?

I have not observed that ; of course one can scarcely arrive at their feelings
in that respect ; but I have not observed that it is so. I think it is obvious that
if they knew that their hard labour was productive labour, it would not be the
same amount of hard labour as if it were unproductive.

2524. Would you not be aware of it if there was a very strong feeling of that
kind?

Yes, I think so ; seamen look upon oakum picking as far more degrading than
the shot exercise.

2525. Why is that?

It is the simple, continuous, monotonous operation of picking oakum that
they dislike so much ; I believe that sometimes, when they are taken from
the room where they are picking oakum, it is a relief to them to go to the shot
exercise.

2526. Earl of Dudleij.] Oakum picking is not hard labour, is it ?

No, it is continuous, monotonous labour, not hard labour ; and it is more
offensive to them.

2527. Marquess of Salisbury^ Does oakum picking spoil their hands for any
finer work ?

At first it does, but they soon get accustomed to it.

2528. Does it spoil the hands of a prisoner for such a thing as picking pockets
afterwards ?

I think not.

2.V2q. Earl of Romnei/.] A sailor would have a particular disHke, I presume,
to picking oakum ?

Yes ; 1 think that a sailor has a great dislike to it, and one -half of the offences
that I have to punish are for tlie non-performance of their oakum picking in
their cells at night.

(37- 7.) F F 4 2530. Chairman.]

232 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Captain 2530. Chairman.'] Do you exact a particular quantity of oakum pickino- ?

C. 31. Luckrqft, yes, according to the nature of tlie yarns ; tlie chief warder has particular
' orders to issue the quantity accoiding to the nature of the yarn.

26th March 1863. 253 1. What punishment would you award for the non-performance of the

— ■ ■ — proper amount of work r

If it is done a second time, very likely I should stop the man's supper; or if it
was a meat -dinner day, I would take his meat dinner from him and give him
the ordinary diet of meal instead.

253'2. Do you employ solitary confinement as a punishment ?
1 employ separate confinement, not solitary.

2.533- Do you ever reduce the diet to bread and water ?
Yes, in case of offences against the prison rules.

2.534. Are you empowered to administer corporal punishment ?
No, there is no Act of Parliament for that.

2535- Is it impossible to apply corporal punishment ?
It is not jjossible ; I have not the power.

2530. Is there no authority in the naval prisons which has the power of
ordering corporal punishment ?
None.

2537. Not for any offence, however bad it may be ?
None.

2538. Earl of Romney.~\ Under what law are you ?

Under the naval marine law ; but it was the opinion of the Admiralty
Attorney, in drawing up rules and regulations or the government of the prison,
that there was no Act of Parliament authorising corporal punishment for naval
prisoners on shore, or for offences committed in a naval prison, and that it would
require a separate Act of Parliament for that.

2.539- You are not under the Naval Mutiny Act, are you ?
No.

2540. Chainnaii.'\ Is not that, in your opinion, a very serious omission ?

No case has arisen yet in which 1 should like to use the cat. I have had one
or two tried by^ the Board of Visitors, but their powers are rather circum-
scribed.

2541. Officers commanding ships are empowei'ed in courts martial to order
corporal punishment, are they not ?

Yes.

2,542. But there is no power that can order corporal punishment, as I under-
stand you, in the administx'ation of naval prisoners r
None.

2543. Lord Steward.] You stated that you had had them tried by the Board
of Visitors ; who are the visitors ?

They are the Naval Commander-in-Chief at Portsmouth, the Flag Captain, ex
officio, the Honourable Mr. Brand, the Member for Lewes, and Mr. Whitfield,
Mr. Molyneux, Mr. Godle, three of the county magistrates.

2.544. Earl of 3Ialviesbiirij.] It would appear from the Act, that the officer
who commits the delinquent to prison has a right to have him flogged before
he is sent to prison ?

Yes ; before he leaves the ship that can be done.

2.54.5. And then lie is sent to your prison ?

Yes, very often in sentences of a court martial that is done.

2.546. Lord Steward^ You could not punish corporally any offence com-
mitt(>d within the prisun?

No; I have no power whatever to do so.

2547. Chairman.] Do you ever punish by ordering the prisoner to sleep upon
the bare boards ?

Yes.

2548. Is

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 233

2548. Is that a punishment which you find sahitary ? Capiain

Yes, very indeed ; they miss their bed very much. C. M. Liickraft,

2/149. 1^° ^^^^y dishke that very much ?

Yes, they dislike it very much ; but I have not the power to order it for more 26th March 1863.
than three days at a time.

2,550. Under what powers do you act ; is it under a statute ?
My power is simply laid down in the rules and regulations ; I have nothing
for my guidance but that.

2551. Earl of Rumney.'] By whom are those rules made ?
I'hey are framed by the Admiraltv under the Act of Parliament.

2552. Chairman.'] Will you be good enough to put in a copy of those rules
and regulations ?

Yes — {delivering in tlie same).

2553. I see here that, at page 38, the diet of the prisoners is laid down ; and
I perceive that there are three classes of diet ?

Yes, there are three classes of diet.

2554. Do you employ those three classes of diet, or do you merge one of
them, just as you have merged one of the clauses as to hard labour ?

They are employed precisely as is directed there. There is a diet for a man
coming in for 42 days and under, there is a diet for over three months, and
there is a diet for 56 days ; all of which, according to circumstances, are daily
in use.

255,5. Up to ,56 days no meat is allowed to the prisoners, is there ?
The class to which the noble Earl refers is for light labour.

2556. Is meat employed throughout r

Meat is employed throughout ; if a prisoner is in for 42 days and under, he only
gets two meat dinners a week. That is a recent regidation, formerly it was three ;
but I thought that was a great deal too much, and I brought the matter before
the Board of Visitors, and they recommended a reduction to the Admiralty.
However long a prisoner might be in before that period, if he was not employed
at hard labour he was nUowed no meat whatever, so that the extra meat dinner
which was taken away from the short sentences was recommended to be given
to those at light labour and long sentences after three months.

2557. By whom is the hard labour and the light labour awarded respectively?
That is awarded by the captains of the ships from which we receive the

prisoners.

2558. Does it vary with the nature of the offence ?

It entirely rests with the captain of the ship. Some captains, for desertion,
will send a man for three months with hard labour, and other captains for as
little as 28 days without hard labour.

2559. How far does this diet vary from the diet now in use in the military
prisons ?

I think it is a higher class of diet than in the military prisons. I believe
that the Medical Director General of the Navy was of opinion that the seamen
required a higher class of diet in prison than soldiers generally, because they
are fed so well on board.

2560. Earl of Dudley.'] It is all salt meat in the Navy, is it not ?

Yes, but it is of good quality ; and when in harbour they have fresh meat.

2561. Chairman.'] Could you make out a return showing the difference of
diet in the naval and in military prisons, placing the two side by side in
parallel columns ?

Yes, I will endeavour to do so.

2562. Duke of Marlborough.] Have you power to put the prisoners in
irons ?

Yes, I have power to do so ; but I must report it immediately to the visitor.

(37. 7.) G G 2563. How

Jt.N.

a6th March 1863.

234 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Captain 25C3. IIow long do vou keep them in irons ?

C. M. Liickraft, \ am not allowed to keep them in irons more than 24 hours at a time ; but
it is on only one occasion that I have been compelled to put a man in irons,
and that was for striking an officer.

2564. Earl of Dudley.'] That is j'our last resource ?
Yes, that is our last resource.

2565. Duke of Marlborough.'] Are you aware that a marine afloat is far
better fed, and has a much greater variety of food, than a soldier on shore ?

Yes, I believe it is so.

2.566. Chairman.'] Do you issue extra diets to any of the prisoners ?
The first class get an extra two ounces of meat on Sundays.

2567. Is that in the nature of an indulgence ?
Yes, it is by way of an indulgence for good conduct.

2568. Is extra diet ever issued to those prisoners who are not sick enough
to be placed upon the sick list, and yet are supposed to be incapable of doing
the same hard labour as their companions do without additional support r

That rests entirely with the medical officer ; he regulates the diet of all those
that are under his charge, and he either orders them hard-labour diet or light
labour diet ; and if they are not sufficiently well to perform the hard labour,
they very often have their hard-labour diet continued.

2569. There are probably cases where prisoners are supposed to be not ill
enough to go into the infirmary : but where the surgeon desires to give them
some additional support in the way of extra diet, is that done ?

Y^es, it is quite in his power to do anything he pleases.

2570. Does he practically do that?
Yes.

2.571. Can you state what proportion the number of extra diets bear to the
number of ordinary diets ?

A very small percentage ; I do not suppose that it occurs more than once in
a month ; it is not of daily occurrence at all. Prisoners are very healthy indeed
in that prison ; not one man has gone into the infirmary yet.

2572. 'DwVe oi ][Iarlhoroiigh.] Do you find that the jmsoners engaged in
shot drill require higher diet than those engaged in such work as you were
speakin.g of, namely, first-class productive labour ?

No ; I think that they do not require higher diet, but I find that they lose
flesh more than the first class.

2573. You do not find that their general health suffers ?
No, they are in very good condition.

2574. I suppose the difference of exertion is very great, is it not, between
the shot drill and the labour of the first-class prisoners ?

Verj^ great.

2575. As I understand the practical working of your system, it is that the first
class, who are engaged in light work, get better fed than the third class, who
are engaged in heavy s^hot drill ?

YcsV but all the men in the first class have undergone their shot drill, and
from their good conduct have raised themselves to the first class.

2576. Looking at it as a question of health, you do not find that the hard
labour, conjoined with a low fare, acts prejudicially upon the health ?

No.

2577. Earl of Vvcie..] What is your usual percentage of men on the sick list r
About two pc r cent, only are daily exempted from duty, and about four per.

cent, partially exempted irom duty.

2.578. Marquess of Sallshtcry^ How are they partially exempted from
duty ?

A man is exempted from the hard labour, but not from the fight labour.

2579. Earl

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 235

aiiTu. Earl of Diicie.A 'I'he system carried on in your prison is a healthy one. Captain

is it not? ^ C.M.L^kraft,

Very healthy indeed. '

2580. There is nothing in the severity of the work or in the meagreness of 26th March 1863.
the diet which hurts the prisoners ?

No ; on the contrary, they go out in capital condition.

25S1. Lord JVodehouse.] Do the prisoners in the first class work in separate
cells, or are they associated r
They are associated.

2582. Do you find that any evil results arise from the association of men of
very different characters ?

1 have found none whatever.

2583. Earl of Dudley^ Have they the power of conversing ?

I give them that permission ; when they are at meals they may converse in
a low orderly tone, and also when they are associated in the evening, just
before going to bed, but not afterwards ; there is always a warder in attend-
ance.

2584. The change from the third class to the first class is entirely at your
own option, is it not ?

Yes, except that I have the sanction of the visitor ; the visitor may look
into these things.

2.585. It is not necessary that it should go before the visitor before it is
done ?

No.

2586. Therefore, you can abrogate the hard labour of some as soon as you
choose ?

Yes.

2587. Lord Steward.'] The prisoners in your prison are of a very dif-
ferent class, are they not, from the ordinary criminals and convicts in a county
prii-on r

Very diff rent.

2588. Therefore, the same separation is not necessary in your case as it is
in the case of convict prisons ?

Certainly not.

2.589. Earl of Dudley.] \ou mean by that that they are not habitual cri-
minals ?

They are not habitual criminals ; I have none in my prison who have been
committed for any offences against society.

2-,Q0. Duke of Marllmrouyh.'] What are the offences for which they are
generally committed ?

Desertion, absence without leave, and breaking leave are the principal offences;
and there are some in for insubordination, and striking their superior officers.

2.501. Earl Cathcart.'\ Is the shot drill always in the open air?
Not when it rains ; they are under cover then.

2592. Are they in sheds ?
Yes, they are covered over.

2,593. Are they open at the side ?

Yes, there are windows ; the shed was not built for that purpose, but I have
appropriated a shed for that object.

2594. Karl of Diidki/.] It is rare, is it not, for yoii to have a man a second
timer

Out of COO I have had about 10 recommitments only.

2.595- Earl of Durie.] But you have only had a year's experience, have
you ?

Yes ; but there are many stationary ships in England from all the different
(37. 7.) ' G G 2 guardships

236

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BE^,FORE THE

26th March 1863.

Captain guardships, from which I get the greatest number of men ; and I have only

C. M. Luckrqfi. iiad 10 re-commitments in one year.
R. s.

2.596. Earl of Romney.'] Are they sent to you from all parts:

Yes, from all parts of England, and from abroad as well.

2597. Are they sent to you from Pembroke and Sheerness ?
Yes, from Pembroke, Chatham, Sheerness, Woolwich, and so on.

2.598. Marquess of Salisburr/.~\ Have you the power given you by the regula-
tions of recommending a prisoner for the remission of a portion of his sentence,
and have you ever done so ?

Yes ; I have done so on three different occasions, and it has been acceded to.

'J599. Have you found that that has proved a beneficial power ?
Yes, I think it is a very beneficial power, and it stimulates the men very
much.

2600. To whom does the application for that remission go ?
To the Admiralty.

2601 . Do they send down the permission without any inquiry ?
It has never been refused yet, on the recommendation of the visitors.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Thursday, April 16th,

One o'clock.

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 237

Die Jovis, 16' Apnlis 1863.

LORDS PRESENT:

Lord President.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Malmesbury.
Eail ofRoM.NEY.
Earl of Dudley.

Earl Cathcaut.
Viscount Eversley.
Lord Wodehouse.
Lord Wensleydale.
Lord Lyveden.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY, in the Chair.

Evidence on
Prison Discipline.

WILLIAM MERRY, Esquire, is called in, and examined as follows : w. Merry, Esq.

2602. YOU are Chairman of the Visiting Justices of the county gaol of Berk i^th April 1863.
shire, at Reading, are you not r

Yes.

2603. Is that a gaol and a house of correction also ?
Yes.

2604. Whiit is the average number of the prisoners in the gaol ?
About 130.

2605. What species of labour have you in that gaol 'i

I think it has been a good deal disputed whether we have any labour at all ;
but, in point of fact, we have labour or employment for every man, as prescribed
by the 2d & 3(1 Vict. c. 5G, s. A. The words of that section are, " Labour or
employment." It had been made a matter of complaint against us, under the
imagination that we had no hard labour in Reading Gaol, as prescribe -i by the
Act.

2606. You are allowed by that section, are you not, to make such rules for
the separate confinement of the prisoners, and for their employment, as maybe
dictated by the Secretary of State .''

Yes ; that has been going on, ever since the year 1844, under my personal
cognizance.

2607. And what employment or labour have you in Reading Gaol ?

I think that the nearest approach to labour may be called grinding our own
wheat. We use single-handed mills in preference to the joint mill, which a
number of men work at, and of course a large number of them are shufflers. We
employ single-handed mills, and the men grind their own corn so much a day,
which is converted into Ijread afterwards by a baker, who is also on the establish-
ment ; and it may be worth the while of noble Lords, who are interested in their
own counties to know, that 1 think we save very nearly, upon an average, 100 /.
a year, besides getting valuable labour, not penal labour. Our mills are single-
handed ; every one does his own work, and there can be no shuffling.

aGo8. Do they do it in their own cells ?

No ; we have built separate cells, well lighted, and with a free current of air, so
that a man may have the advantage of a change of cell and more free air than he
gets in his ordinary cell.

(37. 8.) G G 3 2609. Does

238 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

W. Merry, Esq. 2609. Does eveiy man work at those mills?

16th A~wi 186 '^^^^y ^^^^ *^^'^'^" t^^''"^ '■> "ot as a labour for so many hours, but just so h^ng as

" ^" ^' we imagine that it may cl) thom good. What we call our punishment is a man's

being shut up doing nothing; that is the real sting; every hour that they are

taken out of their cell is a relaxation or relief.

2610. How many mills have vou?
Seven or eight, I think.

2611. And is that sufficient to employ the average number of prisoners ?
With the addition of the pumping, it is ; we have a force-pump, which is made

to carry the water up to the highest part of the building.

2ti]2. How many hours per day are you obliged to grind the mills in order to
furnish a sufficient quantity of flour r

It is a long time, but the same man does not grind the whole quantity ; they
take it by turns ; tliey are employed at the mill for the sake of exercise, to keeji
them in their muscular condition, and in good health, and for no other purpose.
When one man has been working suliiciently long at the mill, we put another man
in his place.

2613. Are you able to grind tlie whole of the corn which you require ?
Yes, entirely.

261,^. Assnming your average of 130 [irisoners, how many Ixiurs a dav of
labour are necessary to grind the requisite quantity of corn ?

I do not recollect just at this jnomenl, but it is very slow work. It would not
be profitable in our private establishments to set up a handmill.

2615. J.ord President^ Could you give the Committee any approximation as
to the amount of labour ; or could you say what numlx-r of hours any one man is
employed in the day at this work r

Lord Carnarvon had a time-table from the go"\ ernor of our gaol ; and as his
Lordship had it, I did not bring my own time-table ; therefore, I cannot answer
the question jjrecisely.

2616. Earl of i?07?;«^?/.] If a man is sentenced to four months' imprisonment
in the House of Correction with hard labour, what is done A\ith him ?

He has, perhaps, rather longer to jmrap, and rather longer to grind. But we
value the sentence of hard labour in the old Acts as giving us an advantage in
dealing with the man as regards the discipline of the prison itself ; a man sentenced
to !iard labour may be treated with more peremptory decision than a man who is not
sentenced to hard labour ; that is the only advantage. I hope I shall be Ibrgiven
for making use of the expression, but the question of what hard labour really is has
never yet been defined. We used to have the treadmill ; we were the first county
to have the treadmill, and, I am hajipy to say, we were the first to give it up,
finding it a most useless mistake. U'e never knew \\ hat it was to make a man better,
and we never knew what it was to punish a man, the simj)le ])r()of being that the same
man tame back to the same treadmill a dozen or iwenty times. It was self-
evident that the sooner we gave up such a useless mode of ])unisl:ing the men the
better. ^\ hen we built our se])arate cells and our new gaol, I happened to l)e a
visiting jiistice ; and mc established this great fact, that separation is the basis of
all ])ri-on discipline. When the men are all congregated together you can do
nothing with them ; but get a man shut up in a separate cell, and I do believe you
nuiy do a great deal \uth that man. At the time of visiting the gaol 1 may have
been considered jierhaps a little prejudiced, and so I asked a Committee of the
whole countv, consisting of our Members of Parliament and the principal magis-
tracy, to 1)1' good enough to tell me what i Mas to do with a man shut uj) within
four walls ; and after considering the matter for a coujjle of hours, they said,
"Mr. Merry, we believe we must leave you to do the best you can." None of us
knew a bit about the matter. '1 hen it was that we found that, jiractically, the
problem worked itself out. I felt it to be a vote of confidence in nie on the
part of my brother nuigistrates. When we shut up a man in his ceil, the
first he did was to sav, " For Cod's sake give me somethin"; to do : 1 cannot bear
to be here by myself!" We then gave him a hook, and if he said, " 1 am no
scholar; I cannot read," we then asked him, " Would yon like to learn to read f
and his rei)ly was, " Anything, sir, sooner than be here by myself; I do not care

how

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 239

how hard tlie work is ! " Then we said, Tliat is one point estabhslied ; if we can W. Merry, Esq.
get sucli a man to read the Bible, of couise it must give him better advice than ^ . ' ~
anything that we could say to him. I recollect a special instance of a man who ^^' ^'

had read half through his Bible in a fortnight ; whether that man was the better
for it afterwards, of course I do not dare to say ; but it is presumable that tlie
cause and effect ^(\ together. That was really the history of our separate system,
combined with corrective instruction in Reading Gaol.

2617. 'ihen the Committee are to understand that the first step in carrying out
a sentence of hard labour was, to ])ut a man in a separate cell, and give him
nothing to do /

We have always fought very stoutly, and I liope i-espectfully, against what i.s
called hard labour. We have ali\ays asked, what is hard labour? I do
not believe in it; I believe that it is a mistake. For 16 years the result of our
system has been a diminution of crime, which is somewhat remarkable. Knowing
that I should appear before your Lordships to-day, I prepared last night an
account of the dirference in the number of prosecutions at assizes and sessions,
and it was evident from the figures tliat our separate and corrective system was
telling upon the county ; the diminution of crime would evidently appear by the
smaller number of prosecutions for crime at the assizes and sessions. We
abolished our treadwheel when we opened our new gaol.

2618. You say that you find that hard labour is a mistake; you mean that
hard labour does not produce any good result?

Yes, that is the inference which we draw from the same man coming back a
dozen times.

261 Q. At the time the sentence of the Court was that you should put the man
to hard labour?

Yes, of course it was so.

2620. Earl of Dudley.'] Then the Committee are to understand that you do
not carry out the sentence of the Court?

Latterly? we have not done so.

2621. That is to say, you give them no conifmlsory hard labour ?
I do not believe that you can compel a man to work.

2622. You do not, as a matter of fact, carry out the sentence that the law has
passed upon the man ?

1 should answer that question better if I knew what, in your Lordship's view,
constitutes hard labour.

2623. You have been asked, what means you have of carrying out hard-labour
sentences in the case o.f those who are sentenced to a term of hard labour, and
you answer that by savins that you have no wheel, but that you have certain
cranks by which you grind your own corn ?

I must ask your Lordship to distinguish between cranks that do work, and
others which are merely penal work.

2624. By penal you mean unproductive, do you not r
Yes,

262.5. You have in your gaol a certain number of cranks whicii grind corn ?
Yes ; certainly.

2626. Are they all separate ?
Yes ; they are all separate.

2627. So that every man must do his own portion of work ?
Yes. " ^

2628. Is that hard laliour?

Yes ; for the time it is, certainly.

2620. Do not you find that you very soon grind corn enough for the require-
ments or tiie gaol ?

That is a question upon which I should be afraid of misleading the Committee;
1 cannot answer it accurately from memory.

(S'^-s-) G g4 2630. Is

240 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

W. Metry, Esq. 2630. Is it iiot very often the case that you are obliged to go on ^vith those

cranks Avhich really are, in your own language, penal, namely, doing no productive

i6th Apiii 1863. ^^.Qi-j^ foi- the time being r

" The cranks in our gaol Mould be employed to grind corn.

2631 . Therefore, if there is no corn to grind, there is no hard labour even with
those cranks /

A portion of the labour Ayould cease for that day, and the men would be told
to pump water for the tank : and they are also em])loyed in mat-making and oakum
picking.

2632. That is industrial occupation ; but keeping ourselves entirely to the
question of hard labour, do I rightly understand you to say, that if sufficient corn
is ground the men are no longer employed upon those cranks ?

They are not.

2633. There being no wheel, and the cranks not being wanted for grinding
corn, there is therefore no hard labour being done in the prison at that time ?

'^rhen we come back to the definition of what is hard labour. I do not know
whether your Lordship would consider mat-making hard labour.

2634. According to my notions it is not. A very distinct line must be drawn
betAveen industrial occupation and hard labour, because, to my mind, there is but
one class of hard labour, and that is either the Avheel or the crank ? — Perhaps I
might take the liberty of saying, that the crank has proved a failure ; and there
are two remarkable cases of that, one at Birmingham and the other at
Leicester. You may tell a man that he shall work so many turns or have no
breakfast, as was the case at Birmingham, so many turns or no dinner, or, so
many turns or no supper ; but it was found that, first of all, there is something in
the Saxon blood A\liicli every now and then rebels, and you cannot make a man
"work ; and then what are you to do? At Birmingham the food was withdrawn,
and the men at last became so ill that some of them died. There was a great
inquiry into the matter in a court of law, and the result was that the governor
"was sentenced to three months' imprisonment.

2635. Cluiirnum.'\ In the gaol at Reading you have, as one form of hard
labour, the pumping of water up to a tank, have you not ?

Yes.

2636. Is that done by a wheel ?

By a long handle, at which 10 men work.

2637. Is it the common mode of what we call crank labour r
Yes.

2638. How many prisoners can it employ ?
Ten at a time.

2639. How many hours a day do you reckon that they work :
I have not a time-table with me, therefore I cannot say.

2640. Earl of Dudley.] The labour at the crank is not consecutive, is it?
!No ; each man takes his turn.

2641 . For how long ; for 10 minutes ?

More than that ; they work as long as it is required, but of course that very
much (Upends on the number of jirisoners in the gaol. The work has to be done ;
if there are a few, of course they must be worked longer ; if there are many, of
course they would be worked a shorter time.

2642. Chmrnuin.'] \\\\\ you have the kindness to send in to the Committee a
Return of tiie employment of the prisoners in the Reading Gaol ?

I will do so.

2643. Earl of Dudley.'] You have stated that 130 is the average number of
prisoners that you have in Reading Gaol. Out of that number, I presume a large
majority are sentenced to hard labour .'

i daresay it is so.

2644. Can

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 241

2644. Can you tell the Committee what proportion of those men so lying in JV. Merry, Esq.
gaol under sentence of hard labour are occupied in anything approaching to hard ^^^^ ^^^j, ^gg^
labour during the day ?

I do not think, if I have any idea of what your Lordship means by hard labour,
that we have hard labour ; I think tliat we have the same labour that there is in
other gaols, but 1 do not know any gaol in which hard labour exists.

2645. In dealing with this particular case of the Reading Gaol, I will draw a
line between any industrial occupation and such employments as you have been
speaking of, namely, grinding corn or pumping water. How many of those 130
men who are lying there under sentence of hard labour would be so employed
during the day ?

I am afraid I cannot answer that question.

2640". Lord Wodehoitse.] Do you know what proportion of those 130 prisoners,
on the average, would be sentenced to hard labour, and be fit for it ; I mean such
hard labour as the tread wheel ; would there be more than half?

I am answering at random, but I should say that more than half would be fit.

2647. What do you mean by the expression "corrective instruction".^

We rely entirely, first of all, upon the vis inertice, the irksomeness of the cell
making a man desirous of learning something which he did not know before ; and
by "corrective instruction" perhaps we should say "moral instruction." In the
case of a man who comes in as a thief, the first question that we try to get into
his head is, why should you steal, and why should you not steal ; we try to get
him to think, and to accomplish the great fact of knowing that " honesty is the
best policy."

2648. Lord Steward.'] Do you apply precisely the same rule to prisoners sen-
tenced for short sentences as to those imprisoned for long terms?

^Vitll this diiference, that in the case of short sentenced prisoners, for instance
those sentenced to a month's imprisonment, we do not take pains to teach them
reading ; it is impossible that a man can learn to read in a month, but a man may
be taught to think in a nionth.

2649. Lord Wodehouse.'] Do you look at all to deterring the criminal, or do
you look merely to reforming him ?

I have not great faitli, I confess, in deterring criminals. I should like to sub-
mit to your Lordships by and by the question of diet, which I believe to be the
only shape in which a deterring influence can be brought to bear upon them. I
do not believe that men will ever be deterred by anything in the shape of punish-
ment ; that is my experience.

2650. Lord Presidefit.] Did you not state that solitary confinement in a cell
was deterring ?

I believe it is the most terrible punishment to a man, but every hour that he is
taken out of that cell is a relief; a man would jump mast high to get upon the
treadwheel rather than be confined in a solitary cell.

26,51. Are you aware whether a large number of vagrants pass through your
prison in the course of the winter?

I think there has been an increase of them this year, but when we first opened
our new gaol at Reading, under the separate system, a deputation of magistrates
of Buckinghamshire, our adjoinino- county, came over to see what we were doing,
and tliey said frani<ly that tliey were obliged to build a new gaol in Buckingham-
shire, for that all the scamps were going there because they did not like our system
at Reading. I do not believe that there is anything which vagrants or tramps,
who I consider are the very worst class of all criminals (they are living lies), dread
more than the separate cell.

2b.-,2. Lord Wodehouse.l ^^ that consistent Avith what you just now stated,
that you do not look to tlio deterring efl^cct upon the criminal ?

I have no great faith in it, but I fear I have expressed myself very improperly
if I have said that we do not look to the deterring effect, because I am going to
ask the Committee to consider the question about diet, from which I hope more
than from anything else.

2653. But if, as you have stated, the effect of establishing those separate cells
(37. 8.) II H at

242 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEIOHE THE

Ji . Merry, Esq. ^{ Reaflin,2^ is such as to induce vagrants who would otheruise probably have come

iGth ^m^iseq "^**^ Htadino- prison, to go rather to Buckinghamshire, where they would be in a

" prison in which there is no separate system, does not that statement go to prove

that the separate system has a direct deterring effect, and a very serious deterring

effect ?

I have always hojjed that it has, but 1 am afraid to boast too much of it.

2t)5^. Loi'd President.'] In your system, you consider that the great power is
the separate confinement r
Yes.

26.55. And to those who complain of it, you are in the habit of giving some
means of occupation ; for instance, in some cases you propose to them to read the
Bible ?

Yes ; we give them instruction, generally.

2ri.-,6. And some avail themselves of it to the extent, that one man whom you
have mentioned, read nearly half the Bible througli in a fortnight :
Yes ; that was after the opening of our new gaol.

2('i.',7. With those who say they cannot read, and to whom, therefore, that
occupation is of no avail, what do you do ?

My question to them is, "Would you like to learn?" the answer is, "Any-
thing, sir, sooner than be here by myself doing nothing" and then the schoolmaster
is brought into action.

2658. Then, all those who do not know how to read, learn to read in your
gaol r

Yes; in two or three months they learn to read, or, at any rate, they learn to
think, which, I consider, is a very important point.

2659. Lord Steicnrd.'] Hou* do you set about that process ?
There are the chaplain and two schoolmasters to attend to that.

2660. Lord JVodehousc-] Is not the result of your system this, that in the first
place, you establish se]>arate cells, which have a deterrent effect upon criminals,
and then you ])rocecd to neutralise that deterrent effect, by giving them occupa-
tion (which makes the separate system not terrible to them), with the society of
two schoolmasters aud the chaplain to beguile the time r

It was one of the first terrors thrown before us, that by shutting a man uj) in a
se])arate cell we should induce insanity. A great experiment had l)een tried by
the Americans. In their endeavour to do away Mith secondary punishments, they
shut up 80 of their worst criminals in })rison in Wall-street, New York. The
cells, were, in point of fact, living graves, seven feet long, just high enough to
stand in, and just wide enough to lie down in, and the men were without instruc-
tion, and without any communication. In ten months, that system was given
up ; five men died, and two or three went mad. But the importance of tiic expe-
riment to us is this (and it is really worth submitting to your Lordships), that so
far from even the terror of such a terrible exjterimcnt as that affecting those men,
out of those 80 original prisoners who were discharged, 14 were re committed
very soon after ; it had not deteri-ed them, and you will not deter by terror.

2661. Earl of Z)i<r/%.] Will you define for the Committee what you mean by
the separate system ?

Shutting up a man in a sei)arate cell, to begin m ith ; yon cannot force men
to read, or to do anything- ; but, such is tlie irksomeness of the cells that they
insensibly do it of their own accord. I had a remarkable case of a Jew who was
committed for a year, and all we did in that case was to put a Hebrew Bible in
his cell, in order that he ndght read it. He could not help himself; he did read
it, and, after a while, he asked nu; whether he was at liberty to read our New
Testament. I said, " By all means ; it is open to every one here." lie read it,
aiul it broke him down ; he had never seen his own Bible ; he had only read in
the synagogue what they call the Talnuul ; and whcm he came to read the Old
Tesiament, aud compared the ja-ophecies in the Old Testament with their fulfil-
ment in the New, he became a Christian, and wa-< baptised ; and he begged
to be allowed to receive the Sacrament. 1 asked him what he siiould do when he
left the prison. I found he was a mineral tooth-maker in London, and he said
that he was not afraid at all, but that if he went to the synagogue he shoidd be

almost

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCI PLIXE. 243

almost murdered; tli.at was the result, of the separate cell. All the argument and W. Mimj, Esq.
all the persuasion upon e;irth would have had no weight with that man ; but the „ . ~ '
irksomeness of his cell compelled him to do souiething. If we had put him upon
the treadwheel, he would have been a Jew now.

26t)2. Separate from what?

Man from man ; thej never see each other to know each other, or to speak to
each other.

266 3. By the separate system you only mean separation of prisoner from prisoner?
Just so.

2664. Not the secluded system in which a man is shut up entirely ?
No ; quite the contrary.

2665. I ask that question in order that your answer may be recorded here, for
this simple reason, that a great many people have an idea that the separate system
is simply a secluding of the prisoners entirely ; whereas, the separate systein is
only, as you have stated in your answer, the separation of prisoner Irom
prisoner?

Yes, from evil communications.

2666. As for anything like separation during the day it does not exist, inas-
much as, what with the gaoler and what with the surgeon, and what with the
people who come there, the warders, and so forth, a man is never so Ion"-
separated from his kind as a studious man ordinarily is ?

Just so ; the solitary system does not exist in England.

2667. Lord Wodp.house.'] When a person is sentenced to, say a fortnight's
imprisonment, what means have you of punishing that man ?

If I bad my own way I should shut him up in his cell, and let him do nothing
in the shape of work or exercise every day. That is punishment enough ; nobody
knows what the punishment of a separate cell is who has not experienced it.

2668. Do you think that for very short terms, where no danger would result to
a man's mind, the most deterring punishment would l)e simply to shut him up in
a separate cell without employment ?

Yes, undiluted by any employment or even instruction. That would be a
terrible thing, but he would not go mad if it were merely for a very short term,
as the question implies.

2669. Chainnau.~\ You stated that your hard labour consists of grinding corn
and pumping. What other employments have you in Reading Gaol .-

Mat making, picking oakum, gardening, cleaning and washing; I make the
men wash their own clothes. Some years ago I was struck by the fact of the
women being all em])loyed in washing for the other prisoners, and having no time
for instruction or iniprejvement in any way, so I established a plan by which all
the men take their turn in washing, but they all go into separate compartments ;
they never see each other or speak to each other, but they wash their own clothes
and whatever there is to be washed.

2670. Lord President.'] Do you separate them in chapel ?

Yes, always ; whatever they do in chapel they are always separate.

267 K Earl of Rom ney.'] Does that mean that they are in separate compart-
ments ?

Yes, in separate compartments or Httle stalls.

2672. Chairman.] Are they separate in school ?
Yes, the chapel forms the school.

2673. Do you work the prisoners in classes in the school ?
Yes, in four classes.

2674. How do you preserve the separation with the different classes ?

The chapel is a semi-circle, and the whole space is divided by stalls just big
enough for a man to sit in, and he can see nothing but the schoolmaster over the
top of his stall.

(S'- 8.) H H 2 2675. Lord

244 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

W. Merry, Esq. 2675. Lord Wodthouse.'] Do you find that they attempt to communicate with

— ~ each other by sin-ns ?

iCth April 1863, Occasionally, but no communication can pass of any consequence.

2676. You have not found anv inconvenience arising from that circumstance?
No.

2677. Chairman.'] Uo you require from them a certain quantity of work ^

No.

267S. Do they work as long as they jjlcasc?
They work as long as they are told to work.

2679. ^"'^ if they refuse to work, what then r

They never have refused ; we never have the punishinent-cranks, as they are
called, or the shot drill, or anything of tliat kind Avhich a man might refuse to do.

2680. Are the Connuittee to understand that you never liave to punish them
for not working ?

Not for not working. They may commit faults of various kinds ; and then I
find that the punishment of all punishments is to reduce the diet ; to take a man's
dinner away, for instance.

2681. Have you any dnrk colls?

AVe have dark cells ; but I think we have not used them for nine years.

2682. Have you ever had recourse to corporal punishment?

I do not think that I have flogged on the average more than one man a year
during 25 years ; but I should be very sorry indeed that the iiunishinent of flog-
ging should be taken away, for I am sure that although it should be tiie last
resource, yet as the Inst resource, it is a valuable punishment, for I never applied
it but with immediate success, though not to an amount of more than two dozen
stripes.

2683. Earl of Dudley.] Have you ever been called upon to flog a man twice ?
Never ; or else I should have felt that the punishment had not succeeded.

2684. Earl of Romney.] With regard to the amount of hard labour which is
prescribed, I gather from what you said before that you are guided rather by
what is of advantage to a man's health than by any consideration of enforcing
hard labour ?

Yes.

2685. The whole object being to give him enough exercise to keep up his
health?

Yes; we want to kee|) up his muscular power.

2686. That is the whole object ?
Yes ; I must admit it to be so.

2687. C]tuirmmiP\ You stated that the prisoners are employed in mat making?
Mat making, oakum picking, gardening, and washing, cleaning, and scrubbing;

in i'act, all the necessary cleaning belonging to the prison.

2(188. Lord Wodchousc] Do you employ them in weaving or carpet making?
They make carpets of cocoa-nut fibre, but they are not employed in weaving;
we have only mat rooms.

20 8g. Viscount Everslei/.] You state that you employ them in cleaning the
prison ?

Yes, in scrubbing and in washing; they have to do whatever they are told to
do. If a prisoner is a painter, or a carpenter, he is employed in doing whatever
is necessary in that way.

2690. Lord Steward.] Should you not be afraid that b}- fiequcntly depriving
the prisoners of food, you might lower their condition ?

I believe that tlie best thing on earth tiiat we can do, is to reduce the whole
system of diet from first to last. I recollect when we had for nine years 40
Government convicts to discipline previous to transportation ; of course, we liad
some rou'di characters to deal with, and one <lay I was obliged to say to one man
who was a very rough character indeed, " Your stomach is getting above your

head,

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 245

head, you must have bread and Mater for a fortnight." At the end of the first /f. Mcmi, Esq.

week he was down on his knees, begging to be put upon his diet again, and I did

so ; but the reduction of diet tells instantly. I was very glad not to insist on the ^^''' ''^P"' ^'^^3-
fortnight, because a week was sufficient; but it shows even with a ruffian of that
kind how immediately the animal fails him when his food is reduced.

2691, ChairmmO With regard to self instruction, how long would you devote
a prisoner 10 self instruction during the day ?

I am afraid not so long as 1 should like ; the whole of the labour of the gaol
must be done, and while tliat is doing the man is out of his cell, and is not avail-
ing himself of the instruction that 1 should like him to receive. In short term
committals, of course we can hope but very little frcm that.

2^92. What do you understand by self instruction?

At one time our chaplain ;.doplcd a very useful sys(em of making the prisoners
learn by heart. It was the idea that a prisoner shut up in a separate cell would
go mad, but I said, "No; ]iour a stream of Avliolesome thought through that
man's mind, and he Avill not go mad.'' It ^vas supposed that the best way of doing
that was, to get them to learn something by heart, and they learned half a dozen
or a dozen sentences a day. It was a little occu])ation for those who could not
be visited immediately by the chaplain or the schoolmaster; and such was the
effect, that in more than one instance I recollect a Government convict learning
the whole of the New Testament by heart.

2693. Earl of Dudley.'] That was a long sentence, was it not ?

It was only a year. Such is the severity of the separate cell, that whenever
we have our assizes, I feel it my duty, as an old visiting justice, to represent to
the judges that a year's imprisonment is quite as much as is advisable with regard
to any particular individual, and that if they want to punish him more than tliat,
they must come to penal servitude, and they invariably thanked me for the infor-
mation, because gaols vary so much in their mode of discipline, that no judge
knows what he is committing a man to do.

2694. Are there any such sentences as for three years ?
Yes, we have had some in our saol.

269,5. I thought that the law allowed of nothing over two years' imprisonment
in a county gaol ?

J am very glad of it, if it is so.

26q6. I thought we came to penal servitude after that ; I know of no crime
that is punished with more than two years' imprisonment ?

Perhaps my mind is going back to the former time. One year, I think; is quite
sufficient. The first year is the severest part, I believe, of any penal servitude
sentence.

2697. You are an advocate, are you not, for shorter and sharper sentences ?
Not for shorter sentences, I think.

2698. Eighteen months is what is generally given as the maximum ; but you
are for reducing it to a year, and making it really a sharper punishment ?

Yes.

2699. Rather than being obliged by a number of circumstances to relax the
discipline of the gaol, and keep a man for 18 months, you w'ould prefer to keep
up the discipline for one year ?

Most undoubtedly.

2700. It is admitted, is it not, that you must relax the discipline according to
the length of the sentence ; you could not keep up the same rigour during 18
months, as you do during three months ?

Not as a system ; we have done so, and our i)risoners' healths have not been
affected ; but as a system, I should not dare to propose it. I am satisfied that
a year is a jninishment so severe, that if you cannot deal ^itli a man under the
separate system in that year, you had better try something else, such as penal
servitude. The same medicine, of course, does not agree with all constitutions ;
but it is a very severe punishment.

(37. 8.) II H 3 2701. Lord

246 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

iV. Merry, Esq, 2701. Lord WodehoKse.'] Are not the terms of imprisonment in the county

raols very much shorter than they used to be ?

iCth April 1863. ^ Yes.

270.:. Do yon think that your svstem, us a system, produces a beneficial effect
upon prisoners s^ontenced for less than three montiis r

Yes, better than anytiiing that 1 have ever known before ; better than anything
in the shape of hard labour that I have heard of in other gaols.

2703. Earl of Z)«f//('y.] You have in the Reading gaol, as a matter of course,
certain dietaries tiiat have been approved of by the Home Secretary, have you
not ?

Yes.

2704. Hard labour being presumed to be carried out when the sentence of the
law to that effect is passed, there is a higher dietary, is there not, for those who
are condemned to hard labour, than for those who are not ?

Yes.

270.1. You do not, according to the habit of your gaol, make a man carry out
the sentence of hard labour ; but you give him the benefit of the higher dietary,
which supposes hard labour ?

No, we do not. {Vide note, p. 255.)

2706. Is this table of diet that I have in my hand sanctioned by the Secretary
of State ?

This was sanctioned by the Secretary of State many years ago, contrary to all
our earnest remonstrances, and I do hope that under the present regime we shall
be heard, if we make one more effort to have it reduci d ; it is really monstrous.

2707. Earl of Romnei/.] Is not that the diet wh ich was prepared by the jus-
tices, and sent up to the Secretary of State ?

No, just the reverse.

2708. C//ain)ia>J.] When was that diet table fixed ?

I tliink it was in Sir James Graham's time ; it was some 15 years ago, perhaps ;
that is our existing dietary.

2709. Earl oi Homney.] 1 presume tlaat that dietary is fixed according to the
lengtli of time that a man is in j^rison t

Yes, five different tables.

2710. Then this table is the law, in fict, within Reading gaol?

I am not sure about the law, for 1 understand that in other counties the sub-
mission to the Secretary of State's dietary is not perfect.

2711. Is it not the fact that the Secretary of State could not prescribe the
dietary, l)ut that it was consented to by the visiting justices, and was afterwards
a])])roved by him as the dietary of Reading gaol ?

It is the dietary of Reading gaol, but it was not approved of by the magistracy
of the county.

2712. But it is the dietary prescribed by law for the Reading gaol?
By the Home Office.

2713. We may suppose that when they prescribed dietary, they proceeded
accordino- to the law ?

Yes.

2714. Lord President.'] Is not this the case, that l)y law the justices are
obliged to prepare rules, and those rules arc certified by the Secretary of State, if
he ap])royes of them r

Whether the initiation is with the Secretary of State or the quarter sessions I
am not sure.

271.5. Are you aware what in the time of Sir James Graham was the diet pro-
posed by the visiting justices to him ?

There was a long correspondence with the Hotuc Office ; but the end of it
was, that we could not prevail upon Sir James Graham to give way; and so we
bowed to him.

2716. Did

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIl'LINE. 247

2716. Did he put aside the dietary that you proposed ?

Sir James Graham, or the Secretary of State of the day, was the author of our • ^^^i"''yi ^'«J-
existing- diet, which we complain grievously against ; we think it is a great deal 16th Apnl 1863.
too high.

2717. Earl of Romnei/.] I find that liere in Class 3 there is a certain scale of
dietary ordered for prisoners employed at hard labour for terms exceeding 21 days,
but not exceeding six weeks. Class 4 is for prisoners employed at hard labour
for terms exceeding six weeks, but not more than four months. Different scales
are prescril)ed for those classes ; but, practically, in Reading gaol you give the
same diet to each of those classLss ?

No ; we do not consider a rnan sentenced to hard labour who has not anything
in the shape of hard labour to do ; he does not deserve a diet intended to keep up
a man in i'ull vigour at hard work, and he does not get it. (Vide note*, p. 255.)

2718. At tlie same assizes or the same sessions one man is sentenced to an
imprisonment not exceeding six weeks, and another man is sentenced to four
montlis' imprisonment ; therefore, by this dietary, one man ought to have more
food than the other ; but in the case of tlic man sentenced to four months' impri-
sonment, you chose not to pul him to what the law calls hard labour, and, there-
fore, you dispense with the dietary |)rescribed for that class?

The different classes have different dietaries. Your Lordship will find in the
margin of that paper Avhat the solid amount of food of each class is. In Class 1
the amount of solid food during the week is 140 ounces; in Class 2, it is 204
ounces ; 254 solid ounces is the allowance in Class 3, and 264 in Class 4 ; but
then comes the class which we protest so strongly against.

2719. One man being sentenced to six weeks' hard labour, and, therefore,
being entitled to 254 ounces in Class 3, and another man in Class 4 being entitled
to 264 ounces, if you do not choose to put the latter man to hard labour, is it the
fact that you feel yourself justified in reducing the number of ounces ?

Yes, certainly.

2720. Earl of Dudley.'] And you do it, do you not?
Yes. {Vide note, p. 255.)

2721. Chairman.'} That is to say, you assume a dispensing power over that
diet .'

We have assumed that power.

2722. Lni-d President.] In general, is it your principle to do what you think
best at Reading gaol, or to abide by the law?

I venture to think that we are very obedient to the law, except upon that one
point, on which there exists such a diflerence of opinioii, namely, as to the defi-
nition of hard labour. I do not pretend to say that any man in Reading gaol
undergoes hard labour, but I believe that we have the same labour that there
is in other gaols where there arc no cranks.

2723. Lord Steivard.~\ You stated that you think the existing scale of dietary
too high. Are the medical officers of your prison of the same opinion ?

I hope it is not treason to say that I have not profound faith in medical opinions.
We have a surgeon, but that question has never come to a discussion. When we
were remonstrating with a former Secretary of State upon the subject of the
dietary I suppose we must have had some medical opinions, but when one knows
what the army and navy have, and v\ hat the union workhouses in the county have,
it does not want a medical man to tell us what a prisoner requires in gaol.

2724. Earl of Dudlcij.] Practically, do you not find that your surgeon is omni-
potei>t in tlie gaol ?

No; if a surgeon of a gaol tells the visiting justices that he will have this and
he will iiave that, or his patient will suffer, we must bow, of course.

2725. If he happens to be one of those who wisli very much to reduce the
labour of the prisoners, and to add to their diet, he has the power of doing it if he
chooses, has he not ?

Yes ; but I should appeal to the Secretary of State in such a case. I should
not take liis dictum.

(37.8.) H H 4 2726. Earl

248 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

W. Merry, Esq. 27 26. Earl of Ronmei/.'] What could the Secretary of State do when you

~ — ap]U'aled to him ?

iC.il. April 1863. J ^^^.^ g,^y jjg ^^^y,^ jjp^^ ,^^j^j^ gj^^^^g

2727. What can he do when he has heard them ?

I should ask leave to produce medical autliority against medical authority ;
doctors differ, and I know that I should succeed.

2728. Lord Woclehouse.] Could not the visitino- magistrates represent to the
court of quarter sessions ihe propriety of dismissing a surgeon ?

Yes. Perhaps I might mention that we only lately had an instance in which a
surgeon insisted upon giving the patients port wine. I am an old vice-president
of the Royal Berkshire Hosiiital, and I know that, for the last tliree or four years
we have found what is called African poit allowed by the London authorities, and
it is allowed by our medical statf at the Berkshire Hospital. Therefore it appeared
to me to be a monstrous thing that our felons siiould be better treated than our
poor patients in our county hospital ; and I remonstrated, and I s lid that those
men should not have ])ort wine at 4 s. a bottle when the same effect can be pro-
duced, and is produced, and has been produced for the last four years in our
county hospital by African port at one-fourth the price. We found that 12
hospitals in London were using it, and we brought the matter before the medical
staff of our hospital and they approved of it, and it has been a very important
saving ; it is given as a medicine, as so many ounces of jdiysic. I may say that
the surgeon of our gaol upon that occasion had the goodness to give way, or else
I should have brought the matter before the court of quarter sessions.

2720. Earl oi Diidlei/.^ Have you devoted yourself to the consideration of the
dietary ?

Yes, I have for some years past been very anxious indeed to consider the
dietary, and every other matter, in order to make Ueading gaol as perfect as we
could. We have been called a model gaol, and of course it bi'hoved us to keep
up our character, and especially with reference to the dietary, and therefore that
anomaly is something quite extraordinary. In our 12 unions in Berkshire (I am
speaking of 20 years ago, but pi'obably it is much about the same now) the average
amount of solid food given to our paupers was 254 ounces each in the week. So
far as the military diet given to me in 1843 tells me, it was only 200 ounces
instead of 254; the naval diet was 276 ounces, and the Reading gaol diet 334
ounces. How dare a surgeon of a gaol tell ns that that is necessary ? It
must be remembered that it is solid food, because the soup and the gruel are all
prepared by given quantities of 3 ounces of meal, 4 ounces of meat, and so many
ounces of potatoes ; I have reduced it all to a solid extract, and we have 334
ounces allowed for our criminals in Reading gaol.

2730. Chairman.'] Which class are you speaking of?

Of No. 5 ; those imprisoned for terms exceeding four months. I should beg
to submit that it is very doubtful whether, there beiug five diets, a man com-
mitted for four months should not begin with the first ; I should put him through
the several grades,

2731. Lord President.'] Supposing your colleagues agreed with yourself as to
an improved dietary, and it was approved of by tiie magistrates, would it not be
competent for you to send up to the Secretary of State to certify the new dietary ?

I sli.dl certainly propose to do so now, having heard that in Yorkshire a very
material reduction has been made, and ajiprovod of by the Secretary of State.

2732. Earl of Ronitiei/.] Have you never L)oked at the Act of Parliament to see
what mode could be devisinl, because that has been t\v; case ever since the dietary
has been compiled ; that is to say, you have the power to recommend a revision
of it to the court of quarter sessions, and to send it up to the Secretary of State
for his a])pr<)val ?

We did all we could in the time of a former Secretary of State, but lately, I
confess, we have not done so.

2733. That was aljout 15 years ago?
Yes.

2734. Lord President.'] Does not the fault rest with the visiting justices them-

selves,

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON' DISCIPLINE. 249

selves, if for a good many years past the dietary has been what you consider an ^^- Merry, Esq.
imperl'ect one ? „ ~ T

1 am afraid it does, I being one of the justices.

2735. Earl of Diidley.~\ Is not it your 0[)inion that, except in cases of sick-
ness, beef had much better never enter the gaol ?

I am almost afraid to give an opinion upon that point ; I am quite sure that
a great deal too much comes in, and that a man in prison gets what our labourers
out of doors never dream of getting; I do not suppose that our labourers ever get
anything but bacon.

2736. Chairman.'] You do not think it necessary that a prisoner should receive
a higher diet in comparison to what he would receive out of doors, in consequence
of tlie confinement ?

Certainly not.

2737. Are you of opinion that separate confinement has any deiiressing- effect
upon his bodily health ?

I think that it produces no effect upon his healtli which he has not fairly
subjected himself to. As a man sows, so he must reap. I have no notion of a
man coming into gaol to be cured, or to be built-up, as the doctors call it. If he
docs suffer, I should let him sufler. In the c;ise of a man sentenced to a short
imprisonment, such as your Lordships perfectly well know are the ordinary
sentences of imprisonment at quarter sessions and assizes, and petty sessions
namely, three weeks or two months, it is impossible that in that short time a
moderate diet, which is no worse than ho would get in a worl:hoiise, can seriously
injure him. His life may have been, and probably has been, a life of dissipation,
and he comes in with an impaired constitution, if he is an old offender ; but
generally speaking, our ordinary labourers can ailbrd to go upon half-rations just
as a ship's company does, or as a garrison does.

2738. For a short sentence, at least, you do not think that separate confine-
ment has so depressing an effect as to phice a prisoner in bad health ?

Not when modified by the mind and the body being reasonably employed ; that
makes just the whole difference. If that man were shut up by himself, doino-
nothing, I would not ask for a reduction of diet.

2739. 1^0 you think that his being out in the open air in any emplovment has
such an eilect as to prevent the necessity of so much food being given him r

Our men are employed out of doors in gardening for instance, according as the
case may be. 1 do not call that hard labour, but a gardener may do so ; it is
just the labour of an ordinary man.

2740. A noble Lord drew a distinction between hard labour and industrial
occupation ; in which would you include gardening, in industrial occupation or
hard labour ?

I do not profess to know what hard labour is.

2741. hord Li/vcden.] You stated, did you not, just now, that you did not
consider that there was anything like hard labour in Reading goal ?

No, nor in any gaol ; I do not know what it is.

2742. If there is nothing like hard labour in Reading gaol, is that a com-
pliance with the Act of Parliament, which prescribes hard labour for criminals ?

That term " hard labour," seems to have creiit into the Act of Parliament
before we knew what we now know ; I do not think that that word would be used
now.

2743- Do you think that you are complying with the Act of Parliament in
having no such thing as hard laljour in your gaol ?

We are complying with the last Act upon tiie subject, namely, the 2 & 3 Vict.,
c. 56; there is no such word as "hard labour" in that Act. I was examined
upon that point before the Committee, and they were good enough to see the
difference.

2744. Chainnnn.] Was the evidence which you refer to given when you were
examined before the Committee of the House of Lords in 184/ ?

No ; it was when I was examined before the Committee of the House of Com-
mons, subsequently.

(37. 8.) I I 2744* You

250 MINUTES OF VIEDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

IV. Men y Esq. 2744*. You were examined, were you not, before the Committee of tlie House

! ' of Lords in 1S47 ?

16th April 18G3. Yes.

274.5. Earl of Dudley^} Do you think that the health of a gaol could be
maintained without any meat of any sort except in the hosijital. I do not mean
of course that meat should not be converted into stock sou]), but 1 mean meat in
the form in which it is at present given r

Medically, I am informed that fat is necessary ; when you give bread and water,
for instance, only, you are liable to damage the man's constitutinn ; there must be
a little fat to induce digestion, but whether that answers the question with regard
to meat I am not sure; I should like very much to try it.

2746. Chairma}i.'\ Are you aware that in military prisons for a certain length
of time, 5G days 1 think, the prisoners have been kept altogether without
meat ?

No ; but I am very glad to hear it ; it is an argument in my favour if it
be so.

2747. Lord Vr^odeho^ise.'] I understood you to say that you thought the dietary
■was excessive for prisoners who were confined for short terms ; do you think,
looking at your diet in Reading gaol, that for class 1 or class 2 it would be
possible to reduce the diet ?

No ; it was classes 4 and 5 that I was objecting to.

2748. With reference to the 1st and 2d classes do you think it would be possible
to reduce the dietary with safety r

That is a question which I should be disposed to answer negatively. I should
not presume to find fault with those classes.

2749. Your answer refers rather to the 3d class, and those classes above
class 3 ?

Y'es ; class 3 is three ounces of cooked meat without bone on two days in the
week.

2750. Earl of jR(?OT«e'_y.] In Reading gaol, is the dietary of the first and second
classes adhered to ?

Yes, always all through, except in the case where there is a special allowance
for hard labour ; hard labour is not given, and, therefore, that allowance we do not
. make. (Firfe note, p. 255.)

2751. How is it regulated ? If I understand you aright, the first and second
class dietaries you adhere to ?

Yes; we follow them all, but we disapprove of them.

27.52. I am asking you not what you think, but what you do; do you really
carry out the first and second class dietaries?
Yes, we carry out all the live.

2753. A short time ago you stated that, in the case of a man who is sentenced
to hard labour, if you do not choose to put him to that hard labour, you reduce
his diet ?

Yes ; with that exception, we carry out the dietary.

27.54. In cases where men are sentenced to 21 days, six weeks, or four months,
all those are sentenced by the magistrate or judge to hard labour, and you say
that, in the first and second classes, you carry out those sentences truly with
regard to the dietary ?

Yes; all the way "through, the same principle would be acted ujion.

2755. if a man came in under a sentence for 21 days, if you have not that
labour tor him which you choose to call hard labour, \ou neither give him the
hard labour nor do you give him the dietary r

^\'e are governed in the diet by the regulation, where it is so much with hard
laltouv or so nnu h without. I do not think that the first and second classes say
anything about hard labour.

2756. Lord Woikhouse.'] In the second class it says, " One pint soup per week,
if at hard labour ;" do you diminish the dietary by one pint of soup per week, if
they are not at hard labour r

Whenever

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 251

Whenever there is .an extra allowance, on the as?um]ition of hard labour; we '*^- Merry, Etg
do not give it if tliere is not hard labour. ^5tl, ^p^y ,863.

•2757. Earl of Ronmcy.'] The alteration which you make is simply taking off that

which has been put in additional for hard labour ?

Yes.

2758. With that exception, you obey these rules ?

Yes.

2 7--i9. Lord Steward.] Are you prejmred (o specify tlie modific;ition of tlie
scale which you would ]iro])ose in the cases which you have adverted to ?

I should like to submit that no criminal in Reading gaol, or in any other gaol,
requires, (u- ought to have more than the same class of men would have in the
workhouse in his own county, whatever the habits of food are in that county ;
some have oatmeal, although "we have not ; some eac fresh meat, whereas, we eat
bacon in our county ; but wiiateverthe class of food sanctioned by authority for a
pauper in the worldiouse may be, I do submit, most respectfully, ought to be
quite enough for a prisoner in gaol. So closely do that class of prisoners follow
the amount of food given, that I recollect a young man being in Reading gaol for
the seventh time. I asked him how that was, and he said, " I like your victuals
best," which was an honest answer. They know the diet to an ounce, and where-
ever the food is best, that is the gaol that they would go to. If a man gets more
in the gaol than he does in the workhouse, he prefers the gaol.

•2760. Lord Stcirard.'] You answer applies, does it not, both to the quantity and
to the description of the food given ?

I have taken the weight as the b-st criterion ; a pint of soup may be indefinite,
but if a pint of soup or a pint of gruel is composed of certain ingredients, namely,
three ounces of oatmeal, and three oun-^es of meat, that is the weight.

27^1. Earl of Malmesbury.'] When you state that you wish to assimilate the
food to that which a man has in the workhouse, you mean that the food should
be of an analogous kind; you do not mean exactly the same food, because in my
county a great many people feed upon bacon ; but you are aware that bacon is
dearer than other meat, the price being actually more than that of nmtton ?

I mentioned that in diiierent counties the food of the country people varied, but
I would, as a rule, say this, that no person in a gaol should have better food : and
I should verv much prefer saying that he should have a lower class of food and
lower in quantity, than the same man would get in a workhouse.

•2762. Lord JVodthoitse.'] You Mould not think that it was necessary to give a
prisoner for breakfast "" one pint of cocoa, made of three quarters of an ounce of
flaked cocoa, or cocoa nibs, sweetened with three quarters of an ounce of molasses
or sugar" r

I call it wicked : there is no earthly necessitv for it.

2763. Earl of Dudkij.] Do you think it is necessary, as the inspector recom-
mended in one gaol, that to that which has just been read by the Noble Lord you
should add a little milk r

It is monstrous.

2764. Chairman.] Are you able to give the Committee any information upon
the subject of the reformation of criminals who pass through your gaol r

We have this fair ground of couiparison. I think I mentioned before that if
crime is reduced in a county, the efiiect of it will be shown by fewer prosecutions for
crime at assizes and at sessions. I was looking last night over a return which we
have made for the last four years, and I find that the prosecutions at assizes and
sessions are less b} half than they were six years ago.

276,5. May not that be influenced a great deal by the sunnnary jurisdiction ?
I have no doubt that that has had a very important effect, but still not the
whole.

2766. Have you any return of the number of prosecutions at assizes and
sessions in the county of Berkshire?

I think that upon that point probably the best criterion would be tlie decennial

return, which 1 have jirepared for the quarter sessions every Micliaelmas, of the

crime of the whole county for the last 10 years. That shows, with reference to

- Li37. 8.) 112 Berkshire

252 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

JF. Merry, Esq. Berkshire, that although the last two years shows an increase in our number of
?6th Apriri863 P^^oners hi Reading gaol, yet, dividing that 10 years into two quinquennial

' ' ))eriods, in the last five years there has been a reduction of crime of nearly

16 j)er cent.

2767. Have you that statement here?
Yes.

2768. Will you have the goodness to put it in r
Yes — [The witness delivers in the same).

2769. Are you not aware that tiiat has been the case all over the country?
I apprehend it is just the reverse.

2770. Do you include in that return of yours the convictions under the Summary
Jurisdiction Act ?

1 do; not only at Reading gaol but for the whole of the county, includino-
Abingdon gaol.

2771. That is to say, not only the convictions at assizes and sessions, but also
the convictions under the Summary Jurisdiction Act ?

Yes; the whole county, whether at Reading gaol or at Abingdon gaol.

2772. Viscount Eversley.'\ Is that the whole number of the convicted pri-
soners ?

The number of prisoners in gaol, convicted or not.

2773. Chairiiian.'] Can you state the number of re-commitments ?
I have a return of the re-commitments.

2774. Arc those rc-commitments confined to Reading gaol, or do they also
include those of Abingdon gaol, or any oilier gaol witiiin the county?

"ihe re-coramitmeuts include only Reading gaol.

2775. Have you no account of the re-commitments in Abingdon gaol.
JS'o.

2776. Is that information contained in the table that you have just put in ?
No.

2777. Will you have the goodness to state the number of re-commitments in
Reading gaol ?

I have them for 10 years. In 1853 there were 205 re-commitments; in 1854,
223; in 1855, 19G; in 1856, 166; in 1857, 220; in 1858, 181 ; in 1859, 153;
in 1860, 148; in 1861, 155; and in 1862, 173.

2778. According' to that table the number of re-commitments are increasing,
are they not?

Tliej- have increased in the last two years ; the lowest number was 148,
in 1860.

2779. They have now risen to 173 ?
Yes; up to last Michaelmas.

2780. Will you state what was tlie highest number of re-comraitments i^

Two hundred and twenty-three in 1854; the low3<t number was 148, in 1860;
a copy of this return was forwarded to Lord Carnarvon by the governor of the
gaol, at his Lordship's request.

2781. Earl of Romncij.] The return to which you alluded before takes in
Abingdon gaol as well as Reading gaol, does it not?

]My return us visiting justice to the quarter sessions includes tiie whole crime
of the county, and therefore hicludes Abingdon gaol.

2782. Is Abingdon gaol conducted upon the same system as Reading gaol ?
Ko ; there are very few prisoners there; there are not above half-a-dozen

county prisoners in Abingdon gaol.

2783. Lord Sfcu-ard.'] Under those circumstances, might it not be expedient to
transfer the Abingdon prisoners to Reading ?

That is what we, at our end of the county, have been extremely anxious
to do.

2784. Earl

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE, 253

2784. Earl of Dudley. '\ That has been the one question between you for some IV. Merry, Esq,
years, has it not ?

' Yes. ^'^'■'' ^^^3.

2785. Lord Steioard.^ Irrespective of the advantages to the county, would it
not be jiroductive of advantage to the prisoners and to the discipline of the gaol ?

Yes, undoubtedly, and we sliould save 600 /. a year by it.

2786. But with regard, more particularly, to prison discipline and prison
management, might it not be rather difficult to maintain a proper system of disci-
pline in a gaol in which so few prisoners were confined?

Yes; it is a great pity that the prisoners are not all sent to Reading.

2787. Chairman.'] You have quoted a paper which was sent by the governor of
the gaol to Lord Carnarvon, and which I Jiold in my hand. I find from that
return the total number of i)risoners admitted to the county gaol and the house
of correction at Reading in 1862 to have been 760 ; is that correct ?

That includes, I think, something which should not be there; I think it
includes prisoners sent to prison for re-examination. Such a man is not a convict ;
he is not in prison for trial even ; he is not even committed, but he is there for
safe custody.

2788. It is not usual, is it, to commit a person to gaol on remand ?
It is constantly done at our petty sessions.

2789. You have stated, have you not, that the number of vagrants has dimi-
nished very much in Reading gaol ?

They have increased in the last year.

2790. It is stated in the same return that the highest number was, in 1853,
113, and in 1862, 101 ?

Yes; in 1859 there were 87; in 1860,80; in 1861, OG, and in 1862, 101;
that is a progressive increase.

2791. It would appear that no diminution has taken place later than 1857?
Probably that is the case, but in the decennial return I have not made a classi-
fication of the prisoners. ,

2792. If this return be correct, there is not a very material reduction in the
number ?

The return, which I hold in my hand, I should prefer as being the more correct ;
it is the decennial return of the proportionate exj)ense, showing that by the
reduction of crime our county rates are very much diminished.

2793. Lord Wodehouse.] There has been a return sent to Lord Carnarvon, of
the employment of the prisoners ; is that return correct r

That return I believe is from the governor. l"he governor was with me last
night, and he told me that he had sent that return to Lord Carnarvon at his Lord-
ship's request ; and whatever he has said I should place perfect reliance in. He
is a very valuable old servant ; he has been connected with the gaol 40 years.

2794. "Will you have the goodness to look at that return — (handing the same to
the witness) — and if you think it is correct, will you put it in?

I consider that it is a correct return — {delivering in the same). There is one
point that we object to, namely, that the prisoners have 10 hours in bed. We
think eight hours sufficient, and we are going to mend our ways, as I hope it may
be considered, in that respect.

279.5- At what hour are the prisoners locked up at night r
At eight and nine o'clock ; but at any rate they have 10 hours bed; they are
ordered to unstrap their beds and go to bed, and I think that objectionable.

2796. At what time are they shut up in their cells?

They are always shut up except they are on duty, and doing some particular
•work.

2707. Have they light all the time?
Yes.

(37. 8.) 113 2798 At.

254 MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN' BEFORE THE

IV. Mernj, Es.q. 2798. At what time are the lights put out ?

That varies with the time of the year ; the lights are put out at eight o'clock

iBtli April 1^:63. Qj. j-,jjjg o'clock, according as the time of the year may be.

2709. And they get up at what hour in the morning?
At six o'clock.

2800. If they are locked up at eight or nine o'clock at night, do they remain
in darkness, without occupation, during: that time r

Yes, necessarily so, and that is what I object to. I think that our prisoners
should not be comjielled to go to bed for any period allowing them more than
eight Jiours bed. "\A^e cannot ju-event a man going to sleep in his cell upon his
three-legged stool ; but he uouhl not be quite as comfortable as in bed.

2801. Lord SteiL'ard.'\ You would not allow him to unsling his hammock, and
go to bed before the appointed hour ?

No.

2802. Chairman.'] When is the lasf, visit made by the governor or the turnkey ?
There is a warder on duty the whole 24 hours, taking it by turns like a watch"

on boarti ship.

2S03. Do they visit the cells at a particular hour in the night r
The warder on duty orders the gas to be put out at the appointed time, when-
ever it is, say eight o'clock.

2804. Does he go into the cell of the prisoner, or d(jes he simply put out the
gas ?

He orders the gas to be put out, and if the prisoner does not understand him
of course he would open the door and put it out for him.

2S05. Does each prisoner put out his own light?

Yes ; it is in his cell, and he has the power of putting it out, and he could not
light it again ; but if he did not know how to do it, the warder would go into the
cell and do it for him.

2806. How is the escape of gas prevented?

There is only the ordinary stop key that tiiere is in all gas pipes.

2807. Lord WotkJioiise.] Wh;it sort of bedding do the prisoners have ?
They have a hammock, wliich 1 think objectionable.

2808. Chairman.'] When a prisoner is first confined is he allowed a hammock,
or does he sleep U[)on boards?

We have no boards, except when a man has fit«, and he is obliged to sleep upon
the floor ; all the ])risoners sleep in hammocks slung from side to side of the cell,
which I think objectionable, but we have no other kind of bed.

280C). Lord Wodchouse.] On what ground do you think it objectionable ?

I think it is too comfortable ; I woi.ld give a man a hard board like a soldier
has in the guard-room ; 1 think cleanliness is essential, but anything in the shape
of luxury I think is a mistake.

2810. Chairman.] In the solitary cells for punishment have they any bedding?
We have not used them for eight or nine years, but there is a bed in them

which, I think, is a wooden betl ; it is a Hat bed on the floor.

2811. You liave expressed a decided opinion with respect to the advantage of
separation in chapel ?

Yes, undoubtedly; T have not the least liesitation in saying so after 16 years
of clos;' observation. I was six years acquainted as a visiting justice with the
associated principle in our old gaol. We opened our new gaol in 1844, and since
that time my attention has been weekly ])aid to everyihing going on there; it
has all come under my own personal observation, and I feel the strength of truth
in what I say.

2812. Chairman.] I see that masks were worn in your gaol; is that system
continued ?

Sir Richard Vivian, when he was Member for llelston, attacked us in a
pamphlet, accusing us of tyranny under the plea of benevolence. I felt that that
imputation was more than I was bound to sulmiit to as a visiting justice, and I

answered

SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 255

answered him in a pamplilet. Those masks were just caps, with the ]ieak coming jy, Mem/, Esq.

down just below the nose, so as to make it impossible that one should recognise — —

a man ; but the mask was simply a loAver peak than ordinary caps had. ihat iCtli April 1863.
kind of mask we use now, and we think it a mercy to the prisoner.

2813. Have you found it necessary or expedient on any occasion to recom-
mend a remission of sentence to the Secretarj'^ of State ? — Yes.

2814. Will you state on what occasion you have done so?

We have occasionally had men of feeble constitutions come in, suffering under
epilepsy, or consumption, or incipient insanity. It was supposed that the separate
cell system would induce insanity; but it is a great fact, which' is quite worth sub-
mitting to your Lordships, that for the first tour years after the 0|)ening of Reading-
gaol, although there were 30 in each year who ought to have gone mad, that is
to say, insanity was more or less developed in themselves or in their families, yet
there was not a single case of insanity in the gaol.

2815. In cases of illness, or anything of that kind, have you applied for a remis-
sion of sentences ?

Yes ; whenever the life or the mind of the prisoner appears to be in danger
we feel it to be our duty to apply to the Secretary of State for a remission.

2816. Have you ever applied for a remisiion of sentence on the ground of
good conduct?

I am not sure that, some years ago, there was not such a case, but we re-
considered the matter, and never did so again.

^O'^

* Note. — This was our practice, but I have since found that in conse-
quence of "extra diet" being so frequently ordered by the surgeon, the
inspector advised that hard labour diet should be allowed, in order that
extras might be avoided.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

EDWARD SHEPHERD, Esquire, is called in, and examined, as follows : E. Shepherd, Esq.

281 7. Chairman.^ WHAT position do you occupy r
I am Governor of the West Riding Prison at Wakefield.

281 8. Have you been so for many years ?

Yes ; I have been governor 31 years, and I was six years previously deputy-
governor, so that my experience in that prison extends over 37 years.

2819. How many prisoners have you generally at Wakefield?

The prison at Wakefield is divided into two parts ; it contains the West Riding
prisoners, and it lets off to the Government two wings containing 400 convicts.
In the West Riding part of the prison there are now about 1,000 prisoners; the
average for the last year was between 960 and J ,000.

2820. You pursue the same system very much as is pursued at Pentonville,
do you not ?

With regard to the convicts, we do exactly the same; and with regard to the
majority of the West Riding prisoners we do the same also ; but the prison is not
large enough to hold all the prisoners in separate cells, so that the system called
the " silent system " is in operation for a certain class of prisoners.

2821. Are they classed at all in the same manner as they are in the diet
table ?

No ; the separation is not very marked ; for instance, men advanced in years
would not be sent into sei)arate confinement ; men whom the prison discipline
would not be likely to affect either for good or for evil, and ])risoners for short
periods are not all sent into separate confinement, uidess they are young, from 19
to 25 or 26 years of age, as that is the most dangerous age of their life ; therefore
nearly all of them are placed in separate confinement.

2822. How many separate cells have you in your in-ison ?

Five hundred separate cells at this moment ; the numbers are great now.

(37.8.) I 14 28^3. Have

25G MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

JE. Shepherd, Esq. 2823. Have you any hard labour?

Not under the definition of the treadwheel or crank labour, but we have in-

iGih April 1863. tlvistrial labour ; we pursue the industrial labour very attentively ; it is made a

thorougli business of, and it is also considered a great part of the prison discipline,

that the men should be subjected to such hard labour as can be obtained from
trades. It is exceedingly difficult to say what is hard labour and what is not, for
you may stand over a man with a rod in your hand and you will not get him to do
above a certain quantity of work by ininishment.

2824. Earl of Z)«c?/ey.] But it is a different thing, is it nut, with the tread-
wheel ■

It is. We had the treadwheel formerly, but it is so uncertain a punishment
that it was given up. Some men sutVered materially, and lost as much as five
pounds weight in a week ; it affects certain classes of persons much more than
others ; sedentary persons would suffer severely.

2825. Chairman.'] How long is it since you have given up the treadwheel ?
I think it was given up in 1840.

2S26. Lord Weusleydale.'] On whose order was it given up ?

It fell into disuse ; it was never specially ordered to be given up, but it fell into
disuse ; the magistrates generally disapproved of it.

2827. Earl of M(i!//iesbitrj/.] Did not you find that the men, when they got used
to it, could work with much greater ease than at first?

Yes ; and that in another respect makes it an uncertain punishment, because
when they got used to it, it was not very nmch of a punishment ; their mode of
treading, and other things, made it easy to some in comparison with what it would
be to other persons.

28.^8. But still it was not so easy as if they had none at all ?

I am not sure whether very good discipline, carried out with severe labour, is
not abetter plan than anything that you could have on the treadwheel, and it is
hard labour for the general run of prisoners.

2829. Earl of Dudley.] Do you take it upon yourself to dispense with a sen-
tence of hard labour ^vhich has been passed by a court of law ?

No, I never knew that hard labour meant the treadwheel ; there is no
such law that I know of; hard labour means hard work. There is a record
■which goes to the judges of the land from Wakefield every assizes, stating what is
the labour which the prisoners pursue in that place, and it has never come back
to us with the lemark, " \'ou have not carried out ihe sentence that was ordered
by us."

2830. Earl of Mabneshury.'] But, in the common acceptation of the term, -would
you call the treadwheel hard labour, or hard work ?

Yes, but I would call other employments hard work, also.

2831. How can you get hard labour out of a prisoner who is engaged in mat-
making, or in any other industrial occupation ?

I can do it very well.

2832. Chair7)ian.'\ What trades do you emjdoy the prisoners in, in Wakefield
gaol.

Shoemaking, tailoring, mat making, and weaving, It is quite easy to compel
a prisoner to do a certain quantity of work, which quantity of work amounts to
' hard labour.

2833. Earl o^ Dudley.'] Can you tell the Committee the method by which you
compel a man to do what you consider a hard labour day's labour.

Bv cx|)erience we know what an average quantity of work is, and Avhat all men
ought to do ; every man that does less than that quantity is punished.

2S34 But the great ])roportion of those who come to you, have to be instructed
in their industrial occupation, then, for the first time, have they not?

Yes.

2835. Can you, therefore, establish any average of what a man just beginning
a new trade, can possibly do in a day?

For a certain length of time, say one month, a man is considered a learner,
according to circumstances, according to the sort of trade he is going to pursue.
He has to make a certain number of mats every week ; for example, supposing he
Lad six to make, the first week he would make two, and the second week three ;

and

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 257

and supposing ho continued at three for a week or two longer, and did not advance E. Shepherd, Esq.

up to six, he would be brought before me, the governor, and I should say, " You '

have been long enough here to make more, and if you do not make more week by ^^'^^ ^f'^ '^^•'^

week you will be punished," and he would be punished till he made the required '
number.

2836. The required number would be six ?
Say six of one kind, for instance.

2837. Are those six mats anything like what a man would do if he were work-
ing for himself out of gaol ?

JNo. There is an establishment at Wakefield for giving employment to discharged
prisoners, which has been in operation since 1850, where the men when they o-q
out of prison have the same employment that they have had inside, and they have
to earn their own living ; they have to work by the piece, and they make nearly
three times as many.

2838. Still do you hold to your definition of its being a hurd day's labour to
make this maximum quantity of six mats a week ?

I should perhaps explain that the exercise in prisons, the parade, the chapel,
the school, and other things of that sort, take off many hours of labour in the day.
When they are out of prison they are employed from six o'clock until nine at
night, but when they are in prison then 1 very much doubt whether they really
work above eight hours, or even quite as much as eight hours, in any prison. I
believe that the work is as long in Wakefield as anywhere.

2839. Have you a statement of the occupations of the prisoners in the gaol
from six in the morning to nine at night ?

1 have not it with me, but I could oive it in such detail as would be intelligible.

2840. Lord IVensleyale.^ What is your measure of hard labour ; how much a
day .^

When I stated that six mats was the average, I should have said that whenever
a man can make more, we compel him to make more ; but six is the mmimum. If
a prisoner can by dexterity or otherwise make more than that, and if he is not
industriously employed the whole of the day, he would then subject himself to be
punished, because although he made the average quantity, he would not make
what he c ould really and truly make by hard labour.

284K Lord Lyvedtn.'] What is the punishment that you would give him?
Bread and water for three days.

2842. For a failure in one dav's fulfilment of employment ?

Yes.

2843. Chairman.'] Could you give the Committee the detail of the employment
of the prisoners during the day ?

They rise at half-past five, and work from six to half-past seven.

2844. Are they called up by a bell?

They are called up by a bell ; but the oflScers go to every man's door a little
before six to have them up, so that they really are at M'ork at six. They have
their beds made and their cells all cleared and ready foi- work at six o'clock.
Certain of the officers who sleep in the prison go round every morningj beginning
at half-past five, and they have the men up, so that the general run of the
ofiicers when they come in at six find all the men ready for work at that moment.
They breakfast at half-past seven ; from half-past seven to nine, breakiiast and
attendance at chapel, chapel being immediately after breakfast ; from nine to one
work ; from one to two dinner ; from two to seven work ; then supper.
From that time to nine the 7nen may cither read or work as they think proper in
winter and summer, alone in their cells. They go to bed at nine, at which
hour the lights are put out.

2845. Lord Steward.] Is there any restriction as to communication ?
They are never allowed to converse at any time.

2846. Earl of Dudley.] Are they under the surveillance of the officers at all
times ?

Yes.

(37. 8.) K K 2847. Lord

258 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

E. Shepherd, Esq. 2847. Lord JFtnsiej/dak.] Are they under the silent system?
Yes ; they are not allowed to tulk.

16th April 1863. o -n T /■ T^ 7/ T T^

2848. barl of Dudley.] From half-past six or seven to nine do they occupy

themselves in work or reading r

Yes.

2849. Is that the time they have instruction given to them?

No ; the prisoner is his own instrnctor in that time ; he is instructed in the
middle of the day. I will now give your Lordships the deductions from those
times. There is an hour and a half of exercise ; that is to say, one hour one day
and two hours the next, makinij an average of an hour and a hallF.

2S50. When does that come?

Whenever the exercise is twice a day, and two hours in all, it comes one hour
in the morning and one in the afternoon ; it is never two hours together.

2851. That is taken out of those two times of work between nine and one, and
between two and half-past six ?

Yes; and the time of school is also taken out of the same hours of working;
but the length of that time depends entirely upon the man's knowledge ; I should
say that it would average fully half an hour a day for all ; it is an hour for some
of those who are the most ignorant persons, but I have no doubt that it averages
fully half an hour a day.

2852. Does that come out of the first working time or the second working
time ?

Out of both the working times ; the school is going on all day for some classes.

2853. The only deduction for school is half-an-hour, on the average?

Yes; just so; but perhaps, on consideration, it is not quite as much as half-an-
hours mstruction, on the average ; then there is the inspection of the surgeon, and
the inspection of the chaplain, and the inspection of the governor, and the parade
of the men. I am cpiite sure that you might with safety take off" a quarter of an
hour a day more for that, but not more, from the actual hours of labour.

28,54. The maximum of vour work is, therefore, six and a-half hours a da}" ?

I think it is seven and a-half hours on the day on which the two hours arc
taken for exercise, and eight hours the other day ; but the Act of Parliament ])re-
scribes ten hours.

2855. Chairman.~\ Diil you adopt the eight hours from any idea of the suffi-
ciency of that labour?

No ; Ave adopted the eight hours because we could get no more with these
unfortunate interruptions. I have at all times advised that the school should be
after half-past seven. I think that it is a very improper thing that a prisoner's
working time should be occu|»ied by school.

2S.56. Have you ever made any representation of that kind ?
Yes, to the magistrates.

2857. Earl of 2)«c?/ev.] Are not you absolute in that matter?

No; the difficulties rest on the score of expense, in some respects. The school-
masters are employed at mid-day ; if they were employed in the evenings only
they v\ou]d have so great a number to teach that we should require perhaps four
or five times as many schoolmasters, because they would have them but one hour
to teach, whereas now they have eight or nine to teach in the whole day.

28.') 8. In one word, your answer is that two or three schoolmasters, as is the
case now, would not be sufficient to give every man a modicum of instruction if
the school were to be after seven o'clock ?

No ; it would be alumdant if we increased the schoolmasters.

2859. Lord irms/fj/f/fl/e.] llow many schoolmasters have you ?

Two; no instruction is given to the short-time prisoners; it is only those for
three months, and upwards, to whom instruction is imparted in the school.

2860. Are tlic prisftnirs for shorter .sentences than three months employed in a
diHerent way from the others?

Yes.

2861. In

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 259

286 1 . In what manner are the}' eniijloyed ? E. Shepherd, Esq

Prisoners committed for seven clays and ten days are not employed at all ; they — ;-

are kept strictly separate, on bread and water. ^^'^ ^P"' '^^"*

•2862. Earl of Dudley.] You have neither the treadwheel nor the cranks r
No.

28f)3. Do you gi-ind your own corn?

IV'o; Ave buy the flour.

2864. How is the water supplied to the gaol ?
From the town.

2861. There is no labour used either fdr grinding flour, or for procuring water?

No.

2866. Lord Wcnsleijdale.'] Have you any breaking stones ?
No.

2867. Earl of Dudley.] You have no compulsory hard labour of any kind ?
No ; no other than what I have stated.

2868. By " compulsory labour " 1 mean where the men must follow the wheel
as it revolves?

Precisely so. Supposing a man says, as is sometimes the case, " I will not
work at the crank, and I will not work at the treadwheel," what are you to do
more than I do r You can but send him into solitary confinement, on bread and
water.

2869. Chairman.'] Have you not the power of inflicting corporal punishment
on the authority of the visiting justices ?

Yes ; but I think it is a punishment which the visiting magistrates would not
inflict for idleness.

2870. Earl of Budley.] Not for refusing to carry out the sentence of the
Court ?

No, they would not ; they never have done so ; they are opposed to it, and I
think they would not do it.

2871. Chairman.] Are the Committee to understand that you object to cor-
poral punishment ?

Yes, I do. I object to corporal punishment, except for one off'ence connected
with prisons, and that is, serious assaults upon officers; that is the only case in
which I should recommend corporal punishment.

2872. Earl of Dudley.] Therefore, if things come to an extreme pass, your
authority as well as that of the visiting justices is set at defiance ?

I have known such cases.

2873. If they will not work, you do not make them work?

If a man will not work, and if a man has reduced himself so low by punishment,
that lie can bear punislmient no longer, I have known cases in which we have
quietly pocketed our authority. They are very rare cases indeed ; but I merely
'mention that I have known such instances.

2874. In one word, if he has the power of endurance and the will also, he is
stronger than you are ?

Yes, there have been such cases.

2875. You therefore use the discretion that you have, acting under the orders
of the visiting justices, and do not carry out the sentence passed by th e law,
because the law says, that the prisoner is sentenced to so many months of deten-
tion in the house of correction with hard labour, but that labour, beyon d indus-
trial occupation, you do not force him to perform ?

Industrial occupation is, in my oiiiuion, and in the magistrates' opinion, hard
labour.

2876. Do you feel yourself justified in sayiog that you consider hard labour to
be industrial occupation ?

I do, most assuredly. I am quite sure that as it is carried out in the prison at
Wakefield, it is hard labour.

(37. 8.) K K 2 287-. Lord

260 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

£,. Shepherd, Esq. 2877. Lord Wensleydale.\ What is gentle labour as contrasted with hard

— — labour ?

10th April 1863. What would be understood by picking oakum.

2S78. Chairman.l You have the same dietary in Wakefield which existed in
May 1850, have you not ?

We had up to a few months ago.

2879. Have you the dietary now in use which was passed in June 1862 ?
Yes ; it was passed in June, but it came into operation in September.

2880. Was the dietary of May 1850 determined by the visiting justices, or
was it fixed under any special order of the Secretary of State ?

The old dietary was compiled by direction of the visiting justices in the first
instance, and afterwards sanctioned by the Secretary of State.

2881. You have had an alteration since May 1850?
Yes.

2882. Was it fixed by the visiting justices ?

Yes.

28S3. Was it sanctioned by the Secretary of Stater

It was sanctioned as an experiment for six months by the Secretary of State,
and no longer.

2884. Those six months have expired, have they not ?
Yes ; and we have apjilied to have the term renewed.

2885. What was the difference between the two diets, as to the amount of
solid food ?

It is very difficult to understand the diet in that form, but I thought it pos-
sible that 1 might be asked that question, and I have prepared it in this form.
Perhaps I should be understood if I gave it to the Committee in a short detail,
and it sliall be as short as possible. I have classed tlie food under three kinds,
that is to say, cereal (.inch as bread, flour, oatmeal, and peas) ; vegetables (such as
potatoes), and cooked meat. Under the old diet, a prisoner committed for one
month had 173 ounces of cereal food in the week, 36 ounces of vegetables, and no
cooked meat ; making a total of 209 ounces in the week. The new diet is, cereal
food, 1C9 ounces, vegetables, 56 ounces, cooked meat, six ounces.

2886. Then, in point of fact, you have increased the diet by the addition of
cooked meat ?

Yes ; the difference in the total amount would be as between 209 ounces and
231 ounces. The whole of this new diet is part of a plan for trying an alteration
of the discipline generally. I brought before the visiting justices certain facts
connected with the prison at Wakefield, as far as regarded the committals and the
recommittals, and certain facts connected with the prisons in England and Wales
under the same circumstances. In the prisons in England and \Vales for the 10
years ending 1858, there were 120,398 persons committed annually; in the
following two years there were 108,159, making a reduction in each of
the two years of 12,100. I brought tliis before the magistrates, and I stated
also that the tables, upon careful consideration showed that there was a con-
siderable defect either in criminal administration, or in prison management,
because the same tables show that 83,200 persons were committed for the
first time to prison m the earlier 10 years, and in the later two years when
there was a diminution of 12,000, there were 71,200 persons committed
for the first time ; that is to say, who had never been before in prison ; so
that the whole decrease in the two years was upon persons who had never been
in prison at all. It appeared, therefore, that other causes than prison management
influenced tiiat fireat reduction. The recommittals would enable us to see about
how far prison management or other causes had kept uj) the number of criminals.
There were recommiiials for the first offence in those ])revious 10 years, 16,370,
as compared with 15,400 committed twice, 7,100 in the earlier 10 years as com-
pared with 0,850 ; and committed three times, 3,836, as compared with 3,840 in
the later two years. We then come to those who were imprisoned a greater
number of times, and we find that in each of the earlier 10 years, the number
was 9,809, .and in each of the later two years, 10,746 ; so that it was quite clear
that it was the recommittals of persons that were keeping uji the number of

criminals

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 261

criminals in this country. It was not what I may term the original offenders, e. Shepherd, Esq.

because they were reduced to an enormous amount, to within 258 of the whole

decrease. 1 brought this before the magistrates, and 1 stated that possibly one i6th April 1863.
of the causes was a defective discipline (certainly it is a minor cause), of the
continued increase. There is another cause which I tliink is a much more im-
portant one ; but one cause was the defective discipline, and as this was general not
only in Wakefield but throughout England and Wales, there must be some general
cause. It was quite evident that prisoners were treated in some way that did not
either deter or reform them ; and the magistrates, therefore, directed me to draw
up some plan by which, if it were possible, either a deterring influence or a reform-
ing influence might be brought to bear upon the prisoners, according to the length
of their sentences. I did so, and a plan was introduced into the prison of various
privations in the earlier stages, such as strict separate confinement in a cell, no
visiting or correspondence of any kind, no books, no exercise, and a low diet. A
man when he came into prison was kept for the first 14 days on a strict discipline
•on purpose to try what effect it would have in the way of depression. At the end
of a month, if his conduct was perfectly satisfactory, he might have certain indul-
gences granted him, and be allowed the diet that is before your Lordshi])s, namely,
the third class of diet now in use. Every prisoner, when he came into prison,
Avas placed on the lowest class of diet ; and, up to lately, he had been subjected to
the discipline that I mentioned before to the Committee, for 14 days. At the end
of a month, if his conduct was very good (and his conduct was recorded by marks),
he was allowed a better class of diet, namely, the third class, and certain indul-
gences; for instance, the writing a letter to his friends, or receiving one, books,
-and writing materials (by bool<s, I mean other books than the Bible and Prayer
Book, wliich is given each prisoner at the first), and exercise, according to his
conduct and industry. These improvements went on until he had advanced
from stage to stage, until he came to the advanced class ; and he could
arrive at that class by very good conduct indeed in nine months. The
efl'ect of this discipline was very surprising, as far as regarded the conduct of the
prisoners and their industry. The report that was laid before the Quarter Sessions
the other day has this extract : " In August last the Secretary of State sanctioned,
as an experiment for six months, a new scale of diet, recommended by the visiting
justices. This scale came into operation in Sej)tember, and in connection with it
a new system based on that carried out in the Irish convict prisons. These ex-
])eriments appear to work well, although there has been a much larger number of
prisoners in custody, yet owing to the improveil method of discipline there has
been a great diminution in the number of punishments for misconduct. In 18G1
there were 1,153 prisoners punished ; in 1862, 479, and 170 reduced in class.
Tlie average number iu custody was considerably greater in the vear 1862 than in
the year 1861."

2887. I understand from that that the effect of your new discipline has been
that you have fewer punishments in gaol ?

That is one effect, and the other effect has been with regard to the industry of
the prisoners. It is difficult to measure the industry on the whole scale through-
out the prison, but I will give the Committee the effect in one room. There is a
room in which 30 prisoners work, and the profit to the trade, from the work of
those men, is at the rate of 2 d. on the square yard of floor matting, after all the
expenses are paid. The men had no share of their profit, under any cir-
cumstances, before December last. The average quantity of work that they
did for the year was of the value of 40 Z. 13 s. per month. In the month
of December, by the directions of the magistrates, we tried this experiment. We
said to the prisoners, " If you are industrious you shall have extra food for your
industry, according as you work beyond a certain amount." The first month, that
is to say, in December, they earned 44/. 14s., and tlie value of the food which
was given amongst the whole 30 in the shape of extra diet was 7 s. \d. In the
next month, the month of January, they earned 5W. 18.y., and they had 12s. ^d.
extra diet given to them. In the next month, February, they earned 01/. lis.,
and they had 15s. 4d. extra diet given to them. And in the next month, Marcli,
which is the last I have taken an account of, they earned 72/. 8s., and 19s. 2d.
was the value of the extra food that was given to them. The profit on their work
had risen ia four months from 40/. 13s. to 72/. 8s. a month.

(37. 8.) K K 3 2888. You

262 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

E. Shepherd, Esq. 2 88 8. You look upon this, do you not, as an economical question in point of

monev

i6th April 1863. I ^^■^^[ not intend to place it in such a light ; it is a low estimate, to look at it
merely in a money point of view. I wish to place it before the Committee as a
something that could be done by holding out inducements to ]n-isoners. Instead
of the usual course in all cases of punishment which, as I told your Lordships a
sliort time ago, was very unsatisfactory with regard to getting a quantity of work
done, I hold out a hope to the man. I say, " If you will do more work, you
will receive more for it." It might be better, perhaps, to pay the men something
on discharge ; but it does not come direct to them day by day, as this matter of
food does. They feel every day that they have gained something, and they exert
themselves inconsequence; and when one considers that nearly double the amount
of work is done compared with what used to be the case, it is astonishing
what effect a little inducement of that kind has upon them.

2889. Then you imagine that you make the prisoners more industrious by that
means ?

Yes ; I conceive that if you induce industrious habits under any guise you like,
you are doing good. The men are sent to prison because many of them are dirty,
slovenly, idle men, and they are sent to prison if possible to eradicate those habits,
and if you can eradicate them by inducements of any sort (by punishments I am
quite sure you cannot in many instances), I feel that one is doing them good.

2890. May you not render the gaol rather too comfortable for them, so as to
make them wish to come into it ?

That is always to be dreaded, but what I began with at first was a statement of
making it as hard in strict confinement as I possibly could, bearing in mind that a
man, even if he be advanced in class, may be reduced back again by misconduct.

2891. You abandon altogether the punishment of the individual and the object
of deterring others from commiiting crime t

I think 1 have not said so, because T have said just the contrary ; I said that I
made the place as severe as I could for a short time ; in fact, I recommended one
tiling more which I should like to have generally adopted throughout the country ;
I recommended that every man who is sentenced to a short period, when he comes
into prison, should sleep on a guard betlstead ; of course I exclude old men and
women. You cannot make the place too severe for a man at first. When I state
that many prefer the prison to the workhouse, it is what every one knows ; but it
really is a startling thing that it should be so. I am given to understand that chey
even prefer the prison to the reformatory, which 1 am also very sorry to hear.

2892. Earl of Dudley.] Have you ever visited a reformatory :
Yes.

289;^. C/iairniaii.] With regard to the increase of diet, do you think that that
tends to make them dislike a prison ?

I think I oidy began with one month ; if your Lordship would go forward
through this dietary with me you would see that we have a scale for two months
and three months and upwards, although we always begin at the low scale.
Formerly if a man was sentenced for 12 montiis we gave him the best diet, that is
to say, we gave him the diet that you find marked on the table as No. 1, the day
he came into the prison. Now we give him the lowest diet, and he must work
his way u])wards to the better diet.

2894. What is the use of long imprisonments ?

When imprisonments are for short periods a man can bear a little pinching and
a little loss of weight, but the more they work and the longer they are in prison
the better diet do they require. This diet is perhaps not the very best chosen
diet, but we are trying to inijirove it ; the j)rincip!e is good, and I have no doubt
that in a second attempt we shall have it l>ettcr ada])tcd. At present I think we
bcfin too low fnr men of long sentences. What with the pressure of the separate
confinement and the low diet, 1 think Ihey break down rather in the beginning,
and they do not recover when they get the better classes of diet. The difference
between the old diet and the new is, that on the old diet whatever length the
man's sentence was, he began with that diet the day he came into the prison.

Now

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 263

Now we make him begin with the low diet, and work liis way up by his good E. Sltepltcrd, Esq.

conduct; and it works in this way: a well conducted man gets a better class of

diet, Avhereas :i badly conducted man remains in the fourth class the whole of his ^^'^ ''^'"'' '^^3-
time, and does not get nut of it at all. "

2895. Earl of DudU'ij.~] Are there many of them that remain in the low class ?

I do not know of more than three. I inquired amongst the subordinates, and
we could not discover more than three who were in for long periods who had not
been advanced. Many who are in for two months do not get advanced at all,
although they would be advanced if their conduct was good.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next,

One o'clock.

(37. 8.) K K 4

( 265 )

Die Martis, 2P Aprilis 1863.

LORDS PRESENT:

Duke of Richmond. I Eail Cathcart.

Duke of Marlborough.
Marquess of Salisbury.
LoHD Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of RoMNEY.

Eail of DuciE.
Earl of Dudley.
Loid Wensleydale.
Lord Lyveden.

THE EARL OF CARNARVON, in the Chair.

Evidence oil

Prison Discipline.

ED^YARD SHEPHERD, Esquire, is again called in, and examined E. Shepherd, Esq.

as follows : . 7 ^^

2ist April 1863.

2896. Chairman.'] IS there anything that you wish to add to your evidence
on the last occasion of the meeting of the Committee ?

I was directed to give the Committee some further information upon certain
points upon which I was examined at the last meeting. First, with regard to
the routine of the prisons, L stated that the hours of labour were eight-and-a-
half hours, but I did not give exactly the particulars ; we only arrived at eight
hours. I have now before me the routine. The bell rings for the prisoners to
rise at half-past five ; the cells are cleaned befoi-e six in the morning, and they
are washed on two days in the week after work hours. The prisoners com-
mence work at six ; they breakfast at 7-30 ; chapel at eight ; commence work
again at nine ; work until one ; dinner at one ; commence work at two ; and
continue work till supper, at seven. The gas is lighted until nine, when the
prisoners go to bed. The honrs of work in the gross, therefore, are ten and a
half, and the deductions for exercise are an hour and a half; school and other
interruptions of work an average of half an hour, making the total hours of
work eight hours and a half. I have brought an extract from the prison rules
with regard to the school ; the rule is this: "Adult prisoners, sentenced to
hard labour, shall have one hour's instruction separately, or in a class
during the hours of labour." " Each prisoner twice a week, according as
the chaplain finds it practicable, and all the other prisoners, shall have
such an amount of time allowed for instruction as the chaplain may think
proper."

2897. Marquess of Sa/isbiiri/.] Did not you state that a larger number of
schoolmasters would be necessary if the instruction were given after the hours
of work ?

Yes. I have considered rhat point also. I think it is so important that the
school should be after the work hours iu the evening, which is what is natural
out of doors to every one, that I have consulted the schoolmasters and the
officials as to the expense. I spoke rather off-hand in my former exami-
nation with regard to the expense. I thought that it woidd add materially to
the expense; but now I find, on close examination, that it will not add any-
thing to the expense. More schoolmasters, it is true, would be required ;
I think, in place of two, perhaps six would be required. The time occupied
being only one hour and a half, or two hours, in an evening, it is possible to
obtain instructors, who would not be engaged the whole of the day, for a small

(37. 9.) L L remuneration

2 1st April i8t53.

266 MINXTTES OF EVIDEXCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

E. ShepherJ, Esq. remuneration per annum ; and 1 have come to the conclusion that it would not
add to the expense of the prison in the least.

2S98. Chairman.] Wovdd there not he a great advantage in having one fixed
hour of the day during which the instruction should be given, rather than
making it variable, and, consequently, dependent upon the discretion of the
chaplain or schoolmaster, as the case might be ?

1 believe the best plan would be that the instruction should be given at a
fixed hour to persons sentenced for a certain length of time, and that the instruc-
tion should be uniform.

2899. Do you, from vour experience, foresee any practical difficulty in making
the hours in the evening, say from seven till nine, or from eight till nine, as the
case might be, the time when instruction should be given under those circum-
stances ?

No, I do not ; 1 see no difficulty whatever which is not easily surmountable
by other arrangements with respect to the schoolmasters, the officers, and the
chaplain perhaps.

29C0. And, on the other hand, b}' adopting that fixed time at which the
instruction should be given, of course a great gain would result to the discipline
and to the regularity of the hours in the prison ? i

Yes, veiy great ; and to the earnings also, for those are points, of course, which
one has to consider in any recommendation ; I believe that the continual break-
ing off of the employment, and prisoners frittering away their time, is bad, and
that it is better for them to work continuously during the hours between
meals.

2001. One of the witnesses, when examined on this point, stated that there
would be considerable difficulty in giving instruction in the evening, inasmuch
as the prisoners woidd be liable to go to sleep over their woik ; do you imagine,
from your practical experience of this question, that that difficulty would be a
serious one?

I think not ; I think that people out of doors "o to evening schools who work
\ery hard indeed all day, and I see no difficulty whatever; in fact, I think it
would be a very great improvement.

2902. What is the number of prisoners that you in practice admit to a class
for instruction ?

I think the number would he in a great measure dependent upon the extent
of their previous knowledge ; for instance, only a few uneducated prisoners
could be taught together l^y one schoolmaster, but many might be taught
together if they were in some degree advanced in education. I think that the
highest number that it would be desirable to assign to one schoolmaster would
be 30, and the lowest 20.

2903. Is the instruction given at Wakefield in the chapel, or in a school-
ro m ?

It is now given in a schoolroom ; it has been given in the chapel.

2904. Are there partitions in the chapel?
No ; there were.

2905. Nor in the schoolroom?
No ; none in the schoolroom.

2906. Are you averse to partitions ?
Very much indeed ; I have seen so many evils from them that I am very

much averse to them ; I should explain to the Committee, that only about one-
half of the instruction is given in the school, the other half .being given in the
cells.

2907. Does the chaplain preside over the instruction as well as the school-
master ?

It is his special department.

2908. "\Mun the men are assembled in classes, does the chaplain instruct
them ?

Yes, he does.

2909. And

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 267

2909. And he goes from cell to cell to give instruction to them there ? E. i^hephaiI,Esq.
]\'o;" he goes from cell to cell in his usual visitation as a chaplain, but not 21st April 1863

as an instructor, nor does he go, I believe, from cell to cell in any way connected '

with instruction.

2910. I presume that at Wakefield books are distributed to the pri-

soners

Yes ; a school-book is given by the chaplain (a book as to the education
that the prisoner will pursue), and*^ reading books are given out twice a week
by the schoolmaster. They are taken from cell to cell, and changed in
every cell ; for instance, the books which a prisoner in No. 1 has this week,
are given next week to the prisoner in No. 2, and so on throughout the
prison.

291 1. Is there any limitation with regard to the number of books which are
issued at one time to each j)risoner r

Practically there is ; as a rule, a prisoner has two books of an amusing cha-
racter; not religious books.

291 2. Is every prisoner considered entitled to two books as soon as he comes
into the gaol, or are they allowed to him after he has passed a certain period of
imprisonment, and as a privilege ?

They are allowed to him as a privilege, which he is not entitled to in the
earlier stages.

2913. At what period of the confinement does the distribution of books to a
prisoner commence ?

When he has obtained the third class, and is beginning the fourth class. I
wish to explain that the best class is No. 1, and No. 7 is the worst. The
paper which is before your Lordship is not quite satisfactory, and will not be
persevered in.

29 M. Are the Committee to understand that books are not distributed to
the prisoners until they reach the third class ; that is to say, after one month's
confinement ?

After one month's confinement, and good conduct and industry, they are
allowed books.

2915. And you have no further rule, which limits the disti'ibution of those
books ?

None.

2916. Is a record kept of the prisoners to whom the books are distributed?
Yes.

29 1 7. Does a prisoner frequently upply for a book ?

Not to me. I do not think that there are any causes of complaint ; I have
never heard of an3^ I believe the schoolmasters are indulgent ; and if the
books were small, of course there would be more than two given ; I am speaking
of two good-sized octavo books.

2918. With regard to the question. of the dietary, will you be good enough
to continue the explanation which you commenced ?

If you will allow me, I have one or two more corrections to make in my
former evidence. I wish to present to the Committee in detail what I stated
in abstract, and which was hardly correct, an account of the number and de-
scription of committals in England and Wales. The number of separate and
other cells in the Wakefield prison, and other cells at the task-work in prison.

(37. 9.) L L 2 The

2G8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

E. Shepherd, Esq. The number of committals in England and Wales are as follows : —

2 1st April 1863.

Table (A.)

Committals in England and JVulex (exclusive of Debtors), taken from Judicial

Statistics.

First
Offence.

RE-COMMITTALS.

Total
Re-
Committals.

Grand Total

Years.

Once.

Twice.

Tlirice.

Four times
and upwards.

Committed.

J849

90,982

18,157

7,792

3,945

9,932

39,826

130,808

1850

80,0fi4

16,463

7,319

4,003

9,639

37,424

117,488

18.51

86,081

16,827

7,27G

3,793

8,924

36,820

122,901

1852

81,041

15,427

6,596

3,620

8,953

34,596

115,637

1853

76,485

14,421

6,695

3,563

8,886

33,565

110,050

1854

82,344

15,342

6,735

3,589

9,684

35,350

117,694

1855

83,942

14,596

6,342

3,387

9,366

33,693

117,635

1856

84,689

15,824

6,696

3,718

10,366

30,604

121,293

1867

85,462

18,374

8,128

4,400

11,267

42,169

127,631

1858

81,257

18,268

7,909

4,345

11,058

41,680

122,837

Total -

832,347

163,099

71,488

38,363

98,077

371,627

1,203,974

Yearly 1
Average/

83,235

16,370

7,149

3,836

9,808

37,163

120,398

1859

73,313

10,340

7,201

3,991

10,890

38,428

111,741

1860

69,194

14,570

6,504

3,700

10,601

35,381

104,575

Total -

142,507

30,922

13,705

7,691

21,491

73,809

216,316

Yearly ~1
Average/

71,253

15,461

6,852

3,846

10,746

36,905

108,158

With regard to the cells, there are in the new prison at Wakefield 408 cells
for males, and 158 of the old large size; for females, there are in the new
prison 70 cells, and of the old size 83 ; making a total of 719 full-sized cells
certified for separate confinement. I have also a return of the munber of mats
made by men in the prison, and the number made by workmen in the Indus-
trial Home, who have been prisoners, and it is as follows :

Table (B.)

Number of Mats made by Men in Prison, and Number made by Workmen in the
Industrial Home who have been Prisoners.

•

Hours of Labour.

8i per Day.

11 per Day.

DESCRIPTION UF MATS.

Minimum.

Number the
best Workmen

can
make in Prison.

Number made

Workmen

Outside.

Common mats, in looms .....
Best, on boards

30
6

40
10

80
16

f Looms
Hours being alike, the numbers would be|

[Boards

62
13

The

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 269

The scale of diet which I beg to lay before your Lordships is founded in part E. Shepherd, Esq.

upon the one which you have before you, and where we have found defects I

have tried to alter them ; so that it is more adapted to the requirements of the ^'^'^ ■^P"' '^"^S-
prison than the scale that we have used ourselves. If your Lordships will
allow me, 1 will hand in this scale. The old scale has defects ; and altliough
the Secretary of State has sanctioned it up to the present time, I believe that he
will not sanction it again ; so that it is not desirable to bring forward what will
not be approved, but what possibly may be approved. In order to make it
more easily understood, I have not subdivided it into various descriptions of
food, but I have given the quantities in totals, so as to make it applicable. It
may be clianged in some respects, but the quantities are the same. There are
seven diets. I propose that all prisoners committed for terms of imprisonment
not exceeding 10 davs should have the cereal food which is given with regard
to tliat class, namely, bread and oatmeal porridge, 140 ounces per week ;
prisoners committed for terms exceeding 10 days, and not exceeding a month,
164 ounces of cereal food and 36 ounces of vegetable food, making 200 ounces.
Those two classes are fixed ; and the next begins the graduated scale. All
other prisoners during the first month of their imprisomcnt should have
182 ounces of cereal food, 60 ounces of vegetable food, and 8 ounces of animal
food, making 250 ounces. The fourth class, which is obtainable by good con-
duct end industry, after the completion of one month's imprisonment, should
have 188 ounces of cereal food, 68 ounces of vegetable, and 10 ounces of animal
food, making 266 ounces. The third class, obtainable by good conduct and
industry, after the comj)letion of four months' imprisonment, 200 ounces of
cereal food, 7G ounces of vegetable food, and 1 4 ounces of animal food, making
290 ounces. The second class obtainable by good conduct and industry, after
the completion of eight months' imprisonment, 200 ounces of cereal food,
104 ounces of vegetable food, and 16 ounces of animal food, being 320 ounces.
To the first class I would give the same description of food, with the addition of
seven pints of milk. I have described at the bottom of the scale that " cereal "
consists of bread, oatmeal, two ounces to each pint of gruel, flour used in pud-
dings or soup, and peas used in soup. The vegetable food consists chiefly
of potatoes and onions, and the animal food of meat, cooked, given cold
or in soup, calculated without bone, and after boiling. There is a material
addition at the bottom of this diet, that if a prisoner misconducts himself he
may be reproved or punished by solitary confinement on bread and water for
three days, or reduced in class, at the discretion of the governor.

29 1(). If reduced in class, would he be obliged to work his way up again
through the other classes, or would he be, on good conduct, re-transferred
from the class to which he was degraded to the class from which he was sent
down ?

The usual rule which I have acted upon in 99 cases out of 100 is to degrade
one class only upon an offence ; that is to say, to the next below it. I have
rarely ever degraded a prisoner beyond that.

2920. Lord Weuslei/daie.^ Is that a permanent degradation ?

No ; it is only until by his good conduct a prisoner is restored again ; he
may be restored in the same lengths of time in which he originally arrived at
that class.

2921. Chatrmau.'] In addition to the present scale of diet are extra diets
in use in the prison under the order of the surgeon .^

. Yes.

2922. Can you put in a return of the number of extra diets during every
year ?

I have not it with me to-day, but I will furnish it to the Committee ; I
remember looking it up for some other purpose, and it is about the same extra
diet as it was in the old diet.

2923. Marquess of Salishuri).'] Has not the surgeon unlimited power in that
respect r

Yes, unlimited to any extent. There is a direction at. the bottom of the
scales, but he rarely adheres to it ; he gives what he thinks ])roper.

(37.9.) ll3 2924. Chairman,

270 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

E. Shtpheid,Esq. 292^. Climrman.] Do the Government convicts who ai'e in confinement at
T Wakefield enjoy the same dietary as the ordinary prisoners 1

^^^ ^ ^' No ; they enjoy a greatly increased dietary. I have not the quantities before
me, hut if the Committee will jud<ie by the expense, it is just exactly double
the expense of the West Riding dietary. I could furnish a copy of it.

2925. Does the dietary of a convict in Wakefield prison vary when he comes
in, or does he at once receive the maximum?

He at once receives the maximuai.

2926. Would that maximum considerably exceed the 320 oz. which you
. have described as the dietary of your fourth amended class ?

Not considerably ; but it does exceed it in the article of meat.

2927. Can you state to what account r
Twenty- eight cunces of cooked meat.

292 S. Instead of 16 oz , or in addition to the 16 oz. ?
Instead of the 16 oz.

2929. Are those 16 oz. of cooked meat, or uncooked meat ?

Ihey are all cooked meat. I think it is as well that your Lordships should
understand the enormous difference between meat cooked and meat given
uncooked. The 3 oz. of cooked meat for the West Riding prisoners is origi-
nally 9 oz., as bought in the market ; the bone and waste in boiling, and the
draughts in weighing out small quantities of 3 oz. each, make it exactly that
amount by the year together, so that it is really three times as much in bought
meat.

2030. Earl of Diidh'j/.] According to what you have told the Committee, that
would repi-esent 48 oz. of food ?
Yes, it does.

2931. Two-thirds, you say, go to waste in bone, in boiling, in weighing out,
and in fat ?

Yes.

2932. Chairman-I Are the convicts in Wakefield prison employed in the
same work as the prisoners in ordinary confinement ?

Yes, exactly.

2933. But yet 1 understand from your answer that they receive 28 oz. of
meat, in lieu of 16 oz. ?

Yes, they do.

2934. Are you aware whether the convicts prefer confinement in Wakefield
prison to confinement in a Government prison ?

The prisoners on the West Riding side prefer the Government side to the
Wakefield side. I have heard it frequently said by prisoners, " Do let us be
transfeired over to the other side, and then we shall get more to eat."

2935. Does a convict dietary in Wakefield Prison include 3oz. of cocoa,
3 oz. of molasses, and 2 oz. of milk, on certain occasions ?

No, it is not that exactly ; it is a pint of milk in the morning for breakfast.
We have no cocoa.

2936. Do they have tea or coffee ?
No. ■

2937. In these respects you vary from the dietary laid down in Pentonville ?
Yes, we do vary in that respect from Pentonville.

2038. Earl of Dndlcj/.'] Who is answerable for the quantity of meat which
comes into the gaol ?
The steward and cook.

2()Vh Who has the right to all that is left ?

There is nothing at all left. What I mentioned to your Lordships as being
lost in boiling goes into the other meals of the prisoners, so that they get that
in addition, which is not considered.

2940. In

SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 27]

2940. In all cooking there is bone and ftit, which is never u:*d up again, is E.Sheplierd.Esq.
there not ?

The fat is used. I consider that fat is a most important element in a 21st April 1863.

prisoner's diet. I believe that no good diet can be made unless all the fat is

used. I believe it would be detrimental to health to dispose of the fat, or o-et
rid of it in any way whatever, except by giving it to the prisoners.

2941 . Is there no sale of broken meat from the prison ?
None, except of bones.

2042. Does the profit of that come to the establishment ?

Yes, the profit of that is deducted from the expense ; the bones are con-
tracted for exactly the same as the diet is contracted for ; there is a contract
issued annually for bones, by the ton.

2943. Then there are no perquisites in the shape of broken meat taken out
the gaol r
None whatever.

2944- Chainntm.] I observe that in your evidence of Thursday last, you
stated, in answer to a noble Lord, that the treadwheel was entirely given up in
Wakefield Prison, because it was so uncertain in punishment.

I. do not think I said that it was given up because it was so uncertain in
punishment : it fell into disuse on account of the great loss of weight as much
as anything else ; the prisoners who were subjected to it losing, in one week,
five pounds in weight perhaps, and in the second week two pounds or three
pounds, and in five weeks many of them would lose 10 pounds in weight.

2945. Earl of Dudley.'] Was not it found that that was all recovered after
the first fortnight.

No, it was not recovered, I did not intend to state expressly that the tread-
wheel was given up on account of" its being an uncertain punishment, but it was
given up, generally, on account of the loss of weight of the prisoners. It fell
into disuse principally on that account.

2946. Was it not that the magistrates set their faces against it, and said that
they would not permit it to be employed ?

It was something of that sort, certainly.

2947. Chairman.'] Can you state the grounds upon which the magistrates
were opposed to the use of it ?

I think the magistrates were opposed to it because they considered that it
was not a good punishment. The prisoners are sent to prison for two objects,
one to deter and another to reform : it might, in some respects, be more deterring
than other punishments, but certainly it had no reformatory tendencies. Many
men are sent to prison because they are idle ; and if they are set to some such
distasteful labour as the treadwheel or the crank, it was the opiinon of the
magistrates that they would detest work still more when they went out of
prison, and that instead of labour being a pleasure to them, it would be a
detestation.

2948. Consequently, it was given up rather because it did not effect the
reformatory objects of a prison, in the opinion of the magistrates, than because
it failed to punish ?

I think that was so, as nearly as I can recollect the reason.

2949. "Was it not in accordance with your former evidence that uncertainty
Vas one of the elements which entered into it ?

\ es, and it is in accordance with it now ; I am of the same opinion now.

2950. Will you explain to the Committee in what that uncertainty of the
treadwheel consists ?

I think I did mention to the Committee that it consisted in the |>revious
habits of the prisouers ; that persons of sedentary employments were punished
much more severely than others ; that persons who are the least criminal (if I
may use such a term), who come to prison for the first time, suffered far more
than old offenders, such as travelling thieves, vagabonds, and tramps, who are
accustomed to the treadwheel.

(37. 9.) L L 4 295 1 . Is

2/2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

K. Shepherd, Esq. 29.5!. Is it vour opinion that industrial employment of the coarsest nature,

such as mat-making, is in itself a punishment ?

2ist April 1863. Yes, I am sure it is.

29,52. Of course it would be a greater punishment in proportion as the person
was unaccustomed to the work ?

That, no doubt, is so in some respects, but not to the same extent.

^953- Consequently, mat-making of the coarsest character would be a heavier
punishment to a tramp who was constantly on foot in the country than it would
be to a man whose employment had been, during the greater part of his life,
to make mats r

The employments connected with making mats are various, and can be
adapted in a great measure to the abilities and the previous habits of either
agricultural men or men living in towns.

2954. Must it not, however, follow as a matter of necessity that the punish-
ment must vary with the different classes of persons who are sentenced to
punishment, and that it is absolutely impossible to obtain anything like precise
equality ?

It is absolutely impossible in any punishment whatever : whether it be the
treadwheel, or separate confinement without any work at all, or work of any
description, you cannot attain uniformity, even as a punishment, between one
man and another man.

2955. Must not any punishment vary, and vary to an enormous degree, in
l)roportion to the height, to the age, to the physical strength, and even to the
mentiil capability and moral endurance of the prisoners ?

Of course, and the treadwheel especially would vary with regard to a thin tall
man and a very stout man ; and there are various descriptions of employment
in the mat trade, which none but very strong men could work at.

2956. Consequently, the same objections of inequality and uncertainty which
apply to the treadwheel must, of necessity, apply to mat-making, or to any
other employment on which prisoners are engaged ?

No ; there may be in mat-making a diversity of punishment, but not to the
same extent ; because in mat-making the employments are so various that they
can be apportioned to the men : the treadwheel is uniform, and cannot be so
apportioned.

2957. Who apportions the work?
I do.

2958. How many prisoners have you under your charge ?
One thousand four hundred.

29'',9. Are the Committee to unde rstand that you succeed in apportioning very
justly, and very fairly to the physical strength and to the mental power of each
man, the amount of mat-making which is necessary in order to constitute hard
labour ?

1 think, taking the words in their widest sense, I do. Of course there are
exceptions to that rule, but I do believe I do it, in conjunction with the
officers under me, I having the general supervision of the concern.

2960. Do you believe that the apportionment which a single individual can
make amongst 1,400 men who are passing annually through a gaol, approaches
more nearly to correctness than the apportionment of labour which you would
have on the treadwheel?

Certainly it does. For instance, all the persons who come into confinement
to-day, 1 ))iace out to the several enii)loyments tln-oughout the prison on the
morrow ; and in the event of any of those men not being adapted to that
employment, or failing in any way to succeed, either from want of capacity or
from want of strength, they are brought before me again. In fact, they are
brought before me twice every wi'ek ; I see the work that every man does in
the prison twice every week ; it is brought before my eyes, and 1 have to
change it according to circumstances.

2961. I understand at the same time tliat there is no task-work in Wakefield
Prison ?

Yes.

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 273

Yes, there is ; I have laid before your Lordships a correct copy of the task- £. Shepherd, Esq.
work. It varies in some minor matters from what I stated before. I have given ■— -

in a statement of the number of mats made by men in prison, and the number gist April i8t>3.
made bv workmen in the Industrial Home who have been prisoners, the
description of mats, and the hours of labour. Of common mats made in looms,
the minimum quantit\- jx-r week is 30 ; of the best mats made on boards, six.
The number of common mats that the best workmen can make in prison is 40 ;
the number made by workmen out of doors is 80. With regard to the best
mats on hoards, si.x is the minimum niimber; the best workmen in prison can
make 10, and the number made by workmen out of doors is 16 — the hours of
labour being 8i in prison, and 11 out of doors. If the hours of labour were
alike, the best workmen in prison, instead of making 40, would at the same rate
of time make 62, and instead of making 10 of the stronger sort, they would
make 13. 1 have obtained those details from the actual figures.

2962. Then the Committee understand that you do not exact as task-work
from the prisoners the same amount of mat-making which a free labourer would
spontaneously perform for himself?

No ; we should be glad to exact it, but we cannot get it. No prison labour,
no slave labour, or anything else of that kind, will come up to what a free
labourer out of doors will do who is paid by the );iece.

21103. Is it not jiossible, on the other hand, to obtain a more regular and
fixed pro])ortion of labour, where you have such a machine as the treadwheel
or the crank, where a certain number of revolutions, which may be graduated to
the strength of every individual, can be required ?

You could not graduate the treadwheel.

2964. Y'ou could apportion it ?

But you must work at exactly the same rate on the treadwheel : it would be
- uniform of course.

2965. Would it not be possible to proportion the labour of the treadwheel by
hours as well as by mechanical springs or other contrivances ?

Yes, it could be done certainly.

2960. Would you not in that case secure much greater certainty of punish-
ment than you possibly could by mat making ?•

No, I think not ; nor under any circumstances do I think you would.

2967. Have you not stated already in evidence, that on increasing the food
for the prisoners, 30U have fountl that they worked with much greater will, and
produced a great many more mats ?

Yes.

2968. Does net that show that they were working very much below their
strength ?

It shows that they were working very much below their abihty, l)ut not their
strength. The fact of their doing more work necessitated their having more
food ; the diet that is given in the scale before your Lordships, is givt-n on the
lowest scale, not on the highest. If men do more work, they exercise their
physical powers more, and they require more food. Those men had more food,
and they kept up to their standard of weight ; but if they had done that work
which 1 explained to your Lordships without havipg more to eat, they would
have fallen off in weight materially.

2969. Are the Committee to understand that that increase in the number of
mats made was simply attributable to the increase of diet, and not to the induce-
ment which was held out to the men to work r

The increase of diet was the inducement.

2970. Was it on the strength of that food that they made the mats, or was
it from the moral bribe which you held out ?

It was from the moral bribe ; but the food was required in consequence of
their strength decreasing from their greater exertions.

2971. Is there a fixed dietary in the Industrial Home which is attached to the
prison ?

No, it is not attached to the prison at all ; it is exactly the same as any
(37. 9.) M M common

2/4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

E. Shepherd, Esq. common factory, the only difference being, that the men are not allowed to leave

, '. ~ ^„ the establishment till 9 o'clock at nisrht, and instruction is given to them in the
2lst April 1603,

2972. Mai'quess of Salishury.'] May they have what food they like ?
Yes, they may have any food they like.

2973. Have they more food there than they got in prison ?
Yes, they have.

2974. Have you any means of estimating to what extent it is greater in
amount r

No, I have not, except so far as this, that when men first go there and can-
not earn enough to keep themselves, as many cannot, say, for three weeks,
perhaps, they have food given them at about the same ratio as the food of the
prison ; and I find that they are very anxious, very soon indeed, to find their
own food : the moment they can earn enough to pay their own expenses they
find their own food ; they remain on the prison ratio no lonaer than they can
help.

2q7.). Earl Cathcart.] Is the use of beer or tobacco, or both, allowed in the
Industrial Home ?

Yes, a man can take beer there, but he does not smoke inside the place, or
drink ; it is just the same as inside a factory.

20/6. Chainnan.~\ Do you object to the use of the crank in the same way
as you do to the treadwheel?

Yes : I object to it on account of what I consider the bad effect which all
forced labour of that description has.

2977. Whether the crank be applied to productive purposes or to unpro-
ductive ?

Yes. I am anxious that men should, if possible, by their time in prison not
detest laboia- — that when they go out of doors it should come to them na-
turally ; and 1 feel that I could not in any way sanction a labour that would
make it detestable to them.

2978. Do you think that the use of the treadwheel or the crank is degrad-
ing to a man 't

1 sliould think so. I know nothing of the crank labour ; we never had a
machine, but I judge that they would feel it so.

2979. Do you believe that they would feel the treadwheel with which you
were cognisant as an irritating punishment ?

Yes, 1 do.

2980. Have the prisoners ever expressed that feeling ?

There is an impression on my mind that such has been the case, but I
could not enter into any details upon the point ; it is nearly 20 years ago since
it was given up.

298 ! . Would you object to the use of tlie crank if it was applied to the pump-
ing of water ?

If I could in any way find out that such a labour for very short sentences
would be very deterring, it would really take away a great i)art of my objec-
tion, if I could truly satisfy myself that such was the case for short periods.

2982. Duke of Richmond.] You stated, did you not, that one objection which
you had to the use of the treadwheel was, that it reduced the prisoners so much
in weight?

Yes.

2983. Then, in another answer, you stated, did you not, that when they
made an excessive quantity of mats, you were obliged to increase their food r

Yes.

29S4. Would not the same course be practicable with regard to the tread-
wheel as you have pursued with regard to the mats — namely, that if 30U found
the prisoners reduced too much by "work on the treadwheel, you would increase

their

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 275

their food in the same manner as you do when they increase the number of E. Shepherd, Esq.
mats which they make r ~

Yes, that would be necessarily so ; but the result would not be the same. In ^ ' ^'" ' ^*
the one case, it does not do away with their detestation of forced labour of that
sort ; but in the other case it encourages habits of industry, and makes them feel
the A'alue of natural labour in contradistinction to forced labour.

j()8> Would not that have reference merely to the reformatory jiart of
punishment, and not to the deterring part ?
Yes, it would, certainly.

29S6. "\'ou have divided the question of punishment into two classes, one
deterring and the other reformatory ; would not the treadwheel have a more
deterring effect upon prisoners than mat-making?

I have not found it so.

2987. Earl of Dudley. 1 How many years is it since you have tried the expe-
riment ?

It nuist be approaching 20 years.

298S. DuVe oi Richmond.'] You object to the treadwheel because you say it
makes prisoners, when they go out of prison, detest labour?
Yes.

2q8q. Will you explain to the Committee in what way it makes them detest
labour r Supposing a man is sentenced to three weeks' hard labour on the tread-
wheel, how would that make him detest labour when he went out of prison,
and what labour would it make him detest r

The observations which 1 have made to your Lordships referred in a great
measure to long sentences, in which habits are formed. The habit of industry,
the habit of cleanliness, the habit of early rising', and all good habits of that sort,
when formed, very frequently continue ; and the liabit of industry, when formed,
makes labour pleasant instead of irksome to a n:an after he goes out of prison.
I conceive that the treadwheellabour will make any labour irksome to him; he
w(juld fl)- from the one extreme immediately to the other extreme of idleness.

2990. But there is, surely, in the treadwheel labour nothing that is contrary
either to habits of cleanliness or habits of early rising ?

No ; I am speaking generally of habits being formed.

2991. You have not quite answered my question; what sort of labour and
in what manner would the treadwheel have the effect of making a jirisoner
detest, in the case of long-sentence prisoners, for instance r

Any monotonous forced labour of that kind would have that tendency.

2902. In what way would it make a man detest labour out of doors, and
what labour would it make him detest ?

I can only say that my impression is that it would have that tendency
without exactly explaining in what manner it would act.

299.^ Earl of J5?/(7c.] Do not you think it might so happen that productive
labour, on his coming out of prison, might be positively a relief and be
palatalile to him after a course of treadwheel unproductive labour r

( think not.

291)4. Duke of Jlklnntmd.'] Take the case of an agricultural labourer who
had been at the plough or working on a farm, and had committed an offence
for which he was sentenced to six months' hard labour, and worked out his
sentence on the treadwheel : do you imagine that at the expiration of that
six months, when that man was discharged and he would naturally go to seek
his former employment, the labour of an agricidtural labourer would become
irksome to him because he had been six months upon the treadwheel ?

The chiss ot persons that you would have more especially to deal with in
prisons would be old offenders, rogues, vagabonds, and tramps ; they are a
class of persons that you would be more anxious t(J affect than agricultural
labourers; and with regard to that class of persons, with whom you would
certainly want to deal more stringently, I have no doubt that it would have a
bad effect, for I cannot help feeling that they would immediately fly to the
other extreme.

(37. 9.) M M 2 2995. Am

2/6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

E. Shepherd. Esq. -'QOS- Am I to gather from youj that your answer as to the inefficiency of
— — the treadwiieel would apply more to old offenders and rogues and vagabonds

2 1st, April 1863. ^-^^^^^ ^^ ^^j^^^. fjescriptions of persons /

Yes, it would.

•jggo. r\nd that you would prefer giving to old otFenders, and rogues and
vagabonds, the occupation of mat-making to giving them the treadwheel ?
Yes. I prefer it for every one; not only for old offenders, but for all prisoners.

■-'997. But when I asked you whether, in the case of an agricultural labourer
who had been sentenced to six months' hard labour, and had served it on the
treadwheel, you thouglit that the fact of his having been on the treadwheel
would make him detest the labour to which he returned, I imderstood you to
say tliat your answer applied more to old offenders, and rogues and vagabonds,
than to ])ri.-oners from the class of agricultural lal)ourers ?

I should imagine that, with regard to old offenders, they would detest labour,
and I do believe it would be the case with regard to agricultural labourers also ;
because I cannot help feeling that the character of the labour that is given to
them would not be favourable to their returning to any useful employment.

21198. With regard to those old offenders, rogues and vagabonds, it would
scarcely be a return, because their former employment could scarcely be called
useful ?

No ; but I was dividing \\\y observation into two parts.

•i9()9. You told us that you object to the treadwheel also, on account of its
inequality, as it affected different men in different ways : how do you tind out
the capacity of the prisoners for making mats when they come into the pri-on ?
Say that you have a dozen men sentenced, and they come under your care on
any one day, and some of them sentenced for short sentences (some three
weeks, some six weeks, and some two months), how do you find out vvliat their
capacity is ?

Some descriptions of mats require little more than manual labour, some
require some amount of ingenuity of mind, and the men are apportioned to the
sort of work that would be required.

3000. But how do you apportion them ; how do \()u find out their capacity .-
By the j)risoner's appearance, in the first .place, and afterwards by examina-
tion.

.:>'

500 ! . One class of mats, you say, requires little more than manual labour ;
what description of labour does it require ?
The labour of the fingers.

3002. Then some men might be much more apt with their fingers than
others, might they not ?

Certainly ; I have stated that there is a mininmni of six required, but some
prisoners make JO.

3003. One man may be very apt with his fingers, and another man may be
exceedingly clumsy : how soon do you find out which is the m^in who is chnnsy
and which is the man who is apt ; l)ecause the one mat which, you tell us,
requires very little manual labour, would, to the man who is very clever with
his fingers, probablv be no trouble, whereas to a man who had been driving a
plough all his life, and is very clumsy with his fingers, it might be very great
labour r

The daily o])seivation, by myself and others, u])on such great numbers soon
teaches us to apportion thework to the proper parties.

3004. Have you ever any prisoners come in who deceive you?
Yes.

3005. Is it easy to detect deception in that particular branch of mat-

malimg?

1 think it is -, a man is soon detected.

3006. Earl of Dudle)/.] You divided the punishment in gaol, just now, into
two classes, deterrent and reformatory : do you exclude the punishing element
altogether ?

No; the deterrent element is punishment.

■^007. You

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE.

277

3007. You do not call inniishinent deterrent: the deterrent effect has regard
to the next crime, and not to the one which has been committed ?

I do mean "deterrent" by "punishment."

3008. I ask you this very distinctly, because at the present day there is a
very great distinction made between the two, and, in fact, a very large portion
of society would do away with punishment altogether : do you mean that the
deterrent effect would be produced upon the prisoner himself, or upon others
who are likely to f^dl into the same crime ?

I merely refer to the prisoner himself, and not to the effect of the punishment
upon persons who have never experienced it.

3009. You admit tlie necessity for punishing a man for what he ha^ done
against society, with a hope that he will be deterred from doing it for the
future ?

Yes.

3010. Do you consider that such i)unishment as you give in your gaol is
deterring r

I have before me, which I am going to put before your Lordships, a table,
showing the number of criminals to the population in all the English counties.
The discipline at Wakefield is pretty much the same as has been pursued for a
very long time ; the prison at Wakefield takes in all the prisoners that are
committed from the West Riding, with the exception of the borough of Leeds,
where they have a separate jurisdiction and prison. I cannot help thinking
that the position in which the West Riding stands, with regard to criminality,
is a favourable one, and so favourable that some part of it must be due to the
prison discipline. There are, as your Lordships know, 40 counties in England.
For the sake of illustrating this, I have divided Yorkshire into three parts,
as they are quite separate and distinct. The counties in which there is the
smallest proportion of criminals to the population, are Cuml)erland, Cornwall,
Huntingdon, Suffolk, Bedford, Wilts, and Rutland. Then comes the eighth,
the West Riding of the county of Yorkshire. The ratio of criminals in the
"West Riding to the population, in 1861, is one prisoner to every 301 of the in-
habitants; the proportion in all England is one prisoner to every 169. I will
hand in this table, which may, perhaps, be interesting to your Lordships on
some other inquiry.

E. S/,rpl/erd, Esq.
2 1 St Apiil 1^63.

The same is delivered in, and is as follows : —

Table (C.)

Showing the Number of Criminals to the Population in all the English Counties.

COUNTY.

1. Cumberland --....

2. Cornwall

3. Huntingdon --....

4. Suffolk

5. Bedford -------

6. Wilts

7. Rulland

8. West Riding, excluding the borough of Leeds t

9. Cambridge --....

10. North Riding - - . .

11. Buekinnliam ----..

12. Homer^^et - ---._.

13. Leicester -----.

14. Derby

Population.

205,276
369,390
64,250
337,070
135,287

249.3 1 1
21,861

1,300,631
176,016
245,154
1 (".7,993
444,873

237.4 1 2
339,327

Criminals,

exclusive of

Debtors.

468
890
175
956
408
777
69

4,321
615
862
616

1,738
935

1,382

Ratio of

Criminals

to Population.

lo 438-6
41o-
367-1
362-5
331-5
320-8
316-8
30'-
286-2
284-4
272-7
255-9
253-9
245-5

* Taken from Population Return for 1861.

: The bo
jnimitted.

(37. 9.)

t Taken from Judicial .'statistics for 18C1.
conrnTiUed"™"^'' ""^ "^'"^' ^'"^ "" '"P^"""'" jurisdiction, and a prison, .0 which offenders are

M M 3

278

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

E. S/icpherd, Esq.
2ist April 1863.

Criminals,

Proportion of

COUNTY.

Population.

exclusive of

Criminals

Debtors.

to Population.

15. Lincoln --------

412,246

1,737

1 to 237-3

16. Westmoreland- ------

60,817

259

234-8

17. Sussex ..---.--

363,73-5

1,575

230-9

18. Dorset

188,789

851

221-8

19. Northampton

227,704

1,027

•221-7

20. Durham

508,606

2,324

218 8

21. Essex

404,851

1,855

218-2

22. Worcester -------

3117,397

1,461

210-4

23. Oxford - -

170,944

816

209-4

24. Hereford

173,280

828

200-2

25. Devon .------.

584,373

2,812

207-8

26. Berks

176,256

852

206-8

27. Norfolk

434,798

2,132

2039

28. Salop

240,959

1,186

•203-1

29. Monmouth

174,033

865

201-8

30. Warwick

561,855

2,797

200-8

31. Chester

5116,428

2.521

200-4

32. Hereford

123,712

641

193-

33. Nottinijham -------

293,867

1,613

182-1

34. Staftbrd

746,943

4,138

180-5

35. Gloucester

485,770

2,790

174-1

36. Kent

733,887

4,338

1691

37. Northumberland --,.-.

343,025

2,22'J

154-

38. East Riding -------

240,227

1,661

144-6

39. Southampton -------

481,815

3,393

142-

40. Lancaster

2,429,440

18,952

128-2

4 1 . Surrey --------

831,093

6,744

123-2

42. Middlesex

2,206:485

22,638

97-4

England -

18,954,444

111,966

169-2

England and Wales - - - - -

20,066,224

115,647

173-5

The Population and Criminals of Yorkshire are shown under the throe Ridings.
* Taken from Population Return for 1861. f Taken from Judicial Statistics for 1801.

Riding?

30 1 1 . Earl of Ducic] What large manufacturing towns have you in the West

(ling?

Sheffield, Bradford, Halifax, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, and Wakefield.

.--012. So that a large amount of your population is congregated in masses r
Yes, thev are congregated in masses ; and, generally speaking, those that are
in larsre towns are of the most criminal class.

3013. Chairman.'] You have stated, have you not, that the prisoners enjoy
from an hour to an hour and a half of exercise each day r

The average is an hour and a half.

3014. That exercise, of course, is given inasmuch as the hard labour in
Wakefield consists of sedentary occupation ?

Yes.

301 5. Assuming tl.at the hard labour was on the treadwheel or on the crank,
I presume that you would not feel it incumbe.tt upon you to order that exercise 1

No we did not have exercise when we had the treadwheel for tliat class of
prisoners ; there was never any great number of that class ; there were only 40
of such prisoners in prison at any tim(^

3016. What is the nature of the exercise which you allow ? „ . .
Walking in a large open space of about an acri% 5(5 prisoners walking in

three circles, and three officers walking the reverse way.

3017. Do the prisoners wear masks ?
No.

3018. Did thev ever do so!
Yes.

3019-

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 2/9

30 ]g. On what ground did )'ou abolish them ? E, Shepherd, Esq.

In the West fliding no prisoners ever wore masks but the convicts- ,—7 „^

° ^ 21st April 1863.

3020. Are you of opinion that the prisoners recognise each other during this
exercise r

Yes, and they did in masks.

3021. Are you of opinion that, inasmuch as they recognise each other during
exercise, any communication passes betvFeen prisoner and prisoner ?

There is communication, because we find it out ; but I beUeve that there is
no communication to any hurtful extent but what is found out. I presume
it is possible for communication to take place, because we may not find it aU
out.

qO'22. Do vou believe that one half of the cases of communication which go
on between prisoner and prisoner are reported to you?
Yes ; I should think 8 out of 10.

3023. Is the space in which the men are exercised a yard, or is it a field, or
shrubbery ?

It is a large open space with grass, except in the place where the prisoners
walk, which is of flags.

3024. Can you state what is the time and what are the circumstances under
which the greatest amount of communication, so far as you are aware of, goes
on ; is it at the time of exercise ?

I think it is during the exercise.

3025. Are you aware of communications passing in chapel?
Yes, sometimes.

3026. Are you aware of communications passing in school?
Yes, sometimes.

3027. Do you believe that partitions would have the effect of preventing
that ?

I believe just the contrary. We took tliem down on that very ground,
because the communication was, at that time, twenty times as much as it is
now.

30ii8. On what do 3'ou ground that belief?

From statements made to us by prisoners, and from the defective observation
it w'as impossible to have a keen inspection of the prisoners at the time ; sitting
down or standing u|) makes a great diflference in their height, and prisoners
have modes of communication through crevices, under the doors or other ways,
and knocking, and little communications of various kinds, that it was impos-
sible to detect them in those cases. I think there was no greater mistake ever
made than to have separate partitions in the chapel.

3029. Are you aware whether the prisoners prefer the absence of partitions
to their existence r

Yes, I know they prefer it ; because, in the partitions at Wakefield, we had
fi-equently to take them out of the chapel fainting, on account of the imperfect
ventilation that must necessarily arise in those close places.

3030. Do you know whether the prisoners like the exercise in the open
air ?

Yes, very much.

3031. Would it be the withdrawal of a great privilege if they were deprived
of it ?

Very great punishment indeed. That is one of the subjects I have to bring
before your Lordships in the way of discipline.

3032. Are the Committee to understand generally, from all that you have
stateil to-day, that you disapprove of that which some witnesses have called the
penal and irksome element in prison discipline r

I do not disapprove of the irksome element at all ; but the irksome element
does not necessarily include the treadwhecl or crank labour. I can mention an
irksome element which has a uuich greater effect 1 think than that.

(37- 9.) M M 4 3033. Would

280 mintjTes of evidence taken before the

B. Shepherd, E.<^q. 3033- "^Voulcl you state to the Committee that which you consider to be the
2isiAmT)gf3 ^^''!"^^^.^' t'le most stringent, and most irksome labour which is inflicted in
' ■ ^^ aketicld, distinguishing what is liardest and what is most irksome .'

The hardest is making mats ; the most irksome labour would be teasing cocoa
fibre, which is commonly calkd oalium picking ; we have no picking oakum, but
it answers to that in common parlance.

3034. In the case of short sentences, VThich do you apply?
Picking oakum.

3035. For how many hours continuously are they employed?

Those men are employed longer hours than the generality of them, for they
do not go to school, and they do not go to exercise, in the case of many of those
who are sentenced for short periods.

3036. Practically, for how many hours continuously does a short-sentenced
prisoner work at picking oakum ?

Five liours continuously.

3037. Is that the total amount during the course of the day.
No, it is double that; they work 10 hours.

3038. And what are the number of pounds which are the result of those 10
hours?

As we have not really picking oakum, the employment is not so uniform and
cannot be so easily measured ; sometimes it amounts to 20 lbs., and sometimes to
not above 3 lbs. ; it is opening a very hard ts\ isted strand, and it is not uniform in
the strand. If the strand is very hard twisted indeed, it could not be more
than 3 lbs. ; if it is loosely twisted it might be 20 lbs.

3039. Practically, you have no piecework in the case of picking oakum,
which you exact from every prisoner, without allowing him to make any de-
duction ?

Supposing a man does less than 6 lbs., he is reported to me, and then I judge
by the nature of his employment whether, in my opinion, he could do more or
less.

3040. Is that rule explained to the prisoners ?

Yes, it is.

304 1 . Do you find that many do more than six pounds .^

Yes ; many do 20 ; but then it is a rather lighter kind, pex'haps.

3042. Do you find that, in fact, the prisoners do more than they are required
to do ?

Yes, some do ; I should think that 10 per cent., perhaps, do more than they
are required to do.

3043. Are the Committee to understand that when a short-sentenced pri-
soner is ])laced in his cell, and is required to pick oakum, it is explained to him
that 6 lbs. is the minimum amount which he is required to pick, and that he
sometimes produces as many as 20 lbs. ?

Yes ; but it ought to be explained that the 20 lbs. is sometimes much easier
to do than the 0 lbs. required ; what we have to do is not so uniform as
oakum.

3044. Is 0 lbs., and 6 lbs, alone, the amount which is exacted from
every one ?

Ko, it is not ; I was obliged to give the Committee some idea about it, but
six is not the only amount ; it depends entirely upon the nature of the work.

304.5. Duke of Richmond.^ Short-sentenced prisoners are sentenced, are
they not, to what is conniionly called oakum picking.
Yes, as a I'ule, but not all.

3046. When a man commences ujion that hard labour, as it is called, his
task is given him in the morning, I conclude?

Yes, it is given him once a-day.

3047. In the morning?

It is given him at four o'clock in the afternoon.

3048. That

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 281

3048. That is to say, a prisoner delivered into your charge at five o'clock in E, Shepherd, Esq.

the afternoon would have his oakum delivered to him at four o'clock the next ~" ,^

r^ - 2 let April 1863.

afternoon 1 ______

A prisoner for the first 24 hours is not sent into the regular prison ; he is

confined in a separate part ; he comes into the prison at two o'clock every day,

and at four o'clock he would have his work given to him.

3049. In fact, his sentence commences at four o'clock in the afternoon ; he
has an amount of oakum which he is to work at from four o'clock one afternoon
to four o'clock the next afternoon ?

Exactly ; and according to the difficulty or otherwise of making it, it is
weighed out to him ; every man's work is weighed once a-day.

3050. Is he told, when it is weighed out to him, how much he must return?
No ; he has to return the whole of it.

3051. When it is weighed out to him, you may be giving him to do a great
deal more than that which you imagine you are giving him if it works up much
more easily ?

It is weighed out according to the requirement in labour ; the manager
judges whether it is easy or difficult.

3052. When the manager gives it him, does he know whether that man will
be able to produce 6 lbs. or 20 lbs. ?

Yes, he knows whether 6 lbs. ought to be his task, or 20 lbs., or less than 6 lbs.
sometimes.

3053. Does he judge from the state of the strand when he gives it to him?
Yes, he does.

3054. It would be equally difficult to produce 6 lbs. or 20 lbs., as the strand
is difficult ?

Yes, that is what I mean.

3055. That would depend, of course, as in mat-making, upon the aptitude of
the man, would it not r

Yes, it would ; but not exactly to the same extent.

3056. Lord Wensleydale.'] Are the Committee to understand from that that
you make no difference between those who are convicted and sentenced to hard
labour and those who are not ?

I have never used such a term as would convey that ; we do make a difference.
The difference with regard to those persons who are not sentenced to hard
labour would be, that they are allowed to work at employments that cannot be
measured, and that they are sent out to work more in association than
others.

3057. They are all made to labour?

Yes ; every man is made to labour, except he is in prison waiting for
trial.

30.') 8. Earl oi Ducie.'] You exercise a considerable amount of discretion, do
you not, in apportioning the amount of labour ?

Yes ; it is absolutely necessary to do so in every employment of that sort.

3059. Therefore the proper conduct of the prison depends entirely upon the
activity and discretion of the manager and governor ?

Yes, it does.

3060. You think that no set of rules would supply the place of an active
governor ?

I fear not. I have seen cases where rules are made stringent, and there has
always been some great difficulty about them. Take, for instance, the case of
a rule of this sort. A prisoner can have his food weighed ; the effect of tliat
is, that numl)ers of them have their food weighed three times a day for a year
together. Many of them would say, " I will have my food weighed," without
looking at it or anything else. There is great difficulty in laying down special
rules.

3061 . Earl of Romncy.'] Is it not very difficult for a court to pass a sentence,
(37. 9.) N N when

282 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

^. Shepherd, Esq. when it has not the least know ledge or guess what the effect of it will

T Rfi ^^^

^"* ^" '^' The effect, as far as Wakefield is concerned, is that all men are sentenced to
labour, hard or otherwise, according to the sentence.

3062. Chainnan.'] Are not the terms of the sentence always that if such and
such a prisoner is sentenced to labour, he should be sentenced to hard labour
if labour is included in the sentence at all ?

Yes; and as a rule between 80 and 90 men out of every 100 are sentenced
to hard labour.

3063. But in your opinion the hardest labour which the prison at Wake-
field imposes, is mat making ?

Yes.

3064. You are conversant, of course, more or less with the reports that have
been issued at different times on the subject of prison discipline ?

Yes.

306,5. In 1835, the Committee of the House of Lords reported on the ques-
tion of prison discipline, and they imply throughout their report that hard
labour did form a part of prison discipline ?

Yes.

3066. Are you of opinion that when they used the term " hard labour,"
they mainly used it with regard to the treadwheel?

I should almost gather that they did, but I cannot say what their Lordships
may mean. I should perhaps think it possible that it might be so.

3067. You are acquainted also, no doubt, with the Committee of the House
of Lords of 1847?

Yes.

3068. And hard labour there again forms a part of their recommenda-
tion ?

It does.

3069. Are you of opinion that in the minds of that Committee hard labour
meant to imply work on the ti-eadwheel ?

I believe that it did in that case, or the crank.

3070. You are aware, also, are you not, of the Committee of the House of
Commons in 1 850 ?

Yes.

3071 . And that hard labour formed a very prominent part of the recommend-
ation of tliat Committee ?

Yes.

3072. Are you of opinion that the hard labour implied the treadwheel and
the crank ?

I think it specially did in that case.

3.73. And in the Gaol Act of the 4th of George the Fourth, chap. 64, wliere
it is stated, " that due pro%'ision shall be made in every prison for the enforce-
ment of hard labour in the case of such prisoners as may be sentenced thereto ;"
do you believe that it was in the mind of the Legislature at that time that hard
labour implied the treadwheel?

1 should think it was not at that time in the minds of the Legislature. If I
remember rightly, the words of the clause are, " That due provision shall be
made in every prison for the enforcement of hard labour in the case of such
prisoners as may be sentenced thei-eto."

3074. Lord Wenski/dale.] That would show that some instrument should be
prepared?

I do not think so. Perhaps your Lordships will allow me to read the whole
of it through : " That due provision shall be made in every prison for the
enforcement of hard labour in the cases of such prisoners as may be sentenced
thereto, and for the employment of otiier prisoners. The means of hard labour
shall be provided, and the materials requisite for the employment of prisoners

shall

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 283

shall be purchased, under such regulations as may be made for that purpose by E. Shepherd, Egq>

the justices." 21st ATFiSea.

3075. Earl of DncUei/.'] That does not bear out the construction that you

were trying to put upon it : it says that means of hard labour shall be found in

each prison, and that materials for industrial occupation shall be purchased for
the employment of prisoners r

There is a subsequent Act which refers to descriptions of hard labour other
than the treadwheel.

3076. Chairman^ Do you not believe, from the words of that Act of the
4th of George the Fourth, by hard labour, the labour of the treadwheel was
intended r

1 do not indeed, for I think that the treadwheel was very little known in that
day when that Act was passed.

3077. Earl oi Dudley.] Has not the use of the treadwheel, and perhaps of
the crank also, been a subject of frequent discussion by the magistrates of the
West Riding ; has not it been a moot question in that part of the county ?

The crank was never brought before the Adsiting justices but once. I was
sent by order of our visiting justices to Leicester, and when I came back I made
a report upon the subject of the crank. I know that it was decidedly stated
that it should not be aclopred in Wakefield.

3078. Lord Wensleydale.'] You have stated, have you not, that there never
was any order upon that subject.

No.

3079. Earl of Dudley.'] Therefore the visiting magistrates have taken upon
themselves, in the exercise of their discretion, to put on one side the sentence
of hard labour, as given by courts of law ?

Yes, if your Lordship will consider the hard labour to mean the treadwheel
only.

3080. I think you have stated in your evidence that mat making could not
be called hai d labour.

I said that it was hard labour in the way that they do it.

3081. You have shown us that you can get a certain proportion of mats made
on a small diet, and a certain greater proportion on an increased diet, which
you call a moral brilie ; and that when those same men are out of prison working
for themselves, employing 2 I hours more per day, they can make a very largely
increased number if they choose ?

Yes.

3082. Therefore it is fair to say from that that you cannot get hard labour
out of them if they are not disposed to give it, and you have said that some
men will do more work than others ?

Yes.

3083. Rut that you cannot compel hard labour where a man will not give it ?
We cannot compel a man to do so much as he does do out of doors.

3084. But you cannot compel a man to give you what honestly would be
called a hard day's labour, or hard labour, such as is meant when a sentence is
passed upon the prisoner ?

With regard to the West Riding, the magistrates all know that a sentence
passed upon a prisoner of hard labour means, that he shall work at an employ-
ment of that kind in prison.

30 85. Is it not in the power of the governor of the gaol to reduce the
standard of hard labour as low as he likes f

I believe that is in the discretion of the governor of the prison.

3086. Could you answer that question distinctly r
1 could not do that.

3087. Cannot the governor of a gaol lower the standard of the industrial
occupation as low as he hkes ?

Not without authority from the justices.

(37. 9.) N N 2 3088. We

284 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

£. Shepherd, Esq. 3088. We are supposing that the justices are agreed with him ; can he do

— 7- so, or can he not?

.sjst April 1863. Yes, I beUeve he can, supposing the justices are agreed with him.

3089. Cannot the surgeon raise the diet of the prisoner as high as he hkes :
Yes.

3090. Chairman.'] Reverting to my previous question, I refer you now to the
2d and 3rd of the Queen, chapter 56 ; under the 5th clause you will find the
different classes into which prisoners are to be divided, and the third class con-
tains prisoners convicted and sentenced to hard labour. Now, I ask you
whether in your opinion it was in the mind of the Legislature when those words
were used, that hard labour implied the treadwheel ?

I should not think that it was in the minds of the Legislature at that time.

3091. Lord Wensleydale.] Do you not think they intended it to imply some-
thing analogous to the treadwheel ?

Of course.

3092. Chairman.'] You believe that the term "hard labour " is appHcable to
any sort of employment ?

Yes, I do.

3093. On what ground was it, then, that in the Act of the 4th of George the
Fourth, " hard labour " and " employment " were specified as two descriptions
of punishment upon the prisoners ?

I think that there are other objects besides work, with regard to which a
man is sentenced to hard labour or not to hard labour ; there is a difference in
the prison treatment, and there are other things that the sentence of hard
labour refers to besides actual employment.

3094. You have stated to the Committee that in your belief the Committee
of 1835, the Committee of 1847, and the Committee of 1850, all imphed the
use of the treadwheel when they employed the words " hard labour," but that
the Act of the 2d and 3rd of the Queen, did not necessarily imply the tread-
wheel ?

I stated that I did not know that the Legislature meant those words to
imply the treadwheel or the crank, although I think that the Committee might
have done so. The Act of Parliament authorising separate confinement is a
later Act than that, and certainly it was never intended that all the cells should
be fitted up with cranks.

3095. Are you aware of the course that is pursued generally in the gaol at
Reading?

Yes.

3096. Are you aware that their self-instruction, as it is termed, is made the
basis of the system ?

Yes.

3097. And that hard labour is excluded r
Yes.

3098. Are you of opinion that a system of which self-instruction forms the
basis, is really carrying out the idea and intentions of the Legislatui-e, so far
as they can be gathered from the Committees, and from the Acts of Parlia-
ment ?

I do not believe that at Reading they carry out the intention of the Legisla-
ture, or of the Act of Parhament, because I think that the Act has decided
that the prisoners shall have employment in separate cells, if I remember
rightly.

3099. But do you consider the work that you give in the prison at Wake-
field, is such Avork as was intended by the Act of Parliament ?

1 do not think that it is contrary to it.

3100. Earl of Dttdlei).] Did 1 not correctly understand you to state that the
Wakefield justices have used their own discretion in doing anything that they
thought they could ;is to liard labour within the meaning of the Act ?

Yes, I think they have done so.

3101. Lord

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 285

3101. J^vd We/!s/eyda/c.] Has that been done silently without any positive E. Shepherd, Esq,
order or agreement amongst them all ? ~~

It was done on agreement amongst the whole body of visiting magistrates. P" ^ ^'

3102. 'NA'as it done without any regular meeting for the purpose of con-
sidering whether it was or was not hard labour ?

Yes, it was done without a regular meeting.

3103. 'E&rX oi Dudley. '\ Do you think that that is a discretion which the
magistrates have ?

Yes, 1 think it is.

3104. C/iair7nan.] I understand fiom your former evidence that you disap-
prove of corporal punishmrut, except lor one particular offence, which is
striking an otKcer ?

Ves ; I think that I ought to qualify it a little in this way. I stated that the
magistrates were all opposed to flogging, except for that offence. I should have
said that the majority of them were opposed to it. I think I am not justified in
using as broad a term as the whole of them.

3105. I understand consequently that corporal punishment has been practi-
cally in disuse at Wakefield for several years past ?

Yes, it has.

3 1 06. Can you state on what ground it was disused, whether it was con-
sidered to be ineffective, or whether it was considered to be degrading to the
prisoners, or whether it was considered to be irritating to them ?

I believe that it would originally commence very possibly from an examina-
tion into the statistics of the return of prisoners who were flogged ; the return
of prisoners to prison who were flogged, amounted to 80 per cent., and the
magistrates tlierefore came to the conclusion that it was a bad punishment, as
a punishment ; that it had not a deterring effect with regard to the punish-
ment inflicted by the judges, and therefore that it had not equally a deterring
effect with regard to the punishment inflicted by themselves.

3107. Can you state from your own experience, whether corporal punish-
ment inflicted for the violation of prison rules has ever been ineffective '!

I have onl}" known one case, the West Hiding part, in 20 years, so that I
really have had very little experience with regard to corporal punishments in
prisons.

3108. Has only one case of flogging occurred in 20 years?
1 only remember one case.

3 1 09. During that time, I presume, you had more cases than one of violence
to prison officers ?

Yes ; a man has been indicted at the assizes.

3110. Has it ever happened that an officer has been struck, or been
assaulted by a prisoner, and that it has been passed over without any punish-
ment being inflicted ?

No, never.

3111. What has been the practice pursued ?

The practice has been to report such aggravated cases to the magistrates,
and their punishment is one which I will read to your Lordships. It is a mode
of punishment which the magistrates have adopted ; instead of a continuous
punishment for 14 days and one month, it is a varied one, and has been found
very effective for the prisoners. This refers to the 14 days' punishment by
order of the justices ; it is on the principle that if a man is 14 days on a very
low diet, day after day, he gets indiff"erent to it at the end of the term, and that
he does not feel the punishment so acutely as under this form, which is less
detrimental to tie man's health, and is a more severe punishment ; three days
dark cell on bread and water ; one day in his own cell, on the regular diet ;
three days in his own cell on bread and water ; one day in his own cell regular
diet; three days dark cell on bread and water ; one day in his own cell on
regular diet, and two days in his own cell on bread and water : making the 14
days.

(37.9.) NN3 3112. Are

286 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

E. Shepherd, Esq. '<^\2. Are the Committee to understand that this punishment of 14 days,

inflicted by order of the magistrates, is a punishment inflicted for a breach of

2 1st Apiil 1863. ti^g prison rules ?

■ Yes.

3113. Has it ever occurred, within your experience, that that punishment
has had to be repeated upon the same offender f

I think it has not.

3114. Has it been perfectly effective r
I think it has.

3115. If it has been effective, of course it has never been repeated?

No ; it has been so far effective that tlie prisoner has not committed a heavy
offence again to be reported to the justices ; he may have committed a minor
offence again.

3116- Lord Steward^ Has it acted as an example to others, and so pre-
vented the commission of offences ?

No ; but it would not be known to the others.

3117. But the corporal punishment would be known, would it not ?
It might be if it were inflicted in public.

31 iS. Do you not usually require the presence of all the prisoners at the
infliction of corporal punishment ?
No.

3119. You might do so, might you not?

You might do so. I have known it inflicted in the presence of six or seven,
or eight or ten, or whatever number the cell would accommodate.

3 1 20. If you wished to produce an example you might require the attend-
ance of the whole prison r

You cannot require the attendance of the whole 1,500 prisoners.

3121. C/iairman.'] Has it been the practice of the visiting justices to inflict
that particular punishment which you have mentioned, for the offence of
striking an officer r

Yes ; and for repeated idleness and repeated offences, of greater magni-
tude or more frequent character than I have thought proper to punish.

3122. In your opinion is that a sufficient punishment for those offences ?

It has been effective, except, as I say, I should like to have corporal punish-
ment to hold 171 terror em.

3123. Duke of Ricfnnond.] During those 14 days all labour ceases, does
it not ?

Yes.

3124. Lord Steicard.'] In respect to example, corporal punishment would
have the advantage over the punishment of which you have now been speaking,
would it not ?

I have no doubt that it would have perhaps more effect on others by obser-
vation than on the persons themselves.

31 2.5. Earl of Dudley.'] Could you state to the Committee whether you know,
of your own knowledge, that any man who has been in your gaol twice has
ever settled down to an honest occupation ?

Yes, scores.

3126. Do you know that of your own knowledge ?

I know of 200 such persons living in the neighbourhood of Wakefield at this
moment.

3127. Persons who have been twice in your gaol ?

No, not twice ; 1 cannot say how many have been twice, but there must have
been many tliat have been more than once out of that number. I am very
anxious to bring before the Committee this subject as being very important,
because I have a very strong conviction upon the difficulty of reforming old
offenders. I thought that in order thorouj^hly to understand this subject, it
would be well that your Lordships should know the class of persons tliat are

sent

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 287

sent to prisons. I liave, in the Paper that I have given in, stated that the class E. Shepherd, Esq.
is made up very much of okl offenders throughout tlie kingdom; hut I have ^istATiTiSos

gone more into detail with regard to the West Riding, and I find, on com- ^_^^

paring the present time with 30 years ago, some very extraordinary results :
that in the five years ending 1 83 1 there were committed to prison for the first
time, of residents in the West Riding of Yorkshire, 1,240 persons, and in the
five years ending 1861 there were only 1,285 residents committed; so that in
reality the number of offenders for the first sentence, who were residents in the
West Riding of Yorkshire, has been stationary. Of the non-residents, strangers,
tramps, travelling thieves, and others who are not known to have been pre-
viously in prison, in the five years ending 1831, 426 were committed, and in
thefive years ending 1861, 1,297. In the same area of five years, up to 1831,922
old offenders were committed to prison, and the number in 1861 was 1,784 old
offenders; so that the prison population is made up of strangers, travelling
thieves, and old offenders. In this length of time the sentences passed ujion
prisoners have decreased in the West Riding amazingly. I drew up, for the
chairman of the quarter sessions, a record of the sentences passed of penal
servitude, and it is really very surprising how that has altered since the year
1827. From 1827 to 1835 there were 836 old offenders, and the magistrates
sentenced 744 of them to transportation. Without taking the inteimediate
time, I will go to the last one; that is, the period of eight years from 1854
to 1862. There were then 1,452 old offenders, and only 546 were sen-
tenced to penal servitude. That is one mode of decreased punishment.
The average number of days that the prisoners were committed and kept in
custody in the West Riding 30 years ago was 66 ; now it is 56. Ten days
appear very little in one respect, but when it is multiplied by 5,000, which
is the number committed in the prison, it is actually 50,000 days less con-
finement than there used to be. And this falls upon the class of prisoners
that ought to have the greatest amount of punishment, viz., the old offenders.
The first offences have remained stationary, and it is quite evident that the
old offenders have been dealt with more and more leniently every year. The
subject is of importance, because the number of recommittals of old uffeu-
ders is so different from the number of recommittals of men for the first
offence. The re commitments of men sent for the first offence, taking many
thousands, as I have done, are 26 per cent., and the recommitment .of old
offenders 56 per cent., so that you may depend upon 56 per cent, of old
offenders coming back to prison again. I do not mean to say that they all
come back to the same prison. 1 want to call your Lordships' attention to
this especially, because I believe that the greatest benefit that this Committee
could do would be to recommend cumulative punishments for old offenders.
Take the example of a criminal who steals from a hedge ; he receives a
month, perhaps, and then if he comes again for stealing clothes from a hedge,
he receives six months perha|)S ; and then, if he comes again, possibly he is
sentenced to penal ser\ itude. I do not see why the same law should not be
carried out with regard to all offenders of every description. It is not a new
subject. The Legislature has sanctioned cumulative punishments in a variety
of cases, but they are restricted to repetitions of the like offence. I am
anxious that the cumulative punishments should be upon all offences. A man
commits an offence, say, of damaging trees growing and trees not growing, for
instance. If he damages trees growing, the punishment for the first offence
■would be six months, and the second would be three years ; but the man may
commit an offence on trees not growing, and it is treated exactly as a first
ofience. There are many Acts of Parliament giving cumulative punishments ;
but they are spread about in individual Acts, and I do not believe it is known
to one magistrate in 10 that there are such punishments as those.

3128. Chairman.'] You are surely aware that when a previous conviction is
proved against a prisoner, the judge always makes the sentence depend upon
that previous conviction, and augments his punishment in consequence ?

\ es ; 1 am anxious that previous convictions should be proved, not upon
felonies only, but on all offences.

3129. Earl oi Dudley.'] You are speaking now of summary jurisdictions, are
you not ?

■^'es ; there are the offences of vagrants, rogues, vagabonds, malicious tres-
(37. 9.) N N 4 ^ passers.

288 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

E. Shepherd, Esq. passers, disorderly apprentices, disordei-ly paupers, and a variety of other
A~~T" 8fi offences for which men come over and over again to prison 20 or 30 times. I
P" ^ ^' know one person who came for tearing his clothes in the workhouse seven
' times in one year. The man had been out of prison for the longest period

for seventeen days, and the shortest, five. I do not believe in any good
the repetitions of those punishments can do to these prisoners. I beheve
that the prison discipline would make very little alteration indeed with regard
to such prisoners ; but if you could induce the Legislature to make an Act of
Parliament sanctioning cumulative punishments upon all sorts of offences, and
summary convictions not alone upon the repetition of a like offence ; supposing
that a man is committed as a rogue and vagabond, and he afterwards is com-
mitted for wilful damage, the committal on the first offence, if proved against
him, the second time should entail a cumulative punishment; I believe that if
the punishments were beginning at a small amount and increasing three or
four fold, and ending with a sentence of two years, or a sentence of penal ser-
vitude as the case might be, your Lordships woLdd do the very best thing
towards thinning the prisons of this country of crime. I believe that that
would be the beginning of it, and I have no doubt in the world that it would
be an excellent thing. Taking it on the low figure that the men are not re-
foimed and are not deterred, at any rate they are kept out of the way and are
not inducing others to commit offences, as many of those old travelhng thieves
and clever men do. All men who are transported do not come for the first or
second offence for felony, but ior all sorts of offences. I have before me a
list of 200 men that were sentenced to penal servitude in Wakefield, and 94 of
these came for various trifling offences for the first time, so that in the case of
those men who h;id come frequently 40 or 50 times to prison, if, instead of always
giving the men 7 days and 10 days, you sentenced them, after three or four
convictions, to two years' imprisonment, I believe you virould do more good
than by any means that you have in your power by any altered system of prison
discipline.

3130. Duke of Ixkhmond.'} Would not that rather go to show that your dis-
ciplive in Wakefield prison is not quite so severe as it ought to be ?

The table which I have referred to will show that at any rate our discipline
is more effective in Wakefield than in neai'ly every other county. The seven
counties that are in a better position than Wakefield, are quite agricultural ;
Ctunberland, Cornwall, Huntingdon, Bedford, Suffolk, and Rutland; and then
comes the West Riding of Yorkshire. Surely the discipline must have done
some good.

3131. You were speaking of the number of times that a pauper was sent to
prison for tearing his clothes. If that man had been sentenced to three weeks,
and had been kept on the treadwheel all the time, would he not have been less
likely to tear his clothes ?

If I were satisfied that the treadwheel or any other punishment would deter
a man, by all means let him have the treadwheel ; but I am not satisfied that it
wovdd do any good.

3132. Earl of Romiiei/.] You alluded to the Vagrant Act; do you not know
that under that Act the principle of cumulative punishments is recognised ?

Yes.

3133. Have you never known persons convicted as rogues and vagabonds,
commitU'd twici' for the same offences and for disorderly conduct r

Very lew cases indeed. The first convicliou is ;is a vagrant, the second as a
vagabond, and the third as an incorrigible i-ogue and vagabond ; I have only
known one incorrigible rogue and vagabond committed in 10 years. They are
very rare undir the third category; what 1 should recommend would be, that a
short Act should be passed embodying all these offences, so that the magistrates
who have many other duties to pcrlbrm than simply as legislators, and who do
not all know exactly tlie law, nnglit see tlu; clause in one single sentence; ; that
all offences and convictions of any description will entail a cumulative
punislniicnt.

3 1 34. That would do no good, would it, unless the magistrates carried it
out ?

They do not cany out those Acts, because they are ignorant of them.

3135- I^ut

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 289

3135. But they must know the Vagrant Act? e, shepherd, Esq.

Yes, but there are but very many other Acts giving increased sentences which — —

few magistrates know. ^'^^ -^P"' 18C3.

3136- A person is charged with an offence under the Vagrant Act, and
though there is the power to inflict cumulative punishment, you sav that it is
never exercised ?

Very rarely.

3137. 'LorA Weu.sle7jdale.\ You may always increase the sentence for the
second offence where the punishment is discretionary ?

Yes.

3138. But in the case of a fixed punishment, you could not inflict it r

Just so, the discretionary punishments are what have led to this great reduc-
tion in the amount of the sentence. There is something to be said, perhaps, in
favour of discretionary punishments ; but 1 must say that they have led to a
considerable reduction.

3139. Duke oi Richmond.'] I understood you to give in a statement of the
different sentences that have been passed within the last seven years as com-
pared with the year 1835. Is not that the effect of a change in the law?

The shortness of the sentences is not the effect of the change in the law. I
dare say the effect of the change of the law with regard to penal servitude may
have something to do with it; but I excluded myself from that, because I
said previously convicted prisoners. The magistrates have had at all times the
power of sentencing previously convicted prisoners to penal servitude ; formerly
they could sentence any one who committed larceny to penal servitude.

3140. 'Eavloi Romneij.'] Do not you find a very great diversity in the sen-
tences of the judges ?

There is as great a diversity between one judge and another as there is
between one justice and another.

3141. Lord Wensleydale.] Generally speaking, do not you think that the
judges are much more lenient in modern times than they used to be r

Yes, considerably. I do not believe that public opinion would exactly bear
you out now in inflicting the severe sentences which were formerly inflicted ;
but it would be possible not to have quite so much limit given ; that a second
off"ence shall of necessity entail a heavier punishment ; not " may," but " shall,"
if that were possible.

3142. Duke of Richmond.'] Keeping out of view all the circumstances attend-
ing the case ?

No. I would give full power within certain bounds ; say, for instance, a
first offence sliall entail no more than one month to three months ; the second
shall be three months up to six months, or up to 12, or up to whatever the
sentence may be. The third shall be from six to 12 ; that is the sort of dis-
cretion that I would give. I would give discretionary power wide enough, I
think, to meet the case ; but still it would be compulsory within a limit.

3143. Chalnnctn.] Does not the facility which you have been recommending
to a great extent involve also a better identification of the prisoners ?

Yes, it does. 1 am not sure that what I have recommended would not
increase that class that is found increasing so much. I mean the travelling
thieves ; it is exceedingly ditiicult to make a law to meet all cases. If you were
to say, " 1 he known ones we will punish with severity," it might by possibility
drive them to wander about. 1 state that to your Lordships because I think it
rigin to do so. Those who go about are a dangerous and an increasing class.

3 1 44. Have you ever turned your attention to a better system of identifying
previously convicted prisoners than that which at present e'xists ?

I have tried the system of photography, and marks, and other things ; but I
am sorry to say I have not nmch faith in it.

3145. Will you be good enough to state to the Committee in what wav you
carried out the system of marks.

Every prisoner, when he comes into prison, is stripped, and all the marks

that he has upon him are recorded in a book, natural marks more than artificial

(37. 9.) O O marks,

290 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

fi. Shepherd, Esq. marks, because artificial marks can be eradicated, whereas natural marks would
— - take a very lung time to eradicate, indeed many of them cannot be removed,

,2ist April 1863. yf course. But, speaking of photography, I have found very few prisoners
recognised in the prison from photography, unless the name or some other
reference was given. If you wish to carry out the whole effect of the punish-
ment upon the travelling thieves, there is no mode but one that I know of,
and that is to mark the man the same as a deserter is marked. And I do
not know any reason at all why a prisoner who has been convicted should
not be marked.

3146. Would you see any objection to inflicting a mark upon every prisoner
convicted again after the first felony ?

Certainly not. I see no reason in the world why he should not be marked
on the second conviction, in the same way as a deserter is marked. Twenty-
six per cent, only come back to prison, I think, out of 20,000 persons, after
the first commital, so that that may be taken pretty nearly as the standard of
returns of first convictions. You give a man a fair chance in that case, but if
he comes a second time, then I do not think that you ought to deal mercifully
with him at all, but you should inflict the severest punishment, either by dis-
cipline, or by anything of that kind.

314; . Are you of opinion that such a process would be exceedingly dreaded
by thieves and criminals who become habituated to crime ?
Yes.

3148. How would you propose to inflict the mark ?

I do not know that you could do it much better, or more effectively, than
under the arm.

3i4(). Would that be by means of gunpowder ?

I think that or Indian ink produces the most lasting impression ; it could be
taken out, but it would leave a scar. You could obliterate the letter " D.,"
for instance, on a deserter, but it would leave a scar. Now, if the scar was
in such a place as scars are rarely to be found, in some soft part of the flesh,
it would be almost as good an identification as if the actual letter " D." were
remaining.

3150. In fact, from your own experience in these matters, you see no diffi-
culty, either practical or moral, in doing it.

No ; I have advocated it at all times.

3151. Do you doubt that benefit would result from it '•'

I am sure that it would be of the greatest possible benefit to the class of
persons that one is most anxious to punish. But I have explained to your
Lordships that which ! thought so important, namely, that the original crimi-
nals of the West Riding have not increased 45 in 30 years, when all the
others have doubled. That therefore shows the importance of some system
of identification of those travelling thieves.

3152. Do you think that there would be any advantage obtained from having
a more reguUir system of communication established with regard to pre-
viously convicted jirisoners between the governors of the different gaols r

Yes ; I will explain to your Lordships wljat we do : there is a prison at Leeds,
in our immediate neighbourhood, and three days before the sessions, five or
six officers from Wakefield go over to examine all the prisoners for trial at
Leeds, and vice versa; they come over from Leeds to examine the prisoners
at Wakefield, and in that case many persons are detected who are known as old
offenders. A month ago, two persons were sent to prison at Wakefield in one
day ; the chaplain of the prison at Wakefield was formerly the chaplain at
Portland ; he came to me and said, " There are two men that you do not
know, and that I know ; they had been previously transported wlien I was at
Portland ; I will give you the names in conlidence." A few days after, we sent
a man to the (Chatham prison, when he came to the Chatham prison, tlie
authorities at Chatham knew him as having been i)reviously at Chatham. A
few days after that, a prisoner was sent from London to Wakefield for confine-
ment, and when he came into the prison, we knew him as having been
previously convicted in Manchester; and as having undergone disciphne at
Wakefield. A few days after that, a man came into the West Killing part of

the

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 291

the prison, when he was inspected by the officers, he was known to have been E. Shepherd, Esq.
previously convicted, and sent from Leicestersliire. Tliose are live cases all -—

within a month ; they would have escaped detection, but for accidental "^^ P" ^*
circumstances ; and I have no doubt whatever that such cases are very
numerous indeed. If there could be such a system of registration as your
Lordship has referred to it would identify a man and show that he was knoAvn ;
but unless you had a mark to find (jut who the prisoner was, you would be
very little better off. If you say, " I know that a man has been in prison " (as
we may when we see a photograph) " but I do not remember his name, and I do
not remember any circumstances about him;" unless the law allowed you
to punish a prisoner with cumulative punishment because he had been in some
■other prison, I do not see what great benefit you would derive from such a
system.

3155. Are you of opinion that photography itself has been instrumental in
identifying them r _ .

Very few indeed ; considering the extent to which it is used now in prisons,
it has been instrumental in but few cases.

3154. Does not sending over the officers to Leeds on the different occasions
that you have described involve a certain amount of expense ?

Yes, it does ; with regard to Leeds, which is very near Wakefield, the
expense is very trifling in that respect ; but it would be a very considerable
expense if the system were universal. The expense is about 2^. 8.s. a year, or
something of that kind, to each prison.

315.5. It would be impossible, would it not, to apply that system to any-
thing except immediate localities ?
It would.

3156. Lord [Venslci/dale.'] Who pays that expense ?

The borough of Leeds pays it in the one case, and the West Riding in the
other. It is an acknowledged expense, and is ordered by the magistrates to be
defrayed.

3157. C}iairman.~\ Looking at the expense which would interfere with this
system being carried into effect in many parts of England, are you of opinion
that the reduced scale of allowances to witnesses, which has been issued lately
by the Home Office, has acted prejudicially, so far as the identification of
previous offenders is concerned ?

It did act unfavourably, but I think it is altered now.

3158. Did you yourself experience great injury from it?

No ; 1 did not myself experience it, because the magistrates in the .West
Riding always allowed a reasonable sum, and they paid it out of the county rates,
independently of the Home Office. It was disallowed by the Government, but
it was allowed there ; but I have repeatedly seen refusals of officers to come
there, not knowing that fact. Although they were not couched in such terms,
as saying, " I will not come, because you will not pay me," it came to that.

3159. Do you consider that the present revised scale of allowances is a
sufficient remuneration to the officers for going to a distance to identify a
prisoner ?

Yes, I do.

3160. Can you state wherein in tbat revised scale the distinction lies, which
is drawn between the allowance made to a police constable at the assizes, and a
police constable at the quarter sessions.

I believe it is because at the assizes the expenses are greater ; assize towns
are in many cases small towns, and the expenses of living are greater during
those times ; a greater number of persons congregate together at such seasons,
and the expense is greater ; the lodgings are a very heavy expense indeed,.

3161. Is everything in fact raised in price, so far as accommodation and food
es during the assizes ?

(37. 9.) 0 0 2 Yes ;

292 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

E. Shepherd, Efq. Yes ; SO far as regards the subject. I was mentioning about old oifenders ;
there is an illustration which I think is worthy of being brought before vour

•aist Aprii 1S63. Loi-dships. The adults have increased from 3,611 in 1856, to 5,332 last year ;
the juveniles were 324 in 1856, and they have been reduced to 214. In the
last three years, in the West Riding, there has been an increase of adults
something like 1,000 or 900 in each year, and the juveniles have been stationary.
I bring this before the Committee to show the benefit that has arisen from
having juveniles in continement. Boys are influenced more easily perhaps than
men by their bad associates ; but having the bad class away from them, I
believe has really kept down what might be an increase ; and I have no doubt
that the same re^ult would arise if you were to have those old ott'cnders locked
up. I have a suggestion to make to the Committee with regard to the treatr
ment of prisoners founded upon our own experience, and it is this : that every
prisoner comuiitted for a term of imprisonment not exceeding one month, shall
be kept in strict solitary confinement, and subjected to the following discipline
and diet. Then the diet would be for 10 days according to the 7th class,
which I have given, and for terms exceeding- 10 days, the 6th class. There
should be no exercise, unless specially ordered by the surgeon, who shall state
his reasons in each individual case. With regard to correspondence, no letters
or visits to be allowed ; instruction, no books, except the Bible and Prayer Book,
and no school instruction ; to attend Divine Service on the Sabbath, work at
the discretion of the justices. With regard to cell accommodation, every cell
so occupied by this class to be supplied with a seat, a wooden bedstead, or guard
bed, with no mattress ; sufficient clothing being allowed for warmth, and
exercise. I have made a remark, " this rule to be dispensed with with regard to
aged prisoners." The second part of the suggestion is, that every prisoner
committed for a longer period than one month shall be kept in solitary-
confinement for the first 14 days of his imprisonment; that he shall be placed
on the 5th or lowest class; he shall have 10 hours of labour exclusive of in-
struction, which shall be given in the evening, after Avorking hours : and one
hour of exercise per day. I would suggest that an ascending scale, not only of
diet, but of slight prison relaxations, should be drawn up in every prison by the
visiting justices ; so that a prisoner, by his conduct and industry, and endea-
vouring to improve or reform, might be encouraged, and thus have something
to hope for and to look forward to. I believe that that would be as strict a disci-
pline as it is possible for these men to bear ; and I think it would work satisfac-
torily if there were added to it those long sentences which I am anxious should
be introduced.

3162. Earl of Romieij.'] Your view in all this is to reform the man, is
it not ?

My principal aim is to reform the man.

3163. Lord Steward.'] Can reformation be eff'ected in the case of prisoners
sentenced to short imprisonments ?

I am sure it could not ; I have no hope, certainly, in such cases.

3164. Earl of Rovmeij.] Do you beheve that if the criminal law were carried
out with greater vigour, both with regard to sentences and also with regard .
to internal discipline in prisons, any reduction might be made in the class of
offenders ?

I am sure that it might ; I have not any hesitation in recommending it, and
stating it boldly as my opinion.

3165. The practice has been lately very much to reduce the severity of sen-
tences, has it not ?

Yes.

3166. During which time a very great increase has taken place in the class of
old offenders?

Yes ; I have stated, that not only in the West Riding, but throughout England

and Wales the class of old offenders is increasing.

3107. Your

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE.

293

3167 Your expectation is, that a very great reduction in the criminal popu- E. Shepherd, Esq.

lation might be made by carrying out the criminal law witU greater vigour - ^^^^ ^^^.^ ^g^^

Yes, that is my opinion.

The "Witness is directed to withdraw.

Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Thursday next,

Twelve o'clock.

(37. 0.) O O 3

[ 295 ]

Die Jovis, ^3° Ain-ilis 1 863.

LORDS PRESEN-T:

Duke of Richmond.
LoED Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of RoMNET.
Earl Cathcart.

Earl of DuciE.
Earl of Dudley.
Lord Wodehouse.
Lord "Wensletdale.
Lord Ltveden.

THE EARL OF CARNARVON in the Chair.

Evidence on
Prison Discipline.

SIR WALTER CROFTON, c.b., is called in, and examined as follows : «:> W. Crofton,

C.B.

3168. Cliairman.'] YOU have been for several years engaged in the superin- 23d ApriUSGa.
tendence of Irish Prisons, have you not ? —

Yes ; I was appointed chairman of the Board of Directors of Irish Convict
Prisons in 1854, and I retired from that office in June 18G2.

3169. Besides the position which you have held in Ireland, you have had
experience, have you not, in England of the county prisons, and of prison matters
generally ?

Yes, I have, as a magistrate, not only in ray own county of Wiltshire, but in
other gaols, which I have constantly visited, and minutely examined.

31 70. It was in your interest in prison matters, under those circumstances, that
originally led to your turning your attention to the subject, and ultimately to your
appointment in Ireland ?

It was.

3171. The whole question of Prison Discipline in its general outline has con-
sequently been a matter of interest and study to you ?

It has.

3172. Are you of opinion, that in the gaols and houses of correction in England
at present there are very large discrepancies both in the construction of the prisons
and in the discipline of the prisoners '?

I am decidedly of that 'opinion ; I consider that there is great want of uni-
formity, both in the labour and in the diet, and in many instances in the location
of the prisoners themselves.

3173. Is it not your opinion that want of uniformity is very prejudicial ?
Very much so, because I find that the sentence of hard labour in one county

means a distinctly different thing from a similar sentence in another county.

3174. Are you of opinion that there is laxity in point of discipline in many of
those prisons :

I am not prepared to say that there is any laxity ; I consider the want of
uniformity of procedure to be excessively detrimental : it arises, as it appears, to
me, from a very general want of proper appliances for carrying out hard labour,
and in many cases from an idea that separate imprisonment has superseded the
necessity of hard labour.

3175. Do you believe that in many prisons both the diet is in excess, and the
labour is in deficiency, of that which you would consider to be a satisfactory
standard ?

(37. 10.) 0 0 4 I ani

296 MINUTES OF EVIDEInCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Sir W. Crofton, I am not prepared to state that. I consider that the want of uniformitv in the
^•'^- diet is a great objection. I believe that the recommendation, — for it was a recom-

23d April 1863. mendation only from the Home Office, made many years since — with regard to
the dietary given in county prisons is erroneous in principle, because we find con-
stantly that prisoners are asking for longer sentences in order to evade a short
sentence, and the low dietary connected w-ith it. It therefore ajipears to me to
operate as a sort of premium to the commission of a greater offence. It would
appear to me to be a far better arrangement that every man who enters a prison
should, during the first period of his sentence, have the lowest dietary, and then
be promoted from one class of dietary to the other, according to time and other
circumstances ; I think that tliey should all commence with the lowest scale of
diet, which would at once take away the ground for a prisoner wishing to have
a longer sentence in order to escape the low dietaries.

3176. Is it not, in point of fact, the case that the dietary improves just in pro-
portion as the offence itself becomes grave ?

There is no question about it.

3177. And that whereas you punish a venial offence by the heaviest form of
diet that you can devise, you punish a very grave offence by a very much improved
dietary ?

Yes, certainly.

3178. Therefore your opinion would be that the dietary should be pro"-ressive,
and that all prisoners should commence with the lowest dietarj', whether they were
in prison for a short sentence or for a long one ?

That is my decided opinion.

3179. Are you of opinion that the tread- wheel is an implement which is
useful in the correction of prisoners ?

I am, decidedly. I know that there are many objections to the tread-wheel,
principally, perhaps, because persons consider that the labour of the tread-wheel is
unproductive labour. Now I cannot myself see why it should be unproductive.
I know that many people consider that the fact of having unproductive labour
operating on the mind of a prisoner is very detrimental ; but I cannot see why
the tread-wheel need be unproductive in its results. J am certain that if it were
carried out judiciously it would be a very great deterrent to criminals.

3180. Has not the tread- wheel this advantage over some other forms of punish-
ment, that it is possible by means of it to apply the amount and proportion of
punishment with greater accuracy ?

I have understood so. I cannot say that I am in a position to assert it posi-
tively. The tread-wheel itself no doubt o])erates very differently ; it would require
to bo regulated, or else there is a certain numljer of ste|)s that a man may be
required to take in a certain time in one case, and in another not so many ; but
•t appears to me as good a form of punishment as can be devised for the purpose.

3181. The same argument which you use with regard to the tread- wheel
would be applicable as regards the crank, would it not?

Yes, it would ; I prefer the tread-wheel myself to any other system of hard
labour, and I believe that it might be made really an instrument of great service ;
for instance, the plan that I should adopt with regard to it would be, that during
the first month of imprisonment I would place a prisoner for a certain number of
hours, to be decided upon, per day on the tread-wheel. The second month, if the
conduct of the prisoner, and his industry in other employments which I would
point out, were satisfactory, I should let the labour on the tread-wheel be reduced,
month by month, so that we should find that, although a man would be getting
hard lal)our during his sentence, it would rest Avith himself, through his industry
and g(ii)(l conduct, to reduce the amount of his hard labour on the tread-wheel.
When the time ior the tread-wheel in the day was over, I should institute other
employments, depending, of course, on the ])eriod of imprisonment. During the
first month, if the sentence was for one montli or under, prisoners would of course
be a considerable portion of their time on the tread-wheel, but the remainder of
the time I shonhl occupy them in jiicking oakum, or some other simple employ-
ment, as to wliich you could note whether they were industrious and well-behaved
in carrying it out.

3182. In

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 297

3182. In your point of view, the tread- wheel is essentially a penal engine of 5/^. w'Crofton
discipline ? c. b. ' ^

Yes, essentially ; at the same time, I think it conld be combined with other

industrial pursuits, under such arrangx-meuts as uoukl afford a stimulus to a man to 23d April iSCj'3.

Avork himself off this hard labour by degrees, and to earn something for himself, —

perhaps, when he leaves the prison.

3183. And your view would bo, that, having regard to the requirements of
prison discipline, and the ultimate reformation of the prisoner, the penal element,
■whether it be by the tread-wheel or by the crank, ought to form a constituent
part of that system ?

I am quite satisfied about that, and more now than ever, because nine years
since we established reformatory schools at a great expenditure of money and time,
and I think that when we do so much to jirevent crime, and to train the young
so that they shall not jjursue criminal avocations, we are bound, on the other
hand, to be more stringent in the punishment of those who still pursue a course of
crime, notwithstanding what we have done for them. I am quite satisfied that the
managers of reformatory schools would consider their hands strengthened by its
being known that pursuing a course of crime would lead to really stringent punish-
ment, and to other deterrent procedure externally, which I shall, I hope, point
out presently.

31 84. It has been given in evidence before this Committee by some of the
witnesses, that, in their opinion, the effect of the tread-wheel and the crank is to
create a sense of degradation in the mind of the prisoner ; is that your opinion? .

I have no doubt it may do so ; but, combined with other industrial pursuits,
I think this effect might be counteracted. I believe that the penal element is
so necessary, that the feeling of degradation ranks as of minor importance in my
mind.

3185. Do you believe that it creates an irritating feeling in the minds of tlie
prisoners ?

I have no doubt it might if it was kept on constantly without being combined
with anything else; but 1 am satisfied that if you showed a man the possibility of
his getting ofi" it through his own extra industry and good conduct, you get rid at
once of that feeling of irritation.

31 86. Lord Steward.] Do you think that the number of prisoners in M'hose
minds a feeling of irritation is caused by the mere fact of labour being unpro-
ductive, and who draw a distinction between productive and unproductive labour,
the two forms of labour being equally fatiguing and painful, is large ?

I thi)ik they do draw the distinction ; and my own impression is, that it would
be a large number, althouoh I have heard many experienced governors of gaols
say thiit they do not think it is. But I believe the whole of that feeling of
irritation would be got rid of through the institution of other industrial pursuits in
connexion with it.

3187. Lord Li/vedcn.] What experience have you of the tread-wheel; is it
generally adopted in Ireland ?

Jt is adopted partially in Ireland as it is in this country ; it is not adopted in
the convict prisons in Ireland ; but I have observed its operation in many prisons
in this country, and in Ireland also ; and I have seen many criminals and con-
victs who have been subjected to it, and I have heard their impressions of it.

3188. Have you seen enough of it to be able to form a decided opinion upon
its effects r

I have, certainly.

3189. Earl of liomiiei/.] Have you ever had charge of any particular prison, so
as to have an opportunity of watching the prisoners from day to day ?

I have not.

3190. Yours are merely casual visits?
Yes.

3191. Tlierefore, it is rather difficult for you to form an opinion as to its eff'ect
upon prisoners as to their sense of irritation or degradation ?

(37. 10.) P P It

298 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Sir W. Crofton, It is SO a? to the effect physically, of course ; but witli regard to its effect in

c B. producing irritability, I liave seen so many convicts and othei's who have been sub-

, . ~ „„ jected to it, that I think I can give an opinion with regard to it, I believe that

unproductive labour of tliat description does generate irritability ; but if it were

made productive and coupled with other industrial pursuits, as I have advised,

their minds would be divested of that fcelino- of irritation with regard to it.

3192. If men employed npou the tread-wheel know that in one case they are
grinding corn, and in another case they are merely turning against the air, do you
think that that knowledge would in the one case cause irritability, and in the other
case not ?

I beheve that it would.

3193. Do you judge in that way from what the men have told you ?

Yes ; the prisoners have told me themselves that they would rather know that
they were doing something, and governors of gaols have also told me the same
thing. Ikit that would not at all alter my opinion with regard to the proper use
of the tread-wheel, because I believe it could be used advantageously in combina-
tion with other things.

3194. Lo7-d Sttioard^ It might be made applicable to useful purposes, such as
grinding corn, or pumping, might it not ?

Yes, certainly, and is so in many gaols.

3195. Chairnia7i.'\ Are you familiar with the use of what is called the cellular
hard labour crank ?

No, I am not.

3196. Are you aware whether the prisoners themselves, as a general rule, prefer
industrial occupation to work on the tread-wheel r

I am quite sure they would infinitely prefer industrial occupation.

31 97. Would they prefer open air exercise to industrial occupation ?
Yes.

"198. Therefore, they would prefer industrial occupation to the tread- wheel,
and open air exercise to industrial occupation ?
That I am sure of.

3 1 99. By open air exercise you moan, do you not, exercise in some inclosed place

or yard ?

Yes, or some employment in that yard.

3200. Of what nature would you suppose that employment to be ?

I think they would rather havo any out-of-doors employment than be shut up
in their cells with industrial labour.

-^201. If industrial occupation be given in lieu of hard labour by the crank or
by the tread-wheel, is it in your opinion desirable that it should be assigned to each
prisoner by piece-work ?

T think it would be very desirable if it could be done ; but it would be replete
with difficulty. I have in my mind a very inferior tailor, who could, perhaps, just
stitch a little, and another a very good tailor, who with one-fourth of the labour
could perform the same task; I think it would be a very didicult thmg to
arrive exactly at each man's capability of performing his work by the piece in a
certain amount of time.

3202. Is not that rather an argument against industrial occupation as a

whole? . . ,11

I think not. But I have already expressed my opinion that the tread-wheel
hard labour should form a portion, and a very strong purtion, of the itunishment.
I think that it would be quite easy to know whether a man was performing as
much as he could of industrial work by some system of cheek, either by marks or
any other system, which would record whether a man was doing his best ; that is
Avhat we want to get at with regard to prisoners. One man may do more work than
another, but still not be actually so industrious. W'c have a record kept, with
marks, in the Irish convict prisons, which jjives us an idea of the amount of
industrial labour that a man is performing according to his capability.

3203. I suppose that in proportion as you complicate the nature of the indus-

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE- 299

trial occupation, so you increase the difficulty in assigning anything like piece- Sir W^ Crofton,
■work to the prisoner? '

I think so. 23d April 1863.

3204. Therefore, if you have recourse to industrial occupation, it is desirable to '
have it of the simplest kind ?

That \\ould be my imjn-ession.

3205. Probably that simple form of industrial occupation -would be mat-making,
or something of that nature ?

If your Lordship will alloAV me, I will just explain what industrial occupation
I would assign. For sentences above one month, after the prisoners had been on
the tread-wheel for a portion of the day, and performed their hard labour, I should
place all tradesmen at the work that they can perform ; if a man were a shoemaker,
he siiould be put to shoemaking, and a tailor shouhl be put to tailoring, and so on.
But as tlie majority of prisoners would not be tradesmen, I should, after the one
month, place tliem at an employment, such as boot-closing, which is a very simple
process, and which could be learned in about 10 days or a fortnight ; sack-making,
and works of that kind, which men in 10 days can perform, perhaps roughly, but
well, and their industry at which be very easily noted. Those are the sort
of works I should put them on. Mat-making takes a little more time, per-
haps ; but there would be no objection to that, as it does not require much skill.
Those under a mouth, I should only put to oakum-picking. They would
have very little time beyond the period at the tread-wheel in which to work at
all, and during that time I should give them the simplest work I could, which
would be oakum-picking. After one month I should allow a man to work him-
self off the tread-wheel by his industry at other avocations, which I think could
be very satisfactorily marked, as in the Irish convict prisons, without piece-
work.

3 206. Lord JVodehouse.'] What necessity would there be for giving them
employment beyond the tread-wheel in oakum-picking ?

Because I think you would find that the medical officer would not allow them
to be the whole period of tlie month on the tread-wheel.

3207. How long would you allow them to be on the tread-wheel r

1 can scarcely answer that question, as the opinion of medical officers is so dif-
ferent in different gaols. I would keep them on the tread-Avheel as long as thev
could work at it, and if there was any surplus time, I would employ them at
oakum-picking.

3208. Earl of Romney.'] Do you mean that if a man was in prison for 7 or 10
days you would give him tread-Avheel labour r

I would give him as much tread-wheel labour as he was thought tit to undergo.
In some gaols there are only eight hours and less devoted to tread-wheel labour ; the
surj)lus time for labour I should devote to oakum-picking in cases under one
month.

3209. C/iainna?i.} You stated, did you not, that it is difficult to apply anything
like a system of task work in industrial occupation ?

My impression is that it would be very difficult. I have never tried it, but I
should consider it would be so.

3210. Lord Sttward.'} Wliat is your opinion of shot-drill as' a punishment ?
I do not like it.

3211. What is your objection to it ?

1 thiid< it is one that perhaps generates more irritability than anything else with
the prisoner, because you cannot make it productive in any possible form.

32 1 2. Does that answer consist with the experience of the governors of military
and naval prisons?

I should think not ; but there would be a variety of opinions with regard to it
amongst them ; shot-drill cannot be made productive labour in any way, whereas
the tread-wheel can.

3213. Chairvian.'] I conclude that, under all circumstances, it is difficult to
obtain from a man in confinement the same amount of work which you would get
from a free labourer ?

(37. 10.) p p 2 The

300 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Sh- W. Cr,fton, ^ery difficult, in my opinion.

^•_°; 3214. If tliere be no task-work or no piece-work assignee! , is it not very difficult

23a April 1SG3. to have anything like a check upon the amount of work which is done ?

''' I think it would be found easy for the officers of the prison, the governor, and

the trades-warders, to note whether each man is doing his best ; the prisoner
would have an inducement through working himself so many hours off the tread-
wheel each month in consequence of the industry evinced at other avocations,
which could be carefully noted.

3215. What would be the inducement Mhich you would hold out to him ;
would it be simple relief from the more penal form of labour, or direct advantage
in the shape of diet and otlier advantages?

A relief from the more penal form of labour, and other advantages, such as a
gratuity on his liberation. By statute it is possible, at the jjresent time, that a
man should have a small gratuity on his liberation ; I should recommend that this
man should, by his extra industry, earn whatever gratuity he should receive, and
that if he did not perform that extra industry, which I think could be measured
satisfactorily, he should not have his gratuity, so that he would feel that it was
tlu-ough his own exertions he was repla;"ing himself in the community in a manner
to further any good intentions he may have formed.

3216. That would have tlie additional advantage, would it not, of effi.^cting
indirectly a repayment to the county ?

Clearly.

3217. In your opinion, is it necessary to make the inducement very large in
order to secure the good conduct or the increased exertions of a prisoner ?

No, it is not.

32 1 8. You consider that a small inducement, if it led to some improvement in
his state, is sufficient ?

It would be sufficient for all purposes to generate the industry that you require.

32 I g. When a prisoner is sentenced in court to hard labour, is it your opinion
that that hard labour is intended to include labour at the tread-wheel or at the
crank, or at industrial occupation ; or would it be thought to imjjly simple con-
finement within the walls of the gaol ?

I should understand most distinctly that the meaning of hard labour must be
what we all understand by hard labour, labour either on the tread-wheel or the
crank ; I cannot inyself consider that a man's making a waistcoat or a pair of
trousers in his cell is hard labour.

3220. jLo}-d Steioard.'] It should be something requiring bodily exertion ?
Yes.

3221. Chairman.'] We have had evidence with regard to one system of con-
finement in which self-instruction, as it is termed, is made the basis of prison
discipline, and the prisoner is confined in a cell, and whatever work lie does,
though of the mildest form, is given him rather as a reward and relaxation
than as a punishment ; would that be consistent witli your theory of j)rison
punishment, or with your idea of what is intended by the Act of Parliament, and
by the reports which have been issued on the subject?

I think it could be conibined with what I have just recommended.

3222. Would you approve of it taken exclusively?

No, not exclusively ; I do not think it would be sufficient.

3223. Would a system of industrial occupation, such as is in use at Wakefield,
be consistent with your theory ?

I am not strictly conversant with the system at Wakefield ; my impression is, that
if a man is sentenced to hard labour, that hard labour should be carried out; I
think that a great deal that I have read as being done at Wakefield, which is very
vahudjie, might usefully be combined with it.

3224. With regard to your ])revious answer, will you state to the Committee
how you would propose to graduate your marks with reference to the offenders
who were in county prisons for three, or four, or six mouths ?

I have

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 301

I 'have already explained how I should treat a man who was under a mouth's Sir W. Crofton,
sentence; I should during the second month have a reduced period of work on c.b.

the tread -wheel, and the third mouth a further reduction ; but I would not allow — —

a man to obtain this advantage, without he satisfied those who were placed over P*^' ^'

him that he had been sufficiently industrious at the other work which had been
allotted to him ; I should jirefer that that industry should be noted by some
system of marks. That may be a prejudice on my part, because I have been
accustomed to marks in the Irish convict jirisons, although I am far from assuming
that it is the best system of marks ; there are several systems in use now, and some
«ystem of marks, I believe, would be a very intelligible record to prisoners of the
progress they were making. I think a system might be devised, so as to lead the
man to feel that by his own industry his position was improved, in diminishing
his number of hours of labour on the fread-wheel, and, as I stated before, in
iicquiring a small gratuity month by month. I think that this course would hold
out an inducement to his good conduct, and would take away the irritability induced
by the penal discipline, which I think is necessary to be inflicted on him ; and have
the very good effect of making the man feel that he was improving his position
through his OMU industry. I think it is far better than giving him any gratuity,
irrespective of industry, at the end of his term, to let hioi feel that he was gaining
it by his own exertions, and that if he did not gain it, he should not receive it.

3225. Would you make the increase of diet concurrent with the rise of the
men into the higher classes ?

I think that the present scale of dietary would be ample ; but I cannot well

give an opinion about the increase of the dietary, because there is a difference

"in different prisons ; in some cases it appears to be very ample indeed. In many

prisons the inmates are so well fed, that I should certainly not feel justified in

saying that I would improve the dietary.

3226. In the event of misconduct on the part of a prisoner who had gained
marks, and consequently been promoted, would you put him back to the lowest
•class, and make him work his way up through ihe successive stages, with all the
disadvantages attending them r

Yes, certainly ; and unless he acquired the proper number of marks, I would not
promote him from the one stage to the other ; he would have to wait in the lower
-stage until he had acquired the number of marks which would entitle him to be
removed.

3227. Lord Wodehouse.l Would not the system of marks enable the visiting
justices of the prison to see what the progress was ?

Yes ; I found, as director of convict prisons in Ireland, that it was of the greatest
possible use ; I could tell in each case at a glance whether the individual was idle,
and where he had failed. The establishment of the system of marks was not alone
due to me, and therefore I can speak the more freely upon it. I certainly have
the highest opinion of it. With regard to the prisoners themselves, they feel the
advantage of it, as well as those who have to deal with them, who would be the
visiting justices in the case of county prisons.

3228. There is a large class in the county prisons who are unfit, from medical
reasons, to work on the tread- wheel ; how would yon deal with that class ?

Unfortunately, there is scarcely an alternative but to place them at industrial
avocations.

3229. Would you employ them at once at industrial avocations (understanding
by that term trade occupations), or would you subject them to some period of
oakum picking ?

1 should do the same with them in that respect as with the others ; I think,
that being left in their cells for a month, with oakum picking, would have a more
deterring effect than if the trades' warder were coming in every moment attempting
to teach them a trade.

3230. Lord StewardJ] Some of them would be able to break stones?
Yes, some few.

3231. Lord Jf'odehouse.] You would put them to something analogous to the
tread-wheel, as far as circumstances permitted?

Yes.

(37. 10.) P P 3 3-232. jLo7-d

302 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Sir W. Crofton, 3232. Loi'd Steward.'] As near an approach to hard labour as possible ?

c.B. Yes ; I think that a man's being left to himself at oakum picking for a time has

a verv deterring effect ; I have experienced that myself in convict prisons.

23J April 1863. ■^

3233. Earl of Rom)iey.'\ Did you ever hear that putting men on a low scale of

diet v.'hen they first go into prison, and raising it afterwards, has been found to
act injuriously on their constitutions ?

I never found it to be the case ; I never heard of it happening ; I suppose there
may be some exceptional cases, but I cannot understand why it should be so.

3234. T)uke o? Rich?no}id.^ I understand you to say that you would think it
better to employ prisoners who were unable to work on the tread-wheel at breaking
stones ; miglit it not be very difficult in many county prisons to procure the raw
material ?

I am afraid it would be in many cases, and that is why I think, generally speak-
ing, they would have to resort to industrial avocations. I have known stone-
breaking in many places very profitable, at Belfast, for instance : there are many
local circumstances which might make it very desirable to have stone-breaking.

3235. In addition to the difficulty of ])rocuring stones, it might be in some
county prisons very expensive, even if the stone could be obtained ?

Quite so, I think you would generally have to find other avocations in those
cases.

3236. Earl Cat/tcart.] Sawing marble and stone is a punishment which is
adopted in some prisons ; have you had any experience of that ?

No, I have not ; oakum-picking, if they have it in a certain form of rope, can
be made very irksome and very troublesome for them to do ; if they have to pick a
certain weight, and to keep it up every day, it is more formidable work than it
appears.

3237. Chairvia7i.'\ The Committee have had evidence that there are still many
prisons in England in which the separate system has not been carried out, owing
to the imperfect construction of the old prisons, and the expense which would be
incurred in dividing them into separate cells ; has that same difficulty been felt at
all in the Irish prisons r

It has been felt in the Irish convict prisons, and it has occurred to me very
frequently whether some modification might not be made. There are many per-
sons wlio, I think very naturally, are not inclined to incur the great expenditure
that is involved in separate prisons : they adopt a plan in the Irish convict prisons
from economy, which I think could be very satisfactorily adopted in county
prisons, where they do not wish to incur the expense of more separate cells, or
where they have no means without a fresh building of having them ; I have brought
with me a rough ])lan, showing how to divide large rooms into cells, which is
very cheap, and answers the purpose, more especially if used for those prisoners
who are long periods in the county prisons, so that after they have been in the
ordinary cells for a certain time, they could be removed to the sort of cells that
I am now going to show your Lordships ; they are used on the Continent in some
of the prisons, and are very economical [The \Vit?ieis hands a plan to his Lordship,
aiul describes the same]. The cells are made of wood and wire ; the wire in front
and at the top ; the partitions to be either of wood or of corrugated iron, and to be
made removable.

3238. Do you propose under this scheme that there should be a range of cells
on each side of a common passage ?

Yes, on each side of a large room.

3239. Would prisoners in adjoining cells be able to see each other?

In the opposite cells they would be able to see each other, but an officer would
be in the passage walking up and down between the two rows of cells.

3240. Would not it be objectionable if from the opposite side of the passage
they could see each other .'

No, I think not; I should recommend that those who are placed in these cells
should bo prisoners who have been already kejit in strict separation ; I merely
recomnu'ud this ])lan as being far better than an associated room for them.

3241. It would be quite possible, would it not, that although prisoners in

adjoining

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 303

adjoinino- cells could not see each otlier, they could hear each other, and commu- Sir W. Crofton,
nicato wilh each other? c.b.

They could communicate, no doubt, but I do not contemplate placing prisoners , ~
in these sort of cells when they first come into prison ; but in cases where there are
a limited number of separate cells, and the rest of the prison associated ruonis :
instead of having associated rooms, I would fit up those rooms as I have described
for the class of prisoners who have gone through the other cells, and I believe
that very little injury would arise from that arrangement.

3242. Lord Steuard.'] You recommend that only as preferable to the pl;m of
associated rooms : ,

Yes, as preferable to the plan of associated rooms, not as a substitute for the
other cells in cases \yhere the expense attending tliem would be incurred.

3243. Clufirman.] What would be the cost per cell r

£'.3. 15*. for the material; as to the labour, the cells were erected by two or
three juvenile carpenters in the prison.

3244. Earl of Eovmei/.'] You do not recommend that, do you, as a substitute
for the separate system ?

In cases where they did not wish to incur the expenditure of erecting more
separate cells, I think with a diiferent classification of the prisoners, these cells
would answer the purpose, instead of leaving the remainder of the prisoners, who
were not in separate cells, cmplo3'ed in associated rooms ; if they bad arranged to
erect separate cells on the old system, I should prefer it to tliis jilan, but I merely
recommend it with a view to reduce the cost.

3245. Lord If'odehouse.'] You woukl generally prefer in every case that the
system of separate cells should be established ?

I should.

324G. C/iiiiinuni.'] Have you ever turned your attention to any better system
for the identification of prisoners after previous conviction ?

Yes, 1 have dune so. I believe that at the present time, we cannot have a
system of penal discipline sufficiently stringent of itself to deter from crime.
I do not think, that anything we could do in prison, more especially now-a-days,
would be sufiicient of itself to deter a criminal, but that we must look to some
external procedure in conjunction with a stringent system of treatment to obtain
such a result. I believe that at the present time the Mant of records and know-
ledge cf the antecedents of prisoners who come to the county and borougli prisons
causes the large number of old offenders and old convicts, who are now under
detention in those prisons, to the detriment of the discipline of the establishment,
to the cost of the county rate, and, Morse than all, to the encouragement of
crime, because in every gaol there are at the same time novices in crime. ^Ve
find old convicts, who have probal)ly been under sentence of penal servitude
for a long period, who have been living for many years in crime, sentenced to a
month or six weeks' imprisonment, side by side with one who is just com-
mencing a criminal career ; and the effect upon the mind of the person who
has just commenced a career of crime, of knowing that such immunity exist
for an habitual criminal, must be fatal to what we want, which is the reduc-
tion of crime throughout the country. I should therefore wish to see some
arrangements and ap|)Iiances instituted which would serve, as far as possible,
to check such a state of things. I believe that if the ciiminal classes knew,
and those who are commencing crime knew, and those who are in reformatory
schools knew, that the end of a criminal career must infallably be a long sen-
tence of penal servitude, terminating with a civil disability, in the shape of super-
vision after liberation, because the man would then have proved himself to
belong to the criminal classes, the effect of that knowledge operating upon the
minds of those persons, would do more to reduce crime than any stringent pro-
ceeding that we could adopt inside our prisons. And one arrangement for
that purpose (it may appear a trifling one, but it is a very efficient one, I
can say, after many years' experience) is the institution of photogiaphy. I
believe that if every man were photographed when he came to prison the
first time, and if on the second conviction tliat photograph were sent to the head
of the police, it would have a very deterrent effect on the minds of prisoners.
In Ireland for many years we have been carrying out this plan, and I have

(37. 10.) " p p 4 brought

304 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Sir W. Crofton, brought a sample with ine. We have a photograph taken of every man who

c. D. comes into the prison, and by a contract which we have entered into, we have

, . rr g„ . three of tliem for 1 s., and after the third for 4 d. each ; we can have as many as

\ \ ' we please to send round. This {prodiicbnj a pJwtograph) is the result of thai

expense. I can assure the Committee tliat tlie effect of the knowledge of this
procedure on the minds of prisoners can scarcely be exaggerated. ]Many people will
say that a man may make faces, and disguise himself while he is being photographed ;
that is quite true ; I found for the first fortnight that there was little else but
contortions on the part of the prisoners to evade this practice ; but after that
time there Averc no faces made, and they all subniilted to it. I am quite satisfied it
has a very great effect upon them, because the police then know them all, and
can trace them ; this practice, coupled with other procedure, will, I am satisfied,
have a very great effect in reducing crime, because it will lead at once to a man
being suspected and identified. AVe have an arrangement in Ireland in all the
county prisons which works extremely Avell ; whenever they have any oft'ender
whom they either suspect or know to be a convict, they send to the Directors'
office the particulars of the person of the man who is sent for trial in this form,
which I will hand to the Committee, which form is sent to every county gaol in
Ireland :

The Witness delivered in the following document: —

(Form 47.)

Gaol.

Particulars, Description, &c., of a Prisoner suspected or known to have been a

Discharged Convict.

Partiailars nnder which now in Custody. Description.

Name, A. B. Han-, brown.

Crime, picking pockets. Eyes, ditto.

Date of trial, 25 February 1862. Eyebrows, large.

Sentence, if passed, 10 years' P. S. Nose, medium.

Mouth, large.
Particulars of former Convictions as far as Complexion, rather sallow.
is hnown or, can he ascei-tained. Visage, round.

Make, stout.
Name, A. B. Height, 5 feet 5i inches.

County where tried, , Marks on person" D left breast; minus fore-

Date of conviction, 15 January 1852. fino-er left hand.

Crime, stealing from person. _ Present 'age, 28 years.

Sentence, seven years' transportation. Trade or callino' tailor.

When discharged from convict prison, Prison trade, ditto.

April 1856. Born at

Prison from which discharged, . Resided before committal at

Eriends reside at

Whether identified -, By letter from gaol,
as having been ( » ,
a convict, and by (
whom. J

Tu rnkey.

Observations.

Supposecl to have enlisted after discharge from prison.

Usual letter on form J, sent herewith.

This prisoner will be tried most likely on Tuesday next; an early reply is requested.

(signed) Governor,

23 February 1862.

Tried on 25/2/62 and sentenced on 26/2/62
to 10 years' P. 8.,

(signed) Governor.

When the man is identified, and sent to trial, and found guilty, a letter of this
description is sent in every case from the Board of Directors to the governor of the
gaol to be laid on the desk of the judicial officer.

The

SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE, 305

" The enclosed particulars of ( ) have been compared Sir W- Crofton,

with the books of this office, and are correct. In the event of b being Ibund c.i;.

guilty of the present charn-e, the Directors of Convict Prisons re([uest that the notice of the — —

Judge maybe particularly called to the circumstance of b being an ' liabitual 23d April 1 863,

offender,' with the view of b receiving a sentence proportionate to b per-

severance in pursuing a course of crime. Please to notify the result of the trial to this
office, and return the enclosure at the same time."

The case before your Lordships illustrates my view. A man for picking pockets
would probably, under ordinary circumstances, have had a very short period of im-
prisonmont in the Coimty Prison, but his antecedents being thoroughly known and
brought to light was the cause of his receiving 10 years' penal servitude.

3247. I understand that this system of photograjjhing is applied In Ireland only
to the case of penal servitude men ?

In some county gaols in Ireland, they have adopted it in other cases ; but I have
been referring in these cases to penal servitude men. I would carry it further, as I
have before stated, and use it for men under short sentences, and in conjunction
with the police when a man conies a second time back to prison.

3.24S. There could be no possible difficulty In applying it to persons in confine-
ment in county prisons r

None whatever ; it would be the greatest possible advantage. I could mention
twoother cases illustrating the same thing ; the extent to which it has enabled
Irisli county gaols to be cleared of old offenders who liave been convicts has been
very great.

3249. I understand, from the details whicli you have given the Committee, that
this communication enclosing the photograph of the convict is sent to the Directors'
office in Dublin ?

Yes.

3250. Would there be any difficulty in extending that system, and in having a
thorough communication bet\\een county prison and county prison ?

There would be no objection to it whatever ; it would be quite as easy as from
the Directors' Office.

32.51. It would simply involve a few more photographs and a few more
forms ?
That is all.

3252. Would it not in that point of view be very beneficial?

It would be exceedingly beneficial ; the ett'ect upon the criminal classes can
scarcely be exaggerated. I think that, while I am speaking on this subject,
I must make some observations with regard to the police. I know that there may
be many governors of county gaols in this country (because they have said so to
me) who are under the impression that the police would be rather hard upon some of
these criminals : that opinion was also placed before me in Ireland ; but after many
years' experience, I am quite positive in stating that I do not believe it would liaA'e
that effect at all. Now that we have a large jiolice- force which costs us about a
million and a half per annum, and with a limited transportation, I think it Is incum-
bent upon us to use them for this purpose. I believe that the i)olice at the present
time would dog a ci iminal about, in pursuance of their duty ; but if they were
co-operating with the governors of the gaols, and acting under information,
that system of dogging would altogether pass off. I found that tliere was
a system of dogging on the part of the police in Ireland before they were
co-operating with the jirison authorities ; but I have only had two or three
complaints of there being any dogging now. In fact, they have so much in-
formation now In tlieir hands, that it is unnecessary that they should dog
the criminal, and there is therefore far less espionage now than there was before ;
and so it would be in England. We make our police, in many counties, assistant
relieving officers for paupers ; and surely, if we entrust pauper cases to them, we
cannot hesitate about entrusting criminals to tlum.

32.53- Duke of Richmond.^ Is that done in England ?

Yes; in Wiltshire they are consulted with regard to paupers and vagrants, who
come to the Board and receive relief, and they act as assistant relieving officers.
That is not done in one county only ; but I know it of ray own knowledge to be
done In Wiltshire, because I am a magistrate there.

(37. 10.) Q Q 3254. Lord

306 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

JSir W. Crofton, 3254. Lord Wodcliouse.'] Do the police receive payment for that ?
C.15, Yes.

tyd Apii! 1863. 3255. Is that pay charged to the police account?
Yes, and has been so for years ; and a very valuable proceeding it is. My ex-
perience of the police makes me believe that they have been inclined to assist well
infeniioned criminals whenever they could assist them: of course when they know
that a man is pursuing a course of crime, it is their business to follow him and
look after him ; the projtosed arrangement would afford them every opportunity
and facility for detecting him.

3256. Chuinncni.'] I understaiid that your view would be, that on the first con-
viction the punishment should be short and sharp and as decisive as possible, and
that as large an amount as possible of ])cnal labour by means of the treadwheel
should enter into it ; but that on subsequent convictions the sentence should be
considerably lengthened, and that where crime seems to become habitual and
professional, there should be what you term civil disability and supervision by the
police r

That is my very decided opinion.

3257. Duke of Zi'vc/;woHf/.] You stated, in answer to a question just now, that
there would be no difficulty in exchanging those photographs between the different
county gaols : would you mean that to apply to the whole of England, Take one
gaol, for instance, in any particular county : would you mean that that gaol should
exchange ])hotographs of all its prisoners v, ith every other gaol in England ?

No ; I would propose an exchange of photographs between prisons where there
are large congregations of the criminal classes, such as Liverpool, fcc, where there
would be a great number of peo^de in confinement.

3258. For instance, in Thetworth Gaol : what would you do there?

I should send a piiotograi)h to one or two of the surrounding gaols perhaps,
and to tlie head of the police. I should not take any further steits, but would
have the jdiotographs ready in case of any reference being made ; the very fact
of establishing a corrcs])ondence between the different gaols would of itself
give rise to photographs being sent very frequently.

32.';o- C/ifiiniia>i.~\ You would probably fix upon one or two of the ]irincipal
gaols in different parts of England, which vonid serve as depots where those
photogra[)hs could be ke])t, and where they co\ild be easily referred to ?

"i'es, and where the criminal classes would be likely to congregate.

3260. Are you aware that very often there is the strongest suspicion that a
prisoner has been previously convicted, but, from want of the means to identify
liim, it is impossible to prove itr

Yes ; and I think that that is fatal to the reduction of crime throughout the
country, because it enal)lcs a man to esca]ic with a very short sentence : that is an
evil annnigst others which pressingiy recjuires to be amended.

3261. Have you ever considered, with regard to identifying prisoners, the expe-
diencv of affixing a mark after the first conviction ?

"i'c's ; but I should rather try the systena I have proposed first, and see whether
we could not make a sensible reduction in crime : because any mark, to be of use,
would cling to a man for iife, and would interfere with his prospects after-
wards; I should be sorry to try it until we had exhausted every other means.

3262. \^'ould yon object to making an experiment of it, even after the first
conviction for felony ?

I should not like to make an experiment of it until I had tried my plan, and
then, if that failed, I sliould not object ; but I do not think it would fail.

3263. What is your opinion with regard to corporal punishment for ofTences
against j)rison disfij)line ?

I should wish to retain the power of corporal punishment, though I have not
used it in the Irish convict prisons for the last three-and-a-half years ; but the
retention of the jjower I am sure is valuable. I do not, however, believe that it is
as deterring as people generally su[)pose.

3264. Are

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 307

3264. Are there not some classes of offenders witli wlinm no other punishment Sir W. Crqfto7i,
has any force or terror except that of corporal ])unishment f c.b.

I could not say so, because I liave known many inisouers upon whom corporal asd April iSS'^

punishment ha'; had no effect whatever ; I have subdued them by other means, '.

such as by working them in chains, and reducing their food. In the convict prisons
in Ireland we have wliat is called an idle class, for men who do not do their work
properly, and get very little food in consequence ; others, who are dangerous men,
who would be perhaps deemed subjects for corporal punishment, but with regard to
whom it has been found tl'.at corporal punishment has not answered ; we w^ork them
in chains, and find that to be effective. At the same time, as 1 said before,
there may be cases in which corporal punishment might succeed, and I should be
very sorry to see it abolished,

326^. Do you believe that, under the present system, the inequality of sentences
and diffei-ence of treatment in different gaols is a matter which is calculated upon
by the prisoners ?

I tliink it is, and it enters into their calculation so much as to influence them
in deciding what district would present the best field for robbing ; I am satisfied
that an old criminal can tell the dietary of county and convict prisons, and any-
thing else relating to them; I think it is a great element of consideration with
them.

3266. Some prisons are feared, and others, on the contrary, are considered very
indulgent in their system?

There is no question about it.

■V2G7. Do you believe that offences are ever committed with the view of beino-
committed to prison .'-

No, I have no general belief in that; I have often heard prisoners say so when
they were brought up for trial, but I have no belief in their statement.

3268. Do you not believe that workhouse offences are sometimes committed in
order to gain admittance to gaols r

They state so out of bravado before the judge, hut I do not believe in it; pri-
soners have repeateilly told me that they have made those statements more out of
bravado than anything else. By adopting what 1 have been suggesting, you
would make an essential difference between the pauper and the criminal,
because you M'ould subject the confirmed criminal to a civil disabilitv; there
would always be a difficulty in keeping the diet of a prisoner under that of a
pauper, because the ])auper dietary is very low ; but if we accompanied our prison
treatment with civil disabilities and long sentences, we should cutaway the ground
of favourable comparison between the state of the criminal and the pauper.

32(19. Chairman.'] Do you believe that there is such an amount of demoraliza-
tion in workhouses as tends to increase crime in the country, and augments the
numlter of persons who are committed to prison ?

I am sorry to say that 1 believe, in many cases, there is.

3270. Are you speaking of England or of Ireland, or of both f
I am speaking of both of them,

3271. You believe that the associated system in workhouses does directly con-
tribute to fill the prisons?

I think so, indeed ; but, with regard to the workhouses, both in England and
in Ireland, there is very much to be said for those who have the management of
them, because they have criminals there as well as paupers. When a criminal
goes to the workhouse, they cannot refuse to receive him, and therefore he con-
taminates others, and creates a great deal of mischief; I have known many such
cases in Ireland ; I have seen convicts in workhouses in associated employment
with the paupers, and of coarse that does a great deal of mischief; but we cannot
entirely blame the workhouse authorities, because in many cases they have no
proper means of classification.

3272. Can you suggest any remedy for that beyond classification ?
Not beyond classification.

3273. Do you think that a classification might be adopted sufficiently simple
and easy for that purpose r

I have no doubt of it.

(37. 10.) Q Q 2 . 3274/That

308 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

H/i- W. Crofton, .3274. That would be in your opinion very desirable r
^■^- Most desirable.

23d April 1863. 3275. And as regards the prisons themselves, you Avould wish to see o-j-eater
uniformity in diet, and in the labour, and in the general treatment pursued in the
prisons r

Yes, certainly.

3276. Is there any other point which you would wish to explain or suQoost to
the Committee r

There is one improvement which I should ho]je to find effected at an early day,
namely, tliat criminals sentenced to above 12 months" imprisonment, should not
be kept in the county prisons at all, but should be removed to the convict prisons ;
that after a 12 months' sentence, the next should be a very long sentence of
penal servitude, to be carried out in the convict establishments.

3277. Supposing that the sentences, as regards county jirisons, were reduced to
one year, would you propose that the prisoner, after leaving a county prison, and
being admitted to a Government convict prison, should enter upon a course of
association, or that the strict separation of the county prisons should be continued
in the Government prisons ?

That the strict separation should be continued with them in the Government
prisons.

3278. For how long?

The ordinary period is nine months.

3279. Therefore, I understand, from your answer, that a prisoner who is com-
mitted for two years, would have first of all, one year of separate confinement in
the county prison, and then nine months of separate confinement in the Govern-
ment pri.-on ?

I am afraid I liave not made myself very clear; I mean that there sluuild be no
intermediate sentence between one years imprisonment in the county prison and
a long sentence of penal servitude in the convict prison ; that the maximum
sentence to the county prison should be 12 months, and the next sentence either
six years or seven years' penal servitude ; jiractically, there are very few sentences
of two and three years imjirisonment now.

328c. Lord Wodchousc.'] You propose to abolish all sentences between a year
and penal servitude ?
Yes.

3281. What would be the lowest term of penal servitude to which you M'ould
sentence a prisoner ?

My own desire would be seven years' penal servitude ; but I must explain in
• mentioning tjiat time, that seven years' jieiial servitude is now the substitute for
the old sentence of seven years' transportation. Formerly we had two years' and
three years' imjirisonment as we have now, and then there was a jump to seven
years' transportation. Seven years' penal servitude is now intended to take the
place of seven years' transportation ; and as we all know that a great ])ortion of
this period is remitted, and that in cases of good conduct it is only five years' and
three months' imprisonment, I would have nothing intermediate between the seven
years' penal servitude and the one year's imprisonment in the county gaol.

3282. Earl of Roninaj.'] Practically, since the alteration of the law which has in-
stituted the system of penal servitude, has not the ])ractice rather been that three
or four years' ]ienal servitude has taken the place of Avhat used to be seven years'
transport;ition r

Unfortunatcly that has been the case, and that is why I wish to abolish those
sentences, and to revert to the old practice of seven years.

3282. Duke oi liidimond.'] Have yon ever considered what effect the daily chapel
has upon the prisoner, whether it lias that eflect upon him which one would desire
it to have, or whether from its being more or less of a routine nature, they disre-
gard it as a ])art of religious duty ?

My impression is that it attains very much of a routine chai'actcr by having it
every day.

3283. Would

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 309

3283. Would you think it advisable, then, to have it saj twice on the Sunday, Sir W. CiJ'/u/i,
and twice during the week ? "^^ "•

In the Convict Prison at Mountjoy, Dublin, we have Protestant service twice 00a a^ !?(;■!
on Sunday and once during the week. The chaplain sees the prisoners in their '' ' "

cells at other times, but the public service is only as I have mentioned.

3284. Chairma}i.~\ Are you in favour of the separation of prisoner from prisoner
in chapel during the period of separate confinement ?

No ; I think that the officers have not that control over them which they have
when they can see them all.

3285. Your objection is a mechanical one? .
Yes.

3286. Provided that you could contrive such a disposition of the prisoners as
would bring them all within sight of the officers on duty, would you prefer to have
them in separate stalls, rather than side by side and touching each other ?

I believe there is very little use in the separate stalls ; I removed them in
Dublin for this reason ; but it is a diO'erent reason from what would apply in
county prisons. I thought it was useless to keep prisoners distinct from each
other in chajiel for nine months, when they would have to meet on the public
works immediately alterwards ; therefore the stalls were removed ; I took masks
away for the same reason, but I think perhaps that masks might be advantageously
used in county prisons.

3287. Is not a mask very often a protection and an advantage to a well-dis
posed prisoner, as preventing recognition on his leaving prison ?

Yes, no doubt ; but I think it has a deterrent effect upon the man himself.

32 8 8. Do they dislike it?

Yes, there is no question about it.

3289. Lord Stewai'd.] Would you administer instruction in the school-room
separately ?

In the Irish convict prisons it is administered in the scliool-room without any
separation. I suppose in a county prison they Mould prefer doing the same to
giving cellular instruction, but in county prisons I should prefer instruction in the
cells. I should like to keep prisoners as distinct and separate as possible,
especially those who are in prison for very short periods.

3290. C/iainiian.'] Are you of opinion that the Discharged Prisoners' Aid
Societies, which have been established in many parts of the country, are beneficial
to prisoners on leaving })rison ?

Very much so. I am a member of the Discharged Prisoners' Aid Society in
London, and have been so for very many years. I believe that these societies
could be e.xtended with the greatest advantage; but in cases where no Dis-
charged Prisoners' Aid Societies exist, I should recommend, that whatever the men
earn in the prisons, be paid through the police.

3291 . Wherever the extra gratuities which you have spoken of do exist, you very
much prefer their being paid through the police ?

Yes, they might be very beneficially paid tluouiih them.

3292. Lord Wodehouse.^ You would not pay to the men the whole of what
they earn, would you?

No ; I should fix a certain amount upon each article ; and the more the prisoner
worked, the more (within certain limits) he would receive. I am quite positive,
that the county would get back the gratuity, and more than that, in the extra
work performed by the men.

3293. Karl Cathcart.'] Are you aware of the Act of Parliament of last Session,
which gives power to the visiting justices to give to a prisoner, on his discharge
from prison, to the amount of 2/. from the county rates?

Yes, I am aware of it ; but 1 imagine that they liad the power before that period.

■

3294. C ould you state to the Committee whether, in your opinion, there is any
broad and general distinction to be drawn between the treatment of prisoners in
the county prisons in Ireland and those in the county or borough prisons in
England ?

(37. 10.) Q Q 3 No,

•^10 ^ MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Sir IV. Cr^fton, No, I do not consider that there is ; they are quite as various in their different
^ modes of treatment as they are iu England, both in their location, their dietary

23dApnli8G3. and in their labour.

■ 3'295- The separate system in Ireland is supposed to lie at the root of prison

discipline, just as much as it is in England ?

Quite as much ; and, I think those that have adopted it have experienced the
best results from it.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to To-morrow, One o'clock.

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 311

Die Veneris, 24'' Ajwilis 1863.

L ORDS PRESENT:

Duke of Richmond.
Marquess of Salisbury.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon,

Earl of EoMNET.
Earl of DuciE.
Earl of Dudley.
Lord "Wensleydale.

THE EARL OF CARNARVON in the Chair.

WILLIAM OAKLEY, Esquire, is called in, and examined as follows : Evidence on

Prison Discipline.

3296. Chairman:] YOU hold the appointment, I believe, of Governor of W. Oahley, Esq.

Taunion Gaol? .. . T oc

Yeg 24th April 1863.

3297. For how many years have you held that office?

Nearly 12 years, and for about the 10 previous years I held the appointment
of chief of the Bath police, and superintendent of constabulary in Essex.

3298. During that time have you considered amongst other parts of prison
discipline the question of dietary ?

I have.

3299. And have you considered it specially with regard to the dietaries of
workiiouses?

Yes.

3300. You have prepared, have you not, returns showing the dietary in 50
county goals in England, and in 46 unions ?

Yes.

3301. Will you be good enough to put in those returns, and state very briefly
to the Committee what the general purport of them is?

I have taken simply the highest class of diet both in the county gaols and in
the unions, and have tabulated them for one week, and the result is, that on the
average of the 50 county gaols, 267 ounces of solid food, and 17 pints of liquid
food, is given per week to the prisoners; and in the 46 union workhouses in
Somerset, Devon, Dorset, Wilts, and two in Middlesex, the solid food given to
adult paupers is 202 ounces, and '[Q pints of liquid food.

3302. What is the difference therefore as against workhouses ?

A difference ot 65 ounces of solid, and one pint of liquid, between the food
given to an able-bodied pauper and an able-bodied prisoner confined in a county
prison over three months.

3303. Not including the aged and infirm in the workhouse wards ?

No ; I have all the returns showing that, but I have not tabulated these cases.

3304. I conclude that those gaols have not been picked with any particular
motive, but have been taken generally?

I wrote to all the county gaols of England and Wales, and have tabulated all
the answers that I have received, and the same with the unions.

(37. 11.) Q Q 4 3305. Which

312 MINUTES OS EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

II'. o.tMey, Esq. 3305. Which are these gaols where the dietary stands highest ?
Somerset and Huntingdon.

24lli April 1863.

3306. Huntin2:don stands at 333 ozs. of solid food, and 16 !)ints of liquid?
Yes ; there was no other gaol, except Somerset, approaching- that; in Somer-
set it is 291 ozs. of solid food, and 17 pints of h'quid.

3307. Have you a return of the Hedford prison?

Yes; Bedford is 282 ozs. of solid food, and 17 pints of liquid.

3308. Marquess of 5'rt//.s5w/7/.] Can you state what it is in Hertfordshire?
The same as in Bedford, 282 ozs. of solid food, and 17 pints of liquid ; in fact,

it is what I believe is generally called the Government scale.

3300. Chairmai/.l From 280 to 285 ozs. seems to be the general proportion?
Yes ; some gaols are less than that.

3310. Will you mention two or three of the lowest ?

At Pembroke they give no meat at all; there they give 2S0 ozs. of bread,
seven ozs. of butter, and 3S j pints of tea or gruel. The other lower gaols are
northern gaols. In Northumberland they give 160 ozs. of solid food, and
17 pints of liquid. My attention was called to tliat subject most particularly in
consequence of the great number of paupers from different unions being com-
mitted to gaol, and stating that they committed offences in the unions for the
purpose of coming to get a better dietary at the gaol. I am now referring to
unions in the county of Somerset, of which county gaol I am the governor.

3311. I observe in the list of workhouses, of which you have given the
dietaries, that meat appears to exist in every case ?

Yes.

331 2. Are you aware that there are some workhouses in tlie country Avhere no
meat at all is allowed '?
No, I am not.

33 1 3. Are you aware, also, that in many cases the meat consists solely of so
much bacon ?

Yes, I am.

3314. I conclude, on the other hand, that in all the gaols, as far as you are
acquainted with them, when meat is specified as one of the items of the dietary,
it is something beyond bacon ?

Yes; always beef or mutton; generally beef without bone.

331.5. So that there would be a difference in favour of the gaols, not only as
respects the quantity, but also as respects the quality of the food r

Yes, certainly ; it is a very common complaint made by paupers coming to the
gaol from unions that they have suet jniddings which have become musty, and
that the food generally is bad, and not so good as supplied in the gaols; of course
the statement of those paupers must be taken with a great deal of reserve, but
it is repeated so often from some unions, that one is almost compelled to believe
the statement is true. Shortly before I took the appointment of governor of the
gaol, a boy from one union actually threu- himself under the treadwheel, and
was killed ; he had stated previously that he would not go back to the union,
and that he would do something to avoid going back.

3316. Duke of liichmoiuL] And therefore he committed suicide ?

Yes. In another case, which came under my own notice, four boys were tried
at the county sessions at Bridgewatcr for stealing food, and there was, 1 believe,
no doubt that at the union the meat had been im{)roperly appropriated by the
union oflicers on the Board days, so that the paupers really got nothing but
water and onions, instead of having meat, in their soup.

3317. Did that come out in evidence?
It did.

3318. Were the four boys you mentioned convicted ?

Yes, they were convicted of stealing ; and there was no question that they
did steal. One was admitted as evidence, and the three others were sentenced
to one month and four days at Wilton, now called Taunton Gaol, and two of
them were whipped.

3319. But

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 313

3319. But you stated, did y-u not, that the male officers in the union had w. Oaklexj, Esq.
appropriated tlie food ?

They had, and they were all discharged afterwards ; i)ut there had been 24th April 1863.

re|)eated complaints trorn the same union. This happened some years ago ; but ■

up to no longer ago than last week a man was disciiarged from the gaol, having
come into the gaol with the itch; he stated that he had applied for medical
treatment at the union, and had not received it ; he was so bad with it in tlie
gaol, that he was obliged to be kept in bed, and treated for it the whole of the
time that he was in the gaol ; whether his statements were true or not it was
impossible to tell, but he said that he had committed an offence in the union for
the purpose of coming to the gaol to get medical ireatnient in the gaol, and better
food.

3320. Chuinnan.] Has it, in fact, been frequently represented to you by
prisoners, that they have committed an oflence in the workhouse, in order to
obtain admission to the gaol ?

Yes, repeatedly ; not only to me, but to the visiting- justices as well.

3321. Do you entertain any doubt as to the truth of such statement :
None.

3322. Looking at tlie accommodation which is given to prisoners, the cells,
the clothing, and the bidding, do you believe that it is very superior accommo-
dation to that which they would receive in the workhouse ?

I do ; at le ;st it is so in those prisons which have come under my own
observation. There is, of course, a difference in prisoners being kept in separate
confinement ; 1 believe that that is thought a severe punishment by most pri-
soners.

3323. Is what you have stated vvitli regard to the accommodation in union
workhouses within your own knowledge ?

I am speaking within my own knowledge. Some unions are very much better
than others ; but having gone over many unions, I believe thai, taking the
bedding, and clothing, and food, the prisoners are very much better treated than
the paupers in the unions, liie punishment to prisoners being the separate
conlinement.

3324. Is there hard labour in the gaol at Taunton ? •
There is.

3325. What are the means by whicli hard labour is imposed ?

The treadwheel in a few cases, and stone l)reaking, and various industrial
trades ; flax dressing, weaving, mat-making, tiiiloring, and shoemaking.

3326. jLord StetcarcL] You do not call such employment hard labour, do
you?

It is given as hard labour, the treadwheel being used only in exceptional
cases. I am not aware of anv provision under which a prisoner sentenced to
hard labour is required to be jjlaced on the treadwheel.

3327. Chairman.^ What labour do you inflict upon idle or refractory paupers
or vagrants, a class of men who are very much to be found in gaols :

Generally stone breaking. There may be cases in which a prisoner does not
conduct himself well in the gaol, or has been several times convicted, and he
would be put upon the treadwheel, the treadwheel being only used for sucli
exceptional cases.

3328. Lord Steward.] If a jirisoner is sentenced to a term of imprisonment
with hard labour, do you think that you arc carrying that sentence into effect
by employing him in what yo:: term industrial employments ?

It has been so considered bv the visiting justices and magistrates of the
county, that bein^i the arrangement made for labour.

3329. Is it your opinion that mat-making and so forth do amount to hard
labour ?

Yes ; but I do not consider that it is sufficient hard labour, inasmuch as they
are not kept a sufficient number of hours at that labour. I believe that the
industrial labour is very beneficial indeed, and the reason why I venture to state

(37. 11.) R u so

314 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

W.Oakley, Esq. SO is, that in a return whicli I prepared the year before last the number of

re-committals, where only stone breaking, oakum picking, and treadwheel labour

34th April 1863. ijad been used daring five years, was very much move than during five years in
" which industrial labour had been introduced to a limited extent. The five years

of oakum picking and treadwheel labour were from 1852 to 1856, and the
average number of prisoners received during those five years was 740, and the
number of re-coramittals 227. The five years of useful employment to a limited
e.xtent were 1857 to J 861, during which time the number of prisoners was 623,
and the number of re-committals only 145.

3330. Earl of Romnej/.^ You stated that there are exceptional cases in which
you use the treadwheel ; in respect to what are those exceptions made ?

Repeated misconduct in tlie gaol, and refusing to do industrial employment
•properly, and negligence in industrial work ; in such cases I find the tread-
wheel most beneficial.

3331. .Are the Committee to understand that is not ever given as carrying out
the original sentence, but as a punishment for misconduct in gaol'?

Yes ; or refusing to work properly. It is not given as obligatory to carry out
a sentence. It has been in use more of late, in consequence of 100 pi-isoners
from the county of Middlesex from CoLlbath Fields being at Taunton. During
the six months that those prisoners have been there, the treadwheel has been
extensively resorted to ; but as regards the great number of prisoners, they do
the industrial labour very w^ell, although my belief is, that they have not, l)y any
means, a sufficient amount of labour. They are not a sufficient number of hours
at work, nor do they work sufficiently hard ; partly in consecpience of the arrauije-
ments of the gaol as regards the officers' duties and the necessity of taking of
them to school, one of the rules of the gaol being, that they should go to school,
notwithstanding that it may interfere with the hours of labour.

3332. Earl of Ducie.^ What is given in many gaols as ordinary hard labour is
reserved in your prison as a punishment for prison offences r

Yes, and exceptional cases. I believe that in most gaols the treadwheels are
not sufficiently extensive to work all the prisoners at any one time under sen-
tence of hard labour.

3333. Lord Steward.^ Do you attribute the diminished number of re-commit-
tals in the second period that you have mentioned to reforming, or to the deterrent
efiect produced by industrial employment in lieu of labour on the treadwheel ?

To both, with separate confinement. I think that a pri,soner, having been
compelled to work hard when his term of imprisonment is up, calculates the
chances, between work and thieving, and he finds that work is not quite so hard
as he might have thouglit it before, and he is disposed to work it he possibly can;
whereas, in the case of prisoners working on the treadwheel only, I believe that,
after a time, they become used to it, and it is not deterring, and they become
hardened and revengeful under the treadwheel, when kept entirely to it.

3334. Is your treadwheel applied to any productive purpose ?

It is now only applied to pumping water ; formerly it was used for grinding
corn ; but it was such a great loss to the county from its being used for grinding
corn, that it was discontinued for sometime ; it is now used for pumping water
for the supply of part of the prison.

3335. Lord Wensleydalc] Why was the grinding of corn at Taunton Gaol
given up ?

Bi cause it Avas found to be a great loss to the county ; for instance, 24 men
would only grind one busiiel of corn in an hour by the treadwheel, for which
only 4 r/. would he received, so that grinding corn would not, by any means,
pay the wages of tlie guard employed as a miller.

3336. Marquess of Salishury.'] Was not that the fault of the mill ; could
not they have made the mill go much more rapidly if they had chosen?

No ; the iread wheel is restricted to a certain number of revolutions in an hour.
I found at Coldbath Fields Prison, which I visited a little while ago, that about
the same was tlie case ; not more than one bushel of corn was ground on the
average by 24 men in an hour.

3337. That

SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 313

3337- That is the fault of the machinery, is it not ? /F, Oakley, Esq.
Yes, to some extent. I have recommended to the visiting magistrates of — ~

Taunton Gaol the adoption of treadwheel labour as applied to the machinery for '^4ti P" 1803.
flax dressing, which, I believe, would be extremely useful, by using multiplying
wheels, and then, I believe, that the treadwheel might be made to pay.

3338- Clunnnaii.~\ Is there any reason why the treadwheel should not be
employed for productive labour?

I think not; I recommend that in Somerset it should be applied to flax dressing.

3339. Lord Stewai'd.] Irrespective of the question of expense, you prefer
industrial employment to the treadwheel as a means of enforcing hard labour ?

Yes, I do, excepting in certain cases. With many prisoners I have found
that keepinjj them to work at industrial labour induces them to take to
work after they are discharged from gaol ; whereas the treadwheel tends rather
to harden them, without, after they have been on the wheel for some time,
punishing them to so great an extent as is desirable, and they have not been
tauglit in any way to earn their own livelihood when their time is up.

3341. Earl of Romney.'] If they have a mode of obtaining their livelihood
before they come in, they may return to it, may they not ?

It is in those cases where men have led an idle life, many of them being pro-
fessional thieves wlio have never learned to work at all, that I think the advan-
tage of teaching them to work is so great. It is very difficult for prisoners on
discharge from gaol to obtain work. I believe that establishments should be
provided, where prisoners inclined to work, might be sent at the expiration of
imprisonment for a first offence.

3341. Lord Sttioard.'] Your object is to reform rather than to deter, is
it not?

1 wish to do both ; I wish, by keeping them to hard work, and making the
work as hard as it is possible to do, to give them habits of labour, M'hich I
believe will both deter from crime, aud induce them to work when their period
of imprisonment is expired.

3342. Duke of Richmond?^ Are the Committee to understand you to state
that the hard \york which you think induces a prisoner to become an industrious
man when he 'zoes out of prison is mat-making?

Any industrial labour, such as tailoring, shoemaking, mat-making, and flax
dressing. I have recommended flax dressing particularly for Somerset, because
flax is grown to such an extent in the county, that it would interfere less with free
labour than any other occupation. Flax dressing under the plan that I propose
would be as hard labour as could well be devised next to the treadwheel ; the tiead-
wheel is very hard work for a certain time for men tliat liave not been used to it,
but after a while they become used to it, and I think they do not care much for it.

3343. I understand you to say that you have conversed with a vast number
of paupers who come in for workhouse offences, and the result of that conversa-
tion led you to believe that they prefer coming to the gaol to remaining in the
workhouse ?

Yes; that statement has been repeated by many paupers, not only to myself,
but to the visiting justices.

3344. What is the general length of sentence which the paupers you have
been speaking of have been sentenced to I

Various periods. I have only taken account of the number, and not of the
average period of imprisonment : perhaps the average would be three months.

3345- Could you state what the ofl'ences are ?

In the cases to which I refer they have been chiefly sent to prison after
repeated offences in the union, such as breaking windows, tearing up clothes,
and offences of that kind.

3346. Would not the average sentence for such offences be three weeks rather
than three uionths ?

My answer applied more particularly to those cases in which prisoners had

made complaint of the bad diet in the union. They were ueiierally persons who

had repeatedly committed the oftence for w hich thc'v had been sometimes sent to

(37. 11.) R R 2 prison

316 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

W. Oakley, Esq. pi'ison four or five times ; in tliose cases, I think, the averaize might amount to

. three months; but in cases where theoHence had not been repeatedly committed,

24th April 1863- they would probably be sent to prison, some for one week, some for three weeks,

— as the case might be.

3347. Do you think that if those paupers were sent to gaol for workhouse
offences, and were worked hard upon the tread wheel, they would be as uilling
to come hack to gaol as you state you have found them ? ,

I think that many of them would not care to come back. At one time a greater
number of prisoners in Taunton Gaol were put upon the treadwbeel, and the
evidence of tiie fewer committals has been since the treadwbeel was discon-
tinued.

3348. Then do the Committee understand you to state that since the tread-
wheel has been discontinued, the paupers have disliked coming to gaol more than
before r

I Am not speaking of the paupers in that case.

3349. My question now solely relates to paupers ; to that class of persons
who, you state, prefer coming to gaol to remaining in the workhouse ; are you of
opinion that they would be as willing to come into tl.e gaol if, when they did
come to gaol, they were uorked hard iiuon the treadwiieel ?

I believe tliat the putting them on the tieadvv'heel would make very little
difTerence indeed. Any able-bodied man, if certitied by the surgeon as fit to
work upon the treadwbeel, can be put ujxtn the treadwbeel; but those men who
are no doubt the most idle of all, care but little for the treadwbeel ; that is my
experience.

3350. Lord Steward.^ Have you ascertained, as a fact, that many prisoners
who have been discharged from Taunton Gaol since the discontinuance of what
raav be properly called hard labour, have, in fact, become industrious labourers ?

Yes.

33'; I. Do you know tiiat of your own knowledge ?

les; but your Lordship's question would lead to the supposition that the
treadwbeel is entirely discontinued ; whereas it is not so ; the treadwbeel is still
in use to a limited e\tent.

3352. Duke of RichmondP\ Are the Committee to gather from your evidence,
more especially now as regards the class of paupers of whom we have now been
speaking, that industrial labour has a more deterring effect upon them, than
hard labour upon the treadwbeel ?

That is my opinion.

3353- Upon paupers and upon vagrants?

Yes, upon vagrants certainly. 1 mean that it deters them from coming to
gaol ; with regard to the fear of it, 1 do not think they fear either the treaduheel
or industrial labour.

3354. Lord Wenslei/daJe.] Do they get employment elsewhere?
Yes, the}' get employment when their time is up, if they possibly can.

33.55. Duke of Richmond.'] In fact, they would rather work upon the tread-
wheel than make mats?

No, 1 do not say that.

33.56. That was the result of your former answer, because you gave us two
periods, in one of which hard labour on the treadwbeel was in existence, during
wiiicb time you sta'cd that there were more recommittals than during the period
when industrial labour was in operation ; therefore, the deduction to be drawn
from that would seem to be, that tl'.cy preferred the treadwbeel to mat making?

It would be diiiicult for me to say that they would prefer workmg to the
treadwbeel. 1 tliink that if they were kept entirely to the treadwbeel the whole
of the period they ^^ ere in gaol, that would have a less deteiring and less bene-
ficial effect than if tiiey were put to mat making, for instance, or any industrial
labour with the treadwheel to resort to, provided they did- not do that work
properly.

3357- Chainnan.]

SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 317

3357. C/iairiiumJ] Is it your opinion, with regard to your last answer to the |j-. Oahky, Esq.
noble Duke, that the class of men from whom vagrants come, and who are sent — ;-
from unions for workhou'^e offences over and over again, are a class of men who '^4th April 5863.
may benefit by any industrial occupation, and are trained into becoming hunest ,

and respectable men ?

In some cases 1 have found that they are ; not in many cases, certainly, but
in some.

3358. Do vou not believe that as a class ihey are positively the most incor-
rigible persons with whom vou have to deal?

Yes.'

3359. And therefore that those who are benefited are very rare exceptions ?
Yes.

3360. Would you still, in spite of that fact, hold to the opinion that industrial
occupation was the most deterring punishment that you could inflict upon those
men r

Yes; keeping the treadwheel to resort to in cases where they did not do their
industrial work properly. I started, I think, by saving that I did not believe
that anv prisoners were kept sufficiently hard at industrial employment, and
that the number of hours they were at work was not sufficiently long.

3361. How many hours are they at industrial occupation ?
About nine hours and a half.

3362. What additional time would you recommend ?

One hour and a-half, or altogether eleven, and with the power to compel them
to do a sufficient amount of work.

3363. Are you not aware that the Act of Parliament limits the number of
hours of work to ten ?

Yes, unfortunately that is so ; and it also gives power to take out of that tea
hours a certain amount of time for school.

3364. But do you apply school instruction to vai^rants and paupers who are
committed to prison for a week or a fortnight ?

if they apply for it under the gaol rules, they are bound to be allowed to go
to school, notwithstanding that it may interfere with the labour. Under the
rules for the guidance of the governor of the Somerset County Gaol, it is pro-
vided that he shall see that all prisoners, including those sentenced to hard
labour, have sucli an amount of time allowed to tiiem for the instruction as
the chaplain may think proper, whether such instruction withdraws them Irom
their labour for a time or not.

3365. But that makes the instruction dependent, does it not, upon the chaplain,
and not upon the prisoner ?

Yes ; but generally where a prisoner applies to go to school, the chaplain
recommends it.

3366. Would the chaplain be likely to agree to the request of a prisoner if
the prisoner were simply committed for seven days ?

I think not.

3367. Therefore, that rule would not intert'ere with your keeping prisoners at
work for the full ten hours allowed bv the Act of Parliament ?

No.

3368. Lord Steivard.] Do you think that the scale of dietary in Taunton Gaol
is too high r

Yes; it is higher than almost every other gaol in the Kingdom.

3369. Setting aside the cases of invalids, have you considered what the scale
of diet ought to be for adult prisoners ?

In a report to the visiting justices last Novem^her, I ventured to lecoinniend
tlyee or tour gaols princi|)ally in the North of England as the best from which
the scale ot diet should be adopted : on reference, I find thuse naols were Cum-
berland, Derby, Sussex and Westmoreland. I thought that the dietaries of those

(37. 11.) R R 3 gaols

318 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

W. Oakley, Esq. gaols weie tile best from which one should be founded for the county gaol of

Somerset, and the visiting magistrates, in a report to the Secretary of State,

24th April 1863. expressed their opinion that the dietary of Taunton Gaol should be altered, parti-

cularly mentioning one point, namely, that convicted prisonm's should be kept for

the first week on bread and w ater.

3370. Duke of Richmond.'] What Sussex Gaol do you allude to ?
Lewes. They do not appear to give any meat at all in Lewes Gaol.

3371. Lord Stetvard.] Have you generally found a reduction in the quantity of
food to be an effectual punishment ?

Yes ; I have ventured also to report to tht- visiting justices my belief that a low
diet ought to form one of the principal ingredients in the punishment of prisoners.

3372. Do you consider that you would he justified in discharging prisoners in
• a lower state of health than that in wiiich they were when they were admitted ?

No ; but my belief is that they are much better fed in most gaols than they
could possibly be out of gaol.

3373. Chairman.'] Have you any other suggestion which you wish to make
to the Committee ?

Perhaps your Lordships will allow me to solicit attention to one point, to
which I have called the attention of the visiting justices at Taunton, and that is
as to the necessity of work for debtors committed for Fraud or disobedience of
orders of court. There is no power to put county court debtors, or debtors
committed for fraud, to work, and they are consequently in the gaols sometimes a
long period, and put to the worst possible purpose, namely, idleness during the
whole time that tliey are there.

3374. Marquess of Salisburj/.] Have they not the option of working ?

Yes ; but I never knew one to ask for it. It has struck me for years that an
alteration was desirable, and I reported upon it in 1854.

337.5. Lord S/ewiird.] Do such persons associate with each other, or with the
prisoners in gaol, or are they kept in separate confinement r

The prisoners are in wards, first, second and third class wards, the county
court debtors and fraudulent debtors being in the third class ward, and they
are there from a period of from 10 to 42 days, doing nothing the whole
time, and coming in repeatedly for the same cause. If the debt is not paid, they
are committed for contempt of court, and the debt is not extinguished by their
committal.

3376. Are they allowed to associate with the other prisoners?

With the other prisoners of the same class, not with the ordinary prisoners ;
they are not in separate confinement ; they are walking about in the yards the
whole time with their hands in their pockets, and generally doing nothing from
the time they enter to the time they go out of gaol.

3377. Earl of Romneij.] Do they maintain themselves?

No ; they are maintained at the expense of the rate-payers of the county. I
ventured to call the attention of several noble Lords to the subject at the time the
Lord Chancellor's Bill for the Amendment of the Bankruptcy Laws was before
the House, but I fear I Avas too late ; I suggested that power should be given to
the County Court Judge to say whether such prisoners should be put to labour
or not.

3378. You mean with regard to those persons coming in, perpetually com-
mitting frauds against their creditors, and just escaping coming within the
criminal Iua r

Just so.

3379. Lord Wensletjdale.] Do you think it rcisonabl"^ that debtors who do not
pay their own expenses and are fed upon th*; ibod su|)i»Iied by the county should
make some compensation for it by their industrial labour, so as to ])roduce some
advantage to the county from their labour ?

Yes; and 1 would venture to take higher ground also, that a man being fora
lon<i i>eriod in gaol and in idleness, must of necessity become a worse member of
societv, and that he certainly ought to be made to support himself.

3380. Ihit

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 319

33S0. But yoLi have no right to treat him as a criminal, have you ? w. Oakley, Esq.
Cei tainly not. <

338!. Lord Stexvard.] How many hours are the prisoners in Taunton Gaol
allowed to remain in bed?

From 8 o'clock at night till G o'clock in the morning — ten hours.

3382. Do they sleep in hainmocks or in beds ?

Seventy-two of them sleep in hammocks, and the remainder on mattresses
stuffed with straw on bed boards, in the new corridor of the gaol.

33S3. They are not allowed to iinsliug their hammocks, or spread their mat-
tresses before that hour, are they ?
Not till a short time before 8 o'clock.

3384. And then are all the lights turned off?
Yes, all the lights are turned off at 8 o'clock.

3385. Is not the allowance of 10 hours' sleep very long?

It is ihe full period, but there is no lemedy for it. Under the existing Acts
of Parliament there is no power to keep a prisoner at work more than ten hours.
I may perhaps be allowed to mention what the dietary in Taunton Gaol in 1840
was; all prisoners were then kept on 1 pint of oatmeal gruel, containing 2 ozs.
of oatmeal, I li). of bread, and \h lb. of i)otatoes for six days in the week, and
on the Sundays 1 pint of oat.meal gruel, 1 lb. of bread, 1 lb. of potatoes, and 6
ozs. of uncooked meat. I am desirous also of soliciting attention to a recom-
mendation of mine in 1853, which further experience has confirmed my opinion
as to the necessity of.

Extract from Pamphlet, published 1853.

" Employment should be provided or a refusre established for prisoners who, on their
discharge from scaol, are willmg to work. This seems to have been contemplated by
4 Geo. 4, c. 64, s. 39, which states, ' Prisoners discharged from prison should be supplied
with tiie means of returnino; to their families, or to some place of employment, where they
may be engaged in a life of honest lalour for their maintenance, and prevented from pur-
suing evil courses.' In many instance s where employment has been obtained for prisoners
on their discharge from naol they have afterwards clone well ; and at least 15 out of every
20 prisoners committed for second ofTencis, are believed to have been guilty of them because,
having been one e convicted, the hope of gettinu honest employment for ihe future is gone.
They have no opportunity to regain their characters, or avoid starvation. There is no pro-
vision (or ordinary labour in union houses, and able-bodied men, willing to work, will not
go to them.

" A very small contribution from county rates to an establishment that would soon pro-
bably be self-supportihc, njiiiht prevmt much crime, and save large sums now expended in
prosecuting and punishing offenders.'

_ »

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

WILLIAM GOLDEN LU.MLEY, Esquire, is called in, and examined

as lollows :

3386. Chairman.'] YOU hold the office, I believe, of Legal Secretary to the W.G.Lumley,Esg,

Poor Law Board ?

I am one of the Assistant Secretaries to the Poor Law Board.

33S7. You are a barrister, are you not?
I am.

_ 3388. The Poor Law Board exercise, within certain limits, a control over the
dietary of the different unions, do they not .'

Yes; it is one of tlie express provisions of the Poor Law Amendment Act
that the dietaries of the inmates of workhouses should be under the control of
the Poor Law Commissioners, and that control therefore they have always
exercised.

3389. How long have you been at the Poor Law Board ?
Since 1839.

(37. 11 ) rr4 3390. Therefore

320 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

W.G.Lu»ilei/,Es(/. 3;)00. Therefore you are perfectly conversant with the practice of the Board

in iiil tliose matters for many years past?

24th Apr.l 1863. J ^^^^ gQ

3191. I believe, some time since, six tables or bases of dietary were laid down
by the Poor Law Board for the adoption of the different unions in the country?

I had better state the matter a little in detail. At the commencement ot the
Commission, as far back as 1835, when the unions were formed, and during the
establishment of them, the Pour Law Commissioners collected together all the
dietaries in use in the workhouses in the different parts of the kingdom, and
had them compared together ; they selected from the returns as many as
six different scales of dietary prevailing in the different divisions of the country,
and framed a circular letter setting out all those scales. As the unions were
formed, this letter was sent to the Boards of Guardians, with a recounnenda-
tion that they should select from the series of scales one of them which
would be most suitable for the workhouse in that particular district and that
particular union. The guardians acted accordingly, selected that which seemed,
most suitable, and returned it to the Poor Law Commissioners, and for the
most part the scale so sent to the Commissioners was adopted by them,
and introduced into a formal order binding the guardians to use it for the
future. That course was pursued until almost all the unions were formed, and
all the workhouses established. From time to time, after the formation of the
unions, the guardians occasionally found that, the dietary in use required
alteration, and in some respects, and in most cases, required some increase. The
recommendations and suggestions of the guardians were duly attended to, usually
after some comm.unication with the Assistant Commissioner in charge of the
district, and sometimes with the medical officer of the workhouse ; but the changes
proceeded upon the experience mainly of the guardians, as they had found
the dietary work in their union. That course was pursued until the year 1850,
when Lord Fortescue, the Parliamentary Secretary, suggested that it would
be convenient to obtain the aavice of some eminent physiologist who would
advise as to the proper mode of dealing with the subject, and Dr. Lyon Playfair
was then consulted on the part of the Poor Law Board. He gave information
and details as to the constituent parts and chemical properties of the different
substances used in the dietaries of the unions from which tables were formed :
and from that time all changes in dietaries have been tested by a relerenee to
those results and those tables. The experience of the Board therefore is mixed
up with the scientific information received from this high authority, and all
changes have been thenceforth subjected to a considerable amount of scrutiny.
But they are taking place from day to day according to the conditions of the
unions and the circumstances of the paupers who are admitted into their
workhouses.

33Q2. Was there a large variation in the six formulas or tables that were
origmally laid down r

I think there is some variation in them ; I may observe that this letter and
the tables will be found printed in the second volume of the Reports of the
, Poor Law Commissioners, published in 1835 or 1836. The scales vary certainly

in some respects, because tiiey were taken from different parts of the country,
and the food of the labouring classes varies very considerably in different i)arts
of the country.

3303. Will you be good enough to put in that table?

Yes; I will put in this letter, which will give the different scales — {delivering
in the savie. Vide Appendix).

3394. Were the modifications which were made by the local authorities on
those six different cases very various and very extensive ?

Many of the dietaries remain almost unaltered to the present day ; but by far
the greater portion have been altered, and, I believe I may say, the alteration
invariably has been an increase, more or less, but still an increase in the quantities
of food supplied to the inmates.

3395. Has it been mainly an increasing quantity, or has it been an increase in

quality ?

SELECT COMMITTBE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 321

In both respects; sometimes the nature of the food has been altered, and WG Lumk E
sometimes the quantities increased. ' ' J ^"' '''

3396. Has meat become a more important element of diet than it used to be ? ^^ ^^" ' ^'
Taking the -whole of tiie dietaries which have been modified, certainly that

has been the case ; there has been more meat introduced into the dietaries since

the first institution of the dietary tables.

3307. In the case of many unions, is not bacon the only representative of
the element of meat ?

Bacon is undoubiediy one of the ingredients of the food in some unions, but
"cooked meat" istlie general term introduced into almost all the dietaries; it is
not confined to bacon.

3398. Do you believe that in the majority of unions under the head of "meat"
■would be included beef and mutton?

Yes, certuinly ; in the greater number of unions the pauper inmates would
have beef or mutton ; undoubtedly, very often there would be bacon, but it would
be beef or mutton for the most part.

3399. Vou believe that those instances in which bacon is the only representa-
tive of meat are very rare ?

Yes, certainly ; bacon as the only portion of meat in the dietary would be
quite a rarity.

3400. Would you feel it your duty in such a case to point out to the guar-
dians that the nieie allowance of bacon, without any other form of meat, would
be insufficient?

1 can hardly say that the Poor Law Board would insist upon that, because the
question must depend upon the nature of the food used among the independent ,
labouring classes in the particular neighbourhood. Where the labouring classes of
the neighbourhood live only upon bacon, it would be wrong to insist upon a
different food for the inmates of the workhouse.

3401. Do the dietary tables of all the different unions pass in review before
you at least once in the year ?

No.

3402. What means have you of knowing whether it is the practice, or it is not
the practice, in particular parts of the country, to ^ve bacon alone, or to give
bacon in conjunction with other meat?

We have no special means of knowing that, unless some matter turns up in
regard to some particular union. If the guardians are satisfied with the dietary
as it is fixed and settled in their union, the dietary table would remain unaltered
for years, and that has been the case in many unions ; but if it be found, by the
experience of the medical officer of the workhouse, that the health of the inmates
requires a change in the dietary, that medical ofhcer would bring the matter under
the notice of the Board of Guardians, and they would consider it, arrange for
some alteration to be made, and suggest an alteration to the Poor Law Board ;
and then the Poor Law Board would enter into an inquiry upon the subject,
either through their inspector or through the guardians themselves.

3403. Duke of Riclmiond.'] Could bacon be substituted for meat entirely in
any union without the Poor Law Board knowing it?

No ; it ought nut to be. 1 am assuming that people are not fining things which
are grossly illegal. One of the provisions of the Poor Law Board's Order is that
the dietary table should be hung up in three or four different parts of the work-
house, and, therefore, the pauper inmates can see what the dietary is which they
ought to have, and what the food ought to be. Again, the inspector of the
district has to inspect the Avorkhouses once or twice every year, and it would be
his duty to see to the food ; and one of the questions which he has to answer
is, that the regulations prescribed by the diet and other orders of the Poor
Law B(iard are carried out into due execution. Therefore, the inspector has to
see that this matter is duly attended to. It is not very likely that a change would
take place in the dietary without the Poor Law Board being somehow informed of
it. '1 hen, again, there is this additional control over the matter: all the provi-

(37. 11.) S s sions

322 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

W.G.Lumley,Es<j. sions consumed in the workhouse must appear in the books kept by the master

of the workhouse, and he must submit them to the auditor ; and the auditor will

S4th April 1S63. see whether the food has been suppUed to the inmates according to the dietary
table.

3404. Marquess of Salisbury.] Bacon is generally dearer than beef or mutton,
is it not ?

Yes, I think so. It depends very much upon the contracts of the guardians,
and upon the part of the country in which the workhouse is situate ; but I should
think that in some parts of the country, bacon would be dearer than the beef
that is used in the workhouse.

3405. The dietaries require a certain weight of meat, do they not?
Yes, certainly.

3406. It is not very likely, therefore, that the guardians should adhere strictly
to bacon, when it Avas the dearest meat under all circumstances r

No; it would be adejiarture from the order.

■^407. But if tlie weight is the same, and bacon is dearer, there is no profit
derived from the use of bacon ?
Certainly not.

3408. Chairman.] I understand from your evidence that the diet varies very
much wuth the food of the inhabitants of the locality ?

Yes.

34OQ. Could you deliver in to the Committee any returns, or could you give
them any dietary tables which might be accepted as fair specimens, representing
the amount of food given iu the different workhouses in different large districts
* of England?

I can place before your Lordships a copy of 12 orders, taken from different
parts of the kinL'dom ; for instance, the dietary of Berkshire, Cornwall, Cumber-
land, Denbijjhsliire, Glamorganshire, Gloucestershire, Kent, Lancashire, Lin-
colnshire, Northumberland, and Staffordshire, besides that of three metro-
politan parishes.

3410. May those dietaries be accepted as fair average specimens, neither
expressing the maximum nor the minimum of the diet in those different
counties ? •

I think they show very properly the average dietaries of those counties from
which they are taken, and, of course, the surrounding districts in the neighbour-
hood of the unions. I have the dietaries themselves here and the orders issued.
Those which I propose to put in are the dietaries now in force, and some which
have been lately issued. 1 have also obtained information as to the dietary
ori'iinaliy issued in two or three cases, and a comparison may be shown of the
difference which prevails between the first and that which exists at the present
moment.

3411. Lord Steward.] Is there not a considerable difference, either in the_
quantity or in the quality, between the highest and the lowest of the existing"
scales ?

Yes, certainly ; because a dietary which would be suitable to an agricultural
labourer in Ilamjjshire would be very inappropriate for a London union, and
very unsuitable for a dietary in respect of paupers from Lancashire.

3412. Are you s])eaking now of quantity or quality?

Of both ; there is more meat in the Metropolitan and the Lancashire dietaries
than there would be in the Kentish or in the Hampshire dietaries.

341 3. Chairman.} Do you think there is any reascm why a metropolitan jjauper
should receive a greater quantity of foofl than a Hampshire labourer ?

I do not know that the result will prove that he receives more food ; there is a
difference in the kind of food ; I am not prepared to say that there is more or
less nutriment in either one or the other. It would probably be advisable that
some complete analysis should be made of tiie chemical results of the dietaries
ill the two classes of cases.

3414. Lo id Steward,"]

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 323

3414. Lord Steward.'] U'as not such an analysis made by Dr. Lyon Playfair? w.G.Lvwletj,Esq,
No ; the mode of ascertaining in each particular case, with certainty, the

chemical results was obtained through the suggestions and calculations of Dr. 24th April 1863.

Lyon Playfair, and, of course, we can apply to any specific dietary the scales and

the rule resulting from them.

3415. Chairman.'] Can you state to the Committee what the fundamental
principle of Dr. Lyon Playfair's dietary was ; did it regard meat as a main
principle ?

No. Dr. Lyon PlayfHir gave the results of the different kinds of food used in
the pauper dietaries, and thereupon, having obtained those results, the dietaries
of the different unions in the different counties were analysed with reference to
them. The average results were obtained in respect of all the different unions
in the different counties ; and from that time forth, in the case of any union
that wishes to bave either a new dietary or a modified dietary, that average
result is apphed to the new projiosal ; and if it is found that the guardians'
proposal will come up to that average, or will exceed it, the Poor Law Board,
for the most part, are prepared to adopt the modification.

34it5. Lord Steward.] The point from which you start is, that a certain
quantity of nutriment is necessary for each individual?

We cannot tell how much nutriment will be wanted for each individual. It is
presumed that the experience of the guardians has ascertained, that for the
inmates of their workhouse the dietary scale upon which they have acted for a
long series of years is sufficient ; that is the presumption. Then the medical
officer shows that either the kind of food is not sufficient, or that it is desirable,
for some reason or other, mostly for the benefit of the inmates, that there shouhl
be some change. The proposed change is then investigated, and subjected to the
scrutiny of this table.

3417. Marquess of Salisbury. ] Is this tuble the minimum that you would
adopt ?

No ; there is no table prescribed by Dr. Lyon Playfair as to what should be
given to any particular pauper or any set of paupers ; all that he has given is
this : that taking all the ditierent ingredients, and the subject-matters of the food
used in the workhouses, the chemical properties, when analysed, will give such
and such results. Therefore, when a proposed dietary is submitted comprising
any of those substances, the table of Dr. Playfair is applied to the proposal on
the j)art of the guardians.

3418. Chairman.] I understand, consequently, that the result of Dr. Playfair's
analysis was to give you a certain standard, or test, by whiciiyou would measure
the dietary of every union ?

It is so.

3419. What is the principal element in that standard, or test table, of Dr.
Lvon Playfair's ?

All the articles are in the table.

3420. Is it reduced to chemical elements r

Yes. For instance, as a general illustration, he gives a table, from which it is
ascertained that bacon contains a certain proportion or quantity of nitrogenous
ingredients ; it also contains a certain quantity of substances freer from nitrogen :
the table also shows the quantity of mineral matter, and also the quantity of
carbun, which latter ingredient is not much attended to. But the important
subject for the consideration of the Poor Law Board is the nitrogenous ingredient,
and the proportion of that ingredient, in the table submitted to the Poor Law
Board by the guardians, is the matter upon which the main attention is exercised.

342 1 . Lord Steward.] Is it not the fact, as-a general rule, that every individual
requires a certain amount of nutriment ; say, that if you give less meat you must
give mure milk, or more bread, or some substance containing an equal quantity of
nutriment '^

I do not know that we can apply that rule exactly to the inmates of a work-
house collectively in any particular localitv.

(37. 11.) s s2 3422. Does

324 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

.W.G.Lumley,Esq. 3422. Does not every man, every woman, and every child, upon tlie average,

require a certain amount of nutriment ?

24th April 18G3. Yes ; upon the average it is so.

3423- Then, if j'ou have a certain number of inmates in a workliouse, there
must be a certain amount of nutriment administered to them ; and I ask you
whether it is not necessary, if you Lnve less meat, or less of any one article of
food, that you must give a proportionate increase of some other article of food?
For instance, if you give less meat, you must give more bread ?

Yes, certainly ; the necessary amount of nutriment for the sustenance of the
inmates must be supplied either from meat or farinaceous substances.

34J4. Chairman.^ Will you be good enough to put in Dr. Lyon Playfair's
scheme ?

It is scarcely in a form whicli would be useful to tlie Committee, although it
is available for the purposes of the Poor Law Office, and for purposes of com-
parison, but it is not prepared in a shape to be put forward as a report upon the
subject from i)v. Lyon I'layfair ; it consists ratiier of heads or memoranda for
their guidance.

3425. Would it be possible for the Committee to understand, from \\hat you
have put in, what the average quantity of food in the workhouses may be?

I will read one of those orders which are sent with the dietary: "Ordered,
tiiat the paupers received and maintained in the workhouse of the union shall,
during the period of their residence therein, be fed, dieted, and maintained with
the food, and in the manner described, as follows." Then comes the table. The
one that I have before me is for men and women, and it prescribes what the
dietary shall be for the diflerent days of the week, and the quantities that shall
be given for breakfast, for dinner, and for supper, under diflerent heads, according
to the subject-matter of the food.

3A-26. Marquess of Salisbury:] Does not Dr. Phiyfair tell you how many
ounces of each class of food are rcfjuii ed ?

No ; all that he toid us was Mdiat would be the component parts, chemically,
of any particular species of food. He told us, for instance, that bread would
contain so much nitrogenous and so much non-nitrogenous substance.

3427. Lord Stetcarc/.] Do you think that what you call the improved dietary
has had any sensihle eftect«upon tlie health of the inmates of the workhouses
throughout the kingdom ?

I can hardly answer that question precisely ; for the great proportion of the
inmates of workhouses, in the larger portion of the country, consists of aged
and infirm people. I do not think that the average of life is much increased,
but certainly the average of life has in no way diminished, since they have been
in the union workhouses.

3428. You stated, did you not, that since the taking of the analysis of Dr.
Playfair, you have increased the dietary ?

In any cases where there has been an application for a new dietary since
that time, the tendency has been to increase tlie amount of food. I should put it
more correctly that the tendency has been more to increase the amount of
anitiial food, but I can hardly answer the question as to the effect upon the
health of the inmates.

3429. Chairman.] Are you at all conversant «ith the general dietary sanc-
tioned in the different county and borough prisons ?

No ; I am not acquainted with it.

3430. It would be impossible therefore for you to state whether the average
dietary of the workhouses be above or below the average dietary of prisons ?

We do not know that ; we are guided mainly in the Poor Law Board by the
test of experience. The union workhouses have now been in existence fur 25
or 30 years (that is, the greater proportion of them), and they have a dietary
table in all ; and in the main, though I admit that modifications have taken
place in certain unions, the modifications are not very great ; we have no reason to
believe that the proportionate or conqjarative mortality has increased ; we
rather think that, upon the whole, the state of the workhouses is better than it
was at starting.

343'- 1^0

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 325

3431. Do you believe that the average dietaries in the workhouses are supe- w.G.Lumley,Esn.

fior, or inferior, or about equal to the average dietaries of the inhabitants of their

respective localities? 24th April 1863.

In the rural districts, I have very little doubt in my own mind, that the dietary

of the Morkhousc is above the average of the dietary of the labouring classes.
There are many agrieidtural unions where the inmates have cooked meat three
times a week, and I do not believe tiiat the agricultural labourer would have
that amount of cooked meat. But, on the other hand, if you compare the dietary
of worklioiises in the metropolitan districts, or tlie M'orkliouses in the manu-
facturing districts, with that of the labouring classes in the time of their pro-
sperity, undoubtedly the scale of dietary in the workhouse would be below that
of the independent labouring classes ; because their rate of wages beino; high,
their scale of living is also high. Hnt in the rural and agricultural parts of the
country, however, 1 believe that the workhouse dietary is far above that whicli
the labouring classes would enjoy. It was probably not intended to be so
originally, but this is the necessary result of the looking after the people by the
central authority, and by the Boards of Guardians.

3432. Has it ever been represented to you, or are you aware, that workhouse
oft'ences are sometimes committed with a view to gain admittance to prison, in
order to enjoy a supposed snperior diet?

Not by the regular inmates ; I have not the sliglitest reason to sujipose that
there is any possible foundation for that : but there is a class of persons who
come into the workhouse, and run out of it, vagrants, tramps, and casual poor
persons » ho come in for a night ; and it is an allegation, which probably is
true, that many of those commit offences in the workhouse, and are sent to
gaol. Whether it be that they get sent to gaol for the purpose of obtaining
bettej- food than they would have in the workhouse, or whether it is because they
are of that vagrant character, and loose dissolute life, that they are reckless of the
consequences, I am not prepared to say. They would not receive more food, or
they would not receive such food in the workhou-;e, as vagrants, as they would
be hkely to receive in prison ; of this there is no doubt. But they form a very
limited class, one which can hardly be dealt with in any way b}' the Poor Law
authorities. But so far as the ordinary regular inmates of workhouses are con-
cerned, 1 do not think that there is any foundation whatever for that «hich has
been frequently stated, that the inmates commit offences in order that they may
be sent to prison and get a better dietary. ' •

3433. A large proportion, especially at the present time, of the inmates of
workhouses consist of aged and infirm people, against whom that allegation could
not exist ?

Yes; or of women, the mothers of illegitimate children who are living in work-
houses, and of orphan and deserted children.

3434. Are you of opinion that, partly from the passage of those tramps and
vagrants through the workhouse, and partly from other causes, there is a good
deal of demoralisation which goes on within the workhouse, which leads to the
commission of offences, and the filling of the gaols?

I think it is very difficult to trace the operation of motives upon criminals in
respect of the causes of crime. I do not think that the workhouses themselves
jtroduce any incentive to crime more than is to be expected from the existence of
the low classes of society. There is notiung in the workhouse that necessarily
leads to it; the inmates are chiefly persons who are there from reduced circum-
stances, and for support in their old age and in their sicknesses : there is very
little to lead them to commit offences.

343.5. Is there not an association between the young lads in the workhouse
and the tramps and vagrants who are passing through, and who have very ofteni
been convicted and re-convicted offenders?

There should not be, and I should say that there is none whatever; because the
tramp-ward is totally distinct, and jierfectly secluded and separated from the
wards where the lads or girls, or the other ordinary inmates of the workhouse,
are kept. There is no reason why those tramps should have any intercourse
with them, nor have they, as I believe.

(37. 11.) s s 3 343<^. You

326 MINUTES OF EA'IDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

W.G.Umley,Esq. "436. You belicA^e, tlierefore, that the classification as generally adopted is a

sufficient pafe2;uard figajnst the contnniination which is frequently alleged to take

24th April 1863. place in workhouses?

^ Between those two classes undoubtedly it is quite sutficient, and it is, for the

most 1 art, rigorously maintained.

3437. Earl of Duck.] What is the diet of a casual pauper -

It varies in different places ; but for the main it is bread and water, and perhaps,
occasionally he gets a little porridge.

3438. What quantity of bread do they have ?
Six or seven ounces of bread.

3439. That is for one meal?

Yes, that is for one meal. The tramps come into the workhouse at different
hours; generally speaking, they come into the house at night, after the evening
meal.

3440. Earl of Ronniei/.] Are you spcakini!; entirely of wayfarers and wanderers,
who come in just for the night, and go on ?

Yes.

3441. Besides those, there may be many persons who ordinarily live
by thieving, and who are settled parishioners in the union, and, for some reason
or other, a man chooses to go into the workhouse, and he is there associated with
all the other labourers of his class, is he not r

Undoubtedly that is so.

3442. So far as that goes, there must be contamination, and it is impossible to
help it ?

Yes, quite so : a man associates with persons in the workhouse just the same as
he would associate with the same persons if he were in a village ; and this cannot
be prevented, so far as his own class is concerned.

3443. CJunnnun.'] Who are the class of people by whom the workhouse
offences are gtneially committed, such as breaking windows and the destruction
of fun iture ?

Tlie greater portion of them are vagrants ; occasionally there are some violent
young women perhaps in the workhouse, hut it is not a class of .the able-bodied men
and women, because that class is not much in the workhouse : the peisons who are
sent to prison for the most part from the workhouse are the vagrants. They come
in and are angry at being set to work, or they are angry because they have not
better fare, or have some other cause of dissatisfaction ; and they break a window,
and tear up their clothes, and strip themselves, and abuse the master, and pro-
bably abuse their fellow inmates : and these are the classes, for the most part,
who are sent to prison for workliouse off'ences.

3444. It is your belief that there are a considerable number of persons, taken
from that cLiss, who do commit offences within workhouses with a view of ijeing
committed to prison ?

I do not know that one can trace this ; it is very difficult to find out the motives.
We only know that, in point of fact, they do commit offences, and are sent to
piison ; and when they are before the Committing Justices, they often say they
committed the offence to get to prison, because they are so wretched and mise-
rable that they juefer being in prison to being at large : that is a statement
which is made and nobody can contradict,, because it depends upon a man's
motives, which cannot be traced. Now and then there are individual paupers in
the workhouse who arc dissiitisficd with their treatment there; some who would
wish to go away no doubt, but uho have no other means of going away, and
who are prohibited from being relieved out of the workhouse. There are, occa-
sionallv, instances of other persons who are dissatisfied and go away from the
workhouse, not so much because they arc dissatisfied with the fare of the work-
house, but because they want to be released from the workhouse ; a few cases of
that kind have come under the notice of the Board.

3445). Dnke of Ric/imo)i<L'\ Are the Committee to understand from you, that
your opinion is that the number of persons who prefer hard labour in a gaol, or

the

SELKCT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 327

the treadmill, to the reUef in the workhouse, with the power of leaving it when- w.G.Lu>'ilc:u,Eiq.

ever they please, is very great ?

That is not my opinion. It is impossible to know what the motives of crimi- 24th April 18G3.

nals are; but judging from one's own natural inferences, and from anytliing that

we can infer from matters which are brought under our notice, I think that the
jiauper inmate of a workhouse is generally far too comfortable to prefer going to
gaol, where he Avould be kept to hard labour for a certain time. In the work-
house there is a regular diet, there is good clothing, there is a warm building,
and there is attendance in case of any illness ; and there is, generally speaking,
some consort and companionship with acquaintances and neighbours. All that is
, to be set otl" against the confinement in the gaol, with hard labour, and the fare,
about which I do not profess to give any opinion, because I do not know the
absolute fare in the different gaols.

3446. Lord Sfncard.] Does your experience lead you to say that if the dietary
in the county prisons in England is decidedly superior to that in the workhouses,
the prison dietary might be reduced without any danger to the health of the
prisoners ?

I think I ought not to say that decisively, because you must take into con-
sideration the employment, and its action on the class of persons who are in
prisons. Their ages should be considered. I should suppose that the average age
of the inmates of workhouses would be very far above the average age of the
inmates of prisons, therefore the workhouse might require a much lower dietary.
Supposing a workhouse to be filled, for instance, with aged persons, the proper
dietary would be much lower for them than the prison dietary.

3447. Do you not believe that the dietary in the workhouses is sufficient for
the maintenance of the health and good condition of an able-bodied man in the
prime of lifer

We certainly expect that that is so.

3448. If that be so, would it not follow that a dietary much superior to it in
quantity and quality would be more than sufficient for the maintenance of the
health of a male adult prisoner ?

Taking the dietary for the adult able-bodied inmate of a Avorkhouse, I should
think that it ought to be sufficient to satisfy and keep him in good health.

344Q- Duke of Richmond ] Is it not possible that what might be a perfectly
sufficient diet for an able-bodied pauper in a workhouse, might be insufficient
for that pauper if he was kept to hard labour on the treadwheel ?

That is a point upon \\ hich I should have only an opinion ; I have had no
knowledge of that. I should certainly infer that the labour which we can impose
upon an able-bodied man in the workhouse would never be so exacting and so
severe as that to which he is subjected in the prison, and consequently that
there would be a greater expenditure of vital power on the part of the man in
prison than there would be in the workhouse.

3450. Lord Steward?^ The hardest labour you generally give in workhouses
is stone-breaking, is it not ?

Yes, stone-breaking is the hardest labour ; that, or digging in the fields, which
of course would not be equal to the labour on the treadwheel.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

JAMES ANTHONY GARDNER, Esquire, is called in, and examined

as follows :

3451. Chairman.] YOU are the governor of the Bristol Gaol, are you not? j. A. Gardner, Esq-
I am.

3452. For how many jears have you held that appointment ?
Twenty-six.

34.53- Wi^l yo^ s'^^*^ ^^ ^^® Committee what is the average number of
prisoners within the gaol ?
About 160.

(37. 11.) s s 4 _ 3454- ^oes

328 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. A. Gardner, Esq. 34.54. Does that include debtors ?

It includes all clsses ; but our debtors are very few, perhaps not more than

24th April 1863. six or seven now,

^ 34.").5- I believe the gaol is a building of old construction ?

It is ; it has been built about 50 years.

3456. Since you have iield the office of governor, has it been your object as
far as possible to adapt the old construction of the gaol to the separate system ?

Yes, it has.

3457. Do you carry out the separate system in complete strictness ?
Yes, completely so.

3458. And of course under the rule of silence so far as the prisoners are con-
cerned with respect to each olher?

Yes ; and with the exception of three or four prisoners, employed outside
the wards, none of them see each other.

3459. There is consequently neither sight nor communication?
Just so.

3460. Is that carried out in all the different departments of the prison ?
Yes ; in the cells, in the wards, in the school, on the treadwheel, in the chapel,

in the exercising yards, and throughout the prison.

3461. How is that separation carried out in the exercising yards ;■

We have se|)arate compartments built, with bars in front, so that a prisoner
cannot possibly look round into the next compartment ; there is an officer
stationed in front and another behind, for the purpose of removing prisoners to
and from their cells, or to and from the school, or to and from the chapel.

3462. So that he is, in fact, within a groove of iron?

Yes ; there is a door behind him and bars in front, with windows to lift up
and down.

3463. Does that arrangement require a large number of officers to super,
intend it '.

Yes ; the construction of our gaol is such that Ave cannot do with so small a
staff" as we could if we were on a more modern plan.

3464. Are all the prisoners allowed to take exercise?

We do not give them any other exercise than the treadwheel, except in the
case of invalids.

3465. Tliis arrangement to which you allude is for the purpose of exercising
invalids ?

The invalids are exercised in small compartments, 17 or 18 feet long, and four
feet wide.

3466. I do not quite understand from your description to what class of
prisoners it is that those yards, with bars of iron on each side, are appropriated;
do they exercise in parallel lines ?

They do.

3467. With a gaoler in front of each ?
Yes, in front of the whole class.

S4f')8. I'^arl of liovmci/.] So that the compartments are for one man only ?

Yes.

S469. And the officer standing in front sees each of them ?
Yes.

347". Ef>r1 of lhu//n/.] Do they converge to a centre?
They do not, but stiil all tiie officers can see them.

3471. ChairnKiii.'] Do the prisoners wear masks ?

They wear a bag down to their shoulders, which they can see through exceed-
ingly well ; but tlicy cannot recognise each other's features, or the make of the
shouliicrs behind.

3472. Marquess

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 329

3472. Marquess of Salisbury.'] How is it with regard to respiration? J. A.Gardner, Esq.
It is perfectly free ; it is nothing more than a veil after ail.

3473. C/iainnan.] What are the class of prisoners that make use of those ^^ P*^'
yards.''

The convicted and the untried.

' 3474. Do the untried wear those bags ?
Yes, they all wear those bags; it is merely to prevent the possibility of the
men being recognised in the gaol, and they are only too thankful for it ; indeed,
many of them ask to be kept separate before they know that we are so very
strict ; they say, on being admitted, " Can you anyhow manage to keep me
separate without seeing the other prisoners ?"

3475. So that it answers a double purpose — that the ill-disposed prisoners are
prevented from having communication with the well-disposed prisoners, and, as
to the untried prisoners, it prevents recognition on the j)art of their comrades r

Yes, it answers that double purpose.

3476. 1 understood, from your previous answer, that the only exercise that
you allow to the healthy prisoners is the treadwheel ; are the class of men who
make use of those exercising yards those who do so by medical order ?

Yes.

3477. And no others ?
No others.

3478. The mass of the prisoners are exercised simply by means of the tread-
wheel r

That is all ; on Sundays we e.\ercise them the best way we can by admitting
them into those compartments, for a short time each prisoner.

3479. Do you find that system effective ?

Quite so. During the time I have been Governor, 26 years, we have never lost
a female prisoner, and we do not' lose more than one male prisoner in 12 months ;
those that we huve lost have come to us, perhaps, in the last stage of consumption ;
I do not know one single case that has been taken ill on the premises and died.

3480. Do you find that the prisoners dislike the system in your establishment ?
They very much dislike our gaol.

3481. Do you find that many of them are recommitted from your own
district ?

They are not ; we merely get back the professional thief.

3482. Is yours a county prison?

It is for the city and county of Bristol ;* Bristol is a county,

34S3. What is the population of Bristol ?

About 175,000. We have a better opportunity of watching the discharged
prisoners in Bristol, from the fact of their having come from within a ring
fence; therefore we knou where they are when at lar^e. In most; other gaols,
when they are discharged, they can go 40 miles perhaps from the prison,
whereas we know where all our prisoners go to.

3484. You have described to the Committee the separation, such as it is, in
the exercising yards ; will you now explain the system of separation that you
have established in the cells ?

They are removed from the compartments in each yard to the cells in each
ward, one at a time. An officer is i)laced at the cell door, and another at the
compartment in the yard. i)irectly a prisoner is released from the yard, having
been employed at some work, such as tailoring, shoemaking, or oakum picking,
they turn a half-minute glass, and when the sand is out they let another go ; when
the man arrives upstairs he rings a bell to show that he is out of sight, so
that they never see each other.

3485. Are the cells all certified ?

No, they are not certified, in consequence of their not being sufficiently large.

(37.11.) Tt 3486. That

330 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J.A.Gardner,Esq. ^^gj-, -pj^^^. j.gg^,i(g^ (j^gg jt ^0^, from the old construction of the gaol, which

!7 „^ it was impossible to remedy r
.4thApnla863. ^,j^^^ .^^^^j^^ ^^^3^_

3487. How large a portion of the day is spent by the prisoners in those
cells ?

They rise at six in the morning, and return to their cells from eight to
nine ; from nine to tun they are in chapel ; from ten to one they are in the yards
again ; from oue'to two they are at dinner in their cells ; from two to six they
are in their yards again, and from six to seven they are in their cells ; at seven
their clothes are taken from them, and they aie locked in for the remainder of
the night.

3488. How many hours' sleep do they have?
From seven at night to six in the morning.

3489. Do you not reckon that a very large allowance to devote to sleep ?

It is a long time; but without a larger staff of officers we could not do better.

3490. Are the cells lighted ?
Tijey are not.

3491 . Earl of Dudley.'} You would require an extra staff of officers if the cells
;ie li

Yes.

weie lighted in the evening ?

3492. It is a very long day for your staff as it is ?

Yes, the officers work very hard indeed ; one-half stay on till eight o'clock
on alternate nights.

3493. Cliainmm.] Do they use hammocks or beds ?
They use straw beds.

3494. Do you find that that is cleaner, or that it has any advantage over
Tiamraocks ?

l"he only advantage, I think, is, that if a piisoner is not as clean as he ought
to be, we can destroy the bed at once, and wash the canvas.

3495. Have you ever made use of guard beds for short sentence prisoners^ or
as a prison punishment .'

We have not.

3496. Would you see any objection to the use of them .-
JNone whatever.

3497. Would you apprehend any injury to the health of the prisoners from
their u.^e ?

I think none whatever in summer.

340S. Might it not be a very salutary punishment ?

I think it would at present, when a prisoner is refract orv, instead of giving
him his bed at seven, I give it to him at 9 or 10, or 1 1 or 12, as the case
may be.

3499. Earl of Romney.~\ Do you do that on your own authority ?
Yes ; but of course I make an entry of ever\ thing of the sort.

3500. Earl of Ducie.'] Why do you take their clothes from them at seven
at night ?

It is from tiie fear of the possibility of their attempting to make an escape.

3501. Marcjuess oi Salisbury.'] You stated that there was an average of 160
persons in the gaol, out of a population of 17i3,000 ; that is one in how many ?

About one-tenth per cent., or something like that ; I think we average a smaller
percentage iu Bristol than in any other city in England.

3502. Chairman.'] I understand from tlie evidence that you have given that a
prisoner, in passini^ to or from the cell, can have neither sight nor commimication
with any of his fellow- prisoners; and that the system, so far as tlie cell is con-
cerned, is strictly separate in your prison ?

Quite so.

3503- Do

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 331

3503. Do you look upon that strict separation as an essential part of your J. J. Gardner, Esq.
system ? " —

Yes, I do; I tiiink that M'e are exceedingly fortunate in havins: so small a '■''4* April 1863.

number of prisoners out of such a large number of inhabitants. I would add

to thar, that if a warder wifully allowed one prisoner to see another, he would
be dismissed directly, at the very moment.

3504. V(!U believe that the al)sence of commimication is really adhered to?

Yes ; 1 am perfectly satisfied that it is so ; and they dislike our o-jiol in con-
sequence of that ; and we are informed that they leave Bristol directly they are
discharged from the gaol.

3505. Is the turnkey at liberty to talk to a prisoner at all ?

No, except to direct him as regards his work, and then the prisoner whispers
only ; and the officer is compelled to speak out loud, and to stand at a distance
of six feet.

3506. Is that rule strictly adhered to ?

It is. There is no officer on the premises that would dare to let me see him
nearer a prisoner than six feet

3.507. What would be the penalty r
He would be fined.

3508. Have you ever had occasion to fine a man ?
Yes, frequently.

3509. But you consider that the rule is observed r
Yes, strictly so.

3510. Has the chaplain frequent communication with the prisoners?

He visits' a certain number every day, completing his round once a week.

351 1. Consecpiently, the chaplain has a given number of prisoners in a given
part of the gaol that he visits, ani no interference is effected with the ordinary
machinery of the gaol ?

None whatever.

3512. Earl of Dudley.'} It is not compulsory, therefore, upon the chaplain to
see every man per diem ?

It is not. It would be impossible for the chaplain to do it. It would take me
four hours, in the way in which I visit them.

35 1 3. Marquess of Salisbury.] Do you see them every day ■

I see them every day ; but 1 may go into the wards perhaps twenty times a day
afterwards. I am always with the prisoners.

3,5 1 4. Chairman.'} Are you aware that the chaplain, under the ordinary rules
of every prison, has a discretion to see any prisoner that he pleases at any time r

Yes.

3515. Does that hold good in your gaol?
Yes.

3516. But, practically, by the arrangement which you have described to the
Committee, I understand that the chaplain visits a certain number of prisoners
every day, and that the distribution of the labour amongst the remainder of the
prisoners is not interfered with ?

It is not interfered with at all. At the same time, in addition to the ward that
he appoints for Monday, or Tuesday, or Wednesday, he would see all the sick
and the newly committed prisoners.

3517. With regard to the chapel ; is the system of separation carried out there
as strictly as in the cells and in the exercising yards ?

Yes, quite so.

35.1 S. You have put in a plan to the Committee of the chapel in the gaol ; is
that a new chapel ?

Yes ; it is a chapel built by myself; it was all built by the prisoners, without
an architect or a single tradesman,, except one carpenter ; it is valued at 3,500/.,
and is insured at 2,500/..

(37.11.) tt2 3519- tTow

332 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. A.Gardner,Esq. 35 > 9- How lonsj since was it built ?

.. About six years ago. {The JVitness describes the Plan to the Committee.)

24t pri 1863- 3520. Will you explain to the Committee the principle upon which the
- prisoners are admitted to the separate stalls from behind ?

The prisoners are admitted in the same way that they are admitted to their
cells, and from their cells to the labour-yards, with merely this difference, that
the officer is placed in the chapel to receive them, and another is placed in the
ward to let the prisoners out, and they are told out by a half-minute ij;lass, just
in the same way as 1 have before described. There is a passage behind every
row of seats, so that we can take out a prisoner, if he is unwell, without even
the next prisoner knowinp; it; whereas, in Pentonville, if one man is sick yoa
must take out the whole class before you can get at him, particularly if he is
in the centre.

3521. How long does it take to fill those stalls, and to withdraw the prisoners,
after the service is concluded ?

We take half an hour to fill the chapel and half an hour to empty it.

3522. Do yon believe that communciation passes between the prisoners when
they are in those stalls ?

1 do not.

3523. Are you aware whether the stalls themselves are defaced by indecent or
filthy inscriptions .'

They are not. In consequence of having built the chapel myself I look at the
seats al-.nost every day myself; and I specially place a mun there once a
week to go into every cell-stall, and spen 1 three or four hours in the chapel.
The prisoners are told, that if they distigure the stalls in the chapel they will be
punished with considerable severity, and I do not believe there is a single scratch
in the chapel.

3.524. Are the prisoners in the stalls in full sight of the chaplain and the
officers ? '

Yes, of several officers.

3525. Are they allowed to sit during part of the service, or are they i-equired
to stand?

They sit and stand just the same as in any other place of worship.

3526. Do they Isueel down ?

•They can kneel down ; but v.e would prefer them not doing so.

3527. In the stall, when they kneel, are they hidden from view?
It they knelt we should just see their heads.

3528. Can. the prisoners, by those arrangements, see each other ?

They cannot see each other. I think I might as well tell your Lordships at
once, that the prisoners in our gaol are very seldom punished, although we are
supposed to have the worst class of prisoners. We have a smaller number of
punishments in our gaol than in any gaol of the same size in England. Take
the I'aunton Gaol, or the Gloucester Gaol, or any other large prison; from
what I can learn, they average from 450 to 500 per annum, but we do not average
more than 50. That is in consequence, I think, of the discipline being so very-
different.

3529. Will you state what your punishments are for breach of prison rules?
Bread and water for one day, two days, or three days ; we have flogged before

now, but we do not often do so. We have locked up the prisoners without bread
and water ; and in very extreme cases, where an officer's safety has been endan-
gered, we have placed a man in irons.

3530- Would you be willing to surrender the power of flogging ?

I should not like to see floggin<i done away with for the purpose of prison
discipline. I think if used a little more freely, all the gaols in England would be
better managed and quieter.

3531. It has been given in evidence by several witnesses, that flogging, when
applied under legitimate conditions, is very effective, and that in the opinion of

many,

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 333

many, an offence of the same kind has never been repeated after the administra- J.A.Gardner, Esq.

tion of one corporal punishment ; is that your opinion ?

It is not. 24th April 1863.

S.^i^s. Have you found it ineffective ?

I flogged at one period 162 prisoners in one year, and I am perfectly satisfied
that it did no good. The only good that flogging will do, in my opinion, is in
cases of breaches of prison discipline. A man does not like to be flogged, and
if iie were flogged at once he would never misconduct iiimself again ; but it
would never prevent him (rom committing felony ; it would be of no use in that
respect.

3 1,33. Do you not think tliat it is a most effective punishment for breach of
prison rules ?
Yes.

3534. If a man knows that for a breach of prison rules he would be imme-
diately flogged, and that the ])unishment would be immediate and»close upon the
action, do you not think that that would be very effective ?

The best possible punishment.

3.535- ^^ ould you be good enough to explain the difference between tiie effect
of the two punishments — flogging for a breach of prison I'ules, and flogging
which tornis a part of the sentence ?

When a man is at large, he commits an offence in the hope of never being
found out ; he risks it in fact ; when he is in gaol he is found out directly.

3536. He knows that there is no escape as far as detection is concerned?
Just so.

3537. Earl of Dudlej/.] Your opinion would be tliis, would it not, that a man'
about to commit a crime does not think of the consequences?

He does not think of the consequences.

3538. Chairman.'] To return to the subject of separation in the chapel, it has
been given in evidence that the eflect is very bad upon the minds of the prisoners,
because it depresses them, and irritates them, and induces them to pa\' less
attention to the service than they would if they were in close contact with each
other ; is that your opinion?

It is not ; the prisoners look forward to the Sunday with the greatest delight ;
it is the severest punishment we can possibly inflict upon a prisoner to prevent
him going to chapel on the Sunday.

3539. Is that for the sake of the service, or for the sake of the sermon?

It may possibly be for both ; we have a very nice service, and a very good
chaplain ; and, as a rule, they are very attentive ; no congregation can be more
orderly.

3^40. Earl of Djidlei/.] Do they join in the singing?
They do not.

3.541. Is there any singing?

Yes ; our singing is considered good.

3542. Do they join in the responses?
They do not ; they are quite silent.

3.543. Earl of Rouuiej/.] Who sings in the service ?
The warders, both male and female.

3544. Chairman.'] Is there service in the chapel every day?

The service in the chapel is daily ; but the males do not attend at the same
time as the females ; they go alternately.

3545. Do you find that the daily chapel becomes a mere routine performance
with the prisoners?

When all the prisoners went every day, the males and females together, they
found it irksome ; if ihey could stay away, they certainly would ; we thouijht
it would be best to separate them on that account, and to prevent the possibility
of relations signalling to each other.

(37- n.) T T 3 3546. Earl

334 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

j.A.Gardner,Esq. 3546. Earl of Rouniei/.] Why slioukl it be irksome to have the men and \vo-

men in the chapel at llie same time?

24.th April 1S63. IBecaiise each class would go every day, and now they go alternately.

3547- Chairman.^ Do you not consider that three times a week is better per-'
haps than six ?

Yes, a great deal. As far as regards myself, I have been going to that cliapel
for 26 years almost every morning, with the exception of about 12 mornings in
tlie year, and twice on Sundays, and I find it very irksome.

354S. Ea\\ of Ronvieij.] Your business mainly tliere is to be watching those
men ?

Not exactly so ; 1 can see every one very well from my seat, but the attend-
ance every morning at a particular hour is irksome.

3549. Chairman.'] Are any of the warders told off for the express purpose of
chapel ?

The schoolmaster sits in front, in the organ loft, and there is a warder behind
every class.

35.50. Have you ever noticed that, during the address from the clergyman,
the prisoners exhibit any emotion, such as crying?
Yes, frequently, in the case of females.

3551. Do you not conceive that the separation by stalls is an advantage
under those circumstances, inasmuch as it enables each prisoner to conceal his

• emotion from his companions ?

Yes, it is ; prisoners, generally speaking, are thankful, and have told me that
without being separate it would be impossible to pay the attention they desire.

3552. How is the ventilation of the stalls secured ?

There is an Oj'ening in front, and an air-hole at the bottom, and also a large
cold-air shaft in the centre, from wiiich we can get any amount of fresh air.

3553. Is there anything in that plan which woidd prevent its adoption in any
ordinary prison chapel ?

Nothing whatever.

3554- Do you make use of that chapel as a schoolroom ?

We do not ; we have a very small room for the school, and one prisoner at a
time is taken in.

3.5j:'). Hom- many does the class consist of?

We do not form them in a class ; they are instructed separately, one at a time,
by the schoolmaster and the schoolmistress.

355G, Earl of Dudley.'] Do you find that they can get through the work in
the day by teaching them separately ?

Yes, and it is astonishing how^ they get on ; they get on faster than they would
in the National School ; they have nothing else to think of.

3557. How often does it come to each man's turn to be under the school-
master ?

I should think every other day perhaps ; the schoolmaster has nothing else to
do but to attend to the prisoners from nine o'clock in the morning; he sees as
many as he possibly can during the day ; he goes round and round the gaol
continually, and the schoolmistress the same.

3558. Chairman.] Mr. Perry is the inspector of your prison, is he not?
He is.

3559. Does he approve of that system of separation in chapel ?

Mr. I'erry has a very high opinion, I think, of our gaol ; he has been into the
chapel during Divine service, and he says it is the beat gaol chapel in England. I
do not know that he exactly approves of it, for he has never told me that he has or
has not approved of the separation by stalls ; but we could not well do without
that separation, because I know if the prisoners were not separated we should
not have so many good cases out of our gaol. I know well that there are
now, perhaps, 700 or 800 persons holding respectable situations who never saw

each

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 335

each other in gaol ; and they say that if they hail only been seen by some of the J. A. Gardner, Esq.
inmates, they never should have been able to obtain or retain situations.

3560. Earl of Dudley.] There is a record against them, is there not, and they -4th Apnl 1863.
are sentenced in public court ?

Yes ; they may be seen there for a sJiort time during trial. I know two boys
who were in my prison, both from the same place. I went into a shop to buy
some furniture for the use of the prison, antl a boy ran out to me, and said,
" Please, sir, do not say that you saw me." I asked him what he meant, and he
said that he had been in prison, but that he had got a good place, and he
intended to keep it. There was another boy in sight who had been in prison
at the same lime, and I asked the tirst one whether he saw any one that he
knew, and he said "No," showing tliat he did not recognise the other boy.

3561. Earl of Romnei/.] Was that a Bristol boy?
Yes.

3562. If he is tried in Bristol, and surrounded liy his friends, how is it that
he is not known ?

He may be known by his friends ; but the two bovs, never having seen each
other when they Mere in gaol or during trial, could not recognise each other in
the place where they were enijiloyed.

3563. C/uiirman] Had your chapel those separations when you first became
governor ?

No ; it was so confiued that M'e were obliged to build another, or enlarge the
gaol.

3564. Consequently, you have not had any experience of a chapel without
those separations ?

I have seen a chapel without separations.

35(ij. Do you believe, from your personal knowledge of the subject, that
communication goes on much more freely where there is no separation than
■where there is ?

I know that in our own gaol, before the chapel was separated at all, in the
chapel en the old form, two years before I went there, one of the most daring
robbeiies committed in Bristol was concocted in the chapel, and afterwards
carried out.

3566. The Committee therefore understand that, in your opinion, separation
in chapel is a most valuable part of your system, that you would not dispense
with it, and that you have not experienced any disadvantage fom it?

No ; we have experienced tiie greatest advantage from it ; the prisoners them-
selves have told me that if it were not for tlie separation, they would not be
able to say their prayers.

35(17. Is the chaplain himself equally^ satisfied with it ?
He is perfectly satisfied.

3568. How frequently does the inspector visit the gaol ?

I cannot exactly answer that question; perhaps once in 12 or 14 montiis.

3569. How long does each visit of the inspector last ?
Three or four hours, sometimes calling again the next day.

3570. During that time does he go over the whole gaol }

Yes; he sees every prisoner. I generally keep a long distance behind him,
or, perhaps, wait at the gate, whilst he goes in, and says to every prisoner, "If you
have any complaint to make, I am the Inspector of Prisons, and you have an
opportunity of doing so."

3571. Earl of Ronmaj.] Does he look at your books?
Yes, he does.

3,572. And does he ask you whether you have visited every prisoner every
dav r
Yes.

(37.11.) tt4 3573. Is

336 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

' '' 3.573- Is it your practice to visit every cell and every prisoner every day ?
h A '1 i86i ^es, every day ; indeed I visit them oftener tiiati that, for I am always on the

" premises, and I am rather active, and it is what I have taken some Lttle pleasure
in i'or some years past.

3574. Does the inspector, when he comes, examine to see whether the rules
of the prison are carried out in all points ?

Yes ; he is very particular in making inquiries, and, indeed, he puts words
into the prisoners' mouths, but they never make any complaint ; 1 wonder at their
not making complaint, as the discipline is more severe in our gaol, perhaps, than
in any other prison.

3j75- He has not only to see that the prisoners are properly treated, but that
the rules are properly carried out; does he take care to see that ?

Yes; there is not a part of the gaol that he does not see, nor anything but
what he asks about.

3576. Marquess of Salisbury.'] Do you think that there is any communication
between the prisoners during the night r

No ; there are two night warders always on duty.

3577- Can any voice be heard?
No.

3.578. Earl oi' Di/dki/.l Has there been any recommendation on the part of
your inspector to soften off this severe system .?

None whatever.

3.579. He accepts it such as it is, and reports upon it ?

Yes ; and I believe Sir Joshua Jebb also is very much pleased with our gaol ;
he has told me so.

3580. You stated that a great number of those prisoners were gone out into
the town of Bristol, and were new in good situations, and that you believe that
those situations have been obtained very much from the fact that they had not
been recognised by those who had been in prison with them during their imprison-
ment. Have you traced at all the case of second convictions, whether they get
placed out in the same manner }

They do not; 1 think when men come to gaol, and adopt thieving as a profes-
sion, they go on till they end with penal servitude.

3,58 r. After a second conviction you look forward to a man becoming an
habitual thief?
Quite so.

3,582. Chairnian.'] Are you aAvare of the difficulty which very often arises in
law courts in identifying a previously convicted prisoner ?
1 am.

3583. Have you ever considered, or have you ever adopted, any scheme by
which previously convicted prisoners may be more completely identified ?

I introduced some years ago (indeed I was the first who introduced them) the
daguerreotype portraits of the prisoners, and from having succeeded in one or two
cases, we introduced it more freely ; v.e now take a large number of portraits, and
1 think it would be very difficult for a man to es-cape detection in our gaol. I take
a stereoscopic picture, instead of a plain portrait, and I re(|uest the parties to
whom 1 send it to put it inio the stereoscope ; they have a better opportunity of
seeing the man before them standing out in relief.

3,584. Do you take a portrait of every prisoner who is committed to your
gaol ?

We do not. I do it myself, and I have no time to take so many- ^Ve merely
take portraits of those whom we do not know — railway thieves, and strangers
to the city, who arc taken up for picking pockets at the railway stations and in
railway carriages.

'S^

3585. Have you found the practical advantages of that system?
Yes, I have found out a great many by that means. On one occasion I recollect
an officer of mine being offered a large sum of money by the wife of a prisoner to

release

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 337

release him. He ^vas offered 100/. This was reported to me; and I thought J. A.Gardner,Eiiq.

that as the man had only three months more to serve, he certainly must be wanting

somewhere else. I took his portrait directly, and sent it round to perhaps 40 or 241)1 April 1H63.

50 different gaols, and he was recognised at last at Dover. I had an order from - —

the Secretary of State to remove him, instead of discharging him. I removed
him on a Friday, and on the following Friday he was sentenced to 15 years'
transportation tor highway robbery. ♦

3.586. Have you had other instances of the same sort?
Yes, many.

3.587. Did the judge who presided at the trial make any comment upon that?
I do not know. I was not there at the time ; but it was entirely through the

portrait that he was recognised.

3588. Are you of opinion that if the system were more extensively carried
out, of taking photographic portraits of all the different prisoners in the different
prisons, and if communication took place between the governors of the different
gaols, that would lead to the identitication of a vast number of previously con-
victed prisoners ?

Yes ; and, if it was well carried out, I think it would be almost impossible for
a man to escape.

3589. Would there be any practical difficulty in carrying it out?
None whatever.

3,590. Will you put in evidence a return of the form which you use in for-
warding the photograph of a prisoner ?

Yes. This was the form {producing the same) which I introduced at the time
when I commenced the system of taking photographs of the prisoners. I was
the first who introduced it, and I have got it introduced into pei'haps 20 or 25
gaols, and they all adopt this plan. A portrait is the best part of a man's
description ; and if it is w-ell taken, and particularly one this size, it is almost
impossible to mistake the features of the man.

3591. Earl of Dudley.'] You say that there is no difficulty about taking the
photographs of the men. I presume you mean that, practically, they have not
refused to let them be taken ?

They have not. But 1 have taken them walking, unknown to them.

3592. A prisoner, by closing his eyes and distorting his features, and moving
during the seconds of time that the portrait is being taken, would destroy the
likeness, would he not ?

I have never met with but one who did that, and I took that man's portrait
when he was walking. In order to try the experiment. I took out one of my
domestic servants into the garden, who was placed at a certain point of the |iath
Avhere it was not possible to see the camera, and at a long distance. I found
after some time ttiat I succeeded very well ; and I told the officer to come to
me with the man ; the moment he came there I pulled out the slide, and suc-
ceeded in a second ; it was quite good enough to catcli the man by.

3593. Supposing there is any op[)osition to your doing it, you have the
means of carrying it out ?

Yes. I could take a man through a small aperture ; I do not think there
would be very much difficulty in getting him to sit. You may now and then
meet with a man like the one I have referred to, but you might catch an
opportunity, or you might build a place for the purpose.

3594. C/iainniDi.'] Do the prisoners themselves dread being photo,graphed ?
They have frequently said to me, " I know what you are at ; I have been in

gaol; 1 will tell you all about it" ; ami I have told them that they need not tell
me, as it might be used against them ; and upon that I have taken the portrait.

359.5. Is not the cost of the apparatus very trifling?

It is a very trifling sum ; but it would be quite as well to have a good one.

3596. Have you ever considered the expediency of affixing, by means of gun-
powder or some other device, a mark upon the person of a prisoner upon a
second conviction ?

(37. 11.) U V I have

338 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J.A.Gardner,Esq ^ have often thoui^ht that as deserters are marked with the letter D, it would
not do very j^reat harm to mark a thief, and I should mark him by a tnachiiie

24tli April 1863. made upon the principle of a cupping machine. 1 would rub him over with

— ■ — gunpowder and water properly mixed, and mark him " Bristol gaol;" it might

be done in one single second, without any pain or hurt.

3.597. Do you conceive that there would be anything degrading in it?
Tsothinii' whatever; he would never be able to get it out ; it would be placed
of course behind him.

3598. I mean would there not be a sense of degradation produced on the mind
of a prisoner r

I should think there would.

3599. Earl of Dudleij.'\ Would it have a healthier moral effect upon him in
your belief?

Yes ; I believe it would prevent many from coming to gaol.

3600. Chairman.'] Do you think that it would interfere with his obtaining
employnient in any way, after he had left the prison :

No, it would never be known. I have often thought that if a prisoner were
marked with the name of the gaol, and the date of his conviction, it would be
impossible for him to get it out, if placed where I have suggested.

3601. Does not, practically, the employment of flogging mark a man in such
a way that the traces of it are generally left for the rest of his life?

Never ; the flogging that we have been in the habit of enforcing lately, which
is onlv three dozen lashes in the week, would not mark even a child, fr, will
look very bad for a i'ew days, but directly the inuHammation goes off, which may
take only two or three days, there is no mark left.

3602. What is the limit of the flogging that you inflict ?
We give from two to tliree dozen lashes.

3603. Are you aware of an order from the Home Office reducing the four
dozen lashes administered to Government prisoners for prison olfeuces to two
dozen ?

We have received an order for adults not to receive more than three dozen
lashes, and juveniles not to receive move than two dozen.

3604 Earl of Dudley.] The number of lashes to be inflicted either upon an
adult or a juvenile comes down with his sentence, does it not ?
We have never any sentence sent to us from the Home Office.

3605. When a sentence is passed by the court, is it not the practice, in Bristol,
to name what number of lashes are to be given ?

It is not. I may possibly have seen the number specified once.

3G06. Is the sentence simply " to be flogged once or twice," without mentioning
the number of lashes?
Yes.

3607. Is it not the rule to mention the number of lashes ?

i have never seen any rule of that sort ; we never have it mentioned ; we all
know, in the gaols, that we cannot give more than two dozen lashes to a juvenile
and three dozen to an adult.

3008. Lnrd Steivard.] Is the instrument for flogging the same now as it was,
or has there been any alteration in it?

It is precisely the "same ; 18 inches the lash, and 18 inches the handle.

3609. Chairman!] Will you describe to the Committee what the forms of hard
labour are in your gaol r

The trcadvvhcei ; but we really do not use it as hard labour; we use it because
we cannot help ourselves ; we use it for pumping water.

3610. Do you use the crank r

We iiave no crank; we |)ick oakum, make shoes, and make the clotliing of
the "-aol, and do the work of ihc gaol; we do all the building on the premises,
and we have done so for the last 20 years.

3611. How

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 339

3611. How can you do tliat without bringing the prisoners into associa- J. A. Gardner. Esq..
lion ?

When we built the chapel we had 20 prisoners together ; we were compelled to 24th April 1863.
work them together ; we could not work them separately.

3612. Lord Stetiorcl.] Were they veiled, or masked r

No ; we were obliged to unmask theui ; but that is the only exception ; every-
thing else we do separately, with the exception of the number before mentioned.
I should tell vour Lordship that the chaprl was built without asking for money.
The Corporation voted a sum, but I thought that we would do without; we built
it entirely without. We made the money ourselves; we made some little things
on the premises during the two years that we were at work, and with the profits
aiisinu from that we built the chapel. We used the inmates in the gaol for that
purpose, but we Avorked up things that we never worked up since or before. We
made mats and baskets, and other things, and every prisoner was at work in the
best way he possibly could.

3613. Chairman.'] Do you approve of the use of the treadwheel as an instru-
ment of penal discipline ?

The treadwheel is no good in that respect.

3614. On Avliat do you ground that belief?

A prisoner, when he is aware that he is not at productive labour, is care-
less and reckless as regards himself and every one else, but if you place him at
remunerative labour he is well conducted, and will do a fair day's work.

3615. Have you not stated that at present the treadwheel is employed for the
pumping of water, and is not the pumping of water productive labour ?

Yes; it saves us about 100/. a year.

3616. Would a prisoner be open to that feeling which you have described
•when he knew that he was pumping water and saving the prison 100 /. a year ?

Quite so ; they do not think that anything; they do not think that pumping
water is any service ; but if they were grinding corn, or anything of that sort,
they might fancy it was remunerative labour.

3617. VVould there be any practical difficulty in applying the treadwheel to
grindimr corn ?

it would not pay; at Gloucester [laol, I believe, they lost 50/. a year by
grinding corn, which they have since discontinued.

3618. Your object, therefore, as I understand, is to make the labour of the
prisoners remunerative to the gaol ?

I would rather see it remunerative than not.

Sfiig. Is there not a risk, by pursuing that system too far, of losing sight of
the penal element in the hope of obtaining a money remuneration ?

I can hardly answer that question; we like to make as much money as
we can, to save the gaol from costing as much as it otherwise would, and if the
prisoners, when at large, earned, as they ought, an honest livelihood by their
labour, we think there is no harm in their assisting to support themselves whilst
in prison.

3620. Do not you, for the sake of that, discard the really useful element of
penal discipline upon the treadwheel ?

I think not, because the other labour is quite as irksome.

3621. How do you punish short- sentenced prisoners as regards labour?
They work just the same as long ones ; they take their turn at the tread-
wheel.

3622. Do vou employ them in industrial occupation?
I do. ■

3623. In the case of a person who is committed to prison for 10 days, and
perhaps knows nothing of industrial employment, ha's no time during those 10
days to learn it, how would you act in that case ?

We would put him to oakum picking. If he was a shoemaker, we would put
(37. II.) u u 2 him

340 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

if". A. Gardner, Es(/. liimto wovk at shoetiiakiiig, or a carpenter at carpentering, immediately after

his committal.
24tli April 1863.

3624. Would you give him the treadwheel r

No, we would not give a regular tradesman, such as a carpenter, a mason, or
a tailor, the treadwheel ; we would make better use of their time.

3625. Do you assign the industrial labour by piece-work ?
We do not.

3626. What check have you upon the prisoners working ?

We have always an officer in fi'ont of them, and they are compelled to do a
fair day's work ; if they do not do what we call a fair day's work, they are
reported for neglecting their work, and punished.

3627. What is the punishment?

We may possibly caution them the first time, and we give them bread and
water afterwards. We do not pay them for their labour, but we give them a
small sum when tliey are discharged, to put them out in the world.

3028, Looking at the great inequality which necessarily must exist between
different prisoners in point of stature, strength, size, and skill, is not it very difK-
cult for the warder in charge to estimate what you term a fair pro)3ortion of
work ?

No; the size of a man does not at all interfere with his labour ; a small man
can pick just as much oakum as a large one, and a small man can work on the
treadwheel just as well as a heavy one ; there is no difference at all in that
respect.

362q. Duke of Rkhnoml.'] Did you not state that you do not give the tread-
wheel to short-sentenced prisoners ?

We do ; but not in all cases. If a man came in who was a carpenter, or a
cabinet maker, or any trade, so that we could possibly make use of him, we should
put him to work at his trade at once ; if he knew no trade we should give bini
oakum picking, with a turn on the treadwheel at times.

3630. A tailor or a carpenter you would employ at his own trade?
Yes ; one carpenter will maintain six prisoners free of cost to the City.

3631. Then I understand that if a tador or a shoemaker, or a carpenter comes
in sentenced to a short term of imprisonment, he would be employed during the
whole of his sentence at tailoring, or shoemaking, or carpentering, and not upon
the treadwheel ?

Just so.

36^2. But if an agricultm-al labourer comes in, who knew nothing about
tailoring or carpentering, he would be placed on the treadv;heel ?

He would do garden-work, perhaps ; he would commence with oakum-
picking, the treadwheel, cleaning the part of the ward he is in, and so come
round to his work again.

3633. Then so far as I gather from you, the effect would be to place the tailor,
or the shoemaker, or the clirpenter, in a better position than a man who comes
in as an auricultural labourer knowing no trade, because the former would
be workimr at that trade and occupation to which he was accustomed, and
which would therefore to him not be difficult, whereas the other man would be
picking oakum and working at the treadwheel ; is not that so ?

It would be still hard labour ; we do have a fair day's work out of them, and
they get nothing lor their labour ; it would be a hard day's work after all.

3634. But the t-.iilor or the shoemaker out of doors would work hard ?

Yes; but if we \vere not to work the tradesmen who are prisoners we should
have to pay for the performance of that labour.

3635. It is not the reason that 1 want now, but is it not the fact that a tailor or
a shoemaker committing a crime, and being sentenced to three weeks' imprison-
ineut in your prison, would simply be employed in doing that which be would
be doing out of doors in his own shop, had he not committed a crime, whereas

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 341

an agricultural labourer who committed the same crime, and was sentenced for J. A. Gardner, Esq.

the same time, would be at Moik on the treadwhecl or picking oakum ?

Yes ; they would not be employed at the mill. 24111 April 1863.

3636. The tailor or the shoemaker would be doing the same thing as if he
liad been at his own house ?

Yes ; but he would be doing it shut up at the same time, and subject to the
routine of prison discipline.

3637. Marquess of .Sa/wto/'j/.] How did 3'ou keep up the separation of prison-
ers in such labour as building the chapel ?

There were 20 prisoners whom we selected to work togetlicr on that
occasion.

3638. Those 20 were allowed to communicate .-
They were.

3630. Then it was only for that particular occasion that you departed from
your system ?
That is so.

36^0. CJiair)}ian.'\ Which form of punishment do you believe the prisoners
prefer ; the treadwheel, or industrial occupation ?

I do not think they like being on the mill; not as we formerly worked it ;
that is to say, for the whole day together ; we used to put on section 1 from
the morning till breakfast time ; another from after chapel till dinner; another
section from dinner lime till locking up time ; then they did not like the tread-
wheel ; but now I think, particularly in the winter, they would prefer having
'their hour at the tieadwheel lo not having it.

3641. By the abandonment of the treadwheel to the extent to which you now
carry it, are you not sacriticing the penal and irksome element of prison dis-
cipline which makes that prison discipline so very deterrent to the prisoners
themselves ?

I do not know that we are ; we have introduced, as every other gaol perhaps
'has done, all sorts of work that we can put men to. We do not like to see men
upon the treadwheel for a longer time than we can possibly help for the supply
of water, any other labour being more remunerative.

3642. There Avould be, however, this difference, would there not, between you r
system and that of any other gaol, that whereas in many other gaols the vast
majority of prisoners would have been taken from the rural districts and from
the class of agricultural labourers, in your case they are mostly inhabitants of
the town, and many of them are accustomed already to trade of some sort ?

No, we have very feu tradesmen ; indeed at the present time we have not one

tradesman on the premises ; they are all thieves. When I say we work our

•tradesmen, I will venture to say, speaking Avithin compass, that we never have

^hree at a time. During the whole time that the masons were on strike we

never had a mason, and we never had more than one carpenter at a time.

3643. How long does it require to instruct a thief in the trade of a carpenter
or a tailor ?

AVe never attempt it.

3044. Lord Steward.'] How did you contrive to build your chapel ?

We scolded them into it ; we had only one carpenter during that time, and
we had no mason ; the stones are beautifully polled, quite as well as in any
■building ; the man who polled the stones had never been so employed before,
he has got a situation now under the Corporation, and is one of the best stone
pollers in Bristol.

3t)45. What description of man was he?
A labouring man.

3646. What is polling a stone ?
Making one side of the stone smooth.

3647. Marquess of 6'«//A^Mrj/.] In this return of judicial statistics of 18(J1
•\\\w\\ 1 have in my hand, the profit of the Bristol Gaol is stated at 57/. IG*.
on the industrial labour r

That is merely on the oakum picking, on the oakum sold at the time.

(37. II.) u u3 3648- Do

342 MINUTES OF EVIDEXCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J -i Gardner, Esq. 3^4^- Do vou keep anv account of the profits ?
We do.

24111 April 1863.

3649. Can you put in such an account ?

I have nothing with me more than what your Lordship lias before 3'ou, and
you may depend that is correct. We have been going on oakum pickint; since
then ; that is the profit upon the oakum that was sold ; we may possibly have
eight or ten tons by us at present, and that would produce perhaps, 105 /. profit ;
we do not return the protits until it is really sold.

3().-")0. Vou stated, did you not, that the profits of one carpenter would main-
tain six prisoners ?

We do not show the jjrofits for work done in prison, such as building or
carpentering, or repairing the prison in any way; we do not show that as a
profit; if we did, it would be a large amount.

3651. Earl o^ Dudley.'] You consider, then, that you have a discretion to do
away with the sentence of hard labour, as passed by the Courts?

We do not do away with hard labour at all ; every work that we put the
prisoner to do is hard labour.

3652. I will take your own description ; under the eyes of the officers you get
a fair day's work from the man, or he is reported r

Yes, we do.

3653. A hard day's labour you cannot get from him?
I really think we do ; I am satisfied that we do.

3654. Then there is this difi'erence between the two terms ; your own words
■were " a fair day's work," whereas the sentence of the Court is " hard labour?"

I think that our fair day's work would be a hard day's work, from the fact of
their being watched, and their having no time for relaxation at all; on the female
side we have no tread wheel, and yet they arc sentenced in the same way.

3655. You have devoted yourself very much to the laborious part of the
system of the gaol, and not to the penal part of it, namely, the treadwheel ; you
told a noble Lord just now that if you had any tradesmen in gaol you made them
work at their trades, but that they would not do as much in the day as they
would if they were free men, out of gaol r

They would not.

36.5G. Tlierefore it is not a hard day's work ?
1 think it is for the time that they are at work.

3657. It is a compulsory day but not a hard day ?
Yes.

3658. With regard to a labourer who comes in, who is not capable of working
at any trade, you cumfiel him to do, first, the wheel labour, as long as it is w^anted
for the forcing up of water, and after that whatever you can set him to best r

Yes.

30,'i(). Do you consider that you get a hard day's work out of him r
Not harder than in the other case, because the treadwheel is not sufficiently
long; it is onlv an hour, perhaps half an liour; it is merely for the purpose of
pumping the Avater, and directly the cisterns are full the treadwheel is stopped;
we do not like to waste the water.

3(160. ^^"hat Avould be your objection to making the wheel grind your own
corn, and be productive in that way:

I do not think that it would pay ; it does not pay in any of the gaols. I only
go from what 1 have been told at Gloucester.

3661. You have stated distinctly, have you not, that your principle in the
Bristol gaol is to make as much as you can out of the labour of the prisoners to
keep down the expense.^

I do.

3662. Do you think, that in carrying that out which is a good principle per
se, you rre justified in ignoring the sentence of the law, which is hard labour:

I do

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 343

I do not think that it has ever struck the magistrates that we do so, in placing j j^ Gardner E^n
the prisoners to work at whatever they can wuvk at.

2,^6-;',. If you were asked the question, you would draw a distinction between "^^'^ -^P'''' '-^^'i-

hard labour and industrial occupation, would vou not?

Yes.

3664. Industrial occupation would he everything th;it they did in the way of
mat making and other trades; but h;ird labour must be either in the form of the
wheel or the crank, must it not ?

No ; there are many harder kinds of labour which you can introduce into a
gaol. I have some men at some very hard laljonr indeed, namely, laying down
four or five yards, and making the aspiialte on the premises. I think that is
exceedingly hard work. I see the men in a perspiration continually.

366.3. You have no power, have you, of compellinii' a man to do hard labour
if he is not wiUing to do it ?
But we have the treadwheel.

3666. But if a man says that he will only give you an unwilling day's work,
you cannot get a hard day's work from him 1
We cannot, but we punish him for not doing so.

3C67. In one uord, whatever your practice may be, the wheel or the crank is
the only compulsory hard labour?
That is all.

3668. Chairman.'] What is the dietary table which is in force in your gaol?
The ofKcial dietary.

3669. In fact, that which is recommended for adoption by the Secretary of
State ?

Yes.

3670. Is that, in j'our opinion, an adequate and satisfactory scale of diet?
I think that it is considerably too high.

3671. Would you state in which of the classes you consider it too high?
In all the classes with the exception of the tii'st seven days.

367-2. In the four subsequent stages do you think that it would be possible,-
without injury to the prisoners and at the same time with benefit to the system,
to reduce that diet r

Quite so.

3673, Would you reduce the quality or the quantity?
I would reduce them b(jth.

3674. Under that dietary the practice is that the prisoner should commence
with the' dietary the particular class to which he may happen to be sentenced, is
it not ?

Yes.

3675. Would it not, in your opinion, be desirable that an alteration should be
made in that respect, and that the diet should be progressive, each prisoner rising
as it were through the several stages of the diet, and whether he was sentenced for
four motiths or a year, passing through all of them witliout exception?

It would. I would just say that, with our present dietary, we weigh every
prisoner coming in and going out ; they increase in weight from 7 lbs. to 10 lbs.
and 10 lbs.

3676. Is that the case with prisoners of the smallest or the longest sentences r
All sentences.

3677. Is there not generally a falling off after the first month or so ?
Not at all ; they increase rapidly after the first month.

367S. Does the transition from gross iiitemperance and a very dissolute life
on the p;!rt of a prisoner when he is committed to prison, involve a necessity in
your opinion for a more liberal diet ?

(37.11.) uu4 Not

344 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

J. A. Gardner, Esq. Not at all ; the womeii at first get very thin ; they feel it very much indeed,
but we do not notice it in the men ; perliaps a girl may lose 14 or 15 lbs. in a
;:4ih April 18(13. month, but afterwards she gets stout rapidly.

3670. Is that falling- off in your opinion from any change in the diet itself, oi-
ls it from the strictness of the new prison discipline ?

No ; I think it is in consequence of their not being able to get their usual
drink, and until they get the better of the loss, they sink rapidly for a month.

3680. Will not the enforced temperance of the prison system sometimes have
a beneficial effect upon the lieallh of the i)risoner?
It will.

36S1. In vour opinion the Government dietary in the three last classes is ex-
cessive, both in quantity and in quality i
Yes.

3682. Lord Steivard.] Are you prepared to say to what extent you think that
the dietary might safely be reduced •

I cannot at this moment. I am drawing up a dietary for our magistrates to
place before the Secretary of State, and 1 think that there could be a great altera^
lion in the gruel and in the quantity of meat in the soup.

3683. Chairman.'] The Committee are therefore to understand tliat you con-
sider that the dietary is too high for the prisoners who are in confinement in.
Bristol gaol ?

J do.

3684. Would you apply that same observation to the prisoners of a gaol in
which the treadwheel was in force from six to eight hours a day ?

I certainly should.

3685. You consider that the addition of that form of hard labour would not
involve that addition of food which would be represented in those tables ?

Not at all ; when our treadwheel went all day we fed our prisoners pre-
cisely the same as wc feed them now, and they increased at the same rate as
they do now.

3686. Earl of Dudh'}/.] Up to what period did 3'ou continue to use the wheel
as a common means of punishment?

Up to two years ago.

3687. Did that lead, in a great measure, to greatly developing rupture ?
Not at all.

36S8. Should you say that half the men, according to the surgeon's report,
from your own experience, would be incapable of treadwheel labour either from a
disposition to or actually existing rupture .'

No ; we might not have more than one or two in the gaol unfit for hard labour
on that account ; we examine every man directly he is convicted, and 1 ask the
sursreon to aive me a certificate of all those that are unfit for labour.

368Q. Earl of Ronnie^.] Did you ever know a man ruptured on the wheel ?
Never.

3690. Lord Steward.} Have the recommitments diminished in number during
the last two years?

We seldom or never have recommitments unless they are professional thieves ;
others come in and have a look at ns and they get sick of the gaol, and we do
not sec them again.

3691. So that, in that respect, there is no very great difference in the last two
years as compared with former years?

Very little difference.

3(5()J. [Marquess of Sal/shi/ri/.'\ On comparison of the expenses of each pri-
soner in your gaol, and in the county gaol of (jlloiicestcr, I find that the average
expense of prisoners in your gaol is 3H. 8s. 8^/., and the average of the
Ciloncestershire County Gaol is merely 24/. 12.v. 10^/. ; how do you account for
that ditierence between 31/. H.v. 8d., and 24/. 12a-. \0d.}

Provisions

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 345

Provisions are perhaps dearer in Bristol than they can be bought for in J. A.Gardner, Esq.
Gloucestershire. It is from no o:her reason than the ditierence in the cost of ~ — T

provisions, excepting the staffof officers being larger in proportion than in o-aols ^"^ P" ^ ^'
of modern construction.

3693. The earnings again in the Gloucester Gaol, are 248/., whereas in the
Bristol County Gaol, they are only 57/. ?

They manufacture largely cloth sacking, and things of that sort at Gloucester;
we do not ; picking oakum is tlie principal remunerative labour we enforce, but
a large amount of other labour is performed.

3604. How is your prison kept ; is it by a borough rate ?
Yes ; by a borough rate.

369.5. Are the visiting magistrates appointed by the Crown ?
They are aj)pointed magistrates by the Lord Chancellor, and become visiting
justices in rotation.

3696. Are your borouth rates excessively high ?
They are supposed to be rather high.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.
Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next, One o'clock.

(37. 11.) X X

[ 347 ]

Die Martis, S8° Ajmlis 1863.

LORDS PRESENT

Duke of Richmond.
Lord Steward.
Earl of Carnarvon.
Earl of Romney.
Earl of DuciE.

Earl of Dudley.

Viscount EVERSLEY.

Lord WoDEHorsE.
Lord Wensleydale.
Lord Lyveden.

THE EARL OF CARNARVON in the Chair.

Evidence on
Prison Discipline.

WILLLTAM AUGUSTUS GUY, Esquire, m. b., is called in, and examined as

follows :

3697. I BELIEVE you are a physician, and Fellow of the College of Physicians ?
Yes, I am a Fellow of the London College of Physicians.

3698. I think you also exercise the medical superintendence of the Millbank
prison ?

I am the medical superintendent of Millbank prison.

3699. How long have you held that office ?
Nearly four years.

3700. "Who was your predecessor ?

Dr. Baly. *

3701. Were Dr. Ealy's duties confined to Millbank?

They were confined to Millbank as mine are, but he was consulted, as I am,
by the Directors of Convict Prisons upon questions relating to dietaries, or to the
health of the prisoners.

3702. 1 understand that your official duties confine you to Millbank, and do
not extend to Pentonville or any of the Government prisons ?

They are confined to Millbank, except that I should be consulted on any question
relating to convict prisons generally.

3703. During those four years the whole question of sanitary inquiry with
reference to prison discipline has been very much before you, lias it not ?

It has been constantly before me.

3704. Have you ever made any experiments on the subject?

I have made experiments and reports upon the dietaries and the health of the
prisoners ; indeed I make a report every month, because I see every prisoner in
the prison once a month, and make a monthly report of the state in which I find
the prison and the prisoners.

3705. In fact, you have considered the question of prison diet with regard both
to labour, and also with regard to the health of the prisoners ?

Yes, I may say both with regard to labour and to health.

37ori. Will you explain to the Comfnittee, in the first instance, the nature of
Millbank as a prison ?

Millbtiuk jirison is a dejiot prison. Prisoners whose sentences exceed three
years are sent to us from the county and borough gaols. They remain with us a

(37. 12.) X X 2 certain

W, A, Gxuj, Esq.,
M. ii.

28th April 1863.

348 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEVOUE THE

/F. A. Guij, Esq., certain time, and are then sent by us to tlie several convict establishments, Port-

M.ii. land, Portsmouth, Chatham, Dartmoor, Woking, and in the case of women to

„Q,i \~T or Brixton, and now to Parkhurst in the Isle of Wieht, according- to the state in

_______ whicn we rmd them. Ihe robust men are sent to Portland; the less robust

men, who are capable of a full day's labour, to Chatham and Portsmouth ; the
invalids that are still capable of some labour to Dartmoor; and the invalids' that
are bedridden, or who would be confined to the infirmary, are sent to Wokino-

3707. During the earlier portion of their confinement in Millbank, are tlie
prit^oners kept in separate confinement ?

Yes, they are kept in separate confinement for about five months.

3708. Therefore I presume that a prisoner at Millbank during those first five
months of his imprisonment may be compared in condition and general circum-
stances to a prisoner who is sentenced for tlie longer periods of sentence in the
county and borough gaols ?

Yes, 1 think the two may be fairly compared ; not exactly, but fairly.

370Q. What is the length of the period during which the prisoners are confined
at Millbank ?

It viirics according to the state of the prisons which are to receive them, and
according to the orders that we get to send tiiem away, whether to Portland,
Chatham or Portsmouth ; the theory is that M'e keep them about nine months,
the first seven months or so, in separation, and after that in association ; but
it does not really amount to nine months ; very often, at certain periods, it
amounts only to seven months, and at certain other periods only to fiive months,
or even less.

3710. I believe that you are acquainted with the return which wns printed by
order of the House of Commons in 1857, with regard to the dietary of con-
victs ?

Yes, I am acquainted with it, and have carefully examined it, and am prepared
to give the general results of the dietaries which it contains, if the Committee
desire it.

371 1 . Will you be good enough tojiive the Committee the result of your expe-
rience ac(|uired at IMillbank during the four years tliat you have had a knowledge
of the treatment which is adopted there ?

The information obtained at Millbank is extremely valuable. Your Lordships
are aAvare that in the S]iririg of 1823 there broke out an epiilemic of scurvy and
dysentery at Millbank, one of the most severe epidemics which ever scourged
any prison either at home or abroad, and the history of that ei)idemic
is very important as bearing upon the question of what would be a snfiicient
dietary. The dietary in 1822, prior to the breaking out of this epidemic, con-
sisted of these elements — 1C8 ounces of bread jier week, 24 ounces of boiled
beef, and 112 ounces of potatoes, making a total ot solid food of 304 ounces
per week, to Avhich there was added eight pints of broth or soup, and 14 ])iiits of
gruel or porridge. The medical superintendent of that date reported that the
diet was too good for the prisoners, and said that they weie sufiering from
diseases ]iroduced by over-feeding, and he made suggestions for a reduction
of the dietary ; but the then Committee of the ])rison, who thought themselves
wiser than he, had their own scheme, which consisted in retaining the IGS ounces
of bread, but striking ofl' the meat and the potatoes, increasing the eight pints of
broth or SOU]) to 14 ])ints, and dimini'-hing the gruel or porridge fnim 14 pints
down io 7 pints. '1 liev struck ctl' all the meat and all the potatoes, and substituted
a very weakbrfith — it did not deserve the name of soup — one ox-head distributed
over 100 rations, and that one oxhead sometimes distributed over a hirger
number than the 100. The result of that reduction of tliet uas the outl)reak of
scurvy and dysentery in the following year. Some symptoms of scurvy appeared
in the aulumn of the year in which the diet was reduced ; and in the sjmng
of the following year, the two diseases, scurvy and dysentery, developed tlieni-
selvts under a very marked form indeed.

3712. With reference to that statement, are you aware whether it was ])roved
at the lime, or has it since been proved to your satisfaction, that tliat j)ortion of
the reduction which was so injurious, and which led to the outbreak of tiie scurvy,
was the absence of the vegetable element, or the absence of the meat element ?

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE.

349

My impression is, and T can mention to your Lordships the ground of that IF. A. Guy, Esq.,
impiession, that it was not simply the reduction in the quantity cf food, con- m. b.

siderable as it was, but it was the total omission of the potato element in the diet, ^g^^j^ ApriFiSn^.

3713. You would lay more stress upon the absence of the potato element than
you would upon the absence of meat or bread ?

I should.

3714. Was that the opinion of Dr. Baly?

It was his very decided opinion ; and he published some valuable essays, in
which he stated his reasons for entertaining- that opinion.

37 15. Was he the medical superintendent at the period of the outbreak ?

No ; he was medical superintendent for about 1 9 years prior to ray appoint-
ment, but not at that time ; but he went back to the facts of that outbreak, and
added fresh facts of his own, obtained from other sources.

3716- Had the prisoners suB'ered previously to 1822, from the effect of the
excessive diet ?

Tbe medical superintendent of that date thought that they had, and leportecj
accordingly, that the dietary was then excessive ; that was his opinion.

3717. Earl of Ixomnei/.'] Do you mean that it was thought excessive for health
generally, or excessive considering they were prisoners undergoing punishment }

Excessive for their health as prisoners, under all the circumstances of the case ;
he found, as he thought, that they were plethoric and full of blood, and suffering
from diseases that showed over-feeding.

3718. Chair7n(i7i.] Is it not, however, the case that the site of Mill bank as a
prison is supposed to be unhealthy, and that the ordinary amount of food which
would bo satisfactory in any other prison is considered to be below the requisite
standard there ?

Formerly there was reason to believe that Millbank was unhealthy ; but now, I
speak from my own intimate knowledge of the prison, and 1 also express the
opinion of the resident surgeon, who is a most competent person to form an
opinion upon that subject, that that state of things has passed away, and that Mill-
bank is no longer an unhealthy site.

3719. What is the difference between the present diet at Millbank, and the
diet as amended by the (Jommittee in 1822?

The present diet of Millbank is only less by three ounces of food per week than
the diet complained of as being excessive, but it is greatly in excess of the reduced
diet which brought on the scurvy and dysentery.

3720. When was the diet raised ?

After 1823 the diet was raised ; they raised it immediately ; medical men were
called in, in consequence of the outbreak of those diseases ; they took the requisite
steps for the treatment of those diseases, and then recommended an improved
dietary ; which improved dietary, with alterations, which I could point out, has
continued in existence up to the present time.

3721. In your opinion, as founded upon the experience of the medical super-
intendent of that day, and the facts which have come to your knowledge since,
should you say that the dietary of 1822, previous to any alteration, was in
excess ?

I think it was in excess.

3722. And the present diet in Millbank, as I understand from your further
evidence, falls short of that diet which you believe to have been in excess only by
three ounces r

Only by three ounces per week.

3723. Ihc diet of Class 4 or Class 5, in the county and borough gaols, cor-
responds pretty nearly, does it not, with the diet which is in force now in MjII-
bank ?

The dietary for Class 5 corresponds pretty nearly with it. The quantity of
bread and the quantity of potatoes is the same in the two diets.

3724. Assuming therefore, generally, a correspondence between, the diet of
Class 4 and Class 5, in the county prisons, with the diet now given at JNlillbank,

(37. 12.) X X 3 would

S50 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

W. A. Guy, Esq., •would not the inference from those facts be, that the diet in Classes 4 and 5,
' in the county and borough prisons, is somewhat in excess of that which is
28th April 1863. necessary ?
I think that a fair inference.

3725. Earl of RomiicyJ] What are the points of reduction in those three ounces
that you spoko of, and in what items r

The bread in 1822 was larger in quantity than the bread in 1863, at the present
date; it was then 168 ounces; it is now 154 ounces of bread in a week. The
meat, which was then 24 ounces, is now 35 ounces. The potatoes, which were
then 1 12 ounces, are now 1 12 ounces ; so that the difference consists in the reduc-
tion of the bread element, and an increase of the meat element, and the dietary
at present is therefore somewhat stronger than the dietary of that time. But
putting all the solid elements of the diet together, the scale which is now thought
necissary fells short of t!;e old dietary which Avas thought excessive by only three
ounces.

3726. The improved quality quite makes up for the deficient three ounces in
guantity ?

Yes, quite so ; so that the present diet is more liberal than that which was then
esteemed excessive.

3727. Cltairman.'] You stated that that dietary, generally and roughly, cor-
responded with the dietary of Class 5 in the county and borough prisons; will you
be good enough to compare Class 5 with the present Millbank dietary ?

I will do so in one moment; but perhaps, in the meantime, your Lordships will
allow me to state more distinctly than I have already done, that Dr. Baly
devoted a great deal of attention to the question of the necessity of the potato
eleuieut in the dietary ; and I M'ould venture to state to your Lordships, that there
is no fact in relation to diet better established than the necessity of the potato
element, or some equivalent vegetable element, exisiing in all diets. Then, before
I })roceed to make the comparison wliieh your Lordships desire, perhaps you will
allow me further to interpolate two matters of considerable importance, which will
make the whole subject of tlie diet of prisons more distinct and clear. The first
is some very important evidence which exists, that it is not essential to the health
of a prisoner that there should be any meat at all in his diet. In the evidence
laid l)efore tlie Commission in 1823, there is a very inq^ortant statement made on
the authority of the Governor of Devizes House of Correction. I have quoted
the facts at length in the evidence given before the present Royal Commission on
Penal Servitude, before which I had occasion to appear: The dietary of the
Devizes House of Correction consisted of 196 ounces of bread per week, 112
ounces of potatoes, or a pound a day, giving a total of solids of 308 ounces in
the week ; and there was only in addition to that, seven pints of gruel ; and yet
it resulted from actual weighings, made with great care, that the prisoners under
this diet gained in weight very largely ; and the governor states, in the most
distinct terms, that the dietary agreed well with the prisoners, and that no loss of
strength, was noticed; that no prisoners could be more healthy; and he added,
that " there is not now, nor has there been, any case of scurvy;" that was in
1823 ; that was the result with regard to prisoners with various sentences, long
and short, who were weighed, and found to have gained weight upon that diet.

3728. Therefore, in your opinion, it would be quite jiossible, would it not, to
construct a dietary of a farinaceous and vegetable kind, which should keep up the
strength of the prisoners without the introduction of any animal food ?

Quite possible.

3729. And it would be ])ossible upon that dietary to impose u])on the prisoners
the 8 or 10 hours' work wliicli the Legislature sanctioned in the original Gaol Act ?

I think so. I have reason to believe that many of the prisoners that were put
upon this diet, and thus weighed ami reported upon, must have been doing a good
deal of work in the prison; it is not likely that tiiey should all have been idle ; it
is not distinctly stated what their employment was, but I have little doubt that
many of them were doing a full amount of work.

3730. The Committee have had it stated in evidence that the two great ele-
ments in the composition of diet being a certain proportion of carbon and a certain

proportion

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 35l

proportion of nitrogen, it is quite possible, by a combination of tlie constituent W.A.Gvy, Esq.,

parts of the diet, to find a substitute for tliat amount of nitrogen which exists in **. b.

most of the prison dietaries in the form of meat in such food as miik and cheese, ^Sth A r"l iSG?

and I thin]-: onions and peas ; is that your opinion also ?

Ciuite so; there is no doubt upon that point.

3731. Carrying- tJiat argument one step further, it has also been stated in evi-
dence that the imposition of a certain amount of labour is such a vital stimulant
added to the system, that it would represent a ceriain pro])()rtion of nitrogen, and,
consequently, that a certain proportion of labour might take the place of a certain
amount of nitrogen as at present administered in gaols; is that your opinion also?

The exercise would, of course, tend to the developnunt of the fleshy jiarts of
the bodyAvkich abound in nitrogen, and in that way labour might become in some
sense a source of nutrition to the body.

3732. And that, consequently, by a due and scientific combination of nitro-
genous food, such as milk and cheese, with the other kinds of food, and by the
infliction of a certain amount of hard labour, you might be able to eliminate to a
very great extent, if not completely, the element of meat, without weakening the
prisoner unduly or impairing his health ?

I think so.

37:^3. Are the Committee to understand from these answers that in obtaining
this substitute for the nitrogenous element in food by means of hard labour, the
result would be due to the greater facility in assimilating the food which would
be jiroduccd by the vital stimulant which the hard labour would afford, or that it
would be due to the exercise, such as stone-breaking, or some exercise of that
sort carried on in the open air ?

I think that the exercise which a man takes, whether you call it hard labour
or any other labour, tends to promote the assimilation of that food which he
eats, whatever it may be, and that over and above that, the fleshy parts of the
body are more completely built up in the man who labours, be it hard labour or be
it less bard labour. But wherever there is hard labour, you must always take care
tihat there is abundant food.

3734. But whether you look at the matter scientifically, or whether you look
at it with regard to your own experience in INIillbank, you do believe that a
dietary may be constructed upon the farinaceous and vegetable princijile, ca])able of
supporting the health of the prisoners under that amount of hard labour which it
is reasonable to contemplate as being inflicted in any prison?

Yes ; of coin-se I mean that tlie food should be projiortioned to the amount of
labour wiiicli the prisoner has to do ; but that the labour itself is wholesome, and
tends to promote the due assimilation of that food which he does take.

3735. Earl of Romney.'] You suppose the work to be performed under a healthy-
condition of the atmosphere 1

Yes ; it is better, of course, in the open air than under shelter.

373§. Chairman.'] Medically speaking, is it not injurious to the health that
the prisoners should be shut up for many hours in the day together without any
hard labour?

Yes, 1 think it is injurious to the health.

3737. Earl Dude.'] Will the want of sufficient labour produce a lower tone of
vitality amongst the prisoners ?

Yes, it certainly does do so in those who are not prisoners ; the vitalitv of a
printer or a tailor is not equal to the vitality of the man w ho works out of doors.

3738. Does that lower amount of vitality prevent them assimilating their food
in sufficient measure ?

' No doubt it does interfere with the due assimilation of the food.

3739. Under tliose circumstances, does the prisoner require more food when he
assimilates his food badly ?

I do not think he requires more ; but he will somehow contrive to use up

more, not wholesomely, or to his own advantage ; but he will often eat more than

(37. 12.) X X 4 his

352 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

jr. A. Guy, Esq., his neighbour who is doing more wliolesomc work ; I do not think he wants it,
'"•''• but he does eat it.

?8th April 1863. 3740. It woukl be Uke a bad grate, whicli does not consume the fuel properly,
uoidd it not '?
Yes.

3741. Earl Eomnei/.] Very often he takes it to his own injury?

Yes.

3742. Chairman.] And, consequently, there is a waste of food ?
Yes, there is a waste of food.

3743. It has been stated by some witnesses to tliis Commiitee, that the mere
effect of imprisonment upon a man is to involve such an amount of depression as
can only be discharged Ijy a great increase of food ; is this a fact which has been
at all verified oy medical observatiou ?

It is not a fact, but an opinion, and it is an opinion which I myself do not
entertain ; I think that if you shut men up, and they lead sedentary lives, it is
better that they should eat less food than those who are not so shut up, and who
work harder.

3744. And you would apply that to the uneducated class, such as the majority
of the prisoners are, as well as to the more educated men ?

Yes, certainly.

3745. Is the increase or loss of weight in itself a certain evidence of the increase
or loss of physical health ?

It is not a certain evidence; it is naturally adopted as a test of a sufficient
dietary, but it is not a satisfactory test ; it has the advantage of being stated
in numbers, and there is a great deal in that, but it cannot be taken by itself.
Per]ia])S with regard to the subject of the possibility of establishing a vege-
table diet, the Comaiittee might wish that I .should state another fact or two
bearing upon that subject. My respected predecessor, Dr. Baly, published a
paper hi one of the medical journals, in 1 843, on the prevention of scurvy, in which
he expresses himself as follows : " There are many prisons," he says, " in which
the diet, from its unvaried character, and the absence of animal food as well as
o-reen vegetables, is apparently most inadequate to the maintenance of health, and
where, nevertheless, from its containing abundance of potatoes, scurvy is not pro-
duced. Stafford county gaol may be taken as an example. In this prison the
weekly allowance of food consists of 12i ])ounds of bread, 21 pints of gruel, seven
pounds of potatoes, and a sufficient quantity of salt. Neither meat nor soup
is tasted by the prisoners, yet scurvy does not occur, I have recently had the
opportunity of examining 70 prisoners who had been confined in Stafford gaol
for periods varying from three to six months, and I could not find one who pre-
sented any trace of scorbutic disease." That would be a second case in point
similar to the one which I have already brought forward. Then, to make this part
of the subject comidete, I may state, that we have in Millbank a penal class diet
from which the element of meat is entirely excluded, and an ill-conducted pri-
soner will continue upon that diet for nine or ten or more months, and even as
mauv as IS months, and yet enjoy very good health.

374('). Without any variation of meat ?

"Without any meat at all ; I must modify that statement so far as to say, that
if in that time they happen to fiill ill, which they rarely do, not more than the
other class of prisoners, thev would come under medical treatment, and their diet
might be improved for a time, and they might perhaps get a little meat.

3747. Can you give the Committee any table of that penal class diet?

Y"es, I can ; our penal class diet consists of 84 ounces of bread per week, 70
ounces' of Indian meal, 5G of potatoes, 70 of oatmeal, and iOh pints of milk ; those
are the elements of it ; there is no meat allowed.

3748. Are the Committee to understand that upon that dietary prisoners are

somotiuies confined and fed for 10, 12, and even 18 months, without any injury to

their health 'i

Without any noticeable injury to their health.

3749. Would

SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 353

3749. "\A"oulfl there be any objection, in your opinion, practically to adopting TT. A. Guy, Esq.,

such a dietary as that for i)ri<oner:s sentenced to one year's imprisonment in the "'• ^'

county and borougli prisons ? ' „8th k^\ ,863.

I think none.

37.10. Are the men who fall under this penal class diet worked upon any hard
labour ?

■ No ; on the contrary, they are '^liut up in their cells as part of their punishment,
and are not ])ut to any labour except picking coir. Occasionally, however, wiien
they are taking their hour's exercise, they are i)ut upon the pump for 20 minutes
or so.

3751. Supposing you had tlie labour of tlie treadwlieel, or the crank, or shot
drill, or picking oakum, for those prisoners who are confined ujjon this penal class
diet, "ould you consider it to be sufficient ?

I think so.

3752. ^Vould you see any objection to a man being worked for eight hours upon
the trcadwheel on that dietary, subject to the ordinary relief of one-third of each
hour:

I see no objection to that,

3"53- I" ^^ct, the Committee ^^•ould gather from that statement that, in vour
opinion, meat is not at all an essential element in the dietaiy of prisoners, even for
sentences as long as 18 rnonths or two years ?

I must speak a little doubtfully upon this point, because I have no direct
experience to guide me, but 1 should say that it would be quite possible to confine
prisoners for such a period, and give them the labour to do which is usually
called hard labour, and yet that they would retain their health with that diet ; but
I have not sufficient facts to guide me, and I must state that only as an opinion.

3754. Do you state that as an opinion only up to 12 months, or do you state
that as a fact which is known to your experience ?

I sh uld think it quite possible to go beyond 12 months, but I should be sorry to
hazard a strong opinion extending beyond that.

37.55. Lord Li/veden.'] Has it no effect upon their spirits, producing a reaction
upon their health ?

I think none at all. Those men who are put upon the penal class diet are very
troublesome men, and men who cannot be said ever to be in low spirits; they are
even ingenious! v troublesome.

»"

3756. Then you do not think that it deteriorates the; tone of their mind r
,1 do not think it does.

37.t7. Earl oi Ducic] Do the prisoners, on first coming into the prison, find the
jirison diet so difierent from that, which they use in ordinary life that it has any
effect upon them ?

None Avhatever ; they often ask for more bread, but it is simply Ijccause they
must ask for something, and they are anxious to be making some request to the
medical officer.

37.58. Does being de))rived of the alcoholic stimulants which they are accus-
tomed to, have any eff'ect upon them ?

Not perceptibly. Cases of defirivm tremens produced by the disuse of alcoholic
stimulants are very rare with us indeed. I have seen but one or two cases in four
years. I have not seen a case noAv for upAvards of two years.

37.59. Is it your impression that the health of the prisoners is lietter on your
present prison diet than it is ordinarily out of doors?

I cannot, measure the health of the prisoriers against the health of the same
class out of doors with any accuracy ; bui I can measure the mortality.

3760. But does their condition improve generally in prison ?

Their condition, 1 should say, does improve in ]irison, that is the impression on
my mind ; and when 1 have weighed them, they having the ordinary prison diet
which I mentioned first, 1 have found tliem, on tlie whole, disposed to gain Mcight,
both those that arc em])loycd upon tlie harder labour of mat-making, and tliose
that are emphiyed ujion the lighter labour of tailoiing; they both "gain weight
under our ])resent dietary. Prisoners in the penal class, both men and women,
also retain their weight on the penal class diet of which I have just sjioken.

(37. 12.) V Y 3761. Have

354 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

W. A. Guy, Esq., 3761 . Have you ever met with cases wliere the lowest grade of prison diet has

'"• ^' had a bad effect upon the prisoners ?

28th jVpriT iSe-i ^"^' lo^'est diet consists of bread and water. It is continued for three days, or

' sometimes longer. This bread and water diet is a special punishment diet, which

cannot be continued with safety very long w"ith men and women M"ho are already
prisoners. I think it could not be continued above a fortnight or three weeks,
without some eti'ect being produced upon the health ; but then, it must be
remembered, that they are otherwise under punishment.

3762. You state that they do thrive upon the penal diet ?

Yes, they thrive upon it, and they preier it to the monotonous ordinary diet of
the prison, in which there are five ounces of boiled beef weighed after cooking, with
the broth of the meat, every day, without exception ; they prefer the penal class
diet to that ; and although the penal claas diet, as the name implies, was intended
to be a punishment, 1 know that it is not a punishment ; they get a very good
mess of oatmeal and milk in the morning, and of Indian corn meal and milk at
dinner.

3763. ("an tlie use of Indian corn meal be introduced to a greater extent than
it is at present ?

It is a very wholesome meal, and it may be used more largely than it is at
present.

3764. Are you acquainted with the dietary of the military prisons ?

The military prisons have, I think, no meat in their diet, except on the
Sunday, in the case of prisoners in the first class. I do not say that froju my
OAvn knowledge of military prisons, but I gather it from the report of 1857. I
believe Inoian meal to be a very wiiolesonie article of diet ; it contains more nitro-
o-en than wheaten Hour does, and it abounds in oil.

3765. It is more economical, is it not, than any other form of meal ?

Yes ; I believe it is the most economical meal we have ; oatmeal possibly may
be as economical ; and it has more nitrogen than wheaten flour. At the present
time the prices of Indian meal and oatmeal are exactly the same in Millbank.

3766. Does it produce any diseases at all ?
None that I am aware of.

3767. Earl of Romnei/.] You stated a short time ago tliat you could measure
the mortality of the prisoners against the mortality of persons out of doors ; what
is the result of that ?

Tiie result of that is that the male prisoners are more healthy than the inhabi-
tants of those districts where they are likely to be found in London ; their mor-
tality is mere favourable than that of the corresponding class out of doors. The
mortality of the women is a little less favourable, but not much.

3768. Lord IFodchoiise.'] I do not understand you to recommend this farina-
ceous diet upon the ground that it is more distasteful to the prisoners, but because
it is more economical, and more healthy ?

Quite so ; it is equally healthy. I do not say that meat is unhealthy, but this
farinaceous diet is quite healthy,

3709. The principal advantage would be its economy, would it not?
Yes, its principal advantage would be its economy. 1 do not know that tliere
would be any other advantage.

^,770. Lord Lyveden.l Its being distasteful to the prisoners is an advantage, is
it not ?

That depends upon the way in which you regard tlie punishment, whether the
intention is to be always punishing a prisoner through his diet.

3771. Lord Wcnski/dale.'] Did I correctly understand you to state that the
prisoners like this penal diet better than the ordinary diet in which meat is intro-
duced ?

They like it better than the ordinary prison diet. The ordinary prison diet is
very monotonous ; five ounces of boiled beef every day is very monotonous.

3772. Chairman.] I understand that they like it, not because they wish to give
the preference to vegetable food over animal food, but because in the penal class
diet there is a greater variety than there is in the ordinary dietary ?

There is not a greater variety, but I think it is less distasteful. The same meat

day

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 355

day bv day is more distasteful than the same weiglit of potatoes, porridge, and ^f-'- A. Ouy, Esq.,
Indian meal ])U(lding day liy day. w-n-

3773. Are there medical reasons against making the diet monotonous ? 28th April 1863.
r think that tijcre are reasons medically against making it so monotonous as

our diet is. We find that the l)est prisoners, and those that least complain, after
a time lose their appetite, and they have a distaste for their food after some weeks
or months of tliat monotonous diet day by day, and they ask to be put off their
meat. I do not mean the worst class of prisoners, but those who are not given to
complaining. And we do put them off for a little while ; we give them rice puddino-
for a i'ew days, and then we put them back again. That is frequently occurrino-.

3774. The absence of hard labour would probably have a tendency to increase
that sense of monotony, would it not?

It would have a tendency to increase that monotony; you add the oreater
monotony of mind to the monotony of diet,

3775- Therefore, in that point of view, the loss of hard labour would be me-
dically an evil ?

Yes, it would be medically an evil ; but at the same time we get a good deal of
hard work done in the prison.

3776. Lord Wodthoiise.'] Do you think tliat it would be desirable to alter the
diet after a certain period in all cases ; say after two or three months ?-

I should not alter the diet so soon as that.

3777. How soon should you think it desirable, as a general rule, to change the
diet, assuming the prisoners to remain in health?

I do not think ihat there is any necessity for the change at all, if they are in
health ; they may go on for months, or even years, together, with the same diet,
if they continue in health.

3778. You do not think, therefore, that there would be any necessity for par-
ticular classes of diet, being what may be called better diet, as the prisoner
remains longer in prison ?

I am doubtful upon that point. I know that it is the general opinion of medical
men ; and that it was the opinion of my predecessor, Dr. Baly, for which I have
a great respect, that it is the tendency of confinement to lower the tone and vigour
of the prisoner, so that he wants more food. I am not satisfied upon that point,
but it must be a matter of opinion ; it is not ascertainable by any experiments
that I can make.

3779. Chatrmau.'] In 1856, I find that the diet in the military prisons was di-
vided into two classes ; the ordinary diet included, for breakfast, S ounces oi oatmeal,
and for dinner 9 ounces of Indian meal, and for supper 8 ounces of bread, with half
a pint of milk to each meal. That was for periods of confinement below 84 days;
and after 84 days tjie prisoners had for breakfast 10 ounces of oatmeal instead of
eight, 12 ounces of Indian meal instead of nine, 8 ounces of bread (the same,) and
half a pint of milk ; would that, in your opinion, speaking generally, be a suffi
cient diet ?

It would be sufficient, I think, in quantity, but then it lacks the potato
element ;■ the ])otato element should be in it.

3780. With the addition of the potato element you would not be afraid of such
a diet ?

I should not.

3781. I find that the diet which existed in 1856 has been altered in 1861, in
the following manner. The ordinary diet for prisoners confined for less than 56
days' confinement, instead of 84 days, which was the original term, is as follows : —
Breakfast, eight ounces of oatmeal and half a jiint of milk ; dinner, nine ounces of
Indian meal and half a pint of milk ; supper, eight ounces of bread and half a pint
of milk. Ihat would corresjiond i)retty nearly with the ordinary first class diet
which I j)ieviously read out under the old scale, vvith this exception, that it is for
a shorter period. The second class has been materially altered. On four days of
the week, 10 ounces of oatmeal for breakfast, 12 ounces of Indian meal for dinner,
ei^iht ounces of bread for supper, with half a pint of milk to each meal ; but on
the three other days of the week, ^^unday, Tuesday, and Thursday, at breakfast
eight ounces of oatmeal and half a pint of milk ; at dinner, eight ounces of beef,
■without bone, before cooking ; two pounds of potatoes, or eigh't ounces of bread ;

(37. 12.) Y Y 2 one

356 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

W. A. Guy, Esq , one pint of soup, thickened with one ounce of oatmeal and two cunces of vege-

^^•^- tables jier man, seasoned with pepper and salt; and at supper, eight ounces of

28ih Aoril ifie-? hread, and half a pint of milk. In your opinion, docs that seem to be a desirable

change r

I think that the quantities are rather large ; it seems to me to be an excessive
diet, if I follow your Lordship's reading of it correctly.

37S2. Is not the eight ounces of beef, with the pint of soup, which, of course,
contains a certain portion of meat, a very large allowance of animal food to give at
any one time ?

I think it is.

3783. Would you consider that the former diet was sufficient, without the addi-
tion of those eight ounces of beef and the pint of soup ?

I should think it sufficient, but I sliould require tlial there should be some of the
potato element in it.

37 S4. Assuming always that the vegetable element was introduced?
Yes, I think so.

3785. You stated in the earlier part of your evidence that experiments had
been made under your observation at Millbank ; would you be good enough to
inform the Committee what was the nature of those experiments of yours ?

I took 25 men, who were mat-making, which is the hardest labour that the men
have to do in tiicir cells at Millbank, and I took 25 who were employed as tailors;
they both lived in the same way, and had the same ordinary diet. The result of
the experiments thus made, by repeated Aveighings, week by week, was tiiat,
although there were some strange differences and strange anomalies in the weights
week by week, the general result, in both cases, was an increase of weight, the
tailors ffaininff more than tlie mat-makers did. But there was no regular order as
to gaining and losing ; the mat-makers, for instance, might gain one week, and
the tailors might lose that same week, and the mat-makers might lose the next
week, and the tailors might gain ; showing that these weighing experiments,
although they are valuable, are not conclusive, and that it would be necessary, in
order to get conclusive experiments, to repeat theui very frequently, and to get at
the causes of those variations from week to week.

3786. What would be the number of the experiments which you would desire to
institute in order to come to some satisfactory basis upon which a scientific prison
diet could be constructed ?

I could answer that question more satisftctorily if the Committee will allow me to
refer to the Pentonville experiments. When Pentonville was first opened, experi-
ments were made under a committee consisting of Sir Benjamin Brodie, Dr. Fer-
guson and Dr. Owen Rees, all of them eminent and highly competent persons.
They made three preliminary experiments, in which they found that a great number
of prisoners lost weight, and then they made a fourth experiment, in which they
gave these articles of diet. They gave 112 ounces of bread per week (which would
be IG ounces or 1 pound per day), 28 ounces of meat, 1 1 2 ounces of potatoes, 3^ pints
of soup, 7 iiints of gruel, 51 pints of cocoa, 14 ounces of milk and 1 .1 ouncesof mo-
lasses. Those are the elements of the diet as given by them ; arid they found that,
under this diet, 33 in 100 remained stationary, and neither gained nor lost weight;
that 45 in 100 gained weight ; that 22 in 100 lost weight ; and they found that
those who gained, gained more than those who lost; in the proportion of 1-55
to 1 50: the diffennce is very slight; however, those vvho gained, gained rather
more than those Mho lost lost. I think tliat had I been making that experiment
myself 1 should have been satisfied with this result, because I should not have
expected, under any diet, that then- should not have been a certain number who
would lose weight. JSucli is the result of my recent experience in weighing pri-
soners at INIillbank. However, the experimenters did not take that view of the
matter, and then they proceeded to another experiment; they added on 4 oz. of
bread per diem, or 28 oz. per week, leaving all the other elements of the diet the
same as before ; and then they found tliat 25 per cent, remained stationary (ratlicr
fewer than in the other experiment), 59 percent, gained, being more than in the
previous experiment, and 1 6 per cent, lost ; those who gained, gained I '84 lbs., and
those who lost, losi 1 "58 llis ; thus, again, those who gained, gained more than those
■who lost lost; and with that experiment they were satisfied. I feel obliged to
state here, as I did before the Royal Commission, that I am not satisfied with

the

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 357

the issue of those experiments ; I am not certain that the first \veighing in ^vhich IV. A. Guy, Esq.,
the allowance of bread was 16 ounces per diem was not satisfactory, I should have ^" ^•

thought it so myself, but having added on four ounces of bread per diem, sSih April 1863.

or 28 ounces per week, and getting results so little more favourable than the

former ones, I certainly should have deemed it necessary to experiment with quan-
tities between the 10 ounces and the 20 ounces. This seems to me to be the
defect in tliose experiments; and I mention it because great stress has been laid
upon them, and they have been thought more conclusive than they seem to my
mind to be.

3787. Is not the class from which the larger proportion of prisoners are taken
a very depraved class morally, and a very weakly class physicall}', and would it
not consequently be very difficult to feed those men up to sucii a point as that
they would gain in weight rather than remain stationary ?

I think that we need not take into account their moral or physical state, because
the same result I think m ould happen with ])eople out of doors ; taking the
average of people out of doors, a similar result would happen. In all weighings
under all diets, some would be losing, and some would be gaining; but if you got
such a result as was obtained in the fourth experiment at Pentonville, you would
probably feel satisfied with it ; and therefore I wish to express my opinion to the
Committee that there is good ground fir causing experiments to be made with one
pound of bread per diem, and one pound of potatoes per diem, as a starting i)oint,
varying the quantities of meat, of soup, and of gruel ; and I would suggest that in
such experiments the l)rcad should be brown bread, as it is more nutritions, and
more economical. But whether tiie bread be white or brown, exptriments are
required which should take as their basis one pound of bread per diem, and one
pound of potatoes per diem, and should vary the other elements of diet until a
satisfactory result Avere obtained.

3788. Earl of Romney.'\ Why would you prefer brown bread?

The only bread used in prisons should, I think, be brown bread, partly because
it is more nutritious, and contains more of the muscle-making element in it (the
nitrogen which has been spoken of) than white bread does ; and another reason
is that if it were desired, the prisoners could grind iheir own flour, and the bread
could be made within the prison, as is now frequently the case.

3789. Chairman.^ Is there any objection to using all that there is in the
wheat ?

I think not ; but that must be a matter of experiment. If it were found that
by continuing the brown bread for a long time diarrhoea was occasioned, it
might become necessary to substitute white bread on certain days of the week,
but brown bread should be used as much as possible ; I know that there are
prisons in which they use it, and 1 do not hear that the prisoners suffer from
diarrhoea ; that is the only thing to be feared.

3790. \A'e have already had it in evidence that the white bread is the most
nutritious ; you are probably not of that opinion ?

I think that that is not quite correct. I think I can explain how it happens
that you have had that in evidence. If we take the grain as it is, and grind it
into flour, we get a certain quantity of the outer husk of the grain, which is
perhaps not very nutritious, and that makes a coarser bran ; then after that, you
come to a yellow substance which is a part of the solid grain, and which contains
a great quantity of nitrogen, more than the white inner portion does ; and if you
separate the outer portion which is not nutritious, and leave the other, you get
far more nutritious flour than you would if you took only the inner white portion.
The reason why the inner white portion is taken, and the outer yellow portion
rejected, is partly that in the ordinary mode of making bread by fermentation,
all but the very best qualities of flour change colour, through that outer portion
getting discoloured. Under the new system of making the aerated bread, no
discolouration takes place even with the worst kinds of floiir; and therefore, if it
were necessary, that system might be adopted.

3791. Lord Wodchouse.'] Is there not, in fact, very great diff'erence of opinion
amongst |)ersons, whose authority is good, as to which is the most nutritious, white
or brown bread ?

I do not think there would be any difference of opinion, if it were put in the
^,37. 12.) Y y 3 way

358 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

JV. A. Guy, Esq., way ill -which I now put it ; if you were to decorticate the wheat (to use a
^^' ""' technical term), and take off the outer husk entirely, and leave tlie compact
28th April 1863. inner grain, antl grind up the whole of that qrain, the yellow outer ])ortion and
the white inner portion, you would find that that taken' altogether is more nutri-
tious than if you rejected the yellow portion, and took the wiiite inner portion
only. I think that will ex])lain the ?ource of the difterence.

3792. Earl of Dudley.'] That would be so, except for the discolouration, wdiich
in the old system of making bread always was the result ?
Yes, and is the result now, as bread is commonly made.

379.3- How much falling off in the weight should vou say that a prisoner is*
capable of, before any damage was done to ids health ?

Takint^ the ubole body of prisoners together, I should not like to see in
them any material falling oti' in weight. I should be walchful as a medical
man, if 1 saw that there \\as any material falling off in weight — say tuo pounds or
three pounds a man — but I should be A'ery glad to see some of them lose a great
deal of weight ; they would be all the healthier for it. Manv men come into
prison who have led idle and reckless lives, and have eaten and drunk more than
was good for them, and who have got stouter than they should be, and such men
are better for being brought down several ])ounds ; but taking one with another,
I should not like that there should be anv ffreat fallinii' oti" in vveisht.

.,'0 n o

3794. In the course of a sentence of a year, should you say that a falling off of
a stone would be at all likely to afTect them injuriously .^
^ es, one with another, certainly.

379.5. Some prisoners are capable of it, and may be reduced with advantage;
but taking one with another, a prisoner falling oti" at the rate of one pound per
month, would suffer in health?

I think so.

3796. Chairman.'] With regard to the question which has just been asked you
respecting the suijcriority of brown bread over white, the following evidence has
been given to the Committee by a witness who has been examined before them:
In answer to question 998, he states, " 1 think it essential for prison diet that it
should be white bread ; or if not wliite bread, it should be of bran ground
finely. .My reason for this is, that it is shown that the bran of brown bread, as
the husk of oatmeal, and the shells of peas, hasten the nutritive material through
the liowels ; Ave therefore have a larger waste of food if we give the bran with the
bread, and the liusk with the oatmeal, and the shells with the peas, than we
should have without them." Would your experience enable you to confirm that
statement .'

Yes, I should agree with that statement. If whole meal bread were found to
produce diarrhoea, I should ex|)ect it to prove less nutritrious.

37 ()7. Then the following question is: "Then the prejudice which prevails
amongst the agricultural community, that the finest white bread is the best for
them, and the most nutritive, is correct r "' To which lie replies, "Certainly it is
correct ; brown bread is the rich man's dietary, and not the jKior man's dietary ; "
do you agree with that .''

1 (hj nut agree with that view of it ; I think brown bread is especially ihe poor
man's dietary, and not the rieh man's. I should reverse that answer ; of course
one would be very sorry to disagree with any medical opinion, but we are allowed
to diller, aiid 1 think wo could justify our diirerenees if it were necessary.

371)8. In your opinion, is it possible, Avith the medical knowledge which exists,
and the experiments which have been already made, to construct a scale of dietary
winch would be satisfiictory and safe for adoption, or do you l)elieve that there are
points which still require to be considered before any final measure could be
adopted ?

I think that we now' possess sufiicient knowledge to enable us to combine the
elements of a good diet; but without e.xjieriuient we do not possess sufficient
knowledge to be able to say what the minimum quantity of thosd elements slionld be.

3799. It has been given in evidence by a previous witness, who agrees with you,
that there are still some points which require to be determined authoritatively
before a diet could be established u])oii a satisfiictory basis, and the jjoints which,
in the opinion of that witness, it was necessary so to determine were these. He

states

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 359

states in answer to question 914, " We vrant to determine precisely the effect" (by ^. A. Guy, Esq.,
precisely, of course, the witness meant scientififally) " of meat, whether meat is "•"•

uecessar}' in any quantity, and in what quantity it is necessary. Then, whether .28th April 1863.

fat, which is a dearer food than starch, with which it is analogous in composition,

can be supplanted by starch, or in what proportion it must bo given. Then we
must also know what is the precise effect upon the system of those various punish-
ments which are to be recomiucndid ; and having first of all decided upon those
punishments of a definite kind, we must then know what would be the amount of
food necessary to meet that i)articuiar case. So that we have a large series of points
about whicli we are at present ignorant, and which are absolutely necessary to be
understood before we can form a new scheme of dietary, but all of which informa^
tion can be obtained by proper experiments in prison." Would your opinion go
along with that view r

I think I may ansMer that, in a scientific point of view, it would be desirable
to have such experiments made ; but I do not think them necessary in a practical
point of view, ^\'e do not want to ascertain those points with such minute
precision as the term scientific would imply ; we can get at them roughly. I
repeat that I should myself like to see the basis that I have mentioned adopted,
namely, one pound of bread per d:iy, and one pound of potatoes (that is what was
given in the fourth experiment at Pentouville), because the potato element is so
essential to a sound dietary, and then varying tlie quantities of other things. I
should be satisiied with making these expt-riments in tiie case of prisoners variously
employed within our own prison, some w'ith hard work, some with a little harder
work, and some few could be found with no work at all, or such very light work
as is almost tantamount to no work, for instance, picking coir, which is very light
work ; but I do not think it is necessary to make these expeiiments in so scien-
tific a manner as is laid down in that evidence.

3i>oo. And would you leave the determination to the judgment and the
experience of the different medical officers in the different prisons 'i

I would not do that ; if 1 could have my choice in a matter of that sort, I
should say, put your experiments into the hands of some one man ; if a committee
were formed, the comnnttee would beconne as one man if it were of any value at
all : as a general rule, it is never of more value than tlie best man in ir, and
especially if it is to conduct experiments. It is better to select some one man in
■whom you can placp confidence, if there be such a person, and get him to make
the experiments required in some one prison, and then having made those
experiments with great care, to extend their results to other prisons.

3801. I think the Committee understand that your view is, that though it is
not absolutely necessary, in a practical point of view, that the point should be
determined Avith scientific [)recision and minuteness, still that it would be very
desirable to go into those different questions, with a view to obtaining an ulti-
mate finality, so to speak, to the dietary basis, whatever it may be, wdiich may
be hereafter adopted ?

It would be desirable to make such experiments.

3802. In the meanwhile, as a jjrovisional measure, would you be satisfied with
a dietary constructed upon the vegetable and farinaceous principle, such as you
recommended to the Committee a short time since r

Yes, I should be satisfied with that.

3803. Earl of Rcmneyl] In the event of potatoes failing, are split peas a good
substitute?

No ; split peas would not be a good substitute ; cabbages would answer the
purpose, or any other green vegetable ; rice would not answer, nor peas ; it is
the potherb class which you want when the potato fails ; but the best substitute
that we could find would be, if oranges were cheap, some fruit of that kind.
The potato contains a vegetable acid, either the acid of lemons or tartaric
acid, it is not quite made out which ; there is some little difference of opinion
as to what the precise acid is, but it is a vegetable acid in combination with
potash ; whenever that is wholly absent from the food, scurvy will break out,
whatever the dietary may be otherwise ; and whenever that is supplied, scuivy
will be cured, if it is supplied in sufficient quantity; that is one of the facts
which we have best ascertained. I may mention that, in my opinion, the reason
of the dreadful mortality which attended the pestilences of former times was two-

(37. 12.) Y Y 4 fold :

360 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

W.A.Gay,Esq., old: first, there Avas the want of a suffident quantity of vegetables, not of
M. i;. potatoes merely, but of vegetables generally, in the dietary of the population.

28tli iTiTiSC':! '^^'*^ population were many of them in a condition of scurvy, or verging upon it,
'"' • " siii(^ whenever the pestilence came, it was a pestilence supervening on the scurvy ; •
the pestilence laid hold of scorbutic people, and that was one reason of the terrible'
loss of life which took place in the pestilences of former times. I do not think that
the severity of those pestilences can be accounted for. merely by the closeness in
which ]ieople lived. I think it is necessary to assume also a want of that vegetable
element in their diet.

3084. Lord WodeJiouse.] Do you think that cocoa is a desirable article of prison
diet ?

Cocoa is a very good article of diet, and contains a good deal of that oily
element which, if we could manage it, should always exist in food ; it is better
that there should be some oily element in food, and cocoa supplies that ; it contains
a good deal of oil in every part of it.

3805. Looking upon cocoa as rather a luxury, do you think it would be
necessary to include it in prison diet r

Not necessary, certainly.

3806. Do you think that the same remark would apply to molasses, which is
mixed with the cocoa ?

I do not think that either is essential to prison diet.

3807. Chairman.'] In the same way treacle, which takes a prominent place in
some diets, in your opinion, would be unnecessary ?

It is a very good article of diet, but it is not necessary.

3808. Do you happen to be aware whether the dietaries in the different county
and borough prisons are very discrepant with regard to each other?

Very much so indeed.

38o(). Can you give the Committee any information upon that point ?

Yes. I think I can give the Committee some means of tracing the history of
those dietaries. I think it likely that the Millbank dietary of some years since,
was the model u])on which the recommendatidus issued to the county and borough
prisons were based. I find that as the Millbank dietary gives 22 ounces of bread
per diem, or 154 ounces'per week, so also does the dietary. No. 5, which is given in
cases of hard labour for periods exceeding four months ; and the distribution of
the 22 ounces between breakfast, supper, and dinner is the same. The Millbank
dietary gives 7 pounds of potatoes, and the recommended dietary does the same ; so
that it seems likely that those recommendations for Class 5 were based in some
shape or other upon the dietary then in use at jNIillbank. Now the 22 ounces of
bread at Millbank exceed by 2 ounces the 20 ounces at Pentonville, which 20 ounces
were given as the result of the experiments to which I have alluded. Dr. Baly,
my predecessor, when asked whether the Millbank dietary might be reduced in
the element of biead to the hjwer scale of Pentonville, answered, that he thought
not, because Millbank was unhealthy. So that in allowing 22 ounces of bread in
Class 5 of the county and borough prisons, the example of Millbank was followed,
which had the 22 ounces and retained them, merely because it was unhealthy.

3810. Therefore, the Government scale of dietary for the county and borough
prisons, which might be sujiposed to be healthy, and to be under the ordinary
circumstances of gaols and houses of correction, is framed upon an exceptional
scale, namely, that of Millbank?

Yes, I think it is. That is the view which T have been induced to take.

3811. Lord ffudc/iomc] Does that remark apply to the whole scale of diet,
or only to one jiarticular class ?

Only to (.'lass 5.

3812. Chairman.] ^'ou have gone through and analysed, have you not, the
different dietaries, as given in the return to the House of Commons iu 1857?

Yes, I have.

3813. Can you state to the Committee any results from that analysis?

f find that tiic dietary for (!lass 5 is as I have stated : 22 ounces of bread
per diem, IG ounces of potatoes, and 16 ounces of meat. At Millbank they
have 3.5 ounces of meat. That class has also 1 1 pints of gruel, three of cocoa,

and

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 361

and three of soup. Fonaerly, ]jrior to 1854, we had soup on two days at Mill- W. A. Guy, Esq..
bank ; but Dr. Baly, when the cholera came, thougiit it expedient to strike off "• ^■

tlie soup and to put on the meat, five ounces every day. When the special ^gth a ril i8v^
necessity for that chana-e i)assed awav, the meat was still retained; no alteration
ever took place afterwards. Now, the earlier diet at Millbauk was a better diet
and a cheaper diet, and it approximated to this diet of Class 5.

3814. Lord Wodchoiise.'] Does the adoption of that dietary imply tliat the
county gaols have adopted li^e ounces of meat instead of soup ?

No. because at the time when those instructions were issued ]\Iilll)ank itself hud
soup twice a week, and not the five ounces of meat every day.

3815. Then they adopted the dietary as it stood before Dr. Baly's altera-
tion ?

Yes, the two diets were very nearly the same at that time.

3810. Cliairman.'] Therefore a change which was essentially temporary in its
natui'e has been converted into a permanent one ?

Yes. The women in this Sth Class have 18 ounces of bread per dav ; one ounce
less of meat on four days, and half a pound less of potatoes on each of those
four days also, and the other elements are the same as with the men. I iind
on looking through this Return that 42 of the borough and county prisons
have adopted the recommendations of the Home Office, in regard to this diet
table for Class 5, and I could give the Committee some curious illustrations of
the anomalies existing in the other ]:)risons. What I am about to state is
similar to what I have already stated before the Royal Commission ; as it bore
upon the subject of diet generally it was introduced into the evidence there
given. If we take the element of bread, those dietaries are found to vary
from the minimum of 30 ounces per week to the maximum of 224 ounces,
exhibiting all sorts of figures, 30, 36, 68, and so on.

3817. Karl of Dudh'i).'] What is the prison where they give 224 ounces of
bread ?

Huntingdon ; that is 2 pounds per day.

3818. Lord Wodehonsc.'] Would that be to prisoners in the same class, or in
a different class ?

All the same class ; I am always speaking of Class 5, and of no other at
present. One large group, which includes Newgate, shows 168 ounces of bread
per week. The Middlesex prisons and the Wakefield jDrisons show 140 ounces.

3819. Earl oi Dudley.] But do we not find that there is a set-ofi" to that
minimum ?

It is not always a full compensation. If we take the element of meat, it is
found to vary from no meat at all, through 6 ounces, 8 ounces, 12 ounces, 18
ounces, and such numbers up to 25 ounces in a week. If we take the element
of potatoes, it varies from 24 ounces, the least quantity in any prison, through
32 ounces, 56 ounces, and other numbers upto 112 ounces ; that is one pound
per day. The total of the solid elements of bread, meat, and potatoes, tiken
together, varies from a minimum of 100 ounces to a maximum of 340. But it
should be understood that where the total quantity of solid elements is smallest,
the dietary is sometimes, and indeed generally, improved by the addition of
oatmeal and milk, with which they make milk porridge, or by Indian meal, or
suet juidding ; I have only compared together the same elements in all cases.

3820. Lord fFodchonse.l Y'^our statement goes to prove the extraordinary
variation of food in the quantity and nature of the dietaries, rather than to give
an opinion as to the value of the dietaries r

Yes, to show how little they have followed the instructions of the Home
Office.

3S21. Earl of Dudlcii^ Must not that always be the case so long as thsre is
a surgeon at the head of the establishment, and who is absolute in the matt-r?

The surgeon is never absolute, I think. Great attention is always paid to the
opinion of the surgeon upon dietary matters, and he is supposed to be the best
authority, but I should not have thought him quite absolute in such a matter
as the general scale of dietary.

3822. The question was asked of a witness before the Committee, whether
(37. 12.) Z z the

362 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

W. A. Gill/, Esq., the governor of a gaol, with tlie consent of the visiting magistrates, could not
M. B. reduce the scale of labour to anything he liked, and whether the surgeon of

— T „. a gaol could not raise the dietary to anything he liked, and the answer was
2 1 pri 1 3. Yps^ ill both cases ; do you concur in that opinion ?

I think the witness must have meant that the surgeon might, in an individual
case, |)ut a prisoner upon any diet he jdeased, but I do not think that he could
raise the whole scale without consultation with the authorities of the prison.

3823. The question meant this ; whether, if the siu-geon took a humane view
of the thing, he could not raise the scale of diet to an indulgent scale ?

If a surgeon were to represent by a report to the prison authorities that he
thought tlie diet insufficient, I liave no doubt that his opinion would carry
great weight with it, and would, probably, be attended to ; but I should think
that nothing short of a deliberate report on his part would lead to that result ;
it must be a deliberate, carefully drawn up, report.

3S24. Lord Wode/iousc] Is it not the case that when once a dietary is fixed,
which no doubt would be fixed after taking the advice of the surgeon, the only
power which the surgeon possesses is either generally to represent to the
magistrates that the diet is insufficient, with a view to a general change, or to
order that any prisoner should have extra diet, on the ground of ill-health ?

Just so.

382,=). But the surgeon could not, on his own opinion, alter the whole scale
of diet ?

Certainly not.

3826. Chairman.'] Are the Committee to underst;md, from one of your recent
answers, that in the total of solids which you have calculated as l)eing in the
minimum 100 ounces, and in the maximum o-lO ounces, suet pudding is not
included ?

It is not included. I should rather have said the solids that I had previously
given, namely, bread, meat and potatoes.

3827. You would not exclude suet pudding as being a sohd, would you ?
No, certainly not.

3828. Looking at this very great variation in diet which you have described
to the Committee, are you of opinion that as it is certain that it must be very
iniurious in a penal point of view, so it is probable that this variation may be
injurious also in a medical point of view ?

I can scarcely suppose that diets so various should all of them be rigid ; but
various diets, as every one knows, may suit the average of persons who are put
upon them.

3829. From your experience of prison life, would you not say that it would
be a great advantage to secure uniformity of diet in the dift'erent prisons ?

1 think it would be very important to establish uniformity of diet, and only
the day before yesterday I heard from a magistrate, a visitor of one of our
county prisons, that it was believed tliat prisoners were coming across from the
county of Sussex to the county of Kent, and committing crimes in that county
because they behoved that if they got into prison they would be better treated
in the county of Kent.

3830. An objection has been raised by some of the witnesses to uniformity
of diet on this ground, that the population of England varies very much in its
hai)its and in its'general diet, and tliat what would be sufficient for one section of
the population in the South would not perhaps be enough for the corresponding
section in the North, or West, or East ; but is it your opinion that you could
construct, speaking hroadly and generally, such a dietary as might be ai)plied
uniformly with safety and satisfactory results to the general population of
England ?

i think so. I think that such a dietary might be constructed, and you might

• lay down certain essential elements, say bread and potatoes, leaving other

things as alternatives ; for instance, either meat, or if it were preferred, Indian

meat pudding ; placing .side by side the alternatives of the other things, but

laviua; down as necessary bread and potatoes, and the quantity of them.

3831. You

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 363

3831. You propose therefore to leave a diseretion to the local authorities to JF. A. Guy, Esq.,
adopt within certain limits a scale of dietary which in other respects would be '"•''■

uniform? 28th A TiSfi'*

Yes. I think that that might be permitted with advantage, because the ^"

habits of the inhabitants of dijfferent parts of the country in the matter of diet
vary so much, that it would be well perhaps to allow a certain variation in
certain parts of the diet.

3832. Might it not also be possible to allow for the difFerences either in
excess or in deticiency between the different parts of the country, and to frame
your dietary so that no discretion beyond, that of the surgeon, in case of extra
diet, should be left to the local authorities r

I think that that would be quite possible.

3833. And you would not apprehend any injurious effects to the prisoners,
or fear that the ditt should be insufficient for the hard labour, which it is
to be supjiosed should be performed uniformly in all gaols ?

No, 1 should not.

3834. Earl of Dudlei/.] Do }'ou include meat as one of the necessaries ?

No ; not as a necessary, but as an alternative ; the only necessaries that
I should define would be bread and potatoes.

3835. Chairman.~\ Does the treadwheel exist, or has it existed within your
recollection at Millbank ?

We have a treadwheel, but we do not use it, and it has never been used
within my recollection.

3836. Have you a crank, and is the crank used?
Yes, the crank is used for pumping water .^

3837. Is it a crank with one continuous shaft ? ,
Yes.

31^38. Does it form a part of the manual labour in the prison, or is it merely
employed for the express purpose of raising water for the prison ?

It is employed for the express purpose of i-aising water, and all the prisoners
who are not exempted upon medical grounds are put upon it ; even the women
do their share at the pump.

3839. Do you, upon medical grounds, after your experience of it, see any
objection to the use of such a crank r

No, certainly not ; quite the contrary.

3840. Is there, in your opinion, anything prejudicial to the health of the
prisoners in the use of it ?

Nothing at all.

3841. Do you believe that it conveys a sense of degradation or of irritation
to the minds of the prisoners who are so employed upon it ?

No sense of degradation, certainly ; no sense even of monotony ; it is felt to
be a change for the short time that they are upon it ; it is a punishment only
to those prisoners who would gladly escape from any labour at all.

3842. Earl of Dudley.'] And therefore it is the better element of punishment ?
Yes.

3843. CItairmaii.] But that monotony would exist equally in the case of
picking oakum, would it not :

Yes, and therefore it is not Hked ; picking oakum is a very unpopular labour.

3844. Have you any knowledge of the use of the treadwheel ?
I have had no experience of it at all.

384.';- You are not prepared to say whether, medically, you consider it
injurious or not ?

I should say that it is not medically injurious.

3846. Do you believe that there is any serious appprehension of prejudicial
effects to the health of the prisoner if the ordinary examination be made by the
surgeon previous to a man being put upon the wheel ?

Certainly not.
(37. 12.) z z 2 3847- Are

3G4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

, A. Guy, Esq., 3847. Are you at all conversant with the use of shot drill ?

M. B. I have only heard of it ; I may have seen soldiers so employed, but 1 do not

know anything of it.

28th April i8f)3.

384S. ^Vould you, on medical grounds, entertain any apprehension of the
result of the shot drill, provided that in the same way the prisoner was sub-
jected to medical examination ?

Certainly not. In the case of ruptured men, or if it was thought that it
would be too great a strain upon the muscles, then, of course, a man would not
be put upon it ; 1 am assuming medical examination in all cases.

3849. With regard to the shot drill, it has been su<igestcd by one of the
witnesses that the shot should be placed upon raised pedestals, so as to involve
rather less exertion than stooping ; would not that, in a medical point of view,
obviate to a great extent the I'isk of rupture?

I think that that would obviate any jjossible objection.

3850. In some prisons, as perhaps you are aware, where hard labour does
not exist either by the treadwheel or the crank, exercise in yards h:!S been
made the substitute for it ; in your opinion is such exercise equivalent to the
infliction of hard labour ?

No ; certainly not.

3851. But, on the other hand, where they have no labour by means of the
treadwheel or crank, is it not, in a medical point of view, necessary to give
some exercise to the prisoners by taking them into the yards for exercise }

Most assuredly it is.

3852. Would that, from your long experience of prison matters, be to the
prisoners who exercise in those yards a punishment at all eciuivalent to the
punishment which they would undergo at the treadwheel or the crank ?

Certainly not.

3853. Are you acquainted with what is technically termed the hard labour
cellular cranks?

]\o, I have no experience of them.

3854. Earl of Dudley.'] Do 30U not believe that a man performing what is
able to be given him now in prison as hard labour, which, generally speaking,
is mat-making, would live well and be healthy upon no better diet than that
which is the ordinary diet of the labourer out of doors ?

I have no doubt that he would be in perfect health upon such food as a
labourer out of doors gets.

38.55. 1 ask you this question; of course a man out of doors is almost
entirely ignorant of the best meat, of plain mutton, and still more of plain
beef, and he knows nothing of cocoa, molasses, and things of that sort ?

Yes, just so ; the diet that a prisoner gets is as good a diet as a labourer
gets, with the exception always of those labourers who receive the best wages,
and who have the advantage of resident landlords ; in such cases I think where
the parishes are small they do live better than the prisoners in prison ; I say
that as the result of a recent inquiry.

3856. Over the country generally ?

I can only speak of one instance in which I thought it right to make some
careful enc[uiries in a short visit which I have just made to Cambridgeshire.
I went through the houses of the village, and ascertained exactly what the
labourers bought in the shape of flour (which was easily converted into its
equivalent in bread), in the shape of nicit, in the shn])e of potatoes, and in the
shape of butter, lard, and dripping, and I took down the results ; and in that
village, which is very i'avouiabiy circumstanced for that jjart of the country,
the average (piautitv of food which the men and woment got, taking the solid
elements, which are with them almost the only ones they get, the quantity of
food per week is about 19 pounds to about 15 pounds consumed by the same
number of adult male, together with the same number of adidt female, pri-
soners. The labouring men and women get about four pounds more than the
prisoners in Millbank, or than the prisoners in Class 5 of the county and
borough gaols ; liut then that is a very favourable case. My impression is,
tliat tlie well-off lahoun r in the country gets, on the whole, more food than the
prisoner hi prison ; that is to say, in all our prisons except the convict esta-
blishments

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 365

blishments of Portland, Dartmoor, Portsmouth, and Chatham. He gets more iv. A. Guy, Esq.,
as a labourer than he would get in Millbank on ordinary diet, and more than m. b.

he would get in class 5 in county and borough prisons. „., , ~ ^^

° ,01 28th April 1863.

3857. If you were to state the average of all the diets that are given

throughout the country, varying as you have shown them to do, we should
find that the prisoner is kept very much above the average of the labourer,
should we not ?

That is my impression, but I have no facts to guide me,

38,58. There is, of course, a very large diff. rence between 30 and 240 ?
Yes; but then that 30 which 1 have given you, is only the one element of
bread ; th e other elements have to be added to that.

3859. But bread is the staple, is it not ?

Yes. In the ])articular case that I have referred to, a group of labourers'
famihes, consisting of 21 adult males, 21 adult females, and 26 children, con-
sumed, on the average, upwards of nine pounds of bread per week ; rather less
than a pound of meat in the whole week (by meat, I mean bacon chiefly, and
pork ; I do not mean fresh meat, which they very rarely taste, even in this well-
conditioned A'illage), less than six pounds of potatoes, and less than onethird cf
a pound of butter, lard, and dripping.

3860. Lord Wudehouse.^ Have you reckoned nothing for vegetables, other
than potatoes :

It is chiefly potatoes ; they very rarely get anything else ; ver\' rarely greens.

38(3 1 . Earl of Dudley. ~\ May we add any tea to that ?

I have not ascertained that, because it would be very difficult to measure ;
it does not amount to much in any case.

3862. Do they drink beer?

That they do not often get ; in harvest time they get beer, but at other times
I do not think they get much ; they may have a little, perhaps, oc(jasionally.

3863. As a rule they do not drink beer every day ?
No.

38(14. But taking this, which you say is a favourable diet in a particular
village, is riot that which is given throughout the prisons in the length and
breadth of the land very much greater ?

No, it is less.

381I5. But we find cocoa, milk, and molasses given in prison, and we find
actually mutton and beef given to men not invalided ?

Yes ; but the quantity of bread is considerably larger in the case of the agri-
cultui'al labourer, and that counterbalances the extra meat which is given in
prison. If the labourer gets a pound of salt meat, the prisoner gets perhaps
24 ounces of fresh meat in the course of the week, but the labourer would get
very much more bread.

3866. Therefore bread may be considered as a substitute for the meat which
is now given in prison ?
Y'es.

38(17. Lord Wodchouse.~\ The result of your experience would show that
there is rather an exaggerated opinion as to tlie superiority of prison diet over
the diet of our orelinary agricultural labourers ?

Yes, I think there is an exaggerated opinion upon that subject. My own
impression is, that the well-conditioned labourer gets rather more than the
prisoner, but that the mass of the labourers throughout the country would
get less.

3868. What is the ordinary rate of wages in that village in Cambridgeshire to
which you have referred?

Twelve shillings a week, a little above the rate in the surrounding districts ;
it is a very favourably-circumstanced village for that part of England ; the
proprietor is resident, and there is great kindness shown to the labourei-s, so
that, though poor, they are never in destitution.

3869. Earl of Romney,'] It has been recommended by some of the witnesses,
that at the beginning of a long sentence the diet should be low, and it should

(37- 12.) z z 3 keep

366 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

W. A. Gay, Esq , l<eep ou rising at various periods during tliat sentence ; do you believe that to

M- B. be a good plan ?

o , / T,86q ^" general terms I should agree with that view, that it is expedient to improve

' ' ' the diet in the case of those prisoners who remain longest in prison.

3870. You do not think that any evil result would be likely to arise from
having first lowered the tone of the prisoner, and afterwards increasing the
food, when the power to digest was taken away ?

No, not unless the change from one stage to the other were very abrupt ;
unless you added on a great deal at each time, and made great changes in the
stages of diet.

3571. Chmrmnn.'] Adopting for the moment the scale as recommended by
the Home Otlice, would you be prepared to make a prisoner who was sentenced
to six months' imprisonment pass through the several stages till he had ari'ived
at the 5th class ?

I certainly should ; I think that it would be both a simple and a desirable
procedure to place every prisoner whose sentence is less than a week, and up
to a week, and all other prisouers, at least for one week, upon bread and
water ; but in tlie case of sentences exceeding a week and falling short of three
weeks, I think that I should make an addition of potatoes at the dinner ; then,
in the case of sentences exceeding three weeks and falling short of six weeks,
I shoidd make a very slight addition, such as gruel for breakfast and supper,
or meat once a week. 1 should not make a great addition for such a short
period ; and then, for sentences above six weeks and short of four months, it
might be desirable to give them, in addition to bread and potatoes, perhaps
porridge twice a week, Indian meal pudding twice a week, soup twice a week,
possit)lv, and possibly meat once a week, on the Sunday. I speak of this as a
mere outline of what might be arranged. And then, lastly, for those whose
sentences exceed four months, I should make some very slight and unimportant
addition to that scale.

3572. But you would not be in favour of admitting six months' sentenced
prisoners to the full diet of the 5th class at once, without passing through the
jjreliminary stages ?

Certainly not.

3873. Lord TVodeJiouse.] Is the answer which you have just given consistent
with your statement, that yon think that soup and meat are not necessary in
pi'ison dietary 1

I am not speaking of what is absolutely necessary in what 1 have just said,
but what I think desirable, though not necessary. After a time the prisoner
must have something more than bread and water.

3874. Is anything desirable in prison which is not necessary in the way of
diet ?

It is difficidt to answer that question, because it is difficult to say what little
may be really necessary ; very little might be absolutely necessary, and yet
you would not like to give only that little ; you would give something more.

3875. Eari of Dudley.'] To make your answer to the question of the noble
Lord in the chair quite clear, would you say that every prisoner sentenced to a
long term of imprisonment should be carried through the gradual increase of
diet from the lowest up to the highest?

I think he should.

387^. And you think that that could be done with safety to health ?
I think so.

3877. And that it would be also a good system of punishment ?

I think so ; because in the case of prisoners who misconduct themselves
they might be put back upon the earlier diets.

3878. Chmrmaii.] Is there not, under the present system, this anomaly, that
you inflict the shortest possible diet, which is the severest punishment which
exists in many gaols, upon a prisoner who has committed a most venial offence,
and that you give the fullest possible diet, which is the object of ambition to
the majority of prisoners in the gaol, and for which, on their own avowal, some
offences are committed, to a man who had been guilty of very great outrages ?

With

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON" DISCIPLINE. 30/

With regard to venial offences, I may be allowed to say that I do not think W. A. Guy, Esq.,
the crimes for whieh men are condemned for short sentences are always to be ^'•'*-

considered venial offences. I take the serious crime of bee:2;in"- as an example. q.. . T-tT.

tj. • • 1 J 1 1 1 • • . T 1 1 11 /- 2otn April 10113.

It IS punished now by seven days nnprisonment. 1 know, and could state facts to

show, that a mendicant is always, or ahnost always, at the same time, a thief ; that

the two occupations go together ; that the man begs when he must and steals when

he can ; and even in the case of men who have committed the greatest offences,

and wlio are in Millbank prison, even that class of men are both beggars and

great culprits in other ways. Therefore, the man who commits the offence of

begging, if he gets seven days, deserves also to have the low diet upon whicli

he is put ; and when you go on from that to sentences for longer periods, if a

man passes through a week and goes on to a further term, there are other

reasons for increasing his diet than the question of the gravity of his offence.

:^879. Chairman.] Putting aside, therefore, the offence itself, have you not
this anomaly, that you punish with the severest diet a short-sentenced man, and
you punish with the lightest diet a long-sentenced man ?

My answer to that is, that the offence of a short- sentenced man deserves
bread and water for a week, and a long-sentenced man will pass through the
bread-and- water stage for a week, according to my own theory of what is right.

3880. But under the existing system, is it not the case that j'ou punish with
the lightest sentence, with regard to diet, the long- sentenced men, who do not
pass through those earlier stages, and that you punish with the sharpest diet
the men who are short- sentenced prisoners.-

That is so.

38S1. Earl oi Bomrin/.'] Are you accjuainted with the diets of Class 1 and
Class 2 in the Regulations ?
Yes.

3882. Is not what you have been recommending as a scale to be found in
those dietaries ?

It is somewhat similar to those dietaries ; but I would not even give oatmeal
gruel for a week.

3883. Your scale would be rather lower than this ?
Yes.

3SS4. Those classes have been designated to the Committee by one of the
witnesses as starvation ; do you concur in that .'

1 do not think so ; 1 should not agree with any witness who said that bread
and water for a week was starvation ; that is an exaggeration, I think.

3885. Chairvuni.'] In your opinion, is a reduction of diet a satisfactory mode
of punishment for prison offences ?

It is not to my mind a satisfactory punishment ; it is a punishment which
goes on too long ; it has the disadvantage of going on day after day, and such
punishments tease and worry and fret the prisoner, and give trouble to those
who have to take care of hiia ; therefore, they are not to be compared, for
humanity or for efficiency, to flogging, and wherever flogging can be inti'oduced
as a punishment, it is a better kind of punishment than any dietarj'^ punishment
that 1 know of.

3886. You would consequently view it as a most merciful punishment?
Yes, it is the most merciful punishment that I have any knowledge of.

3':- 87. Have you from your experience found it to be a most effective punish-
ment ?

A very effective punishment indeed, in the majority of cases.

388S. Lord JVodehonse.'] Are there not a great number of light prison offences
which it would be impossible to punish by flogging, and which you can only
punish by a reduction of the dietary ?

Yes ; there are some such cases ; but at the same time, flogging, although a
merciful punishment, is one of those punishments which should not be inflicted
very frequently, because it would then in some degree lose its efficacy.

3880. Are not the large majority of prison offences such offences as it would
(37. 12.) z z 4 be

368 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

IV. A. Guy, Esq., be impossil)le to punish by flogging', and though it would be very desii-able to
^'^' retain flogging for serious off"ences, it would be impossible to substitute flogging

■i8th April 1S63. ^*^^* reduction of diet for the more slight offences?

. The oft'ences committed in the convict prisons are not often slight offences.

In my experience in Millbank prison they would be most frequently serious
offences, such as threatening the oflicers, striking the officers, destroying
clothes, smashing windows ; those are the offences which are now punished
too frequently, as I think, by dietary punishments, and too rarely by flogging.

3890. Earl of Dudley.'] You admit, do you not, the efficiency of a change of
diet, and that a prisoner fears it ?

1 do not think it is very often effective ; I think it frets them a good deal ;
it is a punishment, but it is not a good kind of punishment.

389!. You stated, did you not, that recourse might be had in case of
necessity, to l)ringing the prisoners back again to the lower scale of diet ?

Yes, in the case of a prisoner who committed an offence that might be
deserving of a moderate flogging only ; and taking a case in v\hich flogging had
failed, then such a punishment might be resorted to ; but supposing- the offence
was not quite serious enough to deserve a flogging, then a dietary punishment
might be resorted to, and in a large number of cases you have nothing else
that you can inflict.

389-^. Do you not think that the one point which men of that sort, men of
an animal mind, look to, is the amount of food which they would have to eat?

They look to thitt, but I do not tliink they care much about it ; when they
have got their sentence passed, and have got three days' bread and water, they
do not care very much about it, for three days.

3893. My question had reference rather to the longer sentences?

I can only say this, that sometimes when they have been put back to the
penal class (liet, which was framed for the purpose of punishing them, they have
seemed to like it better than the ordinary diet.

3S94. Chairmuii.'] What is the present number of lashes which are given in
the event of flogging being inflicted ?

In Millbank formerl}', and of course the same was the case in the convict
prisons generally, four dozen lashes could be given ; but a recent order has
been issued limiting the number of lashes in the case of men, to two
dozen, which I think is too small a number ; you ought to have the power of
inflicting four dozen in terrorem, although it would not be necessary often to
inflict them.

389,5. Might it not in some cases be much more merciful and much more
effective to administer a flogging of four dozen lashes than two oi- three punish-
ments of two dozen ?

It might sometimes ; and yet no one who has to allot the number of lashes
could fail to take into account the nature of the offence, and he could not give
four dozen lashes for every case; he must vary it. if the question is put in
that way, it vi'ould be better sometimes to give four dozen than, to repeat two
dozen over again.

389^. Is it desirable, in fact, to hmit so closely the discretion of the governor
or the visiting justices with regard to the number of lashes to be given ?

T think it is not only inexpedient, but positively wrong to do so ; if a soldier
or a sailor can receive four dozen lashes, a prisoner, who is as hearty a man,
and as capable of bearing them, and a worse man, should certainly in common
justice receive as much.

3897. From whom did that order issue ?
It came from the Home Office.

3898. "Was it made applicable to county and borough gaols ?
I have no information upon that point.

38q9. In your opinion, is the punishment of the dark cell useful ?
My experience of the dark cell is, that we find both men and women
going to the dark cell over and over again ; the women will often commit

oft'ences

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 369

offences in order that they may go there; they have a certain morbid ^- A. Gvy,Esq,,
pleasure in beine; in the dark cell, and as the cells are side by side, and they "• ^■

can hear each other shouting and singing and cursing. They take a kind of ogth ATrTTiSe?
pleasure in being there, and I do not think that the dark cells are of any ser- '
vice to the majority of prisoners who are sent there.

3900. In your opinion, would shot drill be a useful punishment for men for
prison offences ?

1 do not myself think that those are good punishments which have no
puqjose except to punish. If the labour could be devoted to some useful
purpose I should prefer it very much.

3901. Some witnesses have recommended that, either as a disciplinary stage,
or as a punishment, guard beds should be used ; in a medical point of view
would you have any objection to that r

There is not the shghtest objection to the use of guard beds for a short time.

3902. Are you not of opinion that, as a general rule, whatever might be the
offence of a prisoner, and whatever the punishment, that punishment should
follow as close as possible upon the commission of the offence r

I think that it certainly should do so ; but there is this difficulty in carrying
the rule into effect, that the director, in the cases of Government prisons
in and about London, only attends once a week ; in Millbank he attends once
a week for the men, and once a week for the women, and the cases must be
reserved for his consideration till the day comes round ; and as he has other
prisons to attend to, he could not be summoned easily upon an emergency by
the governor.

3903. It has been stated by a witness before this Committee that when a
prisoner happens to be physically strong, and to have considei'able courage and
moral determination, it may constantly hai',pen that he may with impunity
disobey the orders of the gaoler ; is that, in your opinion, a state of things
which is satisfactory, or which ought to be allowed under any circumstances ?

I think that under no circumstances whatever should a prisoner be able
to set the discipline of the prison at defiance ; power should be given to
those who administer the affairs of prisons to counteract in the most humane
manner every insubordinate act of a prisoner ; they have not that power at
present, and it is very nmch to be regretted that they do not possess it.

3904. What sort of power do you allude to r

I will take the case of a woman, because the treatment of women, is
more difficult than that of men. They cannot be flogged. She breaks out ; she
begins by tearing her clothes off her back, and stands before you as naked as
she was born. Her next step is to break her windows, and then to shout and
make all the disturbance she can. Of course you must adopt some means of
covering her, and you put upon her that which she cannot tear, namely, a
canvass jacket ; still she is in her cell ; she lies on her back, and she drums
upon the door of her cell, disturbing everybody about her ; and the more
painful it is to others to listen to the disturbance the more agreeable it is
to her. The great evil of this system has been very frequently pointed out ;
and I myself suggested only the other day that it should be understood that
when women make this disturbance, they sliall have placed upon them what are
technically called the hobbles, consisting simply of a padded leather strap round
the ankles, and that fastened by a strap to the belt, supposing the woman to
have a jacket on, which has a belt going round the loins. The effect of that is,
of course, that the legs cannot be" fully extended ; she is placed upon her side,
and she cannot kick any longer. I am informed that this is illegal, and there-
fore in that case we cannot remedy the evil ; that is an example of the diffi-
culty which is experienced. Tl:ere should be a power of counteracting, without
cruelty, every act of a prisoner by which discipline is destroyed, or the peace
of the prison disturbed ; but there is no power of doing that at present.

390.';. Therefore, you would give the power to the authorities of the prison,
or to the medical officer, to inflict that sort of punishment which would naturally
seem contingent upon and appropriate to the offence coiii milted ?

ISot to the medical officer ; I hold that the medical officer should never inflict
punishnunt ; he is not a properly discipline officer, but he should so perform
his IVuictious as to promote the discipline of the prison. He ought not to

(Z7. 12.) 3 A interfere

370 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

W. A. Gtiy,Esq., interfere with it, but he ou2,ht never to. inflict punishment. I venture to sug-

M-B- gest that the right view to take of the functions of a medical man is, tliat he

, T~~^ oc should have the power of restraint, not of punishment, in case of a prisoner

'^'^ doing that which greatly disturbs the other prisoners, or the officers of the

establishment.

390". Is solitary confinement one of th« punishments to which you have
recourse ?

In our prison discipline solitary confinement is used in the first stage, and
also with the penal class ; those prisoners who are in the penal class are in a
more severe solitary confinement, and upon a special diet too.

390". By solitary confinement, are the Committee to understand that no
communication of any sort or kind takes iilace, except that which is absolutely
necessary on the part of the warder and the prisoner ?

That is the solitary confinement which takes place -with us in the penal class.
In the case of the other prisoners, every Sunday twice, and evei-y other day
once, the prisoner is in chapel side by side with the other prisoners ; he is also
at school once a week ; and he takes his exercise with other prisoners ; and
therefore he is not absolutely solitary ; it is separation, but not solitaiy
confinement. Those under punishment for the worst prison offences ai'e kept
more strictly separate, and even take their exercise by themselves.

3908. To what extent, in your opinion, medically speaking, could solitary
confinement be carried ?

Thai is an extremely difficult question. If it were really solitary confine-
ment I do not know that 1 could answer it,

■3909. I mean solitary confinement as modified by the existing arrangements
in iMillbank Prison?

The confinement is in separate cells, and is so far solitary. But the jn-i-
soners communicate a good deal with the officers, and they take their
exercise, and go round the exercisingground one after the other, so that they
see the other prisoners ; and there are many acts in the course of the day
which bring tliem into the presence of the others ; so that it is not absolute
solitude.

3910. Is it safe to infer that the distinction between solitary and separate
confinement amounts to this, — that in solitary confinement they have rather
fewer opportunities of communication with other people ?

That would be the distinction.

3QI1. Assuming that solitary confinement means that which you have
described, what is the extent to which, in your opinion, jou could, with safet}--,
carry it .'

I think that the solitary confinement we have at Millbank, such as I have
described it, may be carried on with safety for one year. Our system of
separate confinement does not appear to affect the mind injuriously. I do not
mean to say that a prisoner who comes into prison upon the verge of unsound-
ness of mind, might not develope into full unsoundness in that time, partly
because of the separation ; but I am of opinion also, that a prisoner siiould
expect that that may happen to him, and that the possibility of unsoundness
must be taken into account as one of the results of his being in prison at
all ; and that the possil)le falling into illness should be taken into account
as the possible result of his being in prison at all ; so also if he does those
things which bring illness upon him, such illness being in no case the fault of
those who have to deal with him, he ought to sutler for his own acts, and Me
should not be required to prevent him from making himself ill. It is not
reasonable to expect that; but it is now expected of us.

3912. Is there any other suggestion which yon would wish to make to the
Committee ?

I have prepared a further statement, which might be rather important, in refer-
ence to the county gaols, with regard to the diet of class 1 ; i)risoners sentenced
to less than one week. It is the class in which they prescribe bread and gruel
only. I thought it might be interesting to know, that 58 prisons conform to the
suggestions of the Home Office, and that the other prisons give very various quan-
tities of bread ; for instance, 112 ounces, 12G ounces, 140 ounces, 168 ounces,

224 ounces.

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 37I

224 ounces, and 280 ounces. In the gaol at Hertford they give 168 ounces of W. A. Guy, Es^.,

bread, and also gruel and soiij); and in i^enibroke, for all classes of prisoners, '*'• ^•

without exception, they give 2^ pounds of bread per diem. The amount of bread 28th \^] 186'?

varies in tlie different gaols from 1 1 2 ounces in the week to 280 ounces ; so that ' ' ^^ '

there is thy same variety in that as there is in the other elements. I should be

glad also to state, that the recommendations sent to the county gaols and prisons

are extremely anomalous, in many points of view : that they do not seem to

recognise any fixed relation between the quantity to be given to a man and to

a woman. With regard to class 3, which is for sentences of more than 21 days

and less than six weeks, with hard labour, the women who lia,ve more than

21 days and less than six weeks' imprisonment have 196 ounces of solid food ; but

when they come to have a longer term, more than six weeks and less than four

montlis, they have only 17O ounces, and all that they get in return, as a

counterbalance to that, is a single pint of soup extra per week, and an exchange

of six ounces of meat for two pounds of potatoes. Again, wliile in class 1 a

woman has as much bread for dinner as a man, in class 2 she has just half as

much ; and while in class 3 she has for dinner six ounces of bread iu place of

eight, in class 4 the same difference is made for every meal. In class 5 she has

six ounces of bread for eight ounces at breakfast and supper, but the same

quantity at dinner, while the allowance of meat is reduced from four ounces to

three, and of potatoes from a pound to half-a-pound. So that there is a great

anomaly in this very table. This table, in my judgment, requires to be very

careful!)' considered and amended.

3913. You would desire, in fact, to see a uniformity of diet for all prisons in
England, whether county or borough, and you would desire to see that table
made compulsory upon them ?

I should like to see it made compulsory upon them ; but, as I stated before,
I should like to have certain elements in the diet fixed and compulsory, but to
leave a latitude in certain other elements, those being mainly alternative ; for
instance, the element of meat, with the alternative of vegetable substances,
containing similar supporting qualities.

3914. On the other hand, the Committee understand you also to say, that
meat is not essential, and that you might find an equal amount of nutriment in
other substitutes for meat r

I certainly think so.

3915. Karl oi Rofnnei/.] At the same tinie you are in favour of having a
dietary established as a basis, subject to variations to some extent, to meet the
varieties of particular localities ?

Yes ; varying with the price of food or the particular habits of the district in
which the gaol might be situate. These, I think, might fairly be taken into
account.

3916. Earl of .Z)wfl'/e(/.] Except iu cases of ilhiess, you would also limit the
discretionary additions to the diet ?

Yes ; I should allow no change to be made in the diet, except upon the
written report of the medical man to the visiting justices. I should require
that, and I think also some reference to a central authority, over and above
that, if it were possible. At all events, the medical man should not be able to
make any change, except in individual cases, unless upon a very careful report
of the reasons which induced him to recommend the change.

391 7. If j'ou settled the basis of what should be the diet, namely, the amount
of bread and potatoes given, and a discretion is allowed with regard to the
addition of meat, accoi'ding to local views, it may be a very large diet or a
comparatively small one ?

Yes.

3918. In one word, uniformity disappears from the opening of that door?
No, I intended to have said this, that with regard to all the elements, other

than bread and jio'atoes, there should be an alternative element of diet, meat,
f'er instance, or Indian meal, and that the quantity of the alternative dements
should be prescribed ; they might give either so much meat or so much
Indian meal, leaving it to them to determine which.

3910. Lorci Steward.] Provided the food contained a certain quantity of
nutriment ?

(37. 12.) 3 A 2 That

372 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

IV. A. Ginj, Esq., That being of course assumed. There is only one other point which I
M. B. think very essential in the matter of discipline. I was just asked a question

— r with regard to the necessity of punishment following quickly upon the commis-

28tli Apn 1863. gjp^j j)f jj^p offence. There is a great want of punishments which I ventured to
term, in my evidence before tlie Royal Commission, Contiiigettt Piuiishmcnts.
I think it very important that it should be possible to say to a prisoner, " If you
do a certain act you shall have an immediate certain consequence," and the
director and visiting justices should have the power of saying that. I have
seen such excellent results happen in more than one case, from causing that
plan to be ado])ted in Millbank, that I should strongly urge that as a power
which ought to be given ; so that not only should a man be had up at the end
of a week, perhaps, after he has committed his offence, to be adjudicated upon
by the director, in the case of convict prisons, or l)y the visiting justices, in
the case of the county and borough gaols, but that the director or visiting
justices should be able to say to the man, " You are in the habit of doing or
omitting to do certain things. You refuse, for instance, to go out to exercise.
Well, if you do not go out to exercise when you are required to do so, as
often as you refuse you shall lose your dinner."

3920. Chairman.'] Are you not aware that the governor of a gaol has very
much the power which you have described ?

But that does not quite meet the case ; I mean that a man should be dis-
tinctly given to understand that, when he commits offences which he is in the
habit of committing, it is not necessary that he should be brought before the
governor, or the director, for adjudication, but when he commits the offence the
punishment should follow;

3921. In borough and county gaols the governor is actually on the spot, and
therefore he coidd be in that man's cell in five minutes after the commission of
the offence ?

Yes ; but that does not quite meet the case which I speak of ; what I mean
is, that if the man refuses to go out to exercise, he should lose his dinner upon
that day without any further reference to tlie governor, or any other person in
authority. This is the essence of that kind of punishment.

3Q2 2. Would not it be optional with the governor of a county gaol very
much to lay down such a rule ; does not that fall under one of the rules of
discipline ?

I do not know how that would be in county gaols, but I understood that it
was not legal at Millbank ; that there is the want of power to do it.

3923. Earl of Dudley.'] Is it the practice that the case should be heard at
the end of the week ?

All serious cases are heard when the director comes ; supposing a man com-
mits an offence on a Friday, and the director comes on '^I'hursday, he has to
be kept till tlie Thursday before the matter can be heard, and the offender
punished. The punishment is most wholesome when it is inflicted upon the
prisoner immediately.

3924. In fact, that is another answer to the question of the noble Chairman,
whether you did not think it a salutary thing that punishment should imme-
diately follow the offence r

It is more than that ; I mean that a certain consequence should follow a
certain act, and that the prisoner should know it previously.

392-,. Chairman.] Is there any other suggestion that you have to make to
the Committee ?

There is another suggestion tliat I should like to make ; I should like to
point out the jiresent anomaly which exists with regard to the punishment of
very serious offences within the ])rison ; a man may make an attempt on the
life of a warder, and he may i-eceive merely a prison punishment for it, and not
even be flogged for it ; he is not of necessity tried lor that offence, because
(I speak of my own knowledge) there are cases where he is not tried for that
very heinous offence; at all. Therefore, he is better off than if he were not
a prisoner. I should think it would be very desirable to consider whether
a person being already in prison under punishment for an offence, and making
not a simple assault, but a serious assault upon the life of an officer, shoidd not
be punished with death. 1 should think it ought to be so. I should like also

SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 373

to be able to express the opinion that a man, who is guilty of an act of mutiny jy^ i Cuu, Esq.,

in prison, should be liable to the punishment of death; but, at present, a m, b.

man is better off as a prisoner, if he commits an offence witliin the prison, — 7

than if he were outside the prison and committed the same offence. ^^'^^ '^P'^'' ^^^'^'

3926. Chairman.'] Would not the natural course be that he should be
indicted for such an offence ?

That is the proper course, but it is not adopted uniformly ; the Home Office,
with regard to those offences, seems sometimes to indict and sometimes not
to indict for precisely the same offence.

3927. Have you known, from your own experience, cases where an officer's
life has been attempted by a prisoner, and where no punishment has been consequent
ujjon the otl'ence ?

I know of two cases which occurred within a short period of each other, in
which the jirisonors were not tried for the offence ; they were not flogged, but
they were simply put back into the penal class for a certain length of time ; it
was simply a prison punisliment which was inflicted upon them ; no other notice
was taken of the offence.

3928. Was the offence in those cases an attempt on the life of the warders?
Yes, a serious attempt upon their lives ; in one case it was by means of a piece

of iron, whicli the prisoner had contrived to pick up whilst he was taking exercise,
and whicli happened to be lying about ; he secreted it, and shaqiened it up so as
to make a dagger of it ; twisted some cord about it, which he contrived to secrete,
making a kind of handle ; and he cut the warder through the forehead, dividing
the artery of the temple, and of course endangering his life, and intending to
destroy it. In the other case, the attempt on the warder's life was equally serious.

3929. Earl of Rovincy.~\ Since that, has there not been a case in which an
assault of some kind was committed, and the man was tried ?

Yes ; but it is not uniformly the case ; at least there seems to be no uiiifurm
rule ; sometimes a prisoner is put upon his trial, and sometimes he is not. But I
tlunk it very important that such a Committee, as your Lordships', should consider
how such very serious oftences in prison should be treated, and more especially
the broad question whether a man being a prisoner is not a greater culprit,
when he does those things, than if he were not a prisoner at all.

3930. Chairman.'] You would recommend that in every such attemjit as that
it should be made obligatory that the prisoner should be brought to trial ?

Yes, certainly, and in addition to that, that it should be considered a more
serious offence from the fact of his being a prisoner in prison.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

GEORGE PINSON, Esquire, is called in ; and Examined, as follows : G. Pinsov., i:„j.

3931. Chairman.] YOU are the Governor of Norwich Castle Gaol, are you
iiot ?

I am the Governor of the County Gaol.

3931.* How long have you held that office?
Nearly 20 years.

3932. What is the average number of prisoners who are confined in that gaol ?
The average of 1862, was 125.

3933. May that be accepted as a fair average in past years ?

No, there has been an alteration of late, which makes it not so, because one uf
the prisons in the county has been abolished, and consequently the ])risoners
formerly sent to that prison are all brought now to Norwich Castle ; and I also
receive prisoners under contract, from two boroughs.

3934. Were the abolition of that county prison, and the amalgamation of the
borough prison with the county prison, eflected under the powers of the Act?

One county prison has been JU)olished altogether, the county considering that
the I risoii was unnecessary ; and in the boronghs that I have alluded to, they
found that the county could receive their prisoners under contract, and con-

(37. lL>.) 3 A 3 sequently

374 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

G. Pinson, Esq. sequeiitlv one borough prison was entirely abolished, and the other, that of Kin<i-'s
Lynn, nearly so.

''' 393 ')• ^^o y^^^ mean that the borough prisons of" Thetford and Lynn liave been
amalgamated v^ith the county prison under the powers of the Act of Parliament?
We receive their prisoners under contract.

3936. Are you not aware that there is a difference between the amalgamation
of a borough prison «itli a county prison, and contracting, on the part of the
county prison, to take the borough prisoners?

1 am not aware of it ; I think that there is no amalgamation with regard to
taking those prisoners.

3937. At what rate, per head, do you contract?
At 4 s. G d. per liead, per week,

3938. How many borough gaols have contracted with you ?
Two ; Lynn and Thetford.

3939. Has any difficulty been experienced in making arrangements for con-
tracting with you ?

No difficulty whatever.

3940. Is the county prison upon the separate system ?
It is.

3941. Are all the cells certified by the Inspector?
Nearly all ; as many as are in use, are certified.

394'.'. Will you state to the Committee what the distribution of the day is^with
regard to employment, exercise, chapel, instruction and sleep?

Every prisoner must be ready to leave his cell at six in the morning ; he is
allowed half-an-huur for the purpose of washing, and general exercise, clianino-,
and so on ; at half-past six they proceed to work : first of all, those who go to
the tread-wheel are sent on to the wheel; immediately after they are put to
work, other ]irisoners, who are employed at industrial occu|)ati(>ns, are set to work,
and are kept at work until about 10 minutes to 9, when they return, and
come to the airing-yard and receive their breakfast, and each prisoner goes on to
his cell ; ihen of course there is their time for breakfast until half past nine ; at
half-past nine they proceed to chapel ; the chapel service, in the ordinary course
of things, lasts about half-au-hour, or rather over that, and then they go on to
their work again in the same order as in the morning, going on till 20 or 2.5 mi-
nutes past 12, so that the dinner may be served between that and 20 minutes to
one ; all then retire to their cells again, and are allowed an hour up to half-
past one for their dinn(!r; at half past one every prisoner is again set to work,
and continues working until half-past five ; at half-past five they take any further
exercise that may be required ; and from that go on to their cells to their supper,
for half or three (juarters of an hour; after that, every prisoner is required to work
in his cell at industrial employment of some kinder other, until eight o'clock,
when bed clothes are given in, but the prisoners are allowed a reasonable time for
reading, and soon, during that time; at half-past eight every prisoner goes to
bed.

3943- Therefore, to put the whole of those details into a summary, the case
would stand thus : labour about 10 hours in the day ; washing cells, and exercise,
about an hour and a half , cliapel about haU-an-hour ; time to themselves in their
cells for self-instruction, or for making their beds, about one hour, and sleep about
nine hours ?

Yes, tliat is the case.

3944. V.i\\\ of Ditdhji.'] I do not see at what period they take exercise, unless
you consider liie trcudwheel exerciser

There is a half hour of exercise in the morning. As soon as a man is washed
(there is no standing still in the yard), he cojunienccs walking round the
yard. Those who are at work or industrial employment are out a quarter of an
hour befoii- the others in oider that they should h ive their washing and exercise,
and they go up again before the others come from the wheel.

3945. W"\\\ you state to the Committee whether the treadwheel, as you employ
it in iNorwicli Castle, is of the ordinary construction . -

It is in se,)arate boxes entirely.

3946. Consequently

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 375

3946. Consoqiiently, the prisoners are in separate confinement, whilst they G. Finson, Esq.
are on the treadwheel ?

Entirely so. • 2 Sth April 1863.

3947. Have they any opportunities of communicating with each other in coming
to or ffoins: from the treadwhcel ?

No ; the officers are so jjlaced on then- way as to prevent that ; there are four
officers to conduct them from the cells to the wheel. It would be idle to say that
such a thing as communication never takes place ; but, on the other hand, I am
prepared to say that, in a general way, such thing does take [)lace ; there are some
few detections, of course.

39^8. As a general rule they would be detected ?

Yes.

3049. Is there no index or register by which the time of working on the tread-
wheel, and the number of feet ascended are marked?

■^1 he number of feet ascended are registered by the operation of the treadwheel,
and also the speed of the wheel, which is two rounds per minute. At every GO
rounds the wheel by its own operation rings a bell and the men get oft'.

Sg/jo. So that the mere action of the wheel does register the amount of working
that is eft'ected r

It does entirely so. Every prisoner has an oppoilunity of seeing whether he is
doinomore than the reuulations direct or not.

3051 . Do you apply the wheel to any productive labour ?

We apply it first to raising water for the use of the building, and after that it
is used with condensed air, simply with a view of performing labour, so as to
regulate the speed.

3952. That is to siiy, when a sufficient amount of water has been raised, you
pump to waste ?

Yes.

3953. Have yon ever found that any sense of degradation is conveyed to the
minds of the prisoners by that act; or that very great irritation is set up in their
minds against the use of the treadwheel under such circumstances?

Never ; I have never heard a sound of such a thing.

3954. Loid Wodefiouse.] Was the treadwheel formerly applied for the purpose
of grinding corn ?

It was 20 years ago.

3955. Why was that given up ?

Because taking the machinery altogether it was found that the labour cost more
than it produced, and not only so, but you could not work any number of luen
in the same way as we now can.

39.56. Chairman.'] What is the amount of work which is required from every
man at the treadwheel ?

Half-an-hour each time, then resting 10 minutes.

3957. Do yon mean that the 10 minutes follows the half hour, or that it forms
part of the half hour ?

It follows the half hour ; if a man goes to work at half-past six, he will work
until seven, at that time a beil rings, and he gets down, and sits still for 10 minutes,
and then goes on again.

3958. How many hours a day is a prisoner employed on the treadwheel ?
Taking in the 10 minutes, and looking upon that as work, it would be

nine hours.

30.i9- Are there prisoners in Norwich Castle Gaol who do work upon the
treadwheel for nine hours subject to the ordinary reliefs?
Yes.

3960. Do you use the crank at all ?
No, I have no such a thing in the prison.

3961. Have you industrial occupation r
Yes.

(37.1'2.) 3 A 4 3962. Ot

376 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

o. Pinson, Esq. SQ^'^- Of ^^liat iiaturo is it ?

It is of almost every kind. I begin by door-mat making, and things of tliat

28tli April (863. soi-t ; tben ^ve have weaving- in all its branches, almost that I can bring to bear ;

I am not only -weaving coir, matting, carpeting, and everything of that descrijition,

but I am also now weaving our own clothing. We then go on to shoe-makingv
also glove making, and \\e do a great deal of hair picking, and work of that kind
for cabinet-makers ; indeed, every kind of work that I can bring to bear is
done in the prison.

3963. Do you apply industrial occupation as a punishment to short-sentenced
prisoners?
No.

3g64. At what ])eriod in a man's punishment does the industrial occupation
commence ?

It would be useless to attempt to teach a man so as to do much good^
except in hair picking and such like things vnider three months ; 1 rarely take a
man into general industrial employment who is not sentenced to something like
six months' imprisonment.

396.5. In proportion as industrial occupation is allowed to take place, you
would reduce the work on the treadwbeel ?
Yes.

3966. Does every prisoner do some work on the treadwheel, provided that he
is not medically incapacitated during the whole period of his confinement in
prison ?

No, not exactly so ; supposing I take a man oft' the wheel, and he brings to bear
that amount of skill and industry that I think he is fully capable of doing, or
supposing he goes on fully to my satisfiiction, and I see that there is really
a chance of doing the man some good as well, he is kept at some industrial
emjiloyment ; but what I meant by my answer was that every prisoner first of all
goes to the treadwheel labour, and then I judge whether or not there is anything
about the man that is worth my endeavour to take hira off it.

3967. Assuming the case of a prisoner who had been convicted and recon-
victed a large number of times, and upon whom you thought it was impossible to
make any impression by industrial occupation, would you hesitate to keep such a
man, under the present system, at the treadwheel during the whole of his
imjirisonment ?

I would keej) him there tlie whole of his time.

3968. Even though that sentence extended to 18 months or two vears?

I have had but very few cases where a man has been so often in prison as your
Lordship has alluded to, and has had such a long imprisonment as that ; but for
a year I should keep him to the treadwheel.

3069. Have you never found any injurious results from the operation of the
treadwheel which would lead you to suspend its operation ?

There are some cases, imdoubtedly, of men imprisoned for a long period, in.
which keeping them very close at treadwheel labour will bring very strong men
down.

3970. AVhai is the greatest length of time that you think you can allot to
treadwheel labour, in the case of a man who is sentenced to six months ?

I have ])lenty of persons who undergo the entire nine hours per day for six
months, without the labour producing any injurious effects.

3071. But there are otiier Ciises, are there not, in which the treadwheel labour
altogether ceases after a certain period, and it is replaced exclusively by industrial
occupation ?

Yes.

3972. How many hours in the day do you exact that industrial work?
From 10 to 10^ hours.

3973. Lord W(idchoii.-ic.'\ If a man misbehaves himself at industrial labour, do
you put him back to the treadwheel '.

Yes, provided he does not go so far as to commit a breach of prison rules ; but
he does not bring to bear the amount of skill and industry that he is capable
of, I should send him back to the treadwheel, certainly.

3974. Earl

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 337

3974. Earl of Romner/.] A sentence of hard labour, as passed by the Court, is G. Pinson, Esq.

carried out, either on the wheel or at industrial labour, according to your discre-

tion, is it not r ° 28th April i86,i.

Yes, it is so to a great extent.

3975. Earl of Dudley.'] If a man is capable of hard labour on the wheel you
begin with the wheel, do you not, in every case ?

Yes.

3976. Is it considered a punishment by the prisoner if ho is made to go back
to the wheel ?

Yes, he looks upon that as a degradation to him.

3077. He is afraid of that punishment ?
Yes.

3978. Chairman.'] You state that the prisoner looks at it as a kind of de"-rada-
tion ; you mean a degradation in this sense, do you not, tliat havino- been in a
higher class of prison discipline he is put back to the lower class r

Yes.

3979. But you do not mean to say, that work upon the treadwheel produces
in the mind of the prisoner a lowering and degrading effect ?

No, that is not my meaning.

39S0. Do you, with the industrial occupation, assign task-work to the pri-
soners ?

I cannot in many cases very well do that ; we judge pretty well of the men
according to circumstances ; but you cannot, in industrial employment, always
assign a given quantity of work to a man.

3981. Is it not a very great difficulty, in industrial occujjation, to measure the
amount of work by a man's special ability ?

No ; I do not find any difficulty in that at all.

3982. Do you never find yourself deceived in that respect?

It would be idle for me to say that 1 never was deceived ; but, speaking gene-
rally, I do not think that I have been very much deceived.

39S3. Under what circumstances is the instruction given in your prison ?

There is a schoolmaster appointed who does nothing else, and also every officer
of the prison is a kind of sub-schoolmaster ; the prisoner is authorised to ask any
officer in whose presence he is for instruction, and the officer is bound to give him
an answer.

3984. Do you allow the warders to communicate witli the prisoners on in-
different subjects ?

Certainly not, as to general conversation.

3985. Therefore the communication would be limited to a question and answer
with regard to some matter of education ?

Yes.

3986. How often does every prisoner go into school r

Speaking generally, I think they reach the school once a week, but the school-
master also visits* tlie prisoners in their cells, and gives them other instructions
beyond assembling them in the school.

3987. When in school how long does the instruction last?
Perhaps an hour or an hour and a lialf, according to circumstances.

3988. Is it a matter of arrangement between you and the chaplain, or the
schoolmaster, that a certain number of prisoners shall be taken in rotation, from a
certain class, once during every week t

I leave that entirely in the chaplain's hands, unless there is any special circum-
stance that tlie chaplain wishes to communicate to me.

3989. Does the chaplain select the prisoners.for instruction, at his own discre-
tion, from the different parts of the saol ?

Yes.

3990. Does not that lead to some difficulty, and cause some confusion in the
regular distribution of the work ?

(37. 1:3.) 3 B I have

378 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

G. Pinson, Esq. I have not experienced any ; supposing that a man was about any particular

job, for instance, that I really wanted to have him finish, then I have nothing to

28th April 1863. ^^ ^^^^^ ^^ g^^^ ,, J g^^Q^^j^ ^g g^j^j jf ^.^y ^^^^i^i tj^],g p^^ B and C to-morrow

for school, instead of to-day ;" but that is the only thing which has ever occurred,
in any way.

3991. Have you a schoolroom, or do you make use of the chapel ?
We have a schoolroom adjoining the chaplain's room.

3992. What is the number of prisoners engaged in class at the same time?
There would not be above- eight or nine at any time.

309:5. Who would be present in tlie room at the time of instruction?
N'o one but the schoolmaster.

399d. Would you not have a disciplinary officer?

Ko; it is understood that the schoolmaster is to take charge of those prisoners,
and not to allow any communication to take place between them.

3995. Are the prisoners separated from each other by any compartments ?

No.

3996. Are there any separations or stalls in the chapel r

Yes, there are several boxes in the chapel ; tlie chapel is of a semicu-cular form,
and the prisoners are ranged off in classes.

3997. Consequently, are the prisoners in the chapel so separated from each
other that they cannot communicate with each other ?

Only the classes are separate. There are perhaps 20 or 25 persons sitting
too-ether, and one officer is sitting in front, seeing the countenance of every
individual, and another officer is seated behind them, or amongst them, in order
to liear or see anything that might be going on.

399S. Has that always been the system in Norwich Castle ?
Yes.

3999. You are aware that considerable difference of opinion exists with regard
to that system whii-h separates the prisoners one from the other when in chapel by
means of stalls or compartments, and that system wdiich permits of the association
of the prisoners during the hours of service. Which is the system that, from your
experience, you would consider desirable ?

I have not the most remote objection to their being placed in bodies ; indeed, I
give the preference to it.

4000. If I understand you, in Norwich Castle the association is not complete,
inasmuch as tlie different classes are separated off the one from the other ?

Yes, they are, in consequence of the formation of the chapel ; but supposing
that the chapel was so constructed that I could have it on one open inclined plane,
so that everybody could be sitting in such a position that you could see all of them
thoroughly, I should have no objection to their being so placed.

400 I . Do you not think that the absence of compartments leads to a good deal
of communication ?

No, I think not; it is a very rare thing indeed that we have a complaint of
anything of that kind in the chapel.

4002. How many officers liave you in the chapel?

In the chapel there would always be seven officers present, besides myself, and
sometimes eight.

4003. Viscount Everslei/.] How many prisoners do you say there would be in
each compartment of tlie chajiel ?

That dc[)ends upon the class to which they belong ; each compartment would
hold 25 or 2G ; it would depend upon circumstances.

4004. C/iairmau.] Upon what principle would you classify those prisoners;
would it be according to conduct, or according to length of sentence ?

Felons, misdemeanants, prisoners waiting for trial, and so on.

4005. Earl of Dudley^ You do not mix those classes, I presume ?

We do not.

4006. Clmirman.']

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRTSOX DISCIPLINE. 379 ,

4006. C/iain/uiii.l Of course there are always some prisoners in evcrv prison G. Pvuon, Esq.
who are more difficult than others to kee() in order ; would you class all those who ' — ~
were very difficult to manage in one of those divisions? "^ ^ P" ' '^'

I have not had a very great deal of difficulty in that May ; assuming that a man '

was something very bad, 1 should take care that he was by himself in some way
or other ; but I have had so few cases of that kind that no difficulty has arisen;
the numl)er of ])unishments in the gaol I may say has been small, and vet the
fullest order has been maintained.

4007. In the case of prison punishments inflicted for breaches of the prison
rules, have you found corporal punishment very effective ?

I have not applied it for many years ; 1 have no occasion to do so, for the last
16 or 17 years.

4008. Would you be willing to surrender that power ?

I think it as well to retain it ; but 1 am pleased to say that Ave have not found
it necessary to resort to it ; and, bejond that, I may say that it is very rare indeed
that I have exercised the exteiit of my own authority; 1 happened to look into
that matter last night, and 1 found that during 10 years I have only exercised
the extent of my own authority 11 times; that is to say, to the extent of
punishing a man wfth three days' bread and water.

4009. During the course of the time that you have been governor of the gaol,
have there not been instances in which prisoners have attempted to do acts of
violence upon the officers or the Avarders of the prison ?

I have had two instances of that kind since I have been governor.

4010. In such cases, what in your opinion is the proper punishment?

In the case of one of those men, corporal juinishmenc. would have followed,
had the man been capable of bearing it ; but he had palpitation of the heart, so
that it could not be inflicted. But the other case was a very slight matter
indeed.

401 1. May not cases possibly occur in which it maybe desirable to retain
that power?

I think it is desirable to retain the power, certainly.

4012. Are there not cases of repeated disobedience, destruction of prison
property, destruction of clothes, and very filthy and indecent conduct, in which
cases it is desirable to retain the poM'er of inflicting corporal punishment?

I think so.

4013. Do you make any use of the dark cells?
I have not such a thing in the prison.

4014. Where is a man confined when he is punished with bread and water,
and confinement to his cell ?

In his ordinary cell.

■ 401 5. Have you anv good-conduct marks?

4016. Tlierefore I understand that the only punishment which at present is in
force would be the reduction of diet ?

Yes ; confinement to his cell, and reduction of diet.

4017. Do you ever have recourse to solitary confinement as distinguished from
separate confinement ?

It would be solitary confinement, if a man is entirely confined to his roll, and
not allowed any communication. Supjiosing I find it necessary to continue the
punishment to any extent, he does not come into the yard when any prisoners
are there, or come into contact with them in any way ; consequently, it really
becomes solitary confinement.

4018. Has he not the power of communicating with the different warders and
turnkeys r

Yes.

4019. Earl of Dudley.^ Does not he see you every day ?
Yes.

(37. 12.) 3 B 2 4020. Does

380

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

G. Pinson, Esq. 4020. Does not he see the chaplain every day?
Yes.

28th April 1863.

4021. Does not he see the surgeon every day ?
Yes.

402 _'. Then it is not solitary confinement, being only as solitary as you make it
by withdrawing the man from the yards ?

In all cases where a man is sentenced to solitary confinement, he must see the
officers of the gaol. I am bound to see every prisoner in solitary confinement, and
so are the surgeon and the chaplain.

40-23. So that even the case of solitary confinement admits of his seeing three
or four or five persons every day ? .

Yes.

4024. Chairman?^ What is the scale of diet which is in use in your gaol ; is it
framed upon the Government scale ?

Yes.

4025. Is it the same as the Government scale ?

Yes ; this is the dietary table {delivering in the same).

4026. In your opinion, is that scale satisfactory?
To my mind it is.

4027. Are you of opinion that the first and second classes afford a sufficient
diet for the prisoners who are sentenced under those classes ?

Speaking of seven and 21 days, I think they are.

4028. You consider that the amount of dietary is just what is required by
prisoners under these circumstances ?

I do.

4029. Do you consider that the 4th and 5th Classes are rather high ?
Provided we really carry out a wholesome system of discipline, I think they are

not; when I say a wholesome system of discipline, I mean such discipline as
ought to be carried out ; and then 1 really do not think they are too high.

4030. Can you suggest no amendment in your scale of dietary ?
Conscientiously, I cannot.

403 1 . Do you believe that each stage is suitable to the different classes of
prisoners to whom it respectively applies ?

I do.

4032. Lord Steward.] Do you think that a reduction of that scale would have
the effect of deteriurating the condition of the prisoners ?

I do, decidedly.

4033. You tliink it is not more than sufficient to keep them in a healthy con-
dition ?

I tliink not ; particularly when I recollect what I have seen in the case of pri-
soners under the old dietary, which was not so nutritious as the present ; and I
know what the effect of that has been : it has led me to that conclusion from
constantly seeing them reduced bv scurvy to such a state that you could carry out
no discipline upon them.

4034. Earl of Dudley^ Is not that more as regards the material than the
quantity ?

I do not think they get too much to eat.

4035. Lord Steward.] Do you think that, without rendering the food less
nutritious, you might advantageously render it less palatable ?

Perhaps you might in some way do that, but I certainly would not alter the
quantity of nutriment, by any means.

4036. Earl oi Dudley.] Do you make every prisoner who comes into your gaol
pass through every degree of diet ; that is to say, when a man first comes in, does
he begin with the lowest diet?

No ; we put him at once upon the diet to which he belongs.

4037. Viscount

SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON' DISCIPLINE. '381

4037. Viscount Everski/.] You do not consider tliat there is an excess of meat G. Pinson, Esq.
in tlie prison diet r

I do not. 28th April 1863.

4038. Duke of Richmond.] When you state that you take the prisoners off the
wheel and put them to industrial labour, are the Committee to understand you to
say, that you do not do that in the case of sentences under three mouths?

No, I do not think it is at all worth while.

4039. What is the short time that they remain upon the wheel before you put
them to an industrial occupation }

That depends a great deal upon the man himself, and the opinion that I may
form of him and all the surrounding circumstances ; some, perhaps, are taken off
in a month's time, and some in two months.

4040. You state that the opinions that you form of a man influence you in
putting him to industrial labour. What are the opinions that you allude to, and
what means have you of forming them ?

I first look at all the circumstances which I can possibly gather in reference to
the man himself; what his circumstances in life arc ; whether it is his first offence,
and various other things ; and then I also see what his conduct is, whether he
really promises anything that is worth doing; and then after that, if I become
satisfied that there is a reasonable chance of his doing any good, and profiting by
industrial employment, I try him.

4041. You say that you take all the surrounding circumstances into considera-
tion, and you also say that if you think he can be profitably employed you give
him a chance ; do you mean that a man who did not display any talent or aptitude
for industrial labour would be kept to the treadwheel, whilst others who evinced
aptitude for it would be jiut to industrial labour ?

That would have some bearing upon it, undoubtedly ; but all that my obser-
vations meant was, whether I thought the man could be profitably employed
to himself as well as to the county; whetiier I thought he was such a person
as that his being employed in industrial occupation would be beneficial to
himself.

4042. Would the question as to whether it is any benefit to the county or not
enter into your consideration?

Not as much as whether I could benefit the man.

4043. Viscount Eversley^ Would it enter in any degree into your considera-
tion ?

If 1 thought that he was of no use at all it Avould be no use employing him.

4044. Earl of Ducllei/.] If you get a Norwich man, and he knows a trade, are
not you inclined to put that man to labour which will begin to pay, as soon as
possible, instead of wasting his powers at the w heel ?

Not unless he showed that in a satisfactory way to me.

4045. The object of the noble Duke's inquiry is this ; are you governed as to
your punishments by the consideration whether money can be made in order to
pay the expenses of the gaol, and so save the county from expense.

Not so much by that as I look to the discipline and to the benefit of the man
himself.

4046. Duke of Richmond.'] The power of taking a man from the wheel and
putting him to industrial labour, is solely in your hands and in your discretion, is
it not ?

It is pretty well so. Of course, if there is anything upon which I feel it is
necessary to consult the visiting justices, I do so. The plan is, that each visiting-
justice takes a month, and he visits the gaol once a week during that month, and
then an}' circumstance that may occur to myself during the week, I mention to
the visitor for the time being.

4047. Have the visiting justices laid down any code of rules which would direct
you in your conduct in this matter ?

They have not.

4048. Then it is entirely left to your discretion, suliject to any consultation
which you may think advisable to have with the visiting justices ?

Yes.

(37. i-,.) 3 B 3 4049- ^"'i

382

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

G . P bison I JEsq.

4049. And It might so happen, might it not, that for a long period you mio-ht
g , . ., „ never resort to the visiting justices for their advice ? "^

2»tii Apni 18D3. jt j„igi^t ^jg go^ jf tj,gj.g ^^.^g nothing to need it.

40,50. Lord Wodchouse.'] Is not that system open to this objection, that it
leaves so much to the discretion of the governor, that it is possible that the
governor might be oppressive to the prisoners ?

Of course he might be so, umloubtedly ; but at the same time I think I may
say on the other side, that tlie gaol being visited, as it is, every week, and the
prisoner always having opportunities of complaining, I do not see hovF very much
oppression could possibly take place.

405 T. Do you think that, by a system of marks or good conduct badges, that
objection might bo remedied r
Yes, I think it might.

^052. I mean, would not the visiting justices, if a prisoner was obliged to gain
so many marks before he was placed at industrial labour, liave an ojiportunity of
knowing at any time whether any given prisoner had been treated according to
the rules laid down .-

Yes, undoubtedly.

4053. Lord Steward.] Is it your primary object to reform or to deter a pri-
soner r

I embrace both those objects, of course.

4054. Do you conceive that the system now in force in yonr gaol has that
double effect ?

I think it has, to a very great extent.

40,55. Can you reasonably hope to reform a prisoner who is sentenced for a
short period ?

For a very short period it is nothing but punishment, of course.

4056. Has the number of re-committals increased or diminished in the last few
years, since your present system has been in operation ?

Taking them at an average of 10 years, my re-committals come out as near as
possible to one in six ; I have had within the last two years a slight increase of
re-committals, but I attribute that in a very great degree, and without, I hope,
saying too much, to the circumstance that in the last two years I have
had a fresh class of prisoners, namely, prisoners brought to me from other
prisons ; I camiot quite say whether it is due to that entirely. In 1 853, I had
831 conmiittals, and 159 re-committals; in 1854, 794 committals, and 129
re-committals; in 1855, G88 committals, and 105 re-committals ; in 185G, 542
committals, and 81- re-committals ; in 1857, 557 committals, and 78 re-com-
mittals; in 185S, 597 conmiitials, and 95 re-committals ; in 1859, 520 commit-
tals, and 88 re-committals ; in 18G0, 483 committals, and 97 ro-committals ; in
1861, 691 committals, and 119 re-committals; in 1862, 862 committals, and
172 re-committals ; making a total of 6,565 committals, and 1,123 re-committals
in the last two years is something like one in five.

4057. Can you give a similar table for the preceding 10 years ?
No, I cannot.

4058. Chairmanl] Have you any suggestion which you would wish to make to
the Committee ?

No.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Thursday,
One o'clock.

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 383

Die Jovis, 30° Ajmlls 1863.

LORDS PRESENT:

Duke, of Richmond. , Earl Cathcart,

Duke of Marlborough. Earl of Ducie.

Marquess of Salisbury. | Earl of Dudley.

Lord Steward.
Earl of Carxarvox.
Earl of RoMNEY.

Viscount EVERSLET.
Lord "WODEHOUSE.

Lord Wensleydale.

THE EARL OF CARNARVON, in the Chair.

WILLIAM LINTON, Esquire, is called in, and examined as follows :

Evidence on
Prison Discipline.

W. Linton, Esq.

4050. Chairman.l YOU are Governor of the West Sussex County Gaol at , ., „^

Petworthr 3°thApnI.863.

I am.

4060. How long have you held the office of Governor of that gaol ?
Six and a quarter years.

4061. 'Wliat office did you hold previously ?

I have been a governor of prisons over 1 5 years, and a subordinate officer suf-
ficiently long to make it over 20 years.

4061*. Earl Cathcart.l Had you been brought up in a prison during your
previous life ?

I have been for more than 20 years a prison officer. I commenced at 18
years of age.

4062. \Miere chd you commence your prison duties?
At PentonvUle.

4063. How long were you at Pentonville ?
Four years and a half ; from the opening.

4064. Consequently the whole question of prison disciphne has been very
much before j-our mind for many years past ?

It has.

4065. Wliat is the average number of prisoners confined in the West Sussex
gaol ?

The number varies very much indeed ; I left 89 prisoners there this mornuig ;
last quarter the daily average was 92, and sometimes it is as low as GO.

4066. Is that gaol on the separate system?
It is a modified species of separation.

4067. Will you explain what you mean by that ?

I mean tliat the separate system is not carried out in all its strictness ; every
prisoner has a separate ceU, but we bring them together at chapel ; our aning
yard is an open }'ard, and not walled off separately ; at the wheel the}- can see
each other, though they are not allowed to communicate ; and while the}- are on
the wheel they are in separate compartments : when working at the cranks
they are kept of course more strictly separate.

4068. Are the cells certified by the inspector ?

They are not, and the probable reason of that is that the separate system

originated at the Petworth gaol, and we consider that we have a prescriptive

(37. 13.) 3 B 4 right

30th April 1863.

384 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

TT. Linton, Esq. right to use them without a certificate ; at any rate I know that we carry out
the separate system as strictly as is clone in many certificated prisons.

4069. What is the size of the cells ?
We have 30 cells 1 3 feet by 1 0 feet area, and nine feet high to the crown of

the arch, and 60 cells nine feet l)y six feet area, and 10 feet high, square.

4070. Practically, therefore, those cells are not very inferior in size, and in
the amount of air that they contain, to those ^lls that are oi-dinarily certified by
the inspector ?

I think those cells that are 1 3 feet by 1 0 feet area are much superior to the
ordinary run of separate cells ; and the others are a very fair size for limited
terms.

4071. How are they ventilated ?
They are ventilated externally and internally ; it is not upon the modern system

of ventilation, but still it is an effective one.

4072. Has the inspector ever raised any question on the ground of the cells
not being certified by him ?

He has not.

4073. I presume that }'ou mean by internal and external, that the ventilation
is partly external and parti}' internal ?

Yes ; there is a window which opens to the external air, so that it can be
admitted directly.

4074. Earl of Romiiej/.^ ^Vhat causes the internal flue to act ; what causes the
current of air ?

Our prison stands high.

4075. With what does that flue communicate ?
With the passages and with the roof.

4076. Chainnan.] How many visits does the inspector pay in the course of
the year, as a general rule ?

I have been at Petworth over six years, and I believe he has paid four -visits
in that time.

4077. That is, in point of fact, not one -^dsit in a year ?
It would be about one in every year and a half.

4078. During the course of his visits, how long a time is he within the gaol .'
I think he is there from about two to three hours.

4079. Does he pass through every cell ?
He does.

4080. Does he speak to every prisoner?
He does.

4081. Does he subsequently communicate wdth you?
He does.

4082. Does he leave any record of his visit in AATiting ?
He does not.

4083. The amount of time given to 3'ou and to each individual prisoner must
necessarily be very small r

Yes, it is necessarily so. He sends for the prisoners, and he tells them who
he is (of course in the absence of the officers), and he asks them if they have
any com])laint to make, or anything to say to him.

4084. Is the discij)line of your gaol, in your opinion, a severe cUscipline ?
I think it is decidedly severe.

408,5. What is the form of hard Ial)our that you use?
The treadwheel and the com])ined (u'ank.

4086. Do you also make use of industrial occui^ation ?
We do.

4087. In your ojiinion, therefore, you would draw a strong distinction between
the crank and the treadwheel as hard labour, and the industrial occupation as a
lighter form of labour ?

I would.

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 385

I would. I consider tlie crank and the treadwheel to be strictly penal W, Linton Esa.
labour. " ' '

4088. Will 30U be good enough to explain to the Committee the construction ^ ^'
of the treadwheel which is in use at the Petworth miol ?

The treadwheel is constructed for the double action of hand and foot. The
prisoners, of course, labour outside the v.heel. I have cut out of an old book
on the treadwheel, which I have b}' me, some diagrams which will probably ^"^'' ^PP^°<^'^-
explain the construction much better than anything 1 can say, if the Committee
will permit nie to hand them in (dclhwrhi// in tlie .■^aiiic). The one is a section
showing the mode in which the handrail is worked, as well as the wheel and
the other is a longitudinal section.

4089. Is there an}' mechanical difference between the wheel which you use
at Petworth and the wheel as it is used in the majority of prisons ?

I never saw a wheel like that at Petworth, and I ha^e seen a great number.

4090. Is it an effective wheel ?

It is much more effective than the ordinary run of wheels, because the man
has to use his hands as well as his legs ; and, indepenilently of the punitive
part of the matter, I think it is beneticial physically ; the strain upon the system
is, however, mvich greater.

4091. How long is it since the wheel at Petworth was constructed?

I am unable to say, but I ajiprehend that it was constructed at or about the
time of the Prison Committee in 1835.

4002. Did those diagrams come out of the Report of that Committee ?
No".

4093. Is there any other peculiarity belonging to this wheel that you could
specify to the Committee ?

No, except that while the men are at work they are in separate compart-
ments, and, which I think objectionable, it is in an inclosed apartment.

4094. Is there not sufficient ventilation ?

I do not think that there can be in an}' inclosed a])artment with such a
number of men in it at a time, and engaged in work of that kind.

4095. How many hours at a time are the men kept ujion the wheel r
They are em})loyed now about nine hours daily at the wheel.

4096. Does the nine hovn-s apply to the lowest class of penal discipline, or is
the nine hours' work exacted from all the jn'isoners ?

From all the i)risoners ; we make no tUstinction in that respect.

4097. Do you employ any prisoners nine hours on the treadwheel, subject, of
course, to the ordinar}' reliefs in tlie course of the da}' ?

Yes, I employ all for that period who are emplo} etl at the treadwheel.

4098. How man}' men are emplo}ed upon the treadwheel at the same
moment ?

Our wheel is 32 feet long, and it takes 1 (i men on at a time ; that is allowing
two feet per man. As we work it in sections, the reliefs would be 10, 15 at work,
and 10 sitting down.

4099. Are the men separated while they are relieved from work ?

The seats are placed diagonally ; I had them placed so myself, at as wide a
distance apart as the size of the building permitted ; and an officer is in the
centre, whose duty it is to see that not a word pq^ses from one to the other
at any time that the wheel revolves at its'jjroper speed, and that the men
take their reliefs in due order.

4100. Is the treadwheel applied to productive labour ?
Not at all.

4101. Is it ever used for any productive piu'jiose :
No, for nothing but piuiishment.

4102. Can }()u inform the Committee what the effect of that is upon the
temper of the men ; have you ever seen any signs of irritation on the part ot the
prisoners at being employed at unproductive labom* ?

I think not ; but I have at the severity of the labour.

(3;. 13.) 3 C 4'03- Witnesses

386 :,IINUTE3 OF EVIDENCE TAKEN. BEFORE THE

jy. Linton, Esq. 4103. Witnesses have given evidence before this Committee that, in their
A — '\ or opinion, tlie use of the treadwheel, especiall)" where it is appUed to unproductive

'^^ ^^1 ^'' purposes, creates a sense of degradation in the minds of the prisoners, and great

irritation and exaspei-ation ; is that )'our opinion ?

Tliat is decidedly not m}^ conviction. I think that, generally speaking, the
prisoners are perfectly indifferent as to whether it is productive or unproductive ;
hut I do not consider it necessary to tell a prisoner that the labour he is doing
is throwii away, unless it is by way of remonstrance to him, pointing out to
him the folly of his committing crime and coming to prison to encounter such a
punishment.

4 1 04. Earl of Dndlei/.^ He does not volunteer to remark r

He does not ; generally speaking, if there is irritation, it is at the quantity of
the work that is exacted fi'om him.

4105. Chairman. ~\ Is it probable that if that irritation had existed the fact
must liave come to your knowledge ?

I should say so, undoubtedly ; but much depends upon the administration of
the prison. I do not encourage those things. I tell the prisoner, " There is
your work ; you must do it ; it is my duty to see that you do it ; and whUe you
perform your work properly, I have notliing to say to you."

4:06. Earl oi Romne}/^ WixQw you say the quantity of work that you exact
from him, do you mean to convey the idea that it is within your power to exact
what )'ou please, or do you mean that the men are aU employed on work as the
rules of the prison require r

Yes ; I ought to have said such work as the rules of the prison require from
them. That is what I meant by my answer.

4107. Earl of Diidlej/.^ Do not you think that a man in that rank of life has
veiy little concern as to whether the labour is producing anything or not ?

Very little indeed.

4108. The reasoning power does not go to that extent, you think, in persons
in that rank of life ?

I do not think it does.

4 109. Chairman.'] Is the crank in use in your prison r

We have but one separate crank in our prison.

4110. Have you a crank which is constructed with one continuous shaft r
Not one continuous shaft, because I have separated it so that some men

might be constantly employed at useful labour, others partly at useful labour
and partly at useless labour, and others again simply at punishment labour, which
is entirely useless.

4111. To what useful purposes do you apply the crank ?

Our useful labour is raising water for the service of the prison.

4112. Do you alternate the use of the crank with that of the treadwheel ?
I do occasionally.

4113. Do you not consider that that has a beneficial effect, as calling the
different muscles of the body into play, and suiting different classes of prisoners r

I should think it would l)e so as a matter of theory ; but as I have never
turned my attention much to that point, I am scarcely able to answer the
question.

41 14. Besides the crank you have spoken of, do you use the cellular crank ?
W^e have but one.

4115. Is that a model of it which 3'ou have brought with you ?

It is not a model of mine ; but it is a model of a great number which are in
use in the East Sussex prison.

4116. Are you satisfied with the cellular crank which you have in use at
present in your gaol ?

I am not satisfied with it ; I have seen a gi-eat number that I prefer to it.

4117. Is the principle of that crank the ordinary principle of the hard laboiu"
cellular crank ?

It is the principle, though not exactly so, of the railway break, it is a
break of metal against metal ; that is the friction.

411.S. There

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 387

41 18. There is this objection, is there not, to that crank, that by reason of If^-Linim, Esq.
the friction tlie metal expands, and consequently the work veiy often becomes j], ^~j' , gg
greater than it is intended the prisoner should do ?

That is the case with ni}' crank ; but I have procured this morning from an
engineer at ClerkenweU, a model of a crank which is very perfect in that respect ;
it has a sort of compensating balance, so that when the metals expand, relief is
given by the mechanism of the crank,

41 19. Wliose patent is that crank r

Mr. Underhay ; an engineer and brass founder in ClerkenweU.

4120. Will 3"ou be good enough to explain to the Committee in a few words
what the principle of this model which is upon the table is ?

In the cell the casing which you see here would be fixed over the crank, to
prevent the prisoner tampering with the mechanism of it. The important
principle of the crank is that it has a compensating s^jring, so that when the
metals expand reUef is given ; and if from fresh oiling it works too easily, then
it compensates the contrary way, and so keeps an equal fi-iction applied at all
times.

4121. Have 3'ou the jiower of weighting that crank to any extent ?

Yes, to any extent. The minimum power, however, is seven pounds ; but
it can be weighted to any extent as the maximum power.

4122. What gives that pressure of seven pounds ?

You will observe a hollow tube, and a thing called a plunger runs down it ;
water is placed in that tube, when the action of the plunger causes a resist-
ance of seven pounds in the working of the crank.

4123. Therefore, under all circumstances, the pressure which would act
against the jirisoner woidd he seven pounds ?

Not less than that.

41 -j.^. And you may augment it by putting on additional weight?
Yes.

41 25. In 3 our opinion, is the use of the cellular crank of value in a prison ?
I think it is a most valuable instrument of punishment.

4126. Would you appl3' it to productive purposes, or to non-productive
purposes /

I should appl3' it l;)oth ways ; or, rather, the cellular crank to non-productive
purposes ; but, for moral reasons, after I had punished a man b3' putting him to
the cellular crank working un])roductivel3', I should wish to put him to some-
thing useful. I should wish to i)ut him to grinding corn, or breaking stones, or
some other kind of hard labour which was nseful.

4 1 -'7. I observe that that model crank has an index in it, by which the
number of revolutions are recorded. Is it, in 3'our opinion, an important object
that that index should be kejit within sight of the prisoner in order that he may
see the register of the nimiber of turns which he performs r

Yes, certainly. I do not ^vish to irritate a i)risoner's mind in an3' wa}^ which
it is possible to avoid ; I should wish him to know the amount of labour that he
has performed. If it is not within his view, he would be in the dark, as it
were.

41 2 >. In the crank at present in use in the Petworth gaol, is there an index r
There is an index.

4129. Have you found any advantage from that f

Decidedl3', because it enables me to know whether a man has done the
quantity of labour I require him to perform.

41 30. Is that index within sight of the prisoner?
It is.

4131. Earl Cathcart.'] Are the Committee to understand that 3'ou have only
one cellular crank in use in 3'our prison ?

Only one.

(37. 13.) 3 c 2 4132. Then

388 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

II'. Linton, Esq. 4< 32. Then your experience is limited to the use of that one crank ?

Except tliat I have seen it to a large extent in visiting: other prisons, and that

sotl) April 1863. I have conversed with my hrother gaolers upon this subject.

4133. CJi(drman.~\ Do jou make any use of the shot-drill?
We do not.

4 134. Would you see any objection to using it r
No, to a certain extent, I should not.

41 3.5. Do any of your prisoners pick oakum ?

No ; we have better employment for our prisoners than picking oakum ; but
oakum jjicking is very good emj)lo}'ment for those who are not ph3'sicall}' equal
to the treadwheel, or the crank, or for those who are not sentenced to hard
labour, as the commencement of their probationary punishment.

4136. Do you consider that picking oakum is hard labour or light labour, or
something intermecUate ?

It may be made very irksome labour ; I do not think it can ever be made
hard labour, because the man is on a geat all daj".

4137. You have stated that you have industrial occupation in 3'our prison ;
will you inform the Committee what it consists of.'

^lop-making, which emlsraces picking, carding, and spinning wool, &c. ; mat
making ; ships' fender-making ; weaving canvas, sacking, and towelling ;
making corn and coal sacks, rick and wagon cloths ; weaving cocoa-nut mat-
ting, cider cloths, rugs and blankets for prison use, horse rugs ; rope-line and
t\^'ine-making ; also nets and halters, and such things as those.

/jiSS. Do you measure the work done by the piece or by task work?
I do not ; I require the prisoners to be moderately industrious, and I rarely
find it necessary to complain of a prisoner being indolent.

4130. If you have not task work, what clieck have 3'ou ujjon the prisoner?
I take an account every iMonday morning of the quantity of work he has per-
formcvd during the previous week.

4 140. Is there much supervision during the time he is occupied ?

There is not ; it is a general supervision ; the prisoners are visited occa-
sional!}'.

4141. Do 30U find it possible to estimate Avhat you consider to be a fair day's
work r

I do.

4142. Do you find that the men prefer industrial occupation to hard labour
at the crank and the treadwheel ?

Yes. generally ; there are exceptions.

4143. Earl of JD«r//c_y.] You stated, did you not, that there were a certain
numlx-r of ]n-isoners who were not sentenced to hard labour ?

There arc.

4144. A])out what proportion ?

The pro})ortion, since the alteration of the law two years since, has been very
small, because the magistrates have power now to connnit men to hard labour
for assavdts, and therefore the proportion has very greatly diminished. I could
not, at the present moment, give the proportion; but I could ascertain it by
refen-ing to my register.

414.5. C'ould you give the Connnittee anything like an idea of what it is,
because in some prisons it is so small that it is scarcely v^orth)' of notice i

I could not now. It • probably would not be more than two or three per
cent. It is very small since the alteration of the law two Mars since, at the time
of the passing of the Criminal Consohdation Statute.

-II4O. Therefore, of course, the general regulations of the prisons are for
those who are condemned to hard laboiu' ?

Now it is so, much more tlian formerly. At that time we had a great deal of
imprisonment without hard labour.

4 147. Do you consider that any hard labour carries out the sentence passed
upon the piisoner, except the treadwheel and the crank ?

I do,

SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 389

I do, certainly ; if I a:ot a fair day's work out of a man I should consider that w Lmton, Esq.
I was carrying out his sentence. '

4148. In one word, in industrial occupation or other things than the wheel 3oth April 1863.
and the crank, you consider that )'0U can get a hard day's lahour ?

I do.

4149. I thought you stated that you were content Avith a fair day's labour?
Yes ; that is what I should understand as carrjing out the sentence of hard

labour, because the limited diet of a prisoner would not enable him to perform
an unduly hard day's labour.

4150. Do 3'ou, in the exercise of 3'our disci-etion, consider that as soon as
a prisoner comes in, su})posing him to be able-bodied, }'ou may at once put him
only upon industrial occupation r

I do.

41 "51. And you think that that equally carries out the sentence upon him of
hard labour r

I think so, but much must be left to the discretion of the governor, because
some men are physically unfit to perforin hard labour.

4152. But with regard to men who are physicall}' fit for labour, what, in the
exercise of your discretion, do you consider to be the meaning of the sentence of
hard labour as passed in a court of law ?

If a man performs a fair day's labour, I consider that I am carrpng out the
sentence.

4153. You have stated to the Committee that your treadwheel is 32 feet
long, and that there are 15 men employed on it at a time, and 10 on relief;
that is 25 men ?

Yes.

4154. Tlie 25 men are not the average of those who in your gaol are con-
demned to hard labour, are they ?

No.

4155. You stated, chd you not, that you left 89 prisoners there this morning?
I did.

4156. \Miat would be the proportion of men to women ?
Seventy-nine men and ten women.

4 157. Out of those there are not above two or three that are not condemned
to hard labour, I presume ?

I doubt whether there is one convicted prisoner that is not condemned to hard
labour.

4158. Therefore, you have 79 men that have been sentenced to hard labour?
Yes.

41 59. And as a matter of course some of those have performed a certain por-
tion more or less long of their sentence ?

They have.

4160. Of those men how many do you state work at the treadwheel or crank,
if you have one, per diem ?

I can give the Committee a return of the emplo3'ments yesterday ; I make two
returns, one of the number in custod}% and another of their emplojment ; the
numbers yesterday were 79 males and 10 females, who were employed as
foUows : males, picking wool, three ; carchng and spinning wool, seven ; winchng
and twisting, one ; making mops, one ; making ships' fenders, two ; making door
mats, two ; dressing hemp, one ; employed in rope walk, one ; weaving towelHng,
one ; sewing sacks, one ; shoemaking, one ; tailoring, one ; at the treadwheel,
20 ; at the cranks, 24 ; at the crank in cell, one ; cleaning prison, four ; cooking
two ; unemplojTd, three ; discharged, three ; total unlocked, 79. Females at
laundry and needlework, 10.

4161. B}^ that list it appears that there are 20 upon the wheel, therefore the
wheel could be occui)ied during the whole of the working hours of your gaol,
because it would require 25 to till it ?

Yes.

(37. 13.) 3 c 3 4162. Do

390 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

]]'. Lintoii, Esq. 4162. Do you Say that you consider that the treadwheel power, which j-ou

have, together with the crank power, is sufficient for the average number of

3oih April 1863. prisoners sentenced to hard labour who are heahhy and capable of doing

work?

It is so in our gaol, connected v.ith the trade work ; the wheel and crank
power alone would not be sufficient. I could onh' employ 55, and I have now
75 con\-icted males in the prison.

4163. "\^liat is the principle on which you select the men to go to the
treadwheel ?

I take those who appear to me to be the worst characters, as it is the severest
labour, and those who are recommitted again and again. The worst characters
are generally sent to the treadwheel, and those who are i)h}'sically the best
fitted for it.

4164. Do ycu exercise that discretion throughout the whole of a man's
sentence ?

If I find a man failing in health, I remove him from the wheel.

41 6,5. If not, what do you do ?

If not, I do not keep a man at the wheel for too prolonged a period.

4166. After a certain time, if the man behaves well, do you remove him fi-oni
that primitive labour, and give him industrial occupation at lighter work r

Yes ; if his sentence is sufficiently long to justify my doing so. It takes some
time, of course, to teach a man.

4167. Are the cranks productive .-

Partiall}' so ; they are emplo}-ed for the purposes of raising water.

4165. That work is completed before the day is very far gone, is it not?
No ; and if it is, I keep them raising water, and the water runs off.

4169. You have 24 men at work upon the cranks, and 20 upon the tread-
wheel ; is that (juite as much of strictly penal labour as }'ou want for the
average number of prisoners which ^our gaol contains ?

It is.

4170-1. You stated that your recommendation would be that cellular cranks
should be unproductive ?
Yes.

4172. ^^^ly?

M}- feeling is, that during the earlier part of a man's sentence it should be
purel}^ punishment, to make him realise his position in prison, and the conse-
quences of his wrong-doing outside.

4173. Then you wish the Committee to understand, that you do think that
hard crank laboiu" without producing anj'thing is the hardest form of labour,
and that a man would feel it to be the hardest form r

Yes, and I think as a matter of discipline, it is decidedly beneficial.

4174. Your next step would be to take him from that, and put him to pro-
ductive penal labour as being the first step towards lightening his sentence ?

Yes, I should consider that was a step ujiwards in the wa}' of moral reform.

4' 75. And the third step would be industrial occupation :
It would

41 7i"i. As a rule, supposing that it could be made to pay, would not you rather
have all the labour that is performed in the gaol productive of something r
I would not, for the reason that I have stated.

4 1 77. Kiivl {){ JJiicic.l^ Is the productive treadwheel labour a lighter punish-
ment in point of labour, than the uni)roductive treadwheel labour .'
I think it ma}' be made equally severe.

41 78. Is that so, in yoiu- prison ?

No ; there is no distinction ; our wheel is not productive ; the cranks are
partially produc^tive, but the labour is ecjually severe with them as with the mi-

productive ones.

4179. You

SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 391

4170. You stated that you would raise the prisoners from the unproductive W.Linton, Esq.
crank to the productive crank ?

Yes. ' 301I1 April 1863.

41 80. Is that practically so ?

It is not ])ractically so now ; I act according to what seems to me best ; I
mean that if there was an established rule, I should wish it to be so.

4181. Earl of D«f//f'j/.] You state that you have only one cellular crank;
does that produce nothing r
It produces nothing.

4 1 82. Earl of Difcie.^ You stated just now, that you did not think it had any
effect upon the mind of a prisoner, whether he was working at productive or un-
productive labour !

Yes ; at jn-esent, I do not think it produces any effect in that respect in
Petworth Gaol, because I do not think that the men know whether their work is
valuable or not ; they may aU fancy they are working at productive labour.

4183. How would you make productive labour more pleasant to them than
unproductive ?

I would take care that all knew it ; I have brought with me a proposal for a
graduated system of prison discipline, and my vdsh would be to print it and hang
it up in every prisoner's cell.

4184. Earl of Rom net/. 1 With regard to labour on the treadwheel and other
labour, which do you reckon the most severe .''

The treadwheel.

418.5. Supposing that one man is sentenced to four months' hard labour, and
another man to six months' hard labour, as the court or judge supposed to be
right accorcUng to the nature of the crime, it is in your power, is it not, acting
as you beUeve according to the law, to put the man sentenced for six months
into the factory and that description of hard labour, and to put the other man
on the treadwheel ?

At present, I beUeve, it is within my power.

41 86. Then, in point of fact, is it not the case that the man whom the Com-t
has sentenced to the severer punishment, because of the aggravation of his
crime, gets a less punishment than the man who is sentenced to four months'
imprisonment ?

Yes, it is, but I wish it to be otherwise ; only having the power, I exer-
cise it.

41 87. In such a case, as I have mentioned, it would be defeating the intention
of the Court in passing that sentence, would it not ?

The disciphnary officers have to consider many things ; they have to con-
sider the j)/iisiqife and the morale of a man ; some persons are very much
depressed in mind, and various circumstances arise which require our considera-
tion, in deciding upon how we should treat a man, and how we should employ
him.

4188. That is to say, leaving out of consideration the case of a man who
fi'om physical. inability could not be put upon the wheel, but assuming two men
of equal strength, do you consider that you have that power to which I have
referred ?

I consider that at the present moment I have the power to employ them in
any way that I think proper in the gaol. At present, there is no definition of
hard laljour.

4189. If the Court sentenced a man to hard labour, that clearly means the
hard labour which is provided in the particular gaol ; and you admit, do you
not, that woi'k in the factory and other work, is less hard labour than the tread-
wheel .-

Yes, I do.

4190. Sometimes, quite at your own discretion, you put a man to any des-
cription of labour, and another man to another, although both may be perfectly
capable of the hardest labour?

Quite so.

(37.1.3.) 3 c 4 4191- Uuke

392 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

W. Linton, Esq. ^^()\. Duke of i?/f/;/wo«f/.] The question raised is this. Supposing there are

A T 8'" ^^^° ^^^^^^ sentenced, the one to four months' imprisonment and the other to six

30 1 pi I I 03. jjjQj-^^-j^g^ ^j^g \\\ia\ sentenced to six months heing the greater criminal of the

two, might you put the latter at the industrial labour, and the man sentenced to

four months at the hard labour ?

I might.

4192. But should you do so ?

I think it is very probable that I should in some instances ; because I should
think that the man imprisoned for four months, had better be kept at hard
jienal labour throughout the whole of his sentence, and the man sentenced to
six months' imprisonment I should prefer bringing other agencies to bear upon.

4193. Then it is possible that you Avould not jnit the man sentenced to six
months to hard lal)our ?

I should conunence with it ; I generally put them to the treadwheel at the
commencement, but not as an invariable rule.

4194. But, generally speaking, all prisoners sentenced to hard labour, and
physically able to go either ui)on the treadwheel or the crank, would go or
either the w^heel or the cranks at first ?

They would.

41 9,5. Earl of Dudh'ij^ But that is not the rule ?

That is not the rule, especially if it were a very prolonged sentence, because
I should not wish to debilitate a man.

41 96. Duke of Richmond^ But the generality of jirisoners sentenced to hard
labour would commence upon either one or other of those machines ?

Undoubtedly they would.

4197. Marquis of Sulisfjurj/.^ You state that in long sentences you would not
put a man upon the treadwheel for fear of debilitating him ; do }'ou find that
the treadwheel labour does debilitate prisoners ?

Undoubtedly.

4198. After what time ?

I think the process commences immediate!}' ; because, treadwheel labour
is very severe labour ; the men descend from it in a state of perspiration, ahnost
invariably.

4190. How do )'ou ascertain that a man is debihtated?
I judge by his appearance and manner.

4200. Do you weigh him ?
No, we do not.

4201. Earl of Rom/wj/.'] Is the labour upon your treadwheel very much more
severe than upon the ordinary treadwheel r

No, I do not recjuire' the man to work hand and foot invariabl)- ; I would not
do that ; Ijut I think our wheel is more severe than usual, from the circumstance
of its being in an enclosed apartment, where the atmosphere gets heated.

4202. Earl of Dudlej/.^ Is it enclosed over head ?

Yes, it is enclosed over head and all round ; in fact, I have sketched out a
plan which I intend to bring before the visiting justices for altering it.

4203. Earl of Rinii/ict/.l You mean, do you not, that )'our treadwheel is not
more severe, 1:)ut that it is more injurious in its effects ?

It is more injurious in its effects.

4204. ChdiniKui.^ Are tlie Committee, therefore, to understand from the
evidence which }'ou have given, that that which you designate as hard labour,
either at the (n-ank or at the treadwheel, should be, at all events, at the founda-
tion of any general ride of prison (Useipline.

I think so.

4205. At the same time you would make full allowance for good conduct in
prison, or extra effort on the part of a ])risoner ?

As a matter of theory I would not ; I should ])ut him for a fixed period at
hard labour with no hope of aii}- amelioration until that period had expired.

4206. Would

SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE.

393

4206. Would you not admit of some encouragement by the prospect of '^^- Llniop, Eaj.

ultimate amelioration or relief ? „„,, , "^ ,.,-
T 11 1 1 11 3oih April li-.O'.
1 would, undoubtedly. .

4207. Have you considered that branch of the question ?
I have.

4208. Can you explain to the Committee in what way you would give
practical eifect to that prineii)le ?

If the Committee will permit me, I will read a proposal I have brought
with me for a graduated scale of discipMne, which I think would be well adapted
to ordinar}' prisons generally.

The Witness read f/ie foUowuiff document :

Propo-al for a graduated system of Prison Discipline, for use in ordinary Prisons, with

remarks explanatory of its details, &c.

Petwoktii Gaol and House of Correction.
Notice to Prisoners.

Prisoners are informed tliat, after conviction and sentence, they will be subjected to a
graduated scale of discipline, when (in order to develope persevering industry and good
conduct) their advance will depend upon favourable weekly reports, to be made on the
back of the " Register Tickets" suspended in their cells.

There will be four stages or gradations of discipline, and the shortest time to be passed
in each will be as follows : —

On First Conviction.

taTAGES.

First.
Second.
Third.
Fourth.

Prisoners sentenced to

Three Months, and

under

Six weeks.
Remainder of sentence.

Over Tliree and not
more tlian Six Months

Seven weeks.

Remainder of sentence.

Over Six Montlis

Eight weeks.

Remainder of sentence.

Second Convictions : Time passed in each stage doubled.

Third and subsequent Convictions : Time passed in each stage trebled.

Disciplinary Stages or Gradations.

Penal Class.

First Stage. — Party-coloured clothing, common exercise, if employed in cell; " guard"
and straw bsdcveiy alternate night. School, two hours weekly ; useless labour at cranks
or trcadwhcel and shot-drill. No lettei's or visits, and no books, except bible, prayer,
hymn, and one school-book.

Second Stage. — Clothing as above. Special exercise, two days weekly. Straw bed.
School, four hours weekly. Useful labour at corn-grinding, stone-breaking, water
pumping, and similar employments. Reading books. May send and receive one letter, or
receive one visit from friends.

Industrial Class. _•

Third Stage. — Plain clothing. Trade-work employ, exercise, bedding, and school as
above. Library books, letter or visit as above.

Fourth Stage. — Clothing, bedding, employment, and books as in last stage. School and
study two half-days weekly ; or, in lieu thereof, one additional hour's exercise daily.
Special exercise every other day. Letters and visit every alternate month. White
instead of brown bread, and eight ounces extra per diem. Prisoners for special prison
service (such as cooking, baking, &c.) to be selected from this class.

Note. — All prisoners will commence at the first or lowest stage ; and, after their
advance, may be put back one stage at a time for misconduct.

(By order.)

(37.13.) 3 D 4209. According

394 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

ir. Linton, Esq. 4209. According to this plan, there would be only two stages with regard to
_,. r~; 861 those who are sentenced to three months and under?
^^______ Only two ; because, I think, short sentences should be made as severe as

possible.

4210. You would recommend six weeks for the first stage, and the remainder
of their sentence in the second stage ?

Yes ; on second convictions, the time passed in each stage is doubled.

42 I 1. Consequently, in the case of a prisoner sentenced to three months and
under, instead of having six weeks in the first stage, he would have 12
weeks ?

Yes, he would have 1 2 weeks under the severest punishment that the rules of
the prison authorised.

42 1 J. And in the case of a prisoner sentenced to over three months and under
six months, he would have 14 weeks, instead of seven, upon the second con\ic-
tion ; and in the second stage he would again have 14 weeks ; and in the third
stage he would again have 14 weeks, in lieu of seven; and in the case of a
prisoner sentenced to over six months, instead of having eight w'eeks in the first
three stages, he w^ould have 1 6 weeks ?

That is so ; it is in order to make the punishment progressively severer for
repeated convictions. Upon the third and subsequent convictions, the time
passed in each stage should be trebled. I go upon the principle of making the
punishment severer each time, up to a given jjoint.

4213. Will you now state in what way you would distinguish those classes?

I have endeavoured to distinguish them in this way : " Disciplinary stages,
or gradations. Penal class: 1st stage; Party-coloured clothing; common
exercise, if emplo}'ed in cell. Guard and straw bed every alternate night.
School, two hours weekly. Useless labour at cranks or treadwheel, and shot
drill. No letters or visits, and no books except bibles, prayer, h3'mn, and one
school-book." The second stage would be still in the penal class. " 2d stage.
Clothing as above. Special exercise two days weekly ; straw bed ; school, four
hours weekly ; useful labour at corn-grinchng, stone-breaking, water-pumping,
and similar employments : reading booI<s : may send and receive one letter, or
receive one visit from friends," while in that stage. Then I should promote
them to the industrial class. The third stage would be, the first in the indus-
trial class. I should dress them in plain clothing, employ them at trade-work,
and give them exercise, bedding, and school as in the second stage ; they should
also have the use of Ubrary books, and receive one letter or one visit from
friends while they were passing through that stage. Then they would be pro-
moted to the fourth stage. There the clothing, bedding, emplojment and
books would be as in the last stage. School and study, two half-days weekly,
or, in lieu thereof, they should have one additional hours exercise daily ; special
exercise every other day ; and should receive letters and visits every alternate
month ; and have white bread instead of brown, and eight ounces extra per
diem. Prisoners for special prison service, such as cooking, baking, &c., would
be selected fi'om this class. And there is a foot-note to this : "'juI jjrisoners
will commence at the first or lowest stage ; and after their advance, may be
put back one stage at a time for misconduct." That would be the notice that
I would sus])end in every prisoner's cell.

4214. When you put back a jirisoner to the stage immediately preceding,
would you propose that he slioukl work out his full time again in that stage ?

Yes. I have not turned my attention muc^h to this \y.ivt of the subject, but
I think, if he is put back, he should work the full time in the precetliug stage ;
he would be the less likely to offend again.

4215. The Committee understand, therefore, that your proposal is, that there
should be two classes, one a ])enal class, and the other an industrial class ; that
the penal class should contain two stages, and the industrial class two stages ;
that the basis of the penal class should l)e ])unishment rising from unjjroduc-
tive labour to productive labour ; and that the industrial class should be a grada
tion of encouragements and rewards for good conduct r

Yes ; of jirison amelioration. I ha^e written a few exi)lanatory remarks, if
the Committee will permit me to read them : " This proposal is put forward

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 395

more as a starting-point for consideration than for any inherent mei-it it ma}^ ff- Linton, Esq.
possess. The subject is a new one in common pris^ons, and requires anxious — —

and careful consideration to elaborate, and practical experience to finally decide." ^° ' P" ^ ^'
I do not think that we can decide without first testing the thing. " It com-
mences with the severest discipline, I believe, possible to succeed, hut has a
continuous element of encouragement (in the weekly reports and j^eriodical promo-
tions) which mil buoy up the prisoner s mind and stimulate his energies to attain
the privileges of the higher classes ; these 'privileges' may appear insignificant to
free men, but will be regarded as of value and importance by those confined to
the gloom and monotony of a prison cell. To prevent too great an amount of
priutmg or reading (in connexion with this scheme), there could be printed on
one sheet a very short abstract of general rules for the information and guidance
of prisoners, then graduated scales, and last dietaries." I think every prisoner
ought to know what he should receive in the way of food, and if it is printed on
one sheet of paper, it is all there compact before him.

4216. Earl of DikUi'j/.'] With regard to all those scales to be hung up in the
cell, and also with regard to the bible, prayer-book, hymn-book, and so forth,
nine-tenths of the prisoners cannot read, can they ?

They can.

4217. Is it so large an average as nine-tenths ?

No ; I should say that the majority of the prisoners can read in our part of
the country. I insert in tlie register of every prisoner, on his admission,
whether he can read or write or not.

42 1 8. Have most of them been indebted to your prison for a knowledge of
reading and writing ?

Certainly not ; the great mass of prisoners that come to me are casual
offenders ; they come once, and I do not see them again.

4219. Earl Ca f heart. 1 It would appear fi'om the judicial statistics for 1861,
that one-third of the prisoners in Petworth Gaol can neither read nor write ; do
you think that is correct 1

Yes.

4220. Ckairmrni.^ Will j'ou proceed with the proposal which you were read-
ing to the Committee ?

I fiu-ther propose, " That every prisoner may at once understand his position
and duties, an officer should be told off daily to assemble those newlj^ received,
and read and explain such rules and leacling points of discipline. Register
tickets should be on stout paper, or common cardboard, and ruled on back as
required. Every Monday they would be produced (with week's work, or accom-
panied by warder's report) to the governor, and necessary endorsement made
thereon. When the governor is unable to attend to this duty, it should be
done by the chief warder, but by no other officer. Endorsements (as to conduct,
&c.) in one or other of the following words : ' Good,' ' very good,' ' incUflferent,'
'bad,' ' very bad; ' and the number of ' good' reports, or their equivalent, must
correspond wth the number of weeks in the scale before promotion. In the
above scheme, ' common exercise ' means walking and running in Indian file ;
' special exercise,' a sort of drill (such as ' extensive motions,' marking time,
&c.), which can be performed upon fixed points, allowing prisoners to stand
about five yards apart each way, and which is more healthful than mere walk-
ing. ' Reading ' books are to be understood as those of a religious and scholastic
description. ' Library ' books, as suitable secular works. Prisoners not sen-
tenced to ' hard labour ' could be allowed the option of working at nseful labour,
instead of picking oakum (by weight) while in ' the penal class.' "

4221. Chairman.'] This graduated scale which you have proposied to the Com-
mittee, is simply framed upon what you consider would be a desirable change ?

It is ph)'sical discipline first, and moral discipline to follow where the deten-
tion was sufficiently prolonged.

4222. Have you any system of marks at present in force in your prison ?
No.

4223. Have you any system, which at all represents this scheme of encom'age-
ment, in your prison ?

We have not.

(37.13.) 3 D 2 4224. Why

390 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

li: L-utun.Esq. 4224. A\'hy have you never attempted to cany out such scheme ?
30th A^i863. ^ ^^^'^ "°* ^^^^ justified in doing anything of the kind.

4^2,5. But in your opinion, this would be a desirable change ?

I think it would.

42 2G. Marquess of SaIishuri/.~] The expense of feeding prisoners at Petworth
Gaol appears to be considerably higher than at Lewes ; that is to say, 1 /. per
annum more. Is there an}- reason for that ; is your diet fixed by the Secretary
of State r

It is a dietary that has been approved of by the Secretary of State.

4227. Is it a general approval, or is it a special dietary which was submitted
to him ?

A special approval.

4228. Is it the one suggested by the Secretary of State, or is it a special
dietary proposed by the Justices ?

It is a special dietary proposed by the Visiting Justices, and approved by the
Secretary of State.

4229. Have you a copy of it ?

Yes, I have ; I have brought a copy of the prison rules, and wiU put it in
(^deliver in ff in the same.)

4230. How many classes of dietary have you ?

There are five classes, exclusive of the punishment classes.

4231. Is it pretty nearly the same as that suggested by the Secretary of
State"?

I think it is more severe in some respects, and less severe in others. It is
an-anged for daily dietaries : " Class 1 . For terms not exceeding seven days —
breakfast, eight ounces of bread; dinner, one pint of gruel ; supper, eight ounces of
bread. Class 2. For terms exceeding seven, and not more than 21 days — break-
fast, eight ounces of bread and one pint of gruel ; dinner, eight ounces of bread ;
supper, same as breakfast. Class 3. Prisoners employed at hard labour for terms
exceeding 21 da}s, and not more than two months, and prisoners not emplo}ed
at hard labour for terms exceeding 21 da3S, and not more than three months —
breakfast, eight ovmces of bread and one pint of gruel ; dinner, Monday, Wednes-
da}-, and Fi'ida}', one pint of soup and eight ounces of bread ; Sunday, Tuesday,
Thursday, Saturday, one pound of potatoes and eight ounces of bread ; supper,
same as breakfast. Class 4. Second-class debtors, and prisoners for trial, on remand,
and for want of sureties : also convicted prisoners employed at hard laboiu* for
terms exceeding two and not more than four months, and prisoners not
employed at hard labour for terms exceeding three months — breakfast, eight
ounces of bread and one i)int of gruel ; dinner, Monday, Wechiesdaj', and Friday,
one pint of soup and eight ounces of bread ; Sunda)', Tuesda}-, Thursday, and Satur-
da}-, four ounces of meat with bone, and (before being cooked) half-a-pound of
potatoes, and eight ounces of bread ; supper, same as breakfast. Class 5. Con\icted
male prisoners employed at hard labour, for terms exceeding four months —
breakfast, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, one pint of cocoa or milk, and eight
ounces of bread ; on other days, one pint of gruel and eight ounces of bread ;
dinner, Monday, Wednesday, and Frida}', one pint of sou]), half-a-pound of potatoes,
and eight ounces of bread ; Sunda}', Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, six ounces of
meat with bone, and (before being cooked) one pound of potatoes and eight ounces
of l)read ; supper, one pint of gruel, and eight ounces of bread. Class (5. Pi'isoners
under punishment for not exceeding three days, one pound of bread per diem.
Class 7. Prisoners under ])unishnient, jjursuant to section 42 of the Gaol Act ;
breakfast, one ])int of gi'uel, and eight ounces of bread ; dinner, eight ounces of
bread ; supjjcr, same as breakfast. Female prisoners, and boys of not more than
1 4 years of age, to have the diet of the first four classes above, except in the article
of bread, of which they are to have six ounces per meal instead of eight ounces."
The ingredients of the soup, gruel, and cocoa are as follows : " The soup to contain,
per pint, four ounces of uncooked meat (with bone), three ounces of jjotatoes, one
ounce of rice, and one ounce of onions, a seasoning of pei)per and salt, and to
be made from the liquor in which the meat was boiled on the preceding day.
The gruel to contain, per ])int, two ounces of Scotch oatmeal, and to be sweetened
every alternate day with three-quarters of an ounce of molasses ; on other

days

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 397

days to be seasoned with salt. The cocoa to contain, per pint, one ounce of. '^- -^"''ow, Esq.
cocoa nibs, three-quarters of an ounce of molasses, and two ounces of milk." j^ April 1 86q

423?. That accounts, does it not, for the increased higher expense of the —

dietary in j^our gaol ?
I think it does.

4233. Earl of Du(Uei/.'\ Do you give the hard-labour diet to those who are
employed in industrial occupation r

I do.

4234. Do not j'ou know that the hard-labour scale was made out on purpose
to meet the requirements of loss of strength arising from hard labour on the
wheel or crank ?

I do not find our scales any too high for the prisoners.

423.5. Do you think that cocoa nibs are necessary to be given to prisoners, or
cocoa at all?

I think that a change of diet for prolonged periods is very essential.

4236. Would you say " yes " or " no " whether you think cocoa is necessary?
I do, if I am to give a simple answer to the question in that form.

4237. Do you not think cocoa is a luxur}'?

I think it is essential. I think there should be a change ; men's stomachs
pall, and they are unable to take the food if it is continuously of one kind.

4238. Does not the workman in a state of liberty have the same diet, without
any change whatever, the whole }'ear round ?

I do not think you can (h'aw any parallel between the two, because the cir-
cumstances of the prisoner are so entirely different fi'om those of the workman
at large ; the latter has stimulants, and narcotics, and spirits, and he has not the
very gi-eat confinement that the prisoner is always labouring under.

4239. Putting the moral consideration of confinement out of the question, do
you not consider that the labour itself is about as healthy a system as could be
devised for a man ?

Yes ; but in prison, I think, hard labour is very debilitating.

4240. There can only be one debihtating element, which is that of the mind,
the sense of restricted freedom ?

No ; I think that there is physical debilitation constantly going on.

424 1 . WiU }'ou tell the Committee whether jou think that any amount of
hard labour at the crank or treadwheel amounts to anything like the hard
labour that is done by a healthy man out of doors ?

I think decidedly it does ; indeed, I think it is greater. I have stout, strong
navvies committed to iny gaol, and I find that they lose flesh, and very soon get
reduced in strength, when I put them to the treadwheel, and I find it neces-
sary after a time to remove them from it.

4242. Chairman?^ You stated that you do not weigh them ; how do you know
that they lose flesh .'

I can very soon judge by my sight. I see a man's arms get less, and he gets
pale, and I am quite positive from my own judgment that he loses flesh fast.

4243. Earl of nudity.'] Do you consider, so far as good health is concerned,
that it is absolutel}' necessary that a man should weigh exactly the same when
he goes out of the prison as he does when he comes in ?

Certainly not, for health ; but I think he should not be reduced too low.

4244. Lord Wodcltoxse.'] Are you not sur})rised to hear that the medical
officer of one of the largest prisons has stated that a prisoner can exist for
several months on oatmeal and potatoes exclusively ?

I should be surprised to hear such a statement if the prisoner were kept to
hard labour.

4245. But if kept to hard labour }'ou would not think it possible ?
I should doubt it myself.

4 246. Earl of Dudley.'] Do not you think that the quantity of cereals wiU
make up for the loss of meat diet ?

(37. 13.) 3 D 3 That

308 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

//'. Linton, Esq. That is more a medical question than a disciplinary one, but I should think
. r~T Of;, iiot. 1 think that meat is essential ; in certain instances in our dietaries, for three
Aveeks and under, we do not give any meat whatever.

4247. Do }'ou propose wdth that modified system of prison discipline, a sketch
of which A'ou have put in, to give also a conformably modified diet ?

No. I think that a man should commence with the diet that it is intended to
give him throughout, except as a reward for good conduct, at a given period ; for
you generally find that more or less they fail, and require medical indulgences
at a certain time. I should wish to give him an increased diet as a matter of
right rather than as a medical indulgence.

4248. Therefore, if a man is sent to you, we will say for 21 days (and that is
to be a short sentence, which is to be carried out entirely on the wheel, accord-
ing to your proposal), do you intend to gi-»'e him the hard-labour diet ?

I should give him Class 2, which is a very low diet.

4249. "\Miat diet do you propose to give at the diiferent periods for which you
have told us you intend to keep the prisoner at hard labour r

I would have a graduated scale ; according to a man's sentence so should be
his diet.

4250. There are now the lowest, the 2d, the 3d, the 4th, and the 5th scales of
diet?

Yes.

4251 . You do begin upon that ?
Yes, I begin upon that.

4252. But as you propose, according to your system, to put a man upon hard
labour at once as a rule in a gaol for all terms, whether short or long, but in the
case of the longer ones to be modified by degrees, do you intend that all should
begin at the lowest point of diet ?

No ; it shovdd be a graduated diet, according to the sentence. If a man was
sentenced to a prolonged period, he should commence at once with the proper
class of cUet, which is the highest.

4253. Do not you see that that is a set-off to your proposed system of hard
labour in your gaol ; you are going to make the rate more absolute in the gaol
than it has been before, and to give hard labour to the men Avhen they come in,
and \o\\ propose to modify that by degrees ?

Yes.

4254. But per contra you are going to give the men the fuU diet that he is
entitled to for hard labour as soon as he begins at that hard labour, so that the
punishment of a low diet for 2 1 days, or even for a longer time, is done away
with, which is a set-oif to j'our hard labour ?

It is done upon this principle, that the short sentences shall be made as severe
as possible, and that is why these dietaries have been so graduated. When a
man comes in for six months, I give him the fifth class of chet at once ; he does
not commence with the lower diet, otherwise we should have that man in the
surgeon's hands innnediately.

42.55. Tliat is your belief?

I am certain of it ; it wovdd reduce the strongest man to such an extent that
he could not go through a prolonged period, and perform the work required of
him without failing.

42.56. You are proposing to make hard labour the rule of yoiu* gaol ; but instead
of beginning, as you now do, with the lowest scales of diet, you are going to give
at once the hard-labour diet ?

^Ve do not begin now with the lowest scale ; if a man comes in upon a
sentence of six months, he commences with the fifth class of diet, and continues
on that throxighout.

42;)7. Putting the question of labour on one side for a moment, do you not
think that it would ])e advisable that every prisoner who comes in, whatever his
term, should Ix'gin with the lowest scale, and go on to the other stages of
diet r

Certainl)- not ; I should be ver}' sorr)' to see that required.

4258. Do

SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON" DISCIPLINE. 399

4-258. Do you not think that if there Avas a loss of weight in the first in- W. Linton, Esq.
stanee, which is to be attributed to many things besides tlie prison discipline, — -

such as the loss of liberty, the great change of the way in which the man has ^°^ '^P''' '^^3-
liyed (because in that rank of life there is a great deal of eating and diinking,
wheneyer they haye the means, which of course tends to keej) up the strength
of a man, and the loss of which causes that depression), all that would be
rajjidly re-established as the man went on fi-om degree to degree of diet ?

I think not ; I think that there are yarious considerations wrapped up in these
questions, moral and mental as well as physical.

4259. Would you tell the Committee what the number of }'our recommittals
are ?

I cannot ; I haye not before me the list, and I do not thiidc that an}' list of
recommittals would be at aU a fair test of the effect of our disciphne, because
West Sussex is peculiarly circumstanced at i)resent ; there ai'e a great niunber
of tramps passing through, attracted by the fortification works going on at
Portsmouth and other public works ; they get connnitted to me, and I am very
particular in tracing their antecedents when I can ; many of them haye been in
prison again and again, but they haye not been recommitted to Petworth Gaol.

4260. Do you know, of your own knowledge, that a great number of the pri-
fioners who haye served their time in )'our gaol have gone into honest employ-
ment afterwards ?

Yes, I do.

4261. Do }'0U know an}- who have been twice or more m your gaol that have
done the same thing ?

Yes, I know that they have gone to hard honest emplojTnent subsequently.

4202. When would you say that, as a rule, the professional thief or jn-ofes-
sional convict begins ; would it be after the second offence ?

I can hardly answer that question ; I do not think that you find in the rural
districts many professional thieves, vmless they come by chance there ; that
applies more to towns, and large towns especially.

4263. Earl Cathcart.l It appears from the judicial statistics of 1861, with
regard to recommittals to your prison, that about one-third of the whole number
are recommitted ; are those statistics probably coiTcct ?

No doubt they are.

4:264. It appears, by the judicial statistics of 1861, that the total commitments
were 382, and 114 were recommittals ; is that so ?
Yes.

4.26.5. These figures are probably taken from your own returns?
Yes, they are ; but that does not apply to Petworth ; I endeavoured a few
minutes since to assign a reason for that.

4266. Earl of 2);f<//ey.] Would you separate the prisoners any further than
you do at present ?

No, I do not wish to go any further.

4267. I mean, would you extend it to separation in the chapel ?

No.

4268. Would you go so far as to require them to wear masks, to prevent re-
cognition ?

No. I learnt the discipline at Pentonville, and there it was carried out to the
full extent ; but I do not consider it at all necessary in ordinary prisons, what-
ever it may be in convict prisons.

4269. Would you be glad to have cranks in aU your cells, so that }ou might
be able to put the prisoners to work on the separate system ?

Not in all of them ; I should wish to have a certain number (perhaps 30 per
cent, ma}' be the proportion) that 1 should like to be able to put to work
sepai-ately.

4270. Viscount Everslei/.l Would it not be more desirable to have the cranks
in a separate shed in the open air r

(37.13.) 3 D 4 I thudc

400 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

ir. Linton, Esq. I think that depends much upon the situation of the prison: if it is on an
•~'~ elevated site, and buildings are simply arranged, and a good system of venti-

3otli April 1863. ^j^j-Jqj^ (^>f^j^ ]3P carried out, it is much better to have them in the cells ; but if the
prison were a mass of buildings, impeding ventilation, and on a low^ site, sur-
rounded perhaps by high buildings outside, I should prefer taking the men out
of their cells for the purpose of performing hard work such as crank labour.

4271. You think that no inconvenience could arise from employing a pri-
soner at hard labour in his own cell ?

I should prefer it, if the ventilation was good, as it not only operates to keep
the men more under control, but is an advantage on the ground of economy
and simplicity.

4272. Earl of Diidh'j/.] Your idea is that this is the gi-eatest punishment you
can inflict upon a man, that it is to be separate confinement ; that it is to be the
crank labour, which you can make as hard as you like already ; that the pri-
soner is to be without even seeing the others, and that his labour is to be non-
productive ; you propose that that shall be the first form of your punish-
ment ?

Yes ; I think that that is as severe a punishment as you can hope to carry
out successfully.

4273. Lord Wodelionse.'l When you say that you think there would be no in-
convenience from the em})loyinent of prisoners at crank labour in their own
cells, do you say that from any practical experience of such a system ?

Yes, to. some extent ; I have been in various prisons, and have observed the
state of the cells, and to a Hmited extent I have it in my own prison.

4274. You have not found that any inconvenience to the health of the
prisoners has arisen fi'om it ?

No ; I think I said before, that if there is a good system of ventilation, I do
not think that much harm can arise.

4275. Marquess of SiiIisbnr>/.'\ Do you find any difficulty in producing evi-
dence of the previous convictions of prisoners who are tried ?

No great chfficulty, except that the sessions come simultaneously all over
England, and very often it is difficidt to spare an officer for the purpose.

4276. Do you find that the allowances are sufficient ?

I should not like to make a remark against them, because I have never per-
sonally found any difficulty on that point ; I remember an instance not long-
since in which I sent the chief warder to identify a man, and when he came back
I asked him what allowances they gave him, and he told me he was 3 s. out of
pocket by the journey.

4277. Chairman.'] Have you ever considered the expediency of identifjing
previouslj^-convicted prisoners, either by means of photography or by affixing
any particular mark upon them ?

I think photography most useful at the headquarters of the police ; and
I should wish to have all criminals who are sentenced to penal servitude
branded the same as they brand bad characters in the Army ; they brand them
now with the letters B. C. I have had a great number of them in the prison
so branded, and I should like to have convicts sentenced to penal servitude
branded with the letters P. S., but not in the case of other prisoners.

4278. Earl Cathcart.~\ When you use the term branded, you mean indelibly
marked, do }ou not ?

Yes.

4279. Chairman.] Have you ever found the advantage of those marks with
regard to military offenders who may have come into tlie prison ?

No, I have not ; but 1 frequently get men wlio I am morally certain are
returned convicts ; their reticence, however, is so great, that it is impossible
for me to trace their convic^tions or their antecedents, so as to prove it.

4280. Do you ajiply that suggestion to penal-servitude men or to persons
convicted a second time ?

I should appl}- it to penal-sen-itude men only.

4281. With

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 401

4281. With regard to prison punishments, what are those forms which are ^^- Linton, E^q.
most common in your prison ? 30th a^\ i8(;.3.

Stoppage of diet and confinement in a hght or dark refractory cell. .

4282. Do you find that the stoppage of diet has a tendency to irritate the
prisoners ?

No, I do not. •

4283. Do you ever make use of corporal punishment ?
Very rarely.

42 84. Wlienever you have used it, has it been for serious offences?
It has been for repeated acts of misconduct.

4285. Have you found it effective ?
Very.

4286. You would consequently beunwiUing to part with the power of making
use, of coqjoral punishment ?

Most unwilhng. I tliink it is a most useful punishment.

4287. Have you ever known it ineffective ?
Only in one instance.

4288. Only in one instance during the whole course of your experience as a
governor ?

Yes.

4289. Have you had any experience of Discharged Prisoners Aid Societies?
I have not.

4290. Are you of opinion, from what you know of them indirectly, that the
operation of them is beneficial ?

I think it is mostly so, from what I have learned.

4291. Marquess oi SalisburT/.'] Is there any particular scale of allowance
made to prisoners to reach their homes after the expiration of their sentence in
your gaol ?

No ; the magistrates leave it to me to act according to circumstances in
giving the prisoner a httle help on his discharge ; any special case I should
bring under their notice, and they would decide upon it.

4292. Is it generally a sufficient sum to carry them to their homes ?

Not in all cases. I should not think that desirable. I give the man a little
to help him on his way. If a prisoner is from London, as many of them are, I
usually give him 1 5. or 1 s. 6 d. and his day's provisions. I know that he can
reach London in two days.

4293. Chainnan.'] Some of the witnesses who have given evidence before this
Committee have stated that, in their opinion it would be a desirable change to
send the prisoners to chapel three times instead of six during the week, and
twice on Sunday ; is that your opinion also ?

Certainly ; I should diminish it rather beyond that ; I think twice in the
week and twice on Sunday would be quite sufficient.

4294. Do you entertain that opinion from the belief that the senice becomes
monotonous to the in-isoners, and that the whole thing is a matter of routine ?

I think so, decidedly.

4295. Do you believe that the prisoners would take a greater interest in the
service if the number of times at which attendance were required were lessened ?

I do.

429(). Lord Wodchouse^ Do you see any objection to giving the prisoners
who have earned money by their own industry during the time that they have
been in prison some portion of it, as a gratuity, on their going out ?

I should prefer giving them the gratuity independently of any prison labour.

4207. When a m:in has behaved well, and also earned money by his labour,
should you see any objection to giving him a portion of that money on leaving
the prison ?

(37. 13.) 3 E I should

402 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

JF. Linton, Eeq. I should prefer doing that through the agency of the Discharged Prisoners Aid
Societies.

30th April 1 8G3.

4298. Earl of Romu<'i/.~\ With regard to the chapel and the services, what
services are performed now in the chapel every day ?

Two services on Sunday, and every day prayers and a portion of Scripture ;
we use a selection of the pra}%rs, not the entire service.

42g9. \Miat time does that occupy ?
Half an hour.

4300. If that time were shortened, so that it occupied ten minutes or a
quarter of an hour, would you prefer that, or ha-ving the service as it is now,
and the man attending it t\vice a week ?

I would rather prolong the service, but I would not have it daily ; it should
not come as a matter of course every morning, so that after a while it became
common, and considered a mere matter of routine.

4301. Earl of Diidlcj/.'l Do you not think that the same argument would
ap])l\' to it when the day for chapel came round r

I do not.

4302. Do not }'ou think that if you have failed to produce that state of mind
in a prisoner which would be benefited by having daily chapel, it would be
very much the same thing whenever it occurred, except on Sunday ?

No, because it would not be so common ; it would rather tend to exalt the
services of the chapel, I think ; the prisoners now look upon it as a matter of
routine, going to chapel before they go to labour, and it is a very unnatural
state of things to them, because the class from whom criminals are ordinarily
drawn are quite unable to attend a place of worship during the week-days.

4303-4. F.ar\ of Rom nej/.~\ "\^^^len you say that the service occupies half an
hour, do you mean the actual time in chapel, or does it include the time
occupied in going to and froni chapel ?

The time in chapel at Petworth occupies probably twenty minutes.

43(5.5. Chairman.~\ Have you any fiu-ther suggestion to offer to the Com-
mittee ?

I think that Sunday evening is a period of gi'eat restlessness with
prisoners generall}', and I should wish the evening service to be really in the
evening instead of the afternoon, as is generally the case now. To do that, the
statute would require some amendment.

4306. ^larcjuess of Salisbun/.l Can you refer to the statute on that point ?
The 4th of George IV., chapter G4, section 30, says this : " And be it further

enacted, that every such chaplain shall on every Sunday, and on Christmas-day
and Good Friday, perform the appointed morning and evening services of the
Church of England, and preach at such time or times between the hours of nine
and tive of the day as shall be required by the rules and regidations to be made
as directed by the Act."

4307. Earl of Diidh'ij.'] Do you think that such an alteration as you recom-
mend would lead to very great objection on the part of the chaplains ?

I think not.

4308. At what time of the day are your ser\'ices held ?

Our services on Sunday arc at half-past eight in the morning and half-past
three in the afternoon, and on week-dajs at nine o'clock.

4309. Chairman.] You would propose that it should ])e left optional with the
auth()riti(^s of each gaol to fix the service at the time which is most convenient ?

Yes.

43 10. Have you any suggestion to make with regard to the books for the use
of the prisoners ?

I think a revision of the statute is desirable upon that point. The 2d and
3d of Victoria, chapter .'ie, section 6, rule 8, says : " No books or jmnted papers
shall be admitted into any prison l)ut those which shall be chosen b}- the chaplain

for

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 403

for the use of prisoners belongiug to the Estabhshed Church, and by the visiting W. Linton, Eig.

justices for the use of the other prisonei-s." There is an a])peal to the Bishop in

case of difference of opinion. I thhik that equal power should be given to the 3oth April i860.
visiting justices to select books to be read by the prisoners. '

43 1 1 . On what ground ?

I have seen a novel in a prisoner's cell before now.

4312. Was that inti-oduced by the chaplain?

I cannot say how it was introduced, but I have seen a popular novel in a
prisoner's possession ; and it struck me at the time that that seemed to show
that some alteration was necessary in the way of providing books for the prison.
I do not know who introduced it, nor do I remember at the moment in what
prison it was that I saw it.

4313. Duke of Marlborough.^ It was not in a prison under your control ?

No.

4314. Chairman^ Is there any further suggestion which you wish to make ?
^Mth regard to infants being admitted with their mothers, I think that some

limitation should be placed upon that practice.

431 5. \Miat is the practice at present ?

Cliildren are brought with their mothers, and it is a very difficult thmg for us
to say that we will not take them in, and they are mostly admitted. I should
propose to deal with them according to age ; if the child was 12 months old, I
sliould propose to give power to the governors of prisons to reject the child, and
the policeman should either take it to the workhouse or return it to the friends
of the prisoner.

431 6. Is there any limitation at present as regards age ?

There is no hmitation ; the rule, I presume, is understood to be, that if the
woman is suckMng a child, the child shaU be achnitted, but if not, it shaU not be
admitted ; but that is by no means the practice.

4317. Up to what age are children admitted, within your knowledge?

I have had children brought to my prison with mothers certainly up to two
years old, but I have not Uked to take upon myself to reject the children.

431 8. Is there any further suggestion that you wish to make ?

The consoUdation of the criminal statutes of the Session before last has
provided that imprisonment without hard laljour may be imposed for most of
the offences therein enumerated ; at present, by the law, a prisoner sentenced
to imi)risonment without hard labour, may provide himself with the prison al-
lowance of food, and if he has the means of providing it, he may hve in idle-
ness ; that seems to me an anomaly.

43 1 9. jNIarquess of SaUshuri/.'] Can you produce any authority for a prisoner
contined for any criminal offence having such chet as he chooses ?

The 4th of George 4, chapter 64, section 38, provides : " And whereas persons
convicted of offences are frequently sentenced to imprisonment without being
sentenced to hard labour ; be it therefore enacted, that it shall be lawful for two
or more visitmg justices of any prison to order that all such persons confined in
such prison in pursuance of any sentence or conviction, excejjt such prisoners as
shaU maintain themselves, shall be set to some work or labour not severe."
That is ulterpreted that the prisoner may maintain himself.

4320. Does that mean a prisoner convicted for a criminal offence ?
Yes.

432 1 . Earl of Budley.'] If he does maintain himself, accorcUng to that, you are
not at liberty, are you, to put him to any, even hght labour ?

I am not.

4322. Lord Wodehouse^ Is it the case that he would have the prison diet by
pa} ing the expense of it, or would he be allowed to provide himself with any
other diet ?

He would not be allowed to provide himself with any other diet. Perhaps
(37. 13.) 3 E 2 your

404 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

ir. Linton, Esq. ^^^^^^, Lorclsliips will allow me to read the rule of the Petworth Gaol upon that
3otli April 1863. pomt : Rule 93 says, "No pi-isoner confined under sentence shall receive any

. food, clothing, or necessaries, other than the prison allowance, except by direction

of the surgeon, and under special circumstances, to be judged of by one or more
of the. visiting justices, in writing ; nevertheless, prisoners sentenced to imprison-
ment without hard labour may provide for themselves the daily allowance of
prison food instead of being compelled to maintain themselves by work or labour
not severe.

4323. Marquess of Salisburj/.^ Is that rule construed that they may exceed
the prison allowance ?

No ; but that they may purchase the prison allowance, and live in idleness.
That is the way in which I construe it.

4324. Duke of Richmond^ I understand you to state that the late legislation
has tended to make it optional as to whether a prisoner should or should not
have hard labour r

It has.

4325. And you point out this as an objection to those sentences ?

I think that it is one which should be brought under the notice of the Com-
mittee.

4326. Lord Wodelwuse?^ Wliat suggestion do you make for altering the law?
Simply to repeal that part of the clause.

4327. ^^^lat portion of the law do you object to, and what portion do you
think ovight to be altered ?

I think that portion which authorises a man sentenced to imprisonment with-
out hard labour to provide himself with food without working for it should
be altered.

4328. Would you provide that every man, whether sentenced to hard labour
or not, should be put to labour ?

Yes, he should be put to labour of some kind after conviction.

4329. Earl oi Romtm/^ Under what section of what Act is it that the gaol
provides a man with food which he can buy and pay for ?

The 4th of George 4, c. 64, s. 38 : " Wliereas persons convicted of offences are
frequently sentenced to imprisonment without being sentenced to hard labour ;
be it therefore enacted, that it shall be lawful for two or more visiting justices
of any prison to order that all such persons confined in such prison in pur-
suance of any sentence or conviction, except such prisoners as shall maintain
themselves, shall be set to some work or labour not severe."

4330. That does not say that they are to be maintained by buying the food
of the prison ?

It goes on to say, " And it is hereby declared, that no such prisoner who shall
be of ability to earn, or who shall have the means of earning or of otherwise
providing for his own subsistence, shall have any claim to be supported at the
ex])ense of the county, riding, or division, or by the sheriff or the keeper of the
prison ; provided that when such ability shall cease by reason of sickness,
infirmity, the want of sufficient work, or from any other cause, every such
person shall, during the continuance of his inability, receive such provision and
support as shall be directed for other convicted prisoners in the same prison ;
and the keeper of every such prison shall keep an account of the work done by
every prisoner so set to work as aforesaid, and shall account to such prisoner
for so nuich of the net profits which such prisoner shall have earned." That
part is repealed by a subsequent Act.

433 1 . There is nothing that points to supplying such a man with prison food,
and keeping an account against him, and charging him with it ?

No.

4332. Lord ]Vcn.sln/(I(th'.'\ It does not say that the man may not maintain
himself otherwise, but he is to have the option of purchasing the prison food ; it
does not prohibit him from getting it elsewhere, supposing he wished to purchase
some other means of sujjport ?

The

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 405

The rule says that they " may provide themselves the daily allowance of jv. iJnton, Esq.
prison food ;" it does not permit them to purchase it anywhere else.

30th April 1863.

4333. The prison regulation gives him the buying the gaol food optional, but .

it does not prohibit him from getting it elsewhere, does it .'
I think that another portion of the statute prohibits it.

43.54. Chairman.'] Is there any further suggestion that you wish to make to
the Committee r

No ; not bearing upon the subject of prison discipUne.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Ordered, That this Committee be adjourned to Saturday next.
Half-past Eleven o'clock.

(37.13.) 3 E 3

[ 407 ]

Die Sabbati, 2° Mali 1863.

LORDS PRESENT:

Marquess of Salisbury.
Earl of Carnarvon,
Earl of RoMNET.

Earl Cathcart.
Earl of Dudley.
Viscount EVERSLEY.

THE EARL OF CARNARVON in the Chair. ,

Major C. W. BANNISTER is caUed in, and examined as foUows

Evidence on
Prison Discipline.

Major

4335- Chairman.^ YOU are the governor of the county gaol at Maidstone, ^- TF. Banm.i(cr.
are you not? 2d May 1863.
Yes.

4336. How long have you been governor of that gaol?

Nearly two years.

4337- ^^^lat office did you fill pre-\aously to that?

I was depvity-governor of the Dartmoor convict prison for a period of 18
months ?

4338. Had you held any prison appointment previously to that ?
No, I had not.

4339- Does your experience on the subject date back from that time ?
Yes, it merely dates back from that time.

4340. Will you have the goodness to state to the Committee what is the
average nvunber of prisoners within your gaol r

The average nmnber is about 500 males and females.

4341. \^Tiat is the labom* which is enforced in your prison?

For male prisoners the treadwheel, and truck labour ; by truck labour I mean
drawing a truck laden with coals, or other store from one part of the prison to
another ; oakum-picking, aU the scrubbing and cleaning of the ceUs and
passages, and we have also wea\dng and mat-making ; we make all the prisoners'
clothing, and all the shoes of the prisoners and of the warders. For female
prisoners, washing, making and mending clothes, and scrubbing floors.

4342. Do you class such employments as mat-making, shoe-making, cleaning
the prison, and drawing coals, as hard labom* or Ught labour ?

We class them as hard labom-.

4343. Do you make any chstinction between the different forms of labour
which are in use in your gaol ?

Yes, the Visiting Justices have made a distinction ; they have not allowed
oakum-picking to be considered hard labour ; nor sack-making, and other light
work.

4344. For what class of prisoners do they reserve those occupations ?

For those whom the svu-geon has placed on his list as being unfit for the more
difficult labour, by which I mean principally the treadwheel.

4345. Is it the practice in Maidstone Gaol to employ the short sentence
prisoners upon industrial occupation ?

No, it is not at all the practice ; we make no difference ; every prisoner sentenced
to hard labour goes on the wheel, if not reported unfit by the surgeon.

(37.14.) 3 E 4 4346. For

408 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Major 434C. For whom, then, is the industrial occupation resei-ved ?

C. W. Baimister. We resen^e it for no particular class of prisoners. \Mien a man has under-

gone a certain period of his sentence on the wheel, say half his sentence, my

2d May 1863. pjj^j-^ j^^s been (I do not know whether it is a regular plan in other prisons), if
— he is a tradesman, and has behaved himself well, to take him off the wheel, and
put him to a trade, because we require men to do the work of the prison, and
we must have them.

4347. Do you treat industrial occupation as a reward, and as an encoiu-age-
ment to good conduct ?

Yes, I do.

4348. Do you make any use of the crank?'
We have no crank in our gaol.

4349. Is it your practice, as a rule, to employ every prisoner upon the tread-
wheel unless you require his services elsewhere for the orcUnary pui^jioses of the
prison, or unlt^ss liis health should render it necessary to exempt him from that
labour ?

Yes.

4350. ^^llat is the maximum time which any man in good health is kept
employed at the wheel ?

The maximum daily time of labour is between eight and nine hours in the
summer ; nearly nine hours.

4351. And what is the reUef ?
Our relief is one-third of the time.

4352. Supposing there were 30 men employed at one speU upon the wheel,
10 would be on relief and 20 would be at work at the same time ?

Exactly so ; that is how we arrange it.

4353. Tlie whole of the Maidstone Gaol is not upon the separate s}stem, is it ?
No ; the female jiart of it is on the separate system, and the rest of it is on

the associated system.

4354. Are any of the cells on the male side of the prison certified ?
No ; only three punishment cells that have lately been made.

4355- Do the prisoners sleep together ?
No ; they all have separate sleeping cells.

4356. What is the size of those sleeping cells ?
Nine feet by seven.

4357. Tlierefore they do not fall very far short of the required standard ?
Not very much ; 9 feet b}' 1 3 is the required standard.

4358- 1^0 the prisoners associate together during the day time ?
Yes, the male prisoners do ; the females are entirely on the separate system,
except a few who work in association in the laundry.

43.^9. To what extent do you carry that association ; how many prisoners are
associated together in one room ?

The wards are of chfferent sizes ; the largest one contains 40, and the smallest
12.

4360. Is there an officer present in every ward r

No, we have not enough officers for that. Ours is on the classification prin-
ciple and is divided into four divisions, each having a warder's round-house.
Each round-house is the centre of a division and has four buildings radiating
fnnn it. There are two wards in each of the buildings, which radiate from the
round-houses, and the duty of each officer is to look in at the doors while the
prisoners are at their meals, and during the half-hour after dinner, and the
quarter of an liour after Ijreakfast and supper when they exercise in the yards ;
that is the only supendsion over them tluring that time. After their meals,
they are taken by the officers to labour in the factory building. Those who
are oakuni-pickiug and sack-making, or doing any trades, are taken to this
manufactory ; and those on the wheel are taken to the wheel from these wards,

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 409

to work on the associated principle, and in the manufactory they also work on Mnjor

the associated system, with officers to supervise them. C. W. Bannisteii

4361. \Miilst they are associated at work in the manufactory, are the officers ^'^ ^^7 '^^3-
present ?

Yes.

4362. Is the rule of silence strictly enforced ?
Yes.

4363. How far does each prisoner sit or stand from his neighbour?
He sits close to his neighbour, almost touching him.

4364. How many warders have }'ou in the manufactorj' ?

Two warders generally, and manufacturer ; that is all that we can afford to
put there.

4365. Do you not believe that communications pass between prisoner and
prisoner ?

I am sure of it ; we have such imperfect supervision, that I am sure it must
take place ; but whenever we find it out we punish for it.

4366. Do you believe that that is productive of mischief?
I do.

4367. What form does that mischief take, in your prison ?

Of course I cannot see the result of it myself ; I can only surmise the mis-
chief that it produces. If a very bad man, or a very bad boy, sits next a boy
who has only had one conviction, and does not really belong to the criminal
class, I cannot tell what harm happens between them ; but I can surmise
that the l)oy"s mind is poisoned, and perhaps he may be even introduced at that
time to those who may become his worst friends when he is outside the prison.

4368. Have you no system of classification of first and second offences, or
according to the nature of the f)ffence itself, whereby you can limit that con-
tamination, even under the associated system which you have described ?

It is a very imperfect classification, if you can call it classification at aU. The
classification hitherto pursued in the gaol has been in accordance with the Act
of George the Fourth. The only classification that we have in that way between
what we term re-committals and the others is, that those re-committed eat their
meals in their cells. The practice of the prison has always been so, as well as the
rules of the prison, and it is out of my power to alter them without authority.
After they have eaten their meals in tlieir cells, they are taken down to their
exercise with all the rest of the prisoners. They are onl}' kept separate from
the others during their meal time, and they are thrown into association imme-
diately afterwards.

4369. In fact, tliere is nothing whatever to prevent a thoroughly hardened
criminal from sitting next to, or communicating with, a young lad who may be
imprisoned for a very short period, and for some casual offence of a venial
nature ?

Nothing at all ; but I must explain that the system which I am now speaking
of, is the system which has been hitherto pursued ; but it is now an-anged that
(juite a tUfferent system shall be adopted ; and the building is progressing rapidly *
for that puq:)ose. It is not exactly the model prison system of separation, because
we should have had to throw down the prison, and to make the cells much larger
in order to have done that ; there is not room for it. But the system which we
are about to adopt is, that, instead of permitting the prisoners to associate freely
in the numerous day rooms, which are 30 in number, each with its adjoining-
arcade and exercise yard, and spread over the prison, we are going to conntet
each day room, with the arcade which joins it, and these buildings will have parti-
tions of slate, so that each man will sit between two partitions with a little gate in
front, and every man will be separated from his neighbour. It may be possiljle
that he ma}' sa)- a little to his neighbour, but an}' continued communication
would be entirely prevented, and we have also had an increase of officers given
to us, by which we shall be enabled to lia^^e in every ward an officer always
present, and the duty of those officers during working hours and meal times (for
even^ man will work and have his meals in those compartments) wiU be to walk

(37. M.) 3 F up

410 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Major up and down in fi-ont of the partitions in which the prisoners are sitting, and

7. /r. Bannister, to Supervise tlie prisoners.

2d May 1863. 4370. Is it proposed that those partitions should be entirely open in the

front ?

It is not proposed that they are to be entirely open ; but there is a gate
through which you can see the prisoner ; it is an open Ijarred gate, with the bars
about four inches apart, so that although the prisoner can be seen, he cannot
get out unless he is unlocked.

4371. Are the Committee to understand that you wiU simplj^ use those par-
titions during the day ?

Yes, for work and for meals also.

4372. But not for sleeping r

No ; at the close of the day each man wiU be marched from those compart-
ments vip to his cell above. Each set of prisoners, when they are marched from
their rooms in the morning, wiU go down stairs, have their breakfast in their
compartments, and remain at work in those compartments, instead of being
moved to the manufactoiy to work.

4373. Are you of opinion that this contemplated change will be a great
advantage ?

Yes, I think it mil be a very great advantage.

4374. Will it tend to check and limit the possibility of communications
passing ?

Not every commimication ; I do not think it will- check entirely the com-
munication l^etween two known thieves. They have, I have no doubt, a mode
of communication between themselves which they may understand, and earn' on
to a certain extent, without our being able to detect it. They are extremely
cunning in their methods of communication between each other ; but I do not
think it wiU be in the power of any thoroughly bad criminal to contaminate any
other person in the gaol.

4375. In marching them backwards and forwards from their cells to those
compartments, or to the wheel, wiU it be your practice for the future to prevent
communication passing Ijetween the prisoners ?

For the future it will. We shall pass them as far as we can possibly do it
accorcUng to the system pursued on the separate system. The exercise will also
be carried on in the same manner.

4376. Do you intend to adopt the use of masks or hoods when .exercising ?
No, nothing has been said upon that.

4377. Do }ou intend to adopt any system of separation in the chapel?

No ; separation in chapel has not been provided for. I should explain that
our prison chapel has been made (I do not know how many years ago), on the
same principle as all the rest of the prison has been made, to meet the sort of
classiiieation which the Act of George "the Fourth points out, that is to say, of
separating misdemeanants from felons, and keeping prisoners in want of sureties
and prisoners for trial separate from convicted prisoners, and so on. In point
of fact, it is a classification according to the description of crime. Our chapel
is arranged in the same manner ; there are partitions Avhich represent as nearly
as possible in number the wards in which those prisoners are classed off. It
has been determined to make a new chapel now upon what is called the silent
system. The prisoners will then be all in association ; but there will be a
sufficient number of officers always present to prevent communication.

4378. Viscount Everslej/.~\ Do you propose separating the prisoners on the
tread wlieel ?

I do not propose separating them there, simply because we shall then lose
the possibility of making them woi'k at what is called two-thirds time. I have
seen the system of separation on the wheel carried out in Coldbath Fields, and
there they can only have, say six men on and six men off, so that they must
give them equal work to equal rest ; whereas by our plan 1 2 men may be on
the wheel while six are off, and as the prisoners pass alcmg the wheel, and at
every second miimte one of them descends at one end while one who had been
resting ascends at the other, we are able to give every man 24 minutes' work to

12 minutes'

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 411

12 minutes' rest, \vhich is termed two-thirds time, that is to say, two-thirds Major

labour to one-third rest ; but by the other plan we can only give them half ^' W.^^annister.

and half ; so that, I think, although we might stop communication upon the 2d May 1863.

wheel by separation, we should lose the amount of work. .

4379. What is the scale of diet which is in force at Maidstone Gaol?

It is the scale suggested by the Secretarj^ of State ; it was adopted, I believe,
without any moditication at all.

4380. Is that dietary, in your opinion, satisfactory in its operation, or is it in
deficiency, or is it in excess at aU, or is it exactly suited to the necessities of the
several classes for which it provides ?

With regard to everj' long-sentenced prisoner, say for a )ear and upwards,
I would not say positiveh^ that it is too little in quantit}' ; but I think that
either in quantity or in quality there is something wanting in it ; that is to say,
if a man is working on the Avheel. I do not mean to say so with regard to any
other labour ; but I am perfectly satisfied that the wheel is a very punishing
laljour indeed ; and I think that this diet for sentences of a year and over is
either insufficient in quantity, or else in quahty ; it is not varied enough ; there
is something in it that does not suit the man's constitution.

4381. IVIight it not be that the objection which you stated woidd arise, not
fi'om the quantit)' or the quality of the food, but from insufficiency in
variety ?

It might, I shoidd think.

43S2. On what do you ground that behef of yours ; is it from obsen^ation r
From obsenation. .

4383. You have stated to the Committee that you have been only two years
at Maidstone ; has that period afforded you sufficient experience to enable you
to judge with accuracy on such a point as this?

Perhaps not ; I shoxdd be sorry to place my experience of only two years
against that of men who have been a much longer time acquainted with this
subject.

4384. Have there been many instances which have come under yom* notice
where that diet has appeared to you to be insufficient for the long-sentenced
prisoners ?

Yes, I think I have obsened it in a good many instances, particularly with
regard to those on the wheel. I sa}' nothing of other work. I have never found
that the women suffer at all. I have asked the matron, and I have also asked
others who have been at the gaol, and the assistant governor, who has been a
long time there, about it, and he has observed the same tiling himself, and I
find that the women do not suffer.

4385. Do you weigh the prisoners on their entrance and at their departure?
No, we do not.

4386. AMiat is it, then, which leads }ou to beUeve that there is a falling off
in strength on the part of the men ?

Their appearance.

4387. Is that a view which is entertained by the surgeon also ?
Yes.

4388. Is it the surgeon's practice to issue extra diets?

Only in a very few instances ; it is very rare, indeed, with us.

4389. Can you state the number of extra diets issued during the last year ?
Yes, I can ; but I must ask first, whether by your question you mean me to

include those who are in the hospital.

4390. The Committee understand by "extra" that there are allowances issued
by the svu-geon to men who are not on the sick hst, but who, in his opinion, are
unequal to their work, or unable to maintain a fair share of health on the ordinary
prison fare :

The extra diets would then relate to bakers and cooks. Tlie bakers have to rise at

three or four o'clock in the morning, and they do not go to bed sometimes till

eight o'clock, when they are locked up. They are at work all that time, and for

tlie most part in a very hot place ; and, whether it is right or not I cannot say,

(37.14.) 3f2 but

412 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Major but it lias always been the custom to g^ive those men a pint of beer each because

C. W. Bannister, ^f their being in a veiy heated atmosphere all day for such a number of hours.

3d May 1863. I believe that has been given entirely from the doctor's recommendation, saying

that it was necessary for their constitution ; how far it was necessary I do not

pretend to say ; but that has been so. There are seven of those extra diets.
Then there are onl}- five other men in the whole prison who have been ordered
anything extra, and those have a pint of beer each ; they are men with scrofula,
or some other disease, and who have been in the prison for some time.

4391 . But if the hard labour of the wheel is seriously telling on a man's con-
stitution at the end of a year or 18 months, would it not be the duty of the
surgeon to order him extra chet, supposing it was necessary to continue that
hard labour?

Yes ; or to take him off the wheel, and he has almost invariably adopted the
latter course on a prisoner's health appearing to fail.

43q2. Would not, therefore, the inference be. that the wheel was not teUing
so miich upon their health as a former answer of yours seemed to imply ?

No, I think not ; the clearest proof to my mind that the diet is not sufficient
for a prisoner at wheel labour is that instances are very rare indeed in which a
prisoner has ever done six months consecutively on the wheel without having
been taken off at •least once for ten or 14 days by the surgeon for rest.

4393. Earl Cathcart.~] Assuming that one house of con-ection is situated in
the coiuitry in health}' fields and in a good atmosphere, and that another jjrison
is situated in the middle of a smoky manufacturing district, do not you suppose
that a cUet which might be quite sufficient in one place might be rather insuffi-
cient in -the other ?

It might be so ; l)ut that is a point rather for a medical man than for me.

4.394. Earl of Romnci/.'] Practically, does it really happen that the surgeon
orders extra diet to men on the wheel ?

Very rarel}' ; whenever a man becomes weak and shaky the surgeon orders
him into the factory to rest.

439.5. Can you state how many were ordered last year?

I do not think any of the five men to whom I have aUuded were on the wheel,

4396. With regard to the effect of the wheel upon the long sentenced men,
you wish the Committee to understand that you have obsei-ved that at the end
of twelve or eighteen months they show by their countenance and general ap-
pearance that the wheel is telling upon them ?

Yes, even after six months ; I have never known an instance of a man doing
twelve months without being taken off by the surgeon.

4397. But is not that just what would be the effect of any other severe labour
which is performed by men out of doors ?

That I should doubt ; I do not think you ever see such effects produced by
labour out of doors as you see produced by the wheel.

43t)8. If a man is put to very severe labour out of doors, it tells upon him to
a certain extent ; and you are of opinion that the wheel tells upon him to a still
greater extent, inasmu(;h as it is much severer labour ?

Yes, I think it is ; and it becomes much harder lalwur when accompanied
with such unvaried monotonous diet.

4399. Chairmfin.'] You have stated, have you not, to this Committee that the
ordhiarv amount of labour on the treadwheel for men sentenced for more than
12 months is at the rate of nine hours per day in tlie Maidstone Gaol?

I stated so ; but I ought to have explain(-d that that ajjplied to summer time ;
we change the amount according to the season of the year ; I think I was asked
the maximum lime tliat tliey were kept on the wheel, and in sunnner it would
be nine hours, but it would be very much less in winter, probably not more than
six and a half hours.

4400. .Marquess of Salisbnri/.] For what reason is tliat difference made?
Because our rules say that we are to lock and unlock according to sunrise and

sunset, and we have a scale which comes as near to thnt as can be.

4401. Chfiirman. \ Is coii)oral punishment in use in Maidstone Gaol ?

Yes; the Visiting Justices inflict it for any oft'ence whic;h I may bring up to
them ; generally for insubordination, or anything of that sort, it is inflicted.

4402. How

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 413

4402. How many cases have you had within the last year ? Major
Eight. ^- T^- Hannister,

4403. Can you state the number of re-committals ? ^'^ ^l*y '863.
Five hundred and thirtj-nine.

4404. Marquess of S<ilishuri/J] Do you suppose that many escape your
notice ?

Yes, I think a good many do escape our notice ; we have to trust a great deal
to what the prisoner tells the gatekeeper as to whether he has been in prison
before or not ; we often have not the means of knowing whether he has been in
^^'ands worth Gaol, or some other gaol.

4405. Have you often to appear in court upon an incUctment to pro^e a pre-
vious conviction?

No ; I have never been called upon to do so, but some of my officers have ; it
is not of veiy frequent occurrence.

4406. To what do you attribute that ? ,
I do not know at all.

4407. Do you receive many appUcations from other counties to send officers
to identif}' prisoners ?

No, not a very large number.

4408. Do you always attend to such appUcations?
Yes, always.

4409. Is there any dissatisfaction expressed on the part of your warders on
account of the expense of going to identify prisoners ?

None at aU ; they like going, of course, because they get away for a change,
and have their expenses paid.

4410. Do you think that their remuneration is sufficient?
I think so ; I have never heard any complaint.

44 n. Chairman^ With regard to diet, you stated to the Committee that jow.
were 18 months as an officer in the Dartmoor Prison ; is there any difference
between the dietary in use in Dartmoor and that in Maidstone r

Very great difference.

441-2. Which dietary is the largest ?
The dietary in Dartmoor.

44 '53. In what does the superiority of the Dartmoor dietary consist?

It is better both in quantity aiKl in variety ; for instance, our highest diet is four
ounces of meat, whereas the highest diet at the prison at Dartmoor is six ounces
of uncooked meat without bone ; and when they have soup at Dartmoor they
have four ounces, I think, of meat with the soup, and the strength of the soup
which is very strong as well ; then they have pudcHng on some days, and peas
on other days ; they have a very much more varied diet than we have in Maid-
stone Gaol ; but then these are all prisoners with long sentences, and they are
all invaUds, Dartmoor being an invalid establishment.

4414. Earl of Romnn/.'] Do you think there is an}i;hing in the system at
Dartmoor that tends to reform the prisoner more than at Maidstone ?

No, I think certainly not ; they are both on the associated system ; Dartmoor
is almost entirely so.

4415. Marquess of Salisbury.'] At Dartmoor there is a great deal of agricul-
tural work, is there not ?

Yes, and other outside work ; I think that agricultural work is a very good
thing for a prisoner.

4416. Earl of Romnei/^ Do you think that, on the whole, the system at
Dartmoor tends to reform a man ?

Not to any extent. Association, I think, must always stand in the way of
reformation ; and I do not think that, under any system in a prison, an}thing
more can be dont^ than a foundation laid for reformation.

4417. \Miat is principally aimed at there ?

The authorities aim at producing among the prisoners habits of industry, and
(37.14.) 3 F 3 to

414

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Major
C W. Bannister.

2d May 1 863.

to prove to them that it is their interest to lead regular, sober, and industrious
lives. I think the trades have a tendency certainly to reformation in a man ; I
haA'e seen a man who has never known a trade at all, and never could do anything
for his living, a man probably of the regidar thief class, who has learned a
trade there, and become a capital shoemaker b)' the time he has left the
prison.

441 8. Do you think that he has learnt to behave himself properly when he is
released ?

I cannot say what he would do when he goes back again to his old haunts ;
I think it is very cUfficult to say how many do become better. He has certainly
been taught how to behave himself properly.

441 9. WTiat is your own opinion upon that point ?

My opinion is that not a veiy large mmdjer of prisoners in any prison become
permanently reformed.

4420. Earl of Dudlei/.1 Would you not draw a distinction between first and
second convictions with regard to the beneficial effects of prison disciphne ?

Precisely ; because it implies quite a chfferent class of man, if he is convicted
a second time. A man may be convicted the first time from having been led
into error.

4421. Then it woidd foUow naturally that prison discipline would be a lesson
to him, would it not r

Yes, it woidd in those cases.

4422. Then e\-idently j'ou draw a cUstinction between first and second con-
victions ?

Yes, I do ; I should wish to explain that there is such a difference in the
class of prisoners altogether, that it is very difficult to answer a general question
of that kind at once. There are some men who have got into troulile in their
money matters, and so on, and who have committed some swindling trans-
actions for once in their lives. Such men, I think, woidd be afterwards the
better for being confined in prison, from ha\-ing had time to think over their
past life. But when I stated that I thought very little improvement was
effected by prison discipline, I referi-ed more particularly to those men who are
of the house-breaking class, and who are born thieves. Persons of that class
I believe scarcely ever become any better, whatever you do to them.

4423. Chairman.'] Have you any other suggestion which you wish to make
to the Committee with regard to the internal cUscipline of the prison ?

Nothing occurs to me at the moment.

[The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Mr. CHARLES AUGUSTUS KEENE is caUed in, and examined as follows :

3Ir. C>A. Kcene.

4424. Chairman.] YOU are the governor of Leeds Prison, are you not ?
Yes.

4425. Is that a borough gaol?

Yes.

4426. How long have you held the office of governor there ?
One year and four months.

4427. Had you (vcr held any prison office previously?

I was seven years steward of the City of London Prison at HoUoway.

442 8. AMiat is the duty of the steward of a gaol ?

The general sui)erinte"n(lence of all the lal)our, and the safe custody and
issuing of stoiTS. Previo\isly to that I was two years clerk at the Wandsworth
House of Correction in Surrey.

44 2Q. How many ijrisoncrs is the Leeds Prison capable of containing?
There are 842 separate cells ; and there are some cells now making which

are not comi)leted.

4430. Is

SELECT COilMlTTEE OX PRISON" DISCIPLINE. 415

4430. Is that gaol on the separate system ? Mr. C. A Keene

Yes.

443 1 . Are all the cells of which you speak certified ?

Yes, with the exception of those which are not quite finished.

4432. What is the average number of prisoners who are in confinement in
your gaol ?

There were 266 last year.

4433. Do the majority of them come from the town of Leeds, or from the
surrounding country ?

The greater part of them come from the town of Leeds.

4434. Are a large proportion of those prisoners re-committed pi'isoners r
A very large proportion indeed.

4435. Are the offences generally heavy in their character?

No, not at all so ; they are rather light offences. The breaches of the Leeds
Improvement Act supplj'- the greatest number, such as idleness and sauntering
about the streets, drunkenness and riotous behaviour.

4436. Do you carry yovu' system of separation through every part of your
prison system?

I do not in the kitchen department ; there are five prisoners there assisting
the cook, and they are not kept in separation, of course.

4437. Were those men selected for good conduct ?

Yes, they were selected for good conduct. They had serv^ed a long time in
prison, and the doctor, thinking that the)' were declining in health, recommended
some lighter emplo}'ment for them. Those I pick out for such emplopnent as
gardening and working in the kitchen.

4438. Do you use the cell system in the chapel ?

Y^es, with the exception of a few seats ; I think there are 50 seats which have
been thrown open.

4439. \Mien was that done ?
About thirteen years since.

4440. What was the reason ?

The magistrates wished to try the experiment whether the prisoners conducted
themselves as well in the open seats as they tlid in the boxes.

4441. Has the result of that experiment been to induce them to throw down
the other separations r

No ; they beUeve that the prisoners conduct themselves better in the separate
Ijoxes than in the open seats ; the open seats give too great faciUties for com-
munication, and for signaUing one to the other.

4442. Is it your opinion that the separate system in chapel is, on the whole,

most desirable ?
Undoubtedly.

4443. Have you found any great difficidty vAt\\ regard to the partitions being
defaced or scratched by the prisoners ?

No, not at all.

4444. Earl of Dudley.'] Or any acts of indecency ?
There are some few cases, but they are very rare.

ZI445. Have you been generally able to punish whenever such an offence has
been committed ?

No ; I have not been able in everj' instance to put my hand upon the man ;
but, in some instances, the officers, who occupy elevated seats, have seen a
prisoner scratching ; and in those cases, which are very few, I have been able to
punish them; but there have been cases in which I have not been able to
punish.

4446. Is the cha]ilain satisfied with the separate system in the chapel ?
Yes ; he prefers it to the associated system.

4447. How long has he been in that office ?
Six years.

(37.14.) 3 F 4 444 S. Was

2d May 1863.

2(1 May 1863.

416 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Mr C A Keene 4A4S. Was he the chaplain of any gaol previously?

No.

4449. Is the chapel used as a school-room ?

No.

4450. Is there another school-room ?
There is a school-room which is used for boys, but the adults receive their

instruction in the separate cells. The schoolmaster goes from cell to cell, and the
chaplain also.

44,', 1 . The Committee, therefore, understand that the system of separation is
carried out as strictly as you are able to do it ?
Quite so.

4452. What is the labour that is enforced in the Leeds Gaol ?
Weaving, bagging, canvas, and cocoa fibre matting, making mats, and picking
wool and oakum.

4.153. Have you no treadwheel labour?

No.

4454. Nor any crank labour?

Yes, I have the crank.

44 1 3. What form of crank labour is it that you use ; is it a crank with one
continuous shaft, or is it the separate crank, which goes b}" the name of the
hard-labour cellular crank ?

It is Botten's hard-labour cellular crank ; but we have very few of them, and
they are very seldom used.

4456. To what class of prisoners do you appl}^ them?

To those who exhibit great stii})i(lity in learning the different trades, and who
are not picking them up sufficiently quick ; we put those upon the crank who
wiU not learn, or fail to perform their task.

44,",7. Do you emi)loy short sentence prisoners in industrial occupations?
Onl\' in jjicking oakum and picking wool.

4458. How are the cells ventilated in which those cellular cranks are placed?
They are ventilated precisely the same as the rest of the cells.

4459. Are they ventilated hy a flue, or l)y a window, or by both ?
By a flue ; and some of them have also ventilators in the windows.

4460. Have )'ou ever foimd that, from the use of those cellular cranks, the
air becomes vitiated, and inconvenience arises to the health of the prisoner ?

No. The fact is that they are seldom used ; but I never found any ill effects
resulting from them at all.

44 til. Therefore, as I understand, you make use of the cellular crank as a
punishment, and as an exceptional form of thscipline, rather than as a
regular one ?

Quite so.

4462. Does that arise from a preference in your mind for productive lal)our
over vniproductive labour as being more profitable to the gaol, or as being a
better form of disci])line to be applied to tlic ])ris(mers?

I think that productive labour is a much better form of thscipliiie than unpro-
ductive labour.

446:5. On what ground ?

I think that the working of those cranks becomes exceedingly tedious to the
prisoner, and if long continued, injurious to his health.

446.1. But is it, in your o])inion, desiral)le to cut off from the prison system
that which you may call the irksome, and tedious and monotonous element?

^Vhile they are engaged at the productive labour, they are at the same time
learning a trade which, on their discliarge, enables them to get their hving if
they are so disposed.

446',. But assuming that a carpenter or a shoemaker is sent into your prison,
it would probabl}' be your practice to ])ut him to that trade with which he was
conversant "?

Not necessarily so. I generally keep one man in the carjjenter's shop.

4466. Would

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 417

4466. Would you not employ a caipenter who was in confinement in car- Mr.C. A.Keene.
penterins; and a shoemaker in shoemakim^ ? , ~ : .

V -Ft ■ 1 <-! T 1 11 2d May 18^0.

les, II 1 requuTd them 1 slioukl. ■^

4467. Would Aou not endeavour to do it ; would }'ou not think that it was
utilising the lal)our which was at your command ?

I should not have the faciUt}- of employing ever}' caqjenter that came into the
prison.

4468. Would you do so if you had the facility?

I should do it only so long as their lahour was required.

4469. Then, is it }our opinion that a prisoner would prefer to be employed on
his jirevious trade, or to be put to unproductive labour, in the tedious form of
labour on the treadwheel and the crank 1

He would undoubtedly prefer his own labour.

4470. Is it, in your opinion, desirable to make the form of discipline, what-
ever it be, ])alatable to the prisoner in that respect ?

No, certainl)' not ; but all labour is tasked, and if sufficient is not performed
the prisoner is punished.

447 J. Then on what ground is it that you express a preference for industrial
labour over the treadwheel and the crank in a disci})linar}' point of view ?

Merely because I think that a great part of the prisoners call themselves
labourers who realh" have no trade; and teaching them -weaving and mat-
making, and wea^ing cocoa-nut fibre matting, would enable them, if they were so
disposed, after the time of their imprisonment expired, to obtain their Uvehhood.

4472. Is it, therefore, with a view to their ultimate reformation that you
advocate that r

Yes ; but in the case of incoi-rigible rogues I should prefer putting them on
the hard-labour machine.

4473. Then is it your opinion that the very large majority of your prisoners
are not confirmed criminals ?

I do not think they are.

4474. You stated to the Committee a short time since, did you not, that the
re-committals formed a ven^ large proportion of your prisoners :

Yes.

4475. Do }-ou suppose that those re-committed prisoners are prisoners who for
the most part are incorrigible ?

I do not consider them Uke incorrigible felons. They are incorrigible so far
as disorderh- (conduct in the streets and minor offences, such as drunkenness,
are concerned.

4476. Do }-ou consider that they are open to reformatory influences?
Quite so in the case of very many of them.

4477. And is there no class within your gaol whom you would look upon as
practically incorrigible r

There are the "regular pickpockets : I look upon them as incorrigible un-
doubtedly.

4478. Do you look upon the class of receivers of stolen goods as incor-
rigible ?

Quite so ; but I very seldom have an}' in custody.

4479. Again, do you look upon the class of forgers or coiners as open to
reformatory influences ?

I should" look upon the coiners as incorrigible, but I cannot say the same with
regard to the forgers in all cases.

4480. Again, do you believe that the utterers of bad mone}- are a class who
are not open to reformatory influences ?

I should say that they were incorrigible.

4481. Are there many in your gaol that would come under those different
classes ?

There are not many of those classes.

(37. 14.) 3 G 4482. Are

418 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Mr. C. A. Keene. 4-182. Are the Committee, then, to understand, that whenever you find a man

of that class whom you state you consider to be incorrigible, you wovild employ

2d May 1863. him upon the crank?

No ; because I could not in every case, seeing that we have not sufficient
cranks for so large a number of prisoners.

44S3. You stated, did vou not, that the crank was very often left quite
idle ?

Yes, it is quite idle at times.

4484.. Are there times when there is no one person m your prison who could
be placed under any of those separate heads ; is there any moment when you
have not a coiner or a forger, or any of those whom you have mentioned as of
the incorrigible class ?

448.5. Earl of !>?«//??/.] According to your evidence, it would seem natural,
woidd it not, that the cranks should be employed by those men ?
My own opinion is not to use those cranks.

4486. Chairman^ On what ground is it that those cranks are allowed to
remain viseless ?

The justices for the most part prefer productive labour.

4487. If so, is not the result of your evidence this, that productive labom- is,
in vour opinion, the most desirable labom* on which to employ those prisoners ?

Yes.

4488. And is not the reason of that, that productive labour is the most re-
munerative as regards the funds of the prison ?

Yes.

448(5. You woidd not object to unproductive labour on the ground of cUs-
cipline, or on the groimd of the ultimate reformation of the prisoner, but you
olDJect to it because it is in fact wasting the productive enei'gies of the man ?

Qiute so ; that is my opinion.

4490. And }"ou state that that is the opinion of the Visiting Justices also ?
Yes, I believe it is.

4491. What is the total profit fi'om the labour of the prisoners, which your
]:)alance sheet shows ?

£. 782. 4 s. 7 d. last year ; that is adding the estimated value of the work done
for the benefit of the prison, in adchtion to the actual profit earned by the
prisoners for the goods that have been sold.

4492. Earl Cathcart.l You do not estimate papng for cleaning and that sort
of thing, do you ?

No ; I estimate the value of the carpentering and painting, and so on ;
552 /. 13 ^. 2 d. is the amount of money actually received from goods sold.

4493. What proportion does that bear to the whole expense of the estabUsh-
ment ?

The expenditure was 4,84 1 I. 1 8 .s. 4 d., and the prison earnings amounted to
782 I. 4 s. 7 d.

4494. Earl of Ronmci/.^ In order to get at that profit of 552/. 13 s. 2d., do
you charge against the earnings the cost of the maintenance of the prisoners
who work at those several employments ?

No.

449'^. If you chd so, you would get no profit at all ?
No.

4496. Marquess of Salisburi/.^ What is the average number in the prison ?
265-96.

4497. Chairman^ Can you give the Committee the average number of re-
committals ?

I can give the total of last year; males, 867, and females 358 ; total, 1,225.

4498. What was the total number of persons who were committed to your
gaol diu'ing last year ?

Males, 1,826 ; females, 622 ; total, 2,448.

4499. Therefore,

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 419

4499. Therefore, from the figures which you ha^e just given the Committee^ Mr. C. A. Keene.

the re-committals are at about the rate of 50 per cent. ? , , , ■„„

^ 2(1 Mav 186.3.
Yes. -'

4.500. Do not you consider that a very high proportion ?

Exceechngly high.

4tO 1 . Has that nmnber been increasing or diminishing ?
It has been increasing.

4.50 J. Can you state vv^hat the increase of crime has been of recent years, and
from what period that increase dates ?

My experience would not go beyond 12 months in Leeds.

45(13. Do you think that these figures show that the system, as pursued at
Leeds, is practically answering its purpose ?

It would not appear so from that statement ; but I think that the opening of
saloons and pviblic-houses, and places of that sort, has sent a great number of
young men to prison.

4.504. Is it possible to suppose, from this number, that the gaol, as admi-
nistered under its present system, exercises a very deterrent effect ?

It would not appear so from the nmnber of re-committals. *

4,5"5- Would it not, therefore, be probable that some part of the system might
be erroneous ?

Possibly it may be so.

4506. Earl Cathcurt.] You stated, did you not, that a great many cases of
committal to your prison arose from drunkenness ?

Yes.

45: '7. You do not suppose that the influence of prison discipline would
check ch'unkenness in any material degree ; if a man is an habitual cfrunkard,
when he goes out of prison he would get drunk, and come back again, would he
not?

Yes ; I think that the shutting up of those places which I have refeiTed to
would tend more to diminish the number of prisoners than the discipUne which
the}^ would receive in prison.

4.508. C/iairman.l^ Do you mean that a large proportion of prisoners ai*e com-
mitted to prison for the mere act of drunkenness, or do you mean that the act
of drunkenness on their part led them into the commission of other crimes and
oflfences, such as assaults and the like, which ended in their committal to prison ?

I mean that the increased number of prisoners arises from drunkenness, and
from the effects of drmikenness, such as assaidts and other disoi'derly conduct.

4.509. WiU )-ou be good enough to state the numbers of prisoners committed
to Leeds Gaol simply for the offence of being found drunk in the streets ?

There were 493 commitments for di'unkenness and 105 for breaches of the
Wine Licenses Act, the 23d of the Queen, chapter 27-

4510. Has vagrancy increased, in your opinion ?
There is a slight increase in this year's return.

4 .5 1 1 . Has larceny inci'eased ?
To a slight extent.

45 • 2. Have assaults increased ?
Yes.

4.513. Have offences under the head of wilfid damage increased?
Yes, imder that head also.

4.514. Have more persons been taken up as reputed thieves than formerly ?

I cannot answer that question positively ; I thmk their numbers have a Uttle
increased.

451 .5. In point of fact, there has been a general increase of crime ?
Yes, there has.

4.5 1 6. The number of re-coimnittals I gather from your evidence is somewhat
larger tliis year than it was in previous years ?
Yes.

(37. 14.) 3 G 2 ^517, There

420 MINUTES OF EVIDEXCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Mr. a A. Ke«ne. 4,') I 7- There has been, therefore, a proportionate rise in the re-cominittals

and in the amount of crime in Leeds arenerallv '-

2d May 1863. yes.

' 4')\S. I understand from this table which you have placed in my hands, that

in the year 1856 the total number of committals was 1,326 ?
Yes.

4519. In 1857 it had risen to 1,648, in 1858 to 1,910, in 1859 to 1,866, in
1860 to 1,848, in 1861 to 2,420, and in 1862 to 2,448?
Yes, that is so.

4.t20. "What punishments are enforced in your gaol for minor prison offences?
The light and dark solitary cell fi-om one to three days.

4521 . Do you have recourse to stoppage of diet ?

In a very few cases indeed ; in some slight cases I might stop a man's supper,
but the cases would be few : that used to be a ver}' common i)unishment, but
this year I have kept strictly to the light and dark solitary cell, with the excep-
tion of very few cases ; there might not be a dozen cases of stoppage of diet in
the whole 12 months.

4522. Do 3'ou find that either the light or the dark solitary cell is an effective
punishment ?

Yes.

4,523. Do the prisoners ever repeat an offence after having been shut up in

those cells ?

Some of them will commit the offence again, but at the same time they do not

at all like the punishment.

4 -,24. Do you make any use of corporal punishment ?
Not since I bave been there.

4525. It has been disused for many years ?

I am aware that it has been disused for a great number of years.

4 j26. Have you practicaUy so far disused it that you would never use it on
any occasion ?

I do not think the magistrates would sanction it.

4527. Are you aware of what their feeling is on that subject, and on what
grounds the^' have abandoned it ?

No ; I believe that they have a strong feeling against it.

4528. From your experience, are you at all aware what the effect of corporal
punishment is ? *

As far as I am concerned, I think that corjwral punishment is a very good

punishment with regard to juveniles.

4.529. My question had reference to offences against prison disciphne, breaches

of prison rules ?

1 think in extreme cases it might be adopted, but only in extreme cases.

4530. Would 3-0U, from yom' experience, be wiUing to abandon the power of
making use of coiijoral punishment ?

No, I should wish to retain it, undoubtedly.

4,531 . What is the diet which is in force in Leeds Gaol ?

I have not a copy of the diet table with me; but it is not the official
dietarj'.

4532. Is it hisher or lower than the official diet^iry issued by the Home
Office?

It is an extraonUuaril)' mixed diet.

4533. In what sense of the word do you mean that it is a mixed diet?
There are no two days alike ; it differs every day in the week.

4,534. How many classes have you ?

Five classes.

4.53.5. Do the classes, in point of time, correspond with the classes in the

official dietar}^ ?

I think not, - .,

4536. How

2d May 1863.

SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 421

4536. How often is meat given during the week to the highest class ? ,i/,.. c. A Kaun
It is given every day.

4537. From your experience of this dietarj-, is it your opinion that it is such
as is required by the wants of the prisoners, or that it is in excess ; or that it is
too low ?

I consider it rather a liberal diet, more liberal than the official dietarv ?

4538. Do you consider it too liberal ?
It is too liberal in one sense ; but by being so Uberal it keeps down the extra

allowances by the order of the surgeon ; perhaps the one may balance the
other.

45.39- Can you state to the Coimnittee the number of extra diets which were
issued last jear ?
I cannot.

4.540. Can you state what the ordinary number is ?

No, I cannot do that ; there are very few indeed upon extra diet, certainly not
more than an average of eight.

4541 . Earl of DudJei/.'] In what cases is extra diet given ?
Only by order of the surgeon,- for men losing strength, and falling off in

weight.

4542. Have you much sickness in your prison?
Very little indeed ; last year there was a great decrease of sickness.

4543. Is the position of the gaol in Leeds a sanitary one r
Quite so.

4544. Chairman.^ There is a system of intercommunication estabhshed, is
there not, between your gaol at Leeds and the Wakefield prison in order to
identify previously convicted prisoners ?

Yes."

4545. Will you state to the Committee whether }'ou have found that arrange-
ment very beneficial ?

I have found it very beneficial indeed, because on several occasions Avhen I
have gone over to Wakefield with our officers we have detected i)risoners who
were waiting for trial at the Wakefield Sessions, who would not otherwise have
been detected, and vice versa when they have visited Leeds.

4546. Are you aware whether it is a difficulty which is frequently experienced
in courts of law to prove a pre%'ious con^■iction /

I have experienced no difficulty at all in that respect.

4.547. Are you not aware that verj' often a prisoner is in the dock, and that
there is a moral certainty that he has been previously convicted, and yet that it
is impossible to prove it .'

Yes, we have been unable to find officers who coidd prove the pre\aous con-
viction.

4548. Does not this system of communication between two such gaols as
Leeds and Wakefield faciUtate the proof of such previous conviction ?
Greatly so.

4.549. How is that communication between your two gaols earned on?

Some three or four daj's previous to the Sessions being held, the governor of
Wakefield Prison will write to me, and ask me to send some of my officers over,
and I send three of my oldest officers, who have been longest in the prison, over
to Wakefield ; then the prisoners are draA\ai up and brought into the room one
by one, and several questions are asked them.

4550. Then you find that very often prisoners are identified by that means r
Yes ; I know no instance of going to Wakefield without being able to identify

one or two ; and sometimes half-a-dozen are identified.

4551. Are you of opinion that it would be a benefit if that system were
extended to other gaols ?

Yes, a very great benefit indeed.

(3;. 14.) 3 G 3 4552. Have

422 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

M'. C. A. Ketne. 4552. Have you ever considered the propriety of extending it to some other
, ,;: ^.,, largre towns in your district r
I I liave not.

4553. Would there be any practical difficidty or objection to so doing?

I see none, except that it would draw off a number of officers from the prison
if they were continually moving about. Wakefield being so near Leeds, we have
no difficulty on that score.

4554. Earl of Romimj] Are the main objects sought for at Leeds the
reformation of individual prisoners, and the saving of cost, as far as possible ?

Quite so ; these are the two great objects.

4.555. Rather than the punishment of prisoners generally ?

Yes. Perhajis I may be allowed to remark, in the case of the Criminal Justice
Act, there are a considerable number of prisoners sentenced who, if they had
been remanded, some of their previous characters would have been found out.
I think that in such cases when any prisoner is committed, he should be fii'st
remanded to prison for a few days, in order to give time for that. If any clause
coidd be inserted in the Gaol Act, compelling prisoners to have their likeness
taken by photogTaph, it would have a very beneficial effect ; we do it in our
gaol.

4556. Earl of Dxidley^ Have you ever had any difficulty in getting a like-
ness ?

Only in one case.

4557. Did you take the man after aU ?

No, he was taken so very badly, indeed, that it was not of much use.

4558. Chairman^ Have you ever considered the possibility or the desirabihty
of affixing any mark upon a prisoner upon a second conviction, or upon his
being sentenced to penal servitude r

I think it would have a very good effect.

4559. How many hours in the 24 are devoted to sleep in yom- prison?
From half-past eight at night till fi\e in the morning, in winter and summer

alike.

4560-4575. Earl oi DudUi/^ Are the cells hghted with gas?

Yes, in the winter time. They are not hghted all night; a bell rings at
half-past eight, and the prisoners are allowed five minutes before the gas is put
out.

The Witness is directed to withdi-aw.

Ordered, that this Committee be adjourned to Tuesday next,

at One o'clock.

SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRISON DISCIPLINE.

423

Die Martis. 5° Maii 1863.

LORDS PRESENT;

Marquess of Salisbury.
LoED Steward.
Earl of Carnarvox.
Earl of RoMNET.
Earl Cathcart.

Earl of Dudley.

Viscount EVERSLEY.
Lord WODEHOUSE.

Lord Wensletdale.
Lord Lyveden.

THE EARL OF CARNARVON, in the Chair.

MR. JOHN DAYTON is called in, and examined as follows :

4576. Chairman.] YOU are the Governor of the St. Albans Gaol, are you not ?
Yes.

4577. Ihat is a Liberty prison, is it not ?
Yes.

45 78. Will you state to the Committee what the extent of the Liberty is ?

I really do not know the extent ; I think it is something like 22 parishes, but
T will not be quite certain.

4579- What is the rule under which prisoners are sent to you ; do they in-
clude all persons who are committed from within that district r
Yt^s ; from within that Liberty.

45 So. And for all offences ?

No ; some are sent to the assizes ; capital charges are sent to the assizes.
I take all larcenies that are tried at the quarter sessions, but not the assize
cases ; those are sent to the county prison,

4,581. Will you state to the Committee the average number of prisoners in
your gaol ?

The average number for the last 18 months would be 50.

4582. What has been the highest number that you have ever had at a
time r

Sixty-three.

4,583. And what has been the lowest r
Twenty.

4584. What are the executive staff of the prison ?

I have four warders, a matron, a chaplain, and a surgeon.

4585. Out of the average of 50, what is the proportion of women to men ?
The average number of women would not be more, I should think, than 2 j;

taking the daily average, it would not be three.

4580. Is your gaol conducted on the separate system ?
No ; it is on the associated principle.

4587. Is it association for all the prisoners ?

1 have eight cells in which I can put certain classes of prisoners whom it is
desirable to keep separate from all but prisoners of the same stamp.

(37. 15.) 3 G 4 4588. Do

Evidence on
Prison Discipline.

Mr. J. Dayton,

5th May 1 863.

424 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Jih. J. Dayton. 458S. Do you follow the clcissification of the Act of George the Fourth ?
As nearly as I can.

4.589. What is the size of those cells ?

I have not measured them ; I should think that the separate cells are ei^-ht
feet by six ; the larger wards are very large, and are capable of holding eight

51 ii ]NLiy 18G3.

or ten men.

4590. What is the largest number of prisoners that you ever had in associa-
tion at the same moment ?

I have had 1 1 within the last 12 months.

459'- Have you an}- cells set apart for the purposes of punishment for prison
oirences ?
Yes ; two.

45.Q2. Are they light or dark cells r
They are dark cells.

4593- Have you any rooms or cells which are appropriated for untried
prisoners ?

No ; we use the prison cells indiscriminatelv, and we class them out in the
best way that we are able.

4.594- Do you ever allow the tried and untried prisoners to associate ?
Never.

4595- Do you deal with debtors ?
No, they go to the county prison.

4596- "When the prisoners are in association, is there any officer on duty to
superintend them ?

No.

4,')97. Do not you think that would be an advantage ?
I think that it would be a very great advantage.

4.598. Is it, therefore, from the want of men that you disregard that
precaution r

There is no opportunity of doing so in a prison of this description ; it is an
old prison which was formerly the gate-house to the monastery, and there is a
difficulty in carrying out anything of that kind.

4.599. ^Vhat is the diet which you use in St. Albans ?

The diet is a pint of gruel and six ounces of bread in the morning ; a pint of
soup and six ounces of bread at dinner time, and a pint of gruel and six ounces
of bread for supper at night ; but there is to be an alteration in that dietary.

4600. Ts that for all classes of prisoners ?

There are some slight differences in the meals for those on hard labour. I
will hand our dietary to the Committee {deiiveri/ig in the same).

4601. I see by this table, that in the case of criminal prisoners awaiting
their trial, each man is allowed 106 ounces of bread, and 14 pints of gruel, and
4 pints of soup a week }

Yes.

4602. For the convicted, and not sentenced to hard labour, 168 ounces of
bread, 14 pints of gruel and 4 pints of soup, which is the same as for ciuminal
prisoners awaiting their trial f

Yes.

4603. Convicted prisoners who arc sentenced to hard labour during the first
week, are the same as those classes which I have just read ; but after the first
week, they have 224 ounces of bread, 14 pints of gruel, and 7 pints of soup.
Is that so ?

Yes.

4604. So that there is an increase made in the bread, and also to the extent
of three pints of soup during the week ?

Yes.

4605. What

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 425'

4605. What is the longest sentence with which you have to deal in St. Mi J Duuton
Albans r " J "

I have had them in prison for two years, but that is some years ago. I have •''^'^ ^^y 18G3.
two prisoners now sentenced for eighteen months.

4606. Do you find that this dietary is sufficient to sustain health ?
Hitherto I have considered that it has been, until recently ; within the last

five or six months, the men have gone back slightly. The attention of the
visiting magistrates was drawn to that subject, and they have increased the
dietary, at the suggestion of the prison inspector, to half a pound of potatoes
for those men who are in the receipt of two pounds of bread.

4607. But besides that, you allow no meat ?

The only meat that is supplied is three ounces in the soup daily.

4608. Do those three ounces of meat go to each pint ?

Three ounces of meat, free from bone, are allowed in the copper to each pint.

4609. And you are prepared now to make an addition of vegetables, are you
not?

Yes, that was commenced last week.

4610. 1 see that in one of the recent reports it is stated that the male
prisoners sleep upon the floor without any bedsteads, although there are
bedsteads vacant in the prison ; is such the case now ?

Yes.

4611. Will you explain to the Committee the reason of that?

They made use of them to effect their escape out of the old building, and they
were ordered to be taken down by the visiting justices.

4612. In what way were they made subservient to attempts at escape?
They took away the bolts of the bedsteads, and broke the bedsteads up.

4613. What are the bedsteads made of?

Of slight iron bars, with good firm stanchions.

4614. The bedsteads were removed in consequence of this attempt to escape?
Yes.

46 1 5. Are the windows barred ?
Yes, the windows are barred.

4616. Have you ever had any escape from the prison ?
Yes, several.

4617. To what do you attribute those escapes ?

To the weakness of the upper part of the building. They would go fi'om
their room into the chapel, and from there into the roof. The upper part of
the building is in a very dilapidated state ; it is simply lath and plaster, one
may call it.

4618. Consequentl}'^, in this Liberty prison at St. Alban's, you have very
little security for the custody of the prisoners ?

Very little.

4619. Is the floor of wood or of stone ?

The floors are wooden with the exception of the cells that I have been
speaking of; those are stone with wooden bedsteads about 6 inches from the
stone.

4620. Do the prisoners sleep together in dormitories ?

They sleep together in the large rooms with the exception of those cells.

4G2 1 . How many prisoners are there in a room r

T\wy vary from five to ten, it depends upon the number that we have in the
prison.

4622. Is there any one on guard during the night ?

There is a night warder, but he is allowed to go to bed ; he sleeps in the
interior of the prison, but he has no control whatever over the prisoners.

4623. In what sense has he no control ?

(37. 15.) 3 H He

^26 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

3Jr. J. Dayton. He is debarred from going into the room. We cannot trust him to go into
5thAi;7iS6-, ;he room where eight or ten men are confined all night. He has simply to
^ ^ ^' hear what noises may be taking place.

4624 When you say that you cannot trust him to go into the room, do you
mean that you could not answer that the prisoners would not commit some
violence upon him r

Yes, precisely ; that is my meaning.

4625. Have you ever had experience of such conduct on their part?
No ; but I have always been very guarded against a matterof tliat kind.

46^6. Is there a night-light burning in the room?

No,

4627. What is the labour which you have in use in your prison ?
The treadwheel for raising spring-water for the supply of the prisoners,
beating and picking oakum, and knitting stockings for the use of the prison.

^628. Have j'ou the crank ?

No.

4629. How many men do you employ upon the treadwheel at the same time?
We can place twelve on.

4630. How many are sufficient to work the wheel?
We work it with two classes of six.

463 1 . Have you ever found that your numbers have been so short that you
have had difficulty in working the wheel ?

Not so, because we can throw it out of the gear, and work it with two or
three men.

4632. Have you a chapel attached to the gaol ?

Yes.

4633. Have you a chaplain ?
Yes.

4634. I observed in one of the earlier reports it was stated that it was the
practice in the prison to dry the clothes of the prisoners inside the chapel ; was
that so ?

It was so at that time.

4635. Has that practice been altered ?
Yes, the clothes are all sent away now.

4636. What was the reason of that arrangement?

The Government inspector of prisons wished me to lay the matter before the
visiting justices, and I did so, and they ordered the clothing all to be taken
away from the prison, and washed and cleansed and brought home weekly.

4637. How many visiting justices are there?
Eleven now.

4638. How often do they attend to inspect the prison ?

They meet monthly, and they visit several times within the month.

463q. Earl Cathcart.l Do those associated prisoners make a great noise in
the room at night ?
Yes, sometimes.

4640. There are ten together, I think 1 understood you to say 1
Yes.

4(141 . What is the duty of the watchman in case of a riot in those rooms ?
To make it known to me directly.

4642- In consequence of that report to you, what do you do ?
The lower doors are made secure, and I go into tlie room with an officer
or two.

4643. And YOU then quell the disturbance and leave them again ?

Yes.

4644. Do

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 427

4644. Do the prisoners ever assault each other ? Mr. J. Dayton.
Not at night, but in the day-time they have quarrels, in meal hours. Jj—

4645. Is a prisoner ever severely beaten by the other prisoners •

No.

4646. With regard to the cost of diet, do you know the nature of the diet in
the county gaol and house of correction ?

I think it is what they consider to be the Gor\'ernment dietary. I am not
sure.

4647. That is a better dietary than yours, is it not ?
Yes.

4648. How do you account for the great difference there is in the cost of the
diet, because in the county house of correction the cost of the diet is only
71. 9s. 6d. per head, whereas in your prison it is 12/. 9s. 2d. ?

Our goods are contracted for, and there is very little opposition in the trading
part of the community. We do not use a verj' great deal, and they charge us
almost what they like, although they send in contracts ; and we have no profit-
able employment in the prison.

4649. The price per head in the county house of correction is 7/. 95. 6d.
with a superior diet, and in yours, with an inferior diet, the cost is 12/. 9s. 2d.
How would you account for the difference ?

I cannot account for it, except that the maintenance is considerably dearer
at our place than it would be in the county prison.

4650. Is the diet inferior ?

The diet is considered to be inferior. I have never seen it in use, but I
have understood it to be so.

4651 . 12/. 9s. 2d. is about the highest rate of all prisons, is it not ?
I am not able to say.

4652. Earl of Romney.'] Do you advertise for tenders for goods supplied to
the prison?

Yes, but we scarcely ever have more than one tender of a sort sent in.

4653. Lord Lyvtden.'l It would seem that it is generally pretty well under-
stood amongst the tradesmen ?

Yes, it appears to be so.

4654. Earl of Romney P[ Perhaps you could buy the articles as cheap in the
market ?

Yes, I think we could.

4655. Earl Cathcart.] Is your clothing of an expensive character ?
No. We pay 16 s. a suit, and I do not consider that too much.

4656. Marquess of Salisbury.) Do you always put your prisoners in the gaol
clothing ?

Yes, with the exception of those prisoners committed for trial who are desirous
of wearing their own clothes.

4657. All convicted prisoners, I presume, do wear the prison clothing?
Yes.

4658. Chairman.'] Occasionally it happens, does it not, that you have a pri-
soner who has been re-convicted many times, and who belongs to the hardened
class of offenders ?

Yes.

4659. And occasionally it happens that such a man is very mutinous and
refractory ?

Yes.

4660. How do you deal with such a prisoner ?

I punish him by placing him in solitary confinement for not more than three
days ; perhaps I repeat that twice or thrice, and then if it does not have the
desired effect, I take him before the visiting justices.

46G1. And what follows then ?

(37.15.) 3 H 2 Then

SlhMay 1863.

428 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

MTr. J. Dai/ton. Then they punish him by an increase of punishment, say a week or fortnight,
or they whip him.

4662. In what cells is he locked up ?

Away from all the others, in one of those separate cells that I have men-
tioned.

4663. What is the size of those separate cells ?
1 think about eight feet by six feet.

4664. How long do you keep him in confinement ?
Until he is seen by the visiting justices ; and if he is ordered to be further

imprisoned, he is kept there during that period, whatever it may be.

4C65. In Avhat state is the ventilation of those cells?

The ventilation of those cells is very good ; there are ventilation pipes through
all those cells.

4666. But those cells are not much more than two-thirds of the size of the
ordinary cell, as certified by the inspector ?

I do not know how that may be ; they have not been constructed many
years.

4667. How frequently during the course of the year have you had recourse
to corporal punishment i

I think during the last year not more than twice or thrice ; I think I have
twice called in the visiting justices.

4668. Have you a surgeon attached to the gaol ?
Yes.

4669. Have you a sick ward or an infirmary ?
We have a large room that we set apart for an infirmary.

4670. How many hours of labour do you give to the prisoners ?
At this time of the year and for the next four months, we shall give them.

Bight hours.

4671. The tread-wheel, as I understand, is the only hard labour upon which
they are employed r

The only hard labour ; the other labour is beating and picking oakum.

4672. Do you continue the tread- wheel in the case of men sentenced to 18
months' confinement ?

I should do so, but that would rest entirely with the medical officer.

4673. You would judge of that by the state of his health ?
Yes.

4674. You stated just now, that escapes have been frequently attempted and
occasionally with success ?

Yes, in one or two instances ; previous to 1858 we had several, and some of
the men who have gone through the roof of the building, have not yet been
re-captured, although others have been.

467.5. Do you attribute that to the want of numbers and efficiency in the
staff which you have at your disposal, or do you attribute it exclusively to the
state of disrepair into which the gaol has fallen r

Exclusively to the state in which the old building is.

4676. Have you ever had any thing like outbreaks amongst the prisoners ?

No.

4677. No mutinous conduct r

No.

4675. Has the condition of this gaol been frequently the subject of the
Inspector s reports r

Yes.

4679. Earl of Dudhy.] Has anything been done in consequence ?
Yes, the magistrates are now about to erect a new building ; they are getting
in the plans now, and are in communication with several prison architects.

4660. Chairman.~\

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 429

4680. Chairman.'] Do they propose to rebuild it entirely, or to alter it? Mr. J. Tiayton.
To rebuild it entirely on a fresh site; the site has been purchased, and it io ^

to be upon the separate principle. ^^ ^ '^y ^ '3-

4681. How long have you held the appointment of Governor of the gaol?
Twenty-three years.

4682. Have you ever been engaged in any other capacity in any prison?
No.

4683. Have you had any experience of other prisons ?
I cannot say that I have.

4684. Do you consider that the state of t^ie Liberty Gaol of St. Alban's is a
satisfactory state with regard to the maintenance of discipline, and the effective
control which you can maintain over the prisoners ?

Not so much so as I could wish.

468,5. What do you consider would be necessary to bring that prison 'into
consonance with your notion of what is right?

I do not think that could be done in its present state.

4686. Do you not believe that there would always be a difficulty, where the
number of prisoners are so small, in dealing with them economically, and at the
same time efficiently ?

I do not think that I could deal with them efficiently, for taking the whole
building in its present state, I do not think it is possible to carry out any degree
of discipline at all, night or day.

4687. You stated that you had four warders ?
Yes.

4688. AVill you be good enough to state to the Committee, what the amount
of pay is which is issued to those men ?

They have 1 /. a week, each of them, with the exception of the chief warder,
and he has 65 /. a year.

4689. What proportion of these warders sleep in the prison ?

The chief warder has a house, and one of the sub-warders sleeps in the
prison.

4690. And those two men and yourself are the only three officers that are
in the prison at night ?

Yes, we are the only three officers in the prison at night ; we have no bound-
: ary wall ; but there is a night watchman outside, walking round.

4691. Is there no exterior wall ?
No.

4692. When it becomes necessary, in consequence of the ill health of a
prisoner, to give him open air exercise, how do you provide for it ?

He is sent into one of the airing-yards vnth an officer.

4693. Have you an airing-yard r
Yes, we have three airing-yards.

4694. Earl Cathcart.'] It has been lately stated, in a very widely-circulated
journal, that bribery prevails to a great extent in prisons ; did you ever know a
case where a prisoner, or the relations or friends of a prisoner endeavoured to
bi'ibe a warder ?

No, not in my prison.

4695. Chairman-] Have you ever known of the introduction of prohibited
articles of food through any of the prison officers !

No, not through any of the officers.

4696. Have you ever known of their introduction at all ?

Some years ago I have known it done through the friends of the prisoners,
but not of late years.

4697. What means of communication had the prisoners with their friends?
They brought the prohibited article secreted in their dress, and tried to pass

them when visiting the prisoners.

(37. IS.) 3 H 3 4698. Are

430 MIXUTiiS OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

^, ^ ^ 4608. Are a prisoner's friends allowed to pay him visits ?

Mr.J^yton. Yg^, at Certain times.

5ti t-Jay 1863. 4699. How frequently, and after what period of confinement ?
~ The convicted male prisoners are allowed to be seen at the expiration of three

months of their time, and once- every subsequent two months.

4700. What are the arrangements under which they are seen ?

Now they are brought into one of the airing -yards, and are seen through the
bars of a small office, so that it is quite impossible that anything can be
introduced without the officer present seeing and knowing that such is the case.

4701 . How frequently do the men go to the chapel ?
Every morning.

4702. Earl Cathcart.'j What do men do at night for tlie necessities ot
nature ?

They have a closet in every room with the exception of one ; there is one
closet to two large rooms, and in the one room without the closet those mea
who cannot get to the closet have a night convenience taken in.

4703. Does not that make the room very disagreeable r
That room it does.

4704. Almost unbeax'able, I presume.
I should say almost unbearable.

4705. Chairman.~\ The Committee understand, from what you have stated
to them, that communications pass quite freely between prisoner and prisoner r

Yes.

4706. Have you ever become aware of the injurious results of that commu-
nication ?

I have not become aware of it ; I have understood that such has been the
case, but I could not say so from the sources which I have heard it from ; I could
not say that there was any truth in it, nor could one rely upon the source
from whence we obtain the information ; but I have no doubt in my own mind
that plans are concocted, and things carried out iu the rooms that we have no
control over.

4707. Do you not think that it is probable that a prisoner who may be sent
in there for a first conviction may, through associating with a previously con-
victed prisoner, be very easily contaminated ?

I do think so, and I am always very anxious to pi-event that prisoner from
associating with any others of the bad class.

4708. You endeavour to neutralise it as far as lies in your power, by classifi-
cation ?

Yes.

4709. But you do not believe that the classification is altogether eflfective ?
No, it is not effective.

4710. Earl of Dudley.'] You have no real and proper separation, as I under-
stand r

Ko ; I have eight cells, and these I chiefly keep for juveniles, and prisoners
committed for trial; that is all the separation that we have. Within the last
three or four months I have had seven prisoners under sentence of penal ser-
vitude, and those prisoners I was compelled to i)lace in those cells.

47 n. But then they again, at certain times of the year, have free access to
the other prisoners, Iiave they not ?
No, 1 keep them entirely separate.

4712. But during any portion of the day, during chapel hours, or anything
of that sort, cannot they get to the other prisoners ?

Only during chapel, and tlien no communication can take place without its
being seen.

4713. Earl CV/Z/iaa'/.] Is there anytliing to prevent two prisoners being in
one bed, or have they each a si parate bed '.

They have each a sej)arate bed, but there is nothing to prevent them from
placing two beds together.

4714. Have

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 431

4714. Have you ever had any charges of a disgraceful and felonious cha- Mr. J. Dujjf.on.

racter r

\q_ Sit May 1863.

4715. Earl of Dudley.'] Have you any means of knowing it if it does go on ?
No, certainly not ; but I have never heard of any complaint of the kind.

4716. Chairman.'] You wish the Committee to understand,, that under cir-
cumstances such as you have described, it is almost impossible for you to dis-
charge your duty in a manner satisfactory to yourself ?

I feel that it is so.

4717. iNIarquess of ;S«feiw^.] Has ther^ been an estimate made of the
expenditure necessary for the new gaol ?

I am not aware whether the estimates have been brought before the Jus-
tices ; but I know that they are about to write to different architects upon the
subject.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

MR. GEORGE WHITEHALL is called in, and examined as follows : Mr. G- Whitehall.

4718. ChairmaJi.] YOU are Governor of the Poole Borough prison, are
you not ?

Yes.

4719. How long have you held the appointment of Governor r
Four years.

47-0. What office did you fill previously 1

I was five years and three months in Winchester Gaol, and thi'ee years and
five months in Southampton Gaol, as one of the chief warders of Southampton
Gaol.

4721. ^Miat office did you fill in Winchester Gaol?
I was assistant warder there.

4722. What are the average number of prisoners who are confined in Poole
Gaol ?

About two.

4723. What is the largest number that you have ever had at the same time ?
Eleven.

4724. And what has been the smallest number that you have ever had ?
Twice during the four years since I have been there it has been empty for

eight days.

4725. What number of warders have you under you ?
There are only myself and the matron.

47:6. Have you no one besides yourself?
No other warder.

4727. The matron looks after the female side, I presume ?
Yes, the matron looks after the female side.

4728. Are the prisoners confined in separate cells?

There are seven sleeping cells, and a day room for the prisoners in which
they associate.

4729. What is the size of the sleeping-cells ?
Eleven feet long and six feet wide.

4730. Do you ever confine the prisoners for the whole of the day and the
whole of the night in those cells ?

Not unless they are confined for refractory conduct.

473 1 . Do you ever receive into your prison prisoners who are convicted at
the assizes ?

No.

(37. 15.) 3 H 4 4732. You

432 MINUTES OF EVinENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Mi: G. Whitehall. A12>-- ^'^^^ receive only those who are convicted at tlie quarter sessions?
Yes.

5th May 1863.

4733. What is the longest sentence with which 3'on have to deal?
Nine months ; three months hefore trial and six months after.

4734. Would there be any reason why a prisoner should not be committed
to the Poole Borough Gaol for 1 8 months or two years ?

I do not see any myself.

4735- ^^ hat quarter sessions send you your prisoners ?
They are sent to the Poole quarter sessions.

4736. What are the average nuiflber of prisoners that are tried at the Poole
quarter sessions ?

One, and two, and sometimes there have been three.

4737. Marquess of Salisburi/.^ What is the population of Poole.
About ten thousand.

4738. Chairman. 1 When you have as many as 11 or 12 prisoners in the gaol,
has it ever happened that amongst them there has been a refractory prisoner ?

]Vo, there has not.

4739. It might be so, I suppose.
It might be so, of course.

4740. How would you be able to deal with such a case by yourself without
the assistance of any other warders 1

I should immediately then communicate with the police ; the police station
is about 100 yards from the prison ; I have the mayor's authority for so doing.

4741 . Have you ever had any attempts at escape :
Yes.

4742. Have those attempts ever been successful?
Yes.

4743. How frequently ?
Once.

4744. How did the prisoner escape ?

A sister of mine was appointed recently as matron of the gaol, in conse-
quence of the death of my wife, who had been principal warder of Winchester
gaol, and knew the duties of the office, but one day my sister neglected to bring
the key into our room, and hung it up in the office, which the prisoner had
access to, and he took the key and went out through the garden.

4745. Earl of Romney.'] Was he the only prisoner there at that time ?

It happened to be so then ; he was re-captured in seven days afterwards.

4746. Chairman.'] Have you ever had any violence shown by any prisoner ?
Not since I have been there.

4747. Have you ever known of it?
I have never heard of such a case.

474IS. When you have more than one or two prisoners in gaol, do they sleep
in separate cells, or have you any dormitory ?

They sleep in separate cells ; there are seven cells, and if there are more than
seven prisoners in the gaol I sleep them three together.

4749. Where do those three together sleep ?
They sleep in one of the cells.

47,'',o. Do you mean to say that those three i)risoners would sleep in one of
those small cells which you have described ?
Yes, that is where we have placed them once.

4751. Is there room for more than one bed?
I place two beds there on those occasions.

4752. Did those three prisoners sleep in one bed ?

One night they slept on the two beds placed side by side ; it only occurred so
one night.

4753. Three

5tli May i 863.

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 433

4753. Three prisoners slept in one bed in this small cell ? Mr. G. Whitehall.
Yes, one night three prisoners slept on two beds placed side by side.

4754. But that might happen again, if from any accident the prison hap-
pened to be full ?

It never has been so during the four years that I have been there.

4755. During the day, are the prisoners associated together r
They are.

4756. Do you associate together all classes of prisoners, whether they have
been untried, or whether they have been tried ?

No ; there is a debtors' ward, and if the debtors' ward is empty I do not then
associate them together ; but if there happens to be a debtor in prison I should
be compeUed then to associate them togerher, unless the female ward was empty.

4757. The untried and the tried together ?
Yes.

4758. Would you be obliged, under any circumstances, to associate to-
gether a prisoner re-convicted for felony with a misdemeanant ?

If there happened to be a debtor in the prison I should then be obliged to
associate them together.

4759- You have only one room for the purpose ?

There is a debtors' ward and a criminal ward, but I should have to associate
them together.

4760. You have only one common room besides the debtors' part?
That is all.

4761 . Have you ever seen any mischief resulting from this association, either
by day or by night ?

I never have.

4762. Have you ever heard of any mischief?
No, I have not.

4763. It is stated in one of the recent reports that the female rooms of the
prison are approached by a dangerous staircase, and are very close and un-
wholesome ; is that the case ?

That is the most unwholesome part that there is.

4764. Are the female ro(Jms separated from the men's side ?
They are.

4765. How are they separated?
It is a distinct ward from the male ward altogether.

4766. Is it possible for an}'' communication to pass ?
No, it is impossible for there to be any communication. The sleeping cells

on the women's side are 12 feet by 12.

4767. Is the staircase in a very dangerous condition ?
It is not dangerous ; but it comes down so very steep, that if any one does

not mind how he comes down, he is liable to fall from the top to the bottom.

4768. Is there any ventilation for those female wards ?
Each of the windows lets down, and we can take the window away altogether,

so that there is a current of air right through.

4769. Do you ever do that ?
We always make them take down those windows every morning, so that thej

get the open air.

4770. Do you make them take down the windows, and sleep without them?
No, they are up at night, and we take them down in the day time ; there are

two windows, one is a glass casement, and the other is an iron casing.

4771. Marquess of Salisburij.'] You mean that you have iron bars beyond
the glass ?

Yes.

(37. 16-) 3 I 4772. Chairman.'^

434 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Mt. G. Whitehall. 4773- Chairman.^ What means of labour have you in the prison ?
— — The wheel labour and pickina; oakum.

5th May 1863.

_ 4773- Is tliat the only form of labour ?

That is the only form.

4774. Who sets the prisoners their task at the oakum ?
I do.

4775. How many men are necessary to turn the wheel ?
I can put one, the pressure for one or for four.

4776. Can one man turn the wheel ?
Yes.

4777. Do you work the tread wheel with one ?
Yes.

477(S. How many hours labour do you give him ?
Seven and a half hours.

4779. Earl of Dudley. 1 Do you stand and watch himf

Yes, I am there ; sometimes I am obliged to leave if there happens to be
a ring at the gate, and my sister was out of the way.

4780. And the prisoner leaves too, I suppose ?

No ; because I am not away above a minute or so at the gate, because the
yard is close to it, and 1 only have to unlock the gate.

4781 . Chairman.'] Does he not probably stop, wliilst you are away ?

He cannot stop, because I should hear directly by the motion of the wheel,
whether it was stopped or no.

4782. At any rate, you are in constant attendance, with that one single
exception ?

Yes, I am. I stand there all the time that he is on the wheel, or at least I
walk up and down.

4783. Marquess of Salisbury.'] Who is in charge of the prison at this moment?
The police and the matron.

4784. How many prisoners were there in your prison when you left?
There were four when I came away. I have just taken one boy to a

reformatory for two years.

4785. You occasionally leave the prison, and go out of doors, do you not ?
Yes.

4786. How do you provide for the custody of the prisoners while you are
absent ?

They are locked up in the yard.

4787. What is the height of the wall ?
Twenty-two feet.

4788. Is there an outside wall running round the building?
Yes, there is sharp glass placed round the wall.

4789. Earl of Romneii.'] Do the prisoners' friends throw tobacco over the wall r
Not often.

4790. What is the diet that you give the prisoners?
The same class as that at the Dorchester County Gaol.

4791. Have you got a table of the dietary with you?
Yes, I think 1 have {producing the same).

4792. How do you provide for the diet being served out to the prisoners in
accordance with this classification ?

It is contracted for.

4793. Who contracts for it?

A person in the town, one of the innkeepers.

4794. What is the contract ?

bs. &d.& head per week.

4795. And

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 435

4795. And he contracts to send in food to the prison according to those Mr. G. Whitehall.
classes ? - —

Yes, according to those classes. 5tli May 1863.

4796. How does he know to which class the prisoners belong ; do you com-
municate witii him ?

Yes, I communicate with him.

4797. Is there a surgeon attached to the gaol ?

Yes.

4798. What salary does he receive r
£. 1 5 a year.

4799. Do you mean to say that he is in constant attendance on the gaol?
He calls twice a week, and whenever a prisoner comes in, I communicate with

him, and he comes down and sees the man, to see whether he is fit for wheel
labour or not.

4800. Is there a chaplain attached to the gaol ?

He is not appointed, but he comes in every Friday to see the prisoners.

4801. Who is he?

The Rector of St. James'.

4802. That is the principal parish I presume ?
Yes, tliat is the principal parish in Poole.

4803. I see that in one of the previous reports it is stated, that the prison-
books when looked at by the inspector, were unintelligible to him, have you
got a copy of those accounts with you ?

No ; these forms which I hold in my hand are different from those the inspector
has seen. I do not know whether it is two or three years since I have seen the
inspector. I could not be quite positive which, without referring to the book.

4804. Have you a sheet showing the system on which the accounts are kept ?
No ; the only account that is kept is of the number of days that a prisoner

is in, and the amount at 5s. 6^/. per week; that is the only account that is
required to be kept ; a man is in, say, for six " eeks at 55. 6 1/. a week.

4805. Earl Cathcart.] The innkeeper's bill is the only account ?
That is the only account.

4806. Chairman.'] When is your account made up ?

Every six months ; the last account for the six months was 27 1, -s. 3d.

4807. In winter, I presume it is necessary to have fuel for the fire ?
Yes, that is shown in the returns that are sent to the Home OlKce.

4808. To what account is that carried ; how is it charged?
To the visiting justices ; their clerk checks all those accounts.

4809. How can the magistrate's clerk be aware of the number of tons of
coal which are brought into the prison, and the quantity which is used ?

The bills all come in to me ; 1 look them over, and then I pass them on to
him, and then he checks them, and forwards them to the town clerk, to be
submitted to the finance committee.

4810. Marquess oi SaUsbiiiy.] Who gives the order ?
I give the order for the coals.

4S11. Chairman.] How is the washing of the prisoners' clothes, and the
prison linen carried on ?

If there are no females in, I employ some one to wash.

48 1 2. How is the cleaning of the prison itself effected ?

The men keep the prison clean, if there are any ; it would be quite enough
for a man to do to keep it clean.

4813- Earl Cathcart.'] Have you any prison clothing?
Yes.

4814. Does it ever happen that the prisoners are left locked up altogether
by themselves without anybody being in charge of them at all ?
No ; we cannot leave, because the key is inside.

(37. 15.) 3 I 2 4815. I understand

oth May 1863.

436 MINUTES OF KVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Mr. G. Whitehall. 4815- I understand that you leave a woman there in case you go out ?
My sister is left in the prison, and then the prisoners are locked up.

4816. Is there a county police lock-up in the town ?
There is a borough lock-up.

4817. Marquess oi Salisbury.'] Which is the largest, the gaol or the borough
police lock-up ?

Ihe goal.

4818. Lord Wodthouse.] Do the borough magistrates ever visit the gaol in
the ordinary way ?

Once a month ; I may observe that the yards in which the prisoners walk are
36 feet long by 54 feet wide, and the day room that they associate in is 15
feet by 12.

4819. Earl of Itortmei/.l How far is it from Poole to Dorchester?
Twenty-six miles ; and the cost for the conveyance of two prisoners down

there keeps one man in Poole gaol for a mouth ; it costs the iDorough in six
years for the conveyance of 72 men, and their keep down there, 450 /. ;
whereas for the same term it would have cost them in the borough gaol 172 /.
for 182 men.

4820. Has the inspector ever complained of the want of efficiency, or want
of control in your gaol ?

He has never complained when he has been round with me ; at one time
when he has been round, I happened to have one female in, and I think the
next time lie came round there was one male in ; I think he has been twice
during the four years.

4821. Has he ever made any suggestions to you for the improvement of the
prison ?

Never ; he stated once that the inside ofthe prison looked a great deal better
than the outside ; which has since been attended to ; for there was a great
deal of glass on the top of the wall, with a great deal of vegetation on the top,
which w ante.d cleaning off, and that has been cleaned off, and the wall has been
reglassed.

4822. Are you aware whether the subject of the condition of the gaol has
ever been considered by the visiting justices ?

No.

4823. Earl of X)«^%.] Do they seem quite satisfied with the existing state
of things ?

Yes ; so far as their report in the visiting justices' book goes.

4824. C/iairman.'] Do they state that it is a satisfactory condition of things ?
Yes, and so does the recorder ; every three months the recorder visits us,

and he goes through the gaol. The magistrates visit us once a month.

4825. Lord IFcnsleydale.] What is your salary ?
£. GO for me and my wife, with a house to live in, and coals.

4826. Have you any rations ?

No.

4827. Earl of Eonmcy.] Are the prisoners pretty well contented when they
are in your prison ?

I have heard females say that they would much rather be in Dorchester
Gaol than in Poole Gaol, because there are very few females ; sometimes I
have not had above four in during the year, and when they are in the female
ward they are by themselves, whereas they have some opportunity of talking
when they are a't Dorchester, and of being together more than they have at
Poole when they are only there singly.

4828. Chairman.'] When you take the prisoners from their separate cells,
supjiosing they are in sejiarate cells, to tlic treadwheel, do you take take them
all together, or do you take any precautions for preventing their loitering
about ?

In the summer time when they come off the wheel, they sit down on the
steps and pick oakum till the time they go on the wheel again, and when they

come off the wheel they pick oakum again.

4829. Are

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 437

4829. Are they locked in their cells at night ? Mr. G. Whitehall.
Yes, there is a door leading into a passage, and a large iron gate, which is ^jj^ ^^863.

locked, and the doors of their cells are locked and bolted also.

4830. Earl of Dudley.'] But they are together, are they not ?

No, they are separate ; each man is separate, unless there are more than the
ceils will contain.

4831. I understood you to state that it has happened that you have been
obliged to put them together ?

Twice ; there were two boys whom I was compelled to put to sleep together ;
they were two little boys, one 10 years old, and the other 12, and 1 let them sleep
together.

4832. Lord Wodehouse.'] Is there a railway between Poole and Dorchester?
Yes.

4833. Earl of Dudley.] What is the cost of the conveyance of a prisoner to
Dorchester ?

12*. for each prisoner.

4S34. The Committee understood you to state just now that the cost of con-
veying a prisoner from Poole to Dorchester is so great, that the conveyance
of two would amount to the keep of one man in Poole Gaol for a month ; what
did you include in that ?

Only the conveyance of the prisoner and his guard.

4835. Chairman.] Supposing that a prisoner refuses to work upon the tread-
wheel, what would you do ?

I should lock him up, and I should punish him with a day's bread and water;
if I found that that would not do, then I should call in the magistrates for them
to deal with him ; but I have generally found that answer. I have given a man
two or three days bread and water for refractory conduct.

4836. Earl of Romney.'\ In cases where that has not answered, what has been
done r

I have never had a case in which it has not answered ; I have generally found
the bread and water sufficient.

4837. Earl oi Dudley.] You find the stoppage of food to be a powerful argu-
ment ?

Yes.

4838. Do you feel altogether safe yourself, being alone, when you have three
or four men in gaol ?

I have never felt timid, because the police-station is about 100 yards from
me, and I have every opportunity of communicating with them.

4839. Chairman.] Have you an alarm-bell ?
Yes, there are two, one in each yard.

4840. Do you think that you would be safe yourself, and that you could
answer for the custody of the prisoners, if those alarm-bells were taken
away ?

I think so, because there is nothing by which they can escape. The wall is
between 18 and 20 feet high, and there is sharp glass all round the top, and
they have no bed-clothes that they can get at, or anything that they might
throw up to the wall. It could only be effected by a companion outside throw-
ing something over to them for the purpose.

4841. If that was done they might easily escape ?

I do not know that they could easily escape ; of course it might be possible.

4842. Did you not state that occasionally you were obliged to leave the
prison, and that you have locked the doors and left the prisoners in the yard.

Yes.

4843. Supposing that at that time any of their comrades outside threw a
rope over the wall, would they not easily get out ?

(37 15.) 3 I 3 Facing

438 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Mr. G. Whitehall. Facing the wall there are no less than seven or eight houses, which lead right

• down to the prison, so that they would be very bold to come there and throw

5111 May 1863. ^ rope over in the day-time.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

MR. JOSEPH CONSTANCE is called in, and Examined, as follows :

Mr, J. Constance. 4844. Chairman.'] YOU are the Governor of the New Radnor Gaol, are

you not ?

Yes.

4845. That is a borough gaol ?
Yes.

4846. How long have you held the office of governor ?
Nine months.

4847. Had you had any experience of prisons previously to that ?

No ; all the prisoners that are committed for the borough are, by an
arrangement with the county, transferred to the county gaol at Presteign ;
they are not kept in the gaol at New Radnor.

4848. For how long are they confined in New Radnor Gaol r

Not at all ; they are transferred to Presteign as soon as they are committed,
and the borough pays the county for the support of them.

4849. Then, in fact, you have no establishment in the gaol?

No.

4850. Lord Steward.] What are your duties ?

I am serjeant-at-mace and serjeant of police as well ; it is merely to keep
the right in the borough that I am appointed at all.

4H51. Lord Wodeho7isc.] It is, in fact, a mere lock-up ?

Yes ; it is used as the county lock-up ; but they can keep prisoners there if
they think proper.

4852. Chairman.] Do you ever lock them up more than one night?
No.

48.53. How long is it since this arrangement has been in force ?
Two years.

4854. Lord fVodehouse.] The borough contracts with the county for the
maintenance of the prisoners ?

Yes.

4855. Has that arrangement been found quite satisfactory ?
Yes.

4856. Lord Steward.] Do you know whether the cost to the borough is
greater or smaller than it used to be when they kept the prisoners in their
own gaol ?

Smaller, I believe.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Ordered, That the Committee bo adjourned to Thui'sday next.

One o'clock.

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 439

BieJovis, T Mali 1863.

LORDS PRESENT

Lord Stewakd.
Earl of CaknaeVon.
Earl of RoMNET.
Earl Cathcart.
Earl of DuciE.

Earl of Dudley.

Lord WODEHOUSE.

Lord Wensleydale.
Lord Lyveden.

THE EARL OF CARNARVON, in the Chair.

Evidence on

Prison Discipline.

THOMAS HARPUR COLVILL, Esq., is called iff, and examined as follows : T. H. Cohill, E,q.

4857. Chairman.'] YOU are the Governor of Coldbath Fields' Prison, are tayi 3.
you not ?

Yes.

4858. How long is it since you have held that appointment?
About eight years and a half.

4859. Did you hold any appointment of the same sort previously to your
present office ?

I was an officer in the army previously.

4860. What is the average number of prisoners in Coldbath Fields ?
The daily average last year was 1,594.

486 1 . How many cells have you which are certified ?
None.

468'.!. Have you any cells for separate confinement?

We have cells used as sleeping-rooms ; the prisoners are shut up in those
cells at six in the evening, and remain there till half -past six the next
morning.

4863. Are those cells lighted ?

Not at night ; they have merely the daylight.

4864. What is the size of those cells ?

They are of different sizes ; none of them are fit to be certified.

4865. By how much do they fall short of the regulation standard ?

Some of them are about seven feet six inches by five, and about nine feet
high. They contain from 337 to 503 cubic feet.

4866. What is the system of ventilation in them ?

An open window, and generally an air hole in the wall.

4867. Is there no flue ?

There is no flue in most of them.

4868. Is the window capable of being shut at the discretion of the prisoner ?

Yes.

4869. In the morning those cells must be very close, I presume ?

That of course would depend upon whether the prisoner opened the window

at night or not ; but I think if a good sized cell is merely used as a sleeping

(37. 16.) 3 I 4 cell.

440 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

T. H. Colvill, Esq. cell, with the ventilation under the door, it does not become very close ; there

are some flues, but they are not of much effect. The prisoners will generally

7th May 1863. j^ warm weather open the window, and there will be some little current of
air even when it is closed. There are also air holes communicating with the
passages. ,

4870. Are there water-closets within those cells?

No ; each prisoner is provided with a cell utensil for the night.

4871 . How many of those cells are there r

The present number is 959 ; but we are constantly building and making
new cells.

4872. When you make a new cell, do you have them of the same size as the
prescribed standard ?

No, we add as we can add. The prison was originally built for about 300
prisoners, and it has lately held as many as 1,750, and it is only by continually
adding a piece here and a piece there, and building a room, and adding a
dormitory, and so on, that that number has been accommodated.

4873. Therefore, you add rather with the view of separating the prisoners at
night than with a view to establishing the separate system as a whole ?

Yes, we have not attempted to establish the separate system as a whole ; but
at present new cells are building with a view to the separate system ; two new
wings, with about 320 ceUs, are now in progress.

4874. Are they of the same size as those in Pentonville ?

No, a smaller size, much smaller than those in Pentonville ,• but they are of
the size that the inspector and the Home Office have approved for separate
confinement, being well ventilated and lighted, and provided with all the
necessary conveniences. They are 1 1 feet by 6^ feet, and 8J feet high.

4875. "What do you reckon the cost of construction per cell of that size ?
The total expense voted was 30,000 /. for 326 cells ; that includes the exca-
vation and other particulars.

4876. There must consequently be some 700 or 800 prisoners who sleep in
dormitories'

Yes, the number which the prison is capable of containing in separate sleeping
cells is 959. The number of prisoners which the prison is capable of contain-
ing, where more than one prisoner sleeps in one cell, is 558. A greater number
still is accommodated by laying them down on the floor in spare rooms.

4877. In the dormitories proper, how are the prisoners accommodated ?
In hammocks, about 100 in a room, each man having a hammock.

4878. What is the interval from hammock to hammock ?
They almost toucli ; the beds touch, you may say.

4879. Arc the men classified in any way in those dormitories?

There are certain classes of prisoners that we prefer to put in the dormitories,
and others that we prefer to keep in cells. For instance, men sentenced to
penal servitude, and who might be more likely to attempt to escape or mutiny
at night, are always put in separate cells, and prisoners who are subject to
fits, and who might require attention in the night, are always put in the dormi-
tories ; we have certain rules of that kind.

4880. Do you separate them according to the classification of misdemeanants,
vagrants and felons '!

Yes, !is far as possible.

4881 . Would you ever place untried prisoners in the dormitories ?
We have no untried prisoners ; they are all convicted prisoners.

4882. Do you separate the more juvenile off"enders from the older ones?
Yes, the juveniles are completely separate ; they all sleep in cells, unless they

are subject to fits.

4883. Is there any night light in the room?

Yes, and we lock two sub-warders up in the large dormitories all night.

4884- Is

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 441

4S84. Is there any sleeping apai'tment in which there is not a warder? T. H. Cokill, Es/i,

No, excepting tlie separate cells, where we have only one prisoner ; we always ~ „

have an officer in the dormitories, or where two or more prisoners are together. ^

4885. Do you believe that that close approximation of hammock to hammock,
is a satisfactory arrangement ?

It is a very unsatisfactory arrangement, I think.

48S6. Have you had evidence of that since you have been Governor of the
gaol ?

Yes, continually.

4887. In what shape has that come before you ?

In the general management of the prison ; in fact, from the nature of the
case, it stands to reason that it must be unsatisfactory.

4888. Have prisoners ever complained to you about it ?

I can hardly say that they have complained to me about it ; but they have
frequently asked to be removed fiom a dormitory to a separate cell ; they
often make requests of that kind ; some again make a request to be removed
from a separate cell, and to be put in a dormitory.

4889. Do you not believe that the probability is that comunication of a very
unsatisfactory nature may pass between tlie prisoners ?

There must be some communication, but it is wonderfully little, owing to their
being so well watched by the officers, who are constantly with them ; but of
course there is some communication

4890. Is the rule of silence enforced r
Yes, day and night.

4891. Is it strictly observed ?
Yes ; generally.

4892. Have you ever had reason to suppose that robberies or misdemeanors
of any sort have been concocted while in prison from this system of associa-
tion?

No, I have not known any such case.

4893. Would you be surprised to hear that it was so ?

It is possible that such a thing might be done ; but I think that their com-
munications do not generally, in such cases, exceed " How long have you got,"
" When are you going- out,"' and trifling cojumunications of that kind, which
are not of any great consequence.

4804. In the other rooms where the prisoners sleep, what are the arrange-
ments there ?

In some of the rooms they merely lie on the floor on mattresses ; the whole
of the floor is coaled over in one room with mattresses, on which the prisoners
lie as close as they can be packed, about 140 in one room lying on the floor,
and they have been so now for a considerable time.

4895. Is not that a very bad arrangement ?
It is a very bad arrangement indeed.

4896. Lord Stacn-d.] Tliat will cease to be the case, will it not, when the
new cells are made ?

Yes, in a great measure. Of course, the governor is obliged to take all
prisoners who are sent to him, and if there is no proper place to put them, he
can only do the best he can.

4897. Earl Cat/icart.] Are there any gangways left between the beds when
they are littered on the floor ?

Yes, there is some little passage kept, so as to allow men to get to the closet
and pass in and out.

48^8. Do you put prisoners in association who are in prison for most
degrading animal crimes ?

We do not make much difference. We treat them all pretty much upon
one system. If any special instance came under my notice, I might consider
that a reason for putting a man in a separate cell ratlaer than in a dormitory.

(37. iG.) 3 K 4899- Is

442 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

T. H. ColvtU, Esq. 4899. Is not that close watching of two warders in a room very expensive ?
7th May 1863. ^* ^^ ^^^y expensive. At present there are 15 officers in dormitories whose
wages amount to 858 I. per annum at the lowest rate.

4900. Chairman.] Do you believe that it is completely effectual ?
It cannot be completely effectual.

4901. How many prisoners do those two warders superintend ?
Generally about 100.

4902. What is the length of the room ?
Eighty-three feet by 25, and 14 feet high.

4903. I presume tht^ warders themselves are asleep a part of the time ?

No, if they are seen asleep they are heavily fined. The sub-warders are
watched by other officers, and an officer who is seen to shut his eyes for a
moment would be fined.

4904. How do you institute a watch over those warders ?

A superior officer goes round the prison, and looks into the rooms, to see
whether they are doing their duty.

4905. Would it not be difficult to detect it if a warder was asleep ?
No, there is no difficulty in it.

4906. Would not the opening of the door, or the approach of a light wake
him ?

The officer does not open the door, but he looks through a spy-hole.

4907. Lord Steivard.] Do you not use tell-tales ?

We have no means of watching the officer who goes round the prison at
night, but when the officer has no one to overlook him, we use a tell-tale
clock, which lie has to mark every half hour during the night.

4908. Ckahmati.] How frequently do the superior officers make their rounds
to ascertain that the warders are not asleep r

They are going about all night.

4909. Do they look in as often as three times during the night ?
Yes, they look into every sleeping-room at least once eveiy hour.

4910. What check have you upon the superior officers doing their duty ?
Mo very great check, except that from a prisoner, or from the other officers,

I might hear of gross neglect which the superior officer ought to have seen
if he had been attending to his duty ; and 1 go round myselC at night occa-
sionally.

491 1. How many i^uperior officers of this class have you in the prison ?

In each building there is one superior warder, or night-watcliman, up all
night, whose duty it is to keep constantly patrolling about the prison, watching
the several officers, to report on any matter, and to call for assistance if anything
should happen to be wrong. This officer is one of the ordinary warders ; they
take this duty in turn ; we have two classes, warders and sub -warders ; the
sub-warders only do the duty in the rooms, and the warders take the outside
duty of superintending them.

4912. What is the pay of those warders?

The warders have |)ay at various rates ; the highest class have 38*. a week,
after 1 5 years' service, and the lowest 22 s.

4913. Do you require the warders who are employed in patrolling at night,
to perlorm any duty during the day ?

No.

4914. Do you change them for this servicer

Yes ; the warder who goes about the building takes the duty for four weeks,
and then he comes in to do day-duty in the ordinary way, and they take it in
turn ; the sub-warders in the rooms change every week ; they are one week on
night-duty, and then they come in to do day-duty.

49 1 5. Earl Cafhcart.'] Did you ever know a warder to be bribed, either by
a prisoner, or by the friends of a prisoner 1

Yes, there have been such cases.

4916. Have

SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 443

4916. Have there been many such cases ? ^- ^- ^"' ^*?-
I cannot say many; it is very difficult to detect it. ^^■^ -^^^ jg^^

4917. Do you believe that the system prevails at all r

It does to some extent.

4918. \jovALyveden.'] You do not, in Coldbath Fields, make any effort to
prevent the recognition of prisoners by each other r

No, none.

4q 1 9. You make no attempt at it by masks, or any other device, to prevent
recognition ?

No : it would be almost impossible to carry that out.

4920. Have you not sufficient means at your disposal in the establishment,
or do you think it generally unadvisable r

I think, as a general rule, it is found almost impracticable to carry it out in
any prison.

4921. Have you any experience of other prisons besides Coldbath Fields ?
Merely what I have heard and read.

4922. Have you come to the conviction that it is impossible to prevent the
prisoners recognizing each other when they leave the prison?

Almost impossible.

4923. Chairman.'] Have you had many cases of typhus or low fever in your
prison ?

We had upwards of 30 cases of typhus or low fever from November 1861 to
September 1862.

4924. Did the medical officers attribute that to the system of association ?
No, 1 think not. The cases occurred chiefly among prisoners who had been

recently admitted.

4925. Would there not be a risk that if typhus or low fever took hold of a
prisoner it would speedily be communicated from one prisoner to another ?

It would aj)pear to be probable, but we have not had any instances of the
kind, we have been generally free from it. The prison has been remarkably
healthy considering its A'ery crowded state. The number of deaths last year
was only 13, with a daily average of 1,594.

4926. Is the prison well drained?
1 think it is.

4927. Earl of Z)w?e.] I suppose nobody defends the system that is now in
operation at Coldbath Fields r

Not altogether.

4928. Are you yourself satisfied with the state of things there?
No, I am not satisfied.

4929. But are there such improvements in operation as will make it satisfac-
tory eventually ?

No, I do not think the prison could be made wholly satisfactory without being
entirely rebuilt.

4930. Earl Caf/icai t.] Will you point out a few of the evils of association
which you have observed of the most glaring kind?

There must be more or less communication in a crowded prison of that kind,
where the prisoners are constantly together, and much lying when they are
accused of talking ; but I think some association better than entire separation
in many cases.

4931. Does anything take place like assaults, or one prisoner bullying
another prisoner, or cutting down hammocks at night, or anything ot that
kind ?

No, nothing of that kind. The order and discipline that is maintained is
wonderful.

4932. But the diseiphne is maintained at great expense, is it not ?

The great exi)(nse is the system of dormitories, and the necessity of having

officers watching the prisoner to carry out the silent system ; if every prisoner

(^7.16.) 3k2 had

444 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

f. H. Colxill, Esq. had a sleeping cell, which would be to carry out the real system of the prison,
then that expense would be very much saved.

-til May 1S63.

4933. Cftainiinn.] What scale of diet do you adopt and approve of?
I have one of my dietary tables with me.

4934. Is that framed upon the Government scale r
No, it is not.

4935. jLurd Steward.] Is it higher or lower than the Government scale ?

It differs from the Ciovernment scale ; we give [jrisoiiers sentenced to terms
exceeding two months, six ounces of cooked meat four days in the week,
whereas the Government tables only give four ounces ; I consider the six
ounces too much, and the magistrates are now considering the subject of reduc-
ing that allowance.

4936. Chiirnnan.'] As I understand, you are two ounces ahead of thi^ Govern-
ment ?

Yes, in the matter of meat. Then the Government tables give a pound of
potatoes every day, whereas we give considerably less ; we give two pounds a
week, whereas the Government would give seven pounds of potatoes. We give
24 ounces of meat per week, whereas the Government give only IG ounces, and
our prisoners get each a pint and a half of soup on the three other days when
they do not get meat.

4937. Will you hand in the scale of diet?
Yes (^delivering in the saiiu:).

4938. Has any revision of this table taken place lately :
Yes ; it is now under the consideration of the court.

4939. Lord Steward.] Is the whole scale under consideration ?
Yes, the whole scale.

4040. Earl Calhcart.] Was it in consequence of the outbreak of typhus fever
that the diet was increased r

\o ; there was no increase 'made on that account ; there was a change made.

4941. That probably would be in consequence of the fever which broke out
just before, was that so ?

No; there was a rule made some years ago to give no prisoner the first class
diet till he had been two months in the prison, and afterwards they returned
to the ori-inal rule, that all prisoners sentenced to more than two months im-
prisonment should have the first-class diet from the day of their admission.
But the old system was resumed in August 18GI, and the first case of typhus
was in November 18GI.

4942. Earl of Dudley.] Why was it changed back again ?
'1 he sugeon and others thought that it was a bad system.

4943. Was it absolutely found to be a bad system ?
It was not proved so to my satisfaction.

4944. Would it be advisable to put all prisoners upon the lowest diet first,
and increase it by degrees ?

Our surgeon and the Inspector of Prisons, were of opinion that if the
prisoners did not get good diet from their first achnision, they would break
down after some time, and that there would be more expense and more diffi-
culty in the end in bringing them up to health again with increased diet, than
if they had had full diet from the first.

494,-,. Earl Calhcart.] Did I rightly understand you to state that it was in
conse(|uen(!e of the outbreak of typhus fever tliat the diet was increased ?
No, I do not tliiiik so.

4946. Chairman.] Is there any suggestion that you would wish to make to
the Committee ?

One remark that I would like to make is, that I think one of the great
evils is the uncertainty of sentences ; great evil is produced by a prisoner
bein"- allowed to plead guilty, and being treated as a summary conviction

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 445

by the magistrates instead of being sent to trial, whereby old offenders T. H. Cohill, Esq.
constantly come into ])rison for very shorty sentences, who, if they had been -th Ma~i86i
committed for trial, \Yould have got very long ones. ' _^

4947. Earl of Dudley.'] Is that from the fact of their non-recognition ?

Yes ; it appears to me very desirable that a prisoner charged with any
serious offence should be sent to prison, in order tliat, as far as possible, he
may be recognised before he is sentenced.

4948. Chairman.'] Have you ever made any use of photography ?

No. our numbers are too great ; tlie number admitted last year was upwards
of 9,000.

4()49. Would not it be possible to photograph those individuals who come in
under suspi(;ious circumstances ?
It might be used in selected cases.

4()50. Do not you think that that would be a great advantage ?
That would depend very much vipon how it was used.

4951. Would you see any objection to affixing a mark (such as is done in
the Army) upon a prisoner after a second or third conviction for felony .-
1 think it would be highly desirable.

4052. Do you consider that it would be anything which would seriously
impair the prisoner's chance of obtaining honest employment afterwards,
supposing he was prepared to turn over a new leaf r

No ; not if it is put in a place where it need not be discovered unless looked
for.

4953 Lord Li/vedeti.] You would recommend that an offender should be
sent to the prison to be recognised before sentence is passed ?

When a prisoner is charged with a serious offence, the magistrate should
remand him to the House of Detention, or give directions for his being taken
to the prison, and there being seen by the prison officers before he is again
brought up for sentence.

4054. That would be confined, of course, to London prisons ; it would not
go beyond tliat .'

Yes ; I could give the Committee some instances which would bear out my
remarks. One prisoner, A. B., who had been five times before in Coldbath
Fields, was committed on a summarv conviction for stealing 18 lbs. of cheese ;
he pleaderl guilty, and was sentenced to six weeks. That was the sixth time
that he had been convicted. On the same day, C. D. was tried at the Sessions
for stealing 3 5. and a handkerchief ; that was his fifth conviction, and he
was sentenced to 10 years' penal servitude. E. F., who had been six times
before in prison, was convicted for stealing a bridle, and sentenced to six months,
after having pleaded gviilt}\

4955. In the majority of cases, are not the previous sentences of prisoners
imknown to the magistrates ?

I suppose so.

4956. What would have been the sentence had the previous convictions
been known ?

^lost hkely they would iiave been committed for trial, and sentenced to
penal servitude.

4q.'')7- Earl of Dud/ei/.'] Do not you think that a mark affixed to a prisoner
would do away with the dissatisfaction which arises from the fact that the officers
are not always willing to come forward to speak to their knowledge of a prisoner
from the insufficient remuneration which is allowed ?

I think that it would be most useful. I think also that some check should be
placed upon the change of names ; an old prisoner, upon a new conviction,
always changes his name, and so makes it more difficult to trace his history.

4958. Would not that also be done away with by the prisoner having a mark
affixed to him ?

You could hardly sentence a man merely because he had a mark, to any

eat extent.

(37. 10-) 3 K 3 49'59 Earl

446 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

T. H. ColviU, Esq. 4959- Earl of Honmei/.'] Have you many cases of insubordination in prison ?

Wonderfully few, considerina; the crowded state of the prison.

7th May 1863. ' '^ '■

^qbo. What are the offences generally for which prison punishments are

flicted ?

Neglect of work and talking ; for assaults upon officers, prisoners are gene-
rally flogged with the cat-o'nine-tails.

4961. What is the most eBVctive punishment?
I think flogging is the most effective.

4962. Earl of Dudley.'] You would be very unwilling, would you not, to give
up the power of flogging ?

Yes ; I think it would be almost impossible to maintain discipline, in such a
large prison as mine, without it.

49*13. Chairman.'\ Is there any other suggestion which you would wish to
make to the Committee ?

I may mention that there is one prisoner in our prison who has been 7^
times in prison, and another man who is supposed to have been 120 times in
prison. In the case of the man who has been in "JG times, his last sentence
but one was three days.

4964. What was it in the case of the man who had been 120 times in
prison i

He has not been in very lately, but it is generally for drunken assaults
that he has committed Those cases of repeated conviction are either for
begging or drunkenness.

4965. Earl of Dudley.'] What is the Committee to infer from that? W^ould
you reconnnend cumulative punishment "-

I think there ought to be some notice taken of such repeated convictions ; short
sentences are neither deterrent nor reformatory in such cases.

4966. Earl of Romixy.l For begging, there is cumulative punishment, is
there not ?

Yes ; beggars may be committed as incorrigible rogues and vagabonds.

4967. Earl Cofl/cart.] Is not the real want to be able to trace the criminal
history of the prisoner r

"i'es, I think that is very much wanted ; and there should be more care and
pains taken to trace their history.

4968. Can you suggest any particular system, by which a communication
might be established between different prisons with regard to the character of
the prisoners ?

One plan would be to ajjpoint proper persons to do that ; at present it is no
person's particular duty, and in a large prison like mine we are all too busy to
do it ; there ought to be officers for that special purpose.

4969. Would vou have some central office in London, to circulate the different
communications amongst the different prisons ?

Y'es, I think so. I certainly think that prisons are made too comfortable,
and I srronglv recommend that they should be made less so.

4970. Dord Steward.'] Do you see any objection, in cases of short sentences,
to make the ))risoners sleep u])on guard beds?

No ; I think it would he well to do so, or on the floor.

4971. Cliairvian.'\ Have you had experience of any prisons besides Cold-
bath Fidds ?

No actual experience.

4072. Have vou, from your official position in Coldbath Fields, become
acquainted with the details of other prisons ?

I hear of other prisons, and T visit other prisons occasionally; but I can
onlv s])eak distinellv as to my owi> prison. I would mention that the bedding
which is allowed in Coldbath Fields at this moment (the "th May), consists of a
mattrass, a ))air of thick sheets, thi'ee blankets, and a rug ; and some have a
hammock and a mattrass also. The prisoners are locked up at night at six

o'clock ;

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 447

o'clock ; and if they please they can sleep, in this very warm bed, until half-past T. II. Colvill, Esq.
six the next morning. ^^^ I^, 863.

4973. Do you consider that in all respects that is injurious ? • —

I consider that it is highly injurious in every way.

4974. Earl of Dudley.^^ I presume, by that answer, that you have not gas in
your prison ?

No ; the cells are not lighted with gas.

4975. After dark you have no power of employing the prisoners ?

No ; they are locked up, principally in order to let the officers get away who
have had 12 hours' duty, which I think is quite enough.

4976. Chairman.'] Are there any other comforts which you consider und(ie
in the case of the prisoners in Coldbath Fields ?

I reported to the magistrates some time ago, that I thought the diet was
exce^sive for the majority of the prisoners ; but it acts very differently ; one
man gains and another man loses upon the same diet ; it depends upon what
he has been acustomedto, and the nature of the man. And in the same way in
regard to the labour : we have the treadwheel in Coldbath Fields ; and one
man can work on it witliout any very great labour, while another man suffers
greatly.

4977. Lord Steward.'] Do you approve of the treadwheel as a means of
punishment ?

I think the more pi'ofitable the labour for the prisoner is the better ; and I
do not think that you deter any man much from going to prison by such
punishments ; he does not consider v^hat will be the labour in the prison when
he commits a crime.

4978. What do you consider to be the effect of unproductive labour on a
prisoner.

I think it has a bad effect upon his mind. Our treadwheel is not exactly
unproductive ; we grind corn for ourselves, and make our bread also, and
supply three other prisons.

4979. Earl of Diidley.] You do not call any other labour than the treadwheel
labour, do you ?

That is the only very hard labour that we have ; but various trades are con-
sidered hard labour.

4980. Is it your opinion that the treadwheel had better be kept for a certain
class of cases than be done away with entirely ; would you retain the tread-
wheel ?

Thei'e is great ditficulty in finding sufficient labour in a large prison like
mine. There are many prisoners who know no trade, and have no power of
doing any useful labour ; and the treadwheel employs them, probably, as well as
any way that could be devised.

4981. With regard to short sentences, in fact, it is useless trying to teach
them a trade, and the treadwheel is the oidy thing that you can have
recourse to ?

Yes.

4 9!- 2. Lord Steuard.] You have suggested that the prisoners might sleep
12^ hours if they thought fit; is it not in your power to prevent them from
uusllnging their hammocks until eight or nine o'clock ?

The bedding might be kept away to a certain hour, but that would require
to keep the officers employed to a later hour.

498.3. Earl of Dudlej/.] Are there not a certain number of officers who re-idc
upon the premises ?
Only three.

4984. Earl Cathcart.] Have you any women in your prison ?
No, we have no women.

498,5. Lord Steurird.^ Would it not be very inconvenient, if there was any-
thing like the breaking out of disorderly conduct in the prison at night, to
have onlv three officers resident in the prison ?

(3;. 10.) 3 K 4 We

448 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

T. H. Colvill, Eiq, We have always a certain number in the prison. Ten officers sleep in

the rooms, besides those in the dormitories and on watch. There would be at

7th May 1863. least 30 in the prison.

49^^6. Earl Cathcart.'] In the associated wards, I presume that decency can-
not be regarded at all at nifiht ?

I see no indecency. There is a retiring place for the prisoners in the
corner of the room, with a screen. Perhaps the Committee would allow me
to call their attention to a calculation which I made some time ago respect-
ing the diet of Coldbath Fields Prison, comparing; it with tliat of two of the
neighbouring workhouses. The value of the diet gi\ en to the first class in
Coldbath Fields is 2*. \\d. a week, and in the Clerkenwell Workhouse the diet
of the paupers costs 2s. 8j d., and in the Holborn Workhouse 2 *. 7h d., showing
that the prisoner is better off than the pauper in a workhouse.

4987. Earl of Romneij^ Do you think there is anything in the circumstance
of his being in a prison that makes it necessary to feed him better ?

I think there may be ; but I think there are a great number who would
])refer going to a prison to going to the workhouse. They think that they have
more comforts in the prison.

4988. Do you think that you can carry out the criminal law in punishing
offenders in such a way as to make it more deterrent to the prisoner than it
is now ?

It is very difficult to do so ; but I think that if there were less diet, less
warmth, less bedding, and things of that kind, the comforts might be reduced
a great deal.

4989. If shorter and sharper punishments were given, such as whipping for
instance, do you think that they would have a good effect ?

I do not think it would make any great difference in the way of deterring
criminals ; I think they take their chance of consequences, and that it is not
generally anything that occurs in the piison that leads them to commit or abstain
from crime.

4990. Lord Steivard.] Are you of opinion that no system can be made
deterrent ?

You might make it more deterrent. I have no doubt the separate system is
much more deterrent than the associated system.

4991. Earl of Dudley.] If a man is determJned to commit a crime, he does
not take into account what the punishment will be '?

No ; he risks that.

4992. If a notion gets abroad that a gaol is upon the separate system, is
there not less inclination on the part of offenders to be committed to it ?

In some deeree that is the case.

49<).5. Do not you think that the criminal population of London discuss all
the prisons, and know perfectly well what the treatment will be if they are
committed to them ?

Yts; and no doubt they prefer one more than another.

4994. Earl of Romnty.'] If the discipline is not deterrent, do you imagine
that you can make it reformatory r

You can take some steps towards those results ; you can make it more
deterrent, and you can make it more reformatory ; l)ut I do not think you can
adopt any system whic^h can make the majoritv of rogues honest men. I think
that the general feeling of a man when he gets into prison for the first time is,
that a prison is a much b(;tter place than he expected.

499,> Earl ol Dudley.'] You v.ould endeavour to do away with that feeling,
would you not ?

Yes, as much as possible ; but we cannot do away with it altogether.

4991"). Earl Cat/icart.] When the prison officers are bribed, what is the usual
motive ?

Generally, it is to get tobacco carried in, and messages carried out.

4997. No

SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 449

4997. Not with a view to escape r T. H. CdvUl, Esq.
No ; a man might bribe the warder to allow him to escape, but that is next ": —

to an impossibility; the officer cannot help him much. ' *'''■■ ^ ^'

4998. Lord Steward.'] You stated just now that the knowledge that the
labour was unproductive produced a feeling of irritation in the minds of the
prisoners ; do they necessarily know to what purpose their labour is applied ?

Yes ; I think they always know, and I think that a man will work much
harder and with more goodwill when he is doing something that is useful in
its results, than when he is doing something that is useless.

4999. You stated that your treadwheel is applied sometimes to grinding corn ;
if you had ground enough corn, woukl you cease to use the treadwheel ?

No ; sometimes we apply to it a fly-wheel, when we do not want it for corn.

5000. Do you find any difference in the conduct of the prisoners when such
is the case?

I think there is more satisfaction to them when they grind corn than they
feel when they grind the wind, as they call it.

5001. Earl of liomney.'] The object of putting them on the treadwheel is to
punish tliem, is it not ■

Yes, and it has a deterrent effect, no doubt, to some extent.

5002. Earl of Dudley.] Would you be averse to a system by which a prisoner
was at first put to unproductive labour, and that the fii-st release from that
sliould be putting him to industi-ial occupation and to productive labour, a
graduated scale, in fact, in which the first state was distinctly and purely a
punishment, and the next an improvement in that respect, by the employm'ent
of productive labour?

I think it would be well to adopt such a plan.

5,003. So far as your own experience goes, do you believe that a man could
enter upon the worse diet of the shortest sentence, and so go on increasing
the diet up to the full time for which a prisoner is sentenced, which is gene-
rally 18 months. Do you think that the health of a strong man, when he
came in, could stand that ?

1 think that in many cases it could ; but it is very difficult to lay down a
sreneral rule about diet, because men are so diffei-ent.

5004. Is it not absolutely necessary to have a general rule, even if there are
many exceptions to it ?

Yes, there must be a general rule, but I should prefer that an excess of diet
should be given to those who require it, instead of having a high rate in
order that some men may not suffer.

5005. When a man is sentenced to hard labour, does he come in at once
and begin upon the hard labour diet ?

Yes.

5006. As you have not sufficient hard labour for all in jour prison, you
necessarily have many who are enjoying the diet which is given upon the
assumption that hard labour is enforced ?

All prisoners sentenced to hard labour are put upon the treadwheel in their
turn, unless they are excused for some reason.

5007. That only applies to a certain number ?

To 320 daily out of 1,700. When it is in full operation, those who work the
treadwheel are on every other day. We have besides a great number at trades,
and cleaning the prison.

5008. Every day they are enjoying the full diet, which supposes them to be
at hard labour ?

Yes ; they pick oakum when not on the treadwheel.

5009. Would you call industrial labour hard labour ?

Yes, in some cases ; for instance, smiths, masons and others may work har.l,
and generally do so with us.

5010. Is there any other labour which may be called hard labour except the
treadwheel or the crank ?

We had shot-drill at one time, but it has been discontinued.

(37. iG.) 3 L 501 1. Earl

450 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

T.H.C(d-iU,Esq. 5011. Earl oi Roniney.'] Do you consider that you wouid be justified in
" ~ ,,, putting a man at a lower scale of diet when he was not at work ?
' ''^ I should prefer keeping him 011 a regular diet.

5012. Do you think that you have any power to reduce the diei 01 a man
on a day when he is not on the wheel ?

Xo.

5013. Earl Cathcart.l A prisoner is entitled to have his diet weighed, is he
not ?

Yes.

5014. Do they exercise that power r

Sometimes. I may observe also as to the effect of diet, that on a set of
weighings which we took lately, in regular course, of men who had been 6 months
in prison, 19 had gained in all 131 lbs., while 20 had lost in all 103 lbs., and 2
had not altered in weight, out of 4 1 prisoners.

5015. Earl of Rom?iei/.'\ Were those men all receiving the full diet :
Yes.

50 iC. Earl of Vudlii/.] You do not think it necessary that a prisoner should
be turned out of gaol of the same weight as he came in ?

No ; I think that the proper result would be, that he should lose some
amount of weight, not too much, of course.

.5017. Chairman.] Will you put in a table showing the results of the diet
with regard to weight ?

I will prepare such a table for the Committee.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

fl/r. rr. Griffiths. Mr. WILLIAM GRIFFITHS is called in ; and examined, as follows :

5018. Chairman.'] YOLI are Governor of Worcester City Gaol, are you
not ?

I am.

501 9. How long have you held that office ?
Since August. 1819.

.5020. Were you employed in any prison capacity previous to that time ?
I was with my father about three years. He was Governor of Worcester Gaol
prior to myself.

5021. What is the average number of prisoners who are in Worcester City
Gaol every day ?

I have taken the average of five years ; in 1858 the average was 24 males
:in(I 10 females; in 1859, 22 males and 9 females; in 1860, 24 males and
8 females: in 1861, 22 males and / females, and in iS62, 31 males and
7 females.

5022. So that speaking roughly and generally the avernge number of pri-
soners per day for the last five or si.K years has been about 34 r

Yes.

.5023. What is the charge per head ?

Tt sometimes amounts to 31 /. or 32 /. ; last year it was 2i) /• and some odd
shillings per annum.

.1024. Has it rver been higher than that?

It has been 36 /. one year.

502,-,. Are manv of (he cells in the gaol certified by the inspector?

None.

.5026. Have )ou any separate cells r

We have 36 separate cells for males.

5027. How

7th May 1863.

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 45]

5027. How many women's cells ? ^^r If'- Griffiths.
We have nine women's cells ; but the women's cells are much larger than the

men's.

5028. What is the size of those cells ?
The men's sleeping cells are eight feet long, six feet three inches wide, and

nine feet high.

5029. flow are they ventilated ; is it by means of the window ?
Yes, there is a window, and in the side of the wall there is a grating through

which air comes from tlie top.

,5030. Has a prisoner the jiower of opening and shutting the window ?
Yes, he has the power of doing so.

5031. Do you find that the cells in the morning are at all close or not?
Yes, they are so.

5032. During the day how are the prisoners kept employed?

The convicted prisoners are employed on the treadwheel or the crank, some-
times a man is employed in making and mending shoes if he is a shoemaker, or
if he is a tailor we employ him ro make and mend for the prisoners.

5033. .Are all the convicted prisoners employed in that way?
Principally upon the treadwheel and the crank.

.5034. How many hours a day does a convicted prisoner work?

In the suii;mer time he gets up at six, and goes to work at half-past six, and
works till nine ; there is one hour allowed for breakfast till ten o'clock, and
thtn they work from ten to one, and from two to six, except on Wednesdays
and Fridays, when the chaplain has service.

5035. In winter when are the prisoners locked up ?
Soon after four in winter.

503(1. At nine o'clock you say they have breakfast ?
Yes.

5037. When do they have their dinner :
From one to two o'clock

5(i3S. Is there any food allowed after dinner ?

Yes, the pi isoner has his gruel and eight ounces of bread.

5039. When does he hare that r
Soon after four in the dead of the winter.

5040. So that in fact he has tln-ee meals, at nine o'clock, one o'clock, and four
o'clock }

Yes ; at six o'clock in summer ; it depends upon the time of year.

504 1 . After four he is locked up r
Very soon after tour when it becomes dark.

5042. Are the cells lighted ?
Not one of them.

5043. So that he is left by himself in the dark from four o'clock till when r
From about four in the evening till seven in the morning. This I consider is

the penal part of our prison.

5044. Has he the power of going to bed if he likes ?
Yes, if he likes.

5045. That would give him about 15 hours' sleep ?
Yes.

.'5046. How many warders have you in the gaol ?

I have a chief warder, a second warder, and a third warder, and a man to
cook and do jobbing about the prison ; four in all.

5047. What is their pay ?

The chief warder gets a guinea a week, the second warder 1 /., third warder
18s., and the cook 15 s.
(37. 16.) 3 L 2 5048. Lord

7th May 1863.

452 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Mr. W. Griffiths, 5048. Lord Stcivard.'] Have they finy rations oi- other allowance ?
The three warders have one suit of clothes each per annum.

5049. They have lodging in the prison, I presume ?
One or two of them sleep in the prison.

5050. Chairman.'] Do you give the prisoners any exercise in the ailing yard ?
Yes.

50.51. How many do you send out together at a time ?

We have but few ; there would be perhaps five or six in the yard exercising,
and a warder stands in front and sees them exercising.

5052. Do you place any warder in the airing yard to superintend them?

There is a warder there while they are exercising, but he is not there at all
times.

.50.53. Do you have a warder to superintend the men when they are on the
treadwheel ?

Yes, always.

,5054. Do you do any industi-ial work in the prison ?
Not generally.

5055. Is there any other occupation excepting the treadwheel and the crank ?

Yes, there is shoemaking, tailoring, washing, cleansing the prison, making
and mending ; the women make everything that is wanted for the men in the
way of clothing.

50.56. Are the prisoners ever employed in any considerable number in one
room by themselves at any work ?

Certainly not ; never more than two at a time.

5057. Are those two under any superintendence?
Occasionally, not legularly.

50.58. I suppose there is something to prevent any communication passing
between prisoner and prisoner r

With regard to the two who would be working by themselves, of course there
could not be.

.5050. Earl of Dudley.'] In the yard they are together, are they not?
Yes, prisoners before trial, with occasional supervision ; convicted male pri-
soners, when exercising, are always under the supervision of a warder.

5060. Lord Steward.] When the prisoners are at exercise can they have any
conversation ?

A warder stands in front of them.

5061 . Is it forbidden ; are they forbidden to have conversation ?
They are not allowed it.

5062. Earl of Dttdlry.] If they have not an officer with them the chances are
that they can and do do it ?

Y'es, there is no doubt of that.

5063. Chairman.] Have you sufficient sleeping room to seuarate all the pri-
soners at night ?

For the men we have, but not for the women.

5064. Have you never been obliged to put more than one man into a cell ?

If the cells are all full, or sonietimcs if I have more than 3G men (and some-
times I have 40), I put three or four down in the hospital, which is very seldom
wanted for sickness.

5065. If there were a sick man in the hospital what would you do then ?
AVe should not put them with a sick man : I hardly know where we should

put them in such a case ; we have a room that we might use, but we never
have had occasion to do so.

5066. Have you any outside walls surrounding the prison?
There is a boundary wall all round.

5067. How high is that boundary wall?
1 should think it is 10 or 1 8 feet.

506S. Is

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 453

5068. Is the prison in good repair ? Mr. W. Griffiths.

Yes.

5069. Have you ever had any attempts made at escape ?
Yes, I have lost two or three prisoners since it has been built.

5070. What do you attribute those escapes to r

There were many things to account for then. The first that I lost was when
I had two half prisons. Our old prison was part of a monastery, and before the
other part was finished we were obliged to put some prisoners in, and one man
got the mortar out before it was thoroughly set, and got away.

5071. Do you ever have any debtors in the prison ?
Yes.

5072. Have you a separate ward for debtors ?
Yes.

5073. Earl of Dudley.'] Are they not mixed up with the criminals r
Not at all.

5074. Do you keep the untried prisoners apart from the convicted ones ?

1 keep the men always apart, but we cannot always keep the women apart
for want of room. We have only nine sleeping cells for them. The women's
sleeping colls are 11 feet long, 7 feet 6 inches wide, and 10 feet 2 inches high.
They are larger than the men's.

507.5. So that you are obliged sometimes to put an untried woman, who
is awaiting her trial in the gaol, together with a convicted woman ?
I am obliged to do that sometimes for want of room.

507G. Do they sleep in the same room together ?
Yes, in that case they do.

.5077. Do you separate the misdemeanants from the felons ?
Yes, we do.

5078. How many hours a day does the treadwheel work ?

At this time of year it works from half-past six till nine, from ten till one,
and from two till six.

5079. As a general rule, have you the treadwheel always in operation during
the day ?

Yes, as a general rule.

5080. Has it ever happened that from want of warders, or from any other
reason, the treadwheel has not been in operation ?

Never from want of warders. It has not been in operation sometimes for
want of prisoners.

50?^ I . Has it ever happened that there have been no prisoners in the gaol ?
Not in my day.

50S2. Earl of Dudley.'] What is the number now r
When I came away there were 36 in all.

.5083. How many men r

Twenty-six men, seven women, and three debtors.

5084. Lord Wodehouse.'] What is the smallest number with which you can
work the treadwheel ?

Four ; and if there are three good-sized men, three can do it.

.50S5. Earl of Dudley.] How many can you put on ?

If very closely packed, 18. There are three compartments, holding six
prisoners each, but that is close.

5080. The six can talk to each other, can they not r

Yes, but if they do so the officer reports them and they get punished.

.50S7. Lord Wodehouse.'] For how long at a time do they work upon the
treadwheel without stopping?

Ten minutes, and five minutes rest.

(37. 16.) 3 L 3 5088. How

7 th May 1863.

454 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Mr. W. Griffiths. 50S8. How maii}^ Steps do tliey make in the ten minutes ?
About 48 steps a minute.

7th May 1863.

5089. Earl of Diidley.'] Have you the power of regulating it r

Ko, we have not, but we have a fly-wheel which the balls regulate.

5090. Chairnian.'] Have you a chaplain r
Yes.

5091. ^\'hat is his salary ?
£. 75 a year.

5092. Have you a surgeon r
Yis.

,5093. How often does the chaplain attend every week r
• Twice on Sundays, and a Wednesday and Friday service, and he goes round

to talk to the prisoners at other times, principally on Saturdays ; he comes there
on purpose on Saturdays.

5094. Have you anything like a service room or a school-room ?
Nothing of the sort.

.5095. Do }0u give the prisoners any instruction ?

No, we do not give them an}- instruction : the chaplain does sometimes.

5096. At what times does the chaplain give instruction r

Wednesdays and Fridays, after service, also on Saturdays he devotes two or
three hours each morning.

5097. Is the instruction given in the separate cells ?
i\o, in the chapel, or in the wards.

5098. Do you consider that the general system of the gaol is a satisfactory
one in its arrangements ?

I cannot say that it is.

5099. Do you know whether the matter has ever formed the subject of com-
plaint or representation in any of the inspector's reports ?

Yes, they have reported several times.

5 1 00. Earl of Dudley.'] Has anything been done in consequence ?

There has been some little alteration, but nothing except with respect to the
bottom cells in the wards ; they were at one time of stone, and rather damp,
and the inspectors recommended all the bottom cells to be boarded, which was
done.

.5101. Chairman.] Have the inspectors ever reported against the general
arrangements in the prison ?
J think they have.

5102. Has the matter ever formed the subject of consideration on the part of
the visiting justices ?

Yes ; but our city has been laying out 70,000 I. or 80,000 /. in water and
sewerage ; probably they are very careful about spending any money.

,5)03. The municipal improvements appear to have rather interfered with the
arrangements of the prison ?
I think ver}' likely that is so.

5104. Lord Sten-ard.] Have you, yourself, ever made any suggestion for the
improvement of the gaol itself, or with regard to discipline ?

I have sometimes, but I am obliged to be very careful about the finance
department, or else 1 should get into trouble with the town council.

5105. Lord ffodehouse.] How often do the visiting magistrates visit the gaol r
Every fortnight.

x 5106. Earl of Ditdlcy.] How is your prison bounded; is there a wall all

round it ?

\ ' 5107. You

SELECT COMMITTEE OX TRISOX DISCIPLINE- 455

5 1 07. You told US, (lid you not, that it is 18 feet high r Mr. W. Griffiths.
Yes, about that. — -

7th May 1863,

5108. Is there a road on each side, or on how many sides of the prison ?

No ; there is some building which comes right up to it ; there is no road round

the prison.

5109. Is it not bounded on two sides by a street?
Yes, on two sides.

5110 On the other side of the strieet are there houses ?
Yes.

5111. Do the top windows of the houses look over into the gaol ?
There are some which do.

5112. Can the prisoners see the people in the top rooms, and can the people •
in the top rooms see them I

Yes.

5113. Can they make signs to one another r
Yes, they have done so.

5114. And throw things over to one another?
Yes, many times that has happened.

5115. Do you find that there are constant attempts to communicate with the
people outside r

There are constant attempts when the}' have an opportunity of doing so.

5116. Do you consider that the supervision which you have in Worcester
gaol, is sufficient to enable you to carry on the discipline effectually r

Not strictly.

5117. How often does the Inspector come down?
Once a year.

5118. Lord Wodehousc.'] Has he ever calltd attention to the construction of
the gaol, and to the power which exists of people communicating from the out-
side with the prisoners ?

Ye.«, many times.

5119. And has no attention whatever been paid by the visiting n.agistrates
to the report of the Inspector ?

The visiting magistrates have no power to lay out money, they must go to the
Town Council for it.

5120. Have the visiting magistrates ever brought any of those complaints of
the Inspector before the Town Council, with a view to money being laid out?

I think not.

5 1 2 i . Lord St€lvard.^^ How many officers sleep on the premises ?
The cook, and one other officer.

5122. If there should be an outbreak in the night, what means would there
be of suppressing it ?

'1 here are two officers, myseif and the watchman, who goes round at night.

5 1 23. Then there would be four officers on the premises at night ?
\es.

.51 24. Earl of Dud/ejj.] What number are nctually resident in the prison
during the nis;ht ?

There are myself, one of the v^arders, the co,.k, and the watchman; the
latter goes round every quarter of an hour : there are the head warder, tlie
next warder, the third warder, and the cook ; that is. four officers by da}' ; at
nine o'clock at night two of them go away, and there are two left in "the pri^^n
besides myself, and the watchn an all night, so that there are four on the
premises.

51 ^5- Clidirmoii.] Is not the county gaol situated in the town of Worcester ?
Yes, it is.

(37.1c.) 3 L 4 jV2'}. Do

456 MINUTES OF F.YIDEXCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Mr. W. Criffiths •■'•1 26. Do you know what is the average number of prisoners m that gaol ?

— — ■ I cannot speak accurately, but I think it is about 230 or 240.

7ili May 1863. . , ,_ t v 1 1 ^"
.ji -'7. Is it a large gaol .-

Yes.

51 cS. Are you aware that there is an iVct of Parliament which allows you to
contract for prisoners^ and to send them from the borough gaol to the county

gaol :-

Yes.

5129. Have you ever taken advantage of that Act ?

No. .

5 1 30. Do not you think that it might be adrantageous perhaps sometimes to
take advantage of it r
• In fact we are short "of money ; that is the real state of the case in our town ;

it is the finance question that keeps us quiet.

.5131. Loixl Steward] Do you know what is the comparative expense of
keeping prisonei's in the two gaols ?

There is very little difference in the two gaols as to the expense.

5132. Is the dietary the same in both r
Yes ; it is the Government dietary.

5133. Chairman.] Is the food cooked within your prison?
Yes.

.5134. Do you suppose that there would be any material gain effected, either
in economy or efficiency, by contracting with the county ?

That depends upon what the county would do, because if our prison were to
be done awa)- with entirely, we should be at the mercy of the county to charge
us what they liked for the rent of the cells.

5135. Earl of Ducie.] Do you know what the practice is in the City of
Gloucester ?

The Gloucester City prison is given up ; they all go to the county ; they
had only one ward in the City prison.

5136. Do you know what they pav for the prisoners in the County Gaol ?

No.

5137. Lord Wodthousc] How are the women employed in your gaol?
They are employed in making and mending, and washing.

5138. Have you a matron r
Yes.

5139. What do you pay her?

£. 30 a year ; that is the only female officer we have.

5140. Has she no help ?

My wife is the matron, and my servant assists my wife, for which she is paid
nothing.

5141. She has no female warder, has she ?
None at all.

5142. If she has the whole of the nine cells full, is she supposed to manage
the wiiole of those women ?

Yes, with her servant.

5143. If you choose you might do without a servant ; they have no right to
the services of that servant ':

Certainly not.

.5144- But the matron is allowed no woman help ?

No help at all ; some of the Tovvn Council consider the expense of the matron
to be too much.

.';i4.j. CIniirinan.] Are you aware whether any motion has ever been brought
before tlic Town Council for alterations to be made in the prison ?
No, I do not believe there ever has.

5146. Lord

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE.. 457

.'',14^. Lord Steward.] What is your own salary ? , Mr. W. Griffiths.

£. 200 a year and a house, with washing, coals and light- Perhaps the Com-

mittee would allow me to say, that I am the only governor in England who was " ^ '^'
a governor in the time of George the Third. When I first re'taember the prison,
we had two or three large rooms, and we turned all the men into these rooms
without washing or anything in the world ; they were allowed 1 \ pounds of
bread per day and water, but there was not even a ])iece of soap allowed at
first. I remember the coiaaty gaol having only one officer besides the governor
in my day, and they had but two when they went to the new gaol, except the
watchman. ,

5147. Earl of i5?«//t7y.] You say that all the men were together; were the
women mi.\ed u|j with them ?

They were quite separate, but there was oidy one sitting-room and one sleep-
ing-room for the women ; and if a woman was confined she was confined in the
midst of all the rest, in a great lumbering room. But the women were parted
from the men more tlian they are now ; it was impossible for them to get near
to the men ; they had no communication with them in any way.

.5 148. Then it would appear that the system has fallen off a little, so far as the
women are concerned, since the timu of George the 1 bird ?

I do not know about that ; I am speaking of the prison arrangements.

51 49. Lord JVodehouse.'] Can the women communicate with the men now ?
Sometimes they will.

51,50. Earl oi Dudley.] Their wards are quite close together, are they?
Yes ; I find sometimes a little scrap torn out of the Prayer Book, which is written
upon for some man.

5151. That is done in the chapel ?

No, 1 think it more likely to be done in their wards and cells.

51.52. And can they communicate between the women's ward and the men's
ward i"

They cannot see each other.

5153. Can they throw a paper over r
Yes.

5154. Chairman.'] Are the walls which divide the two yards open upon the
top?

They are quite separate ; they cannot see each other, but they can throw
anything over. Our building is like a semicii'cle, and if you placed your ear
ver}' near to the wall, you could hear talking.

5155. Lord Steward.] Are there many re-committals to your gaol ?
Not more than the average anywhere else.

5156. Is the average greater or less than it was some years ago ?

1 almost think it is less the last year or two. I make out an account of them,
which I send every year to the Government.

5157. Earl of Diidleij.] The Committee very distinctly understand from your
e-vidence, that there has been an unfavourable repoi-t made more than once,
and that report has not been taken into consideration, or been acted upon ?

That is very true.

5158. Lord Steward.] Do you think that without a large increase of expen-
diture, an improvement in the discipline of the prison could be effected?

Not in the prison that we have. Our prison was built a few years before
they built the Model Prison.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

Mr. GEORGE JULYAN is called in, and examined as follows : Mr.G.Julyan

3S*. Chairman.] YOU are Governor of Falmouth Gaol, are you not ? ~~

im.

(37. 10.) 3M 5-50. It

458 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

iVr. G. Julyan. 51,59- ^t is a borough gaol, is it not?
Yes.

7th May 1863.

5160. Since when have you filled the apppointment of gaoler r
Upwards of 27 years.

5161. Had you any previous experience in prison matters before that
appointment ?

No.

51 02. What is the average daily number of prisoners who are in confinement
in your gaol ?

There are about /O in the year ; and, speaking from recollection, I should say
the average was about eight to ten, not moi-e.

5i()3. Has it frequently sunk a good deal below that number ?
Recently it has.

5 164. Within the last few years how lias it been r
The average has sunk down to about seven.

5 1 6'j. Have you ever had the gaol entirely cleared ?

Yes.

5166. And have you had as few as one or two prisoners at a time ?
Yes. I have only two now at this present time, both men.

5167. Are both men and women prisoners confined in your gaol ?
There are at times.

5168. Is there a separate part of the prison which is allotted for the women ?
Tliere is a separating wall between the two parts of the prison.

5169. Are the women under the same roof as the men?
Y'es, they are under the same roof.

51 70. Is the women's ward on the ground-floor or upstairs ?
On the ground-floor.

5171. Consequently, there is not a double staircase ?
No, not a double staircase.

5172. Have the men and the women prisoners any opportunity of communi-
cating with each other during the day ?

Noj unless they were to call aloud ; which would be rather dangerous, for
fear they would be heard.

5173. What is the thickness of the wall ?
A])out two feet.

.51 74. Do any of the windows open near upon each other ?
None

5 1 75. In what state of repair is the gaol ?

It is in pretty good repair it; was built in 1831.

.5 1 76. Has it been altered since then ?
It has been improved.

5177. Are there any cells for separate confinement which have been certified
by the inspector ?

None.

5178. Do the prisoners sleep in separate compartments?

Sometimes, and sometimes th( re are three in association ; we have been so
crowdcil that they have slept four or five in the same cell, which has been
considered very inconvenient.

5179. What number of separate compartments for sleeping purposes have
you at your disposal ?

Nine altogether.

5180. Does that include both the female and male side?
Yes; it includes both males and females.

5181. What

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 459

5181. What is the largest number of prisoners you have ever had at cue Mr. G. Julyari.
time in the prison ? , ,7 ^r

I think about 27 ; from that to 30. ^ ^^ '^-

5182. What is the size of those compartments?

They are not all of one size; there are five that are only about 12 feet
by 8 feet, as near as I can recollect.

5183. What is the smallest of these compartments?

Those are the smallest ; the largest are about 16 to 18 feet long, and 14 feet
wide.

5184. On occasions when the prison has been full, you iiave been obliged,
you say, to put into cells of those dimensions as many as three or four prisoners ?

Yes.

51 85. What accommodation is there within those cells for sleeping ?
Hammocks, like sailors use.

5186. On those occasions that you have referred to, did you shng four
hammocks in one cell ^

Yes.

5187. Did you ever put two prisoners in the same bed together ?

Yes, we have done it ; but it is not generally done ; we avoid it if possible.
There have been two prisoners put into one cell at a time when the prison has
been overcrowded.

5188. Lord Steward.'] How many of those nine cells are applicable to women,
and how many to men ?

There are two applicable to women, the remaining seven to men.

5189. Lord IFodehouse.] What is the largest number of women you have
ever had at one time in the prison ?

1 think about five, as near as 1 can recollect ; not more than five.

5190. Lord Stetcard.] Whatever number of male prisoners you might have,
you would only have seven cells or compartments available for their reception ?

No more than that, certainly ; when I say nine, that is the whole number of
cells in the prison.

5191. From that number two must be deducted for the women ?
Yes.

5192. Therefore, if you had a mutiny among the sailors in the various ships
in the harbour, and a large number of male prisoners were sent in from any
circumstance of that sort, you would only have seven rooms available for them ?

Just so ; we could not provide for them.

5193. Chairman.'] I observe that in the Inspector's Report of J861, it is
stated that he found that the men were placed in tlie women's wards, and the
women were placed in the men's wards ; do you remember that circumstance r

I do not know what he can mean by that ; it must be a mistake in Mr. Perry's
report ; I do not think that ever was the case.

5194. Mr. Perry iu his Report of 1861 says, " There were onlv two men and
three women in confinement at the time of my last inspection ; the men being
located in the women's division, and the woman in that destined for men ; " do
you remember that circumstance ?

Perhaps it might have been so on that occasion, for on one side of the prison
there could be a communication between the prisoners and the persons living
in tlie house adjoining the gaol, and most hkely I removed the women to
prevent this communication.

5 1 9.5. Do those windows overlook the prison windows ?
Yes, they do.

.5196. Are they sufficiently near to admit of communication passing?
They could pass in things to them with a rope, or tlirow them down ; I have
myself found a box of matches in the yard that had bcnni passed over.

5197. Would not the same objection apply to putting the men in those
(37- 16.) 3 M 2 wards ;

460 MINUTES OF EVIDEXCE TAKEN' BEFORE THE

Mr. G. Julijan. wards ; might not communication be made to them just as well as to the

women ?

7th May 1 863. [ ^^ ^^^^ recollect at this momi nt what it could have been for, but it must have

been for some pur[jose of that kind.

5 1 98. When the men were placed in tlie women's wards, might not commu-
nication be made to them, so far as words and conveyance of articles are con-
cerned, as to the women ?

Just so, but there is a difference in the disposition of prisoners. Your Lord-
ship is aware that some prisoners are very badly behaved, and others will
behave remarkably well ; we put the well-behaved prisoners in the part of the
prison which is most opea to communication with persons in the next house.

5 1 99. Are the Committee to understand that, inasmuch as there are two cells
set apart for women and seven for men, on one occasion ihe men were placed in
the women's department and the women were transferred to the men's, and that
the occupants of these two female wards were mixed up in the cells which are
allotted to the men ?

Yes ; but the men were nut near them at the time.

.5200. But they were brought within the wall of partition, and into the same
part of the gaol ?

Perhaps I have not made myself sufficiently understood. I'here is a party-
wall between them ; tliere are fonr airing-yards, and the males' yards are on
one side of that wall and the women's on the other. There is a dvvelling-
hou-e adjoining the female part of the prison from which they can communi-
cate with the ])risoners ; and in consequence of something that I discovered
between the female prisoners and the persons living in the ne.xt house, 1 made
this alteration, and removed them.

,5201. On both sides of this partition-wall I presume there are passages in
the department set aside for the men, and passages also set aside for the
women r

Just so..

.5202. And consequently you had to bring the women through the passages,
where at the same time you might have been taking some of the male pri-
soners ?

Yes, to lock them up.

')-20T,. And, consequently, communications might very easily have passed at
such a time ?

V\'e pass by the men's cells on the way to the females'.

5204. What is the labour enforced in your gaol ?

We formerly conijielled them to break stones for macadamizing the roads
(but we found that was a dangerous work, for they attempted escape by breaking
the iron bars), and, on some occasions, they pick oakum for ship purposes.

.5-0,). Have you no t)'eadwheel?
No, we never had.

.'•)20f3 Nor a crank?
No.

5207. Was the sole occupation of the prisoners picking oakum ?

Yes, that and doing the work of the gaol, the painting, and lime-washing,
and so forth.

5208. Does it alwa}s happen that you have a sufficient amount of oakum to
pick ?

No.

.5J09. When there is not that amount of oakum, what are the prisoners
employed upon r

'J'hey have no occupation any more than painting and doing the ordinary
work of the prison.

S2\o. Therefore, it very frequently happens that the prisoners are in a state
of complete idleness ?
That has been the case.

.521 1. Lord

SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 461

5211. Lord Steward. ~] Though thty are senti-nced to hard labour? Mt.G. Julumt.
Just so.

5J12. Chairman.'] On those occasions are they confined in those separate
sleeping compartments, or in the day-room ?

They are in sejjarate apartments, and are allowed to go into the airing-yards
at a certain time in the day, and then are locked up again.

521 ■',. Hovv many hours are they in the airing-yards ?
Perhaps two or three hours per day.

5214. Earl of Diidk'i/.^ Are they associating all together in one yard ?
No, there are four yards.

521.5. Supposing there are ei<iht or ten men in the prison, four or five would
be in each yard at the same time ?
Yes.

5216. And do they associate together there without the inspection of an
officer ?

Yes, that is so,

5217. Lord fVodehousc] Is no officer present with the prisoners whilst they
are in the airing-yard ?

No, they are overlooked ; because the windows of the officers' apartments are
facing the airing-yards, so that we can command the prisoners.

52 1 8. But there is no officer stationed to inspect the prisoners durin"- the
time that they are in the airing-yard ?

No.

52 1 Q. Lord Stexcard.] Conversation, I presume, is not forbidden?
No.-

5220. Chn/i-mai).] Does not it amount to this, that when you have not
sufficient oakum on which to employ the i^risoners, you turn them into the
airing-yards ?

They are turned into the yards as long as we can overlook them ; but the
walls are not sufficiently high to prevent their escape, so that I cannot suifer
them to be long there without some one being present.

5221. If you should have occasion to go away, and you turned the key on
them, leaving them in the yard, what security have you that they will not escape
whilst you are absent ?

They could not escape without my seeing them.

5222. Whenever you are absent, is there somebody on the watch r

I do not allow them to remain in the yard while I am absent ; I lock
them up.

5223. How many warders have you in the prison f
Only one.

5224. Does he live there day and night r

■^"es, he lives there. 1 should tell the Committee that the magistrates, only
some few years since, appointed a warder, but the town council refused to confirm
the order of the justices ; and as the justices have no power to raise the money,
they have never paid him.

5225. How long did he fill the office of warder ?
I suppose more than 12. months.

5.52(3. And did he receive no remuneration for it ?
He has got none as yet.

5227. Is he still employed as warder ?
He considers that he is.

5228. Earl of Dudley.'] Does he still do the duty in hope of being paid ?
Yes ; he is my own son.

5229. Cliairmaii.'\ At this moment, under whose charge is the prison left?
Under his charge.

5230. Earl of Dudlai.] He being an unpaid officer?
Yes.

(37. 16.) 3m3 5231. C/iair/«a?i.]

7tli May 1863.

462 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Mr. G.JuIyan. 5231. Chairman.] Is it not a matter of necessity for Inm at times to go out

of the liouse ?

7th May 1863. Ygg^ sometimes he must do so.

5232. And during that time what happens at the prison ?

Sometimes there is no one present, and then he locks them inside the bars.
I should state that part of my duty is to superintend the police ; I am the
superintendent of the police of the borough.

5233. Then do not your duties very frequently take you away from the
•prison ?

Yes, most assuredly.

5'yi34. Is it not a matter of common sense that the prisoners must be left
under the charge of some other persons if you are called away for other
duties for two or three or four hours ?

Yes.

•-,'235. Can you in any way hold yourself responsible for the safe custody of
those prisoners if you have nobody as your delegate in whose charge to leave

them ?

Certainly not ; I would not trust them a moment unless they were locked in

safely.

523('). But the town council, as 1 understand you, have refused to pay any

such officer I

Yes there seems to be some misunderstanding between the town council
and the magistrates ; the magistrates want to improve the prison or build a
new one ; the town council will not vote the money.

5237. Lord Woikhouse.'] There is therefore no paid warder at all?

No.

5-238. And this so-called warder is merely your own son, whom you employ
in your absence to take care of the prison ?

Yes, just so : what will be the result we do not know yet ; he was properly
appointed by the magistrates.

5239. Cliainnan.] Has the matter ever been brought to the notice of the
town council that he is discharging the duty without pay ?

Yes, repeatedly, by the mayor, who is one of the visiting justices.

5240. What has their answer been ?

Thev do not seem to confirm the appointment, they do not pay him.

5241. Lord Steward.] If it so happened that your son was engaged in any
other employment, or left you for any reason, you would be left without any
assistant whatever in the prison ?

Just so.

5242. And probably under those circumstances you could not obtain one?
Just so, I have no power.

.'-,243. Lord Wodehouse.] Who attends to the female prisoners?

My wife, who was appointed matron when I was appointed governor.

5244. Does she receive any salary ?

Yes, a small remuneration of about 5 I , or something of that sort.

,524,'-,. Earl of Dudleij] What do you receive together?
About 60 /., with house-rent and coals.

.^246. What should be the pay of your son as your warder ?
He ought not to have less than 50 I.

^247. Earl Cathcart.] Is your son a police officer as well ?
No, he is not.

5-:?48. Chairman.] Do }ou consider that the present arrangement is in any
degree satisfactory ?

1 think not.

5249. Do you feel that you are in any way answerable for the security of the
prisoners under such an arrangement ?

I think that we cannot possibly conform to the Gaol Act under the existing

state of the prison.

* ,5250. In

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 463

5250. In one of the recent reports of the Inspector, it is stated that there Mr. G. Juli/nn.

was no •watercloset in the women's division of the prison, the cells devoted to

prisoners of that class being in a very offensive condition ; was that the case '^* ^^^ '^^^'
in 1859 ?

Yes ; I think waterclosets have been erected since that date.

5251. The Inspector goes on to say that, " As all private remonstrance upon
the defects of this prison is unavailing, there is no other alternative ; that the
town council are deaf to every suggestion of improvement in this particular, is
shown by the following among other proofs of a similar nature : on the 14th
July 185G, the mayor and recorder of the borough made the following formal
recommendation to the town council, ' We are decidedly of opinion that a
watercloset for the women should be erected wdthout delay ;' a proposition
founded upon this recommendation was negatived by the town council." Are
you aware whether that is a correct statement of the fact ?

I have no doubt about it ; I know that it is so.

.'5252. Has any step been taken since then to remedy it?
Yes, two waterclosets have been erected.

52.53. Have the visiting justices ever expressed any opinion that it was a
satisfactory arrangement that you, as superintendent of police, should also be
gaoler ?

I think there was something said about that between the magistrates and
the inspector, but I do not recollect what reply the magistrates made.

5254. Lord Wodehouse.] What time do 3-ou lock the prisoners up at night
for bed?

That depends upon the time of year ; in the winter season about between four
and five o'clock, and they remain there till about seven in the morning ; and in
summer they are locked up at eight o'clock, and unlocked at six in the morning.

525,5. Are any of the cells lighted at night ?
None.

5256. Are any of them warmed ?
None.

5257. In the case of very cold weather, do you find any inconvenience from
the cells not being warmed ?

They are generally then removed in association into large cells, where there
is a fireplace.

5258. Is any instruction given to the prisoners ?

No ; the only person who visits them to give them instruction is an officer
whom they call a town missionary ; the rector and some members of the Society
of Friends (Quakers) occasionally visit them, and afford them religious instruc-
tion.

5259. Earl of Z)i<t?Zez/.] Have you no chaplain ?
We have no regularly appointed chaplain.

5260. Chairman.'] Are you aware, that under the Gaol Act of the 2d and
3d of Victoria, it is obligatory upon every gaol that a chaplain should be
appointed to it ?

I am aware of that, and I was present and heard the Inspector of Prisons
point out the section to the magistrates.

5261. Consequently your gaol arrangements are at this moment in direct
opposition to the clauses of that Act ?

Yes ; as I have said, it is not possible that we can conform with the Gaol Act
with the present gaol.

5262. Has that fact also been brought to the knowledge of the town council ?
Yes.

5263. What has been the answer which they have made ?

I do not recollect ; but the recommendation of the justices, or the Inspector
of Prisons, has never been acted upon.

5264. Have you any surgeon attached to the gaol ?
Yes ; there is one appointed every year, at a salary.

(37- 16.) 3 M 4 5265. What

464 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

3Ir. G. Julyan. 5265. What is his Salary ?

I think it i? 5 /. a year, and he has to provide medicines out of that.

7tli May 1863. 5266. How often does that inchide a visit from him ?

Whenever there is a prisoner ill he is sent for, and he frequently calls in
passing, and comes into the prison to know if there are any prisoners there, and
if there are he sees them.

5267. Lord Stacard.'] Would he be required to perform any operation for
that sum, or would there be an extra payment for an operation ?

No extra payment ; I have known one surgeon to have a birth there ; a
woman was confined in the prison, and he attended her, and she was under his
care daily, 1 should think, for a mouth, and all he got was his 5 /. a year.

5268. Lord fVodthouscI Is your dietary the dietary prescribed by the
Government ?

Yes, as nearly as possible.

5269. Chairman.'] Do you cook the food within the prison ?
Yes, it is all cooked within the prison.

.5270. Lord Steward.] Is not that diet calculated upon the presumption that
the prisoners are doing a certain amount of hard labour, whereas in your gaol
there appears to be no employment of any kind ?

The sentences are generally short, but in giving sentence the magistrates now,
when they find that the town council will not employ a prisoner, send a great
many prisoners to the county gaol ; and the town council have now to pay for
them a long bill of about 300/., which the magistrates have incurred in con-
sequence of their not complying with their recommendations.

5271. Is it your opinion that the Government dietary is not too high for
persons leading a life of inactivity ?

No ; I think for a short term of imprisonment, for 1 4 days for instance, the
Government dietai-y is rather sharp,

5272. You mean whilst they are doing no hard labour?
Yes, the lowest scale is very low indeed.

5273. Chairman.] In one of your previous answers you stated, that for
offences committed within the boundary of the borough, the magistrates are in
the habit of committing prisoners not to the borough gaol, but to the county
gaol. Will you be good enough to explain how that happens r

It happens in this way : The magistrates do not consider that the gaol is
adequate to the wants of the borough, and instead of conunitting the borough
prisoners to their own gaol, they commit them to the county gaol.

.5274. Under what powers do they proceed ?

They say tliat they have the power under the charter of the borough, and
that nothing shall take their power from them of committing a prisoner to the
county gaol at Bodmin. They have communicated upon the subject with
the county magistrates, and have sent their prisoners to tlie county prison.

.5275. Has that practice been acquiesced in by the town council?
Yes ; and they have been obliged to pay part of the money.

5276. Have they disputed the right of the magistrates so to commit ?
'ihey do not interfere at all with it.

5277. Lord Jl'odchoasc] Have, in fact, the town council of Falmouth paid
'the expense of the prisoners who have been couDuitted to Bodmin Gaol r

They have.

5278. Chairman.'] Since then has the number of prisoners within the gaol
fallen off considerably ?

Yes, considerably.

J279. Are there fewer altogether committed within the borough?

There is very little difference in tliat respect ; but a great many have been
committed to the county gaol since this altercation between the magistrates and
the town council.

5280. Earl of Dudley.] As I understand you, the borough justices are very
much opjjosed to the town council with ri'gard to the wants of tlie gaol ?

Yes ; I believe all the justices, even including the mayor, are opijosed to the
town council on that point.

528i. Lord

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 465

5281. Lord Wodehouse.'] Has it been suggested that the gaol at Falmouth Mr. G^Jdyan.
should be disused, and that the prisoners should be sent to the Bodmin gaol ^^^ ^^^ ^gg^^
under a contract with the county r

The councd are of opinion that the whole of the prisoners should be sent to
the county gaol ; and instead of paying what the county charge the borough,
namely, 1 s. 9 d. a day, the town council think that the borough should only
pay in proportion to the other parishes, and be assessed to the gaol at the same
rate. But the county say, we will not take your prisoners unless you pay us
\ s. 9 d. ; we formerly paid 1 s. ; but within the last six months they have
increased the sum to 1 .s. 9 ^. a day.

52.S2. Are the Committee to understand you to state that the town council
would have no objection to sending the prisoners to Bodmin gaol under a con-
tract with the county, if they could agree as to the terms 1

They have no objection if they could agree as to the terms ; but the justices of
the county say that they will not take their prisoners for less than 1 ^. 9 d. a day.

5283. What do the pi'isoners cost in Falmouth gaol ?

Nothing like that ; 22 /. 1 .?. 9 d. is the annual cost of a prisoner in Falmouth,
and that includes my salary as superintendent of police as well ; and the
coimcil has to pay the cost of conveying the prisoners from Falmouth, 35 miles,
to the county gaol.

.5284. Chairman.'] Will you read from that volume of Judicial Statistics,
which is before you, what the cost per head of a prisoner is in the borough gaol
of F.ilmouth, and in the county gaol of Bodmin r

The total in the county gaol is 30/. 7 s. 8 d., and in the borough gaol it is
22 /. 1 s. 9 d.

528.5. Is it not therefore the fact that the reluctance to contract with the
county prison arises from the greater expense which the town council would
incur ?

Yes.

5286. And the only point in which the two parties are at issue is one of
terms ?

Yes.

5287. Can you state to the Committee in what particulars it is that the cost
of the county gaol at Bodmin is in excess of the borough gaol of Falmouth ?

The establishment charges are greater.

5288. What do you designate as the estabhshment charges?
The salaries of oBicers.

5289. Consequently the town council simply keep down the expenses of
their prison by allowing you no warder ?

Just so.

5290. If they gave you another warder, as you consider to be necessary lor
securing the prisoners, or two warders, as the case might be, that would make
a material difference, would it not, in bringing the two prisons' charges to an
equality ?

It wovdd.

5291. The Committee would wish to understand distinctly whether it has
been the ordinary practice, under any circumstances, to place more than one
prisoner in a single bed ?

It has been done I think, but very rarely, except when the prison is over-
crowded, then we have been obhged to do it.

5292. Has it been ever the case with the male prisoners ?
It is of very rare occurrence, they have separate hammocks.

5293. Has it not been the case more than once on the female side ?
Yes.

5294. Is not that frequently the case ?

Yes, two females have frequently slept in one bed.

5295. Do you attempt any soi't of classification as regards misdemeanants and
felons, and untried and convicted prisoners ?

At all times when the gaol will admit of it.

(37. 16.) 3 N 5296. Does

466 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

Mr.G.Julyan. 5296. Does it fi'equently happen that you are obUged to place untried pri-

" — ■ soners with convicted prisoners ?

'___^^_|_ ^' I have been obUged to do so on one or two occasions, that is to say, when the
prison is overcrowded.

5297. Do you place juvenile prisoners with men and women whom you have
known to have been previously convicted?

INot if it can possibly be avoided, but it has been done.

5298. Lord Wodeliouse.'] In your opinion would it not create inconvenience,
looking at tlie number of seamen who frequently are in the harbour of Falmouth,
if there was no gaol at Falmouth, and all the prisoners had to be sent to
Bodmin ?

It would increase the expense of conveyance materially.

5299. 'KbxV oi Dudlei/.l There must be a lock-up of some sort, must there
not?

Yes, there must be a lock-up ; we cannot do without it. It is my opinion
that the present gaol would be just sufficient for a lock-up. Perhaps the Com-
mittee will allow me to observe that the tovFU council have found that they
have come to a loss, and that the Ti-easur)^ has refused to pay them the amount
of Government allowance for prisoners convicted at assizes and sessions, and
sentenced to be ini]irisoned in the county gaol. It appears that the county has
not charged it to the Government, nor to the borough, and they have now
found by the bill returned from the county that it has not been charged to the
Treasury, and the borough lias not taken any notice of it, nor charged it to any
one, and therefore they are now called upon to pay for the maintenance of
those prisoners in the county gaol, and the Treasury refuse to repay them the
portion of it which the Government usually allows.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

WILLIAM AUGUSTUS GUY, Esquire, m.b., is again called in, and further

examined, as follows :

W. A. Guy, Esq., SjOO. Chairma}/'] YOU are anxious, are you not, to make some explanation
^•'^- or addition to the evidence with which you supplied us the other day?

I thought it might be advantageous to submit to the Committee a scheme
of dietary which I have prepared. But I would wish first of all to state the
reasons I have for submitting such a scheme to the Committee. Tiie dietary
is drawn out upon the supposition, in the first place, that the dietaries of
our prisons ought to promote the first object of imprisonment, the punish-
ment of the criminal, by being unattractive without being positively repulsive.
Then I would lay it down as a principle, that these dietaries should be
such as to pi'cserve the health of the prisoner and his capacity for labour,
and protect him from such diseases as scurvy, dysentery and scrofula ; but
that it is unreasonable to expect that they should maintain him in the
highest possible state of health and vigour. Thirdly, that in arranging these
dietaries, it shovdd always be borne in mind that the prisoner is being main-
tained at the cost of those very persons who, in their own persons or property,
or in the persona or property of those more or less closely connecteil with them,
have already sustained injuries more or less severe. For tliis reason, economy
should be studied in the arrangement of our dietaries, and otlier things being equal,
the cheaper food should always have the preference over the dearer. 4th. Tliat
inasmuch as the shorter sentences do not subject the prisoner to that continuous
loss of liberty, monotony of life, and tedious separation from relations and friends,
which constitute the essence of punishment under the longer sentences, it is
expedient to make the dietary under these shorter sentences so scant)^ and
uninviting, as to be in itself a punishment. 5th. That inasmuch as prisoners
sentenced for longer ])eriods could not be safely submitted to a diet which
would prove a punishment to those whose sentences are short, inasmuc^h also
as they are punished through prolonged detention, monotony, and separation
from kindred and friends, it is less necessary that their diet should be of a
penal character. Gth. But that, in order to obviate, as much as possible the
very obvious objection that the short sentences as at present arranged, entail
the worst, and the long sentences the best diet, it is expedient to construct a
scale of successive diets, through which each prisoner should be made tjo pass

till

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 467

till his sentence expires, 7th. That in framing the successive dietaries, it is W. A. Guy, Esq.,
expedient to be guided by some existing dietary or dietaries, which have been '"•^-

long in use among large bodies of men ; and that the dietaries in force among .^th May i8f)3.

mihtary prisoners may^with an addition presently to be mentioned, be safely and

advantageously adopted for this purpose. Then I would further submit one or
two propositions affecting the dietaries, both for short and long periods of im-
prisonment, which propositions may be safely stated to be the result of experi-
ence. The first is this : that there is no valid objection on the score of health
to a diet of bread and water, in the case of all prisoners whose sentences do not
exceed one week, nor for the period of one week at the commencement of thek-
imprisonment, in the case of criminals whose sentences exceed one week.

5301. Earl of Dvdky.] That carries out what you before proposed, that
the dietary of every prisoner should be progressive from the lowest to the
highest scale ?

Yes ; that is in accordance with the view I have abeady expressed to your
Lordships.

5302. Chainnan.'] Will you proceed with your suggestions?

Secondly, That there is also no vaHd objection, whether in the case of short
or of long sentences, to dietaries from which the element of meat is altogether
excluded. The next is. That in adjusting the respective dietaries of male and
female prisoners, the proportion of food should be made to approximate
to the numbers six and five, which figures represent the proportionate
average weights of adult males and adult females respectively ; or assuming
the same quantities or the liquid elements of the several dietaries to be
given to men and women, the proportion of the sohd elements of the
dietaries to be as the numbers four and three. For example, if a man is
allowed 16 ounces of bread per diem, a woman should be allowed 12 ounces.
I next propose, that lads under seventeen shovdd rank with adult women, as
is the case with existing dietaries. Then I propose, that for the sake of sim-
plicity and uniformity, it is desirable to fix the quantity of bread, in the case of
male prisoners, in all the diets at 1 pound per diem, and the quantity of potatoes
at either half a pound or one i-ound per diem, according to tlie length of time
the prisoner has been in confinement ; and that, if on full experience of tlie
dietaries now suggested, a more liberal diet should be deemed necessary, the
additions shoukrbe made in elements of the diet other than bread and potatoes.
Then I venture to suggest that the medical officers of our prisons should be
instructed to use the greatest caution in altering the diets in individual cases,
refusing to concede any change at the mere request of the prisoners themselves,
and requiring, as their justification for so doing, the presence of actual disease,
or distinct marks of the presence of scurvy, or the growth of scrofulou- swell-
ings, or a considei'able and progressive loss of weight ; and that no change
of dietaries should take place except after a written report of the medical
officer, in which distinct reasons should be assigned for the change proposed ;
such report to be submitted to the visiting justices for their consideration and
approval. These seem to me to be the principles on which it is possible to
frame a dietary.

5303. Will you be good enough now to read to the Committee the dietary
which has been constructed on tiiese principles ?

I would suggest that convicted prisoners imprisoned for a term not exceeding
seven days, should be put upon one pound of bread per diem during that period,
and an unlimited quantity of water.

5304. By the reduction of the gruel, you reduce that first class below the
present scale ?

Yes, below the present scale, which allows two pints of gruel per diem. Then,
for periods exceeding seven days, and not exceeding 21 days, or to speak more
correctly, according to the views which I have submitted to the Committee,
after seven days and up to 21 days, one pound of bread as before, and half a
pound of potatoes. Then in the case of prisoners whose sentences exceed
21 days, and do not exceed six weeks, or (to speak in accordance with the view of
a progressive dietary which 1 have submitted) alter 2 1 days, and up to six weeks,
one pound of bread, half a pound of potatoes, and two pints of oatmeal gruel.
Then, the fourth dietary would be for periods exceeding six weeks, and not
exceeding four months, or after six weeks and up to four months, one pound
of bread per cUem as before, half a pound of potatoes as before, eight ounces

(37. 16.) 3 N 2 of

468

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

fy . A

Guy, Esq.,

M.B.

7th May 1863.

of oatmeal made into porridge with half a pint of milk, for breakfast ; six
ounces of Indian meal, also with half a pint of milk, for dinner, the potatoes
being added to that meal as well as a part of the bread ; and in that case the
allowance of milk would be at the rate of one pint per diem. The next class,
those exceeding four months and not exceeding one year, or to speak more
correctly, after four months and up to one year, bread as before one pound,
potatoes increased to one pound, oatmeal eight ounces, the same as before :
Indian meal eight ounces, increased from six ounces ; milk as before, one pint
per day ; and then lastly, for the class exceeding one year in the borough and
county prisons, that is to say, after one year until the expiration of their
sentence in those prisons, I should suggest one pound of bread, per diem, as
in the former class, one pound of potatoes, per diem, 10 ounces of oatmeal,
10 ounces of Indian meal, and now one pint and a half of milk. I beg leave
to hand in this Table :

Proposed Dietaries for Couxty and Borough Prisons.

PROPOSED DIETARIES.

REMARKS.

EXISTING DIETARIES,
as recommended by the Home Office.

Per Day.

Per Week.

;' One pound of bread per diem,"j

is the common allowance for pri- '

_son offences ... -J

Bread

Per Day.

Per Week.

Convicted prisoners ;"|
any term not exceeding 7 [•
days ... -J

1 pound

7 pounds.

Bread

I pound -

7 pounds

Oatmeal gruel -

2 pints -

2 pints.

Weekly Total c

f solid food

112 ounces

112 ounces.

Exceeding 7 days ; nofl
exceeding 21 days ; or
after 7 days, and up to 21 j'
days ... -J

Bread
Potatoes -

1 pound -
;t pound -

7 pounds
Sj pounds

r The early introduction of the ]
potato, is recommended on ac- 1
count of its anti-scorbutic pro- 1
perties ... - .-J

Bread

Oatmeal gruel .

lij pounds
2 pints -

lOJ pounds.
2 pints.

Weekly Total c

f solid food

168 ounces

I G8 ounces.

- The addition of 2 pints of oat-~|
meal gruel is deemed sufficient for
this short term. It should be

Bread

1^ pounds

8| pounds.

Exceeding 21 days ; notl
exceeding G weeks ; or (

Bread

1 pound -

7 pounds

Oatmeal gruel -

2 pints -

14 pints.

Pot^itoes -

I pound -

3^ pounds

Potatoes -

4 pounds.

after 21 days, and up to G f
weeks - . - -J

Gruel (oatmeal)

2 pints -

14 pints -

salted and sweetened as in the
.recommended diet - - --

Meat
Soup

0 ounces.
2 pints.

Weekly Total 0

f solid food

1G8 ounces

In this dietary the bread is in^

210 ounces.

excess of the military allowance

Exceeding G weeks ; not
exceeding 4 months ; or

Bread

1 pound -

7 pounds

up to 50 days, by halfa-pound a

Bread

li pounds

10^ pounds.

Potatoes -

i pound -

3i pounds

day ; the half pound of potatoes

Oatmeal gruel -

2 pints -

14 pints.

Oatmeal

8 ounces -

3i pounds

1 does not exist in the military I

Potatoes -

2 pounds.

after G weeks, and up to 4

Tndian mpal —

G ounces -

42 ounces

diet. As a set off to this excess, /

Meat

12 ounces.

months - - - -

Jlilk

1 pint

7 pints -

the Indian meal of the military

diet is reduced fiom 9 to 6 ounces,

and the milk from IJ pint to 1

^pint per diem - - - • '

Soup

3 pints.

Weekly Total c

f solid food

266 ounces

This dietary is in excess of the ^

212 ounces.

penal class diet of Millbank by
4 ounces bread and 8 ounces

Exceeding 4mcnths;not
exceeding lyear; or after
4 months, and up to 1 year

Bread

I pound

7 pounds

Bread

22 ounces

154 ounces.

Potatoes -

1 pound

7 pounds

potatoes per diem ; but it falls

Oatmeal gruel* -

2 pints -

14 pints.

Oatmeal -
Indian meal

8 ounces
8 ounces

56 ounces
56 ounces

' short of it by 2 ounces oatmeal
and 2 ounces Indian meal per diem,

Potatoes. .

Meat.

Soup.

1 pound .

7 pounds
IC ounces.

JlUk

I pint -

7 pints -

and by half a pint of milk per diem.

3 pints.

It would probably prove equally 1

• On three days

Cocoa, 1

^wholesome and nutritious -

of the week.

pint for
thegruel.

Weekly Total of solid food

33G ounces

...

282 ounces.

This diet is in excess of the
penal class diet of Millbank by

Exceeding 1 year; not-
exceeding ?, years ; or after
1 year, till the expiration
of sentence in county and
borough prisons - -■>

Bread

1 pound

7 pounds

4 ounces of bread and 8 ounces

Potatoes -

1 pound

7 pounds

of potatoes, and it reaches the full

Oatmc;tl -

10 ounces

70 ounces

. allowances of that diet in oatmeal,

Indian meal

10 ovincos

70 ounces

1 Indian meal, and milk. It is

Milk

15 pint -

lO.J pints

1 believed to be a wholesome and
1 nutritious diet for men undergoing

hard labour - - - -

Weekly Total

of solid food

364 ounces

Arrangement of Meals in the several Dietaries.-The pound of bread in Class I to be g.ven to the prisoner every morn ng or t« >ce a day, m 8 ounce
rations or three times a dav, in rations of G. G, and 4, for breakfast, dinner, and supper. The potatoes, of course always at dinner. The oatmeal gruel at
breakfak and suprer, as in the recommended diet. The oatme,al, made into porridge with half a pint of m,lk, for breakfast. The Indian meal with
the like Zntitv of milk, at ilinner. In Dietaries 4. 5, and G, the bread to be distributed thus :- Breakfast and dinner. 4 ounces each ; supper
8 ounces. 'But minor details to be left to the authorities of the several prisons. For women, the liquid elements to be as with men, but the solid food less by
one.foarth.

SELECT COMMITTEE OX PRISON DISCIPLINE. 469

I have assumed throughout that there is no meat element in the dietaries, w. A. Guy, Esq.,
With regard to the one ])ound of hread j)er diem, I assume that there can be no i^i-u.

reason why a prisoner for one week should not be put upon one pound of bread ' _

per diem ; for in all prison punishments, both in military prisons and I be- ' ^ ^^
lieve in other prisons, and certainly in convict prisons, that is the punishment
diet of those who are confined for three days in the dark cells ; and one's expe-
rience shows that being already prisoners, and being presumed to have suffered
somewhat from imprisonment, they do go through tlieir three days in the dark
cells upon bread and water without material injury to health. Some men and
some women are continually incurring that punishment ; and recently prisoners
in ISIillbank have been put on bread and water for a week or ten days with im-
punity. I would still further strengthen what 1 have stated in reference to this
first diet, by calhng the attention of the Committee to the cases which we see
frequently at Millbank, of prolonged abstinence. Prisoners who are not of
unsound mind, but who, for objects of their own, pretend to be of unsound
mind, or wish otherwise to make themselves troublesome, will take no food at
all (with the exception of having access to water) for two, three and four days
together, in many instances for five days together ; and, in two instances, one
under my own knowledge, and one which has been reported to me by an officer
whom I can trust, for 10 days. I therefore argue, that if such periods of volun-
tary abstinence are possible, and the prisoner not only survives but is not thrown
into a state of actual disease, but goes back immediately to the ordinary prison
diet, til ere is a fair presumption that every prisoner, unless excused for medical
reasons, may be safely put upon bread and water for that one week. Then,
with regard to the second dietary, namely, that for prisoners after seven days
and up to 21 days : I introduce there the element of half a pound of potatoes ;
and my reason for introducing that in preference to the oatmeal gruel is, that
the potato has been proved to be one of the best anti-scorbutics ; and there-
fore, in the case of such prisoners as might come into prison somewhat below
par, for instance, tramp^, vagrants and mendicants who may have been already
submitted to some dietary difficulties, who may not have had a full supply of food,
it would be safer to introduce early in their dietaries an anti-scorbutic element.
1 should therefore prefer half a pound of potatoes to oatmeal gruel, as the
next addition to be made to the one povmd of bread. On the third dietary, after
21 days, and up to six weeks, I have no other observation to make, but that
I introduce thei'e, by way of somewhat strengthening that diet, the two pints
of oatmeal gruel allowed in the two preceding dietaries in the diet scale recom-
mended by the Home Office. Then on the dietary which applies to prisoners
after six weeks, and up to four months, I would observe that one pound of
bread per day is in excess of the military allowance up to 56 days by half
a pound a day, and that the half ])ounil of potatoes does not exist at all in the
military diet, the absence of the potato element being the defect of that diet.
Some years ago scurvy broke out amongst military prisoners in IMillbank, when
it did not exist amongst other prisoners around them, and, as Dr. Baly clearly
showed, from the omission of this potato element ; but as a set-off to this
excess in the matter of bread and potatoes, I have thought it expedient to
reduce the Indian meal of the military diet from nine ounces to six ounces, and
also the milk from one and a half pint per diem to one pint per diem. Then
with regard to that diet which applies to prisoners after four months and up to
one year, I would observe that the diet which I have suggested is in excess of
the penal class diet of Millbank (of the sufficiency of which, I think we have
had ample evidence), by four ounces of bread and eight ounces of potatoes per
diem. 1 think that this is a sufficient set-off for the extra two ounces of oat-
meal and two ounces of Indian meal and half a pint of milk per diem of that
diet, and 1 think that the new diet would probably prove equally wholesome
and nutritious. Then with regard to the last dietary, which applies to prisoners
alter the expiration of one year's sentence, and for any time which may still
remain to be served in prison, I would observe that the diet which I suggest
is in excess of the penal class diet at Millbank by four ounces of bread and
eight ounces of potatoes per diem, and that it reaches the fuU allowances
of that diet in oatmeal, Indian meal, and milk ; and I believe it to be a
wholesome and nutritious diet, and adapted not only to prisoners who like
our penal class, are shut up without any labour except coir picking, but
also to such prisoners as are undergoing what is usually termed hard labour.
(37. 16.) 3 N 3 I have

4/0 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

W. A. Gut,, £^v, 1 lia^'e added a column to the table, showing the existing dietaries by way o£

M.ii. ' " ' contrast. I propose that the pound of bread in class 1 should be given to the

_ - — prisoners every morning, or twice a day in eight ounce rations, or three times/

7t i,uj ibb3. ^^ (lay in rations of six, six and four 'for breakfast, dinner and supper; the

potatoes of course, always at dinner. Tlie oatmeal gruel at breakfast and

supper. The oatmi-al made into porridge with half a pint of milk for breakfast.

The Indian meal, with the like quantity of milk at dinner. In dietaries, 4, 5 and

6, the bread to be distributed thus :— Breakfast and dinner four ounces each,

supper eight ounces. I propose, when there is only one pint per day, that there

should be no milk with the supper meal, but I suggest that the minor details

should be left to the authorities of the separate prisons. For women, the hquid

elements should be the same as for men, but the solid food should be less

by one-fourth.

530,-,. The potato element forms a very important part of this diet, does
it not .-
It does.

5306. The object, as I understand, being to prevent anything like scurvy ?
That is the object.

5307. In the event of a difficulty occurring with regard to the purchase of
potatoes, what substitute would you recommend ; is there any substitute which
•would be equally good ?

I think that, in the event of a failure of potatoes, it would be desirable
to substitute for the potato, wherever it occurs in the dietaries, a soup which
should contain as much of the vegetable or pot-herb element as can be put into
it, so as to make it a good, nutritious soup, with a certain quantity of meat ;
I think the difficulty of the case is best answered in that way.

5308. Can you put in to the Committee a proposal, with the precise figures,
witli regard to soup, and the element of meat contained in soup, which would
be a substitute for potatoes?

Yes, I could do so.

5309. In the event of a failure of potatoes, is there any other vegetable
which, in your opinion, would hold the same position 1

1 should doubt whether there was any vegetable which could be got at a
cheap rate, that would hold the same position ; onions, if they were cheap,
would partially supply the want of potatoes, and cabbage also, and turnip-tops.

5310. That would only be administered in small quantities r

Yes ; when, the potato failed, any green vegetable which might happen to be
economical, might be given.

531 1. I understand, -also, that the 4th Class represents, as nearly as possiljle,
after the variations which you have described, the same amount of nutrition
which you now have in the diet of prisoners confined in military prisons under
56 days ?

It does pretty nearly, with the exceptions that I have pointed out.

5312. And that the 5th Class, as a whole, is in excess of the penal class diet
at Millbauk ?

It is in excess in some respects, and in defect in others ; it 13 rather in excess,
and fully up to the standard of that diet.

5313. Would you see any objection on the ground of precaution to adding
either in tlie 5lli or in the Oth Class, a pint of soup on every alternate day ?

I see no objection to it ; it would, I think, be quite as desirable as the Indian
meal pudding, and perhaps it would have some advantage over it, because
the soup would contain some of those vegetable elements which it is so impor-
tant that all dietaries should have.

5314. If you added a pint of soup on alternate days, or even on the fourth
or fifth days of the week, in the last class, the Gth Class, would you be prepared
to make that soup a substitute for those other elements which you would cut
out of the diet, or would you think it under any circumstances desirable, as a
precaution and safeguard against ])ossible mischief, to make that addition ?

I should not make tliat addition in any case, but I would substitute it. I

would

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 471

■would give to the prison authorities the option of substituting it for tlie Indian W. A. Guy, Esq.,
meal pudding. *''^'

531,5- Would one pint of soup be a fair equivalent in the 5th Class for eight 7th May 1863.
ounces of Indian meal ? —

I think it would, that is to si\y, for the eight ounces of Indian meal with half
a pint of milk, which makes it into a pudding. The soup should contain at
least three ounces of meat, the onion, and the usual pot-herbs, and I think also
a certain quantity of treacle, and a certain small quantity of vinegar.

53 iG. Would you see any objection to reducing on alternate days the eight
ounces of Indian meal to four ounces, and substituting for the four ounces thus
struck off a pint of soup ?

I would rather substitute the soup wholly for the Indian meal pudding, on
alternate days. I think it would be simpler and better.

53 1 7. Would an ordinary pint of soup, containing only three ounces of meat
be a sufficient substitute for the eight ounces of Indian meal ?

Soup containing three ounces of meat and vegetables, and perhaps thick-
ened with a little oatmeal, and with any bread that may remain over from the
previous day : a souj) so thickened and strengthened, would be, I think, a fair
substitute.

531 8. Would you not entertain any apprehension that this diet might be too
monotonous for the prisoners ?

I do not think it would be too moiiotonous, for the reason that we have very
large experience in Millbank at present, of prisoners who are put upon the
penal class diet consisting of similar elements, and kept upon it for a consi-
derable time as a punishment ; and we know that they do not look upon this
diet as more of a punishment than the ordinary diet of the prison, but frequently
prefer it, and say that they do so.

5319. From your experience, you would not be afraid of any risk of a pri-
soner nauseating his food after a certain time ?

No ; I think there is quite variety enough to prevent that, especially if soup
were introduced in place of Indian meal pudding. At Millbank, the five
ounces of meat every day, and that without exception the same meat, [troves
more nauseating to the prisoner than the Indian meal pudding ; but occasionally
we are called upon to put these penal-class prisoners for a few days on rice
pudding, by way of a change.

5320. Even if the meat came on alternate days ?

If it came on alternate days, of course the monotony would be destroyed by
tlie very fact of alternation.

5321. In your opinion, would four ounces of cooked meat be a fair equivalent
for eight ounces of Indian meal ?

It would be a fair equivalent. I do not say it would be an exact equiva-
lent, but I should be quite satisfied with it.

5322. Would five ounces of meat in the 6th Class be a fair equivalent for
10 ounces of Indian meal ?

I think four ounces would be sufficient, or a tolerably strong soup containing
tliree ounces of meat.

5323. You would not be afraid upon this diet of employing a man at hard
labour at the treadwheel, or the crank, or at shot drill .-

I should not be afraid of doing so.

5324. Even if the allowance of hard labour ran as high as six or even eight
hours a day ?

No ; I should not be afraid of it. At the same time, all new suggestions
require to be tried ; but I am quite certain that we have been too timid in this
matter of diet, and that many of our extravagancies and inconsistencies in diet
have originated out of an extreme and undue timidity.

532.5- Earl of Dticie.] Is this diet one which you recommend, or is it merely
one which you have drawn up in order to show how a diet may be framed
without the meat element in it ?

I have partly drawn it up to show how a diet may be framed without the
(37, 10.) 3 N 4 meat

472 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

W. A. Guy, Etq., meat element in it, but at the same time I should be prepared to recommend it
M-B- for trial.

7th May 1863. 532(). Earl Cat/icaii.j With regard to the cost of milk, do you think that

under some circumstances there might be a difficulty in getting a supply of

milk for a large prison ?

I should think not. The cost of milk is not very great. As supplied at Mill-
bank, the cost of milk is \0d. per gallon, or l^d. per pint ; therefore it is not
an expensive element of diet.

5327. Do you find any difficulty in Millbank in obtaining a sufficient supply
of milk at all seasons of tlie year ?

^Ve never have any difficultv upon that score.

5328. Do you prefer the best white bread or brown bread ?
I should prefer brown bread.

.5329. Do you consider the brown bread more wholesome ?
I consider that in most cases brown bread is more wholesome, and also more
nutritious.

.^3.30. When you speak of the diet of military prisons, are you aware that a
short time ago the surgeons of the Army represented that the diet was not
sufficient, and consequentlj^ the diet was inci'eased ?

Yes; but that was, 1 presume, prior to 1861, when Sir Joshua Jebb issued
his report on military prisons.

5331. Has not the military diet been increased since 1861 ?

I am not aware of any increase in the dietary since 1861. The report
of 1861 refers to the improved scale of diet which had been used in the
military prison at Aldei-shot since 1858, and which was provisionally adopted
for the military prisons on the Home stations in September 1861. For periods
exceeding 56 days, a quantity of meat is introduced into this dietary.

5332. Are you aware that that is the last scale of diet in the mihtary
prison r

I cannot say that of my own knowledge ; I do not know of anything more
recent.

5333. You have referred to militar}^ prisoners, and also to prisoners in county
prisons ; can you state to the Committee what standard of prisoners you would
assume in calculating your table of diet r

I should take that mixed class of prisoners which you have in all civil prisons
without exception, not merely robust prisoners, but men who come in, some
of them in impaired health, some of them scrofulous, some of them consump-
tive, though not perhaps actually labouring under consumption at the time, and
some who come in deformed and evidently weak ; that is to say, less vigorous
and strong than their neighbours. I would take the whole group of prisoners as
they present themselves one with another.

5334. In speaking of military prisons, do you bear in mind that they are
mainly picked and able-bodied men ?

I do bear that in mind ; and I think that a dietary which is suitable to a
soldier, and to such soldiers as 1 myself am constantly seeing at Millbank, is
surely well suited to the average of our pi-isoners, who are not such \'igorous men.

53'35- Chairman.} Have you any other suggestion that you wish to make to
the Committee ?

I would merely wish, in order to complete the statements I have made with
regard to the relative diet of different (^lasses of men, to state, that I find on
taking seven different returns (two returns from London, and the others from
the country), of the dietary of able-bodied male paupers, that the quantity of
solid food of all kinds which they have, amounts to 191 ounces in a week, and
that the dietary recommended for the (-ounty and borough gaols gives an
aggregate of 282 ounces per week, there being a difference of about 91
ounces in the week in favour of the prisoner as against the pauper; the only
difference in favour of tlie j)auper being, that there is a somewhat greater
variety in his dietary ; that is to say, that he has more elements of diet, a few
small things, such as tea, butter, cheese, are given to him, which are not allowed
to a prisoner.

533('. May

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE. 473

5336. May those Poor Law Tables, from which you have compiled that w. A. Guy, Esij-
result, be accepted as fair specimens illustrative of the diet in use in the unions >i.b.
witliin the districts from which they are taken? 7th May 18G3.

Yes, I think so ; they are taken without selection. They were given to me
from the Poor Law Board without selection ; one is from Leighton Buzzard ;
another is from King's Lynn ; another from Bridport ; another from Altrin-
cham ; one from Paddington ; one from St. Olaves, Southwark, and one from
Ashton-under-Lyne.

5337. You have not picked them, with reference to any particular view of
your own, in order to prove anything special r

No ; they were merely such as were given to me at the time, entirely without
selection.

The Witness is directed to withdraw.

[Adjourned.

(37. 16.) 3 0

[ 47i

LIST OF APPENDIX.

Appendix A.

PAGE

Explanation- of Exercises with Heavy Shot, as a means of enforcing a Sentence of Hard
Labour ..-....-.-----. 477

Appendix B.

Paper delivered in by Major WiUiam Fulford, r.a., 17 March 1863 :

Amended Table of Dietaries, County Gaol, Stafford, 1852 ------ 430

Appendix C.

Papers delivered in by William Mnsson, Esq., 17 March 18G3 :

Notice to Prisoners under Sentence of Hard Labour ------- 452

Scale of Crank Labour to be enforced during a Sentence of Imprisonment ■with Hard
Labour ----..----...- 432

Appendix D. •

Return of the Number of Criminal Prisoners committed to the County Gaol and House of
Correction at Reading, during the Years 1853 to 1862, excluding Debtors, but not Re-
examinations ----- -....-.. 434

Return of the Number of Criminal Prisoners committed to the County Graol and House of
Correction at Reading, who have been previouslv committed - - ' - - - - 434

Return of the Number of Vagrants committed to the House of Con-ection at Reading during
the Years 1853 to 1862 -.-... 434

Return of the Number of Cases, and also the Number of Coimty Prisoners prosecuted at
Assizes and Sessions during the Years 1859 to 1862 ------- 434

Employment of Prisoners ------------ 434

Return of the Number of Prisoners in Reading and Abingdon Gaols, omitting Debtors and
Persons under Examination, for the last Ten Years; viz., 18.33 to 1862, inclusive - - 435

Return of Net Charge on County Rates during the same Period - - - . . 455

Dietaries. — County Gaol, Reading, Berks --.. 435

Abstract of Expenditure for County Gaol at Reading, for the Quarter from 20th December
1862 to 20th March 1863 inclusive, 91 days 437

Appendix E.

Papers delivered in by Edward Shepherd, Esq., 21 April 1363 :

Annual Average Number of Criminals committed to the West Riding Prison, Wake-
field, in the Five Years ending 1831, compared with those committed in the Five Years
ending 1861, or 30 Years after ---------- 490

Scale of Diet recommended for all Prisoners in England and Wales, showing the Quan-
tities of Food in Ounces per Week ..-.---.- 490

Appendix F.

Papers delivered in by William Oakley, Esq., 24 April 1363 :

Statement of Weekly Allowance of Diet for Adult Males, according to the Dietary
Tables of 46 Union Workhouses --------- - 491

Statement of Weekly Allowance of Diet for Male Prisoners (on the highest Class),

according to the Dietary Tables of 50 County Gaols ------ 492

Return showing Comparison of Five Years of Treadwheel and Oakum-picking Labour
for Prisoners, with Five Years of useful Employment to a limited Extent - - - 493

(37— App.) 3 0 2

[ 476 ]

Appendix G.

Paper delivered in by William Golden Lumley, Esq., 24 April 1803 :

Letter from Edwin Chadwick, Esq., dated 4tli December 1835, to Boards of Guardians,
enclosing Dietaries ----..-..-.- 494

Appendix H.
Amended Table of Dietaries for Prisoners in Norwich Castle ----.. 498

Appendix I.

Section of the Treadwheel in use in Petworth Gaol, delivered in by W. Linton, Esq., 30 April
1863 ....---.-.-. fulluiuing page 500

Appendix K.

Paper furnished by James Anthony Gardner, Esq. :

Her Majesty's Gaol, Bristol. — Description of a Person giving the Name of A. B. C. - 501

Views of Her Majesty's Gaol Chapel, Bristol, designed and built by the Governor,
Mr. Gardner, who erected the same by the Labour of the Prisoners, and paid the
whole Expense of the Building by the proceeds of their Industry - followmg jiage 502

Appendix L.

Letter from Mr. Charles A. Keene to the Right Hon. the Earl of Carnarvon ... 503

Appendix M.

Paper delivered in by Thomas Harpur Colvill, Esq., 7 May 1863 :

Dietary Table of the House of Correction, Coldbath Fields ----- 504

Appendix N.

Papers furnished by Dr. Edward Smith :

Analysis of Replies ------------- 505

Tabular Analysis of Letters received by Dr. Edward Smith from Governors of County
Gaols, 1858 507

Calculation of the Quantity of nutritive Elements (Carbon and Nitrogen) aflbrded by
the Diet in Military Prisons- - - - - - - - - - -511

Appendix O.

Paper furnished bj- T. H. Colvill, Governor of House of Correction, Coldbath Fields,
12 May 1863:

Return showing the Results of Monthly Weighing of Prisoners who had not been
weighed for Six Months ---....-.-- 512

[ 477 ]

APPENDIX,

Appendix A.

EXPLANATION of Exercises with Heavy Shot, as a means of enforcing a Appendix A.

Sentence of Hard Labour.

The following diagrams show the exercises which have been can-led into effect in the
military prisons in England, and which are to be adopted in all prisons under these regula-
tions in the United Kingdom.

In the colonies, the visitors will exercise their discretion as to the shot exercise being
applicable, or otherwise, to the circumstances.

The disposition of the shot for exercise will depend on the shape of the ground, and the
number of men to be exercised.

As a general rule, there should be an interval of from four to six paces between each, in
order to prevent prisoners, when at exercise, communicating with each other. If, however,
the space is too limited to allow of such an interval, a distance of one pace is sufficient.

The exercise, as far as circumstances permit, is to be continued for an hour and a half
at a time, and repeated with the prescribed intervals, according to the regulations.

If a prisoner falls out for any purpose during shot exercise, he is to be required to make
up the time by remaining ten minutes after the class is dismissed, for every such occasion,
unless it shall be certified by the medical officer, that the state of the prisoner's health
rendered it unavoidable.

As a general rule, the first and second classes will be exercised with 24-lb. shot, and the
third class with 32-lb. shot.

(;J7 — App.) 3 0 3 Explanation

478 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE

Appendix A.

Explanation of Diar/ram and Exercise No. 1.

A is a long narrow pile of 24-lb. or 32-lb. shot, which are to be transferred to B, where
there is a frame to receive them. Besides the shot in the pile, a single shot is placed on
the o-niund, or in a small frame,* at the points 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. The prisoners are arranged,
as shown, facing outwards. On a given word, the two lines glance their eyes to A, to
take the time ; when No. 1 makes the signal hj holding up liis hand, the whole stoop
quickly ; each man takes up the shot in front of him, moving briskly towards the pile B,
till he comes to the spot quitted by the man who was next to him ; he then halts. No. 6 of
each line thus halts at B, and gives the signal, on which the whole place their shot in the
boxes, or on the ground in front of them ; after which they come to the position of atten-
tion. Takinii- the time from No. 6, they then march back to their original positions, ready
to lift another shot on a signal from No. 1, and so on.

Thus, No. 1 takes a shot to where No. 2 stood, whilst No. 2 is taking one to No. 3, each
returning empty-handed to his original position.

In this manner, the whole pile at A is removed, and when the last shot of the pile is
placed at No. 2, the exercise is reversed, and the pile is transferred back from B to A.

Explanation of Diagram and Exercise No. 2.

This exercise may be carried on by two or three ranks placed at four or more paces
apart, all facing inwards.

The movements are made by signal, as before explained, and when the pile to be
removed is exhausted, tlie exercise is reversed, and the shot are carried back again.

Explanation of Diagram and Exercise No. 3.

Small piles of shot may be moved from A to B, and from C to D, and back, each
man working on his own ground, and the distance between the ranks may be from six to
eight jiaces, or as much more as may be convenient.
'Men for this exercise may fall in one or two lines, if more convenient.

Explanation of Diagram and Exercise, No. 4.

The shot may be placed in two lines, or in the form of a rectangle, at equal distances
of from four to six or eight paces apart, and the men fall in, each with a shot in front of
him.f On a given word or signal, each man lifts his shot, and, facing as may be ordered,
moves smartly to the spot which the man next to him quitted ; there he halts, sets down
the shot by signal, and comes up to the position of attention after it.

On the word or signal being given, he again lifts the shot, and moves to the next place,
and so on.

Note. — It will be observed that this exercise is more laborious than the others, from the
men always carrying a shot when they move. It will, therefore, only be enforced in the
military prisons, as a jjunishnicut for a prison oifence, and under particular circumstances ;
the latter to be noticed in the Governor's journal.

Explanation of Diagram and Exercise No. 5.

The shot may be placed as shown in Diagram No. 5 (at equal distances of three, four,
five, or six paces), and the prisoners being aiTanged so that each man has a shot innne-
diatcly in front of him, on a given word, " Pile Shot," each man lifts his shot, and turning
(outwards) about, moves at the regular quick time to the spot from which the man in rear
of him has removed his shot, where he halts, sets down his shot, and then turning (outwards)
about, moves again to his original place, when lie again picks up the shot in front of him.

Thus No. 1 takes his sliotVrom No. 1 (turning to tlie right about) to No. 2, and then
returns (turning to the left about) to take up the shot which No. IG took at the same time
from No. 16 to No. 1.

An odd file may be provided for, as shown by that portion of the Diagram, 16 to 17,
and 1 to 17.

Explanation of Diagram and Exercise No. 6.

The sliot may be placed as shown in Diagram No. 6, where the length of the ground on
which tlie exercise is to be performed is limited.

Tlie exercise will be perCorined as sluiwn in No. 5. Thus, while No. 1 is removing his
shot to No. 2, No. 21 will remove his shot from No. 21 to No. 22, and so on.

An odd file may be ]m)vided for in this exercise, as shown by that portion of the
Diagram, 21 to 22, and 21 lo 23.

* Three shots partly sunk in the ground, form a good tcmporarv bed for receiving the shot.

t Or tlie shot may be placed round the four sides of a square, or in a circle, if more convenient.

REP0RT._PRISON DISCIPLINE

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SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE.

479

Table, showing the Distance each Man must march in moving the Shot.

Appendix A.

Number

of Paces between

the Shot.

Number of

Shot moved in

a Minute.

Number of

Paces, per Hour,

marched

with a Shot.

Number of
Paces marched,

per Hour,
without a Shot.

Whole

Distance marched

the Hour.

1,080

2,160

1,440

2,880

1,200

2,400

1,440

2,880

1,500

3,000

1,800

3,600

Shot exercise may be made more severe, either by increasing the weight of the shot to
32 lbs., or by working, as in Exercise No. 4, the prisoners always having a shot in hand

when moving.

(37— App.)

3 04

480

APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE

Appendis. B.

Appendix B.

PAPER delivered in by Major William Fulford, E.A., 17 March 1863.

AMENDED TABLE of Dietaries, County Gaol, Staffoed, 1852.

Class 1.
Convicted Prisoners confined for any term not exceeding Seven Days.

Males.
Breakfast — Oatmeal gruel
Dinner - Bread
Supper - Oatmeal gruel

1 pint.
- 1 lb.
1 pint.

Females.

Oatmeal gruel -

Bread

Oatmeal gniel -

1 pint.

- 1 lb.

- 1 pint.

Class 2.

Convicted Prisoners for any term exceeding Seven Days, and not exceeding One

Calendar Month.

Males.

Breakfast — Oatmeal gruel - - 1 pint.

Bread - - - 6 oz.

Dinner - Bread - - - 12 oz.

Supper - Oatmeal gruel - - 1 pint.

Bread - - - 6 oz.

Oatmeal gruel -

Bread

Oatmeal gruel

Bread

Females.

1 pint.
6 oz.
6 oz.
1 pint.
6 oz.

Prisoners of this class employed at hard labour to have, in addition, 1 pint of soup
per week.

Class 3.

Convicted Prisoners employed at Hard Labour for terms exceeding One Calendar
Month, but not more than Three Calendar Months; and Convicted Prisoners not
employed at Hard Labour for terms exceeding One Calendar Month, but not more than
Six Calendar Months.

Males.

Females.

Breakfast-

—Oatmeal gruel -

- 1 pint.

Oatmeal gruel - - -

- 1 pint.

Bread

- 6 oz.

Bread - . _ -

- 6 oz.

Monday and Friday.

Dinner -

Soup - . -

- 1 pint.

Soup - _ _ -

1 pint.

Bread

- 8 oz.

Bread - _ - -

- 6 oz.

Sunday and Thursday.

Cooked meat, withoutl „

, r O OZ,

bone - - -J

Cooked meat, without bone

- 3 oz.

Bread

- 8 oz.

Bread _ _ - -

- 6 oz.

Potatoes -

- ^Ib.

Potatoes - - - -

- ilb.

Tuesday, Wednesday, and Saturday.

Bread

- 8 oz. 1 Bread . . - -

- 6 oz.

Potatoes -

- 1 lb. Potatoes - - - -

- 1 lb.

Supper -

Same as breakfast

Same as breakfast.

Class 4.

Convicted Prisoners employed at Hard Labour for terms exceeding Three Calendar
Months, but not mure than Four Calendar Months ; and Convicted Prisoners not
employed at Hard Laliour, for terms exceeding Six Calendar Months.

Males.

Females.

Breakfast-

—Oatmeal ttrucl

- 1 pint.

Oatmeal gruel - - -

- 1 pint

Bread ' -

- 8 oz.

Bread - . _ -

- 6 oz.

Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday.

Dinner -

Cooked meat,
bone

without"! ,,

■ .5 oz.

Cooked meat, without bone

- 3 oz.

Potatoes -

- i 11).

Potatoes - - - -

- Ub.

Bread

- 8 oz.

Bread - _ . -

- G oz.

Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.

Soup

- 1 pint.

Soup - - - .

- 1 pint.

Bread

- 8 oz. '

Bread - - - -

6 oz.

Supper -

Same as breakfast.

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE.

481

Amended Table of Dietakies, Sec. — continued.

Aj)pendix B.

Class 5.

Convicted Prisoners employed at Hard Labour for terms exceeding Four Calendar

Months.

Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday.

Males.

Breakfast — Oatmeal gruel - - 1 pint.

Bread - - - 8 oz.

Dinner - Cooked meat, without! .

bone
Potatoes -
Bread

oz.

- 1 lb.

- 6 oz.

Females.
Oatmeal gruel - - .
Bread - - _ _

Cooked meat, without bone

Potatoes - . . .
Bread - . . .

1 pint,
of flaked

Breakfast — Cocoa

(Made of | oz. _

cocoa, or cocoa nibs, sweet-
ened with f oz. of molasses
or sugar.)

Bread - - - 8 oz.

Sou[) - - - 1 pint.

Potatoes - - - 1 lb.

Bread - - - 6 oz.

Oatmeal gruel - - 1 pint.

Bread - - - 8 oz.

Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.

Cocoa - - - - _
(Made of J oz. of flaked cocoa,
nibs, sweetened with j oz. of
or sugar.)

Dinner -

Supper -

Bread

Souj)

Potatoes

Bread

Oatmeal gruel

Bread

1 pint.
6 oz.

3 oz.

ilb.
6 oz.

1 pint,
or cocoa
molasses

6 oz.
1 puit.
Ub.
6 oz.
1 pint.
6 oz.

Class 6.
Prisoners sentenced by Court to Solitary Confinement.

Males.
The ordinary diet of their respective classes.

Females.
The ordinary diet of their respective classes.

Class 7.

Prisoners for Examination before Trial, and Misdemeanants of the First Division, who do

not maintain themselves.

Males.
The same as Class 4.

Females.
The same as Class 4.

Males.
The same as Class 4.

Class 8.
Destitute Debtors.

Females.
The same as Class 4.

Class 9.

Prisoners under Punishment for Prison Offences, for terms not exceeding Three Days : —

1 lb. of bread per diem.

Prisoners in Close Confinement for Prison Offences, under the Provision of the 42d Section

Breakfast — Gruel

Bread

Dinner - Bread

Supper - Gruel

Bread

Males.

of the Gaol Act.

1 pint.

8 oz.

Gruel
Bread

8 oz.

Bread

1 pint.
8 oz.

Gruel
Bread

Females.

- 1 pint.

- 6 oz.

- 1 pint.

- 6 oz.

Note. — The soup to contain, per pint, 3 oz. of cooked meat without bone (for 4th and
5th Classes), 3 oz. of potatoes, 1 oz. of barley, rice, or oatmeal, and 1 oz. of onions or
leeks, with pepper and salt. The gruel to contain 1 ^ oz. of oatmeal per pint. The gruel,
on alternate days, to be sweetened with f oz. of molasses or sugar, and seasoned with salt.
In seasons when the potato crop has failed, 4 oz. of split peas made into a pudding may be
occasionally substituted ; but the change must not be made more than twice in each week.
Boys under 14 years of age to be placed on the sumo diet as females.

(37— App.)

482

APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE

Appendix C.

PAPERS delivered in by William Musson, Esq., 17 March 1863.

Appendix C. Notice to Prisoners under Sentence of Hard Labour.

Hard labour for nine hours per diem will be enforced upon every prisoner sentenced
to hard labour, and every prisoner so sentenced may be required to perform hard labour
at the crank during the entire period of his sentence.

But in order to encourage habits of willing and steady industry, and of cheerful obedi-
ence, hard labour is so arranged that every prisoner has it in his own power, by his
industry and uniform good conduct to reduce the length of the period for which he will be
required to labour at the crank.

At the commencement, hard labour at the crank will be enforced for eight hours per
diem, with one hour of other hard labour of a different description. The duration of this
period is set forth in the scale below.

Afterwards the crank labour will not l)e enforced for so many hours, the remaining
hours beino- occupied with hard labour of a different description. The duration of these
periods Is also set forth in the scale below.

Prisoners are to remember that the scale of crank labour as laid down in this notice, is
applicable to those prisoners only who exhibit willing industry and uniform good conduct.
And every prisoner misconducting himself will be liable to be kept to crank labour for the
whole term of his sentence.

Any prisoner who may have worked through the periods of crank labour, will by mis-
conduct in any subsequent stage of his imprisonment, render himself liable to be sent back
again to crank labour.

Scale of Ceank Labour to be enforced during a Sentence of Imprisonment with

Hard Labour.

Periods of Crank Labour for a First Commitment.

SENTENCE.

8 Hours
per Diem.

7 Hours
per Diem.

6 Hours
per Diem.

5 Hours
per Diem.

Total
in Weeks.

Total
in Days.

Total
in Hours.

12 Months and upwards

4 weeks -

5 weeks -

102

054

Pcrlodi

3 of Crank Labour for a Second Com

mitment.

SENTENCE.

8 Hours
per Diem.

7 Hours
per Diem.

G Hours
per Diem.

5 Hours
per Diem.

Total
in Weeks.

Total
in Days.

Total
in Hoars.

12_Month8 and upwards -

4 weeks -

7 weeks -

4 weeks.

114

732

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE.

483

Crank Labour. — Number of Cranks, 33.

1,800 Revolutions per Hour ; 14,400 per Day for Adults.

Period of Crank Labour for a First Commitment.

Appendix C.

SENTENCE.

8 Hours
per Diem.

7 Hours
per Diem.

6 Hours
per Diem.

Total
in Weeks.

Total
in Days.

Total
in Hours.

21 days -

14 days -

I month -

3 weeks

144

6 weeks -

2 „

1 week -

174

2 months

2 weeks -

180

3 „

J) 1

1 „

2 weeks •

210

4 „

3 „

222

5 „

•^ J)

3 „

1 week -

258

6 „

2 „

3 „

2 weeks -

294

7 ,,

3 „

3 „ -

330

8 „

2 „

3 „

3 , -

1 week -

360

9 ,,

3 „

3 „ -

2 „ -

390

10 „

2 „

3 ,,

3 „ -

420

11 „

2 „

3 „

3 „ -

4 „ -

450

3 „

3 „ -

5 „ -

480

1,500 Revolutions per Hour ; 12,000 per Day for Juveniles.

Period of Crank Labour for a Second Commitment

SENTENCE.

8 Hours
per Diem.

7 Hours
per Diem.

6 Hours
per Diem.

5 Hours
per Diem.

Total
in Weeks.

Total
in Days.

Total
in Hours.

21 days -

18 days -

_ «

144

1 month -

3 weeks

1 week -

186

6 weeks -

3 „

2 weeks -

228

2 months

4 „

3 „ -

318

3 „

4 „

4 ., -

1 week -

396

4 „

2 weeks -

432

5 „

4 „

4 »

4 „ -

504

6 „

4 „

4 ,.

5 „ -

540

7 „

4 „

G „ -

576

8 „

4 „

7 „ -

612

9 »

4 ,,

4 ,.

7 „ -

1 week -

642

10 „

4 ,,

4 „ -

7 ,, •

2 weeks -

102

672

11 ,.

4 „

7 .. '

3 „ -

108

702

12 „

4 „

4 „ -

7 „ •

4 » -

114

732

(37— App.)

3p2

484

APPE]VDIX TO REPORT FROM THE

Appendix D.

Appendix D. Return of the Number of Criminal Prisoners committed to the County Gaol and
— — House of Correction at Reading, during the following Years, excluding Debtors but

not Re-examinations ; viz.

1853.

1854.

1855.

1856.

1857.

1858.

1859.

1860.

1861.

1862.

711

773

677

645

705

735

597

575

702

760

Return of the Number of Criminal Prisoners committed to the County Gaol and
House of Correction at Reading, who have been previously committed.

1853.

1854.
223

1855.

1856.

1857.

1858.

1859.

1860.

1861.

1862.

205

196

1G6

220

181

153

148

155

173

Return of the Number of Vagrants committed to the House of Correction at Reading

during the following Years; viz.

1853.

1854.

1855.

1856.

1857.

1858.

1859.

1860.

1861.

1862.

113

101

Return of the Number of Cases, and also the Number of County Prisoners prosecuted
at Assizes and Sessions during the following Years.

Year ending Michaelmas 1859
I860
1861
1S62

No. of Cases.

88
64
90
79

In Four ^ ears - - Total -
Duiinn- Four Years, 1845 — 1848, Prosecutions were 655.

No. of Prisoners-

107

368

Employment of Prisoners.

Sweeping cells, makintr beds, &c. - - - - -

Grinding corn, pumping water, mat-making, exercise, &c. &c.
Breakfast and self-instruction in cells - . - -

Chapel

Female school class -------

>Valk for male prisoners ------

School for male prisoners ------

Dinner and self-instruction in cells - - . -

Work, school, and exercise ------

Work, cleaning, school, and exercise - . - -
Work, cleaning, and school ------

Work, cleaning, and exercise - - . - -

Work and cleaning -------

Supper and self-instruction in cells . - - -

F'reparing for bed -------

In bed ---------

Summary.

From

0 A.M.

15 „

45 „

0 „

0 »

0 „

" „

45 „

0 r. M.

0 ,.

<> „

0 ,.

•> »

45 „

" ,.

() 15 A.

7 30 „
9 0 ,.
0 0,]

10 45

11 0
11 45

1 0

2 0

P. M.

0
0
0
40
45
0
0

Work
Chapel -
Exercise
School -

5 hours.
1 ..

Self-instruction in cells

Meals -

Bed - - -

4 hours

SELECT COMMITTEE ON PRISON DISCIPLINE.

485

Appendix D.

Return of the Number of Prisoners in Reading and Abingdon Gaols, omittinjr
Debtors and Persons under Examination, for the last Ten Years; viz., 1853 to 1862,
inclusive.

Prisons.

issa.

1854.

1855.

1856.

1857.

1858.

1859.

1860.

1861.

1862.

Reading . . -
Abingdon - - -

704
295

753
346

661
254

635
221

676
244

716
167

577
126

566
127

694
150

747
16*

Total Prisons - -

999

1,098

915

856

920

882

703

693

844

911

Return of Net Charge on County Rates during the same Period.

Prisons.

1853.

1854.

1855.

1856.

1857.

1858.

1859.

1860.

1801.

1862.

£.

Reading ...

2,036

1,986

1,761

1,687

1,617

1,577

1,701

1,433

1,273

1,380

Abingdon -

831

908

915

765

534

544

439

437

557

524

Total Cost - - £.

2,867

2,984

2,676

2,452

2,151

2,121

2,140

1,870

1,830

1,904

DIETARIES.— County Gaol, Reading, Berks.

Class No. 1.
Conricted Prisoners confined for any term not exceeding Seven Dajs.

Breakfast and Supper •
Dinner

Male.

1 pint of oatmeal gruel -
1 lb. of bread

(u.oidf'V)

Female.

1 pint of oatmeal gruel.
1 lb. of bread.

(U. Ojc/.A)

Class No. 2.
Convicted Prisoners for any term exceeding Seven Days, and not exceeding Twenty-one Days.

Breakfast and Supper
Dinner . . -

Male.

Female.
1 pint of oatmeal gruel, 6 02. of

j"l pint of oatmeal gruel, 6 oz. of

l^ bread. I

ri2 oz. of bread - - - - | 6 oz. of bread.

I 1 pint soup per week, if at hard | 1 pint soup per week, if at hard

' labour. labour.

(Is. 6jcf.)

(\s.H.I.)

(37.— Apr.)

3 p3

486

APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE

Appendix D.

Dietaries. — County Gaol, Reading, Berks — coutmued.

Class No. 3.

Convicted Prisoners employed at Hard Labour for terms exceeding Twenty-one Days, but not more
than Six Weeks ; and Convicted Prisoners not employed at Hard Labour, for terms exceeding
Twenty-one Days, but not more than Four Months.

Breakfast and Supper •
Dinner :

Sunday -

Thursday

Tuesday

Saturday

Monday

Wednesday

Friday -

Male.
1 pint of oatmeal gruel, 6 oz. of bread

} 1 pint of soup, 8 oz. of bread

T 3 oz. cooked meat, without bone,
f 8 oz. bread, and h lb. potatoes.

8oz. of bread, lib. of potatoes
(1». 8irf.)

Female.
1 pint of oatmeal gruel, 6 oz. of bread.

1 pint of soup, G oz. of bread.

3 oz. cooked meat, without bone,
6 oz. bread, and J lb. potatoes.

6 oz. of bread, 1 lb. of potatoes.

(Is. lid.)

Class No. 4.

Convicted Prisoners employed at Hard Labour for terms exceeding Six Weeks, but not more than
Four Months, and Convicted Prisoners not employed at Hard Labour for terms exceeding Four
Months. No. 6, Prisoners sentenced by Court to Solitary Confinement. No. 7, Prisonersfor
Examination before Trial, and Misdemeanants of the first division, who do not maintain them-
selves. No. 8, Destitute. Debtors.

Breakfast and Supper ■
Dinner;

Sunday -

Thursday

Tuesday

Saturday

Monday

Wednesday

Friday -

Male.
1 pint of oatmeal gruel, 8 oz. of bread

3 oz. of cooked meat, without bone
I ^ lb. of potatoes, and 8 oz. of bread

I 1 pint of soup, 8 oz. of bread
(2 s. 2Jrf.)

Female.
1 pint of oatmeal gruel, 6 oz. of bread.

3 oz. of cooked meat, without boiie.
J lb. of potatoes and 6 oz. of bread.

1 pint of soup, G oz. of bread.
(Is. nd.)

Class No. 5.

Convicted Prisoners employed at Hard Labour for terms exceeding Four Months.

Sunday

Tuesday -

Thursday -

Saturday -

Monday

Wednesday

Friday

Male.

Breakfast. — 1 pint of oatmeal gruel,
[ 8 oz. of bread.

[ Dinner. — 4 oz. cooked meat, without
bone, 1 lb. potatoes, G oz. bread.

i Breakfast. — 1 pint of oatmeal gruel,
8 oz. of bread.
Dinner. — 1 pint soup, I lb. potatoes,
G oz, breiid.
Supper, the week, 1 pint gruel, 8 oz.
bread.

(2s. 5rf.)

Female.

Breakfast. — 1 pint of oatmeal gruel,

6 oz. of bread.
Dinner. — 3oz. cooked meat, without

bone, J lb. potatoes, 6 (iz. bread.

Breakfast. — 1 pint of oatmeal gruel,

6 oz. of bread.
Dinner. — 1 pint soup, ^ lb. potatoes,

Goz. bread.
Supper, the week, 1 pint gniel, 6oz.

bread.

(Is. l\^d.)

Class No. 9.
Prisoners in Close Confinement for Prison Offences, under the provision of the 42d section Gaol Act.

Breakfast and Supper -
Dinner - - -

Not exceeding 3 days

Male.

1 pint of gruel, 8 oz. of bread
8 oz. of bread - - -
1 lb. of bread per d.iy -

Female.

1 pint of gruel, 0 oz. of bread,

6 iiz. of bread.

1 lb. of bread per day.

Note. — ^Thesoup to contain, per pint, 3 ounces of cooked meat, without bone, 3 ounces of potatoes,
one ounce of barley, rice, or oatmeal, and 1 ounce of onions or leeks, with pepper and salt. The
gruel to contain 2 ounces of oatmeal per pint, and seasoned with salt. In seasons when the potato
crop has failed, 4 ounces of split peas made info a pudding may be occasionally substituted, but the
change must not be made more than twice in each week. Boys under 14 years of age to be placed
on the same diet as females.

SELECT COMMITTEE 0\ PRISON DISCIPLINE.

487

Easter Sessions, 1863.

ABSTRACT of Expenditure for County Gaol at Reading, for the Quarter from 20th December 1862

to 20tli March 1863 inclusive, 91 days.

Charges oe

Establishment.

Printing and Advertisements, Books,

Salaries of Officers.

Rations.

Stationery, Calendars, &c.

(!•)

(2.)

(3.)

£. 5.

£. s.

£. s. d.

Governor - - -

7.T -

1,780 lbs. of bread, at 4 J rf.l/

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Full text of "Report from the Select Committee on the House of Lords on the Present State of Discipline in Gaols and Houses of Correction : together with the proceedings of the committee, minutes of evidence, and appendix"

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